Podcasts about like like

Have you ever wondered what your favorite podcast host can't-live-without items are? Yes, I finally agreed to the episode that I've been dreading to do - the favorite things episode. In this heartwarming and hilarious episode, Lauren and I got to ditch the gatekeeping and spill the tea on our absolute favorite things. From morning rituals and must-have beauty products to go-to recipes and inspiring books, this episode is a peek into the life of your favorite podcast host and my co-host/BFF Lauren. Join the Conversation! We want to hear from you! Share your favorite things, morning rituals, or dream dinner guests on social media using the hashtag #FriendsDontGatekeep. Don't forget to tag us @biancaolthoff and @laurenbronsonpetrous and you will be entered to win some of our favorite things! Details below.  Share the love and subscribe, rate, and review the podcast!  XO, B RESOURCES/LINKS Co-host Lauren Bronson Petrous https://boundlessandco.com/  Favorite Things List: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/dv5ds7sqwxf0wqvttksbj/WGT-Ep-177-Favorite-Things-List.pdf?rlkey=pewgctmobkmxvh0vz9mhf9scr&st=u9s3h5mu&dl=0  Giveaway rules: 1. Eligibility: Open to ​​everyone. Must be ​1​2 years or older. 2. How to Enter: Follow: Follow ​Bianca @biancaolthoff and Lauren @laurenbronsonpetrous on ​Instagram account. Like: Like the post associated with this episode. 3. Prize: ​5 lucky winners will receive:  1 Travel-size Grande Lash MD Lash Serum 1 Travel-size Caudalie Face Spray, and 1 "Grit Don't Quit" book. The prize is non-transferable and has no cash value. 4. Winner Selection: The winner will be selected at random. The winner will be notified via ​Instagram direct message. 5. Deadline: The giveaway​ starts on Monday, ​December 2nd​ at 1am PST through ​Monday, December ​9th ​at 1pm PST 6. Additional Terms: By entering the giveaway, you agree to ​I​TNOL's rules. ​I​TNOL reserves the right to modify or cancel the giveaway at any time. ​I​TNOL is not responsible for lost, late, or misdirected entries. ⋇ Convoy of Hope - Empowering Women and Girls Together Donate here https://convoyofhope.org/bianca/  ⋇ Bianca's new book Grit Don't Quit: Developing Resilience And Faith When Giving Up Isn't An Option. https://amzn.to/3MO74OC  ⋇ The Grit Don't Quit Bible Study is now available. https://www.biancaolthoff.com/gdq  ⋇ So grateful to our sponsors! ⋇ Subscribe to We're Going There on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss out on any of the great topics and conversations. Don't forget to leave a loving review! Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/were-going-there-with-bianca-juarez-olthoff/id1529509063?uo=4  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6RpqUTDQWWKDHt1yLQlMKW  ⋇ Visit biancaolthoff.com/resources to learn more about books and other resources from Bianca. https://www.biancaolthoff.com/resources  ⋇ Want to stay connected, join the community today. https://www.biancaolthoff.com/  ⋇ WGT email: podcast@inthenameoflove.org ⋇ Music by: Brad Tsushima, Instagram: @bradtsushima, email: bradtsushima94@aol.com, Spotify: “R.A.D.” ⋇ Youtube: https://youtu.be/ESrHfNI14ww Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Like Like Life's Only Going to Get Better (Isaish 25:6-9) - 11/3/2024 by Divine Grace Lutheran Church

What can we learn about Christian discipleship from The Chronicles of Narnia?   In today's episode, Brandon and Matt interview Joe Rigney, author of the book, Live Like a Narnian: Christian Discipleship in Lewis's Chronicles. Joe shares his perspective on Christian discipleship as whole person formation and how he believes C.S. Lewis's books directly further this formation. The conversation then turns towards specific characters and scenes from the books and how they shape our thinking and desire to align with the true, good, and beautiful. Stick around to hear about how books are like friends and why contrasting the books against the movies can be helpful!   Thanks for tuning in! May this show awaken you to the reality of beauty in our world! Jesus loves you.    Follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Check out our website for more resources! Thanks to Rex Daugherty for creating the original theme music for this podcast. He's an award-winning artist and you can check out more of his work at rex-daugherty.com

Experts predict that millions of people around the world will have to migrate by 2050 because of sea level rise linked to climate change. How will they cope? Jordan Dunbar hears stories from Fiji and the UK.Email us your comments and questions to theclimatequestion@bbc.com or WhatsApp: +44 8000 321 721Presenter: Jordan Dunbar Producers: Octavia Woodward and Graihagh Jackson Sound mix: Tom Brignell Editor: Simon Watts

In this week's episode, I take a look at why I don't set up preorders and I usually don't write prequels. I also share my thoughts about the video game STARFIELD. TRANSCRIPT 00:00:00 Introduction and Writing Updates Hello, everyone. Welcome to Episode 219 of The Pulp Writer Show. My name is Jonathan Moeller. Today is September the 20th, 2024 and today we are discussing why I don't set up preorders for my books and why I prefer not to write prequels. Before we get to our main topic, we'll have an update on my current writing projects, Question of the Week, then we'll talk about a video game I recently enjoyed, and then we'll plunge on ahead to our main topic. First up, current writing and audiobook projects. I am pleased to report that Shield of Conquest is now completely finished and available. You can get it at all the usual ebook stores. It has been selling quite briskly and has been receiving good reviews. So thank you all for that. My next main project, which you can probably guess if you've been listening to the show for the last few months, is Ghost in the Tombs. As of this writing, I am 62,000 words into it, which I think puts me about 62% of the way through it, because I believe the rough draft will be around 100,000 words. I'm hoping to have that out towards the middle of October, if all goes well. I'm also 21,000 words into Cloak of Illusion. That should hopefully be out in November and I've just started what will be the fourth Rivah book, Orc-Hoard. It originally had been entitled Elven Sorcerer for the fourth Rivah book, but I decided to change the title to Orc-Hoard and that will be out in either December or January, if all goes well. In audiobook news, Stealth and Spells Online: Leveling is completely done and currently working its way through processing and the various audiobook platforms. You can get it at my Payhip store right now and it should be available at all the other stores in a couple of weeks. Stealth and Spells Online: Leveling was excellently narrated by CJ McAllister. Recording is almost done on Shield of Darkness, and hopefully we can approve the final version of that next week and then that'll work its way through processing and be available before too much longer. So that's where I am with my current writing and audiobook projects. 00:02:00 Question of the Week Now it's time for Question of the Week, designed to inspire interesting discussions of enjoyable topics. This week's question: what is the most annoying video game enemy? Obviously, there is no profound reason behind this question, since we're talking about video games. I happened to be reading an article about the upcoming Starfield expansion, and the comments devolved into a rambling discussion of game design and most annoying enemies, which inspired this question. We had a good range of responses. Reader AM wrote in to say that her greatest video game enemy is her own hand-eye coordination. We've all been there, AM; we've all been there. Justin says: The Legend of Zelda series is a great bunch of video games, but they do have their annoying bits. I nominate the Like Like worm. To get sucked in and spit back out (minus your shield) is incredibly aggravating. I cannot count the number of shields I've lost to this adversary. Later versions steal money or health, but for me, you know, the annoyance of having to go back to town to get a replacement shield (while trying to avoid encounters) ranks up there. Legend of Zelda also has annoying characters. Navi is the most so- her cry of “Hey! Listen!” quickly becomes painful. I too remember the Like Like worm from the Legend of Zelda days and that was indeed very annoying. JD says: Cliff racers from Morrowind. Do I need to say more? Juana says: the vampire guarding the sewers in Vampire: the Masquerade-Bloodlines. You have to be maxed out in at least two disciplines to take them out. It's really difficult to get maximum disciplines. Ross says: at least for me, it's Cliff racers in Morrowind. They're so far out ahead of anything else, I can't even think of what I'd put in second place. Morgan says: not sure of all time, but in terms of more recent games, the Zoanthropes in Space Marine 2 are an absolute nightmare, especially when they come in pairs so one is always shielding the other. Jesse says: Seymour in Final Fantasy 10. Only boss I remember that you have to beat five times. Jenny says: that drum boss in Ocarina of Time. William says: Zelda 2 has no shortage of troublesome enemies, like the Iron Knuckles. It's probably for the best I never had the chance to play it back in the day without save states. Brandy says: The first multiplayer run through Diablo, where you're through the Easter Egg levels and every other flick of the mouse you're screaming “run away, run away!” or “hold still, so I might smite thee!” For myself, my answer would be those stupid Medusa Heads from the Castlevania series. If you've played any Castlevania game, you know what I'm talking about. You'll be climbing the stairs and the Medusa Head will somehow come in at exactly the right angle to avoid all your weapons and to knock you off the stairs to your death at the same time. Honestly, a lot of the old school Castlevania Games are much more enjoyable with save states on modern systems. A very strong runner up would be Lakitu from Super Mario Brothers. He's the guy in the cloud who drops all those Spiny Shells on your head. So we had quite a good range of responses this week, thought it appears that the Morrowind Cliff Racer may take the championship. 00:04:49 Thoughts on Starfield Speaking of video games, I actually wanted to talk about Starfield a little bit because I beat the main quest in Starfield this month. By my standards, this is fast. I first started playing Skyrim in 2011, and I finally beat the main quest in autumn 2020 on the Switch version, since that was during the height of COVID and there wasn't much else to do. By contrast, Starfield came out in September 2023, so I beat the main quest in just a little bit over a year. So here are my thoughts on the game. Overall, I would say I really liked it. It does capture the feel of being a competent space adventurer wandering around the galaxy. You can do bounty hunting, pirate hunting, mining, exploring, and a variety of other stuff. Back in the ‘90s, I really liked Wing Commander: Privateer, which had infinite random missions and Starfield kind of feels like an enormously expanded version of Privateer, or like Privateer with a Halo game attached to it, given the wide variety of firearms you can obtain. In the grand tradition of Bethesda Games, you don't even have to do the main quest or any of the scripted side quests. You can just wander around visiting random planets and fighting space pirates forever. Honestly, I probably spent more time playing randomly generated side missions than any of the scripted quests. That said, I very much liked some of the scripted side missions. The Vanguard plotline was the best of them, in my opinion. You have to help the United Colonies find the origins of a super deadly alien predator called the Terrormorph, and at the end there's a genuinely hard moral question: does the greater good justify the means for people in positions of authority? The game also improved quite a bit since launch with new patches. The updates added a city map feature which is massively useful and a Space Car you can use for driving across planetary surfaces, which makes a lot of the game's missions quite a bit simpler and easy. Now, while I enjoyed Starfield, I concede that many of its critics had a point about its weaknesses. The game relies a lot on procedural generation. Every time you land on a planet, a bunch of nearby dungeons and features are randomly generated. This can get repetitive, though honestly I don't mind that very much. It makes it easier to play the game in bite sized chunks when it's late and I'm tired and I just want to mow down some Space Pirates or something. What is annoying is that sometimes the procedurally generated locations don't match with the procedurally generated quests, which locks you out of finishing some of the randomly generated quests. That was really irritating, though it only tends to happen at very high levels. The game's main plot revolved around multiverse stuff, and as I've mentioned frequently before, I am not a big fan of the multiverse as a storytelling concept. However, it works better in a video game than in a movie or a book, and Starfield's implementation of it is quite clever. Many games have the New Game Plus concept where you beat the game and then you start a new game, but things are slightly different. In Starfield, when you beat the game, you go to a new universe, you lose all your possessions, but you keep all your skills and knowledge, so you're starting the new game at level 65 or whatever. Additionally, a lot of the quests are subtly altered because your character knows in advance what is going to happen from the previous universe, so you can get a better outcome than you did the last time, which is honestly a kind of a clever game mechanic, which makes it a compelling journey to go from universe to universe and to put right what once went wrong. Anyway, I enjoyed Starfield and I will definitely play the Shattered Space expansion, which comes out at the end of September, but enough talk about video games. 00:08:14 Main Topic of the Week: Preorders and Prequels This is writing podcast, so let's move on to our main topic, preorders and prequels. I have to admit preorders and prequel sounds like a really lame tabletop RPG for indie authors. Like if you roll a 20, your book gets picked up as an Amazon Daily deal for the US, but if you roll 1, your book file gets corrupted and you can't figure out how to fix it. Anyway, the inspiration for this alliterative title was that someone asked me about preorders, and someone else asked me about prequels within 24 hours. So let's start with prequels. Reader Juan writes in to ask about preorders: something I noticed about your books. There's never a preorder option on Apple Books. Is this by design? I know you self-publish so I didn't know if that was a publisher feature or if there's a way to preorder there. If not, no worries, I just know Apple takes a little longer to load the book. Preorders are available to self-publishers, but the reason I don't do preorders is by design. I never do preorders for a couple different reasons, which we'll go through right now. #1: the consequences of missing a preorder date are moderately negative. If you miss a preorder date on Amazon, you get locked out of doing another one for the following 12 months. I'm not sure what happens if you miss a preorder on Apple Books, but I suspect it's about the same level of penalty and this ties directly into reason two. #2 is that life is chaotic and unpredictable, and I absolutely hate making promises I end up unable to keep. Like if I get sick or something in Real Life comes along that I have to deal with immediately, I could easily miss a week of writing time, which would make hitting the preorder date either very stressful or impossible. #3: If I wrote like only two books a year, I might do preorders. That would give me enough of a cushion of time to make sure that everything is ready to go well in advance of the launch date. But I usually write and publish like ten books a year, sometimes more. With books coming out so frequently, organizing that many pre-orders would be a serious headache and sometimes I don't actually decide what I'm going to write next until the day comes and I actually sit down to start writing. Like at the end of 2023, I pretty much decided on impulse to finish writing Half-Elven Thief and had that be my last book of the year in 2023. So with the amount I write and publish, managing the logistics of so many pre-orders would be a serious headache. #4: And finally, reason number four and the most important reason: the worst consequence of missing a preorder is a loss of reader confidence. Without going into details, let's say there's been enough of that in the fantasy genre already, so preorders have too many negatives and not enough positives, at least for my situation. I'd rather just make a good faith effort of having things come out when I can and announcing them via my newsletter. Speaking of which, if you sign up for my newsletter, you get regular free short stories. Now onto prequels. Concerning prequels, reader Danny writes in to ask: May I suggest writing a series of prequels to the Cloak Game series? Shield of Conquest made me hope that it would be a prequel book to the Cloak Game series, a book that speaks about the invasion of Earth by the elves and brings some backstory of the relationship between Kathran Morvilind and Tarlia- a teacher and a student, and the discovery and invasion of Earth, or other back stories that were not developed enough. For example, what about Aiden, brother of Riordan, or Riordan's experience as a Shadow Hunter? Generally speaking, I am not a big fan of writing prequels. I have written a couple of prequel novels out of the 155 books I've written (Frostborn: The First Quest comes to mind) and sometimes I'll do short stories as a flashback. Probably the most recent example of that is Prophecy of the High Queen, the short story that describes the first meeting between Nadia and the High Queen written from the High Queen's perspective. The High Queen uses magic to look into Nadia's past and her various potential futures, and so the short story bounces all over the place in time. I have also written novels that kind of jump around in time. In Cloak of Iron, the scenes from Lauren Casey's perspective go back to even before the Cloak Game series actually started to set up why Lauren was desperate enough to save her brother that that she was willing to deal with someone like Mr. Shang of the Deathless Society. Or in the very first Nadia book, Games: Thief Trap, where we blur through the first twenty years of Nadia's life in the first chapter. That said, I do write the short stories in mind as bonus materials like the extra scenes on a movie DVD. However, at this point I don't think I would write a prequel novel, and I certainly wouldn't write a prequel series. Why not? It feels like prequels are sort of like procrastinating before you continue on the main story, which is likely what most readers really want. I've noticed some writers (again, without going into details) have a bad habit of writing prequels instead of getting on with the main story. Making yourself continue the main story instead of getting sidetracked by prequels or side quests is difficult, but it must be done for the greater good of the story. Additionally, a big problem with prequels is it's extremely difficult to generate narrative tension because you know in advance that certain characters are going to survive or certain situations are going to play out in a way you've already read in subsequent books. If I did, for example, my Andomhaim series as a prequel series, it would be set in a region of the world we've never visited and with characters we never encountered before, so that way there is a dramatic tension that the reader doesn't know how things are going to end and that will make the book more enjoyable. Also, some things are really better left to the reader's imagination, and that can include back stories. Writing fiction is in some ways an exercise in creating a line drawing and letting the imagination of the reader provide color and shadow. Like, since we've been talking about Nadia, here's someone describing her from a first-person perspective:  "A woman in a dark coat and black jeans sat across from me. She had red-tinged brown hair tied in a loose ponytail and pale grey eyes the color of knives. I thought she looked like she could stand to eat more. That, combined with the eyes, gave her a look of feverish, almost unsettling intensity. I probably outweighed her by a good ninety pounds, but I felt the sudden urge to reach for the gun I wasn't carrying." Now that's just a line drawing, right? Yet every reader will fill in that line drawing with something from his or her own imagination. In the same way, I think it is sometimes (even frequently) best to let the reader's imagination fill in the details of the character's backstory. Like Riordan- we know he tried to save his brother Aidan and failed. We know that he became a Shadow Hunter and that his first wife joined the Rebels and tried to murder him to score points with her new friends. I could write out a prequel series describing those events, but I think at this point it wouldn't be as vivid as the one that readers have generated in their imaginations. Besides, writing a prequel story would be a distraction from the main story. So that is why I don't set up preorders and I don't usually write prequels. So that is it for this week. Thanks for listening to The Pulp Writer Show. I hope you found the show useful. A reminder that you can listen to all the back episodes on https://thepulpwritershow.com. If you enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review on your podcasting platform of choice. Stay safe and stay healthy and see you all next week.

In this episode of "Dishing with Stephanie's Dish," we had a delightful conversation with the talented cookbook author Kelly Jaggers. She shared her insights about her latest creation, "The Ultimate Meal Planning for One Cookbook," and her journey as a cookbook writer. Kelly's passion for creating recipes perfectly scaled for one person's enjoyment shines through her work, making her books a treasure trove for solo diners. She has 4 books currently in the “Cooking For One” series including:Join us as we delve into Kelly's culinary background, her inspirations for writing cookbooks, and her love for food, hockey, and dogs. So, grab a cup of your favorite beverage and join us in this engaging conversation with Kelly Jaggers.COOKBOOK GIVEAWAYI have two copies of this cookbook to give away. To be included in the giveaway, send me any comment here, and I will contact the winner via email and mail the book to your home. FINAL TRANSCRIPT:Stephanie [00:00:15]:Hello, everybody, and welcome to dishing with Stephanie's dish, the podcast where we talk to cookbook authors and people generally obsessed with food. Today, we have a cookbook author, and it is Kelly Jaggers. Welcome to the program, Kelly.Kelly Jaggers [00:00:27]:Thank you so much for having me.Stephanie [00:00:29]:Yes. So you wrote something that I find really fascinating. It's called the ultimate meal planning for 1 cookbook, and you previously wrote the ultimate Mediterranean diet cookbook for 1. Mhmm. What got you into, like, cooking for 1 person? Because I did notice that you're now married.Kelly Jaggers [00:00:49]:I am married. So just because I'm married doesn't mean I don't understand the, ins and outs of what people who are solo might need. Yes. I do spend a few days a week at home by myself. My husband works. Sometimes he travels. And on those dates, I'm just cooking for me. I don't have kiddos, just me and the dogs.Kelly Jaggers [00:01:06]:So it was important for me to learn how to scale down recipes so that I could enjoy them just for myself without having excessive leftovers. And that just really parlays well into the book series that I've been working on, because it's kind of a I wouldn't say so niche, but kind of overlooked audience for cookbooks.Stephanie [00:01:23]:For sure.Kelly Jaggers [00:01:23]:Thinking right. They're thinking about families, married couples, people with loads of kids or planning for parties. But what about those people who are, for whatever reason, cooking for themselves because maybe they're single or they have a spouse or an SO or a partner who works multiple days away from home or maybe they're on a special diet from an SO. And so, like, they're planning just for themselves.Stephanie [00:01:44]:Yeah.Kelly Jaggers [00:01:44]:So lots of reasons why you might just be cooking for yourself. So it's not just because you're a single, although you probably maybe you are. That's also fine. Like, I don't judge. Whatever. So, yeah, it was important for me to kind of, kinda fill that gap and to help, to fill out that market a little bit.Stephanie [00:01:58]:I feel uniquely, interested in this topic after just having spent 2 weeks with my mother-in-law who's 92, and she still does all her own cooking. And every time I was gonna make something, she acted sort of horrified at my portions because she's used to cooking for just herself. So she's always really keenly in tune to not cooking too much so she doesn't have to eat the same thing for 5 days.Kelly Jaggers [00:02:25]:Exactly.Stephanie [00:02:26]:Yep. Because leftovers are a problem when you're when you're single.Kelly Jaggers [00:02:30]:I mean, leftovers are great for 1, maybe 2 meals, but, like, five meals of lasagna in a week or 5 meals of, whatever it is that you've made. Yeah. It can get a little get a little depressing. Right? And it makes you not wanna cook, make you wanna reach for a takeout menu, and that's so expensive. So you're wasting food, spending more on maybe delivery or takeout than maybe you've planned for in the budget. So why not think about meals that are scaled for 1 to 2 portions? I think that makes a lot of sense for people who are thinking about their budget, thinking about ways to reduce food waste, which is so important too. Right? Food is so expensive these days. If you go to the grocery store, it's so high.Kelly Jaggers [00:03:09]:I don't wanna be throwing that food away. I'm gonna eat what I bought. So I wanna plan for meals that I can make, just in the portions that I want.Stephanie [00:03:16]:Your book is beautifully done in lots of ways. So Thank you. First of all, the design of itKelly Jaggers [00:03:23]:Yeah. Yeah. I love They did such a wonderful job with it. It's so, so pretty.Stephanie [00:03:29]:It's pretty. It's simple. It's easy to follow. You have pictures for most of the recipes. You also have, like, calorie counts, fat, protein, carbohydrates. So if someone is watching their calories, that's really helpful.Kelly Jaggers [00:03:45]:Yeah. Yeah.Stephanie [00:03:45]:We've got it also broken down into proteins, which we're kind of obsessing these days about if we're getting enough protein. So I loved that. Yeah. I also really liked the size of it and the paper, and it just feels like a manual I can pop in my purse and, you've got shopping lists, meal plans. It's really quite well done.Kelly Jaggers [00:04:08]:Thank you. Thank you. It's, it was a labor of love. I think that the most challenging part of the book was the meal plans is coming up with the 8 weeks of meal plans and the shopping lists because I wanted to make sure that the meal plans included a variety of recipes from the book. Nothing was too, like, Mexican every single night or, like, chicken every single night. I wanted to make sure there's plenty of variety. And to give an example for people who maybe have never sat down to meal plan before to say, like, this is what you can do. These are the kinds of recipes you can plan for.Kelly Jaggers [00:04:37]:This is an idea of what your week might look like, but feel free to plug and play. Right? Like, oh, I'm not such a big fan of this recipe. I'd rather have this. And you can just plug it into the meal plan and make it easy for you to customize and individualize so that as you start this meal planning journey, you have these great tools and you can just kind of utilize the week over week for yourself.Stephanie [00:04:58]:And the prep list too were really thoughtful. I think when you're cooking for because I do cook from 1 a lot, actually, 2. Mhmm. In my food life, because I'm doing recipe development, I'm, you know, usually making recipes for 2 to 6. Yep. But my husband in the summertime lives at our cabin for the most part. So I am cooking for myself a lot. And if I'm not eating recipe leftovers, which usually I end up giving to my neighbors because I don't really wanna eat what I just cooked.Kelly Jaggers [00:05:29]:I don't know why. Completely understand. I'm the same way.Stephanie [00:05:31]:I'm aKelly Jaggers [00:05:31]:first creature. It. Cooked it all day. I don't wanna consume it. I get it.Stephanie [00:05:35]:I photographed it. I'm just sayingKelly Jaggers [00:05:37]:with it all day, and I just don't want it. Yes.Stephanie [00:05:39]:So I'm, like, always running around the neighborhood, like, who needs food?Kelly Jaggers [00:05:43]:Who's hungry? I have I have meals. Please take these foods from me.Stephanie [00:05:46]:Yes. So, like, then I'm just myself and I'm like, oh, well, okay. What am I gonna just make for myself? And I always end up making too much. So then I've got, like, food and I again, I'm very conscientious about food waste too. But so I really enjoyed, the way that the book was put together. How did you get into cookbook writing? Were you a blogger first?Kelly Jaggers [00:06:08]:I was. I was. So, I had a blog. It still exists out there. I'm not updating it, obviously, but it was evil shenanigans.com. The shenanigans are evil because they're good for your taste buds, but maybe not so great for your waistline. And I started working on that blog when I went to culinary school. I was going to culinary school to become a baker.Kelly Jaggers [00:06:26]:I wanted to open my own bakery. I had these really grand plans. And I walked into bakery pastry management, one of my last classes for my degree, and the teacher came in and she's I'll never forget. She said, first thing she said before she even introduced herself was 90% of bakeries fail in the 1st year. It's about a $1,000,000 total investment. And I was like, and with that, I'm out. I am risk averse. I I know how hard it is to earn my money, and I was not interested in that.Kelly Jaggers [00:06:50]:So now what do I do with this education I've acquired? I don't wanna work in restaurants. I didn't wanna have that kind of, like, you know, chef y lifestyle that that's not me.Stephanie [00:06:59]:The beer doesn't appeal to you?Kelly Jaggers [00:07:01]:No. No. I am a gentle soul. Soul. I don't think I could handle it. I would cry every day.Stephanie [00:07:06]:Yep.Kelly Jaggers [00:07:07]:So I I started writing a blog during my culinary school journey, and so I just kinda focused in on that for a while, trying to figure out, like, what am I gonna do? And about a year into working on the blog, I received an email from a publisher asking if I was interested in working on a book on pies. And I looked around and said, are you sure you mean me? And they did. And so I wrote my very first book, which was the Everything Pie Cookbook. And sinceStephanie [00:07:29]:then had that. Yeah.Kelly Jaggers [00:07:31]:Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And so since then, I've written, a number of books for my publisher. I write roughly 1 a year right now. So I do the books and also the photography as well. So, on top of the books I write and shoot, I also shoot photography for other people's cook books.Kelly Jaggers [00:07:46]:So, so it's been a lot of fun. Yeah. Just like a nice little transition from, like, culinary school, I wanna be a baker, to now I write cookbooks and study food for a living, and it's the best, and I love it.Stephanie [00:07:57]:And you're not doing or you're not updating your blog at the same time, so your whole focus is really on your cookbook each year.Kelly Jaggers [00:08:04]:Yeah. Yeah. It it it's a labor of love. It's one of those things that, you've, I think, written a cookbook, so I think you understand. And developing recipes too. It's one of those things where I want them to be right. I want the recipes to work. So I do spend a lot of time working on the recipes, thinking about ingredients, studying what's trending, but also thinking about what will still taste good in 10 years.Kelly Jaggers [00:08:25]:So I want things to be up to date and current, but I don't want them to be so up to date that people are like, oh, we're so over this. You know?Stephanie [00:08:31]:Yeah.Kelly Jaggers [00:08:32]:So I spend a lot of time thinking about those things. So, yeah, that's that's what I do. I do photography. I do the cookbook writing, and then I also do, a little bit of light personal chef and catering work in town.Stephanie [00:08:42]:So Where do you live?Kelly Jaggers [00:08:44]:I live in the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex.Stephanie [00:08:46]:Oh, nice. I just, I, I was just doing a cooking demonstration yesterday from 1 from my cookbook, and there's an recipe in there for king ranch chicken that was my mother in law's from Houston. And, you know, I know in Texas, like, everybody knows king ranch chicken is like our wild rice soup. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Was just so impressed with this King Ranch chicken. And I was like, people, I did not invent this thing.Stephanie [00:09:12]:You know? This has been being made in Texas for some time.Kelly Jaggers [00:09:15]:It's called the king ranch. Yeah. It's from the king ranch, and it's, yeah. It's very, very famous in the state. We I think everyone grew up eating it that I knew.Stephanie [00:09:24]:Yeah. And it is delicious. So you can VeryKelly Jaggers [00:09:26]:tasty. Yeah. No. It's it's for that.Stephanie [00:09:28]:It's oneKelly Jaggers [00:09:28]:of those things you kinda can't go wrong with.Stephanie [00:09:30]:So And, you know, they were asking me all these intimate questions about, like, the tortillas and what kind and how long they last. And I just I thought, oh, this is when you write a cookbook, you're writing it in your own vacuum, essentially. And these are the kinds of questions that cooks have that I wasn't thinking about when I wrote the recipe. Yeah. So I'll get better on the second book about thinking about some of that. But I think with each book, you get better. Don't you think?Kelly Jaggers [00:09:55]:Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's it's, the first book's a challenge. You you kinda don't I hate to say you don't know what you're doing, but, like, you write recipes. You know how to develop recipes. But have you written a book before? No. No. I ended up writing my first book over the course of basically a week.Kelly Jaggers [00:10:11]:We had a snowstorm in Dallas that year, and it basically shut the entire city down. All the roads were frozen over. We were actually hosting the Super Bowl that year too, so it was kind of like this thing where I was watching the news where the they were like, can we even have it? It's all snowed in, and I'm like, it'sStephanie [00:10:26]:a quarterKelly Jaggers [00:10:27]:of an inch of snow. It's so small. Yeah.Stephanie [00:10:29]:And we were laughing at all of you. Just like, oh my god. What is going on in Dallas?Kelly Jaggers [00:10:34]:Well, we don't have the infrastructure in place, and, also, we can't we drive aggressively. Anyway, so I ended up getting stuck at home for week. And I'm like, well, I guess I'll just work on the book. And so I did writing and testing and writing and testing that whole week. And by the time the week was over, I had about a 110 pies in my kitchen and in the fridge and freezer, and the majority of the book done. Like, it just was one of those things. And I was like, oh, how how will I ever write another one of these? This has been such a ordeal. But as you get into it and you learn, like, your own process, you it gets easier.Kelly Jaggers [00:11:07]:And you also think about those questions. Like, what do I do with the excess ingredients of this? And what will they do with these leftovers? And could they turn them into something else? And what suggestions do I have for substitutions, maybe for our vegan friends or for people who don't eat these kinds of proteins? Maybe you don't eat shellfish or pork. Like, you know, you think about those things and, like, little tidbits you can include in your recipes to make it better for your audience.Stephanie [00:11:31]:Yeah. And you have a lot of that in the book too. Like, in at each page, there if you have some suggestions, like, here's some variations on ways to use grits. Yep. Here is a tartar sauce that goes with this crispy fried shrimp, like Yep. How to freeze seafood. Like, I like that. I thought it was really thoughtful too.Kelly Jaggers [00:11:50]:Thank you.Stephanie [00:11:51]:What are some of your favorite cookbooks that you find yourself getting inspiration from recently?Kelly Jaggers [00:11:58]:Basically, anything from Nigella Lawson. She is the domestic goddess and basically my favorite food person. I adore Nigella Lawson. I love any of the books that deal with, like, specialty one topic cooking. So I love to read books on, like specifically books on, like, vegan cooking or, like, how to cook with chickpeas or, like, specific culinary areas, like, say, books, like, on Israeli cooking or Russian cooking or, German cooking. I love to learn about different food ways. So, I spent a lot of time studying Asian food culture, and now I'm kind of getting invested in more of, like, my own background. So learning about Germanic, Austrian, a little bit of Northern Italian foodways.Kelly Jaggers [00:12:43]:And then, of course, I love reading cookbooks from my home state of Texas. So I have a number of cookbooks from people who are in the state who are just masters of their crafts. So books on barbecue, books on southern comfort food, books on Tex Mex.Stephanie [00:12:58]:Yeah.Kelly Jaggers [00:12:58]:And then even drilling down books on Austin cuisine, on Dallas cuisine. Like, these books are so interesting to me. So I love to I read them like textbooks. Like, I love to just study them. Right? I could just sit there and read a cookbook like most people read a novel. So yeah.Stephanie [00:13:14]:Same. I just I don't know why I'm even telling you this, but it's kind of a cute story. I was traveling, and a woman contacted me, and she was cleaning out her mom's house. And we do a cookbook swap every year, with my radio show. And she said, I've got all these books, and I know you have the swap. She said, can I bring them to you? I said, yeah. You can bring them to me. Here's my garage code.Stephanie [00:13:32]:Just put them in my garage. And she was like, wait. You're just gonna give me a garage code? I'm like, yeah. Just put the books in there. She goes, I can't believe you're just all she goes, can I do anything else while I'm at your house? Can I bring in the mail? I'm like, sure if you want to. So I've got home from the cabin and the books are in the garage. And I started looking at them and they were real, like, treasures. Like, a lot of old Lutheran church cookbooks.Stephanie [00:13:57]:And there was one cookbook that was Minneapolis Restaurants that I only knew of 3 of the restaurants in the book. So it's gotta be, you know, 75 years old. Yeah. And it was just full of treasures and her notes, and there was a box, a wooden box that has actual recipes written in it by hand.Kelly Jaggers [00:14:17]:Oh my gosh.Stephanie [00:14:18]:And so I'm just like and there's 3 boxes of this person's life, you know? And I just I feel like so honored that this woman gave me the boxes of the books, and I've been kinda paging through them at night, like, reading the recipes and thinking, okay. This has olio and shortening. Can I find a way to do something different with it? And how does that work? But, yeah, I get jazzed by the same things.Kelly Jaggers [00:14:43]:I have my old, I don't wanna date myself too hard, but I did grow I did grow in in the elementary school in the eighties. And, I had a cookbook that our PTA put together for our elementary school, and I still have a copy of that, like, construction paper boundStephanie [00:14:59]:Yes.Kelly Jaggers [00:14:59]:Spiral bound cookbook from the elementary school, and the kids all submitted recipes. And most of them, the parents, obviously,Stephanie [00:15:07]:youKelly Jaggers [00:15:07]:know, helped. But, occasionally, it was a kid who, like, made up a recipe for the cookbook. And I loved to read through the book, and just kind of, like, remember, like, all my friends and the teachers and, like, you you know, all that stuff. It's just it's such a treasure. Like, no one else appreciates it than me, but I love it. It's it's to me, it's priceless.Stephanie [00:15:23]:When you what one of the things I liked about this book too is that you have a lot of baking recipes. People don't think about baking for 1, and you I'm just looking. You have a whole cook book about baking for 1.Kelly Jaggers [00:15:34]:I do. I do. Yeah. My first book that I did in the series was the baking for 1 cookbook. I did go to culinary school for pastry. So my my background is, well, my education is in pastry. That's not to say that I'm not educated on other forms of cooking. I did take a bunch of extra extracurricular cooking classes for, like, American cooking, French cuisine.Kelly Jaggers [00:15:52]:I learned how to make the omelette, the whole nine. But, yeah, I I love baking. Baking is my passion. And so when they, were talking about, like, what books are you interested in? I said, I'd love to do some more baking books. And, like, what about baking for 1? And I'm like, I'm your girl. SoStephanie [00:16:06]:I mean, that's a cake for 1, creme brulee for for 1. These are not easy things to make. I love it.Kelly Jaggers [00:16:11]:Yeah. Scaling them down was a challenge, especially for things, you would think you just cut especially, like, things like cookies and cakes. Oh, you just cut it down by, like, a quarter. You don't. You really have to think about your ratios of fat, how the leavening is gonna work with these ingredients. Do I need to add less liquid, more liquid? It's it's a little bit challenging to scale down baking recipes. So that was a fun one to work on just from, like, my nerdy food science brain that, like, I really enjoyed sitting down and working on that book. That was a goodStephanie [00:16:40]:Yeah. The desserts look exceptional. Also, like beef short rib pot roast for 1. Great. I mean, everybody loves that recipe, but it's makes a huge quantity.Kelly Jaggers [00:16:51]:It does. And short ribs are perfectly portioned. Right? Like, you think of a short rib, generally, the kind you get in the grocery store have the bone on and a big chunk of meat on top, that's that's already portioned for 1 person. So that's a little bit of work, and then the extras can be wrapped up, stuck in the freezer, and you can braise them another day or make more pot roast or whatever you wanna do.Stephanie [00:17:09]:And, lobster mac and cheese for 1. I mean, Paul Lee's.Kelly Jaggers [00:17:14]:Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, if you're gonna have mac and cheese, why not have some too? Right?Stephanie [00:17:19]:Like Like, you're only if you just make it for 1, here's you know, because I'm always obsessed with how much I'm eating. Like, I can't overeat it. Right? I can't eat half the pan because I've only made the portion for 1, so I like that too.Kelly Jaggers [00:17:32]:But, like, you get the satisfaction of eating the whole pan. Yes. It's a shortcut. It is a shortcut. It's a little brain hack too. Like, I get to eat the whole thing, and then you eat the whole thing.Stephanie [00:17:44]:I love Yes. All by myself. Okay. Do you do social media?Kelly Jaggers [00:17:48]:I do. I do. You can find me on Facebook, evil shenanigans. I'm on x. That would be Kelly Jaggers. Instagram, Kelly Jaggers. On, threads, Kelly Jaggers. So you can find me on on all the major socials.Kelly Jaggers [00:18:03]:I I don't TikTok. I I'm on there, but I don't actually do anything on TikTok. So, you you know, it's not not for me, but that's okay. Not everything.Stephanie [00:18:10]:It, but it's it's I don't know. It's it's like I have a love hate relationship with it. When you areKelly Jaggers [00:18:15]:I just doom scroll through to to TikTok all the time.Stephanie [00:18:20]:Yes. Absolutely. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Okay. Hold on one second.Stephanie [00:18:24]:Mhmm. My dog is barking. So I'm just gonna pause one second. Alright. So when you open your, let's say, Instagram Mhmm. And a reel pops up from someone, who do you love to follow and love to, like, watch their stuff?Kelly Jaggers [00:18:39]:So I follow such a wide variety of people. My Instagram is is strictly curated to be food, hockey, and dogs, like my three favorite things in life.Stephanie [00:18:49]:Are you a hockey person? That's so funny because my social media state.Kelly Jaggers [00:18:53]:I I'm a huge hockey fan of the Dallas Stars. I also like the Calgary Flames. I have lots of lots of teams that I like to follow, but I'm a diehard Stars fan. So it wasStephanie [00:19:02]:I gotta be honest. Every time I hear someone say the Dallas Stars, it it still have, like, a pain in my heart because they were the Minnesota North Stars.Kelly Jaggers [00:19:12]:North Stars. That's right.Stephanie [00:19:13]:That's right. Still are, like I don't know. Just in my heart and in my, like, growing up childhood, and I don't know. I'm like, Mike Madonna and just I know. I know. They all come back here too.Kelly Jaggers [00:19:27]:I know. Well, Mike Madonna works for the wild now, so that's exciting for him. But we got it we have a statue down hereStephanie [00:19:33]:in Dallas anyway. He was my neighbor.Kelly Jaggers [00:19:35]:Was he really?Stephanie [00:19:36]:Yeah. He did live in Minnesota. But Mhmm. When he came here as a kid in I think it was probably high school or junior high to play Mhmm. He stayed at our neighbor's house. They, like, kind of helped raise him and knew his parents and actually dated my sister for a hot minute. So Oh, wow. Big fans of his and his wife, and they've done so much good work too.Stephanie [00:19:56]:That's crazy. Well, yeah, he'sKelly Jaggers [00:19:58]:he's he's he's kind of a great guy. We we like him down here tooStephanie [00:20:02]:a lot. So Oh, that's so funny.Kelly Jaggers [00:20:04]:Okay. So, yeah, so reels that I'd wanna see. So anything from, some of my favorite fiction authors. So like Deanna Rayburn, Tess Gerritsen, I love to see reels from the authors I love. I love to see reels from, like, New York Times Food, from Tasty. I love to watch those little quick videos where they put things together. I know it's unrealistic on the timing, and it makes it look a little easier than it is. Yeah.Kelly Jaggers [00:20:27]:Hands and pans. But I'm kind of addicted to watching them. They're so satisfying to watch it, like ingredients to completion. Obviously, I we talked about Nigella Lawson before. I will talk about Nigella Lawson until the end of time. I adore Nigella Lawson. But then, like, all of my friends, you know, people that I've known for years who work in food, I'm just thrilled to see what they're doing and the content they're producing. So bake at 360, my friend, Bridget, or 3 bake at 350.Kelly Jaggers [00:20:53]:I'm sorry. Bridget, she's one of my favorite, like, dessert bloggers. She makes the most beautiful cookies. And so, like, she'll post reels about, like, you know, dessert. She's making cookies. She's decorating. I love to see those kinds of things. Yes.Kelly Jaggers [00:21:06]:So, yeah, like, it it's just basically, like, all of my friends and people who work in food. And then, of course, dogs. We rate dogs is another one. Like, if if there's a cute puppy to be seen, I want to see the puppy. So Yeah.Stephanie [00:21:17]:Yeah. Yeah. I've sort of become obsessed with animals eating.Kelly Jaggers [00:21:22]:Mhmm. Mhmm.Stephanie [00:21:23]:Like Sure. The hamster eating a carrot or Oh.Kelly Jaggers [00:21:26]:The little crunch crunch noises. It's just oh my gosh.Stephanie [00:21:31]:Love it. Absolutely. It's so cute. Yes. And also there's one where there's, like, a monkey that's feeding a rabbit. And I don't know why, but that's what I've become obsessed with.Kelly Jaggers [00:21:43]:Yeah. There's there's one, Instagram account that I like to follow, and it's a person and they have these 2 very wild little beagles And they set the a table up, and they make food for the beagles. And then the beagles jump on the table and eat the food, and he's trying to stop them. And it's it's hilarious. And I know it's all set up, but every time, I I get sucked in and I laugh every single time. SoStephanie [00:22:04]:There's also the one that's like that where it's a pit bull that has hands with gloves, and it's made it. Yeah. Like, the food, but it looks like the pit bull's making it, and he has really funny kind of expressions on his face.Kelly Jaggers [00:22:17]:Yes. Yes. Yes. And see, that that combines 2 loves, the food and the dogs. So Sure.Stephanie [00:22:22]:You know?Kelly Jaggers [00:22:23]:Yeah. No. It's Absolutely.Stephanie [00:22:25]:The theKelly Jaggers [00:22:25]:the stuff you see on there is is pretty wild. But, yeah, IStephanie [00:22:28]:love fun talking with you.Kelly Jaggers [00:22:30]:It's been so nice to talk with you. Thank you for having me.Stephanie [00:22:32]:Yeah. It's the ultimate meal planning for one cook book, and your publisher sent me a couple. So I'm gonna do a giveaway with 1 when I put the podcast together. So I'll give, one away to someone, and it's been lovely to see you. When you get your next book going, give me a shout back. I love talking to cookbook authors and hearing about their process. And, again, I really thought your book was super thoughtful. You did a great job.Kelly Jaggers [00:22:55]:So glad you liked it. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.Stephanie [00:22:58]:I did. Thanks, Kelly. I'll seeKelly Jaggers [00:22:59]:you soon. You. Take care. Bye bye. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit stephaniehansen.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of "Dishing with Stephanie's Dish," we had a delightful conversation with the talented cookbook author Kelly Jaggers. She shared her insights about her latest creation, "The Ultimate Meal Planning for One Cookbook," and her journey as a cookbook writer. Kelly's passion for creating recipes perfectly scaled for one person's enjoyment shines through her work, making her books a treasure trove for solo diners. She has 4 books currently in the “Cooking For One” series including:Join us as we delve into Kelly's culinary background, her inspirations for writing cookbooks, and her love for food, hockey, and dogs. So, grab a cup of your favorite beverage and join us in this engaging conversation with Kelly Jaggers.COOKBOOK GIVEAWAYI have two copies of this cookbook to give away. To be included in the giveaway, send me any comment here, and I will contact the winner via email and mail the book to your home. FINAL TRANSCRIPT:Stephanie [00:00:15]:Hello, everybody, and welcome to dishing with Stephanie's dish, the podcast where we talk to cookbook authors and people generally obsessed with food. Today, we have a cookbook author, and it is Kelly Jaggers. Welcome to the program, Kelly.Kelly Jaggers [00:00:27]:Thank you so much for having me.Stephanie [00:00:29]:Yes. So you wrote something that I find really fascinating. It's called the ultimate meal planning for 1 cookbook, and you previously wrote the ultimate Mediterranean diet cookbook for 1. Mhmm. What got you into, like, cooking for 1 person? Because I did notice that you're now married.Kelly Jaggers [00:00:49]:I am married. So just because I'm married doesn't mean I don't understand the, ins and outs of what people who are solo might need. Yes. I do spend a few days a week at home by myself. My husband works. Sometimes he travels. And on those dates, I'm just cooking for me. I don't have kiddos, just me and the dogs.Kelly Jaggers [00:01:06]:So it was important for me to learn how to scale down recipes so that I could enjoy them just for myself without having excessive leftovers. And that just really parlays well into the book series that I've been working on, because it's kind of a I wouldn't say so niche, but kind of overlooked audience for cookbooks.Stephanie [00:01:23]:For sure.Kelly Jaggers [00:01:23]:Thinking right. They're thinking about families, married couples, people with loads of kids or planning for parties. But what about those people who are, for whatever reason, cooking for themselves because maybe they're single or they have a spouse or an SO or a partner who works multiple days away from home or maybe they're on a special diet from an SO. And so, like, they're planning just for themselves.Stephanie [00:01:44]:Yeah.Kelly Jaggers [00:01:44]:So lots of reasons why you might just be cooking for yourself. So it's not just because you're a single, although you probably maybe you are. That's also fine. Like, I don't judge. Whatever. So, yeah, it was important for me to kind of, kinda fill that gap and to help, to fill out that market a little bit.Stephanie [00:01:58]:I feel uniquely, interested in this topic after just having spent 2 weeks with my mother-in-law who's 92, and she still does all her own cooking. And every time I was gonna make something, she acted sort of horrified at my portions because she's used to cooking for just herself. So she's always really keenly in tune to not cooking too much so she doesn't have to eat the same thing for 5 days.Kelly Jaggers [00:02:25]:Exactly.Stephanie [00:02:26]:Yep. Because leftovers are a problem when you're when you're single.Kelly Jaggers [00:02:30]:I mean, leftovers are great for 1, maybe 2 meals, but, like, five meals of lasagna in a week or 5 meals of, whatever it is that you've made. Yeah. It can get a little get a little depressing. Right? And it makes you not wanna cook, make you wanna reach for a takeout menu, and that's so expensive. So you're wasting food, spending more on maybe delivery or takeout than maybe you've planned for in the budget. So why not think about meals that are scaled for 1 to 2 portions? I think that makes a lot of sense for people who are thinking about their budget, thinking about ways to reduce food waste, which is so important too. Right? Food is so expensive these days. If you go to the grocery store, it's so high.Kelly Jaggers [00:03:09]:I don't wanna be throwing that food away. I'm gonna eat what I bought. So I wanna plan for meals that I can make, just in the portions that I want.Stephanie [00:03:16]:Your book is beautifully done in lots of ways. So Thank you. First of all, the design of itKelly Jaggers [00:03:23]:Yeah. Yeah. I love They did such a wonderful job with it. It's so, so pretty.Stephanie [00:03:29]:It's pretty. It's simple. It's easy to follow. You have pictures for most of the recipes. You also have, like, calorie counts, fat, protein, carbohydrates. So if someone is watching their calories, that's really helpful.Kelly Jaggers [00:03:45]:Yeah. Yeah.Stephanie [00:03:45]:We've got it also broken down into proteins, which we're kind of obsessing these days about if we're getting enough protein. So I loved that. Yeah. I also really liked the size of it and the paper, and it just feels like a manual I can pop in my purse and, you've got shopping lists, meal plans. It's really quite well done.Kelly Jaggers [00:04:08]:Thank you. Thank you. It's, it was a labor of love. I think that the most challenging part of the book was the meal plans is coming up with the 8 weeks of meal plans and the shopping lists because I wanted to make sure that the meal plans included a variety of recipes from the book. Nothing was too, like, Mexican every single night or, like, chicken every single night. I wanted to make sure there's plenty of variety. And to give an example for people who maybe have never sat down to meal plan before to say, like, this is what you can do. These are the kinds of recipes you can plan for.Kelly Jaggers [00:04:37]:This is an idea of what your week might look like, but feel free to plug and play. Right? Like, oh, I'm not such a big fan of this recipe. I'd rather have this. And you can just plug it into the meal plan and make it easy for you to customize and individualize so that as you start this meal planning journey, you have these great tools and you can just kind of utilize the week over week for yourself.Stephanie [00:04:58]:And the prep list too were really thoughtful. I think when you're cooking for because I do cook from 1 a lot, actually, 2. Mhmm. In my food life, because I'm doing recipe development, I'm, you know, usually making recipes for 2 to 6. Yep. But my husband in the summertime lives at our cabin for the most part. So I am cooking for myself a lot. And if I'm not eating recipe leftovers, which usually I end up giving to my neighbors because I don't really wanna eat what I just cooked.Kelly Jaggers [00:05:29]:I don't know why. Completely understand. I'm the same way.Stephanie [00:05:31]:I'm aKelly Jaggers [00:05:31]:first creature. It. Cooked it all day. I don't wanna consume it. I get it.Stephanie [00:05:35]:I photographed it. I'm just sayingKelly Jaggers [00:05:37]:with it all day, and I just don't want it. Yes.Stephanie [00:05:39]:So I'm, like, always running around the neighborhood, like, who needs food?Kelly Jaggers [00:05:43]:Who's hungry? I have I have meals. Please take these foods from me.Stephanie [00:05:46]:Yes. So, like, then I'm just myself and I'm like, oh, well, okay. What am I gonna just make for myself? And I always end up making too much. So then I've got, like, food and I again, I'm very conscientious about food waste too. But so I really enjoyed, the way that the book was put together. How did you get into cookbook writing? Were you a blogger first?Kelly Jaggers [00:06:08]:I was. I was. So, I had a blog. It still exists out there. I'm not updating it, obviously, but it was evil shenanigans.com. The shenanigans are evil because they're good for your taste buds, but maybe not so great for your waistline. And I started working on that blog when I went to culinary school. I was going to culinary school to become a baker.Kelly Jaggers [00:06:26]:I wanted to open my own bakery. I had these really grand plans. And I walked into bakery pastry management, one of my last classes for my degree, and the teacher came in and she's I'll never forget. She said, first thing she said before she even introduced herself was 90% of bakeries fail in the 1st year. It's about a $1,000,000 total investment. And I was like, and with that, I'm out. I am risk averse. I I know how hard it is to earn my money, and I was not interested in that.Kelly Jaggers [00:06:50]:So now what do I do with this education I've acquired? I don't wanna work in restaurants. I didn't wanna have that kind of, like, you know, chef y lifestyle that that's not me.Stephanie [00:06:59]:The beer doesn't appeal to you?Kelly Jaggers [00:07:01]:No. No. I am a gentle soul. Soul. I don't think I could handle it. I would cry every day.Stephanie [00:07:06]:Yep.Kelly Jaggers [00:07:07]:So I I started writing a blog during my culinary school journey, and so I just kinda focused in on that for a while, trying to figure out, like, what am I gonna do? And about a year into working on the blog, I received an email from a publisher asking if I was interested in working on a book on pies. And I looked around and said, are you sure you mean me? And they did. And so I wrote my very first book, which was the Everything Pie Cookbook. And sinceStephanie [00:07:29]:then had that. Yeah.Kelly Jaggers [00:07:31]:Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And so since then, I've written, a number of books for my publisher. I write roughly 1 a year right now. So I do the books and also the photography as well. So, on top of the books I write and shoot, I also shoot photography for other people's cook books.Kelly Jaggers [00:07:46]:So, so it's been a lot of fun. Yeah. Just like a nice little transition from, like, culinary school, I wanna be a baker, to now I write cookbooks and study food for a living, and it's the best, and I love it.Stephanie [00:07:57]:And you're not doing or you're not updating your blog at the same time, so your whole focus is really on your cookbook each year.Kelly Jaggers [00:08:04]:Yeah. Yeah. It it it's a labor of love. It's one of those things that, you've, I think, written a cookbook, so I think you understand. And developing recipes too. It's one of those things where I want them to be right. I want the recipes to work. So I do spend a lot of time working on the recipes, thinking about ingredients, studying what's trending, but also thinking about what will still taste good in 10 years.Kelly Jaggers [00:08:25]:So I want things to be up to date and current, but I don't want them to be so up to date that people are like, oh, we're so over this. You know?Stephanie [00:08:31]:Yeah.Kelly Jaggers [00:08:32]:So I spend a lot of time thinking about those things. So, yeah, that's that's what I do. I do photography. I do the cookbook writing, and then I also do, a little bit of light personal chef and catering work in town.Stephanie [00:08:42]:So Where do you live?Kelly Jaggers [00:08:44]:I live in the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex.Stephanie [00:08:46]:Oh, nice. I just, I, I was just doing a cooking demonstration yesterday from 1 from my cookbook, and there's an recipe in there for king ranch chicken that was my mother in law's from Houston. And, you know, I know in Texas, like, everybody knows king ranch chicken is like our wild rice soup. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Was just so impressed with this King Ranch chicken. And I was like, people, I did not invent this thing.Stephanie [00:09:12]:You know? This has been being made in Texas for some time.Kelly Jaggers [00:09:15]:It's called the king ranch. Yeah. It's from the king ranch, and it's, yeah. It's very, very famous in the state. We I think everyone grew up eating it that I knew.Stephanie [00:09:24]:Yeah. And it is delicious. So you can VeryKelly Jaggers [00:09:26]:tasty. Yeah. No. It's it's for that.Stephanie [00:09:28]:It's oneKelly Jaggers [00:09:28]:of those things you kinda can't go wrong with.Stephanie [00:09:30]:So And, you know, they were asking me all these intimate questions about, like, the tortillas and what kind and how long they last. And I just I thought, oh, this is when you write a cookbook, you're writing it in your own vacuum, essentially. And these are the kinds of questions that cooks have that I wasn't thinking about when I wrote the recipe. Yeah. So I'll get better on the second book about thinking about some of that. But I think with each book, you get better. Don't you think?Kelly Jaggers [00:09:55]:Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's it's, the first book's a challenge. You you kinda don't I hate to say you don't know what you're doing, but, like, you write recipes. You know how to develop recipes. But have you written a book before? No. No. I ended up writing my first book over the course of basically a week.Kelly Jaggers [00:10:11]:We had a snowstorm in Dallas that year, and it basically shut the entire city down. All the roads were frozen over. We were actually hosting the Super Bowl that year too, so it was kind of like this thing where I was watching the news where the they were like, can we even have it? It's all snowed in, and I'm like, it'sStephanie [00:10:26]:a quarterKelly Jaggers [00:10:27]:of an inch of snow. It's so small. Yeah.Stephanie [00:10:29]:And we were laughing at all of you. Just like, oh my god. What is going on in Dallas?Kelly Jaggers [00:10:34]:Well, we don't have the infrastructure in place, and, also, we can't we drive aggressively. Anyway, so I ended up getting stuck at home for week. And I'm like, well, I guess I'll just work on the book. And so I did writing and testing and writing and testing that whole week. And by the time the week was over, I had about a 110 pies in my kitchen and in the fridge and freezer, and the majority of the book done. Like, it just was one of those things. And I was like, oh, how how will I ever write another one of these? This has been such a ordeal. But as you get into it and you learn, like, your own process, you it gets easier.Kelly Jaggers [00:11:07]:And you also think about those questions. Like, what do I do with the excess ingredients of this? And what will they do with these leftovers? And could they turn them into something else? And what suggestions do I have for substitutions, maybe for our vegan friends or for people who don't eat these kinds of proteins? Maybe you don't eat shellfish or pork. Like, you know, you think about those things and, like, little tidbits you can include in your recipes to make it better for your audience.Stephanie [00:11:31]:Yeah. And you have a lot of that in the book too. Like, in at each page, there if you have some suggestions, like, here's some variations on ways to use grits. Yep. Here is a tartar sauce that goes with this crispy fried shrimp, like Yep. How to freeze seafood. Like, I like that. I thought it was really thoughtful too.Kelly Jaggers [00:11:50]:Thank you.Stephanie [00:11:51]:What are some of your favorite cookbooks that you find yourself getting inspiration from recently?Kelly Jaggers [00:11:58]:Basically, anything from Nigella Lawson. She is the domestic goddess and basically my favorite food person. I adore Nigella Lawson. I love any of the books that deal with, like, specialty one topic cooking. So I love to read books on, like specifically books on, like, vegan cooking or, like, how to cook with chickpeas or, like, specific culinary areas, like, say, books, like, on Israeli cooking or Russian cooking or, German cooking. I love to learn about different food ways. So, I spent a lot of time studying Asian food culture, and now I'm kind of getting invested in more of, like, my own background. So learning about Germanic, Austrian, a little bit of Northern Italian foodways.Kelly Jaggers [00:12:43]:And then, of course, I love reading cookbooks from my home state of Texas. So I have a number of cookbooks from people who are in the state who are just masters of their crafts. So books on barbecue, books on southern comfort food, books on Tex Mex.Stephanie [00:12:58]:Yeah.Kelly Jaggers [00:12:58]:And then even drilling down books on Austin cuisine, on Dallas cuisine. Like, these books are so interesting to me. So I love to I read them like textbooks. Like, I love to just study them. Right? I could just sit there and read a cookbook like most people read a novel. So yeah.Stephanie [00:13:14]:Same. I just I don't know why I'm even telling you this, but it's kind of a cute story. I was traveling, and a woman contacted me, and she was cleaning out her mom's house. And we do a cookbook swap every year, with my radio show. And she said, I've got all these books, and I know you have the swap. She said, can I bring them to you? I said, yeah. You can bring them to me. Here's my garage code.Stephanie [00:13:32]:Just put them in my garage. And she was like, wait. You're just gonna give me a garage code? I'm like, yeah. Just put the books in there. She goes, I can't believe you're just all she goes, can I do anything else while I'm at your house? Can I bring in the mail? I'm like, sure if you want to. So I've got home from the cabin and the books are in the garage. And I started looking at them and they were real, like, treasures. Like, a lot of old Lutheran church cookbooks.Stephanie [00:13:57]:And there was one cookbook that was Minneapolis Restaurants that I only knew of 3 of the restaurants in the book. So it's gotta be, you know, 75 years old. Yeah. And it was just full of treasures and her notes, and there was a box, a wooden box that has actual recipes written in it by hand.Kelly Jaggers [00:14:17]:Oh my gosh.Stephanie [00:14:18]:And so I'm just like and there's 3 boxes of this person's life, you know? And I just I feel like so honored that this woman gave me the boxes of the books, and I've been kinda paging through them at night, like, reading the recipes and thinking, okay. This has olio and shortening. Can I find a way to do something different with it? And how does that work? But, yeah, I get jazzed by the same things.Kelly Jaggers [00:14:43]:I have my old, I don't wanna date myself too hard, but I did grow I did grow in in the elementary school in the eighties. And, I had a cookbook that our PTA put together for our elementary school, and I still have a copy of that, like, construction paper boundStephanie [00:14:59]:Yes.Kelly Jaggers [00:14:59]:Spiral bound cookbook from the elementary school, and the kids all submitted recipes. And most of them, the parents, obviously,Stephanie [00:15:07]:youKelly Jaggers [00:15:07]:know, helped. But, occasionally, it was a kid who, like, made up a recipe for the cookbook. And I loved to read through the book, and just kind of, like, remember, like, all my friends and the teachers and, like, you you know, all that stuff. It's just it's such a treasure. Like, no one else appreciates it than me, but I love it. It's it's to me, it's priceless.Stephanie [00:15:23]:When you what one of the things I liked about this book too is that you have a lot of baking recipes. People don't think about baking for 1, and you I'm just looking. You have a whole cook book about baking for 1.Kelly Jaggers [00:15:34]:I do. I do. Yeah. My first book that I did in the series was the baking for 1 cookbook. I did go to culinary school for pastry. So my my background is, well, my education is in pastry. That's not to say that I'm not educated on other forms of cooking. I did take a bunch of extra extracurricular cooking classes for, like, American cooking, French cuisine.Kelly Jaggers [00:15:52]:I learned how to make the omelette, the whole nine. But, yeah, I I love baking. Baking is my passion. And so when they, were talking about, like, what books are you interested in? I said, I'd love to do some more baking books. And, like, what about baking for 1? And I'm like, I'm your girl. SoStephanie [00:16:06]:I mean, that's a cake for 1, creme brulee for for 1. These are not easy things to make. I love it.Kelly Jaggers [00:16:11]:Yeah. Scaling them down was a challenge, especially for things, you would think you just cut especially, like, things like cookies and cakes. Oh, you just cut it down by, like, a quarter. You don't. You really have to think about your ratios of fat, how the leavening is gonna work with these ingredients. Do I need to add less liquid, more liquid? It's it's a little bit challenging to scale down baking recipes. So that was a fun one to work on just from, like, my nerdy food science brain that, like, I really enjoyed sitting down and working on that book. That was a goodStephanie [00:16:40]:Yeah. The desserts look exceptional. Also, like beef short rib pot roast for 1. Great. I mean, everybody loves that recipe, but it's makes a huge quantity.Kelly Jaggers [00:16:51]:It does. And short ribs are perfectly portioned. Right? Like, you think of a short rib, generally, the kind you get in the grocery store have the bone on and a big chunk of meat on top, that's that's already portioned for 1 person. So that's a little bit of work, and then the extras can be wrapped up, stuck in the freezer, and you can braise them another day or make more pot roast or whatever you wanna do.Stephanie [00:17:09]:And, lobster mac and cheese for 1. I mean, Paul Lee's.Kelly Jaggers [00:17:14]:Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, if you're gonna have mac and cheese, why not have some too? Right?Stephanie [00:17:19]:Like Like, you're only if you just make it for 1, here's you know, because I'm always obsessed with how much I'm eating. Like, I can't overeat it. Right? I can't eat half the pan because I've only made the portion for 1, so I like that too.Kelly Jaggers [00:17:32]:But, like, you get the satisfaction of eating the whole pan. Yes. It's a shortcut. It is a shortcut. It's a little brain hack too. Like, I get to eat the whole thing, and then you eat the whole thing.Stephanie [00:17:44]:I love Yes. All by myself. Okay. Do you do social media?Kelly Jaggers [00:17:48]:I do. I do. You can find me on Facebook, evil shenanigans. I'm on x. That would be Kelly Jaggers. Instagram, Kelly Jaggers. On, threads, Kelly Jaggers. So you can find me on on all the major socials.Kelly Jaggers [00:18:03]:I I don't TikTok. I I'm on there, but I don't actually do anything on TikTok. So, you you know, it's not not for me, but that's okay. Not everything.Stephanie [00:18:10]:It, but it's it's I don't know. It's it's like I have a love hate relationship with it. When you areKelly Jaggers [00:18:15]:I just doom scroll through to to TikTok all the time.Stephanie [00:18:20]:Yes. Absolutely. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Okay. Hold on one second.Stephanie [00:18:24]:Mhmm. My dog is barking. So I'm just gonna pause one second. Alright. So when you open your, let's say, Instagram Mhmm. And a reel pops up from someone, who do you love to follow and love to, like, watch their stuff?Kelly Jaggers [00:18:39]:So I follow such a wide variety of people. My Instagram is is strictly curated to be food, hockey, and dogs, like my three favorite things in life.Stephanie [00:18:49]:Are you a hockey person? That's so funny because my social media state.Kelly Jaggers [00:18:53]:I I'm a huge hockey fan of the Dallas Stars. I also like the Calgary Flames. I have lots of lots of teams that I like to follow, but I'm a diehard Stars fan. So it wasStephanie [00:19:02]:I gotta be honest. Every time I hear someone say the Dallas Stars, it it still have, like, a pain in my heart because they were the Minnesota North Stars.Kelly Jaggers [00:19:12]:North Stars. That's right.Stephanie [00:19:13]:That's right. Still are, like I don't know. Just in my heart and in my, like, growing up childhood, and I don't know. I'm like, Mike Madonna and just I know. I know. They all come back here too.Kelly Jaggers [00:19:27]:I know. Well, Mike Madonna works for the wild now, so that's exciting for him. But we got it we have a statue down hereStephanie [00:19:33]:in Dallas anyway. He was my neighbor.Kelly Jaggers [00:19:35]:Was he really?Stephanie [00:19:36]:Yeah. He did live in Minnesota. But Mhmm. When he came here as a kid in I think it was probably high school or junior high to play Mhmm. He stayed at our neighbor's house. They, like, kind of helped raise him and knew his parents and actually dated my sister for a hot minute. So Oh, wow. Big fans of his and his wife, and they've done so much good work too.Stephanie [00:19:56]:That's crazy. Well, yeah, he'sKelly Jaggers [00:19:58]:he's he's he's kind of a great guy. We we like him down here tooStephanie [00:20:02]:a lot. So Oh, that's so funny.Kelly Jaggers [00:20:04]:Okay. So, yeah, so reels that I'd wanna see. So anything from, some of my favorite fiction authors. So like Deanna Rayburn, Tess Gerritsen, I love to see reels from the authors I love. I love to see reels from, like, New York Times Food, from Tasty. I love to watch those little quick videos where they put things together. I know it's unrealistic on the timing, and it makes it look a little easier than it is. Yeah.Kelly Jaggers [00:20:27]:Hands and pans. But I'm kind of addicted to watching them. They're so satisfying to watch it, like ingredients to completion. Obviously, I we talked about Nigella Lawson before. I will talk about Nigella Lawson until the end of time. I adore Nigella Lawson. But then, like, all of my friends, you know, people that I've known for years who work in food, I'm just thrilled to see what they're doing and the content they're producing. So bake at 360, my friend, Bridget, or 3 bake at 350.Kelly Jaggers [00:20:53]:I'm sorry. Bridget, she's one of my favorite, like, dessert bloggers. She makes the most beautiful cookies. And so, like, she'll post reels about, like, you know, dessert. She's making cookies. She's decorating. I love to see those kinds of things. Yes.Kelly Jaggers [00:21:06]:So, yeah, like, it it's just basically, like, all of my friends and people who work in food. And then, of course, dogs. We rate dogs is another one. Like, if if there's a cute puppy to be seen, I want to see the puppy. So Yeah.Stephanie [00:21:17]:Yeah. Yeah. I've sort of become obsessed with animals eating.Kelly Jaggers [00:21:22]:Mhmm. Mhmm.Stephanie [00:21:23]:Like Sure. The hamster eating a carrot or Oh.Kelly Jaggers [00:21:26]:The little crunch crunch noises. It's just oh my gosh.Stephanie [00:21:31]:Love it. Absolutely. It's so cute. Yes. And also there's one where there's, like, a monkey that's feeding a rabbit. And I don't know why, but that's what I've become obsessed with.Kelly Jaggers [00:21:43]:Yeah. There's there's one, Instagram account that I like to follow, and it's a person and they have these 2 very wild little beagles And they set the a table up, and they make food for the beagles. And then the beagles jump on the table and eat the food, and he's trying to stop them. And it's it's hilarious. And I know it's all set up, but every time, I I get sucked in and I laugh every single time. SoStephanie [00:22:04]:There's also the one that's like that where it's a pit bull that has hands with gloves, and it's made it. Yeah. Like, the food, but it looks like the pit bull's making it, and he has really funny kind of expressions on his face.Kelly Jaggers [00:22:17]:Yes. Yes. Yes. And see, that that combines 2 loves, the food and the dogs. So Sure.Stephanie [00:22:22]:You know?Kelly Jaggers [00:22:23]:Yeah. No. It's Absolutely.Stephanie [00:22:25]:The theKelly Jaggers [00:22:25]:the stuff you see on there is is pretty wild. But, yeah, IStephanie [00:22:28]:love fun talking with you.Kelly Jaggers [00:22:30]:It's been so nice to talk with you. Thank you for having me.Stephanie [00:22:32]:Yeah. It's the ultimate meal planning for one cook book, and your publisher sent me a couple. So I'm gonna do a giveaway with 1 when I put the podcast together. So I'll give, one away to someone, and it's been lovely to see you. When you get your next book going, give me a shout back. I love talking to cookbook authors and hearing about their process. And, again, I really thought your book was super thoughtful. You did a great job.Kelly Jaggers [00:22:55]:So glad you liked it. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.Stephanie [00:22:58]:I did. Thanks, Kelly. I'll seeKelly Jaggers [00:22:59]:you soon. You. Take care. Bye bye. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit stephaniehansen.substack.com/subscribe

