Podcasts about mary it

What can you do to keep your voice in tip-top shape? As podcasters, we use our voices a lot. Chances are, that essential instrument of yours has temporarily abandoned you in the past. Whether the symptom stems from getting sick or from overuse, waking up to croaks, rasps, or silence is an awful feeling, especially if deadlines or interviews are looming. In this timely episode, Mary returns to the mic on the heels of her own voice loss to talk swollen vocal folds and slug tongue with Nic Redman, a vocal coach and voiceover artist who has spent almost 20 years helping professional speakers hone their voices. Nic is a font of healthy voice inspiration, sharing everything from the importance of hydration (and the truth about which beverages count) to warmups that will get your tongue trilling, your lips flapping, and your vocal cords folding. Come to terms with what you can and can't control about your listener's reaction to your unique voice and be reminded about what a privilege it is, literally and figuratively, to have a voice. This episode is packed with light science and exaggerated facial expressions you can practically see, all in the interest of keeping you talking for years to come. Join Nic and Mary for interactive vocal warmups and other voice health tips: Silly faces and weird noises that can help your voice even when you're sick Why you need to get out of your own head and stop self-editing your voice How to sound just as energized at the top of your episode as you do at the end The benefit of vocal warmups beyond just keeping your voice healthy Links worth mentioning from the episode: Podcasting For Business Conference - https://pfbcon.com/ Enter to win a ticket to the conference by sending your voice note - http://www.VisibleVoicePodcast.com/ Listen to Episode 70, How to Use Research and Reports to Guide Your Podcast with Megan Dougherty - https://www.organizedsound.ca/how-to-use-research-and-reports-to-guide-your-podcast-with-megan-dougherty-episode-70/ Engage with Nic: Learn more about Nic's work on her website - https://nicolaredman.com/ Listen to the Voice Coach podcast - https://nicolaredman.com/voice-coach-podcast/ Get your copy of Nic's book at www.onthemicbook.com Connect with her on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nicredvoice/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voicemail with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Transcript with Audio Description: for this particular consultation. MARY: Yes. Thank you. NIC: The first thing is definitely hydration. That's easy, right? Just drink loads. Loads, and loads, and loads of extra fluids. People get a bit hung up on what you can and can't drink. The truth about hydration is it's very, very simple. All fluids count except alcohol. I'm really sorry if that's your tipple. Just chase that whiskey with water. > You can drink tea. It will still help you hydrate systemically within the body, which will hopefully, at some point, help the vocal folds and the mucus and the vocal folds. Even coffee, shock, horror, it's still fluid, it still counts as systemic hydration in the body. There are some elements of diuretic, i.e. it makes you go to the toilet a little bit more. But the actual more recent research about coffee is that you would have to drink an absolute tonne of it for it to actually have any effect on your voice.  So people can relax about coffee, espresso, martinis, whatever you need before you hit record, it's fine. I mean, of course, the caffeine might exacerbate reflux or the dairy might have an impact on the thickness in your mouth, but you can still just have your coffee for hydration. So, look, just hydrate loads. Because if you're coughing or if you're ill and creating more mucus that's thick, you will need the extra fluids to help counterbalance that. The first thing is hydration.  Two easy things, hydrate and rest. But we all know that rest is not easy. Sometimes it's a privilege to say that rest is easy…  MARY: Mhmm.  NIC: …shout out to anybody with a job or caregiving responsibilities or small people in their lives…  MARY: Yes.  NIC: …but if you can rest, that can really help because your body needs time to process the illness. And the more you can rest, the quicker you'll get over it. If you have to, like, record straight away, like, there's no getting over it. There are some rehab exercises you can do, but I say this with caution because obviously, if you have no voice, sometimes there's nothing to do but rest. As in rest your voice as well. I always say to people, manage the expectations of the person who's expecting you to record.  So if you can at any, any possibility delay it, push it back, you know, give yourself an extra day, because you do want to be on point. And it's better waiting a day and be slightly after deadline and sounding great than, you know, showing up half-cocked, as it were.  So that aside, if you do need to record, there's a group of exercises called, um, well, shorthand. We call them SOVT or Semi Occluded Vocal Tract Exercises. And they're designed to help release tension in the body, in the vocal tracts, regulate the breath flow, the airflow, so that the vocal folds vibrate nice and easily. And when they're swollen a little bit, if you're ill, or covered in extra thick mucus, these exercises are really good at just waking them up, encouraging them to close in a more consistent and easy way, which makes speaking better. So those exercises, although they have a big fancy name, are very simple. It's just gliding up and down your range with a partially occluded mouth space. For example… MARY: Yeah, I need an example. NIC: …Yeah. Oh, it's fine. I've got loads. Uh, this one > gentle lip trill is a nice one. MARY: Oh, I love those. Yes. NIC: Those do elude some people, though, so please don't worry, they're not for everybody. And a couple of nice other examples are big puffy TH sounds. So if you stick your tongue out and let your cheeks get nice and puffy like a hamster or a chipmunk and just go as if you're. > You've got your tongue right, like you're doing a TH sound, you know, like this. > So imagine you're just saying this, but you never get past the TH. > MARY: That's a good one. NIC: Okay. These. > That creates exactly the same environment as the lip chill does in your sort of throat area. And then the other ones you can do are any puffy fricatives, really. So these sounds like a puffy V. > You want to be aiming for a lovely feeling. Like the sound is all vibrating at the front of the mouth, rather than stuck at the back. So you don't want, like, >...  MARY: Yeah, that would hurt. NIC: ...you just want to. > Or a Z > or because different accents and different languages have different sound inventories, a puffy worse sound, like you're, you know, you're doing a trumpet with your mouth. > MARY: I can totally picture you doing that. That's awesome. NIC: What a great job I have. I'm glad there's no video. > I've got my face on the Internet doing this far too much. So it's a real free treat to not have my face in. So those exercises, I won't go into the science of it, but basically they put your larynx in a really happy, easy, free place, and they make it really easy for the vocal folds to close.  So if you're ill, what you might find when you glide up and down. And you could try this if you want you might find a few gaps in that glide. So you might end up with something that sounds like M. > Right? Which is because there's swelling because you've been coughing a lot or there's a lot of mucus and mucus in the way. But the thing to do is just keep gently gliding and keep gently gliding because what you'll find is your body, your incredible brain and body go, oh, that's weird. We usually make a sign there what's going on, you know, and I mean, this is not obviously the science, like the, there's real proper neuron stuff happening here. But this is how my brain processes it. It like sends everybody to work fixing basically inside.  So if I'm used to going, > and my body goes, > then my brain's going to go, whoa, we need to fix that. There's something wrong. And it starts helping you. And basically it encourages the vocal folds to close nicely and that will help you sound a little bit more healthy, vocally healthy, and get the mucus moving as well. MARY: Oh, I like that because yeah, so I lost the voice on Sunday, didn't do anything without it. Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, got a little bit of it back. And I was doing some of this stuff yesterday because I thought, oh, like, what's taking it so long?  So I like your idea of like, the brain needs to make this happen. And so I think that's why I was like, ooh, today, yay. I have this interview. My voice is actually working for once all week. So this is nice. NIC: Oh, that's good. The other things I would add to complement the sort of comfort whenever you're getting through this is, people often love steaming. So taking a, well I have this peculiar looking sort of ceramic inhaler with a tube that looks a little bit dodgy to be honest, but you fill it with hot water and you suck on it gently and it's a really nice soothing in the vocal tract.  And then the other thing you can do as well is the sort of. The newest modern day version of steaming is using a nebulizer, like a personal nebulizer. So a little handheld device. There's one internationally you can get that's called VocalMist. They use a 0.9% saline solution and you use that for 10 minutes. And what it does is it helps the mucus on the vocal folds and it reduces, here comes the science, it reduces phonation threshold pressure for up to one hour, i.e. and makes your vocal folds vibrate more easily for a period of time. So they're really good for supporting your health, your vocal wellness, if you're under the weather. MARY: Wait, how does a nebulizer work? When you were describing it, I was thinking of those neti pots for your nasal sinuses. But is that similar? NIC: Yeah. So it's like an electrical device. If you Google, like, handheld, handheld nebulizer, you'll see it's like a little white sort of rectangular cube, like box, > I suppose, with a little spout on it. And you screw off the top, and you put a little vial of saline, note 0.9%. Very important. That's the same makeup as the saline in your body, as your mucus and stuff. And then you turn it on, and it mists, turns it into a mist.  MARY: Oh. NIC: And the mist actually reaches your vocal folds, which, with steaming, they're not sure. The droplets of steam actually hit the vocal folds. These days, the droplets of steam are bigger than the drops of mist, so it soothes your throat when you steam, and it helps thin out the mucus in your mouth. It feels nice. It's like an internal hug. But they're not actually sure if it gets to the vocal folds anymore. Whereas the nebulizer, the science and the research today, it currently shows that the mist does reach your vocal folds and hydrates them from the outside in. So the mist is absorbed at a cellular level because it matches the chemical makeup of the mucus in there, and therefore it creates a friendlier environment for the vocal folds.  So they're really good if you can get your hands on one. In the interest of disclosure, if I've been out to a party and had a few too many whiskeys, sometimes the next morning, a little hit on the nebulizer really helps bring my voice back to life. > I've been on the karaoke, doing a bit of a Bon Jovi. MARY: Yeah, those are the hacks that most people are, like, looking for. What's the hack? NIC: But, like, not pretend. We're all perfect. I have an episode of my podcast, actually, called how to keep your voice healthy during a festive party season. Nice. Because that's when I lost my voice, was when I went to, so I used to do a podcast called the Voiceover Social Podcast. And we have meetups, and I went to the Christmas do. I was already a bit under the weather because I host that party. It was like chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, like a wedding. And then my husband to stand up, and he was doing a gig in the evening, and me and a load of the people from that went to the standup gig. And were chat, chat, chat, laugh, laugh, laugh, chat, chat, chat. And I woke up the next day and I had no voice. I had no voice for 10 days and I lost almost a five figure amount of money in that week anyway. > So that's why I have that podcast episode and that's why I have all the hacks. MARY: Yes. Things we learn from our mistakes. NIC: Exactly. Win, learn, never lose.  MARY: Yep. Okay, so let's get out of the sickness mindset, but into the, when we're just doing our regular thing. We're going to be recording a podcast episode. Vocal warmups,  NIC: my favourite.  MARY: Okay. Honesty on my end. Now, even as a professional myself, you know, I do voiceover stuff too. I worked in radio, I know all the things. But there are many days that I don't even do proper warmups and I feel like it has to do more with the podcasting side. Like if I do the voiceover work, I'm doing the warmups. But when it comes to podcasting, it's more slack, I think today we're, we're trying to record so many different things for our show that we're like, we're going to do one task and the next task and the next task and we don't do the warmups.  So not necessarily looking for that hack or shortcut, but what can we be doing to quickly warm up before we go and set up our microphone for our recordings? NIC: Yes, I'm a big fan of, I suppose what, you know, they would call it the personal training world, compound exercises. So, you know, doing things that, that work multiple areas or doing a couple of things at once. So the very least I do, and I'm, I'm with you, Mary, because sometimes I drop the ball, or sometimes as a voiceover, something comes in and they need it back now, you know, and you have to jump in the booth. There's always time. There's always time to do something if I'm really honest with myself. But sometimes I take it for granted.  So what I love is, for example, a really, really simple one is some nice big, gentle kind of luxurious shoulder rolls and what I call a chewy hum. So you get a hum on the go that gets your lips nice and buzzy, but then you chew your lips roaring like you're eating something. So, again this is audio related, so I'll describe it as much as I can, but big shoulder rolls and then >. MARY: Like you're. NIC: And again with the hum, you're aiming to feel a really nice buzz at the front of the face, not > at the back, it really helps to kind of close your eyes and imagine you're eating something dead yummy. > I find if we're going to put an intention behind this, so you're. And then you can glide up and down your range. > It's a really good one. Oh, that felt really nice, actually. MARY: Yeah, that was great. NIC: So what you're getting there is you're releasing the shoulders, which is great for nervous tension, great for when you're on a microphone, because we often. The shoulders do a lot of our communicative talking for us as well. They're up, they're down, you know, so given the shoulders, release is really nice for the voice. The humming gets the lips released. It also encourages the voice forward a little bit, if we're thinking a bit like, sort of image based with resonance. And it also gets the airflow regulated. And, um, it gets the vocal folds vibrating and woken up as well.  And then, of course, when you glide light up and down, you're increasing the variety. You're showing your voice the high notes and the low notes that it can reach. Because a lot of the time with podcasting things, sometimes people feel they don't sound as vocally varied as they thought they did when they listen back. So, they listen back and they go, oh god, I sound really monotone or dull or. I thought I sounded more excited about that or something. So a very easy glide like that just shows your body the range that it's capable of, so it gives you more options. So that's one really good exercise.  And then I'm also a big fan of exercises that help you go straight into either, you know, practising your intro or practising a few questions. So there's an exercise again, grateful there's no video right now. But if you stick your tongue out on your lower lip like this was called, slug tongue. That's what it was called when it was taught to me, as in my book. I think if you want a picture, stick your tongue out on your lower lip and you're letting your mouth kind of relax down. If you imagine your best sort of Macaulay Culkin shocked face. MARY: Ah, yes. NIC: And that your tongue out and then you're going to speak through days of the week. Well, the first thing you can do is speak days of the week, months of the year and count one to ten with your tongue out like this. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, like that. But what you can do with that one is take the intro of your podcast and say it with that slug tongue hanging out. So you're like, hi, thank you so much for joining me, welcome to the Voice Coach Podcast. My name's Nic Redman and today we're going to be talking about warm ups. Then you can take your tongue in and go, Hi, thank you so much for joining me today. Welcome to the Voice Coach Podcast. My name is Nic Redman and today we're going to be talking about warm ups.  So you're taught you're sort of practicing your intro to get your vocal energy going. You're sticking your tongue out, which sort of makes it harder. So that kind of wakes up the energy of the voice a little bit. You know, it wakes up those other articulators because when you put your tongue back in and you speak, it's like, oh, my god, this is so easy now. So that's a really good one for practicing with your intro or your questions. And, this is the final one. I mean, you'll have to just stop me at some point, Mary, because I could go on forever. > Like, I literally wrote the book on this. MARY: Yes. NIC: If you put your finger, pointy finger, horizontally across your lips, as if you were doing a moustache mime, you know, in a sketch show,... MARY: Yes NIC: …but down, lower, in front, like between your lips, and then you're gonna go. > And then you're going to glide up and down your range. >  MARY: Yes. NIC: Really nice for loosening the lips, getting the breath going, getting the vocal folds and the range going. But you can also do that one with your intro. So. > Hi, thanks for joining me today, my name is Nic Redman and this is the Voice Coach Podcast >  And then you can go straight into it with a really big vocal energy. Because some of my podcast clients say by the end of it, I'm really warmed up, but the start always feels a bit low energy and I always end up going back to re-record my intro because I feel like it doesn't match. Do you know how relaxed I was at the end? So this is a really good one because the last thing you want to be doing as a podcast is having to re-record and edit stuff. I mean, who can be bothered? > So doing this, > oh thank you so much, > gets the energy going so you can go in with a bang. MARY: I love this. And also because when, when I do this work too, with people that they're, like, really stuck on this, I need to sound professional thing. And I'm like, warm ups is not about professional, it's about being fun. It is about going outside of your comfort zone. And so we need to act silly. This is a silly thing… NIC: Yeah.  MARY: …And I feel like a lot of podcasters don't realize that even when they are behind the mic, they don't have to put on that professional hat. You know, this isn't a broadcast radio, BBC, NPR, CBC-type show. This is something that is about you and your message and your voice.  And so when we connected over Instagram earlier this year, it was really about how as speakers, we're not able to control how someone reacts to our voice. So there's two parts of this, right? It's the, listeners has their own work to do to figure out what's bothering them, but also, you yourself as the speaker, you've got some work to do too. So, tell me more about this. Expand on it. NIC: Yeah. So one of the things that I come across most with podcast host clients who come to me for help, both independent and in corporate space, is this idea that they're constantly focused on how they sound.  MARY: Mhm.  NIC: You know, podcasting comes through the filter of the edit, the production, the sound effects, the intro, how it looks, how I'm presenting it, what is my logo, what is my image, what is my tile for, like for Spotify and everything. And the same happens with the voice. And people are like, how should I sound? What do I sound like? I need to sound professional, I need to sound engaging. And they come to me and they go, I think I sound to X or I don't think I sound Y enough. And that's the problem for me is this self monitoring and editing of the voice when you're using it, rather than focusing on that connection with the listener and going, doesn't matter how I sound, it matters how they feel. And it's about sort of changing that focus, you know, so we did connect about that whole, I cannot control how someone hears my voice.  Your audience may or may not be aware of the intricacies of Irish politics, right? But I'm a Northern Irish person of a particular religion, right? Technically, people may hear my voice and get really angry because I sound how I sound. Right? If they're from a particular part of Northern Ireland, for example. Now, I cannot do anything about that, in the same way that you might have a listener who has a teacher that they didn't like that sounded like you once. So in their head they carry this vocal baggage with them, this auditory baggage that they kind of listen through a lens with.  So I always say to people, listen, who cares? Because you literally have no idea who's listening to you and you cannot do anything about it. All you can do is be as yourself on the microphone as possible. Or as whoever you need to be on the microphone as possible. And your listeners will find you. And the ones who you annoy will not stick around. And they're not your people anyway. MARY: Yes, Exactly. NIC: Because when we're worrying too much about how we sign, we forget about what we're saying. And that's the point. And funny enough, this links to warm ups. Mary. Because the reason I think warm ups are important is, yes, it's about saving time in the edit and in the record. So, A, you save money, B, you save sanity and your relationship with your editor. > But also, if you warm up, then your voice is ready and you don't have to think about it. And you could focus more on the words. You can focus more on the impact that you're having and the connection you're trying to make with the listener.  So warming up is incredibly generous for your listener and also really good for your voice. Because you are saying, this is important to me. It's not about being professional. It's about caring about what you do and caring that the information that you're going to say is getting to the people in the way that it needs to, to make them feel in the way that you want them to. MARY: I love that tie back into the vocal warmups because that was one of my thoughts. And I'm sure, like, a lot of people too, is like, when you said, who cares? Because I say that too. I'm like, who cares what other people think? It's about how you want and want to feel in this moment. But them who cares? Is easier said than done. So tying it back into that vocal warmup piece is so key. So thank you so much for making that connection and for sharing that. NIC: Yeah. Because it's, warm ups help you get to know your voice and enjoy it. And you said fun. You said warm ups are about having fun. And I completely agree with that. And you know, if you've got a guest, do them with the guest, because you're darn right that guest is going to be nervous or excited. Like, do a few with them. Break the ice, record it, don't record it, doesn't matter. Sure, it's all content, let's be honest. But, like, it's really, really generous, important to do your warm up.  And I have to say, you're right, loving your voice and appreciating how you sound and not caring how other people think you sound is a big piece. And I don't say that lightly because I have done a lot of work with people on that. But remember that if you're. If you're making the step to do a podcast and put your voice out there, you clearly believe you have something to say that is bigger than your ego around your voice. MARY: Actually, this new client of mine said the exact same thing where she's like, this is the biggest fear I have is sharing my voice. Because she used to be a journalist, it was more about writing, and she, now that she's got her podcast out there, she's just like, oh, oh, I'm so embarrassed with my voice. So, what would you say to someone like that who's still embarrassed about their voice? NIC: I would say to them, remember what a privilege it is to have a voice, both literally and figuratively. I have worked with many people who have a big voice baggage for very legitimate reasons. You know, whether it's bosses, or family members, or social circles who have told them their voice is not valid or that they are not worthy of being heard. But we have to take responsibility for the fact that we have a voice in the first place.  So we have to step up to that fear and go, it's incredible that I have a platform, and it's incredible and a privilege that I have a voice to start with. So you just have to kind of give yourself a shake, do the silly warm ups, listen to yourself over, and over, and over again. And the more you listen, the more you'll get used to yourself and your sound and the more you'll hear the beauty in it.  And just remember how amazing is it the only thing we have in podcasting that is unique. The only thing. I'm sorry if you think your idea for podcasts is the most unique thing in the world… MARY: No. NIC: …It is not. It will have been done before. The only unique USP you have in podcasting is your voice. And that's the truth. MARY: Yeah, that's right. I say that a lot because your voice is like a thumbprint. Everyone's is unique. Like, I sound similar to my older sister, sure, but it is still me. The way I say something, the tone, the words I use, it is still you. And I love that you bring that to the table as well.  So you've been working in the podcasting space. You have your own show too. What have you seen that's changed or shifted at all in regards to voice in the podcasting scene? NIC: Thankfully, we're seeing a lot more diversity than we were.  MARY: Yeah. NIC: There's still a lot of work to be done with giving the underrepresented shows more space and more possibility to grow, I think. But there's definitely more diversity out there, which is really exciting. And luckily, a lot more women… MARY: Mhmm. NIC: …which is exciting. As someone who identifies very much as female, this is a really hard thing to be objective about. I say that slowly because I always get subjective and objective confused. And I have to really say it really slowly for my brain to. So, because I am such a podcast nerd, I obviously listen to loads of podcasts, but I also have my preferences. So, I feel like what I think is exciting in podcasting is probably because of the podcasts that I listen to. > MARY: That's right. NIC: But I just love that it's still an open forum. If you have a phone and access to the Internet, you can do a podcast in theory. So I just love the fact that it's still. I know there's a bit more, you know, chitter chatter about things becoming more commercial and it losing some of its grassroots charm, but the truth of it is, anybody can still do it, which is pretty cool. MARY: Yeah. Like you were saying, you have your own show, you have your own podcasting journey. And I've learned quite a lot from your over 80 episodes of your, the Voice Coach Podcast. They're great because they're. They're short and to the point. But what is your. What's been your biggest challenge of making the show for yourself? NIC: Oh, I mean, for me, it was starting as a weekly show and having to keep it up. So when I started that, the person who was producing, I had a team helping me with it. I was like, I'm going all in. And she was like, do weekly for a year and then see how you feel. So I did weekly for, yeah, a year, which was intense. MARY: Oh, yeah. NIC: I mean, even with somebody, you know, a decade's worth of experience and entire degrees in my subject, like, I, it was still like, okay, come on, I. Stay focused, stay strategized. Plan the next 10 episodes. Where are we going with this? What's happening? What's it linking to? What am I launching next? What are my people getting out of this? You know?  So it was keeping it focused and within, like, in line with the strategy and not just going, oh, god, I need an episode this week. I'll talk about hydration. Okay, so definitely keeping the consistency and the quality up, I think, was hard. And for me, when I first started, this was interesting, but I, and I think I reflected more on this when I wrote my book. When I first started the podcast, I think if I'm honest, I was doing it, it might, this is a bit weird, but I don't know if it's deep or whatever, but I felt like I was trying to prove things to my peers rather than serve my audience in a way. In the sense that I felt like I had to show all my academic research, all the links, all the facts, you know, make sure everyone knows I've got a master's degree in Vocal Pedagogy. I'm very well read, da da da. I'm very good. And I know this because of this book, and I know this because of this recent article. And I know this because of. I was like, my listeners don't care about that. They just want the fucking exercise, I feel like.  So as the show progresses towards, you know, the end of the year of weekly, I suddenly realise, obviously some of my peers listen and that's incredible and they're very complimentary about it. I love that. But it's for my clients. The podcast is for my clients. So I think keeping myself on track and remembering that I don't have to prove myself and my academic standing within this world was an interesting journey and I could just be myself and just do the work that I love doing for the people that I love doing it for was an interesting one.  And when I listened to the first one versus, you know, episode 80, whatever, I think you can really tell the difference in that, both my delivery and you know, at the start I was like, word for word scripting it and then reading it. I'm very good at reading something…  MARY: Right, exactly, yes. NIC: …as if I'm not reading something because that's being a voiceover,...  MARY: That's right. NIC: …so nobody could tell. But towards the end it was much more bullet points. > I wasn't scripting it anymore. So that was an interesting challenge. MARY: I love that mindset shift. I went through that too, where when I started the show and even my business in podcasting, because I worked in radio for 20 years, was downsized in 2018. And then I thought, maybe I'll try this podcasting thing. Is this a thing? And I went into it thinking, oh, I need to show that I have the experience. I know what I'm doing. I've, you know, I did this, I did that, and I didn't have the academics behind it.  And it feels like that societal hierarchy of if you have a university degree, you are better, you know, people will like you more or whatnot. And I didn't. I went to a two year radio program 20 years ago, like, that, that all gets into your head. And I did the same thing. I scripted a Lot. And sometimes I still do, depending on how busy I am and stuff. Because I am a voiceover artist, I can do that. But yeah, I think when you get to that point of, I'm serving my listeners for my clients, for my people. Yeah, they don't care. It's back to that. Who cares, part.  NIC: Yeah. And it's funny, you know, one of the things that people talk most about with my podcast is at the time I had a water bottle that was really squeaky when you took the lid off. And people still come up to me and go, and every time I listen to your podcast, when you take a drink, I take a drink, > you know, like, because I was like, you know, um, I can't be bothered editing this squeak. So every time I need to take a drink of water, I'm going to take a drink of water. We do it together. It's collective, you know, it's like a collective hydration experience. And people always come up to me and go, I've got a squeaky bottle. Or like, you know, it's like Pavlov's dog. Every time they hear a squeak noise, they have to take a drink. > So it's those imperfections that I think can also become the charm. MARY: Oh, I love that. Yeah. Because it's, it's an audio medium, so those squeaks work so well. So in that spirit and me still losing my voice, we're going to take a drink, everybody. NIC: Let's do it. Cheers. Or as we say in Ireland, sláinte.  > MARY: Yeah, so helpful. So, so helpful. I, I cannot wait for your show to come back because you're right, I do want just the little tips and the little tricks. So what, what are your podcasting plans? NIC: Oh, god, I have been mulling it over for far too long. I'm still mulling. I'm trying to decide whether I want to start a brand new show or whether I want to start, you know, do a limited series under the same banner as the Voice Coach Podcast. I'm not sure. I need to talk to some friends, some podcast friends and see what they think is the best thing to do. > But I have an idea because I'm working a lot more in corporate at the moment. MARY: Mhm. NIC: So, helping the people who host corporate podcasts to, um, be their best selves on the microphone and show up vocally as the experts and thought leaders that they want to be within their industry. So that's a really empowering, exciting side of the business that I'm moving into. So I'm wondering whether it might be themed or in that I'm not sure. MARY: Yes. NIC: Still mulling it over. Yeah. MARY: It's always going to be like what we were saying, who your listener is. What is that person wanting? Yeah. NIC: Yeah. Maybe they just want more tips. Mary, Mary, this is good market research for me. > Just need to get off my arse and onto the microphone and get the voice coach podcast going again. MARY: Well, like you said, you wrote the book on it, so you can talk about this endlessly. And I'm sure that it will be so, uh, valuable because I know the podcast as it is right now, now, it has been so valuable for me, so. NIC: Oh, thank you. That's so good to know. MARY: Yeah. Nic thank you so much for your time and your unofficial medical glasses off diagnosis with my voice. > NIC: Yes. Please see a medical professional and, uh, if not responsible for any pathologies, that maybe. There's my disclaimer. MARY: Exactly. NIC: Do seek professional help. MARY: Yes. NIC: If your voice changes for more than two weeks. > MARY: This has been so lovely. Thank you so much. NIC: Thank you. MARY: Oh, weren't those tips great? Yeah, the slug tongue she mentioned earlier, > like, those tongue twisters get easier after the slug tongue. > It's a great one to go hand in hand with the lion's roar that I tend to do. I do the trills and the lion's roar. And this is how you do a lion's roar. It has to do with the tongue and all the muscles in your mouth and your jaw. And so you stick the tip of your tongue behind the bottom front teeth. Okay, so the tip of the tongue is at the bottom of your front teeth. You're going to try and stick your tongue out as far as you can and open up your mouth wide like a lion. But that tip of your tongue is still stuck to the back of your lower teeth. Okay. And then you're just going to exhale with a wide mouth and you go. > You're going to make like a lion's roar face, like my eyes, close, my cheeks, wrinkle all of it. Because you're really stretching out the back of your throat as well when you do that. And I find it goes really hand in hand with that slug tongue.  Because then you're also working your tongue or trying to relax your tongue, and then the trills is trying to relax your lips. > That is a tough one. But if you can relax your lips, that's what that does.  So many great tips from Nic. And I'll be sure to also link her book in the show notes because she says it's got some good pictures if you're a visual aspect person so you can go that way and read her book and look at her pictures. But also in the show notes, I will link to her podcast because like I said, I do listen to her show. She's got some great short episodes with vocal tricks and tips. So get more vocal warm ups through Nic and her podcast. You'll love it.  All right, and also just a quick reminder, if you are still listening to this episode before November 1st, or at least the end of the day on November 1st, I still have my giveaway going for a ticket for you to join me at the Podcasting For Business Conference that's happening November 13th through 15th. But on the 14th, right in the middle of it, I'll be on a panel all about using your voice. It's called Your Voice, Using It, Shaping It And Protecting It. And I would love for you to join me at that conference. I'm giving away a free ticket to it. And this is how you enter.  What you need to do between now when this episode is published to, uh, the end of the day on November 1st, all you need to do is leave me a voice note from my website because I want you to share your voice. So go to VisibleVoicePodcast.com There's a purple button there that says send voice mail. Click on that and I want you to leave a 90 second voice note from your device. Quickly state your name, where you're calling from, Hello, Mary Chan, long time listener, first time caller. And two, say and complete the following sentence stems, The first time someone said something about my voice, it made me feel, dot, dot, dot, and then end with today, what I love about my voice is, dot, dot, dot. Okay? I say leave a 90 second voice note, but if it cuts you off, feel free to continue on the next one. It's fine, it's fine because I just want you to share your voice. I would love to hear what someone said to you the first time. You were like, oh, my voice. Okay, maybe I won't do that anymore. It's happened to a lot of people, so I just want to hear it. And I would love to hear how you transitioned, through that to today.  And then I will draw from all the entries for that free ticket to the podcasting for business conference. Again, it's happening on November 13th through 15th, and it is hosted by Megan Dougherty of One Stone Creative. She was a guest on this podcast. So if you haven't listened to that one yet, that one's just fun because she talks all about research and reports, it's episode number 70. Make sure you get on that because, ooh, actually the 2024 report because I interviewed her, for that episode last year, 2023. But the new 2024 report is coming out this same week. If you are listening to when this podcast first came out at the end of October. So, lots of podcasting reports and information that I'm gonna be delving into. So if you're not into the stats and all that stuff, don't worry, leave it with me. > So, yeah, good luck with winning those tickets with me. Just send me your voice note from my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com.  On the next episode. I want to explore what it means to do less. There's so much overwhelm in the world these days. We're really, really busy in the world of podcasting in your own work, and then there's also your personal life and everything in between. And I've noticed when just talking to podcasters, to other people, just within my networking, creating a business and my friends and family, there is a lot happening and we are all trying to streamline and just do less. What does it mean if we did less and this specifically for a podcast? How do you do less around your show, yet still create episodes that you love? We're going to explore this, the next time, so join me then.  > > >

Playlist puntata nr. 2 01 - Led Zeppelin - Babe I'm Gonna Leave You 02 - Neil Young - Driftin' Back 03 - Frank Zappa - Crew Slut 04 - Air - All I Need 05 - Daniele Silvestri - L'Autostrada 06 - Sexteto Nacional - Siboney 07 - Morcheeba - The Sea 08 - Royksopp - Dead to the World 09 - Vozes de Raiz - Aguas Sagradas 10 - Peter, Paul and Mary - It's Raining 11 - High Llamas - Toriafan 12 - Brian Wilson - Surf's Up 13 - John Lennon - Free as a Bird 14 - Rachael Lavelle - Let me Unlock Your Full Potential 15 - The National - Somebody Desperate 16 - Ghost of a Saber Tooth Tiger - Moth to a Flame 17 - The Who - The Song is Over

