Podcasts about angela it

Medicine for the Resistance

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 18, 2023 4:01

Todd: So I'm here with Angela, and in a previous interview we were talking about kids and technology and devices, and how these days often people look at their device when they're with another person. How do you feel about that? If you're eating with somebody, you're at dinner, is it okay to check your phone? 托德：我和安吉拉一起在这里，在之前的一次采访中，我们讨论了孩子、技术和设备，以及现在人们在与另一个人在一起时通常如何看待他们的设备。你对这件事有什么感想？如果你和别人一起吃饭，吃饭的时候，可以看一下你的手机吗？Angela: We have a rule in our house, no phones at the table. Absolutely no phones. 安吉拉：我们家有一条规定，桌上不准打电话。绝对没有电话。 Todd: Very nice. 托德：非常好。 Angela: Because you know, you see people, they meet in restaurants, they sit around a table, the food comes, but everybody's looking into their phone, and engaging with whatever they're doing on their phone, and not talking to the people who have met them. And I see people walking on the subway, the street, head in their phone. It's ... 安吉拉：因为你知道，你看到人们在餐馆里见面，他们围坐在桌子旁，食物来了，但每个人都在看他们的手机，并参与他们在手机上所做的任何事情，而不是与人们交谈谁见过他们。我看到人们走在地铁、街上，低头玩手机。它是 ...Todd: It is crazy. 托德：这太疯狂了。 Angela: It's really sad. 安吉拉：真的很难过。 Todd: And if you think about it, we used to have manners. Things you couldn't do. For example, no elbows on the table, no hats inside the house. I mean it sounds silly, but I remember those rules as a kid. The one that was really hard was the no elbows on the table. Yeah, so it's interesting that we don't have new rules, like we should reinvent them. You can't have your phone on during the plane when it takes off, so your rule is a good idea. 托德：如果你想一想，我们过去很有礼貌。你做不到的事情。例如，手肘不得放在桌子上，屋内不得戴帽子。我的意思是这听起来很傻，但我小时候记得这些规则。真正困难的是桌子上没有肘部。是的，有趣的是我们没有新的规则，就像我们应该重新发明它们一样。飞机起飞时您不能打开手机，因此您的规则是个好主意。Angela: Yeah, no phones at the table. 安吉拉：是的，桌上没有电话。 Todd: So you're an English teacher, what do you think about phones in the classroom? 托德：那么你是一名英语老师，你对课堂上的手机有何看法？ Angela: If they're on a break, I always call it their text break, because when I'm teaching English out here I find that people have got their phone to their hand, and maybe they're Googling a word or something, so it's not too much of a distraction. But when you stop them for a break, as soon as you say "let's have a break now," they're all after their phones, and they're sitting individually looking at their phones. 安吉拉：如果他们休息，我总是称其为短信休息，因为当我在这里教英语时，我发现人们手里拿着手机，也许他们正在谷歌搜索某个单词或其他东西，所以这不会造成太多干扰。但当你阻止他们休息时，只要你说“我们现在休息一下吧”，他们就都在追手机，而且他们各自坐着看手机。 Todd: And it's silent, I know what you mean. I'll teach, and it used to be you would say "okay take a break," and it would be really loud, they would start talking with each other. And these days it's just silence, they just go and they do that motion of just flicking with their finger, as they're scrolling down. And I know I just sound like some old guy, "hey, get off my lawn!" And I have the same problem, I want to check my phone all the time, but I have to admit it's strange I think. 托德：而且很安静，我知道你的意思。我会教，过去你会说“好吧，休息一下”，声音会很大，他们会开始互相交谈。如今，一切都很安静，他们只是走过去，在向下滚动时用手指轻弹一下。我知道我听起来就像个老家伙，“嘿，离开我的草坪！” 我也有同样的问题，我想一直检查我的手机，但我不得不承认我认为这很奇怪。 Angela: And now you needn't even check your phone, you just look at your Apple watch or your watch on your wrist, it's going to tell you if your phone needs your attention. 安吉拉：现在你甚至不需要检查你的手机，你只需看看你的 Apple Watch 或手腕上的手表，它就会告诉你你的手机是否需要你的关注。 Todd: But it used to be where I would say things like, you know as a teacher you're teaching, you can see if the student's looking down at their phone, and I would say "hey, don't check your phone." But now these days kids actually call me on it, they're like, "Oh, I'm looking up a word," or "Oh, I'm checking something," and they literally are checking something. And the kids are good at using their phone as a learning tool - 托德：但过去我会说这样的话，你知道，作为一名老师，你正在教学，你可以看到学生是否低头看手机，我会说“嘿，不要检查你的手机。” 但现在，孩子们实际上打电话给我，他们会说，“哦，我正在查找一个单词”，或者“哦，我正在检查一些东西”，他们实际上是在检查一些东西。孩子们很擅长使用手机作为学习工具 - Angela: Yes, I think that's fine. 安吉拉：是的，我认为那还行。Todd: So it is, it's a gray area these days. Yeah. So when you're with somebody you never pop out your phone? 托德：确实如此，现在这是一个灰色地带。是的。那么当你和某人在一起时你从不拿出手机吗？ Angela: I would admit that I will be guilty of checking my phone in my bag, but I would never get it out and go on Facebook or Instagram and start Instagramming, I would just look at it and put it away. 安吉拉：我承认我会因为检查包里的手机而感到内疚，但我永远不会把它拿出来上 Facebook 或 Instagram 并开始 Instagram，我只会看看它然后把它收起来。Todd: Yeah. There's other things I've done, I mean could be because I'm getting older, but for example I try not to listen to my iPod so much anymore, or my phone. Radio, music, whatever. I actually just try to listen. I notice that when I am always listening to everything I kind of tune the world out, and I might miss things. 托德：是的。我还做过其他事情，我的意思是可能是因为我变老了，但例如我尽量不再听我的 iPod 或手机。广播、音乐等等。我其实只是试着听。我注意到，当我总是听所有的东西时，我就会把世界排除在外，而且我可能会错过一些东西。Angela: You will miss things. You see people, I've been quite tempted some days to put my earphones in and walk to the BTS, but actually I think, no, you'd miss the traffic noise, you miss the tuk tuks, you miss a dimension of the world that's happening around you. And then you get on the BTS and everybody in the carriage is head down, same position, on their phones. 安吉拉：你会想念一些事情的。你看，有些天我很想戴上耳机步行去 BTS，但实际上我认为，不，你会错过交通噪音，你会错过嘟嘟车，你会错过地铁的某个维度。你周围发生的世界。然后你上了 BTS，车厢里的每个人都低着头，保持着同样的姿势，拿着手机。 Todd: Yeah. And actually I don't do it just for that reason, because I noticed that I'm missing out. It's so tempting, but I might see something. 托德：是的。事实上，我这样做不仅仅是因为这个原因，因为我注意到我错过了。这太诱人了，但我可能会看到一些东西。

english apple radio phone bts ipods googling manner todd it angela it todd so

202: You Don't Need Our Permission, But...

Homeschool Unrefined

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 5, 2022 30:29

Join us as we talk about all things you should give yourself permission to do in homeschool - change, quit, protect, trust, and say yes. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings: Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription LTWs Maren: Love Hard Angela: Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery Connect with us! Visit our website Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com Complete Episode Transcript [00:00:09] Maren: hi, we're Mar and Angela of homeschool, unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters, together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling. We're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic [00:00:28] Angela: lens. [00:00:30] At Homeschool, unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and BI voices. [00:00:48] Maren: We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:51] Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at home or all your kids are [00:01:00] at school or somewhere in between. Wherever you are on your journey, we are the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are your [00:01:07] Angela: kids. This is episode 2 0 2. [00:01:11] You don't need our permission, but we are gonna talk about five things we should always allow ourselves to do, and then we are gonna end like we always do with our lt. Ws Loving this week. And before we get started, we wanted to let you know if you are listening to this the day it comes out on Monday, then tomorrow, December. [00:01:33] Sixth, we are going to be having our class in Patreon that's gonna be all about how to take a winter break. Mm-hmm. . And that is gonna be at one o'clock central. We'd love to have you there. It's gonna be informal. There's gonna be 30 minutes of us talking live, and then there's gonna be 15 minutes of q and a. [00:01:52] So if you'd like to join us, you can go to pat our Patreon links in the show notes and get set up there. [00:01:57] Maren: Yes. [00:01:59] All [00:02:00] of my kids' favorite classes they've taken have been from out school, which is one of the reasons we're thrilled to have them as a sponsor. We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. [00:02:11] They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their. Connect with diverse peers from around the world and take an active role in leading their learning out. [00:02:33] School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. [00:02:38] Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning free. Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined, and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll [00:02:56] Angela: with the code on. We [00:03:00] love when companies try to teach subjects in new and innovative ways, and that's why we're so excited to introduce you to Night Zookeeper. [00:03:08] Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, then night zookeeper may just be what you're looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills all while having fun at the same time. [00:03:31] Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors and the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. [00:03:50] When you register, they'll get a seven day risk free trial as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. That is a great deal if you ask me. [00:03:59] Maren: [00:04:00] My family has spent so many hours outside and learning about life. If this sounds like your family, you might like Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:04:18] Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschooling families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:04:43] Volume one is available for purchase and volume two is available for presale all profits from this history curriculum. A River of voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. [00:04:57] You can find samples, scope, and [00:05:00] sequences and information about each of their levels online@blossomandroute.com. You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Route. Blossom and has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% [00:05:18] Angela: off your purchase. All right, well, today we are talking about permission and how you don't actually need our permission to do some of the things we're gonna talk about, but we think we have a five different categories of things. [00:05:31] We think that you should allow yourself the permission to. Do when you're homeschooling. Exactly. [00:05:38] Maren: These are things we wanna actually normalize. I think that was like our alternative title, like let's normalize these things, make them so that we don't even have to [00:05:47] Angela: feel like we have to give ourselves permission. [00:05:51] Mm-hmm. , it's just something we do. It's normal. Well, I think like a lot of times the pressures of whatever, you know, the outside world. Yes. [00:06:00] Also, like the pressures you place on yourself mm-hmm. Can be can really like, weigh on you as you are thinking about some of these things. [00:06:08] Maren: Yes. I do think we as homeschoolers often already feel like we're kind of outside of the norm a little bit. Yeah, right. We've, we've, we say this a lot on our podcast, like we have done something kind of going against green homeschooling, . Yeah. It's different, right? [00:06:25] And so sometimes we do feel like, well, we can't go way out. Let's not go [00:06:30] Angela: way out there and do something even. There still has to be some standards. [00:06:33] Maren: We have to have standards. And so let's do the standards that, you know, some of the standards that everybody else does too, right? Like it just feels a little safer. [00:06:41] It feels like it's socially acceptable and so, which is great. I, and I actually think that's okay to do that sometimes too. But I also want [00:06:51] Angela: us [00:06:52] Maren: to. Utilize the freedom we have in, you know, homeschoolers. We get to make decisions. The [00:07:00] reason a lot of times the reason why we, you know, decide to homeschool is so that we can make different choices for our family and we can do things that are healthier and better for our kids [00:07:10] Angela: and for us, more [00:07:12] Maren: personalized. [00:07:13] More personalized mm-hmm. . And yet we sometimes then shrug those choices off because it feels too much at that moment. [00:07:19] Angela: Yes. Yes, definitely. So this, you know, this, we're doing this episode intentionally at the beginning of December because, you know, we're like three months into a school year here. Most of us are taking a holiday break coming up or a winter break. [00:07:34] And so you know, we're thinking about some of these things, but we wanna make sure, you know, if you listen to this in May or February or October, it still applies. Yes, because again, you don't need our permission, but we're telling you that you can do these things. You, you should allow yourself the permission to do these things anytime, [00:07:52] Maren: anytime, anytime. [00:07:54] And, and it's important to think about them anytime, not just during a holiday or a, [00:08:00] you know. You know, a time off or something. Right? Right. It's important to like continue to, this is a living thing, . [00:08:07] Angela: Right. Okay. So the first thing that we wanna give you or that you should give yourself permission to do is change. [00:08:13] And that can be a lot of different things. You can change how you school. You, you are allowed to do this. You are allowed to change the big picture things like going from homeschool to online school. You are allowed to put your kids in online school. Maybe homeschool just isn't working for you right now, or you need a little bit more support or a little bit more guidance. [00:08:33] It is okay to do that. It is also okay to switch from switch in the opposite direction. It is okay. If you are doing online school, it's not working, it's okay to switch to homeschool. It's okay to also put your kids in school. It's okay to also pull your kids from school. Yes, you can. You can do that anytime you feel like it's the right thing [00:08:55] Maren: to do. [00:08:56] And change what's right for each kid. Maybe. I know it's, for me, [00:09:00] I really value making my life easier and I, my goal has always been we're all doing the same thing because when we're all doing the same thing, then I don't have to drive four kids to four [00:09:13] Angela: different places or whatever. But realistically, [00:09:15] Maren: my kids all have different needs. [00:09:17] Mm-hmm. . And so I, we have made changes to Yes. Logistically it's a little bit trickier for us to get to different places. But it is so much [00:09:27] Angela: better for [00:09:28] Maren: everyone, for the whole family when we're all in the place and, and doing the learning [00:09:35] Angela: that works best for all. Right. So you made changes. Yes. And I think that's pretty common. [00:09:42] I would say like when your kids are younger, it's easier for you to do things altogether or all the same. Mm-hmm. . And then as they get older and their specific styles and needs emerge. Right. And, and desires. Like we want to accommodate [00:10:00] that. So that makes sense. [00:10:01] Maren: And even within homeschool, maybe you need to switch co-op. [00:10:05] Fine. It's okay to do that. It's great. I mean, you're, I don't ever think of change as, as negative. It's like you're getting closer and closer to the, you know, you're, you're moving in the right direction. Yeah. You [00:10:19] Angela: know more, now you know more, more about your child and what works or doesn't work in this season or forever, whatever. [00:10:26] And so it is good. It's a change is a. Right. Or maybe you're switching [00:10:31] Maren: from, [00:10:31] More of a, an unschool approach to more direct teaching approach or something like that. Maybe that is just what's right for you or vice versa. Mm-hmm. , you're going to more unschooling because that's how it's working for you right now. [00:10:45] I think that's great. And then also we need to just consider. What's the style that fits your child's needs the most? Mm-hmm. , and this can change over time too, as our kids mature, as their needs change as their interests change as their, as [00:11:00] they are a learning about themselves and, and, you know, in homeschool, you, they really do get to know themselves very well. [00:11:08] They're able to do that. And, and when they're able to verbalize that and. When you know more, you do the thing that works best then, right? And so, right. [00:11:19] Angela: So what is your kid really into, like what are they, what do they do in their free time? What it really excites them? You could just do more of that, right? [00:11:27] If that's, if that what, if that's what would make things like come alive for them. You should allow yourself to do [00:11:34] Maren: that. Right, right, right. And the style, you know, and when I say style, I don't always even mean you know, Active versus, you know, sitting at a table. It could also just be like your child listens to audiobooks or, you know, reads more audio audiobooks than ires. [00:11:53] Mm-hmm. great. Like pick up on that. And, and you can do more of the out your child does [00:12:00] math better on an app? Mm-hmm. than sitting at, you know, doing a book. Great. Mm-hmm. awesome. Pick up on that. My child loves to bake. We spent hours in the kitchen. Mm-hmm. still do . And so I think that that is, that's all learning and that can change. [00:12:19] Like you can make more time [00:12:20] Angela: for that. For sure. Yep. And maybe you have learned that you need to either get out of the house more mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. And go on more adventures. Or maybe you've learned definitely that you've been outta the house too much and you need more time at home. You are allowed to like make your schedule, make your routines right to fit what works for you. [00:12:40] And it's okay to do that mid-year or mm-hmm. a month into the school year or whatever it, you don't have to. Yes. Like stick with something that's not working. [00:12:49] Maren: Exactly. Exactly. Yep. All right. Let's move on to number two. Number two is you can give yourself permission to quit. Yes. Quit a variety of things and in a [00:13:00] variety of ways. [00:13:00] You can quit permanently. Something this is, this is just not for me. It's not happening, not for my kids. You can also quit. So, Indefinitely until we're ready, . Yeah. Yeah. Until we're ready to come back, we're quitting. Mm-hmm. . Yep. [00:13:17] Angela: So I feel like this right now, like we said at the beginning of December, so I'm sure you're thinking of a break probably. [00:13:23] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And, you know, you might be thinking, yeah, we're taking two weeks off, we're taking three weeks off, we're taking a month off. You can, you should allow yourself to do that. You could also allow yourself to, you know, not come back till the end of January. Or whatever works for your family. [00:13:38] However much time you think everyone needs, you are not bound to this outside culture schedule. Yes. That everyone else is bound to . You know, maybe you want to do lots of out outdoor activities right now. That's fine. You can take the time to do that and then come back later for some more structure that you might, yes. [00:13:57] Yep. Yep. If you want that. [00:14:00] [00:14:00] Maren: And quitting I think has a bad. It does. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . It feels like a fail, like failing sometimes in some ways, or it's been deemed that way [00:14:12] Angela: by many people. Just never quitting. Never quitting is a thing. [00:14:15] Maren: Never quit. You need to get rid of that. Right, right. Well, my kids need to learn persistence and how to, you know, work through something hard, which is true. [00:14:22] We get, you know, totally understand that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . And then also there is this, these skills in quitting. Mm-hmm. , like understanding yourself and listening to what you. Making a plan to quit. Like you don't, maybe you don't quit cold Turkey. Like right now, we're not, we're just [00:14:35] Angela: with this, you know, maybe we finish out the semester Yes. [00:14:40] Piano lessons because we've already committed and paid mm-hmm. , but we know at the end of December we're gonna take a break. [00:14:47] Maren: Yep. And Okay. I'm just gonna hear, I'm just gonna tell you a quick personal story. I won't get too detailed, but like, one of my, one of my kids just quit a sport and it was it was, it was really apparent led for a long time. [00:14:59] [00:15:00] Like we were, we were just like so excited for this child to like, join anything. And so we kind of coaxed them into it. They got, they got kinda [00:15:07] Angela: excited for a while. Yep. Yep. [00:15:10] Maren: And then you know, mid-semester, so it wasn't even at the end of anything. But it was just, we could tell it was just not worth the fight anymore. [00:15:20] Mm. It's just not worth the fight. And this child was communicating so well to us why this wasn't working for them. Mm. Yeah. And while we tried to stick it out to the end of the semester, it really didn't, like, the cus benefit wasn't, it just wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't worth it for us. And so we made the decision to stop mid-semester gasp. [00:15:42] I know, but it was the right thing. Yeah. For this child and [00:15:46] Angela: for our family really. I like when you talked about cost benefit. I mean, I don't love that necessarily terminology, but I like that you're saying like, what, what is the cost here for us? Yeah. You know, this child's unhappiness are having to drag them out of [00:16:00] the. [00:16:00] Yeah. Our fighting relationship, [00:16:02] Maren: right. It was causing anxiety to, and it wasn't the kind of anxiety that like, oh, if I overcome this, it's gonna feel so good. It was, if I overcome this, I'm just gonna be bitter at my parents a little bit. Yeah. And we were like, no, this is not worth it. That's actually counterproductive to what we're actually trying to, for sure. [00:16:22] So, [00:16:24] Angela: So good job. Thank you. Okay. Our next category or I don't know, next thing. Mm-hmm. is protect. Our next word is protect. Mm-hmm. , something that you are allowed to do is protect your child's free time. Mm. Mm-hmm. and or screen time . Yes. I think. Coming into winter. We're in winter in North America. [00:16:44] Right. So like coming into winter is a time I think when we instinctually just need a lot of downtime. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. At least I do. Okay. [00:16:54] Maren: Especially in northern in the Northern [00:16:57] Angela: states as I'm watching it. [00:17:00] Snow immensely outside right now. That's all I can think about. [00:17:03] Maren: like I just wanna hibernate. Yes. [00:17:05] Angela: I wanna hibernate. [00:17:06] Yes. And I feel like, so. We are not good at, and I say we like the collective we, and I'm talking about me as well. Mm-hmm. not good at is protecting my kids free time and downtime. Yeah. And I think that is so important and I wish I had done a better job of that when my kids were little. I did get better as they got older. [00:17:23] Oh yeah. But I think that downtime where their minds can wander, they can do the thing they're excited about, they can have a chance to explore new things that they maybe don't know if they're interested in. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. that only happens with. Huge blocks of free time. That's so true. You are allowed to protect that for your child and not cram in all the different subjects. [00:17:47] Exactly. Because are all those different subjects more important than free time? I don't know. I don't think so. Right. And are [00:17:53] Maren: they actually getting learned when you're cramming them in anyway? Yeah. Is the learning actually happening? Mm-hmm. , you're [00:18:00] getting things done. But that does not guarantee any sort of like internal long term learning. [00:18:10] Angela: You're not. That's how I remember a an episode we did like three years ago or four years ago, I don't remember, was about like how we don't choose what our kids. Yes. Make meaning out of or like Yes. Yes. Like we can put the information in front of them. Yep. But we don't get to decide like what stays in their head or what they choose to make meaning from. [00:18:29] Right. That's like something that they're doing or something that happens within them. So just because you're cramming in six subjects or whatever, I'm, I'm not saying you're doing that, that's extreme, but whatever. That doesn't mean that they're learning all of that, but exactly what they're, they are learning when they're at, when they're, when they have. [00:18:46] They are learning because they're choosing what they're doing. They're excited about it, they're into it. They're motivated by it. We know for sure that they're learning that. [00:18:57] Maren: Yep. They, it's the best kind of learning and yeah, it's [00:19:00] the most internal learning and long-term learning. And the only part of that that's tough for parents is that you probably aren't choosing the topic. [00:19:11] But let me tell you, so. Let me give you a peace of mind here. It's not always about the topic. , when it comes to learning the topic is almost irrelevant. It's the practice of learning. The habit of thinking. Mm-hmm. that is happening. Mm-hmm. during that free time. Mm-hmm. , it's the processing. Mm-hmm. , they are learning how to learn. [00:19:35] Mm-hmm. and they are loving it. So they're associating learning. Positive vibes. Positive feelings, for sure. For sure. And so they are going to continue that habit. Mm-hmm. of learning, of asking questions, of figuring out the answer. All these things, they are going to keep doing that the, their rest of their lives. [00:19:56] Mm-hmm. , if they have that time to do it now and they're having [00:20:00] positive experiences. Yes. So give yourself all the credit for all the learning you're you and your kids are doing in their [00:20:08] Angela: free time. Give your kids all the credit. . Yeah. Yeah. I also, I know we briefly touched on it, I wanna say protect screen time and mm-hmm. [00:20:16] I know this is controversial, but I'm just gonna say like, I think. A lot of screen time is really, really valuable and really important. My kids learn a lot through screen time. Mm-hmm. now my kids are older, but I have to say, like my son, for example watches a lot of YouTube videos that are about, I don't even know the category. [00:20:35] Geography. Yeah. Yeah. I think geography. Yes. And like politics happening within the different, like Oh totally. Countries or whatever. This is what he does for hours. He does this for hours. That's amazing because I love to see it. I'm like, yes, yes, yes, you should do that. I am doing it wanting to squander that at all. [00:20:55] Cuz he is deep diving into a subject that is interesting to him and he is learning a [00:21:00] lot by doing those deep dives. Right. I have to [00:21:02] Maren: say my son is doing the same thing really about you. Oh, okay. We should talk about that together. Yeah. Two of 'em, because they probably love to talk about that, so, yeah. [00:21:12] That's great. Yeah. And, and they can, you know, watch YouTube videos together. I think that's so, so great. [00:21:19] Angela: Yeah. I mean, and I do not wanna stop that. I do not wanna put a limit on that and say, oh, you need to turn that up. I know sometimes we need to, but I like, I know that his excitement and passion for this is so great right now. [00:21:32] Yes. And I am not stopping. Totally. [00:21:34] Maren: I also, I wanna piggyback on that. My oldest is learning all about the history of Iran right now. All on her, all on her own, and the, and all of the, the, just the you know, women's rights and all that stuff, just. Just doing all the research all the time on that and comes to us and tells us all these facts and things, and I'm like, that's amazing. [00:21:57] Had we [00:21:57] Angela: limited [00:21:59] Maren: mm-hmm. That [00:22:00] time, it just wouldn't happen. So, you know, it's just amazing. And then I have one child who's just doing art all the time. Mm-hmm. on their screen, on their iPad, just it's art. It's this art app. Pen, you [00:22:12] Angela: know, like [00:22:13] Maren: a mm-hmm. . Yeah. So it's, and it's amazing stuff. It's like amazing stuff. [00:22:19] Yeah. And I just think, well, why, [00:22:21] Angela: why would I like squander that, [00:22:22] Maren: that mm-hmm. excitement for that thing, so. All right. Number four is trust. Trust your gut. Trust your gut on things. Mm-hmm. Trust [00:22:31] Angela: yourself. Mm-hmm. and trust your. Say too. Yes. Yeah. You are allowed to do that because you know, like we always say, you know, you yourself and your family the best, right? [00:22:41] Mm-hmm. , and we know as parents, you have a gut feeling of if a thing is working or not. If we need to do more of something, if we need to do less of something, if we should change something up, like where's the. The excitement for our kids, and you know that, you know that better than any expert, right? Or, you know, grandparent or like friend [00:23:00] who's a teacher. [00:23:00] You, you know that for your kids and your family. You need to trust that. [00:23:05] Maren: Yes, and I think there is like a good. I think it's great to do a little research if you need to or whatever, do what you need to do, but also don't overdo that. Like I think about it when, you know when our kids are sick or something and then we Google something and then, you know, suddenly we think they, you know, have a terminal illness or something because of the Google results. [00:23:24] Yeah, yeah. It just brings us to this very scary place when really our gut instincts is like, you know, I should just, you know, sometimes we have to just listen to our gut and be like, I should just. My child to the doctor or not. Yeah. What it's usually the right thing. Whatever your gut is about that is probably the right thing. [00:23:43] Bring to the doctor or don't, or whatever, you know? Mm-hmm. . And I think, I think it, it's the same thing with homeschooling. Like, just trust your gut. What do you, what do you see and notice and experience with your kids? [00:23:56] Angela: Mm-hmm. , you have so much [00:23:58] Maren: information [00:24:00] that is intangible that nobody [00:24:02] Angela: else will be able [00:24:04] Maren: to. [00:24:05] Will never know those things. Mm-hmm. and only you do . [00:24:09] Angela: Yeah. Trust it for sure. I love that. Mm-hmm. . Okay. Our last one is say yes, you have permission to say yes. I think a lot of times us included talk about saying no and taking stuff off of our plate. And we also want to tell you that you are allowed to add more things or say yes more often when your kids are asking you to, if that is what you want to do. [00:24:35] And if that works for you, you are allowed to do that. You're allowed to. You know, have a fun adventure. One day you're allowed to have a mental health day. You know, you're allowed to play games together that day. You're allowed to do whatever it is that is going to bring joy to your homeschool. [00:24:56] You're allowed to do that. You're allowed to go off for ice cream. You're allowed to get coffee in the morning. [00:25:00] Whatever you need to inject a little passion is what you should. [00:25:05] Maren: Yes. Exactly. And a lot of times your kids will be the ones to let you know. There's something like, mom, can we do this today? [00:25:14] Mm-hmm. , I mean, I would listen to that. Mm-hmm. , maybe it's not a yes, but maybe there's something that you can, that you can say yes to around that. Mm-hmm. . But it might just be a little indicator that there's something that you could do. Yeah. For sure. [00:25:28] Angela: All right. All right. We hope that was, That was kind of, this is like our favorite thing to talk about. [00:25:35] Yeah. We, we could talk forever. We had to coach ourselves to not talk so much. So. Yep. Exactly. Hope that was helpful for you. All right, let's move on to our loving this week. Okay. Marron what? Loving this week. All right. [00:25:48] Maren: I'm loving a movie. It actually came out last. Holiday season, it's called Love Hard. [00:25:54] Okay. It's on Netflix. It is a pretty cheesy romcom, [00:26:00] actually but it is just, it's just such a great movie to sit down, curl up the blanket and enjoy brainless, basically. But it's so much fun, you know, it's like you don't have to think about it at all. You can just like eat it up like candy. [00:26:15] Angela: Mm-hmm. . So this is about, I'm trying to remember, cause I did watch this last year and I loved it. [00:26:20] So if you're looking for a good holiday flick, this could be Yes. The, you know, like comfort flick you wanted? Yes. It, it [00:26:28] Maren: just says it's an la Okay. I'll just read it quick. An LA girl, this is from imdb.com. An LA girl, unlucky in Love falls for an East coast guy on a dating app. Yeah. And decides to surprise him for the holidays. [00:26:40] Only to discover that she's [00:26:42] Angela: been catfished. Yeah, she catfishing. Ok. Yeah. [00:26:46] Maren: Yes. So it's very lighthearted and fun. And actually I just, I enjoyed it probably more this year than I did last year. I watched it again. Awesome. And I watched it with some of my kids. It does say TV A but [00:27:00] I would say it's probably more like PG 13, to be honest. [00:27:03] Yeah. [00:27:03] Angela: It's like a PG 13. That's what it feels like to me. Yeah. There's no like, [00:27:07] Maren: No rated R stuff. No, I wouldn't, I don't think so. There's probably some swearing I would [00:27:12] get. [00:27:12] Angela: I think that's what it's, yeah. Yes. Alright. Thanks for sharing that. All right, Angela, what do you loving this week? I also have a movie, . Okay, great. Love it. This is called Glass Onion, A Knives Out story. Yay. [00:27:26] Yay. So this is basically knives. If you saw knives Out. Wow. Like two years ago, [00:27:32] Maren: Martin, was that two? Oh, you know it's been three. It's been three. It was 2019. Wow. [00:27:37] Angela: Yeah. Okay. Well if you haven't seen the first Knives out, you should definitely see that this is the second Knives out. We sat in the theater with family. [00:27:44] This is perfect. If you have, I would say teens or even. Between and up. Because it's like, it's a murder mystery, right? That's what it is. Mm-hmm. . But it's done in this a really fun, in innovative new way. It's also, okay. So [00:28:00] there's the only continuing character from the first Knives out movie is the Detective Daniel Craig. [00:28:06] He's the same. Okay. Otherwise they have a whole new cast of characters. Wow. And they're all. People, you know. Oh, you know, all kind of coming together. Playing kinda [00:28:16] Maren: the last one [00:28:16] Angela: too. A new funny. Yeah. These funny characters. These like unique characters. This Kate Hudson and Oh, fun. Yeah. You know, . Okay, I should have looked this up. [00:28:26] You know, the guy from Hamilton, the good singer. Okay. You [00:28:30] Maren: know? Yes. Okay. I'm gonna look it up. Oh, Janelle, Moe. Yeah. Is in here. Leslie Oum Jr. [00:28:37] Angela: Leslie oum Jr. [00:28:38] Thank you. Like I knew it term with an L. Yep. Okay. Anyway, and what I liked about it, which I think like could have been done poorly, but they did it right, was they talked about the pandemic. It's like said in the pandemic. That's great. And so there's like funny references to it that we can laugh about a little bit, little bit. [00:28:59] Right. Like [00:28:59] Maren: [00:29:00] fun. Yes, exactly. And we can process through it. Yes. [00:29:02] Angela: Yes. . So I actually, I liked that it was like, it was good to see that . Okay, great. So I think I think it's just a good time. And I heard it's coming to Netflix in like a few weeks [00:29:13] Maren: very soon. Yeah. It was just out in theaters for a short time, so I'm glad you got to see it. [00:29:17] We really wanted to, but it didn't work out. So I'm really looking forward to this. [00:29:21] Angela: All right. Thank you everybody for being here. [00:29:23] Thank you to our three sponsors, blossom and Ru Out School and Night Zoo Zookeeper. Be sure to check out their links in our show notes. [00:29:31] Maren: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Sizer and Marrin Goerss. . We are listeners supported to get extra content and the Back to School Summit free with your membership. Go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive booklist@homeschoolunrefined.com slash new. [00:29:55] You can find Mar on Instagram at unrefined and at Always [00:30:00] Learning with Mar. Find Angela at Unrefined. Angela. [00:30:04]

love netflix learning trust google school fall holiday playing lgbtq loving positive north america explore east turkey iran hamilton quit snow active root ipads route permission piano pg countries northern bi knives geography sixth mm utilize hs knives out blossom glass onion empathetic cuz indefinitely marron logistically unrefined angela you angela it night zookeeper

199: Let's Hear It For Quirky Kids

Homeschool Unrefined

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 7, 2022 29:03

Join us as we talk all about quirky kids - what they are, what's great about them and how we can encourage them. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings: Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription LTWs Maren: This American Life Episode #783: Kids These Days Angela: I'm Glad My Mom Died by Jeanette McCurdy Connect with us! Visit our website Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com Complete Episode Transcript [00:00:10] Maren: hi, we're Maren and Angela of homeschool, unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters. Together with our master's degree and 20 years combined homeschooling. We are here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:31] Angela: At Homeschool, Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourselves credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to and elevating lgbtq plus and bipo voices. [00:00:50] Maren: We are here to encourage and support you whether you are a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at [00:01:00] home, or all your kids are in school, or somewhere in between. [00:01:03] Wherever you are on your journey, we're the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are [00:01:09] Angela: your. This is episode 1 99, Quirky Kids. We're gonna talk all about quirky kids and why that's a good thing and how to foster it, and then we are gonna end like we always do with our l t Ws Loving this week. [00:01:24] Maren: All right everyone. We wanted to give a big announcement. We have unlocked our Patreon class series, what we don't do, and we're so, so excited about it. So this is just for our Patreon Super Squad members. We do monthly live classes, and our new class series is called What We Don't Do The first class is sitting on for long for lessons and we just finished that class and it was really wonderful you, if you join our Patreon Super Squad today. [00:01:52] You're going to get that class immediately. It's available. It was live, and you'll get it immediately. And then you'll continue to get [00:02:00] li one live class per month. And the recording of that class? [00:02:04] Angela: Yes. And the next class after that is about winter break. Mm-hmm. between [00:02:10] Maren: everybody will be thinking of probably in December. Important? Yes, definitely. [00:02:14] If you've listened to our [00:02:15] Angela: podcast, you know, we are passionate about outsourcing. [00:02:18] In Homeschool Out school has been one of our favorite ways to outsource. We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their interests, connect with diverse peers from around the world, and take an active. [00:02:43] In leading their Learning Out school has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family, and join us as we set learning free. Sign up today at [00:03:00] Out Schooler dome slash homeschool unrefined, and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with a code unrefined. [00:03:09] Maren: Angela and I both love creative ways to teach reading and writing, and that's why we're excited to introduce you to Night Zookeeper. Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may be just what you're looking for. [00:03:27] Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 that uses a gamified and creative approach. To keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills, all while having fun at the same time. Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors, and the super safe community page where children can work with each other and learn together. [00:03:58] If Night Zookeeper sounds like the [00:04:00] perfect learning PR program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show. When you register, you'll get a seven day risk free trial as well as a huge 50% off annual subscription. That's a great deal if you ask me. [00:04:17] Angela: If you've been around a while, you know we are picky about curriculum and that's why we are excited to partner with Blossom and Rut. [00:04:24] Blossom and Rut is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. Blossom and Rut has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschool families around the globe since 2016. Blossom. And Rhett currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the. [00:04:46] Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. Volume one is available for purchase and volume two is available on presale All [00:05:00] profits from this history curriculum. A River of Voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. [00:05:07] You can find samples with scope and sequences and information about each of their levels online at Blossom and Rhett dot. You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Ru Blossom and Writ has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your purchase. [00:05:29] Maren: All right, Angela, let's dive into our main topic today, which is quirky kids. [00:05:34] Angela: Yeah. I'm excited to talk [00:05:35] Maren: about this. Very excited because I think, I think you and I agree, having quirky kids is one of the greatest. Things that could, I think, that could come out of homeschool. [00:05:46] Angela: What do you think? Yeah. Yes, for [00:05:48] Maren: sure. [00:05:48] We love having quirky kids. I think they're a gift to the world. And it feels, it feels like, you know, you are really getting authenticity for [00:06:00] sure when you, when you see the corino come out of kids. People in general, [00:06:05] Angela: for sure. Right. Yeah. Let's talk about what quirky kids are, because I feel like this is a word that maybe gets thrown out a lot and people have different definitions. [00:06:12] Right. But what we're talking about when we talk about quirky kids is kids who follow their interests Mm mm-hmm. and are confident in what they love. [00:06:21] Maren: Yeah. And they're really just, like you said, a confident and really just okay. Being themselves, like happy to be who they are. Mm-hmm. Accepting and accepting of other people too. [00:06:33] I think it, it just kind of goes along with that as well. [00:06:36] Angela: For sure. For sure. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And they're not much paying attention to, you know, the out necessarily what other people are saying. They've got the they've got the freedom to follow their interests because they're homeschooling and they've got the freedom to just be gen, just be genuine and authentically who they are. [00:06:57] Right? And I just think that is a real gift that [00:07:00] comes outta homeschooling. I mean, Obviously there are quirky cut kids who go to traditional school as well. Right. And I think that's great too. But I think in homeschool your, your quirkiness can really shine . I think it's safe in a way that it can't Yes. [00:07:15] In [00:07:16] Maren: public school. Yes. Yeah. It's safe at home. I mean, it's safe to do it. I think there is a little bit, it feels a little bit unsafe when you're around people who maybe aren't as accept. [00:07:27] Angela: Right. All those, or you're afraid might judge you for your union [00:07:31] Maren: interest. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And yeah, so we love that our kids show [00:07:37] Angela: their quirky side. [00:07:38] Maren: And it could be maybe they're like super interested in something that they, and [00:07:43] Angela: they're, they show it up to everyone or or they [00:07:46] Maren: just get into it or they just get into it. And I think it's just like an unapologetic love for whatever. Yeah. I think that's so great. And this can en encompass, I think, neuro divergent and neurotypical kids. [00:07:56] I think sometimes it, there's this label that it's a, [00:08:00] you know, maybe this, there's neuro divergence and I don't think that's always the case. I think a lot of times it's not. Yeah. [00:08:06] Angela: It can be, it, it is. I mean, I think a lot of neuro divergent kids are quirky for sure. But then so are a lot of neurotypical kids. [00:08:13] Absolutely. [00:08:14] Maren: Absolutely. Yeah. So we're talking about all [00:08:17] Angela: kids for sure. So why do you think Marron, that it's good? Mm-hmm. to have quirky kids, especially when they're [00:08:26] Maren: younger. Okay. Let's start with when they're younger because I , I think kids. Into the habit when they're younger, they get into the habit of being themselves. [00:08:35] Yes. It normalizes being unique. Mm-hmm. It celebrates being unique. Mm-hmm. . Being different and having different interests than your friends is the norm. It's just what? It's, it's life. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And I think once you get into that habit, and that's your reality when you're a kid mm-hmm. then growing up, it [00:09:00] feels a little, it feels a little [00:09:02] Angela: off if it's [00:09:03] Maren: not like that. [00:09:04] And so I like that our kids grow up expecting that everybody's gonna be d. And you need, And I think it creates an acceptance of a variety, not just quirkiness, but I mean any kind of Yeah. Difference diversity. Mm-hmm. of any sort. Like there is just like this understanding that we are all different mm-hmm. [00:09:26] and we appreciate [00:09:28] Angela: differences. Yes. And I really like that. I love that too. I think I think it's joyful to see kids when they are young. Being an old, but we're talking about young kids. Yeah. Being into what they're really into. I mean, it is, I don't know. I mean, I know that I've seen my own kids and other kids. [00:09:47] Mm-hmm. excitedly. Tell me about the thing that they're into or excitedly tell whoever is willing to listen about the thing that they're into and that is So special at a young age and something that sometimes [00:10:00] gets squashed as kids get older. But you're right, if we can normalize it and expect it, Yeah. [00:10:07] Then if they aren't doing that, maybe it will feel off to them. [00:10:11] Maren: I also, I also think, yes, like you said, it's, it's brings this joy, it spreads this joy, and that is like this love. Learning. I would, I would call it learning. Mm-hmm. , it's living, you know? Yeah, yeah. And it's contagious, I think. I think it's contagious. [00:10:29] So when, when kids are cookie, they're just really in their zone or whatever, and they're spreading this joy, it's just that is priceless. And I don't know. Just having that experience is, is, is so powerful. It's so powerful. It's so good for us. It's good for us as adults to be influenced [00:10:46] Angela: by that . Oh yes, for sure. [00:10:49] Because that is Well, I'll just speak for myself. Mm-hmm. , I mean, that has been, you know, what's the word? Like Kind of drummed out of me as I [00:11:00] as I age. Right. Okay. Yeah. , Go ahead. I mean, so like, I mean, at least when I was a kid mm-hmm. , there were a few categories of things that were acceptable to be interested in or that were presented as possible interest, you know? [00:11:14] Right. Not that it was even acceptable or not, but that just like I knew about things I knew about that you could be interested in mm-hmm. . And so I don't know that I've really developed my quirkiness Yeah. Yeah. Until I've gotten older. Yep. Really. And like been okay. It's been okay with whatever it is. [00:11:32] Yep. And so true calling things weird or different or guilty pleasures or whatever, I don't know, but just like accepting of who, what things you're really into. Well, [00:11:44] Maren: I think there is a point too, even now, like we, we know this, we know being, you know, having this quirkiness is so good and you, and we love the uniqueness, but I think what even today, like there is a. [00:11:57] Quirkiness when kids are little. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . [00:12:00] And then at some point we [00:12:02] Angela: start to [00:12:04] Maren: not get excited about their quirkiness. Now we need to like, let's be done with all it in whatever, reign it in. And now you have to like kind of get in line a little bit. So why do you think it's, why, why is it good for older kids to also have [00:12:20] Angela: this quirkiness? [00:12:21] Well, okay, I'm, I think because then they are, First of all, being themselves. I mean, that is so important that everybody feels comfort, comfortable being themselves, right? Yes. Liking what you like, liking, knowing what you're interested in. Mm-hmm. , I think just knowing the things that are exciting to you. [00:12:40] Mm-hmm. knowing that when you're older, like let's say a teen I think is priceless. I think that's priceless. Because otherwise, You know, I just think it makes you more confident. I think it makes you know more about, and I hate to always make this the end goal, but like, what you [00:13:00] wanna do in the future. [00:13:00] Mm-hmm. . And that's not the end goal, but you know, like yeah. What kind of job might be interesting to you? I think it's, it's easier. What kind of things do I wanna study? Do I wanna take classes about a certain thing? You know? I think it's easier. Be confident and know what those things are. Yes. [00:13:17] Instead of being more lost. [00:13:19] Maren: Well, I wouldn't even say it, Angela. I don't think it's necessarily an end goal. I think what you're saying is just like we do spend a lot of time at our jobs , you know, when we're an adult. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and it would be great to hone in on something that you. You know, is, is really in line with your values and your interests and your skills and, and your experiences and things like that. [00:13:42] And it, it might not be permanent. You know, we know, we know that many people switch jobs [00:13:48] Angela: and careers throughout their, their lives. [00:13:50] Maren: So it's not necessarily [00:13:51] an [00:13:51] Angela: ending, but it is, like, there are, [00:13:53] Maren: you know, there's a, certainly a commitment level, you know, to jobs. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So I think it's, we know, we [00:14:00] know how much, you know, our jobs. [00:14:03] Have influenced us and, you know, affected us. And so it's so good to know to even get close closer Yeah. To something that you, you wanna do. Ah, it's so good. So just to, to have that self knowledge and awareness is so, so [00:14:20] Angela: key, right? Mm-hmm. . And I think, I think what I meant by. Not making it the end. Mm. It's just that like, I know so many adult, well mean well meaning adults. [00:14:32] Mm-hmm. , you know, put pressure on kids from the time that they're little Yes. To, and asking them like, What do you wanna do when you grow up like this? [00:14:40] Maren: What do you wanna do with your life? Yeah. You know? Yeah. From kindergarten. Yes. What's, what do you wanna do? A job. [00:14:46] Angela: Yeah. Right. It's a lot. So so I guess that's what I meant. [00:14:49] Yes. But you're right. I know. It is, it is important because your job is a lot of your life when you're older. So, [00:14:56] Maren: I mean, and, and when you are, when you're a teen, you [00:15:00] really are thinking about that. You know, it's not like Yeah. Not like a, you know, a far off thing, like from when you are in preschooler mm-hmm. [00:15:07] it's like, no, I mean, this isn't a. I gotta think about this. Yeah. I should, I should be thinking and planning. Right? But I also think it affects your whole life in that way too. It's like you get to kind of curate this life that works best for you too. It's not even just doing what you like, but like having the habits that work best for the way your brain works. [00:15:28] It's all so good, and [00:15:30] Angela: I think that knowing the way that you learn, knowing the way [00:15:32] Maren: that you learn, knowing the way you, that you organize, knowing the way that you know, you need to set up your, I don't know, set up your kitchen . They're just, or just set up your life. Set up your life friends. These are the type of friends that you know, help me thrive in my life. [00:15:49] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . These are some of the things that I just, you know, need to have in place. Those are all things that like, I think help when you are fostering this, you know, quirkiness in your kids. [00:15:59] Angela: For sure. [00:16:00] For sure. Yeah. I also think definitely. You know, in the teen years. Mm-hmm. friends are important. [00:16:06] Peers are important, Yes. And I just think if, if your child is comfortable with themselves and with their unique interests and who they are, I think that has such a positive effect on the other kids around them. Absolutely. Do you see somebody being themselves? It is so inspiring. Yeah. It's, to me for sure, like I see somebody into something cool that I hadn't, you know, Thought about before or just being unapologetically themselves. [00:16:36] Yeah. I feel so inspired to do that myself. Yes, yes, yes. So I think that's really, really key. And to find friends [00:16:45] Maren: who accept, accept each other for their quirkiness. . Right. That is, that's so, that's so key too. And that like, kind of goes back that we talked about how important it is, you know, it's how great it is that our kids are, you know, so unique and quirky when they're young, [00:17:00] so that when they're older they're like, Hey, like if there is a friendship that's happening and there isn't that acceptance or something's off, then they feel that they're like, This doesn't feel right because mm-hmm. [00:17:09] I'm just, you know, I am, I am this person. If you don't like it, then that's, there's something. You're not accepting about me or whatever. And there can be dialogue about that, but it's good to understand. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. [00:17:21] Angela: So, So, okay. How do you think we should foster quirkiness in kids? [00:17:26] That's a big question. [00:17:28] Yeah. I wanna say, first off, I think if you're homeschooling, if you're listening to this and you're homeschooling, I think you're already probably doing it. You know, I mean, I think homeschooling in and of itself is helpful in that way because everything is kind of personalized already, probably are you know, gearing things towards their interests. [00:17:46] They probably have time to their interest. , they have time for the things that they're interested in. Yep. And so I think you're probably already doing it. [00:17:54] Maren: Yes. Yes. That is so true. Yeah. I was just gonna say, I think that was like, I think that's the [00:18:00] biggest thing that contributed, you know, for my kids is just time to be themselves. [00:18:07] Time to play they way, the way they wanted to play and just [00:18:11] Angela: grow [00:18:12] Maren: their pretend world. You know, and, and without without constraint. [00:18:19] Angela: for so long, I hadn't thought about that, but time. Mm-hmm. , you're right, because kids when they're in school are so busy. They are so busy with school, you know, during the day and homework and then fitting in other activities. [00:18:33] That, and family time and sleep and homework. Yes. It's just, it's hard to really develop your interests. When you're [00:18:40] Maren: in school and it's, Yes. And it's not just a practical thing. It's not, It's not just the time, but it, the time is communicating, I think, to the kids. Mm-hmm. , the most important thing for you to do is to do the things that the adults are telling you to do all day long, you know, or whatever. [00:18:57] Mm-hmm. , that's the important thing. [00:19:00] Prioritize that. Yeah. Don't prioritize your own interests and who you are as a person. Mm-hmm. . And I think that that is a mistake. Yeah. We need to communicate with our time. Mm-hmm. our priorities. [00:19:14] Angela: Yes. And [00:19:15] Maren: so for our, you know, our priorities, for me, my priorities for our kids was to be themselves, be creative. [00:19:24] Mm-hmm. , love learning. Mm-hmm. , enjoy the way they love learning, and be curious and just go down rabbit holes. And they did that. They did that. Yeah. And it was so good. I will say when my kids were younger and they were doing that, I, of course, You know, a wrestling match in my head every day. Like, Oh my gosh, we're not getting to all these other things. [00:19:47] Angela: Yeah, we should be doing math, we should be doing reading or whatever. [00:19:50] Maren: Yes, we try every single day. Yeah, every single day. I remember honestly like standing in the middle of my living room looking around at just the [00:20:00] chaos or around me going, I'm never gonna be able to wrangle this in. Yeah. But, and, and then also thinking like, why do I think I need to. [00:20:09] And so I don't know. [00:20:10] Angela: Now looking at wrestling, is that lately mm-hmm. , right? [00:20:13] Maren: Yes. And so looking back, I'm just so glad that a lot of the time I open the space up for that Right. Space and time for that. Right, [00:20:20] Angela: Right. So it's mostly encouraging those things that they're interested in instead of mm-hmm. [00:20:26] You know, diminishing them or whatever. Yes. Instead of suggesting other things, instead of prioritizing other things. Really encouraging those things that they're interested in. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , whatever [00:20:35] Maren: that is. Yep. And then the other thing I think that's really important is to just own our own quirkiness. [00:20:41] Like you said, Angela, you're learning about your own quirkiness right now. And, and like, Kind of growing into that, and I think that that's so good for our kids to see too. It [00:20:51] Angela: is definitely [00:20:52] Maren: a unique set of interests and [00:20:54] Angela: skills too. Right? And sharing that with your kids and sharing your own journey [00:21:00] in that way. [00:21:00] Yes. And yeah, I think is really, really important because, you know, most things are about modeling and I mm-hmm. , I, mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. It is, like I said, because I'm kind of, I feel like late to the game in this way. Mm-hmm. , I mean, I've definitely always had interest, but you know, some things I felt embarrassed about or Mm. [00:21:19] Kind of squashed, or like, I don't, actually, mostly it was like, I didn't feel like I had a wide variety of things to pick from for interest. It's like, well, do you wanna do a sport or music or both . Right, right, right. [00:21:32] Maren: You know? And there was a limited amount of music amount of those. Of both. Yeah. Yeah. So it was either, Volleyball, basketball or stop Yeah. [00:21:41] For me, you know which of those three. [00:21:44] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. So I think learning about the, the world and just like how many options there are and like testing things out and I just, for me, that's like a lifelong practice and yes, [00:22:00] the sooner my kids can get started on. And finding their own joys, I just think the better off they're gonna be. [00:22:06] And so I really do want to encourage and model that for them. For [00:22:11] Maren: sure. And even if, even if our kids do choose a very maybe traditional career, I think that's great. Yeah. And they can have. They will, I think, value interests outside of their job too, which is just so healthy and you know, having a way to, to balance [00:22:30] Angela: your life out. [00:22:31] Having a full life that's having a full life more than just your job, but you also have other [00:22:35] Maren: Yes, exactly. Yeah, and you're right, like you said, example is so powerful just mm-hmm. . Watching your parents have those quirky interests is probably more powerful than anything else. Anything else, Right? For sure. [00:22:50] What's your quirky thing? I don't know. I mean I, I'm, I'm kind of figuring that myself out too. I mean, I have a lot of, I have a lot of interests, you know, I love doing. A lot of [00:23:00] different things, but like recently, like I think I, I think I talked about this on Patreon, maybe not on the main podcast, but in our Facebook, you know, by nothing group, we, Oh, there was a free. [00:23:12] Organ. Yeah. Somebody was giving away a free organ and I took it . Yeah. Right away. That's quirky. It's amazing. That is [00:23:20] Angela: quirky. I didn't think [00:23:21] Maren: about it at the time, but I was like, Oh, that was okay. I look back and I'm like, Yeah, that was pretty quirky. That's yeah, so, because I love, I love the [00:23:30] Angela: organ . Have you been playing it? [00:23:33] A little bit. A little bit, Yeah. [00:23:34] Maren: And we're, you know, the kids are enjoying it a lot for sure. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. [00:23:39] Angela: All right, let's move on to our lt. Ws Loving this week, right? Yes. Yeah. Mar, what are you loving? [00:23:45] Maren: Okay. I am loving it's a podcast that I listen to all the time, this American Life. Oh, yeah. Which I know I, I talk about, I've, I've shared several episodes with you, Angela, lately, but this last [00:23:57] Angela: one. [00:23:58] Okay, [00:23:58] Maren: let's hear. Everybody needs to [00:24:00] listen. It's number 783 Kids these days. Is what it's called. Oh, okay. And the description says, we hear from kids who are dealing with some of the country's most contentious debates. Oh. No debates that are supposedly about them. Mm. So it's just these kids who are caught in, you know, adult turmoil. [00:24:24] For sure. Yeah. Basically. And I am, I mean, I know you all probably. You know, if you're listening to this podcast you know, have a heart for kids and are thinking about just the things that kids are dealing with these days, and this is these are just personal stories about those things and Okay, [00:24:41] Angela: everybody needs to listen to it. [00:24:43] Okay. I would, I would love to listen to that. I'm gonna put that on my list in my queue. I'm gonna put it in my queue. Yep. Put it in your queue. Will appreciate it. Definitely. Okay. Thank you. Right. This American Life has been around for years before they had podcast apps and that's why they're on episode like 700 and something. [00:24:59] That's [00:25:00] right's. It is like the first podcast. Yeah. Yeah. That's really well done. [00:25:03] Maren: So it's really well done and I think it's becoming a much more inclusive podcast, like the stories that they're sharing. Okay. I'm just really appreciating them. Noticing it more and more. Yeah. Yes. From the lens of many, many different people in the world. [00:25:18] I'm right [00:25:19] Angela: in America, . That's great. That's great. All right, Angela, what are you loving this week? Okay. I am loving a book that this could be the book, like if you are in a slump, if you don't know if you like audio books. Okay. Or, you know, you've never tried or wonder if you could get hooked. I think this could be your book. [00:25:41] It's called, I'm Glad My Mom Died by Jeanette McCarty. Okay. Yes, I've heard of this book. We've heard of this book. Yes. Okay, so this is a memoir. But it's very it'll take you in right away. So Jeanette McCarty is a young actress. She's probably 30 now. Okay. [00:26:00] She was on I, Carly. Oh yes. A Nickelodeon. As a young, as a young child. Mm-hmm. . And this is just her life story, which is pretty traumatic. You know, she didn't want to go into acting, but her mom wanted her to, cuz it was her mom's dream that her mom. [00:26:19] Got fulfilled for herself. Mm-hmm. . So her mom put, you know, pushed her into acting and Jeanette wanted to please her mother because she loves her mother. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . it is about that relationship and it is about her, you know, life in the spotlight and with her mother. and with her brothers and her mom is sick the whole time. [00:26:40] Mm-hmm. , I mean, it's in the title. I'm glad my mom died, so, you know, her mom dies, but no, spoil mom was sick. Yeah, no spoiler. Her mom is sick, you know, for much of her childhood. Mm. And so there's always kind of the threat of like, is her mom gonna die? And so she wants to really please her mom. So anyways, it is so well written. [00:26:59] Wow. [00:27:00] It is so well written. The audio is amazing. She reads it. By the, the first sentence, , you know, for the first story I was hooked. I was like, I need listening to this. So I think, you know, as a parent too mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . It definitely It's just a, it's just a cautious, a cautionary tale, you know? [00:27:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a cautionary tale as a parent. Mm-hmm. , not that I'm like her mom, but you know, I just recognize just some behaviors or practices and I, I like, I, you know, am constantly thinking like, Oh, I do not wanna do that, or I would never wanna say that, or, or whatever. So, I don't know. I just think as a parent, it was really, It was important as a child that was imp It was important. [00:27:40] It's important for everybody. So yes, really well done. [00:27:43] Maren: Okay, [00:27:44] Angela: So you should listen, I think you should just get it on Libro fm, which I talked about a few weeks ago. Yes, it's a, or the library. Get it on your library, but listen on audio for sure. [00:27:56] Maren: All right. Thank you Angela. And thank you to our three [00:28:00] sponsors, Blossom and Root Out School and Night Zookeeper. [00:28:04] Be sure to check out their links in our show notes. [00:28:08] Angela: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Se and Marron Gors. We are listener supported. To get extra content and the Back to School Summit free with your membership, go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive booklist@homeschoolunrefined.com slash newsletter. [00:28:29] You can find on Instagram at unrefined and at always learning with you can find Angela. Unrefined, Angela. [00:29:00]

