Podcast appearances and mentions of Dan Brown

How can you tell where the real innovation in publishing is happening right now, and why is it emerging from the indie side first? How do you market your own book when you've spent 35 years marketing everyone else's? John Bond talks about Going Indie and what he's learned about authors who last. In the intro, my thoughts on writing with AI, Charles Dickens and encouragement for the 3-year-old dancing to K-Pop at the wedding, UK copyright law, The end of an era — Hugh Howey; Notre Dame, Paris; Today's show is sponsored by Bookfunnel, the essential tool for your author business. Whether it's delivering your reader magnet, sending out advanced copies of your book, handing out ebooks at a conference, or fulfilling your digital sales to readers, BookFunnel does it all. Check it out at bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn John Bond is the co-founder of Whitefox, a premium publishing services agency, and has over 35 years in traditional publishing, from bookselling to marketing and management. He's also the co-author of Going Indie: Publishing Your Book Your Way, with James Silver. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Why 2012 was a watershed moment for publishing in the UK Whether the snobbery around self-publishing has finally gone How to co-write a book with someone, and why there's no formula The pride swallowing involved in getting endorsement quotes for your own book The shadow economy of indie sales that no industry chart measures The hallmarks of writers who build a long-term career You can find John at wearewhitefox.com. Transcript of the interview with John Bond Jo: John Bond is the co-founder of Whitefox, a premium publishing services agency, and has over 35 years in traditional publishing, from bookselling to marketing and management. He's also the co-author of Going Indie: Publishing Your Book Your Way, with James Silver. So welcome back to the show, John. John: Thank you, Jo. Thanks so much for having me. Jo: You were last on the show in 2022. You've been on a couple of times, but just set the scene. Tell people a bit more about you and your long background in publishing. John: I suppose I could say I started as a marketing manager at Penguin back in the early 1990s in London, and that role eventually evolved into running sales and marketing, as it often does. I did that at Penguin and at HarperCollins. Then I ran one of the publishing divisions at HarperCollins, including 4th Estate, and published Hilary Mantel and Jonathan Franzen and Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and others. I left that in 2011 and set up Whitefox in 2012, and it's a classic startup story. It was somebody I worked with at HarperCollins. We sat around a kitchen table, came up with an idea for a business, which was Whitefox, and that's grown into the creative agency that it is today. Jo: So back then, did you think, “I can do this better”? Was that the impetus, “I can do publishing better than Penguin and HarperCollins”? John: No, I thought we would solve a problem. There's something very attractive about that whole startup mentality and beginning something from scratch. I mean, I was in my early 50s. I'd had a long career in traditional publishing. On the plus side, I knew a lot of people, and I thought I could get meetings, people would reply to my phone calls or my emails. On the downside, I didn't necessarily have the energy of a 20 to 25-year-old. I knew a lot of people and I knew quite a lot of things, and I also knew what problems something like Whitefox could solve. We set up with this idea that if we could galvanise and organise the diaspora of freelancers in the publishing space and make them available to anybody that wanted to make a book, that that would be quite a powerful thing. These incredibly creative, wonderful people who were below the radar and were not particularly valued or managed or utilised properly. I thought if we could access that and make that available not just to traditional publishing people who know about these people, but to individual authors, businesses, brands, people that wanted to make a book, and if you added a layer of our expertise from traditional publishing, that could be quite powerful, I suppose. That's what I was thinking back then. Jo: It's funny, though. You said these wonderful freelancers who were not particularly valued or managed or utilised properly. That could also apply to a lot of authors in traditional publishing. John: Totally. Totally. But if I'm honest, I don't think I was thinking about that. What's really evolved since we started, even in that 2011, 2012 period, is so much has happened to independent writers, indie authors. The whole ecosystem has become much more vibrant, and what is accessible to those writers is much greater. I'd like to think we've played a part in that. What that's done is put power back into writers' hands, and that quickly became apparent in the business as a byproduct of what we'd set up. Jo: Yes, and 2012 I do think in the UK was a pivot point, because I got into self-publishing in 2006/2007 when the Americans did with the beginning of the Kindle and the iPhone. Really the American ecosystem grew first. I happened to be in Australia, and so I think I was able to escape the negativity of the vortex in the UK, which took a number more years to embrace self-publishing as a force to be reckoned with as opposed to an embarrassing thing in the corner for vanity press. Do you see 2012 as a changing point in UK publishing? John: I think we'd just come out of the Kindle moment, hadn't we? There were all sorts of conversations going on about how that was going to change things forever. I think no one quite knew what the upshot of that was going to be, but we knew that it was incredibly disruptive. In 2012, Penguin, as it was then, before Penguin Random House, had offered to buy Author Solutions for $115 million, presumably seen as some kind of defensive measure as to what the market was going to evolve into. I think it felt like a real period of change. In the UK, James Daunt took over running Waterstones, and he was then ultimately going to run Barnes & Noble. It felt like a bit of a watershed. I think we were lucky in that sense, that maybe in the UK and in London, what we were creating coincided with an opening up of opportunity and creativity, and people wanting access to more tools to be able to do things themselves. Getting this idea that you invest in your own talent and what that could mean for your ability to do things quicker, better. Some of it was happenstance, but lucky for us. As you say, we then became aware that in a sense a lot of these things had come to fruition earlier on the US side. In London, that whole idea of setting up something that wasn't a traditional rights-owning model, but where you wanted to be working with people creatively, felt actually really exciting and timely. Jo: And when you started to work with independent authors, probably a couple of years after that, you started to work with a lot more indie authors and things really started to change in terms of the business side. Did you feel any of the snobbery from the traditional industry? Like you mentioned, you have a lot of contacts, a lot of connections. I came to your wonderful launch party and there were just people from all over the industry. I wondered if you got any kickback, or if anyone raised their eyebrows a little bit at who you were choosing to work with? John: Oh, definitely. And I would say I really think that's gone. You may think differently, Jo, but from my perspective, I think there has been such an evolution in the nearly 15 years that we've been going. So any of that residual snobbery, looking down your nose at people that were going DIY, producing multiple books, learning from every single publication. We've spoken about this before. I remember you sat on the panel of a FutureBook conference in the UK, which was run by a trade magazine, with this idea of looking at the, in quotes, “digital future of the business.” It felt like there were a lot of things being talked about, but not a lot of action on the traditional side. I suppose some sort of awe that there was some magic going on with people who were making a success of self-publishing. But then quite a lot of people looking down their noses at things that shouldn't get through the gatekeepers. I do think that's gone. Or if it's not completely gone, I can see it on the way out of the door, because there's no room for that when agents are struggling to sell books to publishers because publishers are looking at the next indie author, the next Freida McFadden, the next Sarah J. Maas, the next Rebecca Yarros. So whoever it may be, or wherever they're publishing, whatever they're doing now, wherever they may be, knowing that a lot of those people will already be publishing and be on not their first, second, third or fourth, but potentially their 10th or 11th book. It's a race to see who can help those authors, as a traditional publisher would see it, amplify what they're doing. I think the idea that there's an us and them, if it did exist then, which it certainly did in certain publishing quarters, is gone. I used to go to those conferences, like the FutureBook Conference, and certain publishers would talk about publishing, and when they meant publishing, they meant a really tiny area of quite literary, traditional imprints. That's what publishing meant. They didn't even mean publishing to mean educational publishing, or children's publishing, or academic publishing, and certainly not Kindle or POD or whatever. So I think that's had to change for very good, sound, commercial, economic reasons. Jo: Yes, you're right. I definitely have heard, as we go to similar events sometimes, and you do hear agents used to talk a lot more about finding books very occasionally in a slush pile, or doing courses so you could meet people and do pitch events and all this. Now it's often build an audience on BookTok or whatever, and sell lots of books, and traditional publishing as an amplifier, as you said. That's how I always hear them pitch it now, the question of— What can traditional publishing still do when indie authors can do so much? It does seem to be, well, we can amplify you, we can get you into traditional press, we can get you in traditional bookstores, we can help you with film and movie deals, that kind of thing. So that's really interesting, because that's actually changed quite a lot. They don't now seem to say, “Oh, well, we can make sure we pay you,” or, “We are editorial success as such.” John: I think they don't say editorial success or quality or indeed marketing, because that was what used to be said. I think there's an understanding that a lot of indie writers are better marketeers of their own books than traditional publishers, and if you go into the publishing machine, then you'll get your slot. It lasts for a certain period of time and then that moves on to another book. Whereas obviously if you're writing your own book and you're marketing your own book, you're able to do that yourself 24/7 wherever you are in the world, and you will know more about your readers and your audience and how that evolves than a traditional publisher would. What they probably mean now is, as you said, as much as anything, distribution, or even physical distribution. Because to be part of that process, I think that is still where a large conglomerate is able to wield some muscle, with this idea that if you physically want to see your book in bricks and mortar retailers in X outlets around the world, that's potentially easier to do if that is your aim, via a traditional publisher. So it is constantly evolving, because it used to be that marketing was the silver bullet, and I don't think that's the case anymore. Jo: No. We'll come back to marketing, shall we? Struggling with marketing. So let's get into your book. You recently co-wrote Going Indie with James Silver, Publishing Your Book Your Way. Obviously you already knew a lot about indie authors, so I wonder, what did you discover in the process of researching the book and the interviews you did? And I was one of your interviews. Did anything come up that surprised you, since you're already pretty embedded in the world? John: I would say some of it was reinforcing what I knew. So how everything is so intertwined, how in some ways unlinear everything is. People are doing lots of things in a different order to the way that traditionally writers would perceive this relay race of a manuscript gets passed to an editor, an editor passes on. That's just not how it is or needs to be anymore. I still think there is—not even a misconception—but I think there's a received wisdom that when you're talking about self-publishing, you're talking about fiction. The majority of books that Whitefox produces are not fiction, they're non-fiction. Some of them are quite mainstream, some of them are quite niche. That idea of connecting to your audience and your followers, and being slightly more scientific about how you find readers in your non-fiction niche, I think is still unspoken about in a way, in that genre fiction tends to be what people automatically assume the conversation is about. This probably doesn't surprise you, but I was pleasantly surprised to have it confirmed to me quite how much swapping and sharing there is of skills and knowledge in that space. I'm not saying indie writing is egoless at all, but there's quite a lot of sharing of knowledge and what works, and collaboration, which I think is great to see. Again, if you've, as I did many years ago, come out of corporate conglomerate publishing, traditional publishing, there's less of that by the very nature of the kind of organisation. And look, we just talked about marketing a little while ago. I do think this whole idea that the cutting edge of experimentation, it's not traditional publishing, it's indie writers. They are looking at not just how to find readers, but how to fulfil orders, how to make commercial sense of what they're doing from the absolute outset and get-go of what they're doing. And just how now the lines are blurring between what would be classified as traditional digital publishers and the writers who are doing their own thing, or doing their own thing on behalf of a few other writers. Those lines have completely blurred. There used to be this traditional hardback, paperback, X number of books a year, a year after hardback there's a paperback. This is the model we have been doing for centuries, and people doing things on their own. I think that's blurring massively, and the Venn diagrams of people's areas of expertise are just overlapping massively. Jo: Well, I think you're right there, and certainly the hardback special editions with sprayed edges and foil. A lot of us now are doing that first and not putting out the other, or putting out the rest of it at the same time. I dare say probably there are more indie authors with sprayed edge hardbacks than there are traditionally published authors. John: I'm sure that's right. And what's interesting is if you go to a traditional book printer, they are loving the direct communication with writers, that's not coming through traditional channels and traditional relationships. It's great business, it's interesting. I think that's something that's even developed in the last couple of years, that cutting out of some of the middle men required. Jo: Yes, and in terms of supporting freelancers and small publishing houses and printers and stuff, the other thing I've heard is that indie authors pay upfront, or they pay quickly, compared to some of these big publishers who are asking for long lead times and steep discounting. So actually a lot of these independent businesses are doing better under indie author work than they were under traditional. John: I think that's right, and that's what I mean also about the sharing of information and this collaborative idea of sharing creative knowledge. I mean, I'm making it sound like a kind of 19th century cooperative, which it isn't. I'm not suggesting that for a second. It's this idea that there's a lot of people learning a lot of things and there's a keenness to share some of that information, because if you've developed your own readership for your unique creative product, some of those learnings are very exciting. The printers I've spoken to love working on those kinds of things, because they are also being challenged to come up with new ways of developing ever more innovative physical product. Jo: Yes, I think it's a fun, creative time for sure. Things like Kickstarter, which you came on and talked about crowdfunding years ago, and I've obviously done. I think, what am I on now? Seven? I've just done my seventh. John: Wow. Jo: It's so much fun. But now what's happening is traditional publishers are arriving on Kickstarter and all that kind of thing. So we really see a blurring. Let's come back to your book, so Going Indie. You co-wrote it. Now obviously there are lots of positive sides of collaboration, but in terms of any challenges with collaboration and co-writing and the writing process of doing this? Because I've done this several times and I've found it very challenging. So tell us about the collaborative writing process. John: We thought a lot about it before we took it on. What I would say, having done it, is I am assuming there is no formula for how you do this. At Penguin I worked with a married couple who were crime writers, and they wrote books together. They merged their names so it appeared to be one name. I could not tell you, and they didn't share what that process was, whether they were writing different chapters or … I don't know. So I can only speak from my own experience. James is an established journalist. He's great with deadlines. He was very good at chivvying me along when I needed to be persuaded to hit the deadlines that I'd promised. I write blogs, I write newsletters, I write content for our website, but this is my first book. I've never written anything of this length. So in a way it started with the structure. It started with this idea that we would play to what we perceived as our respective strengths in terms of writing. We absolutely were not each writing every third word or anything like that. It was a process of trust in different parts. I thought, James had done some research and will be better at writing that. He deferred to me on areas that he took to be my areas of expertise. We did every interview for the book together. We went over the notes from those before they became part of the interviews for the book. And some of the book's elements are diagrammatic, so those are very easy to collaborate on. I think we tried to be professionally, creatively constructive with each other. So it was raising an eyebrow rather than shouting at each other if we didn't agree about something. A lot of it was down to the editing, and I don't know what your experience was like with a co-writer, but a lot of it came down to: here is something which is quite baggy. How do we, between us, make this as tight as we possibly can? I don't mean copy editing or proofreading. I mean the actual sort of, how do we get this into a pithy, usable, practical but discursive book? We didn't ever set out for this to be a pure reference book at all. We wanted to take a snapshot of what was going on. So a lot of it was genuinely trying to do some research and get people to feed into what was going on from lots of different perspectives, which is why we wanted to get mainstream