Podcast appearances and mentions of David Carson

The smartest people aren't trying to convince you of that.  Instead, they're willing to be dumb...asking questions or trying things that others would dismiss. David Carson a creative CEO and visionary shares his insights on what it really takes to drive innovation and the story behind his Dumbify project and book. You have more fun when you can let go of the need to know everything and take time to let other tell you things. Being open to exploring the dumb idea leads to innovative thinking "Merchandise" your ideas to a friend to get feedback and build on the concept Recognize that you get smarter by being dumber: expertise can be ossifying. Some strategies to try are making an idea worse, removing restrictions and embracing failure. Lean into the pain points to build your creative muscle. CONTACT DAVID: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidcarson2/ Website: https://www.david-carson.com/   Check out my new Perfectionist Trap guide to learn more: https://architectingpodcast.com/index.php/perfectionismtrap/ Give Architecting a Google review- be sure to name the episode! https://g.page/r/CVYGVmEtsUjdEAI/review Stay Inspired, Angela Join the architecting community: YouTube, Instagram,  LinkedIn, Clubhouse, Facebook Interested in sponsoring a show or having me as a guest on your podcast or community? Stop here to get information. Into/outro music Alive by Richard Wasson Copyright 2019

As a Pulitzer Prize-winning photojournalist for the last 25 years at the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, David Carson knows what makes an excellent photograph. But so does AI. Carson is on leave from the paper as a 2025 John S. Knight Journalism Fellow at Stanford University, and he's spent much of the past year studying the collision of AI and photojournalism. Carson shares his insights on the challenges, complications and possible solutions for a world where, increasingly, what you see is different from what you get – and why he sees purported AI "learning" as just another word for theft.

What if the key to innovation lies in embracing the absurd? In this episode, we sit down with David Carson, creator of Dumbify, to explore how “thinking dumber” can unlock powerful creative breakthroughs. Challenging conventional notions of identity and intelligence, we examine how embracing the fear of looking foolish fosters curiosity, adaptability, and deeper problem-solving skills.Together, we navigate the societal constraints that suppress unconventional thinking, uncovering how a beginner's mind and unresolved psychological patterns influence creativity. From Montessori classrooms to cutting-edge tech spaces, we discuss the environments that nurture curiosity, allowing us to accept uncertainty and reframe “I don't know” as a launchpad for discovery.Expanding beyond creativity, we explore the role of identity, vulnerability, and discomfort in reshaping how we approach challenges. Like an athlete refining their craft, we discover how stepping into the discomfort of new ideas can transform not just our metacognitive processes, but our sense of self. We also examine the balance between humor and harsh judgment, cooperation and competition—revealing how innovation thrives in the middle ground.Through David's insights, we uncover a metacognitive approach to creativity—one that celebrates inquiry, welcomes the unexpected, and redefines intelligence as the courage to process differently.Tune in and discover how exploring “dumb” ideas might just be the smartest move you can make.Highlights(04:03) Embracing Dumb Thinking for Success (114 Seconds)(07:52) Embracing Dumb Ideas for Mindfulness (123 Seconds)(12:06) Overcoming Fear of Looking Stupid (96 Seconds)(21:18) Montessori Education Impact on Learning (71 Seconds)(27:56) Fostering Creativity and Trust in Workplace (100 Seconds)(35:05) The Essence of Mediocrity (49 Seconds)(39:08) Creative Collaborations in Fashion Industry (56 Seconds)(53:25) Innovating Through Frustration and Context (75 Seconds)(57:36) Originality Through Diverse Perspectives (75 Seconds)(01:07:35) Approaching Problems With Fresh Eyes (55 Seconds)Chapters(00:00) - Thinking Dumber(07:29) - Embracing Mindfulness for Creative Thinking(13:19) - Reimagining Identity and Productive Thinking(17:37) - Fostering a Curious Mind(21:18) - Creating a Curious and Collaborative Environment(27:22) - Navigating Judgment for Creative Innovation(35:55) - Exploring Middle Ground and Creativity(46:11) - Navigating Self-Identity in Problem Solving(01:00:16) - Embracing Dumb Ideas for InnovationKeywordsDumbify, Thinking Dumber, Innovation, Creativity, Mindfulness, Beginner's Mind, Curiosity, Identity, Self-Improvement, Judgment, Middle Ground, Humor, Collaboration, Improv, Coopetition, Internal Family Systems, Decision-Making, Iteration, Mistakes, Business CultureJOIN US ON INSTAGRAM: @thelightinsidepodcastSUBSCRIBE: pod.link/thelightinsideCredits:Featured Guest: David CarsonExecutive Producer: Jeffrey BeseckerExecutive Program Director: Anna GetzMixing, Engineering, Production and Mastering: Aloft Media Studio

Idea: Taxidermied animals as emotional support animals for situations where you can't have a living emotional support animal, such as if you can't get a doctor's note, you're allergic, or you just can't handle the upkeep of a living pet. Also: it's like the evil "blood diamond" version of a stuffed animal; the horror of seeing someone on a plane having a panic attack while intensely squeezing a dead animal; a Tamagotchi taxidermied animal that you have to care for, or a robotic one which is controlled remotely by a real pet so you can "mute" or disable it on a plane if it's causing trouble; other clever and/or practical uses of taxidermied animals, such as a cup, a fire extinguisher, or a literal drug mule Lucky Lee (instagram.com/luckyleecomedy chelsealuckyleewoudstra.weebly.com) David Carson (Email Newsletter: david-carson.com Blog: dumbify.beehiiv.com) Carl Sobel (linktr.ee/Carl_Sobel_Comedy facebook.com/ComedyNightAtRiverCitySaloon) Krinker (facebook.com/ryan.krinker) Tom Walma (https://creativitywasted.com x.com/thomaswalma twitch.tv/gameymcfitness) This podcast is part of Planet Ant Podcasts (https://planetant.com) This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

David Carson is a counter-intuitive thinker and creative problem-solver with a knack for uncovering genius where others see nonsense. Known for transforming unconventional ideas into groundbreaking solutions, he has helped global brands like American Express, Nike, Coca-Cola, and IKEA build human connections, captivate audiences, and redefine what's possible. As the author of Dumbify and creator of its popular newsletter, Carson inspires individuals and organizations to embrace “dumb” ideas—those that seem foolish at first but often hold the smartest answers. In this interview, we talk about the concept of "dumb thinking," the power of humor to connect with people and make ideas more memorable, Carson's creative process, and how he uses "dumb thinking" to come up with new ideas for his writing and other projects. Want more? Steal my first book, INK BY THE BARREL - SECRETS FROM PROLIFIC WRITERS right now for free. Simply head over to www.brockswinson.com to get your free digital download and audiobook. If you find value in the book, please share it with a friend as we're giving away 100,000 copies this year. It's based on over 400 interviews here at Creative Principles. Enjoy! If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts? It only takes about 60 seconds and it really helps convince some of the hard-to-get guests to sit down and have a chat (simply scroll to the bottom of your iTunes Podcast app and click “Write Review"). Enjoy the show!

Join me for a fascinating conversation with Dumbify founder David Carson, where we dive into the power of so-called “dumb” ideas—and why they might just be the secret to creative brilliance.We'll explore how absurdity, humour, and playfulness can fuel innovation in storytelling, the mental models that help spot good dumb ideas, and how embracing the unconventional can lead to surprising breakthroughs. Plus, we'll touch on bold marketing strategies, the future of creative writing, and why curiosity is the ultimate creative superpower.Get ready to rethink what makes an idea truly smart!Visit David at his website! https://www.david-carson.com/

Star Trek: Generations – Retrospective. Join hosts Trevor and Jason as they discuss the 1994 Box-Office hit with Patrick Stewart, Jonathan Frakes, Brent Spiner and William Shatner Debate/Conversation Topic: An in-depth discussion of Star Trek: Generations, including detailed plot breakdown, historical relevance, critical reaction, and merchandising. Directed by David Carson. Plus much more, tune in now!  

Giving thanks to all of you this week.  We've had some very fun new listeners...so welcome to the community. The card I pulled today was from the book Medicine Cards by Jamie Sams and David Carson.  You can learn more at Medicine Cards – The Discovery of Power Through the Ways of Animals.The team I connect with is called my "Spirit Ohana."  They have specifically requested that I call them my family in Hawaiian.  There is a short podcast covering this discovery if you have interest.I hope you take a few bits of information today and truly know how much I appreciate your love and gratitude for this podcast.Enjoy your holiday (in the US)!We love to hear from you. Send emails to ForOurSpecialKids@gmail.com if you have questions, topics, or an amazing person we should highlight. And, please tell a friend or caregiver about us! Follow Us on Instagram & FaceBook, @ForOurSpecialKids or go to https://www.ForOurSpecialKids.comhttps://uppbeat.io/t/lane-king/journeyLicense code: E3DYP1B4L21HSX8E

THIS VOYAGE, the Treksperts,  MARK A. ALTMAN (author, The Fifty Year Mission, writer/producer, Pandora, Agent X, The Librarians, writer/producer Free Enterprise), DAREN DOCHTERMAN (associate producer, Star Trek: The Motion Picture) and ASHLEY E. MILLER (showrunner; DOTA: Dragon's Blood, writer, X-Men: First Class, Thor) are joined by a slugger's row of STAR TREK's greatest directors in this live and lively panel from STLV featuring ROB BOWMAN (TNG), PAUL LYNCH (TNG), DAVID CARSON (TNG, DS9, Generations), DAVID LIVINGSTON (TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT) and JORDAN CANNING (SNW). Join us for an all-new Inglorious Treksperts live on tape from #STLV. Now on You Tube! **TREKSPERTS+ SUBSCRIBERS NOW GET COMMERCIAL FREE EPISODES ONE WEEK EARLY! SUBSCRIBE TODAY AT TREKSPERTSPLUS.COM** **Join us on our new INGLORIOUS TREKSPERTS DISCORD Channel at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://discord.gg/7kgmJSExeh⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Don't miss us as the TREKSPERTS INGLORIOUS TOUR 2024 LIVE TOUR continues as we beam down to Galaxycon Columbus, OH!  For more information, go to galaxycon.com. Learn all that is learnable about Star Trek in Mark A. Altman & Edward Gross' THE FIFTY-YEAR MISSION, available in hardcover, paperback, digital and audio from St. Maritn's Press.  Follow Inglorious Treksperts at @inglorioustrek on Twitter, Facebook and at @inglorioustreksperts on Instagram. And now follow the Treksperts Briefing Room at @trekspertsBR, an entirely separate Twitter & Instagram feed. "Mark A. Altman is the world's foremost Trekspert" - Los Angeles Times

Friend of the show, David Carson returns to talk about World War Z, "inspired" by the novel by Max Brooks.

Host Graham Sturt sits down with graphic design icon, David Carson. Known for his revolutionary work with Ray Gun magazine and his unconventional, expressive style, David has continually pushed the boundaries of visual communication. Join us as we explore David's unique approach, creative journey, and the philosophies that have shaped his illustrious career. You can find blog posts for this and all our past episodes at monotype.com/podcast.

Episode 190 with James Victore, drops the career advice you need to hear right now. James Victore is a renowned graphic designer, artist, and motivational speaker known for his unapologetically bold and unconventional design work. Author of books such as "Feck Perfuction", James has been featured in museums worldwide including MoMA, and has received numerous accolades throughout his career. Now residing in Texas, James focuses on educating and inspiring creatives through workshops, coaching, and his online presence. He is the force behind the website "Your Work is a Gift" where he offers guidance to those seeking to deepen their creative practice. Get coached by none other than James Victore: https://www.yourworkisagift.com Watch James' channel on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@UCNeCzet_WoNEaysTCgZSdkQ Episode Summary: Join us in this enlightening episode as we delve into the mind of James Victore, a trailblazing designer and artist whose influence and work have shaped the world of creative design. With your host, Evelio Mattos, James reflects on the evolution of design education, the importance of creativity, and the journey from being a creator to becoming an impactful mentor. In a candid and engaging conversation, James discusses the challenges facing today's young designers, the role of social media, and the concept of sustaining creativity amidst life's demands. He emphasizes the importance of maintaining authenticity and curiosity in one's work and sheds light on the significant transitions within the industry, mentioning renowned figures like David Carson and others. Other key topics include the transformation in learning models, the impacts of AI, and James' personal journey from winning prestigious awards to focusing on his true calling as an educator and motivator. Key Takeaways: On Creativity and Play: Maintaining a sense of play and curiosity is crucial for sustainably creative and meaningful design work. Industry Changes: James explores the evolution of the design industry, discussing how specialization and the rise of AI are redefining traditional models, including the potential decline of large design agencies. Authenticity and Confidence: True confidence stems from authenticity; embracing one's unique identity can lead to a more fulfilling and impactful career. Designer to Mentor: Transitioning from being a practicing designer to becoming an educator and coach has allowed James to empower others, highlighting the importance of asking for what you want. Educational Evolution: The traditional university model is increasingly outdated with new, more dynamic and tailored approaches to learning emerging in its place. Notable Quotes: "I love setting students on fire, I want to get them before they get all these preconceived notions." – James Victore "The things that made you weird as a kid make you great today." – James Victore "Tell them who you are. Don't let people guess." – James Victore "I'm not in the art industry or design industry; I'm in the James Victore industry." – James Victore "I'm the party. It comes with me." – James Victore Resources: James Victore Instagram Your Work is a Gift "Feck Perfuction" by James Victore For more profound insights and detailed discussion, be sure to listen to the full episode. Stay tuned for more enlightening conversations with industry leaders.

