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Recap of Episode 22 of Australian Survivor Brains V Brawn 2 - Battle of the Brains! Thanks for listening! Follow us: Instagram @ATASurvivor TikTok @ATASurvivor Email us: ATAustralianSurvivor@gmail.com Transcript: 00;00;00;00 - 00;00;03;43 Rachel Hello and welcome to American stock Australian survivor I'm Rachel. 00;00;03;45 - 00;00;04;17 Leah I'm Leah. 00;00;04;21 - 00;00;05;39 Matt And I'm Matt. 00;00;05;44 - 00;00;25;34 Rachel Thanks for joining us. We just watched episode 22 of Australian Survivor brains versus brawn two. And there will be spoilers ahead. We open up on the final five. Woo hoo! Wow. It's been a long journey for these players, but they are proud of themselves and they have made it to a huge accomplishment on any season of survivor to make it to the final. 00;00;25;34 - 00;00;29;09 Leah 544 days. It's unbelievable. 00;00;29;14 - 00;00;31;49 Matt You start to get nervous now right? 00;00;31;54 - 00;00;45;36 Rachel Yeah, and they should be, because we see Miles and Zahra talking on the beach. And Miles and Miles really wants to sit next to Zahra at the end. He thinks he can beat her and he thinks it's time to target age. It's number one. 00;00;45;41 - 00;00;47;57 Leah I don't want AJ to go boo. 00;00;48;02 - 00;01;05;54 Rachel Well, you know, I mean, I think we talked last episode about Kate and Morgan turning on each other and how how they didn't turn on each other because they have such a close alliance and how it's tough to watch that on survivor because you say, oh, it's a game, you've got to vote out your friends. And now here we go. 00;01;05;54 - 00;01;11;48 Rachel We see Miles being a survivor player, saying, I'm going to vote for my friend because I want to win this game, right? 00;01;11;51 - 00;01;15;11 Leah You did. He kept saying that I'm going to win the game. 00;01;15;22 - 00;01;32;04 Matt And with all the seasons of survivor we've watched, there's always people saying we're going to be friends for the rest of our lives. On the outside, we're going to stay in touch. So I mean, they become very good friends with when you eat, sleep and drink with somebody all day for weeks. 00;01;32;08 - 00;01;37;50 Rachel Yeah. And I think that Myles and AJ both have enough respect for the game that they'll be friends outside of this for sure. 00;01;37;52 - 00;01;41;37 Leah Well, Miles even said that that he thinks that data will respect them. 00;01;41;37 - 00;01;42;02 Leah Exactly. 00;01;42;10 - 00;01;43;30 Rachel So he's thinking that yeah. 00;01;43;37 - 00;01;45;42 Matt Yeah. When I vote you out, you'll respect me. 00;01;45;43 - 00;01;46;00 Leah Yeah. 00;01;46;00 - 00;01;59;27 Rachel One thing that Myles did say to Zara is when I take out AJ, the jury's going to be wowed. So Myles is already taking credit for this move. That hasn't happened yet that he needs Zara to help with. 00;01;59;31 - 00;02;00;15 Matt It's funny all. 00;02;00;15 - 00;02;01;01 Leah These all these. 00;02;01;09 - 00;02;04;27 Matt Plans it seems like a battle of the brains is really coming. Coming true. 00;02;04;31 - 00;02;16;13 Rachel Yeah. We've barely heard about Kate by the beginning part of the episode. She was almost gone last night and now she seems to have skated on by because the post grads are turning on each other, right? 00;02;16;20 - 00;02;22;25 Leah Yes. Well, I think it's interesting that there are four brains left. And last season, Hayley won 00;02;22;25 - 00;02;27;24 Leah the last brawn versus brains. So it's interesting. The brains. Here they go again. 00;02;27;28 - 00;02;31;36 Rachel It certainly looks like the brains are victorious against the brawn. 00;02;31;45 - 00;02;34;51 Matt If you could just get through those first couple of ones that you lose 00;02;34;51 - 00;02;35;33 Matt the brawn 00;02;35;33 - 00;02;42;18 Matt finishes all the, the tribal, the challenges and wins them all. If you can just get through those, you have a better chance, right? 00;02;42;27 - 00;02;44;49 Rachel Being a brain if you can make it to the merge. Right. 00;02;45;26 - 00;02;59;34 Rachel Well we see the brains all talking to each other. The postgraduates and Myles is expressing that Kate is next. And AJ being the great poker player that he is. Says that's ridiculous. He's definitely got something else up his sleeve. 00;02;59;37 - 00;03;00;56 Leah Yeah. 00;03;01;00 - 00;03;06;23 Rachel So he knows him well. Yeah. He doesn't know that he's the target, but he certainly knows him well. 00;03;06;28 - 00;03;11;15 Matt Right? He thinks it's Kaitlyn. Yeah, AJ thinks my Myles is going to vote Kaitlyn. 00;03;11;15 - 00;03;13;00 Leah Right? And he tells Kaitlyn that. 00;03;13;00 - 00;03;16;49 Rachel And he also tells Art, which is interesting that Zar is getting all A's. 00;03;16;54 - 00;03;17;27 Leah Yeah right. 00;03;17;39 - 00;03;31;03 Matt And I thought for sure at this point that AJ was going to say and Myles has a now an idol but he didn't. He kept it like a good poker player. Kept it close to his chest. Didn't let other people see what he knows. 00;03;31;03 - 00;03;49;22 Rachel Well now it's time to get into the immunity challenge. So. Right at the beginning, we talked about, you know, how Kaitlyn's won so many. And AJ announces to the group that he wants Kaitlyn to win every single one in hopes that he doesn't stop. Which is an interesting thing to say about your competitor. 00;03;49;27 - 00;04;04;53 Leah I think AJ is such a good friend to Kaitlyn. He really sincerely wants him to keep winning and maybe he knows since he is good friends with Kaitlyn, Kaitlyn will protect him with that with immunity. I guess it's better to have your friend win it than someone else. 00;04;04;58 - 00;04;09;19 Rachel Yeah, and I guess AJ probably could beat Kaitlyn at the end. I think that's what he's thinking. 00;04;09;24 - 00;04;10;34 Leah I think so. 00;04;10;39 - 00;04;15;06 Matt I guess so. So if Kaitlyn wins everyone, that's okay because he'll take me with him. 00;04;15;11 - 00;04;16;20 Leah Yeah. 00;04;16;25 - 00;04;19;24 Rachel Yeah I don't know if AJ has told us who his top 00;04;19;24 - 00;04;20;33 Rachel person said Kaitlyn. 00;04;20;33 - 00;04;22;44 Leah I thought he so did. Yeah I think he said both and. 00;04;22;44 - 00;04;26;34 Rachel It makes me. Yeah yeah makes sense that he wants Kaitlyn to keep winning immunities. 00;04;26;34 - 00;04;29;27 Matt But did he ever tell Myles that he was that they were. 00;04;29;34 - 00;04;32;28 Leah I think Myles and AJ know that they can't take each other. 00;04;32;30 - 00;04;34;04 Matt Okay. They're smart enough. 00;04;34;05 - 00;04;34;27 Leah Yeah. 00;04;34;29 - 00;04;38;49 Rachel Yeah. Yeah. They know they can't sit next to each other. But what what how would that be. That would be. 00;04;38;49 - 00;04;44;55 Leah Awesome. I would be the best. The absolutely best. And who would win? Yeah. All right, so off to the immunity challenge, 00;04;44;55 - 00;05;05;23 Rachel Yeah. So they have to take these blocks over a little obstacle where you can, you know, trip it and wobble your stack, and you have to stack up 12 blocks. So it feels kind of similar to last night's, challenge at tribal council where, you know, you're stacking things and it's balance and it's precision. Right? So I, I was a little frustrated that it was quite similar. 00;05;05;24 - 00;05;08;42 Rachel I would have wanted something a little bit different. Right. Back to back. 00;05;08;43 - 00;05;09;07 Leah Challenges. 00;05;09;11 - 00;05;12;41 Matt Similar to immunity challenge number two from from the previous. 00;05;12;41 - 00;05;34;13 Leah Episode. Well, what I didn't like is that they didn't base it on height. Like AJ had an extremely difficult time getting under the, gate. And, Jonathan even said something about being like, I don't know, something about tall. Yeah, it was a challenge, so that just doesn't seem fair. Why not make it so everyone has an equal, distance? 00;05;34;18 - 00;05;36;08 Matt Okay. Should be based on your body, right? 00;05;36;09 - 00;05;36;42 Leah Correct. 00;05;36;54 - 00;05;43;59 Rachel Because, yeah, for the strength ones, they do it by percentage of your body weight. So it should be the same thing. It should be based on your height. 00;05;44;00 - 00;05;44;31 Leah Yes. 00;05;44;42 - 00;05;49;42 Matt And someone with shorter legs has a harder time because they have to lift their feet up higher. So maybe they're just saying it's, 00;05;49;42 - 00;05;58;10 Matt both, you know, taller people have to duck down lower. Shorter people have to lift their feet higher. But I think you got to lift your feet higher a lot more. I don't know. It should be. 00;05;58;21 - 00;06;01;03 Matt I feel like it should be the same for everybody. Based on your height. 00;06;01;03 - 00;06;01;38 Leah I agree. 00;06;01;48 - 00;06;03;18 Rachel They never take our advice. What 00;06;03;18 - 00;06;05;25 Rachel changes are they working on? 00;06;05;30 - 00;06;10;25 Leah Yes I know. Yeah. All right, so Caitlin's in the lead, right? 00;06;10;30 - 00;06;14;01 Rachel Yeah. To no one's surprise, Kate and Caitlin are both doing well. 00;06;14;06 - 00;06;15;27 Leah Right? Very well. 00;06;15;27 - 00;06;18;19 Rachel it looks like Caitlin's about to pull through, but he drops. 00;06;18;25 - 00;06;23;34 Leah Oh. All right, number 11. How upsetting. Oh, down. Wow. Had to be hard. 00;06;23;38 - 00;06;29;11 Rachel And he was, you know, preparing himself, taking a deep breath before he went in. So that was really too bad. 00;06;29;16 - 00;06;30;56 Leah Now okay. So that's the lead, right? 00;06;30;56 - 00;06;47;33 Rachel Yeah. So it's everyone's anyone's game really at this point. And this is one of those this is kind of fun about these sort of challenges is that you see people build up their stack and then they fall, and then someone else is in the lead and then someone else builds up. So it's kind of like a revolving door of who is leading the challenge. 00;06;47;33 - 00;06;49;31 Rachel So that's always a little exciting. 00;06;49;31 - 00;06;59;14 Rachel We see a lot of people drop. We see Myles drop on his absolute 12th block, yet the last one I need to set to take away the oh I couldn't get it. 00;06;59;14 - 00;07;01;27 Rachel So he looked really upset about that. 00;07;01;32 - 00;07;05;14 Leah And Zara wins. Yeah for Zara. 00;07;05;19 - 00;07;10;04 Rachel I don't think she dropped at all. She finally hurt as J. Upset. Finally. Yeah. 00;07;10;04 - 00;07;11;46 Leah Yeah, right. I honestly. 00;07;11;51 - 00;07;17;34 Matt I think that was an odd thing to say. Well yeah somebody is winning them all. And then you win one fight. 00;07;17;35 - 00;07;26;50 Leah Right right right. Well maybe but she did a great job. Like she's slow and steady. And congratulations to Zara. That was really incredible. And it. 00;07;26;54 - 00;07;30;20 Matt Was great at the end even as they were leaving the stack was still standing. 00;07;30;25 - 00;07;34;27 Leah Right in the background and she was doing a little dance. Yeah, right. 00;07;34;32 - 00;07;35;13 Rachel She seemed very. 00;07;35;13 - 00;07;38;30 Leah Proud. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it was great. 00;07;38;35 - 00;07;39;42 Rachel I don't think we. 00;07;39;45 - 00;07;46;11 Leah Could do that. Yeah. No. Yeah. It was fun to see her so happy. Yeah, right. She's a very serious player, so that was nice. 00;07;46;11 - 00;08;03;20 Rachel So let me get back to camp. And Myles and Zara are still gunning for, AJ and they're really thinking ahead. They say we're going to tell Kate to vote for Kaitlyn. And then on the next vote at the Final Four, we're going to say, hey, Kaitlyn, remember when Kate voted for you? We've got to get her out. 00;08;03;20 - 00;08;11;17 Rachel So they're thinking, you know, multiple steps ahead of how to get people mad at each other. So you have to appreciate the good gameplay. 00;08;11;22 - 00;08;20;21 Leah I do, but Zara made a good point. She said. If we fail this, it's not going to be good, right? So they have to make sure they do not fail at this vote. 00;08;20;21 - 00;08;27;29 Rachel Yeah, so they're planning to do two votes on, Kate, two votes on AJ and then one vote somewhere else. 00;08;27;29 - 00;08;29;00 Matt On Kaitlyn, I think. 00;08;29;05 - 00;08;34;12 Rachel On Kaitlyn. And then they're going to revote and then it's going to be two. So they've got a. 00;08;34;12 - 00;08;35;37 Leah Lot of right. 00;08;35;47 - 00;08;40;42 Matt Then there's only the two of them who can vote. And then they can both vote off whoever they want to vote. 00;08;40;42 - 00;08;46;53 Rachel AJ dizzying to think about all these different strategies that everyone has going on with only five votes. 00;08;46;59 - 00;08;53;56 Leah I don't know how they do this. They're so tired. And now, you know, I haven't had anything to eat. But here, they're very good. 00;08;54;01 - 00;08;54;44 Rachel They're good. 00;08;54;44 - 00;09;01;16 Matt But it's interesting that they could, that Myles comes up with a 2 to 1 vote. And then AJ comes up with two one. 00;09;01;18 - 00;09;04;15 Leah Yes. Well that's why they're friends. 00;09;04;20 - 00;09;05;33 Rachel Yeah. They think alike. 00;09;05;35 - 00;09;06;15 Leah Really. 00;09;06;20 - 00;09;21;29 Rachel Well Kaitlyn had a great plan to set a rat trap. So he thinks that he's pretty worried about Myles idol. So I guess Kaitlyn knows about the idol. It's hard to keep track of who knows about the idol and who doesn't, but I guess Kaitlyn knows. 00;09;21;29 - 00;09;23;52 Rachel He thinks that's going to come down to Myles versus Kate. 00;09;23;52 - 00;09;30;44 Rachel So he's like, if Myles plays his idol, then K goes home. If Myles plays his idol for Kate trying to send Kaitlyn home. Yeah. And Myles goes home. 00;09;30;44 - 00;09;31;02 Leah So 00;09;31;02 - 00;09;35;13 Leah yeah he's thinking. He was thinking I like Kaitlyn's plan. I thought it was a good plan. 00;09;35;17 - 00;09;50;43 Rachel Yeah. And then AJ says you know we're gonna have two votes on Myles. Gonna have two votes on Kate. Then we're going to revote on Kate. And it's just a lot of a lot of re votes allotted two on two splits. But it's interesting that AJ is gunning for Kate who he tried so hard to save last night. 00;09;50;54 - 00;09;54;43 Leah Well I think he's a postgraduate graduate. Must be loyal to them. 00;09;54;43 - 00;09;55;53 Matt Sticking to the four. 00;09;55;56 - 00;10;02;51 Leah Yeah, yeah. So I think them working together they said since the beginning right. So yeah. 00;10;02;51 - 00;10;05;48 Matt He spent every day with two days with Sara. 00;10;05;53 - 00;10;06;46 Leah Yeah. Yeah. 00;10;06;50 - 00;10;11;01 Rachel Do they really known each other. Yeah. Yeah. Like a month and a half together. That's crazy. 00;10;11;02 - 00;10;11;58 Matt Gosh. 00;10;12;03 - 00;10;14;16 Rachel No breaks to go to work and come back. 00;10;14;19 - 00;10;15;00 Leah Okay. Go to. 00;10;15;01 - 00;10;15;55 Matt Sleep. You can't. 00;10;16;06 - 00;10;17;11 Rachel Drive all the time and drive. 00;10;17;11 - 00;10;18;44 Matt In your car and listen to a podcast. 00;10;18;49 - 00;10;25;31 Rachel Well, it is nice to see that AJ has sort of finally left. Kate's a spell. You seem to really be, 00;10;25;31 - 00;10;35;00 Rachel you know, siding with her quite a bit on a lot of these votes. But it seems like for whatever reason, he has flipped a switch and he's no longer, trying to save Kate. He's actually looking to get her out. 00;10;35;00 - 00;10;50;33 Rachel then we see Zara say that she is, you know, obviously she's thinking about AJ, but she also doesn't want Kate to make it to the final three because as we know, Kate and Zara are both good at endurance. Right? And Zara needs to set herself up to win for that situation. 00;10;50;38 - 00;11;00;19 Leah And so you see Kate and Zara talking, right? Yeah. And Kate tells Zara that Miles told her to vote for Kaitlyn and Zara seems quite surprised. 00;11;00;19 - 00;11;08;11 Rachel Yeah, because Kate is following Myles and not AJ, which is not what you would have expected from Kate. So this really flips things around for Zara. 00;11;08;23 - 00;11;11;41 Matt Well, Myles also did give her kind of an ultimatum. You have no choice. 00;11;11;41 - 00;11;14;39 Leah Yeah he's not very nice and for sure you know. 00;11;14;44 - 00;11;18;42 Rachel That does seem to be his go to strategy to say well you've got to do my way. You have no choice. 00;11;18;49 - 00;11;20;54 Leah Well, I think it's funny that Zara became. 00;11;20;55 - 00;11;22;12 Matt Really vote for whoever she wants. 00;11;22;12 - 00;11;33;56 Leah Yeah, but Zara ends up being the swing vote. It looks like. Right. If Kate's going to go with Myles, then it looks like she Zara will figure out. 00;11;34;01 - 00;11;35;14 Rachel But yeah. So deciding. 00;11;35;14 - 00;11;36;36 Leah Oh sorry. Go ahead. 00;11;36;41 - 00;11;53;22 Rachel Susanna has figured out that all four players on the beach are voting for each other, so Kate's voting for Caitlin. Myles is voting for AJ, Kaitlyn's voting for Miles and is voting for Kate. So there's four people eligible to receive votes and they all have one accounted for. And Zara gets to be the deciding. 00;11;53;22 - 00;11;55;07 Leah Vote, right? I know right? 00;11;55;12 - 00;11;59;15 Matt A huge move for her that all just kind of like fell in line. 00;11;59;20 - 00;12;05;04 Leah Well I think the big thing also is that Kate is finally looking for an idol. 00;12;05;04 - 00;12;06;21 Rachel Next time. 00;12;06;25 - 00;12;09;22 Leah But Myles is filing her and, you know. 00;12;09;29 - 00;12;10;48 Matt Half heartedly it seems like. 00;12;10;48 - 00;12;14;10 Leah Yeah, but still we still. Oh, are you looking for an idol? Yeah. Yeah, 00;12;14;10 - 00;12;17;28 Rachel It is nice to see Kate finally taking our advice and writing. 00;12;17;28 - 00;12;18;26 Leah For the night. 00;12;18;31 - 00;12;21;47 Matt We're 48 hours and the end of the game. You gonna look for an idol now, right? 00;12;21;56 - 00;12;22;23 Leah Right. 00;12;22;25 - 00;12;23;36 Rachel Well, better late than never, 00;12;23;36 - 00;12;39;29 Rachel Well, it is interesting to kind of think about Zara's plan here, so I'm thinking, well, she knows that she needs a big move because she played a really good game pre merge directly after the merge. I think she did a really nice job, but lately she hasn't really been doing quite as much. 00;12;39;29 - 00;12;49;30 Rachel So if she were to get out AJ yeah that's huge for her resume. But what if she ends up sitting next to Max? That's really Miles's move. More so than Zara's move, right? 00;12;49;30 - 00;12;53;33 Matt Right. And she could end up sitting next to Kate and she doesn't want to do that. 00;12;53;38 - 00;13;01;07 Rachel Well, yeah. So Kate's a big competition, but it's the easy vote. It doesn't have a huge mark on her resume. 00;13;01;12 - 00;13;04;57 Leah Yes, but the brains are thinking, right. Yeah, yeah. 00;13;05;02 - 00;13;10;53 Rachel But I'm thinking if I were Zara, I think the best move is to target Myles at this point because 00;13;10;53 - 00;13;22;14 Rachel AJ is not her original move Myles you know Kaitlyn's already voting for him, but it doesn't seem like anyone else thinks he's going home. And he really wouldn't suspect it at this point. So I think that would have been a big move. 00;13;22;24 - 00;13;23;26 Leah But yeah, the idol. 00;13;23;40 - 00;13;32;00 Rachel He does have the idol, so she's got a lot of choices, but it's hard to pick out like an exact good choice for Zara at this point in the game. 00;13;32;05 - 00;13;40;22 Matt Right? I don't feel like we got that from Kate. From Zara that she should vote for Myles she didn't even, like, considered. It didn't seem like. 00;13;40;22 - 00;13;41;31 Leah No. 00;13;41;35 - 00;13;47;19 Matt And we don't know that she knows he has an idol. So it seems odd that that part was missing. 00;13;47;24 - 00;13;51;43 Leah Well, I thought it was interesting because then you see Myles and AJ sitting on the beach 00;13;51;43 - 00;13;56;40 Leah AJ says I don't trust you for a moment to Myles. 00;13;56;45 - 00;14;18;57 Rachel So this is kind of sad. It's like their final goodbye almost their final chat on the beach. And Myles is tearing up and yes National. And it was it was kind of bittersweet to think about all the times that those two have sat on the beach together scheming away. And now there's like this underlying current where it's like, well, you can't tell me your plan, but I hope you don't vote for me, right? 00;14;19;00 - 00;14;30;23 Rachel Oh, it is, and it's I don't know, I think it's every, duo seems to get to this point in the game, but it's always I mean, it's just interesting to see. It's kind of emotional to watch. 00;14;30;27 - 00;14;38;23 Leah Yeah. Right. Well, I think also AJ said, Kaitlyn will take me to the end. No one else will. So that's interesting. 00;14;38;23 - 00;14;44;52 Leah Yeah, he he thinks Kaitlyn is the only one who's going to take him to the end. And I think he must believe that he'll beat Kaitlyn. 00;14;44;57 - 00;14;45;52 Rachel No, I think he can. 00;14;45;52 - 00;14;47;11 Leah Yeah, I can. 00;14;47;11 - 00;14;54;27 Matt Yeah, but that's that's a good point because he's probably right. Everyone else knows he's a good player. So why would you take him? 00;14;54;32 - 00;14;55;01 Leah Yeah. 00;14;55;06 - 00;14;59;16 Matt Right. Don't you think everybody is going to take Kaitlyn? 00;14;59;21 - 00;15;01;40 Rachel Yeah, I guess it's hard to say. 00;15;01;45 - 00;15;03;58 Leah But there's more surprises at tribal. 00;15;03;58 - 00;15;05;48 Leah What about the jury? Oh, I just. 00;15;05;48 - 00;15;11;55 Rachel We saw that Morgan has left the game. She's opted not to sit on the jury, but actually to go home instead. 00;15;11;55 - 00;15;19;10 Leah I mean, she took someone's place. She did not play this game, and now she leaves. Yeah, I think that's a really bad. 00;15;19;16 - 00;15;20;15 Matt So disappointing. 00;15;20;15 - 00;15;20;44 Leah Yeah. 00;15;20;49 - 00;15;34;36 Rachel Yeah. I was thinking about, Do you guys remember Noonan from the beginning of the season? She loved. Yeah, the game of survivor. So much. It's palpable on the screen. And I was just thinking, you know, she would love to sit on the jury. She would I sure. You know, it's an honor. 00;15;34;36 - 00;15;39;17 Matt And I would have been so excited to be there and hearing their stories, seeing what's happening. Yeah. 00;15;39;22 - 00;16;01;16 Rachel Yeah, she was a good player on the jury. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, a huge honor to be on the jury because you get to stay in the final, sole survivor of your season. You get to decide who wins the game. And it's such a huge part of the game. It's the jury. And to leave, it's like at that point, you may as well just quit the game because you already are not seeing it through to the end. 00;16;01;20 - 00;16;03;48 Rachel And I was yeah, it's very disappointing to see this. 00;16;03;59 - 00;16;05;40 Leah It's very upsetting actually. 00;16;05;45 - 00;16;11;24 Rachel You know, a morgan's an Olympian. So we know that she's been dedicated to things in the past and you just don't, 00;16;11;24 - 00;16;16;38 Rachel you know, expect someone as an Olympian to be, you know, quitting a game in the middle of it. Really. 00;16;16;43 - 00;16;17;53 Leah And she doesn't seem. 00;16;17;53 - 00;16;24;58 Matt That upset that she was leaving. Right? It's not like, you know, I've worked so hard for this, and this is my dream, and now I'm going to get voted off. 00;16;24;59 - 00;16;31;52 Leah And maybe someone told her, hey, why don't you go on survivor? And she just did it, but really doesn't care about it. I mean, she just didn't seem to care. 00;16;31;52 - 00;16;38;07 Matt I have read that in American Survivor they do go after certain people. They approach people. 00;16;38;12 - 00;16;38;42 Leah Who don't even. 00;16;38;42 - 00;16;40;43 Matt Apply and say, hey, you would be good on. 00;16;40;43 - 00;16;42;51 Leah Survivor. Oh, really? Yeah. 00;16;42;56 - 00;16;48;11 Rachel So maybe she didn't. She may have never even watch the game. Maybe she doesn't even know how important the jury is. 00;16;48;25 - 00;16;52;48 Leah Well, I'm sorry, you just made a good point about Noonan. I wish she would have made it farther. 00;16;52;48 - 00;17;10;09 Rachel I know she was fine. You know, she was terrified. The game was passionate about it. Who understands the role of the jury, the responsibility. And, you know, this is altering the game to not have your vote at the end, playing, you know, giving a say into how the game ends. It alters the game. 00;17;10;13 - 00;17;14;12 Leah Right. And Kate probably was pretty disappointed to not see her. 00;17;14;12 - 00;17;14;40 Rachel Yeah. 00;17;14;40 - 00;17;17;11 Matt Yeah. Especially if she was hoping for a vote from her. 00;17;17;11 - 00;17;17;59 Leah Yeah. So yeah. 00;17;17;59 - 00;17;19;48 Leah So that was crazy. 00;17;19;53 - 00;17;23;01 Rachel Yeah. So very disappointing. Interesting that, 00;17;23;01 - 00;17;31;52 Rachel think it was Ben at the beginning of the season, quit kind of unexpectedly from the brains, from tribe and, Morgan from the brawn tribe. Right. So it's. 00;17;31;52 - 00;17;32;59 Matt Season. 00;17;33;04 - 00;17;42;39 Rachel And it's not looking good for brains versus brawn. It looks like the bronze are quitting. They're not making it as far in the game. It's right. Looking like the brains are victorious overall. 00;17;42;41 - 00;17;50;40 Matt And I wonder if the four brains. I wonder what the reaction was when they heard that Morgan wasn't there. Probably like good. 00;17;50;45 - 00;17;53;26 Leah Yeah, because Morgan didn't like any of them. Right. 00;17;53;31 - 00;18;08;52 Rachel Yeah. I wonder if it even changed Zara's. I mean, I don't think it did, but I wonder if it made Zara reconsider her vote, knowing that if she were to sit next to Kate, she would not have that guaranteed vote for Morgan. 00;18;08;57 - 00;18;11;11 Leah I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. 00;18;11;16 - 00;18;16;05 Rachel Well, probably not, because, the tribal they're discussing, 00;18;16;05 - 00;18;21;52 Rachel you know, when to make a big move is it time to turn on the core four? It's going to be so awkward for. 00;18;21;53 - 00;18;22;57 Matt Bell to get awkward. 00;18;22;57 - 00;18;28;02 Rachel And when is it time to make your last big move, or, you know, one of your last big moves? 00;18;28;11 - 00;18;50;32 Leah Well, I like it that they showed us everyone but Sara. Their votes. So AJ voted for Kate, Kaitlyn voted for Myles. So that was weird because AJ was supposed to vote for Myles mapper, but I guess he just couldn't do it. Kate voted for Kaitlyn as Myles told her to do and Myles voted for AJ. So now all of them have a vote so we don't know if she's great, who Zara's going to pick. 00;18;50;32 - 00;18;52;40 Leah And that was very, very interesting. 00;18;52;45 - 00;19;00;12 Matt So it worked out perfectly for the producers. Yes, let's do it this way. I was like, yes, we knew what was going to happen up until the last vote. 00;19;00;17 - 00;19;01;56 Leah Yeah, that was really good. 00;19;02;01 - 00;19;05;13 Rachel But before they could read the votes, we had another twist. 00;19;05;13 - 00;19;10;01 Rachel Number four Myles plays idol number four for himself. 00;19;10;05 - 00;19;11;59 Matt And the jury is just like, 00;19;12;04 - 00;19;14;10 Leah Yeah. Thank you. Nothing like it was. 00;19;14;19 - 00;19;22;48 Rachel Yeah. Four idols. That's wild. And, you know, I mean Myles would be the one to ask, but there's got to be close to a record to play for. 00;19;22;48 - 00;19;26;03 Leah I was right, I went Indian. Oh yeah. That was awesome. 00;19;26;03 - 00;19;28;38 Matt That would have been funny if he would have said that. I believe this is a record. 00;19;28;53 - 00;19;35;58 Leah If anybody knows what the record is for how many idols a player? Yeah, yeah. Please let us know. Yeah. 00;19;36;03 - 00;19;46;37 Rachel All right. Yeah. So he played three correctly so far. This last one was incorrect. But that's okay. It's the last chance to play it. May as well and save himself just to be sure. 00;19;46;39 - 00;19;50;22 Matt Right. Well that would have been pretty bad to play it for Kate. And then he goes home, right? 00;19;50;22 - 00;19;50;47 Leah Yeah. 00;19;50;47 - 00;19;57;38 Rachel So we get down to it. And the very first vote out of the urn is for Myles. Does not count. Then the jury was shocked. 00;19;57;42 - 00;19;59;04 Leah Yeah. They were. 00;19;59;04 - 00;20;09;01 Rachel And then as we knew it was going to happen everyone got a vote. And there's one more vote. And at this point I'm thinking oh it's got to be AJ you know. Oh this is so sad. Here it goes H. 00;20;09;03 - 00;20;10;04 Leah Yes I'm thinking. 00;20;10;04 - 00;20;12;15 Matt It's going to be Myles and there's going to be a revote. 00;20;12;21 - 00;20;15;40 Leah Oh I doubt it's going to be AJ I was so scared because I don't want AJ that. 00;20;15;55 - 00;20;21;44 Matt People couldn't vote. So Myles would have been able to vote. Yeah Zoro would have been able to vote. 00;20;22;33 - 00;20;23;52 Rachel That would've been interesting to see. 00;20;23;52 - 00;20;24;53 Leah The exciting to see. 00;20;24;53 - 00;20;26;10 Rachel Oh, that would've been good, right? 00;20;26;10 - 00;20;26;19 Leah Yeah. 00;20;26;19 - 00;20;29;11 Matt And then if they couldn't agree on it. 00;20;29;16 - 00;20;29;41 Leah Yeah. 00;20;29;41 - 00;20;35;41 Rachel Well, it came down to Kate, I was shocked. I really was not expecting Kate to go home tonight. 00;20;35;54 - 00;20;55;21 Leah I know that, Zara has not wanted Kate the game because for it since the beginning, it seems like they do it since they were together. But, I was surprised. But did you see the big surprise from The Graduate? They were just like, whoa, AJ, I mean, it looked like none of them could believe that Kate was going home. 00;20;55;21 - 00;20;57;25 Leah So they were very, very surprised. 00;20;57;27 - 00;21;02;42 Matt AJ was quite surprised to get a vote. Yeah. He asked Myles, would you vote for. 00;21;02;47 - 00;21;03;37 Leah Yeah, yeah. 00;21;03;38 - 00;21;05;28 Matt File says you. 00;21;05;33 - 00;21;31;23 Leah Me yeah. So as I predicted, if this fails, there's going to be a lot of trouble. So and I think that's what's going to happen. But the interesting thing is the postgraduates and the brains are still here. So now the no bronze, they're all gone. So, just like Haley and King George. Two brains. Yeah. They're, you know, who knows who these four will end up being the two, but they're going to be brains. 00;21;31;23 - 00;21;32;47 Leah So. Yeah. 00;21;32;55 - 00;21;36;23 Matt Interesting. I think it looks in the previews. It looks awkward for me. 00;21;36;23 - 00;21;37;08 Leah It does. 00;21;37;13 - 00;21;39;25 Rachel Oh yeah. He's in a bad spot. 00;21;39;30 - 00;21;51;06 Leah But it's always funny going back to the beginning. You look at the players who like the Bryan have to win. I mean there's no way the brains are going to win. But here the muscles, right? 00;21;51;11 - 00;21;53;13 Matt Everybody's got a great body right. 00;21;53;18 - 00;22;00;12 Rachel Well thinking back to our initial predictions. So Matt you chose Myles. So it's looking like he's doing pretty well. 00;22;00;12 - 00;22;01;06 Leah Yeah. 00;22;01;11 - 00;22;02;32 Matt He's final four. 00;22;02;37 - 00;22;03;08 Leah Yeah. 00;22;03;20 - 00;22;05;08 Matt Hopefully further than that Morgan. 00;22;05;08 - 00;22;18;16 Rachel Yeah you chose Morgan. But I just point out yeah yeah. So that wasn't what you expected now. And I chose Karen. Of course. The only one of the graduates to be sitting on the jury and not in the Final Four. 00;22;18;20 - 00;22;19;32 Matt She's in the jury. 00;22;19;37 - 00;22;20;11 Leah Yeah, she's. 00;22;20;11 - 00;22;20;42 Rachel In the jury. 00;22;20;42 - 00;22;41;44 Leah But she was a very good player. She should be right there. Actually, when I think about it, I know Zara has done quite well, but I think Karen was more active in her gameplay. She was more like Myles in AJ. I think that's right. So I, I though Zara deserves to be where she is. I think it would be or AJ or Myles or Kaitlyn. 00;22;41;58 - 00;22;50;20 Leah I think it would be nice if Karen was up there also. I don't know who who she would replace. I'm just saying I think she should be up there because she was a good player. 00;22;50;20 - 00;22;50;58 Leah Yeah. 00;22;50;58 - 00;22;58;19 Rachel Well, it's been an interesting season and it's not over yet. I cannot wait for Sunday to see what's going to happen. 00;22;58;19 - 00;22;58;51 Leah Oh, boy. 00;22;58;51 - 00;22;59;21 Rachel Hey, Jim. 00;22;59;33 - 00;23;01;13 Leah I I'm sorry. 00;23;01;17 - 00;23;17;05 Rachel I think I'll go ahead. You know, if AJ would have gone home tonight, I think after the game they could have repaired things and said, you know, oh it's part of the game. Not a big deal. But now that he didn't go home this is really going to blow up. They're going to be are you are they going to be able to recover? 00;23;17;05 - 00;23;20;37 Rachel I don't think AJ is going to see it as just game play anymore. 00;23;20;48 - 00;23;28;23 Matt Right. And hopefully they come back at night. I mean, hopefully they show us more of what happens as soon as they get back to camp instead of when the sun comes up. 00;23;28;23 - 00;23;30;46 Leah I yeah, I think they will. I hope they, I think they will. 00;23;30;50 - 00;23;34;06 Matt But anyway, I hope you guys continue to help me support Myles. 00;23;34;06 - 00;23;34;42 Leah Sorry, 00;23;34;42 - 00;23;37;32 Leah I'm not supporting Myles. Sorry. Oh, jeez. 00;23;37;32 - 00;23;50;47 Rachel I think I would say Miles deserves to win out of all five of these. I think I'm rooting for Myles to win at this point or at all for players left because he I mean he played for idols. He has a crazy story. 00;23;50;47 - 00;23;51;30 Leah What you guys have. 00;23;51;32 - 00;23;59;02 Rachel Really doing very well. And I think he deserves the title of Sole Survivor. If he can get himself to the final two, which is going to be tough. 00;23;59;04 - 00;24;02;27 Leah But what about AJ? I guess AJ didn't play as much as Myles. 00;24;02;29 - 00;24;05;29 Matt What about Kaitlyn winning all the immunity. Yeah you know. 00;24;05;34 - 00;24;06;41 Leah And Zara still. 00;24;06;46 - 00;24;20;15 Rachel Saying yeah. The great thing about this Final Four is that everyone has a chance of winning and everyone deserves their spot here. We've seen a lot of seasons where someone's dragged along and it's not that fun, but I think this is a great final four. 00;24;20;15 - 00;24;22;33 Leah Yes, I agree is a separate car. 00;24;22;37 - 00;24;25;31 Matt I can't wait till Sunday to see what happens. 00;24;25;35 - 00;24;46;20 Rachel Yeah. So let us know what you think about this Final Four. Do you feel that everyone deserves to be there? And who do you think will be the sole survivor out of the postgraduates? Let us know on Instagram at survivor, TikTok at survivor and send us an email at eight. Australian Survivor at gmail.com. Thanks and we'll see you next week. 00;24;46;20 - 00;24;46;50 Leah Bye bye. 00;24;46;50 - 00;24;47;23 Matt Bye.  

 Energy and Industrials Tech Pa...s NY Tech Summit Feb25, 2025Sat, Mar 01, 2025 10:53PM • 26:59SUMMARY KEYWORDSAutomotive industry, automation, manufacturing jobs, human error, North American trade, energy transition, clean tech, renewable energy, low carbon gasoline, sustainable aviation fuel, methanol, nuclear power, electrical grid, AI in education, family offices.SPEAKERSAlex Zhuk, Eddy van der Paardt, Carl Pro, Matthew Friedman, Brian Neirby, Mark Sanor, Greg Licciardi Mark Sanor  00:00Now we're gonna second to last. Matthew's already on. He's transforming in the automotive industry. I've asked Eddie someone find Eddie Carl, so Industrial Tech, energy tech, Eddie ready. Always, always. I love that. We're gonna play ping pong. We're gonna put on a demo right now. Eddie was amazing. And I have to, like, say i We've yet to lose a match, and last night was just but like in life us, most important thing you can do is choose your partner. And I got Eddie. So why? Since you're on Zoom, Matthew, tell us how technology is transforming the automotive industry, if you could. And then we'll go on to the others, Matthew Friedman  01:02yeah, so, I mean, I'm a living, breathing example. With the work force becoming increasingly transient and particularly easy in manufacturing jobs, it's becoming very difficult to offer a very reasonable hourly wage and good benefit to get people that come in and want to establish a career in manufacturing. So automation is becoming all that much more important, not just from the you know, operational side, but from a quality and in Section side of things. So the visual in session component is critical. We are being not just asked, but effectively mandated, to invest more and more in capital so that there's as little human interaction with our process as possible, because as much individual human interaction as there is that still needs whatever minuscule percent of human error in place. And all you're doing is putting in 100% 200% 300% inspection to assure that bad parts are not getting out. It really doesn't make a difference, because especially with the important and huge critical parts that we're manufacturing, if there's one part that gets out, even if it's one part in a million, it creates a heck of a stir. So what I would say technology for us is finding a way to not just better design and engineer parts up front, but it's more derived at the process themselves. How can we eliminate as much of the human element out of the process? Mark Sanor  02:39So that begs lots of questions, but one of which, what about your competitors? What are you seeing on the competitive landscape and Matthew Friedman  02:45technology? So it's pretty much all the same. I mean, every time we go to a company to help provide us with a potential automation solution, we find out that our competitors on the same programs have already contacted us. So it's all the same. I mean, you know, the other thing that bears mentioning is that with what's going on, kind of, within the North American trade supply chain, is that other companies had gone down to Mexico to try and rely a little bit more upon the labor side of things, both from a pricing and you know, your standard hourly worker in Mexico tended to have a much better work ethic, tended to care a lot more about their job and take pride in their job and be more careful with with the, you know, the actions that are being contemplated by the current administration that bringing a big pressure in a lot of those companies that have moved down to next door are now looking to be short back Mark Sanor  03:44to the US. So who's providing the technology for you? You're talking about? Matthew Friedman  03:49We've got probably, you know, 10 to 15 different vendors in the Midwest. We're based here in Cleveland, Ohio. There's a number of companies here in Ohio. They're doing that. We have a number of companies in Michigan that are critical for that. The big impact on us we feel in very sophisticated, you know, heavy gage, very highly engineered products. When you see the Super Bowl commercial GM pick up that's pulling a space shut all up a rocky cliff, those are our parts that are very carefully designed to do that. But really, right now, the only company that's capable of doing that is a Canadian coup bill, and as a result of the contemplated tariffs that are going on right now, we're looking for alternative sources in the US to be able to provide that capability. We get to find it even, by the way, for this company's US based and Ohio based operations, just that are not equipped to do the same level of process. Mark Sanor  04:48Gotcha, maybe I'll turn it over to you. Ed, bigger picture, because you've been looking at this whole landscape. So yeah, Eddy van der Paardt  04:57maybe the own button. First of all, congratulations to Matt So, so just full circle, we visited his plant, I think, four years ago, and at the time, it was half the size and double the trouble. So, so you've come a long way, my friend and I wish you all the best. Is really interesting to see the company at the time, and it's really amazing to see how you've grown, how you've managed to escape all the problems and come out much better at agile and now on the way to become a massive success. Mark Sanor  05:31But unlike you, Eddie, he was my partner in pick up ball, and we couldn't beat Barbara, right? She's our champion over there, pickleball, silent Eddy van der Paardt  05:39kill her. Mark Sanor  05:41She did not cheat. She picked a better partner, apparently, better athlete. Eddy van der Paardt  05:45I think, I think she's a life long athlete, and we just pretend to Mark Sanor  05:49be one. That's over to you. Eddie, Eddy van der Paardt  05:54so what do you want me to talk about? Mark, Mark Sanor  05:58this is energy and Industrial Tech. This is what you live for, yeah. So I want an instance, an insight, or what scares it excites you, or both? Yeah. Eddy van der Paardt  06:07So, so here there's a couple what scares me in terms of, and let me first do, to do a two second background thing. So I'm sort of aware two hats with one hat I'm investing across the across the value chain, across the asset classes for a family office. And we're sort of agnostic the other hat, which is more relevant hat, is the the hat where we invest in, essentially clean tech, agri tech, and energy transition. And so in that space, we invest, typically in early stage break through technologies that could meaningfully contribute to the decarbonization of the world. And that's a super exciting arena for a number of reasons. One this will, this is not a one and done problem. This, unfortunately will for the next several decades at a minimum, before the so called AI solves all our problems, we we will have to sort of cope with the consequences of climate change, whether we believe it or not, and and have to mitigate and adapt. And in terms of energy, we have to create significantly more energy rather than less, because the way we set up, our world increasingly demands more energy and and that more energy, hopefully can be drawn from mostly renewable resources. We've come a long way, and that's the part where stuff excites me. There's a very significant percentage of that energy already in wind and solar who are now mature, respected, sort of EBITDA positive technologies. But as a venture investor, I'm not investing in these because they deliver sort of, you know, mid, low digit return. So that's not very interesting to me. So we, we are particularly interested in investing in sort of local carbon alternatives for technologies that are up and coming. So for example, low carbon gasoline, we know EVs are eventually, hopefully, what's, what saves our transport needs. But only 3% of the world is, is EV and over the next 25 years, it's a massive curve to climb, and therefore, there always be need for, you know, internal combustible engine cars. Luckily, otherwise, Matt will be out of a business park. Mark Sanor  08:39He he can, he can build Eddy van der Paardt  08:43for so, so low Mark Sanor  08:46carb fuel company going, Eddy van der Paardt  08:50yeah, so So with 361 or as a result of an introduction from 361 we invested in a company called Naro, which had two massive pivots, one, from low carbon gasoline to soft sustainable aviation fuel, and then from soft to methanol. Methanol is going to be preferred fuel for shipping. Going forward, there's massive amounts of CO two emissions by shippers, and they need particularly driven by European regulations, look for new alternatives that are lower emissions. And those are, you know, either LNG or methanol. Methanol is very big up and coming sort of fuel, transport fuel, and they're going to be the first large one point M, 1.9 M ton ethanol plant in the states that deliver sort of the CI score that you want. Mark Sanor  09:53When does it come online? Eddy van der Paardt  09:57There's, there's so. So what I'm excited about this if. Investing in those technologies. And the interesting thing in that space is that there's very few sort of, let's say, you know, Silicon Valley type venture firms investing in this, because it's all real assets, cap, ex, intensive stuff. And people, a lot of people, a lot of venture has to shy away from that Mark Sanor  10:20well, that segue to Carl. And I know you've also looked at paralysis, Eddy van der Paardt  10:24we have an investment in a paralysis company as well. Over to Carl Pro  10:30you, yeah, I'm probably the only non financial person around here. I'm a nuclear engineer, so I'm familiar with everything from new plants, from the Navy side, the small, what I call the Corvette plants, to the big, 1200 megawatt plants that we built. Also did the combustion turbines, wind mills, solar panels, and did a little stint as a power broker bought and sold electricity in California. And what scares me is the fact that everybody looks at power generation, and if you're looking at data centers, there's they're looking for a place to find some power, and now you're seeing they're starting up Three Mile Island. They're starting up another nuclear plant that was in Michigan, that was called that was closed down, and those are 600 mega watt plants. I mean, you're pulling a lot of power, and they're locating them there because they can't move it. When I was in California, I couldn't move power from the north of California to the south of California, because when you look at those transmission lines, you got to go through switch charts, and you got to buy space in that switch chart, and there is no space. So California can't move power from up north, where it's real cheap, down south, where it's real expensive. So that's the other thing is, you know, and then solar and wind. I didn't buy any solar wind power, because the risk mitigation of that is you have to back that up. If you have a sunny day and it's real hot and your windmill doesn't turn and you're supposed to put 100 megawatts on the grid, you got to go buy it on the spot market. You'll probably go bankrupt unless you've bought a contract. So everything that you buy in renewable energies, you have another back up power contract, a tape contract to cover that. So nobody is looking at the US transmission system really hard. The voltages are all different. Some interconnects don't work. Cross state lines. There are breakers that never have Mark Sanor  12:49all right. Carl, I'm giving you as much money as you want. You're, you're the equivalent of Doge, you can, you can, you can make this change. What will you do? Carl Pro  12:58I think there needs to be a national effort similar to the Federal Highway plans, where they did the interstates, that they go out and do that same thing with electrical distribution grid, standardize it around the country and upgrade it. So the one, it's EMP design, so you know, you don't get shut down by somebody putting off a small, inexpensive EMP weapon in the back of a van. The other thing I worry about is the gene pool, and I use this because we built a plant in Mississippi. In Mississippi, the smart kids go to the oil field who you have left are not the sharpest tools in the shed. So I always said this, this gene pool is very shallow. Our schools really suck, and we've got to lift those all up by their bootstraps and get them all better. Don't know how you do it. Yep. My wife was a school teacher. She retired, and she worked in a school where it was the school of last resort. Those kids had been thrown out of every public school in the Pittsburgh area and every private school, and they had, they were taking them on there. Brian Neirby  14:14Brian, so I appreciate the background on this. I been doing quite a bit of research in this space, and just recently invested in a direct to chip water cooled, containerized data, you know, mobile data center unit out of Vienna, Austria, and bringing it to North America and other parts of the world. I'm curious, in this research, you mentioned nuclear power, and in doing that work, I read a study that you're 19 years out before that really becomes life. I don't know if that's fact or fiction. You mentioned 600 megawatts, and from what I've understand, it takes 20 million in capital stand up one megawatt, and then two years of dealing with cities and. Land and blah, blah, blah, then you got hydro power. So you've got these huge demands on AI, got huge demands on the grid, like, how do we how do we account for all this with all these different delivery models to provide data center capacity to these technologies? Carl Pro  15:19I can tell you, the strategy that I looking at, because I'm trying to protect what we're doing, is that I'm looking at every coal mine and every steel mill that is shut down, and every coal fired power plant, because when they demolish them, they leave the switch yards there. Those properties are worth 10s of millions of dollars, and they're just sitting there, and I'm looking to pick up a couple of them just to hold on to. Alex Zhuk  15:47I have a lot of questions. So Ed, you have a question for you, but you just be so I'm gonna ask you first, with regards to the brown fields, which I'm assuming we refer to, I totally agree. I think that's the relatively low hanging fruit. Do you, from your experience, think that's already sat shrewd, meaning that's a strategy already. Of the big ones have gone out and bought up all the steel mills, coal plants, factories, etc. Carl Pro  16:14No, there's still a lot available. If you focus in on on the coal mine areas. That's why there's so many battery plants being built in the southern Panhandle of Ohio, in West Virginia, because the power is there. But in my neighborhood of Pittsburgh, there's four really sweet sites that had power plants on them that Alex Zhuk  16:37yeah, so completely. Thank you. And then Adi, so to give you just two minute context, the company I may have introduced previously as an a tech company, but we raise capital from Microsoft because we are turning agricultural soils into a carbon sink. And I completely agree with you, actually everything you said, including the capital stack and what many term as the value of death, which, for those who aren't aware, is essentially when a company has raised venture for equity, has de risk completely the technology, but needs to build a factory, or, first of a kind, physical facility, and it's very expensive to do so, and the two options they're left with is either raise so much venture capital that there's nothing left of the company or go to a bank, but not bankable yet, because it's the first of the client facility. And so what you seeing is many companies dying, even though they are building solutions that are needed for the world and also have been de risked. I've been also advising family offices on the climate side, because I believe families can play a very pivot role in this, because they're structurally more flexible. I'm just curious how you're thinking about this, and if you you know generally, what are your thoughts Eddy van der Paardt  17:53on this? Well, it's interesting you te this up, and we didn't, we didn't play ping pong yesterday, or did we compare notes? So we're actually looking at probably raising some type of platform or fund to from family office to provide that capital, because it's not coming from a venture world, and for the right reasons, it's not coming from the infrastructure world yet either, because it's, it's, it is bankable, but only if you have enough equity. And the equity is not coming from that piece of equity is not coming from the infrastructure guys, although Mark Sanor  18:23they they could cross over a little bit, they are. They Eddy van der Paardt  18:25can cross over a little bit for fid capital Right, right before you make the decision to put a billion dollars of steel into the into the ground. And we're looking at a number of investments where we invested in that are looking for either hundreds of millions of a bill or a billion plus more, and it's not coming from the IRA anymore, because that's not killed as well. So where do you go? Well, well, that little piece of capital, which is, no, it's not a little maybe 10 million, 40 million, something like that, right? Is a perfect sort of play for family officers who like to have the risk. Sort of risk sort of risk reward structure is very significant that can come in the form from of a convertible which we did, which we did number of times, where you basically, as a downside protection, have the ownership of the technology and the assets that are there as a collateral, and that can be a digital twin of the plant, etc, etc, etc. And a technology as down side protection, as upside you have, sort of a convertible into the equity round the moment infrastructure partner will invest, which comes with a significant upscaling of the value, plus a, you know, I would say market is now mid teen to high teen return on your on your money, and it's also short term duration, so it's typically 12 to 18 months time in between. Sort of a you have the value of death starting, and your fid starting, and there. And there are a number of of companies to your point, that are stuck in this position. Great technology. Good team raised a bunch of capital from well known investors and cannot move forward, which is obviously also from, like, an A from like, you know, a global perspective, a shame, right? Because these technologies are working, and they've been proven to work yet they just, you need capital to scale up. And so, so I think there's, a lot of work to be done. There's a lot of work to be done by by sort of somehow syndicating, even 361 can play a significant role there. Syndicating this with family offices. Number of them take the lead, fed it out, write the memo, and others join. And I think family office type capital, which is relatively more flexible always, than institutional capital, in many ways, can play a lead role there. Greg Licciardi  20:53I would just add that the your comments on education and the need for improving. I think AI will actually help that and is helping that greatly. I teach at Fordham and Seton Hall, and we're taking all types of master classes on how to elevate our teaching using AI, and it's pretty cool stuff, and it's making education more accessible and tutoring more accessible to more students. And Mike, my kids have tutors, but a lot of families can afford tutors. But now with AI, they can. It's it's pretty cool. Mark Sanor  21:31And we have another company blueprint for kids, which is doing this very Carl Pro  21:34interesting project years ago, and in this kind of dates myself, but it's probably 20 years ago. We did a AI training platform for the Air Force, and you basically put this little ball cap on your head, and it presented material to you, and when you understood it, your brain waves did a shift. And if you didn't understand it, it kept presenting it in a different manner. So it was, Mark Sanor  21:58why don't we bring that to our children? That's pretty cool. Seriously, why? I mean, I know that in war time and in defense, which is going to be the next panel, we come up with lots of innovations. But why is that not trickling down? Carl Pro  22:14It just cuts that on the shelf, and the Air Force now uses it. Well, why Mark Sanor  22:19don't you and I go find that? Let's get that too. Yeah, no, let's, let's buy it first, and then we'll figure out to do Matthew TED talk on that. Matthew Friedman, do any, any, any wrap up thoughts on your, your, your part of the world? Matthew Friedman  22:39Yeah? So sure. I mean, like, what I was saying is, there's great opportunity, there's great unknown. The opportunity excited. There's a lot of people that are going to, not going to make it through this shake out. I would say, you know, a testament to my staff and I that, as any graciously mentioned, we've, we've made it through the very interesting roller coaster ride over the last six, seven years of, you know, strikes and COVID and tariffs and whatever, and so it's going to remain to be seen with the shake of it, but I think companies like myself that are nibble and are able to adapt to the changing environment is going to be critical. I think automation, as we discussed earlier, is also going to be critical, the more we can do to rely less upon Mark Sanor  23:34the ele Brian Neirby  23:36no drink it over Mark Sanor  23:41there you can get now. Matthew Friedman  23:43Point, but you know that's gonna cook you a lot of jobs, but it was necessary in the current automation environment for auto mode. Mark Sanor  23:54Excellent. Any last comments from the crowd or panel? You know it's not about technology, but I know you've got plants in Canada, Mexico. We got tariffs going in, going out, turn on, turn off. How you managing that? Matthew Friedman  24:18Well, I mean, the answer is, we were looking at it both as a whole additional because we're looking can move production from one place to the other, we're doing it. The key is, you know, we're only in Canada. We're only in Mexico, not because we're bringing in parts from other places. Alex Zhuk  24:40I Hi, Don. So that's so what 24:49happens in between on the slide then Austin morning? Mark Sanor  25:14Go, Yeah, how's it been going? Matthew Friedman  25:22All as definitely, line production, contact the US. It will adapt accordingly. Well, position new things on the tariff side of things. Again, what we're seeing is with the delays, right? Originally was supposed to be, you know, February, then it was going to be March, and now sometime in April that they're going to take effect. And it's definitely caused the leaders of both Canada and Mexico to respond and do things accordingly, mostly in the fight against alleged drug trafficking and importation in the US. So if those companies, I think rice occasion like that, while they shined them and done in particular Mexico, then I think they will see a little bit less of aggression on the terror front. Mark Sanor  26:10Fair enough. All right. Well, for a moment I didn't think we'd have our panelists for the last panel, but they suddenly appeared. Gator has invested in Dan's company, so it's a good they didn't even know that each other would be here today. So that's great. Sara, I don't think is going to make it, but I know the ELA has a a dual use fund as well. So let's just first. Thank Eddie, thank Carl. Thank Matthew, I'm joined our 361 firm community of investors and thought leaders. We have a lot of events created by the community as we collaborate on investments and philanthropic interests. Join us. You. You can subscribe to various 361 events and content at https://361firm.com/subs. For reference: Web: www.361firm.com/homeOnboard as Investor: https://361.pub/shortdiagOnboard Deals 361: www.361firm.com/onbOnboard as Banker: www.361firm.com/bankersEvents: www.361firm.com/eventsContent: www.youtube.com/361firmWeekly Digests: www.361firm.com/digest

Pharmacogenomics plays a critical role in personalised medicine, as some adverse drug reactions are genetically determined. Adverse drugs reactions (ADRs) account for 6.5% of hospital admissions in the UK, and the application of pharmacogenomics to look at an individuals response to drugs can significantly enhance patient outcomes and safety. In this episode, our guests discuss how genomic testing can identify patients who will respond to medications and those who may have adverse reactions. We hear more about Genomics England's collaboration with the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency in the Yellow Card Biobank and our guests discuss the challenges of implementing pharmacogenomics into the healthcare system. Our host Vivienne Parry, Head of Public Engagement at Genomics England, is joined by Anita Hanson, Research Matron and the Lead Research Nurse for clinical pharmacology at Liverpool University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, and Professor Bill Newman, Professor of translational genomic medicine at the Manchester Center for Genomic Medicine, and Professor Matt Brown, Chief Scientific Officer at Genomics England.   "I think we're moving to a place where, rather than just doing that one test that might be relevant to one drug, we'd be able to do a test which at the same price would generate information that could be relevant at further points in your life if you were requiring different types of medicine. So, that information would then be available in your hospital record, in your GP record, that you could have access to it yourself. And then I think ultimately what we would really love to get to a point is where everybody across the whole population just has that information to hand when it's required, so that they're not waiting for the results of a genetic test, it's immediately within their healthcare record."   To learn more about Jane's lived experience with Stevens-Johnson syndrome, visit The Academy of Medical Sciences' (AMS) YouTube channel. The story, co-produced by Areeba Hanif from AMS, provides an in-depth look at Jane's journey. You can watch the video via this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4KJtDZJyaA  Want to learn more about personalised medicine? Listen to our Genomics 101 episode where Professor Matt Brown explains what it is in less than 5 minutes: https://www.genomicsengland.co.uk/podcasts/genomics-101-what-is-personalised-medicine  You can read the transcript below or download it here: https://www.genomicsengland.co.uk/assets/documents/Podcast-transcripts/Can-genomic-testing-prevent-adverse-drug-reactions.docx   Vivienne: Hello and welcome to Behind the Genes.  Bill: What we've seen is that the limited adoption so far in the UK and other countries has focused particularly on severe adverse drug reactions. They've been easier to identify and there's a clear relationship between some drugs and some genetic changes where that information is useful. So, a good example has been the recent adoption of pharmacogenetic testing for a gene called DPYD for patients undergoing cancer treatment, particularly breast and bowel cancer. And if you have an absence of the enzyme that that gene makes, if you're given that treatment, then you can end up on intensive care and die, so it's a really significant side effect. But as you say, the most common side effects aren't necessarily fatal, but they can have a huge impact upon people and on their wellbeing.  Vivienne: My name's Vivienne Parry and I'm head of public engagement at Genomics England, and today we'll be discussing the critical role of pharmacogenomics in personalised medicine, highlighting its impact on how well medicines work, their safety, and on patient care. I'm joined today by Professor Bill Newman, professor of translational genomic medicine at the Manchester Centre for Genomic Medicine, Anita Hanson, research matron, a fabulous title, and lead research nurse for clinical pharmacology at the Liverpool University Hospital's NHS Foundation Trust, and Professor Matt Brown, chief scientific officer for Genomics England. And just remember, if you enjoy today's episode, we'd love your support, so please like, share and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts.  So, first question to you, Bill, what is pharmacogenomics?  Bill: Thanks Viv. I think there are lots of different definitions, but how I think of pharmacogenetics is by using genetic information to inform how we prescribe drugs, so that they can be safer and more effective. And we're talking about genetic changes that are passed down through families, so these are changes that are found in lots of individuals. We all carry changes in our genes that are important in how we transform and metabolise medicines, and how our bodies respond to them.  Vivienne: Now, you said pharmacogenetics. Is it one of those medicine things like tomato, tomato, or is there a real difference between pharmacogenetics and pharmacogenomics?  Bill: So, people, as you can imagine, do get quite irate about this sort of thing, and there are lots of people that would contest that there is a really big important difference. I suppose that pharmacogenetics is more when you're looking at single changes in a relatively small number of genes, whereas pharmacogenomics is a broader definition, which can involve looking at the whole genome, lots of genes, and also whether those genes are switched on or switched off, so the expression levels of those genes as well would encompass pharmacogenomics. But ultimately it's using genetic information to make drug prescription safer and more effective.  Vivienne: So, we're going to call it pharmacogenomics and we're talking about everything, that's it, we'll go for it. So Matt, just explain if you would the link between pharmacogenomics and personalised medicine. And I know that you've done a big Genomics 101 episode about personalised medicine, but just very briefly, what's the link between the two?  Matt: So, personalised medicine's about using the right dose of the right drug for the right individual. And so pharmacogenomics helps you with not only ensuring that you give a medication which doesn't cause problems for the person who receives it, so an adverse drug reaction, but also that they're actually getting the right dose. Of course, people's ability to metabolise, activate and respond to drugs genetically is often genetically determined, and so sometimes you need to adjust the dose up or down according to a person's genetic background.  Vivienne: Now, one of the things that we've become very aware of is adverse drug reactions, and I think they account for something like six and a half percent of all hospital admissions in the UK, so it's absolutely huge. Is that genetically determined adverse drug reactions?  Matt: So, the answer to that is we believe so. There's quite a bit of data to show that you can reduce the risk of people needing a hospital admission by screening genetic markers, and a lot of the very severe reactions that lead to people being admitted to hospital are very strongly genetically determined. So for example, there are HLA types that affect the risk of adverse drug reactions to commonly used medications for gout, for epilepsy, some HIV medications and so on, where in many health services around the world, including in England, there are already tests available to help prevent those leading to severe reactions. It's likely though that actually the tests we have available only represent a small fraction of the total preventable adverse drug reactions were we to have a formal pre-emptive pharmacogenomics screening programme.  Vivienne: Now, I should say that not all adverse drug reactions are genetic in origin. I mean, I remember a rather nasty incident on the night when I got my exam results for my finals, and I'd actually had a big bee sting and I'd been prescribed antihistamines, and I went out and I drank rather a lot to celebrate, and oh my goodness me, I was rather ill [laughter]. So, you know, not all adverse drug reactions are genetic in origin. There are other things that interact as well, just to make that clear to people.  Matt: Yes, I think that's more an interaction than an adverse drug reaction. In fact frankly, the most common adverse drug reaction in hospitals is probably through excess amounts of water, and that's not medically determined, that's the prescription.  Vivienne: Let me now come to Anita. So, you talk to patients all the time about pharmacogenomics in your role. You've been very much involved in patient and public involvement groups at the Wolfson Centre for Personalised Medicine in Liverpool. What do patients think about pharmacogenomics? Is it something they welcome?  Anita: I think they do welcome pharmacogenomics, especially so with some of the patients who've experienced some of the more serious, life threatening reactions. And so one of our patients has been doing some work with the Academy of Medical Sciences, and she presented to the Sir Colin Dollery lecture in 2022, and she shared her story of having an adverse drug reaction and the importance of pharmacogenomics, and the impact that pharmacogenomics can have on patient care.  Vivienne: Now, I think that was Stevens-Johnson syndrome. We're going to hear in a moment from somebody who did experience Stevens-Johnson's, but just tell us briefly what that is.  Anita: Stevens-Johnson syndrome is a potentially life threatening reaction that can be caused by a viral infection, but is more commonly caused by a medicine. There are certain groups of medicines that can cause this reaction, such as antibiotics or anticonvulsants, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatories, and also a drug called allopurinol, which is used to treat gout. Patients have really serious side effects to this condition, and they're often left with long-term health complications. The morbidity and mortality is considerable as well, and patients often spend a lot of time in hospital and take a long time to recover.   Vivienne: And let's now hear from Jane Burns for someone with lived experience of that Stevens-Johnson syndrome. When Jane Burns was 19, the medicine she took for her epilepsy was changed.  Jane: I remember waking up and feeling really hot, and I was hallucinating, so I was taken to the Royal Liverpool Hospital emergency department by my parents. When I reached A&E, I had a temperature of 40 degrees Celsius. I was given Piriton and paracetamol, and the dermatologist was contacted. My mum had taken my medication to hospital and explained the changeover process with my epilepsy medication. A decision was made to discontinue the Tegretol and I was kept in for observation. Quite rapidly, the rash was changing. Blisters were forming all over my body, my mouth was sore and my jaw ached. My temperature remained very high. It was at this point that Stevens-Johnson syndrome, or SJS, was diagnosed.  Over the next few days, my condition deteriorated rapidly. The rash became deeper in colour. Some of the blisters had burst, but some got larger. I developed ulcers on my mouth and it was extremely painful. I started to lose my hair and my fingernails. As I had now lost 65 percent of my skin, a diagnosis of toxic epidermal necrolysis, or TEN, was made. Survivors of SJS TEN often suffer with long-term visible physical complications, but it is important to also be aware of the psychological effects, with some patients experiencing post-traumatic stress disorder. It's only as I get older that I realise how extremely lucky I am to have survived. Due to medical and nursing expertise, and the research being conducted at the time, my SJS was diagnosed quickly and the medication stopped. This undoubtedly saved my life.  Vivienne: Now, you've been looking at the development of a passport in collaborating with the AMS and the MHRA. Tell me a bit more about that.  Anita: Yes, we set up a patient group at the Wolfson Centre for Personalised Medicine approximately 12 years ago, and Professor Sir Munir Pirmohamed and I, we wanted to explore a little bit more about what was important to patients, really to complement all the scientific and clinical research activity within pharmacogenomics. And patients recognised that, alongside the pharmacogenomic testing, they recognised healthcare professionals didn't really have an awareness of such serious reactions like Stevens-Johnson syndrome, and so they said they would benefit from having a My SJS Passport, which is a booklet that can summarise all of the important information about their care post-discharge, and this can then be used to coordinate and manage their long-term healthcare problems post-discharge and beyond. And so this was designed by survivors for survivors, and it was then evaluated as part of my PhD, and the findings from the work suggest that the passport is like the patient's voice, and it really does kind of validate their diagnosis and raises awareness of SJS amongst healthcare professionals. So, really excellent findings from the research, and the patients think it's a wonderful benefit to them.  Vivienne: So, it's a bit like a kind of paper version of the bracelet that you sometimes see people wearing that are on steroids, for instance.  Anita: It is like that, and it's wonderful because it's a handheld source of valuable information that they can share with healthcare professionals. And this is particularly important if they're admitted in an emergency and they can't speak for themselves. And so the passport has all that valuable information, so that patients aren't prescribed that drug again, so it prevents them experiencing a serious adverse drug reaction again.   Vivienne: So, Stevens-Johnson, Bill, is a really scary side effect, but what about the day to day benefits of pharmacogenomics for patients?  Bill: So, what we've seen is that the limited adoption so far in the UK and other countries has focused particularly on severe adverse drug reactions. They've been easier to identify and there's a clear relationship between some drugs and some genetic changes where that information is useful. So a good example has been the recent adoption of pharmacogenetic testing for a gene called DPYD for patients undergoing cancer treatment, particularly breast and bowel cancer. And if you have an absence of the enzyme that that gene makes, if you're given that treatment, then you can end up on intensive care and die, so it's a really significant side effect. But as you say, the most common side effects aren't necessarily fatal, but they can have a huge impact upon people and on their wellbeing.   And it's not just in terms of side effects. It's in terms of the effectiveness of the medicine. Because if a person is prescribed a medicine that doesn't or isn't going to work for them then it can take them longer to recover, to get onto the right medicine. That can have all sorts of detrimental effects. And so when we're thinking about introducing pharmacogenetics more broadly rather than just on a single drug or a single gene basis, we're thinking about that for common drugs like antidepressants, painkillers, statins, the drugs that GPs are often prescribing on a regular basis to a whole range of patients.  Vivienne: So, to go back to you, Anita, we're really talking about dose here, aren't we, whether you need twice the dose or half the dose depending on how quickly your body metabolises that particular medicine. How do patients view that?  Anita: Well, the patient in question who presented for the Academy of Medical Sciences, I mean, her take on this was, she thinks pharmacogenetics is wonderful because it will allow doctors and nurses to then prescribe the right drug, but also to adapt the dose accordingly to make sure that they get the best outcome, which provides the maximum benefit while also minimising any potential harm. And so from her perspective, that was one of the real benefits of pharmacogenomics. But she also highlighted about the benefits for future generations, the fear of her son taking the same medicine and experiencing the same reaction. And so I think her concerns were, if we have pharmacogenetic testing for a panel of medicines, as Bill mentioned then, then perhaps this would be fantastic for our children as they grow up, and we can identify and predict and prevent these type of reactions happening to future generations.  Vivienne: And some of these drugs, Bill, are really very common indeed, something like codeine. Just tell us about codeine, ‘cos it's something – whenever I tell this to friends [laughter], they're always completely entranced by the idea that some people don't need nearly as much codeine as others.  Bill: Yeah, so codeine is a drug that's very commonly used as a painkiller. To have its real effect, it needs to be converted in the body to a different drug called morphine, and that is done by an enzyme which is made by a gene called CYP2D6. And we all carry changes in CYP2D6, and the frequency of those variants, whether they make the gene work too much or whether they make it work too little, they vary enormously across the world, so that if you go to parts of Africa, about 30 percent of the population will make more of the CYP2D6, and so they will convert the codeine much more quickly, whereas if you go to the UK, maybe up to ten percent of the white population in the UK just won't be converting codeine to morphine at all, so they won't get any benefit from the drug. So at both ends, you have some people that don't respond and some people that respond a little bit too much so that they need either an alternative drug or they need a different dose.  Vivienne: So, all those people who say, you know, “My headache hasn't been touched by this painkiller,” and we say, “What a wimp you're being,” actually, it's to do with genetics.  Bill: Yeah, absolutely. There's a biological reason why people don't – not for everybody, but for a significant number of people, that's absolutely right, and we can be far more tailored in how we prescribe medication, and get people onto painkillers that work for them much more quickly.  Vivienne: And that's so interesting that it varies by where you come from in the world, because that means we need to give particular attention – and I'm thinking, Anita, to working with patients from different community groups, to make sure that they understand the need for pharmacogenomics.  Anita: I think that's really important, Vivienne, and I think we are now having discussions with the likes of Canada SJS awareness group, and also people have been in touch with me from South Africa because people have requested the passport now to be used in different countries, because they think it's a wonderful tool, and it's about raising awareness of pharmacogenomics and the potential benefits of that, and being able to share the tools that we've got to help patients once they've experienced a serious reaction.  Vivienne: So, pharmacogenomics clearly is important in the prevention of adverse drug reactions, better and more accurate prescribing, reduced medicines wastage. Does this mean that it's also going to save money, Bill, for the NHS?  Bill: Potentially. It should do if it's applied properly, but there's lots of work to make sure that not only are we using the right evidence and using the right types of tests in the laboratory, but we're getting the information to prescribers, so to GPs, to pharmacists, to hospital doctors, in a way that is understandable and meaningful, such that they can then act upon that information. So, the money will only be saved and then can be reused for healthcare if the whole process and the whole pathway works, and that information is used effectively.  Vivienne: So, a lot of research to make sure that all of that is in place, and to demonstrate the potential cost savings.  Bill: Yes. I mean, there are very nice studies that have been done already in parts of the world that have shown that the savings that could be accrued for applying pharmacogenetics across common conditions like depression, like in patients to prevent secondary types of strokes, are enormous. They run into hundreds of millions of pounds or dollars. But there is an initial investment that is required to make sure that we have the testing in place, that we have the digital pathways to move the information in place, and that there's the education and training, so that health professionals know how to use the information. But the potential is absolutely enormous.  Vivienne: Matt, can I turn now to the yellow card. So, people will be very familiar with the yellow card system. So, if you have an adverse reaction, you can send a yellow card in – I mean, literally, it is a yellow card [laughter]. It does exactly what it says on the tin. You send a yellow card to the MHRA, and they note if there's been an adverse effect of a particular medicine. But Genomics England is teaming up with the MHRA to do something more with yellow cards, and we're also doing this with the Yellow Card Biobank. Tell us a bit more.  Matt: So, yellow card's a great scheme that was set up decades ago, initially starting off, as you said, with literally yellow cards, but now actually most submissions actually come online. And it's important to note that submissions can come not just from healthcare providers, but majority of submissions actually come from patients themselves, and that people should feel free, if they feel they've had an adverse drug reaction, to report that themselves rather than necessarily depending on a medical practitioner or the healthcare provider to create that report. So, Genomics England is partnering with the MHRA in building what's called the Yellow Card Biobank, the goal of which is to identify genetic markers for adverse drug reactions earlier than has occurred in the past, so that we can then introduce genetic tests to prevent these adverse drug reactions much sooner than has occurred previously.   So, what we're doing is basically at the moment we're doing a pilot, but the ultimate plan is that in future, patients who report a serious adverse drug reaction through the Yellow Card Biobank will be asked to provide a sample, a blood sample, that we then screen. We do a whole genome sequence on it, and then combine these with patients who've had like adverse drug reactions and identify genetic markers for that adverse drug reaction medication earlier, that can then be introduced into clinical practice earlier. And this should reduce by decades the amount of time between when adverse drug reactions first start occurring with medications and us then being able to translate that into a preventative mechanism.  Vivienne: And will that scheme discover, do you think, new interactions that you didn't know about before? Or do you expect it to turn up what you already know about?  Matt: No, I really think there's a lot of discovery that is yet to happen here. In particular, even for drugs that we know cause adverse drug reactions, mostly they've only been studied in people of European ancestry and often in East Asian ancestry, but in many other ancestries that are really important in the global population and in the UK population, like African ancestry and South Asian ancestries, we have very little data. And even within Africa, which is an area which is genetically diverse as the rest of the world put together, we really don't know what different ethnicities within Africa, actually what their genetic background is with regard to adverse drug reactions.  The other thing I'd say is that there are a lot of new medications which have simply not been studied well enough. And lastly, that at the moment people are focused on adverse drug reactions being due to single genetic variants, when we know from the model of most human diseases that most human diseases are actually caused by combinations of genetic variants interacting with one another, so-called common disease type genetics, and that probably is similarly important with regard to pharmacogenomics as it is to overall human diseases. That is, it's far more common that these are actually due to common variants interacting with one another rather than the rare variants that we've been studying to date.  Vivienne: So, it's a kind of cocktail effect, if you like. You know, you need lots of genes working together and that will produce a reaction that you may not have expected if you'd looked at a single gene alone.  Matt: That's absolutely correct, and there's an increasing amount of evidence to show that that is the case with medications, but it's really very early days for research in that field. And the Yellow Card Biobank will be one of many approaches that will discover these genetic variants in years to come.  Vivienne: Now, Matt's a research scientist. Bill, you're on the frontline in the NHS. How quickly can this sort of finding be translated into care for people in the NHS?  Bill: So, really quickly is the simple answer to that, Viv. If we look at examples from a number of years ago, there's a drug called azathioprine that Matt has used lots in some of his patients. In rheumatology, it's used for patients with inflammatory bowel disease. And the first studies that showed that there was a gene that was relevant to having bad reactions to that drug came out in the 1980s, but it wasn't until well into this century, so probably 30-plus years later that we were routinely using that test in clinical medicine. So, there was an enormous lot of hesitancy about adopting that type of testing, and a bit of uncertainty. If you move forward to work that our colleague Munir Pirmohamed in Liverpool has done with colleagues in Australia like Simon Mallal around HIV medicine, there was this discovery that a drug called abacavir, that if you carried a particular genetic change, that you had a much higher risk of having a really severe reaction to that. The adoption from the initial discovery to routine, worldwide testing happened within four years.   So, already we've seen a significant change in the appetite to move quickly to adopt this type of testing, and I see certainly within the NHS and within other health systems around the world, a real desire to adopt pharmacogenetics into routine clinical practice quickly and at scale, but also as part of a broader package of care, which doesn't just solely focus on genetics, but thinks about all the other parts that are important in how we respond to medication. So, making sure we're not on unusual combinations of drugs, or that we're taking our medicine at the right time and with food or not with food, and all of those other things that are really important. And if you link that to the pharmacogenetics, we're going to have a much safer, more effective medicines world.  Vivienne: I think one of the joys of working at Genomics England is that you see some of this work really going into clinical practice very fast indeed. And I should say actually that the Wolfson Centre for Personalised Medicine, the PPI group that Anita looks after so well, they've been very important in recruiting people to Yellow Card Biobank. And if anyone's listening to this, Matt, and wants to be part of this, how do they get involved? Or is it simply through the yellow card?  Matt: So at the moment, the Yellow Card Biobank is focusing on alopurinol.   Vivienne: So, that's a medicine you take for gout.  Matt: Which I use a lot in my rheumatology clinical practice. And direct acting oral anticoagulants, DOACs, which are used for vascular disease therapies and haemorrhage as a result of that. So, the contact details are available through the MHRA website, but I think more importantly, it's just that people be aware of the yellow card system itself, and that if they do experience adverse drug reactions, that they do actually complete a report form, ‘cos I think still actually a lot of adverse drug reactions go unreported.  Vivienne: I'm forgetting of course that we see Matt all the time in the Genomics England office and we don't think that he has any other home [laughter] than Genomics England, but of course he still sees some patients in rheumatology clinic. So, I want to now look to the future. I mean, I'm, as you both know, a huge enthusiast for pharmacogenomics, ‘cos it's the thing that actually, when you talk to patients or just the general public, they just get it straight away. They can't think why, if you knew about pharmacogenomics, why you wouldn't want to do it. But it's not necessarily an easy thing to do. How can we move in the future, Bill, to a more proactive approach for pharmacogenomics testing? Where would we start?  Bill: Yes, so I think we've built up really good confidence that pharmacogenetics is a good thing to be doing. Currently, we're doing that predominantly at the point when a patient needs a particular medicine. That's the time that you would think about doing a genetic test. And previously, that genetic test would only be relevant for that specific drug. I think we're moving to a place where, rather than just doing that one test that might be relevant to one drug, we'd be able to do a test which at the same price would generate information that could be relevant at further points in your life if you were requiring different types of medicine. So, that information would then be available in your hospital record, in your GP record, that you could have access to it yourself. And then I think ultimately what we would really love to get to a point is where everybody across the whole population just has that information to hand when it's required, so that they're not waiting for the results of a genetic test, it's immediately within their healthcare record. That's what we'd call pre-emptive pharmacogenetic testing, and I think that's the golden land that we want to reach.  Vivienne: So for instance, I might have it on my NHS app, and when I go to a doctor and they prescribe something, I show my app to the GP, or something pops up on the GP's screen, or maybe it's something that pops up on the pharmacist's screen.  Bill: I think that's right. I think that's what we're looking to get to that point. We know that colleagues in the Netherlands have made some great progress at developing pathways around that. There's a lot of public support for that. And pharmacists are very engaged in that. In the UK, the pharmacists, over the last few years, have really taken a very active role to really push forward this area of medicine, and this should be seen as something that is relevant to all people, and all health professionals should be engaged with it.  Vivienne: And on a scale of one to ten, how difficult is it going to be to implement in the NHS?  Bill: So, that's a difficult question. I think the first thing is identifying what the challenges are. So I have not given you a number, I've turned into a politician, not answered the question. So, I think what has happened over the last few years, and some of our work within the NHS Network of Excellence in pharmacogenetics and some of the other programmes of work that have been going on, is a really good, honest look at what it is we need to do to try to achieve pharmacogenetics implementation and routine use. I don't think the challenge is going to be predominantly in the laboratory. I think we've got phenomenal laboratories. I think we've got great people doing great genetic testing. I think the biggest challenges are going to be about how you present the data, and that data is accessible. And then ensuring that health professionals really feel that this is information that isn't getting in the way of their clinical practice, but really making a difference and enhancing it, and of benefit both to the healthcare system but more importantly to the patients.  Vivienne: Now, when I hear you both talk, my mind turns to drug discovery and research, and Matt, I'm quite sure that that's right at the top of your mind. Tell us how pharmacogenomics can help in drug discovery and research.  Matt: So, pharmacogenomics, I think actually just genetic profiling of diseases in itself just to start off with is actually a really good way of identifying new potential therapeutic targets, and also from derisking drug development programmes by highlighting likely adverse drug reactions of medications that are being considered for therapeutic trials, or targets that are being considered for therapeutic development. Pharmacogenomics beyond that is actually largely about – well, it enables drug development programmes by enabling you to target people who are more likely to respond, and avoid people who are more likely to have adverse drug reactions. And so that therapeutic index of the balance between likely efficacy versus likely toxicity, genetics can really play into that and enable medications to be used where otherwise they might have failed.  This is most apparent I think in the cancer world. A classic example there, for example, is the development of a class of medications called EGFR inhibitors, which were developed for lung cancer, and in the initial cancer trials, actually were demonstrated to be ineffective, until people trialled them in East Asia and found that they were effective, and that that turns out to be because the type of cancers that respond to them are those that have mutations in the EGFR gene, and that that's common in East Asians. We now know that, wherever you are in the world, whether you're East Asian or European or whatever, if you have a lung adenocarcinoma with an EGFR mutation, you're very likely to respond to these medications. And so that pharmacogenomic discovery basically rescued a class of medication which is now probably the most widely used medication for lung adenocarcinomas, so a huge beneficial effect. And that example is repeated across multiple different cancer types, cancer medication types, and I'm sure in other fields we'll see that with expansive new medications coming in for molecularly targeted therapies in particular.  Vivienne: So, smaller and more effective trials rather than larger trials that perhaps seem not to work but actually haven't been tailored enough to the patients that are most likely to benefit.  Matt: Yeah, well, particularly now that drug development programmes tend to be very targeted at specific genetic targets, pharmacogenetics is much more likely to play a role in identifying patients who are going to respond to those medications. So, I think many people in the drug development world would like to see that, for any significant drug development programme, there's a proper associated pharmacogenomic programme to come up with molecular markers predicting a response.  Vivienne: We're going to wrap up there. Thank you so much to our guests, Bill Newman, Anita Hanson, Matt Brown, and our patient Jane Burns. Thank you so much for joining us today to discuss pharmacogenomics in personalised medicine, and the benefits, the challenges and the future prospects for integrating pharmacogenomics into healthcare systems. And if you'd like to hear more podcasts like this, please subscribe to Behind the Genes. It's on your favourite podcast app. Thank you so much for listening. I've been your host, Vivienne Parry. This podcast was edited by Bill Griffin at Ventoux Digital and produced by the wonderful Naimah. Bye for now. 

In this explainer episode, we've asked Professor Matt Brown, Chief Scientific Officer at Genomics England, to explain what personalised medicine is and how it could change the way we treat genetic conditions and cancer. You can also find a series of short videos explaining some of the common terms you might encounter about genomics on our YouTube channel. If you've got any questions, or have any other topics you'd like us to explain, feel free to contact us on info@genomicsengland.co.uk. You can read the transcript below or download it here: https://files.genomicsengland.co.uk/documents/Podcast-transcripts/What-is-personalised-medicine.docx Naimah: What is personalised medicine? I'm joined by Matt Brown, chief scientific officer for Genomics England, to find out more. So, first of all, Matt, can you tell me, what is personalised medicine?   Matt: So, personalised medicine is about giving the right dose of a medicine and the right medicine to the right person. So, it's exactly the opposite of one size fits all. It's what doctors have been trying to do ever since we had effective medicines, that is generally looking at the patient, what disease have they got, what factors are there about the patient that can help judge what dose they should give and for how long, of which medicine.   Naimah: So, people often refer to this as precision medicine. Is this the same thing?   Matt: Generally, the two terms are used interchangeably. I think precision medicine is more specifically about the dose perhaps, but effectively they both mean the right medicine at the right dose for the right person.   Naimah: And how can we predict what treatment will suit each individual patient best?   Matt: Well, to some extent, of course, this depends on the disease the patient actually has. We also know from a patient's history how they've reacted to similar medications in the past. So for example, some patients have lots of problems with anti-inflammatories, other patients don't, so if you give an anti-inflammatory to somebody who's had problems with them before, you're likely to cause the same problems all over again. So nowadays, we have much, much better ways, other than trial and error, to predict what treatment will suit a patient best, and in particular, development of genetic markers to look at how their condition is going to respond best, and how the patient is going to tolerate the medicine you give them, and what dose you should be giving them.   Naimah: How could personalised medicine change the way we treat genetic conditions and cancer?   Matt: So, I'll talk about cancer first up. In the past, we used to treat cancers based on the organ from which the cancer actually arose, and the more we've learnt about what the genetic mutations are that cause cancers, the more cancer treatments are being decided based on the genetic mutation which is driving the cancer, and this has proven to be more effective than just looking at the organ from which the cancer arose. It turns out then that some medications which were only being used for specific cancers, are actually useful across multiple cancers that are driven by the same genetic mutations.   In lots of other common diseases though, we now know a lot about genetic variants which predispose people to adverse drug reactions, and so we can use genetic tests to predict who's going to get those adverse drug reactions and avoid them. And similarly, we also know about genetic determinants of how people metabolise and, in many cases, activate medications, and that helps us a lot learning about what dose to give people.   Naimah: And how far away are we from seeing this routinely in clinical care?   Matt: We are seeing it in routine clinical care in some pretty narrow settings. So, there are genetic tests available for enzymes which are involved in activation of particular chemotherapy 5 agents. So, DPYD testing, for example, is widely used to predict people's likely response to a class of chemotherapy agent called fluoropyrimidines, or 5-Fluorouracil is a common one, and the genetic test basically picks out a group of people, a small number of people who are likely to have severe adverse drug reactions to that class of medication, and that's been a really big success.   We also use it for picking some other severe adverse drug reactions to medications like gout medications, HIV medications and so on, but generally it's pretty narrow. What we want to get to the point is where we have people tested in advance of them needing medications, so that when they go to the doctor to be seen about a particular condition, the doctor already has the genetic test available to them, so the doctor can say if the medication is safe and what dose to use. This is what we call pre-emptive testing.   Naimah: That was Matt Brown explaining what is personalised medicine. If you'd like to hear more explainer episodes like this, you can find them on our website at www.genomicsengland.co.uk. Thank you for listening. 

Get ready to immerse yourself in an enlightening discussion and AMA session with Matt, an expert in advanced strategies and Amazon PPC. Join us in this TACoS Tuesday episode, as we answer questions about variation listings, auto campaigns, broad campaigns, and ranking. We also take a peek into Matt's impressive background in e-commerce, recounting his experiences with selling textbooks and private-label products. Hear us as we dissect Amazon's latest data tools like Product Opportunity Explorer, Search Query Performance, and Brand Analytics and discuss how these can help sellers optimize their advertising strategies in this highly competitive market. As we journey deeper into Amazon PPC campaigns, we touch on our “north star metric” of two sales and a click-through rate above 0.2%. Learn about the significance of negative matching and how to identify underperforming keywords using the search query report. We also shed light on the benefits of using software like Pacvue for automation and analytics and how it can save you time and effort. Plus, discover the advantages of day partying and understand the impact of different match types on campaign creation.   Lastly, listen in as we dissect the topic of Amazon PPC and how to leverage it to drive sales and boost profits. We share the calculation for adjusting bids based on target ACoS and emphasize the importance of not solely focusing on ACoS as a metric. We also touch on the recent announcement of Sponsored TV and its potential for both large and small brands. Tune in as we demystify the misconception that PPC must always result in immediate profit and share strategies for effectively utilizing broad keywords despite their increasing cost. This episode is packed with practical advice, insightful discussions, and cutting-edge strategies to help you win in the world of Amazon selling.   In episode 516 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley and Matt discuss: 00:00 - Expert Matt Altman Discusses His Amazon PPC Strategies 07:59 - Keyword Promotion, Sales Metrics, and Negative Matching 11:59 - Maximizing Advertising Efficiency With Pacvue 15:44 - Bid Adjustment and Amazon Sponsored TV for Sellers 23:28 - Amazon PPC Strategy and Optimization 28:21 - Analyze Ad Performance With Feature Pack 32:25 - Using Keywords for Effective Campaigns 35:27 - Boost Search Ranking With Brand Name 37:29 - Amazon Variations and Outside Traffic Strategy 43:08 - Invitation for January Case Study ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On YouTube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: Today we've got one of the world's foremost knowledge experts on Amazon Advanced Strategy and PPC Matt back on the show and he's going to be answering all of your questions live, as well as answering a lot of my advanced questions on things like variation listings, auto campaigns, broad campaigns, ranking and much more. How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think. Want to keep up to date with trending topics in the e-commerce world? Make sure to subscribe to our blog. We regularly release articles that talk about things such as shipping and logistics, e-commerce and other countries, the latest changes to Amazon Seller Central, how to get set up on new platforms like New Egg, how to write and publish a book on Amazon KDP and much, much more. Check these articles out at h10.me forward slash blog. Bradley Sutton: Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers podcast by Helium 10. I'm your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show that is our tacos Tuesday PPC show of the week or of the month, I should say where we go in-depth into anything and everything Amazon advertising with special guests that we have, and this week or this month we're going to have a special guest. We're going to invite him up. We're having some technical difficulty. I'm here at the Helium 10 office actually here in Irvine, California, today. So I don't have my regular setup here, but wanted to make sure everybody's having a great Q4. So far, all right. Let's go ahead and bring up our guest of the month, and it is Matt from Clear Ads. Matt, how's it going? Matt: Good, how are you doing, Bradley? Bradley Sutton: Doing awesome, doing awesome. Where are you actually watching us from? Where are you located? Matt: So currently in London. So we're here in London for the next few months, but we moved to Spain about six months ago. Bradley Sutton: Oh, nice, how's that been. Matt: We're in Barcelona. It's been great so far Loving it. Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome. Have you been to any FC Barcelona games since you've been out there? Matt: We haven't yet now, but it is at the top of my list. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, I've been to a couple when Messi was still there. Of course, those are good times. Love Spain Now, just in general. We've had you on the podcast before and you gave us really cool strategies in general. Today we're kind of going to be focused on PPC. That's like one of your specialties, but can you talk a little bit about your background and how you came into that Amazon space, if maybe somebody might be listening to you for the first time? Matt: Yeah, definitely so. Been in the space since around 2011, started in college actually selling textbooks and retail arbitrage, so did that for about three to four years. Kind of scaled up my bankroll to where I could get into private label and jumped at it and honestly launched a bunch of crap. We did really well for a few years until a lot of the manufacturers just started going direct to Amazon and had some pretty bad years. But pivoted, got into supplements and food and that's been for like the last six years. Bradley Sutton: Awesome. Now you are known for a lot of like really next level strategies. We've had you before at our elite workshop and things. And so thinking just first of all, I mean it could be about PPC, but just thinking outside of PPC, almost with all this new data that Amazon has come out with in the last couple of years, I mean I think a lot of us were even surprised years ago when Brand Analytics came out. And then nowadays, search career performance and things like that, this is stuff that I would say I don't know about you but me. Like four years ago I would have bet $10,000 that there's no way Amazon would ever tell you exactly how many sales are coming from a non-normalized search and what the click share percentage of top 10 competitors are, and this and that I mean people were paying Amazon employees thousands of dollars for these underground reports that weren't even as robust as what is now available for everybody. So what's your favorite thing? I'm assuming it's search career performance. Your favorite thing that Amazon has come out with? And then what part of that especially do you think is super powerful that Amazon sellers should be using? Matt: Yeah. So I would definitely say search career performance is up there. I would say they haven't changed too much about it in the last like year and a half, but really, where we've been getting a lot of knowledge and data from is Product Opportunity Explorer. I would say like this used to be kind of bland, like years ago. They recently updated it, and the amount of data that they are giving you is insane. I mean, they're telling you exactly if you sell such and such supplement. These are the 15 keywords that matter. Here's the trends on that, here's the seasonality. Like every data point that you really need is there, and that's what you need to win on, I would say. The other big one, though, is the new reports in the brand analytics, where it's giving you greater details into your customer segments. So, like we sell and consumables, and we've always kind of taken a strategy on ads that's hey, like, even if our cost is 100%, what is our cost per net new customer? And we were trying to manually calculate that previously, and now they're telling you specifically by week, how many returning customers, how many net new customers you have. So it's really helped us dial in the ads for that specific strategy. Bradley Sutton: Okay, cool, like. One thing I always liked about Product Opportunity Explorer even when it was kind of bland, as you said was seeing how many, for example, how many products it took to make up or in the old days, 80% of the sales for the entire niche. Now they kind of like, without even announcing it, they change it to 90%. But then it'll be interesting to see that you know some, you know quote, unquote markets or niches, what they call it you know, would have like 200 products, means like it's kind of like wide open, it takes 200 products just to make up 80 or 90% of the sales. And now you know there might be some where it's like only 40 or 10, you know like or like wow, there's 10 people dominating this. Now how would you personally use that information? Like is one or the other like better than the other? Matt: Yeah, so the great thing about Product Opportunity Explorer is it really shows you what keywords are driving the sales for those. So more than how many products are there we're looking at, are there branded terms that are in the Product Opportunity Explorer.  So like an example that we were looking at this past week was for a floor cleaning product and we saw that of the 20 top like 50 keywords, bona was one of the main sales driving keywords. Like, even if there weren't that many products in that category, we aren't going to be able to overcome that branded search deficit. So it's just not something that we would go into Um, but we definitely prefer to go into categories where those sales are spread across more Um. The main reason for that is we really like to do kind of um I would call it kind of like tailgating. We like to kind of stay behind everyone and we'll pull like 10% of the sales from this person, from this person, and you can kind of pick off keywords from certain top products and they may not notice that you're coming up and then you can really use that to catapult yourself to the top of the category before the rest of the products in the category realized what's happening. Bradley Sutton: Interesting, interesting, all right Now. Just, you know switching gears and going, you know kind of like PBC. Let let's do like some kind of beginner question, then let's do some some, some, some advanced things. But just, I always ask a lot of the, the the tacos Tuesday guest, about their strategy on this, because I think this is applicable almost to any level of seller. But what's your, your kind of like rule set as far as uh, when you promote keywords from like an auto or broad to to an exact, and also when you negative match on the promotion side, like, in other words, like are, are you looking for at least you know just one sale, or does it have to be two or three, like in the auto and then, and then, and then you, you put it in um or what. What's your criteria for for moving something from an auto to a exact? Matt: Yeah, so short answer. We're usually looking for two sales and a click through rate above like 0.2% Um. That's kind of like our North Star metric Um, but it really depends on the strategy of that campaign. Um, like, if we're wanting to run a lot of just awareness, we're going after ones where we may not even have sales at all but we have a high click through rate because it's a discovery keyword, that someone's kind of navigating that category with Um. So it varies, but typically it's two orders and above like a 0.2% click through. Okay, Awesome. Bradley Sutton: On the flip side, when are you negative? Uh matching, like uh, is it a certain number of clicks? Uh, is it a certain number of clicks that, uh, you have to have? Is it spend that you're looking at without a sale? Um, and then the follow-up question to that is are there scenarios where you're like not just automatically negative matching but you're like, oh shoot, this is like an important keyword. I got to figure out why in the heck I'm not converting on it before I go and just blindly negative matches. So it's kind of like a two prong question there. Matt: Yeah, Um, so this is, this is where really the search query report kind of data comes into play. Um, we're looking at, hey, like for competitors, um, like, is this performing? Kind of what's happening? Why aren't we getting sales? Um, we'll go ahead and test, possibly changing out our titles, our images, um morph towards those keywords and seeing if we can produce some sales through that. Um, but again it kind of goes back to, like, you know, the, the, the, the sort of focus that we used over a year and a half. Back to like, what is the source of that keyword? Is it really a converging keyword? Is it a discovery keyword? Like, we have a few keywords that we spend thousands of dollars on a month on my own brands, where we maybe get one or two sales Like it's out of loss, but we know it's a keyword that someone that's looking for a type of product uses is like their first term when they're trying to figure out which one to buy. And we just want to make sure that we're always top of mind really hard to like, distinguish that out and see that you were getting benefits from that. But now we're able to go a little bit deeper in that funnel and see that like yes, this is actually driving sales further down the funnel for us. Bradley Sutton: Okay, cool, cool. Now on the more advanced side, like you know, as I just threw on my, my pack view, my pack view jacket here, what, what are you? You know, like I know you've been using pack view for a while, but you know somebody out there my in general not understand, like you know, some of these services. You know pack view is not like oh yeah, you know, $49 a month subscription, but no, it's, it's, it's, you know costs, costs some money to you. So at what point does does it make sense for somebody to to like say you know what, I'm overdoing these Excel spreadsheets, I need to use a software. And then what? What makes a software suite like Pacvue so valuable? Like, how to you know? Cause you're not going to be paying money for something for you or your business or your clients that doesn't give you good ROI. So why is it worth it for you? Matt: Yeah, yeah. So we've been using Pacvue for gosh almost like seven years now. I think we were one of the first like agencies at my prior agency to come onto the platform and we love it. Honestly, wouldn't go anywhere else. So first thing I did when we came to Clare ads, we actually started switching all the accounts over to Pacvue. But in reality I would say it's usable for every level of seller. But we've had a lot of accounts come to us that may be using it but they don't know how to actually use Pacvue to its full advantages. They aren't taking advantage of all of the automations and analytics that are on the back end there. But I would say, even if you're a smaller seller like in using something that, like Bradley said, is $49 to $59, like even though Pacvue is gonna cost more, you're going to get so much more out of it. It will make your ads been more efficient. You will see better results as a whole. Like make the switch now, because it's a lot easier to switch when you're starting out and you have very few campaigns. Like migrating accounts over that have 400 campaigns already. Like it starts to get hard and you've got to really rework a lot of that. So I believe in doing it right from day one, and you're gonna save yourself a lot of work down the line. Bradley Sutton: Now, one of the things Pacvue does that probably eventually is gonna come to regular sellers might have some visibility in this aspect, but it's kind of like the ability to do like day partying and things. So is that something that you guys actually do Like? Do you use that service of turning off ads or changing budgets at certain times of the day and if you are, what's your criteria when you're looking at that? Matt: Yeah, so we do use that on every single account. We use it in one of two ways. One is we're manually adjusting it based on, like our peak sales hours that we know of, if it's a high selling account. But on other accounts, Pacvue actually has an awesome feature where you can set up a day partying scheduler based on conversion rates, click through rates, number of orders by hour, and it will dynamically update that based on a trailing two week, three week period, whatever you set it to. So Pacvue really does a lot of the thinking for you and eliminates kind of that concern from your mind. Bradley Sutton: All right, let's see we've got from Dota In Amazon PPC campaign. Should I create one campaign containing an ad group for phrase match exact and broad, or should I create each match in their own campaign or like? So I guess he's saying like maybe he should have different ad groups in one campaign or do you just have like one ad group per match type, per campaign? Matt: Yeah, so I'll tell you why we do it a certain way. I would say this is definitely kind of interchangeable depending upon how you want to manage your campaigns, but in order to have full and absolute control you need to have a separate campaign for each of these. A good example of this is we had a client who came to us. They had a lot of mixes within their ad groups during Black Friday, cyber Monday, they upped their bids with top of search modifier and they didn't realize that it would affect their broad targeting terms, that they were spending like $7 on broad terms and just getting placements everywhere and tank the performance. So we always break them out into their own campaigns and then even from there we'll typically segment out, like superhero keywords, into their own single keyword campaigns. Bradley Sutton: Okay, excellent. Let me see we've got another one here from Kim Kim K. I don't think it's the Kim K. Hey guys, do you have a calculation that you use to determine how much to adjust bids? Longstanding sponsor campaigns with lots of history is the focus target. Acos, thanks to Vets. Matt: Yeah, so this is pretty easy. You can put together a pretty simple formula to figure out bids based on your target ACOS. So, off the top of my head and I could be saying this wrong we have it in Excel sheet. But you're really just looking at cost per click times, conversion rates, and then equals your ACOS over that. I would say we typically don't optimize any campaigns towards ACOS. I think it's something that's been brought up a lot across, like the Amazon ecosystem, and it's never really the best metric to look at. We've had a lot of accounts that have come to us where their sales have depleted over the last year, year and a half, and they're running very efficient. Like 20% ACOS. Tacos are like three to 5%, like the account looks healthy but you're undermining the daily velocity per keyword that you can achieve, which ultimately kills your organic ranks, and then you may not see it now or three months from now, but six months from now you're gonna be like what the heck happens and it's really hard to climb yourself back out of that pit. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, yeah makes sense. But just in general, before I go into some more specific ones that I had. You know, we recently had Amazon unbox and there was a number of announcements one of them being sponsored TV, that create a lot of buzz. But the question I think a lot of people have is is, well, that's still something, or maybe only for humongous, you know sellers like first of all, is that true, or is there a path to using sponsored TV for, you know, maybe there's a low seven figure seller, high six figure seller, and then is it kind of only for brand awareness, or do you think that there's? You know the way that they're doing it, sometimes with QR codes, you know, like on Black Friday football game that they had, where there's a direct to purchase link or is it more for brand awareness, do you think? Matt: Yeah. So we ran some over Black Friday, cyber Monday, across large and small brands and actually saw decent performance on quite a bit of them. I would say the biggest factor that really drove it was the quality of creative. A lot of our smaller brands didn't have the creative backbone to really fulfill a huge TV push like that, and that's probably the guardrail that smaller brands are going to have trouble getting over. Like you can't take a $200 video off the Fiverr and put it on TV and expect it to do well. So really focusing in on the creative and making it more like a TV commercial definitely helped for us. But we did have some very basic like stop motion slide animated videos with just some text over them and they did pretty well as well. So I would say it's worth trying out. Just make sure you're really narrowing down those audiences that you're targeting, because the CPMs on it are extremely high. But test it, put $20, $30 behind it per day and just really see what you can do. I do think this will kind of be a big lever that larger brands can definitely lean more into to increase that awareness as they tap out other pieces of DSP and Amazon ads. But smaller brands is like it's just as evil, even as a playing field. But the creative does have to be elevated. Bradley Sutton: Okay. William says should I expect to see profit from PPC? I rarely see profit, however, the volume of sales increases. Where I see profit Maybe he's kind of like talking a little bit of tacos here, or like you know people, I think the narrative nowadays when you hear, when you hear sellers, is oh my goodness, like PPC is so expensive, like I don't even know how I can be profitable. But it's not always trying to just make profit on the exact ad. Right, talk a little bit about that. Matt: Yeah. So like one question I always ask sellers that even like potential clients that come to us when they're complaining about profits or tacos or a cost, I'm like, what's your CPA? And honestly, I can count on one hand the number of people that actually knew their CPAs by product that we've talked to. Every other ad channel you look at CPAs, whether you're running on meta, TikTok, whatever you're looking at CPAs, and every time we've run the numbers the CPAs are way cheaper on Amazon than they are on any other channel. What that means is yes, probably there are some categories where you're going to run PPC at a loss, Like on my brain, main brands. We run PPC at a loss because it keeps our velocities up, it keeps our organic rankings up and you'll see those metrics in your tacos. So really, tacos is kind of your guiding light on that, but really setting in stone a target CPA and not adjusting your bids based on a cost or tacos. But as long as you're hitting that target CPA, you're continuing to see growth. That's what we really like to maximize towards. Bradley Sutton: Excellent, thank you for that. William Guarov says hey, amazon PPC is getting costly. What's a strategy to play with broad keywords? And then maybe I can piggyback on that and take a step back. Broad it seemingly has almost changed over the last year or so. I could kind of predict what would come with Broad. I would use Helium 10, magnet, I would do the smart complete and then I could see all the Broad kind of variations. I kind of know what could potentially come up here Now. I might have coffin shelf as a Broad match and then I'll get thrown in like Gothic decor, like not even the same, doesn't even share the same keyword, and so maybe I'm not sure, if that's what he's talking about there, how it might be getting more expensive. And then if, if so, like, like, how do you deal with that? Matt: Yeah, so I'll answer this and I'll answer more about kind of what you went into, Bradley, because I think that's a bigger picture that people need to look into in the future of Amazon. But really when we're running Broad, we're running modified Broad campaigns so that we're at least trying to get more exact towards what we wanted. I will say it doesn't always work. Sometimes you still get those keywords way out of left field, but you have a bit more control. But I would focus again really on the search query performance data and the product opportunity. Explorer, like Amazon, is telling you specifically what keywords are being searched and what's being purchased. Broad isn't as useful for us as it used to be like. All that data now is getting piped back to us and using Helium 10, using Pacvue, you can find pretty much every keyword that's going to be a converting keyword. The biggest thing that we've seen Broad actually do for us here recently and I would say for the last six months, is it's allowed us to catch on to like TikTok trends that are basically going viral and it's picking up those keywords quicker than we would be able to pick them up. So that has been a huge opportunity. But there are a lot of other, like TikTok, specific tools that you can use to kind of find those trending things to get them into your ad campaigns. Matt: The bigger thing kind of on how Broad has expanded is Amazon, like Google and other search engines, is really kind of shifting towards a semantic search, which is why, like you're coming up for Gothic decor and things like that and you've probably heard other people in the space talking about semantics this has been key in, like Google, seo for the last few years and it's only going to get more and more relevant in Amazon as Amazon starts to switch more towards an AI learning model for their specific search. So a lot of what we've been doing and working on is, for example, typically if you're creating your listing, you'd find your keywords through Helium 10, you'd use Scribbles to craft your listing, make sure you get all your keywords in there, but, like in your example, gothic decor that is a huge semantic keyword that is relevant to your coffin. We would go ahead and put that on the back end or try and figure out how to fit it into the bullet points, because it's just a checkmark that Amazon's looking for now because semantically they're saying you should say something about Gothic with your current product and a lot of products that we've been optimizing towards this on, we've seen success like crazy, probably more than anything else that we've done in the last year and a half. Bradley Sutton: Okay, interesting, let's see. Guarev has another question here. What would be the ideal ratio performing and non-performing keywords in broad? Not sure if I understand that question fully, but do you know what you might be listening for? Matt: Say like in broad you're going to have a lot more non-performing just because of the control factor. Unless you're using a lot of negatives, negative phrases, throughout it, I would say we don't really look at the ratio of performing and non-performing in broad because really where we're caring about performance is on our exact match. We aren't caring as much here. We're using this to seed keywords, so even if they are performing, they aren't staying in broad that long if they are. So typically for us it would be like 90 to 95% are non-performing. Bradley Sutton: Okay, Now switching gears to auto campaigns. What's your strategy as far as, like the close match, loose match substitutes? Do you keep them all in one campaign or do you actually segregate those targets in separate auto campaigns? Matt: Yeah, so we actually mix it up. We've seen hit or miss performance on these when we break them out, for whatever reason. Sometimes they work better even with the exact same beds when they're all together. I don't know why that happens, but we typically test both and then whichever one's performing, we pause out the others and let one continue on. We do do a lot of negative matching in our auto campaigns that we're bidding on elsewhere, but we do also always still run a super low bid auto campaign. We negate out brand of terms and run them at like 30 cents per click, and I was just looking at account before I hopped on here Last week one of them got 135 sales for like $22. Like these campaigns still work, I've used them honestly as long as I've been selling on Amazon and we always set them up for all of our products. Bradley Sutton: Now, going back to software, software like Pacvue Adtomic. One cool thing that we can do is I could just see a search term, but not just at the campaign level. I could see it in all campaigns. Like, let's say, in an auto campaign, for example, I got a coffin shelf and in that campaign I had 40 clicks and zero sales. And let's say I felt that it wasn't too relevant of a keyword. I'm like, yeah, I don't want to keep spending money on this. Obviously, at 40 clicks I would negative match it. But with the software I can see that, hey, it's getting impressions and clicks in a broad campaign over here, maybe an exact campaign over here, but in those campaigns there's only like maybe five clicks. So, theoretically speaking, if I was just looking at that campaign in isolation, there might not have been enough information to be a negative match. But since you have so many negative or clicks with no sales in one campaign, do you just go ahead and say you know what, across the board, I don't want this keyword showing up in any of these campaigns. Or do you let the number? Do you let it roll? Do you let it ride in those other campaigns? Matt: Yeah, so great question. This is actually a feature pack view that we use every single day because you see a lot of variance in this and even like moving keywords over to exact match. But it may be in phrase that have dead like a third of what your exact match one is. Whatever reason, the phrase one is serving like crazy and you're getting sales. The exact match one isn't. So we look at this daily and we're trying to figure out one like why isn't our exact match getting served? Like hey, what's going on here? And adjusting the bids and keeping a close eye on it. But typically if we're seeing performance elsewhere, we'll keep it on, mainly because we don't know exactly where that ad is appearing Like. I mean, we now know like top of search, rest of search, product pages, but we don't really know granular details. This is also something that pack view does really well. When you have your share of voice turned on, you can see exactly where your ads appearing and what placement, what percentage of time. So using pack view or actually I don't know any other tools that do it as deep as pack view does on that We've been able to really narrow it down and figure out like, hey, this one's performing really well and slot four of ad positions. Like we can't get served for this one and slot two or three, and we can readjust our entire strategy for that keyword for position four and actually set up automations in pack view to make sure we're always in sponsored position four. Bradley Sutton: Nice. Now, speaking of that, how are you keeping at top of search? You know like I'm kind of old school where you know you're more old school than me, but you know like in my days when I first started learning PPC, there was no, you know, top of search modifier and things like that. You just raise and lower the bits and I kind of kept doing that because, like you know, I obviously with helium 10, like I'll turn on the boost and keyword tracker and it's checking 24 times a day, rotating, you know addresses and browsing scenarios. So I kind of like, no, am I showing up in top of search and sponsor or not? And I've just kind of like kept doing that. Now, are you still doing that, or do you use those those? You know like, hey, I'm going to go 200% for top of search or some kind of formula like that. Matt: Yeah. So I'll say when the bid modifiers first came out like they were amazing. We could bid like 60 cents with 900% top of search and get crazy conversions and everything was great. Too many people are using them now and it's kind of just a battle of who's going to pay more to get that position. What we've actually switched most accounts over to is actually using pack view organic and paid position bidding. So we'll set up rules to basically increase the bids until we're in position one and that will like set our new base bid if we're going for top of search and then we'll use that and then look at our percentage of serving time through pack view into that and adjust as needed. Like. One nice feature is you can set like I want a 90% top of search share of voice for this keyword and pack view will automatically update your bid without the modifiers, because sometimes using the modifiers can get out of hand quickly and you could spend your whole budget and one day, if the keywords big enough, within a few hours on one of the 50 keywords in your campaign. So we really rely on pack view to figure a lot of that out for us and optimize the perfect position for ads and we've kind of stepped back away from modifiers. The one place we do still use them quite frequently, though, is product page modifiers. We do a lot of product targeting where that's really what we're going after, and it does seem to still work well for us there. Rest of search hasn't been a great modifier for us as of yet. We have better success using set rules and pack view to manage that versus the rest of search modifier. Bradley Sutton: OK, cool, I got a fight to bring that into Adtomic. I didn't know that pack view had that Nice Two part question here from Duda how do you use these keywords Electrolyte protein phrase match and then electrolyte protein powder phrase match? My issue is that they are my main keyword but they generate different variations in customer search terms with different variations. With only one click or two, the most Out of those 50 different search terms that get that those main keywords are generated. How do I pick those that convert it? So I'm assuming that he's got two targets here and that maybe he's getting clicks on a whole bunch of long tail versions of this. Perhaps, if I'm deciphering this correctly. Matt: Yeah. So it depends on how that campaign is set up. So a typical phrase match campaign for us we would never put those keywords into the same ad group or campaign because electrolyte protein is electrolyte protein powder phrase. If you do have them split out into separate campaigns, if you have different bids there, one's going to serve over the other always. You have no real control in that. So I would say if it were me, I would just do electrolyte protein as a phrase match and get rid of any type of variation possible and use that as my guiding light. If you aren't getting served typically I know that's a high volume category your budgets probably aren't enough within that campaign to keep it serving constantly and you're getting middle of page or bottom of page placements. So that's how it's getting your budget throughout the day. I would test increasing the budget on that campaign and seeing what it scales up to and you'll probably see a bit more even click distribution between those. Bradley Sutton: OK, Cool. Sergio has a question here. Hey say, when launching, you tell your friends and family your brand and your product and hey, go buy it. Should I do an exact campaign for the brand name so they don't have to scroll? So first of all, at least it's good that you're like, don't be doing search, find, buy things or something which it sounds like you're not. Otherwise you wouldn't even have this question and hopefully you're telling your friends and family, do not leave your reviews just at all, to make sure that you're not getting in trouble with Amazon. But yeah, if you're trying to get your friends to support your product, I mean I think regardless, if you're trying to get your friends and family to support your product, shouldn't you always target your brand name, or that's only kind of like when you're more of a mature brand, Does that really come into play? What do you think? Matt: Yeah, I would say it depends on your brand name. If it's a unique brand name that, like nothing else is really going to come up for, like yeah, I wouldn't run ads. But if it's something that could be construed as something else, I would definitely run some ads to get towards the top. The one thing I would say about this and it's something that we do when we're launching and you're telling friends, family, anyone about it, we leave it kind of bland and just say, hey, this is my brand and it's a protein powder. I would really appreciate if you can buy it. You're not telling them to go search, fine, by keywords. But if you tell them that, hey, it's protein powder, and brand names are probably going to search protein powder, that brand name without you doing anything, Because it's always better, which is why search fine buys work to get a real keyword in there beyond your brand. But even just pumping the brand name does work as well. We've seen it with TikTok. Brand name searches can skyrocket you for every other keyword that you're relevant for. Bradley Sutton: William says yeah, this is a universal question, I think, or universal debate, I think. For successful exact keywords, do you recommend making those keywords negative in the broad? Some people teach that although you're converting for a keyword in the exact, do not remove that keyword from broad. Matt: Yes, this is debated quite a bit and I'll tell you from our experience it can kind of go either way, like sometimes we'll negate it in broad and then the exact stops performing. Sometimes we'll leave it and the broad performs better. Like it can go either way. I would say it's something that you should definitely test. Amazon ads is still kind of finicky on some of these things. For whatever reason. Older campaigns still tend to work better for us. So if your broad campaigns older than your exact match, it may still continue to outperform for a little bit. But what we do typically do is if we're going to leave it in broad, we lower the bids in broad I'm not specific keyword quite a bit and try and give the exact match as much room to run as it possibly could. Bradley Sutton: OK, cool, let's see. Hina has a question. I have 10 variations. They're not page one ranked. What strategy can I apply to get a good conversion on it? So I'm not sure exactly what he's saying here. But let me just change this into another question here. Like I've got betting that has a bunch of variations, or a consumable that has a whole bunch of different flavors, are you putting all the variations into one campaign? Do you have different campaigns for each variation? Do you only promote maybe one or two child items out of the whole variation? What's your strategy on variation items for PBC? Matt: Yeah, so we run a lot of variations. This is the one place where we do run ad groups. So our main products, the main variation, is flavored. So if someone's searching for a lemon flavored one, you obviously don't want that running against a chocolate flavored one. So an exact match campaign would have an ad group for each flavor and we'd be breaking out the different flavor variances within there. If it's a more broad term that doesn't include a flavor name, we're usually pushing it towards our hero product within that variation. But something that you can definitely test. I would say one thing to look at is search query performance and also the top I think they call it top search term report Now it used to be the old brand analytics report and see what the other top click products are. In our instance, if someone's searching for a sugar cookie, it may be that they're searching for a specific flavor and you can see that by the click through rate and a commercial rates from brand analytics. Bradley Sutton: Cool. Now, before we get into your final strategy of the day, can you talk a little bit about clear ads? I mean who you know, who, who you guys might be able to help the most, and what you guys do. Matt: Yeah, definitely. Um, so we're an ads agency um based in the UK. Um, we work with sellers and actually every single amazon marketplace now, so can help you across the board there. Um, we also do offer like full service management. So if you're looking for content creation, lipstein optimizations or even just day to day like inventory management, case log management, we can help you with all of it. Um, we also run DSPs, so pretty much a to z on amazon, we've got you covered. Um, and many of you may know George Um the founder. Um, he's everywhere. Um, so, yeah, head us up if you need any help with any of those things. Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome, all right, now um 60 second strategy of the day could be about PPC. It could be about search career performance. Could be about how to live as a foreigner in Barcelona. It could be about anything you want, so go ahead. Matt: All right, um, so I'm going to take it away and I'm going to do. Uh, outside traffic to amazon Um, so I think one of the big questions that search career report has brought up with a lot of people is like, hey, these sales numbers in here are extremely low. I know I'm selling more for this keyword or this product. Like, why isn't this represented? And I think majority of people don't ever look at outside traffic to listings and what's happening. But if you actually take the time to dive deeper, you would be amazed at how much traffic comes straight to your listing from other sources outside of amazon. Um. One great way to do this is how we do it. Um, you can use SCM, rush or a trust or really any kind of SEO tool. Plug in your canonical um amazon URL and just see, like, what articles have been written about you that you know nothing about, where you're getting posted on social. It will highlight all of these things. Um, but really the big key factor that we've been looking at is if you have a competitor in your category that you just you can't figure out how they're doing things. Chances are it's all coming from outside of amazon and that's why you can't compete. So doing this simple search, you can see like, hey, these are the bloggers that are talking about it, these are the articles that they got. You can reach out to those people directly. Most of those positions are paid. Like, don't trust any of those top 10 articles, they're all paid. Um, you can reach out and pay for those, and sites like a H refs SCM rush will tell you how much traffic that bloggers are, so you can kind of estimate what your return is going to be on that dollar. Um, I would say another big piece that we've been kind of working on for these is for a lot of terms like your, your coffin example. Matt: Like there's no one out there that has a website about coffins, like that specific product, it would take you with AI a few days to whip together a basic word press site that has everything you would ever want to know about small coffins and since no one else is writing about that, you're going to rank in Google like top three within a few weeks. If you're in these categories where there isn't that much competition or it's a unique product, start making some micro sites. Um, like I've shared some examples at some prior events and presentations, we have a few of these micro sites that are giving us seven to 8000 people a month now to our Amazon listings, and we used AI for the entire process. Um, so it took us maybe an hour per site and they just continue to produce. And the big thing with that is it's a traffic channel that no one else can really steal from you, because most people aren't looking at this and you'll always kind of stay at the top of your category because your velocities will just always be higher. Bradley Sutton: That might be something I'd like to dive into, if you are able to come out in January. Like your step by step case study on that, that sounds fascinating. Alright, well, matt, thank you so much for joining us. I know it's late over there. I appreciate it and hopefully we get to see you in January. Matt: Sounds good. Thanks for having me.