traditional publishers, we wanted to get agents, we wanted to get indie writers, we wanted to get people who have all sorts of experiences and perspectives. That's what makes it what it is, which is, here's what we think are some of the interesting discussion points of what's going on now. Jo: It is a fantastic snapshot. I think it's really interesting—and obviously you also have seen my book, Successful Self-Publishing, which is on its fourth edition—this is one of the difficult things with snapshot type books. So have you already thought about that? I know this one has just come out, but have you thought, “Oh no, in five years we have to do it again”? John: Well, I think we thought we're going to have to address AI, which we do in the book, and we really tried to caveat that with saying, look, so much may change so quickly, and here we are talking about what we know now. We obviously tried to set the context for where we are now, and we tried as much as possible to make something which would last as long as we can. I think what we did think was, we have tried to make it as international a perspective as possible. But at the same time, we are a London-based agency, and a lot of the views will be from people based in the UK. So I think what I would like to explore is something that looks at potentially somewhere like the US, where I think there'll be different people that would perhaps have different perspectives on different things. So I think we thought about potentially there being future iterations of the book, but not yet. Jo: Not yet. This is the challenge with non-fiction, of course. On that, I would say what you just said around the US and stuff, the successful UK authors all use the same systems as the US. So I wouldn't say that the US … I mean, we all have the US companies we all use. I say Kobo is obviously Canadian, but I would say that we use the same ways of doing things. Obviously you might interview a different author, but … John: That was all I meant. I meant interviewing. Because we've interviewed agents and authors and publishers and they are largely UK based. So it was the idea that maybe there are some perspectives on things rather than systemic. Jo: Differences. John: Yes. Just that. Jo: So then I guess another challenge, we've kind of nodded to it so far, is marketing. So let's talk about the challenges of getting this book out in terms of publishing and marketing. Because you've been on the inner circle side, trying to do that for other people's books, but your own book, this is a whole nother thing. So tell us about that. John: Well, how do you do it, Jo? I mean, honestly, I've loved some of it. I get how you become completely obsessed with your book and trying to make sure that you can get it into the hands of the people that you want to get it into the hands of. We've got some great endorsement quotes, which was a task that, how can I say this? I would call it pride swallowing. The idea that you really try and get people to say nice things about your book and, if they don't reply, you think, “How much do I pester them? How much do I annoy them by asking them again nicely?” And the absolute sheer unadulterated joy when they come back with something positive that you can use and utilise in some way. So that whole process of waiting for feedback, I suppose, and hoping that people are going to like what you've done and help you spread the word for it. We had a launch event, we've given books away. We've published the book as ebook and POD. I think one of the great things about that is it's enabled us to be completely adaptable and make changes right up until the last minute. That drove everybody in my team completely crazy because we were making changes up until the last minute. So, is the book definitely going to be available on publication date? What's it going to do? You know, all of that kind of stuff. Also, just getting this idea that I suppose you can never stop. Is that a very obvious thing to say to a writer? It probably is. You just can't stop, because if you go, “Right, well, I've done it,” complacency is the enemy. Just as soon as you've got that quote, or someone said that they're going to give you an opportunity to talk about it on a platform, it's just another day and you've got to keep thinking about how you can spread the word and tell people that it exists. Jo: Yes, well, I think that's right, and particularly non-fiction, which unless it's very timely and you must get it out right now. But other than that— Most books you just have to keep marketing for years. Then just as you say, when do you stop? Well, you kind of never stop unless you want to, unless you want to retire and just give up, basically. Dean Wesley Smith, who's a big writer in the US and a kind of a mentor of mine in past years, he talks about it as this massive sea of books. And when a book arrives, he pictures it coming down and landing on the water. So the day you launch, it's landed on the water, and then it begins to sink. Then there are all these other books coming down. It's like this rain of books, and your book is sinking as soon as it lands. And your job is to keep it afloat somehow. John: Keep it afloat. Jo: Yes. John: I think you're right, and it's such an interesting perspective for us, who work with a lot of people who have one book. You know, they've spent 10 years writing it. It's their life story. It's their memoir. It's their self-help book. It's their book that accompanies them on their speaking journey, or whatever. Then there are the people who are writing constantly and can't stop writing because they're exercising that creative muscle all the time and wanting to get better, and wanting to improve and learn and understand why this works and why that hasn't worked. Just getting a glimpse into what it must be like for that person for whom writing is not a hobby. I kept saying to myself, “This is not something you're doing as a hobby.” I want this book to be of value to people, and if I'm investing that time and effort into something that I want to get out there, you've got to commit to whatever it is you need to do to make sure you're not sinking. Jo: Yes. John: I will now not be able to get that image out of my head. Jo: Yes. I know there's people listening who don't have a mind's eye, which I always find fascinating, but for those of us with a mind's eye, you can now picture that and you will never forget it. The other thing, I guess, is that, having done a lot, over 40 books now, the inevitable thing is you cannot keep pushing all of those books back up to the surface. So when you do get the bug as such of writing, the most interesting thing for all of us is always the next book. It's always like, ooh, the next thing I'm doing, I'm very excited about. So you do have to pick your battles on marketing. So have you got the bug, do you think? Are you thinking of other books in general? Because as you said, you must be, I guess, in your 60s. John: I am. Jo: You could retire. John: I am. You were talking about that long career. I could. I mean, I really love doing it, and I would love to do more. I think one of the things that surprised me was just how many ideas came up while we were doing the book about tangents that one could take it. I have no desire to write a novel. I don't want to do that. I wouldn't be very good at that. I do think there are some interesting spaces around where there's a kind of intersection of creativity and learning, and how you can develop books that would help people who are trying to achieve different things in different sectors of publishing. So without getting too granular about it, this book doesn't really address brands who want to become publishers, and I think that is something that our business has developed into working with, not just individuals, but businesses and brands. I think there's definitely spin-offs of this book which are not about repeating what we've done so far. And this whole idea of what you've been doing for a long time, what we've been doing since 2011, 2012, it's evolving now at such a speed. I mean, who would have known what was going to come out of TikTok? As you talk about TikTok to Shopify, that whole kind of new ways of finding readers, of taking books to market. As you said, Kickstarter, crowdfunding. There's all sorts of things that I think will emerge, because in a funny sort of way traditional publishing at the moment feels quite conservative with a small c. I mean, the bestsellers. Dan Brown is number one in the bestseller list this week in the UK as I speak, who has been a bestseller forever. And obviously new writers come along the whole time, but the market feels a little bit as if it's waiting now for innovation. I think if that innovation's going to happen, it's probably going to happen in the indie space before it happens in mainstream publishing. So people are coming to us and thinking, does that represent a trend? Does that represent something which could be a way of looking at something a little bit deeper, doing some research around and creating something which is not a long book, not a massive thesis, but something which is indicative of something which could be useful for people. Jo: Just coming back on the Dan Brown is in the bestseller list. I think this is completely to do with the way that traditional publishing measures things. For many years, more than a decade, probably since the beginning of Kindle, certainly the beginning of Kindle Unlimited, there is a shadow economy, I call it, or a parallel economy. I would say that almost zero of my own personal sales are measured by any industry standards. Anyone who makes any money from Kindle Unlimited or Kickstarter or Shopify, or selling direct in any form, or selling books at conventions, none of this is measured by any traditional things. As you know, the New York Times list, for example, does not include Amazon sales in their bestseller list. So you've got indie authors in the UK who are incredibly successful who have to decide, say, someone like LJ Ross, for example, decides, “Okay, I'm going to set up a proper imprint with Gardners or whatever so that I can get in bookstores so that I can hit a Sunday Times list or something.” So I would say that seeing things like Dan Brown on a bestseller list has almost no meaning in the shadow indie economy. John: No, you're absolutely right. We're not even able to see audiobook sales. Jo: Yes, audio. Any kind of borrows, like Spotify. John: No, you're completely right. I suppose I was making a broader cultural point, that it doesn't feel like there's an enormous amount of innovation going on or risk taking within what I would call mainstream trade publishing. And there doesn't seem to be the need to be, because there will be more consolidation. Small companies will be bought by big companies, so there's growth through acquisition. There's still a hope that something will take off that is a surprise, and there's still an enormous reliance on established brands who, even through the traditional metrics of how you measure them, are probably selling less, but still at the top of the pile. I suppose that's what I was meaning. Jo: Yes, and I agree with what the industry looks at as signals. It's just, as we said, a lot of these signals are invisible. So coming onto innovation, at London Book Fair this year there were a lot of sessions on AI, and you mentioned AI briefly, and there is a chapter in Going Indie on generative AI. And of course there's a lot of negativity and drama and lawsuits and this, that and the other. But at the same time, at London Book Fair, a lot of traditional publishers talking about using it, and of course they always say, “Oh, we use AI only in marketing and business, not with the creative or editorial.” Everyone makes this distinction. What are your thoughts on what's happening and where's it going with AI? Is a lot of this stuff not happening in public and just going on behind closed doors? John: I think so. We do have a chapter in the book on AI. We've generated summaries of every chapter using AI, which we explicitly said in the book as well. We've got our Ten Commandments of what we think are useful guidelines. I think that there has to be an enormous amount being done, whether it's experimentation or speeding up for efficiency's sake, or things that slow you down, within mainstream publishing. There has to be more than just the guardrails around the creative process. And clearly when we're talking about metadata, book description, cover copy, presumably royalty calculations, presumably if you're trying to grow your newsletters. There has to be an enormous amount of activity going on. We're driven by the market, so we do not commission. Writers come to us and they either want to work with us and we want to work with them, or that doesn't happen. So we're in a sense seeing what the market is seeing, and that is a whole range of things. As I've said before, there's a lot of sweeping generalisations out there, which if you look back to that Kindle moment, we were talking a little while ago about what was going on in 2010/2011, about the enormous broad brush strokes that were being perceived as a result of Kindle. Kindle has affected some areas of publishing, it's affected some not at all. I think it will be absolutely fascinating when the sweeping generalisations stop and there becomes, I suppose, even more transparency. The thing that people are looking for, isn't it? A little bit less opaqueness as to what is really being done. Because everybody's being so careful about what they say they're doing and what they're not doing. I suppose ElevenLabs is the one where people are openly engaging on the audio side. I mean, everyone is being so careful and cautious. Jo: Me too. John: What do you think? We spoke a bit about AI within the book, and I'm interested to know what you think. Jo: Well, I've obviously been openly talking about it since 2016. I openly talk about using it, and I've got my Patreon community where we talk about how we're using it, and tips on how to use it. But then, because I have been writing and publishing since 2007, 2008, I'm very strong in my creative voice. I'm very strong in my understanding of what I consider to be my level of output, and what I publish under my own name is what I publish under my own name. John: Totally. Jo: So the problem is for people who are less confident, I think, in what they're doing creatively perhaps. I know some people feel like they're scared it will take over or something. When you're as strong-minded as me, it's not taking over anything. John: It's not going to take over anything. And the other side of the coin is how many people are finding Whitefox using ChatGPT. Jo: Mm. John: I'm thrilled that we are emerging, through very detailed briefing of AI, as something that is worth engaging with. Jo: Positive marketing. John: Yes, exactly. As you say, I think there's a lot of negativity, and I think it will settle down eventually. I think less hysteria. Jo: Yes, hopefully sooner rather than later. So as we come to an end, you've been in the publishing industry a long time and seen a lot of people who have disappeared, but also those who've lasted. I wondered if maybe you could comment on those who last, because I definitely feel like I'm in my 50s now, and I want to keep doing this. I'm pretty obsessed with— What are the hallmarks of people who have a long-term career? So reflections on that. John: Oh, that's such a good question. I think there's some common characteristics and themes. So I think authenticity, I think this idea of being continually curious. I think there are people who can't help but create, and this idea that once you've sort of expelled once, that's enough. I think there's people that just can't stop creating, whatever you do with it. But this idea that the more you do, the better you get, the more you evolve and keep an open mind. I think there's definitely entrepreneurial writers who love this idea of keeping their readers engaged, and how that conversation is something that evolves and that collaboration evolves, is fascinating. I think if you love that, and you listen, there's always an opportunity to keep building on what you do. I love the writers who we work with. I can think of a writer who we're working on his fourth novel at the moment, and he is a bundle of positivity. No matter the trials and tribulations, the things that have gone wrong, his expectations definitely not being met with his first book. He definitely has this idea that he wants to keep writing, he wants to get better, and he is getting better. It isn't a journey that has a beginning and an end. It's something that will continue for as long as he wants to write. Every single book that he has published, he has learned and gained confidence, gained a network of connections that he's utilised himself now to not make the first half a dozen mistakes he made on the first book. Who knows where it will end up? But certainly the satisfaction he's getting, and the sales he's getting, are growing as he becomes savvier and quicker to make the right choices and decisions. So I think that's my honest answer to that. I think there are definitely people who think, “Phew, I have really wanted to do this book. Now I can rest easy. I've done my book.” Then there are people who really, whatever their objective, whatever the definition of success is from the get-go, just can't help creating. I do love that and respect that. I don't think our book falls quite into that category, because I think it's a slightly different thing. I think there are people who are still making a success of what they do and redefining that as they go on, and who are really open to ideas and input from different people and are not closed off. I love working with those people. Jo: So where can people find Going Indie and everything you do online? John: Well, Going Indie is available online at all good bookshops. It's available at Amazon and anywhere you buy books online as ebook and POD. Our website is wearewhitefox.com, and you'll find information about not just our book there, but a lot of other things that we're doing on that site. Jo: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, John. That was great. John: Thank you so much, Jo. It's been a pleasure. The post Going Indie, Publishing Innovation, And The Challenges Of Book Marketing With John Bond first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Micah T. Dank was born in 1983 in Oceanside New York. From a young age, he had wanted to be a writer, coming from a family of writers. His father was a producer and radio news editor at CBS News in Manhattan and his grandfather was a Producer at CBS News. Micah was an actor in High School and became interested in writing from his 12th grade English teacher Russell Reid. From there he majored in English at SUNY Albany and transferred down to CUNY Hunter College in Manhattan to earn his Bachelors's degree in ‘Language Literature and Criticism'. It wasn't until he moved to Boston for a new job that he became interested in all the esoteric sciences including astrology and astrotheology prevalent through his book series. Micha is an author with his new series “Into the Rabbit Hole”. His first book is “Into the Veil” which he compared to Dan Brown's “Davinci Code”. Micah explores astrology and the hidden codes in the bible and how it relates to what is real and what is possible related to politics, conspiracy, fringe medicine, history, language and what it means to survive in these times! United Public Radio & UFO Paranormal Radio www.uprntalkradio.com