Send us a Text Message.On this episode of Fabulous Film and Friends we are looking back at two middling, lackluster sci-fi adventures from 1994 that have mysteriously stood the test of time: Stargate, directed by Roland Emmerich and starring Kurt Russell, James Spader, John Diehl, Jaye Davidson, Viveca Lindfors, Erick Avari, Alexis Cruz, Mili Avital, Leon Rippey, French Stewart, and Djimon Hounsou, which was released in October of ‘94 then Star Trek: Generations which was released a month later, was directed by David Carson and starred Patrick Stewart, Jonathan Frakes, Brent Spiner, Levar Burton, Michael Dorn, Marina Sirtis, Gates McFaddon, Malcolm McDowell, Walter Koenig, James Doohan and William Shatner.  I'm Gino Caputi your host, and back for more, especially if Star Trek is to be discussed I have series regular and IT tech Burton Brown, and representing the fresh eyes of the younger, non-cynical generation, author hypnotherapist Joe Field.  The synopses: In Stargate, a crack squad of US Special Forces led by Colonel Jack O'Neill with an assist from archeologist Dr. Daniel Jackson travel through a mysterious circular dimensional portal that was discovered in Giza Egypt in 1928 and kept a secret by the military until the mysteries of the portal could be unlocked. Once on the other side, Jackson and O'Neil discover they are on the planet Abydos with a culture very similar to ancient Egypt. There they befriend the locals and do battle with the god Ra, revealed to be an alien who has enslaved humans on this planet and is intent on destroying the human race on Earth through the Stargate.  In Star Trek Generations a single-minded, pleasure-seeking and murderous Dr. Tholian Soran attempts to destroy an entire solar system in order to get back into a heaven-like, temporal portal in the universe called The Nexus. It is up to the crew of the Starship Enterprise D, led by Captain Jean Luc Picard to stop Soran. Unfortunately, Picard proves to be too weak for the task and finds his ship and crew destroyed, the mission failed and he himself is trapped in the Nexus. Except…Captain James T. Kirk is also in the Nexus having landed in it 78 years earlier the Enterprise B encountered The Nexus on a rescue mission. Picard and Kirk join forces, leave the Nexus and stop Soran through the power of team work.  San Francisco Chronicle Film Critic Mick LaSalle, when summarizing the 1994 Year in Film wrote, “In 20 years will anyone still be watching Stargate? Or Star Trek Generations?”  I agreed with him wholeheartedly that these films were nothing but forgettable, but here we 30 years later and are still watching these works. Add to that, Stargate has had five spinoff  TV series on the subject and they're still planning cinematic reboots. Star Trek Generations was listed implausibly as a one of the great epics in the 2004 book Epic movies and will forever be remembered as the film that killed off Captain Kirk.  So, the burning question is WHY have these films endured?  Find out! The Youtube Version:https://youtu.be/K-irgi8Vp88 Follow the FFF Facebook page!https://www.facebook.com/groups/fabulousfilmandfriends 

ESPECIALLY IN THE LATE 1800s, the Oregon frontier was no stranger to acts of judicial lynching – where the local legal system was corrupted to provide cover for murder. What's more unusual, though, was an 1852 event that amounted to judicial cattle rustling. The cattle that the Benton County courts rustled belonged to a woman named Letitia Carson, and she was the widow of a recently naturalized Irishman named David Carson — or, rather, she would have been David's widow, if the two of them had been allowed to marry. But they weren't, because Letitia Carson was black, and a former slave — born in Kentucky in the late 1810s. The other factor that makes this episode of judicial rustling unusual is that Letitia took the thieves to court — and won. Twice. (Corvallis, Benton County; 1850s, 1860s) (For text and pictures, see https://offbeatoregon.com/1912b.letitia-carson-fought-racist-neighbor-in-court.html)

Guest host Christine McDonald welcomes guests David Carson, Dorothy Jackson, and Daniel LaCroix on this month's Minneapolis A.I.R. episode! Hear about how the City of Minneapolis’ Native employees have organized the newest employee resource group, and learn about how the City of Minneapolis Human Resources is heading into the community for a unique career fair…

Directed by David Carson, Star Trek Generations is the science fiction film serving as the seventh entry in the Star Trek film series. Luke and Jae celebrate the 30th anniversary of the movie that featured cast members from the 1960s TV series Star Trek and the 1987 sequel series The Next Generation, including William Shatner and Patrick Stewart. In the 23rd century, the Starship Enterprise is dispatched to the scene of a giant energy field about to engulf two ships. Capt. Kirk (William Shatner) averts calamity, but is exposed to the field and presumed dead. Years later, the Enterprise's new commander, Capt. Picard (Patrick Stewart), learns that one of the disaster's survivors, Dr. Soran (Malcolm McDowell), plans to enter the field by destroying a neighboring star. Picard now must collaborate with an unlikely ally in order to stop him.

Hosted by Andrew Quinn and Darren Mooney, The 250 is a weekly trip through some of the best (and worst) movies ever made, as voted for by Internet Movie Database Users. New episodes are released Saturdays at 6pm GMT. This week, David Carson's Star Trek: Generations. Disaster strikes during the maiden cruise of the USS Enterprise-B: James T. Kirk is killed in a freak accident, an encounter with a cosmic force beyond all reckoning. Nearly a century later, Jean-Luc Picard commands another Enterprise. Grappling with horrific news from home, Picard finds himself drawn into the sinister machinations of the mysterious Tolias Soran. A survivor of that fateful tragedy that killed Kirk, Soran is pursuing something beyond even Picard's deepest imaginings. At time of recording, it was not ranked on the list of the best movies of all time on the Internet Movie Database.

Hilarious show enjoy it :-)Just here to entertain myself man

Things don't look so good for old diaper Donald and I'm here for it :-) #TUCSONTRISTA SIGN ME UP TO RUN FOR SHERIFF IN ARIZONA! GO.AZSOS.GOV/xww9 Funny show, man! TODAY ON MY PODCAST POLITICS AF THANKS FOR 3:20 K IF IT'S JUST LAW ENFORCEMENT: O'BRIEN THE CATHY O'BRIEN STORY! Do you remember when this story broke in the early 90s, Cathy O'Brien a mind control victim of the government program called #mkultra wrote a book called"transformation of America, about being sex-trafficked to political leaders at the time! I was working at President Clinton's interagency Council on women at the US state department in Washington DC, when my boss gave me a copy of this explosive tell-all book, it was so scandalous outrageous crazy and horrific that nobody did anything about it at the time! But it is a foreshadowing of things to come! Don't it remind you of #JeffreyEpstein and Israel's #Honeytrap operation to compromise our celebrities & elected so-called leaders by taking them to Epstein's Private Island dubbed by media #LolitaExpress; for massage! That actually involved sex trafficking minors and therefore means to blackmail them into supporting Israel #genocide against #Palestinians. Note: #JoeBiden is not mentioned but remember he spoke at Sen. Byrd's funeral? Sen. bird was O'Brien's "handler". He was also KKK Grand wizard! Just sayin but anyway this is why y'all need to get me on the ballot

Just here to entertain myself man

I read the first two chapters of medicine cards by Jamie sams and David Carson illustrations by Angela Wernike St Martin's press New York 1988, in search of advice on how to get back my service dog, Dr Baker. If you would like to go find me/10543a02 & PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO RUN FOR SHERIFF IN HASHTAG #TUCSON #ARIZONA: GO.AZSOS.GOV/xww9 so I can alleviate suffering in my community; please see my sub stack for my complete platform to run for Sheriff and president of the United States; I filed form 2 Young people get me on the ballot! & THANKS TO MY REZFAM! #PascuaYaqui tribe; & #TohonoOodham; and thanks to my church community & fellow & sister @christiandems, for getting me on the ballot!

Do you remember when this story broke in the early 90s, Cathy O'Brien a mind control victim of the government program called #mkultra wrote a book called"transformation of America, about being sex-trafficked to political leaders at the time! I was working at President Clinton's interagency Council on women at the US state department in Washington DC, when my boss gave me a copy of this explosive tell-all book, it was so scandalous outrageous crazy and horrific that nobody did anything about it at the time! But it is a foreshadowing of things to come! Don't it remind you of #JeffreyEpstein and Israel's #Honeytrap operation to compromise our celebrities & elected so-called leaders by taking them to Epstein's Private Island dubbed by media #LolitaExpress; for massage! That actually involved sex trafficking minors and therefore means to blackmail them into supporting Israel #genocide against #Palestinians. Note: #JoeBiden is not mentioned but remember he spoke at Sen. Byrd's funeral? Sen. bird was O'Brien's "handler". He was also KKK Grand wizard! Just sayin but anyway this is why y'all need to get me on the ballot

“Once you have broken down the rules, literally anything is possible.'”In the business of magazine design, few names resonate as profoundly as Neville Brody. And, to this day, he lives by those words. Renowned for his groundbreaking work and commitment to pushing design boundaries at magazines like The Face, Arena, Per Lui, and others, Brody is a true auteur in the world of design. We talked to him at the launch of his spectacular new monograph, The Graphic Language of Neville Brody 3.Nurtured on 1970s British punk music, which rejected anything that appeared self-indulgent or overwrought, Brody found the perfect launch pad at The Face, the London-based music, fashion, and culture monthly, created by editor Nick Logan in 1980.The Face inspired an array of fellow magazine rule-breakers, including the late Tibor Kalman, David Carson, and Fabien Baron, who calls Brody's work “powerful, aggressive, and simple.”Since then, Brody's journey in graphic design has been marked by a relentless, almost unforgiving pursuit of innovation. His magazine design challenged conventional norms and redefined visual storytelling. Brody's design approach is characterized by a rejection of conventional grid systems and editorial hierarchies, and a willingness to break free from established design rules.And he thinks magazines today are missing a giant opportunity:“That's the beauty of print, that you can't achieve in the same way digitally. Digital is so commoditized. We're not expressing content anymore. We're just delivering it.Neville Brody's legacy in magazine design lies in his fearless approach to challenging the status quo and his ability to capture the zeitgeist of his time. By pushing the boundaries of traditional graphic design, he not only influenced the look and feel of magazines but also inspired a generation of designers to embrace innovation, experimentation, and a spirit of creative rebellion. Brody's work continues to be celebrated for its enduring impact on the evolution of graphic design and its role in shaping the visual language of contemporary media. Print Is Dead (Long Live Print!) is a production of MO.D ©2021–2024

David Carson is Today's guest. David contributed to The Sound of Wonder: Interviews from the Science Fiction Radio Show, Vol. 1 & Vol. 2 --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/mmftg/message

Do you want ideas for your next cyber security training/awareness project? In this episode Kim, Hannah and Victoria speak about: - Ideas for cyber security training/awareness in organisations. - What to do when you are seeing no results on your goals. - How to create your ultimate life. Here are the resources mentioned: - Creator hub: https://creatorhub.belvistastudios.com/ - JORJ Creative: https://www.jorjcreative.com.au/ - David Carson: https://www.davidcarsondesign.com/ Our intent with Belvista Studios' Insights is to support others in the industry to take their instructional design and eLearning skills to the next level by sharing raw insights into what we are learning as a team at Belvista Studios.

This podcast is a commentary and does not contain any copyrighted material of the reference source. We strongly recommend accessing/buying the reference source at the same time. ■Reference Source https://www.ted.com/talks/david_carson_design_and_discovery ■Post on this topic (You can get FREE learning materials!) https://englist.me/206-academic-words-reference-from-david-carson-design-and-discovery-ted-talk/ ■Youtube Video https://youtu.be/XJADiF8b3C8 (All Words) https://youtu.be/dHsqkQ49erw (Advanced Words) https://youtu.be/ZyINBgkF47c (Quick Look) ■Top Page for Further Materials https://englist.me/ ■SNS (Please follow!)

Apple called him "a pioneer with profound impact". Newsweek said he "changed the public face of graphic design". In 1991 David Carson redesigned Surfer Magazine and established a now iconic graphic design style seated in raw human emotion which led to numerous awards and an expansive client list including Audi, Nike, Obama, and album art for Nine Inch Nails. A lifelong surfer and 2018 inductee into the East Coast Surfing Hall of Fame, Carson discusses the value of failing publicly, the importance of humanity in design, and why it is impossible to not communicate. Enjoy! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today on THE ESSENTIAL SOUNDTRACKS, Erik Woods, Robert Daniels, and Randy Andrews continue their journey through the STAR TREK films and their soundtracks as they discuss the seventh movie in the series, STAR TREK: GENERATIONS. You'll hear them discuss the film in great detail including such topics as the new uniforms, deleted scenes, Kirk's death, the destruction of The Enterprise D and more. Also covered in great length is Dennis McCarthy's underappreciated score. WARNING: We do talk about Star Trek: Picard Season 3 in this episode so if you haven't seen the new series yet, you've been warned;  there are SPOILERS in this episode. STAR TREK: GENERATIONS was released on November 18, 1994. Malcolm McDowell joined cast members from the 1960s television show STAR TREK and the 1987 sequel series STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION. In the film, Captain Jean-Luc Picard (Patrick Stewart) of the USS Enterprise-D joins forces with Captain James T. Kirk (William Shatner) to stop the villain Tolian Soran (Malcolm McDowell) from destroying a planetary system in his attempt to return to an extra-dimensional realm known as the Nexus. The film was directed by TV veteran David Carson. The original soundtrack album was released at the time of the film's release on GNP Crescendo Records. It had a generous amount of music on the album, close to 45 minutes worth with 16 minutes of Star Trek sound effects from the film. In November of 2012, GNP Crescendo released an expanded version of the score featuring two full CDs of music expanding the run time to OVER two hours. The score was recorded by Robert Fernandez at Paramount Pictures Scoring Stage M, McCarthy conducted the Hollywood Studio Orchestra. Mark McKenzie, William Ross, and Brad Warnaar provided orchestrations. The Executive Album Reissue Producer was Dennis McCarthy. The Executive Album Producers for GNP/Crescendo Records were Neil Norman and Melanie Clarkson. The Album Reissue Producers were Ford A. Thaxton, James Nelson and Mark Banning. The Project Consultant was Lukas Kendall, with liner notes by liner notes by Jeff Bond and Lukas Kendall. The GNP Crescendo album is currently out of print! The Essential Soundtracks Theme by Alexander Schiebel —— Special thanks to our Patreon supporters: Matt DeWater, David Ballantyne, Joe Wiles, Maxime, William Welch, Tim Burden, Alan Rogers, Dave Williams, Max Hamulyák, Jeffrey Graebner, Douglas Lacey, Don Mase, Victor Field, Jochen Stolz, Emily Mason, Eric Skroch, Alexander Schiebel, Alphonse Brown, John Link, Andreas Wennmyr, Matt Berretta, Eldaly Morningstar, Jim Wilson, Glenn McDorman, Chris Malone, Steve Karpicz, Deniz Çağlar, Brent Osterberg, Jérôme Flick, Sarah Brouns, Aaron Collins, Randall Derchan, Angela Rabatin, Michael Poteet, Larry Reese, Thomas Tinneny, William Burke, Clint Morgan, Rudy Amaya, Eric Marvin, Stacy Livitsanis, Rick Laird, Carl Wonders, Michael Poteet, Nathan Blumenfeld, Daniel Herrin —— Cinematic Sound Radio is fully licensed to play music by SOCAN. Support us on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/cinematicsoundradio Check out our NEW Cinematic Sound Radio TeePublic Store! https://www.teepublic.com/stores/cinematic-sound-radio Cinematic Sound Radio Web: http://www.cinematicsound.net Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/cinsoundradio Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cinematicsound Cinematic Sound Radio Fanfare and Theme by David Coscina https://soundcloud.com/user-970634922 Bumper voice artist: Tim Burden http://www.timburden.com

I really enjoy talking to people who are full of energy because some of that energy rubs off. Bob Kimmel CEO of K2 Insurance Services' return to the podcast with K2 CAT's Head Underwriter David Carson is a case in point. Here we find Bob buzzing with the possibilities that significant new investment from Warburg Pincus can afford the firm as it looks to accelerate growth and double in size to a $3bn GWP platform over the next 4 to 5 years. David's also full of energy after the decisive rupture in the reinsurance market at 1.1 has produced what he describes as the best market in property cat since 1993. This is an incredibly candid and fluid discussion. Bob is very open about the potential squeeze that may be coming for MGA and other intermediaries' margins as reinsurers and carriers push back hard on commissions and trim underperforming agencies from their portfolios. But he's also really happy about having fresh dry powder to make the most of cooling valuations and special situations as interest rates rise and debt-heavy buyers are priced out of out of a hitherto frothy M&A market. Bob also explains why being a hybrid carrier with a balance sheet was great when K2 was smaller and needed to incubate underwriting talent, but became a distraction to the core business as the group scaled to the $1.5bn of gross premiums it now underwrites on behalf of the market. This is fascinating under-the-hood stuff and no aspect of the market and K2's plans is left uncovered. It's also delivered at an almost breathless pace and with great rapport between the Bob, David and this interviewer. If you want to get well ahead of emerging trends in the fast-developing MGA world, this is absolutely essential listening. NOTES: Bob speaks first. The abbreviation LOC snuck in. It means a Letter of Credit. LINKS We thank our naming sponsor AdvantageGo: https://www.advantagego.com/