america time learning kids pr space fall explore watching voices accepting nickelodeon prioritize libro mm organ volleyball hs noticing blossom peers liking quirky this american life empathetic rut american life writ marron what we don i'm glad my mom died unrefined jeanette mccurdy angela it night zookeeper

194: How We Homeschool With Camille Kirksey

Homeschool Unrefined

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 3, 2022 46:27

Join us today as we have a conversation with Camille Kirksey, the Intuitive Homeschooler, about what her homeschool life looks like. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings: Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription LTWs Maren: Magnetic Card Wallet Holder Angela: Dry Erase White Board Sheets Connect with us! Visit our website Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com Complete Episode Transcript [00:00:00] Angela: [00:00:09] Hi, we're Maren and Angela of homeschool unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends. Teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters. Together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling, we're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:30] Maren: At Homeschool Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and BIPOC Voices. [00:00:51] Angela: We are here to encourage and support you. Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether [00:01:00] all your kids are at home or all your kids are in school, or somewhere in between. Wherever you are in your journey, we are the voices in your heads telling you, You're doing great, and so are your kids. [00:01:10] Maren: This episode is 1 94, How We Homeschool with Camille Kirksey. We are going to first share our conversation with Camille, the intuitive homeschooler, and then we'll end like we always do with our lt. Ws loving this week. [00:01:27] Angela: All right. We wanted to let you guys know before we get started about our newsletter. [00:01:30] We would love to have you sign up for it if you don't already get it. It comes out every week on Fridays. It's packed with everything for the week and a little bit of inspiration for you. If you sign up for it, you get a free gift, which which is our book list. This is our top 100 inclusive book list. [00:01:49] We're so proud of this and so excited for it. So if you don't have it yet, you're gonna wanna. Yes, and [00:01:54] Maren: it's a PDF with links. Yeah, just click something. It's so great. We are starting something new [00:02:00] this season where we are bringing you three new sponsors for the entire fall season. We were very intentional about who we chose for sponsors. [00:02:10] We pre appreciate you taking the time to learn about them because we think they're really good companies. Also, they're giving discount codes, so you will definitely want to listen for. We're so happy to work hard on this podcast and we appreciate the financial support in making it happen. [00:02:29] You've heard us rave about out school in the past because they're one of our favorite ways to outsource your homeschool. We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. [00:02:49] Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their interests, connect with diverse peers from around the world, and take an active role in leading [00:03:00] their. Out school has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning free. [00:03:18] Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined. And get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with Code [00:03:27] Angela: UNREFINED. We absolutely love teaching, reading, and writing in ways that are creative and fun, and that's why we are excited to introduce you to Knight Zookeeper. Is your child a reluctant writer? [00:03:41] Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may just be what you're looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused [00:04:00] on developing awesome reading and writing skills, all while having fun at the same. [00:04:05] Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors and the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn together. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in our show notes. [00:04:24] When you register it, you'll get a seven day risk free trial, as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. That's a great deal if you ask. We [00:04:38] Maren: know how hard it is to find curricula that's a good fit for you and your kids. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:04:52] Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschooling families around the globe since 2016. [00:05:00] Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:05:18] Volume one is available for purchase, and volume two is available on pre-sale. All profits from this history curriculum, a River of Voices will be used to support story. And artists from historically excluded communities. You can find samples, scope, and sequences and information about each of their levels online@blossomandroot.com. [00:05:42] You can also find them at Instagram at Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your. [00:05:56] Angela: All right. Hi Mar. Hello. [00:06:00] So happy to be here. So happy. Yeah. Today we have Camille Kirksey with us, and if you are, don't already know her, you might know her from her Instagram reels. [00:06:09] Mm-hmm. That's where we found her first. Mm-hmm. . Camille Kirksey strives wholeheartedly to be honest and transparent about the transformative experience homeschooling offers, shifting the narrative of what home education can be. Since beginning to homeschool in 2013, she has helped thousands of homeschool parents by simplifying the how to homeschool learning process, making it easier, quicker, and less intimidating for newcomers through veterans A. [00:06:36] Camille is an author and homeschool mindset coach that recently launched her first masterclass for new homeschool parents Empowered Beginnings under her upcoming online coaching program for Parents Homeschool U Academy. Which launches in 2023. And here's our conversation with Camille. [00:06:57] Welcome Camille. Thanks for being [00:07:00] here. [00:07:00] Camille: Hi Angela. It's so nice to be here. Finally meeting. I know. Finally in person. kinda [00:07:05] Angela: in person. Person. Yeah. Yeah. This is fun. Yeah. So yeah, I first discovered you doing reels and if you're not following the intuitive homeschooler and doing on reels on Instagram, you're missing out. [00:07:19] So . So thank you for bringing that joy into my life. First, tell us a little bit about yourself, your job, your family, things [00:07:28] Camille: like. So I'm Camille. I have three kids, teen all the way to seven. Okay. We've been homeschooling since 2013, so this is year nine for us. Okay. As you said, I do reels. That is my happy place. [00:07:44] I take all the crazy things that go on in my head and and give it to the people, and people seem to like it. Yeah. And that's just about being relatable. One of the things I really like to do is highlight things that I think we're all thinking and do it in a funny [00:08:00] way. So that's something I really enjoy. [00:08:01] What else? So I'm a homeschool mom. I run a business, a digital media Okay. Business. Where we create content. I release a book in 2020 for new homeschoolers called Coming Home, and that has turned into a new master. And next year, 2023, a digital academy for our homeschool parents where we can go and learn some things. [00:08:24] The kids get to have a lot of fun online, but we, we need to do that too, so. [00:08:28] Angela: Okay. That's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. I have to ask you about your reals because you have a talent for finding audio . [00:08:38] Camille: Oh. Like, you [00:08:40] Angela: find a piece of audio that you think wouldn't relate. And then you make it relatable. And I'm wondering like, has this just come to you? [00:08:48] Like, are you just like, Oh, I don't, I know what to do with that ? Yeah. [00:08:52] Camille: You know, they find me. Okay. It's just, especially on Instagram, I know it's different on TikTok, Instagram, you can't really find a audio [00:09:00] anyway, so you kind, you gotta come across it, but it just happens in my head. If it's funny and I can make it work, then I do. [00:09:08] Angela: That's awesome. That's awesome. And you know what, You're also like not afraid to say the thing that other people might be afraid to say. So I appreciate that. [00:09:15] Camille: Oh, of course. It's, that's been a gift and a curse my entire life, even as a kid. So, and my mother can attest to that. She's told me many stories of her, like looking like, Is my child about to get in trouble with some other people? [00:09:29] Let me make sure she's okay. Yeah. Cause she speaks her [00:09:32] Angela: mind. So yeah, it's definitely a gift. It's a gift. Okay, I accept that. Yeah. Yeah. So how did you get started homeschooling and like, what made you decide to do that? [00:09:43] Camille: So, It was a real kind of random thing. I found myself on Facebook at like two in the morning as, as one does back in the day. [00:09:54] And I saw a black woman from, I think she was from Seattle. [00:10:00] She was from No, Colorado. Denver. Okay. And she had like seven kids and they were homeschooling. And that was the first introduction I ever had. I didn't, I had never heard of it until then. Mm-hmm. , this was 2013. Wow. Okay. And my oldest was four and he was in school like a pre-K, and it was fine. [00:10:19] We didn't have any problems. I didn't, you know, homeschool as a reaction to him being at school. But when I saw her and I saw how she presented herself and I saw this freedom and just, I just was like, I like that, I want that. So I kind of started looking into it, you know, back in 2013, you really can't find like, A breath of information about homeschooling. [00:10:39] It was very basic. Yeah. Lot of YouTube wasn't happening yet. Yeah, definitely not podcast. No. And so yeah, that was kind of my first aha moment. And then a couple things happened at the school and I was like, you know, let's just try it and that, and it kind of just stuck. [00:10:53] Angela: So you're one of those people who just decided to try it and then it worked and you were. [00:10:59] That's awesome. [00:11:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. And you've just stuck with it for nine years now? Yeah. This [00:11:04] Camille: is nine September. Yeah. It just, it, it really. Had I known about it growing up, I probably would've had it on my radar. Mm-hmm. . But we just were I guess a typical family. Everybody went to school. My parents went to work. [00:11:18] Yeah. So I didn't even know there was an alternative way of learning. Yeah. Right. Yeah. [00:11:23] Angela: Right. And so what is your, do you have like a homeschool philosophy or what kind of homeschooler are you? [00:11:29] Camille: I don't, I mean, I'm kind of just a go with the flow, kind of, I guess. Intuitive . Yeah. Because I just really trust myself and my kids to let. [00:11:39] To, so all of us can just kind of flow together. Mm-hmm. That's kind of how my life has been. I thought I was gonna be a lawyer from when I was little and then I had a law class in high school. I was like, Nah, that ain't, that ain't it. So I just learned like, life is gonna bring me what I need to know. [00:11:55] Yeah. I just gotta trust the process. So yeah. I'm just, that's so interest. [00:12:00] Technically, I guess I would be eclectic cause Yeah, it's just kind of rolling. But yeah, it's just flow. That's just. where I find myself always going to, and when I, when I trust it, it works. [00:12:11] Angela: Okay. Okay. Yeah. So do you do like curriculum? [00:12:15] Some curriculum? Yes. Curriculum. [00:12:17] Camille: I, I call it educational resources. Okay. Because curriculum feels too constraining to me. It feels like, you know, it's only one way to look at things and I look at life as the curriculum. Life is the journey. So yeah, I just pull in whatever works. It it. Okay. It doesn't have to look a certain way. [00:12:36] Angela: Okay, great. And do you guys do things like co-ops or, [00:12:41] Camille: Oh, yeah. Yeah. We actually started in a co-op. We found it, we were one of the founding families in a co-op local to us. Look at you. Okay. When we started, and I was still working at the time, so that was very interesting cause I had Oh wow. Okay. So I had a five year old and a two year old. [00:12:56] No. He was one. Okay. And I was working from [00:13:00] home so I could like work anywhere. So we were at the co-op and it was beautiful. We, we loved it. That really worked for a few years. Okay. But since then we've done homeschool groups. Like my kids are at a homeschool group now, like a drop off homeschool group. [00:13:14] Okay. Yeah. Yeah, we do, we do like homeschool nature class. We, we get out and, and do a lot of homeschool type stuff. Yeah. [00:13:21] Angela: Yeah. Okay. That's great. So what would you say makes your homeschool unique? And I asked this because in the last episode we did, we talked about making your homeschool unique and how you know, Every child is unique. [00:13:34] Every parent's unique. And so you gotta do what works for you. So what do you think makes you all unique in the way that you homeschool? [00:13:41] Camille: Well, I think I, I really trust my, myself and I trust my kids and I really try to give them a say in a lot of things, even though we're not unschoolers. Mm-hmm. I really. [00:13:54] I really try to involve them as much as possible. It's kind of difficult cause my kids are kind of really [00:14:00] go with the flow kids. Like they don't have a specific thing, like, I wanna study this. They're kinda like going with whatever I do. But I think you over Yeah. Yeah. They're able to, you know, kind of narrow it down a little bit more. [00:14:13] Yeah. But yeah, I think, I think what I see out there in the homeschool community is a lot of us don't always trust ourselves and our kids. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things. Probably appeals to people about me because I thousand percent trust us to figure this thing out together. [00:14:29] Angela: That is such, that is so important and such an advantage that you have because you're right. [00:14:33] Like a lot of people and in myself included at the beginning, were like unsure or not self-confident in what you were doing or you know, because you're already like doing something different. You know, you're already like, You know, people probably think you're weird or like, what's, what's that family doing? [00:14:52] Or whatever. So that can be hard to be really confident in yourself and trust you and your kids and that you, you know what you're doing. Yeah. And so [00:15:00] I really think that's an advantage. Is that something that's like kind of just the way you are, it's kind of like in you born in you? Or is that like, come with practice? [00:15:09] Camille: Oh, it's absolutely practice. As far as homeschooling goes me personally, I, I am just a very, I do what I and my mother can say. I, I do what I want. I've been like that for a long time. If it's something that I want to do, I'm gonna do. But when it came to homeschooling, I absolutely didn't start out confident. [00:15:25] I started out very excited and curious, but clueless. Mm-hmm. , completely clueless. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And so I, over, over the years, I've just, I have, you know, one thing about me, I'm not afraid to try things. I don't because I, I never think I fail at anything. I just learn, Okay, well that didn't work or part of it worked, or mm-hmm. [00:15:47] So yeah, it, it took me five years. I always tell people it takes between three and five years to really, really get it, like really live it and understand. Interesting. Mm-hmm. that three are Mark for sure, but for me it was. Because I burned out [00:16:00] and I wanted quit. We were looking for school. Oh, did you? [00:16:02] Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But after that I was like, You know what, we're just gonna sell it in. And I didn't give myself an out. Mm-hmm. , you know, I said, We're gonna go, we're gonna go with this thing. We're not gonna go year by year. We're gonna go with this thing. And yeah. So after a while it just kind of stuck. [00:16:20] Yeah. Cause I'm like, well, I can't, I can't not do it. So [00:16:24] Angela: we're gonna do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So what did you learn in that time? Like what kinds of things were you maybe thinking or doing at the beginning that you you know, decide, you realized like, this isn't working. I need to fix it and do it a different way? [00:16:40] What changed [00:16:40] Camille: for. Well, I jumped in like a lot of us do with, you know, buying curricula upfront. Yeah. Not, not understanding like my rhythm, not even knowing about rhythm, you know. Mm-hmm. , I did what schools do, what I went through, you know, most of us go through mm-hmm. And. A lot of that can [00:17:00] be helpful at first for transitioning mm-hmm. [00:17:02] Because it gives you some sense of normalcy, like you are familiar with that. Yeah. But over time, you know, and I know we talk about your, like finding your kids Like their learning styles. And you know, after a long time into that, I was like, That's, that's just not real. That's just, it's just not a thing. [00:17:22] Okay. It's something that feels good, but in real life we don't only have one learning style. We learn things multiplicity of ways. So, yeah. You know, I just jumped into the traditional way of homeschooling and I, I just found that. It didn't feel good. Maybe it checked off the boxes. Mm-hmm. , but it didn't feel right. [00:17:42] And yeah, I tried everything. I tried Waldorf, I tried unschooled, I tried, I went down. I did it all cuz I didn't know what else to do, you know? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so it's probably nothing I haven't done at this point. That just gave me the confidence. Okay, well those didn't work. It has to be something else. [00:17:58] Mm-hmm. . And once I started [00:18:00] listening to myself and learning my kids Cause it's also hard when your kids are little because they, Yeah. You know, they don't really, they can't really direct you in a way. Some kids can, but my kids were very open, so it's kind of left up to me. And that's hard too, cuz I don't know. [00:18:15] Yeah, [00:18:16] Angela: that is such a good point that. Hadn't thought of until now that when you're, you, some people start when their kids are younger. A lot of people do. Yeah. And then so you think you figured it out or you think you, you've got this or whatever, and then your kids get older and you're like, Oh Now my child is showing me who they are and what they need. [00:18:34] And things need to change a little bit. [00:18:36] Camille: Absolutely. It's, yeah, it's really difficult to know. I mean, and I think that's why a lot of kids end up going to school when they get older because things change. They need different things. Yeah. And. You know, you just have to try to meet them where they are. But it's hard to do when they're little because they're, you're the leader at that point. [00:18:55] Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's hard to, you know, let them lead unless they're very [00:19:00] strong. Some kids are very, very particular and they know what they want. Yeah. But a lot of them don't. So you kind of left, I dunno. [00:19:07] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. So what are some of your favorite resources? Do you have like one or two that you love to use? [00:19:15] Camille: Ooh. [00:19:16] Angela: Doesn't have to be specific. You can be like YouTube [00:19:18] Camille: or, you know, I'm a workbook person. Like, personally, I really do like workbooks. And I, I've done all types of workbooks, but I, I feel like. My kids like to know what they have to do. Like Yeah. And it's easy to say this is it, you know? Yep. But yeah, probably more workbooks. [00:19:37] They don't really, they don't really gravitate towards anything else. I'm kinda like a workbook. Make sure you read, you know, for however many minutes mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. a person. So kind of just like a mix between like, let's see what's at the library with that and workbooks, but it's not one particular. You know, I don't have a particular resource that I like a go-to. [00:19:59] It's [00:20:00] just like, this works right now, kind of [00:20:02] Angela: thing. That's just it. That's how it has been for me too, a little bit. It's just like you find a thing, it works for a few months and then you gotta find another thing. . Mm-hmm. . There's very few things that work the whole way through. Because people change, kids change and needs change and you get bored or mm-hmm. [00:20:19] you know, you need a variety or whatever. So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. So what does a typical day or week look like for you? [00:20:28] Camille: You know, honestly it's pretty boring because it's so monotonous. . I think my kids are bored a lot because we do the same thing. They just know, you know? Okay. But it's the standard, you know, we start school probably around 10, 11 ish, cuz my kids will be older. [00:20:44] They wanna sleep in. [00:20:45] Angela: Yeah. And so you let 'em sleep in? Oh, absolutely. My [00:20:48] Camille: oldest. Sometimes he's not up till like two in afternoon. I'm like, Oh, I forgot you were here because I haven't even seen you today, . That's many a days. Okay. But yeah, so we'll get up, get dressed, [00:21:00] you know, typical stuff, and then we'll do school. [00:21:03] School takes about a couple hours. Okay. Right now we're doing th three days a week cuz they have homeschool group and we have other stuff going on. Mm. Yeah. Okay. And yeah. And then in the afternoons, I'm normally doing my work stuff or just vegging out watching something reels. I watch a ton of reels, [00:21:20] I guess that's my research. . Well, yeah, for [00:21:23] Angela: sure. It's for [00:21:23] Camille: research. Yeah. Yeah. . And so our weeks are pretty, they're, they're pretty, like I said, they're monotonous. They're the same thing. We may meet up with friends, you know? Mm-hmm. , if we can do that. Or a field trip or you know, the, Definitely the library. [00:21:38] Yeah. But we're, we're just really go with the flow. Like whatever, I try to have, you know, pay attention to the schedule, but I, I'm not a slave to the schedule. I'm kind of like, we'll go with the flow kind of thing. [00:21:50] Angela: That's nice. That's nice. So what do you, what for you is the best part of homeschooling? Like, why have you stuck with. [00:21:58] Camille: You know, I [00:22:00] really, when I used to work outside the home, I always wanted to be with my kids. Like, I just love the idea of being like going to the zoo and, you know, Yeah. Going and just hanging out. So I really do enjoy being with my kids. Mm-hmm. . But I also love that it's a second chance for me to really learn. [00:22:17] So much, so, so much. And to see things through their eyes because, and this is one of the things that I think a lot of homeschoolers have a problem with. We, our kids are different. Than us. Mm-hmm. , a lot of us, most of us grew up in the 19 hundreds. Let's just be clear and as long, as long as we, you know, continue to look at things from like the 20th century, we're gonna miss a lot of opportunities for our kids. [00:22:46] They are growing up in a different time. They have access to so much we didn't. Mm-hmm. , they have autonomy the way we didn't, you know, we. You know, parenting techniques that really give them this [00:23:00] voice. Mm-hmm. that a lot of us didn't have. So I really appreciate being, being in this modern time where, you know, maybe society wise, children aren't always seen as whole people, but there's this. [00:23:12] Movement of parents. Yeah. Especially with homeschooling. They're like, No, my kids mental wellbeing is important. Mm-hmm. , you know, how they, what they think about and how they express themselves is important. So I love being part of this movement of homeschooling that is very recent. Yeah. More modern. It's really honor. [00:23:31] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's probably my [00:23:34] Angela: favorite part. Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. That resonates with me so much. I agree with you. I think there is a movement to, you know, a lot of people look back with nostalgia, but especially among homeschoolers, that can be the case. But I agree that there's so much. [00:23:51] There's so many positive things about the time that we're living in. Mm-hmm. . I know there's a lot of scary things too, but, you know a lot of it is positive and if we embrace it [00:24:00] and realize, like you said, our kids are growing up in a totally different world. This is amazing for them. It really is. [00:24:05] It's amazing. And you're right, it's a second chance for us. Like yeah. We are now getting to experience a lot of these things that they are too. It's. It's invaluable, so I really appreciate that. Yeah. What is what's one of the hardest parts for you about homeschooling, if anything? [00:24:25] Camille: Hmm. What's hard about it? [00:24:27] I guess just personally, because I guess I'm like a public figure or whatever. Just seeing people struggle with the things that I don't, I just know they don't have to struggle with, but they don't know it yet. Yeah. And I think that's probably the most difficult, like seeing how the community is changing, but it's, it's not always. [00:24:49] Inclusive and, and is diverse and mm-hmm. and supportive as I want it to be. And so obviously that's what I try to do. Yeah. Is provide that. But I think that's the [00:25:00] hardest seeing people, you know, In, in spaces where they're, they feel defeated or they can't do it. And I'm just like, Come here. Like no [00:25:09] Angela: Yeah. It doesn't have to be that hard. It doesn't have to be that hard. Yeah. Yeah. And it is really hard to know that when you're first starting out, or you're right. If you're in a space or you know, I think a lot of times you're looking around and wanting to do things the way other people do it because you don't know. [00:25:25] Right. And so that can be hard to know. Like there is a different way and it can be easier, it can be more relaxed. [00:25:31] Camille: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. [00:25:32] Angela: Yeah. So it sounds like where you live, I don't know, you didn't say where you live, but it sounds like where you live, you have a good comu, a homeschool community that you feel You know, is, is good for your family and that's amazing. [00:25:46] Camille: Yeah. Yeah. We do, We have access to, I mean, it's way more homeschoolers than I thought. Like when we, we first were part of the co-op. We're not with them now, but it was, it was so many families from so many different spaces and that was, I [00:26:00] was very surprised. I just didn't realize how many. Like within five minutes of me. [00:26:04] It was ridiculous. Wow. But yeah, we're kind of like adjacent to the homeschool, homeschool community. I haven't really found like a group of people. I have hand, like a, maybe a couple people. Yeah. . But online is like amazing . Yeah. But yeah, in person, it's kind of like we haven't, we've never been able to find our, our people like a group. [00:26:28] It's here and there, but not consistent. Yeah. [00:26:30] Angela: Like you kind of have your fingers in different places, but it's, you don't feel like, And I think that's okay too. I just, I want people to know like, there isn't always gonna be a perfect community for your family. Right. There probably isn't. Right. You know, if you have that count yourself. [00:26:46] Lucky because Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. But more like, for me at least, it was cobbling together a lot of just different things and some, some non homeschool things too, like after school or evening [00:27:00] type activities too, was where we met like kids who went to traditional school. [00:27:04] Yeah. Yeah, too. [00:27:06] Camille: So it was more, I think it's more common than not though. I mean, that's the thing, Yeah. With mm-hmm. , there's so many reasons why it's kind of disjointed that way, but mm-hmm. , I think that's more common than having like this. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. Especially like for me, you know, we're a secular family and we don't have like a set, like a church group or, you know. [00:27:27] Yeah. That's way. But I think that's less common that in the homeschool community to really have that set group that you could just come into and you feel comfortable, you feel belong, like you belong. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, Cause I can get along with a lot of folks, but I don't, I have yet to find somewhere I feel like I belong in person. [00:27:47] Mm-hmm. . And that's just, that's really, that's a struggle. But you know, like you said, it just, it is what it is and that's, [00:27:53] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's definitely a A way the homeschool community could grow, you know? Mm-hmm. is being [00:28:00] more inclusive and we talk about that a lot, but it is hard to be, to feel like you don't fit for whatever reason. [00:28:06] Yeah. And, or feel like you're excluded for whatever reason in a group, or just to see, at least for me, it was hard to see like a lot of other groups getting together and then feeling like you don't really belong with that group. Then you're like, I feel like you miss out. You know? Right. Especi for something with [00:28:23] Camille: kids, you know, that's, It's okay if. [00:28:27] I'm the one that doesn't feel like a fit. I'm okay with that. But for the kids it is, it is difficult to see that because Yeah, like if you don't have, like, we don't have kids in the neighborhood and we don't, you know, so it is like, it's very intentional that I have to get out there and do it. Yep. Yep. Yeah. [00:28:43] It, it can be challenging for sure. [00:28:45] Angela: Can be challenging. Yep. So just for fun, because I'm curious, and I always, we talk about this a lot too. What kinds of things are you into right now? Like maybe you're reading, maybe you're watching something, maybe it's music you're listening [00:29:00] to. I'm just curious if you wanna share anything fun that you're into. [00:29:04] Camille: I mean, reals, that's probably like the most fun I have in a day. Yeah. And just, you know, engaging with people online. Yep. I am doing a cohort right now with moms, new homeschool moms, and it's every week and. I love doing that. Like I, I just love getting to know people and helping them be their best sales. [00:29:25] Yeah. So that's kind of how I spend my days for the most part. And all of it's fun to me, like Yeah. All of [00:29:31] Angela: it. . Yeah. You know, I love how you're normalizing that because I think people can feel, especially your homeschool parents or just parents in general, can feel guilty. Hmm. About the time that they're spending online, or especially like watching reels or [00:29:46] Camille: whatever. [00:29:47] Oh, no. don't do that. , that's like, I, I just, I've always, I remember being a little kid, like, I'm not gonna be these like, stuffy adults that don't laugh and, you know, are silly. Like, that's my. [00:30:00] State of mind. I, I, I find funny things and just probably the craziest places and mm-hmm. . Yeah. Like, yeah, I don't want, I don't want, don't do that like do. [00:30:09] So, and, and I think a lot of people, a lot of women moms, Yeah. Feel like, you know, self care has to be this. Like bubble bath or spot. Yeah. No, my laughing at these reels are, is laughing. That does that for me. That's laughing. [00:30:23] Angela: Yes. Are you on TikTok too? [00:30:26] Camille: Are you having I am not. No. I couldn't do both. Really? [00:30:30] Angela: That's, Yeah. It'd be easy. You just like put it over there too. You just like, No, actually it's not that easy. It's cuz we're, we're doing both too. Okay. And I you. Yeah, it's not as easy to, to do both. Like you can't just copy paste. If you could, that would be, Yeah. [00:30:46] Camille: Yeah. I, I tried that a little bit cause my, one of my friends was like, You have to get on TikTok. [00:30:50] Even my cousin, you have to get on TikTok. And I was like, No, , okay. I tried it, but it's like, I feel better, I feel more at home on Instagram. [00:31:00] Yeah. [00:31:00] Angela: Right. Yeah. I get. Yeah. Okay. So I am curious too, something that we always talk about is, are things that we don't do. So like a lot of other people do things that we sometimes think we should do. [00:31:16] Hmm. But you know, like for example, like I don't when my kids were little, I didn't do their laundry. They did their laundry or you know, I don't garden , , you know, I love other people gardening or like, you know, I think that's amazing. If that's your hobby and you like doing that, I'm not gonna do that. [00:31:34] Yeah. So just embracing the things that you don't do mm-hmm. then you're making room for the things that you really enjoy doing. So what are. Something that you [00:31:42] Camille: don't do? I mean, it's a lot. I don't do . I, I, I've, I've always, I've never been afraid to say no. That was probably my default for a long time. [00:31:50] Yeah. Because I don't. I'm an introvert. Like it doesn't come out like that, but I really, I really am. I really? Yeah, I believe you. Yeah. . So [00:32:00] I say no to most things. Yeah. But like you said, it is because I, I wanna, you know, really. Pay attention to the things that really matter to me in my kids. Mm-hmm. [00:32:11] Mm-hmm. . So, I don't know, like, I can, I think I say no to so much. I, I don't do drama. Like I, you know, even though I post some things that can be controversial sometimes. Oh yeah. That's very intentional. I'm a conversation starter. I want to do that. But most of the time I'm, I'm just kind of to myself, so I guess. [00:32:30] I normally, I can't even think of any particular thing I don't do, cuz there's so much I don't do. Yeah. I'm a minimalist too. Like, I keep things so simple. Yeah. Like I will say for homeschooling, I don't have a bunch of stuff. I don't, I don't find joy in keeping curricula that doesn't work or you know, just because I pay for something, I'm going to try to, I would give stuff away before I sell it. [00:32:52] Yeah. So I guess it's something I absolutely don't do. I don't hoard things just in case even I know you mentioned like earlier where [00:33:00] you know the curriculum is boring and you kind of move on and Yeah. I'm like, I don't put it on the shelf. Most times I kind of give it away because I don't You get [00:33:08] Angela: rid of it [00:33:08] Camille: right away. [00:33:09] Yeah, because I'm like, I'm not gonna save it. And some, some stuff. Very little. Very little. Yeah. But yeah, I kind of keep stuff real streamlined and, and moving. [00:33:20] Angela: That's just, You're not attached [00:33:22] Camille: to I am not attached, no. Yeah. I'm not attached to a lot of things. I'm not, I'm not even attached to the outcome of this homeschool journey. [00:33:31] Oh, I'm not attached to that. Say more about that. Yeah. I, I don't, I don't, and that's one of the things I went through a period of time where I was just binging so many, like, I guess self-improvement type books and just this really, I, I just, that's where I think my intuition really, really solidified for me, where I was. [00:33:50] I cannot be attached to the outcome of what happens. All I can do is do my best today. Mm-hmm. and whatever happens going forward is outta my [00:34:00] control. Mm-hmm. . So when it comes to homeschooling, I'm like, I'm gonna show up as much as possible and support my kids as much as I can. But what would they do with that that's on them, You know, just as adults, they, I can only. [00:34:14] Give them the best of me and they have to take whatever they can and, and go forward. I mean, that's for me, that's, that's how I don't get attached to like where they should be, what they should be doing today. Here we are. Oh, that's, you, [00:34:30] Angela: like healthy. That's just so healthy advice and I think most people are not there. [00:34:36] I, and most people put a lot of pressure on themselves to do it right. Because their kids' future depends on it or whatever. But you know, if your kids were in school, it would be the same. It would be like, yeah, I mean, you know, this is what we're doing, but you know, I don't know what the outcomes will be. [00:34:55] It's what you make of it, or it's, it's just what's gonna happen. This [00:35:00] is the best thing we're doing right now. I'm, I'm giving you, I'm given. I'm given a good try. Yep. And . That's it. . That's all I can do. Yeah, [00:35:11] Camille: that's I can. I know what, I don't create a separation between myself and my kids. Like, Okay, adults do it this way and kids do it this way because I don't know what I'm doing on a daily basis. [00:35:21] This. Mm-hmm. like this podcast, we can only plan so much. Yeah. We're gonna, whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. Yeah. So adults, as adults, we practice this all the time. This jumping into situations, new jobs, relationships, all types of stuff. Mm-hmm. . So I don't know why that would be any different for the kids. [00:35:37] We don't know what's gonna happen with us. As much as we planned. I went to college, I, I'm not doing any of the stuff that I thought I was gonna be doing, you know, like you have. But that's the fun of it. Like that's where the, we talk about lifelong learning and being curious for our kids, but at some point it kind of doesn't apply to us. [00:35:55] Mm-hmm. . Yeah, it applies to us. So that's kind of what I like to do. I like to [00:36:00] not know what's coming. I'm okay with that cuz I'm. I've been okay in the past. I'll be okay in the future. It's, it's all good. It's hard to, [00:36:08] Angela: It's such a great, it's such a great attitude. It's such a great attitude. It's like it's ideal for homeschooling too, you know, to, to just Now, put that pressure on yourself. [00:36:18] What what happens will happen. Yeah. We love learning. We're just gonna keep, keep trying, keep experiencing things and yeah, this is life. [00:36:27] Camille: Yep. Life is the curricula. You just keep moving and that's amazing. [00:36:31] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. Of course. I'm so glad that we got to talk finally, and I wanted our audience to hear from you, and so will you tell our listeners where they can find you and what kinds of things you really want them to know about that you're doing? [00:36:51] Camille: Okay. So as for mentioned Instagram, I'm on there, the intuitive homeschooler. Mm-hmm. . My blog website is the intuitive [00:37:00] homeschooler.com. Okay. So all my places are on there. Yeah. I also have the new academy that is, we're kind of soft starting. Yeah. And that is homeschool. Academy, and that's just homeschool u.academy. [00:37:16] And so like the letter you or wireless? Yes. The letter You, [00:37:18] Angela: I'm sorry. Thank homeschool u.academy Academy. [00:37:21] Camille: Okay. Yes. And so that's coming out early 2023. It's gonna be, it's really an online coaching type of, Thing, but it's, it's gonna be interesting. Yeah. So yeah, they can just follow me, their Instagram for sure. [00:37:35] All my [00:37:35] Angela: fun reels, . Yep. Gotta check those out. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, we loved having you. Thank you for being [00:37:42] Camille: here. Thank you so much for having me. Byebye. [00:37:47] [00:37:47] Maren: Let's move on to our loving this week. Love Lt. Ws. Angela, do you wanna get [00:37:54] Angela: started? [00:37:55] What are you Loving this week? Sure, sure. So I'm loving something that. I, [00:38:00] somebody in our Instagram comments mentioned and I got it and now I'm wondering if you have already mentioned it to me, . So you'll have to tell me. Okay. You'll have to tell me. Okay. But I did a real, where I talked about our whiteboard as being like one of our favorite things in our house. [00:38:17] Right. And the thing that I put all of our, like, it just basically organizes our family and it sits in our living room like a big piece of artwork. Right. Yeah, exactly. Takes a place of an artwork. Piece of artwork, , and that's okay. Right? And then somebody in the comments, maybe one of you listening, said do you have the, like stickers for your fridge, [00:38:39] And I didn't. And then I looked them up. Oh, yes. [00:38:43] Maren: You have those, The sticker whiteboards like, Yeah. [00:38:46] Angela: Yeah. Except it's a big piece. It's not like a post. I don't have a big one. You don't have a big one. Okay, so I got these from Amazon. It is called Mc Squares. . [00:38:59] Maren: Love [00:38:59] Angela: it. [00:39:00] 11 i. They're 11 by 11. Okay. And they are not stickers actually. [00:39:05] So they clinging to your stainless steel appliances. It just cl. That's so nice. Yeah, so you can like remove it. It's not, doesn't not have a sticky back. I don't know how it clings. It's magic. It's science. Yeah. Doesn't matter [00:39:18] Maren: if, if it works, just go with [00:39:20] Angela: it. Right? So I got two cuz we have a fridge that's like, you know side by side or whatever. [00:39:26] So there's two sides, right? Mm-hmm. . So I got two, one for one for each side. 11 by 11 is perfect size. It takes up almost the whole space. Yeah. And one says like for is for everybody to write, like whatever grocer. They want me to get great. And then the other for what we're having for dinner. Oh, I love that. [00:39:45] Yeah, it's a great idea. Mm-hmm. and everybody's using it. They're all using it to write their, their requested items. And I love it so much. I, [00:39:53] Maren: That is so nice because what happened before, What happened before you had the list , you know, somebody's like, Mom, can [00:40:00] you add this to the list? And you'd be like, you'd be like, I'm [00:40:02] Angela: getting groceries. [00:40:03] I'd text everybody. I'm getting groceries. Does anybody want anything? And maybe one person would text me. Back a long list. Right. . Right. And the other people would be like, Oh no, I missed it. Did you already order? And so this is like, this is just always there. That's so great. A dry erase marker, always there. [00:40:22] And they can just use it. So [00:40:24] Maren: Yeah. And that's when it's on their mind when they're at the fridge. Right. . [00:40:29] Angela: And it's like, well, I always kind of like, I wanted. Dry erase for our fridge, but because we have stainless steel, you can't get like a magnet. Right. You can't get a magnet one. Exactly. Yeah. So it was just like, oh, our fridge is plain. [00:40:43] Which is fine, you know, it looks nice and clean. But this was, Oh, cuz the fridge is just like, it's like in the main, it's the main attraction in the kitchen. Right? Right. Definitely. So it take, this is. Prime real estate is what I'm saying. Yeah, it is. It totally is. [00:40:58] Maren: Prime. That's awesome. Yeah, so I love it. [00:40:59] [00:41:00] Oh, I love this idea. What I had was I do have magnetic white, little square, white boards basically, and they go on the side of our fridge. Oh yes, we have this like three inch space on the side of a fridge. Remember? You know, Yeah. Our fridge goes into this, you know? Yeah. It's a built in, right? And so we have like three inches, and so I got these three inch squares, and at each square I put, you know, I have one for every day of the week, and so I just write down what we're gonna have each day [00:41:28] Angela: for, for dinners. [00:41:30] Maren: Okay. Yeah. Which I love too. I love [00:41:33] Angela: it. Now I remember you telling me about that. Yes. And I remember looking at it and I don't have three inches , like ours is also built in. Yes. There's nothing sticking out. There's nothing out. Yeah. , [00:41:44] Maren: so, So yeah. Nothing I know. So this is great for you. I love that. I'm really happy [00:41:48] Angela: to, I'll put a link in the show notes there from Amazon, of course. [00:41:50] So, mm-hmm. . Yeah. All right. What are you loving this week, Maren? Okay. I am loving a [00:41:54] Maren: new phone wallet. Oh, and yeah, I'm loving it because [00:42:00] it's magnetic it. And I know this is probably not earth shattering to anyone. You've probably had phones. It [00:42:05] Angela: actually is to me . [00:42:06] Maren: Yeah. Well I think many people have had phones that have the magnetic phone and phone case thing. [00:42:13] The MagSafe for a long time. I just got one of these, a phone case that is mag safe and it's so nice because then I. You know, Ally Hook my wallet right to the back and I love it. I love it. It looks stylish. It's called The Hive. It's fr, I think it's called Hive. Yes. Hive. Anyway, that's the brand name. Okay. [00:42:36] And I'll, I'll, I'll definitely. Give a link to this too. But I love it because number one, it fits, it says it fits six cards. Okay. There so many of these wallet cases fit [00:42:49] Angela: one or two or, [00:42:50] Maren: Okay. Yeah. Or I stretch it so much. Yeah. But it doesn't work anymore after, you know, So this one says six. I don't, I've never used six. [00:42:58] I usually, I like a good four. [00:43:00] Card, wallet. Mm-hmm. . And so this one fits my cards perfectly. It's just, it fits, feels really good. And then also I just, I mean, I am a person, I know, I've known this about myself for years. I need a wallet. On [00:43:13] Angela: my phone, . [00:43:14] Maren: Otherwise I forget my wallet. It is just the way it is. So I've been like hooked to these wallet cases for years. [00:43:22] Mm-hmm. , I need that. I know that, but I also just absolutely love the chance to take it off every once in a while and just have a phone that doesn't have a wallet on it, even just for a short amount of time. It's nice. I really like it. [00:43:35] Angela: I appreciate. Yes, I saw you using this and yeah, I might have to copy you again. [00:43:40] I copied you on the phone wallet thing, which I have been using for years. Right, Which has been so handy. It's so nice, but the only problem with it that I have is that I can't charge it on a, On a wireless charger. Wireless charger. [00:43:55] Maren: Yep. Yep. It's true. Yeah. And so that's another [00:43:58] Angela: benefit. That's fine. [00:44:00] It's fine that I don't, I'm not able to do that. [00:44:02] But when I saw your wallet, removable wallet, yeah, I kind of liked that. Now, can you like put your phone in your back pocket without snagging or It can, Yes. Okay. [00:44:12] Maren: Yep, it works great. Okay. Yes. The material is just perfect for fitting in. Yeah, so I just, I really love it. And also the, you know, the magnet is so strong, so I never worried that it's gonna fall off. [00:44:25] That was my concern always. Yeah. [00:44:27] Angela: That the, I would [00:44:28] Maren: just, my wallet would just fall, but this thing is [00:44:31] Angela: really strong. That's nice. Yeah, because I think technology just keeps getting better. Obviously because I think when I considered this option mm-hmm. A few years ago they were like sticker wallets. . [00:44:44] Maren: Yes, [00:44:44] Angela: yes. [00:44:45] There wasn't a magnet. And then I, so I'm just, I haven't really looked, but now that I know, I think, Cause I'm not a purse person either, I'm, I'm not gonna carry a purse. [00:44:55] Maren: You just have to be careful and get, You do need a phone case that is [00:45:00] makes safe. It says make safe phone case. Oh really? Yeah. That allows the magnet magnetism to work [00:45:09] So yes, you do need that. Okay. But a lot, There's a lot of them. Lots of choices. There's so [00:45:14] Angela: many. Okay. Okay. [00:45:16] Maren: I love it. Yeah. [00:45:17] Angela: A big thank you to our three sponsors out School Night, Zookeeper, and Blossom and Root. Be sure. Be sure to check out their links in our show notes. [00:45:27] Maren: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela C and Marron Gorse. We are listener supported. To get extra content and the Back to School summit for free with your membership, go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. [00:45:43] You can subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive book list@homeschoolunrefined.com slash newsletter. You can find Maron on Instagram at unrefined maron and at Always [00:46:00] Learning With Mar, and you can find Angela at unrefined. Angela.