Nghe trọn nội dung sách nói Bí Mật Tối Thượng trên ứng dụng Voiz FM: https://voiz.vn/play/7157/Đoạn trích giới thiệu một kiệt tác giật gân, nghẹt thở mang đậm phong cách của "ông hoàng tiểu thuyết bí ẩn" Dan Brown, đánh dấu sự trở lại của vị giáo sư biểu tượng học quen thuộc Robert Langdon trong một cuộc hành trình ly kỳ mới.Lần này, bối cảnh câu chuyện bắt đầu tại thành phố cổ kính Prague, nơi Langdon đến để ủng hộ bạn gái mới của mình - Katherine Solomon, một nhà khoa học trí tuệ học xuất chúng. Katherine đang nắm giữ một bản thảo bùng nổ, chứa đựng những phát hiện chấn động về ý thức con người có nguy cơ lật nhào mọi niềm tin tôn giáo và triết học suốt nhiều thế kỷ. Tuy nhiên, một vụ án mạng tàn bạo xảy ra đã biến chuyến đi thành thảm kịch: Katherine đột ngột mất tích cùng tập bản thảo vô giá. Langdon lập tức rơi vào tầm ngắm của một tổ chức ngầm quyền lực và bị truy sát gắt gao bởi một kẻ ám sát máu lạnh có hành tung như bước ra từ thần thoại cổ xưa của vùng Prague.Cuộc rượt đuổi nghẹt thở không chỉ dừng lại ở Prague mà nhanh chóng mở rộng quy mô sang các siêu đô thị London và New York. Tại đây, Langdon phải chạy đua với thời gian để vừa giải cứu người yêu, vừa giải mã những bí ẩn nằm ở ranh giới giữa khoa học tương lai và thế giới truyền thuyết thần bí. Phía cuối con đường, ông sẽ phải đối mặt với một sự thật kinh hoàng về một dự án bí mật - thứ có thể tái định nghĩa và thay đổi vĩnh viễn cách nhân loại hiểu về tâm trí của chính mình.Tại ứng dụng sách nói Voiz FM, sách nói Bí Mật Tối Thượng được đầu tư chất lượng âm thanh và thu âm chuyên nghiệp, tốt nhất để mang lại trải nghiệm nghe tuyệt vời cho bạn.---Về Voiz FM:Voiz FM là ứng dụng sách nói podcast ra mắt thị trường công nghệ từ năm 2019. Với gần 2000 tựa sách độc quyền, Voiz FM hiện đang là nền tảng sách nói podcast bản quyền hàng đầu Việt Nam. Bạn có thể trải nghiệm miễn phí đa dạng nội dung tại Voiz FM từ sách nói, podcast đến truyện nói, sách tóm tắt và nội dung dành cho thiếu nhi.---Voiz FM website: https://voiz.vn/Theo dõi Facebook Voiz FM: https://www.facebook.com/VoizFMTham khảo thêm các bài viết review, tổng hợp, gợi ý sách để lựa chọn sách nói dễ dàng hơn tại trang Blog Voiz FM: http://blog.voiz.vn/---Cảm ơn bạn đã ủng hộ Voiz FM. Nếu bạn yêu thích sách nói Bí Mật Tối Thượng và các nội dung sách nói podcast khác, hãy đăng ký kênh để nhận thông báo về những nội dung mới nhất của Voiz FM channel nhé. Ngoài ra, bạn có thể nghe BẢN FULL ĐỘC QUYỀN hàng chục ngàn nội dung Chất lượng cao khác tại ứng dụng Voiz FM.Tải ứng dụng Voiz FM: voiz.vn/download#voizfm #podcast #bimattoithuong #danbrown

Are we one generation away from a synchronized societal collapse? Today, Mike and Chris unpack the terrifying near-future dystopian thriller Eulogy for the Stripes with debut author Michael McGehee. No spoilers!Set in 2049, this cautionary tale ditches the super-soldier tropes for an everyday analyst navigating an authoritarian uniparty, a constitutional crisis, and a devastating standoff in Texas. Michael reveals how his 20-year career in Air Force logistics and systems tech inspired this hyper-realistic breakdown of American infrastructure and institutions. —

In this episode, we dive deep into the journey of real estate mogul Dan Brown, founder of Blue Mahi Real Estate. From dropping out of college and selling jewelry to grinding in the timeshare trenches at Wyndham, Dan has picked himself up by his bootstraps to build an absolute empire. Tune in as Dan shares his invaluable playbook on transitioning from a top-producing agent to an independent business owner, leveraging virtual assistants to reclaim your time, and shifting from transactional sales to building a powerful, community-driven brand. Whether you are a business owner, entrepreneur, or sales professional, this episode is packed with major golden nuggets to help you scale faster! If you need extra bandwidth and the leverage of a VA, grab a spot that fits your week: https://bit.ly/4cj3SqG #RealEstateEmpire #TheLeveragePodcast #RealEstateAgent #RealEstateInvesting #VirtualAssistants #BusinessScaling #SalesPlaybook #Entrepreneurship #CommunityBranding

Obrolan bersama Eka, Abdyka dan Lita

Back with our once-a-month Shakespeare, this week wrapping up the trilogy of Henry plays with my personal favorite, Henry V. This week I did a quick review of how I read Shakespeare--movie, Folgers Shakespeare edition--and then we jumped into the play. After the humor of Falstaff and the exploits of our Prince Harry, Henry V is decidedly more serious. Prince Harry has become King Henry V, and he's going to war to claim the French throne. Shakespeare gives us a guide, the Chorus, who navigates the action as we watch Harry lead his army through the siege at Harfleur and the slog to Calais. The ragged army arrives at the field of Agincourt vastly outnumbered by a fresh French army when Henry gives what I think is one of the finest speeches in all of Shakespeare (although I have only nine other plays to compare to!). The "band of brothers" St. Crispin's Day speech is one for the ages!The play isn't only about battles, though. We see Harry struggle with betrayal and the consequences of leadership, and we see him court Princess Katherine of France in some of the lighter moments of the play. And while we no longer have Falstaff, the French leadership provide their own share of comic relief, which must have played well in Elizabethan England, too.By the way, you truly MUST watch the Kenneth Branagh movie, Henry V. As of July 2026 it's included in Amazon Prime--this is a movie that will win over the most anti-Shakespeare person in your life.Next month we take on our first comedy, As You Like It. And we are choosing plays to read in the coming months over on the Substack chat--please let me know what you want to read! That link is below.And next week, we take a closer look at the historical Henry V with Dan Brown's 2024 biography. Will the real Henry V please stand up?BOOKS IN THIS EPISODEThe Folgers Shakespeare Library: Henry IV Part 1, Part 2; Henry V; As You Like ItDan Brown's Henry VCONNECTLet's talk about Shakespeare: Crack the Book Substack ChatThe complete list of Crack the Book Episodes (Amazon affiliate links): https://cheryldrury.substack.com/p/crack-the-book-start-here?r=u3t2rTo read more of my writing, visit my Substack - https://www.cheryldrury.substack.com.Follow me on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/cldrury/ Like what you heard? Buy me a coffee! https://ko-fi.com/crackthebookLISTENSpotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/5GpySInw1e8IqNQvXow7Lv?si=9ebd5508daa245bdApple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/crack-the-book/id1749793321 Captivate - https://crackthebook.captivate.fm

Crowley Clark joins No Limits: The Thriller Podcast for a non-spoiler conversation about Shadows of the Fathers, his debut thriller set inside Mexico's cartels — a novel brimming with suspense, passion, family drama, legacy, and a touch of the occult. Crowley also shares his process for crafting characters, writing dialogue, and marketing a first novel.“Crowley Clark delivers in this explosive Jack-Ryan-meets-James-Reece debut that won't stay in the shadows for long.” — ThrillerPod.com—

LaToya and Barry conducted their 201st podcast episode, discussing various personal updates and topics. LaToya shared details about moving her home office to her bedroom due to upcoming house guests, including a new sit-stand desk and monitor setup. They discussed their experiences with the recently completed World Cup tournament and MLS soccer, including Atlanta United's performance. LaToya mentioned reading Andy Weir books, and Barry discussed his recent reading of Dan Brown's latest novel. Both talked about their use of the Refract app as a replacement for TV Time to track their media consumption. LaToya revealed she had injured her foot after the World Cup and was starting GLP-1 medication again, while Barry shared that he would need to stop taking Ozempic two weeks before his upcoming colonoscopy. They also discussed Barry's writing career and royalty income, and LaToya's upcoming cruise plans. The conversation concluded with them noting they had 199 episodes remaining before reaching their 400th episode milestone.

Host Jacob Shymanski and Red Széll share some fun reads to enjoy on a warm summer night. They also explore the guilt of listening to books that are formulaic and easy to digest.   Books mentioned in this episode include:   “The Da Vinci Code” by Dan Brown   “One Golden Summer” by Carly Fortune   “Dream Harbor” and “The Daisy Chain Café” by Laurie Gilmore   “The Count of Monte Cristo” by Alexandre Dumas “The Wandering Inn” by Pirateaba   “Around the World in Eighty Days” by Jules Verne   “The Making of Another Major Motion Picture Masterpiece” by Tom Hanks “Falling Animals” and “The Red Mouth” by Sheila Armstrong   “After Midnight” by Stephen King   “Ender's Game” by Orson Scott Card   This episode was produced by Andrika De Lanerolle.  Audiobook Café is broadcast on AMI-audio in Canada and publishes two new podcast episodes a week on Fridays and Saturdays at 1 p.m. ET. Follow Audiobook Café on Instagram @AMIAudiobookCafe We want your feedback!Be that comments, suggestions, hot-takes, audiobook recommendations or reviews of your own… hit us up! Our email address is: AudiobookCafe@ami.ca About AMIAMI is a media company that entertains, informs and empowers Canadians with disabilities through three broadcast services — AMI-tv and AMI-audio in English and AMI-télé in French — and streaming platform AMI+. Our vision is to establish AMI as a leader in the offering of accessible content, providing a voice for Canadians with disabilities through authentic storytelling, representation and positive portrayal. To learn more visit AMI.ca and AMItele.ca.Find more great AMI Original Content on AMI+Learn more at AMI.caConnect with Accessible Media Inc. online:X /Twitter @AccessibleMediaInstagram @AccessibleMediaInc / @AMI-audioFacebook at @AccessibleMediaIncTikTok @AccessibleMediaInc Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Andy Burnham has promised a new style of politics after becoming Britain's seventh Prime Minister – but can he deliver?In this special episode of Northern Spin, co-hosts Chris Maguire and Frank McKenna discuss:Burnham's five prioritiesHow does Burnham win over a doubtful media?What should Burnham do this summer?Burnham's message for businessAs well as all things Burnham, Maguire and McKenna will also discuss:Greater Manchester's mayoral by-electionJudgement day for LancashireChaos in OldhamNorthern Spin is a joint production from BusinessCloud and Downtown in Business. The podcast is produced by Dan Brown of Renowned and sponsored by Sancus Lending UK.