Today we continue the conversation that we began with Dean Owen in the episode:  Dean Owen – Now is too late – the Rapidly Changing World of Corporate Communications – Part 1    Show Notes 1:00 Reputational Crisis 4:00 What should nonprofit Board Members do in when an nonprofit organizations has a crisis 6:30 The Five C's - Conflict, Criticism, Controversy, Celebrities and Catastrophes. 10:30 The first 100 days for a new Chief Communications Officer 14:40 Dean's response to the quote by Sidney Harris – “Information is giving out. Communication is getting through” 17:50 Dean's response to David Carson's quote “Never mistake legibility for communication” 19:00 Dean's reflections on writing the book November 22, 1963: Reflections on the Life, Assassination, and Legacy of John F. Kennedy   Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas Now is Too Late - Survival in an Era of Instant News by Gerald R. Baron November 22, 1963: Reflections on the Life, Assassination, and Legacy of John F. Kennedy by Dean Owen   Connect Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Tommy's LinkedIn Profile Tommy's Twitter Profile Dean Owen's LinkedIn Profile

What's up! Happy Hump Day! Joining me this week is Nike's Master Trainer, Dave Carson. Dave and I discuss mental health, why and how he got into the fitness space with Nike and what it means to him to be More Than Athlete and much more. DeJuan Marrero Social Media YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/channel/UC5uNsn8rQXbVM2wOAoVC1hw?view_as=subscriber Spotify Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2lcn... Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dejuanmarrero/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedmpodcast_/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/dejuanmarrero?lan... Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dejuan.marrero

Everyone in France knows Kung Fu. Also, my guest, David Carson, has published some books of Sci-fi interviews. Find them here and here. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/mmftg/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/mmftg/support

In this episode, Tiny and I continue our series on Carrie with a review of David Carson and Bryan Fuller's 2002 TV movie adaptation starring Angela Bettis. We also discuss a couple of recent Stephen King related news items and check-ins.   Become a patron for exclusive audio content and early access to episodes at Patreon.com/ObsessiveViewer.   Timestamps   Show Start – 00:40 News and Check-ins - 02:49   Carrie (2002) – 22:15   Non-Spoiler - 24:43 Spoiler - 56:16   Outro – 1:13:54   Related Links   Stephen King Reveals What Book He Wants Adapted - ScreenRant Paul Greengrass To Adapt & Direct Stephen King's New Bestseller ‘Fairy Tale' - Deadline Castle Rock Kitchen: Wicked Good Recipes from the World of Stephen King by Theresa Carle-Sanders (with a foreword by Stephen King) - Amazon Associate Link   Stephen King Content on Our Patreon Our Patreon Homepage   Support Obsessive Viewer Podcasts Here Tower Junkies: The Masterlist Tower Junkies: Episode Archive As Good As It Gets - Official Homepage   Matt's Stephen King Short Story Collection Twitter Threads   Just After Sunset Everything's Eventual Hearts in Atlantis Nightmares & Dreamscapes Four Past Midnight   Obsessive Viewer - Our weekly movie and TV discussion and review podcast. Obsessive Viewer Presents: Anthology – Matt's solo podcast exploring science fiction anthology storytelling in television's first golden age starting with The Twilight Zone.   Mic Info Matt: ElectroVoice RE20 into RØDEcaster Pro II - Processing: High Pass Filter, DeEsser, Compressor, and Master Compellor enabled (Recorded in the Living Room) Tiny - Samson Q2U via USB on Google Meet   Tower Junkies   Subscribe   Apple Podcasts Stitcher Google Podcasts Spotify TuneIn Radio RSS Feed   Social Media   Facebook Twitter Instagram     Episodes by Category     News – Covering news items related to Stephen King and The Dark Tower Palaver – General discussions about Stephen King and/or The Dark Tower series Khef – Reviews and discussions of books and comics in The Dark Tower series Novel Reviews – Reviews of Stephen King (and related) novels Novella Reviews – Reviews of Stephen King (and related) novellas Short Story Reviews – Reviews of Stephen King (and related) short stories and short story collections Comic Reviews – Reviews of Stephen King (and related) comic books and comic adaptations Movie Reviews – Reviews of Stephen King (and related) movie adaptations TV Reviews – Reviews of Stephen King (and related) TV adaptations Commentary Tracks – Special commentary track recordings that can be listened to while watching the title or simply as a podcast episode Interviews – Interviews with people with special ties to the work of Stephen King Special Eps – Episodes that don't fit into the other categories; usually announcement episodes pertaining to the podcast itself     Matt's Top 19 King Novels     11/22/63 It Wizard and Glass (The Dark Tower IV) Pet Sematary Misery The Shining The Drawing of the Three (The Dark Tower II) The Dark Tower (The Dark Tower VII) The Stand The Waste Lands (The Dark Tower III) Under the Dome Billy Summers Christine Doctor Sleep Wolves of the Calla (The Dark Tower V) The Dead Zone The Gunslinger (The Dark Tower I) Revival End of Watch     Matt's Top 19 King Adaptations     The Shawshank Redemption (1994) The Shining (1980) It (2017) 11.22.63 (2016) - Miniseries The Mist (2007) Doctor Sleep (2019) Misery (1990) Castle Rock (2018) - Series Creepshow (1982) Stand by Me (1986) Gerald's Game (2017) Christine (1983) Pet Sematary (1989) The Dead Zone (1983) Cujo (1983) Carrie (1976) The Shining (1997) - Miniseries In the Tall Grass (2019) Sometimes They Come Back (1991)     Tiny's Top 19 King Novels     The Dark Tower (The Dark Tower VII) Misery The Stand The Shining The Drawing of the Three (The Dark Tower II) The Gunslinger (The Dark Tower I) Christine Wizard and Glass (The Dark Tower IV) It Cujo The Dead Zone Mr. Mercedes Gerald's Game Pet Sematary Wolves of the Calla (The Dark Tower V) Salem's Lot Under the Dome 11/22/63 The Waste Lands (The Dark Tower III)     Tiny's Top 19 King Adaptations     Doctor Sleep (2019) The Shawshank Redemption (1994) It (2017) Christine (1983) The Shining (1980) Stand By Me (1986) The Mist (2007) Misery (1990) Creepshow (1982) The Green Mile (1999) Apt Pupil (1998) Geralds Game (2017) The Outsider (2019) - Miniseries The Stand (1994) The Shining (1997) - Miniseries Lisey's Story (2021) - Miniseries 1922 (2017) 11/22/63 (2016) - Miniseries It (1990) - Miniseries

“Angela Bettis! Angela Bettis! Angela Bettis!” said David Carson into the camera, and poof! She was there to provide one of the few redeeming qualities in this made-for-TV wad. Directed by the guy that directed Captain Kirk's death and co-starring Dualla from Battlestar Galactica, this movie features Windows 98 screensaver-grade CGI a flat, lifeless retelling of the story from the same era at the mini-series version of The Shining. Join us for part 2 out our 3-part series of Carrie: Who Wore It Best on this most October 2022est episode of Loathsome Things: A Podcast in which two jerks talk about the horror movies they watched and assumed you would like to listen to that! If you would like to recommend a movie, tell us howe we can get Angela Bettis to be on our show, or ask us horror movie-related questions, you can do so by reaching out to us on Twitter: @LoathsomePod Instagram: @LoathsomePod Facebook: @LoathsomePodcast Email: LoathsomeThings@gmail.com The Loathsome Things Official Top 10 Greatest Horror Movies of All Time List (of those we've reviewed for an episode of Loathsome Things: A Horror Movie Podcast) (1) Brian De Palma's Carrie (1976) (2) Rose Glass' Saint Maud (2019) (3) Bob Clark's Black Christmas (1974) (4) George A Romero's Night of the Living Dead (1968) (5) Alex Garland's Men (2022) (6) Miike Takashi's Audition (1999) (7) Bob Clark's Deathdream (1974) (8) David Prior's The Empty Man (2020) (9) Frank Henenlotter's Basket Case (1982) (10) José Mojica Marins' At Midnight I'll Take Your Soul (1964)   Honorable Mentions: Beyond the Door III (1989) – Not a great horror movie, but so much fun to watch! The Pit (1981) – Watch this coming-of-age story about seeing boobs and feeding beasts!

Skorpion. 1963 in Bad Homburg geboren. Meine Laufbahn als Gestalter begann mit der Covergestaltung für die eigene Band »Neue Mode«. Es folgten Fanzines und Magazine wie »Der Fürst« und »Das Herz«. All dies mündete in einem ersten Job bei Meiré und Meiré (»Design ist Orientierung«) als Grafikassistent. In der frühen Selbstständigkeit mit »LAW« (Laarman und Weil, Lust, Arbeit, Wahrheit) wurde ich erstmals mit der digitalen Transformation konfrontiert. Als Untermieter beim ersten Mac-Händler im Rhein-Main-Gebiet tauschte ich rasch den Rapidograph und das Skalpell gegen Mac Paint aus. Meine Rolle als Grafiker bei Tassilo von Grolman prägte mein holistisches Designverständnis. Es folgte die Karriere in globalen Agenturnetzwerken wie Saatchi & Saatchi, TBWA und Leo Burnett. Bei »Leo« leitete ich eine eigene Unit für »Experience Marketing«. Geprägt von der langjährigen Tätigkeit für die Marke Marlboro. Einerseits die content platform »Marlboro Network, The Pulse of America«, in der ich Kreativdirektor und Trendscout/Cool Hunter in Personalunion sein durfte sowie der Forschung an dem »Brand Recognition Code« der Marke. Eine globale Studie mit Designers Republic, Pentagram, Tomato und David Carson bildete deren Basis. Mit dem »Lab01«, einem Zukunftspavillon an der Schnittstelle aus Science und Popkulturen für DaimlerChrysler auf der Expo 2000 fand sich 1999 schließlich meine gestalterisch wirkungsvollste Heimat bei und für Atelier Markgraph. Von 2001 bis 2003 wechselte ich zu J. Walter Thomson, leitete dort Teile der Kreation als CD sowie die Tochterfirmen für Experiences »Thompson Live Communication« und den Designsatelliten »Thompson Brand Design«. Die vielschichte »MultiChannel« Einführung der Marke Becks Gold war ein Highlight. Sowie medienübergreifende Arbeiten für AEG, Rolex und den Onlinebroker der Sparkassengruppe. 2003 kehrte ich schließlich zu »AM« (Atelier Markgraph) zurück. Seit 2005 Geschäftsführer und seit 2016 nun auch Mit Inhaber und somit Gesellschafter. Vielschichtige Projekte in Corporate und Culture sind weiterhin mein Antrieb.

Mark & Anna Casadei are a retired military family of the U.S. Air Force and a filmmaking team from Nashville, Tennessee. Together, they have written numerous award-winning screenplays. Mark has directed/produced both corporate commercials and short films and Anna has authored over 30+ feature screenplays and produced several short films.   They are currently contracted on two romantic comedies with MPCA and their current thriller/horror film, The Benefactor, is starring Malcolm McDowell with David Carson directing and Mark & Anna producing. Their buddy comedy script is in development with a UK production team and is set to start filming late 2022. Anna has her masters in screenwriting certificate from UCLA and has been in the forefront of creating local film opportunities with Mark to hire more women both in front of and behind the camera. Mark is also an accomplished Broadway musician and stage director and hires military veteran talents to act or take on vital behind-the-camera roles. Connect with your host Kaia Alexander: https://entertainmentbusinessleague.com/ https://twitter.com/thisiskaia Produced by Stuart W. Volkow P.G.A.

¿Un diseñador gráfico freelance debería o no debería tener un estilo visual propio? Esa es una gran pregunta que produce muchísimo debate en nuestro sector dado que, por un lado, se supone que nuestro trabajo es servir a nuestro cliente adoptando el estilo que le convenga y, por otro, tenemos a superestrellas del diseño gráfico como David Carson o Jessica Walsh, que precisamente son famosos por haber desarrollado un estilo único.¿Qué estrategia deberías adoptar siendo diseñador gráfico freelance? Te comparto mi experiencia, algunas reflexiones y mis mejores trucos para desarrollar tu estilo - si quieres hacerlo.

¿Un diseñador gráfico freelance debería o no debería tener un estilo visual propio? Esa es una gran pregunta que produce muchísimo debate en nuestro sector dado que, por un lado, se supone que nuestro trabajo es servir a nuestro cliente adoptando el estilo que le convenga y, por otro, tenemos a superestrellas del diseño gráfico como David Carson o Jessica Walsh, que precisamente son famosos por haber desarrollado un estilo único.¿Qué estrategia deberías adoptar siendo diseñador gráfico freelance? Te comparto mi experiencia, algunas reflexiones y mis mejores trucos para desarrollar tu estilo - si quieres hacerlo.

This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Gerard Robinson and Cara Candal talk with Arif Panju, a managing attorney with the Institute for Justice and co-counsel in the U.S. Supreme Court school choice case, Carson v. Makin; and David Carson, the lead plaintiff. Panju shares the key legal contours of Carson v. Makin and the potential impact of […]

This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Gerard Robinson and Cara Candal talk with Arif Panju, a managing attorney with the Institute for Justice and co-counsel in the U.S. Supreme Court school choice case, Carson v. Makin; and David Carson, the lead plaintiff. Panju shares the key legal contours of Carson v. Makin and the potential impact of the Court’s decision in favor of the plaintiffs. Source

This week on “The Learning Curve,” co-hosts Gerard Robinson and Cara Candal talk with Arif Panju, a managing attorney with the Institute for Justice and co-counsel in the U.S. Supreme Court school choice case, Carson v. Makin; and David Carson, the lead plaintiff. Panju shares the key legal contours of Carson v. Makin and the potential impact of the Court's decision in favor of the plaintiffs. Source

As a former professional basketball player who is now a NIKE Global Master Trainer C.S.C.S with over 15 years of experience David has a wealth of experience in this industry. David's shift from his own athletic career shifted forever June 5, 2010 when he was in a career ending car accident. The journey out of depression came from helping my mom lose 150 lbs in a year. From then on he knew his calling was to help others. As someone who has seen every extreme in his own health journey he understands how important it is to have a knowledgable, understanding and caring team in your corner. That is why he created 24Life. With clients from every major professional sport, over 100 Division 1 clients to the everyday athlete 24Life is committed to improving performance. 24Life is more than personal training it is about a lifestyle change, one that you will be able to sustain you for the rest of your life.24Life os here to help you reach that next level. Lets get it!!! Coach Dave's Website: http://www.davidcarson24life.com Instagram: @24lifedc Nike Training Club App: https://www.nike.com/ntc-app Mother's Day Tribute to Coach Dave's Mom: "We are not what happens to us, we are how we respond to it." -Marjorie Carson

