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Grab your hot chocolate (or mulled wine!) and get into the festive spirit with our Christmas special as we meet some reindeer, talk Christmas trees and explore a small but mighty wood with huge value for nature in the snowy Cairngorms National Park. We discover fascinating reindeer facts with Tilly and friends at The Cairngorm Reindeer Centre, and step into a winter wonderland at nearby Glencharnoch Wood with site manager Ross. We learn what makes a good Christmas tree, how the wood is helping to recover the old Caledonian pine forest of Scotland, why the site is so important to the community and which wildlife thrive here. You can also find out which tree can effectively clone itself, and is so tasty to insects that it developed the ability to shake them off! Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: Well, today I'm in the Cairngorms in Scotland. In Scottish Gaelic, the area is called – I'm going to give this a go - Am Monadh Ruadh. Apologies for my pronunciation there, but we are in the midst of a mountain range in the Highlands, of Scotland obviously. Generally we're about 1,000 metres high here but the higher peaks I'm told get to about 1,300 metres odd, which is going on for, I don't know, 4,500 foot or so. So this is a very dramatic landscape. We have rocky outcrops, boulders, steep cliffs. It's home to bird species such as the dotterel, snow bunting, the curlew and red grouse, as well as mammals such as mountain hare. But the reason of course we are here this Christmas is because it is also home to Britain's only herd, I think, of reindeer. Now, the reindeer herder is Tilly. She is the expert here and I've been braving, I am braving the snow and icy winds to be introduced to her and the herd. And from there after that, we're going to take a drive to what I'm told is an amazing wooded landscape of Caledonian pine to talk all things pine, and of course, all things Christmas trees. But first of all, let's meet Tilly, who looks after the reindeer.  Adam: OK, we are recording.  Tilly: That's good. OK. I'd better not say anything naughty then.  Adam: I'll cut out any naughtiness, that's fine.  Tilly: This is a bit of a rustly bag. It's more rustly than normal but never mind.  Adam: What do the reindeer actually eat?  Tilly: Well, so. We're now up in their natural habitat and we're looking across a nice heathery hillside with sedges as well. You can just see them poking through the snow and they'll pick away at the old heather of the year and the sedges.  Adam: Right.  Tilly: But we manage the herd and we like to feed them. So what I've got in my bag is some food for them, which they love.  Adam: Right. And what's in your Santa sack of food now?   Tilly: Oh, that's a secret.   Adam: Oh, you can't tell me. Oh, God.  Tilly: No, no. I can tell you. So it's a cereal mix and there is something similar to what you would feed sheep. Bit of barley, bit of sheep mix.  Adam: That's awesome. So not mince pies and carrots? That's only reserved for Christmas Eve. That's probably not very good for them, I would have thought.  Tilly: Yeah, no, I hate to say this, but reindeer don't actually eat carrots.  Adam: Oh right okay, well, that's good to know.  Tilly: But if ever children bring carrots for them, I never turn them away because we're very good at making carrot soup and carrot cake.  Adam: Santa's helpers get the carrots.  Tilly: And I'm absolutely certain that Santa eats all the mince pies, so all good. So anyway, come on through here. We're going now into a 1000-acre enclosure. It just hooks on there, that's perfect, it goes right across. We could actually once we get close to these visitors are coming off from a hill visit this morning. So you'll be pleased to hear that I am the boss. I'm Mrs. boss man and I've been with the reindeer for 43 years. Now, their lifespan is sort of 12 to 15 years, so I've gone through many generations. I've known many lovely reindeer and there's always a favourite and you would have seen some real characters there today. And you couldn't see them in better conditions. Anyway, do get yourself down and warm yourselves up. Oh, you've done very well to bring a little one like that today.  Walker: He did pretty well until now!  Tilly: You've done extremely well. Of course they have. He's got very red, a bit like Rudolph. The thing is there's just that wind, and it's the wind that drops the temperature, that chill factor.  Adam: Yeah. So where are we going, Tilly?  Tilly: So we're heading out towards what we call Silver Mount. They're not in here all year. Different times of year, sometimes they're all free range, some of them are free ranging, some are in here.  Adam: When you speak about free range, literally they can go anywhere?  Tilly: Yes they can.  Adam: And they come back because they know where the food is?  Tilly: Yes they do. They know where the food is, they sort of know where the home is, but they do wander out onto the high ground as well, more in the summertime.   Adam: Right. And is that, I mean Scotland has different rules. There's a right to roam sort of rule here. Does that apply to reindeer? Is that the issue?  Tilly: That is a moot point.  Adam: Oh, really? We've hardly started and I've got into trouble.   Tilly: No. Well, we lease 6000 acres, right? So we lease everything out to the skyline.  Adam: So that's an extraordinary range for them.  Tilly: It is an extraordinary range, but they know no bounds. I have to say reindeer sometimes do just pop over the boundary.  Adam: And that causes problems with the neighbours?  Tilly: Well, some like it, some aren't so keen. And we herd them as well, so we can herd them home. And we herd them by calling them.  Adam: I was going to say, do you have a skidoo, or?  Tilly: No, no. Absolutely no vehicular access on the hill. It's all by Shanks's pony, everywhere.  Adam: Really. So you walk, and then you just ring a bell to herd them, or what do you do?  Tilly: And you ‘loooooow, come on now!' and they come to us.  Adam: Right. And so what was the call again?  Tilly: ‘Looow, come on now!'  Adam: Come on now, is that it? OK, very good. OK, I now move.  Tilly: Yes. But hopefully they won't all come rushing from over there.  Adam: I was going to say, yes, we've now called out the reindeer.  Tilly: We've just joined a cow and calf here, who have just come down to the gate, and you can see just for yourself, they're completely benign. They're so docile and quiet. There's no sort of kicking or pushing or anything. They're very, very gentle creatures.  Adam: And is that because they've been acclimatised because tourists come, or would that be their natural behaviour?  Tilly: It is their natural behaviour, bearing in mind that reindeer have been domesticated for thousands of years. We're not looking at a wild animal here that's got tame. We're looking at a domesticated animal.  Adam: Right.  Tilly: It's probably more used to people than some of the reindeer up in the Arctic. So we have domestication embedded in their genetics.  Adam: So what we're saying is, genetically, they're actually more docile. It's not because this particular reindeer is used to us. But originally then, if one goes back far enough, they were wilder?  Tilly: Yes so, it's a really interesting process of domestication of reindeer, which happened in the Old World, so Russia, Scandinavia, inner Mongolia, outer Mongolia. And that is reindeer and many, many reindeer in these Arctic areas, are domesticated. They're not wild.  Adam: And that started happening, do we have an idea when?  Tilly: Probably about 10,000 years ago. But if you go to the New World, to Alaska and North Canada, exactly the same animal is called a caribou. Caribou are never domesticated. The indigenous people of these areas never embraced the herding and enclosing of reindeer, which was caribou, whereas in the Old World it became very, very important to the men, the people's survival.  Adam: And then the caribou, do they have a different character?   Tilly: Yes, they're wilder. And it's a little bit difficult to show today – you see quite strong colour variation in reindeer, which you don't see in caribou, and colour variation is man's influence on selecting for colour. So you'd get very light coloured ones, you'd get white ones in reindeer, you'd get very dark ones, but in caribou they're all the same, brownie-grey colour. Yeah, they felt that the white reindeer were important in the herd for whatever reasons, Germanic reasons or whatever. Interestingly, the Sámi - and I'm not sure if there could be a white one up in the herd here at the moment - describe them as lazy reindeer, the white ones.  Adam: Why?  Tilly: Well, I didn't know why until I worked out why white reindeer are often deaf. So they sleep, they don't get up when everybody else gets up and moves, and this white reindeer doesn't realise that the herd has left them. So they're not all deaf, but certain white ones are.  Adam: Very important question, obvious but I didn't ask it to begin with because I'm a fool. Why are reindeer connected to Christmas?  Tilly: Well, that's a really good question, because actually they think it stems from a poet called Clement C Moore, who wrote a poem in America, he had Scandinavian Germanic connections, called The Night Before Christmas, where Donder, Blitzen, Cupid, Comet, fly through the air with Saint Nick in the sleigh, the little Santa.  Adam: Yeah.  Tilly: But, so that really set the scene of eight reindeer and the sleigh, and that was based on the Norwegian God Odin, who had eight legs and strode through the sky with these eight legs and eight reindeer. Then we have Rudolph, who turns up, but he doesn't turn up until the time of prohibition in America.  Adam: So Rudolph isn't in the original poem?  Tilly: Absolutely not. Rudolph is an impostor.  Adam: I didn't know that!  Tilly: He, so he, it was a marketing exercise for a department store during alcohol prohibition. And it was Rudolph with his red nose, and his red nose is because of alcohol.  Adam: Because he drank too much? So was it in favour of alcohol or was it going ‘what terrible thing happens to you when you drink'?  Tilly: I'm not terribly sure. But anyway, Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer was the song, so that adds to it. And then along comes Coca-Cola who used a red and white Santa to promote Coca-Cola at Christmas time. So the red and white Santa is Coca-Cola.  Adam: Right. And the red-nose reindeer is from alcohol and reindeer comes from an actual American poem, of which Rudolph wasn't part of anyway. That's all simple to understand then!  Tilly: Exactly. Perfect.  Adam: Well, we're moving up to some of the more exposed slopes. Tilly has gone ahead. I'm just going to catch up back with her, and ask how she started as one of UK's first reindeer herders. Well, certainly, one of our few reindeer experts.  Tilly: I came up to volunteer and I met the keeper who was looking after the reindeer for Dr Lindgren, who was the lady who brought them in with her husband, Mr Utsi, and he was quite good looking.   Adam: Is this a revelation you wish to make to them?  Tilly: And the reindeer were endearing, and the mountains were superb, and so I married the keeper.  Adam: Right, you did marry him! I thought you were telling me about another man other than your husband.  Tilly: So I married Alan. We married in 1983 and I've been here ever since.  Adam: And so the purpose of having reindeer here originally was what?  Tilly: Ah, good question. Mr Utsi came here and was very taken by the landscape and the environment, the habitat, because it was so similar to his own home country of north Sweden. And he begged the question where are the reindeer? Why are there not reindeer here? And it was on that notion that he and his wife, Dr Lindgren, devoted the latter half of their lives to bringing reindeer back to Scotland.  Adam: So that's interesting. So, it raises the difference of ecological or sort of natural question, of whether these are indigenous animals.  Tilly: Yes. So it's an interesting idea. Certainly, the habitat's available for them and they live in their natural environment. But when they became extinct, or not extinct, but when they weren't in Scotland, some people say as recently as 600 years ago and some people say as long as 2,000 years ago. If it's 2,000 years ago, they're described as a past native.  Adam: So OK, I didn't realise that, but is there any debate around whether they were originally - whatever originally is –  Tilly: They were definitely here.  Adam: So they are native? They're not sort of imported, they have died out and been brought back here.  Tilly: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, they were reintroduced, but how, what that time span is, some people say sooner than later, and Mr Utsi certainly identified this as a very suitable spot for them.  Adam: Any idea why they might have died out? Do we know?  Tilly: Probably a bit of climate change and also probably hunting. Very easy animal to hunt. Are you OK with this chitter chatter going on?  Adam: Yes, it's all good, and a bit of, do you call it mooing?   Tilly: Oh no, the reindeer aren't making any noise, they're clicking.  Adam: Someone was mooing!  Tilly : I think it was the people.  Adam: I thought it was the reindeer making that noise.   Tilly: Not at all. They're very silent.   Adam: They'd have left this podcast thinking reindeer moo.  Tilly: They would have. Exactly. No, they are really, really silent animals.  Adam: There's a very large reindeer there coming down the road.  Tilly: Oh, that's OK, that's Akubra, he'll do nothing to you at all. He's an absolute genuine reindeer. He's lovely. But he listened to the clicking as they walk. You can't hear it because of your headphones.  Adam: OK, so I guess later on I'll put a microphone on a reindeer. That will be a first. One other thing I always imagined when you saw a set of antlers on a sort of grand Scottish mansion, I thought, oh well, they've killed that the reindeer. And actually, that's not true, is it? They fall off.  Tilly: They do. You're absolutely right. Having it depends how you see the antlers. If the antlers are still on a skull, that animal has been killed and there's nothing wrong with that. There is a, you know, the animals need to be controlled. But you're also right. Antlers are lost every year and regrown again, so they cast their antlers and they regrow their antlers. So in a reindeer's life, if a reindeer is 10 years old, he will have just grown his 11th set of antlers.  Adam: And the purpose of antlers is fighting? I'm a big girl, I'm a big boy, whatever.   Tilly: Yeah, mainly for fighting, a weapon. So for the big breeding males, it's for claiming harem for females, so in the breeding season. And those big breeding bulls will actually lose their antlers around about now, their antlers will fall off and then they won't regrow their antlers until next spring, right? The females, little females like this, keep those boney antlers all winter and they use them for competing for food, so they can jab another reindeer and push it off and they can get into the food as a result.   Adam: The other thing I can notice about some of them, but not the reindeer in front of us, but I think the one walking away, although this looks very bony, the other one has sort of felt on it, and what looks like blood. So what's going on there?  Tilly: Yes. So they are the velvet antlers on the Christmas reindeer that have finished growing, but they don't lose the velvet properly and there is still potentially blood in the bone, as it were.  Adam: So there's this sort of capillary underneath the felt.  Tilly: Yes, exactly, because the antler's a really interesting appendage because it grows from the tip. It doesn't grow from the base, so the blood supply has to go all the way to the tip to grow. And the velvet skin carries that blood supply.  Adam: Right. I see. So now the reindeer in front of us has no velvet so that can't grow.  Tilly: And no blood supply. Exactly. And the only way she can grow, get more antlers or bigger antlers, is to lose the whole thing and grow it again next year. Yes.  Adam: So any other serious facts we should note, to inform ourselves about reindeer?  Tilly: Oh, lots of serious facts. So they're the only deer species where the males and the females grow antlers. Every other deer species, it's only the males that grow the antlers. They are the only deer species that's been domesticated by man. All the other species of deer, we're talking about 40 different species, are all truly wild animals. They can survive in the coldest parts of the world, so in the middle of Siberia, the temperature can go down to -72 and reindeer are still living there quite happily.  Adam: It's cold today, but it's probably -2 or something.  Tilly: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Man cannot live in the Arctic without an animal to live by, and it's reindeer that he lives by. Man would never have gone into these areas. Obviously now they're all digging up, you know, getting the oil and the gas and everything. But indigenous man can only survive in these areas if he has reindeer as his farm animal of the north, so they're really important to the indigenous people of the north.  Adam: And in that sort of role, then, you can clearly eat reindeer. Then what else does it provide us?  Tilly: Absolutely. So it provides with meat. There are indigenous people that milk them in season. They have these tremendous coats that are used for covering tents and for people's, you know, clothing. And the antlers? Not now, but the antlers would have been used as tools in the past.  Adam: And have you ever had reindeer milk?  Tilly: I have tried, yes, we have milked the odd reindeer for one reason or another. It's very rich, very rich.  Adam: You have! Rich, is that good or quite fatty? Is it drinkable?  Tilly: That's good. Yeah, it's totally drinkable. Totally nice.  Adam: Yeah, I think yaks or a drink made from yaks, which was disgusting, I found in Mongolia, but I really found it difficult. It wasn't my thing.  Tilly: But it wasn't the fermented one, was it? Because in Mongolia they're into fermented mare's milk.   Adam: That might be what I had.  Tilly: And that is revolting.   Adam: Yes, OK, that's maybe what I had. How unusual is reindeer milk then?  Tilly: Yeah. It's got a very high fat content. They produce very little milk, because if you had a great big swinging under in in freezing conditions, you'd have ice cream, you wouldn't have milk.  Adam: The other thing I noticed that we haven't talked about is their hooves which look quite large and they look, I mean just from a distance, quite mobile.  Tilly: Yes. They are very, very, very flexible animals and their feet, their hooves are very big. Of course, for snow. Walking on the snow, spreading the weight, but also great shovels for digging. So they dig. You know, if you're in two feet, three feet of snow in north Sweden, you've got to get to the food underneath and to get to it, they need to dig. So they're great diggers.  Adam: And your life now here. It's quite a change from where you grew up, I appreciate.  Tilly: Certain years, a very rural life I had then. I have an equally country-wise life now. I will go to my grave with reindeer. They are my complete nutter passion. They are the most wonderful animals to be amongst, they put a smile on your face. They live in a beautiful area. They're just, they're just lovely animals and they give me a lot of pleasure. Yeah, yeah.  Adam: Fantastic. And if people are in the Cairngorms and want to have their own trip to see the reindeer, they call the what?  Tilly: They call the Cairngorm Reindeer Centre. You could do it on the website, you can ring us up and they need to dress up. I'm sure you appreciate you, are your feet cold yet?  Adam: No, look, I stopped off and bought extra thermals on my way.  Tilly: Very good.  Adam: Well, thank you very much. It's been a real treat, thank you very much.  Tilly: Brilliant. Oh, well, thank you for coming.  Adam: Well, I'm afraid I'm having to leave the reindeer behind because we're now heading to a little lower ground to see what I'm told is an amazing forest of Caledonian pine. And to learn a bit more about the trees and their relative, the other pine, which we all know as the Christmas tree. And we're off to meet a guy who looks after the Glencharnoch Wood in Carrbridge, near the River Spey and Dulnain. And now, despite it, it's a quite a small forest, I think. But despite that, it's quite well known for being really important, really big on biodiversity. And it's home to a number of species including, but not just them, but including the red squirrel and the crested tit.  Ross: My name's Ross Watson. I'm the site manager for North Scotland for the Woodland Trust.  Adam: Brilliant. Ross, we have come on an extraordinary day. It has snowed. It looks picturesque, chocolate box, shortbread box maybe, type stuff, so fantastic. So just tell me where we are.  Ross: Well, we're in Glencharnoch wood. It's a wood that the Woodland Trust owns and it's part of a series of little woodlands on the back of Carrbridge between Carrbridge and the railway. And the Woodland Trust has had it for a number of years. It's a little site, only 36 acres, but it's a pine wood site and a really important pine wood site at that, in that it's a small part of much bigger Caledonian forests.  Adam: OK. Well, I want to talk to you about pine wood, because I think it just sort of gets dismissed – ‘oh this pine wood, not important, not interesting'. Apart from Christmas, perhaps, when suddenly it becomes really important, but I want to unpack all of that with you, but just explain to you we're going to go on a little walk. Hopefully you know where you're going. Good. All right, so just explain a bit about where we're going, give me a sense of the pattern of where we're going.  Ross: Absolutely. We're going to take a circular walk around the woodlands. The woodlands here, it's all about community. Everything we do here is around that tree. We're going to walk through a piece of land that's owned by the local authority and then go through our own land and onto privately owned land and then come back to our own land. And it really shows the connectivity of all these different habitats, all the different landowners. But really the path network is there for the community that's here and they are involved in practice as well.  Adam: So. Pine wood. Yeah, it sort of gets bunched all together, and especially the Scots pine I hear a lot about. But there are there are big, big differences and varieties are there? Tell me a bit about them.  Ross: The Scots pine we are walking through are really special species. That's the only native conifer in the UK, right? And that's why they're so special here. Really these Scots pine provide their own habitat all of their own. They're incredibly threatened. As a habitat in Scotland, we've got just a number of Caledonian pine inventory sites. We've got ancient woodlands, designated sites.  Adam: Sorry, just to stop you - Caledonian pine, Scots pine, interchangeable words?  Ross: Yeah, good point. The Great Wood of Caledon was the reference of the name of the forest that was here, the old, the original boreal forest that gradually reduced in size. Partly through climate change as the country became cooler and wetter, but also through human intervention through felling, fires, grazing, all that kind of thing. So now we tend to talk about Scots pine and Cally pine which can be fairly interchangeable, but the Cally pine tends to be the bigger, grander kind of granny pines, these really lovely old things you see in some of the landscapes.  Adam: But that's sort of just the way people use the word. Technically, they're the same thing, but we refer to the Caledonian pine as the big grand ones, and it comes from… so I just want to make sure I understood what you said. The word Caledonian pine then comes from a Caledonian, a forest called Caledonia?   Ross: Yeah, the Great Wood of Caledon.   Adam: Isn't that a brilliant name? So mystical and it sort of talks of Tolkien and other worlds. Wow, wow. OK. So we have the great Scots pine, the Caledonian pine. If people have a general thing in their mind about pine trees, what is special about Caledonian pine? How that distinguishes from pines in other parts of the world.  Ross: Well, Scots pine, as we're walking through this woodland, just now as you look up the trunks of the trees, as you look up the bark tends to go from a kind of grey-brown to a real kind of russety red, like a red squirrel colour. And that's a lot of the red squirrel camouflage comes from that, that rusty colour. So they're skittering around these treetops and they can be jumping around and they're nice and camouflaged because of that colour. So is that redness that you really see? But what we can see in here, a lot of these trees are very even age, it has been quite heavily thinned in the past, but then you come across a tree like this that's got a very deep crown. So you see there's live branches more than halfway down that tree, whereas there's a lot of these other trees -  Adam: Yes, I was going to say it's weird that they've got no foliage until very high.  Ross: Yeah, so this tree here, and foresters may call this a wolf tree, a tree that has occupied a space and it's just sat there and doesn't allow anything around it.   Adam: It's called a wolf tree?  Ross: Some people would refer to it as a wolf tree. What we would refer to that is it's a deep crown tree, not very imaginatively named, but a deep crown tree is really important here because of capercaillie. Now, capercaillie, you imagine a capercaillie's a big bird, a turkey-sized bird, almost waist height, a male capercaillie. And in the winter it will walk out across these branches and it will nibble away at some of the needles, and it will sit there and it will rely on that during deep snow for shelter, security, food. So without these deep crown trees, there isn't anywhere for them to go. So if you imagine a plantation, a very dense pine that are much denser than this and they don't have the chance for any deep crown trees. Then the opportunity for capercaillie here is much reduced.  Adam: Right. So there's sort of, I mean, look the elephant in the room. Well, it's Christmas around the corner. People have Christmas trees. Sort of most people know anything about pine, it's because they have it in their house at Christmas. That's not a Scots pine.  Ross: No, your traditional Christmas tree is a Nordmann fir. A fir tree tends to hold onto needles a little longer than a pine tree. And if you look after the pine, it will retain its needles, but quite often the pine trees will grow slightly too quickly, so it'll be a bit bare as a Christmas tree, whereas a fir tree is kind of hairy enough to be a good Christmas tree.  Adam: Right. And do we have, do we have them planted in the UK as well? I mean just for commercial cropping?  Ross: Yes, as a Christmas tree.  Adam: Right. So the other thing, look, we're in a really lovely forest at the moment. We're the only ones here. But Scotland, the iconic pictures of Scotland, are bare, bare mountains, aren't they? They're not wooded, and yet I've always read that that's not how it used to be. It used to be a wooded part of the country. Why did it lose so much of its woodland?  Ross: Well, it's looking back to, what, centuries ago as the climate became cooler and wetter, the tree line reduced in height. But more recently in the 1800s the Cultural Revolution created huge periods of felling where they needed this timber for industrialization. Trees from the woodlands near here were cut down, they were floated down to the river Spey and then out to Spey Bay and the Moray coast. They were used for underground water piping for ship's masts. Because these trees are, as you can feel today it's a cold place to be, they've grown very slowly. So because they're nice and straight as we can see, they are, the rings are very close together, so they're very sturdy. They're an ideal timber source. But then we start to look at deer numbers increasing and sheep numbers increasing. The more mouths on the hill meant that once you cut these trees down, it was much harder for the trees to come away again. And really, that's the landscape we're in now really. And when we're talking about those very large, deep crowned trees on open hillsides, these kind of granny pines are so picturesque, and really a lot of these trees, there was no timber value in them because they were already so crooked and they were left, and this is almost a remnant that's showcasing the old forest that once was standing there.  Adam: A lot of times, site managers, they're trying to keep things steady in a way, I suppose. Just trying to maintain what's going, keep that going, that's hard enough. Is that the job here or do you have bigger plans? Are there, you know, times are changing?  Ross: Well, this is one of eight woodlands I look after across the north of Scotland. Whenever we're doing anything, no matter what the scale of it, it's not just how do we keep the site going and kind of steady. It's about when we are doing work, how do we add value to that to make it better for the people that are living here? And how do we use that to continue to showcase these sites as the shop window for the Woodland Trust?  Adam: And is the idea here to try and remove the non-Scots pine, so you'd have a pure Scots pine forest?  Ross: Well, the Woodland Trust works on a on a threat basis really. So any tree is better than no tree, right? But if you have got a lot of spruce regeneration that's threatening this ancient wood then we need to begin to remove that. And that's been the case here.  Adam: Sorry I'm pausing because there's a lovely spaniel who I can see wants me to throw a stick, but I won't throw the stick. Very cool dog. There we are. Sorry, we were saying yes, so any tree is better than no tree. But are the other trees a threat then or not?  Ross: Well, the Norway spruce here has been seeding regeneration into the woodland areas and over the last few years we've cleared a lot of that and in some of these nice young spruce, we've been able to provide to the community for Christmas trees, which has been really handy. But all of that is gone now and we're left with this core of, of mature Norway spruce, that a number of them have started to snap so are becoming a safety issue for members of the public using footpaths next to it. But also there's an opportunity there where before that timber dies, we can extract it and it can be useful for the community.  Adam: And you'd replace it with Scots pines.  Ross: No, we're going to replace it predominantly with hazel and aspen. Because one of the slight concerns in having a single species stand, like we have here, where it's all Scots pine, is that there's only one species for the likes of red squirrels or the crossbills. And on a day like today we might hear crossbows coming over. There's only one species here for them, whereas if we're planting hazel, which is under-represented species here, that provides a different food for red squirrels in a different part of the woodland. And aspen is one of the most biodiverse species that we would have in this part of the world. And there are very, very few aspen.  Adam: When you say it's the most biodiverse species, you mean it attracts biodiversity?  Ross: Absolutely yes. In terms of the lower plant assemblage that's on there specifically and insects. And aspen, their Latin name is Populus tremula and the tremula comes from the oval shape on the leaf. Just in the slightest breeze, it's adapted that to try and shake off the insect burden because the leaves are so palatable for insects.  Adam: So the shape of the leaf in wind -  Ross: The shape of this stock of the leaf is oval.  Adam: And that helps shift any insects.   Ross: Yeah, yeah.   Adam: It's interesting because aspen, in my ignorance, I associate with aspen in America, but it's a native UK tree.  Ross: It is, yeah. And it will be one of the first colonisers after the Ice Age. That's, an aspen will have, the seed will have blown down as the ice is receding. But some of the aspen that are here now will be some of the oldest trees that exist in the UK and aspen generally now grows rhizomatously, so you'll see the roots through the forest and all of the suckers will pop out. And the aspen that we can see in the woodland today, they could have been here for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, and they've just, as the clone has marched through the landscape, it's just it's moved and colonised these different areas. They're fascinating trees. So when you look at some of the images in North America, you might see entire hillsides of aspen and that could all be the same tree essentially, they're amazing organisms.  Adam: That's amazing. So it's sort of cloning really.   Ross: Yeah, absolutely.  Adam: That's amazing. And also I can see right on the Scots pine behind you, beautiful lichen, which is just a real sign of the air quality here, isn't it? I mean, it doesn't grow and it's just often further south. We do see lichen, obviously, but often I see a bit. This is everywhere. It's a real sign this is good land.  Ross: Absolutely, yeah.  Adam: Good land, good air. Wonderful. Well, I'm going to take another shot of our colleague down below. Hello. Wearing a lovely red hat, almost looks like Santa. And then we'll move on. So we're going uphill a bit, you might just hear the snow crunching under my boots. So this is amazing. A wolf peeking out from the woods, which adds to the fairy tale quality of all of this forest walk. This is not a real wolf. This is carved in wood. It looks really beautiful and it's covered in snow at the moment, which maybe is why I didn't spot it at first. So what's the story here?  Ross: Well, the story here is that Carrbridge hosts the Scottish chainsaw carving competition every year at the end of August, and there are chainsaw artists coming from all over the world to compete here to do some incredibly elaborate carvings. They do benches and three-to-four-metre statues and it's absolutely incredible.   Adam: This is very delicate that I'm surprised this would be done with a chainsaw.  Ross: Yeah, it's a very specialist skill as you can see, and people have to be very artistic. You have to be very good with the saw, but also the bar of the saw is a specialist carving tool. But then they also can use all sorts of other implements to try and refine the artwork itself. And this is just one part of that much larger chainsaw carving trail that's in Carrbridge that really commemorates this annual event.  Adam: Amazing. Well, we'll leave the wolf. It's got even a little dark nose. Amazing. A little dog, a real dog this time. Well, yes, just to prove it. We've just seen some reindeer. Obviously they're a type of deer. Are they as much of a problem as the normal red deer that we know about? So what's your view on them?  Ross: Well, red deer, the numbers are extremely high in some places and in the Cairngorms, they're generally much better managed. But in other places where there just isn't that, that integration or the objectives are yet to be aligned with protected areas, the numbers in those places need to come down, but recognising that there are different objectives, there are different landowners who want to do different things with land. So in recognising and respecting those objectives, but generally, ideal numbers need to come down and they need to come down a lot in order for trees and woodland to recover.  Adam: But that's deer in general, just because it's Christmas, I just have reindeer on the mind. You don't see many reindeer here. Or any reindeer here?  Ross: No, you see them up in the Cairngorms, right?   Adam: Right. Another pitstop. I see some lichen with some snow on it. I should turn them into Christmas cards. I won't, but that's what I should do. So if there was a sort of a final thought you wanted people to take away about this forest or about Caledonian pines you're trying to protect and grow here, what might that be?  Ross: Well, for this woodland, and as I say, it's only 36 acres in size, it's a fairly small wood. But it's not to discount that, and we talk about the hundreds of ants nests, the crossbills, the crested tits, it's woodlands like this can punch way above their weight. But also woodlands like this connected together provide a much larger, integrated robust habitat. And it's just thinking along these lines that this, this woodland, although it has the A9 on one side, it's got roads on two other sides, it's got a forest adventure park there and to the other side, it feels like a woodland that could be squeezed, but it can also feel like a woodland that is a part of this much larger landscape and contributing to that. And I suppose in part it depends on how you view that, yeah. But the woodland is connected to its woodlands round about, so it's definitely playing its part and part of that recovery of the old Caledonian pine forest of Scotland, as small as it is.  Adam: It's been a real treat for you to guide us through it on such a special snowy Christmas-y day. So thank you very much indeed.   Ross: No problem.   Adam: Well, it's been a fantastic day. Which leaves me just say from the land of reindeer and Caledonian pine, can I wish you a very happy, peaceful and joyous Christmas and New Year? And I do hope that wherever you are, you are able to share the joy of this season and that you'll join us in the New Year for lots more podcasts and tree adventures. Until then, from all of us in the Woodland Trust podcast team, to all of you, can we wish you a happy Christmas and a great New Year and of course, happy wanderings.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

Regular guest Matt Courtois and I discuss what makes quality teacher talk. How should young learner teachers give instructions? How much should teachers grade their language? And when should teachers say nothing at all?Inside Online Language Teaching: Conversations About the Future That Became the PresentSupport the podcast by buying us a coffeeFor more podcasts, videos and blogs, visit our website: www.TEFLtraininginstitute.comSign up for our mailing listWatch as well as listen on our YouTube channel Ross Thorburn: Matt Cuortois, welcome back to the podcast.Matt Cuortois: Always a pleasure, Ross.Ross: Always a pleasure for me, too. Today we're talking about teacher talk. I feel that usually when you hear about teacher talk, people talk about teacher talk time, but today we're not going to talk about that at all. We're going to talk much more about the quality rather than the quantity of teacher talk.There's obviously so many different aspects and everything to teacher talk, but one of the most obvious ones is giving instructions.Instructions I feel are important for more than one reason in class, because obviously, if you don't get clear instructions, then everything else probably that you do in class is not going to work very well because the students don't know what to do.Also instructions, I feel, especially when you're teaching kids, it's maybe the time when there's the most communication in English because students are listening to you not just to repeat what you say afterwards, but they're actually listening so they know what to do afterwards.Matt: It's also when teaching kids it's one of the largest chunks of time that a teacher should be talking, right?Ross: Hopefully, not too long.Matt: That's probably one of the most common pieces of feedback I give to teachers is don't explain, show them what you expect them to do. It's so much simpler the language that you would be using by just showing them rather than explaining the whole process. Actually, any time you get a new board game like Monopoly or Risk or whatever.It always starts off the same way with you and your friend. Where you get out this instruction book and you look at these 40 or 50 steps, and the person is reading out every step of how to play the game and the same thing inevitably happens at the end of it where the person reading the instructions is like, so you guys get that?Ross: Not really. Let's just do one round as a practice.Matt: Yes, everyone always says it every time. Let's play a practice round and we'll figure it out and then we'll play for real. The board game is the exact same as a classroom activity, where the students are sitting there listening to this long process of do step one, step two, step three.It is all jumbled up in there. I think a much more effective way is just try it out for a practice round and then stop a minute, make sure they understand it and then go through the activity.Ross: It's like a picture is worth a thousand words and I feel like a demonstration is worth a thousand instruction. A couple of things that work well for that one is that when you model something, typically there's more than one role that the teacher needs to model.One nice thing I saw a teacher do once is when demonstrating a dialogue is holding up one finger on each hand with those fingers facing each other and just using our two fingers as a way of showing like this is these two people talking. Then, you could also take on different voices for the two roles.That's another thing or you could physically move. I've seen teachers before, draw on the board two faces and then stand next to one face and put on one voice when you're demonstrating one role and then you switch to the other side of the board and stand next to the other face. That helps to make it salient to the students.Matt: A lot of course book materials will also come with some extras that are useful for modeling. I know one school I worked at every set of course books comes with a tiger puppet. What a great way of instead of using your fingers and wiggling your fingers and you can be person A and then you can be talking to the tiger puppet on your hand as a person B.At another school, every teacher have finger puppets, they were able to have multiple people and on their fingers to show off the different roles within the conversation.Ross: I love those ideas. Another thing teachers do before they get on to getting the students to do the activity is asking some checking questions. But I feel there are some checking questions that are much more valuable than others, right?Matt: Yeah, the kinds of instruction checking questions you want short responses. Do you do A or do you do B? Are you the customer or are you the seller? It's clarifying key points of the task and the level of words that you're using, like six‑year‑old students, haven't studied words like unscramble, gap‑fill.To be honest, learning the word unscramble or gap‑fill isn't ever going to be useful for them outside of an English lesson. You don't want to spend that precious time teaching them the word like unscramble whenever there are those content words that you do want to focus on.See the rest of the transcript of this episode

Check our Dave's book, Lesson Planning for Language Teachers, at https://amzn.to/31HJtpkWhat happens if the important decisions about planning get left to coursebook writers rather than teachers? How much of the coursebook should schools tell teachers to use? And what can you do if your school doesn't let you deviate from the prescribed materials? Dave Weller, author of “Lesson Planning for Language Teachers” and friend of the podcast discuss.Ross Thorburn: Welcome back, Dave.Dave Weller: Hurrah! Nice to be back.Ross: Thanks. Dave and I were having a conversation a couple of nights ago, and we got talking about teachers uses of materials, right?Dave: Yes, perhaps in the over‑reliance of materials in the classroom.Ross: It reminded me of this quote from Ian McGrath, who says, "It's been argued that if teaching decisions are largely based on the textbook and the teacher's book, this has the effect of deskilling the teacher. If the person doing the teaching cedes to the textbook rights have responsibility for planning, he or she gradually loses the capacity to exercise the planning functions."He says, "The teacher's role is trivialized and marginalized to that of a mere technician." [laughs]Dave: It seems over my many year's teaching and training, one observation is that when I see teachers who have been encouraged to use, only use and teach from the materials they have. They seem to develop habitual actions in the classroom that they do without thinking without reflection. There is definitely a parallel there between the quotation from the graph that you read.The teachers executing their plan without really understanding or taking into account some of the learners. [laughs]Ross: At the same, it's quite obvious from a management point of view, why is a school you'd want to provide as much support as possible for your teachers? Both in terms of maybe getting teachers to teach as many hours as possible. You could minimize the planning. You want to ensure some minimal level of quality.Dave: Exactly. It comes from a good place to provide more materials, and more support is a wonderful thing for the schools to want to do. Especially from the terms of the quality of the class that the students have. At least if you know the teachers are using materials and following a strict pattern, then at least the students will reach some minimum level.It seems to be that there's a limit to downsides of perhaps hiring newer or less skilled teachers. It also can limit the upside, I believe, of letting those teachers then develop over time, because they're not allowed to.Ross: Absolutely. Over the next few minutes, how about we talk about how to find that balance between giving enough support, and then just limiting teachers to technicians?Dave: Sounds good.Ross: Great. From what you were describing earlier, obviously every teacher starts off as a new teacher, and every teacher, therefore, needs a lot of...Dave: I was born ready, Ross.[laughter]Dave: Not everyone's Dave Weller, though, are they?Ross: Obviously, there's an advantage to new teachers getting a lot of support, isn't there?Dave: Absolutely, yes. We often forget how intense an experience it is for teachers who travel halfway across the world. They're dealing with culture shock, new environments, new colleagues, and they're thrown into the classroom, the day after they arrive, when they still [laughs] have jet lag.In those situations, there's a lot to be said for the school providing a lot of support for those teachers until they can find their feet.Ross: I guess typically, what might that look like to describe so we're all on the same page here, something that's becoming more and more common in my experiences is giving the teachers not even like a recipe book, but like a PowerPoint or something to follow that your job as a teacher is to flick through this.You don't even necessarily even have to read the instructions because they're already on the PowerPoint for you. You might have suggested timings for just about everything, really almost like idiot‑proofing, teaching.At the extreme end, I've had managers asking me, "Can you write a script for the teachers?" The teachers, all they have to do in the class is read out the script. It's impossible for anyone to teach a bad class.Dave: That's interesting. Remember, that's with technology. Back in the day, I remember, when I first started, you were given the course book, and that was it. You had to pick things from there. You were given a certain guideline. Maybe each unit takes three lessons. There were six pages, so you do the math.[laughter]Dave: You went from there. You had a lot of autonomy over what to choose, how to sequence a lesson, you can move things around. You did have to rely a lot on your more experienced colleagues, which perhaps taught that course. Before, to give you ideas, it encouraged a definite interaction and collaboration, the staff from the people sharing ideas.Then I remembered a few years later, when maybe an update happened, course books are suddenly accompanied by teachers notes. First, people, the experienced teachers didn't use them at all. I just flicked through and pfft.[laughter]Dave: You turned your nose up at the book. We found that newer teachers would arrive and be very, very interested in pulling it out and teaching those lessons, as is until they became used to it. Then they found that they began with collaboration with input from their more experienced colleagues.They had more interesting ideas to try newer ideas, and they saw the benefit and the effectiveness of those in class. It naturally moved away from the teacher's notes. It's like training wheels on a bike, I guess.Ross: Obviously, the issue here is if the training wheels remain forever, then...Dave: Or mandated.Read the rest of the transcript here

Letterland teacher trainer Lesley White tells Ross about phonics. We touch on the history, the advantages of phonics over other approaches, different options to teachers within the phonics system and some of the differences between learning to read in your first language and in your second language.For more podcasts, videos and blogs, visit our website Support the podcast – buy us a coffee!Develop yourself! Find more about our teacher training courses Watch as well as listen on our YouTube channelRoss Thorburn: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. This week, I'm speaking to Lesley White. Lesley is a trainer at Letterland. She's got many, many years of experience working there as a young learner, teacher‑trainer. She's been running phonic sessions in the UK and overseas since 1992, which is indeed a lot of experience.In this episode, I got to ask Lesley all about phonics, a bit of background about where it comes from, how long it's been around for. Then we also get into a lot of practical advice for teachers. If you've ever taught any students to learn to read, then I'm sure you'll find a lot of valuable information from Lesley.Where should teachers start in teaching reading?Ross: Hi, Lesley.Lesley White: Hi.Ross: Very simple question to get us started. Where should teachers start in teaching reading?Lesley: Well, within our system, we start by teaching the very young children all the prereading and prewriting skills before they even get as far as learning to read. We want them to have those very early stages because we're working with children around about the three‑age range.Before they start even thinking about reading, they need to have the tools to be able to read. For that, we introduce them to using the knowledge they have about the sounds. We want them to then blend them together to be able to read.If they only know a couple of sounds, they don't have very much in the way of background or the very many tools to help them to read much. Start small and then keep growing.Ross: You mentioned there are prereading skills. What exactly are prereading skills?Lesley: Babies learn by imitation. That's how they develop their native language skills. That should be the same way for other languages as well. The nearer we can replicate what they do naturally, the easier it is to give them the baseline, the starting.We try to give them the prereading and writing skills, the ability to spot odd ones out, learn about logic and how things go together, think about the sequences. All those what I call prereading and prewriting activities, then provide them with a basis. Without that, the actual skill of reading becomes far more difficult because English is not a purely phonic language.We need to introduce the children to a systematic and explicit way of learning so that they have the tools to then be able to decode the message that's carried within those shapes.Ross: When I was a teacher, phonics was just starting to become popular, at least, in China. Could you give us a bit of a sense of what the history is of phonics and, maybe, how it's been used in comparison to other approaches?Lesley: I remember when I was at school, which is long before you were a teacher, and long before you were at school. I remember I was taught to use those sounds and talk about the C‑A‑T, the cat, sat, S‑A‑T on the M‑A‑T. The phonics has always been around and about for very many, many years.It goes in cycles as to whether it's popular within the educational elite, but phonics came back into vogue towards the end of the last century. The beginning of this led, in part, by the UK government's desire for all children to be introduced to phonics early in their careers, so the letters and sound document.As far as phonics for a second language, that's slightly more difficult because if the children don't have a vocabulary, then they don't know the words they're trying to create.That's why I say those early stages, those prereading, prewriting stages, includes helping the children to begin to develop a vocabulary and have some understanding of the language. It's not just picking up a book and barking at print.It is actually being able to blend the sounds together, read the words, but read them with understanding because so often parents will say to me, "My child can read these words, but they don't know what they're reading." That's as useless as not being able to read, if you like.Ross: It sounds then ike children really need that foundation in listening, maybe speaking, and definitely having vocabulary knowledge before they start to learn to read then.Lesley: Without those skills, then the next stage can't be reached. When we get children walking, for instance, they don't just stand up and start to run, they start with falling down and bringing themselves up again.We have to look at reading in exactly the same way that they have to take those steps slowly, little by little, adding to their knowledge and their understanding. The more that they enjoy and are entertained by it, the better their knowledge acquisition becomes, and the more they enjoy the experience.There are different types of phonics. There's synthetic phonics. It's the buzzword in many educational circles. That's about blending the sounds together in order to read words. We also have linguistic and analytic phonics, as well.Now, how relevant is that for very young children? It's about enjoying books. It's whatever way that they can look at print and get meaning from it. It is about getting meaning from it, not just what I call, barking at print.Stages in Learning to ReadRoss: What are some of the different stages that students go through in learning to read? Presumably then, the first stage there is for students to start to link letters to sounds. What happens from there?Lesley: I'd say the first stage is speaking and listening. As far as the silence, I think it's vitally important that the children begin to have a feel about the rhythm of the language, about the knowledge that sounds. So getting to that stage before they get as far as putting those sounds together and being able to do anything more than that.The first stage, as far as I'm concerned, is speaking and listening. We then go on, as you very rightly say, to identifying the sounds. There are 44 sounds in our English language. It's not just learning about the 26 letters and the shapes of those letters, but it's then about the combinations.If we think about it, consonants, B, C, D, are never ever confused in reading, but the vowels confuse and complicate because they make a variety of different sounds. Somewhere without making it too unfactual for young children, we have to engage them and help them to make those connections and understandings.Ross: Is there an order that is best for teachers to teach the different sounds and letters and in others, SATPIN, which is a common one? There's also A, B, C, D, which is very common. What are some such things and considerations teachers might think about before choosing the order they're going to teach the letters in?Lesley: My answer to that is it depends on your objective. If you're wanting the children to learn A, B, C, D, E, F, G, that's fine. That's the order that you'll find in a dictionary, or an index, or anything else. Getting the children to sing A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc., is part of learning a rote about the names of the letters.That's not going to help the children blend the sounds together to make words. The SATPIN teaching order, which is a sequence that has been suggested as recommended in various publications means that you can start making words after you've covered the first four letters.Simple words, but you've got S,A,T making S‑A‑T, sat, P‑A‑T, pat. Then we can turn that round and have T‑A‑P, tap. Already, even after four letters, we're able to blend those sounds together.That teaching order also makes sure the letters that are similar‑looking to young children like the B and the D...Some children are very confused by those two shapes, because they're very similar just turned round the other way, if you will.Teaching out of sequence means the children can become used to one of them as if you're teaching A, B, C order, the B and the D are very close together. The only word you can make out of those first four letters, you can make bad. You could make cad, but not very many young children are going to need that word.Now, other schools of thought would say that you want to be concentrating more on handwriting as opposed to the voice‑sight systems that will concentrate on getting the children to make a circle, an O. There are a variety of different strategies about which teaching order is most useful. I think you pay with your money and take your choice.At the end of the day, the children have got to know all 26 letter shapes, and the sounds associated with them. Once you've decided that your objective is to help your children to read, as well as to write and to spell, then you choose the order that works for you.My one piece of advice to all teachers though is follow a system because I've come across teachers who decide that they'll just do their own thing. They dart from one letter to the other because the weather was nice and we'll use this letter for some particular topic or something.I understand why, but in all honesty, letters like Q, X, Z, they get forgotten about. I would always suggest that teachers should use a systematic approach that captures children's imagination. Whatever that system happens to be, I can justify a variety of different systems.Ross: What about some of the more difficult sounds and letters then like "th" and "ck," etc.? When would you decide to teach those?Lesley: The order that has been put together by the letters and sounds document, which is the UK government's suggested order, make sure that the children are covering the S‑A‑T‑P‑I‑N to begin with. Then we keep going, we add all 26 letters.Then, sh, ch, th, are the digraphs, which will be introduced earlier, whereas some of the more complex spelling patterns, the E‑A‑R, all those sorts of things. Whatever program, whatever system one decides to adopt to cover all the sounds, eventually. There are 44 sounds in our English language. There are over 150 different spelling patterns.If you told me that on the first day I went to school, I'm sure I'd have said, "I don't know what on earth you're talking about." It is about trying to engage the children and add to their knowledge in time.Ross: Then what do teachers do about more difficult words? They are sometimes called sight words like, the, one, you, words that don't follow this typical phonetic rules in English.Lesley: Absolutely. You've got "the," even something that looks as if it would be very simple, a word like "no." When the letters are the other way around, and you have the O coming before the N, then it makes the O‑N sounds and the word is "on," and the children think this is fine.Then we put the letters in the opposite direction having the N coming before the O, and it doesn't make the sound stand. We don't say no, we say no. Why? Yes, those tricky words, high‑frequency words, sight words called variety of different things, depending on which expert is talking, are necessary to make reading have any sense.Ross: How can teachers teach those words?Lesley: To begin with ‑‑ I'm sorry ‑‑ It's a bit of rote learning. It is a bit of just stretching the word to hear what sounds you do know and identify the known sounds, but then also thinking, "Uh‑uh, that one's not making its normal sound. I've got to remember that for the future," so they remeber that tricky word.Ross: Once again, that was Lesley White. If you're interested in finding out more about Lesley and the program that she uses at Letterland, please go to www.letterland.com. Thanks for listening. See you again soon.