Die Amerikaner, Jackson Suber, loop op vyf onder baansyfer 65 voor na die eerste rondte van die 154ste Ope Kampioenskap op Royal Birkdale in Engeland. Dis die 26-jarige Suber se ope-debuut en eerste besoek aan Europa. Hy is een hou voor Dan Brown van Engeland en die Suid-Koreaan, Im Sung-jae. Die verdedigende kampioen, Scottie Scheffler van Amerika, het geopen met twee onder 68. Rory McIlroy van Noord-Ierland het sy poging vir ʼn sewende major-titel met ʼn teleurstellende twee oor 72 begin. Suber sê hy het die eerste rondte geniet:

The Detective Jackson Suber (-5) leads by one over Sungjae Im and Dan Brown after the first day at Royal Birkdale. Join us as we break down all the action from the 2026 Open Championship, including Down the Leaderboard, news and notes, and much more. Presented by Titleist. Support our sponsors: FootJoy - the #1 shoe in Golf! High Noon - Sun's Up! Golf Pride - 20% off with NLU20 at https://golfpride.com AT&T - Connection Changes Everything Looking to travel this year, check out East Sands Golf Co.: https://www.eastsandsgolf.co/nlu Join us in our support of the Evans Scholars Foundation: https://nolayingup.com/esf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of Fully Booked, Roland and Craig are joined by Ralph R. “Rick” Steinke, a 28 year U.S. Army veteran, West Point graduate, former Defense Attaché to France, and author of the Major Jake Forina thriller series. Rick shares how a career spent commanding troops, working with NATO, leading counterterrorism efforts, and building international partnerships has shaped the stories he writes today. From deadly virus outbreaks to the Russia Ukraine conflict, he explains how real world experience helps him create fast paced thrillers that feel both authentic and cinematic. The conversation also explores Rick's approach to the writing process, including what he learned from James Patterson, Dan Brown, and Ken Follett, why he combines planning with discovery as he writes, and how short chapters and strong cliffhangers keep readers turning the page. Rick also shares insights from his writing journey, including how he balances realism with entertainment and the realities of publishing on Amazon. Whether you're writing your own thriller or simply enjoy stories inspired by today's global events, this episode is packed with insight and inspiration.   Ralph R. “Rick” Steinke https://ricksteinke.com/   Hidden Gems Need our help publishing or marketing your book?  https://www.hiddengemsbooks.com/author-services/   All episode details and links:  https://www.hiddengemsbooks.com/podcast

Dan Brown er en af verdens mest læste forfattere, og forfatter til en af de mest solgte romaner nogensinde: Da Vinci Mysteriet. I denne podcast møder du Dan Brown til en samtale om sin fascination af videnskab. Han fortæller om sin research og sit samarbejde med forskere, og så hører du om hans nyeste roman, Den ultimative hemmelighed, der handler om den menneskelige bevidsthed. I en tid med kunstig intelligens og konstante afbrydelser er emnets aktualitet ubestridelig, og står det til Dan Brown gør netop det romanlæsning vigtigere end før. Samtalen er optaget i Gammel Læsesal på Det Kongelige Bibliotek. Det er et stemningsfuldt rum fyldt med gamle bøger, symboler og fortællinger, akkurat som Browns romaner. I hans univers spiller fortidens fortællinger og tegn nemlig en stor rolle. Her finder hovedpersonerne kryptiske spor gemt i gamle biblioteker, samlinger og arkiver i deres jagt på at løse mysterier og gåder.  Podcasten er optaget til arrangementet "International Forfatterscene: Dan Brown i samtale med Stephanie Surrugue", som foregik på Det Kongelige Bibliotek i Den Gamle Læsesal 22. september 2026. Det kan du læse mere om her. Forfatter: Dan Brown Samtalepartner: Stephanie Surrugue Speak: Lise Bach Hansen Podcasten er produceret i samarbejde med GoLittle Creative.

St. Albans High football coach Dan Brown, and Bill Lynch of the Gazette-Mail.

Army Ranger and Green Beret Jack Murphy joins us to discuss his explosive new military thriller, The Most Dangerous Man. We dive into the inspiration behind Staff Sgt. Jeremy Lopez's fight for survival when he becomes the ultimate prey in a deadly game of billionaire hunters, the real-world tactics that make this book so authentic, and what it's like to write a modern “Most Dangerous Game” with a Special Forces twist. No spoilers — just a conversation about craft, combat, and what makes a hunter truly dangerous. —

On the latest episode of the ABA Banking Journal Podcast — sponsored by Q2 Software — ABA economist Dan Brown discusses the recent release of Home Mortgage Disclosure Act (HMDA) data for 2025. He examines several trends, including the varying composition of bank mortgage loans in different regions, where banks face the stiffest nonbank competition in the mortgage market, a recent rebound in refinancings and a growing generation gap in homebuying activity.

In this spoiler-filled review of Choke Point by Brad Thor, we break down the return of a major character, the biggest twists, and how the latest Scot Harvath thriller lands overall. If you've read the book, this is the full spoiler conversation. —

Poisonous plants in pastures can pose serious risks to grazing cattle, especially when conditions change throughout the season. In this Successful Farming Saturday Short, Cornell University animal science professor Dan Brown explains how plant toxicity varies by region, dose, and time of year. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

National Kissing day. National Onion Ring day.Entertainment from 1996. Galileo sentenced to prison, 16 year old boy ivented the donut, Germany invaded Soviet Union. Todays birthdays - Kris Kristofferson, David L. Lander, Todd Rundgren, Lindsay Wagner, Meryl Streep, Cyndi Lauper, Freddie Prinze, Green Gartside, Tracy Pollan, Dan Brown, Carson Daly. George Carlin Died.Intro - God did good - Dianna Corcoran   https://diannacorcoran.com/Shut up and kiss me - Mary Chapin CarpenterTha Crossroads - Bone Thugs N HarmonyTime marches on - Tracey LawrenceBirthdays - In da club - 50 Cent http://50cent.com/Sunday Mornin' comin down - Kris KristoffersonBang on the drums all day - Todd RundgrenGirls just wanna have fun - Cyndi LauperPerfect way - Scritti PollitiExit - Drinks alone - Paige Rutledge https://www.paigerutledge.com/History & Factoids about today Playlist on SpotifyHistory & Factoids about today webpagecooolmedia.comcountryundergroundradio.comNational Days - May Puzzle BookGrace & Grit Christian Country Radio

Stačila jediná kniha a z autora, kterého do té doby znal jen omezený okruh čtenářů, se stal celosvětový fenomén. Jeho romány proměnily dějiny umění, náboženské symboly i tajné spolky v napínavou hru plnou šifer, záhad a konspiračních teorií. Miliony lidí po přečtení jeho knih zamířily do muzeí, kostelů i na další místa, včetně Prahy, která se stala kulisami jeho příběhů. Americký spisovatel Dan Brown se narodil 22. června 1964.

How does a husband-and-wife team co-author a spy thriller? Bill and Karen Brodsky (K.B. Brodsky) join No Limits to discuss their debut political thriller, Beyond Honor — a novel that blends the tension of Red Sparrow with the high-stakes momentum of The Terminal List.They talk about their collaborative writing process, balancing two perspectives on espionage fiction, and crafting a story built around CIA betrayal and an Oval Office conspiracy.For spy thriller fans curious about how married co-authors create espionage fiction together, this interview is a must-listen.—

Our guest today is the hugely successful author of twisty, suspenseful, page-turning, gripping novels - such as Tell No One, Fool Me Once and Deal Breaker - Harlan Coben. Here, Harlan talks to Gyles about his childhood, spent in a very ordinary all-American town in New Jersey, which had secrets and rumours lurking beneath its cookie-cutter exterior. He talks about his family - his inspirational father who died too young, and his mother, who lied about her age and was a feminist and a wild-child. He talks about his grandfather's shady mafia dealings. He talks about falling in love, being at college with Dan Brown, and the poetry of Bruce Springsteen. Harlan also talks in depth and detail about his approach to writing. If you've loved any of Harlan's brilliant books or watched any of the thrilling Netflix adaptations of his work - you will find this fascinating. If you're not yet familiar with Harlan's work - you'll want to be after listening to this. What a charming, perceptive and wise person... Thank you Harlan for your time, energy and stories. Enjoy this. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Full show: https://kNOwBETTERHIPHOP.com Artists Played: The Heart and Brain, conshus, Leisure Chief, Fly Anakin, Quelle Chris, Domo Genesis, Les Imprimes, Ama Li, Maka, Phlow, Nick Hakim, Dan Brown, Fleur, Odell, Bonobo, Mega Ran, DJ DN3, E-Turn, Chuck Strangers, Obii Say, Allison Russell, Joy Oladokun, Julie Williams, Awon, Jazzy Soto, Quadeca, corto.alto, anaiis, GAYANCE, Magi Merlin, funkywhat, Khujo, Cee Lo, OutKast, GOODie MOb, IMAKEMADBEATS

Brad Thor joins No Limits: The Thriller Podcast for a spoiler-free conversation about Choke Point, Scot Harvath, and the real-world landscape fueling his latest thriller. We dive deep into the geopolitics shaping the novel — covering China, Taiwan, Thailand, and the tensions that define America's global role today.From China–Taiwan relations and the Taiwan Strait to regional power struggles in Southeast Asia, Brad explains how real-world geopolitics drives his storytelling and why he believes thrillers can help save America. This is a high-stakes, political chat about espionage, global conflict, and the role of spy fiction in understanding today's most dangerous geopolitical flashpoints.Perfect for fans of Brad Thor, Scot Harvath, Jack Carr, and readers who want to understand the real-world stakes behind the action.—

A SECRETIVE religious group that wields power in Washington, D.C. and other world capitals — sounds like the basis for Dan Brown's next novel, but it's real. Jeff Sharlet, author of The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, has been following this group for years, even living at The Family's headquarters for a time. What he found is a group that justifies its pursuit of political power by claiming that it's for the kingdom of God.Read Jeff's original expose of The Family, “Jesus Plus Nothing,” at Harper's Magazine online. Christians are taking heat for The Family from the likes of The Huffington Post and MSNBC. The irony is that The Family isn't promoting a Christian agenda, but a New Age agenda. See Constance Cumbey's five-part series The Family and its Hijacking of Evangelicalism.  As Jeff Sharlet asked, where is the outrage from influential evangelicals?Derek's book Destination: Earth, co-authored with Donna Howell and Allie Anderson, is available in paperback, Kindle, and as an audiobook at Audible!Our latest book The Gates of Hell is now available in paperback, Kindle, and as an audiobook at Audible! Get our free app! It features all of our weekly content—this podcast, our weekly Bible study, the Gilbert House Fellowship, and our weekly program Unraveling Revelation. It's free and available for iOS, Android, Amazon Kindle Fire tablets, and for Roku and Apple TV. Find the link here: www.GilbertHouse.org/app/.Thank you for making our Build Barn Better project a reality! We truly appreciate your support. Thank you for making it possible! If you are so led, you can help out by clicking here.Please join Derek and Sharon Gilbert each Sunday for the Gilbert House Fellowship, our weekly Bible study podcast. Log on to www.GilbertHouse.org for more details.Discuss these topics at the VFTB Facebook page and check out the great podcasters at the Fringe Radio Network!

Send us Fan MailSeason 17 of TGTPTU calls a wrap on its third of four directors in its 4x4 this week with Ron Howard's THE DA VINCI CODE (2006).   Starring Tom Hanks, father of musician and male model Chet Hanks but also known for leading roles in such earlier Howard films not covered on this podcast as Splash (1984) and Apollo 13 (1995), with a grotesque haircut as supersleuth symbiologist Robert Langdon from Dan Brown's 2003 best-selling page-turner of the same name, the movie is a bunch of nonsense that got some Catholics upset for suggesting Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the disputed son of a disputed desert deity, had children, likely through consensual intercourse unlike the legend of his siring. Howard's The Da Vinci Code also has great French actors used poorly in this flick mostly set in France and at least one Jellicle cat, one Sony Spiderman villain, and one Avenger (MCU, not BBC) actor of British lineage to help out the American Langdon in his quest for an ultimate truth that could rock the world to its core assuming it's not flat (see Revelation 7:1 and Isaiah 11:12, ya heathens).   Holy host Ryan goes above and beyond in his research for this ep; the son Jack passes the season's assignment; the father Ken is unimpressed by the chase scenes; and Doubting Thomas in real time processes that the female lead is the same actress as the titular Amélie (2001).  If you like anagrams and unstimulating action sequences, this might be the movie for you.    Skcus eivom siht.   P.S. You know that I am Opus Dei.  THEME SONG BY: WEIRD A.I.Email: thegoodthepodandtheugly@gmail.comFacebook: https://m.facebook.com/TGTPTUInstagram: https://instagram.com/thegoodthepodandtheugly?igshid=um92md09kjg0Bluesky: @goodpodugly.bsky.socialYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6mI2plrgJu-TB95bbJCW-gLetterboxd (follow us!):Podcast: goodpoduglyKen: Ken KoralRyan: Ryan Tobias

In this spoiler‑filled episode of No Limits: The Thriller Podcast, Jack Carr breaks down his explosive new thriller, The Fourth Option. We go deep on plot twists, character secrets, and the real‑life inspiration that fuels the story—no punches pulled. If you've read it (or don't mind spoilers), this is the definitive behind‑the‑scenes interview with Jack Carr on The Fourth Option. —