This week on the show jD welcomes Vish from his own Kreative Kontrol, if you haven't checked it out get after it!Vish discusses song 18 and shares his Pavement origin story.Transcript:Track 1:[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.Track 2:[0:02] This week we're going deep on Box Elder. How are you feeling about song number 19, Kyra, from the COWI? I fucking love Box Elder so much. It's a great song. It's one of the earlier Pavement songs. I think it's a very early Pavement song, which is cool. And it's one that really holds up.Track 1:[0:25] I think, too. you. Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.Track 3:[0:34] Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballads. I then tabulated the results using an abacus, a wet towel, and some scrawny kid from 10th grade gym class. How will your favorite songs fare in the rankings? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week I'm joined by Pavement superfan Vish from Creative Control with Vish Khanna. Dude, thanks for taking some time to do this. It means a lot. How the hell are you doing? I'm well, JD. Thanks for having me on your show. How are you doing? I'm great today. It's a little overcast here, but it's about five degrees so i'm gonna go for a walk later and uh.Track 3:[1:24] And that's a, that's, those are good times for me. Very nice. That's good. Going outside. Can't beat it. Yeah. No, you can't at all. Well, let's not beat around the bush, speaking of beat it, and get right into your Pavement Origins story.Track 3:[1:38] Talk to me about that, Vish. Well, I was trying to, you know, I knew I was coming on your show, so I figured I should try to ponder this, you know, and I, I was trying to remember. Remember, I think I first came upon the band when I read about them in Spin Magazine, like, I think before Crooked Rain came out. And I don't know what it was about that piece. This is right around the time I started getting to go to record stores. You know, I'm, what would I have been then? I would have been 15, 16. Some of us were driving so we could leave Cambridge, Ontario, where I'm from, and we could go to Kitchener and Waterloo and Toronto. They had the cooler record stores those were like uh college university towns so then we started going to record stores and then you start talking to the record store people and they tell you what they like and you respect them because they're your surrogate parents so somebody somebody somewhere along the line told me about pavement i i'm pretty sure it was the spin magazine article that i was i started devouring more and more music journalism and i think it was that so i remember owning uh slanted and enchanted and also uh the record store had the trigger cut single so i think i bought both things and i'm fairly certain about both things and uh i will say that that first single got me completely obsessed with their singles um because i think they're.Track 3:[3:07] I don't know, they're one of the greatest treasure troves of any band I can think of. I know you've probably talked about this with others, but I really value Pavement B-Sides. Like, I wasn't that surprised. I mean, I was surprised that Harness Your Hopes went kind of bonkers recently, but like, I'm not surprised. Like, Pavement B-Sides, I know some of them better than I know the album songs, to be honest with you. I just became so obsessed with how great, like, the the quality of their B-sides really spoke to me. And then, yeah, that's one of the, and then I feel like that was a gateway into like, what is Silver Jews? Like, why is this, what is Silver Jews in the pavement section? What is it? Oh, it's a, it's a project. Oh, there's Bob and Steve on the back of the album covers. So they're in this, I guess. And so, yeah, the B-side alternate pavement universe if you will really spoke to me and still does uh i find myself uh kind of you know mumbling song lyrics and and tunes and melodies from you know humming them from from all the b-side so yeah i i would i would position myself that way as someone who i get a little obsessive so it wasn't just the album uh the albums it was like i want to get all the singles so i owned every single.Track 3:[4:24] On mostly on compact disc when i was coming up of age and now i've got them all on actually you know what i ordered i ordered that thing that you ordered the box that i ordered the singles box that i have a bunch of them but i was like what the hell i'm gonna do it so the book looks good yeah everything about it looks good i love pavement so uh i just thought i would get that too and uh yeah i think that's pretty much it that's where i discovered them and then of course they blew up uh you know they're one of those bands that all your cool uh heroes were talking talking about before you even heard them you know so you'd read a interview with somebody you liked and they'd mention pavements you're like what is this pavement so really have a time and place for me word of mouth and then actually digging in i have still a sense memory of playing slanted and enchanted and hearing summer babe and you're just like what the hell so yeah i'd say that's that that that's that's got to be it i think that's it and you got to be there for the release of watery then did you as somebody who was like sort of ep and single obsessed did you pick that up when it came out i did i did pick it up i don't know if i got it right when it came out i can't say that for sure because i feel like i still came to them a little bit later um because i'm sure they were that article was 93 like i don't think it was about slanted it was just mentioned so but i got it yeah and as you may have heard me talk about it's yeah it's my it's like my favorite thing, really, in some ways. I love, and yeah, I miss Gary Young.Track 3:[5:51] I never got to meet or talk to Gary Young, but yeah, the drumming as a drummer as well, as a budding drummer, like hearing Gary's playing, that had a huge influence on me too. So yeah, that era. Put your finger on what it is, isn't it?Track 3:[6:06] Like, what it is about Gary's drumming. I love Westy. I love him. He's a great guy, and he's a great drummer. But there's something about Gary. There's something about the looseness and the showmanship of people like Gary Young. I would say here in Canada, we have Mark Gaudette, who was in Eric's trip, and his drumming, too. Like, it's punk rock, but it's a bit more technical. And it's precise, but it's loose. And it just has it. He's making an instrument. you know they have their own voice i suppose as drummers they have their own like you hear it and you're like oh that's that's that's either gary or as i mentioned mark for two examples uh or it's someone copying them you know it's someone someone kind of ripping them off so i certainly was of this learning how to play the instrument and getting into some really amazing drummers at the time uh just because i didn't take drum lessons i would just listen to things or go see bands and And certain people and their drumming had a huge impact on me. And certainly early pavement drumming, you know, I think it's an underrated facet of that band. Did you get a chance to see the Gary Dock?Track 3:[7:18] No, you know what? I haven't seen that doc. That's a good call. I've been rather swamped of late and I need to do that. Have you seen it? Yeah, it's really, it's, it's pretty fabulous. Yeah, I can imagine. You're right. I should, I don't know. I'm at a thing where I got to do so much and I process so much information and music and I can't keep up with everything. So yeah, I saw it come through and I was like, yeah, I will watch that eventually. And then before you know it, I don't think I'm alone in this where there's just so much stuff to consume, but yeah, good Good call. Good call. I'll try to track it down on, I don't know if it's on a thing, a service or whatever, a streaming service, but I'll try and watch that. Yeah, I think it is because I don't know how I would have seen it. I forgot. Yeah. Um, when, when did you finally get to, uh, see them live or did you see them live in the original sort of run? I saw them for the first time in Barrie, Ontario at Lollapalooza in 1995. This was the. Wow. Lollapalooza curated by Sonic Youth.Track 3:[8:18] So also on the bill was, it was supposed to be Sinead, or sorry, it was supposed, yeah, it was supposed to be Sinead O'Connor, but I think I attended the first show that she couldn't play because she was pregnant. And so Elastica filled in, but the day was like a mighty, mighty Boston's first time I got to see the Jesus lizard. Blizzard, uh, uh, Pavement obviously played during the day, uh, Hole played. Beck was on the lineup too, wasn't he? Yeah, I saw Beck play two sets, one on the main stage, uh, this was just ahead, uh, ahead of Odile coming up, and, um, he also did a side stage, uh, performance where I actually spoke to him, he, he came down and, uh, signed autographs, so he signed, I don't know where it is but he signed my Lollapalooza ticket stub and I asked him I actually I think I, I tripped him out a little because I'd heard that he was going to be collaborating with a Toronto musician. And when I mentioned it, he was like, oh, yeah, we have been talking about that. Like he was I kind of nardwired him.Track 3:[9:23] I didn't mean it was just a rumor. I just said it. And he was like, oh, yeah, we were talking about that. So anyway. Yeah. So, yeah. And the Far Side played and Moby played and all sorts of amazing eclectic. Yeah. Yeah, Cypress Hill was one of the headliners. Bob Nastanovich, when he was on my show, I did a little documentary about Bright in the Corners. And he talked extensively about their experiences with some of the artists and their experiences playing Lollapalooza. And Bob's amazing innovation of suggesting that instead of getting a bus, they would each get minivans. He got a great deal in some rental minivans and that way they could play and then just drive ahead to the show and not worry about the gear and all that stuff and and and they could kind of travel at their leisure and uh yeah anyway so Lollapalooza 95 is the first show then I saw them at the Phoenix in Toronto for the Bright in the Corners tour and then I saw them play uh you remember the cool house and the, sorry, for those wondering in Toronto.Track 3:[10:33] There was a venue and it had two rooms. It was called the Warehouse. And then beside it was something called the Government, a smaller room. And then the Warehouse became, it was like the RPM Warehouse or something like that. That's right. And then it changed names. It was the Cool House, but I think the Government was still there. So for Terror Twilight, as I recall, Pavement played the Government. So the smaller room on that tour. So I saw them there. And then I saw them on Toronto Island on the first reunion tour with the Broken Social scene.Track 3:[11:08] And I think that's the last time I was invited or I was supposed to go see them in Austin, Texas. And Bob hooked me up. And I think I might have even been able to attend the Austin City Limits taping. But unfortunately, I couldn't make it at the last minute. So that was a bit of a bummer. But I regret it. But, you know, it was weird, still weird pandemic times then. And I, I think there was also other stuff going on. So I didn't get to see them on this current reunion, but it still seems to be going as we're speaking. So who knows?Track 3:[11:42] Maybe I can see them somehow. now yeah yeah and we are recording this in early april so yeah there's we're not uh that's not a scoop people just in case you're listening to this in october and you're like oh christ they're coming back um they may they very may well be i just edited the bob episode and you know i sort of teased him because he's like we're done after south america and i was like come on come on yeah i'll believe you're done when i when when you're done yeah but um enough about me back to you uh i'm curious about the lola performance like so you got to see them in a government isn't intimate but it's nice um and then you got to see them in um lollapalooza in front of a big crowd what do you think of the the festival version of pavement well i mean obviously it's well documented that they didn't have the best time on that tour on some level uh in slow century there's obviously the the fracas uh you know uh where people are throwing mud at them and all sorts of a rock at steven actually uh you know i i was a kid i mean that was sensory overload i i was just going to how old was I? So 95 I was had I even turned.Track 3:[13:08] Yeah, I was not even, what was I, seven, 16 or something like that? I don't know. I was not an old, I was young. You were 76? No, wait a minute. Yeah, I was 17. So I was born, no, I was born in 77. So I hadn't yet turned 18. So I was 17. And yeah, it was just, that was a bonkers year, to be honest with you. That summer, I went to everything. I went to so many festivals.Track 3:[13:31] For all my bellyaching about my parents not letting me do stuff, they let me do a lot of stuff that summer so uh yeah i don't i think i was just overwhelmed by how many people were surrounding me and and and i got up as close as i could for pavement um and we got up really close like seeing the jesus lizard was a bit i love the jesus lizard already at that point i just love them and to see them was like they were larger than life and you know yeah for those who've never seen them or footage of them at that point, Yao would come into the crowd, you know, he would leap off the stage and crowd surf and all that kind of stuff and sing while he was doing it. So it was very immersive. And then Pavement, relatively the opposite, you know, they're on stage and the songs are great and they played well, as I recall. But on some level, I remember just making a point of getting up as close as possible and trying not to, at the same time, you know, be conscious of not bothering people as you move your way up, you know, because I was kind of annoyed at everyone running around and pushing their way forward and all that stuff. So, uh... Never made sense to me. Yeah, it just... That's my main memory of just, like, trying to... I was probably... For the Jesus Lizard and Pavement, I was probably... That was the closest I was probably, uh, to the stage. And, uh... And then otherwise, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I have...Track 3:[14:57] I have a real sense memory of the Phoenix show for Bright in the Corners for a few reasons. And I've talked about them with Bob, at least.Track 3:[15:05] Bob did an interpolation of a Cool Keith song, which I just, I was like, oh, I didn't know people knew about Cool Keith. Like I had only started listening to Cool Keith at that time. And he did. I have no clue. blue cool keith is a a really uh innovative uh underground hip-hop superstar he was in a group called ultra magnetic mcs and then he went solo as dr octagon and as cool keith has all these pseudonyms and uh to be precise uh and oh yeah black elvis like he had all these cool names so to be precise i believe as i recall bob was quoting dr the dr octagon project and he just did it in the middle of a song and then also the other thing that occurred to me and it's sort of relevant to the song today is during uh stereo when steven malcolm is saying the lines about getty lee and his voice being so high he shot his voice up super high like a comically high effect how did it get so like just pitch perfect super high i think it's i think it's documented in a much music interview that they did that day or whatever, like while they were in town. And then obviously afterwards, they interspersed some live footage of the band playing.Track 3:[16:26] And Stephen singing, you know, on this song that we're here to talk about today is so remarkable to me. And I remember that I had this sense memory of him singing that and thinking it was very amusing. I thought it was more amusing than impressive at the time. but over over time as i um have come to value steven's singing voice and his range and his ability, And just instincts as a singer, I view it as more impressive now than, I still think it's funny because I think he's got a comical element to his choices and certainly live anything can happen, but they were just, I think that Bright in the Corner show is the, it's certainly one of the best shows I've ever seen. So I would also say it's one of the, if not the, it was the best time I saw Pavement probably. Oh, that's a great venue. That's what I, that's, I think the Phoenix is phenomenal. I don't want to discount the reunion show I saw because I think with age and time away from each other, they actually have, I don't know, I don't know how many reunion shows you've seen, but often I find that these bands that, particularly for us, you know, the bands around in the 90s, when they come back, they're better. Yeah. They seem more at ease with themselves as people and as players.Track 3:[17:45] And so the absence, I don't know what it is. They just seem more relaxed. And I think when you're more relaxed, you play better. I think 20-something angst, we'll call it. I think if you're not relaxed with each other, you don't play as well. You're just a little uptight. And then as you sort of resign yourself to, well, not resign yourself, but as you sort of get, yeah, you let go of things. I guess that is a way of putting it. You kind of let go of any little grudges and you don't have that angst, whether it's your own or whether it's about yourself or whether it's interpersonal. And I think you just play better. So when I saw the Jesus Lizard on the reunion tour, having seen them several times in the 90s, I just was like, I think they're better. You know, they might be better. better and pavement as i recall from the toronto island show it felt good they played so well you know together um but up until that point yeah i would say that bright in the corners show i saw at.Track 3:[18:46] The phoenix in toronto was just like they were just on fire it was brilliant so yeah cool yeah well before we get into song number 18 i gotta ask you as one of the only people i know that has interviewed Mark Eibold, the reclusive Mark Eibold, how the hell did you do it? And that interview, by the way, was phenomenal. It was great.Track 3:[19:09] Well, that's very kind of you to say. I have to draw back on my memory for this. So the occasion was the Terror Twilight reissue from a year or two or a couple of years ago, whenever it was. Yeah, who knows? And like you, I think my social entry point into this band is Bob Mstanovich.Track 3:[19:32] Absolutely. So Bob is, uh, I've gone on record saying this to others. I think I said it maybe to him during our terror twilight discussion. Bob is the greatest podcast guest of all time. You don't even have to ask him a question and he starts. He's so funny and he's so frank and he says things that I surprised he might say. I love him so much and he's been very kind to me over the years as well. I first spoke with Bob, uh around the time of that reunion uh tour um uh and so what was that 2009 10 thank you very much yeah sorry i think the jesus lizard was 2009 so yeah i spoke to bob around that period and then we've maintained contact basically ever since that was for my college radio show actually and then so that was here in toronto yes that's right yeah well i lived when i was living in ontario at at the time. Um, I had a college radio show and would play some pavement and Bob was a guest on that show. And he's, and I probably wrote a magazine article for exclaim magazine as well. That's what I do and used to do more often. Anyway. Um.Track 3:[20:43] Yeah. So the Tara Twilight thing came about by this point, Bob and I had, he'd been on my podcast a few times. And so I just, I'm sure I went through the proper channels to get, try to figure out the interview and get the music and the, and you know, all the assets and all that. But Bob, I think I was like, Bob, like, can we get everyone? Let's just get everyone on the show. Probably like you have done, like you just, you know, you're, you're trying to do this now. You're trying to talk to as many of the members as you possibly can. Absolutely. And in the loop. So, yeah, you know, I'm emailing Stephen and I think I texted Stephen because, you know, he wasn't responding.Track 3:[21:22] And so we sort of landed on Westy and Bob and Mark and then Jesper, who was involved in the reissue for Matador, was going to take part. And then at the day of, Mark couldn't do it. He was in transit. He couldn't join us for the group call. But yeah, Bob connected us over email, I believe, and maybe text, I don't recall. And so Mark and I, Mark felt, I think, kind of badly that he couldn't do it, like that he said he would do it and that he didn't end up doing it. And uh i i assume bob vouched for me you know um and so that was kind of it uh really we corresponded uh he felt badly that he couldn't make the group call we arranged a time we had a good talk you heard it uh and then i believe i put it out the right after i had put out that that group call uh so back to back it was like pavement week on my show for terror twilight light. Um, so, uh, yeah, I don't, can't recall cause I do so many of these, uh.Track 3:[22:37] Exactly what mark and i talked about i think we talked about some of his, radio listening habits you did yes he still uses a radio yeah you might actually have a better perspective on it than me at this point because i just don't remember uh you know i jd i'm sure you're familiar with this you do so many of them uh interviews uh episodes you're just like oh yeah, i forgot i had so and so on the show what the hell did we talk about again i that happens to me all the time when i edit i'll be listening and i'll be like it sounds like a conversation between somebody who doubles my voice and my guests because i don't recall virtually anything about what we talked about well i remember realizing it was um a real kind of rarity for mark to do such a thing i think at the time um a sonic youth uh archival compilation had had just come out that mark appeared on so there's just a fair amount to talk about it was a lot of memory jogging unfortunately for him like you know trying to remember the terror twilight sessions trying to remember playing with sonic youth like all about a decade out from doing it you know or more a decade or more 20 years um so uh yeah i i he was very lovely and uh and forthcoming and um.Track 3:[23:59] I really appreciate it. I think I've spoken to everyone but Gary, I suppose. I never got a chance to speak to Gary Young. But in terms of the, I guess, whatever, core or original lineup, yeah, I've talked to all of them at some points in my life. And I hope to talk to them again.Track 3:[24:20] Yeah, I do adore them. So it's, yeah. You can tell. You can really tell. And we should have said this off the top, but Viche is, Creative Control is a podcast, if you haven't listened to it, you should listen to it. If you like music, if you're maybe a bit obsessive about music, Viche does a really phenomenal job of, you know, conversations with famous people. People uh for people who listen to this show you might want to start with some of the david berman stuff because it's it's pretty spectacular and uh and then work your way through the pavement but it's all it's all good from the stuff that i've heard for sure well thank you for the kind words and for saying so yeah i uh i do love doing the show and uh it has uh you know it's granted me access and insight, uh, to, and from people I really, truly admire and adore. And, uh, yeah, I marvel at, uh, what I've been able to, uh, accomplish and get away with, uh, it is, it is, I don't really understand it, but certain people like Bob and others, uh, uh, have a fondness for me and return to the show and all that sort of stuff. And, uh, so yeah, it means a lot. Thanks for saying that. No, no, I should have said it off the top. but uh what do you say we talk about the the song this week song number 18 let's do it okay we'll be back right after this hey.Track 1:[25:48] This is bob mistanovich from pavement uh thanks for listening and now on with a countdown 18.Track 3:[29:27] So today we're talking all about song number 18 from the masterpiece Wowie Zowie. It's the absolutely gorgeous Father to a Sister of Thought. Vish, what are your initial thoughts about this song? Well, you know, I was so happy that we landed on this as a song to talk about because I do love Wowie Zowie. I have a sense memory of picking it up when it came out. I think the day it came out. um and um obviously a strange sort of a strange record uh an eclectic record uh and this is interesting it's a really fascinating song because in some ways it's super accessible uh musically it leans with the pedal steel and some of the other moves it leans towards country music.Track 3:[30:18] I will say, as I was pondering it, I mean, I know we are in a vacuum here of people who love Pavement and who love Stephen Malcomus, but as I was listening to this in preparation for our chat, I'm like, Malcomus is like an underrated everything. I really feel that way. And in particular, I think he's a remarkable singer. And, you know.Track 3:[30:51] And this song, I think, exemplifies that. He makes super fascinating choices with his phrasing, I think, and just the notes he's going to go for on words. Like, I don't know how to put it. I'm not super adept at maybe talking about music on that level. But it's just very dynamic, the way he shoots his voice up and sort of speaks, sings one line.Track 3:[31:17] And I think aside from missing his sort of grittiness, he also is a great screamer, great yeller. He really is. Like Paul McCartney level dynamic range, I think, with Steven when he wants to. Like he can sing. I don't know if that resonates with you. Like McCartney, to me, can sing anything. He can sing a ballad. He can sing like a Little Richard Rocker and sound like a punk. Like it's bonkers, that guy's vocal range. And I think Malcomus is in that, totally in that vein. So he's not yelling on this song but i think if anyone is interested like this song is a perfect showcase for what he can do as a vocalist and before i go much further jd does that resonate with you it certainly does i when i think of this song you know the word i used right off the bat was gorgeous uh and it's gorgeous in a number of ways the vocal the melody uh like his ability as a songwriter. I don't know how much of the arranging he did, or if it was Easley who said, let's use this pedal steel.Track 3:[32:25] But nevertheless, it just works so well with the timbre of his voice. And it all comes together in a really lovely ball.Track 3:[32:36] Yeah, and I think the little contrarian aspect to, or I don't know how to describe it, this little element of, yeah, it's a little contrary, I think, you know, I don't think I'm saying anything untoward where there's an element of self-sabotage sometimes in the pavement realm where everything's going fine, and then all of a sudden, let's pull the plug and do something wild and nuts or crazy, you know what I mean? And then yeah so this song has this really jaunty country vibe and then it ends with this like, minimalist noise rock stomp damn yeah yeah yeah like it gets it suddenly becomes a little more punk after the sort of so it's kind of this and it's all part of this it's that end it has nothing to do with anything else we've heard no instrumentally nothing but it works like it works so perfectly and i think it's a way of being like all right i think i think we're getting a little saccharin here it's too gentle or something let's end a little more raucous and uh so to me i hadn't really pondered it as such before but between malchumus i think singing his ass off and and really showing his range uh the band also ends up playing very dynamically and really beautifully and and also grit like as i say there's some grit towards the end so in a weird way.Track 3:[34:03] And again i hadn't thought of it like this was a single as i recall um like there was a video for it and whatnot and they're all dressed up in like country western garb and all these sorts of things, but uh no it's a nice exemplification like this is a pretty good gateway in the pavement if you were like yeah listen to this song again you never heard of this band try this song just try it it's got humor it's enigmatic lyrically the arrangement itself is beautiful but funny uh yeah i i really think uh 18 this should be in the top five it's really wonderful wow yeah i would have it in my top 10 yeah i know you top 10 sure i don't know what these ratings mean i don't believe in ratings and awards but it's water cooler talk no it's i'm just saying as i think about it more first of all uh anyone out there listening uh once i dig into a topic i get a little excitable. So, uh, you can make the argument like, what about these other 10 songs? And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, those are also great. But this, this to me, I think, as I say, it's got a nice balance of earnestness, irreverence, beautiful singing, wonderful playing. Uh, yeah, I just think all across the board, it's beautiful. Yeah. Uh, well said.Track 3:[35:20] When you think back to buying Wowie Zowie, you said you got it on the day it came out. First of all, that's very cool.Track 3:[35:29] And second of all, I wonder, just to go on a tangent for a moment.Track 3:[35:34] I wonder if your penchant for B-sides helped you with that record. Because it's almost constructed to me where there's like a song and then more of a b-side song than a song than more of a b-side song uh you know i'm thinking like brink's job and and and stuff like that um yeah you know so that that would have really helped but what were you thinking the first time and this is asking you to really stretch your brain i apologize but what were you thinking the first time you heard this song on this wicked roller coaster ride of a record you know what it's i know this song gets come or rather the album why always how he gets compared a lot to the white album sure by the beatles um who are from liverpool uh and are no longer around but they were uh that album was um i think it's rightly regarded as this uh odd pastiche niche of sounds and ideas and somehow it it only coheres because contextually they made it cohere like it doesn't really make a ton of sense as an album but it's one of those albums where like i couldn't tell you what the best song on it is because i almost view it conceptually as a whole Oh, wow. Wow. So, there's some of it, like, you can, there are singles from it and whatnot.Track 3:[37:01] But I have a weird, this is more about me, I suppose, JD, than maybe most people, but like, I'm an albums person. So, when an artist or a band puts out an album, I assume, rightly or wrongly, in some cases it's not the case, but I assume it's a unified statement that they're making of a time, of.Track 3:[37:25] Rolling Stones, certain bands, you'll be like, yeah, this album is actually like odds and sods from the previous couple of albums that they just reworked or whatever, revisited. Um, and they still count as albums, you know, certainly Stones in the seventies, you can make that argument. There's a few records where, yeah, like just what I'm describing, it's an album, but it's really like leftovers from some ideas they had. Um, I would put Wowie Zowie in that white album category of like, it's a whole thing. Like, the way it's sequenced, the way songs blend together.Track 3:[38:04] As soon as you hear an artist do that, where the songs kind of barely, there's barely any air between them. Right. That's a sequencing choice. That's a mastering choice. That's all sorts of choices they're making. but there's then tends to be this coherence between them this isn't the case all across wowie zowie but there are songs as you know where it's just the next one just starts you're just right into another song um so it becomes a sort of sweet like thing all this to say uh i might be stalling to answer your question because i haven't listened to the whole album in some time this is going to prompt me to i listened to this song on its own and i will say it was a bit weird.Track 3:[38:48] To hear it on its own because i don't listen to pavement sorry as i've tried to just maybe exemplify i generally don't listen to um bands i got a friend pointed out to me a few years ago he was we were in a band together and he said yeah you once said you don't like greatest hits compilations i said i said that said yeah we were driving we were listening to like acdc or something and you were just it came up in conversation and you said you don't like greatest hits compilations because the context of the music is all out of order and i said right that makes sense to me yeah you're i said yeah okay i don't remember saying that sometimes i say things and i don't remember that i said them and i said oh yeah well i mean i said i said it and it stuck with him like he said yeah i've started to listen that way now because you're right like the context of an album is so important to it so when you asked me to be on the show and and suggested uh you know that we were going to talk about this particular song i just listened to it on its own.Track 3:[39:52] Totally weird. Totally weird to hear it out of the album context. So I think going back to my sense memory, I don't know. I mean, it starts with We Dance, which is weird. And then you're right. Some of the songs seem, I mean, to some people, they would seem like half finished ideas. That's right. Right. Or just like little jabs of things, you know. So you're absolutely right too, like Serpentine Pad, Brink's Job, those sound like they could be B-sides, but I would argue that the pavement B-sides are never really, they don't feel like throwaways to me. I agree. Sometimes they're a little looser and more fun, like things happen and that you wouldn't really hear. No I don't even you know what I'm just going to retract that I think they are all fully.Track 3:[40:48] Realized songs that stand on their own but yeah Wowie Zowie I suppose might have been the first sort of inkling that this band could do anything and they weren't afraid to try anything, I'm sure some people were disappointed after Crooked Rain Crooked Rain to hear this, band be a little more punk but also as we're talking about a song that like I say who knows I don't know I I've not really thought about this in a long time but I'm sure making the construction of wowie zowie and the sequencing was potentially a reaction to how much success and how they broke through with crooked rain.Track 3:[41:34] Yeah, I can get behind that thought because, I mean, it's almost outlined in Cut Your Hair, right? Yeah. That's sort of the blueprint for Wowie Zowie in a way. Yeah, like not deliberately self-sabotaging themselves, but being like, we're maybe a little too big. Let's do something a little less accessible. Like, let's do something a little more. I just want to be clear. I think it's brilliant. I don't find it confusing. But if you got into Cut Your Hair or Gold Sounds or got into that band that you saw freak out on The Tonight Show, you know... And then listen to Pueblo. Yeah, yeah. I think you're kind of like... Yeah. You would just be like, as a band, I doubt it was even conscious, but maybe it was. Maybe we should do something that's a little more like wild. And if that was the case, I'm not sure it was, I'm sure there's literature and I should have maybe revisited some of the liner notes and reissues and things to read about where their mindset was at. But, you know, even describing father to a sister of thought, it has that mix of totally, totally accessible. I could play this for my country music loving grandfather, but then it ends with like, Hey, grandpa, we're still kind of a punk band. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.Track 3:[43:02] Oh, that's great. Going back to the theory of potentially sabotaging themselves, which I'm with you, I don't think they did it on purpose.Track 3:[43:13] I almost think it's like a sound and style change. You're right, Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain was so accessible, and it had a familiar sound. It had sort of a California classic rock kind of vibe to it. It crooked rain is i will interject only to say that i think crooked rain is also super weird.Track 3:[43:35] It is it helped them break through but it is a weird album like it starts weird it has like a full studio sound like it sounds like i know that was made in a bit of a patchwork as well but like it sounds more like a studio record um sure they went they went to a place that that it wasn't going to be noisy and hissy and ambient even though it has elements of that like it has a warmth to it but it's a weird and wildly arranged album too but this is even well coming off a slant coming off a slanted though it seems it just seems more you know readily available i suppose to to a wider birth of people yeah but what i was going to say is it almost reminds me of what sm did when he went solo that first record is so accessible and so poppy and so hooky and so earwormy it's amazing and then he did piglib after that which i fucking adore but it's so off the wall compared to the self-titled debut yeah and if we're viewing malcolm as you know uh obviously obviously the main driver of of their songs then yeah it's it's his whims and it's his.Track 3:[44:50] His notions for a batch of songs like you know i think bright in the corners is uh on some level it's the cleanest sounding pavement album but it's also the most esoteric and and you know i the songs sprawl and they're all over the place as well but it's also somehow more coherent and contained than wowie zowie like but but the songs stretch out that's their what did we talk about with somebody recently uh maybe it was with the pavement guys uh grateful dead type stuff yeah sure yeah like it it has a it's it's a little more zen it's less frenetic even though the imagery and whatnot is pretty intense and some of the arrangements are too so yeah i think it's just modes again this goes back to my argument i love albums i love knowing that we're hearing where a band was at, at that given time. Uh, and, and that, that batch of songs, however, like wowie zowie, however disparate the songs might be from one another, that's what they were into. Like, that's what was going on with them at the time, whether it had anything to do with external considerations or perceptions about who they were, uh, how successful they wanted to be. Like Like, that might just be all bullshit I'm making up. It could just be that's just what he had, what Malcomus and what the band had going.Track 3:[46:18] And this is it. You know, why waste it? This is, it's all over the place. Let's put it out as one thing. The next album, a little, like, I think it's, it's fair to say, uh, Bright in the Corners. Well, you know, maybe it's not fair to say, I'll ask you. Bright in the Corners, probably safe to say a more coherent sounding album than Why We Sowie. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's a more album-y album. Right. In a sense. But I also think Slanton and Enchanted all sounds like it's from the same expression, too. Sure, I guess I mean album to album. I just love the way it opens. There's a middle, and then there's an end. There's a finite end with Finn. Yeah yeah well i mean maybe i don't know like we we mentioned lollapalooza uh there was something going on in the in the moment in the cultural moment where you it was really cool to be an open-ended music listener it was really cool to be like yes we're playing with a folk musician we're playing with shanae o'connor and cypress hill on the same day bonkers and the jesus lizard like on some level that is a culture saying everyone is welcome every sound has merit.Track 3:[47:34] We're sick of the orthodoxies we're sick of there being camps um and so maybe wowie zowie reflects that too uh on a musical level it can be noise damaged it can be a beautiful if strange folk song, it can be a country song, it can be a goddamn screamer where Malcolm clearly loses his voice you know, on Half a Canyon or whatever. Like, it's.Track 3:[48:01] Yeah, as we speak of it, I love that album. And like I say, though, I'm having trouble decontextualizing this song from the whole. Right. And that's more about me. But if we really dial into it, when I say this is a good exemplification of Pavement as a whole, maybe it's a good exemplification of Wowie Zowie as a whole. It has that beauty and thoughtful lyricism where you're like, what's he talking about? What's going on? this is really interesting imagery. Is he talking about Corpus Christi, Texas? Or is he talking about Corpus Christi, the kind of event? Like, I remember just thinking right away, why is he singing about Texas? Like, I have that sense memory. And I have this song and some, I'm just a man. Like, I have just little bits of lyrics that are just always with me that I just hum to myself. And yeah, I, this is one of those songs where I just have sort of mindlessly sung it out loud to myself as i'm sort of tooling around my my life you know i don't know if you have that where you just have these lyrical lyrical fragments but this is definitely one of those songs.Track 3:[49:08] And uh i think um yeah it exemplifies both the band and the album in a really fascinating way for me cool well is there anything you want to say uh more about father to a sister of thought or, well you know i'm a lyrics guy and we didn't uh have a chance to get too far into it but i also i know that i mean it's on the surface it seems to be about spirituality and uh people's relationships to that but with malcolm is also you never really know um on some level i think he's spoken about this song and whatnot but um no i don't know all i'll say is i marvel at the guy and i don't think uh he's one of these people i don't think we marvel at enough as a guitar player as a musician as a as a lyricist and particularly on this song as a singer and i hope uh this isn't uh some people don't find this to be a hyperbole but you know i think we take him for granted as He's a vocalist, and this is a great example of what he can do.Track 3:[50:15] Agreed. Well, Vish, it's been dynamite to talk to you today. We went off on a few different directions, and I'm glad we got to do that. Do you want to talk a little bit more about you and the podcast? And I want to say right off the bat that I said it earlier, Creative Control, it's with K's, Creative Control. So if you're searching for it on the Google, you're going to want to spell it correctly. Correctly well thank you thank visha style of correctly well i will uh immediately say that this is a reference to a hot snake song of the same name creative control um so that's why i didn't make up the case thing and now there's like a fashion company called creative control and i think someone like fashions themselves a rapper and they call themselves creative control but they kind of show up and they don't show up i don't know what's going on but anyway yeah that's my show i mean on the internet they'll be like tweeting ramp like rabidly and then they just disappear. And then I don't know what's going on. Anyway. Yeah. Nothing to do. I, Hey, I copped the name from a band I like, so I can't really complain. Complain spelled with a K by the way.Track 3:[51:23] So, uh, yeah, I have this podcast and as we're speaking, uh, you know, it's, it's still going, uh, and it's more important to me than ever because, uh, it is now my main, job at the moment as maybe by October it won't be, but, um.Track 3:[51:41] Yeah, so all I can say is if you support the work of people like me and JD and want to support podcasters, crowdfunding, I don't know about you, JD, and we don't have to talk too much shop, but the advertising revenue is very minimal and it's honestly a little gross. No offense to your sponsors.Track 3:[52:01] I'd rather just not have it. Yeah, I'd rather not have it. But yeah, the crowdfunding and the Patreon that I have is particularly important to me at the moment. So I have different incentives and different tiers and all that kind of stuff, like pay tiers, and it's flexible and monthly and all that kind of stuff. So sorry to make this about the money. We've already talked about some of the content or whatever, like the people I talked to. Yeah, I'm proud of it. It seems to be relentless. It's never going to stop unless I do and stop making it. That sounded morbid. uh by the way if i die the show will likely die too i i just want to be clear about that but no i i love doing the show it's afforded me um some wonderful experiences and both in the conversations and then just from people like you jd reaching out wanting to talk i mean it means a lot to me so thank you for giving me a time to some time to plug and thank you for having me on this wonderful show of yours and for the the lovely conversation it means a lot yeah for me Me too. Thank you so much. All right, everybody, that's what we've got today. So be cool. Make sure you're safe and wash your goddamn hands.Track 1:[53:15] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcolmists, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you. If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email. JD at MeetingMalcolmists.com. You.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/meeting-malkmus-a-pavement-podcast/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Some sound advice for those who are struggling to be attracted to a genuinely good person. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rebekah-hardy3/support