Welcome episode 223 of The CloudPod Podcast! It's a full house - Justin, Matt, Ryan, and Jonathan are all here this week to discuss all the cloud news you need. This week, cost optimization is the big one, with a deep dive on the newest AWS blog. Additionally, we've got updates to BigQuery, Google's Health Service, managed services for Prometheus, and more. Titles we almost went with this week:

With the latest bipartisan legislation that aims to release records of technological AND biological intelligence, we thought it'd be fun to tackle some classic tales of encounters with alien beings!From a fist fight with short-squatch to creepy alien clowns, we've got some tittl-ating tales from the past to— Tittl-ate??… Yeah, real funny, Matt… So charge your glasses and join us for an all new Cosmic Cantina!#UFOtwitter #UFO #UAP #UFOs #UAPshttps://www.thecosmiccantina.com/https://thehill.com/opinion/technology/4101345-non-human-intelligence-schumer-proposes-stunning-new-ufo-legislation/https://ufologie.patrickgross.org/ce3/1954-11-29-venezuela-petare.htmhttps://obscurban-legend.fandom.com/wiki/The_Sandown_ClownThis show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/3670839/advertisement

Welcome to the newest episode of The Cloud Pod podcast - where the forecast is always cloudy! Today your hosts Justin, Jonathan, and Matt discuss all things cloud and AI, as well as some really interesting forays into quantum computing, changes to Google domains, Google accusing Microsoft of cloud monopoly shenanigans, and the fact that Azure wants all your industry secrets. Also, Finops and all the logs you could hope for. Are your secrets safe? Better tune in and find out!  Titles we almost went with this week: The Cloud Pod Adds Domains to the Killed by Google list The Cloud Pod Whispers it's Secrets to Azure OpenAI The Cloud Pod Accuses the Cloud of Being a Monopoly The Cloud Pod Does Not Pass Go and Does Not collect $200 A big thanks to this week's sponsor: Foghorn Consulting, provides top-notch cloud and DevOps engineers to the world's most innovative companies. Initiatives stalled because you have trouble hiring?  Foghorn can be burning down your DevOps and Cloud backlogs as soon as next week.

 Find out how building your workplace culture starts at the heart of your narrative Learn more about how you can unlock your brand's potential through alignment Understand the importance of bringing accountability to the alignment of your workplace Resources/Links: Want to know how you can change the world through your brand? Click here: www.mrmattdavies.me Summary Have you been struggling with keeping your team aligned? Do you want to know the secret of how you can keep your team intact without the need for constant rehires or micromanagement? Rehiring isn't always the answer to your problems. Building a workplace culture that will keep your team aligned and all ideas valued is crucial to the growth and success of your business. Matt Davies is a brand and culture strategist. He helps business leaders develop and align around powerful brand strategies which inspire. He was also recently listed as one of the UK's Top 50 Business Advisors. Sit back and listen to Matt as he talks about one of the best strategies for saving your team and business– making a workplace culture through your narrative. Check out these episode highlights: 02:12 - Matt's ideal client: So I like to work with Maverick leaders, Maverick CEOs, usually, or it could be anyone on the C-suite who basically wants to make change happen. But when they look behind them, they just feel like they slowed down. 03:03 - The problem he helps solve: I think what they see when they look inside their organization is misalignment. There is no kind of glorious kind of narrative that everybody's sort of pulling towards. Often, people are in it for themselves. 04:10 - The symptoms of the problem: I think one of the biggest things is they see a lot of churn in the business. So I mean, this is quite an obvious symptom. There's a lot of people coming and going. 05:42 - Clients' common mistakes before consulting Matt: So really interesting. I think what some leaders do, you know, is that they try and fix bits, right? So they'll parachute themselves in, or they'll try and go in, and they'll sort something out. 06:45 - Matt's Valuable Free Action (VFA): So I've got a framework, which kind of takes people through what I call, first of all, "Finding the big idea". This is kind of known as your brand purpose. 07:46 - Matt's Valuable Free Resource (VFR): Want to know how you can change the world through your brand? Click here: www.mrmattdavies.me 08:21 - Q: How many years did it take me to grow this beard? A: Many years is the answer. Many, many years! Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode: “You've got to find your big idea, which is at the heart of your narrative, and everything needs to ladder into that.” -Matt DaviesClick To Tweet Transcript (Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast) Tom Poland 00:10 Greetings, everyone, and a very warm welcome to another edition of Marketing the Invisible. I am joined today by one of the world's great endurance athletes because this is actually the fourth time we had this interview scheduled. And with COVID, and it's all been my bad, I've had to ask Matt to postpone three times. So the fourth time's the charm apparently, Matt. A very warm welcome to the show. And thank you so much for your persistence. Matt Davies 0:34 I'm so excited to be here. Thank you, Tom. Tom Poland 00:36 Where are you hanging out? Whereabouts in the world are you? Matt Davies 00:39 I am in a place called Carmarthenshire show which is in Wales in the UK. I come from London and the Midlands in the UK, and we recently landed here, but it's a lovely part of the world. Beautiful, lush green landscapes! So if you're in Australia, think about that. Tom Poland 00:54 Beautiful! And what,

Allen Welcome passive traders to another episode. Today, I have a big announcement. And I have a first for the podcast, which is really interesting. I'm going to tell you the first before we get into the announcement. The first is that for the first time we are having a husband and wife, team, actually, we're going to find out if they're a team or not. But they're both traders. And they're both doing well. And they've been doing it for a while. So I wanted to get their opinion on how trading works in a family how trading works in a relationship, how to not get on each other's toes. So I have today, Mr. And Mrs. Matt and Margaret Ambrosi. Welcome, guys, thank you for doing this. Matt Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for having us. Allen Now, the big announcement, we probably should have done it better and differently. But Matt is now full time as an option genius coach. So we are very happy to have Matt on board. And he's already made a big difference in several people's lives. He's getting more, more happy comments, or, you know, people coming together to have a wonderful he's doing he's getting more than I am. So I think I got the right person for the job. And if you if you see Matt, or you hear the voice, and it's kind of familiar, we did do an interview with Matt back in episode 110. So 110, and that he actually gave us a story of how he got started what he was doing. And at that point, his job, his role, or his, his goal of trading was mainly to replace his current income through trading options. So I think he's, he's come a long way since then, as a trader, and just emotionally and as a person. So, guys, welcome. And Matt, thank you again, for coming on board the team, it's been really awesome to work with you and to see you take the reins, and you know, it's only made the company stronger and better, and our customers are loving it. So they're really excited. Matt I really appreciate that Alan, you know, I couldn't be more excited. I mean, I have a real passion for this. And it's a real dream to, to do a job and and really fulfill that passion. So thank you. Allen Yep, yeah, I mean, you know, one of my mentors had told me he's like, you know, in your programs, you should have a lot more interaction with the, with the students. And I'm like, I don't have time for that. He goes, well, then you need to get a coach, we need to get some other coaches on board. And I'm like, Okay, where do I find these people? They're like, don't you have students? I'm like, yeah. You know, but they're all trying to retire. Like, they'll try to quit their jobs. He goes, No, I bet you there's some that are really good at teaching. They're really love people. And they would be happy to do this on a full time basis, or even like a part time basis, and just help other people. And I was like, huh, and I thought about that about and Matt was like almost one of the first people I thought of and I'm like, Hey, let me give him a call. And I'm sure he came out of the blue for you. And you were shocked. Matt So I mean, I really enjoy, I really enjoy helping people at the core of my being. And, you know, I just love seeing the light go off in people's minds when they see a trade and they see it work out and they see that everything's a possibility, just like it was for me. So I'm really excited to be part of it. Cool. And then Margaret a this question is for you. So he comes, he comes to you and says, Hey, you know, I've been working at Costco for I don't know, what, 1415 years or something. Yeah. And he's like, he's like, I just got this other job offer. I'm gonna What do you think? Yeah. Margaret There's a whole story. There's a whole nother story. When he got that call, because I mean, we were definitely both shocked. But I think what you just said reminded me of what a good coach Matt was before he even worked at Option Genius. Because when we we started at let's say, when we got married seven years ago, we we were both on the same page about being financially free. And what what does that look like? Matt was definitely more of a researcher in terms of he would read a book, he would, he would give it to me. And so I think we were on, we've been on board on the same page, what to do. And then when we found you, and started learning your methods, we both latched on to it. So when you caught him, I think I was just excited because I knew it was something he really wanted to do. I had already seen him in a coaching role with me and his mom and his sister of trying to like the backend stuff, right? The things that are the charts, the systems, getting your platform set up. Those are things that are challenging and takes a lot of time. And so I was like, I think I was super excited. I knew he could do it. I knew it'd be great at it. And so I just thank you for giving him the opportunity because it's really been wonderful for him to do this thing that he loves anyway. I mean, he was already before he worked for you, in the mornings before he would go to work. Its full time job was studying and learning. And so, yeah, it just was really exciting. Thank you for that. I guess we had the trust, right. The trust was already there. So. Allen Okay. Yeah, now he's doing wonderful. And, you know, he's gonna be trading at the hedge fund as well when that happened. So that's going to be exciting. So a whole new level. So awesome. Cool. All right. So let's get into you guys. All right, so the trading couple and it's not just I know for Matt, you know, he's not just a trading couple. He's got the whole trading family going on there. He told me that he and his wife and his mom and his sister all get together and have trade night. What is that? Matt So it just kind of started, you know, my, my parents live in South Carolina, we're in Georgia, and my sister is up in Massachusetts. And it was a good way. They were always interested in what I was doing. And they always wanted to learn what I was doing. So it just became natural that I would say, hey, let's just have a call. And we'll talk about it. And then I showed them how to, you know, do the platform, and you know, they had all their feelings about whether they're going to do it correctly. And all the all the fears, just like I had when I started, and I was like, Okay, well, we just started going through it. And we started meeting kind of regularly on Fridays. And it was usually Friday, like, nine 930 in the morning. And we'd meet for about an hour and we talk about it. And then it just kind of progressed and was like okay, let's do this next Friday, okay, let's do the next Friday, let's do the next Friday, next Friday, and then just became we'd call it trade top Fridays. And you know, and then started being like, if we miss one, you know, let's say my sister couldn't make it. She'd be upset, like, Oh, I gotta I gotta make it or my mother missed it, she would be upset. So we, we were there every day, you know, and then Margaret would come in here and there and it just kind of evolved. So it was really a really great experience. And then it kept us really connected. I mean, in ways that I wouldn't think you know.. Margaret And you get to learn other parts of your family members and their personalities that you didn't know before. Allen Mm hmm. I can imagine. Yeah. I mean, people's personality comes out when they're like, frustrated, or when they're Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You were saying that a little bit earlier that your mom kind of surprised you, you know, going all aggressive on you. Matt She still does. I mean, there's like, I'm just like, you know, she'll tell us like, Oh, she did something. And then she'll like, say to my sister, oh, I got out of this trade. She's like you did? What? How do you get out of that trade? You didn't tell me about it? And it's like, yeah, they're like, they go back and forth. But it's all in solid, good. You know? Margaret Yeah, once she has the parameters, then she, she'll get a little bit more risky that she said, a differentiated, she told us it's like she's at a different age where she feels like she can take a little different risk than we can. Yeah. So it makes it makes a difference. Matt That's interesting. It also goes back and forth. I mean, my sister, she put on a trade, she was getting into a new trade that we're doing. And then my mother was like, kind of hesitant about getting into it. And my sister just went ahead and did it. And then my mother's like, Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, like hours later, she she's like, I'm like, what happened? She's like, Oh, I put a trade on. Like, because my sister went ahead and did it. So they kind of play off each other. So Allen that's cool. Because normally, it's the opposite. You know, it's like, the older you get, the more conservative is like, oh, no, I don't want to lose that or lose. The younger people take more risk, but over here are flipped. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. But that I love it, how you're using something to bond, you know. And it's so rare nowadays, especially everybody's spread out across the country. It's like, oh, yeah, we get together on Thanksgiving. Yeah. Okay. Great. You guys get together every week. That's I love it. That's, that's wonderful. Yeah. I think more families need to find something in common like that. And like trading? Yeah. I mean, because the way we do it, everybody can find their own little niche, you know, yeah. Everybody can be conservative or aggressive or whatever. And yeah, I love it. Cool. So, um, how did you guys get into trading? Matt Oh, well, I mean, it was always long term for me. So I was learning about long term investing through reading and then while we actually, Margaret yeah, since you were 29, he started investing. And then we went to one seminar together. And there was a man who was sitting next to us, and he said, uh, you could self manage your portfolio. And we looked at each other and we're like, never worry, That's too scary. It's too risky. We gotta leave that to the professionals. There's reason that people get paid money to do that. And he made it seem like it was no big deal at all. And I think he was he, yeah, that was a pivotal point. And then after that, We went to a couple other seminars together. And then I think the the really the one that we learned about options was three years ago. And at that one, we I had never even heard the term option. I didn't know what an option was. We went to go find out about long term investing and how to value stocks in order to know if it's a good purchase or not. And then at that seminar, we just sat back and because they showed us how to do an option, and and then after that we met found you and he because he was looking for people who did a similar strategy. And then it after we Yeah, so that's how we got into it. Matt Right. And they, they basically started this seminar off with an option. And we're like, Oh, I thought we were coming here to long term invest. And I didn't, you know, we didn't know anything, how options work. We're trying to figure out how it did right there. And then this guy's like, Oh, I just made $7,000. And you're like, show me how you're just like, whatever you just did, like you have my attention. How did you do that? And I was like, on a, I was possessed to figure it out. I mean, Margaret, she's smarter than I am. In some ways, yes, definitely. She was like, this is a funnel, like, marketing, marketing funnel and Margaret figure it all out. And thanks for just calm down. Matt It's just she sat back, I'll relax. And I was like, I'm trying to figure it out. And but we progressed. And, you know, it really opened the whole a whole new world, really. And then, you know, we met you. Margaret And it's just a progression to back up to because that's where we started trading with our family with his mom and sister. So after we learned that strategy, and we were all trading together, that's where the, the trade top Fridays came from. So that was kind of a cool thing that came from that. Allen Okay, so from the beginning, you guys were like, Okay, we're doing this together. It's not like, you know, because Margaret, you have your own company. And if anybody wants to know, she does great videography, and photos for real estate agents, and you guys are located where? Margaret Just north of Atlanta. Allen Just north of Atlanta. So if any realtors are out there. Margaret And I'm glad you mentioned that, because honestly, the reason I want to trade is because I am getting older. I've been a creative for 20 years, and the old body isn't getting any younger. So at some point, I will not be able to schlep video gear and photography gear around, and I want to have some home, what gives me the security and knowing that I can bring in my paycheck that I'm accustomed to it on my own. But we definitely talk about our strategies together. Allen Right, exactly. So, okay, so But you said like, okay, so he's working full time you have your business, but you guys still decided, hey, we're gonna go this road together, we're gonna learn together, we're gonna go the seminars together, we're gonna talk about it. And then do you guys trade in the same account together? Or is it separate? How does that work? Matt We kind of did in the beginning. And then we realized that it was best to have separate accounts, we do everything we talk about everything together. It's just I think that's really smart. Everyone's different. But I think for us, it works that we have separate accounts, because it kind of gives you the flexibility for the trading the fit your personality, and everyone's personalitie's different, you know, even though we're married, we're different personalities. So that reflects in that account, I think. Margaret And the cool part is, we both fund each other's accounts. So when there's money that we have to put into the account to get it started, we weren't going at an equal pace, if that makes sense. Matt Right. So like, for example, I would get a bonus from Costco, I'd split that bonus, put it into our account separately, she would get a bonus, she would put that money into our accounts, and then we're trading the strategies under those two accounts. Allen Okay, so do you have any joint money like a joint account? Margaret Not for not in a brokerage account? No. I mean, we're, we're each other's beneficiaries. But yeah, right. And I think part of that, too, Alan comes from me at I was not married for 36 years, and I am very customed to taking care of myself and producing my own income, and having my own money, you know, just to be quite frank about it. I want to make sure that I can take care of myself if anything ever happened to Matt, but we definitely we know what each other's logins are. We know what the money's in there. So that part's very open. It's not like they don't share the information. But I think that's a good point about having a different trading style because I am a little more aggressive than Matt is, and we learned that we didn't know that going in, but I will jump into things a little quicker than he does and he wants to be Yeah, wants to have all the information. Matt Those are things we learned about it To think that I was not as conservative as I am. But I realized that I'm a very conservative trader. I like to know everything about everything before I jump in, and sometimes that can hinder you, Margaret, she's like, let's get to it. Let's figure it out. And she jumps in. And I'm really admire that part of her. I really do. Margaret And as long as it works out, Matt she's I say she's measured, you know, she doesn't just jump into things. She's measured about it. Allen Yeah. But like, Margaret, what you said about the, you know, having, I guess, I don't know, for for a lot of women, it's a it's a fear. But it's also about a sense of security. And a lot of our customers are, you know, are the customers that come to us, and they come in, they're like, you know, my spouse doesn't want me trading, or when my spouse would rather have me working, because that paycheck comes in regular. I remember when I first started, even, even though I was, in the beginning, I was horrible. I lost a lot of my wife's money. But after I got good at it, she still was not comfortable with the trading, because she would be like, Okay, I don't know, if you're going to make money every month, you know? Because that's just the way it is. And so she's like, Can you do something pleased to have something regular come in? And that's probably the biggest motivation behind the company option genius. Was that, hey, even if I have a little bit, you know, obviously, I'm supposed to be a small little one person company. And is like, even if I have a little bit like, like a, you know, like, five $6,000 coming in a month. Okay, cool. She'll know that, you know, because she still wanted to work. So she knows something's coming in. But that's, that's just, I think it's ingrained in a lot of spouses that are not generating an income on their own that, hey, I need some consistency. So that's been a big for a lot of people. That's a big, you know, switch. Like to go from Yeah, my wife my husband makes or my wife makes x dollars per month to Yeah, I don't know, if he's gonna make any money. Margaret Yeah, I can see how that would be difficult. Because I mean, we're still both bringing in incomes and trading at the same time. Yeah. Matt Yeah, it's a big shift, a mindset shift. But I think the thing about trading is that, you know, when you're working a static job, you have that income, like you said, it's coming in monthly, you can rely on it. But the real benefit of trading, I think, is that you don't see used to see money as you exchange your paycheck for time. And in trading. You can just, you can just make money, and you don't have to sit there for that time. No, it's, you look as money is finite, in your mind, okay? When you look at trading, you work with trading, it's like, it just opens up to you. Margaret It's more of an energy like it goes out comes and goes out. Exactly. Yeah. Matt So I'm trying to say, Allen interesting. That's a good way to look at it. Yeah. So then have this written down? Okay, I'm gonna ask it or I don't know if which one of you is a better trader? Margaret So how do you define better? Allen I guess, who makes the most money? Matt I will say that I wrote this in a lot of books. And I believe that to be true as a women's are much better emotionally, as traders, I believe that I really do because guys are gonna over are like our macho, we just gotta just get in there and do it. And, you know, but in general, I think women are much, much better emotional trading style. Margaret I will just say last year, Matt made more money than I did. But this year, I've made more money than Matt did. So there you go.. Matt But I'm built for the long. Nothing short term with me. We actually nickname each other Margaret's short term, and I'm on long term, Margaret Yeah, I like short term, you know, I'm an entrepreneur. So I like to see things happen in a timely fashion. I live and breathe it, you know. And so I had do struggle with the long term stuff. One day, I would be curious to see what it would like be like to do long term put that. We'll see about that, you know, I like I like the shorter term gains. Matt But yeah, I mean, that's all part of your personality. So we I think we play off each other very well, you know? Yeah. Allen Yeah. It seems like you guys have a good balance. So then, like, if there's a disagreement, then how do you guys handle that? Or is it just, you know, you do whatever you want your account? I'll do whatever I want to my account. Margaret Yeah, well, we talk about what strike prices we're going to be at, and where, you know, kind of idea of what we both want to do. And then we may be a couple points different from each other. Matt Yeah, but we stay within the rules. And I think you know, the great thing about the strategies that you teach and that we've learned is that there's some flexibility in that, okay, as you get better as a trader, it's just not the rules, right? You know, it's just not like, Oh, get out here. And that's it, there's a little bit of flexibility, I think as you get better as a trader, you get more experienced behind you, you're able to kind of fudge the lines a little bit, if you will, not in a bad way, but be like, okay, you know, I know this, I have a little more experience, I can become a better trader. So it's like, that's the whole flexibility part. Margaret Right. And I think, too, just just thinking about how sometimes Matt will stay in a trade longer than me, and I'll get out quicker. Here's a good example. So this month, in our oil trading, I have tripled up, I've gotten in and gotten out three times, and he stayed in the whole time. You know, and I know, during the classes, there's a couple of other people in our class, when we're on the queue that do the same thing. And then some people will sit and so I think it just depends, and I don't know that it would work as well. For us, if we had one account, I just love having our separate accounts, where we get to talk about what we're gonna do and then have the freedom to.. Matt I think the key is that we talk about it. Yeah, I mean, if you don't talk about things between each other, it's just not gonna work. Yeah. So you're like, Okay, you're gonna go that at least I know about it, right. And then you can see how it works out, right. And then at least you know, what, what's going on, you know, it's different, if you just have a count, and you're just doing your own thing, and you're not talking about it. Margaret The, the emotions part is very real. And I don't think you can really understand that until you start to become a trader, and you see where the trade is. And you get to know yourself better, where in the beginning, we were a lot quicker to get out of a trade if it went a certain way. And now we've learned a little bit more of the rhythms, we know each other's rhythms. And so we don't we don't freak out either way, quite as much. Matt: But you got to look at it. Like in totality. I mean, nothing's the end of the world. Right? And with trading, you may lose money, and you probably will, okay, everybody's lost money. And experience is not cheap. Right? With that happening. It's, it's okay, you know, if nothing is, you treat money as, okay, you can be lost, and it can be one. And the whole idea of trading is getting consistent as a whole thing. And it's like, as you get better and better as a trader, I really believe in my core, you try everyone's trying to build that consistency. Okay, and you have to match your personality to that consistency Margaret: Do you also mean make money? Because that's my goal. Matt: Yes, consistently, or us to make money. But you need to be consistent to do that. Allen: So yeah. Well, like I say, In the beginning, it's not about making money. In the beginning, it's just about not losing money. So knowing what you do properly. And like, even if you don't make any money, that's okay. But you don't lose it month after month after month. Okay, I know, it's annoying, but that's a good thing. And then, you know, we could just do a little tweak here and there, and then then the the profits start taking off. So I totally agree with that. And see, because a lot of people that sell options, they'll tell you, Oh, yeah, you know, I have great months, and then I have a big loss. And then I have good months and have nobody wants to be on that roller coaster. Because eventually you're like, man, what am I doing? Matt: I mean, do you want to go make money in the beginning of the year, at the end of the year, you've lost money or just break even? It's, that's frustrating, you know? So the whole goal is to, you know, especially what you said in the beginning, it's very true. Yeah. Allen: So now you guys said that communication was key. So do you have any rules around that? Do you have like, do you like get together and say, okay, besides the trade trade talk, you know, when you have that, do you actually sit down and be like, alright, half an hour debrief, what do we do this week? How are we going to improve? Or is it just, Matt: I think I know what you're gonna go to. I think, I think, for us, and this is just for us, but a big part. And a lot of people think it's a dirty word. But a budget, we always had a budget always kept us in line, you know, and it's like, whenever we've kind of rapidly spending, you know, and aren't talking about trading, we're just talking about life and your budget, it always get us back on the road, so to speak. So that was a big piece of our communication. So it's just knowing that we're kind of on the road. So I think that flows into your trading and it flows into your communication. So I think that's a really big piece. Margaret: Yeah. And I would say like specific rules about communicating around trading, we've never said anything. It's just kind of happened organically. And we will, you know, there's there certain parameters that you teach in your class and we get in at a certain time and when we do that, we will talk to each other that day, and then we check it both together, generally in the morning, and we'll just kind of go Oh, or Yeah, and commit Write together or celebrate together. And then that I think, I guess that's the organic piece. We just check in with each other in the morning. Matt: Be like, Fine, quick text during the day, you know? Yeah. Margaret: Yeah. Because Matt is watching it for his day job. And he'll text me if something, you know, hey, keep your as open. This is happening or, but yeah, so I guess that's it like we wake up in the morning. We look at it, we chat about it, and then throughout the day, he'll text me. Or maybe if I'm doing something, I'll text him and say, Hey, have you seen? And he always says yes. But yeah, that's it. Okay, Allen: Cool. So what happens when one of you wins and the other loses? Matt: That's a good question. Well, yeah, I've lost before I've lost my I lost. I lost before. And oh, yeah. Oh. Yeah Margaret: Jog my memory. Okay. So I'm going to just tell myself here in the beginning, before we found your class, and I'm not just saying this, because this is true. So it's just true. We cannot say how much of course we lost $5,000. So $5,000 is, is a lot of work for me. And I, I am the one who had funded it that month, to the account, and Matt lost it. And we we realized then, that that was really tough. That was tough on me, it was tougher on me than it was him. And actually, our trade talk Fridays, were really good, because they had also lost the money. And I had lost a little bit, but not as much. We were all just really disheartened and frustrated. And I think I think I was a little mean was a little mean, Matt: Slightly slightly. Are you sure you can do this? Well, yeah, feel the weight of that. Right. Yeah. I mean, if you're not, your wife's out there, she's, she's busting her butt to bring in money, and then you just lose it. It's a lot of you feel the way that, you know, you gotta really dig deep and be like, okay, emotionally and you know, everything about to have the confidence to keep going, right? And you got to search and really believe in yourself that you can, you know, like I said, it's not the end of the world, but you have to get through there gonna be times like that. That happened. Margaret: It made me quit trading for a couple months. Yeah, I got really nervous. And then I said, okay, and then actually, that's is that that's about the time we found oil, wasn't it? Like we found oil sometime after that? It seemed to be a little exactly what you're talking about earlier, it wasn't as much of a roller coaster. And that has changed it for me. Allen: Okay, so was there anything else besides finding that strategy that was able to get you through it? Because like, I mean, emotionally, that's a it's a big hit. Right? And did anything change between the way you guys communicated the way you guys traded? Matt: No, I think Margaret took a little hiatus. I'm the type that I never, I never give up on thanks, I will just take it to the death, you know. I'm like, I just keep going no matter what, just get out of my way. No matter how many hits I take, I just keep going. And I leave it all on the table. So I just I knew I was going to keep going. But again, the key and I don't be, Margaret: but you. You did try it a little more conservatively? Didn't you? Matt: Sure. Yeah. I mean, you learn your lessons, you get burned out a little bit, you start to kind of, you know, you remember and you're like, Okay, I don't want to have those same feelings. But let me cautiously kind of figure it, learn from your mistakes, if you will, you know, and treat a little bit more conservative pay a little more attention. What can I learn from that experience? And I think that changes everything. Of course, you know, the strategies that we do, are a lot better, like I'm able to manage our trades so much better. I think that's important. Margaret: I think that's key. And I think that's key for me, knowing interesting that we have better management strategy now makes me feel a lot more secure, and a lot less emotional, and more. What's the word? I'm looking for sure. That Matt and I can both do the trades and not lose that $1,000 chunks anymore. Matt: More confident? Yeah. And I think I've read this before, and I really believe it is that you are your first really job is to become your risk assessor. And then you're a trader. Yeah. So it's like it's really important that you this all we do is assess risk all the time. So I think it's really important to, to focus on that. And once you get better at assessing risk and managing, just become a better trader, but you just kind of have to go through those things. I mean, when I first started trading, they're like, Okay, your first loss is your best loss. And I was like, what does that mean? They don't want to lose you. And like, they said it all the time, like, Oh, your first last year about like, Who is this person? Like, why did he say that to me? I don't want to lose. But it is true. Like, it teaches you things that you just, you think, you know, you like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna get out of that trade, I know what I'm doing. And then you get burned. Everyone's got to touch the stove, apparently, at some point, you know, it's like, Oh, don't touch the stove. It's hot. But of course, we gotta go touch it. But that's just life. I mean, and it's how you react to those situations, I think. And you don't you don't tell yourself that you're not? How are you going to respond to that? Is very important. You know, in all aspects of life as a trader anything. Allen: I mean, a lot of people, you could say that, but it's not as easy when you're going through it. You know, the first time Oh, first time you do it, it's like, ah, people behave in all crazy different ways. Matt: Yeah. Yeah, it's just, you're gonna have to, I guess this, the best way is to do the best you can to bring people through that experience. All right, you can tell them that it's it probably will happen. But how you react to that situation? It's good to kind of tell your future. Margaret: We're model citizens is that? Allen: Well, I mean, they say that, you know, most divorces are caused because of money issues and problems. Yeah. You know, and a lot of people do not see eye to eye on money. And they don't talk about it before they get married. They don't talk about their goals, visions, whatever, or even how to balance it, you know, like, oh, yeah, one is a budget person. One is a non budget, I'm going to spend whatever I can, but it's like, a lot of people have these issues. And it's, it's great to see that you guys are same page, you know, same goal, same like, okay, hey, you guys talked about it ahead of time. Yeah, like, this is our vision. This is the goal. How do we get there, we'll change you know, like, we'll go on a different path. And we'll try and we'll try this. And like, you guys first started with the passive trading course. Right? It puts in the calls and, and then you say, Okay, let's graduate to something else. So then you guys added the oil program. And then you guys have been doing that. So you just added to something. Now you guys have even you know, got you got your own Airbnb now. So congratulations on that. Margaret: Thank you. Allen: So you're diversifying? So yeah, you're trying different things. And nobody says that you can't right. So you should you should work and in us every strategy available to get to whatever your your dream is. So in that sense, you guys have done a bunch of different things. How do you handle it when you disagree? Margaret: Like disagree on? Allen: On the path, disagree on maybe a tray disagree on let's say, you guys did the Airbnb? Maybe Matt would be like, yeah, no, I don't want to do that. And I want to put more money into trading account. Because we already know we're doing well here. Matt: I hate to disappoint. But I don't think we disagree on too much. If we do, it's like, you know, we do. I'm not saying it's easy enough. I mean, marriage is not easy. But we have their situations, I think it's important to you just you take a pause. You kind of realize how you're dealing with it personally, how you're, what you're thinking, what you're you're feeling, and then you come back to that person and you talk about it. Margaret: I think to just thinking about our investments so far, we do things that we are confident in our knowledge base around so I've had a real estate license for five years. And I shoot real estate and I understand real estate. So when I said Hey, Matt, let's buy this, Airbnb. He was like, Okay, sounds like a good investment. You've done the numbers. I trust you. Matt: Yeah, I do. I trust that she's, I've seen it, she's she's in that field, she does the work. She's always trying to figure it out. And I, their word really is trust. I trust her that she's going to do the best she can with it. Margaret: And I think it's about Yeah, I think it's likewise to you, because I trust that he's, he's read. If you could say our library of books, it's literally every book I've ever heard of on finance and investing. And multiple copies probably down. And so I think, I think it all comes back down to we, we because we both feel like we have studied different things. You know, and now Matt learns more about real estate and I, I give him all the credit because I always was interested in retirement and investing but I didn't know where to get started. And so because he had a knowledge base, he kind of brought me up a little bit faster than if I had then what I was able to do on my own right. So that's powerful. And then because I already trusted him so much and then we got to go to all the seminars together. It just build that built that foundation and so now we really don't disagree on Matt: I think part of also is like, I never wanted to push that on Margaret. Yeah, like my interest, right? I have interest in finance. I never wanted to push that it's an interest of mine. Real estates and interests of her. She doesn't push that on me. I don't push that on her. So it was, it becomes organic when you are you, you're interested in yourself, right? You're like, okay, you know, Matt's doing something. I'm interested in that I want to see a little bit more, but it comes from her. It doesn't come from me telling her Oh, you got to check this out. You should check this out. Yeah, that's important. But ultimately, it's gonna be her decision. Right? Yeah, Margaret: You start to for me, I started doing the numbers. Whoa, you can make this on a trade in two minutes. And I make this on how many? How many hours? Does it take me? Yeah, that's a no brainer. Allen: Cool. Okay, so now, so a lot of our customers they've been through. And unfortunately, like, they've gone on a path similar to yours. But I would say that you guys, you know, if you've, if you only started trading, like three years ago, you guys have taken a shorter route than a lot of our customers. Really? Yeah. So they've been trading for multiple years, still trying to figure out like, Hey, how can I make this work? How can I become consistent, profitable, I've tried, you know, XYZ strategy, and this and this, and this, and they've bought cores, and they've been videos and seminars, and, and they still are looking for that something, to get them over the hump, to get them to be like, Oh, finally, I'm actually making some money. Finally, like you said, they're confident that they can, you know, the month is going to start, I have a strategy that works. I'm confident I'll probably make money this month. But they're still not there yet. And because of that, because of them, you know, trying and investing in course, investing in Seminar investing in another doohickey. You know, they have all the things you can buy, like, Oh, hey, you know, that you can buy this indicator, and the indicator will tell you exactly when to buy and when to sell is only $3,000. You know, they're like, Okay, I'm gonna get that, you know, they get it and then they don't doesn't work. And then the wife or the other or the husband, either way, the spouse is like, I can't believe you're wasting all this time, all this energy, all this money on this trading stuff when he doesn't frickin work. You know, you've been trying for years, and it's just not working. It's all a big scam. Right? And that's the big girl. Yeah, it's a big scam that nobody can do this. So what advice or tips or anything? Would you suggest for a trader in that position where their spouse is maybe not very receptive to them continuing to trade? Where the spouse is like, you know, can you just give this up? You know, just spend time with me? Just, you know, Matt: Yeah. I'm gonna let you go first. And I'll go after. Margaret: Okay? Because we, we were not in that specific scenario, I just keep going back to it has to be the trust. So how are you going to build trust with your partner, not when they don't know what you're going through? And then I would say you would have to have some sort of mentor, and to be honest, that is you that that is you for us. Right? So we I remember, when I got the calculator that you sent out of this is where if you this is what you need in order to make the monthly income that you want on the percentage of money, and this is how much money you need in your account. And you've done it, like you've gone before us, we know it can be possible. So we're trusting that what you say is true. And we've seen it and especially now that that works for you. So I think finding somebody that you can put that trust into and having if your partner is not going to be in that with you, at least show them who that is that you're learning from or what they've done. And if if it's if it's not Alan Sama, then make sure that they've got a good record of what they've done. So that, that your partner can have trust in that you're learning from somebody that is credible. You know, the first thing we learned from had learned down the road from somebody who had learned from Warren Buffett, and so, you know, I don't really care about names of people, that doesn't impress me, but when you actually know something that impresses me, and that gives me the assurance to bet on myself. And that's what I would say, would be my advice. Matt: Yeah, I mean, I always went into investing, especially as I, you know, started to learn about options. I was like, I don't want to hear about oh, you can make all this money. You can do all this and everything's going great. I wanted to go and be like, show me how to do it. Right. And then once you show me how to do it, I believe you. And that's just who I am. And I think most people maybe are like that they want proof and they but more importantly they want to be be able to do it themselves, some people don't. But if you're into this and you want to learn, and you have to go into mindset be like, show me how to do it. And then you get the confidence that you can do it yourself, and then you can be able to teach other people. Allen: Okay, nice. Next question I have here is that you guys have been doing this for a little bit together? Are there anything thinking back that you would do differently? So basically, the question is, like, you know, are there any tips that you would give to a couple starting out? Or lesson or something that you felt? You know what, we didn't do that? Right? Maybe we should have done it differently? Margaret: I would. I know that $10,000 was a lot for us, when we bought into your class. It was 100% worth it. And I wish that we would have done that first. Matt: Yes, I think in this world, you know, you don't want to believe it, but you really pay for what you get. You know, it's a hard truth. Lots of people want to be like, oh, I want this for, you know, low money, or I want this, but you got to really look at is it? What's the worth of it? Right? Is it going to be? Margaret: And are you willing to do the work? Matt: Are you willing to do the work? That's a lot of people like, I think the advice I give people is like the least tell yourself before you think something is not worthy, or it doesn't go up to your expectations, at least go through and do the work of what has been laid before you. Okay, so you have all these lessons, and you have all everything, but you have to can you really tell yourself that you put on all the work, when you haven't gone through the class, when you haven't gone through all the, you know, really dug deep to get everything out of it, then you can say whether you want to continue or not, whether it was a failure, whether it was not at least do that. And I think it's important for people that start out, set aside a small amount of money, right? And maybe agree that, okay, if you lose this small amount of money, it's a good idea. Fine, it didn't work out. But at least you agreed on that. And then give it a shot. Yeah. Right. And then maybe if it didn't work out, and you want to go further, we examined it at that point. That way, you know, it's not like a, I lost everything. And it's the end of the world type scenario. At least I gave it a try. You know, I followed my dreams to figure out this on my own. And if you at least put in the effort, you can tell yourself, Margaret: I would like to give your wife major kudos. Since you said you lost a lot of money in the beginning. That's a good woman to keep if she kept supporting you to go forward. Allen: Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm very blessed. I am amazingly blessed. So I just give you a short version of the story. I had just been laid off. And so the question was, and we had just been married recently. And so the idea was, Okay, do I go and get another job? Or do I try something else? And, you know, I had been dabbling with trading. But I was like, maybe I could do this full time. So she's like, Okay, if you think you can do it, go for it. And, of course, I did not have any money. She had money from that she had saved up from working for several years before we got married. So she's like, you know, I have all this in savings. You know, try it. And so then she got a second job to support us. So because I wasn't making anything, so she got the second job. And she's working. She was a nurse. So she was working like three days a week at the at the hospitals, 12 hour shifts. And then on the other day, she would be, they have this thing called home health, where the nurse actually shows up to your house. So she would be driving around town, going from place to place to place, you know, giving injections and IVs and medicines and all that stuff. So very draining, especially with all the traffic and everything. And yeah, and I proceeded to try everything like day trading and futures and forex and commodity options and everything is like nothing was working. And I was down over 40 grand. When I finally actually, I think what turned it around was that she found out because I was hiding it from her. Like I wasn't telling ya that she came on to check the mail. She checked the statement. She's like, where's all the money? Oh, like, oh, yeah, about that. So it was either Yeah, you know, it's like, okay, either go to go get a job right away. Turn this around. Or, you know, if you don't do one of those things, we're probably getting split, right. So I was planning like, I was getting my resume ordered together. And then I found selling options. Like I discovered that Hey, there, there was a trade I did that was actually it worked. And I'm like, Well, what is this? Let me follow up more and then I got into it and I showed her how to do it. She was like, Okay, you have something here. So you'd like you said I did Didn't I put like all the money aside? You know, I stopped playing with all the money. And I took a small amount. And I'm like, Okay, let me see if I could just do something with this, instead of the big amount. And that gave her pause, like, okay, fine, you know, he's not gonna lose all the money. And if I lost that money, then yeah, go get another job. And that's it, end of story. But luckily, I showed her she understood it, it started working. And then you know, then the rest is history from there. Margaret: I can imagine there's some pretty real feelings going on around that. That's Allen: Very stressful. Yeah, very, very stressful. Because she wanted to know what I was doing. But she didn't have any background in finance. You know, her family never talked about investing or anything. So she didn't really know anything about it. Slowly, slowly, I started telling her. And then the funny part is, she would come home, like, and she'd be like, Oh, hey, she got interested, right? And she would come home and she goes, Hey, I checked the news and the markets up today. And I'm like, Yeah, but I'm, you know, I'm in. I'm in calls today. Oh, there she goes, Oh, no, oh, that's too bad. You know? And then two days later, she'd be like, Oh, look, I checked in the markets down today. I'm like, No. I mean, Puts today. She would like she did, she wouldn't know if I'm gonna be happy or sad. But she was nuts. But yeah, so and then after a while, then it got good. And like I said, you know, she wanted that stability. She didn't want that up and down. She's like, I need something stable income, so I can quit the second job, take okay. And then she was able to quit the first job. And then so it worked out. But yeah, it was a long, hard road. And I did not have the mentor that you mentioned, you know, so that was one of the probably the biggest things that if I could have found somebody that could have just pulled my hand be like, here, this works, just follow this plan. Margaret: You know, that's why we got to shortcut it. Yeah. Allen: But.. Matt: I think that is a hard thing. Because you're always trying to search for, you know, they're always there numerous or many mentors out in the world, it's like, is trying to find who's true, right? That's it's very difficult. And you you have a guard up, everyone's got their guard up. And they're always kind of like, is this person trying to take me or, you know, I don't feel right about this person, I maybe feel right about this person. I mean, just look at FTX. I mean, that guy that was like darling, and crypto. And then they find out he's, he's, you know, a Bernie Madoff. So it's like, it happens over and over again. So that's kind of how I got into trading. I was like, show me how to do it, and see if it worked, right. And you're not only a mentor, but you show people how to do it. And then you can build trust in yourself, rather than, you know, of course, a mentor is wonderful. And it will shortcut that process. But you can learn about this stuff. And then you, you make yourself your own mentor in a way, you know, it's like you just kind of be like, Okay, I have the confidence now. And then you can go on. Allen: Yeah, I think it all comes down to confidence too. Because like, if I look at it, you know, we have several students that in any strategy that you pick one strategy, and then there's somebody there that's been like, Oh, hey, I did you know this much percent? And I'm like, wow, that's better than me. And there's another strategy. Oh, I did this much. And I'm like that better than me. And I know that, like, what everybody's doing better than me what's going on? You know, but I think that's part of it is the confidence. There's like, and this will tell you something about me, like, you know, I came up with the rules, right? So I came up with the test and testing it and failing, and I forgot what they call it. But it's like, you know, you, you try something and then you fail, and you try and you're failing, you chaired it. So in my mind, you know, all these rules are made by me. Right? So I was like, I don't know how much I can, you know, like, really? I'm gonna trust myself. I don't know. It's scary. But then somebody else comes and goes, Oh, Allen, you know, he's the man. He knows what he's doing. I'm just gonna go 100%. And they do. They do better than me. And I'm like, I don't get it. Matt: redo my rules. Allen: I just need to, I just, like, forget it. I just give you guys my money's like here. Matt: But I mean, in all seriousness, as well, I mean, people, they come in these programs, and everyone has so much to add. I mean, that's how you get better. I mean, there's people that are just like, oh, yeah, I did this way. And you're like, Oh, I didn't think about that. And it's like, if you're open to that, and you receive that, then it makes everything better for everybody. And I've seen that over and over again, where somebody will just say, Oh, I found this way to do this easier. It's like it's constant learning. All of us are constantly learning constantly getting better constantly trying to achieve and go go better. And that's a wonderful thing. Allen: Yep. Yeah, we had an hour. Just recently, we in our passive trading group, somebody had put like, Hey, I don't know how to do this. And I'm pretty sure it's in it's in the core somewhere. But then another student was like, oh, here, let me make you a video. And he just made a video. Yeah, this is how I did it. It's like, Oh, wow. And they asked another Oh, how about this, he made another video. It's just, you know, everybody's helping each other because we all have the same goal. And it's like, Let's just all work together. And, you know, we're all on the same path. Matt: Yeah, it's like, it's always true, you surround yourself with the right people, and good things will happen. I mean, it's just just got to be able to do that, Allen: you know, it's like, amazing, we had some really cool students, helpful, you know, just to go out of the way for each other. It's really, really nice. So then, okay, so my last question for you guys. And I don't know, maybe you guys like, maybe this is a problem that we've seen people have, but I don't know if you guys are gonna be able to answer it. But how can a trader have their spouse support them in their trading? So like, you know, if, you know, one of you is the trader, or you want to do something, how can you get your spouse to have that confidence in you? That you can do it? Does that make sense? Yeah. Because like, I know, with my wife, in the beginning, she didn't have any confidence. And then later on, you know, the numbers kind of spoke for themselves. But one of the things I did was when the back testing software came out that we that we use a lot, I showed it to her. And she was like, Oh, cool. I want to learn this, too. So we would sit there, and I gave her the rules. I think we were talking about credit spreads at the time. It's like, okay, so this is kind of how we find a trade. And I didn't have like, first set out rules yet. It was just, you know, ideas. I try, sometimes they do this way, that way. And so then I had her and I told her what it was. And we would look at a chart and be like, okay, hey, what do you what's the trade? And so she would pick her trade? And then, you know, we would we would go through it. And then I had already done it my way, you know, and it would always come out where she was actually more profitable than me. Same trade, same stock, same timeframe, if we had done it her way, we would have made more money. That's the thing about the confidence. He knows, like, when you see your wife who doesn't know anything, she just numbers, you know, she doesn't matter. It's like, I don't know, maybe I'm not cut out for this. But then, but then later on, there was a time where I got into like, a, like a rut, you know, so I wasn't I wasn't following the rules, the discipline became a problem. Because our trading doesn't take a lot of time. And so when you're just, you know, stuck, you don't have anything else to do, you kind of start over trading, and you're messing around with stuff. And so I had her, and she came, she's the one that came up with this. She's like, you know what, every single trade, you're going to write it down. And you're going to tell me, and I'm going to come upstairs at one o'clock every day, I'm going to ask you questions about every single trade, you know, and I forget exactly what they were. But it's in one of our products. It's like, you know, what's the goal? What's the plan? You're going to adjust it or you're going to get out when you're going to do it? Where's it now? And why haven't you done what you're supposed to do? You know, and so because of that, because I knew she was going to come? Right? I would have everything ready before she came in. So if I had to get out of a trade because it was down or I needed to do an adjustment, it will already be done by the time she got in. And so that degree of holding me accountable. It really I mean the results just went skyrocketing higher. That's really smart. So that was.. Margaret: something that you said yesterday on our call on our oil call really has stuck with me about every day that you wake up you have a decision to stay in that trade or get out so that's the day that you're making a decision. And it's not Yeah, so that it just hit me this morning because we had the the market was down a little bit this morning. And we talked about it like what what are we going to do so I like that idea of having an accountable Matt: Well, it's important because you're you yourself are going to be emotionally different each day for whatever reason, just as you as an individual that but now you have your wife or someone who was account recording accountable is going to come in and keep you straight. I think what every what everybody needs Allen: Yep. Either either spouse or buddy or accountability partner or something like that, that you can trade with. Trading buddy, I like that. Cool. Okay. Is there anything else that you guys wanted to share with our audience? Margaret: Hmm, you can do it. You can absolutely do it. I think if I could have told myself which I had zero knowledge background in how what what was a brokerage? Let's just start with the simple step. I did not even know the difference between brokerages I did not understand what a brokerage account was. So if I could Tell Margaret, even just five years ago, what I will be doing today, I would not have believed it. And that once you start looking at your money, you know, everybody always says nobody cares about your money more than you do. I think our age group needs this knowledge. Because with the advent of you having to figure out your own retirement and not having pensions, it is extremely important for us to know that and we didn't have any knowledge that is out there. You know, we didn't we weren't 20 and Tiktok. And Instagram rails were out there where you could learn some of this stuff. You know, we're where we're younger people already know so much more than I knew when I'm in my 20s. I think there's a group of us that needs the hope that comes from knowing that you can manage your own money, and you can make money and you can help your retirement, it doesn't matter if you're in your 40s. Matt: No matter really what age you are, I mean, my mother's 80, right. And if she was, you know, I used to stay at Costco all the time. And I said this many times where they're, they're older people that give out samples or they're in the job. And there, you can see that they're in pain. They're standing all day long, and they're like 70, and 80 years old. And if they just knew if they knew how to do a simple strategy, or trade or just learn it, in which they totally can, yeah, or be shown that and, you know, they can believe in it, that would change their life. And they change their comfort, not later on and be right now. Yeah. Which is so powerful. So it's really it goes to, that's what I love about trading, it can help all age groups. Yeah. Right. And you're right. No one cares about your money more than you do. And I look at like, life's risky. Everything's at risk. So you owe it to yourself. You think trading is risky. Give it a shot. Everything's risky. Yeah. Right. So you got to overcome your fears. See how things work? Believe in yourself. And just go for it. Yeah, because we're only on here one turn, you know, Margaret: Why not? Give it a shot? Allen: Well said Well said, you guys, I really thank you for this. This has been a pleasure. And I really appreciate your time and spending some time and sharing intimate details about your lives and your relationship with us. It's it's been a blessing. Thank you so much. Margaret: Thank you for asking us. Yeah.

Let's talk about rest. R e s t. We're always going, going, going! Doesn't the world to you seem like everything is speeding up faster and faster, and that time is going by incredibly fast, like a rollercoaster fast?Today's episode is on the value of rest and all the different types of rest we need to look at.There are 7 different ways of rest that our bodies need. And when we rest, we are better friends. We have a free gift for you. Go to https://www.ourfriendlyworldpodcast.com/ and pick up a free copy of Fawn's “Ikigai of Friendship” companion book And to gift us, tell others about our podcast and leave a kind review. Seven Ways of Rest - TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Fawn: Woo wee guys, how are you? Hello. Welcome back. [00:00:06] Matt: I feel like, uh, deer Cotton headlights. I don't know what you wanna talk about. . [00:00:11] Fawn: I wanna talk about rest. R e s t. We're always going, going, going, doesn't the world to you seem like everything is speeding up faster and faster, and that time is going by. incredibly fast, like a rollercoaster, fast. [00:00:32] Matt: There's a dichotomy for me because if I'm doing a lot of stuff, my individual days go by really fast. But then when I look back what I did a week ago, it seems like a long time ago, it's like a Twilight Zone. So it's a weird thing. [00:00:49] Matt: So yes, it has sped up and yet has slowed down at the same time. [00:00:54] Fawn: I feel like most of us are really working. What's the term? Is it a car term? Working on all cylinders? Is that the term? [00:01:05] Matt: Firing on all cylinders. [00:01:06] Fawn: Firing on all cylinders, constantly nonstop. [00:01:12] Matt: Yes. [00:01:14]

This is our very first episode in a public place with in-person live conversations at the local coffee shop!!!!!!!!!!!! Wanting to lead by example, Fawn and Matt share their meet-cute moment on their friendships with Marianne, Danielle, and Hillary. This conversation is all about how to notice the magic, being brave enough to see people, say "Hello" and go further by sparking conversation, creating friendship, and continuing friendship when you come to points of disagreement, learning from those disagreements, and developing the art of a strong friendship. Fawn, Matt, Marianne, Danielle, and Hillary share how they all met and prove how the world is a small town and you are surrounded by friendship. To reach out to us, please go to: https://www.ourfriendlyworldpodcast.com/ TRANSCRIPT: The Earth Is A Small Town [00:00:00] Fawn: The earth is a small town and everybody's your friend. And I dare say, even now with everything that's going around in the world, Uhhuh what's, what's going on in the world. It is still as true as ever that the earth is a small town. And everybody's your friend. Seriously. [00:00:20] Matt: Yeah, but what's this racket and I keep hearing around us. [00:00:23] Fawn: Okay. Hi everybody. We are back. This is our first time out in the wild unmasked, even and we are out, we are at a coffee shop in the most, one of the most beautiful places on the planet. We moved Matt and I moved here we are. And this is what happens. The show is more about the art of the start and throughout the last two and a half years, talking to you all, I kind of deep down felt like a hypocrite, talking about friendship and going out there and creating bonds and meeting friends and developing and nurturing friendships when we were sitting all by our lone sums in our kitchen, talking about it. Hey, so here we are. And we're gonna tell you how we did. So here's what happened. It was the power of a coupon. Matt had a coupon for a coffee shop. I had [00:01:21] Matt: a, how many years I had a gift card, two [00:01:23] Fawn: years, two years. You had a coupon for coffee two years. It was in his wallet. [00:01:30] Matt: So just as the pandemic broke, and one of the things that convinced us that this pandemic might not be a joke was I was gonna go meet with Amazon in Colorado. And I was gonna go to their offices and they were gonna do their spiel and giv

This is the last crossover episode between OMG and Sound-Up Governance, a new podcast on the Ground-Up Governance platform (www.groundupgovernance.com). In this one, Matt Fullbrook speaks with Lisa Oldridge, a Performance Strategist in Calgary with expertise in governance, ESG, and investment in startups. Lisa helps us to explore the differences between what makes a good company good and what makes a good business good, and shows us that the people are what matter most.   Matt Welcome back to Sound-Up Governance. Today's episode is the companion to the third edition of the Ground-Up Governance newsletter, which provides definitions for business, company and customer. I know I frequently use the words business and company as if they're interchangeable, even though they're often pretty different. That's fine. Of course, if I say business when I mean company, it doesn't hurt anybody or even confuse anyone too much. But still, I thought it'd be fun to talk to someone who could really help me to understand what makes a good business good, and how that's different from what makes a good company good. And of course, all of this is tied up with the needs, wants, hopes and fears of the customer. So I called my friend Lisa Oldridge, who describes herself as a performance strategist. She works with companies and boards of directors on governance, strategy, ESG performance, and more. Oh, and ESG stands for environmental, social, and governance and refers in general to stuff that's not directly related to money. Not only that, but she's the investment director at The 51 Ventures, which invests money in disruptive female-founded enterprises. Plus, in addition to being a corporate director, and a bonafide a governance nerd, she has also spent a big chunk of her life in institutional equity sales, portfolio management and research. So in other words, Lisa's spent a lot of time and energy being curious about what a good company or a good business looks like, and whether those companies or businesses are worth putting money into. And that's exactly where we'll start. When Lisa is on the outside, looking in, what gets her excited about a business, or maybe a small company that only sells a single product or service. Lisa  So there's tons of problems out there. Whether or not it needs to be solved is another question. And often you see with founders, if you're talking about really teeny companies, you know, you've seen the typical entrepreneur, they're like, "Oh, my God, we got to solve this problem!" But it's really actually not a problem for that for many people, you want to see that there's a problem that exists, and they've come up with something that will solve this problem. It doesn't have to be like the optimized version of it. You've probably also heard about MVP, Matt  MVP, or minimum viable product, or, as Lisa puts it, Lisa  We also call it the shitty first draft of whatever it is, but you probably have a bit of traction there. IP is a big one IP or thought capital or moat Matt  “Moat",” you know, just like a moat around the castle. It's something special about a business that makes it tricky for someone else to intrude on your territory by making it expensive or difficult to copy your technology, for example. Lisa  And then competition, and actually it's a bad sign when you see that there's no competition, because it's usually especially if you come in and you see a founder or group that are pitching and they're like, "oh, yeah, no, we kind of, we've come up with the thing, but nobody else has!" A, it's probably not true. And B it just gives you a sense of their capacity for understanding future pivots and the market etc. Anyway, so that's more maybe a commentary on their character or their abilities or behaviors. Matt  There's so much interesting stuff in what Lisa just said that it might be worth rewinding, 10 or 15 seconds just to hear it again. It made a huge lightbulb go off for me. To Lisa, an entrepreneur's understanding of their business can provide an important glimpse inside their character. We'll get back to that in a sec. I wanted a better understanding about this idea that creating something new with no competition might not be all it's cracked up to be. I mean, we've all heard the term first mover's advantage. Isn't that a thing? Shouldn't it be a good thing to be the first one to come up with an idea? I even said to her, "Lisa, I'm trying to do something new and fresh in governance. Am I messing up somehow?" Lisa  Let me ask you this. Why is first mover advantage? The answer to everything? It's not! I think there's a presumption sometimes "Oh, I've seen somebody else with that. Therefore, it's not going to work. Right?" I think value proposition is the thing that you're selling or bending or creating or innovating on, it's as much where and how it lands as what it is. I had a mentor that that told me, a guy that I worked with, he was awesome. He was like, "Oldridge, the difference between being early and wrong is nothing!" Right? Even ideas that are completely original, still do have competition. And so I guess it's not a red flag to me if someone hasn't figured out who the person who's also doing... I don't know. lavender striped pogo sticks, but who's doing pogo sticks and who's painting toys, lavender. And so what does that look like? Because it also tells you about the customer! One thing that we one thing that I do see is novelty, almost taking precedence over will this actually be used by more than a few people, right? I would rather see a concept or like somebody innovating on a proven thing or direction or widget, but doing it in such a way that's original in the sense that it's adding more value to the end customer. Matt  So even for someone like Lisa, who studies companies at their earliest stages, looking for the coolest new ideas, the biggest opportunities for innovation and investment, there might not be a difference between being first and being wrong? It made me think of the songs or books or art that I love the most. Sure, there's something fresh and original about them, but they also, you know, give a sense of familiarity. Building on what came before them. Sorry, I'm getting a bit abstract here. But the insight for new businesses is pretty profound. Before we go too much further, Lisa use the term "value proposition." It's one of those terms most of us have heard before, but what does it mean exactly? Lisa  And value proposition it's business canvas, it's like the middle of it, like the jelly in the donut! It's what your product or service or widget or thing does for your customers to make things better, or to make them feel like things are better. Matt  And this is how the customer ties into all this. A good business doesn't have to be completely new, it just needs to make the customer feel like things are better than they were without whatever product or service the business offers them. But let's get back to what Lisa said earlier about the character of the leaders involved. We know she looks at the competitive landscape, the value proposition and so on. But what else is she looking for Lisa  The leadership and the team attributes. You know, are they dedicated? Do they have the horsepower and the grit and all that good stuff? And then I would probably single out the CEO or the founder, like the person who's in charge, as almost like a separate thing, because the earlier the stage of the company, the less actual crunchy information you have. And you're looking for leadership attributes, but then also just you know, the whole humility and brains. Matt  All of this started to make so much sense. Sometimes from the outside, we can't really see the nuts and bolts that show us the potential of the business itself. So we need to rely on what we really can judge: character, humility, brains. So I wondered if the potential of a person matters so much, could a great leader maybe offset concerns about a bad business or a bad company? In other words, to someone like Lisa, what matters more the person or the business? Lisa  Could you have, you know, like a superstar person with a not so great company? And what's better that or the inverse? And definitely the former. And that works all the way up with a you know, with with large organizations, I think probably even moreso. A great business with someone at the helm, that's not great, will eventually run out of momentum. You could still make money. In the meantime, though. Matt  Whoa! We'll take on A founder with a B business over the inverse. In fact, a great business with bad leadership is at best a way for an investor to make a quick buck before the business dies. And you know, what's extra cool? In some cases, emphasizing the people side can create special superpowers for the company and the business. Lisa  If you're talking about a business inside that company, or a vertical inside a company, or product line, or some kind of an offering. More often than not these days, you're talking about a bunch of people in a company that do a thing. And it's maybe different to the rest of the things that the company does, right? One of the organizations that I sit on the board of has had the situation where, you know, they did a raise, and then they acquired this business unit. And it's really cool hearing about the first couple of days about where it was like, "Okay, you're here because we want you not the thing, but we want YOU!" And over and above that being a good acquisition on paper, can you imagine what that did to the sense of, you know, engagement, and therefore performance, of the company, etc, etc. So it's like, and it doesn't require a lot of investment. It's not like somebody had to write a big check after the fact sort of have these people come on and be super excited about coming into work the next day. Matt  And there you have it, right from someone who's in the middle of it, studying, assessing, developing and buying businesses and companies and thinking about customers and value proposition, competition and all the other things that can influence whether an idea will succeed or fail. What excites Lisa the most? Character, humility, brains, the people who run these businesses and companies. And emphasizing the importance of those people can further supercharge the organization's performance. In the next episode of Sound-Up Governance, I'll speak with Nick Chambers about communities and stakeholders. He's an executive search professional and governance expert who specializes in purpose-driven organizations. Thanks for listening.

Today's episode is the second of three crossover episodes with Sound-Up Governance, a new podcast that's part of the Ground-Up Governance platform (www.groundupgovernance.com). In this one, Matt Fullbrook speaks with Lieutenant Colonel Jamahl Evans of the United States Marine Corps about what duty and accountability mean in his world.    TRANSCRIPT: Matt  Welcome back to Sound-Up Governance. One of the most common conversations I have with boards of directors and senior executives is about to whom they owe a duty. On the surface, it seems like a simple question, but most of the time, everyone in the room has a different idea of what "duty" even means. So the question of where your duty lies takes a lot more work to explore than most people expect. And when you add in the difference between duty and accountability, plus when and to whom you can delegate duties and accountability. Let's just say it gets tricky, fast. This week's guest is Lieutenant Colonel Jamahl Evans of the United States Marine Corps. In addition to his extraordinary military career, Jamahl is also a corporate governance enthusiast. As you might imagine, duty and accountability are baked pretty deep into everything that goes on in the Marines. But before we dive into that, I'll let Jamahl explain exactly what his job is because it's pretty neat. Jamahl  I am currently a Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Marine Corps. And what I do in the Marine Corps is financial management. I'm a financial management officer. That's what we call a Military Occupational Specialty, or MOS for short. In that capacity, I'm responsible for the planning and execution and oversight of my command's budget. Now, that's just the MOS piece. As I like to tell my Marines, your MOS is your job. Marine is your profession. So for me, my profession, and my first duty is being a Marine. And that means ensuring that my Marines and I are deployment ready and combat capable at all times. The section that I manage - my full title would be Assistant Chief of Staff, G-8 Comptroller - so that's a section and we've got about 14 Marines in there. So those are the Marines who are directly responsible and accountable to me to make sure that we're doing our financial management functions properly. Outside of that, external to us, are adjacent staff sections, and subordinate commands within the organization with whom we have to work to manage resources: make sure that we're that we've got enough resources and that we're using the resources we have properly. Matt  Now, I'm going to assume that many of you listening are as ignorant about the hierarchy of the Marines as I am, where exactly does the rank of Lieutenant Colonel fit in the organizational chart? Jamahl  So as a Lieutenant Colonel, I'm what's called a field grade officer, and there are three levels to that. So it's Major, which is what I was before, Lieutenant Colonel, what I am now, and Colonel, what I aspire to be promoted to in future. Beyond the field grade ranks, are the General or the flag officer ranks, so Brigadier General, Major General, Lieutenant General and Four Star General. So right now I am, what you would consider - although I'm senior to several other ranks - I'm still right smack in the middle of the of the officer and organizational hierarchy. So every promotion, you're getting greater responsibility. And they are also greater opportunities to which you can be assigned. So as what's called a company grade officer - those are junior officers: lieutenants, and captains - you're going to have significant responsibility already. When you become a field grade officer. What's interesting is, now you are a little further away from the junior Marines, and a little more responsible for organizational management. Beyond just making sure your Marines are trained, making sure they're taken care of making sure they're showing up on time and doing their job, now you are responsible for really understanding organizational policies, regulations, understanding what the what the mission of the organization is, and how your unit relates to that and ensuring that happens in the best way. Matt  Before our interview, Jamahl already knew that we were going to talk about duty and accountability. You'll notice that so far, he's being pretty careful not to use those words, instead referring to "responsibility." I nudged him a bit on that and asked him to tell me to whom he's accountable in his job and whether that's different from his duty. This is where things start getting really interesting. Jamahl  So to whom I am accountable in the immediate, that would be my commanding general. That is the senior officer who runs the organization. It's a Major General who runs Second Marine Division. So that is the first officer to whom I immediately accountable because it really is his budget that I'm managing. It's not me making solo decisions. It's not Lieutenant Colonel Evans going "I feel like buying this!" No, it is based on the mission of the organization and the intent of my senior leader, which would be my commanding General. So that's the immediate accountability portion of it. Broader, or writ large, when I think about to whom I'm accountable, personally, there is, first of all, the Constitution of the United States. We actually take an oath as officers, and our enlisted Marines take an oath as well. But we take an oath and in our oath is the Constitution of the United States. To support and defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic. So that wraps up the nation, and accountability towards the nation. My authority and my mission come directly from the President of the United States, so I'm accountable to the President of the United States, as well. Then you have United States citizens: the American people are truly the shareholders because it's their tax dollars I'm managing. It's their tax dollars, for whom my senior officers, President, Congress, we're responsible for that. So we do have to take into account and I've done it on several occasions where there were decisions that I had to make when working with partner nations. And I had to make tough determinations because I am managing taxpayer dollars. Matt  Okay, whoa. We're still only talking about accountability here and already for what's essentially a middle manager in a huge organization, Jamahl is accountable to his boss, and the President of the United States, and every taxpayer? Seriously? And if you thought the complexity would stop there, you were wrong. Let's add duty into the mix. Jamahl  You would think 20 years in the Marine Corps, I've got a good solid understanding of duty. And I did I had a good personal understanding. Then I got curious about well, what is the actual definition of duty? And the definition I came across was "a legal or a moral obligation." And I didn't, while that's true, I didn't feel that was the full story. And think when when it comes to duty, there is an intangible step of building a sense of duty. We can understand what duty is, but there is a step of building that within an individual. Some individuals just come to the organization with it. Some individuals don't. And I would say that the short answer to your question: Duty is having the knowledge, feeling, belief that you should do what you're supposed to do to the best of your ability, because that's the requirement. Accountability is a bit more on the reactive side. It's how do you explain what you've done? How do you take responsibility for what you've done? Who else shares in that responsibility? So that's where I would see the difference. I would see duty as being a bit more on the front end of actions and accountability on the back end. Matt  Okay, wait, pause. This is amazing stuff. If you're anything like me, you think of the Marines as being the definition of tangible structure, discipline, order. I mean, if you ask me for the first word that comes to my mind, when you say the word "Marines," it would probably be "duty." But now I'm hearing that duty is something almost soft and squishy, something that comes from the inside, rather than being imposed on you from the outside. Am I hearing that right? Jamahl  And that was the second thought that I had, after I considered how I would define duty. The second thought being, well, how do you instill it? How do you ensure it? How do you develop it? How does it come about? Like you said, there's some external factor that plays upon you to help build a sense of duty. And the thing I thought about was, okay, well, if I were in an organization, what would help drive my own sense of duty? Because I came to the Marine Corps with a sense of duty. And I thought of one thing or a multitude of things, but I keyed in on one thing that I think helps build that. I think the principles of an organization can drive a sense of duty, and that's your external thing that comes into play. And how it works is when when people see your principles, and I don't care if it's in a slogan or motto anything, there's got to be a connection. And the connection that has to be established is: I either possess the characteristics of those principles already, or those are principles that I want to possess, I want to display those. Matt  So cool! It's like duty, this thing that the dictionary defines as a legal or moral obligation, might actually be more of a special sauce, where the ingredients are a person's internal drive character and beliefs, plus the purpose and values of their organization. So I wondered: if accountability is basically a set of responsibilities imposed on a person by an external or organizational structure. And duty is something that comes more from inside you, there must be lots of ways that duty and accountability could come into conflict. Like if your moral duty and beliefs make it hard to carry out an order from your boss, for example. In a case like that, what is Jamahl hope his Marines will do to address the conflict? Jamahl  In my office, I have established with my Marines, we do not use the word "hope". And they find it interesting they find it, you know, they find it funny. But we all know that it's a common theme in the Marine Corps, that hope is not a course of action. So when you talk about anybody who's having kind of a dilemma, or a conundrum, I don't have a hope for them. What I do is engage to see what kind of actions we can take to improve the situation. So to answer your direct question, the first thing is, there historically can be dilemmas between what the organization needs to do and how they need to do it, and what the individual thinks about it. So the first thing, which is one of the foundations, is that a Marine does not have to follow an unlawful order. So if you, as a Marine or as any service person, believe that an order you've received is unlawful or illegal, you do not have to do it. However, if an order is lawful, you might not agree with it, you might have a personal feeling, but you're still going to do it, you have a job to do. And if you've been given given a lawful order, then you execute! Now here's where the development comes into play, to minimize the dilemma that you hypothesized. As we grow within our organizations, it's on the mid-level and senior leaders to ensure that there's quality understanding, quality training, quality conversation, quality voice, making that time for your junior personnel to ask you those tough questions. And I tried to get my Marines to ask tough questions early on. That way they can experience and understand a glimpse that what your perspective is, at your level doesn't encompass the entire picture. And you have to understand that there are threads between what you functionally do and what we organizationally decide. Matt  Like most important things in life, this is a complex problem. When duty and accountability collide, or when your personal beliefs are in conflict with what your organization asks of you, sometimes you have to, you know, just trust your boss and do the work. But Jamahl is also telling us that it's important for organizational leaders to give their team a voice, a platform, and an opportunity to better understand how they fit into the bigger picture. But again, we're hearing something that kind of doesn't match my own perception of a military organization where everything is super structured, and everyone has to do the same things at the same time. You know, predictable and repeatable. How can you have both that and an environment where everyone has a voice and some influence and problem solving? Jamahl  Senior leaders have to create space for that to happen. If you're running a completely robotic organization where people just do a thing, and there's no room to either question, consult, understand, develop, grow, then you're going to have people doing robotic things. No military can be at its best when it's just "do the exact thing that I tell you and that's it," because you will have a group of people who will do one thing and will stop. So just like any other organization, we do need to increase the bandwidth for creative thinking, innovative thinking, especially when it comes to problem solving. So those types of behaviors that we want everybody doing the same way in the Marine Corps, we want everyone to be in shape. We don't even want it, we need it. That's a requirement. You're required to be in shape. Two months ago, I ran three miles. I don't like distance running, though I do it as well as I can...I do pretty good. But we want our Marines staying in shape. We want our people healthy, and not just physically healthy, mentally, and emotionally healthy. So it's on again, senior leadership to engage and be aware that that's happening. Shifting over to the behaviors where we want to expand and have that bandwidth to learn and to grow. That's where your innovation piece comes in. Where we want Marines thinking about developed solutions to problems, branch scenarios. "What would you do?" is a great question. "What would you do?" It's a very easy thing to sit down with your personnel and go over a scenario, something that happened in your career, "Hey, this, this happened. What do you think you would do in this situation?" You have that conversation. The next step, in that is the daily activities, daily tasks, daily operations, giving your people that space to make decisions at their level. Matt  It surprised me a bit to hear Jamahl talk about the importance of not just physical health, but also mental well-being in the Marines. But now that I think about it, it really shouldn't have surprised me at all. It can be an extraordinary, stressful and dangerous job. And it made an impact on me to hear him talk about it as part of the duty of being a Marine. The duty to care for your own physical and mental well being, but also that of the people around you. How does that actually play out in the real world of the Marine Corps? Jamahl  When you place a focus on engagement, treatment, development, recovery, and then success, you establish a continuum that's understandable by your junior leaders. One of the things I think the Department of Defense is great at is messaging the need to be aware. Messaging the need to be aware and see signs. And we've had a lot of messaging over the years. But it's something that is important, because we're talking about the health of the organization. So what gets a message down to mid-level and junior leaders is "here are different signs, things that you should be looking for. If you've never had to deal with this before. Here's something that could trigger in your mind a something might be wrong." I have had the experience of walking past a Marine and getting a greeting, they say "Good morning, sir." I'll say "Good morning." And sometimes I'll say "how are you?" A lot of people don't like that greeting because you really just say it and you pass the person and you go. But about three times in my career I've said good morning to a Marine and I've looked and I said "how are you?" And they will respond with "fine" or "okay". And it's just something in the eyes. And three times I've had to pull the Marine aside and say, "seriously, I know I'm not your commanding officer, you don't even know me. But are you good?"And then those three instances I've hadn't read, say "no." So then I would stop what I was doing, call whomever I was going to meet whatever meeting I was going to say, "Look, I can't make it, I have a situation." And I'll take that Marine into the office. Now sometimes that results in one hour, two hour conversations. But so long as that Marine leaves with something functional to get them to the next step. I'm not going to cure everything. I'm not trained to cure everything. And I don't have the time to cure everything. But what I can do is show you where the door is, and open it and say, "Look, you can step through that door. If you can do nothing else, you can step through that door, because we may be side by side, fighting against an enemy. And I gotta know that you're good." And it's not just for junior members either. It goes for our senior members, and I'll share one more story when I've worked... I was a Major and I worked with a Lieutenant Colonel. He was he was my Commanding Officer and I was his Executive Officer. And I noticed the level of stress that he was fighting. He wasn't losing it or anything like that - he was completely capable. But you can see fatigue in people. One day I heard him come on deck. And he was walking his office was after my office. That way I catch all the people that want to try to go and see him. So I hear him walk into his office, and about three or four different Marines approached him with a with an issue, something they had, "Sir, this or that." So they walked by my office. I said, "Sir, do you have a moment?" And the way he normally did it he would just say "yes." But you could see the fatigue in his eyes. So he came in, I said "Sir, do you mind if I close the hatch?" And he said, "not at all". So you close the hatch - for your listeners a hatch is a door. Naval terminology -  and he sat down on the couch in my office, and he said, "What do you have?" And I said "nothing, sir, you just looked like you needed to have a time when nobody's asking you to do something." And he smiled and looked at me, he goes, "You up for tacos?" I said, "Yes, sir." So we went and had lunch. So sometimes we have to look out for senior leaders in the same way to look out for junior people. So it just, it just takes compassion, awareness and engagement. Matt  There it is! Even in an organization as structured, complex and disciplined as the United States Marine Corps., Sometimes it's important to just go and have tacos with your boss. I learned so much from my conversation with Lieutenant Colonel Jamahl Evans and we covered a lot more ground than what you heard in this episode, so you'll hear more from him in the future. If you have a question, story, or insight you'd like to share, please send a note or a voice memo to soundup@groundupgovernance.com, and we may feature you in a future episode. On the next episode of Sound-Up Governance. I talk with performance strategist, investment guru and corporate governance enthusiast Lisa Oldridge about businesses, companies, customers, and how they all fit together. Until next time.

Today's episode of OMG is actually a crossover with a new podcast, Sound-Up Governance, which is part of the new Ground-Up Governance platform. Episode 1 features an interview with Tiziana Casciaro, author of Power, for All: How it Really Works, and Why it's Everyone's Business. If you like what you hear, please consider heading over to groundupgovernance.com and subscribing.   SCRIPT The next three episodes of OMG are gonna be REALLY different. Well, actually, they're not episodes of OMG at all, but episodes of a brand new podcast called Sound-Up Governance, which is part of my new Ground-Up Governance platform. Sound-Up Governance features interviews with experts who don't necessarily come from the regular pool of corporate governance “gurus” so to speak. Instead, they are experts in stuff that's really important to doing corporate governance well, and can help us to understand what's really going on in our organizations. First up is Professor Tiziana Casciaro, who literally wrote the book on power and authority. If you like what you hear, head over to groundupgovernance.com to learn more and consider subscribing.   Matt  Welcome to Sound-Up Governance, part of the ground up governance network. My name is Matt Fullbrook. And in today's episode I speak with my friend Tiziana Casciaro, Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto. We launched the Ground-Up Governance newsletter this week with the most fundamental concepts in corporate governance: authority and power. I mean, what could be more essential to corporate governance then trying to understand who's allowed to do what and what it takes for one person to influence another person? Luckily for us, Professor Casciaro, recently co authored a book with Harvard's Julie Battilana called Power for All: How it Really Works, and Why it's Everyone's Business. And just so I don't mess anything up, why don't we let her tell us a bit more?   Tiziana  It's a book intended for all in this world, not only in Canada, not only the US, but really, truly everywhere, who have contended with power, have struggled with it been frustrated by it, while understanding that it's important for them to have it, and know how to use it. And we have tried to give tools and understandings that allow people to grow in their influence, but also learn how to deploy it for good.   Matt  It never much occurred to me to think very hard about what power really is, or how, if at all, it's different from authority, or why, for example, people in really visible or influential positions sometimes fail to make a difference, am I missing somethingZ   Tiziana  Power is often very much confused with authority, or or I should say, authority is often confused with power. They are different, however. Authority is the formal right to issue orders and directives and make decisions. And it comes from the position you occupy in a formal structure. So your role puts you in a place where you get to make certain decisions. Power is different, however. Power is the ability to influence the behavior of other people. And you can influence them sometimes through your formal authority. If I have the right to decide whether you're going to be promoted or not, that gives me power over you. It's not just authority, but it's actual power. Why? Because you want something from me: a promotion. I have control over your access to this thing you want because I have the right to decide whether you will be promoted or not. And therefore I exercise influence over you. That's what power is made of. It's made of controlling your access to something you desire.  But you see, already in the definition of power, that I may control, access to something you want without having formal authority.   Matt   So can a person create power? Does that even make sense?   Tiziana  Absolutely makes sense. A person can increase their power, if they understand this simple principle of where power comes from. If I know that power comes from controlling access to resources you want, all I need to accrue more power is understand what is it that you want. And that's where people become very confused between the notion of formal authority and the power broadly conceived, formal authority has to do with something very specific. I have certain decision rights in a certain context over certain things. But that covers only a small part of what you might want, you might not just want a promotion, you might want for instance, to be managed by somebody who understands you, that understands your gifts, your talents, your complexity as a human being, values it and makes you feel good by giving you a platform where you can be your best self every day at work. Those are much more psychological resources, that are not written down in any formal organizational structure. They are much more subtle, and yet they are extremely important to people, they drive who they want to associate themselves with, whether they I want to be led by you or not, whether I will trust the decision you make. And even if you make a decision through your formal authority, and the decision comes at me, your actual underlying power - so,  your ability to influence my behavior - will come down to how willing am I to execute on that decision?   Matt   Okay, now we're really getting somewhere. No wonder some people have authority, but still can't get anyone to do anything. Power isn't only about controlling access to tangible resources, in some cases is way more important to just make someone feel good, feel valued and motivated. Since Ground-Up Governance is ultimately about corporations, how does all this apply in a typical corporate structure with a board, a CEO...in other words, a model that's got a well defined, built in leadership hierarchy. Once again, here's Professor Tiziana Casciaro.   Tiziana   The problem of the hierarchical structure you're describing is that it tends to concentrate power in the hands of very few people. And what we know from research in all kinds of disciplines is that power concentration tends to be bad in the long run, not only for the majority of people who don't have power, and therefore are just on the receiving end of the decisions of the few. But it can also be detrimental to the few in power, to the extent that having that much control can lead them to abuse their power. They lose sight of their unilateral capacity to shape the life of others and the other people who are receiving these decisions. Sometimes they become resentful of this asymmetry. And for good reason, if they're not unreasonable in becoming resentful. And when you have resentful people that you're leading, it's not good. Because they might push back, they do push back, the moment they have a little bit of room to show you that you're abusing your power. And I don't like it.   Matt  Uh oh So, concentrating power at the top of an organization sounds risky. What about a board of directors? How do power and authority work there?   Tiziana  So, you are a director on a board. And and because of that role, you will have certain rights to issue directives for the company and its leadership, and jointly with the other board members, you can come up with certain decisions that then presumably get implemented. So imagine one of these board members that in addition to the formal authority that accrues to them, by virtue of occupying that position on the board, they have something else going on for them. Maybe they have extra good connections to a stakeholder that the management of the company cares about, or that the board cares about. And they have to go through me to get to those guys in that stakeholder groups. In that case, I will end up having more influence over the decisions of the board and the behavior of the executives that leave the company, because I've got something that they want. And I control it in the sense that there aren't many alternative ways for them to get to those stakeholders, they kind of have to go through me.   Matt   It almost seems like part of the problem is the way that boards are structured, I asked Professor Casciaro if we should be trying to build boards so that every director somehow has an equal amount of power. I mean, maybe that would be the ideal condition for making good decisions and balancing everyone's interests.   Tiziana  The reality is that resources are unequally distributed across each and every one of us. And it's unavoidable that you will not have the quality you're describing on the board. But what you can do is to create decision making processes that make it harder for people to go off and establish relationships of influence that are disconnected from the goal that the board is presumably pursuing. So you can have decision making structures where it's one board member, one vote, that you have a way to express your preferences that does not allow easily for you to be swayed by others, which could protect you from their influence when it stems from things that have nothing to do with a decision at hand.   Matt  All right, so maybe it isn't possible to distribute power equally, but we can just use processes that balance things out a little. That's what we should be working on right?    Tiziana   But then you lose something when you do that. When you create a structure in which the decision is made almost independently by each board member, what you lose is the learning and the ability to engage with ideas other than your own that can actually and actually do oftentimes improve decision making. I can come in with my own independent judgment, which is all fine and dandy because it becomes not subject to your undue influence as my fellow board member. But I don't get to hear your argument, I don't get to really make my own decision better, because I don't get your input. So that's what what you're the tension, you're juggling here, you're navigating this pull toward independence, but also want to secure the beauty of multiple minds, struggling with a complex decision, where each and every one of us individually, cannot really understand every component.   Matt   We've learned how authority and power are different, and that people can in fact, take steps to generate power. We've all heard about the potential corrupting effects of power socially - morally, even - can we take steps to, you know, use our power for good?   Tiziana Ultimately, you're going to have to contend with what you have done with your life. What have you impacted? What are you leaving behind? And this is a level of insight into yourself that sometimes escapes us when we are in the middle of the action. We are the CEO of a company, complex stuff coming at us from every which way, and we kind of forget that actually, we want to accomplish something here. In addition to being rich and famous. We want to accomplish something other than that. So it's very important for people to understand that there are many goals you can accomplish. And power is essential to accomplishing all of them. You cannot get anything done without power. It's a form of energy in many ways that allows you to change the world around you, and move it in a direction you think is worthwhile. So you have to empower, for lack of a better word, people to acquire the power they need to pursue those objectives. And sometimes the people that have formal authority are not the right people. They're not pursuing the right objectives anymore. Maybe they started out with dreams and ambitions that were perfectly good and constructive, but along the way they lost sight of them. So the book tries to give everybody an opportunity to understand how power works so that they can acquire it, and then set up their power - and this is something that boards actually are very important contributors to - set up their power so that they don't get lost along the way. Because power does go to our head. It does. It does contaminate our purpose. It does distract us from our limitations and our need for other people to help us along the way. It makes us hubristic, it makes us self focused. So you need to not only give people tools to acquire power, but also give them tools to keep it in check.   Matt   Thank you for listening to episode number one of Sound-Up Governance. The fact that you're listening means you're a Ground-Up Governance subscriber. So thank you sincerely for your support and engagement. Next week, I'll speak with Lieutenant Colonel Jamahl Evans, Sr. of the US Marines as we work through our next batch of words: accountability, delegate and duty. If you want to reach out with a question or insight or an interesting story, send an email or voice memo to soundup@groundupgovernance.com. And we may feature you in a future episode. Thank you for tuning in. See you next week.

About MattMatt is a Sr. Architect in Belfast, an AWS DevTools Hero, Serverless Architect, Author and conference speaker. He is focused on creating the right environment for empowered teams to rapidly deliver business value in a well-architected, sustainable and serverless-first way.You can usually find him sharing reusable, well architected, serverless patterns over at cdkpatterns.com or behind the scenes bringing CDK Day to life.Links Referenced: Previous guest appearance: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/podcast/screaming-in-the-cloud/slinging-cdk-knowledge-with-matt-coulter/ The CDK Book: https://thecdkbook.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/NIDeveloper TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. One of the best parts about, well I guess being me, is that I can hold opinions that are… well, I'm going to be polite and call them incendiary, and that's great because I usually like to back them in data. But what happens when things change? What happens when I learn new things?Well, do I hold on to that original opinion with two hands at a death grip or do I admit that I was wrong in my initial opinion about something? Let's find out. My guest today returns from earlier this year. Matt Coulter is a senior architect since he has been promoted at Liberty Mutual. Welcome back, and thanks for joining me.Matt: Yeah, thanks for inviting me back, especially to talk about this topic.Corey: Well, we spoke about it a fair bit at the beginning of the year. And if you're listening to this, and you haven't heard that show, it's not that necessary to go into; mostly it was me spouting uninformed opinions about the CDK—the Cloud Development Kit, for those who are unfamiliar—I think of it more or less as what if you could just structure your cloud resources using a programming language you claim to already know, but in practice, copy and paste from Stack Overflow like the rest of us? Matt, you probably have a better description of what the CDK is in practice.Matt: Yeah, so we like to say it's imperative code written in a declarative way, or declarative code written in an imperative way. Either way, it lets you write code that produces CloudFormation. So, it doesn't really matter what you write in your script; the point is, at the end of the day, you still have the CloudFormation template that comes out of it. So, the whole piece of it is that it's a developer experience, developer speed play, that if you're from a background that you're more used to writing a programming language than a YAML, you might actually enjoy using the CDK over writing straight CloudFormation or SAM.Corey: When I first kicked the tires on the CDK, my first initial obstacle—which I've struggled with in this industry for a bit—is that I'm just good enough of a programmer to get myself in trouble. Whenever I wind up having a problem that StackOverflow doesn't immediately shine a light on, my default solution is to resort to my weapon of choice, which is brute force. That sometimes works out, sometimes doesn't. And as I went through the CDK, a couple of times in service to a project that I'll explain shortly, I made a bunch of missteps with it. The first and most obvious one is that AWS claims publicly that it has support in a bunch of languages: .NET, Python, there's obviously TypeScript, there's Go support for it—I believe that went generally available—and I'm sure I'm missing one or two, I think? Aren't I?Matt: Yeah, it's: TypeScript, JavaScript, Python Java.Net, and Go. I think those are the currently supported languages.Corey: Java. That's the one that I keep forgetting. It's the block printing to the script that is basically Java cursive. The problem I run into, and this is true of most things in my experience, when a company says that we have deployed an SDK for all of the following languages, there is very clearly a first-class citizen language and then the rest that more or less drift along behind with varying degrees of fidelity. In my experience, when I tried it for the first time in Python, it was not a great experience for me.When I learned just enough JavaScript, and by extension TypeScript, to be dangerous, it worked a lot better. Or at least I could blame all the problems I ran into on my complete novice status when it comes to JavaScript and TypeScript at the time. Is that directionally aligned with what you've experienced, given that you work in a large company that uses this, and presumably, once you have more than, I don't know, two developers, you start to take on aspects of a polyglot shop no matter where you are, on some level?Matt: Yeah. So personally, I jump between Java, Python, and TypeScript whenever I'm writing projects. So, when it comes to the CDK, you'd assume I'd be using all three. I typically stick to TypeScript and that's just because personally, I've had the best experience using it. For anybody who doesn't know the way CDK works for all the languages, it's not that they have written a custom, like, SDK for each of these languages; it's a case of it uses a Node process underneath them and the language actually interacts with—it's like the compiled JavaScript version is basically what they all interact with.So, it means there are some limitations on what you can do in that language. I can't remember the full list, but it just means that it is native in all those languages, but there are certain features that you might be like, “Ah,” whereas, in TypeScript, you can just use all of TypeScript. And my first inclination was actually, I was using the Python one and I was having issues with some compiler errors and things that are just caused by that process. And it's something that talking in the cdk.dev Slack community—there is actually a very active—Corey: Which is wonderful, I will point out.Matt: [laugh]. Thank you. There is actually, like, an awesome Python community in there, but if you ask them, they would all ask for improvements to the language. So, personally if someone's new, I always recommend they start with TypeScript and then branch out as they learn the CDK so they can understand is this a me problem, or is this a problem caused by the implementation?Corey: From my perspective, I didn't do anything approaching that level of deep dive. I took a shortcut that I find has served me reasonably well in the course of my career, when I'm trying to do something in Python, and you pull up a tutorial—which I'm a big fan of reading experience reports, and blog posts, and here's how to get started—and they all have the same problem, which is step one, “Run npm install.” And that's “Hmm, you know, I don't recall that being a standard part of the Python tooling.” It's clearly designed and interpreted and contextualized through a lens of JavaScript. Let's remove that translation layer, let's remove any weird issues I'm going to have in that transpilation process, and just talk in the language it written in. Will this solve my problems? Oh, absolutely not, but it will remove a subset of them that I am certain to go blundering into like a small lost child trying to cross an eight-lane freeway.Matt: Yeah. I've heard a lot of people say the same thing. Because the CDK CLI is a Node process, you need it no matter what language you use. So, if they were distributing some kind of universal binary that just integrated with the languages, it would definitely solve a lot of people's issues with trying to combine languages at deploy time.Corey: One of the challenges that I've had as I go through the process of iterating on the project—but I guess I should probably describe it for those who have not been following along with my misadventures; I write blog posts about it from time to time because I need a toy problem to kick around sometimes because my consulting work is all advisory and I don't want to be a talking head-I have a Twitter client called lasttweetinaws.com. It's free; go and use it. It does all kinds of interesting things for authoring Twitter threads.And I wanted to deploy that to a bunch of different AWS regions, as it turns out, 20 or so at the moment. And that led to a lot of interesting projects and having to learn how to think about these things differently because no one sensible deploys an application simultaneously to what amounts to every AWS region, without canary testing, and having a phased rollout in the rest. But I'm reckless, and honestly, as said earlier, a bad programmer. So, that works out. And trying to find ways to make this all work and fit together led iteratively towards me discovering that the CDK was really kind of awesome for a lot of this.That said, there were definitely some fairly gnarly things I learned as I went through it, due in no small part to help I received from generous randos in the cdk.dev Slack team. And it's gotten to a point where it's working, and as an added bonus, I even mostly understand what he's doing, which is just kind of wild to me.Matt: It's one of those interesting things where because it's a programming language, you can use it out of the box the way it's designed to be used where you can just write your simple logic which generates your CloudFormation, or you can do whatever crazy logic you want to do on top of that to make your app work the way you want it to work. And providing you're not in a company like Liberty, where I'm going to do a code review, if no one's stopping you, you can do your crazy experiments. And if you understand that, it's good. But I do think something like the multi-region deploy, I mean, with CDK, if you'd have a construct, it takes in a variable that you can just say what the region is, so you can actually just write a for loop and pass it in, which does make things a lot easier than, I don't know, try to do it with a YAML, which you can pass in parameters, but you're going to get a lot more complicated a lot quicker.Corey: The approach that I took philosophically was I wrote everything in a region-agnostic way. And it would be instantiated and be told what region to run it in as an environment variable that CDK deploy was called. And then I just deploy 20 simultaneous stacks through GitHub Actions, which invoke custom runners that runs inside of a Lambda function. And that's just a relatively basic YAML file, thanks to the magic of GitHub Actions matrix jobs. So, it fires off 20 simultaneous processes and on every commit to the main branch, and then after about two-and-a-half minutes, it has been deployed globally everywhere and I get notified on anything that fails, which is always fun and exciting to learn those things.That has been, overall, just a really useful experiment and an experience because you're right, you could theoretically run this as a single CDK deploy and then wind up having an iterate through a list of regions. The challenge I have there is that unless I start getting into really convoluted asynchronous concurrency stuff, it feels like it'll just take forever. At two-and-a-half minutes a region times 20 regions, that's the better part of an hour on every deploy and no one's got that kind of patience. So, I wound up just parallelizing it a bit further up the stack. That said, I bet they are relatively straightforward ways, given the async is a big part of JavaScript, to do this simultaneously.Matt: One of the pieces of feedback I've seen about CDK is if you have multiple stacks in the same project, it'll deploy them one at a time. And that's just because it tries to understand the dependencies between the stacks and then it works out which one should go first. But a lot of people have said, “Well, I don't want that. If I have 20 stacks, I want all 20 to go at once the way you're saying.” And I have seen that people have been writing plugins to enable concurrent deploys with CDK out of the box. So, it may be something that it's not an out-of-the-box feature, but it might be something that you can pull in a community plug-in to actually make work.Corey: Most of my problems with it at this point are really problems with CloudFormation. CloudFormation does not support well, if at all, secure string parameters from the AWS Systems Manager parameter store, which is my default go-to for secret storage, and Secrets Manager is supported, but that also cost 40 cents a month per secret. And not for nothing, I don't really want to have all five secrets deployed to Secrets Manager in every region this thing is in. I don't really want to pay $20 a month for this basically free application, just to hold some secrets. So, I wound up talking to some folks in the Slack channel and what we came up with was, I have a centralized S3 bucket that has a JSON object that lives in there.It's only accessible from the deployment role, and it grabs that at deploy time and stuffs it into environment variables when it pushes these things out. That's the only stateful part of all of this. And it felt like that is, on some level, a pattern that a lot of people would benefit from if it had better native support. But the counterargument that if you're only deploying to one or two regions, then Secrets Manager is the right answer for a lot of this and it's not that big of a deal.Matt: Yeah. And it's another one of those things, if you're deploying in Liberty, we'll say, “Well, your secret is unencrypted at runtime, so you probably need a KMS key involved in that,” which as you know, the costs of KMS, it depends on if it's a personal solution or if it's something for, like, a Fortune 100 company. And if it's personal solution, I mean, what you're saying sounds great that it's IAM restricted in S3, and then that way only at deploy time can be read; it actually could be a custom construct that someone can build and publish out there to the construct library—or the construct hub, I should say.Corey: To be clear, the reason I'm okay with this, from a security perspective is one, this is in a dedicated AWS account. This is the only thing that lives in that account. And two, the only API credentials we're talking about are the application-specific credentials for this Twitter client when it winds up talking to the Twitter API. Basically, if you get access to these and are able to steal them and deploy somewhere else, you get no access to customer data, you get—or user data because this is not charge for anything—you get no access to things that have been sent out; all you get to do is submit tweets to Twitter and it'll have the string ‘Last Tweet in AWS' as your client, rather than whatever normal client you would use. It's not exactly what we'd call a high-value target because all the sensitive to a user data lives in local storage in their browser. It is fully stateless.Matt: Yeah, so this is what I mean. Like, it's the difference in what you're using your app for. Perfect case of, you can just go into the Twitter app and just withdraw those credentials and do it again if something happens, whereas as I say, if you're building it for Liberty, that it will not pass a lot of our Well-Architected reviews, just for that reason.Corey: If I were going to go and deploy this at a more, I guess, locked down environment, I would be tempted to find alternative approaches such as having it stored encrypted at rest via KMS in S3 is one option. So, is having global DynamoDB tables that wind up grabbing those things, even grabbing it at runtime if necessary. There are ways to make that credential more secure at rest. It's just, I look at this from a real-world perspective of what is the actual attack surface on this, and I have a really hard time just identifying anything that is going to be meaningful with regard to an exploit. If you're listening to this and have a lot of thoughts on that matter, please reach out I'm willing to learn and change my opinion on things.Matt: One thing I will say about the Dynamo approach you mentioned, I'm not sure everybody knows this, but inside the same Dynamo table, you can scope down a row. You can be, like, “This row and this field in this row can only be accessed from this one Lambda function.” So, there's a lot of really awesome security features inside DynamoDB that I don't think most people take advantage of, but they open up a lot of options for simplicity.Corey: Is that tied to the very recent announcement about Lambda getting SourceArn as a condition key? In other words, you can say, “This specific Lambda function,” as opposed to, “A Lambda in this account?” Like that was a relatively recent Advent that I haven't fully explored the nuances of.Matt: Yeah, like, that has opened a lot of doors. I mean, the Dynamo being able to be locked out in your row has been around for a while, but the new Lambda from SourceArn is awesome because, yeah, as you say, you can literally say this thing, as opposed to, you have to start going into tags, or you have to start going into something else to find it.Corey: So, I want to talk about something you just alluded to, which is the Well-Architected Framework. And initially, when it launched, it was a whole framework, and AWS made a lot of noise about it on keynote stages, as they are want to do. And then later, they created a quote-unquote, “Well-Architected Tool,” which let's be very direct, it's the checkbox survey form, at least the last time I looked at it. And they now have the six pillars of the Well-Architected Framework where they talk about things like security, cost, sustainability is the new pillar, I don't know, absorbency, or whatever the remainders are. I can't think of them off the top of my head. How does that map to your experience with the CDK?Matt: Yeah, so out of the box, the CDK from day one was designed to have sensible defaults. And that's why a lot of the things you deploy have opinions. I talked to a couple of the Heroes and they were like, “I wish it had less opinions.” But that's why whenever you deploy something, it's got a bunch of configuration already in there. For me, in the CDK, whenever I use constructs, or stacks, or deploying anything in the CDK, I always build it in a well-architected way.And that's such a loaded sentence whenever you say the word ‘well-architected,' that people go, “What do you mean?” And that's where I go through the six pillars. And in Liberty, we have a process, it used to be called SCORP because it was five pillars, but not SCORPS [laugh] because they added sustainability. But that's where for every stack, we'll go through it and we'll be like, “Okay, let's have the discussion.” And we will use the tool that you mentioned, I mean, the tool, as you say, it's a bunch of tick boxes with a text box, but the idea is we'll get in a room and as we build the starter patterns or these pieces of infrastructure that people are going to reuse, we'll run the well-architected review against the framework before anybody gets to generate it.And then we can say, out of the box, if you generate this thing, these are the pros and cons against the Well-Architected Framework of what you're getting. Because we can't make it a hundred percent bulletproof for your use case because we don't know it, but we can tell you out of the box, what it does. And then that way, you can keep building so they start off with something that is well documented how well architected it is, and then you can start having—it makes it a lot easier to have those conversations as they go forward. Because you just have to talk about the delta as they start adding their own code. Then you can and you go, “Okay, you've added these 20 lines. Let's talk about what they do.” And that's why I always think you can do a strong connection between infrastructure-as-code and well architected.Corey: As I look through the actual six pillars of the Well-Architected Framework: sustainability, cost optimization, performance, efficiency, reliability, security, and operational excellence, as I think through the nature of what this shitpost thread Twitter client is, I am reasonably confident across all of those pillars. I mean, first off, when it comes to the cost optimization pillar, please, don't come to my house and tell me how that works. Yeah, obnoxiously the security pillar is sort of the thing that winds up causing a problem for this because this is an account deployed by Control Tower. And when I was getting this all set up, my monthly cost for this thing was something like a dollar in charges and then another sixteen dollars for the AWS config rule evaluations on all of the deploys, which is… it just feels like a tax on going about your business, but fine, whatever. Cost and sustainability, from my perspective, also tend to be hand-in-glove when it comes to this stuff.When no one is using the client, it is not taking up any compute resources, it has no carbon footprint of which to speak, by my understanding, it's very hard to optimize this down further from a sustainability perspective without barging my way into the middle of an AWS negotiation with one of its power companies.Matt: So, for everyone listening, watch as we do a live well-architected review because—Corey: Oh yeah, I expect—Matt: —this is what they are. [laugh].Corey: You joke; we should do this on Twitter one of these days. I think would be a fantastic conversation. Or Twitch, or whatever the kids are using these days. Yeah.Matt: Yeah.Corey: And again, if so much of it, too, is thinking about the context. Security, you work for one of the world's largest insurance companies. I shitpost for a living. The relative access and consequences of screwing up the security on this are nowhere near equivalent. And I think that's something that often gets lost, per the perfect be the enemy of the good.Matt: Yeah that's why, unfortunately, the Well-Architected Tool is quite loose. So, that's why they have the Well-Architected Framework, which is, there's a white paper that just covers anything which is quite big, and then they wrote specific lenses for, like, serverless or other use cases that are shorter. And then when you do a well-architected review, it's like loose on, sort of like, how are you applying the principles of well-architected. And the conversation that we just had about security, so you would write that down in the box and be, like, “Okay, so I understand if anybody gets this credential, it means they can post this Last Tweet in AWS, and that's okay.”Corey: The client, not the Twitter account, to be clear.Matt: Yeah. So, that's okay. That's what you just mark down in the well-architected review. And then if we go to day one on the future, you can compare it and we can go, “Oh. Okay, so last time, you said this,” and you can go, “Well, actually, I decided to—” or you just keep it as a note.Corey: “We pivoted. We're a bank now.” Yeah.Matt: [laugh]. So, that's where—we do more than tweets now. We decided to do microtransactions through cryptocurrency over Twitter. I don't know but if you—Corey: And that ends this conversation. No no. [laugh].Matt: [laugh]. But yeah, so if something changes, that's what the well-architected reviews for. It's about facilitating the conversation between the architect and the engineer. That's all it is.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friend EnterpriseDB. EnterpriseDB has been powering enterprise applications with PostgreSQL for 15 years. And now EnterpriseDB has you covered wherever you deploy PostgreSQL on-premises, private cloud, and they just announced a fully-managed service on AWS and Azure called BigAnimal, all one word. Don't leave managing your database to your cloud vendor because they're too busy launching another half-dozen managed databases to focus on any one of them that they didn't build themselves. Instead, work with the experts over at EnterpriseDB. They can save you time and money, they can even help you migrate legacy applications—including Oracle—to the cloud. To learn more, try BigAnimal for free. Go to biganimal.com/snark, and tell them Corey sent you.Corey: And the lens is also helpful in that this is a serverless application. So, we're going to view it through that lens, which is great because the original version of the Well-Architected Tool is, “Oh, you built this thing entirely in Lambda? Have you bought some reserved instances for it?” And it's, yeah, why do I feel like I have to explain to AWS how their own systems work? This makes it a lot more streamlined and talks about this, though, it still does struggle with the concept of—in my case—a stateless app. That is still something that I think is not the common path. Imagine that: my code is also non-traditional. Who knew?Matt: Who knew? The one thing that's good about it, if anybody doesn't know, they just updated the serverless lens about, I don't know, a week or two ago. So, they added in a bunch of more use cases. So, if you've read it six months ago, or even three months ago, go back and reread it because they spent a good year updating it.Corey: Thank you for telling me that. That will of course wind up in next week's issue of Last Week in AWS. You can go back and look at the archives and figure out what week record of this then. Good work. One thing that I have learned as well as of yesterday, as it turns out, before we wound up having this recording—obviously because yesterday generally tends to come before today, that is a universal truism—is it I had to do a bit of refactoring.Because what I learned when I was in New York live-tweeting the AWS Summit, is that the Route 53 latency record works based upon where your DNS server is. Yeah, that makes sense. I use Tailscale and wind up using my Pi-hole, which lives back in my house in San Francisco. Yeah, I was always getting us-west-1 from across the country. Cool.For those weird edge cases like me—because this is not the common case—how do I force a local region? Ah, I'll give it its own individual region prepend as a subdomain. Getting that to work with both the global lasttweetinaws.com domain as well as the subdomain on API Gateway through the CDK was not obvious on how to do it.Randall Hunt over at Caylent was awfully generous and came up with a proof-of-concept in about three minutes because he's Randall, and that was extraordinarily helpful. But a challenge I ran into was that the CDK deploy would fail because the way that CloudFormation was rendered in the way it was trying to do stuff, “Oh, that already has that domain affiliated in a different way.” I had to do a CDK destroy then a CDK deploy for each one. Now, not the end of the world, but it got me thinking, everything that I see around the CDK more or less distills down to either greenfield or a day one experience. That's great, but throw it all away and start over is often not what you get to do.And even though Amazon says it's always day one, those of us in, you know, real companies don't get to just treat everything as brand new and throw away everything older than 18 months. What is the day two experience looking like for you? Because you clearly have a legacy business. By legacy, I of course, use it in the condescending engineering term that means it makes actual money, rather than just telling really good stories to venture capitalists for 20 years.Matt: Yeah. We still have mainframes running that make a lot of money. So, I don't mock legacy at all.Corey: “What's that piece of crap do?” “Well, about $4 billion a year in revenue. Perhaps show some respect.” It's a common refrain.Matt: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, anyone listening, don't mock legacy because as Corey says, it is running the business. But for us when it comes to day two, it's something that I'm actually really passionate about this in general because it is really easy. Like I did it with CDK patterns, it's really easy to come out and be like, “Okay, we're going to create a bunch of starter patterns, or quickstarts”—or whatever flavor that you came up with—“And then you're going to deploy this thing, and we're going to have you in production and 30 seconds.” But even day one later that day—not even necessarily day two—it depends on who it was that deployed it and how long they've been using AWS.So, you hear these stories of people who deployed something to experiment, and they either forget to delete, it cost them a lot of money or they tried to change it and it breaks because they didn't understand what was in it. And this is where the community starts to diverge in their opinions on what AWS CDK should be. There's a lot of people who think that at the minute CDK, even if you create an abstraction in a construct, even if I create a construct and put it in the construct library that you get to use, it still unravels and deploys as part of your deploy. So, everything that's associated with it, you don't own and you technically need to understand that at some point because it might, in theory, break. Whereas there's a lot of people who think, “Okay, the CDK needs to go server side and an abstraction needs to stay an abstraction in the cloud. And then that way, if somebody is looking at a 20-line CDK construct or stack, then it stays 20 lines. It never unravels to something crazy underneath.”I mean, that's one pro tip thing. It'd be awesome if that could work. I'm not sure how the support for that would work from a—if you've got something running on the cloud, I'm pretty sure AWS [laugh] aren't going to jump on a call to support some construct that I deployed, so I'm not sure how that will work in the open-source sense. But what we're doing at Liberty is the other way. So, I mean, we famously have things like the software accelerator that lets you pick a pattern or create your pipelines and you're deployed, but now what we're doing is we're building a lot of telemetry and automated information around what you deployed so that way—and it's all based on Well-Architected, common theme. So, that way, what you can do is you can go into [crosstalk 00:26:07]—Corey: It's partially [unintelligible 00:26:07], and partially at a glance, figure out okay, are there some things that can be easily remediated as we basically shift that whole thing left?Matt: Yeah, so if you deploy something, and it should be good the second you deploy it, but then you start making changes. Because you're Corey, you just start adding some stuff and you deploy it. And if it's really bad, it won't deploy. Like, that's the Liberty setup. There's a bunch of rules that all go, “Okay, that's really bad. That'll cause damage to customers.”But there's a large gap between bad and good that people don't really understand the difference that can cost a lot of money or can cause a lot of grief for developers because they go down the wrong path. So, that's why what we're now building is, after you deploy, there's a dashboard that'll just come up and be like, “Hey, we've noticed that your Lambda function has too little memory. It's going to be slow. You're going to have bad cold starts.” Or you know, things like that.The knowledge that I have had the gain through hard fighting over the past couple of years putting it into automation, and that way, combined with the well-architected reviews, you actually get me sitting in a call going, “Okay, let's talk about what you're building,” that hopefully guides people the right way. But I still think there's so much more we can do for day two because even if you deploy the best solution today, six months from now, AWS are releasing ten new services that make it easier to do what you just did. So, someone also needs to build something that shows you the delta to get to the best. And that would involve AWS or somebody thinking cohesively, like, these are how we use our products. And I don't think there's a market for it as a third-party company, unfortunately, but I do think that's where we need to get to, that at day two somebody can give—the way we're trying to do for Liberty—advice, automated that says, “I see what you're doing, but it would be better if you did this instead.”Corey: Yeah, I definitely want to spend more time thinking about these things and analyzing how we wind up addressing them and how we think about them going forward. I learned a lot of these lessons over a decade ago. I was fairly deep into using Puppet, and came to the fair and balanced conclusion that Puppet was a steaming piece of crap. So, the solution was that I was one of the very early developers behind SaltStack, which was going to do everything right. And it was and it was awesome and it was glorious, right up until I saw an environment deployed by someone else who was not as familiar with the tool as I was, at which point I realized hell is other people's use cases.And the way that they contextualize these things, you craft a finely balanced torque wrench, it's a thing of beauty, and people complain about the crappy hammer. “You're holding it wrong. No, don't do it that way.” So, I have an awful lot of sympathy for people building platform-level tooling like this, where it works super well for the use case that they're in, but not necessarily… they're not necessarily aligned in other ways. It's a very hard nut to crack.Matt: Yeah. And like, even as you mentioned earlier, if you take one piece of AWS, for example, API Gateway—and I love the API Gateway team; if you're listening, don't hate on me—but there's, like, 47,000 different ways you can deploy an API Gateway. And the CDK has to cover all of those, it would be a lot easier if there was less ways that you could deploy the thing and then you can start crafting user experiences on a platform. But whenever you start thinking that every AWS component is kind of the same, like think of the amount of ways you're can deploy a Lambda function now, or think of the, like, containers. I'll not even go into [laugh] the different ways to run containers.If you're building a platform, either you support it all and then it sort of gets quite generic-y, or you're going to do, like, what serverless cloud are doing though, like Jeremy Daly is building this unique experience that's like, “Okay, the code is going to build the infrastructure, so just build a website, and we'll do it all behind it.” And I think they're really interesting because they're sort of opposites, in that one doesn't want to support everything, but should theoretically, for their slice of customers, be awesome, and then the other ones, like, “Well, let's see what you're going to do. Let's have a go at it and I should hopefully support it.”Corey: I think that there's so much that can be done on this. But before we wind up calling it an episode, I had one further question that I wanted to explore around the recent results of the community CDK survey that I believe is a quarterly event. And I read the analysis on this, and I talked about it briefly in the newsletter, but it talks about adoption and a few other aspects of it. And one of the big things it looks at is the number of people who are contributing to the CDK in an open-source context. Am I just thinking about this the wrong way when I think that, well, this is a tool that helps me build out cloud infrastructure; me having to contribute code to this thing at all is something of a bug, whereas yeah, I want this thing to work out super well—Docker is open-source, but you'll never see me contributing things to Docker ever, as a pull request, because it does, as it says on the tin; I don't have any problems that I'm aware of that, ooh, it should do this instead. I mean, I have opinions on that, but those aren't pull requests; those are complete, you know, shifts in product strategy, which it turns out is not quite done on GitHub.Matt: So, it's funny I, a while ago, was talking to a lad who was the person who came up with the idea for the CDK. And CDK is pretty much the open-source project for AWS if you look at what they have. And the thought behind it, it's meant to evolve into what people want and need. So yes, there is a product manager in AWS, and there's a team fully dedicated to building it, but the ultimate aspiration was always it should be bigger than AWS and it should be community-driven. Now personally, I'm not sure—like you just said it—what the incentive is, given that right now CDK only works with CloudFormation, which means that you are directly helping with an AWS tool, but it does give me hope for, like, their CDK for Terraform, and their CDK for Kubernetes, and there's other flavors based on the same technology as AWS CDK that potentially could have a thriving open-source community because they work across all the clouds. So, it might make more sense for people to jump in there.Corey: Yeah, I don't necessarily think that there's a strong value proposition as it stands today for the idea of the CDK becoming something that works across other cloud providers. I know it technically has the capability, but if I think that Python isn't quite a first-class experience, I don't even want to imagine what other providers are going to look like from that particular context.Matt: Yeah, and that's from what I understand, I haven't personally jumped into the CDK for Terraform and we didn't talk about it here, but in CDK, you get your different levels of construct. And is, like, a CloudFormation-level construct, so everything that's in there directly maps to a property in CloudFormation, and then L2 is AWS's opinion on safe defaults, and then L3 is when someone like me comes along and turns it into something that you may find useful. So, it's a pattern. As far as I know, CDK for Terraform is still on L1. They haven't got the rich collection—Corey: And L4 is just hiring you as a consultant—Matt: [laugh].Corey: —to come in fix my nonsense for me?Matt: [laugh]. That's it. L4 could be Pulumi recently announced that you can use AWS CDK constructs inside it. But I think it's one of those things where the constructs, if they can move across these different tools the way AWS CDK constructs now work inside Pulumi, and there's a beta version that works inside CDK for Terraform, then it may or may not make sense for people to contribute to this stuff because we're not building at a higher level. It's just the vision is hard for most people to get clear in their head because it needs articulated and told as a clear strategy.And then, you know, as you said, it is an AWS product strategy, so I'm not sure what you get back by contributing to the project, other than, like, Thorsten—I should say, so Thorsten who wrote the book with me, he is the number three contributor, I think, to the CDK. And that's just because he is such a big user of it that if he sees something that annoys him, he just comes in and tries to fix it. So, the benefit is, he gets to use the tool. But he is a super user, so I'm not sure, outside of super users, what the use case is.Corey: I really want to thank you for, I want to say spending as much time talking to me about this stuff as you have, but that doesn't really go far enough. Because so much of how I think about this invariably winds up linking back to things that you have done and have been advocating for in that community for such a long time. If it's not you personally, just, like, your fingerprints are all over this thing. So, it's one of those areas where the entire software developer ecosystem is really built on the shoulders of others who have done a lot of work that came before. Often you don't get any visibility of who those people are, so it's interesting whenever I get to talk to someone whose work I have directly built upon that I get to say thank you. So, thank you for this. I really do appreciate how much more straightforward a lot of this is than my previous approach of clicking in the console and then lying about it to provision infrastructure.Matt: Oh, no worries. Thank you for the thank you. I mean, at the end of the day, all of this stuff is just—it helps me as much as it helps everybody else, and we're all trying to do make everything quicker for ourselves, at the end of the day.Corey: If people want to learn more about what you're up to, where's the best place to find you these days? They can always take a job at Liberty; I hear good things about it.Matt: Yeah, we're always looking for people at Liberty, so come look up our careers. But Twitter is always the best place. So, I'm @NIDeveloper on Twitter. You should find me pretty quickly, or just type Matt Coulter into Google, you'll get me.Corey: I like it. It's always good when it's like, “Oh, I'm the top Google result for my own name.” On some level, that becomes an interesting thing. Some folks into it super well, John Smith has some challenges, but you know, most people are somewhere in the middle of that.Matt: I didn't used to be number one, but there's a guy called the Kangaroo Kid in Australia, who is, like, a stunt driver, who was number one, and [laugh] I always thought it was funny if people googled and got him and thought it was me. So, it's not anymore.Corey: Thank you again for, I guess, all that you do. And of course, taking the time to suffer my slings and arrows as I continue to revise my opinion of the CDK upward.Matt: No worries. Thank you for having me.Corey: Matt Coulter, senior architect at Liberty Mutual. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice and leave an angry comment as well that will not actually work because it has to be transpiled through a JavaScript engine first.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Ethics is that weird branch of philosophy that concerns itself with conduct and questions of good and evil and right and wrong. And those four words good and evil, and right and wrong sound like they should be like, oh yes, good is right. And evil is wrong, but there are always shades of gray in between. You can do an evil act in the cause of right. You can do a good act in the cause of wrong. Welcome to the weird world of ethics and how it touches our friendships. This episode explores how we can help each other, and how remembering the art of friendship can help you in the midst of the turmoil of ethics, evil, and kindness. How can you prevail with kindness and not have anything else come into your circle? And just have it be a kind happy world. Ethics 2 TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Fawn: Welcome back everybody. [00:00:01] Matt: Hello [00:00:02] Fawn: hi, good morning. And good evening. Good afternoon. Good all. Good all. All is well. All is well. [00:00:12] Matt: So we gonna put our, [00:00:13] Fawn: no matter what, [00:00:14] Matt: we're gonna put our college caps on today and talk about ethics. [00:00:16] Fawn: Yeah, we started a, we started a thing actually. We're letting you in on really the conversations we have in our kitchen, or when we go out for coffee. Inevitably. It always turns into the ethical dilemma. [00:00:33] Matt: I love, I love the game ethical dilemma, because very scary. You can split the hair and all of a sudden somebody's gonna do something god awful. [00:00:41] Fawn: And it makes me when we play ethical dilemma, it makes me wanna flip the table over. I don't like it. I feel very depressed,

