Podcasts about matt how

Alexander - I was watching a debate about baptism. Do churches charge for baptisms? Maria Teresa - How do I find out if the Catholic Church is in communion with the Pope? Mark - follow up - sister's confession-when the Holy Spirit is truly working through you - you don't mention it Paul - Email - Our Sunday bulletin included a quote from Pope Leo 14 that was fake. Joseph - If Catholics are focused on sacraments and not gifts, how to we get those gifts? Val - does it makes difference if the baptism is private as opposed to public with the congregation? Matt - How can I tell if I am being lustful in my relationship with girlfriend? Patrick mentions book - A Thousand Frightening Fantasies Agnes - Jesus said that the Father is greater than He. I thought they were all equal?

#355 In part two of a four-part series, Justin Williams and guest Matt Radd from eBusiness Institute delve into advanced tactics for buying, renovating, and either flipping or holding websites for profit. (Original Air Date - 3/11/24) What we discuss with Matt: + How to Buy Websites from Private Sellers + Success Story: Annette's Journey in Website Flipping + The Importance of Knowledge and Expertise in Website Flipping + Finding the Diamonds in the Rough: Unseen Website Deals + Understanding the Technical Aspects of Website Flipping + The Art of Finding and Contacting Potential Website Sellers + The Power of Niche Knowledge in Website Flipping + The Importance of Traffic in Website Valuation + Monetizing Websites: Ad Networks and Affiliate Marketing + The Potential of Offering Courses on Websites Links and resources from this episode: FREE Buy Websites Masterclass Google Analytics Semrush Ahrefs Similar web Thank you, Matt! A BIG Thank you to Matt and Liz Raad for sponsoring today's episode! To connect with Matt on LinkedIn, click here! For more information go to MillionaireUniversity.com To get access to our FREE Business Training course go to MillionaireUniversity.com/training. And follow us on: Instagram Facebook Tik Tok Youtube Twitter To get exclusive offers mentioned in this episode and to support the show, visit millionaireuniversity.com/sponsors. Want to hear from more incredible entrepreneurs? Check out all of our interviews here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Patrick tackles the tough issue of conscience versus preference in observing Church laws. He explores a real-life example of someone not attending mass due to grieving, and clarifies that preference is not the same as a well-formed conscience. He also debunks the notion that personal preference, such as attending only the traditional Latin mass, excuses one from Sunday obligations. The takeaway? As Catholics, it's paramount to properly form our consciences and adhere to Church obligations, even when it's challenging.   Joanne - I thought you were crazy the first time I listened to you but now I listen to you all the time and this show is a blessing. (00:37) Susan - I was disappointed at Culvers for having a 'they, them' name tag. I felt like I was being scolded. (06:54) Audio: “I'm a nice guy” gets a free water at Chick Fil A and harasses an employee and it costs him everything Bob - Sometimes doing the right thing is telling people that they are true to who they say they are. (17:07) Billy (email) – Does Relevant Radio have any materials I could leave in a hotel? Matt - How culpable are you if you appeal to conscience to violate Church law? I know two people who are justifying not going to Mass. (28:18) Dominic - I just turned 20 and had fallen into the radical traditionalist group of hating the Novus Ordo. I found it was making me more hateful and closed off. (41:31) Tony - What is the Catholic Churches teaching on pre-destination and free will? (47:30)

In this week's episode, I tackle your questions regarding image, sex, and dating! Whether you are wondering what your partner desires in bed or you are looking for ways to handle rejection - this episode is full of valuable advice and insights.  Make sure to rate and review if you love the podcast and reach out and tell us your thoughts about the Q&A over on Instagram @celestemooreimage! In this week's episode we discuss: [01:30] Question 1: (Dan) - How important is confidence and how do I build it? [03:35] Question 2: (Ron) - What are the signs that a date is going well? [05:08] Question 3: (Josh) - How can I understand what my partner wants in bed? [07:15] Question 4: (John) - What are effective ways to handle rejection? [09:03] Question 5: (Jack) - How can technology enhance my dating life? [11:11] Question 6: (Jim) - What are some myths around masculinity?  [13:52] Question 7: (Matt) - How can I maintain a healthy relationship during stressful times? [16:03] Question 8: (Noah) - How to keep the spark alive in a long-term relationship?

How to Flip Websites with Matt Raad pt. 2 In part two of a four-part series, Justin Williams and guest Matt Radd from eBusiness Institute delve into advanced tactics for buying, renovating, and either flipping or holding websites for profit. What we discuss with Matt: + How to Buy Websites from Private Sellers + Success Story: Annette's Journey in Website Flipping + The Importance of Knowledge and Expertise in Website Flipping + Finding the Diamonds in the Rough: Unseen Website Deals + Understanding the Technical Aspects of Website Flipping + The Art of Finding and Contacting Potential Website Sellers + The Power of Niche Knowledge in Website Flipping + The Importance of Traffic in Website Valuation + Monetizing Websites: Ad Networks and Affiliate Marketing + The Potential of Offering Courses on Websites Resources from This Episode: FREE Buy Websites Masterclass Google Analytics Semrush Ahrefs Similar web Sign up for our FREE Business Course - Understand the 7 Phases of A business, so you know where you are now and where you need to go next! Go to https://www.millionaireuniversity.com/training. Thank you, Matt Raad! To connect with Matt on LinkedIn, click here! If you enjoyed this episode with Matt, let us know by clicking on any of the links below to send him a quick shout-out: Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, TikTok and LinkedIn. We'd love to hear from you! If you want us to answer your business questions on an upcoming episode, drop us a line at support@millioinaireuniversity.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Special Guest Host Ken Hensley Madeleine - My husband doesn't understand that the Eucharist is real. What should I do or tell my husband to convince him that the Eucharist is real? He did say that he would go along with Catholic stuff for the sake of his children but never convert. Hazel - How to I respond to my son who went to the Cathedral of Seville? He thinks that people were mistreated in order to make the Church (financial and otherwise). Elaine - I didn't belong to a Church, but the Holy Spirit came over me one day and I went to the Catholic Church (Holy Name Cathedral). I started RCIA! Matt - How do protestants view the Catholic Church? What do they think when we say “one holy Catholic and apostolic church?” Leonard - Can you discuss the simple words “do this” that Christ said at the Last Supper? Gordon - I believe that Paris became a great city because of Notre Dame. This was an art museum and it was the city center.

Today we delve into the fascinating world of experiential marketing strategies across diverse sectors—agencies, associations, and brands.In this captivating discussion, we are joined by Nancy Touhill, the Global Head of Event Marketing at LexisNexis Risk Solutions. Nancy brings a wealth of experience to the table, having worked across multiple domains throughout her career. From her agency roots to her association involvement, and now spearheading event marketing for a brand, she offers an invaluable perspective.Gain unique insights into how these entities approach event marketing, discover the key differentiators, and unlock the secrets to success in this dynamic industry.What she discussed with Matt:- How her career path shaped her ability to thrive in the fast-paced event marketing industry- The crucial relationship between events, marketing and sales- Evaluating strategy on a case-by-case basis- Key takeaways from her previous roles- And much more!Tune in to this episode of “Event Marketing: Redefined” that's sure to inspire and enlighten!Connect with Nancy:On her LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancy-touhill-2a419831/ Connect with Me:On my LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-kleinrock-9613b22b/On my Company: https://rockwayexhibits.com/

Patrick answers listener questions about how to guide non-Catholic's to the Church, how do we know that Jesus instituted seven sacraments, and how can I help my teenager who is rebelling against the family? Hamtramck council bans LGBTQ flags from city property after months of intense debate Congressman Crenshaw TX grills a smug witness who can't show any evidence that transgender surgeries are beneficial for children Jack - My friend who is Methodist is looking to find a new church. How can I help her look at the Catholic Church as an option? Any books? Denise - I have not seen a pride flag anywhere near I live. Ireland's descent into authoritarianism continues. Patrick shares audio of Irish Green Party Senator Pauline O'Reilly weaponising the concept of “safety” to justify censorship and other encroachments on freedom of speech. Patrick shares audio of Sen. Scott Wilk warns parents to flee his own state. “In the past when we've had these discussions and I've seen parental rights atrophied—I've encouraged people to keep fighting—I've changed my mind on that. If you love your children, you need to flee California.” Matt - How do we know that Jesus instituted 7 sacraments? Sarah - My daughter is rebelling against me. She's 15-years-old and having sex with a boy from school who sneaks into our house. What should I do?

Patrick answers listener questions about the Holy Land, was there a transgender saint, and does he wear the same t-shirt every day? Lisa – I'm going to the Holy Land. What can I do and see while I'm there to have the most “Holy” experience? Alexis – Was there a transgender saint? Sarah - The Body and the Blood of Christ:  If we take literally what Jesus said, why is the “drink this” optional? Patrick got caught wearing the same shirt! Ken - It's been 55 years since my last confession and Relevant Radio has encouraged me to come back to the Church.  I'm against abortion, but I'm fine with contraception. Is that a mortal sin to have this stance and should I even bother with confession? Matt - How we go about teaching our children all scriptural evidence, teachings of the fathers, dogmas and doctrines, etc., so they don't leave the faith? I've learned more from this show then years of going to Catholic school. Carmen - Her son stopped believing in God. He said he has encountered evil twice. How can I get evil out of my son?

Matt Jennings is the owner and co-founder of TheLIFTGym in Point Pleasant, New Jersey. Matt is an expert in strength training for the adult population, clocking over 30 years of experience in the fitness industry. He is the Founder of The Adult Strength and Conditioning Association and an Adult Strength and Conditioning Specialist. Matt and his wife, Kathy, partnered up with Coach Krysta and The Fitness FYX team to host an 8-week nutrition challenge inside of their gym this past January. In this episode, Matt and Krysta discuss the importance of aligning your nutrition and training program, and what people really mean when they say, "I want to get toned." This episode is for you if you want to know exactly how to design your training with that goal in mind. Matt and Krysta also discuss: The benefits of small group training and the benefits of personalizing movements to clients' distinct goals in that small group setting The term 'functional fitness' -- and what it actually means, and how that definition has changed over the years for Matt How selling his first gym and briefly stepping away from the fitness industry led Matt to realize his passion for helping others—specifically when it comes to their health and wellness The importance of using measurable health markers, like muscle mass and body fat percentage from the inBody scan, to better quantify someone's goals Make Your Training And Nutrition Fun All Summer Long... Even If You Can't Stand The Gym And Won't Give Up Your Margaritas How to strength train--WITHOUT getting hurt The foolproof, easy metric you can use right now to stop eating too much food The never-before-told secret to good-tasting, healthy food (spices, spices, SPICES!) Click the link above to reserve your spot and forward it to a friend before they fill up. The event kicks off at TheLIFT at 10:30am on Sunday, May 7th. Questions? Contact Coach Krysta: @thekrystahuber @thefyx.officialpod @thefitnessfyx Follow TheLIFT Gym: @the_lift_gym --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/thekrystahuber/message

Patrick comments on not paying your adult children's bills. Once they turn 18, they are responsible for themselves Katrina - We have a daughter in college and we are paying for all her things. At what point in college should we stop paying her way since she is not working? Anonymous – I've seen, three times, a priest with a cell phone in the confessional. Is this allowed? Patrick talks about the dangers of cell phones and technology Jay - Do you have suggestions on Catholic education for my kids? Dan - Does the church allow openly gay married couples to join the parish? Could a gay couple be refused communion? Matt - How does “admonish the sinner” work with what Jesus said about the wooden beam in our eye? What does Jesus' parable mean? Horacio - Is it okay to kneel during the Rosary since that is a posture of adoration?

Patrick answers listener questions about vows of obedience, how would Joseph divorcing Mary protect her, how can we tell when Jesus is speaking literally or metaphorically, is Frank Pavone still a deacon, and is it okay to distance yourself from abusive family members Father John - What do you think the difference is between a vow of obedience by religious order priest and a promise of obedience by a diocesan priest? Scott - How would Joseph divorcing Mary protect her? Juliet - Why did the prophet say His name would be Emanuel but we call him Jesus? Matt - How do you know when Jesus is speaking literally or metaphorically? Rhianna - My husband's family is verbally abusive. Is it okay for me to distance myself from them? Mike - Is Frank Pavone still a deacon? Sylvia - A friend left the Catholic Church for the Apostolic Pentecostal religion. How can I bring them back? Maria – Where does a baby go if they died unbaptized?

Jake and Michael discuss all the latest Laravel releases, tutorials, and happenings in the community.This episode is sponsored by Honeybadger - combining error monitoring, uptime monitoring and check-in monitoring into a single, easy to use platform and making you a DevOps hero. (03:10) - Laravel 9.43 released (07:45) - A look at what's coming to Laravel 10 (13:15) - PHP 8.2 is released with read-only classes, new standalone types, trait constants, and more (21:26) - PhpStorm 2022.3 is released with a new UI, PHP 8.2 support, and more (22:49) - Laravel holiday giveaway (24:50) - Neovim as a PHP and JavaScript IDE (26:18) - Jake's storytime (you can skip this) (27:26) - Sponsor: Honeybadger (28:51) - Eloquent API calls (29:56) - Supercharging your artisan commands with Termwind (30:55) - Steve vs Matt - How two developers approach the same problem What's new in PHP 8.2

In the fourth episode of season 10 of the Propcast, host Louisa Dickins is joined by Sally Jones, Head of Strategy, Digital and Technology at British Land and Matt Webster, Head of Environmental Sustainability at British Land. They share British Land's strategy for sustainable developments and how they are going to achieve net zero by 2030. Sally shares how her role at British Land has changed since 2010 and shifted her focus towards strategy and technology. Matt talks about how their most recent sustainable projects, 100 Liverpool Street and Canada Water, have been designed to reduce both operational and embodied carbon in both the development and the running of the buildings. Sally and Matt discuss the advancement of technologies and successful utilisation of data and what this means for the future of sustainable real estate. Resources: LMRE Global Recruitment and Search Consultancy LMRE YouTube Interviews 100 Liverpool Street Canada Water Companies Mentioned: Equiem Facilio  Cadbury Arup Shout Outs: Gabrielle McMillan Key Insights From This Episode:   I think the next few years will be challenging, but the more business that successfully deliver their strategies, the closer we will be to net zero - Louisa Technology is changing the shape of the property industry - Sally I'm confident as a sector that we've got the technologies, skill sets and the ambition to play our part in this, to come together and deliver - Matt The digitalisation of real estate will have a significant part to play in the decarbonisation of the built environment - Matt We have to figure out a cheaper way of delivering digital transformation, especially with the rising energy costs - Sally   About Our Guests: Sally Jones, Head of Strategy, Digital and Technology: Sally joined British Land in February 2010 as Head of Investor Relations and took responsibility for Strategy alongside Investor Relations in January 2015. In May 2016, she was appointed Head of Strategy and Investments. Subsequently, she has expanded her role to include data and insights and the Group's Smart technology initiatives. She joined the Executive Committee in 2015. Sally is also a Non-executive Director of Equiem, the leading tenant experience digital platform provider.   Previous Experience: Before joining British Land Sally worked at Cadbury Schweppes where she held a variety of roles over ten years including Director of Investor Relations, Director of Communications and Finance Director Group Sales and Marketing. Prior to that she worked in the City.   Matt Webster, Head of Environmental Sustainability   As Head of Environmental Sustainability, Matt leads the environmental performance of British Land's standing portfolio and development pipeline, responsible for implementing our pathway to net zero carbon by 2030 and wider environmental sustainability agenda. Matt works across the business to ensure our assets are designed, built and operated to the highest environmental standards. Matt led British Land to a 55% reduction in its operational energy intensity achieved in 2019. He has held various roles across the business, including establishing our approach to wellbeing and most recently developing and implementing our approach to smart buildings and digital placemaking. Recent development projects include the delivery of British Land's first net zero development at 100 Liverpool Street and leading sustainability at Canada Water - a 53 acre mixed use regeneration project. Prior to joining British Land, Matt held various sustainability consulting and banking roles. Matt has a Master's degree from Forum for the Future.   About British Land:Our portfolio of high quality UK commercial property is focused on London Campuses and Retail & Fulfilment assets throughout the UK. We own or manage a portfolio valued at £14.3bn (British Land share: £10.5bn) as at 31 March 2022 making us one of Europe's largest listed real estate investment companies.    We create Places People Prefer, delivering the best, most sustainable places for our customers and communities. Our strategy is to leverage our best in class platform and proven expertise in development, repositioning and active management, investing behind two key themes: Campuses and Retail & Fulfilment.    Our three Campuses at Broadgate, Paddington Central and Regent's Place are dynamic neighbourhoods, attracting growth customers and sectors, and offering some of the best connected, highest quality and most sustainable space in London. We are delivering our fourth Campus at Canada Water, where we have planning consent to deliver 5m sq ft of residential, commercial, retail and community space over 53 acres. Our Campuses account for 67% of our portfolio.    Retail & Fulfilment accounts for 33% of the portfolio and is focused on retail parks which are aligned to the growth of convenience, online and last mile fulfilment. We are complementing this with urban logistics primarily in London, focused on development-led opportunities.    Sustainability is embedded throughout our business. In 2020, we set out our sustainability strategy which focuses on two time-critical areas where British Land can create the most benefit: making our whole portfolio net zero carbon by 2030, and partnering to grow social value and wellbeing in the communities where we operate.    Further details can be found on the British Land website at www.britishland.com   About Our Host Louisa Dickins Louisa is the co-founder of LMRE, which has rapidly become the market leading global PropTech recruitment platform and search consultancy with operations across North America, United Kingdom, Europe and Asia-Pacific. To promote the industry she is so passionate about, Louisa set up the Global podcast ‘The Propcast' where she hosts and invites guests from the built environment space to join her in conversation about innovation. About LMRE LMRE is globally recognised for leading the way in Real Estate Tech & Innovation talent management. From the outset our vision was to become a global provider of the very best strategic talent to the most innovative organisations in PropTech, ConTech, Smart Buildings, ESG, Sustainability and Strategic Consulting. At LMRE we are fully committed at all times to exceed the expectations of our candidates and clients by providing the very best advice and by unlocking exclusive opportunities across our global network in the UK, Europe, North America and Asia-Pacific.   Timestamps: [2:10] Sally: How did you get into your strategy, technology and digital role?  It has been so fascinating to be able to combine strategy with all things digital and technology and I am now in charge of building tech, insights and the whole technology stack. My interest in technology started when I realised how technology was changing the shape of the property industry. [3:50] Matt: Could you tell us what your role at British Land entails? I have been at British Land for a number of years now and worked in different sections around the business, but always with an angle on sustainability. I was retained to deliver the 55% energy target and we were very proud to be able to deliver that over a 10 year period from 2009 to 2019. We were early adopters of the idea that it was our responsibility to collaborate with customers to work towards understanding our carbon footprint and start utilising data and technologies. [5:35] Sally: Could you elaborate on your digital strategy? We started working on it in 2015 and created a smart team after realising that digitalising buildings was going to become a big thing. We wanted to create a strategy with a very focused approach on improving people's experience of our real estate, building greater understanding through data and driving greater efficiency. [6:58] Matt: How does the sustainability strategy fit into the digital strategy? Our latest strategy runs from 2019 to 2030 and is balanced between environmental and social issues. Our target is to reach net zero carbon by 2030, as an operator and developer of space our two big sources of carbon are embodied from the development of our assets and operational which is related to the energy from running our assets. We are aiming for a 50% reduction in our embodied carbon and a 75% reduction in our operational carbon. The digital plan will help us deliver these ambitious targets. [8:45] Matt: Tell us about your current development projects and how they're helping socially and environmentally? 100 Liverpool Street is our first net zero development, it has benefited from significant reuse of the previous structure of the building and we worked really hard to design without carbon throughout the process. A lot of thought has gone into how it is going to operate once it's a live building. It's our first building to deliver some of the things in our digital strategy as well.  Canada Water is a really exciting project that we are embedding sustainability principles into. The building is implementing our smart building design guide which will help the building run more efficiently by retrieving useful data out of it during the design stage. [12:35] Sally: What technologies are working for British Land and how are you utilising them? Smart enabling a building makes it digitally capable, the key for that is to allow us to get data out of the building in such a way that we can surface it through a single platform. The data allows us to see what is working and manage the building more efficiently over time. Machine learning and AI helps us control the building to drive more efficiencies. We're working with a company called Facilio, they have built this entire data platform for us which things like AI can sit on. The Equiem platform works alongside Facilio to see how and when rooms in buildings are being used. [16:08] Matt: Is there anything you would like to add to the data side of smart buildings? We have learnt a lot in the development and delivery of 100 Liverpool Street. Installing smart metre systems lets us know exactly where and when energy is consumed in a building. The system will also communicate the data to a wider platform, allowing us to take a software approach to the building.  With this data we can apply it at a portfolio level rather than replicating it within each building. [19:29] Sally: What do we need to tackle in the future? We are now turning our attention to our old developments, ultimately we're all going to have to think about retrofitting our old buildings.  We have to figure out a way of delivering this digital transformation much more cheaply, especially with the rising energy costs. [22:15] Matt: What lies ahead in terms of environmental sustainability? People are finally listening to this issue and it is really important to make sure we've got the resources and skill sets to respond to it. We have been tackling operational carbon for a long time, we need more understanding and data surrounding embodied carbon so we have a more rapid process to help reduce it in the next few years.   L – Touch on the main lessons you have learnt throughout your career. Sally: What stands out for me at companies that I have worked for is the culture value and leadership. British Land and Cadbury are the two places where I have enjoyed and achieved the most. M - Please give a mention to anyone / product / service. Matt: Our own internal digital placemaking team, they have been working really hard working on the vision and delivering 100 Liverpool Street. R – What has been the most  rewarding  aspect of working within the digitalisation space? Sally: Working with this small team at British Land, they've been brilliant at navigating their way through a very complex landscape in a cost effective way with an incredible set of products. E - What are you excited about in the future of environmental sustainability? Matt: I'm excited about the recognition that ESG is now gaining and the seriousness that people are starting to approach the subject with. Also, the digitalisation of real estate because that will have a significant part to play in the decarbonisation of the built environment.    Sponsors Launch Your Own Podcast A Podcast Company is the leading podcast production and strategic content company for brands, organisations, institutions, individuals, and entrepreneurs. Our team sets you up with the right strategy, equipment, training, guidance and content to ensure you sound amazing while speaking to your niche audience and networking with your perfect clients. Get in touch jason@apodcastcompany.com

There are three types of friends. There are those people who are friends with you because they get stuff from you. There are those people who are friends with you because of the way you make them feel. And there are the people who just love you. Okay. Those would be the three types of friends and obviously, we would love and if every single one of our friends was quote-unquote type three, who loves us, just cuz.So how do we figure this out?https://www.ourfriendlyworldpodcast.com/ https://www.facebook.com/FriendlyWorldPodcast https://www.instagram.com/befriendlyworld/ https://twitter.com/FriendleeBe https://www.linkedin.com/in/fawn-anderson-5139431a6/ How to Tell What Kind of Friend You Have - TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Fawn: Enjoying your coffee? [00:00:06] Matt: Maybe a little. [00:00:07] Fawn: Hi, good morning. Good morning over here, where we are right now. Good evening. Good afternoon. And hello everyone. How are you? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? Ah, welcome back everybody. So, how do you know, how do you know, what kind of friend you have, Matt?? [00:00:26] Matt: How do you know? Well, first, [00:00:28] Fawn: well, first of all, Matt always has a way to spot things out immediately. And then when you ask and then he'll like tell you the most messed up stuff about someone that you think, well, I think is okay, cause I have this Disney or Pollyanna version of the world. And then he'll whisper to me later. How this person is [00:00:51] Matt: no good. Uh, sometimes, sometimes not, [00:00:54] Fawn: well, some, well, I'm just saying like the times I've been totally shocked by your assessment within a few seconds. And the weird thing is you're right. How do you do it? And then when I ask you for advice, you never have anything for me,

My guest today is Matt Nichols, founder of Commerce Ventures. They back entrepreneurs from every background building the infrastructure for tomorrow's industries. We focus our time deconstructing web.3 and how it could be impactful to brands and change retail. Here are some of the questions I ask Matt: How did you get started in venture capital? When did you found Commerce VC? Why the focus on retail? How can blockchain technology help retail? What's wrong with current loyalty programs? Paint us a picture of the change in buying behavior for a consumer from the moment they step into a store. Do brands need to embrace Web3 in order to win in the next generation? How should brands approach the creation of digital goods and partnerships with platforms? What's your due diligence process Supply chain traceability What's your view about digital goods? What could you not do that blockchain solves for? What's the relationship between NFT and luxury? What has to work in order for the whole supply chain to transact through smart contracts? How do you also think about customer identification when it comes to wallet ownership? How is this a better point of contact with a person than email?Activity is fully traceable What do you think is one thing that's overlooked when it comes to the intersection of blockchain and retail? Too many use cases What's one book that inspired you professionally or personally?The Hard Things About Hard Things Endurance - Shackleton's Journey to the Southpole Spend time with the customers, try to understand their problems?

Matt Lyon is the President and CEO of Hydrapak. He's worked in the outdoor industry for decades and serves as the Board Chair of the California Outdoor Recreation Partnership. In this episode we ask Matt: How did Hydrapak get started? How many leaky reservoir prototypes did you go through? What's the hardest part of the pack to reliably seal? Do you have any tips for cleaning and caring for hydration reservoirs? When you go out for a ride, do you prefer bottles or a hydration pack? What are the challenges when it comes to making environmentally friendly products? How big of an impact does using recycled materials make versus creating long-lasting products that need to be replaced less often? Aside from supply chain issues, has the pandemic caused you to rethink your businesses in any significant ways? What are the advantages of building products in the US using US-sourced materials? Do you think this plays a big role in consumer purchasing decisions? What are some of the things the California Outdoor Recreation Partnership is currently advocating for at the state level? As a registered investment advisor, is the bike industry a good place for individuals to invest their savings and for retirement? As someone who has studied mechanical engineering, what frustrates you about the biking experience today? --Keep up with the latest in mountain biking at Singletracks.com and on Instagram @singletracks --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/singletracks/support

I've known today's guest before I even ventured into the professional WordPress industry. In fact, it wasn't his themes that revolutionized my thinking, it was the checkout process. Brian Gardner launched a theme company using a payment portal and delivery tool called e-junkie. I just checked, they still exist, they were the Gumroad before Web 3.0 was even a thought in Web 2.0's mind. I couldn't believe it. Someone could zip up WordPress code, put it on a website, set a price, and someone could buy it?! I wanted to do the same thing. But until then, I had an agency to run so I used Revolution Themes, then Genesis, then to the whole StudioPress suite to make that happen. Fast forward, Gardner not only sold SP to WP Engine, but he left the gig shortly after, only to make a return with his latest product, Frost. Enjoy today's conversation with Brian Gardner, Principal Developer Advocate at WP Engine, creator of many things and many blogs. Find his newly redesigned blog at briandgardner.com. If you fancy supporting the show, buying me a digital coffee or joining my fantastic private Discord server, head on over to buymeacoffe.com/mattreport — I'll shout your name from the Twitter rooftops. Episode Transcript [00:00:00] Matt: so many folks who sit on the sidelines and Monday quarterback like me I see folks sell their business and , and they joined the team and I know in my heart that as a builder, as an entrepreneur, , they won't be there that long.[00:00:14] And they're there for a year. I think roughly you were at WP engine for a year after selling studio[00:00:20] Brian: press to them longer than that. But it sort of been to which in and of itself as a piece of conversation. Go ahead.[00:00:26] Matt: And then I saw you sort of leave P and L I was like, yep. I knew it. And there's nothing wrong with that because God that we have such a passion to build something, but I don't know of anyone who's who sells it to the company, leaves built something else, sells it back to the company and.[00:00:41] You're going for a hat trick question, mark.[00:00:44] Brian: No. No. And in fact, it's, it's funny, you are the only person who, with the exception of Bob Paul, Lacey, who had months ago made a kind of comment about that. You're the only person in this round when I got hired and when Frost was acquired to actually have.[00:01:01] Pointed that out. And of course I took that bait and this is why we're on the show today. But I talked to our PR team and I was like, look, this is just something that could be a thing that people might talk about or in this context. And surprisingly, and that's fine because it's really, it really was a news event.[00:01:16] This time around Yeah. I was just like, okay, what are the possible negative reactions? People might have to something like this. And I was like, that's about the only thing I can come up with. Well, people may point out that this happened and it, whatever, it's all good. Everyone's happy. You've built a[00:01:31] Matt: lot of stuff from digital products to courses, to eBooks, to blogs, to knit mail email lists and newsletters, like all things that were in some form or fashion, a business, a micro business.[00:01:43] When I saw you. Go back to a WP engine and they had acquired frost in my head. I started thinking, you know what, these, and this is my words, not yours. And I hope it doesn't offend you. But these micro products are almost like a fantastic calling card to get an awesome gig. Right. Ha had it not been you, but somebody else in this position, it could be like, I built an awesome little product.[00:02:11] And sometimes the weight of that is like, oh God, I got to S I get up market. I gotta sell it. I gotta promote it. I gotta support it. I got to take over the world. But then sometimes it's like, no, I can actually use this in place of a resume and get an awesome job somewhere. Is that a fair statement?[00:02:27] Brian: I would think so.[00:02:28] I don't think that that necessarily applies to everybody. We know right now, Matt, that the competitive landscape in WordPress is off the charts, especially in light of the behemoths. And, and we're one of them, right? WP, engine, GoDaddy, liquid web, all those it's really difficult to, and I'll conversely, make a counter argument here after this.[00:02:47] It's very difficult to like create and launch something new and have it be successful and widely adopted and so on now, conversely. That is also, if you have the idea, something really, really brilliant, that really solves a problem that catches a lot of users and stuff like that. Then it becomes because of aforementioned behemoths, a very interesting acquisition piece, right?[00:03:07] Go to liquid web. They've bought a lot of things lately. None of them have been, well, that's not true. Some have been larger, right. Eye themes and so on. And then some of them are just like smaller pieces that kind of fill a niche that allow them to use their sort of their. The abilities to reach and build and support from an infrastructure standpoint, a subset of people.[00:03:28] And so it can work. It can be, I wouldn't necessarily say that should be someone's business plan. Just given my tenure in the industry and the success I've had, it's been helpful to have that sort of be true.[00:03:41] Matt: Web hosts, obviously WP engine being one of the largest, if not the largest managed WordPress hosts in the industry GoDaddy liquid web.[00:03:49] I think a lot of folks myself included have sort of illustrated this picture, that well, we all kind of hypothesized that they're all looking to build and curate their own WordPress experience. Without giving away the secret meetings, maybe at WP engine and the secret sauce. Is that, is that something that you see coming down the pipe, maybe if not WP engine others, and maybe why they acquire fros and studio presses to sort of put these pieces in place.[00:04:19] So when you come to a WP engine, you experienced WordPress. You go to liquid web, you experience it that way. Is, is that something that you see as holding true in the year 20, 20[00:04:28] Brian: a hundred percent, a hundred percent. I think we see it on several levels. And even outside of the WordPress market, just the, sort of the consolidation, the platform building, go daddy sold domains back in the day.[00:04:39] Then they went to hosting. And then when they realized that the people who are buying those things would buy other things or are doing other things. Then all of a sudden they're an email marketing company and then, oh, WordPress explodes. Now we're going to be a WordPress hosting email, but like, like, and so yes, it makes sense.[00:04:54] And everyone's good at what they do. And when you really find what you're great at, then you sort of, I wouldn't say exploit, but then you really sort of double down on that by looking around in the space and saying, Hey, are there products that align with what we're trying to do? And is it, is it better for us to acquire those products?[00:05:10] Because it takes us less time to build. We can go right to market. We can, there's an existing audience as studio press was a huge audience that WP engine picked up and things like that. So yeah, I would say that's a fair state. Do you know,[00:05:21] Matt: there's in the news and the courting eh, in the week of this week, it's January 13th.[00:05:27] And we've seen over the last week, just a lot of discussion of paying contributors in the WordPress space. It's something that I've always thought of too, like going way back, like how. All these folks volunteer. They all have to go through the stress of like a theme developer. Like I was way, way, way back in the day, asking them why didn't this team get approved?[00:05:47] Why are you telling me I have to adjust this tab space in the functions file. Like it's so subjective. I should just be like, lots of stress. That folks don't really need to go through as volunteers now resurfacing again, how to get people paid. I think hosting companies are in a good position since.[00:06:06] Winning off of the back of WordPress, that there could be something there, more sponsored contributions more ways to it doesn't doesn't maybe always have to be about payments. It could be about featuring or highlighting or spotlighting folks because not everybody wants to make money off their volunteer ism with WordPress.[00:06:25] Is, are there any efforts or maybe. Contributing more to core with paid positions, let's say. Is that kind of a topic fall under a principal developer advocate at WP engine? Are those the kinds of things you hear in field for the company?[00:06:41] Brian: Yes. WP engine did not hire me so that I could go write code for WordPress.[00:06:45] Let's let's be clear about that. Damn they did. However, Hire me because of my expertise, my tenure in the field, my ability to understand the value that I could bring through the WordPress and WP engine sort of relationship. And as part of the leeway and the latitude I've been given to go do my thing. I brought on Nick Diego, who is an engineer.[00:07:07] And I learned V and he, he actually was supposed to backfill me with frost before the acquisition for us was going to be a side project. And because of my job, I brought in Nick to help sort of carry the load until I realized how much Nick and I aligned and what a resource he could be. And so I made the recommendation that we hire him as part of a developer relations so that we could do the very thing, right.[00:07:28] Part of his responsibilities and part of what I pitched was. There is an opportunity for us to sort of lead the space from a thought leadership perspective to help contribute code as he and I were both knee deep and code following along, the Gutenberg development where press 5.9 and stuff.[00:07:43] And I said, there's a lot of things that we're finding as we're working through building our thing that instead of just trying to like make a fix or a hack inside of our product Contribute that code or that patch or the fix, or the suggested way of doing things upstream back to WordPress.[00:07:59] And so a lot of the work that we're doing now is in fact core contribution stuff. Nick is also going to be doing some stuff with learn. And so w. WP engine just really understands the value of sort of the five for the future stuff. We've got several members committed to that. We just recently did it contribute to WP day where we really encouraged a lot of the folks in the community to do stuff like that.[00:08:20] And so I'm because like you said, I have one with WordPress for 15 years now. Right. It helped me leave my day job. Provides for my family and stuff like that. So I always have a place in my heart. It's easier now because I have the backing and support of WP engine and our resources to kind of make that move.[00:08:38] And I'm not getting any resistance from the higher ups there. They, I think they see the value and the contributions and sort of the, the PR that comes from that. There's some, there's some benefit there. But we just want to see WordPress get better. So our products and our customers experience.[00:08:54] Matt: How does frost fold into speaking of customer experience? How does frost fold into the. The existing suite of softwares that you sold them studio press. How does that merge? Is, are we still too early on, on those days for those, for those discussions, but how does it fold into the experience of WP engine users or potentially even studio press users?[00:09:15] So[00:09:15] Brian: this pet, let me give some context. So th this past summer after a sort of a failed attempt at doing something in the real estate space I came across an article. Written by Justin tablet on WP Tavern. And in that article, he was talking about block patterns and this is sort of as like the patterns kind of were hitting their infancy and they talk about there being a pattern directory and stuff like that.[00:09:38] I've obviously followed WordPress even while I was sort of away doing some things with real estate. I was like, okay, we sold studio press in part because I had no idea what the future of WordPress was going to be. Right. That was part of the reason we just didn't have the resources. We weren't sure we, we didn't want to compete.[00:09:52] And so we sold that.[00:09:58] We talked, I'm a creator. I'm always thinking I always want to build and do stuff like that. And so, so when I was on this article, I went over to the, the pattern repository or the directory and it, there was like a little tile of patterns and there's a button that said click to copy code or whatever, copied it.[00:10:13] I went into my blog, so I was doing something and I just hit paste. And like this thing showed up like this arrangement of design. And I was like, wait a second. I like that. That's like a theme agnostic design agnostic thing. And I think it was like, at that point was when sort of, it was very, very like original epiphany that kind of backed the frost project.[00:10:33] When I was like, wait a second. Now I understand where we're presses going. Right. These idea of blocks and styles and patterns and layouts that like kind of all these words being thrown around. And I was like, wait a second. So I can create these sections of. Website and in one click allow people to import them into a page.[00:10:50] And like, if you did that five or six times, you could essentially allow people to build a homepage and like literally 20 seconds. And I was like, okay, so that that's sorta was the, the original fire that was lit around frost. And so, because at the time it just made sense. I built frost originally as a Genesis child theme, just because right.[00:11:08] Part of the family. It was what I've always known. And so we launched a paid product called frost and it was a theme and it was a corresponding plugin that had all of the designs and the patterns and stuff like that. And then full site editing started to become more of a thing. And so I installed Gutenberg and realized.[00:11:25] There's going to be life after Genesis the framework, because a lot of what full site editing does is what Genesis did it handled markup and the ability to move things around. And so I said, well, Let's do what I did back in 2006, let's open up a bunch of blank files and start writing a theme from scratch.[00:11:43] And so current version of frost, probably three months ago was literally just sort of modeled after stuff I saw. I think it was on Carolina's full site editing or some tutorial on like, what is. Full site editing theme, look like it's got to have these files, the structure, it's a complete paradigm shift from where it was.[00:12:00] And I was like, let's just see if I could do this. And so I basically replicated the design of the Genesis child theme version of frost and started building out current version of frost. So that became a thing. And we launched it, started selling it. I was trying to extend a little bit of financial runway so that I could keep playing around with what I was doing.[00:12:17] So I reached out to Heather Bruner, our CEO just to say hi to check in and just see if she knew of anybody in the industry who might be looking for some contract work. And at the same time internally, they were talking about WordPress developer relations. And she says, funny, you should ask because we've been thinking of this position and I don't know.[00:12:34] That there's anybody better suited for it than you, which is the intersection of what I told her design community and WordPress. And so, we worked out something that made a lot of sense at the time frost was on the outside which I felt conflicted about because a lot of the work I was going to be doing was around WordPress and building and stuff like that.[00:12:50] And so, ultimately I made the recommendation that we just bring it into. Into the fold so that I can work on it. Full-time we can use that as a way to demonstrate where WordPress is going to teach folks in the community what's going on. And so on.[00:13:02] Matt: So it doesn't detach from you. It's not like, okay, now it's gone into the abyss of WP engine.[00:13:07] My[00:13:07] Brian: is not. And Nick and my F yeah, no, it's under our full control. It's a developer relations project.[00:13:13] Matt: Yeah. Did you, when you sat back, did you have those same feelings of okay. I going to do this again. I have to build, well, you already have a headstart with your brand and recognition and followers and all that stuff.[00:13:26] But even that, I'm sure you're still like, oh God, I gotta, I gotta do this all over again. I gotta set up a checkout system. I have to set up a licensing system. I, I have to market this thing. I gotta support. And I[00:13:36] Brian: gotta do all this stuff a hundred percent.[00:13:38] It was exciting just because it had been since studio press formed way back in the day where I was really fully in control, as we merged into Copyblogger in 2008 or nine, and then for like 10 or 12 years, we had sort of the infrastructure of the company and stuff like that.[00:13:52] So I didn't have to like, bear that load independently. As I had at the beginning of studio press. And so like, it's a different space than it was back then. And, and thankfully I have the cloud, the email lists sort of the reach, the exposure to WordPress. So it made sense. It didn't quite hit the way I was hoping that a studio press did back in the day, but again, we're in different times and that's okay.[00:14:16] But you know, like at the end of the day, what it came down to was for the last 15 years I've been doing sort of the self-employment entrepreneur things start up, you feel sort of a thing. And even like early on into frost, I was like, this is going to be another long thing and that's fine. I like this kind of thing.[00:14:33] And I think it would have done well on its own. But I was just ready. I was ready for, and I wrote about this on a torque article about seasons change. I was just ready to finally work for somebody else to, to have access to team members, to be fully supported, to get good benefits, pay, like all of those things.[00:14:48] I just, I needed a mental break and, I foresee this break being of several years, not just like a couple months, so[00:14:54] Matt: you said, I feel like frost didn't hit. Maybe like studio press fell, but different times, is that a gut feeling?[00:15:02] Did you measure it , instinctually as somebody who's launched so many things, did you just kind of know like, okay. I'm not feeling that momentum as I maybe did 10 years ago, Yeah.[00:15:13] Brian: Like when you sell something, when you build something and sell something, like you kind of get into this mindset, like, oh, I could do it again.[00:15:19] Right. Once lucky, twice. Good. And, and had I stuck with it, like just me and or Nick at that time, it would have taken probably some time to really get it to a point where it was humming WordPress itself sorta was getting in the way, because it just, it wasn't delivering things that we were looking forward to using and stuff like that.[00:15:35] So it was part gut. , okay, this isn't going to make me a hundred million dollars. Like maybe even a hundred dollars would be great sort of a thing. But I just, as like, like I wanted, I wanted power behind it, not just to have to rely on me. And like I said, I was ready, it was serendipitous me reaching out to Heather, her coming back to me, presenting the offer.[00:15:55] And it's kind of like, she was like, basically let you do what you want to be doing and what you've been doing for 15 years, just under the guise of WP engine and, having gone through the acquisition and the transition for the year afterwards. I had a ton of insight into their culture. And that made it a really easy decision to make, because that was not, is this a company I want to work for?[00:16:15] Cause the answer is hell yeah, I knew, I know how the cultures there. I think a lot of people on the outside don't understand how, how cool and great it is, especially we're 1200 strong. But I was like, wow, this is like almost a dream.[00:16:26] Matt: Yeah. I remember people talking about WP engine, just like when, when they hit 400 people, they, wow.[00:16:32] Like, that's amazing. And now it's like triple and probably just chasing automatic, which I, I think just hit the 2000 mark or just under 2000. So, it's pretty amazing to see like pure. Play companies. Because again, WP engine is only doing WordPress, right? You haven't introduced at other CMS yet.[00:16:50] Right? There's nothing they're getting into headless that might introduce some stuff that might be outside of the realm of WordPress, but you're certainly not hosting Drupal anytime soon,[00:16:59] Brian: correct? Correct.[00:17:01] Matt: That's awesome. Can we chat about the real estate endeavor for a moment? You said it fair.[00:17:09] Anything that you can point to as to maybe why wrong time global pandemic, what was going on with that, with that real estate endeavor of yours. And why did you decide to just exit it?[00:17:21] Brian: So I've always been interested in real estate. We've bought and sold houses over the years, probably 10 over the last 20 years and an agent press, which you may remember was a thing that we did a copy of.[00:17:31] For a few years. So we dabbled in it and I realized just how bad design and marketing is in that space. Generally speaking compass being the exception and maybe a few others. And so I was like, okay, well I have, through the years, I've made several relationships with people sort of higher up in the real estate industry.[00:17:50] So I knew I'd kind of have like an easy launch pad. I get design. I could build it on a WordPress. I've got some spokespeople people who could sort of be advisers to the company who are, experiencing Zillow and all that kind of stuff. And then the pandemic hit and what happened really was probably a couple of things.[00:18:04] One, it probably just wasn't built in packaged the right way. But number two real estate agents got really, really busy because of the housing. They, they, everyone, you would follow it. Oh, I have 36 offers today. Like nobody has time or at the time they didn't feel the need to have a website because their business was exploding.[00:18:24] I don't have time for a website I'm standing in line at open houses. Like, and the sad thing is like in six months or a year, whenever the housing market comes back to earth. Done dental need it, then they'll be like, oh crap. Cause now that you've got a bunch of new agents, people who jumped into the market because of all of what was going on.[00:18:41] So then like the, the demand will go down, but like the supply of agents then is there. And so there's more competition, but I was like, I, I don't have time to weather, all of that. And then frost kind of came up and, things with agent engine, just kind of, weren't really doing its thing. And I was like, I was okay with that.[00:18:55] It was a good college try[00:18:57] Matt: because it was more like it was more agency. Experience than just a product, right? Cause[00:19:02] Brian: you were, I know it was more product based. It was more, we call it digital spaces where we sort of built Jason Schuler of WordPress fame sort of built this profile management system, which I thought was really gonna take off with like associations or, brokerages that had teams of people that wanted to sort of showcase them individually.[00:19:21] Like the idea on paper was really, really good. I think we just poorly executed at the wrong time. So. But I'm okay with that. Like lessons learned, right. We're here where we are.[00:19:29] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I tell you it's what an interesting time, because you had real estate agents who, you know, probably whatever, maybe not immediate at the pandemic hitting, but a couple months in just being just the fish were jumping into the boat.[00:19:44] You didn't even have to cast a line in they're like website. I don't have time for a website, but then. This whole range at an opposite end of an industry restaurants who are like, oh, we never launched that website. And now we have to do takeout a hundred percent of the time. I know I had, I haven't been in the, my data.[00:20:04] I, my dad runs the agency. I'm well beyond that at th at this point, but it still runs. And I had tons of people calling me at that moment. Literally watching the news restaurants are shutting down, calling me up. Like, I need that website, Matt. , where, where are you? Five 10 years ago when we were telling you to do this a crazy, crazy time for web and for people who haven't caught up at that point.[00:20:26] When I look at. You were saying before, like one of your aha moments with Gutenberg was I copied and pasted and it was kind of like, wow, I can see where the vision is going. Matt Mullenweg could always talk, has always talked about WordPress being like the operating system of the web. That was something that was always interesting to me is what really kept me motivated with WordPress.[00:20:48] I now see this hearing him say that Gutenberg is bigger than WordPress, sort of, kind of nonchalantly in the state of the word. I kind of see maybe that same thing of fusing, like the operating system with code. So Genesis studio press remember back in the day, you're building it all through the functions.[00:21:06] PHP file. I can imagine a world where now you're just copy pasting snippets of code, like the query blocks and stuff like that. Pre pre queried for you. Like all the codes there. Boom, copy paste it. And now I'm developing air quotes to the listener. Who's only listening to audio. Developing by copying pasting snippets of code and dropping blocks in do you have any other future out look on, on where Gutenberg might be going?[00:21:31] Maybe things you might be looking at to build into Gutenberg. Into frost that would push the boundaries.[00:21:38] Brian: Nothing monumental. I We're just obviously following along where WordPress is going, this it's taken us three years to get here. We're working through this now full site editing thing, which I th I think is still gonna take some time.[00:21:50] Right. Which we've already seen the delay from December to January. And I was in full support of that. Cause I didn't think it was going to be ready and I'm more than okay. Especially now that I don't have to. Like obsess over building a product and like put food on the table based on what I sell. Now it's like kind of a kickback and just follow along as it's happening.[00:22:09] And, Nick and I are on get hub and select daily, oh, do you see this commit? Do you see this change? And I'll be honest. I don't know that there are many people in the group of people who are at the forefront of what's going on with WordPress. Then he and I right now, because we are so. We practically have alerts going off, in our own heads.[00:22:27] I just posted 30 seconds ago. How would I see that? Because we, we love it so much. We, we absolutely are infatuated. We call ourselves black editor, fanboys. Like it's, it's kinda crazy and almost embarrassing the extent, but 15 years later, I'm still in love with WordPress. The way that I was and even more so now, because I'm starting to see.[00:22:46] WordPress itself, starting to solve the problems that we tried to solve back in the day with like magazine style themes and stuff like that. It's so easy to want to still primarily build your own thing and around it. And, we're presses now making it so easy with where it's going. It's not perfect and never will be, but they're doing things in a way that make it really easy for people like me to sort of identify where the opportunities are.[00:23:10] And especially those who love design. I could do so much with just WordPress core and a simple theme so much. And that's how I felt back when I launched revolutions. Like, Hey.[00:23:20] Matt: And as a product owner and business owner, software developer, you kind of get that this stuff iterates over time.[00:23:28] And when Gutenberg first launched and everyone just like flipped the table, which, I was one of those folks too, but it was more about how, it was being communicated, how it was being like, whatever the Pictet at the time and enrolled that it had nothing to do about. You know the features of Gutenberg.[00:23:43] Although I still struggle with trying to like grab a block and put it in between two columns is like still a thing that I have to like wrestle and throw my computer with. I always knew like, Hey, this thing's going to get better.[00:23:54] It's just version 0.0 0, 0 1 that we're at like, don't we all like, there's so many software people in this space. Why was everybody losing their mind? That it wasn't good enough yet? This software's never good enough day one. It always gets better over time. Any thoughts on like the iteration of Gutenberg or how you looked at the launch of Gutenberg when that.[00:24:12] Yeah,[00:24:12] Brian: I was the same way. I wasn't sure it was very clunky. I think it kind of got rushed out back in that, that one December. But I think it had to be, I at some point we met that's written before about 1.0 and shipping and iterating and stuff like that. And so I think it was a necessary evil I think Gutenberg, the plugin being a thing now sort of, kind of pulls up.[00:24:30] From the core and like the general consumer standpoint, like seeing these sort of iterations and breaking changes and things like that, they've put it in the plugin, which, which is helpful because it allows people who are developing for WordPress to see what's coming to know how to address it. When it looked like a lot of people, when 5.9 launches, they'll be like, oh, w what's changed since 5.8.[00:24:50] Oh, my God, if you even knew, like so much has changed, but like, we'll be ready for it. Like frost will be 100% production ready when five, it is already, but you know, when 5.9 ships will be fully taken advantage of all the things. Cause we've been on the Gutenberg daily trail ever since then.[00:25:06] But speaking of Sarah McLaughlin, one of the 11 tweets I've favorited in my 15 years of Twitter was her response. She did ask me anything and I said, what's your favorite quote? And she quoted Gandhi's be the change you want to see in the world. And , obviously that that's sort of ubiquitous and we see it all the time.[00:25:21] But when it comes to WordPress and the direction, and this is sort of like Nick and my north star, which is, oh, this isn't working, we're frustrated with how this works. Well, you could do two things. You could piss about it and like, go on Twitter and talk about how bad it is. Or you can roll up your sleeves and figure out how to make it better.[00:25:36] And that is a lot of what we're doing. With developer relations at WP engine, we're teaming up with people on automatic side where other people's sides, rich Taylor is a good friend and we're trying to figure out how do we, universalize some things and just like really be that change.[00:25:50] And, we hope not only will that make WordPress better, maybe some of the people on the sidelines, these Monday quarterbacks as you call them, maybe it'll say, Hey, maybe there's something to like, Approach that they're taking, and maybe it's less about, dogging the platform that helped us win and helping it when, when, when for others and stuff like that.[00:26:09] Matt: Yeah. I can tell you that the one thing that Sort of afraid of is just the the pollution, I guess, of the block directory and what that potentially leads to in a customers. I say customer, I'm thinking I have agency on my mind, but thinking of you logging into somebody's website, who's not a WordPress aficionado.[00:26:28] And then. You have a thousand plugins installed. What's wrong with you? I can see that same thing happening with like the block directory, especially some of the things I've already starting to see where product companies are starting to inject their icon into like a, I don't know. I'll call the task bar.[00:26:46] I don't know what the official WordPress name is for that tray that sits above the editor where you can expand in different. And then, like I w installed a couple of themes the other day on one of my test sites. And it was just like, it looked like the bottom of my windows machine. Like all these icons, , oh, crazy.[00:27:01] We go again. , I don't want this. I can see some people doing like animated gifts now. And , oh, come on. , this is bad enough. Notifications already bad enough. Those types of things that you, you hope to maybe standard eyes across other product companies, is there like an official place you start to document this kind of thing to get everybody together or in a perfect world.[00:27:20] Is there a place you'd like to have for folks to rally around these types of things?[00:27:26] Brian: A good question. W we are guilty of that. Nick, Nick built a black pattern Explorer plugin. That adds a very I think we just recycled one of the core icon components that are part of WordPress. So again, we're not trying to do anything proprietary, so, we've created.[00:27:41] Block pattern, explore that very much is maybe maybe inspired what WordPress itself did in core. And we're looking to sort of expand on that and use that sort of in an experimental sense to help inform how things work, how it can be used, and then to take the things that we're building and push them upstream into WordPress, via pull requests.[00:28:01] And so, we are trying to, again, it's easy because for us, it's not a product that will. WP engine over any kind of metric. Like this was sort of brought in with the intent of, it's not gonna make any money, just use this to help go and grow and do all these things. And so, we've always back when Nathan and I Nathan Rice and I built Genesis, like we always sort of defaulted to WordPress core practices and standards and design and UX and all that kind of stuff.[00:28:28] And so. It's just an eight and eight at this point, for whatever we're working on to not be like a blinking Marquis across an admin notice thing. But I understand that it happens and why it happens. And, I think WordPress adding more capabilities to the core software, kind of. To be perfectly honest, that it knocks out the need for a lot of things.[00:28:49] Some of the black libraries that exist and things like that, like we're pressing now has that in core. So like, I'm hoping to, like, as we're press gets stronger with functionality that some of the needs to, to like to do what you said, won't be there. And I don't know if I answers the question, but are you happy to see the customized.[00:29:08] 1000%. I, I hated it from day one. I hated it from day one. I know we did some stuff with it and studio press. I was never a part of that. Cause I refused I've used it for a few things like custom CSS when I was in an emergency or, header, photo, script kind of stuff. But like I hated it. I never liked it.[00:29:27] I'm thrilled.[00:29:28] Matt: Yeah. . Amazing times, Ryan, what would help you and your role at WP engine call to action? Where can folks find you to connect with you to help the cause to join you at WP engine?[00:29:41] Anything or anywhere you want to point people[00:29:42] Brian: to a yes, the Twitter is probably the place that I'm most I'm most active and most available. At B Gardner, you could put that in the show notes, if you want. Tweet me, follow me, DME, whatever. Twitter is usually where we hang out. I'm on Instagram, that's more personal Starbucks shots and baseball things.[00:30:00] So that's less interesting to people in the space might not be tweeting about baseball. Yeah, no kidding. I'm on LinkedIn and I think it's B Gardner 27 and I was late to that party, so I didn't get the handle I wanted, but but Twitter is the place. I'm, periodically dunking around@briangardner.com actually working on a new design, kind of using that as a sandbox.[00:30:19] Yes. Oops. I'm doing it again was always sort of the tweet when you saw that tweet, I redesigned it. And so people have, I've trained people to never, ever think that there's going to be the same design as, as was there the last time, but that that's how products get built because I use my own site as a sandbox.[00:30:34] So, but yeah, Twitter is the best place. Obviously or for WP engine, we're always looking to build our team, not necessarily developer relations quite yet, but The Genesis team is hiring for an engineering person. And just whether it's support. I We see a number of people come up through the Genesis community who are now working there, lots of rock stars.[00:30:52] Like it's just a great place. So, if you're a WordPress person and you're looking for a job, hit me up on Twitter and I'll see if there's something that's Always hiring great people. I think David Vogel, Paul once said we don't hire something to the effect of, we don't hire qualified people. We've hired great people.[00:31:07] Like it kinda just works itself out that way. So, or we don't hire out. I can't remember what he said. I don't, I don't wanna mess up that quick, but it was really, really good. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. So quote here[00:31:17] Matt: pretty much. My report.com maryport.com/subscribe. Join the mailing list.[00:31:22] Number one way to stay connected. If you want to support independent WordPress content like. Buy me a coffee.com/maryport. Not only do you support the show, you can join as a member for $79 a year. Get access to the private discord and join our Merry band of WordPress Newsies, which we chat about. The WordPress news that goes out every Wednesday.[00:31:41] Five minutes is your favorite five minutes of WordPress or on the WP minute.com. Check it out. Join the. Get your name heard in the credits of the show. Talk about WordPress news. That's fun stuff. Thanks for hanging out today, Brian. I'll see everyone else in the next episode. ★ Support this podcast ★

