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Tyler and I spoke about view quakes from fiction, Proust, Bleak House, the uses of fiction for economists, the problems with historical fiction, about about drama in interviews, which classics are less read, why Jane Austen is so interesting today, Patrick Collison, Lord of the Rings… but mostly we talked about Shakespeare. We talked about Shakespeare as a thinker, how Romeo doesn't love Juliet, Girard, the development of individualism, the importance and interest of the seventeenth century, Trump and Shakespeare's fools, why Julius Cesar is over rated, the most under rated Shakespeare play, prejudice in The Merchant of Venice, Shakespeare as an economic thinker. We covered a lot of ground and it was interesting for me throughout. Here are some excerpts. Full transcript below.Henry Some of the people around Trump now, they're trying to do DOGE and deregulation and other things. Are there Shakespearean lessons that they should be bearing in mind? Should we send them to see the Henriad before they get started?Tyler Send them to read the Henriad before they get started. The complicated nature of power: that the king never has the power that he needs to claim he does is quite significant. The ways in which power cannot be delegated, Shakespeare is extremely wise on. And yes, the DOGE people absolutely need to learn those lessons.Henry The other thing I'd take from the Henriad is time moves way quicker than anyone thinks it does. Even the people who are trying to move quite quickly in the play, they get taken over very rapidly by just changing-Tyler Yes. Once things start, it's like, oh my goodness, they just keep on running and no one's really in control. And that's a Shakespearean point as well.And.Henry Let's say we read Shakespeare in a modern English version, how much are we getting?Tyler It'll be terrible. It'll be a negative. It will poison your brain. So this, to me, will be highly unfortunate. Better to learn German and read the Schlegel than to read someone turning Shakespeare into current English. The only people who could do it maybe would be like the Trinidadians, who still have a marvelous English, and it would be a completely different work. But at least it might be something you could be proud of.Transcript (prepared by AI)Henry Today, I am talking to Tyler Cowen, the economist, blogger, columnist, and author. Tyler works at George Mason University. He writes Marginal Revolution. He is a columnist at Bloomberg, and he has written books like In Praise of Commercial Culture and The Age of the Infovore. We are going to talk about literature and Shakespeare. Tyler, welcome.Tyler Good to chat with you, Henry.Henry So have you ever had a view quake from reading fiction?Tyler Reading fiction has an impact on you that accumulates over time. It's not the same as reading economics or philosophy, where there's a single, discrete idea that changes how you view the world. So I think reading the great classics in its entirety has been a view quake for me. But it's not that you wake up one morning and say, oh, I turned to page 74 in Thomas Mann's Magic Mountain, and now I realize that, dot, dot, dot. That's a yes and a no for an answer.Henry So you've never read Bleak House and thought, actually, I do see things slightly differently about Victorian London or the history of the –?Tyler Well, that's not a view quake. Certainly, that happens all the time, right? Slightly differently how you see Victorian London. But your overall vision of the world, maybe fiction is one of the three or four most important inputs. And again, I think it's more about the entirety of it and the diversity of perspectives. I think reading Proust maybe had the single biggest impact on me of any single work of fiction if I had to select one. And then when I was younger, science fiction had a quite significant impact on me. But I don't think it was the fictional side of science fiction that mattered, if that makes sense to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the models embodied in the stories, like, oh, the three laws of robotics. Well, I thought, well, what should those laws be like? I thought about that a good deal. So that would be another part of the qualified answer.Henry And what was it with Proust? The idea that people only care about what other people think or sexuality or consciousness?Tyler The richness of the internal life, the importance of both expectation and memory, the evanescence of actual events, a sense of humor.Henry It showed you just how significant these things are.Tyler And how deeply they can be felt and expressed. That's right. And there were specific pages early on in Swan's Way where it just hit me. So that's what I would say. Bleak House, I don't think, changed my views at all. It's one of my three or four favorite novels. I think it's one of the great, great, greats, as you have written yourself. But the notion that, well, the law is highly complex and reality is murky and there are all these deep mysteries, that all felt very familiar to me. And I had already read some number of newer sort of pseudo-Victorian novels that maybe do those themes in a more superficial way, but they introduce those themes to you. So you read Bleak House and you just say, well, I've imbibed this already, but here's the much better version of it.Henry One of the things I got from Bleak House, which it took me a couple of reads to get to, was how comfortable Dickens was with being quite a rational critic of the legal system and quite a credulous believer in spontaneous combustion and other things.Tyler Did Dickens actually believe in spontaneous combustion or is that a plot device? Like Gene Roddenberry doesn't actually believe in the transporter or didn't, as far as weHenry know. No, I think he believed. Yeah. Yeah. He defends it in the preface. Yeah.Tyler So it's not so confusing that there's not going to be a single behavioral model that captures deviations from rationality. So you end up thinking you ought to travel more, you ought to take in a lot of diverse different sources about our human beings behave, including from sociology, from anthropology. That makes it harder to be an economist, I would say it scatters your attention. You probably end up with a richer understanding of reality, but I'm not sure it's good for your research. It's probably bad for it.Henry It's not a good career move.Tyler It's not good for focus, but focus maybe can be a bit overrated.Henry Why are you more interested in fiction than other sort of people of a broadly rational disposition?Tyler Well, I might challenge the view that I'm of a broadly rational disposition. It's possible that all humans are roughly equally irrational, madmen aside, but if you mean the rationality community as one finds it in San Francisco, I think they're very mono in their approach to reasoning and that tends to limit the interests of many of them, not all, in fiction and travel. People are regional thinkers and in that region, San Francisco, there is incredible talent. It's maybe the most talented place in the world, but there's not the same kind of diversity of talents that you would find in London or New York and that somehow spreads to the broader ethos and it doesn't get people interested in fiction or for that matter, the visual arts very much.Henry But even in London, if I meet someone who's an economist or has an economics degree or whatever, the odds that they've read Bleak House or something are just so small.Tyler Bleak House is not that well read anymore, but I think an economist in London is likely to be much more well read than an economist in the Bay Area. That would be my prediction. You would know better than I would.Henry How important has imaginative literature been to you relative to other significant writers like philosophers or theoretical economists or something?Tyler Well, I'm not sure what you mean by imaginative literature. I think when I was 17, I read Olaf Stapleton, a great British author and Hegelian philosopher, and he was the first and first man and star maker, and that had a significant impact on me. Just how many visions you could put into a single book and have at least most of them cohere and make sense and inspire. That's one of the most imaginative works I've ever read, but people mean different things by that term.Henry How objectively can we talk about art?Tyler I think that becomes a discussion about words rather than about art. I would say I believe in the objective when it comes to aesthetics, but simply because we have no real choice not to. People actually, to some extent, trust their aesthetic judgments, so why not admit that you do and then fight about them? Trying to interject some form of extreme relativism, I think it's just playing a game. It's not really useful. Now, is art truly objective in the final metaphysical sense, in the final theory of the universe? I'm not sure that question has an answer or is even well-formulated, but I would just say let's just be objectivists when it comes to art. Why not?Henry What is wrong with historical fiction?Tyler Most of it bores me. For instance, I don't love Hilary Mantel and many very intelligent people think it's wonderful. I would just rather read the history. It feels like an in-between thing to me. It's not quite history. It's not quite fiction. I don't like biopics either when I go to the cinema. Yeah, I think you can build your own combination of extremes from history and fiction and get something better.Henry You don't have any historical fiction that you like, Penelope Fitzgerald, Tolstoy?Tyler Any is a strong word. I don't consider Tolstoy historical fiction. There's a historical element in it, as there is with say Vassily Grossman's Life and Fate or actually Dickens for that matter, but it's not driven by the history. I think it's driven by the characters and the story. Grossman comes somewhat closer to being historical fiction, but even there, I wouldn't say that it is.Henry It was written so close to the events though, right?Tyler Sure. It's about how people deal with things and what humanity means in extreme circumstances and the situations. I mean, while they're more than just a trapping, I never feel one is plodding through what happened in the Battle of Stalingrad when I read Grossman, say.Henry Yeah. Are there diminishing returns to reading fiction or what are the diminishing returns?Tyler It depends what you're doing in life. There's diminishing returns to most things in the sense that what you imbibe from your teen years through, say, your 30s will have a bigger impact on you than most of what you do later. I think that's very, very hard to avoid, unless you're an extreme late bloomer, to borrow a concept from you. As you get older, rereading gets better, I would say much better. You learn there are more things you want to read and you fill in the nooks and crannies of your understanding. That's highly rewarding in a way where what you read when you were 23 could not have been. I'm okay with that bargain. I wouldn't say it's diminishing returns. I would say it's altering returns. I think also when you're in very strange historical periods, reading fiction is more valuable. During the Obama years, it felt to me that reading fiction was somewhat less interesting. During what you might call the Trump years, and many other strange things are going on with AI, people trying to strive for immortality, reading fiction is much more valuable because it's more limited what nonfiction can tell you or teach you. I think right now we're in a time where the returns to reading more fiction are rapidly rising in a good way. I'm not saying it's good for the world, but it's good for reading fiction.Henry Do you cluster read your fiction?Tyler Sometimes, but not in general. If I'm cluster reading my fiction, it might be because I'm cluster reading my nonfiction and the fiction is an accompaniment to that. Say, Soviet Russia, I did some reading when I was prepping for Stephen Kotkin and for Russ Roberts and Vasili Grossman, but I don't, when it comes to fiction per se, cluster read it. No, I don't think you need to.Henry You're not going to do like, I'm reading Bleak House, so I'll do three other 1852 novels or three other Dickens novels or something like that.Tyler I don't do it, but I suspect it's counterproductive. The other Dickens novels will bore you more and they'll seem worse, is my intuition. I think the question is how you sequence works of very, very high quality. Say you just finished Bleak House, what do you pick up next? It should be a work of nonfiction, but I think you've got to wait a while or maybe something quite different, sort of in a way not different, like a detective story or something that won't challenge what has been cemented into your mind from Bleak House.Henry Has there been a decline of reading the classics?Tyler What I observe is a big superstar effect. I think a few authors, such as Jane Austen and Shakespeare, are more popular. I'm not completely sure they're more read, but they're more focal and more vivid. There are more adaptations of them. Maybe people ask GPT about them more. Really quite a few other works are much less read than would have been the case, say as recently as the 1970s or 1980s. My guess is, on the whole, the great works of fiction are much less read, but a few of them achieve this oversized reputation.Henry Why do you think that is?Tyler Attention is more scarce, perhaps, and social clustering effects are stronger through the internet. That would just be a guess.Henry It's not that we're all much more Jane Austen than we used to be?Tyler No, if anything, the contrary. Maybe because we're less Jane Austen, it's more interesting, because in, say, a Jane Austen novel, there will be sources of romantic tension not available to us through contemporary TV shows. The question, why don't they just sleep together, well, there's a potential answer in a Jane Austen story. In the Israeli TV show, Srugim, which is about modern Orthodox Jews, there's also an answer, but in most Hollywood TV, there's no answer. They're just going to sleep together, and it can become very boring quite rapidly.Henry Here's a reader question. Why is the market for classics so good, but nobody reads them? I think what they're saying is a lot of people aren't actually reading Shakespeare, but they still agree he's the best, so how can that be?Tyler A lot of that is just social conformity bias, but I see more and more people, and I mean intellectuals here, challenging the quality of Shakespeare. On the internet, every possible opinion will be expressed, is one way to put it. I think the market for classics is highly efficient in the following sense, that if you asked, say, GPT or Claude, which are the most important classics to read, that literally everything listed would be a great book. You could have it select 500 works, and every one of them would really be very good and interesting. If you look at Harold Bloom's list at the back of the Western canon, I think really just about every one of those is quite worthwhile, and that we got to that point is, to me, one of the great achievements of the contemporary world, and it's somewhat under-praised, because you go back in earlier points of time, and I think it's much less efficient, the market for criticism, if you would call it that.Henry Someone was WhatsAppping me the other day that GPT's list of 50 best English poets was just awful, and I said, well, you're using GPT4, o1 gives you the right list.Tyler Yeah, and o1 Pro may give you a slightly better list yet, or maybe the prompt has to be better, but it's interesting to me how many people, they love to attack literary criticism as the greatest of all villains, oh, they're all frustrated writers, they're all post-modernists, they're all extreme left-wingers. All those things might even be true to some extent, but the system as a whole, I would say completely has delivered, and especially people on the political and intellectual right, they often don't realize that. Just any work you want to read, if you put in a wee bit of time and go to a shelf of a good academic library, you can read fantastic criticism of it that will make your understanding of the work much better.Henry I used to believe, when I was young, I did sort of believe that the whole thing, oh, the Western canon's dying and everyone's given up on it, and I'm just so amazed now that the opposite has happened. It's very, very strong.Tyler I'm not sure how strong it is. I agree its force in discourse is strong, so something like, well, how often is it mentioned in my group chats? That's strongly rising, and that delights me, but that's a little different from it being strong, and I'm not sure how strong it is.Henry In an interview about your book Talent, you said this, “just get people talking about drama. I feel you learn a lot. It's not something they can prepare for. They can't really fake it. If they don't understand the topic, you can just switch to something else.”Tyler Yeah, that's great advice. You see how they think about how people relate to each other. It doesn't have to be fiction. I ask people a lot about Star Wars, Star Trek, whatever it is they might know that I have some familiarity with. Who makes the best decisions in Star Wars? Who gives the best advice? Yoda, Obi-Wan, Luke, Darth Vader, the Emperor?Henry It's a tough question.Tyler Yeah, yeah.Henry I don't know Star Wars, so I couldn't even answer that.Tyler You understand that you can't fake it. You can't prepare for it. It does show how the person thinks about advice and also drama.Henry Right. Now, you're a Shakespeare fan.Tyler Well, fan is maybe an understatement. He's better. He deserves better than fans.Henry How much of time, how much of your life have you spent reading and watching this work?Tyler I would say most of the plays from, say, like 1598 or 99 and after, I've read four to five times on average, some a bit more, some like maybe only three times. There's quite a few I've only read once and didn't like. Those typically are the earlier ones. When it comes to watching Shakespeare, I have to confess, I don't and can't understand it, so I'm really not able to watch it either on the stage or in a movie and profit from it. I think I partially have an auditory processing disorder that if I hear Shakespeare, you know, say at Folger in DC, I just literally cannot understand the words. It's like listening to Estonian, so I've gone some number of times. I cannot enjoy what you would call classic Shakespeare movies like Kenneth Branagh, Henry V, which gets great reviews, intelligent people love it. It doesn't click for me at all. I can't understand what's going on. The amount of time I've put into listening to it, watching it is very low and it will stay low. The only Shakespeare movies I like are the weird ones like Orson Welles' Chimes at Midnight or Baz Luhrmann's Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. I think they're fantastic, but they're not obsessed with reciting the text.Henry So, you're reading with notes and you're piecing it together as you go.Tyler I feel the versions in my head are better than anything I see on the screen also, so that's another reason. I just think they're to be read. I fully understand that's not how Shakespeare seemed to view them, but that's a way in which we readers, in a funny way, can improve on Shakespeare's time.Henry No, I agree with you. The thing I get the most pushback about with Shakespeare is when I say that he was a great thinker.Tyler He's maybe the best thinker.Henry Right. But tell us what you mean by that.Tyler I don't feel I can articulate it. It's a bit like when o3 Pro gives you an answer so good you don't quite appreciate it yourself. Shakespeare is like o7 Pro or something. But the best of the plays seem to communicate the entirety of human existence in a way that I feel I can barely comprehend and I find in very, very little else. Even looking at other very great works such as Bleak House, I don't find it. Not all of the plays. There's very, very good plays that don't do that. Just say Macbeth and Othello. I don't feel do that at all. Not a complaint, but something like Hamlet or King Lear or Tempest or some of the comedies. It's just somehow all laid out there and all inside it at the same time. I don't know any other way of putting it.Henry A lot of people think that Shakespeare is overrated. We only read him because it's a status game. We've internalized these snobbish values. We see this stated a lot. What's your response to these people?Tyler Well, I feel sorry for them. But look, there's plenty of things I can't understand. I just told you if I go to see the plays, I'm completely lost. I know the fault is mine, so to speak. I don't blame Shakespeare or the production, at least not necessarily. Those are people who are in a similar position, but somehow don't have enough metarationality to realize the fault is on them. I think that's sad. But there's other great stuff they can do and probably they're doing it. That's fine.Henry Should everyone read Shakespeare at school?Tyler If you say everyone, I resist. But it certainly should be in the curriculum. But the real question is who can teach it? But yeah, it's better than not doing it. When I was in high school, we did Taming of the Shrew, which I actually don't like very much, and it put me off a bit. We did Macbeth, which is a much better play. But in a way, it's easy to teach. Macbeth, to me, is like a perfect two-minute punk rock song. It does something. It delivers. But it's not the Shakespeare that puts everything on the table, and the plot is easy to follow. You can imagine even a mediocre teacher leading students through it. It's to me still a little underwhelming if that's what we teach them. Then finally, my last year, we did Hamlet, and I'm like, whoa, okay, now I get it. Probably we do it wrong in a lot of cases, would be my guess. What's wrong with the Taming of the Shrew? It's a lot of yelling and screaming and ordinary. To me, it's not that witty. There's different views, like is it offensive to women, offensive to men? That's not my main worry. But those questions, I feel, also don't help the play, and I just don't think Shakespeare was fully mature when he wrote it. What was the year on that? Do you know offhand?Henry It's very early.Tyler It's very early. Very early, yeah. So if you look at the other plays that surround it, they're also not as top works. So why should we expect that one to be?Henry What can arts funding learn from the Elizabethan and Jacobean theatres?Tyler Current arts funding? I don't think that much. I think the situation right now is so different, and what we should do so depends on the country, the state, the province, the region. Elizabethan times do show that market support at art can be truly wonderful. We have plenty of that today. But if you're just, say, appointed to be chair of the NEA and you've got to make decisions, I'm not sure how knowing about Elizabethan theatre would help you in any direct way.Henry What do you think of the idea that the long history of arts funding is a move away from a small group, an individual patronage where taste was very important, towards a kind of institutional patronage, which became much more bureaucratic? And so one reason why we keep arguing about arts funding now is that a lot of it exhibits bad taste because the committee has to sort of agree on various things. And if we could reallocate somewhat towards individual patronage, we'd do better.Tyler I would agree with the latter two-thirds of that. How you describe earlier arts funding I think is more complicated than what you said. A lot of it is just people doing things voluntarily at zero pecuniary cost, like singing songs, songs around the campfire, or hymns in church, rather than it being part of a patronage model. But I think it's way overly bureaucratized. The early National Endowment for the Arts in the 1960s just let smart people make decisions with a minimum of fuss. And of course we should go back to that. Of course we won't. We send half the money to the state's arts agencies, which can be mediocre or just interested in economic development and a new arts center, as opposed to actually stimulating creativity per se. More over time is spent on staff. There are all these pressures from Congress, things you can't fund. It's just become far less effective, even though it spends somewhat more money. So that's a problem in many, many countries.Henry What Shakespeare critics do you like reading?Tyler For all his flaws, I still think Harold Bloom is worthwhile. I know he's gotten worse and worse as a critic and as a Shakespeare critic. Especially if you're younger, you need to put aside the Harold Bloom you might think you know and just go to some earlier Bloom. Those short little books he edited, where for a given Shakespeare play he'll collect maybe a dozen essays and write eight or ten pages at the front, those are wonderful. But Bradley, William Hazlitt, the two Goddard volumes, older works, I think are excellent. But again, if you just go, if you can, to a university library, go to the part on the shelf where there's criticism on a particular play and just pull down five to ten titles and don't even select for them and just bring those home. I think you'll learn a lot.Henry So you don't like The Invention of the Human by Bloom?Tyler Its peaks are very good, but there's a lot in it that's embarrassing. I definitely recommend it, but you need to recommend it with the caveat that a lot of it is over the top or bad. It doesn't bother me. But if someone professional or academic tells me they're totally put off by the book, I don't try to talk them out of that impression. I just figure they're a bit hopelessly stuck on judging works by their worst qualities.Henry In 2018, you wrote this, “Shakespeare, by the way, is Girard's most important precursor. Also throw in the New Testament, Hobbes, Tocqueville, and maybe Montaigne.” Tell us what you mean by that.Tyler That was pretty good for me to have written that. Well, in Shakespeare, you have rivalrous behavior. You have mimetic desire. You have the importance of twinning. There's ritual sacrifice in so many of the plays, including the political ones. Girard's title, Violence and the Sacred, also comes from Shakespeare. As you well know, the best Gerard book, Theater of Envy, is fully about Shakespeare. All of Girard is drenched with Shakespeare.Henry I actually only find Girard persuasive on Shakespeare. The further I get away from that, the more I'm like, this is super overstated. I just don't think this is how humans ... I think this is too mono-explanation of humans. When I read the Shakespeare book, I think, wow, I never understood Midsummer Night's Dream until I read Girard.Tyler I think it's a bit like Harold Bloom. There's plenty in Girard you can point to as over the top. I think also for understanding Christianity, he has something quite unique and special and mostly correct. Then on other topics, it's anthropologically very questionable, but still quite stimulating. I would defend it on that basis, as I would Harold Girard.Henry No, I like Gerard, but I feel like the Shakespeare book gets less attention than the others.Tyler That's right. It's the best one and it's also the soundest one. It's the truly essential one.Henry How important was Shakespeare in the development of individualism?Tyler Probably not at all, is my sense. Others know more about the history than I do, but if I think of 17th century England, where some strands of individualist thought come from, well, part of it is coming from the French Huguenots and not from Shakespeare. A lot of it is coming from the Bible and not from Shakespeare. The levelers, John Locke, some of that is coming from English common law and not from Shakespeare. Then there's the ancient world. I don't quite see a strong connection to Shakespeare, but I'd love it if you could talk me into one.Henry My feeling is that the 1570s are the time when diaries begin to become personal records rather than professional records. What you get is a kind of Puritan self-examination. They'll write down, I said this, I did this, and then in the margin they'll put, come back and look at this and make sure you don't do this again. This new process of overhearing yourself is a central part of what Shakespeare's doing in his drawing. I think this is the thing that Bloom gets right, is that as you go through the plays in order, you see the very strong development of the idea that a stock character or someone who's drawing on a tradition of stock characters will suddenly say, oh, I just heard myself say that I'm a villain. Am I a villain? I'm sort of a villain. Maybe I'm not a villain. He develops this great art of self-referential self-development. I think that's one of the reasons why Shakespeare became so important to being a well-educated English person, is that you couldn't really get that in imaginative literature.Tyler I agree with all that, but I'm not sure the 17th century would have been all that different without Shakespeare, in literary terms, yes, but it seemed to me the currents of individualism were well underway. Other forces sweeping down from Europe, from the further north, competition across nations requiring individualism as a way of getting more wealth, the beginnings of economic thought which became individualistic and gave people a different kind of individualistic way of viewing the world. It seems so over-determined. Causally, I wouldn't ascribe much of a role to Shakespeare, but I agree with every sentence you said and what you said.Henry Sure, but you don't think the role of imaginative literature is somehow a fundamental transmission mechanism for all of this?Tyler Well, the Bible, I think, was quite fundamental as literature, not just as theology. So I would claim that, but keep in mind the publication and folio history of Shakespeare, which you probably know better than I do, it's not always well-known at every point in time by everyone.Henry I think it's always well-known by the English.Tyler I don't know, but I don't think it's dominant in the way that, say, Pilgrim's Progress was dominant for a long time.Henry Sure, sure, sure. And you wouldn't then, what would you say about later on, that modern European liberalism is basically the culture of novel reading and that we live in a society that's shaped by that? Do you have the same thing, like it's not causal?Tyler I don't know. That's a tricky question. The true 19th century novel I think of as somewhat historicist, often nationalist, slightly collectivist, certainly not Marxist, but in some ways illiberal. And so many of the truly great novel writers were not so liberal. And the real liberal novels, like Mancini's The Betrothed, which I quite enjoy, but it's somewhat of a slight work, right? And it might be a slight work because it is happy and liberal and open-minded. There's something about the greatest of creators, they tend to be pessimistic or a bit nasty or there's some John Lennon in them, there's Jonathan Swift, Swift, it's complicated. In some ways he's illiberal, but he's considered a Tory and in many ways he's quite an extreme reactionary. And the great age of the novel I don't think of is so closely tied to liberalism.Henry One of the arguments that gets made is like, you only end up with modern European liberalism through a culture where people are just spending a lot of time reading novels and imagining what it is like to be someone else, seeing from multiple different perspectives. And therefore it's less about what is the quote unquote message of the story and more about the habitual practice of thinking pluralistically.Tyler I think I would be much more inclined to ascribe that to reading newspapers and pamphlets than novels. I think of novels as modestly reactionary in their net impact, at least in the 19th century. I think another case in point, not just Tolstoy, Thomas Mann, one of the great novelists, had bad politics, right, was through Germany in the first world war. So if you look at the very greatest novels, there's something a bit problematic about many of their creators. They're not Nazis, they're not Stalinists, but they're not where I'm at either.Henry Now in 2017, a lot of people were complaining about Donald Trump as Julius Caesar and there was some farce about a production, I think it was put on in New York or DC maybe. And you said, no, no, no, he's not Caesar. He's more like a Shakespearean fool because he's the truth teller. What do you think of that view now?Tyler That was a Bloomberg column I wrote, I think in 2017. And I think that's held up quite well. So there's many criticisms of Trump that he's some kind of fascist. I don't think those have held up very well. He is a remarkable orator, coiner of phrase, coiner of insults, teller of truths, combined with a lot of nonsense and just nonsense talk, like the Covfefe tweet or whatever it was. And there's something tragic about Trump that he may well fail even by his own standards. He has a phenomenal sense of humor. I think people have realized that more and more. The fact that his popularity has persisted has forced a lot of people to reexamine just Trump as an individual and to see what a truly unique talent he is, whether you like him as your president or not. And that, I think, is all Shakespearean.Henry Some of the people around Trump now, they're trying to do DOGE and deregulation and other things. Are there Shakespearean lessons that they should be bearing in mind? Should we send them to see the Henriad before they get started?Tyler Send them to read the Henriad before they get started. The complicated nature of power: that the king never has the power that he needs to claim he does is quite significant. The ways in which power cannot be delegated, Shakespeare is extremely wise on. And yes, the DOGE people absolutely need to learn those lessons.Henry The other thing I'd take from the Henriad is time moves way quicker than anyone thinks it does. Even the people who are trying to move quite quickly in the play, they get taken over very rapidly by just changing-Tyler Yes. Once things start, it's like, oh my goodness, they just keep on running and no one's really in control. And that's a Shakespearean point as well.Henry Yeah. Here's another quote from the Bloomberg column, “given Shakespeare's brilliance in dramatizing the irrational, one of my biggest fears is that Shakespeare is indeed still a thinker for our times.” Has that come more true in recent years?Tyler I think more true. So from my point of view, the world is getting weirder in some very good ways and in some very bad ways. The arbitrary exercise of power has become more thinkable. You see this from Putin. We may see it from China. In the Middle East, it's happened as well. So the notion also that rulers can be their own worst enemies or human beings can be their own worst enemies. I think we see more when the world is volatile than when the world is stable, almost definitionally.Henry You once said Julius Caesar was an overrated play. Tell us why.Tyler You know, I read it again after I wrote that and it went up in my eyes. But I suppose I still think it's a bit overrated by people who love it. It's one of these mono plays like Macbeth or Othello. It does one thing very, very well. I think the mystical elements in it I had underappreciated on earlier readings and the complexity of the characters I had underappreciated. So I feel I was a little harsh on it. But I just wouldn't put it in the underrated category. Julius Caesar is such a well-known historical figure. It's so easy for that play to become focal. And Brutus and, you know, the stabbing, the betrayal, it's a little too easy for it to become famous. And I guess that's why I think within the world of Shakespeare fans, it still might be a little overrated.Henry It's written at a similar time to Hamlet and Twelfth Night, and I think it gets caught up in the idea that this was a great pivotal moment for Shakespeare. But actually I agree, over the years I've come to think it's really just not the equal of the other plays it's surrounded by.Tyler Yeah, that's still my view. Absolutely. Not the equal of those two, certainly.Henry What is the most underrated play?Tyler I'm not sure how they're all rated. So I used to think Winter's Tale, clearly. But I've heard so many people say it's the most underrated, including you, I think. I don't know if I can believe that anymore. So I think I have to go with The Henriad, because to me that's the greatest thing Shakespeare ever did. And I don't think it's commonly recognized as such. I mean, Hamlet or King Lear would typically be nominated. And those are top, top, top, top. But I'll still go with The Henriad.Henry You are saying Henriad above Hamlet, above Lear, above Twelfth Night.Tyler Maybe it's not fair because you have multiple plays, right? What if, you know, there were three Hamlets? Maybe that would be better. But still, if I have to pick, no one of The Henriad comes close to Hamlet. But if you can consider it as a whole in the evolution of the story, for me it's a clear winner. And it's what I've learned the most from. And a problem with Hamlet, not Shakespeare's fault, but Hamlet became so popular you hear lesser versions of themes and ideas from Hamlet your whole life. It's a bit like seeing Mondrian on the shopping bag. That does not happen, really, with The Henriad. So that has hurt Hamlet, but without meaning it's, you know, a lesser play. King Lear, you have less of that. It's so bleak and tragic. It's harder to put on the shopping bag, so to speak. In that sense, King Lear has held up a bit better than Hamlet has.Henry Why do you admire The Winter's Tale so much? What do you like about it?Tyler There's some mysterious sense of beauty in it that even in other Shakespearean plays I don't feel. And a sense of miracle and wonder, also betrayal and how that is mixed in with the miracle and wonder. Somehow he makes it work. It's quite an unlikely play. And the jealousy and the charge of infidelity I take much more seriously than other readers of the play do. I don't think you can say there's a Straussian reading where she clearly fooled around on the king. But he's not just crazy, either. And there are plenty of hints that something might have happened. It's still probably better to infer it didn't happen. But it's a more ambiguous play than it is typically read as.Henry Yes, someone said to me, ask if he thinks Hermione has an affair. And you're saying maybe.Tyler Again, in a prediction market, I'll bet no, but we're supposed to wonder. We're not supposed to just think the king is crazy.Henry I know you don't like to see it, but my view is that because we believe in this sudden jealousy theory, it's often not staged very well. And that's one reason why it's less popular than it ought to be.Tyler I've only seen it once. I suspect that was true. I saw it, in fact, last year. And the second half of the play was just awful. The first half, you could question. But it was a painful experience. It was just offensively stupid. One of the great regrets of my life is I did not drive up to New York City to see Bergman present his version of Winter's Tale in Swedish. And I'm quite sure that would have been magnificent and that he would have understood it very deeply and very well. That was just stupid of me. This was, I think, in the early 90s. I forget exactly when.Henry I think that's right. And there's a theater library where if you want to go and sit in the archive, you can see it.Tyler I will do that at some point. Part of my worry is I don't believe their promise. I know you can read that promise on the internet, but when you actually try to find the person who can track it down for you and give you access, I have my doubts. If I knew I could do it, I would have done it by now.Henry I'll give you the email because I think I actually found that person. Does Romeo actually love Juliet?Tyler Of course not. It's a play about perversion and obsession and family obligation and rebellion. And there's no love between the two at all. And if you read it with that in mind, once you see that, you can't unsee it. So that's an underrated play. People think, oh, star-crossed teen romance, tragic ending, boo-hoo. That's a terrible reading. It's just a superficial work of art if that's what you think it is.Henry I agree with you, but there are eminent Shakespeare professors who take that opinion.Tyler Well maybe we're smarter than they are. Maybe we know more about other things. You shouldn't let yourself be intimidated by critics. They're highly useful. We shouldn't trash them. We shouldn't think they're all crummy left-wing post-modernists. But at the end of the day, I don't think you should defer to them that much either.Henry Sure. So you're saying Juliet doesn't love Romeo?Tyler Neither loves the other.Henry Okay. Because my reading is that Romeo has a very strong death drive or dark side or whatever.Tyler That's the strong motive in the play is the death drive, yeah.Henry And what that means is that it's not his tragedy, it's her tragedy. She actually is an innocent young girl. Okay, maybe she doesn't love him, it's a crush or it's whatever, but she actually is swept up in the idea of this handsome stranger. She can get out of her family. She's super rebellious. There's that wonderful scene where she plays all sweetness and light to her nurse and then she says, I'm just lying to you all and I'm going to get out of here. Whereas he actually is, he doesn't have any romantic feeling for her. He's really quite a sinister guy.Tyler Those are good points. I fully agree. I still would interpret that as she not loving him, but I think those are all good insights.Henry You've never seen it staged in this way? You've never seen any one?Tyler The best staging is that Baz Luhrmann movie I mentioned, which has an intense set of references to Haitian voodoo in Romeo and Juliet when you watch the movie. The death drive is quite clear. That's the best staging I know of, but I've never seen it on the stage ever. I've seen the Zeffirelli movie, I think another film instance of it, but no, it's the Haitian voodoo version that I like.Henry He makes it seem like they love each other, right?Tyler In a teenage way. I don't feel that he gets it right, but I feel he creates a convincing universe through which the play usefully can be viewed.Henry The Mercutio death, I think, is never going to be better than in that film. What do you like about Antonin Cleopatra?Tyler It's been a long time since I've read that. What a strong character she is. The sway people can exercise over each other. The lines are very good. It's not a top Shakespeare favorite of mine, but again, if anyone else had done it, you would just say this is one of the greatest plays ever, and it is.Henry I think it's going to be much more of a play for our times because many people in the Trump administration are going to have that. They're torn between Rome and Egypt, as it were, and the personal conflicts are going to start getting serious for them, if you like.Tyler There's no better writer or thinker on personal conflict than Shakespeare, right?Henry Yes. Now, you do like Measure for Measure, but you're less keen on All's Well That Ends Well. Is that right?Tyler I love Measure for Measure. To me, it's still somewhat underrated. I think it's risen in status. All's Well That Ends Well, I suspect you need to be good at listening to Shakespeare, which as I've already said, I'm not. It's probably much better than I realize it is for that reason. I'm not sure on the printed page it works all that well.Henry Yeah. That's right. I think it's one of the most important plays. Why? Because I think there are two or three basic factors about Shakespeare's drama, which is like the story could often branch off in different directions. You often get the sense that he could swerve into a different genre. The point Samuel Johnson made about whenever someone's running off to the tavern, someone else is being buried, right? And a lot of the time he comes again and again to the same types of situations, the same types of characters, the same types of family set up. And he ends the plays in different ways and he makes it fall out differently. And I think Helena is very representative of a lot of these facets. Everyone thinks she's dead, but she's not dead. Sometimes it looks like it's going badly for her when actually it's going well. No one in the play ever really has an honest insight into her motives. And there comes a point, I think, when just the overall message of Shakespeare's work collectively is things go very wrong very quickly. And if you can get to some sort of happy ending, you should take it. You should be pragmatic and say, OK, this isn't the perfect marriage. This isn't the perfect king. But you know what? We could be in a civil war. Everyone could be dead. All's well that ends well. That's good advice. Let's take it.Tyler I should reread it. Number one in my reread pile right now is Richard II, which I haven't read in a long time. And there's a new biography out about Richard II. And I'm going to read the play and the biography more or less in conjunction. And there's a filming of Richard II that I probably won't enjoy, but I'll try. And I'm just going to do that all together, probably sometime over this break. But I'll have all's well that ends well is next on my reread list. You should always have a Shakespeare to reread list, right?Henry Always. Oh, of course. Is Shakespeare a good economic thinker?Tyler Well, he's a great thinker. I would say he's better than a good economic thinker. He understands the motive of money, but it's never just the motive of money. And Shakespeare lowers the status of economic thinking, I would say, overall, in a good way. He's better than us.Henry What are your thoughts on The Merchant of Venice?Tyler Quite underrated. People have trouble with it because it is very plausibly anti-Semitic. And everyone has to preface any praise they give it with some kind of disavowal or whatever. The way I read the play, which could be wrong, but it's actually more anti-anti-Semitic than it is anti-Semitic. So the real cruel mean people are those who torment the Jew. I'm not saying Shakespeare was not in some ways prejudiced against Jews and maybe other groups, but actually reading it properly should make people more tolerant, not because they're reacting against Shakespeare's anti-Semitism, but because the proper message of the play understood at a deeper level is toleration.Henry You teach a law and literature class, I think.Tyler Well, I did for 20 years, but I don't anymore.Henry Did you teach Merchant of Venice?Tyler I taught it two or three times, yes.Henry How did your students react to it?Tyler Whenever I taught them Shakespeare, which was actually not that much, they always liked it, but they didn't love it. And there's some version of Shakespeare you see on the screen when it's a decent but not great filmed adaptation where there's the mechanics of the plot and you're held in suspense and then there's an ending. And I found many of them read Shakespeare in those terms and they quite enjoyed it, but somehow they didn't get it. And I think that was true for Merchant of Venice as well. I didn't feel people got hung up on the anti-Semitism point. They could put that aside and just treat it as a play, but still I didn't feel that people got it.Henry Should we read Shakespeare in translation?Tyler Well, many people have to. I've read some of the Schlegel translations. I think they're amazing. My wife, Natasha, who grew up in the Soviet Union, tells me there are very good Russian language translations, which I certainly believe her. The Schlegels are different works. They're more German romantic, as you might expect, but that's fine, especially if you know the original. My guess is there are some other very good translations. So in that qualified way, the translations, a few of them can be quite valuable. I worry that at some point we'll all need to read it in some sort of translation, as Chaucer is mostly already true for Chaucer. You probably don't have to read Chaucer in translation, but I do.Henry I feel like I shouldn't read it in translation, I think.Tyler But you do, right? Or you don't?Henry No, I read the original. I make myself do the original.Tyler I just can't understand the original well enough.Henry But I put the time in when I was young, and I think you retain a sense of it. Do you think, though, if we read, let's say we read Shakespeare in a modern English version, how much are we getting?Tyler It'll be terrible. It'll be a negative. It will poison your brain. So this, to me, will be highly unfortunate. Better to learn German and read the Schlegel than to read someone turning Shakespeare into current English. The only people who could do it maybe would be like the Trinidadians, who still have a marvelous English, and it would be a completely different work. But at least it might be something you could be proud of.Henry I'd like to read some of that. That would be quite an exciting project.Tyler Maybe it's been done. I don't know. But just an Americanized Hollywood version, like, no, that's just a negative. It's destructive.Henry Now, you're very interested in the 17th century, which I think is when we first get steady economic growth, East India Company, England is settling in America.Tyler Political parties. Some notion of the rule of law. A certain theory of property rights. Very explicit individualism. Social contract theories. You get Hobbes, Isaac Newton, calculus. We could go on. Some people would say, well, Westphalia, you get the modern nation state. That to me is a vaguer date to pin that on. But again, it's a claim you can make of a phenomenal century. People aren't that interested in it anymore, I think.Henry How does Shakespeare fit into this picture?Tyler Well, if you think of the years, if you think of the best ones, they start, like what, 1598, 1599. And then by 1600, they're almost all just wonderful. He's a herald. I don't think he's that causal. But he's a sign, the first totally clear sign that all the pieces have fallen into place. And we know the 17th century gave us our greatest thinker. And in terms of birth, not composition, it gave us our greatest composer, Bach.Henry So we can't have Shakespeare without all of this economic and philosophic and political activity. He's sort of, those things are necessary conditions for what he's doing.Tyler He needed the 16th century, and there's some very good recent books on how important the 16th century was for the 17th century. So I think more and more, as I read more, I'll come to see the roots of the 17th and the 16th century. And Shakespeare is reflecting that by bridging the two.Henry What are the recent books that you recommend about the 16th century?Tyler Oh, I forget the title, but there's this book about Elizabethan England, came out maybe three or four years ago, written by a woman. And it just talks about markets and commerce and creativity, surging during that time. In a way, obvious points, but she put them together better than anyone else had. And there's this other new German book about the 16th century. It's in my best of the year list that I put up on Marginal Revolution, and I forget the exact title, but I've been reading that slowly. And that's very good. So I expect to make further intellectual moves in that direction.Henry Was Shakespeare anti-woke?Tyler I don't know what that means in his context. He certainly understands the real truths are deeper, but to pin the word anti on him is to make him smaller. And like Harold Bloom, I will refuse to do that.Henry You don't see some sense in which ... A lot of people have compared wokeness to the Reformation, right? I mean, it's a kind of weak comparison.Tyler Yes, but only some strands of it. You wouldn't say Luther was woke, right?Henry But you don't see some way in which Shakespeare is, not in an anti way, in a complicated way, but like a reaction against some of these forces in the way that Swift would be a reaction against certain forces in his time.Tyler Well I'm not even sure what Shakespeare's religion was. Some people claim he was Catholic. To me that's plausible, but I don't know of any clear evidence. He does not strike me as very religious. He might be a lapsed Catholic if I had to say. I think he simply was always concerned with trying to view and present things in a deeper manner and there were so many forces he could have been reacting against with that one. I don't know exactly what it was in the England of his time that specifically he was reacting against. If someone says, oh, it was the strand of Protestant thought, I would say fine, it might have been that. A la Peter Thiel, couldn't you say it's over determined and name 47 other different things as well?Henry Now, if you were talking to rationalists, effective altruists, people from Silicon Valley, all these kinds of groups, would you say to them, you should read Shakespeare, you should read fiction, or would you just say, you're doing great, don't worry that you're missing out on this?Tyler Well, I'm a little reluctant to just tell people you should do X. I think what I've tried to do is to be an example of doing X and hope that example is somewhat contagious. Other people are contagious on me, as for instance, you have been. That's what I like to do. Now, it's a question, if someone needs a particular contagion, does that mean it's high marginal value or does it mean, in some sense, they're immue from the bug and you can't actually get them interested? It can go either way. Am I glad that Peter Singer has specialized in being Peter Singer, even though I disagree with much of it? I would say yes. Peter had his own homecoming. As far as I know, it was not Shakespearean, but when he wrote that book about the history of Vienna and his own family background, that was in a sense Peter doing his version of turning Shakespearean. It was a good book and it deepened his thought, but at the end of the day, I also see he's still Peter Singer, so I don't know. I think the Shakespearean perspective itself militates a bit against telling people they should read Shakespeare.Henry Sure. Patrick Collison today has tweeted about, I think, 10 of the great novels that he read this year. It's a big, long tweet with all of his novels.Tyler Yeah, it's wonderful.Henry Yeah, it's great. At the end, he basically says the reason to read them is just that they're great. Appreciation of excellence is a good thing for its own sake. You're not going to wrench a utilitarian benefit out of this stuff. Is that basically your view?Tyler I fully agree with that, but he might slightly be underrating the utilitarian benefits. If you read a particular thing, whatever it is, it's a good way of matching with other people who will deepen you. If it's Shakespeare, or if it's science fiction, or if it's economics, I think there's this big practical benefit from the better matching. I think, actually, Patrick himself, over time in his life, he will have a different set of friends, somewhat, because he wrote that post, and that will be good.Henry There's a utilitarian benefit that we both love Bleak House, therefore we can talk about it. This just opens up a lot of conversation and things for us that we wouldn't otherwise get.Tyler We're better friends, and we're more inclined to chat with each other, do this podcast, because we share that. That's clearly true in our case. I could name hundreds of similar cases, myself, people I know. That's important. So much of life is a matching problem, which includes matching to books, but also, most importantly, matching to people.Henry You're what? You're going to get better matching with better books, because Bleak House is such a great book. You're going to get better opportunities for matching.Tyler Of course, you'll understand other books better. There's something circular in that. I get it. A lot of value is circular, and the circle is how you cash in, not leaving the circle, so that's fine.Henry You don't think there's a ... I mean, some of the utilitarian benefits that are claimed like it gives you empathy, it improves your EQ or whatever, I think this is all complete rubbish.Tyler I'd love to see the RCTs, but in the prediction markets, I'll bet no. But again, I have an open mind. If someone had evidence, they could sway me, but I doubt it. I don't see it.Henry But I do think literature is underrated as a way of thinking.Tyler Yes, absolutely, especially by people we are likely to know.Henry Right. And that is quite a utilitarian benefit, right? If you can get yourself into that mindset, that is directly useful.Tyler I agree. The kind of career I've had, which is too complicated to describe for those of you who don't know it, but I feel I could not have had it without having read a lot of fiction.Henry Right. And I think that would be true for a lot of people, even if they don't recognize it directly in their own lives, right?Tyler Yes. In Silicon Valley, you see this huge influence of Lord of the Rings. Yes. And that's real, I think. It's not feigned, and that's also a great book.Henry One of the best of the 20th century, no doubt.Tyler Absolutely. And the impact it has had on people still has. It's an example of some classics get extremely elevated, like Shakespeare, Austen, and also Tolkien. It's one of them that just keeps on rising.Henry Ayn Rand is quite influential.Tyler Increasingly so. And that has held up better than I ever would have thought. Depends on the book. It's complicated, but yes, you have to say, held up better than one ever would have thought.Henry Are you going to go and do a reread?Tyler I don't think I can. I feel the newspaper is my reread of Atlas Shrugged, that suffices.Henry Is GPT good at Shakespeare, or LLMs generally?Tyler They're very useful for fiction, I've found. It was fantastic for reading Vassily Grossman's Life and Fate. I have never used them for Shakespeare, not once. That's an interesting challenge, because it's an earlier English. There's a depth in Shakespeare that might exceed current models. I'd love to see a project at some point in time to train AI for Shakespeare the way some people are doing it for Math Olympiads. But finding the human graders would be tough, though not impossible. You should be one of them. I would love that. I hope some philanthropist makes that happen.Henry Agreed. We're here, and we're ready.Tyler Yes, very ready.Henry What do you think about Shakespeare's women?Tyler The best women in all of fiction. They're marvelous, and they're attractive, and they're petulant, and they're romantic, and they're difficult, and they're stubborn, or whatever you want, it's in there. Just phenomenal. It's a way in which Shakespeare, again, I don't want to say anti-woke, but he just gives you a much deeper, better vision than the wokes would give you. Each one is such a distinctive voice. Yeah, fantastic. In a funny way, he embodies a lot of woke insights. The ways in which gender becomes malleable in different parts of stories is very advanced for his time.Henry It's believable also. The thing that puzzles me, so believable. What puzzles me is he's so polyphonic, and he represents that way of thinking so well, but I get the sense that John Stuart Mill, who wrote the Bentham essay and everything, just wasn't that interested in Shakespeare relative to the other things he was reading.Tyler He did write a little bit on Shakespeare, didn't he? But not much. But it wasn't wonderful. It was fine, but not like the Bentham Coleridge.Henry I think I've seen it in letters where he's like, oh, Shakespeare, pretty good. This, to me, is a really weird gap in the history of literature.Tyler But this does get to my point, where I don't think Shakespeare was that important for liberalism or individualism. The people who were obsessed with Shakespeare, as you know, were the German romantics, with variants, but were mostly illiberal or non-liberal. That also, to me, makes sense.Henry That's a good point. That's a good challenge. My last question is, you do a lot of talent spotting and talent assessing. How do you think about Shakespeare's career?Tyler I feel he is someone I would not have spotted very well. I feel bad about that. We don't know that much about him. As you well know, people still question if Shakespeare was Shakespeare. That's not my view. I'm pretty orthodox on the matter. But what the signs would have been in those early plays that he would have, say, by so far have exceeded Marlowe or even equaled Marlowe, I definitely feel I would have had a Zoom call with him and said, well, send me a draft, and read the early work, and concluded he would be like second-tier Marlowe, and maybe given him a grant for networking reasons, totally missed the boat. That's how I assess, how I would have assessed Shakespeare at the time, and that's humbling.Henry Would you have been good at assessing other writers of any period? Do you think there are other times when you would have?Tyler If I had met young Thomas Mann, I think there's a much greater chance I would have been thrilled. If I had met young Johann Sebastian Bach, I think there's a strong chance I would have been thrilled. Now, music is different. It's like chess. You can excel at quite a young age. But there's something about the development of Shakespeare where I think it is hard to see where it's headed early on. And it's the other question, how would I have perceived Shakespeare's work ethic? There's different ways you could interpret the biography here. But the biography of Bach, or like McCartney, clearly just obsessed with work ethic. You could not have missed it if you met young Bach, I strongly suspect. But Shakespeare, it's not clear to me you would see the work ethic early on or even later on.Henry No, no. I agree with that, actually.Tyler Same with Goethe. If I met early Goethe, my guess is I would have felt, well, here's the next Klopstock, which is fine, worthy of a grand. But Goethe was far more than that. And he always had these unfinished works. And you would, oh, come on, you're going to finish this one. Like you'd see Werther. OK, you made a big splash. But is your second novel just going to bomb? I think those would have been my hesitations. But I definitely would have funded Goethe as the next Klopstock, but been totally wrong and off base.Henry Right. And I think the thing I took away from the A.N. Wilson biography, which you also enjoyed recently, was I was amazed just how much time Goethe didn't spend working. Like I knew he wasn't always working, but there was so much wasted time in his life.Tyler Yes, but I do wonder with that or any biography, and I don't mean this as a criticism of Wilson, I think we know much less than we think we do about earlier times in general. So he could have been doing things that don't turn up in any paperwork. Sure, sure, sure. So I'm not sure how lazy he was, but I would just say, unlike Bach or say Paul McCartney, it's not evident that he was the world's hardest worker.Henry And Mozart, would you have? How do you feel about Mozart's early career?Tyler Well, Mozart is so exceptional, so young, it's just very easy to spot. I don't I don't even think there's a puzzle there unless you're blind. Now, I don't love Mozart before, I don't know, like the K-330s maybe, but still as a player, even just as a lower quality composer, I think you would bet the house on Mozart at any age where you could have met him and talked to him.Henry So you think K-100s, you can see the beginnings of the great symphonies, the great concertos?Tyler Well, I would just apply the Cowen test at how young in age was this person trying at all? And that would just dominate and I wouldn't worry too much about how good it was. And if I heard Piano Concerto No. 9, which is before K-330, I'm pretty sure that's phenomenal. But even if I hadn't heard that, it's like this guy's trying. He's going to be on this amazing curve. Bet the house on Mozart. It's a no-brainer. If you don't do that, you just shouldn't be doing talent at all. He's an easy case. He's one of the easiest cases you can think of.Henry Tyler Cowen, this was great. Thank you very much.Tyler Thank you very much, Henry. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.commonreader.co.uk/subscribe