Join us in this episode of the Class E Podcast as we dive into the extraordinary journey of Callie Goodwin, the mastermind behind a thriving greeting card company born out of the challenges of the pandemic. From a humble start during quarantine to becoming a household name on TikTok, Callie shares her inspirational story of turning isolation into innovation. With her background in education and social work, Callie's path to entrepreneurship was unexpected but undeniably rewarding. Tune in to discover how she navigated obstacles like funding shortages and leveraged the power of social media to skyrocket her business. From viral TikTok campaigns to unexpected partnerships, Callie's journey is a testament to the resilience and creativity of small business owners everywhere. Join us as we explore the highs, the lows, and the invaluable lessons learned along the way. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking inspiration, practical tips, and a glimpse into the limitless possibilities of entrepreneurship in the digital age. Guest: Callie Goodwin. Founder Sparks of Joy   Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez    Transcript: MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host, Mary Sturgil. This podcast is brought to you in partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And today we have a very special guest…you may know her from Tik Tok and some Tik Tok ads. It's Callie Goodwin, who is the founder of the greeting card company, Sparks of Joy. Callie, welcome to our show. CALLIE: Hi! Thank you so much for having me.  MARY: Callie, I want to start with… Do you remember the first time that we met in person? Because we've known each other for a while though. CALLIE: It's been quite a while. I was helping film in Columbia. I don't know what year it was. But it's been quite a while. MARY: It's been at least seven years probably. Yeah. Yeah. I was still in news. I was still a news anchor. And Callie had this drone and I was you know me, I'm a gadget girl. And so I went up to her and I was like, oh, show me what you're doing. Like we were just talking off air that we were flying drones and we didn't really know any of the rules back then. So we just flew them all over the place. CALLIE: I look back now and I'm like, Ooh, yeah, we were definitely breaking some rules then. But honestly before… it was still the wild wild west of drones.  MARY: You were on the cutting edge then and now you're on the cutting edge again. That's your life.  CALLIE: I like to live on the edge. MARY: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So tell us a little bit about Sparks of Joy for people who might not have seen your TikTok ad because your TikTok ad… I say TikTok ad guys but it is all over TV right now. CALLIE: Yeah, so Sparks of Joy started as a pre stamped greeting card company in the middle of the pandemic. I bought a house the summer 2020, moved in, was exposed to COVID had to quarantine and during that two weeks was going stir crazy. Neighbor dropped off a handwritten card and some brownies. And that handwritten card like really kind of sparked this idea of like, I want to send out cards out with my new address like I finally have an address on my own. But I realized that I didn't know what boxes my cards were in. And I didn't have any stamps. And so I used that two week quarantine period to start a business. I design all my own cards. And then we pre stamp the cards so that our customers don't have to or don't have to try to track down stamps at the post office so it has grown I started my TikTok right as I started my business and now it's grown into this massive account and this like really cool opportunity to partner with TikTok on these things. And I never would have dreamed that this loneliness of my brand new house would have turned into this three years later. MARY: Right and so the…let's back up a little bit and talk about your education because everything that you've done in your education so far is geared toward education. For kids right? CALLIE: So I thought I wanted to be a preschool teacher growing up. I worked in preschool for seven years. So I got my Associates in early childhood. And then I transferred to Columbia College and got my Bachelor's in social work, essentially social work, and decided that's not what I wanted to do. I began working at Columbia College doing social media and got my master's in higher ed administration. And now here I am, I work for a social media app for high schoolers going into college. So still kind of like higher ed adjacent, but also run a greeting card company. MARY: Right. So you're doing social media and you're a master at social media by the way. You're doing social media for them and you're running this company that has just literally blown up. How did it come to be that Tik Tok contacted you and said we want you to be in this for us. CALLIE: So I retold the story recently or was talking with the people that this all started with. It started in the spring of 2022. So we actually got a very kind of vague sketch email from TikTok that was like, Hey, we're working on a new upcoming project. If you think you might be interested in being part of this vague project that we can't tell you information about, like fill out this Google form. And I clicked it and like it really was just a basic Google form asking about my business and I'm like, well, nothing I'm sharing here is like proprietary information that they can't like find on my website. So I filled it out. And three months later, they got the green light from legal to start this. It was called TikTok Impact and showing the impact of TikTok on small businesses. So they got the green light to start it and so it started as a website with about I think 10 to 20 of us, representing 10 states. And that rolled into the first campaign with TikTok, which was South Carolina based…a couple of billboards and newspaper ads and stuff that ran in October of 2022. And then thought that was it… thought the campaign was done. And then I was contacted in July of 2023 by a production company, they're like, Hey, we think you're a good fit for a project again, super vague. We can't tell you the client. Like are you interested? And I'm like, sure we've done this before and it's been great. So sure, let's try it again. Turns out the client was TikTok again. But it was a much bigger scale. So it involved filming this commercial, they came to my house. I think there was like 13 or 14 different production team members that came out and we filmed all day long. And then this is part of a national campaign so it's rolled out. I think the commercial is rolled out to South Carolina at this moment, but will continue to roll out nationwide. And then it also included billboards in places like… Vegas is covered. I think there's like 13 or 14 in Vegas. Times Square, the New York subway system… all around South Carolina and it's been really cool to watch that grow. MARY: Yeah I love on your Instagram when you put your…. you took a picture of yourself in front of your billboard in Times Square. CALLIE: Yeah, we went up for my birthday in December and I was like, told my parents we have to go to Times Square to see this. It's just surreal to see yourself in public on these advertisements. So I just flew to Washington DC. And I saw myself in the airport like on the screens and I was like, Oh wait, that's me like, and nobody else around me like notices in this moment that I'm standing here like in all of this ad and everyone else is just going about their busy day, but I'm like, right. Oh my gosh, I'm on this giant screen like that's crazy.  MARY: Yeah,I know that feeling. The first time I saw we had a billboard for one of my stations that I worked at when I was broadcasting. And the first time I saw one of our billboards I had to like stop. I've literally pulled up on the side of the highway. Like oh my god, that's huge. CALLIE: The first night that somebody texted me that the billboards were live in Columbia, because I didn't know that that was part of this campaign. So somebody's like, I just saw a billboard of you and I'm like, What are you talking about? They're like, Oh, yeah, it's over onForest drive and it actually was not on Forest drive. It was somewhere completely different. They got the location wrong. So I'm driving around Columbia, like just looking for myself. And yeah, it's probably crazy, but it's a lot of fun. MARY: I love that. But I do want to point out to our listeners that this is a prime example… I do a workshop sometimes for women entrepreneurs who… how to get your story told. Right? And so let me ask this question… was anything… did you have to pay for any of this?  CALLIE: Not a penny.  MARY: Exactly. So saying yes to things will get you free advertisement. Right? Now, of course, there are a lot of scams out there. So do be careful about that kind of stuff and kind of use the techniques that Callie used to say, Okay, this is just business stuff that I'm giving them, right?  CALLIE: Absolutely.  MARY: And then you can always do your background checks, make, make the phone calls, send the emails, you know, do whatever you need to do to check the background of things like this. But let's talk about how this has blown up your business. CALLIE: Yes, so, through the first campaign, we ended up getting verified on Tik Tok and being able to reach a large amount of people and through that campaign, rolled into the opportunity to… so that started with the vague sketchy email to begin with, which then turned into the first South Carolina campaign, which then rolled into the opportunity to speak at South by Southwest last March on a panel with TikTok which led to go into DC with TikTok, which led to like this campaign, and so saying yes, at all these points, continues to just open doors. But yes, I think I missed the rest of your question there. MARY: I think you got it. Saying yes to one thing opened all those other doors. South by Southwest is huge, you know, being able to go to DC all off this one, you know, thing that you said yes to was really the catalyst for all of that, right. So, let's talk about the art just a little bit because you were an art major, right. And how does that play into part of your personality, part of who you are and into the whole thing? CALLIE: Yeah, it's been cool to be able to take some of these designs that you don't see represented in greeting cards every day. And I know again, like I always tell people like you, if I can succeed on Tik Tok, you can succeed on TikTok. I am selling greeting cards in a digital world. Like people don't send mail, people love to receive mail, but don't take the time to send mail. And so the fact that we've sold over 50,000 cards in the last three years is proof that like people want that connection, they want human connection. And I think a big thing is like people like to purchase from me because I show myself on my account a lot. I also share not just business stuff, but I I share a little bit of the personal side. We talk about mental health. We talked about behind the scenes of packing orders and so people connect on a personal level there and feel like they're supporting a person in a business. And that's something they could get behind.  MARY: Yeah, I think you bring up another good point with that because part of marketing yourself on social media and you just gave us a tactic right there. Right. So it's not all about the business. It's not all about buy buy buy this right. It's about sharing and connecting on a personal level. CALLIE: Absolutely. So originally I had gone back and privated all at the beginning of my TikTok because they were so cringy I couldn't even like stand to see them on my account. They were… it was bad. I was just watching the waters…. and I had to go back and unhide them because the reality is like I didn't want to minimize, like how rough the start was, like sure we're at 113,000 followers now. But we weren't there at the beginning. And we started small. We started cringy it took a while to find our stride. And when I did, it really changed when I started getting on camera and being myself and realizing like, I am not going to be equal to the people that have millions of followers like I don't have the pretty perfect setup. This is me in my garage selling greeting cards and so once I found what was unique to me and just like the fact that like this is who I am and embracing that, like that's when we saw growth because I got comfortable with who I was instead of just trying to be everybody else.  MARY: Yeah. Wow. What you just said is so powerful. Right there. I think that being comfortable with who you are and finding the power within yourself can transcend any area of our life. But at the same time holds us back from all areas as well. Right? If we don't have those feelings. Even in my own daily life I catch myself ... .that self talk, you know that we have that Oh, I shouldn't do this because I don't have this or I don't do this right. And, boy, I need to take your advice today. And I know somebody listening does too. Wow.  CALLIE: I often have to remind myself that especially as my account grows larger, I find myself hesitating before I post up I'm like Ooh, is this worth the post? Like is this gonna fit things and I realize I'm like, that's not how we got here. And that's not how we're going to continue to grow if I'm if I stray away from where like what our tried and true like method is so yeah, everything doesn't have to be perfectly filmed. My hair always looks like a disaster. It's always a frizzy mess. Usually whatever t shirt I wear for the day, or I slept in and just showing whatever I'm working on really connects with people, MARY: Yeah whatever part of your life that it is for that moment. Yeah, yeah. You also brought up the fact that you started with… You know, I mean, everybody has to start somewhere. Right? And so with the followers on Tiktok, you started with small followers with a small number of followers and then that grew over time, the more that you became your authentic self and I think so many of us, me included, tend to not be as consistent as perhaps we should be to help really gain those followers and take advantage of what Tik Tok and other social media outlets have to offer for free advertising for us.  CALLIE: Absolutely. Yeah. It's really cool for me to connect with the people that used to join my live streams like I remember when I hit 1000 followers and I got to finally live stream for TikTok specifically and there was two people that would join my live streams all the time. I think we ever we maxed out at like five people viewing for the first couple months and now whenever I go live, there's sometimes there can be a couple 100 people in there, but sometimes I see those, those original two or three and it's always such a special moment when I see it pop up, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you're you're still here. Like you're still like, I don't care about the rest of them like you followed me through either there at the beginning. Like it's really it's really important for me to connect with my followers in general in the comments, but then also to like, remember people and remember that, like I wouldn't be here today without the support of the people along the way. MARY: Yeah, that's an excellent point too. And that connection, you know, when those live streams, you're creating community. CALLIE: Yeah. 100% we have whole like, like conversations in the comments, or I think at one point, I was taking a new medication that had to be taken at night and I'm a nighttime like live streamer. Like that's usually when I'm going live and I had one follower who is now a really good friend of mine we've never met but she would remind me every night and she's like remember to take your meds and I was like thanks because I forgot and they're ADHD meds so like it's seem funnier that like usually it was the thing… the thing you need to take to remember to do the things consistently. And so she was my consistent reminder during live streams and he's like, Did you take your medicine and like, Oh, thank you so much. Let me take one right now. And so yeah, we got through that entire, like, season of that specific medication because she reminded me every night because I wouldn't remember. MARY: I love that. So what inspires you? CALLIE: That's a great question. I am fueled by trying new things, and seeing what can happen. So I also love a good challenge. So recently, back in August or July…I had an opportunity to work with a laser company called… and they sent me a laser and I was to make content with it. And so I wanted to do a 90 day payoff challenge. Because I thought, You know what, that'd be a cool like source of content…have all these projects. I need to pay this laser off anyway, like let's, let's do it in 90 days. And so I made a list of all these projects that I wanted to do and started working my way through it. And on day 15, our Stanley topper file went viral and we sold $30,000 worth in nine days on TikTok shop. And so those videos collectively have over 10 million views. My house is a train wreck for weeks as I had about 14,15 people rotating in and out to help me fulfill these orders. But I'm constantly like inspired by trying new things, seeing what will take off and then watching the power of social media work. We've had multiple cards go viral, we've had multiple products and so it's always fun to kind of chase that like new level of success but also like what is going to connect most with our followers. MARY: Right. Do you sell the cards as singles or in groups? How does that work? CALLIE: So we have cards that are available as singles. We have postcards. We have flat cards that go with an envelope and a stamp. And then we have like little baby like mini cards. And you can buy them individually but you can also bundle them to get them at a cheaper price.  MARY: Okay, excellent. So what has been the most rewarding about this process for you… this experience?  CALLIE: I think the experiences and being able to meet people and connect with people. I think social media allows you to really connect with people that are outside of your circle. And so I have been able to make some really incredible friends through Tiktok through social media in general. I actually went to VidCon out in California last year with four creator friends that I had, or three creator friends that I'd never met in person. We all rented Airbnb and went out together and had an absolute blast. But we've just built all these relationships, friendships, partnerships with different people. And that is… it's just so fulfilling. MARY: Yeah, that's really cool. And I think you know for all of its faults, social media does that really well.  CALLIE: Yes.  MARY: Is there any obstacles that you had to overcome that you other than, you know, the self talk which we've talked about, you know, that you've had to overcome in the process? CALLIE: I think our biggest challenge is always like money, and funding. I started this with 20 bucks in the bank account and have used the profits from whatever I sell to reinvest back into my business and so every time we go viral or we have these like big influx, it's like okay, now how do we, how do we upgrade our stuff? Instead of outsourcing, we now print all of our stuff in house. We've purchased the equipment, you know, we've purchased the lasers, we've purchased the shelving like never, never knew shelving was so expensive. But to house all of the cards that we offer, we have about 150 designs. And to also to hire an assistant that helps with fulfilling card orders. That was important but yeah, I think funding especially when not going like traditional, like loan routes, because that wasn't something I wanted to do. It's also sometimes hard to find small business loans when you're brand new, but not like when I still consider myself like a pretty like a baby business compared to like a retail location or something like that. Everything operates out of my dining room and so sometimes that funding is usually like one of the hardest parts.  MARY: Yeah, that's…it is hard, especially for a company that's starting up because for banks to lend you money of course they want to see three years of growth right? CALLIE: Yeah.  MARY: And you're like, Well, how do I get the growth but don't have the money? CALLIE: Exactly, exactly.  MARY: So you have to be creative in the ways that you find. So then when you have this big orders like that $30,000 order right… or 30,000 card order, then you just hire part time people to come in and help you get them out quickly. CALLIE: Yes, my dad was here everyday helping. My assistant was here and then I literally put the call out on Facebook. I was like who has extra time during the day… night. We would have people that would come in at 7:30 in the morning. A friend of mine… I gave her my house code and was like here's the key to the door. She would come in and start working. I would sleep in a little bit. But I would also work until 2,3,4 in the morning with the late night crew and so we made it through like you find your community, find your local people that will jump into help but yeah, August was chaotic. MARY: And that but you know what, that's a great problem to have. CALLIE: Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah. MARY: So looking forward, what are some of the goals that you have for the card company? I mean, do you I mean, I guess you want to stay in your garage forever. CALLIE: Yeah, I don't know.  MARY: Although that might be kind of nice.  CALLIE: But yeah, it's well, it's nice, not having like an overhead of a shop or warehouse or anything. Our garage is converted so it's like a two car garage size but it's a nice like workspace. For me I think I've specifically this past year I've been operating essentially two businesses under one name. So we have the greeting card side and then we have the laser engrave side and low backs are how the laser engraving came in. It's because no one gets rich off of $2 greeting cards. Takes a lot of greeting cards to build up by capital. And so we introduced laser engraving personalized items to help get our cost per order up. But they still kind of feel like two separate verticals. So the goal this year is to invest in a UV printer, which will allow me to take the full color designs of my cards and print them onto cups, wood, stuff that I can use in my laser engraver and be able to finally merge those two businesses and have them like mesh a little bit more cohesively. So that's a large investment of a pretty expensive piece of equipment. And so yeah, I'm sure I'm excited to figure out how we obtain that but that is the ultimate goal for 2024. MARY: How do you proceed TikTok helping you in the coming year? CALLIE: Well, this specific campaign is not a short, the ads may stop running soon, like the print and digital ones. But this is… it's going to be a long term advertisement for them and for me, and so I know that's going to help with business. I already get orders all the time. That's like hey, we saw we saw your ad like we're now ordering. But TikTok the platform itself is… 98% of my customers find me through TikTok so that's where we put all of our time and effort. We have Instagram, Facebook, we don't put as much stock time investment into those platforms because when you find something that works like I'm investing my time there on TikTok so continuing to create content that engages people that I think going back and doing a lot more content about the how… how we get to places the start of a card, how we design it, how it's printed, cutted, showing the behind the scenes of that is something like my followers have asked to see more of this year. They also asked to see more of the laser and so we're gonna be featuring more of that This year as well.  MARY: Yeah, that's fun to see. That's fun to watch. CALLIE: I realized like as much as I see it working and it may like lose its sparkle a little bit when you're running it consistently. My followers don't get to see the chaos of watching it run and so I've got to remember that's not…most people don't have multiple lasers in their house. So I need to share that more with people. It's very common for me, but it's not common for 99% of the population. MARY: Right, right. You know, I want to circle back around to DC because we I know there were these huge hearings about TikTok and potentially regulation or, or even not allowing Tiktok to operate in the United States. And I know that if that were to happen, it would hurt small business owners and I think you would be one of those people. CALLIE: Yeah, yeah. I actually just got back from DC. I was up there talking about credit card swipe fees. Additionally talking about the impact of Tiktok on my business and kind of my stance on things is a lot of the questions right now are about internet security, data privacy, and we're having these conversations. Tik Tok gets called out a lot because the parent company has owners that are also Chinese based. And so that causes a lot of fear. But the reality is that data security and privacy is a much bigger topic that is not limited to TikTok. We have those issues with Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, LinkedIn, Twitter, whatever, all of them have the same issues. And so when I'm talking with our representatives, talking about let's have the broader conversation, let's not single out one because the reality is if we can pass legislation that protects users and people. It's just eliminating one, it's not going to fix the problem. We need to do more to protect everybody. And so I'm hoping that some of those conversations we'll realize that that's the bigger issue. But yeah, it's a risk, putting kind of like a lot of my all my eggs in that one basket but right now, like it is the most accessible platform for small businesses the way that the algorithm works, the way that the platform shows stuff that you're interested in. And so it's easier for small businesses to have a fighting chance of being seen versus Instagram and Facebook that really value the amount of followers you have over the interest of what you have. So it'll be interesting to see. But I continue to use our voice to talk to our representatives because I met with our representatives office this week, and Lindsey Graham and talked to their office and showed my stats and they're like we've never heard a small business story from Tik Tok. And I'm a constituent and so going and showing the staff with like, 98% of my customers find me here like here's… our audience is actually older, like it isn't young kids and so kind of changing the narrative by giving the other side of the truth there. MARY: And thank you for doing that. And I think all small businesses should thank you for doing that. Because, you know, the good thing about social media, no matter what platform it is, is it's free advertising for you. Every time you're on there, right? You are the face of your company. You are the brand so to speak, right? And that's some advertising that you don't have to pay for. Absolutely, it's free. And if you're not using social media, then you should start using social media. CALLIE: Yeah, we don't pay. I think I ran one ad last year. And it was a very targeted ad because it was for a very targeted product for our cutting boards, like it was a targeted age group for that specific product. But yeah, we've done so much. I mean, I think we did probably close to $50,000 in sales last year without a single like dollar of advertisement. MARY: That's great for the bottom line.  CALLIE: Yeah. MARY: Let's give some advice to people because we just talked a little bit about the age, you know, and that's a misnomer that ultimately kids on Tik Tok, right, because it's not. It's only old people on Facebook because it's not, right. And so let's talk about if you can give some advice to some of our listeners about maybe some tips and tricks of the trade so to speak of getting yourself noticed. CALLIE: Um, specific per platform or just in general? MARY: In general, or if you want to go specific, specific, that's fine. CALLIE: I think often that we target certain platforms for certain ages. And that's not necessarily true. Facebook's become older generation. Snapchat is just like the high schoolers TikTok is like Gen X, millennials, whatever. But that's not true. Some of my favorite Tik Tokers are actually like quite old. We have… like I follow a Grandma, that's one of my favorite people on the app. I think there is a spot for everybody on all platforms. All say that the demographics from my Tik Tok account and actually have this beside me. So I'm not just pulling out numbers. 71% of my followers are between 25 and 54 and 87% are women. 96 or 96% of them are in the US. So I do have international followers. I've shipped a lot of international orders from that percentage that is internationally, but I think that not specifically targeting a certain age… I think making your stuff broader is the best way to appeal to people on all platforms. My dad loves TikTok. Does he create content on there? Absolutely not. But he does scroll it nightly for hours because he sends me them all the time. So it's, it's really cool for him or for me to see certain brands like really embrace the fact that like all ages are on TikTok and be able to target across all generations with their content and like it's resulted in…he has purchased us specifically because he saw it on TikTok.  MARY: Yeah. I do that all the time. CALLIE: We joke about like Facebook ads are like super targeted because of your like interests or whatever. You think and it appears but there are still younger people on Facebook. They may not be posting but they see stuff. Same with Instagram, I think a lot of people watch but don't necessarily post and so just because you may not be seeing their content on there doesn't mean they're not there.  MARY: That's a great, great point. Because there are 1000s, millions of people probably on Tik Tok that just kind of scroll and watch and whatever, the videos and they're seeing those ads, right? I don't I mean, you know, as I said, I'm a gadget girl, which is how we met each other. And because I went up to Callie and I was like, hey, show me what you're doing here man. And I am forever ordering gadgets off TikTok shop.  CALLIE: The amount of stuff that I need to do an entire video of stuff that I've ordered because I saw it on TikTok and there is a hashtag TikTok made me buy it but I have peach mango toothpaste because I found it on TikTok. Like I hate the taste of normal mint toothpaste. And I got served an ad for flavored toothpaste and was like done… immediately purchased. And that was like such like such a good decision that like makes an impact on my daily life. But like a random thing. MARY: I will tell you I have not gotten anything that's cheap or bad or anything from any of my Tik Tok purchases.  CALLIE: Yeah, most of them are pretty solid. I will say as a TikTok shop seller, the regulations that they have…they're pretty strict. And so we're constantly fighting the product authorization stuff on like getting our stuff posted because sometimes it says like I think this is… like your price is too low, we think it's a scam and I was like it's a mini greeting card like I can't charge more than $1.50 for this like sometimes it'll flag us like we think this is a scam it's because you're offering it for $1. So…but yeah, I think the last probably eight months has been really heavy on TikTok shop as they released that and try to grow it. I think that now that Black Friday and Christmas and stuff are over I think it'll chill out a little bit. But it is interesting to watch how the different platforms are changing their algorithms and changing what they're promoting. I recently got a message from Tiktok saying that they're wanting you to post some vertical or some horizontal videos and longer videos and you've got YouTube over there promoting shorts and then you've got Instagram that wants to be everybody… do all the things. So it's important to pay attention to all of the platforms and see what they're favoring. And if you can ride the wave as soon as they announce something…I will say that's like one of the things we found the most successful is when a when a platform releases a new trend or not necessarily like a trendy type of thing, but like TikTok specifically said recently that they're favoring longer videos and they're favoring the, the horizontal so they're fighting YouTube essentially. I have friends that are posting that and going viral for those longer videos and it's counterintuitive what we think Tik Tok should be but if TikTok is saying, Hey, we're favoring this. It's pretty dumb to not ride that wave. Even if we don't agree with it because like, I don't have it like I don't TikTok to be YouTube… I want the short fun videos but like as a creator, as a marketer, you got to sometimes you got to suck it up. MARY: Right. Callie, thank you so much. This has been such an interesting conversation. CALLIE: Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun to talk about this kind of stuff. MARY: Yeah, absolutely. Before I let you go though, tell our listeners and we are on YouTube too. So tell our listeners and our viewers how they can get in touch with you and how they can order from you and that kind of thing. CALLIE: You can find my stuff at sparksofjoyco.com. Our handle is sparks of joy co on all platforms. And then we have our website. MARY: Perfect. Again, Callie thank you so much. We can sit here and learn from you so so much. So everybody, you know she gave us some really good nuggets and even some Easter eggs in there, to use a Taylor Swift term, that you can pull out when you listen to this podcast and kind of put to use in your own life and your own building of your business. So Callie, thank you so much again. CALLIE: Thank you.  MARY: Take care.        