Episode Summary This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Maria comes on to talk to Inmn about the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, the state of aid going to Gaza, and the obstacles the powers that be have erected to prevent aid from arriving. Guest Info Maria Elle is a wing nut anarchist Jewish dyke extremist whore anti-Zionist psycho who writes poetry, conspires against the Empire, and organizes for collective liberation. You can find her on IG @Lchiam.Intifada or @bay2gaza Gaza Freedom Flotilla: freedomflotilla.org International Solidarity Movement: palsolidarity.org International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network: ijan.org Host Info Inmn can be found on Instagram @shadowtail.artificery Publisher Info This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Transcript Live Like the World is Dying: Maria on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla **Inmn ** 00:15 Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today Inmn Neruin. And today we're going to be talking about a kind of different lens of preparedness than we normally talk about...or no--well, I guess we always kind of talk about it. But we're...you know, we're not we're not going to be talking about a skill today as much as the importance for figuring out how to provide aid when the powers that be: governments and nations that we absolutely don't put our trust in but...are trapped by fail to do that or purposefully obstruct it. And today we're going to be talking about the Gaza Freedom Flotilla and organizing efforts around that and trying to bring critical aid to Gaza. But before that, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on that network. [singing] Doo doo doo doo doo. **The Ex-Worker Podcast ** 01:24 The Border is not just a wall. It's not just a line on a map. It's a power structure. A system of control. The Border does not divide one world from another. There is only one world and the Border is tearing it apart. The Ex-Worker podcast presents No Wall They Can Build: A Guide to Borders and Migration Across North America, a serialized audio book in 11 chapters released every Wednesday. Tune in at crimethinc.com/podcast. **Inmn ** 02:04 And we're back. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I know we had you on the Stranger's podcast recently for your poetry collection, which everyone should pause right now and go and listen to another hour long podcast episode first and then come back and listen to this...or don't. Or listen to it afterwards. Anyways, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Could you introduce yourself with your name, pronouns, and a little bit about yourself and your involvement with the Freedom Flotilla? **Maria ** 02:44 Absolutely. Yes. Hi, thanks for having me. I'm Maria. She/her pronouns. I am a Jewish, anti-Zionist, anarchist, I don't know, organizer, agitator--whatever you want to call it--from the Ohlone of xučyun (Huichin), aka Oakland, California. And I am.... I've been involved doing Palestine Solidarity work since I was a teenager. Originally, I came to awareness around what was happening in Palestine during the assault on Gaza in 2008 and got involved in the student movement and the student occupations that were happening back then. And then actually got kicked out of university as a result of that, which ended up being perfect because I got the opportunity to join the International Solidarity Movement doing work on the ground in Palestine, which is an amazing group that folks should look up. They were defunct for a little bit during COVID but have come back and are working again basically bringing comrades and activists from around the world to stand in solidarity with Palestinian resistance on the ground in Palestine. So I had that opportunity and then I came home and got involved in organizing back here and was not.... So the flotilla, the Gaza Freedom Flotilla has.... So, freedom flotillas have been sailing, trying to break the siege on Gaza since 2008. Basically, a flotilla--for those who don't know--is a group of boats. So it's a group of boats from.... Our flotillas or group of boats from all over the world. There's over 30 countries that are involved sending comrades and activists to break the siege on Gaza. And so these boats are filled--our current boat--is filled with 5000 tons of food and medical aid that we are attempting to bring directly to Gaza in defiance of Israel's illegal naval blockade. These.... Like I said, these missions have been happening since 2008, trying both to bring aid to Gaza and to bring awareness, international awareness, of Israel's blockade and kind of getting a lot of international notoriety 2010 When the Mavi Marmara, a Turkicsh ship that was part of the flotilla, was attacked. And nine people were murdered in that process. And it made headlines at the time and brought a lot of awareness to the ongoing siege on Gaza. And then since then there have been many attempts to break the siege. This year, of course, is a different context. And it's a little bit hard to know what to expect. As you know, as many of us already know, there has been a genocide happening in Palestine since 1948. But the particular intensified moment of genocide that we're in creates a different context that we don't totally know what to expect. But we are determined to sail. We are determined to break Israel's illegal siege on Gaza. And especially now more than ever, while there's been a humanitarian crisis in Gaza for a very long time, and this blockade has been happening for 18 years, the famine that is now gripping Gaza is unprecedented. And we are seeing mass death, especially in the north of Gaza, and that is spreading throughout Gaza. Now with the most recent attacks on Rafah, the situation just gets more and more dire every day. One of the goals of the Freedom Flotilla is to emphasize that this is not a natural disaster. You know, there's.... A lot of the way that this gets covered in US media and global media is as if this was a humanitarian--people use the word, "humanitarian crisis," and they use the word "famine." And both of those things are true. And they're also a little bit misleading because this famine is being intentionally created by Israel as a tool of genocide. Israel controls the flow of all aid moving into Gaza and is intentionally and carefully counting how many calories it is allowing into the Gaza Strip in order to intentionally keep the population on the verge of starvation in order to cripple the resistance. This needs to be highlighted. This isn't.... It isn't like they don't know how to get the aid in. It is not logistical obstacles. They try to make it seem like this is, "Oh, how can we possibly get aid in?" Israel has closed every barrier. Like, the fact that we even need to go by sea is insane. They could open the land crossings, which would be the most effective way, but they absolutely refuse. And the United States, our so-called government that has the power to do that and has the power to force the--probably the only government in the world--with the power to force Israel to open the land crossings--is instead building this pier, spending millions of dollars of wasted money that could be being used on aid or, you know, on stopping Israel. And this long drawn out project that now isn't even functioning due to like "climate" or "weather." I can't even remember what they said. There's some kind of structural damage. I mean, they put all this money into it and like still can't deliver aid somehow. And we're supposed to believe that that's a coincidence. Meanwhile, we have a plan to,within three days, effectively deliver all of this aid to Gaza by simply having a basic little fold-out pier that we have packed on the ship that could unfold, deliver the aid, and then we can leave again. It's actually really simple. It's not complicated. None of this has to be complicated. It's being intentionally made complicated as a tool of genocide and as a tool of hiding what Israel is intentionally doing. So that's really a big part of what the Gaza Freedom Flotilla is about. I would say that it's rooted, ultimately, in the principles of DIY and direct action, which are fundamentally anarchist principles to me, and to many of us, the basic idea that no one is going to do this but us. If we want something done, we have to do it ourselves. We cannot rely on these so-called governments who, many of whom around the world claim to support Palestine and give lots of lip service to the need for aid to get in and even for Palestinian Liberation. Other governments, such as our so-called government, have done nothing but contribute to and fund and exacerbate this genocide, still give lip service to "Oh, we need to get aid into Israel," but they're not going to do anything. At best, they don't care. At worst, they actively want this to happen. We cannot wait for them. We've been trying.... Like, you know, not that.... You know, fight by every means necessary. I really do believe in a diversity of tactics. And at the same time, we need to be honest with ourselves that there is no amount of pressure that we can really put on the Biden administration that is going to change the US' has strategic Imperial interest in propping up Israel, you know? And there's no amount of electoral or domestic pressure within the existing system that we can put in that will change the fact that Israel is a beacon of US imperialism in the Middle East. It is a central part of US imperialism's operation globally. And not only our military imperialism but our economic imperialism. So as many of you may already know, and many of you may not, a big part of the impetus for this genocide has to do with global trade and global shipping. So, after the Suez Canal crisis, we saw.... It became clearer than ever to the international community, how delicate the infrastructure of global shipping is. We saw with the simple breakdown of one ship in the Suez Canal, the global economy was brought to a halt. And it is unacceptable-- [Interrupted] **Maria ** 10:18 It's so fragile. And we saw its fragility even more with COVID and with the plague. And it has become clear to the West that having such an important chokehold located in Egypt is not strategic for them. And so Israel has a plan to build what they're calling the Ben Gurion Canal, which is going to be directly north of Gaza, within missile range of of Gaza to be clear, that would be an alternative to the Suez Canal and that would allow for Israel's, and therefore the United States', control over global shipping in a way that we do not currently have. So the depth of the economic investment in committing this genocide is deeper than even natural gas off the coast of Gaza, which a lot of us have also seen headlines about. And a lot of us already know Chevron's interest and BP's interest in colonizing Gaza and eliminating Hamas in order to secure access to that natural gas, but even beyond that, in order to facilitate the construction of the Ben Gurion Canal. With that much at stake, with both fossil fuels and global shipping at stake, there's a no amount of pressure that we can put up on the Biden administration to get them to like, hear truth, you know? If we want change, we have to make it ourselves. And no one is going to do this but us. And I think that the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, the amount of aid that we can actually deliver it with one flotilla is a drop in the bucket. The principle that we are trying to communicate to the world, and that we've seen in many places, is that we can't wait. We have to...we have to show up. We have to be there for our Palestinian siblings. We have to be there for our siblings around the world. And we have to do it ourselves. You know, I think we saw a similar thing with the Great March of Return, and I'm extremely inspired by the Great March of Return of Palestinians coming from Lebanon and breaking through the border there. And we, you know, continue to be inspired by Palestinian resistance globally and to work in concert with that resistance in order to do whatever we can to stop this genocide, both in the immediate sense and in the ongoing sense of Israel's colonization of Palestine from the river to the sea. **Inmn ** 10:18 It's so fragile. **Inmn ** 12:35 Golly, thank you for that very--I will call it a little bit of a rant thing. That was incredible and very informative. And now I have like 100 questions. **Inmn ** 12:47 I have 100 more things to talk about but lay it on me. **Inmn ** 12:51 Um, I think like, or.... I don't even know where to start. Actually, there's this funny place that I want to start, which I'm maybe gonna feel funny about and is maybe like.... Whatever, I don't think it's me feeling nihilistic about it as much as like confused by imaging in..... So I, as a lot of us have been seeing a lot of news graphics, infographics. And I saw this one recently that was talking about "planned distraction." And it was like this thing that was like, "Israel's really counting on Americans being distracted by Memorial Day weekend to intensify the assault on Rafah." And I was just like, I don't think Israel's thinking about what random Americans are doing. Like, as you say, I don't think there's any amount of pressure that we can put on institutions like the Biden administration to change those things. **Maria ** 14:30 Yeah, it's an interesting question. I mean, I don't know. I mean, nobody really knows. I do think that it's worth noting that the last major assaults on Rafah began during the Superbowl also. So I mean, it's...who knows, maybe they are thinking about it. And Israel is very much concerned with its public image. [half interrupts self] Well, it's complicated, right? They are very much concerned with their public image and they're also on a genocidal, psychotic rampage, which is causing all sorts of domestic tensions. And Israeli domestic politics are a whole nother can of worms. You know, there isn't one--like anywhere--there isn't one unified Israeli interest. Israel, like every other country, is a contestation of political forces with central goals but also pulling at each other and pulling itself apart. And we actually are seeing Israeli domestic-- [Interrupts self] I think it's also very worth noting that last summer before the assaults on Gaza, before the most recent assault on Gaza began, we saw the first ever domestic Israeli social movement, really since the creation of the state. There was an actual--I mean, you know, fairly tame but for Israel significant--uprising of Israelis against their government. And several months later, this genocide happens, right? And this is not a coincidence. We've seen this kind of pattern time and time again, where a state in order to secure domestic unity will declare war or genocide on a foreign enemy. I think it's also worth noting that the plans for this--while October 7th may have been the the spark--the plans for this were very much already in place. And it is very clear from how quickly and strategically and efficiently they have acted that they have just been waiting for this opportunity. So I think that's worth emphasizing. I think, and then I just also want to clarify, as far as like "no amount of domestic pressure," I think that there's...I want to be clear that, like I said, I believe deeply in a diversity of tactics. And I do think that we need to do everything. And I think that there is very--like, I'm not saying that we should all just go to Palestine. I think there's very important roles for us to play here in the United States in organizing. But we need to be realistic about how we're gauging our targets. So we're never going to be able to appeal to the moral or even political interests of--as far as like electoral political interests--of these things. We...I think...I personally think that our best hope is to challenge their economic function, right, and to make this cost so much that they cannot continue. And that's a lot. It has to cost a lot because they have a lot to gain. But you know, what? We have a lot to lose. We have everything to lose and everything to gain. And we need to make this cost more than they can imagine. **Inmn ** 17:28 Yeah. And yeah, maybe to be clear, the infographic that I was seeing, it was like, its suggestion was like, you know, "Get on the phone and call your congress people." And I was just like, you know, yeah, "by any means necessary," and whatever people can do, but I was like, I don't think the one thing stopping.... It framed it in this way--I am gonna get off this topic very quickly and spent too much time on this--but it framed it in this way of like, "Oh, if Americans just weren't so distracted by barbecuing over the weekend then genocide and then Gaza would have been over," and I was just like...that. Okay, whatever. Anyway, a real question. So I think maybe something that I've been curious, I guess, about is some of the like geopolitical--or like, specifically like geographical--forces at work where.... Like for the.... Can you tell me about waterways, waterways in and around Israel and Gaza? Like I guess like what is the proposed route? Or like, what are some of the.... Like, how get Flotilla? **Maria ** 18:48 How get Flotilla. **Inmn ** 18:49 How blockaded? **Maria ** 18:52 Through the Mediterranean. So we had originally, we had originally planned to sail from Turkey, from Istanbul, and I was actually in Istanbul with hundreds of other people. We were, our bags were packed, the boat was full, we were ready to sail, and the mission was bureaucratically sabotaged by Israel. This was several weeks ago. **Inmn ** 19:13 Is this the flag thing? **Maria ** 19:14 Yeah, so Israel has tried many different avenues to sabotage the Flotilla, including physical sabotage of the ship. But one--and this has happened for many years--but one tactic they have not tried before, and that we were not prepared for, was that they pressured.... So I don't know how much people know about shipping. But every ship that leaves a port has to pass to sail under a flag, a national flag. As far as I understand, any ship that doesn't sail under a flag is technically considered a pirate ship. [says incredulously, laughing] So if we wanted to leave and be allowed to leave by the Coast Guard, we would have to have a national flag. And usually those flags have nothing to do with the mission. You basically buy a flag to sail under. It's interesting. It's actually kind of like a side hustle for a lot of poorer countries, they sell their flags at a cheaper rate and with less bureaucracy. So I think most international shipping actually happens under the flag of the Philippines. But we were gonna sail under the flag of Guinea Bissau, which was a flag of convenience. And Israel put immense--Israel in the United States--put immense pressure on Guinea Bissau to withdraw the flag. And so the flag was withdrawn literally the day we were supposed to depart, like bags packed and ready to go. And, you know, we could have...like the captain could have, I suppose, made the choice to sail anyway, but then that would have forced a confrontation with the Turkish Coast Guard, rather than with the Israeli naval blockade, which people felt wasn't...wasn't worth it. You know, for better or worse. Whatever. The people thought it wasn't worth it. And that it was a better plan to just try to get another flag. So the flotilla is delayed as we are searching for another flag. That process is well underway. And I am hoping.... We'll have more information within the next week about where that is at and when and where we're planning to sail from. It's not sure that we'll be sailing from Turkey anymore at this point. Turkey would have been about a three day sail to Gaza. And at this point we might have to be looking at somewhere further out. TBD. **Inmn ** 21:27 Like somewhere further out to escape the influence of Israel putting pressure on those local areas? **Maria ** 21:36 Yeah, so there was a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure put on the Turkish Government. And Turkey, while it gives incredible lip service to supporting a free Palestine, is actually deeply economically dependent on Israel. And the domestic politics there is a whole can of worms. Anyway, I don't know where that's at. That's not part of the...that's not the team that I'm on. You know? I'm doing a lot of more of a social media and grassroots organizing here in the US. So I'm not one of those people figuring that part out. But, I mean, we can all see, we all basically know the general geopolitics of that region and how complicated it is for any country in the world to allow us to sail because of the possibility of antagonizing Israel, and what that can mean as a nuclear power and as a proxy of the United States in the region. But we will. We'll find a place that we will do it. Inshallah, very soon. And that is underway. I think as far as what's happened in the past, so what's happened in the past, most of the Flotillas have not--actually all of the Flotillas--have not actually made it to Gaza. They are pretty consistently stopped, often in international waters--which is illegal--before arriving. There are no ports in Gaza that one could land at. So like we said, we had this plan with a pier that can unfold. In the past Israel has stopped the flotilla with its naval blockade. In 2010 the ships were famously--one of the ships in particular--was famously attacked, and nine people were were murdered in that process. Since then, there have been no fatalities. No one has been matyred. But everyone pretty much has been arrested and deported. **Maria ** 21:37 From like international waters? [Said confused like it sounds sketchy] **Maria ** 23:40 I think they get brought into Ashdod, usually, and deported from there, like on an Israeli vessel or whatever. I don't know. I haven't been on any of the flotillas before. This will be my first journey. One of my aunts was really involved in them for many years, so I learned a lot about the process, and I've been following the process, since 2010. She's been very involved in--or she was--very involved in it. Gail Miller, may her name be for blessing. So I've been following it but this is my first actual mission joining. **Inmn ** 24:14 Cool. Um, yeah, it's...I don't know, it's.... Thinking about waterways has been something that's been really interesting with a lot of the goings on in and around the genocide in Gaza, like specifically with like...it was fun to see countries like Yemen be like, "Oh, we're gonna blockade Israel or we're gonna blockade shipping routes for Israel shit." And interesting to hear you talk about the connections to global shipping, because then that turned into this big global shipping catastrophe. And like the US and Israel were like "We're protecting global shipping lanes for like the good of Capitalism..." **Maria ** 25:14 One of the first honest things they've said. Yeah, absolutely. I think even with that, it's worth remembering too, just kind of going back to what I said, that the governments of the world are not acting. It wasn't the Yemeni government who took that action. You know, it was it was the Houthis. And overwhelmingly, we see that is not governments anywhere, but rather people working with conviction and solidarity who can actually stop the infrastructure of global trade, can actually stop...can actually have some real impact on this genocide, right? Like, that's one of the only meaningful...you know, people know that acronym BDS, It's boycott, divestment, and sanctions, which is...was a movement in South Africa during the anti-apartheid struggle that the Palestinian anti-apartheid struggle has adopted, and that has been a global call for some time now. And one of the only real meaningful BDS actions we've seen has been by the Houthis, in that way, you know, actually interfering with Israeli shipping. **Inmn ** 26:15 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, that's, interesting to hear. I feel like this is a topic that I've tried really hard to learn about on the internet and every time I do it's deeply confusing. And I get more confused because there's a lot of propaganda from the US and from Israel about, like, you know, who's enacting these blockades and whatever reasons that they make up. I saw...I was reading a little bit about the 2010 flotilla where, either like before or after it, Israel was making these wild accusations that the flotilla was working with Al Qaeda or had all these connections to groups they labeled as terroristic. And then the claims were withdrawn later because everyone was like, "Literally what the fuck are you talking about?" **Maria ** 27:15 Yeah, absolutely. And, of course, they're always going to do that, you know, and they're always going to try any possible means to antagonize and paint any kind of resistance is terrorism, which is also what we're seeing in Gaza, right? They will paint five-year old children as terrorists, you know? They have no shame and and they've gotten so far...they've spiraled so deep into their own narrative that they have really lost the plot. It's kind of wild. **Inmn ** 27:46 Yeah. Yeah. I think there's...it's like this thing that's been happening for quite some time, which seems like less obvious to people who have been paying attention, but like, I feel like a decade ago, or a decade and a half ago--wow, time happens--there, like you said, Israel has had these moments of being deeply concerned with their public image and then these moments of just the veil coming off and being like, which is happening there, it's happening here in the United States, it's happening everywhere, just fascistic forces becoming less concerned with what their public images are and just owning being terrible and fucked up. Being like, "Who's gonna stop us?" **Maria ** 28:39 Yeah, I mean, you know, it's, like I said, Israeli domestic politics are a total mess, but there is definitely a stronger and stronger faction that feels that way. And just thinking about it also, to bring it back to sort of the actual mission of the Flotilla, which is to deliver aid, and.... Well, it's twofold, right? It's to deliver aid and it's to break the siege and highlight the injustice--and not just injustice but absolute insanity--of the fox guarding the hen house here, so that all aid flowing...coming into Gaza has to be searched and is being monitored by Israel, and the sort of intentional, as I spoke to in the beginning, of the intentional famine that is being constructed there. And, you know, we saw in the news in March, that we were on the...we're at a tipping point of mass starvation. And that tipping point has been tipped. We are seeing unprecedented famine happening in Gaza. And I wanted to bring it back to that because I also want to just think a little bit about contextualizing what famine means. You know, I mentioned before that people often treat--like the media often treats this as a natural disaster or something or tries to paint it as a natural disaster-- **Inmn ** 29:53 Yeah, it "just happened" **Maria ** 29:54 --as an intentional act of war and genocide. And I think that we have to frame it that way and we have to both make sure that aid is getting in immediately, and to recognize that this is political, that no matter how much money we send to the Red Cross, if aid isn't being allowed to cross isn't helpful, which is not to say don't donate. Donate. And donate, specifically, to Palestinian mutual aid funds, which are the most grassroots opportunities, the most direct way to get funding, and you can find that...I can direct you, at the end, towards different places to donate The Middle East Children's Alliance has been able to get a lot of aid directly in. There's also a lot of, there's a group called Bay to Gaza Mutual Aid, which has collected a bunch of on the ground places to help people in Gaza. So just to be clear, I'm not saying not to donate. You definitely should. And we have to recognize that without an end to this, to the siege and to the bombardment, and the occupation, aid can only go so far. And I think it's important to contextualize that, to remember that this isn't...this phenomena also isn't unique to Palestine, right, this ideathat the global media treats famine as somehow a "natural phenomenon," when in reality, it's politically constructed. It's not just for Palestine, It's true all over the world. And we're seeing that especially in..... I think you can't actually talk about Gaza right now without also talking about Darfur and Sudan and what's happening there. And I think even more than in Gaza, famine--the politically constructed famine--that affects Africa, and specifically, that affects Black people in Africa, is often treated as "inevitable," and "natural," when it is very much politically constructed. And what we're seeing in Sudan, and the genocide that is taking place in Sudan right now, and the famine that is gripping Sudan right now, is every bit as politically constructed, is every bit as entwined with resource wars with the UAE and Saudis, race for controlling natural gas and resources, and for having a monopoly over those things. And this is this genocide is being directly funded by the UAE, which the United States will not challenge because of our strategic alliances there. And the people being targeted by this genocide are overwhelmingly African agriculturalists who have continued to keep that land fertile and producing food when it is more within the interest of the imperialist powers, and particularly the UAE, to have the land become arid so that it can become extraction sites for minerals and fossil fuels. So all that to say, a big part of the goal of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla is to politicize famine itself, because it is political. **Inmn ** 32:53 Yeah. Yeah, I know, it's hard to actually think of a famine, like a historical famine, that is actually not a political tool, or like an act of genocide. It's like we...when we...when we think of it, even like the word that we have, it's like when we think of famine, we think of there being a lack of something, we think of there being some kind of disaster that is just like, "Oh, the conditions just made it so that food couldn't be produced." And it's...it's never that. And, at least in English, like we don't really have a word for enacted famine that I can think of that isn't just genocide or that isn't just like purposeful starvation. It's like this entire language lacks a word for this tool that is used. **Maria ** 33:51 Caloric warfare. **Inmn ** 33:54 Yeah, um, I guess like kind of change tack a little bit, I feel like I'm using you as my filter for trying to learn about things on the internet and like running into so many weird like blocks that I'm like, I have no idea what's going on because the global media apparatus is horrible. But what.... I guess like what's going on with world government efforts to like get like food and aid into Gaza? Like I know there's been like a lot of back and forth with what like the UN is doing to get in food and it seems like that's not happening anymore? **Inmn ** 34:40 Where was the pier being built? And, like, what, like there weren't other peirs? **Maria ** 34:40 Right. I mean, one of the most bizarre things that's been happening that has been a lot of the efforts right now is airdrops. So people are like, "There's no way to get aid into Gaza. We have to literally drop it from the air," which is not only unhelpful, but has actually been dangerous and had has caused injury and the destruction of the aid being delivered and has been, shockingly, both ineffective and unsafe. Meanwhile, you could just cross the border, right? We shouldn't even have to be going in through the sea. There's not even.... Like we're going through the flotilla because we feel like that is our best chance of getting in. But there are... like, Egypt shares a border with Gaza. The Rafah crossing a should be open, and people should be able to bring in aid by land. And there's some aid that is crossing there. But as we've seen, to the extent that Israel will let anything in there, which has been very limited, there are settler...civilian--so-called civilians--although, they're not civilian, because they're armed to the teeth with AK--well not AK-47s but M-16s--actively blocking and looting and destroying trucks that are delivering aid to Gaza. I'm just like, can you even imagine? Like, could you imagine? It's hard like.... Like, what goes through your mind? What lives in your heart to destroy food, going to starving children? You know, I.... Whatever. But like, that's actively happening, you know. And so yeah, the airdrops have been a lot of like, you know, this whole US pier that I think I spoke to earlier that they're trying to construct this peir, they constructed this peir. It was pseudo operational for a minute. Now, it's non-operational, again, spending millions of dollars for this basically theater, when the US could, in a heartbeat stop sending aid to Israel and end this whole thing. **Maria ** 36:45 Off the coast of Gaza. It's a floating pier. So yeah, it's whatever.... It's a floating pier off the coast of Gaza. No, it's...I mean, it's honestly, like it's a whole charade. To be honest. Like the United States could, tomorrow, stop this but they won't. **Inmn ** 37:08 Yeah. And it's like the excuses are always these like strange logistical, bureaucratic excuses. Of like, "Oh, I don't know, the pier, the pier didn't work out. Or like, if only we could secure the border crossings, then aid could flow freely through." [Said sarcastically] **Maria ** 37:29 Right, exactly. Which, you know, is a common thing that we see globally too. We see it in this country to some degree like the crisis at the US-Mexico border, which I believe you're at right now. Like, they treat it like..... They treat so much of the humanitarian crisis that's happening there as if it were an impossible problem to solve when it's a very similar situation. It's a intentionally constructed political crisis. **Inmn ** 37:55 Yeah. And it's like, you know, there's a kind of, I guess, famous zine--or maybe people haven't read that one in a while because it's been a long time. But there's a scene called Designed To Kill, which is exactly how the US-Mexico border works. It's like the way that you hear government talk about it, they talk about it as if like, "Oh, we just can't do literally a single thing about it. We have billions of dollars, but we just can't solve this problem." And it's like--this is gonna sound weird--but it's like when you hear Border Patrol talk about like, like, "If only we could figure out how to stop people from coming in," which is not anything that I would ever want, but is what the government talks about. And it's like, you're not trying to do that. If you were trying to do that, it would be quite easy to do that. Like you have designed a system to funnel people in, to exploit them through private prisons, to psychologically terrify, and kill people. **Maria ** 39:06 Absolutely. **Inmn ** 39:06 It is a sick and twisted thing. It is a disaster of your own creation that you then LARP as being the humanitarian actors for, for like public image. Like Border Patrol has a.... Border Patrol has a search and rescue unit. They have like a helicopter that they tote around. [Affirmative sounds from Maria] Fucking absurd. 39:32 I know. I know. Yeah. I mean, I think that you know, I believe you were involved with No More Deaths at the US-Mexico border for a long time, and I think that there's a very similar principle as with the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, that the people who created this crisis are not going to be the ones to stop it. And if anyone's going to do something, it has to be us. We have to do something. Because, yeah, the colonizer isn't going to stop colonizing unless we do something about it. **Inmn ** 40:03 No. And it's like we can't count on.... It's like, we.... Like a lot of people, I think have this, like this myth or hope or whatever that like, "Oh, well, if things ever get really weird, like the UN will step in," or something. And it's like the UN has proceeded to literally fucking nothing. Or it's like the...like, what is it? The I forget the acronym for that court, the UN court, the world.... **Inmn ** 40:31 Yeah. Yeah, the ICJ making rulings towards Israel about, "We want you to stop the genocide." And they're like, "Well, we're not going to do it." And it's like the ICJ does literally fucking nothing. **Maria ** 40:31 The ICJ 40:47 I mean, I believe that ICJ is interesting. The ICJ did issue an arrest warrant for Netanyahu, which, as far as I can tell, only means that there's like, certain countries he maybe can't go to or like, if he loses this war, which inshallah, he will, that there could be potentially be consequences for him. But that really, like, you know, it's all about real politics. That really just depends on how the war itself goes, you know? Like the international arrest warrants issued in Nazi Germany only were meaningful because Germany lost the war. I just wanted to, I mentioned No More Deaths early and I realized that probably not all the listeners know what that is. So I just thought I'd say No More Deaths is mutual aid project at the US-Mexico border. Grassroots, mostly anarchist lead from what I understand, project. Once upon a time, at least. **Inmn ** 41:45 Let's say anarchistic. **Maria ** 41:48 There we go, there we go. That [NMD] provides mutual aid that both has like emergency medical care and food and also like hikes the desert searching for people who are lost and helping evacuate people who are in need and giving direct aid at the Border despite the Border Patrol's attempt to criminalize those efforts. Which I know a lot of our listeners have probably been involved in. I believe you were. I went out there for...a long time ago. I went out there to do that. But I do think that there's powerful mutual aid projects like that happening here in Turtle Island, too. So it's worth shouting them out. **Inmn ** 42:29 Yeah, and it's like there's a lot of really interesting parallels between all of these mutual aid projects, and also the systems that create the need for them. Where, I don't know, there's so many Israeli defense contractors that got hired to build the virtual--like Elbit Systems got hired to build the virtual wall in the Border and it's like, the similar systems that get used in Palestine. And there's.... It's freaky. There's this, in Arizona, there's this company trying to build like a water pipeline from the Gulf of Mexico to Scottsdale or something. And it's the same Israeli company that builds pipelines through...or like distillation centers in Palestine. 43:28 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we see similar collaborations with Cop City in Atlanta. It's all, it's a global war machine. And we see it functioning exactly the way it's intended to function. But you know, we also have a power to be a cog in that machine. And I am weirdly optimistic a lot. I actually have a lot of faith that we can, you know, this machine can't operate without us, especially us here in the heart of Empire. Like this is in so many ways the veins of empire where so much of it is plotted and executed right here on Turtle Island. And we're uniquely positioned in a lot of ways to clog those arteries. We just have to find the courage and the confidence and the organization to make it happen. And I have so much faith in our ability to do that. Yeah, before, before we run out of time--I don't know if we're coming up on time or not. But I wanted to just also make sure that there's--and I mentioned this, but I just want to give it enough space that this crisis did not start in October. And it also didn't start with the siege of Gaza 18 years ago. This has been a crisis that has been exhibiting in its current form since 1948, since the creation of the State of Israel and the Nakba, which is the genocide of the Palestinian people in order to create the State of Israel and really for longer than that, since Zionist immigration began in the 1880s. And this crisis didn't start now and it's not going to stop when the bombs stop falling on Gaza. This crisis will not end until the settler, ethnic national...the settler, nationalist ethno state of Israel is dismantled. And really until the whole global system of settler colonialism--and all of the national states--are dismantled. But to look specifically at Palestine, like there is no...this is not over until Zionism is over. Zionism needs to be ended, and that the settler ethno state of Israel needs to be ended. And that until all Palestinians have a right to return to their homelands, until all Palestinians have a right to move freely in their homelands, until all Palestinians have a right to autonomy and self governance within their homelands. And by self-governments, I don't just mean to have a State, but to be able to have agency over their own lives and their own decisions. And until that, the struggle isn't over, and it can't be. And, you know, I think I'm actually very hopeful about this moment, I think that there is...that there is an incredible not, just an outpouring of support for the Palestinians, but incredible recognition of the state of global colonialism in the 21st century and its relationship to resource extraction and what we can do to stop it and I know that the Palestinian.... Like part of the reason that people around the world have responded to what's happening in Palestine the way they do is because this really resonates with so many indigenous people's struggles everywhere. Indigenous people all over the world see their struggle in the struggle with Palestinians and are rising up all over the world and it is very much a global struggle and very much that to free Palestine is in so many ways to free the world. **Maria ** 43:28 Yeah, yeah. Um, I know that you're...you've been part of some...part of this larger project...movement...coalition? I don't know words. But are there...are there ways that people can plug into this? Like if someone's like, "Yo, I got a boat. I want to join the flotilla." Can they do that? 47:25 I don't know about a boat. Well, I mean, if you've got a big boat. These are big boats we're talking Yeah, these are these are big boats. But um, I would say in general, yes. So the website is freedomflotilla.org. You can also find it on all the social medias, but especially you can find it on you know, TikTok, Twitter, Instagram. Also, specifically for those in the so-called San Francisco Bay area, we have our Bay to Gaza contingent that is...we are currently growing and expanding and getting ready to sail, so you can follow us on Instagram @Bay2Gaza. We're also on TikTok and Twitter, and you can reach out to us there if you're interested in supporting or getting involved. My Instagram is @lchaimIntifada. You can also message me there. I check that a little bit more. And, yeah, reach out. We're definitely still recruiting. We don't know exactly when we're going to sail yet. But we need all types of support. And especially, you know, in a lot of ways, this is a media project. This is about shedding light on a phenomenon. So especially folks who have skills in media are very much needed right now. Both legacy media but also social media. **Inmn ** 48:41 Yeah, yeah. Cool. Um, as we get...I guess, get to the end of time--our time, not the end of all time--are there any other things that you wanted to talk about? Any questions that I didn't ask you that you wanted to just touch on? I feel like I had 100 more questions that I will never remember until we stop the recording. And then I'll remember them. 49:11 Happy to keep talking after we stop the recording. But um, no. I mean, I think yeah, like I said, please, the best way to follow us is on social media. And please reach out if you are interested. And I would say other than that, taking the principle of the Flotilla, the principle that nobody is going to do this if we don't, and that we cannot depend on governments or higher powers to make change. We have to make it ourselves, and apply that to all of your organizing. Apply that to the ways, the strategic ways that you're thinking about challenging genocide and occupation and colonialism everywhere that you are, you know. I think that most of our organizing does need to be done at home where we live. And the message that I want people to take away, personally, from the Flotilla is that if we want change, we have to make it ourselves. And to use that framework, and I think...I think what that really is, is the framework of direct action, personally. I think that the word "direct action" has really lost its meaning. And a lot of activists spaces on Turtle Island in particular, people kind of think that direct action just means chaining yourself to something. And I am firmly of the belief that direct action means...it can mean three things. It can mean destroying something that needs to be destroyed, interfering with something that needs to be interfered with, and creating something that needs to be created. And you're doing it directly as opposed to protest, which is when you're asking power to do it for you. And I think there's a role for both. I think there's a role for protests and there's a role for direct action. But we should know what the difference is when we're framing our strategy, and encourage people to look to a framework of direct action and of destroying what needs to be destroyed, creating what needs to be created, and interfering with what needs to be interfered with. So I'd say that other than getting involved with the Flotilla, just holding those principles and all of our organizing, **Inmn ** 51:05 Yeah. And, can I add a little suggestion to that? **Maria ** 51:12 Please. **Inmn ** 51:13 Also in the realm of when thinking about taking direct action, when thinking about protesting, like whenever, it's like making sure that these things that we're doing are community driven and not relying on, I don't know, political parties, or even nonprofits to guide us through taking action. Like, the only ways that we're going to make it through this is if we do it and can't wait for people with more power to just hand it over. **Maria ** 51:55 Absolutely. And I think that's true on the micro sale scale of mutual aid, which is why we do mutual aid projects and it's also true on the macro scale of how this world will change. And, you know, to me, that's what anarchism is. So... **Inmn ** 52:07 Yeah, well, thank you so much for coming on again. And yeah, listeners, if you want to hear more from Maria, then you can find her on social media or you can go and listen to the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness podcast and you can listen to us talk--honestly, a lot...mostly more about Gaza and the fuckery that is Zionism but through poetry and Maria's beautiful poetry collection, Escape Plan, which you can go check out on the Strangers in a Tangle Wilderness podcast. 52:47 And more about the West Bank, which I didn't get to talk about in this interview. And I'm realizing that was something I missed. But I do talk about that in the other one. 52:53 Do you wanna talk about it now? **Maria ** 52:54 I don't want to add that as like a little side note, but I do just want to say that speaking of like distractions, while this genocide in Gaza has been taking place, Israel has been annexing land in the West Bank at an unprecedented rate, and that the violence, but also the land loss happening right now, is a crisis that needs to be confronted directly. I do talk about that more in the other podcast. **Inmn ** 53:16 Yeah. Cool. Well, we'll see you next time. And I hope that.... **Maria ** 53:26 Free Palestine! **Inmn ** 53:27 Great. Yes. Happen. Free Palestine. I got all the words. At least 10 of them. **Inmn ** 53:40 Thank you so much for listening to Live Like the World is Dying. If you enjoy this podcast, then go do mutual aid. Break the siege of Gaza by any means necessary. But also, if you enjoyed this podcast and you want us to continue to put it on and do other cool stuff, then you can support the podcast and the best way to support the podcast is by talking about it. Tell people about it. If the people that you want to learn more about the weird myths, political myths, constructed to keep us not doing things, then tell them about Like Like the World is Dying. You can also support the show by supporting it financially. And you can do that by supporting our publisher Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. You can go to our website, tangledwilderness.org and find cool things like books and games and other stuff that we sell and make there. Or you can find us on Patreon and at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. And yeah, you can get all sorts of fun things--we're gonna call them fun things--through the Patreon. You can get a zine mailed to you every month, like Maria's poetry collection--well, I guess you missed out on getting that one mailed to you, but you can get other future ones mailed to you-and also you can get us to thank or acknowledge things on your behalf. And we would like to thank these wonderful people and organizations. Thank you Reese, Jason, aiden, alium, Amber, Ephemeral, Appalachian Liberation Library, Portland's Hedron Hackerspace, Boldfield, E, Patoli, Eric, Buck, Julia, Catgut, Marm, Carson, Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, Ben Ben, anonymous, Janice & O'dell, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, SJ, Paige, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea. Staro, Jenipher, Kirk, Chris, Micaiah. And a special shout out to one of our Patreon subscribers who told us that when they have more money, they're going to get the $20 a month tier so that they can get Hoss the dog another acknowledgement, we're just going to thank Hoss the dog like 20 times. Thank you, Hoss the dog. [Chanting] Hoss the Dog, Hoss the dog, Hoss the dog, Hoss the dog, Hoss the dog times 20. Times a million. Thanks all of y'all. Maria, is there anyone you would like to thank in particular today? **Inmn ** 56:34 Oh, I wasn't ready for that question. I'm sorry. That's fine. The people of Palestine, the Palestinian resistance. **Inmn ** 56:44 Hell yeah. Thanks for all and we'll see you next time. freedomflotilla.org, palsolidarity.org, and ijan.org Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

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A sermon from Deuteronomy 18:15-20 and Mark 1:21-28

jD is back and the show is now out on Wednesdays!Transcript[0:24] Hey, it's JD here, back for another week of introspection and reflection on.[0:28] Grief, depression, and the pathway to mental wellness.All the while nourishing my soul with the music and art of late indie rock singer-songwriter David Berman.How the fuck are you doing, everybody?I am okay. Despite my recent disappearing act, in the midst of season two, I am a-okay.In fact, I went to visit my sister in British Columbia, and then I went and visited my friend Tim in Portland, and overall had just a wonderful time.Just a real wonderful time.And I made it back, and I thought, I need to get an episode out.So that's what I'm doing.So there's that. I'm looking out my window right now. It is gray.It is full-on winter. Here we are in the new year.It's January, and I think that...[1:36] I'm experiencing the opposite of what I normally experience at this time of year. I'm feeling pretty good.After several weeks of shittiness and not feeling great, I can tell you that I feel pretty good. And it's got to be this new drug I'm on.It's got to be. uh it's concurrent with my getting this new drug that i am feeling the way i'm feeling i had to titrate up from 25 to 100 because apparently it gives you a rash if you just startat 100 uh which is bananas but these drugs are bananas they truly are you know going in and lifting the hood on your brain and rewiring shit and uh yeah i don't know how how to feelabout that but it's working you know i'm in the front seat and i'm turning the car over and the engine is fucking starting it's fucking starting and this is great news for people who like greatnews news. So there's that.[2:51] I have begun work on the Pavement Top 50 podcast.So that's going to be Mondays. So because it's going to be Mondays and Fridays actually as well, I'm shifting the Berman project to Wednesdays.So going forward, Berman will be out on Wednesdays and we'll go from there.We'll start today and we will go from there. I'm sorry that I'm always doing this kind of housekeeping.You know, it seems at this point that I should be more together, less of a fuck up.[3:32] You know, all that good stuff.But I'm not. I am still the JD that is uncool and underqualified.And yet here I am doing what I'm doing. So there's that.I can tell you that, you know, on my trip west, I went out on a shoestring and I just leapt.I just leapt and said, this is going to work out. This is going to somehow work out.And you know what? It fucking somehow worked out.I had just enough money to make it work.And I didn't go into debt to do this trip. So that's, you know, fucking great. Right.Because money is definitely, I'm learning a big, big thing with me.A trigger, I suppose. Or a result.Maybe is a better way to put it. It's a result of me being triggered.I tend to try and spend my way out of things, my feelings, on ridiculous things, and things that will give me an instant dopamine hit. So...[4:53] You know, I get that rush of excitement and adrenaline and just that good feeling, you know, that really good feeling.Speaking of good feelings, I've cut way down.[5:10] Well, December was a rough month.September and October, no, October and November, I cut way down.I think in November I had 30 drinks.In December I had 90, so I was up by 200%, which isn't great, but I feel like I've got things under control.I feel like I've got both hands on the wheel to keep the driving metaphor going.And that's good. that's a good feeling to feel in control of your you know fucking idiocies um and yeah i am i'm feeling in control it's uh it's good now i i had to scrape the bottom to gethere i'm not gonna lie to you i was really fucking low uh which is part of the reason why i didn't record but i've been been told by several people, those are the episodes that you like thebest.Those are the ones where the raw and honest JD comes out and you get to hear, how I'm dealing with things, and oftentimes you can relate to how I'm dealing with things, so that's good.As opposed to me coming in and jumping through hoops and saying, oh my god, everything is fantastic, everything is great. ah.[10:37] Don't step on that shit jd you gotta you gotta leave it you gotta just leave it and let it just resonate and uh that's what i did that's a pretty good fucking song right this is a great recordthere's a reason why this is um considered you know one of the best records indie rock records of the 90s and certainly among the best in the catalog of the silver Where does it rate foryou?Send me an email. JD at MeetingMalchemist.com would love to hear from you.It would be cool to hear where you rank your Silver Juice records.I just recently spoke with somebody who really likes the early stuff, who really likes Dime Map of the Reef, and that was surprising to me.I like the more melodic stuff.So this song is very melodic and mysterious as well.I don't quite understand the lyrics. I don't, I definitely don't understand the title.Like, like, the, the, the death.[11:42] Like, like, the, the, the death. Everyone's coming back to Christmas for Texas.Folks who watch their mother kill an animal know that their home is surrounded by places to go and the West has made to deal with the son.Good lord. The man is so gifted and so talented.It's just an absolute travesty that he's no longer with us.Let's celebrate the man a little bit more with one of his poems now.This is part two of the poem that we started last week.It comes from Actual heir, the collection of his works, and it is Self-Portrait at Age 28.So Self-Portrait at Age 28.Track 3:[12:31] I can't remember being born, and no one else can remember it either, even the doctor who I met years later at a cocktail party.It's one of the little disappointments that makes you think about getting away, going to Holly Springs or Coral Gables, and taking a room on the square with a landlady whose hands arescored by disinfectant, telling the people you meet that you are from Alaska and listen to what they have to say about Alaska until you have learned much more about Alaska than you willever will about Holly Springs or Coral Gables.Sometimes I'm buying a newspaper in a strange city and I think, I'm about to learn what it's like to live here.Oftentimes there's a news item about the complaints of homeowners who live beside the airport and I realize that I read an article on this subject nearly once a year and always receive thesame image.I'm in bed late at night in my house near the airport listening to the jets fly overhead. A strange wife is sleeping beside me.In my mind, the bedroom is an amalgamation of various cold medicine commercial sets. There is always a box of tissue on the nightstand.I know these reoccurring news articles are clues, flaws in the design, though I haven't figured out how to string them together yet.But I'm noticing that the same people are dying over and over again.For instance, Minnie Pearl, who died this year for the fourth time in four years.Track 2:[14:01] That is Autobiography at Age 28, Part 2.We will continue this series next week, next Wednesday.As I mentioned, we're switching up the dates that this podcast will drop.It will drop on Wednesdays going forward.That's some pretty incredible work. that is uh, The ending with the, I guess it's sort of like a Mandela effect, you know, where he's imagining that Minnie Pearl has died several times inone year, when in fact she's alive.I just saw a tweet today, and it was Hulk Hogan. It might have been an old tweet, but I saw it today.It's Hulk Hogan, and he's lamenting the death of Bam Margera.And then Bam responds to him hey man, I'm still alive.[15:01] You know that mini Pearl bit is almost akin to that, it's fascinating actually the whole poem is great, when it's done I'll release it as a standalone as well, the whole thing so you canenjoy it all and we'll go from there but that's what I've got for you this week uh you know to summarize i'm in a pretty good place i'm in a good mood we listened to a great fucking songwe heard part two of a great fucking poem and now we're gonna bid adieu so there's that, stay hungry stay foolish and wash your goddamn hands.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/thebermanproject/donations

In The Hunter Biden Criminal Case, The Media "Like Like Hell" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Disconnected physicality rant - Valley Girl meets Alan Watts! Courtesy of Booty Parsons (@bootyparsons) poetically contemplates existentialism through a playful lens. Booty Parsons, DJ and master of the mix, His TikTok is a treat - check it out! https://www.tiktok.com/@bootyparsons?... And Nikki's online presence: WEBSITE: https://www.nikkianajones.com/ TELEGRAM: https://t.me/nikkiana_jones​​​​​​​​​​ TWITTER: @LivingExtraord1 INSTAGRAM: nikkiana_jones PODCAST: https://anchor.fm/nikkianajones CONTACT: Nikkianajones@protonmail.com ODYSEE: https://odysee.com/@nikkianajones:1 BITCHUTE: https://www.bitchute.com/channel/uXvR... Rumble: https://rumble.com/user/nikkianajones --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/nikkianajones/message

Message from week 5 of our series, Like. Delivered by Lead Pastor, Dave Hastings on 07/23/23. 