WordPress news is hard. I mean, it's hard to turn it into a real business. I get away with covering WordPress here on the Matt Report because our guests share lessons on how they built their business or spend time telling us how they navigated the community, until they found their way. But news? Well, that's why The WP Tavern has been the only name in town for a while, loaded with two critical components: A dedicated staff and they are funded. If you want to make it, you do things differently, you do things like Rae Morey‘s The Repository newsletter. Today we'll chat about building her WordPress news newsletter, background as a journalist, and explore what it really takes to make all of this work. Thanks goes out to Malcare today for sponsoring a month of Matt Report and The WP Minute. You can help us by visiting buymeacoffee.com/mattrpeort Episode transcript [00:00:00] Rae: It's a completely not in the WordPress world at all. So our processes is, as you said, an experiential design and creative technology company, and we develop experiences for cultural and tourism organizations. [00:00:14] So, you might go into a gallery or museum and experience an audio tour and we create immersive experiences where you can. Wander around a space and he audio that that's designed, especially for that space. It moves with you around, around the gallery or exhibition. We do precinct technology, virtual queuing, augmented reality experiences, and we do exhibition design in. [00:00:40] A lot of different spaces, for example we're doing a a brand new exhibition smack bang in the middle of Montana at the moment for there for first street project there. We do we do the audio guide for the Getty in Los Angeles. So that's an example of the kind of thing I do for my, my day job. [00:00:58] There is communications manager. So I look after Publicity marketing anything to do with words, I guess, on the website? Yeah. That's, that's kind of what I do for a day.  [00:01:09] Matt: Does anybody ever give you like a side eye when maybe a customer comes in and they're like, we have a WordPress website that they look at you and be like, Hey, we think we know somebody who kind of knows this to implement whatever project we might have. [00:01:23] Rae: I don't know. I, I, to be honest, I kind of played down what to do with WordPress, because I don't want to be that person that people kind of like go to asking for, help me with my website. Yeah. [00:01:33] Oh, I I hate to say, but our website and our process is actually uses Drupal. So I've had to learn that this year not, not my decision, but yeah, it's been interesting seeing what the competitions.  [00:01:44] Matt: Yeah, that was the, the second, most serious application I used to build websites was Drupal before or slightly after a front page. [00:01:51] Well, I guess throw Dreamweaver in there too, but we went front page Dreamweaver and then Drupal and then WordPress triples, fantastic platform. I think I wouldn't use it today, but I th I still think it's a very powerful  [00:02:04] Rae: platform using it compared to WordPress at the moment. Very different platforms. [00:02:10] Matt: How do you find time to to do the repository and works by birds and you have a family? How do you, how do you structure your day with all of this stuff?  [00:02:20] Rae: The honest answer is I have no idea. [00:02:21] I, I think over the past couple of years I don't know if you're aware, but Melbourne where I live here in Australia has been the most locked down city in the world. We've had the most restrictions lockdowns out of everywhere. It's just the circumstances I guess, here, but it's given me a lot of time to look at. [00:02:36] To spend on side projects, I guess. So when so the, the repository I started that with came guest star from male poet back in November, 2019. And that was just before the pandemic. And so I guess the repository in a way became a bit of a handy pandemic passion project that I was working on while in locked down and has continued through to now. [00:02:59] And. [00:03:00] Yeah, I was, I was also on maternity leave from my day job throughout 2020. So that gave me a lot of time and focus on building up the newsletter and yeah, since returning to my day job part-time I've, I've just I guess structure my week so that, Part time work and also have the repository for a Dane half a week. [00:03:21] So just try to split up the weight to fit everything in. And also I'm very fortunate to have a partner who. Who I cope? Well, shouldn't say co-parent with where to very much together, but we split our parenting duties 40, 50, 50, which is we're very modern family in that respect. So yeah, we both prioritize our careers, but also our son. [00:03:44] So, yeah. So there, there is a way for moms with a lot of things on to, to do all the things that they are passionate.  [00:03:53] Matt: Do you have a certain structure and I can, I can share mine as well for, for the WP minute, but you have a certain structure that you would, you wouldn't mind sharing on how you keep track of all of the news. [00:04:05] And this obviously is happening throughout the week. Are you jotting things down and the to-do lists in a notion document. And then at the end you go to write up the email and you just sit down with all of those notes in front of you. How does this all come curated?  [00:04:18] Rae: Yeah, look, there's no pulling back the curtain. [00:04:21] There's no special, fancy way that I do it. My background is, is in journalism. I studied journalism at uni and so I naturally just do a lot of note-taking all the time because I'm just every time I see something, I think, oh, that's really cool. And I use apple notes on my my medical kit or my iPhone, I'm an apple person and everything sinks. [00:04:44] And so I'm constantly taking notes. And I guess with the repository I use feedly.com to track something like 70 or 80 different websites and blogs. And so I go through that periodically throughout the week just to track what what's happening and keep on top of everybody's latest updates. I'm also checking Twitter all the time on my phone. [00:05:06] And it's a bit harder to save tweets, so I have to yeah. Finding a way to do that really well, but I'm always checking Twitter, whether I'm No throughout the day or in the evening while I'm watching TV, having having a scroll. And that's mostly, I guess my research for the pository just between those two, just seeing what's going on. [00:05:27] And I guess also just catching up with people throughout the week in the WordPress community, whether it's just aiming on on Twitter or chats over emails and Coles. Those are the kinds of ways that I keep in touch with what's going.  [00:05:42] Matt: Sure the the newsletter there's. So there's a, you just said that there, you're probably tracking 70 to 80 sources of, of news or at least new news that you can throw into an RSS feed and put into. [00:05:53] Feedly probably 20% of them. I would reckon are [00:06:00] our newsletters or have a newsletter component to them. Your newsletter is unique to, to me, by the way, or listen, let me take a step. I'm honored for you to be here. I'm not a journalist, I'm not a great writer. I struggled with words, in fact and I look at your piece as something that is it's fantastic. [00:06:19] It's unique. It's creative. I look at it as a conversation that, that ends up in my inbox. Before I knew who you were. I had some other voice in my head, but then I realized that then I found out who you were. And I was like, oh, now it's your voice. Every time I read the newsletter, like I'm hearing it with this Australian accent. [00:06:37] And it's fantastic. But it's, it's much more of to me anyway, like a S a conversation, maybe a story. Was that on purpose? Is that a strategy? I don't want to slap strategy on art, but is that a strategy of yours to make it different than.  [00:06:53] Rae: When when Kim and I originally started the repository, or at least before, actually before we started the repository and we were talking about ideas because Kim and I are both journalists in previous life. [00:07:05] And we wanted to bring something to the WordPress community. Then I guess, in a way there was an ulterior motive of showing off male poet platform, but also. Well, as, as former journalists, we just wanted to put something together that brought the WordPress news in a way that was, I guess, a lot of new stories in WordPress tend to include a lot of opinion, but we wanted to bring other people's opinions to the fore as well. [00:07:27] We wanted to increase the diversity in the news, but not just by having lots of different new sources, but bringing people's opinions that you might. You might not otherwise see. So the, the format that we came up with and, we still have to this day was looking for looking at a particular issue from a lot of different perspectives. [00:07:52] So we, like a story recently, like I know the word, it's not just the actual state of the word video, but lots of different blog posts in opinions, from different people and what they make. Of the state of the word. So you can kind of, read about read about a new story, but also get the context of where that story fits within the WordPress world and then varying opinions on what people thought about that. [00:08:15] So, you can get that kind of more nuanced viewpoint from, from different people and, and have that way of understanding any issue. From different viewpoints because not everybody looks at things the same way. It's nice to kind of read something, but then understand where, where it fits in the ecosystem. [00:08:31] And that's, that's the approach that we were going for.  [00:08:34] Matt: This is a huge question and I'll let you dissect it and define it and pull pieces out of it as you see fit.  [00:08:41] WordPress news, like what is somebody with a journalistic background? What does that really mean? Or what should it really mean? And maybe even before you answer that, can you help clarify, like what at journalists [00:09:00] produces versus let's say an opinion piece or a commentator might produce, because to be honest with you I didn't discover this recently, but for many years I was just like, oh, I don't know the difference. [00:09:12] I didn't know that you, that a journalist doesn't really put opinion into their, into their piece. And there are certain guidelines that one should approach journalism with versus, I would say like somebody like a Kara Swisher, who's what I would say is maybe a celebrity journalist, but no longer a journalist I think is much more on the commentator side. [00:09:33] For probably many different reasons, but anyway, could you help us define what journalists means to you should mean in the WordPress space?  [00:09:41] Rae: Yeah, it's interesting because there's definitely. Of everything in the WordPress community. I worked in, in newspaper journalism, and so it was very, and I guess the newspaper I worked for, it was very straight in that it was, new stories to get one report on one side of the debate and the other side. [00:09:58] Of the debate. You make sure you have balanced views on a topic and you present that and that's purely without any kind of opinion. And you try to be as objective as possible in the way that you present it. So that's, I guess, very traditional old fashioned old school journalism. That's kind of where my background is, I guess, in that, in the WordPress community. [00:10:22] I don't really have anything, I guess the closest to that would probably be Sarah Gooding at WP Tavern. And even then some of her pieces can have some opinion inserted here and there for, for her context. She's, she's been in the community for a really long time. So her opinions, I, I find it fairly valid, but but yeah, that's not really, I guess, old school journalism as, as a lot of people would say it And then you get. [00:10:47] Yeah, I think blog, blog posts and things like that, where people offering an opinion that's I wouldn't really class that as news, so much as it's opinion and people adding their perspectives to the debate. It's, it's an interesting one in the WordPress community. We don't have a lot of new sources. [00:11:03] A lot of people have tried to start WordPress news over the years. Haven't been, haven't been that successful because it's. It's not a business that is profitable as we've seen more broadly in, in the news industry with the rise of the internet and, the fighting for advertising and paywalls and, and all of, all of that kind of thing. [00:11:23] In in WordPress, we could, we could definitely use more new sources, that the greater diversity you have with news the more accountability businesses have to have to operate in this environment. The more and more scrutiny, the better, I think, in terms of, businesses operating and, and making sure that they're operating above board It would certainly be nice to have more new sources. [00:11:45] It's, it's certainly great that there are a lot of people who, who blog and share their opinion. But yeah, I think there's definitely room for, for more harder news in the WordPress community, particularly, over the past year, how we've had so many [00:12:00] acquisitions, right. And we were going from an ecosystem full of, I guess, small to medium businesses to, we've got big corporates and multinationals, I guess, like Google that are operating in, in our in our ecosystem. [00:12:12] And, we want to keep those businesses to. No, around what they're doing. And I, I'm not saying way to, to scare them, that they shouldn't be in our ecosystem, but, just to, people want to know what's what's going on and, and, and make sure that they're operating in a, in a fair. [00:12:27] Matt: Let's say news article or piece or research even if you went to an acquisition that happened a year, two years ago we might be checking in on, let's say something like an eye themes was probably the one that I can think of at least off the top of my head, that dates pretty far back, big company getting picked up by a hosting company. [00:12:46] And now Corey who started that company now runs both status. One might say. Let's take a look at what happened with these acquisitions in terms of employment. Are the people still there? Is the products. What it was when they acquired it. What is the price point look like? Have these, big hosting companies, which catch a lot of heat because they are big hosting companies. [00:13:08] Did they just roll it into their mega solution? And the once artismal piece of themes is just gone and it's just another toggle, it's just another toggle on the dashboard, right? Is that a fair assessment to say that's the kind of news that we were journalism that we would want to see in the space, or at least maybe you would want to see in the space, not trying to put words in your mouth, but  [00:13:30] Rae: yeah, I think that kind of journalism would be good. [00:13:32] I guess, It's interesting because we work in a space with some really big companies and there are lots of acquisitions going on. It's it's it's, that would be interesting to say, the, the, the the quality and the end product that's offered to, to users is that being maintained, as I know there's been a bit of angst with also motive of buying out people plugin, Sandhills development it'd be interesting to go back in, as you say, in 12 months time. [00:13:56] And from looking at that story as a journalist, you'd probably want to Find long-term users and get their perspectives, whether that's on the record or as background for a story and maybe speak to stuff. If they're happy to speak, even anonymously, get their, their views on how they think the. [00:14:16] Transition has been yeah, those are the kinds of interesting stories that we're not really seeing so much, we're saying the, the, the acquisition and the sale, but we're not really seeing the I guess the journey of how acquisitions are tracking. We're not seeing what's happening to, particularly with automatic buying out so many distances, what are happening to those businesses? [00:14:36] They bought quite a few in the, in the past year and the past few years have been interesting to say, what's, what's happened to the end product house has been absorbed into it, automatic and wordpress.com and, and it has it, has it been for, I guess, the greater good in supporting those employees and, and the businesses, but also providing a a more polished product for the end user. [00:14:57] If that, if that was the purpose of the, of the equity.[00:15:00]  [00:15:01] Matt: I think another, another topic would be something like a core, core contributors, which companies are funding core contribution to the WordPress core. I think in Matt's state of the word, which I do have the slides on the WP minute. [00:15:15] So I'll try to link up in the show notes. I think he showed a graphic of automatic somewhere in the seventies. Person, mark a Yoast coming in again, this is just off the top of my head. I think second place with maybe 14 people. And then it's like GoDaddy who just acquired Pagely who's a multi-billion dollar publicly public. [00:15:36] Are they publicly traded? I better not see, this is what, this is what makes a real journalist. They don't just say things like, I think they're a publicly traded company. If they're not, they're really big. And they've got billions and billions of dollars, but I think only four or five people. Actually contributes to core and word press is a massive part of their business. [00:15:53] Why aren't they doing? Why aren't they doing more for, for WordPress what's, what's the reason. And how much are they really benefiting off of open source? I think a lot of people give Matt an automatic, a lot of heat around the fact that, well, this is an open source product and, and this is just all funneling to the top of wordpress.com to make wordpress.com more money, but it's oh, by the way, There are billion dollar hosting companies leveraging this to who are not giving back. [00:16:20] Yeah. And don't  [00:16:21] Rae: forget Google as well. They're, they're pretty massive company. And, and I'm not sure exactly how many people they've contributed to the, how are they contributing to WordPress 5.9. But. Yeah, it'd be interesting, but you also mentioned Yost in there and I wonder if they'll increase their contributed the numbers now that new fold digital has acquired them. [00:16:39] It'd be interesting to say, how that contribution space changes and, and also in the state of the word Matt shared how he liked to see that landscape of contribution change in the coming years. So, Yeah, it would be, it would be great to see those big businesses putting back more in as far as five for the five, five for the future goes it's great to see so many smaller individuals and businesses contributing. [00:17:04] But also another interesting story I think is over the, over the past year, there's been a drop in, in volunteers and contributors to the project. And an automatic is picked up the lion's share of that work, which, you can't fault automatic for, stepping in and, and supporting the project in that way. [00:17:22] It would be great to say. Nice. Some of the bigger businesses stepping in and putting out resources for that too. I was really pleased to say XW pays as has, has put up contributors for the performance team and it'd be great to see more businesses like that who have that kind of expertise to be able to, to. [00:17:39] Could contribute their people to different parts of the project. Would that help? Because it's not really just about developers. It's also about marketing and design and mobile. There, there are a lot of different end-to-end education. There are a lot of different spaces that need country. [00:17:54] Matt: And what we've I've hoped we've just done is illustrate how important WordPress news [00:18:00] is and could be if there was more funding in the space. So how do we make money doing this? Ray, I wanna, I wanna pivot and talk about that a little bit because you, you, you have. The, what I'm going to say, the only vehicle for content you put out for WordPress is the newsletter, the repository. [00:18:17] You're just sending out email. You're not doing a blog, you're not doing a YouTube channel. You're not doing a podcast yet. And you monetize that through through sponsorship. It's. Well, I'll let you, I'm not, you don't have to say any numbers. It's not a full-time job for you. In other words, it's not supporting you. [00:18:34] Full-time compared to your day job. Maybe one day will like, what do you think it's going to take to make the repository of full-time job? Is there another. Of an audience in the WordPress news space to build a true air quotes, air quotes business, or should it be selling NFTs to support this  [00:18:55] Rae: maybe, but who knows how long that's going to be around for? [00:18:58] To be honest, I don't see their positories a full full-time job for me. I started it as a bit of a side gig. I thought that would take four, maybe four hours a week. And, and how it's more like a donor. So it does take a bit of time to put together because it's, it's solo single stories, reading everything. [00:19:16] And in making sure that, I don't want to just pick any, tweets to include in the newsletter. I want to make sure that I'm trying to find as many views as possible. And the ones that I'm including in the newsletter, a representative of, of the, of the views that you know, are in the community as well as any of that. [00:19:32] It might be a bit unusual. The, I think that it's an interesting one funding. I'm very lucky to have GoDaddy in element or sponsor sponsoring the newsletter this year. They'd been fantastic sponsors. One thing I do is when I enter into an agreement with a sponsor, I make it clear that. [00:19:52] If that, I want to retain editorial independence. So if there are any stories that involve them good or bad, I'm going to include them in the newsletter. Even earlier in the year when automatic mail poll was sponsoring the newsletter for the all of last year and, and And that was fantastic. [00:20:10] It allowed the newsletter to really great. But then when automatic bought out male poet automatic began took over sponsorship of the newsletter for the first quarter of 2021. And that was part of the agreement as well. I made sure that any stories involving automatic rules, you were going to report on those. [00:20:28] I think it's really important. If any publications have sponsorship agreements of that type, that it is very clear that editorial independence is important and, and that's separate from sponsorship. There are lots of other different models as we've discussed before as well, of the podcast. [00:20:48] There are lots of different models for, for funding use. It's, it's a bit of experimentation, I think there's philanthropy as we've seen that philanthropic or philanthropic funding [00:21:00] model. There are a crowdsourced kind of funding models. It's, it's an interesting one because at the end of the day, P everybody wants news, but not everybody's willing to pay for it. [00:21:10] And that's, that's the struggle is real there. It's really hard to overcome that because for a long time, these is. Well, my speed. Well, it's been free on the internet. It's easy to find sources. A lot of people think that they can find it themselves, but the convenience of having a newsletter letter, like the repository brings it all together and makes it more accessible. [00:21:30] Yeah.  [00:21:31] Matt: How do we encourage, ah, I'll I'll fall on this grenade. You don't have to agree with me. Okay. I'll be, I'll be the guy who says it out loud, but. How do we encourage better content? To be made. And I say content specifically, because I know not every, not everyone doesn't want to cover the inside baseball of, of WordPress. [00:21:58] They don't want to dive deep into stories. I get it because it's a very small audience. And maybe we'll talk about that in a moment. Like it's kind of a small audience who really cares about this stuff versus like, how do I build this element or site to make a thousand dollars a month? That's a much larger audience who cares. [00:22:16] Again, air quotes cares about WordPress. How do we encourage others to create better content? Or do you have any, any words of wisdom on how to create better content so that we all the content creators in WordPress, whether it's a journalist, a, an opinion piece, or maybe even a tutorial. That businesses take us a little bit brands that sponsor us or donate to us. [00:22:39] Take us a little bit more serious because I've overseen. I've. What I've seen is the over-saturation of asking for like donor donations and sponsorships, and then the content never gets made. And what I feel like is that kind of hurts us. Maybe not, I don't know, but it kind of hurts us where we knock on that, that brand's door. [00:23:02] And we say, Hey, we got this great thing. We're pouring so much effort into it. And they go, yeah, that other person burned me for $5,000. And they didn't really, they didn't do the ad read. Right. Or they didn't create the amount of content that we thought, or, the content didn't bring us that much traction. [00:23:18] So, you have this, I'm giving you 5,000. I want 5,000 in one. Any words of wisdom for elevating the quality of content or is it just like survival of the fittest?  [00:23:29] Rae: Yeah, that's a really interesting topic. In the good question. The only way I guess I can answer that is, is from my own experience. [00:23:36] When. I started the ripples of trails or, really fortunate that I guess I was the writer for the project. It was a collaboration between myself and Kim. So I was writing, Kim was basically bankrolling. He didn't, he was, running his own company, didn't have the time. So, there was a collaboration between the two of us. [00:23:53] We talked, discussed the news and, and made the website and we kicked it off with, I think, seven subscribers. I [00:24:00] can't remember in the first issue, not many And we got, got up to about a hundred subscribers and it kind of just plateaued for a while, but we kept on going and slowly and it snowballed, but it took probably a good year of, of the newsletter to really get into. [00:24:21] To really start growing our subscribers. I think by that stage, we might've had two or 300 subscribers by the end of the first year, we were a bit deflated. We thought we'd have more subscribers. And we were trying to try to, become more well known and, and get more people reading. But it's a, it's a pretty hard thing. [00:24:39] And so. When it, when it came time for came to step away when male Paul was acquired and then automatic finished sponsoring after they acquired male poet. I was kind of in a spot where I didn't know where I was going to go next with sponsorship. And it was that, that good year of very slow growth and just focusing on writing something quality that attracted GoDaddy to, to sponsor they would, at their hour, they were our first sponsor who really saw what we were, what we were aiming for with the newsletter or by that stage. [00:25:14] No. I was really luckily. So, Laura Nelson, who works at a male poet in their marketing, she's now at world commerce. She was absolutely critical in helping develop that relationship. She's a fantastic member in the WordPress community, so she helped introduce us and yet he's still a sponsor and it's, it's there. [00:25:34] Adam and Courtney and their belief in the newsletter and, and, and wanting to, they also have a sponsor section in the newsletter that allows them to share events and, and, and other pieces with the community. That's, that's been critical in the, the ongoing. Publishing of the newsletter. [00:25:51] Yeah, these kinds of projects can't really can't happen without money family to support. So it's, it's an interesting one in terms of, how do we keep these kinds of things afloat? And as far as going back to your question about quality content, I think I think a lot of people want to make money really quickly. [00:26:10] And yeah, of course, who doesn't, everyone wants to make money, but sometimes it does take a slow burn and working on something with the aim of producing something high quality. Is going to make some money in the end. And I'm happy to say the, and happy to share that. Then the repository is profitable for me. [00:26:27] It's not going to be a full-time job, but for what it, what it is at the moment. And I don't have plans for, major expansion, but it is not well, I, I don't have big plans to have a podcast or a big website and do lots of reporting. People subscribe the same, pretty happy with what it is at the moment. [00:26:48] And, and I am happy to share that in, in the new year, Allie Emmons is coming on board to help with community outreach and in increasing the number of voices that are in the newsletter. That's really important for me to make sure we not just, rinse [00:27:00] and repeating the same voices over and over again, the newsletter. [00:27:03] We want to make sure that people. Who are doing awesome things and they might not be as vocal. We want to make sure that they're included as well. And, and I want the newsletter to be a source of, of amazing work that's happening across the community, not just the same things over and over again as can happen in, in some spaces. [00:27:22] Yeah. Other than  [00:27:25] Matt: one of the things that I think is a challenge is, is that I think. What we want is we want the, maybe not even average WordPress user, but maybe above average WordPress user to want to turn into the news, like turn excuse me, tune into the news. Right? Because Hey, maybe the above average WordPress user is an it professional and she manages a hundred multi-sites for a university. [00:27:53] And. Not in the WordPress community, but my God, wouldn't you like to know when awesome motive buys those, the suite of plugins that you use, and suddenly you're like who the heck is awesome motive. And if I was tuning into a news coverage, maybe somebody doing a piece on who automotive is and the background and the history, et cetera, et cetera Yeah. [00:28:13] I don't know if you've thought about this. I don't know if this is something that maybe you even plan to go into with the newsletter is like, how do we, how do we dip into that segment of the reader of the demographic? I think of a local newspaper, all of a sudden. We're doing fashion week and it's I know what's going on here. [00:28:32] Right? One, you have advertisement that to hope. You're, you're hoping that you're doing fashion week and you're getting some new eyeballs on the, the, the baseline publication, maybe at that it raises more readers in the long run. Is there something like that that we can do without, selling ourselves to affiliate links  [00:28:49] Rae: in? [00:28:50] That's a tough question. How do you, how do you broaden your own. It's a hard one because we're pressing uses so smaller niche and how you reach that kind of other level of, of, users is a, is a tough one. I don't know if I have any answers today. I'd be interested to hear from other people who might've done it successfully, because I can't think of how it, it just feels like there's a, almost like a Seton barrier between. [00:29:18] The people who, who read S I guess, serious WordPress knees that, core contributors and developers and small business owners and people who are very involved in the community. And then everybody else, it just seems like a big step. And Yeah, I don't know. I just don't feel that they're that necessarily interested in, in how WordPress comes together or if people who you use a platform like that, every will be. [00:29:47] That's a, that's a really interesting area to explore.  [00:29:50] Matt: I'm going to say, I'm going to say something in hopes that Sarah Gooding is listening to this and she, and she uses this in the, in the headline. But I think that the cap on the audience [00:30:00] and you could probably. Again, you don't have to reveal anything from your side, but I think the cap on the audience of people who really care about the inside WordPress news is probably right around 3000 human beings on the face of this earth is the number that I would say of people who actually care about. [00:30:21] What Matt says in the state of the word and how it impacts WordPress, for, for, for years, I was gonna say most months, years to come or really care about, themes getting acquired. I think my number is about 3000, maybe on a good day, 3,500, but I'd say 3000 is the global reach of WordPress news. [00:30:41] Yeah, I can use that, Sarah, if you want.  [00:30:45] Rae: Well, I'll tell ya. I don't have that many subscribers to the newsletter. It's it's, it's an interesting one. Like how, how many people are really interested in WordPress news because I've spoken to. People who work at automatic and some other WordPress businesses who work with the community, but aren't necessarily interested in the community or kind of want to be kind of that stick away because they don't want to be too involved in it. [00:31:12] So it, it, it is an interesting number, but also, we've got the English speaking people who are involved in the community, and then we've got the non-English speaking people who have communities in other parts of the world. So who knows, if I assume that number, you're thinking probably English speakers. [00:31:29] So if we think about the people who are non-English speakers and are very involved in WordPress, like you can see all the amazing work that Mary job is doing in Africa. And, The amazing word camp that was held would would camp Spain recently, and the community's just so passionate over there that they even produce a live late night a late night show pre recorded. [00:31:52] But. There, there are people really passionate about WordPress and the community. Oh WordPress the recent word camp in in Portugal, Portugal recently. Yeah, looking at just their their daily schedule of, of, of. Throughout the the two days it was all very community-based and the events I had on day two, where, where everybody getting together and doing things in person together the whole cop that, that whole event was around community and nurturing, connections with people. [00:32:22] And, and so there. You, it could be 3003 and a half thousand people who are really just in WordPress and, and know knowing more about WordPress news. But I would say that number would be. A lot bigger. Once we start thinking about non-English speakers. And I think that's an interesting area to explore that. [00:32:42] How do we kind of bring the, those communities together, the English non-English speakers? How do we bring those people? As just, people who interested in WordPress regardless of language, and that'd be an interesting one to explore the next year or two, as we get closer to exploring when, [00:33:00] when language and translation becomes the, the dominant focus of the program. [00:33:06] Matt: Piggyback off of this conversation of how many max amount of audience I might have the WB minute who has only been around for about six ish months. The biggest piece that it saw was big story that it, so I was Paul Lacey story about Gutenberg and how that Gutenberg has impacted himself, but also his, his opinion on how it impacted. [00:33:25] The community at one saw about 2200 2300 views to the, to the article and about almost 400 downloads to the podcast episode. And of course, anything that you bring up around Gutenberg and. It's impact on whatever mean Gutenberg's impact on whatever the community, the software performance is always going to get a look or view. [00:33:51] Are there any other hard hitting topics you think that might be that we haven't explored yet? By the time this episode goes out, it will be 20, 22 something this year you think, which is kind of interesting that folks should be paying attention to, or the next time.  [00:34:07] Rae: Oh, yeah. I'm interested to see how the acquisition train goes next year in terms of more acquisitions in the space. [00:34:16] And also you can't really get away from Gutenberg. That's going to be a big focus of next year. It really jumped out at me during the state of the word. When Matt was saying, we only have a handful of, of block themes and you'd like to see 3000 by the end of next year. So, interesting to see, I, I guess one of the interesting stories will be how, how blockchains become more commercialized as well. [00:34:39] Are we going to see. More, same authors once w 5.9 comes out are they going to feel ready to really explore that space? We're going to see a lot more of those themes on, on ThemeForest and other kinds of Marketplaces like that. Be interesting to say how that rolls out next year, because after that Matt was talking about, venturing into collaboration as the focus of the next phase of the roadmap for, for WordPress. [00:35:03] So are we going to see blocks wrap up next year or continue, kind of fall into the, into the following year? Yeah. And I, I think the, the other thing is also probably most seriously thinking about volunteers and contributors to WordPress, that was a big focus of the state of the word. [00:35:18] And, and with the lack of volunteers, thanks to you, the pandemic, that'd be an interesting thing to watch next year. Where are we? It's, it's mostly sponsored people who are contributing to WordPress. We, we see a lot, a lot of that. I was going to say, more of a drive to have more sponsored people working on the project, or, we're trying to recruit more people who, who aren't sponsored. [00:35:40] That'd be interesting thing to watch next year, as far as contributions go and how that increases or potentially decreases, I guess.  [00:35:49] Matt: Gutenberg everywhere blocks. Give me all the blocks. Ray, this has been a fantastic conversation. I really can't. Thank you enough. I could go on for another hour, but I'm sure you're sick and sick and tired of hearing me. [00:35:59] Where can folks [00:36:00] go to sign up to the newsletter and say, thanks online.  [00:36:03] Rae: Well, if you interested in joining the repository, it's it comes out every Friday, go to the repository.email to sign up. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Matt. I've been listening for years and yeah, it's, it's really an honor to, to  [00:36:18] Matt: be feeding. [00:36:19] No, I, I, I, it's a pleasure and an honor having you here as well. I also love the repository. Go sign up the show. The links will be in the show notes. Hey, if you want to support independent WordPress news or content number one, sign up for the repository. And if you are a big business and you've got some bucks, make sure you knock on raised door to say, Hey, I'd love to sponsor the news. [00:36:44] And then when you're done with her, she will send you my way to spend $79 to join the WP minute membership. Get your hand in the weekly WordPress news in our private discord interact with folks like Ray and others who produce the show@buymeacoffee.com slash Matt report. We'll see you in the next episode. ★ Support this podcast ★

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“Just when I thought I was out…they pull me back in” a famous line from Godfather Part III and a recurring theme I've noticed for those of who have used WordPress for a while. No matter how much we might moan about the shortcomings of WordPress, it's still pretty darn powerful. The core of WordPress is getting better, read: Gutenberg and Full Site Editing. Some sharp edges, yes, but software is software — it will iterate into something great. Maybe you left WordPress a few years ago because of Gutenberg, but I bet you second guessed yourself when that Netlify CMS lacked a user and permissions system, custom post types, and an easy way to install a contact form. Oh, and what about ecommerce? Yeah…well…what about it?! WooCommerce, still the sleeping giant, is about to get some lemon squeezed right in the eye. JR Farr returns to the Matt Report to talk about his latest product, Lemon Squeezy. A NOT Easy Digital Downloads alternative that's looking to take it's share of the e-commerce market. Learn more about the collective and the other products JR is a part of over at https://makelemonade.wtf/ Episode transcription [00:00:00] Matt: Welcome back to the Matt report podcast, special guest today, a man that I met God, I don't know if I had my notes in front of me. If I was a professional podcast or years ago at PressNomics spoiler alert, there was some stuff in the news about pages. And maybe we'll talk a little bit about that today, Jr. [00:00:17] Jr. Welcome to the program.  [00:00:20] JR: I know, man. Thanks for having me again. When I  [00:00:22] Matt: interviewed you last time, I think it was right on the heels of you selling your company and you're back building another company. You are the co-founder of a man. I was just trying to think of, of a great word. An Avengers team. [00:00:37] You certainly don't want to be like, I dunno, the guardians of the galaxy co-founder and CEO of make lemonade recently launched something called lemon squeezy that we'll talk about today. Yeah. How many, well, actually, let me, before we get in. Was it two years ago. I remember taking a phone call from you. [00:00:57] You were asking me about starting a podcast. You started a podcast. Oftentimes I would broadcast that podcast onto my big screen TV. And watch you drink old fashions talking about startups. What  [00:01:10] JR: happened? Yeah, no, that's a good question. So, like, So me and you go way back, right? Especially in the WordPress space. [00:01:17] Mojo was, was a good ride. Built a marketplace up, went and did the executive life at endurance for a long time, and then wanting to go on my own again. And so I got way into SAS customer attention because of what we were doing at Bluehost and things like that. Anyway, I was trying to get into that space and trying to find lightening in a bottle like I did with WordPress so quickly. [00:01:40] Right. It's so fast. It's like, oh yeah, I can do this again. And starting a company again is hard. And so, we tried to get into that space and it just kind of fell flat. And so yeah, I did a podcast for it around it, and we broke down a lot of different SAS companies, onboarding, offboarding, things like that. [00:01:56] But yeah, it was a good, it was fun though. I felt like I learned a lot, especially. Podcasting and being able to articulate things with words right. A lot better. So yeah, it was a great, it was a great production. Yeah. Thanks man. It was actually believe it or not. It was in my basement. Oh, wow. There you go. [00:02:11] Yeah. Yeah.  [00:02:12] Matt: Awesome. What's the. In that world, let's say the SAS world that you learned. I mean, you came from WordPress through WordPress, into endurance, arguably the largest corporation that touches, well, I don't know if it's the largest, but a large corporation that touches WordPress. Then you go in and try to do like, what many of us might listen to this week in startups, tech crunch. [00:02:34] And we're like, Hey SAS, world. What's the biggest, what's the biggest difference that you found from that world versus the WordPress world?  [00:02:44] JR: I mean, obviously the community is way different, right? Cause because there's so many different sounds. So you got, you got enterprise, mid market, small market SMBs got bootstrap, versus most people in the WordPress space are bootstrap. [00:02:54] So that was like, everyone was on like some of a playing field back in the day. I would say the [00:03:00] end of where I come from, everything has been bootstrapped, so I, I don't get me wrong. I definitely had opportunities. I still do to, to, to go raise like most of us, I guess, but I just it's in my roots, right. To like, just build it and self-fund it and grow it. [00:03:14] And so I would say that's like a big thing, like when you're getting into that space, Man, you gotta, you going up some big boys that have a lot of funding, even if they are in the SMB or mid-market or enterprise, right? Like you kind of get there's just, the playing field is so much bigger,  [00:03:28] Matt: so it might be, this might be a softball question. [00:03:31] I mean, I kinda know what it is cause I know that you're going to have a bias question, especially now that you've launched a lemon squeezy and a side note. It's not just an easy digital download rev. Okay. Yeah, we've got a lot more that we're going to cover about lemon squeezy in a moment, but I've been having a lot of folks on my podcast recently in the no-code space, I've been fascinated with the no code space, no comes low-code space. [00:03:53] For me it sort of like brings that same energy back when I first discovered not even WordPress, but Drupal when I could do things with Drupal as like a non-developer with CCK and views. And we're talking almost 20 years ago being like, wow, I can code this. Knowing this PHP thing. It's interesting that, Well, here's the question. [00:04:14] What if you were to start, and I know this is, this is the softball moment. If you were to start a little bit more of a technical company today, maybe not WordPress, would you start with a WordPress framework or would you combine a couple of no-code apps that you really love to do something else?  [00:04:29] JR: Well, I think luckily for me, like the teams that I have along the rides with me, they're technical enough that I don't have to, but I definitely think I would. [00:04:39] I honestly would maybe pick something else. I built mojo on WordPress back then, and that was before WooCommerce and before, easy to download. So like it was all custom and just the limitations sometimes in, around the database and queries and stuff. It's, it's not built for that. So. Maybe it's a marketing site it's different, but when it comes to a full blown app, I just think there's way better options out  [00:05:02] there. [00:05:03] Matt: Yeah. So there, there are. So it just seems like there's a no-code app coming online every single day to try to like compete against air table and Google sheets and collide in bubble. Right. And I'm looking at it. Like I was looking at Pais builders rising three years ago in the WordPress space. I'm just like, damn man, you all going to survive this? [00:05:21] Or there's this like, The, survival of the fittest and that's just the market plays out. Yup. Yup. How did you get, so the, the parent company make lemonade, how did you form this team? Because I've had four out of five of you on my podcast.  [00:05:40] JR: So yeah, the founding team there, they're the co-founders, there's four of us and it was. [00:05:45] There was a, quite a bit of work. It was, it was probably at least a year and a half in the making of just chatting and what, what are you working on? What, what are you building and what do you want to do? And so real quick, just talking about, let me just name the, if people don't know who we are. [00:05:58] So make lemonade was the [00:06:00] idea of it is when we were all talking before we were kind of in the thick of 2020, where it was just. Shit, right. It was just a lot of sour lemons kind of getting thrown out everyone. Right. All of us were getting hit with this. And so that's kind of where it was born. It was like, well, let's take these lemons and let's make some lemonade, and so we kind of, like you said, formed this quartet or a vendor group, or we call it a collective, which is Orman Clark. Yeah. It was known for donkey was also the, kind of the guy that set the tone on theme forest years ago. And then Jason's jeweler theme garden, press 75. And Gilbert who was a nivo slider for the OGs and spin up WP delicious brains and myself. [00:06:42] So yeah, we kind of all came together and we kind of started to really get excited about this, make lemonade idea. Let's bring all of our brands together. Let's bring all of our things we have together, and let's really see if we can build a collective and launch some pretty kick ass products. And the first one is the biggest one that we're really, I guess, leaning most of our resources into is, is limits. [00:07:03] Matt: Talk to me about how you kept these conversations going. I think that's one of the most unique things about WordPress is you have communities, like, let's say post post status and stuff like that. But I think that it goes even beyond that, where you see folks at a word camp, you see what they're doing in our space and you just it's so easy to reach out. [00:07:21] Was it like that for you? Or are you guys all in like a mastermind and connected in some other way? Like who sparked the first conversation?  [00:07:27] JR: It was actually so Jason and Orman and Chris Malter were actually having conversations as well. And then Chris Malter and Jason were actually building a product called rivet, which was a therefore, a outside of WordPress as well. [00:07:41] Kind of, it was, you could take your YouTube channel and build a site from it. I don't know if you guys ever saw that, but it's really cool. And I actually ping them and said, Hey guys, what are you doing with this? Like, can I help in any way? It looks like. Maybe I could help with the marketing side, stuff like that. [00:07:54] And so that kind of like kicked off a conversation and an Orman got back involved and then it was actually, the four of us were chatting and then eventually Gilbert kinda got brought up and that's kinda how we kicked things off. But yeah, like it's funny because it goes back to where, I mean, Jason and I, we met similar to you. [00:08:11] I mean, how me and you did, which was years ago at a conference. I think it was the first PressNomics, which was forever ago. And so, yeah, we've just, it's all about relationships, right. And I would say that I really pushed hard to get everybody, like, I think that's one of my strengths is like being a connector and like making, getting, allowing things to connect and, and kind of glued together. [00:08:34] And I would, I like to think that I really helped be influential in getting us all to finally do what we're going to do. Even bringing Gilbert over full-time he was at delicious brains building. They just launched spin up WP. So. We had to convince him to come over. And so that wasn't some easy task, right. [00:08:51] He was happy with where he was at and, but it's, it's, it's worked out and I think we've got a pretty solid team. We've actually brought in a [00:09:00] few more makers into the collective which I can briefly mention, which is Mike McAllister, James Kemp, Patrick Posner. And there's a few guys from the old Moto team that are actually helping with us too. [00:09:12] So got a nice little squad. That's working on stuff together.  [00:09:18] Matt: Lemon squeezy. The, the H one is sell digital products. That easy-peasy way e-commerce space, digital download space, massive untapped, I think in the WordPress world. But before we talk about that, I want to talk about all of these products that are listed on the make lemonade.wtf. [00:09:37] That's the URL. If you're listening to this, make lemonade.wtf, it'll be in the show notes. I'm on I'm on the webpage right now, iconic app. I remember watching that launch and thinking that's pretty awesome. Positive notes, dunked, premium pixels, kick link, a whole bunch of stuff. And this new digital S download product. [00:09:56] How do you keep focus? Is that the magic of a collective, like everyone gets their own little, territory to cover, break that down for me.  [00:10:04] JR: Yeah. So it ebbs and flows, right? So there's, I mean, to be fair, some of these products were existing. So dunked obviously was Orman's he brought that into the collective. [00:10:12] And so as we grow that, as a team that's, that kind of works its way into the collective iconic was new. But to be totally honest right  [00:10:20] Matt: now,  [00:10:23] JR: The focus thing has been brought up. It's it's, it's been a subjective. Like what do we do? Let's be realistic. We are bootstrapped. There's only so many of us are we being silly by pulling ourselves to sin across everything. [00:10:36] And so, we continue to maintain the products that we have launched. So dunked and iconic and things, but right now the focus is a hundred percent limits with you for the team  [00:10:44] Matt: I interviewed. Well, before I get there, let me ask you this question on the collective. Is there a way, like when you look at that and somebody's like, Hey man, I would love to be part of this team is like the application process. [00:10:58] Is your resume, an existing product you've already built and you bring that to the collective to show it off. And how do I get my podcast in there? No, I'm just kidding. How do I like when you bring it there? Like, is that the process, is that how you look for a new member of the collective?  [00:11:13] JR: So it's actually, I take a really good question. [00:11:15] I didn't even think about that before we came on, but that is a lot of it. I mean, we do have some. I've kind of put together how people come into the collective. There, there is a process to it. That's not the only way. So obviously if your skillset is what kind of we're looking for at the moment, we'll bring in there's different ways that we can kind of bring you in the collective where you can to participate in all the products with us, as well as if you have your own product, then that gets the power of the collective, right? [00:11:42] Like, I mean, look at premium pixel, for example, that's a really old brand. I mean, as you can, there's a sh there's tons of people on an email list, right. That just get featured into the rest of our products. But like iconic app was very similar. That's James McDonald. Who's you don't know him. He's an amazing icon [00:12:00] design. [00:12:01] And he wanted to do an icon set. And so the team kind of got together with him and he did all the icons and then we built everything else. And so, and it leverages lemon squeezy to sell it. So that was like a really, really cool way to bring someone in, to work on just an individual product with us. And then the other team members like Mike and James and Patrick, they're helping us limit squeezy, but they're also gonna get the benefit of the rest of the collective too. [00:12:24] So. It's it, it can go either way. It just really depends on the person. Yeah.  [00:12:31] Matt: I interviewed Matt Mullenweg earlier this year. And I think that, well, maybe not, it might not be obvious to everyone and maybe some of you out there are thinking, well, we've already got woo commerce. We don't need anything else who could survive an e-commerce play in this space up against the giant that is Rue commerce and alternatives like Shopify. [00:12:54] I know that. And I am by no means trying to give you a veteran and proven CEO slash entrepreneur, any advice, but I know that it's either going to take a boatload of money to compete or just a bad-ass product that is just hitting it on all cylinders. I think this is, this is not really a good question. [00:13:13] This is me just like pontificating this on a soap box. Like I think this is gonna be a bad-ass product. I think this is going to be the home run side of it. S inside my gut says, you probably feel the same way, because if you just execute on an amazing product, you can compete and you can win. Look at all the foreign plugins we have. [00:13:33] Right, right, right. Look at all of the similar stuff we have that's out there. This is, just because the giants out there doesn't mean you shouldn't build it. Your thoughts.  [00:13:43] JR: Yeah, no, I it's a really good, and obviously we've got to be realistic, right? Like we are going up against some 800 pound gorillas. [00:13:49] Which is fine. I've done it before. But I think where lemon squeezy was different, is it is, it is a SAS first. Right. So we, we kind of have this unique ability to package in a lot of features that as much as I love WordPress, like, you do have to put together like a decent amount of plugins sometimes for something to work that costs money, that constant that's maintenance, that's conflicts, that's, maybe opening yourself up to some security issues depending on what kind of plugins you're getting. [00:14:19] If it's not from a reliable source. So. I think that's a unique thing that we do have. And then I think the team that's building the lemon squeezy plugin, right. Even though it's V1 and it's not extremely powerful at the moment, but it gives you all the power lemon squeezy from day one, which I think is super cool. [00:14:37] It's a totally different way of thinking about building it. And we can just totally, supercharge your WordPress site with lemon squeezy. So I think we're coming at it from a different angle. Which is exciting for me and it doesn't kind of pin us into one thing. But you're right. I mean, we're going to have to just iterate fast and quickly on this thing. [00:14:57] So, when we first came out, it's interesting, now that we're getting in the [00:15:00] WordPress space, when we first came out, it was looked at us, it will be looked at like a, like a Gumroad alternative. Right. It was just, that was kind of the feature set, but we're releasing some pretty big things around our website. [00:15:11] And so that's kind of positioning us into a different market, the WordPress space. Now we're getting positioned in there against easel downloads. But I will say one last thing about digital products is all of us come from that space. And it's, it's complicated. Yes, there's WooCommerce, but it's primarily, it's meant for physical stuff. [00:15:27] It does do digital stuff, but there's a lot to think about, right? Like security and how those files are delivered and software verges. I mean, even just the, the auto updates and. You know how you deliver the license keys. Like there's a lot of stuff to think about. And then that ties way into support. How do you support the product? [00:15:47] And so I think we've got a good, like view, a very good focus view on like how to tackle.  [00:15:53] Matt: How do you manage, who gets to say, who gets the say in which features to add into a product like this? Because the Gumroad alternative, they easy digital downloads, alternative, the lightweight version of WooCommerce. [00:16:08] Again, as somebody who hasn't had the same product successes, you, but have been in companies that have had products assess, I don't mind those comparisons because it's just easy for customers to understand, but then there's like that 20%. Month after month or a year, quarter after quarter, you're like, okay, but we still need to keep edging our way to a differentiator, a different value prop. [00:16:30] So who gets this, who gets to lead that with this product?  [00:16:36] JR: Man? That's a good question. So right now I think we've done a decent job with the four of us of allowing us to. Really give our say, I think when it comes down to like, if, so, let's just talk about design first for a second. Like how it looks that's we all know that that's Orman Clark. [00:16:51] I mean, the guy. Seriously brilliant when it comes to sign. So we're only going to push it so far. And then I think it's pretty, like, it's just like unwritten code that like Orman's going to make that decision, but then I think when it comes to like marketing and positioning, I think a lot of people look at me for that, and just, how do we position this business and this product, or. [00:17:10] And so I think it's just, it really falls in more of a skillset, right. Gilbert's CTO when it comes to anything technical related in the product, Gilbert's probably going to have the final say in that. And so, yeah, so that's kinda how we've handled it so far.  [00:17:23] Matt: Yeah. When I, when I did talk to Matt as part of what I was getting at before is I told him that I still think woo commerce is even though it is the giant, it's still a sleeping giant. [00:17:35] Like I don't feel, I don't feel like automatic has really started to tap the potential of, I agree how flexible WooCommerce is going to be. And I think that, you, you said before, this is a SAS first product. We're launching this. I, these are my words, not exactly yours, but we're launching SAS because we can just control it a whole heck of a lot easier than if it was just a pure plugin. [00:17:57] There's was a pure plugin. We get to do the security patches, [00:18:00] the updates, the UI updates, people start falling off. They haven't updated. It's a nightmare when you're trying to make a cohesive experience. And I think no code. Heck even Jetpack is and tools like yours. Aren't going to condition the users over time, where once we really wanted our plugin and own it and have it in our WordPress site to be like ass, screw it, just make it work. [00:18:27] Like it's all a plugin. And I just want access, just give it to me because I think we're all just fed up with it, to that up until this point. I don't know if that's good or bad for the longterm success of WordPress, because that's what us. But your  [00:18:40] JR: thoughts? Well, this is so when I first sat down with the guys and we started talking about lemon squeezy, and this is what we always go back to. [00:18:46] This is like, if this is the punchline, so, and this is going to sound kind of silly, but this is how I literally described to the team. And this is what we, we say. Say, we say, whenever we start talking about the product, we're like space. Space mountain, which sounds weird. Right? So that ride in Disneyland. [00:19:03] So if you were to go to that ride to picture it in your head, you, you walk up, you see the entrance and everything, and you're walking through it. It's really a whole experience from the moment you see it and you walk through it, right? It's all dark. And then you go through the ride and it's pitch black and there's lights, and there's all kinds of things, but you can feel it as you're going through it. [00:19:18] Right. But you don't really know how this is all happening, but think about it for a second. If everybody flipped the light. That'd be rods and wires and it, probably bolts and dust and everything looking at right. And that's kind of the experience today still after all these years, right? It's like, get your hosting, get your domain name, get your plugins, get your you're like putting together all these things with the lights on. [00:19:41] And so in our mind is like easy peasy, lemon, squeezy. Let's just fast forward this thing a little bit and create a space, mountain experience where you just hop on the ride and you're just enjoying the experience. And you're just, you're just there to have fun and have a good time, or you're just there to make money or you're just there to sell this product or this widget or whatever it is you don't have to think. [00:20:00] And so that's kind of how. Are building the product. So I will say from a feature standpoint, we've got a long way to go, right? Like right now you can get on there, you can sell anything, subscriptions memberships. We're also the merchant of record. So you don't even have to worry about setting up payment processors or anything like that. [00:20:17] It's all taken care of. And so I think as we add more features like email marketing and the builder. Themes and stuff like that. I think people are going to really start to be like, oh, wow. Like this is just all here with a click of a button. So  [00:20:31] Matt: you don't have to comment on my crazy conspiracy theory, but I'll ask it and we can cut this guy, a segment out of the show if you want. [00:20:41] I really think. Th this concept the space mountain rides, fantastic metaphor for all of this stuff is also how jet pack is attempting to win in the long run. And I'm of the mindset that I don't know, two years from now, you'll go [00:21:00] to wordpress.org and it'll say, download WordPress with Jeff. [00:21:05] Download free WordPress open source version of WordPress, whatever sounds uglier for you to say, I don't want that. I want this because this is the best way to experience WordPress's with Japan. And I think that that's the, the model that, that Jetpack will ultimately win with as much as we all are like, oh, not on our lawn, this thing here, but I think that that is how WordPress wins. [00:21:32] Are automatic wins in that space. Thoughts on, on that WordPress experience is jet pack in the front row seat for a wind like that.  [00:21:42] JR: Oh man, I have so many thoughts. I mean, I'll say, I'll say a couple of things on it. It's really interesting to think about that from Matt's perspective because Matt always said he wants to get to 50% of the internet uses work. [00:21:58] But I don't know what he's thought of after that. I don't know what happens when he hits that goal. Right? Is he. Does does there's IPO's there's, then what happens like that? What starts to take shape for this business? And so I think me, and you've always seen it from afar, right? You, you look at the way, they kind of their copies changing on jet pack and the way they kind of position the way it should feel like the, like you said, it, like, this is the way you should experience WordPress. [00:22:24] I actually think they say it on the jetpacks website. So I think we've always thought that was going to happen. It's just when and if, and, and I don't know if. If it's going to be triggered more around what happens with Matt and automatic, right. With the IPO or when it hits the 50%, or is he waiting for something like that for, in order to have to do it at that time? [00:22:47] Yeah.  [00:22:48] Matt: A friend of the show, I don't know if you know him, Jordan gall, he started cart hook, and now he's on onto another e-commerce product called rally.io, which is a. I hope I'm getting this right. It's either, either says it's a decoupled or headless e-commerce experience. Okay. He was building a product. [00:23:08] I think it started off as cart abandonment or cart recovery. Hence the cart hook name, built it in Shopify as playground and eventually. What I'll say is crushed by Shopify. He's not a happy camper. Really? Yeah. He's been a lot more vocal about it. There's a great business insider article, which I'll try to remember to link up to it here in the show notes. [00:23:30] And I'm going to have him on the show actually next week to kind of talk about a little bit of that stuff, your thoughts on playing in somebody else's playground. Is that something that ever comes up or you're like, do you look at this as it's? Okay. This is why we're building it as. We start with WordPress. [00:23:44] We build up there, we springboard to full on just come to our website signup.  [00:23:50] JR: Exactly. And even right now, I mean, even before we came into WordPress, right. Lemon squeezy has been live. It's been launched. We have paying customers that are just coming to us from their own ways. [00:24:00] Right. Not WordPress. So we already have that going. [00:24:03] I look at WordPress is like our biggest integration, right. Or biggest extension. And it's been interesting because ever since we've launched the API, we have like, is it stamp, stamp MADEC is that the shoot? I think it's the CMS. There's other people. Are you building plugins around other platforms? So, obviously we've been talking about maybe an integration with or the Shopify has people have wanted to do Shopify plugins for lemon squeezy. [00:24:30] So I think we'll continue down this path. Just as a way for distribution, that's the way I'm looking at it. Not so much a risk to the platform. Cause right now we're like you said, it's SAS and we can kind of control our destiny, which is  [00:24:42] Matt: nice. Just too. Recheck myself, dear listener, it's rally on.com, not rally.io, rally.io, creator coin economy. [00:24:50] A rally on.com is Jordan's next venture. You'll hear him probably coming up on the next episode. Cool. The, the, the future for a WordPress in full site editing. I mean, is this anything that. It comes up on your on your calls at all with the team. Like when you talk about the space mountain ride, like, is this, does this matter to you like full site editing, Gutenberg, Ella mentor, and like this massive whirlwind of stuff happening? [00:25:25] Does it matter to you or  [00:25:26] JR: not? Not so much. Yes. Yes it does. I think that, cause I think the approach we want to take. And this is what I mentioned about the plugin, right? Lemon squeezies plugin today, you can connect your store and then you, you, you really experienced lemon squeezy over lemon squeezy, but then you use your WordPress website to kind of display it, right? [00:25:44] So it's not. We would like to maybe look at bringing some more stuff. So we're not having to force people to come over to us. Right. If they don't want to. And I think that's how we're thinking about it is how do we, do we look at some lemon squeezy powered themes? Probably not. There's an element or ad-ons we've discussed. [00:26:01] So yeah, we're absolutely thinking about how do we make it, but it's more in the sense of like that customer, right? Like, What are they experiencing and how do we make this nice for them? Right. Rather than forcing them to come to lemon squeezy, if they don't want to, that's really how we think about it. [00:26:15] But I think in terms of the plugin to start, I think we're gonna focus more on features that people really want to leverage, like restrict content has. The really exciting one is migration tools for the other popular providers. Those are the things that we're working on now. And then from there, we'll kind of see what the, what people want. [00:26:35] So  [00:26:36] Matt: I don't have any segments on the show, but if I did have one, it might be like, read mean WP Tavern comments, like this read mean tweets like celebrities. Yeah. When this was announced and launched, which was what? Two days ago, right? The 10th.  [00:26:50] JR: Yeah, the plugin. Yeah.  [00:26:51] Matt: How was the reaction good or bad, otherwise, anything surprised you both positively negatively that you'd like to talk about that you saw from [00:27:00] Twitter comments or anything like that? [00:27:02] JR: So it's, it's, it's interesting, right? Because for the most part, I would say it's 99% excitement. Everyone's super excited. Mostly probably because the team, I think they see the team, they're like, oh wow. I had no idea that this is who's behind this. So that's been really cool. And, but there definitely is like coming back into the WordPress space after being here for so long. [00:27:23] And I did take a break for a while coming back into it. I did forget, like, there's definitely people that are. If they don't know us, so they don't know where we come from. Right. There's definitely been like. Well, what is this? And who are these guys and who did, how, how could they possibly think they could do this? [00:27:40] And so there's been a few of those and I just kind of laugh it off, but I think we'll eventually, hopefully win them over. But if not, there's always a Pepsi and a Coke and you know what I mean? And I don't mind being a Pepsi, like if, if there's already a Coke, I have no problem with that. [00:27:54] And so we're just giving people options. So  [00:27:56] Matt: lemon, squeezy.com. I'm looking at the pricing starts at $9 a month. No free.  [00:28:02] JR: Yeah. Yeah. And I can talk about that. Yeah. So we, so we did, we did have a free plan. We did the transaction model where you would pay high transaction fees on a free plan. And it, we had, oh man, like tens of thousands of people literally using the platform. [00:28:18] It was a lot. And so we just, and it's great, but like, you need a ton of volume for that model to really play itself out and time. And so being bootstrapped, it's like, let's just focus on building a product that people want to pay for. Let's make everything SAS. And there was, we had to kind of roll back and there was, there's been a lot of angry people about that. [00:28:39] And so we're trying to find the best pricing. And so this is what's working at the moment. I think, as we add new features, maybe maybe prices go up maybe, and there's a new plan that gets introduced. I don't know. But we're the right now, I think we've found a good price that, because what we did actually is we looked at. [00:28:55] We did look at, if I was going to do a digital download store or sell something digital using WooCommerce or easy digital downloads, we wanted to make lemon squeezy. So not for a race to the bottom, but just, we were trying to be realistic with the features that we do offer right at the moment. And so, so that's kind of where we're settling. [00:29:14] It seems to be working on, like I said, outside of WordPress, we've had plenty of sign-ups and so we're doing well, but I'm really excited to see this get into the WordPress ecosystem and just, just offer something fresh and new and that's that wasn't built, Forever ago. So yeah,  [00:29:32] Matt: $9 a month is still pretty darn affordable. [00:29:35] It's only 90 bucks for the year, sands a transaction fee for selling, which you're going to get no matter where you go. Unless you only accepted check by mail, which you're still going to be paying a fee on that too. Did you find, and again, like with with the prefix, that $9 is still pretty, pretty affordable, did you find a better. [00:29:54] More qualified type of customer from moving away from free. It's always like the most demanding [00:30:00] customers want things for free. And then as soon as they start to pay them, they're a little bit better.  [00:30:04] JR: Yeah. Like, yeah, exactly. And our support totally changed too. Like it was actually just, like a lot of bottom feeding, right. [00:30:11] Kind of things going on. And the support is actually way higher now, but it's really good. Like questions, like people are in a trial or they have questions about this or that, or we're getting way more feedback on the product and like, well, if you guys had this, I would sign up or, you know what I mean? [00:30:26] Like. Yeah, you're right. It's attracted the right people. And then we're, you know what I mean? Like we're, it's like the Henry Ford thing, right? It's like, if I listen to my customer, just build a faster horse, but now I feel like we're listening to the customers that are really willing to pay and they are paying, and it's cool to see. [00:30:42] Yeah, man.  [00:30:42] Matt: I mean, you say that there's not a lot of features or, you feel like you might have not have as many features as the rest. It's. I mean, what you look like, you get a nice feature set here.  [00:30:50] JR: Well, yeah, so I guess so let me actually rephrase that. That's a good. From a, from an e-commerce perspective, selling things. [00:30:57] We, I think we're, we're really good. We do a ton of stuff. And especially for someone that's just like, doesn't want to have to worry about anything with the merchant of record. I think it's like super slick to sign up for lemon squeezy and just, you can just start selling where we're really gonna double down on next. [00:31:14] The editing publishing and editing experience where you can actually have your own storefront and website with themes, Orman Clark and Jason and Mike, they're all going to have some pretty amazing themes that you can be able to use this lemon squeezy. And then Gilbert's been working on a full blown, like e-commerce email marketing e-commerce solution. [00:31:32] So think about filtering and segmentation around your user base. Right? Whether they're. Coming in our landing page subscribing to a newsletter, or if they've purchased a product or multiple products where you're going to be able to filter a segment, send emails, take actions, depending on who they are, what they are, what they bought, so that's the kind of stuff that I think we're moving into next, but you're right from a e-commerce perspective, I think that, you can do pretty much everything except for selling online course at the moment. [00:32:01] Yeah, that's the only real feature left,  [00:32:03] Matt: Semi hot seat question. The usual suspects aside in the software licensing key plugin space software licensing. I don't really see that come up on other e-commerce platforms. So prominently is this the easiest way to kind of break into. What I'll say is the available customer base of WordPress. [00:32:27] JR: Oh, that's funny.  [00:32:28] Matt: Really it could be that I don't, I don't, I'm not looking for software licensing on other platforms, but maybe other platforms are doing it and I just don't see it. I just see this as a very WordPress thing. Ah, you know what? I didn't  [00:32:40] JR: even think about it that way. I think, you know why it's maybe so important to us? [00:32:43] Cause maybe where we come. Maybe, because we are so heavy from the WordPress space. It's like what we're used to, but I will say like people that sell, tailwind components and things like that, they want to, they want to have licensing stuff done. So it's, it's applicable other places, but it's funny you [00:33:00] say it that way, because I guess it could look like. [00:33:02] I think a lot of it was just influenced where we came from. Yeah.  [00:33:05] Matt: So who man, a lemon squeezy.com. Check it out, starting at nine bucks a month. I mean, it looks pretty fantastic to me. Any, I mean, I was about to say any black Friday deals, but how cheaper, cheaper could you get for nine bucks?  [00:33:17] JR: Yeah, I think we're going to avoid it. [00:33:19] Actually. I think we're going to try to, I don't know. Not do that. See how it goes. Cool, man. But  [00:33:26] Matt: yeah. Jr. Far, anything else that you'd like to leave the audience with anywhere they should go to? Oh,  [00:33:33] JR: man. Just, yeah, I really appreciate you bringing them mat. I try to listen to your show and everything that you do. [00:33:40] And I think you're, you're, you're definitely the best at this. So, it's exciting to to, to have to be back in the WordPress space and Be with our community again, and maybe went over a few new hearts that don't know us yet. So, but now thanks again, man. And Yeah, definitely follow along. [00:33:56] Matt: Absolutely everybody else. Everybody listening, check out lemon, squeezy.com, check out everything Jr. And his team are doing. If you want your weekly dose of WordPress news in five minutes or less, go to the WP minute.com. Join the private discord $79 for the year. You get to get your hand in the weekly WordPress news. [00:34:14] Get shout outs, help shape the news part of the team. Hashtag link squad. You know who you are. All right. We'll catch you in the next episode. ★ Support this podcast ★

It's another Potluck! In this episode, Scott and Wes answer your questions about privacy policies, coding for kids, MongaDB hosting, cloud backups, system design, #NoMoreFoo, and much more! Prismic - Sponsor Prismic is a Headless CMS that makes it easy to build website pages as a set of components. Break pages into sections of components using React, Vue, or whatever you like. Make corresponding Slices in Prismic. Start building pages dynamically in minutes. Get started at prismic.io/syntax. Sentry - Sponsor If you want to know what's happening with your code, track errors and monitor performance with Sentry. Sentry's Application Monitoring platform helps developers see performance issues, fix errors faster, and optimize their code health. Cut your time on error resolution from hours to minutes. It works with any language and integrates with dozens of other services. Syntax listeners new to Sentry can get two months for free by visiting Sentry.io and using the coupon code TASTYTREAT during sign up. Cloudinary - Sponsor Cloudinary is the best way to manage images and videos in the cloud. Edit and transform for any use case, from performance to personalization, using Cloudinary's APIs, SDKs, widgets, and integrations. Show Notes 04:49 - Ben Lamers: Heyo Scott and Wes! I am building a web app currently with my brother, and I was wondering when we get to launch it how do you go about correctly writing/adding Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. I'm assuming this may be quite different depending on the platform so maybe general resources or tips for this. Thanks! 06:45 - Fumbles O'Brian: Do you have any recommendations for teaching young children how to code? I have a 5-year-old niece in kindergarten who is absolutely fascinated watching me work, and I'd like to start teaching her basic concepts when she's able to read/write better. For example, she loves watching me make UI changes in React, it blows her mind that changing letters on one screen changes what a website looks like. 11:01 - Kenny: Gentlemen! Love this show and the content you put out. It keeps me occupied during my 5 and 6 mile runs. Thank you both for working so hard to keep it active, I know it takes a lot of work. I'm curious what you think about hosting your own MongoDB server? I'm relatively new to Mongo but want to start working with it for smaller projects. I've used MySQL for a decade, hosted online with shared hosting. Worked well for my relational db needs. Should I host my own Mongo when I'm ready for production, or pay the reasonable costs for something like Linode or maybe even Atlas? I have experience in Linux (enough to get by) and have my own virtualization cluster that I can spin up a server in seconds, along with an enterprise level firewall for managing traffic to and from. I actually just spun up a docker server this week and have a Mongo container running on it, though it's not accessible outside my network. This is purely for my development environments. Despite the firewall, my concern is security. Is it worth paying for a trusted solution like Linode, or should I put a little time in locking down my own Mongo container for my own use? Thank you both! Keep up the great work. 14:42 - Mike: Not a question but more of a rant… It's 2021, almost 2022, can we all stop using ‘foo' and ‘bar' and ‘baz' when teaching a programming concept? I applaud both of you because I don't recall seeing any of your content ever using such atrocious terms, however, I'm sad to see other prominent educators in the web development community use these terms from time to time. I feel like there are so many better examples that we could use to explain a concept and the use of ‘foo' is just confusing to beginners. That's all, just wanted to get that off my chest. Thanks for a wonderful podcast! #nomorefoo 18:53 - Amir: Hey Wes and Scott, thank you for your awesome podcast. What are the best cities in Canada and USA to get (more quantity, highest-paying) developer jobs? 23:44 - LW: Hi guys, I am finally starting to get into GraphQL and I don't get it. Specifically I am working to convert an existing REST API to GraphQL. This seems really tough and there is not much guidance out there on how to do it. The main part I am unsure of is how to write resolvers. If I use the existing query then GraphQL just seems like an over-engineered filter method. If I write an individual resolver for each column in the table - that's gonna be 100s of resolvers and super annoying to write. Have either of you ever moved something from REST to GraphQL? And, if so, how did you handle this? 27:57 - Dan: How does someone learn and actually practice using these system design topics like load balancing, caching, and database sharding. I have never had the need to use some of these things in my day-to-day work, but recently been interviewing and in the system design portion of the interview I feel a little lost. I've read about these topics and watched videos but haven't really seen how to implement these things. Any good resource recommendations? 31:57 - Matt: How do you know if you can trust an NPM package, from an unknown developer, that does not have many GitHub stars and has relatively few downloads? (The repo that made me ask this question is https://github.com/Wondermarin/react-color-palette). NPM audit automatically runs when you install a package, do any of you ever use additional security checks? 38:32 - Yosef: Hi I'm a beginner front-end developer and I heard you saying that being able to copy prototypes is a valuable skill, so I found some Figma free template and I copied them, the question is can I put them in my portfolio or deploy them? 40:00 - Nick: Hey dudes! I picked up a freelance project to make a brochure-style website and found myself having trouble to decide on what tools to pick for this site. I wanted to ask you and get your take, what tools/tech would you use to build a brochure site? By this, I mean the site should have mainly company information that is ideally editable by the stakeholders and has a contact form. Thanks! 44:22 - Casey: Hi Scooter and Wild Wes! Why do I feel so dirty when I'm forced to use negative values in CSS? 45:45 - Gnommer: Do you use some cloud sync service to backup your directory with projects? I mean OneDrive, Dropbox etc. I tried to use it alongside with Git, and it just messed my files so badly. On the other side I feel very uncomfortable without any backup apart from Github. BTW, according to last Potluck: polish ‘ł/Ł' is pronounced like ‘w' in ‘what a sick podcast you have'. Best from Poland ;) Links https://www.ryzerobotics.com/tello https://www.mongodb.com/cloud/atlas https://snyk.io/ https://deno.land/ https://kit.svelte.dev/ https://astro.build/ https://www.gatsbyjs.com/ https://www.dropbox.com/ https://www.backblaze.com/ https://www.synology.com/ https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201250 ××× SIIIIICK ××× PIIIICKS ××× Scott: The Way Down Wes: Wooster Shortcut Shameless Plugs Scott: Modern GraphQL with Prisma - Sign up for the year and save 25%! Wes: All Courses - Use the coupon code ‘Syntax' for $10 off! Tweet us your tasty treats! Scott's Instagram LevelUpTutorials Instagram Wes' Instagram Wes' Twitter Wes' Facebook Scott's Twitter Make sure to include @SyntaxFM in your tweets