www.atravelpath.com   00:00 Introduction 03:45 How Were You Originally Funding Your Full Time Travels? 05:45 How Long Have You Been Traveling Full Time? 06:45 How Long Was Full Time Travel a Goal for You? 08:15 What Was the Biggest Obstacle Before Going Full Time? 09:45 What Are Your Purging and Downsizing Tactics? 13:15 What Are the Biggest Travel Frustrations You Currently Face? 15:45 RV Maintenance and Repairs 19:45 What Tools Should Every RV Owner Have? 21:45 What Do You Love Most About Your Travel Lifestyle? 23:15 Checklists 29:15 How Do You Get Internet While Traveling? 29:45 Past Mistakes 35:45 Charity 38:45 Coolest Travel Experience 40:15 What is One Thing You've Learned You Can't Live Without? 49:45 Knowing Each Other's Roles   It was so great having Phil and Stacy from Today is Someday on our show! Phil and Stacy have been going full time in their Class A motorhome for about 6 years. We asked them how they were able to do it and what life is like for them on the road. They shared all about the importance of checklists and maintenance, and weren't afraid to share the fact that they are spending more time maintaining their RV than they did on their home. When I asked them if they were using the funds of their home sale to pay for their travels, they mentioned they hadn't touched that. They have the foresight to know that one day they will want to hunker down in a stationary home again, so they are keeping money saved up for that. Tune in to learn about even more!   Find Phil and Stacy At: ·        https://todayissomeday.net/ ·        https://www.youtube.com/c/YouMetheRV ·        https://www.instagram.com/todayissomeday_travel/ ·        https://www.facebook.com/todayissomeday   Charity: ·        https://todayissomeday.net/military-charities ·        https://give.ourhfotusa.org/fundraiser/3882334   Phil and Stacy's Videos Referenced: ·        Slap Wrist Checklists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bArIvXHtDCc ·        Setup and Break Down Checklist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUaxI5X4qHg ·        15 Purging Tips: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCVixKTokr8&t=356s   Other YouTube Channels Referenced: ·        https://www.youtube.com/@KeepYourDaydream ·        https://www.youtube.com/@LessJunkMoreJourney ·        https://www.youtube.com/@gonewiththewynns ·        https://www.youtube.com/@Rvlove/videos   Show #6 With Jim and Michelle from Airstreamer: ·        https://atravelpath.com/retired-full-time-rv-living/   Applicable Episodes: ·        All About the Banks: https://atravelpath.com/retire-in-an-rv/   Most Popular Blogs: ·        Most Popular Travel Hacks: https://atravelpath.com/money-saving-travel-tips/ ·        Travel Gear: https://atravelpath.com/travel-gear/ ·        How to Budget For Gas on a Road Trip: https://atravelpath.com/how-to-budget-for-gas-for-a-road-trip/ ·        Our Favorite RV Upgrades: https://atravelpath.com/rv-upgrades/ ·        How Much We Made Renting Our RV: https://atravelpath.com/renting-camper-van/ ·        Never Run Out of Gas on a Road Trip: https://atravelpath.com/road-trip-tip/   Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/abbynoise/rocky-mountains   #fulltimerv #rvlife    *All content from atravelpath.com, including but not limited to The Travel Path Podcast and social media platforms, is designed to share general information. We are not experts and the information is not designed to serve as legal, financial, or tax advice. Always do your own research and due diligence before making a decision.   Transcript:   Tyler: Phil and Stacy, welcome to the Travel Path Podcast.   Phil and Stacy: Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having us.   Tyler: So, we know you from YouTube as Today is Someday, where you post videos on everything from RV adventures, tutorials gears, gadget reviews. You post a lot of destination reviews, which you're not afraid to share your opinion on certain destinations. On your website, you have raised over $170,000 towards your charity, which is amazing. We're excited to dive into that later on. I do want to give a quick shout out to Jim and Michelle from Airstreamer on episode 6; they mentioned they binged your content while they were learning and leading up to their full-time travel life. But why don't we start by having you share a little about yourselves?   Phil and Stacy: Sure, you want to start? Go ahead. Okay. Honestly, our story is very similar to a lot of full-time RVers. We love to travel, and at some point, we decided to sell everything we own: our house, all of our stuff, and buy an RV to travel the country. Phil's retired Navy, and we quickly discovered when he retired that I actually saw him more when he was deployed via FaceTime than when he got home. I was working full-time as a nurse practitioner, and I was working a lot of hours. So, RVing was our way to make a change and try to get some of that time back. Yeah, and for me, that was the biggest thing. I had toured other countries, I had been on many deployments, I missed a lot of the kids growing up. So for me, jumping into this lifestyle, and we had never camped, never done any of that. So for us, it was getting that time back and taking a leap of faith at the same time.   Tyler: Okay, very cool. That answers one of my questions later on about how much experience did you have before you went full-time. So when you had sold your home to take on this full-time travel lifestyle, I imagine you had the proceeds from the sale of your home, I imagine a military pension, any other forms of income that helped support that when you started out?   Phil and Stacy: It was really just my retirement. Well, you were also a Navy contractor when we first hit the road, so he was working remotely. Now, we did not use the sale of our house to fund any of this because, one, if we hated it, we wanted an out. So, all of that we invested to buy another house in the future, and two, we knew someday that we wouldn't be living this lifestyle. So eventually, you know if it going to break enough to where we're going to have to hit a sticks and bricks. So we wanted that money there just in case. So, we used the income we had saved. We are big on not having any debt, so we didn't have any debt except for our house when we came up with this idea. So we didn't have to work really hard like some people do to get out of debt; we were already a step ahead of that. So, really, we just lived off his pension once his job or his Navy retirement once his job ended. Yeah, and we started saving and planning and prepping, you know, probably a good few years before. We didn't know what we were planning or prepping for, but we knew we wanted to do something. So, we had already been on that track to have enough money saved to do whatever we wanted to do. And then it just kind of came to a front, and we sold it and jumped. But I definitely recommend if somebody's thinking about doing something like this, people don't realize how expensive it can be, and being out of debt and not having that pulling you down really enables you to do all the things that you want to do when you travel to new locations.   Tyler: Yeah, well, I think it's really smart of you guys to sell that and not use the proceeds, having the foresight to know that eventually, you know, this is sustainable but at some point if you want to transition back into sticks and bricks, you have that lump sum there you can put a down payment down. And you started about five years ago, right, full-time?   Phil and Stacy: Almost six. This May will be six years since we've been on the road.   Tyler: Yeah, so you're doing the remote work before co, before it was cool.   Phil and Stacy: Yeah, before it was, yeah, yeah.   Tyler: Great. So, what did your kind of day-to-day look like while you were working, and are you still working remotely full-time or part-time?   Phil and Stacy: Well, I do consider "Today is Sunday" to be full-time now. I actually spend more time on that than I did as a nurse practitioner. But the difference is I get to do it on my own time, you know, when and how much I want. So, we definitely, that's definitely a full-time job for us now. But when we first started, really, it was his Navy retirement, and we, I mean, we really had to live on a budget to make sure that we could survive out on the road. And thankfully, there are so many ways to RV; you really can RV on a tight budget, which is what we did. Yeah, and we were used to having a budget, which is key, I think. And if you can live within your existing budget when you first start, that also helps kind of jump you.   Tyler: Yeah, that's great. You had mentioned you were kind of saving up and planning preparing for something but you weren't sure exactly what it was for a number of years. How long was the time frame between when you learned that you wanted to hit the road and travel full-time and till the point that you actually started doing it?   Phil and Stacy: Initially, it was going to be four years. So, our son was graduating from high school, he was starting college, so we gave ourselves four years to really figure out what we wanted to do, what RV we wanted. Phil had just started researching RVs, and then our son decided that college was not for him. So, he quit school and he joined the Navy. And when he joined the Navy, that just boosted up our timeline. We went from four years to just over a year and a half, not quite two years, for us to really research, find an RV, and which really became Phil's full-time job for a while, and sell everything, and move in, including our house, and move into the RV.   Tyler: Great. Well, I think it helped that you were able to propel that because you were planning, preparing in advance, you already saving up and doing like I said, you were saving for something just weren't sure what it was. So during that process, the year and a half it took you to make the decision we want to go full-time, what was the biggest obstacle you had to face to get there?   Phil and Stacy: I'll let you take this, Phil. For me, I was my own obstacle because we had built, there was actually, we had built our retirement home, and you know, we were able to put in the features and design it the way we wanted to. So I was happy, I had my three-car garage, I had my man cave. But Stacy kept telling me, "It's just stuff, we can get more stuff later." So, for me, purging and getting rid of all of the things that wouldn't fit in a 300-foot box was really hard for me. The flip side of that though is we did travel and move quite a bit in the military. So, we were used to having to purge and you know, get rid of things, pack up, move to the next place. So that was, I guess, my biggest obstacle. Stacy didn't have one other than me. I was just ready to go, let's just go. She started this whole room by room purge, and it made it a lot easier for her. And I'm sure I'm speaking out of line, but it made it easier for her to purge and get to where she needed to be because she started doing it one room, you know, a closet at a time, and just built on it.   Tyler: Yeah, I think it definitely helps when you're, when you have moved around quite a bit. We're not in the military, but we move around with our rental properties pretty frequently. So when people tell us they're moving, like, it's, we've moved so many times in the past like five years, it's just, it's just easy to us for some reason. We accumulate less things. So, that's good. So, having that experience of doing that. I know you've posted videos in the past on some of your purging and downsizing tactics. Do you want to share any of those?   Phil and Stacy: I should probably take this one. Yes. So, I think some of the hardest things for people to get rid of, and Phil was this way too, are the things that you connect to people, and we connect those items to people and think that's the memory or that's a part of them. So, whether it's Grandma's antique furniture or photos that have been in a box for the last 20 years, I think some of the easiest ways to go through those and get rid of them is to actually take a picture of the item. You can create your own memory book with these items and actually talk about the memory that you have attached to that item and keep the photo and get rid of the stuff. So, you know, Grandma is not a part of that dresser, but she might be a part of the memory that you attach to the dresser, sure.   Tyler: That was a great tip. And we were watching some videos to prepare for this; you had another tip, I think, didn't you, like take your clothes and put them reverse on a coat hanger, and then like after a couple of weeks?   Phil and Stacy: Yeah, so I did that with Phil because he had like 400 t-shirts, and he kept saying, "I wear every t-shirt." And I'm like, "No, you don't." So, we take all the hangers, hang them backwards on the rod, and then as you wear them, you hang them up correctly. And then in three months or six months, you'll see exactly what shirt you're wearing, and it makes it really easy to purge. And you can do this really anytime; you'll be surprised how few items in your closet you actually wear on a daily, weekly basis. Yeah, and come to find out, I only wore like 14 to 20 of them at any one given time. I was like, "Wow, that I mean it was kind of eye-opening for me." And then what she did, she didn't just say, "Okay, the rest have to go," she said, "Pick the ones that mean the most to you." And I had a lot of work T-shirts from being in the military; we had T-shirts that were designed by students at my last command, so I had quite a few of those. So, I took the ones that I really liked, and that meant something to me, and Stacy turned them into a quilt that we now carry with us on the RV. Yeah, so we still have it.   Hope: Oh, that's really cool. And it's a great tip. Not even if you're not traveling, it's something you can do seasonally, every, you know, spring, fall. Tyler: Yeah, even start a season with them facing the same way, and then at the end of the season, you'll know which ones you didn't wear.   Phil and Stacy: Yeah, we try and do that, but we're not very good at it. I mean, I just, I don't know, I get attached to things. I mean, I like my stuff. I spent good money on my stuff. And then she's over here, like, just get rid of it, we can get something else later. Like, so, but it has gotten a lot easier. We're, we're the opposite, we'll throw, I'll try and throw everything I can out as possible, and then she'll like, save some of it, and then I'll, I'll find it, and then I'll be wondering where something I threw out is, and she's like, you threw it out. I do over purge. Yeah, that's what we call, I'm an over purger. I'm like, oh, that one thing, man, I think I got rid of it. She also was a little sneaky, and she would get rid of my stuff that she didn't like, and she would do it, you know, a little bit here, a little bit there, and I, you know, I had so many shirts and so many different things that I never even missed it. And it wasn't until she told me, you know, we were arguing about keeping something, and she, you know, would bring up, I've thrown away three things that you haven't even missed, like, I would never do that.   Hope: That's funny, good teammates then, exactly, good balance over there.   Tyler: Yeah, yeah, as we can fast forward a little bit to your current life on the road now, what are some of the biggest frustrations you currently face while traveling?   Phil and Stacy: Well, what's your biggest frustration? I think maybe everybody's frustration as RVers, I think the only thing really is just the repetitiveness of RV repair and maintenance. So when we sold our house, we really thought, okay, well, no more lawn, no more maintenance, no more repairs. And little did we know, we actually do. I say we, but I really mean Phil, does more RV repair and maintenance than he ever did on the house. So, I think really that's everybody's frustration and everyone's surprised when they move into their RV. Yeah, it's, I mean, you have to have some kind of knowledge in being a handyman to kind of stay on top of it. I mean, these things are rolling, you know, hurricanes going down the interstate, so they're constantly shimmying, shaking, and, you know, you're hitting things on the road that jar things loose. And I'm not talking just nuts and bolts, I'm talking wiring, you know, electrical connections, things like that. So, I mean, it's a little different for every type of RV, but for us, you know, we will stay on top of it, and as long as we do that, she'll continue to take care of us. Along with that, I think our other biggest issue would be just agreeing on where to stay sometimes. Well, the easiest way is just not to let him look, because, yeah, Phil is the spender, I'm the saver. So, I like to balance the budget, so sometimes we'll stay at expensive places, but then we have to cut back and balance it all out. So, we'll stay at somewhere inexpensive. Phil would be okay staying at the expensive places all the time. Well, not the, like, super expensive, but just nicer.   Tyler: Yeah, yeah, that's funny. I've learned to kind of just take the back seat with planning and just drive the car, drive the van, that's it.   Phil and Stacy: Well, I do, I agree with you, I'm just the driver. And it's not until we get there that I'm like, really? She's like, yeah. And I'm like, okay.   Tyler: So, you bring up a good point about the maintenance with RVs, and it doesn't really, it doesn't matter if it's brand new or used. We bought a brand new RV, and like you said, it's bumping down the road. We have a wire that came loose that's tripping an outlet, and we've tried, we've hired RV techs trying to find where that short is, and you can't find it. So, there's all sorts of, just be prepared for the maintenance and, you know, all that that comes along with the one RV. Have you found, like, a certain number of days or even, like, a price point that you're spending per month or so on repairs and maintenance?   Phil and Stacy: Oh, um, I don't know if we've looked at it that way because it definitely goes, it ebs and flows. I think our other, other than regular diesel maintenance, which is according to the miles, we had one huge cost recently. Um, as we left, um, Newland, you want to tell them about that? Most of our, our maintenance is or repair work is, is usually done annually. So, little things I stay on top of, and they're not, you know, it's not a huge out-of-pocket card because I already have some of the equipment or I have parts on hand if I need to replace something. So, that, to put a dollar amount to it, I really can't say. Um, it's just like, you know, at your house, you have things in the garage, and, you know, you have extra filters and extra whatever, so you just swap them out. But our annual maintenance, I would say, for our diesel pusher that we have, um, anywhere from 2,000 to 2,500 for the year. And that's the engine, the chassis, the generator, all the big-ticket items that are required, um, to be done annually. And then, our big, um, oh, and then the issue that we had coming out of Maine. So, um, I don't know if it was the roads we were on or what, but we had a, a super expensive manifold exhaust leak on our engine, and we were, we were losing boost pressure, you know, we were almost rolling backwards going up the mountainside in Newland. Pretty scary when you don't really know what it is, and I'm not an engine guy. So, we, we limped into the Freightliner of Maine once we got back to the US, and they discovered what it was, they got us in and out in like five days, which was pretty good, they did amazing. Um, and that one was dang near a $7,000 repair. Um, however, we were prepared for any kind of major event, so we had a specific, uh, repair fund set aside, and that we just, you know, ever since we, even before we started, we just, we started putting money into this, this fund. So, we called it either the repair, the emergency fund, yeah, it's the repair fund, um, so that we have it in case something like this came up, and it did. And a retire fund, yeah, because tires cost so much for these things, so we just, that's what we use, we, we, we started with different, you know, funds that we started doing, putting a little bit of money into all these different places because we knew eventually we would need to, you know, something is going to jump up and bite us, and that was our big one, and that's, and that's pretty much it in six years. I mean, other, other than that, it's been just normal and normal things that that Stacy can tackle up on the roof herself, sometimes.   Tyler: That's interesting. So, you guys not only have like a repair fund set aside, which is smart in the first place, but you also, you go one step further and have like a tire fund or an emergency fund on top of that. So, you even, you kind of further layer that. That's brilliant.   Phil and Stacy: Yeah, well, and it's because, you know, we could have just one emergency repair fund or one emergency fund, right? But then you take for granted, oh, I've got enough in that one, right? So, then now we started another one, so we make sure that we have enough in that one.   Tyler: Yeah, no, it's great. Everything with you guys is calculated, and there's a reason for everything. I like that.   Phil and Stacy: It was by accident.   Tyler: So, we talked about some of the, you know, the frustrations, the downsides of full-time RV travel. Let's transition a little bit to some of the positive. So, what do you love most about this lifestyle?   Phil and Stacy: The freedom. There's so much, yeah, it's the freedom to, to go and do what you want to do when you want to do it, on our time. Um, for me, that's, that's the most rewarding because for almost 30 years, I was told what to where, I was told where to go, I was told when I could go home. So, you know, flipping that, that switch to now being free to move about the country whenever we want, or I should say the world, it's amazing. And I think for me, what we've discovered, and we used to hear people say this, and we didn't get it until we went full-time, and that's the community. I think once you start meeting the people, and you really make connections with RVers, other RVers on the road, you'll realize that the RV community is pretty darn amazing. Yeah, so I think for, for us, finding that and, you know, meeting our people out on the road, it's so different than any community we've ever been a part of. So, I, I think for, for me, that's pretty high on the list. And you get to meet them and run into them all over the country, you know, so you may meet them at one specific place, and then everybody goes their own way, but you're all crossing paths, even those that are not full-timers like us, they still get out, they still, you know, we're in their neck of the woods, and they're like, hey, you got to come over, we've got this great ice cream spot we want to take you to. Tyler: Yeah, no, it has been great. And like, even like, every person we talked to on the podcast, like now we have people, every episode, there's some other place when we're traveling, they're like, oh, next time you're out, you know, give us a shout, we'll grab lunch or something. Yeah, it's been great. Um, yeah, you, you talk about on your channel quite a bit about preparation and checklists. Not just your channel, you talked about it a lot in this podcast as well. What are some things every RVer should do before they hit the road?   Phil and Stacy: Definitely have a checklist, yeah, um, and your checklist is going to be everything you do when you go to break down and pack up to hit the road. Um, most accidents and injury can happen at set up and breakdown if people aren't paying attention if they miss something. So, having that list and not getting distracted when you're going down the list, um, talking to your neighbor is really important, and I think it keeps you on track, and you know, it keeps you from busting your satellite or, um, the awning being out, which we just saw, we just saw nobody leaving the campground with their awning open. Or even a big mistake that we made early on is, well, we've made a few, but Phil forgot to put the pen in our dolly, so we're driving down the road, and the dolly's like dragging. Yeah, so I mean, you can make so many mistakes, and you just, one little blip where you lose track of what you're doing, you can, you can make a major mistake. And you know what, I tell people all the time is, with having a checklist, the minute you get interrupted, whether it's on, you know, your spouse or your significant other calls you in for something, or somebody outside comes over and wants to say, hey, and, and talk to you, soon as you're done with whatever that interaction is, go back to step one, because inevitably, you know, we're all human, we figured, oh, I've already done that, or I think I'm here, and then you'll miss a step or two, and then that's when catastrophe strikes. So, for us, is have that, go back to it, um, and if you're in doubt, just start all over, you know. But having that checklist before you hit the road is, for us, is it's been huge, and we've been doing almost six years, and we still pull out that checklist, and we use it every time before we drive away.   Tyler: Yeah, and we, and it sounds like you guys are, you're physically getting out, you're walking around your RV. We know people that do that as well, um, but what are some of the big ones, people, like, are you checking your tires, you're making sure everything's retracted?   Phil and Stacy: The big thing is, is our tires are, um, TPMS, TPMS, and make sure we're aired up properly, um, and that's not only for safety, but it's for, for fuel consumption. Um, we always do a final, one of us will always do a final walk around, and we always check our lights. I don't know how many people, if they check their lights to make sure, because we have a toad, we want to make sure the lights are hooked up properly, we have brakes, we have blinkers, so the people behind us, um, can, you know, see where we're going and what we're doing. So, we've, we've gone and stepped completely behind the Jeep as it's attached to the RV, and we've gone further back from it to physically, physically see that, or make sure that we can see our brake lights right from cars behind us coming up on us, um, and I use the checklist for unhooking and hooking up the Jeep, we both do. We pull it out of the console, and we go by it step by step. We've been doing this for five years, and there's only, you know, a handful of steps to do on that Jeep. But if you miss one of them on your Jeep, you're going to drag your tires, you're going to have, you're going to have the parking brake on, whatever it is. So, we go through that checklist, and the last thing we do is we make sure that all four of the Jeep tires are rolling freely. So, we don't just check one side of the Jeep to see that the tires are rolling, we check both sides, um, to make sure. And that's just kind of our final check before we get in, put the seat belts on, and, and hit the road.   Tyler: Can you explain the slap wrist bracelets?   Phil and Stacy: So, we didn't actually invent this, we, there's another couple we saw using them, and it's really great for all dribbles. Um, instead of having a physical paper or a physical list, we just take those '80s old-school slap wrist bracelets, we got a Sharpie, and we put all of our checklist on the bracelets, and then we just smack them onto our steering wheels so we know all the things that we need to do before we hit the road. And you can just pull them off your steering wheel one by one as you complete it, and that way you know if you go to drive away and something's still in that steering wheel that you forgot to do something on your checklist.   Tyler: Yeah, that's brilliant. It's something so simple.   Phil and Stacy: And so many people have said, "That's brilliant." We can't take, you know, credit for it, but we love it because it's, you know, you could take them while you're walking around outside, doing your, if you're by yourself. So you have a handful of them and as you're doing whatever outside, just smack it on your arm and you're good to go. You know you've done it.   Tyler: Yeah, yeah. No, it's simple, it's effective, and unlike an iPad, if you have a list on an iPad, the battery's not going to die. You're always going to have that there.   Phil and Stacy And we've marked through them, we've added new stuff as our situations changed, as we've gotten, you know, upgrades and done different things to the RV. So, you know, your checklist is not going to be set in stone once you start. You will evolve and change and add stuff on like, you know, you forget something a couple of times in a row, and you're like, "Oh, I better add this to the checklist," or you, you know, like we changed our satellite or whatever. So just remember you can change it as you go along and definitely keep it up to date as your RV Life Changes.   Tyler: Yeah, no, it's important. And like you said, you guys are still doing it now, but I think it's even more important starting out because when everything is new to you, you can get nervous. Once you get nervous, it's hard to think, and that's when you can easily forget something.   Phil and Stacy:  And another great benefit of having that is Stacy's had to do everything by herself. So, like, normally I will do everything outside, she'll do everything inside. So the one time that I couldn't do anything, she had to do it, the entire checklist was right there. All those slappers' bracelets were there for her to use and to go through, and she knocked it out of the park with that.   Tyler: Yeah, that's great. How are you getting internet when you're traveling?   Phil and Stacy: We have a Peplink modem router, and we use a T-Mobile SIM card for that. And that's our main internet means of getting internet into the RV. And of course, like many RVers, we have Starlink as our backup.   Tyler: Great. Do you want to share any mistakes that you or anybody you know have made in the past that could potentially help a listener?   Phil and Stacy: Plenty of mistakes in the very beginning. Our biggest one that still, to this day, I don't know how we didn't damage something. We actually moved the RV while we were still plugged into the pedestal. Oh, wow. So, yes, we got really lucky. We were, and of course, it seemed like every time we got underway in the beginning or loaded the car on the dolly, it was raining. So I was in a hurry to get the dolly connected to the RV, and it was pouring down rain. So I'm out there soaking wet, and I finally got the dolly to where I could hook it up, and I told Stacy to move the rig forward, not realizing that now I'd already tripped the breaker, and why, I don't know. Normally, when I trip the breaker, I pull the power cord. It's two steps, trip, pull it. That day, I tripped it, and I didn't pull it. So, in my mind, we're good, and I told Stacy to go ahead and move forward. I came around from the passenger side to the driver's side, and there's my entire power cord laying out with our surge protector still connected to it, laying... I mean, just straight as it could be on the ground. And I quickly looked over at the pedestal to make sure it was still upright, and it was fine, the cord was fine, the pedestal was fine, both of our hearts were in our throats. I mean, it really scared us. Yeah, I mean, we could have ripped out the pedestal. That would have been major money to repair. We've seen instances where people have actually ripped the plug off their power cord, so then they have to get that repaired. So we really dodged a bullet on that one. But then again, that's how mistakes happen when you're in a hurry, you're not following your normal routine. And that's why those checklists are so important. If he had the checklist out there that day, he would have known that he didn't follow through on what he normally does. And the slap wrist is waterproof, so there's no excuse. I should have had it with me.   Tyler: That is true, very true. I was going to say, was that the day that your checklist was born when that happened, or was that just not on there?   Phil and Stacy: Yeah, we already had it, but I think we added to it that. Yeah, really. And this was like really early. We weren't even full-time yet. We still had a house we were just visiting. We were doing some shakedown trips. So it really honed in and made us realize how important those checklists were.   Tyler: Yeah, it is, yeah. Oh, it is, yeah. Um, well, thank you for sharing that. Appreciate that.   Phil and Stacy: And yeah, you can find all kinds of mistakes on our Channel. We're not scared. Well, we did the dolly. Um, let's see, what else did we do? What other big mistakes did we make? We're happy to have other people learn from us because, honestly, that's the whole point in sharing some of our content is because when we discover new things that either we've been doing wrong or new ways to do things, that's what we like to share, because, you know, that's the stuff that's of most benefit to our community here. Here's something that we do because we got burned by it one time, not literally burned, but it was a bad deal, and nobody had ever mentioned this when we were doing our research, and that's getting into a site and before you do anything in your site, check the pedestal, make sure you have good power. So normally, we had been doing it that way, and we had been boondocking for a while, so we hadn't been plugging into anything. So we get into this nice State Park, we get level, we open everything up, I go to plug in to the pedestal, and the pedestal is bad, no power. And we had already, we're all open, we had everything open, and normally, I would plug in my surge protector and let it do a diagnostic check on the pedestal. And that day, we didn't do it, you know, so that was another one of our mistakes. It was like, okay, from now on, doesn't matter. This is what we're doing first. And it didn't cost us anything, it didn't hurt anything other than time. So we just had to close back up, we had to readjust the rig, we actually stole power from a pedestal next door empty pedestal until the state park could come out and repair. But you know, it's just one of those steps that it just reinforces, is following through.   Tyler: And of course, of course, it was the one time where you didn't do it first. That's how it always works.   Phil and Stacy: Always. That's when it's not gonna work. It's, it's like it's like pulling when you hook up your sewer hose. You don't just open up your black tank and let it flow, you open up the gray tank to make sure you have a good connection. Ask us how we know. You know, I mean, it's those kind of mistakes that people don't think about, um, that jump out and they, they bite you right in the tail. I forgot, I fell out of the RV. A lot of people fall out of the RV. I fell out of the RV because when the rig is running, you open when the rig is running, the steps are retracted. So when you open the door, the steps come out. Well, you have to wait a few seconds for the steps to come out. Well, I got impatient. I, well, I didn't get impatient, I just opened the door and did not stick The Landing, I can tell you that learning experience, right?   Hope: Yeah, Tyler did something similar.   Tyler: I did?   Hope: yeah, when you fell, when we were winterizing.   Tyler: Oh, yeah.   Hope: Ours were old school, so they didn't Auto, oh my gosh, because we were winterizing, and he forgot the step was half retracted and it slid out and I went down.   Tyler: And it was one of those and knocked the wind out of me. I was trying to say I was okay, but I was like, I couldn't even talk,   Phil and Stacy: Oh my gosh, yeah, you just never know for sure. No. And we've, in fact, somebody in our community, our crew, he just broke his leg. He's a solo guy, and he fell out of his rig, and we've heard that from a lot of people and broke his leg. So now he's sitting for six months. Well, the one, our one crew, she had to have surgery after she fell. It's crazy. You just never know.   Tyler: That's true. That's true. That's why you need to just take your time and not be in a hurry. Yep, easier said than done. It is, yes, it is very true. Do you want to share a little bit about your charity?   Phil and Stacy: Oh, sure. So we actually don't have our own personal charity, but there are several veterans charities that we've rallied around. The biggest one is homes for our troops, and they actually build custom homes for service members with severe injuries. These homes are amazing. So it is totally free for the veteran, and it's one of the biggest charities that we've rallied around and where we've raised the most money. But we're up to over $170,000 now. We're working on 200,000. But we've done all kinds of crazy things to raise money, from dunk Booth to we did a pie in the face, we did auctions and raffles and all kinds of stuff. So it's been really amazing to see the RV community rally around us and really dig deep to donate to these veteran charities. So it means the world to us, and it's not us that's doing it. It's the RV community that's doing it. That's the important thing. We're just two people with a voice using our platform to help, you know, help veterans. And being that we were in the military for so long and connected to it, it hits home with us. So we, you know, if the channel dissolved tomorrow, we would still do whatever we could to help, that's how, that's how much it means to us.   Tyler: Yeah, no, it's great you guys are doing that. And I know people can help by purchasing t-shirts, right? And I guess this is, if you're watching on YouTube, we'll do our big reveal. We're wearing our, uh, today is someday t-shirts right here. How does that work?   Phil and Stacy: So if somebody orders a shirt, there's proceeds that go towards your charity, right, or the charities, right? Anything from our veteran line, we have veteran cups and t-shirts and hats. Anything from the veteran line, all the proceeds will go toward homes for our troops. So about every quarter, we get a statement from our, um, the company who runs our store, and we just go straight off the list, and we donate it over to homes for our troops. So it's been, it's been really great, a nice easy way for us to raise money. The other really simple way is our crew. We have a membership and a big portion of our membership funds that we raise also go over to homes for our troops. So it's, it's really rewarding.   Tyler: That's great. And it's amazing you're were able to raise that much money in just this, you know, five to six-year period. That's incredible.   Phil and Stacy: Yeah, it is. It's very incredible. We are loving it, and   Tyler: We'll put a link in the show notes for the links to the charities, your website, everything people need to know to, um, to donate there.   Hope: Um, what has been your coolest travel experience so far?   Phil and Stacy: Oh, the coolest. It's always hard when people ask those questions because, you know, you go to so many different locations, and you like different locations for different reasons. So I do have to say, Yosemite is one of our favorite places. We were at a National Forest campground just outside Yosemite, and that's where our jeep was broken into by a bear. So it was the most very first night momentous, and the one of the most beautiful places we've stayed, yeah, that one was really cool. It's the bear break game, but my one, my other one would be Creed, Colorado. We Boondock on top of a mountain U there in Creed for a week, uh, with a couple of our friends, and it was absolutely breathtaking up there and so peaceful, yeah, unhooked all of us on our own power, everything. I mean, it was just to wake up and see the sun peeking over the mountains every morning. I mean, if you haven't experienced that, you got to get out, go find the mountains and check it out. It's amazing. It's, yeah, the, and the towns around there are just, you know, very nice, quaint, quiet little, just, yeah. And I grew up in Colorado, my, in my teen years, and I didn't, um, I didn't appreciate what Colorado had to offer as a teenager. And now that I've gone back home, it's like, man, this is, I mean, it truly is a gorgeous place to visit.   Tyler: Yeah, wow. So after spending just about 5 years traveling, what's one thing you learned you can't live without?   Phil and Stacy: Oh, wow, that'd be for you, because I could probably live without everything. No internet, I would say internet. I think this day and age, it's got to be internet. Um, because, um, you know, you hear the stories where you pull into a campground and they have camp Wi-Fi or park Wi-Fi, we would, we would, we would be kicked out because of the amount of bandwidth that we use. Um, but we have having our own internet, um, system with us. So we could pull in anywhere, for the most part, and our internet works perfectly fine for us. And it's not just for our channel, it's also for our family staying connected to our kids and our grandkids. That's how, I mean, that's how we communicate with them. And even though we're far apart, we always feel connected because, I mean, I talk to my daughter several times a day, even when, even when I don't want to, she's always FaceTiming me, um, and then my son too. So I think staying connected, um, that's the number one way. Yeah, everything else, I mean, the, you know, we have a lot of safety features that um, that we've added to the rig that, you know, we absolutely stand behind and it would not drive down the road without them. Our TPMS being one of them, um, but yeah, other than that, I think, you know, most rvers have the same type of stuff, um, you know, they got into this lifestyle because they wanted less stuff and more freedom, yeah. So for us, we don't have a lot of stuff, but we have everything we need. Like if we were in our house, just on a smaller scale, sure.   Tyler: So the internet, and then maybe the TPM, TPMS that reads the tire pressure when you're driving, right?   Phil and Stacy: Yep, okay, pressure and temperature, yeah.   Tyler: We might end up changing that question to besides internet, what can't you live without. I think like the past four episodes, it's been internet, which we agree with.   Phil and Stacy: Yeah, especially if you're doing this full-time vlogging, doing a blog and a website, you, you inter, we started out with all the things we thought we needed, you know, an outdoor carpet, you know, big comfortable chairs to sit outside, but we found those things just took up space and we weren't utilizing them, yeah, everywhere we went to. Um, so we, you know, we purged again. And so we went to smaller chairs, a little more compact, um, we have a barbecue, or we have a Blackstone, wait, we don't, we, it's not seen the sunlight in almost two years, I think. It's, it's funny how you think you need stuff and then you shortly find out that not there's very few things that you truly need, yeah, we we did a video a couple years ago. We were camping with my mom in Upstate New York. And we were in the site right next to hers. And they have a, you know, bumper pool, uh, travel trailer, and it took them two days to set up their camp. They're not full-time, they're part-time, they're just weekenders. Took them two days to set up camp, and we were right next to them and we showed, you know, a shot of our campsite had two chairs outside and that we drug them over to her campsite. We go over to her campsite, and she's got everything out, you name it, she had it out, um, so I mean, you could walk through a campground and you can really spot full-timers and weekenders, you know, because they're coming out play, you know, they're coming out to play for the weekend and pack it all in with the kids or whatnot, and full-timers are just kind of there, you know, they're, they're out in town, they're hiking, they're seeing thing, um, so it's just, it's for us, that's, you know, we thought we needed that stuff, and come to find out we didn't need it after all, yeah.   Tyler: It is interesting we had one neighbor, they took like a week to set up, it was the most insane, and then they were gone, they took like seven days to set up, and they left, it was like the craziest thing, they get it just right and then it's Sunday, yep, and then time to go. They didn't even enjoy it.   Phil and Stacy: I never saw them sit down outside on the chairs they put out. They were setting up all day and next thing you know, we've seen that where people have come in and, you know, they've got the kids are running around riding bikes and doing kid things, which is cool, and mom and dad never got to relax because it was setting up the whole time, yep, yeah, you can make it very simple as long as you try to don't over complicate it, I think is the biggest thing.   Tyler: I know I mentioned before like the most popular answer has been internet and I think the connection I just made was it's been internet for people who are traveling in larger class A's or fifth wheels where they have more things but when we talk to like van lifers or people who aren't traveling in a larger motor home they tend to have more because they're they're getting rid of more things to make room for their smaller living space so maybe that's the connection um and like I said too yeah we definitely could not get away with doing this on campground Wi-Fi there's no chance.   Phil and Stacy: No, and you know for us, most things that come in the RV have to have a dual purpose whenever possible. Yeah, you have to have so we can see van lifers have to have, you know, if they have a slotted spoon, that thing is for 18 different things, not just, you know, you know what I mean. So, for us, when we were thinking of things to bring into the rig, a lot of them had to have multiple uses because you didn't need for the same thing to do the same thing, yeah.   Tyler: If you could have listened to this podcast when you first started out, what is one question we didn't ask tonight that you wished we had, and how would you answer that now?   Phil and Stacy: It's really hard because we're looking back over six years and this is honestly, we've been doing it so long, it's just a way of life now. It's all we know and it's hard to remember the beginning. Um, I think a couple of those things that I mentioned earlier, checking the pedestal, checking the sewer hose connection because, you know, those could be maybe just the safety, more safy... Well, I knew even before we had our RV, I knew I needed a TPMS system, I knew I needed a surge protector, so I had those two things before I even had my RV, before I even knew what RV I was going to get, I knew I had to have those because, you know, being in the military for so long, safety on a ship was in the front of your face every single day, so we were prepared, safety-wise, yeah. I don't know. I don't, that's a really hard question because there's so much to learn when you first hit the road, like you're being fed to a fire hose, yeah. And the biggest thing though is, is, you know, we were just talking about it how people, you know, they get to a campground and they're setting everything up and they, you know, they're packing everything in in three hours. For us, we were trying to do a little bit of that in the beginning, we were move, move, move, trying to go, go, go and we didn't need to, you know, because we're full-time, we were doing this on our own terms. In fact, every single time we were to leave one spot and go to another spot, whether it was three hours down the road or six hours, which we don't do anymore, I told Stacy we got to go to the grocery store, you know, we, we got to pack up, we're going camping, we have to go to the store and she was like, we don't have to, we can go get it when we're there. So, it was a mindset change that we had to go through, um, and the first six months, we, we called it the RV and then shortly around the six month mark, we, we stopped calling it the RV and started calling it home.   Hope: But I think those are some really good points that you brought up, especially the if you're going to go full-time, it's no longer your RV, it's your home.   Phil and Stacy: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think just the mindset shift is something you have to work towards as you start and you don't have to, you don't have to go, go, go, you know, you can go to a spot, our sweet spots around seven to ten days, um, in one spot and that's enough time to get out, see it, see, you know, make sure we've, you know, punched the right boxes, um, but it's enough that we say, you know what, we liked it so much we can come back, we don't need to cram everything in because we're free to move about the country, sure.   Tyler: And for somebody listening to this podcast right now who wants to set up a lifestyle similar to yours but isn't there yet, what is one thing they can start doing today?   Phil and Stacy: Um, I think there are a couple things they can start doing today, um, it to work toward the goal of full-time RV life and first is, you know, do your homework, do your research, you know, what's your goals, what kind of RV are you going to need based on your needs, are you going to work from home, do you have kids, you know, kind of start your research for that and then the next thing I would suggest is, um, get out of debt. If you're in debt, that is the best way to enable you to have the experiences you want to have on the road, so, um, obviously the less money you're spending on bills, the more money you have to go play for tickets or whatever activities, so experiences, yeah. Um, I know not everybody has the same opinion of me as far as being debt-free but that is definitely my number one and then probably the last thing and we actually have a video on this and that is before you sell everything you own and your house, make sure you have an Exit Plan so if something happened to you tomorrow and your health failed, what are you going to do if you can no longer RV, do you have an Escape Route, you need to be able to know what you're going to do, are you going to move into an apartment, are you going to get a house, are you moving in with family because emergencies happen on the road all the time, we've seen it, we've seen the death of a partner, we've seen where people physically have an injury or a stroke or so many things and they cannot RV so make sure you are prepared for that next step and you don't trap yourself to where you don't know what you're going to do, yeah, yeah, very good point.   Hope: Now speaking of what you just said, like the death of your partner, right, so does that mean both of you should equally know how to hook up that camper and drive away?   Phil and Stacy: Yes, 100% because, you know, I something could happen to me, I'm, I drive this thing 24/7, um, Stacy knows how to, I have driven it, yeah, in the event that she had to for whatever reason, um, but it is good to know each other's roles, she can do, Stacy can do everything on this RV by herself and she's done it, had to do it, um, she's done it on video so there's proof, it was actually in the hospital, um, a couple years ago, um, he had surgery and we had to move SES, um, so he, it was during covid, I couldn't even be at the hospital so I literally packed up the RV, got in it, moved to the next site, um, it's got us all set up, um, I mean I didn't have to drive it that far but I was able to close everything up, shut it down, move it, and then open everything back up again to include hooking up the Jeep, I mean she knows how to do all of that, it's our setup for the Jeep is super easy, it's five minutes each way, yeah, um, but that, you know, and we've been in places and we've known people or met people on the road that, you know, the husband did all the work, did everything and when he wasn't there, they were stranded, yeah, she did not know what to do, no means to get anywhere, um, but the good thing about the community is they rallied around her and they got her the help she needed but um, it is imperative that you know each other's roles and we've practiced like we switch jobs where I'll do all the outside, we do it as a refresher, um, I, I actually put on video where I was hooking up the Jeep and those stupid toe arms were kicking my tail because they were so tight but um, but we do know how to do it, we do switch off, um, every quarter every six months or so.   Tyler: Yeah, really good advice, yeah, you guys could teach a course like it's been, there's been so much new material and new ideas, New Concepts in this podcast our audience is going to find it really valuable thank you for sharing everything and um, were there any when you were starting out and even to the state were there any YouTube channels that helped inspire you or either even books or other influences that helped inspire you to travel?   Phil and Stacy: Well there were quite a few out when we started there were like four main ones cuz um um we we've been around for a minute but our main ones that we watched was um kyd less jum more Journey the wind gone with the winds and they were when they were still rving not in their boat and then the biggest influence on us is RV love and the reason is because I was trying to convince Phil that we could do it and he was working remotely for the Navy and he was like no I have this job how am I going to work on the road and at the time Mark was working in his office was this closet he turned into his office in his RV took the bunks out and turned it into like look Mark is doing it they're traveling and they're going all over the country and he works a nin to5 he has to clock in and literally clock out and if he can do it you can do it remotely where you know he Phil's job enabled him as long as he put in his eight hours he could do it how and whenever he wanted to do it so um they really proved to him thanks to Mark um they proved that we could could actually do it and that was really what launched us. Tyler: Yeah that's great yeah YouTube University can be quite convincing.   Phil and Stacy: Yeah it I made it my my part-time part-time job um because I was working from home I had the time to you know scour the interwebs looking for different RVs because we didn't know what we didn't know about rving um so we would start you know we started doing our homework then and and then it got to a point where we weren't allowed to watch those YouTube channels unless we are both there to watch them together because we got that you know ingrained into what you know their videos what they were saying how they were doing things um so they they are the ones that really you know indoctrinated.   Tyler: We'll put a link in the show notes for all the channels and links we talked about in today's show uh one last question for travel tips part two you guys are coming back on just so we don't leave our audience in too much suspense where are we talking about next time?   Phil and Stacy: We are talking about Newfoundland. Tyler: All right perfect and one last question Phil and Stacy where can our audience find out more about you guys? Phil and Stacy: You can find us at uh todayissomeday.net with our website and our blogs and then of course our YouTube channel Todayissomeday. Tyler: Awesome thanks again guys Phil and Stacy: Thank you, thanks.