What shapes the ways we teach? What influences teachers' views and beliefs about language learning? Trinity College London teacher trainer Karin Xie and I discuss what factors we see influencing teachers' ideas about teaching and talk about how our own experiences have informed our views of language teaching and learning.For more podcasts, videos and blogs, visit our website Support the podcast – buy us a coffee!Develop yourself! Find more about our teacher training courses Watch as well as listen on our YouTube channelRoss Thorburn: Today, we have with us Karin Xie. Hi, Karin.Karin Xie: Hi, everyone.Ross: Karin, do you want to tell us a little bit about what you do? You do teacher training. Tell us who you do teacher training for.Karin: I work with teachers who prepare students for [inaudible 0:13] exams. It's a graded speaking exam that focuses on communication skills.Ross: You were saying also for those teachers, a lot of them end up teaching in a way that they were taught before, right? Which is really quite different to what the exam measures.Karin: Yeah. In my experience with the teachers, I found a lot of them, they would still focus on teaching students the knowledge, like the grammar and the vocabulary, so that students have the knowledge for the exam but not really the skills. I wondered why. I found that relates to how they were taught when they were students. How they learned language and how they were trained.Ross: That got us into this conversation about all the different things that might affect how teachers teach to them, we just mentioned. One is how you were taught as a student backwash, and then how teachers are trained.Today, we're going to try and look at what affects how teachers teach. Let's start off by talking about backwash, you mentioned earlier. What's backwash?Karin: It's the impact an assessment has on classroom teaching. For example, for [inaudible 1:18] exams, it's a one‑to‑one, face‑to‑face conversation the candidate has with an examiner. There's no script, no question banks.To prepare students for that, the teacher has to mimic what's happening in the real exam and give the students a lot of chance to use the language at their own choice and express what they want to say, ask questions, etc.Ross: I guess a good example backwash, and maybe less good would be what? If your test is a multiple choice, pick the right tense of the verb exam, right?Karin: Yeah, exactly.Ross: In that situation, people end up just...Karin: Giving students lots of words to remember and do a lot of written exams that don't really prepare learners for real‑life languages.Ross: It's amazing how much of an effect that they can have on what happens in the classroom. IELTS, for example, the speaking part of that test, this is one of my bugbears is that the students don't have to ask any questions in the IELTS speaking exam.If you think of what effect is that going to have in the classroom? If you're preparing students for IELTS, why would you ever teach them to ask a question? Because you never need to do that.Of course, people usually take the IELTS so they can study abroad or so they can move to another country. I think we all agree that if you do move to another country, one of the main things you have to do is ask questions because a lot of the time you don't know what's going on.Karin: Yeah. Any kind of speaking exchange requires contribution from both people whereas in IELTS, the examiner is not allowed to contribute to the communication by say, giving comments or giving support.Ross: Absolutely.Karin: I think maybe we could add one point here...Ross: Sure, of course.Karin: ...about the materials teachers use, especially with new teachers. Very often you see the teachers fall into the flow, what it says, and just use it as it is.Ross: Materials can almost act as a source of teacher training if they're good materials, because teachers will get into the habit, maybe if they're new teachers, of following whatever structure there is in the coursebook.It's problematic though, isn't it, if the structure in the coursebook may be using ideal or if the coursebook has been written for first year teachers and you never move beyond that.Karin: Or if the book doesn't allow a lot of communicative activities, the teacher may not even think about designing any activities for students to talk to each other and work with each other.I remember you were really excited when you were designing materials. You were like, "If you do a teacher training workshop with the teachers, you are not so sure whether they're going to apply everything. But if you design good teaching materials, you are kind of sure that they're going to use it somehow." I don't know if that's...Ross: [laughs] I guess that must be before I'd seen the reality of how teachers use materials.[laughter]Ross: I guess those are both ways of influencing what teachers do, but all of it passes through some filter that the teachers personally have of this is work, does this is fit in with my views of teaching and learning.I remember in a previous job doing some research where we tried basically introducing different materials in this job. It was all one‑to‑one classes. Because it was online, every class was filmed. You could go back and you could watch and see the effect that the materials had on the teaching.We did a little bit of research and started including some personal questions in the materials because we noticed in general, teachers didn't ask for [inaudible 4:47] . I remember one word that was a tongue twister.It said like, "Can you change one word in the tongue twister and make a new tongue twister?" Pretty simple. Not an amazing activity, but some tiny bit of personalization. Afterwards, we watched 20 videos of teachers doing this. 18 of the 20 teachers didn't even ask the question.Karin: I found if you have that is often at the end of the unit or of the chapter. You find teachers either saying that we don't have time for that anymore or they go through it really quickly, whereas that's the most important part of the lesson. That's when the students really get to use it.Ross: I guess you think that's the most important part of the lesson but maybe the person using the book doesn't see it that way.Karin: That makes me think about why we make those different choices. We both have the same course book, but we use it so differently. That, I think, is the beliefs we have towards teaching.Ross: Absolutely. Another thing that maybe affects how teachers' beliefs are formed obviously is people's own experiences as a student. I can't remember what the numbers are, but it's something like by the time you graduate from university, you've been a student for something like 20,000 hours.If do a CELTA course or something, or an initial teaching course, if you're lucky you do like a 120 hours. You're at 120 hours versus 20,000 hours. One month versus 20 years of education. It's very, very difficult to break the beliefs that are formed and how teachers themselves have been taught as students.Karin: I always think about the teachers that taught me and the good things that they did that I think made me learn better and the things that I didn't really enjoy. I think that shaped my teaching beliefs.Ross: Which is interesting, but it reminds me of the George Bernard Shaw quote, "Don't do unto others as you would have them do unto you." It assumes people's preferences are the same. Obviously, it's worth thinking about what you liked or disliked about your teachers might be different to what the other people in the class liked and disliked about their teachers.Karin: I was thinking about the cultural environment behind our teaching beliefs. The one reason that my teachers used to do the lecture style teacher‑centric way of teaching is because the thousand‑year‑old teaching belief of the role of a teacher is to impart the knowledge to the students.If the teacher doesn't talk enough, you feel like you don't learn enough. Same with a lot of parents today. If they send their students to a class, if the students were doing things rather than the teacher doing all talking, then they have the feeling of they don't get good value for the money. I'm not learning enough.Ross: I like your point there about the it's maybe not the 18 years that your teacher was a student...Karin: Or 2,000 hours.Ross: Yeah, or 2,000 or 20,000 hours. It's actually maybe the last 1,000 years of the culture or something that's affecting how that person teaches. There's also something in there about the culture of the school that you're in, I think as well.There's a great chapter, I think it's at the end of Jack Richards book called "Beyond Training." He has students who did his [inaudible 7:54] course. All these teachers, after doing the [inaudible 7:58] course, are really brought into communicative language teaching, task‑based learning.Then they go into these public schools in Hong Kong. The reality in those schools is very different from the context often surrounding communicative language teaching where in those public schools in Hong Kong, there's 60 students in a class. You're next towards others classes, so you can't be too noisy. Your manager expects you to do X, Y and Z in the class.It's amazing how over the course of a year, you look at these teachers, some of them just go 180 degrees, and go from being like, "Oh, I want my students to communicate. I'm going to speak English in the class. I'm going to make sure students enjoy what they're doing," to being authoritarian, grammar‑based and doing everything in the students' first language.Karin: We need to raise teachers' awareness on their own teaching beliefs because that's how they make the choices in lesson planning and delivery, but we often miss out the step of how they can adapt all those methodologies into their own teaching context.I had a similar experience of training some public school teachers where we talked about communicative language teaching, group work, student feedback and things like that. They were like, "With our learning aims, and the class size and our schedule, it's really hard to do that. We literally don't have the time for that, or if we get the students do that, they won't be able to pass all the exams."Ross: Another point here is teachers' own experiences of learning a language. This is something that I personally find really interesting, because I've learned my second language without going to any classes and without studying.I think I have a very laissez‑faire attitude towards the teaching of grammar, really anything overly formal in the classroom, because I know that's not how I learned. Implicitly, I think that's not important, but I obviously that's not true for everyone.Karin: Personally, I like the language awareness approach because my experience with the language learning is that when I was learning English in high school, I never really enjoyed the grammar lessons where we learned the rules. I liked to engage myself with different sources of the language.In the last two years, suddenly, I just became aware of the rules and I see how it works. I was like, "This is amazing." Now I like to lead my students to be aware of how language or how English works rather than giving them the rules. For example, one day, they were asking me about a brand sly. Like, "How can I say this?"Instead of teaching them the pronunciation, I said, "Well, how do you say fly?" They were able to say that. Then I said, "Now take another look at this. How do you say this?" She was like, "Oh, sly. I know how to do it. Now I'm going to find more examples of that." I think that sense of achievement as a learner, and for me as a teacher, was really important.Ross: Obviously, this end up being very personal. One of the dangers with this is that there's always some learners that will learn regardless of what you do. You could have something which is definitely not the best method of teaching a language.Let's say audio linguicism or grammar translation. There will be still have been some people that learned like that. They can then use that to justify, "Well, it worked for me, so I'm going to use it for everyone else."Karin: Our teachers didn't talk about why they did the things with us. Now, we can get the students to have conversations with us on how we learned the language, how we teach the lessons, and why we did them and how they can discover the ways that work for them the best.Ross: The last one we had here was something that affects how teachers teach is their personalities. I'm sure you've heard this before. I definitely have. Saying teachers are born instead of made, or often there's people saying, "So and so, they're just a natural teacher."That's something that really used to annoy me a lot, because to me, it just seems as devalue all the professional development, qualifications, knowledge, and research. No one would ever say that about a doctor or a scientist. At the same time, I think there are a lot of personality traits...Karin: There are.Ross: Yeah.Karin: Yeah. For example, very often when you ask someone, "What makes a good teacher?" Instead of saying all those skills, people say they need to be patient, they need to care for their learners and things like that. Those were all personality traits.Ross: Absolutely. To me, it also reminds me of the nature/nurture debate in psychology. Are we who we are because of our genes, or are we who we are because of our upbringing? Just like that with teachers. Are teachers who they are because of their personality and who they are as a person, or is it their training and professional knowledge?Obviously, I guess it is both, but it's really interesting to think and reflect on what are your own personality traits that you bring into the classroom, and how do you use them. Overall, it's a wrap‑up. I think it's useful for us to think about who we are and how all these different factors affect how we teach and what our teaching decisions are and what our beliefs are.Karin: For me, I think it's the most important thing now as a teacher that we are constantly aware of why we're making the decisions we make.Ross: Good. Karin, thanks so much for joining us.Karin: Thanks for having me.Ross: Great. See you next time, everyone. Goodbye.Karin: Bye.

Dr. Venus’s brother, Tory, went home to be with the Lord this Christmas Eve. She wanted to have a conversation this week to discuss grief, coping, and how it looks different for everyone. Needless to say, they are each coping with the loss of their beloved family member in the best and healthiest way they can at this time, but how? Tune in this week for an intimate and authentic conversation about strategies to cope, accept, nurture, and ultimately have faith after the death of a loved one due to COVID-19.    Key Takeaways: [1:13] Dr. Venus shares the heartbreaking news that her brother Tory passed away from COVID-19. She discusses how it’s important to never judge a person by how they grieve. The process is different for everyone.  [3:28] When someone you care about is grieving, of course you can send your sympathy and love, but don’t expect a back and forth conversation. They could not have the energy or bandwidth beyond seeing your message and acknowledging it.   [5:02] Don’t tell someone that is grieving what to do, or what not to do. It’s a very personal process.  [5:50] For Dr. Venus, a sense of normalcy and stability is what feels best. Keeping a routine helps her stay grounded during an intense time of grief.  [9:05] The Five Stages of Grief are:  Denial Anger Bargaining Depression Acceptance [12:50] If you are the one grieving right now, it’s okay not to talk to people if you feel numb. However you want to show up in the world is okay.  [21:19] We can still be heartbroken and grief stricken but believe that God has an ultimate master plan and have Faith in surrendering to the bigger plan. It doesn’t mean you don’t mourn, but that you set aside your pride and ego to give everything over to God.  [23:50] We have opinions and preferences about how things should be, but we don’t have a big enough view to understand God’s plan.  [25:38] Find things you can spiritually connect with and grieve through. For Dr. Venus, writing and dancing are extremely healing and powerful.  [28:58] Give others (or yourself) the grace of knowing that it’s okay to have delayed reactions in grief. That doesn’t mean you are suppressing, it comes out when it does.    [29:50] Tory was a great brother, father, son, nephew, uncle, friend, provider, and so much more. He was funny, brilliant, entrepreneurial, loving, and kind, and Dr. Venus will always adore him.  [32:49] A large part of COVID is preparation. Take it seriously and do your part.    Quotes:  “The things that have crushed me have turned into cathedrals.”  “For all of us that have lost someone to COVID, know that you are loved, and you are not alone.”    Mentioned: Dr. Venus Website | Facebook | Twitter | Instagram  “Hot Mess Millionaire” Amazon Pilot  ”Hot Mess Millionaire” Complete Series (https://www.youtube.com/c/DrVenusOpalReese) Join the conversation! Hot Mess Millionaire Facebook Group Free Gift When You Join The Truth Tribe The Black Woman Millionaire Hot Mess Edition   RESOURCES   On Grief and Grieving: Finding the Meaning of Grief Through the Five Stages of Loss by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross   Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief by David Kessler On Death and Dying: What the Dying Have to Teach Doctors, Nurses, Clergy and Their Own Families by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross It's OK That You're Not OK (Meeting Grief and Loss in a Culture That Doesn't Understand) by Megan Devine Grief One Day at a Time: 365 Meditations to Help You Heal After Loss COVID-19 may have arrived in US by December 2019     

1. flirt with someone 跟某人调情 这集的名字里包含的一个词flirting.打情骂俏, 调情。其实这个的翻译有一些问题，因为在中文里调情是有贬义的，事实上flirt 是个中性词。对异性的搭讪，有时候异性间的玩笑都可以是flirt的一种。flirt with someone 跟某人打情骂俏Ross: What the hell was that?!Chandler: What?Ross: The flirting! Aren't you supposed to be going out with, I don't know hmm, let's say my sister?!Chandler: I was not flirting.Ross: It was totally flirting. "Somebody got a haircut "Chandler: Okay first of all, the impression, uncanny. And second, that was not flirting, that was just casual conversation between two people. That is all.Ross: Yeah, right.Chandler: You wanna see flirting? I'll show you flirting. (Starts to move towards Ross.)Ross: (backing away) I'm good.2. Law and Order 法律与秩序 在本集中Joey将要客串一部电视剧Law and Order 《法律与秩序》。法律与秩序是一部比较真实反映美国法律制度的电视连续剧，从1990年开播以来，每周一集，热播至今，是美国第二长命电视剧。故事大部分取材自真实的案例，在美国收视率很高，和《老友记》一样是NBC的王牌剧之一。Rachel: I am so proud of Joey, I can't believe he's going to be on Law & Order!Phoebe: I know. But don't you think that it should be called Order and Law?Rachel: No because first they arrest the guy and then they try him.Phoebe: Don't get me started on that3. Tri State Area 纽约都会区 Chandler说Monica和所有Tri State Area的人都flirt. Tri state area 指纽约市和纽约州，新泽西，康涅狄克州交界处，这三个州靠近纽约，所以说到Tri state area指的就是纽约地区, 也叫纽约都会区。Chandler: So uh Monica, do you, do you like the Law & Order?Monica: Yeah, it's good.Chandler: See, I'm finding out all this stuff about you today, like you like the Law & Order and that you flirted with every guy in the Tri-State area!Monica: Chandler! Okay, let me get this straight, it's okay for you to flirt, but not for me.Chandler: Oh, I'm so glad we cleared that up. Look, I'm sorry, some things are different for men and for women.Monica: Go on, teach me something about men and women.Chandler: Okay, I've already taught you so much already, but whatever. See when you flirt with a guy you think, "I'm just flirting, no big deal." But the guy is thinking, "Finally! Somebody who wants to sleep with me!"Monica: No way!Chandler: It's true.Monica: Well that's pathetic!Chandler: Again true.Monica: And this goes for all guys?Chandler: All guys that are awake. Then we go to sleep and then all the guys from the other end of the world wake up and behave the exact same way.4. gas 天然气，汽油 Pizza delivery girl说我们的披萨是gas做的，在这里gas 指天然气，瓦斯。美国口语里gas是汽油。在俚语gas当中还有空谈，吹牛的意思。Ross: (He opens the door while faking a laugh.) Hey! Oh, we-we can't keep eating like this. Caitlin: It's uh, $12.50.Ross: Okay, (gets the money) so, do you make the pizzas in one of those uh, wood-burning ovens?Caitlin: No actually umm, I think that they're umm, gas.Ross: Gas? Wow! Intense.Chandler: (To Monica) If this is the way all the Gellers flirt, we don't have a problem.5. Pope 教皇 Pope 天主教的教皇，教宗。这个词源于希腊语，本意是父亲。Joey说看到Pope来分散奶奶的注意力。现任教皇是方济各。Joey: (entering) Hey! Is the show still on?Chandler: Almost over man.Joey: (says hi to his grandma) Look! Oh! (Pointing out the window.) Is that the Pope?! (Chandler and his grandma turn to look and Joey slips a tape into the VCR.)Chandler: Why am I looking?

1. Mad Libs 字谜游戏 Joey在床底下藏了很多东西包括Mad Libs。Mad Libs是美国孩子们或是Party上的一种群体字谜游戏。Mad libs的书上通常是一些故事，但其中的一些关键词被横线代替，只是告诉你要填名词或动词（有点儿像四级考试的十五选十），不同的人会有不同的答案，最后大家集体编出了这个故事，通常是很好笑的结尾。Monica: Hey, Joey's ass! What are you doing?Joey: (holding a box) Well, remember when they got in that big fight and broke up and we were all stuck in her with no food or anything? Well, when Ross said Rachel at the wedding, I figured it was gonna happen again, so I hid this in here.Monica: Ooh, candy bars, crossword puzzles…Phoebe: Ooh, Madlibs, mine! (Grabs it.)Chandler: Condoms?Joey: You don't know how long we're gonna be in here! We may have to repopulate the Earth.Chandler: And condoms are the way to do that?2. boil down to 浓缩为，归结为 Ross向Rachel解释处境的时候用到了一个短语boil down to boil down to, 本意是煮浓为，浓缩为，也可以理解成归结为。Ross: Anyway it-it kinda-it all boils down to this, the last time I talked to Emily…Rachel: (interrupting) Oh my God! My dog died!Ross: What?!Rachel: Oh my God, Le Poo, our dog!Ross: Le Poo's still alive?!Rachel: Oh God, it says he was hit by an ice cream truck and dragged for nine-(turns over the note)-teen blocks. Oh. (They all come out from Monica's bedroom) Oh my God.3. take for a ride 欺骗某人 Monica在换房间的时候用到了take for a ride说饭店的人想占他们便宜。这个短语三层含义:1. 带某人去兜风 2.欺骗某人 3. 将某人绑架并杀掉。这里是第二个意思。Monica: (To Chandler) Excuse me, umm, can I talk to you over here for just a second?Chandler: Uh-huh. (He doesn't take his eyes off the TV.)Monica: Chandler!Chandler: (turning to face her) Yeah.Monica: Look, these clowns are trying to take us for a ride and I'm not gonna let 'em! And we're not a couple of suckers!Chandler: I hear ya, Mugsy! But look, all these rooms are fine okay? Can you just pick one so I can watch-(realizes)-have a perfect, magical weekend together with you.4. speak ill of sb 诋毁某人 Chandler对Monica在争论他们浪漫周末被毁的原因时说Do not speak ill of the dead. Speak ill of sb 说某人的坏话，诋毁某人Monica: Hey, don't blame me for wigging tonight!Chandler: Oh, who should I blame? The nice bell man who had to drag out luggage to 10 different rooms?Monica: I don't know, how about the idiot who thought he could drive from Albany to Canada on a half a tank of gas!Chandler: Do not speak ill of the dead.5. storm out 愤怒离去 得知Ross决定同意Emily的提议，从此不和自己见面以后，Rachel气愤地 storm outstorm out 愤怒离去，摔门而去Ross: Hey. Rachel, I-I-I've been wanting to tell you something for a while now and I really, I just have to get it out.Rachel: Okay, what's up?Ross: Okay, y'know how you told me I should do whatever it takes to fix my marriage?Rachel: Yeah, I told you to give Emily whatever she wants.Ross: And while that was good advice, you should know that what-what she wants…Rachel: Yeah?Ross: …is for me not to see you anymore.Rachel: That's crazy! You can't do that! What are you going to tell her? (Pause) (Realizes) Oh God. Ohh, you already agreed to this, haven't you?Ross: It's awful I know, I mean, I feel terrible but I have to do this if I want my marriage to work. And I do, I have to make this marriage work. I have too. But the good thing is we can still see each other until she gets here.Rachel: Ohh! Lucky me! Oh my God! That is good news, Ross! I think that's the best news I've heard since Le Poo died!Ross: You have no idea what a nightmare this has been. This is so hard.Rachel: Oh yeah, really? Is it Ross? Yeah? Okay, well let me make this a just a little bit easier for you.Ross: What are you doing?Rachel: Storming out!Ross: Rachel, this is your apartment.Rachel: Yeah, well that's how mad I am!!6. Donald Trump 懂王川普 在本集中使MC恋情曝光给Joey的一个关键人物就是他们外出幽会偶遇的美国地产之王Donanld Trump. 在电视播出时人们对此君的认识还只是美国富豪，地产之王，棒球队老板，但谁能想到十年后以他为中心制作的真人秀节目《飞黄腾达》成为收视奇迹呢？而谁又能想到18年后他竟然成了美国的总统呢？Donald名言I made more money in bad times than in good times.Phoebe: Hey!Monica: Hey!Phoebe: Oh hey, Monica, I heard you saw Donald Trump at your convention.Monica: Yeah, I saw him waiting for an elevator.7. woof 狗吠，低声说话 Joey听到Chandler和Monica在走廊里说话问道What are you guys woofing about? Woof本意是狗的低吠声，算是个象声词。在这里指低声说话。Monica: Okay, I'd like to know how much the room was because I'd like to pay my half.Chandler: Okay, fine, $300.Monica: 300 dollars?!Chandler: Yeah, just think of it as $25 per room!Monica: Urghh!!Joey: (sticking his head out the door) What are you guys woofing about?Monica: Chandler stole a twenty from my purse!Joey: Nooooo!!! Y'know what? Now that I think about it, I constantly find myself without twenties and you always have lots!8. phase out 逐步淘汰 Monica前男友曾经是Chandler的室友，分手后被大家phased outphase out 逐步淘汰Chandler: Kip, my old roommate, y'know we all used to hang out together.Joey: Oh, that poor bastard.Rachel: See? Yeah, you told me the story. He and Monica dated when they broke up they couldn't even be in the same room together and you all promised that you would stay his friend and what happened? He got phased out!Monica: You're not gonna be phased out!

1. get out of one's hair 不再烦扰某人 Monic在卧室等Chandler结果让Rachel撞见，只好说在约会同事。Rachel 为了不破坏Monica的好事，说I will get out of your hair. get out of one's hair 不再烦扰某人 get in one's hair 烦扰某人Monica: (In a sexy voice) Come in. I've been waiting for you.Rachel: Hi! I just wanna-(sees Monica)-Ahhh!!! Oh my God! (She runs out in horror.) Oh my God!Monica: (pulling on a robe) Okay, I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I-I-I was um, I was taking a nap.Rachel: Since when do take naps in that position. Oh God Monica, tell me you were waiting for a guy! Please tell me you were waiting for a guy!Monica: Yes. Yes, I was. A guy. From work. (Thinks) I'm seeing a guy from work! Ha!Rachel: (Gasps) That cute waiter guy from your restaurant, the one that looks like a non-threatening Ray Liotta?Monica: Uh-huh, that one!Rachel: Y'know what, just give me a second and I'll be out of your hair. I'm just gonna grab a jacket. When I get back, I want every little detail. 2. PBS 美国公共电视网 这集的题目叫Phoebe Hates PBS. PBS，全称 Public Broadcasting Service，( 美国公共电视网，也称公共广播协会或美国公共电视台，是美国的一个公共电视机构，由354个加盟电视台组成，成立于1969年，总部位于维吉尼亚州阿灵顿；旨在运用非商业电视、因特网与其它媒体所提供的高质量节目与教育服务，去丰富人民生活，并达到媒体告知(inform)、启发(inspire)与愉悦(delight)的社会责任。但Phoebe却痛恨PBS,所以显得很可笑。Monica: Vomit tux? Who vomited on—y'know what, what you up to Joe?Joey: Well, I'm doing this telethon thing on TV and my agent got me a job as co-host!Monica: Oh that's great!Joey: A little uh, good deed for PBS and a little TV exposure, now that's the kind of math Joey likes to do!Phoebe: Ugh, PBS!Monica: What's wrong with PBS?Phoebe: Ugh, what's right with them?3. burst the bubble 美梦幻灭 Phoebe和Joey辩论世界上到底有没有无私的行为，Joey说一切行为都是自私的，对Phoebe说Sorry to burst the bubble. Burst the bubble 戳穿气泡引申为使美梦幻灭Joey: Look, there's no unselfish good deeds, sorry.Phoebe: Yes there are! There are totally good deeds that are selfless.Joey: Well, may I ask for one example?Phoebe: Yeah, it's… Y'know there's—no you may not!Joey: That's because all people are selfish.Phoebe: Are you calling me selfish?!Joey: Are you calling you people? Yeah, well sorry to burst that bubble, Pheebs, but selfless good deeds don't exist. Okay? And you the deal on Santa Clause right?Phoebe: I'm gonna find a selfless good dead. I'm gonna beat you, you evil genius.4. lucky dog 幸运儿 Chandler说Monica lucky dog. Lucky dog 是幸运儿。还有那些狗在俚语中大放异彩呢。Sad dog 放荡的人dead dog 无用的东西jolly dog 有趣的人bull dog 难以相处的人 top dog 头领。Rachel: So Chandler, have you heard about Monica's secret boyfriend?Chandler: Uhh, yeah. She uh, she uh, she uh might've mentioned him.Rachel: So Mon, when are we gonna meet this new secret waiter man?Monica: Ohh, he's really shy. I-I don't think he's up to meeting everyone yet.Chandler: Yeah, I don't think he's up to meeting everyone yet.Rachel: I don't care! I wanna meet this guy who's the best sex she ever had!Chandler: Really?! That's what you heard? (To Monica) You said that?Monica: I might've said that. (Chandler laughs.) Why is that funny?Chandler: Because I'm very happy for him! (To Monica) And you, you lucky dog!5. patch up 修补，平息 当Ross 冒出劝前妻带着儿子搬到伦敦的念头的时候，Monica说 I am sure your ex-wife is more than happy to move to another country so you can patch things up with your new wife!Patch up 修补，平息She has gone on holiday with her husband to try to patch up their marriage. 她跟她丈夫度假去了，以补救他们的婚姻。Ross: (entering) Hi!Monica: Hey!Ross: Well, Emily's willing to work on the relationship.Chandler: Yes!Monica: That's great!Ross: In London!Monica: What?!Ross: She wants me to move to London.Monica: But you live here! (Ross rolls his eyes.) You know that.Rachel: What-what-what are you gonna do?Ross: I bet if I talk to Carol and Susan I can convince them to move to London with Ben.Monica: Yeah, I'm sure your ex-wife will be more than happy to move to another country so you can patch things up with your new wife.Ross: It could happen.6. Cirque Duo Soleil 太阳马戏团 在PBS的节目中提到了Cirque Du Soleil大名鼎鼎的加拿大太阳马戏团。1984年，一群加拿大魁北克省的街头流浪艺人组成了一个马戏团。在近十年的时间里这个马戏团创作了十几台风格各异的大型主题杂技晚会，在全世界巡回演出，将欢乐带给了数以亿计的观众，成为了如今闻名全球的太阳马戏团。7. make a pledge 做出承诺，登记认捐 主持人号召大家打电话进来call in pledge,也提到take pledge. Make a pledge 本意是做出承诺，也可以是登记确认募捐的意思。Joey: Hey, excuse me, would you mind switching with me?PBS Volunteer: Hey, no way, I'm in the shot man.Joey: Come on man! You've been here all day!PBS Volunteer: Yeah, I-I'm taking pledges here, eh?Stage Director: We're on in 3, 2, (points to Gary Collins.)Gary Collins: Welcome back to our fall telethon. Now if you've been enjoying the performance of Cirque Du Soleil, and you'd like to see more of the same kind of programming, it's very simple. All you have to do is call in your pledge and at that time tell the operator, one of our volunteers, what kind of programming you'd like to…

1. liquor up 狂饮一番 Chandler 说Monica对他的夸奖是liquor up. 意思是说你喝多了才这么说的。Liquor up 狂饮一番Monica: You look cute in bubbles.Chandler: Ehh, you're just liquored up2. outrun sb 比某人跑得快 Ross跟丢了Emily，Chandler讥讽道I can't believe she outran you. Outrun sb 比某人跑得快。Out 这里做前缀表示超过，类似词 outshine sb 使某人相形见绌，outrank sb比某人级别高，例子太多了。Phoebe: So you still hadn't heard from Emily?Ross: No, not since I lost her at the airport.Chandler: I can't believe she can out run you man!3. braid 辫子 Monica说Rachel的braid很好看，我们就来说说常见的辫子Braids 编成的小细辫Ponytail 这个容易，就是马尾辫Pigtail 只要不是马尾的辫子都可以叫pigtail, 包括两个辫子Monica: Rach, that's great! It's so good that you had a good time in Greece! Nice braids. Rachel: What?! I didn't have a good time in Greece! Ross abandoned me! Okay, I couldn't get a plane out, so I had to stay in their honeymoon suite with people coming up to me all the time going, "Oh, Mrs. Geller, why are you crying?" I mean, it was sooo humiliating. I felt like such an idiot! I mean, it's all my fault! And you know why, because I make very bad decisions.Chandler: Oh that's not true.Rachel: Yes it is! It is true! I went, I went after Ross in stupid London.Phoebe: London is stupid! Stupid!4. bum sb out 使某人烦恼 听到朋友们老是聊伦敦的事情，Phoebe不高兴了说bum me out 烦死我了。 bum sb out 使某人烦恼，使某人恼火Phoebe: (entering) Hey!Rachel: Hey!Joey: Hey, Pheebs!Monica: We got out pictures back from London. (Shows her one.) Here's all of us at the Tower of London.Phoebe: (Grabs the pictures) Oh! Here we all are! Yeah, there's Ross and Joey and you and me. (She picks up a magic marker and draws herself in. Monica can't watch.)Chandler: All right, y'know what, we've been talking about London too much haven't we?Phoebe: No. I'm sorry. It's just 'cause I couldn't be there. 'Cause all I ever get to do now is pregnant stuff, it just bums me out.All: Sorry.5. catch a break 休息一下，交好运 Ross受到打击想去淋雨，可是外面并没有下雨，于是说I can't catch a break! catch a break 本意是休息一下而这里catch a break 意思是交好运Rachel: Umm, hi!Ross: Hi.Rachel: Is Monica around? I-I have to ask her something.Ross: She's doing her laundry.Rachel: What's that? (Points to the box.)Ross: It came in the mail today, it's uh, 72 long-stemmed red roses, one for each day that I've known and loved Emily, cut up into mulch!Rachel: Oh, honey that's awful.Ross: Oh, it's not so bad. Monica's gonna make potpourri! I think I'm gonna go wander out in the rain for a while.Rachel: But, it's not raining.Ross: I can't catch a break!6. call the shots 说了算 Rachel把自己感情生活的决定权交给了Monica，因此Monica在Rachel遇到问题时说I am calling the shots. call the shots 发号施令，说了算。 Monica: What is the matter with you?! Do you want to fall into the trap? Do you want to fall into the trap?!Rachel: Ohh! You did not drop any socks!Monica: I just ran into Dave and he told me that you blew him off! I mean, you listen to me! Now, I'm calling the shots! I say you leave Ross alone and go get Dave! What the hell were you trying to do?Rachel: Well, ultimately, I was trying y'know, I-I wanted…tell him y'know, that I'm still in love with him.Monica: (Gasps) What?!! You cannot tell him that!!Rachel: Why? Why not?! People love to hear that!Monica: I make the decisions, and I say no.Rachel: Well, y'know what, no, you do not make my decisions because y'know what, you're fired.Monica: You can't fire me. I make your decisions and I say, "I'm not fired!" Ha!Rachel: Well… 7. roll the bones 瞎聊，闲扯 老友们要一起去Atlantic City，和拉斯维加斯齐名的赌场城市。大家喊着let's roll some bones. Roll some bones就是掷骰子赌钱相当于roll the dice，roll the bones还有吹牛,闲扯的意思Ross: Okay, let's go!Chandler: Atlantic City!Phoebe: Atlantic City, baby! Let's roll some bones! Hey Joey, high-five for rolling bones!

I speak with Ekitzel Wood about online marketing and discrimination in teacher recruitment. Ekitzel tells us how our Facebook information change the job advertisements that we see. We also talk about racism in teacher recruitment and why many schools present a ‘white’ image of their teachers to their customers. Ross Thorburn: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. As you know, usually on the podcast, we speak to people with similar backgrounds to myself and Tracy, but today, we've got someone from a very different background. That person is Ekitzel Wood.She specializes in online branding and marketing. She's worked and consulted for many education companies in China about how to improve their brand and find more teachers.In our conversation, Ekitzel and I talk about marketing messages that work for different groups. On the second half of the podcast, we discuss some of the dangers of online marketing and how this can make discrimination easier.If you've ever searched for anything in Google, or you've liked a page on Facebook, this affects what job opportunities you see in the future. Even if you don't, this affects who your colleagues are and will be. Enjoy the podcast!Online Marketing in EducationRoss: Hi, Ekitzel Wood. Thanks so much for coming on.Ekitzel Wood: Thanks for having me. [laughs]Ross: Do you mind telling us just very quickly a bit about what you do? You're in education marketing, but you market staff to teachers, right?Ekitzel: Right. I got my start in social media working for a lot of different companies. I start to quickly specialize in Chinese companies that wanted to have a greater influence and to manage their brands better in North America. Eventually, that parlayed into a very fast‑growing education sector in regards to how to manage their digital brand, what they want to portray themselves as online.Ross: Maybe that's a good place to start. Like if you're a teacher and you've seen some online social media for school, how would you go about researching that school and finding out, is it legit?Ekitzel: Coming from the other end is I pose that a lot to schools when they approach me. What type of person do you want to attract? Specifically, one issue for a lot of Chinese English‑training centers is they want to attract more female talent.This is just a general issue in education globally is that within the domestic markets of any country, education is typically about 65/35 female‑skewed, but once you expatriate that, it flips.How do you attract or how do you appeal to female educators, or what type of messaging will most resonate with them, especially in terms of...There's a lot of messaging where you focus on having an adventure or trying something new, having access to different areas of the world, meeting new people.For women, it doesn't work as well unless they're between the ages of 22 and 26. That's the sweet spot for women. For men, that can work up until the age of 39 typically, actually. They're very different, the way they behave.Ross: What marketing then works for women, say then, over the age of 26 in education or some marketing things that resonate with that group?Ekitzel: There's two different types of tracks that you can take based on the research that I've done with a few different places.One is a new‑beginning style track where it's like, "Are you feeling all right?" or "Have you been teaching the same lesson plans for 10 years now? Is it getting tiresome? Do you want to take those skills and then adapt them for new culture, learn about a new place?"It's about self‑enrichment and about taking your experience and moving it on to something that will challenge you in a new way but won't be too challenging, if that makes sense. So making sure that you apply the side career advancement opportunities that they might have.If your English training center focus on the fact that you might give them the opportunity to write books or develop curriculum or learn about administration, mentoring, especially, is something that really resonates with a lot of...I know North American long‑term professional teachers that are over the age...They're in their like 20s.It's a difficult time even to our trained teachers in North America because the attrition rate is quite high. Most teachers in the United States, they leave a teaching profession within five years of starting. The late 20s is a very good time to attract those teachers, to give them an opportunity...Ross: This is because that a lot of them are thinking they've had it with education at that point. They're already thinking about doing something different, anyway. In some ways, that problem in the domestic market creates an opportunity, that does it?Ekitzel: Exactly. Not to sound traditional about it, but it is something that, in terms of market research, has proven true, that at that age, if that person is already married, it's very unlikely that they're going to relocate. If that person isn't married, they want to be or they're thinking about it.It's about 50/50, actually. That's a group that wants...I've tried marketing too with a couple other places, and it's proven not very profitable.Ross: What are some groups that are maybe the easiest ones to attract, the ones with the highest return on investment for ads?Ekitzel: Highest return on investment are definitely 23 to 26, male, college educated, one and a half years of spotty experience. They haven't had a solid job after graduating from college. That was a lot easier to do in 2010 to 2012 when the economy wasn't so good in North America. Now, it's not as big of an issue. It's getting harder to recruit that type of talent.Discrimination in online EducationRoss: A lot of what we talked about so far that has been marketing to specific groups. I want to ask you, if I was a language school owner and I believed that my customers really liked white, blonde teachers aged 28 to 34, is it now impossible for me to engineer something like that where I can deliberately try to attract those people?Ekitzel: Unfortunately, yes.Ross: Wow!Ekitzel: With Facebook, the way it works when you make an ad is you select an audience. That audience is divided by psychographics, which are preferences like pages you follow, interests you see list on Facebook.This is information you volunteer yourself. You volunteer that information also by liking certain types of content and sharing certain items. That's who you're going to target, so cannot be done by race. It's difficult, but there are ways obviously to do that. Not many white people follow BET, for instance.Ross: I've done, before, research into hiring practices. It turns out in my research, at least in China, if you have a white photo at the top of your resume, you're 50 percent more likely to get a job than if you have black photo at the top.That's almost somehow even scarier, that now, it's possible to almost cut out the people that you don't want based on age, ethnicity, interest, and everything. They don't even see the advert in the first place. Of course, like you say, you would hope that language schools eventually would discover that that's not what makes a successful school.But equally, if the only people that you're going to hire are white, blonde, Aryan people, maybe you never actually find out, because you never have those people from other age groups and ethnicities. You never find out that those people could be equally successful.Ekitzel: Yes, I know. Not just the companies I've worked for but the entire industry is guilty of this, where they over‑recruit online teachers and especially highly‑qualified teachers from urban areas who are not white. They will keep them active just to the point that they won't leave, but they do deprioritize them in terms of their marketplace.They have backend ways of tagging them that aren't obvious to the outside observer or to them even as a teacher in their platform. If you say, "I want a teacher who has a specialty in math because I need to improve my English master, engineering vocabulary," they'll search these two terms. Then the first page or two of options will only be these idealized profile.Ross: I never understand why that happens. I always thought that the great thing about online teaching was that...Ekitzel: Is the equalizer?Ross: Yeah, right? It gives students the opportunity to...You can choose whoever you want. If you are racist, or sexist, or whatever, fine.Ekitzel: That's your choice.Ross: You can go and choose the Aryan teacher if you want, but if you want to choose the person with the highest star rating based on feedback or the best qualifications, you can search for it however you like.Ekitzel: The market, especially, in China is highly competitive. The acquisition cost for students is very high. They're doing anything and everything they can to...The thing is, even for them, they do lots of market research where they have quality and experience are the two main drivers for student acquisition. That's what they really care about.However, unfortunately, behavioral data says something else. I don't know if that's a catch‑22, because a lot of these platforms prioritize towards this idealized image. Are they only selecting those because that's what they're being shown first, like in the first search page, or is that because that's really what they, themselves, prefer?Ross: It could be a self‑fulfilling prophecy where you choose what you show.Ekitzel: Right. Because the market is so fierce, no one that I worked with or consulted with has been willing to take that risk.Ross: If you are a teacher and you maybe already worked on one of these platforms or you're just an employee of one of them, what's a way that you can find out and investigate to what extent your company is promoting an idealized ethnic...?Ekitzel: Discriminatory...?Ross: Yes, discriminative and profile for teachers.Ekitzel: If you work inside of an online teaching platform and you have access to the students' site, how students use the portal or parents use the portal, do some testing. I think you'll find pretty quickly that even when you search very generalized terms, you'll see very little diversity in the first 20 results.Every company I worked for, that's one of the first concerns I bring up. You can be very successful recruiting teachers. That's your main goal, is quantity of teachers and quality of teachers.However, I refuse to help you with that unless you start marketing domestically, that you provide teachers that are of non‑white backgrounds, that your billboards, that your online advertising doesn't just have a white face on it, and that has a variety of faces.Once people start searching for your company and your information, they're not just going to see what's available in United States. They're going to see what's also being promoted in China. They're going to see pictures of subway adverts.If they see only white people in those subway adverts, they're going to say, "Well, you're only selling white people to Chinese people, so what's you're saying you're a diverse welcoming country?" That's hypocritical.Ross: I wonder what the reason is, what's the underlying thing that causes this racism. On discrimination, I've read before about how people of color were discriminated against in customer‑facing jobs, but in management‑facing jobs basically suffered almost no discrimination.The background to that seem to be that companies were worried that their customers were racist. They prefer to have a white person or beautiful person or whatever, but it was like the recruiters, themselves, didn't actually have a preference.What I wonder is here, is it people in these companies actually feel that way, or they just worry that this is how our customers feel? Do they think like, "I really believe white teachers are better," or is it like, "I really think that our customers are kind of racist. I'm going to discriminate on their behalf"?Ekitzel: I think it's a little bit of both. I'm a big follower of Brené Brown. [laughs] She's a social worker, just had talks and things like that. She tells the story about her own experience where she was waiting on the line at a bank. There's a teller. He was black.There's an older white lady in front of her. She was getting really upset. Something was wrong, and she's like, "I want to speak to your manager." Brené was behind of this awful lady. He's like, "OK," so he brings the manager who also happens to be a black woman. She's like "No, I need another manager."Ross: Wow.Ekitzel: She was so angry. She got upset. She's just like, "That lady was crazy." The teller was beyond professional. He's just like, "She's just worried about her money, and she's afraid. When people are afraid, they don't make the best choices."I think, especially in terms of business development, in a hypercompetitive market of English education in China, they know that it doesn't really matter, but they're afraid because they might lose one or two families. That, to them, could be a big difference in their profit margin.Everyone's trying to sell to the lowest common denominator. They think that if this will change five percent of the people's minds if they see a black person there because it spooks them or it scares them, then they'll make this safer "choice."Ross: It's better to do something that's going to appease the racist five percent, because for the other 95 percent, they don't care.Ekitzel: They don't care. Unless they are the ones not being represented, they'll just become more complacent what the imagery they're seeing.Ross: Thanks so much for coming along.Ekitzel: Oh, thank you.Ross: Do you have a blog, or a Twitter handle, or something that you'd recommend people to go to?Ekitzel: I don't have a lot of professional social media for myself.Ross: That's ironic.Ekitzel: You're welcome to follow me on Twitter. It's @ekitzel. That's my Twitter handle.Ross: Awesome. Thanks again.Ekitzel: Thank you.Ross: Cool.