Incredible.

This week on Game Crunch: Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom has arrived and Mike and Brandon go into depth on their early experiences with the game. There is much to explore and much to build and they've only scratched the surface so far. Brandon talks about his streaming anniversary and Jet Set Radio. He wonders what aspects of a remake lose too much of the original identity of a game. All this and more on the latest Game Crunch! Until next week - Game On!

Like, Literally, Dude: Arguing for the Good in Bad English is the new book from Valerie Fridland, professor of linguistics at the University of Nevada Reno. And Mike is all like, "No Way!" and Prof Fridland goes, "No, yeah!" Plus, a SpaceX rocket is destroyed ... sorry, it experienced "rapid unscheduled disassembly." And closing the barn door after the chicken's been singed. Produced by Joel Patterson and Corey Wara Email us at thegist@mikepesca.com To advertise on the show, visit: https://advertisecast.com/TheGist Subscribe to The Gist Subscribe: https://subscribe.mikepesca.com/ Follow Mikes Substack at: Pesca Profundities | Mike Pesca | Substack Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to Season 12 Episode 4 of the ParentingAces Podcast, a proud member of the Tennis Channel Podcast Network. Our returning guest this week is Coach JY Aubone who takes a deep dive into the difference between "liking" and "loving" tennis and what that can mean for overall junior development. Those of you who are long-time listeners of our podcast are very familiar with JY and his no-nonsense approach to helping junior players reach their full potential. Whether it's through his virtual coaching services or in-person instruction, JY has a real talent for assessing a player's commitment to doing what it takes to achieve their stated goals. He understands that going all in isn't for every child, and he helps parents understand where they should best allocate their financial and other resources to make the journey an enjoyable one for all involved. If you have more questions or would like to get in touch with JY, you can reach him via his website, AuboneTennis.com. If you aren't already, be sure to follow JY on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram as well. If you're so inclined, please share this – and all our episodes! – with your tennis community. You can subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or via your favorite podcast app. If you haven't already, be sure to become a Member of ParentingAces by visiting https://parentingaces.com/membership-join. And check out our logo'd merch as well as our a la carte personal consultations in our online shop (Premium Members received FREE SHIPPING every day!). To support ParentingAces' work with a financial donation of any size via PayPal, click here. CREDITS Intro & Outro Music: Morgan Stone aka STØNE Audio & Video Editing: Lisa Stone Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Darius and David discuss people who use “like” after every three words, music, Question of the Week responses and more. Enjoy. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

2022.09.30 – 0638 – Do You Like “like”?Do you like “like”?Many people find the developing use of this word infuriating. Critics say that it makes speakers sound stupid (“It's like, when you're, like…”), and there's even an app, LikeSo[1], which listens to your speech and promises it can stop you using the word. “Like” tends not to, in comparison to “umm” and “err”, have an audible silence either side of it and it is used in many different ways, not just as a ‘filler'[2],[3]:It is used as a verb: “I like the smell of what's cooking”As a preposition: “This tastes like (“as though”) it was made in a restaurant”. As a quote: “I said, like, that's delicious”As a discourse marker, to start and to end conversations, or to start new topics or change topics. “What did I do last night? Like, had dinner, hung out” and the related use in the Geordie tradition of finishing sentences with a “like”: “He cooked dinner for me, like”As an adverb to mean approximately, “It was super quick to cook, like 30 minutes”As a noun in reference to social media “I gave it a like on Facebook” “If you say, “He was like, seething about the pasta sauce”, you are quoting someone's reaction, but at the same time highlighting you are approximating their response, while pausing to highlight that you are thinking meaningfully about this reaction in real time. That one word is doing all those jobs.Sam Wolfson, The Observer, May 2022[4] The number of ways the word is used is actually quite skilfully included in a conversation. After all, the English language is an evolving one and there's no one ‘right way' to use it to convey your thoughts and feelings, so the person you are talking with understands you. [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/likeso/id1074943747 [2] In 2017, contestants on the UK dating series ‘Love Island' used the word “like” 76 times in a five-minute conversation – that's once every four seconds. Hear the exchange here: https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/4060212/love-island-2017-girls-say-like/ [3] Adapted from: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/may/15/why-do-people-like-say-like-so-much-in-praise-of-an-underappreciated-word [4] In https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/may/15/why-do-people-like-say-like-so-much-in-praise-of-an-underappreciated-word Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Be sure to check out Devy to Dynasty Podcast and subscribe on YouTube Jason DiRienzo is @allpurposescout on Twitter be sure to follow him and all of his work Brandon Lejeune is @DevyDeepDive on Twitter be sure to follow him and all of his work SAVE 15% off ANY DynastyNerds.com MEMBERSHIP: PROMO CODE: FEVER   If you love Dynasty, you love Rookies. Look no further than The Rookie Fever Podcast. You've heard of a youth movement, Rookie Fever takes it one step further. We can't get enough, we are hot for Rookies. Stay up to date on Rookies. Rookie Fever is everything Rookies.   Be sure to go to https://campus2canton.com/ and use Code FEVER save 10%  If you love Dynasty, you love Rookies. Look no further than The Rookie Fever Podcast. You've heard of a youth movement, Rookie Fever takes it one step further. We can't get enough, we are hot for Rookies. Stay up to date on Rookies. Rookie Fever is everything Rookies. Be sure to check out our new Rookie Fever Store https://rookie-fever.creator-spring.com   Thanks for listening, please download, subscribe, 5 star review, please tell a friend. Follow us on Twitter:  @RookieFever @AardvarkTV Michael Fanaro @SwagzillaZeroG Shane Swager

Vengeance (2022) is a dish best served cold. Wait, isn't it revenge?  We also give our quick thoughts on Beast and Breaking as well as the week's biggest film & tv news headlines.This week's foundation:PREVENTION FIRSTTime Stamps:News: 0:57 - 20:00"What did I just watch?" Week: 20:03 - 23:06"Lets get physical." Physical media: 23:10 - 25:11(Not so) 60 Second Review: 25:15 - 29:38As Seen on A Saturday Night: 29:44 - 42:15

Today we are talking about how we work on our business, quite often real estate's a very easy business to literally become a slave to. People think that we can just choose our own hours, we don't choose our own hours our clients do. And if their clients are choosing our hours for us, that means you have none. So what we have to really do is work very smart.Jess Lenouvel is the creator of The Listings Lab and has helped thousands of real estate agents manage their time and business to start attracting clients and not chase them.Three Things You'll Learn in This EpisodeHow to prepare your business for a market correctionHow to better manage you timeHow to become a seven figure realtorResourcesLearn more about Jess LenouvelReal Estate Marketing DudeThe Listing Advocate (Earn more listings!)REMD on YouTubeREMD on InstagramTranscript:So how do you attract new business? You constantly don't have to chase it. Hi, I'm Mike Cuevas a real estate marketing. This podcast is all about building a strong personal brand people have come to know, like trust and most importantly, refer. But remember, it is not their job to remember what you do for a living. It's your job to remind them. Let's get started What's up ladies and gentlemen, welcome another episode of the real estate marketing dude, podcast. What we're gonna be chatting about today, folks is, well, let's be honest, we're getting to we're seeing a correction. And during the correction, it's time to sort of revamp, look at our businesses, our systems, look at all the stuff that we're actually doing and get ready for it. And one of those things is on how we work on our business, quite often real estate's a very easy business to, you know, literally like become a slave to like, you can just you don't own a business people think that we can just like, it's great, we choose our own hours, we don't choose our own hours our clients do. And if their clients are choosing our hours for us, that means you have none. So what we have to really do is work very smart. This is something I'm passionate about, I used to always be someone that always stuck working in the business stuck in a hamster wheel. And once I started really studying business, and this isn't even a real estate thing, it's a business thing, right? Working on it is more important than working in it, otherwise, you'll never grow it. So that's going to be the concept of today. And we have a an author here who just released a book. And it's doing very, very well number one on both Canada and the United States. So without further ado, she's going to talk about the concepts of those books. And if you are feeling like you're running on a hamster wheel, I think you get a lot out of today. So let's welcome our guests. He's been on the show before so you guys may know her already. But if not, let's go just Len NevilleLenovo. That was really close lead NervilleI told her. I told you I was gonna butcher your name. But she's corrected me. But just go ahead and tell everyone who the hell are you?I am Jess I have been in the real estate space for a long time. I grew up in the industry, got my license at 21. My mom's been an agent for 35 year odd years, somewhere in and around there. And yeah, I built a multi seven figure team myself and then transitioned out of selling into helping agents scale their businesses through programs. And murder may 17, I released a book called more money less hustle, becoming a seven figure real estate agent, which is it's out and it's doing well. And I'm glad I'm grateful and I'm glad and it was a it was a really fun. It was a really fun one to two, I say Right. But to be honest, I didn't write it. I dictated it. Because it literally just was more of like a stream of consciousness thing than it was something that I like very meticulously kind of sat down and wrote. I never grew up thinking I was gonna write a book. It wasn't a goal of mine. I got frustrated with a lot of what was out there. And, yeah, I got I got frustrated with what was out there. Because I think that a lot of it is a lot of what is being taught out there is still that hustle grind, you know, crushing it mentality, which is not what I think leads to happy agents. Andit's a hamster wheel. Like we said, like the business sucks. I I moved to San Diego, so I so I can stop selling real estate, because if I would have stuck in Chicago, I would have still been doing it and I hated it. That's why I created real estate marketing. I love the marketing side of it. But I am burnt out man, I'm 17 years in the business I'm done. Doesn't mean I don't like to be in the business I got I sort of miss it in a sense. But yeah, because it's so grinding. So let's get into the principles of the book. Obviously. You're good on time management and all that. And that's probably what the number one skill. I think any real estate agent needs a master. But how do we go out and make more money? Less hustle? What do you what do you what are we doing here? What a real estate agents doing wrong?Yeah, so I mean, the way that I wrote the book is I broke it down into six different pillars, but the ones that are going to really buy back time, like obviously marketing is in there and but but the things that are gonna buy back time are your outs, your automation, your automation operations, outsourcing that side of it, and also the team and hiring aspect of it. And so many agents build teams the wrong way. And we've all been trained in like the same way from the very beginning where, you know, you become the bottleneck, and then you hire an assistant or you become the bottleneck and then you hire your first agent. And there's a step missing in there, because that training and that concept was developed in the 70s in the 80s We have this concept now, which is automation. Right? So Tim Ferriss teaches, you know, eliminate, automate, outsource, it's the perfect way of going about it, can it be eliminated, can it be automated and then last resort, can it be outsourced, there's so many agents out there, right now we're paying a full time salary $50,000 A year or $20, an hour, whatever you're paying to someone, for them to do repetitive tasks that a piece of software can do for $500 a year. And so not only is it time inefficient, but it's also money inefficient. So you know, a lot of what this book really is really geared towards is figuring out, what is it that you want? What do you want the business to look like? What do you want your life to look like? What do you want the day to day to look like? And how do we reverse engineer it? But there are certain principles that are going to show up no matter what, which the first one is a task? Got it? Because I think so many agents are misaligned, when it comes to Well, why would I pay someone $30? To do it when I can just do it? Well, it's because you're valuing money over time. And if you took that $30 An hour task, and you gave it to someone else paid someone $30 to do it, and you replaced it with $1,000 An hour task, then you're ahead. And for most people, what they don't realize is I can do an audit of their time, and look at the value assign an approximate value for the different tasks that they're doing on a day to day basis. And I can tell them how much money they're making.Interesting. So like, we don't put a value on our time. And that's really well said, and what do you say to someone, though, that's like, Hey, I'm just starting in real estate, I'm broke, I don't know where my next commission is going to be. I don't know, when I'm gonna get paid. I'm living a life of peaks and valleys. What do we say to them?You need to be consistent with your marketing. Because really, at the end of the day, like there are like you don't run a business if you don't have clients. So there's like, there's layers of this right. And and the people are asking me all the time right now is who Who is this book for? Is it for that seasoned agent? Who's going who's like, on their way to seven figures? Or is it for a new agent? And my answer is kind of both. And I'm not saying that because I want to sell more books, even though I want to sell more books? The answer is, is that someone who is at half a million, a million, you know, in that range, they're going to take very different things out of this book than a new agent? Well, sure, the new agent is going to look at the overall the overall, you know, strategies, and how not to make mistakes. Whereas the more seasoned agent, or the or the agent who is at a higher level is going to be reworking things that are not set up the way that they should be in their existing business. So it's kind of twofold. But usually what I'll say is like, you know, the marketing piece is going to be piece number one, because I think that in order for you to have a real sustainable business, it really has to it has to be marketing first. So the way that we have the book laid out, is pillar one is marketing. Pillar two is mindset. So it's how are you actually thinking about your business? Are you are you thinking about the business? Like from a, from like, the mindset of of a successful person? I think so often, what happens is we think of our businesses as small businesses, and so they remain small businesses. Right, so that we then we have clients and signature system, which actually creates better services better late, essentially, the product that you're selling, and I think that a lot of agents forget, and this is what you know, one of the things that I get quoted on most, you don't sell real estate, you sell services, and you consult on the sale of real estate. Yep. And so you your your product, which is your service package has to be dialed in and has to be has to be repeatable. So that becomes kind of that next step. Then we've got sales conversations or sales conversions, which is, you know, if you're you can be the best marketer in the world. If you can't get in front of someone and get that person to that next step. It doesn't matter what's going to what, like, it doesn't matter. Right. Are you actually good at getting someone to that next step?Let's stop it right there. back some of these things. Yeah. So first off MT non money making activities let me give you one all you guys trying to edit your own videos, to hire real estate marketing, dude, that is a complete waste of time and you're not going to be good at it. He didn't. He was just like, I'm not gonna do anything. That's why we have editors. But stop editing your own videos and hire me Okay, dammit. But that's true. You gotta get rid of all those tasks that can be beyond there. But you just said something. It's really important. You're right. We're not salespeople. We're service people. And you don't have a service though. If you don't have anything that is duplicatable and what people often don't ever think about in real estate at all is what is your process look like? Like what's your process to working with buyers and sellers? Do you have a consistent gift? Are there systems in place most people don't they run around with their head cut off and there is nothing duplicatable, which means you're just a salesperson chasing the check. And if you can't deliver that service that people remember you don't have a business like there's a reason like when you go into a hotel that the beds are all made the same way. Yeah, folded the same way. Right? Yeah. There's a reason when you go into a restaurant that the food tastes the same. Imagine going into like your favorite restaurant or McDonald's even McDonald's is giving me time to different Yeah, well, that's what happens in real estate. Like you got to have systems I used to have systems for everything I had. When I had a referral. I had a little card I'd send out those automated $10 gift card. I would have a nice to meet you. Thanks for closing gift was the same each and every time. When a clear to close came in the business I had a clear to close gift that I would send the people. I had systems and little customer service touches in a systemized way that we all duplicated. And you're right you can't run a business because you can't have a brand without something that's duplicatable. And what is duplicatable and your business does your process, people often overlook that. So I'm glad that you touched on that.There's a whole section on it on signature systems and how it is connected to each and every piece. If you don't have a really solid signature process or signature system, then you won't get as many repeats, you won't get any referrals, you won't actually handle as many clients, right? It's connected. And it usually becomes the bottleneck. I say to people all the time, if I dropped 100 deals on you what would happen? And they're like, oh, everything would fall apart. Yeah. And it's like, well, then we need we need systems, we need processes, and we need to make sure that everything in your business is repeatable.Yep, I like it. I like it. Alright, marketing, let's unpack that a little bit. What do you see, there's marketing. And then there's lead generation, there's a difference.100%. Right, I like to break it down. I like to break it down between lead generation, nurture, and then conversion. Because I think that all three of them are very, are three separate things. And when we do like I do this audit, sometimes with businesses where we look at the six different levers that you can pull to grow from a business growth perspective. And lead gen is literally just how many people are coming into your world. And almost 100% of the time when I talk to an agent, I'm like, what, like, what, like, where's the challenge in your business? I need more leads. I'm like, Do you need more leads? Or do you need more clients? Yes. And they're like, Well, isn't that the same thing? No, no, not necessarily. Right? And so the conversation happens, it's okay, so there's the lead gen part of it, which I'm kind of, of the mind that like, most people can generate leads. That's not the hardest part of it. Right?And you could, you know, you could buy him, you could generate them, you know,a lot of ways to bring them in. But the magic actually happens in the nurture and the conversion stages, which is how do you get someone and what we teach is the psychological journey from stranger to client. So you know, how do you get someone to touch and touch all of the points that they need to build that elusive know, like and trust, and to be able to have them become from a cold lead to an inbound client, for that person to be reaching out to you to say, hey, you know what, I'd like to have a conversation. I'd like to hear about what you like, I'd like to hear about your services. Yep. Know that that piece is your nurture piece. That's the piece that most agents don't have at all. They go straight from lead gen to I'm going to try to call and convert Yeah.100% There is no, this is all branding, guys. It's like your personal brand. Let me paint a picture for people. So we have this mortgage broker and I'm rebranding, this is funny, you guys will like this. And I'm rebranding him. And this is what he wants to start is very slim. He wants to get on video, right? He wants to go out and do video do a video but he doesn't like his brand, which means doesn't like his process or what he stands for. And his brand is like the mortgage planner. He's like, like, I'm not a mortgage planner at all, like at all. Like I don't I don't plan anything. I'm totally unorganized. Like it doesn't fit me and therefore he can't get out of here. That's what's holding him back. Yeah, so after you get to know me know, this guy's like he ends up being a Star Wars nerd. So we rebrand him made the rate be with you is his tagline now, right? And it's all like Star Wars and he calls himself the Rebel Alliance mortgage team. And now how we're gonna adapt that into his process is that he has everything done through a Star Wars theme. That's what people are gonna remember guys, even the way he communicates. So we're bouncing off ideas, and we're defining process and all that stuff right now. And you know, like, he Jabba the Hutt is gonna cut the fat out of the loan process, right? Like there's all kinds of different ways that you can go ahead and create that experience that we're talking about that people will actually remember. And like There's who are who are you going to remember more? And who are you going to refer more? Because your services marketing? Yeah. Right. Andthat's what the people most important part is important part. It'speople remember how you made them feel that's like, you know, we all hear that st all the time. This is how, like, no one will remember the guy that gets refinanced from Quicken Loans, but they're gonna remember the Star Wars Darth Vader refinance process forever. And there are a lot more, that's just how this you takethe edge off of it totally right, like money is stressful real estate is stressful. Yep. And the more streamlined it is, the more the more enjoyable it is. And the more people this is all about human to human connection people buy from humans. Yep. And so a lot of this comes down to you know, are you What does that psychological journey look like? Are you taking them from stranger to client in as much of an automated way as possible? And then is there consistency? Once you get in front of that person or someone on your team gets in front of that person? Are they going through all of this marketing, and then all of a sudden, they're like, this doesn't feel the same? Yeah, or this isn't what I thought that I was signing up for, or I met this person in real life. And like, I just didn't like them. Because their marketing did was not authentic to who they actually are.And know what that sort of reminds me of is like, when you show up to a restaurant and meet a client, you're like, that's not who I saw in the picture of your day.And real estate agents love that. Right? It's like the glamour shot from the agent. That's what we're known for. And, and I think that it all it all comes down to like video for one. Anybody who says to Me, I'm completely opposed to doing video. Well, I can't help you. Yeah, because really like how in today's day and age, how can you build human connection with someone if you can't see them on video?Yep. I agree. It's not longer optional. It's necessary.Yep. Yep. So So there's, there's, there's all of these pieces. Plus Lena, we teach the, we teach the social media stuff, which is like the you know how to do it without throwing a bunch of money behind it. And then we also teach the paid traffic part of it, which is, you know, how to how to do it at scale. And then, you know, there's, there's elements of the personal side of it. Sometimes people will say, I'm a very private person. And I'm like, you get to be very private, if you want. But we need to have personal elements. I don't need you to necessarily talk to me about like your childhood trauma. But I do need to have some personal elements about how much you love your dog. Yeah, right. Like I need.We don't we don't care about we don't care about your foot fetish. But we need to know that your family man, right,exactly, exactly. Like Like, what are your values? What matters to you, like, give us something to work with? You get to be incrediblyprivate, but just, I might turn some people off if I do that.Well, good. Good, because, you know, I wouldn't you rather have 1000 people who absolutely love you than 100,000 people who really don't care. Yeah, who could take or leave you? Right? And that's really what it comes down to.I agree. I like let's get back in the mindset, thing of it. I don't even mean we're sort of chatting through it. It's just how we're looking at our business. How does that? Yeah, you guys can see some of these ideas that we're we're just chatting here. You know, I mean, yeah, this is, but this is a stuff like what's cool about what I always like about real estate is that everyone's different, which means every single service should be different, but we don't see that. That's why like, I can call myself a dude. And I just started a team here. Give me a year from now, I'll be glad to report my numbers. But it's all marketing because I know there's no other real estate dudes in San Diego. It's a perfect market to launch it. Dude, Brandon is very coastal. Right? Yeah, so the dude process so that's what I'm working through right now is I'm putting together like systems and how to dude sell real estate. Yeah, cuz I'm not going to be the one selling real estate. But I have to create a process for agents to follow because none of them have one. ButI need to have consistency. And the scalability of your business is partially based on Is there a repeatable process? And if somebody comes in and works with Sally, well, your dude so like, maybe there's not a Sally on your team, but it's the same idea. We could have dude, okay, okay. Okay. So so someone works with Sally versus someone works with Mike, they need to have you know, the personality may not be exactly the same. The conversations may not be exactly the same, but the process needs to beYeah. Yep. Yeah. 100% I like it. Let's get into a little bit on the listing lab stuff because I know you concentrate a lot on listings, and that's like your, your core and bread and butter. Yeah, and I think like, like right now it's gonna be all listings, like the market shifted in 45 days. It's so crazy that people are like, just 60 days ago. Oh, yeah, real estate. So easy money, many, many, many, many offers. And then now everyone's like, holy shit, what just happened? Yeah, and people are scared. Right? You guys These are the best times to be in real estate these are when you take over Yeah, it's the best like this these are so this is when you double down on this shit.I have been talking for years about like the moment where all the people who shouldn't be selling real estate will get out. And I'm really hoping that this is the momentthat happened 10 years ago happens every 10 years that's a real estate cycle guysand the who are the people who are running real businesses and who are scaling real businesses and who are taking it seriously and treating it the way that it needs to be treated. Those are the people who are going to not only last but also thrive during this period of time. You know, we're coming from an 8020 rule to a 95 five rulethink it's gonna go that deep ah, I'm kind of hoping so. Yeah. Yeah, you guys when there's a shift, this is like the time that you get noticed like 100% We have a new product we just called listing or owner advocate and all it is is a seller process system. Right? We have five or six different ways we sell listings, like we you know, so we fix them this program, we have a trade in or buyer Move Up program, we have a sale leaseback program. And that's a process guys, the reason why we created as because it's a process that can be duplicatable, that sellers will remember, but each individual will treat it differently. Yeah. And it's okay to have a personal brand. But you also have to have that process.Yep. And it has to be customized to you to your market and to the people that you're trying to work with.What do you what are your predictions coming up with this market right now? What do you think's gonna happen? I'm curious, you have a lot of experience.What I what I think is going to happen with the market.What do you think sure going on?I really think that you know, it also depends on where I don't think that we're gonna see necessarily exactly the same trends right across North America. I think we're gonna see micro pockets. I think that I mean, even just look at the you live in California, the excess that has happened a little bit, right, a lot.There's a lot of people right now actually, that are trying to rush the list because they know they missed the wave, you're seeing listings popping up like crazy, there's no inventory. Now people are like, Oh, it's listless, listless list is becauseeveryone's going to Austin, Texas, or Nashville, or, you know. And so, you know, a lot of it is just going to come down to like those micro pockets. And the people who are really going to do the best are going to be the people who can interpret the data and not just regurgitate it. I think there's so many agents out there that are that are spewing out infographics that are taking something that their their brokerage provided them and throwing it out there as without any interpretation of the data without any information on what does this actually mean for you. And people don't understand it. And people don't understand what it means. And the more that we can actually set yourself up as the authority that can interpret the data that understands the data, and that has a process that can lead you through the process in this specific market is going to make a really big difference.How many people were just posting, I mean, just um, guys, this is only 6090 days ago, the markets never going to go down. It will never go down in percentages, this market is never going to crash or it's not going to crash, it's going to correct. And we will I mean, it's got to correct before it crashes. So we can't say it's not gonna crash? We don't know. But I don't think I don't I don't see. And I think you're right on with the pockets, because people are still going to be moving to Florida, Texas, and all those markets and that migration wave with what's happening, just because the cost of living costs everywhere going through the roof. So yeah, I totally agree with that. Interesting, what else you want to chat on? On this, Jess? What else what other insights you want to share with Damian?I think that the number one lesson that I'm hoping people are getting from the book is that we only get to do this once. And the number one regret, I dedicated the book to my mom, because I think that she really ingrain this in me from when I was very small. The number one regret for people at the end of their life is that they work too much. And that they didn't spend enough time with their friends and family that they didn't experience things. They didn't travel enough, whatever that looks like they didn't they spent too much time focused only on the earning of money. Now most agents will or you know, a lot of agents will grow to a certain point until they're quote unquote, successful, they're gonna do 250 $300,000. And they're gonna get stuck, because that becomes the bottleneck of the business. And it's actually the most painful place to be in your business because you are considered successful, but you're not successful enough that you actually have enough, I would say enough room to properly leverage and when you're not properly properly leveraged, you wear all the hats in your business, and the business relies on you getting up every day and putting one foot in front of the other. The idea of freedom or why people get into real estate in the first place is unlimited income. Being able to set your own schedule and being able to help people 99% of agents know ever hit all three of those, because they're actually not setting up their businesses with them in some of the ways that we've already talked about. So the reason I wrote this is because there are so many are, there's this huge generation of burnt out agents who are the, you know, the crushing it era, right? Tons and tons of burnt out agents and burnout, I think a lot of the time people misunderstand it. And they think, Oh, well, I'll just go on vacation for a week, burnout takes years to actually properly recover from. And so if you, you keep trying to push and you keep trying to move through, and keep doing things the same way that you've always done that done them, at some point, you become the thing that breaks, and you leave, you're either have to get out, or you have to you have to rejig the entire business, which is what this is all about. It's about setting up your business so that you have the trifecta of why we get into the business in the first place. And you can have that path out of production, if you want, you can have that, you know, multi seven figure business. And when I when I'm throwing numbers around like this, you do not have to be a genius to build a seven figure business, you just have to take the right steps, put the right processes in place. And then, you know, make sure that you're holding those boundaries really solidly, because there's a lot of people who build teams, and then they essentially become the personal assistant to everyone on the team, which is the opposite of what we're talking about. So it really just all comes down to what are you building? And why like, what's the end point? And have you actually reverse engineered every single thing in your business backwards from there?Yep. Yeah, I mean, you're on that person. Seven, five years ago, you know, I used your system. I didn't have quite a system I got out, I just quit. And I started over, which is where we're at today. So very well said, You guys get this book. Why don't you go ahead and tell them really quick again, about where they get it. And all your info, and then we'll get this wrapped up?Yeah, cool. So it's called more money less hustle. If you're watching a video of any sort, this is what it looks like. And becoming the seven figure real estate agent. It's available on amazon.ca and amazon.com. It's, you know, physical book and Kindle. Hopefully soon, I'm going to record the audio book in about 10 days. So that'll also be coming out in a couple of months. But yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited about it. And so far, the feedback has been amazing.Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing. Folks. This isn't always about selling houses. It's about running a business. You guys need help with that. Check out this book. Get it the call, just check out our other stuff. She's got a really cool service and listening labs and you guys can listen labs.com I believe is the website for that. But yeah, we appreciate guys watching another episode or listening to another episode of real estate marketing dude, check us out. Leave us some reviews, follow us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and call me. Let us help you script and edit these videos. This isn't rocket science. We take all that grunt work out and she started teed me up for this because editing your own videos and distributing them and really creating content is a waste of your time. It's not a money making activity. And it is something that you should outsource to real estate marketing dude. If you guys are interested in that, please visit our website at real estate marketing do.com or estate marketing do.com And we'll see you guys next week. Thank you. Bye. Thank you for watching another episode of the real estate marketing dude podcast. If you need help with video or finding out what your brand is, visit our website at WWW dot real estate marketing dude.com We make branding and video content creation simple and do everything for you. So if you have any additional questions, visit the site, download the training, and then schedule time to speak with a dude and get you rolling in your local marketplace. Thanks for watching another episode of the podcast. We'll see you next time.

On May 2nd I reached a new decade of my life.  I turned 70! And I am excited to explore this new chapter in my life.  I invite you to learn how to age gracefully.Website: reggieweber.comFacebook:  reggieweberInstagram: reggie.retreats#coachreggie #aginggracefully #wisdom&freedom

Who is James?James Bolle is helping small business owners attract the best team members and make them more loyal, engaged and motivated by inspiring them to discover Purpose - and live it authentically. Key Takeaways1. We live in a society where there's this kind of culture around leadership, they might believe that it's just about them. And they believe that they can come in and engage their team through sheer force of personality. So they're going to try and inspire everybody individually, they think it's up to them to provide perks to provide meaning to everybody, they think it's all down to them. And it's just not sustainable.2. The fundamental problem is that they're working in an environment where they don't believe that what they do matters, the only people that benefit from their success are the people that own the business. And the only benefit that's delivered to them is that they get richer. So the fundamental underlying problem doesn't get solved by these solutions.3. We define purpose as having four 'A's, an authentic aspirational call to action for an organisation and its stakeholders that advances the cause outside the organisation. So when you pursue your purpose, when you run your business day to day, you benefit other people just by doing your business and purpose can make people 30% more productive. 40% more engaged three times more loyal, it can attract customers to your business, it can attract the right team members to your business.Valuable Free Resource or Actionhttps://www.prpsfl.com/purposequizA video version of this podcast is available on YouTube : and on linkedin : https://www.linkedin.com/posts/stuartwebb_james-runs-prpsfl-to-help-small-business-activity-6869004903658991616-jfZL————————————————————————————————————————————-Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletterFind out more about being a guest at : link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguestSubscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcastHelp us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at  apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:1. Download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/1pageIt's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way2. Join The Complete Approach Facebook Group :  https://TCA.fyi/fb Connect with like-minded individuals who are all about growth and increasing revenue. It's a Facebook community where we make regular posts aimed at inspiring conversations in a supportive environment. It's completely free and purposely aimed at expanding and building networks.3. Join our Success to Soar Program and get TIME and FREEDOM. : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Success-to-SoarIf you're doing 10-50k a month right now: I'm working with a few business owners like you to change that, without working nights and weekends. If you'd like to get back that Time and still Scale, check the link above.4. Work with me privatelyIf you'd like to work directly with me and my team to take you from 5 figure to 6 and multi 6 figure months, whilst reducing reliance on you. Click on https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/DiscoveryCall  tell me about your business and what you'd like to work on together, and I'll get you all the details._________________________________________________________________________________________________TranscriptNote, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)Stuart Webb 0:22 Hi again and welcome to It's not rocket science five questions over coffee. I'm standing by with my coffee, which is in my beer mug today. And James, I think you've got some water there in front of you.James Bolle 0:34 So we're water from a plastic cricket ground. Yeah.Stuart Webb 0:38 We're ready to go James Welcome to it's not, it's not rocket science by questions of COVID. James, it runs a consultancy organisation called purposeful. And you'll see that slightly differently spelt to the way in which it's spelt in the dictionary later on. But purposeful is an organisation which gets people to under stand, how their organisation builds purpose into what they're doing, so that they can retain stuff, etc. So we're gonna have a fascinating discussion. And James, welcome to the podcast.James Bolle 1:08 Thank you for having me, Stuart. It's great to be here.Stuart Webb 1:10 Terrific. Well, let's start with the the first question I always start with what's the, what's the the problem that you're trying to solve in your ideal client.James Bolle 1:19 So when I think about my ideal client, I actually picture somebody who I helped before. And I'm going to call him, Paul, because that's his real name. And Paul is a as a leader of a team, he has a team of 15 people. In this case, he's actually the managing director of a computer games company, but he might be leader of the team in a services organisation or software business or recruiter, he might be a leader of a team in a larger manufacturing organisation, even but what he's got is a problem because he wants to be a good guy, he wants his team to be happy, not least, because it is taking up a lot of his time to manage and keep them happy. But he wants his team to be happy. He wants people to be living good lives, and he wants to be successful. But he's got a problem. People just aren't his hard work running the team. And actually, most of the time, the majority of his job is spent trying to lead his team to do things rather than actually growing his business or growing the team. People keep leaving, people need constant motivation to get anything done. The initiatives that He's launching, keep falling flat, people do them for a couple of days, and then fall back into old habits. And when he's not around, people either don't make any decisions, or even worse, they make the wrong ones things that aren't good for customers, things that aren't good for business. And pool just wishes that there was something to bring everybody together to make it slightly easier for him to run his team. So they can all get on the same page, and they can be more effective. And so that's the that's the challenge that the pool was facing. And I think it's a challenge that a lot of leaders will recognise when they hear.Stuart Webb 3:04 So what's the thing that Paul or hope or Pauline, or whoever has been trying to do to resolve that problem without getting out.James Bolle 3:14 But I think that's an important point. Stewart, it could be, it could be Paul, it could be Paula Paulo, however you want to however you want to pronounce it. And what Pauline, or Paula has been doing wrong is like many leaders, I mean, you see it and government surveys, there's lots and lots of small business owners lots and lots of team, they just feel like the performance of their team is going to inhibit their growth. And unfortunately, because we live in a society where there's this kind of culture around leadership, they might believe that it's just about them. And they believe that they can come in and engage their team through sheer force of personality. So they're going to try and inspire everybody individually, they think it's up to them to provide perks to provide meaning to everybody, they think it's all down to them. And it's just not sustainable. When you've got a team of 1015 people, you can't spend all of your time motivating everybody, you need to find something that enables them to motivate them selves from within. So the first the first challenge, or the first problem, the first mistake that poor will make is that she will try and solve everything herself that the other thing that she might do incorrectly is because one of the symptoms that she's dealing with here is the team don't seem happy. She may buy an app, or a perk scheme that on the surface should deal with some of the symptoms she's facing, but actually doesn't get to the underlying problems. So she might find a great system that enables them to get discounts or team to get discounts at Alton Towers, or to get access to a mindfulness app. So and then these things undoubtedly will make a small difference but don't to deal with the underlying fundamental challenge, which is that her team, in order to be satisfied in their lives and their work, want to feel like they're getting better at something that matters. And the fundamental problem is that they're working in an environment where they don't believe that what they do matters, the only people that benefit from their success are the people that own the business. And the only benefit that's delivered to them is that they get richer. So the fundamental underlying problem doesn't get solved by these, by these by these solutions that the poor poor undertakes.Stuart Webb 5:34 And that is a fiendishly difficult problem to sort of crack with papering over the surface, isn't it the, you know, the, I remember a very clear example of somebody in my past where they decided they could solve the problem by giving everybody a slightly better car, and they got a slightly better car, and for a week, they were happy, but then they started getting to the Yeah, but you know, now that car requires more fuel to make it go. So I need an increase in pay, because I'm spending more money on fuel because, and it became one of these sort of downward spirals and no matter how hard they tried, that was never the answer. There were always other problems that that encrypted sort of incidentally created around the edges.James Bolle 6:15 There always are more problems. And ultimately, if the only thing that you can fall back on to try and motivate people to work harder is money, there's always going to be somebody else that can pay better, better money or offer a package that that is more suitable for people, you need to enable them to find their intrinsic motivation for doing a fantastic job feed for your business and your customers. And a nice car helps being paid a lot of money helps, but it's it's window dressing, if the fundamentals are in place.Stuart Webb 6:46 Right. So I'm hoping that there's a solution to this and James, that you can sort of point us in the direction with a valuable free action or free resource that people listening at the moment can actually take and work through on their business.James Bolle 7:01 So if you accept the premise that what people want to be happy in their lives and to be motivated, just to feel like they're making progress, if something matters, what we need to do is show people that the work that they're doing matters in and of itself, not because it's making you money, not because it's making them money, but because it makes the world a better place. That is what I call purpose. And its purpose is a term that you will hear bandied around a lot purpose in in an extra in a nutshell, not in an extra that'd be weird. In a nutshell, purpose is this idea that the business the organisation you're working in, has a reason to exist beyond just making money. We define purpose as having four aces, an authentic aspirational call to action for an organisation and its stakeholders that advances the cause outside the organisation. It's authentic, is aspirational, action oriented, and it advances others. So when you pursue your purpose, when you run your business day to day, you benefit other people just by doing your business and purpose can make people 30% more productive. 40% more engaged three times more loyal, it can attract customers to your business, it can attract the right team members to your business. And organisations that authentically live a purpose are several times more likely to be profitable, and they grow more quickly than organisations that don't have purpose when it's authentically left. So the solution here is to focus on the benefit that your organisation delivers to society by being in business that helps you differentiate it helps you attract the right team members and attract the right customers and a virtuous circle grows. The challenge is, do you have purpose. And the free resource that I'm offering people today is my quiz. The my purpose quiz, which you can take on my website, which is coming down the bottom of the screen now as if by magic purposeful.com. That's PRPs fl.com/purpose quiz. You can complete that quiz. And it will help you to assess whether you have purpose today in your organisation in line with those forays. Is it authentically lift? does it drive action? Is it aspirational? And does it advance others? Once you've taken this quiz, we'll send you an email report to help you understand how you can maybe drive a more authentic purpose or improve the understanding of your purpose within your organisation and yield some of those great results that will solve your problem. Paul, Paula poorly of people leaving your organisation people not making the right decisions, people not working hard enough.Stuart Webb 9:44 Brilliant and as I said at the top, that is how you spell the name of your organisation isn't it? It's purposeful, but it's PRP SFL purposeful is just missing all of those that are really things that just get in the way and trip us up.James Bolle 9:59 Like Like profit led businesses vows a very 20th century steward we're worth we're trying to take them out wherever, wherever we can, also helps you to register a unique URL if you take them all out.Stuart Webb 10:12 So I guess you've come to this understanding through sort of having read and been influenced by a number of things. And so I'm gonna ask you that, what is the book or concept or programme that's influenced you or brought you to where you are today that you want to share with us, James?James Bolle 10:28 Well, this spark was really lit by Simon Sinek. Start with y, which came out in 2009. And I know that you're not surprised by that I suspect people watching this won't be surprised either. It's a very famous book, his TED talk, the Golden Circle is the third most watched TED talk of all time. Simon Sinek, in this book says people don't buy what you do, they don't even buy how you do they buy why you do it. There's not the book I'd recommend. However, the book I would recommend is his follow up, find your why. Which is a great guide to actually figuring out what your WHY might be his, you know, it's a book that has inspired me in how I talk with organisations and do so yeah, check out Simon Synnex. Find your why. Because there's lots of great tips in there to help you find a purpose for your organisation or for yourself personally.Stuart Webb 11:18 Brilliant. So, James, there is only one question left. And it's the question that I make sure that I've not had to do any research or thinking about which is, what's the question that you would have liked me to have asked you should we have had this conversation with on your terms? And please make sure as I often say to people, don't leave us in suspense, answer the question for us, as well. So, so the floor is yours to tell me what you would have liked me to have asked. And I'll marvel in the fact that we're probably a better question I could have thought of,James Bolle 11:49 well, I don't know that it will be a better questions do I mean, I like I like a good debate. And I would have liked you to ask me. Why does this? Why does this matter now? Like, why are people getting excited to this idea of purpose now? Because it, you know, I've talked about some of the business benefits of authentically living a purpose, an organisation of the greater engagement, greater loyalty, greater motivation, greater productivity, these things are brilliant. But it's not why I'm inspired by purpose. I'm inspired by purpose, because in the UK, our productivity is completely stagnant. And there are lots and lots of people who do jobs to make money to pay for a lifestyle outside of work, they're just surviving, and they spend 910 hours a day, doing jobs that suck at their souls. And I firmly believe that we will reach a happier place as a society and in our communities, if we can find a way to connect people to the benefits that is brought to society in the jobs that they do. If you are happy at work, you go home, you're more likely to be happy with your family or with your friends, you're more likely to contribute positively to your society, your community and your local economy, you are more likely to be a good citizen. Having a job that 10 hours a day sucks the life out of you is torture. And I know there are some people who would love to have a job that pays them for 10 hours a day. And we should be grateful for the jobs we have. There are lots of people less fortunate than us, I appreciate that. But once you're in a job, you should be able to feel like you are making progress at something that matters. It is an aberration in modern society, that we have set up organisations whose only benefit whose only purpose is to make money for their owners. And actually, if we can connect people to the purpose of their jobs, and make them feel more connected, and that they matter more, we are going to get a happier society by default. And that's why that's why we should do this, our society will be better. And I think we have a moral obligation actually, as leaders and as business owners, to show the people we're working with that they matter, and that we are making the world a better place as we work. And I'll be honest, most 21 year olds coming into the workplace believe that as well today, and so you need to get on this bandwagon now. lest you be left behind. I really think we can. We are at a crossroads and we can together make our country a better place to live. And that's why I think it really matters now.Stuart Webb 14:31 I think it's an interesting point change and I will only add to it that I think too many leaders of organisations or team leaders, those calls and poor leaders that we've just discussed to perhaps forget that the people who are working in the organisation run perfectly good organisations when they leave the office floor or wherever they go. Because at home, they run church groups, they run Scout groups they run family budgets that balance they're capable of resolving difficulties within The scout group. And yet, whenever you ask them, you know, to take on responsibility at work, they'll go, well, that's not what I'm paid to do, you know, we've don't tap into the latent talent of people because we don't inspire that purpose within them, do we, we allow that latent talent to just be left at the factory gate. And all of that, that they bring with them, there's personal points that they could actually contribute to work is left at the factory gate, because they don't believe the purpose that they're serving is enough to inspire them to bring all of that to the fore and say, I'll take a step up, I'll take on that I've done it before I've even if I'd haven't done it before. I know it's something I want to try. And we just don't, it's fine.James Bolle 15:40 You're absolutely right, because, subconsciously, the question that they're asking themselves, when you're asking themselves a problem is, I could do that. But the benefit of that will be maybe you get a slightly nicer car at the end of the year, or a faceless shareholder will get slightly richer, I don't really see why that would benefit anybody. And so you're relying on finding those people with personal pride and personal motivation to do it. And everybody has that personal motivation if we put them in the right circumstances. So yeah, I couldn't agree more.Stuart Webb 16:10 Brilliant. Listen, James, this has been a really fascinating discussion. And it's a fascinating topic. You're absolutely right, the people who are currently at university that we as business leaders need to grow our businesses in the next 10 years, are sitting there wondering what's going to inspire me to join your organisation less, we are going to come up with something other than you'll get a nice pension, which you know, let's face it is something they're probably thinking that's a long way down the road. And frankly, the world will have heated up by then and I won't be able to make use of it. Let's be honest with them. And let's start looking at things that we can say, we have got a purpose for you being here and it will benefit society will benefit the world. And let's drive at home. So James, thank you so much for your for your time today. Really appreciate the time you've had with us. If you would like listening to be able to join people like James alive to see the messages that they gave here on it's not rocket science five questions over coffee I do. Make sure that's the hand action that that we don't use anything else five questions over coffee. This is the need to go to go to https colon, forward slash forward slash TC a dot FYI, forward slash subscribe. That's TC a dot FYI, forward slash, subscribe, get on the mailing list. We send you an email on a Monday morning saying who's coming on this week? You got the time you can get on Listen, interact as necessary. James, thank you so much for being on. We wish you purposeful, all the best. And I look forward to speaking again to to your next week. Thanks very much. Thanks, Jeff. Bye Get full access to It's Not Rocket Science! at thecompleteapproach.substack.com/subscribe