Matt Danna is the Co-Founder and CEO of Boulevard, which powers next-gen salons and spas. Its mission is to modernize the technology while improving the daily lives of professionals and the clients they serve. Chad talks with Matt about discovering a problem and then making the jump to working on it, overcoming hurdles in terms of continued growth, and deciding to invest in building their own hardware by creating Boulevard Duo: a point of sale credit card reader. Boulevard (https://www.joinblvd.com/) Boulevard Duo (https://shop.joinblvd.com/products/duo) Follow Boulevard on Twitter (https://twitter.com/joinblvd), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/joinblvd/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/joinblvd/), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/boulevard/), or YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo9FyMtvqrDGHFl797iOhww). Follow Matt on Twitter (https://twitter.com/mattdanna) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattdanna/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Matt Danna, the Co-Founder and CEO of Boulevard, which powers next-gen salons and spas. Matt, thank you so much for joining me. MATT: Thanks so much for having me, Chad. Great to be here. CHAD: One of the things that I was interested in learning about Boulevard is it's a large product that does a lot for salons and spas. And so, I'm interested in talking with you about the process of getting to where you are today. But why don't we get started by giving folks an overview of everything that Boulevard does for salons and spas? MATT: Yeah, absolutely. So Boulevard offers what we think is the first and really only business management platform that's really focused around the client experience. We work with businesses that help all of us look and feel our best. And it's a really special industry to be powering where there's a really close sense of that human touch and that human element. We try to use technology to help automate and relieve the day-to-day operations as much as we can for these businesses so that they can focus on providing that world-class client experience and deepening relationships with their clients. CHAD: And tactically, that's online booking, scheduling, payments, schedule management, all that kind of stuff that goes into running. MATT: Yeah, absolutely. So it goes all the way from, like you said, scheduling to we are a fully integrated payments solution to even have time clock kind of commission reporting. And so it really goes from managing everything front of house all the way through back of house. And happy to share more about how we ended up building such a wide and deep product because it's definitely an interesting story. CHAD: So you were not in the salon industry prior to Boulevard, is that right? MATT: That's correct. CHAD: So, how did you end up getting brought into this industry? MATT: So the founding story...so my background is in software engineering, but I ended up turning much more into a designer over time. So I've been naturally drawn to building technology for creative individuals. And so, at my last startup, which was called Fullscreen, it was a startup here in LA. We were helping YouTube creators make better content online, helping them monetize on YouTube, understand their audience. And this was in the days where YouTubers couldn't monetize directly. They needed to go through a network. And so, we created this proprietary technology offering that really helped them understand how to build their audience and further monetize. So the original founding story was that I met my co-founder of Boulevard at Fullscreen. His name is Sean Stavropoulos. And I was the VP of Product. He was the VP of Engineering. And the kind of inception moment was that there was this week where Sean's hair was a complete disaster. CHAD: [chuckles] MATT: And as a great colleague, I was making fun of him [laughs] and telling him like, "Dude, you need to go get a haircut." And he said to me that he kept forgetting to call his salon during the day to make an appointment, and at night when he remembered to do those types of things, the salon is obviously closed. And we were just thinking how much friction there was as a client of these businesses in the booking process and that we didn't understand why you had to do basically so much work in order to be a client. It just was incongruent with what was going on in other industries and kind of restaurants and everything going through this digital transformation. Our hypothesis was that they must still be on pen and paper; they haven't adopted technology yet, and that's why you need to call to make an appointment. And we started thinking a lot about this problem and started obsessing over it. [laughs] And there was a weekend that we were hanging out, and we ended up walking into a few different salons and spas in a neighborhood that we were hanging out. And we did a bunch of research and asked them a lot of questions. We said we were UCLA students working on a research project. CHAD: [laughs] MATT: Which was a pretty smart move because everyone loves talking to students, and we weren't trying to sell them anything. We were trying to learn more. And so, a good research tip is just to state you're always a student. And we ended up learning. And we were super surprised that they were all using technology. All the technology that these businesses were using were also capable of online booking. And so we were like, "Okay, none of this makes sense. Like, you're making your customers call you, but you have these capabilities." We were like, "Do you need help embedding it into your website? Like, why don't you use online booking" And their answer would be, "We absolutely cannot use online booking, no way," which made us even more curious. And so what we ended up learning was that self-care businesses, you know, salons, spas, nail salons, you name it, they're generally running on pretty thin profit margins like in the 5% to 10% neighborhood because their labor costs are so high relative to their sales. And the other important piece that we learned was that the front desk has outsized control over the revenue that the business makes simply by how they place appointments on the calendar. And so when you call to make an appointment, they're looking up to see if you have a client file, to see if you've been there before, what services did you get? Who were they with? How long exactly did they take? They're also looking to see when they could fit you in. And they're doing double booking, triple booking whenever possible so that staff can be with multiple clients at once and double up. And then they're also making sure there are no gaps between appointments. And so they're doing basically this yield optimization, schedule optimization on the fly. And none of that was taken into account if customers self-booked using any of the solutions available on the market. And so we thought that seems like a straight-up technology problem to solve that these businesses needed an online booking solution so customers can have that convenience and self-booking whenever they want. But it also needs to take into account some of that business logic that the front desk follows so that they don't get gaps in the day and have a really sub-optimal and inefficient calendar. And so that's where we thought we could provide some particular value that would be unique in the industry. And that was what we focused our MVP on, was that very thing, having an intelligent scheduling solution. CHAD: It seems like it's a pretty big leap for the director of product and director of engineering at a startup to discover a problem like this and then actually make the jump to working on it [laughs] and making it real. Was there something in particular that happened? Why did you do that? [laughs] MATT: Yeah, I mean, we had a, you know, being executives at the startup and really loving the team, loving what we were doing, our mission. But I think one of the motivators and catalysts was when we were doing this field research. And we ended up going out to a couple of hundred businesses over the course of several weekends to learn even more about this problem area. But one of the things that was so evident and clear was that all of the technology in the market that these customers, these businesses were using, they were negative NPS scores. They were like, "Oh, we use, you know, X, Y, or Z solution, and we really don't like it. It's so hard to use." You would see the red in their eyes when they would talk about this technology." And we're like, "There's something very powerful here." And we weren't exactly sure at the time was it legacy technology not keeping up with modern needs of these businesses and the growing expectations from end consumers, or was it user error problems? And we had come to the conclusion that it was really a lack of innovation in the market from existing vendors. And that got us particularly excited, and we formed a lot of conviction, so much conviction that we made the leap to start working on this. So we transitioned out of our full-time executive day jobs, and we ended up doing a little bit of consulting work while we were doing a lot of product discovery. So for about six months, we were doing three days a week on Boulevard and a couple of days a week on consulting. So it was a nice little part-time way to keep paying the bills but also then be able to spend a significant amount of our brain space thinking about this opportunity and what problems we wanted to solve. CHAD: So maybe I'm just off base here. And I'm not trying to get you to say that something was wrong at Fullscreen. But it strikes me there needed to be something going on, in my mind, maybe I'm off base, for you to even before deciding to make that leap, though, to spend your weekends going to salons and doing interviews. MATT: Yeah, I think this is how most companies are started is by founders who are trying to solve a problem that they're exposed to. So everyone is always trying to build companies that are solutions for problems that they have. And we just, I think, got excited by this problem. And my background being in building technology for the creative individuals, like, I got really, really excited. And Sean took some convincing that this was worth it and that this could be a thing. CHAD: Was it an aspiration for you to find something that you could use to found your own company? MATT: No, no. CHAD: And then why were you doing it? [laughs] MATT: I think it felt like the right thing to do. I never considered myself an entrepreneur, and I really still don't. I think of myself as a builder, and I love building things. And this was in a way for us to think about, like, oh, let's build a company and turn this into a massive business. We saw that there was a particular pain point that was experienced from both consumers and businesses and that we could provide something special. It felt like it was something that only we saw, which I think made it feel even more compelling to work on. And so we didn't know if we were crazy at first. We always had this question of like, why hasn't anyone figured this out? This seems so obvious. I still don't know why we're the only ones that have any type of kind of logic on top of the schedule in that sense. But we saw it as a unique opportunity to build something really special and provide a lot of value to consumers and businesses. CHAD: Well, that's super interesting. So once you decided and you started working on Boulevard, how did you decide what to focus on first? And how did you set your market for what the first version was going to be or a target for what the first version was going to be? MATT: So, we focused on the businesses that had a front desk. So those are generally the ones that really struggled with getting the most out of every minute possible in the day. And so we focused on what were typically mid to upper market single locations to start, and we got introduced to a salon owner through a mutual friend. They were based in New York, and it was just a two-person salon. And so, we built our MVP to be able to support their day-to-day functions. And they were using some other system, so we kind of had to get to a place where there was general feature parity to support them. So we built up the features that we needed, and then we launched them, transitioned them off their previous solution. And then we did all this in person and then hung out with them for about a week or two after to babysit the system, make sure there weren't problems. We were iterating in real-time. Sean and I were releasing code. And from there, we got an intro to our second customer through another mutual friend. CHAD: How long did it take you from when you started to when it was live in that first salon? MATT: It took about nine months. CHAD: And were you self-funding that based on the consulting that you mentioned? MATT: Yeah, self-funding. And then, after we launched with the first business, Sean and I actually both liquidated our 401Ks. And we didn't have the time to continue to consult. So we bootstrapped the company and put our life savings into it once we had traction from our first couple of customers. And that's when we started to hire our first employees to help us continue to accelerate development and that kind of thing. CHAD: So again, liquidating your 401k is a pretty big step. MATT: Yep. CHAD: Did you try to do external fundraising before doing that? MATT: No. At that point, not yet. We wanted to really validate the concept on our own dime. And then, when we had paying customers and a decent customer base, we did a friends and family round. And then, once we achieved a certain milestone, we joined an accelerator, which is based in Los Angeles called Luma Launch. And we were part of that accelerator for about six months. And then we raised our series seed following that. We went from liquidating our savings, living like college students, ramen noodle budget-type to once we felt good about the value we were providing, had the case studies and the customer feedback, and had a pretty awesome MVP to show to investors; that's when we decided to fundraise. CHAD: How nervous were the two of you? MATT: Very nervous. [laughter] I mean, it's one of those both of us come from really, really humble families, and there was no safety net. And so we were all in. And I think often from when there's a lot of constraints; you have to find creativity. We were all in. We were working all the time on this, really gave it everything we had. And in hindsight, it was a good decision. But it could have easily been a terrible decision. [laughs] CHAD: I mean, this is one of the things with founding stories is we talk to the people who are successful. [laughs] So, would you recommend this path to other people? MATT: I think if it's something where you could see providing unique value to the world and that you have lots of validation from real people, not just your friends but from prospective customers...it was when we were talking to real businesses where they would say, "This is something we would use and pay for." And so, after hearing that dozens and dozens of times, that matched with the negative NPS scores with their current solutions. That's where we were like, "This can be something pretty special." So I wouldn't recommend building in isolation and making that leap of faith without really doing your diligence on the opportunity. But yeah, I think everyone, at some point, if they have an idea or a problem they want to solve, should give it a go. Mid-Roll Ad: I wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. We do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. Whether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U. CHAD: That first customer that you were building the replacement for, were you charging them? MATT: No, we were not. CHAD: Are they paying now? MATT: They are, they are, very little. CHAD: Okay. [chuckles] MATT: They're a small business and have been staying super successful. And so, in the earliest days, the learnings and feedback matter a lot more than revenue, and so you optimize for that as opposed to the economics. And so for us going and working on location at these businesses and they're paying us essentially in the learnings and teachings of helping us understand and absorb ourselves in this industry, and working as front desk and doing the jobs that all these professionals have to do. And so that's where we were able to build and get to a place where our product is really, really authentic. And it was from that first direct observation. CHAD: I've worked on products before where they're currently being done by people. They might have technology solutions in place, and they feel like there's no technology that will do this; we need to have a person being the one to do it. Because like you said, there's something special about a person doing it. And so sometimes those businesses, when they have a solution, even if they've properly solved it, there's a lot of resistance from customers who are very skeptical that the technology is going to be able to do it the right way. Have you encountered that? MATT: Absolutely. CHAD: How do you combat that? MATT: We iterated on, essentially, the objections. So the first objection was that "People can't book online because it's going to mess up my day." And so we created this what we call precision scheduling, where it does the optimization on the calendar. And then the next issue was that we started seeing some no-shows coming because I think there's this mental analog of if you miss an OpenTable reservation not as big of a deal. But in our industry that we're serving, if you miss a two-hour appointment, that professional is out a significant amount of their income for the week. And so that's where we actually started dipping our toes in payments, and we started requiring a credit card at the time of booking just to authorize the card and to hold the appointment. And so that objection of no shows we solved there. There was a lot of concern of like, "Hey, our customers are not going to know the right thing to book." And we have learned that customers actually are very savvy and that the clients deserve more credit than the professionals are giving them that if a woman gets a balayage, she knows it's a balayage. And so, usually, the way that we overcame that objection was we'd work with them and have best practices on menu design. But that they also then, when they're giving a service that they discuss what they actually did in that service so that the customer knows what to book next time if they want the same thing. And so that was kind of the pattern is like, build something, learn, iterate, and do it on location with these businesses so that we could see it firsthand in an unbiased way. And so that's really how we were able to build such a product with this amount of scale and overcome some of those initial objections. CHAD: Is it easier now that you have 2000-plus customers, some social capital out there? They can ask other people, "Is this working for you?" Is that easier now? MATT: Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the ways...we didn't have a sales team for a long time in our company, and we were actually under the radar. We were stealth, didn't announce anything about ourselves for the first three or four years. And so we were just very much focused on product development and building something that was incredible. And then we were really fed off of referrals and that word of mouth. So it's I think when you get a product that people love, they're going to tell their friends about it. And for us, that really helped accelerate our growth. CHAD: So yeah, so this was all taking place in what year? MATT: So we transitioned out of our last company and started doing part-time work in summer of 2015. And then, we officially launched our first customer in spring of 2016. CHAD: Cool. And I think that that is, you know, you didn't get to 2,000 customers overnight, right? You've been at this for a while. MATT: Yeah, the barrier to entry is very high in the market, and VCs called our type of opportunity a brownfield opportunity where there are a lot of legacy solutions in the market. And we compete with some companies that were actually started before I was born. CHAD: [chuckles] MATT: And so they've had many decades to build functionality into their platform that we need to get to some level of feature parity with in order to seamlessly transition them off of their previous solution to our platform. And it did take a significant upfront investment with product in order to get to be able to pay the price of admission and to be able to actually compete in the market. CHAD: So one of the things I'm curious about is, do you have a sense of what does the overall market looks like? I feel like there are probably lots of salons, spas, haircutting places. There are a lot of them all over the world. MATT: There are, yeah. So we believe that there are about 500,000 self-care businesses in the United States. CHAD: Just in the United States. MATT: Yeah, just in the United States. And the employee base in the labor market is about two to two and a half million professionals across all those businesses. CHAD: So, where do you think the hurdles in terms of continued growth are for you? MATT: So one of the areas that we focus on is...so all of these self-care businesses are about 90% similar in how they operate. And so we started in the hair salon vertical and then have expanded into many adjacent verticals over the course of the past few years. We really tried to make sure that we had really, really strong product-market fit in the hair salons, which is the biggest self-care market, and before we expanded into, say, nail salons. When expanding into adjacent verticals, there's some functionality that is unique to those verticals. And so, for example, one of our recent verticals that we expanded into is med spas. And the way that med spas charge for their services is generally based on the products that are used, and so if you buy 100 units of Botox, they charge a per-unit fee. And so that was something that was pretty unique to the medspa market that doesn't exist in other self-care markets. And so vertical expansion is a vector of growth for us and then segment expansion. So we started with the single location, very small businesses. And then we have worked our way up to enterprise where we're powering chains and franchises of hundreds of locations. And then the other aspects kind of the third vector of growth is the different product sets and functionality that we are releasing to our customers. So continuing to develop the platform but also look at different opportunities where we can provide outsized value by developing it ourselves. CHAD: So we could literally talk all day, and I could talk to you about scaling and product and everything. But one thing I'm interested in before we wrap up is I think it's really special to found a company with a designer, a product person, and an engineer. And I can tell even just by looking at the site and the product that you very highly value design and creating a product that people love to use. MATT: Absolutely. CHAD: How does that lead you to creating Duo, which is a point of sale card reader? MATT: One of the things that we saw in the market was this real importance in service design so what information is showing when to the users of our technology. So there's that aspect of what's the overall experience? Then there's the product design; how easy is it to use? And how quickly can new employees, new front desk staff, how quickly can they get ramped up and start using the system? Do they need two weeks of training? And for us, we try to make it as intuitive and as familiar as possible. And then we look to see how else can we extend design? And one of the complaints that we always received from customers was that hardware options were always pretty ugly, that all of them look dated like the kind of hardware that you use at a supermarket. And they wanted something that was more sleek and that they weren't ashamed to have on their countertop for checkout. And so that's where we decided to invest in building our own hardware. And that was particularly exciting for us. So it's been really, really well-received from our customers. And it was a really fun project to work on. Getting into the hardware space is always challenging. But as a designer, it was super cool to build something that became physical for the first time in my life. CHAD: Does the logic that led to you creating Duo eventually lead you to creating an entire hardware point of sale system? MATT: We're assessing all opportunities. There's this interesting moment happening in the payments space where like Apple, you know, announced that I think they're piloting now that you won't need hardware in order to accept credit card payments on the iPhone. CHAD: You'll just be able to do it right against an iPad. MATT: Exactly. So I think there's a real question as to what is the...and I'm sure this is something that folks like Square are thinking about, that have really best in class hardware is like what does the future of hardware look for fintech companies? And is it just going to fold into the actual devices, or will you continue to need standalone readers? That's something that we're constantly thinking about and keeping smart on the latest developments in that. But our expertise and what we love is building incredible software. Hardware was that area that we saw that we could provide unique value, but our goal is to always be a software company. You generally don't make much money off of the hardware piece in this business. CHAD: Now, how personally involved were you in the hardware project? MATT: I was very involved, potentially too involved. [laughs] CHAD: As a founder, when new projects come up like this that maybe you're interested in, how do you either hold yourself back or not hold yourself back from being involved in them? MATT: I think when the company is venturing into new territory, entirely new like uncharted waters, that's when it's valuable for me or any founder to get really, really smart on what's the opportunity, what's the risks, all that kind of stuff. In this case, my experience working at our initial customers for the first couple of years of our business was really, really impactful. And so our Duo captures...and the reason why it's called Duo is because it's a countertop, but also you can take the top off, and you can do an in chair checkout. So you could bring it over to the customer, and they can check out right while they're in the chair as an express checkout. And so those types of things I learned while being on location working at these businesses. And so I was providing a lot of the guidance and conceptualizing how we could think about what the hardware offering would be that would be unique to us, and collaborated with our head of design and then an industrial designer to get the proof of concept there. CHAD: And you said, "Potentially too involved," so why did you say that? [laughs] MATT: I think as a founder, you are always trying to figure out what altitude are you flying at. And there are some things that you will need to dive in and be very hands-on. And then there are other times just to guide and support and coach. And I think for this because it was a new project, I was particularly excited to be able to get into hardware because that was a first for me that I was involved in all aspects of it. But it was a lot of fun. CHAD: Awesome. Well, Matt, thank you so much for stopping by and sharing with us. I really appreciate it. I'm sure the listeners do too. If folks want to find out more about Boulevard, about joining the team, about becoming a customer, or just to get in touch with you, where are all the different places that they can do that? MATT: Yeah, absolutely. I think the best place is just on our website. We are hiring across all levels and all functions, especially on the product design and engineering side. And so our website is joinblvd.com, J-O-I-N-B-L-V-D.com. There's the about page, and it links out to my LinkedIn. So if anyone wants to connect and get acquainted, that's probably the easiest way to do it. CHAD: Awesome. Well, thanks again for joining me. I really appreciate it. MATT: Yeah, thanks so much. This was a pleasure. CHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with links for everything that Matt just mentioned and including a complete transcript of the episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Matt Danna.

Our Kindness expert, Barry Lane is back to remind us that "Kindness is Truth, Kindness is Freedom." Barry soothes our nerves with his sweet songs (two new songs as we record live in Barry's studio - the second song is way at the end, so make sure you catch it) and words of wisdom as we navigate a possible WWIII, Civil War, life... and shows us HOPE and reminds us that everything is going to be OK. There are two new songs as we record live in Barry's studio - the second song is way at the end, so make sure you catch it. Barry: https://forcefieldforgood.com/ Barry's book: https://www.amazon.com/Force-Field-Barry-Colleen-Mestdagh/dp/1931492298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491102856&sr=8-1&keywords=force+field+for+good+barry+lane Transcript [00:00:00] Matt: Um, yeah. So how am I doing well? Um, yeah, um, challenging, um, to be honest, uh, [00:00:08] Barry: what's going on? [00:00:09] Matt: Yeah... So my mom right now is in hospice, so she's transitioning and I'm not dealing with it. Well, So an episode on kindness is going to be especially kind of challenging for me. Um, one of my favorite shows, which shouldn't be one of my favorite shows, but it is; it's "After Life" with Ricky Gervais , which is about a man who loses his wife and is falling over the whole time. And the only time he cries um, in the show, cause he's, he's, he's a, he's just an ass to everyone. Like he has so much hate and so much rage and so much, and he just doesn't care anymore. And he's like, and he starts crying and they're like, oh, don't cry. He's like, it's not the world I have a problem with it's kindness I can't handle. [00:00:56] Barry: That's interesting. [00:00:57] Matt: So when somebody is kind to him, it kind of tears apart, this big ginormous shield he has around him, so he can't be hurt. Um, and that's kind of where my head is at. I'm kind of going bouncing back and forth. Um, you know, my kids, they understand, but don't understand. And, and yeah, it's, it's, it's hard. It's been, it's been challenging so [00:01:22] Barry: Is your mom nearby? [00:01:23] Matt: No, my mom's in C

On Part One of this two-part series, you were introduced to Matt and Brian from the ACCEL Gaming Division. We discussed their background as it pertains to blockchain and gaming, involvement with ACCEL as well as P2E Gaming and their use of and integration of NFTs.On today's episode of the Podcast, Scott, Eric and Ryan welcome back Matt from the ACCEL Gaming Division to discuss how P2E Gaming, NFTs, and two exclusive projects that the ACCEL Gaming Division are working on!-----------------------------------------Episode Transcript:[Scott] On today's episode of the ACCEL Podcast, we dive deeper into the world of blockchain games and their use in the NFT World. As always, my name is Scott and I am Eric and I'm Ryan. You're listening to the ACCEL Podcast defining a decentralized view future, One listen at a time.[Scott] Thanks for tuning into part two of our series on blockchain gaming. We wanted to do something a little different this time with regards to putting the podcast together, and what we came up with was to survey the community or rather solicit questions on topics of P2E Gaming, Play-to-Earn Gaming and their use and integration with NFTs. [Ryan] So Matt, I wanted to welcome you back onto the ACCEL Podcast. How are we doing? [Matt]Good, pretty good. Thanks for having me. [Ryan] Always our pleasure. But right out the gate I feel like we've got to set the record straight as one of the leads of the ACCEL gaming division. What kind of games do you like to play? [Matt] Honestly, I like hard games. I've always been a big fan of platformers. My favorite game when I was young was Sonic. Still to this day I also love RPGs. I played most of the Final Fantasy series and a lot of the current very modern RPGs. I'm currently playing Eldon Ring. I think it's an absolute masterpiece and I'm honestly up for anything that seems some sort of a challenge or a good build up on an RPG element. [Eric] So Matt, I wanted to go back to the basics from our earlier episode in relation to what P2E or Play-to-Earn games are on. Maybe you could give us some examples of the P2E Games, what blockchains they exist on, and maybe some games that currently aren't in the space that you think could come to the blockchain. [Matt] I think the Play-to-Earn model, even though not formally it has existed for the longest time. And just calling out to our previous example. In the previous episode, RuneScape was a game that people actually started trading items for your money very long ago. And then that model was also formally implemented in Diablo Three and casually seen in World Warcraft, where it was a bit more informal. So the P2E aspect of trading time for some reward. Usually money has existed for the longest time. You can call on online casinos, online card and poker platforms, et cetera. At least those would be most of the games that would be outside of the space. And if we were to go inside the space, you have a lot of gains that have existed for a while. You have mostly yield farming gains, kind of like Axie Infinity, Crypto Cars, Bomb Crypto. A lot of these have very good options as well, and I think it's gotten pretty popular these days, so those are great examples. [Eric] So my question, can you be more type specific. In your opinion, what are the best blockchains or the best platforms that relate to the P2E Games, which makes it the easiest to navigate. [Matt] I would say anything that's currently built upon the most mainstream platforms, like you have Ripple, you have Ethereum, you have Bitcoin, which not a lot of games are tied to. Most of them are tied to Ethereum and Ripple. So I would look into something with that. You also have BNB and other big options, and it generally is going to be tied to whatever the devs think is the most stable platform to build upon. [Eric] All right, so now that you touched upon with the devs, in a devs opinion, let's say, or in your own opinion, if you're acting as a Dev, what would be the most profitable? [Matt] I would say just not to give out names because I would get burned for that. But whichever has the most potential for growth, because as the game grows, as the community grows, as the base grows, so does everything else tied to it, the tokens, the rewards, and everything gets better. So whatever is going to have the biggest room to grow is going to be the thing that's going to give the most returns. [Scott] So I guess it kind of follow up question of that is, I completely understand that. I think we see this craze with there being talk about Solana and Matic being big for gaming, but the big thing is for it to be scalable. Can you kind of give us a little bit of an explanation how these P2E Games are kind of profitable for the developers, even going back to the online poker and stuff like that, how do you actually make money off of it? And how is it that you're not throwing money at making these games that just don't have any returns on them? [Matt] Yeah, it usually comes down to how you model the economy of the game itself. For example, the real money trading market and Diablo Three actually had a transaction Commission for every buy and every sale. So that is also true with a lot of the current crypto games. There is a transaction fee that is being used in every single transaction by yourself. Kind of like being repetitive here, but that's usually how devs can still hold a pool of the big amount of those resources to make sure that they don't run out, to make sure that they can scale over time to make sure that tokens don't get overcapped and to its own. It's similar to how every company operates when you're first starting out in a company, you're always going to have some sort of shareholding because you're invested in the project and they can't really pay you a full salary. So they pay you in equity that gets you involved. And that makes you be sure that if the company does well and it scales, then so is going to be your share. [Scott] That makes sense. So it's all about kind of making sure at the early stages you're bringing in the right people and then making sure you have the right backing. I guess that kind of ties into what my next question would kind of be. And it's a commonly asked question that we see a lot over in the ACCEL community is how does P2E Games work in attracting people that aren't currently interested in the crypto space? Are you seeing kind of trends that are starting, that are really kind of pushing for that game, by experience, by outside investors that maybe might be involved in investing, but not in crypto or even individuals that might not invest at all? [Matt] I would like to break that into different viewpoints for different kinds of profiles. First, as an investor, why would this be like an important thing to you? Because as an investor, like crypto projects actually have a very good standpoint in the fact that they can actually have a bigger growth than most of traditional investments. So it's a very attractive market to get into. Also, as the game skills, as the community scales, you can also bring a lot of other things to the table where we touched a bit on the last episode about things like fractal ownership. So you don't even have to bring money all the time. You don't have to bring funding on the time. Maybe you own your musician, you want to stay a part of your music. Ownerships are all right. So you can get people that get that NFT can get royalties, and there are so many other valuable things that you can actually just convert into this game or market. And then from the player's side, obviously most of the people you have people that have been in crypto for a while, and you have people that have games for a while. For those who have games for a while, like me, it's really cool because now I can actually sit for hours in front of a screen, play, be good at a game and actually get something out of it, rather than my mom telling me to go to bed. So that's from one side and then you have the other side, which is the people that are in crypto who usually are more into the investment side, they actually have a fun way of interacting with their tokens, a fun way of watching those stakes and rewards and investments grow in a way that you're more of an active participant into everything. And it's a bit fun rather than just sitting there and watching candles on a chart. Not that's a bad thing, but there's more to life than that. [Ryan] So Matt, I wanted to backtrack for a moment and specifically discuss the earn in Play-to-Earn games. Could you discuss how and what exactly players earn in these games and how NFTs come into play? [Matt] Absolutely. Well, the earned part of any interaction that involves real money is done through tokens. 99% of the time is done through tokens. When you go to the horse tracking bed. Like you get this little slips of paper that you can later and cash in if you win. When you go to the casino, you get chips that you can cash in if you win. And sort of every single game has that mechanic built in where you win tokens inside the game and then you convert your tokens to get outside of the game. And this draws a very strong parallel with how everything in the physical world currently works. So the model is not really that different. And where do NFTs come into play here? A lot of these can usually be done or used as collection based items of a Rarity based items. And you can hold these NFTs that would be implemented into the game. And as the NFT or the usage of the character or the item or anything that it is gets more popular and more popular and it increases in value because the community perceives it to be rare or to be more valuable than others. That's a really good way for people to get involved is like, if you have the sense that an NFT is going to become popular, you can get it minted early and then when people use it, when it becomes popular, and what increases value and someone wants to rent it off of you or someone wants to permanently buy it off of you, it'll most likely have increased in value from when you brought it in. [Eric] So Matt, touching on NFTs and regarding NFTs because we know how huge they are now in the crypto space, how they function within the P2E Garning model. Could you talk a little bit about that? And ACCEL's recent acquisition of the Soldiers of the Metaverse NFT collection and how the SOTM NFTs will be tied into ACCEL and What I'm starting to hear their Mortal Kombat style P2E Game that is currently in their development, which I know you have a tremendous impact on. [Matt] Oh yeah, it's been such a fun time to work on the model for the Satin acquisition. And I think you have the basics, which not all of the NFT's are currently implemented in the game. We have a decent line up of characters, but not all of them as of yet. So the NFT in itself will increase in value as the game increases in popularity. Because who doesn't want to own a very rare Batman comic? If you're into comics, it's sort of the same community perception that makes you geo cards, rare, magic cards rare, like comic books are very rare or old collectibles, et cetera. Those things are very important because they tie back to someone's ability to own the NFT, believe in the project, but not necessarily play the game. There's people that don't like fighting style games. There's people that maybe they didn't like how complicated certain inputs might be, or they might not be their favorite time type of game. So that allows and gives people the flexibility to have something sticked into the game, not necessarily have to play it because you don't like the mechanics of the game itself, and then you can still participate somewhat into how everything's going to go up into the game. [Eric] So, Matt, if it's possible to could you just elaborate a little bit on the beta access in relation to the NFTs? [Matt] Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's something that has come up recently. The game is currently in beta access. We're working with a limited pool of people that are currently testing the game and helping out with ironing the bugs and making sure that we find anything that might be exploitable, et cetera. Because when you're going to stake tokens into a game, you want to make sure that everything is stable and fair as possible. The beta access, I think, has been going on, not for too long. It's still going to be out there for a bit. So if someone wants to get involved, I think it would be a good idea to look up the project. And obviously as the game goes on and it moves to like a pretty lease sort of endpoint, all the other questions are going to be answered over time. Right now, I can tell you I've actually played it and it's really fun. And the mechanics, at least the fighting game mechanics are really solid, not great with inputs, but that didn't stop me from actually just getting a combo or two in. [Ryan] Matt, that's good stuff. That's good stuff. But what if I'm not interested in playing this game? So is there an incentive to purchase and hold one of the Soldiers NFTs if I'm not interested in playing this game? Yeah, there would be, because for the same reason that I own a big ass Batman hand painting, because it's more related to how people perceive the value of the community around the game itself, rather than you just playing the game. There's a whole bunch of people that have a million posters or a lot of things, and I'm not good at drawing, but it's not going to stop me from going out and investing in something that I believe is very well drawn and stuff like that, because as I said before, it allows me to participate in something and being a part in something without actually having to play it. If I own a soldier and the game becomes popular, that's also going to benefit me because my soldiers both the Mint price if it were to be reissued or new soldiers were to be issued, and the acquisition price for my own NFT as well is going to go up. So even if I don't play, there are still ways for me to benefit off of the project. [Scott] So I guess, Matt, my next question would kind of be for you. We brought in a developer recently that was added to the team that kind of specializes in staking pool build out. And one of the things he does is NFT building out for staking pools. And it's kind of a new concept that's really starting to catch on. And with passive income being a huge part of ACCEL, can you kind of elaborate a little bit on how these NFT Staking pools work and what you kind of see them doing in the future? [Matt] Yes, I think I am not an expert in the topic, but honestly, it's one of the trends that I've seen come up a lot recently. And the idea of an Ft staking, if I'm not mistaken, would be among the lines of something similar to rent, kind of like you can put your entity out there and people can use it. And obviously, for every win that the character has, you get a bit of a share. And that is also true for other games where you actually are the owner of something, but you still get royalties if someone else rents it out for usage. And a common topic that comes to mind for that is, again, just the RMT market and Diablo Three, where not only you could purchase weapons, you could actually just borrow them for a day, but you have a lot of these very good options to own something and not having to sell it for someone else to be able to use it. And at the same time, given that you didn't have to sell it, you also were able to accrue, one might say rent or profit off of it, kind of like in the horse track how the jockey isn't really the one that owns the horse. So the guy that owns the horse still gets profits if the horse wins and the jockey get profits if the horse wins. So it's sort of like this mixed ownership model that allows people, as we said before, people that might not have zero interest in playing the game. They can stake an NFT that is actually currently tied into the game for people that do want to play the game but may not have an NFT ready at the moment for them to be able to play, to stick to win, and then they both profit a lot from that interaction. [Scott] Okay, Matt, so I guess they got a little bit of a follow up question for you, because I think the big thing that we kind of see with what we were just talking about, people want to be able to profit off of NFTs, and I think something we really want to see is the ability to bring our own art or ideas to life. Is this something that you kind of see how some of the games have to is the ability for people to bring their own ideas, their art into fruition? [Matt] That's kind of a hard question, and I want to divide it into two parts. I would say both yes and no. And the reason for that is that it can be done. But that doesn't mean every project is going to implement it. Why? Because you can build the Game around the NFTs, or you can build the NFTs around the game, which is kind of like the example with Axie and like the current games that you have out there, because the NFTs are specifically designed to work in a pattern in a way that the game itself implements, rather than the Game having to adapt to any new NFTs because there are not a lot of interoperability projects. And interoperability. What it means is basically a way for the same item to work in different ways in different games. There is, I think, the Loot project, and it's really, really cool because every single game can infer the stats of the items themselves. Like they just give you the NFT, so you can basically implement it in any way that you'd like. But that also requires a lot of manpower. It also requires you to be able to implement something that bridges that interaction with a random NFT. And that is not only rendering or models or physics or whatever it is, it's something that is really hard to plan when basically the NFT world is endless. So, yes, I believe there might be a project in the future. I can see projects coming up that sort of implement that, but I also see it's going to be very hard to do. So I think we might still be as a community as a whole. Like the NFT community still might be a bit far off from getting that done. It's definitely a huge stream to have, and it's definitely something that I would look forward to. But at the current time, with the current capabilities, I think we're still a bit far away from that. [Eric] So, Matt, it seems like a lot of these P2E Games require some sort of initial investment at first to play. But do you know of any games that don't have any buy in but still use the P2E Model? [Matt] Yeah, I can think of a few, honestly. There are, if I'm not mistaken, at least one or two games that have that implemented. But to be more specific, I want to talk about an upcoming game. It's called PHLIP. You're going to see it soon in the announcements, if not already. And this sort of ties back to the previous question, which is something that I like a lot. And PHLIP is one of the first games that sort of implemented this kind of freestyle mode into the NFTs because it's just a card game, but it's really fun, and I suggest you check it out. [Eric] So, Matt, you've intrigued me a little bit here about PHLIP, but you kind of gave us some info, but you really didn't let us know what it's about. Could you just give us a little more so our listeners can really get a greater grasp of what PHLIP is about? [Matt] So basically, yeah, this game has a similar model to Cards Against Humanity, but implements a lot of more of the freestyle way where you can come up with your own phrases. There's going to be cards that you could mint as NFTs, and they're also going to follow that model that we've mentioned about before. The general idea of the game, if you haven't played Cards Against Humanity, is to just come up with the funniest possible phrase to an image. An image is going to be thrown out, and then you just throw your cards. Whoever gets the funniest answer is going to win. And then cards are going to have different rewards. And basically, like, if you get voted by the judge, you're also going to get some rewards. And that's a really fun way of getting involved playing a game. If you're currently not involved in the crypto space that you like to have fun and all these fun games, that is a really good gate into whatever it is because you can be funny. And if you're funny, you have currently found a way to make that funny profit for you without having to go to stand up comedy and Saturdays. [Ryan] So, Matt, how do you feel about the Soldiers of the Metaverse project or even the PHLIP project? Are you guys, ACCEL or does ACCEL have any special plans to keep it fresh and relevant for new players coming in? [Matt] Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it would be important or interesting for people to know about that, because you might think that people that come in and made first come, first served, and they're the only ones that are going to get good rewards with time. And that's not true. The idea is that we want to bring in as many people as possible. We want to bring in people not only right now, we want to bring in more and more people as the project evolves and grows and implement new mechanics, implement ladder, implement tournaments, implement different sorts of things that will make the game evolve over time, like the soldiers of the metaphors that you're seeing right now that you're going to see at launch will not be the solution of the matters that you see two to three years from now. We want to make sure that this project goes on for a long while, and that requires a very delicate balance of a lot of things, but also a lot of work from our part to keep it fresh and making sure there's always, like, different things. So the community is always excited about the next thing that's going to come, and that's the same for Flip. I think while being a simpler game, there's still a lot of different things that can be done for that. So that's something that we're also looking into. [Eric] So, Matt, is there anything else you can tell our listeners about how we kind of plan to tie the ACCEL gaming ecosystem together as a whole. [Matt] Yeah, actually I have a very good nugget for everyone out there listening and that is that we are working every game in such a way that it is either directly or indirectly tied to one another. So if you're a part of one, you're always going to have preferred access to the next one. You can get probably early access to some of the newer games. You can get preferred staking when converting to one game to another. There's a million surprises coming off and I would strongly suggest that if you are not an existing holder you can come in now. There's a lot of cool things coming in, especially with NFT minting. So that's going to allow you to be part of a very select group of people that get to test a lot of these things early. [Eric] Once again, I want to thank all our listeners for tuning in again today to the ACCEL podcast. Please feel free to join us on Telegram or check the show notes for our link tree. [Ryan] And Matt, thank you for your time and for being a part of the ACCEL podcast, especially this two part mega episode. As Eric said previously, check out the show notes for all of our links and our link tree and even a full transcript of this episode. You want to go back and read some of the things that were said as always sit back, and ACCEL!-----------------------------------------The Information presented in this podcast is provided for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, and without any express or implied warranty of any kind, including warranties of accuracy, completeness, or fitness for any particular purpose. The Information contained in or provided from or through this podcast is not intended to be and does not constitute financial advice, investment advice, trading advice, or any other advice. The Information provided from or through this podcast is general in nature and is not specific to you, the user or anyone else. You should not make any decision, financial, investment, trading or otherwise, based on any of the information presented without undertaking independent due diligence and consultation with a professional broker or financial advisor.You understand that you are using any and all information from this podcast at your own risk.

I've known today's guest before I even ventured into the professional WordPress industry. In fact, it wasn't his themes that revolutionized my thinking, it was the checkout process. Brian Gardner launched a theme company using a payment portal and delivery tool called e-junkie. I just checked, they still exist, they were the Gumroad before Web 3.0 was even a thought in Web 2.0's mind. I couldn't believe it. Someone could zip up WordPress code, put it on a website, set a price, and someone could buy it?! I wanted to do the same thing. But until then, I had an agency to run so I used Revolution Themes, then Genesis, then to the whole StudioPress suite to make that happen. Fast forward, Gardner not only sold SP to WP Engine, but he left the gig shortly after, only to make a return with his latest product, Frost. Enjoy today's conversation with Brian Gardner, Principal Developer Advocate at WP Engine, creator of many things and many blogs. Find his newly redesigned blog at briandgardner.com. If you fancy supporting the show, buying me a digital coffee or joining my fantastic private Discord server, head on over to buymeacoffe.com/mattreport — I'll shout your name from the Twitter rooftops. Episode Transcript [00:00:00] Matt: so many folks who sit on the sidelines and Monday quarterback like me I see folks sell their business and , and they joined the team and I know in my heart that as a builder, as an entrepreneur, , they won't be there that long.[00:00:14] And they're there for a year. I think roughly you were at WP engine for a year after selling studio[00:00:20] Brian: press to them longer than that. But it sort of been to which in and of itself as a piece of conversation. Go ahead.[00:00:26] Matt: And then I saw you sort of leave P and L I was like, yep. I knew it. And there's nothing wrong with that because God that we have such a passion to build something, but I don't know of anyone who's who sells it to the company, leaves built something else, sells it back to the company and.[00:00:41] You're going for a hat trick question, mark.[00:00:44] Brian: No. No. And in fact, it's, it's funny, you are the only person who, with the exception of Bob Paul, Lacey, who had months ago made a kind of comment about that. You're the only person in this round when I got hired and when Frost was acquired to actually have.[00:01:01] Pointed that out. And of course I took that bait and this is why we're on the show today. But I talked to our PR team and I was like, look, this is just something that could be a thing that people might talk about or in this context. And surprisingly, and that's fine because it's really, it really was a news event.[00:01:16] This time around Yeah. I was just like, okay, what are the possible negative reactions? People might have to something like this. And I was like, that's about the only thing I can come up with. Well, people may point out that this happened and it, whatever, it's all good. Everyone's happy. You've built a[00:01:31] Matt: lot of stuff from digital products to courses, to eBooks, to blogs, to knit mail email lists and newsletters, like all things that were in some form or fashion, a business, a micro business.[00:01:43] When I saw you. Go back to a WP engine and they had acquired frost in my head. I started thinking, you know what, these, and this is my words, not yours. And I hope it doesn't offend you. But these micro products are almost like a fantastic calling card to get an awesome gig. Right. Ha had it not been you, but somebody else in this position, it could be like, I built an awesome little product.[00:02:11] And sometimes the weight of that is like, oh God, I got to S I get up market. I gotta sell it. I gotta promote it. I gotta support it. I got to take over the world. But then sometimes it's like, no, I can actually use this in place of a resume and get an awesome job somewhere. Is that a fair statement?[00:02:27] Brian: I would think so.[00:02:28] I don't think that that necessarily applies to everybody. We know right now, Matt, that the competitive landscape in WordPress is off the charts, especially in light of the behemoths. And, and we're one of them, right? WP, engine, GoDaddy, liquid web, all those it's really difficult to, and I'll conversely, make a counter argument here after this.[00:02:47] It's very difficult to like create and launch something new and have it be successful and widely adopted and so on now, conversely. That is also, if you have the idea, something really, really brilliant, that really solves a problem that catches a lot of users and stuff like that. Then it becomes because of aforementioned behemoths, a very interesting acquisition piece, right?[00:03:07] Go to liquid web. They've bought a lot of things lately. None of them have been, well, that's not true. Some have been larger, right. Eye themes and so on. And then some of them are just like smaller pieces that kind of fill a niche that allow them to use their sort of their. The abilities to reach and build and support from an infrastructure standpoint, a subset of people.[00:03:28] And so it can work. It can be, I wouldn't necessarily say that should be someone's business plan. Just given my tenure in the industry and the success I've had, it's been helpful to have that sort of be true.[00:03:41] Matt: Web hosts, obviously WP engine being one of the largest, if not the largest managed WordPress hosts in the industry GoDaddy liquid web.[00:03:49] I think a lot of folks myself included have sort of illustrated this picture, that well, we all kind of hypothesized that they're all looking to build and curate their own WordPress experience. Without giving away the secret meetings, maybe at WP engine and the secret sauce. Is that, is that something that you see coming down the pipe, maybe if not WP engine others, and maybe why they acquire fros and studio presses to sort of put these pieces in place.[00:04:19] So when you come to a WP engine, you experienced WordPress. You go to liquid web, you experience it that way. Is, is that something that you see as holding true in the year 20, 20[00:04:28] Brian: a hundred percent, a hundred percent. I think we see it on several levels. And even outside of the WordPress market, just the, sort of the consolidation, the platform building, go daddy sold domains back in the day.[00:04:39] Then they went to hosting. And then when they realized that the people who are buying those things would buy other things or are doing other things. Then all of a sudden they're an email marketing company and then, oh, WordPress explodes. Now we're going to be a WordPress hosting email, but like, like, and so yes, it makes sense.[00:04:54] And everyone's good at what they do. And when you really find what you're great at, then you sort of, I wouldn't say exploit, but then you really sort of double down on that by looking around in the space and saying, Hey, are there products that align with what we're trying to do? And is it, is it better for us to acquire those products?[00:05:10] Because it takes us less time to build. We can go right to market. We can, there's an existing audience as studio press was a huge audience that WP engine picked up and things like that. So yeah, I would say that's a fair state. Do you know,[00:05:21] Matt: there's in the news and the courting eh, in the week of this week, it's January 13th.[00:05:27] And we've seen over the last week, just a lot of discussion of paying contributors in the WordPress space. It's something that I've always thought of too, like going way back, like how. All these folks volunteer. They all have to go through the stress of like a theme developer. Like I was way, way, way back in the day, asking them why didn't this team get approved?[00:05:47] Why are you telling me I have to adjust this tab space in the functions file. Like it's so subjective. I should just be like, lots of stress. That folks don't really need to go through as volunteers now resurfacing again, how to get people paid. I think hosting companies are in a good position since.[00:06:06] Winning off of the back of WordPress, that there could be something there, more sponsored contributions more ways to it doesn't doesn't maybe always have to be about payments. It could be about featuring or highlighting or spotlighting folks because not everybody wants to make money off their volunteer ism with WordPress.[00:06:25] Is, are there any efforts or maybe. Contributing more to core with paid positions, let's say. Is that kind of a topic fall under a principal developer advocate at WP engine? Are those the kinds of things you hear in field for the company?[00:06:41] Brian: Yes. WP engine did not hire me so that I could go write code for WordPress.[00:06:45] Let's let's be clear about that. Damn they did. However, Hire me because of my expertise, my tenure in the field, my ability to understand the value that I could bring through the WordPress and WP engine sort of relationship. And as part of the leeway and the latitude I've been given to go do my thing. I brought on Nick Diego, who is an engineer.[00:07:07] And I learned V and he, he actually was supposed to backfill me with frost before the acquisition for us was going to be a side project. And because of my job, I brought in Nick to help sort of carry the load until I realized how much Nick and I aligned and what a resource he could be. And so I made the recommendation that we hire him as part of a developer relations so that we could do the very thing, right.[00:07:28] Part of his responsibilities and part of what I pitched was. There is an opportunity for us to sort of lead the space from a thought leadership perspective to help contribute code as he and I were both knee deep and code following along, the Gutenberg development where press 5.9 and stuff.[00:07:43] And I said, there's a lot of things that we're finding as we're working through building our thing that instead of just trying to like make a fix or a hack inside of our product Contribute that code or that patch or the fix, or the suggested way of doing things upstream back to WordPress.[00:07:59] And so a lot of the work that we're doing now is in fact core contribution stuff. Nick is also going to be doing some stuff with learn. And so w. WP engine just really understands the value of sort of the five for the future stuff. We've got several members committed to that. We just recently did it contribute to WP day where we really encouraged a lot of the folks in the community to do stuff like that.[00:08:20] And so I'm because like you said, I have one with WordPress for 15 years now. Right. It helped me leave my day job. Provides for my family and stuff like that. So I always have a place in my heart. It's easier now because I have the backing and support of WP engine and our resources to kind of make that move.[00:08:38] And I'm not getting any resistance from the higher ups there. They, I think they see the value and the contributions and sort of the, the PR that comes from that. There's some, there's some benefit there. But we just want to see WordPress get better. So our products and our customers experience.[00:08:54] Matt: How does frost fold into speaking of customer experience? How does frost fold into the. The existing suite of softwares that you sold them studio press. How does that merge? Is, are we still too early on, on those days for those, for those discussions, but how does it fold into the experience of WP engine users or potentially even studio press users?[00:09:15] So[00:09:15] Brian: this pet, let me give some context. So th this past summer after a sort of a failed attempt at doing something in the real estate space I came across an article. Written by Justin tablet on WP Tavern. And in that article, he was talking about block patterns and this is sort of as like the patterns kind of were hitting their infancy and they talk about there being a pattern directory and stuff like that.[00:09:38] I've obviously followed WordPress even while I was sort of away doing some things with real estate. I was like, okay, we sold studio press in part because I had no idea what the future of WordPress was going to be. Right. That was part of the reason we just didn't have the resources. We weren't sure we, we didn't want to compete.[00:09:52] And so we sold that.[00:09:58] We talked, I'm a creator. I'm always thinking I always want to build and do stuff like that. And so, so when I was on this article, I went over to the, the pattern repository or the directory and it, there was like a little tile of patterns and there's a button that said click to copy code or whatever, copied it.[00:10:13] I went into my blog, so I was doing something and I just hit paste. And like this thing showed up like this arrangement of design. And I was like, wait a second. I like that. That's like a theme agnostic design agnostic thing. And I think it was like, at that point was when sort of, it was very, very like original epiphany that kind of backed the frost project.[00:10:33] When I was like, wait a second. Now I understand where we're presses going. Right. These idea of blocks and styles and patterns and layouts that like kind of all these words being thrown around. And I was like, wait a second. So I can create these sections of. Website and in one click allow people to import them into a page.[00:10:50] And like, if you did that five or six times, you could essentially allow people to build a homepage and like literally 20 seconds. And I was like, okay, so that that's sorta was the, the original fire that was lit around frost. And so, because at the time it just made sense. I built frost originally as a Genesis child theme, just because right.[00:11:08] Part of the family. It was what I've always known. And so we launched a paid product called frost and it was a theme and it was a corresponding plugin that had all of the designs and the patterns and stuff like that. And then full site editing started to become more of a thing. And so I installed Gutenberg and realized.[00:11:25] There's going to be life after Genesis the framework, because a lot of what full site editing does is what Genesis did it handled markup and the ability to move things around. And so I said, well, Let's do what I did back in 2006, let's open up a bunch of blank files and start writing a theme from scratch.[00:11:43] And so current version of frost, probably three months ago was literally just sort of modeled after stuff I saw. I think it was on Carolina's full site editing or some tutorial on like, what is. Full site editing theme, look like it's got to have these files, the structure, it's a complete paradigm shift from where it was.[00:12:00] And I was like, let's just see if I could do this. And so I basically replicated the design of the Genesis child theme version of frost and started building out current version of frost. So that became a thing. And we launched it, started selling it. I was trying to extend a little bit of financial runway so that I could keep playing around with what I was doing.[00:12:17] So I reached out to Heather Bruner, our CEO just to say hi to check in and just see if she knew of anybody in the industry who might be looking for some contract work. And at the same time internally, they were talking about WordPress developer relations. And she says, funny, you should ask because we've been thinking of this position and I don't know.[00:12:34] That there's anybody better suited for it than you, which is the intersection of what I told her design community and WordPress. And so, we worked out something that made a lot of sense at the time frost was on the outside which I felt conflicted about because a lot of the work I was going to be doing was around WordPress and building and stuff like that.[00:12:50] And so, ultimately I made the recommendation that we just bring it into. Into the fold so that I can work on it. Full-time we can use that as a way to demonstrate where WordPress is going to teach folks in the community what's going on. And so on.[00:13:02] Matt: So it doesn't detach from you. It's not like, okay, now it's gone into the abyss of WP engine.[00:13:07] My[00:13:07] Brian: is not. And Nick and my F yeah, no, it's under our full control. It's a developer relations project.[00:13:13] Matt: Yeah. Did you, when you sat back, did you have those same feelings of okay. I going to do this again. I have to build, well, you already have a headstart with your brand and recognition and followers and all that stuff.[00:13:26] But even that, I'm sure you're still like, oh God, I gotta, I gotta do this all over again. I gotta set up a checkout system. I have to set up a licensing system. I, I have to market this thing. I gotta support. And I[00:13:36] Brian: gotta do all this stuff a hundred percent.[00:13:38] It was exciting just because it had been since studio press formed way back in the day where I was really fully in control, as we merged into Copyblogger in 2008 or nine, and then for like 10 or 12 years, we had sort of the infrastructure of the company and stuff like that.[00:13:52] So I didn't have to like, bear that load independently. As I had at the beginning of studio press. And so like, it's a different space than it was back then. And, and thankfully I have the cloud, the email lists sort of the reach, the exposure to WordPress. So it made sense. It didn't quite hit the way I was hoping that a studio press did back in the day, but again, we're in different times and that's okay.[00:14:16] But you know, like at the end of the day, what it came down to was for the last 15 years I've been doing sort of the self-employment entrepreneur things start up, you feel sort of a thing. And even like early on into frost, I was like, this is going to be another long thing and that's fine. I like this kind of thing.[00:14:33] And I think it would have done well on its own. But I was just ready. I was ready for, and I wrote about this on a torque article about seasons change. I was just ready to finally work for somebody else to, to have access to team members, to be fully supported, to get good benefits, pay, like all of those things.[00:14:48] I just, I needed a mental break and, I foresee this break being of several years, not just like a couple months, so[00:14:54] Matt: you said, I feel like frost didn't hit. Maybe like studio press fell, but different times, is that a gut feeling?[00:15:02] Did you measure it , instinctually as somebody who's launched so many things, did you just kind of know like, okay. I'm not feeling that momentum as I maybe did 10 years ago, Yeah.[00:15:13] Brian: Like when you sell something, when you build something and sell something, like you kind of get into this mindset, like, oh, I could do it again.[00:15:19] Right. Once lucky, twice. Good. And, and had I stuck with it, like just me and or Nick at that time, it would have taken probably some time to really get it to a point where it was humming WordPress itself sorta was getting in the way, because it just, it wasn't delivering things that we were looking forward to using and stuff like that.[00:15:35] So it was part gut. , okay, this isn't going to make me a hundred million dollars. Like maybe even a hundred dollars would be great sort of a thing. But I just, as like, like I wanted, I wanted power behind it, not just to have to rely on me. And like I said, I was ready, it was serendipitous me reaching out to Heather, her coming back to me, presenting the offer.[00:15:55] And it's kind of like, she was like, basically let you do what you want to be doing and what you've been doing for 15 years, just under the guise of WP engine and, having gone through the acquisition and the transition for the year afterwards. I had a ton of insight into their culture. And that made it a really easy decision to make, because that was not, is this a company I want to work for?[00:16:15] Cause the answer is hell yeah, I knew, I know how the cultures there. I think a lot of people on the outside don't understand how, how cool and great it is, especially we're 1200 strong. But I was like, wow, this is like almost a dream.[00:16:26] Matt: Yeah. I remember people talking about WP engine, just like when, when they hit 400 people, they, wow.[00:16:32] Like, that's amazing. And now it's like triple and probably just chasing automatic, which I, I think just hit the 2000 mark or just under 2000. So, it's pretty amazing to see like pure. Play companies. Because again, WP engine is only doing WordPress, right? You haven't introduced at other CMS yet.[00:16:50] Right? There's nothing they're getting into headless that might introduce some stuff that might be outside of the realm of WordPress, but you're certainly not hosting Drupal anytime soon,[00:16:59] Brian: correct? Correct.[00:17:01] Matt: That's awesome. Can we chat about the real estate endeavor for a moment? You said it fair.[00:17:09] Anything that you can point to as to maybe why wrong time global pandemic, what was going on with that, with that real estate endeavor of yours. And why did you decide to just exit it?[00:17:21] Brian: So I've always been interested in real estate. We've bought and sold houses over the years, probably 10 over the last 20 years and an agent press, which you may remember was a thing that we did a copy of.[00:17:31] For a few years. So we dabbled in it and I realized just how bad design and marketing is in that space. Generally speaking compass being the exception and maybe a few others. And so I was like, okay, well I have, through the years, I've made several relationships with people sort of higher up in the real estate industry.[00:17:50] So I knew I'd kind of have like an easy launch pad. I get design. I could build it on a WordPress. I've got some spokespeople people who could sort of be advisers to the company who are, experiencing Zillow and all that kind of stuff. And then the pandemic hit and what happened really was probably a couple of things.[00:18:04] One, it probably just wasn't built in packaged the right way. But number two real estate agents got really, really busy because of the housing. They, they, everyone, you would follow it. Oh, I have 36 offers today. Like nobody has time or at the time they didn't feel the need to have a website because their business was exploding.[00:18:24] I don't have time for a website I'm standing in line at open houses. Like, and the sad thing is like in six months or a year, whenever the housing market comes back to earth. Done dental need it, then they'll be like, oh crap. Cause now that you've got a bunch of new agents, people who jumped into the market because of all of what was going on.[00:18:41] So then like the, the demand will go down, but like the supply of agents then is there. And so there's more competition, but I was like, I, I don't have time to weather, all of that. And then frost kind of came up and, things with agent engine, just kind of, weren't really doing its thing. And I was like, I was okay with that.[00:18:55] It was a good college try[00:18:57] Matt: because it was more like it was more agency. Experience than just a product, right? Cause[00:19:02] Brian: you were, I know it was more product based. It was more, we call it digital spaces where we sort of built Jason Schuler of WordPress fame sort of built this profile management system, which I thought was really gonna take off with like associations or, brokerages that had teams of people that wanted to sort of showcase them individually.[00:19:21] Like the idea on paper was really, really good. I think we just poorly executed at the wrong time. So. But I'm okay with that. Like lessons learned, right. We're here where we are.[00:19:29] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I tell you it's what an interesting time, because you had real estate agents who, you know, probably whatever, maybe not immediate at the pandemic hitting, but a couple months in just being just the fish were jumping into the boat.[00:19:44] You didn't even have to cast a line in they're like website. I don't have time for a website, but then. This whole range at an opposite end of an industry restaurants who are like, oh, we never launched that website. And now we have to do takeout a hundred percent of the time. I know I had, I haven't been in the, my data.[00:20:04] I, my dad runs the agency. I'm well beyond that at th at this point, but it still runs. And I had tons of people calling me at that moment. Literally watching the news restaurants are shutting down, calling me up. Like, I need that website, Matt. , where, where are you? Five 10 years ago when we were telling you to do this a crazy, crazy time for web and for people who haven't caught up at that point.[00:20:26] When I look at. You were saying before, like one of your aha moments with Gutenberg was I copied and pasted and it was kind of like, wow, I can see where the vision is going. Matt Mullenweg could always talk, has always talked about WordPress being like the operating system of the web. That was something that was always interesting to me is what really kept me motivated with WordPress.[00:20:48] I now see this hearing him say that Gutenberg is bigger than WordPress, sort of, kind of nonchalantly in the state of the word. I kind of see maybe that same thing of fusing, like the operating system with code. So Genesis studio press remember back in the day, you're building it all through the functions.[00:21:06] PHP file. I can imagine a world where now you're just copy pasting snippets of code, like the query blocks and stuff like that. Pre pre queried for you. Like all the codes there. Boom, copy paste it. And now I'm developing air quotes to the listener. Who's only listening to audio. Developing by copying pasting snippets of code and dropping blocks in do you have any other future out look on, on where Gutenberg might be going?[00:21:31] Maybe things you might be looking at to build into Gutenberg. Into frost that would push the boundaries.[00:21:38] Brian: Nothing monumental. I We're just obviously following along where WordPress is going, this it's taken us three years to get here. We're working through this now full site editing thing, which I th I think is still gonna take some time.[00:21:50] Right. Which we've already seen the delay from December to January. And I was in full support of that. Cause I didn't think it was going to be ready and I'm more than okay. Especially now that I don't have to. Like obsess over building a product and like put food on the table based on what I sell. Now it's like kind of a kickback and just follow along as it's happening.[00:22:09] And, Nick and I are on get hub and select daily, oh, do you see this commit? Do you see this change? And I'll be honest. I don't know that there are many people in the group of people who are at the forefront of what's going on with WordPress. Then he and I right now, because we are so. We practically have alerts going off, in our own heads.[00:22:27] I just posted 30 seconds ago. How would I see that? Because we, we love it so much. We, we absolutely are infatuated. We call ourselves black editor, fanboys. Like it's, it's kinda crazy and almost embarrassing the extent, but 15 years later, I'm still in love with WordPress. The way that I was and even more so now, because I'm starting to see.[00:22:46] WordPress itself, starting to solve the problems that we tried to solve back in the day with like magazine style themes and stuff like that. It's so easy to want to still primarily build your own thing and around it. And, we're presses now making it so easy with where it's going. It's not perfect and never will be, but they're doing things in a way that make it really easy for people like me to sort of identify where the opportunities are.[00:23:10] And especially those who love design. I could do so much with just WordPress core and a simple theme so much. And that's how I felt back when I launched revolutions. Like, Hey.[00:23:20] Matt: And as a product owner and business owner, software developer, you kind of get that this stuff iterates over time.[00:23:28] And when Gutenberg first launched and everyone just like flipped the table, which, I was one of those folks too, but it was more about how, it was being communicated, how it was being like, whatever the Pictet at the time and enrolled that it had nothing to do about. You know the features of Gutenberg.[00:23:43] Although I still struggle with trying to like grab a block and put it in between two columns is like still a thing that I have to like wrestle and throw my computer with. I always knew like, Hey, this thing's going to get better.[00:23:54] It's just version 0.0 0, 0 1 that we're at like, don't we all like, there's so many software people in this space. Why was everybody losing their mind? That it wasn't good enough yet? This software's never good enough day one. It always gets better over time. Any thoughts on like the iteration of Gutenberg or how you looked at the launch of Gutenberg when that.[00:24:12] Yeah,[00:24:12] Brian: I was the same way. I wasn't sure it was very clunky. I think it kind of got rushed out back in that, that one December. But I think it had to be, I at some point we met that's written before about 1.0 and shipping and iterating and stuff like that. And so I think it was a necessary evil I think Gutenberg, the plugin being a thing now sort of, kind of pulls up.[00:24:30] From the core and like the general consumer standpoint, like seeing these sort of iterations and breaking changes and things like that, they've put it in the plugin, which, which is helpful because it allows people who are developing for WordPress to see what's coming to know how to address it. When it looked like a lot of people, when 5.9 launches, they'll be like, oh, w what's changed since 5.8.[00:24:50] Oh, my God, if you even knew, like so much has changed, but like, we'll be ready for it. Like frost will be 100% production ready when five, it is already, but you know, when 5.9 ships will be fully taken advantage of all the things. Cause we've been on the Gutenberg daily trail ever since then.[00:25:06] But speaking of Sarah McLaughlin, one of the 11 tweets I've favorited in my 15 years of Twitter was her response. She did ask me anything and I said, what's your favorite quote? And she quoted Gandhi's be the change you want to see in the world. And , obviously that that's sort of ubiquitous and we see it all the time.[00:25:21] But when it comes to WordPress and the direction, and this is sort of like Nick and my north star, which is, oh, this isn't working, we're frustrated with how this works. Well, you could do two things. You could piss about it and like, go on Twitter and talk about how bad it is. Or you can roll up your sleeves and figure out how to make it better.[00:25:36] And that is a lot of what we're doing. With developer relations at WP engine, we're teaming up with people on automatic side where other people's sides, rich Taylor is a good friend and we're trying to figure out how do we, universalize some things and just like really be that change.[00:25:50] And, we hope not only will that make WordPress better, maybe some of the people on the sidelines, these Monday quarterbacks as you call them, maybe it'll say, Hey, maybe there's something to like, Approach that they're taking, and maybe it's less about, dogging the platform that helped us win and helping it when, when, when for others and stuff like that.[00:26:09] Matt: Yeah. I can tell you that the one thing that Sort of afraid of is just the the pollution, I guess, of the block directory and what that potentially leads to in a customers. I say customer, I'm thinking I have agency on my mind, but thinking of you logging into somebody's website, who's not a WordPress aficionado.[00:26:28] And then. You have a thousand plugins installed. What's wrong with you? I can see that same thing happening with like the block directory, especially some of the things I've already starting to see where product companies are starting to inject their icon into like a, I don't know. I'll call the task bar.[00:26:46] I don't know what the official WordPress name is for that tray that sits above the editor where you can expand in different. And then, like I w installed a couple of themes the other day on one of my test sites. And it was just like, it looked like the bottom of my windows machine. Like all these icons, , oh, crazy.[00:27:01] We go again. , I don't want this. I can see some people doing like animated gifts now. And , oh, come on. , this is bad enough. Notifications already bad enough. Those types of things that you, you hope to maybe standard eyes across other product companies, is there like an official place you start to document this kind of thing to get everybody together or in a perfect world.[00:27:20] Is there a place you'd like to have for folks to rally around these types of things?[00:27:26] Brian: A good question. W we are guilty of that. Nick, Nick built a black pattern Explorer plugin. That adds a very I think we just recycled one of the core icon components that are part of WordPress. So again, we're not trying to do anything proprietary, so, we've created.[00:27:41] Block pattern, explore that very much is maybe maybe inspired what WordPress itself did in core. And we're looking to sort of expand on that and use that sort of in an experimental sense to help inform how things work, how it can be used, and then to take the things that we're building and push them upstream into WordPress, via pull requests.[00:28:01] And so, we are trying to, again, it's easy because for us, it's not a product that will. WP engine over any kind of metric. Like this was sort of brought in with the intent of, it's not gonna make any money, just use this to help go and grow and do all these things. And so, we've always back when Nathan and I Nathan Rice and I built Genesis, like we always sort of defaulted to WordPress core practices and standards and design and UX and all that kind of stuff.[00:28:28] And so. It's just an eight and eight at this point, for whatever we're working on to not be like a blinking Marquis across an admin notice thing. But I understand that it happens and why it happens. And, I think WordPress adding more capabilities to the core software, kind of. To be perfectly honest, that it knocks out the need for a lot of things.[00:28:49] Some of the black libraries that exist and things like that, like we're pressing now has that in core. So like, I'm hoping to, like, as we're press gets stronger with functionality that some of the needs to, to like to do what you said, won't be there. And I don't know if I answers the question, but are you happy to see the customized.[00:29:08] 1000%. I, I hated it from day one. I hated it from day one. I know we did some stuff with it and studio press. I was never a part of that. Cause I refused I've used it for a few things like custom CSS when I was in an emergency or, header, photo, script kind of stuff. But like I hated it. I never liked it.[00:29:27] I'm thrilled.[00:29:28] Matt: Yeah. . Amazing times, Ryan, what would help you and your role at WP engine call to action? Where can folks find you to connect with you to help the cause to join you at WP engine?[00:29:41] Anything or anywhere you want to point people[00:29:42] Brian: to a yes, the Twitter is probably the place that I'm most I'm most active and most available. At B Gardner, you could put that in the show notes, if you want. Tweet me, follow me, DME, whatever. Twitter is usually where we hang out. I'm on Instagram, that's more personal Starbucks shots and baseball things.[00:30:00] So that's less interesting to people in the space might not be tweeting about baseball. Yeah, no kidding. I'm on LinkedIn and I think it's B Gardner 27 and I was late to that party, so I didn't get the handle I wanted, but but Twitter is the place. I'm, periodically dunking around@briangardner.com actually working on a new design, kind of using that as a sandbox.[00:30:19] Yes. Oops. I'm doing it again was always sort of the tweet when you saw that tweet, I redesigned it. And so people have, I've trained people to never, ever think that there's going to be the same design as, as was there the last time, but that that's how products get built because I use my own site as a sandbox.[00:30:34] So, but yeah, Twitter is the best place. Obviously or for WP engine, we're always looking to build our team, not necessarily developer relations quite yet, but The Genesis team is hiring for an engineering person. And just whether it's support. I We see a number of people come up through the Genesis community who are now working there, lots of rock stars.[00:30:52] Like it's just a great place. So, if you're a WordPress person and you're looking for a job, hit me up on Twitter and I'll see if there's something that's Always hiring great people. I think David Vogel, Paul once said we don't hire something to the effect of, we don't hire qualified people. We've hired great people.[00:31:07] Like it kinda just works itself out that way. So, or we don't hire out. I can't remember what he said. I don't, I don't wanna mess up that quick, but it was really, really good. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. So quote here[00:31:17] Matt: pretty much. My report.com maryport.com/subscribe. Join the mailing list.[00:31:22] Number one way to stay connected. If you want to support independent WordPress content like. Buy me a coffee.com/maryport. Not only do you support the show, you can join as a member for $79 a year. Get access to the private discord and join our Merry band of WordPress Newsies, which we chat about. The WordPress news that goes out every Wednesday.[00:31:41] Five minutes is your favorite five minutes of WordPress or on the WP minute.com. Check it out. Join the. Get your name heard in the credits of the show. Talk about WordPress news. That's fun stuff. Thanks for hanging out today, Brian. I'll see everyone else in the next episode. ★ Support this podcast ★

Welcome back to the Matt Report, where we continue our special 2-part series with Josepha Haden Chomposy. If you haven't listened to the previous episode, I suggest you go back and learn what the WordPress Executive Director does on a day to to day basis. Today, we'll be exploring some meatier topics that come up in the community like contributor compensation and Five for the Future. If you didn't already know, Josepha leads a podcast of her own. We'll find out why Matt Mullenweg nudged her into that journey. Thanks to folks over at Malcare for supporting this episode of the Matt Report. If you want to support me, you can buy me a digital coffee or join the super-not-so-secret Discord group for $79/year at buymeacoffee.com/mattreport Episode transcription [00:00:00] Matt: my words, not yours. , the bottleneck at mid-level management. Is that because most, if not if, if, because most of them are volunteers.  [00:00:07] Josepha: I, in my copious research about this. Last I took any, any kind of canvas of it was that in-person events. So 2019 in my research about this, there are a number of things that do this for one, when you are a contributor and, and it's clear what you're supposed to be contributing to, you can submit your changes and then something else helps it get done. [00:00:34] Something else helps it get into core or to get into the handbook or whatever it is. It's really difficult to know how complicated that that middle area is. And so it's a little bit that the it's a bunch of volunteers and, and I hate asking them to do that kind of work because it's hard and in a lot of cases, The community of users is mean to you. [00:01:02] So like who does want to ask volunteers to do that? But it's also a little bit that there is some sticker shock. When you, when you get there, like you have shown up as a contributor, you have just kind of low access, low knowledge. You don't really know what's going on, but you're ready to give back to this thing that made your business possible. [00:01:19] And like the more that you learn things, or the more that you gain trust in the ecosystem, there is this moment. That's like a cliff where you're just like, okay, now we're going to talk about conflict resolution. And people are like, oh, no,  [00:01:36] Matt: yeah. Right.  [00:01:38] Josepha: like there's the step between between really active and valuable contribution and helping to keep WordPress moving is, is quite steep. [00:01:50] And so it's a lot better. [00:01:51] Matt: Some of the topics that I've heard people talk about myself, included on con contributors or, or folks who are not just contributing to core, but writing support docs, answering questions, helping with the learn team. So on and so forth is the the idea of some form of compensation. [00:02:08] And I'm curious if that ever gets talked about in any, any meetings ways to compensate. It doesn't always have to be, I guess, money but a trade a coupon, Right. [00:02:18] To a learning, a learning curve or something for thanks for your time. You get this and I'll say I'll preface this with yes. Contributors are taking the heat for things that they're just given their time. [00:02:32] Like, why are we yelling at them or the real extreme sides we've seen with folks who are on like the.org and plugin, repo and theme repo who actually get threats. And I say look at that level, we should actually have employees who are in the way of that kind of communication who are getting paid to deal with some of this stuff. [00:02:55] Not that anyone should be dealing with it and any of that stuff, but folks who are, Hey, we're [00:03:00] getting paid to do this, and we're going to shut this person off. Have rules, have channels, et cetera, et cetera, on the topic of compensating contributors. Has that ever come up? And is there anything we can  [00:03:11] Josepha: Oh, constantly. It comes up constantly. It's a good question.  [00:03:15] Matt: Get an NFT?  [00:03:18] Josepha: everyone gets a word press coin now. So there, there are two things I want to address here. And the first thing that I want to address is only semi-related, but it's short. There is a misconception about what I hope five for the future. [00:03:33] Company sponsored contributors are offering to the project in that it's like doing all of the things that just, I don't know, Google wants our automatic wants. And that's like, that's, that's not the bulk of the work that I want those contributors to be doing the bulk of the work that I want those contributors to be doing. [00:03:54] Is that kind of really not glamorous fully in service to self sponsored, volunteer kind of actions that we have to take to make sure that everything's moving forward. And so like, I agree that in the cases where we have people who are actively getting harassed or receiving threats, like that should not be a self sponsored, volunteer every single time. [00:04:18] That should be somebody who is sponsored in full by a company. And I, and I will believe that forever. And so there's that blanket statement. I know that there is a lot of, of mistrust of my many years running a call to increase the fight for the future program, but it's not a nefarious call for me. [00:04:38] It is to cover situations like that. Absolutely. Every single day. That's why I want that program to be bigger. So period,  [00:04:46] Matt: And nefarious in what like that fight for the future is just to give back to go upstream, to.  [00:04:52] Josepha: yeah, go upstream to automatic or to have an unnecessarily large voice for corporations because if you've got. 10,000 contributors who each can give one hour or 10,000 hours, which are in 40 hour chunks. [00:05:11] Like you can accomplish more in a 40 hour chunk of time for a lot of reasons for one, because like it's just been 10 years, since one person could see everything that was happening in WordPress all the time. And, and probably longer than that before, since you could just be like, I have an hour, so I'm going to go research the history of this, write a patch and submit it to be committed and get that done in an hour a month. [00:05:38] Like that's like, there is an imbalance in that. And so there is a healthy distrust of that, of that reality, which I understand, and there should be. And I never tell people to start. Asking me those questions, because it's important for everyone to feel like they can help [00:06:00] provide checks and balances for, for their leaders. [00:06:03] I think that's true. But anyway, I got really sidetracked on the question of compensation. Yeah, it comes up basically every year and has come up basically every year since I started doing this work. And, and I don't ever have a good solution and, and the primary solution that people offer to me every year, which is a fine solution at a specific scale is to just like, make a. [00:06:30] And give money to people and yeah, I appreciate it. That's a great suggestion at a specific scale, and that's not necessarily the scale that WordPress can function at at this point. Like there probably was a time when that would have worked for WordPress, just like it works for various other open source projects that, that handle supporting their contributors that way. [00:06:51] But if you look at WordPress like estimating and, and I don't have much in the way of data because we collect almost no data on anyone, but estimating based on the number of, of contributors that we list per release. And also the activity of contributors that I see on the make network of sites in slack, things like that. [00:07:13] We have probably 15 or 1600 active contributors over the course of the year.  [00:07:18] Matt: Yeah.  [00:07:20] Josepha: And that includes also the, the teams who are sponsored by companies. But that's a tiny fraction of them. If you've got 150 people who are sponsored by companies and 1600 active contributors over the course of the year, like, yeah, that's a teensy teensy group and there is not a good way to manage a program like that at a global scale while also paying attention to all of the rules and regulations that exist in the world. [00:07:48] Like we would need to have a WordPress HR department, which we don't have  [00:07:53] Matt: Right.  [00:07:54] Josepha: is no one is here that way. And so like, yeah, it. It's a good idea. I want it, I want more companies to, to sponsor more people and I don't have a sustainable way to do that for WordPress as a project from a WordPress back to entity. [00:08:16] Matt: Yeah.  [00:08:16] Josepha: That's a good answer, but it is the true answer. [00:08:18] Matt: listen, so as more and more. That I talk to more people outside of like the WordPress entrepreneurship bubble. There are folks that, like you said, let's just use the number 1600. Not everyone wants money. [00:08:32] Number one, like that's not what they're there for. Two you probably couldn't pay them enough anyway. It'd just be like a nice little thing and you can, oh, here's a Starbucks card. Great. I don't even have Starbucks in my country,  [00:08:43] Josepha: Right, [00:08:44] Matt: right. [00:08:44] Okay, great. So there's that, that thing. And like not it's difficult. [00:08:48] I get it. I, I also look at.org as as the repo anyway, as a way that, that. a ton of money. If it were a true marketplace, like a ton of money, [00:09:00] because there's billions of dollars or a least a billions, a billion of dollars that, that actually funnels through that by, by upgrades and upsells. [00:09:09] So if there was a 20, 30% tax the foundation could have enough money to employ people is one way is, is how I has as I, how I would approach it. But to maybe there's something there where folks can be recognized, which I, I, again, I also know is very difficult. And I don't want to simplify it as like, Hey, there's a leaderboard, but if folks could get recognized for their efforts in some kind of way, then we'd all see. Or have the ability to shine spotlight on people who are contributing their time that don't want to be paid, but they're like, Hey, I wrote 15 documents this month. I'm winning the document leadership, round or whatever, something like that, that shines light. And like I said, it doesn't have to be here's $5 for your contribution. [00:09:51] It could be you get a Skillshare as the first thing that comes to my head. Like you get a free Skillshare account, Matt knows the CEO and hooks up, a hundred free accounts for people, right. And they get to learn and educate and make improve themselves.  [00:10:04] Josepha: yeah. [00:10:04] Matt: So, again, I also know it's, it's insanely difficult to, to rally that together, wrangle  [00:10:09] Josepha: worth, when I'm going to tell, I'm gonna tell all y'all listeners, cause like, I'm sure you have hundreds of thousands of people. So when the fight for the future program, 5,000 episodes, that's really good. When the five for the future program, Was was being architected. So like Andrea Middleton and her team were the primary drivers in that one of the, so they did a bunch of research by going out and looking at how other open source CMS is like ours. [00:10:40] We're not necessarily incentivizing their contributors. But certainly how they were recognizing them if there was an incentive involved what sort of alternative economies were available in there and how it compared to WordPress. And one of the suggestions that that team did bring forward at the time was like, what if we had a leaderboard where every month we could just like snapshot the top 10 contributors on the thing. [00:11:07] And. I don't recall why we didn't move forward with that at the time. And I will have to see if I can go back through my thousands of pages of notes from, from working with WordPress and see if I left myself a breadcrumb anywhere. But that was at the end of the day, something that, that was decided against. [00:11:30] I know that Drupal does that and at their Drupal con they're US-based Drupal con I think every year when they have the DreeZ note, they put up the leaderboard for who was the best this year. And, and we, we decided to go against it. I think it's a little bit, because like, there's this feeling of excessive. [00:11:50] Competition there that we don't necessarily, we don't want to instill in the community. Like we want co-op petition where we make [00:12:00] each other better.  [00:12:00] Matt: Right, right.  [00:12:02] Josepha: but not necessarily people being like I have a thousand hours to give to WordPress. I'm just going to make a bunch of tiny polar requests and get to the top of the leaderboard. [00:12:10] Like, I don't know how that would work, but yeah.  [00:12:13] Matt: Not, not easy for sure. Wrapping up I want to talk quickly about the podcast that you do. How do you fit that into your crazy schedule? What do you record fortnightly? Is it,  [00:12:22] Josepha: Yes. Yeah. [00:12:24] Matt: Is that one of your initiatives? Was that something that somebody was like, Hey, you should really do a podcast. [00:12:28] And you're like, eh, okay. I guess I'll try it. Is that something you've always wanted to do for, for the WordPress,  [00:12:32] Josepha: I've never wanted to be a broadcaster. It seems so hard. [00:12:37] Matt: One day, Matt was like, come on, just do this podcast. And you're like, you do a podcast. He does. It's called distributed. I can't wait to be on it.  [00:12:44] Josepha: He does. Yeah, he actually is the one who suggested that it would be useful. And a good thing for me to do for the project. And he was right. But at the time I was like, oh no, I don't want anyone to see me. And I don't want them to be looking at my work. And, and like knowing how hard it is. I don't want them to know how hard this is, which is not fair. [00:13:03] Like people should know how difficult it is to manage a project of this size because it is incredibly difficult. But yeah, I just, I don't, I, I worried a lot at the start that it was going to look like this vehicle for me to use WordPress's success to my advantage. And, and I just struggled so much with that. [00:13:25] It took  [00:13:25] Matt: Why not everyone else does it.  [00:13:26] Josepha: Not everybody else. Wouldn't be holding themselves to their conflict of interest, internal policy that I hold for myself.  [00:13:33] Matt: True.  [00:13:33] Josepha: But yeah, it actually took me like six weeks to really commit to doing this. Like he suggested it, he, he made an excellent argument for why I should, and I was like, okay, but I'm going to make it, you and me. [00:13:47] And he's been on it with me twice, but he was like, sure, make it, you and me just slowly boiling this frog of not wanting to do podcasts, but to answer your question of how I get it all done. Obviously it's quite short, but. I sit down at the start of the year and map out the most likely major conversations that are happening in those moments across the year and do light outlines and also make notes for myself at the start of the year of the events and, and likely incidents that I should probably look to to inform that particular podcast. [00:14:23] And then I take about 30 minutes, write it down and record it in about 17 minutes. So, yeah.  [00:14:31] Matt: Cool. Yeah. [00:14:32] it's great. I, I tune in as I, as as I do. And as I mentioned before, I've, I've clipped, you have quoted you a on the WP minute and I appreciate the fact that you do it. I've said it for, oh, I say, I say a lot of people have said it that they're, that they're should have, there should be another vehicle for communication coming out of.org. [00:14:50] Because your average user, the thousands of people I've helped get online before with WordPress are not logging into slack. They're certainly not going to make that wordpress.org. [00:15:00] Good luck getting them on a newsletter. Maybe they'll listen to a podcast. Where are you going to do all the things to reach, all, all the people,  [00:15:08] Josepha: Yeah. I used to be in marketing, as I mentioned before I got here. And, and one of the guidelines at the time was that, like, you have to say things to people seven, seven different ways or seven different times, depending on who you're talking to before.  [00:15:28] Matt: so well.  [00:15:28] Josepha: Exactly before, like they're ready to give it any attention and, and WordPress. [00:15:36] Has always really thrived on, on word of mouth marketing, but you don't have any opportunity to like put forward your best foot as a product when you're just like, Hey, tell your friends what you love the most about us. And it could not possibly be 100% of the time. The thing that I love the most about WordPress, cause you're a different person. [00:15:59] Like I, there are many things that I think are the best parts of WordPress that probably half our users don't even know exist.  [00:16:07] Matt: Yup.  [00:16:08] Josepha: And so like, I don't want to say that, that maybe I just shouldn't say it if I don't wanna say it. I think that WordPress as, as an entity, as a community of contributors and also users. [00:16:23] They're they're owed a bit more dignity than to have people say, like WordPress is my least favorite thing, but users wanted, I guess, so I guess I have to use this stupid software. Like there's so much more dignity to what these contributors are enabling in the world. Then, then those people that benefit from their time are willing to comment on either because they don't know that these 1600 strangers made sure that we patched the latest vulnerability or built the future of content management or whatever it is. [00:16:56] Like they maybe don't know. But even when they do know it's the same sort of problem with helping people move toward a different type of leadership in an open source project. Like you think, you know what it is all the way until you move the curtain aside. And then you're like, oh no close that up. [00:17:13] It's not what I bought it was. And then it's, it is. Really, it's a really big problem, I think that can be solved by having more vehicles for WordPress to say who it is and who it wants to be. I think this is all in my opinion. Anyone can have a different opinion today. But yeah, I think it's, I think it's more important for the world to know what these great group of volunteers and contributors are doing. [00:17:42] Then, then for me to be an important person of WordPress. And so like around the whole, like, did you always want to do a podcast? No. Did I do it anyway? Yes. Why did I do it? Because I know that these people deserve more than just a stack exchange, [00:18:00] a survey that says we suck every two years or whatever it is. [00:18:04] I don't mean to call anyone out. [00:18:05] Matt: Yeah. [00:18:05] You've got to, you need to write because a Wix is going to hire a Kevin Hart to do a commercial at the super and Squarespace is going to pay every YouTube personality to advertise Squarespace. So there has to be they, you just have to, you just have to kind of make that effort to be everywhere and everything.  [00:18:24] Josepha: And from a final philosophical thought on it, like the freedoms of open source and of WordPress and the open web. Are are there within everyone's rights. And it doesn't matter whether people know that or recognize it. They still deserve to have that. And the rights of anything, the rights of any one person that they should have that are inalienable to them, only matter as much as they can apply them. [00:18:52] And so like, just because WordPress believes that there is a bill of rights that exists for the open web and for anyone who wants to use our software and are willing to fight about it only is as important as, as getting people to come to WordPress, for whatever reasons they have. Like, they don't care about the overall philosophy of open source and they don't have to in order to be able to take those rights that exist and apply them in their own lives. [00:19:25] And I think that that's why we have to do that. [00:19:28] Matt: A hundred percent, a hundred percent last question of the interview comes from it comes from the WP minute, comes from a producer over the WP minute, Michelle for chef, actually what, what also happens over at the WP minute is we syndicate content from around the community and actually have coming up next week. [00:19:46] How a Shaya talking about the learn.wordpress.org, how to get involved, how to contribute and she can, as she contributes to that that theme a one minute clip once a month. It's pretty awesome. Okay. Michelle. [00:19:59] for shit asks, would you consider starting a taskforce for engaging a younger demographic and using, and contributing to words?  [00:20:10] Josepha: I have tried test runs of that in the past. Yes, I would. [00:20:15] Matt: He started, he started a Fortnite league and you say, Hey, jump in with me. Have you heard of this thing called WordPress? Do you have a blog blog? I've  [00:20:24] Josepha: What is that? So yes, I, I want that actually aging, aging out and age-ism in general was one of the first questions that I had when I came to automatic in 2015. Like, do we have anything on our radar about that? Do we have any concerns? Is there a reason to be concerned? And I was told at the time that there wasn't, and, and it may be true that there's not. [00:20:47] But I, despite being told there wasn't I have done two or three pilot programs, one directed by somebody else. And one that I [00:21:00] directed where we got into middle schools one in a high school, one just kind of like a community space and then one in a college where we. People from, from the automatics.org, not.org open-source group go out and like teach these kids and teach these students about what it is to be a good citizen of the web. [00:21:23] And also how WordPress can help them build skills for the future. And also how contributing can help them to learn things passively or learn things actively, depending on what's happening to kind of build the 21st century skills that everyone needs now in order to be an excellent employee. But certainly in the current context, things that, that are wildly important for people who are learning to work remotely for the first time they did not necessarily turn out the way that I, that I wanted. [00:21:54] Like I didn't meet any of those metrics in the, I. I was directed to run about four of them. And then I directed someone else to lead the fifth one. None of my metrics landed where I wanted them to. And so I didn't, I didn't feel like I could continue and say like, okay, let's give it a second try. Cause I didn't necessarily have the skillset to make that more fruitful in those, in those environments. [00:22:18] The collegiate one actually went really very well but was so much time from the person who was managing it on our side, that it basically was a second job. And like we really just needed them to be able to do their job of working on WordPress. And so yes, I've entertained it over the years. I have tried a few different configurations. [00:22:39] We as a group have tried a few different configurations and nothing that I feel really. Made the impact that I wanted it to make. That doesn't mean that it's not worth trying again in the future. But I, I don't know that I, I could confidently say that I would know what that needs to look like, especially right now with a lot of distance learning happening. [00:23:00] So did that answer it? [00:23:02] Matt: maybe some blue hats to say, like make blogging. Great. Again, that's a terrible idea. [00:23:06] Match. Jesus. Why would, why would we do that? Although, what you could do is. you could get Matt to say, Hey, maybe we introduce Gutenberg to tumbler and maybe make Tumblr more of a social thing for fun in young kids and be like, oh, what's this word? [00:23:18] What's this Gutenberg thing, powering tumbler. And maybe that's the gateway drug, huh? Tumbler. Oh,  [00:23:25] Josepha: I went on record somewhere that I have never been able to find again, saying that tumbler was the last bastion of the indie web and, and we should be good stewards of the platform. I can't remember where I said that or why. [00:23:39] Matt: listening to a three doors down album while you, while you said that Joe Joseph, a Hayden chump, Posey Joseph, thanks for hanging out today and talking about what you do as an executive director. Where else can folks go to say.  [00:23:54] Josepha: They can find me on Twitter at Joseph Hayden. You can also find me over on my blog where I talk [00:24:00] mostly about leadership stuff often in the context of WordPress, but general leadership knowledge to know@josepha.blog. And of course in slack where I have a screen name, John to Boone, which is very difficult. [00:24:13] But if you look for Joseph you can probably find me I'm waving from a presidential thingy. What are these podium? Yeah.  [00:24:20] Matt: And everybody else, Matt report.com mat report.com/subscribe. Shout out to Jeff. Who also asked the same question we were talking about paying contributors. That was his question from the w P minutes go to the WP minute.com/subscribe. Listen to that five minute weekly WordPress news, and don't forget to support WordPress news over@buymeacoffee.com slash my report. [00:24:41] Thanks everybody for listening. We'll see you in the next episode. ★ Support this podcast ★

This is a longer show for a reason. We begin before Joey shows up by expressing some emotional stress and turmoil that happened to us this past week from fires to blizzards, to another case of Fawn experiencing some more racism, yet another mass shooting in Colorado, to all the other stuff. We talk about how important it is to clear the air before we meet our friends, before a ceremonial time together. So we do this before Joey shows up. When Joey shows up, we discuss the importance of ceremony, the importance of learning and respecting each other's cultures and history, Star Wars, why pronunciation is such a trigger, and then we continue talking as we make, bake, and break the Gata Bread. Just press pause when you need to and come back and make sure you hear all of this episode (where you'll learn to make the most amazing ancient dessert) and make sure you are present for the last 30 minutes as we come to a very special understanding about get-togethers in life. Some Links: If you would like to support our show by buying us a coffee:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/friendlyspace To reach Joey: Kryptontoalderaan@gmail.com. https://www.instagram.com/kryptontoalderaan/ https://linktr.ee/kryptontoalderaan https://twitter.com/kryptonalderaan To reach Andrew Janjigian Pictures and recipe for Gata – Thank you, Andrew Janjigianhttps://www.seriouseats.com/gata-5185123 Preshow therapy Transcript [00:00:00] Fawn: Our sweet friend, Joey is coming here soon in like a few minutes. And one of the things we always talk about is the art of being a good host. I feel like I needed to talk with you all before Joey comes. So before a friend comes, have you ever experienced this? When you've had a hard time with something, it could be anything, but you're having a hard time meaning that maybe you're not in the best mood and that you need to process something first before you open up the doors and go, hi. Yay. Our friend is here. Right. [00:00:38] Matt: So no, and I get that, but you know, being raised in a more Germanic household, we just compartmentalize, [00:00:44] Fawn: well, I don't. And before, before sweet Joey comes, I need to express, I need to communicate what's been bothering me the past few days. Yesterday was Elle's birthday. Right? The day before that I had to take her for immunizations. I got into a really bad mood. Like I wasn't expressing it to anyone, but it was a seed. Something was bothering me and it was starting to build. Every time I experienced any form of microaggression or macro aggression. It takes me by surprise because every time I process it, I'm like, okay, that's done. I'm not going to continue with this baggage. I'm going to clear it and I'm moving on as if that was just a one-time occurrence.