On this episode of The Fred Minnick Show, singer-songwriter Alyssa Bonagura sits down with Fred to sip some whiskey and rap. She started singing at age 2, and by age 10 was recording a duet with Kenny Rogers. She has worked with artists as varied as Steven Tyler and Jodee Messina, and also is a producer. As an artist, Bonagura has released four albums since 2008. On the show, she and Fred talk about her career, her unique name, social media, the pandemic ... and she also performs a tune from her forthcoming album. Whiskeys tasted: Smoke Wagon 12 Year (13:22) Bardstown Bourbon Company Fusion Series (26:00) Four Gate Batch 10 Rye (51:50) Montanya Rum (1:02:03) EPISODE SUMMARY Fred and Alyssa get into many subjects, such as: Fred comments Alyssa on her positivity, something she says she learned from her mother. She talks about how by the time she was three weeks old, she was on the road touring with her parents' band, Baillie and the Boys. Literally, music has been part of her life almost since birth. They reminisce about meeting at Hometown Rising and the pre-covid fun. Alyssa says Smoke Wagon reminds her of Scotch, calling it "light" - even though its 110 proof. She gives it a "10 out of 10." Fred bangs the drum again for Knob Creek 9 Year, which he feels is ignored because "it's everywhere." Thus, it will never have a cult following like, say, Blanton's or Weller. He compares it to an artist in the 1980s that consistently had hits but was never the flavor of the month. The Bardstown Bourbon Company blend gets compared to hanging out with friends around the bonfire drinking from Solo cups. Talking seasonal cocktails, Fred brings up the Mint Julep. "If the Kentucky Derby didn't come around, five people in the world might be drinking Mint Juleps." Alyssa talks musical influences, from Casey Kasem's Top 40 to vintage country to more modern female country and folk artists. She also was into Coldplay. She also was big into the Beatles thanks to her father, and she spent three years in Liverpool, England, studying music engineering. She eventually goes full "fan girl." Fred and Alyssa talk about how in country music, the opening line is more important than ever and more important in country than other genres. They also discuss writing for one's self rather than to appease a specific audience, whether it's a song or a new book. At about the 45:00 mark, Alyssa plays a new song she wrote during covid quarantine. It's titled, "End of the World." (Don't worry, it's a positive song.) After the song, she admits she's getting tipsy from the whiskey and she notes she's glad she didn't wait 10 more minutes to perform. They bond over how awful the final season of "Game of Thrones" was. Alyssa compares one particular scene as being like an adult version of "The NeverEnding Story." And not in a good way. Fred and Alyssa talk about their "fur babies" and it transitions into emotional songs that can make them cry. When they break out the rum, she randomly brings up when she was in Spain, on tour with Steven Tyler. "My life is weird," she says, laughing. By the time the show winds down, Alyssa circles back to her "breakup boots." It's a story worth hearing about. QUOTABLES Alyssa Bonagura on drinking with friends: "I always feel like it's the same thing with any kind of alcohol that you have in a setting where you're with your friends and ... it becomes like some kind of camaraderie, sharing something together because you really start to see and connect with someone in a different way - and that's why I love music so much, that you connect with someone on this crazy deep level." RESOURCES http://www.alyssabonagura.com/ https://twitter.com/alyssabonagura https://www.instagram.com/alyssabonagura/ https://www.youtube.com/user/alyssabonagura See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode, Emil and Michael chat with Tyler Jahnke about how he persevered through a nightmare of a first deal to being a part of 100s of unit of real estate.   --- Transcript   Emil: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. My name is Emil Shour, and today I'm joined by my cohost,   Michael: Michael Albaum.   Emil: And we are interviewing Tyler Jahnke. Tyler has become a good friend of ours and is also one of the writers on the Roofstock blog. So you may be familiar with him on some of the content he's written there. And this was a really fun episode. We got to talk to Tyler about the story of his first rental property. He lives up in the Bay area and he talks about investing in the Midwest and some of the painful lessons he learned along the way of buying that first property and how he's grown to be a partner and owner of over a hundred units through syndication deals. All right, without further ado, let's hop into this episode.   Theme Song   Emil: Tyler. Welcome to the show, man. We're excited to have you.   Tyler: Thanks very much. I appreciate you reaching out and getting my attention and allowing me to hop on today and talk with you and Michael.   Michael: This is going to very much feel like every day on Twitter when we're always chatting about real estate investing stuff. Anyway, it's just on an audio format.   Tyler: A quick little plug for Twitter there, I guess, right? Like most of us I think, met on Twitter and that's been a great platform for both of us or all of us and engaging in and connecting with people so happy. We met there and happy to talk real estate as much as we want.   Emil: Yeah, it's funny. I've been on Twitter for years and I never realized there was this real estate investing and money, Twitter corner of Twitter. Like I always just used it for marketing and other stuff. And I was so stoked when I found this little community that's super engaged and loves talking and sharing best practices. So it's been fun, man.   Michael: It's funny. This is my first live Twitter interaction coming off Twitter. And I'm so glad to see Tyler and I were chatting before we started recording it. And his personality on Twitter matches his personality in real life, which is always great because sometimes you meet folks. It's like, wow, you're really well written. And I can't stand you as a person, not the case at all here, which is always nice.   Tyler: I'll be honest. I was a little worried thinking it just through like seeing you in person, it's like, how is he going to think I come across in reality versus someone who's behind a keyboard or a, you know, a mobile device typing 280 characters. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that are completely different. And I was like, hopefully I come across similar, online as I do in person.   Michael: I think by the same thing, I don't want to catfish anybody.   Tyler: Yeah. Now I will mention the first thing I noticed about you and Michael was the longer hair. I'll say that.   Michael: For anyone who hasn't seen, the reason they have leveled, they let myself go with the head hair and facial hair department. I'm going out the quarantine cut on, call it.   Emil: Cool. So Tyler, before we hop into the good stuff what's going on in your world, what's new.   Tyler: Oh, that's I mean, that's a big question. So first things first I work full time still. I am not a full time real estate investor. That's something that I think some people maybe assume that I am. So I do work full time in a sales and business role out here in the Bay area, born and raised in Berkeley, California. My office is in as in San Francisco, clearly we're all working from home right now, but so, you know, a lot of my day is still consumed by that full time job. But my nights weekends are still very much real estate or whether that's analyzing deals, talking to partners, talking to investors and networking, engaging, and then doing a lot of content build out on my platform and then just, you know, talking real estate as much as I can on my nights and weekends. So that's kind of what my day looks like right now. It's, it's becoming somewhat repetitive, but I have enjoyed it. And I do try and get out on weekends and hike and see the outdoors a little bit.   Emil: Now that you've mentioned that you live in the Bay, my follow up question is how did you get into real estate investing? And why did you choose remote real estate investing? I think part of the, you answered with you live in the Bay area, but give us the back story.   Tyler: Yeah, I guess I'll tackle the question of how I got in first and then we'll go to why out of state. But so I started investing in 2016, so about three and a half years ago now I was working a good job that I enjoyed in an industry that I also enjoy and still enjoy. But I did see myself, you know, kind of the future Tyler down the line, probably having to work another 40 years and reaching that age of 65 and then maybe retiring. So I think in my late twenties, a little bit of self reflection and trying to figure out what I wanted to accomplish in life. And a lot of that had to do with time freedom, which I think a number of your listeners are probably also conscious of right now, if they're thinking about real estate. And so I had to try and figure out ways to bring an income outside of my W2 job and just try and accelerate my growth on the financial side.   So through business podcasts, through investing podcasts came along this topic and strategy of real estate, which is abundant and everywhere, but no one really thinks about it. I mean, when I say no one, the majority may not really think of it as an investing opportunity. And so, you know, I saw it as somewhat of a logical step and I guess, strategy just by the fact that you could bring in monthly recurring income through tenants, paying off your mortgage and insurance and taxes, and maybe even letting you cashflow a little bit. And then to answer your question on why out of state for me at the time, it was pretty obvious. I couldn't afford anything in the Bay area. And I also wanted that cashflow and it's very hard to cashflow property in Oakland when you're going to pay $750,000 for it. It's quite impossible. Now I'm not saying it's impossible, but there's definitely challenges there.   So, you know, jumping into, out of state investing made sense for me, it was definitely a little scary because you emotionally get attached to these investments. I think as a newbie and you're like, I want to see it in person. I want to touch the front door, but at the end of the day, it's not necessary. If you have the right team on the ground to help you out and really guide you along the way. And so long story short, why out of state, it was affordability and the cashflow potential.   Michael: So I want to know Tyler, how did you make that leap? Really, a lot of people call it a leap of faith jumping into this out-of-state market. Having never been there, maybe having never met your team on the ground, walk us through the mindset and the decision making that you went through to end up where you did.   Tyler: That's the important part is to make the actual leap. And I think I will admit early on, I was rather naive and I didn't have everything buttoned up from an education standpoint. I didn't really know how to properly run the numbers that actually worked for me. I'm not saying, you know, leap in uneducated. I think again, that helped me initially because I was naive in the challenges and maybe dangers of investing at a state. But now thinking back, you know, over the years, my advice to others that are in a position of, okay, I want to do this, but how do I take the next step? I think it can actually be seen as a quite simple process. If you are educated in a market that you want to invest in, if you know how to analyze property, and if you have, you know, the longterm vision of what real estate can do for you, I think that's enough confidence to make the next step.   If you know the market you want to invest in, you know how to analyze property, you have the vision, like it's just going to be a mental at that point. So I don't have the exact advice for people on how to make the next step, because it's completely mental. Once you get those three things down, a market analysis and a vision, once you have that, it's all mental. So it's just going to come down to the individual and some people do it. Some people don't and that's fine. It's just mindset and personality.   Michael: How did you find your first market? What did that look like?   Tyler: My very first property that I bought in closed in December of 2016, I went the turnkey route and I felt that the fact that I had a full time job and working 40 plus hours a week, I felt that the turnkey route would be the best option for me to at least dip my toe into real estate. I will say the turnkey route is not always the best method. If you don't understand the partners on the ground properly, like I found out later. So I went to Turkey about found the market in the Indianapolis area. So the Midwest, which had high cashflow potential good acquisition to price ratio and had some of the metrics of a cashflow market, like population growth, job growth with higher wages, diverse economy. This could be a whole separate topic. So I apologize if I'm jumping too far ahead on what to look for in a market.   Michael: This is great.   Tyler: But I'll say that I hooked up with a drinky company out in the Midwest thought I vetted them properly, picked up a property for $37,000 cash back in the day, which is like the cost of a somewhat nice car. But it actually, instead of depreciated quickly, it's actually an asset that would produce income. So yeah, first property turnkey out in Indianapolis.   Emil: I read your blog a bunch and I know you've talked about the experience of this first property and it's such a good one. And I'd love for you to share the story of, okay, you bought this property 37 [inaudible] on paper. It looks like it's going to cashflow nicely. I'll let you take the floor. Tell us about the story.   Tyler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is the best and worst investment of my life. So best in a sense that it got me in the game, right? I'll keep preaching this, like getting the game, getting the game, getting the game, whether that's a good or bad investment on paper, it's kind of a start that snowball. So yeah, $37,000 cash worked with a turnkey company that I barely vetted. I hopped on the phone a couple of times they started sending me leads via email routinely.   Michael: Did you chat with any other turnkey companies or this was the one?   Tyler: You know, me, you know, I didn't talk to anyone else. So it was all, I put all my eggs in one basket and that's kind of also my personality too. I'm pretty quick to trust and that's a double edged sword, as we all know, I'm usually pretty optimistic and very trusting. So that's good and bad, good and bad. So anyways, I talked to this company, you know, I started getting leads. I started evaluating the properties and my simplistic formula of figuring out how to actually calculate cash flow back in the day. I remember, you know, the estimated rents at seven 50 a month for a property that costs $37,000 napkin math on that was basically okay. Let's give the property manager 10% and let's account for property taxes and insurance. But you know, in my eyes, seven 50 a month, taking away all those expenses, I could probably cash flow 300, three 25 a month. We'll call it, which I wouldn't even touch anyways. My plan wasn't to actually spend that cashflow. So I was like, okay, if I could get a few of these properties in the next five years, you know, now we're talking substantial numbers on the cashflow side.   So I acquired this property and then that's when I decided to fly out. So after I actually close on this property in December of 2016, I decided to fly out to Indianapolis in March of 17. I initially wasn't even going to do that, but my parents were like, Tyler, I think you might want to like meet the people you're working with and just see if that property exists. I was actually kind of reluctant, but now I kind of make it a routine to check on my markets annually. We'll call it pre COVID. So we closed on that property. It takes about two or three months to actually renovate. And it wasn't really a big rehab job. They refinished like the hardwood floors. They replaced a window. They did a little bit of painting.   Emil: The turn-key company is doing that for you?   Tyler: Correct, yes. So the turnkey company, I guess the term turn-key by definition means it should be easy. There are some good Turkey companies out there and there's bad ones. My advice is just to vet them properly, if you go that route. So it took a few months to really quote unquote renovate it. And there were some red flags that popped up initially. And those were some things that I've, you know, looking back I've learned from if red flags are popping up, that you're not happy with in terms of maybe lack of communication or miss deadlines and timelines, I kind of became ignorant or I guess I ignored them because I really wanted to just close on this property and become a real estate investor. And so I think emotion took over and in some points where I was like, you know, realistically, I should have questioned these red flags up front, but I didn't. Cause I was like, real estate is a thing I'm going to acquire 10 properties and become financially free.   So I was too focused on that end goal. Finally got that thing rented. We did have a tenant in there for about 11 months. They paid on time every month, seven 50 a month. I took out, you know, 10% for property management. I made sure I had some reserves for property taxes, insurance. And then I just kind of pocketed that cashflow fast forward to the, you know, as I mentioned that cashflow for 11 months, we'll fast forward to that 12th month. My buddy who's actually in the real estate space as well in the Indianapolis market. He randomly drove by my property just to check up on it. And it was like Tyler, there's a lockbox on the front door. And I'm like, what do you mean? There's a lock box in the front door? Like what, first of all, I was shocked and I trusted him, but I didn't know what that actually meant.   So that caused some alarms in my brain, I guess you could say. It was like at that moment I was like, is this real estate thing gonna actually work? Because that was my first real, real big hurdle. And I guess I had to think through from a business standpoint, what would the next step be? So I didn't mention anything to my turnkey provider. I actually kept that quiet to start with. I wanted to get some verification from others. So I then began the process of actually building another team on the ground out there, aside from the turnkey company I worked with. And that was kind of again, why I go back to like this being my best and worst investment. It forced me to overcome these challenges and build a new team on the ground.   Michael: So Tyler was this turnkey provider also managing the property for you?   Tyler: Yep. They did everything. They sourced the deal. They walked me through the closing process, set me up with insurance and insurance agent. They renovated it. They managed it from a property management standpoint.   Michael: One stop shop.   Tyler: A one stop shop, everything you could have in one box there. Okay. So anyways, I called a couple of property management companies had them drive out there, pay them a little bit money to help me out and just verify that it was in fact clearly that the lock box on the front door meant it was vacant. I don't know the whole story. Apparently the tenant had left without telling anyone and the property was vacant and I was never notified. And that was the last straw. So I fired the turnkey company, had another property manager, take it over. I know this story is kind of going on, on and on and on.   Michael: This is all great stuff.   Tyler: We're getting towards the end of that first property. So after having a new company take over management, after vetting a number of them, I really had to make sure that this next hire of a property management company would be right. So I was on the phone, every lunch at work and at night, just talking to people to try and figure out who the best property managers in Indianapolis were finally selected someone. They went out there, cleaned it up, took over management and they crafted a scope of work on what would be needed to get this thing rent ready. Cause my thought was okay, small little blip in the radar. Let's just get this thing cleaned up, get this thing rented again, get it back on the market and get a tenant in there and then start cash flowing again. And then I'll live my happy life. So they go in there, they craft the scope of work. First of all, I'll say the scope of work was probably a little more than I needed, but it was still a bill for $16,000. And I'm like, uh, wait, what? So, uh, so the property cost 37,000 up front. I need to put another 16 K into this thing to get this thing a rent ready. And I was like, there's no way I'm going to do that. Now along those, you know, the first 12 months of me owning that property too, I think I became a little bit more savvy. I actually, I learned a lot more after I had closed on real estate than I had. And so that's when I started really focusing more on the impact of location and obviously like the partners you work with. So my strategy in owning that first property had actually changed within those 12 months.   And I decided that buying in better neighborhoods with a little bit less risk and a different tenant profile would be the strategy I wanted to take. So ultimately I ended up selling that property. I did not put the 16 K into it. I did not think that that property would have a good longterm outlook. And I started buying in better neighborhoods. So long story short bought the property for 37,000, sold it for 41 a year later, took a year of cashflow minus closing expenses or closing costs. I probably netted, I think it was like 2% in a year. So I honestly call that a really big win on my part. I was like, if I could just break even on that first property, I think there's just so much knowledge and education and experience you get from that first property.   Emil: So why did you decide to keep going? This is, I feel like I've heard so many stories where people, something like this happens and they give up and they're like, ah, this real estate investing thing isn't for me or someone who's new has zero properties is hearing this and is like, I don't ever want to deal with this. Yeah. Why did you keep going?   Tyler: I'll give you a couple answers. Some you may want to hear some of you may not. The first answer you may not want to hear is I already had a second property under contract. So by default I had to keep going.   Michael: That's great.   Tyler: But so I was actually really confident after that first property, given all those circumstances and those challenges, I was like, I know what I did wrong. Like I bought in a bad neighborhood. I hired the wrong people. I just followed, you know, my napkin math. And I touched on this earlier. Like I became better at analyzing properties. So the deals would be better. And then again, like just buying in a better neighborhood with a different tenant class profile, that to me was important. I wanted someone who could afford rent and not be challenged by if their car broke down, that they have to decide between the car repair or rent.   I wanted, I guess, a little bit more security. So that's why I started buying in better neighborhoods. But I felt like, you know, after that first property round to the second property, I had learned so much in that first one, I could do it better and I could just get better every time. And so that was, it actually built confidence. And so, yeah, I went through some short term struggles and I think a lot of people will go through that short term struggle period. But if you really think that real estate is something that's going to be part of your life for 40 years, and it's a longterm strategy that one year of education and challenges will just amplify our growth, you know, as you move forward,   Emil: I love that.   Michael: Such a good story Tyler. I've got a couple of questions for you. And then 11 month period, when you were collecting rent and cashflow, did you think that you were a fricking genius that you had just got a dialed?   Tyler: Yeah.   Michael: Me too.   Tyler: Oh, I was smiling. Every check that came in, the first check that came in, I was traveling with my buddies in Vietnam and I remember waking up one morning and I'm on vacation. Right. I'm on vacation Vietnam. And I got a paycheck. I got a check that came in at like one in the morning and I was like, this is unbelievable. I need to keep buying these as soon as just rapidly. And so, yeah. And it's funny because I started off my journey in the content space by just posting on bigger pockets and I kind of posted my life experience and I love going back online and be like, Hey guys, just want to give you an update. I got my payment, my check came in and I'm good. So yeah, it was definitely all smiles for a solid 11 months until, you know.   Michael: Until it wasn't until it wasn't.   Tyler: And so that's what got me back to reality.   Michael: The learning process that you're talking about and the education process that you're talking about, it seems like that'll happen in month 12. Like that was a massive ramp up for you because for 11 months things were good. So you thought you had done everything right?   Tyler: My education prior to closing was not the greatest, but I really started ramping up the education process after I started closing. So that was, I got addicted to podcasts. I got addicted to bigger pockets. I got addicted to just consuming, consuming, consuming content in the real estate space. And that's why I had my second property already under contract. By the time, you know, all these challenges popped up. So I guess I would say I really started continuing that education process, you know, after I closed and I still do today, even though, you know, I've kind of grown in, in the investing space, but it's podcasts, it's books, it's websites, and it's talking to people like you guys.   Michael: I think that's such a big takeaway for everybody listening is, Hey, after you've accomplished the goal of purchasing that property, whether it's your first fifth, 10th, or whatever, don't stop being educated. Don't stop getting educated because I think too many folks sit on their laurels and think, well, great. I did it. I know how to do it now. Yeah. Well you did that deal. Maybe the next one's going to be slightly different. And so there are things you can learn in the interim that are gonna help make that next subsequent deal even better for you. So I love that.   Emil: I feel dumber now than when I first started. When I first started six months in same thing, I'm laughing, I'm getting checks. I'll just do this 10 times and I'm going to be rolling in dough. And then like reality hits and you learn more and then you're like, wow, I know nothing. The more you learn…   Michael: I think it's because we all started so similarly right? Buy one single family house, your purview is no one can see my hands, but they're very narrow right there. It's a very small scope. And then as we grow and expand and learn and educate ourselves, we realize there's this entire investing world out there that is comprised of so many different things. And we know so little about it. So I think that's a great point. And the old that just further goes to illustrate don't stop getting educated. Can't stop. Won't stop. Right.   Emil: Rockefeller records.   Michael: That's right. That's right. So I'm curious now, Tyler, you, you did that deal a couple of years ago, you know, what are you doing today? Where did you go from there?   Tyler: Yeah. So it's been a journey and I don't want to come across as any type of expert. I'll say that, you know, looking back at my timeline, I've been investing for three and a half years now. So started in my late twenties now in my early thirties, I think there's still a long, long, long ways to go. But I will say within that timeline of three and a half years, my strategies have definitely changed. And so, you know, after that first I learned about, you know, the importance of location and really building that team on the ground. So I bought a second property and other single family house I'm in a better neighborhood with a better team.   I then kind of tiptoed into we'll call it the journey of scaling, scaling up. And so I bought a duplex that was like huge for me. So I went from like a couple single families to a duplex that was me scaling up. I think from my standpoint, my strategy now has changed because like you mentioned earlier, Michael, the education process, there's some things I do now in the real estate space that I was not even aware of, you know, a few years ago. And so I tiptoed around and investing passively in larger multifamily complexes. That's how I started off in the multifamily space was literally, you know, I come in as almost like a silent partner, we'll call it limited partner, they'd say invest in my cash in these larger deals for some equity. And then through that process, learn more about the larger multifamily value of ad space.   And that's where I am now focusing on the value add, but multifamily space, the GP role in these larger apartment complexes. But my portfolio is kind of two prominent we'll call it. We had the cash flowing properties in the Midwest and then the work that my partners and I do in Phoenix on the value of ad side. And like I said, in three and a half years, I've learned so much. And like you said, a meal too, like it's such a massive world out there in real estate. There's so many different techniques and strategies that you can go down into some rabbit holes, but yeah, it's a combination of cash line properties and Midwest plus some value add deals with partners in the, in the, in the Southwest region.   Michael: For those of our listeners who don't know what is that LP GP thing called and what are those roles?   Tyler: The term is syndication, which has good and bad, I think connotations or I guess definitions, but it's really just, it's a partnership between two groups. The general partnership group is generally a group of individuals that are tasked with acquisition of a property lending up financing, building out the business plan, building up the strategy, managing the actual renovation and reposition, and then really making all the decisions on whether to refinance or exit or whatnot. The LP limited partner side is a bunch of investors that come into these deals with some capital and with the intention of really not being involved in the day to day, it's a passive investment. It's like any business that needs, that requires funding and you have the team that's managing everything and then the, like I keep saying this, the silent partners that come in with capital to help fund the project, that's the basic structure of what a syndication is, but it's almost like any type of startup even, or any type of business that needs capital to close. And then you execute a business plan and hopefully pay off, you know, yourself as well as your investors primarily   Emil: I know you're a part of a couple of different indications, your general partner in some where you're more active and your limited partner in some others. Right?   Tyler: Correct.   Emil: How did you decide to get into that? And which one did you start out with? I'm curious.   Tyler: I started out on the LP side after I bought my first two houses and then the duplex, I wanted to experience life, not as a landlord to put it bluntly. There's always going to be some stresses as being a landlord. You know, you're going to have the email from your property manager saying a pipe has burst and we need some money or there's a hole in the roof and we need some money. That's just part of being a landlord. And so I was like, well, you know, at that point in my life too, I was really trying to value my time to one of the biggest things I try and follow right now is kind of, there's a quote out there that says, like start with the end in mind. And I envisioned my life, you know, 40 years down the line where I am selfishly bringing in income without really much active work.   That's kind of what my ideal life looks like right now from a freedom standpoint. And so I was like, let's just try out what this passive investing really is. And I know passive is always going to be a loose term, but I felt that if I could hop into a deal passively and try and learn the business plan and a strategy of what value add is, and then tap into the power of multifamily, which is extremely powerful. We're pretty much doing what people call. Like, I call it the big BRRRR. We're finding a undervalued property, repositioning it through innovation and then bumping rents up that leads to additional cashflow plus increasing the value of the property. So I liked that strategy. So I wanted to kind of hop in there, learn from those people passively and then eventually get into those deals more on the active side events.   Michael: So in syndications, I've only done them locally, kind of with friends and family, never on a big scale, but when you were an LP on your first deal, and you mentioned several times that you learned from the GPS, were they happy to answer your questions as an LP? I mean, how did you go about learning this business as a quote unquote silent partner.   Tyler: It's not like a relationship where you automatically become, you know, the mentee and they take you under your wing. Really what I was just trying to figure out was to slowly get into the game. And that was to begin to just review what a, an offering memorandum looks like, what do these business strategies look like? What do the cost of renovation look like? What are the loan terms like? That was the very first step for me. And as an LP, you get to do that because you're reviewing all of the terms and strategies.   So that was a very, very, very first step of me in education. Now, to your point, Michael, there's no way that these GPS are like, yeah, I'll take, I mean, maybe there's some out there, but I wasn't gonna email them and call in and be like, Hey, can you just tell me exactly what to do and how to do it? They're not going to say yes to that. They have much more important things to do. So really it was just being exposed to the industry and the business plans. That was the very first step. Luckily, you know, after that, the second deal. So the first deal I did was in Louisville as an LP, second deal was in Phoenix, which is now with partners that I work with. So through networking, through connections, through some mutual friends, I was able to kind of position myself in a way where yes, I was an LP, but the GPs actually knew who I was.   And so that led to further opportunity down the line. I'm really just through connection and through building relationships. But yeah. So I think to answer your question, Michael, how do you learn as an LP? There's some you can pick up just by being exposed to the industry, but again, you're not going to have someone take you under your wing most likely   Michael: And hold your hand and say, this is..   Tyler: Exactly.   Michael: Okay. Yeah. Cool. Man, So, you know, I am also a multifamily value add guy. I've always done things on my own for the most part. What is it that you look for in these undervalued deals that are right for syndication? If you had to pick two or three things that like, yep, this is going to make a screaming deal. What are they?   Tyler: The first thing I will say is I am no master of acquisition. That's not my role, but luckily I have partners on the ground that are, you know, educated and know the market much better than I do. But really what you're looking for is, as you mentioned, is undervalued property. And that in the multifamily space can be something that maybe it's mismanaged. Maybe they have a lack of capital to make any renovations. So, you know, the properties that we're acquiring generally are occupied pretty well in our market, which is Phoenix, but they're outdated. And because of that, rents are lower than what they could command. So that's one area where value add is really, you can take advantage of is just an old dilapidated property that maybe mismanaged, maybe you're not even collecting rent properly. There's just so many different areas in where you can find that value add. So to answer your question, I mean, what we're looking for is a specific type of asset that is in need of a cash infusion because the amenities are not the greatest and can definitely attract a better tenant with a higher rent.   Now we're also kind of in areas and neighborhoods where there's actually a lot of class A stuff going up. And so we're, we're buying things that we think we can reposition to be just under class A, to kind of create a little bit of a subclass. So similar amenities, you know, the grant granite countertops, the under Mount sinks, new cabinets, washer, dryer in unit, the dog park, that, all that stuff, right. So we're building a property that's right under class a but more affordable. So we're kind of creating that subclass and that's, I think another way that we're protecting ourselves and being able to draw in that tenant and be able to bring in that rent that we've backed. So yeah. Undervalued property and then creating that subclass is what we do.   Michael: Love it. I do the exact same thing, just on a much smaller scale. That's great.   Tyler: Yeah.   Emil: So you've been on both sides, you acquire properties yourself, you've been part of syndications. Do you have a preference of which one you like, or do you kind of mix and match in both in you kind of see that happening in the future?   Tyler: Yeah. I see myself mixing and matching. Like I mentioned, I have kind of two prong attack of the cashflow, the immediate cashflow in the Midwest right now. And that portfolio is small and I still have some time to keep building that thing up. I, you know, I still am attracted to the immediate cash flow of those properties in the Midwest because the bigger deals are great, but they're a little bit more of a longterm play for me. If anyone is familiar with how this structure works, you know, you, as an LP, you get paid out quarterly as a GP. You know, the big pallet kind of comes at the end when you exit. So that side of my portfolio is more of a longterm play. And when I say longterm, we're talking five to seven years, which really isn't super long term. But I think having a combination of both is really a nice way to diversify having that cashflow from the Midwest or wherever your market is in individual properties that I own personally mixed with the passive income on a syndication and then a big pile. Hopefully once those properties are sold and you exit. So I think ideally I continue to keep attacking those two prongs, keep building those portfolios side-by-side and parallel.   Michael: So Tyler, something we talk a lot about in the restock Academy is about risk adjusted returns and that, you know, in the more risky areas we should anticipate and expect and really demand a higher return and the less risky areas say for investment, we could expect a lower return where you willing to give up a little on the cashflow or on the return side of things, making that transition over to a better neighborhood or a more expensive neighborhood.   Tyler: A hundred percent. Yeah. I don't think I had the specific data on what that would actually look like.   Michael: Sure.   Tyler: But to me, even just from an emotional standpoint, I was like, I'd rather have an investment in a neighborhood with better schools, less crime, you know, community amenities, a grocery store. Like I felt that I was a hundred percent willing to take less cash flow for a better neighborhood, but also on the flip side, generally in a better neighborhood, you might have better appreciation as well.  So it's almost like right to me. Yes. I wanted to get out of that CD class neighborhood, get into that B class, we'll call it on my personal portfolio. I'm already seeing a much better appreciation numbers on that side of things. And it just, there's a lot more comfort in, in, in knowing that you have a property in a, that's not in a war zone, it's not crime ridden. You know, it, it's a good suburban neighborhood with consistent cashflow and, and most importantly, a tenant that's going to pay on time. That to me was a lot more important than the amazing numbers on paper in that war zone. That would cause me more headaches.   Michael: Yeah. You bring up such a great point that, you know, on paper and mathematically and physically, sometimes those properties in the war zone pencil out really well and might even perform really well. But there's the mental health side of this business too. And, and I think that's so important so often gets overlooked of, yeah, I can make a killing over here, but I'm gonna make myself crazy and not sleep at night. And so we often say that there shouldn't be emotion when it comes to investing, but there is sometimes is. And that, you know, based on how it makes us how the investment makes us feel from an owner and operational standpoint, I think does need to get factored into the calculation   Tyler: A hundred percent. Yeah. I'm all on board with buying, you know, it's not the A-class stuff that, not the D class stuff somewhere in that middle, you know, BC area. That to me is the most safe investment, at least in my opinion.   Emil: Right. You see a lot of people, you know, they'll, they'll flash the similar situation, right. 35, 40 K home it's renting for basically the 2% rule. Right. So it will be running for seven to 800 and it's just like, it looks so good on paper, but there's all these other risk factors that you have to adjust for. And you have to have the appetite for like, dealing with messes more often than something in a better class neighborhood. So always important to consider that   Tyler: Nice little segue to there on like just evaluating cap rates too. Like people will flash, Oh, I got, I got a 12 cap, right? It's like that's numbers. But like, if you look at it from a perspective of risk versus reward, that's probably going to be a more risky investment than a six or seven cap, you know? So it's been interesting to kind of learn that through the years to that high return on paper, doesn't always mean a high return in real life.   Michael: Well, and also what's your time worth. If you've got to go spend 20 hours a week dealing with a 12 cap property, or you can spend two hours a month dealing with a six or seven cat property, you have the opportunity now to go buy more, you know, go buy two or three of those six caps and make us the same or even better returns. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such a valid point.   Emil: So we've been ending a lot of these episodes. We used to quick fire questions. We've been transitioning into…   Tyler: Slow fire?   Emil: Think about this for five minutes before you answer. No, it was just a random question that we just kind of riff on.   Tyler: I'm all about that, man.   Emil: I know you travel a bunch. Where's the first place you're going to travel to once all the restrictions are done and like, we can start moving around again.   Tyler: I actually had a flight booked to Paris that I got super cheap and my buddy and I were going to go out there and explore the Dolomites in Northern Italy that is still in the back of our heads. And if, and when travel restrictions kind of open up, I think that's where we might go as the Dolomites in Northern Italy.   Michael: I was just there in January Tyler. And it's unbelievable.   Tyler: Yeah.   Michael: Unbelievable. You can go in the winter. I don't know if you're planning on going in winter or summer, but the ski, like the snow sports, they're the snowboarding skiing, snowshoeing is unbelievable.   Tyler: The plan was to go this summer actually, but just seeing photos of it is like, we were inspired to just find a way to get there. So that would be the first destination.   Emil: I'm looking at pictures now. Cause I had never even heard of it. And it is…   Tyler: I hadn't heard of it till recently as well, but yeah, the Dolomites.   Michael: They get, I think the most sun out of anywhere in Europe, in winter, they have the most like sunny Bluebird days and yeah, just don't have enough good things to say about it. Emil, where are you going to go?   Emil: Well, now that I have a kid makes traveling, you have to think a little bit more. You're like, Hmm, where can we go? That's kid friendly and things like that. Probably a surf trip. I'm thinking Costa Rica, Costa Rica is like one of the more family friendly areas that has really good surf. That's not too far from Southern California. So probably Costa Rica, friends. And I have been talking about doing a trip down there for a while.   Michael: Right on.   Pierre: Michael can we get your synopsis of Costa Rica since you live there as well too?   Tyler: We now have a travel podcast guys!   Emil: Hey this is The Remote Real Estate Investor.   Michael: Bait and switch everybody. Yeah that Costa Rica is awesome, man. It's a super, like you said, I know it's a super easy, but you've been there before, right?   Emil: Yeah, I went there like seven years ago with a buddy. Yeah. Different type of trip.   Michael: The surf is so killer. Yeah. You were also Nicaragua. We talked about that to you, right?   Emil: Yup. Nicaragua's surf is amazing.   Tyler: You've also mentioned Bali to me, Emil as well.   Emil: I sound really cool right now. Cause have you guys been there. I've been there, but yeah, Bali, I need to go back to Bali. It is like surf paradise and there's so many good waves and I will probably watch a video on YouTube three times a week of incredible waves there. And I'm just like drooling. But anyway…   Michael: Drooling at waves.   Emil: That's right. That's right. What about you, Michael? Where are you headed?   Michael: I think I have to go back to Portugal. I'm purchasing some investment property out there and sort of do some paperwork type stuff we need to get back out there.   Emil: No big deal. Just buying a property in another country.   Tyler: Are you going the Airbnb route on that.   Michael: Yeah. So it's the Airbnb it's like professionally managed, but actually we're applying for what's called the golden visa so we can get our permanent residency status and ultimately citizenship out there as well to be able to live and work and travel in the EU without needing…   Tyler: Awesome stuff.   Michael: Yeah. So we're pretty pumped on that.   Tyler: My buddies living in Portugal right now and he's just been working abroad for the last year. He did, he actually did Costa Rica for a while and then just flew to Portugal. And he's, he's actually writing a book right now about working from, uh, working abroad.   Michael: That's awesome.   Tyler: I'll connect you guys with him.   Michael: That would be great. That's something that I did last year too, is a lot of fun. I've actually been to Costa Rica, Latin American then all over Europe. Portugal also has amazing surf, has amazing, awesome waves. Pierre, where are you headed, man?   Pierre: I was thinking to go to Mexico, but I'm out of maple syrup. So I might have to go up to Canada.   Michael: Get up to Canada.   Pierre: Yeah.   Emil: Can't live without that maple syrup.   Pierre: No man.   Michael: It's a lifeblood.   Pierre: It really is.   Tyler: I mean, you even have a piece of bark on your wall back there, it's like yeah.   Emil: It's probably a good spot for us to end this one. Tell her before we let you go. Where is a good place that people can get in touch with you? Maybe ask you some questions.   Tyler: My website is jump in real estate.com. You can find my contact info. They're always happy to hop on a phone call or even just exchange emails with anyone really, really enjoy chatting with people like yourselves. And I'm sure your listeners as well. So I just love talking to real estate.   Michael: Awesome. And Tyler if someone wanted to be an LP and one of your syndications is your website the best place for them to get in touch with you regarding that type of stuff as well?   Tyler: Yeah, I would say that's probably the main route I'd want people to kind of route to me is the website. So jumpinrealestate.com. There's an ask Tyler tab. You can just find my contact info there and, or follow me on Twitter at jumpinRE very active on that, which I talked to Emil and Michael pretty much daily on.   Emil: Yes, follow Tyler on Twitter. Very good follow. Awesome man. Thanks again so much. Really appreciate you coming on.   Tyler: Thanks.   Michael: This was so awesome.   Tyler: Definitely. Thank you both.   Emil: All right, so that's our episode. Thanks again, everyone for tuning in. Before you go and make sure you subscribe to the podcast, you get an update every time we release a new episode and let us know what you think of the show. We're always looking for feedback, leave us a review. Let us know you think what you want to see more of maybe what you want to see less of and we'll catch you in next week's episode. Happy investing!  