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BGBS 065 | Marlo Vernon | CarePenguin | You Just Have to Go For ItMarlo Vernon is a recent graduate from CU's Leeds School of Business and the CEO of CarePenguin, an IoT business created to aid in the care of older adults living independently. After doing time as an international model and squirrel caregiver, she found her true passion in entrepreneurship. As Marlo's father is her co-founder and CTO, Marlo has delighted in the fact that now the tables are turned, and she can finally order him around. In this episode, you'll learn…What it's like to build a business as a young, female entrepreneur It doesn't matter if you don't have all the answers yet. Have the confidence to go for it and learn as you grow. Have the resolve and confidence to prove your worth, even when others don't believe in your vision like you do ResourcesWebsite: carepenguin.com LinkedIn: Marlo Vernon Twitter: @marlovernon Instagram: marlo_vernon Facebook: Marlo Vernon Quotes[32:30] The hardest thing is I have no idea what I'm doing. But I feel like first-time entrepreneurs have no idea what they're doing. So I'm kind of just taking one obstacle at a time and trying to figure out, “Okay, what are we going to do here?” figure that out, get past it, and then move on to the next one. [34:23] A lot of young entrepreneurs that I know are kind of caught up in this startup buzz where they love to talk about starting a company but they kind of just go from pitch competition to pitch competition and they do accelerator after accelerator, and at some point, you just have to build your company. You just have to do it. [34:54] For women entrepreneurs, I would say just be confident and if you don't know everything, just go for it anyway. Podcast TranscriptMarlo Vernon 0:02 When I was at CU, the new venture challenge the big pitch competition. The year before I competed, my really good friend competed with a very similar product to mine. And he ended up winning the whole thing. And then I showed up with this product that I had been working on. I had tons of market research, I talked to 100 people in the space. I had people sign up to be beta testers. And I was met with like, a lot of criticism, and like skepticism, and I barely made it past the first round, and then didn't make it any further in the competition. And I just thought that was interesting that an engineer, that's a man won the whole competition and then the next year I show up with a product that's further along. And the only difference I can really spot is that I'm a woman. Marc Gutman 1:03 podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Back story. We're talking about hot water. IoT. That's Internet of Things, an aging parents. But before we get to that, I need you. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. If you haven't reviewed, we have little IoT sensors, monitoring your podcasts and telling us who isn't reviewing. So get on it. Now let's get on with the show. Today's guest is Marlo Vernon international model. First time SAS founder and CEO Marlo Vernon is all those things. But currently, She is the founder and CEO of CarePenguin, the business she created while in college to aid in the care of older adults living independently as Marlowe's father is her co founder and CTO Marlo has delighted in the fact that now the tables are turned and she can finally order him around. Marlowe's journey is a little different than those we normally feature on Baby got backstory. But that's why I wanted her on the show. She's just getting started already crushing it. And there's a lot to learn from the next generation of entrepreneurs. And this is her story. All right, I am here with Marlo Vernon, the founder and CEO of CarePenguin Marlowe. Welcome. Marlo Vernon 3:15 Thank you. Thanks for having me. Marc Gutman 3:18 How does that sound when you hear someone in a radio voice say Marlo Vernon founder and CEO of CarePenguin. Marlo Vernon 3:29 I love it. It's music to my ears. It's really weird because my resume is like marketing intern marketing in turn CEO. So big, big difference there. Marc Gutman 3:41 Well, for those of you that can't think that it could happen over night, it certainly can. In Marlowe's case. So that's, that's pretty awesome. And so before we get into it, what is CarePenguin. Marlo Vernon 3:54 So CarePenguin is an IoT device and service that non invasively monitors the well being of older adults living independently by monitoring their activity through water use. So are we have a sensor that connects to the hot water pipe coming out of a water heater. And whenever someone turns on a faucet anywhere in the house, we can detect that activity. And then our app allows adult children or caregivers to look at the last time their loved one was active and check in without being invasive of their privacy and then they can receive alerts if there is a lack of activity. So it's a lot it's a lot less invasive than like cameras or motion sensors, that type of thing. Marc Gutman 4:44 Yeah, and I was looking on your website earlier today. And this whole concept actually blows my mind a bit because my father is getting older. He just moved to Colorado welcome bad. You know he's in his own apartment and stuff like that, but worry about him. And I know the traditional way is to have a wearable device or something like that, that perhaps you can either track or, or, or your loved one can can signal. But like, how in the world? Did you think of using water as the the measuring device or the metric because like, that just blows my mind that that that is the way that you're able to keep track of, of the customers that you're serving? Marlo Vernon 5:30 Yeah, so actually, I started this business with my dad. So a few years ago, we were kind of like tinkering around with IoT devices. And we came up with this sensor to just see if someone's home by measuring their water use, and it ended up working really well. And we, at the same time, my grandparents on both sides, were starting to get older, and starting to worry about them more. So we kind of thought, wow, this would actually be a really great way to see if my grandparents are okay. It seems to be like a great proxy for human behavior, because water, like hot water specifically is something that is only activated when someone takes an action. So we kind of came up with that. And then when I went to see you and took an entrepreneurship class, I started exploring this idea more. And the more I researched on, like this market and talking to my parents, my parents friends, this was like a huge problem. And so, and this seems like such a simple but comprehensive solution. So Marc Gutman 6:48 yeah, and let's let's get back to that water thing. Like why water? Like, what is it about water? What spoke to you about water? Did you try other things, in terms of attaching a sensor was it always about this idea of hot water, Marlo Vernon 7:01 it was kind of always about the idea of hot water, we we also have other ideas of like, refrigerator door lights, like sound sensors. But this seemed so simple. And it's only one sensor that detects activity throughout the entire house. So you'd spend five minutes attaching it to your water pipe. And then you can see activity in the kitchen and the bathrooms. And it's a lot easier than putting like motion sensors all over and like motion sensors, if you have like animals that will set it off. And water just seemed like a direct correlation between human activity and, and water. Marc Gutman 7:49 I'm so fascinated by that. Is anyone else doing that right now? Or is this unique to CarePenguin the way that you're approaching it. Marlo Vernon 7:56 So there are some other companies that are doing like flow meters, but they're, they're more in the market of catching leaks. And they're a lot more expensive. But what CarePenguin does actually is measure the temperature of the pipe so we don't measure flow of water. And that's part of what makes it so simple. And so, so much cheaper. No, you don't have to like mess with the plumbing or anything. You literally just attach it to the pipe. And then it takes the temperature of the pipe. And whenever someone uses water, the temperature of that pipe spikes way up indicating that someone's active. Marc Gutman 8:36 Yeah. And you'd mentioned something earlier about you're like, yeah, and my dad, we were just tinkering around, and we came up with this idea. So let's take a step back in time was young Marlowe, I mean, Was this something that you were always interested in? Were you always interested in the internet of things? Were you always interested in app development as a when you're when you were younger? Marlo Vernon 9:01 Um, when I was younger, I wanted to be a fashion designer. And then I quickly realized I didn't care about fashion. Um, but no, I grew up with my dad. He's a serial entrepreneur. So I grew up with him talking about business at the dinner table every single night. Were Marc Gutman 9:26 you into that? Were you into that? Or was that more of like, more of an IRA? Oh, here it goes, daddy. Marlo Vernon 9:32 No, I thought I thought was kind of interesting. And I like the idea of like running your own business. And my dad is big on culture at his businesses. So a lot of times he would talk about like all the fun things that were happening at work, and then also like the stressful things like raising money, so I kind of got to hear it all. And but it's kind of funny because one time we went to Disneyland and my dad was like, taking calls on Like the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad. So I was very used to him like always working and always talking about his business. And then when I got to high school, I started taking marketing classes. And I was always like really quiet in school. I never participated never have like, raised my hand or anything. But then once I started taking these business classes in high school, I realized I already like knew everything just from listening to my dad talk, as I was growing up, and I became super confident and like, spoke up. And yeah, I felt felt way more confident in those classes and felt like this was this is what I was meant to do. So that's kind of when I started realizing I wanted to be an entrepreneur. Marc Gutman 10:48 But that still wasn't your path. So right, you left, you got high school, and you still had dreams of being in that in that fashion industry to some degree, you want to talk about that a little bit. Marlo Vernon 11:02 Yeah. So at the same time, I was also modeling. I started modeling in Denver, when I was 15. Just kind of for fun. And then, when I was seven, seen, I signed a contract with a modeling agency in New York. And after I graduated from high school, I went to New York to model and my dad was not into that he, he basically said, You have one year to do this, and then you're going to college. And so I took it and it ended up being great, like that year was was really great. But then after a year, I was definitely ready to go to college. Marc Gutman 11:45 And so you came back and and having that experience of living in New York and coming back to college. What did you study in school, Marlo Vernon 11:55 I studied marketing at the Leeds School of Business at CU, Marc Gutman 11:58 and how'd you feel about that program? Marlo Vernon 12:01 It was great. I loved C, you loved the marketing program. They're all my professors were awesome. The only thing about it, though, was it's very, like every all the professors were like brand managers like Procter and Gamble, or something. And a lot of our classes were like, how to make the world's best toothbrush. And I was just like, I don't think I'm ever going to use this, I've always kind of been more into tech, like getting into tech. So my internships have kind of helped helped with that, learn more about marketing in the tech space, but I felt like C provided a really great foundation. And then I also got an entrepreneurship certificate at CU, which was also really great. I took about three entrepreneurship classes. So Marc Gutman 12:51 what's that I'm not familiar with the entrepreneurship certificate. How does that work? Marlo Vernon 12:55 Um, I think it's just you take three different classes like entrepreneurial environments, entrepreneurial finance, and then new venture creation. And that's, that's a I'm not really sure how that's different from mining and entrepreneurship or majoring in entrepreneurship. But that's what I did. Marc Gutman 13:14 Got it. And so you mentioned you came out, you had a few marketing internships, and you were checking out the business landscape, but your entrepreneurial father and you were tinkering with this idea. And so at what point did you take it from tinkering to actually making something with actually making something that was concrete and potentially a product and then a business? Yeah, so Marlo Vernon 13:40 in fall of 2019, I took this new venture creation class, and we had to kind of explore these business ideas and try to build this business as much as we could within the semester. And so I decided to work on this. It's something like my dad and I have always thought about but never really had the chance to explore more. So I picked it up and started working on it. And then during that time, I really did a ton of like, customer validation. So me and my team, we probably talked to about 100 people, about their elderly parents, how they care for them, like learned a lot about that kind of thing, older adults and their needs. And that's when I learned that like this was such a huge problem. And everyone seemed really excited about this idea. And then I pitched at the end of the semester and like won the the class pitch competition. What does Marc Gutman 14:46 that mean? Like Like when you win the class pitch competition like what what does that mean? Marlo Vernon 14:51 It only means you get an A and basically, we all worked on this. We all worked on ours. ideas. I think there were like five ideas or seven, I think there were seven teams. And mine was one of them. And at the end of the semester, they brought in, like, I don't know, like invest, not real investors, but I'm not really sure who they were. But we pitched to them. And then I ended up winning and got an A, but then I moved on. Cu has this big pitch competition in the spring called new the new venture challenge. And I think like, over 100 teams participate in this. And then the winner gets $100,000. And I didn't, I didn't make it past the second round. But then I ended up starting the company myself and raising the same amount of money anyways, that I would have won. So it all ended up working out for me. But, but anyways, um, yeah. So then after the new venture challenge, and everything and losing, I kind of was like mad, and I was like, I'm going to show them. So I. So I went full on when I graduated, and really started the company. And that's kind of when my dad joined. And at first he was like, oh, I'll just help you, like write the app for it. And then we it just grew and grew. And he got more invested. And it got more real. And we started improving on the hardware improving on the software. So it really became like a real thing last May when I graduated. Marc Gutman 16:40 And was at that time, did it have the name CarePenguin? Marlo Vernon 16:43 Yeah, yeah, I named it CarePenguin back back in November of 2019. And it was kind of funny, because I was trying to figure out a name for this project for my entrepreneurship class. And at the time, I didn't think I would turn it into like a real company. And so I was kind of like googling names. And like doing those, like company name generators and stuff online. And there's like this one website that gives you like, a name logo. And I was like, browsing one of those, and I saw CarePenguin. And I was like, Oh, I really like that. But it costs like 30 $300 like for the domain and for the logo. And I was like, well, this isn't like a real thing. So I just named it CarePenguin made my own logo. And then in May when we decided to, like, actually make this a real business, I had to like finally buy like the Caribbean Quinn calm for like 30 $300. Marc Gutman 17:50 That's a good way to do it. proof of concept before you invest in the domain. Marlo Vernon 17:54 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Marc Gutman 17:55 So you decided to start the business? And so I mean, what's it like working with your father, I don't talk to a lot of entrepreneurs that have that experience. I mean, talk a little bit about that. Marlo Vernon 18:07 Um, it's actually really great. I love working with my dad, he is the best mentor we live together. And, but it's kind of funny because he's like 57 years old. And he can learn how to write an iPhone app super easily and just whip out an iPhone app. But trying to get him to understand how to use like Google calendar is like such a struggle. So that's been pretty funny. Also, slack. I'm very proud that I got him on slack. Because when he was the CEO of Victor Ops, like he refused to slack he only used email. So that's been a big win for us. Marc Gutman 18:53 Yeah, well, you know, I do you know how to slack but I have to agree with him. Email is the killer app. Like why did we ever just move all our email into slack? Which is really just kind of like, weird email? Marlo Vernon 19:04 Yeah, no, I love slack. It's great. Marc Gutman 19:09 We use slack here too. So So I guess I gotta love it as well. A common question I get all the time is Mark, can you help me with our brand? Yes, we help companies solve branding problems. And the first step would be to schedule a no obligation brand clarity call, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email, we'll get you booked right away. So whether you're just getting started with a new business, or whether you've done some work and need a refresh, or whether you're a brand that's high performing and wants to stay there, we can help. After you book your brand clarity call. You'll learn about our brand audit and strategy process. we'll identify if you need a new logo or just a refresh, will determine if your business has a branding problem. And you'll see examples of our work and get relevant case studies. We'll also see if branding is holding your business back, and can help you get to the next level. So what are you waiting for? Build the brand you've always dreamed of. Again, we'll link to that in the show notes, or head over to wildstory.com and send us an email. Now back to the show. So you started the business, you have a name, like what are those early days of the business look like? I mean, did you have any customers? Marlo Vernon 20:44 No, we had people that were willing to be beta testers. So we had, we had like, testers throughout the whole thing. So first, we had this dinky little prototype that we probably put in like five people's homes, just to make sure that the data was accurate. And a big misconception that we kept getting in the early days was that older adults don't use water. Like, we were getting this all the time, like, Oh, this wouldn't work for my parent, because they don't use water. And we were like, I don't think that's true. So we started putting these sensors in my parents, friend's parents houses. And everyone was surprised because they use way more water than they thought they use water like seven to 10 times a day. So it was actually really great. So that was something we had to overcome was, and we still get that question to this day of like, Oh, well, I'm not sure my parent uses water. So that's something we have to like, create, like marketing material on. But yeah, we had people that were willing to test. And then in the early days, it was kind of just about getting the sensor to a place that we could actually sell it. So we hired like a circuit board designer, industrial designer. And then we worked on the app and tried to get the app to a place that people could use it. And we literally just finished that. So yeah, very cool. Marc Gutman 22:23 And so what was the process? you'd mentioned that you went out new, raised, raised money? Had you ever done that before? What did that look like for you? Marlo Vernon 22:32 No, I've never done that. before. It was good. My, my dad has been guiding me through this entire thing. So he has like this, um, this presentation that he gives that TechStars called the how to start your startup. And so he was like, just look at that presentation and build your deck. So I use the template he had, I built a deck. And then we kind of refined it together. And then I'm super lucky to have his whole network. So he we kind of emailed like probably 25 of his friends, investor, friends, people just in the boulder startup scene and told them what we're working on. And if they wanted to invest in an angel round, like we would take a meeting with them. And then eight of them replied and said they'd like to hear me pitch and then all a ended up investing after hearing our pitch. So it ended up going really well. It was kind of funny, though, because I was sitting on like, these calls with my dad, and I'm pitching and he's kind of just sitting there watching me. And after we get off the call, he just like, makes fun of me and is like laughing at all these like stupid things I said. And, um, because I get to the end of the pitch and then instead of being like, Alright, like, are you in like, we'd love to have you invest? I'd kind of just be like, all right, so thank you and my dad's like, are you singing? Or are you trying to close a deal? And so I've, I've often felt like Bambi trying to like walk for the first time through these like investor calls and stuff. And I'm just amazed at how like, easily my dad can just like, talk to people. It sounds kind of silly, but Marc Gutman 24:36 Well, clearly you're doing something right because you had a all eight offered to invest. So so you're obviously pitching quite well. First time CEO, young in your business career. Yep. A woman in tech. Like, yeah, yeah. What's hard about that? You know, it doesn't you know, it seems like it may be fraught with pitfalls and challenges, like, what do you find hard about, about being a first time CEO and a woman in tech? Marlo Vernon 25:09 Yeah, I feel like, kind of before my dad got involved, like, when I tell people about my idea, they'd be like, oh, like, that's cute. But like, what jobs are you applying for are like, Oh, this is just a school project, right? And I was like, No, like, I'm truly working on this, like, as a company, and like, people just kind of, don't believe you or don't think you can do it. But then kind of once my dad got involved, people started taking me more seriously. And then also, when I was at See you, the new venture challenge the big pitch competition, I thought it was interesting, because the year before I competed, my really good friend competed with a very similar product to mine. And he ended up winning the whole thing, he won the 100 grand, and he is man and an engineer. And then I show up at the competition the next year. Everyone knows who he is. They give him tons of praise. And then I showed up with this product that I had been working on. I had tons of market research, I had talked to 100 people in the space, I had people sign up to be beta testers. And I was met with like, a lot of criticism, and like skepticism, and I barely made it past the first round. And Ben didn't make it any further in the competition. And I just thought that was interesting that an engineer, like that's a man, like won the whole competition. And then the next year, I show up with a product that's further along. And the only difference I can really spot is that I'm a woman majoring in marketing. So that was kind of I don't know, that's kind of interesting. Marc Gutman 27:06 Yeah. How's that make you feel? Marlo Vernon 27:08 It kind of sucks, especially since I had like the, like, all the research to prove that this was gonna be a great idea. And I had the prototype in my hands. So that kind of sucked. But also, these pitch competitions are kind of funny, because the judges they're bringing in, it's like, Jake from State Farm. It's like who you're pitching to, it seems they don't really understand SAS businesses anyway, I don't think like in one round, like, a girl making cookies beat me. And I was just like, Are you kidding me? But I think I think it's just because like they, they understand cookies, but they don't understand like a SaaS business. So I don't know what it is. But Marc Gutman 27:58 so like, what, what are your friends doing for work right now? I mean, are they all CEOs of tech companies, startup tech companies? Or what's going on? Like, what are they like? What do you think about your role? Marlo Vernon 28:09 My friends are awesome. They're killing it. One of my friends works at Goldman Sachs, one of my friends works at KPMG. She just passed her CPA exams. And then a couple more of my friends just nailed some jobs I and then a lot of my girlfriends are like super smart, super ambitious, working in like finance and accounting, which I have no passion for. But then I also have a group of friends who are like my startup friends. So we've been in like, and startup summer programs together. And we go out to drinks once a month. And we all talk about our startups. So that's really fun. We just had drinks actually last Friday, but they're all they're all guys. I'm the only girl in all of my entrepreneurship classes in all my entrepreneurship, like summer programs, is very interesting. I'm not sure why there's not more girls. Marc Gutman 29:16 Yeah. You don't have any thoughts as to why there's not more women in those programs. Marlo Vernon 29:22 I don't. Yeah, I don't know. I think I think men are cockier and they're like very confident. And like their idea and their eye and their ability and I think women are a little like not as much like that. I don't know but I just I just wish they were Marc Gutman 29:44 well, maybe maybe after CarePenguin that's your next your next ambition is you can work on getting more women into these these types of programs. And so so yeah, where is chair penguin today, as far as you guys have customer is are you actively selling the product? Marlo Vernon 30:03 Yes, we are actively selling we just released the product to paying customers a week and a half ago. So, yes, that has it's been fun to watch the customers roll in. I think we have about 10 right now. And then we have about 15 active beta testers. So it's going great. I'm nervous because I'm the whole tech support team right now. So I'm the head of marketing, head of tech support raiser of money. So I got a lot going on right now. Marc Gutman 30:38 But I was just about to ask you that. What does a typical day in the life of CEO Marlo Vernon look like? But you kind of just shared it? Is there anything else that you're working on? Or what a typical day looks like for you? Marlo Vernon 30:51 Yeah, it's pretty much answer emails from customers or beta testers check in. And then probably like, post a blog post on social media, have a meeting with my co founders about like, what's going on. And then at the end of the day, when the customers roll in, I take a bunch of CarePenguin boxes to the post office and mail them. So that's a typical day for me. Marc Gutman 31:21 And what's the future look like? for CarePenguin? Where do you hope to be in what's that look like for you. Marlo Vernon 31:27 Um, so our goal is to be like the platform for elderly home care. And right now, we just have this sensor for water use, but we want to expand into a whole suite of sensors. So like, I don't know, a sensor for your refrigerator door, or a sound sensor, or there's already kind of a lot of things like that out there, like refrigerators now connect to Wi Fi, like we have a crock pot that connects to Wi Fi. I'm not sure if anyone needs that. But we really want to do this sensor fusion thing where we take all of these bits of data from different devices in the house, to get a better picture of someone's health and activity living alone. And kind of be like the platform for that. So that is our goal. Marc Gutman 32:22 And what's the hardest thing for you right now as the CEO is you're trying to build this company and steer the ship. Marlo Vernon 32:30 Yeah, the hardest thing is, I have no idea what I'm doing. Um, but I feel like most entrepreneurs, like first time entrepreneurs have no idea what they're doing. So I'm kind of just taking one obstacle at a time and trying to figure out, Okay, what are we going to do here, figure that out, get past it, and then move on to the next one. Right now, we're wondering how we're going to market our product to everyone, and we'd love to get on Shark Tank, that would be our that would be our goal. But I also don't think I can handle the tech support for 100,000 orders if we got on Shark Tank. So we're trying to, we're trying to figure all of that out and raise money and decide what the what the next step is there. So yeah, we're trying to we're trying to figure all of that out right now. Marc Gutman 33:28 All right, is you think about where you've come so far, in your journey? Do you have any advice that you would give to other up and coming entrepreneurs, especially maybe female entrepreneurs who are trying to find their way? Marlo Vernon 33:44 Yeah, I would say, definitely, like, do a lot of research on your industry. Like, I feel like I'm kind of an expert of like, elderly care now, which I never thought I'd be. And like, all the companies in this space, and as well as like IoT companies, and because I think a big problem with being so young is people people doubt you, but if they ask you questions, and you, you seem to be an expert on it, then that that's really good for you. Um, another piece of advice I'd give is, I feel like a lot of young entrepreneurs like that I know are kind of caught up in like this startup buzz where they love to talk about starting a company but like building a company like not so much as they kind of just like go from pitch competition to pitch competition, and they do accelerator after accelerator, and it's kind of like at some point, you just have to like, build your company. You just have to do it. And then for women entrepreneurs, I would say just just be confident and like if you don't know it, Everything, just just go for it anyways, because I heard this like fact that when men are applying for jobs, if they don't meet, like every requirement, they still apply. And when women are applying for jobs, if they look at it and they don't meet every requirement, then they don't apply. So I think you should just like have confidence in yourself know that you can do it and just just go for it. Marc Gutman 35:28 Fantastic. Where can people find out more and learn more about CarePenguin? Marlo Vernon 35:33 they can go to CarePenguin.com and learn more. They're on our websites. And it's available to purchase now. So if you think you'd benefit from it, you can buy a monthly or an annual subscription. Marc Gutman 35:49 Perfect. Marlo, thank you so much for coming on the show enjoyed our conversation. Marlo Vernon 35:55 Yes. Thank you so much for having me. It was awesome. Marc Gutman 36:03 And that is Marlo Vernon. Wow, I am so impressed with Marlowe's drive, and leadership, but also her view on what it takes to be successful. She knows that building businesses is hard that sometimes it's not fun. But that's what building a business is all about. I have no doubt that Marlowe and Kara penguin are going to achieve great things. We'll make sure to keep you updated with their progress. Side note, Marlowe's father, the one she talks about throughout the episode. Not that there are other fathers, you know what I mean? was one of the co founders what I like to call my first real job, a company outside of Boulder called rain dance. Marlowe mentions culture and how important it is to him and all I can say is that company attracted and introduced me to some of the most incredible people in my life. If you're a rain dance alum, you know what I mean? There was just something special in that culture there. Since then, her father Todd has gone on to start and exit from multiple companies. And there's no question where Marlo gets her entrepreneurial influence from the big thank you to Marlo Vernon and the team at Kara penguin. you're well on your way. And dad if you're listening my dad, we need to get you a CarePenguin sensor. We will link to all things Marlo and CarePenguin in the show notes. If you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line the podcast at wildstory.com our best guests like Marlowe come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS see you'll never miss an episode. A lot of big stories and I cannot lie. you other storytellers can't deny. ‍

4/18/2021

BGBS 060: Tim Parr | CADDIS | Own Your Age Aging. Most of us try our best to slow it down. But can you blame us? How do we learn to embrace our age in a society that trains us to want to feel 15 years younger than we are? Tim Parr's company, CADDIS, is challenging those standards and redefining what it is to “age” in contemporary culture. CADDIS has a refreshing take on aging, rallying around the notion that it is absolutely right to be the age that you are, and beyond that, they demand that you own it. Tim definitely knows what he's doing, but don't take it from us. Brands such as Patagonia, L.L. Bean, Filson, Burton, and many more have trusted his methods and guidance on big issues that steer ships over long periods of time. He has also conducted lectures at the Stanford School of Design, the San Francisco Academy of Art, and the California College of Arts. Before CADDIS, it all began with the founding of the iconic bike brand, Swobo. We also can't forget touring with Tim's Bluegrass band throughout the Western US and how learning guitar was an essential influence for CADDIS's messaging today. This episode celebrates the irreverence of 80s Thrasher magazines and emphasizes selling the message more than the product (though this product speaks for itself! I mean, check out the top of these rims). You'll learn lots about building a brand in this episode, but if you forget it all, make sure you remember this: The fun lies in changing people's minds. Quotes [0:02] I think developing some type of talent as you recognize your passions is super important. If you just blindly go after your passions, I think it's a good way to get hurt. [8:45] It felt punk rock. It was like, okay, we're going after a taboo subject matter that freaks the hell out of people. That seems like fun. And we'll create this house called Age and the reading glasses are the door prize. Join our club and here's your badge, which became the glasses. [12:19] The dusted over, unsexy categories? That's where the gold lies. [17:37] I attribute a lot of how I was wired to the early 80s, Thrasher magazine…I viewed that as communication. And it was visual communication in a way that was very new. It was that irreverent part that that didn't really exist before that. It was irreverence meets punk rock meets some form of street culture, fashion, all wrapped up into that magazine. [19:20] I remember going through old W magazines and Vogues and the rest of them when I was like 10 years old and just rapidly flipping through because I didn't care about the content, I cared about some type of communication… At the time I just thought, what were the hidden easter eggs inside this medium, to where I can get knowledge of what's happening? [25:38] I don't know if we go into it trying to be the cool kids. That might be a byproduct of it. Or a semi-intended consequence. I have to just think it just boils down to: it's just more fun. And then when you really kind of peel away the onion on it, it's more profitable. Because there's less people doing it, which makes it a whitespace. [48:12] There's no easy path. It doesn't matter what it is or what gifts you have, they're all hard. Resources Website: caddislife.com Instagram: @caddis_life LinkedIn: Tim Parr Facebook: @caddislife Music Farming Nonprofit: musicfarming.org Podcast Transcript Tim Parr 0:02 I think developing some type of talent as you recognize your passions is super important. If you just blindly go after your your passions, I think it's a good way to get hurt. So for some reason, and it goes back to those, as you recognize it does early 80s, Thrasher magazines and you know, for the for most of my life I've been stewing on what works and what doesn't work when you're talking to people through this particular medium. Marc Gutman 0:37 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Backstory, we're talking about readers. That's right. Those cheap glasses you buy at Walgreens the supermarket when you get older and can't see so good. Well, not exactly those readers. We're talking about cool rock and roll readers. Trust me, you'll love it. And before we change your perception on what readers are and who they are for, here's a gentle reminder. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Does anyone really listen to this and review us over at Apple podcasts and Spotify? Probably not. So let's get on with the show. Today's guest is Tim Parr. Tim has both founded new companies as well as worked for some of the most respected brands in the lifestyle industries, brands such as Patagonia or being filson. Burton, and many more have trusted his methods and guidance on big issues that steer ships over long periods of time. In his conducted lectures at the Stanford School of Design, the San Francisco Academy of Art in the California College of Arts. It all began with the founding of the iconic bike brand Swobo. And then, as Tim puts it, elevated the shoveling Yak manure with Yvon Chouinard, the Patagonia throwing some years as a touring bluegrass musician, and now he has founded CADDIS, the brand that will redefine what it is to age in contemporary culture. CADDIS is a unique brand, because they're making readers cool. They're helping their community to own their age. And this topic is especially resonant with me, as I think about age. I have an ageing father. And that gets me thinking about my own age a lot lately. And the truth is, I've never felt the right age. When I was young, I wanted to be old. And as I get older, as we all do, I want to be younger. I think it's about time that I hear Tim's message and own my age. Maybe it's a message you need to hear as well. Tim power has had quite a journey, always able to follow his passions and start businesses. I am fascinated by Tim's outlook on brand and business and I know you will be too. And this is his story. I am here with Tim Parr, the founder of CADDIS and Tim, let's let's get right into it. What is CADDIS? Tim Parr 3:55 CADDIS is a lifestyle brand that is specifically going after 45 to 65 year olds, which is a market that hasn't seen lifestyle marketing branding, go after them. And go after is the wrong term. I would say rally around is a better way to put it. Marc Gutman 4:16 Yeah. And to clarify a bit CADDIS also, I mean, you specialize at least your flagship product and your I see you're starting to branch out a bit but your flagship product, you're the product you started with readers, which is a very interesting kind of product to start with. Because I think the perception of readers as Walmart and old people and a lot of things, we can talk about that. But what really, I think is cool about this brand and I'd love to talk about it is right away right up front, you kind of you're not selling readers, you're selling this idea of owning your age and it being okay to grow older. And I can tell you personally, that's something that I struggle with. It's something that I have a really hard time with. And I think about a lot. So this idea of age is this is this something That's that's consumed You or been on your mind is as you start to grow older? Tim Parr 5:03 No, not at all. And in fact, it wasn't even prior to us selling anything, I was in the process of raising money. And before we had this clarity on on what we were really doing, which was what you just described, we were in the reader market. So, I mean, as a as a concept, and we were just, you know, we were selling cooler, hipper, and for terrible words to use, but they cut to the chase, reading glasses, you know, with a lifestyle marketing angle. That was the entirety of, of what we were selling. And then it wasn't until prior to that, we weren't selling anything. Up until this point, we were I had, I had six pairs of glasses, and I was trying to raise a little bit of money to get this thing off the ground. So I was in a meeting with someone in San Francisco, at a at a venture capital place, and the person is, you know, going to the gym stood the product, and everything was lining up perfectly. And on the back of our packaging, there's this quote, about aging, and just to own it, and they go, well, what's this, and I had literally just slapped it on there in the 11th hour, subconsciously, it seems like a good idea at the time to call people out about how they think about aging. But But we hadn't really delve into it. I go well, I just kind of think that people should own age. And they told me like, you can't do that. And everyone wants to believe that they're 15 years younger that they are, and this won't work, you can't do that. And meeting was over at that point, because of our position, which wasn't even a position at a time. It was it was some flipping copy that I wrote on the back and had it printed on the packaging. And then by the time I walked from that desk down to the street, it hit me like a ton of bricks. Like oh my god, like that's what we're doing. Like, we're not in the reading glass market. Like there's a whole much larger idea here. It was the first moment where I really found our why in our business, like why should we even matter? Like, why do we exist, and it feels just to cut different frames and put reading glass lenses in. It wasn't enough. And then by the time I hit the street, it was I had it like that this is the business that we're in, we're in the business of owning age, just like Patagonia owns corporate stewardship, or, you know, Casper owns sleep or a way owns travel. Like we're gonna own age. So that's where it that's basically where that's where it came from. Marc Gutman 7:58 Yeah. And it to this point, were you were you searching for that Why? Or like what was going on? Tim Parr 8:03 Yeah, but I didn't know it. Yes. It is on hindsight, because I wasn't like I was in it, but I wasn't fully bought into it. Like, okay, like this is a white space. Like the only product that's on the market is $10 garbage from Walgreens or CVS. We know we can do the design, we know we can do the marketing. We know we don't know. But we have a strong inclination that the market is there. We're not the only ones that feel this way about the product and the experience of buying the product. But it wasn't, it wasn't enough and there hadn't one foot in, and then after that meeting I had both feet in because at that point, it felt punk rock. Like it was like, okay, we're going we're going after a taboo subject matter that freaks the hell out of people. Like that seems like fun. And we'll we'll create this house called age. And the reading glasses are the are the door prize? You know, it's like, join our club. And here's your here's your here's your badge, which became the glasses. Marc Gutman 9:11 And so you said it wasn't working? Like tangibly what wasn't working for you? Like why? What was going on? Tim Parr 9:17 I don't, I didn't, because I didn't need to do it. And these things are hard. Let's be honest, they're really hard. Most of them don't work. You know, it's not my first one. It's like my third or fourth one. So and it was like okay, it was just that So what, you know, okay, so what so so you found a niche to sell more reading glasses, and it wasn't enough. And it again, remind you, I don't have this type of foresight. This is all looking backwards and I can evaluate what was going through me after the fact and I didn't have that that Big Picture, this is why we exist. We're going to own age and we're going to change how people feel about aging in an in this culture. Marc Gutman 10:11 And so you're walking out of that meeting, it hits you and and, you know, help me fill in the gaps if I'm if I'm not retelling the story. it hits you, it's like a lightning bolt. It's punk rock like, this is what we're selling. Like, how did you know that that was the thing to hold on to now and that this was what you were going to the market, you were about to enter? Tim Parr 10:33 Pattern recognition. So it was the thing that when I got that response from that person, who is a venture capitalist, who you know, has a very conservative, you know, point of view about a lot of stuff. And if I could get that reaction out of somebody, I can get a different reaction out of a subculture. So if if that person was so against that idea, if something tells me inside of me, I could tap into a crew, that would be the Yang to that ying. Marc Gutman 11:14 So who was the first person that you ran, and said, I got this and told this? Tim Parr 11:19 I remember, dialing my phone, because I had that we there is after, after I started, I grabbed four or five co founders with me to do the heavy lifting in the early days. So I remember running down the street in San Francisco and dialing each one of them saying, Okay, this is what we're doing now. And it was that it was a 50/50. I don't know. And all right, awesome. Sounds great. So yeah, I remember vividly. Marc Gutman 11:53 And so like why even readers? So you mentioned that this is, you know, you've had multiple experiences in starting businesses. We'll talk a bit about your past. I mean, you've had some great brand building experience in education, like of all the things, you know, and that you could have, you could have done like what, why readers? Tim Parr 12:11 That's exactly it's the, your reaction to it is exactly why you should do it. And so the dusted over unsexy categories. That's where the gold lies. Not the cool sexy categories. does sound kind of redundant, but I knew that's where the fun lies, is to change people's minds about things. So one, it's a product that people need. And it's a it's a, by definition, it is a medical device. So people need it. It's not like we were making another pair of denim jeans, or you know, something that you'd have to justify, you know, picking yet another pair for your closet or something. So there is there was that aspect to it. When I needed him, and I couldn't find anything that worked. So I wanted to create the ones that I wanted. And it just felt right, because everyone thought, you know, like, Who? Who cares about readers. And if you go back to my pass, like I had a stint in cycling, and it was the same thing. It was like we went up against a black lacquer short. So it was almost like it was doing it all over again. I had another foe to go against it, which was the crappy $10 only option at the moment. Marc Gutman 13:42 Yeah, and the way that I'm imagining it, and filling in the gaps of your story is that like you're at Walmart or something, and you're standing there looking at readers, and you're like, these things are messed up. And it's weird, like I you know, like, I don't have a lot of experience with readers. And so it's also confusing, you know, like, when I first became aware of your company, I was like, do I need readers? You know, like, how do they work? And there's like this magnification, there's this kind of like this weird thing around them. They're not, you know, I think I grew up where you you go to the optometrist, and you get glasses or whatever, you know, they tell you, you it's not like really the self diagnostic thing. And to your point, I think, to me, readers just seemed like this thing that you did, because maybe you couldn't afford glasses or like like, like it was like a stopgap or something. But that that's neither here nor there. Was this how it happened? Where you were you you mentioned, you needed readers, readers standing there in front of the display being like this thing. This is this is just messed up. Tim Parr 14:36 Yeah. And I don't wear glasses, normal eyewear until I need reading glasses. So the whole process of corrective eyewear, I had no clue. I didn't know how things get fixed. So I was down in Malibu and I was killing time. So I walk into this optometry shop. I'm like, I got this problem or I can't see and like oh yeah, you reading glasses, pick a frame. And we'll, you know, we'll figure out what you need. And we'll pop them in, we'll send it to you in 10 days or so. All right, I guess that's how it works. And I don't know. But I started looking at the frames I want and there's, you know, between 300-800. And then I had to wait like 10 days and long story short, I ended up getting nothing. And walking out of there just thinking something's broken here. And I asked the guy in the story go like, Is it true? Like, either I'm spending $10 at Walgreens? Or I'm spending $400 here? And is that kind of it? He goes, Oh, no, no, no. So he goes in the back of the store, pulls open a drawer, you know, it optometry store in Malibu, it's just like, you know, like a beautiful merchandise thing. The readers were all crammed into a drawer in the back. And they're like, purple and blue, and like cateye, and you know, they fold 800 different ways. And it goes, Well, you can choose from any of these. And, you know, those are like 40 bucks, or, like, really, like, That's it, I'm going to put these things on my face. And that's the spectrum of choice that I'm looking at. So it was like one of those classic situations where, you know, person needed thing thing didn't exist, go make the thing that you want. So that's, that's basically how it all started, was from that moment, and then did some homework and you know, reading glasses 90% of people in this country will need them at some point over the age of 40. Marc Gutman 16:39 That's a great stat when you're starting a business and looking for a target market. Tim Parr 16:44 Yeah, 90, 90% of people over 40. Marc Gutman 16:49 And that's my that's my case, you know, these are reading glasses. I don't wear them all the time I wear I'm in front of the computer. And exactly to your point. I mean, I felt like I had two options was Walgreens, so the optometrist and end up going to the optometrist. And here I could have been doing things a lot different. And so Tim, what I get is this real sense, though, that, that you have this this quality about you that you look, and notice when things are broken, and where things don't make sense. And so and I could gather that's probably you can you can tell me if it's untrue, but you know, looking at your past experience as well, that kind of holds true that you're a serial entrepreneur. I mean, it was not always the case for you. Like when you were a young, young kid, were you looking around the world and being like this, this is this isn't working, or this is, this is what I want to do. Like, where were you like, as a kid, were you entrepreneur? Tim Parr 17:37 No, but I think I attribute a lot of how I was wired to early 80s, Thrasher magazine. Marc Gutman 17:48 Which I am a massive fan of, you probably aren't a big fan of Baby got Backstory, but I talked about it a lot on the podcast, and it's a whole reason I moved to California after I went to college, because I had fallen in love with the beautiful imagery of Venice Beach, only to realize that none of that was true. You know, it was Venice was it was it was a lot harder. And their kids, those kids who had really hard lives, but I thought it was awesome. And so I'm a big fan, so I can't wait to hear where you're going with this. Tim Parr 18:15 So I viewed that as communication. And it was a it was it was visual communication in a way that was very new. It was that irreverent, you know, part that that didn't really exist. Before that. It was it was it was irreverence meets punk rock meets some form of street culture, fashion, all wrapped up into into that magazine. And I remember, I remember doing that. And with something like let's say, I mean, back in the day, it was like action now or surfer magazine, just flipping through the pages as a teenager or even younger, and registering what was right or what was wrong, just from just from cues. And I think that had a much larger impact on me than just about anything in my life. And I remember my mom used to collect a lot of fashion magazines and I would do the same through those I'm or going through old, old web magazines and Vogue and the rest of them now has like 10 years old or something and just rapidly flipping through because I didn't care about the content and I cared about some type of communication and like I would just I wouldn't know it until I saw it and then I would see it and at the time I could just kill I just thought like okay, well what's what's talking what's cool, what can I what were the hidden hidden almost like easter eggs inside this inside this medium, to where I can I can get knowledge of of what's out. happening. And I put most of how I am from those early days. Marc Gutman 20:07 Do you have a sense of where that came from? And where your parents in the communication were they into That kind of stuff? Tim Parr 20:13 No, it's probably a lack of. I mean, to this day, it's probably why I started companies is so I can talk to people. Marc Gutman 20:21 Yeah. And were you Where did you grow up? Was it Southern California, Northern. And so when you were growing up in Northern California, and you're looking at these magazines, like, what did you think you wanted to do with your life? Like, were you your kind of plans at that point? Tim Parr 20:37 I didn't have any. It was it was to surf and skate. And that was my plans. So my whole existence in high school was surfing and skating. And then when I got to senior year, it was okay, how can I get to live on the beach? And to really do that was UCSB because you are living on the beach. So that's where I ended up going to school so I could serve, you know, and it's just it. It was trying to just find that critical path of the least that I had to do in order to achieve the lifestyle that I really wanted. So I went to UCSB so I could serve, you know, got out of there with a 2.0. And then, you know, just kind of started figuring stuff out after that. But it was it was really that drove everything. Marc Gutman 21:24 Yeah, and were you interested in anything other than surfing at UCSB did you start to think like, hey, like, there might be something else out there? Was it all surf all the time? Tim Parr 21:34 Yeah, it kind of was, you know, living in it after that and lived in a van and, and that was in riding mountain bikes. You know, mountain biking was just coming on the scene and the to complement each other really well. So now I can't really say I thought past the next month. Marc Gutman 21:54 So when would you say you got your first real job? Tim Parr 21:57 I'm still working on it. Marc Gutman 22:02 I like that. That's you, you've mastered that. But it did look like that you had some experience at some other companies prior to starting your own? Tim Parr 22:13 Yeah, I would say the first real job was the company that I started, which was called Swobo. In the in the cycling industry. And before that I was you know, racing bikes. And I was lifeguarding or something, you know, just to make ends meet. But yeah, the first job real job was simply one that I created. Marc Gutman 22:34 And what's the story behind that? Tim Parr 22:37 It was early 90s, mid 90s. It was and the answer to the to what was happening in cycling. So you had at that point suspension fork had come to mountain bikes, which opened up the category immensely. And you had snowboarding's snowboarders in the summertime now hopping on mountain bikes, because there were now fun because of suspension and, and became relevant to a much broader group of people rather than cyclist. So, when that started getting off the ground, the apparel world was still just black lycra shorts and jerseys from Europe, you know, tight like rich jerseys. So we were credited with kind of changing the look of, of mountain biking culture, in a way. And not unlike reading glasses. I mean, the first product that we had, we were we were, besides the traditional one or two, three vendors that had been doing it for last 100 years, we were the ones to bring back first bring back wool jerseys. So we brought back a traditional fabric that no one wanted anymore. And then we paired it with a with a bike messenger kind of punk culture. And we urbanized so cycling before that was pretty tight, a, you know, serious athletics, blah, blah, blah. And what we wanted to do was just take that and change it. So people fixated on the bicycle itself, and the lifestyle around a bicycle that one could have without needing to be an Uber athlete. Marc Gutman 24:22 And then was that business plan the way you just articulated it? Was it that concrete and thought out at the time, or were you just like, Hey, I like cycling. I like mountain biking. Like, I want to do something cool. Like Like, where did it land on that spectrum? I mean, were you really saying like I could make this a disruptive business? Tim Parr 24:40 We didn't use that word back then because I don't think it existed. Because it was early 90s. But yeah, I think there was that mentality because we just watched what snowboarding did to skiing, right? Which was massive, right? It turned to ski on its head. So we saw that there's a similar thing you could do in the streets, specifically, and in urban centers with, with the bicycle and with cycling, like modern cycling. So, yeah, I think it was pretty conscious actually. Marc Gutman 25:21 And so what is it about that idea that that punk rock counterculture idea that, you know, we're gonna come into a category and disrupt it say, hey, like we're the cool kids? Like, what is it about that for you that that's appealing? Tim Parr 25:38 I don't know, if we go into it trying to be the cool kids. That might be a byproduct of it. Or in semi intended consequence. But what is it about that? I have to just think it just boils down to it's just more fun to write. And, and then when you really kind of peel away the onion on it, it's more profitable. Because there's less people doing it, which makes it a whitespace. So if you can, which makes your marketing cost lower, right. So if you're not competing with it with similar messages, there's less noise, therefore you can maximize whatever it is that you are saying. So I mean, that's not anything that I was conscious of at the time. But in hindsight, if you're to look at why would you do that, there's economic reasons for doing it. And there's reasons to do it. Because it's, I just find it way more fun. Marc Gutman 26:46 Then, as you were trading this new brand, it's Swobo I have that right? Kind of like with? Yeah, Tim Parr 26:51 yes. S W O B O Marc Gutman 26:53 Yeah. Swobo? Like, were you getting resistance? Where people not happy with you, you know, that we're the establishment in the category? Oh, yeah. Tim Parr 27:04 Yeah, there are plenty people who are not happy with us. And that's how you rally the people who are happy with you. You know, but, uh, you know, it's a fine line. And I think we had incredible respect for all the right things, and no respect for things that didn't matter. So when if you were, so when we were do the trade show, I would have bank messenger from New York City, you know, let's say 25 years old blue hairs, you know, piercings all over their face, holding up the same piece of clothing as like a 65 year old nostalgics skater or skater, cyclist, they could point to the same thing and go, that's cool. And I and that's always been a goal of mine is is to make the product almost agnostic to the message, make the message be the product, and articulate that better than most. So, so so so that there is old school cyclists that really appreciated what we were doing, and respected the craft of the, of the merino wool and, and the heritage of it and bringing it back and caring about it. And then there is a kids in the streets that were stoked, because it wasn't all, you know, super clean athletes that the sport was about. Marc Gutman 28:33 Yeah. And you said, and I'll paraphrase, because I probably won't get it get it totally right. But it was this idea about make the message, you know, something bigger than the product and articulate it better than most. And that's a pretty, like, advanced sort of idea. You know, I don't think most people just enter the market and think think that way. Now, was that something that was intrinsic to you that that came natural to you? Or did you learn this idea that like, hey, you're really selling something else, something bigger than the actual product? Was that was that something you actually learned or that just come naturally? Tim Parr 29:10 It came naturally. I didn't learn it anywhere. I think it's just instincts Marc Gutman 29:15 Some good instincts. Tim Parr 29:16 Good. Thank you. It sounds like taking it. So you say you take a very true the most traditional piece of cycling apparel you could possibly make, which is the the wool jersey. And then when we first came out, we had a model, this woman with a short crop punky like purple hair. And like that picture was spread everywhere. Every media channel picked it up. I mean, it leads people to ask the question, What's going on here? It's not so straightforward. And that's something that I always am shooting for, is the brand is always on a journey to keep people engaged on a level to where they Asking questions rather than a brand just pushing answers back out. Marc Gutman 30:09 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Oh, wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. Brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product or brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. And this results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out@www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And so as you're as you're building this brand, is your building slow, like, What's going on there? I mean, did you know that? I mean it? Was it just a rocket ship from the beginning? Or were you? Tim Parr 31:20 No it was a shit show! It was my first business. Marc Gutman 31:29 What happens to what happened with that business were to ultimately go, Tim Parr 31:32 I sold it to Santa Cruz bicycles. Marc Gutman 31:35 it was it was not a good was that a good sale for you? Tim Parr 31:38 No, no. No, but you know, it's, it's it's live and learn. You know, I've been asked this a lot, you know, like, would you consider it a success? And what would you do different? And mainly people ask like, well, what would you do different. And I honestly wouldn't do a single thing different. I would have. I mean, it was pain, like to liquidate, you know the brand when you're young and and to take that one right in the chops, dealing with some unsavory invest investors. But come the end of the day, like we had a mission to change the way people thought about the bicycle. And I think we we helped in that in some way, shape or form. So it was a success. We learned a lot. It sucked in many ways at towards the end. But at the same time. I just I know it sounds cliche, but I just when seriously wouldn't change a single thing. Marc Gutman 32:43 And so coming out of that experience you you liquidate did you go work for Santa Cruz or did Tim Parr 32:47 no no's actually, like that same month, I got a call from Patagonia CEO. They're saying we have this surf business that's fledgling and can you come and fix it. Marc Gutman 32:59 And was Yvonne, Yvonne are the CEO at the time. Tim Parr 33:03 He was not his name is Michael crook. And that's who called me. And then Luckily, I did get to work with Avon because Avon was very passionate and wanted this thing to work, it was going to work. So he wanted to make sure that it was somewhat hands on so to this day, I consider myself incredibly lucky to have you know, driven up and down the California coast with him and go out to the ranch to Hollister ranch and just have long conversations with him about all kinds of stuff. Marc Gutman 33:36 So I imagined that had to be an incredibly well maybe not like what you're hoping for for someone to offer you a job if someone's gonna offer you a job after your first business to get the call from Patagonia to come get involved in something you love and care so deeply about surfing. I had to be pretty awesome. Tim Parr 33:53 It was great. It was great again lucky. So I was there a year year and a half and it was turned it around. It was successful. People were happy Yvonne was happy. And then from there started a brand consultancy. Marc Gutman 34:09 So why not stay at Patagonia why why start a brand consultancy? Tim Parr 34:15 Because we were living still up in up in Noe Valley, California, which was a plane flight away from Ventura. So I was literally flying down Monday mornings, and I'd leave the house about 4am to get to the airport for a six o'clock flight. I'd stay down to Ventura till Thursday night, and then fly home Thursday night and do it all over again Monday morning. And so I did that for a year. That was a big part why Marc Gutman 34:46 I'm exhausted just listeningto you talk about it, I can only imagine. I get it and so you decide that you're going to part ways and you you form a brand consultancy. Like how did that go? It was Tim Parr 35:00 Again, I see I feel that was another gift. I mean, anytime people welcome you into their home like that. So that was fun. So I called it par Goldman and burn. And there was no Goldman and there was no burn. But sounds. Yeah, it worked up until I was I was in the boardroom of LL Bean. And I just delivered a project that I'd spent. God knows how long eight months maybe. Can't remember. And it all went well. And I had my business card there picks it up. And the guy looks at he goes, Okay, so where's Goldman and burn? I go, Oh, you know, Oscar Goldman from the $6 million, man. Yeah, I guess. Well, I kind of wish that he was my partner, but he's not really my partner. And then David Burns from the talking heads. I love that guy, too. So I wish he was my partner, but he's not really my partner. Okay, I think it's funny. They didn't think it was funny. Marc Gutman 35:58 They didn't think it was funny? I mean, like, from from the, if you're gonna hire a brand consultancy, it might as well be one that's like, you know, having made a partner's of their boyhood dreams, you know, and Tim Parr 36:10 the logo looked really regal. You know, if the shield if you look really closely, there's like a Shaka inside shield. So that was like the giveaway that maybe something was up. Marc Gutman 36:23 Literally, you had a part with LLBean and as a customer, because Tim Parr 36:26 oh, no, no, no, it was it was over it because I had delivered the goods. And I was done. But it was the only time that that name didn't work. And, you know, I had great and fantastic clients like Kona mountain bikes. To this day, I'm still close friends with and Patagonia and a lot of outdoor industry or sports or surf related, talking about big, you know, big strategic thinking around brands. And I remember having one meeting where it was just painful, as in every consultant has, has these clients. And I just remember walking out thinking I'm done. And I remember reading this quote, which I thought is so brilliant. And it never occurred to me, but the quote was in order to do something different, you can't do things the same. Yeah. So if I don't want to do this anymore, like I need to stop doing this. Like right now. I can just stop and I need to do something different. And that's when I stopped consulting. Marc Gutman 37:31 And it was it was it as cut and dry. Is that did you fire? You know, fire any existing clients? Tim Parr 37:37 well, they were not? Oh, well, I was I was not I ran out a couple of clients. You know, I did tell him that I was kind of closing up shop. And yeah, and then that was that. Marc Gutman 37:49 What was your personal life? Like at this time? Did you have a family did you have? Yeah. And so what was that conversation like? Tim Parr 37:57 Well, it gets better because then I think a month after that, I decided that I was going to learn guitar and start a bluegrass band and tour the United States, the western United States. So my, my wife has a successful dance business in in Northern California. So we were able to I could work for the dance business, doing marketing related things while I was on the road playing music. So it all kind of worked out in a way. So I joined the family business for a while. And played music. Marc Gutman 38:36 Yeah, how did that that musical career go? Tim Parr 38:40 It was super fun. I mean, I didn't really know how to do any of it. So I spent time learning how to learn, which was interesting. And a lot of this with the music was a catalyst for what we're doing now with CADDIS because I had to learn I had to learn how to learn being at the time in my mid 40s, late 40s. And your brain is different. So there's a strategy to learning something difficult, like acoustic guitar, you know, flat picking bluegrass, and, and you don't want to waste time when you're that age. So I did a lot of reading on how to learn and then got a really good teacher. And I was practicing six, seven hours a day and to get up to speed. But a lot of that process is is context for your this whole aging platform of what is now CADDIS. This is actually before CADDIS was even created. So it's all it all kind of leads to where we are today. Marc Gutman 39:51 Yeah, and you mentioned that we we learn differently and their strategies for that. Like are you able to talk at like a high level like, what those are like? Tim Parr 40:00 So, I mean, specifically for music, let's just stick to a sentence. So it's concrete. But I'm sure you can apply it to a lot of different things. You have to really pinpoint what you want to learn, break it up to a bunch of different pieces. Don't spend any more than 15 to 20 minutes on, like, focus on it. And then go just like put it down and go do something else, like completely leave it and then go back and do it all over again. And you have to break everything down in small chunks of material and in time. And there's a consistency to it. Which makes your your learning curve, do this instead of this, which isn't 100% true, because eventually you do this and you plateau. And then you kind of need to find these incremental gains. But in a nutshell, it's and this is complete layman's terms, but it's break things into small chunks. Don't spend, you know, hours and hours kind of dwelling on IT spend like because your mind will wander, like spend 15 2030 minutes in a real deep dive, and then chill out and go do something else. And then come back to it and deep dive again. Marc Gutman 41:17 Well, thanks for sharing, that's awesome. Like, I just assumed we kind of had a normal learning pattern throughout our lives, I didn't realize that we, we learn differently as we as we grow older. Tim Parr 41:27 Yeah, the brain, the brain changes. And one of the best things you can do for your brain as you age is learn music. Because it's one of the few things if you think about it, you're using audio, you're hearing something, you're thinking about something you're acting, there's a physical action to it. And then you have to, you know, recreate there's the hand movement, his left hand, right, and it basically hits every lobe on your brain. Marc Gutman 41:56 Well, you just gave me permission to tell my wife, I'm going to read new guitar for the 10th time in my career. I think I picked it up and set it down too many times. But I love that. And so after the the music career did is that when you started CADDIS? Tim Parr 42:11 Yes. So it was actually during, you know, I thought I could do both. So I'm going to start this company. I'll tour I can work out of the van, you know, with my laptop. All good. That's a bad idea. Let the record show that that's a bad idea. Marc Gutman 42:34 You heard it here first. Why? Why do that you made the comment, I think earlier in our conversation that you probably really didn't have to do this like this, you didn't have to start another company. Sounds like that you had the ability to work for the family business and pursue your dream of playing bluegrass on the road. Like, isn't that enough? Like why? Like, why start a company? You know, at this point in your life and what what you have going on? Tim Parr 43:02 Yeah, it got to a point where I couldn't not do it. Like it was it was irresponsible of me like to do it and not to do it. If I didn't do it. Like it was like, Okay, my circle of friends are my contacts are the people to do this thing. If you don't do this thing. Someone's gonna do it. And it's, it may not be as good. So you have to go do this thing now. Marc Gutman 43:34 And were you starting to circulate this idea and get positive reinforcement? Or was this just bubbling up in the back of your own mind? Tim Parr 43:40 No Yeah, I was getting I was getting a mixed bag. Some people just didn't get it. And some people really got it. And it took a friend of mine. I just came back from playing. You know where it was it was we played the the the telluride Bluegrass Festival. And I remember coming as long as drive home and and I went to dinner a couple days later with a friend of mine. who at the time was, I believe he's the CEO of Nixon watches. And he asked me like, and I've known him forever. And he goes, well, where are you at with this reading glass idea? He didn't told me about it. Oh, yeah. Looking into this and I'm looking into that and, and he just he saw right through the bullshit. He goes, No goes you start that tomorrow. Okay, so then I came home and told my wife what Scott told me and and I, what do you think she's like, Well, what do you think? Oh, all right, let's let's do it. You know, because you got to have everyone on board because as we noted earlier, they're hard and they take a toll on everybody. So kind of got the sign off on it. And away we went, but It was that feeling of, like, you can't not do it. I was gonna say it's just too late, like it got to be too late. Marc Gutman 45:11 And so I love imagining like, you know, Scott just giving you the tough love. And Tim Parr 45:15 Oh, he gave me that the talk, dropping, Marc Gutman 45:18 Dropping truth bombs. And so like, what was the first thing you did after that? Like, how did you get started? Tim Parr 45:24 So I knew I didn't want it well. So I had I brought it up to a certain point. And I don't even know what that point was at this juncture. But then I knew I didn't want to do it alone. And I knew if I was going to do it, I wanted to do it with the best people that I've ever worked with. And so I made a couple of email calls, I think the first one was to Dustin Robertson, who was at bat country calm forever, who I'd known through my suavo days and ran by him. And he just sent me like this email back that says, Okay, let's go. And that was that. And so him and then it kind of trickled to my partner at suavo, which was, you know, 20 years prior, if not longer, getting him on board. A friend, Enoch Harris, those were the three cores. And then those people, new people, and then it grew out to think five people total by tally watch it, but I wasn't going to go it alone. I've done that before. And there's no reason to do it. You need really good, experienced people to get something like this going. Marc Gutman 46:46 Yeah. And that, that leads me I was gonna ask, like, as you're assembling this team, this kind of a tribute band, so to speak of, of players like we actually what are you looking for? Like, what do you what are you thinking? You know, because obviously experience but you know, that's, that's pretty easy. What else are you looking for in these in these people that you're bringing on board to help you achieve this goal? Tim Parr 47:07 Personality types. So I know that these things are rollercoasters. So, you know, people that the shits gonna hit the fan, and, you know, it's all gonna be okay. I mean, most of these people who I started with, I've known for over 25 years. So, you know, we're gonna succeed together or fail together. And both were okay. Marc Gutman 47:36 So now that you've built up catalysts, and it's it's got momentum, it's turning into this brand that stands for more than than just readers. But like, what's hard about it? Like, what don't we know? Like, what's hard about the reader business? Tim Parr 47:50 Oh, you know, it's not the reader business as hard as businesses that are hard. So, I mean, I wouldn't really say that the reader business is hard, because they're all hard, you know, it doesn't matter. I don't care what you're doing. This is something like I've given talks at, at colleges or whatever, and you get a lot of questions, and there's no easy path. It doesn't matter what it is, or what gifts you have, like, they're all hard, especially in I shouldn't say especially, that's biased, I'm biased to think that when you make stuff, like the amount of crap that can go wrong, on any given moment, you know, from shipments being bad to boot, you know, fabrics that bleed into, you know, and, and all kinds of, there's just a myriad of things that can happen. So, I mean, into right now, today, you know, the company is growing really fast. And we're just, you know, we're adding people at a fast rate. And, you know, the hardest thing is seeing it, it's always been the same thing. And we are a remote business. So that's part of the beauty. And the challenge is that we've always been a remote business. So So communication will always be a challenge. You know, how we move ideas around and get projects done. But I mean, in a nutshell, answer your question. I think they're all just hard. And Marc Gutman 49:23 So one of the things that I think is really cool and distinguishable about your brand is on the top of I don't even know what you call the top of the frame here. I'm sure you have. Tim Parr 49:31 I don't know either. Marc Gutman 49:33 Okay, there's not like a fancy name. I was like, he's gonna tell me it's like, Tim Parr 49:37 I'm not saying that there's not a fancy name. I'm telling you. I don't know what it is. Marc Gutman 49:42 But you have things like regular and Goofy over the eyes, imprinted on the frame, I think Yeah, a port and starboard one. Where does that come from? Like, where the whose idea was that and why why do you that? Tim Parr 49:55 Kind of why not? returns on these. So these are the Another Mr. cartoons. So there's what he says is Canada and that he, which is left and right in Spanish. There's port starboard Goofy, regular. It seemed like a good surface. Somehow. Marc Gutman 50:16 Yeah, under utilized. No one else is doing it. It's really, yeah, it's really, really cool. I mean, it's Tim Parr 50:24 Maximize your assets. Marc Gutman 50:28 And so you know, you just showed us the the Mr. cartoon, what's your favorite frame? Is it the Mr. Cartoon? Or is there Tim Parr 50:35 I don't have one. And I always compare this. I listen to Terry Gross, interviewed Keith Richards. And she asked him what his favorite song was. And she just, he just ripped her head off, saying how, ah, Jerry, it's like trying to pick a favorite child. You don't do that then other than that, so I kind of feel the same way. Marc Gutman 50:58 Yeah, well, I agree, kids. And I'll tell you right now I have a favorite. It's not always the same one. It changes from time to time, but at any given time, I do have a favorite one that says they don't lie. Tim Parr 51:11 Okay, you're probably true. me close Miklos? I would say. And this is my favorite Marc Gutman 51:18 Story about Keith Richards makes me think you know, I know that you work with a lot of like really cool influencers and ambassadors that are like aging athletes and surfers and musicians. But who have you seen where your product that you didn't have a relationship with that just really like blew your mind? You're like, I can't believe the day that they're wearing my stuff. Tim Parr 51:42 Man. Lately, there's been a few you know, Gwyneth Paltrow, and Julia Louis, Julianne Moore. Did girl. And I heard that Shepard Fairey has Pete Souza, the White House photographer. So they're just I mean, it's like Katie Couric? Yes, posting about them and doing okay. So like, I don't run in those circles, obviously. So it's, it's cool when you see that and people have, there's a lot of pride around the discovery. And the people that take selfies, you know, and are posting and saying that, like, I support this, you know, and without any prompting from us, I think it's fantastic. It means that the, the communication is leaving, and it's coming back, that it's been received. And to me that's like, I don't care if I die tomorrow, like when people do that with our brand. It's, it's the Holy Grail. Marc Gutman 52:54 And so as you're building this brand, as you're spreading this message, what's next for CADDIS? Where do you want this thing to go? Tim Parr 53:00 What we're gonna do is, is further develop this idea of owning age. So beyond reading glasses, and one of the first things we're doing is we're starting a newsletter that's going to grow into something bigger, but that's called humongous living. And then, from humongous living, we've just started a new nonprofit called music farming.org, which I'm super excited about, because the company from the get go, took 1% of gross revenue. And we and we gave it to music education programs across the United States. That's a soft spot for me personally, what was happening, we're growing so fast that that bucket of cash grew to a size that I couldn't manage. So the idea is, okay, let's pull it out of CADDIS create a separate entity to which other brands can contribute it into and we actually grow this thing where we can start helping people doing the hard work on the, you know, in the trenches, getting instruments, paying teachers, whatever they need, so that we can make make music education, something important again in this country. Marc Gutman 54:26 And that is Tim Parr, founder of CADDIS. As I reflect on our conversation, Tim said something to me that I can't get out of my head. He said, that's where the fun lies in changing people's minds. And I couldn't agree more. I thought Tim's journey was full of gold nuggets about building a brand and building a business. But if you were to take one thing away from this conversation, it's sell the message more than the product is a big thank you. In part and the cat is team. I love this mission you're on to help people own their age. I could probably use a little of that secret sauce myself. We will link to all things Tim Parr, CADDIS, and music farming, the nonprofit Tim discussed in the episode in the show notes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast@wildstory.com our best guests like Tim, come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode I like big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny.