In this episode of the Bluebell Podcast Glyn is joined by our French correspondent – Paul! And without any messing about we start the podcast with a mention of both bluebells and France, and Paul's endless battle to stop his French ruin from crumbling around him (OK it's not that bad but maintaining it is like painting the Forth Road Bridge. Or owning a yacht. Or a horse!) Once again it's bluebell season and regular followers of Hidden Wiltshire will know we like the odd bluebell (or clochette as they're called in France). We've seen some nice bluebell photographs in the Facebook Group from both Elaine Perkins (Bentley Wood) and Glyn (Oakfrith Wood) and we've no doubt there will be a lot more to come! They are present in abundance in France (both blue and white) as well as early-purple and green-winged orchids but we won't be sharing photographs of those as it's not Wiltshire! It's been around three weeks since the last podcast now that we've moved to monthly broadcasts. But with Glyn's week on Dartmoor and Paul having relocated to France for a while, we've not got a lot to report. But before he went Paul and his usual walking buddy Stu did manage a walk to Grovely Wood which began with sublime coffee and cake at the café at Langford Lakes. Whilst many people know of the Lakes it's surprising how many have never visited, or at least haven't been for years as was the case for Stu and Paul. It's well worth the effort. Similarly, whilst most people are familiar with Grovely Wood, the guys had an amazing encounter there in a hidden part of the wood. You can read all about this in Paul's blog on the website using the link below. This may well feature in a future podcast as this delivered one of life's special and unexpected moments. In conjunction with Wiltshire Museum we've put together a new programme of guided walks led by Glyn and Paul. These are ticket only events and Wiltshire Museum will be advertising them on their website soon. We will let Hidden Wiltshire followers know as soon as tickets become available but if you subscribe to alerts about new blogs on the website you won't miss out. The main feature of this episode of the podcast is an interview we did with farmer Tim Daw a few weeks ago. Tim has farmed in the Pewsey Vale for decades and is now semi-retired. (Do farmers ever retire?) But instead of buying a yacht or taking up golf, in 2014 he decided to build a long barrow which he calls a Novolithic Long Barrow. As his website says “It has internal chambers with niches and is used as a columbarium or place for cremated remains in urns to be kept.” And “The Long Barrow at All Cannings is a spiritual place where people of any or no faith can come to remember and give thanks for the lives of their loved ones.”  It was a real privilege to interview Tim on a beautiful sunny day at the long barrow and to have a guided tour of the interior. Despite being surrounded by the remains of so many people it really was the most calming and spiritual of places. And like any good long barrow it is aligned to the sunrise of the winter solstice when the sun illuminates the internal stone passageway. It is possible to book a tour of the interior of the long barrow at Tim's website linked below. The entry fee goes towards the upkeep of the barrow, but you can visit the exterior for free at any time. However we think it's worth every penny to see the interior which is a very special place indeed. Our conversation with Tim was wide ranging and fascinating. Just like his near neighbour and farmer David Carson, Tim Daw has a keen interest in history and archaeology. How can you not living in Pewsey Vale? So apart from a conversation about the long barrow itself we also chatted about the wider area and in particular the mythical “white donkey”! Then on to the wrap up: Steve Dixon's piece leading into our main subject today is called “Play Dead”. But there was no play acting in Tim's long barrow! As ever the piece in the introduction and at the end of the podcast is entitled “The Holloway”. Don't forget to check out the Hidden Wiltshire online shop on the website if you'd like to help us keep the lights on. Both Hidden Wiltshire books can be purchased there. The second book is also available at Devizes Bookshop, Wiltshire Museum in Devizes and now Wiltshire's libraries. And don't forget to subscribe to the Hidden Wiltshire Newsletter from the website. You can also subscribe to alerts about new Blogs. Links: You can read Paul's blog about Langford Lakes and Grovely Wood here Grovely Wood and the Woodsman All Cannings Long Barrow All Cannings Long Barrow Glyn's photographs can be seen on his Instagram feed @coy_cloud He is also very active on Twitter where his username is @Glyndle Paul's photography can be found on his website at Paul Timlett Photography and on Instagram at @tragicyclist Steve Dixon's sound art can be found on Soundcloud where his username is River and Rail Steve Dixon River and Rail. His photographs can be found on Instagram at @stevedixon_creative and his graphic design business website is at Steve Dixon Creative And finally you'll find the Hidden Wiltshire online shop here Hidden Wiltshire Shop  and a link to Glyn's blog about the latest book and how to purchase a copy here Hidden Wiltshire from near and far

ESPECIALLY IN THE LATE 1800s, the Oregon frontier was no stranger to acts of judicial lynching – where the local legal system was corrupted to provide cover for murder. What's more unusual, though, was an 1852 event that amounted to judicial cattle rustling. The cattle that the Benton County courts rustled belonged to a woman named Letitia Carson, and she was the widow of a recently naturalized Irishman named David Carson — or, rather, she would have been David's widow, if the two of them had been allowed to marry. But they weren't, because Letitia Carson was black, and a former slave — born in Kentucky in the late 1810s. The other factor that makes this episode of judicial rustling unusual is that Letitia took the thieves to court — and won. Twice. (Corvallis, Benton County; 1850s, 1860s) (For text and pictures, see http://offbeatoregon.com/1912b.letitia-carson-fought-racist-neighbor-in-court.html)

Lewis Blackwell Co-Owner of Luerzers Archive pops in. He chats to us about his career and shares some incredible insights into what it's like running the publication. He also relives stories on David Carson and Jony Ive.

David Carson founded Sammy's Mission with his wife, Mandi. David was in active addiction for many years. He was introduced to the Miracle Hill Overcomers Program in 2017. While David was in the treatment program, He met Jesus and developed a real love relationship with Him, and his life has been changed forever. David continually wants to give back what was freely given to him; hope. He wants to serve and help those that are in need like he once was. Sammy's Mission exists so that men struggling with hopelessness and addiction experience hope, hear the Good News of God's love, live in sobriety, and serve others. For more information about Sammy's Mission, Visit www.sammysmission.org --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/freedomhouseofgreenville/support

We love showing support and love for all of the initiatives here in this beautiful Recovery Town of Greenville, SC. Join Us as we talk about the resources we have available to us today and also to discuss the next LIVE Episode tomorrow night with David Carson. The #RecoveryFirst Podcast is a Podcast that helps highlight Local Initiatives in Greenville, South Carolina, and as well within National Stage in the Recovery Communities. Here you will hear a wide arrange of Topics surrounding Addiction, Recovery from Amazing Advocates helping to make a difference within the Recovery Space. If you or a loved one is struggling with substance use disorder, please contact us today by calling (864) 787-3798 or by visiting www.recoveryfirstpodcast.com --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/freedomhouseofgreenville/support

Today's bonus episode shares the wisdom and insight of the Buffalo card. I've pulled the Buffalo out of the Medicine Cards deck by Jamie Sams and David Carson several times this week, which suggested its message is to be shared widely. As always, this episode is provided for information purposes. Enjoy! --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/wisdomofthewilderness/message