About MattMatt is an AWS DevTools Hero, Serverless Architect, Author and conference speaker. He is focused on creating the right environment for empowered teams to rapidly deliver business value in a well-architected, sustainable and serverless-first way.You can usually find him sharing reusable, well architected, serverless patterns over at cdkpatterns.com or behind the scenes bringing CDK Day to life.Links: AWS CDK Patterns: https://cdkpatterns.com The CDK Book: https://thecdkbook.com CDK Day: https://www.cdkday.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: It seems like there is a new security breach every day. Are you confident that an old SSH key, or a shared admin account, isn't going to come back and bite you? If not, check out Teleport. Teleport is the easiest, most secure way to access all of your infrastructure. The open source Teleport Access Plane consolidates everything you need for secure access to your Linux and Windows servers—and I assure you there is no third option there. Kubernetes clusters, databases, and internal applications like AWS Management Console, Yankins, GitLab, Grafana, Jupyter Notebooks, and more. Teleport's unique approach is not only more secure, it also improves developer productivity. To learn more visit: goteleport.com. And not, that is not me telling you to go away, it is: goteleport.com.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Rising Cloud, which I hadn't heard of before, but they're doing something vaguely interesting here. They are using AI, which is usually where my eyes glaze over and I lose attention, but they're using it to help developers be more efficient by reducing repetitive tasks. So, the idea being that you can run stateless things without having to worry about scaling, placement, et cetera, and the rest. They claim significant cost savings, and they're able to wind up taking what you're running as it is in AWS with no changes, and run it inside of their data centers that span multiple regions. I'm somewhat skeptical, but their customers seem to really like them, so that's one of those areas where I really have a hard time being too snarky about it because when you solve a customer's problem and they get out there in public and say, “We're solving a problem,” it's very hard to snark about that. Multus Medical, Construx.ai and Stax have seen significant results by using them. And it's worth exploring. So, if you're looking for a smarter, faster, cheaper alternative to EC2, Lambda, or batch, consider checking them out. Visit risingcloud.com/benefits. That's risingcloud.com/benefits, and be sure to tell them that I said you because watching people wince when you mention my name is one of the guilty pleasures of listening to this podcast.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined today by Matt Coulter, who is a Technical Architect at Liberty Mutual. You may have had the privilege of seeing him on the keynote stage at re:Invent last year—in Las Vegas or remotely—that last year of course being 2021. But if you make better choices than the two of us did, and found yourself not there, take the chance to go and watch that keynote. It's really worth seeing.Matt, first, thank you for joining me. I'm sorry, I don't have 20,000 people here in the audience to clap this time. They're here, but they're all remote as opposed to sitting in the room behind me because you know, social distancing.Matt: And this left earphone, I just have some applause going, just permanently, just to keep me going. [laugh].Corey: That's sort of my own internal laugh track going on. It's basically whatever I say is hilarious, to that. So yeah, doesn't really matter what I say, how I say it, my jokes are all for me. It's fine. So, what was it like being on stage in front of that many people? It's always been a wild experience to watch and for folks who haven't spent time on the speaking circuit, I don't think that there's any real conception of what that's like. Is this like giving a talk at work, where I just walk on stage randomly, whatever I happened to be wearing? And, oh, here's a microphone, I'm going to say words. What is the process there?Matt: It's completely different. For context for everyone, before the pandemic, I would have pretty regularly talked in front of, I don't know, maybe one, two hundred people in Liberty, in Belfast. So, I used to be able to just, sort of, walk in front of them, and lean against the pillar, and use my clicker, and click through, but the process for actually presenting something as big as a keynote and re:Invent is so different. For starters, you think that when you walk onto the stage, you'll actually be able to see the audience, but the way the lights are set up, you can pretty much see about one row of people, and they're not the front row, so anybody I knew, I couldn't actually see.And yeah, you can only see, sort of like, the from the void, and then you have your screens, so you've six sets of screens that tell you your notes as well as what slides you're on, you know, so you can pivot. But other than that, I mean, it feels like you're just talking to yourself outside of whenever people, thankfully, applause. It's such a long process to get there.Corey: I've always said that there are a few different transition stages as the audience size increases, but for me, the final stage is more or less anything above 750 people. Because as you say, you aren't able to see that many beyond that point, and it doesn't really change anything meaningfully. The most common example that you see in the wild is jokes that work super well with a small group of people fall completely flat to large audiences. It's why so much corporate numerous cheesy because yeah, everyone in the rehearsals is sitting there laughing and the joke kills, but now you've got 5000 people sitting in a room and that joke just sounds strained and forced because there's no longer a conversation, and no one has the shared context that—the humor has to change. So, in some cases when you're telling a story about what you're going to say on stage, during a rehearsal, they're going to say, “Well, that joke sounds really corny and lame.” It's, “Yeah, wait until you see it in front of an audience. It will land very differently.” And I'm usually right on that.I would also advise, you know, doing what you do and having something important and useful to say, as opposed to just going up there to tell jokes the whole time. I wanted to talk about that because you talked about how you're using various CDK and other serverless style patterns in your work at Liberty Mutual.Matt: Yeah. So, we've been using CDK pretty extensively since it was, sort of, Q3 2019. At that point, it was new. Like, it had just gone GA at the time, just came out of dev preview. And we've been using CDK from the perspective of we want to be building serverless-first, well-architected apps, and ideally we want to be building them on AWS.Now, the thing is, we have 5000 people in our IT organization, so there's sort of a couple of ways you can take to try and get those people onto the cloud: You can either go the route of being, like, there is one true path to architecture, this is our architecture and everything you want to build can fit into that square box; or you can go the other approach and try and have the golden path where you say this is the paved road that is really easy to do, but if you want to differentiate from that route, that's okay. But what you need to do is feed back into the golden path if that works. Then everybody can improve. And that's where we've started been using CDK. So, what you heard me talk about was the software accelerator, and it's sort of a different approach.It's where anybody can build a pattern and then share it so that everybody else can rapidly, you know, just reuse it. And what that means is effectively you can, instead of having to have hundreds of people on a central team, you can actually just crowdsource, and sort of decentralize the function. And if things are good, then a small team can actually come in and audit them, so to speak, and check that it's well-architected, and doesn't have flaws, and drive things that way.Corey: I have to confess that I view the CDK as sort of a third stage automation approach, and it's one that I haven't done much work with myself. The first stage is clicking around in the console; the second is using CloudFormation or Terraform; the third stage is what we're talking about here is CDK or Pulumi, or something like that. And then you ascend to the final fourth stage, which is what I use, which is clicking around in the AWS console, but then you lie to people about it. ClickOps is poised to take over the world. But that's okay. You haven't gotten that far yet. Instead, you're on the CDK side. What advantages does CDK offer that effectively CloudFormation or something like it doesn't?Matt: So, first off, for ClickOps in Liberty, we actually have the AWS console as read-only in all of our accounts, except for sandbox. So, you can ClickOps in sandbox to learn, but if you want to do something real, unfortunately, it's going to fail you. So.—Corey: I love that pattern. I think I might steal that.Matt: [laugh]. So, originally, we went heavy on CloudFormation, which is why CDK worked well for us. And because we've actually—it's been a long journey. I mean, we've been deploying—2014, I think it was, we first started deploying to AWS, and we've used everything from Terraform, to you name it. We've built our own tools, believe it or not, that are basically CDK.And the thing about CloudFormation is, it's brilliant, but it's also incredibly verbose and long because you need to specify absolutely everything that you want to deploy, and every piece of configuration. And that's fine if you're just deploying a side project, but if you're in an enterprise that has responsibilities to protect user data, and you can't just deploy anything, they end up thousands and thousands and thousands of lines long. And then we have amazing guardrails, so if you tried to deploy a CloudFormation template with a flaw in it, we can either just fix it, or reject the deploy. But CloudFormation is not known to be the fastest to deploy, so you end up in this developer cycle, where you build this template by hand, and then it goes through that CloudFormation deploy, and then you get the failure message that it didn't deploy because of some compliance thing, and developers just got frustrated, and were like, sod this. [laugh].I'm not deploying to AWS. Back the on-prem. And that's where CDK was a bit different because it allowed us to actually build abstractions with all of our guardrails baked in, so that it just looked like a standard class, for developers, like, developers already know Java, Python, TypeScript, the languages off CDK, and so we were able to just make it easy by saying, “You want API Gateway? There's an API Gateway class. You want, I don't know, an EC2 instance? There you go.” And that way, developers could focus on the thing they wanted, instead of all of the compliance stuff that they needed to care about every time they wanted to deploy.Corey: Personally, I keep lobbying AWS to add my preferred language, which is crappy shell scripting, but for some reason they haven't really been quick to add that one in. The thing that I think surprises me, on some level—though, perhaps it shouldn't—is not just the adoption of serverless that you're driving at Liberty Mutual, but the way that you're interacting with that feels very futuristic, for lack of a better term. And please don't think that I'm in any way describing this in a way that's designed to be insulting, but I do a bunch of serverless nonsense on Twitter for Pets. That's not an exaggeration. twitterforpets.com has a bunch of serverless stuff behind it because you know, I have personality defects.But no one cares about that static site that's been a slide dump a couple of times for me, and a running joke. You're at Liberty Mutual; you're an insurance company. When people wind up talking about big enterprise institutions, you're sort of a shorthand example of exactly what they're talking about. It's easy to contextualize or think of that as being very risk averse—for obvious reasons; you are an insurance company—as well as wanting to move relatively slowly with respect to technological advancement because mistakes are going to have drastic consequences to all of your customers, people's lives, et cetera, as opposed to tweets or—barks—not showing up appropriately at the right time. How did you get to the, I guess, advanced architectural philosophy that you clearly have been embracing as a company, while having to be respectful of the risk inherent that comes with change, especially in large, complex environments?Matt: Yeah, it's funny because so for everyone, we were talking before this recording started about, I've been with Liberty since 2011. So, I've seen a lot of change in the length of time I've been here. And I've built everything from IBM applications right the way through to the modern serverless apps. But the interesting thing is, the journey to where we are today definitely started eight or nine years ago, at a minimum because there was something identified in the leadership that they said, “Listen, we're all about our customers. And that means we don't want to be wasting millions of dollars, and thousands of hours, and big trains of people to build software that does stuff. We want to focus on why are we building a piece of software, and how quickly can we get there? If you focus on those two things you're doing all right.”And that's why starting from the early days, we focused on things like, okay, everything needs to go through CI/CD pipelines. You need to have your infrastructure as code. And even if you're deploying on-prem, you're still going to be using the same standards that we use to deploy to AWS today. So, we had years and years and years of just baking good development practices into the company. And then whenever we started to move to AWS, the question became, do we want to just deploy the same thing or do we want to take full advantage of what the cloud has to offer? And I think because we were primed and because the leadership had the right direction, you know, we were just sitting there ready to say, “Okay, serverless seems like a way we can rapidly help our customers.” And that's what we've done.Corey: A lot of the arguments against serverless—and let's be clear, they rhyme with the previous arguments against cloud that lots of people used to make; including me, let's be clear here. I'm usually wrong when I try to predict the future. “Well, you're putting your availability in someone else's hands,” was the argument about cloud. Yeah, it turns out the clouds are better at keeping things up than we are as individual companies.Then with serverless, it's the, “Well, if they're handling all that stuff for you on their side, when they're down, you're down. That's an unacceptable business risk, so we're going to be cloud-agnostic and multi-cloud, and that means everything we build serverlessly needs to work in multiple environments, including in our on-prem environment.” And from the way that we're talking about servers and things that you're building, I don't believe that is technically possible, unless some of the stuff you're building is ridiculous. How did you come to accept that risk organizationally?Matt: These are the conversations that we're all having. Sort of, I'd say once a week, we all have a multi-cloud discussion—and I really liked the article you wrote, it was maybe last year, maybe the year before—but multi-cloud to me is about taking the best capabilities that are out there and bringing them together. So, you know, like, Azure [ID 00:12:47] or whatever, things from the other clouds that they're good at, and using those rather than thinking, “Can I build a workload that I can simultaneously pay all of the price to run across all of the clouds, all of the time, so that if one's down, theoretically, I might have an outage?” So, the way we've looked at it is we embraced really early the well-architected framework from AWS. And it talks about things like you need to have multi-region availability, you need to have your backups in place, you need to have things like circuit breakers in place for if third-party goes down, and we've just tried to build really resilient architectures as best as we can on AWS. And do you know what I think, if [laugh] it AWS is not—I know at re:Invent, there it went down extraordinarily often compared to normal, but in general—Corey: We were all tired of re:Invent; their us-east-1 was feeling the exact same way.Matt: Yeah, so that's—it deserved a break. But, like, if somebody can't buy insurance for an hour, once a year, [laugh] I think we're okay with it versus spending millions to protect that one hour.Corey: And people make assumptions based on this where, okay, we had this problem with us-east-1 that froze things like the global Route 53 control planes; you couldn't change DNS for seven hours. And I highlighted that as, yeah, this is a problem, and it's something to severely consider, but I will bet you anything you'd care to name that there is an incredibly motivated team at AWS, actively fixing that as we speak. And by—I don't know how long it takes to untangle all of those dependencies, but I promise they're going to be untangled in relatively short order versus running data centers myself, when I discover a key underlying dependency I didn't realize was there, well, we need to break that. That's never going to happen because we're trying to do things as a company, and it's just not the most important thing for us as a going concern. With AWS, their durability and reliability is the most important thing, arguably compared to security.Would you rather be down or insecure? I feel like they pick down—I would hope in most cases they would pick down—but they don't want to do either one. That is something they are drastically incentivized to fix. And I'm never going to be able to fix things like that and I don't imagine that you folks would be able to either.Matt: Yeah, so, two things. The first thing is the important stuff, like, for us, that's claims. We want to make sure at any point in time, if you need to make a claim you can because that is why we're here. And we can do that with people whether or not the machines are up or down. So, that's why, like, you always have a process—a manual process—that the business can operate, irrespective of whether the cloud is still working.And that's why we're able to say if you can't buy insurance in that hour, it's okay. But the other thing is, we did used to have a lot of data centers, and I have to say, the people who ran those were amazing—I think half the staff now work for AWS—but there was this story that I heard where there was an app that used to go down at the same time every day, and nobody could work out why. And it was because someone was coming in to clean the room at that time, and they unplugged the server to plug in a vacuum, and then we're cleaning the room, and then plugging it back in again. And that's the kind of thing that just happens when you manage people, and you manage a building, and manage a premises. Whereas if you've heard that happened that AWS, I mean, that would be front page news.Corey: Oh, it absolutely would. There's also—as you say, if it's the sales function, if people aren't able to buy insurance for an hour, when us-east-1 went down, the headlines were all screaming about AWS taking an outage, and some of the more notable customers were listed as examples of this, but the story was that, “AWS has massive outage,” not, “Your particular company is bad at technology.” There's sort of a reputational risk mitigation by going with one of these centralized things. And again, as you're alluding to, what you're doing is not life-critical as far as the sales process and getting people to sign up. If an outage meant that suddenly a bunch of customers were no longer insured, that's a very different problem. But that's not your failure mode.Matt: Exactly. And that's where, like, you got to look at what your business is, and what you're specifically doing, but for 99.99999% of businesses out there, I'm pretty sure you can be down for the tiny window that AWS is down per year, and it will be okay, as long as you plan for it.Corey: So, one thing that really surprised me about the entirety of what you've done at Liberty Mutual is that you're a big enterprise company, and you can take a look at any enterprise company, and say that they have dueling mottos, which is, “I am not going to comment on that,” or, “That's not funny.” Like, the safe mode for any large concern is to say nothing at all. But a lot of folks—not just you—at Liberty have been extremely vocal about the work that you're doing, how you view these things, and I almost want to call it advocacy or evangelism for the CDK. I'm slightly embarrassed to admit that for a little while there, I thought you were an AWS employee in their DevRel program because you were such an advocate in such strong ways for the CDK itself.And that is not something I expected. Usually you see the most vocal folks working in environments that, let's be honest, tend to play a little bit fast and loose with things like formal corporate communications. Liberty doesn't and yet, there you folks are telling these great stories. Was that hard to win over as a culture, or am I just misunderstanding how corporate life is these days?Matt: No, I mean, so it was different, right? There was a point in time where, I think, we all just sort of decided that—I mean, we're really good at what we do from an engineering perspective, and we wanted to make sure that, given the messaging we were given, those 5000 teck employees in Liberty Mutual, if you consider the difference in broadcasting to 5000 versus going external, it may sound like there's millions, billions of people in the world, but in reality, the difference in messaging is not that much. So, to me what I thought, like, whenever I started anyway—it's not, like, we had a meeting and all decided at the same time—but whenever I started, it was a case of, instead of me just posting on all the internal channels—because I've been doing this for years—it's just at that moment, I thought, I could just start saying these things externally and still bring them internally because all you've done is widened the audience; you haven't actually made it shallower. And that meant that whenever I was having the internal conversations, nothing actually changed except for it meant external people, like all their Heroes—like Jeremy Daly—could comment on these things, and then I could bring that in internally. So, it almost helped the reverse takeover of the enterprise to change the culture because I didn't change that much except for change the audience of who I was talking to.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: One thing that you've done that I want to say is admirable, and I stumbled across it when I was doing some work myself over the break, and only right before this recording did I discover that it was you is the cdkpatterns.com website. Specifically what I love about it is that it publishes a bunch of different patterns of ways to do things. This deviates from a lot of tutorials on, “Here's how to build this one very specific thing,” and instead talks about, “Here's the architecture design; here's what the baseline pattern for that looks like.” It's more than a template, but less than a, “Oh, this is a messaging app for dogs and I'm trying to build a messaging app for cats.” It's very generalized, but very direct, and I really, really like that model of demo.Matt: Thank you. So, watching some of your Twitter threads where you experiment with new—Corey: Uh oh. People read those. That's a problem.Matt: I know. So, whatever you experiment with a new piece of AWS to you, I've always wondered what it would be like to be your enabling architect. Because technically, my job in Liberty is, I meant to try and stay ahead of everybody and try and ease the on-ramp to these things. So, if I was your enabling architect, I would be looking at it going, “I should really have a pattern for this.” So that whenever you want to pick up that new service the patterns in cdkpatterns.com, there's 24, 25 of them right there, but internally, there's way more than dozens now.The goal is, the pattern is the least amount to code for you to learn a concept. And then that way, you can not only see how something works, but you can maybe pick up one of the pieces of the well-architected framework while you're there: All of it's unit tested, all of it is proper, you know, like, commented code. The idea is to not be crap, but not be gold-plated either. I'm currently in the process of upgrading that all to V2 as well. So, that [unintelligible 00:21:32].Corey: You mentioned a phrase just now: “Enabling architect.” I have to say this one that has not crossed my desk before. Is that an internal term you use? Is that an enterprise concept I've somehow managed to avoid? Is that an AWS job role? What is that?Matt: I've just started saying [laugh] it's my job over the past couple of years. That—I don't know, patent pending? But the idea to me is—Corey: No, it's evocative. I love the term, I'd love to learn more.Matt: Yeah, because you can sort of take two approaches to your architecture: You can take the traditional approach, which is the ‘house of no' almost, where it's like, “This is the architecture. How dare you want to deviate. This is what we have decided. If you want to change it, here's the Architecture Council and go through enterprise architecture as people imagine it.” But as people might work out quite quickly, whenever they meet me, the whole, like, long conversational meetings are not for me. What I want to do is teach engineers how to help themselves, so that's why I see myself as enabling.And what I've been doing is using techniques like Wardley Mapping, which is where you can go out and you can actually take all the components of people's architecture and you can draw them on a map for—it's a map of how close they are to the customer, as well as how cutting edge the tech is, or how aligned to our strategic direction it is. So, you can actually map out all of the teams, and—there's 160, 170 engineers in Belfast and Dublin, and I can actually go in and say, “Oh, that piece of your architecture would be better if it was evolved to this. Well, I have a pattern for that,” or, “I don't have a pattern for that, but you know what? I'll build one and let's talk about it next week.” And that's always trying to be ahead, instead of people coming to me and I have to say no.Corey: AWS Proton was designed to do something vaguely similar, where you could set out architectural patterns of—like, the two examples that they gave—I don't know if it's in general availability yet or still in public preview, but the ones that they gave were to build a REST API with Lambda, and building something-or-other with Fargate. And the idea was that you could basically fork those, or publish them inside of your own environment of, “Oh, you want a REST API; go ahead and do this.” It feels like their vision is a lot more prescriptive than what yours is.Matt: Yeah. I talked to them quite a lot about Proton, actually because, as always, there's different methodologies and different ways of doing things. And as I showed externally, we have our software accelerator, which is kind of our take on Proton, and it's very open. Anybody can contribute; anybody can consume. And then that way, it means that you don't necessarily have one central team, you can have—think of it more like an SRE function for all of the patterns, rather than… the Proton way is you've separate teams that are your DevOps teams that set up your patterns and then separate team that's consumer, and they have different permissions, different rights to do different things. If you use a Proton pattern, anytime an update is made to that pattern, it auto-deploys your infrastructure.Corey: I can see that breaking an awful lot.Matt: [laugh]. Yeah. So, the idea is sort of if you're a consumer, I assume you [unintelligible 00:24:35] be going to change that infrastructure. You can, they've built in an escape hatch, but the whole concept of it is there's a central team that looks to what the best configuration for that is. So, I think Proton has so much potential, I just think they need to loosen some of the boundaries for it to work for us, and that's the feedback I've given them directly as well.Corey: One thing that I want to take a step beyond this is, you care about this? More than most do. I mean, people will work with computers, yes. We get paid for that. Then they'll go and give talks about things. You're doing that as well. They'll launch a website occasionally, like, cdkpatterns.com, which you have. And then you just sort of decide to go for the absolute hardest thing in the world, and you're one of four authors of a book on this. Tell me more.Matt: Yeah. So, this is something that there's a few of us have been talking since one of the first CDK Days, where we're friends, so there's AWS Heroes. There's Thorsten Höger, Matt Bonig, Sathyajith Bhat, and myself, came together—it was sometime in the summer last year—and said, “Okay. We want to write a book, but how do we do this?” Because, you know, we weren't authors before this point; we'd never done it before. We weren't even sure if we should go to a publisher, or if we should self-publish.Corey: I argue that no one wants to write a book. They want to have written a book, and every first-time author I've ever spoken to at the end has said, “Why on earth would anyone want to do this a second time?” But people do it.Matt: Yeah. And that's we talked to Alex DeBrie, actually, about his book, the amazing Dynamodb Book. And it was his advice, told us to self-publish. And he gave us his starter template that he used for his book, which took so much of the pain out because all we had to do was then work out how we were going to work together. And I will say, I write quite a lot of stuff in general for people, but writing a book is completely different because once it's out there, it's out there. And if it's wrong, it's wrong. You got to release a new version and be like, “Listen, I got that wrong.” So, it did take quite a lot of effort from the group to pull it together. But now that we have it, I want to—I don't have a printed copy because it's only PDF at the minute, but I want a copy just put here [laugh] in, like, the frame. Because it's… it's what we all want.Corey: Yeah, I want you to do that through almost a traditional publisher, selfishly, because O'Reilly just released the AWS Cookbook, and I had a great review quote on the back talking about the value added. I would love to argue that they use one of mine for The CDK Book—and then of course they would reject it immediately—of, “I don't know why you do all this. Using the console and lying about it is way easier.” But yeah, obviously not the direction you're trying to take the book in. But again, the industry is not quite ready for the lying version of ClickOps.It's really neat to just see how willing you are to—how to frame this?—to give of yourself and your time and what you've done so freely. I sometimes make a joke—that arguably isn't that funny—that, “Oh, AWS Hero. That means that you basically volunteer for a $1.6 trillion company.”But that's not actually what you're doing. What you're doing is having figured out all the sharp edges and hacked your way through the jungle to get to something that is functional, you're a trailblazer. You're trying to save other people who are working with that same thing from difficult experiences on their own, having to all thrash and find our own way. And not everyone is diligent and as willing to continue to persist on these things. Is that a somewhat fair assessment how you see the Hero role?Matt: Yeah. I mean, no two Heroes are the same, from what I've judged, I haven't met every Hero yet because pandemic, so Vegas was the first time [I met most 00:28:12], but from my perspective, I mean, in the past, whatever number of years I've been coding, I've always been doing the same thing. Somebody always has to go out and be the first person to try the thing and work out what the value is, and where it'll work for us more work for us. The only difference with the external and public piece is that last 5%, which it's a very different thing to do, but I personally, I like even having conversations like this where I get to meet people that I've never met before.Corey: You sort of discovered the entire secret of why I have an interview podcast.Matt: [laugh]. Yeah because this is what I get out of it, just getting to meet other people and have new experiences. But I will say there's Heroes out there doing very different things. You've got, like, Hiro—as in Hiro, H-I-R-O—actually started AWS Newbies and she's taught—ah, it's hundreds of thousands of people how to actually just start with AWS, through a course designed for people who weren't coders before. That kind of thing is next-level compared to anything I've ever done because you know, they have actually built a product and just given it away. I think that's amazing.Corey: At some level, building a product and giving it away sounds like, “You know, I want to never be lonely again.” Well, that'll work because you're always going to get support tickets. There's an interesting narrative around how to wind up effectively managing the community, and users, and demands, based on open-source maintainers, that we're all wrestling with as an industry, particularly in the wake of that whole log4j nonsense that we've been tilting at that windmill, and that's going to be with us for a while. One last thing I want to talk about before we wind up calling this an episode is, you are one of the organizers of CDK Day. What is that?Matt: Yeah, so CDK Day, it's a complete community-organized conference. The past two have been worldwide, fully virtual just because of the situation we're in. And I mean, they've been pretty popular. I think we had about 5000 people attended the last one, and the idea is, it's a full day of the community just telling their stories of how they liked or disliked using the CDK. So, it's not a marketing event; it's not a sales event; we actually run the whole event on a budget of exactly $0. But yeah, it's just a day of fun to bring the community together and learn a few things. And, you know, if you leave it thinking CDK is not for you, I'm okay with that as much as if you just make a few friends while you're there.Corey: This is the first time I'd realized that it wasn't a formal AWS event. I almost feel like that's the tagline that you should have under it. It's—because it sounds like the CDK Day, again, like, it's this evangelism pure, “This is why it's great and why you should use it.” But I love conferences that embrace critical views. I built one of the first talks I ever built out that did anything beyond small user groups was “Heresy in the Church of Docker.”Then they asked me to give that at ContainerCon, which was incredibly flattering. And I don't think they made that mistake a second time, but it was great to just be willing to see some group of folks that are deeply invested in the technology, but also very open to hearing criticism. I think that's the difference between someone who is writing a nuanced critique versus someone who's just [pure-on 00:31:18] zealotry. “But the CDK is the answer to every technical problem you've got.” Well, I start to question the wisdom of how applicable it really is, and how objective you are. I've never gotten that vibe from you.Matt: No, and that's the thing. So, I mean, as we've worked out in this conversation, I don't work for AWS, so it's not my product. I mean, if it succeeds or if it fails, it doesn't impact my livelihood. I mean, there are people on the team who would be sad for, but the point is, my end goal is always the same. I want people to be enabled to rapidly deliver their software to help their customers.If that's CDK, perfect, but CDK is not for everyone. I mean, there are other options available in the market. And if, even, ClickOps is the way to go for you, I am happy for you. But if it's a case of we can have a conversation, and I can help you get closer to where you need to be with some other tool, that's where I want to be. I just want to help people.Corey: And if I can do anything to help along that axis, please don't hesitate to let me know. I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me and being so generous, not just with your time for this podcast, but all the time you spend helping the rest of us figure out which end is up, as we continue to find that the way we manage environments evolves.Matt: Yeah. And, listen, just thank you for having me on today because I've been reading your tweets for two years, so I'm just starstruck at this moment to even be talking to you. So, thank you.Corey: No, no. I understand that, but don't worry, I put my pants on two legs at a time, just like everyone else. That's right, the thought leader on Twitter, you have to jump into your pants. That's the rule. Thanks again so much. I look forward to having a further conversation with you about this stuff as I continue to explore, well honestly, what feels like a brand new paradigm for how we manage code.Matt: Yeah. Reach out if you need any help.Corey: I certainly will. You'll regret asking. Matt [Coulter 00:33:06], Technical Architect at Liberty Mutual. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, write an angry comment, then click the submit button, but lie and say you hit the submit button via an API call.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Neal Amrhein is the founder and CEO and Matt Erickson is the CTO of My Goat. My Goat is a subscription mowing service for commercial properties. They use robotic mowers and elegant software tools to make turf care easy, convenient, and affordable. Follow Neal on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/neil-amrhein-9398969/). Follow Erik on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-erickson-153fish/). My Goat (https://mygoat.co/) Follow MyGoat on Twitter (https://twitter.com/MyGoatCo), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/MyGoatCo), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/my-goat-inc), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjV3ITbDvfqhQGIImFL5T7g/featured), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/mygoatco/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is a couple of people from a company with actual robots. It's Neal Amrhein, the founder and CEO, and Matt Erickson, the CTO of My Goat. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me. So tell me more about this idea that you are robot-agnostic? Are you helping people choose the solution that's right for them? Or do you have go-to vendors? NEIL: We do. So my philosophy, having spent a number of years in technology selling hardware and even software solutions, is that one thing that my experience has held is that hardware gets better, faster, and cheaper. And for us to invest in a hardware platform or have customers invest in a hardware platform, I liken it to my early adoption of high-definition televisions where in 2003, I was one of those guys that spent $2,400 on a 42-inch Sony Wega TV. And now you can get a 70-inch with a lot more technology and so forth for about $300 at Costco. So my feeling about hardware is it gets better, faster, cheaper. It's really the software that makes the difference in terms of how you leverage it. So we engage about 6 to 12 different hardware manufacturers that make autonomous robots from robots that are 27 to 35 pounds up to 1,200 pounds and all different variations in between. And then, we extract the communication tools so that we can help our users who are formerly the groundskeepers become technology groundskeepers. And they are now interfacing with the concept of autonomous robots that are mowing commercial properties 24/7, which we would actually call maintaining versus mowing. So we use nighttime, you know, day, night, rain or shine. So that's why we're robot-agnostic and welcome the latest and greatest designers and developers of hardware. We've got some folks that are just totally focused on designing, and developing, and building awesome autonomous robotic mowers with solar panels or great things that are going out there. And we're the software platform that brings it all together. CHAD: I totally get what you're saying about the progress of hardware and wanting to be in the business of creating value on top of that. How do you make sure that you don't take on the business risk of one of the manufacturers just providing the solution that you're providing? NEIL: Chad, we don't look at a business risk if there's a manufacturer that's going and selling autonomous robotic mowers. We welcome that, in fact, because that helps us with the adoption process. The idea of having, you know, Roomba is the de facto vacuum cleaner that goes randomly in your house. But there are half a dozen other hardware devices and opportunities, and they're all selling it. It's really how are you managing that Roomba? Which is also the subscription component of the Netflix part of our business, which is that Roomba may be a shark next year. It may be something else the following year. For our customers, we select the best hardware for their particular property, whether it's a golf course. They may have an autonomous robot that's manufactured by XYZ for the tee box and another one for the fairway, and another one for the greens. They just pay a monthly subscription for access to the software to manage those particular hardware pieces and optimize that hardware. And that's something that Matt will talk a little bit about. But we really have taken the approach that robots are just like cars. They'll sit in your garage 20 hours out of the week, but they're actually effectively useful 168 hours a week. So how do we maximize that and utilize the hardware itself? And that's what our software does. And of course, with that, we share that information with our customers and our users to continue to make it more efficient. CHAD: Thanks, Neil. Matt, what does the software stack actually look like that you're all putting together? MATT: So we got to talk about the technology so Laravel, PHP, MySQL. We host in DigitalOcean. And we have a WordPress front end, but the back end is all Laravel PHP. CHAD: And so it's in the cloud for all the customers? MATT: Yes. CHAD: And then how do you communicate with the fleet? MATT: So we connect through APIs. The hardware generally has an API that can give us status updates at various intervals. So we aggregate that information back. And then, we present a web-based solution dashboard that includes different views. We can get into the different users and how we've tried to meet their needs and drive workflow for them. But at a high level, we've got some graphical dashboards. And we also have some very tactical workflows for the guys. We call them shepherds taking care of our goats on the ground. CHAD: I know that you said it's autonomous, but how do you communicate with the robots when you need to? Is it radio frequency locally, or is it cell phones? MATT: So the robots actually come with…they have both GPS and cellular connectivity. So we have pretty good real-time connectivity with the robots. So we can remotely control them. We can park them, or we can send them back to their charging stations, different features like that. You can adjust cutting height, things like that, remotely. We also use just text messaging, SMS for communicating with shepherds. It's kind of real-time feedback. So yeah, let me dig in a little bit, the autonomous idea of the robot. Yeah, we want them to be autonomous. And we work with our shepherds, groundskeepers so that each of the goats works in a pen, an area defined by that in the ground kind of like an invisible fence dog wire type thing. But basically, we work with the shepherds, and we have this training certification process. But basically, they can get that pen to an area where really what we shoot for about 72 hours of the robot should be able to operate autonomously within that pen for about three and a half days. And then shepherds will be instructed to move that robot to another pen for about three and a half days. Usually, one robot is taking care of…it ends up being about two and a half days. And that's kind of the way the software solution is driving that efficiency of people time as well as robot time. The robots can mow 24/7. They take care of the grass. They maintain it, as Neil mentioned earlier. So it's not throw the robot out once a week kind of thing. You have to change your thinking. A lot of what we deal with when we go to a robot solution over that traditional status quo mowing we really have to help people through that thought process of this is not how it used to be. It works differently. But yep, that's kind of the solution. CHAD: I feel like I need to ask, even though it's going to be a little bit of a tangent. MATT: [laughs] CHAD: How did you arrive at the name of My Goat and take the leap on a quirky name like that? NEIL: Yeah, it's a great question. [laughs] First of all, I think that I first saw one of these robots through a YouTube video about three and a half or four years ago. And you may or may not know this, Chad, but there are about 3 million of these things that have been sold since 1995. So this is not bleeding edge technology in any way, shape, or form. When I saw it on a YouTube video, it just kind of hit me that wow, these things are out there doing their thing day or night, rain or shine. And interestingly enough, the market, I guess the landscape market, the residential side, was somewhere in the neighborhood of $65 to $80 billion that we were targeting and looking at. And as far as the goats, I had talked to some early folks who were marketing folks, and we just settled on Goat. And then we put my on the front end of it. And before we knew it, we had My Goat. And as we've evolved from just a cool robot-centric organization that's using software, we've evolved into an organization that's really teaching shepherds how to become interactive with the goats. And it's taken a life of its own. The blades are called teeth. CHAD: [laughs] NEIL: And those are some of our…of course, the goats need to be brushed. They don't get washed, or they don't get sprayed down with water, but they get brushed. And there's the whole the operating system is the heart and all kinds of stuff that's been going on. CHAD: Well, I feel like with a name like My Goat, if you're not going to commit and carry that branding through to everything, what's the point? [laughter] NEIL: Right. Yes, it has taken a life of its own. And it's interesting. I don't know that it's the most catchy name for a software technology company. But it's certainly gotten some folks' attention, and it's helped. Let's put it this way: our marketing team really enjoys everything about what they can do with it. CHAD: Well, and there's something to having a brand and carrying that through in the naming that causes ideas to resonate with people and makes them special. At the end of the day, you're mowing lawns. And so making it special and communicating that you have something special, I think, is something that people can do regardless of what their product is thinking of ways of doing that. NEIL: Yeah. And I would add that I think the only pushback we've received on the name is probably from some of our high-end golf course users and prospects who don't want to turn their golf course into a goat track, so to speak. CHAD: [laughs] NEIL: But that's probably the extent of it. But overall, it's been well received without a doubt. And as we're focused on the software component of interacting with autonomous robots, our software development mentality and our vision is that it may be the same thing applied to 500 Roombas inside of a million square feet at a fulfillment center for Under Armour. And instead of having 50 people cleaning the floors, you may have five people managing 500. And how do they do that effectively and efficiently? So there's really a business-focused component of the vision that I've had for the business. And that's helped me, along with many others, to get us to where we are. MATT: I'm just going to jump in. You're right; the name sticks and people really adopt to the shepherd mentality. We get a lot of requests for shepherd crooks. [laughs] They all want a shepherd staff. CHAD: So along those lines, when people are considering working with you, what are some of the questions or concerns that they have about a solution? NEIL: Sure. So it's disruptive, Chad. I think I could probably start by saying the traditional way of maintaining or mowing commercial properties is that you have a big guy and a big machine, and how fast does it go? How much noise does it make? How many grass clippings get blown all over the place? You get in, and you get out. And then you start over. So in the state of Tennessee, where we are here, it's about 34 to 36 weeks of mowing a year. In Michigan, it's 17 to 22 weeks, depending on where you are. In South Florida, believe it or not, I know there are only 52 weeks, but they're mowing 56 to 58 times a year. So it's the frequency of going and mowing and blowing, right? CHAD: Mm-hmm. NEIL: We're changing that by saying, why be worried about the weather? Why would you be worried about darkness? Why would you be worried about noise regulations when you can have the grass maintained all the time? So that mentality of maintaining essentially two football fields a week up to three football fields a week with less than 35 minutes of labor. There is nothing in comparison. There's nothing you can compare with the traditional what we call the status quo to make that happen. So the labor efficiency and improvement in labor productivity is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the cost savings and the financial payback. So because we are so disruptive, a lot of what we do, and a lot of the time we spend, and one of our core values is being educators. So back to your question about manufacturers selling their own proprietary hardware; absolutely, the more the merrier. We welcome. To me, the sign of success and progress is not the small city block that has one gas station but has four gas stations on the corner. It just now means there are cars that are driving around. And so, I embrace that level of competition. I believe iron sharpens iron. And folks who are traditionally in the landscape space who have made trimmers and blowers and chainsaws are now finding a little bit of competition with folks who are now solely focused on making unbelievably efficient autonomous robotic mowers, or cleaners, or robots in general, which is, again, we're not crashing giant robots although that's the name of your podcast. [laughter] We're not trying to crash them or break them. But it is certainly the foundation for where we are. MATT: Hey, Neil, you've got a good analogy. I think analogies help explain concepts. So you want to run through your airport analogy with the runways and the different airlines? NEIL: Yeah, I could share that with you. Thanks for reminding me. So my philosophy about…we sell subscriptions that are based upon a geography, Chad. CHAD: Size of geography, you mean? NEIL: Yeah, the size of the geography. So it's about a football field, give or take. Based upon some limitations with technology, we put invisible dog fences in the ground, and we charge our users, our subscribers by the particular pen or the number of pens, and then there's a ratio. So much like in an airport, we're not selling flights; we're selling runways. And those runways are accessible by all kinds of…you may have 30 terminals at the gates, and you may have five different airlines. And each of those airlines has a different brand and name, but they're using multiple hardware components. Those jets are maybe McDonnell Douglas, or maybe they're a Boeing or whatever it may be. All of that is fine by us. What we do is we have the software that runs the gates, the terminals. So you have Southwest in terminal two and Delta in terminal 32. And they're using our software to figure out how to get the baggage on the planes and get those planes off the ground so they can make money for their businesses. So we look at it that way. And that's kind of where our IP rests is in that spot in that place. And, again, there'll be other airlines, whether it's Allegiant or whomever buying more Boeing planes. But ultimately, they'll all need a runway, and the software that manages the process and the workflow is what we're focused on. CHAD: So, is the total cost of ownership of autonomous solution typically lower than what they are doing today? NEIL: It is, specifically, the labor improvement is generally about 3x in terms of improving the efficiency of the labor. So if you talk about an average groundskeeper who may be responsible for mowing, if it's a perfect day outside mowing nine acres a day and they are out there five days a week, they may have efficiencies of maybe up to 40 or 45 acres a week. With our solution, that is increased to about 135 to 145 acres a week where they can maintain about 70 mowers, 70 autonomous robotic mowers, or 70 goats as we call them. They'll herd 70 goats with the same full-time employee. So that's one aspect. With that, the immediate reaction is, well, you're eliminating jobs. We're actually redeploying jobs. I'm a builder. I'm a job creator. I've had 4,800 folks work for me in my home care business over the last 12 years. And so, I'm a big believer in improving and deploying folks in areas that we don't have robots. So, for example, there's no robot right now that's pruning trees or making up a sand trap, robots that are planting flowers or putting mulch in a flower bed. So those kinds of jobs are still out there. We're just making the traditional idea of throwing somebody on a mower in the middle of a cemetery or golf course or open space and having them manage that through our software platform sitting in their F150 pushing start and stop or pause and doing other things. CHAD: Instead of riding on the mower. NEIL: You got it. MATT: A lot of our potential customers come to us because (we kind of touched on that) there's a labor shortage. It's hard for folks to find people that want to ride zero-turns. So to Neil's point, we're not about deploying robots, kind of one for one replacing jobs. It's basically we're taking the labor force that we can get, that we have, and we're retraining them to be more efficient through these robots. Pretty age-old story when you're talking about industrialization. But the idea is we haven't displaced workers. They're not hiring fewer people. They're taking everybody they can get. And they're doing all of that value add. The groundskeepers now have time to go out and do the mulching and the landscaping, trimming, improving the property. A lot of these groundskeepers have a lot of pride in their property. And they would rather be doing the items that to them are a value add and beautification projects rather than just riding a Back 40 or a zero-turn. We had one shepherd say, hey, it's really helped his back. Riding a lawnmower is kind of rough. And walking around every now and then helping out a robot is a whole lot easier of a physical life for you. Mid-roll Ad I wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. We do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. Whether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U. CHAD: So I saw on the website because of the kind of solution and the scale that it's at, it seems like you have a few different key customer bases. You want to talk about that and whether you knew that going in, or did you find them along the way? NEIL: Yeah, that's a great question. So we came out of the gate initially with early investors. We were focused on what we considered was the low-hanging fruit in the residential space. So we had designed and developed the operational and financial template to actually have shepherds who were employees of My Goat. And we would have the Goats sold in a subscription model to residential customers. And then we'd have the goat stay on a property and then get moved, et cetera. But we learned very quickly that business to consumer and residential customers it's not that impossible; it just was not as low-hanging fruit as we had thought initially because folks leave rakes in the yard. And anytime a goat comes upon a rake, it's going to get trapped, and therefore it needs to be rescued. And you have to send a shepherd out, et cetera. Or somebody decides to put a new vegetable garden, and they break the wire that's in the ground. They're just a bunch of…, or there's a dog chasing the robot or a little kid out there, or somebody stops it. So those required a lot of…it didn't make the robot autonomous. So we pivoted in late 2019, early 2020 into the commercial space. We expired all of our subscriptions to residential customers and went completely into the commercial space. And we had had some success with some golf courses and some cemeteries. And we've gained a lot more momentum now with cities and counties, regional airports. But large open areas that are a minimum of five acres, typically we would run a pilot or a preview with at least 12 to 14 acres. But the biggest restriction, of course, when you get into those large open areas is electricity because they've been traditionally maintained or mowed by gas-powered machines. So back to your other question about where the savings is and the payback period, and how we have an immediate impact. There's an operational savings that is pretty quick in terms of the return because we flatten out a lot of the ups and downs that a traditional landscaper has. So let's take a golf course, for example. The average golf course spends about $80,000 per hole per year and depending on the course, 45% to 60% of that is spent on mowing, mowing machines, and people involved. And we're able to take that, and they're hiring temporary people in March here in the south, and they have them here until October. So they're having to go through that cycle every single year. So if they can flatten that operational expense out by redesigning the golf course and having…and maybe it's not 100%. Much like a Roomba, you still have to get the corners and the edges, maybe with a broom if it doesn't get into every nook and cranny. So it's not a 100% solution. It's not for every application. But as we moved into the commercial space, we found a greater payback period not only on the cost of the gasoline is...you know, take a zero-turn mower. And again, I say that's probably our greatest competitor is institutionalized thinking to say, this year we're going to buy a big green, big red, or big orange machine for $16,000 or $18,000, Kubota, Toro, or John Deere. And we're going to do the same thing we did last year. We're going to find a guy who can operate it. We're going to put gas in it, and we're going to run it around. Well, you put hours in those things, and they're very costly to maintain if you hit a root. So you've got to make sure that you can't run a 1,800-pound mower when it's been raining for three days. So what do you do with a fairway when it's soggy or any other commercial area that could be…or a hill that could be dangerous. So we've found a lot of application and then, of course, the environmental part of it, Chad. So the average zero-turn emits the equivalent of a carbon footprint every hour it's running about 300 miles of a Toyota Camry running. So they haven't become more efficient. And then you've got noise regulations and so forth in a lot of communities. And even in California, they're moving in the direction of I think it's 2024 where gas-powered and oil-powered landscaping blowers and tremors, et cetera, are not going to be allowed, or you'll be fined for using them. So that's the third component of where My Goat has seen some opportunities in the commercial space. CHAD: You mentioned that they can run at night. So they must be quiet. They must be. NEIL: Yes, they are. And it's not the traditional…you're not making as much of a mess. Some of our cemetery customers have mentioned that the fact that their trimming has been reduced by up to 50% because they're going up and over markers because they only weigh 27 pounds. They're mostly plastic and rubber. They're not doing any damage to vases. So they're having a cost reduction in that regard but also with the uprights. Folks have their family members in a particular private estate area where they may have an upright, and if you have a zero-turn mower out there throwing and splashing grass clippings, you're likely having to go out there again with more labor and take a blower and clean up the mess that the mower made. So these little small operational components along with the experience. Again, back to the cemetery, you're asking about why we're there. We know that industry very well. And we know that the experience that loved ones want to have when they're out there celebrating life and grieving across a 40 or 50-acre property. They don't want to hear a zero-turn. So you're turning those things off three or four times a day for those services, and you're having that individual parked a quarter-mile away. No longer is that an operational challenge or a concern because all of these robots are being controlled, start, stopped, and programmed through our software. CHAD: That's really cool. So you mentioned investors and the early pivot away from residential to commercial. What does your funding story look like? And what phase did you get to when you took on investment? And let's start there. How did you find your initial investors? And what phase were you at when you did that? NEIL: Yeah, that's a great question. So we went through the traditional friends and family and moved into an angel round, but really I started my first company…bootstrapped it. And so, I wasn't really proficient in raising money in the traditional sense. I had an idea, put a business plan together. And I talked to a couple of folks and just told the story. To be honest with you, Chad, I wasn't really asking for money. I was more or less asking for advice. And then a number of folks were like, "Are you taking money? I'd like to take an equity position." And so, we structured the business and the shares on a pre-revenue valuation. And then, within 14 months, we were able to double that valuation. And we're now opening a new round here and a Series A with a valuation that's nearly five times our initial valuation. So we're making a lot of progress because we have, again, it's an annual recurring revenue stream. It's a subscription model. And what we did with our investors in the early rounds is many of them came on, and they just wanted to be silent. They were not interested in having an opinion. They wanted me and my team to run it. So that's been very helpful. So that's where we are in 2022. We'll be opening and closing a Series A. And I certainly can get more specific with others about that if your listeners or audience are interested. CHAD: So when you think about a Series A, what will you be using that for? What are your next scaling goals? NEIL: My commitment to my investors in the previous two rounds has been to sales and technology, so sales, business development, and technology enhancement to the software, so hiring more developers, scaling that team. Matt's leading the vision, and we've got a number of other folks who are involved in the user experience. But again, because we're a software company, it starts with a demonstration that's usually 15 or 20 minutes that can be scheduled through our website at mygoat.co. And it goes from there. On the sales side and business development is telling the story. In those verticals, we're interested in building out potentially even reseller markets with other industries that are aligned with us. We've had some very high-level conversations with folks that sell electricity for a living. The Tennessee Valley Authority we became an early preferred partner with them and because they have carbon credit that they can offer and sell to their customers, their local power companies. And they're in the business of selling power. And we're in the business of providing subscriptions that require power. CHAD: What are some barriers to continuing to scale? Do you have geographic barriers? NEIL: I have self-imposed geographic barriers, [laughter] So it's a Neil Amrhein barrier. But overall, our barriers, our challenges really are; I've never heard of these things before. Do they actually mow? So we get through those conversations fairly quickly. But depending on who we're talking to, it also becomes a fear. People fear change and especially things that are disruptive. So our barriers, once we get through the fear, is we don't have any electricity here on this golf course, or this city park, or this regional airport that there is unlimited electricity. So we can pull whatever electricity is necessary there. So it is really the barriers of education, just like anything that's truly disruptive in an industry that's been doing the same thing for 45 or 50 years. CHAD: So you already talked about how you view potential competition from manufacturers, but how do you view competition in general? Is there other competition out there? NEIL: The biggest competition we have is institutionalized thinking, which is doing the same thing we did last year. So that's a battle that we have every day. I like competition because I think it makes the end product, and the customer is the one who benefits the most from having lots of people in the market no matter what their angle is. We like our position because, again, we're not the hardware manufacturer. We're able to work with others. We're the financial advisor that gets to work with the insurance guy and everybody else, where all your money is with your college buddy who's managing it, et cetera. We're agnostic. We're putting it all together. So it benefits everybody. And those who make and manufacture these robots get the benefit as well because it's part of the subscription process as far as that's concerned. But the more, the merrier. A lot of people come to me and say, "Well, I saw an autonomous robotic mower out on this lawn or in the neighborhood here." And that's good for us. CHAD: Matt, I assume that being robot-agnostic means that you need to integrate with the different systems. Does that have challenges? MATT: You know, not really. Robots are, as far as the autonomous robotic lawn mowers, they're pretty much telling us the same thing. There are status updates; there are battery updates; there are GPS coordinates. It does tend to be a pretty common data set that we're seeing. So it's been a lot easier than I thought. When you think about…data integrations are always the top challenge you have. It's worked out a lot better than we thought initially. CHAD: Well, that's great. Has there been anything surprising the other way which was something you thought was going to be easy turned out to be a lot harder? MATT: Yeah. We've had a manufacturer that actually had a tiered concept in their data availability. They weren't giving us all of the data that they had. They were saving it because they were running their own kind of hey, you can use home automation techniques to integrate with your residential autonomous robotic lawnmower. Hey, if it's raining at your house, we could park your robot. So they were kind of hiding some of the API from us. We were able to work through that. But I think that goes to one of your questions about concern around competition from the manufacturers. They're really not looking at this from that niche that we're hitting, that commercial perspective. Maintaining one Roomba in your house is the analogy I use. You kind of know where he gets stuck, and you go find him. And that's okay. You don't need a lot of software for that. But that analogy Neil mentioned, if you have 500 of these guys running around a warehouse, or for us, we have property with 50 robots on. How do you know which one right now -- CHAD: And the space that that takes up. MATT: Right. Right. CHAD: You can't see them all necessarily even. MATT: [laughs] Exactly. You can't. You can't just walk around and see everyone and visually check. You need that software to be efficient to know; oh, there are three things I need to do today with the robots. Let me plan that out, and let me take care of it. So I think, like Neil said, the manufacturers out there they're making lawn equipment. They're making lots of different hardware. And to them, fleet management is really where is my hardware right now? [laughs] That's the extent of it. And they can't think about a property that needs maybe two or three different manufacturers of hardware because properties are not one homogeneous set of type of grass. There are always different needs, different features on that property. So there's always that idea that we're going to need a couple of different manufacturers, maybe. So, yeah, it's really interesting. For me, I think it's we're really hitting a home run in an area that there really aren't any other competitors exactly in our niche. And if there are, I think the industry for us what we do is at a place where we need more adoption out there in the world. [crosstalk 34:03] CHAD: Do you ever hear from early adopters? People who say they've either already bought autonomous mowers and they're struggling to manage them, or they really want to, and they're coming to you to do it? NEIL: That's a great point. I have a couple of thoughts here because you guys are going in a lot of different directions here. MATT: [laughs] NEIL: Chad, the short answer is when people buy anything early on, they're going to have the proverbial challenges of who supports it when it breaks? Who do I call? What happens next? It just goes on and on and on, whether it's a hardware platform, and that's mostly the case, or it's something else. It's what does that support look like? So the early adopters when we talk about their experiences, and this is one of the things I would say is probably our biggest challenge is that we have created a learning management software platform, a video library of how do you work with robots? We know that they're going to get trapped. There is no doubt that a 27-pound autonomous goat if there is a lightning strike like there was here in Nashville last night, they're going to be tree limbs that are down. And there'll be goats that are trapped. And it's going to take a human being, a shepherd, to be notified via SMS alert to proactively go to that spot on that property across 50 or 100 acres and rescue that goat. And it's just a matter of these kinds of things happen environmentally. So we talk about, when we talk to customers, about their utilization of the goat. And we talk about optimizing their property. It's not really that the goat doesn't graze or the robot doesn't work. It's what are the restrictions and the environmental challenges that are in front of it? If there are erosion issues around a marker or in a large open field, and if it's a really well-groomed practice field or intramural field, it's likely going to be aerated. It's going to be very flat, et cetera. But most commercial properties are not that way. So the goats actually have a tendency to go out, and they're going to find all those environmental challenges. And it requires a human being to go out there and fix them. Because if the environmental challenge is that there's a hole and on a horse farm, it's going to be there until somebody throws some dirt in it. It's just the reality. And that goat is going to find that environmental challenge every single time. So there is a learning curve that goes with it. There's a level of patience. And I think you mentioned what's our challenge? Our challenge is letting folks know that it's an evolution, not a revolution, as far as what your property is going to look like. I spent a number of years at the Ritz Carlton Hotel Company, and we talk about property health as is it a two-star property, a three-star property, four-star property, five-star property? We recognize that a lot of commercial properties are going to just be a two-star. But potentially, they could be a three-star property. Or if it's a cemetery and you've got a goat that's maybe found environmental challenges on a cemetery, it also becomes a liability or risk for family members who go visit their loved ones. So now we're using the robot proactively to improve the status of the property as opposed to saying, well, it just gets trapped every time it finds a hole or every time there's a situation that goes on. So it does require an active level of engagement and maintenance. And the philosophy has to be changed so that groundskeepers are now checking their phones or being alerted at 7:15 in the morning. And they may go rescue Billy, the goat, because a lot of folks name their robots. [laughter] They're going out there, and they're in pen 34,27, 31. And then at lunchtime, they may have another two or three of the same goats that were trapped, need to be rescued, and then again at 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon. So it's a maintenance mentality as opposed to a mow and go mentality. So that is philosophically a big change in terms of their mindset. CHAD: So what's next for My Goat then? You mentioned the Series A. Is there anything in particular on your radar that you're either worried about or are looking forward to? NEIL: Looking forward to more folks like your audience and listeners hearing our story. I'm in the business of telling our story. And I welcome, again, the competition because that means there's validation for what's going on. I don't think we're going to stuff this genie back in the bottle, so to speak. It's going to be hard for me to believe that five, six years from now, folks are going to be out there firing up a push mower that they just bought at Lowe's when they can buy something at Lowe's that's $250 for a residential robot that they get to use. Same thing on the commercial space. I don't know what it ultimately looks like from a vision perspective. But I think our challenge is continuing the messaging, the adoption, enhancing the payback period. It is really just like any good technology, artificial intelligence, robotics, et cetera. I mean, that combination. I hold the position, Chad, that I don't really think any technology is being developed or new per se since the invention of the internet. It's the application of the technology. It's what are people doing that they weren't doing before? We have the communication tools with 5G or what have you that we didn't have five or six years ago that we can now ping our goats every 15 minutes and find out what their status is. And then we can report that back to the user and say, "Hey, your optimization or utilization on your hardware and your subscription is X, Y, and Z. And your return on investment is six months to 16 months." That's where I think it elevates the conversation of efficiency and changes the game. So our next steps are continuing to get the message out, embrace not only users but industries we haven't thought about. I mentioned horse farms that just came on my radar screen not too long ago. We've had some success with cities and counties. You can imagine…everything one of our core values is green is good, and time is a number. So you just drive down the interstate, and you can see so much green everywhere as far as opportunities ahead. And there's plenty of room for lots of people to play in this space. We welcome more and more of probably the designers and developers that you got on this podcast to come up with the latest and greatest hardware and make those APIs available for Matt and his team to integrate and continue to grow. CHAD: That's great. If folks want to reach out to you to either learn more or see if you can work together, where are the best places for them to do that? NEIL: Sure. Let me first direct them to www.mygoat.co. And there are a series of areas there where it's either click on a demo now or information. Our phone number is listed there as well. I'll also give you my email address, which is Neil, N-E-I-L neil@mygoat.co, so neil@mygoat.co. And Matt's is just matt@mygoat.co as well. And those are probably the fastest way to connect with us. And if they put in a quick subject line your name and your podcast, it'll bubble everybody to the top a little faster. CHAD: Wonderful. Thank you both for joining me. I really appreciate it. MATT: Absolutely. Thank you, Chad. NEIL: Thank you for having us. CHAD: And I wish you all the best. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time. Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guests: Matthew Erickson and Neal Amrhein.

“Just when I thought I was out…they pull me back in” a famous line from Godfather Part III and a recurring theme I've noticed for those of who have used WordPress for a while. No matter how much we might moan about the shortcomings of WordPress, it's still pretty darn powerful. The core of WordPress is getting better, read: Gutenberg and Full Site Editing. Some sharp edges, yes, but software is software — it will iterate into something great. Maybe you left WordPress a few years ago because of Gutenberg, but I bet you second guessed yourself when that Netlify CMS lacked a user and permissions system, custom post types, and an easy way to install a contact form. Oh, and what about ecommerce? Yeah…well…what about it?! WooCommerce, still the sleeping giant, is about to get some lemon squeezed right in the eye. JR Farr returns to the Matt Report to talk about his latest product, Lemon Squeezy. A NOT Easy Digital Downloads alternative that's looking to take it's share of the e-commerce market. Learn more about the collective and the other products JR is a part of over at https://makelemonade.wtf/ Episode transcription [00:00:00] Matt: Welcome back to the Matt report podcast, special guest today, a man that I met God, I don't know if I had my notes in front of me. If I was a professional podcast or years ago at PressNomics spoiler alert, there was some stuff in the news about pages. And maybe we'll talk a little bit about that today, Jr. [00:00:17] Jr. Welcome to the program.  [00:00:20] JR: I know, man. Thanks for having me again. When I  [00:00:22] Matt: interviewed you last time, I think it was right on the heels of you selling your company and you're back building another company. You are the co-founder of a man. I was just trying to think of, of a great word. An Avengers team. [00:00:37] You certainly don't want to be like, I dunno, the guardians of the galaxy co-founder and CEO of make lemonade recently launched something called lemon squeezy that we'll talk about today. Yeah. How many, well, actually, let me, before we get in. Was it two years ago. I remember taking a phone call from you. [00:00:57] You were asking me about starting a podcast. You started a podcast. Oftentimes I would broadcast that podcast onto my big screen TV. And watch you drink old fashions talking about startups. What  [00:01:10] JR: happened? Yeah, no, that's a good question. So, like, So me and you go way back, right? Especially in the WordPress space. [00:01:17] Mojo was, was a good ride. Built a marketplace up, went and did the executive life at endurance for a long time, and then wanting to go on my own again. And so I got way into SAS customer attention because of what we were doing at Bluehost and things like that. Anyway, I was trying to get into that space and trying to find lightening in a bottle like I did with WordPress so quickly. [00:01:40] Right. It's so fast. It's like, oh yeah, I can do this again. And starting a company again is hard. And so, we tried to get into that space and it just kind of fell flat. And so yeah, I did a podcast for it around it, and we broke down a lot of different SAS companies, onboarding, offboarding, things like that. [00:01:56] But yeah, it was a good, it was fun though. I felt like I learned a lot, especially. Podcasting and being able to articulate things with words right. A lot better. So yeah, it was a great, it was a great production. Yeah. Thanks man. It was actually believe it or not. It was in my basement. Oh, wow. There you go. [00:02:11] Yeah. Yeah.  [00:02:12] Matt: Awesome. What's the. In that world, let's say the SAS world that you learned. I mean, you came from WordPress through WordPress, into endurance, arguably the largest corporation that touches, well, I don't know if it's the largest, but a large corporation that touches WordPress. Then you go in and try to do like, what many of us might listen to this week in startups, tech crunch. [00:02:34] And we're like, Hey SAS, world. What's the biggest, what's the biggest difference that you found from that world versus the WordPress world?  [00:02:44] JR: I mean, obviously the community is way different, right? Cause because there's so many different sounds. So you got, you got enterprise, mid market, small market SMBs got bootstrap, versus most people in the WordPress space are bootstrap. [00:02:54] So that was like, everyone was on like some of a playing field back in the day. I would say the [00:03:00] end of where I come from, everything has been bootstrapped, so I, I don't get me wrong. I definitely had opportunities. I still do to, to, to go raise like most of us, I guess, but I just it's in my roots, right. To like, just build it and self-fund it and grow it. [00:03:14] And so I would say that's like a big thing, like when you're getting into that space, Man, you gotta, you going up some big boys that have a lot of funding, even if they are in the SMB or mid-market or enterprise, right? Like you kind of get there's just, the playing field is so much bigger,  [00:03:28] Matt: so it might be, this might be a softball question. [00:03:31] I mean, I kinda know what it is cause I know that you're going to have a bias question, especially now that you've launched a lemon squeezy and a side note. It's not just an easy digital download rev. Okay. Yeah, we've got a lot more that we're going to cover about lemon squeezy in a moment, but I've been having a lot of folks on my podcast recently in the no-code space, I've been fascinated with the no code space, no comes low-code space. [00:03:53] For me it sort of like brings that same energy back when I first discovered not even WordPress, but Drupal when I could do things with Drupal as like a non-developer with CCK and views. And we're talking almost 20 years ago being like, wow, I can code this. Knowing this PHP thing. It's interesting that, Well, here's the question. [00:04:14] What if you were to start, and I know this is, this is the softball moment. If you were to start a little bit more of a technical company today, maybe not WordPress, would you start with a WordPress framework or would you combine a couple of no-code apps that you really love to do something else?  [00:04:29] JR: Well, I think luckily for me, like the teams that I have along the rides with me, they're technical enough that I don't have to, but I definitely think I would. [00:04:39] I honestly would maybe pick something else. I built mojo on WordPress back then, and that was before WooCommerce and before, easy to download. So like it was all custom and just the limitations sometimes in, around the database and queries and stuff. It's, it's not built for that. So. Maybe it's a marketing site it's different, but when it comes to a full blown app, I just think there's way better options out  [00:05:02] there. [00:05:03] Matt: Yeah. So there, there are. So it just seems like there's a no-code app coming online every single day to try to like compete against air table and Google sheets and collide in bubble. Right. And I'm looking at it. Like I was looking at Pais builders rising three years ago in the WordPress space. I'm just like, damn man, you all going to survive this? [00:05:21] Or there's this like, The, survival of the fittest and that's just the market plays out. Yup. Yup. How did you get, so the, the parent company make lemonade, how did you form this team? Because I've had four out of five of you on my podcast.  [00:05:40] JR: So yeah, the founding team there, they're the co-founders, there's four of us and it was. [00:05:45] There was a, quite a bit of work. It was, it was probably at least a year and a half in the making of just chatting and what, what are you working on? What, what are you building and what do you want to do? And so real quick, just talking about, let me just name the, if people don't know who we are. [00:05:58] So make lemonade was the [00:06:00] idea of it is when we were all talking before we were kind of in the thick of 2020, where it was just. Shit, right. It was just a lot of sour lemons kind of getting thrown out everyone. Right. All of us were getting hit with this. And so that's kind of where it was born. It was like, well, let's take these lemons and let's make some lemonade, and so we kind of, like you said, formed this quartet or a vendor group, or we call it a collective, which is Orman Clark. Yeah. It was known for donkey was also the, kind of the guy that set the tone on theme forest years ago. And then Jason's jeweler theme garden, press 75. And Gilbert who was a nivo slider for the OGs and spin up WP delicious brains and myself. [00:06:42] So yeah, we kind of all came together and we kind of started to really get excited about this, make lemonade idea. Let's bring all of our brands together. Let's bring all of our things we have together, and let's really see if we can build a collective and launch some pretty kick ass products. And the first one is the biggest one that we're really, I guess, leaning most of our resources into is, is limits. [00:07:03] Matt: Talk to me about how you kept these conversations going. I think that's one of the most unique things about WordPress is you have communities, like, let's say post post status and stuff like that. But I think that it goes even beyond that, where you see folks at a word camp, you see what they're doing in our space and you just it's so easy to reach out. [00:07:21] Was it like that for you? Or are you guys all in like a mastermind and connected in some other way? Like who sparked the first conversation?  [00:07:27] JR: It was actually so Jason and Orman and Chris Malter were actually having conversations as well. And then Chris Malter and Jason were actually building a product called rivet, which was a therefore, a outside of WordPress as well. [00:07:41] Kind of, it was, you could take your YouTube channel and build a site from it. I don't know if you guys ever saw that, but it's really cool. And I actually ping them and said, Hey guys, what are you doing with this? Like, can I help in any way? It looks like. Maybe I could help with the marketing side, stuff like that. [00:07:54] And so that kind of like kicked off a conversation and an Orman got back involved and then it was actually, the four of us were chatting and then eventually Gilbert kinda got brought up and that's kinda how we kicked things off. But yeah, like it's funny because it goes back to where, I mean, Jason and I, we met similar to you. [00:08:11] I mean, how me and you did, which was years ago at a conference. I think it was the first PressNomics, which was forever ago. And so, yeah, we've just, it's all about relationships, right. And I would say that I really pushed hard to get everybody, like, I think that's one of my strengths is like being a connector and like making, getting, allowing things to connect and, and kind of glued together. [00:08:34] And I would, I like to think that I really helped be influential in getting us all to finally do what we're going to do. Even bringing Gilbert over full-time he was at delicious brains building. They just launched spin up WP. So. We had to convince him to come over. And so that wasn't some easy task, right. [00:08:51] He was happy with where he was at and, but it's, it's, it's worked out and I think we've got a pretty solid team. We've actually brought in a [00:09:00] few more makers into the collective which I can briefly mention, which is Mike McAllister, James Kemp, Patrick Posner. And there's a few guys from the old Moto team that are actually helping with us too. [00:09:12] So got a nice little squad. That's working on stuff together.  [00:09:18] Matt: Lemon squeezy. The, the H one is sell digital products. That easy-peasy way e-commerce space, digital download space, massive untapped, I think in the WordPress world. But before we talk about that, I want to talk about all of these products that are listed on the make lemonade.wtf. [00:09:37] That's the URL. If you're listening to this, make lemonade.wtf, it'll be in the show notes. I'm on I'm on the webpage right now, iconic app. I remember watching that launch and thinking that's pretty awesome. Positive notes, dunked, premium pixels, kick link, a whole bunch of stuff. And this new digital S download product. [00:09:56] How do you keep focus? Is that the magic of a collective, like everyone gets their own little, territory to cover, break that down for me.  [00:10:04] JR: Yeah. So it ebbs and flows, right? So there's, I mean, to be fair, some of these products were existing. So dunked obviously was Orman's he brought that into the collective. [00:10:12] And so as we grow that, as a team that's, that kind of works its way into the collective iconic was new. But to be totally honest right  [00:10:20] Matt: now,  [00:10:23] JR: The focus thing has been brought up. It's it's, it's been a subjective. Like what do we do? Let's be realistic. We are bootstrapped. There's only so many of us are we being silly by pulling ourselves to sin across everything. [00:10:36] And so, we continue to maintain the products that we have launched. So dunked and iconic and things, but right now the focus is a hundred percent limits with you for the team  [00:10:44] Matt: I interviewed. Well, before I get there, let me ask you this question on the collective. Is there a way, like when you look at that and somebody's like, Hey man, I would love to be part of this team is like the application process. [00:10:58] Is your resume, an existing product you've already built and you bring that to the collective to show it off. And how do I get my podcast in there? No, I'm just kidding. How do I like when you bring it there? Like, is that the process, is that how you look for a new member of the collective?  [00:11:13] JR: So it's actually, I take a really good question. [00:11:15] I didn't even think about that before we came on, but that is a lot of it. I mean, we do have some. I've kind of put together how people come into the collective. There, there is a process to it. That's not the only way. So obviously if your skillset is what kind of we're looking for at the moment, we'll bring in there's different ways that we can kind of bring you in the collective where you can to participate in all the products with us, as well as if you have your own product, then that gets the power of the collective, right? [00:11:42] Like, I mean, look at premium pixel, for example, that's a really old brand. I mean, as you can, there's a sh there's tons of people on an email list, right. That just get featured into the rest of our products. But like iconic app was very similar. That's James McDonald. Who's you don't know him. He's an amazing icon [00:12:00] design. [00:12:01] And he wanted to do an icon set. And so the team kind of got together with him and he did all the icons and then we built everything else. And so, and it leverages lemon squeezy to sell it. So that was like a really, really cool way to bring someone in, to work on just an individual product with us. And then the other team members like Mike and James and Patrick, they're helping us limit squeezy, but they're also gonna get the benefit of the rest of the collective too. [00:12:24] So. It's it, it can go either way. It just really depends on the person. Yeah.  [00:12:31] Matt: I interviewed Matt Mullenweg earlier this year. And I think that, well, maybe not, it might not be obvious to everyone and maybe some of you out there are thinking, well, we've already got woo commerce. We don't need anything else who could survive an e-commerce play in this space up against the giant that is Rue commerce and alternatives like Shopify. [00:12:54] I know that. And I am by no means trying to give you a veteran and proven CEO slash entrepreneur, any advice, but I know that it's either going to take a boatload of money to compete or just a bad-ass product that is just hitting it on all cylinders. I think this is, this is not really a good question. [00:13:13] This is me just like pontificating this on a soap box. Like I think this is gonna be a bad-ass product. I think this is going to be the home run side of it. S inside my gut says, you probably feel the same way, because if you just execute on an amazing product, you can compete and you can win. Look at all the foreign plugins we have. [00:13:33] Right, right, right. Look at all of the similar stuff we have that's out there. This is, just because the giants out there doesn't mean you shouldn't build it. Your thoughts.  [00:13:43] JR: Yeah, no, I it's a really good, and obviously we've got to be realistic, right? Like we are going up against some 800 pound gorillas. [00:13:49] Which is fine. I've done it before. But I think where lemon squeezy was different, is it is, it is a SAS first. Right. So we, we kind of have this unique ability to package in a lot of features that as much as I love WordPress, like, you do have to put together like a decent amount of plugins sometimes for something to work that costs money, that constant that's maintenance, that's conflicts, that's, maybe opening yourself up to some security issues depending on what kind of plugins you're getting. [00:14:19] If it's not from a reliable source. So. I think that's a unique thing that we do have. And then I think the team that's building the lemon squeezy plugin, right. Even though it's V1 and it's not extremely powerful at the moment, but it gives you all the power lemon squeezy from day one, which I think is super cool. [00:14:37] It's a totally different way of thinking about building it. And we can just totally, supercharge your WordPress site with lemon squeezy. So I think we're coming at it from a different angle. Which is exciting for me and it doesn't kind of pin us into one thing. But you're right. I mean, we're going to have to just iterate fast and quickly on this thing. [00:14:57] So, when we first came out, it's interesting, now that we're getting in the [00:15:00] WordPress space, when we first came out, it was looked at us, it will be looked at like a, like a Gumroad alternative. Right. It was just, that was kind of the feature set, but we're releasing some pretty big things around our website. [00:15:11] And so that's kind of positioning us into a different market, the WordPress space. Now we're getting positioned in there against easel downloads. But I will say one last thing about digital products is all of us come from that space. And it's, it's complicated. Yes, there's WooCommerce, but it's primarily, it's meant for physical stuff. [00:15:27] It does do digital stuff, but there's a lot to think about, right? Like security and how those files are delivered and software verges. I mean, even just the, the auto updates and. You know how you deliver the license keys. Like there's a lot of stuff to think about. And then that ties way into support. How do you support the product? [00:15:47] And so I think we've got a good, like view, a very good focus view on like how to tackle.  [00:15:53] Matt: How do you manage, who gets to say, who gets the say in which features to add into a product like this? Because the Gumroad alternative, they easy digital downloads, alternative, the lightweight version of WooCommerce. [00:16:08] Again, as somebody who hasn't had the same product successes, you, but have been in companies that have had products assess, I don't mind those comparisons because it's just easy for customers to understand, but then there's like that 20%. Month after month or a year, quarter after quarter, you're like, okay, but we still need to keep edging our way to a differentiator, a different value prop. [00:16:30] So who gets this, who gets to lead that with this product?  [00:16:36] JR: Man? That's a good question. So right now I think we've done a decent job with the four of us of allowing us to. Really give our say, I think when it comes down to like, if, so, let's just talk about design first for a second. Like how it looks that's we all know that that's Orman Clark. [00:16:51] I mean, the guy. Seriously brilliant when it comes to sign. So we're only going to push it so far. And then I think it's pretty, like, it's just like unwritten code that like Orman's going to make that decision, but then I think when it comes to like marketing and positioning, I think a lot of people look at me for that, and just, how do we position this business and this product, or. [00:17:10] And so I think it's just, it really falls in more of a skillset, right. Gilbert's CTO when it comes to anything technical related in the product, Gilbert's probably going to have the final say in that. And so, yeah, so that's kinda how we've handled it so far.  [00:17:23] Matt: Yeah. When I, when I did talk to Matt as part of what I was getting at before is I told him that I still think woo commerce is even though it is the giant, it's still a sleeping giant. [00:17:35] Like I don't feel, I don't feel like automatic has really started to tap the potential of, I agree how flexible WooCommerce is going to be. And I think that, you, you said before, this is a SAS first product. We're launching this. I, these are my words, not exactly yours, but we're launching SAS because we can just control it a whole heck of a lot easier than if it was just a pure plugin. [00:17:57] There's was a pure plugin. We get to do the security patches, [00:18:00] the updates, the UI updates, people start falling off. They haven't updated. It's a nightmare when you're trying to make a cohesive experience. And I think no code. Heck even Jetpack is and tools like yours. Aren't going to condition the users over time, where once we really wanted our plugin and own it and have it in our WordPress site to be like ass, screw it, just make it work. [00:18:27] Like it's all a plugin. And I just want access, just give it to me because I think we're all just fed up with it, to that up until this point. I don't know if that's good or bad for the longterm success of WordPress, because that's what us. But your  [00:18:40] JR: thoughts? Well, this is so when I first sat down with the guys and we started talking about lemon squeezy, and this is what we always go back to. [00:18:46] This is like, if this is the punchline, so, and this is going to sound kind of silly, but this is how I literally described to the team. And this is what we, we say. Say, we say, whenever we start talking about the product, we're like space. Space mountain, which sounds weird. Right? So that ride in Disneyland. [00:19:03] So if you were to go to that ride to picture it in your head, you, you walk up, you see the entrance and everything, and you're walking through it. It's really a whole experience from the moment you see it and you walk through it, right? It's all dark. And then you go through the ride and it's pitch black and there's lights, and there's all kinds of things, but you can feel it as you're going through it. [00:19:18] Right. But you don't really know how this is all happening, but think about it for a second. If everybody flipped the light. That'd be rods and wires and it, probably bolts and dust and everything looking at right. And that's kind of the experience today still after all these years, right? It's like, get your hosting, get your domain name, get your plugins, get your you're like putting together all these things with the lights on. [00:19:41] And so in our mind is like easy peasy, lemon, squeezy. Let's just fast forward this thing a little bit and create a space, mountain experience where you just hop on the ride and you're just enjoying the experience. And you're just, you're just there to have fun and have a good time, or you're just there to make money or you're just there to sell this product or this widget or whatever it is you don't have to think. [00:20:00] And so that's kind of how. Are building the product. So I will say from a feature standpoint, we've got a long way to go, right? Like right now you can get on there, you can sell anything, subscriptions memberships. We're also the merchant of record. So you don't even have to worry about setting up payment processors or anything like that. [00:20:17] It's all taken care of. And so I think as we add more features like email marketing and the builder. Themes and stuff like that. I think people are going to really start to be like, oh, wow. Like this is just all here with a click of a button. So  [00:20:31] Matt: you don't have to comment on my crazy conspiracy theory, but I'll ask it and we can cut this guy, a segment out of the show if you want. [00:20:41] I really think. Th this concept the space mountain rides, fantastic metaphor for all of this stuff is also how jet pack is attempting to win in the long run. And I'm of the mindset that I don't know, two years from now, you'll go [00:21:00] to wordpress.org and it'll say, download WordPress with Jeff. [00:21:05] Download free WordPress open source version of WordPress, whatever sounds uglier for you to say, I don't want that. I want this because this is the best way to experience WordPress's with Japan. And I think that that's the, the model that, that Jetpack will ultimately win with as much as we all are like, oh, not on our lawn, this thing here, but I think that that is how WordPress wins. [00:21:32] Are automatic wins in that space. Thoughts on, on that WordPress experience is jet pack in the front row seat for a wind like that.  [00:21:42] JR: Oh man, I have so many thoughts. I mean, I'll say, I'll say a couple of things on it. It's really interesting to think about that from Matt's perspective because Matt always said he wants to get to 50% of the internet uses work. [00:21:58] But I don't know what he's thought of after that. I don't know what happens when he hits that goal. Right? Is he. Does does there's IPO's there's, then what happens like that? What starts to take shape for this business? And so I think me, and you've always seen it from afar, right? You, you look at the way, they kind of their copies changing on jet pack and the way they kind of position the way it should feel like the, like you said, it, like, this is the way you should experience WordPress. [00:22:24] I actually think they say it on the jetpacks website. So I think we've always thought that was going to happen. It's just when and if, and, and I don't know if. If it's going to be triggered more around what happens with Matt and automatic, right. With the IPO or when it hits the 50%, or is he waiting for something like that for, in order to have to do it at that time? [00:22:47] Yeah.  [00:22:48] Matt: A friend of the show, I don't know if you know him, Jordan gall, he started cart hook, and now he's on onto another e-commerce product called rally.io, which is a. I hope I'm getting this right. It's either, either says it's a decoupled or headless e-commerce experience. Okay. He was building a product. [00:23:08] I think it started off as cart abandonment or cart recovery. Hence the cart hook name, built it in Shopify as playground and eventually. What I'll say is crushed by Shopify. He's not a happy camper. Really? Yeah. He's been a lot more vocal about it. There's a great business insider article, which I'll try to remember to link up to it here in the show notes. [00:23:30] And I'm going to have him on the show actually next week to kind of talk about a little bit of that stuff, your thoughts on playing in somebody else's playground. Is that something that ever comes up or you're like, do you look at this as it's? Okay. This is why we're building it as. We start with WordPress. [00:23:44] We build up there, we springboard to full on just come to our website signup.  [00:23:50] JR: Exactly. And even right now, I mean, even before we came into WordPress, right. Lemon squeezy has been live. It's been launched. We have paying customers that are just coming to us from their own ways. [00:24:00] Right. Not WordPress. So we already have that going. [00:24:03] I look at WordPress is like our biggest integration, right. Or biggest extension. And it's been interesting because ever since we've launched the API, we have like, is it stamp, stamp MADEC is that the shoot? I think it's the CMS. There's other people. Are you building plugins around other platforms? So, obviously we've been talking about maybe an integration with or the Shopify has people have wanted to do Shopify plugins for lemon squeezy. [00:24:30] So I think we'll continue down this path. Just as a way for distribution, that's the way I'm looking at it. Not so much a risk to the platform. Cause right now we're like you said, it's SAS and we can kind of control our destiny, which is  [00:24:42] Matt: nice. Just too. Recheck myself, dear listener, it's rally on.com, not rally.io, rally.io, creator coin economy. [00:24:50] A rally on.com is Jordan's next venture. You'll hear him probably coming up on the next episode. Cool. The, the, the future for a WordPress in full site editing. I mean, is this anything that. It comes up on your on your calls at all with the team. Like when you talk about the space mountain ride, like, is this, does this matter to you like full site editing, Gutenberg, Ella mentor, and like this massive whirlwind of stuff happening? [00:25:25] Does it matter to you or  [00:25:26] JR: not? Not so much. Yes. Yes it does. I think that, cause I think the approach we want to take. And this is what I mentioned about the plugin, right? Lemon squeezies plugin today, you can connect your store and then you, you, you really experienced lemon squeezy over lemon squeezy, but then you use your WordPress website to kind of display it, right? [00:25:44] So it's not. We would like to maybe look at bringing some more stuff. So we're not having to force people to come over to us. Right. If they don't want to. And I think that's how we're thinking about it is how do we, do we look at some lemon squeezy powered themes? Probably not. There's an element or ad-ons we've discussed. [00:26:01] So yeah, we're absolutely thinking about how do we make it, but it's more in the sense of like that customer, right? Like, What are they experiencing and how do we make this nice for them? Right. Rather than forcing them to come to lemon squeezy, if they don't want to, that's really how we think about it. [00:26:15] But I think in terms of the plugin to start, I think we're gonna focus more on features that people really want to leverage, like restrict content has. The really exciting one is migration tools for the other popular providers. Those are the things that we're working on now. And then from there, we'll kind of see what the, what people want. [00:26:35] So  [00:26:36] Matt: I don't have any segments on the show, but if I did have one, it might be like, read mean WP Tavern comments, like this read mean tweets like celebrities. Yeah. When this was announced and launched, which was what? Two days ago, right? The 10th.  [00:26:50] JR: Yeah, the plugin. Yeah.  [00:26:51] Matt: How was the reaction good or bad, otherwise, anything surprised you both positively negatively that you'd like to talk about that you saw from [00:27:00] Twitter comments or anything like that? [00:27:02] JR: So it's, it's, it's interesting, right? Because for the most part, I would say it's 99% excitement. Everyone's super excited. Mostly probably because the team, I think they see the team, they're like, oh wow. I had no idea that this is who's behind this. So that's been really cool. And, but there definitely is like coming back into the WordPress space after being here for so long. [00:27:23] And I did take a break for a while coming back into it. I did forget, like, there's definitely people that are. If they don't know us, so they don't know where we come from. Right. There's definitely been like. Well, what is this? And who are these guys and who did, how, how could they possibly think they could do this? [00:27:40] And so there's been a few of those and I just kind of laugh it off, but I think we'll eventually, hopefully win them over. But if not, there's always a Pepsi and a Coke and you know what I mean? And I don't mind being a Pepsi, like if, if there's already a Coke, I have no problem with that. [00:27:54] And so we're just giving people options. So  [00:27:56] Matt: lemon, squeezy.com. I'm looking at the pricing starts at $9 a month. No free.  [00:28:02] JR: Yeah. Yeah. And I can talk about that. Yeah. So we, so we did, we did have a free plan. We did the transaction model where you would pay high transaction fees on a free plan. And it, we had, oh man, like tens of thousands of people literally using the platform. [00:28:18] It was a lot. And so we just, and it's great, but like, you need a ton of volume for that model to really play itself out and time. And so being bootstrapped, it's like, let's just focus on building a product that people want to pay for. Let's make everything SAS. And there was, we had to kind of roll back and there was, there's been a lot of angry people about that. [00:28:39] And so we're trying to find the best pricing. And so this is what's working at the moment. I think, as we add new features, maybe maybe prices go up maybe, and there's a new plan that gets introduced. I don't know. But we're the right now, I think we've found a good price that, because what we did actually is we looked at. [00:28:55] We did look at, if I was going to do a digital download store or sell something digital using WooCommerce or easy digital downloads, we wanted to make lemon squeezy. So not for a race to the bottom, but just, we were trying to be realistic with the features that we do offer right at the moment. And so, so that's kind of where we're settling. [00:29:14] It seems to be working on, like I said, outside of WordPress, we've had plenty of sign-ups and so we're doing well, but I'm really excited to see this get into the WordPress ecosystem and just, just offer something fresh and new and that's that wasn't built, Forever ago. So yeah,  [00:29:32] Matt: $9 a month is still pretty darn affordable. [00:29:35] It's only 90 bucks for the year, sands a transaction fee for selling, which you're going to get no matter where you go. Unless you only accepted check by mail, which you're still going to be paying a fee on that too. Did you find, and again, like with with the prefix, that $9 is still pretty, pretty affordable, did you find a better. [00:29:54] More qualified type of customer from moving away from free. It's always like the most demanding [00:30:00] customers want things for free. And then as soon as they start to pay them, they're a little bit better.  [00:30:04] JR: Yeah. Like, yeah, exactly. And our support totally changed too. Like it was actually just, like a lot of bottom feeding, right. [00:30:11] Kind of things going on. And the support is actually way higher now, but it's really good. Like questions, like people are in a trial or they have questions about this or that, or we're getting way more feedback on the product and like, well, if you guys had this, I would sign up or, you know what I mean? [00:30:26] Like. Yeah, you're right. It's attracted the right people. And then we're, you know what I mean? Like we're, it's like the Henry Ford thing, right? It's like, if I listen to my customer, just build a faster horse, but now I feel like we're listening to the customers that are really willing to pay and they are paying, and it's cool to see. [00:30:42] Yeah, man.  [00:30:42] Matt: I mean, you say that there's not a lot of features or, you feel like you might have not have as many features as the rest. It's. I mean, what you look like, you get a nice feature set here.  [00:30:50] JR: Well, yeah, so I guess so let me actually rephrase that. That's a good. From a, from an e-commerce perspective, selling things. [00:30:57] We, I think we're, we're really good. We do a ton of stuff. And especially for someone that's just like, doesn't want to have to worry about anything with the merchant of record. I think it's like super slick to sign up for lemon squeezy and just, you can just start selling where we're really gonna double down on next. [00:31:14] The editing publishing and editing experience where you can actually have your own storefront and website with themes, Orman Clark and Jason and Mike, they're all going to have some pretty amazing themes that you can be able to use this lemon squeezy. And then Gilbert's been working on a full blown, like e-commerce email marketing e-commerce solution. [00:31:32] So think about filtering and segmentation around your user base. Right? Whether they're. Coming in our landing page subscribing to a newsletter, or if they've purchased a product or multiple products where you're going to be able to filter a segment, send emails, take actions, depending on who they are, what they are, what they bought, so that's the kind of stuff that I think we're moving into next, but you're right from a e-commerce perspective, I think that, you can do pretty much everything except for selling online course at the moment. [00:32:01] Yeah, that's the only real feature left,  [00:32:03] Matt: Semi hot seat question. The usual suspects aside in the software licensing key plugin space software licensing. I don't really see that come up on other e-commerce platforms. So prominently is this the easiest way to kind of break into. What I'll say is the available customer base of WordPress. [00:32:27] JR: Oh, that's funny.  [00:32:28] Matt: Really it could be that I don't, I don't, I'm not looking for software licensing on other platforms, but maybe other platforms are doing it and I just don't see it. I just see this as a very WordPress thing. Ah, you know what? I didn't  [00:32:40] JR: even think about it that way. I think, you know why it's maybe so important to us? [00:32:43] Cause maybe where we come. Maybe, because we are so heavy from the WordPress space. It's like what we're used to, but I will say like people that sell, tailwind components and things like that, they want to, they want to have licensing stuff done. So it's, it's applicable other places, but it's funny you [00:33:00] say it that way, because I guess it could look like. [00:33:02] I think a lot of it was just influenced where we came from. Yeah.  [00:33:05] Matt: So who man, a lemon squeezy.com. Check it out, starting at nine bucks a month. I mean, it looks pretty fantastic to me. Any, I mean, I was about to say any black Friday deals, but how cheaper, cheaper could you get for nine bucks?  [00:33:17] JR: Yeah, I think we're going to avoid it. [00:33:19] Actually. I think we're going to try to, I don't know. Not do that. See how it goes. Cool, man. But  [00:33:26] Matt: yeah. Jr. Far, anything else that you'd like to leave the audience with anywhere they should go to? Oh,  [00:33:33] JR: man. Just, yeah, I really appreciate you bringing them mat. I try to listen to your show and everything that you do. [00:33:40] And I think you're, you're, you're definitely the best at this. So, it's exciting to to, to have to be back in the WordPress space and Be with our community again, and maybe went over a few new hearts that don't know us yet. So, but now thanks again, man. And Yeah, definitely follow along. [00:33:56] Matt: Absolutely everybody else. Everybody listening, check out lemon, squeezy.com, check out everything Jr. And his team are doing. If you want your weekly dose of WordPress news in five minutes or less, go to the WP minute.com. Join the private discord $79 for the year. You get to get your hand in the weekly WordPress news. [00:34:14] Get shout outs, help shape the news part of the team. Hashtag link squad. You know who you are. All right. We'll catch you in the next episode. ★ Support this podcast ★

Now that the WordPress acquisition market has cooled a bit, it's time to stoke the fire on all things Gatsby and JAMStack-y-ness….again. Don't let Full Site Editing steal all of the thunder, there's still so much happening around headless WordPress and the ability to integrate 3rd party APIs to take the place of plugins. Look, I know it's a polarizing thought process to some of us, but if we want WordPress to continue to grow — we need to give it some room for new use cases. I'm joined by Alexandra Spolato to talk about her company GatsbyWPThemes and how this hotness comes with some red hot opportunity. If you're wondering how to make money in the WordPress theme space headed into 2022, look no further than this conversation. Get schooled on the technology and learn how the heck she found her co-founder along with their recipe to success splitting the responsibilities. Episode Transcript [00:00:00] Alexandra: JAMstack is really the new hotness. Now it brings speed, which is an essential law with ACO, with the new Google measures about about some core vetoes for us that now are really essential. So we've we've Gatsby and JAMstack. Really really super fast website. [00:00:20] You check. Pages instant, it's static. brings all sorts of security because your database is not exposed, but have more flexibility great developer experience because now most developer. Learning react, not PHP. So people want to learn. We react. So it brings a lot of advantages. [00:00:42] Matt: This episode of the Matt report is brought to you by foo plug-ins or specifically foo plugins, foo gallery. You can find it@foo.gallery. There's a new pro commerce plan, and it gives you two way integration into WooCommerce. So if you want to sell photos, you can sell photos with foo.gallery and woo commerce. [00:01:04] It makes your job. Super easy, especially if you're a photographer. I just had family photos taken the other day and I looked at the big conglomerate website that my photographer sent me. He said, man, it would look so much better if you. Right through WooCommerce, especially if you use something like foo gallery, check out food, art gallery, and learn more about their pro commerce plan. [00:01:26] Check out their WooCommerce integration. They have a great way to watermark and protect your photo galleries. Check them out and thank them for sponsoring the show. It's food, art gallery go-to food art gallery today. Start selling images with foo gallery and. [00:01:44] Now that the WordPress acquisition market has cooled off a bit. It's time to stoke the fire on all things Gatsby in jams, tackiness. Again. Don't let full site editing, steal all of the thunder. There's still so much happening around headless WordPress and the ability to integrate third party API APIs to take the place of plugins and look.  [00:02:02] I know it's a polarizing thought process to some of us. But if we want WordPress to continue to grow, we need to give it some room for new use cases.  [00:02:11] I'm joined by Alexandra Salado to talk about her company Gatsby WP themes over at Gaspe WP themes. Dot com and how this hotness comes with some red hot opportunity. If you're wondering how to make money in WordPress theme space headed into 2022. Look, no further than this conversation. Get schooled on the technology and learn how the heck she found her co-founder along with the recipe to success, splitting the responsibilities.  [00:02:36] This is the Matt report a podcast for the resilient and business builder i've launched something new you might have heard called the wp minute and you can join us as a member to get into our private discord server and take part in crafting the weekly wordpress news check out buy me a coffee.com/matt report join and thanks to food plugins fu gallery for sponsoring my work here on the mat report and the wp minute okay here's [00:03:00] alexandra's blotto on jamstack and Gasby wordpress themes [00:03:04] Alexandra: JAMstack is really the new hotness. Now it brings speed, which is an essential law with ACO, with the new Google measures about about some core vetoes for us that now are really essential. So we've we've Gatsby and JAMstack. Really really super fast website. [00:03:24] You check. Pages instant, it's static. brings all sorts of security because your database is not exposed, but have more flexibility great developer experience because now most developer. Learning react, not PHP. So people want to learn. We react. So it brings a lot of advantages. [00:03:46] . Then in my dream, Always been to, to make a product in some development, to be honest, I really wanted them to create the way I went into development because I'm a creative person. And when I was in what brands I wanted to do themes, but the market was crowded. [00:04:01] And then I discover, I begin working with react NSC. It was, this is my bad, this is what I want to do. [00:04:07] We need premium themes with nice designs with options. So people. Especially developers or agency can have some things. They can, they, they can reuse pre-made designs, but not only that, because myself, I use my own themes for projects to not reinvent the wheel. I have a developer team that I can modify everything, but it contains another themes that get all the data and all the options and And I work really faster with that. [00:04:39] Matt: Here's what I see. I'm not a developer and the WordPress world is still heavy on the, the development talk, right? [00:04:47] The interest of WordPress is still largely for developers. First and foremost, and I see a lot of people. Hey, this whole like learn JavaScript, deeply thing. Gutenberg, Gatsby. I feel like some people there's a camp of people who are like, oh, that's that's too technical. Like I can't even enter in WordPress anymore. [00:05:08] Because it's no longer just modify some HTML and CSS and know a little bit of PHP lightly. Like that's how I got into the WordPress world. So I could kind of relate with that, but I'm not a developer. So I haven't been practicing this skill for like the last decade. What's your thoughts on somebody from the outside, just getting into WordPress development? [00:05:27] Is it that much of a challenge or if they're starting fresh, you kind of just learn this language and your. [00:05:33] Alexandra: So is that? [00:05:33] different type of developers and What you want to do myself? I'm self-taught then I, when I begin with WordPress, I did have not shaman and CSS. I just began taking themes and playing with them. And. Yeah, the design sense. So deep things begin to work and I begin to learn as GMs, CSS, and begin to, to my themes and, and I love, and I discovered I'm a developer and I love that.[00:06:00]  [00:06:00] So I wanted to go deeper and I wanted more. So I did a JavaScript bootcamp and I react and I, that was that's me. Okay. Now there is a, of a type of developers and there is WordPress implementers. Doesn't that blob, but they do great things to Wednesday address to work different type of clients. I think. So I think there is place and things for really different type of person. [00:06:26] Like there is different type of developers we're in front then backend there's dev ops people [00:06:32] and now we have this possibility of the wing doing jump stack. So no people is a great thing we've worked with.  [00:06:39] It depends on who you are and why you want to go. For me, it has been an opening. Yeah. And now I'm very creating a product in reacting, never expected that 10 years ago. So [00:06:49] Matt: What was the job? You mentioned you, you took a JavaScript course. What was that course for folks who might be interested in it? [00:06:55] Alexandra: it was in Barcelona and it was in Spanish. So it was a bootcamp in russula the Skylab I'm, I'm a, I have to that language one, French one is Spanish. So I speak English as you see, but taking one in Spanish, it was a burden less for me, for my brain learning that, but it was a great one. It was freelance full time, full stack. [00:07:16] So it was react. No, they, everything. And zip center. It was more to find a job. So all of them find a job at the end. So bootcamps are a really great, I think in my case, it was more to have to learn new things, to have more fun, developing and doing new things and flex to that. I'm there. So yeah, some bootcamps are nice. [00:07:38] I think my opinion, it was in person. It was not online.  [00:07:42] Matt: Sure when we had our pre-interview, we talked about this being your very first product, that's not your first foray into a business because you've been running a business. But talk, talk to me about this whole first product thing, any fear around that, and how did you prepare yourself to launch your first. [00:08:00] Alexandra: Oh not fear. No. And I just been. The path it's interesting. It happened what happened, even if it doesn't the work or whatever, I have learned so much at a great time, as I say them are creative. So creating a product is, is great. I am. I had a lot of fun enjoy doing it. I saw I'm very lucky because I didn't want it to do it alone. [00:08:26] When we begin with with Zach, but then I really needed a partner to develop with and I found he spent harm on Twitter. I knew where before from word gap in various she's polished. And she lived in various I contacted her and she was immediately okay. She already had a thin business in forest, but she wanted to do new things. [00:08:47] And especially in JavaScript, she was more with view and she, she learned react with me and she's super talented in design and in coding, in everything. We met at Gatsby days in London when I was doing a talk [00:09:00] and we begin the next day immediately. And it was, yes, a lot of fun. Enjoy Zen. We are not marketers. [00:09:09] So for the lounge to clot off more times than we thought, and when we decide, okay, we are going to launch, then you realize all the little things that you have not done in coding, in documentation, I was taking care of the commercial part, so, okay. For sales first. [00:09:27] we choose a Stripe, but then, oh, okay. [00:09:30] As a reason, all these data protection things and taxis and all, or no, I don't want to deal with legal things.  [00:09:37] So you have all these things to think. And, and before I think before you decide, okay, now we are going to launch you don't think about them. And they said go, oh, there is that. That's not the fun  [00:09:54] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, worry about to sell this thing. And now we have to do support. I forgot about.  [00:10:00] Alexandra: Yes. I also allowed the support, a website with bathroom circles that I think it's also Ballina was responsible of the documentation. And she did an amazing work on that. It was really to document well things. And is there any, so they, we pushed the button, to, to, to, to say. Okay. [00:10:21] Now it's slides a burden. [00:10:23] It was really, really something. And we had no idea our sales going to what was going to happen. But the first day I happened to have the five minutes. So it was really a nicer and I sign  [00:10:36] Matt: talk to me about just picking these tools really quick. I know that I think a lot of WordPress people immediately go to , oh, I'm going to, I'm going to launch a theme or a plug-in business. I'm gonna. Well, what's been in the news recently, easy digital downloads. Maybe they pick woo commerce, the deliver the product. [00:10:53] And then some folks who are like, Hey, I'm going to do support. They might be picking, BB press or they might be doing slack or something like that. You chose two fairly different tools. I love circle. I think it's a fantastic tool. I've never used your merchant before. Why not something that was attached directly to WordPress. [00:11:11] Was there some overhead there that you were like, yeah, I don't even want to deal with that side of it on. [00:11:14] Alexandra: But first I wanted to, to do the sales website. We have the project, with gets you WordPress. So it's not your WordPress where we don't have each other downloads, et cetera. And all the thing that even, I don't know if it's digital downloads take care of the taxis and, and data protection. For me as you think as really a nightmare [00:11:39] is there an about, about the support? I know a lot of people now are on discord or slack and. Slack is nice, but what do you want to make part? If people ask questions, then if you want to retrieve the message for other people, that will be, that can be useful unless the kids have been version. [00:11:58] It doesn't work for me. [00:12:00] Slack works better. For example, I am a team from my agency and then I ask the people on slack. That's different. This is nice on so far for community. But not for support, and when you want to, to have something well done with people can reach into the message, et cetera. [00:12:15] So I searched, there is discourse. That was great. And it's very sort of use that. And I discovered circle because I am, I'm also at both the courses. I hate tomatoes and I love this this courses with Peter. And I think it's really nice. [00:12:32] So I just search for what they need, and so,  [00:12:37] Matt: It's nice to see people in the WordPress space. So I've been talking to a lot more, no code, low code people on this podcast and, circle. Third party merchants, web flow. Like this is what everyone else is using. It's it's only really in the WordPress world where you just find everyone saying, I will not use anything unless it's GPL and I can find it from wordpress.org. [00:12:58] So it's nice to see, tools working really well. And you voting with your dollars because it's common sense. It doesn't have to glue into word press. If it's solving your need it's, it's good. And I just want to highlight that because I think it's, it's sort of understated with a lot of folks these days, or maybe even some folks in the WordPress world are afraid to admit it. [00:13:18] I'm running a discord server for my membership at the WP minute and I'm just like, I love it. It's fantastic. Of course, there's the fear that they get bought up by Microsoft, but you know, I'll deal with that when I get there. How has the marketing gone since it's been, what roughly, well, how many months has it been? [00:13:34] Like five, six  [00:13:35] Alexandra: three months, three months. [00:13:36] we launched every bottle that we launched on the 3rd of June at the beginning of the summer. So we didn't choose this day. We were just ready then, but there'll be less bucket is that's not the best moment for lunch, but whatever.  [00:13:54] Matt: And, and how, and what, what are your plans? Now you, so summertime is famously very low in sales. I mean, just speaking from experience, it's very low in sales. Everyone's out. COVID, I don't know what's happening in your part of the world in America. A lot of people went outside cause it was the summertime and they were ready to ready to go. [00:14:12] And now I, already seeing, even podcast listens are starting to go back up because everyone's like, Hey, summer's done. We're back to work, starting to become a fall, et cetera, et cetera. So anyway, getting to that famously a low season in the summertime. What's your plans now going into sort of October and the holiday season. [00:14:29] Alexandra: Okay though, for us, it was not only is a seminar, but what happens it's and one thing, when you launch a product and you begin, of course, you don't really make enough money to live only on that. So for me, this summer has been super active because I had tons of. Freelance work, and really, really there's been some more heavy peer relationship. [00:14:52] My carrier, it was terrible. So I didn't take holidays or nothing, but we could not really work more on the things, but that's good [00:15:00] because I realized that, okay, that's really. I crave and want to work on, and realize that, okay, it's, that's my baby. I really want to work on that. So now I'm going to really put my, my, my, all my time on that and Paulina too. [00:15:15] So we realized.  [00:15:17] Matt: up the role? How do you split up the responsibilities before you continue? How do you split the responsibilities? Who does, what on the. [00:15:22] Alexandra: Okay. We are both developers and designers . Paulina is is better than me at something sad, debugging and tracking documentation. She's really great developer. And. 100% the proper, and she's designed design to me, I'm a developer, but I also, as a business side I'm more extrovert ones that like yes, to talk to here in podcast she will do blog posts and they will do videos too, to show you the, but the great thing is we agree on most of the things and and we. [00:15:54] It has been a flow since the. [00:15:55] beginning. And I think that's very rare and very precious to to have, so we didn't think it, it just thing has been flowing between us. So now we talk, okay. I do that, that then Yeah. So marketing. Market neither her or neither me. So we have the Bridgette we are, which is, she is great. [00:16:15] And we really love her feeders that somebody was part of the team. She's taking care of Twitter. And I have my life partner, Darko is taking care now of SEO, of main marketing of all that. We are preparing that now, because we realize it's not enough to have a good product. You have to promote, you have to market because. [00:16:41] This is baby doesn't work alone. [00:16:43] Matt: Yeah. [00:16:43] Alexandra: So we, we had a really lot of sales of first month Zan. Yes. [00:16:47] July, August. And as you say, yes, summer is really calm, even in the tweaking, the matching subscription it began to get accepted. At first is really dead. So yes, we have already things to do, do a, we are planning to do also webinars making these team and make some tutorials to meet. [00:17:08] Matt: W I think one of the hot trends now besides getting acquired from, from like hosting companies. Cause it seems like all these plugging companies here now are just getting acquired by bigger players is as knocking on the door of like, a hosting company maybe like a strata WP who focuses on like headless WordPress or static WordPress, stuff like that. [00:17:31] What about that route? Have you been thinking about, maybe I can do. Even like this free theme as a framework. I know some people don't like that word, but bring it in as a framework to a hosting company, be like, Hey, partner up with us, include this as part of your suite of services for your hosting company or for your hosting customers. [00:17:50] And then, oh, by the way, just let them know that we have a pro version if they, if they want something else. Is that, is that something that is maybe too far off or like not on the radar yet? Or is that  [00:17:59] Alexandra: [00:18:00] Oh, [00:18:00] Matt: want to. [00:18:02] Alexandra: I have not think about it, but it can be an idea. you you'll give me ideas. I'm very close from WP and gene because of course , that was at Gatsby. Karen Mason I'm, I'm, I'm really close to them towards the folks that work there. I was thinking, I was thinking. I was very inspired by by Genesis and studio press, but the way of doing things. [00:18:27] And I think the people that can use it, it's, people's that want quality. We want things that don't do, it's not a multi popper films. I can Tim forest, not as I do one things they do well. And we have themes for everything and also. This is the type of people that use it. They're like even if they don't 3d codes, they like to. [00:18:52] enter in code and, and modify things themselves. [00:18:56] So, for me, it's a, it's a great great model. And I was working with Genesis when I was in WordPress. I was I was a Genesis developer too. So, and so and WP engine as all noses to your breasts themes that Brian Gardner now is that WP engine two. So I don't know if say I, if there is ideas that come, why not now we are beginning. [00:19:18] So we will see. Yes, everything is open. [00:19:22] Matt: So we've talked a lot about like how to develop these themes or like how you thought about the development of it and like Gatsby and JavaScript and all the stuff in the WordPress world when it comes to marketing, understanding who your customer is, is one of the most critical pieces. You've mentioned like Genesis and studio. [00:19:41] That crowd of users, they were all fairly technical. Cause you're doing like hooks and actions, filters, like all these things. And you're always like modifying the functions, PHP file. They w you know, people who were born from those days and that. We're not the people who like guts started using Elementor where all it was, was like a drag and drop interface. [00:19:59] Have you started to really think critically about who your customer is? Is it more technical? Is it more of like an agency that would be purchasing your product and not, sort of somebody who wants to launch a pizza shop website and they're just like, give me Gatsby. Like, they wouldn't even know how to do this yet. [00:20:17] Have you. [00:20:17] Alexandra: Yes, yes, no, I really think it's. More for professionals. I don't say that the professional can advise you to know that they've of people that we wanted. We'd be more an agency, a developer that want to, to enjoys a mix of WordPress where we've we've to It's not, yes. The person, I think who launches pizza, burbs even on know about Gatsby. [00:20:45] So, so yes, and Zay they'll have to be super technical because if you follow our recommendation, you don't need to know coding, but you need to use a console. You need to install, know the [00:21:00] gaps between style, get two of your score to settle, get, and everything is explained. [00:21:06] Every beat of things you Have Right into Consolo into editorial. You it's to be based. So that's why they think of what people of Genesis that and a about three Dar website with all these tutorial or you. [00:21:20] notice recipes. I think this type of people will love to work this way. And it's not code because you don't need to call, but you need to do the things that can afraid some other type of things.  [00:21:34] And then more technical people of course will do much more things than what they have no dice into support of the client. We have. There is people that are already technical and that technical questions at that come here.  [00:21:50] Matt: One of the, I can't remember because time is so elusive these days. I don't know where times time span was, but famously I think like a year ago Matt Mullenweg. Sort of had like a little open dialogue with one of  [00:22:07] Alexandra: bill, man, from from from Netlify.  [00:22:10] Matt: right and about like this whole, like JAMstack versus WordPress, people like people still struggle to get the average person still struggles to get WordPress up and running. Even if they have like a one-click button in their hosting panel, they still are challenged with that. JAMstack is still going through. [00:22:28] A hundred times more challenging. Like if you ask the normal person to do the console stuff and even maybe some power users, they might struggle with that. Do you see the JAMstack world getting a, getting easier from your point of view? Like, are they making it a little bit easier for folks or look, these are just the things we have to put up with to, to boot up against. [00:22:50] Alexandra: I remember I was talking for people from the Gatsby team and they say, yeah, Is there is a lot of things, that are seemed out there. He seems very struggling, but they I've been observing WordPress. [00:23:03] So it's a good thing. So I think it will take time, but yes, I think it will become JAMstack it's really takings a web, so it would become easier, but it's into their proper things. So. And I think people like me, we develop the themes and that will grow and it will be other people's that will develop morphemes and weave ideas to make it simpler. [00:23:31] And Gatsby will also make things to integrate better with a CMS like WordPress. I think that will come. Yes, honestly, but.  [00:23:41] Matt: When you say JAMstack is, is sort of, winning the web or taking over the web, is there a particular, is it because developers are liking that sort of approach better? Or is there something really powerful for the end user? That like the visitor of the website, the buyer of the product who is in an [00:24:00] e-commerce site or something like that. [00:24:01] Is there something consumer facing that is a real advantage in that? [00:24:07] Alexandra: Yes, it's both. I think, yes. Developers love it, but user, just for example, now I have a. A client. Now we are building a huge website about traveling to know a sort of travel advisor. We are featuring five custom post type featuring that? [00:24:21] People will make a search and they get fitter. We, for many, many criteria's Yeah. For a lot of images. And he didn't know about WordPress. He didn't know about about JAMstack and. I explained him how it goes. He said, oh my God said, solve all my problems. Speed security. Although then, and even if somebody is not technical, show them a Gatsby, your next website and shows the speed and change page is just instantaneous. [00:24:51] And then explain them. The security's improved because we were static website, a hacker jet, and just the face, your website. He will not touch it at the base. And even if your WordPress is down, your city is up, you will not be down if it's static. Then yes. And the speed for SEO. It's crazy. that's super important now and to flexibility. [00:25:14] So you can you can have your content also marketing page, the blog from WordPress, but perhaps you prefer having a Shopify. Oh, big commerce. Even if we have a will covers, so you can have your shop on Shopify you can have some data in a, in a Google sheets and things that come from other API and all that in a consistent theme, in one website. [00:25:43] Matt: Yeah. That's, that's the exciting part. That's what like the whole, the whole like WordPress crashing, but my website still being up, like, that's all you need to tell  [00:25:52] Alexandra: Yes. Okay.  [00:25:54] Matt: I like perfect. That's exactly what a. [00:25:57] Alexandra: Yes. You can crush a WordPress. You can destroy your WordPress and in your files, you're sitting there.  [00:26:04] Matt: All right. So for the listener today, if, if they want to get started with, with Gatsby or with your theme, it's Gatsby, WP themes.com, Gatsby, WP themes.com, go and visit that site. Anything else they should prepare before they had purchased? Like what should they have? Should they have a special hosting account before? [00:26:22] Alexandra: Yes, we have interns on the dock. There is a link, I think, I think, yes. What you should do prepare your computer because he has one of our fears, but it didn't happen. It's they need to [00:26:40] they need to prepare their computer. And nobody has a problem with that and different on mark and on windows. Everything is under the Gatsby, the commendation. So we explain it on our documentation and we link it to get me. So is that. They can do that before buying, because somebody was [00:27:00] suddenly is going to have, oh, is that too complicated for me? [00:27:02] It will not be good. So after that, yes, I can. And then just, they can read the documentation and we are going to Vince is three themes, so they can play with that. It will have nods options, nods comments not also fancy things, but it would be totally, totally usable where they want it to say.  [00:27:28] Matt: Bye. Bye bye. Go buy the theme  [00:27:30] Alexandra: Yes. Exactly. Exactly.  [00:27:33] Matt: WP themes. Calm Alexandra, where else can folks say thanks on the web,  [00:27:40] Alexandra: to say thanks? Oh my yes, we have a Twitter. It's art. WP [00:27:53] Matt: we will link it up in the show notes. We'll have a link. [00:27:58] Alexandra: that's, that's better ESN visits. We have the support website we've circle, which is nice as I can say, can subscribe that and subscribed as a website because this is where we are going to send a free team and also goodies, and also in our newsletter. Now we are going to begin also to inform people about things about JAMstack. [00:28:21] For example, now we have the. Just get to be camp just happen and say announced gods before, which will have SSL, server-side rendering and many things. And of course, as soon as it's stable, we will implement it in, in our themes. [00:28:40] Matt: I love me some server side rendering. Tell ya. I don't know what it does, but it sounds powerful and it sounds fast. And that's what I like. Gatsby WP themes.com. Alexandra. Thanks for doing the show today. Everyone else has report.com. Matt report.com/subscribe. Join the mailing list. Don't forget to support the show by heading on over to buy me a coffee.com/matt report. [00:29:01] Buy me a coffee.com/maryport report. That's where you can get connected to our membership powered discord. I love it. You want to be part of the weekly news, check it out. Buy me coffee.com/matt report. All right, everybody. Thanks for listening. We'll see. In the next episode. ★ Support this podcast ★

Friend breakups are just as painful as romantic break-ups. We have some strategies and stories to share that will have you feeling better. The Break-Up [00:00:00] Fawn: Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Good. All everything. Hi everybody. Hey, I don't know if it's the subject matter today, but I'm in a mood right now. [00:00:13] Matt: Sounds like I'm going to be tapping today. You know [00:00:17] Fawn: what? I don't think. I think no matter what you do right now, it's going to get all my last nerves. [00:00:23] Matt: So if I'm quiet, I'm in trouble. If I talk in trouble. Oh yeah. [00:00:27] Fawn: Everything. Everything is bothering me right now. Um, love LOVE IS WINNING. Um, it's the inner fight within that says I am done. And the other side of you you that is used to this situation or person to the point that stopping is like cutting off a vital part of life. This makes no sense to you cause you have no idea what I'm about to discuss today, right, Matt? [00:00:59] Matt: Well, [00:01:00] I, I guess we'll see, [00:01:02] Fawn: it's kind of like, what I'm about to talk about is kind of. And not kind of, but to me, what I've noticed is actually like a chemical addiction. Uh, today's topic is, are you ready? Matt has no idea. The breakup. [00:01:25] Matt: Yeah. Raise your hand if you've been through a breakup and that your hand, if you went well [00:01:29] Fawn: now, well, I raising my hand. I had one that finally went well and I use it as an nugget of wisdom from Santa Monica. And I'm not talking about like romantic breakup per se. I'm talking about break up in general, breaking up with a friend it is so hard and you think, oh, well it's just a friend, but oh my God, it is incredibly painful. Horrible. So I have some ways that will help with that [00:02:00] pain because breakup looking at the etymology of it, it's a disruption; disillusion of connection; separation into

Allen: All right, everybody. Welcome to another edition of the Option Genius Podcast today I have with me, Matthew D'Ambrosi .He's one of our passive traders. And he's gonna be telling us how he got started and how he's doing pretty well right now. How are you doing, Matthew? Matt: I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on. Allen: Cool. Cool. So how'd you get started with Option Genius?  Matt: Well, I have to actually go back, it's been quite a journey, I have to say, you know, it's more like a 15 year journey for me. Allen: Wow. You know, I was given a book by my sister at age 30. And I was a young guy, and I was just more not interested in reading books just kind of floating through life, didn't really have much direction. And the book was called "Automatic Millionaire" by David Bach. Allen: Okay. Matt: In that book, I wasn't really interested in reading it, but she handed it to me. So I said, at least go through it. And I started thumbing through and I came upon a compound interest chart. And it showed, you know, you're 19 years old, and you put $2,000 into an IRA, or Roth IRA, and you did that, and you continue to do that, it would be well over a million by the time you're 65. So I was caught immediately by that. And that's kind of where my journey began. So I took that information, and started reading more books. And I came across Dave Ramsey. He's kind of like a financial soldier, if you will, you know, to get out of debt. Yeah, kind of get your stuff together. And I started, I always thought about making money and you know, retiring early, it was always a thought of mine, it was a gold mine, it was definitely what I wanted to do. And I always felt like 65 is when I would do it just like everybody else. And I continue to read more, I read numerous articles and books. And about two years ago, I went to a workshop, and I was learning how to invest. And they introduced me to options and selling options. And I was told that everyone else was told, you know, it was risky. Don't touch it. There's a whole another world to me. Allen: Have you done any stocks or options before that? Matt: No, absolutely not. Allen: No stocks either? Matt: Not really, you know, I was more into mutual funds, I had gave my money to an advisor, I just believe that people had your best interest. And they're great advisors out there. I'm not saying they're not. But it really started me to take a hard look about how money is handled. And you're much better off if you take the plunge and believe in yourself and start looking into deeper and see that they can really work out for you if you're willing to take or have the interest really to go and look at that. So I started paper trading. And then I was wondering who else does this so I started searching. And then I came across your name, and I have to hand it to your master marketer. I've never had anyone hit my inbox like you. So I started listening to all your podcast, taking little by little, you know, all the information that you give out there and started little by little paper trading. And then I started making money slowly, you know, doing one contract, then adding two. And then now I'm pretty much on my goal to replace my income. And that's my ultimate goal so... Allen: Awesome. Matt: Just a regular guy, you know, I just kind of happy to be here. I'm really happy to be here today. Because I want to get the message out that you know, you're teaching just normal people like me, who have no experience at this. And it's really a wonderful thing if you're willing to get a hold of your fears and take a stab at it. Allen: Right. So you started about two years ago, you said? Matt: Yeah, about two years ago yeah. Allen: Oh two years ago. Okay. And you're still working? Matt: I am, yep. Allen: Okay, what do you do during the day? Matt: So I'm a forklift driver and it's tough work. It's very laborsome. And trading has allowed me to look at money in a different way. I just don't look at money as scarce as it was. So it's a whole different mindset. Allen: Yeah. So how do you find time during the day to trade? Matt: Generally I don't go until about 2:30 in the afternoon, and I go on to 2:30 at work so I spend the mornings pretty much studying and paper trading and learning and then even after work at 11 o'clock, sometimes I'll be up till 1am or so learning as well and paper trading and trying to think about things and whatnot so.. Allen: So you're all in? Matt: All in, absolutely. They say burn the ships and I burnt them. Allen: So what was your first trade? Matt: First trade I did was credit spread. I did far away from the money for about just one contract and I made like 18 bucks. It wasn't much but you know, you're, you talked about the options continuum. That was in that stage where I was very nervous and you know, you have these feelings and you feel like you're gonna lose all your money. And that's not true, if you study and really take what you have to teach, and I took it very slow and got into it. So after that, after you do, there's something about to do first live trade, it kind of clicks with you like, okay, that wasn't so bad, you know, not the think of the worst that can happen. So, yeah, I did it. And it's been a, you know, I'm gaining confidence each and every week. And, yeah, we just continue to evolve on that continuum. Allen: Cool. So if I can recap. So basically, you want to get into investing because you didn't like where it was going. And you didn't want to wait around till 65 to, you know, have a nest egg and retire and have somebody else in charge of your money. So you started looking at it for yourself, and you've been putting in time you've been studying, researching trading, paper trading? What else is it that you want to achieve, besides just the money aspect? Like what what is it about the trading that is, you know, speaks to you on a deeper level? Matt: Yeah, I think the main part and it's different for everybody, for me, it's actually you know, as you get older, you realize you don't know how much time you have on this earth. And, you know, you start looking at things like, Hey, you know, the time is right now. And if I can find a way to free up some time, I'm going to seize it, because I never want to look back and say, "Hey, you know, I got to 65" I'd be glad if I do. But to spend time with friends and family, I got, you know, parents are almost in their 80s, I would love to just free up just a little bit of time and already am and I'm already you know, I already feel successful. And that, you know, I found something that I can do and free some time up and actually see them. Allen: Okay. So when you say you feel successful, what does that mean in numbers? Matt: Numbers to me, it's like just even $500. And it's different for everybody. There's no doubt. I mean, $500 extra dollars a month is successful to me. It gives you just a little bit of breathing room. I'm a simple person, I don't need a lot. I drive a 2200 accord. I mean, it looks like it's gonna fall off the road. I'm not a man to really, you know, I love great things. I would love to get in a nice, wonderful car, but it's not the main driver for me. The main drivers just to spend quality time family and friends. Absolutely. Allen: Nice. Nice. Okay. So would you mind sharing how large your trading account is now? Matt: Yeah, I started with in the brokerage account, I started about 2 Grand, and I'm already up to about 16 right now. Allen: Wow, in two years? Yeah, that's phenomenal. Matt: Yeah, I mean, I'm also adding to it too, but.. Allen: Okay. Matt: It's amazing to see the compound interest grow. And I haven't been really calculating it like dollar for dollar. But I'm just more really tuned into just being successful and working through the trades. And not really focusing so much on, you know, $1 amount just being, "Hey, let me get this tray. Let me monitor it. Let me look at it. Let me learn from it". If I have any problems, if I look at it as a learning experience, I have to continue to go I want to be in it forever. You know, I want to continue to I want to be that guy standing, you know, 10 years, 15 years from now and still doing this. Allen: Okay, so you don't want to be a forklift driver anymore? Matt: No, I say, you know, I'm sure there are a lot of people who listen to podcast saying I hate my job. I do not I actually enjoy driving a forklift. I just don't want to drive 40 hours a week. Allen: Okay. Okay, so what type of strategies are you using? Matt: So right now I'm doing a lot of bull put spreads, I've ventured into bear call spreads. I'm also doing covered calls. I haven't done any naked puts yet. So I'm really kind of looking at some companies and, uh, you know, I want to know more about the companies and look at stable companies like you teach us and start doing options off of them. So, it's an ongoing process and what amazes me that you don't need to do a lot of different strategies to be successful. Allen: Right, right. Right. Okay. What's your if you had to only pick one, which was your favorite? Matt: At the moment, it'd be a bull put spread, but I have a feeling that's gonna change. Allen: Yeah depending on the market. Matt: Also venturing into into oil, like you're teaching in your program. Allen: Cool. Yeah. Welcome to that program. Yeah, it's definitely it's definitely the next level of stuff. You know, it moves faster, and it's more leverage. So the numbers are bigger. Matt: Yeah. Allen: Cool. So have you tried anything else that didn't work? Matt: You know, I've done about 60 trades so far. I've lost one. And I got out early, it would have worked out. And it was my first time losing money, but I look at as a big lesson. You know, there's a lot of feelings. I listened to one of your podcasts where you talked about how you lost and the feelings that surround that. Right. I think you have to kind of reevaluate and find the lesson in it. And the lesson I found in that trade was that I was trading too heavy. I was a little bit. I was actually doing too many contracts. I was a little bit too uncomfortable. Matt: So that it was is a really good learning experience to say, Hey, you know, I'm not really comfortable risking that much money. Let me just pare it back a little bit. And think about what I want to do here, so.. okay, that, you know, the experience of actually getting out of a trade out of our live trade because you know, your bloods pumping, and you're like, Okay, you know, am I hitting the right buttons? And I get now it's a little different than paper? Of course. Allen: For sure. Yeah. But did you say you did 60 trades and you only lost on one? Matt: Yes so far... Allen: And these are all real money? Matt: Real Money, yes. Allen: Wow. And what's your strategy? How are you doing that? Would you find that trading plan? That's amazing. Matt: You know, it's a lot of listening. I've read so many books, listen to podcasts, listening to education, I kind of go, I'm a very conservative person. So I trade very conservatively. So about 90% out or more, I try to get at least 23 cents, 22 cents, and then just move my contracts up as I feel comfortable taking that risk. Allen: Okay so if I heard you correctly, you are trading at about a 10 delta spread? Matt: Yeah, usually. Allen: And then you're trying to make about 5% on each trade? Matt: Yeah, but between four and 5% Allen: Between four or five? And how long do you stay in the trade? Matt: You know, it's almost embarrassing, but that's the level of how you get better. I really have my you know, you talk about your AHA moments, and one of them was mine. I didn't know you could get out of the trade. So I was always thinking you had to be there until expiration, but that's not obviously not true. So that was a big one. For me, I have to honestly say that, you know, when you're learning this, you just don't think of you don't know everything. Right? And I was like, oh, my goodness, you can actually get out of these trades. So I learned to get out. So you know, that's a benefit in my world, once you know how to get out, it takes a little bit of fear out. Allen: So when do you get in? How many days to expiration to get in? Matt: Generally, I'm between 28 and 35 days or so. Allen: Okay, and what how many trades at one time do you have on? Matt: I really try to do only as many as I can comfortably watch. I try to do maybe one a week. So about four trades at most that are going on? Allen: Okay, so four trades at one time. Okay. And so how much would you say you're making on a monthly basis? dollar terms? Matt: Well across two accounts. So I trade in my brokerage account, I trade under my IRA, I rockler. Right? I'm averaging about 1000 a week now? Allen: 1000 a week. Okay. That's amazing. So within two years, you're up to 4000 a month. And you're saying your account value is roughly around 16? Matt: Roughly 16. And then, you know, in the Roth IRA, it's considerably higher, but that's not money I really want to put a heavy risk of short term trading, but I do trade there. Allen: Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. No, that's, that's crazy. And you're saying that you're almost to the point where it's getting close to where it's gonna replace your income or equal your income from..  Matt: Yeah I mean, I have no qualms about it. I my goal is to get make $5600 a month. And I know my number and but it's all about, you know, I guess one of the big reasons for me coming on is that you just have to trust the process. And you have to actually become in love with the process not be so result driven. I mean, it's important, you know, we all want results. But if you can find a love for the process, I think you're that much better?  Allen: For sure. Definitely. Yeah. Because, you know, like you said, You've been putting in the time you wake up and you work on it. And then after work, you know, tired long day, but you still sometimes you still get it and to look at it being you wouldn't do it if you weren't like happy and excited. It's really something to find something. I feel like this is a point in my life where I really found something I love to do. And I really do. I really love this. And, you know, it's, I just want other people that are just regular people like me, and people come all the time and say, you know, you can do this and do that. But I am I tell you to my core, I'm just a regular person, I drive a forklift. And if anyone can do it, you can do it. And thank God, there are people like you have to teach this stuff. Because I would have killed 20 years ago to have someone guide me through just hitting me across the head of the board and be like, Hey, you know, listen. But that's not how life works. Allen: Right, no, yeah. You know, when you're ready, the teacher appears kind of thing. You know? Matt: It really is true. Allen: Yeah. Yeah. So the biggest thing that surprised you when you were doing this stuff, besides that you could get out before expiration? Matt: Oh, yeah, that was a big one. I think it's coupled with what other people say but also with what I think is that you can trade on something that you don't own. I think that's a big thing for people. Because we're just conditioned to be like, you know, if I can trade something, I have to own it. And that was a big like, wow, for me, for trading. You know, also the covered call as well. Allen: Okay. And so what was your biggest challenge? Matt: The biggest challenge for me was overcoming your fears. I mean, it's, it's definitely a big fear. And I don't take it lightly. Because, you know, we all worry about losing our money, we worked so hard for it. I mean, I work 40 hours a week just to make the bills and do everything that we want to do, we want a better standard of living. And it's very scary  you know, you can think about losing all that money and a flash, and that's really fearful. And I think that's the biggest obstacle, but be to be able to papertrade it and learn from people like yourself that have gone through it. And like, they say, taken the arrows is all much better. I mean, you know, it's like, I talk to people, it's like, you're in a forest, and you don't know which way to go. And it's like, you have someone like yourself or someone else that has gone through this. And we're like, Hey, here's the path. You know, over here is a ditch over here, you know, there's a lion, go down this path, and you start to understand otherwise, you're just flailing around, and you'll be lost in that forest forever. So, you know, it's just one big journey, to be honest with you. Allen: Yep. Yep, yep. Yep. So is that the biggest thing that helped you overcome the fear? Got me a lot of people have that fear. You know, it's like, oh, my God, if I do this, what's going to happen? What if I press the wrong button? What if they take this away? What if you know, something, I do something wrong, my wife's gonna kill me, you know, how did you besides the paper trading was that the biggest thing that helped you overcome the fear? Matt: I think also, the actual structure of a credit spread, you know, knowing that when I have a set amount of money, that it's risk, I can only lose like, $500 in a trade or 480. That really helped me, okay, I was like, Okay, if you're uncomfortable, overall, losing $480 in this trade completely fails. And that's all I'm gonna lose. And I wrapped my head around that, then I can get past that barrier. And I can trade more and learn how to trade. I think initially, you just have in your mind that you're gonna lose all your money, which is not true. If you, of course, you I mean, you have to study and you have to pay attention. None of this is easy or simple. But you got to put in the time, I'm not saying you don't. But if you really want to, and you're, you have conviction, and you have desire, there's no reason why you can't do this stuff. Allen: So what do you think the future holds for you now? Matt: Well, I hope all good things. I mean, I go on with the, I hope I go in with the attitude. I'm really happy and excited to be part of the the oil, that's a whole another, the oil blank check trading program. It's a whole another world for me. And, you know, I kind of feel like, it's traded like options, but it's very different. And then I have to get in there. And it's like, you know, I'm back at the beginning a little bit. So I got to get him up to speed and learn that it's a whole another world. So you go through those feelings again, in a different way. So I'm kind of in the beginning, but I'm very hopeful for the future. And I just want to continue to be consistent and profitable. And that's all you can ask for. Allen: Yep. Yep. So would you recommend Option Genius to other people? Matt: Absolutely. I mean, I sing your praises almost all the time. I one of the big reasons is that how accessible you are. And you know, whenever I had a question, you guys are on top of it. I mean, I couldn't ask for any quicker response. And if you have a problem, you feel like someone's right beside you. And I really appreciate that. So yeah, I've absolutely, I would tell anyone to go to you and learn from you learn from you on the program.  Allen: Yeah, we try. I mean, we're not perfect. And we don't work weekends. But some people, some people are like, Oh, I bought this thing on Saturday. Why haven't I got it yet? I have questions. I'm like, Oh, we don't work weekends, you know. See that's part of the job here. You know, I talked about it on the podcast, and the books and everything. It's like freedom. You know, that's the ultimate, the ultimate goal is freedom. And however you define it, yeah, the time to do what you want the money to do what you want, and you just, you know, if you want to go here, do this, or whatever, buy whatever you want. Like, I'm so happy and excited that you're feeling a taste of that, you know, it's like, "Okay, if I'm going to work, I'm going to make X dollars, but I can always be laid off". I can always get hurt. I can always, you know, get sick. I mean, so many people right now are getting sick and they can't work and they're all scared because they don't know what they're going to do. And you know, the fact that you're you found something that you can stay at home, press a few buttons, and you understand it and you're like, Okay, intellectually, I can make this work. And you put in the time in the effort. I've seen that. So kudos to you for that. Because I've seen a lot of people. They're like, Oh, yeah, no, no, this is supposed to be magic. I'm supposed to hit the Escape key and I'm supposed to get money coming out of my computer. Well, it doesn't work that way. You know, you have to put in time, effort, thought process. You have to do it over and over and over again, which you've done for the last two years. You've been putting your dues in I mean, obviously you're not done yet. Right? You still got a long way to go. Matt: Oh, yeah, absolutely my goal is never to be complacent. You know, never think I've no at all, because I do not. There's people out there that are very smart, intelligent, people that are learning, I always look at life, you can learn somebody, something from everyone, just like all the people, all the books that I've read, if you can get one good thing out of them, you can learn something from them, you're all the better. You know, I just learned to not look at one thing as the way there could be multiple ways. But you know, you have to take the good and almost make it your own as well. You know it, but it's on you. And you as you get older, you realize that it is on you to make this decisions. I don't want to bury my head in the sand and just hope you know, I wake up at 65 and I'm retired. So it's a process. And luckily, I fell in love with it. Allen: That's great. That's great. So let's say you get your goal and you're making 5600 a month from your trading. You still going to work? Matt: I think initially I mean, you know, it's a wonderful question to answer. I think initially, I would go with part time, because I like I do like my job. I do enjoy driving a forklift. But um, it would allow me to do some other things that I would want to do in life. I mean, I like gardening, I like painting, maybe learn Spanish, I always want to learn Spanish, you know, and I could put my efforts towards that. It's just, it opens a whole another world for you. And I mean, it really does. And it gives you a chance to maybe go into some things that you never dreamed that you would be. For instance, after this, I'm going on a boat, I would never dream that I would learn, I always didn't want to drive a boat, I was afraid to drive a boat, I was afraid I was gonna to crash into a dock. But I'm a member of a book club now. And I'm going to go out my wife after this podcast and get on a boat. And I'm learning how to drive and docket and it's like I believe trading is broad and open that world for me. Because I'm no longer fearful making mistakes. And I'm going to learn from them. And, you know, if I crashed into into a dock, so be it. I'll learn from it. And I'll get better. So that's the way I approach life now. And I think trading is a big part of that. Allen: Oh, that's wonderful. So the fact that you've been you've had some success in the trading has given you confidence in other areas of your life. Matt: Absolutely. That's something I can ever believe. Yeah, absolutely. Allen: That's so beautiful. Okay, so let's say one of your fellow employees at Costco, you're at Costco, right? Yes, yeah. So if one of your fellow employees at Costco comes up to you and says, Matt, man, I got to do something. You know, you told me you talked about trading a little bit, how do I how do I get started? What do I do? How do I make sure that I don't lose money? Matt: Well, go to Option Genius. But I would more so I would tell them that, you know, it's a process and you have to put in the work. There's no shortcuts. And you know, people say that all the time. And you have to really believe that in your heart, and you have to put in the work. And thank goodness paper trades out there. And you can make mistakes and learn from them. And just keep trying. And then when you're ready, do it. Somy advice is to absolutely take it slow. You know, everyone's different. You could paper trade three months, six months, but don't be hanging up for a year paper trading. I mean, you want to get out there and try. So but do it with a little bit of money that you're finally losing, and then just go on from there and reevaluate your process. So that's the advice that I would give them. And, of course, I want to help everyone out there, you know, because I have co workers that are in the same, I know the grind they go through each day. They're hard working people, they're looking for the same thing I am that they're trying to look, you know, to better their life or help people that are left to right of them, and get through and improve it. And, you know, this is out there for them. So I've just tell it, take it slow, be patient. I mean, it's very difficult to be patient, especially this day and age. But if you can harness that patience, you can achieve what you want to achieve. Allen: Well said, Well said. Yeah, I mean, you know, the cool thing is that we've I guess since you started, I think you've been sending us emails every once in a while. Matt: Probably a little crazy. Yes. Allen: Yeah no it's okay. It's not crazy? I mean, you know, I bombard people with email, we generally like to sometimes people, some people get three emails a day from us, it's like crazy. We need to work on that. Matt: I'm one of those people. And I'm like, wow, I'm like, man this is something else. Allen: There's too much going on. Yeah. So we need to work on a little bit there. But you know, so it's been fun to watch your progress over the past. You know, it's like, I try to if there's a trading email or whatnot, I try to read those. And if I don't answer them, at least I try to read and see what's going on. And I've seen your emails come through, and it's like, you know, this guy, he's getting it, you know? And whenever you ask a question, it's like, there there are some people that they're nice about it. And then there are some people who are like they expect the moon and the stars and everything in an email like, "Hey, I'm on your list. I want you to tell me every one of your secrets". Like how am I supposed to do that in an email? Matt: Yeah that's impossible. Allen: We share that for you. Like we could have a course about that. It would be like a 20 million-hour course. I could share everything and bring an email. I'm not writing all that stuff. But the fact that you took it slow and methodical and whenever you, you did the work. And then when you had a question, it was specific to that particular thing. So you could tell when I'm reading, I can tell, okay, this guy is actually trying to learn, he's actually trying to trade. And this has given me a question based on his actual experience. So I mean, that's in, you know, for those of you who are listening and be like, Oh, well, I asked a question, I didn't get an answer. Or, you know, he didn't give me a complete answer or whatever. It also depends on, you know, how you approach the question how the question is asked, and if it's gonna make sense or not, because we do get inundated with trading questions, and how do I do this? And how do I do that? And without proper background, we can't even give individual moves. Legally, we can't give individual advice. But even trading questions, it's like, okay, if I don't have the proper background into what you were thinking, when you were looking at a trade, then I can't give you a, you know, what I would do even because if I'm looking at a chart, and I think it's going to go down, and you think it's gonna go up, whatever I tell you, it's gonna be the opposite. And you'll be like, that doesn't make any sense. So I love the way that you have approached this. And you've been, you know, slowly, methodically, you pick something you realized from the beginning, you knew what you want it, you knew your why you understand, you know, compound interest, you understand how that works? And it's not going to happen overnight. How long do you think it took you until you started becoming like, consistently profitable? Matt: I would say about three or four months where I felt consistent, you know, first, you know, you could say, Oh, you know, it could be you just not, you're not sure until you really feel like, okay, I can repeat this month after month. And third kind of understanding, you know, not only the positives of a trade, but also the negatives, and you start kind of wrapping your head around it and start feeling comfortable, but not complacent, then you start, you feel like you're on the right road, so that that feelings and the results probably about three to four months for me specifically where I felt confident about the trade. Allen: Okay, and you trade the same stocks over and over again? Or do you choose different ones every time? Matt: I'm looking, you know, basically the same. You know, I tell the story, way back, I bought Airbnb, you know, an IPO, which stands for is probably overpriced. And I consider it as a mistake. But my wife and I did a covered call together, and we literally push the button together. And we're like, we made like, 500 some dollars off of that. And I was just like, we were just like, baffled, like, wait a minute that actually work. Like we just got paid for that. And we're just like, How can that be? So, you know, I read books on covered calls and things like that. And, you know, there's there's downfalls of covered calls as well, the dark side as you speak. And it's important to, to learn all the different strategies. But the point is, you don't need to know a ton of strategies to be successful, I think it's important for the viewer to focus on one and get really comfortable before you move on to other things. And I feel that's kind of where I am with oil now I'm comfortable with a trade and now unwilling to go into another world, and kind of explain that or, you know, explore that, and I'll take that slow as well. And, you know, it just starts being well, and overall process and you bring it together. And it's all about learning and what a beautiful thing. Allen: Yep. Yep. Very beautiful. So, and there might be some skeptics listening to this. And they'll be like, Well, you know, the last two years, we've had a really good bull market. So are you prepared for choppy market volatile market? down market? bear market? How would you adjust to that situation? Allen: You know, I think it's, I look back, I'm actually reading your book right now, how to hedge, you know, all the hedging strategies, and what I always call my replay in my mind, what will I do if there's a big crash, and I don't think you can ever, you know, fully prepare yourself, but there's a lot of things that you can do. I think the most important part of that is knowing a valuable company, it's knowing what kind of strategy you're going to use, you can never do bull put spreads continually, because you're going to get hit at some point. Right. So again, learn how to do a bear call spread and do some different things to hedge your position. So it you know, that's education by itself, but there's definitely some big things. You know, you got to look at each thing of, you know, a comfort level and then continuing education. I definitely am. I'll continue to get better at that as well. Allen: Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, there's no way to tell which way the market is going, you know. Matt: Sure. Allen: I mean, we've been lucky that we've had a nice fed induced (inaudible) rally recently, the last couple years. But again, we don't know how long that's going to last and what's going to happen after that. But as somebody who has been doing this for, you know, a little bit longer than you have. Matt: Much longer. Allen: It's good to be able to, like you said, you know, understand the different strategies as well. And you said you've done you know, two or three of them and you've, you've practiced them over and over again. So that when things do change, that you can also see that coming and then you can change with it. So You know, I was talking to someone earlier today, and we were talking about and he was, he was asking about iron condors. And he's like, yeah, you know, I've tried honor condors didn't work at all. So how do you make them work? I said, Well, you know, every strategy doesn't work for every person. Some people might like one strategy, and they're really good at it. And somebody else, their brother might try it. And their brother might be horrible at it. You know, it's different risk tolerances, and different personalities will tell what strategy you should work on. And so.. Matt: Yeah, that's really fascinating. Like you said earlier, you know, we talked about how you can get the same trade as somebody, it just turns out different. And I think it's, it's fascinating in psychology, and it's also how, you know, you think of a trade and everyone's into individual to that trade. So it's pretty interesting. Allen: And you said, you had studied psychology, right? in school? Matt: Yeah, I have a degree in psychology from the University of Alabama. And, you know, I just, I never knew what I wanted to do in college. And it's interesting, I find myself using it. Now. I it's the psychology of the markets. And I think about how why people sell and why people buy and, you know, a lot of it's fear based, sometimes people that are very smart, do stupid things. You know, you just think that it's not that way, but it is very true. So it's, it's a whole, I never thought I'd be using psychology, but I do. I'm fascinated why people think the way they do. Allen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting. It's very interesting. Yeah. I mean, I've been a big fan of psychology, just trying to understand myself, you know, and most of the time, like, you know, when we try to figure out, okay, hey, this stock went down today, what happened? A lot of times, we can't figure it out. I don't know, there's so many. There's so many background factors. But I think the study of psychology really helps in the big picture thinking, you know, you might not be able to figure out exactly why a stock moved up and down, depending on if there's some news about it. But the overall market like, hey, if this happens, then this is how people react. And then this is how they think. And then this is what happens in the stock market. So it's definitely a learning experience. And something that comes with years of experience, as you get used to it, say, Okay, I saw this happened. So I, I expected this to happen because of that. So it's really interesting. Allen: I really appreciate your time, Matthew, and just wanted to give you one more, you know, like hey, is there anything else that last words that you want to share with our audience?  Matt: Just I encourage people that are, you know, maybe thinking just like how I am, you know, they're out there working everyday life, and they just don't think that this is possible, and I just wanted to really encourage them to, you know, take a shot at it. And really, you know, if you're really interested in it, and put your 100% into it. And, you know, you could really surprise you on the other end, what life has to offer to you if you really get into it. And trading is a wonderful way to do that. So I'd really encourage people of all walks of life to try to better their situation, I think it's a great, great avenue to do so. Allen: Right. And you got started again, how? Just by reading a book? Matt: Yeah, I was just really looking at a compound interest chart. I was just, I just looked at it. And I was like, man, I could just kind of see the overall plan. I was like, I didn't know, you know, you know, everyone wants to be rich, and they want to have enough money. And it was a different feeling. At that time, I was young, and you know, mostly when you're young, or just want to get things and accumulate things and, you know, burn the world down. And that's not the case, as you get older, usually, you know, you, you find out what's really important. And to me, it's time with family and friends. And once I saw that chart, I could see the kind of overall kind of structure if you will, what I want to do. And then now as I got into it, I started filling in the blanks and seeing what way to get there. And trading is really kind of sped that process up. And I'm very excited about it. Allen: So do you see yourself like, okay, hey, you know, and this year, or this keeps up and you know, this age, I'm going to be a millionaire or 100 millionaire or something like that-  that doesn't appeal to you, right? Or does it sometimes? Matt: You know, like, I have a goal of turning you know, our money and making a million dollars. And that's, I wrote it down and seven years, I'd like to do that. If I don't get there, I'm not going to be upset about it. Like I said, you have to be happy about the process and excited about the process. And long as you're generally heading the right way. You can't help but be happy. I mean, if there's little setbacks, but if your general trajectory is moving forward, that's all you can ask for. And we're excited about that. So, you know, the number is less of a issue to me, as I get into it, you know, it's a great thing. And it's a great byproduct of what we're doing. But I think you just got to really look inward and be contentment and what really makes you happy in life, whatever it is you'd like to do. So, you know, money is just a tool to get there. And I I really feel that at this age, you know, it took me 20 years to figure that out. But yeah, it's exciting. Allen: Yeah, I totally agree with you and I'm excited for you, man. It's Just like, you know, you just get started now it's just, it's just up from here, you know, it's just the sky's the limit, and you know, a million dollars one day, you're gonna be like, Oh, that was nothing, you know? Let's go for 3, let's go for 5. Matt: You know, if not, I always say, Hey, you know, I can be happy I took a shot at So, you know, yeah, I left everything on the table. And that's what you have to do. And I couldn't be happier about that. Allen: But you've gotten it done. You know, it's not, it's not like, You got lucky, you've been doing it for consistently, you know, over and over and over again. And yeah, we've had a good market. And that helps. But you know, every market can be a good market, if you know what you're doing. So the fact that.. Matt: I'm very worried about that, because I started investing in 2009. Okay, so I've never seen a crash. And I know that and I'm aware that and I also look at, hey, what are my feelings going to be? And I try to read books about it, and listen to people and talk about their experiences, because I want to know what to do in that situation. So I could, that's a continuation thing for me. I mean, I know I have not been in a crash. That's all been up for me. And but I do know that I have to be wary of that. And I have to have a plan for that. And that's what I'm doing right now. So, you know, I don't want to get complacent and that I'm winning and winning and winning, because losses could be around the corner. And I just gotta know how to mitigate that process. Allen: So and see, I mean, just that comment right there. That's like, you know, this guy knows what he this guy's got a head good head on his shoulders. You know, he's not he's not overconfident. And he's not like, Oh, yeah, this is gonna happen for the rest of my life. I'm just gonna make money every month. No, I mean, I've been looking at it from all different angles, and you've been practicing and trading and different things. And you said, Oh, yeah, I've been doing put spreads. But I'm also doing call spreads, you know, because eventually, I'm going to need them. So it's like, yeah, there you go. That's it. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, you do it the right way. You're doing it really the right way. And you started small and you're, you know, slowly, slowly, you're increasing. But you're still sticking to, you know, something that's manageable. You're not Oh, like you said that one trade I had. I mean, oh my god, out of 60 trades you've only lost one that's like, incredible. I never heard anybody do that. That's like, Well, can I give you my money? I want to go sail around the world here. You just take it in, take care of it for me. Matt: You can't have it back on if I lose it? Yeah. Allen: No, I think you'll be okay because you're getting prepared for it. You know, you're not blindsided. It's like, yeah, this is part of it. I've seen it. You know, you've maybe you haven't seen it yourself. But you've heard of it. But you're not. What are you like, 45 years at? Matt: I'm 45 Allen: Yeah, so you've been alive when there has been crashes? And oh, yeah. and stuff, you know, the.com bubble, everybody still remembers that? No, tell you about that. And, and stuff like that. So it's not like it's something completely out of the blue for you. If somebody was like 15 years old, or 20 years old - they're like, Oh, yeah, you know, I've never seen America crash. It's never gonna crash. But yeah, it's there. And you are, you're rounding out what I, you know, like, it's like, it's not just, you focused on something you learned about it, you practiced it, and you're like, Okay, this is working. Now I need to add to it, I need to add another skill, I need to add another skill. And you're, and you're still adding, that's the coolest thing that you're still growing, you're still learning. And you're still humble enough about it, so that you're like, you know, hey, I'm still working. And I work hard, and I have a good job, and I like it. But I would like to have more. And then eventually, I'm gonna work part time. That's really cool. Yeah. Matt: I actually parallel investing with running a marathon. You know  running marathons is a very difficult process, and it takes a lot of work. And there's a lot of dips along the way, and at times you feel like quitting, and there's a point of elation, and you have an angle. And I kind of feel like that kind of parallels my trading style. So I know that there's going to be, you know, mile 15 is going to be horrible. And mile 18 could be even worse. And then you get the mile 24 and you're like, elated. It's almost at the end. And that's kind of how investing is, you know, you have great times and you have terrible times. And you have to, you know, when you're training, you're accounting for all these processes along the way. You know, what shoes do I wear? How do I do this? If it rains? How do I count for this? I don't feel good. How do I account for that? What did I eat? all that stuff is very similar to how trading is in trading really, you learn a lot about yourself, just like you do in marathon running. I mean, you learn about what you're really made of, and the risk that you take and who you are as a person. So I think there's a lot of parallels there. Allen: Wow, yeah, I've never run a marathon but it sounds horrible. Matt: Yeah, I mean, people are like, they're either they do it or they want it done. I've got the bug. I was crazy. I decided doing but um, I don't do them anymore. I maybe maybe have one or two. I mean, I will see but uh, you know, I want to keep my knees going into my 50s. Allen: Cool. All right, Matthew. I really appreciate it. This was great. I mean, it's wonderful to see you know, somebody go from knowing nothing to making you know, four grand a month trading part time. And, you know, it's like, Hey, I can do this. If you can do for you can eventually do more, and it'll replace your income and make all your dreams come true. So kudos to you for getting in the path, taking the risk, and trying it out, learning, spending the time, and I hope that people listen to this and they're encouraged by it, they're inspired by you, I mean  when I heard your story, I was like, "we gotta get Matthew on the show". You know, forklift driver to early retiree. Matt: Yeah I hope so. I appreciate you guys and I can't thank you enough, you and your team, that there's actually people out there that teach this stuff and actually care about people, because there's a lot of people that don't have it all and I really appreciate that. Allen: Thank you Matt: Yeah I'm sure your viewers appreciate it as well. Allen: Yeah thank you for hanging out with us. Matt: Alright, thank you. LOVE ALLEN SAMA - OPTION GENIUS AND WANT TO LEARN MORE TRADING TIPS  AND TRICKS? HERE ARE SOME NEXT STEPS... SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PODCAST FREE 9 LESSON COURSE: https://optiongenius.com/  WATCH THIS FREE TRAINING: https://passivetrading.com  JOIN OUR PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP: https://optiongenius.com/alliance  Like our show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps.