BGBS 059: Chris Kirby | Ithaca Hummus | It's Simple.Ithaca Hummus. America's fastest-growing hummus brand founded by Chris Kirby: CEO, trained professional chef, and mustache aficionado. Chris's career identity began in the restaurant world before he gained the courage to declare that he had a different path to follow, and returned to school. It was a tough decision to make, but this pivot lead to Chris stumbling upon a certain, special chickpea dish that needed his help. Did Chris Kirby find hummus or did hummus find him? We may never find out. From here we learn about the birth of Ithaca Hummus, which shot from a farmer's market stand to 7500 stores nationwide today using a small, yet big-hearted team of 8. We can't wait for you to hear all about Chris's journey to get here. Fair warning: After all that mouth-watering hummus talk, you may find yourself checking out ithacahummus.com/where-to-buy for your nearest retailer selling this delicious dish. We speak from personal experience. Quotes[17:27] It's almost like admitting failure, you know? Kind of like, “Oh, I thought one thing, and now, I don't think that anymore.” And it's not failure—it just feels like it in the moment. [25:32] It seems so simple on its face, and it really is at the end of the day. But you know, sometimes those simple ideas are the ones that really have the most impact. [29:43] I can't remember a moment where I had any hesitation that I was going to throw myself full-fledged at this. I think in the beginning like what was so just fueling me was having something of my own for the first time and just being able to experience these little success points along the way. [39:46] Our mission is to introduce America to its new favorite brand of hummus and we've got some proof points that we're actually, really doing that. And I think that's what gets us all excited on the team at Ithaca hummus is thinking about the success that we've been able to demonstrate on a mid-size scale, not full blown quite yet and dreaming about like, “Well, what happens when our distribution is four times the size that it is now?” ResourcesLinkedIn: Chris Kirby Website: ithacahummus.com Where to buy: ithacahummus.com/where-to-buy Podcast TranscriptChris Kirby 0:02 We were at the farmers market but also in the morning, I would deliver hummus to natural food stores and coffee shops and things. I just remember going in and seeing that just one had been purchased. And that was so energizing for me to just think that like, wow, like, I put that here yesterday and now someone that I don't even know like, picked that up and it's in their refrigerator and they're eating it right now. Like, wow, what a cool feeling that is and so there was a bunch of stuff like that, you know, that I've heard other people call entrepreneurial currency that I just latched on to and really use to energize. Marc Gutman 0:44 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the baby got backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs alike big back stories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Backstory. We are talking hummus. Yep, that delicious snack inside dish made of chickpeas. And before we get deep into hummus, trust me, you're gonna love this one. A gentle reminder. If you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify. Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend. Maybe while eating hummus. It's time we bring the world together over the common love of the Baby Got Back story podcast and hummus. Which brings me to today's guest, Chris Kirby. Chris is a trained professional chef, and the founder and CEO of Ithaca Hummus, which is available in over 7500 stores nationwide. At the recording of this episode, back in 2013, Chris left his successful restaurant career as a chef to go back to college. And this is where it dawned on him. hummus needed his help. And he got to work perfecting a simple lemon garlic hummus recipe. and a month later he was selling it at the Ithaca farmers market on the weekends. And Chris's story is one of the entrepreneurial dream of taking what you love and finding a way to make a living at it. As you'll hear, I'm not sure if he found hummus or if hummus found him. But what Chris did find was a way to take something that already existed and make it better. And that's what being an entrepreneur is all about. He made it so much better, that he and the team if the gothamist are now shipping approximately 30,000 containers of hummus per week. That's a lot of hummus. But Chris Kirby didn't always know the hummus was in his future. And this is his story. I am here with Chris Kirby, the founder and CEO of Ithaca Hummus, Chris, thank you for coming on the show. So appreciate it. And like let's hop right into it. You know, I normally have a big dossier of questions for you. But as I was doing some pre show research I was on your website and most intriguing to me is your own bio on the website and a couple things that really stood out to me You say you're a ping pong champion. I'd like to hear a little bit about that. Chef Pitbull lover, but more importantly, mustache. afficionado. Tell me a little bit about that. Like the word is becoming a mustache afficionado come from Chris Kirby 4:02 Well, I luckily have my mustache on today. And you know, I wanted to be a little bit out there and embellish a little bit on the bio. But I've had a mustache since my son was born and went out to lunch with a friend. Like, right around the time my son was born had this mustache grown and he was like, You know what, I think you could be like one of those dads that just always has a mustache. And I had never thought about it that way and all of a sudden I just committed to it. Yeah, I'm really into it trimming with scissors. And you know, the whole nine yards is fun. Marc Gutman 4:37 Hashtag mustache dad. I love that my father had a mustache I was like is like, like kind of his defining attribute was he always had a mustache. So that's really, really great. And so let's hop into it. You know, Chris, you're the co founder of ethika hummus. We're gonna talk a little bit or a lot a bit about hummus and that's a baby got backstory first. We haven't dove deep on chickpeas and hummus yet, so I'm excited to do that. But when you're ready young boy, I mean, were you into hummus. Was that something that was even on your radar when you were? Let's just say like eight, nine years old? No, Chris Kirby 5:06 Not at all. I was really into food, and daytime TV cooking shows like Jacques papan. And Julia Child like, I would watch them daily. But Thomas didn't enter my life until much later on. Marc Gutman 5:22 And so tell me a little bit about those shows and what life was like for young Chris. I mean, most people today take for granted that we can just go to YouTube or go to a chef's page or a channel and catch up on all these shows. But like a Julia Child show that guy there was like, PBS, I was like some weird fringe kind of stuff. So kind of take me back there a little bit and tell me about what your childhood was like. And what turned you on to cooking at such a young age? Chris Kirby 5:45 Yeah, well, I had a great childhood, I was really fortunate to come from a loving, supportive family. Both my parents were great role models. My dad was the first one in his family to graduate college. And my mom's like, the most selfless person that I know. But I come from a family of four kids, which isn't huge, but for us, it was a lot. And my parents had to be somewhat selective with limited time and money. And that seemed difficult at times. But looking back, you know, I had everything that I needed to thrive and really learn the value of hard work from them. Why did I love cooking shows so much? That's such a good question. And it gets to like the core. And maybe it's a combination of like something so tangible, and like process. And also, I'm a visual learner. So I loved being able to watch and hear and just learn and get explanations behind. Like, why you tie a chicken this way? and etc. So it's a good question. I don't know, really, what about me really turned me on to that. But I know it stuck Marc Gutman 6:50 Yeah, and so were either of your parents in the restaurant space, or in the cooking or anything like that? Did you get that from them? Or was this something that was unique to Chris and just your thing? Chris Kirby 7:01 No, my mom was a good cook. I'm from Maryland. So there are some like food, rituals. They're like blue crabs and things like that, that really showed me how good food can be when it's prepared the right way with fresh ingredients. But neither one of my parents were in the food industry now. Marc Gutman 7:19 And so at that point, were you. So you're looking at cooking shows, you're enthralled by them? Are you actually kind of getting the ingredients together and trying to attempt some of these things. I mean, I always remember those shows were so interesting, because it took me forever. Like I just had this disconnect I could never understand like how they always had like these perfect bowls of ingredients, always measured out. Like for some reason, I just didn't understand that. They pre measure the ingredients, you know, like I was like, Wow, it's like, they've always got these perfect, like amounts of ingredients that they're just dumping into the recipe. And it was always just like really hard for me to I was like, that's so complicated and cool. But were you taking these and were you actually cooking? Or were you just like, was this a little bit of escapism? Were you just kind of thinking, wow, someday maybe Chris Kirby 7:59 I was experimenting horribly, like I think most people when they first get involved in cooking and excited about it, they enter the like, empty out the spice cabinet phase, like as the first one. And so I spent a long time there making things like, Hey, I made this try and people would be very polite and kind of choke things down now and again, but I just like tinkering around and then this was like a creative expression way to do that. Yeah, I was definitely practicing what I was inspired by watching on TV. I wouldn't say I was following verbatim though. Marc Gutman 8:37 Yeah, how serious were you? I mean, Was this something you were doing after school? and on weekends? It was it like something that was personal or private to Chris or Was this something that was starting to take over was this showing up at school was this showing up as a bit of a this is called a healthy obsession, for lack of a better word, Chris Kirby 8:54 I guess when it started to become real for me was I got my first job when I was 14 washing dishes at the local restaurant. And I remember looking at the cooks on the line and just idolizing them. I was like man, look at how fast and organized and efficient and just working so hard and doing such a good job and they just look badass to me. And at that time, my dream was to go to the Naval Academy, being from Maryland that's like a something that's in front of you right there. But I had this discussion about idolizing these line cooks at work with a guidance counselor in high school and she was like you know what, you sound really passionate about this, maybe you should think about culinary school. And that was kind of the direction and push that I needed to like really be confident about a path at that age and I just kind of geared towards that. Marc Gutman 9:48 That's crazy like at a young age like if someone you know I've talked about this before, but if someone just gives you permission tells you like hey, like you can do this I can influence it can have and really be pivotal and you're like oh I can like that's Really, really cool. And so when you talk about these line cooks and the chefs being badass, I mean, is that what you were really into? Was it the technical aspect? Was it almost like you saw them as like these great technicians or even craftspeople or artists, however you want to define it? Or were you enthralled with what was on the other end of the plate? You know what having a great meal man, like, Where were you following? on that spectrum? Was it more about like, kind of that technical skill? Or was it more like, hey, like, food is this like, amazing thing that brings people together or whatever it might be, I don't want to put the words in your mouth. Chris Kirby 10:31 I think it was a little bit of both. I think at 14, I was more, I think intrigued by like the badass theory of it. And then as I developed into my own career and culinary school, I started to really appreciate the technical side and the processes and the ingredients and the importance and then ultimately, got into my career as a chef and really started to fall in love with my ability to influence people's outlook on food and their diet. And I would get really motivated anytime someone said that they didn't like an ingredient like beets or something and wanted to change that Marc Gutman 11:11 Chip on your shoulder about beets or just to show people that they can be a good ingredient or something like that? Chris Kirby 11:16 Anything. Yeah, any of the above like chicken breasts always dry? Like, okay, well, I will make one that that isn't. And I think it was much about like having a little bit of an ego of like, trying to show that I can do something as it was about the ingredient, but healthy mix, like anything. Marc Gutman 11:35 And so sounds like that you were getting into high school, you decide to go to culinary school. Any doubts there? I mean, were your parents totally cool with that? Did they have any reservations? Or like, what was going on there? Did they say maybe you should look at other things? Or were you just like, gung ho and plus? Sounds like you abandon your dream of Annapolis. And I don't know how serious that was, like within your family or anything. But what's going on there as far as culinary school and the general attitude of everyone around you? Chris Kirby 12:01 Yeah, it was a big discussion at home. Because I was very serious about Annapolis, and the Naval Academy, I had an uncle who went to the Naval Academy, and I was really inspired by him early on. And I think my parents just felt like, Wow, what a drastic difference this would be. And how would that impact your life and his parents do? You know, they're just trying to look around corners and want to see their kids make the best decisions? And they were definitely concerned about the lifestyle that would come with being a chef, in the worst case, you know, that's where their mind went as normal, I guess, you know, is that going to be sustainable for the life that I may want to live one day, and ultimately, I ended up confronting all those things later in life, but they were totally concerned about it. Marc Gutman 12:50 And as he went to culinary school, where'd you end up going to culinary school? Chris Kirby 12:54 Johnson and Wales in Charlotte, North Carolina. Marc Gutman 12:57 I don't know much about culinary school. So was that something that you had set your sights on? Like, you're like, Hey, this is like where I really want to go? And if so why? Chris Kirby 13:03 I wouldn't say so. It was like, I knew that. I wanted to move south, a little warmer. And so I think that was probably in all honesty, the biggest draw the CIA is in Hyde Park in upstate New York, which was like colder than Maryland. And Johnson and Wales had just built this brand new campus in Charlotte. And they're also renowned culinary school. And I think that was ultimately what drove that decision, was it it was in North Carolina? Marc Gutman 13:32 And did you have any sense like of what kind of food you were drawn to what kind of cuisine what you wanted to do? Or at that point? Was it all exploration? Chris Kirby 13:40 It was very exploratory. I didn't have like a passion for any one specific cuisine or culture. In fact, kind of the opposite. I think at that stage, what was fascinating to me, it was like, there's a noodle in every single culture ever. There's some kind of grain dish, and it's just variation from one part of the planet to another based on abundance of other ingredients. And so I just wanted to learn more. I think from a cuisine perspective about how that all comes together and how everyone seemed to make it work. Marc Gutman 14:14 Did anything develop at Connor school? Did you start to see a path or a light? Or how did that shape up for you? Chris Kirby 14:20 I would say, Oh, really evolved at the beginning of culinary school. I also, I've always had a very entrepreneurial mindset. And so I would listen to some classmates talk about like wanting to work in fine dining, and it would make me think like, well, that's kind of like, stupid, because that's only 4% of the industry and really difficult to make money at and how is that going to actually work for you? Didn't seem like very good odds. And so in coronary school, I was definitely more like, how do I make really great food for the masses, and kind of like, focus on that, that actually evolved, you know? When I got into restaurants, I did become really passionate about fine dining, French cuisine and just the classic, you know, European techniques and recipes. Marc Gutman 15:10 And so when you left culinary school, it sounds like you had a bit of a worldview where you're like, Look, I'm going to make food for the masses. I mean, what was the plan? What did you think you were gonna do? When you left culinary school, Chris Kirby 15:22 I never really had ambition to be like a chef on TV, or I think I was what seemed most attainable and realistic. And the biggest goal that I could set for myself at the time was owning a restaurant group, like a bunch of restaurants with different concepts. And that didn't last very long. But I think if I did have a clear thought, at that time period, that was probably it. Marc Gutman 15:45 Done. So what happened, what changed your you know, we all come out of school and training we like with big vision and idealistic. And then I think the world shows us kind of how it's going to react as well. And we got to make some changes. So what happened for you? Chris Kirby 15:57 Well, I just kind of got burnt out on the lifestyle, and I was in it big time, just working like crazy. And alcohol fueled, and you know, that ended up kind of being something that I had to come to terms with later in life as well. And I can just feel it, this isn't gonna lead where I think I ultimately want to go. And it just something inside of me just felt like, I've got to do something different and maybe take a different path. I don't know what that is. But after about seven years, I felt like I needed to make a change. Marc Gutman 16:31 That's what that point like, where are we like, what restaurant? Are you working at? What's your title? What's your role? What's going on for you? Chris Kirby 16:38 So I went from working in Baltimore, where I grew up to Washington, DC, fine dining, French restaurant, then out to Las Vegas, then to Austin, Texas, which is where I ultimately stayed the longest. That's where I made the decision. After about three or four years of living in Austin, I was the chef at a wine bar in downtown Austin called mulberry. And yeah, I was just ready to ready to move on. Marc Gutman 17:04 That must have been hard. I mean, you know, you've spent a good chunk of your life at this point. As a chef, that's your identity, you declared it that's your training. I mean, how to be hard to make that decision was? Chris Kirby 17:20 It was I mean, I think I knew that I needed to make it long before I actually mustered up the courage. It's almost like admitting failure, you know, kind of like, Oh, I thought one thing, and now, I don't think that anymore. And it's not failure, it feels like it in the moment. But it definitely took a lot for me to leave my life in Austin, and all my friends. And what I ended up doing was moving back to Baltimore and going back to community college for a year to figure things out, really, and then apply and think about the next step. Marc Gutman 17:54 And what did you study and figure out? Chris Kirby 17:56 I took some basic courses, basic business, accounting, finance, things that I could really tap into that entrepreneurial spirit that I knew I had. So I did a year at community college, and ended up applying to a handful of schools to finish my bachelor's degree. And Community College was really just like, let's be smart about this, like, let's take the courses that I can transfer and like, into whatever the next school would be Marc Gutman 18:28 Yeah, and where was that? Chris Kirby 18:29 Shockingly, I ended up getting into the hotel school at Cornell, which sounds like very fancy Ivy League, and it is, but I was like, shocked when I got in. And I was out of place there, for sure. I was 26. And all my classmates were 18. And I'm convinced to this day that the way that I got in was my essay, you know, how you write the letter and everything and as part of the application and I told them exactly what I was going to do. I said, I'm going to come to Cornell, and I'm going to start a business as soon as I get there. And I'm going to use all the professors as consultants, and I'm going to take everything that I'm learning and apply it in real time to the business that I build. I don't know what that's gonna be I'll figure it out when I get there. But yeah, I think that's what sparked their interest. Marc Gutman 19:22 Did you know when you went to Cornell, I mean that this business that you're gonna start that you didn't know what it was, but you knew what you wanted it to be? Did you know it was gonna be in the hospitality space? Because Cornell I mean, as you know, and but most of our listeners might not know, I mean, that's one of the best, if not the best hospitality programs in the country. I mean, it's renowned for that. And so thinking that were you like, hey, like, I'm gonna do something in this food slash hospitality space. Are you just not sure? Chris Kirby 19:51 Yeah, I totally did. I wanted to figure something out that I can parlay like all the experience and knowledge of food that I had built. And definitely stay in that lane for my own business. But yeah, my girlfriend at the time, and now what I think I told her that maybe what I'll do is I'll go to Africa, and I'll work at a McDonald's and learn the like processes of how they make that work on such a huge scale, and then apply like just better food to that down the road. That was one of many, many ideas. And I'm shocked that she listened to that was like, Okay, yeah, it sounds good. It's a little far fetched. But… Marc Gutman 20:32 So did you work at McDonald's? Chris Kirby 20:34 No, I didn't end up doing that. No, no, no, no, I didn't, you know, the hotel school there as I knew it was right for me, because everything was tailored toward the hospitality industry. So I got it, you know, it wasn't totally outside of my purview of what I understood. And so they say that instead of ball bearings, they talk about biscuits, and you know, and like economics and finance, which is true. So just tailored to what I already know. Marc Gutman 21:01 So you show up at Cornell, you're all fresh face, you have big dreams, you're an old freshmen. What was the first business idea? was it? Was it like a hummus? Or was it something else Chris Kirby 21:10 It was, I knew within a week of being an Ithaca, that this was a product that was missing in the local food economy and food scene. There's a an amazing farmers market, the Ithaca farmers market, that it didn't take very long, you know, I spent a weekend at the farmers market, and hit up greenstar Co Op, which is the local natural food store. And I was looking for what I could do locally that would be successful, but also on a national level, like, what's a category or type of food that's available in grocery stores that needs the most help from someone like me. And I just felt like that's where I could add the most value. And hummus just happened to check both of those boxes. Marc Gutman 21:59 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline. or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again, in this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out@www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. Why hummus? Like why did it Need help? Like what don't we get? Because I go to the market and ton of hummus. There's other competitors out there like what did you see? Chris Kirby 23:10 So hummus is you know, I think most people would agree if you eat a lot of hummus that the best time is comes from like a local restaurant or a local producer. It's made fresh and some of the nationally available stuff and brands like it's just kind of a little bland, and not really all that exciting, certainly not as good as it can be when it's fresh. And so I saw first of all the opportunity to be that local hummus in Ithaca. And on a longer view, the opportunity for someone like me to figure out how to replicate that quality on a national level through the commercialization process. How do we commercialize something that's as high quality as a local product without totally ruining and destroying all the things that make that local product good in the first place? Marc Gutman 24:00 And I'm so just intrigued and amazed by this because I mean hummus, like you probably know better than I have done our research on this. It's been around for 1000s of years, right? Like This isn't like, like hummus has been around for you know, much longer than just about everything. And we've had it and it's so it's not like also, I mean, this isn't like the 60s and like the advent of like natural foods. I mean, I find it just so interesting that there was this opportunity. And so prior to all this, like were you sitting around, were you kind of like this, like hummus snob or hummus kind of sewer where you're like thinking like, Oh, this isn't good, or they, but it was purely looking at it more from a business perspective. Chris Kirby 24:37 Yeah, it was trying to recognize an opportunity that I could take advantage of now and in the future. And that's how I would describe for me at least when I say I haven't this entrepreneurial mindset, it's just looking at things and thinking like, I could do that better. You know, maybe there's a way What if we change this or did this better did this different and you know, yeah, they're brilliant. 1000s of ideas that spark out of that way of thinking, and this just happened to be one that was like, Man, this really clicks, I don't need to reinvent Thomas, I just need to make really good, authentic commerce available to the mass market. Marc Gutman 25:17 And as you went, and you told your girlfriend at the time, now your wife, or you told your professors, hey, I am going to be the hummus king of Africa, then I'm going to be the hummus king of the nation. Where did they say Chris Kirby 25:30 Mixed reactions? You know, I mean, it seems so simple on its face, and it really is at the end of the day. But you know, sometimes those simple ideas are the ones that really have the most impact. Marc Gutman 25:44 So maybe walk us through a little bit like what happened. So you're at Cornell, and you're going to use your professors as your unofficial board and your consultants and you have this idea for hummus, like, what happens? Do you just start blending in your kitchen? Like, how do you how to kind of get this thing going? Chris Kirby 25:59 Yeah, so first of all, food safety is something that I was very well trained on as a chef and I had never produced a product made for resale. That plus like, how do I start a business? How do I form an LLC? Or now what do I is an S corp or a C Corp? Or what? So those two questions like forming the business and figuring out how to operate and make this product safely so that it could be distributed to people and they weren't going to get sick? were the first two things that I tackled, and then it became about where am I going to make it and where am I going to sell it. And I was very lucky to find a summer camp in Ithaca that had a food safe kitchen and you know, everything that I needed, basically to get started. For $200 a month, I rented this place and would go and make test batches and eventually, like batches for sale at night. And I would take it to the farmers market on the weekend and sell it there. Marc Gutman 27:00 And so prior to this, how would you rank your level of hummus chef or had you shut up any hummus prior to this? Or like, are you just kind of figuring this out at this point? Chris Kirby 27:11 Yeah, so I had had some hummus training, you could say, throughout my voluntary career, I was really close with one of my friends in DC at the restaurant I told you about who was Lebanese and he would make on Sundays when it was his turn family meal. And hummus was always a big part of that. And what I loved about his hummus compared to like the stuff you could buy at the grocery store was the fresh lemony, like garlicky, it was just tasted fresh, very intense flavor wasn't bland or boring at all. So yeah, I learned how to make comments from my buddy fi's all. And that's basically the recipe that I used when I started at the comments and still use today. Marc Gutman 27:52 Yeah, in addition to it being fresh, like what makes a great hummus, like what's everyone else getting wrong? And what's it good doing right with what you can share? Obviously, Chris Kirby 28:01 I can be totally open about what we do. I think I've got to be very careful because hummus is one of those like regionally funny things like Israeli hummus is very different than Lebanese hummus. Lebanese hummus is what we make it's lemony, a lot more fresh lemon, less tahini, Israeli hummus has a lot more tahini in it, and it doesn't really have the fresh zing like the product that we make. So to me, what makes it great is very fresh ingredients. From a package perspective. I think where it goes wrong for a lot of brands is they actually heat the product after it's blended and everything is you know, mixed in. When you think about what that does to food when you heat it up fresh lemon juice or even garlic, for example, like it really changes the flavor profile. And for me, I think it's just really important to capture that fresh, raw flavor of the ingredient. Marc Gutman 28:54 Before I forget, what's your favorite dipping apparatus into the hummus? What do you think's the best Dipper? Chris Kirby 29:01 Also not like historically culturally accepted? I wouldn't say but I'm a big raw broccoli. I like raw broccoli and cauliflower. For my homies Personally, Marc Gutman 29:12 I love that. So here we are. I imagine you're at this summer camp, you're renting out this kitchen you're if you've got like hummus everywhere. You're like trying to figure it out. What's going on? Are you just like, and you're going to school, by the way if I got this right, so like are you like, enthralled with this? Are you like just no one can take the wind out of your sails or any given point. Are you like, what did I get myself into? Like I'm putting a big bet on hummus right now. Like Like what was going on for you right there. Chris Kirby 29:38 It's funny, and I don't know why I felt so strongly about it. But I can't remember a moment where I had any hesitation that I was going to throw myself full fledged at this. I think in the beginning like what was so just fueling me was like having something of my own for the first time. And just being able to experience like these little success points along the way, like, we were at the farmers market, but also in the morning, I would deliver hummus to natural food stores and coffee shops and things. I just remember going in and seeing that just one had been purchased. And that was so energizing for me to just think that like, wow, like, I put that here yesterday, and now someone that I don't even know, like, pick that up, and it's in their refrigerator. And they're eating it right now. Like, wow, what a cool feeling that is. And so there was a bunch of stuff like that, you know, that I've heard other people call entrepreneurial currency that I just latched on to and really use to, to to energize me. Marc Gutman 30:44 And so that's all like, good and gets you going. But imagine like, you're selling at some coffee shops and some natural grocers, your your local, you're at the farmers market. At what point do you look at this thing and go like, it could be bigger than that, you know, this could actually be a business not like, a bit of a hobby, like when do you like really start to get the sense that maybe I'm onto something and I have to think to that, at some point, you're starting to gain maybe a little bit of tension from your competitors and other people in the space. So that's sometimes a good thing, because it means you're becoming relevant. But it also has to be a little scary. So like as you're growing like, what's going on? Are you thinking like, how do I take this to the next level or just kind of enjoying the ride? Chris Kirby 31:28 I'm always thinking about what's the next step? What's the next step? For sure. I think what really keyed me on to thinking that this really could be big was the reaction that I would get from people at the farmers market. I mean, anyone that I speak with now about how do I start a food or beverage, you know, business, I always recommend starting out in a channel where you are standing face to face with people who are potentially going to be your customers, and just sampling them and getting their reaction to getting their feedback. And in some cases, because if you do that enough, and you've got the right product, and you're getting the right reaction from people, and that alone will tell you like, wow, if I could just make this bigger, how could it not be successful? If I could do that the right way? I just felt like I was onto something for sure. And you know, also, I think it didn't hurt that I was in Ithaca, New York, which is a very granola kind of town. It's like the old saying, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere Well, in the hummus, business and ethic in New York. I think that's definitely true. Marc Gutman 32:40 And so what did you do? I mean, how did you make that leap? Like, how did you take it from farmers market to something bigger, like regional and then national? Chris Kirby 32:49 Yeah, very, very incremental steps. When I started, we had a seven day shelf life on the product. So it was like, how do we get it to 14 and then 20, and then 25 and 35? And same thing with distribution? It was what can I physically deliver out of the back of my car? And how many farmers markets can we go to in a weekend with more people to grow the business, which was all we could figure out how to do it the time, especially with a very, very short shelf life, it was really the only thing that we could do. But over time as awareness of what we were doing, and the brand and the product grew, so did the shelf life and so did the size of our business and revenue and profit and just was a great way to just fuel from within, you know, kind of take the scrappy, not go out and raise a ton of money like way too early route, and I'm so glad I did it that way. Marc Gutman 33:47 And is it self funded? Or do you end up going out and raising money to fuel the growth? Chris Kirby 33:52 We eventually did raise money from our manufacturer Actually, I moved on from the summer camp kitchen into a factory of my own which was like the dream like I built out this 10,000 square feet of like, it was insane. I felt like Willy Wonka. But after I like got into that and started managing it, it was insane and just way more than I could handle at the same time as everything else. So ultimately, I ended up partnering with le Desiree foods in Rochester, New York not far from us and Ithaca and after a year of just manufacturing the product they wanted in and couldn't think of a better more strategic partner than not Marc Gutman 34:31 so incredible. And so you started this business with nothing more than an idea started $200 a month rental in a summer camp kitchen. didn't really even know too much about hummus other than having experience from Sunday dinners. And here you are on the website it says you're the fastest growing hummus company in the nation which is an incredible accolade. So what does going from nothing to today? What does it go look like in terms of sighs and how much hummus Are you pumping out? Chris Kirby 35:04 Well, we're still very, very small and scrappy. We're a team of eight people, which is incredible to me. And I mean, to a degree, I think you could look at all of us very experienced and knowledgeable and smart, hard working all that stuff. But in one way or another, I think anybody on our team would admit, like, I have no business doing what I do every day sometimes, which is, I think, a healthy thing. So we very much have that like small, scrappy mentality, which I love. And we went from that farmers market stand and a couple stores in Africa to today, we're at 7500. stores nationwide, and how much how much do we produce? It's a really good question, I would say, of the containers that you buy in the store, 10 ounces, you know, 25 to 30,000 of those a week at this point, and growing. Marc Gutman 35:56 So does that like blow your mind? Like, would you say that number that is? Chris Kirby 35:59 Like crazy. It's it's not? It's not? I used to, you know, well, we used to apply every label by hand. And actually, when we started, we didn't buy labels, because we couldn't afford them. We just put paprika oil on the top for a little bit of like branding, and to think of going from there to where we are now is definitely mind blowing, in hindsight, Marc Gutman 36:21 In terms of that volume of actual packages, like how do you purchase chickpeas? Like is it by the bushel is it by the crazy by the ton, Chris Kirby 36:32 It's by the train load, actually, our facility has a rail that comes in to the back of it. And it's awesome, because when I first started buying chickpeas, I would like go to restaurant depot and like get a sack of chickpeas. And then eventually I got hooked up with some growers out in Washington State in Pullman, Washington, actually. And they would put it on a rail car from Pullman to this depot in Chicago, and then we would buy it, buy the pallet from there. And yeah, we've moved up in the food chain. And now we just get the rail car strength sent straight into the factory, which is really cool. Marc Gutman 37:11 How many rail cars of chickpeas are coming your way? on a regular basis? Chris Kirby 37:16 I'd have to check on that. So don't quote me. But I think we're definitely moving through multiple rail cars a month at this point. Marc Gutman 37:23 That's so cool. And what's hard about this like, like you said, it's simple sounds like it's all gone pretty much to plan but like What don't we know, like what's really hard about doing what you're doing and maintaining ethika Hama spray and ethika hummus brand? Chris Kirby 37:39 Yeah, if I portrayed it as overly simplified, I can guarantee you that it has not been just so many challenges that I never thought in the moment, sometimes I would be able to overcome that just, you know, end up ended up working out, I would say, what's been hard for me consistently throughout the business is learning how to grow myself professionally and as a leader, as fast as the business has grown. And as fast as my team that I rely on needs me to grow and really step into that role the best that I can. Marc Gutman 38:15 So how are you doing that? What kind of things are you doing to fuel your own growth and to become a better leader? Because I think that's something that a lot of entrepreneurs, look, none of us are born entrepreneurs number is born with this knowledge, we learn it, we educate ourselves, we come up a lot of times out of need, rather than you know, being ahead of time. It's like we're catching up or something of that nature. But like so what are you doing to stay up to speed and make sure that you're developing as a leader, Chris Kirby 38:40 I spend more time now just not just thinking and not feeling like I've got to make decisions and do things like so quickly. And so just off the cuff sometimes. So I've definitely slowed down a little bit. And I've really tried to not react to things or overreact to things as much as I am naturally inclined to do. I've also surrounded myself with some great people, and I could name names, but everyone on my team and even some people outside of the team that I'm more open with in terms of weaknesses now so that they can understand that and they can help backfill and I don't know, this is a long winded, probably more complex answer a complicated answer than I wish I could give. But I don't know, I just if I can sum it up, I've just tried to be more self aware and transparent about what that actually looks like. Marc Gutman 39:35 And as it relates to the business, like what are you most excited about right now? Is there something happening with Ithaca or something that you see in the future that is keeping you going and keeping you excited? Chris Kirby 39:46 Well, our mission is to introduce America to its new favorite brand of hummus and we've got some proof points that we're actually like really doing that and I think that's what gets us all all excited on the team at ethika. hummus is thinking about like, the success that we've been able to demonstrate on a mid size scale not full blown quite yet and dreaming about like, well, what happens when our distribution is four times the size that it is now. And we've had that much more time in market to generate that much more awareness and that much more trial? What kind of impact is that going to have on the category and on the diets of Americans in the grander scheme? Marc Gutman 40:34 Is that the metric? Like Is that how you will know that you're America's favorite brand of hummus? Chris Kirby 40:40 Well, I would say, share of category would be that metric. But how will we know that we've accomplished that goal? I don't know. I think we just day by day focused on what can we do today, to grow a little bit more and keep pushing the ball down the field. Marc Gutman 40:56 And as we come to a close here, Chris, like, I want you to think back to that young boy who is watching Julia Child is watching those cooking shows and just thinking, being intrigued by cooking. And what if he ran into you today? What do you think he'd say, if he saw what you were doing? Chris Kirby 41:14 I don't think he would fully understand it. And probably just think it's like boring. Start cutting up some chickens or something so that I could this is more exciting, you know, but at the same time, I think if he would probably think it's pretty cool. You know, if he really understood it, and could think about it the way I think about it now, I certainly do. And I'm having a lot of fun and very fulfilling and rewarding a lot of hard work, but I feel grateful and blessed every day. Marc Gutman 41:44 In that is Chris Kirby, founder and CEO of Ithaca hummus. As I reflect on our conversation, so much of what Chris shared resonated with me. But if I were to highlight one thought, it was his comment about making the switch from being a chef from declaring that his dream had changed. And he wanted to do something different. And while it could be labeled as a failure, it wasn't. It was merely a change in what he wanted in his evolving world view. And as I think back on my own pivots, my own changes that I've at times labeled as failures. This is a resonant reminder that they weren't failures at all. Just a change in what I wanted. A big thank you to Chris Kirby and Ithaca Hummus team. We can't wait to see you become the number one hummus brand in America and then the world. We will link to all things Chris Kirby and Ithaca Hummus in the shownotes. And if you know of a guest who should appear on our show, please drop me a line at podcast@wildstory.com our best guests like Chris come from referrals from past guests and our listeners. Well that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode a lot big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny. ‍

Not all filler words are created equal. Did you know there's a difference between "ah" and "um"? Yeah, neither did I! As a podcast editor, I hear people speak, a lot. All the nuances in their voice, the words they choose, and how they present themselves. And in this work, when I'm scrolling in the forums, other editors gripe about people's overuse of filler words like "um", "ah", and "like" all the time.  Alexandra D'Arcy is my first guest on the podcast. She is a Professor of Linguistics and the Director of the Sociolinguistics Research Lab at the University of Victoria, where she is also the Associate Dean Research for the Faculty of Humanities. Alexandra debunks the notion that 'like" is a modern crutch word used only by the young and flighty. In fact, it's more complicated than you think. Her book is titled "Discourse-Pragmatic Variation in Context; 800 Years of LIKE". That is a mouthful for me, so I asked her to dumb it down for me who's only been to radio school, not an academic, and wanted to know what the heck does discourse-pragmatic variation even mean!?!?! We discuss the many jobs that "like" has, the criticism of women's language, and what really is modern language. Here are Alexandra D'Arcy's "like" examples: FINAL LIKE (adverb, ‘as it were') He was quite gentle and quiet LIKE. (Corpus of Historical American English/Uncle Tom's Cabin/1852) We need to smarten it up a bit LIKE. (Toronto, woman, born 1927) DISCOURSE MARKER (adverb, ‘for example, ‘approximately', ‘in this way', ‘let me illustrate', etc.) They never went out in a small canoe. LIKE, we went from here to Cape Beale. They had great large war canoes. (Victoria BC, woman, born 1875) Och, they done all types of work. LIKE they ploughed and harrowed. (Southwest Tyrone, man, born 1943) It's probably about a bit longer than this room. LIKE it's probably like that wide and like a bit longer. (Victoria BC, boy, born 2006) ALSO THE DISCOURSE MARKER, but after a verb that introduces quoted speech He said LIKE “Stored water is just like stored dollars.” (Victoria BC, man, born 1935) Imagine being told by your parents LIKE “We know you have it in you.” (Victoria BC, man, born 1959) DISCOURSE PARTICLE (adverb, but put focus on what follows or allows speaker to mitigate claim on truth or authority) Well right in front of that they had boards LIKE built across. (Victoria BC, woman, born 1874) They were just LIKE sitting, waiting to die. (Scotland, man, born 1925) His father had LIKE a restaurant cafe in Regent Street. (New Zealand, man, born 1955) Links mentioned in the episode: Connect with Alexandra D'Arcy on Twitter @LangMaverick https://twitter.com/langmaverick?lang=en "Wordslut" by Amanda Montell https://bookshop.org/books/wordslut-a-feminist-guide-to-taking-back-the-english-language/9780062868886 Continue the conversation with me! Find more secrets and leave a voicemail at http://www.VisibleVoicePodcast.com/ Email Mary at VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com Engage with the show on Instagram at @VisibleVoicePodcast https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions/ To learn more about or work with Mary, click on over at http://www.OrganizedSound.ca.