Dan Brown is the kind of person who will walk into your organization, look at your product, and immediately see the structural problems nobody else will name — because he's been doing exactly that for enterprise teams for over two decades. After 18 years co-founding 8Shapes, he now runs Curious Squid Design Lab, where he focuses on product information architecture and the deep craft work that most teams are too rushed to do.In this episode of The UX Level-Up Podcast, Sophia and Dan get into a tension that's been building for years — information architects and product designers are working in the same problem space and barely talking to each other, and AI is about to make that very, very expensive. They talk about what actually goes wrong on teams that skip the structural work, why the frenzy to use AI tools is adding pressure instead of removing it, and what Dan said at a recent workshop that made Sophia write it down on the spot.LINKS:Dan's newsletter, Spilling Ink: https://curioussquid.substack.com/The Unchecked Podcast: https://unchecked.buzzsprout.com/Connect with Dan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danmbrown/Find out more about Dan: https://www.curious-squid.comContinue the conversation in the OOUX Forum: https://forum.ooux.com/posts/dan-brown-product-ia-with-ai-as-the-ultimate-level-upConnect with Sophia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophiav/Follow Sophia on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sophiavux/Check out the OOUX Website: https://ooux.comFollow Sophia on Medium: https://sophiavux.medium.comInterested in training your team on OOUX? Book a call here: https://calendly.com/ooux/opportunityGet on the Cohort 12 waitlist: https://ooux.com/certification

On the latest Whisper in the Wings from Stage Whisper, we welcomed back on the playwright/director Dan Brown and the actress Tiffan Borelli, to talk about their new show The Needless Burden of Conscience. This incredible new work was so fantastic to learn and chat all about, so be sure that you hit play and get your tickets today!The Needless Burden of ConscienceJune 4th-7th@ Theater for the New CityTickets and more information are available at tnboc.eventbrite.com And be sure to follow our guests to stay up to date on all their upcoming projects and productions: @tiffanborellitnboc.eventbrite.com@dan_brown_rockaway

It's Wayback Wednesday, with another interview drawn from our archive of programs dating back to June, 2009. This week, it's a discussion from 2009 about an ostensibly Christian group that wields an inordinate amount of power behind the scenes in Washington, D. C., The Family. Originally released September 20, 2009 A SECRETIVE religious group that wields power in Washington, D.C. and other world capitals — sounds like the basis for Dan Brown's next novel, but it's real. Jeff Sharlet, author of The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, has been following this group for years, even living at The Family's headquarters for a time. What he found is a group that justifies its pursuit of political power by claiming that it's for the kingdom of God. Read Jeff's original expose of The Family, “Jesus Plus Nothing,” at Harper's Magazine online. Christians are taking heat for The Family from the likes of The Huffington Post and MSNBC. The irony is that The Family isn't promoting a Christian agenda, but a New Age agenda. See Constance Cumbey's five-part series The Family and its Hijacking of Evangelicalism. As Jeff Sharlet asked, where is the outrage from influential evangelicals? Follow us! X: @viewfrombunker | @sharonkgilbert | @derekgilbertTelegram: t.me/gilberthouseSubstack: gilberthouse.substack.com | SharonKGilbert.substack.comYouTube: @GilbertHouse | @UnravelingRevelationFacebook.com/viewfromthebunker Thank you for making our Build Barn Better project a reality! The building has HVAC, a new floor, windows, insulation, ceiling fans, and an upgraded electrical system! We truly appreciate your support. If you are so led, you can help out at www.GilbertHouse.org/donate. Download our free app! This brings all of our content directly to your smartphone or tablet. Best of all, we'll never get canceled from our own app! Links to the app stores for iOS, iPadOS, Android, and Amazon Kindle Fire devices are at www.GilbertHouse.org/app. Please join us each Sunday for the Gilbert House Fellowship, our weekly Bible study podcast. Log on to www.GilbertHouse.org for more details. JOIN US IN ISRAEL! We will tour the Holy Land October 11–23, 2026 with an optional three-day extension to Jordan. For more information, log on to GilbertHouse.org/travel. Special offers on our books and DVDs: www.gilberthouse.org/store. Discuss these topics at the VFTB Facebook page (facebook.com/viewfromthebunker) and check out the great podcasters at the Fringe Radio Network (Spreaker.com/show/fringe-radio-network)!

In this spoiler book review, we break down Mark Greaney's The Chaos Agent — the Gray Man thriller with a mind-bending AI plot that's got fans talking. Court Gentry faces his most dangerous enemy yet: AI gone rogue. We discuss twists you won't see coming, the shocking ending, character development, action sequences, and whether this is the best AI thriller out there. Subscribe for more thriller book reviews! —

I loved my conversation with Nicholas Teeguarden about his Masa Chronicles, and I loved the story. Listen in and see why. note: links may be affiliate links that provide me with a small commission at no extra expense to you. For those of you looking for action over romance, you get it in this book! There IS a light romance, yes, but it's strongly secondary to the main plot. Note: I read the book and LOVED this story. I really loved the story, actually. I listened to the audio, though, and since I was so excited about the audiobook, I thought I should mention that I didn't enjoy the audio experience. My biggest complaint is the pronunciation of so many things.  Story great. Others might not have trouble, but I needed to be honest about that since I was so excited to see it. The Copper Scroll  by Nicholas Teeguarden Book of the Year Finalist A lost scroll. A deadly secret. A race across the Middle East—where every clue could be fatal. When grad student and Army veteran Joshua Bennett uncovers a cryptic Dead Sea artifact, he's thrust into a world of coded messages, ruthless rivals, and ancient conspiracies. Every answer leads to new danger—and every ally could be an enemy. Perfect for fans of Dan Brown, Steve Berry, and Indiana Jones—this is a clean, high-octane archaeological thriller you won't want to put down. Learn more on Nicholas's WEBSITE and follow on GoodReads and BookBub. Like to listen on the go? You can find Because Fiction Podcast at: Apple Castbox Google Play Libsyn RSS Spotify Amazon and more!

In this spoiler-filled review of Mark Greaney's Gunmetal Gray, we break down the biggest twists, brutal action, and the wild moment that made us say, “The Gray Man did WHAT!?” If you're into spy thrillers, Mark Greaney, or The Gray Man books, this episode is for you. —

Hold the HECK on... are we enjoying the PGA Champs? This isn't traditionally everyone's favourite major but we think this packed field is making for some SPICY viewing. On today's podcast we cross off all the bossmen, discuss Bryson not making the cut, Dan Brown just about holding on, Maverick Mcnealy being a billionaire and so much more. We also have the JOY of handing over to Ben from Today's Golfer on the ground at Aronimink. - New episodes EVERY Monday & Thursday, with guest lead Talk Birdie To Me's every other Friday ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - thetoms@golfisruiningmylife.co.uk ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Discord ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tik Tok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Youtube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Merch⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tour⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGOLF Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Robert Langdon is back in action and this time he has to solve... wait. what does he do in this book exactly? This week we read The Secret of Secrets by Dan Brown with return guest Johnathan Fernandez!Mean Book Club is four ladies (UCB, BuzzFeed, College Humor, Impractical Jokers) who read, discuss and whine about NYT bestselling books that have questionable literary merit. It's fun. It's cathartic. It's perfect for your commute. New podcast (almost) every Tuesday! Here's the Season 21 reading list:Rose in Chains by Julie SotoHeated Rivalry by Rachel ReidNinth House by Leigh BardugoPowerless by Lauren RobertsThe Secret of Secrets by Dan BwonRemarkably Bright Creatures by Shelby Van PeltSometimes I Lie by Alice FeeneyQuicksilver by Callie HartSend any future book suggestions to meanbookclub@gmail.com! Follow us on the socials @meanbookclub!Rate, like, subscribe, and check out our Patreon page at patreon.com/meanbookclub to become a true patron of the mean arts.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/mean-book-club--3199521/support.

Is James Reece being replaced? We sit down with #1 NYT Bestselling author Jack Carr for an exclusive, no-spoiler look at his new book, The Fourth Option. We discuss the transition from James Reece and The Terminal List to new protagonist Chris Walker and what fans can expect when the book releases on May 12th. —

We once again travel back to the dark heart of the Bush era by discussing one of the biggest cultural events of the 2000s. Ron Howard's THE DA VINCI CODE (2006) adapted Dan Brown's turgid bestseller into an even more turgid blockbuster. Join us on Patreon for an extra episode every week - https://www.patreon.com/michaelandus

During a 1990 visit to Mexico, Pope John Paul II confirmed the long-standing liturgical cult in honor of Juan Diego, officially beatifying him. This act set in motion the process of canonizing Juan Diego as the first saint Indigenous to the Americas. The Juan Diego Faithful were, of course, elated at the prospect. They only had to deal with one tiny problem: Juan Diego never existed.In this episode we delve into the myth of Juan Diego, and examine efforts made by the church to prove that this fictional character actually existed. Plus, we end the episode with some Dan Brown-inspired fiction by Kurly!listener comments? Feedback? Shoot us a text!Support the showOrder "NEVER WILL IT BE LOST" and get $5 off!Support Lignum: A Cultural Haven in MéridaYour Hosts:Kurly Tlapoyawa is an archaeologist, ethnohistorian, and filmmaker. His research covers Mesoamerica, the American Southwest, and the historical connections between the two regions. He is the author of numerous books and has presented lectures at the University of New Mexico, Harvard University, Yale University, San Diego State University, and numerous others. He most recently released his documentary short film "Guardians of the Purple Kingdom," and is a cultural consultant for Nickelodeon Animation Studios.@kurlytlapoyawaRuben Arellano Tlakatekatl is a scholar, activist, and professor of history. His research explores Chicana/Chicano indigeneity, Mexican indigenist nationalism, and Coahuiltecan identity resurgence. Other areas of research include Aztlan (US Southwest), Anawak (Mesoamerica), and Native North America. He has presented and published widely on these topics and has taught courses at various institutions. He currently teaches history at Dallas College – Mountain View Campus. Find us: Bluesky...

Join hosts J.D. Barker, Christine Daigle, Jena Brown, J.P. Rindfleisch, and Kevin Tumlinson as they discuss the week's entertainment news, including stories about Audible, querying writers, and Dan Brown. Then, stick around for a chat with Evelyn Clarke (V.E. Schwab and Cat Clarke)! V. E .Schwab was born in California, raised in Tennessee, and currently splits her time between Denver, Colorado and Edinburgh, Scotland. She got her undergraduate degree in book design at Washington University in St. Louis, and her masters in depictions of monstrosity in medieval art at the University of Edinburgh. In addition to writing books and hosting a podcast called No Write Way, she spends her time on tour, or plagued by the knowledge of how short life is, in terms of the number of books she'll be able to read, and obsessively saving tiktok videos for recipes she'll probably never make. She also likes to run, and cycle, and swim—though not all at once.  V.E. is the author of more than 25 books, spanning MG, YA, and Adult, though she's never been keen on labeling stories for a certain audience. Plenty of young readers like Vicious, and plenty of older ones like Cassidy Blake, and she believes the best story is the one that finds you when you need it.  Her greatest goal as an author is to make you doubt your reality. Not by convincing you that magic is real, but by planting a seed of doubt that it's not.  Cat Clarke was born in Zambia and brought up in Edinburgh and Yorkshire, which has given her an accent that tends to confuse people. Cat has written non-fiction books about exciting things like cowboys, sharks and pirates, and now writes YA novels. She lives in Edinburgh with a couple of cats, Jem and Scout, who spend their days plotting to spit up furballs at the most inconvenient times. She likes cheese A LOT, especially baked camembert. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Today we bring you a story from our sister podcast Outside/In, produced and reported by Marina Henke. In 2009, the state of Maine ordered farmer Dan Brown to stop selling his raw milk. It kicked off a five-year legal battle that stoked the flames of Maine's dairy wars. But, after Farmer Brown lost his case and hung up his milking hat, things quieted down.  Twenty years later, raw milk has surged back into the zeitgeist. Influencers are saying it tastes like ice cream, RFK Jr. is taking shots of it at the White House, and Gwyneth Paltrow is putting it in her coffee. All of which makes for a pretty obvious question… What's the appeal? Is raw milk some kind of superfood? Or something to avoid at all costs?  Featuring Dan Brown, Andy Bisson, Danny Bisson, Nicole Martin, Pamela Ruegg, and Mary McGonigle-Martin. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Holy Grail is the most sought-after object in human history. The legend goes that the grail could bring whoever finds it unbelievable power, influence, youth and even eternal life. Which is why the hunters have included everyone from the knights of King Arthur to full-blown Nazis, hunting for a secret weapon to win them the war.We trace the whole story back to the Last Supper, via the Crusades, Heinrich Himmler, Dan Brown and Indiana Jones.--Patreon - Ad-free & Bonus EpisodesYouTube - Full-length Video EpisodesTikTok / Instagram

Vinny talks about the Dan Brown book he is reading and the brain is discussed.

In recent years, credit union business lending and the number of credit unions that exceed the statutory cap on member business lending have shot up sharply. What risks do these trends pose to safety and soundness and financial stability? On the latest episode of the ABA Banking Journal Podcast, ABA's Dan Brown and John Vermillion discuss their recent research on the subject. Not only does outsized credit union commercial activity steers these not-for-profit cooperatives away from their statutory mission, it also increases their exposure to an asset class where they — and their regulator — have traditionally lacked experience and expertise.