How to Use Ancestral Work to Step Deeper Into Your Truth with Angela Ocampo

Body Liberation for All

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 1, 2022 45:09

Angela Ocampo is an intuitive guide, Curandera in training, ancestral wisdom keeper, healer, writer, and old soul. She is devoted to activating, facilitating, and opening portals for others to remember the truths and medicine that lie within us. Through intuitive channeling, energy work, ritual, ancestral healing, Earth medicine, shadow love, and embodiment, Angela works to help others explore and reclaim the forgotten divine parts of the self, including peace, mysticism, ancestral gifts, power, light, and liberation. This episode we exploreSitting with the truth of combined colonized and colonizer ancestryUsing ancestral remembrance to unearth the ancient wisdom that lies within you Using embodied grounding tools Connecting to the body as a source of power Episode Resourceshttps://www.instagram.com/iamangelajo/https://www.subscribepage.com/ancestralconnectionDecolonizing Wellness: A QTBIPOC-Centered Guide to Escape the Diet Trap, Heal Your Self-Image, and Achieve Body LiberationBali Retreat March 19-25 2023I was raised in a super conservative, slightly fundamentalist Christian situation and over the last five years or so, it has brought me so much joy to pursue traditional spiritual practices that are more connected to my ancestry and that aren't directly connected to colonization and the transatlantic slave trade that said there's a lot of resistance in my part of the world anyway, to ancestor veneration or ancestor worship or ancestor remembrance practices. I have found that while ancestor veneration exists all over the world, people's understanding of it really varies from culture to culture and from person to person, quite frankly, whether or not people actually believe their ancestors can hear them and are directly responding to them, whether people see their ancestors as intermediaries between people who are living and actual deities, or whether people think it's just something that you do that is deeply embedded in the culture and that it is good for you psychologically to remember the people that came before you, but no one can actually hear you. So it certainly varies, but I personally I've gotten so much comfort and joy from exploring ancestor veneration that I'm thrilled to have Angela Ocampo with us today who's going to introduce us to ancestor remembrance practices. Angela is coming to us from an indigenous Colombian perspective. And she is going to share with us, her understanding ofancestor remembrancee practices. The value that it’s had in her life and the healing potential that it has. Angela is an intuitive and uses embodiment work and dancing to reconnect people to their own intuition and to their own truth. A lot of times when you feel like you don't know which way to go in life and what's up and what's down. The truth is you do know, but you no longer are feeling confident in acknowledging what you know intuitively and you're seeking ways to validate or prove your opinions rather than just feeling them and going with them. So one of Angela's gifts is helping people get around that feeling of stuckness. So this is an excellent episode. Near the latter portion of the episode, Angela even shares a short meditation with us. So when you get to that section, you're going to want to make sure you're not driving. And that you're in a position where it's going to be safe to get a little relaxed and comfortable. And even though the meditation is brief, don't worry Angela's website is up now and you can visit https://www.angelaocampo.com/ and get a longer version of that meditation. I also have a pretty exciting announcement. I will be hosting my first ever in-person retreat in Bali next March. So that'll be spring break for a lot of people. So hopefully you have that time off and you'll be able to join us as well. There are a lot of exciting excursions planned its going to be focused on teaching you to relax your nervous system and to recover more quickly from any of the stressors you might encounter at home or at work. And for you to really develop recovery practices so that while you're feeling totally relapsed, Totally calm, totally at home in your body, on the trip. You don't have to worry that when you go back home when you fight your way through the airport, you'll completely lose all of that peace. No, you'll be going home with recovery practices. So you can keep returning to that sense of calm so that your nervous system. can stay in the zone that it's meant to be in. We're not meant to constantly be keyed up, stressed out, clenching your teeth, waiting for the other shoe to drop. So it's going to be a wonderful week. It is very far away if you live on the east coast of the us, but I know it's going to be so beautiful and so refreshing. There'll be more details to come. But if you are super excited about the idea of actually hanging out in a wellness space, that's centered on people of color and queer folks and you want to go ahead and check it out and put your deposit in, just visit https://www.daliakinsey.com/retreat, and you'll see the details there. Al right. Let's get on into today's episode. Body Liberation for All ThemeYeah. They might try to put you in a box, tell them that you don't accept when the world is tripping out tell them that you love yourself. Hey, Hey, smile on them live your life just like you like it is.It’s your party negativity is not invited. For my queer folks, for my trans, people of color, let your voice be heard. Look in the mirror and say that it's time to put me first. You born to win. Head up high with confidence. This show is for everyone. So, I thank you for tuning in. Let's go.Dalia: Hi, Angela. Thank you so much for coming on.Angela: Hi, thank you so much for having me.Dalia: When I got your email, I signed up for it and listened to the meditation for connecting to your ancestors. I immediately thought people needed to know about this and needed to hear about the work that you're doing.Dalia: Let's start with, what are your marginalized identities and what does connecting to your ancestors mean for you?Angela: Yeah. So I am, a cisgender woman. I'm heterosexual as well. I come from Columbia, I'm a woman of color. I also have indigenous ancestry. So for me, it has been kind of like a rediscovery journey to meet with my ancestors and connect with them. Because my indigenous ancestry was colonized, a lot of their culture was taken away from them.Angela: And so a lot of the things weren't passed down to, to my family, to my lineage. So I think there was always a disconnect for me where I felt called, you know, to be on the earth and be outside. But I, I just didn't know why. And maybe like a little bit of stories from my family was passed down, but I, I just always felt called.Angela: So when I found ancestral work, I just felt into my body. This is what I need. As, as someone who, you know, was on a spiritual journey anyway, I was always somewhat of a seeker I always wanna find out the truth and just go deep.Angela: So ancestral healing has, has been able to connect me again with like my roots and where I come from. And it creates this sense of belonging. And it creates a sense of just peace in a way, because you are You are discovering who, who you really are, what is your blood?Angela: And you're creating these pathways of remembrance. And that will not only help you, but it's gonna help the generations that come after you.Dalia: Now that's fascinating because almost all of us are descendants of people who were colonized. When you look at how much of the planet was colonized it is mind boggling.Dalia: As their children, we are both descendants of the colonized and the colonizer.Dalia: Did you feel any sort of conflict around that when you connect to your ancestors, do you feel like you belong to them, but you don't feel called to connect to colonizer ancestors?Angela: Yeah. That is a duality that I have been facing. Right. It's it's a confronting duality. And I think I pushed it away for so long. I only wanted to see, yeah, yeah I have indigenous blood, but then that was like the other side, like I needed to face it because that is part of me.Angela: And so I do feel like before I felt more resistance to it and I feel that for, for some reason I have a really strong connection to my indigenous ancestry more it's probably because the stories that I know are mostly from that side of the family. And I feel that the more that I connect with that side I'm opening up the pathway of connecting to that other side, who is the colonizer.Angela: And I feel there's a sense of kind of like reclamation. And I do feel It's kind of confronting because the colonizer had, you know, they didn't have great intentions, you know, there was violence and there was just a lot of harmful things to, to our colonized ancestors.Angela: So I think approaching it in a way where it's it's intentionally saying to, to the energies, like, I wanna connect with the ancestors who have divine intentions and that in a way already sets like the boundaries and knowing that, you know, when people cross over, they. They tend to, you know, like it's, it's a clearing, right?Angela: That they have like kind of like the karma falls down and, and they, they could become pure, but at the same time, some people don't like some, some, some souls, you know, get stuck or so I feel that it's important, even when. When I do get to that point about my social remembrance journey to connect with the colonizer side, to know that I have protection over my own energy.Angela: I have protection of what I live in and I can choose to connect to the good side of them because I like to believe that there was some good in them regardless, and, you know, they did horrible things, but they're still part of me. So I have to like come to terms with that as well.Dalia: I like that framing and that you can set a boundary for what type of energy you want to draw in and which ancestors you want to hear from.Angela: I think that that's helpful to know too, because I think ancestral healing is sometimes it, it can be scary for people because of the fact that a lot of us have ancestors who weren't, you know, the most pure people on the earth, right? Like they, they probably did a lot of harmful things and and so it can, it can bring up a lot.Angela: And that's why I'm also a huge advocate while doing ancestral healing work to have some sort of tools that ground you and that will help, you know, clear any energy that is moving through you because a lot of it can be confronting, especially if you're just new to it. And so that's like, tools basically like dancing I love dancing and it connects me to my ancestors as well.Angela: And so anything that, that allows you to release anything that may come up. I believe our bodies hold so much wisdom and our bodies have our ancestors' blood. So I really love working with the body to, to come to a neutralized point of when you're doing that ancestral work, cuz a lot can come up for sure.Dalia: Would you say that the greatest tool that you have for connecting to your ancestors is your own body?Angela: I actually, I do believe that because I like to believe that I'm very in tune with my body and I think everyone can get there. I think society kind of programs us into thinking like, oh, we're so disconnected or our intuition is, is wrong.Angela: But really like, as, as if you're being, when you came to this earth, like you. As a baby, like you, you knew what your body needed and that's why you like cried and you were hungry. Ever since we come out out of the womb, like we are very in tune with our bodies and it's just that programming and conditioning that disconnects us.Angela: The oppressor wants us to be disconnected from our bodies because that is how we lose our power. So I believe getting into our bodies and using it as a tool for ancestor work is a way that we take our power back. And I feel that also meditation, like going through deep meditations allows me to use my body to kind of just like spark that, that like connection.Angela: Like I mentioned, it brings, it has so much wisdom sometimes. I like I'm in, I'm in nature or like, I listen to a song and like, I feel it, and my body, like this deep, like a tingling sensation. It's, it's not something that my mind can really like give a meaning to, but it's like my body knows first.Angela: Right. I feel too that because our soul is, is connected to our body. It it's like holding our body. The body is one of the, the greatest allies, because it speaks directly. Like it doesn't allow the mind, the mind that allows, that sometimes tells us that we're overthinking it, or, you know, it puts like doubts in our head.Angela: I think the body comes from a place of pureness.Dalia: Hmm. I love that framing because my first thought was, well, how do you know that you can connect to your ancestors? So my first reaction was how do we process this intellectually? How do we know that we can even do this? And that ancestral work is something that we can all access. Because when you don't have access to a lot of the traditions that your ancestors practiced.Dalia: I know, sometimes you feel anxiety around, like, am I doing this correctly? Can I recreate traditions that are lost? But what is your take on that? I would imagine that if the body is the guide, then there are many ways, even if you don't have any way to know the exact traditions that were used, that there are many ways to tap into this power.Angela: Correct. Yeah. I, I believe our intuition is our biggest guide. And the body, like the body, what it feels the sensations. So for anyone that doesn't have access to, you know, who your ancestors were, I say, the first thing is like, what do you feel inclined to? That is the first thing that you wanna attempt into. A lot of us have, we love things that don't have.Angela: Maybe we just don't realize like why we love what that certain thing, but we just do. So like tapping into that because we we hold so much wisdom that we might not be conscious of, but sometimes we're just drawn to things. So I would say for those people that don't have accesses to really lean into what you're drawn to, what calls your attention and really experiment, right?Angela: If, if you know, for example, if you know, you, you have ancestry from Africa, start listening to some African music. What are you called to, there's just so much music that you, that you can tap into and there's different kinds. So like start tapping into that. Maybe seek out some recipes and start seeing like what you really love, what you don't really like.Angela: And, and maybe like seeing maybe if you really love a dish or a certain song, like start researching the roots, where does it come from? Who are the artists that created it? So I think we can really use our intuition to see what we're naturally drawn to, because again, our ancestors are in our blood they're even if we're not conscious of it, they're guiding us and they're speaking through us.Angela: Even if it seems like we're, we're not, we're not in communication with them. They're always trying to, to tap in. So that's what I would recommend to start like diving in for sure.Dalia: I love that- so approachable. When you say the ancestors always speaking through us and guiding us, does that communication go in both directions?Dalia: Do you think it matters how you live your life as far as resolving previous hurts that maybe your ancestors weren't able to resolve in their lifetime?Angela: Yeah. So yes, I think it is, it is both ways. I actually believe in calling them in intentionally and that is how I started on my journey I did a meditation that kind of like opened up the portal for me.Angela: And from there, I just started to call them in and speak to them, pray to them. It's like another relationship, it has to be nourished. It takes some work to, to, to let them in, like you have free will as a human. So they're not going to just be like, Hey, you know, and barge in on you.Angela: You have to open up that door and you have to open up the lines of communication. If you wanna have consciously a relationship with them. And so in terms of like healing, the wounding, I think it's, it's gonna be definitely a journey and it's not gonna happen overnight.Angela: I think it's, it's something that if you feel called to ancestral work, this is definitely like you were chosen by your ancestors because they're. There are things and, and resources that they didn't have in order to heal. And now, as a, as a generation that has a ton of resources, you know, we have resources to therapy to just reeducation.Angela: I feel Google is just a resource on its own. We're also coming into this time of, of awakening just as a society, as a collective and as a wanting to also liberation, especially for BIPOC people. And so I think. That's why so many people have been wanting to connect with the ancestors because they know that they will give them the strength and the wisdom and the guidance that they need to heal those woundings that have permeated so much of their familial lineage. I think that's why we crave that connection, because again, it gives us a sense of belonging. It gives us a sense of strength and a wisdom that, that maybe, you know, if, if you're just starting your spiritual journey or like your reclamation journey maybe you haven't found it anywhere else.Angela: And I feel like ancestors give you just. Very grounded and, you know, they come from the earth, right? So they give you a very grounded wisdom and strength. And so I really believe yeah, that, that they support you on healing, that those booming, and we can definitely call them in and call their energy in it simply starts by opening yourself up to that, to that relationship.Dalia: Have you learned any of the names of your ancestors? Did you do a combination of trying to call them in and accessing information you could find about them?Angela: Yeah, so I actually have a spirit guide. Spirit guides for me are just a team of souls of spiritual souls that, that protect me and support me.Angela: And so we all have this, we all have a team. And so sometimes we have ancestors who are also our spirit guides. So I have one her name is Esmeralda and she is my ancestor from a very long time ago. So from the indigenous lineage and I met her through going through a meditation and wanting to meet other people in my spirit team.Angela: I had already met a few of them, but I knew I had a feeling that there was an, a sister there and I really wanted to tap into her energy. So, so that's how I met her. And other than that I've been doing also research. I actually just found out where my grandma from my mom's side was born was the land that she was born on.Angela: And she's the one that carries that, that indigenous blood. And so I was doing some research on the plants or just like anything, anything that I could find to connect me. So I'm actively trying to find more names. Sometimes I do get like, when I'm doing deep meditations or just like breathwork, breathwork is really great too in taking you really deep.Angela: Sometimes I don't even go intentionally trying to meet with my ancestors. They just find a way to, to enter because I have this open portal for them and they're welcome to come into my energy. So, so I have encounters with them like that.Angela: And I've, I've been able to get some, I can't remember now the exact name, but I, they do have very tribal indigenous names. And so it's been really healing and just also very empowering and, and beautiful to, to have those experiences with them and, and kind of like see a part of myself reflected in them.Dalia: So that brings up a couple of questions for me. I had wondered how do you get into that deeper meditative state? When you say breath work, what does that mean?Angela: Yeah, so breathwork is is just, it's another modality. There are breathwork practitioners. So it's it's I do it like that. Breathwork where you're taking three breaths. So you take the first breath taking an air from your belly, then your chest, and out through your mouth. And it takes you into a very meditative state.Angela: You just kind of get out of your head. And so these processes are usually around 30 to an hour. And so. There are breathwork tracks online that you can try. I found some on YouTube and I also have friends who are breathwork practitioners who, who use this service as a healing modality. So I recommend that because it's really powerful and using our breath to really get into our bodies and get out of our heads. And it's also a very healing modality for also any trauma that you have experienced. So I really I'm a fan of breath work and in terms of another modality that I really love any deep meditation. I find them on YouTube.Angela: For people that are maybe just starting out, maybe a guided meditation would be the best way to just, you know, maybe not, not one with a lot of words or just something to get you in the deep like relaxed state. And I think before you go to bed is like one of the best things, maybe like creating like a little nighttime routine. Yeah, maybe sitting at the edge of your bed before going to sleep. I think the nighttime is like a really good time to, to take advantage of just like your body is already getting into a meditative state because sleep is a meditative state.Angela: And even saying like a prayer. Call in your ancestors before you go to sleep and invite them into your dreams. Cause they can come into your dreams and kind of just do the work for you. You don't really have to do a meditation. Those are three ways that I would recommend to, to go into a deep meditative state.Dalia: When you're looking online for meditations how can you tell the difference between one that will take you deeper and maybe something that's more superficial, or what is the opposite of a deep meditation?Angela: Yeah, I personally don't like the ones that are short, the ones that are just like five to 10 min 10 minutes, because I feel like I need more time to, to really dive in.Angela: So the, the longer ones that have they usually have the music like singing bowls . So I think those, so I would look for ones that are around.Angela: I would say at least 25 minutes. Because that really allows you to give your mind time, to really soak, soak it and, and, and sit into that meditation. And so that's what I look for. And I look for ones that. I don't have so much of words, so many. I, I like to kind of go on my own and I like to create my own imagery in my head.Angela: But if people do like the guided ones, if that works better for you, then, then that's something that you can do. Just anything that maybe takes you into a relaxed day that creates some peace would be helpful.Dalia: Can you describe your concept of the afterlife? when you are calling the ancestors, what do you imagine they're doing? Are they not going to move on to some other place or some other thing? Where are they?Angela: Yeah. So that's a really great question. So I think when people move on into the afterlife, they become an infinite kind of energy. So they can really be everywhere at once. So I believe that they, they come into the energy that when they are invited into the energy. Once I really started to, okay, I'm going through a spiritual awakening and I'm really gonna dedicate myself to it.Angela: And once I made that decision, that's when. All the ancestral healing just like, started to, like, I started seeing it's just coming everywhere. And so it was signs, right? I think as soon as I opened myself up to they started to enter my energy space.Angela: When I call them in, because I know that they can be everywhere at once. They're just kind of like there, but when they, when I call on them I can feel them. Because I am so tuned into that. That's how I view what happens to a soul after and afterlife.Angela: It's about that opening being open to, to know that their energy is infinite. Hmm.Dalia: Now the people that are around you or the spirits that are around you that are a team that guide you, are they all blood relatives or can you have no children while you're here and end up as an ancestor.Angela: For me, it's it's mostly my family, but I, I tend to connect mostly with my. The ancestors that lived a very long time ago. So the indigenous ancestors I can connect with with the people that let's say my grandma from one generation ago, but I, I feel that. The I'm for some reason, I feel very connected to the indigenous part and that's probably cuz something in me wants to be activated through that.Angela: My work usually involves the family, like the, the blood relatives, but I have heard other. Other people that do ancestral work and ancestral remembrance that also consider the people that steward their land like ancestors or just people that were close to the family. So it doesn't necessarily have to be blood relatives.Angela: I do know other people that are considered ancestors that are exactly related to blood. So I think it's really anyone that you, that you, that you or your family, or just anything that, that was surrounding that you felt very connected to. I think a big thing is also like the ancestors of the land.Angela: I would definitely consider, you know, the people that steward the land that I stand on as ancestors, because they took care of our land and they, we have this place to live because of them.Angela: And so I think it's like an emotional connection there. I think ancestors don't have to be necessarily blood it just needs to have a connection. Like what connection do you have there with them?Dalia: You mentioned that you do readings for people. Can you describe your gifts to us more and how you use them to help other people and to guide you in how you live your life?Angela: Yeah, so I connect with the energies around you. So I can connect to your spirit guides. I can connect to your ancestor lineage or through mediumship or an a past ancestor. I can also connect to your highest self, your soul. I use this as a way to kind of gain clarity for people so people come to me when they're not sure, they're kind of like a little bit in their heads and, and they feel kind of disconnected, they're not sure if they're the right path or how to really embody more of their soul.Angela: I use my gifts to tap into their spiritual team and to give them the guidance right from a pure place, from a place that knows them all and, and supports them in everything. A lot of the time the, the spirits are funny because, or just like the spiritual realm, because they tend to like lead you back to yourself.Angela: It's kind of like, you know the answer and you have the answers inside of you, but they do try to, you know, give you the, the clarity and the direction that you need to find a way. So I feel like the, that journey, they always seem to have this saying where it's kind of like you are right here right now for purpose and this obstacle, this challenge that you're going through right now it's taking you to where you need to go. It's kind of like the journey is needed here so you can get to your highest self , to your true self and to your most pure self, to your most whole self.Angela: So that is what I do in my readings. I go with the intention of the client, what they need if they're going through a transition or if they really wanna reconnect with, you know, their lineage. So we go in there and we get as much information as we can to really give them that clarity and also the comfort in knowing that they are supported.Angela: And they're actually a pure being that has so much guidance available to them.Dalia: That sounds incredible. I know today you came prepared to offer us a little entry point into a meditation or having an ancestral remembrance practice. Can you introduce us to that?Angela: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Okay. So. Let's dive right in.Angela: So if you can I invite you to close your eyes. If you can't close your eyes, just simply focus on a certain spot around you. And I want you to invite you to go ahead and take three deep breaths.Angela: And when you exhale, I want you to make a sigh or make an audible sound.Angela: Alright now, I'm gonna invite you to go ahead and just move your body the way that it wants to just give yourself a little wiggle. Maybe you have some tight spots. Maybe you've just been sitting after a long day. Just give yourself some movement so we can really get into the body and allow spirit to move through us.Angela: When you're ready, I want you to go ahead and just place your hands, wherever it feels right. So maybe, maybe on your heart, maybe on your stomach, maybe on your legs, whatever makes you feel most comfortable. And I want you to go ahead and imagine a white light coming in from the crown of your head all the way down to your toes.Angela: So you're gonna imagine it slowly cleansing your entire body. So going through your throat, going through your heart, through your stomach, through your legs, and exiting out through your toes.Angela: And from here, I want you to imagine a yellow golden light right in the middle of your eyebrows. And this is where your third eye lies, this is where your intuition lies, and you're gonna notice this light just permeating your entire forehead, then you're gonna see it extend out into your body. And now to the surroundings, and you are gonna see it extend out as far as you can imagine out into the earth.Angela: And as you see it connect to the earth, you're going to thank the earth just internally for her healing presence for supporting you and supporting your lineage and activating this connection that we're about to embark on.Angela: And now that the earth has reflected this beautiful energy back into your aura. You're gonna see this light coming back into your surroundings, coming back into your body, coming back into your aura, and coming back into your third eye.Angela: And now I'm gonna invite you to do a prayer, to call in your ancestors. So you can repeat this prayer internally or externally. Do whatever feels right. Whatever feels right is perfect. So we're gonna go ahead and say, I invite in my ancestors right now. I call in their presence. I call in their guidance. I call in their strength.Angela: I call in their wisdom.Angela: I invite the ancestors with divine intention to make contact with me in the way that they know they can. I open up myself to receive their wisdom and their guidance and any moment that is available to me.Angela: I trust that I am supported and guided by my ancestors, who long to make connection with me. And I open myself up to receive their magic.Angela: And just let that permeate every inch of your being.Angela: And now I invite you to simply say, thank you. Thank you for this moment. Thank you to your ancestors for bringing you here. In this moment for giving you what you have for giving you the wisdom and the strength to make it to where you are today.Angela: And now from here, you can trust that this relationship with your ancestors is officially opened. As you have opened up your heart to them and to receive their guidance.Angela: Alright. So we're gonna just go ahead and quickly close by taking another, just three deep breaths. And remember to just make a sound to just let out any energy that might have moved through when you exhale.Angela: Alright. When you're ready, just go ahead and open your eyes and come back into the space.Dalia: Thank you so much for that.Angela: You're welcome.Dalia: You mentioned you're welcomed that dancing could be a way to ground yourself. Can you give us a couple of other things that can ground you?Angela: Yes. So I do have some tools in my toolbox, so I really love just simply breathing. Like we just did the breathing, filling up your belly and bringing it up to your chest and, and exhaling with a sound has been so grounding for me, especially because I noticed that throughout the day my breath is very shallow.Angela: And so really taking the moment to just let the breath fill my body up with life is one, one beautiful way to ground yourself. And especially if you find yourself in triggering moments breath bringing your attention back into the breath is, is really grounding. Another thing for me, I, I also recommend music, music, especially something that, that is tied to your ancestral lineage.Angela: So anything that, that kind of just reminds you of home is, is something that I love to. To just, you know, put everything away and just kind of like sit in my bed and listen to music. I feel so grounded in that as well as nature. Nature is a natural resource. If you don't live in the city, you can just go outside and just be like on the grass. Taking off your shoes and putting your your feet on the earth is, is incredibly healing because you're taking in that the Earth's frequency. So those are like my few favorite ways. I also obviously like meditation as well, and just sitting in silence and noticing, you know, I think people have the misconception that meditation is about clearing your mind. I really just like to, to use it as a way for self self-awareness when I'm just doing meditations by myself. because it just allows me to drop in. Okay. Like what's in my head right now.Angela: How can I bring myself back to center? And it just kind of creates this again, this relationship with myself. So those are like a few of my tools to get grounded.Dalia: that is so helpful. Where can people find you if they'd like to learn more or wanna know how to work with you? Yeah, so I hang out a lot on Instagram.Angela: My Instagram handle is @iamangelajo. It stands for my middle name. And then I am working on my website. I don't ha I don't have website currently, but on Instagram you can find any links and, and you can find out how to work me, work with me there.Dalia: Perfect. Thank you so much. Angela: Thank you so much for having me.I hope you enjoyed that and that you will take out the time to connect with Angela's work. If you are still on Instagram, check her out there, or you can just jump on her mailing list, visit her site and grab that meditation. I loved the invitation to the ancestors to connect and that she included that prayer for us really resonated to me and felt really helpful. You would think when it comes to spiritual things, we wouldn't be worried about doing things the right way all the time or thinking that things need to be prescribed. But a lot of the religious traditions that we have grown up with are very prescribed and they don't feel accessible. And there was generally another person there to tell you precisely how things should go or someone who serves as an intermediary. So it is a little bit of a reach sometimes when you start exploring spiritual practices that are more independent. And that actually allow you more freedom. Sometimes you get freedom at you don't know exactly what to do with it. So I really appreciate that she modeled that for us. And that she offered such a simple entry point to starting to explore ancestor remembrance practices. If that's something we feel called to do. Remember if you haven't already picked up your copy of Decolonizing Wellness it is now available all over the place. The book is full of helpful exercises that you can do to feel more present in your body to feel more connected to your intuition and to your whole self, instead of just little parts of ourselves that have been deemed worthy or acceptable by the world around us. If you are listening to this episode on a podcast player, and you're not listening to on Substack. I highly encourage you to follow the show on https://daliakinsey.substack.com/ because, in addition to getting this episode every month, there is a blog post on the 15th of every month. And for people who are supporting members of the show, there's also a bonus. As always, thank you so much for being here. I'll see you next time. 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nothing micro about micro aggressions

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 1, 2022 59:26

Angela:You I have I've had troubles with the word microaggression, I've had troubles with it for quite some time. We hear, I think I've been hearing it more and more over the last few years in particular, the last year, I've been hearing it a lot more in the workplace. And because people are trying to be woke or aware, but the reality of living it, it's not micro,Patty:right. it's not meaningless.Angela:And so when we, for me, when we talk about it as a micro thing, the parallel is that when somebody is behaving that way, it becomes a dialogue or a narrative of that person's too sensitive, or I didn't mean anything by it. So I don't know what the big deal about it is, or, well, you know, she's just bringing it up, because she's hurt. And it's not, it's not about being hurt, it's about every instance of those things that have transpired over your life for a long period of time, continuing to open a wound of a larger viewpoint that you don't belong, or there's something not quite right with you, or those, we have to contain you, as opposed to the larger picture that you're not wanted to hear. And, or you're not wanted to be a participant in that society, or that structure in within the society.And so, for me, when I've been looking at this end, a lot of my writing over the last year has been about microaggressions, because of experiencing it, and while, you know, a lot lot different areas of my life. I go back to the beginning point of erasure. So, the eraser of, of my identity. So you know, being born, being taken from my Black mother, my birthday being changed, my name being changed, and my Black mother not being allowed to take me back to Jamaica, or make arrangements for me to go to Jamaica, because realizing that it's, she's going to lose me, right?So, and then that whole erasure are going to a small community where there's no people of color. And so I think one of the biggest macro regressions you can do to transracial adoptee, is to put them in a white family and not have any mentors. And, and so in that, you know, that whole, it becomes a series of events from from earlier in your childhood, basically, from your birth, to try to unpack, and try to find a place within living in a social structure that doesn't include you. And so how do we find that?So, you know, my writing is about that, but it's also that place of moving from that place to a place of where do you find your place within all of that, so that you can actually have good mental health? Is that possible? You know, and what is the generational impact of that?When I watched my, my son growing up, and facing these horrible aggressions, as a Black Indigenous child, young man, he's not a child. He's a young man.And I was, you know, I was gonna, with all that, you know, been paying attention to and relistening to interviews from in particular Robin Maynard and Desmond Cole, and defund the police. I’ve been listening to a lot of that lately. And I was framing an essay around around the police involvement in my life, and what and the transition of that from being a young young girl in kindergarten to late teens, early 20s. And that, and that experience, and so I never really thought much about it. But I've thought more and more about it by watching my son get stopped by the police. Recently, you know, in, in his teenage years, he shared with me recently that the reason he decided to go bald, from the time he was like 14 to 20 was because he found that he got stopped less by the police. So, I thought, yeah, and it didn't help. He still got stopped a lot. As he's got a look that people quite don't know. You know what he is right? Which is really a horrible thing to say. But that's,Patty: I don't know, they don't know where he belongs, do you belong in this neighborhood? Or do you work in this neighborhood? What do you look like, you know, do you look like the people who live here? Do you look like the people who work here? You know, do you look like the people who you know who I think are going to be dangerous here. You know? Who have no business being here.In the book Traces of History that I did that I just finished, he, he quotes a woman who's saying, you know, when we talk about dirt? Well, all we're really talking about is things out of place. Right? That's all we're really talking about, you know, you know, things are, you know, I don't particularly object to dirt, you know, being out in my yard, I don't want it, I don't want it in my living room, I'm gonna vacuum it, I'm gonna say that it's dirty, you know, or dust or, you know, any of the things that my dogs drag like they have their place.And you know, and as, you know, racially marginalized people we're dirt, we're out of place. And we know, you know, so you know, to be racially marginalized, in the colonial West, is to be forever out of place, you know, whether you're Black or Indigenous, or some combination, you're out of place, you know, you're meant to be erased, you're meant to be moved around, you're meant to be, you know, you're meant to serve, particularly, you know, serve sort of particular purposes.And, and I am increasingly using the term racially marginalized, as opposed to just racialized because when I say that somebody is racialized, I'm still centering whiteness as not being racialized. Right? And, you know, so it's more words, and it takes up more, you know, more characters on Twitter. But yeah, that's okay. But I feel like, you know, that's just something because when I, because that's what we were racially marginalized, and it's the race has pushed us to the margins and centered whiteness, but their whiteness is racialized as well to its own purpose. So that's just kind of explaining a little bit about my language.Angela:Well, I like that when you say “to its own purpose” to clarify, because I think that that's important in when we share and talk about our stories into in particular, and I'll use your term racially marginalized. And, you know, I really wanted to talk about the police stuff, because it occurred to me how early that involvement is, like, I never really thought about it.But when I was working on this essay, I was talking about, you know, when I, when I was five years old, I was pretty determined young person, which probably got me a lot of trouble with my mother. But I was very determined so. And I really liked school. I like being at school much more than I like being in my parents’ home. So I was just set to go to school, and it was a PD day or some holiday or something. So I got up. And my, you know, mind you, my parents had three kids, they adopted four Black kids, so they, you know, and I was the youngest, so they somehow missed me in that whole thing. So I got dressed, and I went to school. And I didn't even notice that there wasn't anybody else. Any kids walking to school, I was just on my own determined to get to see my kindergarten teacher because I loved her, I was absolutely in love with this teacher. So anyways, I get to the school. And there's no school, I can't get into school. And I feel that I'm locked out. Like, I feel like nobody wanted me. So I'm crying. And I'm trying to get into school, and I'm banging on the doors. And finally I decide to leave and I'm walking up the path to go back to my parents house and a police car shows up. And the police says, “Are you Angela?” And I said, “Yes.” “Your mother's looking for you.” So I get in the back of the car, and I go home.And so the idea is framed in my mind is that the police saved me they from what I'm not sure, but they saved me from something. And you know, a couple years later, my favorite bike, my parents bought me this bike and I love this bike was stolen one weekend when we were away. So when we got back from this trip, the first thing I wanted to see is if my bike was okay, so I run and get, I look for my bike and it's not there. So my parents called the police and two weeks later they find my bike. And I overhear the conversation with the police. And what they say to the to my parents is we found in somebody’s back yard, not off the Herkimer drive and and they were “known to us.” So this is a very this is a key that they were “known to us.”So years go by and I'm 12/13 years old, and I'm out playing with my friends and my parents knew where I was the police show up. And they the police knew exactly where I was. So my parents knew exactly where I was, but they called the police to come and get me to bring me home rather than getting into the car. And this is what I'm setting up and what you know, Robyn Maynard talks about in terms of the police being involved with, you know, overly involved with people that are in care, right. And my parents used the police as part of their parenting, so they the police would show up and bring me home.And it and it didn't occur to me at the time, like I was embarrassed that this wasn't happening to any my white friends. So I was the only Black kid there, I was the only person of color. And so the police would come, and they would pick me up and take me home. And every now and again, my father would joke about well, I was at the mall, well, we weren't sure if we needed to call the police to come and get you. And as we got a bit older, my mother she had, by this point, she'd gone back to school. And later, in probably 48-ish, she went back to school, got her grade 12 became a social worker, and became very involved the police because she, part of her work was investigating social welfare fraud at the time.So she continued to use the police to parent her Black children. So, every time I use the phone, there was a card by the phone, it was taped to the wall that had inspector so and so's name. And it got to the point where I stopped using that phone, I wouldn’t go downstairs and use the phone because I always saw that I move out of the house when I was 16. I'm on my own, I get into some trouble. Not bad trouble. But I get into some trouble. I was drunk and I broke somebody’s door and you know, stupid teen stuff. But this person where I'm staying called the police, because I broke the door rather than have a conversation with me. She called the police. And so the first thing that police said to her, “Oh, we know Angela Gray, she's known to us.” And this person tells me that and I'm thinking how am I known to them. I've never been arrested. I've never shoplifted not at that time. But by that point, like I'd never been arrested. You know, the only involvement that they had with me was because of my parents’ use of them to help parent.And so we carry, you know, I've carried this idea of the police as being the savior. And by that point, by the time I was 16, I was petrified of the police, to the point where if I saw a police car drive by, I would duck and hide. And I did that pretty much up until my son was born. And then I had to just sort of get over that because I needed to use the police. And in the end, they actually really helped me. But that feeling still hasn't gone away. And that feeling is still in that involvement is still in my life today, even though they're not tracking me down they’re tracking my son.You know, he was out for we thought that this had stopped and earlier in the year us out for dinner with his girlfriend. And the police saw his girlfriend and then saw him outside of the restaurant came into the restaurant and ask them for ID and pull their computer up, set it up on the bar and searched to see if he had, probably if he had any priors, in front of everybody in this restaurant when he was trying to have a nice dinner.And there's a few things that came to mind here for me is nobody said anything. Not even the waiter or the manager, nobody said anything. And he came into the bathroom and called me. And he was so distraught by it, that he thought he was disturbing me, his mother who loves him the most in the world. He apologized to me for calling me about a really horrific situation.And so I bring that up in that this is the programming that happens with this stuff, and puts us at outside of society thinking that there's something wrong with us. We’re not quite right, these thoughts. I had this dialogue with my therapist a couple weeks ago, because I'm dealing with some of this in in a couple areas of my life dealing with these significant microaggressions and trying to unpack them to find my voice in them so that I can stand up for myself and not be taking it on. And so what comes up for me though, is that there's still that little voice that there's something not quite right. There's something kind of off about me. And I have to correct myself and say, we need to unpack the larger society, the colonialism, all of that stuff that is not quite right.And how do we come back to ourselves and continue to unpack that so that it's not taking up our entire weekend? I was dealing with a board member from a volunteer organization all weekend because I called her out on her microaggression towards me. And what I was met with was some horrible, horrific emails.Patty: They always say, I'm not racist, I'm not racist.Angela:And you're insulting me that you're calling me out on poor behavior, and you're just sensitive. Right? And other people will chime in and say, well, Angela, I understand that you're hurt. And I'm, no, no, no, I am not hurt. This is not about hurt. The issue is much deeper than this. And I'm not going to do it in an email dialog. But if you want to talk to me about it, I will talk to you. Right. And these are the things that we have to keep unpacking and correcting and living our lives and then eat this thing. What's the point? Why am I doing this?Patty: Yeah, yeah, it's exactly what and then when you talk about the police, you know, being known to police, you know, 16 years of child welfare, that's got consequences. Right, like you call, you know, like, you know, like, you get a police report about something, because in some neighborhoods, people are just in each other's business all the time. And so they're calling the police, because they can't parent, they can't problem solve. So they call on the police all the time, because, you know, they can't find their, you know, you know, they go get their kid, or, you know, they're having a dispute with a neighbor or something. And then if there's children within eyesight of a cop, those they send that report into child welfare.And then, and then that phrase, they're known to us, they're known to us. And it could be completely benign, like what you're describing, it's parents that are using the police to parent their child, or because you can't, or because your neighbor can't problem solve and calls the police on you all the time. Right. And yet, that little phrase, they're known to us, they're known to us. And that gets interpreted a very particular way in child welfare. Now try it now try to get rid of this, now try to get rid of the social worker, something, something must Something must be going on, something must be going on. We don't know what it is yet, but we're going to find out, something must be going on.And that's, you know, when you know what you even say, you know, you've got a, you know, you got help, you know, the one time that you, you know, you needed them, and they were helpful to you. And I know, you know, Kerry and I had had a good experience, you know, you know, in our working relationship, but wouldn't it be nice if they were non carceral systems where people could get that kind of support. Just because just because we got a little bit of help here and there from the systems, that's how they suck us in. That doesn't legitimize them.Kerry: It's so interesting, like, I've just been really listening to you, Angela, and your story. And first, I just want to mention and witness you, as you've moved through the process. You know, I'm, I feel it very deeply, because your story, you know, has been very similar. There are some tendrils that make a lot of sense, in my own experiences with having to deal with the police as well. And I know that it's just that commonality, that space of being Black and dealing with, you know, officers, and that system is a factor, it's just what we have to do as people of color to grapple with the space.I know even till this day, and I like you had have like this very conflicted relationship with the, with police, because literally, they they have saved my life when I was in a very detrimental situation. I however, it took, I had to go 20 times before I got it there. There was a lot of disregard in some of it. But when I finally got it, it came through and it won for me. So I have this conflicted space, but I also and even now, when a police officer drives past me, I flinch. It is I am still dealing with some of the residual because as I've had that positive experience, I've also had some very negative ones where you know, the neighborhood I live in presently presently. Is is all white. There's myself and another family, there's probably a subdivision about 500 houses, there's another family, there's an I just found out one moved in. So there's three of us out of about 500 houses.And we used to very often notice officers just driving by, sitting at the end of our line that was involved in the system and had some things going on. But since that cleared up, and it's been about a year, now, I've noticed that there's no more officers anywhere in the vicinity of where I live, whereas about at least three times a week, one would sit somewhere, and we're a very quiet crescent, it's a very quiet little crescent, cul de sac, it doesn't make any sense that they would be here on the regular, you know, so, um, you know, those experiences are, are really hard. And I could tell there's, there's so many I lived, I have our came from a family where we had five young men, teenagers, and it would be without fail. One of those young men, and my husband, somebody would be stopped by the police at least once a week and asked for IDAngela:and, and that whole thing, right? Like that, that whole space of public humiliation to be stopped outside of your house to be, you know, and it crosses over from, you know, that sort of involvement, but from the police and the, the taking on of the role in say retail, right? So it wasn't very long ago is about three or four years ago, I was walking into a store. On my way home from work, I was walking home, and I thought, oh, that place has some funky shirts. I think I go in there. And I was outside looking on the rack. And the store owner came out. And he looked at me and he says, Yeah, I don't think we have anything in the store that fits you.Kerry: You know, I had an experience in one of our local stores recently, my daughter and I, this was before the for this last lockdown. We were in a drugstore. That's what I'll say, in our region. And we were by the makeup section, looking for a lipstick I think it was and we got the exact same response. I was looking for our particular red. And they were like, Yeah, we don't have it. But then when I looked around, I was like, it's right there. And they were like, No, we don't, we don't have it. And I was like, but it's right there. That's exactly the color I looked it up before it got here. And she was like no, because it had to be they had it behind the case. And she was like, No, that's not it. Sorry. And because I was like, I'm gonna leave this to Jesus moment, I was having to leave it to Jesus moment. Instead of instead of, you know, I just I just decided I was going to leave the store.But that is the reality of some of how we have to exist. And in fact, there's another one more story before we we can you know, move on. I have I mentioned to you that there's another family that moved into this area. And she she bought a house on the street. That's pretty it's really a private kind of section of this subdivision. And you know, the houses were this neighborhoods about 30 years old, most people don't move so she just recently purchased and you know what have stood out like, you know, she's new. She was bought, bought her groceries, opening her front door trying to get in and a car drove past her and slowed down, took a big old look then sped off and sped away. within about five minutes. She was taking the her you know, stuff out she has three kids so you know you're gonna have a whole pile of stuff. within about five minutes. Two officers pulled up at the front door and said they had had a report of somebody breaking into this house.Angela:*sighs*Patty: Right. So nice to feel welcome and safe.Angela:In 2021,Kerry: and I think, you know, when we speak about these incidences, we're recognizing that there there's been some sort of shift, I think, you know, some people have that felt really brazen, in the realm of watching what has happened in the United States, and when Trump was in power, I almost think that there was like a refueling of this space, where, you know, people thought they can be bright and outright with with some of this racist dialogue,Patty: For sure, he normalized it and empower them. And I admit, I had there was a woman on Facebook I was engaging with, she had made a comment that, you know, it was so easy to, you know, she'd give this to Trump, you know, having it out in the open, where we could see, we could see the ugly racism. And I was trying to get her to understand that one if she had just been listening to Black and Indigenous people all along, right. None of this is new. You know, Standing Rock and Ferguson, I never tire of reminding people Standing Rock and Ferguson happened on Obama's watch, having a Black man in the White House, did not save Black people did not save Indigenous people having Deb Haaland, she might be a great pick, but having her as the head of the Minister of the Interior, whatever they are, will not save the Indians. Right. She's not even the first Ely Parker was right first. Curtis came after him, he was a vice president. So she's not the first and but you know, these things, you know, these, these things don't save us.And yet, you know, she didn't, she didn't get what I was trying to tell her is that having it out, and normalized and empowered, is killing us. People are literally dying. Because as you said, Kerry, these white supremacist feel empowered, they can act on it, they think, you know, they don't have they don't have to be in secret anymore. I like them better when they were secret, and not burning s**t down and shooting everybody. Please go back underground and keep your s**t to yourself. I know you're there. I know, you're there. The racisms still happen. The police are still who they are. The systems are still in place. But I like you better when you're quiet. And you're not in my space.Kerry: This is not doing us a favor. When you're working in that kind of stealth, you understood that there was maybe a semblance of a chance for a consequence. But when you are just bracing with your stuff, that tells us that we have now stepped up into a level. Now, when you're outright like that, there, there is that sense of of knowing that we I've for me, we've crossed that boundary, you know, where we got to really almost level up now. Because the reality of the truth is, if you're if you can feel so bright with yourself, then that means that there's an inference that the system is working on a level that is keeping us you know, having to be directly in this confrontation.And yeah, and I'm I'm recognizing though I'm enjoying some of the dialogues. I was looking up I've been watching a young woman, Kim Foster, from For Harriet, she's she's a YouTube, a young woman, brilliant, brilliant young woman. She talks quite a bit about pop culture, but she's a feminist. And she's a Black feminist. And she is very much about dissecting these kinds of issues. And she had on and did an incredible talk about restorative justice, with I'm just looking it up but she had this incredible talk. And what they were talking about is completely pulling down and decriminalized, not just decriminalizing, but abolishing the system and what it could potentially look like when we you know, replace it or, you know, whatever that realm would be knowing that you know, going in with the understanding and the knowing that it's kind of a trial and error space, you know what I mean that you we may have to try many things before we could reconstruct or create something that is going to value and create real sense of justice.Because what what was mentioned in it, and I thought it was powerful is that she was saying that, you know, for many people, especially they were talking in particular about using it in domestic or intimate partner violence. And that's something that's near and dear to my heart. But what she was speaking about is that for most people, sometimes you get that sense that feeling of completeness, when you, you know, your your partner has been punished, and it's punitive. But a lot of the time, in those kinds of systems, you still come out, even if your partner goes through it, without that sense of feeling completed, that you really have had justice served. And what I thought was so brilliant about that conversation was what she was interested in, the lawyer that she was speaking to, was interested in creating a space that was based upon what the want of the person who had had the injustice done to them, what would be their idea of justice, you know, for some, it may be, you know, you lock them up for 50 years, and, and that be one end of it. But for others, it might be the apology and writing the right. Do you know what I'm saying, um, maybe it's you paying for my counseling that I may need, because you've caused me this harm. Maybe it would be, you know, paying these damages. But what I thought was so wonderful was that it gave the options, the idea of really going with who, and what my desires and wants would be, after I've been through a space like that, versus it being, you know, a system that throws everybody in and may, you know, not deal with the needs at all, in fact, or create huger chasms for people who are going through those spaces.And we know that, you know, like, especially in a space like domestic violence, a lot of the times an officer is probably not necessarily the first point of contact, or are the best point of contact, right? Wouldn't it be great to have somebody who has the training, understand what is happening, because we know, for many people, you don't leave on that first try or those first incidences, and dealing with the whole scope of what happens when we're moving through a situation that can be so layered in the way that we look at it?You know, I just, I just when we talk about this conversation, of being, because to me, we're talking macro aggressions. And a lot of the ways you're right, the micro and the macro pulled together, what what is not, I think, often address is the deep layers of ongoing trauma that these exposures cause us. You know, it is it's ongoing, it's, it's, it's just like a, you know, it's like the, the this heavy load that sits on our shoulders in every moment, I never know, like, the other day, an officer pulled up behind me. And I remember just doing this my instant sense, and everything's good. I'm not worried. But until he went around me, I'm like, ooh. And it shouldn't, I shouldn't have to have those sensations. And that's still after having a positive look.But I remember the 20 times that I'm, you know, my 12 year old, got pulled over over the space of five years. You know, like, I remember those incidences, I remember having to take the the numbers and the badge names down of all of these different officers when they were approaching us. I remember an officer, like we were in the middle of an emergency situation, and trying to defuse it amongst our own, amongst a group of Black kids and my husband getting hauled down and put in on the ground, even though he was the one that was being able to mitigate the situation. But you know, the colors all the same. And it's, it's those experiences that have left that imprint in the space of this. And I just really think there has to be a better way that we can engage and create different spaces for this. I'm all for abolition, like abolish, abolition. abolishing police and and that system, it doesn't serve us in the best way? And what would it be to allocate these funds into, you know, the work and the trauma work, especially amongst our communities that have been marginalized, we so don't get access to some of those resources that would help us go through and create the healing that we still need.Patty: And that's that that's actually one of the big critiques about restorative justice work, is when you put it back on the victim to say, okay, you know, you, you know, what do you want? What do you need, what you're getting what you're what you're getting from them as a trauma response. You're getting your get your, and you're making it there, you're making everyone's healing the victims responsibility, particularly in domestic violence cases. But in any case, where you've been wronged when now, you know, so there's other model models out there where somebody takes responsibility for the wrong door. And the purpose then is healing. So the person who's taken responsibility for the wrongdoer is basically working with that person. And when they come together, it's basically How's everybody's healing going? Are we there? Do we still need more time? Do you feel safe? What do you need to feel safe? You know, and, and, you know, and then those people are the ones that are saying, okay, you know, what this, he's, he's still got a lot of work to do, she still got a lot of work to do, we're not there yet. And so there's space for the victim to talk about what they need and how they need to feel safe. But the ultimate, you know, the, the ultimate burden of restoration or healing is on that other person and whoever is responsible for them. Because it is a trauma response, we've dealt with a lot. We've dealt with a lot, particularly when we get to that place. And so I'm not opposed to restorative justice work. But there's just been a lot of critique around that model of putting it all on putting it all on the victim.Kerry: Well, I believe that a part of that discussion, and I love that we can have that conversation, because I think it's very individualized. And I think that the the idea that one model fits all, is it a part of where this fails? For me, you know, what I mean? Where the system has failed, is that my response and even how I'm going to show up in my trauma may not be the same as somebody else. Right. So I think that, you know, there's a lot to flesh out. I think that it would be, as we said, that idea of recognizing that there isn't going to be a one necessarily a one sock fits all. But But I love the idea of having those conversations, and figuring out what will work what what, you know, what,Patty: what does, what does this situation need? What are the harms that have been done and what does this situation need?Kerry: There are some cases where absolutely, you know, like, I'm not speaking personally, but I was very glad that some people got locked up around my space, I was very glad it was needed, you know. And, and that was justice for me. But I could also see how, for some of it, there, we there, there could have been more, right. And I and I just wish that those opportunities, these dialogues were available in those spaces. And I'm very encouraged that no matter what the you know, we come up with, we're starting to talk about it, we're starting to offer new ways of coming up with something that's just different than a system that we know, feeds very deeply into a capitalist agenda of, you know, putting people in jail so that they can create goods and commodities, we at least we're starting to have those conversations. Now how that's serving us in the interim. Um, you know, that's, that's still the work in progress, I guess.Angela:I think that, you know, from one of the things that I continue to go back to, in particular, when I was going through the police legal stuff around my adoptive family, in particular, my job for parents, is that and we, I grew up believing that the legal system was a justice system. And until we as, as a community as a people can reconcile that, if we need it will make space to have those deeper conversations about what it could be. But we're not living in that world we're living in a legal system that doesn't create justice. So we need to stop thinking that that's what his purposes I don't think that that for me, I don't think that that's what the purpose is for that system.So to talk about changing something, the conversation has to be a the broader conversations, and almost maybe from a from philosophy, philosophy perspective around really what justice and democracy is, what is it? Because we're not, we're not living that. And we're certainly not living it as it was construed, you know, from our Greek and Italian philosophers. And I just go back there because I have an interest in philosophy, I think we can have some greater discussions around democracy. And there's actually a really great the National Film Board put out a really good documentary called what is what is democracy. And it goes through everything that we're talking about in terms of our legal system and our prison system. And, and, you know, where is the space for the victim to have a conversation, a meet, and I don't know what that could be. Because I can sit down and say, there's no way that I could have a conversation with my adoptive parents, even though at one time I wanted that, because until somebody is able to recognize the harm that they've done to another, we can't have these conversations. And so what do we do in the interim? I do think that money should be taken away from the police and put into community resources that just makes sense, like this just not make sense like to havePatty: How does that not make sense. It makes sense to everybody except police and people who want to keep their neighborhoods white. Those are the only people that it makes sense to, or that it doesn't that they want the police to keep having money.Angela:Right. But I do in terms of the micro aggressions and the macro aggressions when I was talking to a lawyer recently, who she's not she's my friend, she's a good friend. And she sometimes we have these discussions she's bring brings in it from a lawyer, and and somewhat of a justice perspective, cuz she's a human rights lawyer. But one of the things she was talking to me about in a situation that I then I'm currently struggling with and working through is what, when this all gets sorted out? What's going to be given to you like, are they going to provide you with some extra counseling? Are they going to, you know, pay for some days off? Like, what are they going to give to you for having to experience a situation for the last 20 months.And I think that in these systems, what I'm learning is that it's hard to voice those things. When I watch my son, you know, you should do something about this. And he's like, it's wrong. So I'm not going to go up against the police. What do you think they're going to do the next time when they look at me in the system? And know? And fair enough, right? And when we have these systems, how do we voice our concerns in a way that doesn't continue to diminish and dismiss us in terms of, I'm not hurt? This is just not just? Can we can we change the dialogue around what the impact is that every time you get stung by that micro aggression be? It opens up that wound and continues and continues? And then you're 30 years later? And you're still dealing with the police that fucked you up when you're 14, right?And so it is when can we have those greater discussions around justice and ended up democracy and inclusion from a macro level distinguishing against that, that does not those discussions does not fit into a capitalist market. It doesn't, because it's a it's some, the commodity of information shifts when we're talking about capitalism. So the information that we are processing and giving and discussing in that model isn't going to work for us. And I don't know what it is, I spent a week in February, listening to Black Buddhists Summit out of the states. So these are Black people that practice Black people that practice Buddhism, because they found within the Buddhist sect that there is there's issues around inclusion. And one of the one of the speakers that I really, really liked was when he was talking about the impact of microaggressions on a larger level, is that we as Black people, as people of color, need to find our ways to step back from that, knowing ourselves like so and he was encouraging Black people themselves to go to other countries to be around Black people to see that it's different there as opposed to what it is in the States.Patty: Well, that your experience in Jamaica.Angela:Exactly, exactly. And one of the things that a friend of mine, my hairdresser said to me, before I went, he said, you're going to find a deeper strength within yourself, you're going to feel more empowered, you're going to feel more empowered to get out there and do. And somehow he's right. Like, I feel like, I don't feel as much of that there's something off with me feeling that you just kind of carry around on your shoulder, not not wanting to look at it, but knowing that it's there. It's not, it's not that I'm off. It's this community that I'm living in the society that I'm living, that's kind of off.Kerry: I love that. You know, it was interesting. You mentioned Patty, earlier when Obama got in, I remember speaking with some,Patty: Yay we’re in a post racial world! The racisms are over!Kerry: That whole idea that, above all, there's no more racism. And and that was kind of a conversation I was having with some of my American friends. Right. And I was, we were kind of, you know, yay, celebrating. But, um, for me, and I remember my husband and I to we were like, Yeah, this is great. And it's, it was so monumental for them, but for myself and for and for my husband, we come from Antigua, and Barbados, right? Where there have been Black Prime Ministers all day, every day. You know what I mean, so the experience of this was monumental. And of course, it was amazing, you know, for whatever it was worth or wasn't worth, you know, whatever. But that that piece of, of what you were saying, Angela really resonates with me in that regard, because they're, each community has the experience of, you know, in the diaspora of what it is to be in our Blackness. I know when I go to Antigua, everybody looks like me and then some, the shopkeepers are all Black, you know, if you had a white teacher, something was weird. Whereas in our experience, if you had a Black teacher, something was weird.Patty: I don't think I ever had a Black teacher. I can't. I think in college, in college, I had one Black teacher in college, and, you know, university, it was at Niagara University. So that would have been my third year I, but I didn't think of a Black teacher in high school. I know there wasn't one in elementary school. I can't think of one in high school. I don't think I had one when I was in college. But even but even just, you know, to continue dragging the Obama years, the movie Get Out. Right? Well, you know, when you had said, you know, we're talking about Obama's election and the movie Get Out where he says I would have voted for Obama a third time if I like that movie was written during the Obama administration. That's when Peele was thinking about it and writing about it, so he's not, it's not about Trump level racists it’s about white liberals. The people think they're the good guys.Kerry: That Trumps nowPatty: That’s who he is skewering in that movie and nobody gets it they all think that they're not like that. You can vote for Obama as many times as you like. You can have one you know you can have brunch with your Black friends. Racists always have Black friends, it blows my mind it's always the same one I think there might be two of you out there that are friends with all this white foolishnessAngela:Oh, it's when your white friends tell you sincerely you know Angela I don't see colour, and I love this person I do I see her good and I and that's where I have to go always is actually you know I just don't see your color I don't understand and I just and and I you know after the third time hearing that I just said okay, look, look, if you don't see my color, then clearly you don't see me, you don't see my experience. You didn't hear it when I told you about the guy giving the monkey sounds when I was crossing the street. You didn't hear it when I was told that that you know stop going into a store. Clearly you don't hear those things. But those are my reality. So if you can't share my reality on some leve,l at least have some empathy for it. We can't be friendsKerry: like stop the erasure. I love that.Angela:It's it's the erasure and that's that's that is the that is the that is not micro that is macro. That is to to not consider that, you know, your heritage, whatever that like, I have enough struggle not knowing my heritage. I don't need somebody else putting that s**t on me. Whether you love me or not, like, you know. So God love them but man, f**k off?Patty: Well, yeah, I mean, we navigate these things in our relationships and in our friendships, and then when we try to bring them up, then we're dealing with the tears and the anger. And the you're always on me. And why do you say this? And then, you know, I didn't mean it that way. And it's like, well, could this not be about you for 30 seconds.Kerry: White, to deal with that space of white fragility is almost as exhausting as the actual micro aggression. But yeah, it is work. That, you know, that's that, you know, for me is the question. Do you find Angela, that you pick your battles? Do you pick your battles with this? Do you find that Patty?Angela:I do.Patty: Oh, for sure. For sure. There's so many people that I don't bring it, I don't bring it up to and really for anybody. If what if we do bring it up to you? That is such a gift that is such a gift, I mean, it is it, we're demonstrating trust, we're demonstrating the belief that you want to do better, we're making an investment in this relationship. Because we're not bringing it up. I mean, you're doing it, I can promise you, you're doing it. And if we don't bring it up, then you know, if we're not having these conversations with you, that reveals a lack of trust and a lack of investment in the relationship. So if we do bring it up, put yourself aside for 30 seconds, listen to what we're saying, listen to the fact that we're saying we believe that you can do that better, we believe in you, you just need to listen.Angela:Right? And thank you, because that is so true. And it is tiring. And, you know, with, you know, I been in a book club for 15 years, and there's two people of color in the book club. And I decided, ironically, in Black history month that I'm going to take a take a break. And it's not because the women aren't lovely women. And it's not because we haven't had some of these conversations over the years. It's the ongoing issue around primarily reading works from white writers. You know, and when you look at that, in the whole scheme of things in terms of our lives, like I didn't grow up with having, Patty, I'm, you know, we none of us grew up in Canada, having people of our culture reflected in our materials, right. And so, I've been reading this really, it's, I'm reading it very slowly. But it's a great book, and it's by David Mura. It's around craft, narrative craft, writing around race and identity(A Stranger’s Journey: Race, Identity, and Narrative Craft in Writing).And so he talks about how, you know, when we're reading, and unless it's a Black person, Indigenous person, an Asian person that's actually identified in the story, the assumption is the person's white, the story is what always, and I've known that, but when you're actually reading it, and going holy, and not swearing, and then I put the book down, and I have to go in and just process that for a minute as a small but what does that mean, and the whole context of your life is that since you were young, that's what it's always been. And so that, you know, the micro bits of Indigenous history, true Indigenous history, I'm on the third time doing this course around cultural, Indigenous cultural safety, third time, because every time I learned something new, and I cry, because of the parallels in terms of what you know, that's my son's history, that's his father's history. And, and then there's my history, that's erased as well. It's that's the biggest those micro, macro aggressions, so I had to lead this group so that I can take space to focus on Black and Indigenous writers in Canada. I'm taking the next year. And that's all I'm reading.Patty: Hmm. The thing that I really got out of the history was in Native studies, there's gaps where Black people should be in Black Studies, there's gaps where the Native people should be. Yeah. And so we need to put these histories together and have these conversations together. Because like I said, at the beginning, because and I know, you know, we're just kind of wrapping up. Black and Indigenous are useful categories in terms of talking about race, but they're not mutually exclusive.Angela: Yes.Patty:They're not discrete categories where everybody is either one or the other. There ends of a continuum. And there's lots and lots and lots. Yeah, so useful categories to think about, but not discrete categories, not mutually exclusive.Kerry: I am chomping at the bit to get in. But right now, unfortunately, my focus is to be on all kinds of sex books. But once *laughter*Angela:I might jump ship, I might jump ship.Patty: I'm sure Black and Indigenous have sex.Kerry: So I love to hear how you are managing to bring this infusion. And it's so fitting for this conversation. Because, like, as we as we were talking about, those are the spaces to which we can heal, when we pull those kinds of panels together, when we start to, you know, mesh, any mesh the histories in such a lavish and luscious way and bringing a fullness to the experience and stories of us. I think that that's powerful, and offering up this place for us to finally start the process of moving through this.And Angela, I just want to thank you for coming on for just giving us such a beautiful piece of yourself. And your story, as usual, you always do that. And and in just bringing a light to how we're all affected in this space. I appreciate you so much for that.Angela:I appreciate you guys for the openness and just to have this space, right, like, you know, Kerry, and I talk a bit outside of here, which I'm grateful for. But I'm finding, you know, so many years of having the absence of people of color in my life that I'm wanting and gravitating more and more to that because I think we all need that understanding and that place where we can feel that we can be real. And it's it's taxing not to be able to be real. And I find that my circles as I get older are becoming smaller, because you know, it we have to heal from the daily day. Right. You know, we deal with this in our workplaces, as you've talked about Patty and I made a may or may not have alluded to, you know, in our volunteer circles in our relationships, it's it's hard work. It's hard work. And to find that space of being still.Patty: I thank you so much, Angela. I'm always so happy when you guys …Angela:you know the we were aligned. We were aligned together and ungrateful to I get so excited. I get nervous and then I get excited.Kerry: But we're fine, not you.Patty: We have good conversation for call girl so we will link up Okay, all right.Kerry: Bye bye. Have a great night guys. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit medicinefortheresistance.substack.com