We speak Trinity College London CertTESOL and DipTESOL course director with Felicity Pyatt about what to do when that happens. How to decide to ‘fail’ a trainee, how to break the news and how to help trainees bounce back.Tracy Yu: Hello, everyone. Welcome to our podcast and today we have our guest, Fifi.Felicity Pyatt: Hello, it's me.Ross Thorburn: Welcome back.Felicity: Thank you.Ross: So Fifi, what are we talking about? [laughs]Felicity: Today, I thought it would be cool to talk about the best way to fail people. I've run CertTESOL courses in DipTESOL courses, and failure is something that we have to negotiate very carefully. A really delicate thing to manage when teachers don't pass their classes.Ross. Yeah, right. I think there's something that we don't talk about very much, right? Like how to deal with failure? I googled it, on the way here, in preparation [laughs] and couldn't find anything on how to fail a trainee. You had a story, right?Felicity: Yeah, this was very early on when I just started working on DipTESOL observations, which is a bit more challenging. The thing about the Dip is that there are four mass parts criteria, I think you talked about this with Dedrick a little bit, a few podcasts ago.I had a teacher on there who had lots of experience teaching in public school, back in her home country, and she had a lot of ideas about what worked very well. She had a masters, and she had a lot of research to back up her idea that contexts have no place in a classroom.Ross: Right. Because setting a realistic context is one of the things that you have to do in order to pass those classes, right?Felicity: Yeah, it's a really important part of the class. To have a trainee who...not that she couldn't do it, but she just refused to accept that she had to do it. I started to really dread having to observe her because I knew that it was going to be a borderline pass or failure, and I would have to give her that feedback and have that fight with her about the whole situation.But she ended up passing, overall, so that's good.Ross: You didn't want to tell her if she failed?Felicity: [laughs] No, I was scared. I think I managed to approach it from the point of view of being like an assessor, so it wasn't my opinion. It was talking about the Trinity qualification guideline so this is something you must pass to get a Trinity DipTESOL.It's not the only way to teach. They're not saying that it's the perfect thing to do. They're just saying that that's what they want a Trinity qualified teacher to be able to do.Ross: My worst example of this was more management‑related, but it was me sitting in with a colleague on firing someone, basically in their first week, and that went disastrously wrong. This person basically trashing a classroom in a school full of students, in peak time. It was an absolute disaster.I think before that, I never put too much thought into that like how do you handle that process and realizing when it goes wrong it goes spectacularly.Felicity: Yeah, absolutely.Ross: OK, so Fifi's got some top tips on how to fail people and hopefully, we can also talk about, not just from the trainer's perspective on how to fail people, but maybe also from trainee teacher's perspective. What do you do when that happens? Did you want to talk? Why do we fail people?Felicity. Yeah, well, I think as I mentioned before, we fail people because they're not meeting the standards. It would be nice to be able to pass everybody but that's the thing to remember, is that there are guidelines, it's not just...Ross: Yeah, I remember being at a presentation by Jason Anderson a few years ago and him saying that for trainees that find it difficult to accept feedback taking the approach of not saying "I'm doing this to make you a better teacher," or "You must do this to improve your teaching," but just saying like, "I want to help you pass the course.""In order to pass the course, you need to change this thing and then after the course you can go back to doing whatever you were doing previously if you want." I think that's really important, isn't it? Because whatever course it is, there are these certain criteria. Someone's chosen all those criteria, obviously not completely arbitrarily, but there are values behind whatever criteria they are.Sometimes even as an examiner you start to go, "Why do people have to do this?" It can obviously be difficult for trainees to accept, right?Felicity: Absolutely. I don't know if you should put this into the podcast, maybe you can consider it. [laughs]Ross: I think that's a great way to start a story...Felicity: [laughs] One way that I certainly use failure in my courses is to give people a very strong notch in the right direction. So teachers who are not understanding or reacting to feedback, for whatever reason, maybe they don't understand what we said to them, or they don't think that they need to make changes.If they continue to make the same errors, then sometimes failing one class will push them to get out of that groove and start teaching in the methodology that we're looking for.Tracy: I think usually, when we heard this word "failure," the opposite should be success, so you can see we forget about the process in between. How I help you from failure to success or we need to highlight, I think, that this course is not just the final result, pass or fail, because the process is help you for future more success in your career.We have to maybe change the definition of fail. You probably failed a criteria but it doesn't means you fail. Experimenting new techniques in the classroom.Ross: One of those points there is that maybe it's not you failed but it's like the lesson failed. I think that's a useful distinction to make. I think it can also seem very unfair on courses where you don't really get so much credit for your improvement, right? The courses are about learning, but the things that we measure on the courses isn't how much you learn, it's where you get to.Felicity: It's your performance, yeah.Ross: I wanted to ask you about this. What was your second bit of advice, it was idealism versus pragmatism?Felicity: Oh, so this is maybe you see a class that is borderline, you could choose to pass it, you could choose to fail it. In those kinds of situations you have to look at the wider context so, "Is it their first teaching practice?" If it is, maybe you want to pass it. Because if you fail on your first class, often it's so de‑motivating.Another thing you want to consider is, "How would the other trainees react if this class passes?" Another thing to consider as well is, "Is this person in their behavior potentially driving away students?" Because anyone who runs a cert or a Dip would know it's sometimes a struggle to get students.Ross: You mean trainees or do you mean actual students in the classes?Felicity: Actual students for the classes. If you have a trainee who taught a fairly methodologically sound class but then they maybe intimidated the students somehow, then what is a borderline might well become a fail because you want to really strongly push them away from discouraging students.Ross: You can't do your job anymore, right, if there are no students.Felicity. Yeah, exactly.Ross: It's really interesting, isn't it? There's also an issue with this, are they driving away other trainees as well on...not courses I've worked on but I think a lot of other courses when...It's a very awkward position when someone's paying you to take this course, but then you also have this option to fail the person.I think that puts the trainer in a very awkward situation because you don't want to get this reputation, I guess, of if you take the course there then you're much more likely to fail. Obviously you can have standards to uphold the things as well, right?Felicity: Yeah, absolutely.Ross: Should we talk about how to break the news if that was like you're deciding if this person is going to fail or not, or if they're borderline. When would you tell someone?Felicity: I've got a couple of strong rules. The first one is it's not you failed, it's the class failed. Because it's a high‑stress performance, that's not an indicator of who they are as a whole person. The second thing is to reduce dread as much as you can. The moment you get the chance to tell them gently and then it takes the stakes out of the rest of the conversation.Ross: I think as well if you do that to the middle or the end of the conversation. The only thing the person is going to be thinking about in between is did I pass?Felicity: Yeah. Actually quite recently I had a teacher who had passed but she wasn't very confident. We were having feedback and I thought that it would be self‑evident that she had passed the class, but I could see her getting more and more fidgety. Eventually I was just like, "Look, you've passed," and she immediately burst into tears because it was that incredible tension.Tracy: I remember clearly I had a trainee. There were two classes in a row, failed. The first time, of course, burst into tears and couldn't continue the conversation. Even though, I leave it for a while and then came back and still couldn't still talk about it. So I have to write down a lot of feedback to her, and she read it.I think that also helped. If you realize this person is already, cannot accept it, or feel really negative about it, maybe leave it or turn it into some written feedback instead. It probably the easiest way for people to accept because it's just a paper and words, no emotion. I'm going to read it when I need it or when I'm ready.Ross: I think as well, you're helping that person learn on giving them feedback about them helping other people learning. As a teacher, if you're just bombarding your students with feedback until they cry, that wouldn't be very good. So it seems important that, as a trainer, you demonstrate the same skill with seeing, "Is this person ready for the feedback? Do we need to wait?"A lot we are saying is leading into giving people feedback so what are some tips for people who failed and are saying, "What next?"Felicity: One thing that you can remind your trainees of is that hopefully, their failure will be an aberration from the pattern. So the norm is passing classes and if it's their second class and say, "Look, you've passed your first class, you definitely got the ability. Here are all the areas where you did pass but this area and this area."Ross: It sounds cheesy, but I think it is important to find some positive things to focus on. If it's a course where there are lots of criteria just talking through, "Hey, here are the things that you passed, that you did well on." Making those specific both so the person keeps doing them and to give them better confidence.One thing to definitely avoid doing in these situations is eliciting. That usually goes wrong. If someone's failed they just want to be told, "Here's why you failed and here's how to make sure that doesn't happen again." So strongly recommend not saying, "So you failed on this and this, how do you think you could do this better?"My example from the beginning, the person going berserk after they've been fired it was partially because the person doing the firing said, "Oh, this went wrong, this went wrong. What do you think we should do about it?" and the other person saying, "Oh, like I work harder," and then being "Well, I'm actually sorry, you're fired."Felicity: So by the time you get to observing a trainee, you're probably going to know them enough to know how they're going to react. If you have a trainee who you feel might get aggressive with you, or be very, very resistant then this might be a good opportunity to avoid this cognitive bias called reactive evaluation, which is where an idea that comes from an enemy is automatically less valuable.In situations where a person is likely to get aggressive, it's because they see you as the enemy. This is going to sound really weird, but what we want to maybe try and do in that situation is twist it around so that it's not you that's the enemy, it's the criteria and you are on their side and trying to get them to meet the criteria.So you're more of going back into a trainer role, rather than an assessor role. You're just saying like, "Look, I know this criterion is really tough but I'm here to help you understand and meet them. Here are some things that you can do to get yourself to that point."Tracy: I really like this quote this person said. "Failure is not a bag of learning, it's the feature. It's not something that should be locked out of the learning experience."Ross: My final top tip is sit in the seats closest to the door if these things go really badly wrong and bring some tissues.[laughter]Ross: I have definitely been in situations several times where I regret not doing one of those two things.[laughter]Ross: So Fifi, thanks for coming on. Where can people go to find out more about you?Felicity: I have a blog, it's classed the ELT Elf. I'll send you the link because...Ross: It's already on the website.Felicity: Oh. [laughs]Ross: It's on links page, and I'll also put it on this page.Felicity: Thank you.Ross: Great. Fifi, thanks so much for coming up. A pleasure.Tracy: Thank you and see you next time, everybody. Bye.Felicity: Bye.Ross: Bye.

Former online teacher training manager Matt Courtois and I meet to talk about online teacher development and evaluation. What opportunities does online teaching create for teacher development?Opportunities in Online Teacher Development (with Matt Courtois)Ross Thorburn: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to "TEFL Training Institute Podcast." I'm Ross Thorburn. This week, once again, we have Matt Courtois.Matt Courtois: Hey, long time no see.Ross: Last time, Matt, you and I talked about the effects of coronavirus and teaching online to serve things that teachers can do in class with students.Today, I thought it'd be interesting for us to talk about the effect that teaching online, and teachers just not being in the same physical space as either their managers, or their trainers, or their peers is having on teacher development.Matt: I think this whole teaching online thing, it's so lonely. Before all this happened, you're in here, your teacher's office, with 10 colleagues who are bouncing ideas. Here, you're sitting in possibly in an empty apartment, lonely experience.Ross: Absolutely. Before, when I at least worked in a school, sometimes you have a thing of a teacher would come in on a break and just be like, "Oh my God, that was a disaster," and you would have the chance to go like, "What's up? Can I help? What was the issue here?"As soon as you're online, those interactions in the staff room or by the water cooler, those don't happen anymore. It made the importance of formal teacher education stuff even more important than it was before.Matt: A lot of the feedback you get from your peers doesn't necessarily happen in a formal avenue, but a lot of times you're just sitting here talking about your lesson.Ross: It's like what we were talking about last time with teaching, that online is not necessarily better or worse. It's just different. There's some advantages to doing teacher education online, but taking the offline stuff and putting it online, it's not going to work.You have to think of some other potential advantages of online that maybe don't exist offline, and try to take advantage of those.Matt: There some things that you can do that are completely different from face‑to‑face feedback or coaching or training that online can be a lot more effective.Ross: One obvious place is that if you are teaching online, it's highly likely that every lesson you teach is going to be recorded. There are huge opportunities for doing self‑observation and peer observation, that in face‑to‑face settings are really difficult to set up.Matt: In a previous company that we worked at together that had face‑to‑face lessons, it's something we encourage lots of teachers to do. Video your lesson, then afterwards, you can watch it. I really think, over the two or three years that I was advocating this idea, I don't think a single teacher actually did it.Ross: Even doing the thing of peer observation. I might want to observe you teaching such and such a class, but when you're teaching that class, I also have a class. It's really difficult to ever actually make that work.Obviously, all of these problems just disappear immediately since we started talking about online teaching, where everything's recorded.Matt: One of the best things you can do is watch yourself teaching. I know the way I am. If I have that video there, and it's already done, I'm going to watch myself teaching.I know if somebody is giving feedback, you do want to be specific because it is helpful. If you, as the observer, think something didn't go well, you can refer them back to minute 5, 12 seconds, and say, watch this and watch how you interact with the student or that student.Ross: Or, let's watch it together. There's no more of this, "Oh, I didn't think this went very well. Well, actually, I thought it went fine."I think it's powerful to be able to say like, "Which part of the lesson do you want to talk about?" "This part." "OK, let's move the video forward to that part and we can watch it together. We can we can talk about it."The videos could be used in at least one of three ways that immediately spring to mind. One is that, as a teacher, you could proactively go watch this yourself and reflect on it or transcribe bits of it or whatever.Another potential use is that you could make a video available to your peers to watch, for example. Or, another bit is that your supervisor or trainer or whatever could come and watch you teach.Having things online, there's a real issue around privacy and access that is going to be really interesting.For example, at the moment, if we were in a school together, and you were the manager and I'm the teacher, and you want to come and observe me teach, you could just barge into the classroom and watch me, if you really wanted to.I might be upset about it, but I would know you were there. As soon as it's online, there's all of a sudden this thing of like, well, maybe everything's probably being recorded by the school or at least by someone.Potentially, you can observe anything that I've taught without me knowing about it. There's a flip side to this, though, of course, which does mean that when you're observing people, they're automatically going to be more nervous than they would be if there was no one in the room, the whole observer's paradox thing.Often, you'd find that a lot of the feedback I'd end up giving trainee teachers would be about teacher talk and talking too much. I sometimes wonder, are these people just talking too much because they're nervous because I'm in the room? If I wasn't here, they wouldn't be nervous.Therefore, I'm giving them feedback on this aspect of the teaching that really is not an issue for 99 percent of the time. It's only an issue when they're being observed.This is another advantage to this covert observation that, as a teacher, you can be observed, and as a manager, you can observe teachers. There's no longer this problem of people being nervous and changing their behavior because there's an observer in the room.Matt: Ideally, it's going to be a much less intimidating and less distracting experience for the teachers and the students. By having this avenue for observations online, your presence isn't going to be known at all by students and the teacher. Maybe it's less intimidating.Ross: At the moment, in terms of teacher observations, there's also different ways of doing it. You could have the manager just walks in completely unannounced, so the teacher has no control over when they're observed.You could have the manager tells the teacher in advance, I'm going to observe this class, and you spent all this time preparing. You could have the manager gives the teacher some options, so the teacher has a bit more ownership over when they're observed.Or, the teacher even could say to the manager, "I would like you to come and observe this class before I teach it." Of course, with online, it moves, it almost adds an extra part on that graph, on that continuum.You're the manager, I could say, "Not that I would like you to observe this class that I will be teaching next Tuesday." I can say, "I want you to observe this class yesterday that I had this problem with and tell me, what should I had done in the situation or what tips you could give." It could give teachers more autonomy.Matt: I know a lot of teachers who would want to impress their observer. Most teachers are going to choose one of their stronger lessons, which I actually think is a good thing. As an observer, I would like to see you at your best.You were talking about teacher talk earlier. I don't want to see some mistakes and coach you about something that doesn't really occur to you very often.I want to see you at your best and see if we can find some areas of that that we can move forward a little bit, and the teacher coming to that decision about, "This is my best lesson," and they're showing that to you.Hopefully, through that process, they watched that lesson. They're thinking about a lot of really good reflection that's going to happen automatically by trying to show their manager their best lesson.Ross: The potential there is for the teacher to choose something that they actually want the manager or the supervisor or trainer to see.Matt: Odds are, at this point, if teachers are choosing their best lessons, there's probably a lot of things that we can find in their online teaching to help push them forward a little bit.Who was your guest a couple of weeks ago? I don't remember, but he was saying most of the online lessons.Ross: This was Russell Stannard. He was saying there were a lot of terrible online lessons, which is true. The opposite of that could also be true. The other advantage of having everything filmed is to take us to peer observations for a moment.If we all, you and me and we've got five other people, who work in the same school, we could make our professional development with something. Like, you can choose one of your classes this week or an activity that you did in the last week that you thought was particularly good and show it to everyone.Normally, if you do that, it's going to be you standing up in front of everyone describing what you did. It's you actually showing everyone, "Here's a video of this activity I did. It worked really, really well." I think that's a lot more useful. A lot more potential benefits for everyone else in the school.Matt: Especially now, I talk about Bloom's taxonomy a little bit. A lot of teachers with online teaching are at the very first stage. When they see something that works, they're going to try to replicate it.They're not higher up on this taxonomy where they're trying to invent their own things. They're just trying to see what works and copy it. Showing these video examples is so useful for where they're at right now.Ross: Another interesting thing about this is that if you make a video of an offline lesson, you must’ve had this before, you video the class and afterwards, you put the headphones on and you watch it.It's like, "I can't really hear what the students are saying." I wish the board work was clearer. I feel like offline, the video is not as good as actually being in the room.Online, of course, watching the video after the class is just as good as watching the class live or even better, because you have 100 percent accurate representation of what actually happened there.Matt: You're seeing exactly what the student sees from their perspective when you're looking at a recording of an online lesson.Whereas offline, I don't know, whenever you have a mingle activity with 20 people talking at the same time, you don't feel the excitement of those people talking. You don't get to hear what they're saying. You just hear a bunch of noise. [laughs]I feel the very nature of these online lessons, that you can observe the whole thing, what's happening with every single student at every single point, and exactly what the teacher is doing, and how they're using their board exactly, how it ties into everything together to get an overall picture of this experience that students are having.Ross: That's a lot about the actual process of the observation. Observing or having classes online, observing and giving feedback or having a discussion afterwards, also opens the door to different ways of giving feedback or at least discussing lessons that wouldn't really be possible offline.Those conversations, when they do happen face‑to‑face, can often be very emotionally‑charged because the observer might be defensive. It's called hot cognition, when you're still affected by the emotion of event itself.There's also this potential by doing an observation on line of an online class. You then open up all these possibilities for it to be a much more cold cognition and for people to be more objective about the whole process.Matt: I think online, with email as well, a lot of your tone gets lost.Ross: You've observed my class. Emailing me about it afterwards is probably not ideal. What are some of the ways of trainers and trainees or supervisors and teachers actually talking about a lesson after it's happened?Matt: I can go on Skype, or Microsoft Teams, or whatever messaging device. A lot of these, there's a function to leave a video message. With video messages, you don't miss out on some of the body language and stuff that you would in an email.Your tone and maybe supportive nature as an observer can show up whenever you're sending a video message rather than an email. The observee doesn't misconstrue what you're saying. That's the benefit of writing an email.The benefit I find over face‑to‑face feedback. When you're giving face‑to‑face feedback, it's almost a confrontation. If you, as the observer, are maybe talking about an area for improvement, it's almost like an argument, or it can be, if it gets out of hand.Whereas, by giving video messages, you can, first of all, use the observer. You can try to record it a couple times. You can make sure that you're saying it in a way that the teacher can accept it.As the observer, you can say like, "Before you respond, can you look up this article? Here's a link to an article that you can read, then I want you to compare that to what we're talking about in your lesson."Also, the teacher has the chance to watch this video, with your body language and all the benefits of video. They can sit back and think about that message for a while. They don't have to respond immediately like they would in a face‑to‑face conversation.Once they've come up with what they want to say back to you, they can send the video message back to you. You'll find that the level of conversation is actually much higher.That way, it's not such a hot debate. It's a little bit cooler. You can take more time. You can actually prepare people to come up with a better response to what it is that you're saying.Ross: Matt, thanks for joining us.Matt: My pleasure, as always.Ross: All right. We'll see you again next time, everyone. Goodbye.Matt: See you.

The Who What How When and Why of Error Correction - TranscriptionTracy Yu: Welcome to the "TEFL Training Institute Podcast." The bite‑size TEFL podcast for teachers, trainers and managers.Ross Thorburn: Hi, everyone.Tracy: Hi, welcome to our podcast.Ross: A lot of the time when we're hanging out and we speak Chinese to each other, I often ask you to correct my Chinese if I make any mistakes. When you do, it's really annoying.[laughter]Tracy: Why is that?Ross: I don't know. It's like there's something about being corrected. You always feel that you're making a comment about how bad my Chinese is and it really annoys me. I don't know, it's funny. I always say, "Can you please correct me more?" but when you do, it's really annoying.Tracy: Do you think that helps you?Ross: Yes, but it's bad for your motivation because you feel annoyed by it.Tracy: What's the point? [laughs]Ross: The point is that today our podcast is about error correction and helping students and trainees and stuff learn from their mistakes.Tracy: As usual, we got three main questions or areas that we're going to discuss.Ross: First one is, why do students make errors?Tracy: The second one, should we correct errors?Ross: Finally, what principles are there in correcting students' errors?Why do students make errors?Ross: Why do students make errors?Tracy: One reason is, is an evidence of learning and is a part of the learning process. We learn how to drive and we learn how to...Ross: Swim. [laughs]Tracy: ...cook, how to swim and new skills. We usually make some mistakes and then from the mistakes, we can learn how to do it better.Ross: Yeah, no one does anything perfectly the first time.Tracy: The first time, yeah.Ross: That's impossible. Something I found really interesting about developmental errors is this thing called...we're not going to go too much into the weeds here with Second Language Acquisition, but I just wanted to mention this because I thought it was so cool.This is an example of U‑shaped acquisition from Rod Ellis' book, "Second Language Acquisition." Instead of me reading them out, Tracy, can you just make a sentence with each of them and I'll do a commentary?Tracy: Sure.Ross: This is for students acquiring ate, as in the past tense of eat.Tracy: I eat pizza last night.Ross: This is when you've not been able to mark the past tense, that's all, which is the first stage, and then...?Tracy: I ate pizza last night.Ross: Really interesting, right? The first type of past tense verbs that students acquire are irregular ones, which Tracy just learned. Next?Tracy: I eated pizza last night.Ross: This is after you've started to learn the past tense rule of adding ‑ed onto the end of things, but you've overused it. You've overgeneralized it.Tracy: I ated pizza last night.Ross: Here you've made some hybrid between the two, and the final one?Tracy: I ate pizza last night.Ross: Great.Tracy: Which is correct.Ross: Which is, yeah, you've now acquired it. Congratulations.Tracy: [laughs] Thank you, but the second and the fifth stage, I used the words correctly, but it doesn't mean I was at the same stage of acquiring the language.Ross: Yeah, which is so interesting. This is such a great example, because it shows how making errors is evidence that you're developing.Anyway, that was the developmental kind. What's the other main reason that students make errors?Tracy: Maybe they directly translate from their first language to the language they study?Ross: It's not always a direct translation, but yeah, call it L1 transfer.Tracy: Transfer, yeah.Ross: A long time ago, people thought that all the errors came from that. Gradually, they came to realize that that's not the case and a lot of the errors that students make are the same regardless of their first language. Part of the transfer errors, they're actually harder to get rid of than the developmental errors.Should teachers correct students’ errors in ESL classes?Ross: Let's talk about the next one. Should we correct errors? What do you tell teachers on teacher training courses?Tracy: I think it really depends. Sometime, I tell them to ignore that.Ross: Wow, OK. When do you say to ignore errors?Tracy: Two main scenarios. Number one, if it's not really in a learning setting. For example, you haven't seen the students for a while and saw the students, have a chat, and then students really talkative and very motivated and probably make some mistakes and then have errors in their sentences. Really, to be honest, I don't think that's a great context for us to correct their errors.Their motivation was not to learn much, they want to communicate with you. It's probably going to demotivate the students. The second scenario is if the error is really not impeding the communication that much, you probably want to ignore it.Ross: Yeah, right. Actually, I'm going to play you a little Jeremy Harmer quote about what you were talking about there, this process of deciding if you should correct an error or not.[pre‑recorded audio starts]Jeremy Harmer: Every time a student makes a mistake in class, you have to make a judgment. That's actually not true, you have to make about four or five judgments. The first judgment you have to make is, "Was it wrong?" The second judgment is, "Actually, what was wrong?" because sometimes it's not that easy to work out what was wrong.The third judgment you have to make is, "Should I correct it or should I just let it go?" The fourth judgment you have to make is, "Should I correct it or should somebody else correct it?" Suddenly in that one moment when students just make a mistake, you have to work out what to do.[pre‑recorded audio ends]Tracy: There are four main things that we need to consider immediately when the student make mistake. They are who, when, what, and how.Ross: What was the error? Yeah, because this is sometimes difficult to tell. Is it a pronunciation mistake or is it lexical or is it grammatical or...?Tracy: Who's going to correct it?Ross: It could be the teacher. You could try and do peer correction, you could try and get the person to correct themselves, I suppose.Tracy: Yeah, or even small groups some times. When? Should you correct the error immediately, or you're waiting? We always say delayed.Ross: The last one was?Tracy: How. What kind of techniques you are going to use?Ross: Good, hang on to that thought, because we'll talk about that in the next segment. I actually wanted to play another quote. This one's from Stephen Krashen. This is what Stephen Krashen thinks about error correction.[pre‑recorded audio starts]Stephen Krashen: Output plus correction. You say something, you make a mistake, someone corrects it. You change your idea of what the rule is. The six‑year‑old ESL child comes into the class and says to the teacher, "I comes to school every day."Teacher says, "No, no, I come to school every day." The child is supposed to think, "Oh yeah, that s doesn't go on the first person singular, it goes on the third person singular."I think that's utter fantasy, but that's the idea.[pre‑recorded audio ends]Ross: It's quite interesting. He thinks error correction is a complete waste of time. Dave Willis, the task‑based learning guru, pardon, he's someone else, just thinks error correction doesn't work.Tracy: Oh really?Ross: Not everyone says that but I just wanted to give an example of both.Tracy: That's quite confusing though. Should we correct or...?Ross: There's other research that says that you should and it does make a difference in some situations, but not in other ones. I think there's the research, not quite conclusive.Tracy: Definite law students haven't read about this research.[laughter]Tracy: They have really high demand in classroom from teachers to correct their errors, because otherwise, you don't think they learn anything.Ross: For me, that's true. That at least some of the value in coming to a language class is you get your errors corrected, because input, you can buy a book or you can watch TV. There's lots of ways you could get input, maybe not always great for practice. A lot of people in a lot countries do have opportunities to practice English.Here in Beijing, you could just go to a Starbucks and try and find a foreigner or some people might have to speak English for work. The big advantage of going to a language class is that you get correction.Tracy: This makes me think of the students actually, in my class which I just taught this afternoon. Is about some phonological aspects and she told me at the end of the class, she said, "Oh no, I've finally realized I have no knowledge, no idea and no awareness of the features of connected speech, because I study English for so long, but I always have trouble to understand people in the listening."If I didn't have that correction in my lesson, I think she'd probably not be able to aware of the features for a long time.Ross: Yeah, absolutely. Good, you should send that to Stephen Krashen.How should teachers correct students’ ESL errors?Ross: Let's talk about some principles for error correction. We'll just pretend that we've ignored Stephen Krashen, we've decided that when students actually made an error. What do you think are some good ideas or best practices or advice on correcting errors?Tracy: I will say, the first one is, don't correct all the errors.Ross: Yeah, it'd be way too many, right?Tracy: Yeah.Ross: That'd be really annoying.Tracy: [laughs] Yeah. They won't have much time to really practice.Ross: I think as well, we know from Second Language Acquisition that not all of the errors that you correct are actually going to help the students.Tracy: Just try to prioritize errors. Of course, again, the fundamental stuff. Was your lesson aims are and then what kind of language or skills that you are trying to focus on in your class. Stick to those. That should be prioritized.Ross: Another thing to add is correct errors that effect more students instead of fewer students. I agree, if it's in your plan, then correct it, but I also think if it's a problem all the students are having or most of the students are having, then it's probably worth correcting.That's a bit about what to correct, how about some how to correct? Actually, can I play you another quote? I want to make a record for the number of quotes, someone talked, it's number three.Tracy: OK, go on.Ross: This is Herbert Puchta, I think his name is, talking about an error correction technique.Herbert Puchta: Imagine a class where lots of students have problems getting the famous third person "S" right. Take a piece of paper and write an "S" on it. Stick it somewhere on the wall. When a student makes that mistake, point to the paper, wait and smile. Most probably, the student who's just made the error will notice what you want them to do and correct themselves.Ross: I thought that was interesting, he also chose the third persons "S" as his example. I think what he's trying to say there is that's a really in‑obtrusive way of correcting a student. You can correct someone as their speaking, by pointing at something, but you don't have to interrupt them.Another one for how, this may be also related to who, is to try and get the students involved in their correction.Tracy: Yeah, I get it, but sorry, I just feel like sometimes...We talk about who and we always want to encourage students themselves to correct themselves. The techniques in how teacher try to raise their awareness of their error is repeating the error.Ross: It's interesting that you bring that up because...or the other one is called a recast when the students said something wrong and you repeat it back to them, but they say it right. There's research that shows that when you do that, a lot of students don't realize that you are correcting an error. They just think you're repeating something.Tracy: Exactly.Ross: What are some ways of raising students' awareness that they've made an error?Tracy: What I experimented today was WeChat. Of course, I think there is...Ross: For those of you know in China, WeChat's an instant messenger type thing.Tracy: I ask the students to join the group.Ross: A group chat.Tracy: Yeah, group chat. Yeah, before the lesson started. Almost at the end of the class, I listen to what they said, I posted on four or five sentences into the group chat so everybody can see it.Ross: What's in these sentences? Mistakes the students have made?Tracy: Mistakes and also correct sentences together. Of course, I changed some of the words they are using or the pronouns or places. Yeah, I just, talk to your partners and then tell each other which one you think correct and which one is not correct and the then you think the one is not correct and then you can type the correct ones and then send to the group.Ross: I think you also hit on another thing there, that's something to get students involved, but another thing is that, the anonymity. Not singling someone out.Tracy: Another thing, I always tell teachers. There should be a correction circle. You raise their awareness, usually we stop and they move on, but not, there should be another step to complete the circle which is, give students another chance to use the language correctly by themselves. For example, the pizza mistakes.Ross: I ated pizza yesterday.Tracy: I mmm pizza yesterday.Ross: I ate pizza yesterday.Tracy: What did you have for breakfast today?Ross: I ate cereal for breakfast today.Tracy: Really? Do you really? [laughs]Ross: No, I actually drank coffee today, but...[laughter]Ross: ...this is a different verb. I didn't think it would fit your point.Tracy: You know what I mean, just...Ross: Yeah, give the students a chance.Tracy: It's something can be really simple. Just ask a similar question and they can answer.Errors Wrap upTracy: We talk a lot about correcting errors, but the examples we were using really focus on the language itself, but don't forget about error correction also related to performance or behavior in class.Ross: What does that mean?Tracy: For example, teaching young learners and if the student wasn't well behaved, I think we also need to...Ross: Give feedback.Tracy: ...give feedback on that.Ross: Yeah, good point. Bye everyone, thanks for listening.Tracy: Bye.

Regular guest Matt Courtois returns to discuss teaching groups of young learners online. We focus on some of the advantages of online teaching – what is it possible to do online, that isn’t possible to do offline? How to get students to genuinely and meaningfully communicate with each other online? And why tech problems and glitches might actually be the best part of online language lessons.Ross Thorburn: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to "TEFL Training Institute Podcast." I'm Ross Thorburn. This week, my guest, returning once again, is Matt Courtois.Matt Courtois: Hey, it's good be back.Ross: It's good to have you back. Matt, you and I used to work together in the same company. A large part of what you were doing was training teachers to teach online lessons of groups of students.Obviously, lots of teachers now all over the world are teaching groups of students online, so pretty cool to get your ideas and experience of doing that.Matt: Also, where I'm working now, we're doing the same thing that I think a lot of people are going through, and then we're transitioning our face‑to‑face classes to online.Ross: In your experience of doing this, both now and in the past, what do you think are some of the biggest challenges for teachers?Matt: One thing that every teacher...Actually, it was my first instinct as well, whenever I move to an online company, was thinking about, what do we do in a "real" classroom? Basically, figure out, right now, let's do that online, which is all good.It limits you because there are things that you can do online that you can't do in your regular classroom. First of all, teaching online is a real classroom. Secondly, there's a lot of advantages that teaching online has that you wouldn't even know how to do in a real classroom.Ross: I'm imagining here like a Venn diagram. It's like, what teachers tend to do online is just the stuff that overlaps often with teaching offline.Matt: One of the challenges that I still struggle with in training teachers online is trying to consider how can you get students to interact more. You've run Skype meetings, I've run Skype meetings, or zoom meetings, or whatever platform you're using.It ends up being a lecture. You don't get the participation you would in a normal training. It's just the nature of the way those platforms work. You can't get 10 people talking at the same time when working on a project.Ross: You can't do that thing of turnaround to speak to your partner now and discuss this if it's 10 people all sharing the same online space. What do you think are some ways that teachers can get students to interact with each other online in those group classes?Matt: I think the nicest way that a lot of platforms use, the most logical way to get all your students interacting at the same time is if you have six students, break them up into three different breakout rooms. They can talk for five minutes. Then you gather back together at the end, and you can debrief what they came up with in those five minutes in their breakout rooms.Ross: I can imagine there being a lot of trepidation from teachers in using them. It really is like a complete blind spot. If you're setting up group work in a class, you can kind of hear what everyone's doing at the same time, but as soon as they're in different, literally different rooms, it's absolutely impossible to hear what's going on.I guess maybe some tips for teachers in setting those up would be to be really clear about what you expect students to be able to come back at the end of the five minutes and be able to do or present and be super specific in the instructions.Matt: That goes with something I recommend telling teachers during class. Tell your students, go and get something from your house. You're talking about food, like tell students go to your refrigerator and find some food that you can present or show off.Again, you do have to consider, if you don't set a time limit, you might have some students that are gone for 15, 20 minutes. Because going on the refrigerator can be a point of distraction with some people.[laughter]Ross: Yeah, that's such a good point. I feel that's the other side of that Venn diagram. It's something that's possible to do online but not offline, is get real stuff from your house and from the students' houses, and bring them together and show them and compare them.Matt: Some obvious sets of stuff that everyone has in their house. You've got your furniture, different rooms. I had a teacher who's doing a demo with me. I was the fake student. She was doing the different rooms in the house. She basically would say, instead of take your computer to the bathroom or the bedroom ‑‑ it's too difficult; it's an invasion, almost.Instead, what she said, "Go to your bathroom and find a toothbrush. Bring your toothbrush back here and then go to your bedroom and find your pillow." It's vocabulary within the room. You can practice some of that.Different rooms, food, family members, presumably you're in your house with your family. For little children, especially, you can say, bring your parents here and introduced them to the class.Ross: You could do some cool translation activities with that as well. Like, get grandma, and you ask the question in English, the other student has to translate it into grandma's first language, then you do that back the way.Matt: Another huge way ‑‑ this is probably the best way you can get all your students talking in the same time with that breakout rooms ‑‑ is have them do the role play with their parents.It's great for parents too, because I think a lot of parents want to see that their children are learning and there's evidence of them being able to produce language in English, and they are interested. They are wanting to participate in their student's learning.Ross: They'll participate regardless. If the teacher just lets them be passive, you're really rolling the dice there in terms of what participation you're going to get. We've seen just about everything, from just shouting out the answers to telling the students that they're stupid for getting it wrong, to giving the wrong answers.If you're able to set roles for what you actually want the parents to do, then you can involve them in a way that you know is going to be productive.Another big difference for teaching kids online compared to offline, I think that's a potential advantage, is the classroom management language is really different for online to offline.If you think about just any decent coursebook, the first chapter is usually going to be things like what's your name, because you need to know your students' names, and things like stand up, sit down, pencil, eraser, pen, boom, blah, blah, blah, because students need to know and need to be able to use that language in order to actually participate in the class.I feel that most coursebooks will not have the language that you need to participate in an online class, which is all these other things. It's [inaudible 7:00] not stand up and sit down. It's like click, circle.Matt: It's an interesting thing, with teaching Lexus. I remember, a few years ago I went to a talk, and somebody was saying what are the first words that you teach to students? You teach the highest frequency words first because those are the ones that students use most.Ross: Again, it's so context specific, isn't it? I guess if you were teaching a group of students from different countries and different backgrounds, you would want your coursebook at the beginning to have things like, where did you come from?If you're teaching a group of students that are all in their home country from the same time, that language is not meaningful at all. It's even not meaningful, like if the students already know each other's names because they're in the same primary school class and have been for three years. That's not useful language.One of the things for teaching online is you really have to start assessing like, why do we teach some of the things that we teach?Matt: Along with that, here's the flip side of it that's positive is that a lot of my teachers, in the beginning of a lot of classes, they want to do something that students notice.They always ask students, "How's the weather today?" Something I point out is you and I sitting here in the same room would never ever ask that question because you're fully aware and I'm fully aware of how the weather is today, and we know that each other knows.It's not a real interaction. There's no exchange of ideas happening. It's purely a fake interaction that we create for the classroom.Whereas, all of a sudden, online, you do have some people being in different places. When I'm on the phone with you, if you're in Shanghai and I'm in Shenzhen, let's say, we would say, "How's the weather today?" I think online, now that becomes a genuine interaction. We can actually do it and have some different language appear as well.Ross: Even very simple things, like very, very low level students, like, "What colors can you see?" It's a sort of thing you'd maybe do in the classroom with real beginners. When everyone's in their own living rooms, all of a sudden, that's a genuine question. What colors can you see? Because I can't see your living room.I can just see wall behind you. You can see all these different things. All this communication that before used to be fake, or these questions, at least, that used to be display questions are now referential questions. Real communication is happening.Matt: I remember a story from our old company where one lesson, the teacher was asking students questions like that. They were looking at this PowerPoint together, and he said, "What's on this page?" The kid would say, "This is on the page, this, this, this." He just named all the items. "All right, next slide, what's on this page?" "This is on it. This is on."It's all this fake interaction because the teacher knows what's on those pages. Then all of a sudden, there was a technical difficulty. They started looking at two different pages.All of a sudden, the teacher said, "Can you tell me which page you're on? What are you seeing?" The student starts describing the page, and he's like, "Oh, so you got three pages ahead of me." You realize, it was by mistake, by a glitch in the system.Finally, we had a real interaction when they were looking at different things and trying to communicate and solve the problem together, so they could end up on the same page together. For the first time in their lesson, they're having a meaningful exchange.Ross: The teacher has a reason to actually listen to the student's answer as well. The communication is happening both ways.Matt: How many times am I going to ask you like, "What do you see?" He'd tell me, and I'd say, "Good job." That's not a real interaction. It's only for the classroom.Ross: That's a fascinating example, doesn't it? It was like, sometimes online, when things go wrong, it can be a positive thing. I've definitely seen this as well in terms of the audio quality, and then the teacher and students are not being able to hear each other.It doesn't mean you get more sort of negotiation and meaning of like, "What was that? What do you mean? Can you explain? Is there another word for that? How do you spell it?"Again, I'm not asking how do you spell it because I'm checking your spelling. It's because I'm genuinely trying to understand.Matt: Trying to understand. I remember something you used to complain about. In another previous, previous job, there's a lot of times to get that gap between students, to get that meaningful exchange in a real classroom.To get one student looking at something the other student doesn't, you end up blindfolding the student. You end up blindfolding student B, so student A can describe what to do. How many times have you been blindfolded in real life? No, don't answer that. I don't want to know.[laughter]Matt: You can understand why teachers are doing that, why they're putting the blindfold on their students ‑‑ so they can create that gap and that need for real communication, but it's just so inauthentic. Whereas online, you do have some people with camera problems and some people that don't. You can really use those to make your lessons better.Ross: Absolutely. I feel so much of this, it's really just taking the same principles as you're teaching off...I think there's so much of what is bad teaching offline. Teachers holding up flashcards and getting students to name them. That's also bad teaching online.Matt: It's a bit more obvious online as bad teaching. A teacher, when they have those flashcard activities, they can have 10 activities where they get the students up and running around.In essence, all they're doing is getting students to memorize these words on the flashcard. It is a very interactive thing where students are moving around. It can feel pretty fun.Online, if you're doing just that list of words or looking at the picture and treating it like that focus on the six vocabulary items again, and again, and again, you can't really fall back on that fun flashcard activity.Ross: Something you hit on there is the importance of doing something to get the students to move.I think half an hour, if you're six years old, to sit in the one place, that's a big ask. Trying to do those activities of whatever it is, like miming something or finding something in the room and bringing it back. Just doing something to get the students to just move away from this sitting, staring at the screen is a bit of a must.Matt: One rule I make for teachers is get your students up and moving in every class.Ross: That's obviously really easy to do offline, but I think that's something that requires a lot more thought online. Or, maybe it's not necessarily easier offline. It's just everyone has been doing it for longer.People have developed all these strategies for getting students to switch seats or look at something outside the class or do a rolling dictation. If it's online, you need to think of a new way, a new reason for the students to stand up and do something.Matt: I said in the beginning that this is something that all teachers around the world are doing, this transition from offline to online. I'm excited about it. In my profession and education, it is a pretty conservative thing.It hasn't evolved that much since I've taught. We're at a time now, right now, that we are doing something very different, and everybody's doing it. I'm excited to see what comes out of this.Ross: Good. I think that's a great place to wrap up. Matt, thanks for joining us.Matt: A pleasure, as always.Ross: All right. We'll see you again next time, everyone. Goodbye.Matt: See you.