Even with all of the WordPress consolidation happening, there's still plenty of opportunity ahead for the industry. There's lots of potential users, customers, and room for investment (note: we just saw the acquisition of Yoast happen by Newfold, formally EIG. If I had to guess, somewhere between a $30-50M deal.) If you though the plugin space is crowded or even more specifically the membership & LMS veritcal, then I have a surprise for you today. Nathalie Lussier, founder of AccessAlly a LMS plugin for WordPress joins us to talk about her venture in building her business. From selling online courses and building community to building and selling software — this is a fantastic lesson for all of us. Her and her team are really proving that in the a crowded market, you stand apart from the crowd by knowing who your perfect customer is and building them the perfect product. Episode Transcript [00:00:00] This episode is brought to you by paid memberships pro well, actually it's their other product. Site-wide sales at site-wide sales.com. It's a complete black Friday cyber Monday and flash sales tool for WooCommerce or paid memberships pro. Before, you know it, the deal day holidays will be fast upon us. And you want to prepare your WooCommerce or paid memberships pro website.[00:00:20] With the site-wide sales plugin, use it to make custom sale banners, targeted landing pages or apply discounts automatically in the cart. Use it to track the performance of all of these promotional features using the reporting feature, which will paint the picture of your black Friday and holiday shopping sales. I use it to help make your woo commerce or paid memberships pro store more money.[00:00:43] Get the first 30 days for free. And then it's an easy $49 a year. Check out site-wide sales.com. That's site-wide sales.com to make more money. This holiday sale season.[00:00:56] Matt: Even with all of the WordPress consolidation happening, there's still plenty of opportunity ahead for them. There's lots of potential users, customers, and room for investments notes. We just saw the acquisition of Yoast happened by new fold, formerly EIG. If I had to guess a deal somewhere between a 30 and $50 million acquisition, if you thought the plugin space is crowded or even more specifically, the membership and LMS vertical is crowded.[00:01:22] Then I have a surprise for you today, Natalie Lucier founder of access, ally and LMS plugin for WordPress joins us to talk about her venture in building her. From selling online courses and building community to building and selling software. This is a fantastic lesson for all of us. Her and her team are really proving that in the crowded space, you stand apart from the crowd by knowing who your perfect customer is and building them the perfect product you're listening to the Maryport a podcast for the resilient digital business builders.[00:01:51] Subscribe to the newsletter maryport.com/subscribe and follow the podcast on. Spotify, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts better yet. Please share this episode, please do, because I just read that the best way to grow a podcast is word of mouth and sharing. So please share this episode with others.[00:02:09] We'd love more listeners around here. Okay. Let's get into today's episode.[00:02:13] It almost feels like a SAS software as a service. Tell us about that, that moment when you realize I'm teaching people, I might as well build the software too.[00:02:22] Nathalie: Yeah, absolutely. So I was in the like marketing and tech space and doing videos on like, how to build a popup and how to do things on your WordPress site and how to market your courses and all of that stuff. And I was teaching. In courses and also on YouTube and people who were, signing up to our free challenge.[00:02:42] We had a challenge called the 30 day list building challenge to help people build an email list and they were signing up. And it was, becoming pretty popular. So we had a lot of people logging in at the same time. And at the time. I thought we were getting attacked by hackers or something.[00:02:56] Cause we have so many logins and the way that our plugin that we were using at the time it kept pinging our CRM and every single time somebody went to any page on that site. So, we were having nightmares basically. I would wake up every morning and have to call my host to have them. Unlock us, essentially, we put my website back up and then all the people who were signing up were upset with us because, they signed up and they couldn't get what they were asking for or what we had promised.[00:03:21] So essentially my husband and I were like, okay, let's just quickly whip up a plugin to replace what we have right now, just to stop this problem. And so that's literally in one weekend we wrote the first beta beta version of access ally. And it was just to solve our own problem. Yeah. But then after that, we kind of realized like, Hey, okay, this gives us a lot of, interesting options.[00:03:40] And we started adding on and kind of building other things that we thought would be very useful for the people going through our courses and content. And that was kind of the start of what you see today.[00:03:51] Matt: So you ha I, I didn't write this down in our peer review, but what was the timeline you had popup ally first and then.[00:03:58] Then we created access ally, correct?[00:04:00] Nathalie: Yes. So we built SSLI first just to solve this problem. And we knew that someday we might release something like this, but it just felt like too big of an undertaking to do a whole like online membership or LMS or anything like that. So we ended up building popup ally next and releasing that first because we knew we could do a free version.[00:04:19] We could see how that went. Then we could do a paid version and see how that was. Being responded to and how we could handle support and all of that. And then we realized, okay, yes, we can actually do this. We have the chops. And so let's go all in on SSLI and kind of build[00:04:33] Matt: that. And I'll, I'll paint sort of the the, the picture at least of the way that I see it in my head is pop-up plugin a very, very broad market, big market.[00:04:44] Chances are anyone who might be selling courses or digital content is going to be attracted to a pop-up to use on their site to capture the visitor's attention. And, oh, by the way, we also. Have this LMS plug-in fair statement.[00:04:58] Nathalie: Yeah, it totally started off that way. It's a much broader, pop-ups are much broader.[00:05:02] And then, yeah, like you said, people who are using them to build an email list and audience, they probably will want to sell something online. So, so that pretty much leads to access ally.[00:05:12] Matt: Yeah. I want to start with something that I won't say it's a curve ball, but a little bit on the hot seat, but something that I totally enjoy what you're doing with access ally is the pricing.[00:05:22] And I think I know a lot of Plugins in the space a lot of, well, let me ask you this question. Before I dive into that, do you refer to it as a plugin or software? Like how do you feel about the product itself? I don't want to just say plug in if you feel like you're greater than that.[00:05:40] This episode is brought to you by paid memberships pro well, actually it's their other product. Site-wide sales at site-wide sales.com. It's a complete black Friday cyber Monday and flash sales tool for WooCommerce or paid memberships pro. Before, you know it, the deal day holidays will be fast upon us. And you want to prepare your WooCommerce or paid memberships pro website.[00:06:01] With the site-wide sales plugin, use it to make custom sale banners, targeted landing pages or apply discounts automatically in the cart. Use it to track the performance of all of these promotional features using the reporting feature, which will paint the picture of your black Friday and holiday shopping sales. I use it to help make your woo commerce or paid memberships pro store more money.[00:06:24] Get the first 30 days for free. And then it's an easy $49 a year. Check out site-wide sales.com. That's site-wide sales.com to make more money. This holiday sale season.[00:06:37] Nathalie: Yeah. So it is technically a plugin, right?[00:06:39] So people download it and install it. But we do see it as software, as a service, just because we are constantly developing and people have so many feature requests and things that we're constantly updating. So, and then we also offer a lot of support. So that's the service side as well. So I do feel like it's a little bit more than just like here, download this plugin and good luck.[00:06:57] It is like a real partnership. And I think that's why the price, in my opinion reflects that when people will come to the website and people also do think so. I mistake that it's a platform and that it's totally hosted. And we've talked about potentially doing that, but we do also appreciate that it's a plugin and they could work with other things.[00:07:13] And there's a lot of benefits to being in that WordPress ecosystem too.[00:07:18] Matt: That's sometimes it's a disadvantage for a bulk of visitors that come to the site and they go, oh, wait, I was looking for a plugin. This looks like a platform. Do you, have you ever noticed that a drop off in the quote unquote funnel at all, that, that you've actually paid close attention[00:07:33] Nathalie: to?[00:07:33] Usually it goes the other way where they wanted a platform and then they're like, oh wait, I need to WordPress. So most, most of our marketing so far is kind of the opposite, but yeah.[00:07:44] Matt: Yeah, I wanted to give you a sort of a fair chance to see how you disseminated between the plugin and the, and the soft.[00:07:51] As a mindset, because I think a lot of us, myself included, like I have a tiny little plugin, easy support videos. I've done other plugins in the past, which have burned a miserable failure of a death. And, but the fact of the matter is I was always kind of just like, oh yeah, it's just, it's just this plugin.[00:08:08] And I think a lot of us just have to say, no, This is a software business. Like let's, let's, let's, let's give ourselves a little bit of credit here. Like this is a software business that we're in. We're not just like this little throw away plugin, even though that's the technical term for it. And I think we could do a lot for ourselves mentally.[00:08:24] If we just have a little bit more of that, that confidence boost when, and when we look at it, because it changes the mindset, it changes how you approach it. And that's what I want to talk about with your. $99 a month. That's what access ally essentials starts with. That's one website. Very far beyond what, you might see from just, let's say a free LMS or an LMS plug-in that's $79 for the year or something like that.[00:08:49] How did you get to this pricing? Was it immediate or did you have some bumps and bruises along? That's[00:08:55] Nathalie: a great question. So we started off at 79 a month. That was before, that was the first price that we started originally a couple of years ago. But yeah, we've, we've had a lot of conversations internally and a lot of it really comes down to what value I think we really provide to people.[00:09:10] So we are pretty close to making people money, right. So we help them take payments. We have an affiliate program built in and we basically help them sell courses. All kinds of other things. So that to me shows me that we can provide a lot of value for them. And when you're comparing, what other tools they might be purchasing to do with something similar, sometimes they might be purchasing, multiple things like maybe it's multiple plugins, or maybe it's like one thing for a shopping cart, one thing for this other thing.[00:09:36] And then by the time you add up all the time, Invested in making all of those things work together. That's kind of to us a lot of value, so that's kind of how we thought about it. And then we were also just looking around at some of the competition and also what we knew we needed to charge to provide the service that we wanted.[00:09:52] So that also came into it a lot. So we have two full-time support people and US-based, they we love taking care of our teams, so they have, good salaries and benefits. And I don't think we could do that if we were trying to charge less and try to compete on the, on the pricing side, we wanted to really provide more value and then also charge well for it.[00:10:12] And there is also something that changes when somebody pays more for software, which is that they're a little bit more committed. They're really in it for the longterm. Most likely to stick as well. So like, obviously if it's too expensive for them, they're not going to sign up in the first place. So we kind of lose people that way, but we do have more people signing up and staying long-term because they know we're kind of in that partnership.[00:10:33] And a lot of times people tell us we love access ally because it lets us do all these great things. But also because every time we have a question or we have something we want to do that just quite do yet, it comes out like a month or two later. Right. So that's something we couldn't do if we were, trying to appeal to too many people at a lower price.[00:10:51] Matt: You have a degree in software engineering, this, that answer and the way you've positioned the product is what I'll say. And these are my words, not yours is a much more mature business answer than what I normally see in the WordPress space. Again, myself included, you build a product you're like, oh my God, does anybody want to buy this?[00:11:11] And then you say to yourself, I know what I'll do. I'll just make it cheap. Then somebody will certainly buy it. But you, you jumped in at an eight. 860 ish dollar a year or a little bit more at my mass. Not really good right out of the gate at 79 bucks a month. Is this the first business you've launched or this you're a second, third, fourth, fifth business.[00:11:29] Cause it sounds like you've gone through the paces a little bit before.[00:11:32] Nathalie: Absolutely. So yeah, this is not the first business. And I started off with my very first business out of college. It was all in the healthy eating space and that was kind of my training business. So I just learned like marketing and like I built my own website and all of those things.[00:11:45] And then. The kind of teaching of the online stuff and the online marketing was kind of the next one. And then this is sort of the third business I would call it and yeah, it, it definitely like we learn so much. Yeah. Yeah.[00:11:58] Matt: And this is a great thing because I think this is hard to just like, this is not a question, but much more of just like a general statement and then interested on your thoughts, but it sort of raises the value of all of us, right?[00:12:12] When you price your product like this. Well, you're getting true value. You're asking for true value. And on the other end, it's a, it's a solid business. Like you said, there are people working for us. We're paying them well, you're going to get great support. You're probably getting a higher degree of customer as well.[00:12:30] Like they're not coming in, just like, give me all this free stuff. Cause they're already paying a hundred bucks a month. So there's a different level there. There's money out there that I think a lot of people just get a fee. I get that fear factor where like, oh, I guess I do have to do a hundred bucks for the year because my God, nobody will buy it otherwise.[00:12:46] But yes, there are people who just want good stuff with great support. And that's the most important part for them is to like have somebody that's going to be there for them and stand the test of time. Right. Especially if they're a long-term WordPress user who has seen other places come and go or freelancers come and go, they don't want that.[00:13:08] Their vote of confidence is I will pay you a solid amount of money. So you stay in business and support me. Well, But it sounds like you've learned that over the years and that's how you've got to this point.[00:13:18] Nathalie: I literally had customers tell us that we know you're not going to disappear overnight because we're paying you well, and that's worth it to me.[00:13:24] Is that kind of security. And yeah, absolutely. We have that long-term vision and that long. Yeah. Stay in the game kind of energy. And I think that definitely comes across with the people that end up signing up for us. Yeah.[00:13:37] Matt: To that. I was going to put you on the hotspot, but then we kinda, we kind of shifted a little bit on your pricing page.[00:13:42] One of the check marks is top of the line support. I feel like everyone might say top of the line support, or we have the best support. What does top of the line of support mean for you and for your customers?[00:13:53] Nathalie: Yeah, we have a lot of things that we do for our customers. So everyone gets a free jumpstart calls.[00:13:58] So that means after they purchase, we get on like a zoom call with them. We help them get everything set up. We answer any questions they have. We make sure it works with the things that they're currently using or planning to use. So that's a big part of it. And then we also have a tune-up calls. Three times a month right now.[00:14:14] And so they can jump on any time they have questions or want to walk through something that they're trying to accomplish, that maybe they got stuck on. And then in terms of actually, if you get into a situation where you're stuck or anything like that in between, then we also have email support. And like I said, we have two people dedicated to that.[00:14:30] And obviously our response time varies, but right now it's like averaging at eight minutes, which is kind of crazy. So during this. So, yeah, we do have, we do a lot and then we also have really robust, message-based and videos and all of that stuff to make sure if you're more of a, self-serve kind of like, I just, I'm working at midnight.[00:14:47] I know you're not gonna be online. I'm just going to finish this up and watch this video kind of thing.[00:14:51] Matt: Yeah, it's fantastic. It's one of the things I do as part of my role at cast dose is we do two weekly calls, Tuesdays and Thursdays, 12:00 PM, Eastern, same kind of thing, open office hours, or show up.[00:15:02] If you have a question, you can answer it there. We don't do phone support, which is still like a thing these days. Like people still are like, why can't I just call somebody? It's like, well, we have these two dedicated hours where you can hop on a zoom call and you can chat with us, which I think is a fairly fair approach.[00:15:16] Plus. Nearly 24 7 help desk support through Zendesk and an email and chat. So, that's a fantastic approach. I certainly like your approach of having that onboarding call that kickoff, call that alone, which I know developers, the more developer mindset folks who don't want to talk to anybody. I just want to print money with my product that I'm selling.[00:15:36] Don't ever talk to me, just buy it. Man, you can re like that's literally what you can charge. Out of the gate. Like if you just tell somebody that you buy this and I'll hop on a zoom call to help you set it up, whatever that means for your product, that's worth so much money to somebody. And it's just that one hour of your time.[00:15:53] I know there could be some chances where they knock on the door against, Hey, we're going to hop on another call. I think largely 95% of your customer base will never knock on your door again and just email you. And I think that's a fantastic approach. I applaud you for that. What else do you provide on those tune-up calls?[00:16:10] Is there anything else that you do in a more structured approach? I just leave the door open. I say, come in and show up and ask anything you want, but do you approach it with any more structure than that? Yeah,[00:16:19] Nathalie: for the most part, we just talk about what people bring to the, to the call, but sometimes we do have like new features or new scenarios and things that we've kind of seen people creating and we want to share it with them.[00:16:30] So sometimes we'll do like, okay, you're doing a teams kind of feature. So that basically means, you're selling to a bulk group of people and then here's how you set that up. And here's how they would assign other team members to the courses and that kind of stuff, or we'll do like, okay, here's what you need to know about doing this summit.[00:16:46] If you're using XSLT to run your summit, like how you do that. So we'll kind of talk about a little bit about those scenarios that are kind of either popular or that we've seen someone do really well and kind of want to share with the rest of the community.[00:16:57] Matt: Gotcha. No, that's awesome. I will, I will write that down or release it to my episode and then apply that to cast those next time.[00:17:04] I'm on my next time. I'm on my call. You started to, to say that, look, we know who our customer is. One they're paying a little bit more. We're helping them make money. Who would you say your best customer profile is for accessing.[00:17:19] Nathalie: So some of our best customers are people who are in the business space.[00:17:23] So they may not be like teaching business, but maybe they have business processes that help other business owners. So kind of that team aspect I was talking about. So, we have people who are, let's say a sales trainer, and then they've got a program that they've developed that they sell to other companies to train their sales teams.[00:17:38] Or we have someone who's doing a coaching certification. So she's a coach and she's teaching other people how to become a coach. So they will become certified in her method. So there's a lot of that kind of teaching something, but two groups of people that tends to be one of our bigger people. So we have like a dog trainer and I think, she comes in and she's, she's got groups of doc trainers in other businesses learning her methods and that kind of thing.[00:18:01] So that seems to be one of our, our ideal.[00:18:04] Matt: Yeah, no, that's awesome. That's awesome that you can identify. How can you paint the picture of how that has changed if at all, from when you first started the business? Like, did you go into the business thinking, yeah, we're going to serve this one particular set it's changed.[00:18:18] Nathalie: It's changed a lot over the years. Mostly our understanding of it. I think kind of similar people have been coming to us just based on like, who knows us and who they've recommended it to, and that kind of thing. So we've got a lot of authors and speakers and podcasters, and basically the content creators do come to us quite a bit.[00:18:34] And over the years we realized, okay, the ones who are really doing well are the ones who they have a little bit more of that leverage. They can kind of sell to more people. So that's. Evolved over time. We definitely have people who are more of the, do it yourselfers or who are just getting started.[00:18:47] So that that's great too, but I think our kind of top customer, those people who are a little bit more established and have that credibility and can kind of scale a little bit faster that way.[00:18:56] Matt: One of the questions I have written down from our pre-interview was how you navigate the competition.[00:19:00] And as we're talking, like, I'm thinking about. Like boy I don't know if you compete against anybody in the WordPress space, just because of your positioning, your brand value statements and who you, who you're serving now as customers. Do you find yourself competing with more WordPress or more SAS based or is it just a, a good 50 50 mix?[00:19:18] Nathalie: Yeah, it's a little bit of a 50, 50 split. I would say. We definitely could be more with like Kajabi and teachable and Thinkific for the most part. But we also have a little bit of competition on the WordPress side too. It just depends on like what people are familiar with when they find us. So a lot of times if they aren't familiar with WordPress and they've probably looked at LearnDash or number press or lift your LMS or something like that.[00:19:39] So they're kind of familiar more with that. Or if they're kind of. Sort of, they don't quite know what they're doing, but they just know they want an online course and they might have already looked at Kajabi or teachable or Thinkific. And so they'll kind of compare us very differently based on their background and kind of where they're coming from.[00:19:55] So we do have a lot of developers who are more comparing us to WordPress versus business owners themselves tend to compare us more to the class.[00:20:03] Matt: Yeah. If you grew up in WordPress and you only knew of the WordPress LMS plugins, you'd be like, yeah, it's a decent size market, but then once you get into like these SAS based businesses I'll keep the name.[00:20:15] I won't say the name, but I worked with a hosted LMS. It wasn't really even an LMS. It was just a membership. It had nothing to do with like learning modules or structures or anything like that. It was just a membership site. I'm trying to say this without revealing who it is, there was nothing wrong, but yeah, so it was like this blanket membership thing.[00:20:34] And it served all kinds of anyone. And I, I talked to this person and I heard what they were doing for revenue. I was like, Wow, the space is that big. Like, I can't even imagine what these other platforms that are doing that have, like, hyper-focused got great product, great marketing after this person had anything wrong, but it just made me and my eyes wide of like how big this market is.[00:20:57] Do you have a sense? Of how large the market is numbers wise for outside of the WordPress LMS[00:21:03] Nathalie: world? Yeah, so I don't know the exact numbers, but I know that sort of the LMS, like in general market is like billions of dollars and just continues to increase year to year. So it's definitely growing and obviously like with COVID and like a lot of things have changed more and more in the online direction.[00:21:20] So. Only going to keep growing in my opinion. But yeah, I don't know the exact numbers for each individual businesses, but I know that, some businesses are going public or, so there's definitely a lot of growth in this space. For sure.[00:21:33] Matt: You said you started a business with your husband.[00:21:35] Labeled co-founder too, or just painting.[00:21:40] Nathalie: He's definitely my co-founder, but I would say he is more like head of engineering and just focused on development and kind of making sure that that sort of thing is solid[00:21:49] Matt: with everything that's going on. With, COVID weird to say, cause we're like for two years, I feel like we're going two years into it, 20 years into it feels like, but at least in the podcast world, we saw a huge rush to private podcasting company.[00:22:01] Only podcasting a way to communicate internally with your organization instead of just video calls all day long. I'd imagine there's a market there for you where people started knocking on the door saying, Hey. It w maybe we don't want to sell this, but we need software that structures education to our organization out.[00:22:18] Do you feel like you're at a point where maybe having a sales team knocking on enterprise doors and like playing that game, is that something that you're interested or exploring or already doing?[00:22:28] Nathalie: That's a great question. So we do have one person on our team who's in sales, but we haven't done as much of the outreach piece.[00:22:34] So that is definitely something that is kind of. I think on our horizon essentially so far, we've been just working with the market that we know and kind of just building for them, but there's definitely a lot more potential for where we can go. And we're actually just trying to figure out like what what that looks like and kind of what, what those, like other verticals might be as well.[00:22:54] Cause we are trying to just stay focused just because I think that's easier to grow, but once we've kind of figured this out, then I do think we can kind of open up to the other verticals.[00:23:03] Matt: Is this a fully bootstrap business? Or do you have investors that salesperson when, what is their responsibilities now?[00:23:11] Is it just answering questions? Inbound questions. Does he, or she like structure custom agreements extra support, that[00:23:18] Nathalie: kind of thing at the moment, it's basically she does demos. She'll do some of those onboarding calls. So it is half, I would say customer support, half sales in that way. And then we have marketing that does more of the, like getting people to book those demos and kind of come to the website and all of that.[00:23:34] But yeah, that's something that we're like definitely like all eyes and ears open for how to, how to do that slightly[00:23:39] Matt: differently. Have you had any requests from bigger enterprises or brands, could pay more than a hundred bucks a month?[00:23:46] Nathalie: I have we've had some clients and part of it is like sometimes like a school would be interested, but then we, there's a couple of things that don't quite work.[00:23:55] Either. Have certain requirements and that we're not quite fast enough to be able to like, get up to speed on what they're needing. So we, like, I think it's kind of that tricky thing is like, we built it really for entrepreneurs. So when we have different types of institutions that come to us we might not have exactly, exactly what they want, but we have like 80% of what they want.[00:24:12] So this is kind of the, the balance of what we're working[00:24:15] Matt: on for sure. Put a an identifier on whether or not that's like a feature that you don't have, or like an administrative thing you don't have like SOC two compliance or something. Ridiculous.[00:24:28] Nathalie: Yeah. A lot of times it's like SCORM type stuff and like more more things that I don't personally have as much experience.[00:24:35] Yeah. Even just having a conversation about it is kind of like, okay. Tell me exactly what that means. It gets a little bit tricky versus where if they're talking to someone who has that experience, they're just going to be like off to the races with that. Yeah.[00:24:47] Matt: Yeah. It's another lesson. Again, just looking at your site and listening to you and how you position yourself.[00:24:53] Like, there is lots of opportunity there. And, and for other folks who are listening to this in the WordPress space, 90, but I don't wanna say 90%, but 70% of the time, like when a big enterprise knocks on your door, Your price could literally be 10 X, what you're charging now. And it has nothing to do with the features.[00:25:13] It is the time that it takes to sell them. Right. It's just the sales process. It literally like six months to a year for most of them. And then it's all this administrative stuff back and forth. And then it's your terms. How can we pay you? Right. And. People are like, wait, we don't have a credit. We're not going to give you a credit card for a month.[00:25:32] We want to pay for three years. Like, where's the, where's the legal ease around that. And it's like, if you just had like all of this templated purchasing or procurement structure in place, you could be off to the races without even adding features. And in fact, I'd say features ends up being. Down the totem pole because a marketing person gets excited and they're like, yeah, this is a great product.[00:25:54] Oh, by the way, here's the procurement team. And then you're just like, oh shit, I got to go through legal now than I have to go through InfoSec, and then I get to talk to like the CFO and they get to talk about like, structuring a contract. So, again, no real question there, but just from my own experience, like I think WordPress can do WordPress products can do better by satisfying some of those needs that just doesn't have anything to do with.[00:26:15] At the end of the day. Yeah, absolutely. You your husband to support people? I heard the sales person. That's five, a marketing person is six. How much more on the[00:26:27] Nathalie: team? Actually two marketing people right now. One person who is in people ops, and then we have two development interns as[00:26:36] Matt: well. Nice. How do you recruit the interns locally?[00:26:39] Nathalie: Yeah, so they're at the university of that. My husband and I both went to, so they have a really great program. That's like a co-op program. So we basically just post and interview and hire and it's been going really well.[00:26:50] Matt: Yeah. I would definitely say a lot of that. Some agencies and product people should definitely look locally.[00:26:55] For developers, especially in that sort of intern phase, it's great to sort of educate people locally and pray to God. They stay, don't leave the area when they graduate, because where I'm from, they leave the area when they graduate and we lose that, that great talent. When you started, how big was it?[00:27:08] Nathalie: When I started, it was just me, my husband, and an[00:27:11] Matt: assistant any, and this was going to be a broad question. Thoughts on hiring people, growing the team? What was that? Was that stressful at all? Turbulent at all?[00:27:22] Nathalie: Yeah, it was a huge learning curve. So I feel like some of our best hires we figured out. A little bit late was it was already in our community.[00:27:31] So they were already, super fans or maybe they were building websites for people using our plugin. And so they already have the talent and the know-how and he just had to like recruit them. And that, that was a big learning curve because we were posting on these very broad job boards and finding people who were just looking for a job and they don't really care about us.[00:27:50] And so when something else comes along, The end. So, that was a big kind of ruining her for us. And yeah, we're doing a lot in that, in that way. Like how can we nurture our community? How can you make their lives easier and better? And then, if they're ready for a different kind of position that fits what we're looking for, then yet we're definitely super excited about.[00:28:09] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. The whole, like, I don't know if you hear it, but I've heard it before I started or when I was starting my businesses, like hire slow fire fast and I'm like, yeah, Yeah, you just got to laugh at that. I'll be like, I just need people now. Like I don't have time to slow this process down. And then you realize that six months into it, you're like I pick the wrong person or this or this person picked the wrong place.[00:28:32] And now what do I do? And that is so true. I mentor at a local accelerator in the, and it's a nonprofit accelerator for sustainable businesses in my area and the company that I'm mentoring. Now, they're trying to launch a nonprofit for daycare for disabled children. And. They're raised. They're, they're trying to figure out how they're going to get money.[00:28:51] And they're talking about grants and funding and all this stuff. And they're like right out of the gate, we want to hire 10 people and I'm like, man, that's going to be tough. Like you don't like that process of just getting people in, especially 10 of them is going to take you. It's going to take a thousand people to talk to literally quite literally to get these 10 perfect people in the door here.[00:29:11] And it's, it is not easy. What's the next role that you think you'd be hiring?[00:29:13] Nathalie: We're actually hiring right now for a product manager and that's sort of. Me cause I've been head of product for quite a while. And it's great because I talk to our customers a lot. So I kind of know what they were looking for and how to build what they want.[00:29:27] But I also know I could be doing other things too. So it's kind of just freeing myself up a little bit so I can do more of the marketing and the sales and kind of the things you were talking about, like, okay. Like what's next, like lifting my head up a little bit and yeah.[00:29:39] Matt: Looking bigger picture. Is that where you would focus more on marketing sales?[00:29:42] If you were to alleviate[00:29:44] Nathalie: yourself? It, yeah, more marketing and sales, more interviews like these, more things like that where I can be a little bit more publicly visible and kind of get the word out for access to LA. Yeah.[00:29:55] Matt: Let's talk about the marketing side of it. How, without giving away the secret sauce, what, what has been your best approach to reaching these customers?[00:30:03] Previously you built your own audience. I assume you still leverage that same audience. What other areas are you getting into or how are you expanding that?[00:30:11] Nathalie: Yeah. So a lot of, I think my success is from list-building and building that community in the beginning and just having a lot of alignment with what they wanted and also like what we were offering.[00:30:22] And so we've done so much in the list, building realm, like we did a free challenge, we've done a like free, essentially a free video course where people like opt in and then they get a free video every day for 30 days. And that was probably. Lead magnet that was so super successful. And then, yeah, like, YouTube podcasts I've pretty much done all of the marketing things and kind of took a break for the past year and a half just because I had a baby and then obviously pandemic and so many things happened, but yeah, I feel like there's so much in the space of marketing that works really well.[00:30:52] I will say I don't tend to jump on. Like flashiest things. So I deleted my Instagram account. I'm not on Tik TOK, I'm not doing it clubhouse. Like I know there's been quite a few trends of like new platforms and new things, but I try to stick to things that work long-term. So for me, that's like SEO, YouTube videos.[00:31:09] Like those are the kinds of things that once you put it out there more and more people will find them over time. So to me, that is a really good long-term kind of investment on the marketing.[00:31:18] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I find Instagram to be challenging personally myself, even though I shouldn't, I just like podcasts, you should be able to, like flex in that area.[00:31:27] Is that what the kids say on Instagram? Like flex in that area and it should work well, but it doesn't, especially on like the WordPress site. It's like, there's nothing really flashy. That's going to be like excited. Like here's a picture of the dashboard with a filter on it. Like, what are we going to do here?[00:31:40] I get so jealous when I look at like other companies and other brands, right. Cool, like collabs, like backpacks, collabing with like these other makers or creators, like, ah, it's such an awesome way. You can't do that with WordPress is nothing there. It's fun and exciting. It's a challenge for sure.[00:31:54] What about you hinted before. That maybe you kind of explored the world of SAS. I know you said you wanted to be hyper-focused or you are hyper-focused even if it wasn't full on SAS, would you go and kind of pivot to supporting a Drupal or Joomla or another platform at all? Is that anywhere on the radar, SAS or otherwise?[00:32:14] Nathalie: Not so much the other off of WordPress. If we were to do more of a SAS, we would probably just take WordPress and host it and kind of do it. Like plug and play one click button. Your site is ready kind of thing. Which I know other platforms like Rainmaker have done, like they took WordPress and they sort of, Close it off a little bit.[00:32:32] So that's something we thought about and we've tested doing like hosting with the seam and things like that in the past. But also we know that our people tend to be power users and they want to be able to install other things and kind of make it work with other stuff. And that's kind of the beauty of WordPress.[00:32:45] So we don't want to like cut off the best part. So yeah, we kind of, we explore it like almost every year. We're like, what about now? What about now? But I don't think it's really the right move.[00:32:56] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. What about this is also kind of marketing kind of product, but what about partnerships in the WordPress space?[00:33:05] Advice or success that you've seen or not that you've seen in the space that you can speak towards partnering other plugins and, or e-commerce plugins or marketing plugins or anything like that.[00:33:15] Nathalie: Yeah. There are certain plugins that are positioned to do amazing things in terms of partnerships. So I know like WP fusion is an amazing one that they work with so many different things.[00:33:25] And so we've integrated with, with them. And there's a couple of other plugins that we've integrated with. But I would say our biggest integration partners are actually the CRMs and the email marketing systems that we integrate with. So they're kind of outside of WordPress, but we do integrate tightly with them.[00:33:38] So that gives us that ability to like co-market with them. And we're all listed on their websites and stuff as an integration options. So that has been really nice for us too. And people who are really looking for something that deeply integrates with that, they tend to come to us because of that. So.[00:33:53] Yeah. I almost feel like WordPress is awesome. And also there's other tools that most people are using. So just thinking about at that level too. So for example, we don't have an integration with zoom, but we used to have an integration with Google Hangouts. And so we would have, people could start a Google hangout from inside their membership site.[00:34:10] And so I think that's something too it's like, how can you connect to things outside of WordPress? Sometimes that people use a lot as well. So those are some, some things we've done in the past and some things that are still working well for[00:34:20] Matt: us, this seems to be a recurring. Trend in my last few interviews.[00:34:25] Is is integrations. Ad-ons, when to make those there's a million places you probably want to integrate with, I'm sure there's a million people who have requested things to integrate with. How do you find that balance? Because at the other end of it, and people are probably sick of me saying this already.[00:34:41] Is there is that the, the overhead of an integration that just doesn't become as popular as you thought it was going to be MailChimp, even though MailChimp's popular, let's just say MailChimp fell off the face of the earth. Then it's like, man, I got a half a dozen people over here using MailChimp and I still get to support this.[00:34:55] Add on how do you make the decision on when to support one or when to make one? And co-brand with one, two at the same time. Yeah.[00:35:03] Nathalie: So we currently integrate with five different email marketing systems. And the first one, we just build it for ourselves. Like, like I said, so that one was an easy, easy. Yes. And then after that, we looked at their biggest competitor essentially.[00:35:16] And so we went with that one and then. We noticed a trend where a lot of people were switching from both of these two to a third one. So then we integrated with that one. And then the next two are kind of just, they were all being compared a lot. So that kind of made sense to integrate at that time.[00:35:30] But yeah, we have, we have people constantly asking us to integrate with new payment systems and some people maybe in Europe can't use certain systems or in other parts of the world where they can't use Stripe, for example. So we definitely get a lot of. And I think it's exactly what you said.[00:35:46] Sometimes it comes down to numbers and if we've only had one person ask for it, like, I'm sorry, it's just probably not going to have it right now. And also integrations do change, right? So they changed their API and then we have to test and maintain and make sure it still works the way that promised or, that used to at least.[00:36:01] So that's been a bit of a trick. The situation over the years, because as those companies that we integrate with change and mature we have to kind of keep up with that. So that's definitely been a bit of a tricky thing. And we do have a whole backlog of integrations that people have asked for.[00:36:14] And we did keep our ears open. We keep track of each person that asks for it. And then when the numbers kind of tick up high enough, then that's kind of, usually when we pull the trigger on them,[00:36:22] Matt: I'm looking at the integration page now. I actually don't see a MailChimp. Has MailChimp not been requested or you just refuse to support the monkey?[00:36:29] Ah, yes.[00:36:30] Nathalie: So we've had a lot of people ask for it. I've never[00:36:32] Matt: said that on the air before it refused to support the monkey. I don't know where that came from, but sorry, go ahead.[00:36:36] Nathalie: That's hilarious. Yeah, no, we've definitely had. For MailChimp and our reasoning for not integrating so far is that they didn't have the functionality that we needed in terms of tagging and automation.[00:36:47] So we tend to integrate with the kind of more advanced CRM that do a lot of like cool things. And that basically think back to access LA after. And I know they've added a lot over the years, so we're probably gonna be revisiting, revisiting that again soon, but yeah, for now yeah, there's definitely people who've asked for it and.[00:37:02] Matt: I noticed that the footer there's a page called discover experts. Find an expert. I forget the title of it. It looks like there's a 20 ish or so maybe more if I actually filtered through and started searching how does this program work and what have been the, the positives and negatives of trying to build something like this off the ground, get something like this off the ground, because I know it's difficult to wrangle folks together to really get something of value here.[00:37:30] Yeah.[00:37:30] Nathalie: So we started our certification program. I think it was. Six years ago. So, it's been quite a few years in the making and the first round of it was in person, you had to fly out, we taught you everything there was to know about access ally and building sites and really kind of digging in. And it was a huge, it was a $10,000 program to sign up.[00:37:51] So it was definitely like, you're jumping in all in and that commitment level kind of connected with the people who were ready for it. So that really jumps start the program. And, a lot of those early people have had, hundreds of clients sent their way because of, being early adopters and kind of pioneering some of the things that we did with them and giving us feedback to improve the product and all of that.[00:38:11] So that's kind of how it started and then it's really kind of shifted over the year. So now it's an online things, so they don't have to come and fly out and meet us and learn the software. We actually teach them online. And basically what we do is we. Make sure they're really great at what they do.[00:38:25] And then we kind of filter them out based on what they're focused on. So some people only work with one CRM, that's their jam. They're super awesome at it. Other people love to do the design aspect of the site. Other people are more on the course development. So how to design the course in like the content and modules and all of that.[00:38:41] So we kind of have people doing different types of things. So we know kind of who to recommend when somebody comes to us and doesn't want to do their own setup and do all that.[00:38:49] Matt: Yeah, that's fantastic. And putting a price tag on it is very smart and I'm just like thinking in my head, how can I, how can I do that too?[00:38:58] Like, that's such a, that's such a great idea. I I've, I've, I've known about obviously certification programs. A lot of them again, when you're looking at the top it's it's, it's all paid. I again, when I look at the things happening in WordPress, because we're so I don't want to say desperate, but we're just so like desperate to get people excited.[00:39:14] We're like, just any, if you could fill out this form, you're a partner. Like if you can get through the capture, you win. They're like, okay, that's the bar we're setting for ourselves. But no, it's great that it's paid. And then, obviously don't have to tell you, but once people are paying for it they're spreading the word.[00:39:29] They want you to succeed. You want them to succeed and it's just those positive inertia in, in that direction. So that's fantastic. That's great to see that, that program, that program working before we hit record, you mentioned that you have a F potentially a new theme coming, anything that you can hint at about that release and why you started to be.[00:39:48] Nathalie: Yeah. So we've actually been working on it for about a year, which is like insane, but it's one of those things where we wanted it to be just right. And there's a lot of options for themes and builders and like Burke and so many things that people can choose from to make their sites look great. And the reason we decided to do our own theme is really just menus.[00:40:07] I know it sounds so simple, but when you have a course and you have our multiple courses with a different menu on each course, it's a lot of work to set up those menus on all those pages and. So that's kind of one of the biggest benefits it will save then you access LA theme. And then it also integrates with all the progress tracking.[00:40:23] So you can kind of see, like, as you're going through like little check marks show up beside your menu and you have your little progress bar that shows you how far ahead you are in a course or program. So we just wanted to make it easier for our customers to make things that look great out of the box if they don't want to hire a designer.[00:40:38] So that's kind of our thinking with that.[00:40:40] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. That's no, that's great. That'll be a huge, I'm sure, again, and just from my work with other LMS plugins, that's, that's always the hangup. It's like, I've got this perfect theme and it serves like all of my marketing and how I want my blog to look and how I want my homepage to look.[00:40:55] And then you install the LMS and it's like, that is the ugliest progress bar I've ever seen in my life. No, it looks like, I don't know what it is like this looks like a geo city site that I built, 30 years ago. Why is it looks so terrible is because it's not styled for it. Right. And it's, that's a huge crux of WordPress and plugin integration.[00:41:13] Are you excited about anything Gutenberg related? That's going to make your life easier for the plugin, for the theme.[00:41:19] Nathalie: Yeah. I really want to love Gutenberg and I think it's getting there, like, no, no, I really think it's we're close. And I think that a lot of people had a lot of. Emotions, let's put them around.[00:41:32] And and I think that we're really, really like if we're not there yet, I think we're like super close to actually having that. So we're actually going to be recommending people, use Gutenberg with theme. So if people don't have another option that they prefer, and I think that's going to be really amazing.[00:41:46] So XSL, it comes with blocks already, so it can do all the things that it needs within that area. I like kind of your main part of your content for your courses and stuff. So I'm super excited about that. And it's actually something I want us to go into more, like, I think that's direction. I really want the plugin to go into Morris, making the blocks even better.[00:42:03] So yeah, I'm definitely all in on Gutenberg, but I think that there's still a lot of resistance from people who are more familiar with it, or maybe haven't played enough with it and feel a little bit of that. Yeah, not too sure about it yet.[00:42:17] Matt: Yeah. In the beginning, everyone was sort of just, throwing their hats off saying why, why, why, why, why do we have this?[00:42:23] But you know, over, over time, like we all should have known like any soft first version of a piece of software. You, we all know it's not, it's not the, the version we are really gonna fall in love with. And it's taken a few years. I certainly enjoy it, but yeah, there's still some things where I'm just like, I literally can't drag this block into a column.[00:42:42] Like the most basic thing I should be able to do ever. I can't do those are some frustrating points and then there's some other awesome points. And I was making a landing page for, at castles today. And, and like the quick commands of like the forest lash and you just hit I, and an image pops up or P for power, like that stuff navigating that is it's fantastic.[00:43:06] Like, it just makes that stuff so much easier, but yeah, there's still some pain points and I think, I think it's going to be another year, maybe two until it's really smooth, especially with full site editing.[00:43:18] Nathalie: Right? Yeah. I feel you on that. And I think it's like, just. Keeping the hope right. That we'll get there and like, just keep them at it, keep it going and just putting our support behind it too.[00:43:29] I think as business owners, we have to say like, no, this is the direction we're presses going in. And we have to put our support behind that too. So that's. Yeah,[00:43:38] Matt: for sure. Natalie Lucier is founder and CEO access. ally.com checkout access, ally.com. If you haven't, if you have a customer or a client or you want to launch your own LMS, check out access, ally.com, Natalie, anywhere else you want folks to go to say thanks.[00:43:52] No, that's[00:43:53] Nathalie: that's fine. Thank you[00:43:55] Matt: stuff, everybody else. My report.com my report.com/subscribe. Join the mailing list. And if you want your weekly dose of WordPress news and under five minutes, the WP minute.com. ★ Support this podcast ★

With any new product, building brand awareness is key. But when your new product is something the world has never seen before, well, you need to do more than just make people aware, you have to educate them, too. As a DTC company, you might have a direct line to your consumers, but you still need to be able to show and teach them as much as possible, and then be there around the clock to answer their questions and hold their hand through the process. It sounds like a lot of work, but when the product is changing the game completely, you have to be ready to get your hands dirty. And that's just what Matt Wall and I chat about today, who is the co-founder of Principle Faucets. Principle Faucets is a DTC brand that has created the first fully-integrated foot pedal system which not only saves water, but is more hygienic and improves faucet functionality. Matt dove into how he and his co-founders brought their foot-pedal faucet to the market, the amount of time it took to test and tweak to make it fit consumers needs, and then he goes into the process of what's it's been like to actually get it in front of people — a task made much harder when the pandemic caused them to shut down their mobile display unit. Here's a sneak peak on what Wall had to say: it takes finding the right niche within the industry and then hyper-targeting your search and marketing terms toward that audience to be successful. Plus, Matt tells us how to market the environmental benefits of something like the Principle Faucet across all different geographies,who are experiencing various degrees of climate change. Enjoy this episode and use the code UPNEXT20 for 20% off on your order at Principle Faucets!Main Takeaways:What's Your Niche?: It's easy to get lost in the deep sea of products that come up when they search a random keyword. You might see people finding your product or website, but the conversions won't be what you want. By dialing in on keywords and long-tail search phrases, you can more easily target the people who are actually looking to buy your product and then get them to convert.Never Before Seen: When you think you have built a better mousetrap, you still need to do market research to see if consumers want what you have to offer. Bringing a brand new company into the world with a brand new product no one has ever seen before is a risk, and you have to do your research before you take the bet to go into a market with a product no one actually wants or needs.Ease Them In: If your product requires consumer education or a change in behavior, it's wise to build in some tie back to what they are already familiar with. Asking a customer to do something completely new is scary, and will turn people off. It's better to give them a way to do a gradual implementation into their daily lives. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hello, and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles CEO at Mission.org. Stay on the show. We have Matthew Wall, who currently serves as a co-founder at Principle Faucets. Matt, welcome.Matt:Thank you. My pleasure to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited. So for anyone who is not going to see video of this, Matt is sitting on top of a mountain at Lake Tahoe and it was teasing us with the view so we can all be very jealous and just let that sink in for a second. That's a first on this interview by the way.Stephanie:So before we dive into Principle Faucets and what it is, I want to hear a bit about your backstory and what even led you to where you are today.Matt:Sure, absolutely. So water conservation was always a big thing for me growing up something that my parents instilled in us myself and my sister living in California, dealing with droughts. And that was a very common thread with both my wife and my co-founder John Porteous. And we just wanted to do something that had impact and was meaningful. And in about 2015, we decided to really change gears and do something different with our lives for a few different reasons. And we bounced around a few different ideas and what stuck was finding a way to use water better in the home. It was something that we were familiar with at that point. My wife Lauren is an avid cook. Again, the water conservation stuff on our side, we just really wanted to do something that was meaningful with our lives.Matt:And we kicked around some ideas and came up with trying to add a foot pedal to a faucet. And at that point the idea just took off and we deviced prototypes and testing them a little bit, our homes and one thing led to another, we got a good response from some of the people that we shared it with. And gosh, we're now 2021 and we just launched the business in October of last year. So it's been a whirlwind, but we've really enjoyed it.Stephanie:Wow. So tell me a bit about, I'm just imagining you and your wife and your other co-founder all brainstorming. What were you guys doing before you even had this idea? Where were you working at?Matt:Sure. I worked for a small startup in the Watsonville area of California. And it's not your typical tech startup, but it was a small company that was started up. I was the first employee outside of the CEO and owner. So that experience in itself was really cool to see a business start and grow from basically zero revenue to there were about 20, $30 million by the time I left. So the exposure to that business was, I've carried a lot of my learnings there through to this business itself. And my wife Lauren actually was diagnosed with colon cancer about the time that we started talking about doing stuff different. So that was a very interesting awakening and really just lit a fire under us. And the fact that the reality of how short life is and all that stuff.Matt:So for her, she really wanted to kickstart her life and do something that's a bit more meaningful at the time. She was a stay at home mom and taking care of our lovely children. And my co-founder John, he has a law background. He was working at the DA's office. And I think in Modesto, California, but none of us were really just loving what we were doing. And we all just wanted to do something that we could just wake up and smile about in the morning and know that what we were doing, had a meaningful impact on the stuff that we really cared about most in life.Stephanie:That's awesome. That's such a good mix of people with different backgrounds and having urgency around it. And anytime, oftentimes you hear it, like the big ideas there are you're right there. There's always something that's there to stop you. I don't know if you've heard that when talking to other entrepreneurs, but there always comes something where it's like, are you willing to go pass this? Are you going to let this set you back? So I love that.Matt:Absolutely.Stephanie:So tell me a bit more about Principal Faucets. So I know it's a foot pedal. Are you constantly peddling? What does it look like as a user?Matt:Sure. The concept that we designed is an integrated system for a kitchen faucet. We have two product families and the integrated full kitchen faucet system is a standalone system. And it comes with our signature kitchen faucet, a little control box, and then our foot pedal that goes in the [Tokic] area of the cabinet. And we also have a adapter system that you can combine with an existing faucet that you already have in your home, in the kitchen or bathroom. So if you're not doing a remodel or needing to replace a faucet, this isn't a great option for you. Excuse me, to get all the benefits of a foot pedal. And the way it works is it can start and stop the flow of water. And it can also regulate the flow of water, like a gas pedal. So when you're working at the sink and you just need a little bit of water, you have all of that flexibility to get full stream and little stream and everywhere in between.Matt:And we really designed these systems to not necessarily replace the existing traditional hand operated way of operating a faucet. We just wanted to give you another option to accomplish those tasks. And I'm sure we'll get into it, but through a lot of the testing we've done and the water savings trials, it's really been interesting to see how people gravitate to using the foot pedal like 60 to 80% of the time, because it just makes a lot of sense. It really frees you up to do all the things you do at the sink a little bit quicker and faster. And then with the foot pedal shutting off the water automatically, as soon as you take your foot off of it, it captures all of those little bits of wasted water in between the stuff you do at the sink. So it's a really interesting win-win interaction with people who use the water and just interact at the sink. So those two products are where we focused right now, and we have plans to expand and move into some different stuff in the future, but that's still to come.Stephanie:I'm just imagining that all my sinks, everything having that, because I mean, like, have you ever measured the amount of germs on a handle? That's the first thing that comes to my mind of like, why are we touching these things in the bathroom? And there was a great skit when COVID first started around hand washing and this guy goes to the bathroom sink, washes it, and then looks around and realizes he touched the faucet afterwards, starts watching it again. Then he realized he touched the soap handles. Then washes his hands again. It's like everywhere and touching things. I'm like, why didn't we do this before? It was just always touching things, of course we're not clean.Matt:Yeah. It's been a really interesting and unfortunately with everything that's unfolded around the pandemic and over the last year. And so the hygiene aspects of our system have been front and center for us in our marketing, as well as just in the overall importance of having something like that in your house, it really does, and is a great solution for exactly that problem. Having to touch the faucet. You can walk right into your house, step on the pedal, wash your hands. You never have to touch anything. And it's great for adults and kids. And it's been good.Stephanie:[inaudible] not holding. I always take my twins. They're 16 months. I'm trying to hold them into the sink to wash them off while messing with the handle. And I'm like, there has to be a better way, there is. That's awesome.Matt:There is, yeah.Stephanie:Tell me about the early days of starting out. I mean, you just launched last year. What has that looked like?Matt:Oh, it's been a lot of work. For us at this point, it's all about driving brand awareness and getting our message out and getting in front of as many customers as possible. So we've been putting almost all of our efforts into just finding very crafty and unique ways with the pandemic to get out and show people the product one of the last January. So January of 2020, just right before everything hit. John and I, we built these beautiful mobile display units. So it has our two products on it, beautiful cabinets, it's modular, so you can wheel it in and out of places. And we had this grand idea, this traveling road show that we wanted to do, we rode down farmer's markets and go to offices and take it to everywhere, any place we could stick this thing and just show it to people, get them to come up and test it.Matt:It's fully functional. So it has a pump inside, self-sustaining electricity, all that kind of stuff. So you could really come up and use it, see it firsthand. And we were so stumped and then everything came crashing down. So...Stephanie:Man, that's a bummer, but it's ready for you now. The market is ready now.Matt:It is, it's beautiful. Yeah. So we really, we love the idea in our kind of direct to consumer model. We want to do that roadshow, we want to be the traveling salesmen again, that connection to our customers. There's no better person to be able to convey the importance, the value and the benefits of the product better than we can. So it's been really cool. We've, had a couple shows this year now where we've been able to take it out and actually gets up and it's been great. It's been a lot of fun. People get such a kick out of the whole concept of being it's a little show. I mean, you do the whole dog and pony thing. So it's been really cool. We're looking forward to doing a lot more of that.Stephanie:That's awesome. So what are your, how many units are you selling today? Was there an inflection point where you changed something in your marketing or you did something a bit different when all of a sudden it's like, boom, now we got to catch up?Matt:Yeah. We were pretty lucky that we pulled in a pretty good amount of product before the pandemic hit. So we've been pretty good on our inventory, but we've seen some pretty steady sales increase throughout the last year with the booms in remodeling and construction. So that's been a really great sustainer for us. I mean our product on our next round of production, we're going to be expanding into two other faucet lines. So we're really excited about that. And that's actually going to be, we should be placing those orders in just a few weeks, which should be here for the basically fall and winter time of this year.Matt:Iteration and changing of the products themselves. We have some stuff that will be changed in this next round, but we've been really happy with the way that product has performed at this point. We have had just great reactions for people who have purchased the product and installed it. And yeah, we're really happy with it at this point.Stephanie:Okay, cool. So when it comes to the product iterations, are you hearing feedback from the customers around different things that they need or was it more internally driven?Matt:No, it's been both. We try and keep in pretty close contact with our customers. We do follow up calls so often as long as they're receptive to them. Using the system, it takes a little bit of kind of, there's like a bit of a breaking in period. So it takes about a week to get used to it, using the pedal. And then once you do that some of the feedback we hear from our customers about it, they hate going to other people's houses because they walk up to the sink in the foot pedal, and they're just trying to tap on the ground to try and get the water to start. But product itself, some of the changes and iterations we want to make are about how the foot pedal itself installs or the toe kick. That was one of the sensitive areas for us in designing the product.Matt:There could be a lot of variation in cabinetry. There's no standard toe kick size. And you look at a modern kitchen versus a traditional kitchen and the cabinetry all different. So we built in an adjustable system so that you can get the foot pedal to the right height and position it optimally for comfort and use. But there's still some work to be done there. I think in getting that more universal for all applications in the cabinets and so forth. The outside of that, we really haven't run into a whole lot of requests for additional features or actual iterations on that the physical product itself, we have had asks for other finishes and designs and that kind of stuff. And it's really painful at this point because there's so much that we want to do with different designs. And I mean, sky's the limit with decorative plumbing stuff. But we got to start somewhere and grow the business and get there.Stephanie:So why did you guys choose to stay strictly D to C or now you starting to think about exploring retail or other spots to sell as well?Matt:When we originally came up with the concept, we knocked around a lot of different ideas and we looked at big box stores, distribution and so forth, but it just never felt right to us. Again, it went back to like, we just didn't want to be another faucet company that wasn't who we were. It, wasn't why we were doing what we're doing. We really wanted to feel like we're a company that really cares about what we're doing. And the way that we felt that was best was to be the first thing people saw when they came to our website and who they talk to and who they dealt with and who was able to handle their customer service questions or warranty issues or product questions. One of the things that's been really fun working with customers, we offer basically free live video demonstration, so you can schedule it to us and we'll set up a camera and use that mobile display unit that we have and walk through.Matt:And it's just so great to see, and the magic between having an intimate conversation with somebody who is interested in and really gets the concept and the importance of it. It's just been very rewarding and fulfilling for all of us. But I think as a business, long-term it's really hard to say. We would like to stay direct to consumer for as long as we can. It just makes sense for us right now. It's and yeah, it's been great.Stephanie:Yeah. So if you're going to stay in that area, I'm thinking like SEO has to be huge, even trying to get up to compete with people like best faucets. If someone sees a foot pedal, maybe they're like, "Ah, that's the wrong thing." So how do you go about reaching new customers and educating them quickly of like, "You could do this instead." It seems like a lot of things you have to think about, and it's not just competing with a traditional faucet. It's like, you have to do both things at once.Matt:Yeah. It's been tough. The faucet industry itself is very consolidated and there's a lot of Moen and Delta, Kohler. They control about 70% of the all sales within the decorative plumbing industry and they pour tons and tons of money into their ad placements and keyword placements and so forth. So we've been doing a lot of work in just trying to optimize our products in that area. So when people are searching for us, we don't want them to search for faucet and have our product come up every single time, we've have really had to narrow in, on our keywords and the short keywords and multi phrase keywords and long tail keywords to get people really want to search for a foot pedal faucet, or are looking for water conservation foot pedal faucets, or those different iterations so that we are able to show up.Matt:We end up spending a lot of money when we first started doing some online marketing, and ad placement stuff where we would get just tons and tons of clicks, but no conversions because they just, people would type in foot pedal and faucet or they'd type in foot pedal control. And things for pianos would come up or pumps for yeah. All kinds of stuff. And so we ended up... That was one of the first areas where we figured we had to dial in and really focus in on that. But outside of that, we're trying to get as much content out there as possible to not only on our website, but just with others. So on social media, Facebook and so forth just to help build some of that the organic growth for us, which has been good, but it's a tough game. There's a lot to do.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, you're innovating in a new market and trying to prove and show people why they need something. We've had a lot of brands on who have the same struggle around like having to educate a consumer. I mean, we had bidet company on here and they talked about most Americans don't think that's even something they would ever need. What channels or pieces of content are you finding are performing best they're going to help with that.Matt:Yeah, a lot of it's just around comparing water usage, which was one of the easiest ways for us to show the savings for the product. It's just showing somebody using a traditional faucet and somebody using our faucet system and the visuals of seeing how much, just no data, no nothing, it's so night and day between the two different systems and just the ease of flow of use. So that's actually been really effective for us. And just capturing and showing what the true nature and difference of that system is versus a traditional faucet. So that's been very impactful. And then in addition to that, delicately using hygiene as some of the ways of showing additional value of what you can bring to the home.Stephanie:Because I was thinking I would lean so hard into the hygiene piece because I had this one image in my head of, it was a piece of bread and it was a teacher who did this at school and they put their hand on it unwashed. And then the other one was maybe wiped down with water. The other one may be used, I don't know, what is it called? The one without water, Purex or whatever. And if there was hand washing with soap and she put them in a bag and left him for seven days, and then it was just the picture showing the seven pieces of bread and what the hand print looked like, very disturbing, maybe realize how gross my hands were, if they're unwashed and even how most ways don't even work that well. And it's interesting to see how just one piece of content was literally ingrained in my brain. And it's been like seven months. You can't get it out.Matt:Yeah. It's on the hygiene side of what we've been doing. It's been, kind of a balancing act because we don't want to scare people into thinking like you have to have our faucet. That's not why we're doing what we're doing, but it is an absolute benefit of having the system in the home. The one really weird twist to this all is when you're marketing things that claim to be hygienic or improve hygiene or kill germs, there's a lot of regulation and requirements. You can be considered a pesticide product. And when we first started marketing our product, there were some issues where we came across where we weren't allowed to show the product online in certain areas because we were being flagged as a pesticide products and it blew our minds that a faucet system would even be considered as a pesticide product, but in the verbiage and the way that we were talking about germs and helping to not spread germs in the home, washing your hands before, so that's been an interesting road to navigate.Matt:We've really kind of had to just do some very kind of common sense type of marketing with the hygiene stuff. You come home, you don't have to touch your faucet. It helps reduce the spread of germs in your home because it's pretty self-explanatory when you really boil it down.Stephanie:Yeah. Oh, interesting. I never even knew that was a thing that you can get around. Yeah. Promoting hygiene. Okay. Have you all explored Amazon or have you not really even thought about that yet?Matt:We have, we're actually selling on Amazon now. And it's been pretty good. It's been an interesting set up process. From the merchant standpoint, Amazon's designed for multiple people to sell off single product pages as a conglomeration of a bunch of people selling the same products so that you get the best price, but we're the only one out there selling our product on Amazon. So we had to go through and do a lot more of the setup process and go through. And the whole pesticide thing that I mentioned was actually as part of what Amazon had us do and go through and acquire. So that took a lot of thinking and figuring out as to why that was happening. But yeah, we got it. Amazon's a great tool for small companies. We plan to stick around there as long as it works for us. And sky's the limit, it's just a matter again, of paying for contents and getting your product placed out in the right spot.Stephanie:Yeah. It seems like there could be so many moments you could create for your customers too, after they buy, just like things like a little card maybe that has a note on the sink, that's like, look down your pedals below for your water, for any of their guests or something. How have you guys thought about shaping the experience, the unboxing experience and then creating joy even afterwards.Matt:Yeah. We focused a lot on the product itself to make a product that was worthy of what we were doing. Quality-wise, construction-wise, materials so that when somebody does get it home and they open it, it looks and feels like something different, something that's a little special. So if we have done some investment in that, the packaging and unveiling of the stuff, we have some really nice dark foam and some nice packaging on the boxes and stuff, which has been a really cool thing to see and fun thing to develop. Long-term, we have tried to build in some features actually to the faucet system itself that allows either new users or existing users to use both the inside of the hand operated valves on the faucet or the foot pedal.Matt:We designed the system. So you never really have to choose one or the other for the Principle Faucets system, the kitchen faucet, the faucet has all of the existing capabilities of the hand operate valve, that's all there, doesn't change. There's nothing you have to do to switch back and forth between the foot pedal and the hand operated valve. So if somebody comes over your house who is not familiar with it, they can walk right up to it, use a hand operated valve, do everything they're used to doing. And if they want to explore a little bit, they can go down and start to use the foot pedal too. One of the features we built into the pedal well to help with the user experience was this, we call it our tapta flow feature, and essentially you just tap the pedal quickly and it'll actually allow the faucet to run continuously without having to keep your foot pedal on it.Matt:So if you're filling a pot of water, you want to feel the same to do dishes. You have that ability. So you're not tied to the sink. If you want to use the foot pedal on that way. With our adapter system, that can be connected to any existing faucet in the kitchen or bathroom. We also built in a feature for that system that allows you to default back to the existing hand operated valves indefinitely, if you choose to, and it's basically, you just tap it twice. And that way, if you have people coming over, using the bathroom or in the kitchen, and you don't want to deal with it you just tap it twice. And all of the function goes back to the faucet as well. So we really tried to bridge that gap so that, new users and existing users don't have any issues with trying to do what they need to do.Stephanie:I could see eventually customers being like, "I don't even want the hand operated piece. Everyone needs to use it this way and just take that off."Matt:I mean, it's been fascinating to see how people gravitate to use the foot pedal. I mean, it's blown our wildest dreams. And the beauty of that is that you get all of the water savings by using the pedal. We'd done some water savings tests when we were initially going through some of the product developments. We did eight homes here in Central California, and some of the homes were multi-generational, they had grandchildren, parents, or grandparents, and some were single individuals. I mean the whole gamut apartments, condos, houses, and we found that the water savings compared to an existing faucet was up to 44%. And when we dove into the data a little deeper, we found that the homes with the highest water savings were the ones that with the biggest water wasters prior. So it really helps the people that ended up using more water save the most which is really a great sign for the impact that the product might have in the future as we get into more and more homes.Stephanie:Yep. Oh, that's really cool. Do you ever have issues with the messaging for consumers outside of California? Because I'm thinking when I'm from Maryland, we really didn't think about water conservation. We didn't have droughts. And I remember moving to California in the Bay Area. I was like, whoa, this is a thing we actually might not have water, what? I mean, I heard about people in Mill Valley area saving their shower water, and doing other things with it. And I was like, this is a new thing for me. So how do you guys go about crafting the message so it connects with people all throughout the U.S.?Matt:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the droughts here in the West are horrible, some of the worst on record. And then you have severe storms and flooding on the other side of the U.S. So the way we've crafted and are working on that message to really join them together is that they're both the products of the same thing. So the droughts here are the product of carbon emissions and global warming and climate change. That's affecting the West in this way, on the East Coast where there's too much water and too much rains, it's all the product are the same, they're all symptoms of the same thing. And for us saving water whether you have too much of it, or you have too little of it, it's all benefiting and helping out the same problem.Matt:It's cutting carbon emissions, it's reducing amount of chemicals that go into the environment by reducing the amount pumped water that needs to be actually treated, transported to your faucet and then goes down your drain without even being used. And then the chemicals that need to be used to treat the water when it goes into the waste facilities. So it's interesting when you think about the two polar opposites of it, but they're all from the same problem. So that's how we've had to craft it. We all need to do what we can do, every little bit counts. And if you can save water at your faucet, it's only gonna help the problem.Stephanie:Yeah. That's such a good explanation. And one that I've never even really thought about, okay, what happens when the water goes down the faucet and all the things that go into it to make it come back again. And yeah, that's a really good way to message it.Matt:Yeah. There's a lot that that goes into treating water, a lot of chemicals and stuff. So, using every bit in a way that counts really helps cut down on all that stuff.Stephanie:Yeah. Very cool. Were there any big bets that you've made over the past year that you weren't really sure if they were going to pay off other than the mobile unit that you guys are wheeling around because that one paid off now, but anything else that comes to mind?Matt:So big bets that we've placed around the business. Being a smaller business as we started and grown, capital's king and trying to figure out how we want to best use some of that money towards marketing and where we wanted to put it into either PR or working with influencers and doing paid content type of stuff. Putting the, I mean, every dollar that we've put into those areas has paid off massively and we didn't go in blindly. We took our time and really tried to find people that got the product and were in similar head space around conservation, water savings, cooking because those are the people who really get it and find the most value in it. So when we've been able to reach out to those people and have them share that message with their base of followers that has actually putting them out of money that we put into that area, it was a good bet. And I'm glad that we did it.Stephanie:Yeah. It sounds like a lot of the themes around your business have been around niching down, niche down with the right people over PR and content is down on the keywords and really getting down to the perfect audience and consumer who's ready to hear that message and ready to buy before going big to everyone.Matt:Yeah. We're a brand that nobody's ever heard of before and we're selling a product that no one's ever seen before. And we found out really in early development when we sat down and just pitched the idea to people, to see if there was going to be a market for this thing. And if somebody had done it beforehand, where did they fail? Where did they succeed? It was really interesting to see how people connected with concepts. And we talk to professional chefs who do a lot of cooking in the home, and they're like, "I've been waiting for this thing forever. How come nobody's done this?" And we talked to people who are doctors and dentists and like, "Oh yeah, I have those at the shop, we use those all the time." Of course, that makes sense to have that home. It just hygiene and efficiency.Matt:And we talked to mothers with kids, fathers with kids, and it all came down to the fact that they would just be like, "Well, why has nobody done this before?" It just makes a lot of sense. And that really helped instill in us the fact that there could be a need for this out in the market. And we ended up going to some trade shows early on just to snoop around because we had getting no experience in the industry at all. We knew nobody, no manufacturers. And again, just pitched the concept to a bunch of the people were there. We were super scared somebody was going to steal the idea out from under us. So we were very coy about it, which is probably silly. But it was interesting to get their feedback and hear what some of the biggest manufacturers in the industry said about it.Matt:And we approached them and early on say, "Hey, we have this concept, is there anything, do you guys want to partner with us or is there any interest in looking at this, we'd love to come talk to you about it." And it's funny. They just never got back to us. Never wanted to hear about it, but-Stephanie:They will. Now.Matt:Yeah, they will now, but even the retail showroom, we stopped in and talked to a bunch of people all over California just about how they show products and discuss it with their customers in the stores. And another one of the reasons why we wanted to go direct to consumer was because of some of the limitations around actually explaining our product to customers in those environments. And in the big box stores, you're just another box on a shelf.Stephanie:Yeah. I was imagining [inaudible] Home Depot, just like a little foot pedal being next to all these faucets and being like, I think this is another mile.Matt:Yeah. And even in retail showrooms... to show people and have them really understand the value of it. You got to use it, or you got to see somebody using it. And that was definitely one of the driving factors for us to want to just be like, we got to put videos everywhere of this thing. We got to build this traveling road show. We just got to show as many people as possible how it actually works, have them come and use it because that's how you connect with it.Stephanie:Yeah, how long was that time period of researching the market and asking questions and having people look at it?Matt:It was a long time. We started first developing this product in 2015 and it was just tinkering around in the garage. I've always loved goofing around and stuff and tinkering and whatnot. So we just decided to do it ourselves. And we build a proof of concept in the garage. Brought it into our kitchen, hooked it up, look terrible, total Frankenstein, hoses and stuff going all over the place. But it probably had about 60% of the functionality that we have in our product now. So it was a pretty good gauge on using it and understanding it. And at that point, that was basically the limitations of our capabilities. So we hired some engineers, excuse me, we hired some engineers to help us of take it to the next step, develop a true prototype that worked like, functioned like what we wanted to come to market with.Matt:And those were the prototypes that we use for the water savings trial here in California. So we had several of those made up. That was probably about a year long process at least. And once we had those prototypes built and got all this feedback from people using them in homes all over, we took a pause at that point. We could have gone and just try to find somebody to manufacture it really fast, but we didn't have the confidence we really thought we needed in order to go forward. So we ended up going to a trade show ourselves and exhibiting with these prototypes. And we built a display unit very similar to the one that we have that we're using for the road show. And we doctored up the display unit with some other prototype boxes and stuff.Matt:So it really looked nice and clean, like a finished product, but it was all frankensteined in the back and using our prototypes. And we basically told people that we were ready to manufacture and gave somewhat of a misleading understanding of where we were in the whole process. But we wanted to see what industry folks, people who were in showrooms in the Home Depos and big box stores of the world, they all came by and they took a look at it. And the response again was just so far above and beyond what we expected that people were like, "Can we get on a waiting list? Where do we sign up? When are these gonna be developed? Can we place an order now?" I mean-Stephanie:Wow.Matt:... we were so unready for all of that, but it was great. And it really gave us the resolve we needed to go forward and find someplace to manufacture this and get it to market. So at that point, after that showing to the industry, we found some folks that well kind of to back up a little bit, we wanted to originally manufacture the product in the U.S. and unfortunately, we talked to large manufacturers here in the U.S., we talked to some OEM manufacturers here in the U.S., and they were either so busy or they just didn't want to deal with a new person or a company that was going to have small volumes to start off. It's a new product, we never developed anything like that before. So we ended up meeting some people at the trade show who put us in contact with some people in China. And we went over there and met with a bunch of different factories and found some just amazing folks to help us manufacture it over there.Matt:And that whole process was a whole story in itself because both faucet manufacturers over there, they're great at building faucets. I mean, there's good and bad factories all over the world. Thankfully we found one that was just a great, great group of people and really focused on quality materials. They were great at faucets, but didn't have a lot of experience in electronics and our systems, kind of a little bit of both. So we had to go in and to go find another manufacturer for just electronic components. But of course the manufacturer is doing electronic components, doesn't want to do any water testing because that's not what they do.Matt:The faucet manufacturer doesn't want to do electronics assembly. It's not what they do. So we had to put together this group of not only components, but manufacturers over there, get them to work together which wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be, but it's been a learning process for sure, because the assembly process for electronic components assembly, the little control box that we have, it needs to be tested for watertight, seals and function, but we had to come up with a way to do that with air testing at the electronics facility, and then come up with a way for our faucet manufacturer to then combine to a final testing of the product to make sure everything worked still watertight and all that, but do it in a way that the water wouldn't interfere with some of the electronic components.Matt:So we ended up doing some iterations kind of, as we were manufacturing with electronic components in particular dialing in adding some actual hardware to the control box itself to allow the manufacturers to speed up the process, make it more reliable. And it was great. I mean, the factories, they have everything you could possibly need to help prototype and do stuff, add components, test components. So it was really cool to see, and we really enjoyed a lot and still do it working with those folks.Stephanie:That's great. I mean, I love that story because so many people right now hear of these DTC companies, just rocket chips, just easy. It looks easy from the outside. And I like actually hearing a real life story of like, "Nope, took a few years, took a lot of testing, had a little hesitancy," and yeah, I mean, that highlights what building a company actually looks like most of the time.Matt:Yeah. It's the most enjoyable thing I've ever done, but it's also the scariest thing I've ever done hands down.Stephanie:I feel that, I feel that. Outside of porter bodies, how they have those little pump sinks, did you ever get one of those and be like, "How do you work?" To figure out maybe like how they function and then have any good takeaways from that one?Matt:Absolutely. We bought and test tested all kinds of stuff. We, I mean, you name it valves, Mike Raj was just an absolute disaster. We had pumps like that physically applying pressure to the pump to get the water to flow. There was pneumatic valve that we were testing, hydraulic valves that we were testing. And it was really interesting. They all pointed us to one direction and we ended up going with an electronic system instead of something that was more mechanical. The issue that we found out with doing something more mechanical, like those pump valves or other industrial metal valves that you can buy for kitchens and so forth. They're very simple themselves they don't require any electricity, but the issue we found with those is if you're going to make a product that is going to be successful in a residential setting for people in homes who have expensive cabinetry, expensive flooring, those other methods were very invasive and destructive to the cabinetry themselves.Matt:If you tried to install them even in new construction, but specifically in existing cabinetry, you had to cut holes, you had to plumb water lines underneath the cabinets where these could happen. You'd never see them until it was a disaster. So we wanted to keep all of that water connections and areas that could leak. We kept them up out from underneath the cabinet, inside the cabinet, where you can see everything, you can know where everything's connected. And we just run a very simple communication line down to the foot pedal itself. So not only do you not have to cut holes in your cabinets, but the foot pedal itself just installs with a couple of screws, you retain all of the existing cabinet space that you have, because Lord knows, we put a ton of stuff under our kitchen cabinets, whether we choose it all or not, is still there.Stephanie:Only one that look under there right now, it's been there for a long time. It's not coming out.Matt:Yeah. In that whole process of really coming up with the way in which we wanted to use what technology you wanted to use, to make it all function correct. We wanted to go something electronic for those specific reasons. It just allows you to install the whole system in a much easier way as well. And we set out initially to design the product so that it a DIY enthusiast, your average we can wire could go and install it in their home. They're capable of into going to Home Depot or Lowe's or something like that to buy a faucet, install it. This is going to be absolutely no brainer for them. But of course not everybody is going to do that. I know plenty of people who just don't wanna install faucet. So we also-Stephanie:[inaudible].Matt:Sure. I mean, it's just the reality of it all and it's all of the connections and fittings that we use to connect to your existing water lines and faucets and so forth and house they're all standardized. So it's all very easy for a plumber to come in and hook it up and know what to do.Stephanie:Yeah, that's awesome. That's the route I would choose unless there was a very easy YouTube video. Maybe I would attempt it. I don't know.Matt:Yeah.Stephanie:Depends how I'm feeling that day.Matt:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:Where do you all want to be in the next year? What are you most excited about?Matt:Oh man. I'm actually most excited about getting some of our new designs in production. We've had a lot of requests for additional finishes and additional designs and even expanding some of our additional hardware that comes with the faucet systems themselves because people have been asking for it and it's been frustrating for us because we're like, "We know, we know we wanted to," but as you grow a business, you got to kind of do it incrementally make sure you're at the right point and then pull the trigger on it. So I'm very excited to see this next wave of products come to the market and then see how they do, it's going to be great.Stephanie:That's great. All right. Well, let's move over to the lightning round when you're on, is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Matt:I'm ready.Stephanie:All right. What one thing do you think will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Matt:I think the biggest thing that'll have an impact on ecommerce in the next year is going to be finding ways in which we can reduce shipping costs. That's been a big barrier for us. It's expensive for everybody. So I'm looking forward to innovations that will be coming to lowering and speeding up product delivery.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. I've heard that a lot throughout all the interviews, so you're all thinking on-Matt:Somebody is going to... Who's working on that.Stephanie:I know. Come on, come on the show, tell us about it. What is the best advice you've gotten since starting this business?Matt:Wow. It's to go with your gut. Collectively between Lauren, myself and John, we've hired a few consultants here and there to help us, and they've been very good at helping guide us in certain areas where we're just deficient in that training or information. But it's really interesting when you look at it and you're like, yeah, that's what we wanted to do the first place. But it, yeah, that's...Stephanie:That's a good one. Even if it takes a few consultants to tell you and you're like, "Oh, okay, I'm just going to go."Matt:You just got to go, you go with your gut.Stephanie:Yeah, what's up next on your reading list or podcast?Matt:Ooh. Up next on my reading list is a book called Conscious Medicine and it's about microdosing different types of psilocybin and a few other things to, how to incorporate that in and use it. I've experimented that stuff over the last year actually, and had some great experiences.Stephanie:Cool. I'll have to check that one out. Sounds good. All right. And then the last one, what's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you in your whole life?Matt:Ooh, man. Probably marry me. I would have to thank my wife for that one. That is by far and away the nice thing. Yeah. I owe a lot to her. She's the woman behind the man for sure. Where I'm off and they are, we work really well together and I'm blessed to have her as a partner in business and in life. So I got a lots of thanks for her.Stephanie:Yeah, that's amazing. All right, Matt. Well, this has been such an amazing interview. Thank you for joining on the top of a mountain. It's been fun just watching what's behind you. Where can people find out more about you and Principal Faucets.Matt:Yeah. You can check us out at principlefaucets.com, got a bunch of good information there. You can explore around and as well as on Instagram just @principlefaucets.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much.Matt:Thank you. Really enjoyed it. 

The important role of an in-house media creator (or content creator) to a brand, especially in the software space, has been a topic weighing on my mind for a while. In today’s episode, I break down a few clips from a recent episode of Bootstrapped Web, where hosts Brian & Joran discuss their challenge of filling this role. I refer to this as Founder Marketing. When a young company is hiring for this role, it’s a responsibility that can’t be left to the fundamental content creation tasks. A capable candidate must be able to channel their inner founder in order to create content that resonates across: sales, marketing, product, and support. Someone that not only knows how to create a piece of content, but that also is as passionate for the business as they are the audience. I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments or engage with the following Twitter thread. My friends @CasJam and @JordanGal are looking to hire for the "Media Creator" role. I do this for @CastosHQ and have lots of thoughts. Someone that can execute, what I call, "Founder Marketing." Let's start a — Matt Medeiros (@mattmedeiros) June 17, 2021 Transcription This episode of the Matt report is brought to you by mal care. Learn more about Malik here at Dot com. You’ve heard me talk about mal care before, but they’re back with some interesting updates. Not only are they the WordPress plugin with instant WordPress malware removal. Well, let me read some of these features.[00:00:15] Deep malware scanning. They know about malware that other plugins don’t. Number two, that one click malware removal process makes it super easy to remove from your WordPress website and number three, a new feature called auto bot ultra defense system. Okay. I made that ultra defense system part up, but get this, it automatically blocks the bots hitting your website.[00:00:35]So, not only does that protect your website, but in the long run, it’ll improve speed of your site from not letting those bots through the doors. Check out mal care at care.com that’s mal care.com. I don’t want to be a malware specialist. You don’t either check out mal. care.com. thanks for supporting the show[00:00:56] Matt: This episode of the Matt report is brought to you by lockdown SEO, you can find it at lockdown. seo.com. That’s luck. With an E. LOC K E D O w N S E o.com. Lock down seo.com. His name’s John Locke. He helps industrial companies with search engine optimization so they can get more qualified leads. If you’re a WordPress developer.[00:01:18] Helping. This customer type. Industrial companies. Manufacturing companies. Reach out to lock down seo.com. See if John can help on the SEO side, if you just do design development. You don’t want to do the SEO part of it, nor should you. John Locke can help you@lockdownseo.com. He also does site audits. So if you want to partner up with John on your next WordPress venture with someone, he can do some SEO audits for you and your John’s a great guy and super helpful. He can help you with your SEO or web design needs. Again, if you don’t service customers in the industrial space manufacturing space, but you do get leads in that space. Send them over to John. At lock with an E lockdown seo.com.[00:02:02] Welcome back to another episode of the Maryport podcast. This is a topic that we’re going to talk about today. It’s called something. I call founder marketing. Uh, my friends, Brian castle and Jordan Goll recently talked about this on their podcasts. They’re both hiring. For this media creator role.[00:02:19] And I guess it’s going to come in many forms. Uh, and fashions. This is something that I do here at my day job at Casos where I create the podcast. I do the YouTube channel. I do some marketing stuff generally is about creating this content. To help. Not only promote, uh, the Castle’s product and the brand.[00:02:38] But to know where the synergies needed to create. You know, sales. Um, onboarding product enhancements, support enhancements, building out community. It’s not just do a podcast. Get listeners get downloads, that kind of thing. Or do a YouTube create a YouTube video. And try to get likes and views and subscribers, although.[00:03:03] It does contain the sum of those many pieces. This founder marketing thing or this creator It’s a bit of a unicorn. If, if I pat myself on the back just a little bit, it’s a bit of a unicorn. Because when you’re hiring for this role, As Brian and Jordan, uh, find themselves in. The challenge is to find somebody who can, can understand.[00:03:25] The business and the opportunity in the market and the customers. Just like the founder. So, this is where I get the founder marketing title from it. Maybe could be ironed out a little bit more, you know, into something else or a little bit something more direct that you could put into a job listing. But the way I see it is as you have to.[00:03:44] Feel like the founder and know the market and the product and the customer, like the founder in order to create the content that attracts. And the customers to it. Otherwise you’re just telling somebody to go create this piece of content and they can shoehorn it. Right. And they people do it all the time. People outsource this to agencies and there’s nothing wrong with it.[00:04:04] But it’s very much from a. A strategic standpoint. Uh, almost utilitarian, I guess, where you make a top 10 list or, you know, do a tutorial or a how to, or comparison piece of content, which can be researched. And understood at that capacity, but the emotional side of it is, is very hard to fine tune.[00:04:28] So on bootstrap web, where Jordan and Brian host their podcast, uh, I’ve had both of them on the show before countless times. They started talking about this journey of hiring this media creator person. So number one, if that’s you check out that episode, it’ll be in the show notes. And reach out to either Brian and Jordan for a potential role. It’s going to be kind of interesting to see them.[00:04:48] Going head to head. In this space and seeing who they hire and how they hire. Uh, I think it’s a great time. It’s a great opportunity for us creators that are out there. So if that’s you. Creating your own little, uh, YouTube channel or podcast. And by little, I mean, maybe you’re just starting out and you’re trying to gain traction, but this could be a great opportunity to say, you know what.[00:05:09] I have a small audience here it’s growing might not be growing as fast as I’d like, but this is an opportunity for us. It really puts the power in the hands of the creators. I think. When software businesses, or any businesses in general think like media companies. Because if you looked at. Traditional Hollywood, let’s say.[00:05:28] And how much of a closed ecosystem that. Well, probably still is, but was definitely 20 years ago. Four. You know anybody to produce a movie, any actors to show up comedians, et cetera, et cetera. And then you look at. Introduction of Netflix, Hulu, Amazon. Everybody is now. Now has this secondary market of content.[00:05:53] Where it’s not just the big television channels and the big movies. So that’s the only distribution points anymore. There are far more distribution points, far more opportunities. For creators to create no, the traditional media that we, that we think about movies and television. Let’s break down a few clips. Uh, I also have a Twitter thread on this, which will be in the show notes. If you want to engage with the Twitter thread and see some of the activity happening over there. So we’re gonna play each clip from.[00:06:20]This episode, the most important clips I think from their conversation. And then i’m gonna break it down uh verbally here okay so let’s dive into the first clip[00:06:28]Brian Casel: The first and most important position I think is, is the media creator, uh, role. And so this is a person who I’m, I’ve been talking to a couple people, but it is a really difficult one to find potential candidates.[00:06:42] So I’m looking for somebody to essentially like co-host podcasts, be a show runner for, for new podcasts, video content produce videos. Um, so somebody who is like a great storyteller and has the technical chops, like the video production podcast, chops, you know, doing interviews with other people, uh, coming up with creative, uh, premises for a new show and just, you know, being like just driving the creative content that comes out of this.[00:07:10][00:07:10]Matt: So we go back to, this is the founder marketing role, right? This is why it’s so important to me. For somebody to have that founder, like experience. Which again, I know it was very difficult. It’s that unicorn position, but I think the best candidate for what Brian. Is looking for. Is going to be somebody who has, uh, that close relationship to the customer, to the product, into the market. Somebody who’s as excited.[00:07:37] For his product. Uh, as they would be, if it were their own product now, again, very difficult to find, but I think that’s where he’s going to find. Uh the best candidate for[00:07:47] Jordan Gal: it feels like what you’re really what you’re saying is that there needs to be a function. That creates an audience and does that by understanding what the audience wants and providing value to it.[00:08:00] And then the media that supports it and delivers that value,[00:08:04] Brian Casel: I would say yes. And coming up with creative, new ideas, like a new new premise, not just find a hundred founders to go interview every week. Like. New angles, new, new premise.[00:08:18]Jordan Gal: that you, you emphasize that in the job listing where it was like, we don’t want to do the same stuff.[00:08:24] We want to really think about why we would do something. And then, and then look at the format that way. Not just, well, let’s just do another podcast because that’s what everyone does.[00:08:34]And this is on the flip side. This is where a great creator is going to really enjoy a role like this because. Which, and I’ll preface this preface, this breath preface with saying that. This is also a challenge for, uh, Brian and Jordan. I feel. Because they have to be hands off. They have to let the creator create because that’s, what’s going to yield the best result.[00:09:01] And if you’re a creator out there, Doing your thing. You know this, you know, that. If there’s less restrictions. Uh, You know, unless sort of control and you have more autonomy to do. What you need to do to create a great piece of content. That doesn’t have to be just a podcast. It spans across podcasts, audio, video.[00:09:21] Written, uh, email newsletter, even if you were doing some kind of like social campaign. You understand where. Your strengths are and how you’re going to communicate this message. And if Brian and Jordan can, can let the creators create, I think that’s going to be the best outcome, but also the hardest for them.[00:09:42] To not manage, but I have expectations for, because I think so many founders might be. Uh, so goal oriented or developer oriented where there’s sprints and there’s sales goals. And there’s marketing goals where like visits and conversions that the creative side is very hard to measure, especially when you turn to them and you say, Hey, I need, I need time.[00:10:05] To do this. The more time you give me the better it’s going to get, but it’s not going to be like this constant production wheel happening. I mean, it eventually will write, like I found a pretty good stride at Casos. But in the beginning it’s like i just need time to absorb this I need the time to look at my creator canvas and i think that’ll be the biggest challenge for brian and jordan moving forward[00:10:27]Jordan Gal: So first step. Audience. And now this technical marketer role is really the transition between the audience and the product.[00:10:37] It’s like the bridge on identifying some people in the audience. Are are, are going to be interested in what we’re doing as a product, not everyone. And, and you’re not building the audience solely for the purpose, like, cause that people see through that you want the authentic version of media and an audience and value and then allowing for a bridge from there over to the[00:10:58] Brian Casel: product.[00:10:59][00:10:59]Matt: And just to wrap some context around this. This is Jordan, uh, explaining back the technical marketing role that Brian also wants to hire. So he wants to. Hire it in tandem. This content media creator, plus a technical marketer to sort of carry the ball. The other. Uh, half of the way down, down the field to use a sports analogy, terrible one at that. But.[00:11:23] Hiring the media creator go out and do the creative. Do the show running, create the actual content, hire a marketing technical marketing lead. To help distribute the content, help convert the content and, and measure the success. Of the content. So number one, very smart move for, uh, for Brian to be thinking that because it can’t, it can be two people.[00:11:47] In a very low pressured setting. Um, and by pressures, not even just the pressures of, uh, of the owners or the other teams, but just the market in general, like how much content do you need to create to compete with others? Uh, how much time do you need for each piece of content? Having somebody else carry the ball. The rest of the way on the marketing side is very smart.[00:12:09] Uh, you definitely gonna need a budget to do that. You need to be able to hire two people at once. Um, you can do it in the beginning. It really depends on what your capacity is as a creator, but also, uh, how you can streamline your processes and, and what the actual overall goals are. So very smart to have these two separate roles, because largely they are two separate. Parts of your brain thinking about how to approach this stuff[00:12:33]Brian Casel: it’s about thinking about that target audience and distribution before we even create. The content. So if the technical marker and myself are in the mix on coming up with ideas in collaboration with our, with our, uh, media creator, It’s about, we know that at the end of the day, we want to reach this segment of people.[00:12:57] So how can we start to come up with creative ideas for, for a show, with an awesome premise for, for that, that, that, that audience would just eat up every single day. And the technical marketer can think about as we’re ideating on this stuff. Okay. If we’re going after that audience, these are the types of channels that we can go to distribute that, that show and grow the audience for it.[00:13:19][00:13:19]Again, this is where I go back. Let the creators create. This will be the challenge. All right. How do we give somebody the freedom, but also at the same time, like push this marketing and promotional thing forward so that we know it’s working. I would say it’s going to take a solid six months in order to really hit a stride.[00:13:37] You know, working together. How content calendars are created, how content is created, how it’s shipped, how it’s promoted, how it’s repurposed. Which is very, very difficult. Two. Even like, think about and make time for it because you, you create so much content. That you just don’t want to let it.[00:13:57] Be done. Right. You spend all of this time, all this investment in it. How do you keep that? Content fresh. Newsletters communities, et cetera, et cetera. So things like that big challenge, but good that Brian’s thinking about it as two independent. Uh[00:14:12] responses.[00:14:13]Jordan Gal: I’m going to argue that there’s a third function, a third role that we we’re going to bump up against immediately.[00:14:23] And that is of community. Because it is a really tall task to ask someone to lead the media creation efforts and also focus on community. Some people are like magically talented and do that almost like inherently. They just can’t even help it. They just create media and form an audience around it and communicate with that community at the same time.[00:14:49] And it can be the same person for a certain amount of time, but they are like, Uh, there’s a third element there around community and fostering it and, and kind of[00:15:00] Brian Casel: communicating with, for that community piece[00:15:03][00:15:03]So my last comment, just foreshadowed this clip. Uh, in, it’s interesting to see Jordan already with the wheels turning you’re you’re already thinking about, okay, what’s that third pillar that comes next and he’s saying it’s it’s community. And it most certainly is maybe not for every product and brand that’s out there.[00:15:22] But the key thing here is that, that. That, even those two people, the creator and the technical marketer. Can not be responsible for. Building and cultivating and supporting a longterm community. Again, everything can be done temporarily. Just won’t be done. Great. And it. Won’t be done. Very organized.[00:15:44] And there’ll be a lot of pressure on one person to do everything. But hopefully what this does is bring it to light. Because a lot of people just say, oh, I’m going to hire somebody who does marketing, oh, by the way, do a podcast, do a YouTube channel, do this marketing thing, report on the metrics. Tell me what the conversions are, do the email newsletter. And can we do it a community with that? I mean, sure. Anyone can tackle all three of those at once, but it’s just going to be done poorly to the point where the person who’s responsible for it is ultimately just going to burn out because.[00:16:16] Uh, approaching a community, which is something that I even struggle with at Casto. So it’s something that I want to do, but I’m quickly realizing I can’t do all the content creation. And do the community well. What I can do is I can see the foundation of the, of the community. I hope. And then that can be carried through.[00:16:34] By somebody else in the future. Uh, or I take it at a really. Minimal viable product approach, where it’s just very, very. Small chunks of what a community aspect might be. And that could just be conversations that are happening. Uh, in a circle app. Right. But a true community is going to be just constant engagement.[00:16:53] Constant engagement, constant, you know, pruning and supporting and making sure people are engaged and that there’s. Value being taken away from it, because if there’s not somebody doing that, it’s very, very hard to get the momentum for our community to take off where it just supports itself. I think a lot of people think community cause they’re like, oh great.[00:17:12] This will be interaction that’s just on autopilot. Yeah, everybody gets into a room and of course they want to talk about. The product, the brand and you know, what their experiences are. But you need somebody. Constantly engaging in that. Again, whole new responsibility, smart to think about it. Smart to think about it as an independent responsibility[00:17:32]Brian Casel: My thinking on that is now if you want like a, like a, an engaged community who, who is interacting with each other. The audience has to come first,[00:17:42] Jordan Gal: the audiences, the is the raw material in some ways that, yeah.[00:17:46] Brian Casel: And, and like for a brand new community, like if you want to start slack group or a circle or whatever you’re going to use for your community, it’s just such an insanely difficult Boulder to push up a hill.[00:17:59] If you don’t have an audience to begin with, or if your audience is very small, because truth of the matter is for every hundred people who follow you. Only five of them or less are the type of people who will actually leave a comment in the community. The other 95 might lurk. They might watch, but they’re just not commenters.[00:18:18] That’s just the nature. So you need thousands and thousands of followers to just spark a community[00:18:25]I think that too early on trying to create a community out of a very small audience, you’re going to waste resources.[00:18:32] You’re going to waste like people or waste hours waste money on a extremely difficult uphill battle.[00:18:40]And that’s Brian, just proving my point. He’s been doing it now for a while. He understands. Um, The challenge of community so i have nothing much more to say on that other than what i just said previous to brian what brian just said in that statement[00:18:56]Brian Casel: especially for that media creator role, it’s a really difficult, I am talking to a couple people, but I think what I’m also starting to look at, I don’t even know how viable this is, is to sort of be like a scout and try to find.[00:19:10] People who have like a small, like a young podcast or YouTube channel or both sort of in the space. And maybe look to acquire them and that show and, and enroll with that, you know, but like how do you find someone who hasn’t blown up yet? You know, um, this is what we talk. You can see, you can see the talent, like on the page and it’s.[00:19:36] So, yeah, so about that[00:19:38] Jordan Gal: too, and this is kind of an opportunity for someone listening or someone that they’re familiar with to just raise your hand and basically say, well, I’m talented. I just need a chance. I just need some budget. I need, I need a bigger stage to perform on[00:19:53][00:19:53]Again, finding this person is. We’ve been talking about all these challenges, but it’s going to be finding this person who, who meets this criteria. Who’s able to produce this kind of content. Uh, it’s just a super challenge. So I’ll speak towards just who the creators are. If you’re a creator out there listening to this, and I can tell you from my firsthand experiences,[00:20:13] You start running with a project. You love the project. You never want to see that project go away. Uh, or yet you could never consider yourself part of another brand. You just let it go. Right. Like at some point you realize like, okay, In order to get better as a creator in order to challenge myself and then move on to something else.[00:20:33] Then, if this is something that’s interesting to you, what Brian and Jordan are talking about. Look. Being able to, Hey, I got my, my YouTube channel up to whatever, whatever your number is, a thousand subscribers, 5,000 subscribers or whatever it is. And you’re, and you’re feeling like you’re hitting a plateau, both from the growth side and from the creative side.[00:20:54] Then you have leveraged there. So I guess what I’m getting at is if you’re building something and you’re not super happy with it, It’s valuable to somebody else valuable to somebody in this position and Brian and Jordan, aren’t going to be the last brands, hiring somebody to create content for them and create to create content well.[00:21:11] That you can leverage that. And I’m not even saying you necessarily get rid of it. Uh, or give up on it or, or, or sell it so where maybe you do sell it. Right. So if you are in the technical space, cause there’s lots of us. That do the technical review, the software. The plugins, the tutorials, that kind of thing.[00:21:29] This would be a great. In road to say, well, look, I’ve, I’ve built up this. Audience. This brand, I have this many subscribers. I’ve had this many videos or this many listeners. Let me sell this value to you and, um, I think that’s perfectly fine. And one that you know is only up to you as a creator, whether or not you want to do it.[00:21:49] But the options are there and the options are, are going to keep coming. I think. Um as more people invest in this space[00:21:56]Jordan Gal: I can’t help, but I keep going back to news, like what’s happening here, industry. Who’s doing what who’s collaborating with, who, who raised money, who hired, who, who left this, who starting something new? Like that’s the stuff you talk about on a day-to-day basis. And I think there’s an opportunity.[00:22:11] To create media around that, that turns that media brand into a destination and somewhere that people look to regularly, and that would be, that would be power.[00:22:24][00:22:24]Uh, the context around this clip. From Jordan was he’s looking for something that’s that’s unique. Like what could he produce? At his new company rally, that would be a unique twist on content creation that isn’t just the interview trans. Uh, the interview podcast or even well, a high produced podcast where it’s more storytelling and engaging.[00:22:46] Um, you know, in much, in much higher production. Is thinking about news and sort of just staking a claim in whatever market you’re in, you can’t report the news and have your unique angle on it. And I totally agree. This is a huge opportunity in this space. For many reasons. One it’s more topical and.[00:23:05] When you’re creating content like this, like I do with the WP minute.com podcast. It’s very specific. It’s very specific to WordPress news. It’s very specific to only five minutes. And that is. The premise there because. I’m serving. I have clear definition of the audience that I’m serving no more, no less.[00:23:26] It’s it’s targeted. So. I know who I’m serving. I know why they listen. And I know how to produce it on repeat. Whereas even a show like this, which is much more long form. Sometimes it’s solo shows sometimes. We’re talking to somebody and doing an interview. You know, it’s 30, 40, 30 to 45 minutes, maybe sometimes an hour. There’s a lot of stuff that can happen. It’s it attracts different types.[00:23:52] Uh, of listeners production is always different. Uh, shownotes are always different. Value is always different. And while it’s it’s great. And it’s, it’s a brand building experience and it’s engaging for a lot of people. Uh, the audience that tunes in and the brand awareness that it raises can kind of be all over the board, which is.[00:24:14] It’s good. It’s still good. Um, but when you do something hyper-focused as a news, Or a super, super hyper-focused, um, maybe educational podcast. Then you just have clear definitions and things or. Are much easier that way. Um, From, uh, from an audience perspective, maybe from the creator’s perspective.[00:24:36] A little bit harder to just stay within those lines all the time. Depending on what it is that you’re, that you’re doing and covering. Uh but definitely easier to create a process for and ultimately uh raise awareness[00:24:49]Jordan Gal: This is the same thing that we talked about with Barstool. Sports wear is a draft Kings, right? The gambling site, they just bought the exact audience that gambles. So it’s very natural alignment. Yep. Yep. Cool man. Well, I have a feeling we’re gonna, we’re gonna talk a lot more about this and we’re going to pretend not to be fighting over people for the same world.[00:25:13] Right. But we,[00:25:17] Brian Casel: so, uh, yeah. What, what else you got going on?[00:25:19][00:25:19]So I’m really interested to see how Brian and Jordan end up, uh, sort of tongue in cheek here, like feuding with one another. Right? Sort of you think about like big Hollywood executives sort of sparring over the, the, the, the best actors and actresses and best, uh, directors and, and scripts to buy. And, and, and it’s almost like that huge.[00:25:40] You know, world of Hollywood that’s feels so water out of touch being really shrunk down to this, you know, finite thing that could be. Uh, happening across many brands trying to hire talent. Um, trying to find the talent is a challenge at a higher them trying to acquire them. Put a number on it. It’s very difficult.[00:26:01] Uh, and to find the right person to do it all. So it’s, uh, I I’m sitting here smiling ear to ear because I’m really interested to see this challenge unfold for both of them and how they both go about it. And interested to see if they do cross paths and find somebody who has applied to both because they have a strong listenership. And if you are listening to this, you could be applying to, to their job openings as well.[00:26:23] Um, But at the same time, lots of opportunity in this space now. And I think this is sort of validating it. This founder marketing role. Um, And I think that there’s going to be a lot more of this happening. Because there’s a lot of, at least in the WordPress space. And even the people that I talk to now and know code and software as a service.[00:26:44] Founders are either. Hyper-focused on sales. And growth. So that’s the other angle of it. This is stuff that you need sort of after, I’ll say with air quotes, after the content creation. Um, or they’re they’re founders and they’re the founder developer, right? So they’re actually building the product. There’s no time.[00:27:00] Uh, there’s no creative aspect. There’s no social aspect for some to just get out there and create that content. So. Big big opportunities ahead. I don’t know. Let me know what you think if you, uh, are interested in, uh, number one, applying for that role, check out the bootstrap web podcast. What Brian and Jordan are doing. Jump on that Twitter thread, click on that in the show notes. And you can just engage with them right there. If that’s the quickest route to it. I have a let me know what you think about founder marketing right on twitter okay that’s it that’s the Matt report. we’ll see you in the next episode[00:27:30]