Cash-flow forecasting can be the key to running, building, and eventually selling your e-commerce business. Today's guest is an accountant and successful business builder who helps owners run their businesses with successful financial results. Aside from traditional accounting, his firm offers fractional CFO services to his clients. As we have said many times here on the podcast, bookkeeping is not something business owners should do without an expert. Today we are talking to accounting expert Tyler Jeffcoat. Tyler built and sold a  healthcare company and has experienced the acquisition process firsthand. In building his current business, Seller Accountant, he made sure that his focus was razor sharp on what he could offer to clients in order to deliver top results. Episode Highlights: How Tyler's fractional services work for the clients. How his service cost is offset by the value why it's less expensive than inhouse. Cash-flow forecasting and how it helps owners with profitability Ways operation data plays into the full forecast. The impact of not forecasting. Refinancing and SBA lending as an option in a moment of need. The importance of SKU grading to keep on top of product performance. The difference between cash and accrual accounting Tools that can help the layman forecast on his own. Why you need to track your numbers on an inventory value. The benefit of outsourcing while focusing on core expertise. Transcription: Mark: So Joe I'm normally not a big advocate of business but I'm becoming more and more of one and in the entrepreneurial community people always ask what book are you reading now and I'm usually thinking well it was actually on World War II or some other kind of obscure topic. Because when I'm off of work I like to be off of work. But this past year I picked up a few different business books based on some recommendations. And one that I read that I would recommend to anybody is Shoe Dog by Phil Knight; the founder of Nike. And I don't want to give away a lot of secrets with this book because honestly, it's a great read; it reads more of like just a novel or story of how he started Nike but one of the things that really resonated with me specifically because we deal with so many people that have Amazon businesses was how long Nike had problems with cash flow and how long that they were living on the float. And they were living on a very large float where they were writing checks that weren't in the bank account yet and they were counting on that money being in there. It's the nature of any growing business especially a physical product business is that the cash flow comes in, you reinvest in the product, you keep growing at a rapid rate. It can be really hard to manage that cash flow. And I know that we talked to Scott Dietz a few weeks ago on forecasting but forecasting doesn't really matter if you don't have any cash in the bank and you're closing the loop on this or kind of continuing this conversation today with Tyler Jefcoat about cash flow forecasting. Joe: Yeah Tyler and I have been working together off and on with a variety of different clients. Tyler owns Seller Accountant and he's just a smart guy. He's built his own company, sold it, and then started any commerce bookkeeping company specifically focused for the most part on his own businesses. Mark: Is that a phone I hear in the background? Joe: No, that was not a phone at all. No. Mark: I figured that you're so busy people are calling you all the time. Joe: No, that's my wife actually. Sorry folks. Sorry. Tyler, yes but the really cool thing about what Tyler does is cash flow forecasting, right? So he does fractional CFO services on top of is bookkeeping services and only for his own clients. And he does in the different levels. He does monthly reviews with some, quarterly reviews of some, and then gets into deeper reviews with others. But the cash flow forecasting model that he went over and shared with me I saw it on another video in a webinar that he did and then I had him show it to me and then he's sharing it in the show notes of this podcast. It's a cash flow model along with the video that talks about it and I know going back to my e-commerce days before I sold I did that; I did the float just like Phil Knight, a little smaller level of course. Mark: But just like Phil Knight. Joe: Just like Phil Knight, but it was the same thing. You are paying for that inventory with a credit card or you're just playing the flow and it's ridiculous. Fortunately for me, I didn't have a big staff but those that are growing beyond that solopreneur aspect and they have to worry about payroll and things of that nature I think it's really, really important to focus on cash flow. So Tyler goes over that quite a bit here and the links in the show notes will help anybody that's having issues in that area. Mark: These are fantastic tools to put in our war chest of things that we can use as business owners to be able to plan the growth of our businesses. So forecasting is something I've been skeptical in the past. Again the conversation with Scott Dietz and my experience with forecasting through his company has really turned me around to this and now I'm super excited to see this because again cash flow forecasting might be one of the most important things in a business as it's growing. Joe: It's important but what else is important? I've got to call my wife back so let's go to the podcast. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today well I ranted in the intro with Mark about bookkeeping. I've talked to at least 5,000 entrepreneurs over the last seven years and the vast majority of those when it comes to bookkeeping they say I got this and the reality is they don't. So we've got an expert on the podcast here, Tyler Jefcoat from the Seller Accountant. Tyler, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Tyler: Thanks, Joe. Thanks for having me. Joe: I could rant and rave for hours on time about this because it's the number one reason people don't sell their businesses or sell them for a heck of a lot less. Somebody said to me the other day Tyler that when they think about their P&Ls they bleed from their eyeballs and I think that sums it up for how a lot of people feel. Alright so as you know on this podcast we don't do fancy intros, we want to hear from you so tell us about yourself and your business. Tyler: Yeah, well thanks again for having me. My company is Seller Accountant. I'm coming at this as a guy who sold a health care company about two years ago. We had a good run; zero to a hundred employees in about four years and I was a minority guy and I went through the M&A process and it was interesting. So as we built this accounting firm; I'm an accountant, we really built it around two ideas, Joe. One was we wanted to have a very vertical focus so we only do e-commerce and the second thing is that we want to focus on not just the price of admission of just having clean books but having the ability to use data to drive profitability. So I think that's why you and I have resonated with each other so well was I want to partner with brokers that really have the best interest of clients at heart and your clients all have the same issues which is we got to have investor great books so we can go to market and so yeah man it's great to be here. Joe: Cool. Everybody that's listening knows how I do feel about the books but I want to go beyond what you do at Seller Accountant. You manage people's books, you do an incredible job with that, do you streamline it? It's not expensive. It's much better for their bottom line than if they had an in-house bookkeeper. There's no question that that math works but let's talk about some of the additional services you do. I saw a video where you talked about your fractional CFO services, where you talked about cash flow analysis, Cost of Goods Sold analysis and some of those things. What are the top two or three things that you focus on with clients on I guess is your fractional CFO services that you do that for? Tyler: It is and is still part of Seller Accountant but in addition to just doing the bookkeeping each month for a bunch of Amazon and other e-commerce sellers we provide a fractional CFO service. And so I think what makes it powerful Joe is that we're just crazy focused; again we're crazy focused, my eyes don't blink when I look at a P&L for e-commerce but I do it all day long. And so our ability to step into somebody's business and see things differently because we look at it kind of like you do Joe honestly; you're looking at P&Ls constantly also but then focus on kind of the big things on a macro level. How does a seller really understand how their sales channels are performing over time? So that kind of goes back to the visibility of the book but it's more important than that, it's understanding okay, is Amazon the right channel for me to focus on versus Shopify? That's kind of one of the big discussions. And then we tend to the other kind of macro discussion as you allude to is around cash flow. This is a cash hungry business that we run; this e-commerce retail and a lot of the sellers tend to be undercapitalized meaning they're not coming to the table with 2 million dollars in free cash to just dump in inventory. And so our ability to understand not just what we think our sales are going to be next year but what we think our actual cost are going to be related to inventory when we're going to have to spend that money, that's critical. And so that's a discussion we have with our clients and then honestly just understand the profitability of our different product lines and SKUs. Those are areas where we can really help our clients not just know what the bottom line is for a given month but help them get the data they need to make better decisions as a CEO. Joe: And you do this as part of the fractional CFO services. You meet with these clients once a month after you review their P&Ls and you do a deeper dive. Are there other different levels of fractional CFO services where you're spending more time with some than others; how does it work? Tyler: Yeah there are and at this point, most of our CFO clients are bookkeeping clients that have chosen to layer on the CFO service. The reason for that is it is very challenging for me to add a lot of value efficiently for you if I don't understand your books and you just have a really nice way of doing the books. So yes they can choose to have quarterly calls. We have some that will meet even less frequently but it's basically normally quarterly or monthly. And we have some things in the pipeline that may allow us to just generate some value and it'd be a little bit less can you get on Tyler's calendar because I think that can be something that can be prohibitive. But at this point, we've got a great monthly service, a great quarterly service, and I think maybe it'll be somewhere around the neighborhood of 70 million dollars in e-commerce sales that I'm responsible for; me and my team for just the CFO side of it this year. And so it gives us an update that we can speak intelligently about what's happening in the business. Joe: You must be very expensive then, yes? Tyler: Oh man we're so expensive, yeah. No, you know what I mean. I would say we provide extreme value to our clients. And I would just say this we're not cheap; I don't want to be cheap, you want the provider that you can partner with us providing superior value. But I will say this we are way less expensive than actually trying to hire somebody. And if we can generate the kind of value that makes your business grow or allows you to get maybe a better multiple when you go to market in a year I don't think we're charging nearly enough for that to be honest with you and I love it, man. This is the fun part of the business; it's really understanding how to help business owners make money. How do we actually turn this pile of work into a profitable business? And so for me, this is kind of what gets me out of bed. So it's really I'm an accountant, of course, it's about money; we want to make a living but this is a part of the business I'm passionate about. Joe: Well let's talk about some of those individual things you do as the fractional CFO provider. I saw a cash flow forecasting video that you did. This is an enormous problem for e-commerce business owners and a lot of will just go the way of an Amazon loan at 14, 15%. I guess it's lower when you do the math. But talk to us about the cash flow forecasting that you do for these clients and how that helps them in terms of profitability. Tyler: Yeah. So when it comes to cash flow forecasting I think where most entrepreneurs stop is they take the time to open a spreadsheet and say what do I think my sales are going to be in the next six months? By the way, I would caution you there, if you ever run a forecast in the future of your business and every month in the future is way more profitable than your last six months of them, there's a good chance that you are kind of suffering from optimism that happens. All of us entrepreneurs we love running our businesses and we're like just tomorrow we're going to make money, now next month that's going to be wildly profitable. Joe: You're delusional. We know that after doing this for so long that there is great years and bad years. Tyler: You may run into a P&L and somebody hasn't made money in a year and they're like but guess what Joe tomorrow we're going to make money. And so my encouragement is to go ahead and be honest with yourself about how your business is performing and take a minute to say okay based on our seasonality, based on the products we're going to launch; as the actual owner of these e-commerce businesses you guys are in the best position to guess what your sales are going to be next year and put them in a spreadsheet Expected Sales, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And then if you look at your historical data you can say okay our cost of goods sold, our margins have tended to be at a certain level. And so most entrepreneurs are pretty good at building a forecast around what their operation is going to generate. We kind of know what our overhead is. We kind of know what our advertising budget is going to be. We know if our rent's going to go up next year. And so you got to do that work but a lot of entrepreneurs stop there and you can't stop there. Because of the impact of debt and the impact of inventory and the impact frankly of taxes you need to take that operational data and then work it into a full cash flow forecast for maybe the next year or the next six months. And so the way we do it is we take that baseline info that I just mentioned; how much profit are you expecting your operation to generate each month over the next six months or a year. Okay, great, now tell us what your loan payments are going to be, what's the cash coming out of your business for; for that Amazon loan or for your SBA loan or for your line of credit. Okay great, let's take that into account each month and then inventory forecasting can be kind of tricky. The more I thought about this I think it just needs to be simple. You have an average amount of days that it takes you to; you're going to issue a PO and you're going to get your container sent from China or wherever you're getting your goods. And so if I have forecasted that in April I'm going to have $30,000 in cost of goods sold then I'm going to have to pay for that $30,000 in inventory probably about 90 days before that. And so if you know what the waiting times are in your inventory you can use your forecast that you just did for your quote-unquote P&L; your profit and loss to basically guess okay I'm going to need to have that 30 grand in the bank in January so that it's ready to sell in April. And I mean they're going to have to fund that inventory purchase with some kind of great terms with the supplier or I'm going to have to have a loan, I'm going to have cash in the bank. And so what I advise the clients to do is to kind of what are my inventory purchases going to be? This is not a surprise. It's going to take a few months to fulfill it. Let's get that on this cash flow picture and then the other thing that you might consider is if there's going to be any owner distributions including your CPA may have you take a tax distribution once a quarter to keep Uncle Sam happy. And so this all goes together; your operations, your financing activities, your inventory, and then lastly the investing kind of from your owners and it's going to give you; it's not uncommon to have a picture where you expected to make money in the month of January, on paper you have profit but because of your debt payments or because of your purchases of future inventory your cash flow is actually negative for that same month. And so we just blew a spreadsheet; in fact, I'm glad to share it with you. I just have it in a Google Sheet here where we try to understand the impact of all of those factors on cash flow. So if there's going to be a negative on the sheet I knew it now instead of it being an emergency. Joe: We'll link that up so people can use it and try it themselves and then reach out to you for help if they need it. But what's the impact? You talked about good money at good rates versus bad money at bad rates. So what's the negative impact if they didn't do the forecasts and they come up against the month of January and they need to get a loan somewhere; what do you see people do and what's the drawback of having little to no notice of it? Tyler: Yeah. So there's two major impacts. One is if I know that I'm going to run out of cash in six months I can make two important adjustments that I don't have the luxury of making if I'm right on top of that shortfall. So if I've got six months I can cut expenses. If I need to actually lower some overhead if I need to renegotiate my rent if I need to do anything if I need to slow down if I need to go to my suppliers and renegotiate those payment terms. I've got some internal leverage. In other words, I know how important it is to me because I know I'm out of money say in April if I don't figure this out now. The second thing is if I know I'm going to run out of cash in four to six months I've bought myself a bunch of time to go find the right kind of loan if I have to pick up some debt on the balance sheet. And just as you alluded to I've got six months and have a pretty good business I might be able to get through SBA underwriting, I might be able to get all sorts of favorable lending options but if I wake up and realize oh crud tomorrow I'm out of money I don't have a lot of options. I'm going to take whatever money is going to fund me in the next week. And I would say that's where a lot of sellers get in trouble. They haven't forecasted effectively and so now they're out of money. They've got to fulfill that PO tomorrow and so now they're in a bind where how are they going to get stuff on the shelves to be able to sell it. And so yeah that's what I would say to that. Joe: So on the SBA underwriting, if somebody owns an e-commerce business and they've got good financials, they've owned it for a while and they use services like yours you're seeing them able to go out and get SBA financing to help with cash flow of their current business. Tyler: Yeah I think there's; I don't know that I've seen; I've seen more SBA lending when the deals come together for an actual exit but I will say this if you have a couple of years of good financials and you're carrying some debt I've definitely seen some of our clients refinance other lines of credit using SBA lending once they have a couple of years of good financial history. Joe: That makes sense. Tyler: You can go through the underwriting and what ends up happening is the bank has a much lower risk profile because the SBA; the government is going to back a certain percentage of that loan. And so it's always going to be your best terms, your best interest rate; the underwriting is a bit of a pain but again if you have six months you can get through that process and explore that as an option instead of having to take whatever emergency lending process. Joe: Yeah for those that don't understand the terms on the SBA lending it's generally 10 years and the interest rate is somewhere between 5 ½ to 8 ½%. Compare that to an Amazon loan where the term is somewhere between 14 and 15%; I'm sorry the interest rate and the term is generally 12 months. They take it out of your account as they make deposits. Tyler: And I've seen Amazon be as high as 19, 20 percent and they will underwrite it down to 11 but it never gets anywhere close to touching the SBA. Joe: Yeah, it's incredibly convenient. There's no question about it but there's a pretty steep cost that comes along with it. Tyler: The only one that steeper is when you have to get more of what's called like a payday funding option maybe like a Payability; nothing wrong. It's a good service in the right context but those cost capital numbers end up getting up in the 25, 30% range if you're not careful and that can really crush your business. Joe: Okay, cash flow taking, money off the table, these things are what keep entrepreneurs up at night so I love the fact that you help them with that and we'll share that in the show notes. Let's jump on to something that I think is incredibly important when we talk to people about selling their business. Well ultimately we're going to help them when they're ready but we'd prefer to talk to them 12 to 18 months in advance so that they're working with someone like you in order to prepare the best exit possible. And we often talk to them about renegotiating their cost of goods sold, focusing in on those inventories that are hero SKUs and those that are just okay. We always say you can break even doing nothing so why bother but often when it looks like they're breaking even they lose money. You help them focus in through your fractional CFO services on hero SKUs, cost of goods sold, things of that nature; yes? Tyler: Yeah I think something that's really important whether you have a fractional CFO or you do it yourself, it's extremely important to do a SKU grading. So I don't even care if you have a thousand skews you have to have some kind of a system for understanding which product lines are successful and which ones are losers. Which ones are the heroes like you said Joe, which ones are duds? And I have been shocked; I've been continually shocked as we do these analyses for clients to see that a guy's favorite SKU is taking them like an 80% advertising budget to move the SKU. Joe: That doesn't sound profitable. Yeah. Tyler: No, that's bad. Yeah. And just in case you're wondering, an 80% advertising budget is terrible. But they didn't know that because it's buried in this entire pile of SKUs and so it's extremely important to understand at least occasionally how each of your products is performing so that you can support the good ones, renegotiate the bad ones, or kill them. Joe: Yeah. So revenue insanity profit; no revenue is vanity, profit is sanity. So it gets down to understanding your profit and loss statements, digging into revenue by SKU, profit by SKU. I get most people don't get this. A lot of people that I work with that come across like I did early on I tell people openly I fell asleep in accounting class in college. I've since had to adapt and learn and now I understand it very, very well. But most people don't understand the simple difference between cash and accrual accounting and that when you're selling a business the books need to be presented on an accrual basis. Can you describe the difference between the two in layman's terms? That's the challenge; layman's terms. Tyler: Sure. So simply put if you have cash going out of your business, say you're buying inventory to actually stroke the check and you have a deposit coming into your business say the deposit from Amazon and you book that sale when the cash hits your account and you book that expense when you pay the money that's called cash basis accounting. And from a compliance tax standpoint, for most small businesses that is acceptable. But here's the problem and you got anyone who's looked at their P&L and saw a negative gross profit for a month. When you look at there and say why did I sell $100,00 this month but all of a sudden had $200,000 of inventory expenses? That doesn't make any rational sense. The reason is that you book the entire inventory the day you stroke the check instead of having the inventory asset and expensing it slowly as you sell the goods. And so in an accrual accounting method, you are on a quest to attach the sales dollar to the expenses that are associated with that dollar. So if I sold; let's just use that same number, if I sold $100,000 on Amazon in November I want to know how much it actually cost me; what the actual inventory expense for those units were that I sold in that month. And so you can kind of tell me and hear me say it's a little more difficult. Getting good accrual books takes a little bit more work. You have to deal with receivables. You've got to book things a little bit more sophisticatedly but it's the only way to be able to answer the question Joe did I make money last month? Because if you're doing it on a cash basis you really have no idea. You know when you've made your investments but you don't actually know whether your business is profitable unless you have an accrual system. Joe: And is that something that; I know it's hard to set up in Quick Books online but what do people have to have? Their landed cost of goods sold or their cost of goods sold the freight might be separate in your P&Ls; is it something that a layman could set up and figure out and flip to or does it really take a tremendous amount of experience like you have? Tyler: Well it could. I mean I don't want to; let me just say it's worth the effort. I will say this for everyone who's listening to this to this podcast if you haven't explored a tool called A2A accounting; literally the letter A, the number 2, the letter A. So A2A Accounting, I think it's A2Aaccounting.com that is a tool that lets you kind of pre map Amazon journal entries and it makes doing the accruals a lot easier. Well, what makes e-commerce so challenging is that Amazon pays us every 14 days normally and some of those sales might have happened in one month but I'm getting the entire paycheck from Amazon in the next month. And so I would say Joe yes normally having somebody that really understands e-commerce accounting is very helpful but for smaller sellers or sellers who don't have the budget to hire a team like mine it's worth learning how to do it and it's worth trying to understand; you mentioned the term landed cost of goods sold if I spend $100,000 on inventory, I've stroke the check, I've sent the wire, I have that inventory now, it's really important that I try to understand what that fully landed value is per unit. So let's say I bought a thousand of a particular SKU I can't just say I spent $100,000 divided by 1,000 so I've got basically was that a dollar SKU, right? It doesn't work that way. Joe: Because you pay the extra 10 cents to ship each individual unit; yeah. Tyler: Yeah you got shipping, tariffs, duties, everything else you need to just do the math. Make sure you have a spreadsheet; call it kind of a Master SKU Spreadsheet and understand what it really costs you per unit to get your product to the customer. And that's probably one of the biggest keys to understand. Joe: And let me just put some reality to this in terms of the why. Look anybody out there listening is like why the hell do I need to do that? The reason is because eventually, you're going to sell your business. You're going to get bought out. You're going to sell it to a partner. You and your partner are going to get in a fight and you're going to want to move in different directions. Or you own it with your wife or husband and you're going to get a divorce or at least half of you are. Or you're going to die. It's all going to happen eventually so you need to have your numbers on an accrual basis because when you sell your physical products e-commerce business you're going to get paid a multiple of your seller's discretionary earnings plus the landed cost of good sellable inventory on hand at the time of closing. Landed. If you're not tracking that landed figure and you're paying an extra 50 cents per unit you could be losing tens of thousands of dollars in inventory value at the sale. The other thing in terms of cash versus accrual and doing it yourself versus hiring somebody like Tyler is that if you're off by a couple of percentage points; let's just say that you're spending a million dollars a year in revenue. It's not a small business, it's a sizable one. And I've talked to these people that do this and have in-house bookkeepers and I'll give you some math on why you shouldn't admit it but if you're off by 2% on a million bucks that's $2,000 right? That's not right; that's $20,000 that you're off by. Your business is probably sizable selling it 4, 4 ½ times that would mean that your numbers; your profit, your discretionary earnings are off by $20,000. The value of your business is $80,000 off if you're a four-time multiple. So you're either overpricing the business by 80,000 because you overestimated or underestimated your cost of goods sold or worse yet you're undervaluing your business because you're off by 2% and your business is worth $80,000 more than you've got it listed for. These things matter. You worked so damn hard on driving more revenue and looking at your bottom line. But if you don't get the details right like this you're just wasting a whole bunch of money. Okay, that's my momentary rant now I'm going to go into another one. The services that you provide Tyler and there are others out there like you that's just like there's other brokers out there besides Quiet Light; it is what it is but I talked to somebody last week, they spent $24,000 a year on an in-house bookkeeper just out of college that does everything the CPA tells her to do. The numbers are all wrong. They're recording deposits; it was on a cash basis, it was completely and utterly incorrect. And this person thought they were doing something like 1.2 million in discretionary earnings, it really was about 800,000. If they fired the bookkeeper; we'll do the quick math for everybody, fire your bookkeeper is my message, $24,000 a year, hire somebody that does the e-commerce bookkeeping like Tyler and Seller Accountant, even if it's let's call it 600 bucks a month and you're doing an all-encompassing service it's only $7,200 a year, right? So 24,000 minus the 7,200, it's $16,800 in annual savings to the bottom line numbers of your business. If your business is worth four times that adds $67,000 to the list price of your business when you eventually sell it. It's simple and logical math and you don't have an HR problem anymore; you don't have that bookkeeper in-house, you've got somebody like Tyler helping you who's a Bulldogs fan by the way. For those watching the video, stand up just a little bit; what's that logo on your shirt say? Tyler: Man I'm a University of Georgia guy. I'm across the street from the campus here in Athens and Double Dog. I have my MBA and accounting degree here. Joe,  I will say this it really is it's not even so much what you could pay per hour because, to be honest with you the client that's doing a million in discretionary earnings is unlikely to be 600 bucks a month for any service even me if we're getting it done right. But the reality is that if you're paying someone your full-time salary; I know this when I had a company with 100 employees. We always had somebody sitting around. If you're going to carry someone you're always having to get them at a rate where you can't use their full capacity or frankly if you're using your full capacity you got to hire somebody else. And so it's inefficient because; and there are some businesses that need to have a full-time controller. I think if you're doing 15 million a year in revenue you probably need to have a high-end controller on your staff. At that point, that's a six-figure job you're looking to hire for. I think the issue that the seller may be that you're describing would come across is not only are they spending the 24,000; even if they paid me the same amount to do it it's actually going to be done correct and when I go to market those books are going to be stated in accrual basis and they're going to have everything the way they want it. And we can scale with them without them having to hire an entire new employee. So I think that really is a big benefit unless you are; this is what I've learned in general. And this is every business I've worked in or own, I want to make sure that I inhouse my core competency; whatever my competitive advantage is I'm going to make sure that I have teammates that allow me to perpetuate that competitive advantage. Anything that isn't my strength I want to find someone that that is their strength; someone that can do it more efficiently and can do it better than I can. I'm not a broker if I need a broker I want to go to someone like Joe that gets the broker business and can do it more efficiently I'm going to pay Joe but I'm going to make a lot of mistakes and lose a lot more money if I try to do it myself. It's really the same with accounting or PPC or anything else. I'm a big believer. That's what my dad always told me. It's just spend your time where you're making your money. I want to get so focused that I can be the best in the world at something and then I want to outsource as much as I can so that I can be better at my core rather than trying to fix my errors all the time and fix my screw-ups and that kind of thing. Joe: I think that's incredibly well said. I don't have a whole lot to add to that. I think it's just brilliant. I think it's a great business methodology and mindset and it's what everybody should be adopting. Tyler, how do the audience members learn more about your services? Tyler: Yeah so thanks again for having me, Joe. So SellerAccountant.com is our website. You can learn more about our services there. Feel free to reach out to us. We'd love to have a discussion with you. And yes it's been a pleasure to being on the show. Joe: And you're going to share that cash flow forecasting spreadsheet. We'll put that in the show notes so everybody can do their own numbers and if it's confusing reach out to Tyler he'd be there to help you. Thanks for the honor man, I appreciate it. Tyler: You got it. Links and Resources: Tyler's Wedsite A2X Accounting Cash flow forecasting spreadsheet

The end of 2019 has arrived. Let's recap Path of Exile through 2019 and end with a bang! Giveaway information:Twitter Tweet to RetweetReddit Post for Episode 6Join the party! Check out our website for more episodes and be sure to follow us on Twitter.www.foreverexiled.comTwitter @ForeverExiled82Path of Exile WebsiteWrecker of Days Builds ListFull Transcript of Episode:Justin: Welcome to forever Exiled. The Path of Exile podcast. This is technically Episode six, but it's going to be our bonus. New Year's Eve and Day episode. I am one of your host, Justin a k a. TagzTyler: and I'm Tyler Wrecker of Days.Justin: Make sure you check out the rest of this episode right up until the end because we may have a sexy giveaway coming up anyway. Ty, how are you doing? Well, how are you? Good. So this is gonna be our our extra bonus for fun. Super awesome. Episode six I agree. So, uh, path of exile G just released today their best of 2019 video, which was awesome. If you haven't checked it out, make sure you watch it. Maybe we'll put a link in the show notes just so you can find it. I think they're coming up with some more information on there. Accomplishments and bragging tomorrow, which is New Year's Eve will be tomorrow. So hopefully will be out there and live with everybody at the same time. So, yeah, let's let's ah, let's jump into it. So we figured it'd be kind of fun to look back a year at what grinding gear games development plan for 2019 was and assuming like we will continue this for the next 15 or 16 years, we'll be able to do this. We'll be able to do this at the end of each year and kind of see what was announced the previous year and sort of where things went from there. So we've got the development plan for 2019 from grinding gear games last year. 2019. Here's what they say. 2019 will see the release of four significant Path of Exile updates in the form of 3.6 and March 3.7 in June, 3.8 in September and 3.9 in December. These releases will follow the formula we have been using over the last few years, introducing a challenge league, various expansion features, new character, skill, archetypes to play, and masses of other fixes and quality of life improvementsTyler: while working on the 2019 updates. We also hope to make significant progress on the four point Omega expansion, which we now know as path of exile, too likely coming sometime in 2020. For those unfamiliar with our version numbering system, Once we've released Update 3.9, we are forced to number the next 14 point. Oh, for example, the version after 3.9 and March is 3.10 as we do not expect to release 4.0 in the first part of next year. Development of 4.0 is a massive task that is absolutely affected by our desire to continue to release sizable leagues at our usual pace. So we're taking our time and making sure it's ready before we decide on a release date. 20Justin: nine. Teen culminates in the Exile Con Fan convention in November, where we can announce and demonstrate December's 3.9 expansion, as well as a small preview of 4.0, this convention takes place approximately 2 to 3 weeks before the 3.9 release, so you should be able to play a near final build at the show. We expect to put Tickets are for sale in the next couple of weeks.Tyler: We're also putting the finishing touches on the PlayStation four version of Path of Exelon should be able to announce a release date in the near future. It's going to be a busy year.Justin: So that was the development plan for 2019 Fergie and I will say I think they hit all of them. They nailed it. Yeah, I think they did. And they were very good at their ah, super chilled idea of what four point I was going to be in comparison to what we found out November. So we're going to get to that part sort of Indian. Let's let's break down the league's because we've had now a year we've had were in the fourth league for this this year. So it's obviously three have been completed. Ones very, very new. So let's let's jump through each of them. So we'll go 3.63 point six was the synthesis leak.Tyler: Mmm. Do you rember what you bladeJustin: synthesis for me Now? I I don't entirely know. I do remember playing arc totems. Ah, for quite a bit of it, just because so synthesis was a huge cast early there were that was the league of ah, huge changes to spells and just casting in general, mainly kind of got kicked a little bit and just was left alone. But casting was a big one So for me, my main one was, uh, was arc totems and it actually carried me. I think I played it quite a bit. Brill League. And I think that one took me to 97 or so. I think ITyler: lied Well, and I laughed and I laughed. That was the one league where you are. Totems was just storing everything. You could have done it with your eyes closed. You're having a great time. And you bailed on it to make something else because you felt like it was too slow. And you're flying. I mean, it was like a split second. I couldn't even hit like the start stop button fast enough to to say how fast you were laying your total's. But it was too slow for you. And so you respect?Justin: Yeah, I don't remember. I don't remember too much what I did after that. Only because that that was a big league for me. Just in currency. I had the I can't remember the name of it, but the Mir dhe shield that I ended up selling for I remember selling all of my ark totem gear for I don't know, 60 or 70 exults and just playing around and going crazy and then not carrying after that point. What did you play them? You remember?Tyler: Uh, I don't remember playing it, but I had it written down. It was how I do my lists of characters. My 3.6 build was an R f character. Okay, remember playing it, but I'm sure it did. Great.Justin: Nice. So, synthesis. It was not a great release. So it wasn't. Ah, it wasn't my favorite. While we can talk about favorite ones later. But the system wasTyler: confusing. Yeah, and they're confusing.Justin: And there's not a whole lot of it left in theTyler: game. No, no, it definitely went by the wayside in terms of how it could fit into the current court game. Um, you barely ever see. It really only exists for as I've seen it. Um, it only exists in Zana maps. When you see her in a map, you could have a synthesis map as one of your options. And that's really the only way that I've come across it. Naturally. I don't remember any other way that they've tried to infuse it, but that's that's it. I remember. Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was just gonna say I remember it being a league. That was as as much effort as they put into it. I remember it being a leak, that I was completely happy to just skip the content, just go right past whoever was that was doing all the since this stuff and I just play the map and do the atlas. Normally,Justin: the idea behind it when it was first announced seemed really cool to me. The way it actually played out, I found overwhelmingly confusing. It was really difficult to plan out the I don't even know what you would call it. The map type thing that they had. I didn't find it. There were so many issues where ah ah, block the memory segments. Yeah, an area would, like, clear out for some reason, Or you couldn't. I just didn't like how that function work. There was way too much extra added to the game. And can you even go there? Can you see? What was it called? The nexus, I think. Yeah. I think that's what it was called. Can you still together? IsTyler: every Texas not that I know of? No, I don't think you can get the pieces of memory anymore, but you can still get synthesized items. That cannon all within a synthesized map.Justin: Yeah, it was It was It was a I don't know what the word is that it was ah, valiant attempt to try and make something new to the game. But to me, it was way, way, way, way too much. It was like, what was the one in the previous year with the the boards and all the lines and everything that would, uh, go between all of the bosses? It was the one with the change of the craft.Tyler: Um oh, syndicate. No, no, it's not called syndicate. I was calling in to getJustin: the mail. It was to me, it was like that. It was adding way too much of the game, and I just wanted to kill stuff, but so that actually kind of leads into legion. So that was synthesis. It was a fun league, but I did not touch the league mechanics almost atTyler: all. It's It's one of its unique, I think since I've started playing, which was in the early two's, um, it was unique in the sense that there's a lot of the times where they have to make a lot of changes. Right? Remember with synthesis, they had that blue stuff that would be coming in, and it would really start to cave in on us what it was speed game, right? So they had to modify it a lot. And even though this was now 2018 but you mentioned betrayal, they modified betrayal a lot to try and balance it for people that were leveling cleared two people that like Game and so that happens in a lot of leagues, and that's just how it goes. But it was one of those leagues where this bite all the changes that they made to try and balance it properly so that it could be playable. It was the mechanic itself that held a lot of people. That, and just matching the memory fragments, being able to store the fragments, figuring out how they work to the best ability was from what I found from what I read. From what I remember, that was the hardest part about the league.Justin: I had a blast in the league, but I did not enjoy the league mechanic. I loved the castor changes. I love the you know the skill reworks. I really, really liked a lot of the changes that they made for game play, but I did not like the guy just didn't enjoy the synthesis side of of the league. But are we good with 3.6? Yeah, let's move on. So 3.6 goes through, 3.7 comes out in. That's legion. And now legion. I think one of my favorite things about legion the Legion, was it was dummy proof. It was relatively simple. It was very much breach ish. Not obviously the same exactly is breach. But the idea that you would just come across them while you play it. You could do them while you were in a map or in his own, and it didn't require you to really have to do much else. You got to fight additional mobs, and there was obviously other stuff that could happen within that you know how the league was set up. But the overall way that it worked was super simple. Super simple.Tyler: Yeah, You see it in the map, you hit the button, you just kill as much as you can. Yeah. Maybe they'll kill you if you unlock too much there. Too tough. Or maybe you killed them all. And then you move on, you pick up your loot, you keep going. And I loved it. Absolutely loved it.Justin: Yeah. And then so with that league, they also came up with a huge Malay rework, which wasTyler: awesome, especially because the amount of crying melee fans did in 3.6 for the castor league. It was really nice toe. Have those wines dissipate in 3.7? Yeah, andJustin: and while it was a really, really cool mainly rework, which has really a lot of that stuff even now it's still very useful to Malay builds. A lot of the changes that they made are still super appreciated. It also became literally the cyclone leak. It did. It did. And because of the way that legion worked, I loved the legion part where you would just you'd find it in a map, click it, you'd break a bunch of stuff. You kill a bunch of guys and you keep moving on. I wasn't a huge fan of the endgame side of it where you would go to that that I can't remember what it was called the other area. And you could, you know, based on how many you wanted to do, was the domain of the timeless conflict. Look at you. Ah, that part to me was not my favorite. Only because I had seen what people could do in there with insane gear. And it just made you feel like, very weak. Didn't like. Yeah, yeah. What did you play? Do you remember what you played in that in that leak?Tyler: Yeah, that was my blocking build my trigger Happy build that I do. And ah, it was perfect for it. Um, I was using Cyclone with it. Now I've recently changed it. The last leaguer to To what's it called Laid Storm. But I did Cyclone for that league with Max block build. And it would have worked really well except trigger skills had almost 100% reproduction crash associate ID for the first month. So I really tried to play, but because I had all three trigger skills on my on my build, I didn't know and they didn't really know they did. It wasn't fixed for about the first month, so Unfortunately, I didn't get a lot of playing time andJustin: didn't actually last that long. Was it aTyler: month? It was a month before the trigger skills Scott fixed. It takes time to figure out like that for long was the longest time because it was a cyclone build. They were really focused on trying to fix the mechanics and cycle behind the scenes because they thought cycling is causing a lot of crashes. It ended up causing very few, but it was a focus and it's just how it works, so not as a criticism. It's just what was impacting my specific build took quite a while to fix. And so by then, two people that I play with were kind of Douglas Aly.Justin: Maybe. I definitely don't think it was specific to the type of build you play, though, because that was the league where Cyclone became channeling and that made a huge difference to what you could do with it. And so you saw so many of the on effect skills now in used with cyclone, which was cool. Now I played flicker strike on Lee becauseTyler: I don't know why I actually don't remember what made me think A flicker strike. You're trying to make me throw up.Justin: Maybe. Maybe it was my goal. Just 100%. Be sure I wouldn't play with you. I'm not sure, but, uh, I will say it was the first league in I have played since was April 2012 in the in the beta. This was my very first headhunter drop where it actually draw, right? And so that was in one of the Legion things that was actually glacier farming, which was a big thing for me in that league. And I remember it dropped as a unique leather belt. And I was laughing because Ethan, who was who was in my office at the time, and I, you know, kind of just said to him, Of course, it's a tease. I'm not gonna pick it up. What a waste. I know it's gonna be garbage