Ross and online teacher trainer Alex Li talk about some of the biggest differences between teaching offline and online, common mistakes teachers make teaching online and their favorite online teaching activities.Ross Thorburn: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the TEFL Training Institute Podcast. I'm Ross Thorburn. Again, this week, we are doing something coronavirus‑related. We're talking about teaching language online. We've got dos and don'ts for those of you who are now making the transition from teaching offline to teaching online.To help us with that this week we have my friend and former colleague, Alex Li. Alex, for the last year‑and‑a‑half or so, has been a trainer, training teachers to teach online.In this episode, Alex and I will go through some of the differences between teaching English online compared to offline, some of the opportunities and a lot of common mistakes that teachers tend to make.More and more schools, it seems like, across the world are switching their classes to online for the time being. If that's you, listen on. We've got some great tips for you. Enjoy the interview.Ross: All right, let's start. Alex, thanks for joining us and doing this.Alex Li: Yeah.Ross: This is also the first podcast I've ever done while wearing a face mask.Alex: [laughs]Ross: We're obviously doing this because lots of teachers now are making the transition, we don't know for how long, from teaching offline to online. You did that yourself, obviously. You used to be a teacher offline, and then you started working in an online company.Maybe we can start off by talking about some of the differences. What first struck you as being some of the differences between teaching online and teaching offline?Alex: That would be personalization. Personally, I didn't do that when I was an offline teacher for young learners. Frankly, I don't know 80 percent of my students that much, while the rest of 20 percent I've probably talked to them after class. For one‑on‑one class, that gives teachers those opportunities to know their students more.Ross: When we are teaching kids offline, you're right. Usually, as a teacher, you don't learn that much about them. As soon as you're teaching students in their own homes, the setting gives you the opportunity to talk about so much more, doesn't it?Alex: Yeah. As you said, in a brick‑and‑mortar classroom where everybody's in the same place and the same city, if you ask how's the weather that would be pretty dull, because everybody knows that. After five students, they will be like, "Oh teacher, I know..."Ross: [laughs]Alex: ..."it's sunny."Ross: Or you have to pretend and make up like it's snowing...Alex: You show your flash cards.Ross: ...maybe when you're living in Africa and it snows. Online, there's all these natural information gaps. The teacher and the student are always going to be in different places...Alex: That's true.Ross: ...often in different cities or different countries, there's so many opportunities there to contrast and compare what's going on in the two locations.Alex: That can happen throughout the class. You can do it at the beginning as we talk about weather. You can also talk about certain target language.Ross: I remember when I was an offline teacher, and I used to teach kids. I remember sometimes trying to get kids to bring in something into the class, to do a show‑and‑tell type thing.One time it was like, "Bring in a photo of somewhere that you've been on holiday." Always, like two students would remember and the other 14 wouldn't. It would never work very well.I feel this is one of the other huge opportunities for teaching online. Students have all this stuff around them, especially for low levels. For example, if you're teaching clothes, the student can open their wardrobe and, for example, bring out their favorite clothes.You can show the students your favorite clothes as well. There's so many opportunities for personalization that you would never get if you were doing it offline.Alex: Yeah. I think you mentioned one good thing or one good model, is that the teacher gets to show the student if we are talking about clothes, his or her clothes first if it's a lower level. That's something I noticed some teachers are not doing online.Teachers have got to keep in mind that you're teaching one‑on‑one. You're still teaching, and giving appropriate model is important and essential.Ross: Offline, if you've got a class of 15 students, you might pick the strongest student to come to the front and demo that for the rest of the class. If you've only got one student, there's no opportunity to do that. What do you have to do instead? As the teacher, you have to model both parts.That's one of the biggest differences maybe, between teaching groups offline and teaching one‑to‑one online. The teacher has to take on so many different roles compared to teaching offline. For example, if you're doing group work or pair work or something offline.You put the students in pairs, and the students are conversation partners to each other. The teacher, you're still kind of in this teachery role where you're going around and monitoring. As soon as you go online, you've got to switch into a different role of being this...Alex: [laughs]Ross: ...conversation partner. That's quite difficult to actually do.Alex: Yeah, that's true. Some teachers ignore that part. There's no other kids in this classroom, so they ask their student to read both parts if we are having a dialogue.Ross: I wonder why that happens if the teacher just thinks like, "Oh, I'm going to get my student to talk as much as possible?"Alex: Or they just think that those students need to read before anything.Ross: Another thing that teachers are influenced by is increasing the amount of student's talking time in the class. That's one way to do that, is to get students to play both parts of a dialogue. I feel you're losing so much in terms of it being a natural or authentic conversation. It's much better for the teacher to assume one of the roles in the dialogue.Alex: Exactly. As a teacher, if you're talking about a lower‑level student, you can select the part that is easier for him or her to read. After he or she turns into an intermediate student, you can have him or her pick the role he or she wants. That's the way personalization occurs.Ross: You could do the same role‑play twice. You guys could just switch roles halfway through. Like if it's someone asking for directions first of all, the teacher provides the answers. Then you can switch it around and give the student in the more challenging role after they've seen a model.Those are all things that teachers would do naturally offline, giving a stronger student the more challenging role in a role play. I guess you have to be the strong student if you're the teacher during those activities. [laughs]Another common problem we see a lot online is teachers getting students to read whatever is on the screen out loud. Often, it's just a page of a course book, or something. I've seen teachers that even ask the students to read the title of the page. [laughs]Alex: And the instructions.Ross: And the instructions, right. What are some of the problems with that?Alex: It's not effective. The instruction is not the target language. I get it why they would do that. They probably think that they read it. They probably can't understand the instructions. The more they read it, the more they will get to know what's going on, but actually no.Ross: It doesn't work like that. If I'm asked to read something out loud, I always find I don't know what I've just read. I'm so focused on getting the science right that I don't actually process the meaning. With those, it's better to get the student to read it silently, which is also just much more natural.You don't see people [laughs] walking around with their phones or reading things out loud. We read in our heads most of the time. Or the teacher reads it out loud for their student to listen, and they can follow along.We started talking about the materials. Another issue with teaching online that doesn't happen so much offline is that teachers will tend to use every page, if we can call it that, of a lesson of the course book. We often online call it the "courseware." They'll go through it in order rather than jump around.It's interesting, because I noticed myself doing this with having the same book on my Kindle versus having the paper copy. I find that on the paper copy, it's so much easier to flick through and read chapters out of order. On a Kindle, I find I don't do that as much. I go through it in order.Teachers teaching online will tend to do the same thing of follow every page rather than what you might do in a course book, which is skip some activities or you might do the last activity first, that kind of thing.Alex: I don't know. Maybe somebody told them that, "You've got to finish the courseware." They just feel like, "Oh, by finish, you probably mean I need to complete each page."I once had a survey with some teachers, some call‑ins. They were like, "I didn't finish those activities. I didn't finish all those pages. Is that OK?"Ross: [laughs]Alex: I actually observed this teacher's class. She was doing fine. You can see that she's got some preparation. First and foremost, she identified what to teach, what the teaching objectives are. She did that, but she didn't complete the pages. Some teachers who are listening might not notice that.Ross: It's like offline teaching where the main thing is, "Teach the students. Don't teach the plan." You're totally right. A lot of teachers feel like, "My job here is to get to the end of these pages on this PowerPoint," rather than to help the students learn something or achieve something.Up until now we've mainly been talking about speaking, but I wanted to touch on writing for a moment. This is definitely one of my pet hates online, is teachers asking students to write something using the mouse. It's not a useful skill to practice.Alex: [laughs]Ross: Writing using a mouse and writing using a pen ‑‑ I mean, just try it ‑‑ they're very, very different. I can write quite well with a pen. I cannot write well with a mouse.Alex: I really show my respect for those teachers who can write perfectly with a mouse.Ross: [laughs] Perfectly with a mouse.Alex: If your student has this learning need which is to practice their handwriting, you can ask them to prepare a notepad. They can write there, and they can show you.Ross: Something else that I rarely see online is teachers or students actually moving the camera. Most people, when they're teaching online, they're using a laptop.Usually, the screen, it's on a hinge. It's pretty easy for the teacher or the student move the screen down. You could write, and the other person would be able to see what you're doing. I feel for teaching writing online, it's pretty challenging.Alex: We can agree that the priority of teaching online would be speaking and listening.Ross: Maybe we could talk about some activities that we think work particularly well. I can start out. One of the activities I've seen that works really well is a creative activity where you get the student to make something. The teacher has to do the typing, and the student has to do the telling.You've almost got the student describing the creative thing that they want, and the teacher drawing and filling things in. One of the examples I've seen work quite well is a shopping mall. Here's a floor plan of a shopping mall. The teacher asks the student, "What shops do you want in the shopping mall? What do you want them to be called?"The student has to say them, and the teacher types them in. You got a lot of communication happening in that activity, but also the student ends up being quite motivated.Alex: You're creating something.Ross: Absolutely. The teacher has to understand what the student is saying. If the teacher doesn't and makes a mistake with writing something, often the student's very quick to correct their teacher...Alex: [laughs]Ross: ...which is great because you're getting a lot of real communication happening there.Alex: I have two personal favorites kind of related to teaching texts. After you go through all those comprehension questions the courseware offers you, if you still have time, if we're talking about Bloom's Taxonomy, higher audio thinking skills at the level of evaluation, you can ask your student what are their perspective of the character?How do they think of this character? Ask why afterwards. You don't want to sound so much like what the courseware would offer. You can start with your own model. There is a stereotype going on, which is Chinese students, they are reluctant to express their opinions. This can be something to model.You can have different views on something, on somebody. It's OK. We're not judging somebody.Ross: [laughs]Alex: We're just expressing our opinions. Another one is for those classes there are texts about different cultures. Some students might be unfamiliar with those. After going through the text, say the setting is in Brazil and it's about carnival, then you can change it to the setting of Chinese New Year.That would be something that they can relate to. Back to Bloom's Taxonomy, you're creating something different with your student.Ross: With that second example there you're also taking advantage of that real information gap. If you're a teacher and you've not been to the same country as your student, you're probably not going to know very much about the culture. It's a real motivation for the teacher to be genuinely listening to what the student's saying and for the student to genuinely communicate with the teacher.Again there, we've got that thing of the teacher taking on another role, being the conversation partner and not just prompting the student to try out some target language but actually communicate something that the teacher wants to listen to.Alex: A suggestion for teachers would be to ask questions that they don't have answers to.Ross: Again everyone, that was Alex Li. If you enjoyed that, go to our website, www.tefltraininginstitute.com for more podcasts. If you really enjoyed it, please give us a good rating on iTunes. Thanks for listening. We'll see you again next time. Goodbye.

Do lessons have a plot? Should classes have a story line? How do lesson plans resemble movie scripts? We speak with teacher trainer extraordinaire Diederik Van Gorp, about story arcs in lessons and how these affect our transitions form one activity to the next.Tracy: Hello, everyone. Welcome to our podcast today. Let me introduce our special guest, Diederik.Diederik Van Gorp: Hello.Tracy: Welcome.Diederik: Thank you very much.Ross Thorburn: Just to check because I don’t think we said last time, it’s Diederik Van Gorp, right?Diederik: Yes.Ross: Just in case there's many other Diederiks out there. [laughs]Diederik: I haven't met them yet.[laughter][crosstalk]Diederik: The dutch pronunciation would be Diederik Van Gorp. But I anglicized it slightly, I think automatically. When I was teaching children in China, it very quickly just became D.Ross: I remember you saying that to me, "Just call me D."[laughter]Diederik: The first class, you introduce yourself and I just write a letter D. They thought it was hilarious because this person just has one letter as a name.[laughter]Diederik: They're very cute.Ross: Diederik, you wanted to talk about transitions, which I think is really interesting. One, because there's not very much about it online, just as you pointed out. Two, actually when I started preparing for this, I also got to this point where I was like, "What does he mean?"Diederik: I wondered as well. At one point, I was talking to a colleague, he's like, "The transitions were very smooth in this lesson, from one stage to the next." It was very hard for me to pinpoint exactly what that was, trying to find an article, you go online, or go to your books. There's almost nothing there. I guess now, they're creating the...[crosstalk]Diederik: One of the big things in the lesson is context. There's one stage of the lesson, you're going to the next stage. It can be very abrupt, means that the learners have no idea where did this come from. Good transition is, you either refer back, for example to the context, or you point to something that's going to happen later.If you go from a nice lexis activity to a reading task and then all of a sudden there's this seven, eight words, students are matching them, you ask concept‑check questions, you drill it maybe, all of a sudden you say, "Read the text. Answer the questions." Where did this come from? It's a very clear instruction, there's no confusion possible but it's very mechanical.Linking that activity to...these words were actually in the text. By quickly pointing that out or a listing, or, "Do you remember earlier on?" "Ah, yeah, yeah, we're going to read something about your friend Bob." It gives it coherence. There's something else that I quite like, if a lesson is a narrative, if a lesson is a story, then it becomes very coherent. I like it when it comes full circle.I wrote for a while, writing dialogues for short movie clips to learn English. Basically, one of the things I learned there was, it's not just the movie that needs a beginning, middle, end. Even a dialogue needs a beginning, middle, end and there needs to be some kind of conflict.If you look at a lesson, because they argue that the human mind is a bit wired for beginning, middle, end. For a lesson, it seems to be similar. You need a beginning, set it up well. You need to the meat, the most important part of the movie, most important part of the lesson. Then, some kind of closure at the end.Very often, lessons fall flat because teachers are great at setting it up but it falls flat at the end because they run out of time and becomes very abrupt the end. That's why, watching a movie ‑‑ the bad guy got killed and that's the end of the movie ‑‑ we don't see them being happily ever after, getting married and all those things.Ross: Interesting. I remember watching Alfred Hitchcock's "Vertigo" a while ago. It does end like that. I think the woman jumps off this tower and dies. Sorry, if you've not seen it.[laughter]Diederik: Spoiler alert.[crosstalk]Ross: ...and dies. Literally, the credits come on and you're still in this shock. You're like, "Oh, that's it?" Like you say, movies always, nowadays, we have this scene.Diederik: Somehow, it links back to the beginning but there will be the change. With a lesson, that could be a nice idea to approach a lesson. If you fit your stages in there, finish on the high somehow.Tracy: Do you know there is an activity, at least we played it in Chinese a lot when I was a kid. This kind of my understanding of transition in the class. You say Chinese [Chinese] .Ross: Idiom.Diederik: Idiom?Tracy: Yeah.Diederik: The four‑character idiom?Tracy: Yeah, the four‑character idiom. The next person would have to use the last words from the last idiom and then next, the beginning of the next idiom. That's hard picture like a lesson transition.Diederik: That's interesting. The last thing you do needs to be the first thing of the next stage. Something like that?Tracy: Yes, something like that.Ross: Your example earlier, Diederik, of that read‑this‑answer‑the‑questions, it's almost so abrupt you can imagine people going, "Did I hear that right?" Whereas if you say you have that who could remember these eight words? Can you see these words anywhere here? Oh, one of them's in the title. Where do you think the other set will be? Great. Now, read this and answer the questions."Tracy: Another thing ‑‑ it might be related to transition ‑‑ is about the difficulty level. If you look at a lesson, it's a flow. Maybe at the very beginning something a little bit easier or less challenging. Then it's getting maybe a little bit more challenging. At the end, they can see how much they have improved.Diederik: Then you release the pressure again a little bit at the end test, what have you learned or something?Tracy: Yeah.Diederik: When you introduce the language in a traditionally staged lesson, maybe in a movie where the conflict is introduced, we have an obstacle to overcome, it's this language point.Ross: Is it Joseph Campbell? Is that the person? This idea of there's a story arc, there's only one story that basically people ever had...[crosstalk]Diederik: Yeah, or just a variation on the theme.[crosstalk]Ross: One great story but a lot of it. Certainly my favorite lessons that I've taught to start off with some...We're doing one like an activity. I think it's on my diploma at the beginning asking people, "Oh, I'm doing this. Are you interested in coming to this thing tonight?"People turning down this invitation and at the end of the class, you go back and do the same thing again but, like the story, the characters have changed. Except in this, the language the students are using have changed. That's the difference, that's the development that's happened which is like a story.I'm just so into this movie analogy now. You got me thinking of this great Chinese movie I love called "Shower" or Xǐ zǎo in Chinese. At some point in the movie ‑‑ it's some people who are in a bath house in Beijing ‑‑ it cuts to 50 years ago in this desert area of China. After five minutes, you start thinking, "Is this a mistake? Is there a problem with the DVD?"It creates this expectation. Eventually, it cuts back. It's like the back story. The main character says, "That was your mother." This reminded me of doing teacher training years ago, doing an activity for writing lesson, getting them to do something stupid like, "Give them a dart board but no darts. Then ask them who's the best darts player."I remember one of the trainees say, "Why are we doing this? What's the point?" One of the other ones goes, "There will be a point. You'll find out in a minute."I think it's almost that same thing, isn't it? Like with the movies, it's creating this expectation. Sometimes, I don't know what's going on here but if I have belief in this teacher, this trainer, I know there's going to be a point.Diederik: It must be there for a reason, but they must have been disappointed so many times.[laughter][music]Diederik: Just thinking of something related to transitions is, one of the main scales that a teacher needs is working with published materials, either course book or whatever that has been given to them. That teaching is going from one exercise to the next. "Are you finished?" "Yes." "Now, do exercise three. Do exercise four."The teacher actually can see the flow of that lesson and just verbalizes it almost, "Yes, now we're going to put that into practice." Maybe transition are a bit more important than you think, to bring something that's dead on the page, bring it alive, give it purpose.Tracy: When we're doing research about this topic before, not really much about it, do you think it's because transition in class, it doesn't affect the lesson a lot?Diederik: Maybe for the feeling, for motivation of the students, maybe it does a little bit more than we think it does.Ross: I think this also comes down to this idea that if your classes feel like a succession of unrelated activities, it's going to be very easy to give up as a learner. It's going to be very challenging to maintain motivation for a long period, isn't it? Like, "Why are we doing this? What's the point?"Diederik: Another gap filled.[laughter]Diederik: There's another one. I just remembered this. When I started out as a teacher trainer, I was explaining to new students, if one stage does not go well, no problem. Every stage is like a new spring, you can start anew.A stage that feels flat, the energy is drained, it was boring, whatever went on. Every stage is a new opportunity to re‑energize the students, project your voice. Transitions can actually spike the energy again.[music]Ross: I want to talk about what I actually thought you meant by transitions, which is completely different. What I think we spoke about there was teaching for adults or maybe teenagers but probably not like six‑year‑olds.What I actually ended up writing about, taking notes on, was going from one activity to another with some very young learners, almost like this classroom management idea for kindergarten students. As an example, the chaos of some six‑year‑olds with bags coming in to a classroom...Diederik: Almost a routine, in this part of the room, this happens, this is the storytelling corner, here we do the book work.Ross: This is obviously potential, "All right. Everyone, move to the front of the room!" Then there's this, you can just imagine a car leaving a cloud of dust, things are flying out.Diederik: The transition then would be sometimes counting, maybe sometimes a song.Ross: Exactly. The idea that if you have those in place and you trained your students on them then all those moving from this part of the room to that part of the room or from a writing or a coloring activity, to another, are smoother and safer.Diederik: Different cues, basically. That's similar to teaching adults. Some of the automatic things you do ‑‑ like they worked on their own and you let them compare around as in pairs ‑‑ there's this moment they do it automatically. They're also transitions, I guess.Ross: The commonality between the two of those is that if you do a good job of them, they should become so natural that the longer you work with the students, almost the less instructions you need to give.Diederik: I've seen a beautiful thing once where the student was so used to the techniques, because this person just came every month to every class of every training teacher, that if the teacher was about to give the handouts, while giving the instructions, she would give an act...[laughter]Diederik: It was like, "Oh, instruction before handout." She wouldn't say it. It's like she knew it.Ross: Did you go by that point about it being logical and making sense? It reminds me of...Tracy, when you and I were in India a few years ago, we booked these cinema tickets. It was some beautiful old cinema in Jaipur. We bought these tickets. I think we assumed it was in English or at least it would have English subtitles, but it didn't. It was all in Hindi and had Hindi subtitles.Because of the genre of the film, which was like Arnold Schwarzenegger‑esque action film, we were able to follow and understand the whole thing. It made complete sense even though we couldn't really understand a word in the whole movie. I think that's similar, isn't it?Diederik: Yes, it's very similar. I remember watching Disney movies on the small screen in a long‑distance bus in Turkey. It was all in Turkish. I could understand everything, I think "Kung Fu Panda" and I'm indeed [inaudible 12:56] . It's like, yeah, this is the moment that the obstacle is introduced.Ross: It's almost like that you think of the brain being hardwired, the stories are hardwired for a language classes, something, right? They will know the beginning, middle, end.Diederik: When people really hate a movie, very often, it's an art‑type movie that they accidentally watched. A lot of people do like it but they're not the mainstream.Ross: Or it doesn't wrap up at the end, there's no ending to it.Diederik: Like the Coen Brothers movies, [inaudible 13:20] at the end.Ross: That almost reminds me of another point. I think Donald Freeman had an article. It was called "From Teacher to Teacher Trainer." He talks about, how can you tell if your training was successful?He said, people smiling, high‑fiving each other at the classroom doesn't mean they learned anything. People leaving confused and disappointed doesn't mean they didn't learn anything. That's almost like the Coen Brothers just because at the end of the movie, "What on earth was that about?" It doesn't mean it was a bad movie.Diederik: It makes you think maybe.Ross: Those are movies that I love where you're still thinking about what could the ending mean weeks or months after.Diederik: Let's say an action movie, the immediate response is satisfaction but you want to remember it, you want to talk about it more.[music]Tracy: Thanks very much for listening. Thank you so much, Diederik, for coming to our podcast.Diederik: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.Tracy: All right. See you next time.Diederik: See you.

Ian McGrath joins us to discuss how coursebooks can be used, what affect they have on teacher autonomy and how teachers can make themselves the masters rather than servants. As Alan Cuningsworth says, “Coursebooks make good servants, but poor masters.” But who is usually the master in the language classroom? The teacher or the coursebook? Ross Thorburn: Hi Ian, and thanks for joining us. I wanted to start off by asking you about the effect that materials can have on teachers' teaching skills.You've got a section near the beginning of your book based around an argument from Jack Richards. I'll just quote to you from the bit from the book, "It's been argued that if teaching decisions are largely based on the textbook and the teacher's book, this has the effect of deskilling teachers." How much do you agree with that argument?Ian McGrath: Well, I suppose it's a theoretical possibility, but I think that rests on two assumptions. That, for example, the teacher has certain skills to begin with which can be lost, and secondly, he or she loses them because they're not required in order to teach with this particular book.I haven't seen any evidence to support this notion of skill loss, but I do think there's a real danger that teachers, let's say, who use the same book year in, year out do lose interest in the material. As a consequence, this loss of interest is communicated to the students.I've observed a lot of teachers. It's fairly obvious that enthusiastic teachers can energize and motivate students, whereas bored teachers are likely to bore their students. Once teachers have been teaching the materials for so long that they've lost interest in them, there is a danger that they start to become boring.Ross: I guess the thing that Jack Richards doesn't really mention there is teachers who maybe just never developed those skills in the first place.Ian: That's a very good point.Ross: Anyway, you've got another nice quote in the book from Cunningsworth, I think, which says, "Coursebooks make good servants but poor masters." In your experience, who usually is the master or the servant in the classroom, and why?Ian: This takes us to teacher autonomy. It depends on the mindset and the professionalism of the teacher. The teacher has to see the coursebook as a servant, although actually I prefer tool, resource, one of the resources that can be used to bring about successful learning.Ross: Going back to the Jack Richards' quote, "Coursebooks might deskill teachers or stop them from developing certain skills," can the coursebook also disempower teachers?Ian: Going back to the Cunningsworth quote, if you accept the book as your master, then you disempower yourself. As a teacher, we have to remember that we also have relevant knowledge and experience that we can pass on to students, and students, themselves, have knowledge that they can share.Why should we hand power over to the writer of a book who knows nothing about our students and their particular interests and needs?Ross: I completely agree. As a teacher, you know your students, whereas the writers probably never set foot in the school and possibly never even been to the country that you're teaching in.Does this also relate to the management of the school? I think, in some contexts, the power isn't given away by the teachers so much. It's maybe given away by the management, where managers maybe have placed a lot of faith -- probably too much faith -- in the writers of the coursebook. Have you seen that sort of thing before?Ian: Yes, I have seen that situation. That reduces the motivation of the teachers, because they aren't free to do what they feel they should be doing. If teachers feel free to be responsive and creative, then that makes every class different.Even if you're teaching the same 'teaching' -- I'm using this in inverted commas, as it were -- teaching the same material or, let's say, using the same material, you don't necessarily have to use it in exactly the same way with each class, because the class, itself, will be different.Ross: Sometimes, nowadays, we see coursebooks that just have a huge amount of detail in the teacher's notes. I can personally remember using a teacher's book that virtually told you to stand up, walk across the room, pick up a pen before writing something on the whiteboard.Do you think that going into a lot of detail in those teaching notes, is that useful help for novice teachers, or is it something that's more constricting for experienced teachers? How, as a coursebook writer, can you balance giving help to those different groups of teachers?Ian: I don't blame teachers' books or publishers for this. They're obviously try to sell as many books as they can. There's a commercial motive, but I think the writers of these books are also trying to be helpful.Teachers have very different levels of professional awareness. When you start out as a teacher, it's reassuring to be given a range of ready-made materials and suggestions for how to use them.I started teaching without having had any training. For me, one of the teacher's books that I used was, in a sense, my trainer. By following the suggestions in the book, I felt more secure about what I was doing. Over time, I felt free to vary what I was doing.It's a lot to do with experience. When you feel confident enough to select from what's being suggested, I think you will. I don't see the mass of detail procedures as an impediment to autonomy. For me, the suggestions are there to be used or not, depending on the teacher's own level of experience and confidence.Ross: It's almost like the opposite of deskilling the teachers like we mentioned at the beginning, where if it's a good coursebook, then hopefully, it can act as a good example and almost like a teacher trainer for novice teachers.That also means that, just as in teachers have to teach mixed ability classes and make the same materials work for both higher and lower-level students, the materials writers also have to write for mixed abilities of teachers.Ian: I think so. With coursebooks, I'm thinking of, this is the core material, and then there are these possible branches off from this that you may choose to follow according to the needs, interests, capabilities of the class you're teaching.It's clear to everyone what has to be done, in a sense, but not necessarily how it has to be done. Also, there are these branching possibilities which one may be able to follow, depending also on the amount of time available.Coursebooks are also written with a certain number of teaching hours in mind. There's often an expectation, on the part of learners, as well as management, that you will get through the book, so teachers inevitably have to make decisions about what they can include and what they can't include.Ross: Something else I wanted to ask you about was another nice quote about teachers finding that activities don't quite match their teaching style. You said in that situation, the teachers have a choice either to adapt the book or to adapt to the book. Do you want to tell us a bit about those options?Ian: I think it was Rod Bolitho and Tony Wright who, at one point, used the term "teaching against the grain." The metaphor here is to the difficulty of cutting wood against the grain.What they were trying to say is that, sometimes, we feel some discomfort with a particular coursebook text or an activity. That discomfort may be due to either the fact that we don't see ourselves teaching comfortably in that way, or in the case of a text, there are things in this text which don't suit culturally, let's say, the kind of group that we're working with.Basically, we have a choice to adapt the materials or to teach them as they are. You can probably guess what my advice would be.[laughter]Ian: It would be to adapt the materials, but, at the same time, try to ensure that we don't lose sight of the intended learning outcome. We're trying to achieve the same, let's say, linguistic objective if it is a linguistic objective, but doing so using other materials or other means.Ross: There is also a flip side to this though, where sometimes it's only by trying something that we think isn't going to work -- maybe from a coursebook, for example -- that we end up getting out of our routine, getting out of our comfort zone, and actually putting ourselves in a position to learn.Ian: There may be a time and place for this. [laughs] If you're on a teacher training course, you may feel more comfortable experimenting with something than in your own class, where you're a bit concerned, if something should go wrong, about the consequences of that.Again, going back to observation, it's good to encourage people to try out things in an observation that they haven't necessarily done before, because then, they have somebody present who can talk them through that experience and say, "Well, it was great. It was fantastic. You did it perfectly."Encouraging them to do it again, or if it didn't work that well, to analyze why that was and how they might modify the approach to make it more effective the next time around.Ross: Finally, as someone who's both a teacher, teacher trainer, coursebook writer, how do you go about using a coursebook?Ian: My starting point is not the materials, themselves, but what I think, how was the course planned? I've set, possibly in negotiation with the students, what I think would be appropriate learning outcomes within the time available. Then I've chosen a coursebook or a set of materials that I feel will help me to accomplish those objectives.Let's say I have just one coursebook. The first process is to select from those bits of the coursebook that will be directly helpful and useful, and to decide what I'm not going to use. Even where I have selected things, I might feel the need to adapt them in certain ways. One possibility, obviously, is to exploit the material to get more out of it.If one takes the example of a text in the book, the text may be accompanied by a series of questions -- usually the case -- but I don't think one has to rely on the questions in the book.One can get learners to talk about the topic of the text and their own experience in relation to it. If there are pictures, again, they can comment on those pictures, so that you're not necessarily using the material in the way that it's laid down. You are developing it in certain ways. You're exploiting it.Sometimes, one might need to replace material in a book with one's own material because one feels that that's more relevant to students' needs, or even get learners to bring in materials, themselves. One almost always has to supplement what's provided because, as we said earlier, no textbook is going to be perfect for the particular group you're teaching.You're likely to have to add certain things to it. It may be that more practice is needed of a particular point, or you feel the need to include more communicative activities in your course, and so on.

Ross and favorite guest Dave Weller talk about ethics in English education. What problems are caused by charging for teaching? What are the ethics of observing teachers? Is it fair to expect teachers to prepare for classes in their own time?Ross Thorburn: [laughs] Hurrah. Welcome to Dave Weller.Dave Weller: You just stole my thunder.Ross: [laughs] I know. What can I say? Regular listeners will understand the joke.Dave: Hello everybody.Ross: Welcome back, Dave.Dave: Thank you.Ross: Today, I thought we could talk about something that is much needed and often much lacking, which is ethics in English education.[laughter]Dave: A deep topic.Ross: Isn't it? I don't know about you, but I've definitely found that most of the schools that I've worked in, not always, but in some ways, been ethically lacking.It's something that we don't often talk about, maybe. Certainly, we've not talked about in this podcast before. It's something that teachers often talk about in teachers' rooms, right? With problems about the ethics of schools. I thought it would be interesting of us to debate here.Dave: Absolutely. People listening, it depends which context you're teaching in, but every teacher I've ever spoken to has a story or several stories to tell about unfairness, discrimination, prejudice. Definitely, there's issues in the industry with ethical behavior.Ross: Maybe, it's more important in teaching, for a lot of teachers that get into teaching, because it should be a net-positive profession. It might be different to some other higher-paying jobs that are more financially motivated, whereas teaching, very few people will get into it to make money, right?Dave: Oh, def.[laughter]Ross: Too late now.Dave: You can't.[laughter]Dave: Is it too late to change my...Ross: I think it is at this point, Dave. We want to play a little quote from David Brooks -- who's got a great book on this topic -- talking to Sam Harris.Sam Harris: What are the resume virtues and the eulogy virtues?David Brooks: The eulogy virtues and the resume virtues are things I, more or less, took from a guy named Joseph Soloveitchik, who was a rabbi in the mid-20th century. He said we have two sides of our nature.One side, which is about conquering the world and being majestic in it. Those are the resume virtues, the things that make us good at our job. Then the eulogy virtues are the internal side of ourselves, the things they say about us after we're dead, whether it's being courageous or honest, or capable of great love.We live in a culture that knows the eulogy virtues are more important. We all would rather be remembered for our character traits rather than our career, but we live in a culture that emphasizes the career parts. We're a lot more articulate about how to build a good career than how to build a good person.Our universities, in particular, are much more confident in talking about professional rise than a moral or spiritual rise.Ross: I would say that's probably also true in our industry, at least, in all the training courses I've worked on. I don't ever remember ethics or the ethics of education ever coming up on them. Obviously, we spend a lot of time talking about how to become a better teacher, but not better in terms of character, better in terms of ethics teacher.Dave: I would agree. It's interesting. I remember the old Greeks used to do several subjects like the triumvirate of rhetoric, logic, and ethics, because they saw it as inseparable from being able to lead a good life.Actually teaching ethics to the young citizens of the time was imperative. They would have thought it very strange not to do so. Yet, it's something missing. Well, I never got taught ethics. Probably why I am why I am now.[laughter]Ross: I thought we could start off with what are the ethics of charging people for education. Obviously, both you and I, pretty much our entire careers, we've worked a little bit in government schools at some point, but mainly it's been paying customers.What would you think are some of the ethical issues or problems there?Dave: Any ethical question, you have to look at all the variables behind it. You have to look at people's income, their wealth, what they are currently studying, government schools, their need, the company that's providing the education, its standards for their own teachers.I think that the context is inseparable. To say in general terms, it's quite tough.Ross: At least, I can see there being some advantages of having education in the private sphere rather than the public sphere. In theory at least, there should be more...In general, there should be more pressure on providers to deliver a better service, because you're getting all this pressure from your competitors.Dave: If government schools and services were perfect, there wouldn't be any need to have private education in the first place.Ross: I can see, maybe, the difficulty there. It's like who do you decide to sell to, or when do you decide not to sell things to people?I've had friends and colleagues who've worked especially with adults. People who they know can't afford an English course, or maybe they're working in a job where English is not going to benefit them very much, or they know that this person doesn't have the study skills. Most people are, maybe, encouraged to take out a large bank loan to pay for something.Dave: Even if the school or institution that's selling the courses, it depends if they do so ethically. If they have a different payment plan so you can pay monthly rather than in a yearly lump sum, which makes it more affordable. If they are offering to people who they think won't be able to complete it in time, or they have other pressures.Even how good their teaching is, which methodology do they follow? Is it up-to-date and evidence-based? If they follow an outdated system because it's easy to market, they'll definitely get more sales.Also, you need to look at the school's retention. What are their results? Can they show that they've helped learners to learn?Ross: You touched on something there, this idea of rewarding teachers for, for example, students signing on, re-signing contracts in private language schools, or demo conversions. Students come to a trial class and they've paid, or they've not paid.That, I think, is an interesting ethical question, of whether that is something that should be rewarded, obviously something that should be punished. Is that a good way of judging people?There is one side of that in that if your students have signed a year contract and they've stayed with you for a year, and they want to re-sign again. That probably does, in aggregate with a lot of people, say some positive things about you. Maybe, if they don't, it says some negative things about you.There's obviously another side to that as well. You're starting to judge teachers by how much money they're generating rather than how much learning they're generating.Dave: Precisely, because learning is such a long process. If a teacher is purely entertaining, they're going to get a very high re-sign rate. That doesn't mean learning happened.Learning is hard. You have to really think. You're perhaps frowning as you grasp a new concept. That is leading to a teacher not getting as high re-sign rate because the students don't want to think in class.The teacher could be technically brilliant and really adept at helping the students to learn. If that teacher is disincentivized from that behavior and think, "Well, actually I earn a decent salary. I enjoy where I'm living, and I want to stay." They could well change their behavior to increase whatever rate they might be being judged on, especially if it's a financial one.Ross: Then you can imagine that being a vicious circle as well, where you would promote the people that get those metrics rather than the metrics of learning, which are harder to measure. That reinforces that whole paradigm, doesn't it? That what we want is re-signs and money rather than learning.Dave: Precisely. This is a problem that I had years ago when I first became a DoS. Before all the technology that we're talking about, I was struggling with the idea of how to measure academic quality. It's really hard to do, because the only way you can do it, as far as I can see, is to directly observe it.We don't have any standard algorithm of what makes good teaching or what makes good learning, because it varies so much depending on the variables of the teacher and the students involved, that is only by direct observation you can see.It affects so many other business metrics within a school. It can affect sales. If you're doing class, you get referrals. It can affect your retention, your service department. You can measure it through the effect it has on other things, but that is a very tricky process and needs a lot of data.If you have a manager that's very business-focused, and you're an academic head, then trying to prove that becomes a real battle. I see that getting worse if the right things aren't measured. With online, with all the extra data coming in, people could well take the easy solution and make those simple correlations.Ross: It's like the old management saying, "What gets measured gets managed." It's a lot easier to measure re-signs or conversions than to measure learning, which is still a bit of an abstract idea and very, very difficult to actually assess.Dave: That's actually a Peter Drucker quote, and he has an extension to it which most people don't say, which is, "...but make sure you measure the right things."Ross: Ah.[laughter]Ross: Oh wow, there we go. Moving on, let's talk a bit about teachers. I know this is something that you wanted to talk about. Schools in general often ask teachers to do a lot of work, and preparation, and marking classes in their own time, right?Dave: If a school is upfront with how they pitch the job to teachers, then I think it's fine. I think a lot of schools don't mention what their expectations are of work upfront.They might say, "The job is this many hours per week for this salary." Then when the teacher starts work, they find out, "Oh, there are also office hours you have to attend. There are extracurricular activities you also have to be present for. There are team building activities which are compulsory." The list goes on. I'm sure [chuckles] our listeners can add a lot more to that.Suddenly, what was thought to be a 40-hour a week job turns into 60 or 70, when, as you say, you add in preparation, marking, and even the horrible situation where teachers are buying supplies from their own pocket as well.Ross: It's almost like schools are taking advantage of the good nature of teachers, of wanting to do good things for their students.I remember my dad, growing up, in my childhood, I remember him. So often the living room floor would be strewn with these cut-out bits of old exam papers which he was copying and pasting to turn into new tests for students that they hadn't had before.Maybe, teaching is different from other professions. Whereas if you're in sales or something and you're putting in many extra hours, you're probably doing that, partially at least, in the expectation that you're going to get more money. Whereas teaching doesn't have that.It's almost that the more you care about the students, the more time you're putting in, but you're not necessarily going to get any financial reward for that.Dave: There's a saying in England, in the NHS, they say it runs on goodwill. They do take advantage of the empathy that staff have. I do think that is very similar in the teaching profession as well.Ross: I also wanted to ask you about the idea of more and more surveillance in classrooms. When both you and I started teaching, there was very little oversight. Maybe, your DoS would come in and observe you. I don't know, for me once a year if I was lucky. Maybe, it could last.[laughter]Dave: That explains a lot, Ross.Ross: It does, doesn't it? Now in offline teaching you often have cameras in classrooms. Even more interestingly, in online teaching, you have not just cameras -- because obviously everything is on camera.Everything that you do in every single class can be watched back both by parents and the people measuring the quality of classes, and more and more companies investing in AI to monitor teacher behavior.Generally in public life, at least, people have a real aversion to facial recognition, whatever authority's using technology to track their behavior, their movements, and everything. I've not really heard anyone talking about this with teaching.I'm not sure if I was a teacher now, full-time, especially an online teacher, and I knew that everything I said was being recorded and monitored with AI. I'm not sure how comfortable I would be with that.Dave: First of all, the first thing that popped into my head there is the idea of privacy and intention. Privacy concerns from the students, and I'm assuming they would all sign waivers so that their recordings could be used and reused for training purposes, and shown to other people. That's where the intention comes in.If all this data is used with ethically-sound principles in mind, I can't see too much of an issue with it. If you're using it to improve their learning, to personalize resources, materials, and lessons, so they're better able to learn, then that is the positive side.Ross: It'll be interesting to see how that changes as the technology moves on and we get to a point when technology knows every single word you've said in every single class to every single student. There's a record of that. There's even a record of every single facial expression that you might have made in every single class. I think all that's coming.Dave: The immediate problem with that, though, is assuming good intentions. You could still run into pitfalls.If you have, say, the ability for AI to recognize engagement through facial expression --Will it be leaning forward in the chair, smiling, eye contact with the camera, however you judge those metrics? That's equated with a good class because they're engaged and more likely to re-sign. That's a business metric rather than a learning metric.A teacher's rewarded for that, then you could go back to the idea of edutainment. The teacher is encouraged to be entertaining rather than help the student to learn. Interestingly, that data could also be used in aggregate to see what really works and what really doesn't in teaching.That is very exciting, but it has this dark side which I think we need to be very careful of. I've not really heard any discussions or anywhere else about the potential pitfalls of this. It's really nice that you're raising people's awareness now.Ross: You heard it here first, folks. [laughs]Ross: Thanks for coming on again, Dave. Do you want to give the blog a quick plug?Dave: Sure. If you want to read more about these topics, then please visit www.barefootteflteacher.com.Ross: Great. Dave, thanks again for coming on.Dave: You're very welcome.

Join Ross and Cullen in Part 2 of our I'm free Sydney tour  Listen in and read along with part 2 of our tour through Sydney with Ross and Cullen and then answer the questions below to either test your memory, your English, or both. https://forms.gle/6FBzYXe3Uh8DaQF77 Ross: You can see across Hyde Park, the big some areas, cathedral.  Now it's the second version of it. They started one in 1821. Unfortunately, it burnt down soon afterward. So they started this one in 1868, but they didn't finish it until 16 years ago. So it's about 130 years to get it all built. They wanted it finished off for the 2000 Olympics. A view across to the Cathedral with animal art making its way through the park  looking for an Ark.   Cullen: Thanks for joining me, Cullen here, we are about to kick off in part two about our with Ross, from www.imfree.com.au and we're making our way now towards the cathedral.    And then we're going to swing around towards Hyde Park and the Greek mythological figures. And we learn a little bit there about Sydney's early convict beginnings.   And then from there, we end up in the most magnificent lookout point towards Sydney Harbour.  So let's jump straight into it.   Ross: As this is all originally the edge of the township. This area was the site of the markets, but by 1898 they wanted something more formal and official for the market.    So they built this big grand Romanesque-style building, which you can see around us. The problem was the design of the building didn't work very well as a market. So right through its history, it had a number of different functions.  In one instance, it was proposed to be demolished entirely and replaced by car parking.   And thankfully that didn't happen in 1986, a Malaysian company took control of the building, restored it to what we can say to the state. That said, there are a few interesting and odd things around the building, in particular, the clocks.    So you might have noticed one as we came in, now hiding behind the sign. There's also a similar one, same spot down the other end of the building. Ross: It shows scenes some Australian history with, but this one shows scenes from British history.  So if you go up onto level two on the hour every hour, you can see beheadings of King Charles the first. And the whole head rolls off and everything.  It's a bit weird. Also, on the second level in the middle is a letter from Queen Elizabeth the second to Sydneysiders, which is nice, but we haven't opened it yet, and we're not meant to open it until 2085. So I don't like my chances of being around to hear that one read out and she could have written anything, but I get the feeling it's still going to be pretty........, but we'll have to wait and see ……. It was written in 1986 the idea is that it not be open for 99 years, so we get to keep waiting for me or that you can head around the corner here as we do  Look up at the dome above. It's really pretty. Ross: It was in this area, had our first official horse races. You don't find horses here anymore.  It's a place for people to escape from this city. Have picnics and a place for the big white birds with the big white beaks.  They seem to be avoiding us a little bit at the moment.  The Australian white ibis (Threskiornis Molucca) is a wading bird of the ibis family. In recent years has become an icon of popular culture, being regarded "with passion and wit,   You can see someone chasing one over there, uh, for them to steal your picnic.  So watch out for that one.  It's also, for part of our out and about art festival, which is on at the moment. Ross: it's all about getting art out into the streets rather than just in museums and galleries.  So that's what all the photographs we just wandered by.  They're all photographs that are meant to represent an Australian life, interesting elements of Australian life.    But there's an extension to that exhibition over in the diagonally opposite corner of Hyde Park, which is exactly the same all photographs about Australian life except they're taken by children. So it's cool to see their, uh, views on things.    But you can see across Hyde Park, the big St Mary's cathedral.  Now it's the second version of it. They started one in 1821. Unfortunately, it burnt down soon afterward.  So they started this one in 1868, but they didn't finish it until 16 years ago. It took them about 130 years to get it all built.  They wanted it finished off for the 2000 Olympics.   A view across to the Cathedral with animal art making its way through the park  looking for an Ark.   Ross: If you're interested in cathedrals, that can be one to have a wander around inside shows a strong Irish Catholic heritage in the early colony. Other Way beside us, he can say he's fountain, which is known as the Archibald fountain.    Now the thing that confuses me about it is it's meant to show Australia and France's ties and connections during world war one, but the artist has used Greek mythological figures to show off this fact.    Nonetheless, it's a beautiful fountain, a popular place for wedding photographs.  The story behind the fountain is it was donated to Sydney by a man named JF Archibald.    So JF Archibald was a fairly important person here in Sydney as he created a popular current affairs magazine known as the bulletin.    He was, however, also a character. He was a Francophile.    He absolutely loved France so much, so he changed his name from John Feltham,    to Jules Francois, and he went with a Bere and French, mustache, and everything.   Ross: Hence we end up with a fountain which is meant to show ties to the French, but whilst we're here in the quiet of Hyde park, I'll run through Sydney's history in six or seven minutes.    So tune in or out depending on your level of interest.    In 1770 the Englishman, a captain cook, sailed up the East coast of Australia. The Dutch sailed up the West coast in 1616, but we'd like to forget about that part.    Around that time, London's jails were full of convicts and prisoners.    Art in the park dazzles in the daylight of the cranes among the trees in Hyde Park The American war of independence meant they couldn't keep shipping them over there anymore.  They had to come up with somewhere new. So eventually, it was decided upon new South Wales or as it became Sydney.    So on the 26th of January, 1788, the first fleet of ships arrived here in Sydney with 700 convicts, 700 other people that said they only managed to beat a number of French ships by four days.   Ross: So we could have had a completely different history.    The other thing was they thought the land was completely uninhabited.    In actual fact, it was inhabited by the Gadigal tribe of Australian native Aborigines.    They'd been around for at least the past 30,000 years. So at first, there was some curiosity and interest, but then there were violent attacks and outbreaks of disease, which largely decimated the Australian native Aboriginal population.    So much so, unfortunately, they only represent one and a half percent of Sydney's population to this day.    So during those first few years, the colonies started to grow as a convict colony.    A couple of years after Sydney was founded, 75% of the population were convicts, so you can understand it wasn't a very law-abiding society.    The other issue they had was that of food and famine. There were reliant on most of their food coming out on ships from England. These ships are very often wrecked or lost at sea.   Ross: So in 1790 when a ship known as the Lady Juliana, came out with 220 women and not very much food, the largely male-dominated society at the time complained at this,   By 1792 free settlers started coming out here. Farming started to work. Sydney started to prosper by the 1840s they stopped sending convicts to the East coast of Australia. Guessing 150,000 was about enough.    Then by 1851, we had the first of a number of gold rushes, which really helped Sydney to prosper, but also helped Melbourne to prosper and hence sparked off the debate between the two cities as to who is more important, which hasn't finished yet.    So in 1901 the six States of Australia came together as a Federation under the coin. This was when the debate between the two cities was most aggressive because it had to be  decided who would be the capital of this new country Australia. Ross: Sydney was like, well, we're here first. We have the most heritage and old buildings.    Clearly, we should be the capital.   Melbourne was were young, were more hip, and European, where the biggest at the time where you should be the capital.   The two cities, we're both so stubborn. They fought so aggressively. They had to build a whole new city in between the two of them.    Canberra.    That said, Melbourne was the capital for the first 26 years because that's how long it took us to build Canberra.    But war has come to Sydney in the form of infiltrations and thinkings, but these days Sydney as a focus of world events, rugby world cup, Sydney Olympics, but I'll give you brains at rest, and we'll head this way out of Hyde Park.   Ross: You can see where we are standing where we started back at the town hall, the long thin queen Victoria building with all the little green dots on the roof.    Then we headed up pass Sydney tower, which pokes up above everything else there over into Hyde Park.    You can see the triangular area of greenery and grass.    That was the domain which I mentioned from the hospital hanging off the edge of the model is the new South Wales art gallery as well.    We headed down through Martin place past the round Australia square building and were now directly opposite this middle Wharf over the road, way behind in that little square building with two orange lines on the roof. That's custom house.    So from here, we'll head around into the rocks, which is the oldest surviving part of Sydney.    So the model obviously goes from the Harbor bridge, opera house, circular Quay, all they back down the other end to central station, but you can also see to this side, this area of water, which is known as Darling Harbor, which for want of a better way of explaining it. Sort of a touristy precinct has our wildlife, Sydney and sea life, Sydney aquarium, and the point beneath me here and directly across the water; you can see the curved roofs and the two walls of the national maritime museum as well.    Also, they have free fireworks in darling Harbor at 8:30 PM on Saturday nights. So it could be worth checking out tonight if you want to.    The other thing to mention about tonight's that our clock's jump forward by an hour tonight.  Date.  Yes. So you'll get one less hours late tonight — sorry guys.   Ross: Um, but yeah, also, it can be kind of hard to photograph because of the reflection. If you really want a picture of it, they have three postcards, but we can continue back at down here.   Cullen: And great to have you with us joining us are on that snapshot as we walked around Sydney on the most beautiful day and really giving some insights into that tour.    And of course, you can get more details from I'm free. www.imfree.com.au, and you can tell we were there as we were going through the change of daylight savings. And so a lot of people had been out the night before. It was, yeah, it was kind of interesting.   Anyway, look, um, I guess one of the other things that it's important to know is that a really Ross and many of his guides are out there sort of rain, hail, thunder sun. The sun will shine and a really every day, and there's no need to book. Um, this is the perfect place where you can just turn up sort shortly, shortly before,  the tour starts, and you can find your local guide there in a bright green t-shirts.   So anyway, with that, we are also going to add in our memory test As a form inside this podcast.   Cullen: For those of our listeners want to test, test the memory,  And or there comprehension if English is your second language and you can get more details on more podcasts at eattmag.com Thanks for joining us it's great to have you.  Thank you, everybody, for your four and five-star reviews on iTunes and Stitcher and Spreaker.  It's really a great, the whole team is very, um, wrapped whenever that happens.  We just wanted to say that. And of course, you can join us for our next podcast is we continue a journey around Australia. And please don't forget to click the link inside this podcast so you can see the images that we took during the day as well. All right. We'll catch you in the next one, cheers.  Join us in part one of the podcast with Ross and Cullen. https://eattmag.com/join-cullen-in-part-one-of-the-im-free-sydneys-sight-seeing-tour/  Group bookings can be made at least 24 hours in advance. Groups of 10 or more can register with www.imfree.com.au at least 24 hours in advance.  To maintain the quality of our regularly scheduled tours, the I'm Free tour team will need to organize you a separate private tour.  And full terms and conditions can be found on the I'm Free Tours private tours https://www.imfree.com.au/sydney/private-tours/ web page. WHEELCHAIRS: The Sydney Sights tour is wheelchair friendly. Find out more about I'm Free tours in both Sydney and Melbourne and  https://www.imfree.com.au/aboutus/ More travel podcasts can also be found here https://eattmag.com/travel/ Loading…  