The roundtable interview with Matt and Caleb Maddix and a small group of people who are trying to change the world. Enjoy part three of this special 4 part episode series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to The Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you've been enjoying this series so far. This is The Roundtable of World Changers, a conversation I had with Matt and Caleb Maddix, and a whole bunch of young entrepreneurs, who are literally out there trying to change the world. This is part three of a four part episode, because the conversation went for three or four hours. And so, this episode's also going to be about 40 minutes long, and it's the next set of questions they asked me. And if you've listened to the last two, you know that these guys ask a lot of questions, in a lot of different directions, and angles, and went all over the place. And I think this time is probably 01:00 or 02:00 in the morning. And so, the questions started going from everywhere, from business, to relationships, to families, and a whole bunch more. So I hope you enjoy this next episode. Here's some of the bullet points of things you're going to learn about. We talked about the 10 commandments of marketing. I talked about my very first mentor, and a thing he taught me, not just to make money in the short term, but how to build a business that now has lasted me for almost two decades. I talk about one of my friends and mentors, Daegen Smith and something that he taught me. It was so simple, yet it's been the key to help me get thousands of people a day to join my email list. We talked about leadership, delegation, scheduling. We talk about, as you're building a team, understanding people's unique abilities. Talked about how much time you spend thinking about the future. Talked about proximity with billionaires. We also talked about how to balance your business and married life, so you can be a good husband and a good father, which is something that I stress about all the time. We talked about a principle that I learned from Stacey and Paul Martino, that has been one of the most powerful things I've learned, which is called demand-relationship. I talk about that. We talk about some relationship tricks, for those who are either married or getting married. Some of the newlyweds, and the engaged couples, were asking some questions about that. Hopefully I don't get in trouble for sharing some of my tricks. We talked about knowing what your values are, and your priorities. Talked about being vulnerable, and being honest, versus staying positive through challenges. We talked about some of the biggest principles and things I learned from Tony Robbins, including how to change your state whenever you need to. And we talked about my 12 year relationship with Tony Robbins, and all the things behind that. We talked about... I don't want to spoil any more. You guys, this is a fun interview. And hopefully, you've been enjoying these so far. So with that said, we're going to cut to the theme song. When we come back, we're going to take you guys immediately back into this conversation. This is, again, The Roundtable of World Changers, part three of four. Matt Maddix: Let's say there was a Russell Brunson 10 commandments. You know how God had one. Russell: Thou shall build a list. Matt: Yeah. How high is this in the 10 commandments? Russell: My first mentor, Mark… Matt: And what would be some of the Russell Brunson... Let's come up with some of them. Like, "Thou shalt..." Russell: We need some stone tablets. Matt: "To all the funnel hackers, thou shalt and thou shall not." I want to hear- Russell: That would be a fun presentation, actually. Matt: Yeah, that would be, actually. Caleb Maddix: That would be. Russell: That would be cool. Matt: Dude, you need to do that. Russell: Come back from the mountain, we have 10 things. Matt: Yeah, seriously. Caleb: Wow. That'd be awesome. Matt: No, the five 'thou shalts', and like, "Thou shall..." and then- Russell: "Thou shall..." Matt: ..."Thou shall not, no matter what..." What would some of those be? Russell: That could be a really cool presentation, actually. Well, so I would say, in my first venture was Mark Joyner, and he was the one... So in context, in history, 18 years when I started, Mark Joyner... I don't think it's probably known. He's brilliant. But he built a company, and sold it off. And at the very end of his career as a coach person, I got to meet him and get to know him a little bit. But I remember, at that time, Google AdSense was this thing that came. And so, if any of you guys are old enough, just try and remember the Google AdSense days. It was insane. They were software. You click a button on software, it would pop out of site, pop out another site. And these sites would make anywhere from 100 to $1000 a day. And you just keep clicking this button, it would pop out another site. And so, people were making $1 million a month. They had teams in the Philippines, that these guys just clicking the button to build the software. It was just... But it was all fake. But it was tons of money. Insane amounts of money. I had friends making so much money. And shiny object, very shiny object, the most sexy shiny object of all time. You click a button, you can make $1 million. That was it, that was the pitch. And it was true. Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: For so... Everyone I knew. Can you imagine that? Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: If I go back in time, 18 years ago, I would move to the Philippines, I would hire everybody, and we would just click buttons. And I would've been- Caleb: Wow. Russell: ...a billionaire. It was- Caleb: Wow. Russell: It was insane. That's how Google got people adopting the AdSense program. So people would put ads on every single site, every single everything. And so, I'm getting in this game, I'm seeing this, and I'm morons making insane amounts of money. And I was like, "Ah!" And Mark had just become my mentor, the very first time, and he's like, "That's going to go away. Focus on building a list." I'm like, "But this guy's a moron. He made $1 million last month clicking a button. No strategy, no brains, no nothing." He's like, "I know, but it's going to go away. Focus on building a list." I'm like- Matt: Wow. Russell: But- Matt: Seriously? Russell: "He's clicking a button. Building lists is hard." He's like, "Build a list." I'm like... And I remember fighting him and fighting him, he's just like, "Dude, trust me. I've been on cycle. It's going to go away. Just focus and focus." And I was so upset, but I listened because I do that. One thing I pride myself on, I'm very coachable. Coach tells me something, I do it. I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. Matt: I love it. Russell: They tell me to do it, I do it, right? So I was like, "Ah, but there's free money in piles-" Matt: Even when it's hard- Russell: "All right." Matt: ...you do it. Russell: So I did it. And sure enough, I was doing that, and doing that, within six months, this things collapsed, disappeared, destroyed people's lives. Because you're making $1 million a month clicking buttons, what do you do? Especially as a young kid. Matt: Spending that much money. Russell: You're buying Lambos, and Ferraris, and helicopters, and pilots, and girls, and insane amounts of money. And then it disappears overnight. Devastating, ruined these guys, ruined them, so many people. Matt: There's no skill behind that at all. Russell: Yeah. And I had a list, and I just coasted through it. Right? And I've looked at the SEOs, every single up and down, up and down, through the years, and I just listened to Mark and just focused on building my list, focused on building it, and- Matt: So you still feel that as strong today, as when you heard it? Russell: 100%. Matt: Even then. Russell: 100%. That's one of our KPIs. How many people doing lists today? Every single day. Matt: Really? Everyday? Russell: Everyday. Because I did it for a long time- Matt: Even now, you're saying? Russell: 100%, everyday. John Parkes everyday sends me a number. “How many people joined our list yesterday?” That's all I want to know. Caleb: What's your guys' email open rates? Russell: It fluctuates. 20 ish percent. Caleb: Okay. Russell: Around there. But it was funny because I remember, I had forgotten that lesson after a while. And if you guys know Daegen Smith, Daegen, he's getting back in the game now. He's brilliant. But I remember I had a list, and I was my money off of it. I wasn't focusing on it. And I remember he asked me a question, he said, "How many..." It wasn't, "How many people are on your list?" Because that's what most people ask, "How big's your list?" But he asked me a different question, which input output, right? Matt: Yeah. Russell: The question was, "How many people joined your list today?" And I was like, "I don't know." He's like, "Go look right now." I'm like, "Okay." So I log in, and look at the thing, it was like 12. And I was like, "12?" And I was like, "Is that good or bad? I don't know." And he's like, "Let me show you mine." And he showed me his, and it was like 1400. And I was like, "You had 1400 people join today?" He's like, "Yeah." "Wait, how'd you do that?" He's like, "I just look at it everyday. And when I look at it everyday, somehow it grows." And I was like- Matt: Wow. Russell: "Okay." So then, everyday, after I log in and look at my thing, it was like 12, I'm like, "Ah." In my head, I'm like, "Fricken Daegen had 1400. I only 12." Caleb: Yeah. Matt: Wow. Russell: And also, I was like, "What do I do to get people to join the list?" Matt: Yeah, start optimizing. Russell: And then, your mind starts thinking differently, and all of a sudden you start focusing on it. And it's crazy. I can't tell you how many entrepreneurs, that have been in my world, who have gone up and then come down. And what happens, mostly, is they do something, they build a big list, they stop adding fuel to the fire, they have this list, they sell things to the list, the list atrophies, and eventually starts shrinking and dying. And then, they don't know how to build lists, the business crashes and dies. Matt: I hope you guys are really listening. Really. I mean, he's- Caleb: That's powerful. Matt: ...saving your life right now. Russell: The question, the goal, every single day, is that, because it's a fuel to your fire. And what happens was you stop putting fuel on the fire, and it doesn't die immediately. So you're like, "Oh, I've turned off Ads, so I'm good. But I'm just going to focus on emails, let's focus that." But just every email you send out, your list atrophies, shrinks, dies. And then, eventually, it'll just die. And so, yeah, if you're not consistently, constantly feeding the list, every single day- Matt: And once you have the list, what's the biggest mistake people make with their list? Russell: They don't email it. Matt: Yeah. Russell: They're scared to... You think it's too much emails. It's not, it's the opposite. It's that they don't email. Caleb: Okay. Russell: Minimum of three times a week. Closer to everyday. Matt: Wow. Russell: If you talk to Daegen, it's twice a day, everyday. Matt: Really? Caleb: What other KPIs do you have sent to you every single day? Russell: I want to know how much we made yesterday, striped. Because first off, it's cool to know. Caleb: Yeah. Russell: But second off, also it's like, I want that number to be bigger everyday. So it's like, actual money in the thing, how many people joined the list today, and how many books are sold, how many ClickFunnels members. Those are the ones for me. Our teams have other KPIs they focus on. But those are the ones I care about. Matt: So out of 30 days, when you hear the numbers, how often are you pissed and how often are you like, "Yeah."? Russell: Nowadays, it's always pretty good. Matt: Nowadays, it's like, "Woo." Russell: Because it might go up or down a little bit, but the numbers are big enough, that it's just like, "That's so crazy." I remember... Anyway. I remember just the growth of ClickFunnels, because you know Stripe dings every day with your numbers. I remember when we started going, it got to the point where it's like $10,000 a day, I was like, "$10,000 a day is insane. That's just so cool." And then, it got to a point where it's like $20,000 a day, and then 30, and then $50,000 a day, and then $100,000 a day, and then 150, then 200, 250, 300. I'm just like, "This is insane to me, that this is a daily thing that come..." it was just... Anyway, that's when it got just weird. And it makes me mad because Todd made a commitment to me, that as soon as we passed $500,000 a month in sales, he'd move to Boise. Matt: And he didn't yet? Russell: No. So... Matt: You were out of there already. Russell: And then, I was like, "Well, we have $500,000 a day." And then, he still hasn't come. So I don't know. Some day. Do you think Todd will ever move to Boise? Speaker 4: Plus I'm curious if I could pop in to ask a question. Russell: Yeah, feel free. Speaker 4: I've always wanted to ask someone of your stature, that's done as much as you have, impacted as much people as you have, and really built the business that you have. So I'm curious on your take on leadership, building a team, delegating, and your schedule and how you go about scheduling your day, and prioritizing what's important for you, as a business owner, and what you delegate to your employees and their responsibilities as well. So leadership, delegating, and scheduling. Russell: Good question. It's interesting because I would say I'm not the best leader on my team, by any stretch. And so, it was interesting because I spent the first four or five years with ClickFunnels as the CEO, trying to do my best with it. But it wasn't my unique ability, is leadership. I feel like I'm good at leading a community, but I struggle a lot more with employees and teams, internally. And so, about a year ago or so, I handed the reins to Dave Woodward, to be the CEO of ClickFunnels. And he's been amazing. Man, what he's done inside the company has been awesome. And I think a big part of it is understanding, at least for me personally, I was trying to be a leader, and trying to develop that, but I wasn't the best at it. And I think sometimes we think it's always got to be us. Like, "It's my company, I got to be the CEO. I got to be the leader. I got to do these things." It's understanding that a lot of times there's people who are really good. Who's the best you could find to be that? Or any part of our business. You know what I mean? It's a big part of it. The second thing is, if you've studied Dan Sullivan at all, one of his biggest things is unique ability. That's the thing. What's your unique ability? What's everybody's unique ability? And I think when you start a company, it's tough because it's like everyone's in charge of everything, right? I'm the CEO, but I'm also taking out the garbage, I'm also doing... everyone's Speaker 4: Yeah. Russell: ...doing a little bit of everything, which is cool. When you're scrappy in the beginning, that's important, and everyone's doing that. But as you grow, that starts hindering you more and more and more, where we had people who are insanely talented, who if I could just get them doing this thing, 100% of the time... And that's when it got to the point with ClickFunnels, is that my unique abilities are writing, are being in videos, are building funnels, doing the... Those things are my unique abilities. Caleb: Engineering. Russell: Yeah. And I was spending maybe 10% of my time on that, and 90% of the time in meetings, and trying- Matt: Wow. Russell: ...coordinate people, and leadership. And it was stressful and it was hard. Matt: And you were draining. You were probably drained doing that. Russell: Yeah. And I was miserable, that was just... I wasn't good at it. Not feeling good, like, "Ah, I'm not getting through to people. I can't figure this out." But I felt like I had to own, I had to be the guy, I had to do the thing because this is my baby, this is my business. And the last 12 months has been crazy, because I handed it to someone who actually is good at that, that is his unique ability. And I'm watching company structure, and meetings, and KPIs, things that I was never super good at doing, and consistently having it all happening now. And now, I'm in the marketing department again, and I'm building funnels. People are like, "What do you do all day?" I'm literally in ClickFunnels, building funnels. "No, but you have funnel builder..." No, I'm literally in ClickFunnels, building funnels. I didn't start this business because I wanted to be a CEO of a big huge company. I did it because I love building funnels. I'm an artist, when it comes down to it, this is my art. Matt: Wow. Russell: And that's what I get to do now. And it's amazing. So Dan's got Fridays we book out, and we spend videos, he's got a whole bunch of YouTube videos, we film five or six YouTube vlogs last week, on Friday. So we have that times blocked out to do that, right? I'm writing my next book right now, so I've got my mornings blocked out to write books, because that's when my mind's got not a million things so I can do that. And then, after morning comes in, after I do my wrestling practice, I come in. And that's my teams there, and that's when we're building funnels. I got my designer and my copywriter, the people, and I get to facilitate that. And I feel like the... What's the guy in the orchestra, the maestro? Caleb: Conductor? Russell: Yeah, like I'm the conductor, I'm conducting all these talented people. And everyone's bringing... And I'm alive, and it's exciting. And at night, I can't sleep, because I'm excited again. And so, I think that's the biggest thing, is taking the pressure off yourself if you're not the best leader. That's okay. What are you the actual best at? And success, in business, I think, at least for me, I always thought I had to be the best at everything. And it's the opposite, where it's like, "How do you focus on the thing you're best at? And get the rest of the people around you." Speaker 4: Yeah. And it gets- Matt: And it's... You had to have been willing to let go of your ego, man. Or you wouldn't have been able to grow so much. If you try to do it all yourself... Caleb: So I have a question. How much time do you spend actually thinking about the future? Because it seems like, from what you've told us, you're very dialed in and obsessed on the process, and that's how you've gotten to where you are, up to this point, because you're in love with the game. How much of your time do you spend thinking about the future, and what's on the horizon next year, five years, 10 years? Does that cross your mind? Or what does that look like? Russell: It's interesting, I can't remember who was talking to about this... The further out you look, the fuzzier it gets. You know what I mean? And so, I think for me, it's like we have... I know where I want to go, but the in between is really, really fuzzy, right? It's hard to know. And so, it's like I know... For me, the last big boat was $100 million, the next one's a billion. So we know there's the thing. But it's so far from... I don't know the steps to get there. You know what I mean? And so, for me, it's more like, "Well, here's where we're at." In fact, that was my... We had a chance, last month, to go spend a day with Tony Robbins, and we each had a chance to ask him one question. So that was literally my question, just like... Matt: What was your question? Russell: My question... It'll be a blog soon. Not yet though. No, but it was basically like, "We've gotten to this point, and I know to get to the next goal, the things we've been doing are great and they got us to this point, but I have to think differently to here. I don't know how to think differently. How do you think... It's not another book I'm... Is it a book? How do I think differently?" And what Tony said, that was... it's a very... He said a lot of things, but one of the big things was like, "Proximity is power," like, "You have to be in proximity with people who have already accomplished the thing that you're trying to do." And it was interesting because I look at the path of how I grew ClickFunnels, I did that 100%. I was like, "All right, who are the..." and we found the people, got proximity, and then grew it to this point. So eventually, we kind of coded out of the people who I was aware of. So I asked Tony, I'm like, "Well, where would you go to?" And he's like, "Well, if it was me," he's like, "Who's built the billion dollar company?" He's like, "Marc Benioff." And he started naming all these different billionaires. And this and that, all these things. And I was just like, "I never even assumed those people could... I could be..." it seems so far away. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's..." Having a proximity to those people, and start thinking differently, because I don't know the journey but they've done it. Because someone in our world, and like, "How do [inaudible 00:16:13]?" I'm like, "This is literally a 13 minute project. There you go. [inaudible 00:16:16]." It's like I've done it so many times, it's not hard, right? But for them, it's like this is the rocket science to figure it out. And then the same way with these guys who have built billion dollar companies. So now it's trying to proximity to those people, and trying to get around them, and trying to figure out the journey. So the first thing we did, literally, I got out with Tony, Tony gave the answer to the question, and I knew the first guy I needed to get into proximity with. So I texted Dave, Dave called him up, we brought him on retainer. And now, we've got him an hour a week, to get on the phone with him and just ask him all of our questions. And have him introduce us all the different players at that next level. So a lot of it's that. Dave, who's the CEO, was very focused on all the... He's very much like, "Okay, first, to get to this goal, we have to have everyone here, here, here. These are the percentages, the numbers, all the..." Those things stress me out, I hate spreadsheets. He's always got spreadsheets. But he comes back with all the spreadsheets, I was like, "All I need to know from you is... Because I'm going to be building a funnel. What's the goal? What do you need from me to be able to do that?" He's like, "We need more ClickFunnels trials." Like, "Done. I can... Okay. That's where I'm going to focus my energy." And then, it's like, now I can creative on that piece, because I know this is the metric that I can do, with my skillset, to drive it. And everybody's got a metric, right? The traffic team, everybody's got a metric. But for me personally, it's like the only thing I actually affect in a short term, micro, and then I can focus all the creativity and effort on that, while trying to figure out how to shift my mind set to be bigger, to... Caleb: If Marc Benioff offered you $1 billion for ClickFunnels, what would you say? Speaker 4: Good question. Russell: I'd ask him for five. Matt: Good response! Rob: Can I ask you a question, outside of business? Matt: You asking a question? Oh. Rob: Yeah. Matt: Oh, go ahead. Rob: So I remember you were talking about your wife earlier, with how you wanted to get her the couch. Me and my fiance actually met at ClickFunnels, at your event. Matt: Yeah. Rob: So- Matt: ClickFunnels wedding. Russell: No way. Rob: So what I'm curious about is- Russell: Am I going to be the best man at the wedding? Caleb: I told you, you've got to come, I'm like, "You've got to invite Russell." Rob: So what I wanted to ask you is, obviously you run a nine figure company, and there's a lot that goes into that, how do you balance with, let's say, number one, your wife and then your kids as well? And then, what is your secret to a really successful marriage, that's worked for you? Matt: Dude, what- Rob: I think that's something that many entrepreneurs have good marriages that don't really get asked about. So I was just curious about that. Matt: Yeah. Russell: So I hear three questions in there, right? So balance, happy wife... What was... There was a third one? Caleb: Kids. Rob: Yeah, just balancing it, running a company. I mean, you do all these things, you also have a wife, you have kids. Russell: Yeah. So I would say a couple things. So number one is balance is this thing that we all, for some reason, in our mind, we all seek after. But everything great in my life has come from times of radical imbalance. When I wanted to become a wrestler, I wasn't a great wrestler because I was balanced, it was because I became radically imbalanced in that thing. Matt: Dang. Russell: It became the most important thing in my life, and everything else suffered. But I had to do it to be considered successful. When I met my wife, we didn't create a great relationship because we were balanced, I became radically imbalanced. And all my time and effort and focus was on her. And that's why it became great. ClickFunnels, same way. We built ClickFunnels, I was not balanced. We had to become radically imbalanced for a season, to focus actually to get... So that's the thing to understand. In anything great in life, you can't do it in a point of balance. It's radical imbalance that causes greatness. Matt: And that's golf. Russell: And so, you got to be okay with that. But it can't be for forever. It's got to be something that goes, and it comes and goes. Because people who get radically imbalanced for a long time, they can lose their family, they can lose their kids. Rob: Was there a point where you had to tell your wife, "Hey, this is what I really want to do."? Russell: A lot. She had to- Rob: And she had to just- Russell: ...be on board with- Rob: ...get on board. Russell: She had to get on board, yeah. And if she wasn't, I had to say, "Okay, what's more important?" If it was her, then I had to say no to that. And there's been many opportunities in my life I've had to say no to. Rob: What's that dynamic like, being that guys are together, just as far as working out just normal little things? Russell: So I- Rob: Just decisions, those kind of things. Russell: Yeah, well, marriage, you're going to find out, it's hard. Just so fully aware. No one told me that, going into it. I was like- Matt: Yeah. Russell: I was like, "This is going to be amazing. This is going to be the greatest thing in the world." And it is, it's awesome. But man, it is way harder than I thought. Rob: Just to be a person. Russell: Yeah, someone's... I, actually, I would highly recommend Stacey and Paul Martino have a course that my wife and I have gone through the last year, and it's amazing. There's a principle they teach about demand-relationship. If you just go through their... They have a 14 day quick start, it's like $100. But if you just learn the principles of demand-relationship, what they teach. The biggest game changer in a relationship I ever... Of all the things I've studied... Rob: Why? Russell: It is amazing. Rob: What was your take-away? Russell: The principle of demand-relationship is that, throughout history and society, the way that most of us get things done is that... So in a relationship, there's a power player, and there's someone less, right? And if I want my wife to do something, I'm going to demand, like, "I need you to do these things." Right? And that works, until the other person has the ability to leave. So prior to divorce being a thing, men, throughout history, have had a dominant relationship over women. They used to manage and get what they want, and women couldn't leave. And so, it was a horrible thing, right? But they couldn't leave. As soon as divorce happened, boom, it started happening. Right? When parents come over to their kids and give demand-relationship, as soon as the kids are able to leave, it breaks. And then, breaks his relationships. And so, that's the problem, is that for the last 5000 years, that's been our DNA, that men force women to do these different things. And that's what the demand-relationship is. Their whole training, their whole course, everything they teach is the opposite of demand-relationship. How do you create a relationship, where transformation happens through inspiration, not through demanding, and chasing. And it's tough because, for all of us, especially men, it's been so ingrained in our DNA that if we want something, we... That's how we do business, how we do things. But in a relation, especially an intimate relationship, it's the worst thing that could possibly happen. And that's what we all do. So it'd be worth... I'm hoping she writes a book some day, because it's... In my new book, I have a whole chapter, actually, teaching her framework on in demand-relationship. What's that? Rob: Were you high school sweethearts? Russell: College, we met in college. Rob: So she was with you before you started... Russell: Yeah. Rob: ...and had the huge success- Russell: Yeah. Rob: ...basically. Russell: Yeah. Rob: What was that transition like, from you guys, I guess, being... struggling, and you guys stay together- Matt: Good questions, Rob. Rob: ...to now- Russell: His mindset's on this. Rob: Yeah. Russell: Going into it. Rob: What is that like? I'm just curious, because I mean people don't really talk about this, I guess, a lot. Caleb: Relationship genius. Russell: Yeah. And it's different, because some relationships, both the people are in the business, some aren't. My wife's not involved in the business at all. She... Rob: Oh, okay. Russell: ...doesn't understand it, and she doesn't want to be part of it. And that's okay. It's like sometimes that's been the biggest blessing for me, sometimes it's been hard. Caleb: Yeah. Russell: Right? Sometimes I see the power couples, who are both in the business, and it's really, really cool. But I ask them, and they're like, "Sometimes it's a great blessing, sometimes it's really hard." So there's pro's and con's both ways. But I think the biggest part is just, this has been good for our relationship, and at first we didn't always have this, but it was like... Just figuring out how to get... You both have to have that same end goal, otherwise you're fighting against each other, right? And so, when we were building ClickFunnels and stuff, it was hard at first, because she didn't really... She's like, "What are you guys doing? You spend all this time and..." didn't understand it. And it was tough because I was trying to explain it. And luckily, for me, is that Todd was part of this too, and his wife was kind of struggling. So they had each other to kind of talk through it. But it wasn't until the very first Funnel Hacking Live, where... Because my wife had never been to one of my events before, anything we'd really... She knew what kind of we did, but not really. And she came to Funnel Hacking Live, the very first one. And she didn't come down at first, because she didn't realize what was happening. And she was doing some stuff, and then, she came down with one of her friends and walked in the back of the room, and saw all the stuff. And she started just crying. She was like, "Oh, this is what you're... I had no idea this is what was happening, and what was..." And then, it became real for her. And that was such a huge blessing for me, because now, the next time, it was like, "We have to work hard for this." Or, "We're planning for..." whatever, she was able to see this is the fruits, and like, "Oh, that's why you're doing it." Now, if you notice, my wife's, every Funnel Hacking Live, front row. She doesn't understand a word we're saying, but she's there, she's paying attention, because she's like, "Look at all the people, and their lives are changing, and impacting." And now, it's different, where when I got to do work, work late nights, or whatever, she sees the vision, and she's on board with it. So it makes so much easier. The other secret I learned is if I tell her, if it's like 05:00 at night, I'm like, "Crap, I got to stay late tonight." And I call her at 05:00 at night, nothing good can come from that. It's better if you just go home, right? If I know Wednesday night, I'm going to be working late, I tell her Monday. Like, "Hey, Wednesday night, there's a good chance I'm going to be late." And then, if I tell her that, she's totally cool with it, right? But you don't tell them the day of. It'll destroy your marriage more than anything. Matt: That's good wisdom. Russell: The other secret, this secret don't put on camera, I don't want my wife to... Matt: Is that right? Russell: Yeah, if I have any inclination that people are coming to town, or something's happening, I always like, "Just so you know, next week, Matt and Caleb are coming to town. There's a good shot we might go to dinner at night, just so you're fully aware." And she's like, "Cool." And then, it's fine. The other secret, this is the real one. So don't share this outside this room. Speaker 4: This is the off camera one. Russell: Yeah. So especially after... For my wife and I... So we started having kids, the same time I started this business, right? And so, I'm traveling, I'm going to events. And she's at home with the kids. And so, we never traveled before, so I'm going on these vacations, I'm meeting these cool people, I'm in hotel rooms. So every night, I'm getting back, and I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And I'm like, "Okay, I met so and so, and then..." all these things I'm so excited, so pumped about these things. And I'm telling her about stuff, and she's at home with twin babies, miserable, tired, horrible, feet hurt, body hurt. And I'm out having the time of my life. Matt: Yeah. Russell: And I'm thinking she's going to be pumped for me, right? Matt: Right. Russell: No. And for probably a year or so, I was just like... And then, one day, I remember I'm at some event, and I get cornered by people. And then, introverted Russell's like... anxiety, and it was horrible. And somebody cornered me in the bathroom, and asking me questions while I'm peeing. And it wasn't even... At least, sometimes, most of the time, they fake pee next to you, so at least it's not awkward. He was sitting next to me, watching me pee. I'm like, "Can you at least fake pee?" And so, anyway... It was so bad. And I got home that night, and I call her on the phone, and I was just like, "It was horrible." I went off about how horrible it was, and I was miserable. And she's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry." But then, she was cool. It was awesome. And I was like, "I didn't get in trouble." And so, the next time I went out, I got home that night, call her, I was like, "Oh, it was horrible. My feet hurt, my back hurts." Anyway, and I've told so many people this, entrepreneurs and friends, who do that, and they shift... Because they don't want to hear you're having this... Anyway, is this truly good or not? I don't know. It saved my marriage. Matt: Is it true? Russell: Literally saved my marriage, and it saved so many of my friends, who… so many of friends, who had the same thing. They want to hear the stories, but not in the moment. When you come back home later, you tell the stories, they love it. But in the moment, when they're miserable, and you're having fun, it is not... First time with Tony Robbins, when I walked on fire, I call her that night, I'm like, "I just walked on fire. Waaa!" And I hear the kids screaming in the background, and she was angry. And I was like, "Huh." And I'm like, "Cool, I'm sending you to walk on fire next month." I sent her to walk on fire, and then she was on fire. But it was like... Caleb: She's like, "No." Russell: Later, she wants to hear, but not in the moment, because it's just like... Anyway, so- Rob: Yeah. Russell: ...that was- Rob: Makes sense. Russell: ...life changing for... Anyway, so... And then, the other thing is just you have to understand what your values are. I learned this from Tom Bilyeu at a level that was fascinating, recently. But- Caleb: Who was that? Russell: Tom Bilyeu, he runs Impact Theory. Caleb: Oh, okay. Rob: Impact Theory. Caleb: Gotcha. Russell: But he writes out his values, but he prioritizes them. So his number one value is his wife, number two... And he has the values written out. And so, when a conflict comes in place, or he gets asked to speak at a huge event, speak for the Queen of England, or whatever, but it's the same weekend as his wife wants something. He's like, "My wife trumps the value... 100%, she trumps it. So the answer's no, and it's not hard for me to say no." Caleb: Wow. Russell: And so, it's figuring it out for yourself. What are your values? Personally, with your family, the wife, everything like that. And you define them, and then it's like there's no question. That's what hard, is when you value something here, and your spouse values something differently, and the conflict of that is what causes the fights, right? But if you get on the same page, like, "Look, this is number one, two..." You have these things, then it makes it easier to navigate those things, because it's like, "No, I understand this is one of the values we have together, as a couple, you should go do that thing." Or whatever the thing might be. So anyway... Caleb: That's awesome. Russell: But marriage is one of the hardest things, but one of the most rewarding things, at the same time. So it's worth it, but it's a ride. Go through demand-relationship, man. That's- Rob: That's a great point. Russell: ...so good. Speaker 4: I got a question. Rob: Yeah, go ahead. Speaker 4: So two big things that I heard from you, amongst your story, you were talking this positivity. When you were doing great at something, or you learned something, you're so excited about it, you're so positive, but then there's this other part of you that's very vulnerable. Russell: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Speaker 4: And so, you experience anxiety, or you have challenging days, or you're discouraged. How do you find the balance between those, of being vulnerable and being honest with how you're feeling, versus, "Hey, this is a challenge. I'm an entrepreneur, I can overcome this."? Matt: Right. Speaker 4: What's the balance? Russell: Yeah. That's good. One of the... Everyone who's met Tony has a story about how Tony's changed their life. But one of the biggest things that I... There's three or four things that I got from Tony, the very first time I went to his event and I heard him speak, that had a huge impact on me. One of the biggest ones was state control, understanding that. Have you ever heard him talk about the triad and things like that? Speaker 4: Yeah. Russell: I'd never heard that before, and I remember watching him do these things on people in the audience. And it was fascinating. He took a lady, who was... He picked somebody in the audience who was suicidal, and he's like... It was the weirdest thing. And he talked about the triad, right? There's three things that change your state, right? There's your language, there's your focus, and there's your physiology, right? So he takes someone, he's like, "I need someone who's suicidal." He takes this beautiful girl. I remember, we were up in Toronto, so then he takes this girl, and he's like, "I need you to get depressed. Not a little bit depressed, clinically suicidal." She's like, "What?" He's like, "Just get there in your mind. Whatever it takes, get dark." And you see her state change, right? And he keeps pushing her, and keep pushing her, and he gets her to this point. And anyway, it's crazy I'm watching this. And I'm kind of freaking out, because I'm watching him do this to this girl, getting her to a point... And soon, she's bawling her eyes out and everything. And he's like, "You got to get deeper. Get darker. More miserable." All this stuff. And you see him change this girl's state. And all of a sudden it stopped. And finally, it seemed like forever, finally he stops and he's like, "Everyone look at her. Watch her. Look at this." He's like, "What do you notice? What's her physiology?" You see her body, you see tears, and all this stuff. And you see her just broken. And then, he's like, "What do you say?" And he goes through the whole triad with her. And he shows that. And he's like, "Now I'm going to show you how quickly you can shift this." To the point where it's like... Anyway, it was crazy. And then, he shifts it, and he starts taking her back through, shifting the physiology, shifting her shoulders, shifting everything, shifting her meanings, shifting focus, shifting what she's saying. And he gets this girl, within three or four minutes, to literal ecstasy, it was crazy watching this. And you see her, where she's laughing... the opposite side of it. And I'd never seen somebody like that, the flip of emotions, how easy it was, by just shifting these three things in her. And it had such a profound impact on me. Caleb: Is there video of that? Russell: Not maybe the one I saw, but he does it at every UPW, he does it... I'm sure there's YouTube videos of it, as well. But if you type the triad, I think he calls it the triad or state control, things like that, you see it happen. But I saw that, and I was just like, "Oh my gosh, I never realized that we had control over that. I thought my feelings were my feelings." Like, "Here's your feeling." Like, "Okay, crap, this is the feeling I have today." And after experiencing that, I was like, "I could actually change this." I didn't know that. And it's interesting because I think sometimes when we're depressed, or we're sad, or we have these things, I think some of us like it. I've had times before, I don't want to be happy. I'm enjoying feeling miserable. And sometimes, I sit in there because I enjoy, because we do, it's weird. It's messed up. But I felt that. I'm like, "I could change this but I don't want to." But other times, I'm like, "I have to change it." Now that I've learned that. It's crazy you can shift your state, and you can do that and show up the way you need to be. And one practical example of how I use it a lot is, when I get home at the end of the night... And this kind of comes back to your question, I think, earlier, too. How do you do all the things? And I told you this yesterday. One of the things that I got the biggest, from being around Tony Robbins, the most impressive thing about him is when... Tony's got... As busy as any of us are, take that times 10, and that's Tony, right? He's the most busy person ever. But if you have a chance, a brief moment with Tony, where he's going to say a million things, and you have a second with him, he is the most present person I've ever met. The world dissolves around it, and it's just him and you, and there's nothing else. You can tell. And he's just zoned in on you, and it's this magical experience. And as soon as it's done, he's just gone, he's on the next thing. But that moment, he's hyper-present. And so, for me, when I'm doing things, it's like... Like, when I get home at night, at the end of the day, park my car, I walk in, and there's the door before I come into the house. And sometimes, I'm anxious, I'm thinking about work, and thinking about stuff, I'm stressed out, the FBI sent me a letter today, Taylor Swift suing me, whatever the thing is. And I'm like, "Ah." And then, I'm like, "I'm going to walk through that door, and I can't do anything about it now. My kids are there, my wife's there." And it's just like, "Okay, I got to change my state." And right there, before I walk through the door, I change my state. Get in the spot, and then like, "Okay, here we go." And I walk through the door, and it's like then I'm dad. And it's different, right? And so, I think it's learning those things. Because it's not... Your feelings are weird, they're going to show up in one way or the other, but the fact that you can control them, which I didn't understand or know how. But as soon as I realized that, it's just like, "I don't have to be sad, or miserable, or anxious, or whatever. I can actually change those things in a moment, if I understand how." And that was one of the greatest gifts Tony gave me, was just understanding how to do that, and seeing it in practical application with somebody. And now, it's like I can do it myself, any time I need to, if I need to. Matt: How do you act around Tony Robbins? Especially from the beginning to now, because you guys are close now. He probably looks at you like I look at a lot of these guys, that are Caleb's friends. I look at them like nephews, these are like... I'd do anything for them. And I know that... I can see that's how Tony starting to look at you. But take us from the very first time, because he didn't he have you come to an event, ask you a bunch of questions, take notes, and then just leave you hanging, or something like that. Tell the story, real quick. Russell: Oh, man. Tony's so intense. I still get scared to... It's still like, "Ah." Anyway, every time I see him, it's just like... I don't know, it's weird. His presence is- Matt: He still makes you nervous. Russell: Oh, yeah, for sure. But the very first time... So yeah, it was... I don't know, it was probably 04:00 in the morning. I don't even know. The shorter version of the long story is they asked me to come meet him in Toronto, at UPW, same event as this whole experience happened. So I went up there, and supposed to meet him one day, and it shifts to the next day. And if you ever work with Tony, just know if he tells you he's meeting you at 10:00, it could be like four days later you actually meet. You're on Tony time. Yeah, it's- Matt: That's just how it is. Russell: It's crazy, yeah. Just waiting. But it's always worth it, so you just wait and be grateful when it happens. But anyway, so we finally get to the point where we meet, and I have to drive 45 minutes. This is pre-Uber, so I'm in a taxi to some weird hotel. And we get there, and then me and his assistant stand outside for another hour, waiting in the lobby. He kept looking at his phone, nervously, like, "Ah." He's like, "Okay, Mr. Robbins' ready to meet you. Let's go." So we run up the stairs, we go to this thing, we walk in this room, and there's- Matt: And this is the first time you ever- Russell: ...body guards everywhere. First time I ever met him, yeah. Yeah, he's like a giant, comes and gives me a huge hug. And we sit down, and he's like, "You hungry?" I'm like, "Yeah." And he was vegetarian at the time, so he's like, "Get Russell some food." And brought me out this amazing plate of... I don't even know what it was. But it was... I was like, "If I could eat like this is every night, I'd be vegetarian." Because it was amazing. It was- Caleb: It was? Russell: ...insane. And then, got his tape recorder out, he's like, "You okay if we record this?" I'm like, "Yeah." So he clicks record, picks out a big journal, he's like, "You're Mormon, right?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "I love the Mormon people. When I was eight years old, I went to a Mormon church and they told me to keep a journal. I've kept a journal ever since. Do you mind if I take notes while we talk?" Matt: Wow. Russell: I'm like, "Eh, okay." So he's recording, taking notes, and then he drilled me for an hour. Just like do, do, do. Just like- Speaker 4: And how long ago was this? Russell: This is 13, 14 years ago. Speaker 4: Okay. Russell: Anyway, it was intense. And I can't remember what I was saying, I was so scared, I'm second-guessing everything I've said. And then, he's asking me numbers and stats, because we were trying to do this deal with him. And it was so scary. Matt: So he was just drilling you with questions, and just trying to- Russell: Oh, like crazy, yeah. I'm trying to just... Yeah, dude. Anyway, it was crazy. And then, he had to go back to UPW to speak again, so he's like, "You want to drive with me?" So I'm like, "Yeah." So go down, and jump in his Escalade together, we're in the back seat, and we're driving. And it's just crazy. And I remember he asked me a question about this one... I won't say the person's name because the story isn't positive for the person. But he asked, he's like, "What do you think about so and so?" I'm like, "Oh, that person's really cool and really talented." He's like, "He's a very significant..." and he just talked about six human needs, earlier that day, so I was very aware of here's what the needs are, right? And he's like, "Yeah, I don't think I'd ever work with him, because he's very significance driven." And I was like, "Oh, that make sense." And all of a sudden, I was like, "Ah, Tony is reading my soul, right now." I was like, "What drives me? I don't even know what drives me. Does he know what drives me?" Like, "Oh my gosh, am I significance driven?" I'm freaking out, like, "Ah." And all I remember is panicking, thinking, "He knows more about me than I know about me, at this point." And all these things, I'm freaking out, we're driving in his Escalade. And we get to the thing, and he's like, "I got to go inside. Thank you so much, brother. I love you." Jumps out the car, shuts the door. I'm sitting in the Escalade, like, "What just happened?" Matt: It was that fast. Russell: It was insane, yeah. Matt: It was just like- Russell: And then, the driver's like, "Do you want to get out here? Do you want me to drive you somewhere?" Like, "I don't even know where we are." We're in Toronto somewhere, that's all I know. And so, it was just the craziest experience. And then, I don't hear from him for four or five months, nothing. And I'm like- Matt: What were you thinking? Did you think- Russell: I was like, "He must've hated me. Maybe I failed the test. Am I significance driven?" I'm freaking out about all the things. And then, one day, I get this random... It was actually my wife and I, we were celebrating our anniversary, so we were at... It was a StomperNet event, but we took her, it was this cool thing. And she'd just gone to UPW. I sent her like three months later. So she walked on fire, and she was like... And Tony talks about Fiji there, so she was like, "Someday we should go to Fiji." And then, we get this call from Tony, and it was like, "Hey..." Or it was Tony's assistant. Like, "Hey, Tony wants to know if you want to speak at Business Mastery in Fiji, in two weeks." I was like, "Tony Robbins..." I started saying it out loud so Collette could hear me. "Tony Robbins wants me to speak in Fiji, in two weeks?" And Collette, my cute little wife, starts jumping on the bed, like, "Say yes! Say yes!" Caleb: Aw! Russell: And I was like, "Yes, yes, yes. Of course, we will." And then, we're like, we've got three kids that are all toddlers at this time, and like, "Can we bring kids?" They're like, "There's no kids allowed on the resort." I'm like, "We've got three little kids." He's like, "Ah, all right. We'll figure it out." So I hang up, and we're like, "We don't have passports for the kids, we don't have anything." So anyway, it was chaos, we're freaking out. We ended up getting them there, they literally built a fence around our... The Bula house, where's Dan at? The Bula house we were in. They built a whole fence around, so our kids wouldn't die because- Caleb: Did they really? Russell: ...there's cliffs off the back. Yeah, it was crazy. And then, I'm speaking to this room, and there's less than 100 people. I'm speaking, and Tony's sitting in the back of this room, I'm like- Matt: While you're speaking. Russell: ..."I thought he was not going to be here. This is really scary." Yeah. And he's paying attention the whole time. Matt: Does it make you more nervous? Russell: He introduced me, he brought me on stage, which was like... I still have the footage of that, it's really cool. He brought me on stage, which was crazy. And then, I remember, because in the thing we're talking about lead generation, I was talking about squeeze pages. And afterwards, he got on. He comes up afterwards, he's like, "Yeah, I heard squeeze pages don't work anymore. Is that true, Russell?" He's like, "People say they're kind of dead, they don't work anymore." And this is, again, 12 years ago. And I was like, "Who told you that? They totally still work." Which is funny, because we still use them today. But he was just like, "Somebody had told me they don't work anymore." And I was like, "They..." anyway, "They work, I promise." But anyway, and then I don't hear from him for five years, and then something else happens. It's just weird, these long extended periods of time. But then, every time, every moment, I tried... Five years later, it was a call, it was like, "Hey, Tony's doing this thing. He wants your opinion on it." So I spent like two or three hours with his team, consulting, giving feedback, as much ideas as I could. And like, "Cool, thanks." And then, nothing for two years, and then something else, and then... Little things keep happening, and happening, and can do more and more together. And then- Matt: What did you learn from that? You think that's just- Russell: A couple things I've learned. Number one, I'm sure you guys get this a lot, people who want to work with you, they show up and the first thing they show up with is, "All right, I got an idea how we can make a bunch of money together." Right? They always come, and want to figure out how they can take from you. And I was so scared, and grateful, I didn't ever ask Tony for anything. The first time I asked Tony for anything ever was 12 into our relationship, after Expert Secrets book was done. I had just paid him $250,000 to speak on our stage, and just finished the interview promoting his book. And I was like, "Hey, I wrote a new book. Do you want one?" Matt: Wow. Russell: And he's like, "Oh." And he took it. I'm like, "Cool." And then, a week later, I'm like, "Ah, will you interview me on Facebook with this?" He's like, "Sure." And then, he did, and that video got three and a half million views on it. It was crazy, coolest thing ever. But it was 12 years before I asked him for anything. And I had- Matt: Wow. Russell: ...served him at as many different points as I can. I think the biggest lesson from that is that... And I get it all the time, people come to me and it's like they're trying to ask and take. It's just like... I get it, and it makes sense. But it's just like, "This game's not a short game. If you do it right, it's your life. This is your life mission." Right? Matt: Yeah, that's good. Russell: And so it's just understanding you're planting seeds, and you're serving, and if you do that, eventually good things will happen. And something may never happen with Tony, and that's cool. I do stuff for a lot of people, and nothing ever good ever comes from it. But hopefully something does. Sometimes it's indirect, sometimes it's not, sometimes it's just karma, or whatever you believe in. But if you just always go with the intent to serve, not to like, "What's in it for me?" It just changes everything. And then, if you do that, if you lead with how to serve, stuff comes back to you. But if you lead with trying to get stuff, it just doesn't work. The energy's different in the whole encounter. You know what I mean? Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: So I'm sure you guys have felt that with people, when they first come to you, and it's just like, "Ah." Matt: So is there a point where you... You went to his house. Russell: That was cool. The thing I can say is it was really cool, because most times when I'm with Tony, you're around people. In Fiji, it was fun seeing him, because he's more personal and stuff like that. But it was really special in his home, because it was him and his wife, and it was cool. It was fun just seeing him as him, like as a kid. And even my wife, like, "He seems like a kid here." He was so excited, and showing us his stuff, and all the things. Matt: Ah, well, guys, listen. Russell: Anyway- Matt: A few more questions, because I mean, man, you've been at it for almost two hours, dude. I can go all night, and I know he could. But Brea Morrison, give it up for her for letting us be here. Thank you so much.

The roundtable interview with Matt and Caleb Maddix and a small group of people who are trying to change the world. Enjoy part two of this special 4 part episode series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Seekers Podcast. So I have got to ask you, what did you think about episode number one of the World Changers Roundtable? Hopefully, you loved it. There were so many things covered in that 42 minutes. Anyway, we are moving on to the next part of this interview. As you know, this is going to be broken down into four parts because they kept me there, handcuffed to a table, until 3:00 AM. I'm just joking. They didn't really. But, the question was so intriguing, we were having so much fun, we just kept going and going until finally I was like, "I have to fly out in three hours. I need to get back to my hotel." But now we're going to go dive into the second part. This next episode is probably another 30 to 40, 45 minutes or so as well. So these are some things we'll be covering in this one, which is really fun. We talk about, number one, why my business partner, Todd Dickerson, is so amazing, and hopefully give you ideas about if you're pursuing opportunities and trying to land your dream job or partnership or whatever. Number two, we talked about personality profiling, how we actually are hiring here at ClickFunnels. We talked about where my love for learning came from. We talked about transition for me, going from an athlete to a business person and a marketer. We talked about some of the lessons I learned from Lindsey Stirling, things I was not expecting to hear from her that totally changed everything for me. We talked about people who intrigue me, my interest in health and bio hacking. We talked about is there anything that happens inside of this business that gets me as excited as what I felt in wrestling. We talked about what thing is close, but nothing actually has ever hit it. We talked about the first Two Comma Club Awards. We talked about how to upgrade your identity as you grow. We talked about the fact that you have to cycle and fail and rebuild in your businesses. We talked about the launch of ClickFunnels and how it wasn't just the fact that I was a genius, because I wasn't. There are so many things. Talking about the grace of God and how it tied into the launch of ClickFunnels. We talked about some of my early products, like Zip Brander and Forum Fortunes. We talked about my Christmas Grinch sale, which was the very first big sale, big launch I ever did, to my little tiny list that made enough money to cover Christmas for my wife and I when we were first getting started. We talked about becoming worthy. We talked about list building, how it's better than buying ads, and a whole bunch of other things. It's amazing, this could be 40 courses all wrapped into one super podcast episode. So if you liked the last episode, I think you're going to love this one as well. And I've got two more after this, coming back, going deeper into this conversation with the Roundtable of World Changers. So, that said, we're going to cue the theme song. When we come back, we'll dive right into the second section here of the interview. Matt Maddix: Dave and Todd, I mean, just wow. Those dudes are like... But what about those guys? Russell: So here's Todd's story. So the real long story short, I bought some software, it was coding Ruby on Rails, didn't know that. Bought this company with the last... I didn't have the money. So I borrowed money, bought this company, coded on some platform we didn't know, and I was like, "Screw it," right? And I tried to hire people to fix it, nobody could fix this platform until finally I was leaving the office one day. I literally emailed the people saying, "Turn off the servers." We lost all of our money to this company. They shut it down. And I'm walking out of the office and I had this impression of like, "There could be someone on your email list who knows Ruby on Rails." I was like, "That's weird. I had a bunch of internet marketing nerds. There's no one that's like, 'Ruby on Rails...'" Anyway. It was starting with the impression from God, I stopped, turned back around, set the computer to open back up, sent an email to my list. "If you know Ruby on Rails, I'm looking for a partner. I bought a software company and it's not working. Please send me a message." Send. Matt: And that's all you said? Russell: Yeah. And lo and behold, three years earlier, Todd bought some random thing from me, happened to be on my email list. He built the website three or four years earlier that was making six figures a year on autopilot. Hadn't worked in four years. Just hanging out relaxing with his wife and his daughter. And an email comes in and it says, "If you know Ruby on Rails, I'm looking for a partner." He's like, "I know Ruby on Rails. I can be Russell's partner." Emails me back. And at first I see him and his beautiful wife and I'm like, "There's no way he's a programmer. There's no way." That was literally my thought. But he was the only person that responded back so I was like, "Okay, well, here's the login to the site. Fix it. I don't know what to do. I'm not a coder." I went to bed, woke up the next morning. He's like, "Cool, I fixed the site. Plus I found this, this, and this. And I changed this. And I moved these things,", and all of this stuff. He's like, "It's working now. Do you have anything else you want to do together?" I'm like, "Huh." And so I give him another project, another project. And for an entire year Todd and I worked together, and never once did he ever ask me for money, ever. Matt: Wow. Russell: Not a penny. And I remember he started finding Boise to work on a project together ... Matt: You're telling me he worked for you for an entire year? Russell: For free. More than a year. Caleb Maddix: Why was that? Russell: I don't know. I found out later. He'd gone to Robert Kiyosaki at this event and he said, "Find someone who's doing what you want to do and work for them for free." So he told me that years later. I didn't know that. Matt: Todd, if you're watching dude. I love you man. You're legit. Russell: And so he kept coming and he started coming to Boise and we started becoming friends. The smartest developer I've ever met. Literally the smartest person I've ever met. I'll go that far. Just genius. And he'd come out to Boise and we'd work on projects and ideas. We tried to launch a couple of things. None of them really worked. And we were just trying stuff. He was just always there, always serving, always doing stuff. And one day were in Boise and I was looking over his shoulder cause we're looking at stuff and I saw his email. And there's all these emails from some recruiting site or something. I was like, "What's that?" He's like, "Oh, it's people recruiting me for a Ruby job." And I was like, "Do you get a lot of those?" And he's like, "I get three or for a day." I'm like, "Really? Are they good offers?" He's like, "I don't know. Let's check it out." He opened it up and the first one was like $400,000 a year starting salary. I'm like, "What?" The next one is $350,000. The next was 5 ... Insane things. I'm like, "Why don't you do that?" He's like, "I don't want to work for them. I want to be your partner man." I'm like, "What?" And then I all of a sudden had this realization that I hadn't paid him in a year. We didn't have much money at the time, we're still at the backside of a business failure when we met. I'm like, "I can pay you maybe $50,000 a year. Can I pay you that?" He's like, "Whatever." So I told our little bookkeeper, "Pay Todd $50,000 a year." And they're like, "Okay." So he did that and next year we're paying $50,000 a year. We're doing stuff and we have more things. Started to get a little success here and there. Making more money. Back in Boise again. And I'm like, "Can I pay you some more?" And he's like, "Whatever." Matt: So he wasn't ever just asking? Russell: Never in his life has he asked me for money. Ever. So we bumped it up to $100,000 a year because that's what we got, the year before that, after a year or two working together. And then, it was crazy, the day Leadpages got the first round of funding for $5,000,000, the same day Todd was flying to Boise. And he gets the email. It's east coast so he's two hours ahead. He's awake and on the plane, he sees the email, forwards it to me, and then jumps in the plane. He's flying for four hours. I wake up. I see the email and I was like, "Leadpages? Got 5 ..." I was like, we built landing page software in the past. I was perplexed and angry. And then Todd lands. And Todd, he's a little guy, he comes into the office all angry. He's like, "Leadpages got 5 million!" He's like, "I can build Leadpages tonight. Do you want to build lead pages?" I'm like, "Yeah. Let's compete with Leadpages." He's like, "All right." Matt: No way. Dude. I love this. Russell: This is like angry Todd. I love angry Todd. I like all Todds, but angry Todd is the best Todd. Matt: Is it? Okay. Russell: He's just pissed because he's like, "I can build this tonight. Everything thing they got we can have done tonight." So we're getting all ready. What should we call it and everything. And then he's like, "Wait, we're building this. You want to add anything else to it?" And I was like, "Oh. Yeah. What if it did this? And what if it did this?" And we spent a week in front of a white board saying, "What if it did?", and we mapped out ClickFunnels. Matt: So you're talking about a week where you guys just locked in and you were just having fun. Just doodling and whatever. Russell: Yeah. He's like, "Oh, I can do that. We can do that." We're brainstorming all sorts of stuff so we map the whole thing out. Matt: Did you know at that moment you were onto something big? At that moment right there, when you guys were like ... Or was it just still like ... Russell: All lot of people have tried something like that. I tried before other people tried. No one had done it. So I was kind of skeptical but Todd's like, "I can do this. This is easy." I'm like, "Okay because I tried it ..." He's like, "No dude, I can do it. This is easy." So I was, excuse me, optimistically hopeful because he's a genius but I was also nervous. But anyways, we map it out and then we bought Clickpros.com. I wanted to call it ClickFusion because I own ClickFusion, but we'd had three failed businesses called ClickFusion. All of them failed and Todd was like, "No. It's bad karma. We can't." I'm like, "But the logo is so cool dude." Matt: I love it. You love the logo. Russell: And he's like, "No, we can't." He's like, "It's got a jinx on it or something. We can't do that. You have to come up with a different name." I was like, "But ClickFusion is the coolest name ever." So we're trying things. Click everything and then ClickFunnels. We're like, "Ah." That was the thing. We're so excited Matt: Who first said it? Do you remember? The words ClickFunnels. Caleb: It's almost like God saying, "Let there be light." Russell: I would assume it was me but I'm not positive. I'll have to ask Todd on that one. Caleb: Well, when you said it, was it instant? Like fire? Russell: It was insane, it was available. Matt: Oh, you know that feeling, right? Checking domains. You're like… chills. Russell: How has no one thought of this before? And so we got it and I remember I was driving him to the airport at the end of the week to take him back home. And we got to the airport. Boise airport, It's a small airport. So we pull up to the thing to get out and you can tell he's probably nervous waiting. And before we get out of the car he's like, "I really want to do this man. I'm excited." I'm like, "Me too. Me too." He's like, "I don't want to do this like your employee though. I want to do it as your partner." And in that moment, I was just like all the fear of ... I'd tried partners in the past. It hadn't worked. All this stuff and all the everything. And it was just this weird thing of just all the emotions were hitting me as he sat in the car, about to get out the car. I have 15, 20 seconds before he's going to to go. I was just thinking about him. I was like, he's never asked me for money. He's never done anything. He's served. He's given everything. I was just looking at him. I was like, "All right let's do it." He's like, "Cool." And he got out of the car and he's gone. Matt: Wait a minute. So at that moment? Is was that quick? Russell: That was it. Matt: It was a gut feeling that you just knew. That he was ... Russell: It was him. Yeah. And I was literally... I said this on stage at Funnel hacking live, outside of marrying my wife, it was the greatest decision I ever made. Matt: Yeah. I remember you saying that with tears. Russell: Yeah. Matt: Why though? I'm curious because it's not just ClickFunnels. Russell: He's amazing. If you look at our personality profiles, it's fascinating. We have the same personality profiles. The Myers-Briggs. Except for one letter's different. Where I'm a feeler he's a thinker. And it's been magical as a partnership because we both have so much respect for each other that we don't try to fight each other. And it's very much like if I wanted to do something, I'm like, "This is what I want to do. This what I'm feeling. What do you think?" And he'll come back and be like, "Well, I think this." And so I come up from feeling instead of thinking and it's really cool. So sometimes his thinking will trump my feeling. And I'm like, "You're actually right. Let's not do that." Or vice versa. Where he's like, "I'm thinking this." And I'm like, "I don't know why but I feel this." And he'll be like, "Okay." He respects that. We just have such mutual respect that we've never been in a fight. We've never argued. We've never had problems. It's been amazing. Matt: Wow. Russell: And he's similar to like we talk about with Dan. He went back home after us white boarding that, sat in his basement for five or six months and built ClickFunnels by himself. Caleb: Really just by himself? Russell: 100% by himself. Caleb: No other team. No other dev? Russell: It was just him. And the right before we launched, we brought in another partner, Dylan, who built the front-end editor and did a lot of the UI. And so then it was those two as we got closer and closer to the launch. And then for the next year it was just those two that did everything. And then after a year, we started bringing in other developers. But it was 100% Todd. Matt: Wow. Russell: He's amazing. In all aspects. You know you have friends you think they know everything about everything. That's like Todd except he actually knows everything about everything. You ask him anything and he's just like ... I don't know how he does it. And I'll always fact check him, like, "Oh my gosh. He's right again." He's brilliant. It's amazing. Matt: So for those of us who have partners or are maybe going into partnership, what's your best advice? And what do you feel like he does right that other partners don't do? Russell: I think the hardest thing with partners is typically we want to partner with someone who is just like us. We did a podcast most recently. Dean, Tony and I, right? We've done two partnerships. Both partnerships made it through the launch and they stopped. Made it through the launch and stopped. The podcast was like, "Why?" I love Dean. I love Tony. They're amazing. The problem is that me and Dean had the exact same skill set. Matt: Oh. Russell: And so the problem is that both of us are right. We both understand it right, but we do it differently. And so it's like You have two people, and so typically you want to partner with those people who are like you. You're like, "Oh, we think the same. We should be partners." But that's not necessarily the right thing because then you've got two alphas with the same skillset, and someone has to win and someone has to lose. And it's hard. Whereas me and Todd, we have different skill sets. There is never a winner or a loser. We can both win because different skill sets, both the same mission. It's really easy. So I think the biggest thing is you're trying to find the yin yang. You're not trying to find someone who thinks like you or acts like you. In fact, this is true in most hiring processes as well. I used to have people like, "Send me a video if you want this job." Right? So I get these videos, and the people that I wanted to hire were the people like me. I'm like, "This person's awesome. They think like me. They're a genius. They're amazing." You'll hire them, and within a week I'm like, "I hate this person." It's horrible. So we started shifting the way we do our hiring based on personality profiling instead. DISC profile drives most of my own personal hiring so I know that I'm a high D, high I, high S. No C at all. Right? And so the people I need to hire around me are high S, high C. The problem is the people I who I watched their videos and I'm pumped, they're high D, high I. So I'm like, "Yeah. These people are awesome. They're charismatic. I'm going to love them. They're drivers, they're awesome. Worst employees ever. Matt: Right. Russell: Right? So when people send us this profile, first I find the right profile and then from there I do interviews. Because if I interview ahead of time I get sold by the people who sell and then they're horrible employees. And so I make sure they're high S high C, because I know that if I talk to high S high C, I'm going to be kind of bummed out. Like, "Oh, I don't know if this is the kind of person that I'm going to jive with." But they're the best people to surround myself with because I'm such a high D high S. I'm a creator. I'm throwing things up in the air and I need people who are S and C, who are faithful finishers, who are going to take the things, capture them, and make sure that it's amazing. Matt: Do you feel like businesses and entrepreneurs are making a mistake by not having their employees and their team take these tests? Russell: 100%. I have a new company we're launching all about personality profiling because I'm such a big believer in it. Matt: Really? Tell me why. Top three reasons. Russell: It's in all things in life. If you're going to be a partner. If you're going to date someone. Understanding who they are is such a big part of it. Right? Because we think everyone sees the world the same way we see it and it is not true at all. The way you see it, the way we all see is so different and so if we don't understand that at a deep level, then I get upset by what you do and at what everyone's doing because it's like, "Don't you see what I see?" And the reality is no they don't. So if you start understanding people better ... In fact, the software can be called Understand About Me. It's a place you go and you take all the personality profiling and it gives you a page that can show somebody this is me. So in five seconds I can understand you perfectly they're like, "Oh, now I know how to work with you." Because I understand what you are, what your beliefs are, what your values, all the things I need to know about you, I can find it really quickly. Where normally you're going to go years with somebody before you understand them. I can look at a thing and get pretty dang close in a minute. Matt: Wow. Russell: Now I know hot interact with you and spend time with you and work with you. Things like that. Caleb: Question. Where does your love to learn come from? Because one of the things I noticed from being around you, it's always like yeah, so I had this moment where I geeked on this and I geeked out on this. It was health and suppliments, and marketing and personality types. There's all these different things you geek out on. Have you always been that way? Is it like you geek out on marketing, you saw the rewards from it, and you're like, "Wow, what if this goes into other areas?" Where does that come from? Russell: Yeah, I didn't always have my life. In fact, I had a fascinating conversation with Tom Bilyeu about this, because when I was growing up in high school I always thought I was a dumb kid. I thought I was an athlete, so I focused there. I thought I was an athlete, so I was a wrestler, that was my identity, that was where I focused at. I thought I was dumb. Because of that, straight C student high school and college, my cumulative GPA graduating from college was 2.3. Straight C's and one B maybe somewhere in there, right? Because I was a dumb kid. When I got done I ended my wrestling career, so I stopped being an athlete, and I was like, "Oh crap." I started to learn this business stuff and I don't like to read. I'm a dumb kid. What do I do? It was fascinating. Tom told me, because I had this epiphany, I'm not actually dumb. He's like, "Actually, the reality is you probably really were dumb. But then you changed, right?" So for me it was like I shifted. It was fascinating. Do you remember the Funnel Hacking Live where we had Lindsay Stirling perform? One of my favorite parts of that, she did a whole performance. If you guys don't know, Lindsay does violin dancing stuff, and afterwards I had a Q and A with her afterwards. I had this question I was so pumped to ask. I was waiting for her just to like, the question is, she was on America's Got Talent, and I think she took 7th place. When she got kicked off, Pierce Bronson or whatever said, "You've got no talent. You're no good." Whatever, right? So I was like, do you remember that time when he said that? What I thought she was going to say was, "Yeah, I proved him wrong. Yeah." I was like, "What did you feel after that?" She's like, "Yeah, I got home and I realized he was right. I wasn't very good. So I went back and I started practicing and I started working harder and eventually I became good enough." It was like, oh my gosh. I got chills when I was saying it again. Matt: Yeah. Russell: I remember when Tom said it to me, he was like, "You probably were dumb." I was like, "I was." Because I wasn't reading things. So with marketing that was the first thing for some reason that caught my attention, that got me excited, right? And then if you look at my DISC profile, ROI is my highest value. I have to see ROI in something or I don't want to do it. So when I saw an ROI on this reading, I was like, "Oh my gosh. I read a book, I got one little sentence, changed a color, made more money. Oh my gosh." That is where it started, 100%. I started learning that and I started getting obsessed with those things. As this business grew for me I started being more, I always joke that crazy people got attracted to me, right? The best health people, the best fitness people, the best in every market kind of came into our world somehow. So I started getting to meet all these people. When you're around someone who's the best in the world at the thing, and they start talking about the thing, you can't help but be like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." Right? You zone in on that. So whenever I meet someone that's amazing and I have a chance to talk to them like this I just geek out. Like when I met your dad the first time with you guys. That's when I bought your parenting course and everything. I was just like, I saw you and I saw him and I was like, "I want that." So I started going down that rabbit hole, right? I met Anthony DiClementi, I was like, "I love this guy. I have respect for him, I love him." Every time he talks about anything, he fascinates me, when he talks about something it fascinates me. I have to look down those things, right? When people fascinate me, the things that fascinate them start fascinating me and that's when I kind of go down those rabbit holes. This person is so intriguing and fascinating. What makes them that way? What are they doing. It's interesting. I'm not a good question asker. You guys are so good at question askers. I've never been good at asking questions, but I'm really good at watching what people do and then seeing it and trying to go down the rabbit hole. What are they doing, why are they doing it, that kind of thing. Caleb: He's a true master in it. You can just tell. What are some things you want to take the time to geek out on? I'm sure you see something and you're like I want to get on that but it's not a priority, I've got to do this. What are some things, if I had a week or two? Russell: Just free time with nothing else involved? Caleb: What's the next thing you're going to geek out on? Russell: Oh. I would say every probably three years I get re-excited about SEO, for some reason. I start going down that path again, because I love it. There's times in my business when that was the focused. It's not now at all, but I went through a couple ... Brian Dean's a real cool SEO guy, couple guys… I started dabbing my toe in again and I'm like, I just want to get back into it so bad. Right now SEO is actually our number 11 lead source as of today in ClickFunnels, which is amazing. So we handed SEO the first four or five years, now we're focused on it again. It's doing really well for us. I want to go deep there because I like that. Anyway, I haven't had a chance to do that. Any of the health stuff really, really fascinates me. Matt: Why? I'm curious. Why are you drawn to that so much? The health stuff. Russell: Because I've seen with myself ... My history is I got in wrestling, at the PAC 10 tournament was my last actual wrestling match. My wife was giving herself fertility shots in the stomach during PAC 10 so the next month se was pregnant. So I got done wrestling, got done competing, got done running, got done lifting. All my athletic career ended, and then my wife got pregnant. She's eating for three kids, and I'm pumped because I don't have to work out right now, she's hungry, I'm hungry, we're eating. We just kept eating and eating. So over the next seven to eight months my wife gained like 60 pounds, I gained like 60 pounds. We were doing it together so who cared, it was amazing. Then one day she has two babies and she loses like 45 pounds and I'm like, oh crap. I'm stuck here. Where did you go? This for me? Matt: Yeah. Russell: Thank you. Then at that time the business was starting and I was stressed out trying to figure it out and I didn't get healthy again. I just was in that state of being 65 pounds heavier for years. But I didn't know the difference, I didn't know that I felt differently, because I'd never been in a spot where I spent eight hours sitting behind a computer, so I didn't know what good felt like or bad felt like. I knew if I tried to wrestle I'd puke, so I was like I don't feel like I'm an athlete. I just felt normal, I thought. Eight years in I was like, I don't know, I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, "Oh, what happened to you?" You know what I mean? I'm sure hopefully everybody's had a chance. I was like, huh. It was hard because in my head I knew how to work out, I knew how to train, I knew these things. Finally I was like, "I need to get a trainer." So I got a trainer for the first time. I'd never really done that before. Started going, and got me from I don't even know, 27, 28% body fat down to 12% in a matter of seven or eight months. I looked better, I felt better, but what's crazy is I could work twice as hard and twice as long. I wasn't tired. I was like, "I can keep going. My brain's on fire. This is amazing." Matt: Wow. Just from the ... Russell: I had no idea until I lost all the weight. All of a sudden it was just like, I can do so much more. I think, when I first met Anthony DiClementi the first time I was like, this is my problem right now. I am at work all day slaying dragons, doing all these things, I have this energy. I get home at night and my two little twin boys are there, and my little daughter, and I'm spent and I have no energy. How do I still be a present dad and how do I have these things? The next tier was the bio hacking stuff. How do you do these things? How do you increase energy? There's so many ways to do that, from light therapy to supplements to sleeping to sound to breath, all these crazy things that seem stupid. The first time Anthony's like, "We're going to do breath work." I'm like, "We're going to breathe? That's your bio hack? We're going to breathe together?" He's like, "Yeah, it's going to be amazing." I'm like super annoyed. What's the ROI on this, I've got to get back to work. So he sat me down in our gym. You've been in our wrestling room. He sat me down and he's like, "You have to sit because if you're standing you'll hit your head and you'll die." I'm like, what are you talking about? He sits me down and we do these breathing exercises where he's yelling at us and screaming. All this stuff is happening. If anyone's ever done deep breath work it's nuts. We're doing this thing where we're supposed to do this heavy, heavy breath work until he's like, what's going to happen is the world is going to ... Has anybody done jiu-jitsu here? Been tapped out before? Matt: Yeah. Russell: So you get choked out. What will happen, the carotid artery gets choked and the world starts shrinking like this. If you take pressure off it, it comes back to life. If you don't, it goes darker and darker until it disappears and you're gone, right? If you've never been choked out, that's what happens. It's a really fun experience. But you have the minute when you see it shrinking around you and then it's gone, right? He told me that's what's going to happen. You're going to breathe so much that the world around you is going to start shrinking. If you don't stop you're going to pass out. So we go all the way to where it starts shrinking, stops, and then when you hit that point you let me know and then you hold your breath for as long as you can. He's like, "How long can you hold your breath for?" I'm like, "Maybe a minute." He's like, "You'll do it for at least five." I was like, there's no way. So he says sit down, we're doing this breath thing, we're going like crazy and sure enough the walls start doing weird stuff. I feel like I'm on drugs. I'm sweating like crazy. We keep doing it. He's yelling at me. All of a sudden the world starts closing around me, I'm like, "What is happening?" And then he stops and is like, "Hold your breath." He starts the clock. I'm sitting here holding my breath forever, looking around. We had three or four of us guys all doing it at the same time. I'm freaking out. And then it starts getting quieter, things are slowing down, we're sitting there and then he's like let some of the pressure out but don't breathe in. Let pressure out, pressure out, pressure out, keep doing that, and it gets done and the stop clock is over five minutes. I'm just like, I just held my breath for five minutes. Matt: And you didn't even know it. Russell: Insane. And then the rest of the day we were on fire. It was just like, whoa. Right? We brought a cryo-sauna at our house and we go freeze in the cryo-sauna and the rest of the day you just feel ... That's the thing I love now, these little weird things. Light therapy, breathing, weird things that just seem stupid. You do it and you can go longer, you can think better, you can do stuff. All those things just get me so excited. Anthony's fun because he randomly will just ship me weird stuff in the mail. Just the weirdest things. It makes my wife so mad. It just shows up. There's a big old box. She's like, what's this from? I'm like, I'm hoping it's from Anthony, it's going to be amazing. Just weird things. Tons of stuff. I love that kind of stuff because the ROI on it is crazy. They're always these weird things. I have this headband someone sent me. You put this headband on, you put an app on and you start working and it just makes you not tired, makes you focused. These weird things. How does this work? I don't know. And they're like oh, it works because the waves over here sync your brain and change your brain waves and the creative state and all these things. I mean, I don't know how it works but I just wrote two chapters. Caleb: Do you do breath work every day? Russell: No, because it's so intense. If I had a coach who could walk me through it. I have a recording of Anthony doing it and I almost dread it because I know how hard it is. By the time you're done you're sweating. Caleb: I've got to get that recording. Russell: I'll get it to you. By the time you're sweating, you're like what just happened? I just breathed for five minutes. It's weird. Anyway, I would love to understand it on a deeper level but I don't understand a lot of the things now. Some of them I've gone deep on, but a lot of them I do without knowing why. I hate it because my wife will be like, "What's this do?" And I'm like, I don't know. Matt: Just love it. Russell: One of my buddies, Preston Eli, he wrote this blog post, he called it the Warriornaire Workout. In there he explains part of his morning workout. He's like, why do I do it? He's like, because Tony Robins does, and I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence. That quote goes to my head all the time. People ask me, why do you do that? I'm like, because I obey all giants who fly helicopters and have stage presence, that's it. I'm like, I don't know the reason why, Tony says so, therefore I will do it. I would like to understand it at a deeper level so I have a better response than I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. But that's a pretty good reason. Anyway. Matt: Real quick, does anybody else want to throw in a question for Russell? Anybody else here live with us? Caleb: Let me ask one more real fast. Because I want to. I want to ask this. We were just having sushi, I was asking you, what are some of the favorite periods of your life? One of them you said was wrestling, which I found funny because by far one of my favorite periods is baseball, which people wouldn't expect because obviously I've been on stage and all this other stuff and that should take the cake. But those moments when you're just on the field, you're in the zone, there's nothing better. Where, with what you get to do now, whether it's being live on a webinar or being on stage or whatever it is, where do you get the same feeling of wrestling? Do you know what I mean? You know, the feeling in your chest? Russell: Today while we were in line at the grocery store I talked to your dad about this. I said that the best feelings I ever had in my life were from wrestling. The feeling of winning a hard match that I wasn't supposed to win and getting your hand raised, I never felt something like that, that felt as good as that, ever. I've been searching in business to find that, and I've never found it. Speaker 3: Do you feel like sports is like business in any sense? Matt: Good question. Russell: For sure, yeah. There's a lot, for sure. What I was going to say is the closest I've ever gotten to feeling that is when you serve at an event and you see a table rush and you see not only people where they get the a-ha, but enough of an a-ha where it gets them to get up and to move. That's the closest I've ever felt to that. It's not as good, but it's the closest I've ever felt to that. Which is why I love doing the big things. I get a glimpse of that. Caleb: How close? Scale of one to 10. Wrestling's a 10. Where does that rank? Russell: If wrestling's a 10, I'd say it's about an eight. In fact it's interesting because when I first started in business I was racing for that, trying to find it, trying to find it, trying to find it. It took me years before I was like ... Matt: Is it disappointing? Russell: For sure, yeah. We launch today and make a million dollars and it's like, huh. That sucked. What else have we got. Give me something else. Matt: Exactly. Russell: The money goal is always what I thought was going to be the thing, and those always were just like, huh. In fact, literally one of the main reasons I did the Two Comma Club Awards, for me I need, maybe it's just from a decade of my life someone grabbing my hand and raising it. I was like, entrepreneurs need that. No one raises our hands. Two Comma Club Awards, for me, is me lifting their hands like you did it. I needed that, they need that. That's one of the main reasons I did that, because that's the equivalent of that. Anyway. Matt: How many millionaires have you created? Russell: This year we passed 1,000 people that won the two comma club award. We're over 120. Matt: How does it feel to say that? To say it? You know how sometimes it's like so many people that have passion or goals or huge dreams and visions, rarely do they really celebrate what's happening on the journey. Do you find yourself ever getting where your vision is so big and your passion is so deep that even saying things like there's 1,000 millionaires. Dude, that's huge. Man, 1,000 people that are millionaires because of you. Russell: I think the first time I really got that, probably the most impactful time, was the very first Funnel Hacking live that we gave away Two Comma Club Awards. It was the third Funnel Hacking live. It was a couple of months before that we had the idea of a Two Comma Club and an award, talking about that. I legitimately didn't know. I wonder if anyone in ClickFunnels has actually made a million dollars. I don't even know. So Dave went back and the database guys went through everything and I remember he came back and was like, there's 79 people right now that made a million dollars. I was just like, are you serious? Matt: Was it a boost of confidence? What did it do for you? Russell: It was one of those things, looking back on me doing these events where two people showed up and nobody showed up, hardly anybody, where I was so excited about this? I was like, how come nobody cares? To now it was like, this is actually, I've talked about this long enough people are believing it and now they're doing it. You start seeing it, and there's the fruits of it. In my mind I was like a million bucks, even then, ClickFunnel was new, I was like a million dollars is hard. Most of my friends I knew were like made somewhere near a million dollars. There were people who have been in this business for a long time. A million bucks is a big deal. That was most people's goal still. The fact that 79 people had done it, that was just weird to me. I think that was the biggest one, the realization that just like, oh my gosh. It's not just a theory and I think it works, it's working. It's working at a scale that was unfathomable to me at the time. 79 people. To go to 200 and then 500 and then 1,000 is crazy. Matt: What was your question, buddy? Speaker 4: You're talking about how at each level of success you hit, some of your mentors hit that ceiling, right? Because of the posturing, right? So ultimately I feel like when you get to a new level of success it requires you to upgrade your identity, your self image. What have you found is the number one routine, what's your process for upgrading the identity, upgrading your self image? Because I think that's so important because it can either hold you back and have you self sabotage and not take action and go after what you want, or it's going to be the thing that keeps you at that level and continues to propel you forward. What's kept you ... Russell: That's good. It's weaved through everything, right? The one that's the most obvious external, especially in our world, because you see marketers, most people when they first start selling whatever it is they're selling they're bragging about themselves. Here's my ad, here's my name. It's all about them, that's the first tier of it. And then the second tier, when they start having the realization, I feel like is when they stop talking about themselves and start talking about the people they've helped. Speaker 4: Mm. Russell: You see externally. You don't hear me talking about how much money I make. I'm not like, oh, check out what I got. I talk about all the other people. It's like, that's next year, is that. And then for me the third tier now, which has been really cool, is talking about Lady Boss, right? The success story isn't Kailin, it's Kailin's customers, right? So it's like that next tier. What you're talking about is like the external version of that. There's a lot of internal things that you've got to deal with, but you'll notice it shifting in people when you look at just their messaging and what they're saying. From the way they podcast, they video, they market, their ads and everything, it's the shift of it's not about me, it's about them. It's not even about them, that's the external version of it. Internally I think it's really, it's what we talked about, I can't remember why, but we brought up yesterday or today I had this really successful guy I met one time who the first time we met he was like tell me your story. So I was telling him the wrestle posturing story about how great I was. He was like, no. Tell me about the time you failed. So I was like, well, I'm in the middle of one right now. So I told him let me tell you. I told this whole thing. I remember afterwards I was so embarrassed. He's going to think I'm an idiot. You know, that fear? He was like, good, you cycled. I was like, what? He was like, I will not work with entrepreneurs who haven't cycled at least once. Because if they haven't then they still believe their own bio, right? I think that's the biggest thing, the internal version is that. The first time around, before you cycle, you think it's all you. I know for me it was. I remember doing this the first time, I'm like, I am a genius. I'm the smartest guy in the world. And then when it collapsed I was like, oh, there's a lot of things outside my control. This is not me. There is a team, there's God, there's all these other things that are making this possible. There's a scripture, I can't remember where it's at, it's the Bible, Book of Mormon, but it says you can either be humble or God will humble ... Ah, I'm misquoting it by far. But it's like God will humble people. You can be humble or he will humble you. So it's like, looking at that, I'm like round two I'm going to be a humble person because I don't want to be humbled again, right? Matt: I still feel it. Russell: This is not me. I understand, I look around now and it's 100% like there's no way I would be where I am right now if Dan Usher didn't make videos the way he does. There's no way I'd be here right now if Todd Dickerson could not code software the way he does. There's no way, all these things are so many people. Matt: You're so right. Russell: Then there's so many success stories that inside of it there's just so many people. And then there's the grace of God. I just look at the timeline of when ClickFunnels came into the market. I've now got funnels for a decade, nobody cared. Then all these things were happening, we started having the idea for ClickFunnels, started building it, we're creating it, and then literally we go to traffic and conversion, Todd's halfway done building ClickFunnels, and Ryan Deiss stands on stage in the biggest event at the time and he spends the entire four days talking about funnels. Talking about how funnels are the greatest thing. Everybody's like, what's a funnel? They're all taking notes. Me and Todd are like, does he know we're building? He's talking about funnels. He's talking about funnels like crazy. And then the next day everyone gets home from traffic and conversion and everybody that day, the next day 8,000 funnel consultants pop up. Everybody's a funnel consultant. Everyone is on Facebook talking about funnel consultants and teaching funnels and all this stuff. We're like, oh my gosh. Todd, get this software done, everybody's talking about funnels right now. So he's coding like crazy, all this stuff is coming around, all of a sudden everyone's like, millions of funnel consultants, everyone's doing it, and all of a sudden we're like, hey, we created this thing called ClickFunnels, here it is. All of a sudden all of the consultants and all the people and everyone came and we were the only platform. I look at that, as smart as I think I am, there is so much grace and timing. If I'd launched a year earlier, a year later, it would not have hit the way it did. 100% it was the timing of all these things that have to happen. If it wasn't for that ... I can act like I'm smart, I'm a genius, but man, there's so much divinity that came into all the things. There's no way it could happen without that. Anyway, just understanding those things. Matt: What did you learn when you were cycling? Russell: So many lessons. Russell, you are not that good looking. Or cool. Or anything. Matt: It's basically not about you, right? Yeah, I feel that. So what was hardest? What were the tough lessons? Caleb: How many times did you cycle? Russell: Two big ones for sure. Matt: Really? Do you mind sharing? Russell: Yeah, the first time was after I was trying to figure this thing out. I remember one of my buddies was like, you're making money online? I'm like, yeah. He's like, that's cool. I'm like, do you want a job? He's like, what? I'm like, you're the first person I know who's interested. I'll pay you to come hang out with me. He's like, all right. So I hired my friend. He's like, I have some friends too. I'm like, okay. So I start hiring all these people because I want someone to talk to. Anyway, it was really bad. I ended up having a whole bunch of employees nobody knew how to do anything. I didn't know how to train anybody. I was hiding in the room trying to make money to pay payroll while they're standing outside like, do you want us to do anything? I'm like, don't talk to me, I've got to make money to pay your payroll. They're like, we can help. I'm like, I don't have time to explain anything to you. It was horrible. I built it up to the point where it was just like, I was launching a new thing as fast as we could just to pay payroll. As an entrepreneur, you kill something you get to eat, right? It's like the greatest thing in the world. Employees, they want to get paid every two weeks whether they killed anything or not. I did not realize that until they were like we need money and I'm like, but we haven't made any money. They're like you have to pay me. I'm like, what? I'm so confused. Like, okay. Anyway, it had grown and we didn't have a model, sustainable. Speaker 3: You just launched stuff to see if it works? Russell: Yeah. When I was by myself it was like, I had an idea today, let's try it. You launch it, it makes some money, sweet. And then it was like, I made 20, 30 grand. It was my wife and I, so it was like, that lasts nine months. You know? Caleb: What did you sell? Obviously I know the potato gun backstory. You said I talked about funnels for like a decade before that. What were you selling during that decade leading up to ClickFunnels? I know it's an inordinate amount of stuff. Is there anything not even close to funnels, like something ... Russell: Yeah. The very first, pre-potato guns, my very first big idea was ... Back then what everyone was doing, you know who Yanik Silver is. Yanik would write a book and then he would sell the resale rights to the books. Someone else would buy it and they could sell it. I remember I got online, I saw these books, I bought a book from Yanik and I'm like, I can sell this. I bought a book from somebody else. I was buying all these eBooks I could sell. But then inside the books they would have links back to all their sites. I'd sell the book and I was like, I made 10 bucks selling the book. And then inside the book Yanik is selling his thousand dollar course and seminars and things. They make all this money. I'm like, I got 10 bucks. He made like $1,000 off of me selling his book. I remember being mad. I was like I wish there was a way I could brand this ebook so that before somebody opens it and sees his ad they'd see my ad. That was the first idea I ever had, ever. So my first product was called Zip Brander, it was this little thing that would take an ebook and it would brand it. You open it up and it popped up an ad. You see the ad and you click a button and it would take you inside the ebook. It was my first thing. We launched that and I sold 20 or 30 copies of it. But that was the first money I ever made, it was amazing. I had a customer list, I was like this is amazing. And then the way I was selling those, I was going to forums. This is pre-Facebook, so all you little kids, before Facebook, before MySpace, before Friendster, we used to go to these things called forums. They were these things where people would talk all day. So we'd go to these forums. One of the rules in the forums is you could comment all you wanted but you could have a signature file. At the end you could have like, Russel Brunson, check out my new software Zip Brander. I'd go to these forums and I would just spend eight hours a day answering questions and asking questions and everything. People see my ad on every little thing. My footer was on everything. That's how I was selling Zip Brander initially. I was in 50 forums posting like crazy but I couldn't keep up with it. I was like, man, if I could create a software that would manage this whole thing, that would be amazing. So my second product is called Forum Fortunes. It was this little software that would manage your posting on every single forum. You post and you could see if someone responded back on Forum 49 it would pop up and you're like, oh, you can go find it and go back and comment and keep the discussion. I made it for myself and then we started selling that. We sold more of those because I now had a little customer base here and went bigger. After that it was the next. It was always what's the next thing. That's kind of how it started back in the days, little tools and things like that. Speaker 3: How do you know when you're shooting all these bullets, how do you know when you shoot a cannonball? Matt: Good question. Russell: The thing about it initially, I had been married, I was making zero dollars a year as a wrestler, so for me to make $600 in a month, that was a cannonball. That was insane. I thought I was the coolest kid in the world. $600 was insane. So I did four or five little things. I remember it was Christmastime and I remember my wife wanted to buy a couch and it was a $2,000 couch. I was just like, oh, I can't afford that. I don't have a job. I'm getting sick to my stomach. I had this idea, what if I do a sell and just sell a whole bunch of crap that we had. I had a bunch of eBooks I bought rights to, a couple of things I had created, so we made this Grinch sale. I remember I wrote the copy, it was like, it was the Grinch Before Christmas or something. It had a picture of the Grinch and his heart growing three sizes, I don't know. I wrote this copy. My wife and I had been married a year, she really wants a couch, I can't afford a couch, so if you guys buy this, if I sell 32 of these things, I can buy her a couch and put it under the Christmas tree. It will be amazing. Caleb: You said that in the copy? Russell: In the copy, yeah. It was the reason why. I still have the page, I can show it to you. I know exactly where it's at, I can show it to you. So I had the whole page and then only an email list of like a couple hundred people at the time. I still had an affiliate program, so at the top it had an affiliate link. So I sent an email to my list and went to bed that night. Someone on my list was a guy named Carl Galletti, I haven't heard about Carl in a long time. He was a big famous copy writer at the time. Carl went and saw the thing, bought it, and started affiliating. So he joined the affiliate program, he was like this is awesome. He took that email, sent it to his entire list of this huge thing. So I go to bed. I wake up the next morning, we're at $10,000 in sales. Matt: How much before you went to bed? Russell: Oh, like $30, $40 or something. I was like, what just happened. Did I rob someone? I didn't know what happened. I looked at my email and there's all these people who were like, hey, I bought two of them, I hope you can get your wife that couch. Oh, I sent it to my friend. All these people. Because Carl promoted it, all these other people who follow Carl saw it. Carl is like it's converting like crazy. Tons of people are buying it. I'm freaking out. I'm going to wrestling practice trying to answer customer support. I'm late for practice, I ran into wrestling practice, I get back out I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I made like $600 in sales." I'm freaking out. Anyway, the whole thing goes through and over that, I think it was a seven day sale or something like that, we made $35,000. Which is more money than I'd seen in all my lifetime combined times 100, right? I paid probably 10 grand in affiliates. We made, I don't know, $25,000 that we got to keep. I was like, "Oh my gosh." I told Colette, and Colette's like, my wife. I love her. She doesn't understand the business part of things at all. I was like, "We made $25,000." She was like, "Is it illegal?" First thing. "Are you going to go to jail? Is it illegal?" I'm like, "No, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure." The first thing I did is I went and bought the couch for her, for Christmas. We got it back, I got a picture of her, sent it out to the list saying thank you so much, you got the Christmas gift, the couch. They all celebrated together, all the people. I was like oh my gosh, this is the greatest game of all time. This is so much fun. I was like, what's the next idea, what's the next thing. It was like that, these little things. After that one was done now I had way more customers, all these people that had bought my product knew who I was now so the next thing was easier so it incrementally kept growing and getting bigger. Somewhere along the line I launched the potato gun thing. Upsales of things. We didn't call them funnels back then. We called them sales flows or sales processes. Talk about your sales flow, what's your sales flow. Caleb: Sales flow. Russell: I remember Dylan Jones was our partner at ClickFunnels. Before Todd we tried to build something like ClickFunnels, we called it Click.com.com, which is a horrible name. But Dylan's, I still have all the UI images, and in there we had a whole section for sales flows and all these things. It's like, this was the first ClickFunnels. Because Dylan was on the UI eventually on ClickFunnels anyway, but we literally designed something like this five or six years earlier. Just crazy. Matt: Do you think that all those little failures and all the trying and that kind of energy is what brought you here today? Russell: For sure. It's the key. I wish I could grab everybody because everybody's like, okay, I'm waiting for my ClickFunnels, or I'm waiting for my thing. They're waiting and they're waiting and they're waiting. I was like, the reason why I got this thing was because I didn't wait. If someone were to give me ClickFunnels initially it would have been bankrupt in 15 minutes, right? You have to become worthy of the thing eventually. You don't become worthy by waiting, you become worthy by trying. And trying and trying and trying. Eventually, if you keep doing that, over time, then God's like, all right, he's going to do it. He's built 150 funnels, now I'll give him the idea. Matt: Wow, that's powerful. Speaker 3: How much more did you feel that all your other friends are in the same game? Matt: I hope you guys take there's more that's caught than Todd. That's some gold in what he just shared right there, what you were just sharing. But go ahead. What was the question? Speaker 3: I was just saying how much more would you fail if all your other friends were playing the same game? Russell: All my friends were like why are you launching more stuff? Why do you keep doing things? They do like one product launch a year. They got so annoyed. They were like, dude, stop doing stuff. I'm like, why would I stop doing this? This is so much fun. It was just confusing to me. Why don't you guys do more? Everyone, they make money they'd just be done. Caleb: Why would you keep doing more? Was it genuinely like one funnel away? Like this next funnel's the one. Were you just like you sold yourself on it, this is it, so you keep going? Or did you just really enjoy it? Russell: Well each one I thought was. Each one, every time I was so surprised, like this is amazing. That was the one. The next one's bigger. Oh my gosh, that was even better, who knew? And then I just kept going from there, you know what I mean? So I wasn't waiting for ClickFunnels or anything like that. I was just enjoying the journey every time. It was so exciting. Eventually it was like, oh crap, who knew that that was going to do what it did. Caleb: Was it all emails? Was there any ads or was there anything to scale the traffic? Russell: First 10 years was 100% emails, partnerships. There wasn't ads back then. I mean, there was Google ads, but the first initial Google slap happened about the time I was getting started. Prior to that a lot of guys I knew built their email list off of Google ads and then the slap happened. A lot of them had lists. I started getting to know those guys, going to events, meeting them, so that's how it started initially was tons of that. And then there was this big gap for years where paid ads weren't a thing. Some people did banner ads, but it wasn't consistent. It wasn't like it is nowadays. It was harder. You worked harder and all the stuff wasn't there. Mostly we focused on ... If you didn't have an email list, you weren't playing the game. It's like, who's got lists, how can you build lists, what can you do? Matt: You still think that's true to a degree? Russell: 100%. That's why the traffic seekers book was so important for me to write, I feel like, because most of the people in the game today have been blessed with Zuckerberg's simple Facebook ads that make the game easy. Matt: Wow. Russell: They've never focused on building lists. I was like, you guys, just so you know, Zuckerberg is going to screw us all. It's going to happen. Matt: Yeah. Caleb: It will happen. Russell: It's like, if you don't have a list you're all screwed. I've been through this for 18 years now, I've been through five or six cycles. I've seen people who made millions of dollars who now are not online. The people who have waded the storm the whole time are all the list builders. They're the ones who survived. Everyone else who's good at ads, they come and they go and they come and they go.