The roundtable interview with Matt and Caleb Maddix and a small group of people who are trying to change the world. Enjoy part three of this special 4 part episode series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to The Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you've been enjoying this series so far. This is The Roundtable of World Changers, a conversation I had with Matt and Caleb Maddix, and a whole bunch of young entrepreneurs, who are literally out there trying to change the world. This is part three of a four part episode, because the conversation went for three or four hours. And so, this episode's also going to be about 40 minutes long, and it's the next set of questions they asked me. And if you've listened to the last two, you know that these guys ask a lot of questions, in a lot of different directions, and angles, and went all over the place. And I think this time is probably 01:00 or 02:00 in the morning. And so, the questions started going from everywhere, from business, to relationships, to families, and a whole bunch more. So I hope you enjoy this next episode. Here's some of the bullet points of things you're going to learn about. We talked about the 10 commandments of marketing. I talked about my very first mentor, and a thing he taught me, not just to make money in the short term, but how to build a business that now has lasted me for almost two decades. I talk about one of my friends and mentors, Daegen Smith and something that he taught me. It was so simple, yet it's been the key to help me get thousands of people a day to join my email list. We talked about leadership, delegation, scheduling. We talk about, as you're building a team, understanding people's unique abilities. Talked about how much time you spend thinking about the future. Talked about proximity with billionaires. We also talked about how to balance your business and married life, so you can be a good husband and a good father, which is something that I stress about all the time. We talked about a principle that I learned from Stacey and Paul Martino, that has been one of the most powerful things I've learned, which is called demand-relationship. I talk about that. We talk about some relationship tricks, for those who are either married or getting married. Some of the newlyweds, and the engaged couples, were asking some questions about that. Hopefully I don't get in trouble for sharing some of my tricks. We talked about knowing what your values are, and your priorities. Talked about being vulnerable, and being honest, versus staying positive through challenges. We talked about some of the biggest principles and things I learned from Tony Robbins, including how to change your state whenever you need to. And we talked about my 12 year relationship with Tony Robbins, and all the things behind that. We talked about... I don't want to spoil any more. You guys, this is a fun interview. And hopefully, you've been enjoying these so far. So with that said, we're going to cut to the theme song. When we come back, we're going to take you guys immediately back into this conversation. This is, again, The Roundtable of World Changers, part three of four. Matt Maddix: Let's say there was a Russell Brunson 10 commandments. You know how God had one. Russell: Thou shall build a list. Matt: Yeah. How high is this in the 10 commandments? Russell: My first mentor, Mark… Matt: And what would be some of the Russell Brunson... Let's come up with some of them. Like, "Thou shalt..." Russell: We need some stone tablets. Matt: "To all the funnel hackers, thou shalt and thou shall not." I want to hear- Russell: That would be a fun presentation, actually. Matt: Yeah, that would be, actually. Caleb Maddix: That would be. Russell: That would be cool. Matt: Dude, you need to do that. Russell: Come back from the mountain, we have 10 things. Matt: Yeah, seriously. Caleb: Wow. That'd be awesome. Matt: No, the five 'thou shalts', and like, "Thou shall..." and then- Russell: "Thou shall..." Matt: ..."Thou shall not, no matter what..." What would some of those be? Russell: That could be a really cool presentation, actually. Well, so I would say, in my first venture was Mark Joyner, and he was the one... So in context, in history, 18 years when I started, Mark Joyner... I don't think it's probably known. He's brilliant. But he built a company, and sold it off. And at the very end of his career as a coach person, I got to meet him and get to know him a little bit. But I remember, at that time, Google AdSense was this thing that came. And so, if any of you guys are old enough, just try and remember the Google AdSense days. It was insane. They were software. You click a button on software, it would pop out of site, pop out another site. And these sites would make anywhere from 100 to $1000 a day. And you just keep clicking this button, it would pop out another site. And so, people were making $1 million a month. They had teams in the Philippines, that these guys just clicking the button to build the software. It was just... But it was all fake. But it was tons of money. Insane amounts of money. I had friends making so much money. And shiny object, very shiny object, the most sexy shiny object of all time. You click a button, you can make $1 million. That was it, that was the pitch. And it was true. Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: For so... Everyone I knew. Can you imagine that? Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: If I go back in time, 18 years ago, I would move to the Philippines, I would hire everybody, and we would just click buttons. And I would've been- Caleb: Wow. Russell: ...a billionaire. It was- Caleb: Wow. Russell: It was insane. That's how Google got people adopting the AdSense program. So people would put ads on every single site, every single everything. And so, I'm getting in this game, I'm seeing this, and I'm morons making insane amounts of money. And I was like, "Ah!" And Mark had just become my mentor, the very first time, and he's like, "That's going to go away. Focus on building a list." I'm like, "But this guy's a moron. He made $1 million last month clicking a button. No strategy, no brains, no nothing." He's like, "I know, but it's going to go away. Focus on building a list." I'm like- Matt: Wow. Russell: But- Matt: Seriously? Russell: "He's clicking a button. Building lists is hard." He's like, "Build a list." I'm like... And I remember fighting him and fighting him, he's just like, "Dude, trust me. I've been on cycle. It's going to go away. Just focus and focus." And I was so upset, but I listened because I do that. One thing I pride myself on, I'm very coachable. Coach tells me something, I do it. I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. Matt: I love it. Russell: They tell me to do it, I do it, right? So I was like, "Ah, but there's free money in piles-" Matt: Even when it's hard- Russell: "All right." Matt: ...you do it. Russell: So I did it. And sure enough, I was doing that, and doing that, within six months, this things collapsed, disappeared, destroyed people's lives. Because you're making $1 million a month clicking buttons, what do you do? Especially as a young kid. Matt: Spending that much money. Russell: You're buying Lambos, and Ferraris, and helicopters, and pilots, and girls, and insane amounts of money. And then it disappears overnight. Devastating, ruined these guys, ruined them, so many people. Matt: There's no skill behind that at all. Russell: Yeah. And I had a list, and I just coasted through it. Right? And I've looked at the SEOs, every single up and down, up and down, through the years, and I just listened to Mark and just focused on building my list, focused on building it, and- Matt: So you still feel that as strong today, as when you heard it? Russell: 100%. Matt: Even then. Russell: 100%. That's one of our KPIs. How many people doing lists today? Every single day. Matt: Really? Everyday? Russell: Everyday. Because I did it for a long time- Matt: Even now, you're saying? Russell: 100%, everyday. John Parkes everyday sends me a number. “How many people joined our list yesterday?” That's all I want to know. Caleb: What's your guys' email open rates? Russell: It fluctuates. 20 ish percent. Caleb: Okay. Russell: Around there. But it was funny because I remember, I had forgotten that lesson after a while. And if you guys know Daegen Smith, Daegen, he's getting back in the game now. He's brilliant. But I remember I had a list, and I was my money off of it. I wasn't focusing on it. And I remember he asked me a question, he said, "How many..." It wasn't, "How many people are on your list?" Because that's what most people ask, "How big's your list?" But he asked me a different question, which input output, right? Matt: Yeah. Russell: The question was, "How many people joined your list today?" And I was like, "I don't know." He's like, "Go look right now." I'm like, "Okay." So I log in, and look at the thing, it was like 12. And I was like, "12?" And I was like, "Is that good or bad? I don't know." And he's like, "Let me show you mine." And he showed me his, and it was like 1400. And I was like, "You had 1400 people join today?" He's like, "Yeah." "Wait, how'd you do that?" He's like, "I just look at it everyday. And when I look at it everyday, somehow it grows." And I was like- Matt: Wow. Russell: "Okay." So then, everyday, after I log in and look at my thing, it was like 12, I'm like, "Ah." In my head, I'm like, "Fricken Daegen had 1400. I only 12." Caleb: Yeah. Matt: Wow. Russell: And also, I was like, "What do I do to get people to join the list?" Matt: Yeah, start optimizing. Russell: And then, your mind starts thinking differently, and all of a sudden you start focusing on it. And it's crazy. I can't tell you how many entrepreneurs, that have been in my world, who have gone up and then come down. And what happens, mostly, is they do something, they build a big list, they stop adding fuel to the fire, they have this list, they sell things to the list, the list atrophies, and eventually starts shrinking and dying. And then, they don't know how to build lists, the business crashes and dies. Matt: I hope you guys are really listening. Really. I mean, he's- Caleb: That's powerful. Matt: ...saving your life right now. Russell: The question, the goal, every single day, is that, because it's a fuel to your fire. And what happens was you stop putting fuel on the fire, and it doesn't die immediately. So you're like, "Oh, I've turned off Ads, so I'm good. But I'm just going to focus on emails, let's focus that." But just every email you send out, your list atrophies, shrinks, dies. And then, eventually, it'll just die. And so, yeah, if you're not consistently, constantly feeding the list, every single day- Matt: And once you have the list, what's the biggest mistake people make with their list? Russell: They don't email it. Matt: Yeah. Russell: They're scared to... You think it's too much emails. It's not, it's the opposite. It's that they don't email. Caleb: Okay. Russell: Minimum of three times a week. Closer to everyday. Matt: Wow. Russell: If you talk to Daegen, it's twice a day, everyday. Matt: Really? Caleb: What other KPIs do you have sent to you every single day? Russell: I want to know how much we made yesterday, striped. Because first off, it's cool to know. Caleb: Yeah. Russell: But second off, also it's like, I want that number to be bigger everyday. So it's like, actual money in the thing, how many people joined the list today, and how many books are sold, how many ClickFunnels members. Those are the ones for me. Our teams have other KPIs they focus on. But those are the ones I care about. Matt: So out of 30 days, when you hear the numbers, how often are you pissed and how often are you like, "Yeah."? Russell: Nowadays, it's always pretty good. Matt: Nowadays, it's like, "Woo." Russell: Because it might go up or down a little bit, but the numbers are big enough, that it's just like, "That's so crazy." I remember... Anyway. I remember just the growth of ClickFunnels, because you know Stripe dings every day with your numbers. I remember when we started going, it got to the point where it's like $10,000 a day, I was like, "$10,000 a day is insane. That's just so cool." And then, it got to a point where it's like $20,000 a day, and then 30, and then $50,000 a day, and then $100,000 a day, and then 150, then 200, 250, 300. I'm just like, "This is insane to me, that this is a daily thing that come..." it was just... Anyway, that's when it got just weird. And it makes me mad because Todd made a commitment to me, that as soon as we passed $500,000 a month in sales, he'd move to Boise. Matt: And he didn't yet? Russell: No. So... Matt: You were out of there already. Russell: And then, I was like, "Well, we have $500,000 a day." And then, he still hasn't come. So I don't know. Some day. Do you think Todd will ever move to Boise? Speaker 4: Plus I'm curious if I could pop in to ask a question. Russell: Yeah, feel free. Speaker 4: I've always wanted to ask someone of your stature, that's done as much as you have, impacted as much people as you have, and really built the business that you have. So I'm curious on your take on leadership, building a team, delegating, and your schedule and how you go about scheduling your day, and prioritizing what's important for you, as a business owner, and what you delegate to your employees and their responsibilities as well. So leadership, delegating, and scheduling. Russell: Good question. It's interesting because I would say I'm not the best leader on my team, by any stretch. And so, it was interesting because I spent the first four or five years with ClickFunnels as the CEO, trying to do my best with it. But it wasn't my unique ability, is leadership. I feel like I'm good at leading a community, but I struggle a lot more with employees and teams, internally. And so, about a year ago or so, I handed the reins to Dave Woodward, to be the CEO of ClickFunnels. And he's been amazing. Man, what he's done inside the company has been awesome. And I think a big part of it is understanding, at least for me personally, I was trying to be a leader, and trying to develop that, but I wasn't the best at it. And I think sometimes we think it's always got to be us. Like, "It's my company, I got to be the CEO. I got to be the leader. I got to do these things." It's understanding that a lot of times there's people who are really good. Who's the best you could find to be that? Or any part of our business. You know what I mean? It's a big part of it. The second thing is, if you've studied Dan Sullivan at all, one of his biggest things is unique ability. That's the thing. What's your unique ability? What's everybody's unique ability? And I think when you start a company, it's tough because it's like everyone's in charge of everything, right? I'm the CEO, but I'm also taking out the garbage, I'm also doing... everyone's Speaker 4: Yeah. Russell: ...doing a little bit of everything, which is cool. When you're scrappy in the beginning, that's important, and everyone's doing that. But as you grow, that starts hindering you more and more and more, where we had people who are insanely talented, who if I could just get them doing this thing, 100% of the time... And that's when it got to the point with ClickFunnels, is that my unique abilities are writing, are being in videos, are building funnels, doing the... Those things are my unique abilities. Caleb: Engineering. Russell: Yeah. And I was spending maybe 10% of my time on that, and 90% of the time in meetings, and trying- Matt: Wow. Russell: ...coordinate people, and leadership. And it was stressful and it was hard. Matt: And you were draining. You were probably drained doing that. Russell: Yeah. And I was miserable, that was just... I wasn't good at it. Not feeling good, like, "Ah, I'm not getting through to people. I can't figure this out." But I felt like I had to own, I had to be the guy, I had to do the thing because this is my baby, this is my business. And the last 12 months has been crazy, because I handed it to someone who actually is good at that, that is his unique ability. And I'm watching company structure, and meetings, and KPIs, things that I was never super good at doing, and consistently having it all happening now. And now, I'm in the marketing department again, and I'm building funnels. People are like, "What do you do all day?" I'm literally in ClickFunnels, building funnels. "No, but you have funnel builder..." No, I'm literally in ClickFunnels, building funnels. I didn't start this business because I wanted to be a CEO of a big huge company. I did it because I love building funnels. I'm an artist, when it comes down to it, this is my art. Matt: Wow. Russell: And that's what I get to do now. And it's amazing. So Dan's got Fridays we book out, and we spend videos, he's got a whole bunch of YouTube videos, we film five or six YouTube vlogs last week, on Friday. So we have that times blocked out to do that, right? I'm writing my next book right now, so I've got my mornings blocked out to write books, because that's when my mind's got not a million things so I can do that. And then, after morning comes in, after I do my wrestling practice, I come in. And that's my teams there, and that's when we're building funnels. I got my designer and my copywriter, the people, and I get to facilitate that. And I feel like the... What's the guy in the orchestra, the maestro? Caleb: Conductor? Russell: Yeah, like I'm the conductor, I'm conducting all these talented people. And everyone's bringing... And I'm alive, and it's exciting. And at night, I can't sleep, because I'm excited again. And so, I think that's the biggest thing, is taking the pressure off yourself if you're not the best leader. That's okay. What are you the actual best at? And success, in business, I think, at least for me, I always thought I had to be the best at everything. And it's the opposite, where it's like, "How do you focus on the thing you're best at? And get the rest of the people around you." Speaker 4: Yeah. And it gets- Matt: And it's... You had to have been willing to let go of your ego, man. Or you wouldn't have been able to grow so much. If you try to do it all yourself... Caleb: So I have a question. How much time do you spend actually thinking about the future? Because it seems like, from what you've told us, you're very dialed in and obsessed on the process, and that's how you've gotten to where you are, up to this point, because you're in love with the game. How much of your time do you spend thinking about the future, and what's on the horizon next year, five years, 10 years? Does that cross your mind? Or what does that look like? Russell: It's interesting, I can't remember who was talking to about this... The further out you look, the fuzzier it gets. You know what I mean? And so, I think for me, it's like we have... I know where I want to go, but the in between is really, really fuzzy, right? It's hard to know. And so, it's like I know... For me, the last big boat was $100 million, the next one's a billion. So we know there's the thing. But it's so far from... I don't know the steps to get there. You know what I mean? And so, for me, it's more like, "Well, here's where we're at." In fact, that was my... We had a chance, last month, to go spend a day with Tony Robbins, and we each had a chance to ask him one question. So that was literally my question, just like... Matt: What was your question? Russell: My question... It'll be a blog soon. Not yet though. No, but it was basically like, "We've gotten to this point, and I know to get to the next goal, the things we've been doing are great and they got us to this point, but I have to think differently to here. I don't know how to think differently. How do you think... It's not another book I'm... Is it a book? How do I think differently?" And what Tony said, that was... it's a very... He said a lot of things, but one of the big things was like, "Proximity is power," like, "You have to be in proximity with people who have already accomplished the thing that you're trying to do." And it was interesting because I look at the path of how I grew ClickFunnels, I did that 100%. I was like, "All right, who are the..." and we found the people, got proximity, and then grew it to this point. So eventually, we kind of coded out of the people who I was aware of. So I asked Tony, I'm like, "Well, where would you go to?" And he's like, "Well, if it was me," he's like, "Who's built the billion dollar company?" He's like, "Marc Benioff." And he started naming all these different billionaires. And this and that, all these things. And I was just like, "I never even assumed those people could... I could be..." it seems so far away. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's..." Having a proximity to those people, and start thinking differently, because I don't know the journey but they've done it. Because someone in our world, and like, "How do [inaudible 00:16:13]?" I'm like, "This is literally a 13 minute project. There you go. [inaudible 00:16:16]." It's like I've done it so many times, it's not hard, right? But for them, it's like this is the rocket science to figure it out. And then the same way with these guys who have built billion dollar companies. So now it's trying to proximity to those people, and trying to get around them, and trying to figure out the journey. So the first thing we did, literally, I got out with Tony, Tony gave the answer to the question, and I knew the first guy I needed to get into proximity with. So I texted Dave, Dave called him up, we brought him on retainer. And now, we've got him an hour a week, to get on the phone with him and just ask him all of our questions. And have him introduce us all the different players at that next level. So a lot of it's that. Dave, who's the CEO, was very focused on all the... He's very much like, "Okay, first, to get to this goal, we have to have everyone here, here, here. These are the percentages, the numbers, all the..." Those things stress me out, I hate spreadsheets. He's always got spreadsheets. But he comes back with all the spreadsheets, I was like, "All I need to know from you is... Because I'm going to be building a funnel. What's the goal? What do you need from me to be able to do that?" He's like, "We need more ClickFunnels trials." Like, "Done. I can... Okay. That's where I'm going to focus my energy." And then, it's like, now I can creative on that piece, because I know this is the metric that I can do, with my skillset, to drive it. And everybody's got a metric, right? The traffic team, everybody's got a metric. But for me personally, it's like the only thing I actually affect in a short term, micro, and then I can focus all the creativity and effort on that, while trying to figure out how to shift my mind set to be bigger, to... Caleb: If Marc Benioff offered you $1 billion for ClickFunnels, what would you say? Speaker 4: Good question. Russell: I'd ask him for five. Matt: Good response! Rob: Can I ask you a question, outside of business? Matt: You asking a question? Oh. Rob: Yeah. Matt: Oh, go ahead. Rob: So I remember you were talking about your wife earlier, with how you wanted to get her the couch. Me and my fiance actually met at ClickFunnels, at your event. Matt: Yeah. Rob: So- Matt: ClickFunnels wedding. Russell: No way. Rob: So what I'm curious about is- Russell: Am I going to be the best man at the wedding? Caleb: I told you, you've got to come, I'm like, "You've got to invite Russell." Rob: So what I wanted to ask you is, obviously you run a nine figure company, and there's a lot that goes into that, how do you balance with, let's say, number one, your wife and then your kids as well? And then, what is your secret to a really successful marriage, that's worked for you? Matt: Dude, what- Rob: I think that's something that many entrepreneurs have good marriages that don't really get asked about. So I was just curious about that. Matt: Yeah. Russell: So I hear three questions in there, right? So balance, happy wife... What was... There was a third one? Caleb: Kids. Rob: Yeah, just balancing it, running a company. I mean, you do all these things, you also have a wife, you have kids. Russell: Yeah. So I would say a couple things. So number one is balance is this thing that we all, for some reason, in our mind, we all seek after. But everything great in my life has come from times of radical imbalance. When I wanted to become a wrestler, I wasn't a great wrestler because I was balanced, it was because I became radically imbalanced in that thing. Matt: Dang. Russell: It became the most important thing in my life, and everything else suffered. But I had to do it to be considered successful. When I met my wife, we didn't create a great relationship because we were balanced, I became radically imbalanced. And all my time and effort and focus was on her. And that's why it became great. ClickFunnels, same way. We built ClickFunnels, I was not balanced. We had to become radically imbalanced for a season, to focus actually to get... So that's the thing to understand. In anything great in life, you can't do it in a point of balance. It's radical imbalance that causes greatness. Matt: And that's golf. Russell: And so, you got to be okay with that. But it can't be for forever. It's got to be something that goes, and it comes and goes. Because people who get radically imbalanced for a long time, they can lose their family, they can lose their kids. Rob: Was there a point where you had to tell your wife, "Hey, this is what I really want to do."? Russell: A lot. She had to- Rob: And she had to just- Russell: ...be on board with- Rob: ...get on board. Russell: She had to get on board, yeah. And if she wasn't, I had to say, "Okay, what's more important?" If it was her, then I had to say no to that. And there's been many opportunities in my life I've had to say no to. Rob: What's that dynamic like, being that guys are together, just as far as working out just normal little things? Russell: So I- Rob: Just decisions, those kind of things. Russell: Yeah, well, marriage, you're going to find out, it's hard. Just so fully aware. No one told me that, going into it. I was like- Matt: Yeah. Russell: I was like, "This is going to be amazing. This is going to be the greatest thing in the world." And it is, it's awesome. But man, it is way harder than I thought. Rob: Just to be a person. Russell: Yeah, someone's... I, actually, I would highly recommend Stacey and Paul Martino have a course that my wife and I have gone through the last year, and it's amazing. There's a principle they teach about demand-relationship. If you just go through their... They have a 14 day quick start, it's like $100. But if you just learn the principles of demand-relationship, what they teach. The biggest game changer in a relationship I ever... Of all the things I've studied... Rob: Why? Russell: It is amazing. Rob: What was your take-away? Russell: The principle of demand-relationship is that, throughout history and society, the way that most of us get things done is that... So in a relationship, there's a power player, and there's someone less, right? And if I want my wife to do something, I'm going to demand, like, "I need you to do these things." Right? And that works, until the other person has the ability to leave. So prior to divorce being a thing, men, throughout history, have had a dominant relationship over women. They used to manage and get what they want, and women couldn't leave. And so, it was a horrible thing, right? But they couldn't leave. As soon as divorce happened, boom, it started happening. Right? When parents come over to their kids and give demand-relationship, as soon as the kids are able to leave, it breaks. And then, breaks his relationships. And so, that's the problem, is that for the last 5000 years, that's been our DNA, that men force women to do these different things. And that's what the demand-relationship is. Their whole training, their whole course, everything they teach is the opposite of demand-relationship. How do you create a relationship, where transformation happens through inspiration, not through demanding, and chasing. And it's tough because, for all of us, especially men, it's been so ingrained in our DNA that if we want something, we... That's how we do business, how we do things. But in a relation, especially an intimate relationship, it's the worst thing that could possibly happen. And that's what we all do. So it'd be worth... I'm hoping she writes a book some day, because it's... In my new book, I have a whole chapter, actually, teaching her framework on in demand-relationship. What's that? Rob: Were you high school sweethearts? Russell: College, we met in college. Rob: So she was with you before you started... Russell: Yeah. Rob: ...and had the huge success- Russell: Yeah. Rob: ...basically. Russell: Yeah. Rob: What was that transition like, from you guys, I guess, being... struggling, and you guys stay together- Matt: Good questions, Rob. Rob: ...to now- Russell: His mindset's on this. Rob: Yeah. Russell: Going into it. Rob: What is that like? I'm just curious, because I mean people don't really talk about this, I guess, a lot. Caleb: Relationship genius. Russell: Yeah. And it's different, because some relationships, both the people are in the business, some aren't. My wife's not involved in the business at all. She... Rob: Oh, okay. Russell: ...doesn't understand it, and she doesn't want to be part of it. And that's okay. It's like sometimes that's been the biggest blessing for me, sometimes it's been hard. Caleb: Yeah. Russell: Right? Sometimes I see the power couples, who are both in the business, and it's really, really cool. But I ask them, and they're like, "Sometimes it's a great blessing, sometimes it's really hard." So there's pro's and con's both ways. But I think the biggest part is just, this has been good for our relationship, and at first we didn't always have this, but it was like... Just figuring out how to get... You both have to have that same end goal, otherwise you're fighting against each other, right? And so, when we were building ClickFunnels and stuff, it was hard at first, because she didn't really... She's like, "What are you guys doing? You spend all this time and..." didn't understand it. And it was tough because I was trying to explain it. And luckily, for me, is that Todd was part of this too, and his wife was kind of struggling. So they had each other to kind of talk through it. But it wasn't until the very first Funnel Hacking Live, where... Because my wife had never been to one of my events before, anything we'd really... She knew what kind of we did, but not really. And she came to Funnel Hacking Live, the very first one. And she didn't come down at first, because she didn't realize what was happening. And she was doing some stuff, and then, she came down with one of her friends and walked in the back of the room, and saw all the stuff. And she started just crying. She was like, "Oh, this is what you're... I had no idea this is what was happening, and what was..." And then, it became real for her. And that was such a huge blessing for me, because now, the next time, it was like, "We have to work hard for this." Or, "We're planning for..." whatever, she was able to see this is the fruits, and like, "Oh, that's why you're doing it." Now, if you notice, my wife's, every Funnel Hacking Live, front row. She doesn't understand a word we're saying, but she's there, she's paying attention, because she's like, "Look at all the people, and their lives are changing, and impacting." And now, it's different, where when I got to do work, work late nights, or whatever, she sees the vision, and she's on board with it. So it makes so much easier. The other secret I learned is if I tell her, if it's like 05:00 at night, I'm like, "Crap, I got to stay late tonight." And I call her at 05:00 at night, nothing good can come from that. It's better if you just go home, right? If I know Wednesday night, I'm going to be working late, I tell her Monday. Like, "Hey, Wednesday night, there's a good chance I'm going to be late." And then, if I tell her that, she's totally cool with it, right? But you don't tell them the day of. It'll destroy your marriage more than anything. Matt: That's good wisdom. Russell: The other secret, this secret don't put on camera, I don't want my wife to... Matt: Is that right? Russell: Yeah, if I have any inclination that people are coming to town, or something's happening, I always like, "Just so you know, next week, Matt and Caleb are coming to town. There's a good shot we might go to dinner at night, just so you're fully aware." And she's like, "Cool." And then, it's fine. The other secret, this is the real one. So don't share this outside this room. Speaker 4: This is the off camera one. Russell: Yeah. So especially after... For my wife and I... So we started having kids, the same time I started this business, right? And so, I'm traveling, I'm going to events. And she's at home with the kids. And so, we never traveled before, so I'm going on these vacations, I'm meeting these cool people, I'm in hotel rooms. So every night, I'm getting back, and I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And I'm like, "Okay, I met so and so, and then..." all these things I'm so excited, so pumped about these things. And I'm telling her about stuff, and she's at home with twin babies, miserable, tired, horrible, feet hurt, body hurt. And I'm out having the time of my life. Matt: Yeah. Russell: And I'm thinking she's going to be pumped for me, right? Matt: Right. Russell: No. And for probably a year or so, I was just like... And then, one day, I remember I'm at some event, and I get cornered by people. And then, introverted Russell's like... anxiety, and it was horrible. And somebody cornered me in the bathroom, and asking me questions while I'm peeing. And it wasn't even... At least, sometimes, most of the time, they fake pee next to you, so at least it's not awkward. He was sitting next to me, watching me pee. I'm like, "Can you at least fake pee?" And so, anyway... It was so bad. And I got home that night, and I call her on the phone, and I was just like, "It was horrible." I went off about how horrible it was, and I was miserable. And she's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry." But then, she was cool. It was awesome. And I was like, "I didn't get in trouble." And so, the next time I went out, I got home that night, call her, I was like, "Oh, it was horrible. My feet hurt, my back hurts." Anyway, and I've told so many people this, entrepreneurs and friends, who do that, and they shift... Because they don't want to hear you're having this... Anyway, is this truly good or not? I don't know. It saved my marriage. Matt: Is it true? Russell: Literally saved my marriage, and it saved so many of my friends, who… so many of friends, who had the same thing. They want to hear the stories, but not in the moment. When you come back home later, you tell the stories, they love it. But in the moment, when they're miserable, and you're having fun, it is not... First time with Tony Robbins, when I walked on fire, I call her that night, I'm like, "I just walked on fire. Waaa!" And I hear the kids screaming in the background, and she was angry. And I was like, "Huh." And I'm like, "Cool, I'm sending you to walk on fire next month." I sent her to walk on fire, and then she was on fire. But it was like... Caleb: She's like, "No." Russell: Later, she wants to hear, but not in the moment, because it's just like... Anyway, so- Rob: Yeah. Russell: ...that was- Rob: Makes sense. Russell: ...life changing for... Anyway, so... And then, the other thing is just you have to understand what your values are. I learned this from Tom Bilyeu at a level that was fascinating, recently. But- Caleb: Who was that? Russell: Tom Bilyeu, he runs Impact Theory. Caleb: Oh, okay. Rob: Impact Theory. Caleb: Gotcha. Russell: But he writes out his values, but he prioritizes them. So his number one value is his wife, number two... And he has the values written out. And so, when a conflict comes in place, or he gets asked to speak at a huge event, speak for the Queen of England, or whatever, but it's the same weekend as his wife wants something. He's like, "My wife trumps the value... 100%, she trumps it. So the answer's no, and it's not hard for me to say no." Caleb: Wow. Russell: And so, it's figuring it out for yourself. What are your values? Personally, with your family, the wife, everything like that. And you define them, and then it's like there's no question. That's what hard, is when you value something here, and your spouse values something differently, and the conflict of that is what causes the fights, right? But if you get on the same page, like, "Look, this is number one, two..." You have these things, then it makes it easier to navigate those things, because it's like, "No, I understand this is one of the values we have together, as a couple, you should go do that thing." Or whatever the thing might be. So anyway... Caleb: That's awesome. Russell: But marriage is one of the hardest things, but one of the most rewarding things, at the same time. So it's worth it, but it's a ride. Go through demand-relationship, man. That's- Rob: That's a great point. Russell: ...so good. Speaker 4: I got a question. Rob: Yeah, go ahead. Speaker 4: So two big things that I heard from you, amongst your story, you were talking this positivity. When you were doing great at something, or you learned something, you're so excited about it, you're so positive, but then there's this other part of you that's very vulnerable. Russell: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Speaker 4: And so, you experience anxiety, or you have challenging days, or you're discouraged. How do you find the balance between those, of being vulnerable and being honest with how you're feeling, versus, "Hey, this is a challenge. I'm an entrepreneur, I can overcome this."? Matt: Right. Speaker 4: What's the balance? Russell: Yeah. That's good. One of the... Everyone who's met Tony has a story about how Tony's changed their life. But one of the biggest things that I... There's three or four things that I got from Tony, the very first time I went to his event and I heard him speak, that had a huge impact on me. One of the biggest ones was state control, understanding that. Have you ever heard him talk about the triad and things like that? Speaker 4: Yeah. Russell: I'd never heard that before, and I remember watching him do these things on people in the audience. And it was fascinating. He took a lady, who was... He picked somebody in the audience who was suicidal, and he's like... It was the weirdest thing. And he talked about the triad, right? There's three things that change your state, right? There's your language, there's your focus, and there's your physiology, right? So he takes someone, he's like, "I need someone who's suicidal." He takes this beautiful girl. I remember, we were up in Toronto, so then he takes this girl, and he's like, "I need you to get depressed. Not a little bit depressed, clinically suicidal." She's like, "What?" He's like, "Just get there in your mind. Whatever it takes, get dark." And you see her state change, right? And he keeps pushing her, and keep pushing her, and he gets her to this point. And anyway, it's crazy I'm watching this. And I'm kind of freaking out, because I'm watching him do this to this girl, getting her to a point... And soon, she's bawling her eyes out and everything. And he's like, "You got to get deeper. Get darker. More miserable." All this stuff. And you see him change this girl's state. And all of a sudden it stopped. And finally, it seemed like forever, finally he stops and he's like, "Everyone look at her. Watch her. Look at this." He's like, "What do you notice? What's her physiology?" You see her body, you see tears, and all this stuff. And you see her just broken. And then, he's like, "What do you say?" And he goes through the whole triad with her. And he shows that. And he's like, "Now I'm going to show you how quickly you can shift this." To the point where it's like... Anyway, it was crazy. And then, he shifts it, and he starts taking her back through, shifting the physiology, shifting her shoulders, shifting everything, shifting her meanings, shifting focus, shifting what she's saying. And he gets this girl, within three or four minutes, to literal ecstasy, it was crazy watching this. And you see her, where she's laughing... the opposite side of it. And I'd never seen somebody like that, the flip of emotions, how easy it was, by just shifting these three things in her. And it had such a profound impact on me. Caleb: Is there video of that? Russell: Not maybe the one I saw, but he does it at every UPW, he does it... I'm sure there's YouTube videos of it, as well. But if you type the triad, I think he calls it the triad or state control, things like that, you see it happen. But I saw that, and I was just like, "Oh my gosh, I never realized that we had control over that. I thought my feelings were my feelings." Like, "Here's your feeling." Like, "Okay, crap, this is the feeling I have today." And after experiencing that, I was like, "I could actually change this." I didn't know that. And it's interesting because I think sometimes when we're depressed, or we're sad, or we have these things, I think some of us like it. I've had times before, I don't want to be happy. I'm enjoying feeling miserable. And sometimes, I sit in there because I enjoy, because we do, it's weird. It's messed up. But I felt that. I'm like, "I could change this but I don't want to." But other times, I'm like, "I have to change it." Now that I've learned that. It's crazy you can shift your state, and you can do that and show up the way you need to be. And one practical example of how I use it a lot is, when I get home at the end of the night... And this kind of comes back to your question, I think, earlier, too. How do you do all the things? And I told you this yesterday. One of the things that I got the biggest, from being around Tony Robbins, the most impressive thing about him is when... Tony's got... As busy as any of us are, take that times 10, and that's Tony, right? He's the most busy person ever. But if you have a chance, a brief moment with Tony, where he's going to say a million things, and you have a second with him, he is the most present person I've ever met. The world dissolves around it, and it's just him and you, and there's nothing else. You can tell. And he's just zoned in on you, and it's this magical experience. And as soon as it's done, he's just gone, he's on the next thing. But that moment, he's hyper-present. And so, for me, when I'm doing things, it's like... Like, when I get home at night, at the end of the day, park my car, I walk in, and there's the door before I come into the house. And sometimes, I'm anxious, I'm thinking about work, and thinking about stuff, I'm stressed out, the FBI sent me a letter today, Taylor Swift suing me, whatever the thing is. And I'm like, "Ah." And then, I'm like, "I'm going to walk through that door, and I can't do anything about it now. My kids are there, my wife's there." And it's just like, "Okay, I got to change my state." And right there, before I walk through the door, I change my state. Get in the spot, and then like, "Okay, here we go." And I walk through the door, and it's like then I'm dad. And it's different, right? And so, I think it's learning those things. Because it's not... Your feelings are weird, they're going to show up in one way or the other, but the fact that you can control them, which I didn't understand or know how. But as soon as I realized that, it's just like, "I don't have to be sad, or miserable, or anxious, or whatever. I can actually change those things in a moment, if I understand how." And that was one of the greatest gifts Tony gave me, was just understanding how to do that, and seeing it in practical application with somebody. And now, it's like I can do it myself, any time I need to, if I need to. Matt: How do you act around Tony Robbins? Especially from the beginning to now, because you guys are close now. He probably looks at you like I look at a lot of these guys, that are Caleb's friends. I look at them like nephews, these are like... I'd do anything for them. And I know that... I can see that's how Tony starting to look at you. But take us from the very first time, because he didn't he have you come to an event, ask you a bunch of questions, take notes, and then just leave you hanging, or something like that. Tell the story, real quick. Russell: Oh, man. Tony's so intense. I still get scared to... It's still like, "Ah." Anyway, every time I see him, it's just like... I don't know, it's weird. His presence is- Matt: He still makes you nervous. Russell: Oh, yeah, for sure. But the very first time... So yeah, it was... I don't know, it was probably 04:00 in the morning. I don't even know. The shorter version of the long story is they asked me to come meet him in Toronto, at UPW, same event as this whole experience happened. So I went up there, and supposed to meet him one day, and it shifts to the next day. And if you ever work with Tony, just know if he tells you he's meeting you at 10:00, it could be like four days later you actually meet. You're on Tony time. Yeah, it's- Matt: That's just how it is. Russell: It's crazy, yeah. Just waiting. But it's always worth it, so you just wait and be grateful when it happens. But anyway, so we finally get to the point where we meet, and I have to drive 45 minutes. This is pre-Uber, so I'm in a taxi to some weird hotel. And we get there, and then me and his assistant stand outside for another hour, waiting in the lobby. He kept looking at his phone, nervously, like, "Ah." He's like, "Okay, Mr. Robbins' ready to meet you. Let's go." So we run up the stairs, we go to this thing, we walk in this room, and there's- Matt: And this is the first time you ever- Russell: ...body guards everywhere. First time I ever met him, yeah. Yeah, he's like a giant, comes and gives me a huge hug. And we sit down, and he's like, "You hungry?" I'm like, "Yeah." And he was vegetarian at the time, so he's like, "Get Russell some food." And brought me out this amazing plate of... I don't even know what it was. But it was... I was like, "If I could eat like this is every night, I'd be vegetarian." Because it was amazing. It was- Caleb: It was? Russell: ...insane. And then, got his tape recorder out, he's like, "You okay if we record this?" I'm like, "Yeah." So he clicks record, picks out a big journal, he's like, "You're Mormon, right?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "I love the Mormon people. When I was eight years old, I went to a Mormon church and they told me to keep a journal. I've kept a journal ever since. Do you mind if I take notes while we talk?" Matt: Wow. Russell: I'm like, "Eh, okay." So he's recording, taking notes, and then he drilled me for an hour. Just like do, do, do. Just like- Speaker 4: And how long ago was this? Russell: This is 13, 14 years ago. Speaker 4: Okay. Russell: Anyway, it was intense. And I can't remember what I was saying, I was so scared, I'm second-guessing everything I've said. And then, he's asking me numbers and stats, because we were trying to do this deal with him. And it was so scary. Matt: So he was just drilling you with questions, and just trying to- Russell: Oh, like crazy, yeah. I'm trying to just... Yeah, dude. Anyway, it was crazy. And then, he had to go back to UPW to speak again, so he's like, "You want to drive with me?" So I'm like, "Yeah." So go down, and jump in his Escalade together, we're in the back seat, and we're driving. And it's just crazy. And I remember he asked me a question about this one... I won't say the person's name because the story isn't positive for the person. But he asked, he's like, "What do you think about so and so?" I'm like, "Oh, that person's really cool and really talented." He's like, "He's a very significant..." and he just talked about six human needs, earlier that day, so I was very aware of here's what the needs are, right? And he's like, "Yeah, I don't think I'd ever work with him, because he's very significance driven." And I was like, "Oh, that make sense." And all of a sudden, I was like, "Ah, Tony is reading my soul, right now." I was like, "What drives me? I don't even know what drives me. Does he know what drives me?" Like, "Oh my gosh, am I significance driven?" I'm freaking out, like, "Ah." And all I remember is panicking, thinking, "He knows more about me than I know about me, at this point." And all these things, I'm freaking out, we're driving in his Escalade. And we get to the thing, and he's like, "I got to go inside. Thank you so much, brother. I love you." Jumps out the car, shuts the door. I'm sitting in the Escalade, like, "What just happened?" Matt: It was that fast. Russell: It was insane, yeah. Matt: It was just like- Russell: And then, the driver's like, "Do you want to get out here? Do you want me to drive you somewhere?" Like, "I don't even know where we are." We're in Toronto somewhere, that's all I know. And so, it was just the craziest experience. And then, I don't hear from him for four or five months, nothing. And I'm like- Matt: What were you thinking? Did you think- Russell: I was like, "He must've hated me. Maybe I failed the test. Am I significance driven?" I'm freaking out about all the things. And then, one day, I get this random... It was actually my wife and I, we were celebrating our anniversary, so we were at... It was a StomperNet event, but we took her, it was this cool thing. And she'd just gone to UPW. I sent her like three months later. So she walked on fire, and she was like... And Tony talks about Fiji there, so she was like, "Someday we should go to Fiji." And then, we get this call from Tony, and it was like, "Hey..." Or it was Tony's assistant. Like, "Hey, Tony wants to know if you want to speak at Business Mastery in Fiji, in two weeks." I was like, "Tony Robbins..." I started saying it out loud so Collette could hear me. "Tony Robbins wants me to speak in Fiji, in two weeks?" And Collette, my cute little wife, starts jumping on the bed, like, "Say yes! Say yes!" Caleb: Aw! Russell: And I was like, "Yes, yes, yes. Of course, we will." And then, we're like, we've got three kids that are all toddlers at this time, and like, "Can we bring kids?" They're like, "There's no kids allowed on the resort." I'm like, "We've got three little kids." He's like, "Ah, all right. We'll figure it out." So I hang up, and we're like, "We don't have passports for the kids, we don't have anything." So anyway, it was chaos, we're freaking out. We ended up getting them there, they literally built a fence around our... The Bula house, where's Dan at? The Bula house we were in. They built a whole fence around, so our kids wouldn't die because- Caleb: Did they really? Russell: ...there's cliffs off the back. Yeah, it was crazy. And then, I'm speaking to this room, and there's less than 100 people. I'm speaking, and Tony's sitting in the back of this room, I'm like- Matt: While you're speaking. Russell: ..."I thought he was not going to be here. This is really scary." Yeah. And he's paying attention the whole time. Matt: Does it make you more nervous? Russell: He introduced me, he brought me on stage, which was like... I still have the footage of that, it's really cool. He brought me on stage, which was crazy. And then, I remember, because in the thing we're talking about lead generation, I was talking about squeeze pages. And afterwards, he got on. He comes up afterwards, he's like, "Yeah, I heard squeeze pages don't work anymore. Is that true, Russell?" He's like, "People say they're kind of dead, they don't work anymore." And this is, again, 12 years ago. And I was like, "Who told you that? They totally still work." Which is funny, because we still use them today. But he was just like, "Somebody had told me they don't work anymore." And I was like, "They..." anyway, "They work, I promise." But anyway, and then I don't hear from him for five years, and then something else happens. It's just weird, these long extended periods of time. But then, every time, every moment, I tried... Five years later, it was a call, it was like, "Hey, Tony's doing this thing. He wants your opinion on it." So I spent like two or three hours with his team, consulting, giving feedback, as much ideas as I could. And like, "Cool, thanks." And then, nothing for two years, and then something else, and then... Little things keep happening, and happening, and can do more and more together. And then- Matt: What did you learn from that? You think that's just- Russell: A couple things I've learned. Number one, I'm sure you guys get this a lot, people who want to work with you, they show up and the first thing they show up with is, "All right, I got an idea how we can make a bunch of money together." Right? They always come, and want to figure out how they can take from you. And I was so scared, and grateful, I didn't ever ask Tony for anything. The first time I asked Tony for anything ever was 12 into our relationship, after Expert Secrets book was done. I had just paid him $250,000 to speak on our stage, and just finished the interview promoting his book. And I was like, "Hey, I wrote a new book. Do you want one?" Matt: Wow. Russell: And he's like, "Oh." And he took it. I'm like, "Cool." And then, a week later, I'm like, "Ah, will you interview me on Facebook with this?" He's like, "Sure." And then, he did, and that video got three and a half million views on it. It was crazy, coolest thing ever. But it was 12 years before I asked him for anything. And I had- Matt: Wow. Russell: ...served him at as many different points as I can. I think the biggest lesson from that is that... And I get it all the time, people come to me and it's like they're trying to ask and take. It's just like... I get it, and it makes sense. But it's just like, "This game's not a short game. If you do it right, it's your life. This is your life mission." Right? Matt: Yeah, that's good. Russell: And so it's just understanding you're planting seeds, and you're serving, and if you do that, eventually good things will happen. And something may never happen with Tony, and that's cool. I do stuff for a lot of people, and nothing ever good ever comes from it. But hopefully something does. Sometimes it's indirect, sometimes it's not, sometimes it's just karma, or whatever you believe in. But if you just always go with the intent to serve, not to like, "What's in it for me?" It just changes everything. And then, if you do that, if you lead with how to serve, stuff comes back to you. But if you lead with trying to get stuff, it just doesn't work. The energy's different in the whole encounter. You know what I mean? Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: So I'm sure you guys have felt that with people, when they first come to you, and it's just like, "Ah." Matt: So is there a point where you... You went to his house. Russell: That was cool. The thing I can say is it was really cool, because most times when I'm with Tony, you're around people. In Fiji, it was fun seeing him, because he's more personal and stuff like that. But it was really special in his home, because it was him and his wife, and it was cool. It was fun just seeing him as him, like as a kid. And even my wife, like, "He seems like a kid here." He was so excited, and showing us his stuff, and all the things. Matt: Ah, well, guys, listen. Russell: Anyway- Matt: A few more questions, because I mean, man, you've been at it for almost two hours, dude. I can go all night, and I know he could. But Brea Morrison, give it up for her for letting us be here. Thank you so much.