 https://discord.gg/Mmn2FPW Come talk to us on Podcast Junkie discord server. https://discord.gg/napQ3Cb   (Beeping noise, buttons being pushed.)   [AI voice] Reference number, 38.42.456.32, playback commence…   [Random person] It was like I told him, no one gets there on their own. You need a team of people who can handle certain aspects for you…   [Saris] No, no, no.   (Beeping…)   [AI voice] Reference number, 16.29.394.46, playback commence….   [Jarratt] I'm not sure. He seems a bit shaken. I have faith however, he'll be able to take necessary measures to procure the desired results…   [Saris] Pfft, whatever.   (Beeping…)   [AI voice] Reference number 89.34.672.96, playback commence…   [Saris] You're right Sorrel...all will be revealed soon enough.   (Beeping…)   [AI voice] Reference number 23.45.185.87, playback commence…   [Ross] It would appear so. I don't need to remind you how dissatisfied I am with Tharins interruptions do I? Then take care of it…   [Police officer] Hey! Hey you! Don't move!   (Man running away...policing running up to machine.)   [Police officer] James Corrin is signed into this terminal.   [Police officer 2] I think we'd better call commissioner Grady.   [Ross] Whatever you have to do...TAKE CARE OF IT. (Call ends.)   (End scene)   [Narrator] In lieu of recent events, I dare not call this city, a fine one. Never in her history has an Enforcer abandoned his post as the protector of the law and gone full revolt. I fear my friends, I fear for the future, I fear for this people, I fear for this city...the city Within the walls.   (Music)   [James] Hello   [Tharin] James?   [James] Yes Tharin?   [Tharin] Mind telling me why you were sneaking around, looking up old phone records in the catacombs?   [James] What? What are you talking about?   [Tharin] Well...either it was you or someone has your access code.   [James] It definitely wasn't me.   [Tharin] Then apparently we have a problem. Who could have access to you code?   [James] I have no idea. I don't have it written down anywhere. The only people that would know it is you and…   [Tharin] Ok then, we need to find him...and we need to find him, now.   [James] Why would he be doing this?   [Tharin] Not sure, but he's beginning to make me very angry. I'm coming to your depot. I'll be there shorty.   (End scene)   [Jones] Ah, miss Harris. It's been a while. What have you been up to?   [Aleen] Why can't you just leave me alone Jones?   [Jones] You and I both know why I can't just leave you alone miss Harris. You're an important asset to the Theosin. Now...I hate to interrupt your day, but I need an update. What do you have for me?   [Aleen] Nothing...I have nothing for you.   [Jones] Miss Harris...do not lie to me.   [Aleen] I'm not, I don't have any information for you.   [Jones] I want you to listen to something miss Harris. I want you to listen closely. Tell me...is this not you?   (Jones plays Aleen some audio of her discussing the case with Tharin)   And then there's this one…   (Jones plays more audio)   [Aleen] How did you?....   [Jones] I told you, we're everywhere.    [Aleen] You have me bugged? (Aleen begins to get angry about the situation) Why even call me then? If you have me bugged, why do you...even…   [Jones] You need to decide. Are you going to continue to help us? Or are you willing to face a panel of councilmen, who may very well put you to death.   [Aleen] But...I can't…   [Jones] Miss Harris...we did not ask you to have the kind of relationship with Tharin, that you've developed. Your job was simple. Get close to Tharin and gather information from him. Now either play by the rules...or face the consequences of your past.   [Aleen] I can't, I can't just…   [Jones] The choice is yours...goodbye miss Harris.   [Aleen] (Breath of anger. Phone beeps) Sky?   [Sky] Aleen ...wow, it's been a long time. How are you?   [Aleen] I need to talk to Swipe. I have a problem and I need his help.   [Sky] Sure, hold on...Aleen is...everything ok?   [Aleen] No, everything is definitely not ok.   (End scene)   [Narrator] As Aleen deals with her chaotic situation, Tharin finds yet another, for himself. Approaching James's depot, Salistine informs him of the situation.   [Salistine] Arriving at southern policing force complex. It would appear Tharin, that a large group is gathered outside the front door. Would you like me to land on the roof pad? Or in the street Sir?   [Tharin] What? Land in the street Salistine, we need to figure out what's going on down there.   [Salistine] Very well Tharin. Proceeding to street.   [Narrator] Salistine lands on the wet street below. Tharin exits vehicle and people are yelling. Cautiously he approaches the crowd. A mob of people is something Tharin, nor James or any officer for that matter, has ever seen before. He slowly makes his way up the steps trying to figure out what the people are yelling. Finally he realizes they are yelling "innocent". He raises his hands to address the crowd.   [Tharin] Everyone just calm down.   [Random guy] Hey look, it's our fearless commissioner, Tharin Grady. The one who killed an innocent man...get him!   (Crowd yells and James grabs Tharin and pulls him inside.)   [Tharin] Goodness. James. What in the world is going on? Who are these people?   [James] I don't know, they just showed up.   [Tharin] And you didn't try and disperse them?   [James] I tried, but they attacked me like they attacked you.   [Tharin] Well, we're going to handle this right now.   [Narrator] Tharin holds out his hand and his glove forms a glob in the palm of his hand. That glob then forms a 9 millimeter pistol. He grabs the door and flings it open.   (Gun shots.)   [Tharin] Now listen up. You are all committing high treason against the council of this fine city. You now have two choices. Either go home and calm down or be arrested for treason and face exile, where you will receive your wish, of a life free of the council and the gratitudes of your fellow citizens. Do you all understand?   [Random guy 2] Ya, we understand...but don't think for a second that this is over. The council has lied too many times.   [Tharin] Arrest that man...anyone else wish try their luck before the jury?...no? Good. I promise you all, things will begin to get back to normal soon. Until then we all...are going to have to endure this bit of inconvenience. Now go home and get some sleep.   (End scene)   [Narrator] Tharin, unbelievable angered at this point, heads to the council building to talk to his father, when his father receives an interesting phone call. It would seem Gypsy would like to add a bit of light in this time of dark chaos. Let's listen in shall we?   [Gypsy] Councilman, how's my favorite pretentious old man doing?   [Jarrett] I see no pretentious old men around here Gypsy. Now, what could you possibly want?   [Gypsy] What? The overlord of the underground can't call the devil to say hello from time to time?   [Jarrett] Enough games Gypsy. There must be a reason you called.   [Gypsy] Alright, alright, keep your suspenders on. There is infact a reason I called.    (Bit of a pause, to which Jarrett becomes impatient...just another game Gypsy likes to play with people.)   [Jerrett] Well? Are you going to tell….   [Gypsy] So, the reason I called is because I have some info you might be interested in. Some info that might help us both keep our positions within this rotting cesspool of a city. It appears councilman, there's a mole in the system of the council. They've been feeding your enemy, our now mutual enemy, information on the council's moves against them.   [Jarrett] That's impossible.   [Gypsy] Is it? I'll be sending the info your way. Once I have all the evidence in order, that is.   [Jarrett] Who is this "mole"?   [Gypsy] It's a surprise silly. You'll see soon enough. I just wanted to give you a heads up before I sent the file your way. Let's just say this person is in a position that gives them the ability to listen...as if they were just a fly on the wall ...Anyway, that's all for now, tootles.   [Tharin] Oh father, thank the council your here.   [Jarrett] Tharin? What's happened? You look terribly distraught.   [Tharin] I was just over at southern policing complex. There was a crowd of unruly, ill mannered degenerates protesting. I had to fire shots in the air to calm them down.   [Jarrett] Things are worse than I suspected.   [Tharin] Yes well, don't feel too bad I didn't see this coming either. I need more men. If people plan to...I don't know, rise up…then I need more men.   [Jarrett] Yes, yes of course, whatever you need. (Pause) I highly doubt a public address would have any effect right now.   [Tharin] No! It would have absolutely zero effect. These people...I mean just who do they think they are? I will gun down everyone of them if I'm forced. The city does not need people like that reproducing.    [Jarrett] I'm upset as well Tharin, but we need to keep calm and handle these matters as delicately as possible.   [Tharin] Delicate, has gotten us nowhere. I'm done with delicate. I'm going to go talk to Ross.   [Jarrett] About what?   [Tharin] I'm going to offer him an ultimatum...results...or death.   [Jarrett] Now Tharin, I think you need to calm down.   [Tharin] I'll calm down when the city calms down. Goodbye father.   [Jarrett] Tharin...Tharin!   [Narrator] As Tharin exits his father's office in a rage, the printer begins sending over Gypsys report.    [Jarrett] No, no it can't be...THARIN! Oh my council.   (Scene ends)   (Phone sound)   [Saris] No need to say anything, I just want you to listen. I know who you really are...boss. It's funny, I never thought it'd be you...you really are brilliant. Just not as brilliant as you think you are. Anyway, you have 24 hours to relieve yourself of your position within the city and retreat to the huts of the scrappers outside the city walls...or die. Simple enough right? Goodbye for now old friend. Oh, and don't worry about the commissioners...or Dayton...or Jones, I plan on taking them out, before I take care of you so,...your welcome.   (Scene ends)   [Salistine] Incoming call from councilman Grady, do you accept?   [Tharin] Absolutely not!   [Salistine] Very well...incoming call from Ross Ajin, do you accept.   [Tharin] Why yes. I'd, much like to talk to that swine right now.   [Salistine] Patching through now.   [Ross] Commissioner, where are you?   [Tharin] On my way over to kill you Ross.   [Ross] Well that'll have to wait, I finally have it.   [Thatin] Have what?   [Ross] The signal...I've found Saris.   [Tharin] What? It's about time Ross, you may have just won your life, for another day. I'll be there in a minute.   [Ross] Hurry commissioner, we don't have much time.   (End)

Technology in Language Education Part II Fad? (with Ray Davila) – TranscriptTracy Yu: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to our podcast. Today, we have the second part of our conversation "Technology in Classroom: Fact or Future in Education." We have Ray...Ross Thorburn: Davila. [laughs]Tracy: Hi, Ross. Welcome back.Ray Davila: Good to be back, guys. [laughs]Ross Thorburn: If you hadn't listened to the first part, go back and check out last week's episode where we talked about the advantages of technology in education. This episode, we're going to talk about the disadvantages.Ross: I'm going to kick things off and say that one of the biggest problems with technology is just overuse and over‑reliance on it. Just to pick a really simple example is what we called interactive whiteboards.There's so many things you cannot do on them, you can just do with a traditional whiteboard, and companies that I've worked for, that will remain nameless, invested far more in putting interactive whiteboards in the classroom than putting qualified teachers in the classroom.Ray: I'm going to agree with you on this one. It's an over‑reliance on education institutions as well of using technology as a gimmick. There is this lack of this human aspect that I can't miss. One of the things that I remember in the school was there was these moments where you could have technology not working.The Internet is not working or the printer is not working.Ray: I liked to look at those as opportunities. Opportunities where teachers are going into a class, somewhat unplugged, and just trying to find alternatives. A lot of times, I remember a lot of teachers giving feedback and saying that class actually went really well.Ross: To go back to what you're saying earlier, Ray, it's almost like some companies try to use technology to teacher‑proof education. It's like, it doesn't matter if you had a good teacher or rubbish teacher, we've got technology, computers, and algorithms. We're going to make sure everyone's going to learn, so we don't really have to worry so much about recruiting good teachers.Tracy: If you're talking about your best teacher, everybody have different choices, have a different reason why chose that teacher, and they have their own characteristics.Ray: That was something that I had an issue with last week's discussion about the advantages of technology in how you had mentioned the facial recognition. Facial recognition being used in a manner that where you can use it to detect things like the student talking time, even things like their participation in the class, or correct usage of vocabulary or grammar or pronunciation.Even to the point of as a way of detecting the student's mood and their level of attention. One thing we need to be careful of, making sure that we're not reducing that human element in the learning process to something that's just a mere algorithm. I think that there are other elements to a student than just points on their face to measure their mood.Tracy: I totally agree.Ross: That's the other danger with that is that if that's what you can measure, then that's the thing that people will pay attention to. It's like the old saying, what gets measured gets managed. Make sure you measure the right thing. Therefore, you can do these measures, student talking time and how often the student smiled, then guess what? The teachers are going to be encouraged to do in class.Tracy: These are something supplementary that maybe can help you to find out more information about the learning process, but it shouldn't be the tool to determine if that's a good teacher or that's a bad class. Something like that. That's really dangerous to judge something based on that.Ross: Another issue with this is that, with not just facial recognition but with so much stuff being on camera now, I think they're truly going to put people off experimenting in the class and trying things that, maybe this is going to work, maybe this is going to be disaster but hey, who cares? I'll try it.If everything you do is on camera and can be watched back by parents or students, and used as evidence that you're incompetent, I'm probably just going to stick more to what I've been told to do, or play it safe, rather than try things that would challenge their status quo.Ross: What do you guys think about this idea that maybe within a few years' time language learning will be pointless? At the moment, we have pretty good translation stuff. Google, YouTube can do it fairly accurately for free. Subtitles, automatically, you can go from speech to text. You can go from text of another language to text of another language.For quite a long time, maybe for about 20 years, we've been able to get computers that read stuff out loud. It doesn't seem to be a huge leap from where we are now, to me being able to speak on the phone, just like in "Star Trek," and it comes out in a different language. Can you see that changing language learning?Just being like, "Why would I spend 10, or 15 years, or 20 years, or just the rest of my life working and learning another language when I can just download an app?"Ray: Now, just from the press of a button, we can get everything done, rather than us actually having to put in a lot of work. The work, it's the trial and error. It's the process that really helps with the learning process. If we are eliminating that for convenience' sake, then technology could very well make ESL obsolete.Tracy: There are people, probably, difficult for them to learn new language. I'm thinking from my mom's age. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's going to be very challenging for them, and they will say, "What's the point for me? I'm Asian trying so hard learning a new language, but I only use it occasionally."On the other hand, I'm not sure the accuracy in everything is it really, especially that's something you would like to express? I'm thinking how can the translator 100 percent interpret your feeling, your emotion, and how you'd like to say that in what kind of tone of voice. It's always going to be so different.For example, English, if you say something, was the tone going up or going down, that's probably means different things in particular context. That's something that would be quite interesting to see if it's going to bring a lot of convenience or a lot of trouble [laughs] for people.Ross: What my personal prediction for this is it is going to affect language learning for adults, but I don't think it's going to affect language learning for kids so much. I was thinking about this. Most of the subjects that we learn in school are not very useful, right?Biology, or physics, or history. You could just google any of those things that you spend all that time at school studying. I think that whatever the point of education at school is, it's often not really that we memorize all this knowledge and we use it in our later lives.The same is probably true of language learning. It will stay in state schools because for the same reason everything else is there. It's just that it's always been there.I can see for adults if thinking about I'm not going to spend all this money on a language course to help me in this particular situation? Maybe if I could just download an app. Maybe it's not actually worth it because there is an easier way out.Ray: I think for sure that one of the things that happens with new things in innovations in this course of it being developed, this is the new fad. Everyone is talking about tech and how we can utilize it in a bunch of different things.The problem is, that sometimes we need to sit back and just reflect, analyze its impact overall on the industry, on the students themselves. I think that, again, it goes back into things that are also important in the learning process like social skills, learning how to be a team player. These things are we considering how we're going to implement and teach these soft skills in the process?Or are we just focusing a lot on how students can win and how we can entertain them? A lot of times we are trying to create new experiences of creating a new reality, a digital reality. I wonder the long‑term effects it might have on how people associate with each other in reality. If we are focusing so much on a digital world, what happens to the real world?Ross: The big issue here with technology is not that it's bad but just that where it fits in this so‑called ladder of love. How important is it compared to other things, like human connection, or teacher training, or teaching the right syllabus, or making sure that your syllabus has authentic language or any of those other things?The danger with all of the things that we've been talking about or we're talking about the previous episode is yeah, overuse, over prioritization. More money and time gets invested in the technology than in any number of other things that we might prioritize over technology.Ray: The thing that we haven't really touched about, either in this podcast or in the one before, was is technology and its use with teacher training itself. I wondered, again, especially with older teachers, is some of them are just not as comfortable and confident with technology, and how that's going to play a role in the future.Will, we just have to sift out all of the teachers who aren't computer literate and competent with technology, or is it going to be something where knowledge in technology is more important than language knowledge?Ross: That's an interesting point. I remember watching, when I was a Director of Studies, watching a new teacher. This guy, he must have been 15 years older than me. Watching him with a class of 16 seven‑year‑olds. This guy was trying to turn on and calibrate an interactive live port. It's pandemonium breaking out behind him.There was one little boy who was trying to tell him what to do. He was like, "Shut up. Sit in your seat." That added nothing to that person's class.When it comes to any kind of materials, a key principle is to make sure that you're always adding something to everyone's class, and you're never really taking things away. With those things that are difficult to use, you're really just creating more of a burden, some sort of cognitive overload, perhaps, for some, if not a lot of teachers.Teaching is already multi‑tasking where you're thinking about, "Oh, do I have enough time? Should I end this activity in a few moments? Have I met the aims of this lesson?" All those things.As soon as you add in some of the clunky technology, perhaps, you're just making the teacher's job even more complicated. Obviously, as soon as you do that, you're distracting the teacher from the other things that they could be doing where it should be helping the students even more.Ray: I know a few teachers, then other people who have confessed that they have failed their practical blocks because of technology going awry and it's just...Ross: Can I just say, as a former diploma assessor,. I don't think I ever saw anyone fail a class because technology went wrong.[laughter]Ray: I think it's not the technology went wrong, but because they invested so much of their lesson to that, and because it didn't work.Ross: That's almost a nice micro cause, isn't it?[laughter]Ross: It's all conversation, Ray, right? Those people made the mistake of investing all of their effort into technology and it didn't do what they expected it to do. Maybe that's the overall danger with the industry. We're in danger of investing too much time and resources into something that might work, but maybe it might not work as well.Ray: I think it was Voltaire who once said something that stuck with me. It was, "If you do not accept the changes of your time, perhaps you will miss the greatest part."I think that, to a certain extent, one of the things that we should be aware of is that technology is happening, whether we like it or not. That development is a part of culture. It's part of society at this point. We might as well just start seeing how we can utilize it and take the advantages, and try to make the best of it.Tracy: Thanks very much for listening to these two podcasts. Thanks very much, Ross, on our podcast.Ray: Of course. It was my pleasure. [laughs]Tracy: See you guys. Bye.Ross: Thanks, everyone. Bye‑bye.

What Have You Changed Your Mind About? With Carol Lethaby, Dave Weller, Karin Xie, Matt Courtois, Paul Nation Simon Galloway - TranscriptTracy Yu: Hi, everyone.Ross Thorburn: Welcome to the podcast. This, as you probably noticed, is our third‑anniversary episode. To celebrate, we're doing a special long podcast, the longest one we've ever done. We've got six special guests for you, and all of them are going to answer the same question. That question is, "What have you changed your mind about?"Tracy: First, we've got Dave Weller and Simon Galloway. Dave currently works as an online diploma and TESOL tutor and blogs at barefootteflteacher.com. Simon runs his distance learning courses for teachers and managers. Both of them have been on our podcast multiple times before.Ross: The second up is Paul Nation, emeritus professor in the School of Linguistics and Applied Language Studies at Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand. Paul's one of the most influential writers and researchers in vocabulary acquisition in the world. You'll have heard him before in our second‑anniversary episode about reading last year.Tracy: The third is Matt Courtois, who currently works as an academic director in a young learner language school, and Karin Xie, who works as an academic manager at Trinity College London in China. You might remember Karin from our previous episode about applying learning, and Matt from episodes about observations, minimalism, and also teaching writing.Ross: In the fourth segment, we'll hear from Carol Lethaby, who's a teacher, a teacher trainer, and materials writer based in the US and Mexico. You might remember Carol from our episode about neuroscience. You can learn more from her on her website, www.clethaby.com.Tracy: Finally, Ross and myself will talk about what we have changed our minds about over the years.Ross: Great. Enjoy the podcast, the longest one ever.David Weller & Simon GallowayRoss: Dave Weller, Simon Galloway, you've both been involved in English education for what, 12, 15 years?Dave Weller: It's 15 years for me.Simon Galloway: Same, pretty much.Ross: What have you changed your mind about? There must be one thing, Dave.[laughter]Dave: You're talking about since the beginning of my teaching?Ross: It could be at any point at all.Dave: The biggest thing I've changed my mind about since I began ‑‑ for myself, and for students, trainees, and everything ‑‑ is I used to think in quite a fixed mindset. I used to think, "Well, some teachers are good, some teachers aren't. And some students are smart and some students are not."The more I do this the more I realize what it's really about. Attitude and effort are going to be the things that make the difference. It's a bit of a cliché because I know everyone starts to think that way these days. Is it a bit of a...Ross: I don't know. I think that's still true to an extent, isn't it? I'm not sure. I ultimately do think in those terms that, for trainees for example. You find some at the beginning of the course, and you probably think these guys are the stars, the A‑People, the B‑People, and the C‑People.I almost think that fixed mindset, growth mindset is one of those things that I know as a fact but I'm not sure the extent to which I'd genuinely apply it or really believe in it deep down. Have you seen courses where people who you thought they were the weakest people at the beginning, ended up becoming the strongest at the end?Dave: I don't think the courses long enough for that, but there are definitely teachers that start at about that level and end about that level because they're not really trying to grow. There are other people that actually use the effort.I can see that through my distance learning courses, too. There are some people that start with a pretty bad first assignment and by the end, they're way up here. There are other people that just...Ross: I think of people on diplomas that we run. We, for example, observe them at the beginning before they got on the course. Some people that we thought, "They're not good enough to get on the course." There was a big kerfuffle. Eventually, they got on the course and they did really well.I've also seen the opposite of people that we said, "Yep you'll have no problems on this course," and the people go on to fail.Dave: Yeah, and I wonder if actually what we're saying to them is even affecting that. If we tell them, "You're going to do great," then that actually fosters a fixed mindset in them.Simon: It goes back to what we were saying earlier about praising the effort. If you tell someone, "You'll have no problem in this course" you, in a way, set them up to fail. Maybe they won't put the effort in as much because they think they're intrinsically or naturally intelligent enough or they're already at that skill level ‑‑ they won't need to put as much effort ‑‑ and they struggle.Dave: It certainly happens with some people.Ross: It's almost like there's an unspoken assumption that these people are going to put in X amount of effort. That's the bit that doesn't get said. "You'll be fine. You're going to do really well in this course."Dave: Assuming that you spend 10 hours a week?Ross: Yeah, but a lot of people don't know. Dave, let me guess. You didn't used to believe in learning styles but now you do?[laughter]Dave: No, actually. I think that when I was a new teacher, perhaps one year or two years in, I was always so certain of everything. On my original course, I took everything as gospel. I held my opinions so strongly, and I was so sure about everything. I knew I had a lot to learn, but what I did already know, I was certain that this is just the way things are.Since then, I've changed my mind and been exposed to new ideas, new evidence. I've changed everything so many times over the years. I can't remember who said it, it was something like, "You have strong ideas, held lightly," something like that. The longer I'm in this industry, the more I fully agree with that.I fully believe in what I do and how I do it, but if you show me some evidence or a compelling study, or show me a different way of doing things, I'll willingly change and try something new. That willingness to change, I guess that's [inaudible 06:13] . My willingness to change and to be shown to be wrong, I actually welcome now.Ross: That sounds like a perfect description of the Dunning‑Kruger effect. After your cert course, you believed a hundred percent in everything, like it was the gospel. The more you learned, the less confident you've become in those things.Do you think there's a problem then in how we present information to trainees on cert courses? I always find that maybe it's at diploma level that we maybe encourage people to think critically about the things that are being shown to them. The emphasis on introductory courses is, "Here's what you need to just be OK in the classroom and survive your first year."Maybe we're giving people false confidence. Maybe the more effective learner autonomy, long‑term strategy to teach people is, "I'm going to show you these things, these principles, but you also need to be able to question them."Simon: That goes back to something I've said before. You can take it to the wider education industry as a whole. In the language class, should we even be teaching language? Should we just be teaching skills and applying motivation? If you give someone the motivation to learn and the skills to be able to do so independently, then they're inevitably going to be able to learn a language.It's the same with any course, almost. I think the days of the tutor being gatekeeper to information are long gone with the advent of the Internet. Sure, a curated course is much easier to work through step‑by‑step because you can trust the authority of the source. It's broken down and spoon‑fed to you in a certain way.I do think that, in most courses that we run, there is that lack of teaching meta‑skills at the beginning or teaching to think critically. I think every course assumes that a course before has done that, even going back to initial education from 5 to 18. It's something, I think, missing in that, but that's a much larger issue.Dave: Yeah, we assume that everyone's got a degree or whatever, so they must know this. Then the university course, "They must have learned it before."[laughter]Dave: At secondary school, "They must have learned this at primary school."Simon: They thought, "Oh, parents must have...Dave: "The parents must have taught them that."[laughter]Simon: It might make a flip‑side argument. We're saying this from a position of 10, 15 years in the industry. As a new teacher, I can still vividly remember going, "Just tell me what to do next. I just want to get through my next lesson. I want to survive."I think it is a responsibility for initial teacher training courses to be able to provide that to teachers, so they can go into the class with the confidence that the learners will probably learn something. If you just give them a bunch of meta‑skills to work with, and then throw them into a highly pressured environment, they're going to fall to pieces. They need to have something to fall back on.Ross: Maybe there's an advantage of the Dunning‑Kruger effect. If you know almost nothing and you're really confident in it, that will overcome your lack of skill. If you're a new teacher and you said, "I'm telling you all these things, but maybe they're true. Maybe they're not."You maybe go into the classroom, and you wouldn't have the confidence to make up for your lack of skills. Maybe that Dunning‑Kruger effect, maybe there is some benefit to having that and believing in something even when you don't know much about it ‑‑ as a new teacher.Dave: It is to some extent, but every time, just keep on reminding the trainees that they can make their own...Simon: "This is the best way to do something. Or is it?[laughter]Dave: Just keep on pushing for deeper questions, like, "Was that effective in your lesson today? How do you know that? What real evidence were you going on? I saw the student do this. Why do you think that was? Do you think the same thing would work in another class?"Simon: What's the point of life? Why are you here?[laughter]Simon: Yes. Is anything even worth it?Ross: It's interesting. There must be a point where it would become counter‑productive and you just end up with...[crosstalk]Dave: Yeah, there's in so much doubt.Simon: No, it's true. Again, as a good trainer or a good manager, you should be able to spot when your teachers are ready, if they're not been challenged. When I was at [inaudible 10:14] you could see teachers that are ready to be pushed to the next level. People reach plateaus, and you could see when somebody goes, "Well I know everything now."Ross: That's a good point.Simon: "Actually, you don't. [laughs] Let me introduce you to some new ideas, like differentiation in the classroom or some of the higher‑level teaching skills." They go, "Oh wow! I had no idea you could do this." When their ability to implement what they know reaches what they know, then that's the time to give them more knowledge so they then turn that knowledge into skill.Dave: I like this idea of that plateau. If someone's already on like a slope, you don't want to stick them on a much steeper slope just for the sake of it.[crosstalk]Dave: ...just pick a Sisyphean boulder something. But if you're on a plateau already, you've got to get them on the slope.Ross: If you've had a trainee at the beginning of the course who's really struggling to give instructions, and you're like, "OK, here's a three‑step way of doing it," tell them in simple language, model it, and then ask questions.Dave: Show them, tell them, ask them, give them, Ross.Ross: Right, but then you wouldn't want to do afterward, "Well, when would that not be effective?" Do you know what I mean? You're just trying to get that person to that basic level.Simon: When you're observing them, you wouldn't want to sidle up to them and, "Sorry, um, you know that, according to Vygotsky, that's actually [inaudible 11:27] what you shouldn't have really done that there. This kid's ZPD is way off.[laughter]Ross: That might be too much.Paul Nation Ross: Hi, Paul. Welcome back. You published your first paper on language teaching in about 1970. You've had a very long career as well as a fascinating one. Can you tell us what's one thing that you've changed your mind about during your time from being a teacher all the way up to the present?Paul Nation: First of all, I like to think I always got it right from the beginning, [laughs] but I guess the main change that has occurred to me is the idea of the roles of the teacher and how the role of the teacher as a teacher becomes an important role but not the major role of the teacher.I say there's four or five roles of the teacher, and I always forget one of them. You know the number one role is the planner. The number two role is the organizer of activities and opportunities to learn. The third role's something like the trainer who trains the learners in strategies to learn, vocabulary and strategies to deal with the language learning.The fourth role would be the teacher as the tester who's giving learners feedback about their progress and showing them how much vocab they know and so on. The fifth role is the teacher as the teacher who actually gets up in front of the class or guides them through an intensive reading passage or something like that.I think that those roles are sort of ranked in the order of planner, organizer, trainer, tester, and teacher. That probably would be the major change I've come to during my reading of research, doing research, and so on. On the other hand, I also have to say that just about every PhD student I've had, and I've had a lot, have proved me wrong about the topic that they were working with.That's virtually without exception, sometimes proved me spectacularly wrong. I remember, for example, Teresa Chung doing research on technical vocabulary. I'd said in the first edition of "Learning Vocabulary in Another Language" that technical vocabulary probably made up about 5 percent of the running words in text.When she did her research, she found it made between 20 and 30 percent of the running words in the text, which is quite a bit different, one word out three compared to one word out of twenty. [laughs] That was sort of major changes, once people have done the research, to say, "Wow! I think I'm going to step back and change my ideas about that."I would say that the biggest one is the idea of you need a balanced approach to vocabulary learning and you need to see that teaching is a part of that, but only a part of it. You've got to make sure that the others are there. I would've given a much greater role to teaching very early on in my career.Matt Courtois Ross: Matt, what's something that you have changed your mind about, and why did you change your mind?Matt Courtois: What haven't I changed my mind about?[laughter]Matt: Looking back to my first year in Korea compared to now, I don't think there's a single belief that I still have that I had then. The biggest underlying thing that has changed in me was, at first when I was a teacher, I kind of thought the more knowledge I had about the language I could acquire, the better teacher I would become.I actually don't think that's really necessary. Being able to discuss any grammar point at the drop of the hat to me is not what makes a good teacher anymore. Having some of the skills to draw that from people, to run a good activity, and to facilitate improvement is much more essential to being a teacher than just knowing the subject matter.Ross: Can you remember when you changed your mind about that? Was it a long process?[crosstalk]Matt: It was a really long process. I taught in Korea and Russia, and probably my first year within China, I looked at teaching language in this way. Within my first year of teaching at my last company, there's a job opening for a content developer, content writer, something like that.I remember I took one of my favorite grammar skills lessons ‑‑ I think it was about the passive voice ‑‑ and I submitted it to the manager of this department. He sent me back an email that was three pages full of criticisms. The most positive things he said were basically about some of the animations that I had in my PPT...[laughter]Matt: ...not about the content of this deep analysis of the passive voice. He was just saying, "The method in what you're doing it, it's not about the grammar itself. It's how you present it," and stuff like this. I think I improved so much when that manager sent me such a critical feedback.I started approaching teaching grammar from, "What context am I going to use?" rather than having this giant scope of understanding the passive voice, every tense in English, rather than looking at myself as somebody who analyzes language. That's not my job.So many English teachers talk about how being prescriptive is so bad, but they're teachers. That's what they're doing. They're not writing dictionaries. They're not contributing to the corpus. We're not describing the language here. We're taking what those guys have and then presenting it to students in a way that they can practice it.Once I got over that mindset that, "I'm holding the key to the language, and I'm the person who's defining the language," and said, "No, I'm coming up with situations and facilitating situations in which they can use it," I think I improved a lot as a teacher and a trainer.Karin XieKarin: Teachers used to just think, "Well, my English is good, so I can teach English," or "I'm not confident in teaching English because I'm not confident in my English." Language awareness, like your knowledge in phonology, lexis, and grammar, they are important and are very helpful. It's just the teaching skills, they are very important, and they should be emphasized more.Ross: You need both, don't you?Karin: Yeah.Ross: If you don't know any English and you're the best teacher in the world, you can't teach English. Equally, if you're amazing in English and you can't teach at all, that's not going to work, either. You need a bit of both. At some point, especially for lower levels, the knowledge of English becomes less important than the skill to put it across.Karin: Because I was trained in the CertTESOL, DipTESOL way, I always believed that I need to build the classes around the learners, and I need to train teachers a reflective coaching way. I believed that was more effective than any other ways.Recently, I just come to realize that not necessarily, and use that as good challenge or good chance for me to try out different things, or give people different options and see how things goes. It's not one way better than the others. It's just there are different ways of doing things.Ross: This is one of the dangers of just working in one environment for a very long time. You're often only exposed to one way of doing things. You get transposed to another place, and you automatically just assume, "Well this isn't the right way to do things. This is wrong. This isn't the most effective." But is that true? Is there any evidence?Karin: Exactly. I think all the things that I've tried out shaped how I do training and classes now. They're definitely not the same as when I was in the old environment for such a long time.Carol Lethaby Tracy: Hi CarolRoss: Hi Carol. I think you're very well known for integrating ideas from research into your practice. We'd love to hear from you about what was one of the most important or the most interesting things that you've changed your mind about over the years.Carol Lethaby: I think the example that came to mind here certainly was not using the mother tongue in the classroom. I did my PGCE in the UK in learning to teach French and German. This was mid‑'80s, and the communicative approach in foreign language teaching then had a big hold on the profession.We were explicitly taught not to use English at all when we were teaching French or teaching German. Of course, I carried this on when I started teaching English. I did my Delta and the same thing, it came up all along the way. I remember it seemed to go against my intuition, but as I know now, don't always rely on your intuitions, because they might not be right.I actually did some research into this as a part of my master's degree here in Mexico and found out that, when you ask learners, one of the things I asked them in a piece of research I did, was, "Do you want your teacher to have English as their first language? Do you want your teacher to be a native speaker of English?" a list of pedigrees.The one that came out top at all levels, especially at beginner level, was they don't care if their teacher is a native speaker. They want a teacher who can speak their first language, who knows their first language.It made me think about, "Why then are we telling people you don't need to speak the learners' first language, you don't need to know the learners' first language, and you don't use the learners' first language. It's better not to"? Obviously, I was reading the history of English language teaching, Phillipson's Linguistic Imperialism.You realize how this happened and how this idea was transmitted and perpetuated. Now, knowing more about the brain and how we learn, I really don't believe that. I am convinced that we need to use the learner's first language in order to teach them another language.Ross: How would that look like in the classroom then, Carol? Do you have any examples of what that might look like with a group of students?Carol: I remember trying to teach the difference between first and second conditionals when I was teaching the younger Mexicans in Guadalajara here. There was this explanation that I was trying to work with them with levels of probability. It depended if you were an optimist or a pessimist whether you would use the first conditional or the second conditional.How confusing that was and how unsatisfactory that was for a learner, I'm sure. Now I would just tell those learners, "This is how you say it. The first conditional corresponds to this in Spanish and the second conditional corresponds to this in Spanish."Spending ages trying to define a word or an expression when just a quick translation could really help in that case, using the learners' language for effective reasons.I remember I didn't speak a word of Spanish when I first arrived here. I was given beginner's classes precisely because it was the idea that this would be a genuine communication situation, etc. I couldn't get to know my students.It means I couldn't ask them, "How are things going? How are you getting on in these certain situations?" Or, "What things are worrying you about learning English? Don't worry about this [inaudible 23:43] . It just means this. I can help you with this later."All these kinds of things that really enhanced language learning, I wasn't able to do because the idea was that we couldn't speak each other's language and only think in monolingual situations. It's just ridiculous not to take into account and use the learner's mother tongue.Ross Thorburn & Tracy Yu Ross: We heard there from a bunch of our favorite guests over the last couple of years about things that they have changed their minds about. Tracy, to finish the podcast, what have you changed your mind about?Tracy: There are a lot of things I have changed over the last few years. One thing is how I can connect on education‑related either theories or practice and into what I'm doing, my work in context. In the past, I remember when I started being a trainer, I read a lot of books about teaching, training, and theories in ESL, TESL, exactly related to this industry.Then, I realized maybe I just focused too specific to this industry, to this area. When I listened to podcasts and watch TV, or read other books, magazines, or journals, sometimes I realize that actually something that relates to this industry could really help what I'm doing. I need to give you an example, right?Ross: Give us an example, yeah.Tracy: I read a book about how marriage works. The book is "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work." When I started reading this book, I didn't expect any connection to work, but the more I read about it, I realize actually there were a lot of principles [laughs] can apply to work, to manage a team.For example, there's one thing mentioned about criticism versus complaint. You can see the difference between these two. You can say...Ross: What's the difference? Do you want to give us an example of each?Tracy: A complaint, you can say, "Oh, you didn't do this very well," or "You didn't complete this on time," for example, at work. Criticism, it's like, "Oh, you always did this this way. You're not able to do this," something like that.Ross: It sounds like more you're talking about the person rather than the actions that they've taken or not taken.Tracy: Yeah. Of course, people can complain. You can give constructive feedback to the other person. You can talk about the facts, you can talk about the behavior, but you don't jump into conclusion and say, "Oh, this person is not able to," or "This is always like this." You're not giving the person another chance to reflect and then to make things better.When you're working with colleagues or you're managing a team, it's really important to distinguish the difference between a complaint and a criticism. Another thing is super, super useful, when I had a difficult conversation or tried to give feedback to our staff, just try not to have a harsh start‑up when you're having a conversation.Even though before you start a conversation, you knew it's probably towards some kind of a conflict or uncomfortable situation, still try to avoid a harsh start‑up in a conversation. Maybe you want to ask this person how they feel, what's going on, and what happened, and find out more information.Then provide more specific information to the person. Then give the feedback and then action plan, rather than at the beginning is said something very negative. It's difficult for the person to receive your feedback.For you, Ross, you work in different roles for the last 12, 13 years. You were a civil engineer, and then you work in education. Anything that you've changed over the last few years?Ross: Something I'm in the process of changing my mind about is a lot of the things that we talk about here and we do on teacher training courses in materials design and management is we concentrate so much on what goes on in the classroom as that's where the learning and everything takes place. That's fundamentally the most important thing.I used to believe that, but I'm coming to believe more that what happens in the classroom might not be the most important part of their learning process. What might actually be more important is what happens before the class and what happens after the class.I found a nice quote yesterday from someone called Ausubel, hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. He says, "If I were to block out and reduce all of education's psychology to just one principle, I would say this. The most important single factor influencing learning is what the learner already knows. Ascertain this and teach them accordingly."That was really cool. How much time do we ever spend actually finding out what students already know? I would guess, generally, not very much time or not a lot of time. Certainly, on this podcast, we don't talk about that very much.I think the same thing for what happens after class. We tend to assume that things finish once the students walk out the door. We know from memory curves and things, if students don't revise what they've already learned, then they forget the vast majority of things that happen in classroom.That's something I've changed my mind about. I think we need to spend more time focusing on what happens outside the classroom every bit as much, if not more, compared to what happens inside the classroom.Tracy: How can you do that then, to find out more information before the class about the students?Ross: I don't have all the answers to it, but I think it's more important that we think, like ascertaining what students already know before lessons, finding out what problems do they have, and designing our lessons to try and solve specific issues that students have.What normally what happens is students get placed in a certain level. Then they just work through a course book, which roughly approximates what they know and what they don't know.We don't go into enough effort to find out what are the holes and the gaps, or the peaks and the troughs, in students' current ability and knowledge, and try and smooth over the troughs, to make sure what we're doing in class fills those in.Tracy: Have you ever seen any examples or some teachers who were able to focus on what happened before the class or after the class?Ross: Some things, like the whole flipped classroom principle, goes towards that. Some educational technology works towards aiming to find out what students know before the class. It has them answering questions and makes sure that they reach a level of mastery before they move on to the next topic.I don't think that's the norm in most scenarios. It's something that we don't talk about enough, and I think those things are every bit is important probably as what goes on in the classroom and deserve our attention a lot.Everyone, I hope that was interesting. I presume for a lot of people that the reason that you're listening to this podcast in the first place is so that we can change your minds about some issues that are important. Hopefully, it was useful hearing how some of our favorite guests have changed their minds about different things over the years.Tracy: Thanks very much for listening.Ross: For the last three years, thank you. Good‑bye.Tracy: Bye.