#41 - Meet the Host! Angela Brown

Enrollment Insights Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 5, 2021 42:24

It's the end of 2021, so it's time for our annual December shift of topics. This month you'll get to know our hosts better. Angela Brown is Niche's Senior Enrollment Insights Leader for PK-12 Schools. Before joining Niche, Angela was the director of marketing and communications at Flint Hill School, a PK-12, co-ed day school outside of Washington, DC. Angela joined Flint Hill in 2014 after spending 10 years focusing on B2B marketing communications for AmLaw 100 firms, IT consulting and digital marketing agencies, and a leading commercial real estate information and analytics company. 0:30 - Introduction 1:13 - Which is worse: Saying you have no budget or no time? 3:48 - Angela's personal mission statement 6:28 - Something surprising that Angela works on improving 8:41 - Angela's relationship with education growing up 12:34 - What Angela thought she would do growing up, and how it changed 15:14 - Dreams of the agency lifestyle and the path to school marketing 19:24 - Angela's transition to podcast host 22:37 - Angela's podcast recommendations: marketing related and just for fun 26:32 - The shift in perspective from an institution to the wide view at Niche 30:20 - Angela's favorite topic that she's learned about 32:50 - Preparing for crisis communications and inclusive marketing 35:34 - Angela's Bold Predictions for 2022 38:40 - A fun conversation starter to chat with Angela (It's kind of a funny story...) Show notes are available on the Enrollment Insights Blog at niche.bz/podcast. In the Enrollment Insights Podcast, you'll hear about novel solutions to problems, ways to make processes better for students, and the questions that spark internal reflection and end up changing entire processes.

washington dreams dc preparing schools b2b niche pk bold predictions amlaw angela brown flint hill angela it

Interview: Angela Rizzo, CMO eSentire, Part 2

Marketing BS with Edward Nevraumont

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 31, 2021 18:51

This is Part 2 of my interview with Angela Rizzo. Angela was the CMO of eSentire, a leading company in the cyber-security space. Since the recording of this episode she has left eSentire and is looking for her next opportunity. If you would like to get in contact with her, please just reply to this email. (For all interviews you can click on the link next to the audio player to add the stream to a podcast player).I expect to be back with an essay or briefing next week. I will also be going back to dropping a second post per week with interviews shortly. Enjoy!TranscriptEdward: This is Marketing BS. This is Part 2 of my interview with Angela Rizzo. Today, we're going to dive into her experience as CMO of eSentire. Angela, can you start by explaining what eSentire does? Angela: Yes, I'd be happy to. At eSentire, we provide an affordable, premium cybersecurity service with end-to-end proactive protection. eSentire invented a new category of cybersecurity. We call it Managed Detection and Response and I'll refer to that as MDR. MDR was invented to do two things—detect the fact that bad actors are attacking a customer environment, and then take action to contain the attack before the bad actors can do any harm.We think of these attacks in three categories—vulnerabilities, threats, and breaches. Vulnerability is defined as a weakness in a customer environment like a bad patch management practice. A threat is an exploit of the weakness by the bad actor. That's where they're trying to get into the environment. A breach is the successful exploitation of a threat. That means they're successfully able to get in. We monitor and manage for vulnerabilities, threats, and breaches. Time is critical to detect these things. Once we detect something, we then isolate and contain the attack. Edward: There are thousands of cybersecurity companies out there now. What are you doing? What is eSentire doing that's different? Or is it a matter of you're doing the same as everybody else? You're just doing it better? Angela: Managed Detection and Response is its own unique category. We have to think back to the fact that cybersecurity is a massive data analysis problem. In order to effectively provide cybersecurity protection, you have to be able to find the needle in the haystack. This is the simplest understanding of what we do.We do this in combination with three key things. First, we have our Atlas platform. There is a term that is going around right now in the analyst community and in the market called extended detection and response or XDR. This is the platform that is needed to ingest, normalize, and analyze all of this data. The second thing we do is called multi-signal ingestion. There are some cybersecurity companies out there that just ingest one signal. They'll do endpoints, or they'll do logs. We ingest multi-signals. We monitor customers' networks. We work with best-of-breed third-party companies, and we ingest their endpoint signals.We just announced our alliance with Microsoft to ingest the Microsoft Defender endpoint signal. Customers who have Microsoft licenses can work with eSentire and eSentire can manage the MDR associated with the endpoint. Edward: If a company isn't using you then, are they not analyzing these endpoints? What are the other cyber companies doing? Angela: I mentioned there were three things. You've got the platform, the multi-signal, and then the people within the SOC, within our Security Operation Center, and within our threat response units. You have to have the combination of these three things to be considered MDR, Managed Detection and Response. Many cybersecurity companies are either selling a point solution, or they're selling software, or they're claiming that they're selling MDR, when in fact they don't have all three of these things working in unison. Edward: Does a company need to use you in addition to someone else? Are there other elements in cybersecurity that you guys don't handle that they need to supplement?Angela: Yeah. Companies need to have basic security controls in place. They need to have firewalls. They need to have next-generation antivirus software. They need to have multi-factor authentication. They need to train their employees to understand phishing and not click on emails, if they don't know who these emails are from, and not click on any links. If they have these four things, these are like table stakes from a security perspective. You add an eSentire to provide this overall MDR service. That allows us to fully understand what's going on in the customer's environment so that we can hunt and contain those threats on our customer's behalf on a 24/7 basis. Edward: If I were to use the metaphor of a house, which people would understand. Someone needs to train the people in the house to lock the door when they leave, and that's not you. Someone needs to build the walls to make sure they're super secure and strong locks on the doors and plexiglass windows, and so on, guard dogs. All of that stuff is protecting the house. Your job is, hey, someone is going to actually breach the house. They come in and they try to open the door. You know when that happens and you set off the alarm so you can react. Angela: You can think of it as a house or you can even think of it instead of a house, as a small business. You've got all of this traditional security—the locks on the doors, the guards sitting at the desk, the dogs barking. Sometimes employees will open the door, like my example on phishing, employees will open the door, and let these guys in without knowing who they are. Now, the bad actor is in the building, and we can detect when they're in the building. But now they're searching. Is there personal identifiable information of the employees that I can gather? Is there a bank statement and information on customers that I can gather? Is there an intellectual property that I can gather?You think about this. We're in the digital world, and we're able to see who is actually doing these types of things in the customer's environment and have the ability to determine this isn't an employee looking at this stuff. This is somebody who got in via a backdoor. We have the ability through eSentire Managed Detection and Response to isolate that person, and to contain the threat so that this bad actor doesn't start moving laterally through the company to continue to gather more data and more information. Edward: Your company gets better as you get more clients, as you get more signals. Angela: Exactly. If you're customer number 1025, you have all the learnings from customers 1 through 1024. All of the learnings that we have had up to date are now applied to your environment. Edward: But more than that, that new customer now, because just the fact that they're on your platform, if anybody attacks them, that information gets shared to all the customers that came before them. There are positive externalities in both directions. Angela: Exactly. Edward: What do customers do that don't use you? It sounds like your product is pretty essential for protecting against these threats. Presumably, you don't have 100% market share, what is everybody else doing? Angela: There's some confusion in the market because there are a lot of people, a lot of companies that claim they do Managed Detection and Response. They're slapping the MDR label on their service, when in fact they don't. We invented MDR as I mentioned earlier. We have a very strict description and definition of what MDR is. We believe that, again, they don't necessarily have the combination of all three things and do the three things the way in which we do it—the platform, the multi-signals, and the people.There is some thought out there, and I think about that, too, as the CMO, as to why are they not banging our doors down, knocking our doors down to get our service because it is something that is very unique in the market and our customers are pretty happy. Edward: That brings me to my next question. When companies are seeking you, I know they are, is your product sold or bought? Angela: It's a service. Typical customers are small and midsize enterprises, SMBs, and small enterprises. We target companies from 250-5000 plus employees. Typically, the CISO, CIO, or head of IT are the people that are looking to buy this service.Edward: Are they out there looking for your solution? Or is it a matter of your sales calling them up and making sure they're aware that the solution exists and they should buy it? Angela: I see what you mean. Yes, absolutely. Sorry. It really gets sold. We have to sell it. We're a private company in Canada and one of the things we're working on right now is improving, and increasing our brand awareness. We do that via a variety of methods. But yes, some customers will come to us via customer references. A customer works with someone in the same industry and they've had a very positive experience. They'll refer them.We also have roughly 100 channel partners that are out there, selling eSentire to their customer base. Roughly 40% of our new bookings come from our channel. We're constantly educating the market. Part of the problem, Ed, is that a lot of people don't think that they have a problem, and a lot of these SMBs don't think that they're going to be a target. These bad actors aren't going to come after me. They're after the Marriotts and the bigger companies, and we're saying no. These bad actors are going after all companies of all sizes, and SMBs are targeted because they aren't putting these types of protections in place. Edward: I would imagine, again, you're an SMB. You have a lot going on, a lot of decisions to make, and your cash is very valuable to you because you have a high cost of capital. Going in putting money into security is downside protection rather than upside growth. Angela: The other thing is we have to convince people that they have a problem because they don't think that they really have a problem. Quite frankly, the industry has confused a lot of buyers. You go to a trade show like RSA. There's 3000 plus security packages software you could purchase. But what they don't tell you is you have to have people behind whatever you buy.Let me give you a great example, I'm sure you've heard of SIEM, Security Information and Event Management software. You put this SIEM software on your environment and it basically logs, then sends you alerts. If you're an SMB, you can be flooded with up to 10,000 alerts a day. What is a small business going to do? When I talk about finding that needle in the haystack, there's no way they're going to find that needle in the haystack if they're getting 10,000 alerts a day. You cannot hire enough people to actually do that work. That's why having a platform, being able to ingest all the signals, and then having the right people focus on those things that are truly the red flags, that's really what companies need. My job is to convince them that they have this problem, and once they understand it, the sale is actually pretty easy. But we really have to get people to understand what we do, and how we do it, and how it sets us apart. Edward: I imagine many companies treat security as a checkbox of the CEOs sees to the CTO, or the CIO, do we have security in place? The CIO goes out and finds one of these packages and buys the package, and slaps it on, and tells the CEO that they're good. Unless something goes disastrously wrong, nobody asks the right questions. Angela: That's a good point. I also think that you've got a couple of other things that are occurring. You have people that say, in order to be compliant, I have to put A, B, and C in. You go ahead and put in A, B, and C, but just because you're compliant, doesn't mean you're 100% protected. Edward: That's right. People are jumping through hoops rather than actually solving them for the problems. Frankly, most of the time, when they don't solve the problem, they'll be okay. But in some percentage of the time, they won't be. If that happens, the CIO probably points to the attackers and says, this was unavoidable. There's nothing I could have done and nobody knows any different. Angela: It's interesting because people know that they need to have basics. They need to have the next-gen firewalls. They need to have antivirus software. They need to have multi-factor authentication. They need to train their employees around phishing. Don't open an email, and don't click on a link if you don't know who it's from. You have all those things, then, you also need eSentire on top of that to provide the MDR service so that you have a service that understands fully what is going on in your environment. Again, when the red flags pop up, you have the resources at eSentire that hunt and contain those threats on behalf of our customers.Edward: You mentioned before that once you get the conversation started, your conversion rate is pretty high. How long does that take you to convince somebody that this is a real problem that they need you to solve? Angela: It depends. If a customer has already been breached, we can probably get in there and up and running in a matter of a few days. If this is a new lead that has come in through one of our webinars, or they've engaged with the website or content, it could take anywhere from two to three months to get them on board.Edward: If the first thing happens, if they've just started being breached, they feel a sense of urgency where like, we need to fix this so that it doesn't happen again, whereas if a breach has never actually happened, it feels like this is something that can always be put off to tomorrow. It might be important, but it's not urgent.Angela: Exactly. Edward: Do you need internal champions? Do you need multiple people in the organization to buy in before sales happen or if the CIO says, hey, let's do this. Does this just happen automatically or do you need to provide the CIO with materials to help convince the CEO and other people in the organization that it's worth investing in?Angela: It's interesting because typically, we work with the CISO or the CIO. From a technical perspective, they get it and they understand the value. Now, they have to go get the CFO or whoever has to approve the purchasing decision to sign off on it. I don't know if the CFO is really going to care that much about the technology. What they need to understand is, what is the risk that we are avoiding by having eSentire? What is the return on investment by making this investment in eSentire? How many people do we not need to hire? How do we ensure it again? This is basically a risk in our ROI.We provide that information to our prospects in the selling cycle so that they can go back and articulate that back to the buyer—the person who has to make the buying decision, and approve the final buying decision. Edward: How do you divide your marketing budget? How much of your budget is spent on the direct acquisition of trying to get those people that just had a breach, and they're searching for a solution to come to you, versus brand-building and content, and creating a perception in the marketplace that you're out there? Angela: It's probably 50/50 right now, in terms of building the brand because even though we have been working with MDR, even eSentire's been around since 2001, the term MDR was coined five or six years ago by Gartner. Internally, we think that we know MDR, but we still have a lot of education to do in the market especially, when you have other companies like MSSPs or other companies that are adopting the MDR term, but they're not really doing MDR. We have to educate people that, no, when we say MDR, it really means this. The people that you're talking to, our competitors, are not really doing what we define as MDR.There's still quite a bit of education that we need to do. We're spending a lot of time, quite frankly, in PR—driving more earned media, getting our experts in our threat response unit, in our operations teams, in marketing—to go out and talk about what we do and how we do it. We're getting those stories published in tier 1 and tier 2 publications to get the word out in terms of what we do and how we do it. Edward: How do you know if that's a good ROI, good-spent ROI in your spend? On the direct acquisition stuff, you can measure it. You can measure whether your click on paid search led to a lead, which led to a SQL, which led to an opportunity or a sale. But when you do that PR and the top-of-the-funnel stuff, how do you know you're not wasting your money? Angela: We watch our share of voice, which as you know, identifies how many times we get the mentions and our share of voice. We're about 20 points ahead of any other competitor in the MDR space. We measure that.Edward: Angela, a lot of companies that sell products like yours—these SaaS bit products to these SMB businesses—swear by account-based marketing, but you guys generally have not had a lot of success there. Why do you think so? Angela: For account-based marketing, I'm not simply seeing the ROI at this point. I suspect that one reason is that we rolled it out to the entire sales force and then we declared victory.Edward: You basically did what you're telling your clients not to do, which is don't just buy a software solution and check the box, and say you're done. That's what you guys did for ABM. Angela: Exactly. Guilty as charged. ABM requires focused attention and alignment for marketing and sales. You've got to have the right targeted personas, you have to have the right content. We went too big, too fast. We rolled the program out to all of the sales without a real clear focus plan on, are these the right segments? Are these the right personas? Do we have the right content?Sales reps get busy, especially, you get to the last month of the quarter, they're going to focus on closing those deals. They're not going to be focused on the ABM. They need marketing to help bring them along. What we've done is we've scaled back our efforts on ABM. We're now focused on one rep in one specific segment and she's totally bought into the ABM program. What I believe we need is we've got to build a successful program. Let's start small. Let's build this program. Let's understand what we need to do to make it work, and then let's figure out how we roll it out more widely. Edward: That makes a ton of sense. Figure out how to work at a small scale, and once you have it working, then scale it up, rather than trying to scale it up, and then figure it out after big. Angela: Exactly. Edward: Forty percent of your leads or your revenue come from these partner relationships. As a marketer, do you spend much time trying to help the partners sell more, like providing the partners themselves with tools? Angela: Oh, absolutely. I have a field marketing team that is tightly aligned with our regional vice presidents in the field. Then also, we're aligned with our vice president of channels. We are working very closely to not only enable the channel partners. We think of our channel partners as an extension of our sales team. If we're going to go out and build content for the field sales reps, we think about, how is the channel going to use this? How do we create this in such a way that if we modify it at 2%, then any channel partner can use it? They can slap their logo on it and they can leverage it.We also work with our channel leader to look at how we recruit more partners. How do we ensure that we're getting the right partners to continue to drive because the goal this year is to drive 50% of our bookings through the channel? We need to grow it by another 10%—really super tight alignment with the sales teams in the field, and with the channel sales team.Edward: Angela, thank you so much for being on the show today. Before you go, tell me about your quake book and how it changed the way you think about the world. Angela: Oh yeah, my quake book. I read this book a while back. It's called A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. It was very eye-opening for me. His perspective is that we're so caught up with our ego and we allow ourselves to get caught up in our own thoughts. Our thoughts really are not reality. They're just our thoughts. He encourages you to focus on the present moment. The present moment is all we have. The past is gone, the future is not here yet. It's all about the present. The other thing is to help me realize that we really have no idea what other people are really going through, especially now. We just need to be kind. Be kind to each other because we just don't know what people are actually dealing with in their own lives.Edward: That's a great note to end on. Thank you so much, Angela. Angela: Thank you, Ed. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit marketingbs.substack.com

Interview: Angela Rizzo, CMO eSentire Part 1

Marketing BS with Edward Nevraumont

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 24, 2021 16:36

I wasn't sure I would have a new essay for you this week. Unfortunately the new kiddo has had to spend more time in the hospital (nothing serious, but out of caution “just in case”). I'm not worried about him, but it has taken up a fair amount of time (beyond the normal baby-taking-care-of time). Rather than leave you with nothing this week (and next) I am polishing off this interview that has not been released yet. Angela WAS the CMO of eSentire, a leading company in the cyber-security space. Since the recording of this episode she has left eSentire and is looking for her next opportunity. If you would like to get in contact with her, please just reply to this email. (For all interviews you can click on the link next to the audio player to add the stream to a podcast player).TranscriptEdward: My guest today is Angela Rizzo, CMO of eSentire. Today we cover Angela's career and path to CMO—Sprint, EDS, Hewlett-Packard. Angela is now the CMO of eSentire, the global leader in managed detection of cyber threats. I'm super pumped to have this discussion.Angela, you were recently promoted from VP of marketing to CMO. How has your job changed? What did you do to get that promotion?Angela: I joined eSentire as VP of marketing in July of 2018. When I came on board, most of the marketing focus at that time was on face-to-face events. We knew that we needed to add more programs that delivered higher quality marketing-qualified leads.I realized that the team was really talented. They just needed a bit more direction and leadership support. I moved quickly to work with the team to expand our focus from an events-only focus to include integrated campaigns, focused on what issues the customers were really grappling with, and how eSentire MDR could solve those issues.We started doing more paid promotions—Google display ads, paid social media, SEM, SEO. I put in a lead-scoring program. We also started doing a lead-nurture program. We started to build transparency in reporting by creating new marketing dashboards in the sales force that covered everything from where were these MQLs being created to how much pipeline were we actually generating that was marketing-attributed.Edward: You were doing all that as the VP of marketing, or you didn't start doing that until you became CMO?Angela: That's correct. That's what I was doing as VP of marketing that I think led to the promotion to CMO.Edward: What happened when you became CMO? How did the job change? Did you take on other responsibilities, or was it just an escalated title and compensation package?Angela: No, I did take on more responsibilities. I actually took on the corporate comms function which I had never run before. That included analyst relations, public relations, community relations, and employee relations. This was January of 2020. I get the promotion at the end of the month, and then COVID hits at the end of February. Now, I'm finding myself focusing on how we need to communicate to our customers on what's going on with the company so they can be assured that we're still going to have 100% operations.Edward: Did you have any experience doing those things before you became CMO?Angela: No, I did not. Along with putting together the customer communications, we also worked doing employee communications. We were at a point prior to the pandemic where we were doing quarterly employee all-hands. We actually went weekly once the pandemic hit in March.We were actually pretty fortunate, Ed because the company was prepared to have every single employee work from home. Everybody started working from home in mid-March, and we were doing weekly all-hands meetings. As the CMO, I was actually pulling together the content, making sure that these meetings got scheduled. Our CEO and entire leadership team participated in every meeting because we felt that it was just critical that we kept everybody up-to-date on what was going on.If you recall, a year ago nobody really knew what was happening day-to-day. We have employees all over the world. We have employees in North America, Ireland, London, and Canada. We just needed to have this regular cadence of meetings to keep folks informed. I think at the end of the year, we ended up doing 20 all-hands meetings starting in mid-March.Edward: It worked out great. Obviously, you stepped into the role and you did fantastically. How did they trust you to do that though? You had no experience doing that particular part of the job. Why did they thrust you into that role?Angela: I demonstrated as VP of marketing when I first started that I could look across the organization and figure out what are the things that are either broken or need some TLC. In addition to the marketing function, I actually took on the business development reps when I first took on the VP of marketing role.I did that because I thought we could do a much better job flowing all of our leads and MQLs into the business development reps if we were part of the same team. I was demonstrating as VP of marketing that I could take on roles that might not have traditionally been part of marketing, and almost, I would say immediately, within a few weeks or a few months, start to show progress.Edward: When you took on those BDRs, you had never led a team of BDRs before. Is that correct?Angela: I did have some experience at HP. We had an SDR team down at Conway, Arkansas when I was running the cloud team. I worked with a small group of those SDRs. But this was a little bit different because the entire company was focused on this group of BDRs. They did nothing else other than support what we're doing at eSentire.They were aligned with sales, and I had convinced leadership that if we could align these BDRs with marketing, I really felt like we could improve productivity. We could make sure that they're focused on all the inbound leads as well as doing the outbound, and it would probably help us with better alignment across the employee base. I have to tell you, I'm proud to say that we did exceed all of our key objectives in the calendar year 2019 as we were going into 2020 when I received the promotion in January of 2020.Edward: Your success there with the BDRs, do you think that was instrumental towards the organization taking a risk on you, bringing you in as CMO, having you oversee these areas that you'd never overseen before?Angela: I was able to demonstrate that I really like to get my hands on the things that are most broken, and see what we can do to really fix them, and move them forward. This was an area at the time in the business that we really weren't getting what we needed out of this team. To turn it around and to see the progress within the first 30 days, and then to really see it mature over the next several quarters was really a feather in my hat. It really did help move the business forward in terms of providing more top-of-pipeline opportunities for sales reps.Edward: I want to go back now to see the path that got you to where you are now. What were you like when you were 12-14 years old?Angela: I'm number six out of seven kids. I was the entertainer in the family. I always had the ability to make people laugh. I love the crowd. When I was in junior high—I guess that would be when I was 12 or 14—I ran for student body president of the school and won. That was the beginning and maybe close to the end of my political career.I was a pretty happy kid. I was very upbeat, and I just loved surrounding myself with people. Back in the time I grew up, Ed, it was in the 60s and 70s. There wasn't an internet. There weren't iPads. There weren't cellphones. We played outside. We were always active, always engaged with other people. My dad worked, my mom stayed at home. It was pretty much a traditional family at that point.Edward: A little later on when you were about 18, you started doing stand-up comedy?Angela: Yes, 18 or 19 years old I did stand-up. People always encouraged me to try to do it. They thought I was funny. I thought I'll give it a shot. I have to tell you, the first time I was on stage and told a joke and got a laugh, it was amazing. It's like a drug. I have done stand-up comedy off and on throughout my life. The first time I did stand-up I was 19 years old, and then I didn't do it for a while.When I started working at Sprint, we started going to a local bar down the street from the office. I was going there doing amateur comedy nights once a week. I probably did it for a couple of months and then I thought, I want to focus on my career. I don't think being a standup comedian is really going to make it for me. I really want to focus my time and energy on building my career.Edward: What did you take away from that time, if anything, from years of comedy? Was it a pure distraction, or did you learn anything there that you use today?Angela: Back then, I was really struggling with my sexuality. I was gay and was having a hard time dealing with who I was and being my authentic self. I found that back then, I really couldn't talk about the things about my life because anytime you start to talk about your life you expose who you are and how you feel. The comedy that I was doing was very surface-level.Fast forward a few years later, I realized that once I could get on stage and just be myself, talk about my life, and be authentic, I think having that level of authenticity is really important because if you're hiding something, whether it's something personal about you or something you don't want people to know, you can't be truly authentic.What I learned from comedy was, yeah it's fun to get up, tell a joke, and get a laugh, but if you really want to do stand-up comedy, you really have to talk about your life and talk about who you are. I didn't really do that until probably, fast forward 15-20 years later when I was in Kansas City doing stand-up comedy and then really just being able to be my authentic self.Edward: Let's jump ahead a little bit. Where were you in your career when you were 25?Angela: This was a tough time in my life. I just mentioned being gay, and I was actually married when I was 19. I got recently divorced at 25. I was very disconnected from my family. I was unemployed at the time. I was having trouble finding work. I only had a high school diploma. I did not go to college because I got married at a very young age. It was a very difficult time and one of my brothers is a podiatrist, and I convinced him to hire me part-time just to help him in his office. He had an office in San Francisco.I would schedule the appointments for him. I'd do the billing. Those were the other key roles. One of the things that I had to do in this role is I had to rub lotion on the feet of old people. His patients were really old. I recall the moment that I was doing it for a patient and I just said to myself, this is not my life, I can't do this.It's circa 1987, Sprint at the time was headquartered in Burlingame, California and they were running a job fair. I applied and I was hired at Sprint as a customer service rep. That really was the big change in my life when I was 25 years old. I ended up getting on at Sprint, and then three months later, I was promoted to supervisor. Eighteen months later there was an opportunity to move to Kansas City.There was a huge contract that Sprint won that I thought, I can just start up my life over. I can start in a new city with a new job at this company that I've been with for a few years. Let's go for a few years. Let's see what happens. The rest is history. I've never looked back from that time.Edward: You spent 12 years at Sprint, moving up progressively more senior the whole time you were there. What skills did you develop there at Sprint that serve you now as CMO?Angela: It comes back to building great relationships with the people that you work with especially with customers. I love working with customers. I work very hard so that people—not only my peers and people who I work with but also customers—know that they can count on me. I took advantage of every opportunity that I was afforded at Sprint. I really developed this reputation as someone who could get stuff done.When I had the opportunity to move to Kansas City, I jumped. I thought I would be here in Kansas City for a few years. I was actually here for 10 years. I moved back to San Francisco and then back to Kansas City, but we might get into that. I have to tell you that in order to think about what skills I learned as a CMO, I was in a support position after I moved to Kansas City. I'd learned over time that the best thing that I could do is find ways to say yes when somebody came to you with a problem.Somebody wants something, how do I get to yes? It wasn't always that way. At first, when somebody would come to me with an issue, I would find all the reasons and excuses why it couldn't be done. Back at that time, I was really the office of no. It was because at that time, I had a boss who had very adversarial relationships with his peers. I realized I was modeling his behavior. He left Sprint. I started reporting to a new boss, and this is probably one of the people who has had the most influence in my life, my new boss at that time.Again, this was 1990-1991. Her name is Nancy Cole, and she taught me that in order to succeed, I need to focus on what could be done, not what could not be done. How do you say yes when somebody brings a problem? They don't want to hear why it's hard. They need you to figure out how to get it done. That approach and perspective changed everything for me.It was also at a time where I was encouraged to get my undergraduate degree. Nancy wanted to promote me to director but she couldn't do it until I had my degree. At the time, I was actually in a non-traditional college. I was going to school at night taking an accelerated program every five weeks, earning three credits. I needed to go faster so I doubled up on the course work in an accelerated program, two classes a week. These were four hours every evening and I was still working full-time.I ended up graduating with honors in '94 with a Bachelor in Business Administration, and then shortly thereafter, I was promoted to director. It really was this lesson of someone in sales, a customer, or someone in another department comes to you and they need something, how do you say yes? How do you figure out how to solve their problem?Edward: I want to jump ahead to your time at HP. You were there for a decade, advancing in sales, getting progressively more senior in sales, and then you switched into marketing. How did that happen?Angela: My entire career to date spans over 34 years in technology. I've had the opportunity to lead many functions in my career—sales, operations, customer service, product management. Marketing was the one area that had always interested me, and I'm always up for learning new things. When the opportunity presented itself for me to move into a leadership role from sales to marketing, I really jumped at the chance.Edward: I want to talk about how that happens though. You, obviously, at that point had demonstrated your ability in sales. Marketing is very different from sales, and you jumped in at a fairly senior level. What did they see in your sales skills that they thought you would excel in a marketing role?Angela: I've always had a knack to be able to translate really technical concepts to non-technical teams, look at what customer requirements are, and then translate what the customer requirements are back into the technical teams. We thought the skill would bode well in marketing, really understanding what is it that we're trying to deliver to the customers and how do we translate that back into not only the technical teams but into how we market the offerings.Edward: What are your productivity tricks? What do you do to be productive that most people don't do?Angela: I really believe that people do not need to be micromanaged. Most people and most people that I have come across in my career, there have been very few instances where I have come across an employee who doesn't want to do a good job. Most people want to do good. They want to succeed. They want to work hard. They just need guidance. They don't need to be micromanaged.I treat my relationships with my employees almost as a partnership. These are the things that we need to accomplish. This is the time frame of when we need to accomplish these things. Let's figure out how we're going to get there. Let's establish these goals. Let's measure. Let's adjust. Let's repeat. It really boils down to just trusting my team to do their jobs and being available to them when they need my support.Edward: Angela this has been fantastic. We'll pick this up tomorrow with a dive into your time at eSentire. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit marketingbs.substack.com

1261 氣候都在變，我們為什麼不變？｜高雄的氣候 + 談論氣候的英語單詞

Play Episode Listen Later May 4, 2021 15:50

The climate is changing, why aren't we? 氣候都在變了，我們為何不變？他們會回答這個問題What is the climate like in Kaohsiung? 高雄的氣候是怎麼樣？Angela:It's mostly warm to hot and the winters are very short.在高雄的天氣通常是溫暖到炎熱，冬天也很短。Donny:Kaohsiung is hot, very hot. If you're not used to hot places, then this is a good place to find out if you like hot places. Um, if you don't like hot places this is not the best place for you. Uh, it's quite hot most of the year.高雄很熱。如果你不習慣炎熱的天氣的話，這就是讓你發現自己習不習慣炎熱天氣的一個好地方。如果你不喜歡熱的地方這就不是對你最好的。因為一整年都很熱。Hot / Warm 熱/暖和Cold / Cool 冷/涼爽Sunny / Rainy 晴天/雨天Clear / Cloudy 晴朗的/多雲的Dry / Humid 乾燥/潮濕Foggy / Misty 有霧的/朦朧的Gusty / Windy 陣風/有風的Thunder / Lightning 打雷/閃電明天的內容是：他們會回答這個問題：Does it snow in Kaohsiung? 高雄下雪嗎？

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1261 氣候都在變，我們為什麼不變？｜高雄的氣候 + 談論氣候的英語單詞

Play Episode Listen Later May 4, 2021 15:50

kaohsiung angela it

1261 氣候都在變，我們為什麼不變？｜高雄的氣候 + 談論氣候的英語單詞

Play Episode Listen Later May 4, 2021 15:50

kaohsiung angela it

1259 我們真正的問題不是人口爆炸｜高雄有多少人口，萬、億、兆英語怎麼說

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 24, 2021 16:35

Real problem is not population explosion, but what the population is doing. ～Radhanath Swami我們真正的問題不是人口爆炸，而是這些人口在做什麼。What is the population of Kaohsiung? 高雄有多少人？Angela:It is about 2.7 million. 大概是270萬人。Donny:Um, I think in the city, it's something between two and three million, I think. I'm not sure. 我想在城市裡有大概兩到三百萬，我不是太確定。英語千萬億萬的說法ten thousand: 一萬a hundred thousand: 十萬a million: 一百萬ten million: 一千萬a hundred million: 一億a billion: 十億ten billion: 一百億a hundred billion: 一千億a trillion: 一萬億明天的內容是：他們會回答這個問題 Where do people hang out in Kaohsiung? 人都在高雄哪些地方玩？