Sarah doesn't want to talk about the Mormon Wives anymore. A new dating show is making people walk the plank. Shia LaBeouf is still raging through New Orleans. His ex is reportedly fighting her NDA. Savannah Guthrie is terrified that she might be the reason her mother was kidnapped. The HBO Harry Potter remake has its official trailer and a 2026 release date. Sarah and Vinnie are chatting about Dan Brown and the future of AI and humans living together.

Hour 1: Everything about Opening Day was great! Except the actual game. Shaq DMed Sabrina Carpenter… yeah right. If you liked yesterday you're gonna love today. Is Barbie a drug mule? Are bacon bits a luxury on the moon? Stop and smell the flowers - I MEAN IT! Hour 2: Sarah doesn't want to talk about the Mormon Wives anymore. A new dating show is making people walk the plank. Shia LaBeouf is still raging through New Orleans. His ex is reportedly fighting her NDA. Savannah Guthrie is terrified that she might be the reason her mother was kidnapped. The HBO Harry Potter remake has its official trailer and a 2026 release date. Sarah and Vinnie are chatting about Dan Brown and the future of AI and humans living together. Hour 3: A famous Hollywood house is on Airbnb! Speaking of Hannah Montana, Miley Cyrus teased a new song at the Hannah Montana anniversary, and it drops this Friday! Stephen Colbert is writing a Lord of the Rings movie! There's a documentary about what Artificial Intelligence will bring us in the future. Sarah is jazzed and horrified. Let's eat the headlines: Britney Spears went to Starbucks, Taylor Frankie Paul is under investigation for a 3rd domestic violence incident, but she received her full Bachelorette salary, the new Spider-Man trailer is now the most watched trailer of all time, and Celine Dion is back on stage! Let's talk about pancakes. You can now use an old payphone in Boston to call a boomer in Reno. There's a similar phone in San Francisco with a less wholesome take. Are young adults skipping engagement rings? Hour 4: Sublime has a new single featuring Bradley Nowell's son. The security guard involved in the Chappell Roan incident speaks out. Sarah isn't buying his statement. If you're coming into the city this weekend, be aware of the No Kings protests. Take care of your butt, and your butt will take care of you. Bob suggests yoga (no surprise). Pepsi might be cancelling your favorite salty snack. Happy birthday, Fred! How Old Is That Guy?

In 2009, the state of Maine ordered farmer Dan Brown to stop selling his raw milk. It kicked off a five-year legal battle that stoked the flames of Maine's dairy wars. But, after Farmer Brown lost his case and hung up his milking hat, things quieted down.  Twenty years later, raw milk has surged back into the zeitgeist. Influencers are saying it tastes like ice cream, RFK Jr. is taking shots of it at the White House, and Gwyneth Paltrow is putting it in her coffee. All of which makes for a pretty obvious question… What's the appeal? Is raw milk some kind of superfood? Or something to avoid at all costs?  Featuring Dan Brown, Andy Bisson, Danny Bisson, Nicole Martin, Pamela Ruegg, and Mary McGonigle-Martin. SUPPORT To share your questions and feedback with Outside/In, call the show's hotline and leave us a voicemail. The number is 1-844-GO-OTTER. No question is too serious or too silly. Outside/In is made possible with listener support. Click here to become a sustaining member of Outside/In.  Follow Outside/In on Instagram and BlueSky, or join our private discussion group on Facebook. LINKS For a comprehensive history of dairy check out Milk! A 10,000 Year History by Mark Kurlansky. During the height of Dan Brown's case he gave a speech to a rousing crowd in Blue Hill. You can watch that here.  The debate over raw vs. pasteurized milk has been happening for a long time. The Milk Question by Milton Joseph Rosenau is a fascinating (we daresay, poetic) read.  The Pasteurized Milk Ordinance is a nearly 500-page document that outlines the intricacies of milk regulation in the U.S. Here's its most current version.  The FDA fact-checks many different raw milk claims ⁠on this page⁠, including pasteurization's affect on vitamin content and potential probiotic benefit. CREDITS  Produced by Marina Henke. For full credits and transcript, visit outsideinradio.org Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Master and Pupil discuss $0.29 refills, insane vintage scores, cooking al fresco and how Dan Brown is the Tone Loc of paperback.