worms, Moulter. Whatever it is, um and so I most over top of it in both of us, just like crap their pants. Because it was it was actually centered, so that that was probably my favorite part of it.Tyler: That's if you were to have a highlight reel. That's that'd be rightJustin: at the top. Yeah, it was cool to have. I've had ahead 100 before, but they've always been through currency, so this is kind of cool to actually have one draw.Tyler: That's awesome.Justin: Yeah. And then So this was also the change. This latte league changed to the five sockets, which obviously allowed you forgetting to That owe me and you were talking aboutTyler: Oh, you mean the map device was able to have five sockets? Yeah, you could find that. I was pretty cool, right? Still in the game, they say still in the game. Is it if this didn't remove it, but I I haven't come across it, YouJustin: know, myself, either. Yeah, it and then timeless jewels were and they were in that the guy didn't play much with, um, they confused the hell out of me. I don't want to see a jewel with just a bunch of numbers, and you have to just put it in to find out what it was just just wasn't for me, But it was fun, Lee. I liked I liked legion. So, Jenny, we're good with legion.Tyler: I believe so.Justin: Legion then leads into blight, So blight comes out. I found it, actually, at little shocking that it was tower defense. It made me laugh when they announced it. And this was the league of monster minion buffs, which I knew you were in love with, obviously, since I readTyler: it. I am a minion. Pet lover, depending. What game you come from. I am hollow vote minions. My league. It was fantastic.Justin: So what did you play that league?Tyler: Zombies. What? Well, I did. They made a lot of I wasn't originally gonna plays office. I was. There's 11 or two of my guides. I've only played on Collins. Wanna have a plate on PC? And so I really wanted to play one of the other ones. But there were so many changes to minions and not just minions like the core gem like zombies was modified substantially from 3.73 point eight. But then they added an insane amount of very different but also powerful. Um, support gems like feeding, frenzy and meat shield and death Mark. And then they changed the values of the corresponding like minion damage and minion speed to accommodate those new additions and how minions leveled and then the whole necromancer ascendancy. It was so different that I had to play it just to see what it was like for the sake of replying to guide responses. But it was really good. ObviouslyJustin: it was the first league for me since again. I want to say it was backing closed Beta. Uh, when I was playing, I think one of my very first builds I ever played was minions. And I remember one of the very first things I ever message the developers to say was there needs to be a counter like the idea that I can't see how many zombies I have out is really difficult to play, how a minion build. And so this was, I think, my first time touching minions. Besides, I played with us rs a little bit, but I don't think I touch onions for years, years and years. Of course, with this league, you really there wasn't I mean, I could have played other stuff, but it just said it made so much sense to play around with with millions, and it was fun. It was the easiest league start I've ever had ever in the history of path of exile. I remember going, but this is something's wrong. This is.Tyler: Well, you didn't zombies for your league start, right? You didn't do any different. Yeah,Justin: No, I went zombies and it was just It was better. It was so smooth. And I remember laughing to you. Maybe a month in just jokingly saying that. Oh, boy, you're zombies are going to take a hit. I think it was actually right after celestial zombies came out. I was like, All you're screwed. That's it. That's the curse. Once you could stay with celestial. You're done. Yeah, So that that actually, for me, blight didn't last a super long time. But I do remember ending it with celestial everything. Of course, I got every single celestial, empty X had a bunch of the minions in the celestial on. Did you? Did you like the blighted leak? Did you like the towerTyler: defense again? I really liked it. I'm I was apathetic to the tower defense part, but I am a huge fan. My favorite leagues are the ones that just let me kill stuff right away. And so I love things like blight. You know, I love it when I have an insane amount of rogue exiles on the map. I just love it. What is it? Reach where they come out of the ground. Just love it. So this one was similar to that? I didn't have to go anywhere else to find my to do the lead content. And they were just comes rushing at you, which is great. Um, I I was apathetic to the tower stuff, so I basically just looked for the closest checkpoint. Her choke point or two made them slow and then let my minions deal with the rest. And Natalie, because zombies were so overpowered, that strategy did work. It was their intense to make towers almost required, unless you had an insanely over powerful built. So, um, I did like it. I love that the minions just came rushing at you, or I guess not passing pod, whatever that was called, but yeah, no, I really liked it. If if it worked, if it worked.Justin: Sure. I think my favorite part about Blight was sister Cassius. Oh, here singing and was listening in. And she just didn't give a damn about you either. Was almost irritated that you were there.Tyler: Yeah, Yeah, she needed you. And that pissed her off. Yeah, it was pretty funny. I do the one thing about blight. It would have been It was very difficult. I primarily play console and it people had to really, really do specific builds that weren't busy for a Minion League. Blight was too busy, right? I mean, everybody's has a lot of minions out, and then there's an insane amount of monsters out with a lot of hit points. And there was It was just a slide show on normal consoles, not just the original P s foreign Xbox one, but the the second version of thumb. Even some people with the Higher and PS four and Xbox one X they they'd run into some pretty big slide. So slideshow stuff, too, depending on it. So for ah, Minion League blight kind of counteracted itself with with what would be overpowered and successful. So a lot of the streams that you would see we're primarily PC, especially as you got later into the league, because only a higher NPC could actually handle a full blight map. The full board of minions. But I really liked it. I just wish it I just wishJustin: it worked, right? I do remember hearing people struggling with the blighted maps in later in game, just with the amount of stuff that would happen on your own screen. And then you multiply that by a 1,000,000,000 with the amount of mobs that were coming outTyler: and they didn't even implement it into console immediately. It was so challenging because of the frame rate issues and such on PC. They implemented it into 3.9 right away. But they didn't don't console and they're fixed on console was to just make less paths less minions. And it's just so easy. Mmm, It's so easy. It's Ah, I mean, I'm glad it's in it. I'm glad it's in it, butJustin: I've actually done them more while I run into them. Yeah, me, too. It's kind of nice It I guess it's nice because they're not so often. I never I never had a problem with the the Tower defense, but I also never cared to do much else Besides the reason ones. I would hit the ice ones and then just sit back in the middle and let my let the minions just do their thing in the middle. Yeah, I rememberTyler: doing. I like I like it. I don't mind. Some people have an issue when they have to stay in a spot and fight enemies. I don't care as long as there's enemies and I really like blight and breach. What's the abyss for those types of ones? I really like them. Overall, I thought it was a great legal.Justin: And then we went into the current league, which there's not a whole lot to talk about, just cause it's so new.Tyler: Well, they nerved one minion from 3.8. Do you know which one mother, actually, too. That's true. It was, in vectors, passions on these songs andJustin: then the support James. Now that being said, we've talked about this in the in the patch notes, ones necessary changes, maybe a little heavy handed. Hopefully, it's adjusted a little bit, but, uh,Tyler: yeah, because I think it was fair. I was pretty broken hearted, and I wasn't overly kind with, uh, my opinion of it, But I do think it wasJustin: after the human stuff. Yeah, it was kind of necessary. Now they did a huge Bo Ri work with 3.9Tyler: 3.9. That was the bowl leak or is the bulletJustin: is in the bowl league? So what now? It's funny that we say it's the bowl EQ. What are you playing?Tyler: Playing about build and I'm playing a build every every boat skill got buffed or modified to be relevant is this league. But there were two to Bo won support and one primary scale active skill that got Ah, I guess nerved would be appropriate. I played elemental hit. I lost a lot of damage compared to 3.8, and I'm playing with its link to the ballistic totem support, which is brand new. Um, they changed that from the attack, told him support which originally you could only lay one at a time unless you invested further in the tree with items. Now it can lay three so and blisters are brand new to the league. This league, too. It's a new type of attack totem that you have to lay within Malay Range as opposed to being able to swell. So But yeah, uh, my my specific build got hit hard, but this is a bow league, and people are going both crazy and they're lovingJustin: it. I skipped Bo's entirely for this league so far. I decided to go a spectral throw. I'm having a really good time, actually. Meta morph. I have struggled a little bit with some stuff. First time with S S f for quite a long time. But it's I like it. The Metamor stuff again. I have found this league more challenging, I think, for in a positive way, Not just like Okay, dump chaos, damage on me, like in syndicate or right, uh, make a stupid area that closes on me within, like, three seconds. As soon as I move like synthesis. This is This is legit. Like, if it's difficult, it's my fault. I made it harder. I love that. I absolutely love that.Tyler: Yeah, me too. I love that you can take You could make it. I mean, it's still gonna be a boss fight if you took all white items. But you can take the easiest body parts and make the easiest boss you can. And if you have a really weak build, you'll you'll do. Okay, right. But if you have ah, pretty good. Not the best billed as you're leveling and you do all the hardest ones, it's gonna be a hard fight, and it's I thought it was really well balanced right off the bat. A lot of the changes they've made weren't to these new bosses. That was really cool. One thing that I love that meta morph added just into the core game was completely was much harder enemies, they added. Armor and elemental increase. Resistance is in chaos. Resistance is they increased the life off bosses and enemies and rare Sze everywhere. And they just made the game. They didn't increase their damage, but they increased their survivability, and it has made the game itself a lot harder. Meta morph is a great league and the changes they made to the core game that they introduced with meta morph and perfect timing. Of course, because you're making a boss league and then you're adding all these extra boss survivability things into the game as well. I was perfect cohesion, and I think they did a really good job. They haven't changed any of it. It's awesome.Justin: Yeah, I don't even remember. Are the changes for that tied to the metamorphosis? Igor, This conquers of the atlas. It's kind of hard to tell which was for what.Tyler: It's well, it's all the same, right? I mean, it's tied two unique enemies. It's tied to this of the very specific map. Bosses were individually tweaked. Yeah, I mean, some of them boss fights were completely rebound anyway. But for those existing ones there, they were specifically tweet so that they were an appropriate level. It wasn't just flat, you know, This this tear all got the same percentage of health increase. From what I remember them saying anyway, so it's all intertwined.Justin: So then tied in with 3.9 and metamorphoses this the big end game change to the atlas of Now we're into the conquers of the atlas. We've got new new endgame. Bosses knew endgame story, and I mean, we're both relatively new into it. I think you're a bit further than I am, but again, I've had a blast. It's made. It's made mapping much more challenging at a lower tier, and that's fun. I like that.Tyler: Yeah, definitely. I'm I think it's it's done a very good job. So far, I've heard that higher up that there's some some issues with people that were David Cook to complete certain quests or boss fights, or that certain items weren't falling within a proper area. But for the most part, this has been this league tied with the new endgame that they've created. To me, it's it path of excels always tried to be a very difficult game. And trying to incorporate what people want in the game and what they want in the game is obviously a very tricky thing. I well, I would assume for them say so in their interviews. And it's, I think this has done just a fantastic job of making the game difficult while keeping the game powerful.Justin: Yep, Yeah, I agree. And it's again. It's a little hard to judge because we're three weeks, two weeks into it, into the league, so it's still got a bit of legs behind it before we see how it all plays out. But so far it's been a positive experience.Tyler: Yeah, the one thing I really like about this new endgame for Metamor are not for many more, but the conquers of the atlas is that you are going to see the same bosses that you're gonna fight it. The end throughout the atlas. Not just that. Yeah, and I think that is so good. G has tried to make this game more accessible to new people over and over without making the game easier. And the huge problem that a lot of new people, if they made it to t fifteens and sixteen's, which they would be able to clear a T 15. No problem. They'd crush the Boston problem than they'd meet a guardian and they get crushed. And this new method that they have of fighting the same boss but then in multiple tears as you get further and further into the atlas. It's nice because you're now familiar with the boss as it's getting harder, and I think it's a lot more accessible to new people. And I think they did a really good job considering that, too.Justin: I think it'll be curious to see how that plays out as we get further into the Alice, because for me, I it's hard for me to say I definitely agree with you. It's cool that you're already hitting endgame bosses in like tear fours and fives, and that's just gonna you know, you're gonna only able to expand on that as you get further along. But I haven't gotten there yet, so it's hard to say, Yeah, I'm loving it It just as much when I'm into your 15th and 16th yet So that's cool. Yeah, it has been good so far. All right, so here's a question for you. We'll start. We'll start with the negative side first just because I know you're a positive positive guy. So, yeah, what was your least favorite league? And why of those four? And it's kind of hard because I know madam, or so new, but I highly doubt it. It will be the one. But which of those we've got 3.6 a synthesis. 3.7. His legion 3.8 is blight. And then the current 3.9 metamorphose, which was your least favorite league. And whyTyler: synthesis was easy to ignore if you didn't like it. Legion. I really liked the mechanics, but my specific build didn't get fixed for a month. I think my least favourite was blight. Now I really liked blight, but there's the common sense of making your meta being capable of doing your mechanic, and they didn't coincide at all and because I'm a console player and G knows about their console games, and they need to be able to make their game for the least efficient platform that they release it on. I think blight was my least favorite because I couldn't play it on my favorite platform.Justin: Yeah, okay, so for me, my least favorite would be It's probably synthesis. But it's kind of unfortunate for me to say that because I played synthesis much, much longer than blamed much longer, I would say almost twice as long as Blake. I played synthesis, and that was because I loved the changes to spells. It made the milk fund to play. But I absolutely hated the league mechanic. I just could not. I didn't like it. It wasn't fun at all. Where is Blight it? Ah, it almost seemed a little bit too easy. And I didn't have any interest in the the the Blight mechanic. So and that literally was the endgame. Yeah. You know, as you leveled, there wasn't anything new that you were introducing towards the end game. And so I found a burnt out real fast, but synthesis for me. If I'm looking at it, from a league perspective, I hated. Synthesis is engaged. I did not like any of the the nexus stuff. I felt completely lost all the time on that one, like figuring it out. So for me, that that was me I loved, absolutely loved the actual plane of that league and the skills and the reworks and stuff. One of my favorites. But the actual lead mechanic to me was the blight wasn't poorly done. It wasn't that the league mechanic was poorly done. It just I didn't interest me, was great. But the synthesis league mechanic, to me was a little bit shortsighted and definitely wasn't one of my least favorite ones. But now let'sTyler: move away from the brightest guys so I could see how synthesis confuses you.Justin: I know I like simple, simple. So let's move awayTyler: from you go. You go first on this one, you go first.Justin: Okay, So this is gonna be our favorite, which was our favorite league. And why you go legion for sure. I'm really liking meta morph. I can't say for sure until the end of this league where they'll line up Legion introduced so many Malay where he works that I've been working for. Well, we're looking forward to forever. And so I tend to lean more towards the mainly type skills. It's just more fun for me, and I loved a lot of the changes that they did and Legion League Mechanic was was dummy proof. It was It was so simple to play. I wasn't a really big fan of that hole. Put the five things and I did it, you know, I played it. I did beat the one with all five, and but I felt like it was so forced to go that the cyclone route, if you really want, especially once the headhunter had dropped it. It made it really easy to go, and I just have a couple swords and put on the belt in the hallway. But the the lead mechanic to me, was a lot of fun. It was within the map. Side is what I'm referring to like. It made it very, very easy to just play the atlas to just play my build. Maley was strong, and so for me, as a Finnish league, it's the only one I can compare it to, because anymore so far has actually been a lot of fun, but we're like 23 weeks in, so I can't really give it the top for me. So what about you?Tyler: Catch for me was it's meta morph. Really, I know we're only that into it, but it's ah, it's harder right now. I know. Adding all the resists in defense for enemies is isn't necessarily for the league itself, right? That's just core. Game change is kind of like the endgame. But coupling that with adding bosses that you can choose how difficult they are you could specifically choose rewards like I want more rare items are away. Should I do, ah, unique item or should I do more currency drops and you're actually guaranteed at least something of what you've chosen. Now you don't know what the body parts are gonna offer you money from all of your options. You you're picking your rewards, which is so great in a game like this, you're picking the difficulty based on the reward, which is so great you can pick the location in the map where you're gonna fight. Um, it's just it's awesome. And I love one thing that, like I mentioned before about G one in this game. Hard, but people wanting to clear it in the blink of an eye. This slows the game down, right? Like we've we've talked who will get to excel con in a bit. But one thing that they really wanted to do with Pee wee, too, was really slow. The game down. And this is a huge step in that direction, even a year before Pee Wee to comes out is you're slowing down these enemies air rough. You need a really good build to destroy the really hard metamorphose and a moderately leveled build. Or one that's still trying to find its gear, still trying to find that right to weapon full of mods that they would boost their DPS quite a lot. It's gonna be a challenge, and you're and you're making tough choices. I love Metamor for that, and it's and it's metamorphose itself is stable, rock solid, stable, right? A lot of the issues that have come out with 3.9 have actually been with a new endgame, not with metamorphosis thing. It's been bug free, but I just think it's been the most stable. It's been the most exciting. It's the most. I'm spending time looking at my screen, choosing what I want to do. It's not just blind. I love it. I absolutely love it.Justin: Who are the 3.9 for you? That's nice. Yeah, alright, it's a legion. I do like metamorphic. We'll see how it plays out. Okay, so you actually brought it up. But let's one of the final things that they talked about in their development plan for 2019 was Excel Con. So x o Khan was obviously a huge deal for people who like Path of Excel. Ah, whether you went or not, just the idea that they were doing it was awesome. The fact that this indie development game was going to be, you know, has grown to the size of holding its own conference or a game. And then not only are they doing it, but they're gonna hold it in literally the for this place, every other country on Earth, that that's awesome. The fact thatTyler: a good turnout they had to increase what they had to upgrade their venue.Justin: I think I heard when we were so we I got to go, which was awesome. I went with my son, who's Ethan and and we I mean, we had a blast. He definitely had a huge, really, really good time when he was there. And I know me and you had talked about possibly going and it just didn't work out. But, ah, the I can't remember the number I want to say It was around 1313 100 people, is what we were told out was there, which is insane, especially given a huge percentage of those were not local. And when I was looking it up just out of curiosity, the closest besides Australia, the closest place that you could fly from was 12 hours away, which is just It just made me laugh because it's yeah, it literally is the furthest place away from everywhere else on Earth. Besides, you know, the people in Australia. But when we were in a cool when we were down there, I'll just quickly throw this in there when we were down there, actually made a reddit post because I was floored at the way that the people that were there were acting towards each other and the community sort of just in general. It really took me back to beta days of P o E. It just was Everybody was friendly. Everybody was hanging out, you know, like they're just was It was a really cool vibe there. And that's coming from, Uh, no, I'm not old, but an older guy. I mean, I think probably the average age I would have guessed was probably 27 28 there. But it was just cool. Like people were Tibor Super friendly. I mean, Ethan, he's 18. He had a blast, so it was a really cool experience. And then, uh, well, I mean, we should get to really the 22 major announcements, I guess maybe three. So we had 3.9, which was obviously this expansion in the whole change to the conquerors of the atlas. A cool, cool announcement that came out mobile announcement. Saving the big one for the mobile announcement was hilarious, because I remember sitting in the theater and watching people figure, you know, are they out of their minds, like, is this is this really is Are they lying? Everybody kind of thought, you know, until you saw how much you know they had the fall guy, which was hilarious. in their video and ah, and then Christmas, becauseTyler: that's his job to raid.Justin: Oh, it was so well done, though. It was so well done. I hope it was his idea, because I think that that it was one of the funniest titles for anybody in theTyler: whole in anyJustin: of the videos. TheTyler: mobile fall guy, Global fallJustin: guy. But it was a good view. And then Chris kind of talking afterwards about how it was hard to announce this last year made me crack up.Tyler: Oh, that he was so nervous. What? Cono Not sure what they were going to do.Justin: Yeah. And then, of course, the huge p o e. To which was, you know, the pre announced four point. Oh, but is actually gonna be path of exile, too. So I'm curious. What? What did you think? I mean, the ex con was so big, we can't cover obviously all of it. But now what? What was sort of yourTyler: overall? So for those listening, Justin, Nathan got to go. I, of course, did not get to, but we were messaging quite a lot throughout the entire conference, and it was really cool to get their perspective of to what was happening when what I could see. And so I was watching on Twitch and YouTube, and I got to see a lot of the interviews that Justin you think you can get to see while they were there because you could just can't see everything live. But they only had one channel that was streaming some of the interviews. And so I think obviously my favorite part of ex Sal Khan was the path of exile to announcement. But the best part of that was when I think it was Chris that came out after when Chris he was almost crying and he was having such a hard time controlling his emotions and his love for his game, his passion for the community that plays. He was so overwhelmed with people's excitement over what they were doing and their excitement to play even more and get more. I just can't imagine what it would be like. They were saying that they, for the longest time there was like four people. Only the people that were allowed in his office without knocking knew that 4.0 was actually gonna be p o. B two and it was only hey was saying that it was just nobody knew and for that to just get off their chests for them to be able to talk about everything. It was one of my other favorite moments along with Chris. Almost crying in a good way was when Jonathan maybe maybe this quick maybe was both. But I think it was Jonathan. He sat down for one of his, um, interviews, twitch interviews, and he was so calm. He was just so exciting, was so relaxed and he just said, Ask me anything. There's no more secrets And he was just so happy to just talk about anything. And I thought that was really cool because there's so much that's still going to come. And I mean, when you compare this to the Deauville for announcement, it just blows it out of the water. And the things that these are even comparable G was thinking about for even longer, It seems. It's just It was It was so exciting. I can't wait for another 19 ascendancy classes while we're on the subject.Justin: Yeah, it's gonna be cool. So I haven't I mean, you know this story and there's There's obviously a few of our friends that we know locally and that our family, friends and stuff no, this story and very few people outside of that would obviously know about this. Besides, there was a picture, but one of my one of my favorite sort of experiences when we were there because there were a lot, I mean, just that being in New Zealand on its own was amazing. That that country is beautiful. Yeah, but we were the day before the exile con event we had run into about, I don't know, we had met just because Ethan wanted to go out and do all of the meet ups and stuff, and I was following along with him. We met quite a few people on Dhe, some really, really cool people while we were out there that we hung around with and, you know, would go for lunch and go exploring with. And so we were. We were walking with three other guys to other guys. I don't remember. There were I think there were four or five of us, but we were walking down one of the main streets right by where X Sal Khan was gonna be taken taking place. And as we're walking down the street, this guy's walking towards us and he's wearing a path of exile shirt and right off the battles I cooled. My God, that's Chris And he's just by himself. He's just walking up. But the funniest part is he kind of looks at our group and he sees that. I think four of the people in our group are wearing path of XL shirts and at this, or jackets or something. And at this point path of exile like or a story? The ex con event hasn't started yet. There's not likeTyler: the next day or something. It'sJustin: gonna be the next day. There's not a ton of people down, like in that area yet that are, you know, path of exile people. And so he looks over at us and he smiles and he's like, Hey, guys! And so you know, will you stop? We're like, Oh, hey, how's it going? And he he pulls his phone out. He's like, Do you guys mind if I take a picture with you and in my head I'm thinking, What the hell? And it didn't seem like everybody else was grasping that it was him. And the thing is, he had shaved like he was freshly shaved, which is not his normal look at all. And so we're kind of like, Yeah, sure for sure. And so he takes his phone, puts it into the selfie and holds it up high and takes a picture of himself with, like the 45 of us standing behind him, smiling and he turns around. He laughs, and he's like he mentioned the fact that, you know, a bunch of us were wearing path of exile stuff and he hit. The comment was, I need to take a picture so I can show people that people give a shit about my stuff. And of course it made his life. And so then he kind of looks at us for a second awkwardly is like, Do you guys want a picture? And in my and I'm like I grabbed Ethan. I pushed him. I'm like, Yeah, of course we want a picture like get in there. And so we take this picture of the four of them standing with Chris Wilson just in the middle of the street, and he's like, Thanks, guys, have a great you know, conference and was so great seeing you. He takes off and even kind of looks a measly and he's familiar. LikeTyler: what? Who is that like, Oh, my God, that's Chris Wilson.Justin: And he freaks out. Like what? It was a lot of fun, and he was So he was so nice. He actually recognized us when he was when Ethan was in line to go and get his signature, he wouldn't. God is like map signed by a bunch of the developers and stuff. And so he took pictures with him again. But, yeah, it was It was fun. It was It was a lot of fun. It was really cool to watch. You know, stuff happened through him as well. So yeah, it was cool. But so your favorite announcement would have been purely toTyler: announcement there was. I mean, there was so much interesting stuff that we've talked about in other episodes and that we have lined up for the future episodes. But my favorite announcement was most definitely peewee to her entire. Do that.Justin: Yeah, it was very cool. It was a fun to sort of hear the reaction, which I'm sure people experienced it anywhere they were if they were listening and cared about path of excel, just the idea that they were coming up with two and that it was gonna coincide with one andTyler: yeah. Oh, just so I have three very specific things that excite me. Ah, lot of appeal. We too. But what is it that you are looking? I mean, we have I know we have, Ah, an episode coming up about this. But what is short, Quickly. What are a couple of things that really excite you about beauty too? Well,Justin: I feel like a lot of it'll safer. Probably a future episode. But I would say right off the top of my head, I just love the idea of a new story line. Okay, you know, just that whole new I've been playing path of exile for a long time. So and as of you and it's it's kind of cool to think that there's gonna be an entirely new storyline to follow. There is way too much for me to say what like my actual favorite stuff is, and we'll talk about that obviously coming up, But yeah, I think just the idea that there's a whole new storyline that's gonna be coming along isn't is very cool. What about you?Tyler: Slower paced game play? New gym system. 19 newest sentences. The fact that they're going to have what was a 38? It was 19. That's currently 19 right yet 631 Yet Okay, so 38 sentences that are going to be different and all have the ability to have multiple place 1000 builds within each. That's mind going.Justin: It'll be cool to see if there's 38 different ones. That's aTyler: lot. Oh my goodness, I e My brain's exploding thinking of voting.Justin: So yeah, so I mean, overall, though with the information that they gave on exile con and and sort of, their announcements back in 20 the beginning of 2019 for it, I would say it was a hit. Think they kind of nailed it? It really seemed to go Well, they seem to be really happy with how it went. And everyone that I ran into and spoke to their just loved it like every single person had a blast. Sweet. Oh, yeah. It was really good.Tyler: What about mobile? You gonna play?Justin: I have played it. You played it while I was there is true. It was It's cool. You know what? They've done a really good job with it. It's It's It's very simple to play very simple to just, you know, play with you with your thumbs. I'm not a mobile game person. I don't tend to play very many games on the mobile. If I was made me, I can't think of maybe flying. I tend to do work that when I'm flying. So I don't know, Maybe if I was maybe if I was just looking for something to do, it's simple enough to pick up and it will be free. So I'm sure I will install it. Uh, hopefully, hopefully by the time that they come out with it, it doesn't try to set your phone on fire because it runs very, very hot. They gave phones that you could test with, so I don't know what what models of these phones they were, but your hands were like, Yeah, it's like you took something out of the oven by the time you had played it for about 2025 minutes. Yeah. Would you playTyler: it mobile I'll download it if my phone can handle it. Um, but I'm I'm just it really impressed. Yeah, I'm excited for it. I'll give it a shot. I'll try and make time for you, But I'm I'm not gonna go out of my way because I play on call. It's a land PC as well, but I'm excited to try it. I hope my phone complaint, and if it does, I'll definitely forced myself. Thio, give us some time and I'm sure it'll be great. One of my favorite lines from Path of exile to, though, was when I think it was, Chris said. We don't care if it's successful, but if it's not, we don't care. If we make money like they don't even have micro transactions lined up for it, they might not. Even I don't think we're going to. It's just a game. It's just free and it's We wanted to be a really good mobile game if it makes money, fine. But they don't even see how it's going to make money. And if it doesn't okay like it's a mobile game for mobile people, that's all it is and I thought that was really cool because it solidifies. I remember the rage when Xbox came out with as the first console, the first non PC platform for Pee Wee, too, and a lot of PC land exploded in rage. And so PlayStation had a much friendlier release, of course. And so it's it's nice for PC players or just console only players to know that that they're not going to be overlooked because of a new focus of income. So if the false really cool,Justin: especially because there could have been that's right now like there is a there's a lot of money that can be made a mobile. So the fact that they're not putting the focus on it is really nice. Well, so yeah, I would say, I would say with their development notes from 2019 I'm really excited to see what the 2020 ones will come out with it in the next few days because they stayed true to damn near everythingTyler: they were spot on. Yeah, I think the only thing that it will be a little bit off and by no criticism at all is just their timeline for Pee Wee, too. I think it's 21. You were reading it. It was like some time in 2020. Maybe early. Maybe not Now they're thinking, but absolute earliest is the very end of 2020 Likely 2021. But peewee to always any time of year. I'm just too excited.Justin: Yeah, I feel like I heard it going all the way up to 3.12. So I'm you know, that gives at least three more leagues. Nine more months. Eso maybe the very, veryTyler: end. Well, we'll see. I don't really care. I'll release it over Christmas Tree. Oh, man,Justin: I hope they do so bad. That's the December release. Oh, merry Christmas. Be a means fixing only p o e one will continue to work on. That would be the best Christmas gift. Oh, we could talk about so much. Yeah, All right. So let's let's end this one off. I think this was this was cool that it was fun to look back. It's sort of what they did in 2019 and and now, and sort of give us an idea of what to look forward to for 2020. So we wanted to do a giveaway. I think it's gonna be fun. We're gonna make it super simple. There's gonna be two ways to enter in a post a reddit post on the show notes. All you got to do is post on that. Tell us what league was your favorite and why we don't care. Which was the your least favorite. Let's keep positive, that's what Red it's four positivity. That's right, you know, show some love as well, if you have you been enjoying the podcast or give us some constructive criticism. But all we need to see is a post showing us which league was your favorite and why, maybe what build you played. So that's one way to enter. Be on Reddit. Yeah, we'll post the link to it in the show notes for for this podcast, so you'll be able to find it anywhere. You're listening to this podcast. The link will be in the description or notes for it. Ah, and then the other way is to Retweet. We're gonna have a tweet coming out as soon as this episode goes live. If you're not following us, check us out on Twitter at forever exiled 82 we will have a tweet specifically for Episode six and Our Giveaway, So make sure you re tweet that if you've got Twitter. So those are the two ways to get entered and which playing for is you get to pick. We've got three options. It's either the bass Lisk core supporter Pack, the grand Sanctum Supporter Pack or the Eternal Damnation supporter pack. If it turns out you, for some odd reason, have all three or don't like them, then we'll just get you the equivalent value in points. Ah, to your account. So yeah, that's it. So we've got Red a Twitter win some goodies, and we're going to announce the winner Jury in Episode eight. So we have Episode seven still coming out at its regular time. This was sort of our bonus, one coming out for New Year's Eve and New Year's Day. So happy, Happy New Year's and, ah, we're gonna have Episode seven coming out of its regular scheduled thing on Sunday night. And with regards to supporter packs, if we can make it work, we'll make it work for whatever account you have. So if you're ah, you're an Xbox player, a PC player, a PlayStation player, we can work with support with G to make sure that those supporter packs are sent to you on your whatever platform you're using. That's right. So that's where it is. Read it. Tweet us sick. What you wanna win will announce the jury in Episode eight, which is two more episodes ofTyler: waste. I'm gonna win. It's permanent. Win.Justin: Yeah, you're kicked out anyway, guys, Thanks so much for listening to Episode six of Forever Exiled A Path of Exile podcast. This has been a really good time. And I hope you guys all have a super safe New Year's Eve and a good New Year's Day following. After that, I am one of your host, Justin a K Tagz.Tyler: I'm Tyler. Wrecker of Days. Oh, was I supposed to finish? Okay, well, it added at something in, um, hang on. Okay, then. I'm Tyler. Wrecker of days. Be safe this holiday week. No, no, no.Justin: What are you talking? You know what, everyone.Tyler: No, no, no. What? I was going to say somethingJustin: about your name again. I'm just gonna cut it anyway. But give me No, don't say that part again. Just give me half a second before you start speaking, but don't make it so.Tyler: No, no, no, no. This isJustin: actually now gonna be our troll. That'd beTyler: awesome. No, I wanted people to be safe on New Year's Eve. Get stupid. And for some reason, people seemed Forget that at New Year's Eve. But anyway, trying to anyone better would you, um, we appreciate all the listen. Some thanks for your time. Have a happy New Year's. Eve was safely safe. You want todo sure record and I know I'm going to say it, but you have all these notes that are distracting me about my filters. All I want to talk aboutJustin: is what is what happens when I throw on our troll on you that you have to doTyler: what you have just playing as I'm still talking about how I'm gonna do a note. True. What? What way would you say?Justin: Listen, I think the intro every damn time you have do you do do it? Yeah, because otherwise, but this is what our ingenuityTyler: I'll do the next time I'll do Episode sevenJustin: you can't recognize or six in You started with five because the intro change in Episode five you started with Rokko, remember? Thanks.Tyler: No, I don't. Yes, it's the widow. I don't remember. Thanks. Yeah, thanks. Uh, well, um, all right, Well, what can I say? Thank you very much for the listens, everybody. We greatly appreciate it. And again, if you have any encouragement or criticisms for us, please let us know on Twitter or on Reddit after one of our posts and we'll see you on episode seven.Justin: Make sure to check out the show notes below. If you've got any questions or concerns, nobody has concerned. I don't care if they have concerns. Heather clarified. Give make sure to check outTyler: Larkin and put this all owed on the same day that you were ready. I was ready. You weren't ready.Justin: I'm not gonna cut any of this is gonna be the longest. Whatever. You just you build like a needy and I'm previously on yourself. I forgot I was loved. Make sure to check out the show notes. For more information about today's episode, you confined us online at www dot forever exiled dot com as well as on Twitter at forever exiled 82Don't forget to find us at www.foreverexiled.com and @ForeverExiled82 on Twitter