BGBS BONUS 057: Jay Ferracane | Storytellers are Bullsh*tBaby Got Backstory host Marc Gutman partners up with good friend and past guest Jay Ferracane on a special bonus episode about the complexity of defining yourself as a storyteller based on the video, You Are Not a Storyteller by Stefan Sagmeister. Want to see it on video?Quotes[10:26] There is a fallacy that people think, “I have a conversation with you and I come back a week later, and you give me this thing that will be on a gas station, billboard, or on a wall.” And to me, it's iterative. It's a narrative. And that was the only thing I can start to think of why we've gotten into this thing called storytelling, because we're trying to let people know that it's not completely defined. And it's going to be a journey. [13:28] What is the function of design? A lot of times it's to communicate. It's not to be seen, it's not to be noticed, but it's to communicate. It has a very important job, but is that storytelling? Is wayfinding, storytelling? [14:58] I don't think even all stories have reasons, because sometimes they can be whimsical, right? Maybe that is the reason. [18:26] I think even we get conflated a bit when as branders and marketers we say, “Okay, well, it's the sum of all these parts, it's your visual, it's your tagline, it's your copy on your website. It's all this and then now that's your story.” But is it? [19:13] The cool thing about building a brand for me and developing the branding is that all those signals, all that stuff gets set up so that those stories can happen in there. But that's all the people interacting with it. So if anyone is a storyteller in a brand, it's usually the people that support the brand. It would almost be the customer, right? It's pretty meta, actually. [19:49] It's the external world. You can tell all the stories you want about yourself, but it doesn't really matter what you think. It's what everyone thinks about yourself. ResourcesFeatured Video:You are not a storyteller – Stefan Sagmeister Jay Ferracane:Instagram: @angrybovine Facebook: Jay Ferracane LinkedIn: Jay Ferracane BGBS Episode 41: Jay Ferracane | Angry Bovine | Design Is Not About the Designer Podcast TranscriptJay Ferracane 0:02 And that was the only thing I can start to think of is, “Is that why we've gotten into this thing called storytelling? Because we're trying to let people know that it's not completely defined and it's going to be a journey. And so let's call it a story and follow us on this journey or this story. I don't know that—I've been dwelling on that actually quite a bit in the last week or so because, well, you and I both know the reality of making anything is never airdrop it into your clients lap, at least it's not in my world. It's a lot of back and forth and and the story gets written together, if anything, but to me I've always wondered is, has storytelling become this thing because people are trying to explain like, you're gonna have to get involved in a narrative? I don't know. Maybe that's where it comes from. Marc Gutman 0:48 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman. Hey, I'm Marc Gutman, and today is a little bit of a bonus episode of Baby Got Backstory. My good friend, Jay Ferracane and I talk a lot about different branding topics, marketing topics all offline when we're just hanging out. And one of the things that we got written a lot about was storytelling, and kind of this craze about what's happening with storytelling, and everyone's calling themselves a storyteller. And then Jay turned me on to this amazing video about two minutes. And we're gonna link to the audio in this episode from a famous designer named Stefan Sagmeister. And after that little video, and Stefan sets the stage, Jay and I talk about what it means to be a storyteller. And I hope you liked this episode. It's a little bit of a bonus talking about a topic that's near and dear to my heart. I am here with Jay Ferracane celebrated designer, creative and all around awesome dude. And recently, Jay and I were doing some work together and Jay turned me on to this idea or this this video of Stefan Sagmeister that's titled You Are Not a Storyteller. Before we get into that, because I just I love this video, we're gonna watch it and then talk about it cuz I think it's really relevant, two minutes of extreme relevance, Jay, who is Stefan Sagmeister? Because I don't even know like I, I watched this video and I'm like, Who is this guy? Jay Ferracane 2:41 Well, Stefan Sagmeister is is a designer, I think Austrian born worked out in New York for years. But I think his real claim to fame was that he kind of made designers realize every once in a while that you should take some time for yourself. So he used to do these, these sabbaticals. And then for like a year, he would just do work that tried to make him happy and resulted in like a body of work about being happy. But his work was really widely regarded. I think he's won like a Grammy for some, you know, album design stuff. And I was always appreciative of his design even. And I've known about him for a really long time. You know, he I think he's in the the world of like, the pentagrams, and stuff like that of the world. But Stefan Sagmeister, and his partner, Jessica Walsh, who now runs her own outfit, she still continues, but I think Stefan does more of this kind of like, personal work kind of stuff. But pre that that was this video that I was sharing with you. Because, I mean, we've all heard it in conversations that, you know, everyone wants to be a storyteller. And, you know, what's that really mean? And should you say it, and I look at myself as such a, I don't know, like a tradesperson in design that. I've never considered myself a storyteller but it did me a stroke, it struck a chord with me and why people say that, and a lot of times, I think as a designer, my job is to unpack what people are really trying to say, or what's the reason behind that. And I have some thoughts on why people get into the storytelling, if they use storytelling as a way to describe their process or what they're attempting to do. So. Marc Gutman 4:11 Yeah, it's such an interesting topic to me. I mean, remember, several years ago, you'd say you're a storyteller, and people thought that was all cool. And they'd be like, tell me about that. And, and, and it meant different things. And it still does to different people. But now it's like, literally, I think every single website I hit says, We are storytellers, everybody's Instagram says I'm a storyteller, and everyone wants to be a storyteller. And I think there's a lot of confusion around storytelling. And it's just an interesting topic to me. I don't know if I've landed I firmly believe that as—the way we communicate as humans is through stories, does that make everyone a storyteller? Especially when it comes to business, right? Like, is everyone a storyteller? And so what I want to do is I want to go ahead and share this video. It's two minutes, and we'll go ahead and watch it together. And then we can talk about it. Jay Ferracane 5:02 Sure. Stefan Sagmeister 5:09 Hi, my name is Stefan sagmeister, a Austrian graphic designer who lives in New York City. I'm actually quite critical of the storytelling thing. I think that the older storytellers are not storytelling. Recently, I read an interview with somebody who designs rollercoasters, and he referred to himself as a storyteller. No fuckhead you are not a storyteller. You're a rollercoaster designer. And that's fantastic and more power to you, but why would you want to be a storyteller if you design rollercoasters? Or if you have storytelling that the story that you tell is bullshit. It's like this little Itsy Bitsy little thing. Yes, you go through the space and guess you see other spaceships and yes, that's the story? That's a fucking bullshit story. That's boring. People who actually tell stories, meaning people who write novels and make feature films don't see themselves as storytellers it's all the people who are not storytellers, who kind of for strange reasons, because it's in the air, suddenly, now want to be storytellers. There is this fallacy out there. I don't think that I fell in fell for it. But somehow, maybe unconsciously I did, you know that you sort of feel “I've seen a lot of films, so I must be able to do one.” And of course, this is the most stupid thought ever, you know, it's like, “Oh, I've watched the Philharmonic. That's why I am a virtuoso violin player.” You know, I'm not, even though I've watched a lot of philharmonic concerts, I think by now in our space, meaning in the space of design, it sort of took on the mantle of bullshit. You know, now everybody's a storyteller. Marc Gutman 7:04 Just letting it play out there a little bit, so we can give proper credit to those that published it. But Wow, carries on the mantle of bullshit. Jay Ferracane 7:16 So much to unpack right? Marc Gutman 7:18 So much to unpack. So the mantle of bullshit. I mean, I was giggling and laughing during that, and I certainly saw that you were I mean, like, What are your first thoughts is like, is— Jay Ferracane 7:27 Well, I remember the first time I saw it, number one, you know, I can't pull off the sport coat. And, and, and and impression like he was and I was so genuinely entertained by the fact that he was being so honest, and calling out people on their stuff. And I guess where I came back to, when I when I first sat with it, I thought I probably the first time I saw it just really just thought it was funny. And like, man, did he wake up and have some shitty coffee or something that morning? And, and then, you know, the more I thought about it, and I saw, I think I saw that thing years ago. And and but I've thought about a lot since then. And I've tried to figure out, you know, why? Why has the industry taken on this mantle of, of bullshit? Number one, there's so many, I think there's so many options for clients out there today, that everyone's got to wrap themselves up in something, right, we all kind of do that take on a persona or two. But I think that this storytellers thing was a phenomenon that came out of not unlike, like, I purposely went against the grain when people were there. For some reason, there was this weird fear of like calling yourself a designer, I'm a graphic designer, that's what I was formally trained to do. And I think that makes me a pretty capable communicator. But it does give me a position of where I enter communication from. And I think storytelling maybe puts this this number one, it puts a bigger umbrella on it and allows people to be more capable, or at least position themselves that they are more capable, because they don't have to really describe what their entry point is and where they're coming from. But to the point of, you know, when he was saying, this, this fact about like, I can, you know, if I watch an opera, am I a virtuoso? there is so much information out there in education today that you can watch a video and go out and tell people, you know, something. So I think that what he was probably sensing was some frustration and i would i wonder, actually, how, how close this was to him thinking about, you know, leaving professional practice, because he maybe he was just like fed up at that point. Because that dude, and his outfit did really just great, creative, very original, graphic design. And, you know, maybe he was just, like, frustrated at a point like, I'm not going to be, you know, shielded about this anymore. The more I thought about it, though, and it was funny because you and I have talked a little bit about this and the phenomena of and there are some outfits that work this way, but the phenomenon that work, like a project is something that might have been called the story to be told. You know, in the Stefan Sagmeister, I hate you world. I think there's this notion to that a lot of people think that the project is this, it's dropped on the table, and this is one thing I've been thinking a lot about knowing you and I were going to get together and talk about this, but does this when you start to say, Hey I'm a storyteller, Is that a way to prepare people for the reality of a design process? And I call it a design process, going through a logo, there is a fallacy that people think I have a conversation with you and I come back a week later, and you give me this thing that will be on a gas station, billboard or on a wall. And to me, it's iterative. It's a narrative. And that was the only thing I can start to think of. Is that why we've gotten into this thing called storytelling, because we're trying to let people know that it's not completely defined. And it's going to be a journey. And so let's call it a story and follow us on this journey or this story. I don't know that I've been dwelling on that actually quite a bit in the last week or so. Because, well, you and I both know, the reality of making anything is never airdrop it into your clients lap. At least it's not in my world. It's a lot of back and forth. And, and the story gets written together, if anything, but to me, I've always wondered is has storytelling become this thing? Because people are trying to explain, like, you're gonna have to get involved in a narrative. I don't know. Maybe that's where it comes from. But, yeah. Marc Gutman 11:20 Yeah, it's, it's so I mean, so much to unpack on top of your unpacking. Right? Like, there's, you know, what resonates for me out of that so much as when he talks about his Hey I go to the Philharmonic, and does that mean I can be, you know, a great violin player? Because very, you know, early in my career, I was a story editor in the movie business and a core part of that is just taking in scripts. And I could never understand why everybody thought they had a story worth telling. Everyone thought that their life story was worthy of a movie. I think it's primarily because of what Stefan Sagmeister says is that now went to the movies, they get it, they're like, Hey, I can make this into a movie. And I was like, very clearly, no. No one, like, not a single one that came in was worth reading. They weren't interesting to me. And much like a classic pianist or something like that I was trained in classic cinematic storytelling, which means that there's a three act structure beginning middle and an end, a likeable, or at least, intriguing hero that has obstacles in their way and has to move from something they want towards something they need, all these things. It has a very strict definition. And I remember when I got into branding and marketing, and I had the same reaction as Sagmeister, I was like, This is crazy. Everyone's calling themselves a storyteller. These are not stories, and I was really myopic on my definition of story. Now I've since come off that and I learned, I've learned that storytelling has this different sort of definition. And I think, when I heard you speaking, that's really what I started kind of going through, like, what are these definitions of story versus storytelling versus narrative? I mean, is the roller coaster designer really trying to tell a story? Are they trying to communicate, communicate anything other than thrill and excitement? And, you know, things like that? So? Yeah, I mean, and you and I have had this conversation offline, so much about just what is the purpose? What is the job? What is the function of design, and a lot of times it's to communicate, and it's not to be seen, it's not to be noticed, but it's to communicate as a very important job. It is that storytelling? like is Wayfinding storytelling? Jay Ferracane 13:44 Right. Marc Gutman 13:45 You know, like, all the great Helvetica stuff we love from, you know, the New York subway and I mean, and then recent MTA rebrand, I mean, that stuff is like that telling a story? Is that storytelling? Jay Ferracane 13:58 And and that's, that's totally where I think it gets it screwed up. And not to belabor the point about titles, but like, you know, storytellers, if that's going to be the thing that somebody wants to put a label on him, I do think it comes back to this thing that, you know, design is about—it's, it's a what, yeah, I've told you this quote that if you can design a city, you can design a spoon, or if you can design a spoon, you can design a city, meaning like, hey, once you understand that, that your job is is to do this thing. It doesn't matter what medium it gets put into it. And still to this day, it kind of trips me up to hear a designer say I'm a UI designer. So okay, so if your friend said, Hey, I need a T shirt, you wouldn't make a T shirt? You know? Like, I'm not a T shirt designer, but I designed lots of T shirts. And I'm a graphic designer I've done to design a ton of UI and I poked my own eye out through my glasses if I had to only design UI and to me, I guess it comes back to this notion that design's job is to just put reason into things. And I don't think even all stories have really because sometimes they can be whimsical, right? Maybe that is the reason. But I remember seeing this talk if we're going to kind of Sagmeister was an early design hero of mine and so was David Carson. And I saw David Carson do a talk once about it was, oh, he showed this layout he did for a conference he got asked to attend, it was called the bravery of design or something like that. And it was the image was his father, who was a test pilot getting into an aircraft. And he goes, and he basically put that up, because he goes, what we do isn't dangerous. He goes, unless I'm designing like, pharmaceutical packaging, or something where if somebody reads it wrong, there's a problem, right? And he was saying that that's fucking dangerous. And he pointed at his, you know, his dad in the 60s, or whenever it was getting into a, into an aircraft. And, and I do, I just think that there's something that I think people feel like they need to inflate around what it is they're really doing. And that's why I really do look at what I do, it's much more like a trade than it is art, for sure. And even the way I approach it, it's like, I'm going to show you some things, but you're going to react to them, and then I'm going to catalyze those back into it so it becomes the things you need it to be. It's not about me. And so a lot of times storytelling is is like, your take on something to it has a very emotional bent. And, you know, that's a major difference between art and design is that you know, art is really about you trying to express some personal feeling or emotion where design should really really—it's it can have expression in it, but it's really about communicating ideas or information. And so storytelling does, it gets cloudy, but maybe it is a safety mechanism for people to just shield up like, Hey, I don't–I was a marketing manager a long time ago, but all of a sudden, here I am, you know, trying to help you rebuild your brand. And if I tell you that where I came from, that's it. That's a hard entry point, right? Marc Gutman 16:55 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of wild story, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline. or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. That sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And you and I have collaborated recently on a bunch of identities. I mean, those are really stories. You know, when I think about them, they're like, you know, there's we want certain emotions, we want you to think of certain categories. We want you to see this and say, Okay, this is a tool brand, for example. We're not really telling stories within that work, and I wouldn't, and I think that's okay, like, we don't have to like that's not the intention or the purpose. And I think even we get conflated a bit when as branders and marketers we say, Okay, well, it's the sum of all these parts, it's your visual, it's your tagline. It's, you know, your, you know, your copy on your website, it's, it's all these and then now your that's your story, you know, but like, is it? Jay Ferracane 18:45 I think it's and it's funny, too, because one thing that I try and get really clear with my clients that when I first start working with them is is that there's a difference between branding and brand. So brand and branding are two totally separate things. Brand is the promise you want to you know, bring to the world. Branding is the signals that get them there. And you know, in this in this case of like, you know, when we work on identity and stuff like that, I think we're we're way more in the signal building camp. Because the I that the cool thing about building a brand for me and developing the branding that will do that is that all those signals, all that stuff gets set up so that the stories can happen in there. But that's all the people interacting with it. So if anyone this is interesting that we've talked this out a little bit, but if anyone is a storyteller and a brand, it's usually the people that support the brand, it would almost be the customer, right? It's pretty meta, actually. Marc Gutman 19:40 So there's the old adage, a brand isn't what you say it is. It's what they say it is. And I think that so Jay Ferracane 19:45 Then who's the storyteller in that? Marc Gutman 19:47 Yeah, the customer, right? It's the external world. I mean, you know, you can, it's kind of like, you know, you can tell all the stories you want about yourself, but it doesn't really matter. Jay Ferracane 19:57 Right. Marc Gutman 19:58 That's what everyone thinks, you know, about yourself. Jay Ferracane 20:01 Yeah, no. And that's it's totally Yeah. Because I, yeah, you know, for along the line of storytellers is a word that I never got, and it's my brushes with the advertising world is, is a lot of times, people who make stuff just generally get thrown into this category as creatives. And I think that's kind of a weird label too, because I think that an art director is a, it's a role and a skill set that is different than a designer sometimes or graphic designer, right. And it could be different than a set designer, and it could be different than, and so but in certain worlds, all of that gets stuffed in too. And so I think whenever these labels come out, it's just a way, it's just a way for people to soften, or create a softer landing place for you to understand where you come from. And well, you know, my, my, my love of music and the background and the things that I grew up around was like early punk rock, especially DC kind of stuff. And in those days, you didn't go to the, you didn't even go to tower, you would have friends that gave you like cassettes that were made off of cassettes that were made off of two other cassettes. And I remember every once while people would like hold the microphone to like the TV and record stuff into it, I still, to this day, don't know where this soundbite came, but it's this very posture-y kind of voice it was in between one of the songs that was on this mixtape given to me. And the guy says, I have news for the world. And he says new wave is dead. And it says new wave is just a way of saying that you like any names, all these like sub genres of music that was extremely not popular at that point. And then he ended it with like, these categorizations of all these music types, that people wedged them under a new wave. And he said, it's because you don't want to get kicked out with a party because people won't give you drugs anymore. And so