Find Lesson Planning for Language TeachersPrinciples of Task Design (With Dave Weller) - TranscriptionRoss Thorburn: Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. Today, our favorite guest is with us, Dave Weller.Dave Weller: Hurrah!Ross: [laughs] Today, Dave and I are going to talk a bit about Task Design. Before we jump into that, why is Task Design useful or important, or worth thinking about?Dave: Good question. Mainly because when we first become teachers or, at least, I know when I did, I just ran with whatever activities were suggested to me, or games that other teachers have worked very well to get the students engaged and motivated.It was only later [laughs] that I started to question, "Hang on, are my students actually learning anything?" Then shamefully, I didn't think about that soon enough.Dave: That's when you start to realize that, is what I'm doing actually helping the learners, or is it just using time. That's where Task Design pops up, and I think, "OK, the way I run my activity, the way I've structured my activity, it can make a huge difference to what students think about, the language they use, and the practice they get."Ross: There's also maybe something about evaluating what you're already doing there, isn't there? That first step that you mentioned maybe is looking at, "What am I doing now? How good is it?" Maybe before I start designing anything else.Today, we're going to run through Dave's six top tips for ways to design tasks. We're going to look at aims, gaps, load, materials, thinking, and rehearsal. Tell us the first tip tasks should support aims.Dave: When you think about the task, think about what language is it likely to get students to produce. Is that the same as your target language? Often, especially if you're just looking for an activity or a game to fill time, you start running that activity, and the language that comes out of the student's mouth is very different.I'm using different grammar, different lexis, different from maybe that you were expecting. Sure, that is practice, but it might be something they already know really well. They default to something that they are confident using. It's not pushing to use things they're not comfortable with. Therefore, growing or getting better at the language doesn't really happen.Ross: I think as well this, it's maybe when you're lesson planning, it can also be worth thinking about changing your aim to reflect the task as opposed to just changing the task to reflect the aim. A lot of people maybe tend to start off with the aim and work forward from that. It's like forward planning, whereas, something I sometimes encourage people to do is reverse planning.Starting at the end of the class, what's a great task that you think is going to be useful for the students, and then trying to make sure that your aim, and everything you teach matches the task.Dave: If you have the luxury of doing that, that's almost the best way to do, but it depends where you're working and the context you're in. Some schools are quite strict about the syllabus they're using, or the course book you have to follow. You have to tick off certain grammar points or sets of vocabulary.If you would just let me free a context where maybe a class works, just like an English corner, then, sure, coming up with an activity you know will work well for that group and working backwards from that is freer.Ross: Again, maybe as well with that aim, it's easier practically to add things to it than to take things away from it. You're probably less likely to get a complaint if you've taught an extra few things that have gone beyond what's in the syllabus. The issue is usually when you cut things from it.Dave: Yes, totally.Ross: The next step is tasks need a gap. What's a gap, for those unfamiliar?Dave: [laughs] It doesn't mean you just stop half‑way through, and you freeze.[laughter]Dave: If there's no input for five minutes at all, you just have to take your little nap.[laughter]Ross: It's the same as a break.Dave: Yeah, I wish. Now, surprisingly, I don't see much written about this. There's an author, Prabhu, and he mentioned that in any type of communication, there are gaps. The three are the information gaps, where perhaps you and I have different information about subjects.Maybe, I want to get to the train station, and you know the way, and I don't. Then, there might be a reasoning gap. Perhaps we all have the same information, but we're trying how to use that information to achieve an objective.For example, planning a night out or choosing where to go on holiday. We're using our logic and our reason to pick the best option, and we can do that collaboratively.The last gap is an opinion gap, where students would agree or disagree with each other based on their personal preferences. Debates are a good example.Ross: I choose a new picture for the classroom or something like that, and here's a choice, which ones do you like, and justify it, why, that kind of thing.Dave: Yes. Exactly.Ross: I've also seen people add to this experience gaps or getting people to talk about what they personally have experienced in their own lives, and how that might be different between students and [inaudible 4:39] to that.Dave: For me, a lot of that could fall under the information gap because you're just talking about life experience, and I have that, and you don't. That's really good in more adult classes if you have a nice mix of students with different experience in the classroom.Ross: Do you want to talk about this for young learners for a second? Because I think with these, it's easier to think of examples for adults than for kids. For kids, we're talking about, for example, what might be a reasoning gap for young learners that would work?Dave: Sure. I'll start with the information gap. That could be, you give pairs different pictures. Student A has a picture of a toy or a character, and person B has a blank piece of paper. They're taking turns to describe that character to them, and then they got to draw it. Then I'll [inaudible 5:26] get, "Sky" and they've got a big head, they've got small eyes, or whatever it might be.Ross: [inaudible 5:31].[laughter]Dave: Yes. No hair.[laughter]Ross: It is something that is worth talking about is this classroom management aspect. When I see this going wrong, a lot of the time, someone's had this idea that student A will have this information, student B will not, and they have to talk, but what just ends up happening...Say, if it's a running dictation that the student whose gone outside to look at the picture, we detect just ends up writing the answer, or are going to find someone who activity...I've got my sheet with...Find someone who can speak more than two languages, and then I just give you the pen. Tell you to write your name in there.I've also seen one where students have to find a way from A to B on a map, but these students show each other the map, so there's no gap there. With that, it's really worth thinking about how it's actually going to play out in the reality of the classroom. How, as a teacher, are you going to make sure that students don't just take the short‑cut of showing the other person the information?Dave: Oh, absolutely. An example, just stay with the A and B describing pictures to each other, I might line mapping roads. We'll have them get one road to [inaudible 6:36] and face the other road, and fixed seats somewhere. They will have to visibly hold up their paper in front of them.As a teacher, you can immediately see if someone's not doing what you've asked them to do, and it's a point of frown on them, whatever your behavior management system is.Ross: Sure.Dave: Or even making a favorite toy, or you're going to have to design a new character when you've watched a very short clip of a monster movie, a cartoon monster, and they have to make you a monster. You give them a certain set of features.Like, you can choose from these body parts. There's a selection of ears and eyes, your legs and arms, and body types, and then they have to put them together to create the scariest monster they can.Ross: I love those. One of the problems you often get with that is that teachers assume that, because I've taught, say, body parts, that that type of task is going to work really well. What I think the actual language you get in a task like that is like, "No, I disagree. I want this one. This is better. I don't like that."I think often with those, that's something that's really worth thinking about. Like what is the language that's going to come up? Because, really probably a lot of time what you're doing is just pointing to something and say, "I want this one," or "I like that one."Dave: Sure. The trick is, again, that's just shouldn't be the main task. That should be the pre‑task almost. Actually, it's really nice. It's another one of the criteria for task design, which is, think about or consider what students are going to think about.Cognitive psychology does show us that what students think about, they will remember. There's a really nice quote that memories erases your thought. You probably heard that on here before.Ross: No, actually I think that will be the first time, but Daniel Willingham, right?Dave: Yes, from his book, "Why Don't Students Like School?" If students are over‑excited, if the task is too stimulating, I always revert to the first language, especially young learners, and start using first language to complete the task.Ross: Because almost with kids there's this maybe lack of being able to self‑regulate in both your own behavior, but I guess, also in what language you're going to use. If you've got them dialed up to 11 on the excitements scale, then the chance that you're going to be able to decide to use your second language to do this thing is pretty unlikely.Dave: Exactly. Yes.Ross: Taking that also links back to what you're saying at the very beginning, that, as a new teacher or as new teachers, I think a lot of us assume that if the students are smiling and having fun and they're excited, then it's a great class, but maybe sometimes dialing that back a bit is actually beneficial.Dave: Absolutely. The opposite is entirely true, as well. If they're bored, I'll be talking in the first language but probably off topic.Ross: It's some sweet spot in the middle [laughs] between utter boredom and complete excitement.Dave: Yeah, exactly. That thing, that example you gave of, if they are making or creating something, maybe drawing or making something out of Play‑Doh, or whatever they're doing, they won't be using the language to do that. They'd taken a product of that task and then using it to use the language that you want to. That's where the learning's going to happen.Ross: Sorry to start jumping around there, but I think this relates to your last point of mentally rehearsing the tasks and thinking about like, what is actually physically going to happen here? I think that's one example.Another one is maybe, we took the farm animals and then for the last hour people are going to make their own farm, but, of course, what language are you using there? You're probably saying things like, "Can I have a red pencil, please?" Or, "Please, pass me the scissors," which is completely unrelated to the farm animals. The students won't be thinking about that at all.Dave: Exactly. It's so simple to avoid that by very quickly putting yourself in the student's shoes and thinking, what language do I need to use to complete this task?Ross: To take us back maybe to a minute if we're teaching adults. I think if it's a very high stakes class, if you're being observed for something that's really, really important, and you've got a task. You can always just find maybe two or three students wandering around the school and trying to do the task within 15 minutes.Not the students that will be in your class later, but just to see how actually it pans out, or just turn around to the person next to you in the teacher's room and go, "Can you do this with me for two minutes?"Dave: Jump out from behind and photocopy it.[laughter]Dave: I need your help with a task.Ross: Yes, covering this farm.[laughter]Ross: How about going back to number three then, cognitive load? That's a term that certainly I was not familiar with until relatively recently. What's cognitive load?Dave: Cognitive load is the challenge of the task itself. How difficult will learners find it? If you are expecting to use language that is far above what they can do, they'll look at the task or start to think about, realize it's well beyond what they can do, and you'll see engagement just drop like a stone.Again, the idea of picking a sweet spot between something that they're able to do with help, and this is almost like scaffolding of all the idea of what they can do. [inaudible 11:20] what I can do with help today, they'll be able to do without help tomorrow.Ross: I guess, here, as well, we're not just talking about necessarily how difficult the language is, but we might be thinking about how cognitively tough the task is. Earlier, for example, we were talking about information gaps, reasoning gaps, and opinion gaps.Maybe a reasoning gap where you've got this much money, these are some different options, these are some different preferences of people in the groups. That sounds like there's going to be a lot more thinking going on there from the students than an information gap where you described...[crosstalk]Ross: Right. When that happens, maybe it's worth thinking about how the processing power and the student's brain is going to be used to be maybe more thinking about the problem rather than for producing language.You might get less accuracy and less fluency. Just like me on this podcast, I stumble over words when I'm trying to explain a difficult concept.[crosstalk]Dave: That happens to all of us, right? You can see when someone's very familiar with the topic because they're fluent, they're calm, they're confident. They're not using discourse markers like, "um," "uh," and so on. When we're trying to think about how best to explain it, we slow down, we stumble over our words.Another thing that is very worth mentioning is that this level of challenge can also apply to the incidental language in class, like teachers giving instructions. I've observed classes where the students are frazzled by the time they get to the task, because the teacher speaks very quickly, they're not creating their language appropriately for the level.The students are leaning forward, trying to follow the thread of the teacher, and then they finish, they have to clarify with their friends next to them. "Did she say this?" "Did she say that?" Then by the time they get to the task, "I've just spent five minutes of intensive listening practice," and now you can get a listening to do that.Ross: It's almost like what students will think about. It sounds like in your example there they were thinking about what on earth could the instructions be rather than what was in the lesson.[laughter]Ross: Well, Dave, thanks for joining us. All of those tips were from just one tiny part of one chapter in "Lesson Planning for Language Teachers ‑‑ Evidence‑Based Techniques for Busy Teachers" by our very own, Dave Weller. Dave, where can people get a hold of it?Dave: Thanks to the plug, Ross. This is a brand new book for me. You can find it on Amazon as an e‑book or a paperback. Planning should support learning. It should use evidence‑based best practices, and it shouldn't take long.[laughter]Dave: Yeah. I think that's the key point. With those principles in mind, I've created 9 or 10 chapters in the book using current research, tested techniques so teachers can end up planning better, faster, and with less stress.Ross: Great. All right. Dave, thanks for joining us.Dave: It's been a pleasure.

In this episode Ross and Trinity CertTESOL course director Allan Crocker discuss the issues related to time; how time influences how we teach, the problems it causes and how we can spend it better.Ross Thorburn: Hi, Allan.Allan Crocker: Hi, Ross.Ross: Do you want to tell us a bit about who you are, Allan Crocker?Allan: Yes, I am Allan Crocker. Someone has to be. I'm a teacher trainer here in China. I'm course director for CertTESOL. I also do basic training and management training in our company. Before that, I've been a director of studies, a manager in a training school, and been a teacher for about six years teaching English. Before that, about a year‑and‑a‑half trying to teach music.Ross: We're going to talk about timing today. Then we can talk a bit about timing in the classroom with students. Then maybe, later on, we can talk about how teachers spend their time.Allan: This is interesting how it always seems to come up in self‑evaluation. This is like, "My timing was not good." [laughs]Ross: You're right. It's so interesting because I'd never thought about this before, either. It's such a common thing for people to talk about after an observed lesson, but I've almost never seen a training session on it. This is definitely the first podcast that we've done on it. Yet, that's what people always talk about.Allan: People talk about that. There's a few areas here. Firstly, my real sort of annoyance, we start with that, is the use of alarms and timers and, "OK, I'm going to give you two‑and‑a‑half minutes."At the end of the two‑and‑a‑half minutes, the alarm goes off, and they go, "Have you finished?" Luckily, I don't see many people then saying, "OK, let's go for the answers." Usually, teachers are aware that no one's finished. You put pressure on people. You slightly make them feel bad about themselves if they're not finished within the time.Where that comes from is seeing the lesson as yours. It's like, "Here's my plan, you're going to be subjected to it," rather than, "I'm going to help you learn by giving you these exercises." Then it's not, "How long is this going to take?" because that's obvious.Ross: In my plan, it says 2.5 minutes.Allan: Yeah, but the answer is until the students are finished or bored or there's something better to do. You can judge that other ways.Ross: Although to play devil's advocate to this, there is obviously a value to having deadlines. We obviously see this on teacher training courses when there's assignments. For example, one course I did before where you had to hand in 2,500 words every three weeks. Everyone did it on time.Then on other courses that we've seen, you maybe have to hand in 10,000 words after three years. Guess what happens? Everyone leaves all that work until two years, 10 months. Then they panic, and they start working on it. There's obviously some value to those deadlines.Allan: Yeah, I agree, but, in that case, it should be a focused deadline. It's like, "OK, they may be right. You have 10 minutes to prepare your side of the debate, and then we're going to do it." That will be 10 minutes.Ross: I almost see it as you want to set the time limit, but not actually use the timer to decide when it's going to finish. Like you'll say, "All right, guys, you've got five minutes to do this." There's some urgency, but then you walk around and you monitor.I don't think I ever set a timer, but I can see when people are close you need to get their skates on and go, "All right, you've got one minute left." You're using the times to motivate people to get their skates on, but you're not actually necessarily using a timer to do it.Allan: That's one point. When it gets to the evaluation of a lesson, like a real obsession with time and time management, teachers will often list as a key positive or a key negative, "I managed the time well. Therefore, I completed everything," versus "I didn't have enough time for some stuff, therefore, that..."Ross: Does that mean then that almost the aim of the lesson is to complete the lesson plan?Allan: To complete the lesson plan, yeah, absolutely. I used to do this as well.Ross: Do you think it's a nervousness thing? I often think, as observers, we see...Obviously, there's this observer's paradox thing where people are more nervous. Maybe they think the observer...Allan: It's going to be class, right?Ross: Yeah, it's a little class, also the observer is expecting them to carry out a plan or something.Allan: It could well be that they expect that. I remember talking about this fairly recently with a trainee who then said, "Well, when I'm observed in my regular job, I get told off if I don't follow the timings." There are definitely situations where you're under pressure there, or you have an observer who doesn't really know what they are talking about if I can say that.[laughter]Allan: They see the lesson plan as part of the exam. It also comes from a lack of tolerance of ambiguity or intolerance of ambiguity.Ross: Talk about that for a minute or two.Allan: Mrs. Dietrich told me all about this, and I love it. This is the idea that some people are tolerant of ambiguity and some people are not. This is a skill that can be trained.What it means is, if you have intolerance of ambiguity, it means that you feel threatened when you don't understand or they'd have confusion. Something you might do is keep asking questions used to search for a black and white answer.Ross: I've come across this before in language learning. The kids are generally more tolerant of ambiguity because, as a child, you're used to not understanding a lot of what's on TV or what your parents are saying. As an adult, especially with language reading, people get freaked out when it's like, "I don't understand one thing."Allan: A very good example of that was a recent lesson. The learner asked me a question about grammar and phrasal verbs and why we use of certain preposition. It took quite a while for me to just be essentially, "No way. You just have to use this preposition with this verb, sorry." She just wanted to know a reason.That's a very lack of tolerance for ambiguity. What it means here is, it's like, "OK, my lesson is on the plan. I can measure my success if I complete it." It requires a higher level of tolerance of ambiguity to say, "The lesson is in the learners' heads. I can't measure that. I've not really got any idea what's going on. Let's just let them work this out, and we'll try and explore together."It's really hard to measure what's impossible to measure. You have to take a leap of faith that like, "They're talking to each other about the task. Good."Ross: Something useful is coming out of this.Allan: Yeah, if we trust in our methodology, something useful is coming out of that. Let's work with it. That's a lot more tolerant of ambiguity than I completed the plan. I know I did something. [laughs]They'll learn the same thing where, in a similar way, the teacher might say, as a plus point, "Learners completed all the exercises correctly." Then me being an asshole, say, "Why is that a good thing?"Maybe a tip here for this as a trainer or observer is, if someone says, "I got through the lesson plan, I did everything on time," you can say, "OK, were there any points where you feel the learners could have benefited from more time there."Conversely, "I didn't manage to do everything." It's like, "Was that the plan or did you lose time at some point that you should have done, or did you plan too much? What was the reason there?" It might often be that "Oh, I just planned too much." Then it's, "OK, that's a learning there is you had a too complicated plan."There's the areas where time gets lost. These are, firstly, presentation where you think it's lasted a minute, but it's actually lasted about 10 and everyone's asleep. Where you'd like to elicit a few things and you just want to ask some questions, and then you get stuck there.Answer checking, I see a lot were it's, like, "Let's go through every damn answer." You already know they're all right. Let's go deeper or move on and just say, well done. A tip would be to record yourself doing that and then listen. It's like, your presentation, maybe that takes seven minutes of you presenting that. That's a bad use of time, I think.[crosstalk]Ross: It almost seems like a prioritization or like a value for time. If you could look through your lesson and think about which minutes was the most learning happening? Which segments have the highest value for time?Allan: Or which minutes where I'm not really aware of what was going on? That's where the time really matters.Ross: It could be your example there of going through the answers. That seems to be a perfect example of no one learned anything in these five minutes. Could you have cut out these five minutes? Probably.Allan: You can monitor, obviously, and then you say, "OK, everyone got everything right? Let's look at number two. What do you think about the answer to number three? Give your opinion." You can still then turn that into a learning opportunity, rather than just repeating what they already know.You mentioned before, time becomes a problem when they didn't do, say, the free practice or the core part of the lesson, which then yeah, that's a real issue. A way to get around that is to set a time, which is the latest that the core task can start.Ross: I like that. Not that I've done this much, but one of my best friends is into mountain climbing. The couple of times I've done a mountain with him, never actually gotten to the top, there's always a turnaround time of if we're not at the top, regardless of where we are, even if we're 15 meters from the top, at 4:30, we're turning around.Otherwise, we're going to be walking home in the dark, and someone might break their leg. That's a great metaphor for the free plan. It's always going to start at least 10 minutes from the end of the class, come hell or high water.Allan: Yeah, 20 minutes, 15 minutes, whatever it is. Then if you want practice making sure that happens, then set a personal alarm or something that just goes off in your pocket and you go, "OK, everyone, we're going to move on to this."Ross: That's so nice. It's almost like the point of the timer is not for the students, it's for you.Allan: It's for you, right?Ross: It's for you. An interesting question's to look at...Because of the thing that we always say as teacher trainers is, "That final activity, you've got to get it done," or whatever, but why? Where is it we're spending time in a lesson on say, for example, accuracy versus fluency or input versus output? What's our rationale, maybe, as teacher trainers in those decisions?Allan: It's funny, they're right. The free practice must be done because, otherwise, they haven't applied it in the "real life" situation. Therefore, they've learned nothing. It's like, "Well, yeah, but..." The flippant answer is where learning takes place. That's where you should [laughs] spend more time, but where is that?Monitoring your learners and seeing what they're talking about, what they're saying, what mistakes they're making, finding places where you can improve, that's worth your time. It's maybe not accepting a mediocre answer.Maybe it's control practice, and someone said it with a bad pronunciation. It's like, OK, let's spend 20 seconds getting that better. That's worth your time. What else is there to talk about time other than...?Ross: Something interesting with timing is the idea of different timings with different age groups. I often find that's one of the big challenges going from teaching adults to kids, or kids to adults, or kids of different ages, is realizing that with three‑year‑olds, for example, if you have anything that lasts over five minutes, that's going to be a big problem. You need to plan.If it's a 60‑minute lesson, you probably need to plan like at least 12 different steps in there. If you do the same thing with adults, which I did before moving from teaching young kids to teaching adults, that's way too many stages. That's just not going work. Taking into account the attention span of the students of different ages.Allan: One advantage of teaching young learners in that regards is the kids will tell you. They'll tell you very loudly that they don't want to do this anymore.[laughter][crosstalk]Allan: In a way, the monitoring becomes quite easy in that respect. Stuff is being thrown, time to move on. Where adults, you have to listen a bit more carefully.Ross: Another key thing there is almost setting too much or setting these flexible aims of like saying, "You've got to write at least three sentences," or, "You have to answer at least seven questions," but maybe there's 12. Then, if people get to seven questions, and, "OK, you need to move on," people still have the sense of, I completed it.They don't have this frustration that I didn't finish, but then you don't get the early finishers just sitting around and doing nothing.Allan: Then maybe people choose different ones and then sharing at the end. Yeah, absolutely.[pause]Ross: Another thing about timing I wanted to mention was just what teachers spend their time on in general. When I was teaching 20 hours a week, I don't feel that I developed very much. I feel that the year I developed the most was when I was a director of studies and I was only teaching for about five hours a week. I could really plan those five hours. Really apply things...Allan: Are those lessons special in some way that they...?Ross: When I was teaching 20 hours a week, you were just surviving, it was keeping your head above water. Whereas I found, when I was teaching much less, all of a sudden I had this opportunity to go, "I'm going to use corpus in this lesson. I'm going to try and spend a bit more time making my materials on this."Allan: I used to work with teachers who also had customer service jobs as well and they would phone the parents. A lot of teachers worked with that dual role, and they had no time to plan lessons at all. They wouldn't develop really.Ross: Because you'd just be going in and winging it every time.Allan: Yeah, and, "Well, I'm not going to think up a new activity or new way of doing this because I don't have time."Ross: There's always some sort of teaching hierarchy of needs there like I'm going to get...Allan: Survival is first.Ross: Yeah, it's like, "If I don't mark the homework or phone the parents, I'm going to get fired. I'm going to do those things first. Then what's next? Write down the vocabulary and four activities on the back of a Post‑it note." Then gradually, if you have the time and maybe you do have the opportunity to think in more detail and reflect.Allan: Then there's some idiot does try to get you to do that jigsaw activities which involve cutting up pieces of paper.Ross: [laughs]Allan: Even in a top tip matching activity, you only need to cut one half of it. The other one you can keep there. Top tip, I've saved you hours and hours of your life.[laughter]Ross: That's amazing. I never thought of that before.Allan: Really?Ross: Yeah, really.Allan: Used to drive me mad to see people cutting both sides of it. Like, "No, you fold. You just need..."[laughter]Ross: Obviously, thanks for coming on.Allan: My pleasure.Ross: For people that want to find out more about you, no Twitter, no Facebook.Allan: No, I have nothing. No social media present at all.Ross: Wow, cool. Well, congratulations on having no social media.Allan: You'll see me on the streets.

We discuss different models of asking questions to students, typical mistakes trainers make in asking questions and the most powerful questions we can ask ourselves to reflect.Ross Thorburn: Hello, everybody. Welcome to our podcast. Today, we've got two guests. Matt, our regular guest...Matt Courtois: Hey, how's it going?Tracy: Hey, Matt! And we have Karin.Karin Xie: Hello.Tracy: Karin Xie!Ross Thorburn: What do you do, Karin? What's your job now? It's changed since last time.Karin: Yeah. I am now the Academic Manager for Trinity China. My job is helping teachers preparing their students for Trinity GESE exams, and also expanding Trinity TESOL courses to teachers in Mainland China.Tracy: Great, OK. Welcome.Ross: Today, I thought we could talk about questions. I thought it would be interesting today to look at different aspects of questions, or different ways that we can look at questions using Bloom's taxonomy, open and closed, and a whole lot of other things.Tracy: We've got three questions about questions. The first one is questions teachers can ask, and the second?Matt: The second one is questions trainers ask.Tracy: And the third one?Karin: The questions we can ask ourselves to reflect.Questions teachers askTracy: You know, we all are teachers, we were teachers, and we've trained teachers. What do you think teachers really feel struggle with asking questions in the classroom?Karin: I got curious in that question. That's why I used it as my section one for my DipTESOL portfolio topic. We ask so many questions, but we are not necessarily always aware of why we ask the questions we ask, and what we were trying to get from the students.Matt: Did you find anything in your research?Karin: Yeah, the main thing was teachers rarely paid attention to the proportion of display questions and referential questions they ask.Ross: Before we jump into what kind of things teachers ask, what are some different types of questions or ways of categorizing teacher questions?Karin: The simple way of categorizing questions like open‑ended questions, and yes/no questions, and there's also, display questions, and referential questions.Ross: I think most people can get closed and open questions, but what's a referential question or a display question?Karin: A display question is when the person or the teacher knows the answer, or the other people also know the answer to the question. For example, when you hold a pen, so everybody can see the pen, and you ask, "What color is this pen?"The referential question, on the other hand, would be when you invite opinions, or ask questions that there's no definite answer to.Tracy: I think the display question is quite similar to experience questions, because everybody can see it, can feel it.Ross: I suppose that's good for checking some kind of meaning. You can be sure that however the students answer it, they've either got the concept or not.Tracy: For example, can you find a microphone in this room?[laughter]Ross: I can imagine that must be a problem. If teachers ask too many display questions, there's no real genuine or natural communication. You would never normally ask someone, "What color is this pen?" because you can see the color of the pen by looking at it.Tracy: Yeah, there's no need to ask a question.Matt: It's OK to ask questions about the function of language sometimes, like what it means. I guess we're talking about vocabulary here, but with grammar as well, asking questions, comparing two different grammar structures. It's not necessarily something you would do in day‑to‑day conversation, but I think it's the kind of question that's really essential in the classroom.Karin: It's almost like a concept‑checking question you're talking about.Matt: I think a well‑formed concept checking question can drive a student's understanding of this grammar point or vocabulary point forward. It's not just, "What do you know about it already?"You can ask, for example, after reading an article. I think it's really useful to ask, "Why did the author choose to say it this way? What other ways could he have said it? What other grammar could he have used? How does that change the meaning?"These can not just display that you understand what the grammar is, but it can actually push forward your understanding of grammar.Tracy: It seems like you give the students an opportunity to go further and to make connections between the language, and also how the language can be applied in real communication. For example, where can you use it, and why people use it, instead of using that.Karin: Or getting students to analyze and evaluate the language that they've heard, or they just used.Ross: Sounds like now we're heading on to Bloom's taxonomy as a way of looking at questions.The lowest levels of Bloom's taxonomy might be "What's this?" or "What did you read?" or "What did this person do in this passage?" whereas, higher up, it would be, "Why did they behave this way? Why did they make this decision?" Then maybe at the top it might be, "Can you rewrite the ending to this story?"Tracy: Did you read something recently, Ross, about reading comprehension questions?Ross: I have here a couple of other models for reading comprehension questions. One is by Diane Freeman. She splits reading comprehensions into three different areas. One is questions about the content, like what happened in the text or why did this person do this.Then, you get questions about the language. Maybe those are ones like Matt mentioned earlier. What tense did the person use here? Why did they use that? What does that show?The final one, as she calls them, affect questions. It's like a personal response. What do you think of this character? Why do you think they did this thing? Or, evaluation, like what did the author mean by this?Matt: Or what stance does the author take? How does it represent the values of society? Where is the author's place in this?Karin: One thing that I didn't know or wasn't aware of before I did my research, but I did come to realize, was that the follow‑up questions really made a difference. For example, the first few kinds of questions that you mentioned, most teachers would ask them, but what really made a difference was the later ones, because not many teachers ask them.[crosstalk]Ross: I always thought forward these things, like going to those higher levels of Bloom's taxonomy, it's nice to have, but maybe it's not really helping people learn language.The more I've read about this recently, the more I'm beginning to believe, or understand, that the deeper you get students to process and think about it, the more they're able to remember and recall ideas later on. Really pushing people to think about things in a much deeper way actually helps them with language acquisition.Tracy: Recently, I read Edward de Bono's book, "Teach Your Child to Think." What he mentioned is about there are a different type of practice and you can help the children to improve their thinking skills.There are four different types of item, and they are fun items, which means the questions should be imaginative, and they can be a little bit crazy.What would happen if we all had a third arm? They have a remote item beyond their experience and means. For example, what factors would you consider when you're choosing a place to set up a new restaurant? For children, probably, they've seen restaurants, but they don't know what is the process to set up the restaurant.The third one is called backyard item. For example, what do you think your school policy is. Do you agree with it or you disagree with it? It relates this to their life.The last one is called highway item. It's serious and directly relevant to their life like how can you make more friends in your neighborhood?These questions, of course, not always, were used in a classroom. Also, I think teacher and parents should help their children to be able to improve their thinking skills.Questions trainers askRoss: Let's talk a bit about questions that trainers ask them. I know Karin, you and I and Matt, we talked before about almost this danger of trainers asking questions to trainees and doing that classic thing of, "Hey, I'm trying to elicit an idea. Do you know what it is?"Matt: Years ago when I was a teacher, I had a trainer who was talking about board work and she asked us something about, let's say, word stress. She was saying, "What's a way we can symbolize word stress on the board?"Somebody was like, "You could draw a circle over the stress syllable." The trainer went, "Yeah, I guess we could."[laughter]Matt: She kept going at it and somebody else was like, "You could underline the stress syllable." "Yeah, yeah, yeah."[laughter]Matt: Finally, we got to the point of just saying, "What is it?" and she was like, "Guys, we have different colored markers on the board." Then we're like, "Oh, OK. I get it," and she's like, "So, what can you do?"[laughter]Karin: It's almost like reading my mind or guess what I'm thinking, rather than what we can do, or different options.Ross: At least in that example, none of those other options were any less valid than the other one. I think the thing is that people will be more likely to use their idea than something that someone else spoon‑feeds you.Matt: Ross, when you observed my training before, or maybe when you observed my lessons at the very beginning, the first question you asked was what kind of feedback do you want. Do you want to do a coaching reflection thing? Do you want to just give you a few points to work on?I thought that was pretty cool. I think we ended up doing a reflection thing. Then we finished that and I said, "OK, what's your advice?"Karin: That's because maybe you both preferred that coaching style. We were so used to a certain way of doing things in training and feedback. We just assumed that people would prefer similar ways. We are just how we trained.Tracy: Like Matt mentioned, it's great if the trainer can give the options to the trainee on what type of feedback you prefer. It also doesn't mean that's always true. If I say I prefer direct feedback, it doesn't mean this person can really accept and then to be reflective on those direct feedback, or take actions. I think there is always a balance.Ross: I don't think I do that anymore. I don't think I give people that choice because what I found was that people just say, "Yeah, just tell me what you think." That's like the default setting.I often find that after you tell someone, "These are the three things I would change," they're like, "Well, that was a bit direct."[laughter]Ross: It's like that's what you thought you wanted but maybe that's not what you actually wanted. In that situation, now, I usually go, "What do you want to talk about, about the lesson or about the training?" Tell me about it.Usually, you find that the thing the person first starts speaking about is the thing they're most interested in. Then you can start exploring that area.Tracy: I think it's also a good opportunity if they felt that they did something really well and we can still explore. Why do you think it went really well?Matt: When we were talking last night, you drew a distinction between two kinds of questions. You're saying that's eliciting, it's not really...what was it?Ross: Right, I think, Karin, your example.Karin: Self‑discovery.Ross: Yeah, your example was...I ask these questions so people can self‑discover. I think there's a difference between self‑discovery and eliciting. If you ask a lot of questions to elicit, that's like, "I have an idea and I want to 'coach you' to get to this idea that I'm already thinking of."That's the thing people find annoying. Whereas self‑discovery is different, because that's, for me at least, you're discovering your own answer to the question. I don't really care if the answer that you get is the same answer as I've thought of or not.Matt: So often I think what every trainee hates is when the trainer is eliciting from them and they try to disguise it as self‑discovery.Questions we ask ourselves to reflectRoss: We talked about teachers asking questions and trainers asking questions. I think that probably all of us have found, when you get to a certain point in your career, there isn't anyone asking you questions and coaching you. It comes down to yourself, to be in charge of your own professional development. What questions do you guys ask yourselves to help yourselves improve?Tracy: I always try to ask myself...I read something or I heard something or just to find out a new concept and how can I make it relevant to my working context.Karin: Remember, Tracy, I was showing you the Chinese quote from my friend. The three questions. She said, whenever you talk to people, ask yourself, one, would people be able to understand what you say?Two, the things that people and the things that you mention, would people know about them? The third would be, would people be interested in what you're talking about, and why? I think those were three really lovely questions for us to ask ourselves.Ross: The other useful question that I find I ask myself is ‑‑ this is not so much as a trainer but as a manager ‑‑ when things go wrong and you often think, "Wow, it's because this person messed this thing up." So often that is the case.The most powerful thing that I find for helping me learn is stepping back and thinking, I can't change how my boss behaves or I can't change how this person in the sale department behaves. Those things were out of my control.Even though this was 99 percent this other person's fault, what's the thing that I could have done differently in this situation? I find that's a really useful thing. Also, for people who work for you, going, "This wasn't your fault."But, what's the thing that you could have done differently to prevent that from happening? Then all of those annoying situations, all of those problems when they arise, you can still turn them into some opportunity to learn something.Ross: Matt and Karin, thanks very much for coming in again.Matt: Thanks for having me, Ross.Ross: You're very welcome, Matt.Ross: Bye, everyone.Karin: Bye.Tracy: Bye.

You've probably heard (possibly on this podcast) about the discrimination "non-native English teachers" can face finding jobs, in being promoted or receiving equal pay. But how does Native-speakerism affect what happens inside the classroom? Ross Thorburn: Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. This episode, our guest is Dr. Marek Kiczkowiak. Marek teaches in Belgium. He runs a TEFL show podcast, as well as the website TEFL Equity Advocates.In this episode, Tracy and I interviewed Marek about native‑speakerism inside the classroom. How do our views and assumptions about native speakers, non‑native speakers influence how we teach students, and how does that influence the students and how they use English. Hope you enjoy the interview.What Does Native‑Speakerism Inside the Classroom Look Like?My first question, I think most of the listeners out there will be familiar with the idea of native‑speakerism outside the classroom and discrimination that maybe non‑native English teachers face when they're job hunting. Can you tell us a bit about the other side of native‑speakerism and how that manifests itself inside the classroom?Marek Kiczkowiak: At the beginning when I got interested in it, obviously the first point that you notice is discriminatory recruitment policies. All the other aspects have a lot to do as well with teaching English.If you look at all the major coursebooks, if you look at the pronunciation syllabus, the aim is either to imitate standard British or general American English. This perpetuates the idea that your students have to speak like a native speaker in order to be successful.Of course, coursebooks have been moving forward with a few artificial non‑native speaker accents, usually recorded by actors. Actors are trained to imitate voices and accents, so there's a reason why coursebooks do that.It's very subliminal, you can call it, or subconscious. It's not overt, but I think if, for a very long time that's how you learn English, it doesn't surprise me that so many students prefer native‑speaker voices. The way we're teaching them leads them to believe that, "Yeah, clearly native‑speaker accents are better than non‑native speaker accents." That would be one example.Tracy Yu: I remember when I was a student from middle school to high school and university, maybe 10 years, definitely it's close to either British accents or American accents. At the end, I don't know which accent I have.Ross: It seems clear then from the point of view of schools employing non‑native teachers that there's an advantage there, that you can get great teachers.If you have students that say, "I want to learn authentic American English," or, "I want to learn British English," I wonder what their business argument is to a publisher for saying, "You need to include more examples of non‑native English."Marek: There's another reason why publishers have been reluctant, let's say, to abandon this model, where they primarily have American and British accents, is that students and teachers might complain.I remember talking, at a conference, to a coursebook author from a very big publisher. He said that they went on a tour to Russia. He was approached by one of the local teachers. The local teacher openly told them that, "We don't like your coursebook because there are all these strange accents in your coursebook. We want the British accent. I won't buy your coursebook."I had spent years persuading the publisher to finally do this, and now I get this. It's probably because those teachers have been educated and teacher trained to believe that, that British accent is the only accent they should aspire to.Accent is just one belief and factor, but there are many others. One example would be culture. A lot of people say the native speakers are better teachers because they know the target culture. If you look at some research by, Ryan Bank, if I remember the names correctly, in these coursebooks, a vast majority of place names, characters, and so on, were Western and the local Chinese students would never be familiar with it.That leads to a situation where in order to be a successful language learner, you need to learn a stereotypical image of British or American culture. That further makes native‑speakerisms seem normal and common sense.Ross: Something that Vivian Cook has written about, about how non‑native speakers should not be considered equals and failed native speakers. He says that you really need a different yardstick to compare those students. I think that's true if you look at the CEFR.Probably, there's an assumption if you're a native speaker, you should be a C2 level. Has there even been any research about a different set of standards that are based around something else that do not hold this final goal as being pretty much the same as a native speaker?Marek: The difference here that we should make is perhaps not between native and non‑native speakers but between monolingual and bi or multilingual users of the language.If you look at second language acquisition research that compares the research into critical period or compares the proficiency and intuitive knowledge of grammar, for example, pronunciation, it's usually a group of monolingual native speakers to which non‑native speakers are compared.That's a bit like comparing apples and pears because your monolingual brain is different from my multilingual brain. I might use the language in a different way. If you were to become, maybe already are a bilingual or multilingual users of English, even if your mother tongue is English, learning those other languages will change your brain.I remember reading a study where all the monolingual speakers performed completely differently on tests of intuitive grammaticality than those who are bi or multilingual, even bi or multilingual from birth. We do have this idea that the monolingual native speaker is at the top, but why should that be?All of our students will be at least bilingual. That's the goal. We're trying to create people who can operate successfully in two languages. Comparison points should be somebody who already speaks two or three languages, not somebody who's a monolingual native speaker.If as a non‑native speaker, for example, you're listening to this podcast and you've never felt confident about your identity because you're a failed copy of a native speaker, you have a foreign accent, and so on, you have to think of yourself as you're a bi or multilingual user of the language. It's absolutely amazing.There are so many people in Britain or the States who have never learned any other foreign language. Equally, if you're a native speaker and you know other foreign languages, I think your selling point should be not that you're a native speaker, but that you're bi or multilingual user of the language.Tracy: I think as a non‑native English speaker, I definitely experienced a lot of the criticism. I totally agree with you, what you just mentioned. Be proud of who you are and what kind of accent you have, and also you can speak more than one language.In reality, there are a lot of negative information or feedback or criticism just around you. It just damage your confident, you always think, "OK, I'm still far away from the standard that people perceive."Do you have any suggestions or something that you think, this could help other speakers, and they can feel more confident or boost their confidence, what kind of suggestion you want to give them?Marek: Absolutely. One suggestion, sales pitch starts, you can join TEFL Equity Academy where I have a course specifically designed to boost your confidence, end of sales pitch.First thing, you have to rethink how you brand, market yourself, think of yourself. You really have to, not just on a superficial level though, but deeply believe in yourself in all the abilities that you have. You have some amazing superpowers. For starters, that you've learned English. That can be used as a great selling point to students.In terms of pronunciation, people will tell you, "Well, you have a foreign accent. That's bad." Why is that actually bad? Ross has an accent as well because that's where he comes from. If we're to be honest, the vast majority of our students will never be able to speak like Ross does, for example because there's...Ross: They probably wouldn't want to, Marek.[laughter]Ross: Yeah, I'm not sure if they would want to. The Scottish accent is not specifically desirable, yet.[laughter]Marek: There is a critical period, right? It's an unrealistic model to present them with. Whereas you are a successful user of English, your students can imitate you, and they can improve themselves. They can imagine themselves speaking English as well as you do.If you're told that, "Well, you've just made a mistake there, clearly you're not proficient enough," but then there's hundreds of examples of native speakers making what we would call "mistakes" by just speaking non‑standard English.Also, you need to understand as well, why native speakers are not better teachers because they are native speakers. A native speaker can be a fantastic teacher, not because of their first language but because of the skills and experience. You need to understand the native speaker myth, its different components, and why it's not true.Ross: I definitely find myself having that cognitive bias. If I'm listening to a non‑native speaker and I hear a mistake, I go, "I heard a mistake there. That's interesting." Whereas if you hear a native speaker making a mistake, you just go, "It's just part of ordinary spoken discourse that we don't always speak according to grammar."To go back to the other thing you were saying about the lack of confidence there, how much of that do you think there is down to not just the attitude of the non‑native speakers but the attitude of the expat, new teacher who just finished, "I'm a native speaker, come and ask me. I'll tell you the answer."What do you think, more generally, teacher education needs to do to reverse those attitude?Marek: There's a lot of truth to that. As non‑native speakers, everything in our profession or industry, industry is probably a better word here, leads us to believe that native speakers are better teachers. We're constantly told that.You go on Facebook and the stuff that you see, you wouldn't believe people telling me sometimes, "Marek, you're still banging on about the same thing? Won't you ever stop? It's over, right?" No, it isn't. Go to Facebook, and stuff that you will see, it's just unbelievable.It's your colleagues, fellow English teachers saying really horrible things about non‑native speakers. You read that.Some of the students might say those things about you like they're surprised to see a Chinese teacher at B2 level. In some cases, native speakers as well, who will have a very condescending attitude, their place of birth and their mother tongue gives them the right to correct you all the time. All of that can really affect your confidence negatively.In terms of teacher training and education, there's a lot that needs to change. At the moment, I can't see how CELTA or Trinity, CEFR could ever incorporate that because the courses are just too short. It's unbelievable. It's a topic for another podcast, that we still have four‑week crash courses and we call the people after them professional English teachers.Ross: Those are the best courses as well, right? That's the irony. They are four weeks.Marek: I think that there should be sessions specifically for non‑native speakers to boost their confidence, to talk about these issues that we've discussed. There should be sessions for everybody to discuss native‑speakerism and discuss how it can negatively affect all of us in the industry, how it makes our industry much less professional than it should be.It devalues your qualification. It devalues your experience. The only reason why you might be hired is because you're a native speaker.Ross: And white. [laughs]Marek: And white. Absolutely. A white, native speaker. You want to be hired because you're a fantastic teacher, and you fit the qualifications.Ross: Oh, and male. I forgot. [laughs]Marek: Sorry?Ross: And male. [laughs]Marek: And male, yeah.[laughter]Ross: It's terrible. Final thing on this topic then, we've been using the term non‑native speakers. I know Vivian Cook suggested L2 users as a term to use instead. What do you think about the terminology that we use? How does that play into the attitude?Marek: I think it's a difficult issue here because none of the other terms capture the same meaning. If we talk about multilingual teachers, that can be both you and me. I think L1 and L2 users perhaps it doesn't have the non‑prefix, perhaps it's slightly better, but in essence, it's still exactly the same.When we were writing the book with Robert Lowe, we were very much aware of the fact that, on the one hand, we are rallying against and showing that these terms are subjective, ideological, but then we are using them. We did try, whenever possible, to use, for example, multilingual users of the language and so on.Sometimes, the terms can be good to draw attention to the problem. They do also reflect how some teachers see themselves. I see myself as a non‑native speaker of English and a multilingual user of English, as well.I do think that perhaps in professional ELT discourse, be it in job ads, in advertising, but also in teacher training, there has got to be a move away from these issues certainly, in recruitments. I've seen absolutely no place for these two terms, in recruitments, in advertising.Ross: Once again, everyone, that was Marek Kiczkowiak. If you'd like to find out about Marek, please visit his website www.teflequityadvocates.com.Thanks very much for listening. We'll see you next time.

https://discord.gg/Mmn2FPW Or join us on reddit... https://reddit.com/r/thecitywithinthewalls [Narrator] When a child is born into this fine city, a communication device is placed just beneath the left ear. The device can, connect to a car or house depending on the owner's setting, so communication appears more...normal, and this is how our story begins. Aleen wakes startled, by an incoming call broadcast by her house com, she quickly press's the coms button on her night stand and says... *ANSWERING NOISE* [Aleen] (Waking up to the phone ringing) Mmmm....hello [Jones] Ah Miss Harris. Sorry to call you. However,  I'm a very busy man...and quite impatient. I'm calling for an update...how'd the date go. [Aleen] (Aleen is totally disgusted) (Breath) That's really none of your business Jones...and wasn't I suppose to call you? [Jones] Yes, but as I said before I'm very busy...not to mention, impatient. As far as my business...yes, it kind of is. Now about my update...would it make you feel better if I asked please? [Aleen] (Breaths again) Tharin didn't really want to talk about it. All he told me was, Sorrel placed Dayton in Saris's place and the council isn't happy...at all. That's all he told me. [Jones] (False positivity with Aleen, feels this interaction was on the verge of ‘wasting time’) Well...its not much...and information we already knew...but I'll give you credit for the attempt at least. Thank you Miss Harris, we'll be in touch. (Phone hangs up) [Aleen] Jerk (Song and intro) [Narrator] (Keeping its normative pace, the city is hard at work, ignoring the dangers that loom with each political checkmate. In the heart of the city, a light morning fog sets in around a workshop. The sun, always in it's own power struggle with the thick clouds, lends a slight glow, that gleams lightly off Ross’s spotless high-tech workshop. Tharin enter the shop, eager to see his commissioned device. Ross reveals his genius machine, Tharin looks over it for a second and says...) [Tharin] So I just push this button...and what? It shows me the location of Saris? [Ross] The location of his tracking device at least. Last night I tested it on my own pps unit and it works fine. I just put in Saris's. Once it's done...you just push the button...and it should, yes, show you his location. [Tharin] Perfect, what are we waiting for? [Ross] It has to go through the calculations. [Tharin] Hmmm...how long does that take? (Ding) [Ross] It's done...go ahead. [Tharin] Well that went quicker than I was expecting. Here goes nothing. (Machine makes noise) [Tharin] Is this some kind of joke Mr Ajin? [Ross] What do you mean? [Tharin] Have a look for yourself, see if you can figure out what I mean. [Ross] How is that....what's it doing? [Tharin] Well if you can't figure it out, how am I supposed to know? [Ross] They must have encrypted the signal somehow. [Tharin] Or it doesn't work. [Ross] I assure you, commissioner Grady it works. [Tharin] Ok then, if that's not it, there appears to be, by my count, around 50 Saris's all over the city. [Ross] Yes I see that. They've encrypted his passcode somehow, see how they're all moving around. They've tied his code to others throughout the city. It's going to take a while to figure out. [Tharin] Right....let's hope you can figure it out Mr Ajin. If not, someone must be held responsible...is that clear? [Ross] As a bell. [Tharin] Good...well don't let me stop you...get to work. [Narrator] (Tharin, in a moment of frustration abandons the desk that holds the device. Ross sits in the background behind him, leaning against the duos new machine, he stares at it for a moment, hopelessly as if the answer will reveal itself. Tharin paces back and forth, pressing the coms button just below his left ear saying...) [Tharin] Call father... It doesn't work... [Ross] (Loudly speaking to Tharin as he walks away) It works fine... (Under breath) I just have to figure out the code [Tharin] Hes working on it now. I'll talk to you in a bit.   [Narrator] (Ross Ajin continues his work, continuing to question how ‘he,’ of all people, could be outwitted by the Theosin. Tharin steps away from the workshop for a break from the discord within in his very political life. He makes his way towards Aleen’s, glancing at her coat from the night before that now looks at home, on his passenger seat. He smiles for a moment, and begins to wonder if Aleen enjoyed the night as much as he did.)   (Knock, knock, knock) [Aleen] (Surprised and concerned, but there is a moment of flickering happiness.) Tharin, what are you doing here?   [Tharin] I just wanted to return your coat...and apologize.   [Aleen] Apologize for what?   [Tharin] For not trusting you with the investigation. I have a very hard time trusting anyone, the city is full of people trying...to do...bad things, anyway. I'm sorry to insult your character in that way.   [Aleen] No need to apologize, and I know what you mean about...bad people.   (Awkward silence) (Both talk at the same time)   [Aleen] Thanks for taking….   [Tharin] Well, I just wanted to…   [Aleen] I'm sorry (laughing)   [Tharin] No, I'm sorry go ahead.   [Aleen] I was just going to say, thank you for taking me to Madison Fare last night.  I know you had to, with the bet and all, but...I really had a good time thank you.   [Tharin] I also had a good time. You're quite an entertainer and I needed a break so, thank you, for...forcing me to take you.   [Aleen] We should do it again sometime.   [Tharin] (Momentary pause, considering his next words) I think we should.   [Aleen] Really?   [Tharin] Yes, really...maybe something a little less expensive next time though.   [Aleen] (Laughing) Right, I hope it didn't set you back to far.   [Tharin] No it's fine. Anyways…(breath) I'd better go. We'll talk later though?   [Aleen] Ya   [Tharin] Ok, goodbye Aleen.   [Aleen] Goodbye Tharin.   [Narrator] (Aleen closes the door behind Tharin, watching him for a moment through the looking glass. She smiles. Leaning against the door, she clutches the moment.)   [Aleen] He trusts me…   [Narrator] (Her hands dropping to her sides, her eyes widen, as concern blankets her face… [Aleen] Oh crap...he trusts me.   [Narrator]   (Aleen contemplates the dilemma before her; foster a newfound trust, or betray it.   *pause* Before us sits a warehouse at the edge the city border: windows boarded, corrugated sheets cracked, and fallen from the rooftop, rafters aged, bent and breaking. A swathe of dust would be collected on them if it were not for the mice running to and fro from their homes, rested neatly in unperturbed corners of this uninhabited warehouse.   Saris sits alone. Wrists and ankles burned by the ropes that bind him. His sight darkened by the blindfold. Alone with his thoughts, confined within the silence of this abandoned building. They practically echoed in his mind.   But what's this? Another sound? A foot step. Multiple in fact. They echo off the concrete, shaking the rust from the rafters above…)   [Jones] Moose   [Moose] Yes sir?   [Jones] It would appear our adversaries have found a way to track Saris.   [Saris] (Laughing in his evil “you're so dead” laugh)   [Jones] (Pausing for a moment to recognize Saris's laugh) So here's the plan. Saris is to be moved every 8 hours. Here's the next location, you now have 7 hours and 22 minutes and….23 seconds 22, 21. Anyways, keep him moving.   [Saris] (Laughing again at the plan) If they've already found a way to track me, your dead where you stand.   [Moose] What's the likelihood they'll find us?   [Jones] I'm told by our techs, that we have a 99.7% success rate if we move every 8 hours. That goes down by 20% every half hour afterwards. So I suggest you keep him on the move. (Jones now speaking to Saris in a calm manner) Oh and don't worry Saris, Sorrel has all but abandoned you. Hes placed Dayton in charge. The one looking for you is Tharin. So as you see Sorrel has written you off...the offer still stands if you want to, oh I don't know, help?   [Saris] (A mixture of disbelief, and potentially fostered anger) Sorrel wouldn't abandon me. Not after all that I've done for him, and Dayton won't last a week.   [Jones] Yes well...offer still stands, let me know when you wake up and realize Sorrel cares only for himself...and Dayton. (Jones starts to walk away but stops for one last comment) Oh and...one last thing...don't test my patients by pretending to care for the council. I know your disdain, and soon Sorrel will show his lack of interest in you. When that happens I'll be here to give you a...shot at revenge. Goodbye for now Saris.   (Jones leaves the room)   [Saris] Was he telling the truth Moose? Has Sorrel made Dayton Enforcer?   [Moose] Ya. It's not official yet, but as of right now...Dayton is filling the spot.   [Narrator] (Under Saris’ breath is a growl. His breath feels heavy. His chest knotted, heat rising up the back of his neck. He pulls at his bindings to distract himself. Light trickles of blood scatter on the concrete floor. A new sound, alone once again with Saris’ thoughts.)   *pause*   Tharin, frustrated sits in his car. Unsure if he is more angry by the lack of results from Ross's device, the case to find Saris, or the indent left by the wheel in the palm of his hand. Moments pass, feeling like hours. Even committing to conversation with his car, Salistine.   [Tharin] I am beyond frustrated Salistine. There are so many variables.   [Salestine] Variables you have invariably been trained in, sir.   [Tharin] Yes this is true Salistine.   [Salistine] I just want to say sir...I have done nothing but help when I can, that said sir, I was wondering if you could stop hitting my control wheel?   [Tharin] Yes of course Salistine, I'm sorry. It's just...what do I do with Ross. I know he's not sabotaging the machine, but the lack of results is quite disappointing. I mean, it's not like I can just kill him, we need him.   [Salistine] Sorry to interrupt sir, but an incoming call from councilman Grady's office, do you accept?   [Tharin] Yes of course Salistine, patch it through.   [Salistine] Patching through now sir.   [Jarrett] Tharin, are you sitting down?   [Tharin] Yes, I'm in the car why?   [Jarrett] Sorrel is about to give an address to the entire city.   [Tharin] An address about what?   [Jarrett] He thinks it's a good idea to quell some of the concern over Saris's disappearance.   [Tharin] He's actually going to tell people Saris is missing?   [Jarrett] No...hes going to tell people Saris is Ill and unable to perform his duties as Enforcer.   [Tharin] Well that's better than telling them he's missing.   [Jarrett] I don't agree that lying to the people is a good idea. He's going to dig a hole for the council.   [Tharin] Hmmm, is there anyway to delay him for a few days?   [Jarrett] No, he's going to go live in a few minutes. I have to go. The council has been requested to stand behind him in the address.   [Tharin] Of course, that way you can't deny knowing…   [Jarrett] Exactly...I'm truly concerned Tharin. Find Saris, and do it soon...or we'll have more than just his disappearance to worry about.   [Tharin] I'll do my best father.   [Jarrett] Of course you will, goodbye son.   [Tharin] Goodbye father. Salistine?   [Salistine] Yes sir?   (Salistine is interrupted by an official address. It starts with a bong then the city anthem begins)   [Sorrel] Greeting, salutations, hello and blessings be with you all. My brothers and sisters, I apologize for the interruption of your evening, but I have a grave concern. I've been notified that there are rumors flying about this fine city, about the disappearance of our beloved Saris. Know that he, our sworn protector, our refuge from chaos, our friend and our brother has not disappeared. He is right now...unable to tend to his sworn duties do to an illness, an illness that has him more than just under the weather. I feared, having to inform you of this, because I wanted to save you from the stress you might incur having heard said news. However, I also feared the rumors might cause more damage, so in the Hopes that I, councilman Sorrel, could save you the more stressful thing, I have decided to release this news to you here. My fellow citizens, the council and I care a great deal for you, so know that we always take the actions necessary to keep you all safe. This being said, we have placed Dayton in Saris's stead, til he is either able to return to his regular duties or is forced to retire his title to Dayton. I apologize for the delayed announcement, but as I said before we were hoping to save you the stress. Know that the doctors are working around the clock taking care of our Saris. I ask that you keep the hope that he will be returned to us soon...healthy and ready to resume his responsibilities. I will leave you tonight with our blessing, and pride. For we are proud of the great people of this majestic city, for the way they handle such situations. That is with confidence and courage. Until next time my brothers and Sisters...may the blessing of the council be with you always...goodnight.   [Narrator] Sorrel’s voice echoes in every corner of the city. Across all mediums, his lies spread to an all too trusting populace. Well, trust from some of “his” population. There was one set of ears in particular whose call was interrupted by the message. The man who has Saris himself. The man who without a doubt knows of Sorrel’s lies.   [Jones] Well played Sorrel, but you aren’t the only one with a hand in this game. You want to play?.....Let's play.