BGBS 041: Jay Ferracane | Angry Bovine | Design Is Not About the Designer Jay Ferracane is a former skateboard punk, current gentleman rancher, and most importantly, a gifted graphic designer. Jay launched the design consultancy, Angry Bovine, with an honor for placing brand authenticity at the forefront of design and decision making. As you may be able to tell so far, Jay is a multi-talented man. He taught design for over 8 years at the University of Colorado's grad program formerly known as BDW and founded the creative speaking series, “Caffeinated Mornings”, which ran for almost 7 years.  Here you'll hear Jay's beginnings with design, from watching his mother paint in fascination for hours to piecing together DIY coordinated BMX outfits with the neighborhood kids. Jay emphasizes how diving into a variety of industries and always being aware of the processes around him have influenced his style and creativity. He opens our eyes to the beauty of designing based on what is unique to you rather than what the norm “allows”, inspiring us to ask ourselves, how can we all be more fearlessly authentic? In this episode, you'll learn... Growing up as a military kid living in Hawaii and Japan, Jay learned that the world was much bigger than he thought Jay discovered the name for Angry Bovine while watching the Mad Cow disease in a breakroom of a small ad shop Design is rarely about the person who designed it, whereas art is mostly about the person who made that art As a teenager, Jay would cut out every table of contents of Transworld Skateboard Magazine and wallpaper his room with them. This experience was one of his earliest design influences During art school, Jay kept adding typography to his paintings, which led him to stray from traditional art towards design Jay was fortunate enough to start his career designing annual reports for Yahoo and Motorola by applying to a job that no one else would Design is simply making communication in a creative form A company that makes manufacturing software is no less sexy than Nike because of their value and the connection they have with a group of people Jay currently lives on a ranch with his family for his wife's nonprofit to save horses (and they even have cows now. Full circle, right?) Although design is meant to be objective, at some point creatively your work can become subjective because of the attachment to your ideas When designing for a brand, it is important to ask what is unique to you rather than following the mold of what is “compulsory” in the industry Jay thinks that the coolest thing about being a designer is seeing the lasting impact in what you do Resources  Angry Bovine Website Jay Ferracane LinkedIn Jay Ferracane Facebook Jay Ferracane Instagram Quotes [43:31] I design every day, that's my problem solving methodology. [1:03:27] I am proud of the fact that I get to work in lots and lots of industries, because again, back to that point of objectivity, and every brand is its own thing, even if it's in the same industry it's really important to kind of start to look at and go, “How are we going to solve this problem? What's unique to you guys? And let's just take it from that standpoint.” Right? Versus “Here's what everybody is doing in this industry, can you make us just like them?” [1:06:32] Brands should be about how you run your company. Logos are the signals that bring people to the company. Podcast Transcript Jay Ferracane 0:02 We were always taught that art creates visual problems and design solves visual problems. And I think that's a bit of an inaccuracy or simple oversimplification. But art is usually about how you feel about something. Whereas design really does force you to be super objective, take into account your research and information and display that back to somebody in an engaging and useful kind of way. And I think that's the biggest difference is design, in most cases, and you can never say never, the design in most cases is rarely about the person who designed it. Art. Most of the time is about the person who made that art. Marc Gutman 0:48 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Backstory. We are talking to Jay Ferracane from angry bovine. Jay is a designer and creative and as you'll hear in today's episode, he has some very strong ideas about design, its purpose and place in business, and perhaps some advice to up-and-coming designers. And if you want to know how I feel about Jay's work well, when it was time to do the visual identity for the Wildstory rebrand. I called up Jay and begged him to do our identity. That's all you really need to know. And since then, we've worked together on several projects, and I consider him a good friend. his bio tells us that he's a graphic designer and creative director with over 25 years of experience. In his work and his approach been recognized with many awards and accolades and most recently, his mobile design studio was featured in designboom, outside magazine and the book, the new nomads, in addition to teaching design for over eight years at sea use grad program that is Colorado University, formerly known as BDW. He also founded the creative speaking series, caffeinated mornings, which ran for almost seven years. If you ask him what he does for a living, he says, I draw pictures and share. But deep within those pictures, letter forms, compositions and stories, his reasoning based and critical thinking in business needs, turning ideas into defendable, objective designs and belief systems that people can rely on. Sounds pretty cool. Our conversation waters from Jays upbringing as a military kid, his youth as a skateboard punk, current day gentlemen, rancher and the difference between art and design and the current trends in design today. I had an awesome time, and I think you will, too. And this is his story. I am so excited for today's podcast because I am here with the one and only Jay Ferracane both my friend and colleague, we I someone I like tremendously yet we also do work together, which isn't always a good combination. But in our case, it is. Jay, welcome to the show. Jay Ferracane 3:35 Well, thank you for having me, Marc. And you once told me, you love me more than pancakes. And I don't know what that means. But I believe it is the highest praise I've ever gotten from anybody. So thank you for loving me more than pancakes. Marc Gutman 3:50 In my world that is very, very high praise. So you are welcome. And thanks for coming on the show. I'm so excited to talk about all things design and just creative space in general. But before we get into that, why don't you just give us a quick sense of who you are. Go ahead and just introduce yourself, what you're up to these days and what your business is. Jay Ferracane 4:13 Yep, I'm Jay Ferracane. I formally trained graphic designer. My my background is a little bit of an interesting one, I think and is I started out in the rough and tumble world of annual report design coming right out of design school I worked in I was really fortunate to work in an area of California in Palo Alto back in the 90s. When that creative scene there was just fantastic and open and actually reminds me a lot of what we see here in the Front Range today. cut my teeth in print, then went to work for probably if not the first one of the first five maybe digital agencies only in the Bay Area studio called baby grand and we were building websites for companies and my background in AI Reports I started taking that those experiences and putting them on those little CDs that started coming with annual reports. I don't know if you've ever had the displeasure of checking one of those out. And then fast forward, I became a creative director at a few software companies in the Bay Area, which gave me a really interesting lens on what the client is really looking for from design, and how we can help them do their jobs better. That was a big turning point for me and my thinking around design. And then I returned to the agency world for a little bit. We went into a big recession, I made a move, I started my firm, which is Angry Bovine, which I refer to as a design guide, I guess, Co-Op, where I partner with lots of great people like you yourself, what developers, filmmakers, all that kind of stuff, to help my clients tell their stories and build the best communication we can for them. And I've been doing that for the past 12 years now. Marc Gutman 5:57 So where did the name Angry Bovine come from? Jay Ferracane 6:02 Um, I don't want you to be disappointed, but it's not going to be nearly as cool as you think angry bovine started out, I was working at a small ad shop in the Bay Area. And this was one of the first.com boom arrows. And this agency I was working at, worked on a really diverse client base. And it was also the first place I worked at where we didn't have secretaries. We had office administrators, and we were working on a used car account, and that used car count. We weren't allowed to call it a use car. So we had to have the previously owned automobiles. And I don't know, I was angsty and whatever a younger designer at that time, and I had been building portfolios around my name. And that wasn't really a cool thing yet. And so again, my me being a designer, my striving for objectivity all the time is I felt like whenever I build a portfolio around my name, the work that was in it became more about me. So in one of my angsty periods at complaining about what I was working on, probably at the agency, I was in the break room, and mad cow was breaking out of the UK. And I, I said to somebody, can you imagine here with all the political sensitivity around words and things like that, that in the very near future, we might not be able to say Mad Cow at a cocktail party without offending somebody? And I said, Yeah, you would probably have to say something like, have you heard about that Angry Bovine disease, it's terrible. And then a light bulb went off in my head, because it was just enough of a non sequitur, paired with a recent, at that time, a recent special I had seen on prison prisons, where they were putting inmates in pink rooms, to calm them down. And I just thought the contrast between magenta as a corporate color pink, and, and this name, Angry Bovine would be the perfect non sequitur to provide basically a plate to put all of my work on. Because it didn't really mean anything. Now, it is funny, because once I tell that story, you're like, Oh, you just made the name up. And that's what most naming is. But in the punk rock skateboard kid in me does have a twinge of pride when I go into a physical meeting. And somebody says, A Jay from angry brain is here. It's just a funny thing for people to recite. And remember, so it as non sequitur, as it would, as it was, it has kind of paid off in at least memory for a lot of people. So that's how the name came about. And I know you were wishing you asked that question. No, Marc Gutman 8:33 No, I'm thrilled that I asked that question. And, you know, it doesn't surprise me at all, that you're walking around as a younger designer with a bunch of angst about mad cow disease and how it was being portrayed. So you know, that that makes me wonder. I mean, did you grow up wanting to be a designer was that always you know, on your radar, like what was like eight-year-old j, like, Jay Ferracane 8:54 Oh, eight-year-old Jay was kind of a, I wouldn't I don't want to say nightmare. But I definitely want to say like, I was a super, this is gonna shock you add completely, like diagnosed? Yeah, I was one of the kids. I had to take Ritalin for a long time. But my mom did art. And math was really hard for me the concentration on that, but my mom did art and her uncle or her brother, my uncle, built models and the combination I think of those two things, people with a DD have these periods of hyper focus as much as we are completely distracted. So if there was something that wasn't genuinely interested in an eight-year-old Jay sitting in an English class, would hear somebody break a pencil and I would get up and run over to give them a new pencil, not caring that there was maybe a test going on or something like that. But I could also come home and watch my mom paint for three hours and be totally interested in that or work on a model. And, you know, comparing it to reference pages of my thought my dad was a marine aviator and so In my life growing up I my reference materials, if you will, things that were around my house and stuff were a lot of books on war, a lot of book books on aircraft. And it fascinated me the insignias and paint schemes. So I think somewhere in there, the DNA for me to become a designer was being set up really early, I never had the hand to be a really fine artist. So I think painting early on for me, it was also messy, and not fast enough. And there was something as I progressed, even I went to art school to be a painter, because that's kind of I was always the guy in my, my cliques and crews growing up, that was the guy that was doing air quotes, art, because it was just how I was expressing myself that way. But I didn't know there was trades. Were kind of stuff. I Well, you know, skateboarding for one, you know, your board would become a canvas, the first thing I do, you know, especially once it got scraped up is, you'd re-spray paint it, or you start writing on your grip tape, and you put band names on there. And then all of a sudden, you cross into the music, you start listening to particularly the music I was into, you know, starting out around the time, I was like, you know, 13 or so I had Well, growing up in a military family is a little bit of an interesting thing, because you are somewhat transient, so you don't have lots of stuff. But the stuff you have you sit with it in such great detail that you really absorb all of it. And so we moved to this one location. And it was it's a kind of a fascinating thing to think about military neighborhoods, because you you may reconnect with somebody that you live near three years ago, but then all of a sudden, new influences would come. So I was living in Hawaii at the time. And kids from Washington DC started showing up. And this is like 80s. Like, punk rock is big time in. In Washington, DC bands like minor threat and youth brigade. And these kinds of bands are making music and we don't have access to it. So we're looking at our friends who are bringing these new vinyls and things like that. So you'd go home and make a T shirt or something like that. So I think my creativity started in all of that kind of exposure, if you will, my mom kind of made it accessible because she was doing art in our house all the time. So I'm like, Oh, that's just what you do. Her brother, like I said, who frequently visited us was always kind of, he would like help me draw, you know, cooler airplanes. And then he would talk we would talk about model building. And then like I said, that kind of stretched its way into my skateboarding life. You know, I had these tools, I had paints, I had mark-making tools, if you will, and I just started to ride on my shoes, and you'd ride on your jeans. And like I said, you'd make your own t-shirts. And it was a very DIY kind of life for me, because like, I even remember, we got into BMX for a little bit, and we'd look at magazines, and you know, you'd have these guys in these, like cool, you know, coordinated outfits and stuff. And me and the neighbor, kid, I remember us trying to sew our own. Like, you remember the movie rad. Like we tried to make our own BMX outfits, and sewing and iron on and that kind of stuff. And we were just making our world and you know, the coolest thing was is we weren't asking anybody's permission, can we go buy this thing we just kind of like, didn't know any better. So we go do it. Marc Gutman 13:13 And so we're kind of artists was your mother, Jay Ferracane 13:15 My mom painted a lot in oil. And I remember her trying her to him this to do portraiture and stuff like that. She was always trying to paint pictures of me and my sister. Gosh, I know she has this there's an unfinished painting somewhere in my attic that is of me and my sister that are literally that they're probably I don't wanna say the canvas, it was Canvas boards. And that, you know, they're probably half an inch thick, because he just kept trying to like, fix stuff and navia in just telling you that I think that probably is another trait that I've learned and it's been one of my successes in InDesign is is that adequately talented probably is how I would describe myself but I'll generally Outlast most people through the most enduring times and events. And I'll just keep trying. And my mom was a lot like that, too. Marc Gutman 14:00 So and So where do you say that you're actually from you mentioned you moved around a lot. I mean, is there a place where you actually feel like you were from? Are you a bit of a nomad? Jay Ferracane 14:10 I think I'm a bit of a nomad. But I would say a lot of my respect, and well a lot of my respect and ethics around how people should behave and stuff was kind of really formed in in Hawaii growing up in Hawaii because I was a minority there. And and it's in its in its tribal in the sense of you go to surf at a spot, you've got to show respect to locals and get in skateboarding was the same way you go to a local skate spot. And you can't just be this loud mouth jerk that shows up and pushes everybody out of the way. You've got to, you know, you've got to be somewhat complimentary and respectful. And I think that that's one thing that you know, I really took with me and after living in Hawaii, I moved I moved at 16 years old, I moved from Hawaii to Japan. All places. And that was a really interesting experience because in some way, you're in a foreign land, right? Like, literally you can go off base on bases like, it's like living, you know, where you live today, you've got your supermarket, you've got a convenience store, you can go get sodas, there's usually like, you know, hamburgers and whatever. But going off base, literally, we jumped the fence, and you'd have your skateboard and some money in your pocket to ride the bus wherever. And it was kind of the coolest license as a kid. So I would say I was probably my most formative years were spent in Hawaii. But I think moving to Asia made me really realize that like, oh, the world's a lot bigger than just where we live. And then I came back to California at a fairly young age to start going to school and stuff like that. And really just started to learn how to like, take care of myself, too. So I think all three of those areas in combination have made me who, who I am today, a lot of people like look at me, meet me and they're like, dude, you're California through and through. But I really think a lot of my background comes from what I learned about in Hawaii and Marc Gutman 16:06 So you're like a Hawaii Asia Cali kind of? Jay Ferracane 16:10 Yeah, definitely Pacific. Maybe that's how I describe myself. Marc Gutman 16:15 At that time when you're when you're growing up, but you know, you're you mentioned that you're, you know, expressing yourself through skate culture, and rad with the greatest bike race Park feature of all time, the series that you a ride through them off the diving board spoon, but we'll leave that for another podcast, the AI? Are you getting in any formal art training? Are you taking art classes in school? Like, what do you have any role models to say, Hey, I can make a career out of this? Jay Ferracane 16:46 Oh, yeah, well, role models, probably less so. But man, there was a lot of signals pointing at my path. And I recently had this discussion with the guy who runs an agency out in New York. And we were kind of both talking about being a DD and growing up and the things we were interested in. And the add on that probably the thing that I've learned that add the way the Add mind is, is that we have, we are able to process stuff a lot faster than most people. The problem is, is it gets kind of archived, it comes in and gets archived in like what they call midterm storage. So it's kind of hard to access. So that's why a lot of people add aren't graded like things like math, they can do it just takes a little bit more work. But back to your question, the things that were I was absorbing so much digesting every single skateboarding magazine, I could get my hands on every single surfing magazine. I was in terms of influences. When I went to I think my parents maybe even realized that like, hey, at least he can draw, what are what are trades that he could do. And so when I lived in Hawaii, there was a fantastic drafting program in our school, which I think points to some of the technical work that I do today. And I remember the the guy who was tough that ran the drafting program, and literally the idea was, you could leave school there and maybe go to a junior college for a year or two and just be a draftsperson. Right? Like, that was a big industry. While he was going through a building boom, they needed people to draw plans. So this guy just basically it was like almost like a trade school. And so I think my first experience with like, art as a trade was probably be my path to becoming a draftsman. Now I quickly realized I didn't necessarily have the attention to detail that was required for that job. And so then I probably moved on to art. But before I ever knew about design, at this time living in Hawaii, I would get Transworld skateboarding. And every Transworld skateboarding magazine, I got the first thing I did was like, cut out the table of contents. And I actually had to talk about this at a Colorado ad day or something like that, they said was in the early influences in your design career. And I, I kind of thought back to this moment of like, whatever it was that grabbed my attention on these table of contents. And I found out later, there's no internet this time, right? I can't Google, who designs table of contents for trade. Transworld. Again, back to my ATD brain, I probably could have looked in there and read, oh, creative director, David Carson, because it's probably in the masthead or you know, the publishing information in the front cover. But anyway, I cut these all these out. And I realized that they were the super expressive forms of information design when you really think about it. And it was funny because I had the opportunity to meet David Carson, and I told him about this experience being, you know, time I was like 13 to 16 years old. I cut out literally almost every table of contents out of tree at Transworld and was progressively wallpapering my room with them. And I told him that at a book signing once and literally, he pulled a beer out from under the table and we shot the shit for about five minutes until his handler had to like drag me off. But we started talking about surfing and all sorts of stuff because he served. But I think my earliest influences was drafting and then those experiences with Transworld skateboarding magazine. Now the problem is, is like, and I think this is the coolest thing that designers today is if they get excited or inspired by someone, they have this ability to find out who that is, and they in through social media, there's a good chance they can talk to those people. You know, if I ever found out who David Carson was, at that time, you know, the act of getting in touch with him would have been vastly different. So I was inspired by his work for sure. I just didn't know what category it came from, or where it was headed. And then, you know, here I am, 25 years later. And I'm, like, still talking about it, because it literally made a huge impact on me. And, you know, Marc Gutman 20:45 I was gonna ask you a little bit more about where you went next, and kind of your first job, but you keep using this term design design designers like what is design? Like? Like, like, how do you define that? And what is a designer? Jay Ferracane 20:58 Hmm? Well, maybe this will help me do a definition for you. When I went to art school, I had this kind of, I'm gonna call it a three step, making air gestures here that you can't see. But I had this three steps experience in school, I went to art school. And then at some point in art school, I've always been a guy that just likes to go to work. And at some point in art school, I said, When do I get to go to work? Meaning like, when do I stop coming to classes? When do I stop dicking around, when do I start to do some real stuff. And then, after enough conversations, they realize like most art students just go back to school, like, you get to maybe get a grant and you become a graduate student, or you apply for a doctorate, and you do some sort of thesis in art. And that wasn't for me, like I really didn't like school. And the irony is I teach today, and I think that's probably some sort of cosmic punishment for the way that I acted in school. And that's, that is another podcast. Um, but then I went, somebody said, Hey, I kept putting messages in my painting, like, I paint words and stuff in there. And my art teachers kind of get on my case, because they were like, Hey, you need to let your viewers you know, paint the light, fill out the story. And I'm like, but I, this is the message I want to I want to tell. And so then they're like, have you ever taken any typography courses? And I'm like, I don't I only think I can even spell that. But what is that? And so then I went and did a typography course. And then somebody had told me, hey, by the way, if you kind of like, don't want to do fine art, have you ever thought about illustration, we had a really good illustration program at the at San Jose State. So I'm in illustration, I'm doing a little bit of typographic a little bit of illustration. And then it dawns on me, I'm like, okay, here I am. In this situation, again, I want to go to work every day. I'm like, who tells an illustrator to make work? And they're like, Oh, that's usually a creative director, art director, designer guy. And I'm like, Okay, cool. Where's that department. And so then I went to design in the design department, and the design department is sales, a state at that time was really impacted, it was one of the, you know, they would take like a student of, I'm gonna say, at least a couple hundred students, maybe 150 200 students, and then from that, one class would be admitted every year. And that was somewhere between 30 and 45 students, and it was all done through a portfolio review, compulsory portfolio review, basically, everybody was putting up the same amount of work, it was really kind of like a hard deal to get into. And then once you got in there, it was this very international, Swiss kind of design style, international style of design being taught. So now coming to the definition of design, is really it was about making communication, that could that it was really about making communication. That was that's what it really what it simply came down to, and there was an art aspect to it. But there was also some creativity in the side of making it not being cliched creating engagement, working to the grid. You know, we were only using like, you know, three fonts at that time. really early computer days, by the way, when I'm doing all this stuff. So Gosh, in in the way that I would define design is, you know, for me, it's it's a objective visual communication. Marc Gutman 24:12 And how is that different than art? Like how does that differ from art? Jay Ferracane 24:16 Well, it actually at this school, there was kind of, I wouldn't say there was like a rivalry. It's not like cats. And you know, we're like snapping at each other down the hallway, you know, we're gonna fight or anything. But there was this division between the art students and the design students. And we were always taught that art creates visual problems and design solves visual problems. And I think that's a bit of an inaccuracy or a simple oversimplification. But art is usually about how you feel about something. Whereas design really does force you to be super objective, take into account your research and information and display that back to somebody in an engaging and useful kind of way. And I think that's the biggest difference is Is design in most cases, and I can, you can never say never. The design in most cases is rarely about the person who designs it art most of the time is about the person who made that art. Marc Gutman 25:11 Well, that's a good definition that I can understand and easily differentiate between the two. And so you discover this, shall I say, utilitarian way of using design to make a career to communicate the things you want to. Now that all sounds really cool and hip, and you and you're kind of coming out of the skate kind of culture? Like, how do you get into annual report design, Jay Ferracane 25:38 The entire report job was really funny. And it was, um, so the era of when you got a job. And when I was in college, you'd go down to the lower floor and outside the counselor's office, there'd be a board full of, you know, eight and a half by 11 sheets with the tabs off the bottom, and you have a job description in there, and you'd pull the tab off and you'd go find a payphone. And you'd call a place and say, Hey, I'd like to apply or do an interview, or you drive over there and drop off a little sample portfolio. So anyway, I go downstairs, and this wall of all these job postings, there is one that is completely untouched. And so I pulled the entire thing off the wall, and take the entire thing with me and go and call this number. So thinking like, oh, no one else is going to call this. What I didn't know is the word on the street. Within the design parliament, everybody knew how hostile this agency was this really small boutique agency in Palo Alto was, and that's why nobody was applying for internships there. And so my dumb ass goes and grabs, it makes a call. They're like, Yeah, come in next Wednesday, blah, blah, blah, I show them my portfolio, which at this time is primarily illustration, and fine art stuff. But the sheer fact that I had been painting words and stuff in there kind of got me into a little bit of a design category. And it had some type of graphic work in there. And so I go start there. And literally the second day at the studio working for this really small, like, she was maybe five foot tall, it was into couture clothing, she was just a presence. And she was not nice at all, at but I learned how to keep growing up in the military, you just learned how to keep your head down. And you just go and if people are terse with you, you just kind of move on. And it's no big deal. I was pretty used to it. So I go there. And I'm like, gosh, this isn't, you know, that fun, but I'm learning quite a bit. Well, day two, I show up and the entire staff of the agency quits. And so I'm in design school getting ready to get out of design school, and at this time, everybody, there'd be this Exodus every year from the design school, and everyone would go out into the market. And you all have the same portfolio. And as a guy who just wanted to go to work. I'm like, Well, if I stick it out here, I'll have like a couple pieces that will be like my own, it will be real world work, which will make me stand out in the marketplace. So that year, I literally day one, I go and sit with three designers over the course of the day day. And they tell me someone was working on like the Yahoo annual report. So that's their IPO that tells you how long ago this was. We were doing a project for Motorola. And we were doing a project for food irradiation, brands. Now my career gets into a lot of industries like that, that I end up in most people meet me and they go, Oh, you're from California. And you work in the either the record or like motocross industry month, I work on a lot of enterprise software, or a lot of intangible product kind of things. So anyway, I immediately am given three projects that I have to take to print from my second day on the job because there's nobody else left to do it. So talk about your secret to success is when opportunity presents itself and you take advantage of it. And over the course of like the next month or so working at this place. I did take these in I got to finish out these reports. I got to put them in my portfolio. My illustration background helped. Because I was able to, particularly for the food irradiation brand that we were working on. I had to do these like really kind of like abstract vector drawings, that kind of communicated elements that they were doing with their science, their quote, science. And I don't know it was just that that's kind of how my career got started. Now mind you, this little studio sat in the middle of what was a really creative hotspot at that time. I was working next door to IDEO. So I would bump into people at you know the coffee line and shoot the breeze with them about what they were working on. It was really open kind of awesome community there. But that formative experience of my first job working at an annual reports taught me a lot about design because the debt the information density was off the charts. A lot of times you were if an if a company was publishing a report, they didn't have a great year you were actually really doing one of the most elegant apology letters you possibly could, um, or if they did do a great year, you were trying to show like, you know, you had some real opportunity to make them, you know, superstars and the people that were investing in them who got these books feel really validated. So it was kind of a cool tool that any reports also sitting and we're a part of brand that I'm really excited about that, like, they mean a lot to the people who are connected to that business, much more than like a consumer would be, or something like that. So anyway, I learned a lot there. And then, like I said, from there, I did gun work, I went right into a much more digital job after that, but it was very early on. So Marc Gutman 30:36 You talked about it a little bit, but what was it like in the Bay Area at that time? Like what's going on? Like, what's the general scene? Oh, you know, how's it how's it changed? Jay Ferracane 30:46 Yeah, so I would say, you know, I still have clients in the Bay Area. So I have a, at least a somewhat of a lens, you know, I live here in Colorado now. But, you know, prior to COVID times, I was, I was flying back and forth, and my wife's family's from there. So we visit quite a bit. But I would say the early 90s, through the 2000s was like a golden age of, particularly technology. And then that design that came off of that was it was just an amazing place to be in and around really liberal thinking, a lot of openness about ideas. And I think like any, you know, location or industry, for that matter. You know, in the years I've seen it, you know, things have gotten a little bit more conservative, and that might be the scale of business and, and, frankly, the wealth that some of these organizations have, but I think it really, you know, some of the, that period in the 90s 2000s, that's a couple.com booms in there. And there was just this optimism and hope around like, Hey, you have an idea, you can bring that to bear. And there's just so much like, work to be had, and so many things that we got to explain, really for the first time to people so that they could understand the value of these businesses. And that was a really fun thing to me, you know, where I have friends who went and worked at Nike and all that kind of stuff. And I look at the work they do. And it's beautiful. And it's, you know, it's it's something that like every man can connect to, but because of the clients that I just happened to start working in the industries that I started getting a lot of exposure to or experience in, I realized they were no less sexy than a Nike, you know, a company that makes manufacturing software, someone needs that thing, they have a value. And if you can convince somebody, and particularly in the enterprise space, the funny thing about that is, is a lot of times, there's a lot of choices, or at least a few choices for a decision-maker to make. And so my stance on whatever plans I got involved with was way before, you know, making b2b stuff feel like consumer, that was always my bet. I'm like, hey, if someone's going to come here and learn about this particular software that you know, most of the Fortune 500 runs on, but my mom and dad have never heard of, I'm going to try and explain it in a way that feels more like, I don't know, Bang and Olufsen or some other, you know, high-level consumer brand that has a technical background, but still makes a really rad product. I don't see any difference between the two and that was received really well, at that time. And it was such a fun part to be. It was such a, I don't know, it was very formative to be around that time. I think that optimism and connectedness that also this idea that anything is possible, really was like a resonant there at that time. And it was a cool part a cool thing to be a part of. Marc Gutman 33:45 Yeah, I think it's so cool that that was like your training ground that that golden age of tack. And it's interesting, you know, we've had Marty neumeier, who is on on the podcast and considered kind of the godfather of brand, at least brand theory and in articulating a lot of stuff here. And he cut his teeth, designing software boxes, you know, that's his thing. Like it was same idea Jay Ferracane 34:05 Podcast was great. By the way, I really enjoyed his talk and where he took that because Marty and I bet Well, obviously he's working at a galactically higher level than I was at that time. Um, but it was funny to hear him talking about things because I remember those spheres of influence cut rippling through the area. And that was another really cool thing that was happening in the Bay Area at that time is the connections between people I knew of Marty and there were some other great agencies, you know, sapient, at the time was doing some really awesome work. But we actually had a couple of really interesting opportunities to meet guys that went on to do things like salesforce.com and stuff like that, and just hear that because they were advisors at companies. I was working on their brands, and you hear just these little nuggets of things that like, Hey, why don't we try this like, I remember the I'm trying to think of his name that it was he was the marketingguy@salesforce.com, like in the very beginning. And I remember him walking through me through the value of long scroll homepages. And I was like, it was just a fascinating thing, because that wasn't a thing at that time. And when he walked me through the reasoning coming back to, hey, what's design should always have purpose or reason. And when he kind of communicated Well, it depends on the goals of your company. But if one of your goals your company, is is to basically, you know, increase time on your website and do this kind of thing, you give them more content, though, like that. That's, we weren't even thinking like that. And then when Marty started talking about like, thinking through software boxes, and things like that, I even had a really similar experience where I started talking to the people that were using the product. So again, I had some really interesting experiences, not only from people who were doing really great thinking and work, but then I learned to go and ask to put my ego aside and go ask people, how do you use this, you know, empathy, I don't even think was really being talked too much about InDesign at that time. But going and talking to people and like finding out how do you use the software? How does it get shipped? What's that do to the bottom line of a product costs? And we're, you know, Marty's job was to make software more appealing on the Fry's shelf. And I think most software companies after that followed that suit, even though they weren't selling software to consumers, so like, I worked on an enterprise level, install software, like we're guys, we were making PCs, we're installing software. And so you don't need this big $23 box or whatever it was, and you know, what, how cool would it be if you could just mail it a FedEx envelope? So we really thought through some of those problems. And I think because, again, some of the things that we were just starting to listen to and learn and then challenge, just again, kind of goes back to the world of DIY and making, you know, minor threat t-shirts for myself. For my own frickin BMX outfits. I don't see my job today, as much different as that I rarely will ask for permission to go do something I think my job a lot of times is to bring options like that to clients and really help them rethink, hey, this might be I know you want to do it this way. But I will always try and show them like, Hey, we should. What if we thought a little bit differently. And we did something like this. And then a lot of times that's the path we go down. But I wouldn't have learned that how to not been in areas like you know, the bay area that's on Marc Gutman 37:29 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline. or even your product or a brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose-driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again, in this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And so, you know one of the things that I think is really interesting about you is the non well some of the non-professional stuff, right well you're you're real you're real avid cyclist you you live in North boulder on what is effectively a ranch, right? So that goes really well with the Angry Bovine moniker in my work and you work out of a cool you know, retrofitted trailer out on that ranch and so walk me through a little bit like how did you get to Boulder like like, when it's cycling under the picture? Like Like, when did you become this like, cool design rancher dude? Jay Ferracane 39:09 Well, I laughed in the beginning when you said, your non-professional stuff, because I don't, I think that the second you can start being more about the things that you really enjoy and love and how that affects your work. It does kind of turn you into a better professional, but in some ways, it's non-professional. I thought that's where you're gonna go with this. But I think that I've always been interested in I started racing bikes long before I got to Colorado, and I was doing that in college and I've again, hyperactive add I have energy to burn. And so, you know, I got my first mountain bike because my girlfriend at the time who's now my wife was into mountain biking and she's like, you should get a bike and, you know, three months later, I'm like, Well, I need to go race. I'm gonna go enter a contest and you know, see how I do and I did okay, I survived, but then I was addicted. Start Riding competitively. And the one thing that bugged me about cycling, which was kind of funny, was, you know, coming out of 90 skateboard 80s and 90s skateboard culture where you had these, like, you know, big pants, I don't know if you remember that that phase, you know, big pants and baggy shirts, and, and that kind of stuff. And then I go to start racing bikes, and you're in lycra, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, I can't have my friends, you know, see me like this. And I think one of my goals down the road. And now that I designed cycling kits and stuff, I try and make them. It's still like, right, you can't make it that cool. But I try and make it feel more like either, you know, surfer skate apparel, in some way or another, the long story on the getting from the Bay Area to here. I think at a certain point, a lot of creative people just have to ask themselves, how they work best. And then you need to make the decision to live up to that decision. And so I was running an agency in Palo Alto, the economy's doing pretty good. I was actually run an agency, we had two offices, one in San Francisco, and one in Palo Alto. And it was weird because I came back in 10 or 15 years, what after that original working in Anna report shop in the town had changed quite a bit. We had Facebook there now. And it was, you know, Palo Alto wasn't this little sleepy town that supported Stanford anymore. It was kind of a hotbed for venture capitalism. And technology was really going off there. And so it was a great place to run an agency San Francisco, us too. So I returned to that town to run this agency after my stint on the client side. And I ran the agency for about two years, the economy, like I said, was doing really well. But I had two kids now. And I started to realize I was spending more time in my car, I drive seven miles to work. And it would take almost 45 minutes. And I just thought with parking and then walking to your office. And all of a sudden, something in me just wasn't connecting, my neighbors weren't of my same, you know, brain, we had a lot of, there's a lot of opportunity in the Bay Area. So who can fault them for it, we had a lot of people moving in, that become our neighbors, and they really weren't there for the long haul. They came to run a company and go back to wherever they were originally from. My wife had grown up there. So we had a lot of roots in the Bay Area. And we started to say to ourselves, like, hey, how can we spend more time with our kids and raise them in an area where they can still be kids? Because there's a lot of pressure on those on our we felt on kids at that time to be the next tech CEO, and why aren't your kids going to math camp and stuff. And my wife is a very creative individual as well. She does interior design, and she did real estate for years and a lot of staging and that kind of stuff. And now she runs a nonprofit, hence, the ranch story, saving Mustangs, the horse, not the car. And so we made a decision to move to Colorado, though. So we could see our kids more and personally with me, I knew I was doing a level of work where I'm like, I will find work, let's let's move, I really want to see these my kids, as long as they still think I'm cool. And we made the move out here. My agency was like, hey, go there and start a boutique for us. And that was the ultimate plan, I started looking for property and you know, building and that kind of stuff and was going to start hiring talent because they knew that this there was great creative talent out here. And the economy started to kind of shift, we started to go into a little bit of a recession. And because I'm kind of a player-manager in the way that I creative directed I design every day, that's my problem solving methodology. And I would fly back to the Bay Area and fire a couple people and then come back and pick up their work and still present it to clients and ran jobs and but then it just got to be at a certain point. I'm like, This isn't good for my soul anymore. And you know, before we started the call you and I have been chatting about, you know, what comes out of COVID is their opportunity here. And I know some friends in the space that are that are doing some cool things and, and preparing for when it gets good again. But I think the opportunity that I saw was I had a lot of clients who were looking for service, but they couldn't afford agencies anymore. So I had this really interesting opportunity to start my own business and rebuilding where I got to interface directly with clients and then manifest our discussions into the designs I was doing. And so I literally got to start my business in almost the safest way I've ever possible. I moved to Colorado, did my agency thing with the company back in the Bay Area for a little bit and then slowly started up my other business as the other one wound down. even helped them do some jobs for a while. Didn't want to burn any bridges there. And some of the clients that I worked on at the agency are now my clients today 12 years later. So, you know, thinking I'm doing something right but at the end of the day, it's also you're building relationships. You know, I think the work not to be self-effacing but I think I do adequate work. But I'm also there, like I said, and I won't quit on people, and I try and be dependable. And you know, and that's how I got here was literally a decision on, I'm okay at what I do, I should be able to go do it anywhere, let's go so we could spend time with the kids. And then the ranch thing was a funny deal because as my wife's nonprofit started, we realized we couldn't have horses or burros in our backyard in a suburban setting in Boulder, Colorado. So we did move north of town, we found a rundown old little property. And the past five and a half years, we've been literally refinancing building bones, just making a better habitat for the animals we're trying to help. So and that's my family's work. Now, it really gave us like a sense of identity, I think in some way that, you know, my older son works with horses today, my younger son is just conflicts, anything that's mechanical and broken, and you know, my wife everyday goes out and, you know, works the land, and then I have to go build fences. So that's, that's fine. How we ended up here. And so it's very nice of you to say that that's a cool thing. Maybe the name was somewhat self-fulfilling at some point, because we did recently get cows too. So I was destined for it. At some point, I think there are no accidents or mistakes. Marc Gutman 46:17 So you know, before we started recording, you and I were chatting and talking a little bit about this idea of objectivity, and in the creative space today. And what I'd like to do is like shift gears a little bit and change the conversation to that. And I think the prompt was like, Where has it gone? You know, where has subjectivity gone? and creativity today? Jay Ferracane 46:41 Well, and what are the phenomenons that are, are making it harder and harder to find. And I think I saw a film recently that kind of turned on a few light bulbs. For me, I don't know if you've seen the social dilemma yet. But it is an interesting film to check out. But one of the things that's fascinating, if you kind of step away from it, I have, it was it's funny for me, I really do like to believe that design is best served when it's objective. Now, you get to know these slippery slopes, because mark, you present creative all the time. And there might be an idea that's really rooted in research and findings. And you present it to that client and you really believe in it. And then they go Yeah, we just don't like it. And that's the weird thing about our craft, right. For all the objectivity and information and support we have, we might be have behind an idea. At the end of the day, some part of creative particularly when you start putting form, or imagery, or words with it, you get into subjectivity, right? Because if somebody doesn't like that photograph, or if somebody doesn't like that layout, or somebody doesn't like that word, all of a sudden, things get upset. But objectivity, the thing that's kind of fascinating gets kind of called out in this film, and has made me think about it ever since. And even I've had a couple conversations before seeing the film. That's the one thing that a lot of hat while I pitch a lot of work. And I don't always win all the work. But one of the things I like to do is I go back, and I check when things launch. And I like to go and just see Wow, I wonder what came together to make that thing what it was. Because if you go look at something like a website, or even a brochure, or something like that, or campaign, those are organisms, right? It's not just a simple, clear idea that comes out and launches, there's a lot of influences and pressures and things that shape it to be the thing that it is. But it the objectivity is usually my go to tool because I can say, hey, this isn't about me, coming back to empathy. And this is design. objectivity is really about like, hey, let's let's help you, the person that's very close to it, usually the business owner, make some decisions based on being rational in research versus emotional kinds of stuff, which can sometimes be dangerous. And so I guess the things that have come up is like I see a lot of agencies go out and build work, where that idea seems a lot like the way that they serviced a previous client. So were they really being objective? Or were they really just trying to get work out the door? I think that the fascinating byproduct of the media will you digest and social stuff, and that kind of thing is, is, um, our objectivity might be being eroded and a little bit because if we all of a sudden don't hear things we agree with and say I present a creative idea to you that you might not like it. It's, it's usually more divisionary than it is conversation starting. And it's just an interesting phenomenon that I've seen lately, where I really have to do a lot of setup so that I can be Hey, I'm not presenting you this because I feel like this morning. I'm presenting this idea to you because objectivity is pointing us in the direction of these things filled with Goals you've told us to fulfill? And I don't know, are you seeing any of this in your work, you know, where you start to present ideas and it gets biased or something like that in some way or another? Because I know this is this objectivity thing goes far beyond the creative circle. But are you seeing any of it too? It's a fascinating topic to me. Marc Gutman 50:20 Well, I do see it. But I think for me, like when I think about it, and I heard you talking, it's like, you know, before for someone to have a conversation around creative, they had to be in the creative space, or at the very least, you had to go talk to a creative professor, or you had to go to the library right now you can Google. You know, how do I critique a logo, what makes a great logo, what? What is great, create whatever you want, right? And what that does is that makes everybody feeling like that they have some sort of expertise in the in the conversation. Now, I do think it's really interesting that, like, I do think there's a misnomer. And I think this is like not not a current thing. I think this is like, maybe something that happened way back in the days of branding of designers, right? Where there was this idea that a designer would go off in a madman style way and, you know, bang their head against the wall and come up with an amazing idea. And then create as if they were a mad scientist, and a blur of paint and scrap paper, maybe, you know, Warhol or something like that comes to mind. And then or even a Jackson Pollock, but like, you would then take that, that output and tada, you have a, you know, a campaign or a logo or an identity and that it wasn't always rooted in this the sense of objectivity, at least from the client-side, right? That it right, that it was a you know, that's that might be the way that designers approach it. But from the client side, I think that's long been the viewpoint. And so maybe you're just experiencing it more, in today's kind of world where things are coming, maybe a little unfiltered, or in a different way. But I don't know, I feel like you know, the brand of a designer, at least publicly facing is, is, as I described, and less about solving real problems about being objective, and less about removing themselves from the process. Yep. where, you know, it's like, oh, who's this famous designer Who's this and we are living in this age of famous graphic designers, right. And that's also a weird thing that you and I have talked about where, you know, there really shouldn't be famous designers that it's not about the designers but here we are. Jay Ferracane 52:44 When it is funny of John Violin Berg, I don't know if you know him, but fascinating individual, he runs up a thing called Project m, at a number of other things. He was doing an interview once, and he he was introduced as being a famous designer. And then he kind of shrugged it off and was like, well, being a famous designer is is a is like being a famous plumber, only other plumbers know you. And so, uh, but I do think famous designers are known outside of certain circles. And I think the danger in it is a no, no danger is probably a like too prescriptive is a little too serious. It's not dangerous, right. But it is an interesting phenomena, I really look at myself as I'm a capitalist. That's my design shtick. And what I've had to realize too, is a lot of designers need to have their things so that when people are out there in their selection process, looking for creative help, they find the one that works best with them, I happen to work in a really a capitalistic kind of way where I want to interface with clients, I believe they know so much more about their business, then I could ever and I want those nuggets and pieces of information that I want to go do my research and I want to interview their customers, and I want to really talk to them about how the design we're about to do whatever it may be, also helps them at the end of the day, like you know, if you've got to if we're going to do a brand and we end up doing a website in that brand, and you know, they only have to marketing people on the marketing staff. Do you want to go build a website that requires like a team from MIT to update it every day? Probably not. Like, like, stick them on WordPress and, you know, maybe think through before you ever design the brand is you know, you think through like, how easy will this thing be to update if that's a part of their business premise. So coming back to this idea of objectivity. I think one of the things that I get concerned about is is that if people go to an agency for a specific look, or the request and I've gotten this request before is like we'll just do for us what you did for x, right. I think that's a really hard place to be as a designer because Eyes, if we're being objective about their business and who they are as a brand, you need to kind of re-inventory all their parts and in some weird way, maybe you'll get the crazy math that works out and says, Yeah, I guess we could do exactly what we did for this other brand for you guys. But more often than not the little point oh, 1% shift that makes them a different business. Maybe it's just the fact that they're doing exactly what business a is doing on the west coast, they just happen to be in Cleveland, Ohio, that might be enough of a difference to change their whole brand persona. So anyway, I just think this idea of objectivity as a bigger concept, meaning like, Hey, how are we really looking at things through an honest, authentic kind of lens in some of my recent experiences, and again, I'm not an absolute type of person. But I've seen a lot of hints of like, hey, that's not as important as you may think it is. And that's just my kind of view on design these days. Marc Gutman 56:03 So then, and thanks for that, Jan. And I appreciate that. And so like, in addition to that, like, what's hard about design, What don't we see? Like, what What don't we get to the person who's, who's not living at every day? Jay Ferracane 56:17 Well, design is funny, because like, it's, um, I have met some guys that that can literally they go and they clock in, and then they're designing, I think, for me, what's hard about design is, it's never really done. And then in my mind, in some way, I'm, I don't want to say a member, just I'm dissatisfied. But I always think like, how could it be optimized? How and, you know, from an hourly standpoint, designers make a pretty good living doing, you know, doing what we're doing, I don't think it's as hard as like, as a guy who's, who's run a ton of fence and built sheds and done construction and his life. I don't go home with that kind of tired every day. But there's a cerebral kind of like, wearing that is it's consuming. I think that's one of the things that that's hard about design is is that a year you're at dinner with your wife, and she's like, You're not listening to me right now. And your brain is off trying to like write a headline or figure out why a layout isn't working. And then you have to like re-enter and you have to apologize, you know, you're driving down the road, and someone goes, did you see that Billboard and you're like, nope, but it was set and Gill Sans, like, it's just, it's, it's it, I think there's a periphery that designers exist in that we're, I feel like, at least as a designer, I'm always on, like, meaning like, I'm always trying to process whatever work I have in front of me, in some way or another. And so from an hourly standpoint, that's one thing that's hard about is it's just constant. And, and I've never even in cycling, or skateboarding, I was never a guide, it was good. Like, Hey, I'm going to stop for two weeks or a month, and then I'll just come back and hope I'm exactly the same. design has a hand It has a movement to it. And I recently just started doing a bunch of writing for a brand. And I luckily, I had to fill out some paperwork prior to doing that. And I realized how, like, I just wasn't great at typing, because I hadn't been like, writing prose for a little bit. And, and so like, I think that's one of the things that's hard about it. Um, I think that if you pair that with genuinely wanting to do good work, it puts a lot of anxiety on the designer. And I think that's one of those things. I remember when you know, I drop a proposal to a client job might not start for two weeks, I'd start worrying about will I have good ideas? And I still do that today, will I be able to solve those problems when it's time to start? And I now well, knowing enough what I know about myself as a designer, I just know that that is a thing. And I have to acknowledge it and you go, Hey, I know you're there little weird anxiety. And this is going to be how you feel until you really get your hands into it. In fact, to this writing example that I'm, I'm really working on right now like I did this thing where you kind of like, constantly check email, or go look at results of you know, sports results, and you do anything but work on the thing because you're fearful of like getting started and so I think my process as a designer to eliminate air quotes, some of the hard stuff is actually just fucking getting to work and start hammering it out. And even if some of the work is throw away that I had to paint a painting teacher A long time ago, just tell me, I would sit there in front of like a blank canvas or big sheet of paper or whatever. And so what he would do is he would he told me like pick up your brush or piece of charcoal and he would take my hand and just run it on the paper. He goes making the first marks the hardest thing and then he would just walk off. And I'm like, Oh, so sometimes just getting started is one of the things that makes design hard. I think genuinely coming back to that idea is like you want to do a good job. most creative people care for a couple of Reasons a, you want to do a good job because someone's paying you good money to help them communicate their thing. The you get into the I'm going to call it the Andre 5000. World, he wasn't an outcast reference, it's an outcast reference, you're only as funky as your last cut you and I'll tell you one thing that I've really learned it, or at least been re-exposed to it is just because I guess most creatives should never ever really get comfortable that they have to no longer prove themselves, because that's a really dangerous place to be. Because I think as creatives we're always proving ourselves, that's really our job, hey, we've given you this problem, show us how you're going to solve it. That's proof, right? And so that that second feature in there that you're only funky as your last cut, comes back to caring about the work you do. But you also want to do really great work, because you know that that work that you're doing at that moment ensures more work comes down the road, because this is such a referral kind of world to so yeah, it is funny to say it's hard because it isn't like ditch digging, but it is there's an anxiety that comes with it that requires a lot of management and it can you can kind of get in your head and but you know, i