like, but it was kind of funny, because if I if I think about that, that's probably this defense mechanism that all humans are do a lot. They they put some falsehood around themselves, or at least a softening device. So that either you can't really assign what it is and or you may be reassign it, and it's it's a funny, it's a funny thing. And and I think that's that's, you know, not me ever asking, you know, Stefan about this, but like, I would bet his intent is is call it what it would call it what it is, and just be authentic about it. Because to me, that's the best form of graphic design and is when you can, like, make the brand with the things that it really is. And that's not necessarily storytelling. To me. That's this very, we were just talking about this before this call started ingredients and parts. Marc Gutman 22:40 Yeah, totally. And like, it's just, it seems like this catch all, you know, being a storyteller, this thing that is just like, you don't know how to describe yourself, you don't know what it is you think, you know, and I just recently posted on Instagram a carousel that was called stop copying your competitors. And and it's because we all don't know, you know what to say about ourselves. And we don't know how to differentiate, we don't know what category we want to be special. Right? And, and I'm no different. I want to be special, but we're not, you know, we need to understand— Jay Ferracane 23:13 You're special! Marc Gutman 23:14 Oh, Go on Go on. But you have this idea that like everyone's a storyteller is just crazy to me. And, and I do think I think the roller coaster example that he uses is of the extreme, but I think it comes into all sorts of things like you know, even you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of functions in marketing today where you know, people are claiming to be storytellers like in paid media. You're not a storyteller. You're an advertiser, you know? Jay Ferracane 23:40 Yeah, and that's fine, though. That is great Marc Gutman 23:42 And you should—Yeah, and you know and sometimes you use storytelling as a mechanism or a tool to to get your advertising across, but that doesn't make you a storyteller per se and I just think it's interesting that we all and it's in it's become this thing that like, like people just want to be that like it's like we use that as our brand and it's almost become that I think you might even be in the person that sent me the bland book which was a mock site of like what branding and and and all these agencies have become and storyteller would be front and center right there you know, right on the—we are visionary storytellers looking to change the world you know one brand at a time. Jay Ferracane 24:24 Well and i think that's that's why, let's just call it that well “the creatives” to use a big loose term the creative industry every you know, so often has to kind of go find its new catch all phrase to that everyone can kind of like over the next five years reassigns themselves to and then we feel that we shed that again and you become something else. But it is it just an interesting phenomenon that people get into these traps where they're like I'm worried about telling you what I am and in the in the roller coaster guys sense. It I found myself drifting off thinking about that. That, you know, like maybe what he does is so complex that if he told somebody what he really did, you know, maybe it's more of a mathematician than anything because you got to figure out a lot of gravity shit, I bet. And they're right. You know, it's like gravity and like, what if there's a fat guy in a little guy in the in the car together? What's that gonna do to the story? Like, Marc Gutman 25:19 How hard is it to say I'm a kick ass roller coasters? Like, like, like, like, everyone understands that. Jay Ferracane 25:25 But it are people comfortable doing that, too? Like, I think that's that's what it comes down to. So I don't know, it has to be something about the the palatability of the world you're trying to market to. Oh, man, this is resonating. People want to hear story. So I'm going to be set tell people I'm that, right. So yeah, it's, I don't know, I guess it was a delight, especially when I saw that because I think I personally would just really rather designers be designers and communicators. That's that's probably the better term. I would rather people say I'm a communicator than a storyteller because that is kind of what we do. I think it's, it can be super boring shit sometimes and not that there's not boring stories, but at least it has less of a mantle around it too less of a mantle of bullshit. And he has that. That [inaudible] and like, [inaudible]. Like there was a [inaudible] in there for a second. Marc Gutman 26:21 Angry. Yeah, you know? Jay Ferracane 26:23 Yeah. Marc Gutman 26:23 I love it. Well, Jay, this was awesome. I just enjoyed talking about this topic with you. It's it fascinates me. And like I said, Thank you for turning me on to that video. Like kind of blew my mind and was just really cool to chat about it. Jay Ferracane 26:37 No, I am, I'm the king of derailing your day with Oh, yeah, on that topic here. Watch these six videos, you know me. So you're welcome. And I'm glad to continue to distract you on a daily basis. Marc Gutman 26:48 Thank you. I'm looking forward to my next distraction. And that is Jay Ferracane. And that was us talking about storytelling, all based on the Stefan Sagmeister video. I love that he kind of goes on that rant about someone who designs roller coasters as a storyteller, but I think you'll agree it's become really, really confusing. I hope you like this little bonus episode. And if you want more of this type of content, drop us a line at wildstorm.com and let us know that you like these type of episodes just as much as of our traditional interview. Well, that's the show for today. Let me know if you have any questions. I'm Marc Gutman, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS. See you'll never miss an episode. I like big stories and I cannot lie, you other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 041: Jay Ferracane | Angry Bovine | Design Is Not About the Designer Jay Ferracane is a former skateboard punk, current gentleman rancher, and most importantly, a gifted graphic designer. Jay launched the design consultancy, Angry Bovine, with an honor for placing brand authenticity at the forefront of design and decision making. As you may be able to tell so far, Jay is a multi-talented man. He taught design for over 8 years at the University of Colorado's grad program formerly known as BDW and founded the creative speaking series, “Caffeinated Mornings”, which ran for almost 7 years.  Here you'll hear Jay's beginnings with design, from watching his mother paint in fascination for hours to piecing together DIY coordinated BMX outfits with the neighborhood kids. Jay emphasizes how diving into a variety of industries and always being aware of the processes around him have influenced his style and creativity. He opens our eyes to the beauty of designing based on what is unique to you rather than what the norm “allows”, inspiring us to ask ourselves, how can we all be more fearlessly authentic? In this episode, you'll learn... Growing up as a military kid living in Hawaii and Japan, Jay learned that the world was much bigger than he thought Jay discovered the name for Angry Bovine while watching the Mad Cow disease in a breakroom of a small ad shop Design is rarely about the person who designed it, whereas art is mostly about the person who made that art As a teenager, Jay would cut out every table of contents of Transworld Skateboard Magazine and wallpaper his room with them. This experience was one of his earliest design influences During art school, Jay kept adding typography to his paintings, which led him to stray from traditional art towards design Jay was fortunate enough to start his career designing annual reports for Yahoo and Motorola by applying to a job that no one else would Design is simply making communication in a creative form A company that makes manufacturing software is no less sexy than Nike because of their value and the connection they have with a group of people Jay currently lives on a ranch with his family for his wife's nonprofit to save horses (and they even have cows now. Full circle, right?) Although design is meant to be objective, at some point creatively your work can become subjective because of the attachment to your ideas When designing for a brand, it is important to ask what is unique to you rather than following the mold of what is “compulsory” in the industry Jay thinks that the coolest thing about being a designer is seeing the lasting impact in what you do Resources  Angry Bovine Website Jay Ferracane LinkedIn Jay Ferracane Facebook Jay Ferracane Instagram Quotes [43:31] I design every day, that's my problem solving methodology. [1:03:27] I am proud of the fact that I get to work in lots and lots of industries, because again, back to that point of objectivity, and every brand is its own thing, even if it's in the same industry it's really important to kind of start to look at and go, “How are we going to solve this problem? What's unique to you guys? And let's just take it from that standpoint.” Right? Versus “Here's what everybody is doing in this industry, can you make us just like them?” [1:06:32] Brands should be about how you run your company. Logos are the signals that bring people to the company. Podcast Transcript Jay Ferracane 0:02 We were always taught that art creates visual problems and design solves visual problems. And I think that's a bit of an inaccuracy or simple oversimplification. But art is usually about how you feel about something. Whereas design really does force you to be super objective, take into account your research and information and display that back to somebody in an engaging and useful kind of way. And I think that's the biggest difference is design, in most cases, and you can never say never, the design in most cases is rarely about the person who designed it. Art. Most of the time is about the person who made that art. Marc Gutman 0:48 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Backstory. We are talking to Jay Ferracane from angry bovine. Jay is a designer and creative and as you'll hear in today's episode, he has some very strong ideas about design, its purpose and place in business, and perhaps some advice to up-and-coming designers. And if you want to know how I feel about Jay's work well, when it was time to do the visual identity for the Wildstory rebrand. I called up Jay and begged him to do our identity. That's all you really need to know. And since then, we've worked together on several projects, and I consider him a good friend. his bio tells us that he's a graphic designer and creative director with over 25 years of experience. In his work and his approach been recognized with many awards and accolades and most recently, his mobile design studio was featured in designboom, outside magazine and the book, the new nomads, in addition to teaching design for over eight years at sea use grad program that is Colorado University, formerly known as BDW. He also founded the creative speaking series, caffeinated mornings, which ran for almost seven years. If you ask him what he does for a living, he says, I draw pictures and share. But deep within those pictures, letter forms, compositions and stories, his reasoning based and critical thinking in business needs, turning ideas into defendable, objective designs and belief systems that people can rely on. Sounds pretty cool. Our conversation waters from Jays upbringing as a military kid, his youth as a skateboard punk, current day gentlemen, rancher and the difference between art and design and the current trends in design today. I had an awesome time, and I think you will, too. And this is his story. I am so excited for today's podcast because I am here with the one and only Jay Ferracane both my friend and colleague, we I someone I like tremendously yet we also do work together, which isn't always a good combination. But in our case, it is. Jay, welcome to the show. Jay Ferracane 3:35 Well, thank you for having me, Marc. And you once told me, you love me more than pancakes. And I don't know what that means. But I believe it is the highest praise I've ever gotten from anybody. So thank you for loving me more than pancakes. Marc Gutman 3:50 In my world that is very, very high praise. So you are welcome. And thanks for coming on the show. I'm so excited to talk about all things design and just creative space in general. But before we get into that, why don't you just give us a quick sense of who you are. Go ahead and just introduce yourself, what you're up to these days and what your business is. Jay Ferracane 4:13 Yep, I'm Jay Ferracane. I formally trained graphic designer. My my background is a little bit of an interesting one, I think and is I started out in the rough and tumble world of annual report design coming right out of design school I worked in I was really fortunate to work in an area of California in Palo Alto back in the 90s. When that creative scene there was just fantastic and open and actually reminds me a lot of what we see here in the Front Range today. cut my teeth in print, then went to work for probably if not the first one of the first five maybe digital agencies only in the Bay Area studio called baby grand and we were building websites for companies and my background in AI Reports I started taking that those experiences and putting them on those little CDs that started coming with annual reports. I don't know if you've ever had the displeasure of checking one of those out. And then fast forward, I became a creative director at a few software companies in the Bay Area, which gave me a really interesting lens on what the client is really looking for from design, and how we can help them do their jobs better. That was a big turning point for me and my thinking around design. And then I returned to the agency world for a little bit. We went into a big recession, I made a move, I started my firm, which is Angry Bovine, which I refer to as a design guide, I guess, Co-Op, where I partner with lots of great people like you yourself, what developers, filmmakers, all that kind of stuff, to help my clients tell their stories and build the best communication we can for them. And I've been doing that for the past 12 years now. Marc Gutman 5:57 So where did the name Angry Bovine come from? Jay Ferracane 6:02 Um, I don't want you to be disappointed, but it's not going to be nearly as cool as you think angry bovine started out, I was working at a small ad shop in the Bay Area. And this was one of the first.com boom arrows. And this agency I was working at, worked on a really diverse client base. And it was also the first place I worked at where we didn't have secretaries. We had office administrators, and we were working on a used car account, and that used car count. We weren't allowed to call it a use car. So we had to have the previously owned automobiles. And I don't know, I was angsty and whatever a younger designer at that time, and I had been building portfolios around my name. And that wasn't really a cool thing yet. And so again, my me being a designer, my striving for objectivity all the time is I felt like whenever I build a portfolio around my name, the work that was in it became more about me. So in one of my angsty periods at complaining about what I was working on, probably at the agency, I was in the break room, and mad cow was breaking out of the UK. And I, I said to somebody, can you imagine here with all the political sensitivity around words and things like that, that in the very near future, we might not be able to say Mad Cow at a cocktail party without offending somebody? And I said, Yeah, you would probably have to say something like, have you heard about that Angry Bovine disease, it's terrible. And then a light bulb went off in my head, because it was just enough of a non sequitur, paired with a recent, at that time, a recent special I had seen on prison prisons, where they were putting inmates in pink rooms, to calm them down. And I just thought the contrast between magenta as a corporate color pink, and, and this name, Angry Bovine would be the perfect non sequitur to provide basically a plate to put all of my work on. Because it didn't really mean anything. Now, it is funny, because once I tell that story, you're like, Oh, you just made the name up. And that's what most naming is. But in the punk rock skateboard kid in me does have a twinge of pride when I go into a physical meeting. And somebody says, A Jay from angry brain is here. It's just a funny thing for people to recite. And remember, so it as non sequitur, as it would, as it was, it has kind of paid off in at least memory for a lot of people. So that's how the name came about. And I know you were wishing you asked that question. No, Marc Gutman 8:33 No, I'm thrilled that I asked that question. And, you know, it doesn't surprise me at all, that you're walking around as a younger designer with a bunch of angst about mad cow disease and how it was being portrayed. So you know, that that makes me wonder. I mean, did you grow up wanting to be a designer was that always you know, on your radar, like what was like eight-year-old j, like, Jay Ferracane 8:54 Oh, eight-year-old Jay was kind of a, I wouldn't I don't want to say nightmare. But I definitely want to say like, I was a super, this is gonna shock you add completely, like diagnosed? Yeah, I was one of the kids. I had to take Ritalin for a long time. But my mom did art. And math was really hard for me the concentration on that, but my mom did art and her uncle or her brother, my uncle, built models and the combination I think of those two things, people with a DD have these periods of hyper focus as much as we are completely distracted. So if there was something that wasn't genuinely interested in an eight-year-old Jay sitting in an English class, would hear somebody break a pencil and I would get up and run over to give them a new pencil, not caring that there was maybe a test going on or something like that. But I could also come home and watch my mom paint for three hours and be totally interested in that or work on a model. And, you know, comparing it to reference pages of my thought my dad was a marine aviator and so In my life growing up I my reference materials, if you will, things that were around my house and stuff were a lot of books on war, a lot of book books on aircraft. And it fascinated me the insignias and paint schemes. So I think somewhere in there, the DNA for me to become a designer was being set up really early, I never had the hand to be a really fine artist. So I think painting early on for me, it was also messy, and not fast enough. And there was something as I progressed, even I went to art school to be a painter, because that's kind of I was always the guy in my, my cliques and crews growing up, that was the guy that was doing air quotes, art, because it was just how I was expressing myself that way. But I didn't know there was trades. Were kind of stuff. I Well, you know, skateboarding for one, you know, your board would become a canvas, the first thing I do, you know, especially once it got scraped up is, you'd re-spray paint it, or you start writing on your grip tape, and you put band names on there. And then all of a sudden, you cross into the music, you start listening to particularly the music I was into, you know, starting out around the time, I was like, you know, 13 or so I had Well, growing up in a military family is a little bit of an interesting thing, because you are somewhat transient, so you don't have lots of stuff. But the stuff you have you sit with it in such great detail that you really absorb all of it. And so we moved to this one location. And it was it's a kind of a fascinating thing to think about military neighborhoods, because you you may reconnect with somebody that you live near three years ago, but then all of a sudden, new influences would come. So I was living in Hawaii at the time. And kids from Washington DC started showing up. And this is like 80s. Like, punk rock is big time in. In Washington, DC bands like minor threat and youth brigade. And these kinds of bands are making music and we don't have access to it. So we're looking at our friends who are bringing these new vinyls and things like that. So you'd go home and make a T shirt or something like that. So I think my creativity started in all of that kind of exposure, if you will, my mom kind of made it accessible because she was doing art in our house all the time. So I'm like, Oh, that's just what you do. Her brother, like I said, who frequently visited us was always kind of, he would like help me draw, you know, cooler airplanes. And then he would talk we would talk about model building. And then like I said, that kind of stretched its way into my skateboarding life. You know, I had these tools, I had paints, I had mark-making tools, if you will, and I just started to ride on my shoes, and you'd ride on your jeans. And like I said, you'd make your own t-shirts. And it was a very DIY kind of life for me, because like, I even remember, we got into BMX for a little bit, and we'd look at magazines, and you know, you'd have these guys in these, like cool, you know, coordinated outfits and stuff. And me and the neighbor, kid, I remember us trying to sew our own. Like, you remember the movie rad. Like we tried to make our own BMX outfits, and sewing and iron on and that kind of stuff. And we were just making our world and you know, the coolest thing was is we weren't asking anybody's permission, can we go buy this thing we just kind of like, didn't know any better. So we go do it. Marc Gutman 13:13 And so we're kind of artists was your mother, Jay Ferracane 13:15 My mom painted a lot in oil. And I remember her trying her to him this to do portraiture and stuff like that. She was always trying to paint pictures of me and my sister. Gosh, I know she has this there's an unfinished painting somewhere in my attic that is of me and my sister that are literally that they're probably I don't wanna say the canvas, it was Canvas boards. And that, you know, they're probably half an inch thick, because he just kept trying to like, fix stuff and navia in just telling you that I think that probably is another trait that I've learned and it's been one of my successes in InDesign is is that adequately talented probably is how I would describe myself but I'll generally Outlast most people through the most enduring times and events. And I'll just keep trying. And my mom was a lot like that, too. Marc Gutman 14:00 So and So where do you say that you're actually from you mentioned you moved around a lot. I mean, is there a place where you actually feel like you were from? Are you a bit of a nomad? Jay Ferracane 14:10 I think I'm a bit of a nomad. But I would say a lot of my respect, and well a lot of my respect and ethics around how people should behave and stuff was kind of really formed in in Hawaii growing up in Hawaii because I was a minority there. And and it's in its in its tribal in the sense of you go to surf at a spot, you've got to show respect to locals and get in skateboarding was the same way you go to a local