The roundtable interview with Matt and Caleb Maddix and a small group of people who are trying to change the world. Enjoy part two of this special 4 part episode series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Seekers Podcast. So I have got to ask you, what did you think about episode number one of the World Changers Roundtable? Hopefully, you loved it. There were so many things covered in that 42 minutes. Anyway, we are moving on to the next part of this interview. As you know, this is going to be broken down into four parts because they kept me there, handcuffed to a table, until 3:00 AM. I'm just joking. They didn't really. But, the question was so intriguing, we were having so much fun, we just kept going and going until finally I was like, "I have to fly out in three hours. I need to get back to my hotel." But now we're going to go dive into the second part. This next episode is probably another 30 to 40, 45 minutes or so as well. So these are some things we'll be covering in this one, which is really fun. We talk about, number one, why my business partner, Todd Dickerson, is so amazing, and hopefully give you ideas about if you're pursuing opportunities and trying to land your dream job or partnership or whatever. Number two, we talked about personality profiling, how we actually are hiring here at ClickFunnels. We talked about where my love for learning came from. We talked about transition for me, going from an athlete to a business person and a marketer. We talked about some of the lessons I learned from Lindsey Stirling, things I was not expecting to hear from her that totally changed everything for me. We talked about people who intrigue me, my interest in health and bio hacking. We talked about is there anything that happens inside of this business that gets me as excited as what I felt in wrestling. We talked about what thing is close, but nothing actually has ever hit it. We talked about the first Two Comma Club Awards. We talked about how to upgrade your identity as you grow. We talked about the fact that you have to cycle and fail and rebuild in your businesses. We talked about the launch of ClickFunnels and how it wasn't just the fact that I was a genius, because I wasn't. There are so many things. Talking about the grace of God and how it tied into the launch of ClickFunnels. We talked about some of my early products, like Zip Brander and Forum Fortunes. We talked about my Christmas Grinch sale, which was the very first big sale, big launch I ever did, to my little tiny list that made enough money to cover Christmas for my wife and I when we were first getting started. We talked about becoming worthy. We talked about list building, how it's better than buying ads, and a whole bunch of other things. It's amazing, this could be 40 courses all wrapped into one super podcast episode. So if you liked the last episode, I think you're going to love this one as well. And I've got two more after this, coming back, going deeper into this conversation with the Roundtable of World Changers. So, that said, we're going to cue the theme song. When we come back, we'll dive right into the second section here of the interview. Matt Maddix: Dave and Todd, I mean, just wow. Those dudes are like... But what about those guys? Russell: So here's Todd's story. So the real long story short, I bought some software, it was coding Ruby on Rails, didn't know that. Bought this company with the last... I didn't have the money. So I borrowed money, bought this company, coded on some platform we didn't know, and I was like, "Screw it," right? And I tried to hire people to fix it, nobody could fix this platform until finally I was leaving the office one day. I literally emailed the people saying, "Turn off the servers." We lost all of our money to this company. They shut it down. And I'm walking out of the office and I had this impression of like, "There could be someone on your email list who knows Ruby on Rails." I was like, "That's weird. I had a bunch of internet marketing nerds. There's no one that's like, 'Ruby on Rails...'" Anyway. It was starting with the impression from God, I stopped, turned back around, set the computer to open back up, sent an email to my list. "If you know Ruby on Rails, I'm looking for a partner. I bought a software company and it's not working. Please send me a message." Send. Matt: And that's all you said? Russell: Yeah. And lo and behold, three years earlier, Todd bought some random thing from me, happened to be on my email list. He built the website three or four years earlier that was making six figures a year on autopilot. Hadn't worked in four years. Just hanging out relaxing with his wife and his daughter. And an email comes in and it says, "If you know Ruby on Rails, I'm looking for a partner." He's like, "I know Ruby on Rails. I can be Russell's partner." Emails me back. And at first I see him and his beautiful wife and I'm like, "There's no way he's a programmer. There's no way." That was literally my thought. But he was the only person that responded back so I was like, "Okay, well, here's the login to the site. Fix it. I don't know what to do. I'm not a coder." I went to bed, woke up the next morning. He's like, "Cool, I fixed the site. Plus I found this, this, and this. And I changed this. And I moved these things,", and all of this stuff. He's like, "It's working now. Do you have anything else you want to do together?" I'm like, "Huh." And so I give him another project, another project. And for an entire year Todd and I worked together, and never once did he ever ask me for money, ever. Matt: Wow. Russell: Not a penny. And I remember he started finding Boise to work on a project together ... Matt: You're telling me he worked for you for an entire year? Russell: For free. More than a year. Caleb Maddix: Why was that? Russell: I don't know. I found out later. He'd gone to Robert Kiyosaki at this event and he said, "Find someone who's doing what you want to do and work for them for free." So he told me that years later. I didn't know that. Matt: Todd, if you're watching dude. I love you man. You're legit. Russell: And so he kept coming and he started coming to Boise and we started becoming friends. The smartest developer I've ever met. Literally the smartest person I've ever met. I'll go that far. Just genius. And he'd come out to Boise and we'd work on projects and ideas. We tried to launch a couple of things. None of them really worked. And we were just trying stuff. He was just always there, always serving, always doing stuff. And one day were in Boise and I was looking over his shoulder cause we're looking at stuff and I saw his email. And there's all these emails from some recruiting site or something. I was like, "What's that?" He's like, "Oh, it's people recruiting me for a Ruby job." And I was like, "Do you get a lot of those?" And he's like, "I get three or for a day." I'm like, "Really? Are they good offers?" He's like, "I don't know. Let's check it out." He opened it up and the first one was like $400,000 a year starting salary. I'm like, "What?" The next one is $350,000. The next was 5 ... Insane things. I'm like, "Why don't you do that?" He's like, "I don't want to work for them. I want to be your partner man." I'm like, "What?" And then I all of a sudden had this realization that I hadn't paid him in a year. We didn't have much money at the time, we're still at the backside of a business failure when we met. I'm like, "I can pay you maybe $50,000 a year. Can I pay you that?" He's like, "Whatever." So I told our little bookkeeper, "Pay Todd $50,000 a year." And they're like, "Okay." So he did that and next year we're paying $50,000 a year. We're doing stuff and we have more things. Started to get a little success here and there. Making more money. Back in Boise again. And I'm like, "Can I pay you some more?" And he's like, "Whatever." Matt: So he wasn't ever just asking? Russell: Never in his life has he asked me for money. Ever. So we bumped it up to $100,000 a year because that's what we got, the year before that, after a year or two working together. And then, it was crazy, the day Leadpages got the first round of funding for $5,000,000, the same day Todd was flying to Boise. And he gets the email. It's east coast so he's two hours ahead. He's awake and on the plane, he sees the email, forwards it to me, and then jumps in the plane. He's flying for four hours. I wake up. I see the email and I was like, "Leadpages? Got 5 ..." I was like, we built landing page software in the past. I was perplexed and angry. And then Todd lands. And Todd, he's a little guy, he comes into the office all angry. He's like, "Leadpages got 5 million!" He's like, "I can build Leadpages tonight. Do you want to build lead pages?" I'm like, "Yeah. Let's compete with Leadpages." He's like, "All right." Matt: No way. Dude. I love this. Russell: This is like angry Todd. I love angry Todd. I like all Todds, but angry Todd is the best Todd. Matt: Is it? Okay. Russell: He's just pissed because he's like, "I can build this tonight. Everything thing they got we can have done tonight." So we're getting all ready. What should we call it and everything. And then he's like, "Wait, we're building this. You want to add anything else to it?" And I was like, "Oh. Yeah. What if it did this? And what if it did this?" And we spent a week in front of a white board saying, "What if it did?", and we mapped out ClickFunnels. Matt: So you're talking about a week where you guys just locked in and you were just having fun. Just doodling and whatever. Russell: Yeah. He's like, "Oh, I can do that. We can do that." We're brainstorming all sorts of stuff so we map the whole thing out. Matt: Did you know at that moment you were onto something big? At that moment right there, when you guys were like ... Or was it just still like ... Russell: All lot of people have tried something like that. I tried before other people tried. No one had done it. So I was kind of skeptical but Todd's like, "I can do this. This is easy." I'm like, "Okay because I tried it ..." He's like, "No dude, I can do it. This is easy." So I was, excuse me, optimistically hopeful because he's a genius but I was also nervous. But anyways, we map it out and then we bought Clickpros.com. I wanted to call it ClickFusion because I own ClickFusion, but we'd had three failed businesses called ClickFusion. All of them failed and Todd was like, "No. It's bad karma. We can't." I'm like, "But the logo is so cool dude." Matt: I love it. You love the logo. Russell: And he's like, "No, we can't." He's like, "It's got a jinx on it or something. We can't do that. You have to come up with a different name." I was like, "But ClickFusion is the coolest name ever." So we're trying things. Click everything and then ClickFunnels. We're like, "Ah." That was the thing. We're so excited Matt: Who first said it? Do you remember? The words ClickFunnels. Caleb: It's almost like God saying, "Let there be light." Russell: I would assume it was me but I'm not positive. I'll have to ask Todd on that one. Caleb: Well, when you said it, was it instant? Like fire? Russell: It was insane, it was available. Matt: Oh, you know that feeling, right? Checking domains. You're like… chills. Russell: How has no one thought of this before? And so we got it and I remember I was driving him to the airport at the end of the week to take him back home. And we got to the airport. Boise airport, It's a small airport. So we pull up to the thing to get out and you can tell he's probably nervous waiting. And before we get out of the car he's like, "I really want to do this man. I'm excited." I'm like, "Me too. Me too." He's like, "I don't want to do this like your employee though. I want to do it as your partner." And in that moment, I was just like all the fear of ... I'd tried partners in the past. It hadn't worked. All this stuff and all the everything. And it was just this weird thing of just all the emotions were hitting me as he sat in the car, about to get out the car. I have 15, 20 seconds before he's going to to go. I was just thinking about him. I was like, he's never asked me for money. He's never done anything. He's served. He's given everything. I was just looking at him. I was like, "All right let's do it." He's like, "Cool." And he got out of the car and he's gone. Matt: Wait a minute. So at that moment? Is was that quick? Russell: That was it. Matt: It was a gut feeling that you just knew. That he was ... Russell: It was him. Yeah. And I was literally... I said this on stage at Funnel hacking live, outside of marrying my wife, it was the greatest decision I ever made. Matt: Yeah. I remember you saying that with tears. Russell: Yeah. Matt: Why though? I'm curious because it's not just ClickFunnels. Russell: He's amazing. If you look at our personality profiles, it's fascinating. We have the same personality profiles. The Myers-Briggs. Except for one letter's different. Where I'm a feeler he's a thinker. And it's been magical as a partnership because we both have so much respect for each other that we don't try to fight each other. And it's very much like if I wanted to do something, I'm like, "This is what I want to do. This what I'm feeling. What do you think?" And he'll come back and be like, "Well, I think this." And so I come up from feeling instead of thinking and it's really cool. So sometimes his thinking will trump my feeling. And I'm like, "You're actually right. Let's not do that." Or vice versa. Where he's like, "I'm thinking this." And I'm like, "I don't know why but I feel this." And he'll be like, "Okay." He respects that. We just have such mutual respect that we've never been in a fight. We've never argued. We've never had problems. It's been amazing. Matt: Wow. Russell: And he's similar to like we talk about with Dan. He went back home after us white boarding that, sat in his basement for five or six months and built ClickFunnels by himself. Caleb: Really just by himself? Russell: 100% by himself. Caleb: No other team. No other dev? Russell: It was just him. And the right before we launched, we brought in another partner, Dylan, who built the front-end editor and did a lot of the UI. And so then it was those two as we got closer and closer to the launch. And then for the next year it was just those two that did everything. And then after a year, we started bringing in other developers. But it was 100% Todd. Matt: Wow. Russell: He's amazing. In all aspects. You know you have friends you think they know everything about everything. That's like Todd except he actually knows everything about everything. You ask him anything and he's just like ... I don't know how he does it. And I'll always fact check him, like, "Oh my gosh. He's right again." He's brilliant. It's amazing. Matt: So for those of us who have partners or are maybe going into partnership, what's your best advice? And what do you feel like he does right that other partners don't do? Russell: I think the hardest thing with partners is typically we want to partner with someone who is just like us. We did a podcast most recently. Dean, Tony and I, right? We've done two partnerships. Both partnerships made it through the launch and they stopped. Made it through the launch and stopped. The podcast was like, "Why?" I love Dean. I love Tony. They're amazing. The problem is that me and Dean had the exact same skill set. Matt: Oh. Russell: And so the problem is that both of us are right. We both understand it right, but we do it differently. And so it's like You have two people, and so typically you want to partner with those people who are like you. You're like, "Oh, we think the same. We should be partners." But that's not necessarily the right thing because then you've got two alphas with the same skillset, and someone has to win and someone has to lose. And it's hard. Whereas me and Todd, we have different skill sets. There is never a winner or a loser. We can both win because different skill sets, both the same mission. It's really easy. So I think the biggest thing is you're trying to find the yin yang. You're not trying to find someone who thinks like you or acts like you. In fact, this is true in most hiring processes as well. I used to have people like, "Send me a video if you want this job." Right? So I get these videos, and the people that I wanted to hire were the people like me. I'm like, "This person's awesome. They think like me. They're a genius. They're amazing." You'll hire them, and within a week I'm like, "I hate this person." It's horrible. So we started shifting the way we do our hiring based on personality profiling instead. DISC profile drives most of my own personal hiring so I know that I'm a high D, high I, high S. No C at all. Right? And so the people I need to hire around me are high S, high C. The problem is the people I who I watched their videos and I'm pumped, they're high D, high I. So I'm like, "Yeah. These people are awesome. They're charismatic. I'm going to love them. They're drivers, they're awesome. Worst employees ever. Matt: Right. Russell: Right? So when people send us this profile, first I find the right profile and then from there I do interviews. Because if I interview ahead of time I get sold by the people who sell and then they're horrible employees. And so I make sure they're high S high C, because I know that if I talk to high S high C, I'm going to be kind of bummed out. Like, "Oh, I don't know if this is the kind of person that I'm going to jive with." But they're the best people to surround myself with because I'm such a high D high S. I'm a creator. I'm throwing things up in the air and I need people who are S and C, who are faithful finishers, who are going to take the things, capture them, and make sure that it's amazing. Matt: Do you feel like businesses and entrepreneurs are making a mistake by not having their employees and their team take these tests? Russell: 100%. I have a new company we're launching all about personality profiling because I'm such a big believer in it. Matt: Really? Tell me why. Top three reasons. Russell: It's in all things in life. If you're going to be a partner. If you're going to date someone. Understanding who they are is such a big part of it. Right? Because we think everyone sees the world the same way we see it and it is not true at all. The way you see it, the way we all see is so different and so if we don't understand that at a deep level, then I get upset by what you do and at what everyone's doing because it's like, "Don't you see what I see?" And the reality is no they don't. So if you start understanding people better ... In fact, the software can be called Understand About Me. It's a place you go and you take all the personality profiling and it gives you a page that can show somebody this is me. So in five seconds I can understand you perfectly they're like, "Oh, now I know how to work with you." Because I understand what you are, what your beliefs are, what your values, all the things I need to know about you, I can find it really quickly. Where normally you're going to go years with somebody before you understand them. I can look at a thing and get pretty dang close in a minute. Matt: Wow. Russell: Now I know hot interact with you and spend time with you and work with you. Things like that. Caleb: Question. Where does your love to learn come from? Because one of the things I noticed from being around you, it's always like yeah, so I had this moment where I geeked on this and I geeked out on this. It was health and suppliments, and marketing and personality types. There's all these different things you geek out on. Have you always been that way? Is it like you geek out on marketing, you saw the rewards from it, and you're like, "Wow, what if this goes into other areas?" Where does that come from? Russell: Yeah, I didn't always have my life. In fact, I had a fascinating conversation with Tom Bilyeu about this, because when I was growing up in high school I always thought I was a dumb kid. I thought I was an athlete, so I focused there. I thought I was an athlete, so I was a wrestler, that was my identity, that was where I focused at. I thought I was dumb. Because of that, straight C student high school and college, my cumulative GPA graduating from college was 2.3. Straight C's and one B maybe somewhere in there, right? Because I was a dumb kid. When I got done I ended my wrestling career, so I stopped being an athlete, and I was like, "Oh crap." I started to learn this business stuff and I don't like to read. I'm a dumb kid. What do I do? It was fascinating. Tom told me, because I had this epiphany, I'm not actually dumb. He's like, "Actually, the reality is you probably really were dumb. But then you changed, right?" So for me it was like I shifted. It was fascinating. Do you remember the Funnel Hacking Live where we had Lindsay Stirling perform? One of my favorite parts of that, she did a whole performance. If you guys don't know, Lindsay does violin dancing stuff, and afterwards I had a Q and A with her afterwards. I had this question I was so pumped to ask. I was waiting for her just to like, the question is, she was on America's Got Talent, and I think she took 7th place. When she got kicked off, Pierce Bronson or whatever said, "You've got no talent. You're no good." Whatever, right? So I was like, do you remember that time when he said that? What I thought she was going to say was, "Yeah, I proved him wrong. Yeah." I was like, "What did you feel after that?" She's like, "Yeah, I got home and I realized he was right. I wasn't very good. So I went back and I started practicing and I started working harder and eventually I became good enough." It was like, oh my gosh. I got chills when I was saying it again. Matt: Yeah. Russell: I remember when Tom said it to me, he was like, "You probably were dumb." I was like, "I was." Because I wasn't reading things. So with marketing that was the first thing for some reason that caught my attention, that got me excited, right? And then if you look at my DISC profile, ROI is my highest value. I have to see ROI in something or I don't want to do it. So when I saw an ROI on this reading, I was like, "Oh my gosh. I read a book, I got one little sentence, changed a color, made more money. Oh my gosh." That is where it started, 100%. I started learning that and I started getting obsessed with those things. As this business grew for me I started being more, I always joke that crazy people got attracted to me, right? The best health people, the best fitness people, the best in every market kind of came into our world somehow. So I started getting to meet all these people. When you're around someone who's the best in the world at the thing, and they start talking about the thing, you can't help but be like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." Right? You zone in on that. So whenever I meet someone that's amazing and I have a chance to talk to them like this I just geek out. Like when I met your dad the first time with you guys. That's when I bought your parenting course and everything. I was just like, I saw you and I saw him and I was like, "I want that." So I started going down that rabbit hole, right? I met Anthony DiClementi, I was like, "I love this guy. I have respect for him, I love him." Every time he talks about anything, he fascinates me, when he talks about something it fascinates me. I have to look down those things, right? When people fascinate me, the things that fascinate them start fascinating me and that's when I kind of go down those rabbit holes. This person is so intriguing and fascinating. What makes them that way? What are they doing. It's interesting. I'm not a good question asker. You guys are so good at question askers. I've never been good at asking questions, but I'm really good at watching what people do and then seeing it and trying to go down the rabbit hole. What are they doing, why are they doing it, that kind of thing. Caleb: He's a true master in it. You can just tell. What are some things you want to take the time to geek out on? I'm sure you see something and you're like I want to get on that but it's not a priority, I've got to do this. What are some things, if I had a week or two? Russell: Just free time with nothing else involved? Caleb: What's the next thing you're going to geek out on? Russell: Oh. I would say every probably three years I get re-excited about SEO, for some reason. I start going down that path again, because I love it. There's times in my business when that was the focused. It's not now at all, but I went through a couple ... Brian Dean's a real cool SEO guy, couple guys… I started dabbing my toe in again and I'm like, I just want to get back into it so bad. Right now SEO is actually our number 11 lead source as of today in ClickFunnels, which is amazing. So we handed SEO the first four or five years, now we're focused on it again. It's doing really well for us. I want to go deep there because I like that. Anyway, I haven't had a chance to do that. Any of the health stuff really, really fascinates me. Matt: Why? I'm curious. Why are you drawn to that so much? The health stuff. Russell: Because I've seen with myself ... My history is I got in wrestling, at the PAC 10 tournament was my last actual wrestling match. My wife was giving herself fertility shots in the stomach during PAC 10 so the next month se was pregnant. So I got done wrestling, got done competing, got done running, got done lifting. All my athletic career ended, and then my wife got pregnant. She's eating for three kids, and I'm pumped because I don't have to work out right now, she's hungry, I'm hungry, we're eating. We just kept eating and eating. So over the next seven to eight months my wife gained like 60 pounds, I gained like 60 pounds. We were doing it together so who cared, it was amazing. Then one day she has two babies and she loses like 45 pounds and I'm like, oh crap. I'm stuck here. Where did you go? This for me? Matt: Yeah. Russell: Thank you. Then at that time the business was starting and I was stressed out trying to figure it out and I didn't get healthy again. I just was in that state of being 65 pounds heavier for years. But I didn't know the difference, I didn't know that I felt differently, because I'd never been in a spot where I spent eight hours sitting behind a computer, so I didn't know what good felt like or bad felt like. I knew if I tried to wrestle I'd puke, so I was like I don't feel like I'm an athlete. I just felt normal, I thought. Eight years in I was like, I don't know, I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, "Oh, what happened to you?" You know what I mean? I'm sure hopefully everybody's had a chance. I was like, huh. It was hard because in my head I knew how to work out, I knew how to train, I knew these things. Finally I was like, "I need to get a trainer." So I got a trainer for the first time. I'd never really done that before. Started going, and got me from I don't even know, 27, 28% body fat down to 12% in a matter of seven or eight months. I looked better, I felt better, but what's crazy is I could work twice as hard and twice as long. I wasn't tired. I was like, "I can keep going. My brain's on fire. This is amazing." Matt: Wow. Just from the ... Russell: I had no idea until I lost all the weight. All of a sudden it was just like, I can do so much more. I think, when I first met Anthony DiClementi the first time I was like, this is my problem right now. I am at work all day slaying dragons, doing all these things, I have this energy. I get home at night and my two little twin boys are there, and my little daughter, and I'm spent and I have no energy. How do I still be a present dad and how do I have these things? The next tier was the bio hacking stuff. How do you do these things? How do you increase energy? There's so many ways to do that, from light therapy to supplements to sleeping to sound to breath, all these crazy things that seem stupid. The first time Anthony's like, "We're going to do breath work." I'm like, "We're going to breathe? That's your bio hack? We're going to breathe together?" He's like, "Yeah, it's going to be amazing." I'm like super annoyed. What's the ROI on this, I've got to get back to work. So he sat me down in our gym. You've been in our wrestling room. He sat me down and he's like, "You have to sit because if you're standing you'll hit your head and you'll die." I'm like, what are you talking about? He sits me down and we do these breathing exercises where he's yelling at us and screaming. All this stuff is happening. If anyone's ever done deep breath work it's nuts. We're doing this thing where we're supposed to do this heavy, heavy breath work until he's like, what's going to happen is the world is going to ... Has anybody done jiu-jitsu here? Been tapped out before? Matt: Yeah. Russell: So you get choked out. What will happen, the carotid artery gets choked and the world starts shrinking like this. If you take pressure off it, it comes back to life. If you don't, it goes darker and darker until it disappears and you're gone, right? If you've never been choked out, that's what happens. It's a really fun experience. But you have the minute when you see it shrinking around you and then it's gone, right? He told me that's what's going to happen. You're going to breathe so much that the world around you is going to start shrinking. If you don't stop you're going to pass out. So we go all the way to where it starts shrinking, stops, and then when you hit that point you let me know and then you hold your breath for as long as you can. He's like, "How long can you hold your breath for?" I'm like, "Maybe a minute." He's like, "You'll do it for at least five." I was like, there's no way. So he says sit down, we're doing this breath thing, we're going like crazy and sure enough the walls start doing weird stuff. I feel like I'm on drugs. I'm sweating like crazy. We keep doing it. He's yelling at me. All of a sudden the world starts closing around me, I'm like, "What is happening?" And then he stops and is like, "Hold your breath." He starts the clock. I'm sitting here holding my breath forever, looking around. We had three or four of us guys all doing it at the same time. I'm freaking out. And then it starts getting quieter, things are slowing down, we're sitting there and then he's like let some of the pressure out but don't breathe in. Let pressure out, pressure out, pressure out, keep doing that, and it gets done and the stop clock is over five minutes. I'm just like, I just held my breath for five minutes. Matt: And you didn't even know it. Russell: Insane. And then the rest of the day we were on fire. It was just like, whoa. Right? We brought a cryo-sauna at our house and we go freeze in the cryo-sauna and the rest of the day you just feel ... That's the thing I love now, these little weird things. Light therapy, breathing, weird things that just seem stupid. You do it and you can go longer, you can think better, you can do stuff. All those things just get me so excited. Anthony's fun because he randomly will just ship me weird stuff in the mail. Just the weirdest things. It makes my wife so mad. It just shows up. There's a big old box. She's like, what's this from? I'm like, I'm hoping it's from Anthony, it's going to be amazing. Just weird things. Tons of stuff. I love that kind of stuff because the ROI on it is crazy. They're always these weird things. I have this headband someone sent me. You put this headband on, you put an app on and you start working and it just makes you not tired, makes you focused. These weird things. How does this work? I don't know. And they're like oh, it works because the waves over here sync your brain and change your brain waves and the creative state and all these things. I mean, I don't know how it works but I just wrote two chapters. Caleb: Do you do breath work every day? Russell: No, because it's so intense. If I had a coach who could walk me through it. I have a recording of Anthony doing it and I almost dread it because I know how hard it is. By the time you're done you're sweating. Caleb: I've got to get that recording. Russell: I'll get it to you. By the time you're sweating, you're like what just happened? I just breathed for five minutes. It's weird. Anyway, I would love to understand it on a deeper level but I don't understand a lot of the things now. Some of them I've gone deep on, but a lot of them I do without knowing why. I hate it because my wife will be like, "What's this do?" And I'm like, I don't know. Matt: Just love it. Russell: One of my buddies, Preston Eli, he wrote this blog post, he called it the Warriornaire Workout. In there he explains part of his morning workout. He's like, why do I do it? He's like, because Tony Robins does, and I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence. That quote goes to my head all the time. People ask me, why do you do that? I'm like, because I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence, that's it. I'm like, I don't know the reason why, Tony says so, therefore I will do it. I would like to understand it at a deeper level so I have a better response than I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. But that's a pretty good reason. Anyway. Matt: Real quick, does anybody else want to throw in a question for Russell? Anybody else here live with us? Caleb: Let me ask one more real fast. Because I want to. I want to ask this. We were just having sushi, I was asking you, what are some of the favorite periods of your life? One of them you said was wrestling, which I found funny because by far one of my favorite periods is baseball, which people wouldn't expect because obviously I've been on stage and all this other stuff and that should take the cake. But those moments when you're just on the field, you're in the zone, there's nothing better. Where, with what you get to do now, whether it's being live on a webinar or being on stage or whatever it is, where do you get the same feeling of wrestling? Do you know what I mean? You know, the feeling in your chest? Russell: Today while we were in line at the grocery store I talked to your dad about this. I said that the best feelings I ever had in my life were from wrestling. The feeling of winning a hard match that I wasn't supposed to win and getting your hand raised, I never felt something like that, that felt as good as that, ever. I've been searching in business to find that, and I've never found it. Speaker 3: Do you feel like sports is like business in any sense? Matt: Good question. Russell: For sure, yeah. There's a lot, for sure. What I was going to say is the closest I've ever gotten to feeling that is when you serve at an event and you see a table rush and you see not only people where they get the a-ha, but enough of an a-ha where it gets them to get up and to move. That's the closest I've ever felt to that. It's not as good, but it's the closest I've ever felt to that. Which is why I love doing the big things. I get a glimpse of that. Caleb: How close? Scale of one to 10. Wrestling's a 10. Where does that rank? Russell: If wrestling's a 10, I'd say it's about an eight. In fact it's interesting because when I first started in business I was racing for that, trying to find it, trying to find it, trying to find it. It took me years before I was like ... Matt: Is it disappointing? Russell: For sure, yeah. We launch today and make a million dollars and it's like, huh. That sucked. What else have we got. Give me something else. Matt: Exactly. Russell: The money goal is always what I thought was going to be the thing, and those always were just like, huh. In fact, literally one of the main reasons I did the Two Comma Club Awards, for me I need, maybe it's just from a decade of my life someone grabbing my hand and raising it. I was like, entrepreneurs need that. No one raises our hands. Two Comma Club Awards, for me, is me lifting their hands like you did it. I needed that, they need that. That's one of the main reasons I did that, because that's the equivalent of that. Anyway. Matt: How many millionaires have you created? Russell: This year we passed 1,000 people that won the two comma club award. We're over 120. Matt: How does it feel to say that? To say it? You know how sometimes it's like so many people that have passion or goals or huge dreams and visions, rarely do they really celebrate what's happening on the journey. Do you find yourself ever getting where your vision is so big and your passion is so deep that even saying things like there's 1,000 millionaires. Dude, that's huge. Man, 1,000 people that are millionaires because of you. Russell: I think the first time I really got that, probably the most impactful time, was the very first Funnel Hacking live that we gave away Two Comma Club Awards. It was the third Funnel Hacking live. It was a couple of months before that we had the idea of a Two Comma Club and an award, talking about that. I legitimately didn't know. I wonder if anyone in ClickFunnels has actually made a million dollars. I don't even know. So Dave went back and the database guys went through everything and I remember he came back and was like, there's 79 people right now that made a million dollars. I was just like, are you serious? Matt: Was it a boost of confidence? What did it do for you? Russell: It was one of those things, looking back on me doing these events where two people showed up and nobody showed up, hardly anybody, where I was so excited about this? I was like, how come nobody cares? To now it was like, this is actually, I've talked about this long enough people are believing it and now they're doing it. You start seeing it, and there's the fruits of it. In my mind I was like a million bucks, even then, ClickFunnel was new, I was like a million dollars is hard. Most of my friends I knew were like made somewhere near a million dollars. There were people who have been in this business for a long time. A million bucks is a big deal. That was most people's goal still. The fact that 79 people had done it, that was just weird to me. I think that was the biggest one, the realization that just like, oh my gosh. It's not just a theory and I think it works, it's working. It's working at a scale that was unfathomable to me at the time. 79 people. To go to 200 and then 500 and then 1,000 is crazy. Matt: What was your question, buddy? Speaker 4: You're talking about how at each level of success you hit, some of your mentors hit that ceiling, right? Because of the posturing, right? So ultimately I feel like when you get to a new level of success it requires you to upgrade your identity, your self image. What have you found is the number one routine, what's your process for upgrading the identity, upgrading your self image? Because I think that's so important because it can either hold you back and have you self sabotage and not take action and go after what you want, or it's going to be the thing that keeps you at that level and continues to propel you forward. What's kept you ... Russell: That's good. It's weaved through everything, right? The one that's the most obvious external, especially in our world, because you see marketers, most people when they first start selling whatever it is they're selling they're bragging about themselves. Here's my ad, here's my name. It's all about them, that's the first tier of it. And then the second tier, when they start having the realization, I feel like is when they stop talking about themselves and start talking about the people they've helped. Speaker 4: Mm. Russell: You see externally. You don't hear me talking about how much money I make. I'm not like, oh, check out what I got. I talk about all the other people. It's like, that's next year, is that. And then for me the third tier now, which has been really cool, is talking about Lady Boss, right? The success story isn't Kailin, it's Kailin's customers, right? So it's like that next tier. What you're talking about is like the external version of that. There's a lot of internal things that you've got to deal with, but you'll notice it shifting in people when you look at just their messaging and what they're saying. From the way they podcast, they video, they market, their ads and everything, it's the shift of it's not about me, it's about them. It's not even about them, that's the external version of it. Internally I think it's really, it's what we talked about, I can't remember why, but we brought up yesterday or today I had this really successful guy I met one time who the first time we met he was like tell me your story. So I was telling him the wrestle posturing story about how great I was. He was like, no. Tell me about the time you failed. So I was like, well, I'm in the middle of one right now. So I told him let me tell you. I told this whole thing. I remember afterwards I was so embarrassed. He's going to think I'm an idiot. You know, that fear? He was like, good, you cycled. I was like, what? He was like, I will not work with entrepreneurs who haven't cycled at least once. Because if they haven't then they still believe their own bio, right? I think that's the biggest thing, the internal version is that. The first time around, before you cycle, you think it's all you. I know for me it was. I remember doing this the first time, I'm like, I am a genius. I'm the smartest guy in the world. And then when it collapsed I was like, oh, there's a lot of things outside my control. This is not me. There is a team, there's God, there's all these other things that are making this possible. There's a scripture, I can't remember where it's at, it's the Bible, Book of Mormon, but it says you can either be humble or God will humble ... Ah, I'm misquoting it by far. But it's like God will humble people. You can be humble or he will humble you. So it's like, looking at that, I'm like round two I'm going to be a humble person because I don't want to be humbled again, right? Matt: I still feel it. Russell: This is not me. I understand, I look around now and it's 100% like there's no way I would be where I am right now if Dan Usher didn't make videos the way he does. There's no way I'd be here right now if Todd Dickerson could not code software the way he does. There's no way, all these things are so many people. Matt: You're so right. Russell: Then there's so many success stories that inside of it there's just so many people. And then there's the grace of God. I just look at the timeline of when ClickFunnels came into the market. I've now got funnels for a decade, nobody cared. Then all these things were happening, we started having the idea for ClickFunnels, started building it, we're creating it, and then literally we go to traffic and conversion, Todd's halfway done building ClickFunnels, and Ryan Deiss stands on stage in the biggest event at the time and he spends the entire four days talking about funnels. Talking about how funnels are the greatest thing. Everybody's like, what's a funnel? They're all taking notes. Me and Todd are like, does he know we're building? He's talking about funnels. He's talking about funnels like crazy. And then the next day everyone gets home from traffic and conversion and everybody that day, the next day 8,000 funnel consultants pop up. Everybody's a funnel consultant. Everyone is on Facebook talking about funnel consultants and teaching funnels and all this stuff. We're like, oh my gosh. Todd, get this software done, everybody's talking about funnels right now. So he's coding like crazy, all this stuff is coming around, all of a sudden everyone's like, millions of funnel consultants, everyone's doing it, and all of a sudden we're like, hey, we created this thing called ClickFunnels, here it is. All of a sudden all of the consultants and all the people and everyone came and we were the only platform. I look at that, as smart as I think I am, there is so much grace and timing. If I'd launched a year earlier, a year later, it would not have hit the way it did. 100% it was the timing of all these things that have to happen. If it wasn't for that ... I can act like I'm smart, I'm a genius, but man, there's so much divinity that came into all the things. There's no way it could happen without that. Anyway, just understanding those things. Matt: What did you learn when you were cycling? Russell: So many lessons. Russell, you are not that good looking. Or cool. Or anything. Matt: It's basically not about you, right? Yeah, I feel that. So what was hardest? What were the tough lessons? Caleb: How many times did you cycle? Russell: Two big ones for sure. Matt: Really? Do you mind sharing? Russell: Yeah, the first time was after I was trying to figure this thing out. I remember one of my buddies was like, you're making money online? I'm like, yeah. He's like, that's cool. I'm like, do you want a job? He's like, what? I'm like, you're the first person I know who's interested. I'll pay you to come hang out with me. He's like, all right. So I hired my friend. He's like, I have some friends too. I'm like, okay. So I start hiring all these people because I want someone to talk to. Anyway, it was really bad. I ended up having a whole bunch of employees nobody knew how to do anything. I didn't know how to train anybody. I was hiding in the room trying to make money to pay payroll while they're standing outside like, do you want us to do anything? I'm like, don't talk to me, I've got to make money to pay your payroll. They're like, we can help. I'm like, I don't have time to explain anything to you. It was horrible. I built it up to the point where it was just like, I was launching a new thing as fast as we could just to pay payroll. As an entrepreneur, you kill something you get to eat, right? It's like the greatest thing in the world. Employees, they want to get paid every two weeks whether they killed anything or not. I did not realize that until they were like we need money and I'm like, but we haven't made any money. They're like you have to pay me. I'm like, what? I'm so confused. Like, okay. Anyway, it had grown and we didn't have a model, sustainable. Speaker 3: You just launched stuff to see if it works? Russell: Yeah. When I was by myself it was like, I had an idea today, let's try it. You launch it, it makes some money, sweet. And then it was like, I made 20, 30 grand. It was my wife and I, so it was like, that lasts nine months. You know? Caleb: What did you sell? Obviously I know the potato gun backstory. You said I talked about funnels for like a decade before that. What were you selling during that decade leading up to ClickFunnels? I know it's an inordinate amount of stuff. Is there anything not even close to funnels, like something ... Russell: Yeah. The very first, pre-potato guns, my very first big idea was ... Back then what everyone was doing, you know who Yanik Silver is. Yanik would write a book and then he would sell the resale rights to the books. Someone else would buy it and they could sell it. I remember I got online, I saw these books, I bought a book from Yanik and I'm like, I can sell this. I bought a book from somebody else. I was buying all these eBooks I could sell. But then inside the books they would have links back to all their sites. I'd sell the book and I was like, I made 10 bucks selling the book. And then inside the book Yanik is selling his thousand dollar course and seminars and things. They make all this money. I'm like, I got 10 bucks. He made like $1,000 off of me selling his book. I remember being mad. I was like I wish there was a way I could brand this ebook so that before somebody opens it and sees his ad they'd see my ad. That was the first idea I ever had, ever. So my first product was called Zip Brander, it was this little thing that would take an ebook and it would brand it. You open it up and it popped up an ad. You see the ad and you click a button and it would take you inside the ebook. It was my first thing. We launched that and I sold 20 or 30 copies of it. But that was the first money I ever made, it was amazing. I had a customer list, I was like this is amazing. And then the way I was selling those, I was going to forums. This is pre-Facebook, so all you little kids, before Facebook, before MySpace, before Friendster, we used to go to these things called forums. They were these things where people would talk all day. So we'd go to these forums. One of the rules in the forums is you could comment all you wanted but you could have a signature file. At the end you could have like, Russel Brunson, check out my new software Zip Brander. I'd go to these forums and I would just spend eight hours a day answering questions and asking questions and everything. People see my ad on every little thing. My footer was on everything. That's how I was selling Zip Brander initially. I was in 50 forums posting like crazy but I couldn't keep up with it. I was like, man, if I could create a software that would manage this whole thing, that would be amazing. So my second product is called Forum Fortunes. It was this little software that would manage your posting on every single forum. You post and you could see if someone responded back on Forum 49 it would pop up and you're like, oh, you can go find it and go back and comment and keep the discussion. I made it for myself and then we started selling that. We sold more of those because I now had a little customer base here and went bigger. After that it was the next. It was always what's the next thing. That's kind of how it started back in the days, little tools and things like that. Speaker 3: How do you know when you're shooting all these bullets, how do you know when you shoot a cannonball? Matt: Good question. Russell: The thing about it initially, I had been married, I was making zero dollars a year as a wrestler, so for me to make $600 in a month, that was a cannonball. That was insane. I thought I was the coolest kid in the world. $600 was insane. So I did four or five little things. I remember it was Christmastime and I remember my wife wanted to buy a couch and it was a $2,000 couch. I was just like, oh, I can't afford that. I don't have a job. I'm getting sick to my stomach. I had this idea, what if I do a sell and just sell a whole bunch of crap that we had. I had a bunch of eBooks I bought rights to, a couple of things I had created, so we made this Grinch sale. I remember I wrote the copy, it was like, it was the Grinch Before Christmas or something. It had a picture of the Grinch and his heart growing three sizes, I don't know. I wrote this copy. My wife and I had been married a year, she really wants a couch, I can't afford a couch, so if you guys buy this, if I sell 32 of these things, I can buy her a couch and put it under the Christmas tree. It will be amazing. Caleb: You said that in the copy? Russell: In the copy, yeah. It was the reason why. I still have the page, I can show it to you. I know exactly where it's at, I can show it to you. So I had the whole page and then only an email list of like a couple hundred people at the time. I still had an affiliate program, so at the top it had an affiliate link. So I sent an email to my list and went to bed that night. Someone on my list was a guy named Carl Galletti, I haven't heard about Carl in a long time. He was a big famous copy writer at the time. Carl went and saw the thing, bought it, and started affiliating. So he joined the affiliate program, he was like this is awesome. He took that email, sent it to his entire list of this huge thing. So I go to bed. I wake up the next morning, we're at $10,000 in sales. Matt: How much before you went to bed? Russell: Oh, like $30, $40 or something. I was like, what just happened. Did I rob someone? I didn't know what happened. I looked at my email and there's all these people who were like, hey, I bought two of them, I hope you can get your wife that couch. Oh, I sent it to my friend. All these people. Because Carl promoted it, all these other people who follow Carl saw it. Carl is like it's converting like crazy. Tons of people are buying it. I'm freaking out. I'm going to wrestling practice trying to answer customer support. I'm late for practice, I ran into wrestling practice, I get back out I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I made like $600 in sales." I'm freaking out. Anyway, the whole thing goes through and over that, I think it was a seven day sale or something like that, we made $35,000. Which is more money than I'd seen in all my lifetime combined times 100, right? I paid probably 10 grand in affiliates. We made, I don't know, $25,000 that we got to keep. I was like, "Oh my gosh." I told Colette, and Colette's like, my wife. I love her. She doesn't understand the business part of things at all. I was like, "We made $25,000." She was like, "Is it illegal?" First thing. "Are you going to go to jail? Is it illegal?" I'm like, "No, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure." The first thing I did is I went and bought the couch for her, for Christmas. We got it back, I got a picture of her, sent it out to the list saying thank you so much, you got the Christmas gift, the couch. They all celebrated together, all the people. I was like oh my gosh, this is the greatest game of all time. This is so much fun. I was like, what's the next idea, what's the next thing. It was like that, these little things. After that one was done now I had way more customers, all these people that had bought my product knew who I was now so the next thing was easier so it incrementally kept growing and getting bigger. Somewhere along the line I launched the potato gun thing. Upsales of things. We didn't call them funnels back then. We called them sales flows or sales processes. Talk about your sales flow, what's your sales flow. Caleb: Sales flow. Russell: I remember Dylan Jones was our partner at ClickFunnels. Before Todd we tried to build something like ClickFunnels, we called it Click.com.com, which is a horrible name. But Dylan's, I still have all the UI images, and in there we had a whole section for sales flows and all these things. It's like, this was the first ClickFunnels. Because Dylan was on the UI eventually on ClickFunnels anyway, but we literally designed something like this five or six years earlier. Just crazy. Matt: Do you think that all those little failures and all the trying and that kind of energy is what brought you here today? Russell: For sure. It's the key. I wish I could grab everybody because everybody's like, okay, I'm waiting for my ClickFunnels, or I'm waiting for my thing. They're waiting and they're waiting and they're waiting. I was like, the reason why I got this thing was because I didn't wait. If someone were to give me ClickFunnels initially it would have been bankrupt in 15 minutes, right? You have to become worthy of the thing eventually. You don't become worthy by waiting, you become worthy by trying. And trying and trying and trying. Eventually, if you keep doing that, over time, then God's like, all right, he's going to do it. He's built 150 funnels, now I'll give him the idea. Matt: Wow, that's powerful. Speaker 3: How much more did you feel that all your other friends are in the same game? Matt: I hope you guys take there's more that's caught than Todd. That's some gold in what he just shared right there, what you were just sharing. But go ahead. What was the question? Speaker 3: I was just saying how much more would you fail if all your other friends were playing the same game? Russell: All my friends were like why are you launching more stuff? Why do you keep doing things? They do like one product launch a year. They got so annoyed. They were like, dude, stop doing stuff. I'm like, why would I stop doing this? This is so much fun. It was just confusing to me. Why don't you guys do more? Everyone, they make money they'd just be done. Caleb: Why would you keep doing more? Was it genuinely like one funnel away? Like this next funnel's the one. Were you just like you sold yourself on it, this is it, so you keep going? Or did you just really enjoy it? Russell: Well each one I thought was. Each one, every time I was so surprised, like this is amazing. That was the one. The next one's bigger. Oh my gosh, that was even better, who knew? And then I just kept going from there, you know what I mean? So I wasn't waiting for ClickFunnels or anything like that. I was just enjoying the journey every time. It was so exciting. Eventually it was like, oh crap, who knew that that was going to do what it did. Caleb: Was it all emails? Was there any ads or was there anything to scale the traffic? Russell: First 10 years was 100% emails, partnerships. There wasn't ads back then. I mean, there was Google ads, but the first initial Google slap happened about the time I was getting started. Prior to that a lot of guys I knew built their email list off of Google ads and then the slap happened. A lot of them had lists. I started getting to know those guys, going to events, meeting them, so that's how it started initially was tons of that. And then there was this big gap for years where paid ads weren't a thing. Some people did banner ads, but it wasn't consistent. It wasn't like it is nowadays. It was harder. You worked harder and all the stuff wasn't there. Mostly we focused on ... If you didn't have an email list, you weren't playing the game. It's like, who's got lists, how can you build lists, what can you do? Matt: You still think that's true to a degree? Russell: 100%. That's why the traffic seekers book was so important for me to write, I feel like, because most of the people in the game today have been blessed with Zuckerberg's simple Facebook ads that make the game easy. Matt: Wow. Russell: They've never focused on building lists. I was like, you guys, just so you know, Zuckerberg is going to screw us all. It's going to happen. Matt: Yeah. Caleb: It will happen. Russell: It's like, if you don't have a list you're all screwed. I've been through this for 18 years now, I've been through five or six cycles. I've seen people who made millions of dollars who now are not online. The people who have waded the storm the whole time are all the list builders. They're the ones who survived. Everyone else who's good at ads, they come and they go and they come and they go.

In today's episode, I share all of the open, honest, and uncomfortable things I am navigating in how my spirituality affects my relationship with my husband. As I have deepened my connection to spirit, I have started to face the difficult situations and conversations in my relationship head on instead of trying to avoid or run from them. This has opened up a lot of dialogue in my relationship that has not been addressed before, which has brought us into a new death season of our relationship. This means that all of these things being brought to the table are now needing to be discussed and needing solutions. I have learned so much in the course of my relationship about existing in our differences and having patience when it comes to what I need to feel content and what my husband needs to feel content. I am so thankful that in my relationship with Matt, I have had a safe space and container to be loved, respected, and encouraged to grow. Other Topics Discussed In This Episode: How I got to the point I am in now with my spirituality My personal stories with Matt How to lead your partner instead of pushing them Understanding what spirituality may look like to your partner if they are witnessing your wake up/growth Wounds and stories from past relationships and how they impact me now Creating new timelines and the struggle More Episodes You May Like: EP194: BTS of me being coached on Men, Intimacy and Queen Power EP 219: I'm Still Blocked: Studying the Integration of Healing Get the CBD I use HERE Follow me on Instagram HERE Check out my website HERE

Todd: Hello, Matt!Matt: Hello, Todd!Todd: Matt, I'm going to ask you some questions about pets.Matt: OK.Todd: First question, do you have a pet?Matt: Yes, my pet at my mom's house we have three pets; two dogs and a cat. My family actually raises dogs for helping blind people.Todd: Oh, really?Matt: Yeah.Todd: Wow, like how do they train the dogs?Matt: How do they train the dogs? Well, I mean it's a long process right? We get them when they're puppies and so we train them basic. You know, sit, come... really basic things. Then after they're about two year old they go to a different training school.Todd: Oh, wow. That's great!Matt: Yeah!Todd: Well, how many dogs do they usually train at a time?Matt: Oh, just one. We have our own dog and then we have a dog that we have that we are training.Todd: Oh, OK.Matt: Yeah, just one dog at a time.Todd: Do you ever see the dogs you trained like out on the street or anything?Matt: Sometimes we see them. They'll have like sort of conventions of reunions of the pets. Yeah, you get to see them every once in a while.Todd: Oh, wow! That's cool. Why do people keep pets?Matt: I guess the most important thing is companionship, right? So there is always somebody there for you that will like you no matter what.Todd: Yeah, that's true. OK. Besides cats, dogs and fish, what are some other pets people keep?Matt: Well, I guess if you are Siegfried and Roy you can keep a tiger or lion. I guess all types of things don't they?Todd: Yeah.Matt: I mean, my friend has a snake. I don't know if you mention that snake, ferrets and insects, spiders...Todd: OK.Matt: All kinds of things.Todd: All right. Yeah, like there is so many. What are some costs associated with keeping a pet?Matt: Food is probably the biggest cost. But also if you keep the dog, particularly a dog in your house when they are puppies and we have a lot of puppies they'll chew up everything they can so we're constantly replacing shoes and you know, cleaning up pee from the carpet and things like that. It can be a hassle.Todd: Yeah, OK. Thanks a lot Matt. By the way, where are you from?Matt: I'm from the U.S.A., from Minnesota.

Todd: Hello, Matt!Matt: Hello, Todd!Todd: Matt, I'm going to ask you some questions about pets.Matt: OK.Todd: First question, do you have a pet?Matt: Yes, my pet at my mom's house we have three pets; two dogs and a cat. My family actually raises dogs for helping blind people.Todd: Oh, really?Matt: Yeah.Todd: Wow, like how do they train the dogs?Matt: How do they train the dogs? Well, I mean it's a long process right? We get them when they're puppies and so we train them basic. You know, sit, come... really basic things. Then after they're about two year old they go to a different training school.Todd: Oh, wow. That's great!Matt: Yeah!Todd: Well, how many dogs do they usually train at a time?Matt: Oh, just one. We have our own dog and then we have a dog that we have that we are training.Todd: Oh, OK.Matt: Yeah, just one dog at a time.Todd: Do you ever see the dogs you trained like out on the street or anything?Matt: Sometimes we see them. They'll have like sort of conventions of reunions of the pets. Yeah, you get to see them every once in a while.Todd: Oh, wow! That's cool. Why do people keep pets?Matt: I guess the most important thing is companionship, right? So there is always somebody there for you that will like you no matter what.Todd: Yeah, that's true. OK. Besides cats, dogs and fish, what are some other pets people keep?Matt: Well, I guess if you are Siegfried and Roy you can keep a tiger or lion. I guess all types of things don't they?Todd: Yeah.Matt: I mean, my friend has a snake. I don't know if you mention that snake, ferrets and insects, spiders...Todd: OK.Matt: All kinds of things.Todd: All right. Yeah, like there is so many. What are some costs associated with keeping a pet?Matt: Food is probably the biggest cost. But also if you keep the dog, particularly a dog in your house when they are puppies and we have a lot of puppies they'll chew up everything they can so we're constantly replacing shoes and you know, cleaning up pee from the carpet and things like that. It can be a hassle.Todd: Yeah, OK. Thanks a lot Matt. By the way, where are you from?Matt: I'm from the U.S.A., from Minnesota.

Todd: Hello, Matt!Matt: Hello, Todd!Todd: Matt, I'm going to ask you some questions about pets.Matt: OK.Todd: First question, do you have a pet?Matt: Yes, my pet at my mom's house we have three pets; two dogs and a cat. My family actually raises dogs for helping blind people.Todd: Oh, really?Matt: Yeah.Todd: Wow, like how do they train the dogs?Matt: How do they train the dogs? Well, I mean it's a long process right? We get them when they're puppies and so we train them basic. You know, sit, come... really basic things. Then after they're about two year old they go to a different training school.Todd: Oh, wow. That's great!Matt: Yeah!Todd: Well, how many dogs do they usually train at a time?Matt: Oh, just one. We have our own dog and then we have a dog that we have that we are training.Todd: Oh, OK.Matt: Yeah, just one dog at a time.Todd: Do you ever see the dogs you trained like out on the street or anything?Matt: Sometimes we see them. They'll have like sort of conventions of reunions of the pets. Yeah, you get to see them every once in a while.Todd: Oh, wow! That's cool. Why do people keep pets?Matt: I guess the most important thing is companionship, right? So there is always somebody there for you that will like you no matter what.Todd: Yeah, that's true. OK. Besides cats, dogs and fish, what are some other pets people keep?Matt: Well, I guess if you are Siegfried and Roy you can keep a tiger or lion. I guess all types of things don't they?Todd: Yeah.Matt: I mean, my friend has a snake. I don't know if you mention that snake, ferrets and insects, spiders...Todd: OK.Matt: All kinds of things.Todd: All right. Yeah, like there is so many. What are some costs associated with keeping a pet?Matt: Food is probably the biggest cost. But also if you keep the dog, particularly a dog in your house when they are puppies and we have a lot of puppies they'll chew up everything they can so we're constantly replacing shoes and you know, cleaning up pee from the carpet and things like that. It can be a hassle.Todd: Yeah, OK. Thanks a lot Matt. By the way, where are you from?Matt: I'm from the U.S.A., from Minnesota.

Don't like ads?  Become a member for ad-free viewing at adjustertvplus.comMatt and James tackle your questions and tell some stories from the road.William W. says:  "I got [reprimanded] for writing an estimate that closely matched what a roofer's estimate actually came in at. It was a good and accurate estimate, but I had to tweak the XM8 criteria in order to get something closer to real world costs.But that got me thinking about how objective the pricing data is in XM8 and how much the carrier would be charged for estimates that would not require supplements. To re-phrase: accurate estimates increase an IA's fee tiers.  Those estimates would be a bit subjective and therefore cost more compared to the base level objective XM8 pricing data that we all know can be a bit low. When a contractor tells the carrier the actual costs, that estimate is not subject to fee tier increase.  So is it wrong to assume that by extension, the most advantageous thing (for the carrier), would be for me to write an estimate for one dollar above deductible, then the contractor could describe the actual costs that XM8 (and file reviewer) would not allow? Afterall, the carrier really doesn't have to pay the IA for a contractor submitted supplement."Justin W. has several questions, including:  Planning and executing for a deployment:Can you walk us through the deployment planning process, how you organize this? What has worked for you and what do you feel will continue to work in the future?Can you walk us through the deployment execution process, how do you execute?  What has worked for you and what do you feel will continue to work in the future?Do you ramp up the number of claims to perform per day as the deployment moves along on all deployments? (Example: I watched a video covering a 4-day work cycle. Starting a deployment with 2 claims per day than ever week after adding 1 more claim per day until reaching the max threshold for claims per day.)What does a typical day look like in the peak timeframe of a CAT deployment? (When the machine is firing on all cylinders) Would it help to look at this on an hourly breakdown basis? What is the breakdown of a 12 to 16-hour workday? How many claims within the day? Does the workday consist of an even balance of drive time, appointments, scoping, report writing, etc? Or is there more time devoted in a day to one particular area? Any examples would be very helpful.Would you say this is the most difficult part of the job? What do you think are the most difficult parts of the job as a whole?How do you balance work, personal errands, and family time?Jason M. - Can you talk about how to prepare and equip when called on a CAT that's a few hundred miles away by flight?Anonymous - I had a insured contact me through text message and asked me to “yank the shingles off the roof, before my adjuster gets here." He thought I was his contractor. And when I got out there it was pretty apparent that some of the damage was new. How do you handle that situation with the member? Do you just act like you never received the message?Story from Matt - How to deal with dogs - Beagle escaping and the dog pack that tried to get him in Omaha.

We’ve all seen it — maybe some of us have even fallen for the trick — you’re on an ecommerce site and a big “Wheel of Savings” pops up. This innocent-seeming discount offer, though, isn’t what it seems, and it’s doing damage to the end-user spinning the wheel, and the site the wheel pops up on. The world of malvertising and browser extensions has been causing headaches in the ecommerce world for years and brands are constantly looking for ways to fight back and regain control of their websites. Matt Gillis is helping with that mission. Matt is the CEO of clean.io, which offers real-time protection against malicious actors and code for some of the most-trafficked websites in the world. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Matt takes us through some of the methods bad actors are using to install malicious code on ecommerce sites, and he gets into the nitty gritty of why browser extensions like Honey and Wikibuy are hurting brand bottom lines, and why those extensions are making marketing attribution nearly impossible. But he also offers some solutions, too, so that ecommerce brands can finally win back control of the user experience. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Good Guy or Bad Guy?: Traditionally, malvertising is done by bad actors who infiltrate websites and take over through ads. But in the world of ecommerce, the bad actors are actually manifesting in the form of Fortune 100 companies that profit from website extensions like Honey and Wikibuy, which disrupt the user experience of the customer on the original ecommerce site. Solving that problem is the challenge for ecommerce brands that want to take back control.Sneakily Effective: In the malvertising world, the bad actors are at the top of the marketing game. They can achieve a 100% click-through rate at little to no cost because they are using sly, untraceable strategies. Targeting and eliminating those malvertisers is critical in order to level the playing field for ecommerce marketers to have success moving forward.Last Line of Defense: Publishing platforms hold most of the responsibility for the end-user experience. Everybody has a role to play in minimizing the risk of malicious buyers or advertisers, but ultimately, the publisher is the last line of defense against malvertising moving into the user experience, and they should be held accountable.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone. And welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles co-founder at mission.org. Today on the show we have Matt Gillis, the CEO at clean.io. Matt, welcome.Matt:Stephanie, thanks for having me. I'm excited.Stephanie:I am very excited to have you here. We were just talking about how cool your background is, and I think that's actually kind of a fun place to start of where you're at in the world. And tell me a bit about your background.Matt:Yeah. Hey, so I'm in Baltimore and we actually just took possession of this office in February, right before the pandemic. And so the irony is I've been here every day since the pandemic started pretty much.Stephanie:By yourself?Matt:But I'm by myself. So we have 4,000 square feet. We just did the mural right before the pandemic and no one on our team has been able to experience it pretty much. But yeah, cybersecurity company located in Baltimore, we're about 45 people, I guess you could say solving this problem of untrusted and malicious JavaScript that is ruining user experiences in revenue across the internet. That's us in a nutshell.Stephanie:Cool. Well, I am really excited to dive further into clean.io. Before we do that though, I was hoping you can kind of go through your background because I saw you've worked at places like AOL, you've been in publishing. You've been in ad space. Tell me a bit about what you did before you came to clean.io.Matt:So full disclosure, I'm old. And so I've been around a little bit. I've had some fun. But yeah, I think key things I've spent probably the last 20-ish or so years in a couple of different capacities. Right out of university, I started in the mobile industry and mobile at that time was just making phone calls, that's it. There wasn't even texting then.Matt:In fact, my job back in those days was I would stand on a golf course at a golf tournament and let people make free phone calls because that was the cool thing to do then. No one had cell phones and if they did, they were like those brick ones. You remember those ones that you couldn't fit in your pocket?Stephanie:Yeah. And you were the cool guy like, "I've got access to an awesome phone, anyone want in?"Matt:Yeah. And listen, men and women would come up to me and they'd be like, "Can I call back and check and see if I have any messages?" And so that was the cool thing to do then. I know it sounds so crazy that was a thing at some point, but yeah. So I worked at mobile operators in the early stages of my career.Matt:So I worked at Bell Mobility in Toronto, Canada. I'm from Toronto. And then I moved down here to work at Verizon Wireless. And at the end of my tenure at Bell Mobility and my tenure at Verizon, I was focused on some of the services that you live by on your cell phone today. So this was in kind of late '99 and then the early 2000s of things like video on demand on your phone, playing games on your phone, downloading ringtones on your phone, I'm sure you did that.Stephanie:Oh, ringtones, yeah [inaudible].Matt:They were, obviously a huge business at some point.Stephanie:Now if my phone rings I'm like, "Stop it, what are you doing? Who's calling me? Don't call me, text me."Matt:Put it on mute. Yes, exactly. So I was kind of part of the foundational days of things that you would do with your phone, before the iPhone. And then I went and took a swing at being an entrepreneur and joined a little small video game company. Our biggest game was Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? We did a lot of TV game shows. So we did, Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader? And things like that.Matt:So I kind of walked the mile as a publisher for a while and then Capcom, which is the Japanese video game company acquired us. So I ran their publishing business for a few years and I got to experience what it's like to be a publisher and how hard it is to make money.Matt:And that was kind of in those early days of the iPhone where I'd say to people, "You'll go and spend $5 on this latte, but you won't pay $5 for unlimited use of a game over a period of time." And this is back in 2008, 2009. And so we had a real struggle and people weren't wanting to pay for our games. They want them free and free became kind of the thing on the iPhone.Matt:And so recognizing that struggle, I actually joined this company called Millennial Media, which was one of the earliest mobile ads platforms for app developers, helping app developers make money with ads. Some of our biggest customers at the time were like Words with Friends, if you've played Words with Friends-Stephanie:Yes, I have.Matt:... ads in every game. So we were kind of one of the foundational tech partners with folks like Words with Friends and various other games across the internet and apps. Did that for eight years through an acquisition with Verizon and AOL. And then we acquired Yahoo. So I ran the publisher platforms business at the combined entity of those companies, which was awesome.Matt:And one of the biggest problems in my time over that period was this thing called malicious ads, or malvertising as they call it. You probably are familiar with when you're scrolling away on your phone and all of a sudden it redirects you and says, congratulations, you won an Amazon gift card. And you're like, "I didn't click anything." Or spin the wheel for your chance.Stephanie:Yeah. I did that once I fell for it. I was like, "Oh, I spun it." I couldn't help it.Matt:Never spin the wheel, Stephanie.Stephanie:I only did it once, but yeah, afterwards I'm like, "That was a bad call. Why did I do that?"Matt:Yeah. So it was a big problem in my past life. And there were a few folks that were solving this problem and two of them were folks that I had worked with at AOL. When I left, it was called Oath at the time, which is Verizon Media now.Matt:I went and had lunch with these guys and they told me that they were spinning up this company called Clean Creative and set to solve this problem of malvertising. And I didn't have a job and it was getting too cold to golf. And so I said, "Hey guys, can I be an intern?"Matt:And so I came and hung around for a couple of days a week. And I was like, "You guys are really onto something here because this was a massive problem in my prior life." And so I said, "Hey, can I have the keys?" And they obliged. And that's how I'm here, started as the CEO two years ago. And we've kind of been blowing it up ever since. That's awesome.Stephanie:Yeah, such a fun story. So what is your day to day look like now? And what's your best day in the office look like while you're there by yourself? Are you around skipping around bicycling around the big office? What is your days look like?Matt:I do pace and I get my steps in over there. Day-to-day, we're startup, so we're small. And so as any of your listeners would know at a startup you do everything, and you take the trash out and you sign big contracts, hopefully you raise money. You kind of do run the gamut. So it's a little bit of everything. If you've worked at a startup you know that generally speaking, there's epic highs and epic lows. And so you have those days where you are the king of the world and you and your team are high-fiving and celebrating. And that's a little different now because you got to do it all virtually.Matt:Part of being at a startup is you get that culture of everybody generally speaking, being in an office like this, but we're a widely distributed culture now. We were before the pandemic where we kind of had, I don't know, five or six or seven locations among all of our people, but now we have 40 locations. So it's just like any other gig except there's really no net underneath you. You're walking this tightrope and hopefully you get to the other side.Stephanie:Yes. I definitely feel that.Matt:It's fun though. Isn't that why you do it?Stephanie:I mean, yeah, it's definitely really fun. Other times you're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm responsible for so many lives." And then other days it's like, "This is fun." So it's a good balance.Matt:Yeah. I mean, I won't lie. I had months of sleepless nights when we were raising money. We most recently raised our series A and we started raising it in March, right at the beginning of the pandemic. And yeah, all these people's jobs, for me, the pressure was on me to make sure that we could raise money and continue on this mission.Matt:The reality is, is the people behind the scenes are the ones that actually made my job easy because they're the ones that enabled me to go and tell the story of our massive revenue growth and our massive traction and our product market fit and all of that sort of stuff.Matt:Startups are hard, but there's a reason that many people once you leave the big company and you actually go and take your swing, that becomes the thing that you keep doing and doing and doing because you like having that euphoric feeling.Stephanie:Yeah. No, I definitely agree. And I mean, I think it's a good reminder too, as the CEO at any company to kind of get out of your way and hire a team that can support you and do things, but then let you do the higher level things like selling, raising money, such is a good point for, I think a lot of business owners who want to kind of stay attached to, "I've always been coding." Or, "I always did this part of the business." You need to step away and find people who can step in for you so you can go on to the next thing.Matt:Yeah, and focus on your strengths. Don't try and overcompensate and really... We did this thing called StrengthsFinder with our leadership team. And it was really about figuring out what are the strengths across this group of people that are practically leading the company. And you go, "Okay, well, I'm really good at this, this and this. And you're really good at this, this and this. Wow. We compliment each other. I should continue to keep doing this stuff. And boy, we should just let you handle all of this sort of stuff." So yeah, hire a diverse team and hire people that are way smarter than you and you'll be successful.Stephanie:So how have you seen the digital security landscape change? Maybe even over just the past year or two, what new things are popping up, what should e-commerce owners be aware of right now that maybe wasn't happening last year or two years ago?Matt:I would say that where we cut our teeth was in this malvertising space and what it is, is malicious JavaScript that's kind of being injected into the user experience through ads. And what we've seen is that the bad actors, the people that are doing it, are getting even more sophisticated over time. They have figured out how to get around the systems. They've figured out how to get around the checks and balances.Matt:And we kind of stumbled into this e-commerce world where we were protecting, we're protecting some of the biggest websites on the internet. There's seven million websites that run our code. Probably many of the websites that you go to everyday either to get your news or to read entertainment gossip, or that sort of stuff if you do.Stephanie:No.Matt:I'm not saying you do Stephanie, but we protect all of those sites; every single page view on those pages, we make sure that the user experience is protected and revenue's protected. And by the way, in that world, it's folks that I would say, delivering malicious JavaScript. What we started seeing in the e-commerce world is there's this whole phenomenon of what I would call untrusted JavaScript.Matt:Now in either case, the premise is you own your website. You should be able to control everything that executes on your website. You should be able to protect your user experience. You should be able to dictate your user experience because it's your website. On the malvertising world, what we saw happening was if folks had ads on their website, they had lost control of the user experience. They had lost control of revenue because any bad actor could just buy an ad and take over the user experience and get you to spin the wheel.Stephanie:Only once, but yes.Matt:Only once, but it happened. And so in the e-commerce world, what we've noticed is there's a lot of stuff happening on e-commerce sites, just like there is in any website that is without the permission or without the authorization of the person who owns the site. The biggest problem that we kind of dug in and gone to solve for is, if you ever heard of these things called Honey or Wikibuy?Stephanie:Yeah.Matt:So these are Chrome extension, Safari extensions, Firefox extensions. They sit resident on the user's device and Stephanie, when you're out shopping on your computer and you get to check out, Honey will pop up and say, "Hey, I've got coupons for you. Do you want them?" You as the user you're probably like, "Yeah, I'd love to get a discount. I'd love a better price, if I can get it without having to do any work." Honey does all the hard work for you.Matt:We think that's not really in the best interest of the merchants because they own their website and now someone is injecting code in and disrupting the user experience, disrupting your revenue. So just like it is in this malvertising world, the same phenomenon is happening over here. The difference is Honey is owned by PayPal. Wikibuy is owned by Capital One.Matt:So the folks that I would call "bad actors" in this world are actually fortune 100 companies. They're folks that you would expect to be able to trust. And what they're doing is they're actually injecting code in to disrupt the user experience and disrupt revenue. And so that's the problem that we've gone out and solved.Matt:We just launched our product that's called cleanCART. And what it is is it's a Shopify app and it gives Shopify merchants the ability to protect their carts at checkout and make sure that they can prevent this sort of code from disrupting user experiences in revenue. So it really is giving control of the websites back to the merchants.Stephanie:Oh, interesting. So when you implement that you just can't get coupons or are there other pieces that it kind of protects as well, or the user can't see coupons from a Honey or something, or are there other things that your app is also protecting against?Matt:So we're in, I would say the second inning of the baseball game. So early stages. We're really focused on to start is blocking the automation of these coupons. So we don't want to block you as a user going in and manually inserting the coupon. We think that's the intended use case. But what we think is unfair is that someone is standing beside you at checkout and handing you a mitt full of coupons and actually not even handing them to you, they're actually giving them and just scanning them all to make sure that they all have a chance to work.Matt:If you think about this analogy, the grocery store would never let someone come and stand beside the checkout and save you 30% off your grocery order while you're already ready to pay. And I think that's the phenomenon that we're trying to solve for in the earliest days, which is, let's prevent the automation from happening. Let's not prevent people from manually inserting coupons. Let's give control back to the merchants because it impacts them in so many different ways. Obviously, it impacts them from a revenue loss perspective.Matt:I talk to merchants every day. Many merchants are complaining that these injections are literally scraping and pulling 30% off of their cart value at checkout. So someone who had $100 cart, they go to checkout, Honey runs and it knocks their cart value from $100 to $70. That's kind of bad for the merchant, especially if that person was going to convert anyway.Matt:The other key thing is Honey and Wikibuy and these other discount extensions have made it really hard for merchants to have discounting strategies that they can track. And so what's happening is that promo codes are ending up in the wrong hands. It's creating an attribution nightmare for merchants where they think that this social media influencer or this Instagrammer, or this YouTuber is driving tons of sales and lo and behold, Honey has grabbed that coupon and is injecting it.Matt:And now every order that comes through where Honey was present on the page is applying that person's code. And so now the merchant not only has bad data that is going to ultimately drive their marketing decisions but now, they're also losing revenue and they're paying out affiliate fees to folks that generally didn't deserve that affiliate fee. So I think it's created a bit of a nightmare.Matt:And so, we felt this kind of pent up demand for this product. And that's exactly what's happened is that no one has solved it. We think we're first to market. And we think it's important that people are fighting for the merchants. There's been 10 years of growth in e-commerce over the last year. The pandemic driving a lot of that.Matt:And we think it's important that merchants really get control of their websites, get control of their margins, get control of their revenue and really get the right data to make the right data-based decisions of how they're going to run their marketing programs.Stephanie:Yes. I think that's a really cool story. You were just talking about how you were looking at a problem that people were complaining about, and then now you guys are like, "Well, let's solve it." Because I've read, I'm trying to think where this was, where they're talking about going to Reddit and looking at some of the threads of people talking about problems that keep occurring and occurring and how you could build businesses just based off Reddit threads. And you guys did that, just looking at problems with what merchants were struggling with. So a really cool example of how to build a business is look at all the problems that are going on and jump at solving it.Matt:Well, and I think the other key thing here is as you know is solving the problem, but also during that process of your hypothesis that you're going to develop of what you're trying to prove, it's you also need to prove that people pay for it. And that's, I think part of the foundation of what we've built here, obviously on the malvertising side, but also on the e-commerce side is it's a big enough problem. People need to protect user experiences.Matt:If you think about just in the internet in general, it's very expensive to create content. It's very expensive to drive traffic. And once you've done those two things, why would you leave it to chance that someone might come to your website and have a crappy user experience? Protect your user experience.Matt:It happened last week on the Harvard Crimson on the crimson.com where somebody was on Crimson and they got one of these redirect ads that took them to this landing page that said, "Hey, you're a Verizon customer click here and take the survey and answer these nine questions and you'll have a chance to win." And this user actually took to Twitter and said, "Hey @thecrimson, which is, I think their Twitter handle, you've got a crappy user experience. Why are you letting this happen?"Matt:I never even saw a reply from the Crimson. But when we did some investigation on what was going on, they don't even have protection on their website. So it almost feels irresponsible at this day and age to not be protecting your asset because your asset generally speaking, isn't your website, your asset is your users.Matt:And so protect your users, make them feel confident that when they come to your site, they're going to have a great experience. And so that's really what we've focused on is just delivering technology that solves a problem that people are willing to pay for. Because obviously without that, we don't have a business.Stephanie:So when thinking about like the Crimson example, that's all from a bad ad being run on their website, correct?Matt:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Stephanie:Someone was able to buy that ad unit have bad JavaScript, and then that's when they were sent to that Verizon survey. I'm I thinking about that, right?Matt:You're totally thinking about that right. And what's interesting about the thread is that when this woman went on to Twitter and said, "Hey, this is what happened. And here's a screenshot," there were a whole bunch of people that piled onto the thread of like, "Oh, here's what I think is happening." "Oh, you have a virus on your computer." Or, "Oh, you have a bad extension on your computer or whatever." Everybody had a hypothesis of what's happening.Matt:And so we actually went and captured the threat and reverse engineered it and said like, "Here's exactly what's happening." And yeah, it's all coming through ads in that case. And there's so many great things of the open programmatic ecosystem.Matt:So programmatic media being able to buy a single oppression at a time by single user real humans, real devices, real networks, like you know I'm having a one-to-one engagement with this person and in the malvertising world, that's a feeding ground for bad actors because they get to do the same thing.Matt:And quite frankly, they're better at it than any other advertiser out there because they're the ones who know how to pay 20 cents CPM and buy an ad and actually get 100% click-through as opposed to the rest of the world that's just hoping that they get a half a percent click-through rate. And so they figured out how to buy that ad, that ad renders on your device.Matt:And then usually it's like an onTouchEvent. So when you actually just touch the device, they put a transparent overlay on your device. And that turns into a click or they'll auto click something on your behalf, or however they decide to inject their technology. But yeah, it's as simple as that. And I think it's lucrative, otherwise-Stephanie:They wouldn't be doing it, yeah.Matt:What they do is they try to do it at the lowest possible level without getting caught. So if you think about sophisticated marketers, what do you do? Well, you pick the right users, you maybe frequency caps so that you don't lambaste them with ads. You want to hit them at the right time with the right message and all that sort of stuff.Matt:And so these bad actors have figured out how to very elegantly and in a sophisticated fashion, they'll hit you with that ad. But the reality is they'll probably frequency cap you to one so you can't reproduce the experience and that's how they evade getting caught in most cases.Stephanie:Yeah. Very interesting. I didn't understand the whole backend of how that works. I mean, I do spend a lot of time thinking about building incentives for advertisers because we build up our own ad networks to advertise our podcast and we bring on partners all the time.Stephanie:And it's really funny thinking through how to build incentives for especially newer advertisers when you might say something like, "Oh, we'll incentivize you based on a download." Then all of a sudden you're getting all these fake downloads. No, not downloads. We'll incentivize you based on consumption. Like, does someone listen to the episode? They wanted to hear it.Stephanie:And then you see instead of actually having good people come through and consume the episode, the advertiser will say, "Okay, I'll pay you to review the ad or review the podcast, which makes it show that you were consuming it because you had to for maybe a minute to then be able to review."Stephanie:And it's always interesting trying to figure out, I mean, and these people are not good actors maybe, I'm not really sure. But it's always very interesting thinking, how do you incentivize people to do the right thing and actually deliver and not try and always get around the rules and just meet a number which I'm sure a lot of the platforms deal with the same kind of thing, but-Matt:It's interesting you use the word incentivized, and that was a dirty word in the early days where most advertisers didn't feel that the word incentivize was a good user because they didn't truly have the intent to do the thing that you want because they were being paid or a bounty or whatever the thing is.Matt:I saw the evolution of incentivized in my mobile career where it became really hard to get people to consume video commercials, like 15, six second whatever that metric was. And in the games world, they figured out this thing and they actually rebranded it instead of calling it incentivized video, they actually called it rewarded video. And-Stephanie:I feel like that's a little more, I don't know.Matt:Well, listen, and so I talk about one of the apps that I love is this app called Candy Crush. And I've been playing candy crush for almost 10 years now, I think. And when's the last time you played the same game for 10 years? Like never?Stephanie:Yeah. That's impressive.Matt:But they've artfully integrated video into their app. And I think if you run out of lives, you can watch a 30 second spot that is unskippable. So you have to watch the whole thing. And then if you, do you get rewarded with that extra life or whatever it is, maybe a lollypop, I don't know. But yeah, so I think there's different ways to approach it. But you're right, usually when you figure out the bounty, everyone else figures out how to capitalize on the bounty.Matt:And I think the interesting thing with Honey and Wikibuy is they've figured out how to get paid for the bounty or get credit for the bounty when lo and behold, they didn't really do anything. All they did was they had code that was resident on the machine that allows them to kind of get credit for that user purchasing when I think it's questionable whether they had any influence on that.Stephanie:Yeah. I've kind of thought that too, when seeing different Instagrammers with their promo codes for e-commerce site. And I always thought like, "Oh, how does that attribution work?" Because I mean, she's sharing it here, but I'm sure it's very easy for someone who doesn't follow her to also find that code outside of a Honey, but just be like, send it to my friend, "Hey, use this code." They never even followed her and now, they've got 25% off or something. So it does seem like attribution can be tricky, even if someone's not using Honey. How do you think that world's changing right now to make it easier for merchants to track where their sales are actually coming from? It feels very messy.Matt:Oh, I agree. I think it's a total mess. That's why we focused on the automation because I think that's one of those low hanging fruit, but big problems. Honey will tell the world that they have 17 million or so users. I don't know if Wikibuy which is now called Capital One Shopping, I don't think they announced how many users they have. But what I can tell you is both of those companies are spending a tremendous amount of money acquiring new users.Matt:Every time I log into Twitter, usually the first ad that I get is from Honey. All throughout the Christmas season, the holiday season just recently Capital One which owns Wikibuy Capital One Shopping, they were running TV commercials for this product with Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta. So there's like a tremendous push for them to grow these user bases.Matt:In talking with merchants and we've got, I don't know, we've got maybe 25 merchants using our product right now. And we're in closed beta. That problem that you just mentioned, which is, "Hey, I worked with an Instagrammer and I gave them a code. And all of a sudden two days later, I've had a vitamin company tell me that story. I've had a sporting goods company tell me that story. I've had a toilet paper company tell me that story.Stephanie:They're using Instagrammers?Matt:They're using Instagrammers. They're using YouTubers. They're actually using podcasts as well.Stephanie:I mean, interesting to see how they're partnering on toilet paper.Matt:Because they're partnering for the audience on these podcasts and they're hoping that they can get that audience to find out about their product and again, then they're incentivizing them to come and become a customer. It's basically the same net story. The vitamin company told me they're like a supplement company. They partnered with one of the biggest triathletes in the world.Matt:Let's just say they had 50,000 or 100,000 followers, but you've got to imagine they're probably rabid followers. If you're into that, then that's probably the gold standard of who you would listen to. And that person did some blog posts and did some Instagram posts and posted their code and as soon as it happened, they saw a surge in sales attributed to that person.Matt:Now, the marketing person at the company was like, "Oh my gosh, we figured it out. We nailed this. We knew that people would be rabid about that person's content. We knew that person had so much influence to get people to come and buy." And then they're like, "Oh my God, it's Honey." Because literally they went from zero sales to 80% of their sales that had coupons was that person on Monday.Matt:I think it's a frustrating problem. And I think the sophisticated marketers have woken up and are like, "Man, we're bleeding money." One merchant told me that when they started kind of parsing out the attribution that Honey was costing them. They did about a million and a half in revenue online per month, so call it a $15 million business give or take. They believed that these promo code extensions were costing them about 150 grand a month, 10% their overall value.Stephanie:I mean, we just had a guest who they ranted about their hatred of Honey, I mean, even on the show. So I think it's maybe a couple episodes before maybe when yours is going to go out.Matt:Call me. We can help.Stephanie:Yeah, I'll send the link so you can hit him up.Matt:Absolutely.Stephanie:He was not a happy dude about Honey. But I guess when I think about promo codes, it kind of feels archaic to me. Maybe this is just a me thing, but it feels like where QR codes were where all of a sudden they're gone and you don't even think about them anymore. Promo codes kind of feel like that to me too of just, it feels like a manual old way of attributing things.Stephanie:How do you think about attribution when it comes to influencers and stuff or anyone, without having to use a code? Are you guys even thinking about a new way of doing things or do you hear of people trying new ways of attribution that isn't like I'm putting in a manual like Stephanie 20, to get my 20% off? Is there a new way of doing it?Matt:I mean, we're thinking through all those things. I think the challenge is specifically if you're using these one-to-many mediums. In a perfect world, I think you'd have a unique code for every user and so you'd have to authenticate. We'd know that that code went to you Stephanie and if you redeemed it, I would know that you actually bought something and you bought something because of this engagement that we had. I think in these one-to-many mediums it's, how else can you do it? And some of the challenges that the one-to-many mediums like think of YouTubers.Matt:One of the companies that we're working with has a problem where they have a very high dollar ticket item. Their item that they're selling is about 1,000 bucks. And obviously, if somebody grabs a code of 20% off that you're losing 200 bucks, it's a lot of money. Their problem was that they were doing YouTuber videos and they were publishing a code within the YouTube video to reach the audience. And for them, it was extreme sports, the audience that they were going after.Matt:Well, literally the next day, and I don't know if you know how Honey works. If you have a Honey on your machine, the very first thing that Honey does is it scrapes out anybody who manually puts a code in. So in order for Honey to be able to grab that code, it has to happen once where a real person saw the code and was motivated to go and type it in and buy.Matt:If that happened to me, if I got that code, I would go in and type it in. And if Honey were on my machine and then I hit okay, Honey will scrape that code out and now everybody who comes after me gets access to that code whether they saw that YouTube video or not.Matt:The problem for this company is spending a lot of money engaging with YouTubers and creating videos and obviously, doing the presentation layer of these offers. Well, once Honey gets a hold of the code... And what they've also found is that Honey and the other extensions, are not very merchant friendly. The relationship between Honey and these merchants is actually quite adversarial. And so it leaves them with no other option.Matt:I guess the two options: one, you just keep running your YouTube thing and you resign yourself that you're going to be paying out a 20% discount to everybody who comes and has Honey; which that stinks, that doesn't feel right or you need to reach out to the YouTuber. You need to recut the video. You need to recut the voiceover. You need to kill that code. You need to put a new code in. And so it's made this sort of marketing endeavor with YouTubers and Instagrammers and you name it very hard, because you're actually turning off codes.Matt:We saw one email which was interesting. I always say to people, let's remember we're all consumers too, you and I buy stuff on the internet, even though we're deeply entrenched in the businesses that we're running. I have Honey on my machine, so I can understand what that user behavior is, so that I can actually talk with merchants.Matt:One of the folks on our team bought a pair of shorts from one of these companies that advertises on Facebook and Instagram. And they were out of stock after he had ordered it, so they sent him an email. And they said, "Hey, listen, sorry you didn't have it but guess what, here's a code. You'll save X percent. But please, make sure you use it within the next 48 hours because Honey has been grabbing our codes and we're going to shut this code off."Matt:How can people market, if you constantly have to play whack-a-mole. And if you now think of the analogy, it's back to what we do in the malvertising side. If you aren't going to solve things with software, you're basically playing this long cat and mouse game that you won't win.Stephanie:I mean, that's why I think about merchants turning on and off codes.Matt:It's a nightmare.Stephanie:We were handing out swag and me just trying to... I had unique links that could work for more than one person and just thinking, "That could be tricky and go really bad." But I guess that's why I just think codes just feel, like I said, a little bit archaic. Why can't I just go to a YouTube video?Stephanie:I mean, the internet knows so much about me and where I'm at anyways. It should say, "Hey, Stephanie watched Matt's video where he was talking about this toilet paper." And then all of a sudden she's at our website, you can say, "Stephanie, a 20% coupon awaits you when you go here."Stephanie:And then when I get there it should know who I am and then be like, "Your coupons applied. And it will be applied for the next three days on this website or whatever, because I know where you've been and what you saw and where exactly you came from." Why can't it just work?Matt:I mean, I wish it was all that simple. Listen, we are taking obviously, technology solution to what we think is a longstanding and challenging problem. And in the malvertising world, the people in ad operations were literally playing whack-a-mole. Like, "Let's figure out where this bad ad came from." "Turn that demand source off." Or, "Turn that buyer off." And guess what, the bad actors, they just pop up again.Matt:And so we believe that, and I've seen and talked to merchants who are like, "Listen, here's how I solved the Honey problem." And they're like, "We actually created promo codes for 10% off, but the promo code was Honey is stealing your data."Matt:Because if you use Honey, you know that when Honey pops up it'll actually tell you the codes that it's implementing. They went on a mission to discredit and put the fear of God in their buyers that Honey was doing... They were like, "Honey is doing nefarious things with your data." And guess what, Honey D listed them as [inaudible].Stephanie:Well, there you go. Now, you know how to do it, I guess.Matt:The irony is, is that was three months ago that I talked to that merchant. And yesterday they cameback in and said, "Listen, we have a problem again."Stephanie:Honey added us again.Matt:No, this time they've got a Wikibuy problem. The problem is going to be never-ending, I think. Ultimately, we're hopefully going to give e-commerce companies the tools that they need to go out and be able to operate their business and focus their time on the things that really matter, in my mind, which is driving incremental revenue; not playing whack-a-mole with your promo codes and having to go recut YouTube videos. Hopefully, that's one of the big things that we help solve for.Stephanie:That's cool. I mean, I do like the idea of that one merchant you were mentioning where they said, "If you act within the next 48 hours or whatever, it'll only lasts this long." And I just had a guest yesterday who said that. I think it was either Burger King or McDonald's made it so if you're within 20 feet or something of a McDonald's they would send you a code and say, "You have five minutes to get to a burger King to get a free burger or something."Stephanie:And I'm like, "That's interesting." That's a good way to make people act quickly if you know something's expiring, I know I act a lot quicker. But I mean, of course, solve the problem that's number one. But I do think that's an interesting marketing tactic too.Matt:And make it measurable. I think that's the key thing is that... I often say, "What gets measured gets managed." And so hopefully, what we're doing is we're taking one of the things out of the equation that is making measurement really challenging for merchants. Again, using the triathlete example, yes, the marketer was high-fiving the rest of their team going, "We finally solved this." And then when they actually looked at the data they were like, "Damn it. I guess we got to go back to the drawing board."Stephanie:It's also just so tricky too, knowing how much of those people would have bought otherwise or not. So even looking and being like, wow, we have all this attributed to this one promo code and maybe it was because of Honey. But how many of those people would have bought if there wasn't some promo in there? It's just hard to know.Matt:We're solving that problem. We're giving merchants some deep analytics on exactly what's happening on their site, because we think there's a blind spot there where they don't know. For instance, how many users actually came to your site that actually had an injection capability? One of the extensions of Honey, Wikibuy, Piggy, Amazon Assistant, you name it. So we give them that lens.Matt:And then we give them the lens of, what were all the promo codes that they tried to inject? What was the most popular promo code? And stack rank those things and then going deeper down to conversion rate. And guess what, what we're seeing in these early days is that when you block Honey and Wikibuy at checkout, the vast majority of users actually still convert.Matt:And so that to me is the icing on the cake which is, guess what, you take control back of your website. You take control of your margins. You take control of your revenue. You now have the data you need to be able to go out and drive incremental sales. We think that's pretty powerful.Stephanie:I mean, that makes sense. I've heard a couple of times that also, discounts don't matter as much as you would think. I think they were talking about, they did a study between 10% off and 20% off. And actually, they were kind of the same when it came to consumer happiness. And what can be worse though, is if someone has the ability to go in and put a promo code in or something and then it doesn't work.Stephanie:I don't know if you remember those days of just going to the internet promo code for macys.com and trying out 10 different promo codes and all of them failing. I was way more unhappy then, than just not having one at all, just buying at full value.Matt:Let me tell you the opposite of that which is the worst-case scenario, in one of our merchants experience and that's why they're using our software. They're in the home interior space, so they do drapes and carpets and wallpaper and all that sort of stuff. And they were trying to build favor with interior designers because they wanted interior designers to know their site and know their stuff and all that sort of stuff. And so they did a very exclusive but unfortunately, a promo code that Honey got ahold of that gave interior designers 50% off.Matt:Well, lo and behold, as soon as one designer used that code and also had Honey on the machine, that code then got swept up in the Honey and everybody, every order that had Honey was now getting 50% off. Their customer service nightmare was that they couldn't afford to give every consumer 50% off, so they actually had to cancel orders; believe it or not.Matt:They called customers and said, "We can't honor your order with that coupon because that coupon was not intended for you." Created a customer service nightmare for them. And that's what they want to do is, they want to control their user experience. They want to control their revenue and their margins.Stephanie:Oh my gosh, that's horrible.Matt:Out of control. But think of that disaster of having to call someone and say, "Hey, I know you wanted to spend $500 with me, but only pay me 250 bucks. I can't give you 50 off but I can give you like 15 off, that's kind of what you were probably entitled to." So anyways, just trying to get control back in these merchants hands and let them control their destiny.Stephanie:I love that. When thinking about back to the now advertising piece, how much do you think it's on the publishing platforms? Is it their responsibility to make sure that they continue to increase their efforts to make sure bad actors aren't out there anymore?Stephanie:I mean, I know they're probably doing a lot. A lot of people like to hate on the publishing platforms and they want them to always do more and more and more. Is it maybe on them or maybe not on them anymore to continue to try and track those bad actors, who like you said are kind of popping up here and then they shut down and then open up a new account and do one off things and then shut down again. How should we think about leaning on the platforms like that?Matt:Well, I say to folks, the value chain in that industry is actually quite wide. And so from the bad actor who's putting their hands on the keyboards to the consumer, there's a whole bunch of players in the middle. I think it's on everybody to really have defenses in place and to make sure that they're protecting...Matt:So if you're at the front end, if you own the demand side platform that the bad actor's using, you need to have your own checks and balances to make sure that you're not bringing in malicious buyers. But all through that value chain, the onus is on everybody. But at the end of the day what I say is, the only person that can be responsible to that end user, is the publisher.Matt:Pick your publisher, if you are Fox News or you're the New York Post or you're the Washington Post, you're the one that has that ultimate relationship with Jenny or Johnny consumer who is surfing your site and consuming content. So you're the last line of defense. You're the one that created the site. You're the one that drove the traffic. You're the one that is using ads to monetize your traffic. It's really on you I think, ultimately.Matt:Now the publishers, all those folks that I named and there's millions of them, they all want to look upstream and they should. And they should hold everybody accountable upstream. But I think they're the ones that are really the that last line of defense.Matt:Because if you go to one of these sites and you have a crappy experience, you don't really care that it came through an ad. Like the woman at Harvard Crimson last week, she didn't know the origins of why it happened. And here's the other crazy thing, she knew that when she went to the Crimson, she was delivered a crappy experience.Matt:Now, the crazy part. First time we've ever done it, we actually did a private webinar with the end user because we wanted to explain to her here's exactly what's happening. She told us this story, she said, "Listen, I use ad block." And obviously, the risk to publishers are, if you don't create great experiences, your users are going to start using ad block.Matt:What she said was, in the desire to get real news and in the desire to really understand what's going on in the world and in the desire to actually make sure that real news publishers are actually getting compensated, she turned her ad block off and this is what happened.Matt:So shame on the Crimson for not delivering a great experience, because guess what? Now that user's like, "I'm not turning ad block off the next time I come to your site. You're not going to get paid for the traffic that I'm going to generate." So again, it really goes back to the publishers, the onus is on them.Stephanie:And thankfully, I think there is like new technologies popping up that maybe we'll be able to enable them or even just thinking about implementing. I mean, I've seen some advertisers looking into blockchain and having that as being kind of like a more source of truth to be able to know a one-to-one relationship and knowing who's behind... You don't know exactly who's behind what, but if you have it in a way where they sign up and they can't just start creating a million different accounts because they've got their one single one that they can go off of, it seems like there's a lot of ways that it can improve over the next couple of years that maybe hasn't been so easy the past decade or so.Matt:I agree. Obviously, there's industry bodies all trying to figure this out together. There's companies like us who are innovating and coming up with new and unique techniques to block these sorts of nefarious actors. I do think the biggest and most important thing is to recognize that the bad actors aren't just sitting still waiting for somebody to solve this problem. They're innovating honestly, a more rapid rate than many of the industry leaders that you would expect that have hundreds or thousands of people trying to solve this problem. Bad actors unfortunately, are innovating at quite a rapid pace.Matt:So the problem I think is going to evolve and change. We've seen it evolve to not just being ads but obviously, compromised Chrome extensions that just seems to be a great vector. And so I think you're going to see the problem move around and especially, if there's a lot of money in it. If there's ways for these guys to make money, you're going to see them salivate with... You're going to put up this defense and they're going to figure out this way to get around it.Matt:And there's so many different browser types. There's so many different machines. There's security flaws. There's zero-day. There's so many ways for these guys to actually buy and target, to only focus on iOS 13 and below and blah, blah, blah to reach their audience.Stephanie:So tricky. Hopefully, it'll get solved over the next decade. Cool. Well, with a couple minutes left, let's move over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Matt?Matt:I am ready.Stephanie:All right. First the harder one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?Matt:Listen, I think it's been the gold rush for e-commerce merchants over the last year. In many cases I talk to merchants, they're like, "It was raining money last year." Sales were up five X, 10 X, who knows. I think the next year is going to be that year where folks actually look to efficiency, and they look to figure out where there are holes in the boat that they haven't had to look before.Matt:And I think that plays to our product because I think in many cases when it's raining money, you almost turn a blind eye to some of these sorts of things. But I think now folks are like, "Listen, if I can be more efficient. If I can take control of my revenue and my margins, I'm going to do that."Matt:So I think that's probably, this is the year of people now are catching their breath and they've figured out their distribution and they've figured out their fulfillment and their warehousing and all that sort of stuff and the panic that they had to do to keep up with the pandemic growth. Now, I think it's a deep breath of like, "Okay. Now, let's look at the math."Stephanie:Yeah. I agree, that's a good one. What one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Matt:What one thing do I not understand. I think the affiliate landscape is complex. I think there are a lot of legacy ways in which people have calculated incrementality and I'm not sure if they're all believable. And I hear a lot of feedback from merchants where it's kind of like they just brush it under the rug and they're like, "I know I'm probably paying for stuff that I didn't really get, but let's just let it go." I think every percentage point matters. That ecosystem, because I hear there's good guys and there's bad guys and I'd love to really dig deeper on that. And I think that's a big opportunity for us as a company.Stephanie:That's a good one. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Matt:Wow. The nicest thing that anyone's ever done for me.Stephanie:I like to go deep.Matt:Yeah. That's a deep question. I think I've been fortunate throughout my whole career in that, I have been given opportunities that I probably wasn't ready for. And by the way, I had never been a CEO before I was at this company. And so, who knew that I'd be able to do it.Matt:But I think it actually starts way back to when I first graduated and I was seeking my first job. And I had a mentor that took a risk on me and gave me my shot. And I worked my butt off and hopefully that translated and he and she felt great about what I was doing. So I think the nicest thing, I've just been given opportunities that I don't think I deserved and hopefully I earned that respect and trust over time.Stephanie:That's a good answer. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Matt:Wow. This lightning round is hard.Stephanie:Good. Needs to be.Matt:If I were to have a podcast. I love gadgets. I'm one of those guys that buys the infomercial type stuff. I bought one of those Rotisserie Showtime girls 20 years ago, I still use it.Stephanie:Worth it.Matt:Maybe it could be interviewing people who've built made for TV products and really understanding the backstories behind how they came up with the idea and how successful they were and God knows how much money we all made them.Stephanie:That's good. We had Kevin Harrington on the show, he was the original OG shark in Shark Tank. He basically made the infomercial. And it was very interesting hearing his perspective of how it started, where it's at now and Shark Tank.Matt:I'm fascinated by that ecosystem, it's super cool. And by the way, I always do buy one of those stupid things for my wife for Christmas and she hates me for doing it because she's like, "You're just burning money."Stephanie:I had fun buying it and watching the infomercial today.Matt:Believe it or not, one of my coworkers gave me a Squatty Potty for Christmas.Stephanie:I actually feel like those have good value though, the science is there. It's just a weird thing to buy your wife, if you got that for her. Someone gave it to you, got it.Matt:I was given it, by one of my coworkers, "By the way it works."Stephanie:And their marketing, I think that's the Harmon Brothers who did their marketing with the whole unicorn and they did the Poo-Pourri thing.Matt:Oh yeah, it's super cool. I love those kind of gadgets.Stephanie:That's a good one. I would listen to that show. All right. And then the last one, what's up next on your Netflix queue?Matt:Well, on my Netflix queue, I think I've got three episodes left on the Queen's Gambit.Stephanie:Love that show. That was a good one.Matt:I'm a documentary guy. I actually will tell you that I've been kind of hooked on HBO Max for a little bit. And I just finished the Tiger Woods documentary last night, which was fascinating. Nothing that you hadn't been told before. This guy through adversity has come back multiple times; knee surgeries, winning on a broken leg. So I'm into those sorts of stories. One of my guilty pleasures is The Bachelor, so it's on my DVR. I'm playing catch up on that.Stephanie:That's great.Matt:I love reality TV and that sort of stuff.Stephanie:I like where your head's at, me too. Well, Matt, this has been a very fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and clean.io?Matt:So you can find me at matt@clean.io. So if you want to send me an email, obviously happy to help you guys in any of your challenges and would love to hear your challenges if they're similar or if they're different than ones that we're solving for. Hit me on LinkedIn, so you can find me there. And our company website is clean.io.Stephanie:Awesome. Thanks so much for joining us.Matt:Thanks Stephanie. Thanks for having me.