How can trauma become a catalyst for creative transformation? What lessons can indie authors learn from the music industry's turbulent journey through technological disruption? With Jack Williamson. In the intro, Why recipes for publishing success don't work and what to do instead [Self-Publishing with ALLi Podcast]; Why your book isn't selling: metadata [Novel Marketing Podcast]; Creating a successful author business [Fantasy Writers Toolshed Podcast]; Bones of the Deep – J.F. Penn. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Jack Williamson is a psychotherapist, coach, and bestselling author who spent nearly two decades as a music industry executive. He's the founder of Music & You, his latest nonfiction book is Maybe You're The Problem, and he also writes romance under A.B. Jackson. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Finding post-traumatic growth and meaning after bereavement, and using tragedy as a catalyst for creative transformation Why your superpower can also be your Achilles heel, and how indie authors can overcome shiny object syndrome Three key lessons from the music industry: embracing change, thinking creatively about marketing, and managing pressure for better creativity The A, B, C technique for PR interviews and why marketing is storytelling through different mediums How to deal with judgment and shame around AI in the author community by understanding where people sit on the opinion-belief-conviction continuum Three AI developments coming from music to publishing: training clauses in contracts, one-click genre adaptation, and licensed AI-generated video adaptations You can find Jack at JackWilliamson.co.uk and his fiction work at ABJackson.com. Transcript of the interview with Jack Williamson Jo: Jack Williamson is a psychotherapist, coach, and bestselling author who spent nearly two decades as a music industry executive. He's the founder of Music & You, his latest nonfiction book is Maybe You're The Problem, and he also writes romance under A.B. Jackson. Welcome to the show. Jack: Thank you so much for having me, Jo. It's a real honour to be on your podcast after listening all of these years. Jo: I'm excited to talk to you. We have a lot to get into, but first up— Tell us a bit more about you and why get into writing books after years of working in music. Jack: I began my career at the turn of the millennium, basically, and I worked for George Michael and Mariah Carey's publicist, which I'm sure you can imagine was quite the introduction to the corporate world. From there I went on to do domestic and international marketing for a load of massive artists at Universal, so the equivalent of the top five publishers in the publishing world that we all work in. Then from there I had a bit of a challenge. In December 2015, I lost my brother, unfortunately to suicide. For any listener or any person that's gone through a traumatic event, it can really make you reassess everything, make you question life, make you question your purpose. When I went through that, I was thinking, well, what do I want to do? What do I want out of life? So I went on this journey for practically the next ten years. I retrained to be a psychotherapist. I created a bucket list—a list of all the things that I thought maybe my brother would've wanted to do but didn't do. One of the things was scatter his ashes at the Seven Wonders of the world. Then one of the items on my bucket list was to write a book. The pandemic hit. It was a challenge for all of us, as you've spoken about so much on this wonderful podcast. I thought, well, why not? Why not write this book that I've wanted to write? I didn't know when I was going to do it because I was always so busy, and then the pandemic happened and so I wrote a book. From there, listening to your wonderful podcast, I've learned so much and been to so many conferences and learned along the way. So now I've written five books and released three. Jo: That's fantastic. I mean, regular listeners to the show know that I talk about death and grief and all of this kind of thing, and it's interesting that you took your brother's ashes to the Seven Wonders of the world. Death can obviously be a very bad, negative thing for those left behind, but it seems like you were able to reframe your brother's experience and turn that into something more positive for your life rather than spiralling into something bad. So if people listening are feeling like something happens, whether it's that or other things— How can we reframe these seemingly life-ending situations in a more positive way? Jack: It is very hard and there's no one way to do it. I think as you always say, I never want to tell people what to do or what to think. I want to show them how to think and how they can approach things differently or from a different perspective. I can only speak from my journey, but we call it in therapeutic language, post-traumatic growth. It is, how do you define it so it doesn't define you? Because often when you have a bereavement of a loved one, a family member, it can be very traumatic, but how can you take meaning and find meaning in it? There's a beautiful book called Man's Search for Meaning, and the name of the author escapes me right now, but he says— Jo: Viktor Frankl. Jack: Yes. Everyone quotes it as one of their favourite books, and one of my favourite lines is, “Man can take everything away from you, apart from the ability to choose one thought over the other.” I think it's so true because we can make that choice to choose what to think. So in those moments when we are feeling bad, when we're feeling down, we want to honour our feelings, but we don't necessarily want to become them. We want to process that, work through, get the support system that we need. But again, try to find meaning, try to find purpose, try to understand what is going on, and then pay it forward. Irrespective of your belief system, we all yearn for purpose. We all yearn for being connected to something bigger than ourselves. If we can find that through bereavement maybe, or through a traumatic incident, then hopefully we can come through the other side and have that post-traumatic growth. Jo: I love that phrase, post-traumatic growth. That's so good. Obviously people think about post-traumatic anything as like PTSD—people immediately think a sort of stress disorder, like it's something that makes things even worse. I like that you reframed it in that way. Obviously I think the other thing is you took specific action. You didn't just think about it. You travelled, you retrained, you wrote books. So I think also it's not just thinking. In fact, thinking about things can sometimes make it worse if you think for too long, whereas taking an action I think can be very strong as well. Jack: Ultimately we are human beings as opposed to human doings, but actually being a human doing from time to time can be really helpful. Actually taking steps forward, doing things differently, using it as a platform to move forward and to do things that maybe you didn't before. When you are confronted with death, it can actually make you question your own mortality and actually question, am I just coasting along? Am I stuck in a rut? Could I be doing something differently? One of the things that bereavement, does is it holds a mirror up to ourselves and it makes us question, well, what do we want from our life? Are we here to procreate? Are we here to make a difference? Some of us can't procreate, or some of us choose not to procreate, but we can all make a difference. And it's, how do we do that? Where do we do that? When do we do that? Jo: That's interesting. I was thinking today about service and gratitude. I'm doing this Master's and I was reading some theology stuff today, and service and gratitude, I think if you are within a religious tradition, are a normal part of that kind of religious life. Whether it's service to God and gratitude to God, or service and gratitude to others. I was thinking that these two things, service and gratitude, can actually really help reframe things as well. Who can we serve? As authors, we're serving our readers and our community. What can we be grateful about? That's often our readers and our community as well. So I don't know, that helped me today—thinking about how we can reframe things, especially in the world we're in now where there's a lot of anger and grief and all kinds of things. Jack: That's what we've got to look at. We are here to serve. Again, that can take different shapes, different forms. Some of us work in the service industry. I provide a service as a psychotherapist, you serve your listeners with knowledge and information that you gather and dispense through the research you do or the guests you have on. We serve readers of the different genres that we write in. It's what ways can we serve, how can we serve? Again, I think we all, if we can and when we can, should pay it forward. Someone said this to me once in the music industry: be careful who you meet on the way up and how you treat them on the way up, because invariably you'll meet them on the way down. So if you can pay forward that kindness, if you can be kind, considerate, and treat people how you want to be treated, that is going to pay dividends in the long run. It may not come off straight away, but invariably it will come back to you in some way, shape, or form in a different way. Jo: I've often talked about social karma and karma in the Hindu sense—the things that you do come back to you in some other form. Possibly in another life, which I don't believe. In terms of, I guess, you didn't know what was going to happen to your brother, and so you make the most of the life that we have at the moment because things change and you just don't know how things are going to change. You talk about this in your book, Maybe You're The Problem, which is quite a confronting title. So just talk about your book, Maybe You're The Problem, and why you wrote that. Put it into context with the author community and why that might be useful. Jack: Thank you for flagging my book. I intentionally crossed out “maybe” on the merchandise I did as well, because in essence, we are our own problem. We can get in the way, and it's what happened to us when we grew up wasn't our fault, but what we do with it is our responsibility. We may have grown up in a certain period or a climate. We didn't necessarily choose to do that, but what we do with that as a result is up to us. So we can stay in our victimhood and we can blame our parents, or we can blame the generation we are in, or we can blame the city, the location—however, that is relinquishing your power. That is staying in a victim mindset rather than a survivor or a thriver mindset. So it's about how can we look at the different areas in our life. Whether that is conflict, whether that is imposter syndrome, whether that is the generation we're born into. We try to understand how that has shaped us and how we may be getting in our own way to stop us from growing, to stop us from expanding, and to see where our blind spots are, our limitations are, and how that may impact us. There's so much going on in the moment in the world, whether that is in the digital realm, whether that is in the geo-climate that we're in at the moment. Again, that's going to bring up a lot for us. How can we find solutions to those problems for us so that we continue to move forward rather than be restricted and hindered by them? Jo: Alright. Well let's get into some more specifics. You have been in the author community now for a while. You go to conferences and you are in the podcast community and all this kind of thing. What specific issues have you seen in the author community? Maybe around some of the things you've mentioned, or other things? How might we be able to deal with those? Jack: With authors, I think it is such a wonderful and unique industry that I have an honour and privilege of being a part of now. One of the main things I've learned is just how creative people are. Coming from a creative industry like the music industry, there is a lot of neurodivergence in the creative industries and in the author community. Whether that is autism, whether that is ADHD—that is a real asset to have as a superpower, but it can be an Achilles heel. So it's understanding—and I know that there is an overexposure of people labelling themselves as ADHD—but on the flip side to that, it's how can we look at what's going on for us? For ADHD, for example, there's a thing called shiny object syndrome. You've talked about this in the past, Joanna, where it's like a new thing comes along, be it TikTok, be it Substack, be it bespoke books, be it Shopify, et cetera. We can rush and quickly be like, “oh, let me do this, let me do that,” before we actually take the time to realise, is this right for me? Does this fit my author business? Does this fit where I'm at in my author journey? I think sometimes as authors, we need to not cave in to that shiny object syndrome and take a step back and think to ourselves, how does this serve me? How does this serve my career? How does this work for me if I'm looking at this as a career? If you're looking at it as a hobby, obviously it's a different lens to look through, but that's something that I would often make sure that we look at. One of the other things that really comes up is that in order for any of us to address our fears and anxieties, we need to make sure that we feel psychologically safe and to put ourselves in spaces and places where we feel seen, heard, and understood, which can help address some of the issues that I've just mentioned. Being in that emotionally regulated state when we are with someone we know and trust—so taking someone to a conference, taking someone to a space or a place where you feel that you can be seen, heard, and understood—can help us and allow us to embrace things that we perceive to be scary. That may be finding an author group, finding an online space where you can actually air and share your thoughts, your feelings, where you don't feel that you are being judged. Often it can be quite a judgmental space and place in the online world. So it's just finding your tribe and finding places where you can actually lean into that. So there'd be two things. Jo: I like the idea of the superpower and the Achilles heel because I also feel this when we are writing fiction. Our characters have strengths, but your fatal flaw is often related to your strength. Jack: Yes. Jo: For example, I know I am independent. One of the reasons I'm an independent author is because I'm super independent. But one of my greatest fears is being dependent. So I do lots of things to avoid being dependent on other people, which can lead me to almost damage myself by not asking for help or by trying to make sure that I control everything so I never have to ask anyone else to do something. I'm coming to terms with this as I get older. I feel like this is something we start to hit—I mean, as a woman after menopause—is this feeling of I might have to be dependent on people when I'm older. It's so interesting thinking about this and thinking— My independence is my strength. How can it also be my weakness? So what do you think about that? You're going to psychotherapist me now. Jack: I definitely won't, but it's interesting. Just talking about that, we all have wounds and we all have the shadow, as you've even written about in one of your books. And it's how that can come from a childhood wound where it's like we seek help and it's not given to us. So we create a belief system where I have to do everything myself because no one will help me. Or we may have rejection sensitivity, so we reject ourselves before others can reject us. So it's actually about trying, where we can, to honour our truths, honour that we may want to be independent, for example, but then realising that success leaves clues. I always say that if you are independent—and I definitely align a hundred percent with you, Joanna—I've had to work really hard myself in personal therapy and in business and life to realise that no human is an island and we can't all do this on our own. Yes, it's amazing with the AI agents now that can help us in a business capacity, but having those relationships that we can tap into—like you mentioned all of the people that you tap into—it's so important to have those. I always say that it's important to have three mentors: one person that's ahead of you (for me, that would be Katie Cross because she's someone that I find is an amazing author and we speak at least once a month); people that are at the same level as you that you can go on the journey together with (and I have an author group for that); and then someone that is perceived to be behind you or in a younger generation than you, because you can learn as much from them as they can learn from you. If you can actually tap into those people whilst honouring your independence, then it feels like you can still go on your own journey, but you can tap in and tap out as and when needed. Sacha Black will give you amazing insights, other people like Honor will give you amazing insights, but you can also provide that for them. So there's that safety of being able to do it on your own. But on the flip side, you still have those people that you can tap into as and when necessary as a sounding board, as information on how they were successful, and go from there. Jo: No, I like that. If you're new to the show, Sacha Black and Honor Raconteur have been on the show and they are indeed some of my best friends. So I appreciate that. I really like the idea of the three mentor idea. I just want to add to that because I do think people misunderstand the word mentor sometimes. You mentioned you speak to Katie Cross, but I've found that a lot of the mentors that I've had who are ahead of me have often been books. We mentioned the Viktor Frankl book, and if people don't know, he was Jewish and in the concentration camps and survived that. So it's a real survivor story. But to me, books have been mostly my mentors in terms of people who are ahead of me. We don't always need to speak to or be friends with our mentors. I think that's important too, right? Because I just get emails a lot that say, “Will you be my mentor?” And I don't think that's the point. Jack: Oh, I a hundred percent agree with you. If you don't have access to those mentors—like Oprah Winfrey is one of the people that I perceive as a mentor—I listen to podcasts, I read her books, I watch interviews. There is a way to absorb and acquire that information, and it doesn't have to be a direct relationship with them. It is someone that you can gain the knowledge and wisdom that they've imparted in whatever form you may consume it. Which is why I think it is important to have those three levels: that one that is above you that may be out of reach in terms of a human connection, but you can still access; then the people at the same level as you that you can have those relationships and grow with; and again, that one behind that you can help pave the way for them, but also learn from them as well. So a hundred percent agree that that mentor that you are looking for that may be ahead of you doesn't necessarily need to be someone that is in a real-world relationship. Jo: So let's just circle back to your music industry experience. You mentioned being on the sort of marketing team for some really big names in music, and I mean, it's kind of a sexy job really. It just sounds pretty cool, but of course the music industry has just as many challenges as publishing. What did you learn from working in the music industry that you think might be particularly useful for authors? Jack: The perception of reality was definitely a lot different. It does look sexy and glamorous, but the reality is similar to going to conferences. It's pretty much flight, hotel, and dark rooms with terrible air conditioning that you spend a lot of time in. So sorry to burst the illusion. But I mean, it does have its moments as well. There is so much I've learned over the years and there's probably three things that stand out the most. The first one was I entered the industry right at the height of the music industry. In 2000, 2001. That was when Napster really exploded and it decimated the music industry. It wiped half the value in the space of four years. Then the music industry was trying to shut it down, throwing legal, throwing everything at it, but it was like whack-a-mole. As soon as one went down such as Napster, ten others popped up like Kazaa. So you saw that the old guard wasn't willing to embrace change. They weren't willing to adapt. They assumed that people wanted the formats of CDs, vinyls, cassettes, and they were wrong. Yes, people wanted music, but they actually wanted the music. They didn't care about the format, they just wanted the access. So that was one of the really interesting things that I learned, because I was like, you have to embrace change. You can't ignore it. You can't push it away, push it aside, because it's coming whether you like it or not. I think thankfully the music industry has learned as AI's coming, because now you have to embrace it. There's a lot of legal issues that have been going on at the moment with rights, which you've covered about the Anthropic case and so on. It's such a challenge, and I just think that's the first one. The second one I learned was back in 2018. There was an artist I worked on called Freya Ridings. At that time I was working at an independent record label rather than one of the big three major record labels. She had great songs and we were up against one of the biggest periods of the year and trying to make noise. At the time, Love Island was the biggest TV show on, and everyone wanted to be on it in terms of getting their music synced in the scenes. We were just like, we are never going to compete. So we thought, we need to be clever here. We need to think differently. What we did is we found out what island the show was being recorded on, and we geo-targeted our ads just to that island because we knew the sync team were going to be on there. So we just went hard as nails, advertised relentlessly, and we knew that the sync people would then see the adverts. As a result of that, Freya got the sync. It became the biggest song that season on Love Island, back when it was popular. As a result of that, we built from there. We were like, right, we can't compete with the majors. We have to think differently. We need to do things differently. We need to be creative. It wasn't an easy pathway. That year there were only two other songs that were independent that reached the top 10. So we ended up becoming a third and the biggest song that year. The reason I'm saying that is we can't compete with the major publishers. But the beauty of the independent author community is because we have smaller budgets—most of us, not all of us, but most of us—we have to think differently. We have to make our bang for our buck go a lot further. So it's actually— How can we stay creative? How can we think differently? What can we do differently? So that would be the second thing. Then the third main lesson that I learned, and this is more on the creative side, is that pressure can often work against you, both in a business sense, but especially creativity. I've seen so many artists over the years have imposed deadlines on them to hand in their albums, and it's impacted the quality of their output. Once it's handed in, the stress and the pressure is off, and then you realise that actually those artists end up creating the best material that they have, and then they rush to put it on. Whether that's Mariah Carey's “We Belong Together,” Adele with her song “Hello,” Taylor Swift did the same with “Shake It Off”—they're just three examples. The reason is that pressure keeps us in our beta brainwave state, which is our rational, logical mind. For those of us that are authors that are writing fiction, or even if we are creating stories in our nonfiction work to deliver a point, we need to be in that creative mindset. So we need to be in the alpha and the gamma brain state. Because our body works on 90-minute cycles known as our ultradian rhythm, we need to make sure that we honour our cycle and work with that. If we go past that, our creativity and our productivity is going to go down between 60% and 40% respectively. So as authors, it's important—one, to apply the right amount of