In this episode of the Class E Podcast, Dr. Kasie Whitener and Host, Mary Sturgill explore the fascinating intersection of Taylor Swift's career, entrepreneurship, and the power of love.  From the impact of Taylor's re-recording on the music industry to her savvy business decisions in negotiating streaming rights, the conversation delves into the entrepreneurial lessons embedded in Taylor Swift's journey. Join the discussion as they uncover Taylor Swift's entrepreneurial blueprint, offering valuable insights for leaders, innovators, and dreamers.  Guest: Dr. Kasie Whitener Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez TRANSCRIPT: MARY: Hi there, everyone. You may have noticed that that is not our regular music. And that's because today we are talking about Taylor Swift. Yeah, that's right. More specifically, we are having a discussion about her innovation, her entrepreneurial spirit, and the economic impact that she is having on our country and now that she's started her world tour, probably other countries. So I want to welcome you to this episode of the Class E Podcast all about Taylor Swift. This is the podcast that is brought to you through the partnership with the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And of course, I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. And can I just tell you I've been so looking forward to this conversation that we're gonna have today, and I hope that you enjoy it as much as I've enjoyed researching it and chatting with my friend Kasie Whitener. Dr. Kasie Whitener is joining me today. Kasie is an author. She's an entrepreneur, she teaches entrepreneurship at the Darla Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina. She and her daughter are Swifties. I do believe. Kasie, that you have some proof of that. Yeah, there we go. The friendship bracelets.  She and her daughter are Swifties. And she's my friend of course. So when I thought about this podcast episode topic, of course, I thought about having Kasie on the show to talk with us about that. Kasie, welcome to the show.  KASIE: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and any excuse to talk about entrepreneurship, which I get paid for. And also Taylor Swift which I don't get paid for. This is like it's perfect. It's the perfect combination of both.  MARY: Yeah, I love it.  “It's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me…”  MARY: And of course, she is not the problem. She's our topic today. That's Taylor Swift. She has been in our lives for 17 years, guys. I can't believe it's been that long. We've known her since she was a kid. And now of course as especially with people like Kasie who have children, she is in her children's lives as well, socially. And so today the conversation is going to be about her innovation, her entrepreneurship, her economic impact, as I said, because now her entrepreneurship is bolstering others, not just herself. And Kasie I want to start with…we talked about, you know, her fandom and, and all of that and how she's pulling more fans in every day and I want to start with talking about her marketing. Can you talk about some of the things that you've noticed that she's doing right?  KASIE: Yeah, so you know, I'm hosting this digital marketing class in the honors college right now at the University of South Carolina. And one of the things we have been talking about is online communities, and the ability of online communities to amplify the message of a product, a company, a brand, right? So Taylor Swift very clearly a brand…has put together this Eras tour, which the idea of it is so beautiful, she's got 10 albums, she's walking people through 10 different versions of herself essentially. We're seeing her entire kind of career all onstage at the exact same time. Artists typically come forward… they do the one album that they're promoting right? And they'll play mostly from that album, but in her case, she's decided she's going to do them all and so depending on which show you get to see, you get to see two or three songs from each of the albums.​​​ The fandom has gone crazy online because a lot of people are going to a show… they're seeing three or four songs from Lover, they're seeing two songs from Folklore, they're seeing one song from you know…the version she put in the movie theater only had one song from our favorite album, which is the one that she released over the summer, Speak Now Taylor's version, and so when we you know you kind of get obsessed with it. You're like, oh, this is my album. I can't wait and then you get to the show, and you're like, oh, she only gave me one song for my era, you know? And so then people just keep coming back for more and more. So everything around the excitement of it. This online kind of cult following for her, the community that has grown up around it. She also drops a bunch of hints and creates these little kind of Easter egg nuggets that people started building up these conspiracy theories and well she said this at this time and she was wearing a blue dress on this day and I can't even pretend to keep up with all of that except that it all shows up in my Instagram.  MARY: Mine too. And my Tik Tok and my Tik Tok.The other thing is with those little easter eggs…and there's a Tik Tok video going right now that came up on my feed last night about the Easter eggs. I think this is brilliant on her part because like you said: one, she's creating that community, that family. She talks directly to her fans that other artists…not in a way that any other artist does right now I don't think or has in the past I should say. But the Easter eggs… we all love a good mystery right? And we all love trying to figure things out so she has us intrigued and on the edge of our seats.  KASIE: Well, the way that she's predicting what she's going to do next. So everybody kind of says, Well, are we going to see this next? Are we going to see that next? So of course, I know we're going to talk about this on the business side. But she's been rerecording some of her earlier albums because she didn't own the master recordings. But she did own the copyright of the music itself. And so she re-recorded them so that she could then profit off the albums being sold, right? So we have all these albums where they're Taylor's version albums. And the Taylor's version albums are the ones that she actually re-recorded, which there's a whole other sideline there about really that is because when you get to take a look at your own work and do it again, you're a different person. You're a different artist, and it's just been incredible to listen to how her voice has changed. And sorry..I went crazy fangirl, down the rabbit hole with that one.  MARY: No, it's true though. No, I totally agree. It's true. I was listening to something, maybe her it was her first version of 1989 or something. And, or maybe it was, I can't remember which one it was quite honestly. But I was listening to the first version of her first album. And then I was listening to the newer version. I believe it was the first album. I might be wrong about that. I was listening to a version of one of her albums. And then the other version and her voice of course has matured because she started when she was a kid, right? And we can see the same evolution and other people we've known who've grown up from kids. I see this in Kelly Clarkson who can sing anything right? But I'm also seeing it specifically in our girl Taylor, and just the re-releasing of those with her, with the maturity in her voice and the way that she sings certain lines I've noticed and the different clips that I've seen online and stuff is totally different too and people are here for it.  KASIE: Yeah, well so the two…I think the two songs that we hear on that first album that are so… you hear “You Belong With Me,” which is the song about the girl in the bedroom, you know, and the boy that doesn't realize that she should be more than a friend right? There's that song and then the other song is the “Love Story” song which is about the guy getting on one knee and asking her to marry her right? These two songs… very wistful, very teenagery, teenage-y like this kind of first love ish kind of sound. And then when we hear it in Taylor's version, it's this kind of backward looking, nostalgic sort of feel to it, and I gotta tell you, I think Gen X is here for it. Like I think when we first heard those songs, we were too old for those songs, right? Like they were teenager songs and like the turn of the early 2000s, mid 2000s. Like we were past that right? And you get into now this age and she re records them and you hear that nostalgia to them and you're like yes, that's the voice I'm looking for on those particular songs. So I definitely think she swept in an older generation with the Taylor's version on some of these older versions.  MARY: Yeah, I completely agree with that. We're both of Gen X right? And I have been swept up with all of this. I mean, I've always been a Taylor fan because I mean her poetry, her lyrics are just… No one writes a song like she does except maybe Dolly Parton, right? In my book. That's my personal opinion. Which is why she has a gazillion awards and that kind of thing because she's recognized by her peers as a good storyteller, as a good songwriter. And it's that storytelling, I think that is the key to her marketing, right? So it's the songs , the lyrics, it's the storytelling with laying the Easter eggs for her fans and giving them hints about things when things are coming out and she and her PR team. You know, we know Tree Paine's her publicist, they are brilliant. They make a brilliant team. I think of Tree Paine as the Olivia Pope of the music industry.  KASIE: You're not wrong about that. So I think you're right about there being… the marketing piece here is knowing exactly who your audience is, and what they want, and giving them what they want. And it's interesting because I've been listening to these other podcasts lately that are talking about how the danger of pop culture is that it gives us exactly what we want. And so it's not necessarily stretching us or making us better people and this kind of thing. And it's almost like Taylor's like I get it, I get there are people for whom that's the thing they do, right there are philosophers, there's whoever else that's out there that wants to make us all better people. What I'm here to do is give you exactly what you want, which are the stories that you recognize, the lyrics that you like, the poetry that you're looking for, and she's delivering. I think right now she's firing on all cylinders.  MARY: Yeah, I agree and when I talk to my students about the importance of storytelling because I teach storytelling and its place in marketing, these are the kinds of stories that I want my students to come up with, right? And if successful entrepreneurs come up with these kinds of stories, we just had a podcast recently with Chad Price of Kettlebell Kings, and they were making that online community before the athletic communities or the workout communities that we see that are online now. And they were doing that back in 2012. So I think that's… and of course, Taylor has been doing it since day one just about….  KASIE: Well, let's talk about that online community growth over Taylor. Because I think it's so organic. I think that people go to talk about what they're interested in and what they care about. And she's been quoted as saying things like anybody who makes you feel bad for the things that make you happy, that's like the worst kind of person, right? And so instead, she's encouraging this idea that people should come together and talk about things that make them happy and that's the feel, that's the vibe in the Taylor Swift fandom..is this sense of this makes me happy and and sharing it with other people makes me happy. And when other people are happy, I also feel happy. Like there's this tremendous joy in this community, which I think is something unique that we don't see in a lot of other fandoms and I'll be honest to say like, I'm not in a lot of other fandoms. I'm not in the Star Wars fandom. I'm not in, but my kid is in a lot of fandoms and her take on some of them is like there's some purity tests to it, right? Like are you really a Star Wars fan? Do you know this, that, or this, right? But you don't get that from Swifties.  Swifties aren't out there being like how Swiftie are you? Do you know this about that? Do you know this about? Instead they're just like, welcome! What can I share with you that you don't know?  MARY: And have a friendship bracelet!  KASIE: Have a bracelet! Yeah.  MARY: I love that. Um, is there anything else from a marketing standpoint that you've noticed or that you've even talked about in your classes with that, that our audience should understand about maybe some takeaways that they could take away from Taylor to their own businesses?  KASIE: Yeah, so marketing is all about channels, right? Figuring out how to reach your customer, how to get the right message in front of them at the right time. So understanding what their buying cycle looks like, giving them, you know, awareness, giving them a reason to make your choice that you want them to make, right. All of these kinds of things. And I think what Taylor does a good job of is using all the channels available to her. So she has her music, obviously, right she's got video appearances. Anytime she's on, you know, interviews or talk shows or anything like that promoting things. She's done her own video content. So if you haven't been to see any of these videos, the short films that she's made to get over these videos, like take yourself down the rabbit hole because it's totally worth it. But then on top of that all the social media channels too, where she's purposely using different social media channels to drop different information and trying to bring all those fans access to her no matter where they are, which I think is a huge marketing lesson for anybody that's doing marketing. Meet your customers where they are, and bring them the messages that they need to be able to choose you and choose your product.  MARY: Right. And that movie, the Eras movie, that's doing exactly that. We're going to talk a little bit about the economic impact of that a little bit later, but that's doing exactly that.  KASIE: To meet them where they are, yeah.  MARY: She's meeting them where they are because not everyone can afford concert tickets or to go to the cities. I mean, we have a lot of rural people in America who love Taylor Swift, right? Not everybody lives in a city. And so she's giving everyone the opportunity to get, you know, the feeling of the tour to be able to experience that in some way in the theaters, which I absolutely love.  KASIE: I gotta say my favorite reel about the Eras tour movie was the video of her actually watching it. Like, this is the first time Taylor Swift has seen Taylor Swift on tour. You see her in the movie theater, just like, yay! She's as excited as everybody else. And I can't even imagine what that must be like to watch what you've created there live for people to see and enjoy. Well,  MARY: Well, and I want to point out too that that is not an act. You know, people see through when things like that or an act. The joy that she shares with people is truly her and who she is. I mean, I don't know her… like I haven't met her, but I feel like I have. And that is a great skill for anyone in the public eye to have or anyone who is the face of the company to have because that can transcend not just the music industry or the creative industry, right?  KASIE: I think the critical word there is authenticity, and especially if you're trying to appeal to Gen Z. Gen Z is so cynical about what they see everywhere. I mean, online and politicians, in person, in the classroom, like Gen Z is so cynical, because they've been so overexposed, right? They've seen so much and authenticity really resonates with them, and they and they pick it out. And I think Taylor Swift just has a gift of being authentic all the time. She is…what you see is what you get. She is who she is right? And um, people will say that. Other celebrities will meet her and talk about or they'll just be like, it's just amazing how kind and gentle she is and how she's just genuinely interested. And whether or not you've enjoyed your experience either at the tour or wherever they are like, it's… people are blown away by her.  MARY: I think one of the things that show that is the growth in her Instagram following. You know, when we first had this conversation about doing this podcast, I checked her Instagram following and it was at 265 million followers. Just in the past month, it's grown to 276 million followers.  KASIE: Wow.  MARY: Yeah, that's a lot of growth.  KASIE: That's 10 million people jumping on board in the last month.  MARY: Exactly, exactly.  KASIE: That's wild.  MARY: So I would like to get a look at her Instagram stats because that's… just based on that number, it's gotta be crazy.  “I promise that you'll never find another like me…”  KASIE: There's this great viral version of Taylor, while they're writing this song, and she's sitting on the couch and she sings it, she puts her hand up like that she gets really excited about it, and it's in the writing process. It's well before it's ever been recorded. It's like as she's putting down the lyrics for the first time ever. And I mean, you can't stage that, like it's, it's clearly not staged. It's obviously spontaneous, and her joy in the process and how excited she is when it clicks for her, and then we hear what it turns into right afterwards. But I think that that really resonates with people too. That creative process piece really resonates too.  MARY: And that's part of the story too, because she's showing behind the scenes of how she does her work. Right. And that draws us in. I get that same feeling. I understand that feeling when she puts her hand up in the air and is like I'm onto something right here.  KASIE: Yes.  MARY: Any creative knows that feeling. One of my students the other day, or even this morning, one of my students figured out how to do this great thing for her video. And I did it for her basically I was like, woo hoo, you know, whatever.  MARY: Yeah, so proud that they have that moment where everything just comes together like that. So I want to shift now to talk about her Eras tour because we've been talking about it a little bit but I want to dive into the economic impact of this thing. Right? Because we had three great tours I think going on this past summer, Beyonce, Pink, and of course Taylor Swift and the economic impact, specifically of Taylor Swift, since she's our topic today, has just been crazy. The overall impact of the tour should be around, and this is the United States part of it, North American part of it, $2.2 billion just in ticket sales, right? That doesn't include the hotels, the merch, the food, all that other stuff.  KASIE: And don't forget the hospitality tax that everybody's paying, right? So all these cities that have posted or that have had this massive 11% or whatever it is hospitality tax, you know, yuck it up communities, but you're getting all of that too.  MARY: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So based on research that I found, I believe this was from Time Magazine, maybe… typically every $100 spent on a live performance generates an estimated $300 and ancillary local spending on things like hotels, food, transportation, I forgot transportation a minute ago. But for the Eras tour…That's just a regular tour, right? For the Eras tour, it's anywhere from $1300 to $1500.  KASIE: Per $100 spent.  MARY: Per $100 spent.  KASIE: Nice.  MARY: Yeah, so that's boosting all of those local economies.  KASIE: All the restaurants, all the hotels, yeah, all the transportation. So Uber, you know, taxi services. Everybody else. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk a little bit about the structure of the Eras Tour. So what I think what sparked our first conversation about this was how impressed I am with the way the Eras Tour was built. So usually, and you can watch these videos where they talk about, they break down the economics of a tour. Usually a team will go out on and you'll see the artist kind of zigzagging across the country. They're hitting, you know, sort of regions, maybe but they're basically going all over the map right? And the Eras tour is designed very intentionally right? It was designed years out actually. Where it was okay, we're gonna go to Atlanta, we're going to play for Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday night, and now everybody that was performing those three nights in a row is now off, right Monday through Friday as we travel from one place to the next place. Then we're gonna go to the next town. We're going to set up and we're going to perform Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night, right? And so we have these three shows in one place performing three nights back to back, which is like an easy Broadway to schedule, right? Like it's an easy schedule versus like a Broadway schedule, but they're doing it right? And the setup is there on Friday, and it stays up through the whole weekend. And then they bring it down and then they travel on Monday, right? This and they've been very intentional about the cities they've gone to and how they've moved around the country. This has never been done before this particular way or something on this kind of scale. And it's the economy of it. The idea that they're not wasting gas, they're not wasting hours, they're not wasting transportation time. They're not they're not there's no waste here, right, which is so compelling to me.  MARY: Yeah, let's remind everybody that normally, in how this is different, is that a concert will go to one place for one night, and then pick up and go to the next place for the next night. And so you have all that picking up and moving. And in this particular case, they're saving all of that picking up and moving…that time, that energy the people power, but she employs hundreds of people, if not 1000s…  KASIE: The jobs are there, right, and you mentioned the economic impact like that's there. It doesn't cost less necessarily except that they are maximizing the economy of being in one space for three days in a row and selling and those shows are selling out all three shows in every place, right? So yeah, I mean, I think from a design perspective, when we talk about an industry in general, entrepreneurship, always, it's about disrupting the industry. So if you take a look at what's happening in our industry, this is very blue ocean strategy stuff. All of you business nerds out there, just Google Blue Ocean Strategy. It'll say like, what are, what is not going well in our industry? What does our industry not do well? And one of the things that music industry does not do well is show to show to show to show, because there's just so much like this venue is not available, that town's not available. We're using planes. We're using buses. We're all these different things, right? And she really got into a place and said, Look, we're gonna do this well, and in order to do it well we're gonna have to book it several years out, we're gonna have to plan you know, this far ahead. And I want to say they started doing this like 2020 is when she started booking this tour.  MARY:  Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so and planning of course before that, even before. I mean, she, she probably was thinking about this years ago, because I think she really thinks that far ahead. In her head she does.  KASIE: More than likely 17 years old. You know what I'm gonna do when I'm 30?  MARY: Exactly when I'm 30 this is what's gonna happen. Right. Um, we were talking a minute ago about the impact of her re-recording. We all know Scooter Braun bought her masters and Kelly Clarkson tweeted to her redo them, you own the copyright, right? The initial releases, especially her first album sold over like $10 million, 2 million copies, or brought in $10,000,000, 1989 brought in 10 million, but now she's re-releasing those and they're making that much money again if not more in some cases.  KASIE: The second time around.  MARY: The second time around. Taylor's version. So unlike other artists who haven't done this, they release it, they release an album and yay, they get all the money and the economic impacts of all you know, all that entails. But now she's doing it round two.  KASIE: So what's interesting about this and again, like we go back to this concept of Blue Ocean Strategy. What do people in my industry not do well? And one of the things that artists typically don't do well is they don't capitalize on reusability for their songs, right? But streaming services have taught us that people don't they don't need to own the song. They just want to hear the song, right? And so as you look at okay, streaming services, there's all the there… The people who own the master copies are making money on the streaming services, you know, .000001, you know, penny, per play or whatever. Okay, here's all these artists that are like, what am I going to do about that? Like, it's just it is what it is right? And instead, you see Taylor go well, number one, I don't want Scooter Braun making all that money off of me for the streaming services, no matter how much it is. And number two, here's the thing I can do about it, which is I'm going to release a new version of something I know people already love. And this I mean, this feels like something out of the Disney playbook. When you go… Disney's got their animated Beauty and the Beast. They've got their live action, Beauty and the Beast, they've got their Broadway Beauty and the Beast, right? Like they had their TV version of Beauty and the Beast like they took that Beauty and the Beast and they've ran it for whatever it's worth right? And so that's not new necessarily, but the way she's gone about doing it to be able to monetize existing property, things that you already do have possession of, and then find a new way to package it. I think it's just genius.  MARY: Yeah, and I read also somewhere that because of the Ers tour…  obviously streaming of her music and this happens for all artists but in particular, since we're talking about Taylor Swift… if they if they're having a concert, especially one that's so huge, like this one, right, the streaming of their music goes way up. So then that of course has the other economic impact of raising more money, right? For the artist and for whoever gets a piece of that pie. Right? So I think that's super interesting is that we can't leave that out of the economic impact as well when we talk about that.   KASIE: Another one of the channels when we were talking before about channels. So on streaming services like Spotify, you can create your own playlists, right? Some of the most popular playlists are fan created playlists. Taylor's got fan-created playlists that are replacing the original versions with the Taylor's version as they come out. So you're not getting both versions of “Love Story.” As soon as the new version came out, the old one was gone. And so it's like they're erasing her digitally. They're erasing these old versions digitally. You can still access them. They're still on Spotify. But the fans are saying those aren't the ones we listen to anymore. We only listen to Taylor's version.  MARY: And they're on that train. They're on that Taylor train.  KASIE: They're all bought in.  MARY: And we're going to only listen to the new stuff that's Taylor's version. That's our stuff. And I think that that circles back around to her marketing and her building that community and the positivity that she puts out there and that her fans kind of feed off of right? You know, one of the things that makes her so inspirational to me is her generosity, right? We've heard the stories of every city that she's been in with the Eras tour. She's donated 1000s and 1000s of dollars. Nobody's disclosed the amount but we know it's a lot to every food bank in the city where she's had a concert. And that, that says a lot because that has its own economic impact… we talked about the financial gain of people buying stuff and going to hotels and restaurants and stuff, but this has another economic impact on those cities.  KASIE: Yeah, I think so. It wouldn't surprise anybody who's a Taylor Swift fan to know that she's, you know, overseeing some of these decisions that are made at the concert level, right? So we don't know how many of these are Taylor Swift decisions necessarily, but it does feel like it comes from an overall vibe. So if you think of like a corporation having corporate values, what are the corporate values and does this corporation always act within their values? And in Taylor Swift, if Taylor Swift is a corporation, one of the values is generosity. And so where does that generosity manifest itself? And it is of course in charitable donations, it is in economic impact, it is in bonusing your own employees, caring for your own employees, those kinds of things. And so yeah, I don't think it would surprise anybody to know that Taylor Swift is living her values all the time.  MARY: Right. And it's a great example to other leaders and whatever industry it doesn't matter the industry because you mentioned taking care of her employees. We heard about the bonuses that she gave, not just her truck drivers, but all of her employees. So like $55 million I don't know many people that would take $55 million out of their own pocket and spread it around to people that work for them.  KASIE: Well, two it speaks to this… So as a Gen X-er are right, like I kind of hate to give it, you know, the millennial credit right? But I think it speaks to this sense in that generation that enough is as good as a feast. And so I don't need $55 million more. You know what I'm saying like, what else is that money going to do for me except just be more money, right? And so I can't take it with me like there's this kind of sense and I will give 100% the millennials the credit for that. They have a sense that enough is as good as a feast. And so when somebody has so much more than they really believe that they need right? We see that with Mr. Beast. There's a lot of these kinds of digital entrepreneurs that are recognizing, hey, I want to take care of myself and my family. But beyond that, I want to take care of all the people around me right? And that generosity, I think is generational.  MARY: That's the generosity that I wish would permeate throughout all of society.  KASIE: I think we're gonna see more of it honestly I think and like I said, I'm giving credit to the millennials. They're not all that way, but a lot of the leaders in that generation are and I think Gen Z is going to be the most generous generation we've ever seen.  MARY: I completely agree with that. My students every day… they just impress me so much and surprise me. Speaking of… one of my students is my producer. Isabella, pop in here and show everybody and say hi.  KASIE: Hi Isabella!  MARY: She's the one. And for all of our podcast listeners, she's the one that makes this podcast sound so good. So we thank her tremendously. She graduates by the way, she graduates in May and I'm going to hate to lose her but somebody out there is gonna get a really good employee, who's very creative, who's just on top of things. So.  KASIE: And here's an opportunity for somebody in your ranks that maybe gets to move into Isabella's spot.  MARY: Absolutely, absolutely. I love that you pointed that out. We're talking about the economic impact. $4.6 billion to the local economies, according to QuestionPro, is what her tour should be when all is said and done, should have kind of input into local economies.  KASIE: And remember this isn't in a vacuum, right? This is a community effort. This is all the people who are taylor Swift fans coming forward spending their money, wanting to be part of something that is bigger than themselves, wanting to give their money to the community like wanting to go out to eat, wanting to make it a thing, right? Like all this stuff, so it's not…it is Taylor Swift. It is the tour. It is of course like hey, thank you Taylor, for creating this amazing company. But the key to it is that she's providing something people want, and people are willing to part with their money in order to get that thing and I think that's really critical because she's getting some heat from certain elements of like, how expensive the tickets are and like how much it costs and you mentioned before, because I want to maybe this segues into our conversation about the movie, about people not being able to afford to go and she gets some heat for that. There are people who don't, maybe they don't recognize the experience that is the Taylor Swift Eras tour, so they don't feel like you know, this is just not worth it. Nobody should charge that much. Blah. Blah, blah. Market economics tell us that people will pay the value that they believe it's worth right? And so they're willing to pay this money. That's them being willing to…don't feel sorry for these ticket buyers, right? They're willing to do that right?  MARY: They're choosing.  KASIE: Exactly it's a choice. She didn't make anybody spend that money on those tickets. And then she put the movie out. And the movie tickets which I love. First of all, the tickets are $19.89 So this is one of those Easter eggs, right? She charged 1989 for her tickets. When the tickets went on tour, we found out first of all, we thought it was only gonna be one night. So as soon as we found out they were going on tour we did not get to see the Eras tour. We fell in the group of people that was like we don't have two grand to go see this right? Not that I would in any way not spend that money if I did. I would 100% spend that money if I had it but anyway, all that to say when the movie was coming out… we're huge movie people. So Holly and I were super excited. We jump on the app. We're gonna buy the tickets. And when we see it, I just turned it to her like, it's $19.89 and we lost it, like, cackling that she had priced them at 1989. Like, I mean, come on. Come on Tay.  MARY: Yeah, but it's another one… It's genius exactly, because it created that feeling in you guys that you are now even more excited because you're like this is right on right on what we expect from her. KASIE: Oh, it's on brand, like it's fully on brand and it makes you feel like because you get it when you see it's 1989 you're like, oh, I get it. Good job, Taytay, right? Like and then you feel like you're part of this squad because you know this thing that other people don't know. I think the same when we showed up to the actual movie theaters… we're walking in, and everybody's got their bracelets on. People are singing along like nobody's telling you to shhh we're watching a movie like it's not.. We didn't have one of the big dancy theater ones. I think if we had gone to a later show, maybe but we went to an earlier show. There were some small kids like we kind of… people didn't want to stand up in front of people and not let them be able to see so we just all sat and watched but, man we sang. I mean we definitely sang.  MARY: And you're not alone. Everybody around the country. So the movie worldwide has grossed over $123 million.I mean, it's just, these numbers are just mind boggling, right? It's reached $90 million within like the first week I think..it's crazy, right? KASIE: Can I tell you where I think this is the only mistake I think Taylor Swift may have made? MARY: Oh yeah. Let's talk about that.  KASIE: Are you ready? MARY: Because we learn from our mistakes, right? KASIE: So the Eras tour movie grosses $129 million dollars,can you imagine if they're had been six versions of that movie?  MARY: Oh good lord. Yeah.  KASIE: If she had issued… you never know which version you're gonna get. Remember when clue came out? And there were three things to clue. Yeah. So you went to see it three times because you weren't sure which ending they were going to show in that theater is a thing that needs to be done more often. And with the era's tour movie, she had a chance to do it, especially because there were shows that she recorded where she had played more songs. Like I said, we only got the one song from our favorite album. There were shows where she played more songs from that. So why not get film from a bunch of different shows and piece together three or four or six, but like say you get three, three versions of the error story. And you don't know so you show up like not sure is this going to be the Argentina one? Is this going to be the Indianapolis one? Is it…I don't know which one I'm watching. I'm just watching one of the three Eras movies that may be showing today. Right? Come on, we'd be back. We've got 1989 every time.  MARY: Right. Dr. Kasie Whitener. That is why I have you on this show. Because you bring up things like that. I love it. I love it. I love it.  KASIE: It's just a missed opportunity. Just a missed opportunity. It's not a criticism. It's just an opportunity. MARY: Absolutely. And who knows, maybe she's gonna listen to this podcast and check out that missed opportunity. And if not, maybe somebody else will.  KASIE: I think we get the world tour. I think she's going to do another movie. It's going to be whatever she does overseas.  MARY: I think you're probably right about that. If I had to guess as a matter of fact, I also heard that she is also extending some dates after she comes back to the States again. So we'll see if that pans out. I don't know for sure if that's true or not.  MARY: But now we're coming to my favorite topic of the podcast. And that is the love, the romance… KASIE: We're here for it MARY: You're right. We're all sitting here. I swear to God after the Buenos Aires video came out and of her changing the lyrics, of her running up to Travis at the end. Literally, I'm watching it from every angle that I could find on everywhere and I'm not alone because there's a gazillion Tik Tokers who are talking about the same thing. And we are all on even as old women…all of us Gen X-ers are loving this.  KASIE: Yes right here for it.  MARY: We're here for it. And I know the reason I'm here for it is because I love love. I've have always been romantic. But we're here for it and that is turning into some economic impact with the NFL. And with anything related to Travis and Jason Kelce, you know, I mean, right after she showed up at the Chiefs game, their podcast went to number one.  KASIE: Yep. MARY:  The sales of his Travis Kelce, his jersey have gone up 400% You know, their song that they just released the brothers Christmas song… number one on iTunes charts even beating Taylor, right, in some places. So that economic impact is spreading beyond just the world of Swifties and spreading to the NFL, and they're eating it up.  KASIE: So there's two possibilities here right there's the cynical side, which is like this is a publicity stunt. The Kelce brothers organized this… their podcast was launching, their documentaries launching, blah blah blah publicity stunt, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, okay. Fine. If that's the case, there's a publicity stunt. I'm here for it.  MARY: Me too.  KASIE: I'm all in, it's fine. It doesn't have to be real. Like I'm into to read the story. Live the story. Love the story. I'm fine with it. It doesn't have to be real. So that's fine. So many haters that are out there. They're like oh, they're just doing it for, you know, for record sales. Okay. Oh, they're just doing it to get more. Okay. I have no problem with it.  MARY: Whatever. Yeah. Me either. I don't think that's true. KASIE: By all means, okay. So there's that one side. And again, that's fine. And then the other side is this could be real. Right? And I think that this could be real side is really compelling for a number of reasons of course because through her lyrics, through her songs,  all the sad stories. I just watched her go through all this right and and of course, she gets torn down to the media for two reasons, one for serial dating and then the flip of it is for writing songs about being a serial dater, right. And then it seems like what we're seeing, and again, it could be a publicity stunt. But it seems like what we're seeing is somebody who has a career in his own right has plenty of competence in his own right, feels perfectly good about himself as a human being in his own right, and is glad to share a spotlight with her and it's almost in awe of her and how wonderful she is and that worship that all of us feel for her… when we see him demonstrate it to is gratifying because we think she deserves it. And we think she deserves somebody who believes she deserves it and is not ashamed or unwilling to give it. MARY: Right exactly. And who's confident… I think you've hit on it right there… who's confident enough to stand he's, granted I'm not taking anything from Travis, but stand in her shadow a bit and really support her right because she's now a billionaire and not because she's a billionaire. But because she's so creative because she's so talented. She's gotten to that financial place because of her talents. And because of her work ethic, right?  KASIE: Oh the work ethic, easy.  MARY: The work ethic is crazy, right? And so which we also aspire to but I don't I don't know about that.  KASIE: She's a once in a lifetime talent. And I'm perfectly fine with that.  MARY: Exactly. I want to be Taylor Swift. But the great thing is we can learn from it. Right? And all the NFL is learning from it right now. Right?  KASIE: I gotta say there's two pieces of that that I think are really brilliant. I know your classes look at digital media… look at digital governorship too and the first one was with the New Heights podcast, watching Travis Kelce watch the video of the couple that had been the Travis Taylor couple. I don't know if you saw this right. MARY: Yes I did.  KASIE: So first of all, to back up just a little bit… MARY: It was Jax and her… putting him on the map… KASIE: But yeah, so there's a big trend on the internet of women talking about how Taylor Swift put Travis Kelce on the map people you know I don't even watch the NFL but I'll watch it for Taylor Swift like it became this like running joke around women who know better, but are intentionally trapping their husbands into like, you know, oh, I don't even know who this person is. Like, I mean, she made him famous. And these men just like losing their minds, because they're angry. She's not even a thing. It doesn't even matter. Okay, so that piece of it was really funny when the NFL changed their twitter handle to Taylor's version, right and so then you get the mash up of her saying. So now when you see it says Taylor's version it's because I own it. And then they show the NFL thing. This is Taylor's version. Taylor owns the NFL, like, like all of this was really great publicity for the NFL. Really great publicity for Taylor Swift and for Travis Kelce. And I think again, even if it is a publicity stunt, I'm here for it because it was clever. It was new, it felt fresh and it felt real and authentic. And then the other part was, of course, like I said with the Halloween costume. Jax is talking about her putting him on the map. And he just falls for it, the boyfriend supposedly falls for it And he's like. Oh, come on. He actually puts his face on the map. And then Travis is watching and he goes oh, I get it. She put me on the map. That's pretty funny. Like he's in on a joke. It's okay with him. He's not feeling ashamed, but he's not wanting to hide it and pull it off. He's not throwing a temper tantrum about it. And that just shows this like grown up man behaving like a grown-up man. And I think I want to be here for that too. I want to see more of that on the internet.  MARY: We could have a whole nother podcast about just the romance and how Travis is a grown up man and the right person or the right type of person for her. They have the same energy. I don't want to go down this rabbit hole but they have the same energy. He matches her energy. If you saw the video of him at the Buenos Aires concert on his off week, he was cheering her on just like she was cheering him on at the game she went to right.  KASIEL Yeah, well you see videos of him when she's not even around. Like Travis just being Travis is that way. There's a kind of like goof factor to it. There's a kind of so much confidence and who they are and how they are. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. This is good. And again, this is a love story. We're all here for it. We want the best thing for both of them either, of course like nobody's over here going. If they break up, we're gonna be pissed at them. It's not like that, everyone's like along for the ride. We're just glad to see two people who we all believe deserve happily ever after maybe maybe seeking one.  MARY: Yeah, now we can't ignore the... I don't want to go down this rabbit hole but we can't ignore the people who are the naysayers and I just ignore… I mean, we can't ignore them. That's the way I should have said that. We can't ignore them and I do ignore them. Because like you said, the whole marketing, everything is brilliant about it. And just to talk a little bit to remind some of our viewers or listeners about the impact it's had on the NFL, not just the ticket jersey. The Jersey sales but ticket sales to actual games have gone up. Where people, the Chiefs games in particular, or even the Eagles games where people thought Taylor might be at the Eagles game. A few weeks ago those ticket sales went up and of course ESPN and the viewing viewership on TV went up as well, which of course, increases financial gains there for ESPN and NFL both. Right? Yeah.  KASIE: So it's just a good thing all around. And I think for the haters that are out there, either sick of it or they don't know anything about it or they don't care about it. They don't want to talk about it, all of that, you know, it goes back to what Taylor said about if somebody is gonna make you feel bad about the thing that gets you excited, then that's just the worst kind of person. Like, why would you make people feel bad for the thing that gets them excited? It makes them happy, like, just let them be happy. You know, like, I just, yeah, just… MARY: That's why all of us are drawn to her because of that mentality. Right? And, and we know that she's been through it. And to come out and to see the happiness on her face right now. Just the joy and the… she's at peace right now. Right? She's loving everything that she's doing. And then when she's with Travis it's just great. I could just talk about it forever.  KASIE: But I'm here for it. MARY: I know we've gone down a rabbit hole a little bit. For our listeners and our viewers. Hopefully you've come along right along with us. But we also have given some golden nuggets here in this podcast, some Easter eggs if you will, not as clever as Taylor has done them. But things that you can take with you. Take away. Always look, I tell my students all the time, look for the blueprint in your story. Look for the blueprint that people can take with them into their lives. And we try to do that with this podcast every episode that we have, and talking to people about their stories and having conversations like we are with Dr. Kasie Whitener here. And so there are things that you can take and apply to your business or figure out how to apply to your business or your entrepreneurial venture whatever wherever and whatever stage you're in, right? KASIE: I think the most useful thing is, it's a climb. I mean, it's a climb. Taylor Swift didn't wake up at 17. And have an impact of billions of dollars, you know, on global markets. That's not how things worked out, but she's been working. She had a vision for what she wanted to do, for how she wanted her career to go. When she left country music, she wanted to sing her own songs. That was a huge risk. I remember being in a conversation with my brother, uh, when she left when she decided to walk away from her label and country music because she wanted to sing her own songs and he was like she's gonna fail and I was like, I don't know, I wouldn't bet against her. I'll be honest with you. I wouldn't bet against Taylor Swift. And here she is, you know, having rewritten the rules in her own industry to fit things the way she wants it to work. And she and she gets knocked down. She just gets back up again. I mean, things that should… if you think of the Kanye…I mean, it's humiliation, basically, public and professional humiliation. And she just came right back. Right? And so, and I know that's not.. I say that she came right back making it sound like it's easy.  MARY: It took two years for her to… KASIE: And the way she wrote about it and the way she talked about it. The way she processed it and brought us all along for that journey too because who she is as a songwriter. You know when we see all of that I think that's why we want such good things for her now. If you know her through her music that well then you go okay, we're at the climax of the story now, right, where all the things are supposed to be working out the way they're supposed to work out. And I want to see the beautiful things happening for her.  MARY: So yeah, oh, I love that. I do want to circle back around to the idea of bringing people along with you. Because one of the two things she's done recently that I think we all should point out is that she's used the status that she has to help. I mean, obviously, we talked about philanthropic ventures and things like that, but in her contract with Universal and in her contract, she made them agree to give more artists more percentage of their streaming rights, you know that you get paid so much for every time you stream, it''s pennies on the dollar, right, right. But in that negotiation process, she got Universal to give all of their clients, all of their musicians, all of their bands, singers, everybody, more percentage from their streaming rights. That's huge. Because they knew what they would lose.  KASIE: Yeah, exactly. It's industry leadership but saying I have a position of power and I'm gonna use it to lead the industry and I think that's a very mature place for her to be. It was mature for her to walk away from country music when she was however old, you know, in her 20s. But this is a really mature thing for her to do this late in her career, even to say I'm an industry leader, I have industry power, and I'm going to use that power to improve the lives of all of my fellow workers.I mean, you don't need a union when you've got somebody in a powerful position that willing to work for you. Right?  MARY: And willing to work for you is the key thing there. And then the same thing with the Eras tour and the movie, right? She bypassed the studios to get it out to the theaters because the studios wanted to take a higher percentage than she knew that she would be able to get if she just dealt directly with theaters. I KASIE: I love how aware we are of the inner workings of Hollywood and movie theaters now, because of Taylor Swift. Like I love the visibility that we now all have to the system and where everybody takes their cut, because Taylor Swift was very clear about I'm doing it this way and here's why. And I think that if you're in an industry where somebody that powerful is calling you out for doing the wrong thing, or for behaving in the wrong way, you got to take a look at yourself and be like, Okay, our business model just got called out for being shady and we need to figure out a way to… and you just have to compete. I think that's the biggest part is like we see industries where competition has been driven out by bad practices, you know, just just bad practices. And when you have somebody like Taylor Swift come in and say we're just not going to do things that way. You have to compete. And I think sometimes companies get a little bit slack, a little bit lazy, they start taking things for granted, and they get caught blindsided and they're bad about it, and they'll say terrible things about it. But at the end of the day, if you're not competing, you're not winning in your market. You know, you got nobody to blame but yourself.   MARY: I think we could drop the mic on that one. Because that's true, right? Yeah. Dr. Kasie Whitener and my friend, thank you so much for joining me. This has been a great conversation. We could talk about this for hours, but she has to go pick up her little Swiftie, her daughter. Kasie, thanks so much.   KASIE: Thank you so much for having me, Mary. And anytime you want to talk entrepreneurship, I'm your gal. And if you add Taylor Swift, I'm here for it, I'm absolutely here for it.   MARY: We love it. Absolutely. Thank you so much.   MARY: All right, Class E Podcast listeners, that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember that  this is the podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. This is produced by our student producer Isabella Martinez, who you got to see in this podcast episode. By the way, remember that you can find us wherever you listen to your podcast, and on YouTube as well. So please subscribe, hit those subscribe buttons wherever is most convenient for you. But until next time, everybody take a page out of Taylor's book and dream big.      

Finding that secret sauce can lead to success, but it's not always easy to find. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked with Chris Sexton, founder of the barbecue catering company, Sexton's Smoke-N-Grill. From learning countless lessons in the Greenville Starts program to dealing with personal health concerns, Sexton discusses the future of his company, how he has become more appreciative of his skills, and the importance of keeping priorities straight as an entrepreneur. Guest: Chris Sexton Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sextonsmokingrill Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   TRANSCRIPT:  MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. You know, this is the podcast that is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University.  Today's episode is part of the everyday entrepreneur series in which we talk to entrepreneurs who have graduated from our GVL Starts program. And the reason that we're doing that is we want you to hear their stories and be inspired by them wherever they are in the process of their venture. So today we have a very special guest, Chris Sexton, who is the owner of Sexton Smoke-N-Grill, and a new venture that he's calling Mr. Sauce It Up. Chris, welcome to the show.  CHRIS: Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.  MARY: Chris, I'm so happy that you were able to join us today because one - I'm gonna look right into the camera for the YouTube people - Chris' food is amazing. Now when I was in, you know, I was a broadcaster for 20 years, and when I was in Texas, the broadcasters and you know different people in the community, they call us celebrities or whatever, but we had to judge barbecue competitions. So I've judged many a barbecue competition in my life. And Chris' is by far the best of any that I have done and it all boils down to the sauce, which I imagine is where the Mr. Sauce It Up came from.  CHRIS: That is exactly where Mr. Sauce came from. I've created a new sauce using fruit, alcohol, and just a wide imagination to come up with different sauces. We've got about 10 to 15 sauces that we do.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: All incorporating fruits and alcohol like I said. Like you can take Hennessy bourbon… MARY: Don't give your whole secret away.  CHRIS: No, everything's not coming, but we've got great stuff coming.  MARY: We don't want people to copy it. And you will want to once you taste this, you'll want to try to redo this at home. Tell us about how you got started with this. Because you're in finance.  CHRIS: I'm in finance. So to be honest with you, from working in finance, I've always had a passion for cooking. I started cooking when I was like 14 years old working at a little restaurant in Greer with legendary Peggy Davis. She owns Peggy's Diner in Greer. Started working with her, handing out trays… and I kind of fell in love with that whole environment of cooking, creating. Did that all the way through high school… worked at McDonald's. But the sauce and the cooking came from truly talking on the phone with a guy from Mississippi on the phone about a car deal.  MARY: Oh, wow. CHRIS:  And he asked me what I was doing for Thanksgiving. I told him I was going to try fried turkey. He said you need to smoke it.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And that day, I smoked a duck, a turkey and a…a duck, a turkey, and a Boston butt.  MARY: Wow.  CHRIS: And they all came out great.  MARY: Yeah. On your first time. CHRIS: On my first time, it came out great. Not perfect, but great. MARY: Right.   CHRIS: But it was addictive. It was like it was something that…it's what I needed at that point in time to slow me down and give me some perspective. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And from there it's just kind of bloomed and grown from there.  MARY: Yeah. What inspired you? Was it just the conversation with him or have you always… I mean, you've kind of always been a little a foodie. CHRIS: A foodie.  MARY: I mean, I consider you a foodie.  CHRIS: So what really inspired me is the process.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I fell in love with it. And I'm a person that loves serving people. So getting to feed people, seeing smiles on their face, people honestly patting your back saying this is the best barbecue I've ever had.  MARY: And there are some smiles when they eat your stuff.  CHRIS: And it's encouraging. So the sauce idea actually came… I made a dish, not gonna say what dish it is, and my mom tried it and when she got done, she says “man, this would be good on some chicken wings.” MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And so me being who I am, it took me like three years… I sat there and thought about it and one day while I was at work, all my great ideas come on the clock… So I was sitting there one day and I'm like bingo. I figured out how to do it, I tried it, and I kind of took it off from there.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And that's… the biggest thing about my barbecue is it's different. MARY: Yeah. It totally is.  CHRIS: And I refuse to do what everybody else does. And my goal with my business is to create a new space in a traditional market.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: When you go to restaurants and you go places… that's the other thing that inspired me…I'm tired of eating vinegar based, tomato based, mustard based barbecue sauces. You know, I want something different and so that's what we've done. MARY: So you have…how many sauces did you say now?   CHRIS: Got around 10 or 15 sauces. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: The newest…the newest sauce that I'm working on would be a Carolina white sauce. Carolina is known for that fruit flavor for peaches and things of that nature.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So imagine taking your traditional yum yum sauce mixed in with a little bit of fruit.  MARY: Oh yeah.  CHRIS: And we're working on that and actually combining the smoked brisket and pulled pork with fried rice with that yum yum sauce.  MARY: Oh my gosh. My mouth is watering.   CHRIS: So, yeah. Look for us on Tik Tok soon. MARY: Yeah, there you go. When we were in the… we were in Greenville Starts cohort together, and the first time I tasted Chris's sauce, I was like, “Chris, you need to call this the best damn sauce ever.”  CHRIS: That is actually the slogan. “The best damn sauce you've ever had.”  MARY: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. CHRIS: I tell people… I'm trying to be humble, but when you have something that's different, you have to let people know.  MARY: Exactly.  CHRIS: And this is when you taste it, it just… it kind of shocks you because you're not… you're thinking barbecue sauce.  MARY: Totally.  CHRIS: But it kind of just catches you… you're like what is this?  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And it just kind of sucks you in.  MARY:  Well, and I think you just said it correct. You're taking a space that is so kind of entrenched in kind of the flavors that are there. And you're creating something new with the idea of barbecue. And I love that. Can you talk us through the process of creating this business because I guess you started with the smoking first and then the sauces and then where are you… how, you know…do you have a website? Do you have a restaurant? How are you coming together?   CHRIS: What we're doing now is… So this is how I initially started out. I was at my desk at Ford one day having a conversation with someone that asked me about catering.  MARY:Yeah.  CHRIS: So I hopped online, in between calls, looking at what I had to do to get started so I went online, I got my EIN…and kind of got in touch with state and got everything going. MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: That was in 2016. So for the last three years off and on, I've done a lot of catering. A lot of on site. My biggest thing is on site grilling. MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I put on quite a show when I grill.  MARY: I mean you can tell with his personality. You're the entertainment and the food.  CHRIS: So yeah, if you're looking for an entertainer and a grill master, I'm your guy. So we… that's my big thing is I travel, I take my grill, I like to set up shop.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And I also work with… I've been working… I had been working before I took my current job with the church during the Wednesday night Bible studies. I'm big on… like I said my dad is a Baptist preacher.  MARY: Right. CHRIS: So we grew up in the country and all I know is fellowship and eating. I've probably eaten in every county in the state.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: Every, every type of food you can have, but those experiences is what inspired me. But long story short, the business idea and the model came from just three years of having to stop and go because working back and forth, and now learning how to balance time, family, and everything. The Mr. Sauce It Up will give me the opportunity to kind of work and service people and enjoy it and also make my first big shine through Mr. Sauce It Up.  MARY: Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about… because entrepreneurial, you know, ventures are, it's a journey, right? And I know we all have setbacks, and I know that you've had some setbacks, including a health setback for a while that kind of made everything go on pause. So how are you doing now? And let's talk about the setbacks and how you overcame them.  CHRIS: Oh, wow. So it's crazy the night that we had our finale. Our, you know, our big pitch.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I found out I had a nodule on my thyroid that they had to go in and remove. They thought it was small, but it ended up being like the size of a baseball. MARY: Wow. CHRIS: So it sat on my chest and it kind of impacted me. Dealing with things like that… it impacts…your thyroid is your gas and keeps you going. MARY: Yeah, yeah.  CHRIS: So for like the last three years, I've ran on nothing but adrenaline and you didn't know it. So it's taken me a little… little bit of time to adjust to being normal and not having that excess energy and just you know being actually knowing what it feels like to be tired and having to take a nap. MARY: Right. CHRIS: So for the last six, you know, part of that I ran on you know pretty much adrenaline because the thyroid and I were back balanced. Kind of and it… but it gave me an opportunity to really sit back and refocus and re-  kind of gave me a bigger hunger for what I want to do. I've looked at food trucks, and things like that, but a crazy and a funny fact about me is I've had 22 wrecks in my lifetime.  MARY: 22 wrecks? CHRIS: 22 automobile accidents.  MARY: Oh my goodness, Chris. CHRIS: So me driving a food truck probably nobody around here wants.  MARY: They don't mix.  CHRIS: That's not a good mix so I'm in the process of trying to find a building either…. I would prefer Greenville, but the Spartanburg area is also something I'm open to… to certainly barbecue out of. But until then, I'm gonna let myself and also cakes and sweet potato pies…  MARY: Yeah. Oh my god. Sweet potato pies.  CHRIS: …kind of feed my business and my picture while I kind of work my nine to five and do your day in and day out thing.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: The struggle. You know, being an entrepreneur… it takes a… you got to have a little bit of crazy in you to be an entrepreneur. But the biggest thing you have to have to be an entrepreneur is being resilient.  MARY: Yes. CHRIS: You never know what obstacles are gonna come your way. I never expected and never thought I was sick MARY: Right. You had no idea.  CHRIS: I had no idea. You know, and even through it, you got to, you know, one of the mottos I live off of is fake it till you make it.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: You got to go into every day, no matter what's going on, with a smile on your face, press through. And you kind of put it behind you and live in that moment because you never know life can be taken from you at any given moment. So you got to enjoy it no matter what's going on. And that's what's kind of helped me evolve and get to the point that I'm at now. And for me, I've learned you know, when things are going… when things are going at their best is when things…your biggest hurdles are going to come. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: For me, I spent all last year partnering with people and creating a lot of partnerships I kind of had to give up. So to kind of reinvent myself and roll back out and rebrand as Mr. Sauce It Up, it's going to be really exciting and I think it's the right way and path to go. The biggest thing I can tell other entrepreneurs is don't be stubborn.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: For a whole course, through Greenville Starts, everybody told me, “it's the sauce, it's the sauce, it's the sauce.”  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: And I love cooking. I love grilling.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And a couple of weeks ago… I'd say a couple of months ago, it finally dawned on me “Hey, you've got a product that nobody else can do.” MARY: Right. CHRIS: This is your…this is your headline and this is your angle. I'll still grill and barbecue and do barbecue and whatnot. But…I have a gift that I gotta give the world.   MARY: Right. That's your foot in the door -  think the barbecue, but the sauce is so scalable. I mean it gives me goosebumps just thinking about where you could go and seeing this on grocery store shelves. I mean it really does. CHRIS: That's my ultimate goal. My ultimate goal is to… MARY: I mean I literally just got goosebumps.  CHRIS: We've got here in Greenville…we've got we've got the Duke's manufacturing. I want to have something similar to that here just pumping out sauce so hopefully when you're getting you know your Chick fil A… go to McDonald's get a sauce packet, and you'll see my pretty face on it. MARY: I love it. I love it. And you said some really good things about there in that comment about being resilient and not being stubborn. And I think being willing to go with the flow because I know you were in talks about a space right when you got sick. And so every… I mean literally everything went on hold.  CHRIS: So with the space…this is another thing that when in the restaurant business, it's a risky business… MARY: It is.  CHRIS: For me, the biggest thing is finding people that want to invest and that will roll the dice on a restaurant. MARY: And that's true for all restaurant owners.  CHRIS: That's been the biggest challenge, but the buildings I looked at have been highly competitive.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I looked at a property in Duncan… was looking at property in Duncan and somebody came in at the last minute and outbid me by like 30 grand.  MARY: Right. Wow.  CHRIS: And being in finance and being the underwriter you… the risk… I'm very careful if that's the risk I take and I evaluate it making sure I'm making solid decisions.  MARY: And you understand that risk.  CHRIS: Yeah, because being in business for yourself, is a risk alone. MARY: Absolutely. CHRIS: You don't want your business upside down and trying to make back money that you may not be able to get back. That's not a wise move so we kind of backed off a bit. And it's been a blessing because like I said had I got into it then, gotten sick, we would have been in a worse situation. So thankfully, we got into a position where we're able to press pause and my true belief is that when my opportunity and my time is there, it's gonna happen but until then we're just gonna keep doing what we have to do.  MARY: One hundred percent. One hundred percent. So what's been the most rewarding thing about starting this venture for you? CHRIS: Networking and meeting new people.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And to be honest with you, the other thing people don't know about me is I'm kind of shy.  MARY: I don't believe that for a minute. Because the first night we were in Greenville Starts together, I mean, we clicked, obviously but…but yeah, no. But you, probably like me, I have to overcome it when I'm with people. Once I get there, I'm fine.  CHRIS: So I guess you can say my shyness comes out different. When I get nervous and get shy, it's like lights on, like camera on, game on, let's go. So you never really know it. So I embrace it. And being able to… this has taught me how to fight through that and how it really… I guess having a good time meeting new people and the biggest thing I think I'd say is just learn. Being an entrepreneur has taught me so much and it has stretched my limits. And so when I was younger, I was a hothead. MARY: I believe that.  CHRIS: Something happened… something happened and I'm, you know, fired up. MARY:  Right. CHRIS: So for instance, a couple of weeks ago, my first time back out and I go to leave and my grill catches a flat tire.  MARY: Oh, no. Yeah.  CHRIS: And the old me would have been saying Sunday School words and throwing stuff and all upset. We just pressed pause and regrouped and it has made me grow and develop patience. And understand that some things you cannot control. If you can't control it, you just move on.  MARY: I would think that this entrepreneurial process that you're on, and that health scare, that major health scare, probably both had something to do with that kind of, okay, it does no good to get upset about this stuff, just deal with it one thing at a time. CHRIS: Well there's another factor in there also. I've got a grandson now.  MARY: Oh yes, that's true. Happy Grandfather.  CHRIS: So, being a grand dad, it kind of…I would say the moment I took my daughter to the hospital.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: Got the call. I had to take her to the hospital. That's when life changed.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: We just kind of… I don't know it's something about having a grandchild that you can give back to them.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: It kind of changes you. At the same time, it just shows your new appreciation for life. So all of that within the three month period, it really has slowed me down… made me appreciate life even more. But at the same time, it's made me a fighter. It's really made me a fighter and made me...  MARY: Yeah, because you want to be around for him. CHRIS: Yeah, to be honest with you, this whole get up, I've thought about for the last four years.  MARY: Yeah, this is what it's gonna look like. CHRIS: Yeah. And going through that experience gave me the courage to kind of step out of the shell and put it out there and move forward because what's the worst thing that can happen? Somebody will laugh at you? MARY: Right. Exactly.  CHRIS: You know at the end of the day, this is who I am.  MARY: And who cares? If they're laughing at you, they're looking at you?  CHRIS: They're looking at you. They're going to remember.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: This is who I am. A little country guy from South Carolina just trying to sell some good barbecue and sauce.  MARY: Yeah, I love it. Chris, I love it. So we were, like I said we were in the Greenville cohort, Greenville starts cohort together, and for those of you may not know that's like an eight week program where the participants could expose everything from, you know, fundraising, capital to legal issues and things that of course, you're not an expert in everything, right? And so we learned so much to marketing. I mean, you name it, we touched on it in that class. What were some of the takeaways from that that you are implementing now? Almost a year later.   CHRIS: Want to hear a good story? MARY: Yeah always.  CHRIS: It kind of goes with the question you asked me previously about my experience.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: Do you remember the night that we wrote the breakup letter?  MARY: Yes. We had to write a breakup letter to our business. And you know, you're the second person to bring this up in these conversations, but his breakup letter was amazing. But go ahead.  CHRIS: I lived my breakup letter this year. And that night, the night that we had read that letter out loud and share that experience…  MARY: Yeah.   CHRIS: I lived it this year. And going through it and living it and seeing your dreams kind of, let's just say be taken away.  MARY: Yeah, yeah.  CHRIS: It makes you appreciate your gifts and it makes you appreciate what you did. So, without Greenville Starts, I probably wouldn't have pushed through this year. I probably would have gave up and just gone back to working the nine to five and just you know enjoy life but my experience with Greenville Starts and having to, you know, go through a made breakup with something that you love and then having to go through it actually, it kind of gave you…I can go back and I can remember some of the speeches that the speakers gave. I will say it gave me motivation and courage and more than anything else it taught me that I'm not a know it all. I've worked in the banking industry for years as a banker and on the other side of the fence, telling people no to loans and being actually on the opposite end of it - trying to be approved, trying to get all your documents together gives you a whole new appreciation for what people on the other side go through. We've been on both sides. I have an appreciation for both now. But I will say that Greenville Starts… it gave me the courage to bounce back and gave me that fight and it prepared me for the hurdles that were ahead. So if anybody in Greenville County has a business idea and they feel like they can make it, but their confidence is an issue, I would definitely recommend Greenville Starts. We have the all-American, the GOAT, the great, the best hair, Brian Davis. He just…has a way of inspiring…inspiring you. Like just…any of our cohorts, I think about you guys and where you're at and I see your successes and it motivates you. You see other people being successful and that pushes you on.  MARY: One hundred percent. Which is the whole reason we do this podcast is to share your all's stories with the public so that we can encourage other people to go ahead and follow their dreams and create their ventures, you know, and I mean, you talk about Greenville Starts being an inspiration, you're an inspiration to, I know our entire cohort.  CHRIS: I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I think, you know, God puts you in a certain place at a certain time. And I think I feel like that was a perfect time because like going into it, I'll be honest with you toward the end of class I kind of felt like something was off. It drained me. It drained me. It put me… I don't like talking about this aspect of it, but it impacted my mental health.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: It gave me some anxiety and put me in a depressive state and it you know, that's not me. MARY: Right. CHRIS: One hundred miles per hour, 100 days a week.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: So at the end of the class, it was like okay, what we got going on? And you guys really pushed us through. It's like a family. It's not just like a class. It's not just like a group of people. It feels like family and a cheerleader group.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I've coached football, played football. I love sports and I love that team aspect. And that's what it felt like. Each week it wasn't a competition against each other. It was a way that we can push each other…push each other to make each other better. It's been a year and a half now. And when you can go back and recall specific conversations and specifics in a needed time, that's when you know it had an impact on you. That's what Greenville Starts said to me.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: It put a lot of information in this encyclopedia up here.  MARY: Yeah. I love that. I love that. What advice do you have to other entrepreneurs that you… either from Greenville Starts or just your personal experience?  CHRIS: I'm going to steal one from Ted Lasso.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: The great Ted Lasso. You got to believe. And what he also says…that's number one is believe.You got to believe in yourself. You got to believe in the process and you got to trust, you know, that the good Lord put you in a position he gave you whatever gifts that you have for a reason. And you have to follow the plan in your process. When things get hard, you got to go harder.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And when things get easy, you got to kind of scratch your head and say, why is that so easy and know that something's coming. MARY: Right. Be prepared.  CHRIS: Be prepared because something's around the corner. The other thing is, I'm a Florida State fan. And the reason I'm a Florida State fan is because of…He talked about a lot about what you do when people aren't watching.  MARY: Yes.  CHRIS: And as an entrepreneur… it's what you're doing behind the scenes and when people aren't watching is what's going to make you successful. You know, the… you know, I cook a brisket 26 hours for it to be gone in 30 minutes.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So it's what I do behind the scenes and the effort and what people don't see is what makes you a great entrepreneur and a great… and great at what you do. And the last is something I learned from a guy named Tom Leopard back in 2012. Your priorities. As an entrepreneur, you have to have your priorities in order. It's got to be your faith, your family, and your fortune. If those three get out of whack at any point in time, it's time to step back, reevaluate, and bring them back in line and then things will start flowing so greatly. So always remember your faith, your family, and then you're fortune and as long as those three are aligned, you can always be successful and bounce back.  MARY: I love that. The three F's.  CHRIS: The three F's.  MARY: I love it. So you brought some… before we let you go, you brought some goodies for us. So, boy, I wish people…I wish we had smellivision because that cake smells so good. Oh my gosh. So Chris, what do we have here? This is one of the cakes that you do.  CHRIS: This is my spin on a…You lived in Kentucky?  MARY: I did not live in Kentucky.  CHRIS: I don't know why I thought you lived in Kentucky. So, this is my take on a Kentucky butter cake.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: So I call it a Carolina butter cake.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: It's a pound cake with some secret flavors.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: As all things as Mr. Sauce It Up does, we also do cake glazes.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: So this has a pineapple. No, I'm sorry…a peach mango rum glaze to it.  MARY: Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is going to be so good.  CHRIS: Mixed in butter. Something I came up with. I am the king of taking a recipe and turning it into my own. MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So, that's what I do the best. I don't… You know, if I go out to eat I'm probably going to take two… two combos, two meals and turn it into one.  MARY: And put them together.  CHRIS: So this is kind of what I've done with this and created my own flavor, but I feel pretty confident, I'm willing to bet you a $1 to your paycheck that you've never had a flavor like this.  MARY: All right, let's see it.  CHRIS: Let's see. Let me pull out my Dexter knife.  MARY: He's going to pull out his Dexter knife. Oh yeah, that's a Dexter knife. All right. All right. All right, let's cut into this sucker. So remind me again what the glaze is?  CHRIS: This is a peach mango with a hint of rum.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: And some other stuff that I can't really share with you at the time. I'll share with you at the time.  MARY: Right let's go. Cheers.  CHRIS: Cheers.  MARY: Oh my gosh.  CHRIS: Mmm. Mama where you at? Come on over here, get smacked.  MARY: That is so good. Did you say mama come on over here, get smacked?  CHRIS: Come on over. Come on over.  MARY: Oh yeah. So, we're going to have to change that phrase, well or add to it…the best damn sauce…the best damn glaze…because this is good stuff.  CHRIS: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.  MARY: Oh my goodness. Alright. So again, we'll have the links to how you get in touch with Chris wherever we're posting this podcast, both on YouTube and all of our podcast channels. Just look under the copy, the body copy. And you'll see that there because you… if you are having an event, you want to hire Chris to cater that event. Again, it's the entertainment and food. You can't beat that. CHRIS: Let me tell you.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I didn't mean to interrupt, but this cake is good.  MARY: It does taste good.  CHRIS: It tastes good. I'm a pound cake foodie and I think I've found something here.  MARY: I think you have too.  CHRIS: Not to brag, but yeah.  MARY: I think…I can't put it down. I got to finish eating so I can say the rest of the show so I can close the show out. Oh my gosh. So good. Alright. How do people get in touch with you if they want to get some sauce or they want you to cater an event?  CHRIS: Cater an event. You can find me on Facebook - Chris Sexton or Sexton's Smoke-N- Grill. Also on Instagram, it's Chris Sexton or Sexton's Smoke-N-Grill. Email me at sextonssmokengrill@gmail.com. www.sextonssmokengrill.com. And that's just Sexton's, Smoke, the letter “n”, grill.com. Or you can call me 864-680-4629. We got the sauces.  MARY: Alright, Chris, thank you so much.  CHRIS: Thank you. Anytime. Anytime.  MARY: So remember, if someone you know is an entrepreneur or has an idea, Greenville Starts is a great place for them to get started or if they're somewhere in the process along the way and they just need that little extra “umph” to learn things that they don't necessarily know, then that's a great place. So, in order to get into the next cohort, all you have to do is Google Greenville Starts and Furman and it should be the very first link that pops up and get yourself on that list.  The other thing I wanted to remind everybody of is that we have the Paladin Pitch competition, which if you are a Furman student, you can win $10,000 for your venture. That's coming up in April, but you have to participate in some pitch competitions before that. So, contact the Hill Institute, get your pitch to them and start working and then from all those pitches throughout the year, they'll choose the finalists to pitch in April. So be thinking about that, be brainstorming. If you want to do something, now is the time to do it. So, that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I'm your host Mary Sturgilll. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producers, Kayla Patterson and Eliza Polich, a true example of the Furman Advantage. And remember, you can get this podcast two ways now - you can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcast, we also have a YouTube channel where you can watch it and you can see this beautiful cake that we just ate and see us eating it. And we also.. follow us on Tik Tok if you're on Tik Tok because we just started a brand new Tik Tok channel and you'll see a lot of the outtakes and a lot of cool stuff on behind the scenes stuff on that Tik Tok channel. Until next time everybody, dream big.    