We finally made it to the Atlas! Look out white maps, here we come!Join the party! Check out our website for more episodes and be sure to follow us on Twitter.www.foreverexiled.comTwitter @ForeverExiled82Path of Exile WebsiteWrecker of Days Builds ListFull Transcript of Episode:Justin: Hey there. Welcome to Episode five of Forever Exile. The Path of Exile Podcast. I am one of your host, Justin A K Tags.Tyler: And I'm Tyler Wrecker of Days. Well, we made it Number five. Yeah. Good. Good. We're doing the best of episodes, Ari.Justin: Yeah, where we're at, like, take 41. RoughlyTyler: way. Our we've been We've been giggling trying to start this podcast for, like, the last hour.Justin: You know, actually, you saying that makes me want to just quickly jumped the gun a little bit because I noticed, if you're one of your notes was just how incredible your giggle is.Tyler: So I obviously listen to the podcast. Once you've finished editing them, Justin does everything. By the way, I just sit here and giggle and make fun of him. But after he's edited and what we get to listen to it, I like to listen to it to see what it, of course, sounds, likes weak and make it better make the next episode better and better and constructive criticism I have noticed now that I really ate my giggle. I sound so lame. Gable. It sounds totally fine in my head. I feel like a manly man when I giggle in my head. But my goodness, when I giggle when I hear from the outside, it's brutal.Justin: So that just shows how impressive it is that for four episodes I've been editing your giggle just to increase the highs. I'm just kidding. I should think this is going to be, like, really high.Tyler: No, this episode I'm gonna Ha, ha.Justin: That is hilarious. Yes, I am. Anyway, that made me think of it. You said giggle. It's your fault. Uh, all right, So tell me anyway, tell me about your build. You've been doing it. I mean, do refresher on your building where you're at right now. Let's let's hear it.Tyler: All right. Um, I finally had some time to gets maps, which was nice. I finished last few acts quite quickly. I like those last acts because there's very few side quest you need to do for extra passive points and finally got endgame. Tried to do it with my leveling gear, which wasn't special. It's not leveling gears, just whatever dropped. So I was pretty bad on resist. Tried to do. I know 5 to 10 maps with it, and, uh, just before the podcast started. I finally capped my resists, but damage is good and survivability would be good. I'm really liking it. I don't know what people are complaining about a lot of fun. Single target damage isn't great, but the game's a lot harder to so anyway,Justin: where you build when you say people complaining, Are you referring to just in general or specifically to your build?Tyler: Sorry specifically for that guide? I'm referring to the which building I do, and I'm doing my sion build. It's Ah, deadeye and inquisitor. It's elemental hit with attached to What's it called? It's still the list of support the ballistic totem support, Lester told him, Supports really weak. You basically need four totems, even though it only gives you three. You have to go find 1/4 told him just to make it worthwhile. But I'm quite liking it. And because you're constantly moving and laying the totems with elemental hit and with crit and with all the extra ailments that air happening freezing and shocking, it's I I really like it so far. I mean, I have a four, a blue four link, and, uh, I've been fine, so I'm excited to get a a nice five link.Justin: Your survivability, though, seems to be at least reasonable. So far, you're reallyTyler: very easy. It was really easy while levelling, of course, ramps up a bit once you get into the atlas. But, um, I had 19% fire resist, and I think 55 or 60 Ah, lightning resist. And there's a lot more chaos damage and oh, my goodness. I redid the graveyard. I did the new graveyard boss fight, and that's cool. I don't know if that was in our notes somewhere, so I don't want to jump ahead.Justin: I don't think I've actually done graveyard yet.Tyler: Oh, the chaos. I just love how viable chaos is. I feel like it's syndicate, but without needing the crazy nurse that syndicate needed for a month straight, it's There's so much more chaos, damage, um, the new I don't really want to spoil it, but for the podcast tried Well, for you, the graveyard boss battle that used to just be you'd go into that crypt, right? And then to be that I mean, it's changed a couple of times now. I think it's a change it again and Now it's kind of like an open crypt area where you fight one of the skeleton bosses that existed in campaign. But then, once you beat that one whole wave of enemies come. And then a second skeleton boss comes because I think you can do that. Different ones, Yes, and I love it. There's shocking to let crazy. They're throwing chaos, damage at you from from range. I really liked it and especially because it's what. But it dropped for me. I think it was my fifth map. I don't know if it's Tier 12 or three. I forget, but it was when you're not really set with your resists. That's a punishing boss battle, and I really liked it. But back to the build, I just finished capping my resists and survivability was pretty easy before, so it's gonna be a lot better now.Justin: Nice and damage with elemental hit and ballisticTyler: clearing is no problem. Single target damage requires some patients, Um, but not only for the impatient, I guess you could say, um, I don't find that for me. I'm used to a slower paced game, and I don't find it tedious by any means. umJustin: Well, you actually, because under a single target apartment, do you think you'll do anything to change single target? Like, do you have any plans for?Tyler: Yeah, right now I'm using a blue Oh, right. Four link. Yeah. I'm using a blue for link right now. So it all it does, it's giving me 7 18% attack speed and 24% elemental damage. So I knew the second I even even if I had a white five link or a nice yellow four link, I don't think it would be a problem at all.Justin: Nice. Yes. So, me, I am doing spectral throw, still sticking with it, and, uh, I'm into maps. I've gotten past all of the, you know, the levelling, all that good stuff. Ah, it's been decent. It's solar cell. Found for me is a whole new breed of playing this game. I'm just so used to, ah, hit endgame by some of the gear that I want to at least make the maps a little easier to clear. Make sure I've got ah, you know, the right resists. But the build that I'm just playing around with is working. Fine. Now that I've got my gem slots set up. I'm still also only running off of a four link chest, so that'll make a big difference once I can do that. And I'm swapping GMP for ah, slower projectile still, which I probably I probably will do through the whole thing anyway. So it's it's been not bad. It's a little a little slow, uh, had huge hiccups as I was leveling and I'm realizing I think I made that. We made the comment that we were chatting that weapons hold. My gosh, Did they ever make such a big difference? Like,Tyler: Oh, and I love it. I love it.Justin: Yeah, it's It's nice. It's just it's I feel different. It's weird that that's different. I mean, you've always needed to upgrade weapons, obviously toe to scale your damage, but I don't know if it's just spectral throw. I don't know if it's if there was a specific change that's made that different, but I have found that without that, that constant upgrade to weapons which, by the way, upgrading Klaus Sucks is brutal. To find Klaus that have reasonable roles, especially cousin went straight physical, it's really hard to find replacement clause Once I've got something that's rolled plus physical and plus percentage physical, I can't It's really, really hard to find something that will improve that.Tyler: Catch him Well, I mean, I know your pain. I'm still using my blue four links. So, um, but it's I just love. I think it has everything to do with just the changes that they made to defense in the how bosses they're scale. All the extra armor and chaos and elemental resists. And for everyone, I just I just love that update where they made them harder to kill, but they don't hit harder. I mean, some of the boss mechanics had changed dramatically, which makes them a lot harder to, But it just makes weapons that much more important. And I love it because for melee, they're much more dependent on weapons than any other type of, um, build. I would say, like if you're doing spells, you can get away with not needing a fantastic wander staff, right? Or don't whatever also you're using. But when you're doing spells, you don't need something epic. It's just great to have opinions. You don't need anything, but of course, it's just mid. Maxine if you want to get a convicting one with sweet rolls Malays desperate for a good melee weapon. And I love that right after they have a melee league, they come out, they buff stuff to make melee weapons Much more important, I think it's really cool. I love how they did it.Justin: It is, Yeah, I think if I had maybe thought a little differently into ah, maybe it may be a different skill, or I don't know if I could have incorporated different types of weapons, but I just I feel like for a solo cell found I made it harder than I needed to because I've just I've struggled to roll clause that are good to use,Tyler: are you? Claw OnlyJustin: while I'm spect into a lot of the claw nodes just for the the engine for the crit. ButTyler: that's that's one of those things than that, I guess you kind of cornered yourself into then.Justin: Yeah, so we'll see. I mean, I'm now, uh, into maps. I've gotten it. Did the atlas. I mean, maze will just jump a little bit too. That is kind of cool. I've again, I'm not super far into it of ah, unlocked out Zana. So she's back. I've had these weird encounters with the the new the new bosses, like have just spawned And I can remember the name of the one that I've seen, but he kind of just spawned in, yelled at me and then took off and it just got the notification to keep following him. And I'mTyler: like, Yeah, I had that and I couldn't see what was happening. The map was still busy and I heard some dialogue. I didn't really know what it was, and yeah, that's to read it at the same time.Justin: So I'm I've noticed that as I've done more maps in that quadrant, um, he's popped up a few times. I haven't gotten much further into how that whole system works, but what I will say is, on top of the hole, okay? Trying to figure out weapons as I'm going along it further to what you were talking about with your build. My God resists so resist to me has always they've always been king. You get to endgame, you get resists. You just have to. I have never felt Maur than this league like yes, you Absolutely have to capture resists. It is especially getting into these these new bosses. Yeah, I don't know if he just happens to be lightning based or why everything is lightning. But after he popped up the bosses, or just like random rare Tze and just mobs would all of a sudden spawned with additional lightning damage, they would put these things on the ground. They were shooting. It was killing me so quickly and I think was in 40 48% or so, which normally obviously that's not great. But normally in a tear to map, I wouldn't be Oh, you know, I really need to be in 75. I just be working to get gear. And as I captured that cap it, I had no choice but to actually start adjusting my gear and what it made a huge difference, which I'm not had a lead like that before. And I started thinking because the first it pissed me off first thing I was like Oh my God, so tired of dying. And then, as I started to, you know, just the gear and especially with SSF, it makes it a little bit harder. But the the ability to now have to actually plan around capping my resists walk, maintaining life and damage. It's actually made it kind of fun. Yeah, it really has.Tyler: Yeah, I'm really a one thing. I totally agree with you. I completely agree with you. And one thing that I think I already mentioned it. But just in case I didn't turn now, only thought it. It used to be that you could just ignore chaos. Resist for so many of your bills until syndicate came along, you could ignore your your chaos resistant. You could just do your three elements. Now I feel with all the different roles they've done, they've added a lot of chaos, damage to some big, big boss battles and a lot of the metamorphose stuff. Specifically, it's almost like you can't get away. You It's always gonna have some sort of chaos. A we it's really made it so that you need all four. Captain. Oh, I used to just do the three. I'm sure many died. Many did. But I'm really finding the value and crafting some of those chaos rules just to at least get to the baseline of 0%. I think I saw this in a lot of chaos. Damage?Justin: Yeah, I have to. I don't know if I found it as, um it's definitely beneficial. I'm not at minus 60. I think I'm at 35 or something. So it's not. It's not zero, but it's definitely better than nothing but it to me. He was not as bad as the I don't know Lightning. I couldn't believe the difference from 48 to 75 obviously that's always gonna be a huge difference. It's just never been a huge difference. A tear to Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I've always felt like Okay, I'm getting into, like, six. You're seven. You know, it's time to actually start really paying attention to everything. Yeah, this is like it's cool. It's really cool, because that one of the complaints I've had in the past is just end Game now had become stale, so I think it's aTyler: sexy independence all the way through. Maybe we won't think that in the fifth league of this end game, butJustin: yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know enough about how the endgame all works yet, so it's kind of hard to say, but I am enjoying The metamorphose stuff is sometimes enjoyable. I've started to get some of the boss ones the ones that you actually collect. I haven't Not enough to actually do much with them. Ah, some of them have been reasonable. But even still, some of them are very, very difficult, Which is good. I don't mind. I don't mind not being able to kill a boss like a meta morph boss. Yet if I made it too strong and I'm like, Oh, God, this I just can't do it. Yeah, it sucks for me. I gotta learn to the next one.Tyler: I've heard a lot of people. Well, whether it's within my guides air on Reddit complained that it's too difficult And then there's some people of the mentality that a lake just turn. Just turn the difficulty down like you're not forced to do the hardest one. And if your build can't do it, don't do it on. And then there's other people that think. I've heard the complaints that they should be able to do the hardest ones, and I don't like that I like the you know, it should be terrifying to do the hardest. Have you got all the body parts in the map? It should be terrifying. You should expect it to be a long time or you should I don't know. You know what I mean? Totally beat Easy for you shouldn't expect to do it with mediocre everything.Justin: Yeah, I totally agree to me. It goes back to bay two days and like the early release days where there were some builds just could not do it, you just couldn't. And it wasn't It wasn't something broken in the game. It was something you did just didn't work. And you either adjusted or I mean, then it was start over. But yeah, yeah, I don't know. I've been I've been relatively pleased so far. I mean, I'm pretty early into the tears of the palace, but I found the difficulty to be decent. Uh, I mean, for me, for path of Exile, it's rewarding enough. Antemortem is adding the ability to get a lot of cool stuff that you couldn't get in other ways before you had to do specific league things to do it. So that's kind of fun.Tyler: Yeah, it is. It's It's really cool. I think they've done a very good job. I know that there's glitches for people that are a lot farther into endgame. Unlike us, we're still in our white maps. But, um, I think in terms of stability, this was really, really good. I just, um I forget where this isn't a list. So cut me off. If I'm too far ahead of myself. I just really wish that what they did was introduce this next league. But I love the new endgame, and I'm really excited about it. But to introduce a brand new endgame and then go on a skeleton crew for Christmas, it doesn't make sense to me.Justin: Yeah, but I think that's also for you. Somewhat related to other things. Not just specifically the league. The big leaguesTyler: challenges, but they're they're running into they. Some of the stuff that I'm watching this one is a little bit farther down, but the guy that I watch relax r o l a X on mixer. His issues are very different than mine. I'm waiting for cause I play standard. I'm waiting for the map tab to get fixed, but that's not gonna happen till after Christmas, because they have one person that works on the map tapping there on vacation. So but roll axes. His issue is he's getting to engage with every single character that he makes. He's already on. His fourth character is crushing Endgame, and his issue is that there's a glitch with Final Boss. And I've seen lots of stuff in the patch notes about the final Boss is and how they're glitches and they're not dropping this or they're not. You know, this, that another thing and he can'tJustin: What's the alternative? I mean, you're suggesting that they push of a game changing league to a ah, further release so that they don't have it come over Christmas,Tyler: right? I don't think any time you're gonna have a skeleton crew for two weeks, even if it's just one week, I really especially because it's going to be what, a three week point of the league right? Like this came out December 9. I think it was to have Christmas two and 1/2 3 weeks later, after you've completely revamped the entire endgame, I don't know.Justin: Yeah, I don't know what to me. It's hard, though, because if they come up with a league that barely has any changes just because they're gonna have a skeleton crew. That league ends up being garbage. It's people. People may not play it. I mean, the thing is, if they go, if they go skeleton crew, Firth, whatever it is, 2 to 3. I don't even think it's three weeks, two weeks, three weeks. Someone like that. Two weeks to, um, that's better to me than three months of, Ah garbage league.Tyler: Well, but imagine Metamor for the old Atlas. To me,Justin: that's fantastic. Yeah, I don't know. I don't knowTyler: how everything Woods with how it all works, right, Like, it's been a long time since I've worked in the video game industry, and when I did, I wasn't at the top of the food chain making the decisions with all the decisions that the higher ups need to make. But it's just for me. It's every Christmas. I really don't get to play until the new year, when the league comes out and then it's gonna be the Christmas League, as I call it as a standard player. I don't get to play until January, so it kind of sucks. ButJustin: I don't see the alternative to that, though, and I think that I mean, I I can see where you're talking about in the fact that it's ah ah, huge game changing league and it comes out right before they. I don't know how often else in the year they even have skeleton crews. I imagine it's not very often, but ah, I would rather I would rather it affect the I mean, people may really, really be angry about the fact that I say it or that they may disagree with me in some sense. But it's affecting the people who have a lot of time and have power rushed to end game, which is awesome, like That's cool that they have done it. But I imagine that that portion of the player base is small compared to the players who are still working their way up through be Atlas and you're never going to make it perfect. Old big release almost ever has been Yeah, so there's going to be something that goes wrong to me. At least there's nothing game breaking and even the ones I've read night for league players and but I don't care about standard, but I mean, even on center,Tyler: You're in the minority there.Justin: No, I'm definitely. I definitely know for sure. Not on that. Most of them. I might be in the minority that when I'm definitely not. But even your issue, it's still very specific, too. A mechanic not working. Not all mechanics not working now. Granted, it's a pretty I read that they, like, literally turned it off, right, Like they just turned off the convert button. I thought I heard. Yeah, yeah,Tyler: yeah, they did. It turned off, and it's true. I could play it. I could spend 15 bucks and get a new map stash tab.Justin: No, I don't think you should. And I agree, like frustration that comes from that. But I don't think you'll ever have a league release that's going to be perfect off the bat, even 2 to 3 weeks, and hopefully it's as close as possible. But I read the complaints. I've read the comments that they've made. They're not. It works. There's just some stuff. That's your rape. It's kind of frustrating for such is, but it's not broken. I would rather like I said, I would rather have maybe 2 to 3 weeks of Okay, this is stupid. I'm frustrated. I'm annoyed, and then they're coming back, and they're gonna fix it. Uh, and they still have staff working. It's not like a game. Breaking bugs is just going to go on because they want to enjoy Christmas. God forbid. But yet, uh, if if that means that, okay, I gotta wait 2 to 3 weeks for them to fix something that is really just irritating me versus having to deal with three months of a league that I found boring because they wanted to make sure not to get people upset. I feel like that's maybe worse. Yeah, I don't know, but I mean, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't mind it, but I'm not there, so it's not affecting me.Tyler: Yeah, way need to. I need to be more familiar with the endgame bugs that are happening to. But you've almost converted me almost. You may have let them have Christmas tie. Just let them have Christmas am. I am. But have Christmas with the old atlas, all right? Just bored again. So remember last episode we're talking about holy and showing up. I was all mystified. I thought it was fantastic that when you click on a crafting recipe, yeah, she just appears Yes, you know, she'd smoke bombs like a ninja turtle on, comes in and says her little piece and then goes away. I thought that was a really cool little thing. Um, so I hear you've been a little disappointed with the frequency of it. Now,Justin: is it just our last time that we talked about with that when this you first brought this up? Yeah, I think it was just last episode. Yes, So it was. It must have been, cause that's when I finally got some free time to play and every freaking recipe I would zoom in my damn camera, click it. And there were times I think I was even streaming at one point so you could watch, and I clicked it, and I I message you and said you're you're freaking liar. She didn't jump up and you said, Oh, it's because you were standing right in front of it. I was like, Oh, okay, maybe it wasTyler: always your fault.Justin: Now I will just say I was about to go into it. I was in a trial when I got that one. So I went to the next one and it actually kind of irritated me a little bit because the next one I found was within just the regular story of the game. So I moved off to the side, clicked it, and sure enough, she popped up. I was like, God damn it, Tyler was right. Yeah, And she did, like, smokes in. And she says, Ah, I think she said the same line every time. Something about this is very interesting. And then she smoke clouds out. But it's only the more I did it, the more I was watching it. She she doesn't so nothing related to a lab. Nothing related to trials will ever show up. Nothing related to delve will ever show up. And once you beat the game, that's it. She's done. She doesn't show up in maps. WhyTyler: do itjust campaign? I was really surprised. That's dumb. Yeah, whyJustin: I don't understand is that there's no Maybe somebody knows some weirdo lower to the game that somehow stopped actin that she couldn't help you with the recipesTyler: anymore. Well, maybe maybe they'll add it more if it's a new thing that we just have If it's new right and we didn't miss it before, maybe it's just they're adding it in and then they'll be able to add it to more. As, uh, maybe you just would have added, you know, to my previous complaint about having a new atlas. Maybe it just would've added more possible glitches when they were going on. No, no. HowJustin: hard could it have been? Toe added toe labs to delve, too. Maps everywhere.Tyler: Every little thing you add. Construe something elseJustin: does nothing. She's she literally does. She is. She's not even an actual like thing that interferes with you. You can walk right through her. She does nothing. It's like she's not there. It's dumb. Just put it into all of them. I irritated me more so than anything that you told me about it, because I remember it took me. It took me so much longer to get through some of the acts because I would run into them and be like, Okay, maybe, Maybe if I stand a little bit over here. No. Yeah. She doesn't show up in those places through.Tyler: Well, I hate you more than you hate me for Helena, Because you're playing solo Cell found this time for the first time in forever. And you couldn't give me the ridiculous Val City way point.Justin: You know it was you this times you I found it almost right away.Tyler: Oh, I don't even want to hear your solo. No. Found luck with a locked. Why did he lock? Hold your hand and show, YouJustin: know, but But something pointed the way I could tell. I could sense it. It was those fireflies they were leading.Tyler: Yeah, fireflies that don't stack in your inventory. Um,Justin: crabby old man. Yeah, I found I found that when I found thanks for not beingTyler: able to give you $2 city waypoint. I appreciate it.Justin: You have to work for things. That's how you enjoy the gameTyler: Can. The Bell City is really enjoyable.Justin: It's annoying because it not only is it probably one of the most frustrating spots to find it for, but then also, the next level that you load into is the freaking longest set of map or area. I think in the whole game that hope Rose is to get down to the spider. Oh, my God, It's exhausting. it's worse than Vow. Pyramid Way Worse, I don't know why. Maybe it's God's going down instead of up.Tyler: Well, it's twice as long. Yeah, well, Pyramid, I think it's three levels and then you're actually at the top. Whereas when you're going down to the spider, it's three levels and then you're just another second section, and then it's another three levels. If I'm correct, it's I don't mind that part, though. That one's relatively easy to navigate. And there's not a lot of wrong turns, not a fan. I don't mind the maps that get me, Um, but that's just because of my concussion. Symptoms and stuff are the maps with trees and the trees that go in front of the screen. Um, what would be one deal? I don't know howJustin: Jungle is brutal. I actually noticed that just today I was thinking to myself, Okay, we're talking about that whole technology of the stuff is cutting. You go through jungle. The trees do not fade it all, they say, right up in your face through the hole. I was like, Why would they not have these ones fade out? I don't know if it's just because it's older, and maybe it's more difficult for them to do that. But it is really weird to me that jungle, the jungle map Jungle Valley. The maps do not fade or sorry, the trees don't fade. Yeah, it's kind of weird.Tyler: Yeah. And you, old atlas. I would never, ever shaped the ones that had those tall trees that will go in front of the camera. It was just too too nauseated for me.Justin: Would it change it if if it had that effect, where they they weren't really? I mean, that kind of see through,Tyler: um Well, there's that. What was it? Is it Lava lake map that had, um I don't know if they're the same. A CZ they used to be. But the lab a lake when they had caught Eva was a tear 14 or 15 last week. That had some trees. Cem, Cem. Nice apple trees. ErJustin: over there. Just little ones rightTyler: there. Well, they were. They were big, They didn't go all the way up across the screen, and it would have that technology where it would fade so you could see yourself on the other side. That still gets me a little bit, but it's nowhere near as bad as something that's crossing my eyes really fast. Like car driving through and, you know, shaded woods Interest. Bang, bang, bang. Just shade hitting. You left, right and center.Justin: Yeah, it's funny. I just I literally just today was doing Jungle Valley and thought of that. Come on. And then I did. I think it was right after we finished Episode four. Maybe that next day I finally got to play, and I'm I'm running through an area goingTyler: the hell areJustin: these things popping up? My screen is unlike running through killing stuff. And yeah, that's the monster parts picking up. Yeah. Is that I'm sure people listening to it Or like what a whiny baby like it's alreadyTyler: faced. I'm sorry. Fix happen hour later, but what do you think of it?Justin: Uh, I I do like it. Obviously, I actually this is just me being a turd. I'm not a big fan of the way it shows up, because it and maybe we'll just take a bit of getting used to playing more to get used to it. But it throws me off for some reason, a little bit And maybe it's just cause I'm not playing a very fast build. I'm not moving super quickly through the map or through the zone. There's something about the way it pops up that just throws me off from looking at what the drops are to the interest at part going up. But I I love it. I absolutely love the fact that I don't care what it does. I don't care what flash my whole screen. The fact that it I don't have to be. Oh, I don't have to go and pick them all up is so much better. Yeah. You like it?Tyler: I like the animation. Yeah, I like it. I don't get distracted with it. I don't get it mixed up with other possible drops. I really like it. And the thing that I I don't know if this was how it used to be, because you and I have progressed slowly, but whether it was added new or not, I love that when you're about to go through a portal or a door. Um, what's his name shows up.Justin: Oh, yeah, kind of warns you.Tyler: Yeah, but I like that, you know, because I'm going to go through and I'm gonna clear the map. How I normally cleared I don't go out of my way for any lead content if it's going to be, You know, if if there's two monsters left and I'm missing one body part, I'm not going for it. So it's nice when I'm vote to go into this or I'm gonna portal. Oh, that he shows up. He's like a Okay, let's use up your pieces. Yeah, I like it. I think it was a very it was a gamer's choice, You know what I mean? Whoever came up with that idea, it was it was the gamer in them that came up with that. That was really convenient.Justin: Yeah, I think it is. Good, cause I would probably forget Maur often than not if if he didn't do that, and I'd probably load the next map and be like, damn it, I forgot to use up those parts. So that's at least good. Now, did you Did you get Ah, Did you get your Christmas gift from G, which I feel like you should take away from you? I feel like people who are complaining about them going to skeleton staff don't deserveTyler: a gift. I don't maybe. Oh, everything. Oh, they deserve a wicked Christmas. Well, old Atlas.Justin: So what you're saying, though, is the people that stay working what I'm saying? That'sTyler: qu'est er of words. No. Um, no, no, no, no. Not at all. Not at all.Justin: Did you get you get from them there? It was one of the boxes. Right.Tyler: Okay, well, you got I do not. What? But it was white.Justin: So I on on that same topic, because I I did get, um, a gift. I got the white, uh, missed, I think for the for your base, The white It's like, OK, but I also I decided I was going to do the grand sanctum pack because I really like the wings. And I like the outfit. That was the thing is the $60 pack. I'm still I'm still boycotting. Currently, there their core packs. I just Maybe I might really I might buy this the snake one just because it's, you know, it's it is a little bit unique, but I just can't I I was like, Well, I don't see myself going this time for there's no shirt. So why spend 240 bucks? But ah, it So I bought the couple of the boxes. I have 55 versions of God. What is it? The blink. Ah, it's one of the skills that they went there. No, no, no, it's Ah, it's not whirling blades. It's something Blade. What is it called, anyway? It's I have five of them. I hate that. That's the one thing that drives me crazy. You know, all I want is a damn portal. I think I've opened maybe 20 boxes, so not like a ton, but 25% of them have been the same thing killing me, G.Tyler: But I got to say, normally I'm I'm portals, is what it kind of revolves around for me. You know, you need to have a nice portal that matches the set. And because it's so much bigger and brighter, that color stands out to the others that you can get away with footprints that don't aren't the exact shade of white or green that you're looking for to match your set. You know what I mean? Because it's much farther away and it phase and it's busy, but portal portals really stand out there there the whole time. You stand next time for a while. The grand sanctum support pack is so nice that I'm gonna get it, even though I don't like at a normal that could match it.Justin: Well, give me a portal that you have because there's portals that mattersTyler: and that really, I don't think so. Well, sometimes it's also it's not just the color. It's also the action that the portal does, or the colors and how it goes. You know what I mean? AndJustin: wings air really cool with it, though.Tyler: I love it. I love it. I'm, uh I'll be getting it as soon as we're done.Justin: I'm actually using some of the white armor that I got from the boxes with the grand sanctum, but, uh, yeah, I I don't remember. I do have two of the white floaty mists. Uh, you can put in your base. I also I don't think you've seen it yet, but I have I did get that new base, butTyler: so did you.Justin: Yeah, the completely I did it mostly because I knew it would drive Ethan crazy. And so I loaded it up. I put it in there with absolutely nothing. And I just spaced the characters out, and I When he walked by my office, I was like, Look, check out how awesome this is. And he was upset right away. And I told him it's going to stay like that All league. I'm not gonna put anything down. If anything, I might put like a fire pit for some random reason. Like one fire pit.Tyler: Well, it's cold in the stars. Yep. It's gonna look awesome. So you can sit cross leggedJustin: and put all of my petsTyler: so they can float around. And don't forget you're missed.Justin: Oh, yeah. I should put down that white mist. I'm gonna put it in a corner just so that when people visit, I'd be like, Hey, did you see there's twoTyler: also you. I'll even give you a discount. But you've got to go in the mist.Justin: There's two of them up there, but I love that they give those little boxes. I think it's fun.Tyler: Yeah, they're very generous company. And every time I realized that we've complained about something in the game that I don't like or you don't like, I feel really bad. I don'tJustin: feel bad, and I think it's good. It's I don't think we're being fixed. It's no, I get it. ITyler: get. It's constructive. But I still when I really when I remember that it's free and everything's free. I feel like a prick.Justin: Well, I mean, you're a prick, but it doesn't mean that they're doingTyler: anything wrong. I'm not the one that went solo. Cell found. You're a prick.Justin: Yeah, but you also said that they don't deserve a merry Christmas.Tyler: No, I said enjoy your merry Christmas with the old Atlas.Justin: I think I think it isTyler: you not being able to give me the Val City waypoint is way worse than anything anyone else has ever done toJustin: me. I think that merry Christmas box makes up for the bugs. So two people complaining about the bugs. At least you got a box,Tyler: right? And he didn't play peewee a Christmas. You're not a real fan. Anyway. It's true, right, Britta?Justin: At least to log in. Get your freaking box.Tyler: You did have to be in game to get it. Well, you couldn't click on it on the website.Justin: Yeah, but you didn't have to be on that day.Tyler: I remember.Justin: I got mine today, I think because I didn't go on you saidTyler: you were on yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday I was able to finish my just for the box. No, no, I was able to finish an actor to yesterday. I think it was yesterday that I got two maps. Who? I think the boxes logging in until January 6.Justin: Oh, yes. I didn't think it was just the single day that that would be a jerk. Move. Geez, like,Tyler: Well, we're a little Bell City. Wait points a jerk. MoveJustin: How? We're at home enjoying our Christmas. If you don't log into the video game on that day, you don't get it. Uh,Tyler: enjoy your family, Bond.Justin: Yeah, I don't think anything we've said is mean spirited. And yeah, I think we're fair. We're now We're nice people in general, right?Tyler: Well, one of us, one of me. That's true. Yeah.Justin: So that's why did I look through the post that they made because they had put up a post about like, uh, some of the known issues that they were going to deal with, But I didTyler: nothing in there really,Justin: like, stood out to me like Oh my gosh, I can't play this. I will be honest. There is one that says the convert maps button in the map stash tab has been temporarily disabled as there were problems converting to the new layout. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I laughed so hard when I read that. Why fly? What? You've just popped into my head instantly. I don't know why you just made me laugh. I was like, Oh, but they're listening. Listen,Tyler: every time the game updates whether waiting for you and I hate how long steam takes to frickin update a 30 makeup date. But anyway, when I'm I mean, it gives me 10 hours. Thank you, Steam for being able to check the patch notes every time I'm just control f that I see my console game updating him like, Oh, well, maybe because they group their patches together for Consul cause they don't promote us frequently. I don't know how it works in the console back end, but that's really do. And so then I'm like, Oh, sweet, Maybe maybe a new one came out for PC today, and then I control control F on the patch notes for Xbox. You mad? I'm excited. It'll happenJustin: yet to me. When I read through this stuff there was, I think only one that maybe kind of popped out to me is like, Okay, this is actually something they need to work on. And it was releasing legion generals during legion encounters can cause a client crash. I think something that can actually crashed the game, that that's a bit of a problem. And that mostly just cause we both dealt with leagues where I mean you, especially where that was an issue. So I can I can, you know, I can see that a little bit. But when I look at their posts that they put out and this is days before Christmas, I think this one popped up. I don't rember who posted it. Uh, it still impresses me like they're legitimately looking into stuff. They know stuff there, and they're gonna fix it. And the stuff that I was reading was not game breaking. Besides, the fact that the client could crash that that to me is a bit of a big deal. I had an issue with one of the valves side areas. Who cares? It was not a big deal. It took into when I when I exited, it didn't bring me back. So where I had entered into the map, I actually thought it was cool. Yeah, I don't know. The rest of the stuff wasTyler: even something like Metamor. Fosse's not being able to be frozen were used to Boss is not be able to be frozen. It was just chill, right, Right. So I, you know, even with something that was frozen dependent, you're getting a very good chill on them, especially because it was buff. So that's not even a big problem either.Justin: Nothing stood out to me where on and again, that could have been because there have been stuff fixed that were more game breaking that I just never encounter because I hadn't gotten up there. But I didn't really stand out to Mia's thes terrible things.Tyler: Yeah, I can see the There's a There's an issue where the awakened cast on Krit um, is creating cooled elms where when there shouldn't be any, I could see that being a big issue for builds. But at the same time, you don't need the awakened jewel to have a successful build. SoJustin: you're already having a problem with an awakened version of a skill? Boo hoo. I don't feel bad for you. Even a tiny bit. A tiny bit. Put the cast on. CreatedTyler: for not to drop.Justin: Sure, I'm thrilled. If it didn't work on the lake first week of a league lunch, I wouldn't be like you wreckedTyler: my bill. No, you haven't. Go put the normalJustin: one in the one you used all the way up until you found that one. Yeah. Yeah, I saw. I don'tTyler: know if anybody's actually complaining about it, but we did see it on the bug report,Justin: right? I imagine it's probably because somebody complained about it. Ah, but yeah, I just It made me laugh. Yeah, there were. There were some really fun, uh, things that I saw in in red It actually in the last couple of days that made me laugh or not laugh with smile there. Only because I get so jealous I still haven't seen exults this league. Nothing cool has dropped yet besides garbage unique ce which is still fine. But the critic I that posted he did ah ah Contains a valuable gym. He got to You got enlightened and empower both level force. They dropped as a light on level four. Empower little for. And there was other stuff too, but oh, my gosh. I was like, What? The hacky. There was a screenshot of it, and I'm thinking in solar cell found I would leave in a heartbeat. I like buying stuff through a felon. I'm getting stuff, but it was crazy. And then, uh Okay, So there. Did you see? I don't know how often you check credit, but there was a helmet that somebody posted that was crafted. This was It was it was with that the ah, the awaken, her orb. So where you combined the two things? Now I feel like this is a lot because this helmet just Oh, man. Perfect. It's a meat. Well, yeah, it used to be. I mean, it sucks now because zombies are terrible, but Okay, I'm just gonna read through it.Tyler: I don't think they're terrible, ByJustin: the way, we're talking about a bone helmet. Yeah, Minion steal. 20%. Increased is the, uh,Tyler: got Ah. So a max. ImplicitJustin: max. Implicit of minions deal. 20% crease damage plus three toe level of soccer Did Minion Gems socket of gems. Air supported by level 18 million. Life soccer. The gems air supported by level, 18 million damage. Now, if it stopped here, you've already done really, really well. Like, really, really? Well, like last season. Last league. Oh, my God. You could have bought 20 years. It everybody wanted every freaking minion thing. Now, yeah, we're gonna continue on. Minions have 19% increase Max life minions deal 20%. Increased damage, 5% reduced manner. Reserved glow. And he had the intent on it for flesh offering. Granting an additional 21% increase. Attack speed for flesh. And then he had craft. That was insane. Lightning resist.Tyler: But nuts it is. Of course, it's incubating something just to make it even more exciting.Justin: I it just seemed fake when I read it. Yeah, I was like, Oh, my God. I would like last league. I would have liked just two of those options to force their six good things on there.Tyler: I can't tell you how much currency I've spent on console trying to get a plus three to the level of socket 1,000,000 Jim's. I still don't have it. I am trying everything. The craft. I'm going crazy. I make I I can't do it. I can't do it. And then here's this year's this.Justin: Yeah, it's just I don't know what he was crafting. Four. I did Rhea little bit about the threat, and the guy who actually crafted it kind of came on. It was like, I don't know what to do with this, which made me laugh because I would be the same way. I would have been really upset that I didn't have it last league because, I mean, it's awaken. Or that's new, though, isn't it? I mean, you couldn't have really done it, but still,Tyler: no, but it doesn't have to. I mean, I know you're against how zombies were were cut down a bit, this league, but that's not so. I'll be specific by any means. No, I know. But so respect all Dominion buffs from last later still applicable. That thing's crazy but still insane. It's still absurd. That's something like, even if you had a mirror, you would just put that somehow on display just so that you could look at it sometimes,Justin: yeah, It's crazy. I couldn't believe it when I was reading through it. So cool. Yeah, I wanted to just give a quick show boat. We've gotten some pretty cool feedback from people that have been listening and people that have given us some advice and some constructive criticism. You know, the lovely kind, But I want to just give a shout out to all those people and, ah, we don't have a list of everyone, but we're going to start making a list because it's it's a really big deal to us. It really helps us figure out what we should do better for the next ones. And let us know that people enjoy the time that we share together, you know?Tyler: Yeah. No, it's It's been really cool. It's been a lot of fun. We're only five episodes in, but every episode has been listened to more than the previous one, and it's ah, it's exciting to see how it goes, but it's ah oh, we just want to say a big thank you to people that do find this enjoyable, and we definitely would value your feedback for sure. So I know we said at the end of every episode. But just to emphasize, if you tweet us at forever exiled 82. Just positive feedback, negative feedback. Whatever it is, we do want to make this a really good podcast for you and something that lots of path of exile players would really enjoy it here. So let us know what you think. We thank you very much for listening to all the episodes that you already have.Justin: If it's mean we'll start a Twitter war straight up. That's right. Fight to the death of Twitter. All right, cool. Well, listen, Thanks for everybody listening. This, uh, this has been a lot of fun. This was Episode five of Forever Exile. The Path of Exile Podcast. I am one of your host tags, A k a JustinTyler: A key. I'm Tyler, also known as Wrecker of Days......ThanksJustin:  Check out the show Notes below. To find more information on today's episode, you can find us online at www dot forever exiled dot com as well as on Twitter at forever exiled 82

Tyler Harris has sold over 8,000 life insurance policies face-to-face in about three and a half years. He runs two agencies, over 140 agents, he runs two podcasts, and he says he's just an ordinary guy doing extraordinary things. Tyler Harris   Stefan: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show Respect The Grind with Stefan Aarnio. This is show where we interview people who have achieved mastery and freedom through discipline. We interview entrepreneurs, athletes, authors, artists, real estate investors, anyone who has achieved mastery and examine what it took to get there. Stefan: Today on the show, we have a superstar, Tyler Harris. He's sold over 8,000 life insurance policies face-to-face in about three and a half years. He runs two agencies, over 140 agents, he runs two podcasts, and he says he's just an ordinary guy doing extraordinary things. Tyler, welcome to the show, Respect The Grind. Tyler: Thanks for having me, Stefan. It's a pleasure to be here. Stefan: Yeah, man. It's really great to connect with someone like yourself. You know, we got a lot of real estate people on the show, I'm an investor myself, so I've got into house flipping, and that's been my thing. But super cool to have a life insurance person on the show. Stefan: Now people who are out there wanting to make money, one of the biggest things I find with my audience is a lot of people want to make 100 grand, they want to get into sales, they want to hustle, they want to grind. They're younger, they don't know what to do. Why did you choose to get in the insurance space of all things? Tyler: That's what I love about the whole story, and it's what I preach about when you have the average person that says, "Well I don't really do something that interesting. Why should I put myself out there on social media." I'm like, "Aye, I sell life insurance. There's nothing interesting about that whatsoever." Tyler: But man, mine was purely out of circumstance. Some mentors came into my life when I was at a really bad place. I was broke, I was in debt, depressed, had gone through a business failure, a marriage failure. These mentors came into my life and really breathed life back into me. I joke around today and say that if they were selling rubber bands at the time, that I'd be sitting here with you guys as the greatest rubber band salesman of all time. Stefan: One gong right out of the gate for comedy, man. Good for you. Tyler: They happen to be in the insurance business, and gave me an opportunity. Quite frankly, it was exactly what I needed because it was transactional, fast-paced, and it gave me the ability to build my confidence back very quickly. I put in effort, I got a reward, I put in effort, got a reward. That became an addicting process to see how much reward I could get out by the effort put in, and it just so happened that insurance was the product that we were selling. Stefan: Eight thousand life insurance policies. That's a big number, man. How many people do you have to meet with a day to make that kind of sale? Tyler: It's an insane amount. We have developed a very, very narrow niche and built a system around going all in on that niche. That's the biggest thing that I preach to people, is developing a system around working with the people that you want to work with, but developing a system in a way to where every word that comes out of your mouth, it's like if you're speaking to someone that speaks Spanish but you're speaking German, it's gonna be difficult to sell that person. But if you speak Spanish to them, then they're gonna be able to make a buying decision a whole lot quicker. Tyler: We know exactly what to say, how to say it, what to wear, what to have in our hands, the motions that we go through, the certain clothes that we use to be able to extremely efficiently sell and do a whole lot of volume. That's been the precursor to that volume. But at the end of the day, a system is all good and well, but it's the hard work that goes into that system. We've had plenty of people that have come in, and we've given them the magical system, and they've done nothing with it. The rest is left up to the individual, and the amount of hard work that they're willing to put into it. Stefan: You know, I love what you said there. There's two things I love. You say, "Rich in the niche, rich in the niche," we're Canadian, so we like to throw some French in there, rich in the niche, rich in the niche. Stefan: I got a question for you, Tyler. I've been training people for six years. I'm a real estate investor, I was buying, fixing, selling houses. I came from the private equity world. I was good at raising money, eye for design. I'd flip up to 30 houses a year, and people would see that and they'd go, "Man, I want to flip houses like Stefan," so I start coaching people. Stefan: Now I learned a dark thing when I started training and coaching people, and the dark truth that I discovered, maybe you can confirm or deny this dark truth, is that 50% of the people just do nothing. You sign up 10 guys, and half of them just literally do nothing. They buy the cake mix, but they never make the cake. They buy the IKEA furniture, they never build the bed, or whatever. Do you find that number to be ... Is it 50%, no matter what they just don't do anything? Tyler: I think it depends on what your process is. With our recruiting process, yeah, 100% in the beginning we found that. We have gotten laser focused and have gotten our recruiting process down to a science to where we know when we bring someone on, that they've got a 90 plus percent probability of succeeding, and it's through about eight different layers of a recruiting process to weed out those people. But that's only being done through trial and error of the beginning of running through a million of those 50%-ers. Stefan: Right, right, right. Yes. Tell me about the recruiting process. Eight layers of weeding out the guys. Let's hear about that. This sounds like you're joining the Navy Seals when you're joining Tyler Harris for insurance. Let's hear it. Tyler: It's almost that tough. But number one, all of our recruiting efforts, it's all done through Facebook. That's the only place we recruit from. When they come in, they got to submit an application, and then they've got to upload their resume. They've got to answer a bunch of essay questions. Then they go to their first interview, which is face-to-face with our head recruiter here in house. Tyler: From there, they're given a script that they have to go memorize in 24 hours, and then they have to come back 24 hours later and interview via Zoom, and perform that script. That script is similar to one of our sales processes. They've got to be able to perform that, then from that we give them some feedback that our head recruiter gives them some feed back on what they could have done better, and then they have to go perform that script again the next day on video to see if they can actually follow some instruction and follow some feedback. Tyler: From there, we go through and in-depth personality profile assessment. It's the one that we found that works by far the best. It takes all of them and throws them together, and puts them on steroids. Stefan: Which one's that? Tyler: It's through TTI, through a group called The Rainmaker Group, and it's incredible. It's the only one that actually has a patent tying the results to actual brain research. Myers-Briggs can't say that, strength finders can't say that, none of the other DISC can even say that. Tyler: But this one is pretty remarkable, and we have created basically a money ball style system of grading the recruits, and knowing what the probability is of them being able to succeed. They're gonna do that. They also have to do a two-minute phone call pitch on why they're the best fit, and we make them at the end do a video pitch as to why they are the best fit for that particular territory. We take all of that, we bring it to our meeting that we do, just got out of it on Friday mornings. There's six of us that watch the video of the person, hear all the information, hear that money ball grading score, and we make a decision. From there, they go to one last interview with our Director of Training, and from there we make a final decision on somebody. Stefan: Wow. I'm gonna give that a gong. That is probably the best recruiting process I ever heard. I got a very tough one myself. We make people do four book reports. They have to read all of the books, so I guess it's five books. I've written five books. They got to read five books and do book reports, and they got to pretty much be ready on day one to come in and sell. But yours is damn good, man. Stefan: Now let me ask you this, Tyler. What's the failure rate if 100 guys sign up for your recruiting process, how many make it to the end? Like two? Tyler: Maybe three, but it's low. It's two or three, and we like it that way. It's much more cost effective that way 'cause we invest heavily. The insurance industry, it's notorious for just churn and burn, bring a bunch of people on, see if they can stick for a few months and then invest in them when [inaudible 00:07:53] bring them onboard, our training and onboarding process is intensive, and it's expensive on our side. We want to make sure that the people that we bring on and we invest heavily in have the greatest possibility of giving us a return on that investment. Stefan: That's awesome. I love it. It's almost the opposite of what you'd see in the industry. I've been running a sales team now, so we do high-ticket coaching and consulting in the real estate space. I've gone through, I've collapsed five phone teams, I've failed five times. The sixth time I got a good team. Stefan: What's the key to running a good sales team? Is it having a great manager? Is it great training? Is it great recruiting? Is it all of the above? What do you think is the linchpin there to make it work? Tyler: It's certainly all of the above, but I think the most important is having the leadership, having them lead by example, and having them have been in the field. The CEO, myself, and my other two partners, there's four partners in this business, we all have been in the field, and we all excelled at an insanely high level. We know what it's like. We're not afraid to go out today and go sell with the agents. Tyler: To me, there's a big issue in the sales industry as a whole, and its current credibility versus past credibility. The way I like to talk about it in sports terms is you've got a guy that makes it into the NBA. He plays for X number of years, he's a all-star, a couple championships, retires, makes it to the Hall of Fame, then becomes a coach. He's able to coach that team because he has these insane accolades to be able to use past credibility. Tyler: What the reality is, in most organizations, they haven't been around long enough to have that level of past credibility, so it has to all be about what are you're doing right now, versus what have you done. I just want to be the hardest worker in the room at all times so that the people that I'm telling to do something, I can never tell them to do something that I am not doing myself or haven't done. Stefan: I'm gonna give you a gong for that. It's all about the integrity, man. You wouldn't ask someone to do something you haven't done yourself. Stefan: Now let me ask you this, Tyler, how important ... It sounds like you guys [inaudible 00:10:06] some technology in your training and technology in your recruiting. How important is technology to what you're doing right now? Tyler: Technology is huge. It gives us the ability to onboard our agents all over the country at one time. We use a bunch of different ... We're huge with role play. Role play, role play, role play, role play. It's the biggest asset as far as training sales people, and we have some software that we use for that. We're constantly having people certify or re-certify using that role play software. Tyler: But even down to the agents that are in the field writing the policies. Everything's done through e-app now. They're able to right at that application, have that thing submitted and have a commission check in their bank account 48 hours later. Whereas that process used to take a lot longer when you have paper applications having to be sent through the mail, and processed, and all that. It makes everything a lot more efficient. Tyler: To me, the biggest thing, especially when a salesperson is first coming onboard, you got to get a check in that person's hand as quickly, as humanly possible. Technology enables us, from a training perspective, to get them completely certified and ready to sell faster, but also that e-application process gets those commission checks into their bank faster, which builds that belief, and that's when they'll really go all in. Stefan: I love the word you use there is belief. I find that the biggest thing with no matter what you're training on is we train people to flip houses, and a lot of them have the dream of flipping a house, a lot of them watch the videos with flipping the house, they read the book about flipping a house, they come to the seminar. But until they go into the field with their coach, and see it, and touch it, and taste it, and smell it, and feel it, then they believe in Disneyland. Do you find that's the same thing with training insurance guys or sales guys, is that they got to watch someone do it so they believe it and they see it? Tyler: Yeah. I agree. They've got to watch someone do it, but they've also got to go out and do it themselves before they get to certain aspects of the training as well. Tyler: We have a boot camp training that we bring them into our home office, and it's like drinking from a fire hose for two and a half days. But we strategically put that in the process once they have been out in the field, and they've had a few weeks of success and failure. We want someone that's gotten their teeth knocked in a couple of times, a bloody nose here and there, so that now when we bring them back to training, and we can really refine those skills, now they're being able to learn things based on experience, "Oh yeah, when I was in that situation, when I did get that objection, that's how I should have handled that." Tyler: In the past, we were doing all of this training upfront, then sending them out. But some of the training you have to be in that environment first to really understand the importance as you're going through that part of the training to understand that, "Hey. Man, I've experience this a couple of times. Now I know how to handle it. When I experience this again I've got it." Stefan: Yeah, I love that. It's all about building up that bank of stories, and the stories make the beliefs, and the beliefs make the reality. I think that's really powerful. Stefan: Now Tyler, let me ask you this. Sounds like you're in almost a blue ocean strategy. You're doing something that I've never even seen or heard of anybody doing what you're doing, which is super cool. Do you think that for mastery, let's just say you're a master right now, do you think it's more important to be a master right now on the creative side or the discipline side? 