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Todd: Did your kids work when they were in school? How did you feel about your kids when they were in high school?Angela: My kids had to work for their pocket money, so they would have chores to do and they would get pocket money. They would help with the washing up, sweeping, cleaning, whatever. They worked hard to earn their pocket money. They thought it was really hard.Todd: So did you ever withhold their wages?Angela: Yeah.Todd: You did? Really?!Angela: Yeah.Todd: You'd be like, “No, you didn't do your chores. You don't get the money”?Angela: Yeah, you're not having it. Yeah.Todd: Really?! How often would you have to do that?Angela: More so in the beginning. Once they get the idea, you know, if you don't work for your money, you don't get your money. And that's a life lesson, isn't it? If you don't do your work, you don't get money.Todd: That is great! Because I think a lot of people just assume, even me, like I've never had children, but the parents just spoil the kids. They don't want to have the hassle, they don't want to have the fight, they just give them the money.Angela: But you look at the difference between the Western kids and the kids out here. You can go on a bus trip with the kids out here. You can go on a six-hour bus trip. You don't hear a peep out of the kids. They stop there. The mom's asleep, maybe the kid's asleep as well. If you put Western kids on a bus for six hours, you'd have to have a PlayStation or a tablet or something. They'd be crying. You'd have to feed them things. It's a totally different way of acting.Todd: Yeah.Angela: I miss that. When I came to Asia, I noticed that the kids were happier with less, much less than we have. And it wasn't until I spent the year in Asia and then I went to Australia, landed in Sydney, noticed one thing, that the people were much bigger, but also the kids were just so spoiled. The parents were just giving in to them.Todd: So you think that maybe we need to rectify that situation, that we should stop spoiling kids.Angela: Yeah, I do.Todd: Take away the PlayStation.Angela: Yeah.Todd: Just stick them outside, yeah.Angela: You can get stalls today with - a place where you can put the kids' tablet.Todd: Yeah, it's crazy.Angela: Why won't the kid just look at the world?Todd: Yeah. It's so funny you mentioned that because before we were talking about potential business ideas, and I have an idea called “Camp Boredom.”Angela: Boredom is good.Todd: Yeah. What happens at Camp Boredom is you send your kid to Camp Boredom and it's just a camp in the woods or on a farm. The kids come and they go, “What do we do?” and I go, “I don't know. Nothing. Go outside. Just find something to do.”Angela: No Wi-Fi.Todd: Yeah, because I grew up no Wi-Fi, no nothing. I grew up on a farm and I'm really blessed. I had no idea how blessed I was at the time. But I grew up, I spent all time on my grandfather's farm, and we had nothing to do. I mean, nothing. But we had this farm, like, so we had everything to do. So the rule was, you had to be up for breakfast at 7:00 and then once you finished breakfast, you had to be out of the house, like you could not be in the house. It was almost forbidden to be in the house unless it's like raining outside. And you would be outside from sun-up to sundown.Angela: Yeah, climbing fences, climbing trees, haystacks.Todd: Right, having the best time of your life. And your imagination is going and you just… Oh! The little things that you would do. Oh, we're going to build a tree fort. Oh, we're going to do this. Oh, we're going to do that.Angela: We're going to stop the river from flowing.Todd: Right, right. So that's my idea. I think Camp Boredom. So maybe we have to…Angela: I think boredom is good for kids.Todd: Yeah. How so?Angela: Because, as you say, you know, if they're always entertained and always fed, then they don't get to learn how to entertain themselves.Todd: Yeah.Angela: If you sit them in a car with nothing for six hours…Todd: Right.Angela: Then look out the window.Todd: There was a great thing recently with Jerry Seinfeld, the comedian. He has a bit where he talks about how his mother would take him to the bank when he was a kid, and like a bank or department store was the ultimate space of boredom. Like there's nothing you can do. You're so bored, you just want to like flop down on the floor type of thing. But you're right, like I don't know if kids have that anymore.Angela: No, they don't.Todd: Where they hit that wall where there's nothing for them to do, you know.Angela: No.Todd: So do you think that maybe we should limit the devices, the smartphones, all that, that kids use?Angela: I do think we should but I think it's too late now. I think we're past the point where you can get Wi-Fi and it's that… You know, if we took off the kids now, what would they do? They'd be bored.Todd: Well, you can just never give it to them, right?Angela: Yeah, in the first place.Todd: Maybe that's impossible.Angela: It's impossible.Todd: Okay, cool.

australia kids western playstation wifi boredom jerry seinfeld todd you angela you todd yeah angela it todd so todd well todd right

第1164期:Kids and Boredom

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 24, 2021 4:34

australia kids western playstation wifi boredom jerry seinfeld todd you angela you todd yeah angela it todd so todd well todd right

第1163期:Empty Nest

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 23, 2021 5:03

Todd: So I'm here with Angela and she is a writer and a traveler, a teacher, a businesswoman, and you're also a mother.Angela: Yes. Twins.Todd: You have twins! That's amazing! Wow. And so you also are now what's called an empty nester. Can you explain what that means?Angela: It's the feeling that you get when you realize that you've worked hard for your kids all those years and now they're ready to leave. Because they're twins, the nest is going to be emptied completely at once.Todd: Yeah.Angela: And I would be in a house by myself. I did think though that my son would have stayed home forever, so I would never have gotten to a position of having an empty nest. And my daughter, she left a little bit earlier. But it was just the thought of, you know, you're in a house that your family's grown up in, what do you do now? Do you take in lodgers? Do you rent the house out? And that's when I made my decision to travel. It was a gap that I spotted because my kids were 18 at the time. It was likely that my daughter would have grandchildren at some point or I would have grandchildren, and she'd have children, and then it would not be possible to go away again. So I saw the gap.I rented the house out. And my son who was the last to leave the house, he said, “Mum, are you renting my room, as well?” I said, “Of course, I'm renting your room. You don't get a house with a teenager resident in it,” and he was absolutely flummoxed but he found somewhere to live. He's working. She's found somewhere to live, she's working. And I think that one of the things you can give your kids actually is independence. I think it's the biggest thing that you can give them.Todd: Yeah, back in the day, you know, it used to be that you would get kicked out of the nest. That was another phrase, you know.Angela: Yes.Todd: They'd say like, “Okay, when you're 18, your parents would give you that push like a mother bird. Go fly. Go do your thing.” And I think it's still a good thing, actually.Angela: I think it's a very good thing.Todd: You know, that you go out, you… I was not really kicked out but I did leave right away and it was a good experience.Angela: It's the best experience. You know, those years when you've got freedom, you got your friends. You're growing up. You're learning about the world. You should be out there by yourself.Todd: Now, you've done something against the grain. You went and traveled by yourself.Angela: Umm-hmm.Todd: And your gap year. Now in Asia where we are, this isn't really an empty nester culture. Like I don't know if they… Especially Thailand, they don't really push kids out of the house. People stay and live a little bit more. Have you noticed a difference like in the family dynamics now that you're in Bangkok?Angela: I think in Bangkok, in Thailand, and certainly at the other Southeast Asian countries I traveled, I've been amazed at how families operate and live together. I think I'm very saddened by my own circumstances in the UK, and lots of people in the UK where families are divided and they don't live together. They don't support each other. When I was living in Isaan, it was very obvious that families, because there are no social services, people have to work or they've got no money. So the parents would have to go to Bangkok or Phuket, or one of the tourist areas, and the children would be left with their grandparents in the village. So it was obvious, there were lots of children who were growing up with grandparents, aunties. But I looked at this and thought, “Well, these kids are living out in the village where it's safe, they're happy. You know, they grow up as a gang and they're loved.”Todd: Yeah, that's really nice. And since you mentioned that, one of the saddest things I ever saw unexpectedly was when I was in the Philippines. I was flying out, I was in the Philippines. I had a great time and when I was going, at the airport, they had this long line, and I didn't know what was going on. It was all these children and their mothers. I mean, we're talking dozens and it just… It seemed strange. And then it hit me, “Oh, because the Philippines have so many people that work overseas.” These were all mothers that were saying goodbye to their children.Angela: Yes.Todd: Because they had to go work overseas. And it's like I even get choked up now like thinking about it. It was just really powerful that like the people that have that situation, that those mothers, you know they don't want to leave their kid.Angela: Yeah.Todd: That's got to be really hard but they have to.Angela: But they have to.Todd: They have to go to wherever they're going to go in the world. Yeah, that was something. I'll never forget that.Angela: Yeah. I find families over here are just so willing to share. They share their food. They share their beds. They share their houses. In a way, that is just so different to what I've experienced in the UK.Todd: Yeah. That is true. That is true.

uk thailand philippines twins mum bangkok southeast asian empty nest phuket todd you todd yeah angela it todd they

第1163期:Empty Nest

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 23, 2021 5:03

uk thailand philippines twins mum bangkok southeast asian empty nest phuket todd you todd yeah angela it todd they

Business Burnout and Emotional Collapse - How to Avoid It

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 21, 2020 10:11

Business burnout and emotional collapse come with symptoms you can't ignore. Give yourself time to breathe, streamline daily admin tasks with HousecallPro.com/Angela It's okay to take a small break, so listen to today's show and try out these self-care tips to avoid stress overload. Now more than ever, it's important to manage your stress at work before it manages you. Today's #AskaHouseCleaner sponsors are Savvy Cleaner Training for professional house cleaners and maids. And Housecall Pro. #AngelaBrown #SavvyCleaner *** RATE THIS SHOW *** https://sotellus.com/r/savvy-cleaner *** RATE THIS PODCAST *** https://ratethispodcast.com/askahousecleaner *** FAST TRACK TO CLEANING SUCCESS *** https://SavvyCleaner.com/Calendar-of-Courses *** MOST REQUESTED LIST OF CLEANING STUFF I USE *** https://www.Amazon.com/shop/AngelaBrown ***FUNNY CLEANING SHIRTS – DAILY GIVEAWAY*** Enter to Win - https://funnycleaningshirts.com *** MORE VIDEOS ON THIS TOPIC *** Catalyst 2018: How to Avoid Burnout by Cultivating Correct Mindsets - Dr. Caroline Leaf - https://youtu.be/ChcVgzJ89PU Recover from Burnout in 5 Steps - Megan Minns - https://youtu.be/sYYuiVRFzrM 15 minutes a day to prevent burnout | Paul Koeck | TEDxFlandersWomen - https://youtu.be/Uk3OAGcjQPA How to Avoid Burnout as an Entrepreneur - Valuetainment - https://youtu.be/ibJAjemBq48 Avoid Burnout According to A 26-Year-Old Self-Made Millionaire - Business Insider - https://youtu.be/U34f_4UVu5g *** GOOD KARMA RESOURCES FROM THIS EPISODE *** These good karma links connect you to Amazon.com and affiliated sites that offer products or services that relate to today’s show. When you click on the links and buy the items you pay the exact same prices or less than if you found the links on your own elsewhere. The difference is that we make a small commission here at the show for sharing these links with you. From Coping to Thriving: How to Turn Self-care into a Way of Life - https://amzn.to/2KbH3Fu Stress Management Techniques for the Chronically-Stressed: How to Manage Stress - https://amzn.to/2INYiha Peak Performance: Elevate Your Game, Avoid Burnout, and Thrive with the New Science of Success - https://amzn.to/2UgMU5M How to Manage Stress: How to Deal with Stress and Live the Good Life - https://amzn.to/2yb9S20 The Simple Secrets of Mental Training: How to Build Mental Toughness and Train Your Brain for Success - https://amzn.to/2UaXds3 *** CONNECT WITH ANGELA ON SOCIAL MEDIA *** LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/savvycleaner/ Facebook: https://Facebook.com/SavvyCleaner Twitter: https://Twitter.com/SavvyCleane Instagram: https://Instagram.com/SavvyCleaner Pinterest: https://Pinterest.com/SavvyCleaner *** GOT A QUESTION FOR A SHOW? *** Email it to Angela[at]AskaHouseCleaner.com Voice Mail: Click on the blue button at https://askahousecleaner.com *** FREE EBOOK – HOW TO START YOUR OWN HOUSE CLEANING COMPANY *** http://amzn.to/2xUAF3Z *** PROFESSIONAL HOUSE CLEANERS PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProfessionalHouseCleaners/ *** VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/VRBO.Airbnb.Cleaning/ *** LOOKING FOR WAY TO GET MORE CLEANING LEADS *** https://housecleaning360.com *** WHAT IS ASK A HOUSE CLEANER? *** Ask a House Cleaner is a daily show where you get to ask your house cleaning questions and we provide answers. Learn how to clean. How to start a cleaning business. Marketing and advertising tips for your cleaning service. How to find top quality house cleaners, housekeepers, and maids. Employee motivation tactics. Strategies to boost your cleaning clientele. And cleaning company expansion help. Our host, Angela Brown, ran and managed one of the largest independently owned cleaning companies in the Southeast for 25-years. She’s the CEO, and founder of Savvy Cleaner Training for House Cleaners and Maids. *** SPONSORSHIPS & BRANDS *** We do work with sponsors and brands. If you are interested in working with us and you have a product or service that is cohesive to the cleaning industry read this: https://savvycleaner.com/product-review *** THIS SHOW WAS SPONSORED BY *** SAVVY CLEANER - House Cleaner Training and Certification – https://savvycleaner.com MY CLEANING CONNECTION – Your hub for all things cleaning – https://mycleaningconnection.com SAVVY PERKS – Employee Benefits for Small Business Owners – https://savvyperks.com VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING – Cleaning tips and strategies for your short-term rental https://TurnoverCleaningTips.com *** VIDEO CREDITS *** VIDEO/AUDIO EDITING: Kristin O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/kristin-o POST PRODUCTION: Amber O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/amber-o HOST: Angela Brown https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/angela-brown PRODUCER: Savvy Cleaner https://savvycleaner.com

What Do YOU Want? Have You Put Your Desires into Words Yet?

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 6, 2020 7:09

What do you want, and will you recognize it when you get it? Have you put what you want into words? You can focus on what matters by automating admin tasks with HousecallPro.com/Angela It's possible that you already have what you've been wishing for. If you haven't identified what you want, the time to start is now. Sometimes, the things we need are right in front of us. Today's #AskaHouseCleaner sponsors are Savvy Cleaner training for professional house cleaners and maids. And Housecall Pro. #AngelaBrown #SavvyCleaner *** RATE THIS SHOW *** https://sotellus.com/r/savvy-cleaner *** RATE THIS PODCAST *** https://ratethispodcast.com/askahousecleaner *** FAST TRACK TO CLEANING SUCCESS *** https://SavvyCleaner.com/Calendar-of-Courses *** MOST REQUESTED LIST OF CLEANING STUFF I USE *** https://www.Amazon.com/shop/AngelaBrown ***FUNNY CLEANING SHIRTS – DAILY GIVEAWAY*** Enter to Win - https://funnycleaningshirts.com *** MORE VIDEOS ON THIS TOPIC *** Don't Know What You Want? Answer This Question - Mel Robbins - https://youtu.be/NIhvmkBsBgU How to Figure Out What You REALLY Want - Gillian Perkins - https://youtu.be/kph1lSLdC3U Self-Awareness: Know Yourself: Gary Vaynerchuk - GaryVee - https://youtu.be/j6tKf1IR5j8 Anthony Robbins: What do you really want in life? - Success Resources Australia - https://youtu.be/H0guq15_S4E How to Figure Out What You Really Want | Ashley Stahl | TEDxLeidenUniversity - TEDx Talks - https://youtu.be/bRtBHF-WPpM *** GOOD KARMA RESOURCES FROM THIS EPISODE *** These good karma links connect you to Amazon.com and affiliated sites that offer products or services that relate to today’s show. When you click on the links and buy the items you pay the exact same prices or less than if you found the links on your own elsewhere. The difference is that we make a small commission here at the show for sharing these links with you. Discover Your Why: Find Your Strengths, Use Obstacles to Your Benefit, and Lead A Purpose Driven Life - https://amzn.to/2VazpSK The Power of Moments: Why Certain Experiences Have Extraordinary Impact - https://amzn.to/2VaZWPW The Right Questions: Ten Essential Questions to Guide You To An Extraordinary Life - http://amzn.to/2xGxFUV How to Be Happy at Work: The Power of Purpose, Hope, and Friendship - https://amzn.to/2A17COS Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us - http://amzn.to/2wBAHg4 *** CONNECT WITH ANGELA ON SOCIAL MEDIA *** LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/savvycleaner/ Facebook: https://Facebook.com/SavvyCleaner Twitter: https://Twitter.com/SavvyCleane Instagram: https://Instagram.com/SavvyCleaner Pinterest: https://Pinterest.com/SavvyCleaner *** GOT A QUESTION FOR A SHOW? *** Email it to Angela[at]AskaHouseCleaner.com Voice Mail: Click on the blue button at https://askahousecleaner.com *** FREE EBOOK – HOW TO START YOUR OWN HOUSE CLEANING COMPANY *** http://amzn.to/2xUAF3Z *** PROFESSIONAL HOUSE CLEANERS PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProfessionalHouseCleaners/ *** VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/VRBO.Airbnb.Cleaning/ *** LOOKING FOR WAY TO GET MORE CLEANING LEADS *** https://housecleaning360.com *** WHAT IS ASK A HOUSE CLEANER? *** Ask a House Cleaner is a daily show where you get to ask your house cleaning questions and we provide answers. Learn how to clean. How to start a cleaning business. Marketing and advertising tips for your cleaning service. How to find top quality house cleaners, housekeepers, and maids. Employee motivation tactics. Strategies to boost your cleaning clientele. And cleaning company expansion help. Our host, Angela Brown, ran and managed one of the largest independently owned cleaning companies in the Southeast for 25-years. She’s the CEO, and founder of Savvy Cleaner Training for House Cleaners and Maids. *** SPONSORSHIPS & BRANDS *** We do work with sponsors and brands. If you are interested in working with us and you have a product or service that is cohesive to the cleaning industry read this: https://savvycleaner.com/product-review *** THIS SHOW WAS SPONSORED BY *** SAVVY CLEANER - House Cleaner Training and Certification – https://savvycleaner.com MY CLEANING CONNECTION – Your hub for all things cleaning – https://mycleaningconnection.com SAVVY PERKS – Employee Benefits for Small Business Owners – https://savvyperks.com VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING – Cleaning tips and strategies for your short-term rental https://TurnoverCleaningTips.com *** VIDEO CREDITS *** VIDEO/AUDIO EDITING: Kristin O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/kristin-o POST PRODUCTION: Amber O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/amber-o HOST: Angela Brown https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/angela-brown PRODUCER: Savvy Cleaner https://savvycleaner.com

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Why Say No to Money and Bootstrap?

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 15, 2020 28:14

Show NotesTo fundraise or not, that is the question in this episode. Angela walks through the decision making process around whether Clinnect should go after institutional money or to bootstrap. Listen to find out what she decided.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)Transcript[00:00:00]Angela: it's a cute chair. Not a ergonomic chair.[00:00:04] Jonathan: Oh, ergonomics. I, so I've come to the conclusion that money should not be spared on shoes, mattresses and chairs.[00:00:18] Angela: I'm with you on shoes and mattresses... chairs, I'm not sold.[00:00:26]Jonathan: we have, their, their retail is like $1,200. The chairs at the office. Yeah. They don't, I don't get them for retail. I[00:00:35] Angela: I would[00:00:37] Jonathan: know, but still they're like 400 bucks, $450 for the chairs.[00:00:41] Angela: expensive.[00:00:43] Jonathan: They're pretty pricey, but they are there. They're very, very comfortable.[00:00:47]I needed something where the, The, the arms could move up and down. Cause I like that that's important to me. And then it's just like a proper arrogance and you can pick and choose the color.[00:00:57] So I've got orange back[00:00:59] Angela: Oh, and a blue bottom[00:01:01] Jonathan: I believe seat and it works pretty good. And then, and then I have an in, at a furniture supply company and she said, no, don't those ones are good, but these ones are way better. And the[00:01:11] Angela: like $20 more.[00:01:13] Jonathan: Yeah, her price was a little bit more. And now we've got all sorts of colours.[00:01:15] So Paige's is yellow and gray and mine is red and gray. Yeah.[00:01:20] Angela: Okay, you guys[00:01:22] Jonathan: I like, I just, it here's a pet peeve of mine, corporate gear that is all black, like hoodies, all black hoodies, like, and then just, here's the standard chair. It's gotta be black. Why can't people have a little bit of expression. So we pick the chairs that are, uh, uh, uh, let us pick the fabric,[00:01:44]Angela: That's cool.Introduction[00:01:44] You're listening to Fixing Faxes a podcast on the journey of building a digital health startup with your host myself, Angela Hapke.[00:01:54] Jonathan: And I'm Jonathan Bowers and I've started Zach in daycare. Yeah.[00:02:03] Angela: How are you feeling? How's Julie feeling?[00:02:06] Jonathan: Uh, it's pretty scary. We were just doing transition. So every, every day, this week I'm going with him for an hour and being with[00:02:15] Angela: Yep.[00:02:16] Jonathan: week, just gets gradually, uh, longer. And I'm, I'm not[00:02:20] Angela: And then you[00:02:21] Jonathan: And then we start on the, the first, uh, that, uh, the eighth or whatever that first day in September is.[00:02:28] Oh, it's scary. It's scary. And, and then, then yesterday[00:02:37] we get a call. Okay. So one of the other, uh, families, has to self isolate. This may have been in contact with COVID and I was like, okay, well, this is the new reality, I[00:02:47] Angela: This is your new reality. This is a hard moment in life in an especially hard time. Oh,[00:02:55]Jonathan: He's doing quite well. He, we went the first day. He cried when we went in there. So one of the, one of the strange things that we've noticed about the pandemic and our, trying to follow the rules, so we don't go anywhere, but like, we don't go into buildings, we don't go places and we don't take Zach[00:03:13] Angela: of course. Yeah.[00:03:15] Jonathan: And so I can't remember where we went once and he was really afraid to go inside a door. He, he looked at this new space and he didn't want to go inside. And we thought, Oh, this is, this is cause he's deconditioned to going places. And then kind of the same thing at, at[00:03:29] Angela: Oh, sugar.[00:03:31] Jonathan: he was. Um, he was okay.[00:03:34] Kind of going in, but he didn't want to be inside the room and it was a little bit overwhelming and he cried a bit and, uh, he, he calmed down fairly quickly. Um, and then he cried again when one of the when, one of the girls that was there, kind of ran ran at him. He didn't like that very much. but he got used to it and yesterday we just spent the hour or outside[00:03:53] Angela: Yeah. Lovely.[00:03:54] Jonathan: that was, that was really fun. Um, yeah, I think, I think he's going to be okay. He's going to be okay. I know he's going to be, yeah. Okay. Um, but it's, it's hard.[00:04:04] Angela: It was about, um, two years ago, right around now is when we drop, started dropping off Nora for the first time. The first time that the actual drop-off happened , I wanted to be the one that did it, I'm going to drop off the girls.[00:04:22]and then I just sat out in my car and cried. Both times, like I was like, so adamant that I was going to be the one that did it. And then I sat out in my car and cried and cried and cried and then phoned Brad both times like, Oh,[00:04:39] Jonathan: it's hard. So I've been taking him because, um, cause I worked from home and I'm like, it's just. You know, five minute drive away. So it makes sense for me to be dropping him off and picking him up. And Julie works kind of across town, um, in our minds, she had planned on being the one to take them through transition[00:04:56] Angela: Of course. Yeah.[00:04:57] Jonathan: but they said like, no, it needs to be one parent for the whole, the whole two weeks. And so we decided it makes the most sense for me to get familiar with it because I'm going to be do to dropping things off. So it was, yeah, it was really hard.[00:05:10] Cause you know, she was kind of geared up to[00:05:13] Angela: she was ready. She was[00:05:14] Jonathan: to go and do it and now she doesn't get to and I'm, I'm the one doing it. So, um,[00:05:19]Angela: it's[00:05:19] okay. If you sit in your car and cry after,[00:05:23] Jonathan: I, yeah, I I'm, I am a more emotional about this than I expected to be[00:05:29] Angela: and it slaps you in the side of the face and you don't expect it and you're just like what?[00:05:33]And good for you for taking time off right now. I think for too often, we don't take time off in these. Um, times in our life where there's some like there's change. We always like, Oh, I'll, I'll take time off for vacations. And I must have vacations and holidays and things like that, but we kind of forget that we need space around big change times[00:05:55]Jonathan: I think I recognized it, but I didn't, I didn't realize it was going to be quite as necessary. Like I thought, Oh, you know, I can, I can do half days or something like, no, I'll do the full days. Cause I got lots of like projects. I want to do some reading and some other things that are like just sort of recharged, but.[00:06:11] Wow. I'm glad I have all morning to just think and stew about taking Zach to his daycare for an hour in the afternoon, and then it's over and done. And then we go play and, uh, it's a lot better.[00:06:24] Angela: Oh, that's amazing.[00:06:26] Oh, so fun. I love it. That's great. You guys are gonna do amazing.[00:06:32]Bootstrapping[00:06:32] Jonathan: I hope so. Funding bootstrapping. What does bootstrapping[00:06:39] Angela: Should one bootstrap. Um,[00:06:42] Jonathan: one bootstrap? I think I understand what the term bootstrapping means, but I, I feel a little fuzzy on it.[00:06:48]Angela: So bootstrapping to me may mean something different than it does to other people. I think bootstrapping, um, is like this broad term. And what I do feel like is it's more what it's not, and it's not venture capital. , it's not going out and fund raising.[00:07:08] Jonathan: right. Okay.[00:07:09]Angela: Um, it's finding a way to do it, uh, among your tight, small team. In a lot of cases. I think for founders, it's probably just themselves, family and friends, uh, things like that, but it's not going out and doing the flashy venture capital parade.[00:07:32] Jonathan: The parade, the pageantry.[00:07:35] Angela: Right. It is a little bit,[00:07:40] Jonathan: so this, so, so CRS and Clinnect is not, um, not venture venture backed, so there's no, there's no institutional money. There's no external money either. I don't[00:07:55] Angela: there's no external money. There's no institutional money. There's no venture money. There's no ink angel money. Um, outside of, you know, co-founders, there's, um, There's none of that, but it was a process to get there to decide that. And I think that's more, what I kind of wanted to talk about today was if somebody like understanding what bootstrapping versus investment looks like capital investment looks like, and then why we went the route that we did. I think it's an interesting process.[00:08:28] Jonathan: Well, I mean, walk me through that a little bit. Like the, so it's not venture funded. I mean, there, there, there certainly is I don't want to say pressure, but there is a bit of keeping up with the Joneses-ness to venture funding, where people celebrate how much[00:08:43] funding you've[00:08:44] Angela: moly. Right.[00:08:46] Jonathan: And, uh, I remember, I think it might have been like Steve again, Steve Wandler said, you know, you don't celebrate the fact that the chef went and acquired all the ingredients.[00:08:57] Angela: I like that a lot.[00:08:59] Jonathan: you don't celebrate that you celebrate the, the meal.[00:09:02] Angela: Yeah,[00:09:03] Jonathan: yeah, not the fact that he went shopping.[00:09:04] Angela: no, but way too often, we are celebrating this shopping. you see, so often all these people celebrating these, you know, seed funding series A, series B, closures of millions and millions or whatever it looks like. And it's attractive who doesn't want to go out and get millions of dollars and say that you did.[00:09:29]Um, but back to Steve's point is. But I also don't want to just celebrate the fact that I went out and got some ingredients who[00:09:38] Jonathan: you still have to, you still have to mix all that stuff together and[00:09:41] Angela: got to do it.[00:09:42] The Pressure to Raise MoneyJonathan: yeah. Still do it. Still make the business makes sense. So did you feel that, did you feel that pressure, that, um, peer pressure to go off and do some external funding.[00:09:52] Angela: it's industry pressure. I think it's peer pressure. I think it's Oh gosh. It even comes to like, it feels like a bit of a popularity pressure. Just like all these kinds of things. Yeah, absolutely. It got, I got caught up in that for a little bit. I figured we could. We had a good idea.[00:10:07]who is to say that we couldn't do that? there was a time when I wanted to go out and fundraise and go down that road. And then a couple of things happened that really changed the course and man Steve Wandler's going to get some shout outs in this episode, but he sat me down and said, um, okay, Angela, First off what's your TAM Tam is your total accessible market. We're dealing with primary care providers and specialists our customers. So it gave them the numbers, kind of Western Canada, Canada. And he just looked at me and he's like, you're not going to get any institutional money with that TAM.[00:10:53] And it was so embarrassing because I was like, yeah, you're absolutely right. How the hell did I figure that I was going to, like, it was just so obvious.[00:11:04] Jonathan: Right.[00:11:05]Angela: Um, So, I mean, that was the number one thing where I was like, well, this is like, why would I bother then? so then that was kind of like the fall of last year.[00:11:16] And I was like, okay.[00:11:19] Jonathan: Sorry, can we just, before we go onwards, so the, you looked at the numbers for, for your total addressable market for your TAM and it's, it's too small?[00:11:28] Angela: Too small. Yeah. For, for institutional money. So institutional money wants to see high growth, high numbers. They want to see millions of users. They want to see, um, the fact that you can be the horse that wins the race in like the money race. Right. And with a TAM, just at this point, focused on Canadian doctors is not a number large enough for institutional investors to be interested in you.[00:11:58]And it was a bit, like I said, it was a bit embarrassing because I probably should have figured that out, but it took somebody to kind of like, look back at me and hold the mirror up and go. How do you figure that this would you're right? It won't. So that w that was a big one. It was also becoming, Oh, how, how do I say that?[00:12:20] It was also becoming, not just a distraction, it was spending so much time trying to learn about institutional money, learn about, um, who was doing what out there, uh, how to do it, how to align, how to find an investor, how to find an investor that aligns with the principles and ethos of your company. And I mean, and that's, you know, we'll get to the kind of that part and the fact that we're a social enterprise and you need that alignment more so than ever.[00:12:55] I wanted smart money. meaning that I wanted an institutional investor that was, that knew about digital health and understood the product and the market and, and it was just becoming overwhelming, distracting and I was spending too much time.[00:13:14] Focusing on that rather than focusing on what the, what the hell did the product look like? What were, what were we building? What did the meal look like versus what ingredients did I want?[00:13:25] Jonathan: Yeah. And at that point you didn't have a sense of, um, yeah, there wasn't, there was no[00:13:31] Angela: There was no product. We had ideas. We had nothing, and that was the other thing we were going to go out. And what was I thinking? I was going to go out and sell, uh, an idea. Uh, with a small TAM to institutional investors, I would've got laughed out of rooms. that was the first reason that we were just like, no. Up until last year, around this time we had floated ourselves on government funding.[00:14:00] Uh, we did fine. Like we paid salaries. So that was like, well, some salaries and that was partially paid for people.[00:14:10] Jonathan: To be clear. You haven't, you don't owe people money.[00:14:14] Angela: Oh, no, no.[00:14:17] Jonathan: weren't drawing a salary is what you're[00:14:19] Angela: Yes, exactly.[00:14:21] Jonathan: Okay.[00:14:22] Angela: We also didn't have, like, it wasn't really employees at that point, they were all contractors. it was a project. If you very much look at like, you know, um, the idea of a project and that's what we were doing, then the next thing I thought was, well, we have to look for venture capital.[00:14:37] That's what people do in my position at this point. We're running out of money. So what do we do? Well, we go out and find money. Um, so then that, that reality check last fall was a harsh one, but an incredibly important one. And then that's when I decided, well, we need to make this work, um, by bootstrapping.[00:15:01] And so bootstrapping is in my, in my definition in Angela Hapke's definition of bootstrapping it is you find money. Among your, um, very close group of people. So in my case, it was, um, co founders and, uh, and I think it's typically they're founders co-founders or maybe a small friends and family. I don't even know if that's, is it friends and family round con I guess, would that be considered bootstrapping?[00:15:29] Jonathan: I mean, I would think so.[00:15:31] Angela: I feel like it's on the cusp,[00:15:32] Jonathan: your friends and family, certainly they don't have the sophistication to invest like an institutional investor would. I think it's more like, it's more like they're investing in you, not[00:15:45] the business. So I think that would be.[00:15:48]Finding Money When You're Running Out[00:15:48] Angela: So we got, yeah, so we got to the point where it was about January, February, we were running out of money. I think we had, you know, And I have no problem saying this because it is, it's kind of humorous and I think people need to hear the reality of all of this is I sat my shareholders down and I said, we have, um, one more payroll left in the bank account and that we're done.[00:16:13] I was like, so I don't know what to do next. I've done everything I can up until this point. And, and now, now I'm looking at you guys to help out. And, uh, that's when we bootstrapped, we got some people from the group that said, yep, we will help fund this, uh, for the next year. It was the best thing in so many ways.[00:16:36] What it did is it reengaged the group of people that I was, was working with, um, had skin in the game again, and I think for me, what it was too, is these are smart people. And they believed in me and the idea, and that was so empowering and just allowed me to, to kind of have the confidence to make the decisions again and like move forward.[00:17:04] So it was, it was honestly, the best thing that could have happened for us was to just say, No more going after institutional money. It's not going to be there. It's going to be a distraction. It's going to be overwhelming. You're probably not going to be successful. Your failure rate is high. Um, what else can you do?[00:17:22] And I was lucky enough to have a few people that were willing to say we can help.[00:17:27] Jonathan: Yeah, I think also, uh, it would be a very strange conversation with a venture capitalist to go in and say, um, our cofounders who are surgeons didn't put in any money of their own.[00:17:39] Angela: Now let's be clear. They like everybody had put in money at this point. Yep. Yep. But, um, to, to go to them and say, uh, they're not willing to put in anymore. Maybe, uh, it just would have been a really awkward comfort. Like there's so many reasons it would have been a bad conversation.[00:17:56]Jonathan: Like this so much money that you're a founders and co founders and friends and family can kick[00:18:01] in. So if you were successful at getting some institutional money that would be maybe multiples or orders of magnitude more money, perhaps. The founders and friends and family are writing much smaller checks than venture capitalists would. So does does not having that in place. What does that change for you and for the plans of the business?[00:18:21] Angela: I think for us, it made us focus on the business plan itself, focus on the cashflow models. I ended up having to build out a very detailed three-year cashflow model and understand it so well. And really, really focus on the, um, the minutiae of, of the, the product and the company and understanding that that has helped me make better decisions.[00:18:48]it's also helped us, hopefully, because we still know are not sustainable, but hopefully create a sustainable business model in the end is B because we are kind of penny pinching. it's forcing us to be really, uh, resilient and really kind of tight with our, with our money, like make really good decisions.[00:19:07] We're not going out and just hiring a bunch of people.[00:19:10]I think at the end of the day is the big question is, um, and I, you were alluding to it is, is, does this inhibit the growth of the company does not taking the big check mean that you're on a different trajectory than if you were to take that big check.[00:19:26] I think it's so individualized to the company, the founders and things like that that, you know, to answer that question, I think for us, I think it would have put us on, um, not a great path. I truly think that the one that we're on is the right one and the one that we should be on.[00:19:45] I think there's a lot of people out there that don't think you can grow without institutional based money. and I think that's wrong. I, I think, I think there's so many other reasons that you can grow, attracting the right talent, having a sustainable business plan that makes sense. And having a product that people want.[00:20:02] I mean, the list goes on. It does not have to do with how big, the size of the check that you got was.[00:20:08]Jonathan: we're not trying to be a Facebook or an Instagram where that growth, that growth is so expensive because it's yeah, like you acquire customers one like without even necessarily having a business model. the business model makes sense.[00:20:23] Right? You're the business model is you're getting money from customers, not, not from somewhere else or some imagined other place that you haven't figured out yet. So that seems pretty clear.[00:20:34]you're not going to get that hypergrowth, which I don't think you were going to get anyways.[00:20:39] Angela: Exactly. I don't think we, we had the model for hyper growth anyway. Why, which would have been another reason that I probably would've got laughed out of rooms. Right? Like it would have just been like, no, thank you very much, but carry on. we're not the pony that's gonna win the money race.[00:20:57] Right. And that's what, that's what institutional money is really geared towards. There's also a, like for us, we're a social enterprise. We have values and ethos at the epicenter of what we're doing and how hard it would have been to maintain those at the epicenter with, um, a really large check and an expectation with that large check to grow, grow, grow at all costs.[00:21:28]Jonathan: you wouldn't just be taking on money, you'd also be taking on some new bosses[00:21:32] Angela: Bingo. Yep. And that's another reason w uh, would have, um, been a really difficult path to find the right person. Um, we would've needed somebody that understood, uh, the industry understood the world that we were kind of in, that also had money that also was okay with us having, you know, security, privacy, and patients at the, at the center of our model.[00:21:58] Not, return on investment.[00:22:01]Finding Money In Kamloops[00:22:01]Jonathan: I think one of the other issues that might be interesting here is that like being in Kamloops, there's very few, there's very few people in Kamloops that are writing checks.[00:22:12]Um, I can. Count on my hands. The few that I know who might, but they also don't have the experience like, so, so who in Kamloops can one write a check to, has some understanding of operating a digital health company? And three is interested in some of the social side of things.[00:22:34]Angela: I don't even, I don't, I don't even know. So no one in Kamloops for sure. BC would be even a question mark. And then getting out of that, I mean, I'm. I haven't been in the tech industry for decades. I don't know all the names of all the people. And so just getting in front of people would have been absolutely hard.[00:22:53] High effort, low success.[00:22:56]Jonathan: because you're kind of the only founder, I mean, that's not true, like you have other founders, but you're the only one that is, um, operational. Right. So, yeah, you're, you're the one that is building the product, finding customers, managing the whole, the whole thing.[00:23:16] So then to free you to spend half or all of your time trying to find the, you know, that one or two individual investors who would make a difference, seems like, like a flat. Yeah, like you said, like an extreme amount[00:23:31] Angela: an extreme amount of effort. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I mean, when I put it, you know, and I put it back to my co founders to say, Hey, We're we're in a really tough spot right now, and this is what it's going to take to get us out of it. Um, and they said, yes, that might have been like, I mean, in this whole journey of Clinnect, that might've been one of the highlights for me the day that we launched the product was amazing also.[00:24:03] But when they like, literally came back and said, absolutely, we got you. Wow.[00:24:10]Um, and to be honest on it, then I was scared to ask because it was a big ask and these people, I consider friends and it was a really hard thing to ask, but then I also come back to, well, if I can't ask my co founders and they can't explain it to them , do I think I'm cocky enough to then go walk into a room of strangers and pitch it to them maybe, but like, probably shouldn't if I can't even pitch it to my own, you know, founder group. It's such a tough decision. Like even when you know, Steve was like, I don't even know why you're considering this.[00:24:50] I was a fit like. But maybe I could, like maybe I could come up with and why I can convince you, you know, but it's such a journey. All of this is such a journey, hoof. This one's been a really eyeopening.[00:25:11]Having a Startup Confident[00:25:11] I have a friend who's also like, so she's a co founder of a tech company in Regina and we are so similar in where we sit.[00:25:20] Like we are both the co founder the operational co-founder she's. She sits as the CEO also. we both are building a team. We launched our products within two months of each other. Uh, we both have little girls that are like roughly the same age. Like we're just, like I found, I found my, like my, my tech BFF and she went after, uh, institutional money.[00:25:49] So this has been a really interesting journey. And we like, we have FaceTime coffee every Tuesday and we talk about life and the products and just everything. Like we talked about everything and it's been so interesting to hear her journey around going after the big checks and going after, um, yeah.[00:26:10] The institutional money. And I tell you the amount of time that she spends doing that is her. Yeah,[00:26:20] Jonathan: Does she regret it?[00:26:21] Angela: no, no. She has a product that makes it makes a heck of a lot more sense. Um, uh, but it's been really interesting to like, have our like, compare worlds around that yeah, it's just, it's, it's an interesting world and I'm not, and I, I'm not saying that she shouldn't have gone for that money. I think, I think what the, what it's done is it's made a lot of sense for her. It's introduced her to a lot of people that have helped her too.[00:26:49] So even the introductions themselves have been amazing. it's so individual, but I think it's so attractive to go after institutional money that sometimes we have to just pause and really understand is this the right thing for the company is the right thing for, for you as the founder too, because it can change everything. Yeah. And I'm glad we I'm glad we didn't. I'm glad we are on the path that we chose.[00:27:21] Ask me in a year though. Maybe am I still happy with my decision?Outro[00:27:30]Jonathan: Thanks for listening to Fixing Faxes, building a digital health startup.[00:27:34] I am Jonathan Bowers. My cohost is Angela Hapke. Our music is by Andrew Codeman. Follow us on Twitter @FixingFaxes. You can find us wherever you like to listen to podcasts. We'd love for you to do us a favor and tell a friend. Thanks for listening. boop, boop, boop[00:27:56] Angela: We had Nora's birthday, third birthday.[00:28:00]She wanted for a cake.[00:28:02] it was, I would like a rainbow farm cake.[00:28:06] Jonathan: Yeah, of course like a farm that grows rainbows.[00:28:09] Angela: I have no idea.

covid-19 ceo money canada technology canadian healthcare startups pressure focusing funding bc say no lovely facetime bff tam bootstrapping joneses digital health western canada bootstrap kamloops crs running out tamtam woman ceo jonathan yeah angela how angela it andrew codeman

What's Keeping Angela Up At Night?