pressure; two, to work in breaks; and three, to know what kind of perspective we're looking at. Do we need to be rational and logical, or do we need to be creative? And then adjust the sails accordingly. Jo: That's all fantastic. I want to come back on the marketing thing first—around what you did with the strategic marketing there and the targeted ads to that island. That's just genius. I feel like a lot of us, myself included, we struggle to think creatively about marketing because it's not our natural state. Of course, you've done a lot of marketing, so maybe it comes more naturally to you. I think half the time we don't even use the word creative around marketing, when you're not a marketeer. What are some ways that we can break through our blocks around marketing and try to be more creative around that? Jack: I would challenge a lot of authors on that presumption, because as authors we're in essence storytellers, and to tell a story is creative. There's a great quote: “One death is a tragedy. A thousand deaths is a statistic.” If you can create a story, a compelling narrative about a death in the news, it's going to pull at the heartstrings of people. It's going to really resonate and get with them. Whereas if you are just quoting statistics, most people switch off because they become desensitised to it. So I think because we can tell stories, and that's the essence of what we do, it's how can we tell our story through the medium of social media? How can we tell a story through our creative ads that we then put out onto Facebook or TikTok or whatever platform that we're putting them out—BookBub, et cetera? How can we create a narrative that garners the attention? If we are looking at local media or traditional media, how can we do that? How can we get people to buy in to what we're selling? So it's about having different angles. For me with my new romance book, Stolen Moments, one of the stories I had that really has helped me get some coverage and PR is we recorded the songs next door to the Rolling Stones. Now that was very fortunate timing, very fortunate. But everyone's like, “Oh my God, you recorded next door to the Rolling Stones?” So it's like, well, how can you bring in these creative nuggets that help you to find a story? Again, marketing is in essence telling a story, albeit through different mediums and forms. So it's just how can you package that into a marketable product depending on the platform in which you're putting it out on. Jo: I think that's actually hilarious, by the way, because what you hit on there, as someone with a background in marketing, your story about “we recorded an album for the book next door to the Rolling Stones”—it's got nothing to do with the romance. Jack: Oh, the romance is that the pop star in the book writes and records songs. Jo: Yes, I realised that. But the fact is— For doing things like PR, it's the story behind the story. They don't care that you've written a romance. Jack: Yes. Jo: They're far more interested in you, the author, and other things. So I think what you just described there was a kind of PR hook that most of us don't even think about. Jack: I'm sure a lot of authors already know this, so it's a good reminder, and if you don't, it's great. It's called the A, B, C technique. When you get asked a question, you Answer the question. So that's A. You Build a bridge, and then you go to C, which is Covering one of your points. So whenever you get asked a question, have a list of things you want to get across in an interview. Then just make sure that you find that bridge between whatever the question is to cover off one of your points, and that's how you can do it. Because yes, you may be selling a story, like I said, about writing the songs, but then you can bridge it into actually covering and promoting whatever it is you're promoting. So I think that's always quite helpful to remember. Jo: Well, that's a good tip for things like coming on podcasts as well. I've had people on who don't do what you just mentioned and will just try and shoehorn things in in a more deliberate fashion, whereas other people, as you have just done with your romance there, bring it in while answering a question that actually helps other people. So I think that's the kind of thing we need to think about in marketing. Okay, so then let's come back to the embracing change, and as you mentioned, the AI stuff that's going on. I feel like there's so many “stories” around AI right now. There's a lot of stories being told on both sides—on the positive side, on the negative side—that people believe and buy into and may or may not be true. There's obviously a lot of anger. There's, I think, grief—a big thing that people might not even realise that they have. Can you talk about how authors might deal with what's coming up around the technological change around AI, and any of your personal thoughts as well? Jack: I was thinking about this a lot recently. I mean, I guess everyone is in their own ways and forms. One of the things that came up for me is we have genre expectations and we have generation expectations. When we look at genres, you will have different expectations from different genres. For romance, they want a happily ever after or a happy for now. For cosy mysteries, they expect the crime to be solved. So we as authors make sure we endeavour to meet those expectations. The challenge is that if we are looking at AI, we are all in our own generations. We might be in slightly different generations, but there are going to be different generation expectations from the Alpha generation that's coming up and the Beta generation that's just about to start this year or next year because they're going to come into the world where they don't know any different to AI. So they will have a different expectation than us. It will just be normal that there will be AI agents. It will just be normal that there are AI narrators. It will be normalised that AI will assist authors or assist everyone in doing their jobs. So again, it is a grieving period because we can long for what was, we can yearn for things that worked for us that no longer work for us—whether it's Facebook groups, whether it's the Kindle Rush. We can mourn the loss of that, but that's not coming back. I mean, sometimes there may be a resurgence, but essentially, we've got to embrace the change. We've got to understand that it's coming and it's going to bring up a lot of different emotions because you may have been beholden to one thing and you may be like, yes, I've now got my TikTok lives, and then all of a sudden TikTok goes away. I know Adam, when he was talking about it, he'll just find another platform. But there'll be a lot of people that are beholden to it and then they're like, what do I do now? So again, it's never survival of the fittest—it's survival of the most adaptable. I always use this metaphor where there are three people on three different boats. A storm comes. And the first, the optimist, is like, “Oh, it'll pass,” and does nothing. The pessimist complains about the storm and does nothing. But the realist will adjust the sails and use the storm to find its way to the other side, to get through. It's not going to be easy, but they're actually taking change and making change to get to where they need to go, rather than just expecting or complaining. I get it. We are not, and I hate the expression, “we're all in the same boat.” I call bleep on that. I'm not going to swear. We're not all in the same boat. We're all in the same storm, but different people are going through different things. For some, they can adjust and adapt really quickly like a speedboat. For others, they may be like Jack and Rose in the Titanic on that terrible prop where they're clinging to dear life and trying to get through the storm. So it's about how do I navigate this upcoming storm? What can I do within my control to get through the storm? For some it may be easier because they have the resources, or for some of us that love learning, it's easy to embrace change. For others that have a fear mindset and it's like, “Oh, something new, it's scary, I don't want to embrace it”—you are going to take longer. So you may not be the speedboat, but at some point we are going to have to embrace that change. Otherwise we're going to get left behind. So you need to look at that. Jo: The storm metaphor is interesting, and being in different boats. I feel I do struggle. I struggle with people who suddenly seem to be discovering the storm. I've been talking about AI now since 2016. That's a decade. Jack: Yes. Jo: Even ChatGPT has been around more than three years, and people come to me now and they're talking about stories that they've seen in the media that are just old now. Things have moved on so much. I feel like maybe I was on my boat and I looked through my telescope and I saw the storm. I've been talking about the storm and I've had my own moments of being in the middle of the storm. Now I definitely do struggle with people who just seem to have arrived without any knowledge of it before. I oscillate between being an optimist and a realist. I think I'm somewhere between the two, probably. But I think what is driving me a little crazy in the author community right now is judgment and shame. There are people who are judging other people, and there's shame felt by AI-curious or AI-positive people. So I want to help the people who feel shame in some way for trying new technology, but they still feel attacked. Then those people judge other authors for their choices to use technology. So how do you think we can deal with judgment and shame in the community? Which is a form of conflict, I guess. Jack: Of course. I think with that, there's another great PR quote: “If it bleeds, it leads.” Especially in this digital age, there's a lot of clickbait. So the more polarising, the more emotion-evoking the headline, the more likely you are to engage with that content—whether that is reading it or whether that's posting or retweeting, or whatever format you are consuming it on. So unfortunately, media has now become so much more polarising. It's dividing us rather than uniting us. So people are going to have stronger positions. There's so much even within this to look at. One is, you have to work out where people are on the continuum. Do they have an opinion on AI? Do they have a belief? Or do they have a conviction? Now you're not going to move someone that has a conviction about something, so it's not worth even engaging with them because they're immovable. Like they say, you shouldn't talk about sports, politics, and religion. There are certain subjects that may not be worth talking about, especially if they have a conviction. Because they may not even be able to agree to disagree. They may not be willing or able to hear you. So first and foremost, it's about understanding, well, where are those people sitting on the continuum of AI? Are they curious? Do they have an opinion, but they're open to hearing other opinions? Do they have a belief that could be changed or evolved if they find more information? That's where I think it is. It's not necessarily our jobs—even though you do an amazing job of it, Joanna—but a lot of people are undereducated on these issues or these new technologies. So in some cases it's just a case of a lack of education or them being undereducated. Hopefully in time they will become more and more educated. But again, it's how long is a piece of string? Will people catch up? Will they stay behind? Are they fearful? I guess because of social media, because of the media, as they say, if you can evoke fear in people, you can control them. You can control their perspectives. You can control their minds. So that's where we see it—a lot of people are operating from a fear mindset. So then that's when they project their vitriol in certain cases. If people want to believe a certain thing, that's their choice. I'm not here to tell people what to think. Like I said earlier, it's more about how to think. But I would just encourage people to find people that align with you. Do a sense test, like a litmus test, to find where they sit on the continuum and engage with those people that are open and have opinions or beliefs. But shy away or just avoid people that have convictions that maybe are the polar opposite of yours. Jo: It's funny, isn't it? We seem to be in a phase of history when I feel like you should be able to disagree with people and still be friends. Although, as you mentioned, there's certain members of my family where we just stay on topics of TV shows and movies or music, or what books are you reading? Like, we don't go anywhere near politics. So I do think that might be a rule also with the AI stuff. As you said, find a community, and there are plenty of AI-positive spaces now for people who do want to talk about this kind of stuff. I also think that, I don't know whether this is a tipping point this year, but certainly— I know people who are in bigger corporates where the message is now, “You need to embrace this stuff. It is now part of your job to learn how to use these AI tools.” So if that starts coming into people's day jobs, and also people who have, I don't know, kids at school or people at university who are embracing this more—I mean, maybe it is a generational thing. Jack: Yes. Look, there were so many people that were resistant to working from home, or corporations that were, and then the pandemic forced it. Now everyone's embraced it in some way, shape, or form. I mean, there are people that don't, but the majority of people—when something's forced on you, you have to adapt. So again, if those things are implemented in corporations, then you're going to see it. I'm seeing so many amazing new things in AI that have been implemented in the music industry that we'll see in the publishing industry coming down the road. That will scare a lot of people, but again, we have to embrace those things because they're coming and there's going to be an expectation—especially from the younger generations—that these things are available. So again, it's not first past the post, but if you can be ahead of the wave or at least on the wave, then you are going to reap the rewards. If you are behind the wave, you're going to get left behind. So that's my opinion. I'm not trying to encourage anyone to see from my lens, but at the same time, I do think that we need to be thinking differently. We need to always embrace change where we can, as we can, at the pace that we can. Jo: You mentioned there AI things coming down the road in the music industry. And now everyone's going, wait, what is coming? So tell us— What do you see ahead that you think might also shift into the author world? Jack: There are three things that I've seen. Two that have been implemented and one that's been talked about and worked on at the moment. The first, and this will be quite scary for people, is that major record labels—so think the major publishers on our side—they're all now putting clauses in their contracts that require the artists that sign with them to allow their works to be trained by their own AI models. So that is something that is now actually happening in record labels. I wouldn't be surprised, although I don't have insight into it, if Simon & Schuster, HarperCollins, et cetera, are potentially doing the same with authors that sign to them. So that's going to become more standardised. So that is on the major side. But then on the creative side, there are two things that really excite me. The music AI platforms that we're hearing about, the stories that we've seen in the press, and it's the fact that with a click of a button, you can recreate a song into a different genre. I find it so fascinating because if you think about that—turning a pop song into a country song or a rap song into a dance song—the possibilities that we have as authors with our books, if we wish to do so, are amazing. I just think, for example, with your ARKANE series, Joanna, imagine clicking a button and just with one click you can take Morgan Sierra and turn her into a romantic lead in a romance book. Jo: See, it's so funny because I personally just can't imagine that because it's not something I would write. But I guess one example in the romance genre itself is I know plenty of romance authors who write a clean and a spicy version of the same story, right? It is already happening in that way. It's just not a one-click. Jack: Well, I think you can also look at it another way. I think one of the most famous examples is Twilight. With Twilight and Stephenie Meyer, if she had the foresight—and I'm not saying she didn't, just to clarify—but fan fiction is such a massive sub-genre of works. And obviously from Twilight came 50 Shades of Gray. Imagine if she had the licensing rights like the NFTs, where she could have made money off of every sale. So that you could then, through works that you create and give licence, earn a percentage of every release, every sale, every consumption unit of your works. There are just so many possibilities where you can create, adapt, have spinoffs that can then build out your world. Obviously, there may need to be an approval process in there for continuity and quality control because you want to make sure you're doing that, but I think that has such massive potential in publishing if we wish to do so. Or like I said, change characters. Like Robert Langdon's character in Dan Brown's books—no longer being the kind of thriller, but maybe being a killer instead. There's so many possibilities. It's just, again, how to think, not what to think—how to think differently and how we can use that. So that's the second of three. Jo: Oh, before you move on, you did mention NFTs and I've actually been reading about this again. So I'm usually five years early. That's the general rule. I started talking about NFTs in mid-2021, and obviously there was a crypto crash, it goes up and down, blah, blah, blah. But forget the crypto side—on the blockchain side, digital originality, and exactly what you said about saying like, where did this originate? This is now coming back in the AI world. It could be that I really was five years early. So amusingly—and I'm going to link to it in the notes because I did a “Why NFTs Are Exciting for Authors” solo episode, I think in 2022—it may be that the resurgence will happen in the next year, and all those people who said I was completely wrong, that this may be coming back. Digital originality I think is what we're talking about there. But so, okay, so what was the other thing? Jack: So the third one is the one that I'm most excited about, but I think will be the most scary for people. Obviously consumption changes and formats change. Like I said, in music I've seen it all the time—whether it's vinyl to cassettes, to CDs, to downloads, to streaming. Again, there's different consumption of the same format, and we see that with books as well, obviously—hardbacks, paperbacks, eBooks, audiobooks. Now with the rise of AI, AI narration has made audiobooks so much more accessible for people. I know that there are issues with certain people not wanting to do it, or certain platforms not allowing AI narration to be uploaded unless it's their own. The next step is what I'm most excited about. What I'm seeing now in the music industry is people licensing their image to then recreate that as music videos because music videos are so expensive. One of my friends just shot a music video for two million pounds. I don't think many authors would ever wish to spend that. If you can license your image and use AI to create a three-minute music video that looks epic and just as real as humanly possible, imagine if those artists—or if we go a step further, those actors—license their image to then be used to adapt our books into a TV series or a film. So that then we are in a position where that is another format of consumption alongside an audiobook, a paperback, an eBook, hardcover, special edition, and so on and so forth. It potentially has the opportunity to open us up to a whole new world. Because yes, there are adaptations of books that we're seeing at the moment, but for those of us that are trying to get our content into different formats, this can be a new pathway. I'm going to make a prediction here myself, Joanna. Jo: Mm-hmm. Jack: I would say in the next five to ten years, there will be a platform akin to a Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney Plus, Apple Plus, where you can license the rights to an image of an actor or an actress. Then with the technology—and you may need people to help you adapt your book into a TV series or a film—that can then be consumed. I just think the possibilities are endless. I mean, again, I think of your character and I'm like, oh, what would it be if Angelina Jolie licensed her image and you could have her play the lead character in your ARKANE series? I mean, again, the possibilities potentially are endless here. Jo: Well, and on that, if people think this won't happen—1776, I don't know if you've seen this, it's just being teased at the moment. Darren Aronofsky has made an American revolutionary story all with AI. So this is being talked about at the moment. It's on YouTube at the moment. The AI video is just extraordinary already, so I totally agree with you. I think things are going to be quite weird for a while, and it will take a while to get used to. You mentioned coming into the music industry in 2000, 2001—I started my work before the internet, and then the internet came along and lots of things changed. I mean, anyone who's older than 40, 45-ish can remember what work was like without the internet. Now we are moving into a time where it'll be like, what was it like before AI? And I think we'll look back and go like, why the hell did we do that kind of thing? So it is a changing world, but yes, exciting times, right? I think the other thing that's happening right now, even to me, is that things are moving so fast. You can almost feel like a kind of whiplash with how much is changing. How do we deal with the fast pace of change while still trying to anchor ourselves in our writing practice and not going crazy? Jack: Again, it's that everything everywhere all at once—you can get lost and discombobulated. I always say be the tortoise, not the hare—because you don't want to fly and die. You want pace and grace. Everyone will have a different pace. For some marathon runners, they can run a five-minute mile, some can run an eight-minute mile, some can run a twelve-minute mile. It's about finding the pace that works for you. Every one of us have different commitments. Every one of us have different ways we view the industry—some as a hobby, some as a business. So it's about honouring your needs, your commitment. Some of us, as you've had people on the podcast, some people are carers. They have to care. Some people are parents. Some people don't have those commitments and so can devote more time and then actually learn more, change more as a result. So again, it's about finding your groove, finding your rhythm, honouring that, and again, showing up consistently. Because motivation may get you started, but it's habit and discipline that sees you through. Keep that discipline, keep that pace and grace. Be consistent in what you can do. And know where you're at. Don't compare and despair, because again, if you look at someone else, they may be ahead of you, but the race is only with yourself in the end. So you've got to just focus on where you are at and am I in a better place than I was yesterday? Am I working on my business as well as in my business? How am I doing that? When am I doing that? And what am I doing that for? If you can be asking yourself those questions and making sure you're staying true to yourself and not burning out, making sure that you are honouring your other commitments, then I think you are going at the pace that feels right for you. Jo: Brilliant. Jo: Where can people find you and your books and everything you do online? Jack: Thank you so much for having me on, Joanna, today. You can find me on JackWilliamson.co.uk for all my nonfiction books and therapy work. Then for my fiction work, it is ABJackson.com, or ABJacksonAuthor on Instagram and TikTok. Jo: Well, thanks so much for your time, Jack. That was great. Jack: Thank you so much. The post Post-Traumatic Growth, Creative Marketing, And Dealing With Change with Jack Williamson first appeared on The Creative Penn.