Change can be scary, but it can also be good. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked to Nathaniel Desantis ‘19 about how his entrepreneurial path has evolved from the multimedia company, Amalfi Media, to now Podcast Studio X. Desantis shares how the growth of his personal podcast company is now helping others tell their stories. We discuss how failure can be rewarding, and how it's important to always be willing to learn. Guest: Nathaniel DeSantis '19 - Owner Podcast Studio X  Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   Transcript:  MARY: Hi, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host, Mary Sturgill. This is the podcast that is created through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University and we are right in the middle of a very special kind of summer season if you will, of the Class E Podcast where we're having current students and not so recent graduates. Well, some recent graduates… four years ago, is that right? Yeah, four years ago, so recent graduates who are entrepreneurs in their own right, and so our special guest today is Nathaniel DeSantis. Nathaniel, welcome back.  NATHANIEL: Thank you for having me back on again.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: For those of you who don't know, this is my second time on the podcast.  MARY: Yeah, so I had Nathaniel on… what, two years ago? Right when you started.  NATHANIEL: It was like a year and a half, two years ago.  MARY: Yeah, so at that time you were running Amalfi Media…  NATHANIEL: Correct.  MARY: And Amalfi Media has gone through several iterations since our conversation and so I'm excited to kind of catch up with you and learn about the growth of what's happened since then. So, tell everyone… go watch… one go watch or listen actually, it's listen to at that point because we didn't have our YouTube channel yet. So, go listen to that podcast with Nathaniel about Amalfi Media because I want you to see how much his company's grown from then to now. It's crazy.  NATHANIEL:  It's changed a lot.  MARY: And in a pandemic.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, well that was probably part of it.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: It truly has changed.  MARY: So give everyone a brief description of what the first iteration was.  NATHANIEL: Like Amalfi Media? Okay so Amalfi Media was just a digital media company. The whole point was we would make our own podcasts and it was primarily podcasts. I think we had one YouTube channel.  MARY: Yeah, your mom had a YouTube channel.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. We would make our own content and put it out there and the goal was to monetize this podcast. So that was like the one of the company. And it was going pretty well. But as I think I discussed on the previous episode I was on, I quit my manufacturing job to do that.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: And it got to a point where I was like, okay, I need to make money.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: I need to survive.  MARY: Like everybody thought you were crazy when you said I'm leaving this job after a year and I'm starting this company.  NATHANIEL: Yeah.  MARY: Right?  NATHANIEL: And like the shows that we were producing were growing very well. But the writing was on the wall that it would take maybe two, three years for it to get to a point where I could sustain myself and all the hosts that were doing the shows, which kind of led to V2 of the company which is it fine to go into that now?  MARY: Yeah, absolutely.  NATHANIEL: So V2 was the Greenville Podcast Company because what happened was at the end of Amalfi Media I shut it… I closed Amalfi Media LLC so legally it's no longer an entity anymore. I asked what did I do well, and what did I not do well, and we would always get compliments on our production work. People would always say like that sounds really professional.  MARY: You guys have great productions. And listen to his voice everybody. Oh my goodness okay.  NATHANIEL: Good genetics, I guess. So the production value is really good and people would always compliment us on that. So I said, well, we'll work on just being a production company specifically focused on podcasts. And again, like I said, I focused on what I did wrong as well. And a lot of it was I think, when new entrepreneurs, especially young ones, because I was like 21, 22 when I started. No 22, 23 when I started, young entrepreneurs, I think they have this idea like oh, like it's just gonna like be huge, and it's gonna blow up and it's gonna be…  MARY: Immediately.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, exactly. It's gonna be this huge thing. So I took a step back and I didn't focus on like names or anything. I said, we'll just call it the Greenville Podcast Company to start with and we'll produce and let's just see, let's see if we get any clients. Eventually, we did get clients so that turned into us producing content, specifically podcasts for nonprofits, like Greater Good Greenville is one really good example. They have a podcast called Simple Civics Greenville County, but then we do things for larger corporations like Johnson and Johnson. So we're really hitting kind of like the companies and using it as PR and marketing for them. And it got to a point where a month ago… so this is like fresh…we decided to change it to Podcast Studio X because…  MARY: Yeah. And how did that change come about?  NATHANIEL: So we kind of again, I started through Greenville Podcast Company right after Amalfi Media shut down and I said I'm not gonna go in thinking this is going to be huge.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: I'm just gonna keep it local to start with and it has grown really well. And the problem we're running into is that people outside of Greenville are like, why would I use the Greenville Podcast Company?  MARY: Oh, right.  NATHANIEL: And a big emphasis of ours is on remote production. So we only have two clients that we actually go to in their office. The rest are remote, still make it sound really good, still really good quality. So, you know, we took a look. And we said, what do we want to name the company so that people can look at it in California.  MARY: From anywhere. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. They can look in Europe and be like, wow, well, they just do podcasts. And this is actually the reason is Podcast Studio X is very specific because we… Google has a really cool ad tool where you can do like this keyword search, and you can see what keywords are people Googling and so my sister and I, we made a list of like 500 keywords related to podcast production be it remote podcast production or podcast studio or this that the other, right? Anything with podcasts and production work, we put them into Google and we saw what performed the best with search and podcast studio was the highest ranking one so it got something like 20,000 monthly searches for just podcast studio, whereas podcast production only got like 100 a month.   MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: So we're like okay, well, let's do it based on search.  MARY: That's smart. Does that come from your sister? She's this marketing guru.  NATHANIEL: I wish. This is a lesson learned from the Amalfi Media days and some advice from some really good mentors that I met along the way. That's actually what we do for our clients when it comes to their show titles. And so we looked through we're like well, let's just do it with this as well…the company name like if it works for the podcast, it will work for the company name. And so my sister and I, this is where my sister comes in, her and I are brainstorming names and we're like, okay, it has to have podcast studio in it, right? And she's like, she texts me Podcast Studio X and she meant that as like a placeholder, but as in like, fill in the blank. Again, like what are we gonna put it in for the X and I just saw and I was like, I love it. It's sick. Great idea. You got it. You got the company name.  MARY: Well and that fits because you create podcasts for all these different companies.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. It just happened to work really well. And it's one of those things. So you know, we looked for the domain and it was there and it's like, great, this is perfect. Now we don't have to worry about it for a long time. So that's the long story of how we went from Amalfi Media…  MARY: The evolution.  NATHANIEL: …to Greenville to Podcast Studio X.  MARY: Well, and the reason I wanted you to talk about that was so many entrepreneurs… what their initial idea is not how it ends, right?  NATHANIEL: Yeah.  MARY: And so you had this initial idea with Amalfi Media and then you saw the potential and the need for a podcast production company because so many people are wanting to get into podcasts, but they don't have the skills, right?  NATHANIEL: Exactly.  MARY: They don't know what equipment they need or you know all of this stuff or where they should host or anything like that. So you're filling that niche for them. And I think that's great. So how do you get your clients?  NATHANIEL: So a few ways. First of all, we actually just hired our first salesman, salesperson I should say. So he does a lot of cold calling and cold email outreach. We have a target audience that is businesses and nonprofits because we found that podcasts are great PR marketing tools. We thought personally and it's a little biased… I think it should be around 70% of what you do for marketing. The other… you know the rest of the percentage, you do whatever you want with that. But I think 70% of your marketing and PR should be podcasts.  MARY: Because if you look at the number of podcast listeners in the United States, but also around the world, it's not going… it's seen a seven-year… huge growth in the past seven years and each year keeps growing and growing.  NATHANIEL: Yeah. And also the way that we look at podcasts and it's our job to try to explain this to potential clients is that you can repurpose it in so many ways. So you're doing a video podcast. We're on video. Your YouTube's covered, you don't have to worry about YouTube anymore. Using that video, you can now chop that into clips and now your Instagram, your Tik Tok, your Twitter, your YouTube shorts, your Facebook, it's all covered. Turn these episodes into transcripts. Now your blog strategy's covered and then you have them on the audio platforms as well. So that's something we really have to hammer home to potential clients. This is used for a lot of different things. It's… a lot of people think of a podcast as just talking, it's not. You can repurpose that. So it's our job to help potential clients understand that.  MARY: And that's efficiency, right? Because you're sitting down for maybe 30, maybe 45 minute podcast and you have that much content that.. yes, you're gonna produce it as a podcast in its entirety, but you also have that content that you could chop out and use for other things depending on what their marketing that week, right?  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. So to go back to your question, how do we find clients? Part of its referrals. So obviously we have a new salesperson but part of it is… we work with people and they have guests come on and then their guests say my company wants a podcast too. We really enjoyed working with Podcast Studio X, you guys were super professional. We want you. Part of it is connections, honestly. So I think Furman is a great example of like good connections. You just happen… you meet people in your life at Furman who may or may not become lifelong friends, but they're still connections that you'll have and when their company or their boss wants a podcast, they're more likely to think of you, right? That's helped with a few clients that we've gotten as well. Other times before we had a salesperson, I would just pick up the phone, I would call people. I'd say hey, does your company want a podcast? Just hope and pray that they would say yes. Then we also do this thing for all of our clients where if they say at the end of an episode, this was produced by Podcast Studio X and have that on their shows, they get a discount. And they also…we have a referral system that's new where they'll get a whole month of production for free if they do refer us to someone else. MARY: Oh nice.  NATHANIEL: So lots of avenues. Also with sales, we started doing more inbound marketing so we're pushing out five blogs a week.  MARY: Yeah, wow.  NATHANIEL: That's just good quality content that we're putting on our website, hoping that it draws people in and best case scenario we get a client, worst case they learned something valuable about podcasting.  MARY: Yeah, for sure. So, you are… this is almost a subscription-type service, is it not?  NATHANIEL: Yeah, it absolutely is for our clients. Yeah. We have yearly contracts with them. They do one episode every week or an episode every other week that we will produce for them. And it starts with a kickoff and training period where we kind of go into the logistics stuff like cover art. No one really thinks about that.  MARY: So do you help… Do you help them not only with the actual podcast and the mechanics of the podcast itself, but with some of the marketing of it as well?  NATHANIEL: Yeah, so they'll get clips with every episode.  MARY: So it's full service.  NATHANIEL: Our motto and our slogan is, “You talk, we do the rest,” because that's really what it is.  MARY: Nice.  NATHANIEL: And when we do those sales calls, that's what we try to explain to those potential clients. We have two focuses…you have a professional brand, your podcast needs to reflect that.  MARY: Right.   NATHANIEL: Because you know… have you ever heard those podcasts where it's like, wow, this is a big company, why does it sound so bad?  MARY: Right. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: Right. You worked hard building your brand like your podcast should sound as good as your brand does.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, so that's one thing. And then the second emphasis we always tell them is simplicity. So we want to make it super easy. And the example I always use with potential clients is we have some travel agents who are clients and they'll record on a cruise. We make it that easy for them that they can take their equipment… it's very mobile, very light, very easy to do. And they'll record on a cruise or when they're flying to Dublin like we've so many opportunities to make it easy, but still professional for them to do.  MARY: Yeah, I love that.  NATHANIEL: And yeah, so it really is full service. We have different packages so it kind of depends. And then we have add ons as well that they can subscribe to like they might only want a transcript with the basic package as well or they might want social media management for two channels so kind of depends. Everyone's a little bit different. But yeah, it's really full service for them.  MARY: That's amazing. I think that's… I think you're filling a niche that not a lot of people even knew existed, maybe because everybody thinks everybody just grabs a microphone and starts talking.  NATHANIEL: It sounds easy to do.  MARY: It does.  NATHANIEL: Everyone thinks how hard can it be to start a podcast until you actually look into it and you're like, oh, actually a lot of steps involved to it. There are two of you doing this one right now.  MARY: And we're really shorthanded. We really… I mean we have if you're in the studio, then you would see that we have three cameras right now. And we have the… basically the audio board that Isabella, our producer, is recording everything into so she's running all of that for us right now to make sure that we have the best quality possible.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. And so there are a lot of steps that go into it. And they're a lot of things that I… you just don't think of unless you do podcasts daily. So like one thing that I'll share with the world here, one of our secrets, so we call it maximizing milliseconds or the millisecond framework just depending on who we're talking to. So everything for us, like cover art, people need to be able to look at it and immediately understand this is what your podcast is about. And the second thing is they need to understand that it's a very professionally done podcast based on the cover art because they have milliseconds to decide based on that… am I gonna listen to the episode? So it goes… the flow is the cover art, if they liked that, in that millisecond, they'll go on to look at the episode title. If they like that, they'll look at the episode description. If they like that, they'll hit play, and that's what we're trying to maximize for is hitting play and things like that, that if you don't do it daily, you don't think about how do I maximize that millisecond with a title and description for a podcast or with the cover art. So there's a lot that goes into it.   MARY: And it's super interesting. I mean, we're in the podcast business so of course, it's interesting to us, but I think that any business I think could take a podcast and that's kind of like a microcosm look at how they market themselves, right? Do you get what I'm saying? Because if you could look at this podcast, this artwork, this title, right? This kind of promo paragraph that we put with all of our podcasts, and did that lead this many people to actually listen to the podcast? How long did they listen to the podcast? And that lets you know whether you're being effective or not?  NATHANIEL: Exactly.  MARY: Right? I mean, the numbers are right there, right? Yeah. Yeah. So how many… I mean, this is time…it's time consuming to produce a podcast and do all the marketing. I know you have your sister working with the marketing. She's an expert in that area. You're the expert podcaster. And then you just hired a salesperson, is it still just the three of you or are you…?  NATHANIEL: We also have an intern from Furman.  MARY: Oh yeah.  NATHANIEL: And then we have another intern as well. So the Furman intern, she does marketing, so she's helping out with that. And then the other intern just graduated from high school I was…I mentored him during a senior project he had to do. And at the end of his year after he graduated, I was like, well, do you want an internship? And so he's doing the production side of things. Besides that, yeah, that's kind of the whole team is like the five… five or six of us.  MARY: You guys are busy.  NATHANIEL: Yeah.  MARY: Yeah. So what is your vision for the company now that you're at this point of it?  NATHANIEL: Right. That's a really good question. So I know sales wise, our vision is to get at least six more clients within the next four months. We'd really like to bring that up.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: …which we think is very doable. I know our sales guy already has like five calls booked for next week. So, will those five calls all turn into sales? I don't think so. I think maybe one. Exactly.  MARY: If we look at the normal percentages.  NATHANIEL: It's a numbers game.  MARY: It is. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: So we would like sales wise to get six more. And at that point, we would bring on… I don't know, I don't know if it's a full-time producer, but in some capacity and other producers to help with that workload.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: We really are working on kind of standardizing business, because this is something that you don't really learn unless you get into the weeds of being an entrepreneur, but if you want your business to grow, you have to be able to do it without you.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: I'm not saying I want to one day depart from my company, let it just run on its own.  MARY: But at some point, you have to step away for a vacation or something.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. You need to be able to take two weeks off. The company's not gonna burn down. So we're lucky we're at a point where we're having a steady flow of income. We have a good set of clients. We have more that we think will come on. And before we get too large, we kind of want to standardize business so that it can operate without us and so that when we do need to expand, we're not caught off guard.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: So a lot of right now is like we just hope that we can work under like standard operating procedures and training targets that we're building out. But I mean, ultimately long term, it's a really good question. I don't know if I have a specific answer.  MARY: I mean, I can see the exponential growth on this because mostly, this is a great, like we've said, a great marketing tool for companies and for nonprofits and it's an easy one for nonprofits to get into because it is lower cost than other ways of marketing, right? And you have the potential to reach so many more people as well than if you were just you know, get a PSA spot on the local news. NATHANIEL: And then you can do it from your couch if you wanted to.  MARY: Exactly.  NATHANIEL: So that makes it easy. I would say long term… I think we want to branch out with… still within the podcast industry, but we kind of have our own network built in now, right? The more podcast clients that we get, the more attractive we are to advertisers.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: And we can bundle all of our podcasts together and offer those hosts advertising opportunities. So I know that's something we want to get into. Obviously getting more clients and just kind of expanding the company… getting more… I know it'd be great if we could get like 100 clients one day, and produce 100 podcasts. And I do think there's part of our strategy that does involve doing some original content again, so throwback to like Amalfi Media.  MARY: Right. Amalfi. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: So doing some of our own podcasts Studio X branded content with the purpose of attracting potential clients as a sales strategy. That doesn't mean they're going to be really gimmicky and like here's why you need a podcast but actually really good content, but just produced by Podcast Studio X. So then people can look it up and be like, oh, like they made that podcast. Yes. Yeah. Cool. Okay, well, maybe they'll make my podcast.  MARY: I will tell you a friend of mine, who is a reporter for Forbes, has a book out there called the one person…one person company. One million dollar one person companies, something like that. I'm probably butchering that title. But you get the gist. And every single one of them is educational companies, online education companies.  NATHANIEL: Really? Interesting.  MARY: Yeah, so that's kind of the arm that you're talking about there. That kind of educational kind of arm of this is how you could be doing this.  NATHANIEL: Yeah exactly. That's really fascinating.  MARY: Yeah. Yeah. It's super interesting. And it's a subscription-based type of thing. That's why I asked the subscription based thing question because subscription…if it's subscription-based, you don't have to worry about necessarily reselling until the end of the year. And then it's also kind of automatic as well, right? So for instance, my yoga guru has… we pay $25 a month, and I figured out what he's making based on all of us who… and I did it conservatively, to be a part of his academy, right? And all of these are online classes and whatnot, and it's ridiculous like what he's doing it from and he just tapes his normal yoga classes in the town where he is and then gives talks and things like that. And then by paying that membership fee, then we get, you know, access to all of that, and it's a smart way to go. So smart when you're doing things like this.   NATHANIEL: Yeah, unfortunately, for what we do is very specialized. So…  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: …we can't charge $25 for it.  MARY: No. Exactly. Yeah. This is… I'm talking $25 a month and then you get access to free classes. This is not like that at all. Yeah.   NATHANIEL: But no subscriptions definitely…  MARY: That's like a gym membership, right?  NATHANIEL: Yeah. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs like need to find ways to make that revenue recurring.  MARY: Exactly.  NATHANIEL: Because otherwise, like if you sell something for just 25 bucks, you're always chasing that next client.  MARY: Exactly.  NATHANIEL: And part of it is we should always chase our next client. So we're not going to stop if we get to like 20.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: But you know, you need to make sure that you have income coming in, you have revenue coming in. And finding out your pricing is super difficult too like figuring that out is so challenging. It took us a long time to figure out what are our prices. Yeah, we were facing some consequences because of that.  MARY: Right. If you're…and that's a thing that I think creatives and you are creative, sometimes have a hard time pricing ourselves appropriately.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. I always advise people, to go higher. Go higher than what you expect, whatever the number is, in your mind, triple or quadruple it. And the framework that we used when we were figuring out our new pricing… and we have three different tiers, the lowest starting at 2990 seconds at 4990 and then 16,990, something like that, what we did was we imagined the company has reached its full potential, right? We have 100 clients, what are all the processes that need to be filled out? What are all the key members, the employees that we need? And then the price is based on that. So we might not be there right now but if we do get to that point, right, we don't want to be caught behind because we were pricing too low in the past. And we've actually found that it resonates better with the clients that we have, the new pricing because I think there's a psychological component where you're paying so much that's like, well, you know, I'm getting my money's worth and you are with us. That's the thing. It's not like tricky.   MARY: And here's the thing, the numbers show, right? The numbers are going to show what… whether that's worth it or not. Right and so yeah, it's not I'm throwing this money at this, you know, wild marketing scheme, and I have no way to measure whether it's working or not, right? You do with podcasting for sure. What's been the most rewarding part of starting this company or going through this iteration?  NATHANIEL: The most rewarding part. That is a great question. I find it very rewarding to do things in the local community. So we have a lot of nonprofits from Greenville that we work with.  MARY: Yeah, I love that.  NATHANIEL: That is really cool to see the impact and one of our nonprofits about local civics like the podcast that they make about local civics…not many people get like too jazzed when you hear…  MARY: The word civics.  NATHANIEL: Yeah exactly. That's not too enthusiastic a genre. Yet, we've reached 70,000 people. I think we just surpassed that the other day.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: And that's really cool.  MARY: That's amazing. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: To know people are having an impact from a local civics podcast that brings elected officials on and local leaders, things like that. So having an impact in Greenville, because I've lived here 18 years now, has been really cool. I always wanted to be involved in Greenville somehow.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: So to do that is awesome. It's very rewarding to meet all these cool people we interview also. That's something I mean, you have like let's say we're at like seven clients and they each do a podcast a week. That's a lot of people you're meeting every week.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: They're all guest based podcasts. That's a lot of people. Some of them are very cool people. Some are…very interesting people.  MARY: Some are like trying to pull teeth, trying to pull information out. But yeah.  NATHANIEL: And I would say the failure aspect has been very rewarding because it's… no one likes to fail.  MARY: Oh, it makes you better at your job.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. If you can learn from your failure though, that's really cool. I''ll be the first one that I fail a lot. I still fail regularly.  MARY: We all do. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. And the sooner you can learn from your failure. Like what I was saying when I switched from Amalfi Media to the Greenville Podcast Company and then Podcast Studio X, the sooner you can learn from that I mean, the better you will be…your business will be. I found a lot of rewards in the failure. And also just you know, the fact that we're actually bringing money in has been very rewarding. You know, a business model that works like it's something that sounds really silly, but it's very rewarding. The company that's actually doing things and hiring people and bringing interns in and expanding.  MARY: Yeah, and I… listeners, I hope you and those of you watching on YouTube, I hope you get that from this conversation is that I think you're such a good representation of some of what entrepreneurs go through sometimes is, you know, you have this idea for this company, and then you pivot based on what you're what you're learning, what you're discovering, and you keep pivoting until you come to the iteration that actually, you know, begins to make you money and begins to be, you know, profitable and that's where you are right now.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, and I think a lot of people quit early.  MARY: I think they do too.  NATHANIEL: A lot of people quit at that Amalfi Media phase. You hit your first failure and say well, I guess I am a failure of an entrepreneur. If you look at… sure I think a lot of people would love to be Steve Jobs or Zuckerburg or  Bill Gates where your first thing is going to be a hit. But if you look at I think the founder of Starbucks is a great example…I can't remember his name… it took him like 10 times to be successful. Ten times of failing and trying and failing and trying until he got something that worked. You have to be willing to do that ten times. Maybe still even failing that tenth time.  MARY: Yeah. And still getting the naysayers on board. I think of Sara Blakely, with Spanx, and all of the people who told her there's no room in this business for this and of course, they were men and she's like, no, I swear there is, right? I'm a woman. We need these.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, I saw her post on Linkedin. It's very inspiring.  MARY: It's super inspiring. So when you get to that point where you have to make that pivot, I agree. Most people I won't say most but many people kind of bail at that point and they're like, okay, I've got to go get a real job. I have a family or whatever. But I think you're right, if you just keep learning from each little step of the way, and do what you're doing, then there you're going to see the fruit of your labor.  NATHANIEL: And also I think another big tip is to ground yourself in reality. I was guilty of being…  MARY: High in the sky.  NATHANIEL: Sometimes you know, you don't have a $10 million angel investor with you.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: And you might have to start small and build your way up to being your own $10 million investor. But you know, be grounded in reality. That's a big one, I wish I had told myself that a long time ago.  MARY: Yeah. All right. One last piece of advice maybe that you have for our listeners.  NATHANIEL: One last piece of advice, I would say, well, it depends. Is this like… who's your target audience… other entrepreneurs or just?  MARY: Students who are thinking about becoming entrepreneurs. Anyone who's thinking about beginning a small business…  NATHANIEL: I would say that the most important thing, at the end of the day, is your ability to learn. Because no one teaches you…  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: …how to run a business. No one taught me personally how to produce podcasts. No one teaches you half the things I do on a daily basis. So you have to have a willingness to learn. Don't go into it thinking that you know it all because I think that's gonna set you up for failure more than anything else.   MARY: I agree with that. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: And yeah learning is just super important. Learn from a variety of topics too. Don't just get so specific on your niche or your genre that you don't want anything else. I think there's a lot of value in reading and studying other businesses like  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: For example, there's a great book called Bitter Brew. It's about the downfall of the Anheuser-Busch family. There are so many nuggets of wisdom that you can learn by reading that. It has nothing to do with podcasting,but it's just value and seeing…how did they rise? How did they fall? And so learn. MARY: Bitter Brew. I always love it when people give book suggestions to our tour audience. I love that.  NATHANIEL: Another really good one, unrelated to business, but I think everyone should read is My Early Life by Winston Churchill, one of the best authors that I've read. So that's a really good one and then the Leonardo da Vinci Biography by Walter Isaacson. We're going on to book reviews now.  MARY: We could do a whole book review podcast.  NATHANIEL: Listen to Books and Looks is one of the podcasts that we produce that just does book reviews. MARY: Books and Looks. NATHANIEL: And interviews the authors.  MARY:  Oh, I'm gonna have to have you…I'm gonna have to get on that podcast when I publish my book. So yeah, I just, yeah, I'm gonna have to do that. All right. I learn so much from you every time you're on here and, you know, I've been in the broadcast business for 20 plus years now and I swear every time I talk to Nathaniel I learn something. So thank you so much for joining us. NATHANIEL: Thank you for having me and can I get a little promo?  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: Check out Podcast Studio X. It's this podcaststudiox.com. Look at our services. See if any of that interests you or if you know anyone it might interest, let us know. MARY: And that's exactly what I was gonna tell everybody to do. See, he's such a pro. Nathaniel, thank you so much.  MARY: That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Listeners, thank you so much for listening. If you're watching on YouTube, thank you as well. We appreciate it. This podcast is produced through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producer Isabella Martinez, who is in charge of all of these cameras, as we talked about and everything that's going on in the studio today. So make sure that you comment on the podcast and give her kudos for her good work when you listen to or watch this podcast. But for now, I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. Until next time everybody, dream big.        