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 8, 2020 27:01

Show NotesAfter taking a few weeks off of recording Jonathan and Angela discuss everything from Star Wars to passwords to what keeps Angela up at night. There are some bloopers to keep it real and difficult conversations about balancing the users wants with the integrity of system. Angela and Jonathan deep dive into conversation to talk through a difficult product feature decision. In this episode listeners get a peek into real conversations behind the scenes of building a digital health product.Password hygiene is a topic that we discuss a lot in this episode, there are some great articles if listeners wanted to dive into that information. Here are some articles:Cisco MagF-Secure BlogPassword managers are a great way to use unique passwords as Jonathan mentions in this episode. Examples of password managers are 1Password and LastPass.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)Transcript[00:00:00] Jonathan: oh yeah, we got change to not Thursday.[00:00:03] Angela: It's like perfect timing.[00:00:06] Jonathan: changed the lawnmower now it's a different kind of lawnmower.[00:00:08] Angela: louder.[00:00:11]Jonathan: Uh, hi, I'm Jonathan Bowers is wait, I'm doing the intro.[00:00:17] Angela: Oh, no. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.[00:00:20]Intro Jonathan: Hi, you're listening to fixing faxes. And I'm your host Jonathan Bowers[00:00:26] Angela: and I'm Angela Hapke. And so I haven't watched any of the Star Wars movies.[00:00:37] Jonathan: at all?[00:00:39] Angela: Ever at all. So I've watched bits. Like you, you always see clips of them or maybe bits and pieces, but I've never seen a full Star Wars movie.[00:00:50] Jonathan: At all? And you are, you are, you are a member of society?[00:00:56] Angela: Okay![00:01:01] Jonathan: Did, how does, how did you manage to avoid watching any Star Wars[00:01:05] Angela: I'm not even sure. To be honest. I, I I'm unsure of how this has all came about. And I'm one of those people that don't want to jump in in the middle. So I always felt like I had to watch the previous ones before I could watch the new ones. And because of that, I've just never put in the effort.[00:01:23] Jonathan: It is a lot. It's a,[00:01:24] Angela: It's and it's an effort,[00:01:26] Jonathan: it's a saga.[00:01:28] Angela: I've started watching the Mandalorian.[00:01:31] Jonathan: Oh, good for you. Do you like it?[00:01:34] Angela: I really like it.[00:01:36] Jonathan: It's really good.[00:01:37] Angela: is, only, I'm only on episode three, I think three or four. And, um, I really like it.[00:01:47] Jonathan: Why do you like it?[00:01:49] Angela: Oh my goodness. Well, it was. I don't know. I like it. It feels like an old, like, it feels like a Western,[00:01:58] Jonathan: It is, it is a[00:01:59] Angela: right yet to set in some time. And, um, I don't know. There's something charming about[00:02:13] wait, are you a big fan[00:02:16] Jonathan: I'm a big fan.[00:02:17] Angela: or a big fan? Okay.[00:02:19] Jonathan: I mean, I wouldn't say I'm a big fan. I would say.[00:02:22] I'm a pretty big fan. Yeah. I really like, I like star Wars. I like, uh, I've played some of the video games. Um, I have a board game, this like cool X-Wing game. That's that's quite fun. I bought just, just before COVID and now I have no one to play with. Um, Zach's too little and it's not Julie's kind of game.[00:02:35] Okay. Um, yeah, I'm a fan.[00:02:38] Angela: So I find fans always have an order that they suggest that other people watch the movies in.[00:02:47]Jonathan: I, I, my belief is to watch it and it's how I think I want to watch it with Zach when he's old enough is, uh, four or five, six. one two, three,[00:02:57]Rogue One, uh, then four, five, six, again. Yeah, that's seven, eight, nine. Then you can go back and watch Solo and whatever the other one was.[00:03:08] Angela: Okay. So I think I'll just watch them in release date order.[00:03:13] I think I might watch it with Alex. I think she's old enough to watch all of those.[00:03:18] Yeah.[00:03:19] Jonathan: You never, you never not old enough. Yeah. Yep, two.[00:03:25]Password Resets[00:03:25] Angela: But that's uh, what are we going to talk about[00:03:29] Jonathan: I have no idea. Honestly, I have no clue. Um, I would like to get to some community stuff at some point and some interviews or some guests, but, um, we can just talk about like, what's going on in product land. Uh, we can talk about password resets.[00:03:47] Angela: Password resets.[00:03:50]Jonathan: so , uh, it was hard to read your emotions in that meeting just now that we had, when we were talking about password resets. so I wasn't sure if you were upset, if you were disappointed, um, in like the way that product has been built, if you were disappointed in users,[00:04:03] Angela: God, you're going down a rabbit hole, Jonathan.[00:04:05] Jonathan: Yeah, no, it's just, it was very difficult to read you to read you on the video call. Like w there was very little, uh, body language to go off of. Um, and I was, I was watching, like, I flipped to, like, I often just flip to like see everyone mode so that I can, like, I just find that better.[00:04:20] Angela: Oh, I like the gallery view better on[00:04:21] Jonathan: yeah. Gallery view. Thank you. And, uh, yeah, you just, you were just seemed like maybe something was going on. I thought I'd check in.[00:04:30] Angela: this is so funny. my nonverbal can be quite loud sometimes.[00:04:34] Jonathan: Sometimes.[00:04:35] Angela: Yup. And I think when it's not, people tend to be like, What's up. What's going on,[00:04:43] Jonathan: The silence is just as[00:04:45] Angela: Okay. No, no. I think for me what it is is, um, Things have gone relatively smoothly with product development thus far. We have always kind of had this good, a flow of, of maybe not knowing exactly what our user needs next, but having a really good idea of what they need next.[00:05:12] And I feel like with this password reset, um, or lack of due to the the encryption, the end to end encryption that we have on this, on this product is I, not that I feel like we're letting our users down because I think there's massive pros to this and we have to communicate that somehow. But I also feel like this is like a bit of a disappointment factor with them that we can't just do a password reset.[00:05:41] Jonathan: Yeah, it seems like uneasy feature. Like it seems like something that everything does. I forgot my password. I'll just reset it.[00:05:48] Angela: Exactly. And maybe talk a little bit about why we can't just do that because I don't think I can talk that well about it.[00:05:56] Jonathan: That's fair. Um, yeah. So the previous episode, I think we talked about the fact that this Clinnect is encrypted end to end. We, we, as the builders of the product, can't see anything. There's, I mean, there's bits of stuff that we don't encrypt because we need to, like, we need to know who the referral goes to, that sort of thing, but we can't see any patient information.[00:06:16] So all of that information is completely hidden from us. The only way to unlock that is with the password from the user that unlocks that data. Right. So if they that's the key, that's literally the key. If they lose that or forget that they've lost the key. And so we can't go in and recover that data for them.[00:06:37] Angela: Exactly.[00:06:38] Jonathan: So it different than, uh, and the example that Chris was giving like Facebook, right? Like if you lose your password on Facebook, you just go in and request a password reset. Really, all they're doing is just verifying that you are who you claim to be. So they follow up with maybe a message on your phone or an email or something, and they give you a little link.[00:06:59] That's just proves that you still have access. Like you are. Still Angela. Um, the person requesting this password reset is Angela. So they go through something that they trust, like an email to send you a link, and then you click on that. And then that's like, okay, cool. We'll just throw away their old password, give them a new password, except that for us to do that, um, that would literally mean throwing away the key.[00:07:21] We don't have another key like that. That was the key. And so if you've forgotten the password or. Um, lose, you know, lose that password. You have lost the key to accessing the system. That's that's its strength. Um, but also the weakness from the perspective of the user, because now they can't access the data and we can't get it back for them.[00:07:43] Angela: And we, and that's the key right there too, is Facebook can give me back my password because they can see everything.[00:07:49] Jonathan: They see it all.[00:07:50] Angela: We don't see it all. We can't give you back your password. So we've had some users that have bumped into this, and we've had users that have reached out to me personally and gone we need this feature.[00:08:00] We need a password reset on, on, um, this application. And I think it's the first time that, you know, It seems like you say an easy fix. It's not an easy fix. It's not, it's not. Yeah. Um, it would compromise the integrity of the whole application if we just allowed a password reset. So we can't do that. Um, we've built this product, um, to be as secure and private as it is.[00:08:28] I mean, we just can't compromise that. So we're stuck in this really hard place where we have users that want to feature that they're used to seeing on many of them, their applications that they have without, you know, without even the need to understand why they, they don't have it here. Um, yet frustrated that they don't.[00:08:49] And so that was what you were seeing today in the call, I think was just my, my inner turmoil around really wanting to please the customer on this, but knowing, um, that pleasing the customer would, um, would degrade the integrity of the product. And I'm just not going to allow that.[00:09:05] Jonathan: Yeah. I think that's a good stance as uncomfortable as that can be sometimes, um, is to do what is right for the product. And in that, in that case, it's actually what's best for the patient.[00:09:17] Angela: exactly. And we do have to, we do have to go back to that. Um, and I think you often see that in our meetings is, you know, I'll kind of go, okay, well, hang on at the end of the day, what we're doing is we're ensuring a very safe product for our patients. We're ensuring that their information is being handled in the most appropriate way.[00:09:39] And, um, that's what it comes back to with this one again. Um, yeah, I'm just, I'm not compromising on the quality of the product on this one. But damn, it makes it hard to have that conversation with the users when it's, they don't understand it. They're not supposed to understand it. That's not for them to, I don't, I don't want to expect them to.[00:09:57] Jonathan: I don't think that they need to understand the technical details, but I think, I think there is an opportunity here to really show the users what good password hygiene looks like and why that's so important[00:10:10] um, we still, we need a way to allow them to recover because it's equally, it's equally bad for the patient. If,[00:10:17] if a specialist has received referrals and they can't get access to them[00:10:22] Angela: Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, we, and I think that's why in the end, what we ended up talking about was, um, a multilayered approach to this in that we have like plan A, B and C around account recovery.[00:10:39] And how are we going to ensure that our users can get back into their account? Um, cause like you say, if you know. We can't just reset the password because that compromises it. But we also, can't not let them get back into it. Cause that compromises too.[00:10:57] Jonathan: Yeah, and it, it just brings up so many interesting problems in this space and it it's the, it's the intersection of sort of, of technology and security and, um, the users, um, you know, the ease, the ease of[00:11:10] Angela: Exactly and that's yeah, that was what was frustrated with is I'm like, Oh, we are the ease of use.[00:11:19] Jonathan: I do think though. I really do think that if you can somehow treat this as an opportunity to show our users why this is important, um, that will benefit them, not just for this product, but across all of like other,[00:11:35] Angela: Yup. Yeah.[00:11:36] Jonathan: if they're reusing the same password, um, that's not great if they're also using pastors that are just easy to[00:11:41] Angela: Too easy to forget.[00:11:43] Jonathan: Yeah. That's and that that's that hints at this like weird problem in, in, in security, which is you want passwords that are very secure. but you also want them to be usable,[00:11:54] Angela: but not too usable, but somebody could pick to guest them.[00:11:58] Jonathan: Yeah. So it's, it's very, very tricky, but there are, there are tools that exist to help you with this. So we require everyone on our team to use a password manager. And so, um, like no one, no one on our team knows any of their passwords.[00:12:13] Angela: Right.[00:12:14]Jonathan: It's, it's managed by a tool that generates this randomly long, like this random string. That's very long. It's very, very hard to guess. I have a high degree of confidence that, um, all my passwords are unique.[00:12:26] I don't even know what they are, and even if they were to, even if they were to, uh, find my password, you know, say, say my password for Facebook was compromised. Like somebody, all of Facebook's, um, the database and. Like let loose all of the passwords. And this has happened lots of times.[00:12:43] There's lots of examples of large sets of data being hacked. And you can go and look like, look up your passwords and see if they've been hacked. Um, but the only thing they'll be able to get into is that one account, they won't be able to then get into a bunch of what other things, um,[00:12:58]Angela: you're not using the same password for[00:12:59] Jonathan: not using the same password for everything.[00:13:01] Yeah.[00:13:01] Angela: So the, um, I think the interesting part here though, is you guys are a sophisticated tech company.[00:13:15] Our users are not sophisticated tech company or sophisticated technology users and, um, almost most cases too. Right. And so that's where yes, that's where the turmoil was that you were seeing on my face in their meeting today is just really trying to figure out what's the best thing for our users and how to manage.[00:13:33]And I think the solution that we came up with is a tailored solution to the users that we have. If we had some very sophisticated users, we would probably suggest something like you just mentioned that you guys use for them. It's not going to be the case. It would be more of a sophisticated account recovery,[00:13:56] Jonathan: Yeah,[00:13:57] Angela: but it can't be this time. Um, it'll work, it'll be secure, but it's tailored for our users to, yeah. And so, yeah, that was an interesting one though. Like I say, up to this point, we were. I think we've really, we've really like, kind of had like some bumps, but not, not too many bumps.[00:14:16] And I feel like this one was the first like bigger usability bump that we've had.[00:14:23]Jonathan: I'm going to come back to the, like the education piece here. I actually think that if, if, uh, if someone is relying on password reset, um, That like, that's not good practice regardless. Like you shouldn't be doing that. So, so, you know, if you sign up for a thing and you're like, wow, just whatever, I'll just put in a password cause they make me, um, and I'll rely on password reset. Um,[00:14:46]Doing a way with it passwords is, is actually a pretty good sss arguably that's an interesting take on security is you just don't have passwords every time you want to log in. We just send you a special thing in your email because we trust that your email hasn't been compromised.[00:15:03] So we just send you a thing, an email, and you just click on the thing and it opens up and that's, that works for certain types of applications. It doesn't work for us because, because everything's encrypted and we can't send you that thing, because we can't get in.[00:15:15] Angela: Yep. So you're, you're wondering, is this a really good education opportunity or an awareness opportunity for our users to say, Hey, what'd you call it? Password hygiene[00:15:28] Jonathan: Yeah. Good password[00:15:30] Angela: Yeah. Here's some ideas. So. Um, the only reason I hesitate and don't jump, I think that is, I just feel like, Oh my gosh, is it another thing that we're going to have to awareness, educate, et cetera, et cetera about, um, do we have the bandwidth to also do that[00:15:50]does it take a lot of bandwidth? I don't know, but I think when you're so heads down in a startup and then you realize your is bumping into something like this. And then someone like yourself is like, this is a great opportunity to teach them password hygiene. I just feel like, Oh my God, another thing really, um,[00:16:09] you're not wrong.[00:16:10] I'm just like, I feel like I've just fatigued a wee bit.[00:16:14] Jonathan: that's fair. That's fair. And it's a funny, it's a funny piece though. Like it's different if it was, you know, if, if, if users were, you know, boy, I wish it did this feature. Right. And we can, we can kind of talk about how, um, okay. I mean, we don't really see the value in that, at least not right now, but this talking about access to the whole thing.[00:16:34] Angela: Yeah, like this is integral[00:16:37] in into the application. Yeah, I know. Yeah.[00:16:44]What Keeps You Up at Night?Jonathan: what else keeps you up at night?[00:16:48] Angela: You know, so this was a, um, somebody said to me the other day, when I was explaining to them what Clinnect was and what we were doing. And he says to me, he's like, Oh my gosh, all that patient data. Doesn't that keep you up at night? And do you know, because of that, what we were just talking about with the systems that we've put in the fact that no, you know, it's very hard to get into an account.[00:17:16] And even if you're just to get an account, you get into one account know, that's it like, because we've put up, we've done privacy by design. That actually does keep me up at night. What keeps me up at night now is like, We got to get more users.[00:17:35] Jonathan: Okay.[00:17:36] Angela: what's keeping me up at night right now. I'm like, we've got to get more users and we're at a weird, um, balancing point because we have specialists and we have primary care providers.[00:17:47] So we have two sets of users. One type of user wants more of the other type of user on before they jump on both ways.[00:17:57] Jonathan: chicken and egg.[00:17:58] Angela: Chicken and egg. And so, so, you know, like, and I think that's why you just kind of use the double barrel approach and just kind of push both at the same time. And hopefully you get to that balancing point, but that's, what's keeping me up at night right now is everybody's just a little bit sitting back and waiting and I'm like, no, just do it.[00:18:25] Jonathan: And it's, it's funny, like back, we talked about this eons to go, how there is this, it is kind of a marketplace. in that you've got specialists who need to receive referrals from a primary care providers and primary care providers who want to send a specialist and you're right. They both want more of the other because it becomes more valuable. If there was all the specialists on the system, then all[00:18:48] Angela: All the primary[00:18:49] Jonathan: providers would be like, Oh, sweet.[00:18:50] This is, this[00:18:51] Angela: And if all the primary care providers were using there'd be specialists, clamoring to get on.[00:18:57]Jonathan: it does feel like a little bit more weighted towards one, like one way, like the primary care providers have no reason to sign on if there's no specialists. So, but the specialists can sign on, even if there are no primary care providers. Right.[00:19:16] Angela: Correct, but what would be the value for them if there's no primary care providers[00:19:20] Jonathan: No, I, yeah, I get that, but, but there's also no risk.[00:19:25] Angela: Correct? The idea is to get all the specialists and all the primary care providers from our area on. And if we can do that, we can accomplish a couple of different things we can accomplish. Um, I mean, I think eyebrows would be raised in other areas to go, Whoa, what, what are they doing in Kamloops?[00:19:43] They have all the referrals going through one portal. It's all tracked. It's all secure. What an amazing, um, system that they have happening there. Um, what it also starts to do is you start allowing your specialists and your primary care providers to accurately track the referral management and numbers.[00:20:07] So we actually start to see, um, an really interesting thing happening with specialists. They're able to look at it and as a group go, Oh my gosh, the demand for our service is here and it's even broken down by these categories. And what that arms them with is really interesting data if they ever want to sit at tables.[00:20:29]Um, you know, when they're talking about, uh, additional resources for their hospital or additional resources for their area, and, and when you have, I have a whole geographic region on one system where they can start actually pulling accurate data from that becomes really, really interesting. So that's our focus right now.[00:20:49] Our focus is to get the users on from both sides specialists and primary care provider from our area on and, and really, um, you know, that's why we call Kamloops our beta community is because we've, we do truly want, um, that, and I think it would be powerful.[00:21:06] Jonathan: Do you think that there's a feature that we could build that would entice the specialists? Even if there wasn't, there wasn't a primary care providers and possibly never going to be primary care providers[00:21:22]Angela: I've never thought about a system that didn't have both.[00:21:25] Jonathan: Well, I like the, what you just described, you know, being able to analyze some of that demand data. Um, and that's, I mean, that's kind of what you started doing in the way back in the beginning was looking at the demand[00:21:38] Angela: we still, we still do like the consulting arm of central referral solutions. We'll actually do deep dives into your offices and EMR, and actually pull out that demand data. It's hard, it's expensive and it's labor intensive. Um, Clinnect is a product that was introduced that would help you do that a whole lot easier and a whole lot cheaper.[00:22:04] Jonathan: Right, but it, but it relies on the data coming through from primary care providers. Could, could we build, is there something small that we could build that, that lets the specialists sort of retroactively start, like putting in some of this data, like, like it's not hard for them. Well, maybe, maybe it is, but, you know, could they take, could they take the referrals that they've had in the last month or quarter or whatever, and then just like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to put these in and just see, you know, see where our demand is.[00:22:35] If that's, if that's valuable, then can we just, you know, type in all the referrals that came in and start to see some of that demand to data. And so use it as a bit of an, uh, a bit of an analytics tool, um, without, without actually getting any of the referrals coming through.[00:22:50] Angela: so Jackie has kind of built that. she has built programs that do the analytics around. So what it involves is, is us going into each individual office. And there's a reason for that to like, to actually physically go in their space is to understand how do they receive referrals?[00:23:09] Like as soon as you get a referral, is it put into your EMR right away? Is it not. Yeah. Like how do you manage those? And, um, with that tailored and customized approach, then you get true demand data. We've gone the, I like the extra hundred steps to actually analyzing wait time data along with that. So it's not just referral and demand data.[00:23:35] It's wait time data. But this is when we also get back into what we've talked about in a previous episode around categories. There's no categorization right now.[00:23:45] Jonathan: right.[00:23:45] Angela: Remember these, all these, all these referrals come in with no standard categories. So we do that in on top of, so like the, the, the consulting that we do is highly tailored and highly customized.[00:23:59] Um, it comes at a price, but it is very much worth it. judging from the results that we've we've had with giving that data back to the users themselves. So we're armed, we're literally just arming them with their own data. Jackie has built that, that tool. I'm not sure that it would be valuable in a, in a, like a smaller tool or a paired down tool.[00:24:27] Jonathan: Right.[00:24:28] Angela: I'm not sure how that would even look. And like I say, there's so many, so many things that we've learned through this, and this is why Clinnect came out of that. Mmm.[00:24:39] Starting this fall, we're going to do a big marketing push. Um, we, because we are focusing on the geographic area, we are literally going to go door knocking. Um, we're we have an intern that we've hired. Um, her whole job is, is to like, just go door knocking, have people understand what Clinnect is, why they want to sign up and then just literally help them sign up.[00:25:02] Just walk them through the process, which isn't a hard process, but it's, it's um, I think at first to get those numbers, so we talk about chicken and egg. We need one of those. We need the, we need one of those to tip. And I think to get us to the tipping point, we need to do a very tailored marketing approach where we go door to door[00:25:28] Jonathan: When you say one of those, you mean that like the primary care providers[00:25:31] Angela: or the specialist we[00:25:32] Jonathan: I th but I think it's, I think it's gotta be the specialist. Like what, like, there's no reason for, uh, like there's no use to it. As a primary care, but there's no use to anyone if neither one neither side is on that, but there's less use for the primary care provider to sign up because they can't, they can't do anything.[00:25:50] Angela: Correct. That being said, we already have one specialty on, so they are there and we do have two more specialties. Queued. If anybody knows anything about healthcare is that July and August are like classically slow down[00:26:08] times.[00:26:09] Jonathan: for everything like everyone's on vacation. No, one's responding to emails.[00:26:14] Angela: So then we're battling that right now, too. So yeah, I think that's why that's keeping me up at night right now. Password resets and user numbers.[00:26:26] Jonathan: Nah.[00:26:27] Angela: Yeah.Outro[00:26:30] Thanks for listening to Fixing Faxes, building a digital health startup. I'm Angela Hapke. My cohost is Jonathan Bowers music by Andrew Codeman. Follow us on Twitter @fixingfaxes. You can find us wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And please do us a favor and tell a friend. Thanks for listening.[00:26:47] Jonathan: It's it's almost as if you haven't, uh, been gone for three weeks, not practicing this.

covid-19 god starting technology star wars solo western night healthcare startups wars honestly mandalorian gallery rogue one passwords digital health mmm lastpass emr x wing kamloops 1password woman ceo queued what keeps you up jonathan so jonathan yeah angela you jonathan that angela it andrew codeman

Privacy by Design w/ Chris Foster

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 1, 2020 34:02

Show NotesWe've deliberately chosen to design privacy into Clinnect. This means using cryptography to ensure that only the intended recipient is able to view patient data. In fact, as builders of the software, we can't even see the patient data.For the curious, Chris suggests these articles to better understand cryptography: Crypto101 is a great book for learning cryptography basics. It's very long but thorough and free: https://www.crypto101.io/ The API we use to do this securely in the browser is the WebCrypto API: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_Crypto_API Two of the models we based our cryptography on were the Firefox sync model and the Lastpass model. Breakdown on those here: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2018/11/firefox-sync-privacy/ & https://enterprise.lastpass.com/wp-content/uploads/LastPass-Technical-Whitepaper-3.pdf We highly recommend using a password manager like Last Pass to keep yourself safer on the internet. Many are free, including Last Pass.Fact CheckThe LifeLabs hack was one of the largest data breaches in Canadian history. An estimated 15 million Canadians were affected.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comChris Foster - @chrisfosterelli - https://fosterelli.co/CreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)TranscriptJonathan: Check this out, Chris. So we've got these new pop filters. This is it. Without the pop filter, Peter Piper picked a Peck of pickled peppers.[00:00:09] And with the pop filter, Peter Piper picked a Peck of pickled peppers[00:00:15] Chris: So much better.[00:00:16] Angela: Isn't[00:00:17] Jonathan: then better.[00:00:17] Chris: I feel a little bit like the black sheep, because I am I'm that person who joins the podcasts and does not have a high quality bike. And I know as a listener, whenever I hear that, I'm like, Ugggg![00:00:30] Angela: Do you? Because I'm more like, Oh, thank God. Not everybody has everything in their house.[00:00:38] Chris: I usually just skip podcasts that, that are guests like me.[00:00:45]Introduction[00:00:45][00:00:45] Jonathan: Hi, I'm Jonathan Bowers[00:00:49]Angela: and I'm Angela Hapke. And I went camping for the first time with my family. Last weekend, we bought a[00:00:57] new tent trailer[00:00:58] Jonathan: the first time ever.[00:01:00] Angela: with all four of us. Yup.[00:01:02] Jonathan: Oh, wow.[00:01:03] Angela: Yeah.[00:01:04] Jonathan: anyone get any sleep?[00:01:05]Angela: So we bought it a popup trailer and Brad and Alex were on one side and Nora and I were on the other side. One half of the trailer got sleep. It was not my side.[00:01:19] Oh, I promptly when I got home ordered memory foam, like two inch memory foam toppers for the mattresses, because both Nora and I were like, Oh, heck no, we're not doing that.[00:01:34] we joke that our children are like drunk octopuses, trying to search for their keys when they're sleeping at night. Like that's a bit how Nora is. So yeah, it was a lot of like toe kicks to the kidneys and moving around and yeah, it was tough.[00:01:51] Today we have a guest, uh, the chief technology officer at Two Story Robot. Can you introduce yourself?[00:01:58]Chris: Hi, my name is Chris Foster. I'm like you said, the chief technology officer at Two Story Robot. I have been building web applications for about a decade now. Um, and before that I was into computer security, pretty heavily. I have a degree in computer science with a specialization in software engineering, as well as a graduate degree in computational neuroscience and artificial intelligence.[00:02:29] Angela: Oh my goodness. A lot of those words didn't make sense to me, but that's[00:02:36] okay.[00:02:36] Jonathan: you said, computational neuroscience, that's an obscure term that. So what, what does that mean?[00:02:41] Chris: yeah. We use machine learning models to better understand how language is processed in the human brain.[00:02:47]Jonathan: How did you do that?[00:02:48]Chris: We put some people in a very uncomfortable machine. It's called a EEG machine. So. They put a whole bunch of goop in your hair and sensors. And then we make you sit in a dark room or of what feels like a very long time staring at symbols on a screen, as you learn to map those to English words. Uh, we tried to replicate sort of replicate an experiment that was done with a much, much more expensive machine.[00:03:12] And then we showed that you don't necessarily need the $1.5 Million machine and said, you can do it. Uh, with something that's more in the range of $60,000. We did it while trying to learn kind of a language that we made up, which was something that was new too.[00:03:25]Jonathan: That's cool.[00:03:25] Angela: That is cool.[00:03:27] Chris: it was a fun project, but yeah, I definitely nothing like graduate studies to also make you feel like you have no idea about computational neuroscience, more questions than answers at the end of it, it often feels like.[00:03:39]Jonathan: You've expanded your knowledge a bit, but you've also expanded that surface area of things, you know, that you have no idea about. Um, which I like, I like that feeling. I like knowing that there's all this world of things that I don't know, uh, it feels like a better place than not knowing that that stuff exists.[00:03:55]Um, It's it's something that I talk. So I talk about this with the team every now and again. And I like my goal for our team is not to not to expand the circle of knowledge of things they know. It's to expand the circle of knowledge of things they know they don't know because that stuff you can go and learn.[00:04:18]you don't need to know all that, all that stuff. You need to know that it exists and that you can go and find it.[00:04:23] Angela: I think you're right. And I think that's probably a good segue into what we're talking about today. Ah,[00:04:29] Chris: It is because computer science follows a very similar learning curve. I think.[00:04:33]Angela: As the CEO of a digital health company. I know we're about to find out about how much I know about the topic of encryption and how it is more about knowing what you don't know and either finding the right people, uh, to do it or to understand what you don't have an idea of what you don't know.[00:04:58]What is Encryption as a High Level?[00:04:58] Jonathan: Yeah. And so, yeah, that's the topic of today is, well, we wanted to talk about encryption, um, because clinic is, um, what's called end to end encrypted. Which practically means that only the person who sent a referral and the person who receives a referral can read or see any of that data.[00:05:20] No one else can see that including, including us as the builders of this software. Chris, how would you characterize that encryption is discussed in terms of products and things that exist now?[00:05:30]Chris: encryption comes up all the time. And maybe from, from a layman's perspective, it can often seem like encryption is encryption, which I guess it's technically true, but how you're using that encryption really matters for how private your data is. Um, and it kind of fits into three broad categories.[00:05:52] Uh, the first type of category is the most popular of encryption. The, when that, um, whether knowing it or not, you use this all the time in your day to day life, which is communication encryption. So this isn't encrypting data between two end points that are talking to each other. So a good example of this is when you open up the Facebook application and Facebook goes and fetches your profile data, or your timeline data from facebook.com.[00:06:17] It's doing that in an encrypted way. So your internet service provider, for example, can't read that data, but Facebook can. So although there's encryption in place, there, it's not the same as other types of encryption that might protect your data from everyone, even including Facebook.[00:06:32]The second type is encryption at rest. So this is maybe if you have a file on your computer and you've decided to encrypt that file and you've used a password to do that. Or if you're using something like Mac's operating system's encryption feature. No one can actually open up your Mac and read all the data on it without your password. So if you're using that feature, then that's kind of encryption at rest while your Mac is actually unlocked, someone could certainly come over to your computer and access all the data.[00:07:00] But if you had your computer turned off and someone stole it and ran away, they wouldn't be able to read any of the data off the hard drive. So that's another way that is Christian has often used. And then the third way, which is. Probably the most privacy preserving, but is less common is end to end encryption.[00:07:19] An end to end encryption is similar to what, and you're using a tool like Facebook, but it's even if Facebook, as the person passing the data around, even if they couldn't read it. So for example, when you use Facebook messenger and I send a message to someone else on Facebook messenger, That person is receiving it.[00:07:38] And both of us are encrypted when we talk to Facebook, but Facebook in theory could read those messages. Um, Facebook does actually have an end to end encryption model. And if you were to turn that on, what it's then doing is the encryption is directly between me and whoever I'm messaging. So if I'm messaging Jonathan, that would mean that even Facebook can't read those messages because the encryption is directly between us and it's a little bit harder to set up and certainly more complicated and it makes building an application.[00:08:05] Have a lot of interesting limitations and technical challenges and all sorts of feature problems that can come up when you, as the company, can't read the data, but that's what we've tried to do with Clinnect to protect patient privacy. Um, just because it's so important, right? So that's what we've done here is when someone sends a referral to someone else, us a Two Story Robot or Clinnect, we can't actually see that data. It's directly encrypted between the members of the sending medical practice and the members of the receiving medical practice[00:08:35] like to be secure, like even, even like the baseline requirement is that the internet service providers should not be able to read your data. That is like the bare minimum for building a web application today.[00:08:45] But being end to end encrypted is definitely being a lot more forward thinking.[00:08:49]Jonathan: I have some questions. I don't think they're relevant.[00:08:51] Chris: I love irrelevant questions.[00:08:53]Jonathan: I was thinking like, are there, are there still cases of, of applications or services that aren't even hitting that baseline requirement[00:09:07] Chris: I mean, they're not, they're not right. Like the, the phone line provider could in theory, uh, re read your data. Um, I mean, there's, there's some advantages in some ways in that the phone line provider, isn't, isn't storing that fax but ultimately you have to trust them when they say they're not doing that.[00:09:23]Jonathan: one of the things about encryption is that it does it, it adds that layer of trust, or maybe, maybe the right word is you don't have to trust, right? Like a fax machine. You have to trust that the carrier, that telephone company is acting in a way that is not, um, privacy invading.[00:09:41] encrypting that communication. So it doesn't matter. Like we don't have to trust, like the fax operation could be run by bad person company.[00:09:50] Um, and they, they, you know, they can record all they want. It doesn't matter because they, they wouldn't be able to read it.[00:09:56] Angela: exactly, that's it? Yeah. And I think too, um, what we're also forgetting around the fax machine privacy issue is that. You could send it to the wrong fax number because there's no verification on the other end that they are who they are.[00:10:16] Right. So it could end up on any fax machine.[00:10:19] Chris: Yeah, I think that that's also has an interesting corollary to, to building a web application cause the internet works a fair bit different than the phone network and it say we had built this without that end to end encryption. There's lots of interesting problems that can happen. Um, now again, I've said that kinda like encryption to the server is the bare minimum, but it also becomes like even more important when you start talking about the internet, because with the phone line connection, if I was to call you Angela, it's probably pretty likely that like how that call is going to get routed is controlled by the phone network.[00:10:56] And it's pretty likely going to go to you where the internet doesn't quite work that way. Um, the way the internet works is through the system called BGP. Basically an ISP or an internet service provider or someone who's a big player on the internet. We'll sort of just say, Hey, I'm handling the traffic for all of these addresses.[00:11:14] And it's very brittle. There's actually been mistakes in the past where, uh, say something, I don't remember the exact countries, but, um, say someone, an internet service provider in Brazil has said, I own all of the google.com IPS. And then everyone starts sending all of their traffic to Brazil, even if maybe they were already right beside, at Google data center.[00:11:35] So it's also difficult to ensure how our traffic is even routed through the internet, which is why, like, of course there's people monitoring this and if you behave, you're, you're a bad player they're going to boot you out. But ultimately it's important to have that even that baseline encryption and end to encryption on top of that is even more helpful.[00:11:54] Um, Just because the internet works so much differently.[00:11:57]Jonathan: we've deliberately chosen to build Clinnect in an end to end encrypted way, which is kind of the, the most encrypted, the most encrypted way we could, we could build it or is there another, like, is there an even more encrypted way that we could build this?[00:12:13]Chris: I think everything is going to be a compromise. There's probably some things we could do that would have been more encrypted, but anything you do is going to come with a little bit of a sacrifice to user usability, right? So one, one thing we've done is when you send a referral, anyone at the receiving practice can access it.[00:12:34] That is the doctor or their MOAs as well. We could have made it more encrypted by sending it specifically to the doctor,[00:12:43] um, and never allowing you have to be sent to anyone else in the future ever again, and encoding it directly for the doctor's keys. If we had done that, that would arguably be more more encrypted because you're reducing the number of people with access to the unencrypted version of that file.[00:13:01] But that would obviously come with very large considerations for the user experience. So I think ultimately with these things, it's going to be a trade off between the level of thoroughness in your encryption architecture and the user experience. And I feel like for something as important as patient data, we still have to make some product compromises, but we're right on the balance and the sweet spot where it's an effective and a usable product, and also highly secure compared to alternate approaches.[00:13:31]An Analogy to Boxes and Locks[00:13:31]Jonathan: when thinking about it from the user's perspective, like we always have to. We have to explain this to them sometimes and help, help guide them to why this is better, why this does protect them, them like as, as, um, practitioners and patient data. Uh, and so we've, tried to come up with analogies to explain this.[00:13:55] So. Um, in explaining this in the past. So Chris kind of explained what we did in a very technical diagram. I tried to bake that into a different analogy and then Angela took that and also tried to explain that to some potential customers. So I'm curious to hear that replayed back to us.[00:14:14] Angela: Oh, my, okay. So what I tell people and let's go back to the primary care provider is putting together a package. This package is a referral. So this referral package contains like every thing about this person. So highly sensitive patient data. What I say is that when you take this package it gets put into a box that is locked. But depending on how many people can open it on the[00:14:52]Editors Note[00:14:52] Jonathan: Okay, Jonathan here. Uh, I'm editing this and listening to Angela and myself, trying to explain encryption through an analogy and we go on and on and on about boxes and locks and putting boxes inside of boxes with locks inside of locks and boxes and boxes and locks and boxes and locks. And it's very confusing.[00:15:13] Um, very hard to listen to it. So I'm going to save you all the trouble and we're just going to skip all that part and just suffice to say, we butchered an analogy for trying to explain encryption. It was terrible.[00:15:27]Back to the program[00:15:27] the receiving team gave us. And so that lock gets put on that box and that whole box gets put in another box with the key, uh, uh, damn.[00:15:39] Chris: built this and I'm not, I'm not following.[00:15:41]It's a good analogy. And you're, you're not. Wrong per se, but it's a struggle to use an analogy to explain the system because anytime you try and be even remotely, correct, the analogy starts to break down to the point that you might as well just teach someone cryptography.[00:16:03] Angela: don't[00:16:03] Jonathan: Okay. How does it work, Chris? What's this[00:16:08] Angela: And you really don't need to use.[00:16:10] Chris: Can I abandon the[00:16:12] Angela: Yes, please. Please do this, the analogy. So this all started from me saying to Jonathan, like the cryptography that we've built into Clinnect is sits in the background. As a user, you have no idea actually how secure it is, but it's privacy by design.[00:16:32] This is what we've done with Clinnect. And, um, but I wanted to showcase that I wanted a really easy analogy. Apparently there isn't one a really easy and okay. Okay. Well then, then go ahead. Yeah. I wanted to share with users, so they were like, Oh yeah. Cool.[00:16:50] Chris: There is an easy analogy. I think that the thing is, is you have to trade off being correct. Um, both of you, I think, are trying to be like, actually correct in the explanation, in which case you might as well just talk about the cryptography. I think if you don't mind quite a bit of oversimplification an analogy is actually not too bad.[00:17:11]Jonathan: So what's the oversimplified version of[00:17:14] Angela: Yes, please do.[00:17:15] Chris: The oversimplified version is I would say, imagine a lock that has two keys and one key can lock the lock and the other key can unlock the lock. Each key only turns one way, so you can only lock or unlock it. So the key that unlocks it is your secret key. It's the one that you just want to hold on. You don't want to give that to anyone else, but the one that locks it, that's fine because all it does is lock it. You can make as many copies of that, of, of that as you want and send that to as many people as you want. So when you send a referral. What you're doing is you're asking the Clinnect server, you're saying, Hey, can I have the public key and Clinnect server saying yep. Here you go. Here's what copy of that? And you use that to put all the referral data in this box and do you lock it, but you can't unlock it and neither can we, and then you give the box to us. And then when the receiving specialist logs in. We give them the box and they have the key that can unlock, which is derived from their password.[00:18:20] And we don't know their password. So we don't know the secret key. But they have that secret key and they can use that to unlock the box. That's the core. Now of course, the parts where that's over simplifying is there's actually multiple people that can unlock this box. Everyone at the receiving specialist can unlock it.[00:18:39] So that includes their MOAs, um, and that's, that's where things start to become complicated because what we actually do is we give keys to each user and then keys that represent the practice. And then we take the practices secret key. And we use each user's public key to then encrypt it for them so that they have their own kind of double wrapped copy of the practices key.[00:19:02] But now you can see that now it's starting to get complicated and you can see where it breaks down. So you don't that you, that's why you have to trade off the accuracy. We could talk about asymmetric versus symmetric encryption. And, and if you could explain it, um, it's actually not too hard, but maybe maybe a bit longer than, than 30 minutes.[00:19:20] Um, But it's honestly not quite that daunting, but I think, yeah, if you, if you want something for, for a nontechnical audience that is okay with a little bit of inaccuracy and simplification, then I like that analogy for it.[00:19:34] Angela: Okay, Chris, so people are going to be listening and then there, you're going to peak their interest. They're going to go. Huh, but this guy's talking about is really interesting. And maybe I do want to know a little bit more, where would you point someone who let's say is like me knows very little about this, but is really interested in learning a little bit more about it.[00:19:55] Chris: Google is a great resource. I think part of the, where the analogy breaks[00:20:00] Jonathan: it.[00:20:00] Angela: Just freaking Google it. God, I want to do something better that we, where we can like link in the show notes or[00:20:07] Chris: Oh, I can link in the show notes, but if you ask me offhand, I mean, I learned most of this a decade ago, so it's a little bit challenging to put yourself in the beginner's shoes, but I could find some resources. Um, yeah, I think part of it is that the analogy, the analogy, it skips the actual names of these things, right.[00:20:26] Which is asymmetric cryptography[00:20:29]Jonathan: it's it's hard to explain without explaining cryptography, how hard is it to implement? How hard is it to build this stuff?[00:20:38] Chris: It's simultaneously easier than you would expect and harder than it should be.[00:20:44] Angela: If that wasn't the classic Chris Foster answer, I don't know.[00:20:49] Jonathan: I'm going to sit firmly on the fence.[00:20:52] Chris: There's some parts, like the core concept of it feels quite simple when we approached it and we first started talking about the end to end encryption thought through some of the ideas and I thought, yeah, this, this feels pretty approachable. Um, but the devil's in the details with this thing, I think for sure.[00:21:07]it's easy in the sense that we've leaned on a lot of existing models. With cryptography the less you can do that looks like something new, the better. So the one rule of cryptography is kind of that you should never implement your own cryptography.[00:21:21]So we based this on a whole bunch of similar models, like the Firefox Sync architecture, as well as, um, Last Pass' security model. Basically anything we could find in existing systems that were established and have been around for years and had lots of people looking at them and were built by teams of experts.[00:21:38] We wanted to try and copy as much as we could from those architectures. Some of the complicated bits have been that, doing this in the browser was a little bit tricky. Some of the APIs are pretty new. We've been using what's called the web crypto APIs, um, which have just reached a stage where they are appropriate to be used, but they definitely differ quite a bit between each browser.[00:22:00] And it's pretty hard to get them to work for some things that you need in some situations. So, when we write out the whole plan feels very approachable, sensible. We're basically doing what everyone else has been doing. But then actually implementing it comes with lots of little gotchas that we had to work through. So. So I would say, yeah, I think like there's no other way to put it other than to say it is easy and hard.[00:22:24] Jonathan: I like that answer. I like that answer. what are some other reasons why we wanted to build end to end encryption into this product?[00:22:32]Angela: maybe I'll take you back to like when we were first talking about doing all of this, and I remember, I actually remember the day that I kind of dropped the bomb on you, Jonathan, where I said, I don't think I want Clinnect to see like anybody that works in Clinnect to see any of these actual referrals.[00:22:48] And I remember you kind of going. Oh, okay. That changes things, you know? There was a couple of different business reasons behind this. It seemed like the most appropriate way to handle patient data.[00:23:03] We don't need to see what's in those referrals. We don't want to see what's in those referrals. That is a hundred percent patient data that we should not be entitled to. Clinnect is a really small company right now.[00:23:16] I mean, there's only a few of us that work there. Uh, I trust everybody that works there. I think they're amazing. Um, what if Clinnect was to balloon into a team of hundred hundreds of people and I all of a sudden had an application where you could go in and see anybody's personal health data. That's not okay in my opinion at all.[00:23:41] It would've felt weird to add that in after the fact too. And I think a lot of the discussions that we had was, well, if this is the way that you want to do it, let's, let's build it right from the get, go that way, rather than trying to add that in later, which I think probably would have been a nightmare.[00:23:54] Chris: Borderline impossible.[00:23:56] Angela: Or borderline impossible. There you go. So glad we made that decision[00:24:02] We're a startup, we're a young company. We do not know where this company is going. We know who owns it right now, but what does it look like in 10 years? And would that have changed the direction that we went to?[00:24:15] If we had access to that data and to be honest from a social enterprise perspective, it is not the world that I want to get into with having access to personal health data and managing the risk around that.[00:24:31]Jonathan: We own it now. And what you're saying is that there's the potential that the Clinnect gets acquired and that acquirer could do something else with the data, even though our intention was, if we had an end to end encrypted it, like our intention was yet, we're not going to do anything nefarious with this data.[00:24:48] Um, but now we've protected against that from happening in the[00:24:51] Angela: in the future and I mean, that's not a protection for me or Clinnect. That's a protection for every user and every person that has their data going through us. It was a decision that I didn't make lightly that's for sure. But it also was something that it wasn't a hard decision to make either as soon as we kind of ran through a couple scenarios and I was like, Whoa, why, why are we even considering not doing this?[00:25:16] Chris: And also even as like technical lead, like I like that, like that feels a little bit of weight off my shoulders. Um, then knowing that, that we are creating this repository that is going to be such a massive target of personal data. Now I absolutely think, especially as we continue to grow, we should treat it as if it is personal data, put all of those safeguards in place, and operational policies and treat our security with the importance that we would as if we were holding patient data.[00:25:47] But it sure makes me feel a whole lot better knowing that, that we,[00:25:52] Angela: exactly. Yep.[00:25:53] Jonathan: And ultimately, like, what is the, what is the risk here? Like what is our exposure to, to somebody doing something bad? What's the worst that can be done?[00:26:03]Chris: if we're talking about absolute worst case scenario, is that someone could. Compromise our servers, or if there was a very malicious acquisition and replace the version of the application that comes out with one that has bad code in it, and it could wait for the user to enter their password and then start decrypting data and then push it somewhere else.[00:26:23] Un-encrypted that's a potential risk. It's. There's practical limits on that. So for example, you would only be able to compromise individual users and the rate at which you could extract data would be much slower than if you just had a giant database of say hundreds of gigs of private data. That's, that's just a database you can download that has all the private data where this must be a targeted attack against individual users.[00:26:46] Right. You have to set up a server to receive that data. And then you have to also store all of that data . So, so that is in theory, something that could happen, which is sometimes why end to end web applications kind of get some criticism, but is it a whole lot better than if we didn't have that stuff encrypted?[00:27:02] Absolutely. so I would say that there's still, there's maybe targeted attacks that could in theory be at risk, but. Again, that's why our responsibility should be to still treat the security of the application as if it was personal data. And I would say that certainly from a, hacker's perspective, I wouldn't say that that that's a, that's a small feat to pull off that sort of attack.[00:27:23] Um, it's definitely far more complex than, than some of the other than say, just like getting access to a database and downloading all of the data. Um, it's definitely quite a bit more complex, but.[00:27:35]Angela: when you talk about a targeted attack on Clinnect, it would be relatively unfruitful. Cause it would take a long time, whereas there's a lot of other low hanging fruit targets. And so even that alone, right. Is decreasing risk there too.[00:27:51] Jonathan: Yeah, we make, we make ourselves look less attractive than another[00:27:56] than another potential target. Like, I mean, and, and that, that has happened already in, in our world. Like the, the life LifeLabs was hacked and breached, and I don't know how many, how many patient records were exposed, but.[00:28:11] Angela: I can't remember. We can take a look and we'll put it in the show notes, um, link an article to it, but it was, it was a significant amount. I mean, I was one of the people that received, uh, a notification that. That my stuff had, had potentially been[00:28:31]Chris: ultimately nothing is a silver bullet, right? Um, I think also one of the other things is that cryptography is not a replacement for user education. Um, the users are certainly probably the more likely weak point, uh, would be someone attacking an individual user's machine or even trying to social engineer them.[00:28:49] Um, which is say, for example, calling them up and pretending to be Clinnect staff or emailing them and saying that they need their password. Um, those sorts of things that, that our user might fall for are probably the most likely risk[00:29:03] Angela: Yep. Yeah, a little PSA do not give your password over the phone to anybody[00:29:12] Jonathan: Ever ever[00:29:13] Angela: ever don't do it. People[00:29:17]Recommendations for building an End-to-End encrypted app[00:29:17]Jonathan: if someone wanted to build an end to end encrypted app, do you have any recommendations?[00:29:23]Chris: like we said, the core of it is pretty easy, but the hard bits are the hard bits. I think something that we already touched on, which is of course the first rule of cryptography is that make sure you, you feel confident in what you're doing and familiar and like, make sure you have some sort of expertise in these systems and don't ever create your own cryptography. Um, yeah, you want to, you want to always lean on, on what experts have done. So, so yeah, I would always say that like, if you are working with sensitive data and your goal is to build an end to end encrypted app and make sure that that you're not doing anything new.[00:30:03] Angela: I like that. I actually feel like you're demystifying. Um, the work that you're doing a little bit with the average, like. General population listening is I think we commonly think that you build everything from scratch, but that's not the case. And as you mentioned it's, and in this case, it shouldn't be the case.[00:30:25] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. There's absolutely some, some small adaptions. Like I said, that we've, we've kind of made like the Firefox Sync architecture or Last Pass are different products ultimately than Clinnect. So there's, there's some small adaptions, but ultimately, the architecture is basically really heavily leaning on what people have already done and then the encryption themselves, or the encryption itself, the act of actually encrypting the data.[00:30:47] Um, we wrote none of that code. That's all handled by the browsers through the web crypto API. So yeah, we, um, it's, it's not quite as simple, but in essence we say like, Hey encrypt this, and that's, that's the extent of what we've implemented for encryption. So the browsers handle all of that portion. Um, and if we had say implemented that ourselves, it just, it opens up so many doors for something potentially going wrong.[00:31:11] So, um, in some respect, it is, it is better to take the easier route.[00:31:17]Jonathan: A two story robot. We take the easy path.[00:31:23] Angela: It's all hard and simple at the same time.[00:31:27] Chris: and it's not the easy route in some respect, too, right? Like the easy route would be no end to end encryption that's easiest.[00:31:32] Angela: that's actually a really good point, Chris is that we could have done this , without any of this and law doesn't require us to do what we are doing. We are taking the extra, additional step and protecting patients and users. Been an interesting journey for me because I originally just thought, well, I just don't want to see any of it. And if we could build it like that, that would be great. And I[00:31:58] had no[00:31:59] Jonathan: an off the cuff[00:32:01] you just[00:32:02] Angela: off the cuff,[00:32:03] but it was a thought out decision, but it certainly wasn't thought out to the point of what does this mean from a development perspective at all?[00:32:13] I didn't know what I was getting our team into. So[00:32:15] Chris: Yeah, absolutely. That's and that's a fair point. The, uh, the non-encrypted end to end version of this application is a much smaller application. That is, would it have been much faster to put together? Um, but I mean, yeah, we, we also, we don't know of any other provider doing something like this for medical referrals.[00:32:34] So it's it's because patient privacy is so important that, that we wanted to ensure we took the time to think about the system and make sure we got it right. So.[00:32:42][00:32:42]Jonathan: taking the time to get things right. Uh, Chris, where can people find you and follow you? If they're interested in.[00:32:49] Chris: Um, I have a Twitter account and a blog with a mailing list. If you're interested in more technical details on stuff like cryptography or artificial intelligence, um, if you Google chrisfosterelli, it comes up with all of my profiles. Don't Google, just Chris Foster. I'm not the most popular Chris Foster, but.[00:33:07]Jonathan: how many more years until you're the most popular?[00:33:10] Chris: Oh, is that a goal? Do I have to commit to that?[00:33:13] Angela: Yeah, Yeah, you do.[00:33:14] Chris: Yeah. Decade 10 years.[00:33:17] OutroAngela: Thanks for listening to Fixing Faxes, building a digital health startup. I'm Angela Hapke and my cohost is Jonathan Bowers. Our guest today was Chris Foster. Our music is by Andrew Codeman. Follow us on Twitter @FixingFaxes. You can find us wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And please do us a favor and tell a friend. Thanks for listening.[00:33:41]Jonathan: I wonder, I wonder if the memory foam topper is like the pop filter[00:33:46] of camping.[00:33:47]Angela: Maybe takes that edge off[00:33:49]Chris: My camping tent barely has enough room to sit up. So I feel like I am the laptop mic of camping.

god ceo english google technology canadian healthcare brazil startups mac decade recommendations psa compromise breakdown api boxes apis locks ips high level peck firefox digital health analogy encryption eeg isp lastpass bgp credits produced moas peter piper privacy by design editor's note chris foster woman ceo chris yeah christ here chris so chris oh jonathan how jonathan so crypto101 jonathan yeah jonathan that angela it angela do andrew codeman

Multi-Level Cleaning Hiccup - Should You Clean with Multi-Level Cleaning Products?