We talk with Stephen Krashen, Professor Emeritus at the University of California, about the teacher research knowledge gap: what do teachers need to know about second language acquisition, what are the barriers stopping them and what we can do to solve this problem. We discuss open access journals, the Grateful Dead compressible input, compressible output and evidence based language teaching.Ross Thorburn: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the TEFL Training Institute Podcast. This week, I'm very excited to tell you that our guest is Professor Stephen Krashen from the University of California. This episode, I ask Stephen Krashen about what teachers need to know and what stops them from finding out. Enjoy the interview.What Teachers Need to Know About Language LearningRoss: Stephen Krashen, welcome to the podcast. Can you start off by telling us a bit about what the teachers need to know? What sort of research and concepts, maybe, from second language acquisition do teachers most need to know about?Professor Stephen Krashen: What I want to do is talk a little bit about theory, what I call the 40 years war.Stephen Krashen: It's actually longer than that. God! You know how it is when you discover that your old pair of pants is 30 years old and your new pair is 20 years old?Stephen Krashen: That's the situation I'm in. Anyway, the 40 years war is really now nearly the 50 years war. This all started in the '70s. It's a war between two hypotheses. One of them, which I think is the good guy, I call the comprehension hypothesis. It's very simple, says we acquire language and develop literacy when we understand what we hear, when we understand what we read.Credit where credit is due. I am not the inventor of this idea. I have been mostly responsible for public relations and seeing if it's true or not, but there are several people who were there before me. In the field of literacy, Frank Smith, raging genius, in my opinion. Kenneth Goodman, the whole language people were, in my opinion, all there. They had it.We learn to read by understanding what's on the page. We learn to read by understanding messages. In the field of second language acquisition, people like James Asher, Total Physical Response, he was there before I was. Harris Winitz, a foreign language expert in the States, was there before me.A whole number of people had the idea pretty well. I do try to cite them in my work. This is what we've been working on since the '70s. We acquire language when we understand it. Here's the interesting difference, the rival hypothesis, we call skill building. Skill building and comprehension idea are complete opposites in terms of cause and effect.Comprehension hypothesis says the cause is comprehensible input. The cause is understanding what you hear and what you read. The result is vocabulary, grammar, writing style, all these things. Competence, in other words.Skill building reverses it. Skill building says the first thing you should do is study. Do things consciously and work hard. Memorize vocabulary. Learn grammar rules. Practice them in output. Get your errors corrected. Make sure it's right. Do this again, again, and again. Then someday in the distant future, you will be able to use the language.I call this a delayed gratification hypothesis. Not happiness now, but happiness later. Comprehension hypothesis says happiness now. In fact, it's got to be pleasant or it won't work. You have to have input that you understand and that you pay attention to. You'll only pay attention to it if it's interesting, if you like it, if it means something to you.The problem with skill building is that the delayed gratification never comes. In my opinion, there is not a single case of a human being on this planet who has ever acquired language using skill building. Every time you see someone who got good in a language, they've had comprehensible input. It's never there. It never exists without that.In our studies, where we compared comprehension and skill building, which is really all we've been doing for the last now 40 years or so, comprehensible input always wins. It has never lost in all the experimental research, not one. It's more effective, and it's more pleasant.My observation, and it's backed up by the research, if you look at kids in a skill building class, 95 percent of them hate it. The five percent who like it become language teachers. These are the people who love grammar, who think diagramming sentences is fun. I know because I was one of them, and I still am.It took me years to overcome my fascination with Noam Chomsky and grammar, etc. They really, really like it, but that's not how language is acquired. Two things. Comprehension hypothesis, the research supports it, does not support skill building. The comprehension hypothesis makes language acquisition pleasant and fun. Skill building makes it torture.This is win‑win, but here's the problem. For the general public, the skill building hypothesis is considered to be an axiom. People are not aware that there is an alternative. For all civilians, and even a few in our field, skill building is the only game in town.If you think we learn language by study, hard work, all the ways we torture students in school, all the grammar, exercises, all the tests, all the quizzes, they make perfect sense but that's not the way it happens.The Problem with Teachers Reading ResearchRoss: Let's talk a bit more about teachers' access in research, then. What do you think stops teachers from reading more about teaching and more about research?Stephen Krashen: Everyone complains teachers don't read. This is the general mood in the United States. That teachers are stupid, teachers are responsible for the depression, economic hard times, etc. This is part of the general attack on teachers. We have done studies on this, and teachers read a fair amount, but they don't do a lot of professional reading. My feeling is it's not their fault.There are three problems, and they're serious. One is, professional literature is extremely expensive, and it's getting more so. If you want to get latest advertisement for professional books, papers by experts, and all that, 150 American dollars. I don't know about you, but nobody can afford this stuff that I know of.Ross: Definitely not on a teacher's salary, right?Stephen Krashen: Not even on a retired professor's wage. On nobody's wage. I don't know anybody who can afford this, and they're getting more and more expensive. Journals, which used to be reasonable, you could subscribe these things for 15, 20 dollars a year, now it's way up there. Hundreds of dollars.I keep records on this because I deduct it from my taxes, but I can't afford them anymore, much too expensive, especially, if you're someone like me who tries to work in several different fields at the same time. It's not just one or two journals. I have to keep up with about 30 or 40 journals. Nobody can afford this.The only people who can are people who are current university professors, who have access to a first‑class library, and that's very few of us. It's too much money.Number two, the articles are really long, and they've gotten longer. Someone once said, "When you ask someone the time, you don't want a history of the wristwatch." People have long, long introductions. Then, at the end, they want to give everyone advice on what they should do with their research. Ridiculous. Far too long, and far too incomprehensible. Full of jargon.I wrote several paper on this called, "The Case Against Gibberish," just what goes on in the journals. They are written not to be read and understood. They're written to get published. With junior scholars, very often, it's their PhD dissertation.Someone wrote me the other day. There's a new article on age differences. That was one of my major research interests, critical period, all that. The person sent me the link to the article. The article's about 40 pages long. For me to get it, I have to pay $40, US dollars. The dollars do not go to the authors, they go to the journal.For me to read a 40‑page paper is a full day's work, and I must say I'm very good at reading. I have all the background knowledge. I've published lots of papers. I know the research very well. I've usually read already most of the citations. It takes forever to get through these things because they are so dense. They want to put in everything to show off. It's impossible. I've given up.Ross: It's long struck me as ironic in a profession that's really all about simplifying our language to the point where it can be understood by language learners, we do such a bad job of presenting useful information to teachers in a format which is easy to read.Especially, when you consider that most of the teachers out there, English teachers anyway, are non‑native speakers of English. Why do you think that happens? Why is so much TEFL literature so difficult to read?Stephen Krashen: A lot of it has to do with impressing your colleagues, basically. Making it sound profound. One of the political writers in the States made a really good argument. He says, "When you take a simple idea, and you make it very complicated, you can hide. You can say the most outrageous things and feel good about yourself. No one's going to understand it, so you're OK."Ross: That reminds of Charles Bukowski. He said that, "An artist takes a complicated idea and makes it so simple, and an academic takes a simple idea and makes it complicated."Stephen Krashen: Charles Bukowski. What a guy! [laughs] Yes.The Solution to the Teacher Researach GapRoss: That's the problem with teachers not being able to get their hands on readable and affordable research. Do you want to tell us a bit about the solution?Stephen Krashen: I have been inspired by a couple of people. First of all, there's a guy named Tim Gowers. His specialty is algebraic geometry. He announced that he was no longer submitting papers to journals. He was no longer reviewing papers for journals. Just as I said, the journals are too expensive. Nobody can do it, and it's no longer worth it.He started a petition. 17,000 scholars have signed it. Possibly every major mathematician has signed it, including my son who's a math professor. So proud of my boy. What has happened, because of Tim Gowers, is that libraries started cutting back. The mathematicians were not ordering the journals, didn't matter anymore. Now, Europe has a full‑blown campaign in favor of free, open access research.The problem with it is that if you're a junior scholar and you want to get a job, or you're an assistant professor, you want to be promoted associate, the review committees typically, except in math, have no respect for open access.This will only change if people like me, senior scholars who are not going to be reviewed anymore, and other people not worried about review, start doing it. Eventually, it will catch on.My real inspiration for this, though, was The Grateful Dead rock group. The time The Grateful Dead were touring, there was a lot of concern about piracy, about kids coming out, recording the songs and sharing it with their friends. Resales of recordings started to drop, so they policed the concerts. You may not record this, against the law, blah blah blah...The Grateful Dead turned it all around. They would start their concerts by saying, "You want to record us? Go ahead." They decided not to make money on recordings, but to make money on touring. It worked.Of course, I haven't figured out how to make money yet, but at least I'm doing the first step. [laughs] I'm not going to do it through selling books, etc. Nobody can afford them, anyway. This is the revolution. My hope is that it will spread.Ross: Fantastic. Putting this on to practice then, where can teachers go to start finding research in literature online with teaching that's easy to read and, hopefully, free?Stephen Krashen: Here's what they should do. I'm going to push my stuff, of course, because that's the whole purpose. We're talking about my career. I give stuff away for free. All you have got to do is go to sdkrashen.com. SD Krashen operators are standing by. sdkrashen.com, that's my website. There's like 300 articles posted.Please consider, ladies and gentlemen, following me on Twitter. My goal is to catch up to Justin Bieber in followers. This is probably going to take four centuries at the rate I'm going.Twitter's great. What I use Twitter for is for short announcements, my papers, my colleague's papers, and how to link to them. Occasionally, some political comments, or some really good jokes, but please follow me on Twitter. I'm also on Facebook. Just Stephen Krashen on Facebook and several other categories. I used that for, again, bad jokes, but also to tell people what's new.I think this is the future. Social media's wonderful for disseminating information. If you look at me and my stuff, you're going to find other scholars who publish free things. I have really exceptional colleagues in Korea, Kyung Sook Cho; in Japan, Beniko Mason; Taiwan, Sy‑Ying Lee; Willy Renandya now in Singapore.All of us do this stuff. We post things, etc., then you find other people. They're short, and we hope they're easy to read. It's simple and it costs nothing.Ross: Great. Thank you very much again for coming on.Stephen Krashen: OK, Ross. Thanks.Ross: We'll see you next time, everyone. Bye‑bye.Stephen Krashen: Bye‑bye.

All language lessons need a context. Language must be learned and practiced in context. Without context, students cannot remember or use new vocabulary. You've probably heard these arguments before (possibly on this podcast), but are they true? We discuss the pros and cons of context with our friend and teacher trainer (and former many other things!) Diederik Van Gorp.Tracy: Hello, everyone. Welcome back. Today we have a special guest, and this guest you've never listened to. His experience and valuable input in ELT. We have Diederik.Diederik Van Gorp: Hello, thank you. I'm very happy to be here.Tracy: Diederik...Ross Thorburn: It's awesome to have you on.Tracy: Would you like to introduce yourself?Diederik: Yes. I'm Diederik. I was born in Belgium. I got into ELT in 2001. I took my Trinity certTESOL in 2001 in winter. Pretty much went straight to China to teach, and then 17 years later I am still doing this.It brought me to very interesting places. I worked in China. I worked in Hong Kong. I worked in the States. I worked in Uzbekistan, Spain, Italy, and now, I'm back in China.I worked in, I think, probably every aspect of the industries. Obviously, teaching. Teaching all ages and levels. I was a DOS so I managed schools.I managed larger regions. The materials. I was an examiner. I wrote materials to prep people for exams.I'm a teacher trainer, mainly for Trinity. I'm also a moderator for Trinity, so I go to other courses and check if they meet the requirements, and now I'm a certTESOL trainer for Trinity. That's mainly what I do at the moment.Ross: That's it for the podcast. [laughs] It's so much experience I took 15 minutes. You were also my boss for a little while.Diederik: Yes.Ross: Correct. As I said earlier, you were probably the first person to make me realize it was more to teaching English than just flashcards and fly swats.Tracy: Finally.Ross: Today we're going to do, I think, two parts. Over at context, we could talk about, first of all, the Trinity advantages first.Diederik: Yes.Ross: Then talk about the tyranny. I thought we can call this context, "Triumph or Tyranny."Advantages of Context Ross: Let's start off with talking about some of the advantages of context. I don't know if it's since I did my diploma, it's become more and more popular or if it's just something that I've become more and more aware of. It's definitely something I've been borderline obsessed about. Might be in the past, probably too much.What of your experiences been with that and your opinions on it?Diederik: Very similar. At some point, I would say it was the only thing that I would not question in like a sacred cow context. The context has to be right, has to be relevant, has to be real‑world.When you see a lesson and the context is absolutely right. It's beautiful. The students are so talkative. They keep on going because it works but getting the context totally right is very hard.What I tell trainee teachers, "When you think about context, the more WH questions you can answer, probably the tighter the context is." If you can answer only one, then you probably just have a topic, let's say, what.The why and the when are also very important, and who are you talking to. Sometimes that's maybe one that you can't quite answer, and then you feel there's something missing in the free practice, or whatever.For example, there was one lesson I observed that was really good but it was something was lacking. It was about movies, so they were recommending movies to each other, but in the end, it was mechanical. They were doing it because they were nice students and it was nice language.In the end, there was something lacking and it was the why. Why are we talking about movies? Why are we even recommending it to each other?Just a simple thing like, "Well, today's a rainy day. OK, let's go to the cinema." There's a lot more purpose to it.I still think that the why is one of the more crucial ones.Ross: It almost seems to be like a task out come type thing. That if we had this task, then what's the result we need to get at the end?Diederik: Exactly. I think task‑based learning has had a massive influence on it. Especially it seems to be that one of it needs to be relevant, needs to be real world.Tracy: Because I think the most important thing of having the context, why the students are really motivated, because there is a connection. You talk about real‑life situations. Even though sometimes maybe something the students haven't experienced it yet, but they can see there might be a chance in the future and they can be in that situation.I think that's the intrinsic motivation for learners to be connected to that context.Diederik: Yes. It's too often forgotten, "Why are we here?" It's because you need to use it outside of the classroom, there are no flashcards there.[laughter]Tracy: Yes.Diederik: Hey, you're not going to rank or turn over flashcards and use the word in a sentence.Tracy: I was thinking, maybe we can give a little bit explanation about what context is, because when I was doing teacher training, it seems so many teachers that couldn't fully understand what it is.Ross: I was thinking about this today, sort of the context continuum perhaps. Maybe at one end, you've got turning over name and flashcards, where there's no who, what, why, when or where. We're just in a language classroom naming flashcards or the fill in the blank. What is it like, "Bob went to work by blank."[laughter]Ross: Who's Bob? Where does he work, that kind of thing.Diederik: I think at the other extreme, was maybe when the context is real, or the students might believe it to be real. Like, "We're actually talking about something that is," for example, "where are we going to go on our class outing?" Or, "Can you give me advice about learning English?" Or the teacher one, where the teacher comes in and brings in a problem and pretend it's real life, and the students then react to that.Ross: See? That is being at the far end of the continuum where it's real or you're pretending it to be real. I think slightly further down is that cafe type of situation. Maybe where, "We're in a Cafe and we're having small talk about this," and it's obviously pretend, but it's maybe realistic. Then gradually that fades away all the way down to naming flashcards.Diederik: Basically, any language doesn't exist in isolation, especially fixed expressions or sentences on larger utterances. You need context, what was said before that? What comes after, but beyond the sentence?Tracy: I'd like to share an interesting story. After a teacher, she told me, her daughter went back home, and then she asked her, "What did you learn in your English class today?" Her daughter said, "Oh, we learned something about subject plus beaver plus I‑N‑G."She said, "OK, can you make a sentence?" "No, no, no. That's what I learned, subject plus beaver plus I‑N‑G."I think that's so interesting that definitely she remembered the form, but I think the teacher didn't really explore the context and when, in what situation you were using this form.Ross: I think you've found something even further along the continuum, beyond the flashcard thing.Tracy: Yeah, yeah.Disadvantages of Context Ross: Diederik. Can you remember the moment when you started to sacrifice or question the sacred cow?Diederik: Yeah. A little bit of context first, of course.Ross: Yeah.Tracy: [laughs]Diederik: When I became a trainer for the Trinity diploma course, a relevant context ‑‑ real‑world context ‑‑ is a must‑pass criteria. For whatever reason, you cannot justify this context to. That it has to match your learner's needs, interests, everything, then it's a straight fail.OK, but then you sometimes see actually lessons that are quite interesting, students are engaged, there is a topic that obviously is new for them, they never thought about, and it's a straight fail, and I think that's a bit difficult to justify. That's where I think that something can become a bit of a straitjacket.There's so many interesting things and so much languages that you cannot immediately think of a clear context, while the context might be totally new to your learners that you just exclude it from it. That's when if context is the only guiding principle, there's so much language you can't cover, so many interesting topics that you can't do.I had a lesson on poetry. It was a straight fail. Teachers go all out of their way to come up with a context, waste 15 minutes to set something up, and you think, "Those 15 minuets could have been spent better," because it has to be a real world, so they come up with very elaborate contexts like, "Yeah, this is something I can imagine to be real."Also, there's quite a lot of language that there's no specific context for it. Talking about your childhood, talking about music, favorites, so it's like, when do you actually talk about your childhood? So you have to go all out of the way to create some kind of situation where you might be talking to somebody like that. Is that really worth all the time? I don't think so.Tracy: I think that's why I noticed when I was a trainer for CerTESOL and also assessing DIP, I feel like most of the teachers there are choosing topics like travel, holidays, and work‑related.Diederik: Yes. Airport...Tracy: Yeah.Diederik: And everything is real, and it becomes so limiting.Tracy: Exactly.Diederik: There was once a lesson about a religious cult that I saw.Ross: [laughs]Diederik: It was fascinating, but obviously, it was a straight fail, because you can't begin to justify it. Not...Ross: [laughs] Unless you're in a cult.Diederik: [laughs] Yes, exactly! It's the same. Let's say, predictions. Actually, a fun context is fortune telling. That would be a straight fail, so you go into something a bit more boring like career consultancy.You do limit it a bit if it has to be absolutely real world. I think sometimes there's a bit of negative backwash of a qualification like that becomes gospel, and that people who almost brainwashed by that experience constantly think, "Oh, it has to be relevant," that when they leave, they get a bit too much like that, and then they limit themselves in the real world. Well, it's just one thing.When I was a student of English in high school, what we talked about, it was about racism, homophobia. We were 16, 17. Those were not the topics of our choice, you know? We want to maybe talk about music or something.But there are obviously had something a bit... We want them to talk about social issues, and ethical dilemmas, and all the thing...Ross: This is an English class, is it?Diederik: Yeah.Ross: OK.Tracy: Wow.Diederik: We would never really had vocabulary lessons. I remember moving to England, I didn't know the words for Hoover.[laughter]Diederik: I could talk about social issues...[crosstalk]Ross: He means "vacuum cleaner," if you're American.Diederik: Yeah.[laughter]Diederik: In that context, you would limit yourself. I mean, the world of a 16‑year‑old and maybe many people back then maybe didn't travel that much. "What are you interested in?" "Nothing."[laughter]Diederik: "Nirvana, The Red Hot Chili Peppers..."[laughter]Ross: Even that, I think we were talking about this earlier. Even that, what's the context for talking about music? Where's this task out come for that? It's very difficult to pinpoint something.Diederik: It's very hard.Ross: Beyond going, you're in a cafe and music comes on in Starbucks. You say to you friend I don't like this.Diederik: You want to change it. You want to go to the jukebox.[laughter]Ross: We scraped all our money together. We only had [inaudible 11:26] . We could only choose the one song in the jukebox. That's it.Diederik: That was an interesting thing as well. You were talking about these ethical dilemmas. Actually, when a teacher went out of the way and would talk about something you're interested in, you didn't like it.I remember teaching something around Nirvana which was very popular back in the day. That's like, "No, no, no. That's our music. You don't touch this. This is not the classroom topic."Ross: Yeah. It seems like there was this underlying assumption that all language is used to achieve a goal, isn't there? But, of course, it's really not. If you think about this conversation, what's our goal to record it?[laughter]Ross: Why? There's no goal.Diederik: We should put waffling maybe a bit more on the pedestal. Today the context is we're going to waffle.Ross: Yeah. If you actually looked at this sort of maybe the origins of language, a lot of it comes down to forming relationships with people gossiping so that people can adhere to social standards. Even just things like thinking. The whole idea that is it possible to think if you don't know a language? Maybe it's not.The person you speak to the most in your life is yourself in your own head. What's the communication or the odds in there? You write a diary. Why? What's the point that you see?Diederik: That's a very good point. A lot is bonding. Sometimes, you showing empathy or something. Actually, not because you're friends.Ross: To wrap up then, do we have any rules or guidance or guidelines for teachers of when is it useful to adhere to context? When is it useful to stab the sacred cow?Diederik: My most recent experience of learning a language just a few years ago in Spain, I really didn't like to first stage of the lesson. It's setting the context and engaging to steer it.I don't need to see a picture of a closed shop. Let's just practice the language.Give my feedback on if I'm using the vocabulary correctly. The phrases are how much those had cost? I know that. There you could use that language.Ross: I've seen a closed shop before.Tracy: Do you think it's because of the learner like a young learner or adult learners? Do you think it's related?Diederik: I was thinking about it. Also, it had to do with my level. I was very much A1.You've got clothing items. It's basically you're in a shop. You'll ask how much it costs, what is my size? It's very concrete.Once it becomes less concrete, then indeed, you do maybe have to spend a bit more time on the context. Once you're into phrases like, "Don't worry. I'll pick you up," or something, then you do need context.At least, brainstorm ideas for context. Maybe at the lower level, sometimes it's better to just spend less time on that and just get to the practice which I guess happens in teaching learners on low levels.Tracy: Thank you so much, Diederik, for coming to our podcast.Diederik: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Patsy Lightbown, Professor, author and second language acquisition researcher tells us about language learners of different ages. Are kids better language learners than adults? Who learns languages faster? Are there any advantages to learning a language later in life? Listen to find out…Ross Thorburn: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the TEFL Training Institute Podcast. This week, we have an interview with Patsy Lightbown, who is currently professor emerita at Concordia University in Montreal, Quebec, Canada as well as being most famous for being a second-language acquisition researcher and for the fantastic book, "How Languages are Learned."In today's podcast, we talked about language learning and specifically looked into the differences between how children learn languages and how adults learn languages. I hope you enjoy the interview.Ross: Hello. Thank you. Thanks so much for coming on.Patsy Lightbown: Hi. Thanks.Ross: Let's start off by talking about how people regardless of whether they are kids or adults, how do people in general learn a language?Patsy: I would agree with most people that language learning begins when people encounter language that they understand and that they are interested in understanding. In other words, the whole idea, the comprehensible input is the beginning of language strikes me as pretty plausible.There has to be a reason for learning. One reason for learning is to understand something that you hear or try to read. Some people have long-term goals when they start to learn a language. If you don't trigger a short-term desire to understand at the moment, then the long-term goals are hard to pursue.That's one of the things about language learning that we sometimes lose sight of in the classroom that people need to have immediate goals, immediate needs and interests, understanding, and communicating what they understand, or asking questions about it.I guess that's how language learning starts. Clearly, language learning is a long, long road. That's another thing we sometimes lose sight of, certainly in formal education the idea that people can reach high levels of competence in a language, that they are exposed to for an hour or so a day.It's also pretty misguided. What I always say is the classroom language teaching is a starting point, but what you really need to learn in the classroom is how to keep learning outside the classroom.Ross: Is this the idea of creating learner autonomy? Almost that the language classroom is giving students the skills to learn a language rather than actually the knowledge of learning.Patsy: Exactly. It seems to me what the classroom has to do is to prepare students to keep learning by helping them to learn strategies for understanding, and strategies for understanding what they hear, or what they try to read, strategies for making themselves understood to people outside the classroom.Of course, now the opportunities for coming in contact with another language, the opportunities are so much greater than they were in a previous era of different kinds of communication technologies.Now there's really no excuse for not finding ways of using the language outside the classroom. You don't have to actually live in the place where the language is spoken. You can encounter the language by using technology.You have to be motivated, and you have to have the confidence. That's another thing that the classroom can build.It's the confidence that you can keep learning outside, that you can approach another individual, or that you can approach a resource, and get something from it, that you have the strategies and the skills to learn from the encounters, that you can have either in person or online through technology.Ross: How much does that happen then? In my experience, most course books don't really do that. Most teachers, definitely being guilty of this myself, probably see the classroom as the beginning and the end of language learning and teaching rather than just really a starting point.Patsy: That's a really interesting question because, of course, like everything having to do with language teaching and learning, the variations in the answer to that question probably equal the number of classrooms there are in the world.Certainly, also it would depend on the age of the learners, and things like that. If it's not happening, it ought to be happening, I could put it that way. I can't say that it's happening more often, but I believe it should be.I don't know why it wouldn't be, but when you started out this piece of our conversation saying that unfortunately teachers do tend to believe that the classroom is the be-all and end-all, I think students may be convinced on that as well.I'm arguing that if teachers are not encouraging students to continue learning outside the classroom, then that should be a priority in teacher education that we say to teachers, "Prepare your students to learn outside the classroom."If we turn to the research domain, that would back that up. You may be aware that I've written some about phenomenon in cognitive psychology called "Transfer Appropriate Learning" or "Transfer Appropriate Processing."The idea behind that is that when we learn something, we learn not just the something that we are trying to learn, but we also internalize features and factors that are present in the environment where we're learning it.If all of our learning takes place not just in a classroom, but within the traditional definition of a classroom where teachers ask questions and students answer, then we're not preparing people to continue using language in other environments where they do the questioning.For example, or where the opportunities for using the language are very different from those of a classroom environment.Transfer Appropriate Processing would tell us that we need to get students experiences in the classroom that prepare them for using language outside the classroom.It's the thing such as making the language that they are exposed to, challenging, age appropriate, interesting, and all of those things that sometimes get lost in classroom instruction.[music]Ross: Let's talk about some of the differences between young learners and adults. How do those groups learn languages differently? Maybe, also, what might be similar between the two groups?Patsy: It seems to me that one of the biggest differences between child learners and older learners is that child learners are more willing to accept that they're learning. They're learning all sorts of things.We're talking here about a classic foreign language learning situation where the students are in a class where now we are learning English or now we are learning French. Now, we are learning science, math, or history.Young learners are more accepting of that. It's like a suspension of disbelief. You're not sitting in the classroom saying, "Why am I learning this?" You're sitting in the classroom saying, "I'm learning this because it's the English class. That's why I'm here." When you're dealing with older learners, I think the issue of why I'm learning this becomes more important to them.For one thing, they don't have as much time to lose as children do. Not time to lose, but they want to see results. The evidence is that older learners can learn more quickly than younger learners in a classroom setting. We've got lots of research to show that.Adults are certainly more able to use their intentional or explicit knowledge because they have more of it. They're able to build on it more than children can.Probably the most important thing is that adults don't have the time to learn something that's not important on the grounds that eventually it will be important, whereas I think children are more forgiving, and more willing to do what the teacher says.As students get older, they feel the pressure of time. I think that's especially true for people who are in second-language learning situations, as contrasted to foreign language learning situations.It depends on what their goals are. If they are learning the language, so let's say that they can travel or go and study abroad, then they also feel the pressure of time. Time is the thing that older learners have less of because there are so many other things that they have to do with their time.Ross: There must be a limit to that, though in that maybe adults are faster in some settings. I've read research on the critical age hypothesis. If you start learning a second language beyond a certain age, you'll never going to be able to sound like a native speaker.It's very, very difficult, whereas if you are immersed in a language before a certain age, then almost everyone ends up learning the language to the level of a native speaker.Patsy: Then you've also hit on the idea of becoming like or sounding like a native speaker. I think people have finally got over that. I hope. I'd like to think so. That is not the goal of most language teaching and learning.Sounding like a native speaker is not something that most language students aspire to. What they aspire to is reaching a level of proficiency that allows them to make themselves understood and to understand what they need to understand without aspiring to sound like native speakers.You can say the older learner learns more quickly, but may reach a certain plateau in some aspects of language learning. There are so many successful older learners. Focusing on what older learners can't do is pretty self-defeating.I think we need to focus more on what they can do and emphasize the remarkable success of many older learners if they are given the right instruction.If realistic expectations are set or how much time they need, that's part of the problem that people think they can, not just because of commercial ads, learn French in six months. People are unrealistic in their expectations of what they can accomplish in a very limited time.Adults sometimes get frustrated because they've been going to their evening class three days a week for six months, and they still can't do this x, y and z.Part of our job as teachers and as researchers is to reassure people that they are learning and that they will continue to learn that. Just because they have been studying for six months doesn't mean that they should be now fluent and competent in the language. It takes a long time.That's one thing we definitely know about language learning. It takes a long time to acquire high levels of proficiency, and it takes a long time of re-using the language in a great variety of situations.If you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you'll get very good at that thing, but you need to be able to use language in a great variety of settings in order to get good at using it in a variety of settings. All of that takes time, more time than people ever realized.One of the biggest limitations for adults is not their intellectual, or cognitive, or whatever language learning ability that would allow them to acquire another language, but just the amount of time they have to devote to it.Ross: It's interesting. In my own experience learning Chinese, I found a few years ago that my Chinese was quite good conversationally, and then I moved to a Chinese company and started attending meetings that were in Chinese. It was so difficult.I found I could hardly understand anything and they're all this vocabulary about costs, and turnover, and profits. There was so much of it. It was incredibly difficult to understand even though I thought I had the background and the grammar, but in terms of the vocabulary it was so difficult.Patsy: That's really interesting. I'm sure, again, this is one of those things that we've talked about for years but when Jim Cummins first started talking about the difference between basic interpersonal communication skills and cognitive academic language proficiency.People were shocked that he said that it would take children five to seven years to achieve cognitive academic language proficiency, even though it would take them only, maybe, one or two years to achieve this interpersonal communication skill.Over and over again the research demonstrates that it takes years. It takes not just the passage of time chronologically, but the actual engagement in different kinds of activities and in different contexts, because it goes back to the transfer appropriate processing.You have to have the experience of a particular kind of language use in order to be prepared to use the language in that way outside the classroom.Ross: That was Professor Patsy Lightbown. If you want to find out more about her work, you can go to her website. There's a link on our links page. You might also want to check out two of her books. One of them is called "Focus On Content-Based Language Teaching" from Oxford University Press, or "How Languages Are Learned" co-authored with Nina Spada.Hope you enjoyed the podcast and see you again next time.

In this instalment of B-Sides, we're sharing some of the mistakes we see people making on social media, and how you can avoid making them.Highlights:We talk about the pros and cons of using multiple platforms vs focusing your energies on just one or twoSo much of social media success comes down to trial and error and finding what works for you, as everyone is different"Focus on what you enjoy, and where your audience are, and you’ll be on the right track." -Ross"It’s called SOCIAL media for a reason!" - Ross"Too many people tend to just shout about upcoming releases and shows, rather than investing time in getting to know the people who follow them." -MarcioWe talk about the importance of building two-way relationships over social media"If you can build connections with the people who follow you, then they’re more likely to want to support you because they like you and feel valued!" -RossWe talk about people not doing their research when it comes to contacting music industry professionals via social media"If you’re sending someone your music because you’re seeking management, it’s probably a good idea to find out if they’re involved in management FIRST!" -Ross"If you want to be featured on a podcast or magazine, check that they cover your genre of music, or that they accept submissions at all!" -Marcio"Make sure any communication you have is personal and you’re not just demanding someone does something for you" -RossSponsors:Social Surge See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Find out how to help students apply their learning, how teachers can apply what they learning on teacher training courses and what trainers and teacher educators can do to encourage teachers to apply more of what they learn in professional developmentRoss Thorburn: All right. Hi, everyone.Matt Courtois: Hey, Ross.Ross: Good to see you again, Matt. Today we have on the podcast special guest, Karin Xie. Hi, Karin.Karin Xie: Hello, everyone! This is Karin.Ross: Do you want to tell us a bit about what you do, Karin?Karin: I'm a teacher trainer.Matt: Great. You work at a test prep school, right?Karin: Yeah. The teachers in my schools, they help students get ready for studying overseas.Ross: I think one of the interesting things about that, especially in the test prep industry, is we often see that students go to study English. They get prepared to take their IELTS or TOEFL. They go abroad and they can't actually speak English.Karin: Yeah, they mention that it's really hard for them to apply what they learned in the classes here when they go to college overseas.Ross: Yeah. We often see the same thing on teacher training courses, as well. We sometimes see people taking a CertTESOL, like an entry‑level qualification. Then, six months later, they're actually worse than they were when they finished. It's like they learned all this stuff but they haven't been able to apply it.Matt: It's amazing. They would spend 120 hours studying something and not improve from it. I don't know how that would happen.Ross: Absolutely. Today, let's talk about that and let's talk about how we can get people to apply learning. We have three questions. The first one is, how can teachers help students apply learning? The second one is...Karin: How can teachers apply what they have learned themselves into their teaching practice?Ross: And Matt?Matt: How can trainers help teachers apply learning?How Can Teachers Help Students Apply Learning Ross: Cool. OK, let's start off with teachers helping students. The classic thing here is that we want students to speak. That seems to be the industry standard for are you applying it. You have to get students to speak as much as they can by the end of the lesson. What do you guys think of that? Is that a useful paradigm?Matt: I always found it frustrating when I was a teacher to see my colleagues...I think a really common piece of advice is that you should study 10 new words a day or five new words a day. I know for me, with my Chinese...Ross: [laughs]Matt: ...I'm not very good at Chinese as you guys...Ross: That's why I laughed. Yeah.[laughter]Matt: Maybe you guys, because you're much better at Chinese than me and your English is much better than my Chinese. I have always looked at the CEFR thing and what I can do and...Ross: Order beer.Matt: Yeah. I can...Ross: Ask for the bill.Matt: I can flirt with a girl for maybe one minute.Ross: [laughs] That's all it takes.Matt: Yeah.[laughter]Matt: No, I can take a taxi. I can order food in a restaurant. That's how I measure my ability in Chinese. Is that how you guys measure...?Karin: I guess the reason that people quantify things like that is, as teachers, we need evidence of learning. If we have something like "by the end of this lesson, students would have learned these words," it's easier for teachers to evaluate their classes. They need to be aware that when teachers think they are teaching, there's not necessarily learning that's happening.Ross: Yeah. That's interesting. It reminds me of that thing, the management quote of "What gets measured gets managed." This idea that if you measure sales numbers, if that's your quantity, that becomes the most important thing in the company, what everyone gets focused on. Maybe it's the same thing in the classroom.If the easiest thing to measure is how many words can a student say by the end of the lesson, that's what the teacher ends up managing and focusing on in the class. Maybe that's not necessarily the best thing to do, right?Karin: Yeah. It reminds me of Bloom's taxonomy because when we say applying, what do we mean? What would students need to be able to do when they apply? That's like a lot of words. For example, you have things that's remembering, understanding, then analyzing, evaluating.When we want students to apply what they have learned, we could have them name things that they've learned. Name the five words that they've learned. We could have them compare what they learned in this class back to what they learned previously. We could have them evaluated, like their own learning.Ross: Yeah. Interesting. This reminds me of something I heard on the Sinica podcast. They looked at one of the differences between American and Chinese education. They talk about how Chinese education tends to focus a lot on memorization whereas what I think a lot happens in the West is that we focus on getting students to apply things.Tracy: What the Boston teacher was really great at doing is introducing a concept and then asking kids, what do you think about it? Not only that, let's apply what we just learned. The Shanghai classroom is really run very military‑style. There are 30 kids in a room and she's calling them by number, "Student number two, what is the square root of 9?" or whatever it is.Kids are popping up and answering her questions. It feels like a drill. It's like drill and kill. If you actually talk to the experts, there are certain things in math that you need to memorize.In Shanghai, at least, multiplication tables are being cemented to memory in something like the second grade. In the average American public school classroom it's not happening until a couple years later. These international math experts are saying that's a little bit too late.Matt: Even Michael Lewis for the lexical approach is all about experimenting with lexes you know in different context and everything. Even he in his book believed in the early stages of learning. He said like, "You do just need to memorize a bunch of words or you can never experiment with language in different context."Karin: I agree, yeah. There's a balance we need to have there, either the Chinese one that you mentioned or the Western one. What we need to is to remind teachers to have a variety in their classrooms so they could have the access to understand or to memorize things as well as things to compare or to evaluate.Ross: Yeah, as Matt was saying, to apply that into role‑playing, taking a taxi or flirting with someone at a bar.[laughter]Matt: Useful.How Can Teachers Apply What They Have Learned Themselves Into Their Teaching PracticeRoss: Let's talk about how can teachers themselves apply what they've learned. I thought here, it might be useful for us, in an egotistical way, to talk about ourselves. We've all done a bunch of different certificate courses and diploma courses before. What did you guys find, as a teacher learner on those courses, helped you apply what you learned? Not everyone does, right?Matt: I definitely found that I improved most as a teacher once I became a trainer.Karin: Same here.Matt: I always try to incorporate into my trainings, maybe I do it too much. I always get the trainees training other trainees.Ross: I think, for me, one of the differences in our backgrounds is that more of my background is in teaching kids than teaching adults. I always find one of the big advantages of teaching kids is they don't really have a lot in the way of expectations of what you will do in class.I found, when I was studying my diploma, I had so much opportunity to experiment in class. For example, I remember reading about the silent way and thinking, "I wonder if I could teach a class for an hour without talking." I tried it and I could.I don't think it was a great class, [laughs] but it was a great opportunity to practice what times is it not necessary to speak and what different things can I get students to do that I wouldn't do otherwise. That's something you can never do with adults because you never really have those opportunity. If you did that in an adult class, you'd get complaints.[laughter]Matt: Sure.Ross: I wanted to ask you guys, how much were you able to experiment by teaching adults? For me, with kids, it was super easy.Matt: I just think it's cool. I'm just thinking about feedback I heard from people who were taking the Dip. They would be reading about pedagogy and reading about all these classroom methods. Often they'd come to me and say, "Oh, this is fine but we're just reading about theory." I always found that so strange because it is theory about what you're doing.[crosstalk]Ross: It's theory about a practice.[laughter]Matt: Yeah, I think it's cool to hear that, as you were reading those books, you were actually applying the theories that you were reading. Often, myself included, I just read it as extra knowledge that I could have rather than something that I should be doing.Karin: When I first finished my CertTESOL course, I felt that I couldn't find opportunities to apply what I learned because during the course, I had to design classes from scratch for group of learners, consistently.When I went back to my own teaching, the classes were all made and I had to follow the classes. The flexibility of me adapting the classes is really limited comparing to what I did during the course.Ross: On training courses, we often train people to plan a class from scratch and teach that class. At least in most of the places I've worked in, that's not the situation.What people need to learn to do is not plan a lesson from scratch but follow and adapt a plan that someone else has made. Those are quite different skills. I feel that's an area where a lot of training courses don't really match up to the reality of teaching practice.How Can Trainers Help Teachers Apply LearningRoss: Guys, how do you think trainers or training systems and training courses can help teachers better apply their learning?Matt: We were talking about before, with the DipTESOL that I think it is a really good system, overall, for the whole course because it does assess every aspect of ability to be a professional in this industry. Not only do you have to be pretty good in the classroom, but you also have to be able to do research and be able to observe other teachers and talk about phonology.Ross: Yeah, and be able to answer questions about grammar on the spot, like you might get in the classroom as well.Matt: Yes. I found that maybe before the Dip. I did have some strengths as a teacher before the Dip, but by going through that process, I also had some glaring weaknesses. I became much more well‑rounded as a professional in this industry because of that course.Karin: It's really important for us trainers to encourage teacher‑learner autonomy and reflective practice because, at the end of the day, it's down to the teachers to decide how and when they're going to apply what they've learned.At the beginning of the course or even before the course starts, we really need to deal with the matter learning side of it so that teachers are reflective and teachers are autonomous.Ross: Yeah. I think that's a super good point. A lot of time, on courses, teachers do get all these opportunities to learn through peer observations, especially certificate‑level course, through observing their trainers, through teaching themselves, through getting feedback, through doing all these different things, doing research, interviewing students, blah‑blah‑blah.We could do a much better job of making them more aware of why they're going through that process and then making that learning on a metacognitive level, really explicit to people. The reason we're doing this is so you now have the skill to observe someone else, who's also a new teacher, not a great teacher, and you can learn something about your own teaching from that.Matt: Then that bit of the portfolio which, at the time, I think I didn't value very much...I bet all three of us, since we've started our new jobs and stuff, we've written our own rubrics for observing lessons. We were able to do that on that course, get feedback on it, test it out, try it and do it in a methodical way.It wasn't the first time on my job where I was going through this process, or, I don't know, writing a survey to ask for feedback from a training session that I'd written. It's not the first time I've written a survey, either, because it was taken care of that course.I mean, as I was going through it, I didn't value it. It wasn't really made explicit to me that these are skills that I will need in the future. As time went by, I look back at it and I appreciate that I went through that process.Ross: Yeah.What's Important In Applying LearningRoss: To wrap up, I need some final thoughts on what's important in applying learning.Karin: My advice is that you could do what Steve Jobs suggested. Take everything you do in your learning and your teacher learning as different dots and just bear in mind that those dots could be connected.Whatever you do or whatever you learn, for example, training course that you attended, some classes that you observed, some students that you've taught, really see them as something that's relevant to each other and constantly look back to see if you could connect the dots.Ross: OK, bye‑bye.Matt: See you!Karin: See you!