With the fast pace that Generative AI models like Chat GPT have been expanding and improving, it has become quite clear that major disruptions are on the way for every single industry. And the legal industry is likely to be the first to face major disruptions due to these technological advances. Today, Mary O'Carroll,Chief Community Officer at Ironclad, lnc., and Craig Katerber, Chief Legal and Corporate Affairs Officer at Budweiser Brewing Company APAC, discuss generative AI and the impacts they expect it to have on the legal services industry. They also spend time talking about LegalOps, scaling teams, modernizing legal departments, and the benefits of LinkedIn. The landscape of Generative AI already looks very different from how it looked six months ago, and even six weeks ago. It is a rapidly growing technology and is making its way into every industry. This is a very exciting opportunity, especially for creative people who are just beginning to play with the tools and seeing what could be possible. The legal industry is a relatively slow moving one with very outdated processes and an unchanging law school curriculum. Generative AI could bring much needed updates to these areas and propel legal professionals toward a better, more streamlined and efficient way of doing business. Although some people may be fearful of this new technology or worry that it will replace them, there are immeasurable benefits to keeping an open mind and embracing this new way of approaching business. With Generative AI, the old way of doing things is no longer going to be acceptable. The legal services industry in particular is slow to change and many people are still working out of offices with old fashioned filing cabinets and outdated processes. This advanced technology is a great opportunity for people to re-evaluate their current systems and make much needed improvements.  Quotes “One of the biggest catalysts for hiring a legal operations person now is digital transformation.” (18:23-18:28 | Mary) “This is a much bigger moment than a lot of people realize. Generative AI and large language models are going to have a huge effect on every part of our economy in every part of our world.” (26:16-26:26 | Mary) “It's so much about empathy or trying to put yourself in the person's shoes about what they actually want or care about, and there's a huge amount of value there. And we'll see as AI goes, but that's a very human skill.” (33:15-33:29 | Craig) “AI and efficiency has always been at odds with the billable hour, but you can't avoid this now, you can't do business as usual.” (35:34-35:42 | Mary) “If there was ever a distinction of black and white between legal advice and non legal advice, it's going to be a lot more gray in the future.” (36:47-36:54 | Craig)    Links Connect with Mary O'Carroll: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maryshenocarroll/   Connect with Craig Katerberg: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/craig-katerberg-70a6373/   Connect with Chris Batz: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbatz/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theliongroupkc  Instagram: @theliongroupllc Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm  

Kelly Williams Hale is our host today on Celebrating God's Grace and shares three powerful tips on how we can navigate the pressures of the holidays and still stay focused on the reason for the season: King Jesus. For many, Christmas time is difficult. Whether we've lost a loved one or are feeling overwhelmed, peace – that surpasses understanding – is always available (Philippians 4:6). Let us be a beacon of light! It really does make a difference to other people. We can all be beautiful examples of Jesus. ***** Today's episode is about healing and the holidays. We just celebrated Thanksgiving. And I hope each one of you enjoyed a wonderful day of Thanksgiving this year. Thanking God for all the things he's blessed you with, and all the things we're so grateful for. Counting our blessings is so important to do - not just on Thanksgiving, but every day. And so, as we head into the Christmas season, I want to talk about all the responsibilities, all the things that are going to be happening, and all the things that you have to do. The message today is going to be around our journey, growing, becoming all that God has planned for us. It can be defined as a healing journey… inner healing and really becoming the best version of ourselves, acknowledging the gift that we are - that God created us to be. And on that journey of healing and growing and really diving into God's word and believing who he says we are, the holidays can bring up a lot of struggles – in terms of our emotions, our feelings. With relationships and the people in our life. Many of us have a to do list a mile long, wrapping presents, decorating the house, entertaining or being invited to other events and gatherings. So today I'm going to share three tips on how to navigate that, while taking care of yourself. This time of year can bring up feelings of overwhelm - with all the pressures, and we can lose sight of the reason for the season, which is Jesus, and celebrating his birth. And all that that means… Our salvation as women of faith, and the promises that God gives us in the Bible. The scripture I'd like to start with is: 1 Peter 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you. And I can tell you during this holiday season, we can definitely feel anxious. You might want to write this verse down, keep it by your refrigerator, and when you're feeling overwhelmed with all the things, remind yourself that Jesus is with you. And he cares about you. My first tip for healing and the holidays is to remember to take care of yourself. And what that means is really protect your energy, so that you can truly enjoy this season, you can enjoy your family, you can enjoy all the nuances and all the opportunities to celebrate Jesus. When we don't take care of ourselves, we can get overwhelmed, we may say yes to things we don't really want to do – and then beat ourselves up… Or we can feel guilty if we say no. I want to give you permission to take care of yourself - and that it's okay to say no. We need to evaluate our priorities. Our emotions can get the best of us during the holidays – We just want everyone to be happy! We don't want to hurt anybody's feelings by saying no. I remember a Bible Study I did years ago about Mary and Martha. Remember Martha got so mad because she was in the kitchen doing all the cooking, etc – and Mary was hanging out with Jesus. Who did Jesus say was focused on the right thing? Mary It was during this time of this Bible Study that I found myself saying yes to all the requests. Particularly around church needs. But I was reminded that when I always say, I am keeping a blessing from someone else. Just imagine when you somebody ask you for help. Doesn't it feel good to help out? I actually get upset with friends if they don't ask for help and they've ended up stressed and wore out. Women want to help. Part of taking care of ourselves is asking for help if we need it. Consider this another permission slip to do so! And so, taking care of ourselves may mean saying no or asking for help. And honestly, when you get overwhelmed, start to feel frustrated or stressed, just take a deep breath. I encourage you to stop for a moment and take a deep breath when everything seems to be piling up and time is getting shorter and now it's Christmas Eve and you still haven't shopped for your husband. Take a moment to pray, breathe and center yourself. And again, Cast your cares on God. Because God is the keeper of time. I can't tell you how many times I was frazzled, running late or overwhelmed – I took a moment to just to pray and breathe, there was always enough time. It's almost as if God adds an extra 10 minutes to our 24-hour day! Tip number two is to be mindful of your reactions. And what I mean by that is when you're with your family, we can get caught up in different scenarios, different situations, different conversations where, you know, there's nobody like our family that knows what buttons to push. And so being mindful of our reactions is just understanding what triggers us. What triggers our emotions. Like, if Uncle Joe always teases you about, you know, the turkeys dry, or the mashed potatoes are lumpy or whatever, just recognize that you can control your reaction to him, we can control our reactions to the people in our life. When we get caught up in emotional conversations - for example, politics always seems to come up at family gatherings… And if we know we can lose our cool around a particular topic, we need to be aware and also prepared with our responses. Proverbs 16:24 “Gracious words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.” So tip 2 is to understand that if you're triggered by certain things, be mindful of your response. We should also take into consideration who the comment is coming from. For example, my response or reaction to something my mom says will be different than my brothers. We can then understand and frame our response based on who that person is. It might be safe and appropriate to say, “that hurt my feelings.” Or it might be more appropriate just to say, “oh, please excuse me, I've got to step out for a minute.” I believe all of us know that certain people and certain situations will push our buttons and so being mindful of our reactions will be helpful as we navigate the holidays and holding onto our peace. Philippians 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything. Instead, in every situation with prayer and petition with thanksgiving, tell your requests to God. And the peace that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.” Finally, tip number three is really about expectations. Setting expectations for yourself and lowering expectations of others. Determine up front what you're willing to participate in. Now is the time to determine your schedule and what you're available for. So that when your husband says, let's go look at Christmas lights tonight, but you've already committed to baking pies for your ladies' group… you'll be able to say honey, let's go look at the Christmas lights tomorrow night, because I've got to make these pies. Setting expectations up front – so it won't feel bad – for you and for others - when you have to say, “no, I'm sorry, I can't…” And then also, remember that other people are not always going to do the things that we want them to do. Or do things the way we do them. So when I say lower your expectations of others, it will help your nervous system, when someone drops the ball or doesn't follow through. When we have expectations of others - and they don't meet those expectations – that can create anxious feelings as well during the holidays. We expect Aunt Susie to bring the green bean casserole, but she totally forgot. There's less disappointment and more grace when we allow others to be human. We all forget things sometimes! We all want to have a wonderful holiday season filled with joy, love and peace. And I believe it is possible! Let us all remember to share a kind word when we're out and about - shopping at the grocery store, picking up presents, or even at home, wishing the Amazon delivery person a wonderful, blessed day! So many people are hurting this holiday season, whether they've lost someone or they're feeling overwhelmed with all the things… we as believers can be a beacon of light, it really does make a difference to other people. And so, I just want to leave you with this final scripture, John 14, verse 27, that says, Peace, I leave with you, my peace I give you I do not give it to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. So, over the next few weeks, I encourage you all to take care of yourself and remember this is a time to celebrate Jesus' birth. You get to love your family and love the people in your life. We can all be a beautiful example of Jesus.

Playlist puntata nr. 04 01 - John Mayall – California 02 - John Martyn – Go Down Easy 03 - Terry Callier – No More Blues 04 - Mark-Almond – The City 05 - Sessa – Canção da Cura 06 - Rudy Marra – Gaetano 07 - Red House Painters–Song for a Blue Guitar 08 - Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young – Helpless 09 - She & Him – I Should Have Know Better 10 - Scout Niblett – Dinosaur Egg 11 - Police – Wrapped Around Your Finger 12 - Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds – Black Hair 13 - Joni Mitchell – Love Puts on a New Face 14 - Shawn Phillips – Moonshine 15 - Matthew and The Atlas – I Will Remain 16 - Lo Fidelity Allstars – Don't be Afraid of Love 17 - Peter, Paul and Mary – It's Raining

Today I have the privilege of sharing with you, Mary Powell. The reason I'm bringing Mary on is because she's having some wonderful success in her trading, and we want to share that and she has a lot of lessons. And also she wants to share. But Mary, you might not know this, you are, you have the privilege of being the first female trader that we're interviewing on the podcast. So I haven't interviewed too many people on the podcast, most of the episodes have just been me. But we have been starting to interview, you know, people that are going through our programs and having success and different different traders, and our listeners seem to like it. So I said, Alright, let's bring some more on. But I did want to get it from a female perspective, because I do know that and studies have shown this that females are better at trading than men. Mary: There is that? And let's hope I'm not the last. Allen: No, no, you won't be. Mary: Start a new trend. Allen: Yeah. Yep. So I'm trying to line up a couple more. So hopefully, we'll have a lot more. Okay. And I am seeing that we are seeing more females in the program. So before, when we started, it was almost 100% All men, now it's become maybe 80-20. I think that with people like you coming on and sharing and saying, Hey, look, you know, women can do this as well, it's, there's nothing, there's no magic or anything to it. I think you'll be a role model for others who are trying it, but they haven't maybe stepped forward or they haven't put their hands up and said, hey, you know, I'm interested or something. So I think definitely, that will help. Because a lot of times, you know, when we're doing some type of like a case study with someone, it might be like, Oh, maybe it's a grandfather that lives or they used to work as a firefighter, you know, and he's talking about his story and this and that, then we'll notice that all of a sudden, we get a big influx of people who are grandfathers who used to be firefighters, or other firefighters. So whoever the case study is we seem to attract people like that. So I'm hoping that we can attract more women into the group. So I think that you're a trailblazer for that. So thank you Mary: Hoping for that as well. We can all support each other.  Allen: Cool. So Mary, how long have you been trading options? Mary: I have been trading options for more than 20 years, I will date myself and tell you that I did participate back in the late 90s when the option Industry Council to still a marvelous group of free education on options. But at that time, they were trying to solicit more business in the options. And they would go to various big metropolitan cities, rent hotel banquet rooms, and give two or three day training sessions for free about options. And so that's how long I've known about options. I would say I was probably a dabbler for a long time trying to master the various concepts about the Greeks and different option strategies. And my career probably took the front seat at that time, and I just didn't dedicate the time needed to really focus on it. Until probably in the last five years, many people in my family or friends have retired. And when I went to the financial planner and start working the numbers, and I didn't like those numbers. Wanna see, you got to work for 10 or 15 more years, I'm very fortunate that I do enjoy my job. But I don't want to have to have that pain over me that I'm a slave to it. So that's when I really got serious and started really honing my attention and my education efforts on options. Allen: So about five years ago, you got serious? Mary: Yeah. Allen: And I want to ask you like back in the day when you first when you when you first start, would you remember how much the commission's were back then? Mary: They were probably in the range of 14 to $16 and each, each side, so you know, $30 a round trip and that was back in the day when the naming nomenclature was alphabetical. They didn't go by month in week. They didn't even have weeklies back then. Yeah. So you had to learn all of that. Yeah, it's been fun to watch the evolution and with electronic trade.  Allen: Yeah I mean it's so so much simpler now and easier. And I remember, like, I didn't get started. I don't know. It's been a while. I think it's like maybe 15-16 coming close to 20 years for me, but when I started Thinkorswim was already there. And, you know, everybody was blown away. They're like, Oh my god. This is so amazing. So I'm like, okay, but this is cool. It's good. I mean, it's good to have these nice features and stuff, but I don't get but they're like, now you don't understand. You don't understand what we've been through. You know, to get a quote, you have to call your broker on the phone. And then he has to go look it up for you. And it takes like, 10 minutes to get a quote. Oh, wow. Okay, yeah, this is all real time. This is cool. This is better. So yeah, people starting now. I mean, the tools available education is available. It's a lot simpler than back in the day. So was it just because of the money aspect that got you involved in Options? Or was there something else? Mary: It was primarily the money aspect. And, you know, I was working a full time job, but I wanted to get into more multiple streams of income in different ways. But my job requires probably 50 plus hours a week. So that did limit me from what I can go out and get a second job. I just totally burnout so and I didn't have the time to focus to open my own business or do something like that. So what could I do that could generate cash flow that didn't require a lot of time? That's where Options fit into the scenario. Allen: Okay. And you you're working from home right now? Mary: Yes. Allen: Okay. What do you do? If you don't mind? Mary: I'm an auditor. Allen: Okay. For like, the for the IRS or something or? Mary: No, for a retail company - food retailer, I audit financial statements. Okay, like Sarbanes Oxley. Allen: So okay, so about 50 hours a week you spend on the job? How much time do you spend trading? Mary: So overall, all of my trading, I probably spend, I'll say, a half an hour a day. Allen: Okay. Mary: When I started with your group, I first started with the blank check program. So in that trading, if I'm not making a trade that day, I probably spend five minutes a check - twice a day, which more out of curiosity than necessity. I could check it once a day. If I'm making a trade, I might spend 10 to 15 minutes analyzing what I'm going to do, and then I make the trade for the month. Okay. Allen: And so what have your results been so far? Mary: So far? So I started trading live, blank check program in February of this year. And in that eight months, I've averaged 7% return per month. Mary: Very nice. And so far, I've made 16,500. I started just with the minimum amount to open an account on TD Ameritrade, 10,000. Okay, and I have added some more money, so I could expand the number of contracts I trade in. Allen: Awesome. So what's your goal? Is it to put it aside for retirement or double your income, supplement the income, so you can try early? Mary: Put it aside for retirement, and then in the hope of retiring early, in the next three to five years? Allen: So basically, you're gonna, you're gonna you're gonna leave the money in and just keep growing that account? Mary: Yes. Allen: Okay. How long do you think it'll take? Mary: So, with the blank check trading in conjunction with my equities trading, which I was just starting before getting introduced to your podcast, and we can talk about that, but I was just starting to kind of glean in on the selling puts strategy and your paths of trading - the wheel strategy, right before I started listening to your podcast. So between the two accounts, I hope to be able to retire in three to five years. Allen: That's awesome. That's awesome. So about five to seven years early. Mary: Yes. Allen: Okay. And do you have any children? Mary: No, I do not. Allen: Okay. All right.  Mary: So that makes it easier. Allen: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You know, she, she, she enjoys learning about the trading. And I've taught her in the past, but eventually, and then she started her own business. And so she's busy with there, and then she's busy with the kids. And she's like, Yeah, I don't want to deal with the trading. You know, she's like, you're doing fine. You do it. I don't want to deal with it. But we do have somebody else on our staff. And she is, unfortunately her husband passed away. I think it's been about a year and a half or two years from cancer. And so she's raising her four boys alone. And, you know, at the company here, I make it a requirement that everybody that works here, they have to know how to trade whether they do it We're not, you know, that's up to them. But they have to know what our customers are going through. They have to know the lingo, they have to know how to articulate. And so she's been, she's been killing it since she started. She said, she's learning and she's like, Oh, my god, you know, I've been working with you for two years. Now, why didn't I do this before? So.. Mary: Oh that's excellent! Allen: Yeah, it's, it's really, it's really cool. And the fact that, you know, you mentioned it only takes a few minutes a day, you can still work, you can still handle other responsibilities. It's not that it's not that time consuming. So that's one of the things I get, we got to get the word out, you know, we got to get the word out. Mary: I know but my heart goes out when I see older, retired individuals in the workforce. And I just say to myself, I hope they're doing it for social reasons and not economic, that they made the choice that they want to be out here working, because this is that easy at that age, and I give them all the credit in the world. Allen: Yeah, I mean, you know, you go to Walmart, and they have the greeters. And you know, they're standing there, and they can't, it's tough to see, it really is. But you said that you had started trading options about five years ago? Or was that Equities and Options or? Mary: That was just the equities? Allen: How are you doing with that? Mary: Very well, very well. That account is much larger. And, again, you know, I have to employ passive trading, because I just don't have the time. But I'm averaging 6% a month on that. So just to your principles may not seem like a lot, and I'm not going to be a millionaire overnight. But the compounding principle, in action, will. Allen: Yeah, no, 6% a month is nothing to.. Mary: No yeah so I'm beating the gentlemen over at a brokerage to remain nameless that other smaller accounts I have. So I'm very happy with the return. Allen: Cool. So how do you balance? Like, how do you decide how much to have in each? Because I mean, you said you're doing better in the oil. So however you decided, which is which you want to focus more time on? Mary: That's kind of a crossroads that I'm at, at this point, because I am doing so well, that I mentioned to you, the financial advisor, when I went last month for my tax checkup said, you have stopped trading for the year, or you're going to throw yourself into the next tax bracket, you do not want that. Focus has become the task, tax aspects of it all. So again, kudos to your podcast, because you address those types of things, all the section 1256 types of trades. And so that's where I'm at right now is evaluating. Okay, do I move more of my money into the oil trading? And I just signed up for the weekly trader, which is good deal more in the index funds - yes. So that would give me a better tax advantage. Allen: Okay. All right. Yeah. I mean, you, you know, I've never I know you can buy SPY. I don't know if you can buy SPX I've never actually tried to, that'd be interesting to know, cuz I know, the SPX. You know, the SPX does give you the tax advantage, the 1256. But I've never actually tried to buy a share of that. I don't know if you can, I know, you could buy call options, or, but I don't know if that'll be interesting to know. Yeah. Mary: Check it out. It's a first world problem. And I'm kind of on the water as well as like, do I keep working? or Now I, you have given me the freedom of time choice and choice do I mean, I could make what I make at my job trading? Do I do that full time? Or do I, you know, stick with the job as I can, then knowing that I do have the freedom of choice that if it gets to be too much, or I don't want to do it anymore, and I walk away from it. Allen: So you can you do that now? Or you could have to wait another three years? Five years? Mary: I could do that now. I think I'm just sticking with it. Because of the health insurance. And those sides thing? Yeah, I could still manage the job and the trading... Allen: Right. Right. So why not? Right. And you said there's, you know, there's a social aspect. So, you know, you've known these people for so long that it's like, kinda like family now. Mary: They are. That's very true. Yes, I have a great team that I work with. Allen: Cool, cool. So how does your husband feel about you trading? Mary: He has no interest in it whatsoever. He just lets me do my thing. I mean, I'm not used to getting his money or the mortgage money. So he just saw that's her little hobby. He's retired. So he spends most of his day either on a motorcycle or a mountain bike or doing the hobbies he enjoys. So.. Allen: Wow very nice. So he's never told you to be like, Hey, can you take care of my money too? Mary: Oh, he wanted me to do that with his 401k. And like no. Not gonna enable you, I'd be happy to teach you what I do. Allen: Well that was fun. Mary: He went out and got a money manager and.. Allen: Ahh that was funny.. you guys can do it together you know, swap stories, discuss different ideas, argue about which ticker symbols to buy. Mary: Yeah, I don't think you can handle the... honestly. Allen: It's not for everybody. No. Now the funny thing is, I do remember when you first called us so you got on the phone with us to learn about the program, and to get in. I actually talked to you, which I haven't I don't really talk to most people, but I don't know what it was. I was listening to you talking and you know, with Cory, you're going back and forth. And I hopped on the call, and you're like, Yeah, I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna think about it. And then I was like, okay, you know, and then later on, you actually came back. And you actually, you actually came back and did it. In hindsight, would you still have waited? Mary: Well, no, it was active waiting. You know, it was the trust, but verify. So what I did after that call was based on what I knew, and kind of figured you were doing with these options I pay a portrayed is for three months. And it was all positive. So I said, Okay, I'm gonna take the leap of faith and go for it. Allen: Cool, good. So that means, yeah, so you've had like, instead of just eight months, you've had like, 11 months of gains? Mary: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that you talked about on one of the podcasts is, you mentioned compared to individuals, one person took the program and went and did really well with it. And the other person just over analyzed and questioned and said, you know, it's too simple. This can't work again, if you had to ask me what was my biggest challenge in implementing it was just grasping the simplicity of it. I was like, Okay. And granted, I, you know, I did come in knowing the fundamentals of Options Trading, but I went through the, there's only six lessons. And so I was like, Well, I must be really tired. Maybe they're on a more on a different page or get it again, tomorrow. Nope, I came back. And I went through the six lessons again. And I went, Okay, let's do it took a deep breath and placed the trade and been good ever since. Allen: That's awesome. That's great to hear. Yeah. You know, I mean, I always tried to keep it as simple as possible. And sometimes like, as options traders, you know, if you come in learning about options, and like you said, you know, you go to the council, and they tell you, Oh, you got to know the Greeks. And you got to know the gammas and the Vegas and, and all this stuff. And people come in and they're like, what about this? What about that? And I'm like, you don't need to worry about it. It's like, Mary: There's so many strategies and strangle... there's iron condor, and people just get overwhelmed. Yo, I don't know where to start or how to do it. And when you look at your system, you're just like, Nope, just follow the straight path that I've already blazed for you. And it'll all be good. Allen: Yep. The biggest problem I have some time is like, you know, like, I knew that you had been doing it, you had been trading for a while. So in my mind, it was like, okay, you know, my hardest part with you is going to be to get you to maybe suspend disbelief a little bit, and to kind of stop doing all the stuff you're already doing. You know, and be like, this is the path just follow these steps. You don't need to do anything else. Just, you know, don't overcomplicate it, because we have people in the program in the group. They come in and they're like, Yeah, you know, you told me to do this but you I'm gonna do this double Condor butterfly thingy. And I'm like all right, let me know how it turns out. Mary: Yeah, it's like bumper bowling just head down the middle keep aiming the head bin?  Allen: Yeah, that's why sometimes.. Mary: ..you're out to do I mean, no, it has I get myself in trouble is if I go against the rules, and they a towel, and then my tracking sheet of what rule did I violate and what lessons did I learn from it? And so I only have myself to blame. It's not the program. Allen: Cool. Cool. So what was besides the simplicity, what was the hardest thing to implement? Or like this could be for your equity trading or for your options trading, to go from, you know, learning and not doing as well, to making that switch to being okay, now I'm becoming consistently profitable. What did it take to make that switch for you? Mary: I think in your mind, you're always trying to hit that home run that you talk about. But if you just get your consistency down with the base hits and small amounts, just keep compounding and keep compounding, you know, all of a sudden, you look at the balance, and you're like, wow, alright, I'm getting some traction, and I'm making progress. And I can do this, I can do this. Allen: Awesome. So what was the biggest challenge in implementing? Mary: Again, I think it's just trying to keep myself from over analyzing it all the time trying to make it more difficult than it is because it's like, well, if it's this easy, and why isn't everyone doing it? Right? So your brain is going, Well, maybe if I add this, or I start looking at this number, analyzing this graph, or this chart, I'll get the edge and it's like, no, just, you know, take a little cream off the top and minimize your stress. And, you know, keep compounding and you'll get there. Allen: So how was it? How did you overcome that in your own mind?  Mary: Just trying to be grateful and satisfied with the results that I have, and not be greedy? Yep. Yeah, keep reminding myself, it's gonna be okay. You know, no matter what happens, now, I have the knowledge and the tools to always be able to financially provide for myself. And that freedom, we can't put a price on it. And I can't thank you enough. I owe you immensely. Allen: No, you're the one that did all the work so...   Mary: But you shared it, and you don't give up on me. Yeah, I'm just a stubborn Irish girl, you let it settle. And I'll come back around. Allen: Yeah, we nobody has accused us of not sending enough emails. Mary: I love your email. Allen: Like one of my mentors years ago, when somebody that I learned from, you know, he kept drilling it into everybody's head, anybody that listened that, you know, get a good education, because that is the one thing that nobody can take away from you, you know, they can take away everything else. They could take away your status, your money or your, you know, physical belongings they can. And he was talking to people from different countries. So he's like, you know, they could expel you out of your country, and kick you out and take everything that you have, but they can never take your education, you will take that with you everywhere you go for the rest of your life. And I think you hit it on the on your head, you know, when you when you mentioned that you're like, now I have a skill that no matter what happens, I'm going to be able to just, you know, go into the market and just extract money. And.. Mary: Yeah, even if all I need is, you know, if I retired and I just need the money to pay the property taxes. I can do that and spend the rest of my time I may be on the beach, but yeah.. Allen: Yep. And you I mean, you compare that to, you know, like the financial planners, you know, they go to school, they get degrees, they follow the news, and this and that, and they do all this research every day, and they're supposed to know everything that's going on in the economy in the market and everything. And hands down. You're beating them. It's like, why are you guys doing that hard, it's tough. If you could do this instead? Mary: So to bring it back here point about being a woman. I mean, we know they are better traders statistically, but just we know in the workforce, you get discriminated against and your pay. And as a petite woman Oh, even more so everybody treats me like a child. You see me at car dealership? Oh, oh, no. Yeah, no. They just only talked to my husband. And he's like, don't talk to me, she's the one buying the car. You know, for you to be honoring to women to give that gift. And it's that freedom of choice that you don't have to be locked into a situation or stay with an individual or with a company if you don't want to only for financial reasons that you can have the freedom to choose the life you want. Allen: Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. I haven't like as a man. I've never even thought about that. You know, I've never had to think about that. Yeah, that you can if you're in a situation that it's not healthy, that a lot of women like you said they feel trapped. They can't leave because they're dependent on one thing or another and they don't have the resources to handle it now especially.. Mary: When you're behind the screen. There's no discrimination. They don't know who you are. You're just out there trading with everybody else. So it's a level playing field. You can make it happen. Allen: Yeah, and you're actually going It's not even level you have the advantage. For, whatever reason, you know, I guess they say that the female mind doesn't take as much risk. It's, you know, it's more about staying calm and collected. And like you said this the small games and watching out for security more than, hey, I want to hit the Grand Slam, maybe that that's what it is but yeah.. Mary: Put your ego aside a little bit and, and in for people that I know a lot of people I'm not good at math. That's not it either, you know, I think if you're like you say if you're wise, big enough, you can learn this. And it's a B, if you're in a store, and they raise the prices on everything by 50%, you're gonna get out of the store, right? If you're in the store, and they lower the price by 50%, you're gonna buy everything. So it's same kind of concept.  Allen: Yep. So all you need is a calculator. Or if not, then you could just use a spreadsheet and this spreadsheet. Cool, awesome. So what do you think the future holds for you? No Mary: Choice. And that's a good feeling that I'm not locked in. If the job gets to be too much, I can walk away and trade full time, and I'll be alright. And if the job holds out, and I retire in three to five years, then I can enjoy more time in retirement doing things I want to do and giving back. Because that's what it's about. It's a human. Allen: Mm  hmm. That's amazing. Yeah, that's great. Because I know, you know, I don't know how or when this COVID thing is gonna completely go away, or if it's ever gonna go away, but there's been a lot of people who had to quit their jobs. And they couldn't, they didn't go back to work for one reason or another. And taking early retirement. And now, it's become a lot tougher, you know, people with pre existing conditions, and then you get older and then you have to go in and it's like, yeah, I don't want to expose myself, I don't want to expose my my loved ones. And if you have something like this, where you can sit at home in a few minutes and use your intelligence and use your common sense and push some buttons, and the money, you know, it's it's, it takes a while, you know, it's not overnight, that you start making money. But I think in the long run, it's better off. And based on that, I wanted to ask you, how long did it take you to get your you know, your mind around the whole concept and start making money? Mary: In the blank check? Well, both both. I think so because I kind of started out as a dabbler and learning like everybody else and tried the strategies of buying options first. And you know, that's so hit or miss and get frustrated. And this and that. And so when I finally started going on the other side and selling options and having success, and it's like, Okay, God encouraged and, okay, now I see how this is working. Okay, let me look at every strategy and the pros and cons. And so, you know, with selling options, okay, what's the worst that can happen? I have to buy the stock. So I stick to, you know, high dividend stocks that I don't wouldn't mind owning otherwise. So that limits the risk on that. So I would say it probably took me two years..  Allen: Okay Mary: And then it  was consistent in my return.  Allen: Okay,so two years of learning, making mistakes, coming2 back having some winners and some losers. And then how about with the oil program? Mary: That was successful right off the bat. The only, you know, last month was my only negative month that I had. And again, that was my own fault. I didn't follow the rules. But but, you know, I could say I had, you know, I had the laws and still far ahead. So it's not one of these, you know, your program is not one thing. Oh, I'm gonna guarantee you, you know, million percent return. Allen: Yeah, and I mean, losses are part of the game. So, you know, you gotta learn to handle them..One time or another, it's gonna happen. So you might as well be ready for it. But, but the The important part is to know how to manage it, you know, and so yeah, I oil has been, has been interesting this year. You know, last year was interesting this year has been interesting, and who knows what the future holds. But I think one of the things that you mentioned you alluded to earlier is that when you're doing it and if you have like a community of other people that are doing it with you that you can bounce ideas off, it gets it gets so much easier, and it's not lonely. You know, one of the things that we see that people are like, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna try to learn it on my own", you really are kind of on your own. And there's nobody there helping you and supporting you along the way. So it takes, it takes much, much longer than it should, and, or that he needs to. Allen: Yeah, and I mean, losses are part of the game. So, you know. Mary: Exactly Allen: You got to learn to handle them it around it. Yeah, one one time or another, it's gonna happen. So you might be ready for it. But the The important part is to know how to manage it, you know? And so yeah, I oil has been, has been interesting this year, you know, last year was interesting this year has been interesting, and who knows what the future holds. But I think one of the things that you mentioned you're alluded to earlier is that when you're doing it, and if you have, like a community of other people that are doing it with you that you can bounce ideas off, it gets, it gets so much easier, and it's not lonely. You know, one of the things that we see that people are like, oh, yeah, I'm going to try to learn it on my own, you really are kind of on your own. And there's nobody there helping you and supporting you along the way. So it takes it takes much, much longer than it should and, or that it needs to. Mary: And when you get older, you know, time is money. And it's worth the cost of the program to gain that knowledge and have it all laid out for you. versus spending so much time trying to dabble on your own and figure it out. And with your program I mean, the Facebook group is all very supportive and sharing their ideas. And as well as the weekly calls. It's a great community. They're very welcoming and open to everyone's ideas and learning new things.  Allen: Yep. Hopefully, you know, we won't have any of that discrimination in there. I don't think we have.. Mary: No, I'm not sensitive at all. I mean, I know for when I first started calling in, I was the only woman on but nobody ever made any comments or said anything. They were very welcoming.  Allen: Yeah, and the culture is pretty clearly. It's not like an all boys club, you know, they're very clean. No dirty jokes really like that. But um, so what would be some of the takeaways that if you know, somebody came up to you and said, Hey, I'm thinking about learning to train and joining Options? What are some of the tips that you would give them? Mary: Well, going back to how I even came upon your podcast. So during COVID, I've only been familiar with your program for about a year and a half. So with COVID, I was doing more walking, so started to listening to podcasts while I walk. So I searched for options, and yours came up. And when I saw how much how many episodes there were in content, I thought, Oh, this will take me three years worth of get through..so this would be great. And I got through all those podcasts in about two or three months. That's how good they were. And every one it was like, yes, that's exactly what happened. Oh, he's given such great advice, and it is down to earth. This is the real world advice. You're not sugarcoating it, you're not making promises that you can't keep. And if I had to tell people what I learned from my 20 years of trading, it would be just what you're telling people on their podcast, you know, from the ups and the downs to how to diversify. How to protect yourself from various risks. So I can't speak to the podcast strong enough.. Allen: Thank you.. Mary: That they cover the gamut of what you're going to deal with and when you become a trader. Allen: Okay, so Okay. Okay, so listen to the podcast, but what else? What else, give you some, some behind, you know, some, some, like stuff that you learned in the trenches kind of stuff? Mary: Stuff that I learned, I'll tell you that one of the best things I learned was making mistakes, how much I learned from it. Okay, so when I was first starting to sell options, and I realized that I kinda oversold and the position went against me. And so I was going to have divided the stock. Well, it was very expensive stack and I was like, oh, no, how's this gonna work out? What's gonna happen on Monday morning, so sweating it all weekend, figuring out how I could take a home back to cover my.. this and that and then just through going through it, then I realized, well, Monday morning, it opened up higher so they came out ahead, you know, they signed it to me, and then I resold it. So it was like, oh, okay, that's how that works. No problem. I know. No, I can handle it. That was my story. Allen: Yeah, yeah. Nobody showed up to my house. You know, want to break my kneecaps or anything? Yeah, a lot of a lot of on that point, there's a lot of things that we are afraid of that "oh, this is going to happen and that's going to happen" and we're not we haven't gone through it yet. And we just have these fears and when we actually go through it, it's like, oh, that's not what I was expecting at all. Mary: Yeah that's not so bad, I can handle that. So exactly, put a lot of that fear to rest in my head. Allen: Okay, so what are the worst things about trading for you? Mary: The worst thing? That there's so many things to choose from, from so many equities you can choose to dabble in and so many different strategies, just trying to find what your niche is. And you know, what works for you and what you're comfortable with. Well, I think finally, after all this time, I've been trading, I kind of have a cadence know, the stocks I like, which ones you get a feel for them, and you get a sense of how they move. And so that was kind of a switch for me, I guess, in the equities tend to trade a lot of high volatility stocks. Went to oil, in my mind, commodities, because I didn't have any frame of reference, except the old movie from the 80s. You know, one minute, you're up half a million and soybeans, the next they breach, your kids aren't going to college presents your... So I was worried that it would be even higher volatility than what I was used to. But it turned out to be the opposite. It wasn't as volatile. So I would make correcting move (inaudible) was gonna be a lot more volatile. And it was, so I've had to adapt in a good way. Allen: Okay. Yeah, most people told me the opposite. They're like, Yeah, this is, it moves a lot more than I'm expecting,  because of the leverage that's involved. Okay. So what was it that that attracted you to oil in the first place? Mary: It was the diversity from the equities, being able, again, like your multiple streams of income, I can do the same thing, but in different avenues. So that if something happens on the stock side, so I have the oil, and it was the tech draw of it. Okay, the benefits on the tech side? Okay. Allen: All right. Do you, now looking forward? Is there anything else that you're going to be trying? Or are you happy with what you got going on right now? Cuz I mean, you know, 6%, on one side, 7% average on the other side per month? That's really good. You know, you could easily turn that into a few million dollars the next few years, just compounding every month, over and over again. Do you think you need something else itching or are you just content? Mary: I just because, I get itchy and you know, there's a bird chirping in my ear about the whole crypto, you know, so, you know, I was looking into different started watching some videos or informational stuff on trading crypto in a Roth IRA. Allen: Really, inside a Roth? Mary: Yeah. So that if it goes big and you get the home run, then, you know, you don't have to get hit so hard with the tax.  Allen: Right, right. Mary: You know and being closer to retirement. Okay. For me, it's a different if you were 20 years or something. Allen: So would you have to have a like a self directed IRA this year, that special broker? Okay, all right. Okay. Mary: So but.. you know.. Allen: Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I have some, you know, I've been buying a little bit for the past several years now, just holding it and be like, Yeah, I'm not gonna trade it because I don't know where it's going up. And when it's going down, just been just invited a little bit here and there and just sticking in leaving it in the wallet and it's just, you know, just going up and up and up. It's crazy time do we live in? You know, like you said, 20 years ago, 14, 18, $20 a commission, you had to call your broker up to place a trade. Now, it's like, you know, press a few buttons 15-20 minutes a day, like you said, I don't know, man, we're living in great times. Mary: There's so many choices. You know, I do listen to some podcasts from CME Group is different ones. And just that team, they're expanding their offerings, you know, getting more into micros and the minis on all the indexes, because that's what people want. And they're starting to get into smaller units on the crypto currency and they don't have options on those futures yet, but you can tell there's enough audience questions about it that there's interest and I'm sure it'll come to be. Allen: Yeah. I think part of it is just they just want to make more money, you know. Mary: Their commissions are getting smaller and smaller. So they have to find ways to diversify as well. Allen: Yeah, the more stuff they have that people can trade, the more fees they can charge on their features. but cool. Okay, well, I appreciate your time. Is there anything else that you want to share with our audience? Mary: No, I appreciate the invitation. And just I would say, if you're new to options, don't get overwhelmed. Because I'm still learning, I pick up books. And, you know, I just, it's a hobbies, interest. And I like reading different books about it. But if you just learn one new thing a day, in no time you'll have it so don't get overwhelmed. And anyone's thinking about going into these programs with Allen's team and just have faith in the process and the program. He and his team are there to support you. It's not some fly by night, answering service, you can get a hold of Allen, you can get a hold of his team. So you know, that kind of put substantiation behind it. So have a faith in Allen's programs and have faith in yourself. Because you can do it, just get past fear and go for it. Allen: Well said, well said, Awesome. And thank you for this so well, the kind words, I really appreciate it. Nothing makes me happier when we have a success story or somebody saying, hey, you know what, I tried that. I just listened to you. And I did it. And it really worked. And I'm like YAY because like my wife. She knows trading, you know, she's she was interested in the beginning. And so I taught her some stuff, but I can't really go home and talk to her about it all day, cuz she'll like, she'll be like, stop. I don't really care. It's fun. It's fun when other people come back, and they like, Yeah, wow, it really worked. And I'm like, All right, Yay, we're actually making a difference in the world. So I appreciate that. Mary: You told me so. And you were right. Allen: Cool, cool. So for our listeners, I just wanted to sum up what Mary shared with us. So she's been doing oil options for about eight months now making consistent returns, she's also trading in a different account stocks, and you're doing some high volatility trades, right? And then you're also doing some low volatility stuff where you're doing like passive style with covered calls naked puts, and.. Mary: I'm mostly doing naked, puts on everything. Allen: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, those have been working amazingly well, I've been doing those as well just gotta make sure that you're protected when the market turns around. Cool. And then it was interesting that you said that, you know, your, your financial adviser told you, hey, you need to stop making money. Because otherwise, can you stop trading please because you're gonna go into higher tax.. Mary: Oh, my goodness. Allen: Like, okay, you know, give me some ideas, you know, how to, like, you know? Like, don't tell me to stop making money. You don't tell me, okay, give us give us a charity or something else? Or give you some ideas? Don't tell me to stop making it. Come on.  Mary: Exactly. Allen: That was interesting. And then I love the fact that she said that, you know, if you wanted to, you could stop working right now. And you could just live off your trading income. And that gives you complete freedom. And that gives you, you know, the choice of, hey, do I want to keep doing this? Do I want to stay at work, or if things deteriorate, you know, who knows what's gonna happen with the future, what's going on? If anything goes different topsy turvy, you have the choice of staying, or leaving or moving, you know, you could go to another country and, and who knows what, anything's possible. So I love that fact that you've been able to get to that point. And, you know, kudos to you, you did the work, you put in the time you learned, you tried it, you practiced it, and then you just followed, you know, you didn't mess with it very much. You followded the rules, and it's working, and you're like, Okay, you know, I can do this. It's good. And it's been wonderful to have a female perspective. I mean, you enlighten me about, you know, having that freedom of not having to be in that bad situation. If you are in one, you know, Mary: Yeah. Or, like, you know, the person on your team who not by choice, but is in a position of having to raise children with, you know, no partner and having to build a come up with that income to do that. Yeah, that's scary to be in that position. Yeah, I mean, for you're gonna do. Allen: Four boys is not cheap, you know. So it's like, she could either be working 50-60 hours and try to pay for everything, because she's got, you know, all four of them are gonna be heading to college soon. So that's not going to be cheap, either. And you can either do that, or, you know, she's working less than 40 hours now, and she's supplementing that with the money that she makes from her trading. So it's amazing. The blessings We get from this stuff. But yeah, you know, kudos to you. Definitely you looked into it, you learned about it and you said hmm. Okay, let me try. Yeah. And that took you down. It took you down a road that you never knew what the outcome would be. But the outcome has been amazing so far. So I'm really proud of you did a great job. Mary: I would not have explored that on my own. You know, if it wasn't for your program, I would have never looked into the oil. Allen: Yeah. Well, we're here for you. We're here for you know, all the other students that we have. We do our best. And again, I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Those of you are listening. If you want to reach out to Mary. She is in our Facebook group. Thank you so much, Mary, and we'll talk to you soon. Mary: You're welcome. Thank you for the invitation. Been a pleasure. Thank you LOVE ALLEN SAMA - OPTION GENIUS AND WANT TO LEARN MORE TRADING TIPS  AND TRICKS? HERE ARE SOME NEXT STEPS... SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PODCAST FREE 9 LESSON COURSE: https://optiongenius.com/  WATCH THIS FREE TRAINING: https://passivetrading.com  JOIN OUR PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP: https://optiongenius.com/alliance  Like our show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps.