Greg Mazu is the Chief Encouragement Officer of Singletrack Trails, a self-proclaimed nomad and misfit, and an all-around passionate guy. Singletrack Trails is an outdoor recreation developer of trails for hiking, biking, and equestrian use all throughout the United States. Before Singletrack Trails became a national company, it was just Greg and the excitement he felt within the escape of the great outdoors. Greg teaches us that trails are in fact not magically built by fairies and elves, but through an equally magical experience of transforming the environment in an artistic way. We dive deep into why force engineering land creates an undesirable experience and how taking every tree and rock into account can shape a captivating experience instead. As a trail artist, you don't impose your ideas onto the land, you take what the land gives you and work through the nooks and turns for a more natural approach. In the end, we apply the metaphor of land to our own lives and ask, how can we take what life gives us to create our own masterpiece? In this episode, you'll learn... Greg's upbringing in Southern Indiana, inspired by Greg LeMond, with dreams to race his bike in Europe The passion Greg had for road racing in his teens and the thrill of freedom he felt when riding Why Greg loaded up the truck and set for a life-changing move to Seattle, Washington by the end of the summer after college Discovering a whole new world in Seattle, including mountain biking, a “fake family”, and food beyond pizza and burgers Greg's involvement with the Mountain Bike Advocacy Group in Colorado and the valuable trail-building lessons learned while volunteering How mountain bikers became a driving force in perfecting trail design to account for the reckless, less-represented sport of the late 90s and early 2000s Surprisingly, trails are not built by magic and they can't be engineered like highways How Greg successfully transformed Singletrack Trails into an official organization after unintentionally realizing he had his own business What the “synthesis of connection” is and why it is a core value for Singletrack Trails Creating trail is designing an escape from reality. Trail building can be a form of art The importance of taking advantage of the situations that you are presented with Greg's innovation during the pandemic, characterized by maintaining the success of Singletrack Trails along with tackling two other businesses, Tools for Trails and Desert Rat Tours Resources Singletrack Trails Tools for Trails Desert Rat Tours Greg Mazu Facebook Greg Mazu Instagram Greg Mazu LinkedIn Quotes [26:17] It goes back to being a kid. The bike was my escape from reality. My bike—it still is the escape from my reality. [30:21] Even to this day, most people say, “Oh, I didn't know that you can make a living doing that.” And at the time, I was even surprised that I could find a way to make a living just building trail. It was amazing to realize that I could do that. [55:32] We can get into the nitpicking of, “That corner's too tight, or you should have gone below that rock or above that rock,” you know, it's art. Everybody has a different representation of what that art is, like a lot of people look at a Jackson Pollock and think he just threw paint on a canvas. [57:18] Trails are like shoes: you can't just have one pair. Podcast Transcript Greg Mazu 0:02 We were working as a business for 13 years before I realized that I needed to set up a business. So I like even though this is year 16, for Singletrack Trails, it's really like year three of trying to be organized. And I do a lot of referencing to restaurant the, like the restaurant industry, like we have the front of the house in the back of the house, the front of the house, include me and our biz dev guy and our marketing guy. And we chase the work and do the planning. And in the back of the house are the cooks, the chefs, the artists, the guys in the staff and the gals that get the project on the ground. And so we have the back of the house is dialed however the front of the house is still being created and figuring out how to, oh, we have an HR issue. Do we have something for that and every business chases this all the time, but that's the hardest thing right now. Marc Gutman 1:00 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado, this is the Baby Got Back story Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Back story. How a kid from Indiana in love with his bicycle, built his dream job, which turned into his dream company, building mountain bike and recreation trails all over the country. Hello, Have you missed us because we missed you. We took a short hiatus, summer schedules, kids getting back to school coming to terms with summer being over the struggle is real. It all got in the way. But I am so stoked for the upcoming slate of shows we have for you. And you are about to listen to our 40th episode. And when I say that it doesn't sound like a lot. But 40 episodes of Baby got backstory has been the greatest hardest work of my career. I love doing this show and the people I get to talk to I learned so much from every single guest. So thank you for your support. Thank you for listening. And thank you for keeping me going. Today's show is more than worthy of the 40th episode status. Today I am talking to Greg Mazu. Greg is a self described Nomad and misfit and along with his merry band of nomads and misfits, he has created his dream job designing and building mountain bike and recreational trails all over the United States. I'm sure that sounds like a dream job to a lot of you listening as well. Now if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts. We like high ratings on the apple charts because those help us to build an audience, which then helps us to continue to produce this awesome, amazing show. During our interview with Greg one thing will be incredibly clear. He loves what he does. He uses terms like trail artists, and clearly articulates his magical blend of work and play. Greg says his title single track trails is chief encouragement officer. And it's hard not to get encouraged and excited when hearing Greg talk about what he does. From a guy who loved to ride bikes and noodle on trails to a leader in the outdoor recreation industry. All across the country. Greg Mazu has reset the standard of what it means to do what you love. And this is his story. I'm here with Greg Mazu and he is the founder and chief encouragement Officer of singletrack trails. And Greg, can you just give us a little context what is singletrack trails? Greg Mazu 4:27 Singletrack trails is a outdoor recreation developer. We build infrastructure, we create infrastructure across the country for natural surface hiking, mountain biking and equestrian use mainly but we do get into motorized, and we do get into bicycle skill parks and other things related to recreating on our natural resources. Marc Gutman 4:48 And when you were a young child when Greg was eight years old, I mean, is that what you were doing? Were you off building trails. Greg Mazu 4:56 I was always playing outside. Yes, and probably Like any other eight year old, I was fascinated with equipment. However, building trails was not something probably even on my radar as something that people do until their 20s or until my 20s. And so so we had no, it wasn't on the radar other than other than playing outside. I grew up in the Midwest and had no clue that trails really existed in the way that they do now. Marc Gutman 5:24 Yeah, so tell me a little bit about that. Where'd you grow up? And and what was that? Like? Greg Mazu 5:29 I mainly grew up in southern Indiana. It was as as most people who are from the Midwest, no, it was it was rather warm, it was rather humid. I spent most of my days pedaling my road bike around, got into road racing as a teenager and kind of like my mom. My mom had family in Oregon so so getting out to the Pacific Northwest was always a favorite thing in my life. And and so basically, once once I was able to start forming my own thoughts for what I wanted to do with life, I wanted to get out of the Midwest and out to the out to the west coast kind of as quickly as possible. Marc Gutman 6:07 Yeah. Did you have a sense of what what that might be? I mean, did you always want to be in the outdoor recreation industry? Are you more like, hey, I want to be a doctor or construction dude or whatever. Greg Mazu 6:19 I was a teenager in the years of Greg Lamond, and I wanted to I wanted to go to Europe and race my bike. I had no other thoughts other than that. Obviously, that didn't work out. But uh, um, but no, I really like I've never really thought in planned a life goal kind of kind of like that. Like, I want to be a doctor, I want to be a lawyer. When I grow up. I I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do when I grow up right now. So I'm, I'm just taking I just take what life gives me and kind of kind of make the lemonade. Marc Gutman 6:58 Yeah, and I love this image of you, idolizing Greg lemon, I kind of have this image of like even the the movie breaking away or something like that. The Italians are coming. The Italians are coming, but especially in Indiana, and all that kind of stuff. Like Greg Mazu 7:13 I got, I used to be able to tell you every single road that that movie was filmed on back in the day, so Marc Gutman 7:20 Iconic for sure. And, you know, what was it about road racing that caught your attention? What did you love about it? Greg Mazu 7:28 It got me out of the house. Like Like, like everything that we see about outdoor recreation now getting out of the house, the freedom, the escape from reality, that that was road racing. To me, it got me out of the house, I I didn't want to focus on school as much as my parents wanted me to. I didn't want to they want to mow the lawn. So it got me It got got me my independence. You know, and my parents were pretty willing to let me start as as, as an early teenager, if you will, they started let me go in for an hour long ride and then two hour long rides, and then I would just go out and disappear and come back. Probably a better person for them to manage in the long run. So yeah, so so that's the road racing was my escape. I was in southern Indiana trails. I mean, what what trails there were weren't fantastic. The mountain bikes were, you know, fully rigid cannon lever brakes. Not super awesome. So road bikes were were were my escape. Marc Gutman 8:28 Yeah, and that right there, you mentioned that, you know, it necessarily wasn't what, you know, your parents wanted for you. You want it, you know, they probably wanted you to study harder and you wanted to ride your bike. What did your parents want for you? Like, what were their hopes? Greg Mazu 8:43 I think, you know, obviously, doing well in school, I probably, you know, moving moving on and getting what I would describe as as the corporate job and, and, and trying to make it make make big changes in that fashion. Um, you know, my dad worked for for BF Goodrich and Alcoa for most of his adult life. And I don't know if that was the way I studied exercise science in college and thought that I would, I would get involved with that somehow, some way. And, and, and I think they were okay with that decision. I think they would have preferred me to be a business graduate or something like that. And, yeah, it was something like expectations were kind of like, you need always kind of wanting to do better, but but there wasn't on the whiteboard of like, this is what Neal Mark, Mark off these boxes in your life kind of thing. Marc Gutman 9:39 Yeah. And so when you were in high school in southern Indiana, like, what was the path for for most of your friends or most kids in your town? I mean, were they staying and working for the local company? Were they moving on to school? did was that always in your future to move on to higher education? Greg Mazu 9:56 Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. Um, I might. I I grew up in a, a quote-unquote suburb of a bigger city so so everybody was a little better off. So, so higher education was always on track. I think maybe some people went off to school and then move back to where we grew up. And then some others. Others, like myself kind of escaped across the country to move on to, uh, you know, environments that that spoke more to them personally Marc Gutman 10:28 Yeah, so tell me about that. So when you leave home and you finish high school, what does that look like? It sounds like he moved out west and give us a like, Greg Mazu 10:39 Nope, still took me four more years. I went to Indiana University for four years. I moved out, you know how some people move out, go into the dorms and they go home every summer. That was not me. Hi. I basically moved into the dorm and kind of never went home like, the independence of living in a college town was fantastic. So So, between freshmen and sophomore year, I moved into a house with a bunch of bike racing buddies. We spent the summer racing bikes and that was, that was basically you know, the next three years after that, you know, I just stayed in Bloomington, Indiana for four years. And then graduated college and took a month off and in there, well, a month off like I just graduated college, right. So I took a month and drove around the West, in my Honda Civic living out of it ended up in Seattle and saw an old, an old IU friend. And about three weeks later, she called me up and said that they found me a temp job at the company they were working for she and her boyfriend were working for so I loaded up moving truck and moved out to Seattle, Washington by the end of the summer. Marc Gutman 11:50 Yeah. And what was that job and the name of the company that was waiting for you in Seattle. Greg Mazu 11:55 I was working with Raleigh and Diamondback bicycles. I was I was kind of like the grunt in the in the product development department assembling bikes for inner bike at the time assembling bikes for photoshoots. Helping out they still had a production line in Kent, Washington. So if there was an issue over there, I would, I would go over and start breaking chains for for the assembly line or, or helping to do whatever needed to help it on the assembly line. So wasn't the most intriguing job but it got me It got me out of out of the Midwest got me into Seattle, Seattle is is near and dear to my heart now. And I have a lot of fake family, as I like to call them out there. So I really, really kind of grew. That's when I kind of grew up and realized that there was a world outside of the Midwest. Marc Gutman 12:45 Yeah, it must have been, you know, well, maybe not, you know, your dream job. It got you into the industry working in and around, you know, bikes, which must have much must have been great, right? That was your dream as someone who was so invested in cycling? Greg Mazu 12:59 No, it was super good. Probably the last year in college, like bikes, bikes had kind of left my life a little bit, um, I and I was walking around, walking around life a little aimlessly and, and so got back, I got back into riding bikes got into mountain biking, got into realizing that there was more to food than just pizza and burgers, realizing that people spoke other languages, in, in, in our cities. And it was just completely eye-opening to me and I realized that it was awesome. Marc Gutman 13:38 So then, so what did you study when you're IU? And when you left? You know, would you think you were going to do at that point, even before you got this job in Seattle, Greg Mazu 13:47 I was an exercise science major. I thought well, towards the end there. Obviously, they're kind of pumping people into cardiac rehab kind of stuff and wasn't really speaking to me, I, you know, as as I tell a lot of people on my staff now I've got, I've got kids now working for me who are trying to ramp up at a degree or, or they're somewhere on a gap year or something like that. It's like no, you will go back to school and you will get a degree. So I kind of like left IU knowing that I had accomplished getting a degree but I didn't know what I was going to do with my life. So I just kind of was on the chase for trying to figure that out and getting into the bike industry with getting back into the bike industry or getting into the bike industry. And then getting back into bikes was a huge help for me. Um, but I was 22, 23 and still slightly. I didn't have a true north that I was following yet. So so I was bouncing around a little bit still then so Marc Gutman 14:50 Yeah, and talk to me a little bit about that. So you know, you mentioned this idea of a true north and you're bouncing around a little bit. So where does this first job lead you to where How does that develop? And where do you go next? Greg Mazu 15:03 I, that first job just kind of led me to realizing that there was more to life out there. Um, I ended up when I moved out to Seattle, I shared a moving truck with a friend from Indiana and I dropped him off in Colorado. So I spent about nine months in Seattle, and then I got restless. And, and so I started, my intent was to create a life where I could bounce back and forth between Seattle and Colorado. And so I came back to Colorado and hung out, hung out with some friends that I had here in her back up in Seattle for a little bit and then ended up I was going to come to Colorado for I grabbed my stuff, and I was going to come to Colorado and work for six months, doing temp jobs doing whatever kind of came across my way. And then and then go back to Seattle and kind of do the same, like, oh, I'll come back out and help you guys get the bikes ready for interbike are kind of doing whatever odd jobs I could, you know, been 20 like I said, 22-23 that's a pretty awesome life to be bouncing back and forth. Marc Gutman 16:06 Yeah, and so like, what, you know, what I'm hearing is that, you know, the work though, is also like a little bit of an ends to a means like, like, like, what were you doing, you know, in these areas that was lighting you up and making it you know, pretty ideal as you put it, Greg Mazu 16:22 I won't lie I was enjoying this life. I was rock climbing, I was kayaking, and I was mountain biking and road riding. You know, that's, that's what was was, was motivating me, at the time was to be playing outside and skiing and snowboarding. So that's what was was my driving force. But when on one of my stints here in Colorado, I ended up meeting a I in a meeting my girlfriend who is still around in my life at this point. So moving back and forth between Seattle and Colorado was kind of that dream disappeared. At that point, she wasn't super pumped on on that transient lifestyle. So which it turned out to be super good. Um, so I ended up working in Colorado for some some some random jobs for three years, I ended up packing boxes at a at a food supplement distributor for a couple of those years. And just it was not motivating me. And over that time, I got involved with the mountain bike advocacy group and started building trails as a volunteer starting getting more education, about building trails. And then I was able to weasel my way into a job with Colorado State Parks in Fort Collins, Colorado, and became a seasonal trail employee at a state park. So so that's how I got into what I'm doing. And then after about a year, I realized that they didn't really pay me as a state employee, they paid me more as a contractor. So I woke up one day and realized that I had a business I never had to make that decision to start leave a job and start my own business because the state of Colorado forced me into that at the time, Marc Gutman 18:14 Thankfully, for the state of Colorado, but that's backup. Thank you, you covered a lot of ground and you jumped right you know right into Hey, I've got a business, but uh, you know, so you're, you're working this job, your pack jobs, one of them's packing boxes, but but you're lit up by the outdoors, and you're lit up by writing. And take me a little bit into this. You mentioned that you joined a trail advocacy group you started volunteering on the trail, like kind of take me back to that, like Do you remember like the first like, why you did it? And then maybe like, what was the first trail you actually like started, you know, digging on or working on or, you know, let's talk a little bit about that Greg Mazu 18:56 So that's a tough one. The first trail that we actually I actually did trail work on that would be that's in the distance that's in the distant memory hire. I remember the first one that I worked on it as a professional but but really like what happened is is Barb was in my life. She had moved to Colorado from New England where she had been mountain biking had been in her history back in New England quite a bit and and she had done some some volunteer trail days. And so we both got involved with the with the local group in Fort Collins together. And so she took me to a couple volunteer days. I was like, I don't want to do that I want to go ride my bike this weekend. And so, but ended up ended up going to those and enjoying it enjoying being outside and wanting to do more and realizing that it helped it helped this passion that I had for mountain biking at the time it helped like I was helping to make make the trails more more to my liking because that's, you know, a lot of volunteers are out building on trails and they're their driving force typically is to make sure trails, more to their liking whether whether whether hiking mountain biking or questioning us, they they want to make the trails better for how they use the trails. Marc Gutman 20:11 Yeah, and that's where I was going with that. I mean, you know, I think my initial reaction I'm a little embarrassed to say would be like yours. It's like, Hey, I don't want to go to like an advocacy group, I want to go and like, ride my bike or hang with my friends. So like, I just like, what is it about advocacy? Even at that level? That's important, like, What? What caught your attention there? Or, you know, why was it important, you know, to BB for you guys to go and do that? Greg Mazu 20:36 Well, at the time, um, mountain biking is the redheaded stepchild of outdoor recreation endeavors, if you will, like it's, it's the one of the younger ones to the table, we're trying to use the same trails is hiking and equestrian use. And so through advocacy, mountain biking has been able to gain more access to more trails in the long run. Marc Gutman 21:02 Yeah. Awesome. That's really interesting to me that like, you know, I think today, we look around, and especially here in Colorado, but I think of everywhere I was in Michigan for a while this summer, it's like, mountain biking doesn't seem to be today. This kind of younger, like less represented sport, it seems very mainstream to me. So to hear you say that. And to take us back there is really interesting. And, and yeah, can you talk a little bit about like, where mountain biking was at the time, you're kind of getting into that, but I just find that really, really fascinating. Greg Mazu 21:34 Yeah, and I think that the efforts, the efforts of the late 90s and early 2000s are why mountain biking seems way more mainstream at this point. But at the time, you know, we're, you know, mountain bikes were coming off of and being fully rigid. And Kenny lever breaks trails were not necessarily built for mountain biking at the time. And so they they were built by hikers and horseback riders, and they saw a summit and they're like, we want to go to that summit. And so the trails kind of took the direct route up up the hill. And so for a mountain biking at the time, it coming down a hill on canny lever brakes, which, if you remember required pretty much your entire hand your all four fingers to be gripping as tight as possible to kind of, you know, and they were, you know, rim brakes, disc brakes didn't exist, there were there was barely any suspension at the time. So mountain bikes were known for being reckless and out of control, and didn't belong on trails. Um, and and in the trails were steep. And so there was a lot of hiking, biking going up the hill to a lot of a lot of, you know, skidding down the hill. And so so it was a struggle It was a struggle for for mountain bikers to keep access to trails in local environments and whatnot. And over time, disc brakes evolved and, and over time, you know, suspension happened, so it was easier to stay in control. And it's always kind of fun to hop on a bike that has narrow handlebars, canny lever brakes, and no suspension and go for a ride and just be like, I wish the kids today knew understood what we went through back in the day, right? Like, oh, they have it so good with technology. But, you know, so but mountain hikers and equestrians, to serious stereotype, they would say, all this erosion on trails is caused by mountain bikers. They're the newest, the newest kid on the block. And, and mountain bikers knew that that was not true. It was actually the design of the trail for the trail that had not been designed but had been walked in and hiked in and horseback in. And so So, mountain bikers took that opportunity to say, hey, let's let's, let's work on this. Let's reroute these trails, let's make it the grade less steep. Let's make it more the catchphrases is sustainable. I prefer the term durable let's make it more durable. And and by through that like the the trail became easier to climb so we didn't have to hike a bike as much and coming down we were able to to increase perceive speeds. So you feel like you're going faster, but you're actually more in control. And then it's like oh, you see a hiker, you're able to actually stop. And and we're, you know, we're able to take out blind corners where his you know, like, it always seems that wherever there's a blind corner, there's there's a high rate of speed for a mountain biker and you come around the corner and there's a horseback rider and a cliff. And it's like you scare them and it's like they feel like they're about to fall off the cliff. So we were able to use, you know, trail design in trail maintenance, and trail construction to kind of reshape the industry making trails more, more sustainable and more durable. I'm sure some people will say I'm giving mountain bikers too much credit for for, you know, the change in this industry. But if you look at if you look at the companies that are out there Who are pushing the industry forward, we all came from from the sport of mountain biking so so I feel I feel like it's a fairly accurate assessment of life. Marc Gutman 25:10 And I love that glimpse just into the early days and, and what it was like and the challenges and you know, hiking your bike up and then bomb and down and try not to like flip over the handlebars. And so like, it wasn't easy, you know, and, and I remember the first time I was on a mountain bike, like it just, it was fun. It was cool, but it certainly wasn't easy and right so what like, what did you love about it? Like, why why mountain biking with everything that you have going on? You have climbing there was some you know, road road biking, all the things we do in Colorado, and I know you didn't just probably didn't just abandon that stuff. But like, what was it that really lit you up? about getting on a mountain bike back, especially back then, you know, Greg Mazu 25:51 I think, you know, one, it's it's a bicycle and bicycles have always been the one the one tool that motivates me the most as like, I can live someplace without skiing, but I cannot live someplace without mountain biking. Like, like, you take my bike away. I become a very sad individual. So I think why Marc Gutman 26:15 Why? What's so great about a bike? Greg Mazu 26:17 It goes back to being the kid, the bike was my escape from reality. my bike, the you know, it still is the escape for my reality, I may, you know, there was a there was a period in life where I couldn't really ride a mountain bike trail without being critical of how it was built or how it was maintained. And and today I may kind of think a little too much about work on it, but still, it's how I escape reality of the world. Um, and it's really nice, it's, it's, it's, it's similar to like going snowshoeing in my, in my opinion, like, like, if you if you go for a hike, you have to walk up the hill and you have to walk down the hill. And, and let's not forget that walking down the hill is actually harder and on the knees on the hips on on the feet, because you're breaking with with with your feet. And so so it's just like snowshoeing you walk up the hill Do you have to walk down versus mountain biking is like back countries, you know, splitboarding or skiing where you get to skin up the hill to slide down and so same thing with mountain biking is you get to you get to pedal up the hill and you get to roll down the hill. And that's that's just way more fun than having a walk down it so Marc Gutman 27:31 Thank you for that. And so you know you let's go back to you know you you've kind of fallen into this this job with the state of Colorado and and can you just reset that so you're What are you doing for them at the time when you realize like, hey, like I'm a contractor and I've kind of got a thing going on here. Greg Mazu 27:53 Well at the time I'm I'm basically just the seasonal trails coordinator for Laurie State Park in here in Fort Collins. And my job is in 97 there was a large thunderstorm that sat over the park and over the town and flooded the park and a lot of the town so So my job is to help complete a trails plan to rebuild some of the trails up there from from from that storm, I think it dropped like 12 or 15 inches of rain in like a 24 hour period. So a lot of the trails had gotten hammered from that and so my job was to work with volunteers work with Youth Corps to go out and work by myself to to kind of maintain trails, reroute trails and implement this trail plan that the previous person had created. And, and it was a six-month job. And so, you know, after the first six months, I got another job. Another temp job here in Fort Collins. I then went back the following summer, and the position was funded through a grant. And it was that second year that you know, it was like kind of like, well, well, you're not really a state employee because of you know, we can't use this grant money to pay you as a state employee. I'm like, Okay, well, I'm not a bit I don't have insurance for this. And so so we found a way to launder my money through an A nonprofit locally, that first year but it really there was enough money for the next two years for me to be working at Laurie State Park and so it kind of like allowed me to to continue that that second six months season and then at the time the international mountain bicycling association was creating their trail solutions program and they were leveraging people like myself to kind of show up on projects and help get them done. So I was able to start kind of like farming myself out and and then do a little bit of contract. We're planning work by a contract for Laurie State Park in the wintertime. It didn't really like I like to say that I woke up one day and it and it hit me in They kind of did. But it was really like a 12 month process for me to realize that, oh, hey, like I, they're, they're paying me as a contractor. It took probably two or three more years for me to realize that I had my own business. But I was I was able to piece together three or four years of just constant trail work. And as an even to this day, most people say, like, Oh, I didn't know that you can make a living doing that. And it's just like, at the time, I was even surprised that I could make it, you know, find a way to make to make a living just building trail. And, and, you know, it was amazing to realize that I could do that. Marc Gutman 30:36 Yeah, and so at this time, is it just you or do you have a you bring on crew? Or what does that look like? Greg Mazu 30:43 It was me, myself and I. I was, you know, if if I was if I was getting called up to you know, Wyoming state parks called me in to wrap up a small project. If it was trail solutions, I might show up in there other other other vagabonds like myself, who were trying to get into this business, so it might be a team on one of those projects, but but, but really like, from this is 2004 I like to say January one, 2004 is the start of the business. So from this is like 2004 through, say, 2007 the business was was me, myself and I, I was I was out building by, you know, doing projects building by hand. By the end of that I I owned a truck, a trailer and a machine. I had, you know, work in Wyoming and Colorado. And and i was i was i was i was living the dream, if you will. Marc Gutman 31:41 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose-driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy loyal customers that purchase again and again, which is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. I'm sitting here thinking what's special or what's difficult about trail design and building it this time and what I mean by that is like why not just like what why aren't these organizations just you know, using folks they have on the payroll or other community members handing them a shovel and saying get out it like what's difficult about this or like what's the challenge? Greg Mazu 33:05 The challenge is most people feel like also, I'll put it this way. Most people feel that trails are built by fairies and elves even to this day. And that means that they just magically appear or if in the case of elves there is a union and they do get paid but trails just magically appear it's like there's we want there's the some of the mountain please just go out and and and and you know, cut some brush and just you know rake and ride is kind of what those trails are called because you could you just rake some brush out of the way and you can even ride it you can hike it and you can ride your horse on it. But they're like where I struggle is some people say standards or specifications and this is trail building our standard is plus or minus a foot so so I apologize to all the engineers but engineers are not super fantastic at building great trail. And so at the time where it was coming from is my job title at the time was trail artist. And so even today we say we create trail we're artists we're a band of of nomads and misfits and we're and we create trailer artists we take what the land gives us and we can see the UPS downs left's and rights and and and put that in and if you just go out and build it like a road, you go, you go for 1000 feet and put a turn in and go for 1000 feet, that's just, it's unengaging. You know, driving a superhighway is unengaging is fast and straight and we want to we want to disengage from reality and so you have to take the rocks and the trees and the train that that that the the the topography gives you and you have to artistically create something so that that was the difference then is those of us that we're kind of seeing trails is art. Seeing trails as as we want to take what the land gives us And build with that not take what we want to input it in force it on the land. So so that was the difference. That's why it was difficult, if you will. Marc Gutman 35:08 Yeah. And so I think this is a good time, as I was researching prior to our interview here, on your website, front and center, it says, we believe in this synthesis of connection. What does that mean? Greg Mazu 35:23 It means that, like, as I like to say, we're trying to, we're trying to connect users and advocates to the trails of their dreams, we're trying to connect land managers to the trails that they want to manage. And I'm trying to connect staff to a dream job, if you will, I'm trying to take nomads and misfits who are passionate about being outside and recreating and providing a good time for others in creating a job that that maybe someday they could afford a mortgage. I'm trying to create that and so so the synthesis of connection is we're trying to take all these different concepts and we're trying to merge them together into enjoying and enjoying the natural resources and escaping reality. Marc Gutman 36:09 And you mentioned this a couple times you talk about nomads and misfits like why did they Why are they the perfect employees? Why? You know, normally nomads and misfits are not the ideal job description for a business so like, Why Why is it Why is that the ideal job description for you in single track trails? Greg Mazu 36:28 One I'm, I'm a nomad and a misfit I am I am best on the go. And, and putting me putting me in many environments I don't quite fit in into most in most social circles. So um, but not like in order to make a business I realized early on in order to in order to make a successful business, I was going to have to travel one that spoke to me because I love to travel I want to go other places. And to like there's only like I'm my girlfriend lives in Fort Collins, I pay my mortgage in Winter Park and the companies are based in Grand Junction. So I'm, I'm constantly on the go. But pick any one of those locations. There's there's only so many trails that can be built in a specific location. So So we've worked, we worked across the country. And so no matter and a misfit has to be, you know, there are people that are willing to chase chase the work to to enjoy life. Marc Gutman 37:23 And so let's go back a little bit. You said you know, I think it's around 2007 it's just you up to that point, you've got a truck, a tractor, some machinery some tools, like what changes for you in the business around then which takes it into I would say just a more of a growth mode or more of a larger business. Greg Mazu 37:48 Just to I wouldn't say growth, he says a larger business what happened was, I was doing so a bit of work for him betrayal solutions, and an over on the west loop in Grand Junction and that in a another statewide nonprofit called bicycle Colorado and the BLM Bureau of Land Management. We're all working on a plan for some trails based in downtown Grand Junction called the lunch loops. As everybody knows, that are the tabel watch trailhead, and they had plans for at the time was going to be the first official on on BLM land, technically on public land in the country. Free Ride trail for mountain biking so not just your cross country trail but a trail that has jumps and drops and one could argue that every trail has jumps and drops but at the time in 2007 this was a huge thing. So I invoked bicycle Colorado and the BLM have a what's more you have a memorandum of understanding to to push this project forward because it's in Colorado but bicycle Colorado was was going to be the the the organization that pushed it forward and so I knew this and I hounded the executive director at the time Dan grunich like i was i was i he probably saw my emails coming in was just like Ah, this dude again, but I hounded him until until he could not resist anymore that I was I was supposed to be the guy that that was was gonna complete that project and help bicycle Colorado get it done. And Dan finally relented and and brought brought me on board to you know, I was kind of a subcontractor slash employee of bicycle Colorado, and in September of 2007 is is when we started building what is now known as free lunch. But in order to do that, I needed to bring on a couple other staff members and one of those was a local bike shop mechanic that that did a lot of jump building and a lot of digging and basically I was told by a couple People in meetings over in Grand Junction like if you want this show to be a success, you need to be bring James on board. So I listened, I called up James and said, Hey, would you help build this trail with me? And and he said yes. And it like, like that sounds like the start of a relationship and and it was because 13 years later, he is he is still with the company and and he is our chief project manager, Chief trail artist as well. So, so that was the change in 2007. And his got a big project, how to bring on a staff member. And then the next year, Wyoming state parks had a big project brought on a couple more, more staff members. And we were splitting time between Grand Junction in Wyoming and continued over the next three or four years to keep building projects in those two areas specifically, but also start to chase work in in Utah. We even went as far as as Tennessee in 2013. So so that was that was the start of it all. Marc Gutman 41:02 Yeah. And at that point, I mean, right before that inflection, that inflection moment, where you vision envisioning where you're, if you're you thinking, you know, I need to turn this into a bigger business, I want a bigger business, or was this all was it inertia was it just like, hey, there's an opportunity, and it snowballs from there. Greg Mazu 41:19 Inertia I like, probably even through, even through 2013, as as we chased a project that project in Nashville, Tennessee, it's like I just like, I almost felt like the company was too big, um, like, I just like, I was okay with me, plus a couple people, but, but, um, I hadn't really come to the realization that if you're going to, if you were going to build a business you had, you had to, like, create a business. And it was it was, like, like, there was some times where like, like, we were wrapping up a project, and I didn't know what was going to be next for us. And, and fortunately, I had enough irons in the fire that something came through at the last second, we were able to keep working but but it was it was total inertia, like I had, like, in 2007. If you said this might be getting a little head, but if you said in in 2007, if you said in 10 years, you're gonna have you know, a staff of 15 people and and you're going to be doing, you know, seven times the amount of work you're doing right now, I've been like, No, thank you, I just know that I don't want to do that. I just want to be out in the woods building trail, let alone now I don't even I don't even build trail anymore. I just I just run the company. So Marc Gutman 42:33 Yeah. And that's that kind of leads me to a question that I've been forming over the courses interview, like, how does like and we'll try to keep this short. But like, how does this work? You know, like, how does it start? Like, how do like how do you even come into a project? What do you do? Like, what is what does this actually look like? Greg Mazu 42:52 Everything and that's the great thing. If, if the theme hasn't been obvious yet, I'm not quite a dog with a squirrel or bright light. But I am almost like that I needed I like doing the same thing over and over is not me. So every project is different with, with how it forms. With how it gets to the finish line, you know, for us, some projects are somebody calls us up and says we have a trail, here's the flag line, we want you to build it this way. And we can do that some people call us up and say, Hey, we have this property, we have an idea for a trail, could you come in and help? You know, lay it out and create you know, create the design for it. And we can do that. And some projects are a combination of the two. Some projects go out to bid competitively on an art on a RFP. Some projects are sole sourced in some projects are start out with an RFP, and then they enjoy working with us. And then we become sole source. So some projects are privately funded. Some projects are funded with grants and some projects are funded with line items out of municipal budgets. So every every single project is completely different in terms of how and how in terms of how it gets to us and how and how we create it. Marc Gutman 44:12 And with all that variability, I'm sure there's a lot of challenges. But what's the most challenging part of your business now? I mean, what, what's what's the tough part thing that we don't see? Greg Mazu 44:23 Yeah, the tough part is we were working as a business for 13 years before I realized that I needed to set up a business. So I like even though this is year 16 for single track trails. It's really like year three of trying to be organized and I do a lot of referencing to restaurant the rest like the restaurant industry, like we have the front of the house in the back of the house, the front of the house include me and our biz dev guy and our marketing guy. And we chase the work and do the planning and in the back of the house are the cooks, the chefs, the artists, that guys in the staff and the gals that get the project on the ground, and so we had the back of the house is dialed, however the front of the house is still being created and figuring out how to, oh, we have an HR issue. Do we have something for that and every business chases this all the time. But that's the hardest thing right now is getting organized and making sure that the world doesn't think that we're like, showing the world that we're not a junk show, even though we might be a junk show on the back end. Marc Gutman 45:30 In that vein, other than the idea that trails just magically appear, which I kind of just love that, because I think that everyone probably just assumes that what else do people get wrong about the work you're doing? Greg Mazu 45:43 The biggest thing and this happened quite a bit is, especially this time of year, last week. Oh, by the way, it's snowed. And there was basically a blizzard in Colorado, the earliest ever, right after record heat waves. And so people and this week is beautiful. So so people will will head out. And if they see our trail staff on this beautiful 83 degree day, where we're finally smoke in the forest, you know, there's no smoke in the air from the forest fires, and they'll just be like, you have the best job ever. You're out here every day. It's like, Where were you two weeks ago, and it was 105 degrees. And we were breeding smoke, Where were you last week when it was a blizzard. And now this is the great like, so everybody thinks we have the best job because we're outside, but they always forget that we have to work in harsh environments. Marc Gutman 46:33 Yeah, one of the things I love about your story, and what I know about you, as well is, you know, from the outside At least it appears that both opportunity and, and and just problems are the mother of invention and progress for your business. And so I know that you have other businesses that have that have come out of single track trails, what are those look like? Greg Mazu 46:57 Primarily the other. The other, I have two other official businesses right now one being tools for trails, which is an online tool retailer for trail building supplies. And then a couple years ago, my ego acquired an existing business over in Grand Junction, it's a shuttle guide company called desert rat tours, I had watched some friends run it as a side hustle. And I was like, and I was like, it doesn't take much work to to drive that business and, and my ego heard that they were selling it and so I acquired it from them. And since then single track trails and tools for trails have been growing. So it's kind of the redheaded stepchild of my businesses. But now my side hustles are getting side hustles if you will, in tools for trails, we're developing a in-house tool brand called back slope tools. So we're trying to take the tools that that trail builders have been using for you know, 100 plus years, and in trying to modify them into to modern tools and give them a modern take on on, on how we actually use the tools and and make them stackable, so you can put them in a trailer make them lockable in case they're there in your in the back of your truck and you're in you're in downtown Denver and in either run into the hardware store or something like that. But just also like, so many times volunteer after volunteer events are so many times at the end of a long workday. You sit around on a tailgate with a beer and you're like, ah would it be great if we had this tool and so we're finally taking the time to take all those all that beer talk and actually turn it into tools. And make a modern, you know, it's a on a on a quick side note one of one of our tools or trails. Vendors sent out an email last week like Oh, hey, like we're like, we, we've we've updated a tool and they took they took a tool they added for length four inches to the handle length, and it's just like, oh, that that's an update. Okay, um, No, thank you. So so so the side hustle has a side hustle there. And we're also looking at singletrack trails is also looking to get back into more land planning with the landscape architect on staff and we're looking to get into some, you know, there's always fabrication needs for every trail project. So we're looking at maybe create a fab arm as well. So when this when this pandemic hit, I was wondering if the business was going to survive. And I figured that when I wasn't going to be traveling, I get kind of bored and I was like, hopefully I don't start another business. And and fortunately for us singletrack trails is going to survive and prosper at this point. And I started three other businesses. So I kind of like succeeded, but also failed at my goals in March. Marc Gutman 49:49 The good kind of failure. And so, you know, as you were talking what really struck me is it almost and you can correct me because this is just my my interpretation, but the trail building and where you're at today, it really is really paralleling the journey you described of mountain biking itself, you know, a ways back where we started, it was kind of like, you know, we had the best that we had, but the technology just wasn't there. And it sounds like now, you know, through tools for trails and, and your other side hustles have side hustles that, you know, you're working to bring trail building into a more, you know, technologically, current state, you know, the right tool for the right job. I mean, would that would that be accurate? Greg Mazu 50:35 Yeah. I, the answer is yes. The show I guess the short answer to that is yes, um, I'm just trying to take advantage of situations that I kind of see in front of me, again, like, the intent was not, when, when all of that when all of this started, the intent was not to, to to intentionally modernize the tools and whatnot, it was just like, hey, can can we take the time to produce this tool, and the tool and the tool brand came specifically from tools trails, which has been around for eight years, as as, as a small like, just providing singletrack trails and, and, and trail groups in Colorado with tools it came around with, like, there's not a lot of margin in the tools that we sell. And so it's like, having been in the bike industry having been on the periphery of outdoor recreation industry, like how, how can we create a supply chain that gives us better margin so that every time every every group that calls me up once wants 50% off on their tools? and me being the guy like, yes, you're putting great trail on the ground here, here you go. It's like, how can we make it so that if I give somebody a discount, I'm not basically paying for their tools as well. So So that's, that's where, you know, it just, it just keeps the opportunity to kind of keep coming because, at best, I'm an opportunity just like, I'm just taking advantage of, of what life is giving me. Marc Gutman 52:03 And so what makes a great tool? Greg Mazu 52:06 In the historic words of Keith Bontrager in the bike industry, light, cheap and strong pick two, however, we're trying to do all three, we're trying to make it we're trying to make it light. We're trying to make it strong, and we're trying to make it affordable. Marc Gutman 52:19 And so what does singletrack trails look like today? Greg Mazu 52:22 Today we are a staff of about 47 people. We have Front Range Colorado based staff we have a Grand Junction based staff. We're looking to expand staff based into Salt Lake City last year, Fall of 2019 I brought on a longtime subcontractor based in Brevard, North Carolina. So we have North Carolina based staff and we were trying to build up these we used to be a regional company that works nationally and now we're trying to become a national company that works regionally. And so we're trying to develop in scale through these through these these smaller regional hubs versus versus trying to take color out of staff all over the all over the country. Marc Gutman 53:05 Yes, anything scary about that? Greg Mazu 53:09 Uh, no and that's probably what I should be scared about. I mean, the great The great thing I get to do like for me personally for a guy that loves to travel it's like I get to go to Salt Lake and park see on a regular basis I get to hopefully you know go to Boulevard North Carolina and ride his gun and and and the trails and in Knoxville and down into Georgia and and you know, at some point we'll probably expand into new england and maybe Oregon in California and so so like, like, what was me I like I get to travel to great places and ride great trails and and hang out at great breweries and with great people all over the place. So no, it doesn't scare me. It makes me it makes me want to pop the clutch and punch the gas. Let's go. Yeah, Marc Gutman 53:58 I was gonna ask that. I think you just you answered the question, but I wasn't gonna you know, we know people do get wrong. You said like, Hey, you got the dream job but it does sound and a lot of respects you have the dream job and and you know, I was gonna ask do you really get to ride you know, the trails that you work on? Do you really get to experience the town's but I'll let you kind of answer that over again. But it sounds great. Greg Mazu 54:20 Yeah, the answer is yes. I have created a dream job and you know what, you know, even even on the crappy days in my staff now they they they they enjoy the crappy days just as much as they enjoy the great days. But no, I get to are there people that are more fit on a bicycle than me because they get to ride more often. Yes. However, I get to go to you know, all these great places and, and ride the great trail with somebody who knows it. Um, I have some other friends that I travel with every spring or fall we'll go to down to Arizona to the desert and whatnot. And I'll be like, Oh, you Yeah, I've got I've got Joe coming out to ride with us today. And they're like, Who? Like, like, Is there any place in the country that you can go and not be one phone call away from a ride partner? And I was like, No, I don't think so. And that was like, in that within that it really at that moment, it was just like, yeah, that's pretty badass. Marc Gutman 55:20 That is pretty badass. What about a trail drives you crazy? Like, what what do you see that you just just ruffles your feathers? Greg Mazu 55:28 When they when they force their will on to the terrain? You know, we can we can get into the nitpicking of like, all that corners too tight, or it's or or you should have gone below that rock or above that rock, you know, every you know, you know, it's it's art everybody has a different representation of, of what that art is, like a lot of people look at a Jackson Pollock and think he just threw paint on a canvas. And for me, it's when you take a you basically take the machine that you have you have a concept for a trail, and the train is not what that what that should be. Take. You know, we have to do this sometimes, but you have to build a green downhill trail across a black ski run like that. Is that the best use of that terrain? Probably not. If you're working in Iowa, you know, they want a rocky technical train, which is like a rocky technical trail. And it's just like, well with what rock like, this is Iowa. You guys, you guys sold off all your rocks 100 years ago for better farming. And and so when you when you just kind of, you know, engineer a trail that that's that's what bugs me, that's what bugs me the most you need. You need to take what the earth gives you and you need to to shape your trail because of that. Marc Gutman 56:47 If you could only ride one trail ever again. Which one would it be? And why? Just one, just one I know. It's hard. I know. It's hard. But I want to know, I want to know what you like, you know what your perfect trail looks like? Greg Mazu 57:02 One trail or one region? Marc Gutman 57:05 I'll give you a region. Greg Mazu 57:06 Grand Junction-Fruita Thank you. That was That was tough. I'm in the read. The reason being I love the desert. And the reason is, bikes are like shoes. trails are like shoes, you can't just have one pair, right? You need a pair of shoes for every event and so Grand Junction fruta it's the desert I love the desert. We have rocky technical trails there that we you know, we have built and also others have built there. We have the in between trails, and there's even some some pumpy jumpy trails. And that's where I would pick but as I ramble through this, this question like, there's a trail and Winter Park that we built a few years ago, we call it Howler. And that's like, I could ride that trail a whole lot. Marc Gutman 57:52 Nice. Nice. And so as we come to a close here, Greg, question we asked everyone on the show, if you ran into your 20 year old self today, what do you think he'd say? Greg Mazu 58:03 Hopefully a couple nice things. I mean, I was 20. I was opinionated. And not always the nicest of dudes to other people. So I think I would approve of the life choices that I that I have made. I have I have figured out how to take what has been given to me and and turn it into something that I enjoy. And I think that's, you know, trying to think back. This is a fantastic question, trying to think back about. I was desperately trying to be a road bike racer at the time, and I would probably be excessively disappointed that that didn't work out. But hopefully I would be smart enough to realize that I turn life into something pretty awesome. Marc Gutman 58:49 And that is Greg Mazu. Take what the land gives you. This keeps echoing in my head. And I can't help but think that's a metaphor for life as well. Especially as all our lives had been up ended during this pandemic, what our lives in the world look like if we took what it gave us, instead of trying to force engineer against it. Just a thought. Thank you again to Greg Mazu, singletrack trails and tools for trails. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie, you other storytellers can't deny.

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