skate spot. And you can't just be this loud mouth jerk that shows up and pushes everybody out of the way. You've got to, you know, you've got to be somewhat complimentary and respectful. And I think that that's one thing that you know, I really took with me and after living in Hawaii, I moved I moved at 16 years old, I moved from Hawaii to Japan. All places. And that was a really interesting experience because in some way, you're in a foreign land, right? Like, literally you can go off base on bases like, it's like living, you know, where you live today, you've got your supermarket, you've got a convenience store, you can go get sodas, there's usually like, you know, hamburgers and whatever. But going off base, literally, we jumped the fence, and you'd have your skateboard and some money in your pocket to ride the bus wherever. And it was kind of the coolest license as a kid. So I would say I was probably my most formative years were spent in Hawaii. But I think moving to Asia made me really realize that like, oh, the world's a lot bigger than just where we live. And then I came back to California at a fairly young age to start going to school and stuff like that. And really just started to learn how to like, take care of myself, too. So I think all three of those areas in combination have made me who, who I am today, a lot of people like look at me, meet me and they're like, dude, you're California through and through. But I really think a lot of my background comes from what I learned about in Hawaii and Marc Gutman 16:06 So you're like a Hawaii Asia Cali kind of? Jay Ferracane 16:10 Yeah, definitely Pacific. Maybe that's how I describe myself. Marc Gutman 16:15 At that time when you're when you're growing up, but you know, you're you mentioned that you're, you know, expressing yourself through skate culture, and rad with the greatest bike race Park feature of all time, the series that you a ride through them off the diving board spoon, but we'll leave that for another podcast, the AI? Are you getting in any formal art training? Are you taking art classes in school? Like, what do you have any role models to say, Hey, I can make a career out of this? Jay Ferracane 16:46 Oh, yeah, well, role models, probably less so. But man, there was a lot of signals pointing at my path. And I recently had this discussion with the guy who runs an agency out in New York. And we were kind of both talking about being a DD and growing up and the things we were interested in. And the add on that probably the thing that I've learned that add the way the Add mind is, is that we have, we are able to process stuff a lot faster than most people. The problem is, is it gets kind of archived, it comes in and gets archived in like what they call midterm storage. So it's kind of hard to access. So that's why a lot of people add aren't graded like things like math, they can do it just takes a little bit more work. But back to your question, the things that were I was absorbing so much digesting every single skateboarding magazine, I could get my hands on every single surfing magazine. I was in terms of influences. When I went to I think my parents maybe even realized that like, hey, at least he can draw, what are what are trades that he could do. And so when I lived in Hawaii, there was a fantastic drafting program in our school, which I think points to some of the technical work that I do today. And I remember the the guy who was tough that ran the drafting program, and literally the idea was, you could leave school there and maybe go to a junior college for a year or two and just be a draftsperson. Right? Like, that was a big industry. While he was going through a building boom, they needed people to draw plans. So this guy just basically it was like almost like a trade school. And so I think my first experience with like, art as a trade was probably be my path to becoming a draftsman. Now I quickly realized I didn't necessarily have the attention to detail that was required for that job. And so then I probably moved on to art. But before I ever knew about design, at this time living in Hawaii, I would get Transworld skateboarding. And every Transworld skateboarding magazine, I got the first thing I did was like, cut out the table of contents. And I actually had to talk about this at a Colorado ad day or something like that, they said was in the early influences in your design career. And I, I kind of thought back to this moment of like, whatever it was that grabbed my attention on these table of contents. And I found out later, there's no internet this time, right? I can't Google, who designs table of contents for trade. Transworld. Again, back to my ATD brain, I probably could have looked in there and read, oh, creative director, David Carson, because it's probably in the masthead or you know, the publishing information in the front cover. But anyway, I cut these all these out. And I realized that they were the super expressive forms of information design when you really think about it. And it was funny because I had the opportunity to meet David Carson, and I told him about this experience being, you know, time I was like 13 to 16 years old. I cut out literally almost every table of contents out of tree at Transworld and was progressively wallpapering my room with them. And I told him that at a book signing once and literally, he pulled a beer out from under the table and we shot the shit for about five minutes until his handler had to like drag me off. But we started talking about surfing and all sorts of stuff because he served. But I think my earliest influences was drafting and then those experiences with Transworld skateboarding magazine. Now the problem is, is like, and I think this is the coolest thing that designers today is if they get excited or inspired by someone, they have this ability to find out who that is, and they in through social media, there's a good chance they can talk to those people. You know, if I ever found out who David Carson was, at that time, you know, the act of getting in touch with him would have been vastly different. So I was inspired by his work for sure. I just didn't know what category it came from, or where it was headed. And then, you know, here I am, 25 years later. And I'm, like, still talking about it, because it literally made a huge impact on me. And, you know, Marc Gutman 20:45 I was gonna ask you a little bit more about where you went next, and kind of your first job, but you keep using this term design design designers like what is design? Like? Like, like, how do you define that? And what is a designer? Jay Ferracane 20:58 Hmm? Well, maybe this will help me do a definition for you. When I went to art school, I had this kind of, I'm gonna call it a three step, making air gestures here that you can't see. But I had this three steps experience in school, I went to art school. And then at some point in art school, I've always been a guy that just likes to go to work. And at some point in art school, I said, When do I get to go to work? Meaning like, when do I stop coming to classes? When do I stop dicking around, when do I start to do some real stuff. And then, after enough conversations, they realize like most art students just go back to school, like, you get to maybe get a grant and you become a graduate student, or you apply for a doctorate, and you do some sort of thesis in art. And that wasn't for me, like I really didn't like school. And the irony is I teach today, and I think that's probably some sort of cosmic punishment for the way that I acted in school. And that's, that is another podcast. Um, but then I went, somebody said, Hey, I kept putting messages in my painting, like, I paint words and stuff in there. And my art teachers kind of get on my case, because they were like, Hey, you need to let your viewers you know, paint the light, fill out the story. And I'm like, but I, this is the message I want to I want to tell. And so then they're like, have you ever taken any typography courses? And I'm like, I don't I only think I can even spell that. But what is that? And so then I went and did a typography course. And then somebody had told me, hey, by the way, if you kind of like, don't want to do fine art, have you ever thought about illustration, we had a really good illustration program at the at San Jose State. So I'm in illustration, I'm doing a little bit of typographic a little bit of illustration. And then it dawns on me, I'm like, okay, here I am. In this situation, again, I want to go to work every day. I'm like, who tells an illustrator to make work? And they're like, Oh, that's usually a creative director, art director, designer guy. And I'm like, Okay, cool. Where's that department. And so then I went to design in the design department, and the design department is sales, a state at that time was really impacted, it was one of the, you know, they would take like a student of, I'm gonna say, at least a couple hundred students, maybe 150 200 students, and then from that, one class would be admitted every year. And that was somewhere between 30 and 45 students, and it was all done through a portfolio review, compulsory portfolio review, basically, everybody was putting up the same amount of work, it was really kind of like a hard deal to get into. And then once you got in there, it was this very international, Swiss kind of design style, international style of design being taught. So now coming to the definition of design, is really it was about making communication, that could that it was really about making communication. That was that's what it really what it simply came down to, and there was an art aspect to it. But there was also some creativity in the side of making it not being cliched creating engagement, working to the grid. You know, we were only using like, you know, three fonts at that time. really early computer days, by the way, when I'm doing all this stuff. So Gosh, in in the way that I would define design is, you know, for me, it's it's a objective visual communication. Marc Gutman 24:12 And how is that different than art? Like how does that differ from art? Jay Ferracane 24:16 Well, it actually at this school, there was kind of, I wouldn't say there was like a rivalry. It's not like cats. And you know, we're like snapping at each other down the hallway, you know, we're gonna fight or anything. But there was this division between the art students and the design students. And we were always taught that art creates visual problems and design solves visual problems. And I think that's a bit of an inaccuracy or a simple oversimplification. But art is usually about how you feel about something. Whereas design really does force you to be super objective, take into account your research and information and display that back to somebody in an engaging and useful kind of way. And I think that's the biggest difference is Is design in most cases, and I can, you can never say never. The design in most cases is rarely about the person who designs it art most of the time is about the person who made that art. Marc Gutman 25:11 Well, that's a good definition that I can understand and easily differentiate between the two. And so you discover this, shall I say, utilitarian way of using design to make a career to communicate the things you want to. Now that all sounds really cool and hip, and you and you're kind of coming out of the skate kind of culture? Like, how do you get into annual report design, Jay Ferracane 25:38 The entire report job was really funny. And it was, um, so the era of when you got a job. And when I was in college, you'd go down to the lower floor and outside the counselor's office, there'd be a board full of, you know, eight and a half by 11 sheets with the tabs off the bottom, and you have a job description in there, and you'd pull the tab off and you'd go find a payphone. And you'd call a place and say, Hey, I'd like to apply or do an interview, or you drive over there and drop off a little sample portfolio. So anyway, I go downstairs, and this wall of all these job postings, there is one that is completely untouched. And so I pulled the entire thing off the wall, and take the entire thing with me and go and call this number. So thinking like, oh, no one else is going to call this. What I didn't know is the word on the street. Within the design parliament, everybody knew how hostile this agency was this really small boutique agency in Palo Alto was, and that's why nobody was applying for internships there. And so my dumb ass goes and grabs, it makes a call. They're like, Yeah, come in next Wednesday, blah, blah, blah, I show them my portfolio, which at this time is primarily illustration, and fine art stuff. But the sheer fact that I had been painting words and stuff in there kind of got me into a little bit of a design category. And it had some type of graphic work in there. And so I go start there. And literally the second day at the studio working for this really small, like, she was maybe five foot tall, it was into couture clothing, she was just a presence. And she was not nice at all, at but I learned how to keep growing up in the military, you just learned how to keep your head down. And you just go and if people are terse with you, you just kind of move on. And it's no big deal. I was pretty used to it. So I go there. And I'm like, gosh, this isn't, you know, that fun, but I'm learning quite a bit. Well, day two, I show up and the entire staff of the agency quits. And so I'm in design school getting ready to get out of design school, and at this time, everybody, there'd be this Exodus every year from the design school, and everyone would go out into the market. And you all have the same portfolio. And as a guy who just wanted to go to work. I'm like, Well, if I stick it out here, I'll have like a couple pieces that will be like my own, it will be real world work, which will make me stand out in the marketplace. So that year, I literally day one, I go and sit with three designers over the course of the day day. And they tell me someone was working on like the Yahoo annual report. So that's their IPO that tells you how long ago this was. We were doing a project for Motorola. And we were doing a project for food irradiation, brands. Now my career gets into a lot of industries like that, that I end up in most people meet me and they go, Oh, you're from California. And you work in the either the record or like motocross industry month, I work on a lot of enterprise software, or a lot of intangible product kind of things. So anyway, I immediately am given three projects that I have to take to print from my second day on the job because there's nobody else left to do it. So talk about your secret to success is when opportunity presents itself and you take advantage of it. And over the course of like the next month or so working at this place. I did take these in I got to finish out these reports. I got to put them in my portfolio. My illustration background helped. Because I was able to, particularly for the food irradiation brand that we were working on. I had to do these like really kind of like abstract vector drawings, that kind of communicated elements that they were doing with their science, their quote, science. And I don't know it was just that that's kind of how my career got started. Now mind you, this little studio sat in the middle of what was a really creative hotspot at that time. I was working next door to IDEO. So I would bump into people at you know the coffee line and shoot the breeze with them about what they were working on. It was really open kind of awesome community there. But that formative experience of my first job working at an annual reports taught me a lot about design because the debt the information density was off the charts. A lot of times you were if an if a company was publishing a report, they didn't have a great year you were actually really doing one of the most elegant apology letters you possibly could, um, or if they did do a great year, you were trying to show like, you know, you had some real opportunity to make them, you know, superstars and the people that were investing in them who got these books feel really validated. So it was kind of a cool tool that any reports also sitting and we're a part of brand that I'm really excited about that, like, they mean a lot to the people who are connected to that business, much more than like a consumer would be, or something like that. So anyway, I learned a lot there. And then, like I said, from there, I did gun work, I went right into a much more digital job after that, but it was very early on. So Marc Gutman 30:36 You talked about it a little bit, but what was it like in the Bay Area at that time? Like what's going on? Like, what's the general scene? Oh, you know, how's it how's it changed? Jay Ferracane 30:46 Yeah, so I would say, you know, I still have clients in the Bay Area. So I have a, at least a somewhat of a lens, you know, I live here in Colorado now. But, you know, prior to COVID times, I was, I was flying back and forth, and my wife's family's from there. So we visit quite a bit. But I would say the early 90s, through the 2000s was like a golden age of, particularly technology. And then that design that came off of that was it was just an amazing place to be in and around really liberal thinking, a lot of openness about ideas. And I think like any, you know, location or industry, for that matter. You know, in the years I've seen it, you know, things have gotten a little bit more conservative, and that might be the scale of business and, and, frankly, the wealth that some of these organizations have, but I think it really, you know, some of the, that period in the 90s 2000s, that's a couple.com booms in there. And there was just this optimism and hope around like, Hey, you have an idea, you can bring that to bear. And there's just so much like, work to be had, and so many things that we got to explain, really for the first time to people so that they could understand the value of these businesses. And that was a really fun thing to me, you know, where I have friends who went and worked at Nike and all that kind of stuff. And I look at the work they do. And it's beautiful. And it's, you know, it's it's something that like every man can connect to, but because of the clients that I just happened to start working in the industries that I started getting a lot of exposure to or experience in, I realized they were no less sexy than a Nike, you know, a company that makes manufacturing software, someone needs that thing, they have a value. And if you can convince somebody, and particularly in the enterprise space, the funny thing about that is, is a lot of times, there's a lot of choices, or at least a few choices for a decision-maker to make. And so my stance on whatever plans I got involved with was way before, you know, making b2b stuff feel like consumer, that was always my bet. I'm like, hey, if someone's going to come here and learn about this particular software that you know, most of the Fortune 500 runs on, but my mom and dad have never heard of, I'm going to try and explain it in a way that feels more like, I don't know, Bang and Olufsen or some other, you know, high-level consumer brand that has a technical background, but still makes a really rad product. I don't see any difference between the two and that was received really well, at that time. And it was such a fun part to be. It was such a, I don't know, it was very formative to be around that time. I think that optimism and connectedness that also this idea that anything is possible, really was like a resonant there at that time. And it was a cool part a cool thing to be a part of. Marc Gutman 33:45 Yeah, I think it's so cool that that was like your training ground that that golden age of tack. And it's interesting, you know, we've had Marty neumeier, who is on on the podcast and considered kind of the godfather of brand, at least brand theory and in articulating a lot of stuff here. And he cut his teeth, designing software boxes, you know, that's his thing. Like it was same idea Jay Ferracane 34:05 Podcast was great. By the way, I really enjoyed his talk and where he took that because Marty and I bet Well, obviously he's working at a galactically higher level than I was at that time. Um, but it was funny to hear him talking about things because I remember those spheres of influence cut rippling through the area. And that was another really cool thing that was happening in the Bay Area at that time is the connections between people I knew of Marty and there were some other great agencies, you know, sapient, at the time was doing some really awesome work. But we actually had a couple of really interesting opportunities to meet guys that went on to do things like salesforce.com and stuff like that, and just hear that because they were advisors at companies. I was working on their brands, and you hear just these little nuggets of things that like, Hey, why don't we try this like, I remember the I'm trying to think of his name that it was he was the marketingguy@salesforce.com, like in the very beginning. And I remember him walking through me through the value of long scroll homepages. And I was like, it was just a fascinating thing, because that wasn't a thing at that time. And when he walked me through the reasoning coming back to, hey, what's design should always have purpose or reason. And when he kind of communicated Well, it depends on the goals of your company. But if one of your goals your company, is is to basically, you know, increase time on your website and do this kind of thing, you give them more content, though, like that. That's, we weren't even thinking like that. And then when Marty started talking about like, thinking through software boxes, and things like that, I even had a really similar experience where I started talking to the people that were using the product. So again, I had some really interesting experiences, not only from people who were doing really great thinking and work, but then I learned to go and ask to put my ego aside and go ask people, how do you use this, you know, empathy, I don't even think was really being talked too much about InDesign at that time. But going and talking to people and like finding out how do you use the software? How does it get shipped? What's that do to the bottom line of a product costs? And we're, you know, Marty's job was to make software more appealing on the Fry's shelf. And I think most software companies after that followed that suit, even though they weren't selling software to consumers, so like, I worked on an enterprise level, install software, like we're guys, we were making PCs, we're installing software. And so you don't need this big $23 box or whatever it was, and you know, what, how cool would it be if you could just mail it a FedEx envelope? So we really thought through some of those problems. And I think because, again, some of the things that we were just starting to listen to and learn and then challenge, just again, kind of goes back to the world of DIY and making, you know, minor threat t-shirts for myself. For my own frickin BMX outfits. I don't see my job today, as much different as that I rarely will ask for permission to go do something I think my job a lot of times is to bring options like that to clients and really help them