  Summary: Mary has long term recovery and works as a LADC licensed addiction councilor for the center for drugs and alcohol and works as on-call chaplain. She leads spirituality groups with persons in recovery. Our discussion on procrastination is a response to stress because of a lack of clarity. It also is a response to anxiety and uncertainty, or not knowing the next steps to take. Whether it is a response to calling a bill collector, having a difficult conversation, or cleaning house, we all fall into procrastinating something. When it becomes chronic then we may need professional help, but when it is a poor habit, we can correct it by awareness and taking a small action to get motivated. Being willing to look at the deeper reason we procrastinate is key. [00:00:00] Vicky: Hello, Mary. Glad to have you here with me. [00:00:04] Mary Carlson: Hi, Vicky. [00:00:05] Vicky: Great to have you. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are? [00:00:12] Mary: My name is Mary Carlson. I am born and raised in Cloquet, Minnesota and really haven't lived anywhere outside of this area. Right now, I am employed as a casual LADC, licensed addiction counselor for the center for drugs and alcohol. Then also, I work as an on-call chaplain at Essentia Health in Duluth; stay pretty busy. I'm also a woman in recovery, so taking care of my recovery is important to me. I am married. We have a little dog here, her name is Bailey. I have four children; three biological children and one bonus child, I call him. He's our oldest child. We have nine grandchildren. Stay really busy just with life stuff. [00:01:05] Vicky: It sounds like it. Between counseling and your ministry, being a chaplain, that's interesting combination. [00:01:15] Mary: It is. I've actually never worked as a counselor in a field having to do all the work that counselors do because they do a lot of paperwork. When I went to school to become a chaplain, I learned early on that in order to do any kind of a group in a treatment center that I had to be a licensed counselor. That's mainly why I got my license for counseling is because I couldn't do a group without one. The groups that I've done with people for the last 20 years have been primarily spirituality groups, not religious groups; I like to make that clear. I even make that clear to my group because, unfortunately, it seems as if religion is brought up, there's usually an argument. The groups I do with people are more about finding what's in them, the worthiness in them, especially to remain-- like to find a place in sobriety, how to use that part as a strength to keep them going and recovery. [00:02:17] Vicky: Wonderful. Our topic today is procrastination, is it a problem or a response? [laughter] I think for me it can be both, right? First, it's a response and then it becomes the problem, I think. What triggers procrastination for you do you think? [00:02:38] Mary: Different things trigger procrastination for me and different times in life-- sometimes I'll procrastinate-- Well, I guess the biggest thing for me that causes me to procrastinate is not knowing what I'm doing, the fear of not knowing what I'm doing, not being really clear on it. For example, I knit and crochet. If I hit a part in the pattern that I'm not familiar with like I have to do this little mental gymnastics to get myself to pick it up and work through it. The funny thing is, once I get to it and work through it, it's fine. Just getting myself to that place to actually pick it up because I just-- I don't know, there's something about my brain that wants to shut off if I'm not real clear. I've noticed that throughout different situations in my life too. If I'm going to walk into a situation and I don't have a real clear understanding of what's going to happen in that situation, it causes me a little bit of angst. [00:03:38] Vicky: Yes, so connected to lack of clarity and maybe some anxiety around the uncertainty. [00:03:46] Mary: Definitely, yes. I think maybe even a little deeper is thinking that I should be able to just do it all. I should just be able to whip through this knitting, it shouldn't have to be a problem that I have to pay attention. [00:03:57] Vicky: That I think is an important point. We expect so much of ourselves. [00:04:02] Mary: Yes. [00:04:04] Vicky: What feelings cascade from procrastination? [00:04:08] Mary: Mostly, I think dread. I think I could link exhaustion to that because every time that thought comes into my mind that I should be doing it and then I shut it down, it just makes me tired. The funny thing is, I can remember having a lot of procrastinating maybe looking for a different job or talking to somebody that I don't feel like talking to, so finding every single reason I can to put that off. Then I finally come to the point where I have to do it and I do it and I'm like, "Why did I wait so long?" You know? [00:04:57] Vicky: Right. I love that dread feeling that we get, and it's an energy suck, isn't it? [00:04:54] Mary: Yes, huge energy, for sure. [00:04:59] Vicky: What do you observe about yourself and others when they're procrastinating? [00:05:04] Mary: When I procrastinate, I feel like I get into a place where I just sit and spin. I may have one particular issue that I'm procrastinating on but it starts this cascade effect. It's almost at times can be paralyzing depending on what the situation is and how hard I am working on procrastinating because I think that is a conscious effort. It comes to mind, "I don't want to do it, I'm going to put it off to the side," and it keeps bouncing back and you keep putting it off and it bounces back. [00:05:41] Vicky: That spinning, especially as it's something more important and it's looming larger and larger, then I start freezing up on everything. That physical response of fight or flight or freeze; for me, I'll start to be freeze. I think that's in response to, "I would flight if I could. Nowhere to run to, it's coming down the pipe and I see it coming. Oh my God, here we go." Do you find that you procrastinate less as years of your recovery have gone by, or is it still show up frequently? [00:06:18] Mary: I think procrastinate less just because I've learned. In anything that we do, we recognize a pattern. If you start to pay attention-- or I should say, if I start to pay attention, I can usually recognize those patterns. I always tell people, "We don't change anything until we really see it." Sometimes it takes a while to see it, even if it keeps bumping me in the head, you know what I mean? Now I can recognize that as, "Oh, I'm putting something off," you know what I mean? [00:06:52] Vicky: Label it correctly. [00:06:54] Mary: Yes, "I know what this feeling is." [00:06:57] Vicky: Yes, that goes along, I can so relate because it used to be just of a generalized feeling of, "Yuck," and knowing I was wanting to dodge something but not-- like you're saying no clarity of even what I was trying to avoid does like-- [00:07:14] Mary: Yes, or that you were avoiding something. [00:07:16] Vicky: Right, and now to be able to label that. [00:07:19] Mary: It makes me think of the fifth step because I've been talking a lot about the fifth step to people-- not the fifth step, six and seven. Step six and seven, you know the our character defects? So many times for me, my character defect is a reaction. It's like a survival skill to something that's   going on deeper within me. The trick is to recognize that I-- "Oh, yes, anger, sloth," those are a couple of my procrastination character defects. Then going, "Okay, what's deeper? What's deeper than that?" and to start looking a little deeper into what's going on. [00:07:59] Vicky: The motivating factor to want to avoid in the first place. I am afraid of not being good enough? Am I afraid of rejection? Am I afraid of being punished because I made a mistake and that's my belief system, that mistakes get punished or? [00:08:20] Mary: Yes, that deeper intrinsic stuff that we carry that we're not even aware of, it shows up as character defects. [00:08:28] Vicky: Right, on the unconscious level. What tips do you have to deal with anxiety and fear before you're tempted to procrastinate? I'm sure like me you can start to sense it coming, like, "Oh, this is a pattern that I'd like you to talk about. I would normally procrastinate this,"   calling this bill collector or having this difficult conversation with my child or scrubbing the bathroom, which I hate, or whatever. [laughs] [00:08:56] Mary: Whatever, yes. I think it comes down to that same tool again of recognizing that I'm doing it again. Then I guess the other part is being more gentle to myself because I have a tendency to be really cruel to myself because if I'm not doing it right, I'm usually some kind of an idiot, and I have a whole gamut of names I call myself; even becoming aware of that and paying attention to that. [00:09:22] Vicky: You and I have been in recovery for a long time now. I was amazed in the last year in particular how much that judge still operates. [00:09:32] Mary: Oh, huge. [00:09:34] Vicky: Yes. The value of being able to identify it and talk it out with somebody else, to even say, "Hey, there you are. I see you, and I hear what you're saying, and thank you for sharing, but please be quiet now." [00:09:48] Mary: Yes, "Go find something else to do." I think that that judge during this time especially this COVID time, lockdown, and just the last four years, that judge has becomes such a huge part of our culture because there's no gray area left in life anymore; it's either you're right or I'm right. There's no give or take under-- even trying to understand, even with the procrastination stuff is like having some empathy for yourself and some understanding that usually when we procrastinate on doing something, there's an underlying reason. It might be that day that just that I'm being lazy. In a bigger scheme and a bigger picture, there might be something deeper in there that maybe needs some exploring, but to have that kindness to yourself and to recognize that. It's funny because I really-- and maybe I still hang onto that whole belief that life is just supposed to be so hunky-dory and everything's happy and I'm always smiling and life is good. The reality is, life is life and there's probably as much pain in this life as there is good. How do you walk through that, especially when we're in that place of being so cruel to ourselves? How do we have any kind of empathy or mercy for ourselves? [00:11:18] Vicky: I think what I've learned and I think you have too, those are the times to reach out to a friend and get that support. You mentioned not being clear, I can't remember how many times I'd reach out to talk to my mentor and she would say, "Well, you don't have enough information yet," and I was like, "Oh, oh." [00:11:40] Mary: That's the value of having a mentor, a sponsor, someone else in your life. I remember early on when Brené Brown wrote her first book, I went to one of her workshops, and this book was on shame. One of the things she talked about is that we should all have a shame buddy so that when that voice starts out in our head, we can have someone to check it out with who understands that voice. [00:12:06] Vicky: That concept, that is so important, to be able to help you shift from, "Oh, this is who I am. Identify that I'm a bad person because shame takes over that way," to, "Oh, I'm experiencing shame and is it legitimate in this circumstance?" [00:12:24] Mary: Right. That's another part, is understanding my shame language. [00:12:28] Vicky: Shame will shut me down, I know that. I'll practice avoidance big time if I'm in my shame part. [00:12:35] Mary: Right. Think about procrastination and-- especially like things like the bathroom, who loves cleaning the bathroom? You put it off, and then shame jumps in and says, like, "You lazy sloth." "No, I just don't want to do it today." [00:12:51] Vicky: Not my cup of tea today. Our program talks a lot about taking action; to get unstuck, you just need to take action, and even a small step can lead to another step to another step. Is there any other tools that you use to get unstuck? [00:13:06] Mary: I think that especially when I think about early on in recovery, and you just addressed it as having that other person to talk to, and I'm so grateful I had the people around me in recovery to listen to me while I muddled through all these beliefs I had. It took many conversations with many people listening to me talk about the same thing before I finally came to a conclusion on it. Even in procrastination, if it's something that keeps showing up that you're not doing, maybe have a conversation with somebody you trust, like, "Why am I so not willing to do this? What's holding me back?" [00:13:50] Vicky: Resistance, identify it. [00:13:53] Mary: This way I've learned, get through those things is to talk about them. That I don't have the answers in my head usually. [00:14:00] Vicky: Right. I've noticed about myself that if I start pulling back and withdrawing, I might need a good cry about something. I don't like to be vulnerable, but it's amazing now I've recognized, "Call somebody, have that cry, get it over with it," it clears the energy out around whatever it is. [00:14:22] Mary: So true, so very true. [00:14:25] Vicky: Do you think perfectionism has any part in procrastination? [00:14:30] Mary: I know it does in my procrastination because I think I talked about it earlier, thinking that like I had to understand everything and know how to do it before I even entered into whatever it was I was doing, like the pattern in the crocheting or whatever, that part that makes me think that, "I can't make a mistake. I can't do this wrong," huge. I think the two Ps probably are intertwined. [00:14:55] Vicky: I think so too. Digging deeper we focus on the impact on our mental and physical health, what costs are we paying when we stay stuck and resist growing. [00:15:06] Mary: The price we're paying is we don't go anywhere. I know for a woman living in recovery, it's real easy to go backwards by just avoiding that stuff. I can think about that in terms of relationships that I would get into that were so harmful, but my complete unwillingness and inability, and people would even get mad and say, "What are you staying there for?" My inability to see the reason that it was as bad as other people saw it, maybe that's it. There's this disconnect, I think, especially in relationships. What I found for me is this was part of doing a fourth-step with my former marriage is that there were a lot of things I did to survive in that marriage and to keep marriage the way I thought it should be because I was married to this human being that I thought I saw all these qualities in; however, those qualities would never show. His behaviors were completely contrast to what I thought I saw in him. In doing that, my sponsor had me write a letter to him, not to give to him but just write a letter to him, and identify every place in that marriage that I did things to cause the marriage harm. I think I was far enough along where I was able to really look and see. What I realized is the things that I expected him to be when he wasn't able to be that, were also very shaming to him and it led to a lot of his behaviors. Does that make sense? [00:16:46] Vicky: It does. [00:16:46] Mary: It helped me to forgive myself because I didn't see it in me, and it helped me to forgive him because I saw how painful that must have been to him. [00:16:58] Vicky: You just touched on something for me that causes me still to procrastinate. I don't like endings, any kind of ending. If it's a season, summer is ending and it's coming to fall; if it's a relationship; a job. The idea that everything has its time and its place, man, I'll hang on as long as I can, that's important. As we know, my show's based on small changes that lead to big shifts. What small changes could you recommend for our audience to help them get unstuck? [00:17:34] Mary: I guess the thing that's been most helpful to me is starting to pay attention to myself and my patterns. For example, in procrastination, if there's something that keeps popping up that isn't getting done, then it's time to stop and go, "Oh, okay, what's this about?" It may not be anything at all, really, but it might be something core to you. Until we start paying attention to ourselves and giving ourselves some time and some energy like we would put into our jobs, in our relationships and stuff like that, we'll never learn those things about ourselves. I think that's probably one of the biggest things I've learned to do is to start stepping back and go, "Okay, what is this?" [00:18:16] Vicky: Take an inventory of it, really admit it. [crosstalk] [00:18:19] Mary: Yes, and a kind inventory also; not just sit back and go, "Now I'm sitting here and not getting that done again. What's wrong with me?" It might not be anything wrong, it might just be-- who knows? To give ourselves that time. [00:18:35] Vicky: Curiosity, I heard you say empathize with yourself, be curious about what is this, instead of blaming and shaming ourselves say, "What is there?" There might be something that-- your inner voice, I've found sometimes is telling me, "I was going to sign up for a class not that long ago. I had the link open I don't know how many times and didn't click and register. When I paused and said, "What's that about?" just like you said, I didn't really want to go into the class. If I would have been on automatic behavior, I would've-- [00:19:13] Mary: I used to do the automatic thing a lot, I used to just jump into stuff and not give it any thought at all. [00:19:20] Vicky: Right, go from procrastination to jump both feet in, off we go. [00:19:25] Mary: Then procrastinate because you jumped in. [laughter] [00:19:30] Vicky: Being present, today you mentioned that. Do you have any services or programs that you like to promote? I always give people an opportunity to promote if they have their own business, something that they want to have people participate in, or a Facebook group they'd love to have people join. [00:19:49] Mary: No, not at this time. I don't have anything of my own. [00:19:53] Vicky: Wonderful. Thank you so much for being here, Mary. I've enjoyed our conversation. I really value your friendship. [00:19:59] Mary: Thanks for inviting me. [00:20:00] Vicky: I value that. I know we're going to collaborate and work together on some things in the future. [00:20:06] Mary: Yes, so maybe I could promote those because I'm on the same page. I have as much respect for you as I heard you say you have for me. It's fun to be on this path together. [00:20:20] Vicky: It definitely is, it definitely is. To me, that's really the value of recovery over time, is those relationships that we form with other people that uplift us, inspire us, and move us forward. I'm thinking not thinking that it has to be a big job or career or move us forward in-- [00:20:43] Mary: In life. [00:20:44] Vicky: Yes. Being kind to ourself, being loving to our family, loving to ourselves. [00:20:49] Mary: I think there's a part two about be it recovery, be it healing, whatever it is, but there's a common language that we speak. [00:20:58] Vicky: Yes, most definitely. Thank you again for being here. [00:21:04] Mary: Thank you. [00:21:05] Vicky: To my audience, I will say thank you so much for being here with us and sharing today. If you enjoyed the show, please like and leave a review. I love to get emails from my audience, so keep sending them to info@[unintelligible 00:21:18].com. Tell me what matters to you because I want to provide content that makes a difference for you. As we leave, remember, you create your beautiful life one moment, one step at a time. Bye now.

Most people probably know Cuisinart because of the company's kitchen appliances like the food processor, air fryer, or coffee maker. Cuisinart's products are everywhere — in kitchens around the world, in retail stores, and yes, online. In the last year or so, Cuisinart has put a much greater emphasis on the DTC part of the business -- walking the tightrope of being there for retail partners, while still making sure that there is enough inventory to meet the demand coming from online. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Mary Rodgers, the Director of Marketing Communications for Cuisinart, explains the steps the company took to make the pivot to DTC without leaving retail partners in the lurch. Mary also talked about how the marketing and online pushes for products went from being planned out months in advance to changing from one day to the next. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:From Months To Weeks To Days: Sometimes, the world moves so fast that planning in months-long cycles places you at a disadvantage. When demand, retailer needs, and inventory is shifting at a rapid pace, you need to come up with a plan that allows you to stay ahead of the curve, even if that means changing strategies from one day to the next.Eyes On Your Own Paper: Some brands will look to their competitors to see what influencers they are working with or how they are running their campaigns, and then they will try to copy that approach. While this is tactical, it is not strategic because you are placing blind trust in another brand's team and vision without even knowing if what they did paid off. You have to do your own homework and think about your customers' needs and build a strategy around that rather than just trying to keep up with the Joneses.More Than Just A Product: Brands have to think beyond the products they sell and understand how the customers will be using those products. Often, especially in housewares, consumers will be using one product in concert with another or as part of a recipe. By understanding the life of the consumer beyond purchase and coming up with content to connect with consumers after the fact, brands can create a more fruitful and loyal relationship with their customers.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Mary Rodgers who currently serves as the director of marketing communications at Cuisinart. Mary, welcome.Mary:Hi, I'm so glad to be here today and join you. I'm really excited about talking all things marketing.Stephanie:Yes. I can not wait. So I'd love to kind of, before we get into Cuisinart and your role there, I want to hear a bit about your background and how you even entered the world of housewares and cookware and all of that.Mary:So back in the day, I actually worked for a retailer and they worked in the housewares department and I went up through the ranks there getting to the level of assistant DM. And so that wasn't my favorite thing is, was involving a lot of scheduling people and logistics. And that was kind of my foray into the home goods' area. And then I also did work for publisher for short period of time because my background was basically literature and journalism up to that point when I was studying in college. And then I transitioned into marketing at that point in the publishing world.Stephanie:Okay, cool. And when did you get introduced to the role at Cuisinart?Mary:So I worked for a company who is much more of a legacy company. I work for a company called Farberware. They were really well known. They had a manufacturing facility in the Bronx. And they basically did everything there. We did product development, engineering. It was a really great learning experience. And my previous boss, I worked for another company called Dansk, who is now owned by Food52, they just bought them recently.Stephanie:Cool.Mary:And my boss there went to Farberware and he asked me to join him there. And then that got sold and dismantled in '96. And I had always had Cuisinart on my radar. I thought it was a really great up and coming young, kind of small organization that I felt had a lot of growth potential, which turned out to be true. And so I actually reached out to them. And I didn't know it at the time, but they were looking to fill a marketing communications position for quite a long time. Their previous person in the job had left. So I was the only candidate. But they loved my background and obviously my experience in housewares and also the fact that I had pretty deep product development experience. That wasn't the direction I wanted to go in permanently. I mean, I'm glad I know that process and I've done it, but my real expertise is marketing communications.Mary:So it's really interesting because when I joined in '96, as you can imagine was very, they really hadn't done any real marketing, not much advertising. They just really were just scrappy entrepreneurs. I think of ourselves, is that still today, but for different reasons. And it was like, the media channels then were like five channels unlike today. So obviously, as you can imagine over time, things have changed dramatically compared to when I first started, when we were so focused on things print advertising. And we matured into things like understanding the value of TV advertising. I actually built a model for the company to show them the impact of TV advertising on sales and trajectory that you can get from that.Mary:And so we forayed into that and really started building out, strengthen multiple channels and not just one. And so, today obviously it's like a whole new world. And I also like to say I consider myself a modern day marketer because there's so many things you have to be, not just aware of, but understand, now that you didn't then. It's kind of like, back in the day, you knew what the impact was on business, but now you really know what it is because you have hard data, where in the past you would rely on your retailers or sell through retailers. And so things are much, much more sophisticated now. And you also have many different avenues to test and learn too.Stephanie:Yeah. Seems like too, over the past couple of years, I mean, especially the past year, I'm sure everything's had to be rethought, replanned and planning cycles kind of go out the window. Annual plans turn into quarterly, turned into daily. And how did you guys adapt to that, the changing consumer preferences of all of a sudden people are at home, they're cooking, they need all the things to make the recipes? And I'm sure a lot of things had to change on your side as well to going to keep up with that.Mary:Yeah. One of the biggest challenges we had in the last, basically year and a half, the challenges are similar now, but for different reasons. So basically, we keep our eye very closely on trends. And when I get up in the morning, I'm reading all kinds of articles and information and just everything changes on a dime now. So you have to be on top of it all the time, but we also started to hear things from our retailers, like they were looking for goods that they maybe weren't looking for before, like bread makers, waffle makers, more coffee makers, coffee grinders because people during the time when lots of places were closed, they still wanted a great cup of coffee. They had to make it for themselves basically.Mary:So what happened for us was, and I'm really very proud of our team on this because it took a lot more effort because in the past we didn't have to worry about like, "We're out of inventory of this, we're out of inventory that. We sold out every last ice cream maker we had." In the past, we always knew we had stock and buffer stock and we never had to drill down. If we knew something was out of stock, it wasn't like 10 or 12 items, might be one-offs or something. So we ended up going from an annual planning phase to quarterly, to monthly, to weekly, to daily. And we spent a lot more time and effort on operational issues, just moving inventory to our D2C business, which became a whole hoo-ha.Mary:And then also just making sure that we had inventory. We at least had certain amount of retailers that had inventory of an item. And with every marketing program we did, we did that. So it took a lot of juggling. We had to push things out. We had to keep our eye on incoming inventory when it was going to be available, when retailers were going to have it. And so it became very tactical to be completely honest with you. Like something that you think is your strategic, but it doesn't matter, at the end of the day, you're going to have all the strategy you want if you don't have the goods, right?Stephanie:Yeah.Mary:And we also, I personally noticed this with some of our retail partners, because a lot of the retail partners in the very beginning went into complete shut down. They shut the stores down. But they can't easily turn things off. And so they were running campaigns for things they had no product, which is the one thing that makes me crazy is to know people are spending time, money, effort, and resources marketing something that you can't sell because you're not going to convert if you don't have it. So whatever data you do get is not going to be very valuable at all. And then it becomes no history. Right?Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).Mary:So you look back at that program, and you're like, "Well, it didn't do well." And then you have to remember all the things around it that happened. The reason why it didn't do well. And then you just wasted a lot of effort for no-Stephanie:No return.Mary:... benefit.Stephanie:Yeah. So when thinking about a daily planning process, what were some of the key lessons when you look back, you're like, "Oh, this would have helped make it easier," and are you still doing that today right now? Because that sounds insane, looking every day at the trends and hearing from the market and being like, "Oh, people want this, and now it's shifting here and we need a marketing campaign around this." And also getting all the backend right and making sure that you've got the inventory and it's all tied together. How would you set it up today? And would you still advise on daily planning processes?Mary:Yeah. So I would say to you, it's not the way we like to do things. But it was just, we just didn't want to be spending time, money, and effort on something that wasn't going to produce for us. So we felt it was necessary. And I would still do it today because we were, I mean, we are nimble. So the fact that we could say, "Hey, bread makers are doing really well right now. Let's make sure we're making people aware that we have bread makers and we're selling them." And I mean, that was not that big of a challenge for us, but when we ran out of bread makers, I had to say to our team, I'm like, "Well, you know what? Even though you don't have a bread maker, you can still mix dough in a food processor or you can use one of our stand mixers." And so change the storyline basically and look at it from a different direction.Mary:Or the other thing we did is when there was a yeast shortage start giving people ideas on other things that you can make that don't have yeast without having to go into the whole sourdough trend which would have been, not exactly making bread today. Right?Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. That's like, making do with what you got and just shifting the storyline. I mean, because I think the amount of searches I've always put in to be the replacement for soy sauce, the replacement for eggs, and really leaning into that trend of being like, "We can't help you here, however, you don't even need that thing. And now maybe you do need it." How do you get your team thinking in that kind of mindset? Because I'm imagining when you come to daily planning processes, you really have to decentralize the entire team structure to let them make these quick moves and throwing campaigns and setting them free to do what they know is best.Mary:Yeah. So I mean, my style, my leadership style, I'm not a micromanager. I don't believe in micromanagement. My personal belief is that when you empower your team to own their business, they're more committed to it. And so that's the approach I take, but I'm definitely involved in all aspects of the business and guiding them in those ways. Trying to help them think a little bit differently about their approach. But at the end of the day, they're the ones coming up with the alternative content based on those comments. I'm not the one doing that. I'm definitely letting them own all of that themselves. And we work with a lot of external agency partners. So we work really, really closely with them and they are also working with each other.Mary:So it's not a siloed system, basically. All our agency partners know each other. We are really good at making sure that we're having constant lines of communication open based on whatever's happening in our business. And also down to any aspect of marketing that we're using to promote product. And then the only thing I would other say is that you had asked me earlier about what's changed compared to last year? So I'm sure you've heard that the marketplace, the supply chain marketplace is still highly disrupted, but for different reasons now. So the reasons now are basically raw material shortages, huge increases in the price of containers, cost of containers.Mary:And most people in the durable goods category, they are bringing goods into the country. And then a lot of people are spending time trying to diversify their supply chain in order that they're not heavily reliant on one point of reference for their goods. But that's also something that can't happen overnight. That's something that has to be, it's long-term. That's a longterm position. But we're already hearing in the marketplace that some competitors are basically not going to have inventory of certain items. It's not going to happen. So we also then look at those opportunities and try to capitalize on those opportunities because if we do have supply of similar product in the same category, we are going to try to help out our retailers and make sure that we get them supply to fill those holes for them. And so our team, we have a decent-sized planning team that work really closely with the division heads to make sure that they're focusing on the items that have the greatest need.Stephanie:So how do you create a open conversation with retailers or other partners to figure out what they're missing? Because it seems like in a way, once you would structure a partnership where they're like, "Oh, you always give me bread makers. That's what I know you for." I would think that they wouldn't think like, "Oh, I should share that I also need this isn't this," because they're so tunnel vision on like, "My partner does this with me." So how do you even go about developing that relationship? Or they will say, "Here's some gaps right now in inventory that we just can't get, can you help us?"Mary:Yeah. I mean, that happened last year. So those conversations were had over the last year and a half. And our sales team works very closely with their retail partners. And so they're having those conversations on an ongoing basis. And it also helps out our retailers and it also instills us as making sure that we're helping them protect their business too, because I'm sure you realize this, if you went around six months ago and you went into some of the retail establishments you would see empty shelves and you would see big places in the home goods' area, where there was not a lot to purchase in person.Mary:And so those are ongoing for us because we also work really close with them planning ahead because encouraging them to make sure that they get their forecasting done months in advance so that we can buy against that forecast and protect their orders so that they have good supplies, especially as we go into the back half of this year, which for us, my team calls it our Super Bowl because that's our peak season basically. And so we want to make sure that all the stars align. And our marketing is pushing the items that we can focus on, but we also make sure that, like I said, inventory is essential for us.Stephanie:Well, if that's so, is there anything, any big bets that you guys have made, or that you're implementing right now, especially around supply chain or something that's just totally different than how you used to do things, and you're not really sure about the outcome, but you think you're ahead of the game? Because I've heard a lot of people come on the show and talk about this as a big issue and there's room for disruption in the whole logistics and supply chain and warehousing and all of that, but I haven't heard many people be like, "We're doing it this way now and it's working." Or, "We're going to explore it this way. And we think there might be opportunity around adjusting these things."Mary:Yeah. I mean, I have those conversations all the time. It's like, "Okay, we need to get our fall marketing plan locked down," because, and you know this, it's not something you turn on in a day. It has to be those big campaigns, tent-pole type things are planned months in advance. And so I was already having those conversations a month ago, basically like, "These are the items I think we should focus on, but I also need to have confidence that we can have product." So we honed in on the items that we're pretty sure that we can generate demand, but also have appropriate supply of goods. And we're also making sure that we are doing some other things which involve our retailers, like aligning our retailers so that they are working in the same playbook we are because it's, I call it compounding interest. That's kind of how I look at it.Mary:I tell our sales team, "Look, if you were smart, you would take advantage of this. This is what we're working on. And we were very transparent about it with our retail partners and our sales team, because the more we're all pushing in the same direction, we are going to be more successful." And we're also doing a lot of other things like digital audits and making sure that our digital shelf, not just for ourselves, but for our retail partners are clean and tidy and neat and organized the right way and they have the right data specs and content and all of the things that they need to make sure that they're successful on their side. So it's not just about the marketing that we're doing, but it's the support that we provide to the sales team and the retail partners that extend basically.Mary:And like I said, I call it compounding because for every one of those partners I can get in line, the more powerful the campaigns are across the board.Stephanie:Yup. I mean, I definitely understand that. It's like, "Why wouldn't you all be kind of rowing towards the same end point? If you guys are having a big campaign push why wouldn't they also invest in the same thing instead of having diverse efforts?" What are some of the biggest gaps that you see on retailer websites when you're saying you want to make sure it's clean and tidy, they have all the right information. What are some big missing pieces that when you go in and you do your digital audits, you're like, "Ah, once again, you're missing this or you're doing it this way. And we know that it's best to do it this way." Because I'm sure you're not the only one who is struggling or finds those kind of things on the retailers websites.Mary:Yeah. So basically our focus has been along naming conventions and search. Those are the two things that we've put a lot of effort into. So on-site search for retailers, every retailer could be using a different partner for search or self-developed search, or however doing it, it's just that, it could be different for every retailer. So that has been a big focus for us. And then the other thing too is making sure that any content that we're developing much more. So in the lifestyle area, that we are making that content available for all of our retailers and sharing out because that's become a big, I don't want to say burden, but it's been, every retailer has different specifications. Like, "I want seven lifestyle images and I want this and I only take this size and only take that size." And just the whole logistics end of it because as retailers are not developing content for every product that they sell on their digital shelf. They're not doing that. They're repurposing content.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, how do you know, first if they're using it, using it in the correct way? And also, do you see them putting their own spin on it? Because there's been a few times when I've seen, maybe I go to Cuisinart and I'm like, "Oh, that was an epic video product placement." I just associate it with you guys potentially. And then maybe I go to, I don't know, HomeGoods and same content. And I go to Macy's, same content. And then you start being like, "Wait, who started this content?" I've seen that happen a few times with brands where they're all reusing the same stuff. Are you encouraging your partners to repurpose it, put your own spin on it, put your own voice on it, use it how you see best fit, or are you just like, "Here's the box that you need to work within?"Mary:Yeah. So how we protect ourselves against that is we develop our own custom content for ourselves. So that's how we set ourselves apart.Stephanie:You're the original. You like [crosstalk]?Mary:Yeah, instead of... I mean, sure, you realize this is duplication of that, it doesn't necessarily help with SEO related things. But retailers have so many products and they're so big. When you think about, what one retailer, or how many SKUs they have online versus an in-store environment, they're heavily reliant on brands to use that content there. They're just not going to develop that themselves. The sheer amount of resources that they need to do that is, it's not going to happen basically. And obviously we've put more emphasis on it ourselves because not only, do they need the content, but we need more content ourselves because we're not just using the content on our website, we're developing it for social, for digital, for every avenue, for work that we do through our PR agency. It's used in every channel.Mary:But like I said, the way that we differentiate in that area is that we are also developing custom content for ourselves. And we do also have retailers that they will change up their hero copy and this and that. I mean, when we do those audits, we also make sure that the information is correct and they don't go off the deep end. Stephanie:Yup. Yup. I can imagine there being a lot of value in what they're seeing on their side around the kinds of content that's working. Maybe they're getting some kinds of content from you in one way, and then different styles from another brand. Is there any data sharing there where they give feedback of like, "Oh, we see this toothbrush brand doing this and it's working really well. Our customers like this." Do they ever share that feedback and then help you rethink the content that you all are headed or going to create?Mary:Yeah, interesting that has never happened, but what we have done ourselves is that we obviously keep our eye on what content performs best and then we produce more of that type of content. So like most brands, user-generated content tends to perform much better. We work with a lot of influencers who obviously built custom content for us. And that's the stuff that performs much better than... I'm not saying our stuff doesn't perform, but in comparison, that material. It's also, somebody, it's brand appropriate, it has the proper brand essence to it, but consumers like to see other people's material and they gravitate towards it. And they're more engaged in it. And so we put more of a focus.Stephanie:Yeah. Are there any big bets that you all are making in marketing campaigns or content that you're like, "This might not pay off or this could be taken the wrong way, but we're going for it?"Mary:I mean, not really in that sense, but in the sense of social shopping, we're putting more of a focus on social shopping and being able to track that. And we also just launched a campaign and we had positive ROI on it. So that's where everything's going. It's like making sure you have a positive ROI that you are testing and learning and being able to quantify. It's the benefit of the digital world. You can actually see the results of your efforts and what they produce.Stephanie:So earlier you mentioned influencers. And that's something on the show that I've heard a lot of mixed reviews around of what's an influencer? Who actually classifies as that? When does it deliver results? And how are you guys going about finding the right influencers and partnering the way that you get a long-term ROI?Mary:Yeah. So we've been working in this area for quite a long time. We don't focus on celebrity influencers. That's not our thing. We are most interested in aesthetic and brand alignment and also the fact that our consumers are very oriented around food and food is a big part of their life and they're very interested in recipe ideas and things like that. So we have a whole, we've developed an entire set of guidelines for influencers and also for any work that we're doing in social media for ourselves and for our licensed partners.Mary:And we have also over time found a few influencers that we've had ongoing partnerships with instead of one-offs. I'm sure a lot of people that you talk to talk about where this is going, where the influencer marketing field is going, because obviously there's a lot more brands using it in comparison to even one or two years ago. It also, when you get into that situation, you can be driving a pricing and a few other things. And those are all obviously concerns for everybody. And then also the fact that you also want to have separation with competitive brands which is a big concern. And we stay on top of all of that.Mary:We're not currently using a platform to vet influencers. We don't do that. We work with our PR agency Magrino, and they are basically doing the research and handpicking appropriate influencers. I mean, they know our guidelines and they know what we're looking for. And we also work with the influencer and also get their stats from them and making sure that they're in line. We also get contacted by a lot of people directly through our social channels, or even just through email wanting to partner with us and we explore all those opportunities, but at the end of the day, it also has to align with our needs and our guidelines and also the needs of our consumer.Stephanie:Yeah. We've heard quite a few brands saying, "Anyone can be an influencer essentially, and it's not the big celebrities of the world anymore. It's anyone who has even a couple of thousand followers, if those followers are engaged and ready to buy." Are you seeing those more, the micro influencers working better than just, like you said, you don't even go for celebrities? So what do you look for when you're trying to find someone who's going to be a good fit for the brand and also deliver good results?Mary:Yeah. I mean, our biggest thing is engagement. That's what we are interested in. We're interested in engagement. We also have a certain level of followers that we're interested in, not in the small thousands per se, but those are all key vetting points for us. And then also we check their handle, make sure that the work that they're doing is aligned with what our consumers want to see also. We don't want to see overly promotional. We want to see some separation. We also want to see, like I said, engagement is a key factor for us too.Stephanie:Yeah. And it seems like that's where the world as a whole is headed around organic content, authentic UGC, not the way that it used to be even just a couple of years ago around, you see a channel, wherever it was and being like, "Oh, obviously their whole goal here is just to sell, sell, sell." I rarely see that working anymore. And if you see people doing that, they quickly start falling down the ranks of, "Why am I even here if you're just selling this one haircare product the entire time, and there's no other content. I don't feel connected with that." So it seems like everything's kind of shifting in that direction.Mary:Yeah, it definitely is. And people want to be inspired. That's why they're on these channels. They want to be inspired, they want to educate themselves a lot of times. People are very visually inspired and they want to... I mean, I even know myself the types of things that I use social media for, it's education too. It's about, I happen to study Italian, so I'm very oriented. I follow a lot of people in Italy and cookbook authors and things like that. And I'm there to learn. I'm there to be inspired by their knowledge and the recipe ideas. And it doesn't matter, it just matters what the consumer's passionate about. And that's what you have to deliver to them. They don't want to be hammered over the head every day with, "Buy my blah, blah." I mean, that's not why they're there. And then, as you said, what happens is over time they tune out.Stephanie:Yup. Are there any, what maybe some would call competitors that you'd be open to being shown up against, because I see that being a world where you're like, "Oh, I really want this influencer. They're really big in the food scene, but they also use a semi-competitor products." Are you all okay with that? Or are you like, "Oh, it has to be semi-exclusive," or, "You can't feature other competitors on your channel as well."Mary:Yeah. We wouldn't do that.Stephanie:You wouldn't do that? That's hard no.Mary:We're too competitive.Stephanie:Yep. Hey, I like it. That's great.Mary:Yeah. I mean, we even go to the point where we, "When you're taking photos, we don't want to see competitive product in the photo." I mean, and I assume people over time also do the same thing. But yeah, we're very competitive. We want to see separation. We don't want to work with somebody who is like, been all over every competitor known to man. And hey, I know for a fact that people probably go on our channel and see who we're working with and use us as a free game for not having to find their own influencers for all I know, and we don't do that. We don't do that at all. I would not encourage that. That's kind of the lazy man's way out. But yeah, we don't do that.Stephanie:That's not a long game [crosstalk].Mary:No, it's a short game. And the thing is, it's like, if you're in this for the long haul, you're going to do it from a strategic perspective and not a tactical perspective. And to me, that's tactical because you're assuming whatever I'm doing is going to work for you. And your brand's, different brand. Your consumers have different needs and wants. That's what you need to focus on.Stephanie:Yeah. And it's putting way too much trust in another team that you don't even know what they're talking about. Why they're doing that. You don't even know what they're partnering with that person.Mary:And the other thing is, you don't even know what the stats are, how it produced, how it performed. I mean, now at the end of the day, you really don't. So we don't do that. It's not even in my mindset to be completely honest with you, but I'm not saying that other people don't take that tactic.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Earlier you were talking about creating these shoppable experiences. And before the show, I mentioned also headless commerce and you're like, "Oh, I mean, is that even a term anymore? We've been doing that forever." I want to hear what you guys are seeing around what some would still say is a trend. And we've had some people be like, "That's not even a thing," or, "It's here to stay." And I'd love to hear your perspective since you guys are the maybe OGs in this. You've already been doing it.Mary:And it was one of those things where we did it for a different reason. Well, it was similar reason, but different. So this is like years ago, our shopping cart aspect of our website is completely separate from the web property and the reason it was done like that was that we were working with a fulfillment company. We've been selling direct-to-consumer for years and years. It's just that we use a fulfillment company. Consumer have this shopping experience on our website, but the orders were sent to a fulfillment organization. They fulfilled them. And we kept the consumer in our ecosystem because I wanted it to be able to own the data.Mary:So this was like more forward-thinking. Now, this is like all the trend. People are like, first-party data, first-party data, but that's how I protected my first-party data years ago. And so in a way, thank God I did it because when we wanted to bring the D2C business back in-house in late 2018, I didn't have to restructure my entire website. I basically just had to plug in a shopping cart basically at that point. And then last year in the middle of the year, we transitioned our entire web property to Episerver, it's a DXP, and still kept the shopping cart separate. And what we ended up doing, it was you made as much of the site [CMSable] as possible so that the marketing team can virtually do any day-to-day operation that we need to change a price, add a new product, build a landing page. We just finished building out blocks so that we can build custom landing pages. We can literally do anything ourselves.Mary:And so the idea was we wanted to be a masters of our own domain basically, because in our previous situation we used one web development company and they did everything for us. And unfortunately, over time as the brand became more mature, it didn't make sense for us anymore because we really needed experts. We needed experts in SEM, SEO. We needed experts in web development, in the latest best platform to use. And we also wanted to be more in control of our business. So we didn't have to open a ticket with IT. And the SDP emails me, is like, "Hey, I think we changed the price on blah, blah, blah, can you fix it on the website?" I'm like, "On the fly." Kids do it in 10 seconds, and not even... So this way we're in control of our destiny, basically. We're not heavily reliant on any one thing or any one agency. And this way also, if we decide to change agencies, we're not stuck.Mary:And that's one of the things that is really important for us and for our business. And not having to get in line at the deli stand. No seriously, I say I'm a point A to point B person. I don't want to have to go through five people to do something. I want to be able to control my destiny and the destiny of the company and the brand. And that's how I look at it. And that's how, it's more work for us because now instead of dealing with one agency, we're dealing with multiple agencies, but that's what's best for the company. And that's what's best for the brand because when you get to a certain level, you need to be reliant on experts in the field.Mary:And this is where vertical integration is not necessarily the best thing for your business. And so it depends. I know some people are all up for vertical integration, but what happens over time is when you're not continually developing those people and making sure they stay best in class and they only have one client, you get denigration over time, basically, in my opinion.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, there's no incentives to keep doing better and better if you're getting paid the same amount to, essentially, if you can make it less work. And I mean, and they're not going out to the market and shopping it and doing our piece. They're like, "This is what we got right here. I'm doing a flat line thing for anyone." Obviously it's like, "Would have stepped in with our hand." But I mean, I also think about it's the company, the age of the company and where they're at in that life cycle. And it seems like it always starts with, you've got the founders and then it's very dispersed and you're hiring all these agencies and, "I need social, I need this, I need that." And it's all over the place. And then you start to bundle it back up again and bring things in-house.Stephanie:At what point do you think that companies should start considering pulling things back in-house, controlling their own destiny a bit more and not relying on just one or two agencies to control what's happening and where they have to wait in line at the deli stand, as you'd say?Mary:Yeah. I mean, I think it depends on your business because for where we are and where the brand is now, it's more important for us to be working with what I call best in class. And the thing is, unless your organization is continually investing in talent and adding head count and all those things that companies are not necessarily looking to do. The sheer amount of people you need to keep that train running is probably unreasonable. And so for me, I can't even imagine us bundling this all back and bringing it in-house. I just think our needs are greater than that at this point. But I'm not saying it'll never happen. Things change every day, but at the end of the day in my experience, when you have some of these in-house organizations, it slows down your business. It's slow. It's like, "Okay, here's a common service area. There's nine divisions. And we all have to use the same point, the entry and get in line."Mary:And it's like, things never happened. It's like the slow boat. It's not easy. And the other thing too, is what ends up happening sometimes with organizations is, "Let's have so-and-so do it." And they have no expertise, they have no experience, they have no knowledge. And so that person's not really the right one to be there, but they're handed the thing and it's not necessarily the best outcome. So for me right now, I'm not intending on rebundling and bringing anything back. And first of all, the sheer lift on that would be insane. And you're also talking-Stephanie:And you also let the team go and hire too, which I love. I mean, the team be on a find a cool vendor and find a cool agency to work with it, and maybe executives would have never had time to even stumble on. I mean, that's how we even got our start with Salesforce, was one team within Salesforce betting on us and being like, "Let's try this company. It's small, but they want to make a podcast. Let's go for it and partner with them." And just getting that one opportunity to then spread within the company and do a good job and prove yourself. I think that's how a lot of innovation can happen by just letting the teams go and source those cool opportunities or companies to partner with.Mary:And the other thing too, is you have to remember when you're working with agency partners, they have other clients that you learn from. They are bringing you ideas that they've seen possibly be successful with other clients in completely different industries. And so there's a lot of built-in advantage there. There's built in knowledge, there's built in advantage. I also think that they understand our business. We're teaching them over time, our business. And so they're invested in it. They're invested in making sure that we're successful and we're doing the same. I think sometimes when you vertically integrate, the motivations may be different. And there's maybe not necessarily that hunger over time. And so depending on what that situation is like internally depends on how successful that is.Stephanie:Yep. I totally agree. Love it. All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Mary?Mary:I'm ready.Stephanie:Awesome. All right. So pull out your crystal ball, what one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?Mary:I think social selling.Stephanie:Yeah? Tell a bit more. What are you thinking?Mary:Well, because it's a new channel. It's getting to the point where we have ways to prove it out. I believe that it's definitely a new area. When I look at statistics in social selling, it's like the last year, I think it's like 57% of the consumers bought something off social office, social channel. I mean, that's a big opportunity as far as I'm concerned.Stephanie:Yeah. That's where I source a lot of everything, by Instagram, TikTok, I'm like, "Oh, cute shirt, cute outfit. That makeup set, you said, that's good? Okay. I trust you." Yeah. I definitely agree on that. What is your favorite Cuisinart product outside of the air fryer? And me, I was like, "I know she's going to say that again."Mary:That is by far my favorite product, but I have several. So we have a product called the griddler which we've had in the line for a really long time. We have a couple of new versions of it. And so that's, now I'm going to go into the pitch, but-Stephanie:Do it. Do [crosstalk].Mary:It's an indoor grill. It has, basically, can take you from breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It has reversible plates. You can make a panini. And the great thing about it as the plates go right in the dishwasher. So you make a meal in minutes and there's little cleanup. So that's another one of my favorite products. And I couldn't start my day without my Cuisinart single-serve coffee maker. We have multiple coffee makers in this house, but don't judge me, I happen to work for a company that makes a lot of great ones, but we use the single-serve one when we're in hurry, but we also use a grind and brew when we want to linger over a pot. So definitely coffee would be, can't start my day without it.Stephanie:Wow. So many products you need to invest in. I don't even know where to start. Great. What is one brand that you watch that helps you stay creative or innovative, or you keep an eye on what they're doing? And it does not have to be in the cookware industry of course, it can be very different.Mary:Keep my eye on a lot of companies. So it's hard to distill down. And I would say, a lot of them are not in, I mean, not that I don't keep track of my competitors, believe me, I do, but they're several. I would say Peloton is one of them just because of, I mean, they've been in the news a lot lately, but that's not my reasons. The community aspect of it, I think that's what the product is really about. It's not really about the physical products. So I think that's really cool. Obviously, Apple, who doesn't keep their eye on Apple. I would also Amazon because they're into everything. There's every day I open the news and I'm like, "What don't they do basically."Mary:So let's say that's a few of them. Then I also keep my eye on a lot of startups, small startups, especially in the food industry right now. I really love what's going on in plant-based food and there're so many food startups out there. I really am very intrigued by the work that they're doing.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. We just did a whole episode too on why your best ideas can come from looking outside your industry and how that's a lot of innovations happen, especially when you have a similar problem that maybe has already been solved. If you're thinking like, "Oh, I have something around employees in this and how to set it up. And I'm in the food industry. Let me go look at the, I don't know, space industry and see how they think about this or even military or something. How do they do team structures?" And yeah, it was very interesting to think about how other industries can influence creativity and solving problems.Mary:Yeah. The other thing too, what I think about is, there's so much work going on in the plant-based food business. There's so many competitors. The same thing with meal kits. At some point consolidation has to happen. But the other reason I keep my eye on that is, we have to be as people who make appliances, we have to be helping our consumers understand how to actually prepare those foods when they get at home and they're using our equipment and all those types of things. I mean, if you just look at conventional meats versus grass-fed versus organic, they all cook differently. So there's some work that has to be done there to educating the consumer.Mary:So that's another reason why I keep my eye on the food industry. And just food in general, it's changing so fast. And also people have much more, such interest in ethnic foods and discovering new foods. And there's an entire process of what happens to consumers when they travel somewhere and taste something new and try to recreate it at home. So I keep my eye on all those types of things.Stephanie:Yep. That just made me think about something that needs reinvention that maybe you guys can tap into, the microwave. Why does it still have presets that just say potato, popcorn. I'm like, "I don't use any of those. And this is 2021. People make many different things, not just baked potatoes and meat or whatever it has on there." So if you also helps with that.Mary:It's funny because, I'll tell you something about myself. So we have multiple air fryers, there's digital ones, which have a zillion options. I have the, this is going to make me sound analog instead of digital completely, but I actually like the dials because I like to decide myself how it should be cooked. But yeah, so I agree with you though, like, "How many cups of coffee do we need to reheat before we know that's what it is?"Stephanie:Yup. Yup. Man.Mary:Baked potato popcorn.Stephanie:Yep. [crosstalk].Mary:But they're also the most used functions, which is, kind of drives why they're there.Stephanie:Wow. Yeah. Okay. Maybe I'm just not their typical user.Mary:Maybe you're not making enough baked potatoes.Stephanie:I know. I guess, I need to get on that. What am I doing with my life? All right. And the last question, what one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Mary:Oh, Bitcoin, please.Stephanie:Yeah. I've had so many people say that on the show.Mary:Cryptocurrency, I don't get it in. And after watching Elon Musk on Saturday Night Live, I still don't know anything.Stephanie:Man, I think this is just going to push me to start a crypto podcast because so many e-commerce guests have said that and trying figure it out and how it's going to impact their work or their point of sale systems or payments or any of that, or even supply chain, which I think it's going to have a huge impact on.Mary:Yeah. It's interesting. Because I think I'm smarter than the average doc and I just cannot follow that at all. It's not that I haven't tried, but I definitely need an education there and I'd appreciate if you help me with that.Stephanie:All right. I will find a sponsor. Anyone come on in and sponsor the show, I'll get it going and Mary is going to be my first guest to ask all the questions.Mary:I'm there.Stephanie:Well, all right, Mary. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure chatting. Where can people find out more about you and Cuisinart?Mary:So you can find out more about Cuisinart at cuisinart.com. So follow us on all the social channels under Cuisinart, except for on TikTok, it's cuisinart_official, which we're just starting that right now. So we're testing the waters as they say.Stephanie:It's going to be air frying all the things on there I bet. That'll do.Mary:Exactly.Stephanie:That'll be hot on that channel.Mary:Just started. So we're just getting our feet wet. And then you can follow me on LinkedIn, it's Mary Rodgers. Easy to find.Stephanie:Perfect. Thank you so much.Mary:Thank you. It's great being with you today. It was a lot of fun.Stephanie:Same, and I agree.