'Cause I think the creativity and discipline blended creates mastery, but what do you think is more important? The creativity or the discipline? Tyler: It's a great question. I think at the end of the day discipline is what takes you there. People ask me all the time, they're like, "Man, how do you stay so motivated? You always seem so motivated." With the amount of content that we put out, I understand that could come across that way, but I always answer them, I'm like, "I'm not all that motivated. There's plenty of days where I wake up and I don't feel motivated. But it's the discipline, it's doing the stuff that you know you're supposed to do even when you don't feel like it." Tyler: To me, you can build a team that can provide the creativity that you need, you can build an environment that can provide aspects of creativity for you, but discipline is something that you've either got it or you don't. To me, I would take a person with discipline over creativity any day. Stefan: Yeah, the creativity is the starving artist. If you're delivering the daily bread, as you say, that's one of your podcasts, The Daily Bread, you got to go out there and do those daily bread actions. Stefan: One thing that I notice when I'm training people all the time, Tyler, is that I got a bunch of sales agents right now, and I'm training real estate investors. I notice that everybody has a fear of the phone. The key to success, I believe, if you're in sales, is making X number of phone calls a day, whether that's 50 or 100, or whatever that number is for that industry. Why are people afraid of the phone? Why are they afraid of picking it up, and making offers and proposals? Tyler: We see it all the time. I think it's because people don't understand the numbers in the beginning. If you haven't had the longevity of a few years of running those numbers, and knowing that, "Hey, I just know if I make this many calls, I'm gonna set this many appointments, which is gonna lead to this many sales. It doesn't matter if the last three were no, I know that if I make X number of more calls, then there will be this many yeses. It just always turns out that way." But when you don't have that, that experience on the backend, and when you're first getting started, then it just seems like this monumental task to go do, and that phone freaking weighs a million pounds. Tyler: To me, I think you have to build some level of competition. They got to be driven by something other than just self-driven. They got to be driven by, "Hey, what's this guy doing, and how am I gonna make more calls than him or her so that I can win this daily competition, weekly competition, monthly competition?" Organization is always fostering healthy competition where I love every person on our team, but I want to destroy them on a daily basis. That's how all of our agents feel. Stefan: Yeah. That's really important. We expanded our team. We went from three agents to six agents. We got a small little sales team here. It was interesting 'cause we put them in two different rooms, and as soon as we split the rooms for whatever reason, people stopped working. Then we crammed them all back into one room, and a room that's made for four guys, put six guys in a room for four, and suddenly the pressure ... I don't know what it is. They got a feel of the sweat, they got to hear the bell ringing, they got to feel it, they got to see it. I don't know what it is with people. Stefan: I'm a self-motivated person myself, so I go and I work. I'd say maybe there's one other guy in company, the manager, he's a self-motivated guy. But everybody else for whatever reason needs constant whipping. Why is that? Tyler: I think it's human nature. A lot of that ... Stefan: Gong for human nature. Tyler: A lot of that has to go back to the recruiting process, making sure that you got the right person. You're not gonna get the wrong person to do the right thing. It's just not gonna happen. I think a lot of that is based on these personality profile assessments that we do, and figuring out what their motivators are. If they're not money motivated, then what is their motivation? Tyler: We've learned so much through this process of really understanding our agents, and what their behaviors, their motivators, to understand how to get them to do the things that they maybe don't feel like doing, but we know that are gonna lead them towards success. We know that, "Hey, what's that extra 10 grand this month? What are you gonna do with that money?" Then we get them to start visualizing these things. I'm gonna give to this organization, I'm gonna be able to buy this, I'm gonna be able to go on this trip. Tyler: As we're going into 2019, an extra 50 grand, an extra 100 grand, what does that look like? What are you gonna do with that money? Let's go ahead and plan that trip, let's go ahead and plan out, let's go look at some properties 'cause you said you want to do some real estate investing this year, let's go look at a few properties, let's get some pictures of those properties. You make it a much more real than just, "Hey, Johnny. Pick up the phone because you've got to meet your quota." Stefan: I love that, the visual indicators so that they can see it, and they can believe it, and they can tell themself a story about how they're gonna have it. I think that's super powerful. Stefan: Now, what are some of those personality indicators? Tyler, you mentioned that money motivated is one. If you're gonna be in sales, you better be money motivated 'cause otherwise you're just gonna do human nature, and stay at home and do nothing. I've got a theory actually that the natural state of humanity is poverty. You can't really fix poverty 'cause it's natural, it naturally occurs in nature, and unnatural forces like training, and pain, and all other things drive people to succeed. What do you think of that theory? Tyler: I've never heard that before. That's interesting. I think the majority of behaviors are gonna be learned behaviors, but there are things that are just born in somebody that you're not gonna be able to change. A lot of that is resiliency. That's a huge one that we look for, is this person gonna get knocked down and be able to get back up? Tyler: Mojo loss is a big one with resiliency. When someone lose .... Stefan: What's mojo loss? What does that mean? Tyler: When someone gets a few nos and they get their dick in the dirt, they just can't overcome it, they can't pick up that phone again, or they can't go on that sales call the next day, and it takes massive coaching. Quite frankly, it's not cost efficient to deal with an agent that has the propensity for a lack of resiliency or for that mojo loss. Tyler: To us, it's so important. When we start to even sense that someone's losing their mojo, when they're starting down that downward spiral, we do, it's like all hands on deck to make sure that we can do everything that we possibly can on the front-end to make sure that they get right back in the game, because if they start down that process, they're gone. It's just the beginning of the end. Stefan: That's interesting. You know what, I heard a really scientific term there, dick in the dirt. I've never head that one before. When the guy gets his dick in the dirt, he's got a dirty dick. Tyler: That's it. Stefan: It's almost like it sounds like you're having an intervention with the guy when he gets into the downward spiral, into the pit of despair. What are some of the things you do to pull him out? 'Cause I think this is one of the biggest things, man. I think that what you're talking about right now is why people fail. I always ask on the show, why do people fail? It seems to me like there's an isolation, there's a pain, they get into pain, then they start numbing the pain. Stefan: I had one guy who was a hardcore drug addict. I don't know what he was. It was gambling, prostitution, or something. He was wasting all his money. [inaudible 00:20:24] gave him 10 grand. The next day he needed a $100,000 advance, always. The guy had some sort of addiction. It seems that when people get pain and they're isolated, that's when this downward spiral really happens. How do you keep them from being isolated. Tell me some of these intervention techniques that you're using to get these people back on the bus. Tyler: Isolation is the beginning of the end. When communication starts to go away, then we just know that person's on their way out. There's a couple of things that we do. Tyler: One thing that I personally do with our agents is I do coaching with them. We call it LIFE goals. LIFE stands for L is love, which is relationships; I is influence, which is the mind; F is finance, which is the business; E is energy, which is the body. We've constantly got three goals in each of those four areas for every 90 days. I take them through this process where I hold them accountable. Every 30 days, we're on a Zoom call, and I'm just literally going through each goal, and I'm saying, "Hey, Stefan. It says here we're gonna do date nights every Saturday night with your wife. How was your date nigh Saturday?" Tyler: Well, we couldn't do it this Saturday. Well, okay, what happened? Because this says mandatory date night every Saturday, so what happened? Well, we couldn't get a baby sitter last minute, yada, yada, yada. Okay. Stefan: I hate the babysitter, I hate the babysitter objections. Dude, it's 50 bucks or 30 bucks. Come on, man. Tyler: Yeah, and we take it a step further and we'll say, "Okay, great. Let's get on care.com," or whatever website, "and let's find you a second or third babysitter than you can have in your arsenal so that doesn't happen again. Hey, while we're here, let's go ahead and plan out your date for this coming Saturday?" We got on here that you're not doing carbs and sugar. How's that been going for you? Well, you know, it's Christmas season. They had this party the other night. Stefan: Dang. Tyler: I just hold them accountable to teach these areas. Tyler: It's funny, the business portion of that conversation is the least. But what we know is that a byproduct of winning in the other three areas is always gonna be an increase in production. Stefan: You know what, I feel like I'm meeting my brother here from another mother. I mean, I'm up here in Winnipeg, you're down in South Carolina. I've got my team on a thing called the High Performance Journal. It's three goals, 90 days. It's a 90-day journal, daily, weekly monthly. I said, "Look, here's the deal. You got your health goal, you got your wealth goal, you've got your relationships/happiness goal." I used to be like, "Oh, do whatever you want for your three goals, like two money, or one health." I was like, "No, man. The holistic thing, it's health, it's wealth, it's relationships." Stefan: Now influence. You said love, influence, finance, and energy. What was influence again? Tyler: That's the mind. We got a lot of people that for the very first time in their entire lives, they're meditating, they're reading books, they're listening to the podcast, they're doing all these things to feed their mind. Stefan: Yeah. I love that, man. I just got into mediation two weeks ago. I'm 32, I feel like it's too late, but it's never too late. I use this headband. I put the headband on, it measures my brain. You ever tried that? Tyler: I have. I have, yeah. It's awesome. I use Headspace. It's worked pretty well for me. I think I've logged in 4,000+ minutes this year on that thing. I just got started this year. This year is the first time I had ever meditated. I made fun of it for the longest time. I'm like, "There's no way I'm gonna sit. I've got ADD." I'm just thinking, "Sitting down for 10 minutes sounds like a nightmare," but it's been life changing for me. I absolutely love it. Tyler: When you're doing the first thing in the morning, if you can start your day on your terms ... Stefan: Oh. Bro, [crosstalk 00:24:01] I'm getting shivers over here, man. Tyler: Start ... Stefan: Stop seducing me, man. I'm getting shivers. Tyler: Well I mean, for so long I just literally from the second that I opened my eyes, it was chaos. It was self-induced chaos. It was I felt rushed, late, behind. I started thinking about it, I'm like, "Late for what? Rush to what? I control my schedule. Why do I feel like it's instant chaos 'cause I'm reaching for my phone, and I'm looking at notifications, and I'm responding to text messages and emails." Taking that first 10 minutes of the day, on purpose, with a purpose, for me, it changes everything. It changes the outlook of the entire day, and honestly, it's been life changing. Stefan: Something I made my team do with the journals, I said, "Look team, so everybody's on a journal, everybody, even including the secretary, bookkeeper, everybody's on the journal." Then I said, "Okay, team," this is what I said last week. I said, "I want you to book your sleep in your calendar. Minium six hours, just book it in your calendar, so 10:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m., or whatever. Just book that in. Sleeps on there." Stefan: Then I said, "We're gonna have three hours booked as your core 10 items." There's 10 I wanted them to do every day. I said, "Book three hours before you come to work, that's your time." You've got your six hours of sleep, you've got your three hours for your core 10 items, and I prescribe them 10 items which include a lot of these, love, influence, finance, energy, they got to discover something, they got to declare it, they got to meditate, they got to revelate, they got to fitness and fuel their body. I even got down to sex and [inaudible 00:25:30], manager your sex energy 'cause you start wasting that, you're gonna be totally messed at some point. Stefan: I said, "Look, you got your sleep, you got your core 10, then you got eight hours of work, you got then, and then you got another five to seven hours for you." I said, "I don't care what you do with the day, but you got your core 10, you hit your core, hit your sleep, everything else is just out there." Stefan: Now what's some of the things ... Let me ask you this, Tyler, since I'm a new student of meditation, I think it's gonna be a life thing for me. I actually am going to the jungle here for 40 days. I'm gonna meditate like crazy, I'm gonna grow a beard like you bro, I see you on camera. It's a great beard. What are some of the epiphany, or some of the divine wisdom you've got from the source from meditating? 'Cause to me, it's been huge. What are some of your biggest things you've found? Tyler: Gratitude. Stefan: Bro, you're just hitting gongs everywhere, man. Gratitude, tell me about it. Tyler: That's it. Yeah, as a part of the meditation, I do a gratitude journal afterwards. I just jot down three, four, five things. I try to make them different things every day that I'm grateful for, and spending that time just by myself, and just gratitude. Completely grateful for all the opportunities, all the things that I have. Some day I'm writing down, "I'm glad that I woke up in a warm house with a roof over my head and food in my stomach," some of the basic necessities. Then some days I'll take it, what I look at as level 2.0, and I'll be grateful for the things that I don't have yet, as though I already have them. That visualization has been huge for me. Tyler: But it's gratitude, man. Every single person that is listening or watching this has so much to be grateful for. There's someone else on the other side of the planet that's praying for the things that we complain about every single day. It just drives me crazy. We have so blessed, but it's all about perspective. I think that meditation gives me that 10 minutes of perspective to just focus on what's really important, focus on what I already have, and focus on where I'm headed. That's really it, man. Tyler: There's a lot of power just in that process of doing something that I said I was gonna do, first thing, and starting my day that way, that anything that actually comes from the meditation is just icing on the cake. Stefan: Wow. Wow. Now when you're meditating, Tyler, are you a mantra guy or do you just focus on your breath? What's something that you do? Tyler: I've tried a bunch of different things. Again, I'm ADD. For me to sit in silence is a little difficult. I like a lot of the guided stuff. I do use Headspace just because again, competition-wise, I love being able to show people how many streaks, how many days in a row I've done it, how many minutes, like keeping track of that kind of stuff. But I like the guided stuff because I'm certainly no expert in meditation. If you can tell me how to breath, tell me what to think about, tell me how to sit, I'd do a lot better with that than just sitting in silence and staring at the wall. Tyler: But I feel like that'll progress over time. I've tried some of ... I did a podcast with David Meltzer, who's just freaking incredible. He talks a lot about the particular meditations that he's doing, and there's a bunch of different things that I want to get into in 2019, but for me it's just starting the day intentionally. Stefan: Yeah, man. It's huge. You either come at the day with your agenda, or the day comes at you with its agenda. One of the two is gonna take over. Stefan: One thing that's been new to me that has been a revelation in the last two weeks for me is do versus be. We're here on the Respect The Grind show, and you've got hustler in the background, or hustle or something, and I think we live in a world where it's do, do, do, do, do. Respect the grind is do, do, do. Hustle is do, do, do, do, do. We're masculine so we want to do, do, do things, and what are you doing, and how can I do that? Stefan: I think the other opposite side of that is the feminine, which is be. Who do you have to be? That's more about essence rather than doing. How important is it to have that essence and the being to go with the doing? Tyler: Do a lot of that with the visualization. I just have a deep understanding that the person that's gonna accomplish the goals that I have for 2019 is a different person than the person that's talking to you right now. Stefan: Gonging that up. Tyler: In order for me to do those things, I'm gonna have to be someone else. Then it's just a journey in becoming that person. I know the person that I have to be to accomplish those things, and that person's gonna have to level up, that person's gonna have to go through some challenges, that person's gonna have to expand in a number of different ways, but I am constantly chasing after that next version of myself. Tyler: I think that's a big encouragement for those that are going through tough times, is that when you're in the middle of a struggle, if you can understand that there's purpose in this, like I'm going through this for a reason, and there is a blessing on the other side of it, but until I become the person that can receive that blessing, it's not gonna happen. I actually have to change who I am in order to get out of this, and step out of this obstacle, step out of this pain, step out of this struggle, and step into the blessing that's on the other side. Tyler: It's easy to say in hindsight when you've been through it a number of times. You know when you tell somebody that and they're in the middle of it, they're like, "Screw you. That doesn't take the gun out of my mouth. You don't understand what I'm going through." I would just tell that person, "Yes I do." It's always the same. It's always the same no matter how hard, no matter how difficult, there's always a blessing on the other side of it, and I am of the mind that the harder it is, the bigger that blessing is. Stefan: Man, you just dropped a lot of wisdom there. I love what you said, the harder it is, the bigger the blessing. I noticed on the show from interviewing so many successful people the lower the low, the higher the high. Tyler: Absolutely. Stefan: You know the lady who was living in her car, or the guy who's totally, totally bankrupt, or whatever is usually where that guy rebounds equally high. I think that's from Think and Grow Rich. Inside of every failure is the seed of a greater success. It's interesting. Stefan: There's a lot of people out there that don't really want to fail, they don't want to try, they don't want to see how dark the darkness is, they just want the light. What do you think of that attitude? Tyler: I take it to a weird place where I'm almost envious of other peoples' low, low, low, lows. When I hear somebody's story now, like the other day, I had lunch with a guy. We sat down, and we didn't know each other, we had connected through Instagram. We sat down for lunch, and he just unloaded just what was going on in his life lately. It was heavy. He's going through some stuff. At the end of just unloading this information, he says, "So what do you think about that?" My response was, "Dude, I'm so freaking excited." He's like, "Okay." Completely caught him off guard. I was like, "Man, I can tell by your tone that you've made that switch." Tyler: That's the big, it's the if you've made that switch. But no matter how low, the lower it gets the better. If you can make that switch it's directly proportionate to how high you can fly. To me, it's so exciting to watch that in someone. Someone that has right when you know they've made that transition, and they're starting that upward trajectory, they're almost on the other side of it, those are the best stories. Those are the stories that we pay to watch, and that's what life's about, is overcoming obstacles. Everybody loves an underdog story. Man, I get envious sometimes. I'm like, "Man, I wish my lows were that low. I wish I had that story." Tyler: I wish there was some college course or some mastery program we could create where we just absolutely destroy your life at a young age, like at 20 to 25, just destroy every aspect of your life, and then help you rebuild it so that you can go on. I'd much rather experience it at 25 than 55, and go on and live a great life. Stefan: Wow. You know what, dude we're getting deep. We're getting deep now, man. Talking about it, it reminds me of the movie Fight Club. You ever seen Fight Club? Tyler: Oh yeah. Stefan: Yeah, so that one part in the movie, and actually I wrote a book called Hard Times Create Strong Men, it just came out. The last of it, hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times. It's the cycle of history. Stefan: That one part in Fight Club, where Tyler Durden goes to the convenient store, and he pulls that little Asian guy out from the desk, and he throws him in the back alley, and he points a gun at him, and he says, "What do you want to be in your life? What do you want to do?" The guy's like, "I want to be a vet. I want to be a vet." He says, "All right Raymond K. Hessle," and he pulls out his wallet, and he takes his ID. He like, "I got your ID, and tomorrow if you're not on your way to becoming a vet, I'm gonna show up at your house and I'm gonna kill you." Stefan: The narrator is like, "Oh my God, what are you doing? You're ruining this guys life." He's like, "No, tomorrow Raymond's breakfast is gonna taste better than ever, and the colors will be brighter, and the birds will be singing because he's gonna be on the exact path of what he wants to do with his life, and he can say goodbye to this job at 7/11," or whatever. What do you think of that story? Tyler: Dude, it's incredible. I could not agree more. People don't need more information, they don't need more motivation, they don't need more inspiration, they need clarity. They need clarity in what they really want, like what they actually want. I love taking people through that process. You say like, "Hey man, what's your goal? What do you want?" I want to be financially free. What in the world does that mean? Stefan: Yeah, what the fuck? Tyler: They're like, "Well, you know." I'm like, "So tell me, what does that look like when you're financially free?" Well it's when I'm no longer a slave to debt. Okay, that's still ambiguous. We're getting closer. What does that look like when you're no longer a slave to debt? Stefan: Yeah, what does it mean? Tyler: We take through this process, where you just keep asking why, and what does that look like, but why? But really, but why do you want that? But why, why, why? When you dig down deep, all of a sudden you realize that the person really just wants to ride horses again because they had a horse when they were ... Stefan: Multi gong for that. Tyler: They had a horse when they were growing up, and they found so much joy riding freaking horses, and now they're in this corporate environment, and they're killing themselves with work every day, and their relationships are terrible, and they really just have no outlet to find peace again. It's like, "Oh, got it. Because you said you wanted to be financially free, but now we know, you just want to buy a freaking horse. Let's figure out how much does a horse cost, and where are you gonna keep it?" Stefan: Three thousand bucks. Tyler: Yeah. Let's do that. Tyler: Or you find out that it's, I want to be able to pick my kids up from school, and I want to be able to take this many weeks of vacation, and I want to live in this house. But until you get clear with what you actually want, it's a absolute joke to try to put together a plan to get somewhere, you don't know where you're going. Stefan: Dude, we're hitting bed rock here. We're getting so deep, we're hitting the bottom. I think what you're saying is so relevant. I can tell you Tyler, you're the real deal, man. I got to praise you, I got to appreciate you, I love having guys like you on the show. Sometimes you get a dud, you're a stud, man. Sometimes you get duds, but no, this is stud day today. Stefan: One thing that I think is super crazy, I'm really going through a lot of changes right now myself. I notice that our reality goes through the lens of our beliefs. Then our beliefs are controlled by our stories. There's a lens, on a lens, on a lens. You got reality, which is this is a cup. I got a cup here sitting on my table. That's reality. But then there's a belief about that, that comes from a story, and then inside the story when you're stuck, there's a lie. To fix somebody or make them move forward, or make them unstuck, or make them do whatever they got to do, you got to find that story, change the story, which changes the belief, which changes the reality, and edit out that lie. What do you think of that piece of wisdom that I've downloaded in the last two weeks. Tyler: It's extremely deep, but it's extremely important. Something that I'm certainly no expert on, but it's something that I'm extremely interested in, and it's given me a lot of compassion learning, is this whole law of first truths. The reason I say it gives me compassion because let's just take an extreme example. Tyler: Let's say you've got a guy that's racist. He's racist. Okay. The whole world would just say, "That guy is racist, and let's get in an argument." Okay, great. But why is that guy racist? Well it probably goes back to a moment when that guys was four years old, riding down the road in a car with his dad, and his dad looked over and saw someone on the side of the road and said, "That person," whatever that person was, color, ethnicity, "we hate those people." Stefan: Right. It was like Lion King, everything the light touches is our kingdom. He goes, "That's the dark space. We don't go there." Tyler: Exactly. In that moment, that four year old learned that we hate those people, not why, but just that we hate those people. Stefan: That's the story. Tyler: It's been developed over time, and through their culture, and that's the way they are. Tyler: It's given me a lot of compassion. That's an easy example to use. It's given me a lot of compassion for that person that normally society would say, "Well I hate that person, 'cause that person thinks this way." No, I don't hate that person. I hate that that person went through that situation to bring them up in a way that would make them think that, but until you take that person all the way back, like you said, until you unfold that story and figure out where the lie was, which in that moment, that was the lie in that person's story, is when that was told to them, and they just believed it because it was their dad and that's just what they said. They understood it and they believed it, and it became true. Figuring out where that lie is in their story and being able to rebuild from there. Tyler: But until you go all the way back, you're never gonna solve the root problem. That's probably one of the biggest problems we have in society today, is you got a lot of people that have never gone through that process, and they just think that the louder they yell, the somehow more truer the words become, which is absurd. Stefan: Yeah, we got a world now where everybody's got their own media channel, right? You hear the people who scream the loudest. Stefan: I remember Howard Stern was saying that in the old days, Howard is one of the biggest radio people in the world. He used to be offensive in the '90s. Nowadays he said he's tame 'cause everybody's got their own channel, and he just blends in now, which is crazy. Stefan: Now I was out with a girl last week, and it was a really interesting conversation, 'cause we talked about the stories and lies, I said, "You know, you're a beautiful girl. Why don't you marry? Why don't you have a relationship." She goes, "Oh, I don't want to be my parents." I go, "Okay, so what about that? Why?" We go deeper, "Oh, I don't think my dad should have had kids." I go, "Okay, so you shouldn't have been born. Okay. I get that. Your dad shouldn't have had kids." Stefan: I say, "Okay, why?" She said, "Well he didn't know how to raise us, and he was a dad, and didn't do all this stuff." I said, "Well, from your dad's perspective, do you think that he loves you but doesn't know how to love, and everything he does, ever day is his best choice?" Everything he does, even the dumb stuff, he thinks that's the best thing at the time. He's running around on this earth doing what he thinks is best, even though he's totally messing it up. Maybe he's got an 80% or 90% mess up rate, but he still loves you." Stefan: It was interesting 'cause that whole perspective flipped in that second. When you think of it from the other person's perspective, my own parents, they love me, they love each other, they couldn't figure it out. There's things they didn't know how to do, there's things that they still don't know how to do, they're just people, they aren't perfect. What do you think of that technique of looking at the story from the other person's perspective in some of your traumas to maybe reverse that or change the story? Tyler: It's huge man. It's empathy. It's being able to hold space for someone and be able to not judge, and not necessarily even try to fix. I think there's a huge problem now, especially with men. There's a problem where men don't have these conversations, men don't have real conversations. They walk around and, how are you? Great. Hey what's up man, how are you? Awesome. Hey man, how are you? Can't complain. Tyler: Meanwhile, they hate their wife, their kids despise them, their business is barely staying afloat. They're on thin ice in all areas, but they keep this alpha male, keep charging like I'm good. Everything's good. Everything's good. The reality is they need those vulnerable conversations with people that they could trust, that don't judge, that will just listen. It's an epidemic with men. Tyler: It's one thing that I'm super passionate about is creating environments for those conversations to occur because I think it's so important. We can't do life alone. I think so many of us are trying to, especially men. It just doesn't work. It just doesn't work. I think it's an extremely important thing that you just said. You've got to have other eyes on your situation because there's things that other people will see that you don't. Tyler: But that being said, there's something that I learned from a guy, he has this thing called The Art of Conversation that he discusses. He travels all over and speaks. He gave me this line to use in situations when I'm talking to people. It's been pretty transformational in the conversations that I've had. Tyler: When someone's explaining to you something they're going through, a struggle a problem, when they're done speaking, just to be able to ask them one question. It is, "Hey, do you mind if I give you some feedback on that?" That one question just opens everything up, because quite frankly, they may not want your feedback, they might want you to try to fix it, they're just trying to vent, and they just need to get this off their chest, and they're just trying to work through it themselves. That's fine. Tyler: But if they say, "Yeah. I'd love to hear your feedback," then they're giving you permission to try to give your viewpoint on what they're going through. That's been a really valuable lesson that I've learned in conversation lately. Stefan: Dude, this is a deep show. I really got to give you some props, Tyler. This is a great conversation, man. I wish we were going for two hours today, but we both got actual businesses to do. We can't just play around on the podcast. Stefan: I got a couple questions I ask everybody on the show. Tyler: Sure. Stefan: One of them is, if you can go back to the beginning, let's say 15 year old Tyler, what's a piece of advice you would give yourself? Tyler: Be patient. Stefan: Oh man, I'm giving that a gong. That's gong Friday here. Tell me more about being patient, 'cause I think that's a lost art form in today's world. Tyler: As I alluded to in the beginning of the show, it was just four and a half years ago I found myself in a really, really bad place. I was completely broke, had a bunch of debt, I had been through a failed marriage, a wife that had had an affair. I was led through about a year of just turmoil to me landing in divorce, business failure. I was just in a bad place, all around. I was out of shape, I was depressed. At that time, I was 28, 29 years old. Tyler: You had these pictures in your head of what you're gonna look like when you're 30. What's life gonna be like at 30? I see so many people. Whether it's 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, what's life gonna look like then? When you do that to yourself, you start feeling like you're behind, you start feeling like you need to play catch up, you start feeling like the odds are stacked against you, and it creates bad decisions, it creates riskier decisions than you should, and it just can really, really take someone into a bad place. Tyler: But what I would tell people is to be patient. It doesn't matter if you're 20, 30, 40, 50, 60. If you're still breathing, you've got time. There's so much more time than people realize. I'm 33, and I feel like I'm 23. I know people that are 43 that feel like they're 23, 53 they feel like they're 23. You've got so much freaking time. Tyler: The last part I'll say to that is, everything can change so quickly if you're just patient. It's almost like the more patient you are, the fast it comes, which really doesn't make any sense. But I've just found it to be true in my own life. The times where I felt the most patience, things progressed quicker. The times where I felt rushed, things took longer. If you can just believe that, if you can just hear my voice and just say, "Okay, I'm just gonna believe that, because this guy says it's true, he's experienced it," if you could just believe it, then just try it. Get yourself ... Tyler: Unfortunately it's one of those things where if you pray for patience, God doesn't give you patience, he gives you the opportunity to be patient. That could be frustrating at times. But it's in those opportunities to become patient that you really prove yourself, that you really are able to develop, like we were talking about in the beginning, the disciplines that will ultimately carry you toward your success. Tyler: Patience is huge because when you're in that feeling of being behind, or feeling like you've got so much to do to catch up, man, that's a hopeless feeling. I've been there. Man, I'd hate for somebody to feel like that when they don't have to. You don't have to feel that way because you have plenty of time. There's plenty of reasons and things that are gonna happen to make you feel pain. That's not one of them. Yeah, it's just patience. To say patience is virtue is obviously cliché, but man, this is so freaking true. Stefan: I think it's a book, The Richest Man in Babylon, where Arkad is teaching he's the richest man in Babylon. He's teaching these kids about money and he said, "One of the ways to lose your money is to expect too high of a return from it." That's the same thing. If you're expecting too high of a return, you're rushing, as you're saying, rushing through life, you're gonna lose your life. I think that it's so interesting. Time, money, all that stuff is the same, and be patient. I can hear the meditation coming out your voice, man. Live in the moment. Stefan: Tyler, top three books that changed your life, man. What are they? Tyler: Top three books. I love The Four Agreements. I love ... Stefan: Bro, I've got to stop you. You're the third person in the last 24 hours that has said that book. Tyler: Oh, really? Stefan: Yeah. I don't what, is the universe is bringing that book into my world? I just [inaudible 00:48:59] last night, so you're the third person, 24 hours that said The Four Agreements, The Four Agreements. My secretary last night at midnight was saying Four Agreements. I was like, "Oh man. I got to get the book, dude." Tell me about it. Tyler: It's meant to be. Qbq! Qbq! is a big one for me, the Question Behind the Question. I truly believe that your life, the success of your life will be determined by the level and value of questions that you ask yourself and others. That's a freaking incredible book. Tyler: I'm reading one right now though that I'm getting obsessed with, which Atomic Habits by James Clear. I am really enjoying that one, so that ones gonna be a big one for me for next year. Stefan: What's an atomic habit? Is that microing down your habits, or what? Tyler: It really is. It tells a story about a guy that lost 100 pounds, and the first six weeks, all he did was get ready to go to the gym, go to the gym, and then five minutes later go home. We're like, "Well how in the world did he lose all this weight?" Well you can't develop a habit that doesn't exist. You can't increase or enhance a habit that doesn't exist. For six weeks, he developed a habit of going to the gym. Stefan: Just going. Tyler: Then he built upon that habit, and now he's lost 100 pounds, and he'll keep it off because now that habit is ingrained in him. Tyler: So many of us, especially as we head into this new year, so many of us, we get these new goals, and let's just use the exam of working out. You haven't worked out in a year, but January 1, I'm gonna go workout for two hours, and then January 2, I'm gonna go workout for two hours. I'm gonna be so sour on January 3 and 4 that I don't go back for three months. It's just always what happens. Tyler: There's a system that he details out about these habits, and about different hacks really, like combining habits with things that you're already doing, which is very interesting. Making habits enjoyable, and just all these different aspects of habits, but what has been a little bit of theme in this show is it's those habits that create the disciplines. It goes hands in hand. Stefan: You know what, you're coming back to patience. It's coming back to patience, it's coming back to those small wins compound. You know what's something I've always said to people who are training is, "We can multiply you, we can't add." Whatever you're doing, we can multiply by two or three or four, but if you're a zero, you multiply zero by two, it's still zero. Right? Tyler: Yup. Absolutely. Stefan: Last question today for the people at home, Tyler. What is the one thing that young people need to succeed these days? Tyler: What is the one thing people need to succeed these days? Stefan: Yeah, we're talking 18 year olds, 19 year olds. People who are just coming into the game now, and maybe they're obsessed with Instagram, or maybe they're obsessed with Facebook. They're young kids, they got all sorts of ideas. What's the one thing you'd say to those young kids starting out? Tyler: Man, they just got to be willing to do the work. You got to be willing to do the work. The idea that you're somehow gonna stumble into success is a joke. If you have the audacity to want to live an extraordinary life, or have extraordinary things, have extraordinary success, then it's gonna take an extraordinary amount of work. That's the only way you get there. One of my favorite sayings of all time is that, "If you seek discomfort, the world will deliver you pleasure. If you seek comfort, the world will deliver you pain." Stefan: Wow. That's deep. Tyler: I've gotten to a place in my life where I'm just constantly searching for ways to make myself uncomfortable, and getting comfortable with the uncomfortable, if that's possible. But putting the work in when you don't feel like it, when it doesn't make sense, all those things, they're uncomfortable. But that's what ultimately will get you to whatever success is to that person. Get clear on that, and then just be willing to absolutely put the amount of effort in that's required. Stefan: Wow. Tyler, you know it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you, man. You are a evolved spirit. I really appreciate this. Stefan: How could people get in touch with Tyler if they want to know more? Tyler: Yeah, so Instagram, Facebook are the main spots. It's @tylerharrispage. You can go to tylerharrispage.com. It's got all my links there. Would love to connect with everybody, I respond to every single message that I get. I would love to talk to people. Stefan: Tremendous. Tyler, thanks so much for being on the show. Respect the grind, brother. Tyler: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.  