We celebrate our second anniversary episode by interviewing Emeritus Professor Paul Nation about reading. Paul tells us about research into the effectiveness of reading, why as teachers we tend to avoid including reading in our classes and how we can start doing more reading in class.Ross Thorburn: Hello everyone. Welcome to this second anniversary podcast. Today, we're going to talk about something that we've not talked about much before on the podcast which is reading. I know we always say we have a special guest but today, we really have a very, very, very special guest.Tracy: He's a true world expert on reading, Paul Nation. I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with Paul Nation. Paul is emeritus professor at the School of Applied Linguistics and Applied Language at Victoria University, New Zealand.Written dozens of books and been publishing research on these topics since 1970s. There are three areas that we're going to talk about. The first one is, how does reading help students learn vocabulary?Ross: Second, we'll ask, how can teachers include more reading in their lessons? Finally...Tracy: Why isn't there more reading in most language courses?How does reading help students learn vocabulary?Ross: Hi, Paul.Paul Nation: Hello.Ross: Thanks so much for coming on the podcast.Paul: No problem.Ross: Do you want to start off by telling us a bit about vocabulary teaching and how reading relates to vocabulary teaching?Paul: The problem with vocabulary is when it's framed as teaching vocabulary because most of vocabulary learning will occur not through the teacher teaching, but through the teacher planning well, organizing well and providing opportunities for the learners to develop strategies to take control of their own learning.There are just too many words for teachers to be able to teach them. Really, we have to see learning of vocabulary is really occurring through input which is very, very important. Learning through output and learning through fluency development, but also learning through some teaching and then through deliberate learning and so on like that.I think that's really important because otherwise, teachers feel that they're the only source of vocabulary for the learners in the classroom. That's a very wrong view indeed.Tracy: That's really interesting. Does that mean teachers aren't really that important then in language learning?Paul: I didn't say the teachers weren't important. I said teaching was not important. There's an important difference. That comes back to what you see as the role of the teacher or the roles of the teacher. I put planning as the number one role of the teacher.From a vocabulary perspective, planning involves working out what vocabulary your learners already know and making sure that they have plenty of opportunities to learn that vocabulary.It's deciding what vocabulary your learners need to learn and then making sure that they have plenty of opportunities to learn it. If we just take meaning‑focused input, teachers need to know and the learners need to know how many words they know. Then what level of graded readers they should be working on in order to help expand their vocabulary through input.The teachers' roles are very important because it's, first of all, making sure that learners were spending time reading at the right level for the students so that they have the opportunity to learn vocabulary through guessing from context and through some dictionary lookup and so on as they do reading in order for that to happen.If you had a really good extensive reading program that learners were spending anything from half an hour to an hour or two a week on and maybe more, they could be learning at a rate of around about a thousand words a year, which would be a native speaker rate of learning.The teacher has a good job to play there, a very important job to play but the teacher is not teaching. The teacher is making sure that the materials are available to the students.The students know why they're doing it. The students are, therefore, motivated and they're getting some feedback on their progress. The teacher needs to do all those things but it's not fronting up saying, "This word means X and that word means Y." It's getting the learning going.Ross: I'd heard before that the big problem with reading is that it's actually much harder to guess from context than most of us assume. Something like students need to know. Is it 95 percent of words in a text?Paul: Yeah.Ross: If you're getting that correctly.Paul: That's 98.Ross: Right, 98 percent. How do you reconcile those two areas, that guessing from context is really difficult, but reading is also extremely helpful and helping learners build up their vocabulary?Paul: It depends on the standard used for guessing. You have to view knowledge of words developing over time. If you meet a word in a reading and you have a guess at its meaning, and your guess is good enough for you to carry on reading, you might have added only a little bit of knowledge about that word to your knowledge of words.When you meet it again, the next time you'll add a little bit more knowledge. You can show...if you set your standard of knowledge for one meeting with a word is high, you can say, "Oh, people don't learn anything from context."It's just to have the guess the full meaning of a word from one meeting. That's absolutely true. All of research on learning from context used to have this problem of saying, "Well, actually, we know that people learn from context, especially native speakers, but it's very difficult to show it experimentally."You've got to see that when you guess from context, it's something which you're going to have to keep doing for the same word a dozen times at least. Each time you're building up knowledge, strengthening knowledge and enriching your knowledge of that word.How can teachers include more reading in their lessons?Tracy: I read about some other studies before. Students, they make some really, really good progress in using graded readers. The progress was even bigger than attending teacher lec classes.Have you ever seen any other examples of people applying these ideas? For example, they have a school and using these ideas, and then they provide the students an opportunity environment to read more.Paul: I always like giving the example of a language school in Tokyo that I heard about and couldn't believe. I went along to see it. This language school is...But I think they call it a Juku. Juku is where kids after the normal school day go and spend three hours, say from 6:00 to 9:00 in the evening doing study.It's a private language school. The parents have to pay money for them to go. They have to take time away from their lives to go to it. They might go to one three‑hour class a week or maybe two.This language school for at least half of that three hours simply gets the students to sit down and read. They can choose the book. They'll get a guidance and advice on what books to choose. Each classroom has lots and lots of books graded readers and text written for native speakers.Some of the students, if they wish, can actually spend the whole three hours doing extensive reading. Most choose not to do that. Most do one and a half hours and then they have one and a half hours session of conversation with a native speaker.The guy who owns these schools is making a fortune. He's really doing well. His results in the entry exams to universities are so good. That word of mouth just keeps them coming and the students love it.I couldn't believe that parents were paying a lot of money for their kids to go to a language school where for at least half of the time they sat down and read while the teacher sat in front of the classroom and just did other irrelevant work.I went along and sort, and oh boy, it was working well. The teacher said, "Here, you watch." This was the owner of the school, actually. He said to the students in this particular class I was observing, "Do you like coming to these classes and doing them?" Of course, being obedient students all the hands went up but I think they made it.He said, "Now, watch this." The next question was, "Would you do this at home?" Only about two or three hands came up. They said, "Well, at home, we're just too busy. There are too many other things to do at home. Even though we could sit at home for an hour and a half, or also each week and quietly read."There's so many other...We got homework to do, there is computer games to play and all of these things. We just never get around to it." Having to come to this class and sit down and do it. I was talking to some of them after the class and they were really proficient.Ross: It sounds a bit like going to the gym, doesn't it? That example of, if you pay for the gym, but a lot of the things that you're doing at the gym, you could just do a home. Actually, if you don't pay for the gym, probably none of those things you end up doing at home for whatever reason. Right?Paul: You don't. No, I know. You don't. That's right. Once you have a dedicated time where your money is being paid out and that sort...people ask about extensive reading, "Why don't we just get the students to do it at home?"There is a research which shows, in fact, you're much better starting off in the classroom at least. For the start at least of getting to do it because then you make sure that they do it. Then you make sure that they suddenly come to the realization that in fact, there are books that they can read, understand, enjoy, which are at the right level for them.That's quite a revelation. A lot of students have never read a book in English from the beginning to the end. Through well‑planned extensive reading program, they should be reaching the end of a book at least once or twice a week.Tracy: Paul, those students that you just mentioned, they're younger learners rather than adults?Paul: They were teenagers. I think that were getting off to university in a year or two.Tracy: Is it possible to use graded readers with younger learners?Paul: You can have meaning‑focused input right from the very beginning stages of learning English. The lowest level of graded readers assume knowledge of 100 different words. You could start from that and the second or third week of a course if you really was switched on.Why isn't there more reading in most language courses?Ross: Why is it then that all English schools don't actually have more reading in their curriculum? Pretty much everywhere I've ever worked there's been some reading in courses but it's been a very small one.Paul: That's right. The research on extensive reading is clear. We know how much extensive reading learners need to do. We know that very, very significant progress can be made through doing extensive reading. Every teacher should read the book "Flood Study" by Warwick Elley and Francis Mangubhai.It's only about a 20‑page or so report, but it's such a significant piece of research showing that by getting meaningful input and comprehensible input as a significant part of the program, learners can make almost double their learning compared to a teacher in front of a class.The researchers are clear on that but teachers are very reluctant to take up the option of extensive reading. One of the reasons is that if you have a really good extensive reading program, once it's running, once it's planned, organized and set up, the teacher has little to do. Teachers feel guilty about that.They feel, "How can learners learn without me teaching them?" That's one of the false beliefs. Then, "Here are the learners working away and I'm doing nothing. Am I earning my money?" You could say, "Well, the teachers are very conscientious and things like that." It worries them that they do that.Ross: I presume that you need pretty interesting and engaging books for the students for all this stuff to work then...Paul: I would think so. In the Elley and Mangubhai study, they found that actually there was quite a lot of agreement among students on the books that they liked. The books that they liked, the books that native speaking kids also liked. The material also has to be at the right level for the students.You need to get the good books. The good books part is really easy because every year the Extensive Reading Foundation runs a competition for the best graded readers. That's been going on for...I don't know, maybe 10, 15 years now. You can simply go to their website and find the best ones.More from Paul NationTracy: Thanks very much for coming to our podcast.Paul: No problem.Tracy: I'm sure our listeners would really appreciate all the valuable information you shared with us.Ross: Everyone, highly recommend that you go into Paul's University of Victoria web page. I'll put a link for that on our website. You can find lots of great resources from in there, vocabulary tests, free books, etc.Tracy: Thanks everybody for listening to our podcast for the last two years and then really appreciate your support.Ross: Bye.Tracy: Bye.

Teacher talk. It was good, then it was bad, now it's good again. Are you confused? We are! We look at teacher talk from four different perspectives - time, aim, language and quality (or TALK for short).Tracy Yu: Hi, everyone, welcome to our podcast.Ross Thorburn: Hi. Something we do a lot on this podcast is...Tracy: Talking. [laughs]Ross: Exactly. Something that teachers are often told not to do is...Tracy: Talking.Ross: Yeah, right. I put teacher talk into YouTube and here are the short clips from the beginnings of three of the videos on the first page of YouTube.[video]James: Hi, I'm James and this week, I have three tips on how to reduce teacher talk time in the classroom.Man 1: What percentage of time do you talk in your class? The typical research shows that we as teachers talk somewhere between 60 and 80 percent of the time. Maybe we need to reduce that.Man 2: In this video, we're going to talk about how to reduce your teacher talk time.Tracy: It's really interesting. Seems the information kind of negative in terms of the teacher talk. Why is that?Ross: The general attitude in the industry a lot of the time is teachers should talk less so students can talk more. There's lots of other people that actually say the opposite. Penny Ur, who you know I'm a big fan of, she in her book "100 Teaching Tips" says that teachers should talk a lot.Our friend Dave Weller, he's got a blog post called Why I love Teacher Talking Time saying that sometimes it's really good for teachers to talk more.Tracy: Instead of discussing three questions, this time we are going to look at...Ross: Four aspects of teacher talk.Tracy: They are...Ross: First one is...Tracy: Time, and then how much time that the teacher should speak in the class. The second one...Ross: ...is the aim. Why are teachers talking? Third...Tracy: ...is language and what language they are using when they are talking. The last one...Ross: ...is the quality of what teachers are actually saying. Is it things that are going to be useful for the students or not.Tracy: They are T‑A‑L‑Q, no?Ross: T‑A‑L‑K.[laughter]Tracy: Kwality. TALK.TALKTracy: The first part is time. Like you mentioned at the very beginning, I think a lot of teachers were told, "Reduce your teacher talk time." What will that mean?Ross: I think before we talk about what it means, we can talk about why people say that. There's a misconception that the less teachers talk, the more students talk and the more students talk, the more students learn. I think that's a massive over‑simplification of what makes a good language class or what leads to language learning.Tracy: Yeah, because sometimes teachers, they do need to talk more. [laughs]Ross: Exactly. I remember, for example, observing classes before and marking teachers down for teacher talk because they didn't talk enough. They needed to explain something more to their students, for example, and they didn't talk enough.Tracy: That's interesting.Ross: I've heard of crazy policies from somewhere you used to work. Did they not have like, they even made a ratio of how much teachers were allowed to talk in some classes to how much students were allowed to talk, which to me is just absolutely nuts? It's crazy.[laughter]Ross: I heard teachers talking about like, "I wasn't allowed to correct a student error because my company won't let me talk more than whatever is 10 percent of the time in class." If you're doing a class that's focused on listening, then I think it's OK if the students aren't talking very much and the teachers' talking most of the time.It probably depends a bit on the level as well. If I was teaching very young learners, I'd probably end up talking a lot more than if I was teaching advanced level adults.Tracy: I think you mentioned a lot why teachers need to talk. Also, on the other hand, when you think about when teacher...Ross: ...need to shut up.[laughter]Tracy: Yeah, don't need to talk that much. For example, we also experience the silence. You see the students struggle in activities or learning process. I think teacher naturally want to facilitate and give a lot of support to the students and then move on to the next stage. That few minutes or few seconds are so precious just to let them to figure out and ask each other, have a discussion.Maybe use a first language and they can clarify the meaning. I think that's really, really important for the learners. Digest information by themselves rather than passively accept the concept from the teacher. Naturally, we are teacher, we want to help people, so we always want to give them more rather than...Ross: Rather than figure it out themselves.Tracy: Yeah. Don't steal that moment from your students. Another thing that I usually suggest to teachers is actually instead of statement, asking questions.Ross: Can you give us an example?Tracy: For example, if I say, "Hey, Ross and Tracy, you did a very good job. Well done. And you used these words correctly and you used these tenses very well, blah blah blah." You can just ask a question.Ross: You would take that and instead, you say, "Oh, guys, what do you think you did a good job of there, how did you manage to complete that activity?"Tracy: Yeah, something like that. You are giving the students more chance to reflect on what they did and how they did it rather than you summarize what you saw.AIMRoss: Let's talk about the aim. Why should teachers talk? What is the aim in teachers' talking in the class? [laughs]Tracy: I think there are some fundamental functions of teacher talk. Number one is giving instruction. The second one is probably clarification.Ross: Explaining?Tracy: Yeah, explaining. What else?Ross: Correcting errors. I think eliciting as well, we mentioned that earlier. Asking questions to get the students to reflect or to say things. Building relationships and building rapport with the students. Little things making jokes, trying to use people's names. All those things help to reduce student anxiety and all that kind of stuff.Especially with young learners, storytelling is a big one. I know Dave Wellers is a big fan of that. I think all those things together are giving students comprehensible input, which is going to help them learn the language.I think I've read Stephen Krashen talk about this, and say that one of the main things that students are paying for or getting out of a language class is someone that's speaking in a specific way that's tailored to them. You are paying for a professional that's really good at changing the way they speak for the students. All those things together should help the students pick up language.Tracy: I also think about how your language help you and the students personalize lesson or the content. For example, we watched a class together the other day. If you remember in the video, the teacher basically went through all the PowerPoints.Ross: Yeah, she was teaching how old are you but didn't actually ever take the time [laughs] to ask the students how old they were.Tracy: Yeah, I think that's a great opportunity to personalize the materials and also make the lesson more engaging relating to the kids. Like how old are you and how old is your mom, how old is your best friend? This kind of thing, and that's definitely necessary teacher talk.Also, a lot of people are actually using PowerPoint. It seems so much information included on the slide. I think that's also indirect teacher talk. Maybe teachers think, "OK, I put everything on the PowerPoint, and I don't say anything, that means I reduce teacher talk time," but actually it's not.Ross: We mentioned there then some good aims for why you might talk, good reasons why you might talk. What are some bad reasons why teachers talk?Tracy: Just repeating themselves?Ross: Yeah, or even repeating the students. Echoing.Tracy: Yeah. I think I have different ideas about echoing. I don't think it's that bad sometimes because especially with younger learners, you probably want to emphasize something, so you have to repeat. I don't think it's all bad. It seems echoing is such a taboo word in teaching, but I don't think it's that bad. Sometimes, you probably want to say something to reinforce some positive behavior.Ross: It does actually sometimes happen in real life. Actually, I can play an example of...this is Axl Rose from Guns n' Roses being interviewed. Check how often the interviewer echoes what Axl Rose says.[video]Jimmy: How old were you when you moved to Hollywood?Axl Rose: I think 19.Jimmy: 19 years old, and you came by yourself?Axl: Yeah, I hitchhiked out here.Jimmy: You hitchhiked, wow. You hitchhiked. How long was it before you guys started making money as a professional musician?Axl: A few years after we got Appetite going.LANGUAGERoss: Let's talk a bit about language. I think it's something that pretty much all new teachers, and certainly I had a very difficult time doing was grading my language, which just means simplifying what you say for the students.Before I went to university, I lived in one fairly small town my whole life. Before I went to university, I don't like I realized what words that I used were words that only me, my family used, words which only me and my friends used, words which are only from that town, words which were just...Scottish.Tracy: Aye. [laughs]Ross: Yes, that's one for yes. Maybe I knew that but for example, word like, messages, like, "Go to get your messages." Where I'm from, that means go and do your shopping, like your weekly shopping.Tracy: Really?Ross: Yeah, or right now you could say, so it's five past 8:00, you could say right now it's the back of 8:00. I remember saying something that to someone at university, "I'll meet you at the back of 8:00," and the person said, "What does that mean?" I was like, "Back of 8:00, like 5 past, 10 past 8:00." They have no idea.That process of learning to grade your language, it's very difficult to pick up quickly.Tracy: Yeah, that's a very, very good point. Actually, I'm doing training, usually we focus on language, and we try not to use difficult words but how do we define difficult words?Even you're teaching in the same foreign country, but different level students and different area they probably exposed to certain topics or things or access to Internet and what they, what they encounter every day is so different. It definitely takes time for people to realize what...Ross: What's easy and what's hard?Tracy: Yeah.KWALITYRoss: Let's talk about the quality. The thing I wanted to bring up here is the idea that students come to class, and you know the classic joke of the student says to the teacher, "Oh sorry, I'm late." Teacher says, "Why are you late?" The student said, "My dog dead today," and the teacher says, "Your dog died today. Now go and sit down." Is it not funny?Tracy: I've never heard that.Ross: It's like the teachers correcting the student instead of responding to them naturally. This idea that you want to respond to the students naturally in the class because that's how people are going to respond to them in the outside world. You don't always have to be in this teacher mode where you are giving instructions or correcting errors. You can respond to them like a real person.TEACHER TALK WRAP UPRoss: Hopefully, that helped as a bit of a model. Instead of saying that teacher talk is good or teacher talk is bad, I think when you come to think about teacher talk, you can look at it in those four different aspects. How long are you talking for, the time? Why you are talking, so what's the Aim? What Language are you using? Finally, is it good Quality or not, so T‑A‑L‑K.Anything else, Tracy, before we finish?Tracy: When we're a little baby and [laughs] we can only handle a small amount of food, but we have maybe more times every day. Maybe I don't know four or five meals per day and when we grow up and we have more food each time.Ross: Fewer meals altogether.Tracy: Yeah, so I'm thinking maybe it's similar to teacher talk. With different group of learners like young learners, you probably want to use teacher talk a little bit...Ross: At a time maybe but more for the adolescent.Tracy: Yeah, with adult learners, maybe each time that they can handle a longer period of time and then try to reduce the number of time that we are using big chunk of teacher talk.Ross: Great. Thanks for listening everyone.Tracy: Thank you, bye‑bye.Ross: Bye.

In our podcast, https://soul-inspired-leadership.com/episodes/ Janice Kobelsky defined “strength as high levels of energy, where we feel engaged and can create value.” We also briefly mentioned the fact that we face energy draining situations on a daily basis, often without being aware of it.   The things you do either give you energy or drain you. Choose wisely. Anonymous   Ross: “It is your choice how you react to things.” Apart from reacting wisely the idea here is to become increasingly aware how people, situations or thoughts drain our life energy on a continuous basis without us even realizing. Antoinette uses the metaphor of a bathtub, where apart from the tub drain there are small holes or cracks in the bottom of the tub, representing the thoughts, situations or people mentioned above. For example, the primary energy drain might be caused by a crisis at work, in that case, the energy drain is noticeable. The little holes are related to the things going on in the subconscious, slowly and unknowingly draining our energy day by day. To preserve energy these holes and drains they need to be sealed. For this, Antoinette recommends becoming present several times during the day to do a check-in. This is to assess whether what you are engaged in either depleting or revitalizing your energy.   Ross explains that it is essential to allow time during the day to “reflect on how you are going today? What are your challenges? How do I feel at this moment?” This helps to control what happens during the cause of the day, so you can be proactive, rather than constantly reactive to the stimuli around you.   This daily check-in balances, and saves, a good percentage of your internal energy.   The more you engage in things that you are good at, and like, the better you become, the more your energy will increase and vice versa.   A great leader can identify this dynamic in themselves and within individual employees. They then are in a position to do the needful to help them turn any downward spiraling energy around. Once the employee recognizes their energy drains and can “plug” them, their energy and motivation will increase. This change will be systemic, in that, the whole team becomes so much stronger as well.   Our SIL Leadership Balancing Cards help plug these leaks by emitting balancing, as well as strengthening frequencies into the energy field of a person to boost their strengths and capabilities. Focusing on their strengths will also automatically increase their internal energy. If you would like to find out quickly where your energy leaks are, contact us.   How do we identify these energy leaks? Being mindful and conscious of what is happening within you is the key. Jane Grafton, the guest in our next podcast, will share how mindfulness is an essential ability to gain insights and tap into one’s innate wisdom.  

We meet with Dave Weller to discuss the issues surrounding native and non-native English teachers such as attitudes of parents and teachers, the responsibilities of language schools and how to change opinions.Tracy: Hello, everyone.Ross Thorburn: Hi, folks.Tracy: Today, we've got our regular podcast guest...Both: Dave Weller.Ross: Hello, Dave.Dave Weller: Hello, everybody. I was trying not to say hurrah again.[laughter]Dave: Regular listeners will know what I mean.Ross: Dave's here this week to talk with us about a rather controversial issue...Tracy: Which is native English speaking‑teachers versus non‑native English‑speaking teachers.Ross: Today, we've got three questions. The first one is what's all the fuss about? Second...Tracy: What do the parents and the students think about it? The third one...Ross: What can managers and schools do about it?What’s the “Native” / “Non native Teacher” debate about?Ross: Guys, what's the debate about?Tracy: Based on my understanding, just schools, parents, teachers and students feel a different mode of English ‑‑ native or non‑native...They've got advantages and disadvantages. So it seems more people, native English‑speaking teachers and have a better model of English.Ross: As well as that, it seems like there's a bit of a tendency in the industry that native speakers who are teachers will tend to get paid more. Native speakers who are teachers will tend to be given more opportunities.Dave: Actually, I read about a study that looks at higher education institutions in the UK. They found over 70 percent of them made hiring decisions for staff based on whether they were native or non‑native speakers.Ross: That doesn't surprise me a lot. It's almost like our whole methodology and approach to teaching language, doing everything in the students' L2, is almost based around having native‑speaking teachers, right?Dave: Definitely. It goes really deep. Again, there's different levels of it. It's fine if it just stayed as an opinion, but once it turns into action, policy and systems, that's where discrimination kicks in. It becomes distinctly unfair and entrenched within our industry. Despite being what a lot of people think of as a very nice and liberal industry, it hides quite a lot of trade dark secrets.Ross: Interestingly, if you do any reading on this, you find that it becomes very difficult to define what a native speaker actually is. One thing that you can't deny is that the person grew up speaking English, but when you start to look at other criteria, they're very, very woolly.It tends to be things like they can be creative with language, they don't have a foreign accent, they're aware of the culture of the language. All these things, which clearly, it's possible...Dave: Of course. Non‑native speakers have that as well.Ross: Ultimately, you get to this point where, really, the only difference between the two is that one of them grew up speaking English, and one didn't. Which, if you're learning English from someone, is pretty irrelevant, isn't it, what language or what they did in their childhood. Who cares about that?Dave: Precisely. All you really care about is how good they are as a teacher, how well then can connect with you in the classroom, they can motivate you, and all the other things that go into making up a good teacher.This whole argument actually needs to be rephrased into clearer lines. Silvana Richardson mentioned in her IATEFL that we need a new word for non‑native speakers. For me, that word would just be English teachers.There's no point devolving that word into finer detail. You should actually go back up the chain. We're all English teachers. Just some of us have different skills and backgrounds than others.If we were to do that, it would solve a lot of these problems. When you talk about a teacher, you can, "OK, which language can they speak and at what level?" That way, you can say, "Well, in the old parlance, there's this native‑speaking teacher who can speak a little bit of the learner's L1, but not to their level."Then there's a native speaker who can't speak any. Then there's a non‑native speaker who is local to the area. Then there's a non‑native speaker that isn't local from the area."Ross: Part of it is linguistic determinism. The Sapir‑Whorf hypothesis, made famous by the recent movie ‑‑ "Arrival." This idea that because of the language that we use, that we have to describe the teachers as native and non‑native teachers or speakers, that's the thing that we end up focusing on.If we changed it, and say, we called them monolingual or bilingual teachers, then which of those would you have a preference for?Dave: I agree to a point, but this is why I might be against that. I can't say everything goes as you plan. Then in 20 years' time, you actually might get a reverse situation where there's prejudice against native speakers because of the bilingualism versus monolingualism.All I think you should do is revert back to the phrase teachers and then what skills does that teacher have.What do parents and the students think about “Native” / “Non- native Teachers”?Ross: Interesting in that the research I've done on this and the survey where I looked at parents, students, teachers, and sales and service staff, and asked every group, I had a bunch of different attributes in there.For example, attitudes, qualifications, personalities, relationship with students, being native speakers, what people look like, their nationality, and their ability to speak the student's L1.The number one thing was definitely not being a native speaker. That ranked about number three or number four in people's preference. The native or non‑native speaker is...people use that as a proxy.It's something that if you don't know anything about the industry, then you can relate to that very, very easily, but if you're a parent and you don't know anything about language learning, you're not going to know what qualifications the teachers should have.It's very difficult to see what the teachers' attitudes are or their personalities, if any, or of those things. It is quite simple to check. Is this person a native speaker or not?Dave: I find it fascinating. To go back to non‑native speakerism for a second, I was reading some of Adrian Holliday's work. He said that it started out as almost a marketing ploy from various aid agencies back in the '60s to propagate the idea that native speakers were the best model.In which case, that obviously links up to the idea that Silvana Richardson said in her plenary that we can change the perception in the industry. All it takes is a little time.With research that backs this up ‑‑ research coming out that actually says that it's not just OK, but beneficial to use L1 in the classroom ‑‑ you put those things together, then this is the way forward to actually eradicate bias in our industry.Ross: Let me play you that quote from Silvana now.Silvana Richardson: Employers always have choices. Collusion with inequality and prejudice is a choice. Discrimination is a choice. As Rajagopalan says, "In our neoliberal world, who will dare challenge what the market dictates?"The answer to this is, just because the market is demanding certain things, it does not mean that the market itself cannot be made to perceive things differently.Ross: Do you think that's true? Is that realistic though, that the market can be made to perceive...Dave: Of course, it is. Yeah, definitely. If you look on an individual on a mass scale, how many times have we changed our minds over the course of our professional development over the last 10, 15 years?Precisely, it's the same thing with the industry. Industries change, ideas change, views change. It happens usually, I would argue, from the ground up rather than direct from above, especially in an industry such as ours which is quite fragmented and has no overarching body to dictate the standards.Tracy: I still think there is a huge market, because you just look at the education companies doing online or offline. The business...they create the scenario, and having native English teachers is the better choice.Ross: In that case, do you think it's an easier or difficult or a long or short task to change the way that Chinese parents and students see local teachers?Tracy: It's going to be a long way. I have to say all the non‑native teachers need to work really hard, because if you constantly made the mistakes, and you constantly misspell the word, and you constantly use the utterances or expressions that people don't normally use, and use those language to teach your students, there is a problem.Ross: It's so unfair, because I see a lot of really bad native‑speaking teachers [laughs] who don't get picked up on making teaching mistakes or methodological mistakes.Dave: Or even language mistakes of teaching language which is highly improbable, possible but doesn't often get used. They end up teaching...It's, maybe, not going technically wrong, but you'll hear people teaching language that never gets used.Ross: They're from one particular part of the Deep South in America and they use a phrase that only them and their family and the people in that village use and are like, "I've never heard it before."I don't see them getting picked up on those mistakes. They tend to get a free pass because they're a native speaker. That's really unfair.Tracy: A lot of teachers or parents always say, "Oh, I want my student or my child to speak Standard English," or "All the students should learn Standard English."Dave: There's no such thing anymore, is there?Ross: I don't think so. Is that a cultural concept that exists in China? There is a standard Chinese, but there's no Standard English.Dave: Let's play devil's advocate just for a second. I can clearly understand what they mean though. Even though we're looking at it from a technician's point of view, we're looking at it from a point of view of professionals in the industry. What parents mean...it's almost like the shadows on Plato's cave, to take it deep for a second.The concept of a horse, despite all horses can look slightly different...Again, they're using that term as a proxy of an English that will be understood around the world. No matter where they go, it'll be effortless to be able to communicate with other English‑speaking teachers and not be hindered in any way through pronunciation or grammar or phrase. That's shorthand for what they're trying to say.Ross: Indeed, but is it not also the case that a very, very small percentage of learners will learn English or an accent or something to the point where they're at that level of, "Oh, I want to sound English" or "I want to sound American," but, really, for most of the students I've taught, even after years, they sound Chinese, because...Dave: Maybe your students, Ross.[laughter]Dave: Sorry, that's such a flippant answer. No, I completely agree with your point. In fact, I'd even add to that and say, it's not about increasing their level. It's about teaching the skills to grade their language if they do encounter another non‑native speaker who has trouble understanding their accent, maybe because they're from a quite different culture. Again, you're arguing against a perception and a belief.What can managers and schools do about “Native” / Non-native Teacher” discriminationRoss: Can we talk for a minute about language schools and, maybe, what language schools can do about that? I've got another Silvana quote for you. Do you mind if I play this briefly?Dave: Please do.Silvana: This is part of the California/Nevada's position paper opposing discrimination against non‑native English speaking teachers. It says, "Teaching job announcements that indicate a preference or requirement for a native speaker of English trivialize the professional development teachers have received and teaching experience they have already acquired.Such announcements are also discriminatory and ultimately harm all teachers ‑‑ native or not ‑‑ by devaluing teacher education, professionalism, and experience.Ross: To what extent do you guys agree or disagree with that?Dave: 100 percent. Again, I really speak with authority from my background, which is as a native speaker. Again, it does trivialize my experience and the amount of work I've put in over the last 15 years of professional development, studying...Ross: Getting qualifications and things...Dave: Precisely. The extra work I've put in ‑‑ thousands of hours ‑‑ and then to be reduced to being called, "He's a native speaker. He'll do."Ross: It still happens so often. Tracy, you had something like that a few weeks ago over organizing a teacher training thing here. Again, you've obviously got your diploma, you're studying your MA, you've been a tutor and a course director on accredited courses.The people running the course said, "Oh, can you make sure there's a native speaker or foreigner for at least half the course?"Dave: Who's just finished a 40‑hour online course, perhaps.Ross: Or maybe not even that. Isn't it fascinating that that still persists?Tracy: They even didn't care about what qualifications or experience they have. Also interesting, the person from the organization even asked me, "Can you tell me more about this trainer?"I said, "OK. Maybe I can ask this person to send the CV, send the training, teaching experience." She said, "We really don't care about it. Just tell me his age, which country he's from, and also if he's white or black."Ross: What about on the flip side for a minute then, Dave? As someone who used to be a director of studies before in a school where you had to make hiring decisions, where's this balance? Were you ever in some tough situations there?Dave: [laughs] Yes.Ross: How did that work out then?Dave: The thing is, as a manager ‑‑ anyone who's been a manager, I'm sure, can relate to this ‑‑ you have to pick and choose your battles. That was the one that I'll actually go to bat for.If you had several candidates and various degrees of discrimination in different things as one that Tracy mentioned earlier about someone's skin color, also about non‑native speaking teachers, you just go and not actually ask if these persons' qualified, they're capable, they've gone through the interview process, and that they would be a good fit for this team, they'd be a good fit for this country, and they'd be a great fit for our school.Then you'd put your foot down. You'd have an argument, almost, with the culture of the school. If you won ‑‑ sometimes you did, sometimes you didn't ‑‑ often, unfortunately, it depended on how badly the school needed teachers, and how many classes waiting you had, how many students waiting to start class.Unfortunately, it was usually the deciding factor. Once the teacher arrived, whereas the students after a few lessons, would be delighted with the experienced teacher, the parents would turn and become delighted and insist on having that teacher as a future teacher for their children.What’s does the future hold for “Non-native English teachers”?Dave: It's always sad that we actually have to do this, or that it's something that we do have to get passionate about. Do spread the word on.I'm very optimistic about it. I like to think there are enough people out there that people will go back, spread the word, and take small actions. There will be this groundswell of people that do this.Ross: All right, Dave, thanks very much for coming on. It was a pleasure talking to you again.Dave: It's a pleasure to be here, as always. Thank you.[background music]Tracy: Thanks, Dave. Bye, everybody.Ross: Bye.Tracy: For more podcasts, videos, and blogs, visit our website...Both: Www.tefltraininginstitute.com.Ross: If you've got a question or a topic you'd like us to discuss, leave us a comment...Tracy: If you want to keep up to date with our latest content, add us on WeChat @tefltraininginstitute.Ross: If you enjoyed our podcast, please rate us on iTunes.

This episode we look into the dark secret of the TEFL industry - teacher turnover. If you’re a manager, how many of these teacher turnover blunders are being made in your school?Tracy Yu: Welcome to the "TEFL Training Institute" podcast, the bite‑sized TEFL podcast for teachers, trainers and managers.Ross Thorburn: Tracy, how long have you worked in the same company for?Tracy: Almost 10 years. A long time.Ross: You must have renewed your contract a whole bunch of times then, have you?Tracy: Yeah.Ross: Can you tell me some of the reasons why you decided to stay?Tracy: I remember clearly the first time I renewed. I was really, really sure that I enjoyed the job teaching. I also enjoyed working with my colleagues and I liked the work environment. I listed the pros and cons and I think the schedule is not great but...Tracy: ...compared to some other factors, I think, yeah, I definitely want to stay.Ross: What about more recently?Tracy: For last two times, when I renewed contract, it's mainly because there were new challenges and the position has been changed. I can say got promoted or doing different role.Ross: When I do training with managers and I usually ask them, "What's the number one thing that motivates teachers?" Can you guess what they say?Tracy: Let me guess. I will say money...Ross: Yeah.Tracy: ...is one of them?Ross: Some people always say money and yet, again, there, none of the things that you said really were related to money. It was career development, it was your peers, it was enjoying teaching, all those different things.Tracy: I won't deny, salary increase would definitely going to be one reason why people, they are staying or they're changing jobs, but I don't think from my experience, that was the main reason why I did that.Ross: Today, we're going to look at teacher motivation and teacher retention and we've got three questions.Tracy: The first one, what are the common mistakes for teacher retention?Ross: What can managers and organizations do to retain teachers? Finally...Tracy: Why it's important for managers and organizations to keep teachers and to motivate them?What Are The Common Mistakes For Teacher Retention?Ross: Tracy, what do you think of some of the maybe common mistakes that managers and organizations make?Tracy: You mentioned earlier about money?Ross: Yeah.Tracy: I would say most people just assume, OK, no salary increase and compared to other organizations in this field, and the salary is not very competitive, that's why people leave because people live in the real world. They want to get more money, have a better living standard.Ross: Money is important, right?Tracy: Yeah. No one [laughs] is going to say no.[laughter]Tracy: Why do the managers still believe that's the main reason or the number one reason why people stay?Ross: Or why people leave? I think it's just a very 19th century, like a Victorian, very simple way of looking at motivation. A very capitalist way of looking at it. If you want people to do something, offer them money and they'll do it. I think the reason that doesn't work for teachers is because if you were someone that was really, really motivated by money, you wouldn't have become a teacher.Tracy: That's true. That's not the really wealthy industry, to be honest.[crosstalk]Ross: ...or you'd become a lawyer or you'd try to become a doctor, or you'd have become a sales person, but you wouldn't have moved to Prague and got a teaching job. At least for me, when I moved to China, I took a pay cut of about...I was getting paid, I think, a quarter or a fifth of what I getting paid before in the UK.That is not to say money is not important to me, but it's obviously not the main driving reason behind what I'm doing. Otherwise, I wouldn't take a 70 percent pay cut for a new job. I was sure that there was other factors that are important.Tracy: I think that will lead to the next one that I've been thinking about because a lot of time, the managers they believe what they believe. They never ask the teacher, "Is this the reason why you stay or is why the reason you leave?"Ross: There's a quote in the Bible, I think, isn't there? It's like, "Do unto others as you would have do unto you." Have you heard this before?Tracy: Yeah, I think so.[crosstalk]Tracy: It doesn't work...Ross: This is like treat other people the way you want to be treated.There's a quote from George Bernard Shaw who says, "Do not do unto others as they expect they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same." Obviously, different people are motivated by different things, but I think this is assumption that what motivates me must be the same as what motivates you.The big problem in organizations is that senior managers do get a high salary and probably are quite motivated by money. They may assume, "Oh, that must be the same for teachers," but it's not.Tracy: Yeah. That's a good point. A lot of managers of organizations don't really listen to teachers and what they really need and what motivates them because I think...We talk about sit down with teachers at different time, maybe before the probation or other probation six months or one year or different year before contract.You just maybe have a regular meeting or conversation with your teacher and just find out what's going on with them and what they really need.Ross: I think listening is the key thing there.Tracy: Exactly.Ross: If you're doing a review with someone after however long, that the main person speaking in the review to be the employee not the managers so you can find out more about what interests them, what their goals are, why they're doing the job. If you don't know those things, how can you expect to motivate someone?Tracy: A lot of teacher I talk to, at least, some teachers say, "Do you really think that I'm doing this job for money? No, because I want to really help people and to see my students develop, to learn something. I want to see their happy face at the end of the class." Don't assume people do or stay this job just because of money.What can managers and organizations do to retain teachers?Tracy: You've been a manager for a few years. What are the secrets for you as a manager to keep your staff?Ross: If you care for your staff and you say, "Oh, I know that you're going to leave one day. What I want to do in the next year, we want to give you some of the skills and things that are going to help you get to the next position, either on this company or outside this company."Say, you've told me you want to run your own center, school, or your own CertTESOL school, then great. "Great. OK, let's work on having a plan for you over the next year so that you can get skills, so that you'll be able to run your own school in a year's time, or two years' time." You're much more likely to stay with me for those two years.I think it's counter‑intuitive for people because I think people think, "Oh, I don't want to encourage my staff to leave." I think you want to encourage your staff to achieve their goals and those goals will probably usually be outside the company.For me, that secret is like listening to them, finding out what is it they want to achieve in the future, and then help them to make sure they get the skills in their current job that'll help them get there in the future. Your aim isn't to keep people until they're 65.Tracy: Yeah.[laughter]Ross: Your aim is to keep people as if keeping them for one year, keeping them for three years or four years.Tracy: That's an interesting point, though, because even for employee or for teachers and they stay longer and then automatically, we believe, "OK, the reason why I stay another year because I want to have a promotion." Of course, that's fine, but after what you mentioned, and then you think about, "OK, I'm going stay another year or two. What can I get out of it?"Ross: Yeah, exactly. That's why you want to talk to people about. What do you want to get out of staying here for another year and having that conversation with people?Tracy: That's my point. Just accept the position, the title, and the real skills and the competencies and knowledge and all that kinds of stuff, and people need to consider more. You know what I mean?Ross: I think that's something that managers need to help people to realize. For a lot of people, it's like, "Oh, I'm going to be standing up in front of a room of 15 kids again for a year teaching them ABC."[laughs] There's a lot more in a way of skills that you can get out of that that can help you to get a better job or something when you leave, or you can study a qualification or something that's going to help you get a different job when you leave.It's helping people realize what are the skills that you need for the future and then how can we make sure that you get those skills in your current position.Tracy: Yeah. In another word, I think, just to try to let them see their value in this team work, in this company...[crosstalk]Ross: It's just part, I think of recognizing people. I think it's about recognizing the right things. It's not about saying, "Well, well done. You got the most student retention, or you got the highest demonstration class conversion," or, "Well done. You came to work on time every day for the last month." It's about praising people for things that they want to be praised for.Tracy: Can I ask you here? I'm just confused that should we ask them or do you want me?Ross: You don't need to ask people like, "What do you want to be praised for exactly?" You can find out what people think that they're good at doing, and I think praising people for, "You made the most money for our company every month."That's great if it's a sales person because that is the role of a sales person, it's to make money. If it's a teacher and you praise them for making money, then you're not going to keep people who are very suited for the teaching profession.That all comes down to like you were saying at the beginning, getting to know people's motivation, understand...[crosstalk]Ross: ...and then sitting down with someone on the first day in the new job and say, "Why are you here? What do you want to get out of this?"Tracy: What if the teacher says, "I just want to come here to travel"?Ross: That's fine.Tracy: How can you help them?Ross: That was what I wanted to do in the beginning.Tracy: How can you do that to relate to their retention? Because you know they're going to leave. "I don't care..."Ross: I didn't leave. I came here to travel and I'm still in the same country, in the same organization 10 years later. People's motivations change and we know, again, from research that the majority of what's called Self‑initiated Expats, SIEs, so people who make the decision themselves to go abroad.One of the most common reasons, and the most common reason for language schools is, that they want to travel. Of course, give those people opportunities to do that but they might enjoy the job as I did. Like I really, really enjoyed teaching and as time has gone by, my motivations for staying in this profession, this industry have changed.Why it's important for managers and organizations to keep teachers and to motivate them?Tracy: We talked a lot about the common mistakes and how we motivate and keep teachers. Why do we do that? Why do we care about doing it?Ross: The main, I think, reason for big organizations is just it's very, very expensive to recruit teachers from abroad. You could save so much money by just keeping teachers in the same position for longer.That's the big picture. I think if it comes down to the small picture about teachers and students, then as a teacher, the most important thing you can do is understand and get to know your students.Tracy: Yeah, that's the common feedback that I heard when I met some students in the center and just say, "Oh, OK. After my six months alternative leave, I came back and there's no teacher in this school. I really know. They all left." I think that's a really, really bad effect on the students. It's definitely bad for the students.Ross: It's not necessarily saying that every teacher who's been teaching for five years is better than every teacher who's been teaching for six months. I think it's pretty much always true that you're a better teacher after five years than you were after one year. I definitely was.Tracy: Another thing is, similar to recruitment, is training, because we're doing training. [laughs] You know how much time and efforts we spend with the teachers and then they leave.That's the most frustrating thing for a trainer, at least for me. I have the teachers, I spend all the time, I'll be one or two weeks with them, and then you'll just see in six months or a year and they just left. They can do a really good job but...you know what I mean, and have to train new people again, again, again, and again.Ross: Which is really, really costly for organizations, right?Tracy: Yeah, exactly because they have to pay us to do training and stuff.Ross: This is something that's becoming more and more common not just in education but everywhere. If you look at my parents, they pretty much stayed in the same jobs for about 30‑something years. For your parents, how long did they work in the same companies for?Tracy: Their whole life, yeah.Ross: Yeah.Tracy: Definitely. More than 30 years.Ross: Right. I think now, things are changing a lot faster and I think the world average according to LinkedIn is only something like four years that people stay in the same company.Tracy: Of course, nowadays, we don't expect people to stay in the same company, same position 5, 10 years because that's unrealistic. Again, don't want to spend a lot of time and money, keep hiring new people and training them.Wrap UpTracy: Ross, you just started a new job. If you have a chance to tell your manager three things that can motivate you, what they are going to be?Ross: The team I work with is really important in my last job. I really loved all the people that I had worked with and that kept me there for quite a long time.As a manager, having control over who you hire is really, really important. Things like your work schedule and your work‑life balance is also super important especially nowadays. That's something that research has shown as important for every generation.For me, working overtime isn't a problem occasionally, but I know of some people and friends who've had to work six days a week and 12 hours a day every day for two years. Those people obviously quit.Making sure there's some work‑life balance. Professional growth and development, it might not be getting like doing tons of training courses or anything, but it might just be the opportunity to research and present at conferences.Tracy: That's very good advice.Ross: I hope she's listening.Tracy: [laughs] Good luck. All right. Bye, everyone.