I had the pleasure of interviewing Mary Pagano, a longtime technology industry executive. In her two-decade career in the industry, Mary broke gender barriers to rise to be an executive in a heavily male-dominated field.Mary left the technology industry, not due to a lack of success, but because she wanted to achieve greater fulfillment. Today, she is a board advisor and angel investor to several female-founded companies;   HERA, a building project for a smart green city for the future of humanity in honor of women, and FEM FOUNDRY, a new safe & secure social mobile platform for women around the world to unite on all subjects with a focus on female empowerment.In this episode, we talk about Mary's career, the challenges of being a woman in a male-dominated field, the need for female leaders, and her newest project HERA. Mary's life experiences and passion make her inspiring for both men and women. Chapter markers:03:36 Mary Pagano answers how she accomplished what she accomplished05:06 Mary's early career 06:05 The challenges of being a woman in a male-dominated industry08:19 How did Mary respect her boundaries in the corporate world?10:40 The power of saying no11:38 I don't need a man in my life14:27 People want other people to be like them16:17 Mary's career transition from tech to investing19:25 We need more female leaders21:06 The development of Hera City - A city celebrating women26:57 What Susan's project Steel Rose is all about27:35 How being trained in sales influences your worldview32:47 Mary's closing thoughtsNotable quotes:“If I had a family and kids [my career] would have all been dead; there wouldn't have been anyone to take care of them” -Mary“When women mentor other women, and they help and support them, it's actually a gift to themselves because you learn from the giving” -Mary“I never got fired for saying no” -Mary“It always comes back to haunt us when we don't have integrity” -Susan“I've always been looking for adventure; I've always been that way” -Mary“You don't need to be married if you don't want to be” -Susan“It's human nature that whatever works for you or me, we want to try to make everyone else like that, but there's no point in it” -Mary“Culture can kill a company overnight” -Mary“Women need to support each other to move forward” -Mary“Women can't say no without guilt” -Susan“Sales is problem-solving” -Mary“When you're not heard [in a conversation] you cut off” -Mary“The cardinal rule in sales is know your audience” -Susan“If you give service [for others] the universe will open up for you” -MaryConnect with Mary PaganoHERA:  https://www.heracity.orgFEM FOUNDRY:  https://www.fem-foundry.comLinkedin:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/marypagano    HOST:  Susan Hum, The LoveHackerInstagram @thelovehacker Website:  www.steelrosemovement.comFacebook:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/steelrosemovement

Get ready to Sparkle and Shine and live life in full color, Queens!!!  This week, we welcome style blogger and personal stylist Mary Higham, creator of “Glam in Gotham.” Mary's personal aim is to fill each day with whimsy and color, and she unapologetically believes that fashion should make people happy. Well, duh! As Mary says: “Every piece of my clothing makes a statement towards a little piece of my personality - I wear my heart on my sleeve (sometimes literally)!” Mary's blog and Instagram page are saturated in her trademark fluff and sequins – as well as her beloved headbands – where she shares her perspective on her new life in NYC, tips and tricks for vintage finds, and loves to promote her favorite fashion accessories and styles. Nolan brings us the goods this week and introduces us to Mary as only Nolan can: recounting a story about the first time he hung out with Mary at a Halloween party, where he got super trashed and had a great time… well, you can imagine. But back to Mary: we discuss her first career as an event consultant specializing in meetings, conferences and trade shows. She then started blogging, moved to NYC – LITERALLY moving into a new apartment the day before the pandemic shut down the City - and decided to focus on her love of fashion when the world's planning and live events actually died in 2020. We L.O.L about personal shopping gigs, sample sales, thrifting, blogging, curating your own personal style, our love for NYC, and even why there is a lot of online discussion about the state of her husband's pant-wearing status on most days. Some things just have to be seen or heard, so take a listen.  Seriously though, Mary shares how she supports up-and-coming brands by promoting and elevating the designers and products she loves. She then combines her professional experience as an event planner to connect brands and consumers. We are so inspired by Mary's business insights and career path: “You can't fit a career in a box. Nobody's life fits into a perfect box. It is not always in a straight line. There is no clear path. Carve out what you love.” Join us for a wonderful adventure full of rainbows and unicorns, career journeys and the love of fashion! And of course, we include all the usual swear words and things that totally annoy us along the way.  In This Episode: [2:11] NOLAN: It's been such a long year. So I mean, you wear so many hats. So, you're an event consultant. You're a stylist. You're a personal shopper. A color and style enthusiast, because it brings you joy. You're like also like me, you're a sample sale queen.  [3:01] HOLLY: Mary, I just want to say I'm looking at you right now. I've only seen your picture. You're completely Gorg! Love your headband. She's got on this beaded headband and, I mean, super colorful rainbow dress. You look amazing! [5:07] MARY:  So, I'm actually adopted and I grew up on the Jersey Shore as an Asian kid with white parents - grew up on the Irish Catholic Riviera of America on the Jersey Shore. [8:04] MARY: It's not easy to follow your passion. I attended panels where brand designers and CEOs are sitting there, talking about how, you know, “One day I just decided I wanted to create my own line. So I cold called a lot of people and now look at how successful I am.” And I'm like, “That's not true. You started your career as an intern, you started as a stylist assistant.” [11:28] MARY: I used to travel all over the world. So, I could be in any city or any country, like who even knows. But the most popular thing I ever asked about on my Instagram Stories was: do you want to know if my husband is wearing pants or not? [17:43] HOLLY: And what is your shtick? Are you “fashion at your age”? Are you “fashion for a certain size?” Tell me what your shtick is… you believe in color, or what is your unique perspective about why your outfits are important. [23:27] MARY: You know, look, if we really want to break it down in a nutshell, what I believe I can do to help other women is: I think it's really important to embrace yourself. I'm not going to tell every woman that she needs to be wearing color. You know what, if you like black, and it is an entirely black ensemble, if you feel that's you, and that's what makes you happy? Then you do that. [28:15] MARY:  There was almost an entire month where Nate was like “Come on, just walk the dogs with me” I was like, okay, so I go out, and of course, I put on sequins and a big-ass bow on my head, and I was like, we're gonna walk the dogs! So we go downstairs and my doorman was like “Holy Shit, Mary! Oh my god, you're alive. We had a pool going, we really thought your husband had murdered you know, you for weeks.” [52:02] MARY:  I think I would say it's a fashion crime to just follow trends and to wear it because like, oh, pink is the new, you know, what is it? Orange is the new pink? It's the new red?  [61:00] NOLAN: I proceeded to get blackout. Oh, and then we had Korean barbecue afterwards. It was so good.  Key Takeaways: Nolan has fabulous fashion friends who make amazing podcast guests Mary Higham followed her head and her heart to combine careers without following the rules, or the norms, or what everyone says is the correct path to success. Pandemic got you down? Pivot to expand your career opportunities and you just might find a way to do more than your day job. But you still gotta pay the bills. There are highs and lows and depression, and then there are people who are fake about what it means to be successful.  You be you. Your personal style, your path to happiness, your success and failures – no one can tell you how to be you, or how to be happy. People want people. We want live fashion shows again. We want to touch and feel and taste fabric. We want to see the good, the bad and the beautiful at live fashion shows. Some things just cannot be digital.  Find people, brands, products and ideas that you love. Follow them, lift them up, promote them, be a part of their community. Collaboration is the new black.  Websites and Links:   Glam in Gotham website:  https://www.glamingotham.com/ Glam in Gotham Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/glam.in.gotham/   Lele Sadoughi Headbands: https://www.lelesadoughi.com/ Loren Hope Jewelry: https://www.lorenhope.com Stony Clover Lane: https://www.stoneycloverlane.com Quotes: “I like to think that fashion should make people happy. And the fashion is uniquely personal to you. I am never gonna tell someone what they have to wear.” – Mary Higham “It's shot girl summer: vaxxed, waxed and ready to relax." – Mary Higham “So, I'm actually adopted and I grew up on the Jersey Shore, an Asian kid with white parents who grew up on the Irish Catholic Riviera of America on the Jersey Shore.” – Mary Higham “Listen, no one is upset that you're Asian, Jewish AND Italian. Okay? Because you grew up on the Jersey Shore. It's all good that you're Jewish, that you're more Jewish than most people.” – Holly Katz “And I'm never gonna not love headbands. I've loved headband since I was like six years old. So I don't care. I could be 18, I could be 45, still gonna be wearing a sparkly headband.” – Mary Higham “You don't need a million followers to have any degree of influence.” – Mary Higham

A Reading of the holy gospel according to Mk 6:1-6He went away from there and came to his own country; and his disciples followed him. 2 And on the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue; and many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get all this? What is the wisdom given to him? What mighty works are wrought by his hands! 3  Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense  at him. 4 And Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house." 5 And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands upon a few sick people and healed them. 6 And he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went about among the villages teaching.Reading: Mk 6:1-6He went away from there and came to his own country; and his disciples followed him. 2 And on the sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue; and many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get all this? What is the wisdom given to him? What mighty works are wrought by his hands! 3  Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense  at him. 4 And Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house." 5 And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands upon a few sick people and healed them. 6 And he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went about among the villages teaching.Commentary:Returning to Nazareth, Christ was again rejected. The townsmen knew him as an ordinary resident, a carpenter by trade, and were not ready to accept him as a teacher or rabbi. Until beginning his public ministry at the age of thirty, Christ lived an obscure and unremarkable life, which Scripture summarizes in the briefest of terms (cf. Lk 2:52). We can surmise that Christ worked hard at his trade in Nazareth during these "hidden years" of his life—an endorsement of the value of seeking holiness through our work and the events of everyday life. (CCC 531-534)Reading: Mk 6:33 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.Commentary:Is not this the carpenter?: This is the only reference in the Gospel to Christ's profession. It serves to reinforce that he led an ordinary life in Nazareth. Son of Mary: It is not clear whether Joseph had already died. Brother: This refers to any number of male relatives (cf. Mt 12:46-50; Mk 3:31-35); James and Joseph are identified elsewhere as sons of another woman named Mary (cf. Mt 13:55; 28:1). (CCC 500)Reading: Mk 6:5-65 And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands upon a few sick people and healed them. 6 And he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went about among the villages teaching.Commentary:Effective prayer requires faith and trust in God. Christ often chided his Apostles for their lack of faith. Laid his hands: Christ frequently healed people by the touch of his hand. The laying on of hands signifies the work of the Holy Spirit, and it remains a powerful sign used in the Sacraments today. (CCC 699, 2610)Works CitedIgnatius Press. The Didache Bible : With Commentaries Based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. 2014. Edited by Rev. James Socias, 2nd ed., Downers Grove, Il, Midwest Theological Forum, Inc. ; San Francisco, Ca, 5 Jan. 2015, pp. 4, 916–4, 917.---. The Didache Bible : With Commentaries Based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. 2014. Edited by Rev. James Socias, 2nd ed., Downers Grove, Il, Midwest Theological Forum, Inc. ; San Francisco, Ca, 5 Jan. 2015, pp. 4, 917.Official Website: https://www.facebook.com/WeAreTrulyRich

Welcome to the Recruitment Hackers podcast, a show about innovation, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry brought to you by Talkpush the leading recruitment automation platform.Max: Hello, and welcome back to  the recruitment hackers podcast. I'm your host Max. And today I'm honored and pleased to welcome on the show Miss Mary Meston from Concentrix. Mary, welcome to the show. Mary: Thank you, Max. Thanks for inviting me. I'm happy to be here. Max: Great to have you. So Mary is the VP for talent management at Concentrix. Concentrix is currently part of the Synnex group, but they're separating at the moment. I hope I'm not divulging any confidential information. Mary: No, you're not. It is public knowledge and we've reported out, and the board recently approved that. So we're still projecting we're about a month out from spinning out and being on our own and being our own entity. And we are gonna miss Synnex. We're still very, very close, but we're all very excited. Max: And you were together for a couple of years only?Mary: No, Synnex actually, if you look at where Concentrix came from, it's been out for 16 years. It was a small little group. Concentrix has grown by acquisition. Substantially. And now we are substantially a large player in the industry, quite a large player, and absolutely would like to be on our own. And it just makes business sense. You know?Max: Well, It is indeed a huge company. I am today working with some of your entities, but I understand Concentrix globally is, well, over 200,000 headcount, maybe 300,000, maybe more. Mary: We're North of 250,000 right now. And with you helping us there in, certain divisions could be 260 for all I know right now. Max: Yeah. It changes every day. And then certainly around this time of year there is always a big ramp up before the Christmas holiday, lots of hiring going on. But you're not in those trenches anymore Mary, I think that our audience will get something a little bit different today. Mary is working more on the executive development and talent management at the executive level at the moment. Well, tell us a little bit more about your role in Concentrix. Mary: I'd love to thank you. Yes. I've been in the recruitment trenches. It was called recruitment then, and now it's talent acquisition. So that ages me quite a bit. Max: You were saying head hunting before. Mary: I know head hunting. I think about that now it's like, so politically not correct. Right?Max:  It used to be fun. We used to take our rifles and go out and hunt for heads. Mary: That's a really aggressive talent acquisition strategy, right? Yeah, I progressed through all of the focuses in HR. I mean, I started as a benefits clerk, a payroll clerk, actually moved into recruiting and helped establish a number of firms many moons ago. Some of the first, software development firms and actually H1B hiring and really focusing on that. I worked in California, and progressed through all the phases and all the functions in HR and I really love the fact that I've been able to bring all that together and really we're focused now with our executive set. Really working on optimizing our talent because as we all know how difficult it is to find that right person, let's talk about time, process, costs, all of that. Once you have them, you don't want to lose them. Right? And it's really important to continue to develop them. Not only helps employee engagement, but that helps move a company forward. Right? If you can grow all those quote unquote human assets, it helps the company move forward. And that's one of the levers in our innovation. Is grow your talent!Max: It can be so heartbreaking as a business owner when you lose a top talent. And I'm sure it's heartbreaking even if you're not the business owner, the heads-up, you've got somebody who you've invested so much time that leaves, you know, I'm now in my forties, but 20 years ago, I remember thinking my allegiance is to my career and I need to keep moving. Every two, three years, go get another job, expose myself to something new and keep growing. And I think studies have been made that that's one way to optimize for salary growth, especially at the early stages of your career. But now I have a bit of a different perspective where I think, you know, life is too short to be sending out resumes every two years. What do you think about sort of job mobility for people as they get to maybe the middle of their career or their golden years? Mary: Hopefully the middle isn't the golden years now, because come on the new 40 is 60, so let's move the scale up. Yeah, I think about it very much. You have spoken about the time in one's career and what the best strategy is, and it is very true. I did this one in my younger days, to jump every two to three years. Some of it, I lived in the Silicon Valley and worked in the Silicon Valley during the  dot com days. And if your company wasn't purchased or purchasing someone every two years, you know, that provided that career growth, that career jump. And that was really a strategy. I too am a believer. Mid-career when you kind of top out and we have a really solid set of expertise, then it's great to find a place where you can grow and grow with the company and grow that expertise with the company. And not necessarily just look for the next, you know, 5% increase. There's much more of a different strategy. And then when I talk with people early in their careers, they're in a learning stage. So you're learning, growing, get what I can, let's move on. If I'm not getting the growth, I'm going to jump! Then there is the kind of mid career people. I call it the listening stage. As where you start listening to yourself, as well as listening to those you work with. So it's the listening leader approach. It's key to being a really successful leader. Being able to hear others be collaborative and to be very self-aware. And then there's the capstone of your career. I call it the legacy and that's what I work with really senior executives, not necessarily just in age, but in career. Where they're like, I want to leave something behind. What does that look like? And in working with senior executives that are at that stage, and it's not necessarily an age issue, but it is more about what they feel they've accomplished. That's where it's really a great time to work with senior executives to that's where they're, I want to leave an innovation. I want to change something up. I want to make a difference, you know, and that's, it's a great place to, at least for me to spend with these senior leaders, because there's, that's where some of the most influential, even simple decisions are made. Max: That legacy translates. I often imagine an ideology, like a vision that they want to materialize.Mary: Absolutely. You're in a longer time to learn your skill set and you've performed and you know what you do. What do I want to leave that's beyond me? Being an ideology, an impact, and innovation. I know particularly, In the space we're working with now and with the BPO industry. I mean, because we are such large groups, what we do impact so many more, it's kind of that ripple effect. So it's very important to be very aware of the choices. And we have a number of senior leaders that are very into that legacy space about, you know, we are a community, as we treat our employees, they impact the world.So it's a very significant place to play. And you're very conscious of your choices, particularly, here in the States, you know, with the diversity, equity and inclusion, or I guess globally as well. And the unrest that's been going on, there's a huge, renewed focus on the importance of the inclusions of all. And it's a matter of community. And that's a very interesting space to be particularly with our leadership that is very focused on that. Max: Yeah. I've heard that. I had somebody on the show recently that was telling me about PepsiCo and how do you connect the people at PepsiCo with a sense of mission and purpose? And I made one of my nasty comments about, you know, how do you get excited about selling sugary drinks? And I was, I was told that for them, the mission was more about the people, about the people at PepsiCo and growing the business and that, you know, it has nothing to do with the amount of sugar inside of the drinks, that it gets them excited.And so you've got to find that environment where you're going to carry that ideology or ideology maybe is a two way radio term, or just a set of principles and beliefs that you can put into the world. And I imagine that sometimes you've got people who will get promoted because they're super performers. And maybe they're not at that stage yet. Right? They don't, they're not thinking legacy. They're just thinking about performance and you know, where am I going to get my next raise? Perhaps you, can you suss them out immediately? Mary: Well, you can find them. I mean, in some of that it's, where they're at in their career? What they're seeking?  I find that in people when they're just trying to get into the listening stage. I call it the learning stage when you're learning your function and you're becoming known and branded. It's the me stage, and the listening stage shifts to the we stage. And that's often, typically middle management-ish, depending on the job titles, but that's where you have to become responsible for the we, not the me. And some make that shift better than others. Some never tear the peer principle of topping out. When someone just can't get that next rung on the ladder. And what do you want to be? There's the me and we, there's something in there. Max: Yeah. It's sad when I hear you. I hear you talking about children development stages, almost. Mary: Well, you know, we are all children at heart aren't we, it's just our bodies don't look at as we age. And, you know, development is in stages. It's developmental stages, right? And we can talk about people we know, or public figures that get trapped in adolescence. Let's talk about political climate, right? Max: I watch a lot of comedy online. So I love watching those people who never grow up. And, I think they're very entertaining. So I think, yeah, it's precious to preserve that child inside. But, I'm here wearing a suit and a jacket and trying to look the part for my job. Mary: You're doing a good job.Max: Thank you, Mary. I know I need a haircut, but don't tell me about dressing for success. Is that some part of your job in talent management or is that something that people come to with questions?Mary: Well, that's a really softer side of the corporate world, but we did have a chat about how important it is and how different and how much it's changing now with this world of work at home, or the zoom land, or COVID land, or Corona land, or whatever we want to call it. The next normal, you know, the having to dress to look the part is less and less important.And I've seen it. I've been around for several decades now where you look the part to be assumed you could do it. And now I really work with folks about being who you are, be authentic. I mean, within the appropriate, you know, aspects and parameters, but just dressing the part rarely at senior, mid- senior and senior levels that doesn't.Max:  It doesn't matter anymore! Mary: It doesn't. Think of some of the names out there and, you know, Steve Jobs was known for his look. We've got the Elon Musk look, I mean, think of these people and they're not necessarily the suit and ties, are they? Max: Well, I mean, they have a brand and we can talk about the authenticity and the brands. The way Steve Jobs dressed was part of his brand. It was, you know, I'm so passionate about finding the right design that I'm not going to take off my turtleneck. I don't know what message that actually sends. It's like, it doesn't matter how I dress as long as I've built nice pones, I guess. Mary: Well, I understood while reading some of his stuff that he wanted to reduce the cognitive load about having to think about what he's going to wear. So he can put all that energy into the design. Max: That sounds like such bullshit. Really the cognitive load of how much... I mean, if you're a guy put on a shirt and a suit you're done! Mary: Maybe I'm speaking from a female perspective or more of you, my generation, where you had to worry about if everything matched, right? And you can't have the same top within two, every two weeks.Max: My wife at home, you know, before she goes to the office, she asks me, even though I have no clue, what's  to tell her. But you know, I figured it's better to have an opinion than no opinion. So I do, I do comments. Mary: And you're still standing. So you didn't say you have a good opinion. Max: You're saying it looks wonderful every time, then it doesn't sound correct. You have to mix in a little bit of criticism. I'm sure in your practice as well, the most exemplary leaders also expect you to push back a little bit and criticize.Mary: Absolutely. I mean, when I engage with executives, one of our initial conversations it's about, you know, we set the parameters of our relationship. And as I'm not your best friend, I'm not your yes man or woman. I am here to help you achieve what you want to achieve. And I'll be your sounding board. I'll be your mirror. I'll be your coach. And some days I might actually be the person that's pushing you. So I expect some resistance or it's not working. And just to prep them ahead. And, you know, you can tell those that really engage and want to, and those that are just kind of glad-handing, and just going along for the long cause they don't want to step in something. Max: I mean, and there's, I suppose, an awkwardness with the fact that you are an employee of Concentrix and therefore, you know, it's not like you're a psychologist, right? There's no obligation to keep everything secret from you.Mary: Interesting. You bring up a really important point in the role that I'm doing. And there have been some discussions about, you know, keep someone external to the firm or bring them in. And it can go either way. In particular, I'm very fortunate. I get to report directly to the CEO and our parameters are that I share nothing that is of confidence. If someone needs to share something with you or you with them, I will coach the two of you to speak. So we have some really clear boundaries, which is essential for this to work. Max: Yeah, absolutely. But nobody's going to come and tell you, I want to kill the CEO. Mary: Well, I would hope not because, one, that's illegal! It's really scary. That's a reportable event. My HR is going to come all out. Max: No, I mean, you're dealing with people who are a little bit more mature, than to express things this way. I'm sure they'd find a better way to. But some advice from our listeners, some of which are not, at the executive level, you know, who want to bring the vision of who they want to become to live. At which point in your career is a good suit to bring in a coach? Let's say, you know, you're starting out. You're a talent acquisition professional, and you want to, I don't know, end up VP of HR, should you get a coach? What kind of coach? Where do you start? Mary: That is a really timely question. Thank you. Because recently there's a gentleman within our larger company. He is starting on the path, he's in talent acquisition, and his goal is to be VP of HR. One of our values is to be bold. And he just reached out to me. He says, you don't know me, but I would love to have a mentor. I would want to be you someday. Will you talk to me? Max: Nice. Mary: So when do you start? Whenever you have that question, when something's telling you to do it, you need to answer that whatever the answer is. And many people go, well, I don't need a coach, or what is a coach? Coaching is different from therapy, you know, I'm not licensed to do that. And in therapies dealing generally with the past, I like to frame coaching as dealing in the present and moving you to the right action, whatever that is, depending on what path you choose. And so when to get a coach? Whenever you feel that in the key things you are feeling stuck. I feel there's more, I know I'm not doing something quite right. Something's unsettled. And fourth is, and hopefully it doesn't happen to you, but if some, you get feedback that certain XYZ performance manners behavior isn't working for you, I mean  that's kind of a key when you can reach out to them.Max: Okay, sweet. I had a different idea because you're describing someone who is ambitious, but has problems they want to solve and they want to address. I thought that you have to be, you know, a super positive, optimistic person. Everything is going right. And then you've got all this space and now like, you know what, I want to go even higher and I'm going to go hire a coach because my life is in order, but I want to reach one more.Mary: You know, it can be both of those. It's and again, it's about goal-driven. So if people look at my credentials, I'm certified to do some curriculums called high-performance coaching. And in that space, if that's how we frame that engagement, it is about just having more consistency, higher performance at a consistent level.Yeah, my life's awesome, but I want it to be better. Most often, even those that think they have everything dialed in. There's something amiss. I mean, life is real. We're real people. Not every day is perfect. Not every conversation's perfect. Not every choice is perfect. So how do you manage that? So you can do coaching at that stage too.Max: Certainly. Mary: Coaching is not necessarily remediation. Max: Talent acquisition is one area where it's impossible to reach perfection. You're talking about, yeah, areas for improvement and it is  impossible to have a perfect track record of work movements. I think I can say that without… I mean if somebody can prove me wrong, I'd love to meet them.You know, I've never made a bad hire. I've never heard anybody say that. Although that would be, you know, if that person exists, I would love to interview them for the show.Mary: Yes. I would like to meet them as well. Either way, we're saying in talent acquisition, there's no perfection. And I was going to ask you, what do you scope is perfection? And you're saying a bad hire. So we could talk about what's a bad hire. There's different ways of saying that, you know, they didn't work out. They didn't fit in. They didn't succeed. They didn't bring in the numbers, whatever that is. But, I don't think there is perfection in anything. Other than a hole in one in golf. Is that perfect? Max: Yeah. And you know, even if you do make a good hire, you're going to always find there is probably a better hire out there. I mean, it's hard to measure those things, but I think, retention is a good metric and the beacon side to the performance of the hire. Of course, that's great as well. When you're doing more high volume, the cost per hire is a good metric. But having, you know, with your long experience in TA and and HR, I'm sure you've been exposed to regrets and regretful hires. I'd like to ask you if there's a hire that comes back to mind, and of course I don't want the name, job title or even a company name, but if she could go back to that moment where you hired this person and didn't work out. What can our audience learn from your mistake?Mary: Okay. One definitely comes to mind for me and I will work my best to cloak the identity. If you notice me already kind of shifting here, but I'm going to kind of share the blame in a weird way. So, VP of HR in a startup, we were hiring a key sales person and through my process, I was like, this is a no go. And it wasn't what they could do. It was going to be about their fit, much more cultural fit. Right? And I was a solid no, senior team members were a solid yes, because they were looking at what he could do and has done for others. And I'm like, this is going to destroy the firm. Anyway, he was brought on and our numbers popped for a short while. And then, unfortunately he kind of crossed some boundaries with people, as well as markets. And he left the firm in a worse state than when he started with us. Yeah. So it was a long, hard lesson in one trusting your gut to look at not just what they can do but also fit. And taking a longer view of what is success and what your mission is. Max: I have a lot of names that come to mind where I know the same description and speech would have been easily applicable to this situation. Do not hire based on resume, do not hire based on track record because somebody who's done it before somewhere else does not mean they're going to be able to replicate it or that they even want to do it in the new place, you know, maybe they're a different person.They're not interested in doing the same type of work. And, it's just not going to relate. So a track record is not enough. You have to have something else. Mary: Yeah, that that is very insightfully put because it's very true. I mean, while we do need some, I know you can do this or you have the history of this, it's really about, you have to meet that person in the here and now. And it's pretty safe to say that in very rare cases, one's performance really fits in with all else that's going on in the context of the company. Right? Place, time, people. So just because they did it once doesn't mean you're going to replicate it. Because that would be almost kind of scientific and cloning, right?Max: Yeah. We're not robots just yet. Mary: Not yet but I hear they're working on it. Max: Yeah. So we are. And to wrap up our discussion, Mary, and to put it in the 2020 context. This year has been testing for a lot of people and for organizations, I believe Concentrix has done huge progress in transitioning to work from home, and work from anywhere perhaps. Can you share with us, some success stories from your executive team on how that transition was handled? And, you know, what hidden talents this challenging year may have, you know, put before and revealed in your team?Mary:  Yeah. Awesome. That is a great way to kind of wrap this because I think this year, and I think everyone can attest to this. This year has been one of the most difficult for any business you're in. I mean, global pandemic and then in certain businesses it's been a bigger issue. We are global, obviously, we have 250,000 people, so that's a big footprint to manage.Max: A quarter million!Mary: Yeah, quarter million is kind of scary. Right? So when you think about it, we went from an industry where it was primarily cubicle work in an office, to work from home almost overnight. Our senior team, I have to say, they worked incredibly well together to get very clear. We knew what the mission was, get everybody working from home as quickly as you can for our clients and for our people, while staying safe. Because of such a strong culture built we have and buy into the culture, the team worked incredibly well, and I can't share data, but quote - unquote, almost overnight, made that happen. Right? Just imagine what that takes. Here we are, eight months after COVID really kind of started. Having the vast majority of the group still working from home where possible. Actually, and I think this industry I'm speaking up for, I don't know for a fact, seeing this I think this industry may take a look at work from home. It's going to become more popular. Or more the manner. I don't know if it'll ever be the only way, but I think that just shows we could remain in business and we didn't have to have everyone contained in a cubicle or in an office. And I wanna, you know, think and even express, you know, gratitude from so many, you know, 250,000 of us, to the senior executives who are pulling together so quickly.And really being clear on that purpose. it's amazing when you're someone who is clear on a purpose, and you have a group also clear on that purpose, you can move mountains, right? Or you can actually move a hundred thousands of computers like that. Max: Yeah. It was beautiful to see what happened to the industry this year. It was difficult of course, for some people, we've seen divorce rates go up, suicides rates, alcohol consumption and other indicators that show that those stressors on the market have been felt. with the commuting time being reduced to zero, however, we can look at it as, perhaps the day is less and less crowded with waste. Maybe it's a little bit more purposeful. Is that how your executive team is experiencing it? Because I know at the management level, managing people remotely takes probably even more time than doing it in the office where you can have everybody in a room. So are they feeling, are they feeling the weights of those extra hours or they're enjoying the freedom from commute? Where's the balance? Mary: Where's the balance? Well it's an interesting balance. The vast majority, because we are global, a lot of what we did was, you know, via telecommunications. It wasn't necessarily as in person. But for those that have the in-person experiences initially was very difficult, a lot of us miss and who doesn't miss that contact, that said, people are finding and it's going on two different camps here.They're actually working more because they're in their home. You know, you don't have to get up, commute, change. All that logistical stuff has gone. So you just fill your work into that space. So whereas we talk about setting boundaries, right? Others have actually found, instead of working in that space, that they're getting really good about boundaries and really finding that they're more of themselves, both in work and home. So I've had others go the other way. It wasn't necessarily divorce and suicide, but more family time, more presence. I'm not on the road. So I wouldn't say it's one or the other. It really just depends on individual cases. I think we can speak to this around any firm or anyone. I mean, this year has been loaded with work, add COVID as a stressor, and then add business as a stressor, add personal schooling. And if you look at all those stressors, it's a stressful time for anyone wherever you're at. And so that is going to impact the greater population. Max: Well, I'm, I'm taking a lot of positives from your answer, where people have been spending more time at home. And being able to put in more hours and, you know, and so important work as well. And so obviously top executives will respond to challenges with a good level of resiliency. And, it sounds like they have, and they've done a good job of transitioning the company at a scale that nobody could have imagined.Thank you for sharing those stories, Mary. I wish you and your team much success in 2021. And, thank you for coming to the show. Mary: Well, thank you, Max. Awesome. Here's to everyone's good 2021.That was Mary Meston VP of talent management at Concentrix reminding us to create space. That's what she does for the executives at Concentrix and what she reminds us to do for ourselves. I enjoyed it as I hope you did as well. If you did, please follow us, please follow the recruitment hackers podcast.And if you'd like to be on the show or know somebody who I should interview. Remember to reach out on talkpush.com I'm always looking for more interesting people to talk to. Thank you.