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 28, 2020 9:11

Multi-level cleaning hiccup, what do you do when a client wants you to use iffy cleaning products? Automate your invoicing, dispatches, and client info updates with HousecallPro.com/Angela It's important for every house cleaner to know what they're using when they clean a client's home. Using unknown cleaning chemicals promoted by multi-level marketing can be risky business. Today we'll show you how to navigate these tricky situations. Today's #AskaHouseCleaner sponsors are Savvy Cleaner Training for professional house cleaners and maids. And Housecall Pro. #AngelaBrown #SavvyCleaner *** RATE THIS SHOW *** https://sotellus.com/r/savvy-cleaner *** RATE THIS PODCAST *** https://ratethispodcast.com/askahousecleaner *** FAST TRACK TO CLEANING SUCCESS *** https://SavvyCleaner.com/Calendar-of-Courses *** MOST REQUESTED LIST OF CLEANING STUFF I USE *** https://www.Amazon.com/shop/AngelaBrown ***FUNNY CLEANING SHIRTS – DAILY GIVEAWAY*** Enter to Win - https://funnycleaningshirts.com *** MORE VIDEOS ON THIS TOPIC *** Is Multi-Level Marketing A Scam? - The Dave Ramsey Show - https://youtu.be/m3YCpEKAmnE How to Spot a Pyramid Scheme - Stacie Bosley - TED-Ed - https://youtu.be/SBGfHk91Vrk The 5 Big Lies Of Multilevel Marketing - Dan Lok - https://youtu.be/IuoC1yfaWuk The Bitter Economics of MLM - Economics Explained - https://youtu.be/inPcztqj9RE I Joined An MLM To Earn Extra Money -- Here's What Actually Happened - The Financial Diet - https://youtu.be/Mw2ijFNd1HI *** GOOD KARMA RESOURCES FROM THIS EPISODE *** These good karma links connect you to Amazon.com and affiliated sites that offer products or services that relate to today’s show. When you click on the links and buy the items you pay the exact same prices or less than if you found the links on your own elsewhere. The difference is that we make a small commission here at the show for sharing these links with you. Becoming Bulletproof: Protect Yourself, Read People, Influence Situations, and Live Fearlessly - https://amzn.to/2VG9KDv S&T INC. 968601 Multi-Color 50 Pack Microfiber Cleaning Cloths, 50 Pack - https://amzn.to/2xL986o Smart Business, Stupid Business: What School Never Taught You - https://amzn.to/3etJnrG The Anti-Corruption Handbook: How to Protect Your Business in the Global Marketplace - https://amzn.to/2Y9r1GZ Disposable Filter Masks, Pack of 20 - https://amzn.to/3b4gAra *** CONNECT WITH ANGELA ON SOCIAL MEDIA *** LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/savvycleaner/ Facebook: https://Facebook.com/SavvyCleaner Twitter: https://Twitter.com/SavvyCleane Instagram: https://Instagram.com/SavvyCleaner Pinterest: https://Pinterest.com/SavvyCleaner *** GOT A QUESTION FOR A SHOW? *** Email it to Angela[at]AskaHouseCleaner.com Voice Mail: Click on the blue button at https://askahousecleaner.com *** FREE EBOOK – HOW TO START YOUR OWN HOUSE CLEANING COMPANY *** http://amzn.to/2xUAF3Z *** PROFESSIONAL HOUSE CLEANERS PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProfessionalHouseCleaners/ *** VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/VRBO.Airbnb.Cleaning/ *** LOOKING FOR WAY TO GET MORE CLEANING LEADS *** https://housecleaning360.com *** WHAT IS ASK A HOUSE CLEANER? *** Ask a House Cleaner is a daily show where you get to ask your house cleaning questions and we provide answers. Learn how to clean. How to start a cleaning business. Marketing and advertising tips for your cleaning service. How to find top quality house cleaners, housekeepers, and maids. Employee motivation tactics. Strategies to boost your cleaning clientele. And cleaning company expansion help. Our host, Angela Brown, ran and managed one of the largest independently owned cleaning companies in the Southeast for 25-years. She’s the CEO, and founder of Savvy Cleaner Training for House Cleaners and Maids. *** SPONSORSHIPS & BRANDS *** We do work with sponsors and brands. If you are interested in working with us and you have a product or service that is cohesive to the cleaning industry read this: https://savvycleaner.com/product-review *** THIS SHOW WAS SPONSORED BY *** SAVVY CLEANER - House Cleaner Training and Certification – https://savvycleaner.com MY CLEANING CONNECTION – Your hub for all things cleaning – https://mycleaningconnection.com SAVVY PERKS – Employee Benefits for Small Business Owners – https://savvyperks.com VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING – Cleaning tips and strategies for your short-term rental https://TurnoverCleaningTips.com *** VIDEO CREDITS *** VIDEO/AUDIO EDITING: Kristin O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/kristin-o POST PRODUCTION: Amber O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/amber-o HOST: Angela Brown https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/angela-brown PRODUCER: Savvy Cleaner https://savvycleaner.com

Design Sprints

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 25, 2020 26:13

Show NotesAt the beginning of the episode Jonathan talks about watching Hamilton, which was recently released on Disney+. Here is a link to the streaming service and the filmed version of the original broadway.This episode delves into the design sprint that Two Story Robot led Clinnect through, we talk about the ups and downs and how valuable it was. Check out the blog post about design sprints and the design sprint we did with Clinnect.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)TranscriptJonathan: Can you do this? I can't do it just a second. I can get it.[00:00:04] Angela: sounded like a drip.[00:00:09]Jonathan: Yeah. It's, I'm not very, I'm not very good at.[00:00:12]Intro[00:00:12] Hi, I'm Jonathan Bowers.[00:00:17] Angela: And I'm Angela Hapke and you're listening to Fixing Faxes.[00:00:21]Jonathan: And I watched Hamilton this[00:00:24] Angela: was it?[00:00:26] Jonathan: so good.[00:00:27] Angela: watched it yet.[00:00:28] Jonathan: so good. It's it's so we've read a little bit about shaming for people who don't like it. Um, which I think is a little unfair. I mean, I enjoyed it a lot cause I like, I liked the style of music and it's really neat to see that in a musical also, we would never go see Hamilton.[00:00:49] Like, there's just no opportunity for us to go to Chicago or New York or London,[00:00:53] Angela: And especially right now.[00:00:55] Jonathan: Yeah. So it was really cool to watch. We had to watch it over two nights. Um, just cause it's, it's quite long, it's like two hours and 40 minutes. Um, but I didn't know. I didn't know that it was pretty much all rap and R and B and um, yeah, like it was really,[00:01:09] it was really cool.[00:01:10] Angela: well, I didn't know that either Brad will love it. I'm[00:01:14] Jonathan: It's so great. It's I really enjoyed it. It's very fast. It's hard to follow in ways because it's one it's like, it's just very quick. So you gotta, like, you have to be paying attention and it's a lot of American history, which I'm not, I don't, I don't know. I don't have any of the background knowledge for anyways[00:01:32] um, but it was still, it was, it was really cool. I really, I really enjoyed it.[00:01:35] Angela: Okay. I'm definitely going to check it out.[00:01:37]Jonathan: one of the YouTube videos I watched said that if, if it was paced the same as a, a regular Broadway musical, it would have taken six hours because of how many words they cram into two hours and 40 minutes.[00:01:51] Yeah. It's very[00:01:53] Angela: Wow.[00:01:54] That's very cool.[00:01:55]We Launched The Podcast[00:01:55] Jonathan: We launched the podcast too, that has come out. Um, I've listened to it. I've listened to it a bunch of times. Cause I edited it edited. I listened to it a bunch of times because I edited it and then I listened to it when it came out and I've since listened to episode five, which we recorded last week with our new mics.[00:02:16] And I hate, I hate the first four episodes. I don't like that. Uh, I don't like the way they[00:02:22] Angela: of course not. Well, of course not,[00:02:23] Jonathan: but we have four, I think four five star reviews. Yeah. There's well, one from your husband.[00:02:32] Angela: I was like beyond my husband.[00:02:34] Jonathan: Yeah, I think there's, I think there's some other ones, because if I look at the average yeah, we've got an average of four stars and then that one, one star review that they didn't leave.[00:02:45] Yeah. They didn't leave a comment, your husbands and then some other five star reviews. Um, but have you heard any, have you got any, any feedback from people.[00:02:51] Angela: Um, yeah, so I, I. Put it on my Facebook, like, just like, Hey, we're we're doing this. Wow. I, so heartwarmed by everybody. And people I haven't talked to in years, like sometimes decades that, um, have gone, like have saw the post gone and listened to it and then come back to the post to write me something.[00:03:19] Jonathan: That's[00:03:19] Angela: so lovely and[00:03:22] Jonathan: creeping on your Facebook a little bit. I was a little jealous of how many people were commenting on your, on your post about it. Cause no, one's no, one's commented on mine at all. Uh, that's fine.[00:03:34] Angela: it is like, honestly, there's a lot of my mom's friends that are going.[00:03:38] Jonathan: Oh,[00:03:41] Angela: Yay. Thank you. Friends of mum.[00:03:44] Jonathan: that's great. Everyone's everyone's dream is for their, uh, for their friend's daughter to become a podcast host. I think[00:03:52] Angela: Yeah, right.[00:03:53] Jonathan: it's just a proud, just a moment of pride. That's so great. I love it.[00:03:57] Angela: It's been really cool. And then like just the engagement factor around that has been really, really fun. Um, so it's, I mean, mostly the people that are listening, um, as of today are really just friends and family.[00:04:10] Jonathan: Yeah. It's not a lot of, not a huge audience at the[00:04:13] moment. Um,[00:04:15] Angela: so, thank you. If you're listening to this and you've made it to episode, whatever this is six[00:04:20] Jonathan: Episode six, if you're just joining us though now, because he couldn't deal with the poor audio quality. Uh, we get it.[00:04:30] Angela: I'm glad you rejoined us. Ah, yes. So we we've launched the podcast. We've got some reviews, some listens more, probably more downloads than I thought we would have.[00:04:43] Jonathan: Um,[00:04:45] Angela: Or did you, or[00:04:46] Jonathan: I was kind of hoping for a bit more. We have a, I went in this morning, we have a hundred total downloads across both the team, the teaser, and the first episode, I think there's, uh, like 30 or 40 downloads for episode two. And, um, yes, 60 or 70 downloads for the teaser. Um, but it's, it's interesting.[00:05:04] The pattern is different. The, the pattern is more stable for episode two, whereas a big spike on day one for the, for the teaser, and then it quickly, quickly dropped off. So, but it's only been out a couple of days, so we'll see. We'll see what today[00:05:18] Angela: And it's so much easier to listen to a three minute a teaser than it is to commit to a half an hour.[00:05:24]Design SprintsJonathan: uh, so we were thinking about talking today about, um, some design stuff.[00:05:29]Angela: before we started working with you, I had no idea what the design sprint was and I think that's, uh, it's super fun thing that we did. And I think we should talk about what that was and how we did it and why maybe what it was like from your perspective, my perspective and things like that.[00:05:51]do you want to talk about what the design sprint is to get us started?[00:05:57] Jonathan: Yeah. So a design well a sprint. There's this, there's this term that comes from agile product development and agile methods in, uh, software, but also other aspects of, of building things and this idea of a sprint. And it's this like short time window, sometimes two weeks, sometimes a week, sometimes a month.[00:06:19] It sort of depends on the project where you focus on a thing. And I don't love the term sprint. I think it, I think it connotes this idea that you are like constantly running the entire time. And then in, in the agile world, you sort of divide up your, your iteration cycles into sprints And so sprint one for focus on essence sprint two, we're focused on this and I've talked with people who kind of get the wrong idea and they think like, Oh, like, why isn't everyone just sprinting the entire time? All the time and I think, well, that's not sustainable. You can't, you can't, sprint every single day.[00:06:54]even sprinters, don't train by sprinting all the time.[00:06:56] Angela: exactly. Yeah, no, you're[00:06:58] Jonathan: So, um, anyway, so it's, it's a way of dividing up time. Um, and you kind of call it a sprint, but it's meant to be really focused on. You know, one thing or if there's a goal in mind. And so a design sprint, which I do like the term sprint for a design sprint, because it is it's short.[00:07:16]Um, it's a, it's a predefined time window. We don't do it like over and over and over again. We do one of them, maybe two of them. So our, our design sprint is. Basically three mornings. So usually Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday morning. It's very, very intense. It's very structured. We have a script that we follow and it leads us through a bunch of exercises. Um, some of which is just to like get the creative juices flowing. So we've got some sketching exercises that we do. Um, this fun thing called crazy eights, where you take a piece of paper and fold it in[00:07:53] Angela: I remember that.[00:07:54] Jonathan: Until you get eight pages and then every minute you have to draw something new on each one of those panels. Um, we don't share that stuff, but it's, uh, it's just to like get the creative juices flowing, but the goal is to, um, bring together, you know, the I'm the product expert. So yourself, um, the people that would be responsible for building, building the product, uh, like, uh, our team on Two Story Robot and it cramp them in together into this quote unquote room. Cause we don't do it in a room. We do it remotely and forces, through very short time windows, to like be creative and come up with things. And it's a really good way of getting information exchange happening, back and forth. Um, so we, we can quickly learn a lot about the domain in three days, we've become, um, we don't, we don't become like your level of understanding at it, but we get really close.[00:08:49] And then as an. And as an output to this entire process, as we collect collaboratively design, a bunch of features and screens that we think are the most priority, highest priority things to work on. Um, and then, and then at the end, we have a design that we can kind of start implementing with, which is, which is really cool.[00:09:07] Angela: From a Clinnect perspective. Um, when we started out with the design sprint, um, what we had was simply an idea. We knew the features that we wanted to add in, but we had no idea what this would, this product would look like. Um, Jackie and I had kind of sketched out some ideas cause we're super visual.[00:09:29] The both of us, um, just to kind of get on paper, what we thought we might want to see. And then we headed into this design sprint, which I knew nothing about. I w uh, I was like, okay. Yeah. And I think you sent me an email and you're like, Hey, do you want to try this? I'm like, sure. Let's, let's try this. And it was like, you know, three full mornings.[00:09:52] And, and so from what I would say is from where we were on the Monday at say eight or nine o'clock to where we got by end of day, Wednesday was mindblowing. The amount of work that we were able to push out in that sprint and get our heads around was unreal. It was super high value from our perspective.[00:10:21] So that was really, really cool.[00:10:24] Jonathan: Yeah, we've had, we've had that feedback, uh, cause we've run them a few times now and the feedback has always been yeah um, surprise at the end of how, how much, how much value came out of it and just how much understanding and how much tangible, like tangible design came out of it. I mean, it doesn't come out with fully fleshed out really high quality designs they're, they're pretty rough, but the, the, um, like they're really good bones on the skeleton, and then we can, then we can take that and start adding, adding all the flesh to it and it's um, but it's yeah, it's in three days, um, a lot gets done[00:11:01] in three days.[00:11:02] Angela: So when coming into it in February, we had like ideas and little sketches and it was cute to nice. And then by the end, I was like, Oh my gosh, we have all of this, which helped us push for the next thing too.[00:11:16] Because we were able to do that so quickly. And then we're kind of a bit on a roll that I was like, okay, like, let's get this going. So that outside of just getting the tangible designs and things like that done, it also helped just fuel the, the builds for the, the product too, which I found super valuable also.[00:11:34] Jonathan: I mean, another thing that it helps do is it, it really ruthlessly prioritizes what needs to get done because you can't, you can't, he can't address everything in three mornings. So there's a bunch of things that we really want it to do. But, um, you need to focus on the things that are most important or have maybe the most uncertainty.[00:11:52] Angela: I think, and I think the other thing I wanted to mention too, is it is. It's exhausting. Like, I was really tired after all that. Love it. I mean, I also being like the quote unquote customer in this, um, my brain was tapped a lot, like, okay, Angela, what do you think about this? Does this make sense? That, and so it was making like really, really quick decisions, which for anybody.[00:12:19] Can be really exhausting. And so I know, I remember after the three days, it was really, really tiring, um, highly valuable, but it goes back to what you said about a sprint. Shouldn't be like, you know, it's not sustainable. And it was like, mentally, it wasn't sustainable for me at all.[00:12:37] Jonathan: It's exhausting. It's exhausting. There, it's a lot of demand on you as the, as the expert. Um, because we, you have to download a bunch of information. You have to think and respond quickly to questions because you kind of facing a squad of everyone else on the, on the sprint. I think there was six of[00:12:56] Angela: Yes, there was[00:12:57] Jonathan: Um, and so everyone has questions. You say something and it triggers thoughts in other people's minds. And so they have questions now. So you've got to respond to that. So there's a lot on you. Um, there's a lot on, uh, so myself and my Maja a facilitated it it's, it's really it's. It has to be a tag team in order to facilitate the thing.[00:13:15]Um, cause there's a lot of this, a lot of stuff happening all at once. One of us is writing notes. One of us is sort of leading and facilitating the discussion and leading through some of the exercises. We, you know, it's a bit of a production too, is we've got music that we're playing and,[00:13:28]Angela: Oh my goodness. The music.[00:13:30]There was so many, there was so much commentary on the music. So Jonathan decided he was going to be the DJ. I don't know. And, uh, there was, you got so much flack for the, for the music that you were choosing.[00:13:44] I think it was mostly from Chris and I, but.[00:13:46] Jonathan: Yeah, we have some playlists that we use and I think one of them doesn't resonate very well with, uh, with everyone.[00:13:53] Angela: I was one of those people. It didn't resonate. Well,[00:13:55] Jonathan: It's it, but interestingly, so it's, that process has spurred me to, um, change, the experience I'm trying to create in all of my Zoom calls now. So having, having facilitated a few, a few design sprints, um, and getting some really good feedback about the experience, obviously I'm not going to put that much energy into , every zoom call that I'm on, but I've got a new camera now.[00:14:18] I've got a good sound. I've got to figure it out how I can, how I can quickly add music to the call. Um, so, um, I'm not a DJ by any means. No, I just like go hit, play on Spotify, but sometimes I can, I can find a song that actually reflects the meeting well, and then I play it. I play it out. I play us out and I've gotten some good feedback on that.[00:14:38]Uh, it's been fun.[00:14:40] Angela: Is that going to be like a job in the future[00:14:42] Jonathan: I think it could be a job now, I think.[00:14:45] Angela: But yeah, what I mean, I guess future being now, because we're all can, you know, meeting via virtually is that that becomes a new, a new skillset.[00:14:57] Jonathan: Yeah, at our all hands meetings, we have like a question that we ask. And it's just a fun question to just think about and discuss and just create something else to talk about. Um, One of them was what, what's a thing you'd like to learn. And mine, I decided was improv. Yeah, because I mean, I had just finished watching a, that long format improv on Netflix, uh Middleditch and Schwartz, which I highly recommend. It's really funny. I've always enjoyed improv. And so I was reflecting a little bit on what the design sprint is and sort of running, running, engaging meetings.[00:15:34] And I was like, this is it's improv. Like, how can I, how can I be, how can I, how could I improve that? I could be an improvization person, an improv comedian, or[00:15:45] like an[00:15:45] Angela: improv artist.[00:15:47] Jonathan: An improv artist. Right. I could be an improv artist. I haven't taken any efforts to like go and do that because I don't have any time, but it's something that I think about a lot.[00:15:55] And I w I really wish there was a maybe like a podcast I could listen to, to like, help me become a better at improv.[00:16:04] Angela: I love it. So anyone listening that has suggestions on how Jonathan can become an improv artist, please message us.[00:16:15] Jonathan: I think it would be a cool skill to have. It would be great for interviews on the podcast for, yeah. Anyways, I I'm, I'm excited about the idea of it. I don't know what I'm going to find time to go and do it.[00:16:26] Angela: Oh my goodness. I love that.[00:16:30] Jonathan: the other thing that I wanted to like share about the design sprint process that we have is that it, it kind of only works remotely.[00:16:38] Angela: You know what I would agree at first I was very, and this is pre COVID, so we could have met in a room and thought nothing of it. And we all. Mostly, except for Maja who was in Poland at the time, we all actually worked in the same building. So it would have been very easy to do this. And, and, um, the old school part of me that like, you know, has spent years in healthcare where meetings are, um, at first it was a bit like, Oh, No.[00:17:07] I want to, like, let's all get in a room and let's do this together. And you're like, no Angela, this is all virtual. And at first I was like a little bit disappointed, but then once we got into it, I probably didn't tell you that at the time. Um, but once we got into it, I totally got why we were doing it virtually and it made a lot of sense and it worked out really well.[00:17:34] Jonathan: Yeah, there's, there's so many things that you can do when you don't have the constraints of a physical world. Um, we use, we use some tools that allow us to very, very rapidly work on the same thing at the same time. And it gets really messy. Like we do this, um, we do this organization process where you're. You know, you're putting virtual sticky notes on a whiteboard and then somebody grabs it and moves it on you to somewhere else. And you're like, okay, whatever. And it's really fast. And so we can take seven minutes and, and categorize and organize a hundred sticky[00:18:08] notes and, and surface some meaning out of that.[00:18:11] Angela: And there was, um, there was a lot of getting used to that.[00:18:17] Jonathan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. The tool, the tool is we're used to the tool, um, others, uh, when people use it for the first time, uh, it, it, it can be a bit overwhelming and it[00:18:27] Angela: It was a bit. Yeah, but it was quick to learn. So it was overwhelming at first, but quick to learn, but I think it was more like my, my own control issues where I'm like, Nope, I put that sticky note there. Why is it moving? Somebody is moving it. And, but as soon as I kind of lost that need for understanding everything, because you can't during this design sprint, especially as a newcomer to it, as soon as I kind of lost that need to.[00:18:56] Understand and control, then it worked really well, but it was hard for me at first, but it didn't take, like, I like you adapt really quickly. I guess.[00:19:07] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a really messy. It's a very messy process. It makes people feel uncomfortable, especially. I think, I think you sort of hinted that you were a bit of a controlling, um,[00:19:22] Angela: Oh,[00:19:22] Jonathan: freak. You're just someone who likes to have control over things. And I remember thinking, I don't think she's going to like this very much.[00:19:32] Um, but like it's, it has to work this way. Like you can't control it because it's so it's, it's quite organic. Um, and it, it needs to be[00:19:39] Angela: And I think it's that, um, you know, we're talking a lot about this these days about leaning into uncomfortableness and that's where, um, beautiful, messy, creative things come from. And that's exactly what this design sprint was at first. It was, it was, it was a bit. Um, chaotic messy, but from it, if you just allow yourself to be uncomfortable and okay with being uncomfortable in that moment, you can create some really beautiful things.[00:20:06] And, um, that's where I think we were able to get. And I was probably one of the bigger barriers at the beginning to doing that. If I'm going to be perfectly honest with myself, but it was good.[00:20:20] Yeah.[00:20:20] highly recommended design sprint. Um, like I say, didn't know what it was, went into it unknowing definitely, you know, was, was pushing back at first and then so proud of what we came up with out of it.[00:20:35] Jonathan: Would you say it was fun,[00:20:36] Angela: Yeah. some of the best things are, you know, like they just. They tire you right out, but there's, there's fun. Um, yes, it was fun.[00:20:45] Jonathan: Yeah, I really enjoy them. They're they're so exhausting, but there's so much fun.[00:20:51]Angela: Um, so our software, uh, developer, Jackie, that, uh, works at Clinnect. Um, I remember at first she had a real hard time with it because she is the kind of person that loves things to be beautiful and nice and organized. And you can see it from, you know, she's a photographer and her pictures are gorgeous. Um, you should see your notebook.[00:21:16] It's.[00:21:16] Jonathan: Our notebook is[00:21:17] Angela: It's amazing.[00:21:19] And so then when you're doing this design sprint, like, and you talked about this, like the eight square, is that, what am I calling it? The crazy eights or something? Yep. Uh, Oh, Jackie hated that. I remember. She was so frustrated because you have to draw something in a minute and then you flip it over and draw something else in a minute and you kind of keep iterating on what you had drawn last and you get, you know, and it's, it's just, as Jonathan said, an exercise to start opening up your mind.[00:21:46] Well, I remember the grumbles so funny. Yeah. But because she's also this person who thinks about things and it's very particular. I also feel like she, once we kinda zoned in on what we were, what we were looking at a little bit more, she was able to take it to like a next level, because then she was able to focus in on those details and things like that.[00:22:10] And that's why it's so great to have a super diverse team when doing it and allow everybody to go through their grumbles and bumps and. It'll come out the other side better for it. . I had actually liked to do it again with something[00:22:28] Jonathan: What we had planned on, we have plans to do another one. Um, we had discussed it.[00:22:33] Angela: Oh, right. I forgot about it.[00:22:38] Jonathan: I don't remember what about, but we had identified something that we thought needed some additional,[00:22:43] Angela: Well, it's probably our premium features. No.[00:22:47] Jonathan: and I thought there was something else.[00:22:49]We are always looking for other opportunities to do design sprints, because they are so effective. They're really hard to describe though. Like they're almost impossible to describe to someone cause we say like, Oh, it's really, it's really weird.[00:23:02] It's really uncomfortable. It's very messy. And it's, it works really well.[00:23:07] Angela: Yeah. And people like myself are like, no, thank you. But I trusted you. That's actually, maybe the, maybe the piece that we haven't talked about is that trust piece is I trusted you to guide us through that. And I think you need to find a team that you, that you ha you have to have that trust there, or else that does not work.[00:23:28] I don't know. Have you ever had a, have you ever had a client where. It's like it went a little bit sideways.[00:23:35] Oh, that's nice. You must be so trustworthy. Everybody's just like, okay, Jonathan.[00:23:41] Jonathan: it's, it's always produced very good results and, and it's always, it's always. Kind of the same experience. So maybe that's just, we've like we have really great customers, um, which, which is true, but, uh, yeah, I don't know how much of it is because it just works or that we have customers that are sort of willing to work, willing to take that chance a little bit.[00:24:02] Angela: Probably a mix of all of it. Um, what we'll likely do in the show notes is link to maybe a little bit more information about design sprints.[00:24:12] Jonathan: Yeah, so we're doing, um, we're going to do a blog post on design sprints that this can, this can relate to, . Anyway, so, so hopefully we get to do another design sprint, um, on Clinnect, on whatever, whatever feature we think[00:24:24] Angela: Oh Lord.[00:24:25] Jonathan: What else is, what else is coming up? What else is next?[00:24:28] Angela: what's coming up. Uh,[00:24:32] Jonathan: Hopefully, well, hopefully, hopefully on the next recording, we're going to have Chris come in guest and explain to us how all this encryption stuff[00:24:44] Angela: Yes. Chris is wildly smart.[00:24:49] Jonathan: I'm very excited to hear you describe it as well, because I've, I've given you a, um, a metaphor or an analogy or a way of describing it, which you took, and I think you change to give to someone else. So I'm, I'm curious to hear all of it, all of it, and then do it in front of Chris for him to shake his head at and say no, no,[00:25:11] Angela: you have it all wrong. Yeah. That is a hundred percent what is going to happen? And I'm[00:25:16] Jonathan: Yeah. So you've been listening to Fixing Faxes, building a digital health startup. I'm Jonathan Bowers. My cohost is Angela Hapke. Music by Andrew Codeman. Follow us on Twitter @fixingfaxes. You can find us wherever you listen to podcasts. And please do us a favor. Tell a friend. Thanks for listening.[00:25:33]Camping with the Family[00:25:33] Angela: I'm taking my children camping in our new trailer for the first[00:25:38] Jonathan: You[00:25:39] Angela: weekend we bought a popup trailer, like[00:25:42] a, a tent trailer.[00:25:44] Jonathan: yeah.[00:25:45] Can you fit a family of four in that?[00:25:48] Angela: yes, apparently we bought a very large one. Yeah. I didn't have a clue. We really, we didn't know what we were doing when we bought it, but we bought it and our children are so happy.[00:26:01] Um, but they're so excited to take it. So we're going to take it four on Friday night for the first time. Wish us luck.[00:26:07] Jonathan: Uh, good luck.[00:26:11]

covid-19 love music american new york family spotify netflix friends chicago disney technology zoom dj healthcare startups broadway hamilton poland camping schwartz maja digital health design sprints middleditch woman ceo jonathan so jonathan yeah angela you jonathan that angela it andrew codeman

Financial Supports for Canadian Tech

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 18, 2020 26:11

Show NotesIn this episode we talk about different grants, contributions, tax incentives, and non-equity financing that there is available in Canada, specifically British Columbia and how it has helped our businesses. Here is a list of the grants/programs/incentives that we discuss and links to find out more information:NRC-IRAP - Industrial Research Assistance ProgramYouth employment grants through IRAP- Youth Employment, Venture for Canada, & New Ventures BC & Innovate BC.SRED (Scientific Research and Experimental Development) Tax program The company Angela mentions in the episode which specializes in SRED claims is Infinity SREDThere are many contests & competitions to apply for, if you are interested in more information we suggest starting to take a look at organizations that support the type of contest/competition you might be interested in.Incentives and contributions are great, we have used them along the way when they fit with work we were already undertaking. Just remember, it is better to focus on your product and less on distractions.Fact CheckJonathan mentions he is into a new marble league, if you are interested in checking it out it is in fact called Jelle's Marble Runs and can be found on YouTube.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)TranscriptJonathan: When you move, when you move the arm, it makes this like sound like, check this out. Like when you hear that, Oh, whoops.[00:00:10] Angela: Totally.[00:00:10] IntroductionYou are listening to Fixing Faxes, a podcast on the journey of building a digital health startup with your hosts, myself. Angela Hapke[00:00:22] Jonathan: And I'm Jonathan Bowers and we have been infatuated with Marble League.[00:00:30] Angela: I don't know what this[00:00:30]Jonathan: it is the best sports to watch while there is no sports. Although the risk sports now, I actually discovered it last year, but I didn't watch it until, COVID times.[00:00:38] Cause I didn't think Julie would enjoy it, but she really likes it. So imagine, imagine, imagine the Olympics, but if if the athletes were marbles. Yeah. So they, they like set up these, these courses and they put marbles at the top and the marbles just there's a machine that like releases them at the same time and the marbles go racing down the track.[00:01:00] Angela: Okay.[00:01:01]Jonathan: but, but they have teams, so they have teams that are named.[00:01:04] So I'm a fan of the O'Rangers. They're the orange team. And Julie likes the Misty maniacs because they look like, or know the minty. minty maniacs. They're minty colored. Cause she likes mint and it is phenomenally exciting to watch and you get very emotionally involved in it.[00:01:22] If you pick a team it's so much fun. Yeah. And there's like there's drama[00:01:29] Angela: I'm so confused about like, given, okay. So, Oh, there's so many questions I have. Where do I start? Given the race? Like the track or the course?[00:01:44] Does a team pick a certain marble.[00:01:48] Jonathan: Yes. So some of them, some of them are, like there's some, some events that require the whole team. Like there's, um, there's a, a push event. Like it's a strength event and they all raced down and they have to push this thing along the track. And the further it goes the higher your rankings are.[00:02:03] Um, but then there's ones that are just, Like you're competing with all the other teams. And so there's just one marble and all the marbles have names. Yeah, they do. my favorite team names is team Momo and I don't understand marbles at all, but there's a team called team Momo.[00:02:16] And one of the, the team captain, his name is Momo. but then there's Mo Momo. There's another marble on team. Momo. It's super fun.[00:02:25] Angela: so captains are real people?[00:02:29]Jonathan: No everyone is marbles. they're all marbles. The referees are marbles. There's a whole like stadium of marbles, I that cheer and they hold up a little marble signs[00:02:36]Angela: And what, sorry, what is it called again?[00:02:40]Jonathan: It's it's called, Jelle Marble League. I think it's the name of the person who created Jelle's Marble League.[00:02:51] Angela: I want to say that I'm going to go check this out, but I'm really not sure that I'm going to[00:02:55] go check this out. Do you think my daughter would think this is funny too?[00:02:59] Jonathan: I think so. I think if you watched it with her[00:03:01] Angela: Like there's no bad words in it.[00:03:03] Jonathan: no, it's[00:03:04] Angela: Okay.[00:03:05] Jonathan: Um, You need to pick a team though, like go from the opening ceremonies. There's an opening ceremonies. Pick it. Yeah. There's an opening ceremonies. Pick a team, like decide on just some random team and that's the team you're going to[00:03:17] Angela: You got to stick with[00:03:18] Jonathan: It's awesome. Like, there'll be a, there'll be a moment where your team like comes back from the, from the back of the pack and overtakes, and you're going to cheer. I promise you you're going to cheer. So I think, I didn't think Julie would think this was funny or fun or anything, but she really likes it.[00:03:32] And, uh, we've been watching John Oliver and he he's sponsored the whole season. Yeah. So it's, it's a marble league presented by the, uh, Yeah, John Oliver, and every, every episode, a $5,000 donation gets made to a food bank in the name of one of the marble teams that wins[00:03:54] Angela: I love it. That's actually quite cute.[00:03:56]Grants and Goverment Funding[00:03:56] Jonathan: Yeah. It's super fun. Love to see how we transition out of marbles into something.[00:04:00] Angela: Oh, Lordy.[00:04:01] Well, so today's episode might put you to sleep. We're going to talk about grants, not equity, funding, and taxes incentives.[00:04:13] Jonathan: I mean it's okay. So it's not that[00:04:19] bad.[00:04:19] Angela: It's not[00:04:20] Jonathan: it's super boring, but it's an interesting, it's an interesting thing to talk about because, Canada, and in some ways, particularly BC is a very, is a really great place to start a technology company because of all of the government incentives.[00:04:36] Angela: exactly it. There's a lot of people saying that, Canada is going to be like the up and coming leader in tech, a lot of it has to do with the way that we welcome the way that we welcome tech firms, but also the way that we welcome tech talent too. Probably more importantly.[00:04:57] So that's, that's kind of cool. And I know for us, there's a there's, there was a couple of grants that we got that. It really got us over some super important bumps along the road. Like the only reason that Jackie's with us is because of the grant that helped, right from the get go[00:05:16]Jonathan: Tell me a little bit about the, about the grants that you received.[00:05:19]Angela: Backing up to about a year and a half ago now I was in contact with our local IRAP representative. So IRAP is the Industrial Research Assistance Program put on by the national research council in Canada here. And they have different types of pots of money. And maybe actually you should probably talk about, you know, kind of like more of the IRAP grant program, but what we accessed through them was a youth unemployment grant.[00:05:51]They had some certain qualifications that they had, and it was to be, like a relative recent grad from a post secondary institution. Um, so, and, and youth, so under 30, and I'm sure there was a couple other things like unemployed or underemployed. And right at the same time that I was talking to Kevin about that, I was also talking to Jackie who was still in university at the time about her honors thesis that she was doing, which was aligning beautifully with what we were doing. And then I was, I was thinking at the time, man, if I could afford to hire this young woman coming out of university, that would be great.[00:06:33] And right at that, But I think within that week or the next week, Kevin informed me that there was some, some money available around youth employment. And I was like, Oh, well, I have the perfect person and, uh, that's how we hired Jackie right away.[00:06:47] And I think they covered. I want to say it was 80% of her salary for like six months. And that was the only way I could have hired somebody. And I don't know what I would do without her. So thank goodness.[00:06:58]Jonathan: I don't think they're called grants.[00:07:01] Angela: am I calling it something wrong?[00:07:03] Jonathan: Well, I think, no, I think they call it a contribution. So[00:07:09] Angela: You're right. They did use that language a lot. Sorry,[00:07:15] Jonathan: yeah. There's a lot of, there's a lot of restrictions on[00:07:18] Angela: what we can call it. Yes. Thank you for, for clarifying that for me,[00:07:24] Jonathan: a lot of these funding opportunities, these government funding opportunities exist to help de-risk some of these investments, particularly that small companies might be making, like, you know, making a hire[00:07:37] Angela: is such a huge cost to, um, startups.[00:07:42] Jonathan: Well, it's the biggest cost usually. Yeah.[00:07:45]Angela: and in our case It would have been a harder road. Had I not. we found a perfect fit and, we had more momentum with that hire than we would have otherwise.[00:07:57] Jonathan: Yeah.[00:07:59] Yeah. And it, it, I liked those ones. They also incentivize you to hire, you know, take that chance on someone relatively new. So it's, it's also de-risking that, right? Like, you don't really know if a new graduate is going to perform at the level that you need them to, or want them to, or be able to grow into that.[00:08:18] But if, if, if you're taking some of that risk off the table and, you know, giving them a little bit more opportunity to grow into that role, that's I get, like, I really liked the grants for that.[00:08:29] Um, just, you know, just let's de-risk this opportunity, hire someone, hire someone new, give them their first job. and I think that aligns really well with, our, our culture a bit too. Like both of us, both you as CRS and us as Two Story Robot.[00:08:46]Angela: because you're more familiar with IRAP's other programs. Did you want to talk about that at all? Or.[00:08:53]Jonathan: So the one, the one contribution that we receive from IRAP was a, was a small project. So it's under $50,000 and same, same kind of deal. Like they cover 80% of salary costs. but it allows us to explore a product that we wanted to build, with very little risk and we still had to, we still had to sell it to show the ability to actually pay for the entire project without the grant, or sorry, without the contribution. Uh, but once you got the contribution, then you're just kind of on the hook for the 20% plus whatever overhead you'd have to pay to keep that, you know, keep the lights on and then you get to you just kind of just get to explore this product and try and build this product, without, without a lot of that risk and it may not have ever happened.[00:09:41]downside is we, you know, we ended up. It just didn't work. We didn't have market traction for that, for that product.[00:09:47] Angela: but it allowed you to try.[00:09:49] Jonathan: yeah. And yeah, it allowed us to try and we learned a ton about just the process of building, building products, which led to getting hired Fresh Grade and some other things.[00:10:01] Angela: I think the, the whole idea of, de-risking projects to allow the creative freedom, to really explore and research and, and develop new things, is the idea behind it. But I know for us it's, it has been exactly that. We should say that also the, the process to accessing these types of contribution is a bit as a competitive process. There's limited, contribution availability out there and that, uh, like we've, we've asked a couple times for projects to be considered and we haven't been approved.[00:10:39]But anybody that I've spoken to that has access to IRAP money has said very, very good things about it and what it's done for them.[00:10:48] Jonathan: It's a great, it's a great program. It's, it's not overly burdensome to[00:10:53] Angela: No.[00:10:54] Jonathan: it's actually pretty, it's pretty easy. Um, we, when we had our agreement, it was right at the right during the time that, NRC got hacked,[00:11:05] um, and then we had to do everything by mail or by fax and it was, Oh, it was, it was, it was unpleasant. Yeah. I remember at one point yeah. Fax. I remember, I remember cause we didn't have a fax machine cause why,[00:11:23] Angela: Well, no. Why would you,[00:11:25] Jonathan: and it took me all day to figure out how to send a fax.[00:11:29]Angela: so you should have just gone to your local doctor office.[00:11:33]Jonathan: Yeah. I tried like our copier, the copier in the building had the ability to fax that didn't work. I w went up to Staples and said, Hey, can I fax this? And they said, uh, yeah that's going to cost you a hundred and some odd dollars. So why? Cause we charge by the page differently for a long distance fax.[00:11:52] And this is, that doesn't make any sense, like[00:11:54] Angela: Oh my goodness. Yeah.[00:11:57] Jonathan: so. Ridiculous. and then I came back and like explored all these things. But by the time it was all said and done, I had spent an entire, I wasted the whole day.[00:12:06] Angela: day[00:12:07] Oh, my word. Oh, my word,[00:12:10] Jonathan: machines[00:12:11] Angela: fax machines. No.[00:12:14] Jonathan: know. So silly.[00:12:16]Tax Credits[00:12:16]Angela: the other thing I did want to talk about was recently we received, like SR&ED tax credits. And so it's our, our first year, because 2019 was our first tax year where we were, we would have had activities that would have qualified for SR&ED. And I wanted to talk about that a little bit because.[00:12:38]number one, I was so impressed with the whole, uh, like I, we had a company that helped us out and they were amazing. I hardly did anything and yes, I paid them to, you know, a commission to do this, but, um, I didn't even think we would have qualified until a friend of mine she owns a tech company and Regina had told me about how[00:13:03] she also did the same thing and she's like, how's it just, just contact this guy and see if, if, uh, you know, maybe, maybe CRS has some activities for, for last year in blah, blah, blah. And it was amazing. He was just like, got me started and filled out the application for me, submitted everything for me. And I was just like, I w I was amazed at how slick the process was and, um, what a great tax incentive.[00:13:31] So SR&ED is Scientific Research and Exploration and Development[00:13:36] Jonathan: Scientific Research and Experimental Development.[00:13:39] Angela: development, um, tax credit. So anybody that's doing, um, Just new, new specifically. It can be in the resource sector too. Right. So like mining and, and, you know, like engineering and things like that. But also for tech back it's, it's building something new, uh, which what we're, which is exactly what we're doing and as a majority of our time and effort.[00:14:01] And so, yeah, we did that through them and I mean, you have to. So when you have contributions through IRAP and then tax credits top of it, it just like, I was, I'm just so impressed with how, um, how well that all came together for us. And a couple of them were surprises too. And I was like, Oh, thank goodness.[00:14:21] Cause this year was. tight year, so it continues to be a tight year. So very like, and these are the kinds of things that help us go through these first few years as a tech company. I mean, you're really not profitable until typically year three. And so it makes it, uh, it makes the tough times a little easier.[00:14:41] So that[00:14:42][00:14:42]Jonathan: so one of the really interesting things about SR&ED is there. They're trying to incentivize technical uncertainty. And they, they don't care if it succeeds or not. Like that's not, that's not on the metric. So you don't have to do something that is successful. You just have to try to solve a problem that has never been solved before.[00:15:00] Angela: I think this is why I'm so impressed with these types of, incentives. Let's just call them incentives and blanketed. That way is so much of what we're trying to do. Has a low success rate. Yet there's so many spinoff benefits of it. Even if it does fail, we learn things. We can try new things. Um, like all, all of those, all of those spinoffs are amazing.[00:15:29] And we have, um, Um, incentive programs and, and either government or non-governmental bodies that are supportive of that, that at least trying, even if you fail, we know that there's going to be learnings from it. We know X, Y, and Z will come out of it. Um, and they love that. I love that because, so I'm such a big proponent of systemic change and how hard systemic change is and can be that the failure rate is so high when it comes to trying new things and trying to change things, um, that it's. So it's so nice to feel a bit supported in a way that is meaningful around that, like financially[00:16:17] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah.[00:16:19] We did our own SR&ED claim in the first couple of years that don't rec I don't recommend doing that[00:16:24] at all. Um, But I, I did it. I sent it off and the, the person from Canada Revenue phoned me up and said, okay, you've done this kind of wrong in some spots.[00:16:36] Here's what you need to do. You need to fix this part here. And I need some other documentation here and send it to me whenever you can send it to me, send it to me here. And I sent it and they come back to me like, yep, this looks good. Um, I need you to change this piece here.[00:16:49] And I would change that and send it back. It took, it took a long time and it was really complicated and I was really frustrated with it because I waited too long. but they were so helpful[00:16:59] Angela: They were cold. They were collaborative.[00:17:01] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he wasn't like, he wasn't helping me game it in any way. He would just like pointed out the fact that I probably filled this out wrong and I needed to clarify that, but gave me the opportunity to fix it. And didn't say like, why you did this wrong? That[00:17:14] Angela: wrong. Send it back[00:17:15] without help.[00:17:17] Jonathan: just reject it.[00:17:17] They just, like, I recognize that there was a problem[00:17:20] Angela: That's so lovely. So my first SR&ED claim was done and I'm going to plug this guy cause I think he's amazing. His name's Daniah and it's Infinity SR&ED. And, um, so he helped my friend Kristy. So Kristy connected me to him and literally with, I think. I don't know, three phone calls, quite a few emails, like, you know, a few emails back and forth.[00:17:43] She got all the information that he needed. He made our first shred claim. And, and literally like then Daniah emails me and he's like, okay, Angela.[00:17:53] So they've processed it. Um, you're expecting this much back. And then he like connected like my accountant, um, directly. And I was like, it did honestly very little and then just like money in my bank account. The company's been counting on mine[00:18:12] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. And it comes as a check. Like it's not like a rebate on future tax[00:18:19] Angela: Yeah. This is not, uh, a tax. Yeah. Uh, re is that what it's called a rebate or whatever? Yeah. Like it's not like a tax credit. Oh no. It's[00:18:27] called[00:18:28] Jonathan: is a tax credit, but you just get it as a[00:18:30] Angela: It's a check.[00:18:32] Jonathan: It's not deducted from your tax filing later on in the year. You just get it back right now and you can, you can like, there's no stipulations on what you spend it on. You're probably going to spend it on salaries, but, um,[00:18:43]Angela: yeah, I just, I thought that was really, really slick. It was a bit of a surprise to me that we were even going to be SR&ED-able last year. Um, now that we look back on it and I'm like, Oh, well of course we were, but just at the time, I had no idea. So it's always worth looking into, even if you don't think that you might qualify for it yet, because we didn't even have a product at that point.[00:19:02] Right. We were in the midst of building one[00:19:04] Jonathan: that's, that's good. Right? And There's some great programs like the Venture for Canada, which is a new program that I didn't know about. Um, they will back 50% of a, of, uh, uh, co-op student. So they have to be enrolled in co-op. Um, And they will pay for 50% of their salary up to like $5,000.[00:19:27] I think it is. Um, that's a super, super great program.[00:19:31] Um, but you can also stack that against another grant that BC has as in the, so Innovate BC has a, has their ISI grant. And then they have this other thing called co-op they're funny.[00:19:41] One is you must be corrupt students. The other is you[00:19:44] Angela: You must not be a CO-OP. Exactly. Yeah, we'll be hiring an intern for the fall semester with the, she is not a co op[00:19:54] Jonathan: The ISI that's the innovative innovation skills initiative[00:19:58] Angela: exactly. And it's a, it's a collaborative program between Innovate BC and New Ventures BC[00:20:04] Jonathan: Yeah. Yep.[00:20:06] Um, have you hired the person yet? Have you identified the[00:20:08] Angela: Yeah, we have, yeah, September 8th or ninth.[00:20:13] Just part time. So they, because, because they are in school right now also, so they're going to be going to school while they do this.[00:20:20] Jonathan: local or? Sweet, that's exciting.[00:20:24]Are Incentives All They Are Cracked Up To Be[00:20:24] I actually have a, kind of a, also like an opposite view to grants and tax incentives. Um, and it's, it's something that, a bit of a mentor of mine had sort of pointed out was that it may actually disincentivize companies to do the thing that they're supposed to do, which is get revenue from customers.[00:20:45] Angela: Oh, okay. I can see how that can be distracting.[00:20:50] Jonathan: you can get, yeah, you can get really distracted with pursuing grants and because there's all of these available incentives, it becomes a bit of a distraction to pursue them all and, um, you know, to go and, you know, try and get your IRAP grant.[00:21:03] And if you can't get it, then, well, you know, don't try. But really like if you just, if you took it, the approach to building your product a little differently, you might not need the grant in the first place. I still think there's lots of room for, for grants in certain applications. And obviously if they're there, you're going to go and try and take advantage of them.[00:21:19] But I think it creates a, a weird, um, I don't want to say like a lack of hustle, but like a little bit of a lack of a hustle in companies, because they just think that the government will just support them[00:21:31] Angela: Oh, that's and you know what? That is a, that is a totally fair perspective. As a company that has emerged from a government funded project, we could have gone down that rabbit hole or real easily. What I think helped us is focusing on the product that you want to build, focusing on what the users want.[00:21:55] And in our case, you know, the other stakeholders being the patients, what makes the most sense for that? And. Pairing that with, I have a bit of a background in grants and funding and kind of knowing what's out there. So that was more organic for me is that the focus was build this and then[00:22:15] is there anybody out there that has some incentives to help us build this? And if not, we're building it anyway. But anything and maybe that's the way I've approached it is everything is a bonus to me. The SR&ED was a total bonus. I mean, didn't, didn't expect that one at all.[00:22:33] The youth employment grant was probably more pivotal. Um, because I knew I did want her, I, I, I don't, I don't think I could have hired her without it. So that was huge. But when you're talking about IRAP money, that is an interesting one because you have to be very, very specific on what you're doing. So here's a really good example of we've been in talks with IRAP about potential projects and things like that.[00:23:01] Just as, as advisors through IRAP are supposed to have conversations with companies like us, about. And, um, there's been a couple of times where we've moved ahead quickly enough that the program wouldn't have caught up with us. Like we would have had to apply for a program, but by the time the money had come up, we would have already built it.[00:23:22] It would have already been done. Like we're like now we're beyond that. We're going on to the next thing. but that could have been a spot where we could have delayed it. Cause it was like, Oh, we'll just wait for that IRAP money. Yeah. Wait for the grant, wait for the incentive to come out and then yada, yada.[00:23:37] So I think you're absolutely right. As, um, specifically someone in like my seat, you can get so distracted and that was actually leading into the other thing I wanted to talk about too, was these contests. And these, um, purses and pockets of money were like these pitch contests[00:23:57] and I will tell you, especially as a female founder, there are so many that are targeted at me. Like in any given week, I am getting probably five to six emails about something that somebody would like us to apply for and be part of, and I'm that, that can be[00:24:22] Jonathan: Oh, yeah. Cause I mean the, yeah, it's the point of every business is to enter pitch competitions and.[00:24:29] Angela: I can't I can't I'm so, um, and last year he got caught up in that a little bit. I will say, like, there was a couple, I probably entered four or five, um, unsuccessfully in most cases, but. This year it was one thing I told myself. I was like, you're not doing that this year. You're not entering these competitions.[00:24:49] You're not entering these contests. Um, you're focusing on the work that you need to do. I believe that the success will naturally come if it's meant to be. Um, but by distracting me getting up on stage and giving pitches and trying to sell me and the company to a bunch of people is just.[00:25:09] Who are not, let's be very clear. These people are not my customers at all. Like not even close, um, just there was no value in it for me, or very little value, I should say, because there, there is, there is monetary value to it, but, and the chances of success are so low.[00:25:26] Jonathan: Yeah.[00:25:27] Angela: Yeah. So anyway, 2020 is the year where we focus on a product and we do not focus on contests.[00:25:34]The Oppression of Pants[00:25:35] Nora. my youngest went horseback riding for the first time when she was out in Saskatchewan[00:25:41] Nora doesn't like to wear pants a lot and she's potty training.[00:25:44] So she's in panties all the time. And so she, so she rode a horse for the very first time. Bear back in panties. It was so cute.[00:25:59] Jonathan: why should we have to live under the oppression of pants,[00:26:02]Angela: Nora's words,[00:26:05] I no like pants

covid-19 love canada technology olympic games canadian tech development healthcare startups financial bear sr bc british columbia pants exploration venture coop ridiculous incentives oppression saskatchewan grants momo staples john oliver pairing tax credits digital health fax nrc scientific research crs isi jelle lordy irap woman ceo jonathan so jonathan yeah marble league angela you angela it