rethink, hey, this might be I know you want to do it this way. But I will always try and show them like, Hey, we should. What if we thought a little bit differently. And we did something like this. And then a lot of times that's the path we go down. But I wouldn't have learned that how to not been in areas like you know, the bay area that's on Marc Gutman 37:29 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline. or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose-driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again, in this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And so, you know one of the things that I think is really interesting about you is the non well some of the non-professional stuff, right well you're you're real you're real avid cyclist you you live in North boulder on what is effectively a ranch, right? So that goes really well with the Angry Bovine moniker in my work and you work out of a cool you know, retrofitted trailer out on that ranch and so walk me through a little bit like how did you get to Boulder like like, when it's cycling under the picture? Like Like, when did you become this like, cool design rancher dude? Jay Ferracane 39:09 Well, I laughed in the beginning when you said, your non-professional stuff, because I don't, I think that the second you can start being more about the things that you really enjoy and love and how that affects your work. It does kind of turn you into a better professional, but in some ways, it's non-professional. I thought that's where you're gonna go with this. But I think that I've always been interested in I started racing bikes long before I got to Colorado, and I was doing that in college and I've again, hyperactive add I have energy to burn. And so, you know, I got my first mountain bike because my girlfriend at the time who's now my wife was into mountain biking and she's like, you should get a bike and, you know, three months later, I'm like, Well, I need to go race. I'm gonna go enter a contest and you know, see how I do and I did okay, I survived, but then I was addicted. Start Riding competitively. And the one thing that bugged me about cycling, which was kind of funny, was, you know, coming out of 90 skateboard 80s and 90s skateboard culture where you had these, like, you know, big pants, I don't know if you remember that that phase, you know, big pants and baggy shirts, and, and that kind of stuff. And then I go to start racing bikes, and you're in lycra, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, I can't have my friends, you know, see me like this. And I think one of my goals down the road. And now that I designed cycling kits and stuff, I try and make them. It's still like, right, you can't make it that cool. But I try and make it feel more like either, you know, surfer skate apparel, in some way or another, the long story on the getting from the Bay Area to here. I think at a certain point, a lot of creative people just have to ask themselves, how they work best. And then you need to make the decision to live up to that decision. And so I was running an agency in Palo Alto, the economy's doing pretty good. I was actually run an agency, we had two offices, one in San Francisco, and one in Palo Alto. And it was weird because I came back in 10 or 15 years, what after that original working in Anna report shop in the town had changed quite a bit. We had Facebook there now. And it was, you know, Palo Alto wasn't this little sleepy town that supported Stanford anymore. It was kind of a hotbed for venture capitalism. And technology was really going off there. And so it was a great place to run an agency San Francisco, us too. So I returned to that town to run this agency after my stint on the client side. And I ran the agency for about two years, the economy, like I said, was doing really well. But I had two kids now. And I started to realize I was spending more time in my car, I drive seven miles to work. And it would take almost 45 minutes. And I just thought with parking and then walking to your office. And all of a sudden, something in me just wasn't connecting, my neighbors weren't of my same, you know, brain, we had a lot of, there's a lot of opportunity in the Bay Area. So who can fault them for it, we had a lot of people moving in, that become our neighbors, and they really weren't there for the long haul. They came to run a company and go back to wherever they were originally from. My wife had grown up there. So we had a lot of roots in the Bay Area. And we started to say to ourselves, like, hey, how can we spend more time with our kids and raise them in an area where they can still be kids? Because there's a lot of pressure on those on our we felt on kids at that time to be the next tech CEO, and why aren't your kids going to math camp and stuff. And my wife is a very creative individual as well. She does interior design, and she did real estate for years and a lot of staging and that kind of stuff. And now she runs a nonprofit, hence, the ranch story, saving Mustangs, the horse, not the car. And so we made a decision to move to Colorado, though. So we could see our kids more and personally with me, I knew I was doing a level of work where I'm like, I will find work, let's let's move, I really want to see these my kids, as long as they still think I'm cool. And we made the move out here. My agency was like, hey, go there and start a boutique for us. And that was the ultimate plan, I started looking for property and you know, building and that kind of stuff and was going to start hiring talent because they knew that this there was great creative talent out here. And the economy started to kind of shift, we started to go into a little bit of a recession. And because I'm kind of a player-manager in the way that I creative directed I design every day, that's my problem solving methodology. And I would fly back to the Bay Area and fire a couple people and then come back and pick up their work and still present it to clients and ran jobs and but then it just got to be at a certain point. I'm like, This isn't good for my soul anymore. And you know, before we started the call you and I have been chatting about, you know, what comes out of COVID is their opportunity here. And I know some friends in the space that are that are doing some cool things and, and preparing for when it gets good again. But I think the opportunity that I saw was I had a lot of clients who were looking for service, but they couldn't afford agencies anymore. So I had this really interesting opportunity to start my own business and rebuilding where I got to interface directly with clients and then manifest our discussions into the designs I was doing. And so I literally got to start my business in almost the safest way I've ever possible. I moved to Colorado, did my agency thing with the company back in the Bay Area for a little bit and then slowly started up my other business as the other one wound down. even helped them do some jobs for a while. Didn't want to burn any bridges there. And some of the clients that I worked on at the agency are now my clients today 12 years later. So, you know, thinking I'm doing something right but at the end of the day, it's also you're building relationships. You know, I think the work not to be self-effacing but I think I do adequate work. But I'm also there, like I said, and I won't quit on people, and I try and be dependable. And you know, and that's how I got here was literally a decision on, I'm okay at what I do, I should be able to go do it anywhere, let's go so we could spend time with the kids. And then the ranch thing was a funny deal because as my wife's nonprofit started, we realized we couldn't have horses or burros in our backyard in a suburban setting in Boulder, Colorado. So we did move north of town, we found a rundown old little property. And the past five and a half years, we've been literally refinancing building bones, just making a better habitat for the animals we're trying to help. So and that's my family's work. Now, it really gave us like a sense of identity, I think in some way that, you know, my older son works with horses today, my younger son is just conflicts, anything that's mechanical and broken, and you know, my wife everyday goes out and, you know, works the land, and then I have to go build fences. So that's, that's fine. How we ended up here. And so it's very nice of you to say that that's a cool thing. Maybe the name was somewhat self-fulfilling at some point, because we did recently get cows too. So I was destined for it. At some point, I think there are no accidents or mistakes. Marc Gutman 46:17 So you know, before we started recording, you and I were chatting and talking a little bit about this idea of objectivity, and in the creative space today. And what I'd like to do is like shift gears a little bit and change the conversation to that. And I think the prompt was like, Where has it gone? You know, where has subjectivity gone? and creativity today? Jay Ferracane 46:41 Well, and what are the phenomenons that are, are making it harder and harder to find. And I think I saw a film recently that kind of turned on a few light bulbs. For me, I don't know if you've seen the social dilemma yet. But it is an interesting film to check out. But one of the things that's fascinating, if you kind of step away from it, I have, it was it's funny for me, I really do like to believe that design is best served when it's objective. Now, you get to know these slippery slopes, because mark, you present creative all the time. And there might be an idea that's really rooted in research and findings. And you present it to that client and you really believe in it. And then they go Yeah, we just don't like it. And that's the weird thing about our craft, right. For all the objectivity and information and support we have, we might be have behind an idea. At the end of the day, some part of creative particularly when you start putting form, or imagery, or words with it, you get into subjectivity, right? Because if somebody doesn't like that photograph, or if somebody doesn't like that layout, or somebody doesn't like that word, all of a sudden, things get upset. But objectivity, the thing that's kind of fascinating gets kind of called out in this film, and has made me think about it ever since. And even I've had a couple conversations before seeing the film. That's the one thing that a lot of hat while I pitch a lot of work. And I don't always win all the work. But one of the things I like to do is I go back, and I check when things launch. And I like to go and just see Wow, I wonder what came together to make that thing what it was. Because if you go look at something like a website, or even a brochure, or something like that, or campaign, those are organisms, right? It's not just a simple, clear idea that comes out and launches, there's a lot of influences and pressures and things that shape it to be the thing that it is. But it the objectivity is usually my go to tool because I can say, hey, this isn't about me, coming back to empathy. And this is design. objectivity is really about like, hey, let's let's help you, the person that's very close to it, usually the business owner, make some decisions based on being rational in research versus emotional kinds of stuff, which can sometimes be dangerous. And so I guess the things that have come up is like I see a lot of agencies go out and build work, where that idea seems a lot like the way that they serviced a previous client. So were they really being objective? Or were they really just trying to get work out the door? I think that the fascinating byproduct of the media will you digest and social stuff, and that kind of thing is, is, um, our objectivity might be being eroded and a little bit because if we all of a sudden don't hear things we agree with and say I present a creative idea to you that you might not like it. It's, it's usually more divisionary than it is conversation starting. And it's just an interesting phenomenon that I've seen lately, where I really have to do a lot of setup so that I can be Hey, I'm not presenting you this because I feel like this morning. I'm presenting this idea to you because objectivity is pointing us in the direction of these things filled with Goals you've told us to fulfill? And I don't know, are you seeing any of this in your work, you know, where you start to present ideas and it gets biased or something like that in some way or another? Because I know this is this objectivity thing goes far beyond the creative circle. But are you seeing any of it too? It's a fascinating topic to me. Marc Gutman 50:20 Well, I do see it. But I think for me, like when I think about it, and I heard you talking, it's like, you know, before for someone to have a conversation around creative, they had to be in the creative space, or at the very least, you had to go talk to a creative professor, or you had to go to the library right now you can Google. You know, how do I critique a logo, what makes a great logo, what? What is great, create whatever you want, right? And what that does is that makes everybody feeling like that they have some sort of expertise in the in the conversation. Now, I do think it's really interesting that, like, I do think there's a misnomer. And I think this is like not not a current thing. I think this is like, maybe something that happened way back in the days of branding of designers, right? Where there was this idea that a designer would go off in a madman style way and, you know, bang their head against the wall and come up with an amazing idea. And then create as if they were a mad scientist, and a blur of paint and scrap paper, maybe, you know, Warhol or something like that comes to mind. And then or even a Jackson Pollock, but like, you would then take that, that output and tada, you have a, you know, a campaign or a logo or an identity and that it wasn't always rooted in this the sense of objectivity, at least from the client-side, right? That it right, that it was a you know, that's that might be the way that designers approach it. But from the client side, I think that's long been the viewpoint. And so maybe you're just experiencing it more, in today's kind of world where things are coming, maybe a little unfiltered, or in a different way. But I don't know, I feel like you know, the brand of a designer, at least publicly facing is, is, as I described, and less about solving real problems about being objective, and less about removing themselves from the process. Yep. where, you know, it's like, oh, who's this famous designer Who's this and we are living in this age of famous graphic designers, right. And that's also a weird thing that you and I have talked about where, you know, there really shouldn't be famous designers that it's not about the designers but here we are. Jay Ferracane 52:44 When it is funny of John Violin Berg, I don't know if you know him, but fascinating individual, he runs up a thing called Project m, at a number of other things. He was doing an interview once, and he he was introduced as being a famous designer. And then he kind of shrugged it off and was like, well, being a famous designer is is a is like being a famous plumber, only other plumbers know you. And so, uh, but I do think famous designers are known outside of certain circles. And I think the danger in it is a no, no danger is probably a like too prescriptive is a little too serious. It's not dangerous, right. But it is an interesting phenomena, I really look at myself as I'm a capitalist. That's my design shtick. And what I've had to realize too, is a lot of designers need to have their things so that when people are out there in their selection process, looking for creative help, they find the one that works best with them, I happen to work in a really a capitalistic kind of way where I want to interface with clients, I believe they know so much more about their business, then I could ever and I want those nuggets and pieces of information that I want to go do my research and I want to interview their customers, and I want to really talk to them about how the design we're about to do whatever it may be, also helps them at the end of the day, like you know, if you've got to if we're going to do a brand and we end up doing a website in that brand, and you know, they only have to marketing people on the marketing staff. Do you want to go build a website that requires like a team from MIT to update it every day? Probably not. Like, like, stick them on WordPress and, you know, maybe think through before you ever design the brand is you know, you think through like, how easy will this thing be to update if that's a part of their business premise. So coming back to this idea of objectivity. I think one of the things that I get concerned about is is that if people go to an agency for a specific look, or the request and I've gotten this request before is like we'll just do for us what you did for x, right. I think that's a really hard place to be as a designer because Eyes, if we're being objective about their business and who they are as a brand, you need to kind of re-inventory all their parts and in some weird way, maybe you'll get the crazy math that works out and says, Yeah, I guess we could do exactly what we did for this other brand for you guys. But more often than not the little point oh, 1% shift that makes them a different business. Maybe it's just the fact that they're doing exactly what business a is doing on the west coast, they just happen to be in Cleveland, Ohio, that might be enough of a difference to change their whole brand persona. So anyway, I just think this idea of objectivity as a bigger concept, meaning like, Hey, how are we really looking at things through an honest, authentic kind of lens in some of my recent experiences, and again, I'm not an absolute type of person. But I've seen a lot of hints of like, hey, that's not as important as you may think it is. And that's just my kind of view on design these days. Marc Gutman 56:03 So then, and thanks for that, Jan. And I appreciate that. And so like, in addition to that, like, what's hard about design, What don't we see? Like, what What don't we get to the person who's, who's not living at every day? Jay Ferracane 56:17 Well, design is funny, because like, it's, um, I have met some guys that that can literally they go and they clock in, and then they're designing, I think, for me, what's hard about design is, it's never really done. And then in my mind, in some way, I'm, I don't want to say a member, just I'm dissatisfied. But I always think like, how could it be optimized? How and, you know, from an hourly standpoint, designers make a pretty good living doing, you know, doing what we're doing, I don't think it's as hard as like, as a guy who's, who's run a ton of fence and built sheds and done construction and his life. I don't go home with that kind of tired every day. But there's a cerebral kind of like, wearing that is it's consuming. I think that's one of the things that that's hard about design is is that a year you're at dinner with your wife, and she's like, You're not listening to me right now. And your brain is off trying to like write a headline or figure out why a layout isn't working. And then you have to like re-enter and you have to apologize, you know, you're driving down the road, and someone goes, did you see that Billboard and you're like, nope, but it was set and Gill Sans, like, it's just, it's, it's it, I think there's a periphery that designers exist in that we're, I feel like, at least as a designer, I'm always on, like, meaning like, I'm always trying to process whatever work I have in front of me, in some way or another. And so from an hourly standpoint, that's one thing that's hard about is it's just constant. And, and I've never even in cycling, or skateboarding, I was never a guide, it was good. Like, Hey, I'm going to stop for two weeks or a month, and then I'll just come back and hope I'm exactly the same. design has a hand It has a movement to it. And I recently just started doing a bunch of writing for a brand. And I luckily, I had to fill out some paperwork prior to doing that. And I realized how, like, I just wasn't great at typing, because I hadn't been like, writing prose for a little bit. And, and so like, I think that's one of the things that's hard about it. Um, I think that if you pair that with genuinely wanting to do good work, it puts a lot of anxiety on the designer. And I think that's one of those things. I remember when you know, I drop a proposal to a client job might not start for two weeks, I'd start worrying about will I have good ideas? And I still do that today, will I be able to solve those problems when it's time to start? And I now well, knowing enough what I know about myself as a designer, I just know that that is a thing. And I have to acknowledge it and you go, Hey, I know you're there little weird anxiety. And this is going to be how you feel until you really get your hands into it. In fact, to this writing example that I'm, I'm really working on right now like I did this thing where you kind of like, constantly check email, or go look at results of you know, sports results, and you do anything but work on the thing because you're fearful of like getting started and so I think my process as a designer to eliminate air quotes, some of the hard stuff is actually just fucking getting to work and start hammering it out. And even if some of the work is throw away that I had to paint a painting teacher A long time ago, just tell me, I would sit there in front of like a blank canvas or big sheet of paper or whatever. And so what he would do is he would he told me like pick up your brush or piece of charcoal and he would take my hand and just run it on the paper. He goes making the first marks the hardest thing and then he would just walk off. And I'm like, Oh, so sometimes just getting started is one of the things that makes design hard. I think genuinely coming back to that idea is like you want to do a good job. most creative people care for a couple of Reasons a, you want to do a good job because someone's paying you good money to help them communicate their thing. The you get into the I'm going to call it the Andre 5000. World, he wasn't an outcast reference, it's an outcast reference, you're only as funky as your last cut you and I'll tell you one thing that I've really learned it, or at least been re-exposed to it is just because I guess most creatives should never ever really get comfortable that they have to no longer prove themselves, because that's a really dangerous place to be. Because I think as creatives we're always proving ourselves, that's really our job, hey, we've given you this problem, show us how you're going to solve it. That's proof, right? And so that that second feature in there that you're only funky as your last cut, comes back to caring about the work you do. But you also want to do really great work, because you know that that work that you're doing at that moment ensures more work comes down the road, because this is such a referral kind of world to so yeah, it is funny to say it's hard because it isn't like ditch digging, but it is there's an anxiety that comes with it that requires a lot of management and it can you can kind of get in your head and but you know, i