There can be only one, but Highlander's had a surprising number of media adaptations and spin-offs over the years. We take a look at all of them and even get some behind-the-scenes gossip about the infamous comic book tie-in: Highlander 3030. ----more---- Episode Transcript   Episode 05 [00:00:00] Mike: It's fine. It's fine. I'm not bitter. Mike: Welcome to Tencent Takes, the podcast where we make comics trivia rain like dollar bills on Magic Mike night. My name is Mike Thompson and I am joined by my cohost, the mistress of mayhem herself, Jessika Frazer. Jessika: Muahahaha! It is I hello, Mike. Mike: Hello. If you're new to the podcast, we like to look at comic books in ways that are both fun and informative. We want to check out their coolest, weirdest and silliest moments, as well as examine how they've been woven into the larger fabric of pop culture and history. Today, we are traveling through time and talking about the 35 year legacy of one of the strongest cult franchises around, Highlander. But [00:01:00] before we do that, Jessika, what is one cool thing that you've watched or read lately? Jessika: My brother has some copies of classic Peanuts Comics, and it's so much fun. It's good, wholesome, fun. And Snoopy- related media always makes me nostalgic. And Mike you've mentioned before that we're in California in the San Francisco Bay area, but fun fact, I live right near Santa Rosa, which is the home of the Peanuts creator Charles Schultz when he was alive. So there's a museum there and an ice skating rink. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Which is super awesome And Snoopy on ice was huge when I was a kid. And that is definitely the place I also learned to ice skate. By the way, they throw a mean birthday party, just saying, not right this second. Not this second. [00:02:00] We should do it is what I'm saying. Mike: We should do it for ourselves. Jessika: No, that's what I'm saying. Oh, I don't have children. Mike: But we do. Jessika: Yes, they can come with us, like they're invited. Mike: I mean, are they? Jessika: Look at you hesitating. Mike: We took the kids to the Peanuts museum right before the lockdowns happened. that really Jessika: That's really lovely that's nice got to do that. Mike: There’s a lot of cool stuff to do. It's really interactive. It's also just a really fascinating experience because there's so much about the Peanuts during their, what 50 year run give or take. It may not have been that long. It may have been 30 or 40, but it was a long time, and I really dug it, like there was a lot of cool stuff, so yeah . And also the cool thing about Santa Rosa is they've also got all those Snoopy statues all over town too. Jessika: They do. Yeah. All the [00:03:00] Peanuts characters actually. Cause they, the Charlie Browns and the Lucy's now and the Woodstocks. Yeah they're all over the place. But that used to be something fun we could do as a scavenger hunt, and actually that's something you guys could still do even with the lockdown. Cause most of them are outside is just find that list of where all the Snoopy's or whatever character is and go find them all. Cause we did that at one point, like as an adult, obviously. Well, what about you, Mike? Mike: The complete opposite of something wholesome. Jessika: Perfect. Mike: We didn't actually have the kids for a few days. They were with their dad and we couldn't find anything new to watch. So, we wound up bingeing the entire series of Harley Quinn on HBO Max. Jessika: Oh, you’re ahead of me then. Damn you. Mike: This is my third time going through the series. We've just gotten to the point where we turned it on when we want to watch something that's kind of soothing in a way, even though it is not a soothing TV show. But I still am [00:04:00] having these full on belly laughs where I'm breathless at the end and it's just, it's so smart and funny and absolutely filthy with the violence. And then there are these moments of sweetness or genuine reflection, and it's just so damn refreshing. I was never much of a Harley fan, but this show and then the Birds of Prey movie really made me fall in love with that character. Also side note, Michael Ironside who played General Katana and Highlander II. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: He shows up in Harley Quinn doing the voice of Darkseid, which is a character he's been voicing since the nineties when he first started doing it for the Superman animated series. Jessika: Oh, damn. Mike: So, just a little bit of symmetry there. Mike: All right. So before we begin, I have to say that this episode wound up being a rabbit hole full of other rabbit holes that I kept going down. So, I want to give a little credit where it's due for a ton of my research. I really wound up leaning on two books: John Mosby's Fearful Symmetry [00:05:00]; and A Kind of Magic: The Making of Highlander by Jonathan Melville. Likewise, there's a YouTube series called Highlander heart hosted by Grant Kempster and Joe Dilworthand, and an associated Facebook community with the same name that were just invaluable for my crash course. And finally, I want to give special, thanks to Clinton Rawls, who runs Comics Royale, and Matt Kelly for taking the time to chat with me because they didn't have to, and they provided me with some really useful information for this episode. Jessika: Yeah, I'm super excited about what lies in store. What's really funny is I've actually, I feel like a kid before it test. Mike: Right? Jessika: like I'm a little nervous because I've been cramming so hard for this Mike: We both have. Jessika: No, you, especially you, especially like you should be much more nervous than me, Mike. No, I’m just kidding, please don't take that on. Oh, but yeah, no I'm super excited and really ready to talk about all of this stuff and learn more because I've just been consuming the media and the [00:06:00] comic books. But, you’re going to give me some back knowledge that's gonna blow my brain and I'm excited. Mike: Oh, well, I'll try to live up to that high expectation. Let's assume that you didn't know what the topic of this episode was. And if someone asked you what cult property from the 1980s. Spawned five movies, two TV series, a Saturday morning cartoon, an anime film, several video games, multiple tabletop games, audio plays, roughly a dozen novels, and four okay, technically six different comic books. What would your first answer be? Jessika: Oh, goodness. What's funny is probably not Highlander. I'd probably I would say like Batman, honestly, Mike: Yeah I would've gone with something along the lines of G.I. Joe. Jessika: Oh, yeah. Mike: Or some weird Saturday morning cartoon, something like that. I never would have guessed Highlander. I never would have assumed that. but it's just, it's really surprising to see how [00:07:00] much has been generated out of this initial movie. Were you fan of the movies or the show before we started bingeing everything for this episode? Jessika: So I was actually a fan of the show via my dad who had it on hadn't watched the films before, because I was born in 1986 fun fact. Mike: Right. Jessika: I was born when this thing was sent into the world. We both were at the same time, apparently. I didn't have that exact experience of growing up watching it, but he definitely had the TV show on in the nineties Mike: Okay. Jessika: So that was what I was familiar with and I loved it and I would run around chopping things; I'd be at work, I was actually like when I got older I'd be like, there can only be one, and I’d like have to like swipe at someone. Mike: It’s such an iconic line. Jessika: iIt is! it transcends. Absolutely. Mike: Yeah. I was pretty young when the movie came out and the show was how I became aware of it. And then when the show was airing, I was in high school. And then I became [00:08:00] aware that there was a movie that had inspired it. And so I was able to rent that when I was old enough to be trusted, to go rent movies on my own by my parents. Back when we couldn’t stream everything. Jessika: Oh my gosh. Mike: And there were rewind fees, Jessika: Oh, my gosh. Be kind rewind. Mike: Speaking of things from the eighties: it’s funny we'll talk about it later on, but the show really brought in, I think a lot of people that otherwise wouldn't have been fans. Before we start talking about the comic books, I really want to take a few minutes to talk about all the media and content that spun out of Highlander because it's a lot. And it was honestly in a couple of cases, really surprising. I didn't know about half of this stuff before I began researching for the episode, and then. Like I said, it was just constant rabbit holes that kept on leading me down more and more research paths. And it was really fun. But I want to talk about all this now. Jessika: Perfect. This is exactly what we're here for, and I think that people want to hear it too. [00:09:00] Mike: I hope so. Okay. So why don't you summarize Highlander? If you had to give an elevator pitch, Jessika: The film follows the past and present of Connor MacLeod, an immortal who is just one of many vying to be the sole victor in an age old battle, where in the end, there can only be one. Like very simply a lot more to it, but like how much of an elevator pitch. Mike: I think that's pretty simple. It's about an immortal who basically keeps on fighting his way through history and there's these really wonderful catch phrases that get us hooked. The movies got actually a really interesting origin story of its own. It was written by this guy named Gregory Widen when he was in his early twenties. That was when he wrote the initial screenplay. But he had already had a really interesting life up until then. He was one of the youngest paramedics in Laguna Beach at that point in [00:10:00] time. And then he went on to become a firefighter while he was still a teenager. By 1981, he'd also worked as a DJ and a broadcast engineer. And then he signed up for a screenwriting course at UCLA and he wrote this feature length script called Shadow Clan. And it would go through a number of changes before it became Highlander. But the core theme of an immortal warrior named Connor MacLeod wandering across the centuries is there. He wound up getting introduced to producers Bill Panzer, and Peter Davis who decided to option the film. And then they hired the screenwriters, Larry Ferguson and Peter Bellwood to rework the script into what we eventually had wind up in theaters. And once the movie was green-lit, they brought in Russell Mulcahey to direct it. And I vaguely knew that Mulcahey had been doing music videos before this, for the most part, he had one other cult movie ahead of time. It was a horror movie, I think, called Razorback. But I didn't realize which music videos he'd been making until I started doing all [00:11:00] this research. So I'm going to give you a small sampling and you're going to tell me if you've heard of these. Jessika: Okay. Sure sure sure. Mike: Okay. The Vapors “Turning Japanese”. Jessika: Uh, yeah. Mike: Yeah, okay. The Buggles “Video Killed the Radio Star”. Jessika: Wow. Yes. Mike: Duran Duran Duran’s “Rio”. Jessika: Wow. Mike: And Elton John's “I'm Still Standing”. Jessika: Yeahwow. That's actually a variety of characters. Mike: Right? But also those all really iconic music videos. Like not only songs, but music, videos cause those were all in the very early days. And the dude's entire portfolio is just iconic. If you think about the music videos that really defined the genre Jessika: Yeah, sometimes you just got it, I guess. Huh? Mike: He has a lot of those music video elements. A lot of times in the movie, it feels like a music video, like when Brenda's being chased down the hall by the Kurgan and it's got all that dramatic lighting, or that opening shot where they're in the [00:12:00] wrestling match and you see the camera flying through everything. Jessika: Yes! Mike: That was wild. That was really unusual to see camera work like that back then. The movie was distributed by 20th century Fox. And I think at this point, We'd be more surprised of 20th century Fox did a good job of marketing weird and cool, because they really botched it. They wound up forcing cuts to the movie that created really weird plot holes because they didn't feel that audiences needed it or what would understand it, and they wanted to make it simpler, but it really made things more confusing. European audiences on the other hand, really embraced the film because they got a much better version. So case in point, I'm going to show you the two main posters for it. This is the American poster for the movie. Jessika: Mmhmm. Oh, wow, he’s scary. Wow wow wow, okay. Before I even say any of the words, what you first see is Connor [00:13:00] MacLeod, but it's this awful grainy picture of him. He looks like there's something wrong with his face, which he shouldn't necessarily. And he looks like he's about to murder someone. He's like glaring off into the distance. And at the top it says, Oh, it's in black and white, by the way. at the top it says, He fought his first battle on the Scottish Highlands in 1536, he will fight his greatest battle on the streets of New York city in 1986. His name is Connor MacLeod. He is immortal Highlander! Credits at the bottom, rated R, absolutely rated R. Mike: Also, I feel like featuring original songs by Queen does not get the billing that it should. Jessika: I agree. I jammed my way through that film and this just the whole series, [00:14:00] actually the whole franchise I jammed my way through. Mike: Yeah. And if you listen to the kind of Magic album that is basically the unofficial soundtrack to the movie, and it's so good I don't know how they got those perpetual rights to Princes of the Universe, did. Every time I hear that song, I get a little thrill up my spine. All right. So here's the poster though for the European release. Jessika: All right. So, Ooh, this is totally different. This is Whoa. This is way more exciting. Okay. First of all, it's full Color, my friends, right in the middle in red it says Highlander right under it “There can only be one” in yellow. Oh it's amazing. There's a little sticker at the bottom that says featuring original songs by queen. Look it, trying to sell it, I love it. And then there's Connor MacLeod in the center of the screen [00:15:00] dramatically head back eyes closed screaming his sword thrusts forward and behind him is the Kurgan, oh my gosh so good. It's so - Oh, and a backdrop of New York city. All in lights. It's beautiful. Mike: Yeah. It’s one of those things where basically, that documentary that we watched seduced by Argentina, they talk about that where they're just like 20th century Fox fucked us. Jessika: And I didn't realize how much until, because I did watch that as well. And I'm like how bad could it be? But I that's pretty bad. It's a pretty big difference. It's like watching, that'd be like going, expecting to see like psycho or something. Mike: Honestly, I keep on thinking of Firefly and Fox and how they just totally botched the marketing for that show and then the release, and issues with Joss Wheden aside. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: It’s one of those [00:16:00] things where again, it's a really beloved cult property with a really devoted fan base, even, 5 years after it was released, shit, almost 20. Jessika: And I do love Firefly, again, Whedon aside. Mike: I do too. Jessika: And it makes me a little sad think about it because it had so much potential. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Oh, it's so rough. It's rough to see. Mike: Yeah. What were your overall thoughts on the movie now that you've seen it because you hadn't seen it before this, correct? Jessika: No. I had only seen the TV show and probably rightfully so, because that was much less violent. I mean, much less graphically violent. They were still beheading motherfucker every episode, but, versus the film, which is like blood and like half a head and wow, there, it goes the head. But I actually really liked the movie. It was adventurous, it was thrilling and told a fairly cohesive and interesting storyline which unfortunately had an ending. But it still took us on an emotional journey. [00:17:00] Mike: Yeah, and I feel the same way. Jessika:: And how all the camp that I love from the 1980s and the special effects are just chefs, kiss love it. Mike: There is something so wonderful about the special effects from the 1980s, because they're so earnest all the time. And at the same time they look so cheesy by comparison now. Jessika: But you can tell they were trying so hard. It's almost like a little kid who's just learning to finger paint and they walk up and they're like, I did this thing. It's so good. You're like, it is really good. It's really good for where you're at. Mike: Yeah, exactly. Highlander is very much a quintessential eighties film to me, and there's both that nostalgia factor, but also it's a pretty tight little film. It doesn't really try to do anything too grandiose or too world-building because I don't think they expected to really make the sequels that they wound up doing. Which speaking of which we should discuss the sequels. [00:18:00] Mike: Like, I feel like you can’t discussion without talking about the sequels. And honestly the first time I ever heard of Highlander as a brand really was when I was visiting family in Texas And we were watching a Siskel & Ebert episode where they were thrashing Highlander II. Jessika: Dude, Siskel and Ebert I'm sure hated this. This does not surprise me in the least. Mike: I don't remember much about it, I just remember being like, oh Sean Connery's in a movie, well that's cool. Because my parents had raised me on all of the Sean Connery James Bond movies. Jessika: Yeah casting, come on. Why? Why? They had a French dude playing a Scottish guy and a Scottish guy playing a Spanish Egyptian guy. It's. Mike: I believe label was a Hispaniola Egyptian. They kinda darkened up Sean Connery a little bit too. I'm not sure. Jessika: It felt that way. I was just hoping he had just been under the tanning beds, but no, I think you're right. [00:19:00] Mike: Highlander II was definitely the most infamous of the sequels. And I mean a huge part of that is because it had such a batshit production and there’d been so many different versions of it. It was so bad that Russell Mulcahey reportedly walked out of the film premiere after only 15 minutes. There's this great documentary that you and I both watched on YouTube, it's split up into a bunch parts, but it was a documentary they made for the special edition of Highlander II. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: It was the third release of the movie that they put out because the first one was basically the bonding company for the films. Investors took over the production and assembly of the movie due to the fact that Argentina, where they were filming. And they had gone to Argentina because a, it was gorgeous, but B because it was supposedly going to be a third of the cost Jessika: Yeah. Mike: To make a movie there than it would elsewhere. Argentina’s economy collapsed and went through hyperinflation. And as a result, everything just went haywire. But they went back years later and they not only recut the [00:20:00] movie, but they refilled or added in certain scenes I think four or five years later. And then on top of that, they did the special edition a few years after that, where they redid the special effects. And I don't know it's kind of funny because it's not a bad movie now. It's not terrible. I feel it's an enjoyable film in its own way. But it's also funny where you watch that documentary and they're talking about the stuff that they're so proud of. Russell Mulcahey was talking about how proud he was of that love scene. I'm using this in quotes, love scene between Virginia Madsen and and Christopher Lambert where they just decided to do it up against the wall of an alley? Jessika: That’s always an interesting choice to me. Like you really cannot wait. Mike: Yeah. And then he was like, I thought that was a really hot scene. And I got to sit there and I'm like, I don't, I can't view this through the lens of, a 20 something guy in the 1990s. I don't know what my interpretation of it would have been then, [00:21:00] but watching it now watching it for the first time when I was in my twenties and the, in the early aughts, I just was like, this is weird and sorta dumb. And also they don't really have a lot of chemistry, but okay. Jessika: Yeah, it just kind of happens. They're just like, Oh, here you are. Mike: Yeah Right I don't know. At the same time it was cool to see they did all those really practical, special effects where they actually had them whipping around on the wires on like the weird flying skateboards and stuff. I thought that was cool. Jessika: I thought that was neat too. And how he was like, yeah, I actually got on top of the elevator and he was excited. Now he got on top of the elevator. Mike: And then they basically just dropped it down, like that's wild. So how about Highlander three? Jessika: Ahhh… Mike: Yeah, that’s kinda where I am Jessika: It’s very forgettable in my book. Mike: I feel like you could wipe it from the timeline and no one would care. Really, it felt like a retread of the first movie, but with the shittier villain in a way less interesting love story. honestly, it was a bummer because Mario [00:22:00] Van Peebles, the guy who plays that the illusionist I can't even remember his name. It was that forgettable. Jessika: Yeah, no, I can't either. Mike: Mario van Peebles is a really good actor and he's done a lot of really cool stuff. And it just, it felt like he was the NutraSweet version of the Kurgan Jessika: I like that. Yes. Yes. Mike: All of the mustache twirling, none of the substance. Jessika: It leaves a little bit of a weird taste in your mouth. Mike: Right. Splenda Kurgan! Moving on Highlander, Endgame. Jessika: What I do like about this film is that in both the TV series, as well as the film, there is the actual crossover. Connor shows up in Duncan's world and Duncan shows up in Connor's world and there is that continuity, which is good. And I do appreciate that because, before I got into this, I assumed that the character was interchangeable and we were just seeing different actors James [00:23:00] Bond situation. And when I went back and realized like, Oh no, he's his own character, they're blah, you know. Mike: I dunno I saw this in theaters I love the show and I appreciated that it felt like an attempt to merge the movies in the series and of the movies, I feel like this actually has the strongest action scenes. There's that bit where Adrian Paul faces off against Donnie Yen. And I was like, that's gotta be really cool to be able to sit there and show your kids much later in life: hey, I got to do a martial arts scene with Donnie Yen and he didn't kill me in the movie. that's pretty dope. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: Again, it felt underwhelming. It just wasn't all that interesting. And also I spent years being mad at that movie because the trailer brought me into the theater expecting something way different than what we were going to get Jessika: Okay. And I don't know that I saw the trailer. Mike: It has, it has a bunch of scenes with Magic where Connor and Duncan jumped through a portal [00:24:00]. Jessika: What? Mike: And a sword gets thrown at Jacob Kell and he catches it midair. And then he does something else where he's holding a sphere where you see Connor's face screaming and then it shatters. Jessika: What’s with all this weird, extra scene stuff in these trailers. I don't understand. Mike: Yeah, it turns out that this hasn't, this has never really been officially confirmed, but reading between the lines yeah, it’s been confirmed. They basically filmed extra scenes just to make it more appealing for people. So they would show up to the theaters. Like they filmed scenes, effectively they filmed scenes just for the trailer the director when he was asked about it in Fearful Symmetry. He basically said, yeah, I know there was some stuff that they filmed for marketing afterwards, and I wasn't involved with that. And then I think it was Peter Davis that was asked about this for the book. And he basically said, Oh, this is a really standard practice. People, or accompanies [00:25:00] film stuff for for marketing purposes all the time. And that's where he left it. Jessika: Oh, okay. to know. Mike: I was really grumpy about that, but that said I've softened a little since then. Do we even want to talk about the Source? Cause I feel like that's something that we shouldn't talk about in polite company. Jessika: No pass. Mike: Okay. Jessika: It happened? Mike: It happened, it was a thing that happened that was going to be a trilogy. They were planning to make that into a trilogy of movies. Jessika: Ohh rough times. Mike: Oh it's real bad. I don't think you were able to watch this, but Highlander, the search for vengeance. It's the anime. Jessika: No, I couldn't find it. Mike: Yeah. It's not available for streaming and it really it's really a bummer because it's actually pretty good. I'm not quite sure how to qualify it because it's not a live action movie and it doesn't star Duncan or Connor, but it's a full length anime. It's a full length movie in its own right. It focuses on Colin MacLeod who he’s [00:26:00] an immortal, who's technically part of the MacLeod clan. He's born as a Roman Britain and then he's adopted into the MacLeod clan after he fights alongside them later on. They keep on doing this. They keep on going back to dystopian SciFutures, which I kinda like, Jessika: I love, bless their little hearts. Mike: Yeah. A lot of the story actually takes place in this post-apocalyptic 22nd century, New York. And I haven't seen this in about a decade because it's not available on streaming. I don't have the DVD anymore. I really should pick it up before it goes out of print. But the movie fucking slaps. It was directed by Yoshiaki Kawajiri, he was really big in the nineties. He did Ninja Scroll and Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust. He's known for really cool looking movies that are also really violent at the same time. Like you look at his characters and you're like, Oh yeah, no, they all look interchangeable because they're also similar one movie to another, Jessika: Oh, I see. Mike: But they're really cool. And the movie was written by David Abramowitz, who was the head writer [00:27:00] for the TV show. So it felt like a pretty legit Highlander story. Honestly, if we had to talk about this and ask which of these movies or the sequels were our favorites, I would probably say the Search for Vengeance. Because I loved it so much, but since that wasn't a theatrical release, we'll exclude that and you didn't get to watch it. Of the sequels, which did you enjoy most? Jessika: Mike, why don’t you go first. Mike: Okay. I'm a little torn, I guess I enjoyed Endgame mainly because it feels like part of he in quotes, real Highlander story, I guess it's the least terrible of the sequels. And it brought in my favorite characters. The final version of Highlander II, is I don't know. I don't hate it. It honestly feels like a cool dystopian cyberpunk story with some bizarre Highlander lore shoehorned in, but at the same time, it's not the worst thing I've ever watched. How about you? Jessika: Funny [00:28:00] enough, I was going to say Highlander II, but maybe just a bit more so if it were its own standalone movie and not try to be a part of the Highlander franchise. The idea of the shield is super interesting and I think they could have elaborated more on the lead-up and the resolution of that issue rather than having to also make it about the Immortals in their forever game. Mike: Yeah, I agree. How do you feel about moving onto the TV series? Jessika: Oh, I am pro. Mike: Okay. I personally feel like this is the property that sucks all the air out of the room when you're talking about Highlander. Jessika: Oh no. Mike: Yeah, I mentioned that this is how I really got introduced to the brand. I started watching it in high school, around season three, which was when it was really starting to get good. The first two seasons I feel were kind of when they were ironing out all the rough spots. But I wound up watching it through the end. So if you're listening to this podcast and you have never seen the [00:29:00] show Highlander, the series ran for six seasons, which is a good length of time for any TV show. And it followed the adventures of Duncan, who was another member of the MacLeod clan. He was a distant cousin of Connor. And the show bounced between Seacouver, which is a fictionalized version of Vancouver in Paris. And it basically retcon things so that the original movie didn't end with The Quickening, but that the battle between the Kurgan and Connor was it's implied, it was the start of The Gathering. That's my interpretation of it. Jessika: That was what I got too. Mike: Yeah. And Christopher Lambert, he shows up in the pilot to help set things up and get them moving. But I think that's the only time we ever really seen him on the show. Jessika: Correct. He's really just an intro. He's in that first episode only. Mike: You have rewatched it as a have I . We haven't watched the entire series all the way through, but we've watched a lot of episodes. Jessika: Correct. Mike: How do you feel [00:30:00] it measures up today? compared to that nostalgic view that we had before, Jessika: I had a lot of fun watching it, actually. definitely super cheesy. I don't love all of the characters I watched a lot of the first season, then I bounced around I think I did the top, like 25 on a list that you sent me. But Duncan’s just so codependent sometimes with his characters and it's like the one time the Tessa goes on a hike by herself, she gets kidnapped by an, a mortal and it’s like, oh my God, she can't even go on a fucking hike, are you joking me? And the one time he goes to the store by himself, he gets kidnapped and it's like, oh, come the fuck on you guys. Mike: Yeah, I feel like it generally holds up pretty well. It's a little uneven, but when it hits , it really hits. And it's a lot of fun. And considering that it was a relatively low budget show on basic cable in the early to mid-nineties, there's a lot of stuff that has aged way worse. [00:31:00] Jessika:: Absolutely. It exceeded my expectations on the rewatch, for sure. Mike: Yeah, and I have to say that one really cool thing about Highlander is it's got a really large female fan base. And I suspect that the show is really responsible for that. Jessika: I would agree. There's a few reasons. Mike: Are six of those reasons. Duncan's abs? Jessika: Like 10 of those reasons are all the times he gets surprised in a bathtub. I know I messaged you while I was watching them, because I was like Duncan got surprised in a bathtub again. Mike: I don't remember which episode it was, but there's one where he is surprised while he's in a bathrobe and he's got, it's not even tighty whities, it’s like a bikini brief, and watching that, I was just sitting there going, thank you for this gift. Thank you. Thank you for this visual treat that you have given us in the middle of my very boring work day. Jessika: It’s [00:32:00] also that there are such a wide variety of female characters. I would say, Iit’s not just the other female person he seeing or whatever, the love interest, there are other female Immortals and they a lot more frequently than they do in the films. I can't recall if they have any female immortals in the films. Mike: They do in Endgame. Jessika: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I thought there was, there were some in there, but that’s tailing into, I mean yeah. Mike: Yeah. And the Source had them too, but meh. Jessika: Oh yeah. Mike: I will say that the show was pretty good about writing pretty strong female characters, I felt. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: And we'll talk about Amanda in a little bit, but I have to say that I really liked how she was written and how Elizabeth Grayson played her through the original series and then her own afterwards. I dunno. I, what do you think is the sexiest thing about Duncan MacLeod? I'm curious. Jessika: He seems [00:33:00] really like trustworthy, but like and sexy trustworthy. It's like, he'd be the dude. I called if some guys were fucking with me. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: I kept on thinking about how there's this Tumblr post that's been going around the internet, regularly, and it's this discussion about which Disney men women find the sexiest guys always thinks it's Gaston. Jessika: Oh lord, why? Mike: It’s that male power fantasy thing where they're just like, oh no, like he's like really charming. And he's really muscly. And the counterargument from women is usually A no Gaston sucks and B we all like Roger from 101 Dalmatians. Jessika: Oh yeah. Roger. Mike: Which, Roger is very much my personal role model. The dude's a talented musician, he loves animals and he's got that great, a snark where he literally is trolling the villain when she comes to his house with a motherfucking trombone from upstairs [00:34:00]. And I think Duncan's a little like that. Like he's cultured and he's worldly and he's got this wicked sense of humor. And he's also the type of dude who has no problem reciting poetry in public or making his partner breakfast in bed. Jessika: Yeah, absolutely. Mike: So it just it was something that came to mind while I was rewatching all this stuff. Jessika: Yeah. just as like a wholesome guy. Mike: Right? Jessika: He always has good intentions. So that's actually what it feels like. He's always coming at things with good intentions. Mike: Yeah, and he's not perfect, but he's always trying to do the right thing, which I really appreciate. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: What was your favorite episode? Jessika: I went back and forth. I really like the Homeland episode, and like I said, I've really only watched a good chunk of most of season what I would say, and then so kind of bounced around, but season four, episode one. It was really sweet to see [00:35:00] Duncan take the obligatory trip back to his Homeland to pay respects. And it also had a good lesson in not judging a book by its cover as the main character assumes that Duncan is just an ancestry tourist, which was super interesting. She was super hating on it but I was like this is interesting instead of visiting what once was literally his home during formative years. So it was just such a wild thing to see her be like, what are you doing near those graves? And he can't really be like, they were my parents because you cannot even read them. They are so old. Mike: The funny thing is I didn't rewatch that episode during our refresher, but I remember watching that episode when I was about 15 or so. Because it's stuck out to me. Jessika: It’s really good. And of course, Duncan, he always has a good intention. The whole reason he went back was because he figured out that somebody had been [00:36:00] pilfering graves Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And he had to return what was in this grave. Mike: I know he's making the rest of us look bad. So mine is, it's unusual suspects. It's from season six, which I feel is actually pretty weak season overall. And it's this really silly one-off episode, starring Roger Daltry of the Who fame. He plays Hugh Fitzcairn, which is a character that he shows up in plays a couple of times throughout the series. And at this point in time in the story, he was dead, but it's a flashback to the 19 teens or 1920s. 1920s, because it ends with the stock market crash, but it's a take on the British country, house murder, mystery genre, and it's really fun. And it was just this really refreshing moment of levity after what I felt our run of really heavy, and in my opinion, not very good episodes. The end of season five and the beginning of season [00:37:00] six are all about Duncan confronting this demon named Aramon and it's weird and it's not very good. And I really don't enjoy it. This is all my opinion. I'm sure that I'm insulting some Highlander fan who absolutely loves this, but it's a fun episode in its own. And then it's a good moment after one that I didn't really enjoy. And so it's got that extra refreshing bonus. I just, I want to note, it's really funny to me how intertwined Highlander has always been with rock and roll and music in general, because they had Mulcahey who do it, doing all these music videos and stuff. And then they kept on having musicians show up as guest stars. I think it was there's a character named Xavier St. Cloud, I think who was played by one of the guys from, again, I think, Fine Young Cannibals? Jessika: Yeah, I think I actually watched that episode. Mike: I think he was using nerve gas to kill people. Jessika: Yes I did watch that episode. That was a wild one. Yeah. Mike: Yeah, and I think he shows up later on too. [00:38:00] I can't remember but anyway, I really appreciate that they gave Roger Daltry of all people, this character, and he just really had fun with it and they kept bringing him back. Jessika: Yeah. He was a good character every episode he was in my other favorites was the one where they had Mary Shelley and he was in that one too. I believe. Mike: I think so. Yeah. No, it was, the series was really fun, and I liked that we can sit there and pull all these episodes just from memory that we really liked. Jessika: Absolutely. Mike: So season six , they were trying to find a new actress who could carry her own Highlander show. And so they tested out a bunch of different actresses in season six and gave them either really strong guest appearances, or they were basically the main character for episodes. But they wound up not going with any of them. They went with Elizabeth Grayson and gave her the Raven where she reprised her roles Amanda. Did you watch any of that? Did you get a chance to? Jessika: I watched the [00:39:00] first and the last episode of season one, I can only find the first season. Is there only one? Mike: There’s only one season, it didn’t get picked up again. Jessika: Oh then there you go. Then I could have only, I know I was scratching my head. Worried about where else do I find this? Mike: Well, and it ends on a cliff-hanger. Jessika: Yeah, exactly. That's where I was like, let's go. Mike: It ends with Nick becoming immortal. Jessika: Oh, see, I didn't quite finish it. Cause I was hurriedly setting it up in the background. Mike: Yeah it was fine. I thought Elizabeth Grayson is really charming in that role, but at the same time, there wasn't a lot of chemistry initially between Amanda and Nick, I felt at the very beginning. Jessika: I agree, not in the first episode. Mike: By the end of the season, it was there, and I think they were also, as is the case with most shows first seasons, they were trying really hard to figure out what they wanted to do. And so originally it was a cop show with an immortal, which there are certainly worse pitches that I've heard. Jessika: Yeah. No, I agree. Mike: But yeah. sad that it didn't get to go further [00:40:00] Jessika: I'm tempted to go back and watch all of these things. I may have to do a pallet cleanse of something different. I may have to go back to my Marvel watching. Mike: On top of this, there was a Saturday morning cartoon called Highlander, the series or Highlander, the animated series, and it was set in the future. It's in a weird alternate timeline. It stars another MacLeod. It's fine It's a Saturday morning cartoon. I didn't even care enough to really go back and watch it because being that great. They did some interesting stuff. Like they brought Ramirez back if I remember, right. And then they also had a thing where instead of beheading other Immortals, the main character had an ability where he could be voluntarily given their power. Jessika: Oh. Mike: So he had all of their knowledge and power. And again, it’s again in a dystopian future where another immortal has taken over the world. Jessika: Wow. They just love their dystopian future. Mike: They really do. But yeah, it's fine. I think it's streaming on Amazon prime. I was just so focused on everything else that I didn't get a chance to go and [00:41:00] rewatch it. Jessika: Huh, good to know. Mike: We're going to go over all the other various pieces of media real quick. and then we've got one side tangent and then we're going to go through comic books, but. Jessika: I'm so excited. Mike: Books, Highlander wound up having a pretty substantial literary footprint. The original movie had the official novelization. There wasn't really anything after that until the show came out and then the show had 10 novels and an anthology and an official behind the scenes kind of book called the Watchers Guide and it's full of essays and interviews and photos. And since then, there've been a couple of non-fiction books, like Fearful Symmetry, which is about everything Highlander related. And it's almost like a textbook, but it's pretty good. And then there's also A Kind of Magic, which is more focused on making of the original movie. And those are both actually really good. I liked them a lot. They were really easy to read. [00:42:00] There were audio plays, which I keep on forgetting audio plays are a thing at this point, but it's by this company called Big Finish in the UK. They do tie-in audio dramas for television properties. Most famously they do Dr Who. They wound up doing two seasons of audio plays. The first had Adrian Paul reprise his role as Duncan and they take place after the series ended. And then also after the events of Endgame, you can't really find them anymore. Because they just, the license expired so they aren't selling them as far as I'm aware. Jessika: That's super interesting though. Dang. Mike: Yeah. And then the second season focuses on the four horsemen Immortals, remember Jessika: Okay. Mike: Do you remember them? Jessika: I sure do. Mike: Because we were talking about this a little bit, but it was all about Methos and the other guys that he hung out with when he was effectively, a comic book villain who would've if he’d had a mustache to twirl, he would have done it. Jessika: So quickly. Yes. Mike: I thought that was really interesting. There were a couple of people in the Highlander Heart [00:43:00] group who talked about it and they seem to really like them. I can't comment, but it was really neat. Games, this is the one that's really interesting. Highlander actually has been turned into a number of games over the years. There's a couple of tabletop games we're going to breeze through. So there was two different card games in a board game. One of the card games was released back in the nineties, it was a collectible card game. And this was right when Magic: The Gathering was really hot and everybody was trying to get in on that action. And then recently there's a new one called Highlander: The Duel. And it's a deck-building game where you play as Connor or the Kurgan going up against each other. And just a couple of years ago, there was a board game that got kick-started, it was in 2018 and it's this fast paced game for two to six players. The reviews across the web were pretty positive. And again, it's one of those things where it's Immortals battling for that mysterious prize. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: But it's cool. Jessika: Nice. Mike: I’m actually pretty surprised [00:44:00] we never got like a tabletop RPG because they are not precious about applying the license for Highlander to stuff. I'm amazed that nobody went to them and said, Hey, we can make this cool historical RPG where we sorta start having players wake up and then they have flashbacks or whatever. And Jessika: Yeah Oh that would have been cool Yeah Mike: Right? But yeah we never got anything like that which I was really I actually that was the one thing I expected and was surprised to see that we never got. Okay. So we're going to go into mini tangent with video games even though they aren't technically related to comics. The first game for Highlander was a 1986 tie-in release for home computers. It was a really simple fighting title. It wasn't well received. It was apparently pretty bad. So after that the animated series had a tie in called Highlander: Last of the MacLeods. It was released on the Atari Jaguar CD console. If you remember that. Do you remember the Atari Jaguar? Jessika: Oh my god, no. I don't. [00:45:00] Mike: It kinda got lost in the shuffle in the early to mid nineties of all the different consoles that were coming out. But you can find footage of this on YouTube and it's one of those early 3d games. And so it got a lot of praise for his exploration elements and animated video sequences, but it also got a lot of criticism for its controls in combat. After that there was actually going to be an MMO called Highlander, The Gathering. And it was in development by a French studio called Kalisto entertainment, which was honestly weird because Kalisto's catalog up until now were mostly middling single-player games. They'd gotten famous for a series called Nightmare Creatures, but they also did a Fifth Element racing game on PS2 that I had and was actually pretty fun. Anyway, Kalisto went bankrupt before the MMO could come out. Jessika: Oh! Mike: And none of the folks who, yeah, that's video games. Jessika: Fair enough. Mike: So they went bankrupt. The MMO hadn't come out yet. And the folks who wound up with the rights afterwards just decided to kill the project. There's [00:46:00] one other game. That's become the source of a lot of speculation. And it's only known as Highlander: The Game it basically came about because Davis Panzer productions that's, the guys who own the rights to Highlander, and SCI, which was this holding company that owned a bunch of video game groups. They decided to ink a deal, to make a Highlander game. They announced that they basically had done a partnership back in like 2004, 2005. And at the time SCI owned Eidos who was the publisher that gave us Tomb Raider. So they were a pretty big name. The game itself was formally announced by Eidos in 2008 and the development was being handled by another French developer called Widescreen Games. It was going to be an action role-playing game. It would star a new Immortal named Owen MacLeod. The story was going to be written again by David Abramowitz and that added some [00:47:00] serious legitimacy to the project for fans. Actually, why don’t you read the summary. Jessika: Would love to my pleasure. Summary: Owen is captured and enslaved by Romans who force him to compete as a gladiator. During this time, Owen dies only to come back to life. Methos, the oldest living immortal approaches Owen to be his mentor. He teaches Owen about the game and how he and other Immortals can only be slain by beheading. As with other immortal MacLeods Owen is pursued throughout his life by a nemesis. This enemy proves to be extremely powerful. One that Owen is unable to defeat Owen learns of a magical stone, fragments of which are scattered all over the world. Throughout the game, Owen embarks upon a quest to recover these fragments and restore the stone in an attempt to gain the power to overcome his foe. [00:48:00] So dramatic. I love it. Mike: What's Highlander without any drama? But that sounds rad right? Jessika: Oh, it sounds amazing. Mike: The game was announced with a trailer in 2008 that really only showed some of the environments from different eras and then it ended with an image of Owen, but it looked promising. And then there wasn't much else after a couple of years of pretty much nothing but radio silence, Eidos wound up canceling the game and that's where a lot of the speculation has started. There's not a lot of information on Highlander: The Game. I keep waiting for one of those gaming history YouTubers to get ahold of an old dev kit and then do a video with a build, but that hasn't happened yet. So really it's all kind of speculation and wishful thinking about what could have been. And it also seems like some of the details are getting muddied as time goes on. Like Fearful Symmetry talks about the game of it but they [00:49:00] have the segment. And again I want you to read this. Jessika: Sure sure. The gam was so far along in its development stages that segments including backdrops and some of the gameplay options were presented at a Highlander Worldwide event in Los Angeles 2006 and got a very positive reaction. The beautifully rendered backdrops were almost movie quality and included the likes of Pompei, a dark forest in the Highlands, New York, and Japan as gameplay locations and introduced us to another MacLeod, Owen, the same surname but a much earlier vintage. Mike: Yeah, so, I think Mosby is a little overly enthusiastic about all of this, and this is because I think Mosby doesn't have much familiarity with how game development works. It sounds like they had concept art on display and were discussing gameplay [00:50:00] rather than showcasing a build of the game. Concept art and design discussions are things that happen very early in game development. But if you're an outsider, looking in this stuff could easily be interpreted as things being much further along than they were. Jessika: Ah. Mike: Yeah. Now that said, I did work in video games for almost a decade, and a few of my coworkers were actually involved with Highlander the game. Jessika: What? Mike: Every one of them over the years has told me the cancellation was a mercy killing. And again, this is from multiple sources, so I'm not going to name or identify because, I don't want to make things awkward for them. But basically the game was garbage . It's not really surprising to hear cause widescreen never really made a good game, the best reception that any of their titles got was just kinda mixed. But earlier this week, I actually called one of my friends. Who'd been [00:51:00] attached to the project because I wanted to get more information about this game before we recorded. Jessika: We need to get you a new shovel, you dug so deep for this. Mike: With both hands. But, they confirmed what I've been hearing from other people the gameplay itself wasn't just bad. It was boring. The biggest problem was it didn't know what kind of a game it wanted to be. Basically, it was trying to do everything all at once. There were a bunch of traversal elements, which didn't really make a lot of sense. Like why would you climb a Manhattan skyscraper when you're a roided out dude with a sword? Couldn't you just take the elevator? Or I don't know the stairs? There was going to be a bunch of Magic elements in the gameplay, which, isn't really, that's not really a thing in Highlander. There's that fantasy element because we're talking about Immortals who can't die unless you cut off their heads, but generally Magic isn't a part of the accepted Canon. And then the combat, what they were aiming to do something like [00:52:00] God of war, which was really big at the time. But, it wasn't great. My friend also pointed out that Owen looked like a bodybuilder, but his fashion sense was from that industrial metal scene of the late nineties, which neither of those things really fits with the Highlander aesthetic because Adrian Paul was arguably the most in shape of the Highlander actors. But even that was, he was a dude who was like, yeah, I could achieve that if I was really good about my diet and then just worked out aggressively but not like Hugh Jackman does for his Wolverine roles. Jessika: Yeah, yeah. Mike: So I'm going to send you a screenshot of what Owen looked like in the key art the initial title it does. Jessika: What? It looks like Criss Angel. Mike: Right. And they're trying to recreate that iconic pose of The Quickening from the first movie that Connor does at the very end where he's getting raised up and, by the rails of Lightning, or the wires [00:53:00] of lightning. Jessika: Yeah, I get what they were trying to do. Mike: Yeah,I wanna know, what the fuck is up with those weird straps with rings that are going down his legs. Jessika: I don't really know, I was trying to figure that out myself. So just so that everyone can really get the picture that we're getting here and you'll, you might understand why it's taken me so long to describe it. I had to take it all in first. Mike: Yeah, it’s a ride. Jessika: It’s all very monochromatic. And the background is of course, a cut of the statue of Liberty, the backdrop of parts of New York that I'm sure aren't even next to each other, which is always funny. And then what is this? Is this the new guy, or is this supposed to be Duncan? Mike: Yeah, this is the new guy, Jessika: It’s Owen. Mike: Yeah. It's Owen. And then Connor and Duncan were supposed to appear, supposedly. I know Peter Wingfield was recording his lines for Methos. Jessika: Well, if they haven't killed off Methos that makes sense. And I don't know in the series if they have, and maybe Duncan makes [00:54:00] sense if he hasn't died yet, but. Mike: Yeah they can't kill off Methos, Methos was my first gay crush. Jessika: Yeah. He's. Slightly problematic in a couple episodes, but he's a great character overall. But he's very Chriss Angel, he's wearing like a trench coat and that has to be some sort of a lace undershirt or something. Mike: lAnd he’s got like a weird really, like baggy leather pants. Jessika: Yes. Which cannot be comfortable. It's doing this weird pooching thing in the front. Mike: Yeah, and then I think I saw another screenshot where it looks like he's wearing skater shoes tennis shoes as well. Jessika: Oh, Vans Off the Wall, man. Mike: Just once I want to see a MacLeod in the movies with a good fashion sense. Jessika: Yeah, I mentioned that I wanted to cosplay as Duncan, which overall would be a great idea. But then I was looking through his outfits and I'm like, what do I wear? Do I wear this weird white tank top with these like acid wash jeans [00:55:00] and a belt? Or is this the one where I'm wearing like five shirts and a long jacket? Is it that day? Mike: You know who he looks like that guy, Canus. Jessika: Yes! Yes, does. He has the lace shirt and everything. Mike: And the dog collar. Jessika: Oh my god, it was so funny. I told you, I think it was trying to be edgy. Mike: Yeah, and instead it comes off as really queer-coded. Jessika: It really does though. I know, my little queer brain was like bling. Mike: Yeah, It feels like they weren't really getting the essence of what Highlander actually was and who these guys were, because usually the Highlander characters are a little bit more believable and ordinary because that's the whole idea is that they're walking among us and we have no idea unless they tell us. Okay. On top of all this. So remember how I mentioned that trailer was just showcasing environments for the [00:56:00] game. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: There was a reason for that. The reason was that they couldn’t get the character models to work. Jessika: Oh! Mike: So the shot of Owen at the end it's actually just animated key art it's the same it's the same art that you just saw. It's that image. It was just slightly animated. And then they released a couple of screenshots for the game, but apparently they were really heavily photo-shopped well, beyond industry standards. So, it was one of those things where, this was a turd and it needed to be flushed. And it finally did. But Widescreen went under about a year after the game was formally announced. They were working on another big project and apparently that got taken away, and as a result, it just caused the studio to implode. By this point in time Square Enix the guys do all the final fantasy games had bought Eidos and they formally canceled it. We're not sure why exactly, my guess is that it was probably, they just looked at cost it would take to finish this game and then the [00:57:00] amount that it would need to sell in order to be profitable or to meet their sales expectations for it and they just thought it wasn't worth it. But yeah, my friend actually said they were embarrassed to work on it and they would have been fine even if it had been an average game, but it was just bad. Even one of those kind of middling average games, I think that would have been fine, that would have lived up to the Highlander bar. Finally, there's that Highlander game that spark unlimited was working on. I never even heard a whisper about this until. We watched that episode of Highlander Heart focusing on video games, and they brought Craig Allen on to talk about the project. Based on what we know now, I think this might be why Square Enix was holding onto the rights for another year after they shut down Highlander, the game, just because they had this other title, theoretically in development or very early development. Based on the footage that they have, it looks like they had at least done enough development work to put together a vertical slice that they could show for pitch [00:58:00] purposes and at conventions. But I thought it was really promising looking overall. What did you think? Jessika: I thought it did look really interesting the game play itself I did like the idea of having a female Highlander. That being said, they had this whole concept about what Craig Allen was calling beautiful damage. Mike: Yeah. Jessika: And it was this whole thing about, oh it was the first female Highlander and her looks go when she gets damaged, and that's her whole motivation is to stay pretty. And I just, that gave me a huge headache, and it of course was super male-gazey I mean, the game itself seemed that way. Mike: It was weird because I would love to see women and Highlander being built a little bit more like warriors, like a little bit more muscly, which would be in keeping with people who battle across the centuries. [00:59:00] They don't need to be super jacked like the Amazons in Wonder Woman, but making them look like stick thin suicide girl, punk rock chick from the late aughts. Didn't quite gel with me. I understood what he was talking about though, because that was the thing where they were starting to do permanent cosmetic damage in video games. That was something that was really big in the Batman Arkham games. Every time that you got knocked out, you'd come back and you'd have a little bit more of your outfit chipped apart. So, after a while Batman's looking pretty ragged and you realize maybe I'm not as good at this game as I think I am. Jessika: Yeah And the concept itself is really interesting It just I guess was the way it was phrased by this person. And it very much was he was so proud of the fact that it was the first Highlander female in a video game. And then everything was just like so incredibly sexist. I was excited that I wasn't Mike: We're also viewing it, with the lens of 2021 at this point. At that time, [01:00:00] that was before they had relaunched Tomb Raider, in 2013, 2014, where they made her much more realistic. She was still very fit, but she wasn't the Lara Croft that had generated a lot of criticism. I think possibly, I don't know, but I hope that it would have been marketed a bit differently if it had been done today. That said we also don't know exactly what it would look like as a final product. Jessika: Oh absolutely, yeah. Mike: It’s, I agree. It's a little bit problematic viewed through the current lens. At the same time, like a lot of the Highlander properties when it was being done, I think it was kind of just par for the course. Jessika: Yeah, fair enough. But, I did like the idea of having a female Highlander and having her have a whole story regardless of whether it's the first one to be completely [01:01:00] tragedy laden which was the other comment like her experience a ton of loss because she's female and experiences empathy unlike the male characters. Mike: I really didn't like that. Actually. I thought that was. I mean the, the whole thing where they were saying we wanted to focus on lifetimes of tragedy as opposed to enjoying multiple lives. And I'm like, that's the whole purpose of Highlander. That's what I really like is when you sit there and you watch them having fun and doing all this interesting stuff. Jessika: Women aren't allowed to have fun, Mike. Mike: Apparently. Jessika: We just have to have lives full of tragedy and pining for people that we've lost in our lives. Mike: Well, yeah. And we all know that the dudes don't have feelings, so we just, you know, go on and enjoy things. Jessika: That does suck that Hugh they don't give men the ability to have that capacity or give them the the credit to have that capacity. Mike: I will say, I am sorry that this one didn't get further along the development [01:02:00] stages, because it certainly seemed like it had a lot more promise than the title that was canceled right before it. Jessika: Yes, the gameplay itself looked more interesting, it looks more complex, it easier to navigate. What they were showing us was really intense. Mike: I really liked that whole idea of being able to view the environments in two different eras. It reminded me a lot of another Eidos game called legacy of Cain soul river, where there was a spiritual world and then a physical world. And you could flip back and forth between them, which was kind of cool. Jessika: Oh, that’s neat Mike: Yeah. I dug that. I liked the idea of exploring the same environment in two different areas. I thought that was really neat. Jessika: Yeah. Mike: Let's move on to Comics. Jessika: Sounds great. Mike: Okay, so, I’m curious. When do you think that Highlander got big enough to get a comic book? Jessika: I don't know maybe late nineties Mike: 2006. Jessika: Wow [01:03:00] That's later than I had expected. Mike: Yeah. There wasn't a comic adaptation of the movie when it came out, which is weird, there wasn't one here in the States. Highlander Heart, in their YouTube podcast, noted there was a series of five newspaper comic strips that were published as part marketing promotion. The hosts weren't entirely certain if they're exclusive to Europe or not. I don't know. I haven't been able to really find much reference to it. After the movie came out, though there was a two-part comic adaptation in Argentina. It was published through El Tony Todo Color and El Tony Supercolor they were sibling comic anthology magazines, and here's the weird twist. It looks like this was an unlicensed adaptation. Jessika: Mmhm, interesting. Mike: So now we're going to take another side tangent. The important thing that you need to know is that Argentina had just come out of a brutal military dictatorship that came about as part of Operation Condor, which is this horrific program the United States was involved in. And it isn't really taught about in high school history, at least it [01:04:00] wasn't when I was going through high school and I went to a pretty good one. did you ever learn about that? I'm curious. Jessika: No, I did not. Mike: Okay I'm giving you an extremely TLDR read of this, but basically this was a program in the seventies and eighties when the US backed military dictatorships across South America. So our country helped these groups, kidnap, torture, rape murder, thousands of political opponents, like Argentina was especially brutal. There were literally death squads, hunting down political distance across the country. It was a really horrific time. I want you to read this summary of what was going on during that time, actually. Jessika: Give me the really fun stuff I see. Mike: Sorry. Jessika: No you're good. It is estimated that between - 9,000 and 30,000 that's a huge span. Mike: I know, it’s such a margin of error I don't understand. Jessika: Lack of record taking will get you there quick, I think. I'm going to start over, but we’ll leave that in. It is estimated that between [01:05:00] 9,000 and 30,000 people were killed or disappeared, many of whom were impossible to formally report due to the nature of state terrorism. The primary target, like in many other South American countries participating in Operation Condor, were communist guerrillas and sympathizers, but the target of Operation Condor also included students, militants trade, unionists, writers, journalists, I don't love this, artists, and any other citizens suspected of being left-wing activists - well take me the goddamn way away. Mike: Right. Jessika: Including Peronist guerillas. I don't love that. Mike: No it's really awful. And based on that list of targets, it's not surprising that there was a lot of media suppression during this time. Democracy returned to the country in ’83, and there was this explosion of art across the mediums. Argentine Comics [01:06:00] saw this Renaissance period. A lot of them though, weren't really licensed and let's be honest. It's not like there's an internet where IP owners could monitor stuff like this and shut it down when they learned about it. There was also this drastic comics increase in the area due to create or publishing Zines because the eighties was the decade where personal computers suddenly became commonplace and all of a sudden pe

We’ve all seen it — maybe some of us have even fallen for the trick — you’re on an ecommerce site and a big “Wheel of Savings” pops up. This innocent-seeming discount offer, though, isn’t what it seems, and it’s doing damage to the end-user spinning the wheel, and the site the wheel pops up on. The world of malvertising and browser extensions has been causing headaches in the ecommerce world for years and brands are constantly looking for ways to fight back and regain control of their websites. Matt Gillis is helping with that mission. Matt is the CEO of clean.io, which offers real-time protection against malicious actors and code for some of the most-trafficked websites in the world. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Matt takes us through some of the methods bad actors are using to install malicious code on ecommerce sites, and he gets into the nitty gritty of why browser extensions like Honey and Wikibuy are hurting brand bottom lines, and why those extensions are making marketing attribution nearly impossible. But he also offers some solutions, too, so that ecommerce brands can finally win back control of the user experience. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Good Guy or Bad Guy?: Traditionally, malvertising is done by bad actors who infiltrate websites and take over through ads. But in the world of ecommerce, the bad actors are actually manifesting in the form of Fortune 100 companies that profit from website extensions like Honey and Wikibuy, which disrupt the user experience of the customer on the original ecommerce site. Solving that problem is the challenge for ecommerce brands that want to take back control.Sneakily Effective: In the malvertising world, the bad actors are at the top of the marketing game. They can achieve a 100% click-through rate at little to no cost because they are using sly, untraceable strategies. Targeting and eliminating those malvertisers is critical in order to level the playing field for ecommerce marketers to have success moving forward.Last Line of Defense: Publishing platforms hold most of the responsibility for the end-user experience. Everybody has a role to play in minimizing the risk of malicious buyers or advertisers, but ultimately, the publisher is the last line of defense against malvertising moving into the user experience, and they should be held accountable.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone. And welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles co-founder at mission.org. Today on the show we have Matt Gillis, the CEO at clean.io. Matt, welcome.Matt:Stephanie, thanks for having me. I'm excited.Stephanie:I am very excited to have you here. We were just talking about how cool your background is, and I think that's actually kind of a fun place to start of where you're at in the world. And tell me a bit about your background.Matt:Yeah. Hey, so I'm in Baltimore and we actually just took possession of this office in February, right before the pandemic. And so the irony is I've been here every day since the pandemic started pretty much.Stephanie:By yourself?Matt:But I'm by myself. So we have 4,000 square feet. We just did the mural right before the pandemic and no one on our team has been able to experience it pretty much. But yeah, cybersecurity company located in Baltimore, we're about 45 people, I guess you could say solving this problem of untrusted and malicious JavaScript that is ruining user experiences in revenue across the internet. That's us in a nutshell.Stephanie:Cool. Well, I am really excited to dive further into clean.io. Before we do that though, I was hoping you can kind of go through your background because I saw you've worked at places like AOL, you've been in publishing. You've been in ad space. Tell me a bit about what you did before you came to clean.io.Matt:So full disclosure, I'm old. And so I've been around a little bit. I've had some fun. But yeah, I think key things I've spent probably the last 20-ish or so years in a couple of different capacities. Right out of university, I started in the mobile industry and mobile at that time was just making phone calls, that's it. There wasn't even texting then.Matt:In fact, my job back in those days was I would stand on a golf course at a golf tournament and let people make free phone calls because that was the cool thing to do then. No one had cell phones and if they did, they were like those brick ones. You remember those ones that you couldn't fit in your pocket?Stephanie:Yeah. And you were the cool guy like, "I've got access to an awesome phone, anyone want in?"Matt:Yeah. And listen, men and women would come up to me and they'd be like, "Can I call back and check and see if I have any messages?" And so that was the cool thing to do then. I know it sounds so crazy that was a thing at some point, but yeah. So I worked at mobile operators in the early stages of my career.Matt:So I worked at Bell Mobility in Toronto, Canada. I'm from Toronto. And then I moved down here to work at Verizon Wireless. And at the end of my tenure at Bell Mobility and my tenure at Verizon, I was focused on some of the services that you live by on your cell phone today. So this was in kind of late '99 and then the early 2000s of things like video on demand on your phone, playing games on your phone, downloading ringtones on your phone, I'm sure you did that.Stephanie:Oh, ringtones, yeah [inaudible].Matt:They were, obviously a huge business at some point.Stephanie:Now if my phone rings I'm like, "Stop it, what are you doing? Who's calling me? Don't call me, text me."Matt:Put it on mute. Yes, exactly. So I was kind of part of the foundational days of things that you would do with your phone, before the iPhone. And then I went and took a swing at being an entrepreneur and joined a little small video game company. Our biggest game was Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? We did a lot of TV game shows. So we did, Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader? And things like that.Matt:So I kind of walked the mile as a publisher for a while and then Capcom, which is the Japanese video game company acquired us. So I ran their publishing business for a few years and I got to experience what it's like to be a publisher and how hard it is to make money.Matt:And that was kind of in those early days of the iPhone where I'd say to people, "You'll go and spend $5 on this latte, but you won't pay $5 for unlimited use of a game over a period of time." And this is back in 2008, 2009. And so we had a real struggle and people weren't wanting to pay for our games. They want them free and free became kind of the thing on the iPhone.Matt:And so recognizing that struggle, I actually joined this company called Millennial Media, which was one of the earliest mobile ads platforms for app developers, helping app developers make money with ads. Some of our biggest customers at the time were like Words with Friends, if you've played Words with Friends-Stephanie:Yes, I have.Matt:... ads in every game. So we were kind of one of the foundational tech partners with folks like Words with Friends and various other games across the internet and apps. Did that for eight years through an acquisition with Verizon and AOL. And then we acquired Yahoo. So I ran the publisher platforms business at the combined entity of those companies, which was awesome.Matt:And one of the biggest problems in my time over that period was this thing called malicious ads, or malvertising as they call it. You probably are familiar with when you're scrolling away on your phone and all of a sudden it redirects you and says, congratulations, you won an Amazon gift card. And you're like, "I didn't click anything." Or spin the wheel for your chance.Stephanie:Yeah. I did that once I fell for it. I was like, "Oh, I spun it." I couldn't help it.Matt:Never spin the wheel, Stephanie.Stephanie:I only did it once, but yeah, afterwards I'm like, "That was a bad call. Why did I do that?"Matt:Yeah. So it was a big problem in my past life. And there were a few folks that were solving this problem and two of them were folks that I had worked with at AOL. When I left, it was called Oath at the time, which is Verizon Media now.Matt:I went and had lunch with these guys and they told me that they were spinning up this company called Clean Creative and set to solve this problem of malvertising. And I didn't have a job and it was getting too cold to golf. And so I said, "Hey guys, can I be an intern?"Matt:And so I came and hung around for a couple of days a week. And I was like, "You guys are really onto something here because this was a massive problem in my prior life." And so I said, "Hey, can I have the keys?" And they obliged. And that's how I'm here, started as the CEO two years ago. And we've kind of been blowing it up ever since. That's awesome.Stephanie:Yeah, such a fun story. So what is your day to day look like now? And what's your best day in the office look like while you're there by yourself? Are you around skipping around bicycling around the big office? What is your days look like?Matt:I do pace and I get my steps in over there. Day-to-day, we're startup, so we're small. And so as any of your listeners would know at a startup you do everything, and you take the trash out and you sign big contracts, hopefully you raise money. You kind of do run the gamut. So it's a little bit of everything. If you've worked at a startup you know that generally speaking, there's epic highs and epic lows. And so you have those days where you are the king of the world and you and your team are high-fiving and celebrating. And that's a little different now because you got to do it all virtually.Matt:Part of being at a startup is you get that culture of everybody generally speaking, being in an office like this, but we're a widely distributed culture now. We were before the pandemic where we kind of had, I don't know, five or six or seven locations among all of our people, but now we have 40 locations. So it's just like any other gig except there's really no net underneath you. You're walking this tightrope and hopefully you get to the other side.Stephanie:Yes. I definitely feel that.Matt:It's fun though. Isn't that why you do it?Stephanie:I mean, yeah, it's definitely really fun. Other times you're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm responsible for so many lives." And then other days it's like, "This is fun." So it's a good balance.Matt:Yeah. I mean, I won't lie. I had months of sleepless nights when we were raising money. We most recently raised our series A and we started raising it in March, right at the beginning of the pandemic. And yeah, all these people's jobs, for me, the pressure was on me to make sure that we could raise money and continue on this mission.Matt:The reality is, is the people behind the scenes are the ones that actually made my job easy because they're the ones that enabled me to go and tell the story of our massive revenue growth and our massive traction and our product market fit and all of that sort of stuff.Matt:Startups are hard, but there's a reason that many people once you leave the big company and you actually go and take your swing, that becomes the thing that you keep doing and doing and doing because you like having that euphoric feeling.Stephanie:Yeah. No, I definitely agree. And I mean, I think it's a good reminder too, as the CEO at any company to kind of get out of your way and hire a team that can support you and do things, but then let you do the higher level things like selling, raising money, such is a good point for, I think a lot of business owners who want to kind of stay attached to, "I've always been coding." Or, "I always did this part of the business." You need to step away and find people who can step in for you so you can go on to the next thing.Matt:Yeah, and focus on your strengths. Don't try and overcompensate and really... We did this thing called StrengthsFinder with our leadership team. And it was really about figuring out what are the strengths across this group of people that are practically leading the company. And you go, "Okay, well, I'm really good at this, this and this. And you're really good at this, this and this. Wow. We compliment each other. I should continue to keep doing this stuff. And boy, we should just let you handle all of this sort of stuff." So yeah, hire a diverse team and hire people that are way smarter than you and you'll be successful.Stephanie:So how have you seen the digital security landscape change? Maybe even over just the past year or two, what new things are popping up, what should e-commerce owners be aware of right now that maybe wasn't happening last year or two years ago?Matt:I would say that where we cut our teeth was in this malvertising space and what it is, is malicious JavaScript that's kind of being injected into the user experience through ads. And what we've seen is that the bad actors, the people that are doing it, are getting even more sophisticated over time. They have figured out how to get around the systems. They've figured out how to get around the checks and balances.Matt:And we kind of stumbled into this e-commerce world where we were protecting, we're protecting some of the biggest websites on the internet. There's seven million websites that run our code. Probably many of the websites that you go to everyday either to get your news or to read entertainment gossip, or that sort of stuff if you do.Stephanie:No.Matt:I'm not saying you do Stephanie, but we protect all of those sites; every single page view on those pages, we make sure that the user experience is protected and revenue's protected. And by the way, in that world, it's folks that I would say, delivering malicious JavaScript. What we started seeing in the e-commerce world is there's this whole phenomenon of what I would call untrusted JavaScript.Matt:Now in either case, the premise is you own your website. You should be able to control everything that executes on your website. You should be able to protect your user experience. You should be able to dictate your user experience because it's your website. On the malvertising world, what we saw happening was if folks had ads on their website, they had lost control of the user experience. They had lost control of revenue because any bad actor could just buy an ad and take over the user experience and get you to spin the wheel.Stephanie:Only once, but yes.Matt:Only once, but it happened. And so in the e-commerce world, what we've noticed is there's a lot of stuff happening on e-commerce sites, just like there is in any website that is without the permission or without the authorization of the person who owns the site. The biggest problem that we kind of dug in and gone to solve for is, if you ever heard of these things called Honey or Wikibuy?Stephanie:Yeah.Matt:So these are Chrome extension, Safari extensions, Firefox extensions. They sit resident on the user's device and Stephanie, when you're out shopping on your computer and you get to check out, Honey will pop up and say, "Hey, I've got coupons for you. Do you want them?" You as the user you're probably like, "Yeah, I'd love to get a discount. I'd love a better price, if I can get it without having to do any work." Honey does all the hard work for you.Matt:We think that's not really in the best interest of the merchants because they own their website and now someone is injecting code in and disrupting the user experience, disrupting your revenue. So just like it is in this malvertising world, the same phenomenon is happening over here. The difference is Honey is owned by PayPal. Wikibuy is owned by Capital One.Matt:So the folks that I would call "bad actors" in this world are actually fortune 100 companies. They're folks that you would expect to be able to trust. And what they're doing is they're actually injecting code in to disrupt the user experience and disrupt revenue. And so that's the problem that we've gone out and solved.Matt:We just launched our product that's called cleanCART. And what it is is it's a Shopify app and it gives Shopify merchants the ability to protect their carts at checkout and make sure that they can prevent this sort of code from disrupting user experiences in revenue. So it really is giving control of the websites back to the merchants.Stephanie:Oh, interesting. So when you implement that you just can't get coupons or are there other pieces that it kind of protects as well, or the user can't see coupons from a Honey or something, or are there other things that your app is also protecting against?Matt:So we're in, I would say the second inning of the baseball game. So early stages. We're really focused on to start is blocking the automation of these coupons. So we don't want to block you as a user going in and manually inserting the coupon. We think that's the intended use case. But what we think is unfair is that someone is standing beside you at checkout and handing you a mitt full of coupons and actually not even handing them to you, they're actually giving them and just scanning them all to make sure that they all have a chance to work.Matt:If you think about this analogy, the grocery store would never let someone come and stand beside the checkout and save you 30% off your grocery order while you're already ready to pay. And I think that's the phenomenon that we're trying to solve for in the earliest days, which is, let's prevent the automation from happening. Let's not prevent people from manually inserting coupons. Let's give control back to the merchants because it impacts them in so many different ways. Obviously, it impacts them from a revenue loss perspective.Matt:I talk to merchants every day. Many merchants are complaining that these injections are literally scraping and pulling 30% off of their cart value at checkout. So someone who had $100 cart, they go to checkout, Honey runs and it knocks their cart value from $100 to $70. That's kind of bad for the merchant, especially if that person was going to convert anyway.Matt:The other key thing is Honey and Wikibuy and these other discount extensions have made it really hard for merchants to have discounting strategies that they can track. And so what's happening is that promo codes are ending up in the wrong hands. It's creating an attribution nightmare for merchants where they think that this social media influencer or this Instagrammer, or this YouTuber is driving tons of sales and lo and behold, Honey has grabbed that coupon and is injecting it.Matt:And now every order that comes through where Honey was present on the page is applying that person's code. And so now the merchant not only has bad data that is going to ultimately drive their marketing decisions but now, they're also losing revenue and they're paying out affiliate fees to folks that generally didn't deserve that affiliate fee. So I think it's created a bit of a nightmare.Matt:And so, we felt this kind of pent up demand for this product. And that's exactly what's happened is that no one has solved it. We think we're first to market. And we think it's important that people are fighting for the merchants. There's been 10 years of growth in e-commerce over the last year. The pandemic driving a lot of that.Matt:And we think it's important that merchants really get control of their websites, get control of their margins, get control of their revenue and really get the right data to make the right data-based decisions of how they're going to run their marketing programs.Stephanie:Yes. I think that's a really cool story. You were just talking about how you were looking at a problem that people were complaining about, and then now you guys are like, "Well, let's solve it." Because I've read, I'm trying to think where this was, where they're talking about going to Reddit and looking at some of the threads of people talking about problems that keep occurring and occurring and how you could build businesses just based off Reddit threads. And you guys did that, just looking at problems with what merchants were struggling with. So a really cool example of how to build a business is look at all the problems that are going on and jump at solving it.Matt:Well, and I think the other key thing here is as you know is solving the problem, but also during that process of your hypothesis that you're going to develop of what you're trying to prove, it's you also need to prove that people pay for it. And that's, I think part of the foundation of what we've built here, obviously on the malvertising side, but also on the e-commerce side is it's a big enough problem. People need to protect user experiences.Matt:If you think about just in the internet in general, it's very expensive to create content. It's very expensive to drive traffic. And once you've done those two things, why would you leave it to chance that someone might come to your website and have a crappy user experience? Protect your user experience.Matt:It happened last week on the Harvard Crimson on the crimson.com where somebody was on Crimson and they got one of these redirect ads that took them to this landing page that said, "Hey, you're a Verizon customer click here and take the survey and answer these nine questions and you'll have a chance to win." And this user actually took to Twitter and said, "Hey @thecrimson, which is, I think their Twitter handle, you've got a crappy user experience. Why are you letting this happen?"Matt:I never even saw a reply from the Crimson. But when we did some investigation on what was going on, they don't even have protection on their website. So it almost feels irresponsible at this day and age to not be protecting your asset because your asset generally speaking, isn't your website, your asset is your users.Matt:And so protect your users, make them feel confident that when they come to your site, they're going to have a great experience. And so that's really what we've focused on is just delivering technology that solves a problem that people are willing to pay for. Because obviously without that, we don't have a business.Stephanie:So when thinking about like the Crimson example, that's all from a bad ad being run on their website, correct?Matt:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Stephanie:Someone was able to buy that ad unit have bad JavaScript, and then that's when they were sent to that Verizon survey. I'm I thinking about that, right?Matt:You're totally thinking about that right. And what's interesting about the thread is that when this woman went on to Twitter and said, "Hey, this is what happened. And here's a screenshot," there were a whole bunch of people that piled onto the thread of like, "Oh, here's what I think is happening." "Oh, you have a virus on your computer." Or, "Oh, you have a bad extension on your computer or whatever." Everybody had a hypothesis of what's happening.Matt:And so we actually went and captured the threat and reverse engineered it and said like, "Here's exactly what's happening." And yeah, it's all coming through ads in that case. And there's so many great things of the open programmatic ecosystem.Matt:So programmatic media being able to buy a single oppression at a time by single user real humans, real devices, real networks, like you know I'm having a one-to-one engagement with this person and in the malvertising world, that's a feeding ground for bad actors because they get to do the same thing.Matt:And quite frankly, they're better at it than any other advertiser out there because they're the ones who know how to pay 20 cents CPM and buy an ad and actually get 100% click-through as opposed to the rest of the world that's just hoping that they get a half a percent click-through rate. And so they figured out how to buy that ad, that ad renders on your device.Matt:And then usually it's like an onTouchEvent. So when you actually just touch the device, they put a transparent overlay on your device. And that turns into a click or they'll auto click something on your behalf, or however they decide to inject their technology. But yeah, it's as simple as that. And I think it's lucrative, otherwise-Stephanie:They wouldn't be doing it, yeah.Matt:What they do is they try to do it at the lowest possible level without getting caught. So if you think about sophisticated marketers, what do you do? Well, you pick the right users, you maybe frequency caps so that you don't lambaste them with ads. You want to hit them at the right time with the right message and all that sort of stuff.Matt:And so these bad actors have figured out how to very elegantly and in a sophisticated fashion, they'll hit you with that ad. But the reality is they'll probably frequency cap you to one so you can't reproduce the experience and that's how they evade getting caught in most cases.Stephanie:Yeah. Very interesting. I didn't understand the whole backend of how that works. I mean, I do spend a lot of time thinking about building incentives for advertisers because we build up our own ad networks to advertise our podcast and we bring on partners all the time.Stephanie:And it's really funny thinking through how to build incentives for especially newer advertisers when you might say something like, "Oh, we'll incentivize you based on a download." Then all of a sudden you're getting all these fake downloads. No, not downloads. We'll incentivize you based on consumption. Like, does someone listen to the episode? They wanted to hear it.Stephanie:And then you see instead of actually having good people come through and consume the episode, the advertiser will say, "Okay, I'll pay you to review the ad or review the podcast, which makes it show that you were consuming it because you had to for maybe a minute to then be able to review."Stephanie:And it's always interesting trying to figure out, I mean, and these people are not good actors maybe, I'm not really sure. But it's always very interesting thinking, how do you incentivize people to do the right thing and actually deliver and not try and always get around the rules and just meet a number which I'm sure a lot of the platforms deal with the same kind of thing, but-Matt:It's interesting you use the word incentivized, and that was a dirty word in the early days where most advertisers didn't feel that the word incentivize was a good user because they didn't truly have the intent to do the thing that you want because they were being paid or a bounty or whatever the thing is.Matt:I saw the evolution of incentivized in my mobile career where it became really hard to get people to consume video commercials, like 15, six second whatever that metric was. And in the games world, they figured out this thing and they actually rebranded it instead of calling it incentivized video, they actually called it rewarded video. And-Stephanie:I feel like that's a little more, I don't know.Matt:Well, listen, and so I talk about one of the apps that I love is this app called Candy Crush. And I've been playing candy crush for almost 10 years now, I think. And when's the last time you played the same game for 10 years? Like never?Stephanie:Yeah. That's impressive.Matt:But they've artfully integrated video into their app. And I think if you run out of lives, you can watch a 30 second spot that is unskippable. So you have to watch the whole thing. And then if you, do you get rewarded with that extra life or whatever it is, maybe a lollypop, I don't know. But yeah, so I think there's different ways to approach it. But you're right, usually when you figure out the bounty, everyone else figures out how to capitalize on the bounty.Matt:And I think the interesting thing with Honey and Wikibuy is they've figured out how to get paid for the bounty or get credit for the bounty when lo and behold, they didn't really do anything. All they did was they had code that was resident on the machine that allows them to kind of get credit for that user purchasing when I think it's questionable whether they had any influence on that.Stephanie:Yeah. I've kind of thought that too, when seeing different Instagrammers with their promo codes for e-commerce site. And I always thought like, "Oh, how does that attribution work?" Because I mean, she's sharing it here, but I'm sure it's very easy for someone who doesn't follow her to also find that code outside of a Honey, but just be like, send it to my friend, "Hey, use this code." They never even followed her and now, they've got 25% off or something. So it does seem like attribution can be tricky, even if someone's not using Honey. How do you think that world's changing right now to make it easier for merchants to track where their sales are actually coming from? It feels very messy.Matt:Oh, I agree. I think it's a total mess. That's why we focused on the automation because I think that's one of those low hanging fruit, but big problems. Honey will tell the world that they have 17 million or so users. I don't know if Wikibuy which is now called Capital One Shopping, I don't think they announced how many users they have. But what I can tell you is both of those companies are spending a tremendous amount of money acquiring new users.Matt:Every time I log into Twitter, usually the first ad that I get is from Honey. All throughout the Christmas season, the holiday season just recently Capital One which owns Wikibuy Capital One Shopping, they were running TV commercials for this product with Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta. So there's like a tremendous push for them to grow these user bases.Matt:In talking with merchants and we've got, I don't know, we've got maybe 25 merchants using our product right now. And we're in closed beta. That problem that you just mentioned, which is, "Hey, I worked with an Instagrammer and I gave them a code. And all of a sudden two days later, I've had a vitamin company tell me that story. I've had a sporting goods company tell me that story. I've had a toilet paper company tell me that story.Stephanie:They're using Instagrammers?Matt:They're using Instagrammers. They're using YouTubers. They're actually using podcasts as well.Stephanie:I mean, interesting to see how they're partnering on toilet paper.Matt:Because they're partnering for the audience on these podcasts and they're hoping that they can get that audience to find out about their product and again, then they're incentivizing them to come and become a customer. It's basically the same net story. The vitamin company told me they're like a supplement company. They partnered with one of the biggest triathletes in the world.Matt:Let's just say they had 50,000 or 100,000 followers, but you've got to imagine they're probably rabid followers. If you're into that, then that's probably the gold standard of who you would listen to. And that person did some blog posts and did some Instagram posts and posted their code and as soon as it happened, they saw a surge in sales attributed to that person.Matt:Now, the marketing person at the company was like, "Oh my gosh, we figured it out. We nailed this. We knew that people would be rabid about that person's content. We knew that person had so much influence to get people to come and buy." And then they're like, "Oh my God, it's Honey." Because literally they went from zero sales to 80% of their sales that had coupons was that person on Monday.Matt:I think it's a frustrating problem. And I think the sophisticated marketers have woken up and are like, "Man, we're bleeding money." One merchant told me that when they started kind of parsing out the attribution that Honey was costing them. They did about a million and a half in revenue online per month, so call it a $15 million business give or take. They believed that these promo code extensions were costing them about 150 grand a month, 10% their overall value.Stephanie:I mean, we just had a guest who they ranted about their hatred of Honey, I mean, even on the show. So I think it's maybe a couple episodes before maybe when yours is going to go out.Matt:Call me. We can help.Stephanie:Yeah, I'll send the link so you can hit him up.Matt:Absolutely.Stephanie:He was not a happy dude about Honey. But I guess when I think about promo codes, it kind of feels archaic to me. Maybe this is just a me thing, but it feels like where QR codes were where all of a sudden they're gone and you don't even think about them anymore. Promo codes kind of feel like that to me too of just, it feels like a manual old way of attributing things.Stephanie:How do you think about attribution when it comes to influencers and stuff or anyone, without having to use a code? Are you guys even thinking about a new way of doing things or do you hear of people trying new ways of attribution that isn't like I'm putting in a manual like Stephanie 20, to get my 20% off? Is there a new way of doing it?Matt:I mean, we're thinking through all those things. I think the challenge is specifically if you're using these one-to-many mediums. In a perfect world, I think you'd have a unique code for every user and so you'd have to authenticate. We'd know that that code went to you Stephanie and if you redeemed it, I would know that you actually bought something and you bought something because of this engagement that we had. I think in these one-to-many mediums it's, how else can you do it? And some of the challenges that the one-to-many mediums like think of YouTubers.Matt:One of the companies that we're working with has a problem where they have a very high dollar ticket item. Their item that they're selling is about 1,000 bucks. And obviously, if somebody grabs a code of 20% off that you're losing 200 bucks, it's a lot of money. Their problem was that they were doing YouTuber videos and they were publishing a code within the YouTube video to reach the audience. And for them, it was extreme sports, the audience that they were going after.Matt:Well, literally the next day, and I don't know if you know how Honey works. If you have a Honey on your machine, the very first thing that Honey does is it scrapes out anybody who manually puts a code in. So in order for Honey to be able to grab that code, it has to happen once where a real person saw the code and was motivated to go and type it in and buy.Matt:If that happened to me, if I got that code, I would go in and type it in. And if Honey were on my machine and then I hit okay, Honey will scrape that code out and now everybody who comes after me gets access to that code whether they saw that YouTube video or not.Matt:The problem for this company is spending a lot of money engaging with YouTubers and creating videos and obviously, doing the presentation layer of these offers. Well, once Honey gets a hold of the code... And what they've also found is that Honey and the other extensions, are not very merchant friendly. The relationship between Honey and these merchants is actually quite adversarial. And so it leaves them with no other option.Matt:I guess the two options: one, you just keep running your YouTube thing and you resign yourself that you're going to be paying out a 20% discount to everybody who comes and has Honey; which that stinks, that doesn't feel right or you need to reach out to the YouTuber. You need to recut the video. You need to recut the voiceover. You need to kill that code. You need to put a new code in. And so it's made this sort of marketing endeavor with YouTubers and Instagrammers and you name it very hard, because you're actually turning off codes.Matt:We saw one email which was interesting. I always say to people, let's remember we're all consumers too, you and I buy stuff on the internet, even though we're deeply entrenched in the businesses that we're running. I have Honey on my machine, so I can understand what that user behavior is, so that I can actually talk with merchants.Matt:One of the folks on our team bought a pair of shorts from one of these companies that advertises on Facebook and Instagram. And they were out of stock after he had ordered it, so they sent him an email. And they said, "Hey, listen, sorry you didn't have it but guess what, here's a code. You'll save X percent. But please, make sure you use it within the next 48 hours because Honey has been grabbing our codes and we're going to shut this code off."Matt:How can people market, if you constantly have to play whack-a-mole. And if you now think of the analogy, it's back to what we do in the malvertising side. If you aren't going to solve things with software, you're basically playing this long cat and mouse game that you won't win.Stephanie:I mean, that's why I think about merchants turning on and off codes.Matt:It's a nightmare.Stephanie:We were handing out swag and me just trying to... I had unique links that could work for more than one person and just thinking, "That could be tricky and go really bad." But I guess that's why I just think codes just feel, like I said, a little bit archaic. Why can't I just go to a YouTube video?Stephanie:I mean, the internet knows so much about me and where I'm at anyways. It should say, "Hey, Stephanie watched Matt's video where he was talking about this toilet paper." And then all of a sudden she's at our website, you can say, "Stephanie, a 20% coupon awaits you when you go here."Stephanie:And then when I get there it should know who I am and then be like, "Your coupons applied. And it will be applied for the next three days on this website or whatever, because I know where you've been and what you saw and where exactly you came from." Why can't it just work?Matt:I mean, I wish it was all that simple. Listen, we are taking obviously, technology solution to what we think is a longstanding and challenging problem. And in the malvertising world, the people in ad operations were literally playing whack-a-mole. Like, "Let's figure out where this bad ad came from." "Turn that demand source off." Or, "Turn that buyer off." And guess what, the bad actors, they just pop up again.Matt:And so we believe that, and I've seen and talked to merchants who are like, "Listen, here's how I solved the Honey problem." And they're like, "We actually created promo codes for 10% off, but the promo code was Honey is stealing your data."Matt:Because if you use Honey, you know that when Honey pops up it'll actually tell you the codes that it's implementing. They went on a mission to discredit and put the fear of God in their buyers that Honey was doing... They were like, "Honey is doing nefarious things with your data." And guess what, Honey D listed them as [inaudible].Stephanie:Well, there you go. Now, you know how to do it, I guess.Matt:The irony is, is that was three months ago that I talked to that merchant. And yesterday they cameback in and said, "Listen, we have a problem again."Stephanie:Honey added us again.Matt:No, this time they've got a Wikibuy problem. The problem is going to be never-ending, I think. Ultimately, we're hopefully going to give e-commerce companies the tools that they need to go out and be able to operate their business and focus their time on the things that really matter, in my mind, which is driving incremental revenue; not playing whack-a-mole with your promo codes and having to go recut YouTube videos. Hopefully, that's one of the big things that we help solve for.Stephanie:That's cool. I mean, I do like the idea of that one merchant you were mentioning where they said, "If you act within the next 48 hours or whatever, it'll only lasts this long." And I just had a guest yesterday who said that. I think it was either Burger King or McDonald's made it so if you're within 20 feet or something of a McDonald's they would send you a code and say, "You have five minutes to get to a burger King to get a free burger or something."Stephanie:And I'm like, "That's interesting." That's a good way to make people act quickly if you know something's expiring, I know I act a lot quicker. But I mean, of course, solve the problem that's number one. But I do think that's an interesting marketing tactic too.Matt:And make it measurable. I think that's the key thing is that... I often say, "What gets measured gets managed." And so hopefully, what we're doing is we're taking one of the things out of the equation that is making measurement really challenging for merchants. Again, using the triathlete example, yes, the marketer was high-fiving the rest of their team going, "We finally solved this." And then when they actually looked at the data they were like, "Damn it. I guess we got to go back to the drawing board."Stephanie:It's also just so tricky too, knowing how much of those people would have bought otherwise or not. So even looking and being like, wow, we have all this attributed to this one promo code and maybe it was because of Honey. But how many of those people would have bought if there wasn't some promo in there? It's just hard to know.Matt:We're solving that problem. We're giving merchants some deep analytics on exactly what's happening on their site, because we think there's a blind spot there where they don't know. For instance, how many users actually came to your site that actually had an injection capability? One of the extensions of Honey, Wikibuy, Piggy, Amazon Assistant, you name it. So we give them that lens.Matt:And then we give them the lens of, what were all the promo codes that they tried to inject? What was the most popular promo code? And stack rank those things and then going deeper down to conversion rate. And guess what, what we're seeing in these early days is that when you block Honey and Wikibuy at checkout, the vast majority of users actually still convert.Matt:And so that to me is the icing on the cake which is, guess what, you take control back of your website. You take control of your margins. You take control of your revenue. You now have the data you need to be able to go out and drive incremental sales. We think that's pretty powerful.Stephanie:I mean, that makes sense. I've heard a couple of times that also, discounts don't matter as much as you would think. I think they were talking about, they did a study between 10% off and 20% off. And actually, they were kind of the same when it came to consumer happiness. And what can be worse though, is if someone has the ability to go in and put a promo code in or something and then it doesn't work.Stephanie:I don't know if you remember those days of just going to the internet promo code for macys.com and trying out 10 different promo codes and all of them failing. I was way more unhappy then, than just not having one at all, just buying at full value.Matt:Let me tell you the opposite of that which is the worst-case scenario, in one of our merchants experience and that's why they're using our software. They're in the home interior space, so they do drapes and carpets and wallpaper and all that sort of stuff. And they were trying to build favor with interior designers because they wanted interior designers to know their site and know their stuff and all that sort of stuff. And so they did a very exclusive but unfortunately, a promo code that Honey got ahold of that gave interior designers 50% off.Matt:Well, lo and behold, as soon as one designer used that code and also had Honey on the machine, that code then got swept up in the Honey and everybody, every order that had Honey was now getting 50% off. Their customer service nightmare was that they couldn't afford to give every consumer 50% off, so they actually had to cancel orders; believe it or not.Matt:They called customers and said, "We can't honor your order with that coupon because that coupon was not intended for you." Created a customer service nightmare for them. And that's what they want to do is, they want to control their user experience. They want to control their revenue and their margins.Stephanie:Oh my gosh, that's horrible.Matt:Out of control. But think of that disaster of having to call someone and say, "Hey, I know you wanted to spend $500 with me, but only pay me 250 bucks. I can't give you 50 off but I can give you like 15 off, that's kind of what you were probably entitled to." So anyways, just trying to get control back in these merchants hands and let them control their destiny.Stephanie:I love that. When thinking about back to the now advertising piece, how much do you think it's on the publishing platforms? Is it their responsibility to make sure that they continue to increase their efforts to make sure bad actors aren't out there anymore?Stephanie:I mean, I know they're probably doing a lot. A lot of people like to hate on the publishing platforms and they want them to always do more and more and more. Is it maybe on them or maybe not on them anymore to continue to try and track those bad actors, who like you said are kind of popping up here and then they shut down and then open up a new account and do one off things and then shut down again. How should we think about leaning on the platforms like that?Matt:Well, I say to folks, the value chain in that industry is actually quite wide. And so from the bad actor who's putting their hands on the keyboards to the consumer, there's a whole bunch of players in the middle. I think it's on everybody to really have defenses in place and to make sure that they're protecting...Matt:So if you're at the front end, if you own the demand side platform that the bad actor's using, you need to have your own checks and balances to make sure that you're not bringing in malicious buyers. But all through that value chain, the onus is on everybody. But at the end of the day what I say is, the only person that can be responsible to that end user, is the publisher.Matt:Pick your publisher, if you are Fox News or you're the New York Post or you're the Washington Post, you're the one that has that ultimate relationship with Jenny or Johnny consumer who is surfing your site and consuming content. So you're the last line of defense. You're the one that created the site. You're the one that drove the traffic. You're the one that is using ads to monetize your traffic. It's really on you I think, ultimately.Matt:Now the publishers, all those folks that I named and there's millions of them, they all want to look upstream and they should. And they should hold everybody accountable upstream. But I think they're the ones that are really the that last line of defense.Matt:Because if you go to one of these sites and you have a crappy experience, you don't really care that it came through an ad. Like the woman at Harvard Crimson last week, she didn't know the origins of why it happened. And here's the other crazy thing, she knew that when she went to the Crimson, she was delivered a crappy experience.Matt:Now, the crazy part. First time we've ever done it, we actually did a private webinar with the end user because we wanted to explain to her here's exactly what's happening. She told us this story, she said, "Listen, I use ad block." And obviously, the risk to publishers are, if you don't create great experiences, your users are going to start using ad block.Matt:What she said was, in the desire to get real news and in the desire to really understand what's going on in the world and in the desire to actually make sure that real news publishers are actually getting compensated, she turned her ad block off and this is what happened.Matt:So shame on the Crimson for not delivering a great experience, because guess what? Now that user's like, "I'm not turning ad block off the next time I come to your site. You're not going to get paid for the traffic that I'm going to generate." So again, it really goes back to the publishers, the onus is on them.Stephanie:And thankfully, I think there is like new technologies popping up that maybe we'll be able to enable them or even just thinking about implementing. I mean, I've seen some advertisers looking into blockchain and having that as being kind of like a more source of truth to be able to know a one-to-one relationship and knowing who's behind... You don't know exactly who's behind what, but if you have it in a way where they sign up and they can't just start creating a million different accounts because they've got their one single one that they can go off of, it seems like there's a lot of ways that it can improve over the next couple of years that maybe hasn't been so easy the past decade or so.Matt:I agree. Obviously, there's industry bodies all trying to figure this out together. There's companies like us who are innovating and coming up with new and unique techniques to block these sorts of nefarious actors. I do think the biggest and most important thing is to recognize that the bad actors aren't just sitting still waiting for somebody to solve this problem. They're innovating honestly, a more rapid rate than many of the industry leaders that you would expect that have hundreds or thousands of people trying to solve this problem. Bad actors unfortunately, are innovating at quite a rapid pace.Matt:So the problem I think is going to evolve and change. We've seen it evolve to not just being ads but obviously, compromised Chrome extensions that just seems to be a great vector. And so I think you're going to see the problem move around and especially, if there's a lot of money in it. If there's ways for these guys to make money, you're going to see them salivate with... You're going to put up this defense and they're going to figure out this way to get around it.Matt:And there's so many different browser types. There's so many different machines. There's security flaws. There's zero-day. There's so many ways for these guys to actually buy and target, to only focus on iOS 13 and below and blah, blah, blah to reach their audience.Stephanie:So tricky. Hopefully, it'll get solved over the next decade. Cool. Well, with a couple minutes left, let's move over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Matt?Matt:I am ready.Stephanie:All right. First the harder one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?Matt:Listen, I think it's been the gold rush for e-commerce merchants over the last year. In many cases I talk to merchants, they're like, "It was raining money last year." Sales were up five X, 10 X, who knows. I think the next year is going to be that year where folks actually look to efficiency, and they look to figure out where there are holes in the boat that they haven't had to look before.Matt:And I think that plays to our product because I think in many cases when it's raining money, you almost turn a blind eye to some of these sorts of things. But I think now folks are like, "Listen, if I can be more efficient. If I can take control of my revenue and my margins, I'm going to do that."Matt:So I think that's probably, this is the year of people now are catching their breath and they've figured out their distribution and they've figured out their fulfillment and their warehousing and all that sort of stuff and the panic that they had to do to keep up with the pandemic growth. Now, I think it's a deep breath of like, "Okay. Now, let's look at the math."Stephanie:Yeah. I agree, that's a good one. What one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Matt:What one thing do I not understand. I think the affiliate landscape is complex. I think there are a lot of legacy ways in which people have calculated incrementality and I'm not sure if they're all believable. And I hear a lot of feedback from merchants where it's kind of like they just brush it under the rug and they're like, "I know I'm probably paying for stuff that I didn't really get, but let's just let it go." I think every percentage point matters. That ecosystem, because I hear there's good guys and there's bad guys and I'd love to really dig deeper on that. And I think that's a big opportunity for us as a company.Stephanie:That's a good one. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Matt:Wow. The nicest thing that anyone's ever done for me.Stephanie:I like to go deep.Matt:Yeah. That's a deep question. I think I've been fortunate throughout my whole career in that, I have been given opportunities that I probably wasn't ready for. And by the way, I had never been a CEO before I was at this company. And so, who knew that I'd be able to do it.Matt:But I think it actually starts way back to when I first graduated and I was seeking my first job. And I had a mentor that took a risk on me and gave me my shot. And I worked my butt off and hopefully that translated and he and she felt great about what I was doing. So I think the nicest thing, I've just been given opportunities that I don't think I deserved and hopefully I earned that respect and trust over time.Stephanie:That's a good answer. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Matt:Wow. This lightning round is hard.Stephanie:Good. Needs to be.Matt:If I were to have a podcast. I love gadgets. I'm one of those guys that buys the infomercial type stuff. I bought one of those Rotisserie Showtime girls 20 years ago, I still use it.Stephanie:Worth it.Matt:Maybe it could be interviewing people who've built made for TV products and really understanding the backstories behind how they came up with the idea and how successful they were and God knows how much money we all made them.Stephanie:That's good. We had Kevin Harrington on the show, he was the original OG shark in Shark Tank. He basically made the infomercial. And it was very interesting hearing his perspective of how it started, where it's at now and Shark Tank.Matt:I'm fascinated by that ecosystem, it's super cool. And by the way, I always do buy one of those stupid things for my wife for Christmas and she hates me for doing it because she's like, "You're just burning money."Stephanie:I had fun buying it and watching the infomercial today.Matt:Believe it or not, one of my coworkers gave me a Squatty Potty for Christmas.Stephanie:I actually feel like those have good value though, the science is there. It's just a weird thing to buy your wife, if you got that for her. Someone gave it to you, got it.Matt:I was given it, by one of my coworkers, "By the way it works."Stephanie:And their marketing, I think that's the Harmon Brothers who did their marketing with the whole unicorn and they did the Poo-Pourri thing.Matt:Oh yeah, it's super cool. I love those kind of gadgets.Stephanie:That's a good one. I would listen to that show. All right. And then the last one, what's up next on your Netflix queue?Matt:Well, on my Netflix queue, I think I've got three episodes left on the Queen's Gambit.Stephanie:Love that show. That was a good one.Matt:I'm a documentary guy. I actually will tell you that I've been kind of hooked on HBO Max for a little bit. And I just finished the Tiger Woods documentary last night, which was fascinating. Nothing that you hadn't been told before. This guy through adversity has come back multiple times; knee surgeries, winning on a broken leg. So I'm into those sorts of stories. One of my guilty pleasures is The Bachelor, so it's on my DVR. I'm playing catch up on that.Stephanie:That's great.Matt:I love reality TV and that sort of stuff.Stephanie:I like where your head's at, me too. Well, Matt, this has been a very fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and clean.io?Matt:So you can find me at matt@clean.io. So if you want to send me an email, obviously happy to help you guys in any of your challenges and would love to hear your challenges if they're similar or if they're different than ones that we're solving for. Hit me on LinkedIn, so you can find me there. And our company website is clean.io.Stephanie:Awesome. Thanks so much for joining us.Matt:Thanks Stephanie. Thanks for having me.

Matt Lipstein lives in Austin, Texas. He hosts a weekly radio show on KOOP-FM called Free Samples and he makes ambient music under the name, The Moss End. To offer your own advice, call Zak @ 844-935-BEST TRANSCRIPT: ZAK: 10 years ago, Matt was living in Brooklyn. It was a cold, January morning after a snowstorm. MATT: And I was heading out to our car which was parked on the street as you do and when I went up to the car, I noticed something was amiss and I went to turn the car on and all the lights came up on the dashboard when I did that. Like I've never seen that before. And, uh, I went outside and I brushed some of the snow off the side of the car and I realized that my car had been hit by something and then as I look up and down the rest of cars that were parked on that side of the street, all the cars were hit by something and I thought that because it was a snowstorm, it was likely a snowplow that had come and just nailed an entire side of the street just kind of scratching up all the sides of the cars and knocking off side-view mirrors and all that. ZAK: It's a great way to start your day. MATT: It was a rough one. ZAK: So Matt calls his insurance company and they tell him, they'll pay for the damage but not the one-thousand dollar deductible. MATT: And I felt this since a city of New York snowplow had hit my car and so many others that it was worth calling the city of New York to find out if they would pay for my thousand dollar deductible and what unfolded was a year and a half process of trying to get the right person on the phone to understand what happened and why it seemed reasonable to ask the city of New York to pay for that thousand dollar deductible. ZAK: How many phone calls do you think you made over the course of that year and a half. MATT: I would have to guess I made at least 20-25 phone calls. ZAK: And your final call, who was that to and what were they able to do for you? MATT: So, I somehow made my way to...I believe the person's title is comptroller. In about 2-minutes, he was like, yeah, of course we should pay that. And then just in an instant the skies opened and he made it happen and within a few weeks after that I got a check for a thousand dollars from the city of New York. ZAK: Wow. Ok, so...the advice that comes out of this crazy 18-month journey is what? MATT: Always get the right person on the phone. Make sure that they understand your problem or your request and then try to gauge if they have the knowledge or the access to help you. And if they don't, you can go one of two ways...you can either politely disconnect from that call and try again or you can ask to escalate to get to the right person. But either way, use your sense and see if that person is the right person on the phone and usually you know whether they are or are not. ZAK: Right. And I feel like to actually do this takes a combination of skills, patience, resilience, persistence...You have to be willing to say to someone like, 'you are not helping me' which I think for some people can be challenging cause you don't want to, if you're a people pleaser like me, you don't want to hurt their feelings. It seems to me that you need to either be that type of person or practice to get this right. MATT: I think practice sounds right. I mean, something that i've said to people a lot on the phone is, 'don't take this personally. I know that you're trying to help me but I'm not getting the results that I need. Can I speak with your manager or supervisor." Or, I'm going to disconnect and see if I can get someone else on the phone. ZAK: Now that is some hard-won wisdom. Matt got in touch with me through the advice hotline. I would love for you to do the same thing. If you have some advice, give me a call at 844-935-BEST. And if you're enjoying this show, please consider leaving a rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks so much in advance for doing that. I'll talk to you soon.

In Episode 42 Dr. Allison is joined by special guest Dr. Matt So owner of Edmonds Family Chiropractic. Join us as they discuss the benefits of Chiropractic Care and where Dr. Matt got his passion for helping others especially families. Edmonds Family Chiropractic is located here in beautiful Edmonds, WA and treats a variety of ailments in people of all ages. For More Information Head To @edmondsfamchiropractic#chiropractic #chiro #chiropraticcare #edmondsmomsroom #efc #newepisode #newpodcast #edmonds #downtownedmonds #local #health #wellness #holistichealthcare #pregnancy #postpartum

Sometimes an opportunity comes along that’s too good to pass up. For Matt Hulett, that happened when a friend approached him about a job at Rosetta Stone. The famous language-learning company was stuck in the analog world and they wanted Matt to be the guy to bring them into the digital future. It was no small feat, but Rosetta Stone has made progress on the digital transformation and Ecommerce journey, including introducing a subscription model and overhauling its tech stack and app. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Matt discusses the challenges of transforming a world-famous brand, including how he chose a free-trial subscription model over going freemium, what it was like to achieve buy-in from investors, and the future of Ecommerce and why he thinks social selling still hasn’t reached its full potential.   3 Takeaways: Even the most well-known brands need to earn their stripes when entering a new space. When a previously offline product starts playing in the digital world, it has to prove to customers that their investment in this new space is worth it AR and VR are tools that Ecommerce platforms will be exploring more in the coming years. If you can provide a more immersive experience, you differentiate yourself from the competition and create more value to your customers Stay true to the brand and don’t try to compete on business models that don’t fit For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next In Commerce, this is Stephanie Postles, co-founder of Mission.org and your host. Today, we're going on a digital transformation journey. Matt, how's it going? Matt: Oh, really good. A little cooped up here like we all are, but I'm hanging in there. How are you doing? Stephanie: I'm doing well. Yeah, same hot, very hot. It's 92 here and the places in Silicon Valley usually don't have air conditioning so just a little sweaty in the studio. Stephanie: So I must admit, I have not checked in on Rosetta Stone in a while and when I started browsing through you guys' website, I was like, "Whoa, you all have come a long way from CD-ROMs and everything that I was used to when I was growing up and thought of Rosetta Stone." So I'd love to hear a little bit about what brought you to Rosetta Stone and your background before you joined. Matt: Yeah. It's interesting, just before I dive in, it's rare to join a company where everyone knows your brand and your product like just about everyone in the United States does Rosetta Stone. Matt: And so actually, it's an interesting story because there's not many ed tech companies that are a public companies, you could count them on your hand and the company has been a public company for over 10 years. Matt: It's been around for 27 years and it's a really interesting backstory on how the company was founded and so some of that came into play with what got me attracted to the business. Matt: So a friend of mine who's a recruiter talked to me about this opportunity and I typically do restarts, pivots as they are [crosstalk] for startups. Matt: And even the startups that I join are typically pivots. So there's kind of this pivot transformation story that typically is a draw for me for whatever weird reason why I attracted to these things and when he said, "Oh, it's Rosetta Stone." Matt: I was like, "Oh, the CD-ROM company, the yellow box." I was like, "Yeah, but they're trying to be digital." I'm like, "They're not digital yet?" Matt: And so the draw for me was typically, I take on jobs and assignments that are very difficult where I have to either completely change the strategy or get new financing on a new idea. Matt: There's generally something really, really wrong and Rosetta Stone was so intriguing to me on the surface for the intellectual reasons why they brand the product, people love it. Matt: It's not one of those iconic brands that people are afraid of. It's not like saying, "Matt, do you want to restart Myspace? I was like, "Oh my God, it's Rosetta Stone, of course." Stephanie: That's your next project. Myspace. Matt: Yeah. Stephanie: Just bring it back. Matt: Making it great again. Too soon. But what personally drew me, that's kind of the intellectual business level, what personally drew me into the company was and is the fact that I'm dyslexic, and a third of the revenue for Rosetta Stone is actually one of the fastest growing. Matt: We sell software into K-12 schools primarily in United States that help kids learn how to read, better learn how to read which is a problem. I've seen my own youngest son struggle with his dyslexia as well. Matt: And so on a personal level, it's very emotional when you can kind of tie that emotional tie to a company to its mission and vision. It's really intriguing. So it's been one of the best career decisions I've ever made. Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. Were there any universal truth that you discovered as you are kind of pivoting from different companies and trying out different roles and turning them around? Was there anything like yeah, universal truths that you saw while doing that? Matt: Well, that's a great question. Yeah, a couple things. One is it's so crazy to me, when I step into a company how basically from week one, maybe day one, no one really understands how the business works, like truly understands it. Matt: The key insight, what makes the business special, what can you do to apply capital or a time or attention to improve your strategy or your outcomes? It's just so, it's so weird when you go to a business that's operating, and maybe these are the only businesses I look at where it's not quite tight inside around the strategy and what makes the kind of the economic engine run. I think that's the biggest one that I see off the top of my head. Stephanie: Yeah, that's interesting. I can definitely see a lot of companies struggling there especially as they grow bigger and they have many business units and everyone's kind of chasing a different path, I can see people losing sight of what's important and what's actually driving this business like you're talking about and making it profitable or maybe it's not, but it's the lost leader, something that we still need. So yeah, that's really interesting. Stephanie: So when you joined Rosetta Stone, it hadn't been digital. I mean, only a few years, right? I think it stopped, maybe it didn't stop doing CDs, but it went online. Wasn't it in 2013? Matt: Yeah, I would say it was like half digital. What that means is we were selling one of the most expensive products in the App Store at the time and we didn't really have the concept of really effective sales funnels, a well thought out pricing and packaging strategy based on the type of customers that we're going after. Matt: We didn't have a lot of mobile native features and capability. So I would say it was kind of a port of the CD product in the mobile environment and that was kind of the approach. Matt: And also the approach was really not to focus on the consumer business. So not only did we make this kind of business model and digital transformation move, but also when I came into the business, the big focus was for the language side of the business was to focus on enterprise customers. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Matt: I thought that was actually the wrong move because enterprise is difficult, it's a smaller market, yet consumers where everyone knows Rosetta Stone, everyone likes the product. They actually remember the CD products in many cases and want to use them again, but they want to use them on your phone. Matt: So I thought, "Well heck, everyone knows who I am from a brand awareness perspective, I'll have an easier time deploying less capital against the consumer space and enterprise space." So there was not only just a business model shift, but also a strategy shift. Stephanie: Did you end up sticking with that business model shift to focus on enterprises or did you kind of make it a mix of 50/50? Matt: Oh, good question. So it is about 50/50 today, although consumers now are growing fast. I mean, we're a public company so I can only speak to our public company numbers, but in Q4 of last year, we grew the consumer business about 20% year over year and this is from a business step was growing at single digit. Matt: And then our last reporting earnings quarter, we grew the consumer business around 40% year to year and the enterprise business has struggled more primarily because of the C-19 impacts this year because obviously, we're in a never before seen macro economic headwind, but generally, it's the right decision to make and I view the enterprise business as more of an extension of what we want to do for all adult learners versus creating as a separate entity. Matt: That's a long answer to say consumer turned out to be the right move. It was not clear when I joined the company that even joining Rosetta Stone was a smart move. Matt: I had a lot of folks that I know, acquaintances more so than friends say, "Good luck. There's a lot of error in this company." And I just think it's just a really exciting problem and it's a ... Sorry to keep going because I've had maybe 80 cups of coffee today and just, I don't know. Stephanie: No, keep it up. Matt: It's like the two big verticals that are the most expensive that increased their prices to consumers over the last 50 years are healthcare and education and they have the lowest penetration of digital, and like, "Well, those are hard problems to solve. Why wouldn't you want to be involved?" So anyways, I think it's really fun. Stephanie: Yeah, that's fascinating. So when you came in, what were expectations for your role? What did people want you to do? Did you have a 90-day plan? How did that look? Matt: Oh yeah, if anyone thinks these are scripted questions, these are not scripted questions. These are very good questions. So during the interview process and I'm sure you've had this experience before, when you meet with somebody in a company, you're like, "I'm going to do whatever it takes to get this job." Stephanie: Yup. Matt: And I had one of those experiences with Rosetta Stone. I knew I wanted this job and so I came into maybe the first or second interview with a 90-day plan before I even started, this is the first or second interview. Matt: And the 90-day plan did change slightly because then I knew a little something, but I've done enough of these transformation projects, these pivots where I knew there's these basic building blocks in a format, I have a toolbox of things that I do that really didn't change. Matt: The inevitable strategy didn't know before I started, I didn't know the team members, were they the right fit or not, I didn't know any of that, but the basic building blocks I definitely put together. Stephanie: Got it. So what was on your roadmap, did you have to think about how to re-platform to support your commerce journey and shifting into enterprise and then consumer? What was on that plan that you laid out? Matt: Yeah, and I kind of learned some of this years ago when I was ... Sometimes I think my best work, I can't speak for you or anybody else, but my best work is when I'm completely ignorant of the challenges in front of me and so when I was younger, I worked for ... Well, actually, we sold our company to Macromedia and they had a division called Shockwave. Matt: And Macromedia at that point was not bought by Adobe, and this is Web 1.0 bubble, so I'm dating myself which is not legal in Washington State and these jokes have all jail time. Stephanie: [crosstalk] get us in trouble. Matt: I know. And so we step back through that experience and I learned a lot from the Macromedia Adobe kind of M&A folks about how to approach a problem. And that plus some other work experience over time really got me to the point of thinking through things from I call it the insight, the math in the heart. Matt: And no one framed it that way to me, but that's kind of how I framed it and so when I think about the insight, I think about the addressable market, the position that we are in the marketplace, so supplier's demand competitors. Matt: Then I think about what value we're driving to consumers, what value are you driving to your suppliers if you have them. And then what are the decisions you're going to make based on the strategy that you're laying out for the best outcome? Matt: So you want to grow market share, you want to grow revenue share. Do you not have enough capital? Do you actually need to raise capital and buy companies in order to get size and scale that's the outcome? Matt: So it's kind of a process that I've done over time and I want you to figure all that out, and it takes a while, maybe 90 days, maybe a little bit more, then it's really like how do you put a process together and dashboard is a little trite, but how do you actually run the business so you understand what things are working, the unit economics, what key layers of the business are you looking at, and then figure out an organization to support that and then you find the right team. Matt: And it sounds kind of exhaustive in terms of an answer, but I think too many people come in situations and they say, "Okay, I started this job, I got to restart it. What's my team look like?" Matt: And it's always I think the tail wagging the proverbial pivot dog and I typically, you can find startup people that are good at startups and sometimes, you find startup people that are good at later stage. Matt: You can find every dynamic possible, but until you do the work on, "I need this type of person for this type of growth stage, it's the right person the right time." Matt: If you don't do the work upfront, then you end up having a team that isn't the right team for the outcome that you want. Stephanie: Yup. Yeah, I've heard ... I forgot who said that startup advice where a lot of startups especially around here, are looking to hire that VIP level person, you have to pay a bunch of money to and someone was making the point of like, "Well, will they help you right now where you're at?" Stephanie: And it's okay to kind of grow out of people, but it's not okay to hire someone who's way above that actually can't get their hands dirty and do the work of what needs to be done right now. Matt: That's right. There's lots of people that have different approaches. I actually like to be pretty data driven in terms of how I think about people so I use like employee satisfaction studies and I use different personality profile tests. Matt: Obviously, you're not trying to like ... Hopefully, no one is like applying an AI filter looking at my reactions on this live video, but you can go overboard with data, but I do feel like you need to get the right alchemy talent for your team. Matt: And I've made mistakes where you have that senior person that doesn't want to get their hands dirty when you're like, "Look, I'm in build mode, I'm painting the fence, and I'm the CEO and I'm painting the fence and then I'm talking to the neighbors and driving Uber ..." Matt: The alchemy of that is hard to do, but that's a long winded answer to say there's there's a process and I think it's figuring out what's special about your company, how do you improve it, how do you run it? How did the inputs become the outputs and then what team is required for that? Stephanie: Yeah, very cool. So with the company having to shift as they did to go online and create mobile experiences, what kind of challenges did you see come up when you guys were going through that shift? Matt: Yeah, so there's multiple. So I always think about kind of the four constituents in most businesses, its investors, its customers, it's your internal employees and society. Matt: Not in that order. The order depends on lots of different things and so when I kind of checked down all those boxes, I think the big one, the first one I pick is investors because you're having to explain a model where the CD is purchased up front, it's very expensive versus you don't get all the revenue upfront, you amateurize that revenue and recognize it over 12, 24 whatever terms of the span of the subscription. Matt: So it's a change in terms of how you're reporting revenue, explain it in a consistent way, explaining the new metrics of subscription is challenged one I think from an investor perspective explaining why we have a language business, the Lexia business that I mentioned that focused on literacy is a 20 to 25% growth business, it's growing pretty nicely and language was declining. Matt: So then explaining to investors why do you still have this business and why are you changing the direction from enterprise to consumer, I think for employees. Matt: I always like to think through the employee piece, get the employee piece right, you can do anything and so getting the employees reason to believe, I was the first president to actually run the language business. Matt: It had multiple owners of the P&L and I was the first person probably since the CEO, we had one CEO that that started Rosetta Stone and took it public 20 plus years ago. Matt: I was the first single leader to ... I also tried creating a reason to believe a compelling vision, mission and culture and then when I think through kind of the customer piece, it wasn't as hard to be honest because there was so much brand equity that was good brand equity that doing little bit of things in a way that was kind of planful and data driven actually generated a lot of great outpouring of support. Matt: So the customer side of what we were doing wasn't as difficult as I would have thought and we also had an enterprise business that had already integrated things like digital tutoring with the software and demanding Fortune 500 companies. Matt: So there was some DNA in the company where we knew, "Boy, you can earn every interaction with every interaction." So that was that piece and then later, I started building more hooks into society as part of that and so I kind of view it as a self-fulfilling positive effect of you take care of your employees, they take care of your customers, the investors get great outcomes, and society benefits and you keep kind of turning this crank and you start getting much more reflective about it. Matt: And it does have, it does pay off. It takes I think, in general, I think people brag about how fast they can turn around companies. I don't know why people brag about that. Matt: I don't know, my experience is two years and taking a business from bad to like growing, at least, believing in itself is very hard and so I look at those four factors and I think the society piece is one that's super important that a lot of companies pay lip service to and there's a lot of discussion especially in Silicon Valley about some large companies that are controversial there. Matt: But I'll give you a for instance why if you can tie together the vision, mission, culture values to society, how that's self-reinforcing, we had a obviously horrible global pandemic that we're still pulling ourselves out of and everyone's kind of living through this experience at the same time. Matt: And we basically took just two days to decide that we're going to give away our software for free for three months for students. And we run a current business and selling software to enterprises and adults and we said, "You know what? We know that parents are actually going through hell because there's kind of a make your own adventure right now and schooling." Matt: [crosstalk] and I can feel it myself and we are like, "Oh my God, this is so stressful and the anxiety I heard from our own employees about it was overwhelming and I'm asking them to work harder." Matt: And so we said, "You know what? We're going to give away three months subscription and we're going to just do it and you just have to ... The parents have to put their email address in the school and that's it." Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's awesome. Matt: And we're not a free ... We're a paid subscription product. We're not, there are other competitors that have a freemium model and as you know, changing models or mixed models generally don't have a long history of working and we said, "You know what? We're just going to do it." Matt: And so the team decided to do it, I just said, "Yeah, let's do something." They said, "Here's exactly what we're going to do." And it was live, and then the amount of positive benefits, we got that from pure impressions. Matt: It actually helped our adult business to ... Adult language learning business. That's just one quick example of when those things all start working together. Matt: It's transparent, it's engaged and it's consistent. It becomes kind of operating leverage as well. So it's fun. It's fun to see how that work. Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. It's definitely a good reminder of do good things and good things will come back to you. Did you have any struggles with maybe like surges and people logging in and trying to get on the platform that maybe you hadn't experienced in the past? Because it was maybe a bit more predictable since it wasn't free? Matt: That's a really good question. Not on the system, the system's basis, but certainly from a support basis because we had a lot of, we outsource most of our customer support, and we debated for a while whether we we're going to continue phone support, we still do and I still debate that one, but a lot of our service providers were in outside United States and they all of a sudden had to work from home and then some facilities shut down and so we are just constantly playing whack-a-mole with our support organizations. Matt: And then also, I would say to our frontline heroes were our tutors and we employ a lot of highly educated tutors that have degrees in language learning and they all work from home primarily, they're part-time employees. Matt: And they turn out to be like our heroes because they took some support calls in addition to one-on-one digital tutoring. And so there was unique ways in which we had to adapt with the demand, but I would say more on the demand side regarding the support elements and we definitely saw a surge do the work from home trend as well, but that didn't impact kind of service levels and general software. Stephanie: Okay, cool. And I could see it being a bit tricky to develop and maintain a platform that has so many different layers to the business. I'm thinking about the enterprises who are going on there and buying seats for employees, and I'm thinking about the school is going on there for students, and then the individual consumer like me who's maybe like, "Hey, I'm going to Italy and I want to learn Italian." Stephanie: I don't know, but like it seems like it would be pretty tricky creating a platform that does all of that. How do you think about creating that so everyone gets a good experience and also being able to monitor and measure it in a successful way? Matt: Yeah, I've never seen the complexity Rosetta Stone before at the smallest scale, but what I mean by that is we have three businesses and we're a small cap public company. So that's unusual and the business was run on the language side ... Well, let me step back. Matt: So the literacy business is a business that was acquired seven, eight years ago and that's a 30-year-old company that was acquired, it's called Lexia and it works as a distinct operating unit from my business and is run by an awesome gentleman. Matt: And I use that word loosely and if he's listening, sorry Nick, he's a great guy and so passionate and his team is so good and it's ... I've never seen before a product that's built with like academic research combined with awesome data product engineering that gets results. Matt: It's just, I've never seen anything like it and they had the time to build this product over these many years, it was always digital first and so they're run separately. Matt: My language business was run on two different tech stacks. Actually, it was like five and when I started, I was like, "Well, wait a minute, why is this product that looks the same running off this underlying architecture? Why don't we move everything to react?" Matt: As I kind of went through this morass of tech stacks, it was a lot of M&A that generate a lot of complexity and a lot of tech debt. And so I would say majority of our innovation was not innovation, it was just keeping these old tech stacks up. Matt: So from an R&D perspective, in addition to all the other complexities we just talked about in this interview, I was trying to grow the consumer business, trying to change the business model, swapping out new team members for more growth orientation and doing a huge tech migration. Matt: And the complexity around that is mind boggling. We finished that late last year like de-flashing like old weird services, moving to a services architecture. All that stuff we end up doing and inevitably, the goal is to have one learner experience, just like you use Google, Google Mail for your enterprise, or personal. Matt: There were some admin privileges and other things that are associated in the back end, but in general, the product kind of looks and feels the same and that's, the inevitable goal which we're very close to execute on. Stephanie: Got it. Were there any pitfalls that you experienced when going through all those different pieces to the business or anything where you're like, "When we implemented this, or we move to this type of tech stack, this is when we saw a lot of improvements with conversions or anything around the consumer or enterprise business." Matt: Yeah, just on conversions, yeah, one thing on that is interesting is the amount of improvement we saw just with like putting different team members with specific goals and this is going to sound kind of crazy because everyone is going to like, "Yeah, he's talking about agile." Matt: Just getting very specific about areas in the funnel to improve and how to adjust the trial experience at certain times, and experiencing and showing customers different things at different times. Matt: That had like a crazy amount of upside for us. And I would say less architecturally that we see an improvement other than we had just less stuff that wasn't moving the innovation forward, but just these small things have big impacts and get and I must say like if any one of my team members is listening to this and say, "You haven't solved all that yet is." Matt: It's very difficult to take a business that is so complex, and then all sudden kind of say, "Look, we're going to reduce all the complexity, networks are innovating again." I think there's still a challenge of like, faster, smaller teams, we use a safe framework which is kind of scrum like. Matt: I don't think we figured all that out yet, but it's way different than when I came in and felt very waterfally to me. We're going to issue a press release, what this release is going to look like in one year and we're going to work back from that, I'm like, "Yeah, that's very Amazon." Stephanie: Yeah, yup. Matt: I'm like, "Well, how do you even know this is the right thing if you don't have any customer?" So there was there's a whole evolution of trying things, validating them, making sure that you're deploying enough capital against that makes sure it gets a fair shake, but not too much where you're, you're in over your head and we've had some public black eyes on some of our tests, and I don't care. Matt: We were trying some things internationally with tutoring, it didn't work out, it didn't have the capital honestly to support some of it and I kind of feel like those are good experiences to understand whether you're going to invest more in something or not. Matt: And so I think the fact that we can start doing those things now because we simplified the platform or if possible. Yeah, I think it's hard to say no to things and yes to things. And some of that discipline is easier when you're a startup because you just don't have people to outsource to. Stephanie: Yup. There's always an excuse. Nope, no one else can help us with that. Can't do it. Matt: Yeah. There's never like I'm a product manager by training and I've used every product manager tool under the sun and now I've kind of just resulted in my using Google Sheets again and what I'm trying to triage like epics and themes and stories, and I still like to play around with those types of planning elements, I just always look at all these people in these points available. I'm like, "You guys have no idea the luxury we have." Stephanie: I'm sure they like hearing that. Matt: Yeah, there's nothing more pure than a startup and it's like five people, five engineers and like a product manager that codes and the seat goes, doing UI, UX and it's ... Stephanie: Yeah, that's really fun. So you mentioned earlier a free trial which I actually went on Rosetta's website and I ended up going through the entire trial of learning Spanish. How did you all think about creating that free trial and actually convincing people to do it? Stephanie: Because a lot of times, I think I would see something like that and I'd be like, "Oh, that's too much time and I don't want to start that process right now." Stephanie: And I eagerly jumped in and started doing the lesson plan because it was engaging and fun, and it kind of felt like the real world with the person walking around and you're stopping and talking to them. How did you think about creating that? So it actually converted users into paying customers? Matt: Oh, thanks for saying that. Yeah, I think we have a long ways to go. I think in terms of what we could be doing is we're just, I just feel like we're sprinting to the start line because of the late start, but I think the core piece is for most companies and they think about like what business do you want to be in a lot of people will default to like whatever their venture capitalists said they should do from their other companies they manage or whether they read on TechCrunch or whatever, or listen to on this program is I think you have to be very specific once you figure it out the approach to the product that you're going after. Matt: Are you going to be freemium? Are you going to be paid trial? Or are you going to be for lack of a better term I call it force-trial or upfront trial and there's elements of this that change, there's kind of nuances. Because that's more of a nuanced discussion is the freemium players in the language space for instance would be Duolingo. Matt: How do you get the most amount of MAUs, Monthly Active Users and get enough of them to convert? Or the Spotify example, and you're using basically cap ex as cap, you're using your R&D to drive user and usage and that's kind of Slack-like. Matt: Slack is slightly different obviously. Then the paid trial is, "Well, I have enough of something that's good that I want a lot of people to use it, but I want the conversion to be pretty good." Matt: And so for the first one with freemium, you have to say, "Okay, it's going to be so fun and compelling and I'm going to actually invest in growth that isn't there yet because I think I have scale effects —I can crowd out everyone else." Matt: The second one is I actually have a pretty good product, I need enough people to use it and then feel like I use it enough to want to use more of it. And that's what I decided to do and I'll explain why. Matt: And then on the upfront paid thing is typical like for low ACV, Annual Contract Value SaaS companies you'd see, please just call my ... Just call us and we'll walk you through it with one of my sales reps. Matt: And we'll do a guided tour through the demo or whatever and the decision why we did the second one was it was a good decision and is people knew enough about what the Rosetta Stone brand was like that we knew people would want to try it and that for people that remember what it was like, they definitely would want to use it again and we felt like the pinch was more compelling if we gave everyone a little taste of that. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Matt: We could have said, "Please pay up front." And we're the gold standard and giddy up, but we felt like we needed to earn our stripes a little bit into proving to people that we weren't just like a port of a CD product. Matt: And so that's why we decided to do that and we've played along different roads before. We've never done full freemium and I would argue at this point in the market, we would not be better served to do that because Duolingo has done a really good job of growing their monthly active users and have built some advantages there and we're not trying to play that game. Matt: I'm trying to play the game of being a really good, effective language learning product and I'm trying to set the tone in the trial experience that when you're using the product, it's not going to be like a game. Matt: It's not going to be like Clash of Clans. I guess Clash of Clans is a bad example, or the jewel or like Candy Crush I guess is what I was thinking of. Matt: Every day, I collect coins and I'm collecting coins to benefit my gameplay. It's kind of how I think about Duolingo a little bit and it's ... I think they're masterful of what they do, but I think they're designed to do something different than what I'm trying to do. Matt: And if you're serious about learning a language, and you stick to what I'm doing and you do a couple tutor sessions that we offer, you're going to get there. Matt: And so the business model and what we're trying to do in terms of posture, not market share, but revenue share really drove kind of the philosophy on the trial experience. Stephanie: Yeah, it definitely, it felt more serious especially where you could speak in the language and it would tell you I guess if the tonality was right, and if you were saying it correctly, and it would keep kind of advising you on it, once I saw it had that feature, that to me was when I was like, "Whoa, this is really serious, and I better be ready to learn this language because it's not like a game, it's not just saying random words." Stephanie: You're actually kind of conversating and having to hear yourself which I think is really important. That seems like a big first step to getting people to try it. Matt: It's an interesting observation because we are very oral first in our pedagogy. We want people to engage with the product and speaking is actually just in general a really good way to learn and then the key outcome of speaking well is not sounding stupid. Matt: And so if you're trying to learn a language, you want to sound somewhat authentic. So for Rosetta Stone, I would say, for anyone that really wants to learn a language, we'll get you there, but if you're just kind of trying to build like, it's like counting your calories kind of. Matt: If you wanted to do something like that, then I would say, pick a freemium product over ours and yeah, it's not like super intense scary, but it's like, "Yeah, you better do your lessons before you do your group tutoring session." Stephanie: Yeah. No, that's, I mean, that's great to incentivize people like you're paying for this, you might as well get the best out of it. Is there, so one thing I was thinking when I was interacting with the free trial was, "Wow, this would be really cool if there was like a virtual world where you could be walking around and talking to other students who are learning." Stephanie: Are you all thinking about any technologies like that to implement or is there anything on your radar where you're like, "We're moving in this direction or planning on trying this tech out or this digital platform out?" Matt: Yeah, we've played with VR in the past. I've been kind of like bearish every time someone says, "Let's go into VR." I'm like, "This is [crosstalk 00:39:27]." Stephanie: It's a hot word for a while. VR everything, it doesn't matter to the problem. Matt: Yeah, I know and I have a lot of friends. One really good friend of ours, she has a pretty successful, his definition of success and I think it is honestly successful VR games company, but like I have a lot of other friends that went into VR that gaming or especially verticals that just had a hell of a time just because there's not enough handsets that are available. Matt: Well, we have dabbled in in terms of immersive experience. I think what you're saying is is there a way to since we're immersive, use technology to make it even more immersive and what I really want to do is enable more AR in our experience. Matt: And we have like a little feature called seek and speak where you can ... It's like an almost a sample app where you can use your phone, we use ARKit to do a treasure hunt for things around your house like fruits, objects around your house and incorporate that in your speech practice. Matt: And I always thought that was like a really cool thing for us to expand into and if we ever get the Apple visor, some AR HoloLens or whatever, it'd be cool to start interacting with your world around you, not just with translation, but also to see if you can actually interact with folks that are kind of ambient around that experience. Matt: I personally and maybe this we're going too deep here, but I always thought it'd be cool if like I can visit another country and just decide how much of the spoken language am I going to generate myself, how much am I going to have my device do it because I'm not going to spend the time. Matt: And then how can I phone a friend? How could I have my tutor or my guide integrated experience where I'm going to sound really authentic if I do this or here's an experience that I could do here. Matt: I think the goal for language learning inevitably is different based on where you are in the world, but if you're from the United States or one of ... Maybe some European countries like the UK, it's kind of like this is a cool way to get engaged with a culture. Matt: If you're not in those countries, learning English primarily is a necessity and so I think some of these AR ideas that you just mentioned would be really good and speaking more frequently to other folks that are even not native speakers, but just trying to generate language is a very good way to teach. Matt: We have a product coming out called Rosetta Stone English this summer, literally like a couple months and it is a version of Rosetta Stone for EL kids or English Learners K through six. Matt: And this product is an oral first product and this blew me away. The stat if you're trying to teach a kid English primarily from lots of different countries is written communication. Matt: It's like 20% spoken and so our product is like 70, 80% spoken because this ... And so it's just really interesting. What could you do that's more immersive using AR or VR? Matt: I think there's, I'm with you. I think there's a lot of cool things you could do and I think you could enhance the travel experience quite a bit. I think you could enhance the young learner experience quite a bit. I think there's so many cool things you could do. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree and there seems like a lot of opportunities there. So what kind of disruptions do you see coming to the world of ecommerce and online learning? Matt: Yeah, it's a weird market and it's weird because like depending on what we're talking about in terms of overall commerce, it's like a $6 trillion education market, 6 trillion. Matt: Consumer is probably the largest out of that and then obviously, there's higher ed, there's middle school, high school, there's elementary, and then there's adult education and then where it's coming from, is the consumer paying, is the government paying. Matt: And so take all this aside, less than 10% is digital right now and I think there's going to be this massive realization and awakening because of the C-19 pandemic of everything that I do has to be digital. Matt: And it's not that we're replacing teachers, it's how do we integrate digital curriculum and conductivity between the teacher and the student, how do I build a data layer that personalized that experience. Matt: I think that can happen between, language learning, it can happen in lots of different curriculum like reading and writing. And not having a digital enabled kind of curriculum I think is going to be like if you don't have a solution for that, if you're an education system, if you're a college, if you're whatever, and if you don't offer these types of products in the future, you're going to go the way the dodo bird. Matt: I think higher education has a wake up call. J.Crew, I like J.Crew, they're in bankruptcy now. Hertz, I used Hertz. They're in bankruptcy now and I think there's this massive pull forward right now that's happening because the product that we've been using in education hasn't changed in like 40, 50 years. Stephanie: Yup. Matt: It's the same problem. If I time warp myself from 50 years ago into most classrooms, it would look the same. Stephanie: Yup. Yeah, I've always kind of thought that a disruption was definitely coming around higher education, but this seems to have moved everything forward by many years and especially around K through 12 where that felt like it would be much harder to change. Stephanie: For colleges, it's like, "Okay, now it's changing pretty quickly with all the boot camps coming out and company's not really always requiring degrees, at least in this area." Stephanie: But K through 12 felt hard to change and it feels like this is going to be an interesting forcing function now that like you said, a lot of kids are home and parents are figuring out how to be a part of their education more in the online learning process. Stephanie: It just seems like there's going to be a lot of opportunities that come up because of this. Matt: Yeah, I agree. And I also think that now I'm sounding like the tech utilitarian, but I would say that ed tech and I'm not from the ed tech space, but I am in it now. Matt: I would say that the ed tech providers that ... We're now entering the third wave I guess is how I think about it. The second wave which is typical of most other businesses that you and I have seen before, like ecommerce or sales ops tools, now you can talk about those and go, "Remember Omniture and it was badass?" Matt: Yes, it's now part of Adobe Cloud Matt is when you talk about these generational shifts in how we think about things, I think a lot of the ed tech players, people who are selling software to schools or directly to the parents or kids or whomever, they've definitely oversold or oversold the efficacy of some of those products. Matt: And when I talk about digital transformation, I'm not talking about the ability to do things self serve, and have the teacher look at some flat experience. Matt: Right now and this is not against teachers. Teachers, they're like little mini MacGyvers to me. I mean, they're like doing amazing things streaming together curriculum on the fly. Stephanie: Yeah, both my sister and my mom are teachers and I do not know how they're doing it and how they had to pivot so quickly to being in the classroom and my sister is actually a ESL, English as a Second Language teacher. Yeah. Matt: Oh my gosh, okay. Stephanie: Yup, because I have a twin sister and she always tells me about the difficulties that she's experiencing right now trying to bring her students online and develop curriculums online and a lot of them don't have internet access and it's just very interesting seeing how they kind of develop workarounds to make it work for their students. Matt: Yeah, my criticism of education isn't the teacher clearly, a lot of it is kind of the cost basis in the bureaucracy and when I talk about ed tech, it's like I think it comes down to and this is not a Matt Hulett Rosetta Stone specific thing is educating a group of young individuals or even old individuals, it doesn't matter the same way at the same time makes zero sense. Matt: And so building in the ability for the student to do some things themselves, having a data layer so that a teacher understands the areas in which that student is struggling, and so that the instruction becomes very personalized. Matt: It is generally what I'm talking about and it's right now, I think we have a billion and a half young kids around the world that don't have access to computers. Matt: And if they do have access to computers, they're scanning in their Math homework and sending it to a teacher. Well, who knows if I struggle for five minutes on this problem versus long division versus multiplication? The teacher doesn't know. Matt: And so I think the ed tech software that I'm more in favor of what I'm speaking about is how do you build curriculum-based, efficacy-based software, not unlike what your mom and your sister think about because they have degrees and know how to actually educate someone, they're not software [inaudible 00:49:10]. Matt: And if they're wanting to provide very explicit instruction, my guess is they're really swamped. They've got other things they need to do, they're probably paying for materials that are [crosstalk 00:49:22]. Stephanie: Yup. Matt: And so I think about all these stresses and we're asking them to provide excellent education, it's just, it's too much. And so I really feel like this third wave of technology, and I think it's going to happen is it's going to integrate this we call AI and HI, how do you integrate the best of what software can do and integrate that into the lesson planning of the teacher versus let's try to create AI for the sake of AI and disintermediate teachers which I think is ridiculous is and that's what I'm talking about. Matt: Because I see a lot of tech companies playing the game of ed tech versus education companies that are actually trying to be technology companies. Matt: I think the latter will be the software and the providers that will end up actually being the most successful and the most adopted, but obviously, I'm passionate about this because I've seen this with our Lexia software. Matt: And we have like 16 plus academic studies that show that the software works and I'm like, "How is this possible that two-thirds of kids still today by the time they're a third grade or reading below their grade level that continues through eighth grade?" Matt: Two-thirds are reading below level. How is this possible? And I'm not here to tell my own software. I'm just like, "Why is this possible?" Well, it turns out we don't train teachers to teach kids how to read. Matt: There's an approach to it, and we don't do real time assessments of kids struggling, the teachers swamped, they don't know what's going on. Matt: Anyways, I could talk about this for hours, but I do think there's this world where at some point, the $6 trillion business of educating all these kids and adults and young adults will be digitized. Matt: And I think that will be an interesting space. Ed tech is that one space where most VCs wouldn't want to touch. Stephanie: Yup. Yeah, I know. It's a hard ... I mean, health care and education. It's a hard space. So yeah, I completely agree. I know we're running into time and I want to make sure we can jump into the lightning round. Matt: Okay. Stephanie: Is there any other high level thoughts that you want to share before we jump into that? Matt: Nope. I think I hit the verbose button when I answered that question, but I didn't realize you have some familiar background on education which got me going so I [crosstalk] Stephanie: Yeah, no, yeah. Matt: I will be [crosstalk] lightning round. Stephanie: Yeah, we need a whole other podcasts where we can just talk education stuff and I can have my family be the call-ins and they can give us a little advice and ideas. Stephanie: All right, so the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud is where I ask a few questions and you have one minute or less Matt to answer. Are you ready? Matt: I'm ready. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your reading list? Matt: Words that matter. I don't know the author. Stephanie: Cool. What's up next on your podcast list? Matt: This podcast of course. Stephanie: Hey, good. That's the right answer. Matt: And then Masters of Scale. There's a new podcast actually with one of my competitors from Duolingo. Stephanie: Oh-oh. Very cool. Yeah, that's a good one. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Matt: God, it is embarrassing. Do I have to say it? Stephanie: Yes you do. Matt: Too Hot to Handle. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. I can't believe you're watching that. I'm judging a little bit, but I've also seen a few episodes. So if you were to choose a company right now to turn around, not Rosetta Stone, some brand new company, not a brand new one, but maybe one that's in the industry right now where you're like, "I could jump in and help." What company would you choose? Matt: That's a great question. WeWork. Stephanie: Woo, that would be an interesting one to try and turn around. Matt: Yeah. Stephanie: All right, next one. What app are you using on your phone right now that's most helpful? Matt: I listen to a lot of podcast, I love Overcast. I don't know if anyone ever mentions that. I just love it because I listen to things 2x. Stephanie: Yup, yeah, I know. I agree. I like that app as well. What language are you or your family working on right now to learn? Matt: Well, it's funny. I'm kind of barely competent in Spanish. My 16-year-old is actually I would say pretty intermediate level Spanish and my 10-year-old is oddly learning Japanese. Stephanie: Oh, go. Go him. A boy, right? Yeah, that's great. All right and our last, a little bit more difficult question. What's up next for ecommerce professionals? Matt: Oh boy, ecommerce professionals. I think to me it's a lot of the same topics in ecommerce have been discussed for so many years and I think that the interesting one is how do we actually make social commerce really good. Matt: And I think I spend a lot of time just, I'm not serious with it, but playing with like, TikTok and Twitch, and I think there's some elements to the social selling piece that I think are super interesting that no one's really figured out and I buy actually a lot of products off Instagram, and it's still too much friction and it's not quite working right for me. Matt: So I think there's some ... How do you integrate ecomm and then TikTok in a way that's native to that audience? I think there's some things there. Stephanie: Oh, that's a good answer. Well, Matt, this has been yeah, such a fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and Rosetta Stone? Matt: Rosettastone.com for the company and I'm matt_hulett on Twitter and it was a pleasure to talk to you today. Stephanie: All right, thanks so much. Matt: Thank you.  