How do you feel when you’re forced into doing something that is doomed to fail? What if things do not work out as you planned them to be? Do you wallow in despair? In today’s episode, Matt Del Negro, actor and athlete, sits down with Sharran and shares his process for navigating through failures and how his experiences led him to write the book 10,000 NOs. If you or someone you know is going through some rough times, heed Matt’s advice: Give yourself a period to be sad, get up, put the hurt aside, and get back to work.  “Don’t wallow in it, get up, take your medicine, feel the pain, process it, and then you’ve got to move on.” – Matt Del Negro In This Episode: - The Wizard of Oz and Matt’s first acting audition - Matt’s first journal and The Art of Authentic Journaling - How Matt wrote his book in a month: “I wrote it before I wrote it.” - Signs from the Universe: The First YES and external validation for Matt - How do you accept a NO and what to do when your plans don’t work out - Compartmentalize and Integrate: Matt’s weapon, shield, and strategy for handling rejection and moving on - The power of character development and learning from great actors - What 10,000 NOs mean to Matt and how his experiences transformed his life Resources: -https://www.10000nos.com ( Matt’s Podcast) Connect with Matt Del Negro: -https://www.instagram.com/10000nos/ ( Instagram) - https://twitter.com/10000nos (Twitter) Connect with Sharran: - https://www.sharran.com/ (Website) - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sharran/ (LinkedIn) - https://www.facebook.com/likesharran (Facebook) - https://www.instagram.com/sharransrivatsaa/ (Instagram) - https://twitter.com/sharran (Twitter)

Sometimes an opportunity comes along that’s too good to pass up. For Matt Hulett, that happened when a friend approached him about a job at Rosetta Stone. The famous language-learning company was stuck in the analog world and they wanted Matt to be the guy to bring them into the digital future. It was no small feat, but Rosetta Stone has made progress on the digital transformation and Ecommerce journey, including introducing a subscription model and overhauling its tech stack and app. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Matt discusses the challenges of transforming a world-famous brand, including how he chose a free-trial subscription model over going freemium, what it was like to achieve buy-in from investors, and the future of Ecommerce and why he thinks social selling still hasn’t reached its full potential.   3 Takeaways: Even the most well-known brands need to earn their stripes when entering a new space. When a previously offline product starts playing in the digital world, it has to prove to customers that their investment in this new space is worth it AR and VR are tools that Ecommerce platforms will be exploring more in the coming years. If you can provide a more immersive experience, you differentiate yourself from the competition and create more value to your customers Stay true to the brand and don’t try to compete on business models that don’t fit For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next In Commerce, this is Stephanie Postles, co-founder of Mission.org and your host. Today, we're going on a digital transformation journey. Matt, how's it going? Matt: Oh, really good. A little cooped up here like we all are, but I'm hanging in there. How are you doing? Stephanie: I'm doing well. Yeah, same hot, very hot. It's 92 here and the places in Silicon Valley usually don't have air conditioning so just a little sweaty in the studio. Stephanie: So I must admit, I have not checked in on Rosetta Stone in a while and when I started browsing through you guys' website, I was like, "Whoa, you all have come a long way from CD-ROMs and everything that I was used to when I was growing up and thought of Rosetta Stone." So I'd love to hear a little bit about what brought you to Rosetta Stone and your background before you joined. Matt: Yeah. It's interesting, just before I dive in, it's rare to join a company where everyone knows your brand and your product like just about everyone in the United States does Rosetta Stone. Matt: And so actually, it's an interesting story because there's not many ed tech companies that are a public companies, you could count them on your hand and the company has been a public company for over 10 years. Matt: It's been around for 27 years and it's a really interesting backstory on how the company was founded and so some of that came into play with what got me attracted to the business. Matt: So a friend of mine who's a recruiter talked to me about this opportunity and I typically do restarts, pivots as they are [crosstalk] for startups. Matt: And even the startups that I join are typically pivots. So there's kind of this pivot transformation story that typically is a draw for me for whatever weird reason why I attracted to these things and when he said, "Oh, it's Rosetta Stone." Matt: I was like, "Oh, the CD-ROM company, the yellow box." I was like, "Yeah, but they're trying to be digital." I'm like, "They're not digital yet?" Matt: And so the draw for me was typically, I take on jobs and assignments that are very difficult where I have to either completely change the strategy or get new financing on a new idea. Matt: There's generally something really, really wrong and Rosetta Stone was so intriguing to me on the surface for the intellectual reasons why they brand the product, people love it. Matt: It's not one of those iconic brands that people are afraid of. It's not like saying, "Matt, do you want to restart Myspace? I was like, "Oh my God, it's Rosetta Stone, of course." Stephanie: That's your next project. Myspace. Matt: Yeah. Stephanie: Just bring it back. Matt: Making it great again. Too soon. But what personally drew me, that's kind of the intellectual business level, what personally drew me into the company was and is the fact that I'm dyslexic, and a third of the revenue for Rosetta Stone is actually one of the fastest growing. Matt: We sell software into K-12 schools primarily in United States that help kids learn how to read, better learn how to read which is a problem. I've seen my own youngest son struggle with his dyslexia as well. Matt: And so on a personal level, it's very emotional when you can kind of tie that emotional tie to a company to its mission and vision. It's really intriguing. So it's been one of the best career decisions I've ever made. Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. Were there any universal truth that you discovered as you are kind of pivoting from different companies and trying out different roles and turning them around? Was there anything like yeah, universal truths that you saw while doing that? Matt: Well, that's a great question. Yeah, a couple things. One is it's so crazy to me, when I step into a company how basically from week one, maybe day one, no one really understands how the business works, like truly understands it. Matt: The key insight, what makes the business special, what can you do to apply capital or a time or attention to improve your strategy or your outcomes? It's just so, it's so weird when you go to a business that's operating, and maybe these are the only businesses I look at where it's not quite tight inside around the strategy and what makes the kind of the economic engine run. I think that's the biggest one that I see off the top of my head. Stephanie: Yeah, that's interesting. I can definitely see a lot of companies struggling there especially as they grow bigger and they have many business units and everyone's kind of chasing a different path, I can see people losing sight of what's important and what's actually driving this business like you're talking about and making it profitable or maybe it's not, but it's the lost leader, something that we still need. So yeah, that's really interesting. Stephanie: So when you joined Rosetta Stone, it hadn't been digital. I mean, only a few years, right? I think it stopped, maybe it didn't stop doing CDs, but it went online. Wasn't it in 2013? Matt: Yeah, I would say it was like half digital. What that means is we were selling one of the most expensive products in the App Store at the time and we didn't really have the concept of really effective sales funnels, a well thought out pricing and packaging strategy based on the type of customers that we're going after. Matt: We didn't have a lot of mobile native features and capability. So I would say it was kind of a port of the CD product in the mobile environment and that was kind of the approach. Matt: And also the approach was really not to focus on the consumer business. So not only did we make this kind of business model and digital transformation move, but also when I came into the business, the big focus was for the language side of the business was to focus on enterprise customers. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Matt: I thought that was actually the wrong move because enterprise is difficult, it's a smaller market, yet consumers where everyone knows Rosetta Stone, everyone likes the product. They actually remember the CD products in many cases and want to use them again, but they want to use them on your phone. Matt: So I thought, "Well heck, everyone knows who I am from a brand awareness perspective, I'll have an easier time deploying less capital against the consumer space and enterprise space." So there was not only just a business model shift, but also a strategy shift. Stephanie: Did you end up sticking with that business model shift to focus on enterprises or did you kind of make it a mix of 50/50? Matt: Oh, good question. So it is about 50/50 today, although consumers now are growing fast. I mean, we're a public company so I can only speak to our public company numbers, but in Q4 of last year, we grew the consumer business about 20% year over year and this is from a business step was growing at single digit. Matt: And then our last reporting earnings quarter, we grew the consumer business around 40% year to year and the enterprise business has struggled more primarily because of the C-19 impacts this year because obviously, we're in a never before seen macro economic headwind, but generally, it's the right decision to make and I view the enterprise business as more of an extension of what we want to do for all adult learners versus creating as a separate entity. Matt: That's a long answer to say consumer turned out to be the right move. It was not clear when I joined the company that even joining Rosetta Stone was a smart move. Matt: I had a lot of folks that I know, acquaintances more so than friends say, "Good luck. There's a lot of error in this company." And I just think it's just a really exciting problem and it's a ... Sorry to keep going because I've had maybe 80 cups of coffee today and just, I don't know. Stephanie: No, keep it up. Matt: It's like the two big verticals that are the most expensive that increased their prices to consumers over the last 50 years are healthcare and education and they have the lowest penetration of digital, and like, "Well, those are hard problems to solve. Why wouldn't you want to be involved?" So anyways, I think it's really fun. Stephanie: Yeah, that's fascinating. So when you came in, what were expectations for your role? What did people want you to do? Did you have a 90-day plan? How did that look? Matt: Oh yeah, if anyone thinks these are scripted questions, these are not scripted questions. These are very good questions. So during the interview process and I'm sure you've had this experience before, when you meet with somebody in a company, you're like, "I'm going to do whatever it takes to get this job." Stephanie: Yup. Matt: And I had one of those experiences with Rosetta Stone. I knew I wanted this job and so I came into maybe the first or second interview with a 90-day plan before I even started, this is the first or second interview. Matt: And the 90-day plan did change slightly because then I knew a little something, but I've done enough of these transformation projects, these pivots where I knew there's these basic building blocks in a format, I have a toolbox of things that I do that really didn't change. Matt: The inevitable strategy didn't know before I started, I didn't know the team members, were they the right fit or not, I didn't know any of that, but the basic building blocks I definitely put together. Stephanie: Got it. So what was on your roadmap, did you have to think about how to re-platform to support your commerce journey and shifting into enterprise and then consumer? What was on that plan that you laid out? Matt: Yeah, and I kind of learned some of this years ago when I was ... Sometimes I think my best work, I can't speak for you or anybody else, but my best work is when I'm completely ignorant of the challenges in front of me and so when I was younger, I worked for ... Well, actually, we sold our company to Macromedia and they had a division called Shockwave. Matt: And Macromedia at that point was not bought by Adobe, and this is Web 1.0 bubble, so I'm dating myself which is not legal in Washington State and these jokes have all jail time. Stephanie: [crosstalk] get us in trouble. Matt: I know. And so we step back through that experience and I learned a lot from the Macromedia Adobe kind of M&A folks about how to approach a problem. And that plus some other work experience over time really got me to the point of thinking through things from I call it the insight, the math in the heart. Matt: And no one framed it that way to me, but that's kind of how I framed it and so when I think about the insight, I think about the addressable market, the position that we are in the marketplace, so supplier's demand competitors. Matt: Then I think about what value we're driving to consumers, what value are you driving to your suppliers if you have them. And then what are the decisions you're going to make based on the strategy that you're laying out for the best outcome? Matt: So you want to grow market share, you want to grow revenue share. Do you not have enough capital? Do you actually need to raise capital and buy companies in order to get size and scale that's the outcome? Matt: So it's kind of a process that I've done over time and I want you to figure all that out, and it takes a while, maybe 90 days, maybe a little bit more, then it's really like how do you put a process together and dashboard is a little trite, but how do you actually run the business so you understand what things are working, the unit economics, what key layers of the business are you looking at, and then figure out an organization to support that and then you find the right team. Matt: And it sounds kind of exhaustive in terms of an answer, but I think too many people come in situations and they say, "Okay, I started this job, I got to restart it. What's my team look like?" Matt: And it's always I think the tail wagging the proverbial pivot dog and I typically, you can find startup people that are good at startups and sometimes, you find startup people that are good at later stage. Matt: You can find every dynamic possible, but until you do the work on, "I need this type of person for this type of growth stage, it's the right person the right time." Matt: If you don't do the work upfront, then you end up having a team that isn't the right team for the outcome that you want. Stephanie: Yup. Yeah, I've heard ... I forgot who said that startup advice where a lot of startups especially around here, are looking to hire that VIP level person, you have to pay a bunch of money to and someone was making the point of like, "Well, will they help you right now where you're at?" Stephanie: And it's okay to kind of grow out of people, but it's not okay to hire someone who's way above that actually can't get their hands dirty and do the work of what needs to be done right now. Matt: That's right. There's lots of people that have different approaches. I actually like to be pretty data driven in terms of how I think about people so I use like employee satisfaction studies and I use different personality profile tests. Matt: Obviously, you're not trying to like ... Hopefully, no one is like applying an AI filter looking at my reactions on this live video, but you can go overboard with data, but I do feel like you need to get the right alchemy talent for your team. Matt: And I've made mistakes where you have that senior person that doesn't want to get their hands dirty when you're like, "Look, I'm in build mode, I'm painting the fence, and I'm the CEO and I'm painting the fence and then I'm talking to the neighbors and driving Uber ..." Matt: The alchemy of that is hard to do, but that's a long winded answer to say there's there's a process and I think it's figuring out what's special about your company, how do you improve it, how do you run it? How did the inputs become the outputs and then what team is required for that? Stephanie: Yeah, very cool. So with the company having to shift as they did to go online and create mobile experiences, what kind of challenges did you see come up when you guys were going through that shift? Matt: Yeah, so there's multiple. So I always think about kind of the four constituents in most businesses, its investors, its customers, it's your internal employees and society. Matt: Not in that order. The order depends on lots of different things and so when I kind of checked down all those boxes, I think the big one, the first one I pick is investors because you're having to explain a model where the CD is purchased up front, it's very expensive versus you don't get all the revenue upfront, you amateurize that revenue and recognize it over 12, 24 whatever terms of the span of the subscription. Matt: So it's a change in terms of how you're reporting revenue, explain it in a consistent way, explaining the new metrics of subscription is challenged one I think from an investor perspective explaining why we have a language business, the Lexia business that I mentioned that focused on literacy is a 20 to 25% growth business, it's growing pretty nicely and language was declining. Matt: So then explaining to investors why do you still have this business and why are you changing the direction from enterprise to consumer, I think for employees. Matt: I always like to think through the employee piece, get the employee piece right, you can do anything and so getting the employees reason to believe, I was the first president to actually run the language business. Matt: It had multiple owners of the P&L and I was the first person probably since the CEO, we had one CEO that that started Rosetta Stone and took it public 20 plus years ago. Matt: I was the first single leader to ... I also tried creating a reason to believe a compelling vision, mission and culture and then when I think through kind of the customer piece, it wasn't as hard to be honest because there was so much brand equity that was good brand equity that doing little bit of things in a way that was kind of planful and data driven actually generated a lot of great outpouring of support. Matt: So the customer side of what we were doing wasn't as difficult as I would have thought and we also had an enterprise business that had already integrated things like digital tutoring with the software and demanding Fortune 500 companies. Matt: So there was some DNA in the company where we knew, "Boy, you can earn every interaction with every interaction." So that was that piece and then later, I started building more hooks into society as part of that and so I kind of view it as a self-fulfilling positive effect of you take care of your employees, they take care of your customers, the investors get great outcomes, and society benefits and you keep kind of turning this crank and you start getting much more reflective about it. Matt: And it does have, it does pay off. It takes I think, in general, I think people brag about how fast they can turn around companies. I don't know why people brag about that. Matt: I don't know, my experience is two years and taking a business from bad to like growing, at least, believing in itself is very hard and so I look at those four factors and I think the society piece is one that's super important that a lot of companies pay lip service to and there's a lot of discussion especially in Silicon Valley about some large companies that are controversial there. Matt: But I'll give you a for instance why if you can tie together the vision, mission, culture values to society, how that's self-reinforcing, we had a obviously horrible global pandemic that we're still pulling ourselves out of and everyone's kind of living through this experience at the same time. Matt: And we basically took just two days to decide that we're going to give away our software for free for three months for students. And we run a current business and selling software to enterprises and adults and we said, "You know what? We know that parents are actually going through hell because there's kind of a make your own adventure right now and schooling." Matt: [crosstalk] and I can feel it myself and we are like, "Oh my God, this is so stressful and the anxiety I heard from our own employees about it was overwhelming and I'm asking them to work harder." Matt: And so we said, "You know what? We're going to give away three months subscription and we're going to just do it and you just have to ... The parents have to put their email address in the school and that's it." Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's awesome. Matt: And we're not a free ... We're a paid subscription product. We're not, there are other competitors that have a freemium model and as you know, changing models or mixed models generally don't have a long history of working and we said, "You know what? We're just going to do it." Matt: And so the team decided to do it, I just said, "Yeah, let's do something." They said, "Here's exactly what we're going to do." And it was live, and then the amount of positive benefits, we got that from pure impressions. Matt: It actually helped our adult business to ... Adult language learning business. That's just one quick example of when those things all start working together. Matt: It's transparent, it's engaged and it's consistent. It becomes kind of operating leverage as well. So it's fun. It's fun to see how that work. Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. It's definitely a good reminder of do good things and good things will come back to you. Did you have any struggles with maybe like surges and people logging in and trying to get on the platform that maybe you hadn't experienced in the past? Because it was maybe a bit more predictable since it wasn't free? Matt: That's a really good question. Not on the system, the system's basis, but certainly from a support basis because we had a lot of, we outsource most of our customer support, and we debated for a while whether we we're going to continue phone support, we still do and I still debate that one, but a lot of our service providers were in outside United States and they all of a sudden had to work from home and then some facilities shut down and so we are just constantly playing whack-a-mole with our support organizations. Matt: And then also, I would say to our frontline heroes were our tutors and we employ a lot of highly educated tutors that have degrees in language learning and they all work from home primarily, they're part-time employees. Matt: And they turn out to be like our heroes because they took some support calls in addition to one-on-one digital tutoring. And so there was unique ways in which we had to adapt with the demand, but I would say more on the demand side regarding the support elements and we definitely saw a surge do the work from home trend as well, but that didn't impact kind of service levels and general software. Stephanie: Okay, cool. And I could see it being a bit tricky to develop and maintain a platform that has so many different layers to the business. I'm thinking about the enterprises who are going on there and buying seats for employees, and I'm thinking about the school is going on there for students, and then the individual consumer like me who's maybe like, "Hey, I'm going to Italy and I want to learn Italian." Stephanie: I don't know, but like it seems like it would be pretty tricky creating a platform that does all of that. How do you think about creating that so everyone gets a good experience and also being able to monitor and measure it in a successful way? Matt: Yeah, I've never seen the complexity Rosetta Stone before at the smallest scale, but what I mean by that is we have three businesses and we're a small cap public company. So that's unusual and the business was run on the language side ... Well, let me step back. Matt: So the literacy business is a business that was acquired seven, eight years ago and that's a 30-year-old company that was acquired, it's called Lexia and it works as a distinct operating unit from my business and is run by an awesome gentleman. Matt: And I use that word loosely and if he's listening, sorry Nick, he's a great guy and so passionate and his team is so good and it's ... I've never seen before a product that's built with like academic research combined with awesome data product engineering that gets results. Matt: It's just, I've never seen anything like it and they had the time to build this product over these many years, it was always digital first and so they're run separately. Matt: My language business was run on two different tech stacks. Actually, it was like five and when I started, I was like, "Well, wait a minute, why is this product that looks the same running off this underlying architecture? Why don't we move everything to react?" Matt: As I kind of went through this morass of tech stacks, it was a lot of M&A that generate a lot of complexity and a lot of tech debt. And so I would say majority of our innovation was not innovation, it was just keeping these old tech stacks up. Matt: So from an R&D perspective, in addition to all the other complexities we just talked about in this interview, I was trying to grow the consumer business, trying to change the business model, swapping out new team members for more growth orientation and doing a huge tech migration. Matt: And the complexity around that is mind boggling. We finished that late last year like de-flashing like old weird services, moving to a services architecture. All that stuff we end up doing and inevitably, the goal is to have one learner experience, just like you use Google, Google Mail for your enterprise, or personal. Matt: There were some admin privileges and other things that are associated in the back end, but in general, the product kind of looks and feels the same and that's, the inevitable goal which we're very close to execute on. Stephanie: Got it. Were there any pitfalls that you experienced when going through all those different pieces to the business or anything where you're like, "When we implemented this, or we move to this type of tech stack, this is when we saw a lot of improvements with conversions or anything around the consumer or enterprise business." Matt: Yeah, just on conversions, yeah, one thing on that is interesting is the amount of improvement we saw just with like putting different team members with specific goals and this is going to sound kind of crazy because everyone is going to like, "Yeah, he's talking about agile." Matt: Just getting very specific about areas in the funnel to improve and how to adjust the trial experience at certain times, and experiencing and showing customers different things at different times. Matt: That had like a crazy amount of upside for us. And I would say less architecturally that we see an improvement other than we had just less stuff that wasn't moving the innovation forward, but just these small things have big impacts and get and I must say like if any one of my team members is listening to this and say, "You haven't solved all that yet is." Matt: It's very difficult to take a business that is so complex, and then all sudden kind of say, "Look, we're going to reduce all the complexity, networks are innovating again." I think there's still a challenge of like, faster, smaller teams, we use a safe framework which is kind of scrum like. Matt: I don't think we figured all that out yet, but it's way different than when I came in and felt very waterfally to me. We're going to issue a press release, what this release is going to look like in one year and we're going to work back from that, I'm like, "Yeah, that's very Amazon." Stephanie: Yeah, yup. Matt: I'm like, "Well, how do you even know this is the right thing if you don't have any customer?" So there was there's a whole evolution of trying things, validating them, making sure that you're deploying enough capital against that makes sure it gets a fair shake, but not too much where you're, you're in over your head and we've had some public black eyes on some of our tests, and I don't care. Matt: We were trying some things internationally with tutoring, it didn't work out, it didn't have the capital honestly to support some of it and I kind of feel like those are good experiences to understand whether you're going to invest more in something or not. Matt: And so I think the fact that we can start doing those things now because we simplified the platform or if possible. Yeah, I think it's hard to say no to things and yes to things. And some of that discipline is easier when you're a startup because you just don't have people to outsource to. Stephanie: Yup. There's always an excuse. Nope, no one else can help us with that. Can't do it. Matt: Yeah. There's never like I'm a product manager by training and I've used every product manager tool under the sun and now I've kind of just resulted in my using Google Sheets again and what I'm trying to triage like epics and themes and stories, and I still like to play around with those types of planning elements, I just always look at all these people in these points available. I'm like, "You guys have no idea the luxury we have." Stephanie: I'm sure they like hearing that. Matt: Yeah, there's nothing more pure than a startup and it's like five people, five engineers and like a product manager that codes and the seat goes, doing UI, UX and it's ... Stephanie: Yeah, that's really fun. So you mentioned earlier a free trial which I actually went on Rosetta's website and I ended up going through the entire trial of learning Spanish. How did you all think about creating that free trial and actually convincing people to do it? Stephanie: Because a lot of times, I think I would see something like that and I'd be like, "Oh, that's too much time and I don't want to start that process right now." Stephanie: And I eagerly jumped in and started doing the lesson plan because it was engaging and fun, and it kind of felt like the real world with the person walking around and you're stopping and talking to them. How did you think about creating that? So it actually converted users into paying customers? Matt: Oh, thanks for saying that. Yeah, I think we have a long ways to go. I think in terms of what we could be doing is we're just, I just feel like we're sprinting to the start line because of the late start, but I think the core piece is for most companies and they think about like what business do you want to be in a lot of people will default to like whatever their venture capitalists said they should do from their other companies they manage or whether they read on TechCrunch or whatever, or listen to on this program is I think you have to be very specific once you figure it out the approach to the product that you're going after. Matt: Are you going to be freemium? Are you going to be paid trial? Or are you going to be for lack of a better term I call it force-trial or upfront trial and there's elements of this that change, there's kind of nuances. Because that's more of a nuanced discussion is the freemium players in the language space for instance would be Duolingo. Matt: How do you get the most amount of MAUs, Monthly Active Users and get enough of them to convert? Or the Spotify example, and you're using basically cap ex as cap, you're using your R&D to drive user and usage and that's kind of Slack-like. Matt: Slack is slightly different obviously. Then the paid trial is, "Well, I have enough of something that's good that I want a lot of people to use it, but I want the conversion to be pretty good." Matt: And so for the first one with freemium, you have to say, "Okay, it's going to be so fun and compelling and I'm going to actually invest in growth that isn't there yet because I think I have scale effects —I can crowd out everyone else." Matt: The second one is I actually have a pretty good product, I need enough people to use it and then feel like I use it enough to want to use more of it. And that's what I decided to do and I'll explain why. Matt: And then on the upfront paid thing is typical like for low ACV, Annual Contract Value SaaS companies you'd see, please just call my ... Just call us and we'll walk you through it with one of my sales reps. Matt: And we'll do a guided tour through the demo or whatever and the decision why we did the second one was it was a good decision and is people knew enough about what the Rosetta Stone brand was like that we knew people would want to try it and that for people that remember what it was like, they definitely would want to use it again and we felt like the pinch was more compelling if we gave everyone a little taste of that. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Matt: We could have said, "Please pay up front." And we're the gold standard and giddy up, but we felt like we needed to earn our stripes a little bit into proving to people that we weren't just like a port of a CD product. Matt: And so that's why we decided to do that and we've played along different roads before. We've never done full freemium and I would argue at this point in the market, we would not be better served to do that because Duolingo has done a really good job of growing their monthly active users and have built some advantages there and we're not trying to play that game. Matt: I'm trying to play the game of being a really good, effective language learning product and I'm trying to set the tone in the trial experience that when you're using the product, it's not going to be like a game. Matt: It's not going to be like Clash of Clans. I guess Clash of Clans is a bad example, or the jewel or like Candy Crush I guess is what I was thinking of. Matt: Every day, I collect coins and I'm collecting coins to benefit my gameplay. It's kind of how I think about Duolingo a little bit and it's ... I think they're masterful of what they do, but I think they're designed to do something different than what I'm trying to do. Matt: And if you're serious about learning a language, and you stick to what I'm doing and you do a couple tutor sessions that we offer, you're going to get there. Matt: And so the business model and what we're trying to do in terms of posture, not market share, but revenue share really drove kind of the philosophy on the trial experience. Stephanie: Yeah, it definitely, it felt more serious especially where you could speak in the language and it would tell you I guess if the tonality was right, and if you were saying it correctly, and it would keep kind of advising you on it, once I saw it had that feature, that to me was when I was like, "Whoa, this is really serious, and I better be ready to learn this language because it's not like a game, it's not just saying random words." Stephanie: You're actually kind of conversating and having to hear yourself which I think is really important. That seems like a big first step to getting people to try it. Matt: It's an interesting observation because we are very oral first in our pedagogy. We want people to engage with the product and speaking is actually just in general a really good way to learn and then the key outcome of speaking well is not sounding stupid. Matt: And so if you're trying to learn a language, you want to sound somewhat authentic. So for Rosetta Stone, I would say, for anyone that really wants to learn a language, we'll get you there, but if you're just kind of trying to build like, it's like counting your calories kind of. Matt: If you wanted to do something like that, then I would say, pick a freemium product over ours and yeah, it's not like super intense scary, but it's like, "Yeah, you better do your lessons before you do your group tutoring session." Stephanie: Yeah. No, that's, I mean, that's great to incentivize people like you're paying for this, you might as well get the best out of it. Is there, so one thing I was thinking when I was interacting with the free trial was, "Wow, this would be really cool if there was like a virtual world where you could be walking around and talking to other students who are learning." Stephanie: Are you all thinking about any technologies like that to implement or is there anything on your radar where you're like, "We're moving in this direction or planning on trying this tech out or this digital platform out?" Matt: Yeah, we've played with VR in the past. I've been kind of like bearish every time someone says, "Let's go into VR." I'm like, "This is [crosstalk 00:39:27]." Stephanie: It's a hot word for a while. VR everything, it doesn't matter to the problem. Matt: Yeah, I know and I have a lot of friends. One really good friend of ours, she has a pretty successful, his definition of success and I think it is honestly successful VR games company, but like I have a lot of other friends that went into VR that gaming or especially verticals that just had a hell of a time just because there's not enough handsets that are available. Matt: Well, we have dabbled in in terms of immersive experience. I think what you're saying is is there a way to since we're immersive, use technology to make it even more immersive and what I really want to do is enable more AR in our experience. Matt: And we have like a little feature called seek and speak where you can ... It's like an almost a sample app where you can use your phone, we use ARKit to do a treasure hunt for things around your house like fruits, objects around your house and incorporate that in your speech practice. Matt: And I always thought that was like a really cool thing for us to expand into and if we ever get the Apple visor, some AR HoloLens or whatever, it'd be cool to start interacting with your world around you, not just with translation, but also to see if you can actually interact with folks that are kind of ambient around that experience. Matt: I personally and maybe this we're going too deep here, but I always thought it'd be cool if like I can visit another country and just decide how much of the spoken language am I going to generate myself, how much am I going to have my device do it because I'm not going to spend the time. Matt: And then how can I phone a friend? How could I have my tutor or my guide integrated experience where I'm going to sound really authentic if I do this or here's an experience that I could do here. Matt: I think the goal for language learning inevitably is different based on where you are in the world, but if you're from the United States or one of ... Maybe some European countries like the UK, it's kind of like this is a cool way to get engaged with a culture. Matt: If you're not in those countries, learning English primarily is a necessity and so I think some of these AR ideas that you just mentioned would be really good and speaking more frequently to other folks that are even not native speakers, but just trying to generate language is a very good way to teach. Matt: We have a product coming out called Rosetta Stone English this summer, literally like a couple months and it is a version of Rosetta Stone for EL kids or English Learners K through six. Matt: And this product is an oral first product and this blew me away. The stat if you're trying to teach a kid English primarily from lots of different countries is written communication. Matt: It's like 20% spoken and so our product is like 70, 80% spoken because this ... And so it's just really interesting. What could you do that's more immersive using AR or VR? Matt: I think there's, I'm with you. I think there's a lot of cool things you could do and I think you could enhance the travel experience quite a bit. I think you could enhance the young learner experience quite a bit. I think there's so many cool things you could do. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree and there seems like a lot of opportunities there. So what kind of disruptions do you see coming to the world of ecommerce and online learning? Matt: Yeah, it's a weird market and it's weird because like depending on what we're talking about in terms of overall commerce, it's like a $6 trillion education market, 6 trillion. Matt: Consumer is probably the largest out of that and then obviously, there's higher ed, there's middle school, high school, there's elementary, and then there's adult education and then where it's coming from, is the consumer paying, is the government paying. Matt: And so take all this aside, less than 10% is digital right now and I think there's going to be this massive realization and awakening because of the C-19 pandemic of everything that I do has to be digital. Matt: And it's not that we're replacing teachers, it's how do we integrate digital curriculum and conductivity between the teacher and the student, how do I build a data layer that personalized that experience. Matt: I think that can happen between, language learning, it can happen in lots of different curriculum like reading and writing. And not having a digital enabled kind of curriculum I think is going to be like if you don't have a solution for that, if you're an education system, if you're a college, if you're whatever, and if you don't offer these types of products in the future, you're going to go the way the dodo bird. Matt: I think higher education has a wake up call. J.Crew, I like J.Crew, they're in bankruptcy now. Hertz, I used Hertz. They're in bankruptcy now and I think there's this massive pull forward right now that's happening because the product that we've been using in education hasn't changed in like 40, 50 years. Stephanie: Yup. Matt: It's the same problem. If I time warp myself from 50 years ago into most classrooms, it would look the same. Stephanie: Yup. Yeah, I've always kind of thought that a disruption was definitely coming around higher education, but this seems to have moved everything forward by many years and especially around K through 12 where that felt like it would be much harder to change. Stephanie: For colleges, it's like, "Okay, now it's changing pretty quickly with all the boot camps coming out and company's not really always requiring degrees, at least in this area." Stephanie: But K through 12 felt hard to change and it feels like this is going to be an interesting forcing function now that like you said, a lot of kids are home and parents are figuring out how to be a part of their education more in the online learning process. Stephanie: It just seems like there's going to be a lot of opportunities that come up because of this. Matt: Yeah, I agree. And I also think that now I'm sounding like the tech utilitarian, but I would say that ed tech and I'm not from the ed tech space, but I am in it now. Matt: I would say that the ed tech providers that ... We're now entering the third wave I guess is how I think about it. The second wave which is typical of most other businesses that you and I have seen before, like ecommerce or sales ops tools, now you can talk about those and go, "Remember Omniture and it was badass?" Matt: Yes, it's now part of Adobe Cloud Matt is when you talk about these generational shifts in how we think about things, I think a lot of the ed tech players, people who are selling software to schools or directly to the parents or kids or whomever, they've definitely oversold or oversold the efficacy of some of those products. Matt: And when I talk about digital transformation, I'm not talking about the ability to do things self serve, and have the teacher look at some flat experience. Matt: Right now and this is not against teachers. Teachers, they're like little mini MacGyvers to me. I mean, they're like doing amazing things streaming together curriculum on the fly. Stephanie: Yeah, both my sister and my mom are teachers and I do not know how they're doing it and how they had to pivot so quickly to being in the classroom and my sister is actually a ESL, English as a Second Language teacher. Yeah. Matt: Oh my gosh, okay. Stephanie: Yup, because I have a twin sister and she always tells me about the difficulties that she's experiencing right now trying to bring her students online and develop curriculums online and a lot of them don't have internet access and it's just very interesting seeing how they kind of develop workarounds to make it work for their students. Matt: Yeah, my criticism of education isn't the teacher clearly, a lot of it is kind of the cost basis in the bureaucracy and when I talk about ed tech, it's like I think it comes down to and this is not a Matt Hulett Rosetta Stone specific thing is educating a group of young individuals or even old individuals, it doesn't matter the same way at the same time makes zero sense. Matt: And so building in the ability for the student to do some things themselves, having a data layer so that a teacher understands the areas in which that student is struggling, and so that the instruction becomes very personalized. Matt: It is generally what I'm talking about and it's right now, I think we have a billion and a half young kids around the world that don't have access to computers. Matt: And if they do have access to computers, they're scanning in their Math homework and sending it to a teacher. Well, who knows if I struggle for five minutes on this problem versus long division versus multiplication? The teacher doesn't know. Matt: And so I think the ed tech software that I'm more in favor of what I'm speaking about is how do you build curriculum-based, efficacy-based software, not unlike what your mom and your sister think about because they have degrees and know how to actually educate someone, they're not software [inaudible 00:49:10]. Matt: And if they're wanting to provide very explicit instruction, my guess is they're really swamped. They've got other things they need to do, they're probably paying for materials that are [crosstalk 00:49:22]. Stephanie: Yup. Matt: And so I think about all these stresses and we're asking them to provide excellent education, it's just, it's too much. And so I really feel like this third wave of technology, and I think it's going to happen is it's going to integrate this we call AI and HI, how do you integrate the best of what software can do and integrate that into the lesson planning of the teacher versus let's try to create AI for the sake of AI and disintermediate teachers which I think is ridiculous is and that's what I'm talking about. Matt: Because I see a lot of tech companies playing the game of ed tech versus education companies that are actually trying to be technology companies. Matt: I think the latter will be the software and the providers that will end up actually being the most successful and the most adopted, but obviously, I'm passionate about this because I've seen this with our Lexia software. Matt: And we have like 16 plus academic studies that show that the software works and I'm like, "How is this possible that two-thirds of kids still today by the time they're a third grade or reading below their grade level that continues through eighth grade?" Matt: Two-thirds are reading below level. How is this possible? And I'm not here to tell my own software. I'm just like, "Why is this possible?" Well, it turns out we don't train teachers to teach kids how to read. Matt: There's an approach to it, and we don't do real time assessments of kids struggling, the teachers swamped, they don't know what's going on. Matt: Anyways, I could talk about this for hours, but I do think there's this world where at some point, the $6 trillion business of educating all these kids and adults and young adults will be digitized. Matt: And I think that will be an interesting space. Ed tech is that one space where most VCs wouldn't want to touch. Stephanie: Yup. Yeah, I know. It's a hard ... I mean, health care and education. It's a hard space. So yeah, I completely agree. I know we're running into time and I want to make sure we can jump into the lightning round. Matt: Okay. Stephanie: Is there any other high level thoughts that you want to share before we jump into that? Matt: Nope. I think I hit the verbose button when I answered that question, but I didn't realize you have some familiar background on education which got me going so I [crosstalk] Stephanie: Yeah, no, yeah. Matt: I will be [crosstalk] lightning round. Stephanie: Yeah, we need a whole other podcasts where we can just talk education stuff and I can have my family be the call-ins and they can give us a little advice and ideas. Stephanie: All right, so the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud is where I ask a few questions and you have one minute or less Matt to answer. Are you ready? Matt: I'm ready. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your reading list? Matt: Words that matter. I don't know the author. Stephanie: Cool. What's up next on your podcast list? Matt: This podcast of course. Stephanie: Hey, good. That's the right answer. Matt: And then Masters of Scale. There's a new podcast actually with one of my competitors from Duolingo. Stephanie: Oh-oh. Very cool. Yeah, that's a good one. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Matt: God, it is embarrassing. Do I have to say it? Stephanie: Yes you do. Matt: Too Hot to Handle. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. I can't believe you're watching that. I'm judging a little bit, but I've also seen a few episodes. So if you were to choose a company right now to turn around, not Rosetta Stone, some brand new company, not a brand new one, but maybe one that's in the industry right now where you're like, "I could jump in and help." What company would you choose? Matt: That's a great question. WeWork. Stephanie: Woo, that would be an interesting one to try and turn around. Matt: Yeah. Stephanie: All right, next one. What app are you using on your phone right now that's most helpful? Matt: I listen to a lot of podcast, I love Overcast. I don't know if anyone ever mentions that. I just love it because I listen to things 2x. Stephanie: Yup, yeah, I know. I agree. I like that app as well. What language are you or your family working on right now to learn? Matt: Well, it's funny. I'm kind of barely competent in Spanish. My 16-year-old is actually I would say pretty intermediate level Spanish and my 10-year-old is oddly learning Japanese. Stephanie: Oh, go. Go him. A boy, right? Yeah, that's great. All right and our last, a little bit more difficult question. What's up next for ecommerce professionals? Matt: Oh boy, ecommerce professionals. I think to me it's a lot of the same topics in ecommerce have been discussed for so many years and I think that the interesting one is how do we actually make social commerce really good. Matt: And I think I spend a lot of time just, I'm not serious with it, but playing with like, TikTok and Twitch, and I think there's some elements to the social selling piece that I think are super interesting that no one's really figured out and I buy actually a lot of products off Instagram, and it's still too much friction and it's not quite working right for me. Matt: So I think there's some ... How do you integrate ecomm and then TikTok in a way that's native to that audience? I think there's some things there. Stephanie: Oh, that's a good answer. Well, Matt, this has been yeah, such a fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and Rosetta Stone? Matt: Rosettastone.com for the company and I'm matt_hulett on Twitter and it was a pleasure to talk to you today. Stephanie: All right, thanks so much. Matt: Thank you.  

As the name of our podcast suggests, we’re always on the lookout for new smart habits that can be helpful in our work and personal life. We have been long-time admirers of the approach that today's guest takes to create work/life clarity and find freedom in freelancing. Our friend and colleague, Matt Baird, is joining us to share how he transitioned to a four-day work week. A necessary caveat: Like most of us, Matt’s reality is quite different these days (during the COVID-19 pandemic). However, his goal is to return to a four-day work week as soon as possible, as it helps him find some much-needed time for himself and his family. About our guest:Matt Baird is an ATA-certified German-to-English translator, editor, and copywriter specializing in marketing and communications. He is also an active member of the American Translators Association, currently serving as an ATA PR writer and host of the ATA Podcast. Matt has a BA in German and International Affairs from the University of Colorado at Boulder. After studying at Georgetown University and working in Washington, DC, Matt broke out of the Beltway and fled back to Colorado, where he traded his suit for sweatpants and launched a successful freelance translation business. Now based in Germany near the banks of the Rhine River, Matt is at his best crafting copy in his quiet office, but happiest playing with his wife and two kids in the great outdoors.Here is a summary of our conversation with Matt:- How and when he started his freelance translator career- How his typical workday looked before the COVID-19 pandemic, how it looks now, and how his daily routine has changed and evolved over the years- When and why he made the switch to a four-day work week and how he made that transition- What habits and strategies he had to adopt to make it happen- How he set reasonable expectations and boundaries for his work and volunteer commitments- How he typically organizes his work week- What smart habits he recommends to colleagues who would like to have a successful weekFor more details and resources, visit our show notes at https://smarthabitsfortranslators.com/podcast-episodes/18To learn more about Susie Jackson's group mentoring program "Charge with Confidence", visit her website: https://www.susiejackson.co.uk/charge-with-confidence

Mostly Automotive Marketing with Matt Wilson is a podcast MOSTLY about Automotive Marketing. MOSTLY. This episode falls under the mostly category. We take a break from business and Matt shares his story about the time he got a voicemail from Mike Rowe. (and Matt will play the voicemail). Why did Mike Rowe call Matt? How did he get Matt's phone number? What did Mike Rowe have to say? Find out in this episode.

Regular guest Matt Courtois returns to discuss teaching groups of young learners online. We focus on some of the advantages of online teaching – what is it possible to do online, that isn’t possible to do offline? How to get students to genuinely and meaningfully communicate with each other online? And why tech problems and glitches might actually be the best part of online language lessons.Ross Thorburn: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to "TEFL Training Institute Podcast." I'm Ross Thorburn. This week, my guest, returning once again, is Matt Courtois.Matt Courtois: Hey, it's good be back.Ross: It's good to have you back. Matt, you and I used to work together in the same company. A large part of what you were doing was training teachers to teach online lessons of groups of students.Obviously, lots of teachers now all over the world are teaching groups of students online, so pretty cool to get your ideas and experience of doing that.Matt: Also, where I'm working now, we're doing the same thing that I think a lot of people are going through, and then we're transitioning our face‑to‑face classes to online.Ross: In your experience of doing this, both now and in the past, what do you think are some of the biggest challenges for teachers?Matt: One thing that every teacher...Actually, it was my first instinct as well, whenever I move to an online company, was thinking about, what do we do in a "real" classroom? Basically, figure out, right now, let's do that online, which is all good.It limits you because there are things that you can do online that you can't do in your regular classroom. First of all, teaching online is a real classroom. Secondly, there's a lot of advantages that teaching online has that you wouldn't even know how to do in a real classroom.Ross: I'm imagining here like a Venn diagram. It's like, what teachers tend to do online is just the stuff that overlaps often with teaching offline.Matt: One of the challenges that I still struggle with in training teachers online is trying to consider how can you get students to interact more. You've run Skype meetings, I've run Skype meetings, or zoom meetings, or whatever platform you're using.It ends up being a lecture. You don't get the participation you would in a normal training. It's just the nature of the way those platforms work. You can't get 10 people talking at the same time when working on a project.Ross: You can't do that thing of turnaround to speak to your partner now and discuss this if it's 10 people all sharing the same online space. What do you think are some ways that teachers can get students to interact with each other online in those group classes?Matt: I think the nicest way that a lot of platforms use, the most logical way to get all your students interacting at the same time is if you have six students, break them up into three different breakout rooms. They can talk for five minutes. Then you gather back together at the end, and you can debrief what they came up with in those five minutes in their breakout rooms.Ross: I can imagine there being a lot of trepidation from teachers in using them. It really is like a complete blind spot. If you're setting up group work in a class, you can kind of hear what everyone's doing at the same time, but as soon as they're in different, literally different rooms, it's absolutely impossible to hear what's going on.I guess maybe some tips for teachers in setting those up would be to be really clear about what you expect students to be able to come back at the end of the five minutes and be able to do or present and be super specific in the instructions.Matt: That goes with something I recommend telling teachers during class. Tell your students, go and get something from your house. You're talking about food, like tell students go to your refrigerator and find some food that you can present or show off.Again, you do have to consider, if you don't set a time limit, you might have some students that are gone for 15, 20 minutes. Because going on the refrigerator can be a point of distraction with some people.[laughter]Ross: Yeah, that's such a good point. I feel that's the other side of that Venn diagram. It's something that's possible to do online but not offline, is get real stuff from your house and from the students' houses, and bring them together and show them and compare them.Matt: Some obvious sets of stuff that everyone has in their house. You've got your furniture, different rooms. I had a teacher who's doing a demo with me. I was the fake student. She was doing the different rooms in the house. She basically would say, instead of take your computer to the bathroom or the bedroom ‑‑ it's too difficult; it's an invasion, almost.Instead, what she said, "Go to your bathroom and find a toothbrush. Bring your toothbrush back here and then go to your bedroom and find your pillow." It's vocabulary within the room. You can practice some of that.Different rooms, food, family members, presumably you're in your house with your family. For little children, especially, you can say, bring your parents here and introduced them to the class.Ross: You could do some cool translation activities with that as well. Like, get grandma, and you ask the question in English, the other student has to translate it into grandma's first language, then you do that back the way.Matt: Another huge way ‑‑ this is probably the best way you can get all your students talking in the same time with that breakout rooms ‑‑ is have them do the role play with their parents.It's great for parents too, because I think a lot of parents want to see that their children are learning and there's evidence of them being able to produce language in English, and they are interested. They are wanting to participate in their student's learning.Ross: They'll participate regardless. If the teacher just lets them be passive, you're really rolling the dice there in terms of what participation you're going to get. We've seen just about everything, from just shouting out the answers to telling the students that they're stupid for getting it wrong, to giving the wrong answers.If you're able to set roles for what you actually want the parents to do, then you can involve them in a way that you know is going to be productive.Another big difference for teaching kids online compared to offline, I think that's a potential advantage, is the classroom management language is really different for online to offline.If you think about just any decent coursebook, the first chapter is usually going to be things like what's your name, because you need to know your students' names, and things like stand up, sit down, pencil, eraser, pen, boom, blah, blah, blah, because students need to know and need to be able to use that language in order to actually participate in the class.I feel that most coursebooks will not have the language that you need to participate in an online class, which is all these other things. It's [inaudible 7:00] not stand up and sit down. It's like click, circle.Matt: It's an interesting thing, with teaching Lexus. I remember, a few years ago I went to a talk, and somebody was saying what are the first words that you teach to students? You teach the highest frequency words first because those are the ones that students use most.Ross: Again, it's so context specific, isn't it? I guess if you were teaching a group of students from different countries and different backgrounds, you would want your coursebook at the beginning to have things like, where did you come from?If you're teaching a group of students that are all in their home country from the same time, that language is not meaningful at all. It's even not meaningful, like if the students already know each other's names because they're in the same primary school class and have been for three years. That's not useful language.One of the things for teaching online is you really have to start assessing like, why do we teach some of the things that we teach?Matt: Along with that, here's the flip side of it that's positive is that a lot of my teachers, in the beginning of a lot of classes, they want to do something that students notice.They always ask students, "How's the weather today?" Something I point out is you and I sitting here in the same room would never ever ask that question because you're fully aware and I'm fully aware of how the weather is today, and we know that each other knows.It's not a real interaction. There's no exchange of ideas happening. It's purely a fake interaction that we create for the classroom.Whereas, all of a sudden, online, you do have some people being in different places. When I'm on the phone with you, if you're in Shanghai and I'm in Shenzhen, let's say, we would say, "How's the weather today?" I think online, now that becomes a genuine interaction. We can actually do it and have some different language appear as well.Ross: Even very simple things, like very, very low level students, like, "What colors can you see?" It's a sort of thing you'd maybe do in the classroom with real beginners. When everyone's in their own living rooms, all of a sudden, that's a genuine question. What colors can you see? Because I can't see your living room.I can just see wall behind you. You can see all these different things. All this communication that before used to be fake, or these questions, at least, that used to be display questions are now referential questions. Real communication is happening.Matt: I remember a story from our old company where one lesson, the teacher was asking students questions like that. They were looking at this PowerPoint together, and he said, "What's on this page?" The kid would say, "This is on the page, this, this, this." He just named all the items. "All right, next slide, what's on this page?" "This is on it. This is on."It's all this fake interaction because the teacher knows what's on those pages. Then all of a sudden, there was a technical difficulty. They started looking at two different pages.All of a sudden, the teacher said, "Can you tell me which page you're on? What are you seeing?" The student starts describing the page, and he's like, "Oh, so you got three pages ahead of me." You realize, it was by mistake, by a glitch in the system.Finally, we had a real interaction when they were looking at different things and trying to communicate and solve the problem together, so they could end up on the same page together. For the first time in their lesson, they're having a meaningful exchange.Ross: The teacher has a reason to actually listen to the student's answer as well. The communication is happening both ways.Matt: How many times am I going to ask you like, "What do you see?" He'd tell me, and I'd say, "Good job." That's not a real interaction. It's only for the classroom.Ross: That's a fascinating example, doesn't it? It was like, sometimes online, when things go wrong, it can be a positive thing. I've definitely seen this as well in terms of the audio quality, and then the teacher and students are not being able to hear each other.It doesn't mean you get more sort of negotiation and meaning of like, "What was that? What do you mean? Can you explain? Is there another word for that? How do you spell it?"Again, I'm not asking how do you spell it because I'm checking your spelling. It's because I'm genuinely trying to understand.Matt: Trying to understand. I remember something you used to complain about. In another previous, previous job, there's a lot of times to get that gap between students, to get that meaningful exchange in a real classroom.To get one student looking at something the other student doesn't, you end up blindfolding the student. You end up blindfolding student B, so student A can describe what to do. How many times have you been blindfolded in real life? No, don't answer that. I don't want to know.[laughter]Matt: You can understand why teachers are doing that, why they're putting the blindfold on their students ‑‑ so they can create that gap and that need for real communication, but it's just so inauthentic. Whereas online, you do have some people with camera problems and some people that don't. You can really use those to make your lessons better.Ross: Absolutely. I feel so much of this, it's really just taking the same principles as you're teaching off...I think there's so much of what is bad teaching offline. Teachers holding up flashcards and getting students to name them. That's also bad teaching online.Matt: It's a bit more obvious online as bad teaching. A teacher, when they have those flashcard activities, they can have 10 activities where they get the students up and running around.In essence, all they're doing is getting students to memorize these words on the flashcard. It is a very interactive thing where students are moving around. It can feel pretty fun.Online, if you're doing just that list of words or looking at the picture and treating it like that focus on the six vocabulary items again, and again, and again, you can't really fall back on that fun flashcard activity.Ross: Something you hit on there is the importance of doing something to get the students to move.I think half an hour, if you're six years old, to sit in the one place, that's a big ask. Trying to do those activities of whatever it is, like miming something or finding something in the room and bringing it back. Just doing something to get the students to just move away from this sitting, staring at the screen is a bit of a must.Matt: One rule I make for teachers is get your students up and moving in every class.Ross: That's obviously really easy to do offline, but I think that's something that requires a lot more thought online. Or, maybe it's not necessarily easier offline. It's just everyone has been doing it for longer.People have developed all these strategies for getting students to switch seats or look at something outside the class or do a rolling dictation. If it's online, you need to think of a new way, a new reason for the students to stand up and do something.Matt: I said in the beginning that this is something that all teachers around the world are doing, this transition from offline to online. I'm excited about it. In my profession and education, it is a pretty conservative thing.It hasn't evolved that much since I've taught. We're at a time now, right now, that we are doing something very different, and everybody's doing it. I'm excited to see what comes out of this.Ross: Good. I think that's a great place to wrap up. Matt, thanks for joining us.Matt: A pleasure, as always.Ross: All right. We'll see you again next time, everyone. Goodbye.Matt: See you.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Kat: You know I was reading the other day that maybe video games might not be so bad for children. What do you think about that?Matt: I think it depends on what you're talking about is so bad for children, I think if you're talking about supposedly educational video games such as Sesame Street video games, etc, I don't think that those help children in any way whatsoever. Sports games, I don't think that those are going to help kids learn how to play sports either. Violent video games, I think that's kind of a fine line, is it going to make children more violent or less violent?Kat: What the article was actually about was that video games, especially violent video games, actually decrease crime instead of increasing it.Matt: How come? That doesn't seem to make much sense?Kat: At first I thought it didn't make a lot of sense either but it was saying that children that play a lot of video games stay inside and they get some of their aggression out actually playing these games.Matt: Do you think that the reason the crime goes down is because they get their aggression out or do you think it's because they're just staying indoors more often? Or did the article say either way or another?Kat: Actually the actual article was saying that kids stay inside more, so they don't really have time to commit crimes.Matt: In that sense then it doesn't matter if it's educational, it doesn't actually matter if they are playing violent video games or not I would think. It would just be any type of video game keeps them inside.Kat: That's true.Matt: I don't know. I think that I was always growing up playing video games and my mom would always try to kick me out of the house to go outside and play and sure it's good that video games keep kids from doing violent things on the streets but I don't think that video games should be the center of their life and keep them indoors all the time.Kat: What do you think should be the maximum amount of hours that kids should be allowed to play?Matt: More than an hour or two a day, I think the part the study doesn't look at is the long term effects that make kids stay indoors all day and they become less social, so because they're less social they're going to end up having more pent up[被压抑的，被抑制的] frustration in the long term when they become thirty and forty and they are not able to connect with other people.Kat: I think that's a good point. Children should definitely not play more than one or two hours a day and they should not neglect their friends for it.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Kat: You know I was reading the other day that maybe video games might not be so bad for children. What do you think about that?Matt: I think it depends on what you're talking about is so bad for children, I think if you're talking about supposedly educational video games such as Sesame Street video games, etc, I don't think that those help children in any way whatsoever. Sports games, I don't think that those are going to help kids learn how to play sports either. Violent video games, I think that's kind of a fine line, is it going to make children more violent or less violent?Kat: What the article was actually about was that video games, especially violent video games, actually decrease crime instead of increasing it.Matt: How come? That doesn't seem to make much sense?Kat: At first I thought it didn't make a lot of sense either but it was saying that children that play a lot of video games stay inside and they get some of their aggression out actually playing these games.Matt: Do you think that the reason the crime goes down is because they get their aggression out or do you think it's because they're just staying indoors more often? Or did the article say either way or another?Kat: Actually the actual article was saying that kids stay inside more, so they don't really have time to commit crimes.Matt: In that sense then it doesn't matter if it's educational, it doesn't actually matter if they are playing violent video games or not I would think. It would just be any type of video game keeps them inside.Kat: That's true.Matt: I don't know. I think that I was always growing up playing video games and my mom would always try to kick me out of the house to go outside and play and sure it's good that video games keep kids from doing violent things on the streets but I don't think that video games should be the center of their life and keep them indoors all the time.Kat: What do you think should be the maximum amount of hours that kids should be allowed to play?Matt: More than an hour or two a day, I think the part the study doesn't look at is the long term effects that make kids stay indoors all day and they become less social, so because they're less social they're going to end up having more pent up[被压抑的，被抑制的] frustration in the long term when they become thirty and forty and they are not able to connect with other people.Kat: I think that's a good point. Children should definitely not play more than one or two hours a day and they should not neglect their friends for it.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Kat: You know I was reading the other day that maybe video games might not be so bad for children. What do you think about that?Matt: I think it depends on what you're talking about is so bad for children, I think if you're talking about supposedly educational video games such as Sesame Street video games, etc, I don't think that those help children in any way whatsoever. Sports games, I don't think that those are going to help kids learn how to play sports either. Violent video games, I think that's kind of a fine line, is it going to make children more violent or less violent?Kat: What the article was actually about was that video games, especially violent video games, actually decrease crime instead of increasing it.Matt: How come? That doesn't seem to make much sense?Kat: At first I thought it didn't make a lot of sense either but it was saying that children that play a lot of video games stay inside and they get some of their aggression out actually playing these games.Matt: Do you think that the reason the crime goes down is because they get their aggression out or do you think it's because they're just staying indoors more often? Or did the article say either way or another?Kat: Actually the actual article was saying that kids stay inside more, so they don't really have time to commit crimes.Matt: In that sense then it doesn't matter if it's educational, it doesn't actually matter if they are playing violent video games or not I would think. It would just be any type of video game keeps them inside.Kat: That's true.Matt: I don't know. I think that I was always growing up playing video games and my mom would always try to kick me out of the house to go outside and play and sure it's good that video games keep kids from doing violent things on the streets but I don't think that video games should be the center of their life and keep them indoors all the time.Kat: What do you think should be the maximum amount of hours that kids should be allowed to play?Matt: More than an hour or two a day, I think the part the study doesn't look at is the long term effects that make kids stay indoors all day and they become less social, so because they're less social they're going to end up having more pent up[被压抑的，被抑制的] frustration in the long term when they become thirty and forty and they are not able to connect with other people.Kat: I think that's a good point. Children should definitely not play more than one or two hours a day and they should not neglect their friends for it.