The product development journey of Clinnect

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 11, 2020 27:21

Show NotesWe talk about being a social enterprise, how long the journey can take for start-ups, and Angela reports back on the pricing exercise that she undertook to find the "right" price for Clinnect. Starting out initially as a government funded project, this company had a few roadblocks to overcome in becoming an incorporated for profit business; along with the typical issues to overcome like sustainability, scalability, and revenue.Healthcare issues are complex and Clinnect had to learn to focus on issues, we delve into the pros and cons of trying to find a niche product to address a narrow, but important, issue.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)TranscriptJonathan: Wait, I want to get one of those. Um, I think, do you think in the audio world they use those, those clacker things like in the movies, those, um,[00:00:07] Angela: It's called the castanet.[00:00:09] Jonathan: it's called a castanet? You know the word for that?[00:00:12] Angela: Like the clackers like that.[00:00:14] Jonathan: No, no, no, no. The thing at the beginning of a movie where they go, you know, act one or scene four, take three.[00:00:19] And they[00:00:20] Angela: Oh, I don't know what those are.[00:00:21] Jonathan: Uh, I think[00:00:22] Angela: Sorry. I couldn't see you when you were, when you were saying it. And that's[00:00:27] Jonathan: a castanet are those tiny little symbols on your fingers, or that we should get one of those cat little castanets[00:00:35] Angela: I have. I have some, because my, um, my daughter uses them for music class.[00:00:42]Introduction[00:00:46] Hi, I'm Angela Hapke.[00:00:47]Jonathan: and I'm Jonathan Bowers and you're listening to Fixing Faxes, building a digital health startup[00:00:53] Angela: and we just got some new mics.[00:00:55] Jonathan: New Mics! Uh, This is episode five. We've recorded the first four episodes on our headphones. No, what are these called?[00:01:05] Angela: headphones[00:01:06] Jonathan: No, these aren't, these aren't[00:01:07] headphones.[00:01:08] Angela: like the standard headphones that you get with your Apple iPhone.[00:01:12]Jonathan: Right?[00:01:12]but now we've got these great new, uh, very cheap, the cheapest ones. We could find Audio-Technica 2005USBs as recommended by basically every podcast blog I could find. Um, but they were sold out.[00:01:27] Angela: Well, and I didn't do any research. You did all the research and you, I just said, tell me which ones to buy.[00:01:33] Jonathan: Yes, but you found where to buy them because they're sold out everywhere.[00:01:38] Angela: I know, I know the weird places to buy things.[00:01:43] Jonathan: So that was helpful because I was starting to panic that we were going to have to buy $300 microphones instead of a hundred dollar microphones.[00:01:50] Angela: well, the package was $200.[00:01:53] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it comes with the, it comes with the boom arm and the monitoring headphones. Um, the Princess Lea headphones. They, they hurt my, hurt my ears just a little bit. Cause I like, do you notice[00:02:07] Angela: The glasses. yeah, they dig into your head.[00:02:10]Jonathan: I've been wearing them a lot the[00:02:12] Angela: Oh, have you,[00:02:13] Jonathan: doing all my Zoom meetings like this with the microphone.[00:02:16] Angela: Is everybody commenting on the quality?[00:02:18] Jonathan: loves it. Uh, Yeah, everyone is saying Wow it sounds so good. And now Chris wants to get a microphone. He's he's got microphone envy.[00:02:27] Angela: That's definitely a thing in, in, and Zoom COVID days. Microphone and camera envy.[00:02:35] Jonathan: I, uh, we had a client meeting this morning and, uh, cause you can see the boom and the mic in the video call. And he says, Hey, what's that? I told them about the podcast and he holds up his really expensive microphone and say, well, let's. Let's compare. This is not, that's not[00:02:51] Angela: You're like, no. How about not?[00:02:54] Jonathan: he's got one of those pop filters and I think it's like a really cool condenser mic.[00:02:58] It is just sitting on his desk though. So he doesn't have the arm,[00:03:02] Angela: see, I don't know. This arm is like I'm that's most of what I love about this.[00:03:09] Pricing RevisitedJonathan: Uh, you know, what we need to talk about so speaking of the prices of things, so this being $200 and us thinking about, um, wanting to buy cheap. So this felt like the right amount of money to spend for where we are at in terms of our journey as podcasters. Um, but in the, in, uh, I think episode three,[00:03:29] Angela: I think it's episode three.[00:03:30] Jonathan: gave you some homework to go and use the Van Westendorp.[00:03:35] Pricing meter or price, price, sensitivity,[00:03:39] Angela: Price sensitivity meter.[00:03:41]Jonathan: Which is basically four questions that help you understand the pricing of a product. What are the results?[00:03:48] Angela: Okay. Uh, so, so we made the survey and I put it in linked it in an email, and then I just use my, my personal contact list and sent it out to a bunch of primary care providers and specialists that I know that I would hope that I could kind of ask a personal favor to[00:04:04] um, I sent it out to about 30 people, uh, nine or 10 of them got back to us. And there was some big trends showing up. So what you, what you have to understand is the four questions really kind of give you an idea of like the absolute basement. I wouldn't buy this because it's, it would be so cheap that it doesn't have any value all the way up to ,this is way too expensive for what I think the product is. So those are two questions and then the other two questions help kind of narrow in the, the, the sweet spot. So, um, just, , like what would you pay that's I, I think they use the word bargain and then what would you pay? And the, they use the word expensive.[00:04:44]And so what we did is we took all the responses, we plotted them on the sensitivity meter and before I say what the, it came out to be, I think last time, I guess, that it would be around $25.[00:05:02] Jonathan: Yes. I don't remember if that's recorded, but you guessed that it was going to be $25.[00:05:07] Angela: Well, and I I just figured it would be cheap enough that I could like, and I think maybe I was thinking that would be pretty, a pretty cheap price. So the price sensitivity meter put us in a large enough range of people, like on a, like a distribution graph. That would pay for Clinnect on a monthly subscription based model, between $50 and $75.[00:05:35] Jonathan: more than what you had thought.[00:05:37] Angela: A little bit more than what I thought now let's back that up. I think the original guesstimate that I gave, um, didn't have all the features that we were going to include in the basic model anyway. So we've upped the basic model to be kind of a basic plus model. And then what we did is we gave a really quick video on what we have in the product right now, and what features are coming within that basic model.[00:06:04]Then ask them to do, to answer the four questions. So we gave them a really good idea of what they're going to get for, for their money.[00:06:10] Jonathan: I love that you went out and talked with people[00:06:12] Angela: yeah,[00:06:13] Jonathan: feedback that was, uh, w would you say it was more encouraging to get those answers back the way you did?[00:06:20] Angela: I think when you build a product, your scared to price it, I think that's a scary thing to price it because now you're building a product, but now you're actually asking a very specific amount of money for it and asking people to take that out to their pocket and give it to you. So it was, it was a very, very vulnerable exercise for me.[00:06:42] And, um, yeah, I was nervous to do it. So happy I did though. Like, yeah, just so yeah, really, really good feedback really. And actually. Even since then it's caused a couple of people to come back at me and ask me like further questions and things like that, which is really great. Yeah. Like one of them was asking about, um, and not to get into the nitty gritty of it, but, well, how many users are you going to have per account?[00:07:09] And are you going to charge per users? Are you going to cut charge per account and with so many users and yada yada yada. So she had already started to get it into her head and was asking really good questions. And I said that I was like, Ooh, you've zeroed in on something that we've been talking about a lot.[00:07:23] And so I used that interaction then to ask her, I said, well, we're thinking about this. What do you think? And she was like, Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so just like stealing more information out of, out of everyone was yeah,[00:07:37] Jonathan: It's not stealing information.[00:07:39] Angela: not. It's it's asking your customer what they want. Yes.[00:07:44] Jonathan: Yeah. No, that's that's that's so cool. I think it's exciting that you have gone out talk to some folks, got some real feedback and got some additional feedback.[00:07:53] Angela: Yeah, highly recommend that anybody who's thinking and being scared about the pricing process, just ask.[00:08:00] Jonathan: I like that the, that price sensitivity model a van Westendorp is, is those questions. Cause you can just take it kind of copy and paste it, put it in there, remove some of the emotion a little bit, because it's not like you're on the phone talking with someone. You can just send this out somewhat anonymously.[00:08:15] It's not really anonymous, but you kind of send it out and it just removes that awkwardness and weirdness. And that anxiety, anxiety that you might feel.[00:08:23] Angela: Yeah. And I think that's exactly what I was feeling. So when I put it into a survey and I just, I think I threw it into Google forms or something like that and sent it out and just said, and I didn't ask for any identifying information. So, and actually said that right away, like, I'm not asking for your name.[00:08:38] Will you, you know that I know you were like participant number one, you can kind of anonymous anonymously do it. And I think that felt good for both myself and who I was asking to do it because these were for my personal contact list. So they know me quite well.[00:08:55]3 Years in the Making[00:08:55] Jonathan: what you want us to talk about today was the product development journey of Clinnect.[00:09:03] Angela: I want to talk about that today because. Up to this point, we've been talking a lot about like either current state or, um, like what we're doing right now. Hence the pricing thing and things like that. But I wanted to give a little bit of background about how we got to where we've got to and how long that journey took and how we've navigated along the way.[00:09:28] Um, just so maybe people listening can understand what that journey typically looks like, because so often we read, you know, success stories and you kind of get the story from the success on and not so much the really nitty gritty crap that led you up to that. And I'm not saying that our journey has had a lot of crap in it, but it's been a lot of, a lot of bumps along the way.[00:09:52] And I think talking about that, um, is hopefully good for people to hear. And, and maybe if they're in the middle of that keeps them, keeps them motivated to keep going.[00:10:05]Jonathan: how long of a journey has it been?[00:10:06] Angela: It has been three and a half years to now.[00:10:13] Jonathan: Till now, and we've[00:10:14] Angela: And we've just launched.[00:10:15] Jonathan: launched.[00:10:16] Angela: Yeah.[00:10:17] Jonathan: And we've only, we've only really been building, building the product, uh, for three[00:10:23] Angela: Three months. Yeah. Two or three months. Yup. Yup. Yeah. And we just launched three weeks ago.[00:10:30] Jonathan: you didn't have the goal of creating Clinnect[00:10:34] Angela: Nope. Nope, absolutely[00:10:36] Jonathan: w What was step one?[00:10:38] Angela: Uh, at the time I was working, um, at the hospital here in Kamloops as a project manager. And there was a, there was some government funding coming out for innovative projects that were led by physicians. And so there was a group of physicians in Kamloops, uh, the general surgeons that wanted to apply for this money.[00:11:01] But they needed to have a project manager attached to it. And at the time I was working four days a week, um, and was recommended to them too, that maybe I could take this project on for the fifth day.[00:11:15]Jonathan: This was a side hustle.[00:11:16]Angela: Total side hustle. And so what it started off as. Was the general surgeons in town really just wanted a place to centralize all of the referrals and pool them.[00:11:29] So equally distribute, distribute them or unequally distribute them purposefully, uh, among each of them. And so I thought, Ooh, that's kind of a cool project. I would love to try something like that. So that's where we started out. We got funding, um, in the beginning just to kind of do. Like analysis stuff, like typical government funding, you know, go out and do your, your SWOT analysis and your needs analysis and understand, you know, current state, blah, blah, blah.[00:11:58]We already kind of knew what we wanted and it seemed to fit with the analysis. So then we started to build a very manual process for centralizing referrals from primary care providers in the Kamloops catchment area, um, for general surgery. So we started that in August of 2017.[00:12:20] So that's coming up on three years ago. It was by December that year that we realized that we were, we might be onto something. The process that we were building along with the data that we were grabbing was becoming talked about a lot, not necessarily our data, but, um, in the, in the way of like wait time, data and referrals and centralized processes and things like that.[00:12:44]We also thought that maybe it would get absorbed by like a health authority or ministry or something like that. So we built it in that way that we thought, well, somebody else will take this on in the end.[00:12:55]Jonathan: As in, like, just take over, take over whatever process you've defined?[00:12:59] Angela: And there was a lot of advisors even advising us down that road was that if you build a good enough process, the, the health authority of the ministry will, will likely, um, grab that and integrate it into some kind of workflow that they already have. So we got pushed back on that.[00:13:18]Jonathan: From the health authorities?[00:13:21] Angela: So what ended up happening in about the same time that we were doing all of this, we incorporated Central Referral Solutions. So when a government funded project gets incorporated, some eyebrows get raised sometimes, and it wasn't an overly popular thing to do. Um, but we needed to do it for ourselves.[00:13:45] Like we were, there was a lot of us that were, that were, you know, shareholders in it or like stakeholders at the time and shareholders now. And we, yeah, we just kind of thought that we were onto something. So we incorporated, and so then we were seen as this, like this corporate entity that, you know, and there was just this push pull.[00:14:06] We were also starting to talk about wait times in a way that wasn't overly palatable at the time, because we wanted to talk about the whole wait time journey. And I think we'll probably do we'll deep dive into that at another time. Yeah. Yeah, because there's, that's a whole episode in and of itself, I think right[00:14:28] Jonathan: Well then we'll save that for another[00:14:30] Angela: Yeah. and then at the end, you know, when we started to bump into things, people weren't really overly welcoming to take this on from a health authority or a ministry, um, perspective. Uh, we decided to monetize it because that made the most sense. Um, and in a way that we knew we were a social enterprise, uh, we still incorporated and things like that.[00:14:52]A For Profit Social Enterprise[00:14:52]Jonathan: So you're a for profit[00:14:54] Angela: Yup.[00:14:55] Jonathan: company, right. Your company. So that by definition is for profit, but a social enterprise[00:15:00] Angela: but a social enterprise. So a social enterprise has not investors and making money at its core ethos, but rather, um, a social good at its core ethos and its core philosophy. And for us that we're not out to make a ton of money to make a change in a system.[00:15:22] And so that's why we call ourselves a social enterprise, but we are for profit. And I think that's another reason that it's been so hard to try and explain who we are and what we are. And especially in the beginning, because we weren't maybe even comfortable in her own skin in saying that. And I'm, now that I'm like saying it, I'm like, I don't even know if I still am.[00:15:41]Um, but. We knew that we knew that we were onto something, but we also knew that we could make a lot of good with it and do a lot of good with it.[00:15:48] Jonathan: Um, I mean, I, I agree with you, like I've, I've, I, I've done a bit of mentoring with social enterprises, mostly in the non profit side of things. And one of the things that they often struggle with is how to be sustainable, how to, how to do what they're doing. And, um, yeah, I guess scale that up. Right? So there's, so they're often so dependent on grants and they spend so much time just applying for grant money and not revenue from some product or service that they're offering that can, that can sustain the growth of this social thing that they're trying to do. Some, some organizations are very, very good at this. Most struggle. So you're describing, uh, an organization that is almost engineered in a way too, to be sustainable. There's the profit side, which sustains itself and sustains its growth activities. And then the the impact of the, um, of the activities you do have, have a social good. But you do have to monetize that, which you talked about, uh, just a second ago, you said you're trying to monetize it.[00:16:55] walk me through that a little bit. at a basic level, I think people can understand, like we're charging for the service,[00:17:00] Angela: Yes. So maybe what I'll do is I'll talk about a little bit about how we got there and I, what you just summed up doesn't happen easily and quickly, um, it's not as, as, as pretty as the summary that you just gave. Uh, it's usually ugly and bumpy along the way. And it has been a little bit ugly and bumpy for us along the way.[00:17:22] So what we started with was general surgery in town and I call it kind of like our R & D department is, um, we've created the central intake and the central referrals, um, to go and then be pooled among the groups of surgeons. And so in doing this, we were able to trial like a whole bunch of different types of workflows.[00:17:41] We were able to even trial, like the way we say things, which in healthcare can be the, be all and end all of things. Yeah.[00:17:48] Jonathan: Say things to, to patients or[00:17:50] Angela: okay. Well even just like literally the wording that would be on a referral form. Yeah. The impression that that word gives when you read it versus what you, the intended meaning versus what maybe the reader means.[00:18:04] And we've actually had a couple bumps along that way. Also the development of categories, referral categories. And we've talked a little bit about this in the past, but like Clinnect itself has started to create the idea that we should have a very strict set of categories that referrals come in. And like, even that we trialed with general surgery. Just really help in helping us understand what does a wait time mean? And then we've also done a little bit of consulting to help us gain even further insight. And we always say that. You know that this further insight will just help us develop the product even more. So in doing all of this with general surgery, kind of being our R & D department, we were able to go, okay, we have this, we were able to get a really nice workflow going, except.[00:18:53] It wasn't scalable. It wasn't sustainable. We were hitting we're bumping into exactly what you're talking about with, you know, the social enterprises and not being able to maybe get over that hump. We were able to get over that hump with Clinnect. And so that's where we were able to say, you know what, now we are, we are an incorporated company.[00:19:12] We are a social enterprise and we are going to be charging for a product. And that is Clinnect. And we were able to kind of take all of the learnings. Through doing this with general surgery over the past three years and finally build something.[00:19:25]Jonathan: When you say it was not scalable. I imagine that means, uh, it's very dependent on manual labor?[00:19:32] Angela: Yeah. Almost entirely dependent on manual labor. So when the workflows were, um, disjointed, so it required somebody to do one thing in this one software, take it over here and do another thing in this other software and then take it over here and do X, Y, and Z with it from there. nothing was automated, nothing was overly efficient.[00:19:55] There's room for error when you have a human doing all of this. So, it was way too expensive to have somebody doing this. So learning all of that is why we built Clinnect. Because we knew we were onto something and then just taking all those learnings and then automating them.[00:20:10] And it took a long, took really long time to figure that out and what that should look like.[00:20:15] Jonathan: I think, I mean, I think it's interesting to tie that back to the pricing a little bit like the, um, what Clinnect can do for 50 or $75 a month, how much work would that take a person to do?[00:20:27]Angela: So we priced that out because we were looking at doing exactly that and it sits around the 400 to $450 a month.[00:20:34] Jonathan: Right. So, so the, I mean, ultimately the value that's being created here is around $300 a month.[00:20:45] Angela: Which is pretty neat.[00:20:46]Jonathan: okay. Think back to my economics. What does that piece, when you draw the, when you draw the diagram and in that difference there that's the[00:20:55] Angela: I know exactly what you're talking about, but I cannot remember[00:20:59] Jonathan: We've forgotten so much of our MBA,[00:21:01]Angela: I think you learn about that in first year, business degrees.[00:21:06] Jonathan: I know my MBA was a lot of first year business stuff cause I didn't take business.[00:21:11] Angela: neither. Oh, my goodness. I love it.[00:21:15]Lessons Learned in 3 Years[00:21:15]Jonathan: So this has been a three year journey. We've we've really just started it's. Um, but it has been three years. So what, what are some of the other, um, some of the other lessons that you maybe have picked up in those three years, besides, you know, besides some of the domain specific stuff around the problem that you're solving.[00:21:37]Angela: I think what we learned big time as there's no quick fixes in healthcare. I was a little bit naive and we first did the project that I was like, Oh, we're going to do this and we'll fix this right away.[00:21:48] And there's just, yeah, there's just no quick fixes. good fixes take a long time in healthcare. They require a lot of thought and a lot of understanding because the, the problems can be so complex. Um, and it's hard to narrow in on problems because. In healthcare, there's so many other problems gleaming around that problem.[00:22:13]So that was kind of another thing that we learned is, you know, laser focus on the one thing that you want to change and go for it. And there was a few times, even you, would I be sitting in a meeting with you and I would have another idea for something else. And you would say, okay, you need to be laser-focused, Angela. I was like, right, right. I need to do that. So that was, that was.[00:22:36]Jonathan: Clinnect does feel very focused. even in some of the, planning meetings, it, we start talking about some features and some things that start to start to lose some of the focus, but yeah, it starts to broaden, broaden that scope of it. But at its core, it's a very focused product.[00:22:51] Angela: And I like that. And I think that that's a really hard thing when you're getting into healthcare solutions. It is really hard not to go for a bunch of things at the same time, but I think you're going to have a better success rate. If you really laser focus on, on kind of one solution, one problem, one solution, and then go from there and you can always build out afterwards, but, you know, try and try and focus on that first.[00:23:17]Um, there's also this thing around solving problems in healthcare that can be really distracting. And especially when you're maybe working with government bodies and things like that is solutions tend to be. Um, system centric versus versus like a patient or provider centric. And you can go down kind of rabbit holes.[00:23:41] Um, That maybe at the time seemed like you're solving a solution, but you might be talking to the wrong people about what that solution should be looking like. And I think this, once again, goes back to talking to your users and talking to the real stakeholders in this meaning, patients, providers, people that are going to actually be using this stuff.[00:24:03]For us at Clinnect we definitely had the opportunity to go down that system centric solution road. It would not have felt nearly as good as what this does, because what we're doing right now is we're really working with a solution that's going to benefit, um, the broader, good, not just the system.[00:24:25] So, so there's that.[00:24:27]Ruffling Feathers in Healthcare[00:24:27] Jonathan: does that ruffle some feathers a bit?[00:24:30] Angela: Of course it does. Yes. Yeah. Um, it can be hard because healthcare is so riddled with what we've always done it that way, which can be a real big barrier to systemic change. But then it's also layered on what I found a little bit with. Um, not just, we've always done it that way, but a pride in that way that maybe they've done it.[00:24:58] And so when you're asking people to start changing workflows and changing the way that they look at it, it's a, it feels personal when it's really, it's not it's, it is systemic change, not personal change, but, um, in something like healthcare, Right. I just feel like there's so much passion in their jobs and their work and their, and, and things like that, that people can get really defensive very quickly.[00:25:24] Um, when you're suggesting maybe bigger changes. Yeah. I think also for me, it has been surrounding myself with people that know way more than me.[00:25:38] In multiple facets. I think of, you know, even my, my, so my cofounders are general surgeons and, obviously they know way more than me when it comes to medical stuff. Then, , I partnered with, uh, with you guys at Two Story Robot and you guys know way more than me when it comes to tech stuff and yeah, just surrounding yourself with people that, that are amazing experts in their different domains really helps.[00:26:07] And it also like it doesn't put the pressure on, you know, the founder or the CEO to come up with all the solutions, but rather just, if you surround yourself with people who know better than you, then it, it helps also surrounding yourself with really good people because you will get beat up and you will fail and you will have to get yourself back up and you might sometimes need a need, a hand to get back up and[00:26:30] Jonathan: Yeah, I need a little reminder that, uh, why you're in this in the first place.[00:26:34] Angela: Yeah, yeah, for sure.[00:26:38]We Have Great Reviews![00:26:38]Thanks for listening to Fixing Faxes, building a digital health startup. I'm Angela Hapke. And my cohost is Jonathan Bowers. Music by Andrew Codeman. Follow us on Twitter at @FixingFaxes. You can find us wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And please do us a favor tell a friend. Thanks for listening.[00:26:55]Jonathan: Did you see the other review that we have?[00:26:58] Angela: My husband.[00:26:59] Jonathan: it came up.[00:27:06] Angela: He is, he's like her biggest fan .[00:27:08] Jonathan: I'm going to steal a joke from Bronwyn, uh, he's such a fan, he married one of the hosts.

ceo music google starting technology zoom healthcare startups mba lessons learned pricing microphones product development digital health apple iphone swot bronwyn kamloops woman ceo jonathan so jonathan yeah angela you angela it andrew codeman

Launching with Silly Bugs

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 21, 2020 24:28

Show NotesIn the intro Jonathan discusses the fall detection used in his Apple watch, if you are interested in learning more about this feature or how to turn it on then check out this link:https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/watch/apd34c409704/watchosSince recording this episode Angela has actually achieved the 10,000 step mark many times according to her Suunto 3 watch. She is still trying to get evening walks in.Fact CheckSurprisingly Angela does not spew random statistics this episode, so there was not much to fact check.Find Us OnlineAngela Hapke - @angelahapke - https://www.clinnect.caJonathan Bowers - @thejonotron - https://www.twostoryrobot.comCreditsProduced by Jonathan Bowers and Angela HapkeMusic by Andrew Codeman (CC BY 3.0)Transcript[00:00:00] Angela: This is fun.[00:00:03] Jonathan: That's how you that's. I think that's, um, like journalist broadcaster thing. Like you just put your face right in the mic and just click your tongue.[00:00:14] Angela: You have no idea.[00:00:16]Jonathan: I honestly have no idea.[00:00:17] Angela: Yeah, I know. You can tell[00:00:20]Introduction[00:00:20]Jonathan: Hi, I'm Jonathan Bowers. I am a software developer and uh, Oh, I, uh, I fell down the stairs.[00:00:28]I had Zach in my hand and it scared me[00:00:30] Angela: He's okay?[00:00:31] Jonathan: He's okay. Everyone's okay. I have a little bit of rug burn on my, uh, on my elbow, but I'm fine. Just a little bit of a bruised ego. And I don't understand how I've slipped down the stairs. Like I'm pretty cautious, not cautious, but like I don't, I don't fall down the stairs ever.[00:00:46] Like the first time I've done that.[00:00:48] Angela: That's why it's called an accident.[00:00:50] Jonathan: Yeah, I guess. So anyways, I was impressed with the Apple Watch's ability to detect the fall and it suggested that I call 911[00:00:57] Angela: I love that. why don't we have Apple watches on all our old people?[00:01:01] Jonathan: I don't know.[00:01:02] Super cool.[00:01:03] Angela: That is cool.[00:01:05]So my name is Angela Hapke, and I am the CEO of Central Referral Solutions and speaking about smartwatches, I got Suunto Watch for Mother's Day and I am yet to hit 10,000 steps a day[00:01:24]You have to go for walks in the evening. You have to deliberately go and get steps.[00:01:29] Jonathan, I do. I go for freaking walks in the evening. It just, it adds about like three or 4,000 steps, but I'm just still not getting enough.[00:01:44]Jonathan: I had one day when I was legitimately less than 500 steps for the entire day. I think I was sick.[00:01:53] Angela: I was going to say, were you in bed all day?[00:01:55] Jonathan: I was in bed all day.[00:01:56] Angela: Yeah. That's why he was sick.[00:01:59] Jonathan: I thought, for sure, just casual, like just ambient walking. I would have picked up some extras more than 500 steps, but Nope.[00:02:08] Angela: that's. That's amazing.[00:02:11] Jonathan: Ambient walking.[00:02:12] Angela: Ambient walking.[00:02:14]Clinnect is launched[00:02:14] Jonathan: Okay so we've launched Clinnect uh how do you spell how do you spell that how do you spell Clinnect ?[00:02:21] Angela: C L I nope[00:02:25] Jonathan: That's right.[00:02:26] Angela: it is sorry. I'm like my brain somewhere else. And I thought, uh,[00:02:31] C L I N N E C T[00:02:35] Jonathan: Clinnect it's like clinic and connect smushed together.[00:02:39] Angela: You got it.[00:02:40]We launched it last week.[00:02:43] Jonathan: Not a full launch, a soft launch.[00:02:46] Angela: Sure a product like ours, I'm not sure launches largely easily. It's it is more of a, it is more of an iterative launch. So we just, we brought on her first umm users on Friday so many, many years ago, I I've, I've dreamed about this.[00:03:09] Like I have dreamed about this for many years. I've dreamt about being the CEO of a startup, launching a product. And when I dreamed about this, the images that were in my mind were. We, you know, we would, I would be in an office with a team and there would be high fives that day champagne, and we would be celebrating.[00:03:40] And I launched on Friday sitting alone in my basement.[00:03:49] And there was nobody, but we need high five because way too early in the day to drink shopping by myself. So,[00:04:00] Jonathan: That sounds like that makes me sad.[00:04:04] Angela: but it's actually, so. It didn't make me sad because at the end of the day is still like, the dream is still there. Like the idea, we still did something incredible and amazing, but I think it's also indicative of many things I've been reflecting on recently. Around this, this dream and what I thought that it looked like 10 years ago and what it actually looks like in reality now is I always thought I would have time to lean into these amazing pieces of the business, uh, and take my time and be thoughtful and meaningful around all these decisions and put effort and just all this additional time.[00:04:54] Leading up to the launch. I had my kids home 24 seven. There was no additional extra time or energy because I was exhausted to lean into these things. Like I was sure I was going to have this beautiful marketing website up to showcase the product and launch it. And I thought, Oh, I'm going to be so meaningful.[00:05:20] And the people that I reach out to and talk about this with, and it just, there was, there's just no time. And, and COVID like, talk about a time to launch a product. This is crazy. And so all those things. And so as soon as I let go of that ridiculous dream that I had 10 years ago and went well, that was nice.[00:05:42] That was cute. That you had that dream and that was a fun thing to focus on and it allowed you to get here. Reality looks very different and that's okay because at the end of the day, we're still doing what we said that we would do. And it's still important.[00:05:57]What does Clinnect Actually Do?[00:05:57]Jonathan: What's the thing that we're doing. What does Clinnect do? It's in healthcare, but what is ultimately boil it down to a couple of sentences or a short paragraph? What is Clinnect?[00:06:12]Angela: Clinnect was built out of a need for patient referrals from your family doctor through to a specialist to be tracked and confirmed in a way that they hadn't been before.[00:06:31] Because far too often, we rely on fax machines to do those referrals, sending and receiving. And we figured that we could create, uh, an easy, simple solution that was far more secure that allowed, um, that patient referral to be sent to the most appropriate provider. Oh, while in the background building meaningful data for your community and in demand around a specific specialties and things like that. But at it's very bare bones. It is a very simple, easy way to send a referral from a primary care provider through to a specialist for patients needing to see any type of specialist that is not sent through a fax machine.[00:07:31] Jonathan: And so how so? How has the lunch gone? So it's, it's a soft, I wouldn't even say it's a soft launch. It's a private launch.[00:07:39] Angela: Yeah, actually, that's a good way of putting it because we only allowed the users on that we wanted to start with.[00:07:46] Jonathan: But we did launch like we did, we do have, we do have users in they're using, are they using the software or have they just created accounts?[00:07:56] Angela: They've just created accounts and are taking a poke around right now. Today, I'm connecting with, uh, the first person that will be creating referrals to be sent through and received. So that's exciting.[00:08:11] Jonathan: That is exciting. And how has it gone? so? It wasn't as, uh, as exciting or as, high fives and Champaign, as you might've thought we didn't have a, we didn't have a chocolate fountain.[00:08:22] Angela: I can do those are so weird and gross.[00:08:26] Jonathan: Especially now, could you imagine having a chocolate fountain.[00:08:29] Angela: Everybody there would be caution tape around it now.[00:08:33] Because it was a private launch, it went, it went pretty good. We were able to handle the users. There was a couple of bugs that came up, but we were able to, and your team was able to address them pretty quickly. We did have a couple, uh, things happen that we thought. Well, that probably won't happen. And we kind of pushed in design and development till later that we've now had to say, Oh, wait a minute.[00:09:00] We got to put a priority around that, which has been, which was just kind of humbling in the hilarious,[00:09:07] Jonathan: It's always, it always goes that way. We plan for the things we think, okay, these are the errors that users are going to encounter. Like, these are the kinds of things that users are gonna stumble on. So we need to fix those things and then they never do. But then the things that we think, Oh, no, one's going to do this, and if they do, there's only 10 users so far, so it's not going to be that bad. But then the first user, the first time hits the one thing or the two things that we deliberately pushed to the bottom of the pile.[00:09:33]Launching with a Few Small Bugs[00:09:33] Angela: That's exactly what happened. It was our first user and she, she, she, uh, yeah, she did something that we were like, it probably won't happen. Oops. It did.[00:09:45] We can, I mean, we can talk about what that was like. We.[00:09:48] can we,[00:09:49] okay.[00:09:49] Jonathan: sure. I mean, there's nothing as long as we're not disclosing who it is. I think that's[00:09:53] Angela: so our first user, we thought, well, they won't go into the same web page and register themselves more than once. So, and correct, correct my language around this, Jonathan, but, uh, what we, what we did, what we didn't do was like a system check to see if that user already exists in the system, because we just thought they would go in once register once and then, and then just log in after that was the very first use that we got on registered herself four[00:10:24] Jonathan: Oh, I know. And it's an easy, it's such an easy thing. It's such an easy thing to fix. I don't even sure why we didn't fix it to be honest.[00:10:33] Angela: Well, isn't that the hilarious part is, yeah. Like as soon as I talked to your team about it, they were like, Oh, okay. So let's just fix that. And then it was fixed right away. But our poor first user was like, I don't see everything that I'm supposed to be seeing. And I'm like, huh, well, let's take a look into that.[00:10:51] And then we discovered it was like, well, she's actually registered four times.[00:10:54] Yeah, so that was kind of a funny one. And then we, and then, yeah, we had some funny things around, um, case sensitivity for emails and which is one of those things that we probably should have.[00:11:07] Jonathan: Yup. Yup. Often all things that should have been done, because they're really easy to do.[00:11:14] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. So.[00:11:16] Jonathan: But, it's, it's a little bit of, uh, of competing priorities. Like there's, there's so much other things to do that are just so important, right? Like we need to have encryption working. We need to have all of these features that the people need to be able to use.[00:11:32] Um, and so. These things are up there. Easy. We can just do that last minute, but then we never get to them and they creep their way in. And then we think, okay, well we didn't fix those things. It's live. No one's going to hit those. We'll fix them in a bit. Um, but[00:11:47] Angela: they did my first users, the, Oh well, and I think, and I am not sure how to, how to say this, but Clinnect is an easy platform to use. What we've created is a digital health application that is so easily, integrated into their, their systems.[00:12:11] Like you literally take two minutes to sign up, whereas like most doctor's offices in MOAs are used to software that takes like massive, like many days to onboard. Like, so for example, like your, your EMR or your emergency, your electronic medical records, there's a team that comes out.[00:12:34] Jonathan: Oh, wow.[00:12:35] Angela: I mean, okay. Maybe, maybe just one person, but there's a person that comes out that is like an implementation specialist usually.[00:12:43] And they will onboard your office, like in person. And they'll be there testing things for usually like a day or two.[00:12:52] Jonathan: Oh, wow.[00:12:53] Angela: Yeah. And I mean, EMR is, are big and heavy and, um, but any kind of software that I think about that, you know, a doctor's office uses is typically pretty robust with a complicated ish sign-on process or registration process.[00:13:16] So it's a lot more handholding Clinnect is like, I sent you a link you signed on in two minutes and then you can send a referral. Like it's that simple. And because it's that simple, I think we were just like, well, it's that simple? what I love about clinic is, um, I'm able to say because literally just two minutes to sign on and you can send a referral it's that easy. And that is a very cool value that we offer.[00:13:50] Jonathan: It's the, the, the value is that it takes two minutes to sign off.[00:13:56]Angela: No, it's, it's a, what is it? A lack of barrier, I guess.[00:14:03] Jonathan: so, okay. So we've launched, we've launched, we've had a few users sign up, um, some, some, uh, a few, a few bumps, a few stumbling blocks. and then soon I think today, some of the users are going to start. You're going to walk a user through sending, sending the first referral[00:14:22] Angela: Yeah. I'm hoping it's today, if not tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. It's exciting. I think,[00:14:30]Jonathan: Why is it exciting? I mean, I get, I get why it's exciting for you,[00:14:33] Angela: yeah,[00:14:34] Jonathan: it's, it's, it's the dream realized, right? There's no champagne, there's no fountain of chocolate, but there's still, there's still software that's out there that a real human customer is using. There is, is going to use today. Um, why is that exciting beyond, beyond just the fact that that, you know, exists.[00:14:57] Angela: So if I take off my founder hat and I put on my like Joe public hat, is that what you[00:15:01]Digital Health is Pretty Boring[00:15:01] Jonathan: I guess, so, I mean, why, like, I mean, there's, there's all sorts of reasons why you got into this and wanted to build this. Um, and it's. It's not finished, but, but something is built and that's exciting for sure. That's, that's always exciting when it's full of anxiety of, you know, things going wrong and things have gone wrong, uh, small bumps, but, but it works, um, it's out there.[00:15:25] So, but what's the, like, what's the, what's the exciting bit now? What are you excited about now? And maybe this is from the point of view of the public.[00:15:34][00:15:34] Angela: It's so hard to answer. I think because healthcare isn't, especially digital health stuff really isn't that exciting.[00:15:46] Um, typically healthcare, digital health applications, aren't super exciting. They're not really sexy stuff that comes out and it's not, like rock your world stuff. It's usually fixing something, a systemic issue that we've had for a long time in a really obvious way. And I think that's what this is. The fact that, you know, as a, as a patient, I would go into my doctor and have a, have a referral faxed over to my specialist's office and never hear back as to where I was on a wait list if they ever received it.[00:16:26] Or if, if, if, if all of these variables Mmm we're fixing all of those, it seems obvious. And I've had this interaction with people. When I tell them about connecting what we're doing, the reaction I get almost all the time is, well, why doesn't this exist yet? So maybe it's not that exciting for the general public.[00:16:54] And rather it is more well about time[00:16:59] Cause I'm not sure that I could. I am not sure. I could go out and explain to people what Clinnect is and they'd be like, yes, that is so exciting. It is not exciting for people. It is more of a statement of, well, that just makes a lot of sense. Why the hell haven't we been doing this for a really long time?[00:17:19]Jonathan: It's a strange, um, that's a strange feeling. I experienced that every now and again, where I think back, like, how do I, how do I excite, um, 16 year old me about the kinds of things that I do now. And I don't, I'm not sure that I could, like, I'm not sure that I could say, Oh, you're going to be spending hours.[00:17:37] Um, leading a team that is building software to replace fax machines and it's going to be so awesome. 16 year old me is that sounds so[00:17:49] Angela: So boring.[00:17:50] Jonathan: boring, but it's, it is exciting because, every day, people are doing, you know, doing their job, trying to go about their day, get, get the things that they need to get done, done, and are stuck using whatever antiquated system or antiquated piece of software that they've inherited through, you know, whatever chain of decision making that led to that. And they're stuck with it and they're just trying to do the best they can. And I'm excited that, even if there's a little bit of joy, even if it's just once, even if it's just, Oh, this is, nice. And then that's it. But now, now they just go about their job.[00:18:29] Um, much, much more efficiently being able to focus on the things that matter. Um, you know, not spending their time sorting piles of paper.[00:18:39] Angela: The way that I describe it sometimes too, which some helps people a little bit. And let's be very clear that some of these features do not exist yet in Clinnect, but they are in the pipeline. Um, imagine going to your family physician with an issue he or she says, I think you need to see a specialist. And upon walking out of that office, you receive a text or an email that says.[00:19:07] Your referral to specialist so, and so has been received. The estimated waiting time is four weeks. We will be in touch with you. Um, and just, just that, just that simple, at least I know I am being taken care of because right now, when we walk out of our physician's offices with our kids that have just been referred to a specialist, We have no idea if that referral was ever received or not.[00:19:41] And I know a lot of people are terrified to pick up the phone to find out for fear of bothering someone or maybe being put at the bottom of an arbitrary list for bothering someone. Um, but this is like real time trackable referrals. Which yes, we maybe should have been doing for a long time, but haven't, so now, now it's time to, uh, but that's usually when people go, Oh, that would be really cool.[00:20:10] So maybe, so maybe if we could just insight that little bit of joy once in a while, where you literally get the text that says, Hey, and maybe even further to that, it's now been accepted by specialists. So, and so here it, you know, or even better click here to book an appointment, Things like that. Like, this is not, this is not undoable.[00:20:35] This is totally doable. I guess what I'm saying.[00:20:38] Jonathan: and it's not, um, it's not rocket surgery.[00:20:42]Angela: It's not, it really isn't, but we've been very complacent with, um, the lack of technology and in the healthcare space for a very long time. And that's what that's. I mean, I go back to why I'm excited about this is at the end of the day, we are, we are providing a service that didn't, it didn't exist in this way before I finally get to make an impact for far too long when I was in the system, um, I would be.[00:21:21] You know, writing, writing decision briefs, um, that were really exciting ideas and projects, and that would just get shelved for years. And there was no sense of change. There was no sense of making that impact. I finally decided that I couldn't sit around and do that anymore.[00:21:45] And when a group of surgeons came to me and said, we have this really cool idea, I saw a much bigger application for it. Whereas they were just like, this is how it all started. General surgeons and Kamloops just, just wanted one place where all their referrals could come into and they could pull it. This is how this all started.[00:22:06] That's all they wanted. Could you help us do that? Yeah, I can definitely help you do that. And my guess is you're not the only ones that need that.[00:22:13]What is Coming Next with Clinnect?[00:22:13]Jonathan: What are the next steps? Like, what are we, what are we working on next? So you're going to get some referrals happening. What else is happening?[00:22:19] Angela: So we're going to test the system for referrals just to make sure that everything works. Um, and then we start onboarding, referring providers. So meaning your, primary care providers that refer patients through, that's going to be, that's going to be a, Oh, that's a long process. Um, but we're gonna focus on, um, kind of blasting to them that we're up for functional.[00:22:48] We're going, please sign up once again. Low barrier to use two minute sign up and you can send your first referral. That's the exciting part. And then we have other specialty groups that are interested in joining two already, which is awesome. So I'm actually thinking we might even have to queue them, which I.[00:23:12] Never thought that we were actually going to have to have a queue. I always thought we would be like going to them and saying, okay, I think you guys need to get on and then like trying to sell it. But I think we already have . Enough that are interested and it's just, it's the snowball effect. As soon as you get a few on, then everybody sees, how about hopefully how well it's working and we've designed it to scale.[00:23:35]Because this is based off of a workflow that we've been doing with general surgery. That was not scalable. So we learned, I think we've learned a ton there. And so that's exciting to see.[00:23:50]Growing the Waitlist[00:23:50]Jonathan: I'm looking forward to seeing that waitlist grow[00:23:52] Angela: be careful about calling it a weightless grow because we're in surgery.[00:23:55] Jonathan: Oh, right. Yeah, no, we don't want our waitlist to grow. we have this really long wait list to get into our software, but it, the goal of our software is to[00:24:03] Angela: Does it reduce the wait list?[00:24:05]Jonathan: Can, can Clinnect Clinnect itself?[00:24:08] Can we use Clinnect to manage our own wait list?[00:24:12] Angela: Oh, no maybe. In a way that's the way it works though.[00:24:21] Jonathan: So, okay. Yeah. So our wait list is growing. Your wait-lists are shrinking.

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The Virus That Changed House Cleaning Forever with Zeynep Mehmetoglu

Play Episode Listen Later May 7, 2020 11:30

Covid-19 is the virus that changed house cleaning forever. Zeynep Mehmetoglu, owner of Maid Bright, shares the changes in her cleaning business. Change the way you track and dispatch jobs, invoicing and bill collecting with HousecallPro.com/Angela It’s a difficult time for house cleaners moving into the future. New regulations have revolutionized the cleaning industry. And the way we clean will never be the same again. Today’s #AskaHouseCleaner sponsors are Savvy Cleaner Training for professional house cleaners and maids. And Housecall Pro. #AngelaBrown #SavvyCleaner *** LEARN MORE ABOUT ZEYNEP MEHMETOGLU *** WEBSITE: https://www.MaidBright.com FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/maidbrightservices/ *** RATE THIS SHOW *** https://sotellus.com/r/savvy-cleaner *** RATE THIS PODCAST *** https://ratethispodcast.com/askahousecleaner *** FAST TRACK TO CLEANING SUCCESS *** https://SavvyCleaner.com/Calendar-of-Courses *** MOST REQUESTED LIST OF CLEANING STUFF I USE *** https://www.Amazon.com/shop/AngelaBrown *** MORE VIDEOS ON THIS TOPIC *** What Cleaning Supplies Will Help Combat COVID-19? - US San Diego Health - https://youtu.be/tW-Gj4c35yk COVID-19 Transducer Cleaning and Personal Protective Equipment - AIUMultrasound - https://youtu.be/bNVtjV1TrAU How small business owners can adapt to the pandemic - One America News Network - https://youtu.be/GbkANXflN4g How coronavirus is hitting global business | FT - Financial Times - https://youtu.be/ulW0LMFEcNw 5 ways to lead in an era of constant change | Jim Hemerling - TED - https://youtu.be/urntcMUJR9M *** GOOD KARMA RESOURCES FROM THIS EPISODE *** These good karma links connect you to Amazon.com and affiliated sites that offer products or services that relate to today’s show. When you click on the links and buy the items you pay the exact same prices or less than if you found the links on your own elsewhere. The difference is that we make a small commission here at the show for sharing these links with you. So, you create good karma by supporting 8 families who work on this show. Nitrile Gloves, Disposable Gloves, Powder Free https://amzn.to/3fggpfw Disposable Filter Masks - https://amzn.to/3b4gAra Disposable Gloves Nitrile - https://amzn.to/35zJBcY Lysol All-Purpose Cleaner - https://amzn.to/3fhw26B Disposable Shoe Covers Waterproof Anti Slip Boot Covers - https://amzn.to/2WyS9g2 *** CONNECT WITH ANGELA ON SOCIAL MEDIA *** LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/savvycleaner/ Facebook: https://Facebook.com/SavvyCleaner Twitter: https://Twitter.com/SavvyCleane Instagram: https://Instagram.com/SavvyCleaner Pinterest: https://Pinterest.com/SavvyCleaner *** GOT A QUESTION FOR A SHOW? *** Email it to Angela[at]AskaHouseCleaner.com Voice Mail: Click on the blue button at https://askahousecleaner.com *** HOUSE CLEANING TIPS VAULT *** (DELIVERED VIA EMAIL) - https://savvycleaner.com/tips *** FREE EBOOK – HOW TO START YOUR OWN HOUSE CLEANING COMPANY *** http://amzn.to/2xUAF3Z *** PROFESSIONAL HOUSE CLEANERS PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/ProfessionalHouseCleaners/ *** VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING FACEBOOK GROUP *** https://www.facebook.com/groups/VRBO.Airbnb.Cleaning/ *** LOOKING FOR WAY TO GET MORE CLEANING LEADS *** https://housecleaning360.com *** SPONSORSHIPS & BRANDS *** We do work with sponsors and brands. If you are interested in working with us and you have a product or service that is cohesive to the cleaning industry read this: https://savvycleaner.com/product-review *** THIS SHOW WAS SPONSORED BY *** SAVVY CLEANER - House Cleaner Training and Certification – https://savvycleaner.com MY CLEANING CONNECTION – Your hub for all things cleaning – https://mycleaningconnection.com HOUSECLEANING360.COM – Connecting House Cleaners with Homeowners – https://housecleaning360.com SAVVY PERKS – Employee Benefits for Small Business Owners – https://savvyperks.com VRBO AIRBNB CLEANING – Cleaning tips and strategies for your short-term rental https://TurnoverCleaningTips.com *** VIDEO CREDITS *** VIDEO/AUDIO EDITING: Kristin O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/kristin-o POST PRODUCTION: Amber O https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/amber-o HOST: Angela Brown https://savvycleaner.com/reviews/angela-brown PRODUCER: Savvy Cleaner https://savvycleaner.com

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Organizing Her Life with Laura Souders, Professional Organizer