My guest today is Matt Nish-Lapidus. Matt is an artist, musician, researcher, designer, and educator based in Toronto. Besides creating art and music, and doing design work, Matt also teaches at the Copenhagen Institute of Interaction Design. In this conversation, we discuss the role of art in our evolving technological and cultural environments. Listen to the full conversation   Show notes Matt Nish-Lapidus (emenel.com) Matt on Instagram Matt on Twitter University of Toronto New media art SFMoMA MoMA (New York) Tate Modern Nam June Paik Theodore Adorno The Anthropocene New Materialism Jane Bennett The Walt Disney Company Marvel Impressionism CARFAC David Rokeby Pietà by Michelangelo Buonarroti Jenny Holzer New Tendencies Soft Thoughts må Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the full transcript Jorge: So, Matt, welcome to the show. Matt: Thanks. Happy to be here.  Jorge: For folks who might not know you, can you please tell us about yourself? Matt: Yeah. I sometimes these days refer to myself as a recovering designer. My original background, educationally, was in fine arts and specifically in new media art. And then, over the arc of my career, I found myself working in interaction design and very interested in the intersection between humanity and various types of complex technology, as in networks and computational technology. And I did that for about 15 years. And towards the end of that period, I found myself more interested in the types of questions that felt like they were better answered through my art practice than they were through my design practice, and the kinds of questions that also didn't seem to be that interesting to other designers or to our clients or to potential employers or partners. So about five years ago now, I left my job and decided to focus more on my artistic practice, which includes music and sound art as well as technology-based arts of different types. And in September of last year, I actually started my MFA, which is a Master of Fine Arts, in Studio Practice at the University of Toronto, which I'm currently pursuing on top of other things that I continue to do, like playing music and work with other organizations. Media Art Jorge: Folks listening to the show might not be familiar with the term “media art.” How do you define that? Matt: So the most basic way to understand it – in the highest level, probably – is that unlike painting or traditional photography or other types of sculpture – you know, other types of traditional arts – media art and new media art were emergent practices that specifically dealt with new types of mass media originally. So, it was artists working with televisions, with video, with different kinds of sound and broadcast technologies. And then over the course of the last couple of decades, became artists that work with the internet or with computation, and different kinds of network technologies, and think about them from an artistic perspective, which is usually a critical perspective or thinking about the impact that they have on people or the way that people relate to them and the new types of relationships and new types of affects that they create. Jorge: So, it's art that uses technologies, especially like communications technologies, as its medium? Is that the idea? Matt: Yeah, as its medium and often as its topic. So, we make art about the technology is sometimes using the same ones. And the practice goes back to the late fifties, but really in some ways is now the dominant practice in contemporary art. Jorge: Can you name some examples of how you would experience new media art? Matt: Yeah. I mean, if you've ever been to a contemporary art gallery or museum of modern art, whether it's the SF MoMA or the MoMA in New York, or the Tate Modern in London, a lot of what you're seeing would be in this category. Artists who work with light, who work with sound, work with video projections, interaction in different ways… You know, a famous example from the early days of media artist Nam June Paik, who worked a lot with televisions and his work was both about television as a cultural object, but also as a medium and as a material. The Role of Art Jorge: We're recording this in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic in the spring of 2020. And I have to mention that the context that we're, that we're speaking in, because we are accelerating our move to interacting through technology. And you and I are talking right now through Zoom and I can see you. So we're having a conversation, and it's perhaps too soon to know, but I'm wondering what role does art play – especially, you know, this new media art that you're talking about – in a world in which we're increasingly interacting through technology. Perhaps the question is more broadly, it's like, what is the role of art? Matt: Yeah. So, it's an interesting question and it's one that's been asked by artists and philosophers for many, many years. And I've been thinking about this lately. In the fifties – it might have even been in the sixties, don't quote me on the date – a German philosopher and media theoretician, Theodore Adorno, wrote an essay in which he asked, how do you make art after Auschwitz? Like, what is the role of art in a world where something as horrible as the Holocaust could happen? And how do you as an artist deal with that, and still see beauty and joy and the sublime and all these different things, when our understanding of what's possible in the world is so fundamentally changed and so terrifying. And I think there are a number of similar questions that we can be asking ourselves right now. Before this outbreak, the big question on a lot of people's minds was a similar one, which is how do you make art in the Anthropocene? If we're witnessing a period of, like massive global scale change and devastation this like slow train wreck, what is the role of art and how do you continue to make art in the face of such a massive and often depressing and serious thing. And I think like the pandemic that we're currently trying to figure out raises a similar kind of question again, just like what is the point of art and how do you make it and what do you make it about when our understanding of what's possible in the world has fundamentally changed. When there's a new thing, a new object that exists that didn't really exist before. There's a school of philosophy called New Materialism and a kind of well-known New Materialist, Jane Bennett, talks about these things as what she calls assemblages. And an assemblage is like a network of heterogeneous actors that all have different kinds of agency. And, looking at the pandemic through the lens of Bennett's idea of an assemblage, you can start to see the agency of the virus as a political actor, as an economic actor, as a social and cultural actor. And for me anyway, that's where as an artist, my interest in it lies, and where I think I can kind of grapple with our current situation is not saying, “okay, well what do we do when we're all locked in our homes,” but saying, “what are the fundamental changes in the world that we can observe? What are the things we want to try to say or express about them or understand through making things?” And then, “what kinds of things can I make that help with that understanding or are cathartic or express an affect or give people something that I think they want or need given the kind of drastic changes that this is affecting on all of our systems?” High Art and Popular Art Jorge: When you say that, do you make a distinction between… I don't know if the appropriate terms are like “high art” and “popular art”? Matt: Like in terms of, like a museum and gallery art versus like television shows and movies and things like that? Jorge: Yes. Matt: Yeah. I mean, I don't see a huge distinction in a formal way. I think good media, like a really well-made television show, for instance, that deals with these topics in a critical and thoughtful way, that's based on research and, you know, does things like… explores the ideas through the medium that they're working with. I don't see that as being massively different than, you know, a piece of art that you might see in a art gallery, or in a museum.  Jorge: I would also expect that the reach would be different as well, right? Matt: Yeah. Probably considerably different… Jorge: Yeah, it'd have a greater influence on the culture if it's a movie put out by the Walt Disney Company, as opposed to something exhibited in an art gallery, no? Matt: Yeah. I mean, the reach would be massively different. I think though even in those media that, for the reach to be at the scale of like a Disney or, you know, Marvel kind of thing, you're having to make stories that connect with people in a certain way, which, I feel like often precludes you from doing the deep and difficult work of truly critically reflecting on a situation and expressing something about it. And when you see TV shows or movies that do that, they often don't have those kinds of audiences. Jorge: Yeah. The intent is different, right? Like one is a purely or mostly commercial product, whereas the other, like you're saying, is more of an exploration of a way of being, an ideal? Matt: A way of being, a way of thinking, a way of seeing and understanding things. I think when art is really amazing, for me anyway, it's when something changes, like a piece of art can change the way that I see the world. It can change the way that I understand myself and see myself. It can reflect back to me a feeling or an idea that I've had but couldn't express or didn't have words for. And I think great art from every era, especially the modern era – which is, you know, loosely from like Impressionism on up – a lot of it is really about creating that kind of critical and reflective mirror and reflecting not just to the individual viewer, but reflecting on culture and on society and on the place and time where it comes from and reacting to things that are happening in the world. So, like, I'm excited actually to see how artists react to what's happening now because in a way, that's what art does. The Market for Art Jorge: One thing that I was wondering about is how does the market value art? I mean, we were talking about Disney, and we know what that market looks like, but I was just wondering someone who makes art for a living, how do you make a living? Matt: It's different in different countries, which is interesting. I mean, there's a combination of things depending on the kind of work that you make. Some artists make work that you can sell, that people can buy and there's an open market and you make a name for yourself, and the work goes up and down and value based on how collectible your work is or what museums want to acquire it or, or other things like that and that works for, I guess more and more kinds of media these days. Like it used to be that if you made installation or you made sound art or video, it was hard to sell that on like the art market. That's becoming more of a thing. People will buy that stuff. In a lot of countries, other than the US… So, in Canada and the UK and a lot of Europe, there's a big public funding infrastructure for arts. So, in Canada we have arts councils at the municipal, provincial, and national level that provide funding for artists and artists' projects in different ways. There's also regionally determined fee structures for exhibitions. So, if you get a piece of work into an exhibition and the gallery has funding, they will usually pay based on the agreed-upon fee schedule. It's kind of like the actors' unions? It's not an official union in Canada, it's called CARFAC. It's the Canadian Artists…. some, I don't remember what it stands for. But they set a kind of standardized fee schedule. And so often when you submit a piece of work to a gallery or to an exhibition or to a curator, it'll say on the submission, like we pay, you know, CARFAC's scheduled fees, which are basically based on like how much experience you have and they have standardized fee structures. Those are the main ways. The other one is commissions. So, a museum or a festival or a curator may really love your work and want you to make something new for their exhibition, in which case they'll have a production budget and they will offer you some sort of project budget to make the work. And then at the end of that, either they own it, or you own it, depending on the stipulations of the contract. Time and Place  Jorge: One of the interesting aspects of what's happening right now is that time feels greatly accelerated. I saw a tweet just yesterday that said something like, “the last couple of weeks have been a really long year,” or… Matt: Yeah. Jorge: It feels like time has greatly accelerated right now and, conversely, it feels like place has become blurred. You are… I believe you're in Toronto right now, right? Matt: Yup. Jorge: And, like I said, we're talking over Zoom and, earlier this morning I was in a meeting with colleagues who are here in the Bay Area, but I experienced the interaction in exactly the same plane that I'm interacting with you now. So, you could be here for all I know, right? So, place has become erased somehow. And I'm wondering about time and place and new media and how new media, I mean, it has it in the name, right? “New” Media? Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because when that term originally was coined, it was in -response to existing media. So, it was trying to say, we're not print newspapers, photography, like we're not talking about those things. We're talking about these new media, which are video and television. Originally it was those things, and then, computation. And I think time and place and the kind of collapsing of time in place has been a big part of the work of new media and media artists since probably the mid- eighties. You know, there's a piece I remember seeing by David Rokeby who's a new media artist that's been working since the early eighties with computer vision and computational space in different ways, where he set up a room with quadraphonic sound – so four big speakers – and then had a gallery – this was in Toronto – and had a gallery in Amsterdam, set up the same thing in their room. And then using very rudimentary digital video cameras from – this was probably in the late eighties, early nineties – movement in one space was translated to low frequency sound and the other space basically creating like airwaves. So, if two people were moving simultaneously in both spaces, they would actually feel the impact of the other person's body as air pressure through sound? So already in those kinds of early pieces, they were thinking a lot about like, what does it mean to collapse space? How do we be physically present in different spaces? I feel like we take a lot of this for granted these days. And it's interesting because like this phenomenon we're experiencing right now is really unique in a number of ways. But one of the most interesting to me is that it is global, like actually global. Everyone around the world is impacted by this in some way, and very similar ways in terms of like, isolation or lockdown or social distancing or these, you know, words that we didn't even have in our vocabulary a week ago. And now, like, literally every human being on earth is impacted by this. And I can't think of another phenomenon that crosses those boundaries in the same way. But in my own practice and then thinking about, you know, art and the things that I'd be excited to see is in a time where the world feels like it's been collapsed in on itself, and we're experiencing this unifying, like, single event as a species, it would be really interesting to think about what the local differences actually are. Like, what does it mean to be in isolation in different parts of the world or in different cultures, or you know, in Italy, people were singing to each other from their balconies? I can't imagine that happening in London. So, even though we're experiencing this unifying effect, there's still going to be those like local cultural differences and uniquenesses that I think are so important to thinking about artwork and the way that art reflects culture, and is often so specific and so unique to certain places in certain times in the way that it responds aesthetically to localized events. Experiencing Art Online Jorge: You reminded me of something that I've noticed over the past few weeks, which is cultural institutions like museums announcing to the world that, “Hey, you know, that you can view our collection online!” Now, especially with so many people at home, who are looking for new things to do with themselves while there, they only have this little window on their computer to the world, right? Matt: Yeah. Yeah! It's an interesting thing to see since so many museums are so woefully behind in terms of digitizing collections and thinking about alternative ways of exhibiting work. Our experience of art and the way that we think about art, especially at the institutional level is so grounded in this physical experience of like, being in a place with a thing, or in a place for a performance or these very spatio-temporal experiences. So, yeah, it's fascinating to see what some museums are doing. In some ways it reminds me of the mid-nineties, late nineties, again when there was an explosion of like “net art” and artists working specifically with the internet as their medium. And so, like those works existed natively online and museums and galleries at the time were struggling to figure out how to present them in physical space. Like, how do we take a work by a net artist and put it in an exhibition at the MoMA? We didn't know how, and they still don't really know how. And now we're faced with the exact opposite problem, where they're like, how do we get all of our paintings and sculptures and objects available to people somehow through the internet or through virtual tours or whatever it is that they're doing? Jorge: And these new technologies change our understanding of the work itself, right? When you said experiencing the work in a physical space, I remember the experience of seeing in person the statue Pietà, by Michelangelo. And that's an artifact that when you're standing in front of it, it has a certain volume because of the materials it's made from, you know that it has a certain weight and you can touch it. But you can feel that, being in this space with it, and it's very different to see it in photographs, which I had seen many photographs before I saw the real thing, but it's a different experience. And I don't know too much about new media art, but I remember in university looking at the work of Jenny Holzer. Matt: Yep. Jorge: And, for folks who are listening who might not know Jenny Holzer, she worked a lot with words, right? Like she had these slogans that she presented in various ways. And after Twitter, I have never been able to look at her work the same way. Matt: Yeah. It's so interesting. Being Relevant vs. Remaining Relevant Jorge: You know? And I'm wondering, with technologies that are changing so fast, as someone who is working with art, how do you balance expressing the needs and perhaps if we can use this phrase, the “spirit of the time” with making the work stand up over time and have some kind of longevity? Matt: Yeah, that is a very hard question. And it often comes down to the work having some sort of value beyond its technology. So, like with Jenny Holzer for instance, the words are an important part of her work, obviously, but so is the way that it's presented. So, you know, she made these big LED signs with scrolling text in different directions and sculptures out of them. She did a series of giant texts that was projected on buildings. So, like the context of presentation and the way that the words were made into an object really changes the work. But then the words themselves, you know, for some of the pieces are maybe good enough words that they stand up on their own. And so like, would Jenny Holzer's words work as a series of tweets, would they have the same impact? Maybe, maybe some of them would, maybe some of them wouldn't. And the ones that wouldn't, probably wouldn't because they rely on the context and materiality of the way that she presented them to create the meaning, of the overall piece. You know, one of the things that I love about, being an artist and, and working on artworks, especially like contemporary artwork, it's rarely a single thing. What we often are working with, especially what I'm working with is these like assemblages of things. And it's in the relationships between the things that the meaning emerges, rather than in the individual components themselves. So, I also work a lot with texts, and I've been working a lot with texts over the last year or so, and the texts themselves, most of them I don't think would hold up just as text or as poetry or as whatever. I think they need the rest of the things that go around them – the other objects or the aesthetic treatments or the context of presentation – in order to become meaningful. And one of the things that's interesting about this move to online that we're being forced through due to the closure of institutions and isolation, is that, well, the museums struggled to figure out how to present work online that was never meant to be seen that way, and to change its context, which changes its meaning. I think there's massive opportunity in starting to think about how to make work targeted at this new context like that exists natively in this kind of distributed way, which is not a new thing. People have been doing that. There's, like I said before, net artists and, lots of people who make art that's targeted at the internet or targeted at different media platforms. But this feels like an opportunity for more people or more of us to start thinking in that way and start to really like push at the boundaries and kind of assumptions baked into the networks that we exist within. So that's actually something that I find kind of exciting, and I'm starting to think about and work on. Closing Jorge: Well, that's a fantastic place to wrap up our conversation, because my next question to you is, “and where can folks follow up with you to find out what you're up to and is your art online in ways that folks could experience it?” Matt: A little bit of it is. You know, having learned how to make websites in the mid-nineties at the birth of the internet, I've never actually had a website of my own, because I've never happy with them and I never finished them, or like I'll finish part of it and then not put any content up. So, I am working actively right now and taking advantage of this time to make a website for myself. So, you can find my nascent website with very little content, but I'm going to be adding more every day at emenel.ca. Emenel, which are my initials spelled out phonetically, is also where you can find me on just about everything. I'm probably most active on Instagram these days, and I do post pictures of my work and work in progress on Instagram. And yeah, emenel.ca is my, it will be my website. It's there now, but there's not a lot of new content on it yet. I'm working on documenting some work and writing some stuff to put up there. Jorge: And I want to make a plug for your music as well. Matt: Oh yeah. Thanks! On my website there are links to my music projects. But I have, I have kind of three active projects right now. One is called New Tendencies, which is actually named after an Eastern European art movement from the sixties to the late seventies that was one of the first kind of computational art groups. So yeah, New Tendencies is kind of my more experimental music. I have a group called Soft Thoughts, which is kind of an ambient, soundscape kind of thing with two other musicians. And then I just started doing something I haven't done in a long time, but I started making, kind of like old school, minimal techno again, under the name Ma, M-A, and that's also on Bandcamp. But there's links to all these things on my website, or you can find them on Bandcamp, some of it's on Spotify, et cetera, but a lot of it's not. A lot of it's just on Bandcamp. Jorge: Well. Fantastic. I will include all of those in the show notes. It was such a pleasure having you on, Matt. Matt: Oh, I always love our conversations and I'm happy to talk anytime.

 Determine which clients will actually allow you to meet your freelancing goals Understand what makes a client a great fit for your lifestyle goals Learn how to target clients that are within your sphere of influence take life far easier for yourself by targeting clients that are in fact reachable by you Resources/Links: Your FREE Ideal Client Worksheet: Download it Here: https://www.freelancetransformation.com/leadsology Summary Why do so many of us work crazy hours yet struggle to earn enough? The answer isn't just charging more. It's about finding the right clients. Matt Inglot is the founder of Tilted Pixel, an agency he transformed from an 80 to 20 hours a week after discovering he was targeting the WRONG clients. In this episode, Matt shares how he helps coaches, freelancers, and boutique agency owners on how to identify their ideal clients, build a business around their dream lifestyle and living the same. Check out these episode highlights: 01:15 – Matt's ideal client: "My ideal client is the freelancers and boutique agency owners who are looking for more clients. So, we're talking graphic designers, marketers, writers, programmers, people in creative fields basically are really good match." 01:36 – Problem Matt helps solve: "I helped them find clients and specifically how to find high-value clients. So, the kind of clients that are going to be able to pay you extremely premium rates, and even more importantly clients that are going to work with you for years. And those are kind of clients that allow you to get to that six-figure income and then beyond." 02:22 – Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Matt: "So, the big one is that you're overworked and somehow, you're also underpaid." 03:39 What are some of the common mistakes that folks make before finding Matt and his solution?: "So, the biggest one is that they assume that the problem that they're having is finding clients. And that the solution to that problem is they just got to keep trying different tactics that promise to find them, clients, until they find one that works." 06:06 – Matt's Valuable Free Action(VFA): Take a step back and start thinking about who an amazing client is for you. 07:13 – Matt's Valuable Free Action(VFR): Your FREE Ideal Client Worksheet: Download it Here: https://www.freelancetransformation.com/leadsology Tweetable Takeaways from this Episode: “The clients that are willing to pay for your services are the ones where you can deliver a lot of value to.”-@mattinglot Click To Tweet Transcript (Note, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast) Tom Poland: 0:09 Hello everyone, a very warm welcome to another edition of Marketing The Invisible. My name is Tom Poland, joined today by Matt Inglot. Matt, good day, welcome, and where you hanging out? Matt Inglot 0:20 I'm in Calgary, and beautiful and currently snowy, Canada. Tom Poland: 0:25 Oh, fantastic. So, you got snow in Canada there and we've got sunshine and beaches here in Australia. Folks, for those of you, don't know, Matt, he is the founder of Tilted Pixel. It's an agency he transformed from working in 80 hours a week to 20 hours a week. Is that right, Matt? Matt Inglot 0:43 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Tom Poland: 0:44 After, and this is an intro to our subject after he discovered that he was actually targeting th...

Good morning everybody! I was on with Ken and Matt. We had a good discussion about The Iowa Caucus app fiasco, Business Email Compromise, and Deep Fakes what it is, who is at risk and what we can do about it. I went into detail about Passwords and Password Managers and even two-factor authentication and why you need to use them. So here we go with Ken and Matt. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig The problem we see this daily when I get notices from the FBI. It all boils down to personal hygiene, just keeping your data reasonably safe on your part. Craig Hi, everybody, Craig Peterson here. It is Wednesday morning, and that means I was, of course, on with Ken and Matt. We had quite a little discussion because I had provided them with eight different articles. All of them were about major security problems this week. That's why we got into precisely what you can do to get yourself to the 95 percentile when it comes to keeping your account safe online. So here we go with Ken and Matt. Ken It's time to talk to Craig Peterson, our tech guru. He joins us now. As always, at this time, to talk about what's happening in the world of technology. Craig, How are you this morning? Craig Hi gentlemen, good morning. How about those Iowa caucuses? Did they try out the app beforehand? Ken Of course, that is an app that I think Hillary controlled. Craig Yes, the rumors are flying because in fact and ex-staffers of Hillary Clinton, Matt yes, yes. Craig So um, you have, I mean, story after story after story about this thing about Pegasus, and then you have this travel act coming online in the gap. Microsoft Excel security alert. Matt, Should we just stop using computers completely? Craig Oh, man. Well, good. You know it. I have thought about this a lot. What do we do? I think we've got an enormous problem. Here because it's almost like overload, right? Where every week there's new, there are new hits on us. Got Evil Corp. I don't know, did you watch it? Where's it called with Malik Mr. Robot? With one Malik, right or Yeah, that's the guy's name, an actor. Ken Anyways, or do you know? Matt What is it? Rami Malik's Craig Rami. Oh, Robbie, man, I thought the first name was Malik. Oh, yeah. Rami Oh, yes, yes. Joe, he's in this. He's a hacker right. He's all in his head. Weird things are happening, but he's battling Evil Corp., And there's an evil corporation in the news. And it's using Microsoft Excel to deliver this payload this nasty thing. So what are people supposed to do can and it's, are we getting burned out? Just like Nancy Pelosi rips up the speech and you just roll your eyes because it's yet another partisan thing. It is, however, another week with more hacks. But what I think it boils down to isn't just not using computers first of all use them safely. You know the stuff I would say your mother told you, but of course, she did. Because this is this has been many years in the coming. But the stuff you know, to use different passwords on different websites. Use a password manager like one password or LastPass the necessary things, and it's like you don't want to get coronavirus while swash your hands and don't cut your face and conference knees into your elbow. Basic stuff, and you know what the problem can we see real, and I see this every day I'm getting notices from the FBI, but it all boils down to personal Hi Jean, just keeping your data reasonably safe on your part. You know, use a few different email addresses. Don't always use the same learn, have a Google address, but have a couple of others as well. Don't use your business computer for personal things. Don't think of VPN is going to save you because of VPN does minimal things and can make your business network even less safe. Yes, I said it less reliable using the VPN. And what we see this week too, is a vast right. You know, my opinion about antivirus software? Yeah, it is zero percent effective against modern attacks zero percent. And a vast came out this week. And it turns out, and they were selling arrows. Everything you were doing online everything to the highest bidder millions of dollars, so you searched on Google thoroughly, Avast sold it to whoever wanted to pay for it. You went to a porn site Avast told them, anybody, who pays for it all about it. You did anything on your web browser, anything on your computer because remember your antivirus software has access to everything on your computer, have vastly sold that information. So I've said forever. And Matt, I heard you chime in there. But how many times have you even said we are the product when it comes to sites like Facebook? Correct? Ken Yes. Anytime is the answer to your question. Craig Yeah, exactly. And what we're talking about here is free VPN. And free. Free websites aren't free Avast. Where's anti-malware software is not free. So This is stuff I, you know, can I think we've mentioned a million times, and I keep, I hate to flog a dead horse, right. Matt We like horses. Craig But we just have to be more careful. And I bring these things up every week to try and just try and drive the point home. We got to be more cautious because now we're seeing warnings coming out again from the FBI about these deep fakes, which we've talked about before. And I don't remember I know I had this in my stack of stuff last year, last quarter last year. Still, there was a company that had been bought by a German company. The CFO got a call from his boss over in the German company, telling him to wire funds over to the German company, right? He provided him all the information. He'd met this guy in Germany before he talked to him on the phone. He got the instructions, and he did it. It is a form of deep fakes that get used in these business scams. Where it sounds like the CEO. It is not just an email that comes from the CEO's hacked mailbox. It sounds like the CEO in the video, and now we see where it looks like it too. They can't do that live yet, but it's coming. So everybody listening takes a few of just a few minutes a day and start going in changing your account password just the simplest thing you can do it are either you guys using password managers right now. Matt Frankly, No, I'm not. Ken I don't know I like to discount all the advice given to me by Craig Peterson. I have not really no. Okay, right now, go online, sorry, something comes up on my computer say do you want me to save this password? I suppose that's not a password manager, right? You're right, man, because it's your browser giving your password to Google. I trust them. Craig Go to one password dot com right now. The digit one password.com. Check it out. I want you to do this. What does it do? What it does is it ties into your browser, so it can fill out the form for you when that browser is asking you to log in. It provides the latest newest technology that's coming out that's replacing passwords slowly but surely. And it will generate passwords for you to share passwords, multi-word passwords, so one password calm now what I love about it is it works for me. It works for my family, and it works for my business, so it has multiple vaults that you can share. Because here's your next problem. What do I do? In the past, my problem was remembering the password, and once I remember it, then it changes. Craig Yes, you remember one password, and that's the one password. Now you can I have before you go any further corrections? Ken Can I ask one question, though, using a service like that the one password, if you will, what is protecting those institutions from hacking and all of your passwords getting stolen? I mean, how does that not occur at some point when some enterprise with hacker decides that they'd like to have your access to everything you own? Craig Well, one password does not keep any of your passwords unencrypted. And it uses a high level like Pentagon plus level security for all your passwords, so they never leave your computer in what's called cleartext. So there is no way for one password to get Adam last passes the other one to look at Last pass, they have a cheaper version. That's quite good as well. But hopefully, that answers your question. They never get your passwords. They're only on your local computer. You can share them between all of your computers using like iCloud or Dropbox or many other things. But they are always heavily encrypted, which is phenomenal. It is one of the simplest and best things you can do. Because having a complex password that's different on every site number by complex, I don't mean upper-lower digits, special characters, or anything I mean like a 20-30 character long password which LastPass will generate for you so well one password. Having a password like that makes it almost impossible for the bad guys to break into your town. They're not even going to bother while they might be Try, right, but it'll take some more than 100 years to crack your passwords. And they're only stored in your machine, and encrypted, it is easy to use. And with your MacBook Pro that you have can, you can use one password. And when you go to a website, you can say, Okay, give me give him to give that site my login to one password. And with your MacBook Pro, it'll do the fingerprint if you wanted to, instead of you having to type in your one password. There are some helpful integrations, and it's going to work on your smartphones. It's available for Android and Windows as well as Macs and iOS. But guys, you know, this is something you have to do. So I'm going to next week. I'm going to ask you whether or not you had it, and you got it done. Matt So what's the name of this thing again? Craig The one I like best is one password is just the digit one password pa ss w or d dot com Ken Come on, you don't use that one point, to be honest with you. Craig The other one, I like his last pass, you'll find it lastpass.com. But I prefer one password personally. So get it done to change one or two passwords. The way I started doing this years ago when I started using password managers as to when I went to a site to type in my password, I type it in, and I'd immediately go into one password and create a new password for that site. And then, once you've done that, start using two-factor authentication. And one password has that built-in as well. Where it generates a code. Have you seen these little things before where every 30 seconds the code changes, you know? So it'll let you do that, if you o do those two things, you're almost wholly guaranteed never get hacked. It's that simple. Two-factor authentication, one password with a different password for Every site and I only have to remember one password. Ken Yes, exactly. Okay, peace. Matt So Well, I think I'd add that one, check. Ken Anyway, that is your update, ladies gentlemen from Craig Peterson, our tech guru. He joins us every Wednesday at this time to go over what's happening in the world of technology. We appreciate it. As always, Craig and we will talk to you again next week. Craig Gentlemen, take care. Bye-bye. Matt Excellent. All right. Well, why don't we go back into the newsroom? Transcribed by https://otter.ai --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

So here is interview of Maxbounty CEO from AWE Berlin 2017 and seriously I would say Matt is coolest CEO I have ever met, he is so calm and gentle person. The journey he had shared in this video is truly amazing how they work hard and how they making huge money with 25+ employees only and they are really making tons of money as compared to company with 200+ employees. With just limited no of employees they are breaking the myths and creating huge impact in ad network industry. What a sheer pleasure to interview Matt :) So share this video and tag your friends :)

Good morning everybody! I was on with Ken and Matt per usual their base is expanding which is really kind of cool. They are adding stations and things which is quite exciting. Anyhow, I had a good conversation with them about our privacy security or what to do about it and what's in the news right now that the statistics are really getting scary frankly. Especially when I when it comes to small businesses, and of course, we discussed a little bit about what they are doing, what their bosses are doing over there at the Portland radio group, and what maybe you shouldn't be doing if you're that de facto IT person in your organization. I think what the Portland radio group is doing is a great step and it's going to make a huge difference for them. These and more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Related Articles: The Future Communication Means No Phones Maintaining Privacy Means Obfuscating Online Security Answers More Than Three-Quarters of US Businesses Are CyberAtttack Targets Keeping Windows Safe Means Patching, Patching, Patching and More Patching --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Good morning everybody! Craig Peterson here. I was on with Ken and Matt per usual their base is expanding which is really kind of cool. They are adding stations and things, which is quite exciting. Anyhow, I had a good conversation with them about our privacy security or what to do about it and what's in the news right now that the statistics are really getting scary frankly. Especially when I when it comes to small businesses, and of course, we discussed a little bit about what they are doing, what their bosses are doing over there at the Portland radio group, and what maybe you shouldn't be doing if you're that de facto IT person in your organization. I think what the Portland radio group is doing is a great step and it's going to make a huge difference for them. Matt Gagnon  Gentlemen, it's his time once again, Craig Peterson tech guru extraordinaire, and host of the Craig Peterson show on this Very Radio Network joins us now as he always does at this time on Wednesdays what's happening, Craig? Craig Hey, good morning. I don't get it here. The Red Sox are not in the playoffs now. But you guys are saying. Ken Altschuler That is correct, sir. That is correct. I did, however, win the World Series last year. So Craig it's okay. Isn't it kind of a weird thing, though, because you'd think if they were such a powerhouse last year, how come they didn't even make it into the playoffs? You know, I'm not a sports guy. You can tell. Matt  I could give you lots of answers. But we're not here to hear me talk about baseball our way. Ken Would you rather talk about Jethro Tull? Matt As long as that conversation could go?  Ken Do you agree with me that the Jethro Tull should absolutely be in the rock Hall of Fame and it's a travesty that they're not? Craig I absolutely agree. I don't get it. Why are they putting country music people in and other Ken  Whitney Houston, Whitney Houston, Craig Whitney Houston. I can see like some of the blues and Some of the old some of that eventually turned into rock and roll that makes sense. I can see that one. Well, you know, pop music gab Jessel told definitely, but anyway. Ken Yeah. So I was gonna ask you a question about lying on your password recovery questions but before we but but I want you to explain to me how AI systems are going to cause phones to disappear. Craig Yeah, this isn't going to be an eventual type of thing. What what's happening is we're putting microphones everywhere. They're in our cars. Our cars now of course have built into the many of them, you know, Wi Fi, it's time into the cellular data network, where we've started to see the rollout of 5g, which is really designed to allow pretty much everything ever manufactured to be on the Internet at very, very high speeds at very low cost. So what we're going to see over the course of the next five years, certainly the next 10 Yours is there will be internet available everywhere via every device you can think of. You know, we've got Levi's with their trucker jacket that has built in internet. Basically, it has remote controls and things, but right into it. So this is what the eventuality is now, tie that into artificial intelligence, and tie all of that into the ability for these systems to understand what we're saying. Now, in reality, it's going to take a while before they really understand it, but they are pretty darn good right now just talking to Alexa. We know that. So put all of this into a big pot and stir it up. Since it's Halloween. We'll call it a big cauldron. And stir it all up. You're going to end up with these artificial intelligence systems that are also just continually getting better and better. With the internet connectivity everywhere microphones everywhere, so to the point where you won't carry Any sort of a device that you would identify as a phone, you might have a little pin on your lapel that talks to you when you talk to it, etc. That might be a little projectors, here, there and everywhere so you can see things as kind of a screen. By the eventually this is all going to be tied right into our brains, it's going to be going into our optic nerves. We are going to become a little bored is when it kind of boils down to But before that, we're just going to be talking to devices and having them read our messages and send our messages and use it as as our communicator with no more phones. Matt We are talking to Craig Peterson, our tech guru who joins us now as he always does on Wednesdays at this time. Craig they force us here at the WGA and morning news to watch these security videos trying desperately to drag the employees not just this radio station but all Portland radio group radio stations. into being more secure with their email and stuff. Clicking on those things that say that their downloads and downloading them onto your computer and having a virus and so on and so forth. I believe that we have to watch those videos because more people are falling for it and more attacks are happening from outside. And this is a problem that's getting worse. Am I wrong about that? Am I right about that? Are we seeing a rise in email attacks? Craig No, you're absolutely right. In fact, we'll be talking a little bit more about that next week, because there's some new statistics are just coming out right now on that. But we're seeing right now that 76% of us businesses have been attacked, they've experienced a cyber attack in the last year. 76% is absolutely crazy how many organizations have been attacked and 63% of businesses reported the loss of some type of corporate or customer information in the last 12 months. It's absolutely huge and, and frankly, too many businesses are ostrich, ostrich. You're such a work. They're sticking their heads into sand, right? They're saying they're gonna it's not going to happen to me. Now bigger businesses, when you get out of the SMB space, the bigger ones over 500 employees are taking this seriously. They are doing the right things. They're doing what the Portland radio group is doing. They're making sure their employees are trained in what to watch for because most of these bad really bad cyber attacks that have happened besides ransomware have happened because of things employees do and have done and that includes opening emails. So the bad guys are good. They've come a long way from the days when it was you know And my heart goes out to that poor Nigerian prince who lost all his money. And all he needs is Us Bank Account to transfer the money through. And all you have to do is you know, keep a little commission but a lot of use your bank account. Today what they're doing is they are breaking into websites for businesses. And they're stealing all of the data they can get their Well, some of the data that they're stealing and they're going after are your password recovery questions. And they can from that find out all kinds of information. Now this goes back to of course, our friend Sarah Palin. Remember this back in 2008, a 20 year old college student broke into her Yahoo account and stole a bunch of emails from there. How does he do it? While he googled her password recovery question answers. He found out what her zip code was her birthday people will you The name of their dog, their child's birthday wedding date, social security number, but use all of these things to break into account. So the bottom line here is Portland Raider groups doing the right thing by making you watch videos. They should make you watch my videos because they're much more interesting. But, but it is the right thing. Because that is the primary way your email that the bad guys are using to manipulate you by using things like your password recovery questions, to be able to get into your accounts and it's a very, very bad thing. And that's what I'm saying right now. Everybody, you should lie on your bank password recovery questions absolutely should lie on them. When it says what high school did you graduate from? Makeup something don't just use Scooby Doo his high school graduation. But you know poolesville that's not a great one. Completely make something up what high school? Did you graduate from college ended software? And you have to remember all of these answers because you shouldn't be using different answers on every website. So put them all into a password management management program. That's what I do. Use different password recovery questions every time. You can get my password recovery. I have a 10 page thing on passwords. Okay. 10 page special report. So it uncovers password recovery stuff, but what software should you buy? Which ones are free? What should you do? But this is all part of the same thing. And you can get that by the way, just like Craig peterson.com slash password password and get that password recovery thing. But this is complicated. You need to do training with your employees and email. According to the FBI. His latest report is the number one way the bad guys are stealing from our businesses. Matt Wouldn't it be easier to just not have computers anymore?  Ken Seriously, it would be what would it be like if there was no internet? I was a very good typewriter. I mean, I could type again, if I had to. Yeah. People have to use a phone. Although they were scams that way too. Is it done? Okay. Craig Peterson joins us every Wednesday at 738. And you can hear him on Saturday from one to three on WGAN. Matt So 76% of us businesses have experienced a cyber attack in the past year. Craig Yeah, definitely. You know, it ties all in and it's it's very, very, very big. The SMB space is the space of going after that small medium businesses. Some people call the mass and the, you know, small medium enterprises. And the reason they're going after these smaller businesses, which are basically the under 500 employees, isn't because necessarily that's where the money is, but it's Because that's where they are least prepared for the attack, they're least ready for it. And they leave their money laying around. I picked up some new clients that have had their entire operating account stolen can imagine that you rely on your operating account to pay your bills to pay the vendors, maybe you are using it for payroll as well. And all of a sudden, it's empty. That is a killer for businesses that especially small medium businesses, and so now you're stuck you're in big trouble and they're going after them because they are not ready. Now the some of the stats here also are amazing that it okay 76% of cyber businesses or businesses that cyber attack and 63% of them lost their intellectual property as we mentioned, or customer information the last 12 months but those businesses 63% 50% of them will be out of business in six months. So it's 63% over 76%. And they take 50% of that they will be out of business within six months. And the really scary part is of those somewhere around 30% file for bankruptcy. The week it happens, because they realize that they just can't pay their bills. They're incomplete trouble. So everybody, do what Ken and Matt have been doing. Make sure your employees get training on email, email handling. If you are a home user, a small office, Home Office retiree, make sure you are very careful, basically, nowadays never clicked on anything in the emails is that one of the popular things right now is they're trying to get you to do something. So they'll save things like hey, we've got video of you visiting a porn site. And here's your password. Here's your username and be Cuz you're reusing passwords, it is one of your password. So anyways, I know we're out of time here. But this I can't stress this enough because I've seen so many people, it just breaks my heart that that aren't ready for this. If you're a small business, you have to address this. And you got to take some time and maybe one of the ways to start, if you're interested. Grab it right now, which is Craig peterson.com slash password. That's a great place to start playing some training, do it with your employees and, and protect your business. It's your investment. And if you're the defacto IT person in your organization, you're going to get blamed when this happens to you. Matt Well, on that cheery note, ladies, gentlemen, Craig Peterson, our tech guru who has been joining us as he always does on Wednesday morning is is done for the day. So thank you, Craig. Appreciate it as always, and we will talk again next week. Craig, Hey guys, thanks a lot. Alright. Matt So we're going to take a quick break we'll be back on the other side of the break coming up next on WGAN Transcribed by https://otter.ai   --- More stories and tech updates at: www.craigpeterson.com Don't miss an episode from Craig. Subscribe and give us a rating: www.craigpeterson.com/itunes Follow me on Twitter for the latest in tech at: www.twitter.com/craigpeterson For questions, call or text: 855-385-5553

ALPS Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte sits down with Matt Sims, co-founder of Standpoint Decision Support Inc. to discuss risk assessment and some new technology that is helping lawyers maximize billable hours, save time, and reduce risks to their practice. Transcript:   MARK BASSINGTHWAIGHTE: Good morning. It is a beautiful day here in Big Sky Country. I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager with ALPS and welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Today I am very pleased to have as my guest Matt Sims, and Matt is a co-founder with a company called Stand Point Decisions. MARK:                And Matt and I met not too long ago up in Vancouver, at an ABA conference. And we just got to talking about risk management. And Matt has a really gone in a very, very interesting direction. So today we're going to be talking about risk management, Stand Point and a few other things. Before we jump into this, Matt, can I have you take a few minutes and just fill our listeners in, in terms of your background? MATT SIMS:          Yeah, certainly. Well, thanks. Thanks very much for having me on the podcast today, Mark. Really appreciate it. And yeah, so Stand Point and where did we come from? We've been ... there's two of us, Steve Wilson, Dr. Steve Wilson and myself, and we've been working together for just over 10 years. And Stand Point is sort of a coming together of two worlds. MATT: One is Steve's world of quantitative data analysis, and he's got a Ph.D. in quantitative data analysis, and approached me one day about 10 years ago and said, "Hey, I'm seeing some other applications for the work that I do." And he wanted to get together with somebody who had some of the business side and the marketing and communication side of things. MATT: And so we teamed up and our very first customer was the Law Society of BC here in British Columbia where we're based. And we knew nothing about the area of law or regulation, but this was our first contract. And lo and behold, 10 years later, it seems that we found ourselves a bit of a niche. Because we've only ever worked with those in the legal profession, and primarily legal regulators up to this point. So, kind of an accident that we fell into this space. But that's how we are. And 10 years later we're still at it. MARK:  Fascinating, fascinating. And what are the backgrounds ... You've shared a little bit about Steve, what's your background here? MATT: Yeah, my background has primarily been in technology. So I've worked for a number of large technology firms, everything from network services to hardware. And then over the last 10 years, I got into the software development space, and my focus has primarily been on management operations, and then definitely in the sales and marketing aspects of it as well. MARK:  Okay. All right. And can we talk a little bit about, what are the problems that Stand Point really is trying to solve? I think both historically and where we're at 10 years down the road now. MATT: Yeah. Yeah. So 10 years ago, the problems we got into starting to solve, were really not much different than the problems many of these same organizations have today. Which is, we've got a bunch of data on hand. We have some strategic decisions or policy decisions to make, and we need to somehow inform these decisions with the data that we have. And sometimes that's a bit of a daunting task, especially in today's world when there's just so much data. MATT: You know, you've got spreadsheets, you've got experts in the room who have inputs on things. And so, basically, we were trying to pull together all of these various sources of data and people and help them solve problems. And some of the earlier problems were trying to understand complaint data. That was the big one. So regulators are usually the receiver of complaints from the public. MATT: And if there's an issue with a lawyer, and they wanted to try and understand, what are the root causes of these complaints, and is there a way to, using analytics, to get ahead of them a little bit? And proactively get out there and try and deliver resources that can help to bring those complaints down. MATT: So yeah, the early days we're looking at complaint data. We've looked at program data to see if certain courses or programs are being effective in what they hope they might do. And then of late, we've been getting into self-assessments. And so, trying to understand how lawyers are self-assessing themselves against a model of professionalism. MARK:  Yeah. And that's where you and I really got into some interesting conversations. And so, how does the platform ... How have you moved past Stand Point and gotten into this consulting piece, the lawyer self-evaluation? Can you describe where we're going with that? MATT: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the first five or six years, we were just primarily doing one-off consulting projects, doing data analysis on those. And then at one point we thought, "You know, we've got a lot of experience here. We really now understand that the typical types of datasets that regulators and legal organizations are using. And we understand a lot of the problems they're trying to solve with that data. MATT: So what happens if we put that onto a platform and try to automate some of the analysis and the reporting so that we could deliver solutions faster to our customers, and also solutions that were more scalable?" Because when you're a consultant, you're only as good as you can run, as fast as you can run. But when you embed some of that knowledge into a platform, now you can scale it up. MATT: And so that's how we transitioned from just pure consulting and professional services into more of a platform. And then our very first customer on that platform was the Colorado Supreme Court, which was rolling out a voluntary self-assessment program to the lawyers of the state of Colorado. And so that's where we got our start about three years ago now with the platform itself. MARK:  And if this is Avvy Pro that we're talking about, or that's the next step? MATT: That's right. No, Avvy Pro is the name of the platform, yeah. MARK:  Okay. And you know, when I think about ... Matt, for many years as you're aware, I've done a lot of personal consulting if you will, going in and visiting law firms all over the country. And doing what we would call risk visits, and have been in literally well over 1200 firms now over the years. MARK:  But we got to a point ... You see, this is a very expensive service. It really is. To do it one firm at a time sending somebody out in terms of the travel, it just, it doesn't scale up very well. And what I like about what you're doing is, you're taking this much, much further, and can take the risk management processes that I've been doing over the years, and bring it to the masses. MARK:  That said, there are all kinds of products in the marketplace. In terms of even just Cloud-based case management systems, in and of them of themselves, they can be from an insurance perspective, a very effective risk management tool. What is the value of Avvy Pro, how do you see this defining yourself? What's the niche here that you're going after? MATT: Yeah, no, that's a good question. And you know, I think it's squarely in the same camp that you've been working on for all these years, Mark, which is risk reduction. MARK:  Okay. MATT: And we've looked at multiple the types of value that the program provides. So one of the things the platform can provide for a lawyer is a fast way to determine what CPD, at first, they want to look at for the year. So doing a self-assessment results in a report that actually gives you your areas of priority, and it can even start to serve up some of the CLE resources that you might want to get into. MATT: So we see it as a time saver for lawyers. And we know that lawyers are very focused on saving time because they need to maximize the billable hours. And so the time savings is one thing, but at the end of it all, it always seems to come back to risk. Right? And how can we reduce risk to a practice, whether that's for a firm or for an individual attorney? MATT: And so at the end of the day, that's what we're delivering to lawyers and firms out there is a reduction in risk. And it's quantifiable, in the sense that there was the study out of New South Wales from the University of Melbourne, where they looked at a group of lawyers who took a professional self-assessment. And they studied this group of lawyers over a period of time, and they found that those lawyers had a 60% less chance of receiving a complaint than the lawyers in the group who hadn't taken the self-assessment. And so this has become the genesis of a lot of these PMBR activities from some of the regulators across the country and has really shown the light on the fact that you can reduce risks to your practice and into your firm immediately just by doing a self-assessment. MATT: And the interesting thing, Mark, is that it's not necessarily got to do with the scores you give yourself. In other words, whether you score high or low on your self-assessment, it doesn't really matter. It's just the process of going through that, which increases self-awareness and changes behavior. And the numbers show that you have a much less likely a chance of having a complaint if you've done one of these self-assessments. So, that's really the core value of what we're trying to do. MARK:  Well, that's really interesting. What I'm thinking about as you share this, is sort of how cybersecurity education is evolving. And as you're well aware, I'm sure, the weak link in cybersecurity is the users in any law firm, any business, just due to social engineering. And there are some similar studies there that if you educate, appropriate behaviors or more responsible behaviors occur early on in the process. But it drops off over time. MARK:  So I guess, sort of thinking about that, if I become a user of Avvy Pro, do I have the ability to, I don't know, keep this fresh in front of me? Is this kind of like a one-off, once and done thing, or is it something I can come back to over time, share with others in my firm? See where I'm going in terms of ... What's the model? I'm just trying to understand the model. MATT: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. And so yeah, even though there is a one-off benefit to taking a self-assessment, you're absolutely right that there is a tail off of that benefit over time. And so the idea is that you revisit this, right? And the whole idea of self-assessing too is so that you can establish a benchmark for yourself. And ultimately, what you want to be able to do is move that mark forward, right? You want to have a continuous improvement cycle happening year over year as a professional. MATT: Because the self-assessment I took five years ago shouldn't be where I am today as a professional. I mean, we always want to continue to improve. And so the idea would be to revisit your self-assessment every six months, every year. MATT: What the right interval is, we're not exactly sure. But we do know that coming back to it and reassessing is definitely a way of refreshing on this. And then, what happens is you reset some of your benchmarks and your scores, and then the CLE resources that the platform provides change up based on what your priorities are this year. Because they might be different from last year, right? MATT: So yeah, continuous improvement is something that definitely needs to be looked at. And we actually did a study with a regulator on one of their programs. They had a small firm course that they put out, and they just didn't know if it was helping. And so we analyze some of the data on the lawyers who had taken that course, and it was similar to the self-assessment. MATT: Whereas they had seen an immediate value, but we had a five year study period and the tail off was very evident in the numbers. That the benefit of that program had reduced over those five years. So the whole message is, yeah, you've got to keep at it. You can't just stop. It's not like exercising, right? You don't go to the gym once or twice and then you're done. You've got to keep going back. MARK:  Again, just to be clear for our listeners, you've talked about going in, doing a self-assessment, getting a score, and awareness can make a real difference. I assume that there's more to this than just sort of scoring yourself. That if I do get a low score, perhaps in, I don't know, client intake or calendaring or something like this, and I assume these are the types of procedures that you're looking at. Are there resources? MARK:  I mean, what's the ultimate benefit to me if I become a client and get in, and go through this evaluation? What do I get for the effort? MATT: Right. And so yeah, you've nailed something there, interesting. Because one of the things we observed over the years is that there is no shortage of information available to lawyers out there. I mean there's websites and PDFs and courses, and there are so many resources available. What we saw was, typically the problem is that people don't know where to start. So they think they might need help in communications, for example, or calendaring or client intake like you said. But trying to go through and weed through and find the right resources is sometimes a bit of and challenge, and a time-consuming effort. MARK:  Yes, I can relate to this. MATT: Yeah, so what we are trying to do is make that jump between that gap between my self-assessment and the resources that are available to me out there. And so what we've done is, again, we take that self-assessment and let's say you score yourself low on calendaring. The platform takes that low score on calendaring and then matches that, algorithmically, to the available resources in the platform library. MATT: And so the resources in the library are tagged according to their content. And so, your self-assessment will pull up a bunch of calendaring resources. Maybe it's a YouTube video, maybe it's a course, maybe it's a quick blog post from somebody on calendaring. But it will serve you the resources that are most applicable to the needs you've identified, which we think really starts to, again, save time for lawyers so that they're not out there Google searching their way around, trying to find things. MARK:  Right. And in my mind, this is what really differentiates you from a lot of other types of platforms and systems, procedures, products available for lawyers to help in their practice. This goes in a completely different direction. I really like the idea. Again, this is risk management for the masses in terms of really scaling it up, so that any lawyer can ... Or I assume from an administrator or whoever wants access to this within a law firm can sign up. Very, very good. MARK:  What's the future? Where do you see this going, short term and long term? MATT: Well, short term we're just trying to get the platform exposed to as many jurisdictions as possible. So we've got some good conversations happening out there right now with a bunch of areas. Typically, we have delivered the platform through a legal organization as opposed to direct to lawyers. And so it's been delivered by a regulator or a bar association. Or potentially an insurer like yourself. MATT: And then yeah, future, we've got lots of other ideas around the platform and how we can improve efficiency. And again, basically, reduce risk and save time for lawyers. One of the things we've been looking at, which we're really kind of curious about, is whether we can improve the CLE accreditation process, and collecting credits and submitting them to your regulator. Because as you know, lawyers need to need to have their number of credits every year. And it's different for every jurisdiction. MATT: And there's this ... If you look at the way the credits go, the regulator has the bag of credits, and they assign or permit certain service providers or education providers to give those credits out to lawyers who have come in and taken their courses. Right? MARK:  Right. MATT: And then the lawyers take those credits and then what do they do? They give them right back to the regulator at some point and say, "I got my 10 credits for the year, I got my 20 credits for the year." MATT: Well, I was looking at that and I thought, "This is like a currency system, right?" It's basically a currency that comes from the regulator to the CLE provider, and then to the lawyer and then back to the regulator, and the regulator being the central bank. And so I've got some background in the blockchain space, and I looked at this and I thought, this is a solution, or the blockchain is a solution to taking that manual process of affidavits and sending PDFs, and yes, I was in that course on this date. And digitizing it with a token, a digital token. And so, one of the things we want to be able to do is say, okay, if you come into Avvy Pro, you do your self-assessment, you consume some resources which are CLE accredited. Let's make that real easy for you to get that credit from your regulator. And so that's their future vision, is to try and take this thing and then add on functionality. MARK:  Yeah, I am loving this. Because over the years, trying to keep the manual sending stuff in and the states, if they're different, it's just a headache. But that's solving a good problem. I like that. Matt, it's really ... I so enjoy visiting with you and learning about all that's going on here. If any of our folks in the listening audience would like any additional information about Stand Point or Avvy Pro, is there a way they might be able to contact you? MATT: Yeah, certainly. So, individual lawyers who are curious about the platform and would like to try and take the self-assessment themselves can go to avvy.pro. And so that's A-V-V-Y dot pro, and they can jump in there and try it out, and have a look at what it delivers. And standpointdecisions.com is the professional service's website. And that would be for organizations, firms, bars, and regulators who'd be interested in finding out more about the work that we've done in the past. MARK:  Yes. Yeah. And I assume you are interested, if a state wanted to look at doing something like this, similar to the colorized supreme court model that you share, I assume that that's something you guys are still looking at as well. This isn't all about moving into just the individual lawyer space. Am I correct about that? MATT: Absolutely. Yeah. No, absolutely. It all usually starts with the jurisdiction itself. And then they deliver access to the platform to their lawyers. MARK:  Got It. Very good. Well, thank you. I appreciate your taking the time to visit. It's always a pleasure. And to all of you listening, I hope you found something of value today and if you have any thoughts about folks you'd like to hear from in the future or a topic you'd like to hear discussed, please don't hesitate to reach out to me. You can reach me at mbass@alpsnet.com again, mbass@alpsnet.com. Thanks for listening folks. Have a good one. Bye-bye.      

   Episode #1 Description   Welcome to “What the Lyric?!?” In this episode, we bring our favorite bad lyrics from Pop Music (c. 2016-2019). One song from an artist who desperately wants to fix her “Reputation” with some cringe-y spoken-word lyrics. And another from a Brit whose time would best be spent learning to “let go” of the booze.   Transcript of Episode #1   Becky: Welcome to What the Lyric?!? -- the podcast that confirms...yeah, that actually made it to radio.   Matt: Is it recording?   Becky: Oh now we’re recording. Oh fun!   Matt: Oh yay!   Becky: Hello everybody and welcome to What the Lyric?!? where we talk about how much we love awful, awful lyrics. A little bit about me: I’m Becky. I will listen to anything once, and over and over again if it’s really bad. And then there’s Matthew over here, my partner in crime…   Matt: You know, honestly, if you had to summarize my musical tastes, the best way to look at it would be to say that my go-to karaoke song is “Promiscuous” by Nelly Furtado ft. Timbaland.   Becky: So you know we have good taste. That goes without saying. How this whole podcast is going to work is...We have one song each that {...} we get to pick off the theme of the episode. Today’s theme is Pop Music from 2016 to 2019. We get to do a dramatic reading, and after the dramatic reading, we talk about why the lyrics are SO bad and why we had to call it out. All right, so starting first is...Matthew.   Matt: Okay.   Becky: Get ready.   Matt: Definitely get ready for this. So I chose a song...just to give you a little context for this: it comes from, I believe, August of 2017. So put yourself in that state of mind. It’s a year after the election; things are terrible...still.   Becky: I was probably high.   Matt: I mean, weren’t we all?   Becky: Yeah.   Matt: It is Seattle.   Becky: You’d have to be.   Matt: And so this person has decided to reshape their image and, you know, I’ll just let the lyrics speak for themselves:   “I don’t like your little games Don’t like your tilted stage The role you made me play Of the fool, no, I don’t like you I don’t like your perfect crime How you laugh when you lie You said the gun was mine Isn’t cool, no, I don’t like you (oh!)”   Matt: And that’s the first stanza.   Becky: Okay, so I’m guessing… Who’d be packing heat in 2017, you said? August?   Matt: Uh huh. Changing the image!   Becky: Could be… Oh! Changing the image? Only because of the changing image thing, that would be Taylor Swift?   Matt: Correct.   Becky: Oh the Swifties.   Matt: But do you...do you know the song?   Becky: Oh Jesus! Is it that...It’s the one where she then breaks it down and says, “Oh, Taylor Swift isn’t here right now. Because she’s dead!” Something along those lines? *Laughs*   Matt: This would be “Look What You Made Me Do” by Taylor Swift.   Becky: Oh yes. *Repeats the phrase “Look What You Made Me Do” twice.* Or however the rest goes.   Matt: Exactly. And really, my choice for all of the songs in this podcast are based on what I like to call “Cringecore.”   Becky: I love that. We are going to copyright that.   Matt: *Laughs* Really any songs that have lyrics that [make you go] “Oh!” You’ve heard of cringe comedy; that’s kind of how I view these lyrics.   Becky: I like it.   Matt: And specifically the -- what makes this so cringey is what you already mentioned, the, let’s find it…”I’m sorry the old Taylor can’t come to the phone right now” set to the background music of, “Ooh, look what you made me do.” “Why?” “Oh ‘cause she’s dead! Becky: The old Taylor is, like, what? 23? 24? I mean, she’s not old.   Matt: She’s got a guitar. I mean, her…   Becky: She’s country. Country Taylor.   Matt: She’s Country-Pop.   Becky: Yeah.   Matt: Don’t you remember when it was just a love song, baby?   Becky: Oh man. Oh God. Ohh...Getting a little gag reflex going.   Matt: And don’t forget the “I knew you were trouble.”   Becky: Oh is that the one with the turtle sex noise meme?  *Laughs*   Matt: *Laughs* That is exactly what that is. *Laughs*   Becky: My favorite ever!   Matt: So really Taylor...I had a lot of options, just based on Taylor, but I have to admit, the lyrics are just...a mess. Let’s keep it going. I mean, we’ve already heard the first stanza.   Becky: Oh yeah.   Matt: But then she continues to say she doesn’t like being the fool, but “[she] got smarter, [she] got harder in the nick of time.”   Becky: How does one get harder when they’re carrying their cat around everywhere? I see a lot of photos of her with her cat. Don’t get me wrong, [I’m a] crazy cat lady, but I’m not taking Kink with me...My cat’s name is Kinky Disco. I’m not taking Kink with me to the grocery store, to the gym...Okay, I don’t go to the gym, but like, I’m not taking her out on a night on the town.   Matt: Unlike Taylor Swift, which I will also say I find it interesting that for a woman whose last name is Swift, she didn’t choose “faster” for the lyric. Like, that would have made AS much sense… “But I got smarter, I got faster in the nick of time.” Okay! I’ll still take that!   Becky: She got badder? I’ve never heard her swear! I’ve never seen her not smile.   Matt: She doesn’t swear in this song either. The real question, and we can answer this question at the end of the analysis, but what, what, WHAT did we make her do? I’m just very curious.   Becky: Maybe make her carry a cat around all the time. *Laughs*   Matt: *Laughs* We did this to ourselves.   Becky: Maybe she has to date all these DJs. Maybe we forced that on her with our expectations of her music and turtle sex noises.   Matt: And her Starbucks lovers!   Becky: Oh God, that’s right.   Matt: “But honey, I rose up from the dead. I do it all the time.” Necromancer, interesting. “I’ve got a list of names and yours is in red, underlined. I check it once, then I check it twice. Oh.”   Becky: Wait, what does that mean? What are you doing? You checked it. Yup, still there.   Matt: Based on the lyrics alone, we have realized that she has gotten harder in the nick of time and also, presumably, become an elf of the Santa variety. She’s making lists; she’s checking them twice. Don’t know why she’s using a red pen.   Becky: Well it is festive. Red -- Christmas-y. Becky: See I can’t get past the “hard” part. She’s not like, all of a sudden, turned to Nicki Minaj-hard. Or like, back in the day, Lil Kim hard.   Matt: She’s not going to be Beyonce carrying around a baseball bat, breaking windows.   Becky: No, but she did bust out the band, the marching band.   Matt: Oh we can always get into that!   Becky: I saw that! I saw that!   Matt: But if that’s the case, then she still did not get harder in the nick of time because she’s still following Beyonce.   Becky: Yeah. And pink isn’t really a “hard” color for me. Like, it’s not a color I go, “Oh! I see Notorious B.I.G. is wearing pink. He’s hard.” That isn’t why I would have classified him as hard. I don’t think I’ve ever seen B.I.G. [in pink.] Maybe he did? I don’t know; I’d have to go back and look now.   Matt: *Laughs*   Becky: I feel like I’d have to look that up. *Laughs*   Matt: And then really, the rest is chorus, which in case you haven’t realized it, is just: “Ooh, look what you made me do. Look what you made me do. Look what you made me do. Look what you just made me...OOH, Look what…” Okay, I think we’ve got the idea.   Becky: I feel like someone got lazy. I feel like that happens a lot in lyrics. And that’s lazy.   Matt: Which part?   Becky: The just repeating the same line over and over and over again.   Matt: Yeah, it’s not a good look. And worse, is the next stanza:   “I don’t like your kingdom keys” Kingdom keys.   Becky: Keys? As in house keys? Car keys?   Matt: Yeah, apparently someone’s got a kingdom.   “They once belonged to me.”   Becky: Okay.   Matt: Uhhh, questions?   “You ask me for a place to sleep Locked me out and threw a feast”   And the best part of this is at the very end of the line is, “What?!” So even Taylor looked at these lyrics, “Locked me out and threw a feast...WHAT?!” And they just included it.   Becky: Yeah, they said fuck it. It’s Taylor Swift; it’s going to be huge. That’s exactly how it happened.   Matt: And ultimately, it was.   Becky: I know!   Matt: “The world moves on, another day, another drama, drama But not for me, not for me, all I think about is karma And then the world moves on, but one thing’s for sure (sure) Maybe I got mine, but you’ll all get yours.”   Becky: All of a sudden we’ve gone from one person to all?   Matt: Oh yeah. So whoever took her kingdom keys apparently stole her keys, stole her kingdom and was like, “No bitch, you don’t live here anymore.”   Becky: Could kingdom keys *laughs* be a metaphor for virginity, here?   Matt: But then which one? Which one of the Starbucks lovers is guilty of that.   Becky: *Laughs* I wish I had kids so that I could be like, “Kids, keep your kingdom keys as long as you can. Just lock them away.”   Matt: “Your chastity belts won’t rust. Don’t worry.”   Becky: “Just keep those kingdom keys to yourself and be sure to give them to the right person.”   Matt: Abstinence-only education.   Becky: “And if you are going to give them away, just keep them protected.”   Matt: Just keep them on a carabiner. Becky: *Laughs* Those Schneider keys that had the chain you could just pull and snap back.   Matt: Exactly!   Becky: Keep them safe. You’ve got to know where they are at all times.   Matt: Taylor did not follow that advice. She is thinking about karma apparently. She’s not going to do anything about how angry she is, which again really contradicts the meaning of the song.   Becky: The “Look what you made me do”!   Matt: Exactly. She’s like, “Oh karma will take care of it. I won’t do anything about it except sulk.”   Becky: I’m going to sit and just bitch about it.   Matt: Yeah. And honestly, the rest of the song. A) It goes back to, “I got smarter, I got harder in the nick of time.” Return to that and then another amazing chorus of “Look what you made me do.” And the final, original set of lyrics is:   “I don’t trust nobody and nobody trusts me. I’ll be the actress starring in your bad dreams. I don’t trust nobody and nobody trusts me. I’ll be the actress starring in your bad dreams.”   And it just repeats until it transitions flawlessly into “Ooh, look what you made me do.”   Becky: Taylor. Taylor, I get that you’re young, probably started partying, started drinking a little bit and that’s where this came from, maybe. I don’t know.   Matt: Girl’s nearly in her 30s.   Becky: Yeah, I don’t get it.   Matt: Britney had a weird stage; I’ll allow Taylor one, but this was a…   Becky: Britney had a good one because she shaved her head.   Matt: *Laughs* She put on a show!   Becky: *Laughs* She is a showman through and through. Like, she shaved her head, tried to attack somebody with an umbrella…   Matt: I don’t remember the umbrella… Becky: Oh yeah, that was after she shaved her head. I think she went for somebody’s car window because they were taking photos of her in the car, so she went for that. Yeah. That’s a good photo to look up. It’s priceless.   Matt: That’s the next segment.   Becky: Yeah, that’s the second podcast. Photos of people going crazy.   Matt: That’s the first one!   Becky: Okay, so I think, universally, this song is incredibly awful. I think we can both agree.   Matt: Do we have a rating for this?   Becky: I would say she’s mild. Like, on a scale of 1 to 5 -- like, 5-star spicy crappy lyrics -- she’s probably right in the middle there.   Matt: I am inclined to agree.   Becky: It’s like a 3-4.   Matt: Right. It depends on your own taste buds, your ethnicity. Certainly when it comes to this song.   Becky: Oh god, yeah.   Matt: Honestly, on a scale of 1 to 5 yikes, I’m inclined to give it a 3. What nudges it toward 4 is the spoken lyrics...   Becky: Yeah.   Matt: “The old Taylor can’t come to the phone right now.” “Why?” “‘Cause she’s dead.” And then I just hear the teenager in me slam the door and yell, “You’re not my real mom and you never will be!”   Becky: *Laughs* I will say, also, [those lyrics are] my favorite part of the song.   Matt: It’s only the original part of the song!   Becky: It really is! It really is. That’s like her acting out. And you’re like, “Oh. Ohh. Taylor got edge.”   Matt: To be honest, what would have kept it at a 3, if they would have just deleted the spoken word portion. This would have been a goth “Call Me Maybe.”   Becky: Yeah. Ooh, yes! I like that. I agree with you on that one. So we’re going a solid 3 to 4 yikes on the awful lyrics scale.   Matt: I am inclined to agree. It’s not the worst. It’s certainly not the best lyrics.   Becky: It’s definitely not. *Noise of a truck* Sorry for the trucks in the background, people! This is what happens when you record in an old building. Alright, so mine...Honestly, I don’t know when it came out. This song is the reason this podcast is existing because my coworker heard me bashing these lyrics and said, “Oh my god, please record this.” So Ellen, here you go!   Oh God, how do I do this? Okay:   “I met you in the dark, you lit me up You made me feel as though I was enough We danced the night away, we drank too much I held your hair back when You were throwing up   Then you smiled over your shoulder For a minute, I was stone-cold sober I pulled you closer to my chest And you asked me to stay over I said, I already told ya I think that you should get some rest”   Becky: And then it goes into the chorus. Go ahead, see if you can guess this one. Yeah.   Matt: I’m going to need some more lyrics.   Becky: I’m going to go into the chorus right now:   “I knew I loved you then But you'd never know 'Cause I played it cool when I was scared of letting go I know I needed you But I never showed But I wanna…”   Becky: I can’t even get to this part without laughing.   “But I wanna stay with you until we're grey and old Just say you won't let go Just say you won't let go”   Becky: ...Which is the name of the song.   Matt: Ohhhh my God.   Becky: That is James Arthur’s “Say You Won’t Let Go.” Now James Arthur, if I remember correctly won, like, X Factor, which is a British TV show like…   Matt: America’s Got Talent?   Becky: Yeah! I think it’s something similar.   Matt: Are there buttons?   Becky: There are people who are guest judges or whatnot. I think it might just be music, so it’d be like an American Idol situation. And [this song] is one of the more popular wedding songs, which I find offensive.   Matt: Oh no.   Becky: Yes! Yes, this is played at weddings. People pick this as their wedding song. So I’m going to go ahead and we’re just going to start again. So he starts with:   “I met you in the dark, you lit me up You made me feel as though I was enough”   Sweet enough sentiment. Right?   Matt: I will say it sounds like they’re both getting high at a party, which I’m just like, “Oh okay.”   Becky: They’re young. They can do that. I mean, I don’t remember the last time we’d dance the night away. Here’s where I start to have some issues with this being at all a good song and even a wedding song, where he says:   “I held your hair back when You were throwing up”   Now, there’s so many things here for me. You just met her and now you’re holding her hair back. While she’s puking.   Matt: Wow.   Becky: Do you want to be with a girl who can’t handle her booze is my number one question. *Laughs* Like, is that a thing?   Matt: I mean, I have to hand it to him. I can definitely see a couple of things wrong with the dating culture. Number one -- women who look at this song and think, “You know what? I’m just looking for a man who’s going to hold my hair back 30 minutes after I’ve met him.”   Becky: She’s gotten to that point. It’s like in Singles where she’s like, I was looking for all these things, and now I’m just looking for a man who says “God bless you” instead of “Gesundheit” when they sneeze. That’s where she’s at.   Matt: I mean, it’s a pretty low threshold.   Becky: Yeah.   Matt: But I also think it’s very much a critique on straight men who are like -- there’s no such thing as a red flag to me. She’s vomiting in a toilet? I bet I could get laid tonight!   Becky: She is so beyond her means; if anything, we’re going in for the kill. Okay, so now it says:   “You smiled over your shoulder”   Becky: All I can picture at this point is puke-face, which is puke stuck in the teeth, her make-up is now down around her cheeks, she’s got raccoon-face. She is that girl at the end of the night who is missing a shoe. And is holding the other one in somebody else’s shoe in her hand. Her purse is open; shit spilling out all over the place. That’s the girl I’m picturing, and you’re like…”Yeah.”   Matt: Say you won’t let go!   Becky: *Laughs* This is the girl for me. Forever. No. No, I can’t...And a wedding song! I’m going to keep saying this. This is a wedding song. People pick this for their freaking wedding.   Matt: See, what I love about that is that it explicitly gives the couple permission to drink too much, to dance the night away. And THEN, as she’s puking, he’s going to be like, “It’s like the first night we met!” *Laughs*   Becky: Open bar at this wedding! Very clearly. We’re not going to have food, just booze because we’re going to relive our first night. I can’t. And then he says:   “For a minute, I was stone-cold sober”   Becky: Now, when you sobered up for that second, did you go, “What the fuck am I doing?” Because that’s [when] I would have gone, “What am I doing? Why? This girl is puking and I’m holding her hair back and that’s the girl I think…”   But then he went, “Nope! We’re good. I don’t know what that was about. I’m pushing that to the back. Pushing it to the back. That is not a red flag in any way.” I don’t get it. And clearly, puke-face is a turn-on for this guy because then he pulls her close.   Matt: He’s got a thing.   Becky: *Gagging noises* It’s giving me the gag reflex thinking about it. Then he says:   “And you asked me to stay over I said, I already told ya”   Classy. He’s good.   Matt: Wow.   Becky: Yeah:   “I said, I already told ya I think that you should get some rest”   Becky: Now I’m not sure if he’s just being nice because she just lost the contents of her entire stomach in front of him and he doesn’t want to embarrass her any more or he’s like, “I’m going to go in for the kill even though I said ‘Let’s just get some rest.’”   Matt: He’s closing the deal. Honestly, if he cared, he’d be like, “We’re going to get you some water and medical attention.”   Becky: This is a “Me Too” movement issue.   Matt: Yeah, a #MeToo moment.   Becky: And then he goes on: “I knew I loved you then.” Got to be a fetish. Like, puke-face fetish. I don’t know. Not anything I go for. “But you’d never know.” Yeah because she’s black-out drunk. Who remembers during black-out drunk-ness? And then he says: 'Cause I played it cool when I was scared of letting go.” Yeah because she could die of alcohol poisoning. *Laughs* There could possibly be a death that your fingerprints are on the body now.   Matt: He’s scared of letting go and yet, at no point does he think, “You know, there are medical professionals who are paid to take care of this.” Becky: Yeah, maybe urgent care. That’s all I’m saying.   Matt: She deserves better at this point.   Becky: Yeah, and then he goes into, “I know I needed you.” More like she needed you rather than the other way around?   Matt: Yeah, she needed you in the same sense that she needed to be hydrated.   Becky: Yeah, maybe needed to be told, “Maybe not that last drink.”   Matt: Exactly. And this is going to be a bad decision.   Becky: Stop spinning while you’re dancing. Doing that little spinny-dance. That hippie dance thing. I don’t know. I don’t dance. I have no idea what the kids do these days. So then we go into the he wants to stay with her when she’s gray and old.   When you’re gray and old and you’re still puking into a toilet, holding her hair back. That’s old.   Matt: My brain went the opposite direction. Of course he’s excited for her to get gray and old because then all sorts of bodily functions go haywire. He definitely has a kink for this.   Becky: He’s waiting for the diaper stage.   Matt: Yep. 100%.   Becky: So then we get to the next bit:   “I'll wake you up with some breakfast in bed I'll bring you coffee with a kiss on your head”   This is an intervention. She’s daydrinking; she’s hungover. That’s what this has to be.   Matt: Too many damn mimosas.   Becky: “And I'll take the kids to school.” ...Because Mom’s had too much Mom-juice? What is happening here? Now we’ve established there’s a cycle. There’s a problem. “Wave them goodbye.” Because Mommy’s going to rehab and you’re not going to see her for a little while is what I’m getting. I could be wrong. “And I'll thank my lucky stars for that night.” The puke night? You’re thanking your stars because now you are having to take over care -- ALL the care of your kids -- because your wife can’t get out of bed because she’s been day-drinking and going on the Mom-juice.   Matt: Alright, two things. Well, actually, two kinks really come out of this. Number one, he definitely has a thing for girls who are messes. Like, full-on messes. Number two, the dude was playing long-game. If I can get with an alcoholic woman, enable it…   Becky: There will be diapers sooner [rather] than later!   Matt: Exactly. *Laughs* And I cannot wait to get custody of the kids who don’t exist yet. So...interesting, James Arthur.   Becky: Maybe that’s all he wanted was kids. And he just needed some drunk, crazy lady that would believe anything he said to her just to get those kids.   Matt: I hate to say it, but I know a fair number of straight women who, if a dude held their hair back, they’d be like, “Aw, he’s got a caring, tender soul.”   Becky: Yeah, I probably would have said that in my twenties. I’m also 45 now, so I’m like, “There’s something wrong with this guy.”   Matt: That’s because it’s amazing when you get out of your twenties...the clarity through which you can see the world!   Becky: Oh my God, yeah. Okay, so then we go back into the whole, “When you looked over your shoulder. For a minute, I forget that I'm older.” And here’s where I become an asshole for picking this song because the next line is, “Because you’ve been too busy hiding her alcoholism from the family.” The song’s about alcoholism! People are playing this for weddings! Again, top wedding song -- alcoholism is mentioned in the lyrics.   Matt: Wait, repeat that exact lyric.   Becky: “Because you’ve been too busy hiding her alcoholism from the family.”   Matt: Wait, who is? He is?   Becky: He is. His whole little stanza is:   “When you looked over your shoulder For a minute, I forgot that I'm older Too busy hiding her alcoholism from the family.”   Matt: This took a turn…   Becky: I know! I’ve never gotten past the first stanza where he’s holding her hair and she’s puking. No idea that they would all of a sudden mention alcoholism. THEY MENTION ALCOHOLISM. How is this a wedding song? You people have got to listen past the first stanza. And then it goes into, “I wanna dance with you right now.” I’m assuming now because shouldn’t she be in rehab? And then, “Oh, and you look as beautiful as ever. And I swear that everyday'll get better.” Everyday’ll. That’s everyday, apostrophe, L, L. Get better. “You make me feel this way somehow.” I don’t know. What would that way be? Afraid of drinking?   “I'm so in love with you And I hope you know Darling your love is more than worth its weight in gold.”   Now we’ve just completely gone past the alcoholism. That was just a little blip. Just a little mention.   Matt: Just going to drop that in as a reminder.   Becky: Yeah. Then this one gets me, “I wanna live with you/Even when we're ghosts.” Really?   Matt: That’s eternity.   Becky: That’s really...no.   Matt: I have yet to meet a single person in my living life who I would want to spend an actual eternity with.   Becky: I don’t want to spend that much time with my cat.   Matt: Ah! But see, that is the precise lyric that made that a wedding song.   Becky: Yeah. OR “I'm gonna love you till/My lungs give out.” Till my lungs give out?   Matt: But then he just literally contradicts what he’s just saying. He’s like, “I’m going to…” What?   Becky: Be with you even when we’re ghosts. But now it’s just till my lungs give out. He backed it up a bit. He was like, “Ooh…”   Matt: There was a rug that he pulled out from underneath her, which is that he doesn’t believe in ghosts.   Becky: OR he’s thinking he’s got a better shot in the afterlife of hooking up with, like, Anna Nicole Smith or something.   Matt: I’m guessing. But no one says what Anna Nicole Smith looks like after she died. What form of Anna Nicole? Becky: He’s thinking ahead. FAR ahead since he cut it back down to just till my lungs give out. “I promise till death we part like in our vows”?   Matt: Yikes. That’s just poor sentence construction.   Becky: Well, again, this song is about alcoholism and it’s a top 10 wedding song.   Matt: That’s a winner.   Becky: I think it’s a top 10 wedding song mainly because he’s British and the Brits do love their booze. *Laughs* So I’m sure it hits home with a lot of Brits.   Matt: I’m going to give you the win on this one. It was never a competition. I’m giving you the win. That is a clusterfuck of a song.   Becky: That TOP hit...I don’t even know what it topped at, but it’s up there. Not only that...WEDDING SONG.   Matt: First of all, he didn’t just have a thing for ladies who were messes, he then also proceeds to move forward with it to be like, “You know what I really love about you? How you hide your debilitating substance use from your family. That’s a major turn-on for me.”   Becky: See? He gave us a little hint in the beginning, and we’re all like, “This guy’s just an idiot. They’re just young.” And then it’s, “Oh shit. They’re alcoholics.”   Matt: She’s got a problem! And then it should have just been, “I’ll love you until we’re ghosts, which will be soon because your liver won’t last much longer.”   Becky: Because cirrhosis is bad. I say this is right up there. I say this is a 4.5 on the yikes scale for me.   Matt: I was precisely thinking somewhere between 4 to 4.5, but I will give it credit. There’s no way it’s going to be a 5, only because there was an emotional journey there.   Becky: There was. He took you on a little bit of a ride, albeit a crazy rollercoaster of alcoholism clusterfucks.   Matt: I don’t think I would have ever..No, no no. AMENDMENT: I would have never guessed there was an actual major pop song that had the word alcoholism in it.   Becky: Now I feel like I’ve got to look it up, but he was up there. I can’t remember where it was, but it played a lot, and I was like, did anyone actually listen to these lyrics before it went anywhere outside of the recording studio?   Matt: I think they saw it and thought to themselves, “Oh my God -- the UK -- this is going to be relatable.”   Becky: *Laughs* These people drink like fish and they are going to love this song. Alright, let’s see if I can find it...where did this damn song hit. I can’t believe this song about alcoholism made the charts. Let’s see, Brit Awards...Video of the Year and Single of the Year in 2017. Also, Oh thank God, it wasn’t for Teen Choice Awards. Thank goodness!  He also won American New Artist of the Year that year!   Matt: No. This is #MeToo moment. First of all it was a #MeToo moment and then, following that, was alcoholism and neglect?   Becky: Peaked at number 11 on the Billboard Hot 100. In May 2018, it was reported that The Script, also another classic band, had launched legal proceedings against him due to alleged copyright infringement in regards to this song.   Matt & Becky: OHH!   Becky: It just got ugly.   Matt: Although now I’m intrigued at the title because...does the title, “Say You Won’t Let Go” refer to…   Becky: The booze?   Matt: ...a Jameson bottle? Or James Arthur?   Becky: I’d go with the bottle of booze. *Laughs*   Matt: I think she’s certainly loving that!   Becky: THAT is good when you’re a ghost.   Matt: You know what pairs best with cirrhosis? Jameson. Informal plug.   Becky: Jameson if you would like to sponsor us…   Matt: Please let us know!   Becky: Please!   Matt: Please get us out of this studio.   Becky: This studio is hot and there’s guns a-blazin’ probably somewhere in Seattle right now. Okay everybody, thanks so much for listening. Please join us next time when we take a peak at the riveting lyrics of songs from the ‘90s. That’s right. I’m Becky.   Matt: I’m Matt.   Becky: And this was…   Becky & Matt: WHAT THE LYRIC?!?

We discuss different models of asking questions to students, typical mistakes trainers make in asking questions and the most powerful questions we can ask ourselves to reflect.Ross Thorburn: Hello, everybody. Welcome to our podcast. Today, we've got two guests. Matt, our regular guest...Matt Courtois: Hey, how's it going?Tracy: Hey, Matt! And we have Karin.Karin Xie: Hello.Tracy: Karin Xie!Ross Thorburn: What do you do, Karin? What's your job now? It's changed since last time.Karin: Yeah. I am now the Academic Manager for Trinity China. My job is helping teachers preparing their students for Trinity GESE exams, and also expanding Trinity TESOL courses to teachers in Mainland China.Tracy: Great, OK. Welcome.Ross: Today, I thought we could talk about questions. I thought it would be interesting today to look at different aspects of questions, or different ways that we can look at questions using Bloom's taxonomy, open and closed, and a whole lot of other things.Tracy: We've got three questions about questions. The first one is questions teachers can ask, and the second?Matt: The second one is questions trainers ask.Tracy: And the third one?Karin: The questions we can ask ourselves to reflect.Questions teachers askTracy: You know, we all are teachers, we were teachers, and we've trained teachers. What do you think teachers really feel struggle with asking questions in the classroom?Karin: I got curious in that question. That's why I used it as my section one for my DipTESOL portfolio topic. We ask so many questions, but we are not necessarily always aware of why we ask the questions we ask, and what we were trying to get from the students.Matt: Did you find anything in your research?Karin: Yeah, the main thing was teachers rarely paid attention to the proportion of display questions and referential questions they ask.Ross: Before we jump into what kind of things teachers ask, what are some different types of questions or ways of categorizing teacher questions?Karin: The simple way of categorizing questions like open‑ended questions, and yes/no questions, and there's also, display questions, and referential questions.Ross: I think most people can get closed and open questions, but what's a referential question or a display question?Karin: A display question is when the person or the teacher knows the answer, or the other people also know the answer to the question. For example, when you hold a pen, so everybody can see the pen, and you ask, "What color is this pen?"The referential question, on the other hand, would be when you invite opinions, or ask questions that there's no definite answer to.Tracy: I think the display question is quite similar to experience questions, because everybody can see it, can feel it.Ross: I suppose that's good for checking some kind of meaning. You can be sure that however the students answer it, they've either got the concept or not.Tracy: For example, can you find a microphone in this room?[laughter]Ross: I can imagine that must be a problem. If teachers ask too many display questions, there's no real genuine or natural communication. You would never normally ask someone, "What color is this pen?" because you can see the color of the pen by looking at it.Tracy: Yeah, there's no need to ask a question.Matt: It's OK to ask questions about the function of language sometimes, like what it means. I guess we're talking about vocabulary here, but with grammar as well, asking questions, comparing two different grammar structures. It's not necessarily something you would do in day‑to‑day conversation, but I think it's the kind of question that's really essential in the classroom.Karin: It's almost like a concept‑checking question you're talking about.Matt: I think a well‑formed concept checking question can drive a student's understanding of this grammar point or vocabulary point forward. It's not just, "What do you know about it already?"You can ask, for example, after reading an article. I think it's really useful to ask, "Why did the author choose to say it this way? What other ways could he have said it? What other grammar could he have used? How does that change the meaning?"These can not just display that you understand what the grammar is, but it can actually push forward your understanding of grammar.Tracy: It seems like you give the students an opportunity to go further and to make connections between the language, and also how the language can be applied in real communication. For example, where can you use it, and why people use it, instead of using that.Karin: Or getting students to analyze and evaluate the language that they've heard, or they just used.Ross: Sounds like now we're heading on to Bloom's taxonomy as a way of looking at questions.The lowest levels of Bloom's taxonomy might be "What's this?" or "What did you read?" or "What did this person do in this passage?" whereas, higher up, it would be, "Why did they behave this way? Why did they make this decision?" Then maybe at the top it might be, "Can you rewrite the ending to this story?"Tracy: Did you read something recently, Ross, about reading comprehension questions?Ross: I have here a couple of other models for reading comprehension questions. One is by Diane Freeman. She splits reading comprehensions into three different areas. One is questions about the content, like what happened in the text or why did this person do this.Then, you get questions about the language. Maybe those are ones like Matt mentioned earlier. What tense did the person use here? Why did they use that? What does that show?The final one, as she calls them, affect questions. It's like a personal response. What do you think of this character? Why do you think they did this thing? Or, evaluation, like what did the author mean by this?Matt: Or what stance does the author take? How does it represent the values of society? Where is the author's place in this?Karin: One thing that I didn't know or wasn't aware of before I did my research, but I did come to realize, was that the follow‑up questions really made a difference. For example, the first few kinds of questions that you mentioned, most teachers would ask them, but what really made a difference was the later ones, because not many teachers ask them.[crosstalk]Ross: I always thought forward these things, like going to those higher levels of Bloom's taxonomy, it's nice to have, but maybe it's not really helping people learn language.The more I've read about this recently, the more I'm beginning to believe, or understand, that the deeper you get students to process and think about it, the more they're able to remember and recall ideas later on. Really pushing people to think about things in a much deeper way actually helps them with language acquisition.Tracy: Recently, I read Edward de Bono's book, "Teach Your Child to Think." What he mentioned is about there are a different type of practice and you can help the children to improve their thinking skills.There are four different types of item, and they are fun items, which means the questions should be imaginative, and they can be a little bit crazy.What would happen if we all had a third arm? They have a remote item beyond their experience and means. For example, what factors would you consider when you're choosing a place to set up a new restaurant? For children, probably, they've seen restaurants, but they don't know what is the process to set up the restaurant.The third one is called backyard item. For example, what do you think your school policy is. Do you agree with it or you disagree with it? It relates this to their life.The last one is called highway item. It's serious and directly relevant to their life like how can you make more friends in your neighborhood?These questions, of course, not always, were used in a classroom. Also, I think teacher and parents should help their children to be able to improve their thinking skills.Questions trainers askRoss: Let's talk a bit about questions that trainers ask them. I know Karin, you and I and Matt, we talked before about almost this danger of trainers asking questions to trainees and doing that classic thing of, "Hey, I'm trying to elicit an idea. Do you know what it is?"Matt: Years ago when I was a teacher, I had a trainer who was talking about board work and she asked us something about, let's say, word stress. She was saying, "What's a way we can symbolize word stress on the board?"Somebody was like, "You could draw a circle over the stress syllable." The trainer went, "Yeah, I guess we could."[laughter]Matt: She kept going at it and somebody else was like, "You could underline the stress syllable." "Yeah, yeah, yeah."[laughter]Matt: Finally, we got to the point of just saying, "What is it?" and she was like, "Guys, we have different colored markers on the board." Then we're like, "Oh, OK. I get it," and she's like, "So, what can you do?"[laughter]Karin: It's almost like reading my mind or guess what I'm thinking, rather than what we can do, or different options.Ross: At least in that example, none of those other options were any less valid than the other one. I think the thing is that people will be more likely to use their idea than something that someone else spoon‑feeds you.Matt: Ross, when you observed my training before, or maybe when you observed my lessons at the very beginning, the first question you asked was what kind of feedback do you want. Do you want to do a coaching reflection thing? Do you want to just give you a few points to work on?I thought that was pretty cool. I think we ended up doing a reflection thing. Then we finished that and I said, "OK, what's your advice?"Karin: That's because maybe you both preferred that coaching style. We were so used to a certain way of doing things in training and feedback. We just assumed that people would prefer similar ways. We are just how we trained.Tracy: Like Matt mentioned, it's great if the trainer can give the options to the trainee on what type of feedback you prefer. It also doesn't mean that's always true. If I say I prefer direct feedback, it doesn't mean this person can really accept and then to be reflective on those direct feedback, or take actions. I think there is always a balance.Ross: I don't think I do that anymore. I don't think I give people that choice because what I found was that people just say, "Yeah, just tell me what you think." That's like the default setting.I often find that after you tell someone, "These are the three things I would change," they're like, "Well, that was a bit direct."[laughter]Ross: It's like that's what you thought you wanted but maybe that's not what you actually wanted. In that situation, now, I usually go, "What do you want to talk about, about the lesson or about the training?" Tell me about it.Usually, you find that the thing the person first starts speaking about is the thing they're most interested in. Then you can start exploring that area.Tracy: I think it's also a good opportunity if they felt that they did something really well and we can still explore. Why do you think it went really well?Matt: When we were talking last night, you drew a distinction between two kinds of questions. You're saying that's eliciting, it's not really...what was it?Ross: Right, I think, Karin, your example.Karin: Self‑discovery.Ross: Yeah, your example was...I ask these questions so people can self‑discover. I think there's a difference between self‑discovery and eliciting. If you ask a lot of questions to elicit, that's like, "I have an idea and I want to 'coach you' to get to this idea that I'm already thinking of."That's the thing people find annoying. Whereas self‑discovery is different, because that's, for me at least, you're discovering your own answer to the question. I don't really care if the answer that you get is the same answer as I've thought of or not.Matt: So often I think what every trainee hates is when the trainer is eliciting from them and they try to disguise it as self‑discovery.Questions we ask ourselves to reflectRoss: We talked about teachers asking questions and trainers asking questions. I think that probably all of us have found, when you get to a certain point in your career, there isn't anyone asking you questions and coaching you. It comes down to yourself, to be in charge of your own professional development. What questions do you guys ask yourselves to help yourselves improve?Tracy: I always try to ask myself...I read something or I heard something or just to find out a new concept and how can I make it relevant to my working context.Karin: Remember, Tracy, I was showing you the Chinese quote from my friend. The three questions. She said, whenever you talk to people, ask yourself, one, would people be able to understand what you say?Two, the things that people and the things that you mention, would people know about them? The third would be, would people be interested in what you're talking about, and why? I think those were three really lovely questions for us to ask ourselves.Ross: The other useful question that I find I ask myself is ‑‑ this is not so much as a trainer but as a manager ‑‑ when things go wrong and you often think, "Wow, it's because this person messed this thing up." So often that is the case.The most powerful thing that I find for helping me learn is stepping back and thinking, I can't change how my boss behaves or I can't change how this person in the sale department behaves. Those things were out of my control.Even though this was 99 percent this other person's fault, what's the thing that I could have done differently in this situation? I find that's a really useful thing. Also, for people who work for you, going, "This wasn't your fault."But, what's the thing that you could have done differently to prevent that from happening? Then all of those annoying situations, all of those problems when they arise, you can still turn them into some opportunity to learn something.Ross: Matt and Karin, thanks very much for coming in again.Matt: Thanks for having me, Ross.Ross: You're very welcome, Matt.Ross: Bye, everyone.Karin: Bye.Tracy: Bye.

DEEP DIVES & tiny curations Podcast Episodes Available Today: http://tinycurations.com Listen NOW on Pandora: https://www.pandora.com/search/tiny%20curations/ Hear the playlist on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/user/n9g9p0bspz4axwozqtyy8dzgd/playlist/1vCtfz7PDTW4Gu41PRVSAv?si=FNJfcwy5SlGUfxfn1CLxPg 01 - Enrique Iglesias - Escape 02 - The Police - Every Breath You Take 03 - Audioslave - Like A Stone 04 - The Proclaimers - I'm Gonna Be (500 Miles) 05 - The Human League - Don't You Want Me 06 - Blondie - One Way or Another 07 - Dave Matthews Band - Crush 08 - Garbage - #1 Crush 09 - Rhett Akins - That Ain't My Truck 10 - The Cure - A Night Like This 11 - Frankie Valli - My Eyes Adored You 12 - Lionel Ritchie - Hello 13 - Rockwell - Somebody's Watching Me Valentine's Day love songs that you didn't know were actually stalker and creeper songs: MATT: Hi! I'm Matt Comer, and I'm here with Antonio Banda. ANTONIO: Hey there, and happy Valentine's Day! MATT: Yes, and speaking of Valentine's Day, we're here to bring you [20] love songs you didn't know are actually stalker and creeper songs. ANTONIO: That's right. We asked a Facebook online dating group, and our friends, what their favorite mislabeled love songs are, and we curated their suggestions into this creepy, yet romantic, playlist. MATT: So, cuddle up with your favorite creeper …er… I mean, valentine, and enjoy. MATT: This is Matt. ANTONIO: And this is Antonio. MATT: And you're listening to [20] love songs you didn't know are actually stalker and creeper songs. MATT: Thanks for joining us for [20] love songs you didn't know are actually stalker and creeper songs. Have thoughts about this playlist? ANTONIO: Or maybe we missed a song that you think should be on here? MATT: Whatever the case, post your feedback and suggestions in the [insert slack channel name] slack channel. We'd love to hear from you. ANTONIO: Except no stalking, please…unless it's in song form. MATT: Fair enough. Thanks, again, for listening, and have a happy Valentine's Day! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/tiny-curations-deep-dives/message

Guest:  Matt Smith Title: Crypto Prediction Markets: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly Record Date: 1/9/2019 Air Date: 1/31/2019 Topic: Crypto Predictions Markets Matt Smith joins us today to talk about how crypto prediction markets work, how blockchain technology is being used to modernize online gambling, which essentially allows people to speculate on the outcome of all kinds of future events. We discuss some of the common applications of these prediction markets and their pros and cons. And we dive into some of the deep implications of the more controversial betting markets on these platforms, such as assassination markets and mass casualties in future unknown terrorist attacks. It’s a fascinating discussion. Join us!   Topics Covered in this Episode:   – Sports gambling is very much in the news – Brief history of sports gambling laws in the United States – 2018 Supreme Court decision giving power to states on sports gambling – Will online sports gambling be next step of legalizing gambling? – How traditional prediction markets work – Prediction markets and how they utilize the “wisdom of crowds” – Different formulations of prediction markets – Crypto prediction market as a new twist on an age-old idea – Benefits of decentralized prediction markets – better security and censorship resistance, global pool of liquidity – Could shape future of online sports gambling – Core innovation – gambling good way to bootstrap new crypto networks, uncover information otherwise hidden, inject data verifiably into the blockchain ecosystem – NJ Refund of bets example – How these platforms actually work? How do you place bets and create markets? – How censorship resistant decentralized betting platforms such as Augur work, interacting directly with the markets, using the blockchain – On killing the kill switch of this network and what that means – On assassination markets and the potential implications of that – On political bad actors and how they could manipulate assassination markets – Where all this is heading, maybe to the courts – How dispute resolution works on these platforms – Some recent disputes such as the recent US midterm elections and baseball and how they are being resolved – Closing thoughts Links and Resources: Betting on the national anthem: An American tradition Biggest Super Bowl LIII bets 2019 Super Bowl Betting Odds: Spread, Total & Prop Betting Action Update Supreme Court Ruling Favors Sports Betting MURPHY, GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY, ET AL. v.NATIONAL COLLEGIATE ATHLETIC ASSN. ET AL. US Betting Sites Sports Betting May Soon Be Legal in New York, but Only 4 Casinos Upstate Would Offer It Will Sports Betting Transform How Games Are Watched, and Even Played? Prediction Markets Four Prediction Market Platforms Compared The Weirdest Prediction Markets on Augur Right Now Crypto Prediction Market Augur Is Gearing Up for Its First Major Upgrade The First Augur Assassination Markets Have Arrived The Weirdest Prediction Markets on Augur Right Now - Yahoo Finance What are Blockchain Prediction Markets? Decentralized Prediction Markets: the Opportunities, the Threats, and Prediction markets are hot AF right now. – Hacker As Crypto Meets Prediction Markets, Regulators Take Notice Decentralized Prediction Markets: How Blockchain Crypto Betting Works? Why You Should Try Decentralized Prediction Markets Right Now If the "Which party will control the House after 2018 U.S. Midterm Election?" resolves to anything but 'Democrats' I'm never using Augur again Augur Betting, Over 2 Million for the US Election N.J. sports book refunds bets from Saints game after blown call Questions and Comments? podcast@gem.co Transcript Chitra: Welcome to the show, Matt. It's great to have you.   Matt: Thanks, Chitra. It's always good to be at Gem.   Chitra: Wonderful. Before we go into what crypto-based prediction markets are, let's talk a little bit about what are prediction markets and how do they work?   Matt: Yeah sure. So a prediction market is a market like any other. It's a place where commerce happens, where things are bought and sold. The name can be a little misleading because you're not buying predictions. What you're buying are stake, you're buying a stake, like a position, in the outcome of some event. The thing that's unique about a prediction market is that you can bet on the outcome of any event. So say I care a lot about sports and I want to put money on my position that the Yankees are absolutely gonna beat the Red Sox, obviously, and maybe that's illegal where I do it, but I'll go to my bookie and I'll say hey I think the Red Sox are gonna win, I've looked at the stats, they're gonna win so I'm gonna put this much money on it, give me some odds. Then whenever that event resolves, I get money back if I'm right and then I lose my money if I'm wrong.   Chitra: Okay. So there's a lot of science and math behind this because it essentially goes to the notion of the wisdom of crowds. That an individual's intelligence gathering is a lot less powerful than that of a number of people. So it's essentially aggregating of information.   Matt: Yeah. It's not necessarily just that like you get 100 people in a room and those people are gonna make a better decision than one person in isolation. What these markets really do, if they are liquid and highly available, if you have access to a large number of people, there's gonna be people in that crowd that have some insight. That maybe have inside information or have studied the mechanics of whatever is gonna drive the outcome of the result. A prediction market can enable those people to monetize that knowledge, that insight. So people that don't know really any information about the Red Sox or the Yankees, they're not gonna bet on it because they don't know who's gonna win, it would be a very risky proposition for them, but someone that has inside information like their best hitter got injured but they haven't announced it yet, he's got a real strong incentive to go and make a big bet on the Yankees.   Chitra: Right. So there's a lot of value to this.   Matt: Yeah. So you can absolutely uncover information that would otherwise remain hidden. That's why we call it a prediction market because the market as a whole for the outcome of some event predicts what the outcome will be.   Chitra: These are binary decision making right on sort of discrete events?   Matt: There are actually a bunch of different formulations, different constructions you can do for models. Binary is probably the most common, easiest to understand. Like this is gonna happen or this is gonna happen. One of these two things is gonna happen. That's available on most of the prediction markets we're gonna talk about today. You can also do categories, like multiple choice A, B, C or D. Or you can do like a scale or range, a numerical range. Like it's gonna be somewhere between this value... You can have a curve where the payout is proportional to where it falls on this graph. Those are a little bit more complicated so maybe it's easier to talk about the binary option. Binary options are fairly interesting because binary option is an existing financial instrument, and prediction markets as a class sort of mimic their pay where there's a threshold, and one thing happens or the other thing happens and then you pay out accordingly.   Chitra: So now let's talk about crypto-based prediction markets. Now, prediction markets are very old. They go back to like 1884 or something like that. So are crypto prediction markets basically a new twist on a very old idea?   Matt: That feels like a leading question, Chitra. Totally - they are. We've seen political election markets way, way back, people do things like buy votes because there's a financial incentive to make their party win because they had bet a lot of money on this one candidate winning. So, yeah, people definitely do this and that's why we see regulations emerge around what you can bet on, what you can't bet on. Crypto prediction markets are interesting because we get a lot of the, after what you see in blockchain and decentralized applications that are well suited to the form, which means that they eliminate counterparty risk.   Chitra: What does that mean?   Matt: So when I go to bet on the Red Sox or the Yankees and say it's illegal. I think there are regulatory changes in the US where maybe sports betting is okay now, but until very recently at least it was illegal to bet on sports in most jurisdictions. So if I'm gonna go and place that bet, I'm gonna be going to a bookie who's breaking the law. Because this is like a shady area, there's a chance that when I give him my money and tell him to give me more money back if I'm right, there's a chance that he just doesn't do that. I'm still right, but he just goes away. My risk is that my counterparty, the person I'm interacting with, this guy, is going to abscond.   This risk exists in most centralized systems, not just in these fringe ones or these illegal markets where it's definitely much more risky because there isn't regulatory oversight, but even if you're trading on a normal financial exchange, foreign exchange or something. There's still a risk that your counterparty person that you're trading directly with through this intermediary won't be able to satisfy the order and you'll be left out in the cold.   Matt: So there's a counterparty risk, and we can eliminate this, we do this in decentralized exchange protocols, like the 0x protocol and Ether Delta and these other applications. The other thing that we get by using a blockchain is we get this censorship resistance. So like I said, it's illegal on these jurisdictions to gamble on a lot of things like political elections, it's illegal almost everywhere to gamble on them because it sort of undermines the integrity of the election. So you can't really do that. But in a decentralized prediction market, it's really hard to enforce those rules. You can't really say no you can do you can do this but not this. You sort of do whatever you want. Maybe that's a good thing because there are some jurisdictions where your access to financial markets in general is restricted.   This is a mechanism that maybe some corrupt governments might use to keep certain segments of the population from accessing the broader financial markets. Like we can look at the currency controls in China. They have limited access to international markets. Prediction markets are cool because you can use them to emulate almost any financial instrument. I can make a prediction market for what will the price of the British pound versus the US dollar be on such and such a date? Then I can basically create this synthetic forex market out of this decentralized platform. So they're very versatile. And because they're censorship resistant, they're also international. I can reach across borders. I've got this huge global pool of liquidity. Everyone in the world that wants to bet on the Red Sox versus the Yankees can do it in this one place.   Chitra: So someone in China could make a prediction on who's gonna win the World Cup or something like that.   Matt: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That's a cool thing because normally these sort of markets, especially when they're illegal, are localized. They're focused on a small local area. Or they're run by a centralized online exchange, and those we saw with the dark web Silk Road markets and those kind of things, those are very vulnerable to people absconding with money because that's what you've ascended to. So the conflicts of those three factors are what make these really uniquely valuable in terms of a betting market or trading exchange kind of thing.   Chitra: So what's the core innovation here? What's the true value of these decentralized platforms do you think? If you were to sum it up.   Matt: Gambling is a good way to get network, bootstrap network. Because everyone likes to gamble. We've been doing this forever. Dice is a really old kind of game people bet on. It's something people want to do and it's something that governments tend to restrict people's access to. So we can get a lot of people on this platform to start using it. But the results of using these markets is we get two really cool things out of these prediction markets.   The first thing is that we can uncover information the world has at large but isn't able to voice about what's going to happen to the world. We were talking about earlier, maybe it's something trivial like the Red Sox versus the Yankees, or maybe it's something much more meaningful, and I struggle to find a good example because I didn't prepare well enough, but we can sort of see, maybe we're talking about an election or something, and maybe there was some key insight about what's gonna happen in this local election that a few people have. So we might be able to give them a financial incentive to reveal that information monetarily, and potentially anonymously if you're very careful, so they get rewarded for telling the world that they feel very strong, they feel this many dollars strongly that this is gonna happen. So we get this information service.   The other thing that we get out of these platforms is specifically in the blockchain space is that we get this information from the outside world, like Yankees versus Red Sox or who won the election, and we are able to inject it in a trusted verifiable way into a blockchain ecosystem. This maybe will get a little technical, but the way smart contracts on most blockchain platforms work is that they're what's called deterministic. There's no opportunity for them to have any sort of randomness. They just sort of are a pure result of whatever the inputs to the function of this smart contract program is. That's cool, but what it restricts you to is that you can't get any non-deterministic sources. So you can't reach out to the normal Internet. You can't go to like Weather.com and then figure out what is the weather today?   So there's no really great way for you to write programs that run in a decentralized application that act on these external real-world events. You can do it with what's called an oracle. There are a few sites and services that will do this, where you say like take the information that's published on this webpage and then insert it into the blockchain. That is one way to address a problem. The problem with it is that you have to trust the service that's doing that. One person is publishing a transaction that says the weather is 95 degrees today. The cool thing about these prediction markets when they run on this blockchain is that there are financial incentives to make sure that everyone that's participating agrees this is actually what happens. It was actually 95 degrees that day. Trump actually won the election.   Chitra: So basically you're putting money behind it so it makes a difference.   Matt: Right. You're putting an incentive for everyone that knows that this thing happened to say this is the thing that happened and they will lose that money if they lie. This is really powerful because other smart contracts can leverage these platforms. They can point at these prediction market contracts and say okay I'm interested in the outcome of this result, I want to know what happens. I want my contract to do something in case Trump wins, in case Hillary wins or whatever. Which is something you couldn't really very verifiably or trustlessly do before these sort of decentralized oracles existed. That I think is really powerful and it amps up what we can do with these decentralized applications.   Chitra: Let's talk about how these markets actually work. There are a handful of these crypto prediction markets, Augur being one of them. How do they actually work? How do you make a bet? If I were a betting person.   Matt: Yeah if you were a betting person, Chitra. It's not too dissimilar from how you would log into a normal betting website I guess. It's not very much like a casino where you go play online poker. I have not used that many actual gambling applications, so I don't know what the UI looks like. But basically what you're gonna do is you're gonna go to some website that is gonna be running a server with a connection to the blockchain. Or you're gonna download an application that connects to the blockchain. Maybe there's some sync time. People are familiar when you download the Bitcoin wallet, the main bitcoin log, it takes ages to sync and stuff. You might run into that depending on how you access it, but there are ways around that.   So you get to basically just a web page. It's gonna have a list of all these markets that exist, maybe they'll be categorized. They'll say like these are the sports betting markets, these are the political markets, these are financial markets and stuff. You can go and you can see which markets have been created. Anyone can go and create a market. Anyone can be like I want to create a market for this thing that I want to know about, and that I think I have insight on and I'm gonna bet on myself. So you look at all these and you say okay Yankees, Red Sox, I'm interested in this. So you click on the thing and then you can see that there's a price. So Yankees v. Red Sox, Yankees, Red Sox. There are gonna be two outcomes and you'll see shares for each of these outcomes. So there are yes shares, there are Red Sox shares and there are Yankees shares.   So you can buy either of those and each of those will have a price in Ether. Eventually when we have more stable coin support, you'll be able to buy it in a USD token. But it'll be a cryptocurrency. It will also run on that same blockchain network. So you'll have a blockchain wallet, Metamask, or the Edge Wallet, something like that. Then you're going to say I want to buy such and such Boston shares, Red Sox shares. They'll have some price in Ether and then you go and you buy it.   Another thing that you can do is you can take one Ether and then you can deposit it into the market in some models, and then you'll get equal, you'll get one of both shares, and then you can sell the share that you think's not gonna happen. So there are a couple different mechanisms for that. Basically you're buying shares in the outcome of this market.   Chitra: And using crypto to do that.   Matt: And you're using crypto to do that.   Chitra: Okay.   Matt: So then what's gonna happen is there's gonna be a time when it's set to resolve, like whoever created the market is gonna say this is happening on such and such date. And when that time comes, he or somebody is gonna put in an initial report on what the outcome was, and there's a dispute phase where we sort of... The blockchain comes to an agreement, we come to a consensus on what the outcome of the market was. Once it's decided, everyone with the Boston shares, those Boston shares are now worth 100 percent of the total Ether put into the market, and all the Yankee shares are worth nothing. So if you are stuck holding a bunch of Yankee shares you're like oh that's great. This is blockchain evidence that I made a bad bet. Then the other people get their money.   Chitra: If you didn't already know that you made a bad bet, you have…   Matt: Yeah now you have verifiable evidence.   Chitra: Your empty wallet being an example of having made a bad bet.   Matt: Exactly. But the winners will get that money back into the wallet they used to interact with the protocol. It's pretty straight forward as a trader. The ones that are live, Augur is maybe the biggest one that people talk about right now because it's live and you can actually use it. So their UI is fairly straightforward to use if you're just betting on things. You just see graphs, you see yes no, you see percentages, how many of these token exists and how many you can buy in the network and stuff. So it looks a lot like if you go to a normal exchange where there are a bunch of little mini exchanges.   Chitra: Okay. So we've talked about some of the more straightforward applications, sports, politics, weather. But some of these prediction markets have also some pretty weird and controversial use cases. You've heard about these assassination markets on Augur where people are prediction on celebrity killings, of politicians and other famous people. You've got, what are some of these examples and how did that come about? You've got terrorist attacks, predicting how many mass casualties will happen as a result of an attack.   Matt: Yeah. So like we said, it's a censorship-resistant platform, like Augur we'll take as an example. The software is built by a company called the Forecast Foundation, and they just deployed these smart contracts on the network. They created this token REP, which stands for reputation. There's a fixed supply of those. Those are the people that get to report on outcomes of events. So that's all they really... They put the contracts out there and they created software where you can use this platform to create your own prediction markets. But they didn't create any, they don't control, they don't run like a centralized server where you can go and interact. It's like you download the app and you interact directly with the blockchain protocol.   So they're sort of hands off. You can do whatever. They did for a short period of time have a killswitch when they were first pulling the network to make sure everything went okay. But they burned that killswitch. It's done now. Nobody can turn this off. It's just there. Unless somebody hacks it, and that happens. But so what that means is nobody really has any control over which markets can be created. Anyone can create whatever market they want. There's a small fee to create a market or whatever and if you're willing to stake that, create a market for it. Then anybody that sees that market can go and bet on it. So that's cool because it gives a lot of people access to instruments they wouldn't otherwise be able to get exposure to, and it lets us bet on things that maybe we should be allowed to but for whatever regulatory reasons we can't.   But it also means that we can bet on things that for good reasons we aren't really supposed to. So the assassination markets are a really good example. Basically people create a market that says will such and such political figure die by the end of such and such time frame? The problem with that is it's not just an event that's out of everyone's hands that will sort of occur, this is true with sports betting too which is one of the reasons sports betting is illegal in a lot of jurisdictions. Having a market where you can go bet on one of those outcomes, political figure A will die, creates an incentive for anyone to go and affect that outcome. So I would go and bet yes, I would not, a person might go and bet yes and then go actually commit that murder. Then he would have a big financial incentive.   So that's why we call them assassination markets rather than just a normal prediction market on what's gonna happen. Will he die of natural causes or whatever? It creates this incentive to do this. This is actually really kinda scary. These existed on Augur, but it's not really a big deal because no one's betting on them. So no one's gonna interact with a market if the liquidity is really low because the potential reward is very low, correspondingly low. Most of these markets on the Augur platform which is the only one that I think that is live, are below a thousand dollars total stake opened in these markets. That's a fact because there are a bunch of them. Anyone can create one so you have a bunch so there's this big overload of all these markets you can bet on.   So it hasn't been a problem yet. But if I say I'm a very well funded political actor. Like I'm a state actor or I'm a political opponent, and I have access to a lot of funds, what I can do is I can create that market and then put a lot of money on the opposite side. So will my opponent die? And then I bet no. I put millions of dollars on no. That is effectively a million dollars bounty on that head that anyone can go and fill. All they need to do is buy a bunch of yes shares and then go pull the trigger.   So this is really bad if you think about cyber warfare. You think about well-funded nation states. We've seen a lot of news being reported of questionable veracity about North Korean and Russian hackers using cryptocurrency in some of their schemes. So they maybe have access, they have a deep understanding of how these networks well. They have the ability to do this kind of thing, and it allows you to basically put an open bounty, a public open bounty, on someone's head from overseas and anonymously. It's really scary that you can do that.   Chitra: Isn't someone gonna do something about this? Do you foresee any kind of legal or regulatory issues, liability issues?   Matt: Yeah definitely. It's really hard to say how it's gonna happen because you can't shut it down. The network runs the way it does, the smart contracts are deployed. There's no killswitch on this, so you can't shut it down. It's just there so you can use it. What you can do is go after the people that interact with it. We might see governments outlawing Augur specifically and that's kind of hard to regulate because it's just transactions on a blockchain platform. But again, blockchain records are immutable so I have a disincentive to do anything if I think it can be associated with my identity. There's a very high bar to interacting with most of these public blockchain networks, truly and honestly.   So it's dangerous and there's a disincentive there. But the other thing that we can see regulators do is go after the people that create these systems, which in Augur's case wouldn't really help the problem. Augur's still gonna be there even if you go after the founders or the Forecast Foundation or whatever. But we did see something like that happen with a centralized exchange called Ether Delta. We saw the SEC, I believe the SEC sued the creator of Ether Delta, this decentralized exchange, just because he created the software and was responsible for running a web UI, a server that just served the UI for interacting with these smart contracts, which you didn't have to use but you could. He settled out of court. But this kind of weird pseudo precedent where regulatory bodies can go after developers even that just create this software, create the facility for people to go and create markets that create this opportunity for malfeasance and for dangerous actions.   I think we will definitely see this getting negotiated in court and in the court of public opinion.   Chitra: Yeah. A lot of legal funds will be spent even though the underlying problem can't go away because you can't get rid of the system.   Matt: Yeah. Lawyers will make money for sure. It's really a big question mark and that's one of the things that's probably depressing engagement with Augur. Like Augur does get used but it's not, and I think maybe right now there's maybe a couple million dollars of open stake across all the markets. So that's one of the big question marks.   Chitra: And it's just one of the platforms. There are other platforms.   Matt: Other platforms.   Chitra: You're gonna see a lot of these similar problems and challenges confronting…   Matt: Yeah. And if we see regulators move quickly then that can stifle those other creators. The other platforms that are coming out, there's one called Gnosis which I'm actually a big fan of that team. They've produced a lot of really high quality software. But Augur was the first in the market. It might be more difficult for new competitors to enter the space if they're afraid that they're gonna be liable just by the fact of creating a software that could be used for good things, but could also be used for bad things.   Chitra: Let's talk a little bit about dispute resolution because the immutability of a decentralized platform like this is its strength. But when it comes to dispute resolution it also raises questions of how do you resolve disputes when there's a bet? And how does it affect the core value proposition of a blockchain based platform.   Matt: Yeah. So that's a great question because what we really are trying to do with these platforms is inject truth into the immutable blockchain record. We want to figure out what actually happened for all these things people cared enough to bet on. We can't just say that whoever creates the market imports the outcome because he probably has an incentive, one way or the other. We have to know what actually happened. So the way that most of these systems work is that there is a dispute resolution process. That's why we need this REP token in Augur's case. We need this token that represents financial investment in the network as a whole at its market perception. If people consider Augur to be good and useful and valuable, then that token will go up in value.   So they acquire these tokens and then if you hold some amount of REP and you see a market get resolved with an incorrect decision, a decision you believe to be not what actually happened, you can open a dispute by staking, you take your 100 REP and you say no the Red Sox didn't win, it was the Yankees that won. If you get to a certain threshold, this will kick off this dispute resolution process. Basically it's this incrementing scale, in Augur's case specifically. The amount of REP that has to be staked to dispute even a dispute... We have the initial report, someone disputes it and says no it's Red Sox, Yankees, I say no, Red Sox. Then if somebody else is like no it was the Yankees, this guy is messing with us. He just put up 100 REP, he's just messing with the system, he has to get 200 REP from him and all the other people that are watching the network to say no it was the Yankees. This can go back and forth for a long time.   Chitra: There's some real examples of this, one with the recent elections and one with the Yankees, I guess.   Matt: Yeah. This came up because one of the most high profile markets last year on Augur, it launched last year, the US midterm elections. There was a market created for who will control the House of Representatives after the 2018 midterm election. This got at least a million, maybe two million dollars, of open bets placed on this outcome, which right now it's worth maybe a little bit under a hundred million dollars after depreciation. But a lot of people bet on this. I was watching the election, I was watching the platform. I didn't interact with it but I knew a guy that was like yeah it looks like the Democrats are gonna take the house. Democrats are gonna take the house.   So everybody's betting on this. Democrats have a strong advantage because we knew fairly early in the polls it was likely they were gonna take a bunch of House seats. Everyone's watching 538.com and the other CNN.com, and as each state goes in, right up until the end, people are still trading on this market. It was set to resolve on December 10th, so the resolution date was... This is enough time for all the House races to get resolved because some of them would drag on for weeks. So we finally get, Republican shares were worth like one percent of the value and 99 percent of the value is Democrat shares. By the end of the night, Democrats had taken the House.   So everybody's getting chill. It sort of settles down. Everybody's just waiting for December 10th so they can get their money. Then like December 7th or something, a couple days before the resolution date, the guy who created this market, he's the creator, and the creator gets a small fee of whatever share of the market, he posts on Reddit and the tagline is I think it just says ‘I am sorry.’ He explains that the goal of this market was always to reflect who will control the House of Representatives immediately after the midterm elections, not who will control the House on January 1st when the newly elected House of Representatives takes office. So it was the only option, according to the way it's worded, I have to report Republicans because they still currently as of today, as of December 10th, still control the House of Representatives. I think the top comment was something like you just want to watch the world burn don't you? Because that's ludicrous. It was very misleadingly worded market question. So this has a lot of implications.   This of course got disputed but you have to think about it for a second. What actually did happen? If you look at the exact wording, yeah the Republicans controlled the House on December 10th. But that was obviously not the intent of the market, not what everyone understood it to be. So what is the right result? So this guy reports Republicans. And then we go into dispute. Somebody puts up a dispute bond for it was the Democrats. I think we're in the fourth dispute, this still isn't resolved. We're in the fourth dispute round, maybe like I think 700 or 1,000 REP has been staked on aggregate outcomes, and we could see this drag on for a long time.   Chitra: So timing I guess is everything when it comes to some of these things. It's how you word the language, what time zone these things are in, how people interpret it and then you dispute it I guess if you don't agree.   Matt: Yeah but it's also, it's not clear what the right answer is. It's sort of like you're dealing with this adversarial malicious genie that will grant your wish but in a way that kills you. You have to, I'm very concerned about this when I saw this happen. It was kind of morbidly funny, but at the same time it was concerning because this is gonna make a lot of people very, very afraid to interact with this platform if they don't trust that somebody's trying to trip them up with careful wording. So this is a dangerous platform to interact with. So that's sort of a gray area. But what we're gonna likely see based on the chit chat and stuff that we're seeing online is that a lot of people are committed to making sure that the Democratic outcome wins because that's what people understood it to be.   There's also another option. There's an option that can be marked invalid. People can say this is an invalid market because the wording was vague or there was no chance, one of the options was never gonna happen. That is built into the platform, and different prediction market protocols have different ways of dealing with this. But we'll probably see a fair resolution out of this. But if we don't, if we see the Republican outcome win because of this literal wording, then the market creator probably bought a lot of those Republican shares real cheap and is gonna make a bunch of money. So good for him, but bad for the entire network because it's gonna really affect the perspective on Augur.   Chitra: Well, lots to talk about. Fascinating conversation. Do you have any closing thoughts? Where can people learn more about you and the work that you're doing?   Matt: Sure. In closing I would encourage everyone to check out the Augur.net and just see what kind of markets are being discussed there. Because there's another thing that you can do. You can just report. You don't have to bet. You can just report on what happens and there's an opportunity while liquidity is low to make money that way. You just make money from reports saying yeah this is what happened, this is what happened, this is what happened. It's a really easy way to interact with the crypto ecosystem and add value to a network and make sure that we have this really robust powerful accurate way of figuring out what happens, which we know is important in this age of questionable facts and false truths. So this maybe is a way to address that, which we probably should talk about more but... I work at Spring Labs, SpringLabs.com. We're not really consumer facing, but if people want to see stuff about identity verification and credit reporting with blockchain stuff, that's what I do.   Chitra: Great. And how can people reach you if they want to talk to you more?   Matt: My name's Matt Smith. I used to not like that name but now I do because it makes it a little bit harder to Google me.   Chitra: Thanks so much. Great having you.   Matt: I appreciate it, Chitra.