In this episode, you will learn from Matt: How to use Conversation Intelligence to up-level a sales team to close more revenue The “aha moment” for Matt while deploying Coaching as a Service The top lessons learned from thousands of hours of sales coaching Bonus: The power of great coaching in the Super Bowl this year! #StickToThePlan

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:　VOA英语每日一听Matt: So, Rachel, where are you from?Rachel: I'm from Scotland.Matt: Okay, Okay. Scotland like, what's the biggest city in Scotland would you say?Rachel: The capitol city is Edinburgh but the biggest city, size-wise and population-wsseis Glasgow.Matt: Okay and you lived in ...? Did you live in one of those two cities?Rachel: My grandparents lived in Edinburgh and I lived in Glasgow for quite awhile at university.Matt: Okay. I'm under the impression that there's a lot of rain in that area. Is that true or?Rachel: Yeah, pretty much.Matt: Yeah, we both come from rainy climates.Rachel: Yeah, the West Coast of Scotland gets more rain that the east coast, so it's Glasgow that gets more rain than Edinburgh but Edinburgh has this very bitter cold wind, and it's really chilly.Matt: All year round or just in the winter?Rachel: No, pretty much all year round. Yeah.Matt: Interesting. Tell me about Glasgow. What kind of city is it?Rachel: Glasgow? When I was a kid was actually sort of very rundown[詳細報告], and it used to be famous for boat building and industry. But yeah, when I was a kid, I mean it was famous for being a very rough town and lots of unemployment. Lots of social problems, and then it just went through a kind of renaissance[復興] and got lots of money from the European Union and then the town just totally transformed. When I go back it's so different.Matt: How is it different? Is it like more of a center for art than it was? Or is it ...? Like what's different?Rachel: It did become a city of culture. And I think that reflects the sort of liveliness of the people of Glasgow. Like they're just, they have such a good sense of humor. They're very friendly. Quite different from Edinburgh where they're much more reserved I think.Matt: People are a little uptight.Rachel: Yes, yes, so .. not uptight but they're not so friendly as Glaswegians.Matt: Glaswegians!Rachel: Yes.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:　VOA英语每日一听Matt: So, Rachel, where are you from?Rachel: I'm from Scotland.Matt: Okay, Okay. Scotland like, what's the biggest city in Scotland would you say?Rachel: The capitol city is Edinburgh but the biggest city, size-wise and population-wsseis Glasgow.Matt: Okay and you lived in ...? Did you live in one of those two cities?Rachel: My grandparents lived in Edinburgh and I lived in Glasgow for quite awhile at university.Matt: Okay. I'm under the impression that there's a lot of rain in that area. Is that true or?Rachel: Yeah, pretty much.Matt: Yeah, we both come from rainy climates.Rachel: Yeah, the West Coast of Scotland gets more rain that the east coast, so it's Glasgow that gets more rain than Edinburgh but Edinburgh has this very bitter cold wind, and it's really chilly.Matt: All year round or just in the winter?Rachel: No, pretty much all year round. Yeah.Matt: Interesting. Tell me about Glasgow. What kind of city is it?Rachel: Glasgow? When I was a kid was actually sort of very rundown[詳細報告], and it used to be famous for boat building and industry. But yeah, when I was a kid, I mean it was famous for being a very rough town and lots of unemployment. Lots of social problems, and then it just went through a kind of renaissance[復興] and got lots of money from the European Union and then the town just totally transformed. When I go back it's so different.Matt: How is it different? Is it like more of a center for art than it was? Or is it ...? Like what's different?Rachel: It did become a city of culture. And I think that reflects the sort of liveliness of the people of Glasgow. Like they're just, they have such a good sense of humor. They're very friendly. Quite different from Edinburgh where they're much more reserved I think.Matt: People are a little uptight.Rachel: Yes, yes, so .. not uptight but they're not so friendly as Glaswegians.Matt: Glaswegians!Rachel: Yes.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:　VOA英语每日一听Matt: So, Rachel, where are you from?Rachel: I'm from Scotland.Matt: Okay, Okay. Scotland like, what's the biggest city in Scotland would you say?Rachel: The capitol city is Edinburgh but the biggest city, size-wise and population-wsseis Glasgow.Matt: Okay and you lived in ...? Did you live in one of those two cities?Rachel: My grandparents lived in Edinburgh and I lived in Glasgow for quite awhile at university.Matt: Okay. I'm under the impression that there's a lot of rain in that area. Is that true or?Rachel: Yeah, pretty much.Matt: Yeah, we both come from rainy climates.Rachel: Yeah, the West Coast of Scotland gets more rain that the east coast, so it's Glasgow that gets more rain than Edinburgh but Edinburgh has this very bitter cold wind, and it's really chilly.Matt: All year round or just in the winter?Rachel: No, pretty much all year round. Yeah.Matt: Interesting. Tell me about Glasgow. What kind of city is it?Rachel: Glasgow? When I was a kid was actually sort of very rundown[詳細報告], and it used to be famous for boat building and industry. But yeah, when I was a kid, I mean it was famous for being a very rough town and lots of unemployment. Lots of social problems, and then it just went through a kind of renaissance[復興] and got lots of money from the European Union and then the town just totally transformed. When I go back it's so different.Matt: How is it different? Is it like more of a center for art than it was? Or is it ...? Like what's different?Rachel: It did become a city of culture. And I think that reflects the sort of liveliness of the people of Glasgow. Like they're just, they have such a good sense of humor. They're very friendly. Quite different from Edinburgh where they're much more reserved I think.Matt: People are a little uptight.Rachel: Yes, yes, so .. not uptight but they're not so friendly as Glaswegians.Matt: Glaswegians!Rachel: Yes.

We talk about why performance reviews get a bad reputation, why they’re not all bad and what teachers and managers can do to get the most out of them.Tracy Yu: Hello, everybody. Welcome to our podcast today. We've got our guest, Matt Courtois. Hey, Matt.Matt Courtois: Hey, guys. How's it going?Tracy: Good. Today what we're going to talk about, Ross?Ross Thorburn: What's one of my pet peeves? I think it's one of the things that's most commonly done badly ‑‑ performance reviews and performance appraisals.Tracy: OK. I think that's maybe two sides, right? One is for the manager who are going to do the performance appraisal with the employee, and they may feel nervous or are probably not doing the right way. Also, the employee feel nervous about how they are going to be told.Ross: Yeah, it's kind of like that thing, isn't it? It's like everyone's dreading it more than everyone else.Matt: I don't know. You gave me performance appraisals. I don't know if you felt this or not, but I was always...I don't want to say nervous, but I am.Ross: You had good reasons to be.[laughter]Matt: I was always close to getting angry, I think, at a performance appraisal. I was in a defensive state of mind when going into the performance appraisal always. It's not just you. It happened before you as well.Ross: Thanks. I was feeling really guilty.[laughter]Tracy: OK. There are three questions and the first one ‑‑ what is performance review and why do we do it? Second?Ross: How can managers make performance reviews worthwhile?Matt: How can employees make performance reviews worthwhile?[music]Tracy: OK. Why do we need to do performance reviews? It seems a rule and yet a lot of companies, especially for the annual performance review. Then the manager and employee sit together and discuss how much salary is going to be increased for next year.Ross: Not necessarily. I think that's one thing that can happen, but I think it is most basic. It's just a thing where you can give someone feedback every year or every six months. Companies have built into their program that everyone's going to get feedback once a year. Even if you've got the worse manager ever that never gives you feedback, that's going to happen at least once a year.Matt: Performance appraisals have always been one of my pet peeves. You mentioned earlier that it's one of your pet peeves, but the way you just described it sounds like a decent thing. What is it that you have against performance appraisals?Ross: I think if you're a good manager, they're completely pointless. You should just be giving people feedback all the time. I think that's one thing. I think the second thing is what Tracy meant is it's like your performance gets tied to your salary.There's a quote, I think it's from this guy called Peter Schultz, and he says that...and I'm paraphrasing here, "We use tools to measure people's performance that are so rough, we wouldn't use them to weigh out vegetables in a supermarket."There's one more thing I wanted to mention why I dislike performance reviews. One common thing that happens is the employee or the teacher in this case. You have to rate yourself. How good do you think you did on these points?The manager also has to rate the same person, and it always results in conflict, because people always think that they are better than they are. Here's a little clip from Sam Harris's podcast. This is him discussing this same cognitive bias.Sam Harris: People assume that they are reliably doing what even the best of the experts are doing.Tristan Harris: This is kind of related to the Dunning Kruger effect, and some variation of that everyone is more. What was it like 90 percent of people think they're better than average drivers?Sam Harris: Yeah. I think the stat that reveals that this moves into a fairly high level of education, at least, is I think it is 95 percent of college professors think that they're above average professors.Tristan Harris: It's just the universal ways that will overestimate something or that we would assume that we have the moral or cognitive moves that everybody else has.Ross: You can hear from that that everyone's sort of like pre‑programmed to think that they're better than they are. Which probably has some advantages day‑to‑day that probably makes people feel more confident, but when you get into this kind of rating thing and performance reviews, then it's going to cause a conflict.Matt: I remember in one of my first performance appraisals in my last company, one of the categories was attendance. It was on a spectrum from terrible to excellent, and I was marked as average. I hadn't missed a single day of work. I've never been late. I've never left early. I was always there for the entire shift, and I was marked as average.I mentioned this to my manager, and she was like, "Yeah, that's what we expect of you. So you're in the middle."[laughter]Ross: You're outstanding.Matt: Yeah. How can you have...? There's this conflict that didn't...If I missed a class, you would think the manager would come to me right then and there and say, "You've got to get to work. Come to class. Don't miss class again."Ross: You don't need to wait six months to tell someone.Matt: Yeah. Even if you did deal with it at that point, what's the value in six months later, revisiting all your tenants, "Remember that one time six months ago?" There's no value in that. It's just beating a dead horse.Tracy: I think that's a very important thing for performance review, remember it's not just happened once a year, and it should be constant. Like you mentioned early on, if you give the feedback in six months' time, and it's not meaningful anymore, random people probably already forgot or changed the behavior during this period of time.Usually, for a middle‑sized company, there should be four times feedback or review with employee ‑‑ at least twice about job planning and then twice about feedback, before the annual performance review.Matt: I have seen value in having a performance appraisal because you set your goals for the next six months. It gives you some longer‑term direction on what you want to do beyond what are you doing this week. I do see some value in that.Ross: Absolutely. I think there are some things that can be good in this. I think you pointed at one, right? That you can clarify the expectations like, "These are the things that we expect you to do." Another useful thing about it is that people expect them to happen. It's almost like a sign of professionalism.If you're in a company that doesn't do performance reviews, most people would interpret that as being, "This is not very professional at fit."Matt: I do think it would be awkward for your manager to come out of the blue and, for no reason, talk about your career aspirations. I do think having some formality, and some process to this conversation is really helpful.Tracy: It's always useful for the managers to find out what kind of support you can give to the employee. Because for different reasons, maybe you are not very clear about what the needs of the employee. During the conversation, you can find out and give specific support to this person.Matt: Every performance review I did within my last round, I had this spiel that I said at the beginning of everyone that is kind of like this where I was saying, "Day to day as a manager, you know what I expect of you." We talked about it every day.If you mess up, or if there's some mistake, we deal with it then, but we don't ever have the conversation about what your expectations are of me and of the company. This is a good opportunity where you're saying what you value here. "Do you feel undervalued? What don't you enjoy?" Stuff like that. I think it's cool to give them that platform to talk about their aspirations and stuff.[music]Ross: Let's talk about what managers can do to give good performances. Maybe I can start with an example of something cool that my ex‑boss did was when I was a manager at the time. He would email all the people that reported to me and ask them about 5 or 10 questions about how easy is it to communicate with Ross. Do you feel you get enough support from him?Then we just got through face to face with the answers. It was really interesting getting that feedback because people don't often tell you that what you're doing that's annoying them. If someone asks, then they maybe will tell you, and then the opposite's also true that you do it's nice to hear, "Oh, this thing that you do for these people, they really, really appreciate that."Matt: I bet the entire time that you're going through that performance review, you were thinking, "Did Matt say this about me? Was that Tracy?" That's how I would be reacting. [laughs]Ross: You just say, "Oh, this person said this about you. This person said this about you." I think what he would do in that situation is he would say, "Let me know if you want any of your comments to be anonymous." In my experience doing this as well, because most people were quite happy.Tracy: I think for that situation, it's just like the people who are asked the questions were pretty honest and transparent. They respect this value of passing on the feedback to that person. I'm sure in a lot of environments, probably people still kind of worry about if they're probably going to be punished or losing their job and everything.Ross: I do know someone that happened to. They gave feedback on their manager, and it was meant to be anonymous. The manager found out, and the person got fired.Matt: No. [laughs] Really? That's awful.Ross: I think you obviously need to tempo what you're saying to a certain extent.Tracy: I think my experience I want to share something that could be improved is during the performance review. There were a lot of things seems very surprising for me. For example, I wasn't very clear about what the company or my manager expect from me, and I was, "Oh, OK. I really didn't know that." Clearly, at the very beginning, the goal or expectations wasn't set very clearly.Maybe what I was doing, I try to spend a lot of time and efforts my manager or company didn't recognize at the end.Ross: I think that comes down to the setting up of the review. That should be the beginning of the process. You talk about here is what we expect from you. This is what you're going to get reviewed on, at the very beginning.I think so often, that doesn't happen. I have even been asked to write what I'm going to get reviewed on the day before the review.[laughter]Matt: That's the goal‑setting we were talking about before, right? That can be useful to have you write your own. What are you going to be reviewed on six months and then for the next six months? You're working on these things, and it comes from you.Tracy: It's like planning of the lesson. Find the learning gap. You know what the students they've already know, and they're good at and then what is the lesson objective. Find out the learning moments, and then these are the achievable goals or target language for the students. I think for employee, probably something similar, right?Ross: I like that analogy, isn't it? It's almost like if you sign up for an English course, and then there's certain things that you probably have to learn or decided on by the coursebook, but there's still kind of room to negotiate, isn't there? To suit the students' individual preferences and I think it's the same with the employees.[music]Ross: We talked a bit about what managers can do there, but not everyone's blessed with having a great manager. If you're a teacher, what can you do to make sure that you get the most out of your annual review with your boss?Tracy: I think the first thing is when you started the job and probably good to talk to your manager. How many times or how frequently you want to get feedback from him or her. At least then they have an idea, "Oh, actually, this person won't want me to give feedback."Ross: I did that the last time I started a new job at the halfway point of my probation. It was at three months, I said, "Hi, can we sit down and talk about how my probation is going? I want just you to go through what you think's going well, what you think is not going well, and any other tips you think that are going to help me meet your expectations."Matt: Like I said before, I'm one of those employees who does get defensive going into a performance review. I try not to react strongly in that meeting room. I just note stuff down and let it sit for a day or two. Then I think, coming at it from a less defensive perspective, I think I can let some of that feedback get a little bit better.A couple of days later, reevaluate again. You can get a lot out of it.Tracy: The reflection ‑‑ it's probably the most important and useful stage after the conversation between the employee and manager. You really need to take some time to sit down and how could you learn from this experience, and what you'd do to make it better.Ross: To play devil's advocate to that, though, it depends on your goal. If your goal is to get some information that's going to help you develop, then great, maybe it is a good idea to sit back and take notes and everything.But if you really want to go in and you want to negotiate, to get a pay rise, then maybe it is best to be defensive and go, "Hey, I can actually show you 10 other situations when that's not the case."Matt: I think also, if you're an employee who is receiving feedback on their performance review and you feel blindsided by it, you clearly don't have good communication with your manager. I think sitting down in that room, that once every six months is in some ways, you can establish that back and forth.I wouldn't get defensive, but I think you can say whenever people are criticizing you. You can say well, like, "What's the way that we can avoid this in the future." I'd appreciate it if when that happens if we can deal with it then and there, rather than six months later. Then maybe you can look at repairing a relationship with your manager.[music]Tracy: OK. Thanks, everybody, and see you next time. Thanks, Matt.Matt: Cheers.

There is no such thing as an overnight success and Nikole is proof of this. From the beginning, she had to get over her nerves of being in front of the camera and build her confidence to become the passionate force behind HealthNut Nutrition. Not only is she a YouTube celebrity but she and her boyfriend “Mr. Matt” have grown a thriving online business with many more exciting projects in the future. In this episode we discuss: How and why Nikole started her youtube channel The equipment you need to get started The importance of passion and enthusiasm when it comes to success How Nikole got over her nervousness and anxiety How she handles negative comments on youtube A mind-blowing story she shared for the first time! How she balances it all Food shaming and veganism The importance of finding your tribe and being authentic Life with Mr. Matt How they make it all happen What's next for HealthNut Nutrition Resources: HealthNut Nutrition Youtube HealthNut Nutrition Instagram HealthNut Nutrition Facebook HealthNut Nutrition Pinterest Visit the HealthNut Shop Visit the HealthNut Nutrition Website Pre-Order The HealthNut Cookbook The Joyous Health Business Program

Heart of Dating is beyond excited to welcome Jordan Lee Dooley BACK on the show, and this time, with her amazing husband Matt Dooley! Jordan just this week released her brand new book Own Your Everyday, and we are so excited about it! Do you feel like you’re stuck with “un figured out dreams?” Do you feel the pressure to prove yourself or worry about what others will think? YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE, and Jordan’s new book will leave you feeling inspired and excited to move forward with clarity and purpose. Go pick up your own copy of OYE right now on amazon, on Target, Barnes & Noble, or your favorite retailer! On top of now being an AUTHOR, Jordan is also a podcaster, content creator, speaker, and entrepreneur whose mission is to equip women with the tools they need to show up for what they’re made to do in their career or business, and in their everyday life. The coolest part is that her husband Matt now works alongside Jordan as a powerhouse DUO!!! On this episode, Matt and Jordan talk to Kait about how they have navigated being opposites in their relationship, particularly on the topic of communication! Jordan is goal setting as a 3 on the enneagram while Matt is much more laid back. However, through healthy and practical steps, both of them have learned how to compliment one another and work together to create a healthy relationship through open communication and practical boundaries. Some theme’s of today’s episode: -How similar visions + common values makes it possible to work through being opposites -How boundaries and accountability are necessary to prevent overworking or stress on the relationship -How to be FULLY present! (and what problems it causes if you are not) -The key to finding your own healthy communication -The secret to having healthy disagreements -How mentorship changed the game for Jordan and Matt -How to manage expectations Also friends! If you want more personalized dating advice, Kait is currently offering 1 on 1 relationship coaching… for both men and women! You can sign up for a FREE 15 minute consultation by going to heartofdating.com/coaching to sign up!

Shower Toga's Kressa and Tony Peterson talk post-race at BoneFrog Talladega. We learn: Were they nervous going on Shark Tank? Why is Kressa so upset with Matt? How much has Tony had to drink today? and so much more. There is also a post-race ride review with Matt, J.D. Clayton, Jaxson and Milo. Todays Podcast is sponsored by: Savage Race 2019 - Tons of 2019 events left. Regular. Pro. Blitz. GORUCK. Choose your style and distance! Show Notes: Shower Toga  Support Us On Patreon  

Brad covers some very thoughtful Q&A, including where weights might fit into the seemingly rigid guidelines and how Primal Endurance differs from Primal Blueprint Fitness guidelines. He looks at the possibility of over-consuming fat and possibly compromising fat loss goals. Brad's super duper awesome cure for plantar fasciitis, how MAF might require you to slow down to a fast walk in the name of rebuilding your broken down body. How to integrate carbs into peak performance efforts and do they cause any trouble? More great stuff along these lines, thanks for the great questions, enjoy the show! Kevin asks about lifting weights. Please explain the Primal Endurance rules on this activity. Why are you so tough on strength training? [00:01:34]  Tori wants to know about what can she do after surgery for ACL regarding recovery.  What can she do about her diet since she won't be able to train as she has the past ten years? [00:06:01]  Olivia has a wonderful testimonial regarding healthy eating. They are eating Keto and paleo and feels great.[00:13:07]  David Porte. a 50-year-old trail runner, is a steady listener of the podcasts. What can be done about his plantar fasciitis? [00:15:27]  Conrad asking about short sprints. What would be advised about altering my weekly schedule regarding sprints? [00:19:44]  Darren has quite a running history. He asks about Maffetone's suggestions of one hour sessions with 15 minute warm up, 30 minutes at maximum aerobic heart rate, and 15 minute cool down. He is training for NYC marathon. What distances should I be training at?  [00:24:35]  Matt: How do mid-race or pre-race carbs affect my ability to burn fat?  [00:29:23] Derek is asking: What do you recommend to someone who loves Keto but expends 3000 to 5000 calories a day during constant activity and two highly intense workouts per day? [00:35:50]    IMPORTANT LINKS: Dr. Mark Cucuzella: He is a professor at West Virginia University School of Medicine. Of his many specialties he has designed programs to promote healthier and better running and has also worked on getting sugar out of the hospital because he knows excessive sugar consumption leads to a host of ailments. Brad’s podcast with Mark Cucuzzella Ketogains.com: This podcast is about how physiology affects food habits (and vice versa), carnivore diets, high vs. low-carb/keto for bodybuilding, exogenous ketones, how insulin sensitivity possibly affects BAT vs WAT fat depots. Ted Mcdonald: Creator of barfoot running.  He has run the Inca Trail in Peru. He teaches yoga. Paleo FX: The world’s premier holistic wellness event, covering healthy nutrition, fitness, sustainability, self-development, spirituality, relationships, entrepreneurship and everything in between. Trail Runner Nation: They provide podcasts and social media connections for trail running, pacing, race nutrition, gear and much more. UCan:  For a steady long-lasting energy without the sugar crash!! Luis Villasenor:  A Podcast on strength training on a Ketogenic diet   QUOTES: You need to tie in what you are doing nutritionally in training and know exactly what is happening on race day. (Brad)

Understanding what people in say from the sounds they make is all but impossible without context, even in our first language. So how can we make more use of this amazing tool which helps prediction, understanding, engagement and application? We discuss what context is, why it’s important and how to incorporate it when teaching adults, teaching kids and in teacher training.Tracy Yu: Hello, everyone. Welcome to our podcast. We've got our regular guest, Matt Courtois!Matt Courtois: Hey!Tracy: Hey, Matt.Matt: How's it going?Ross Thorburn: As our starting point, I wanted to play you guys a quote from Jordan Peterson's podcast. He's a psychologist. This is from a lecture actually about music, but it's him talking about how human beings can understand the sounds that come out of other human beings' mouths.Jordan Peterson: ...It turns out that it's very difficult to listen to what someone's saying, and that's partly because all of the information is not encoded in the sounds that they're making.For example, part of the reason you can understand what I'm saying is that you know, more or less, that this is a lecture about psychology. You know it has a scientific basis. You know that there are certain things I'm not going to talk about.The entire context within which you sit, informs your understanding of my speech. Every word I say helps build a framework for you that informs your ability to understand each word.Ross: Basically, just what we say to each other isn't enough, by itself, to be able to understand what's going on. We all have to understand what context we're in to be able to pick up all those clues and decode meaning from sound.Matt: I had a student years ago, a really high‑level student, and I asked her to quantify how much English she could understand whenever I was speaking. She said it was about 30 to 40 percent.The rest of it was knowing me and knowing this context and understanding things I probably would be saying, and she's able to fill in all that stuff. In this student's case, the other 60, 70 percent of her language is guesswork.We're actually talking about how you can do that within a real conversation.Ross: That's definitely a skill, isn't it?I had a really interesting example of this a few years ago. I went for a run. It was in Beijing, actually, in the winter. It was really, really cold, but I was still wearing shorts and tee shirt. Afterwards, I went into a 7‑Eleven and bought a bottle of water. The person on the other side of the counter, said, "Are you cold?" and leaned across and touched my arm.I remember thinking, "If I couldn't understand Chinese, I would be so freaked out."[laughter]Ross: I wanted to pay for the bottle of water, and then the person started massaging my arm. I think that's because context causes you to predict what is going to be said, and what's going to happen.When you go in to a shop and you put something down on the counter, you can say with 99 percent certainty that the thing that the person behind the counter is going to say next is the price.All these great examples of how we use context in our day to day lives to predict what's going on, but we also need to bring those ideas into our teaching and probably our training, as well.Tracy: I think what I encountered when I'm training teachers...Usually, teachers, they feel quite difficult to understand the concept of context, because it's basically about where you're going to use a language in real life.I usually tell them, "In real life, think about, if you're talking to somebody, who the person is. Is it a friend? It's a family member? It's a colleague? Is it a doctor or is it some stranger on the street?"Why did you need to talk to them? Ask for advice? Ask for directions? Maybe you are paying for something at the cashier? What kind of situation you are, or where you are," and then try to help them understand what context is.Ross: I would almost say it's like language learning physically happens within a classroom, but you want, mentally, for it to happen in another place.For example, we'll talk about examples later with kids, but if you're teaching kids the names of some wild animals, don't make it take place in a classroom with some flashcards. Make it take place on a safari, or make it take place in a zoo.I think people make the mistake of thinking you need context when you practice language ‑‑ you do ‑‑ but you need context everywhere. From the moment the students walk in to the class, there should be context. For when they first encounter a new language, there should be a context. When they're practicing a language, there should be a context.Matt: You reminded me of a podcast I was listening to recently.This person went and saw "Sweeney Todd." Before the show, they walked in, and people were serving meat pies ‑‑ which is part of the plot ‑‑ and everyone was speaking with a London accent, and it was in the US. Everyone who went to this just said it was such a richer experience for the actual play, that they...One thing, we're teachers...When they struggle with context, it's like they choose a grammar point, and they decide, "This is what my class is going to be about. I'm going to have a class about the second conditional."They start off with a bunch of advice like, "If I were you, blah, blah, blah." Then they ask a question, "If you won a million dollars, what would you do?" then everybody answers it. Then it's like, "If you were an animal, what would you be?"The only thing stitching the whole thing together is the actual grammar that's being covered, and it's a really boring class to watch.[laughter]Ross: Or to be in.Matt: My advice is always to think about...Don't stitch your lesson together with the grammar points. Stitch your lesson together with that context that you were talking about.Tracy: It's so difficult to cover the different language points. If they really want to teach some certain language points, they feel difficult to find the context.Ross: Maybe over the next few minutes, we can help people by giving them some examples of how to include richer context in their lessons.Let's go through our three questions. First of all, we can talk about how to use context with adults. Second, we can talk about...Tracy: How to use context with young learners.Ross: Finally, we can briefly talk about...Matt: How you can use context in training.How can we use context with adult students?Ross: One of my favorite things to do with adults to set a context, is to go in and to take something that the students actually think is real and use that as the thing for the lesson. Something I've done before, for example, is gone into the class, and I've pretended to take a phone call.I start talking to the students, and I get someone to call me. I pretend to answer and I pretend, "Oh, it's my girlfriend's called me. She's really, really angry at me. It's her birthday, I forgot to send her flowers."I say, "I don't know what to do," and then the students say something like, "You can take her to dinner tonight.""OK," and I'll write that on the board. "Do you have any other ideas?""You can say sorry.""Anything else?" and you get all these examples. "Thanks very much, that's really useful. Actually, before I came in here, I was speaking to my friend, and I asked him the same thing about what I should do with this situation. Do you want to hear?"They're like, "Yeah, we want to hear." Then you play the conversation. All of a sudden, there's this rich context for the lesson where the students believe that some of this is actually going on, that it's real.It's almost like a comedy show, when comedians talk about, "You know yesterday I was doing this and this thing happened."I'm like, "I'm not sure. Did this actually happen to this person, or are they just making it up?"Or avant‑garde theatre, where you're not sure what's really part of the act?I went to a pantomime when I was back home for Christmas. People walk in late, and the person on stage accosts them and starts asking them questions, and you thought it was real, but actually, my sister had been to see the thing before. She told me that that happens every time. When you're watching it, you're not sure. They're blending the lines between the act and the reality.Matt: Not only is it more interesting, but also, the fact that, if you can relate it to real life, you're showing them that this is a real interaction between us and the classroom. They're actually giving you advice, about what to buy for your girlfriend. It's not just context, it's a realistic context.I don't know if you've ever seen a class where somebody is like, "We're going to be the first group of people to go to Mars. We're going to set up the government, and we have to create a constitution and everything."[laughter]Matt: That might be somewhat interesting for that person who wrote the class, but the odds are that none of the people in that class are going to be in that SpaceX mission to Mars, you know?[laughter]Tracy: Well, you don't know.Matt: Yeah, maybe...[laughter]How can we use context with young learners?Ross: I think for kids, sometimes, people find it even more difficult to think of a realistic context, because kids' lives are often limited to school [laughs] and home.Tracy: I think that we should allow a little bit imagination or creativity your lesson, because kids, they do do that.They think about, "Oh, what I want to do in the future," when they play with each other. They have teddy bears or toys, and they try to give them names, give them different characteristics.I think we should take this kind of stuff into consideration. Allow the kids to use their imagination, not just, "Pretend that you are in a restaurant, and you're ordering food."Matt: Is that really a skill they need? To be ordering food? Because their parents are going to be ordering them food.Ross: Presumably, yeah. I think for them, like you say, a lot of things involve imagination.For example, your thing of going on a space exploration and starting a new colony somewhere, that actually might be more realistic for kids, because that's the sort of thing that kids might think about or talk about or watch shows about. I think those imagination things can work perfectly for kids.Tracy: We talk about games in the class, right?Kids like playing games, but you have to also make your games meaningful. Ross, you wrote a blog about how to use games in your classrooms, and I think one of the key point is to have the aim in it.You have to make sure why you need this game. Is it really help them to practice the language, or make them realize, actually in this situation, they can use this language.Ross: One of the best classes I think I ever taught, we got some bits of paper, scissors, and tape, and we tried to make a really tall tower ‑‑ me and these 10 students ‑‑ out of bits of paper and tape. All the students had to do, was say to me, "Can I have some paper, please? Can I have tape, please?"Tracy: That's something also reminds me...Now it's quite popular, teaching online, but the field is so difficult because everything just depends on the Internet. They cannot use real flash cards and let students to touch it, to feel it. All the kids can't see each other face to face. It's quite difficult to manage.I think don't just have a big lesson topic. Make sure the first second the kids see the screen, they understand where they are, and they are already in that setting.Ross: Right. Is that a zoo, a pirate ship, a pet store, or any of these things?Tracy: In Chinese we say, "Lead you into that setting or scenario." I think that's context, right?How can we use context in teacher training?Matt: I know all three of us have done teacher training at some point. One of the biggest frustrations I always had was, when you cover any point in the training room, that teachers won't necessarily transfer those skills into the classroom when they're teaching.I always thought it was my fault by not...by making that separation. "This is the training room, and that's your classroom, it's another place." I think it's really important in the actual training sessions to create the context of the classroom where teachers will be applying these skills.Tracy: Of course, if the time is really limited, but I try to maximize the practice time, because a lot of teachers, when you tell them, "I want you to teach..."Ross: To practice your skills.Tracy: "...To practice your skills, and not talk about how to use it." For example, you practice giving instructions, not talk about, "First, I would like to get the students' attention, and then, I'm going to do this and that." No, not talking through the steps...Do it! [laughs]Matt: Just do it.Ross: Even with doing it, you can then make it more specific. For example, I'm doing a training next week.As part of the training activities ‑‑ so there's a bit more context ‑‑ it's not just, "Teach this lesson to your partner." They have a lucky draw type thing.Someone has to draw out the age of the student, and then they have to draw out the student's personality. Are they shy? Are they outgoing? Then the teacher has to draw out a scenario like they're running out of time or they have to make up too much time.All of this goes in, there's all these extra constraints, and it makes it a lot more realistic. There's a lot more context then going into that practice, rather than just saying, "Now, practice."Tracy: Thanks everyone. Hope this episode help you understand and use context in your class and training. Bye!Ross: Bye, everyone!Tracy: For more podcasts, videos, and blogs, visit our website at...Ross: ...www.tefltraininginstitute.com.Ross: If you've got a question or a topic you'd like us to discuss, leave us a comment.Tracy: If you want to keep up‑to‑date with our latest content, add us on WeChat at @TEFLtraininginstitute.Ross: If you enjoy our podcast, please rate us on iTunes.

Katrina Ruth: Well, we're going to have to celebrate my hair 'cause now everybody's seen my hair for the first time as well. Ooh, it says I missed a call from Billy Jean. Okay. Hang on. Is anyone jumping on? The cape definitely looks better with the purple outward not the gold, right? 'Cause if I have the gold out, it looks kinda like a weird fish skin. Don't you think? Matt: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. It's been decided. Matt: You do the best, I think. Katrina Ruth: All right, everybody can take screenshots of me now. Ready? Screenshot. So that I can use it later for a blog post. Hello, people. Actually, I was ... Oh, Alicia has a cape just like that. Of course, why would you not? Katrina Ruth: Well, I was having an important dilemma, it was a serious dilemma. I'm here to film very professional and important sales videos. We're here to film a sales video for Empress and so I'm supposed to be in proper filming mode, not livestreaming, and then I just thought, "Well, I gotta livestream it as well, 'cause it would be inappropriate not to." Katrina Ruth: But then the problem was ... here's the problem, you understand my dilemma. I wanted to put my cape on because I'm doing a sales video for Empress. Okay? So, if you're going to do a sales video for Empress, you're gonna wear a cape. But then, then, here's the big problem, I just had my hair done. Katrina Ruth: Ah, celebrate. Actually, it doesn't even look as pink as it is on this livestream, the whole thing is pink, only the top looks pink, but the top is extra pink and the lower bit is somewhat pink. Katrina Ruth: Billy Jean! We're gonna be partying it up next week at your house. There he is. Or wherever it is. Okay, so that's the problem. The problem is: how do I solve this problem? I wanna show my pink hair off and I wanna wear my cape as well because I'm filming a serious video for my programme, for Empress. So I don't know what to do about that. I can try leave it like that but then I have to not breathe and not move. How do I look over on this camera? Good? Matt: Good. Katrina Ruth: Where am I showing from? From here? Matt: There. Katrina Ruth: Yeah, that's fine then. Matt: A little bit higher up. Katrina Ruth: Okay, well, that's under control. It's all under control. And then the other problem is, I don't know what's up with these curly curls. Matt: I'm gonna try fix that mic as well, just the cord. Katrina Ruth: Fix it. Fix it all. Hello. It's gonna be happening in San Diego town next week. Matt: Coming through there. Katrina Ruth: What's going on? You know you have to say hello to the camera if you're just gonna appear with your arm in there. Of course the chair is pink, it's a throne. Actually, that's a good system, isn't it? With one arm out. Katrina Ruth: Curls look great. I didn't want curls, I wanted messy-messy. Then I said to my ... well, it's going messy it's 'cause I only just had it done, we'll let it go, we'll let it do its thing, we'll let it get messy. We got plenty of filming to get to. We're creating much content. It's 1:11 pm, everyone have a moment of silence, it's currently 1:11. Katrina Ruth: Have you seen Empress? Can someone on my team drop a comment about Empress? Drop me the Empress [inaudible 00:03:06]. I didn't tell them I'm going live. Empress C-T-A-A-S-A-P on live. Oh my God, I just wrote Empess C-T-S-A-S-A-P on live. Empress. So, I said to my ... and I was being serious though, I'd already titled this livestream and I titled it ... See, do you know why I did that? Why I said to you you had to say hello to the camera? I was like, "Let me see how many seconds it takes before somebody says 'Matt's cute.'" That's already come up. Sorry Meagan, I was just using you as a guinea pig. It's fun for me. Matt: How old is Meagan? Katrina Ruth: How old are you? He wants to know. Where are you? Are you on the Gold Coast? Can you come over today? That's basically what he was asking. So, anyway, where did I get the cape? I don't know. The ninjas got it for me. I could ask my sister, ask Jessa. Katrina Ruth: So, I had titled this livestream about Empress, 'cause it's supposed to be a sales video, and then I had actually said to Matt, "You know, at a certain point in business, your primary problem is ..." She's in Perth, she can get here in six hours, she says. How old are you? You didn't answer the question. Katrina Ruth: For real though. Okay, enough about that, enough about that. At a certain point in business, your primary problem really is which way should I wear my cape? Should I wear it down, off my shoulders? But then I look just like ... I don't know, what do I look like? Snow White? Snow White. Or should I wear it gold or purple or this way, half of it?. I think it's this way. Katrina Ruth: And then I thought, "What a great title for a livestream: How do you get to a place in your business where your number one dilemma is: which way do I wear my cape?" Well, how you get there is you step into your Empress energy and power. Hi [Mim 00:04:52], sorry, I forgot to tell you I was going live. It was spontaneous. It was an impulse buy, just like the Mercedes convertible. Impulse movements. Katrina Ruth: We're gonna talk about Empress. We're now gonna do an important sales video. Mim has conveniently just dropped the comment in there. I want to let you know something that I ... why does somebody send me an angry face? Who is that? I'm going to track them down. I can sing. I can sing. What do you want me to sing? Cliff wants me to sing. I don't know if I wanna sing on the sales video. I'm gonna go block this dude. I'll do that later. Katrina Ruth: I was saying to the camera before I got onto this camera, I was saying to the other camera, when you're gonna do a sales video ... 'Cause in theory I was just gonna do like a three to five minute little thing for Matt to make into a pop up real video as opposed to this live video that's happening here. That's not a filter, that's me. Look at me. Thanks, Karen. Katrina Ruth: And I said to him, "We wanna make sure that we don't just cut out the serious professional bit from this livestream, assuming that there is one that happens at some point. We wanna include the rambles and the silliness and the shenanigans." Why? Why? Say it with me. Cause people don't buy your products, they buy you. No way. People don't buy you, they buy your energy. That is a real thing. Give me a love heart shower if you know that's a real thing. People do not buy your products, they buy you. Nope, they don't even buy you. That's not true. Because which you are you being? Maybe. Maybe they'll want to buy the sad sack who only shows like your surface based version of yourself to the internet. Who's like, "Well, I hope that people like me and I hope that I'm gonna be interesting, and I hope that my content is unique and powerful and glamorous." Katrina Ruth: Oh no, that is not a pink hair filter. That's actual pink hair. Pink hair filter? That'd be the lazy version, wouldn't it? Katrina Ruth: People don't want that surface version of you. Maybe your loved ones do but honestly, I think if you go around delivering your careful safe version of yourself, even your loved ones, after a little bit of time are gonna be like, "This bitch is getting boring." Right? So, it's not technically true that people buy you, even though, yeah, we're all lovable and worthy in all our different energy states, but people buy your energy. They do. They wanna be around those who are magnetic, lit up, I'm gonna say, alive. I'm deliberately looking at this camera over here so if you see me ignoring you, that's what's happening. Katrina Ruth: They wanna tap into the energy of somebody who feels alive. Am I right? Am I right? I'm right. So, for example, for example, if you go to a party or you go to the gym or you go to any place, I was going to say the airport but you don't tend to see that many charismatic people there, they're probably hiding in the lounge. No, they're not even in the lounge. Somewhere where you go. And there's that one person who's just magnetic in their energy. And maybe they have amazing posture as well because I feel like that's definitely a thing with charismatic people. They just compel you to them. You're drawn into their space. You might be a little bit intimidated, you might feel like, "Who is that person? Can I get close enough?" It's kind of like how close can I go to the sun? I probably shouldn't go too close, it might be scary or it might burn me but at the same time I just can't look away. It's fucking amazing and I'm compelled and I'm drawn in. Yes? Yes. Katrina Ruth: Okay, we're back over here again. All right, so the point of that is: if you're on the internet, it's a place where you can sell things if you've not heard of it. If you're on the internet and you're like, "Here's my thing, buy my thing. Let me tell you the fabulous [dot 00:08:27] points of my thing and why you should buy my thing." And then maybe you're following the rules as well. You've definitely read the rules, right? You've read the rules? Cool. Katrina Ruth: So the rules are ... actually, I don't know 'cause I never paid attention. But the rules are something like: follow some dots and join some dots and dots some I's and cross some t's and do it like the other people and be a good little zombiepreneur. Those are the rules and then you think to yourself, "I gotta make sure it looks right, it's gotta be polished, it's gotta be presented, it's gotta be exactly just so." Katrina Ruth: And if I manage to master this fabulous strategy, people are gonna buy my shit because everybody knows that the way to make millions of dollars is to follow the rules properly and do it right and essentially guide people like they're horses on a equestrian adventure, race track, that's definitely a thing ... a pony club, right? It is a thing. So they're going through the hurdles, like kids at school or horses at pony club. And if you get them to jump over the right hurdles and then go through a hoop and then do a little backward roll and a forward roll and a spin, then they're gonna pay you money and you're gonna make millions of dollars. Katrina Ruth: That's roughly what people seem to think its about on the internet. Its quite hilarious, actually, when you think about it that people actually believe that that's how you're gonna make money if you do it correctly. No. They're going to buy from you for the same reason that when we go to an event and there's a charismatic, amazing, magnetic as fuck interesting person there, we can't look away and we're drawn in and we're curious and we wanna know about that person, who is that person, how can I get closer to that person or that person's attractive in their energy which makes them obviously attractive in all other ways as well. Katrina Ruth: My point being, isn't it time to claim your rightful place? Isn't it time to step up and be the version of you who you know you are meant to be being? Isn't it time to drop the Coach cloak? This is not a Coach cloak, this is an Empress cloak. Isn't it time to drop the Coach cloak? The "Let me do it right doing dots and make money on the internet" approach to marketing is not working for you, it's never gonna work for you, it never does work for anyone is the truth of the matter. But somebody's fucking good at selling that dream because everybody's keeps jumping into it or it's clearly just a shit pool situation. Katrina Ruth: It's a lemming situation. Everyone's like, "Oh, I can see that everybody's on the internet like that. I'm gonna go do it like that." Even though they're all fucking falling off the cliff and dying. So, all of which is to say, Empress is open for registration. We begin very soon. Very, very soon. Places are already selling. I'm about to start bringing my Empress energy to compel and call in your Empress energy. Katrina Ruth: At the end of the day, the details of this don't matter. You don't need to read the details. You could read the details. I'll give you the details through and I'll attach it to this video or if you're listening to this live, it's in the pinned comment over here. Obviously the details don't matter. You know if my soul is speaking to yours. You know if the thing that is missing as to why you've not been making money online yet is that you haven't been in the energy state. You're trying to sell a product or a fucking opt-in or a landing page or a sales page or some bullshit dream based on nothing and you're not fully giving people your soul. Katrina Ruth: People will buy from you when they connect with what's going on in here. And when that happens, they won't even care what the details are. They are literally going to pay to be in your presence and that statement, as ridiculous or diva-esque as what it sounds, is the reality of how I make my money, how my clients make their money and how you know you were born to make money. Now, that doesn't mean you're not doing anything. Actually, what you're doing, though, is being you. Why would it be of value for somebody to pay to be in your presence? Because it actually automatically elevates somebody from being in your presence. Katrina Ruth: And because of the way that you've lived your life to the point where when you open your mouth, that shit impacts people. You can be at the hairdresser, you can be leaving somebody an audio in the car, you can be in the grocery store, you can be coaching a client, whatever's coming out of you is gold. And you're either willing and audacious enough to claim that about who you are as a person or maybe you do gotta go and do the [inaudible 00:12:34] preneur, zombiepreneur, join the dot, internet marketing thing. But you can't have it both ways. Katrina Ruth: You're either, "This is who I am. I'm a fucking Emperess, I'm a queen." Whatever you wanna say, wear a cape, don't wear a cape, it doesn't matter. But you're either claiming that this is who I am and people wanna be around me for my energy or you should go all in on that plan over there. All in. All in on, "I'll do landing pages and I'll do sales pages and I'll join dots and I'll make a perfect little step-by-step system like a pony club racecourse or hoop course or whatever it is where when people go through it probably they're gonna magically buy my shit because I took them through a process and everyone knows that if you take people through a process that's why they give you money." Good luck with that. Katrina Ruth: How's it working for you so far? So my point is, Empress is open. As I already said, I could have told you a whole bunch of things about what we cover, about the energy that we create and step into and activate from inside of you. About creating the Empress environment right through every aspect of your business life. About stepping into the next, next, next level version of you, who you know you're meant to be. Where it's already done, that have caused people to frickin' be around you in any way or space or place that they can be just because of who you are, could have given you all those details, I'll give them to you in written format. Katrina Ruth: But what you really need to do is ask yourself a simple question: Am I here to build a business on the internet by putting one block on top of the other and hoping that it doesn't fucking come crashing down and praying on the fact that even if it doesn't come crashing down that just 'cause I built something, people are gonna pay me? Or am I ready to step into being who I was born to be and to unleash the full magnetic power of that in all its messy, random, chaotic, crazy, hilarious glory. Katrina Ruth: And if it's the latter and if you're ready to throw off all of the chains that have bound you and kept you distracted by the idea that your success is based on doing shit right on Facebook, message me at my Katrina Ruth business or personal inbox here on Facebook or wherever you find it, and I'll get you all the details. We're beginning in just over a week, your soul already knows if this is for you. Four weeks, one on one with me, unlimited access, over $6,000 worth of bonuses, whole bunch of other shit, I'll give you the details, message me now. Have an amazing rest of the day and do not forget life is now, press play. Katrina Ruth: All right, alter ego Boss Bitch. She still didn't tell us her age though but she said her alter ego is Boss Bitch. Okay, that was a sales video being made. Mixing it up. Mixing it up. Do I have anything else to say? I never said that last night, Jacqueline, that was totally Philippa who was making those rude comments yesterday. Now, I've just made a sales video, obviously as you can see, so you just watched it, though, so you don't hae to wait for the sales video to come out. Katrina Ruth: But the main thing is, isn't my hair amazing? I mean that's really the main issue at hand here. New boobs, new hair, new Mercedes convertible, new house as well. It's all happening. But meanwhile, I'm gonna wait for the current house 'cause I'm gonna go to America on Tuesday. 25 but taken. Well, then, that was a fun conversation. We're gonna go. We have many things to film and to do. Do message me about Empress if it's speaking to you. I'm starting to really ramp it up because I deliberately didn't say the date there on that video because maybe I would reuse that video next time if I run it again. Katrina Ruth: However, somebody asked me this morning, am I running Empress again and that they're thinking about for the next round or something. I'm gonna tell you straight up, please don't message me that shit because I live in the now. Right? I might be conscious of stuff like that from time to time if I'm making a video mainly 'cause I'm too fucking lazy to create content again if I already did it once. And it's a nice habit there but I don't make plans to run shit again. I don't have any fucking clue what I'm gonna be doing tomorrow, let alone in summer or whenever the next season is. Katrina Ruth: I don't believe that business should be built on a marketing calendar or an editing calendar or rolling things out or knowing things in advance. And I also think that, for you, if something is speaking to you in your life, whether it's Empress, working with me one on one, and the details are here in the pinned comment on this livestream or whether its anything. Right? Like anything that's going on in your life. Maybe you wanna ask that person out or maybe you wanna go and try a different style of workout or maybe you wanna move to a different place or maybe you can't fucking decide whether you wanna go to the movies tonight or not. Whatever it is, why not get into the habit of saying yes to your soul right away? Huh? Katrina Ruth: Are you feeling this? I feel like I'm gonna get my preacher mode on. Let's film this and we can incorporate it into that beach video that we're gonna do down there. You gotta leverage your content all the time. Ideally, you want somebody that follows you with a camera all the time, except when I experimented with that idea I just got really shitty about the idea of having somebody with me all the time so it didn't really work but once a week, it's good. Katrina Ruth: So whatever it is that your soul is desiring, whatever it is that you're thinking about or you're like, "Maybe I'm gonna do this one day, maybe I'm gonna work with that amazing mentor one day or maybe I'm gonna get that dream car or that dream house or ask that person on a date or fucking go and learn how to dance or," I'm gonna do gymnastics, whatever it is. Why not get into the habit of saying yes to your soul right away? When you say yes to your soul, life says yes to you. That is the reality, right? Katrina Ruth: And every time you hesitate, every time something comes through you and then you think to yourself, "This is for me, I know that I'm meant to have this or I know that this is part of what I'm meant to do, I know I'm meant to do this [card 00:18:03], I know I'm meant to step into that or claim it, it's mine, it's done, I'm manifesting it," and then you don't take action, you have seriously misunderstood the game of manifestation and probably of life. Katrina Ruth: How it works is you say yes to your soul and you take immediate action. Or just fucking don't talk about it and find the shit that you wanna take action on right now. All right. [inaudible 00:18:28], we'll do something on the beach and incorporate it into it. I'm gonna get off this livestream. I can feel that the power is coming through me and I could totally livestream for another hour right now. But I won't 'cause we're gonna go film some stuff like I said. But my point is, don't message me about Empress and be like, "I'm waiting to see, I wanna know how much it is so that I can prepare for the next round," or some shit like that. Just say yes to what you wanna say yes to right now. Katrina Ruth: How do I even know if there is a next round? Like I said, I don't even know what I'll be marketing tomorrow. Well, tomorrow, I'll probably still be Empress [inaudible 00:18:59] but next week, I'm not planning that shit in advance and it's a big part of what I'm teaching in Empress as well is for you to just let what's coming up come up and have the fucking trust and faith that that will work. Faith is a motherfucking choice, by the way. Katrina Ruth: And true faith, true faith, oh my God, I'm getting the gold coming through now, true faith, as I was saying to a client this morning is if you fully trusted someone, like let's say maybe it's your partner or maybe a mentor or maybe a close friend or whoever it is. But if there's someone in your life and you fully trust and believe that that person has your back and then you also fully trust and believe that they know what the fuck they're on about, well, then, when they say something or suggest something, you just be like, "Okay," because you have that level of trust. And what if you had that level of trust in your own soul? That's something to think about. Katrina Ruth: Then you wouldn't need to waste all this bullshit time dealing and [inaudible 00:19:56] and weighing up the pros and cons and asking 25,000 people for their fucking opinion. And you could get into the habit of just taking immediate action fast which is a critical part of success. If you can't take immediate action fast, you're gonna find it a very difficult thing altogether to make money on the internet or to really achieve anything of any note or credibility in your life. And when I say credibility, by the way, I mean according to your own values and standards. Katrina Ruth: So, Empress, claim your rightful place now. Read about it in the pinned comment. If you're solely saying yes, message me, I'll get you a right old written overview, it's like an overview, it's like a description, it says things, there might even be some bullet points in there, I'm not sure. Tell you about the entire bonus programme you get which is an entire previously private client only, still private client only but it was sold for $6,000, you get that whole programme as well. You get unlimited access to me, we do start on Monday 25th, places are strictly limited and it is currently selling. Katrina Ruth: Message me right here on my personal page for that. Have an amazing epic day. Why don't you go and unleash something on the fucking internet? Get your head out of your stupid funnels and your opt-in pages and you're worrying about what every other motherfucker is up to and go say something. That's how you're gonna build [inaudible 00:21:10], don't forget, life is now, press play.