We are celebrating our 100th Episode by bringing you portions of the best podcasts selected by the FCM Team. Stacey, X, Jerricho, Logan, and Seth are all interviewed regarding their favorite FCMS episode and share why that guest was the most memorable for them. We want to thank all of our listeners for their continued support. We will return all new and all fresh on Monday, March 26th with our MADE IT IN MUSIC Podcast.————————————Episode 100Full Circle Music Show– Hi, I'm Seth Mosley from Full Circle Music, and man am I excited, this is episode 100 of our Full Circle Music Show podcast, and not only that, the day that we're making a massive announcement. And what is that announcement? It's that we are re-branding. Yes, we're changing the format, the title, everything of our podcast to make it even more packed with value, for free, for you guys. And the new title, drum roll please, is the Made It in Music Podcast, by Full Circle Music. It's resources for music makers just like you who wanna go full-time in music, and stay in. So I just wanted to do something a little special on this episode to go along with the announcement of the Made It in Music Podcast, episode 100, and what we're doing this week is we're bringing you a best of episode. We picked our very favorite moments from the Full Circle Music Show and broke down just some really key points, things that we think you would get a lot out of, things that we personally got a lot out of. I'm Seth Mosley, thank you so much for listening. Here with Stacey Willbur, VP of publishing and A&R here at Full Circle Music. Man, I loved that you picked the Ginny Owens episode, 'cause it was one of my favorite not only podcast episodes, but what a lot of people who're maybe gonna go back and listen to this clip don't realize is that it was recorded at one of our Full Circle Academy songwriter retreats. And man, if I haven't told you already, the people that you have relationships with that you've been able to bring in to pour into our students is just absolutely incredible. So Ginny was one of those, she was at our last one, and I feel like I probably got more feedback on her than a lot of speakers that come in. That's where this podcast was recorded at. So what stood out to you about that, what made you pick that as your favorite moment?– Well, it was my favorite moment because, obviously 'cause we were there, we were actually in the moment, it was an experience. It was Ginny talking about very simple things, three key elements of songwriting. But what I loved about it is that she weaved her own story into all three of those elements. I loved hearing her story wrapped up into all of that.– Yeah, she talked about it being, something that I had not heard, and I think you said the same thing, that she compares songwriting to being a journey with a friend.– A journey with a friend, that was like an a-ha moment, I think, for so many, because I don't think everybody looks at it that way. It's a job, it's this, but as a friend, and the closer you get to a friend, you get to know each other, you get to know their hearts, you get to know their stories, and the same thing with songwriting. The more you spend time… Writing every day, getting to know your craft, understanding the different elements of songwriting, the better you become and the better you know yourself as a songwriter.– Yeah, and she talks about how it is a sought after treasure, too, I thought that was such a cool way to put it. What did she mean by that?– Well, it was interesting 'cause she said it was a sought after treasure pursued by an enemy. Which, the enemy, as she describes, are distractions. The distractions in your life that keep you from doing the thing that you love doing. So what are those things and how do you keep those distractions from keeping you from doing what God's plan and purpose is for your life, which is songwriting.– Yeah, and I think, man, she just… There's podcast episodes that we've done that I feel like I just kinda wish I had like a notepad the whole time, 'cause she just kinda drops quote after quote after quote, and one thing that you shared with me, that I totally agree with is that good is the enemy of great, and perfection is the enemy of creativity. That was, I thought that was brilliant when she said that.– Yeah, and I think, especially in this industry, we hear a lot of, oh, that's a good song, that's a good song, that's a good song. And we tend to leave it there, and we don't encourage each other to strive for the great. I think striving for the great is harder. ‘Cause it takes going back and rewriting, it takes time and effort. The good is, yeah, this is good, you know. But the great, I think, is you dig it in a little deeper. And she really shares that in the podcast, she shares the struggles that she went through as an artist. And just in her life personally to get to that point.– Yeah, so good. Well I'm really glad you picked it 'cause it's one of my favorite moments too.– Awesome.– Here's a clip from Ginny Owens on the Full Circle Music Show live from the Full Circle Academy songwriter's retreat.– [Ginny] I want to offer, just based on my experience as a songwriter over the past billion years, I wanna offer three key elements of a life of endless songwriting bliss. So three key elements to maintaining a songwriting life. So the first one is, songwriting is a journey with a friend. Show up every day so that you can go a little further together. Songwriting is an art form. The more you know the rules and master the skill, the freer you will be to let your heart guide the process. And, songwriting is a sought after treasure guarded by an enemy. In order to capture it, you must fight every day of your life. Listening, like, two different types of listening that I call active and passive listening. So, I really love pop music, so active listening for me is like, when I work out in the mornings, just rolling the Apple, new Apple, like whatever, pop playlist, or what they're playing at Apple List or Spotify, you know, playlist, and learning. What are they doing in the songs that you're hearing that you like? How are they creating hooks? What do the rhythm things sound like that they're doing. Things like, Chainsmokers came along and they sort of created this chorus, where you don't have to soar up in the top, you just do this, like, ♪ Baby hold me closer in the backseat — ♪ I probably shouldn't be singing that at the Christian — But you know, it's just this tiny little space of a chorus. So there are trends that you start to see as you listen to music. If you're a songwriter-ish type person, more of a James Taylor type person, then you can listen to current people that do that, like James Bay or John Mayer. Hear what they're doing, sort of study their technique. But the other thing is passive listening. And what I guess I mean by that is falling in love with music. One of the things I've recently discovered about myself is that I'm too busy thinking about… Analyzing songs, and I actually need to go fall in love with music again, 'cause it's just too easy to be critical. And so what I've learned is, probably the easiest way to do this, which is not something that streaming really lends itself towards, but to go get people's albums. And just listen to the full album and continue to immerse myself in it, and be patient. ‘Cause I'm sure, maybe some of you guys are like this too, I'm so impatient. I'll listen to half a song and then I flip to the next song. That does not create and inspire love for music. I think those things are key for deepening our skillsets, growing our skillsets, educating ourselves. And then there's another aspect, just as we talk about kind of this skill of songwriting. It's really simple, but I think it's really important, especially for new writers, and I kind of call it the accessibility scale. So on one end you have the more cerebral, the more personal kind of songs. Those are the songs you write for your grandma, or your brother, or a wedding. And then on the other end are the more super-commercial songs. So like, Bon Iver is super cerebral. Taylor, super commercial. Andrew Peterson is pretty cerebral. Tomlin, Jordan Feliz, super commercial. And so the more cerebral a song is, the more it's kinda written to please the writer. So most of those things fall kind of more in the middle, they're not generally purely one or the other. But the more cerebral, form matters less, it's kinda in the writer's head, and obviously the more commercial a song is, the more singable it is, the more melodic, the more many people can kinda follow what you're doing. You gotta know the difference. If you wanna write commercial, study it, learn the techniques, listen to the Full Circle podcast every week, because there's an art to expressing yourself that way. But if you're gonna write about family, if you're gonna write something super personal, don't let that out for critique, 'cause you don't want to hurt yourself in that way. You know what I mean? Protect the things that are really personal to you. And the more you kind of know the skill and the art of songwriting, the more you're gonna know how to do that. Skill, taking the journey, ultimately helps with our biggest challenge as songwriters, which is fighting for your songwriting. And if you don't believe me, I bet you do. Everybody probably believes that it's a fight. Songwriting is a treasure that's guarded by an enemy. And so in order to capture it, you must fight every day of your life. Not to be all dark and wage war-ish, but, we gotta wage some war. The hardest part of songwriting is what? Songwriting. You know, you always got something else to do. Or there's always a voice in your head that says not to do it. And I promise, lest you think it only happens to new writers I have this happen every day. I've just finally learned, oh, this is part of it. This is what I'm gonna fight every day. And especially when you've been doing it a long time, you can kinda even get more in your head, 'cause you're like, what if I don't know how to do anything current? So if you give up, then the enemy will win. So what exactly is the enemy? I do like how Kevin Pressfield, who wrote the Legend of Bagger Vance, but he has a book called The War of Art which I would highly recommend you all read. There's some swearing, but read it anyway. But he calls the enemy resistance. And he says any act that entails commitment of the heart is a reason for resistance. In other words, any act that rejects immediate gratification in favor of long term growth, health, or integrity, or any act that derives from our higher nature instead of our lower, will elicit resistance. Resistance cannot be seen, touched, heard, or smelled, but it can be felt. And the more important – get this. The more important a call or action is to our soul's evolution, the more resistance we will feel toward pursuing it. Ouch. And resistance takes all different forms. Sometimes it's you, right? It's the lack of discipline. That's what it is for me, a lot. I just wanna do all the other fun things. And I wanna think about songwriting, really I do. But, maybe I'll get to it. That's why scheduling is so key. And there are voices in your head, and that's why scheduling and showing up every day is so key. It diminishes the voices, I promise you. Sometimes it's 'cause you got a eat, and so you gotta work. So that's also why finding that time every week and putting it on a calendar can be so awesome to do. Another key in fighting resistance is knowing the people who are in your space. Knowing the people who are awesome and can hold you accountable, like probably some folks you've met here, and learning the people who are not safe for you to play music for. Another way to protect what you're writing, and who the safe people are not, when you're fighting resistance. Now, for those of us who are believers, who are people of faith, we know there is a deeper resistance from an enemy that is full-on against you. And especially when it comes to pursuing a gift that God has given you to inspire others.– X O'Connor. I love it, we're here in the studio on this exciting day, episode 100.– 100.– Recapping some of our favorite moments from the Full Circle Music show, and… Tyler Bryant.– Tyler Byant, man.– Good choice.– Man, my favorite, dude, we sat down with him, I remember it was kind of last minute, I got a call early in the morning like, hey, I think we're gonna do some Tyler Byrant interview today. So I remember driving down, and I was super pumped, I'd loosely known him from being in bands around Nashville and I was like, I love this dude's music, I'm excited to talk to this guy. And to sit down with him, he's a young kid, you know, and he's just got his head on in a way that very few other artist, songwriters, any musical person does, he just realizes that hard work comes above all else, everything in life. And this guy, his band is successful, but not necessarily at radio. No real radio number ones, no nothing like that, but he plays hundred thousand seat venues. It's like, that blows my mind. And to just hear him speak about hard work. No one's gonna work harder for you than you're gonna work for yourself, so take every opportunity that you've got and just make something out of it.– Yeah, I love it, and I think he even shared in the episode something about, they do a lot in Europe.– Yeah.– And I think a fan, they were playing somewhere in Spain and a fan had like, tooken a night train like across…– Across the continent, literally.– The entire continent to get there, and they were so pumped about it. And you can just tell that when an artist is engaged, and the fans can tell that you really care, as the artist, they're gonna care.– Yeah, absolutely, and… that was something that he also spoke about a lot in this interview is relationship building. Not just with the people around you, but with the fans. The fans can feel that level of commitment that you have to them. But then on the business side, too. They've been around labels and all that stuff a lot, and I just love the mentality of, be honest with the people you're with. Even if it's a hard conversation to have with somebody, the honesty is gonna preserve that relationship in the future. I think he talked about them leaving their label to kind of go out on their own, and the conversation he had with the label after the fact, like, hey, you guys are still always on the list at a Shakedown show, come out any time, you guys worked hard for us, just, it's time for us to go do something else. And I love that mentality.– Yeah, and we went and saw them in Nashville at… Was it 12th?– 3rd and Lindsley.– 3rd and Lindsley, which is a really cool venue. And it was one of the best live shows I think I've ever seen.– Yeah, they go for it. It's so tight, but it's just raw rock and roll. It was a fun night, I hadn't been to a show like that in a while.– No click tracks.– No click, it's just guys on stage just going for it, rock and rolling. I loved it, man, it was so much fun to just sit there and just, be like, yep, these guys own it. This is great.– Inspiring.– Inspiring, for sure.– Well here's a clip from the Full Circle Music show episode with Tyler Bryant of Tyler Bryant and the Shakedown.– [Tyler] We've talked about it a little bit, but I come from a blues background, I learned to play from an old bluesman in Texas. Even as a kid, I was offered a record deal, and it was like, we're gonna set you up with other kids and we're gonna start a band, and I was like, no, man, I just wanna play the blues. I wanna make, like, I remember Lyric Street records gave me a little $10,000 check to go make some recordings. I think they were legitimately upset when I handed them back like three Freddie King covers that I had made. You know, it's like, what did you expect, man? And I still kinda have that mentality where, I don't know if you guys ever have dove into this on your show, I'm sure you have, 'cause it's something that I feel like a lot of artists struggle with. It's mixing art, something that really moves you, and commerce. Let's eat and let's survive, and so all we try to do in our band is have a little bit of both, you know?– [X] Yeah, yeah. So touring has been your bread and butter. Let's just talk about that, how do you get invited out on a AC/DC or Guns ‘n Roses Tour without radio, without big number one chart topping songs?– [Tyler] It's hard to say, honestly. I think one, you gotta believe in what you're doing, you have to be convicted every time you put on a guitar. Whether it's in a writing room, whether it's in a coffee shop. That's what, you know, I have kids ask me at our shows who have bands, like, how do you get on these tours, how do you get these shows going? And it's like, you literally play every show you get offered. Whenever I was starting out, I had a fake email account. And I was the band's manager, my name was like Sarah, or something like this, and I represented, this was before the Shakedown, I represented Tyler Bryant.– [X] What's the Spinal Tap manager?– [Tyler] Yeah, and it would, there was another time where it's like, I literally called the box office of the House of Blues. This is when I was younger, I called them every single day until they finally told one of the booking agents, this guy won't stop calling, he wants to play. And he called me and was like, dude, you can't call the box office and book a show. And I was like, but, can you book me?– [X] Yeah– [Tyler] And he's like send me some recordings. So I sent him some recordings and some videos and he put my band on for Dickie Betts. And then I called the Dallas morning news, and I was like, my band's playing, opening up for Dickie Betts of the Allman Brothers, I think you should come film it and do a story. And they did, and it's that kind of hustle that I think is, what I've learned that we have to do because it's, any time we've waited on someone else to do something for us we fall short, and so it's, I think those, it's funny because we were at CAA, the booking agency for a long time, and they did great things for us, and after about a year and a half of not touring as much as we'd like, we thought, let's make a change, let's move agencies. But we had such a good relationship with our agent that he'd become family, it's a guy named John Huie. And so we left. We were on the road supporting Billy Gibbons from ZZ Top and I get a call from Huie going, he's just like, I love you guys and I wanted to know if it would be okay if I pitched you for the AC/DC world tour. And, of course we said yes, but this is someone who's not our agent. So that's where… Maintaining relationships, and always shooting people straight, and even if it's a tough conversation going, like, I think we have to move somewhere else, because we're not getting the love here. They kill it with country acts out of Nashville, and I'm sure that the rock department does great, too. We just weren't getting the love that we needed. Because maybe what we were doing didn't move them there, but I think even when a relationship has to stop, it doesn't – professionally, it doesn't have to stop emotionally and I think that's, you know. We're all from the South and believe in Southern hospitality and shooting people straight even when it's a tough conversation, and I think that's helped benefit our band.– [X] Well I love that, because there's so many bands that we come across that are just constantly complaining about their teams. They're like, my label's not doing this, my manager's not doing this, we don't have our publisher getting songs on sync, our publicist is not scheduling – it's just excuses and complaining about people not doing stuff for them. And what I'm hearing you say is like, screw that, do it yourself.– [Tyler] Oh yeah, absolutely. We just made our own record, and I called a few of the people from Universal Republic after we got out of our deal, and it was sort of an, I think both parties were like, this isn't really working for us. We weren't giving them what they need to do what they do best, and they were like, you guys just aren't setting yourself up to win. But I talked to a few people from the label who were like, wait, you guys aren't with us anymore? It's like hey, listen, you're always on the guest list at a Shakedown show, you guys come out, thanks for putting in the work, man. Because it's hard to find people to work for you, and it's hard to find people who will work as hard as you will, so you have to do it yourself. Or at least, even like when it comes to making music videos or setting up photo shoots, or finding the direction. I feel like that has to come from the artist, because I feel like a lot of artists fall short when they're waiting on someone else to show them the direction.– Here at Full Circle Music studios with Jericho Scroggins.– Hey, hey.– Thanks for being on the show today, buddy.– Thank you for having me.– I love the clip that you picked, it was a Michael W. Smith interview, it was honestly one of my favorite ones to do. Why don't you talk just a little bit about what stood out to you from that, and why people should go back and listen to it?– Yeah. The initial part of it is how he was talking about the start of his career, and even how that's when he got married with Debbie, that was like in '81. So when the Amy Grant thing and all that kind of stuff, it was a very busy time for his career. And so they saw a bunch of marriages around that time falling apart. And so he does think it's hard for people to tour 200, 250 shows a year and keep a healthy marriage. So it was super cool to hear how he… One thing I didn't know about Michael and his career was, he was never away from his family more than two weeks. And it was just, like, mind-blowing to me thinking about that, just knowing his career and that kind of stuff. And so just how he goes through and talks about the priorities of that. You do have a career, but you also have family, and making sure they know where priorities lie and stuff like that, and his family always came above his career.– Yeah, and we get to interview a lot of super achievers on the show, so it's always cool to see that, you know what, they've not only got their stuff together on a career level, 'cause obviously Michael W. Smith's the top of the top, but he was really good about keeping accountability in place, as well.– Right. Yeah, that was definitely another part of it that I really liked, because, it's not only, like, when you go out and do your thing and that kind of stuff, still keeping a good group of, a team around you, that makes sure you're still doing what you're supposed to be doing. Whether it's heart-wise, faith-wise, even mind-wise, you know what I mean? Like making sure it's, even having them help him keep accountable to making sure he makes it home every two weeks. Or being a servant on the road, and things like that.– Yeah, and another really cool thing that I think you mentioned was this idea about talking to the younger you. What did you mean by that?– Yeah, there's this cool part where, it's the giving the advice to the younger you part. And it really stood out to me when he said, if I could tell the younger me, I would say it's not about you. And what he means by that is like, just earlier on realizing… Yeah, you're given these gifts and stuff like that, but realistically the gifts help other people, it's being a servant, making sure you're using the gifts for the right reason. Everybody wants to be successful, but it's like, how you wanna be successful dictates a different way in the way you look at it, and that kind of stuff, and that's his thing. Earlier on he looked at it a little bit differently, like, how many CDs does he sell, how good was the merch and that kind of stuff, and he realized pretty early on after that, he's like, it's not about that. It's not about you. Is he reaching the lives, is he reaching other people, and I think that goes across anything we do. The stuff we work on, even we don't go out there and tour with it, but it's still putting in the 100%, because at the end of the day, it's not about me.– That's right.– It's about that.– Yeah, that's good. Well here is a clip from our Full Circle Music Show episode with Michael W. Smith.– [Seth] Thinking back over all the years being an artist I think one of the things that I struggle with and a lot of young artists, or writers, or producers struggle with is the whole balance of being a creative versus being a good family man. How have you found balance over the years to kinda keep all of that together, what's the secret for that?– [Michael] Well, we made the rule, Deb and I, when this thing started really taking off, in the Amy thing, and then did the Friends tour, Big Picture tour, we started having children.– [Seth] So you were married early.– [Michael] I got married in '81 to Deb, so it'll be 35 years this year.– [Seth] Congratulations.– Thank you.– That's amazing.– [Michael] She's awesome. But we knew, I think we probably really knew, probably when I did the Lead Me On tour, which was… Probably the most successful, other than the Change Your World tour it was probably the most successful tour I've ever been a part of, 'cause we sold out arenas, me and Amy, all around the country, and in other countries, as well. And we just started seeing people in our genre and in other genres, when it came to being entertainers and all that sort of thing that marriages were falling apart left and right. And so we, I remember just having a talk with Deb and just going, you know… If we don't make some rules, there's probably more chances of us being a casualty than not. And we're not gonna be a casualty. And so we just made the rule, I'm not gonna ever be gone more than two weeks from my family, ever. Even if I had to cross the pond, and come back, and cross it again. And I was never gone from Deb and the kids for more than two weeks. Had a little aircraft, and I don't talk about that much, it was worth every penny, I thought, I've gotta get home to my family. And a lot of times I'd do a show and I would literally walk off stage, and got in a car, and I was on the jet and I was home at midnight and I'm driving carpool at 7:15. I did that for twelve-and-a-half years. And I think if you talked to my kids, I think, I think if you could have a private one-on-one, I think they would all say, we were more important to my dad than his career was. And now I got all these young bands, I got some of these young kids are all starting to come to me and ask me exactly what you asked me. And I think that's part of my role in the future is to sort of be a fatherly role and try to help kids. I just don't think you can do 250 shows on the road and keep a family together. And they say, well, we gotta pay the bills, we gotta make the house payment. My response is, then buy a smaller house.– [Seth] Wow. Is there anything that you would kinda say to the younger you when you were first getting into it that you're like, okay, you might wanna do that a little differently. Is there anything that kinda comes to mind like that?– [Michael] Well, I think heart-wise, I mean, obviously, we all grow up, we all make mistakes. If we really are seeking the Lord, we all get a little wiser as we get older, but I'd probably go back and tell myself at 23, 24 years old, I'd probably just say dude, it's not about you. That's probably the first thing I would say. I was so, like, how many records did we sell, and did we sell any t-shirts, and it was just so like… And it's hard, 'cause you're excited, and you wanna be successful and I think I just wish I'd have seen the bigger picture a little bit. And that's probably what I'd say to these young kids going, why are you here? Reconnect with why you're here, because you're not here to be a superstar. But there's nothing wrong with being successful, at all, but it just can't drive you, it can't just encompass everything that you do, it just can't. I always say, what's your contribution, think about… Even in the hard times, and trying to get the thing off the ground, are you making a contribution, are you changing somebody's life? So, it's that kind of stuff I'd probably say, and then, if I had to say something on the musical level, I'd say it all starts with a song.– X O'Connor sitting here with Mr. Seth Mosley, founder of Full Circle Music. Getting ready to talk a little podcast action. So, your favorite episode out of the, we're at episode 100 now.– Crazy, absolutely crazy.– Yeah.– And your favorite one was with Chris Houser under very interesting circumstances, from what I remember, kinda spontane, spontaneous.– It was very spontane, I like that slang.– You know, it's kinda like pre-Fontaine, that runner guy, but it's spontane, it kinda flows off the tongue.– This was a spontane moment, we were in the car, actually on a radio tour, and one thing that I've learned by doing a podcast is, we're really, as sort of journalists, trying to bring interesting stories to our audience about stuff that they'll actually care about, you kinda just have to be ready at all times. So I've got this little pocket recorder and a couple microphones, I stuck it in the bag 'cause I felt like we might have some interesting conversations on this Matt Hammitt radio promo tour. I went out with him at the beginning of the year to promote his first single, ‘Tears', off his record. And so I just brought it with me, and we were spending a lot of time in the car, so I was like, okay, there's gonna be something good. So it was under interesting circumstances, but I think, what I've loved about our podcast is when our guests kinda just go off the rails a little bit and just feel free to tell stories, and just crazy. And Chris is such a great story teller. So it was one of my favorite episodes. And not only because of the episode itself, but really because of my story and how I met Chris in the first place. And one thing that he did that stuck out to me that I'll never forget, we touch on that in the podcast, as well.– I love it. And he's known for hitting as many radio stations as humanly possible in a very brief time. I believe you said he has a record. Do you remember what the record is?– He does have a record, he said he hit 13 stations in three days.– Now, were you a part of that 13 stations in three days?– I think we did, maybe, we might have done eight in two days.– Eight in two, that's still rather impressive.– It was a decent few. But I love it because, so often in this business we think about the result more than the relationship. And one thing that he drove home that you'll hear in this clip is that he talks about, really what he does for a living is to get to go talk to his friends about music that he loves. He actually cares about the people. And there are very few people that I know in life, let alone in music, in anything, that have spent three decades serving one group of people. And that's just dedication.– Man, you said it right there.– Yep.– It's powerful.– I'm ready to go back and listen to the episode myself.– Me too.– So let's jump into this episode with Chris Houser.– [Seth] You talked about you started tapping into your skillset which, I don't even know if you remember this but when I first moved to Nashville, I talk a lot about this on our podcast that my first record that I got was Newsboys, Take Me to Your Leader, and my first label record I produced was this one called Newsboys Born Again which you were working on.– Yes.– [Seth] And I think I met you once, maybe at Wes' house. Then I saw you, I don't know, a month later or something and you were like, hey, Seth, it's good to see you, and the fact that you even just remembered my name —– Oh, wow.– was huge.– [Seth] To me, your competitive advantage is you actually care about people and you're great with relationships.– [Chris] Thank you, man. That means a lot, and again, it's a, this is a small industry we're in, and I'm in my 30th year of promotion, radio promotion. And I think I'm starting to get it figured out, but every once in a while something comes along and surprises me, but I've seen a lot of people come in and go out from this industry, and one of my favorite clients, Brash Music, who had Aaron Shust, and Gunger, their MO was life's too short to work with jerks. And I also believe very strongly that you reap what you sow, and whatever you sow, you reap way more, and you reap way later. It's just the way it is. You can go out to a field with a handful of seeds and throw it out into the field, you don't go out the next day and say oh my gosh, look at all the growth. It takes a long time, but all the growth that comes into a field from one handful of seeds. And so I've always tried to be about sowing good seed, doing my best to love people well, and not losing myself in the process, which at times has been a challenge for me. Yeah dude, I don't remember meeting you, and I wish I did, but it's been an amazing thing to watch your trajectory as well, and to be doing this. We're on a promo tour right now.– [Seth] Yeah, that's the fun thing right now, we're out with an artist named Matt Hammitt.– [Matt] Yeah, what's up?– [Seth] We're actually promoting his new single, Tears. So this is what you do all the time, right?– [Chris] Yes, so these radio stations, we're visiting six, seven radio stations in two days, my record is 13 stations in three days.– [Seth] Wow.– [Chris] That was up in the Midwest, that involved taking a high-speed ferry across Lake Michigan, from Muskegon, Michigan over to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, dropping off one rental car, picking up another rental car and continuing to go. But these radio stations have a hard job, they've got 50 to 75 singles getting work to them every week by 30 to 35 record promoters, both between labels and indies. And so one of the ways that we get noticed is by bringing artists directly to them. And Matt is so beloved for, you know, radio stations are gonna play Lead Me every day until Jesus comes back. It's just a matter of fact, no one's gonna get tired of Lead Me by Sanctus Real. And so I never worked a Sanctus Real record, I've watched them from afar and been so impressed with them and their ministry, and so, there are other people you could go to. But you came to me to take this record to radio, I'm very honored by it, but in addition, I'm moved by it. I have to love, this is what I tell people. I make a great living talking to my friends all day long about music I love.– [Seth] That's a pretty good job.– [Chris] So I turn down the records I don't love. I take the records that move me, and the records that I love, by artists that I respect. And, I'm calling my friends, I'm not calling adversaries, I'm not talking to people at radio that I have to buffalo, or steamroll, or belittle, or slam a phone down and swear, and call them jerks behind their backs. I love these people, these are my friends, so I get to just go bring Matt and you, Seth, to my friends for the next two days. And these are people who work hard, like me, back in the day, they do it way better than me but none of them are making major amounts of money. They're doing this for love and calling, and yet, they're the venue, they're the avenue that we will go through to get this song on the air. And it's already impacting countless, thousands of people around the country in a very, very short amount of time.– [Seth] Yeah, well even, on the Sirius Highway, or Sirius XM The Message, they debuted the lyric video, we were just looking on the way up here and it's already at 37,000 views and 893 shares, which is a pretty substantial metric for a brand new label, essentially relaunching an artist.– [Chris] Yes.– [Seth] So that's a huge thing.– [Chris] Yes.– [Seth] Are you ever surprised and shocked with like a song that you think is gonna work doesn't work, or a song that you don't think is gonna work just blows up?– [Chris] Yes. I would say, my joke on that is, through years of therapy I've been able to mellow out a little bit. But there were times 10 and 15 years ago that I was sure a song was gonna be a smash, and nobody wanted it. It's like these 115 radio PDs got together in a smoky room somewhere and all decided what they were going to tell us promoters for the next year, and then they'd all go like, break! And they'd clap hands and they'd walk out. And so when I would get this massive pushback on a song, in the early days of this kinda promotion, I would go like, I don't know what a hit is anymore, I've lost it. And then I would go to the next step, I'm like, Am I even a Christian? And then I'd go all the way to like, God, are you even there, if I can't… And so, again, years of therapy have helped mellow me out, and life experience, just to get into a better spot of going, you know what, sometimes I'm wrong, a lot of times I'm right, and sometimes it's the radio stations that will say, oh, no, that's not a hit. I try to slow the no, I try to slow them down, because it's like, if you make a pronouncement, a negative pronouncement on a song this early, it's gonna be that much harder for you to admit you're wrong eight months down the line, six months down the line, let's just calm down, you tell me no now, that's fine. I'm just gonna find 20 people that you respect and get them to play the song, and we'll come back around, we'll just keep talking about it.– [Seth] And those people they respect, is that other radio promoters?– [Chris] No, no, other radio stations.– [Seth] Radio stations.– [Chris] Other radio stations. So then they're watching around to see who else, 'cause it's all defensive posturing and maneuvering. It's all, they don't wanna add a record, a radio station will say, we'll never be hurt by a record we don't play. Do you get that?– [Seth] Wow.– [Chris] We can never be hurt by a record we don't play, meaning, we might be hurt if we go too early on a song that our listeners end up not liking. So we'd rather watch the landscape and see what people are playing out here, and it's like, okay, that's fine. There are leaders, there are followers. If you need to be a follower on this, no harm, no foul, we're just gonna keep working this.– So I'm sitting here with Logan Crockett, VP of marketing for Full Circle Music and, man, what a ride it's been, we're on episode 100 on the Full Circle Music Show and we're talking about our favorites, favorite moments, and why listeners should probably go back and listen to some. And I love that you picked the Tony Wood episode. So what stood out to you about that, and why should people go back and listen?– Yeah, for sure. So with me, my perspective on the podcast is probably a little bit different from a lot of the rest of the staff. I've been around for just over a year, now actually working for Full Circle, but initially, listening to this podcast, I was, completely from the outside looking in, I was just, kinda like a lot of the people probably listening and/or watching this, someone just trying to kind of find their lane, their path in the music industry. And this episode with Tony Wood and this clip that we're about to play just really stuck out to me as something that I've never, ever forgotten. For so long, I mean I've been pursuing the music industry for years. And it always felt like, man, if you can just get kinda that one meeting with that publisher or that record later, or whatever company, just meet that right person and get that connection. If you can just do that, that's kind of hopefully the gateway to greater things, that kind of, getting that meeting, basically. But in this clip, Tony explained that it was so much more about getting meeting number two than about getting meeting number one. Because it really does make sense, getting meeting number two means that, if you had meeting number one, they have to like you enough to invite you back. And the way that Tony explained it in this clip, it was just, it was such a massive mindset shift for me because it just, it reformed my entire strategy for what I was trying to do with the music industry. It became so much more about okay, yes, meeting one obviously has to happen, but actually that's the easy part. So my goal was how do I get meeting number two? Meeting number one kinda flew out the window, and everything became about how do I score meeting number two, no matter what relationship I'm building, no matter what opportunity I'm pursuing. The goal became meeting number two.– Yeah, and in music, it's often about finding someone who is really where you want to be. And kind of emulating them. Wasn't there something that stood out in the episode about that, in particular?– Yeah he, Tony had kinda got his start thanks to someone named Tom Long, who was kinda that first person who really believed in him and helped introduce him to other people. And that was another big mindset thing for me, too, was this idea that, there's a lot in the music industry that you can control, there's a lot of things that you can do yourself to push yourself forward, but, it's going to be really, really, really difficult to get where you ultimately want to be if you're not finding someone else who can kinda elevate you. You need to find a champion, or a guide, someone who can get you further along the steps that you need to go.– I love it, and there's also this concept of, do your homework that Tony hits on, what did you mean by that, 'cause you were saying that that stood out to you.– Yeah. So yeah, again, all this stuff is in the clip that we're about to play, but Tony, it's a very kind of quick comment that Tony mentions, but when he was first meeting these other writers around town, and other publishers, he said that he did his homework on who they were and what they were up to. So basically, that really stood out to me 'cause now working for Full Circle, we have a lot of people who come through a lot of our events and things like that, but it feels like a lot of them haven't done their homework. A lot of them don't know like even, who is Full Circle and what are the different things that we do, what songs have we been working on, things like that. Normally I'm on a lot of calls with people through our academy and things like that, normally I have to completely explain almost from ground zero, what it is that we do, who we are, things like that. Not the case for everyone, but all that to say is if you are pursuing the music industry, before, and this kinda goes back into meeting one versus meeting two but before you get meeting one, make sure you do your homework, so that way you're giving your best first impression, and you're having amazing talking points when you do finally have the opportunity to sit down and have those interactions.– That's good. One thing that I love that we get to do with the academy, with our events, with courses and all of this stuff that we're doing is that we're helping dreamers, essentially. And there's kind of this common thread that we've heard, and I think you mentioned that Tony hits on this in the podcast. But this concept of, just trying, just giving it a try.– Yeah.– And why is that important, do you think?– Towards the end of the clip that we're about to play, Tony mentioned kind of his ultimate motivation towards, the big jump to moving to Nashville and pursuing all these opportunities. And his whole thing was like, you know, there's so many great opportunities in life. You don't have to be in the music industry, not everyone is meant to be in the music industry. The music industry is very competitive, not everyone who wants to be in it is going to be in it. But Tony's whole point was, that just really resonated with me was this idea of man, like if I don't just try and kind of give it everything that I have, a no is okay. Like if I meet the right people, and if I'm perfecting my craft and it's not good enough to be where it needs to be for the industry, then at least I tried, and I can live with that. But his big thing was like, man, if I don't try and give it all that I have, I won't be able to live with that. And that just resonated so much with me at the time, 'cause again, this was like, I think early 2016. So again, at the time, my involvement in the music industry was a little limited, I'd recently gotten out of college with my music business degree. I had a really great marketing job, but I wasn't that involved in the music industry, I was like running sound with my church and some things like that. But I knew that… In my being, I'm like, the music industry is where I ultimately want to be. And I was in a place where I kinda had a good job and all that sort of thing, but it was like, man, can I live with it if I don't do all that I can to get myself down to Nashville, to pursue these opportunities. And Tony just saying that, it's like, it was like he was speaking for me in that moment. Like yes, like that is ultimately where I'm at and I decided, there is no way that I will be able to live with it if I don't try, and give it all that I have, no matter what the outcome is.– And here you are.– Indeed.– Fruit of the podcast, that's awesome. Well here is a clip from Tony Wood interview on the Full Circle Music Show.– ASCAP was real helpful to me early as a songwriter, there was a conference that they offered like about five or six Monday nights in a row in October, where they brought in writers, producers, publishers, some great instruction. Something in that that was so significant, songwriter Dwight Liles said, the hardest meeting to get in Nashville with a publisher is not the first meeting, the hardest meeting to get is the second meeting. And it just killed me in that moment, 'cause I am such an introvert. And they would use the word networking and I hate the word, 'cause networking feels like, walk across this room and introduce yourself to this stranger, and tell them why they need to get to know you. And it's like, it's against everything within me, I'd rather just take a beating than do that. And I was like oh, no, if the hardest meeting to get is the second one, I'd better be ready when I get that, when I finally get the nerve up to go introduce myself, I gotta know that I'm ready. So that sends me into a month or so of panic about what do I do, what do I do. And I came up with this idea, Tom Long was the head of membership at ASCAP at that time, and he had put the conference on. The conference had happened three or four months earlier and I'd been stewing on that. And so here was the first professional initiation for me, I picked up the phone and I called Tom. And I said Tom, in the course that you moderated, somebody said the hardest meeting to get with a publisher is not the first, the hardest is the second. I need to be ready, I need somebody to tell me if I'm ready. And here comes the ask, Tom, will you be that man for me? And Tom says well, nobody's kinda ever asked me that, but okay, I tell you what, every couple of months, give me a call, bring me some of the lyrics that you're writing, and I'll take a look at them and tell you. I can't tell my story without such gratitude to Tom, Tom Long, for that. So I take the first meeting with Tom Long, walk in, the three current pieces of paper that I've typed up, put them on his desk, sit there, quietly feeling my organs separating while he's reading them all, just the tension, just dying right there. And Tom reads three and says, I've got some people you need to meet, get in the car. Drove me around to four publishers. I had done my homework, I knew who the publishers, I knew these people, I knew who their writers were, I knew the songs that they were having success with at that point. The first three dismissed me pretty quickly and go, eh, thanks but no thanks, and the fourth one was Michael Puryear who was with a small company, Lorenz Creative Services that was going at the time. They had just signed Steven Curtis, though before his first record, that was his first home, and they had recently signed Marcus Hummon who wrote God Bless the Broken Road. So it was kind of this small little boutique thing that was going, and Michael is more of a lyric guy, and he said, oh, why don't you start hanging around here some, and let me see if I can get some of our guys to write with you. And that was… The life changing moment for me, I'm so grateful to Michael for early belief in me.– [Seth] Sure. So, backing up, 'cause just the move to Nashville is such a huge leap of faith in the moment, I don't wanna gloss over that, for you and your wife. I'm sure that was just like a monumental thing. How does somebody know when they're ready to do that.– [Tony]Nobody knows, there is no knowing, there is nobody that's gonna say the time is right. It is that line between faith and foolishness. That's so close in there, you don't know. But I remembered, there was a point when I was finishing up school and still writing frantically, accumulating lots of sheets of paper. And they were in a box kinda under a bed. Early 20s, and I remember thinking, I can't imagine hitting 50 and not knowing, and not trying. I could live if I dared to show those to somebody and they said, ah, thanks but no, there's really not a place for you. But I couldn't live with myself if I didn't at least try. I remember sometimes feeling almost claustrophobic at that thought like, if I hit 50, and I've never at least tried, I almost couldn't breathe thinking about that. So that was some of the motivation that, you know if they had said, no thanks, go away, I could've lived with that, I could've gone and gotten, I could've worked at a church and been real happy with that, knowing that I tried. But not trying just was killer.– [X] Hey everyone, this is X O'Connor and you've been listening to the Full Circle Music Show, they why of the music biz, hope everyone enjoyed our episode 100, the special episode. It's impossible to believe that it's been 100 episodes already. And again, this is our last episode for a little bit, we're gonna be coming back at you with our brand new, re-imagined, rebranded podcast, the Made It in Music podcast, it's gonna be starting Monday, March 26th. It's so exciting, we're so pumped. So again, remember, March 26th, that's a Monday, that's gonna be the official beginning of the Made It in Music podcast. And we have some huge names already lined up for this, you guys are gonna be super excited about what we've got to come. It's gonna be more great content, for free, for you. We're looking forward to seeing you Monday, March 26th.The post Episode 100: The Best of The Full Circle Music Show appeared first on Full Circle Music. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.