Katrina Ruth: Look. I'm going live like that. Do you think this is a good way to get views, at the start of a livestream? We're just gonna have a boob show. It's Katrina with breasts show. Just owning it. I'm gonna own it. The Katrina with breasts show. It's the booby show with Katrina with ... Nobodies even getting on, yet. I'm waiting until I can see that there's viewers on before I sit down. Katrina Ruth: Okay. One person is on. All right. No. I'm just gonna stand here. There's only one person on. Maybe people don't like the boobs, and they're not jumping on. Willy Stain Germaine. Did you get your book published, yet? What's happening over there at Amazon? You should have your own personal Amazon person. Katrina Ruth: Okay. This is too much booby-ness. It's just like boobs! I figure, if I just stick my boobs on the camera, then that's all is really needed. Okay. Should we have a side angle? Do you think it's super inappropriate that I'm doing a boob show, right next to a children's playground? Katrina Ruth: All right. There's the side angle. Aren't they huge? They're way too big. Do you think they're way too big? I'm not kidding. This morning, I woke up. I had at least six messages from some of my closest male friends saying, "I'll just give you some helpful feedback on your boobs. Send before and after." I'm like, "All right. Good suggestion." Katrina Ruth: Hello. The book is live, says Lilly, but the boobs are more exciting. Well, it has happened. It has happened. Mimi, if you're there, you can just drop. Hello, here I am. If you're there, Mimi, you can just drop the teaser about the Millionaire Mastermind, at anytime. Katrina Ruth: Now, I feel bad for you guys, because you can't see my boobs, anymore. Do you think I should just livestream the whole thing like this? I can go up and down, or I could ... No. It's too late. I should have gone that way. Katrina Ruth: So, basically ... Hello, Karin. Basically, I'm here filming today. I'm here with Matt. There he is. I nearly flaked out on him, because I felt so ginormous, not just in my chest area, but in general. I'm just puffy. I just feel huge all over. I had to be freakin' premenstrual, when I got a boob job. So, they're pumped up full of surgery drugs. My stomach went from lean with abs to ... two hours I suppose, during surgery, being ... I just gained, I don't know how much weight even, in one day. Katrina Ruth: Draw some eyes on your boobs and use your hands to animate them. I can't stop touching them. Actually, the surgeon told me to massage them, as much as possible. He's so funny. He's this classic Aussie humour dude. Katrina Ruth: I posted my thing about pulling the tubes out. I'm on the phone to him. I'm like, "I don't know about these tubes, what's going on? Should I come back in and have my boobs taped up again, because the tape had fallen off." He said, "No. Just grab the tube, and yank it out." That's how he says it. I'm like, "Just yank it out?" He's like, "Just yank. Just yank it." So, then I'm pulling and pulling. I put that video up. You guys were so grossed out. I was like, "Gosh. These people have some weak stomachs." I only showed a tiny bit of it. You should have seen, if I would have showed the actual thing. Katrina Ruth: I can't wait 'til the swelling goes down. The swelling is all over my whole body. I think I've gone up two full sizes. I don't know. When did you see me last? Not for a few weeks, right? Matt: Yeah. A couple of weeks. Katrina Ruth: It's hard to tell, then. For sure I have. For sure I have, because shorts are so tight around me, right now. Finally, then my period come today. Now, I don't know. I just know and trust that I'll be lean as fuck again, by Monday. Really, I'm aware that doesn't fucking matter in the greater scheme of things, but it's still annoys me. At least, my hair still looks fabulous. Katrina Ruth: So, that happened. Then, I go in for my check up, yesterday. He's like, "You've just got to squeeze them, all day." He goes, "Just while you're walking down the street, just squeeze them." I'm like, "Yeah. I'm sure that's a good idea." Anyway, there they are again, if you missed them. I don't know, if you can see them, on the livestream, because I think I'm sitting too low. Katrina Ruth: So, I'm here filming with Matt. I wanted to flake out on him, because I felt not boobilicious. I felt the opposite of that. I felt like a walking, talking ... I don't know. Billboard of Gold Coast too much-ness, something like that. I didn't, because I'm a freakin' professional. I didn't cancel. Instead, we filmed for you. We made a little video about why women get boob jobs, and why I think everybody on the internet should shut the fuck up about ... Maybe that should be the title of the video. Why everybody on the internet should shut the fuck up about what women can or can't do with their bodies. Katrina Ruth: There you go. The download always comes to me. I had a boring title before, it just came to me. I think that's gonna be really good, positive empowering content. Of course, it's not telling women to get boob jobs. It's telling women that they can do whatever they want. If you want them, get them. Exactly, Wendy. Katrina Ruth: It's so funny, because even though people know that I'm always gonna do what I want, even in the last two or three days, since posting online about it, I've definitely had several comments along the lines of, "Ah well. I never thought you would go down that path." I was like, "Okay. Cool. Thank you for sharing your unasked for opinion." So, maybe I'm triggered, but whatever. Katrina Ruth: So, we did that. Then, we're filming an episode of the show. Then, we basically had some time to kill. So, not to sound like I don't just love you and want to talk to you anyway, but really why we're live streaming is because I had a little time to kill before getting my daughter from school. And, and, and, because the Millionaire Mastermind, excuse me, Katrina Ruth's High Vibe as Fuck Millionaire Mastermind. I'm just talking to my other camera, here. Is launching Did You Realise, tomorrow. It's launching tomorrow. Katrina Ruth: I've actually pre-launched this shit. I pre-launched my boobs, all week. Well, I guess I launched them. Actually, kind of Patrick and I launched them together, accidentally, on our joint livestream. It wasn't officially supposed to be a boob launch, but that's what happened. So, that happened. It was very low key. If you missed it, you can watch the livestream from yesterday. Hair feels so good. Katrina Ruth: Then, at the same time as pre-launching my breasts, of course I pre-launched my breasts. I don't like it how women get boob jobs, and they don't say anything about it. They pretend that nothing even happened. Then, it's like, "What? These are [inaudible 00:06:05]. I didn't do anything." Isn't the point that people are supposed to notice? Anyways, I just think own your shit. Own all your shit. Katrina Ruth: So, we pre-launched the boobs. It was a very successful launch of the boobs. Everybody signed up. It was a 100% conversion rate. 100% of people wanted to see the boobs. Many people have made comments along ... assumptive comments, I might add, randomly, along the lines of, "I can't wait 'til I touch them." People are just they're assumptive selling me that they get to touch them. Katrina Ruth: Then, quite a few people did indeed private message me, and offer their valuable feedback, which was just very gracious of them really, but no. I didn't send any photos through, but I did on the other hand stand with them right in the camera for two minutes, at the start of a livestream. Katrina Ruth: So, then that happened. Simultaneously, I feel a bit bad for my High Vibe as Fuck Millionaire Mastermind, now, because I feel like, "Aw. Sorry. You're more like kind of the ugly sister now, because I pre-launched the breasts at the same time, as pre-launching the High Vibe as Fuck Millionaire Mastermind." Katrina Ruth: When offered the choice, most people seem to be leaning toward the breasts, but the great new is, you can have it all. You can always have it all. You'll get me with my new addition. We'll just see how it settles in, and becomes part of me. I got to go and buy lots of new bikinis and bras this afternoon. At least I've got to buy one new bra, because I'm going out to dinner tonight, going out for a night out tonight. Even though my doctor told me, "Don't wear a bra, as often as possible." I feel like that would just be a little bit too much for [Burley 00:07:36] to handle, if I was going out with no bra. Katrina Ruth: So, I'll do that. Now, I'm actually gonna launch the Millionaire Mastermind. Not right now, no. You can wait, until tomorrow. My High Vibe as Fuck Millionaire Mastermind is ... What did I just say it was? Is the mindset and the strategy of crushing it online for entrepreneurs and crazy creators who just want more. It is my new membership programme. It is the number one membership programme, in the world for bad ass entrepreneurs and crazy creators. It launches tomorrow, at 9:00 am, Brisbane time, which is gonna be roughly 12, 18 hours and 16 minutes, from now. It's 7:00 pm Friday evening, New York, Eastern Standard Time that it launches. Katrina Ruth: Now, you're gonna want to be on Facebook, or on your e-mail, or wherever you're gonna find me, or think that you're gonna find me, at that time, because we have an amazing founding members, inaugural members offer, which is, in fact, over ... Let me just do some fast math, in my head. It's less than, or it's about one sixth of the actual price for founding members. What's that in a percentage? Do some fast ... Matt: One sixth? Katrina Ruth: Yeah. How much percentage discount is that? Matt's gonna tell you. Matt's gonna show his math wizardry, right now, on camera. Matt: One sixth ... Katrina Ruth: Don't hide behind the camera. Matt: Like 12. Katrina Ruth: 12%? Matt: Could be horribly wrong. Katrina Ruth: It's terribly wrong. 12 times six is only 70, 80, 72. Matt: 15. Katrina Ruth: We'll work it out, as a team. Matt: 15. Katrina Ruth: So, three sixth is 50%. So, one sixth is one third of 50%, which is 16 point six, six percent. Matt: How much? Katrina Ruth: 16 point six, six. Matt: Close enough. Katrina Ruth: All right. We worked it out together. So, basically, it's 16 point six, six percent. I just worked it out, just there. Nobody told me earlier. Well, Matt worked it out really. It was a team effort. Katrina Ruth: So, you definitely want to be there for that. 9:00 am tomorrow, my time. 7:00 pm, New York, Eastern Standard time. There's really not much else for me to tell you about it. I'm just gonna tell you, apart from the draw on the floor, hell yes, offer of the launch itself, you'll be magnetised as fuck by what this programme, membership is about. It definitely required a little bit of wine, and, I'm gonna admit, sexual healing therapy for me to come to terms with the fact that I am not necessarily the main start in this programme, because my entire team is coming in, and co-teaching this programme with me. Katrina Ruth: It's an ongoing membership programme where each month we'll be showing you exactly what we're working on, and literally giving you our marketing, and selling, and advertising strategies, as well as social media, and every other thing that you could imagine. So, they'll be a monthly report, essentially, showing you exactly what we've done. Then, teaching you how you can implement it. You'll have access to my team for support, and accountability, and mentoring, as well as me. There's so much more, but that kind of gives you, I guess, a little insight into why you would definitely want to check this out. Katrina Ruth: It's been coming, for about six months. The idea's been gurgling up? What's the word I'm looking for? Gurgitating? Is that a word? It's not a word, is it? Matt: [inaudible 00:10:49] Katrina Ruth: What's the word I'm looking for? Brewing. We'll go with brewing. There was definitely a different word. Katrina Ruth: The idea's been bubbling away inside of me for six months, but I really first started to bring it to light in February, I think. I was on a plane from Brisbane to LA with my brother Ash, who's on my team and does all my marketing and stuff. We definitely got brewing. There was a cooler kind of grosser, grungier word, harder than brewing, but I don't know what it was. I feel like it was along the lines of gurgitating, but that's not it. Katrina Ruth: So, it started to come up in February. Well, maybe it was regurgitating, because I'm saying come up. Matt: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: Regurgitated. Matt: Brewing [inaudible 00:11:25]. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Well, it was brewing and gurg- I'm going with gurgitating. I'm allowed to make my own words. Katrina Ruth: It started to come up in February, but it was more like we've got the skeleton of the idea. Germinating, Tracy, what a legend. She just read my mind. That was the exact word that I meant. Germinating. Give the girl a prize. Very happy about that. Katrina Ruth: I think there was a lot of Campari involved. That was the problem. When we first had the idea, because we were on a flight from Brisbane to LA. We were sitting at the bar, in Virgin. Yes. There was much Campari involved, but it was fabulous, nonetheless. I know for sure it was a little crazy, because the tagline that I wrote down, at the time, we somehow ... We were getting stuck on the lyrics of that song, I wanna be a billionaire. So, then we came up with the title, Katrina Ruth's Millionaire Mastermind, which has now evolved into Katrina's High Vibe as Fuck Millionaire Mastermind, because that's what it is. Katrina Ruth: Then, I ended up writing down on my sales page draught that the tagline for the programme was gonna be for entrepreneurs who wanna be a billionaire so frickin' bad. Then, I looked at it a week later, when I was in Santa Monica. I'm like, "Yeah. I think that half of what I've written on this page came from a place of listening to my Spotify downloads, while on a plane drinking Campari." Really, it's true anyway. Katrina Ruth: So, it kind of came through then, but because it involves the whole team. Actually, an unannounced bonus that I just thought of right then, which is why it hasn't been announced yet, is that I will teach you the creation of this membership programme, and how we fully brought the idea to life, and how we're launching it, and how to create a membership programme that sells like a mother fucker. So, I'm gonna do a bonus training on that for all my new members. In fact, I'll do it next week. Katrina Ruth: We're gonna open tomorrow. It'll be open for only 72 hours. You don't have to remember that, because there'll be a countdown timer on the page to remind you, plus me on social media reminding you for three days. Yes. I definitely wanna teach you how we put it all together. It's probably one of the questions that I got asked a lot. I've run many membership programmes, very successfully, now, over the years. A lot of people want membership programmes, because they're recurring income, but there's definitely a model that works versus a model that doesn't work. Katrina Ruth: There's definitely very clear reasons on why people stay in membership programmes, or why they leave them. So, I'm gonna teach on that, and teach how you can design a membership programme that creates automated, recurring income for you, for your business, while simultaneously drawing in your high end, high ticket clients, that just wanna automatically sign up with you, and pay you without you even having to do any sort of ... I don't do discovery calls. I usually don't even do launches for my high ticket stuff. Katrina Ruth: I have a really great system in place, where my lower model stuff feeds into my high ticket stuff, automatically. So, membership programmes are one part of that. So, I think I'm gonna do a whole bonus training on that. Mimi, if you're still watching, transcribe that down, so that we can use it in our promotions, as a bonus. I'll include it ... Tell, Ashley, even, to include it, or Callie, to include it on the sales page, because Callie's re-editing the sales page, right now. In the section where I say what I'm covering on next Wednesday's first live training for the Millionaire Mastermind. Katrina Ruth: Thank you Lily, but did you see my breasts? Lily said I look sexy. I don't know, if they can be seen on the camera, because when I'm sitting down, it says that I'm from there, but then often later when I look, it's lower. I don't know. Can you see them, now, you guys? Give me a love heart shower, if you can see my boobs. Things I thought I would never say on a Facebook livestream, but then I might think you're giving me a love heart shower, because you're nice. She says, "Meow." Okay. The love hearts are coming. Katrina Ruth: What else? What have I missed? I went off on a tangent. Hannah said, "Did they hurt?" Well, I did Mai Thai this morning. Look at this. I can move my arms everywhere. They feel really tight. They feel super stretchy, bit uncomfortable to sleep, and where this one tube came out on this side, that hurts. It feels like it's gonna come open, and bleed again, but whatever. It's not that big of a deal. It's only blood. There's a little bit of bruising. I don't know. I feel like I'm having amazing recovery. I actually talk on the next episode of the show that we just filmed today, I talk about how I manifested fast healing, and then kind of relate that to not buying into normal ideas of how long things should take. Just in all areas, right? Maybe I'm just lucky with my healing. Maybe I'm just super stretchy. Katrina Ruth: Actually, that's a good point. I have really pliable skin, because I eat really well. I eat a lot of good fats, in my diet. This a true thing. I am not talking shit here. I include a lot of good fats, in my diet. I'm very fit, and healthy. So, my skin is, of course, pliable. Whenever I get my tattoos done, Vlad's always like, "How do you heal so quickly? You heal so fast." I said to him, "I think, because I have a high metabolism, and because I'm really healthy." He's like, "Yeah. That actually makes sense." Katrina Ruth: Also, by the way, the more stressed you are, in general, the more cortisol hormone you have in your body, which inflames you, and it slows down healing. I might get stressed, from time to time, but I'm pretty freakin' in flow, and alignment with my life. So, overall, my inflammation levels and my cortisol is pretty low, I think, or just good, maybe. I don't know. I really feel like that's probably a big part of my healing, as well. Katrina Ruth: I know for sure, it's also just, because I believed it, and it went under the muscle, by the way. We didn't even say this on the show. He went in through the nipple, sounds disgusting, sliced at the bottom of the nipple. The implants went under the muscle, which supposedly is way more painful than anything else, at all, accept I'm fine. Even at Mai Thai, this morning, I was like, "I could totally punch." We did shadow boxing, but I put the video up, already, on my Facebook. You can see it. I was doing kicks with no problem. It just feels a bit stretchy. Katrina Ruth: I can sleep on my side, or on my back. The good thing is I don't have to protect them, meaning ... I don't mean don't protect them, but meaning I don't have to worry about movement. He was like, "The more movement, the better." That's why I went to training, this morning. I definitely wouldn't do anything that I thought would be a bad idea for them. I don't know. Katrina Ruth: Do you have any other questions, because I've run out of things to say, and the school bell's going in seven minutes, which is actually plenty of time, because the school's only over the road. What else should I tell you? Did I leave anything out? Have you guys got any questions? Who wants to ask me one powerful question that's gonna benefit the entire community? Go, or just leave a random comment of interest, if you don't have a question. Katrina Ruth: Millionaire Mastermind's gonna be epic. I'm very proud of it. I'm very excited that my whole team are getting involved. It's a really bid deal, actually. There's nothing like this on the internet, at all. Well, I think probably partly, because there's very few entrepreneurs, online marketers, who built a really locked in, solid team like mine. Of course, there's others out there, but I have a pretty solid team. They do all the things. They do an amazing job of it. It's extremely rare to have a programme where the team is actually teaching, as well. So, this is something that I did get a bit, "Urg" about it, because I'm like, "I'm the star. I'm the star," but I knew that it's time for me to pass that baton on, because they do an incredible job doing so many things in my business that allow me to be that star, and allow me to be the front person, and just do my content. Katrina Ruth: So, I think it would be really selfish, and kind of irresponsible of me, to be honest, if I wasn't to allow them to step up, and share their gifts with you. I know it's gonna be so powerful. It's just so exciting. If you're in the High Vibe as Fuck Millionaire Mastermind is the two point O version of that. I'm gonna post something into High Vibe about it, but you get transferred in, plus goodies. Katrina Ruth: Okay. What were these questions? How do I increase my metabolism? Well, strength training, cardio training, or the obvious fitness things, I guess, as well as eating plenty of protein. 20 years history of fitness, for sure, is part of it. There's been times in my fitness journey where I've definitely been training well, and eating well, and then I haven't been maintaining or achieving my body goals. Katrina Ruth: So, it's largely up here. I believe that I have a high metabolism. I believe my body works like a well oiled machine. I believe that I have healthy, happy hormones, and I believe that I get the results in the body I want, inside and out. I know, for sure, that's the real reason I do, because, like I said, there's been times, when I have been doing all the right things, and I didn't have the results that I wanted. Then, there's been times, where I was completely not giving a fuck, and eating whatever I wanted, and looked fuckin' amazing, because I just didn't believed I was so good. Katrina Ruth: So, it's always mindset first, which is why I just Whatsapped Bromwyn just before doing this livestream. I saw that I'd put the working wrong on the banner for the Millionaire Mastermind. It said, "The strategy and the mindset." I just messaged her. I was like, "Wait. That should be the mindset and the strategy." It's always mindset first. Katrina Ruth: Debbie says, "Do I use meditation for healing?" I don't expressly use meditation for healing, but I do use meditation pretty regularly. I listen to mediation audios, not every day, but probably five days out of seven, if I feel a bit brain frazzled, or just even, if I want to. I go into a meditative state, just in and of myself, pretty frequently. Sometimes, even when I'm driving, I can separate that out. Often, after yoga, I use meditation a lot, in lots of different ways, through the day. Katrina Ruth: Thank you, Lakisha. All right. So, I'm gonna go. Thank you for being here. Make sure you're online tomorrow morning at 9:00 am, my time, which is 7:00 pm, New York time, on Friday evening, for the launch of Katrina Ruth's High Vibe as Fuck Millionaire Mastermind. The mindset and the strategy of crushing it online for driven entrepreneurs, and crazy creators who just want more. More what? More everything. Katrina Ruth: Leave me a comment. I'll read it later. Don't forget, life is now. Press play.

An interview with Alison Gianotto / Snipe, creator of Snipe IT Snipe.net Snipe-IT @snipeyhead Editing sponsored by Larajobs Transcription sponsored by GoTranscript.com [music] Matt: All right, cool. All right. Welcome back to the latest episode of Laravel Podcast. It's been a little bit of a break for those of you who tune in to every new episode, but I've got another great interview here. As with every single one, I'm interested and excited to introduce someone to you. Some of you have heard of before, a lot of you might not know that she actually works in Laravel. Either way, it's going to be great. This is Snipe. Although in my head, you have been Snipeyhead because I feel that's been your Twitter name for a while. Real name, Alison Gianotto, but I'm probably just going to end up calling you Snipe for rest of this call. Before I go in asking you questions, the first thing I want to do is just I always ask somebody, if you meet somebody in the grocery store who you know isn't technical at all, and they ask you, "What do you do?" What's the first way you answer that question? Snipe: I say I work with computers. Matt: Right, and then if they say, "My cousin works with computers and whatever." Where do you go from there? Snipe: Well, it depends on their answer. If they say, "Do you fix computers?" I'm like, "Not exactly." If they say, "Really? What type of computer work do you do?" I say, "Well, I'm a programmer." They're like, "So you make games?" "Well, not exactly." If they say something like, "Mobile apps or web? What languages?" Then I'm like, "Okay, now I can actually have a conversation." I don't do it to be disrespectful to the person asking. It's just confusing to them, and so I like to keep it bite-sized enough that no one gets confused. Matt: If you talk to a grandma in a store who doesn't have much exposure with computers, and you say, "Well, I work in InfoSec with blah-blah-blah." Then she's going to go, "Huh?" I totally hear you. If somebody does ask and they say, "You know what? I actually work in Rails," or, "I know what a framework is." How do you answer someone when they are more technical? Let's say, somebody-- You understand that this person is going to get all the names that you drop. Where do you go from there? How do you tell someone about what you do? Snipe: I actually usually say that I run a software company. I say, "I run a small software company that basically works on open source software." Usually, they look at me like, "How do you--" Matt: How do you make money? Snipe: Literally makes no sense. [laughter] Matt: Which is where we're going to go. Let's actually go there. Snipe-IT, it's a company that has an open source product. I'm guessing that you make your money by paid support plans and hosting plans. Right? Then you also have the whole thing available for free in open source? Snipe: That's correct. Yes. Matt: Could you give us a little pitch for anybody who doesn't know what Snipe-IT is, and what it does, and who it's for? Snipe: I'm so bad at this. I'm the worst salesperson ever. Matt: Well, I'm helping you grow. [laughter] Matt: Thirty seconds or less. Snipe: If you have any kind of a company and you buy assets like laptops, or desktops, or monitors, you need to keep track of them and you know who has what, what software is installed on what. Then usually I'm like, "I've got this nailed. I've got this nailed." Then I end up saying, "It's not a very sexy project, but people need it." [chuckles] Matt: Right, right, right. You have to justify yourself in your sales. Snipe: I know it. I really do. I'm really the worst at it. People get really excited. We're going to DEF CON this year like we usually do. I'm actually bringing my whole crew. Matt: Cool. Snipe: Because I really want them to be able to experience the way people react when they realize that we are Snipe-IT because they just get so excited. I've had people run across the conference floor to give me a hug that I've never met. Matt: Wow. Snipe: It's really cool. There was another time I was talking to, I think, YTCracker on the conference floor. He introduces me to one of his friends. He's like, "Yes, she's got a IT asset management software." He's like, "Really? I just heard about one of those. That was really great." I know exactly where this is going. I'm watching him look at his phone. He's like, "Yes, I just heard about it. It's really amazing. I think through your competition." I'm just sitting there smirking and I'm like, "Okay." Totally, I know exactly where this is going, but I let him spend five minutes looking it up on his phone. He's like, "It's called Snipe It?" I just look at him like, "Hi, I'm Snipe." [laughter] Snipe: It was actually wonderful. Matt: It's one of the benefits not just of having the company, but actually naming it after yourself. You're like, "No. I'm actually the Snipe. That's me." Snipe: I'm excited to bring my crew out to DEF CON this year so they can really get to experience that first hand. Because like anything else in open source and in company support in general, a lot of times, you only hear the negative stuff. You hear about when something is broken or when something doesn't work exactly the way they want it to work. To actually get just random people coming up-- I'm getting us swag. I'm getting us t-shirts printed out. I'm super excited. Matt: I love it. There's nothing like having the opportunity to see the people who love what you're doing to really motivate you to go back and do it again. I hear that, for sure. Snipe: Definitely. Open source can be really tough with that because for the most part, the only thing that you're hearing is, "It doesn't work," or, "Why doesn't it do it do this thing?" Or people telling you how they think your software should work. To just get basically unbridled love, it really recharges me. It makes me want to work on a project even harder. Matt: Plus, the phrase unbridled love is just fantastic. [laughter] Matt: It should be in our lexicon more often. Snipe: I agree. Matt: It's asset management software. I'm imagining I've got a 500-person company, and every single person gets issued a laptop within certain specs. After it's a certain amount of time old, then it gets replaced. We're going to make sure they have the latest build of whatever, Windows and the latest security patches, and that kind of stuff. It's at the point where you don't have-- My company has, I think, 17 people right now. There is just a spreadsheet somewhere. This is when you get to the point where a spreadsheet is really missing people. People aren't getting their upgrades. People don't have security updates. My guess was the reason there was InfoSec involved in this at DEF CON is because security updates is a big piece of why that's the case. Did I assume right? Could you tell us a little bit more about how InfoSec and security are related to what you're doing here? Snipe: You're kind of right. We don't currently have a network agent, so we don't have anything that listens on the wire. We do have a JSON REST API, though. Basically, we're now working with folks like Jira, Atlassian, and we're going to be working with a JaMP API to try and basically make that stuff easier. I feel like its out of scope for us to try and build another networking agent, but we have an API. If we can just build those bridges, then it just makes it a little bit easier. Ultimately, in terms of security, the real reason why I think people in InfoSec appreciate this tool, especially given the fact that we don't have-- And some people in InfoSec actually like the fact that we don't have a monitoring agent because that actually becomes a separate problem in and of itself. Let me give you a backstory on why I created this in the first place. Matt: Please do. Snipe: Maybe that'll help explain a little bit more. I was the CTO of an ad agency in New York City. We had grown from-- I think I was employee number 12, and we were now at 60 something people. We were using a Google Sheet shared between three IT people, some of which were not necessarily the most diligent- [laughter] Matt: Sure. Snipe: -about keeping things up to date. Basically, when you've got a single point of truth that is no longer a single point of truth, it becomes a bit of a hellish nightmare. Additionally, if you're repurposing-- Because it's an ad agency, so you have a lot of turnover. You don't have any history on any particular asset if this asset is actually bad. If the hard drive on this is actually just bad and should be replaced. If this is bad hardware, then we should consider just unsetting it, and getting a brand new box, whatever. We had to move offices. We were moving our main office and also our data center. Of course, when you're trying to move a 60-person company, and servers, and everything else, the very first thing that you have to do is to know what you have. That was an enlightening experience. It basically turned out that we had about $10,000 worth of hardware that we just didn't know where it was anymore. Matt: Wow. Snipe: People got fired. This is basically before I was a CTO and before I had set up the exiting process. People had been fired or had quit and just taken their laptops with them. That's got company data on it. That was a huge, huge issue for us. I was like, "Okay, we need something that we can integrate into our exit strategy or exit process to make sure that we're reclaiming back all of the data that--" Because some of those stuff is client data. It's actually really sensitive from a corporate perspective. Also, sometimes it's customer data. It was really important to have a way to handle that a bit better. That's it. The asset part is the most important part of that software. We do have support for licenses where the cloud offering portion of that is not as fully developed. We're going to be building in a services section soon. That will describe, for example, if you had Snipe-IT as a vendor, where would we fit in this ecosystem for our customers? We don't actually have a good answer for that. We're going to be building out a services section that lets you know how much money you're paying every month, how many seats you have. Matt: That's great. That would cover not just global stuff, but also individual subscriptions like Adobe and PHP-- Snipe: Sure, sure. Matt: Cool. That's awesome. Snipe: Licenses are really hard. They're hard because you can have-- One of our customers actually has a hundred thousand licenses. Matt: Oh, my Lord. Snipe: Because you've got this notion of a software license and then a bunch of different seats. There are some licenses that have one seat, and only one seat they only ever will. Then there are ones that have tens of thousands. For example, Microsoft Suite. If you have a large company, you're going to have a lot of those licenses. One of the things I care really deeply about in Snipe-IT, and I think one of the reasons why we've been successful in this really saturated marketplace, because it is a really saturated marketplace, is that I care a lot about the users' experience. I know, for example, that our licenses section, the UI on that, the UX on that is not as optimized as it could be. That will be the next thing that we're really tackling is because it is a popular section. It's one that because of the nature of the variability of licenses, makes that a really tricky UX problem to solve. That's one of the things that I love about this work is getting to solve those kinds of problems. Matt: You're just starting to make me interested in this which means you're doing your job of the sales pitch. You said you got something you're super comfortable with. Snipe: [laughs] Matt: I always struggle-- Somebody made a joke and they said something like, "It's a drinking game for how many times Matt says 'I could talk about this for hours' during a podcast." Snipe: I did see that, yes. Matt: We're there already. [laughter] Matt: I want to step back from Snipe-IT just a little bit. Snipe It, I want to call it Snipe It now that you said that. Snipe: Please don't call it that. [laughs] Matt: I won't, I promise. Think a little bit about what got you to here, and what got you to the point where you're a name and an online persona. I saw you had some interactions with @SwiftOnSecurity the other day. Everyone got all excited seeing the two of you interacting. What was the story? I want to eventually go back to when you got into computers in the first place. First, what was the story of the process of you going from just any other person on the Internet, on Twitter, on GitHub, or whatever to being a persona that is relatively well-known across multiple communities? Snipe: I can't really answer that for you because I don't really understand it myself. Other than lots of poop jokes-- Matt: It's the best. Snipe: Yes. [chuckles] I think, probably, I've been on Twitter for a while. Also, I was on IRC for a long time. I think I'm still an op in the ##php channel on Freenode, although I don't visit there as often as I used to. I was really involved in that as I was learning PHP, and as I was helping other people learn PHP. I don't know. I've always been a mouthy broad, and I think that's probably worked because whether you like me or not, you remember me. [laughs] Matt: Yes, for sure. Snipe: I'm doing my very best to not swear on your podcast, by the way. I've caught myself at least five times that I'm like, "No, no, no." [laughs] Matt: If it happens, it happens but I appreciate it. Snipe: I'm doing my very best. I'm at a conference-- Matt: Broad was a good one, yes. All right, exactly. Snipe: Yes, I know. Yes, exactly. I was like, "B-b-b-broad." Matt: [laughs] Snipe: Which is an offensive term in and of itself, but it's still- Matt: We toned it down a little. Snipe: -better than the alternative, I think. [laughter] Matt: I love it. Snipe: I'm trying my best here, Matt. Matt: I appreciate it very much. Was it in the world of PHP? First of all, I heard longevity. I've been here for a while. That's always a big win. Poop jokes, that's also obviously big win. Give the people what they want. Snipe: I don't know if I can say dick jokes on your podcast. Matt: Well, you did. There we are. Snipe: Dick jokes are definitely big part of my repertoire. [laughs] Matt: Yes, I know. Being an interesting person, having been around for a while, but was it in PHP, and teaching PHP, and being around in the PHP world for a while, was that the main space where you came to prominence versus InfoSec, versus being open source business owner? Was it primarily in being a PHP personality where you came to at least your original knownness? Snipe: I think probably. Probably, yes. When I grab onto something, I don't let go of it. I've been doing some Perl work. I've probably started with Perl, but that was back in the days when I ran Linux as a desktop on purpose. [laughs] Matt: Oh, my goodness. Snipe: I was writing some Perl stuff. Heard about this this crazy thing called PHP which looked way easier and was way more readable, and ended up writing some-- Now, terribly insecure. I know this now, because it's like 2000, 2001, something like that. Which is for going back a ways. I had just started to put out stupid scripts like e-card scripts and things like that, because they served the need that I needed to have filled. This is a well-known secret, but I worked Renaissance Fairs for a very long time. I was guild member number four of the International Wenches Guild. Matt: What? Snipe: Yes. That's not even the most interesting thing I can tell you. Anyway, I was running their website Wench.org which now looks terrible because Facebook took over that community. I used to have interactive like sending roses to each other. Because in the Renaissance Fair community, different rose colors have different meaning. It's basically like an online greeting card thing with these built-in rose color meanings. You could pick different colors of roses and send them to people that you liked, or people you didn't like, or whatever. Having this playground of a huge community of people who-- Basically, I would post to the forums. I'd say, "I'm thinking about building this. What do you guys think?" By the time they actually answered me, I had already built it anyway. I was just like, "This looks really interesting. I want to see if I can do this." Matt: To do it, yes. Snipe: Yes, exactly. It was really, really cool to have access to, basically, a beta-testing community that was super excited about anything that I put out. It definitely stoked the fires for me, stretching and doing things that I may not have done if I didn't have a reason to do it before. Matt: Well, I love how much passion plays a part there. Not this ill-defined like, "I'm passionate about programming. That means I spend all my free time doing it," but more like-- I've noticed that a lot of people who are a little bit older had PHP-- Actually, just developers in general which is quite a few people I've had on the show. Snipe: Are you calling me old? Matt: Me too. I'm in the group too. Snipe: Are you calling me old? Oh my God. That's it. This interview is over. [laughter] Matt: You're going to burn the place down. I think those of us who started back when becoming a programmer wasn't necessarily going to make you big and rich. There's a little bit of that idea today. Go do a six-month boot camp, and then you're going to be rich or something. I think when a lot of us started-- I'm putting myself in that bucket, in the '90s and the '80s. When we started, it was because it was something that allowed us to do things we couldn't do otherwise. I don't know your whole back story, so I want to hear it, but a lot of the people I've noticed, "I was in the dancing community. I was in the video game community. I was in the Renaissance whatever Fair community." Snipe: I used to work on Wall Street. That was what I was doing before I got into computers. [laughs] Matt: Okay. Well, before I talk anymore, we need to talk about this. Tell me the story. Tell me about Wall Street, and then tell me when did you actually first get into computers? Snipe: I left high school. I was living with my sister in a tent in Montana for about nine months. Then it got too cold, our toothpaste started to freeze during the day. We were like, "F this business." We went down to Colorado because we'd met some friends at Colorado School of Mines. Stayed there for a little bit. Came back to New Jersey, and was like, "Well, I don't want to go to college. I also don't have any money for college." [laughs] There's that. I ended up waitressing for a little bit. Was waitressing, wearing my indoor soccer shoes, because I was a soccer player for 13 years. The coach from Caine College came in to eat at my restaurant. He looks at me with disdain and he goes, "You actually play soccer with those, or are they just for fashion?" Matt: Oh, my goodness. Snipe: I'm like, "Bitch, I was All-State. What are you talking about?" [laughter] Snipe: He's like, "Do you want to go to college?" I'm like, "I guess." He invited me to go to Caine College where I studied education of the hearing impaired for exactly one semester. [laughter] Snipe: I was like, "Holy crap. This is so boring. I can't do this." Not the education of the hearing impaired part. Matt: Just college. Snipe: Yes, it just wasn't my jam. I was like, "I want to move to New York." I moved to New York City. I pick up a paper, and I'm like, "Okay, I'm super not qualified to do any of these things." Basically, I was a leatherworker at a Renaissance Fair. I'd done makeup work for the adult film industry. I'm like, "Um." Of course, the easiest way to Wall Street is sales. I had the most grueling interview I've ever had in my life, because I didn't know anything about real sales compared to retail. I remember sweating so hard. I'd just dyed my hair back to a normal color. You could still see a little bit of green in it, and I'm wearing my sister's fancy, fancy suit. I have no idea what I'm actually going to be doing there. It is literally out of Glengarry Glen Ross, high-pressure sales that they're expecting from me. I'm like, "I'm 17, 18 years old. I have no idea what I'm doing." I managed to pull it out. At the very last minute, I got the job. Matt: Nice. Snipe: Was working at a place that did forex futures. Then they went out of business because the principals moved back to Argentina with all of our clients' money. That spent a little bit of time in the attorney general's office, making it really clear that we had nothing to do with it. Matt: At least it was there and not jail. Snipe: That's absolutely true. It's not that uncommon that the main traders are the ones that actually have the access to the real money. Then we started working at a stock shop. I realized I was working until six, seven o'clock at night, busting my ass all for lines in a ledger. I was actually pretty good at that job, but I also caught myself using those creepy, sleazy sales techniques on my friends and my family. When you catch yourself saying, "Well, let me ask you this." You're like, "Ah, ah." Matt: "I hate myself. Oh, my God, what am I doing?" Snipe: I know. I just realized that I hated myself, and that I didn't want to do it anymore. I quit my job. I had a boyfriend at that time that had a computer. That's pretty much it. I had done some basic programming, literally BASIC programming in high school. Matt: Like QBasic? Snipe: Yes. BASIC in high school. In fact, funny story, when I wrote my first book-- I almost didn't graduate high school because my parents were getting divorced, and I just checked out. I was good in all my classes, I just checked out. I had to pass a computer programming class in order to graduate. My teacher, who was the track coach as well, Coach Terrell, he knew me from soccer. He calls me into his office. He's like, "Alison, I've got to tell you. You just weren't here, and you know that if you don't show up, I penalize you for that. Did really well on all your tests, but attendance is not optional in this class. I just don't think I can pass you." I'm like, "I'm not going to graduate then." He's like, "All right. Well, the thing is that when you're here, you do really good work. I'm going to let you go this time, but you've really got to get your shit together." Matt: Wow. Snipe: When I published my first programming book, I sent him a copy. [laughter] Matt: That's awesome. Snipe: I wrote on the inside, "Dear Coach Terrell, thanks for having faith in me." [laughs] Matt: That's amazing, and you know he has that sitting on the shelf where everyone can see it. Snipe: Yes, yes, yes. Matt: That's really cool. Snipe: That was really nice of him. [laughs] My life would have had a slightly different outcome if I'd had to take some more time, and get a GED, and everything else just because I didn't show up to my programming class. Matt: Wow. Snipe: Anyway, I left Wall Street because I had a soul, apparently. Matt: Turns out. Snipe: It turns out, "Surprise." I totally still have one. [laughter] Matt: It's funny because you're telling me this whole story, and what I'm seeing in front of my face in Skype is your avatar. For anyone who's never seen this avatar, it's got a star around one eye, smirky, slanty eyes, looking down where you're like, "I'm going to get you." It's funny hearing you tell this story, and just the dissonance is so strong of seeing that, hearing your voice, and then hearing you talk about being on Wall Street. Obviously, I'm looking back. Hindsight is 20/20, but seeing this story turned out the way it has so far does not surprise me, looking at the picture of you that I'm looking at right now. Snipe: Mohawk people have souls too. Matt: It turns out, yes. Snipe: I got that mohawk as a fundraiser for EFF. Matt: Really? Snipe: I raised like $1,500 for EFF a bunch of years ago. Matt: You just liked it and kept it? Snipe: Yes. Once I had it, I was like, "Wait a minute. This completely fits me. Why did I not have this my entire life?" Matt: That's awesome. Snipe: Yes, there was a good reason behind it. Matt: Honestly, what I meant is actually the inverse which is that I associate having the soul-- When you imagine a soulless, crushing New York City job where you hate what you're doing, you don't usually associate it with the sense of owning who I am and myself that is associated with the picture I'm looking at right in front of me. Your boyfriend at that time had a computer, you actually had a little bit of history because you'd studied at least some coding. You said primarily and BASIC in high school. Where did you go from there? Was that when you were doing the Renaissance Fairs, and you started building that? Or was there a step before that? Snipe: No. Remember, this is back when the Web-- I'm 42. Matt: I wasn't making any assumptions about what the Web was like at that point. Snipe: I think there might have been one HTML book that was about to come out. That's where we were. If you wanted to do anything on the Web, you basically figured out how to right-click- Matt: View source them. Snipe: -and view source, and you just poked at things until they did what you wanted. There was no other way around that. I realized that I really liked it because it let me say what I wanted to say, it let me make things look-- For what we had back then, we didn't have JavaScript, or CSS, or any of that stuff. Matt: Right. Use that cover tag. Snipe: Yes, exactly. It was enormously powerful to be able to have things to say, and put them out there, and other people could see it. Then I just started to freelance doing that. I was also doing some graphic design for one of those-- It's like the real estate magazines, like Autotrader type of things but for cars. I used to do photo correction for them using CorelDraw, I think it was. Matt: Oh, my gosh, that's a throwback. Snipe: Yes. I'm an old, old woman. [laughter] Matt: I've used CorelDraw in my day, but it's been a long time. Snipe: Our hard drives would fill up every single day, and so we'd have to figure out what had already gone to press that we can delete it off. Basically, Photoshopping, to use Photoshop as a verb inappropriately, garbage cans and other stuff out of people's black and white, crappy photos. Because he was nice enough to give me a job. I offered and I said, "You know, I can make you a website." He's like, "Yes, the Internet's a fad." I was like, "I'm just trying to build up my portfolio, dude, for you for free." He's like, "Yes, yes, yes, it's not going to stick." I'm like, "Okay." [laughs] Matt: All right, buddy. Snipe: That's where it started. Then I think I moved to Virginia for a short amount of time, and then Georgia. Got a job at a computer telephony company where I was running their website, and also designing trade show materials like booths and stuff, which, by the way, I had no idea how to do. No one was more surprised than I was when they took pictures of the trade show and the booth actually looked amazing. Matt: That should look good. Snipe: I was like, "Look, yes." Matt: "Hey, look at that." [laughter] Snipe: That's very, very lucky. There was definitely a lot of fake it until you make it. Also, I've never designed a trade show booth, but trade show booths do get designed by someone, and at least a handful of those people have never done it before. Matt: Right. I'm relatively intelligent person, I understand the general shape of things. Snipe: Yes. Get me some dimensions, I'm sure I could make this work. Matt: What is the DPI thing again? [chuckles] Snipe: Yes, exactly. That was exciting and fun. Then I moved back to New York to teach web design and graphic design at an extension of Long Island University. Matt: Cool. Snipe: Yes, it was actually very, very cool. The school was owned by these two teeny-tiny Israeli ladies. They were absolutely fabulous. It was kind of a crash course in Hasidic and Orthodox Jewish culture. It was in Flatbush, so basically, 90% of my students were Hasidic or Orthodox. I think I broke every rule ever. The two owners of the school would just look at me and laugh. They wouldn't offer me any guidance. They just liked watching. Matt: Well, it would be awkward. Yes. Snipe: Exactly. I'm like, "Why would you do that to me?" [laughter] Snipe: They're just laughing. I could hear them laughing from upstairs- Matt: That's hilarious. Snipe: -when they knew I was putting my foot in another cultural mess. That was really, really fun. I learned a lot from that. I learned a lot about teaching. I even got to have a deaf student one time, which was great, except I didn't know-- I used to know or still know American sign language, but when I learned, there weren't any computer-related signs. It was actually a weird barrier that I hadn't thought about. We're like, "Okay, I can sign as I'm talking," but then I'm like, "Wait, do I have to spell all this stuff out every single time? I have no idea." That was cool. Then I started just doing HTML for a company called Cybergirl, which is not a porn site. I always have to clarify that. Not that there's anything wrong with porn, but it was not, in fact, a porn site. It was an online women's community. Matt: Cool. Snipe: They weren't really super profitable in the community itself, so they had a separate part that did websites for clients. I was put on to work mostly with their clients. They had stuff written in ASP, ColdFusion. Because the people who had designed it weren't there anymore, I basically had to learn all of these languages. Also, we only had a part time sysadmin, so when we'd hire someone new, I'm like, "I guess I'm creating email accounts for people now." I became a stand-in for a lot of different roles. Got to play with a lot of different languages, some of which I liked vastly better than others. ColdFusion? Really? [laughs] Matt: ASP wasn't that bad. There was worse things than classic ASP. Snipe: Yes, there are. That is a thing that could be said. That is an opinion one might have. [laughter] Matt: Trying to keep a positive spin on it. Snipe: I would say that all of these languages, the ones that are still around, have come a very long way since then, including PHP. Matt: Yes, yes. .NET is not a classic ASP. PHP 5, whatever. PHP 7 is no PHP 3, for sure. Snipe: Certainly. Matt: Were you using PHP at that point already, then? Was that one your-- Snipe: Yes. That was one I was-- Because I'd already done some Perl stuff, and it just wasn't that hard. One of our clients had a website, I think it was The Bone Marrow Foundation, had their website in PHP. That forced me to do a bit more legwork on it. That was the beginnings, the very beginnings. Matt: At that point, we're probably talking about single-page PHP files for each page. At the top, you've got a common.inc that you're doing your database connections. Then below that, it's just a template, right? Okay. Snipe: Functions.inc and usually some sort of PHTML. [laughs] Matt: God, PHTML, yes. Okay, all right. Snipe: I told you, I am an old, old lady. Matt: Honestly, we worked on a site that still used PHTML and things like four or five years ago. I was like, "I didn't even know that PHP parser is still allowed for this." Apparently, some of these things still stick around. Snipe: Whatever you set as your acceptable file formats, it'll parse. Matt: Yes, you can make it happen. Snipe: I can have a .dot site file extension if I wanted to. Matt: I like that idea now. Jeez. When was the transition? What were the steps between there and ending up where you are now? Are we still many steps behind, or did you get out on your own pretty quickly after that? Snipe: I was doing some contract work. Thanks to a friend that I'd met through IRC. I was doing some contract work for a company out in San Diego. They were an ad agency. This is the beginning of the days when marketing companies were trying to own digital, and they were trying to build up their digital departments. They moved me out there because they're like, "You're amazing, so come on out here and build up our team." I did. I built up their team. We had some really cool clients. We had San Diego Zoo, San Diego Padres, California Avocado Commission. At that time, I didn't like avocados. I was giving away free avocados that I did not like. Matt: [chuckles] Oh, no. That's so good. Snipe: I hate myself now for knowing how many avocados I could have had. [laughs] I got to build lots of custom web apps, all the database-y stuff. That was really fun. I left there, started my own web design company for lack of a better term, where I was basically using PHP, but also pretending like I knew how to design anything at all. Sorry, hang on. Incoming call. Building my own custom applications for people. None of it is really that fancy, but whatever. That was fun. Then I broke my foot. This is before the ACA, and so I had no insurance. Thousands of dollars and a spiral fracture later, I'm like, "Maybe I should get a real job." [laughter] Snipe: I started to work for the San Diego Blood Bank, which was a great gig. It's probably my favorite job. The pay wasn't that great, but my coworkers were great. Your hours were your hours. There was no overtime. If you had to work overtime, you got paid double time and a half, something like that. It was insane. Matt: Especially compared to the ad agency world, which is basically the exact opposite. Snipe: Yes. Yes. There's no amount of blood you can show to prove that you're loyal to that particular market. I ended up moving back to New York and ended up working for the Village Voice for a little while. Matt: Really? That's cool. Snipe: Yes, that was cool. Unfortunately, they had already been bought out by Newtimes, and so they were not the Village Voice that I grew up with, the one that warmed the liberal cockles of my heart. It was actually a crap place to work, to be honest. People were getting fired all the time. There was this one guy, he used to hang out in the archives room with an X-Acto blade and a piece of paper and would just cut at the piece of paper. He was actually scary. Everyone was afraid of him, because that's office shooter kind of crazy. Matt: Exactly, exactly. Snipe: I left there, finally, and worked for another ad agency. That's the one that I was working at when I finally started to work with Snipe-IT. Finally started to make Snipe-IT. For a while, while I was in California, the nice thing about running your own gig back then, because it was like a one-man shop, so I didn't have people that I had to worry about. I got a chance to work with tigers for about a year. It was just exhausting. That was around the time when I was writing my book, too. Working with tigers, commuting four hours a day, coming home stinking like raw chicken and tiger pee. Then working on my book, and then whatever I can possibly eke out for customers. It was pretty chaotic and definitely exhausting, but they were good times. Matt: I don't want to preach too far on this, but I feel like the more of our story that takes us around different aspects of life and different experiences, the more we bring to the thing we're in right now. That's one of the reasons I keep pushing on people having histories before they came to tech or diverse histories in tech. It's not to say that someone who just graduated from college and instantly got a job as a developer is therefore now incomplete, but I think that a lot of what makes a lot of people interesting is what they bring outside. That's true for anybody, right? What makes you different from the people around you makes you different, and makes you interesting, and it makes you have a perspective to be able to bring that the people around you don't. It sounds like you have quite a few of those, at least as you enter into the communities that I'm asking you from the perspective of whether PHP, or Laravel, or anything like that. I don't know where I'm going with that, but anyway. Snipe: [laughs] Matt: That's very interesting to hear. Snipe: I always say I sound really interesting on paper. I'm not really that interesting to talk to, but when you actually look at all the crap I've done, it's like, "Wow. That's kind of a lot." Matt: Right. That is a lot going on. Snipe: It's all weird. Weird stuff. Matt: If I remember right, the book that you wrote was a Wrox PHP book, right? Snipe: Yes, yes. You can still get it on Amazon, but it costs more to ship. Matt: Really? I got to-- Snipe: Actually, I'm not sure. It may just be eBay. The last time I checked, it was selling for $2.95 and costs like $80 to ship. [laughs] Matt: Professional PHP4 Web Development Solutions. Snipe: Yes. Matt: I don't see a Mohawk. I don't know which one's you. Snipe: No, no. Matt: [laughs] Snipe: Yes, I know. Gosh, it's a mystery of the ages, isn't it? [laughs] Matt: All right. Yes. $22.99. Wow. What was your experience like writing a book? Would you do it again? Snipe: Possibly, but I would need a bit more written assurances up front about how-- This is a co-authored book. Basically, we were not given communication information with each other. We were writing these chapters completely independently and it sucked. I offered to set up a bulletin board just so we could-- For some reason, they didn't want us talking to each other or something. I don't know, but I was like, "Because I don't know where this chapter is going to fall, I want to make sure that I'm not rehashing a thing that's already been discussed, or touching on something that needs more information." They never facilitated that. They actually pushed back against it. It was really frustrating. You're literally writing chapters in a vacuum that then have to be cohesive when you string them all together. I would need to know if it was going to be a co-authorship. I would need to know that this will truly be collaborative. Because the way it looks on the cover, it looks like we're all hanging out. No, I don't think I've ever spoken to those people ever. [laughs] Matt: Wow. Jeez. Snipe: It's really weird. It's really weird. I did not like that. I thought that was really just not a way to give the best experience to the reader. If I was going to collaborate, I would have to make sure that there was something like that. I've toyed with writing a couple of books over the last few years. It is also a bit of a time suck. Matt: Yes, it is. My perception, what I've told people in the past is that people often ask me, "Should I write a book with a traditional publisher like you did?" Because mine was with O'Reilly. "Or should I self-publish like a lot of the people in our community have?" My general perception has been, if you want to make money, self-publish. Snipe: Definitely. Matt: If you want reach that's outside of your current ability, then consider a traditional publisher. You've got quite a bit of reach and I wonder whether it's-- Snipe: This is like 2003, though. Matt: I don't mean for them, but I mean now. If you're going at it now. It seems like there'll probably be less of a reason for you to do a traditional publisher at this point. Snipe: I don't know, though. I still kind of O'Reilly. Matt: You still like it? Snipe: Being a published O'Reilly author, I still toy with that, honestly. Matt: I tell people I got a degree in secondary English education, basically. This O'Reilly book is my proof that I'm actually a real programmer. Snipe: [laughs] You know what? Honestly, that was really important to me back then. Snipe: Me too, really. Matt: I don't know where things would have gone, I don't know if I would have-- I probably would have stuck with it because I really, really liked it. I think that gave me a bit of confidence that I really needed. Proof, again, because I didn't graduate college. I nearly didn't graduate high school because of the programming class. [laughs] It was a way for me to say not just to the rest of the world, but to myself, like, "Hey, I actually know what I'm talking about." Matt: You can't underappreciate just how significant that is. I love that you said it. It's not just to everybody else, it's to you, too. Snipe: More than anyone else, to myself, honestly. I don't care what you guys think. [laughs] Matt: I spent several thousand hours writing a book with a major publisher so that I can overcome impostor syndrome. It's totally worth it. [laughter] Snipe: I still have it. That's a thing, I have it. Matt: I still have it, but maybe a little less. Snipe: At least if someone actually pushes the impostor syndrome too far, I'll be like, "I wrote a book. What have you done?" Matt: Exactly. Snipe: Meanwhile, I go off and rock in the corner as if, "Oh, my God. I don't deserve to be here. I don't deserve to be here." Matt: Exactly. It certainly doesn't make it go away, but maybe it's a tool in our arsenal to battle it. Snipe: That's a very good way to describe it. Matt: I like it. Snipe: I would need that to be a bit more of a tighter process. Matt: Well, if you decide to write with O'Reilly, I know some people. Just give me a call. Snipe: [laughs] I also know some people in O'Reilly. Matt: I was just going to say I'm pretty sure you don't need me for any of that kind of stuff. I just had to say it to try and seem like I actually matter, so this works. Snipe: Of course, you matter. Matt: I matter. Snipe: I got up early for you, Matt. I got up early for you. Matt: That's true. Snipe: You don't have any idea. Matt: That's true, this is quite early your time. I appreciate it. Snipe: [laughs] Matt: I'm trying to not talk forever. I'm trying to move us on even though I'm just my usual caveats, everyone take a drink. You eventually started Snipe-IT. I think we skipped a couple of things. We were talking about you becoming the CTO of the ad agency and being in a place where you needed to manage that kind of stuff. You started Snipe-IT. You now have a remote team. Could you tell me a little about the makeup of your team, and what it's like running a remote team, and the pros and cons you've experienced, and anything else that you would want to share about what that experience is like for you? Snipe: Well, I'm really lucky, first of all, because although our team is remote, we're all also local. We can actually see each other, we'll go out and have beers when we hit a major milestone. We'll go out and have some champagne and celebrate that we do get to see each other's faces. Also, we were friends first, so that helps. It's totally, totally different. If you're looking for advice on how to run a real remote team, that I can't help you with. I can't tell you how to manage your friends through Slack, though. [laughs] Matt: Basically, you and a bunch of friends live like an hour driving distance to each other or whatever and choose to work from home? Snipe: More like seven minutes. [laughs] Matt: Jeez. Snipe: Yes, yes. Matt: Okay, so this is really just like, "We just don't feel like going to an office," kind of vibe. Snipe: It's pants, it's pants. I'm not putting on pants. I've worked too hard in my career to have to put on pants anymore. There is a reason this isn't a video call, Matt. Seriously. [laughter] Matt: I wish that this was one of the podcasts-- Snipe: I think I just made Matt blush, by the way. Matt: I wish this was one of the podcasts where they name each episode, because that would have been the name right there for this episode. I might have to, just for this one, just give it a name just for that. Okay. I hear you. I get it. Snipe: The thing is I hadn't actually planned on hiring when I did. The reality is I should have, because I was really buckling under the helpdesk. That customer support load was a lot. It was causing me a great deal of anxiety. Looking back at it now, it was really untenable. Of course, I think that I'm 10 feet tall and bulletproof, so I'm like, "I got this. I got this." Meanwhile, it's four o'clock in the morning and I can't even see straight anymore. I ended up having to hire someone for a personal reason. She's actually worked out great. She's an absolute rock star on the helpdesk. She's never worked a helpdesk before, and she owns it. It's actually really, really great. Once I'd hired her, I think-- The onboarding takes a little bit. Especially, literally never worked a helpdesk before, so it's not just onboarding with my company, it's like onboarding the entire concept. As soon as she got her footing, she just completely handled it. It was really great. The next hire was a developer/sysadmin that I've known for a while. He is just fantastic. He's actually the harder one because he, I think, requires a little bit more structure, and a little bit more face time. I need to be better. I do. I need to be better about working with that because in my head, I'm still managing this the way that I want to be managed. I forget that that's actually not my job anymore. Matt: People are different. Snipe: Yes, people are different. Also, not everybody wants what I want. Frankly, it doesn't matter what I want. Ultimately, that's no longer a luxury that I have, caring more about how I want things to go for myself. That priority has shifted, and so I'm having to painfully learn [chuckles] that lesson. Not painfully. I love my entire team. They're absolutely amazing. I'm super, super grateful for them every day that goes by. Every time one of them takes vacation, we all hold on to our desks. We're like, "Okay, we can get through this, we can get through this." It's a learning curve, certainly. I've run my own small business, I've run dev teams. This is a different thing though, because the reason why I wanted to make this a company instead of just running this as a side project is because I've worked for tons of shitty companies. I want to build the company that I wish I'd worked for. Matt: I'm so sorry for doing this, but I was doing that thing where you're hearing somebody talking and waiting for your chance to talk. I literally was about to say Dan and I, when we started Tighten, the first thing we said was, "We want to build the company we want to work for." You just said and I'm like, "Exactly." That introduces the problem you're talking about, which is you just assume everybody wants the same things you want. It also means nobody else gets to force you to put people through things that you wouldn't want to be put through. It's an incredible freedom if you can make it profitable. Snipe: Yes. Absolutely. Getting to institute stuff that I think is really worker-friendly. We all make our own hours. We have office hours so that when Victoria's handling the helpdesk, she's got access to the text that she needs during a certain amount of time. In general, she's got a kid. We have to have that flexibility, so that she-- Honestly, she just lets us know that she's going to pick up her kid. It's like, "Okay, cool. See you back in half an hour or whatever." Vacation, she had not had a real vacation in probably 10 or 15 years. Last year, we were like, "You are taking vacation." She kept checking into Slack. I'm like, "Girl, I will actually revoke your credentials." Matt: [laughs] Exactly. Snipe: Do not play with me. Matt: I love it. Snipe: This year, I've decided that there's two weeks basically mandatory vacation, and we're going to put $3,000 towards each person's vacation funds- Matt: That's cool. Snipe: -so that they can actually go and do something awesome, and relaxing, and not stress about money while they're there, and just get to go and actually enjoy things, and come back refreshed and ready to work. It's pretty cool being able to come up with stuff like this and really like, "What would I have needed?" Because when I was working at the ad agencies especially, I would accrue my PTO. Honestly, that's why Snipe-IT existed. It was because I had two and a half weeks, three weeks of PTO that was not going to roll over. They made me take vacation in November. They wouldn't let me do it in December. They made me do it in November, and I was like, "Yes, three weeks of just relaxing, playing video games." That didn't work. I accidentally the product. [laughs] Now, I accidentally the business. Matt: That's awesome. One of the things I often talk about as an entrepreneur, as a business owner is something that I think people are scared of talking about, which is power. Because being a business owner means you get to hire, you get to figure out how money is spent, you get to figure out what pressures are and are not put in the people you work with. I call that power, but I think power doesn't have to be a scary word because, really, what matters is what you do with the power. When we hear power as a negative thing, it is usually because the people on power are benefiting themselves. I think that something is really beautiful, and wonderful, and we need more of in the world is when we can see power as a positive thing, because people get power and then use it for the benefit of other people. I just want to applaud and affirm what you're doing, because you just described that. It's like, "I got power, and the first thing I did was work to make other people's lives better understanding what the situation that they were in was." I love hearing that. I'm really glad that we got to talk about this today. Snipe: Well, thank you. I'm looking forward to coming up with more stuff like that. Matt: I love it. Snipe: It's super important to me. Our customers are incredibly important to us, obviously, but my staff is as important. You can't have one without the other either direction. Matt: In the end, they're just both people who you work with. The hope is that you're able to make both groups of people really have lives that are better because they had a chance to interact with you. Snipe: Yes, absolutely. Matt: Okay. We are almost out of time. I asked people at Tighten if they had any questions for you. They gave me a million, and I haven't gotten any of them. They're all going to be mad at me, so I'm trying to look at the one that I could pull up that won't turn into a 30-minute long conversation. Snipe: I'm Italian. There is literally nothing you can talk to me about that won't turn into a 30-minute conversation. [laughs] Matt: All right. I'll literally go with the question that has the least words in it and see if that gets us anywhere. Coffee or tea? Snipe: Red Bull. Matt: There you go. See how short that was? All right. Snipe: This podcast is sponsored by Red Bull. [laughter] Matt: It's so funny that it's been the thing at Tighten for the longest time, where those of us who started the company and the first hires were primarily coffee people. There's one tea holdout, but over time, the tea contingent has grown. Just within the last nine months, we hired two people who are Red Bull addicts. All of a sudden, we're shopping for the company on-site and they're like, "Orange Red Bull, no sugar, energy, blah, blah, blah." I'm like, I have a course in Red Bull flavors. Anyway, I still think it's pretty gross, but I did try some of them. Snipe: It's disgusting. No, it is utterly vile. It is really, really gross. [laughter] Matt: I don't get it. Please pitch me on why I would drink red Bull instead of coffee then. Snipe: No. If you don't drink Red Bull, then there will be more for me. First of all, I'm not going to pitch that. Matt: World's dwindling storage of Red Bull. Snipe: Obviously, we buy our stores out of local Red Bull, it's ridiculous. We have a main store, and then we have a failover store. Listen, you don't drink it because it tastes good. It tastes like dog ass, but it wakes you up. It keeps you awake. It feels the same role that coffee does, and frankly, I don't think that coffee tastes that good. Matt: Okay. Fair enough. Snipe: I can ask the same question to you. Matt: Right. For you, it's a combination. You don't like the flavor of either, but one of them you can buy in bulk and throw in the fridge? Snipe: Yes, yes. Matt: Got it. I get that. I love the flavor of coffee, but I'm like a geek. I have all the equipment, and all that kind of stuff. Snipe: Of course, you do. [laughter] Matt: Am I predictable? I am predictable. Okay. Snipe: I will neither confirm nor deny. My lawyer has advised me. [laughs] Matt: Not to make a statement on this particular-- I have one more and I'm praying that I can make it short, but I probably won't. You are a member of the Laravel community. You use Laravel. You share things every once in a while, but for someone who is such a big name, who's a member of the Laravel community, much of your popularity is not within the Laravel community. You're not popular because you're speaking at Laracon, you're not creating Laravel packages that all the people are consuming. It's this interesting thing where you're a very well-known person who uses Laravel and is a member of the Laravel community but is not necessarily gaining all that fame within Laravel space. It's an interesting overlap. As someone who does have exposure to lots of the tech communities, you're in the InfoSec world, you've been in PHP for a while, but you're also solidly Laravel. Do you have any perspectives on either, maybe the differences between InfoSec and PHP, differences between InfoSec and Laravel, and/or is there anything that you would say to the Laravel community, or things you'd either applaud or hope to see grow? Is there anything you just want to say about the way Laravel compares, or connects, or overlaps, or whatever with the rest of the world that you're in? Snipe It's always an ongoing joke in the InfoSec community. PHP developers are pretty much the easiest punching bag in the InfoSec community. Matt: And everywhere else. Snipe: In fact, I think just yesterday, I submitted an eye-rolling gift in relation to someone at InfoSec, bagging on PHP developers. I get it. When the language first came out, it was really easy to learn. You didn't need to have any knowledge of programming, or discipline, or best practices. There were no best practices for quite some time in PHP. I totally get that. The thing is that that's not really the world that we live in anymore. It's actually hard to write a PHP application without using a framework these days. Because the frameworks are so much better and it's so much faster, that for me, I'm pretty sure I could still write a PHP application without a framework, but why the hell would? If I ever have to write another gddmn login auth routine, I'll kill myself. I will actually kill myself. Comparing InfoSec to PHP or Laravel is like comparing apples to orangutans. They're entirely different animals and there is a little bit of overlap, but typically not. In general, PHP has a bad reputation in InfoSec. In fact, I will tell you a very brief story about how I got into InfoSec. This one's always a fun one. I used to run a nonprofit organization when I moved to California the first time. It was basically like Megan's Law for animal abusers. Criminal animal abuse. I would pull in data, break it down statistically based on a couple of different pointers like domestic violence connection, blah blah blah blah blah, and basically run statistics on that stuff. This was going back a very, very long time when nobody really knew or gave a crap at all about AppSec. At one point, my website got hacked. The organization's website got hacked. I am literally on my way to speak at a conference in Florida, an animal welfare conference. I'm checking in. I'm like, "Hi, I'm Alison Gionatto. I'm a speaker." She goes, "You're petabuse.com. That's great. I'm so sorry to hear about what happened." I'm like, "I've been on a plane for a couple of hours." I'm like, "Wait, what?" [chuckles] I run to my hotel room, and somebody has defaced the website with an animated GIF, and a song playing in the background which was basically a clip from Meetspin, and they linked to Meatspin. If any of your listeners don't know what Meatspin is- Matt: I don't. Snipe: -please do not Google that. You can google it, but have safe search on. Matt: Is it like Goatse kind of stuff? Snipe: Yes. "You spin me right round, baby, right round" playing in the background on autoloop. To this day, when I hear that song, I shiver a little bit. Matt: Trigger, yes. Snipe: Exactly. I ended up actually talking to this guy who thought that we were a much bigger organization than we were. He was trying to extort money, of course. I was like, "Dude, you have you have no idea. We get like $800 in donations every month. You are barking up the wrong tree." He's like, "I thought you were bigger. I'm sorry, but it is what it is." I toyed with him long enough to figure out what he had done. The thing is, this is on a Cobalt RaQ server. First of all, we're going back. Second of all, those are not exactly going for their security, but it was what I could afford. Honestly, it's what I could afford. I figured it out, I locked him out. I did leave him one final kind of F you text. [laughter] Snipe: Just so that he knew. That was how I got into this in the first place was basically a horrific, horrific internet meme and the defacement of my organization's website. Again, this is 2004, 2005. Application security became really important to me, and that's why I'm here. [chuckles] That's why I go to DEF CON. That's why I speak about application security and security in general. To get back to your original question, there isn't really an overlap. There is this disdainful relationship, for the most part, coming from both directions because InfoSec people don't typically treat programmers in general very well, but especially not PHP developers. PHP developers are tired of getting shit on, and so they don't necessarily treat-- It becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling-- Matt: Impostor, yes. Exactly. Snipe: Honestly, it's all just a bunch of dumbass egos and it's stupid. If we would just talk to each other a little bit more, we'd probably be a little better off. Matt: Come on, somebody. You'll be surprised to hear that I could talk about InfoSec and PHP for an hour, but we're out of time. I don't know if I'm going to have you back sometime or I don't know what, but this's been amazing. I really appreciate you spending some time with me. Before we cut off for the day and I cry because of all the topics I'm not going to cover, is there anything you wanted to talk about? Anything you want to plug, anything you want to cover, anything you want to say to the people that we haven't got to cover today? Snipe: Nothing that really comes to mind. I am still really passionate about AppSec. If you're using a framework and you're not utilizing all of the security stuff that's built in already, specifically Laravel is really good with that. I've had write some Middleware to add some additional CSP headers and things like that. If you're already paying the price, the overhead of using a framework, then freaking use it. Actually use all of the bits that are good, not just the bits that you don't feel like writing. Laravel makes it really hard to avoid the CSRF tokens. You'll actually have to go out of your way to disable those. I like that about Laravel. I like that it's opinionated. I like that it doesn't want you to screw this up. That said, any developer left to their own devices sufficiently motivated will still screw it up. Matt: Will screw something up, yes. Snipe: Yes, Exactly. Frameworks like Laravel, I think once that are headed in the right direction, so your default login already uses bcrypt to hash the password. You would, again, have to go out of your way to write something that would store something in cleartext or MD5. I think it's a step in the right direction. Use your frameworks, learn what their built-in security functionality is, and use them. Matt: Use it. [laughs] Snipe: One of the packages I'm actually writing for Laravel right now is an XSS package which will basically walk through your schema, and will try and inject rows of XSS stuff in there so that when you reload the app and if you got to any kind of functional testing or acceptance testing setup, you'll be able to see very quickly what you've forgotten to escape. Matt: I love it. Snipe: For a normal Laravel app, that's actually hard to do because the double braces will escape everything. For example, if you're using data from an API, maybe you're not cleaning it as well or whatever. That's one of the packages that I actually am working on. Matt: That's great. Also, if you're using JavaScript, it's really common for people to not escape it, and so that all of a sudden, they forget to clean it. Snipe: Exactly. I wanted one quick way to basically just check and see how boned I was. That'll be fun. Matt: Yes. Does it have a name yet that we can watch for or would you just link it once you have it? Snipe: Well, the only name-- You know how the mocking data packages called Faker? You can imagine what I'm considering calling this that I probably won't call it? [laughs] Matt: Probably won't, but now we can all remember it that way? Yes. Snipe: No promises. Absolutely no promises is all I'm saying. [laughs] Matt: Assuming it's safe for work, I will link the name in the show notes later. If not, you could just go-- [crosstalk] [laughter] Snipe: Again, no promises. Matt: I like it. Okay. You all have taken enough drinks, so I won't say my usual ending for you to drink too. Snipe, Alison, thank you so much. Thank you for the ways you have spoken up for a lot of things that really matter both in this call and our community as a whole. Thank you for hopefully helping me but also our entire community get better going forward, but also the things you brought to us in the past in terms of application security. I don't know why I didn't say this earlier, but Mr. Rogers is maybe one of my top heroes of all time. That was what was going through my mind when you were talking about running your company. Thank you for being that force both for running companies that way and taking care of people, and then, of course, by proxy for just the people who you're working with. The more people that are out there doing that, I think the better it is for all of us. This has been ridiculously fun. If anyone wants to follow you on Twitter, what's your Twitter handle and what are other things they should check out? That URL for Snipe-IT? I will put all of these in the show notes, but I just wanted you to get a chance to say them all at the end. Snipe: My Twitter handle is @snipeyhead, because @snipe was taken. I'm still pissed at that guy. [laughter] Snipe: The URL for Snipe-IT is snipeitapp.com. Not very creative. All of our issues are on GitHub. Your pool of requests are welcome. [laughter] Snipe: As always. Matt: Nice. Snipe: It is free. If it helps you solve some of your problems at your organization, we would love for you to try it out. If you'd like to give us money, that's awesome too. Ultimately, the more people who are using it, the better. Matt: Nice. Okay. Well, thank you so much for your time. Everyone, check out the show notes as always. We'll see you again in a couple of weeks with a special episode. I'll tell you more what it is when that one happens. See you. Snipe: [chuckles] Thank you so much, Matt.

I'm excited to release this interview with Jason Calacanis during the launch of his new book, Angel: How to Invest in Technology Startups-Timeless Advice from an Angel Investor Who Turned $100,000 into $100,000,000. I've been a super fan of Jason since coming across his show This week in Startups when he produced it on set with black curtain backdrops and large wooden dining room tables. A lot of people give GaryVee credit for the foresight of thinking like a media company — but Jason got to it first. Behind the bravado is a kid from Brooklyn that worked his tail off to get to where he's at, challenged with lessons of success & failure weaved into the fabric of his story. Today, Jason leads Inside.com with the same burning passion to take on the big platforms as he did with his first startup, Silicon Alley Reporter.  Sit back and enjoy this episode with Jason, as he walks us through the mind of an angel investor and how to start thinking scale in your small software business. Listen the episode Matt Report - A WordPress podcast for digital business owners How to find an angel investor for small startups w/ Jason Calacanis Play Episode Pause Episode Mute/Unmute Episode Rewind 10 Seconds 1x Fast Forward 30 seconds 00:00 / 00:44:23 Subscribe Share RSS Feed Share Link Embed Download file | Play in new window | Duration: 00:44:23 Interview transcript Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Matt Report season five. We're winding down season five. In fact, folks who were listening, now you should have heard the last episode of season five. But I get a bonus episode with one of my favorite people on the internet, Jason Calacanis. Jason, welcome to the program. Jason C.: Hey, thanks for having me. Matt: Creator of Weblogs, Inc sold to AOL. Early investors in Uber, Thumbtack, created a company called Mahalo and fought Google at every turn and corner. Created another company that I originally found you through is This Week In, the sort of all the YouTube stuff and live video stuff you were doing. Now you're running Inside.com, news and entertainment delivered via email. I am a huge fan of that as well. You run LAUNCH Incubator and events, and now you've written the book, the book of angels as it were. It's angels- Jason C.: Yes, of angels. I like that. Matt: Angel: How to Invest in Technology Startups—Timeless Advice from an Angel Investor Who Turned 100 grand into 100 million buckaroos. Jason, welcome to the program again. Did I miss anything? Jason C.: It's- Matt: I probably did. Jason C.: Probably. Well yeah, it's one of the great things about history is like people only remember the victories if you have them. Then they forget all the losses. But you brought up Mahalo, so that was great, my PTSD started triggering. Mahalo, we basically pivoted into Inside.com, so the story ended up well. But we're working like dogs, get a return for those Mahalo investors. I never give up. It's one of my either charming or stupid qualities depending on the situation that I never give up. Matt: Obviously, want to talk about the book. For me, I'm not a super heavy book reader. I got it, I got an early copy. I did a little Jason Calacanis of my own, I just contacted your publishers. I sort of worked my way in through the backdoor and I said, “Hey, I'd love to talk to this guy.” Jason C.: Hustle. Matt: I definitely want to talk about the book, but real quick. This Week In network, I mean god, you had This Week In Web Design, of course This Week In Startups. You had I think This Week In Movies as well. Do you think that you were just so early, like the technology wasn't there? Jason C.: Yeah, for sure. What we did was we tried to do a network of shows seven years ago. It was a little experiment. Me and a couple of my friends put 100k in each. We got to the point where it was making some money and there were two breakout shows, Kevin Pollak's Chat Show and This Week In Startups. All the other shows, we were trying to groom talent. We had people like Mark Suster doing This Week In Venture Capital. Then we had other people doing This Week In Movies. We did a Mad Men recap show long before things like Talking Dead. We kinda pioneered that space of doing a show right after. We had a lot of, I would say, early signs of success. Maybe we should've stuck with it. But I came to this great realization, which was the more important, the more powerful, the more networks, the more credible the hosts, like Kevin Pollak, Mark Suster, myself, the greater the chance of success. If it was an emerging host, it probably had very little chance of success. We were able to get an unlimited supply of emerging talent to host a podcast. But none of them were breaking out. It probably would've taken us three or four years of trying to get them to break out. We had somebody named Dave Pensado doing Pensado's Place and he was awesome too. But all those people had in common that they didn't really need us because it's so easy to create a podcast that if you're a rich powerful person, or not even rich. If you just have 500 to let's say $2,000 to produce an episode, you can just do it yourself and not have a boss, not be part of a network. We kept having people who would just call in rich, like Mark Suster's like, “Yeah, I can't do it for the next year. I gotta raise a fund. I got things to do.” I just had this realization that all the great podcasters would be independent and I was right. If you look, Leo Laporte stayed independent, Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, Adam Carolla. All these people have become independent, let's call it $1 million to $10 million enterprises. I think probably Leo and Joe Rogan are above 5 million. They have this like, call it $2 to $5 million space like This Week In Startups, and maybe Sam Harris, and maybe Adam Carolla. In other words, it's enough money for those people to love doing it and not to need to have anybody as their boss. So all those people who are trying to making podcasting networks have had a hard go of it. Even Leo, who's got a lot of great shows, but he's had a hard time keeping talent on the network because they go have a life event. They get married. They go have kids and want to do something else. It's just hard to be a manager of talent like that. I mean Sirius XM is doing a good job of it, but they have this like huge bankroll. So I think podcasting is this very unique space because you don't need somebody. If you go down that list, all these like podcasting companies, they don't really … Malcolm Gladwell doesn't need the podcasting company in other words. He can just do it himself. If he does it with a podcasting company, it's probably because they're overpaying him. Matt: These shows, these either networks or these individual shows that somebody's running, they become massive platforms and catalysts to sell all their either goods and services or maybe even in your world, you get the advertising, you do a million bucks a year. You pay your staff, whatever. But it's also it connects you with so many people at the same time. It makes you become the [crosstalk 00:05:39]- Jason C.: My view on podcasting when I heard about it from Dave Winer and the pod father, Adam Curry when they were teaching me about it. I was like okay, I'm just gonna record two conversations from lunches I had in a week, and then all of a sudden it turned into we're about to hit 800 episodes for This Week in Startups. It just turned out to be a networking thing for me. Then all of a sudden, it started making money and getting 150,000 downloads in episodes. So it's a pretty big audience now and it's a great way for me to find founders to invest in. Matt: If people are listening to that and they're like, “All right, that's it. I'm gonna go start my podcast.” Folks, it's still a slog. It's still some hard work. It doesn't come that easy. I know. I'm only at maybe 300 episodes and man, some days it can be super draining to keep this stuff going. Let's just talk about the book. The structure of this book, for a dullard like myself who doesn't like to read, it is … I mean you say in sort of the winding chapters that this is the playbook. This is your decade plus of experiences sort of all put into this one book. I love the framework was I mean was that your idea? Or when you get to a publisher, they say, “Look, that's a complicated topic. We need to sort of piecemeal this for people reading it.” It's not all this hoopla and sort of Zen like stuff. This is the real deal. Jason C.: Yeah. The pitch was interesting. I've had a very famous book agent for a decade. His name is John Brockman. He does something called Edge.org and he's got Daniel Dennett, Jared Diamond, Sam Harris, had Marvin Minsky, just all the greatest authors that are out there, and Brian Greene, and then me. I would always get these like Blogging for Dummies, Podcasting for Dummies. Search engines, SEO for Dummies. They just wanted me to be the dummy author and it was always like chintzy. It was a couple of stories about my angel investing. People started to realize, “Oh, he's hit a unicorn. Oh, he hit a second unicorn. Oh, he hit three unicorns.” When that started to get released, the value of the portfolio started to get released and Wall Street Journal did a story on it, people were pinging my agent saying, “Hey, is he gonna write a book?” I just thought to myself everybody I meet, like the stupider or more inexperienced they are, the greater the chance they've written a book. So like people who have no life experience and nothing to share, they write books in order to become subject matter efforts. I just thought isn't that backwards? Like, shouldn't the books go to the subject matter experts? I just thought what am I a subject matter expert on? Like, I was a good entrepreneur. I'm not like an elite great entrepreneur, like folks I've invested in who have done much better than me. I was a good entrepreneur. But angel investing is something I have a lot of credibility on since I've done 150 investments now and now six of them have become unicorns. Another company today announced that they raised over a billion dollars making medal 3D printers called Desktop Metal, which I was an investor on the first round to fund it. Matt: Nice. Jason C.: I was like this is something I could do. Then I looked at it and I said how do you frame that? I could make something for angels, but really the book is about how wealth is created in the 21st century as opposed to how wealth was created in the 20th century. That's really what I'm going for and if you read the book, you realize it's not just for angel investors. It's for anybody who wants to know how many is gonna be made in the next century. Money and wealth is not created by real estate and being rich dad, poor dad, secret millionaire on the block, art of the deal. You're not gonna become rich through some deal making or real estate in all likelihood. That dream is over. That was a really good model when the white collar boom was happening. You could get a white collar job, marry somebody with a white collar job, bring peanut butter and jelly to lunch, and then just don't go out to dinner, take staycations. Matt: Right. Save, save, save. Jason C.: Save, save, save. Pay down your house. But at that time, when our parents bought their houses, my parents bought their brownstone in Brooklyn for I think $45,000. My mom was making as a nurse 40,000 and my dad was probably making 30,000 as a bartender. Their house was one less than one times their yearly income. Now if you live in New York, a brownstone's a million dollars, and most people are making, let's say they were, forget about blue collar, just white collar people. They're probably making 100 to 150k each, so let's just call it best case scenario, 300,000 a year. A brownstone in Brooklyn's a million dollars or $2 million depending on where in Brooklyn, so it's five times, seven times the household income. Forget about Manhattan or other places. In San Francisco, it's an even further joke. So the idea that you would have these two white collar people suffer and then hit this amazing real estate thing, then buy a second home, or leverage it into a second home, is kinda laughable. Also, people are graduating with what? At the same time, people's debt is growing, so there's educational debt. People coming out of school with 50, 150k each, so they have household debt of 150,000. Then what happens? Boom, you had  the $150,000 in debt, you're not paying for your mortgage until you're 35. In this book, I explain hey, if you can get on cap tables of high growth companies, specifically in Silicon Valley, because the hit rate there is so much better and the numbers are just, add a zero or two from any other market in terms of the scale of those companies, you could really hit a home run and move from poor to rich, from middle class to rich, from rich to ultra rich. That's really what I was trying to do there. My hope is that if 100,000 people buy the book, and 5 or 10% of them start angel investing, maybe 1,000 of them have this incredible, or 100 of them have this incredible result. If the other ones just are plus or minus 50% of their money, that's a fine outcome too. Angel investing is something that's becoming something that a lot more people can do. Matt: Yeah and I want to talk about that, but I also looked at this book of course for the folks who are listening, the WordPress product companies, hosting companies, people who are doing upwards of maybe a million bucks a year selling WordPress plugins. This is a great book to reverse engineer these frameworks, right? Jason C.: Of course. Matt: How does Jason go to look for founders? Now these founders out there I mean pick up the book just because now you can reverse engineer that and it structures so damn well that you just zero in right on the part where Jason's negotiating or setting up the interviews. I mean it's an amazing tool. Jason C.: Exactly correct. That is a very astute point. There's actually a cheaper in there for founders where I just say like, “If you're a founder and you bought this book to game the system, congratulations. You're smart. You smart mother effers, like I salute you. Then here's what you need to know about what angels are going through and how they make their decisions because they are human beings too who are trying to figure this out.” You're not trying to game them. What you want is to really be in sync. For the people making a million dollars a year, like basically either become angel investors or they could actually read the book and understand hey, this is what venture capitalists and angel investors are looking to do. How do you accelerate a million dollar, that wedge strategy of doing templates, and being a single person who makes a million dollars a year, and one person with a couple freelances makes a million? How do you add a zero to that revenue or two zeros? I think if you read the book, you'll have an idea of how things like that can scale. Matt: A little bit on that point, so a lot of folks who do do this, who are doing the WordPress thing, and they're selling some digital products, a lot of them are developers. They started coding in the basement. They upgraded to coding in the garage. Now they're in a coworking space, coding at the coworking space. They're not sort of the marketing type or the entrepreneurial type in the sense of I want to scale this thing. But what can be said about at least talking to maybe an angel investor? I mean are there some benefits to taking … a lot of these folks are just sort of gun-shy for taking money. Are there some benefits to it that you could sort of peg off for people who might be afraid? Jason C.: Yeah. If you have a cash producing business, let's say it's profitable in throwing off a $250,000 a year salary for you. That's pretty amazing. Consider yourself lucky. You can work from home. You control your schedule. You start bringing investors in, they are gonna be looking, an angel investor is gonna be looking typically for a 5 to 10x return. Not this angel investor. I'm looking for people who can do a 100 for 500. But really, 50 to 100 is probably what professional angels are hoping that some of their companies do. A regular angel might be looking for 5 or 10 times their money in seven years. Venture capitalists are trying to invest millions of dollars and maybe do 10x as well with an outside chance of 100 or 200x. So you know that about them and you are kinda lighting a fuse or hitting a starter pistol when you do take that money. So it's a very astute observation. Your life is gonna change. You're gonna have to send updates to them. They're gonna have questions. They're gonna give you money, but they're also, hopefully if they're connected, gonna give you credibility, and resources, and help you strategize about how to add that zero to your revenue. So that everybody involved, all stakeholders, your customers, your partners, your employees, yourself as the founder and the investors, win. That's what the cap table is all about, the capitalization table. So you have to create a cap table, sell them some shares, give your employees some shares and say, “Hey, we're all gonna go on this journey. The company has a million in revenue. We value out of 5 million. There's 5 million shares in the company. They're all worth a dollar. The investor just put in a half million dollars. They bought 10% of the company. They gave us 500,000. Let's deploy that $500,000 intelligently. We'll hire five sales people and give them $50,000 plus commission and hire two more developers. Now we got seven people cranking.” What the people who are your grinders and your audience, the people who know how to grind out and make a real business that people find value from, they typically have the great product sense and the great customer sense. But they don't have the scale sense, right? Or they don't have it yet. Matt: Right. Jason C.: What they have to do is study what they've learned, study their customers and say, “Hey, maybe the top 5% of our customers or top 10% have a need that we've learned about, that we can double or triple down.” If they looked at it and said, “You know what? We have these three customers out of 1,000 who are financial companies, and they keep asking for this set of features. Let's tell them that we're building that product and let's get them to pay $25,000 a month for that product.” That's what kinda pulling the string as an entrepreneur and learning about a market, that's what I respect about those grinders, the people who get to a million dollars in revenue. I just did my first cannabis investment. I wasn't expecting to do one until maybe California was legal and maybe two years from now when things were a little more sorted. But I found a company that's making a million dollars from advertising, and doing cannabis tourism, and doing cannabis magazines, and cannabis festivals. I was like okay, that's a good starting point. If they know how to make a million dollars from just traditional advertising, and events, and stuff like that, maybe they'll figure out some bigger business, and they have a bigger business in mind. So I love those scrappy entrepreneurs. Matt: Yeah. I see that come up a lot. Like, I see a lot of people who are scrappy, doing a million bucks a year, but then they see these ideas get funded for multi millions of dollars and they haven't made a nickel yet. Meanwhile, these people are making hand over fist, hundreds of thousand dollars in cash every single month. I mean is that attractive when a company's making money or does that signal like this is only as big as you're gonna get? Jason C.: Yeah. Matt: Like, we should maybe not invest in that. Jason C.: An amazing question. For some people, it is a signal, a negative signal. Like, these people think small. But for people who are in the know, like savvy people, they're gonna look at it and go, “That person built what we call a dude business, or a dudette business, which is dude makes a million dollars a year. Dude makes half a million dollars a year.” Those people are so smart. I have a friend, Phil Kaplan, who created a company called DistroKid, and previous he did Effed Company and a couple of other startups. He's really brilliant and he makes these companies like just himself and a bunch of freelancers, and they get to millions of dollars in revenue. If you can be lean like that, you're gonna learn stuff, and then there's a time to figure out, “Okay, I built MailChimp, or SurveyMonkey, or examples of companies built off revenue that all of a sudden started to scale.” In SurveyMonkey's case, they took investment and then I believe in MailChimp's case, they had 400 million in revenue, and they had never taken anybody's money. So both things can work. If you want to work with a group of elite investors, when you come with that million dollars, and explain your vision, and say, “Listen, we made a million dollars. It was quite nice. We can grow this business 20% a year for the next 10 years and we'll make $10 million.” That's awesome. “We want to build a billion dollar company. Here's the billion dollar opportunity and here's why we need $1.5 million for 15% of the company. We're gonna build it from here to hit these goals.” That seems pretty credible to me. If it hasn't grown for five years and it's just slowly growing, and you say, “We're gonna make this accelerate,” you have to have a good story. So is it, “Why hasn't it grown faster?” It might be that you just never had outbound sales. You add an outbound sales team and everything changes. So they would want you to test that theory and probably give you 500k to test it. Matt: Got it. Jason C.: But most people don't take enough risks. Out of that group of people who are making that million dollars a year, half million dollars a year, what they don't realize is they're so concerned to protect the nest egg, and their upper middle class lifestyle, or let's say affluent life style. Maybe not rich, they could stop working, but they kinda have a nice place in life. They don't want to risk it, which I understand. But what you have to realize is if you don't risk it now, there's no chance of outside success. If you go for an outside success and it fails, and you've built a million dollar business before, you're gonna be able to build another million dollar one. It's kinda like there's this kid who climbs Yosemite and other mountains without a rope, Alex Honnold, or whatever his name is. It's just like you watch these videos and you're like, “My god, please don't do that.” I don't recommend people climb mountains without ropes, but if you're climbing the startup mountain and you fall, it gives you more credibility, and you just get to start over at the bottom of the mountain again. You don't die. People have this idea that's if you fail in your startup, you're dead. No, you're more credible, you've learned something, and you get to play. You put another quarter in the machine, you get to play the video game again. Matt: Yeah, absolutely. I mean that's obviously well said. I want to circle- Jason C.: Take more risk is my advice. Matt: Yeah and on that note, you mentioned something earlier about sort of they understand the scrappiness of creating the product, understanding the customer, and the love of building a business, right? That's why they did it. But they don't understand the scale factor. Is that what you would argue a good angel would come in and say, no pun intended I guess, but come in and say, “Hey look, we're gonna bless you with a … maybe point you in the right direction for an advisor, or building an advisory council,” or something like that? Does a good angel do that for their entrepreneurs or do you try to stay hands off and not really push them in a particular direction? Jason C.: It depends on what the founder wants. If the founder wants me involved, I get involved. If the founder doesn't need my help, I get less involved. I like to get a monthly update from the founder because it creates discipline with them to write the update. It takes them an hour to write the update, share the key metrics of the business, talk about the challenges, talk about the wins, talk about the losses, and how we might be able to help. If you have that discipline where you have your metrics dialed in and you write that update, and you send it to 10 investors, and say your management team, you can have like a really open dialogue. The companies that do that go a lot further because they maybe create a plan. If you have a plan to be successful and you execute the plan, you will be more successful. You might not succeed, but you will definitely be more successful. People who decide, “I'm gonna create a two year plan to grow my business from 1 million in year one to 3 million. In a year or two, I'm gonna go from 3 million to 9.” If they don't succeed at the plan and they hit 2 in 6, they will probably be further along than people without a plan. I'm a big fan of planning, and having people involved, and talking about the strategy, and paying attention to the data and the metrics. The great companies do that. Matt: I think you mentioned on a recent episode of your show that the folks who are shy or shy-ish of saying, “No, I'm gonna not give you that weekly or monthly update,” as sort of an indication to you that they're not taking their job seriously, or they might not be taking your relationship with handing them some cash seriously in that regard. Jason C.: Yeah, for sure. We definitely like to find people who are just serious about the business and want to do the business right. I think if you're gonna take angels, you need to look at, especially if you're in that zone of 500,000 to a million, a simple email to 10 different angels saying, “I have a business called blank. We make money by doing blank for blank. Here's a revenue chart, quarterly, monthly, week, whatever, and here's a link to our product demo.” Like, literally that's what? Less than five sentences. You all of a sudden get this massive … we click on the links, and we go check it out, and then we're gonna take the meeting. Most people write their life story and what they plan on doing, the talkers, the tourists. What I love about your audience is they're not talkers and tourists. They're people who have actually built real businesses and they just maybe haven't built the business that is designed to be a billion dollar business. But if you can build a million dollar business, truth be told, you can build a $10 million business. Now, if you have built the million dollar business, I don't know that means you can build a $100 million one. But if you build a million, you can definitely get to 10. If you can get to 10, you've got a business that's gonna be worth 5 to 20 times that number and you can build a team around you of investors who can tell you what people you need on your team to hit that next milestone. That's the trick. You're bringing these people in, they're invested, and now you have five people working toward your success who have skills that you don't have. Again, why fear the downside risk when there is none? It's not life or death and people have a life or death approach where they just don't take enough risk. I believe, in my heart, people don't take enough risk. Matt: It's funny you say that because I'm a mentor in an accelerator program out here on the East Coast. A lot of these folks coming in, and it's sort of like a sustainable accelerator, so businesses that are gonna help the local community, drive jobs, that kind of thing. Nothing like in the tech sector, although some come through with the tech sector. So many people starting companies now, they feel like it's life or death, right? Some of them are trying to do it because they're jaded from the Shark Tank shows that are out there. They think like, “All I have to do is get to this, and I'm gonna win a million bucks,” right? They think of it like a game show I guess and it's sort of not the case. But also, look, you can get up the next day. You can start another business, get another job, or something like that, and take another swing at it I guess. Jason C.: It's correct. Shark Tank's an amazing show for inspiring people to get involved. It has put in people's mind that that money in some cases is like the reward, that's the prize, when in fact that's the starter pistol as we talked about earlier. That just means okay, now you've deployed it, and those people want you to return. It's an investment, which means they want a return on capital. So yeah, I think it's been great that so many people are inspired to start companies, but finishing is important. Matt: As an investor, this is the inside baseball question for the direct folks in the audience, we're all using WordPress. It's all opensource. Does that scare you as an investor? Do you not touch opensource? Do you know investors that do and don't that might be some guidance for folks listening? Jason C.: It is amazing. Everybody wants to do opensource based startups. They [inaudible 00:25:55] WordPress.org and I've got the name of the other CMS, but the Boston company that now- Matt: Oh, Acquia, Drupal. Jason C.: Yeah, Drupal. Yeah, so these companies are real and they make a ton of money. I think Android has put to bed anybody's fear that like you can't do an open source thing and also control it, right? Google's done a pretty good job of having their cake and eating it too, haven't they? They have like Android, and they figured out, and there's a- Matt: Tesla's doing opensource I think even with their chargers coming up, right? They want to opensource their charging station so other manufacturers can- Jason C.: Build them. Matt: Build them. Jason C.: Yeah, I think they … What everybody realizes is at a certain point, you pick where you want to make your money and make your company defensible. So for Google, everything is opensource, except for their algorithm and their search engine. You can't figure out, that's a black box, right? But they'll opensource everything else to kill their competitors. Then Facebook is like, “We'll make our hardware platform opensource and we'll have everybody working on grinding the hardware quest down. But we're sure we're not gonna make our ad network, or a social graph, that's not gonna be available. It would be lightly available in the API. If you get any kind of traction on the API that gets people to leave Facebook, we're gonna turn you off.” The API for Facebook says, “The API is not designed to make people leave Facebook.” So if you use the API thinking you're gonna bring people to your platform, the second you get traction, they just say, “You're breaking the terms of service.” Matt: Yep. So let's pivot and talk about your current business, Inside.com. Is playing in somebody else's sandbox, I mean as you learned with Mahalo, as sort of some of us listening now. We've learned that from WordPress.com versus WordPress.org, two different businesses, two different entities. Is your play in email sort of saying, “You know what? To heck with these platforms. I'm just gonna go direct.” Jason C.: It's exactly … you couldn't be more right. After years of being frustrated by … Google was a big partner of ours. I was in their first quarterly report for Weblogs, Inc was the partner that they shared that was making money off of advertising. We were making over $2,000 a day. We were like the first million dollar independent company partner. So they used us as a case study, Weblogs, Inc and Gadget, and they used New York Times. I had this great 10 year relationship. I knew the founders of the company. I knew everybody there. Then they just decided to like go ham on us, and all the other content sites, and destroy us. Then when I called them, like I couldn't get my phone calls returned. I was like, “We're partners.” Then Matt Cutts is like, “We don't have partners and you don't have a penalty against you.” I'm like, “90% of our traffic's gone and here's 1,000 emails with your team talking about how great our partnership is.” They basically lied and you can see them getting dinged. They just got a $2.7 billion fine just on comparison shopping, so they're gonna get dinged for local. They get dinged for all these other things as well. They really use their monopolistic position to hurt the companies in their ecosystem, which I understand. I wouldn't have done it that way. They were loved originally by partners. What they should've done is just given us a licensing fee for our content and said, “Hey, if we put your content on the one box or whatever, we're just gonna give you 10 cents a CPM.” All of a sudden Yelp would've been getting a million dollar a month check and everybody would've been happy. Google would've been making 100 million off of that. There was a way for them to do it, and I think they probably regret it now, and they're probably trying to fix it. Or they're laughing all the way to the bank, it doesn't matter. Matt: I feel like they're doing it again with YouTube content and sort of just- Jason C.: Changing the rules. Matt: Yeah, sucking the life out of ad revenue. Jason C.: Yeah. No, all of a sudden they said, “If you have under 10,000 views, no ads.” If CNN talks about a terrorist attack, they can have advertising. If an independent person who helped build YouTube into what it is, like Philip DeFranco, mentions a terrorist attack, they won't put ads on it. So Philip went crazy on them. He said, “Wait a second. I helped build this platform and now you're changing it?” So Philip's leaving the platform. I saw that coming. I left the platform. Wmail is one of these great things. You can go direct and you can make money directly from consumers, so not even having to rely on advertising. Now we're going and saying to our customers, “Hey, pay for the content. We'll give you some extra content if you pay. If you want free, you get whatever it's gonna be, 20% or 60% of the content for free. Some percentage, 50/50, we're not sure yet, 60/40, will be for the paid people and for people who contributed.” We did it with LAUNCH Ticker, our first email newsletter. Of the 27,000 people, we have over 1,000 paying, so about 4%. If I can replicate that with the 200,000 subscribers on Inside.com's 26 newsletters, we'll have a great business. We'll have 8,000 paid subscribers. We'll be making a million dollars a year. That pays for a lot of journalists and you have 20 journalists working from home for that. I'm really interested in owning a deep direct relationship. Now, if you think about it, Gmail is even trying to- Matt: Oh yeah, that was gonna be my next question. Jason C.: For that, with their tabs and putting you in their thing. But it's so hard for them to do. We are even going to be going … We started experimenting with SMS and owning people's relationship there. I think use any of these other platforms if it gets you customers, but own a direct deep relationship. I can't tell you how many people I know who have apps and have no emails. It's like get the email address of these people and email is the big growth hack for Twitter and for a lot of other sites where they email you, “Here's what you missed.” That was the big hack for a lot of these companies. So if you're not collecting emails everywhere, and providing massive value to those email subscribers, you're doing it wrong. Matt: Yeah and I mean as again folks who are listening now, WordPress itself, being an opensource platform, you can do whatever you want. I mean we have tons of folks in the audience who are building membership sites. People are coming to the site. They're paying either $9 bucks a month, $200 bucks a year, transaction happens right on a WordPress site. They can control the content, put up a paywall, all that fun stuff. What's the product evolution of Inside.com? Do you then spin back to where you were five, six years ago and start creating video content along with this stuff, audio content, along- Jason C.: Yeah, anything's possible. I think the goal is once you have 10,000, 20,000 emails, you start to have this virtuous cycle where the news is coming to you. You can bolt anything onto something with 20,000, 30,000 emails, and that's gonna have some amount of success, so it's a very astute observation. It's very possible Inside AI could have a weekly podcast, and the email would drive the podcast. The email content would drive the topics of the podcast, so it's possible we can layer on podcasting onto email. What I found was every business I looked at kept saying if email's the growth thing, why don't we make email look [inaudible 00:32:41], right? Matt: Right. Jason C.: If everybody's looking and saying, “Hey, email is the thing to get growth,” what if the entire product is centered around email, and engagement, and opening it? So that's really what I'm focused on. I set a goal in the beginning like, “Let's get a certain number of opens.” We hit that. Then I said, “Let's get to 50 newsletters. We're halfway there.” Now I'm saying, “Let's get to 1 or 2% of the people who are free, paying. That just started three or four weeks ago, but it's promised thousands of dollars in monthly reoccurring revenue.” It's a very lightweight business, like many people who are part of your audience, I'm like literally aspiring to hitting that million dollars in revenue and having 20 full time 50k a year journalists working from home. A 50k salary for a journalist working from home, or 40k plus benefits, or something in that range, I mean you can get people with three, four or five years experience. We have this thing in New York and San Francisco where they think journalists need to make 70, 80, 90, $100,000. It turns out if you're living in New Hampshire, or Arizona, or other places, to get a work from home job with benefits for 40 or 50k is a tremendous tremendous opportunity. Matt: Yeah, absolutely. Jason C.: Because you can't get that salary. If you do get that salary, you probably have to drag your ass into an office. Matt: Right, right. I do miss your Inside Drones YouTube series that you were doing at one point. I do miss that. That was good. Jason C.: We'll get back to it. What we found was we weren't getting … it was cart before horse. When we started doing some of those tests, we weren't getting the engagement that we wanted, and then they were trying to figure out how to regrow it. So it's like oh, let's work backwards, you know? Matt: As we sort of wrap up here because I know you're a little crunched on time. How do you live in that happy chaos? Let me just stage that. I was talking to a founder today and in my mentor session, it was like okay, you're selling your product. You're out there, you're pushing it. But then there's like this little cloud above you. That little 20% of ideas, and testings, and little things you want to try sort of just floats up there. You sort of pull things out every now and again, like your Inside Drones, maybe cart before horse. How do you manage that? Because I feel like you do a lot of that. You're always testing things. You're always trying new ideas. You don't shy away from it. Jason C.: No. Matt: Is there a way for you to manage that? Jason C.: Yeah, for sure. Here's how I look at it. I look at startups themselves when I angel invest and I look at my own little tests as satellites, little missions. If you wanted to find life in the universe, I think the way to do it is to send out 100 probes to 100 different planets that could have life on them, and just see if you get a return signal, right? Matt: Right. Jason C.: That's the way to look at these experiments. If you get to a planet that you think is in the Goldilocks zone and shouldn't be inhabitable, and you get there and there's nobody there, great. You can cross that one off the list. As you start crossing them off the list, you're gonna start getting data. So oh, doing the podcast about drones didn't work, but doing a newsletter did. Okay, what's making the newsletter grow? Oh, doing interviews with people who are CEOs of drone companies means they retweet it, and people get value from it, and blah blah blah blah. You start figuring out what works, which experiments are getting you closer to finding life and which ones are not. Sometimes you gotta cross things off the list to know they don't work. That's really what's entrepreneurship is about, is you're just trying to triangulate around a signal. Sometimes it's a weak signal, but the signal starts getting stronger and stronger, and revenue and engagement are the signals. So open rates are the signal. When we started Inside, we have a newsletter called Daily Brief, which is just about the news of the day. We realized hey 40, 50% of people were opening it in the mornings. Then people were telling us the next day that a lot of the news was stale. So I said okay, let's run a test. Take the thousand people on the list and send like 1,000 of the 10,000 people or 20,000 people, whatever it is, a second edition at 3 o'clock in the afternoon with whatever else has happened, like an update. Just tell them it's an update on what was happening in the morning news. Like, four people were like, “I didn't ask for this.” We're like, “We'll unsubscribe you.” Three of them were like, “Don't unsubscribe, I love it.” But they were kind of upset that they were … I just told the whole list, “Listen, we're moving to twice a day. If you don't like it, unsubscribe.” Someone's like, “I only want once a day.” I was like, “We don't provide that.” They're like, “Okay.” They're like, “You can't do that.” There's always like a couple of people in every crowd where the people at a restaurant who are like, “You can't charge for bread,” and the restaurant's like, “We charge for bread.” “Okay, fine.” Or, “A hamburger should come with french fries. How do you charge for french fries?” Then you would say, “Well, not everybody wants french fries, so we charge an extra dollar for french fries. That's just the way we choose to do it. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.” Sometimes people listen too much to their costumers, so you gotta understand the overall impact of the metrics. That just requires having not a discussion about emotions, or feelings, or predictions, or who's in charge, but data and the crafting of experiments. The Lean Startup's a great book by my friend Erick Ries that talks about this lean startup methodology, which everybody listening to this should be familiar with. Matt: Yeah, definitely. Jason C.: But what's the least costly and quickest way to get the signal to understand if this is gonna work or not? That's your goal. How can you cheaply figure it out? The way I cheaply figure it out was let's just put a newsletter out there. Inside had a news app, hundreds of thousands of people downloaded the app. Less than 1% used it a day. When we send emails, 30, 40, 50% of people open each one and we send two a day. So you put that together, we went 50x using an old technology, and now we don't have seven developers working on an app, eight developers working on an app. The whole app team was maybe eight people, very highly paid people. We can redeploy those eight people's salaries, and hire a dozen journalists, and get further. That's no dig to the … It just turned out that news apps didn't work. I mean I was an investor in Circa and a bunch of other news apps I loved, and used, and nobody made a news app that's worked. It just doesn't work. People forget they have it. Matt: Yeah, I remember when you launched that, and I was like oh man, I don't know if I'm gonna be using this app all the time and I installed it. But then when you pivoted to the straight up email, I was like yes, this is … Because this is all I, I swear to god, this is not just because you're on my show and because I'm a super fan. But it's like the only place I read news now. I don't go into Facebook and even dare click on an article. One, because I don't want to get retargeted. Two, I don't want to see all the bullshit comments that people have to say about stuff. I just want to see the news headlines, get the synopsis, and then click on it if I so desire. I think Inside really hits the mark on that. Jason C.: Thank you. Matt: Oh man. One last followup on that. Ad free and just go membership monetization model moving forward or make sure- Jason C.: Probably a combination. In the free ones, we'll have free ones, and you can rock out with a free one, and there's a little bit of advertising in it, and then we'll have the space of users who pays. One of the things we're experimenting with is just letting people turn off the ad. In Launch Ticker, we let the thousand people turn off the ads, and I think 10 of them or 20 of them took the time to do it. So you can turn the ads off technically by just clicking a button in your profile settings, and it turns out nobody does. People like to see the ads if they're targeted, so I think you can have your cake and eat it too. I think you can have a paid Vanity Fair, though with ads. So it's- Matt: That's a pretty cool idea because I guess if somebody clicked on that, you could. The paid for newsletter just simply doesn't come with ads. If you don't want to see ads in your email, just scrolling the headlines, just pay for it. I mean it's super easy, makes sense. Jason C.: I think like there's this group of people, like when Hulu came out with … I had a Hulu subscription for $10 bucks. It had ads. It was making me crazy because Netflix doesn't have ads and I'm paying $10 bucks for that. Then they made a $13 version that had no ads. I upgraded to that. I think there's probably like 20% of people are sensitive enough that they would pay the extra $3, an extra $36 a year. Then most people would not. In this day and age, I don't know you have to choose. I think it would be brilliant for Netflix to have a version where today, this Saturday, Mercedes is making Netflix free, and you can watch Orange is the New Black and all the original shows are free this Saturday, brought to you by Mercedes. You have to watch a Mercedes ad at the beginning and take a survey at the end. Mercedes could just make a Saturday Mercedes day on Netflix. Netflix gets all the people to download and sample the shows. They give them $10 million or $5 million for doing it. Like, just do one day a month where Netflix is free. It'd be great onboarding. Matt: Yeah, no absolutely. Jason, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to do this. Look, I am finally- Jason C.: Thanks for reading the book. Matt: Yeah, no problem. Jason C.: I appreciate it. I was like oh, you send a book to a lot of people, and they're like, “Yeah,” you know. I'm like, “What did you like about the book?” You actually have like specific moments in the book. You actually read it, so I really appreciate that. Matt: I actually thought you were gonna say, “How did this schmuck get the book?” Jason C.: No, it's- Matt: Listen, I am only a 10 minute flight away from Nantucket, so whenever you want to have a beer the next time you're in town, you let me know. Jason C.: Oh my gosh, so you're on the Cape somewhere or where? Matt: Yeah, I'm at Dartmouth, Mass. So it's just I hop anywhere to New Bedford, hop on the airline, it's about 10, 15 minutes in air. It's beautiful. Jason C.: I love that place. I love that place, yeah. No, no. Be careful. Matt: Where can folks find you on the web to say thanks? Jason C.: Oh, well Twitter. My Twitter handle is Jason, J-A-S-O-N, same with my Instagram. If you went to check out Inside.com, take a look. Angel, the book, is in stores now. If you tweet me your receipt, I will give you a unicorn number and a name. Matt: That is hilarious by the way. Jason C.: It's pretty hilarious. Yeah, like 300 people have done it, so we give them a unicorn name and a unicorn number, so you count up. We're gonna do 1,000 unicorn names for the first thousand people who tweet their receipts. We're 300 in, so that's good. Matt: Go grab the book, folks. Even if you're not considering angel investment, it's an amazing book to reverse engineer, to find those angel investors out there and get that money into your business. Try to scale. Stop being the development in the basement. Or be the developer in the basement if you want, but- Jason C.: Yeah, just add a zero. Matt: Just add a zero. Just add a zero. Jason C.: That's what I always tell my founders, like just add a zero. Then they add the zero, so I said, “Okay, let's add one more and we're done.” Matt: Oh, that's awesome stuff. It's MattReport.com, MattReport.com/subscribe to join the mailing list. Thanks everybody. Jason C.: Thanks Matt. ★ Support this podcast ★

The guys discuss the massive floods in Houston,how employers responded, and why one meteorologist became a local hero. They also discuss the steps businesses should take in preparing for storms outside the workplace. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: And I am all dry from the weather. I think that’s the first question. Everything is safe and sound in Houston, Texas. MATT: I mean, I didn’t hear about this, I don’t think, until Tuesday? Monday? NASIR: Well, Monday is when it happened. MATT: Okay, it must have been Tuesday. NASIR: Yeah. So, what happened last Monday which would have been last, last Monday when this episode comes out? Basically, overnight – and I was kind of half-awake – it was just raining like crazy all night. Of course, I’m not in ivory tower on the eighth floor of our building so I wasn’t really too concerned about anything in my own selfishness. But I knew something was going on and I woke up at like 4:30 in the morning, checking my phone, to see if there’s floods or whatever. And then, I think, at 5:00 or 6:00, the weather warning goes off on your phone and so forth. But, overnight, things just started to flood like crazy and people woke up to flooded homes, flooded streets. You see, Houston, just picture a huge area that’s completely flat and then cover it with cement and then pour rain on it. That’s Houston, basically. Of course, it’s going to flood. So, it’s been kind of a rough week and so we thought we’d cover some of the implications of that flooding. MATT: Well, yeah, that’s what I was going to ask because I’ve never been there. Is it like San Diego that the city was not built for any sort of rain? I mean, it would never even rain that long in San Diego but the drainage system in San Diego is so poor that it just can’t. NASIR: That’s true. In San Diego, if it rains pretty hard, I remember in Mission Valley, there would be spots where it’d just be impassable. But you’re right, it’s because San Diego is not built for that and it hardly gets any rain. When it does rain, the ocean water or the sewage water goes into the ocean and you can’t swim for X number of weeks, et cetera. But, in Houston, I mean, first of all, it’s basically swampland. And so, to answer your question, it’s supposed to be built for rain. The problem is it’s just flat. The only thing that they can do, for example, in Galveston, what they did is they literally – this was decades ago – Galveston is a beach city close to Houston on the gulf and basically they raised everything, like, ten feet – meaning the buildings – and so, that way, when there’s a surge of water in the ocean, you know, it doesn’t flood every single time. That’s really the only thing that they do here. Basically, when they build new buildings, they make sure it has a run-off and what is it called? A reserve? MATT: Moat? NASIR: Not a moat. Like, depending upon the size of the lot, they dig below and then they build up so that the water has somewhere to go. Most of the time, that works. But, of course, all of these old neighborhoods which, frankly, tend to be the lower income areas, are the ones that get affected most when these things happen. MATT: How long did this happen for? Just one day or was it multiple days? NASIR: Sunday night and it was basically flood waters that would not recede until the next day but then, also, Tuesday, there was more rain. On Wednesday, there was more rain. That kind of exasperated it a little bit. But the worst of the worst was on Monday. I think a total of eight or so people have passed on most of those on Monday, I believe. MATT: Yeah, that’s crazy. I mean, the reason I ask is what we’re going to talk about today is kind of the employer response – maybe how employers in Houston responded and how they should respond and kind of this vigilante meteorologist that stepped up in the Houst...

The guys discuss Starbucks firing a deaf employee and what is considered a reasonable accommodation for someone requiring a sign language interpreter. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha and I have a Jolly Rancher in my mouth. MATT: Could have just waited, and I’m Matt Staub, and I’m saying you could have just waited for however long it takes. NASIR: I thought it would be melted by now. MATT: What flavor? NASIR: I don’t know if it melts. It’s sour apple. MATT: Oh. NASIR: I think the best flavor. MATT: The worst, probably. NASIR: Really? That’s the best. It’s the only one I think I really like. MATT: Well, if you ever noticed – actually, I don’t know – maybe the green ones but it seems like every time someone has Jolly Ranchers on their desk or like, when you walk into a building, it’s always grape. No one ever has the grape ones. NASIR: I actually like the grape and the green ones. All the red ones kind of just mash into each other like watermelon and cherry. MATT: Yeah, you can’t decipher one. It’s just red. I mean, it should just be colors – cherry, strawberry, watermelon, raspberry. NASIR: And blue. MATT: Yeah. Blue is usually raspberry, I think. NASIR: Yeah, but blue tastes unnatural – not that any of these others taste natural but… MATT: Well, at least the sour apples are usually green. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: Not that the skin of the apple is produced in the Jolly Ranchers but, yeah, blue raspberry is obviously very unnatural. NASIR: Yeah, exactly. MATT: Not that any of them are very authentically flavored in terms of juice. Anyway, I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about today. Let me make sure. Nope, we’re not. NASIR: Any smooth transition into this? I don’t think so. MATT: No. I mean, there probably is, but I’m not going to even go for it. This is pretty interesting. I don’t know if we’ve ever talked about a sign language related issue before. NASIR: No, and I know we haven’t because, if we did, I would have definitely mentioned that I took a couple of semesters of sign language in college which was awesome. I still know some of the basics so I can kind of eavesdrop on a lot of people’s conversations from a distance which is very rude and taboo. MATT: Why did you take those classes? NASIR: I have no idea. In fact, my wife asked me the same thing. Like, “I don’t know why you took those classes.” I met my wife in a foreign language class so I didn’t need it for a language credit. I think I just did it because I was interested in it. MATT: That’s what I was going to ask because, my wife, they had to take some sort of language class and she opted for sign language but that wasn’t the case with you, I guess. NASIR: No, I’ve taken first year languages – many, many different languages. I’m not fluent in any other language but I’ve taken a lot of first for like one year or so. MATT: You basically can say “my name is…” in every language. NASIR: Precisely. MATT: “How are you?” and then just nothing. NASIR: Correct – which I don’t know which is better – which I would rather be. MATT: Fluent in one. Well, I guess fluent in multiple languages. I assume you’re fluent at least in English. NASIR: Barely. MATT: All right. NASIR: I can say my name then that’s it. I can do an introduction of a podcast. MATT: Ah. Well, anyway, this is a sign language based story we’re talking about which actually falls under disability which we’ll get to but let me tell some back story. This Starbucks in Arizona and I’ve read a couple of different stories on this so I’m going to pull the facts from one of them and, if it happens to be off, then I’ll blame this specific article but there’s a woman that worked at Starbucks from 2007 to 2014. That’s a pretty good amount of time. She was doing sign language from the beginning of 2007 throughout the duration of her employment and so she was working there, no problems.

The guys kick off the week by discussing why the Federal Aviation Administration shutdown a startup trying to be the Uber for flights and how the company is trying to fight back. Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Hello! Welcome. That’s how I’m going start to our podcast from now on. No, welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And I’m Matt Staub. NASIR: I was thinking, like, I feel like I’m starting a phone call so I have to say hello and you have to say hello. MATT: Does that happen on a phone call? Both people say hello? I think it’s just one, right? NASIR: No, I don’t know. I thought you say hello and the other person says hello back, no? I guess that doesn’t happen. MATT: You call me, I would say, “Hello,” and you wouldn’t go, “Hello.” You would say… NASIR: That’s true. MATT: At least I don’t think so. I guess you could. NASIR: I may start doing that but it might get confusing and they may think it’s a question like, “Are you there?” MATT: In the days of answering machines, the best one I ever came up with was, you know, it would ring and then there must have been a beep or else it wouldn’t work but the answering machine would start and I would just say, “Hello?” and I would wait, like, ten seconds, and then I would say, “Sorry, we’re not here right now…” you know, whatever, and so they would be like, mid-sentence into talking because they thought someone was answering. NASIR: Those were the worst. So, you were one of those guys, huh? MATT: Unfortunately. I mean, I guess you could do it with voicemail, but I think there’s too many beeps and noises nowadays where I think it wouldn’t work. NASIR: Yeah. I remember I used to, on voicemails on cell phones, I would get caught on that too with people like you. MATT: Most people text nowadays so phone calls are a thing of the past. NASIR: I usually text “hello” first. “Hello! Are you there?” MATT: That’s a good way to start and then I write back, “Hello.” NASIR: And then, I start talking. “How are you?” MATT: So, I don’t know if you’d heard about this. I hadn’t heard about this company prior to reading some of these stories or seeing this lawsuit. NASIR: No, I haven’t. For some reason, I thought it probably exists because it’s almost obvious now but I didn’t know the actual company. MATT: I’m assuming they’re called Flytenow. That seems like that makes sense but… NASIR: Well, I’m pretty sure they just misspelled “flight.” MATT: Problem number one. NASIR: But I do think that’s how it’s pronounced. MATT: Well, that’s how they were able to go under the radar for a little bit before the FAA shut them down. Maybe they were just searching flight-based companies. So, Flytenow, it’s an I guess you could call it a flight sharing company – something like Uber or anything in the sharing community is obviously really big right now. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: The difference being that a lot more people have driver’s licenses as opposed to a pilot’s license so it’s a little bit different. NASIR: Yeah. MATT: How it worked and I believe it looks like it is still up and running. Is it still up and running? NASIR: Well, it seems like their website’s up and running but then, on some of their releases, they say they have suspended operations. Maybe their marketing is such that they haven’t. 7 MATT: I mean, just getting to that, they started this company, this flight-sharing company where basically pilots and non-pilots could get together and go from one destination to the next and possibly a round-trip too but just essentially sharing the costs of that so kind of an everybody wins situation. The Federal Aviation Administration, the US government agency, basically said, “Well, this is unacceptable,” and they shut it down. That’s why I was wondering about whether it was still up and running or not. They shut the website down but the site is operating. I haven’t tried to book a flight to see if it actually – ...

In Episode 24 of Breaking Walls, we sit down with WallBreakers co-founder Matt Weckel about all the places his life has taken him and the things he's learned as parenthood approaches for the first time. It's a great chat between a couple of Brooklyn natives who are long-time friends. Highlights • Was Brooklyn an angry place to grow up living in? If so, Why? • How Matt's parents instilled a progressive culture in his life • What is Siricos and why is it important? • Where Matt's need to leave NYC came from • The many ways in which losing his mom deeply affected Matt • How his creativity began to take off • Why his first year of marriage has been so good • Why he's not afraid of being a first-time parent • Lessons his parents taught him that he wants to pass down • Is he ready?

The guys end the week talking about why the valet mode in Corvettes may be illegal in some states. I want to make a short web series that is similar to a popular TV show. How much should I be worried about copyright infringement?" Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: All right. Welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and answer some of your business legal questions that you, the listener, can send in to ask@legallysoundsmartbusiness.com. My name is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And my name is Matt Staub and we do answer some of our questions as well. I heard what you're going with that intro. NASIR: Nice! So, this is our Friday episode where anything can happen, including covering business legal topics in the news and answering business legal questions, including that as well and many other things. MATT: It sounds eerily similar to every other episode we’ve but that's all right. NASIR: No, no, it's Friday, so add a little spice to it. MATT: Yeah, we’ve got a pretty cool story and I didn't know – you know this better than me because you own, what? Five Corvettes. NASIR: Actually, four – I lost my fifth one. MATT: Well, that's too bad. Well, maybe if you would have use the valet mode, then you have known where it went. But, apparently, this could be illegal, too. I wasn’t aware of this, apparently, for the latest Corvettes that has been released, they have this thing called “valet mode” which basically, you get out of your car, you can turn on this little thing, you can basically kind of track everything that happens. I think you can even record the audio of inside the car of what's said and, obviously, you can just see what's going on. Basically, they don’t want the Ferris Bueller situation where the valets take the car for a joyride. So, that's valet mode but, apparently, looks like this could be illegal because you can’t record video without the consent of both parties involved in some states. I think there's eleven states, right? Yeah, eleven states in which both parties are against this. Obviously, you're going to consent as the car owner but are the valet drivers going to consent? I don’t know, maybe they will, maybe the wont. But the problem is they need to. NASIR: And so, I'm just wondering, like, if you're in a two-party consent state like California, if you are close to the border, you know, you can just valet to another place, but then why would they do that? With the Corvette, you can get there pretty quick. MATT: How long are the valet processes you're thinking of? NASIR: I’m just trying to imagine how different Ferris Bueller’s Day Off would be in the event they had this valet device. MATT: It is pretty interesting though. I mean, I obviously understand the law that you need to have both parties to consent. But, at the same time, this is a car that you owned – or at least presumably you’re leasing – you have some sort of ownership on it. It's your private car, you should have a little bit of a right to record what's going on to see if somebody is, I mean, I guess when you walk into, what's the difference between this and a store that’s recording video of customers that are walking in and out? People are consenting to that. Maybe they are implicitly, I don’t know. NASIR: Well, yeah. For some reason, audio is treated differently. Video is one thing because you may be in public. But then, audio, if you're having a private conversation, for whatever reason, the law treats a little bit differently because there's a little bit more expectation of privacy and so when you are recording inside your store or whatever, you do have to have proper notices. But, you know, not all states are like that. I mean, like you said, it's only ten states, I believe. Texas and New York, for example, are classically one-party consent states and I understand what that means is that one party of the conversation so that means that you can’t eavesdrop or wiretap as the third party unless one of those two people or more that ...

Summary of today's show: Fr. Rick Martignetti grew up in the North End of Boston before becoming a Franciscan priest of the Order of Friars Minor. The Lord has returned him to his old neighborhood where he serves at St. Leonard's Parish among the people he grew up with. Scot Landry and Fr. Matt Williams talk with Fr. Rick, who was at St. Joseph's in Wakefield where he was preparing to speak on the third night of the 2012 God of This City Tour. They discussed how to discern God's call in our lives and how we can best respond in love and faithfulness. Listen to the show: Watch the show via live video streaming or a recording later: Today's host(s): Scot Landry and Fr. Matt Williams Today's guest(s): Fr. Rick Martignetti, OFM Links from today's show: Today's topics: Fr. Rick Martignetti, OFM 1st segment: Scot Landry wished everyone a happy feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Scot welcomed Fr. Matt from St. Joseph Parish in Wakefield where they're preparing for the third night of the God of This City Tour. He said they will be having Mass at St. Joseph's for the feast tonight. For him, Our Lady reminds him of the dignity and humanity of the unborn. He noted that in that miraculous image, Our Lady is pregnant with Jesus. He said Our Lady has been the protagonist for his priestly ministry. Scot noted that Cardinal Sean published a rare non-Friday message on his blog today about this feast and also gave a major address in Spanish in Rome today at a conference on the Church in the Americas. 12-12-12 is an interesting date, as it represents the last time in this century that the month, day and year will all match. But December 12 for Catholics, during this Year of Faith, is also a very important day. First, the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI (@pontifex), begins his tweeting ministry, symbolizing in a new way the Church's embrace of technology and tools of communication as a way to share the eternal and saving Truth of the Good News of Jesus Christ. The other reason for the day's importance, and one of the factors in Pope Benedict's choosing of this day to launch his newest communication initiative, is that it is the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, who we revere as the Mother of the New Evangelization and the Patroness of all the Americas (North, South and Central). After Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared to St. Juan Diego 481 years ago, one of the most rapid periods of evangelization in the history of the Church began. During this Year of Faith, I ask all Catholics to study the message of Our Lady of Guadalupe to St. Juan Diego. Our Catholic brothers and sisters from Mexico and in Central and South American countries are devoted to her motherly care, but many Catholics raised in the United States are not as aware of what happened in December of 1531 as I hope they soon will be. Now is a great time for this connection with Our Lady of Guadalupe to be established, renewed or deepened. We can begin by attending Mass and praying a family Rosary on December 12. Scot asked Fr. Matt how the first two nights of the tour have gone. Fr. Matt said the first two nights were in Framingham and Marshfield. The focus of the first night was the meaning of the word “revelation”, which literally means lifting the veil. He used as an example a scene from the movie Elf where the main character meets a fake Santa and is able to tell the difference between the real Santa and the fake because he knows him. The second night featured Jason Deramo speaking on being called. 2nd segment: Scot welcomed Fr. Rick to the show. He posed to him and Fr. Matt the questions that Pope Benedict have answered on his twitter account today. First was How we can celebrate the Year of Faith better in our daily lives. Fr. Rick said anything that moves us closer to Jesus is good. For some it might be going to Mass more than Sundays. It's a way to say the Lord that I'm here not just for obligation, but because I love you. Scot posed this one to Fr. Matt: “How can faith in Jesus be lived in a world without hope?” Fr. Matt quoted the Holy Father's response: “We can be certain that a believer is never alone. God is the solid rock upon which we build our lives and his love is always faithful.” The third question was “Any suggestions on how to be more prayerful when we are so busy with the demands of work, families and the world?” Fr. Rick said we're all so busy, but we don't have to run 24/7. Sometimes we need to push back for 5 or 10 minutes at a time. Slowing down is an art which takes practice. Scot's sense that the questions the Holy Father will answer from the hashtag #askpontifex will be the bigger questions of life. Scot asked Fr. Rick about his background. Fr. Rick said he's from Boston originally and it's been 16 years since he's lived here. For the last four years he was at Franciscan University of Steubenville, which has about 2,500 students all on fire for their faith. He said he grew up knowing the friars at his home parish of St. Leonard's Parish and Christopher COlumbus high School in the North End. He got away from the faith in college and a pilgrimage got him back into his faith and the friars were there for him at 23 years old when he was asking the big questions of life. It was an experience of coming home in coming back to the friars. Fr. Rick said he is with the Order of Friars Minor and he is in the Immaculate Conception Province. St. Leonard's is their formation house for young men discerning whether they are called to the order. From there, they could become novices with the order. Fr. Rick was struck by the friars as men of prayer, who made Our Lady part of their lives and spent time in daily prayer before the Blessed Sacrament. Daily prayer has become more important than food or oxygen. The Holy Spirit does the real work. All we have to do is lead people to Christ and set up a structure for them to hear him daily. In time, Jesus will reveal to the young men and young women where they are called to be. Fr. Matt asked how he responds to the question, How do I know? Fr. Rick said young people often want to know everything immediately. He encourages them to go slowly and begin a life of discernment, not just a program of discernment. We start to take steps based on hunches. He was drawn to the Franciscans and spent time with them and the Lord confirmed this as the months went by as he felt more and more at home with these men. He was surprised and excited to be back in Boston at this time. He loves what Fr. Matt and Office for the New Evangelization of Youth and Young Adults are doing. He thinks the faith is taking root in Boston again among young people looking for Christ. This wasn't going on when he left 16 years ago. Scot said it's uncommon for a priest, religious or diocesan, to be given the task of pastoral care of the community that nurtured him. He said it's been fun coming back to his roots. He could have ended up anywhere but it's a beautiful gift to be called back to Boston and the Italian community in the North End with the festivals. He grew up doing that. Scot said the Church looks to Franciscan University for the way it conducts ministry for young people. He asked what Fr. Rick has learned. He said the summer conferences get the most attention. They are based on the belief that young people can meet Jesus, have fun, and receive fulfilment. They have wonderful speakers, great music, and the sacraments. They lead them to Jesus and let Him do the rest. To speak to young people today, you have to be into modern technology and music. Fr. Matt agreed that music plays a huge role. We were created to worship God and that includes singing. It's how God has wired us. It's important for people to learn the Church's music, from chant to modern hymns and even Christian music in popular genres. He's also learned that large event gatherings—like conferences, World Youth Day, the March for Life—they learn they are not alone and they see the Church on the national or international level. In those gatherings you see priests in habits and collars and religious in their habits. All of this is meant to help young people come to a personal encounter with Jesus in his Church. Franciscan University packages these dynamic practices together and offer them in a weekend format. Scot asked about people who don't see how Christian rap or heavy metal can lead young people to God. Fr. Rick said the Lord transcends culture and taste. The Lord is everywhere; how do we express our love for him best. The trouble comes from trying to put Jesus in a box. Jesus is for everyone an he came to set us free. When we take our need to worship and bring it to Jesus, we discover our purpose. 3rd segment: This week's benefactor card raffle winner is Denise Sherman from Lakeville She wins two CD's from Michael John Poirier: “The Voice of A Child: Advent” and “The Voice of a Child: Christmas”. If you would like to be eligible to win in an upcoming week, please visit . For a one-time $30 donation, you'll receive the Station of the Cross benefactor card and key tag, making you eligible for WQOM's weekly raffle of books, DVDs, CDs and religious items. We'll be announcing the winner each Wednesday during “The Good Catholic Life” program. 4th segment: Scot asked why Fr. Rick is speaking on the third night of the tour. He noted that it's Prince Spaghetti Day (a reference for older folks who remember the old TV commercials). He said he will talk to tonight about how God equips those he calls. They will look at the story of Jonah who finds himself in the belly of a fish, realizing he needs to rethink his life. He is a model for going in the right direction and having the courage to be a voice for God. Fr. Rick said St. Francis has a beautiful story with some key turning points. One is when he encounters a man suffering from leprosy. He'd avoided people like that his whole life, but he feels the movement of God in his life so much he embraces and holds the man. He later said that's when everything in his life changed. The Lord led him to the people with leprosy and everything changed. What he'd been avoiding his whole life was actually the means of salvation. From then on, he lived among them. Fr. Rick said his experience is that ministry is called out of him; other people sometimes call you to something. He feels more comfortable that something is of God when others ask him to do it. He used to be terrified of public speaking and being called to the priesthood, he tried it and met God there. When Fr. Rick thought of teaching he was terrified, but when he thought of it as faith sharing that became do-able. Before he preaches he looks for the personal message in the Scripture and then share it with others, inviting them to a space where they can hear something. Once the focus shifted from him to Jesus, it got a lot easier. Scot said beyond the music and speaker, at God of This City, people take concerns on their minds and bring them to the Lord. Fr. Rick said where the Church is alive and being renewed you find Eucharistic adoration. People don't know the power of just being in the presence of Jesus. Scot asked him why Eucharistic adoration is so important to him. Fr. Rick said the vows he takes of poverty, chastity and obedience only make sense when he meets Jesus in the Eucharist. Jesus offered his body on the cross, but it makes offering of the body for celibacy seems a natural response. Scot said another aspect of tonight will be confessions. When people pray in an intense way before the Eucharist, they feel the call to the sacrament of confession. Fr. Rick said he was away from the sacraments in college and when he finally back after 7 years. He found receiving Christ through his priest felt welcoming and an experience of coming home. He said the Lord stands with his arms wide open waiting to embrace you. Of St. Anthony Shrine, he said it's a beautiful ministry and it's beautiful to see people stop in all day long to hear confessions. He talked about taking people on pilgrimages to Assisi and how permeated by the spirit of St. Francis it is. Fr. Rick said they try to keep St. Leonard's open all night long for the sake of the people visiting the North End. He said about once per month the Office for the New Evangelization of Youth and Young Adults also does Jesus in the North End for college students and young adults. He said it's a haven for those in a busy neighborhood needing a place to be quiet for a few moments, which is just as important as finding a good cannoli. Scot said you can see the amazing photos from the God of This City events at or at the Archdiocese of Boston's Facebook page at .