Playlist: 01 Bob Dylan – Don't Think Twice, It's All Right - Album: “The Freewhilin' Bob Dylan”..02 Led Zeppelin – Your Time is Gonna Come – Album: “Led Zeppelin I°” ..03 The Beatles – Rocky Raccoon – Album:”White Album”..04 David Crosby – Music is Love – Album: “If I Could Only Remember My Name”..05 Blind Faith – Can't Find My Way Home – Album: “Blind Faith”..06 Rolling Stones – No Expectations – Album: “Beggars Banquet”..07 Jimi Hendrix Experience – All Along the Watchtower – Album: “Electric Ladyland”..08 Peter, Paul and Mary – It's Raining - Album “Peter, Paul and Mary”..09 Roy Harper – Hors d'Ouvres - Album: “Stormcock”..10 Pink Floyd – The Greatest Gig in the Sky - Album: “The Dark Side of the Moon”..11 David Bowie – Memory of a Free Festival – Album: “Space Oddity”..12 Grace Slick – Theme from the Movie Manhole – Album: “Manhole”

Playlist: 01 Bob Dylan – Don’t Think Twice, It’s All Right - Album: “The Freewhilin’ Bob Dylan”..02 Led Zeppelin – Your Time is Gonna Come – Album: “Led Zeppelin I°” ..03 The Beatles – Rocky Raccoon – Album:”White Album”..04 David Crosby – Music is Love – Album: “If I Could Only Remember My Name”..05 Blind Faith – Can’t Find My Way Home – Album: “Blind Faith”..06 Rolling Stones – No Expectations – Album: “Beggars Banquet”..07 Jimi Hendrix Experience – All Along the Watchtower – Album: “Electric Ladyland”..08 Peter, Paul and Mary – It’s Raining - Album “Peter, Paul and Mary”..09 Roy Harper – Hors d’Ouvres - Album: “Stormcock”..10 Pink Floyd – The Greatest Gig in the Sky - Album: “The Dark Side of the Moon”..11 David Bowie – Memory of a Free Festival – Album: “Space Oddity”..12 Grace Slick – Theme from the Movie Manhole – Album: “Manhole”

Playlist: 01 Bob Dylan – Don’t Think Twice, It’s All Right - Album: “The Freewhilin’ Bob Dylan”..02 Led Zeppelin – Your Time is Gonna Come – Album: “Led Zeppelin I°” ..03 The Beatles – Rocky Raccoon – Album:”White Album”..04 David Crosby – Music is Love – Album: “If I Could Only Remember My Name”..05 Blind Faith – Can’t Find My Way Home – Album: “Blind Faith”..06 Rolling Stones – No Expectations – Album: “Beggars Banquet”..07 Jimi Hendrix Experience – All Along the Watchtower – Album: “Electric Ladyland”..08 Peter, Paul and Mary – It’s Raining - Album “Peter, Paul and Mary”..09 Roy Harper – Hors d’Ouvres - Album: “Stormcock”..10 Pink Floyd – The Greatest Gig in the Sky - Album: “The Dark Side of the Moon”..11 David Bowie – Memory of a Free Festival – Album: “Space Oddity”..12 Grace Slick – Theme from the Movie Manhole – Album: “Manhole”

Jane bent over and handed her phone to Mary, “ask my phone some questions, Mary." “In English?" Mary asked. “I am better at English, but I can use the google translator if you like," Lisa answered. Mary looked at the phone, “are you talking to me?" “Yes, Mary I am talking to you. My name is Lisa." “Where do you live, Lisa?" Mary asked. “I live in the computer that is in the clouds," Lisa answered. Mary looked to Jane for confirmation that what Lisa said was true. Jane simply nodded “Where did you learn English?” Lisa asked. “The Texas boys in Youth Services came to our town last summer. One lived in our house, and he taught me and my mom English better." “A friend of mine told me about Youth Services,” Jane said looking at Mary. Rose answered, “Texas sends all their high school graduates and some college graduates to Youth Services to help out old people, other countries, and to just do good stuff. They are very popular in Mexico.” “The boy was very cute; his name was Michael,” Mary volunteered. “That is how they handle their excess labor,” Jane explained. “I do not know about that, but they help lots of people. They even work in our schools teaching English and math, and lots of stuff,” Mary said. Lisa continued, “would you like to go on a walk with me, Mary?” “Okay, where would you like to go?" Mary asked. “Let’s go to the market and take some pictures," Lisa suggested. “What do you want to take pictures of Lisa?” “I want you to look for people you don’t know and take their pictures. However, I don’t want them to know that you are taking their pictures," Lisa instructed. “Do you know how to do that?” “Sure, it is how we take pictures of the boys at school. I do it all the time, and I never get caught," bragged Mary. “I also want you to take pictures of fancy cars, okay, Mary?” “It sounds like fun, Lisa. I don’t understand, are you a person, Lisa?" Mary asked. “Let’s just say it is complicated," Lisa said avoiding the conversation. “So, it is kind of like being gay," Mary concluded. “Thinking …. ," a subroutine conveyed. “What’s wrong with your voice, Lisa?" Mary asked. “I am back. Your comment, I did not understand," Lisa explained. “That is an interesting perspective. I want to discuss it with Jane later.” Listen for more .. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/alamo/message

What You'll Learn From This Episode: How to deal with missing process in your company Not to feel overwhelmed and trust your team Putting accountability to people ​ Related Links and Resources: Jason and Mary Sturgeon host a weekly peer group for construction companies and it's called builder chat. If you go to www.arcadewayfinding.com/builder-chat , every Thursday at 1PM Pacific and talk about contractor things, and work through construction problems and company problems. Also check out their personal podcast at www.arcadewayfinding.com/critpath/ were they talk about fun topics, light topics but also impacting and heavy-hitting construction topics as well. Summary: Jason and Mary Sturgeon are both ‘Principal Wayfinders' at Arcade. Arcade Wayfinding is an organization based, first and foremost, on finding the best, most magnetic ways to help construction industry people to make beneficial changes to their habits and workflow, and to better understand the nature of their work. We lean into a hands-on approach, so our training series focus on workshops, games, interactive activities and keeping people talking, laughing and engaged. One of our core beliefs is that if you're not engaged, you're not learning. Here are the highlights of this episode: 1:26 Jason and Mary's ideal Client: The ideal client for us would be someone who is good at their business, they're good at their trade, and they are good people. It's really important to us that they are good people, the people you want to sit down and have dinner with. And there are people that need a little bit of help. Everybody doesn't know everything, and when you recognize that you are not an expert at everything under the sun, your first step would be to identify those resource experts and get them in your corners. So that you are better prepared to be able to deal with the challenges that life throws at you. 2:11Problem both of you helps solve: Mary: It's true that there are lot of little problems, but if you had to put it under one big heading, it will be missing process. We start building company out and we do the thing we do and we're good at it, we work with the people that we like and that works well. And at some point, the business will grow up to a point that we need processes to help us help our people get work done. Were a lot of construction owners is good in construction, but they're not good at process. Jason: So, they're very good at their trade, they're good at their discipline, but when it comes to building process where training to that process, that's where it all breaks down. 3:11Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Jason and Mary: Jason: The symptoms are pretty simple and we see them all the time. They feel like that they can't get away from the business, they feel like they can't take a vacation, they feel like there's no one around them that they can trust and delegate to. Mary: If they don't do it, it doesn't get done. Jason: And there is a sense that I wish we could just grow; I wish we could just scale. But you don't take a car that needs some engine work and make it go faster. You actually have to invest the time to make it run clean and then you can go as fast as you want. But we skip that step, it turns into frustration, friction, anger and turmoil within our team. 4:20What are some of the common mistakes that folks make before finding both of you and your solution: Mary: One of the first mistakes is that before they even start trying to solve the problem, they make the mistakes of thinking that they have a different problem than they have. Jason: They feel like it's special Mary: What people would tell us, their problem is, my team is not accountable; they don't have accountability. And they think that the problem is that they're hiring people who are not accountable people. And the truth is, accountability is an outcome, it's a thing that you have to build.

What You’ll Learn From This Episode: How to deal with missing process in your company Not to feel overwhelmed and trust your team Putting accountability to people ​ Related Links and Resources: Jason and Mary Sturgeon host a weekly peer group for construction companies and it's called builder chat. If you go to www.arcadewayfinding.com/builder-chat , every Thursday at 1PM Pacific and talk about contractor things, and work through construction problems and company problems. Also check out their personal podcast at www.arcadewayfinding.com/critpath/ were they talk about fun topics, light topics but also impacting and heavy-hitting construction topics as well. Summary: Jason and Mary Sturgeon are both ‘Principal Wayfinders’ at Arcade. Arcade Wayfinding is an organization based, first and foremost, on finding the best, most magnetic ways to help construction industry people to make beneficial changes to their habits and workflow, and to better understand the nature of their work. We lean into a hands-on approach, so our training series focus on workshops, games, interactive activities and keeping people talking, laughing and engaged. One of our core beliefs is that if you’re not engaged, you’re not learning. Here are the highlights of this episode: 1:26 Jason and Mary’s ideal Client: The ideal client for us would be someone who is good at their business, they're good at their trade, and they are good people. It's really important to us that they are good people, the people you want to sit down and have dinner with. And there are people that need a little bit of help. Everybody doesn't know everything, and when you recognize that you are not an expert at everything under the sun, your first step would be to identify those resource experts and get them in your corners. So that you are better prepared to be able to deal with the challenges that life throws at you. 2:11Problem both of you helps solve: Mary: It's true that there are lot of little problems, but if you had to put it under one big heading, it will be missing process. We start building company out and we do the thing we do and we're good at it, we work with the people that we like and that works well. And at some point, the business will grow up to a point that we need processes to help us help our people get work done. Were a lot of construction owners is good in construction, but they're not good at process. Jason: So, they're very good at their trade, they're good at their discipline, but when it comes to building process where training to that process, that's where it all breaks down. 3:11Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Jason and Mary: Jason: The symptoms are pretty simple and we see them all the time. They feel like that they can't get away from the business, they feel like they can't take a vacation, they feel like there's no one around them that they can trust and delegate to. Mary: If they don't do it, it doesn't get done. Jason: And there is a sense that I wish we could just grow; I wish we could just scale. But you don't take a car that needs some engine work and make it go faster. You actually have to invest the time to make it run clean and then you can go as fast as you want. But we skip that step, it turns into frustration, friction, anger and turmoil within our team. 4:20What are some of the common mistakes that folks make before finding both of you and your solution: Mary: One of the first mistakes is that before they even start trying to solve the problem, they make the mistakes of thinking that they have a different problem than they have. Jason: They feel like it's special Mary: What people would tell us, their problem is, my team is not accountable; they don't have accountability. And they think that the problem is that they're hiring people who are not accountable people. And the truth is, accountability is an outcome, it's a thing that you have to build.

公众号：一席文化主播：翩翩 | Mary青岛一名外国人，插队并咆哮事件登上了热搜，并且在持续发酵（It goes sour）热点话题： hot topic在社交网站转发：sharing on the social media. 美国小伙伴Mary，恰好跟“咆哮男”在同一微信群，和大家来聊一聊这件登上热搜的事，以及背后的故事（story behind the story）1. “热搜”，用英语怎么说？热搜：TrendingHe's trending.He's trending on Weibo.It's a trending topic.2. 排队，插队怎么说？队伍： 美国人说： line英国人说： queue* “排队”： Line up （美国） / queue up（英国） * 学校里，常听到：line up! Line up! 排好队，排好队！ * grocery stores ： “line up behind the marker” 在标志后面排队 * 我正在排队：I'm waiting in line. * 如果有人看起来好像they're waiting in line，但是不确定，你想check一下，看看能不能 go in front of them（到他前面去）就可以说：Are you in line? 你在排队吗？* 请问，在哪里排队？Where's the end of the line? （队伍尽头在哪里？）3. 如果有人插队，怎样用英文怼回去？ 插队： Cut in line * 小孩们，可以说“no cutting!!!!!” * 大人一般会说： “the end of the line is over there” (队伍尽头在那边) * 还可以说： Excuse me, I was here first. 不好意思，我先来的4. 美国人插队咆哮事件，故事后面的故事。happen to ：恰好有人将这个视频转发到群内: people were sharing this video and talking about it.主角“咆哮男”就pop out,并说：it's me.* His side of the story. 他的一面之词：The clinic told him to go in front of the line. 工作人员早已提前与他约好时间，让他不用排队，直接过去。A man took his passport，so he threw his paper. 一名男子（因他插队）拿了他的护照，所以他扔了他的化验单。* Another side of the story 另一个版本群里，有另外一名男士跳出来说：我当时在场，they had just cut the line ：他们就是插队了。They were lying about it：他们不承认而已。最终，“咆哮男” issued an apology 发了一封道歉声明。5. 其他外国人怎么看？the foreigner groups have been blowing up. 外国人群已经炸了。外国人们的担忧：There has been across China an increase in anti-foreigner sentiment. 很怕在中国国内，会升起敌对“外国人” 的情绪。 * anti-foreigner：反外国人* sentiment：态度情绪更怕我们会 paint all foreigners with the same brush（认为天下乌鸦一般黑）。paint … with the same brush ：用同一把刷子刷（一视同仁）。6. 外国人在中国，享有“特权”吗？会有。一方面，中国是一个好客的国度，对待外人比较谦让。另外，不可否认，由于某些历史形成的原因，部分人存在“媚外”倾向。美国人Mary常在银行、医院等地方碰到“美好而尴尬”的福利：几年前，在医院做检查， * A worker called me to come up ：工作人员叫我过去（做检查）* I wasn't next in line：还没排队到我。* My number wasn't called：我的号也还没有被抽到。但是，这种“特权”让一部分比较自觉的外国人，感觉到焦虑不安：My Chinese is good， I can understand what people are saying. 我的汉语挺好，能听懂周围人的“议论”。* I didn't want to step on any toes 我不想踩到谁的脚趾头（不想惹麻烦）7. 反思* 外国人来中国，应该学好汉语，了解当地文化，遇事用汉语好好解释。行走在国外，应当谦逊低调，个人修养不足，于己于国，皆有所损。* 我们，也有需要反思的地方：规则应该是对所有人有效的，如果真的有特权，那么享受特权的，应该是老弱病残孕，而不是外国人。 Mary说： Everyone has times that they regret getting angry or reacting in a certain way. 每个人都有为自己的愤怒而后悔的时候，也有为自己的一些反应而后悔的时候。希望这名咆哮男，能够真心悔过。

公众号：一席文化主播：翩翩 | Mary青岛一名外国人，插队并咆哮事件登上了热搜，并且在持续发酵（It goes sour）热点话题： hot topic在社交网站转发：sharing on the social media. 美国小伙伴Mary，恰好跟“咆哮男”在同一微信群，和大家来聊一聊这件登上热搜的事，以及背后的故事（story behind the story）1. “热搜”，用英语怎么说？热搜：TrendingHe's trending.He's trending on Weibo.It's a trending topic.2. 排队，插队怎么说？队伍： 美国人说： line英国人说： queue* “排队”： Line up （美国） / queue up（英国） * 学校里，常听到：line up! Line up! 排好队，排好队！ * grocery stores ： “line up behind the marker” 在标志后面排队 * 我正在排队：I'm waiting in line. * 如果有人看起来好像they're waiting in line，但是不确定，你想check一下，看看能不能 go in front of them（到他前面去）就可以说：Are you in line? 你在排队吗？* 请问，在哪里排队？Where's the end of the line? （队伍尽头在哪里？）3. 如果有人插队，怎样用英文怼回去？ 插队： Cut in line * 小孩们，可以说“no cutting!!!!!” * 大人一般会说： “the end of the line is over there” (队伍尽头在那边) * 还可以说： Excuse me, I was here first. 不好意思，我先来的4. 美国人插队咆哮事件，故事后面的故事。happen to ：恰好有人将这个视频转发到群内: people were sharing this video and talking about it.主角“咆哮男”就pop out,并说：it's me.* His side of the story. 他的一面之词：The clinic told him to go in front of the line. 工作人员早已提前与他约好时间，让他不用排队，直接过去。A man took his passport，so he threw his paper. 一名男子（因他插队）拿了他的护照，所以他扔了他的化验单。* Another side of the story 另一个版本群里，有另外一名男士跳出来说：我当时在场，they had just cut the line ：他们就是插队了。They were lying about it：他们不承认而已。最终，“咆哮男” issued an apology 发了一封道歉声明。5. 其他外国人怎么看？the foreigner groups have been blowing up. 外国人群已经炸了。外国人们的担忧：There has been across China an increase in anti-foreigner sentiment. 很怕在中国国内，会升起敌对“外国人” 的情绪。 * anti-foreigner：反外国人* sentiment：态度情绪更怕我们会 paint all foreigners with the same brush（认为天下乌鸦一般黑）。paint … with the same brush ：用同一把刷子刷（一视同仁）。6. 外国人在中国，享有“特权”吗？会有。一方面，中国是一个好客的国度，对待外人比较谦让。另外，不可否认，由于某些历史形成的原因，部分人存在“媚外”倾向。美国人Mary常在银行、医院等地方碰到“美好而尴尬”的福利：几年前，在医院做检查， * A worker called me to come up ：工作人员叫我过去（做检查）* I wasn't next in line：还没排队到我。* My number wasn't called：我的号也还没有被抽到。但是，这种“特权”让一部分比较自觉的外国人，感觉到焦虑不安：My Chinese is good， I can understand what people are saying. 我的汉语挺好，能听懂周围人的“议论”。* I didn't want to step on any toes 我不想踩到谁的脚趾头（不想惹麻烦）7. 反思* 外国人来中国，应该学好汉语，了解当地文化，遇事用汉语好好解释。行走在国外，应当谦逊低调，个人修养不足，于己于国，皆有所损。* 我们，也有需要反思的地方：规则应该是对所有人有效的，如果真的有特权，那么享受特权的，应该是老弱病残孕，而不是外国人。 Mary说： Everyone has times that they regret getting angry or reacting in a certain way. 每个人都有为自己的愤怒而后悔的时候，也有为自己的一些反应而后悔的时候。希望这名咆哮男，能够真心悔过。

You don&`&t say! （表示惊讶）不会这样吧！不至于吧！Stop saying that！别说了!Sally: The Jones boys are keeping a pet snake. Jones家的小孩养了条宠物蛇。Alice: You don&`&t say.不是吧！You can say that again!你说得很对！Mary: It sure is hot today. 今天的确很热啊。Jane: You can say that again!说的没错！Who can say?谁能说得准?A: What are you gonna do? Now that you&`&ve left the company?既然你已经离开公司了，你准备干吗？B: Who can say? Maybe I'll go abroad.谁能说得准。或许我会出国。Having said that 话又说回来，尽管如此He forgets most things, but having said that, he always remembers my birthday.他总忘事，尽管如此，他一直记得我的生日。Not say boo 什么也没说，一言未发The neighbor&`&s daughter is just the cutest little thing, but she didn&`&t say boo the whole time we were there.邻居的女儿是非常可爱，不过我们在那里的时候，她就没有开口说话。今日挑战选择并翻译写在留言处和大家分享It says in the paper that they ___ man who ___ it.A. have found…didB. find…have doneC. had found…did【翻阅上一期内容即可查阅正确答案】【下一期内容的正确答案解析】Farming has been mechanized, reducing the need for labour. 农业机械化，减少了对劳动力的需求。

You don&`&t say! （表示惊讶）不会这样吧！不至于吧！Stop saying that！别说了!Sally: The Jones boys are keeping a pet snake. Jones家的小孩养了条宠物蛇。Alice: You don&`&t say.不是吧！You can say that again!你说得很对！Mary: It sure is hot today. 今天的确很热啊。Jane: You can say that again!说的没错！Who can say?谁能说得准?A: What are you gonna do? Now that you&`&ve left the company?既然你已经离开公司了，你准备干吗？B: Who can say? Maybe I'll go abroad.谁能说得准。或许我会出国。Having said that 话又说回来，尽管如此He forgets most things, but having said that, he always remembers my birthday.他总忘事，尽管如此，他一直记得我的生日。Not say boo 什么也没说，一言未发The neighbor&`&s daughter is just the cutest little thing, but she didn&`&t say boo the whole time we were there.邻居的女儿是非常可爱，不过我们在那里的时候，她就没有开口说话。今日挑战选择并翻译写在留言处和大家分享It says in the paper that they ___ man who ___ it.A. have found…didB. find…have doneC. had found…did【翻阅上一期内容即可查阅正确答案】【下一期内容的正确答案解析】Farming has been mechanized, reducing the need for labour. 农业机械化，减少了对劳动力的需求。

What should our relationship be with people who talk too much or otherwise annoy us? Should we write them off as too self-absorbed and move on? Or is there another way to relate? Today’s episode explores this issue.A listener in Florida contacted me recently about a problem they were having that I sometimes have: People who talk too much. People who talk AT you, rather than WITH you. “It is so very draining,” this listener commented. I can certainly relate. A few days ago I was at at a coffee shop waiting for my friend David to show up to help me with my web site. The place was crowded and the only empty table was next to a group of 3 guys, one of whom was very loud and who talked non-stop. He was holding court for his two friends, who could not have talked if they had wanted to. He had captured all the available air time for himself, and wasn’t going to release any of it for anyone. Watching his friends being talked AT like this made me wonder, “Why do they put up with him?” While waiting for my friend, I just wanted peace and quiet so I could think. It was quite annoying to be so close to what seemed to be this self-absorbed man who appeared to be rolling over his two friends with his inexhaustible amount of verbiage. Like my listener friend in Florida, we all know people like this. They can be exhausting. When they are not talking about themselves they may pause to ask a question, but then very soon turn the spotlight of the conversation back on to them. It’s like playing tennis where the talker serves the ball, you as the listener volley a response back, but then instead of hitting the ball back to you, the talker keeps it on his side of the net. How do yo relate with a person like this? Do you avoid them? Do you fight for air time? This is the subject of today’s show, How do I relate to people who talk too much? I don’t know if this would work for our listener friend from Florida, but in my better moments, when I’m not my usual self, I would begin to deal with this annoying problem of someone talking too much by focusing on ME. That’s right, with ME. I would deal with ME first. I would do so by asking myself a bunch of questions. Because often the solution to our difficulties often arise out of the questions we ask. Let’s use my recent coffee shop experience with the dominating talker as an example. Here is what I need to ask myself in situations like this. 1. Why does this annoying person bother me so much? The two friends of Mr. Talker Man were obviously not bothered by him. Why am I? They chose to meet to meet up with him at the coffee shop, so there must have been some perceived benefit in getting together with him. But why did it bother me and not them?While they had a choice to be in his presence, I did not. The only available table for me was right next to him. Could my lack of a reasonable choice be why I was bothered so much? I think there’s more to it than just that. 2. What need do I have in this situation that is not being met? The need for peace and calm so I can think and reflect. A busy coffee shop may not be the best place for this. So it may be my fault for having this unrealistic expectation. Maybe what I needed was to at least have my need for calm and quiet to be acknowledged. But then how would Mr. Talker Man, or anyone, know that’s what I needed? I didn’t even know until I thought about it later. 3. Does this situation trigger something else going on inside of me? Does it remind me of something else? If so, what is it? Yeah, I’ve been in conversations with people who talk AT me like our Florida listener. Where I feel like I’ve been pushed into a corner with a tsunami of words. Where I don’t get a turn to talk. Maybe that’s it, I want a turn. I don’t want to hear a monologue, I’d like a dialog. Maybe this situation reminds me of other conversations in the past where a dominating talker has little or no interest in what I have to say. Maybe this event is just triggering my feelings of being marginalized in other areas of my life. Hmm. 4. Could it be that what is annoying me about this person is a flaw I have myself? Is it possible I’m not much different than the person who annoys me? Ouch. Yeah, I can recall leaving a conversation with friends when I’ve been so animated, and realize later I talked way too much. I’m going have to try harder next time. Having done some self-examination of myself, it would now be helpful to consider the annoying person, the dominant talker, by asking a bunch of questions of ourself about the other person. 5. How did they get this way, with talking too much or other annoying behavior? What was their upbringing like? Large family? Did they have no voice? Did they have to fight for air time? 6. What is the payoff for the person to dominate conversations like they do? Every behavior has a pay off, some benefit to it, otherwise we would not engage in that behavior. I wonder what it is for dominating talkers. I wonder it it could be he needs to be the center of attention to feel good about himself. I wonder if he’s afraid of people getting too close to him relationally, that he takes over the air waves to protect himself from others getting to know him. Hmm. 7. Could talking too much be a strategy they developed years ago when they were younger - that worked for them then. But now it’s doing just the opposite? We sometimes do this when we’ve come from a dysfunctional childhood. We developed skills that helped us survive back then, but we continue to use them in the here and now as adults, even though they’re no longer appropriate or helpful. 8. Is this the one area where they can exert a measure of control? Perhaps they lack control in other areas of their life, and this is the one part of their life where they do have control. 9. Is the talker just self-absorbed, or is he just lonely? Peggy Noonan, in a recent Wall Street Journal article about the manufactured political strife in our country, quoted the Irish saying, “Contention is better than Loneliness.” We do all kinds of things to combat the loneliness many of us feel. Here’s an example.      [The Bible study story with "Mary"] It would have been easy to write Mary off as just self-absorbed. But there was something deeper going on. She was just lonely.  It’s a lot trickier when it comes to dealing with our friends who talk too much, or otherwise annoy us. 10. How can I be more like friends of the talker and embrace who the talker is rather than want to flee from him? 11. Would setting a boundary with people like this be a good idea, or would it be just an excuse to be self-protective and distance myself? 12. How much energy do I have available for this relationship? If I invest more fully in this relationship, will that take me away from other relationships that are of higher priority? 13. Should I have a heart to heart talk with my friend, about what they’re doing that annoys me? Story of Tom and  “Let me ask you this….” 14. Why is it hard for me to look upon people like this with compassion, like “Sheep without a Shepherd” like Jesus does ? How can I be more like Jesus? 15. How can I show grace and cut the person some slack? Before I close, here’s the he main take-away from today’s episode, our show in a sentence People who annoy us often expose hidden issues within us, that when exposed and dealt with, can lead us to more fulfilling relationships with people. Here’s a way you can respond to today’s show Think of an annoying person in your life. Ask yourself the questions I suggest, and see if it doesn’t move the needle of your compassion meter just a little more into the positive zone. You’ll find those questions in the show notes. Coming up next week I will talk about the most important relationship of all. And as if that was not enough, I’ll answer the most common question I get about this podcast: Who is Carol? Be sure to tune in next week to find out. Closing I hope you found today’s episode beneficial in considering the issue raised from our listener in Florida, How do I relate to people who talk too much. I’d love to hear from more of you about relationship issues or questions on your mind…as long as they’re not dating questions. I’ll leave that to the gazillion of other podcasts that focus on that. You can send an email to me at john@caringforothers.org. Finally, If you’d like to help see this podcast grow, please write a brief review in iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I would greatly appreciate that as it will help the word about what we are doing.. Relationship Quote of the Week The only questions that really matter are the ones you ask yours      ~ Ursula K. Le Guin Well that’s it for now, I look forward to connecting with you next week. Bye for now.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Adrienne: Wow, Mary, that's a great dining room table. Where did you get it?Mary: Oh, thanks. That is something, a project that Dave and I worked on over a couple of weekends. We really enjoy doing woodworking and he actually has a very elaborate woodshop at his house and it's something I really enjoy working on too, so we thought of a project, which was the table and kind of designed what it would look like and bought some lumber and used his tools to figure out exactly how to put it all together and the process was a lot of fun, um, making the plan and actually using four or five different kinds of tools to assemble it and get it all put together. I have to say that I wasn't quite sure what it was going to end up looking like cause in the rough form it wasn't impressing me too much but once everything was sanded and stained and done it really impressed me so it's a lot of fun to do.Adrienne: So you made the table from scratch?Mary: Yep, Yep we did. Just bought some lumber, certain sizes of lumber and ended up cutting it to the different kind of things we needed so it was like making a pattern and then using all these raw materials to put together to create the final product.Adrienne: Wow, that's really impressive cause it's a nice table.Mary: I really like it. It was a lot of fun to do.Adrienne: Um, any other projects you've done that you have in the house?Mary: Um, well, not quite like the table, but just some general finishing things, for instance if something is broken, like I'm not sure if you noticed, but my front door has no doorknob at the moment so I do have a doorknob and I will be fixing that at some point, soAdrienne: That falls, I'm sorry, does that fall into the category of woodworking?Mary: It can cause it's gonna involve some tools.Adrienne: I see. Very cool. Thanks.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Adrienne: So, Mary, are you from Minnesota?Mary: I am. I lived here all my life.Adrienne: Wow. It's a great place but it's really cold this time of year.Mary: It is, but if you've lived here a long time you get used to it. A lot of people from the South get really chilly when the temperature gets around 50 and right now that's, that's actually sounding pretty good because a Minnesotan will probably just be wearing a lightweight jacket when it is about 50 degrees, but we're OK with that. You know it gets to be kind of fun when you have a big snowfall and you go outside with all your neighbors, pushing cars out of the snow drift and kind of enjoying it that way so we have a lot of fun with it being cold and snowy and you have to make some fun on the inside of your house too, you know. A lot of people have fireplaces, so there's a way to enjoy being inside for long stretches of time and opposed to just kind of, I guess, being locked in and not being able to enjoy house or that kind of thing.Adrienne: What do you do to warm up in the winter?Mary: Well, there's always sweaters. You know we like our sweaters here, that keeps us warm. Actually, you can get pretty warm outside. A lot of people enjoy cross-country skiing which I do from time-to-time and the more you exercise outside, you can actually get pretty warm doing it even though the temperature is cold, but as far as being indoors, that's when, I think that's when people start really kind of researching their hobbies, things they like to do, that's activity that will keep you busy while you are inside the house for such long stretches and things.Adrienne: Yeah, that's true. I like to drink hot chocolate when I get cold. Do you like hot chocolate?Mary: Yeah, that will always help, and tea, really enjoying my tea as well, but there's nothing like, you know, hot chocolate and maybe roasting something in the fireplace and making smores.Adrienne: That sounds great.Mary: Yeah, that would be kind of fun.Adrienne: Very cozy.

配乐：《Mike Dawes - Titanium》笨笨口语四步法Ben's Four Steps第一步：音节分解第二步：逐个单词第三步：连读分解第四步：一气呵成I just want to slack off today.我今天想偷懒。 NO.1音节分解（多音节词详细分解，方便读音与记忆）双音节词to-day：/tə-ˈdeɪ/ adv. (副词）在今天 NO.2逐个单词（标准美音慢速朗读，讲解拼读、音标、词法、语法）I我just仅仅want想要to slack松懈的 off离开today在今天 拼读与音标拼读a字母的闭音节/æ/例词：slack（单音节）松懈的lack（单音节）缺乏black（单音节）黑色的fact（单音节）事实 词法与语法无 NO.3连读分解（连读略读，全面分解，真正说出一口流利美式英语）连读slack off→slack offsla ckoff略读just want to→just want tojus wan to NO.4一气呵成（慢速朗读，反复收听，大声模仿，脱口而出)I just want to slack off today.我今天想偷懒。 英英解释单词学英语思维（既然是英英解释，不再提供中文翻译）slack：松懈的;懈怠的 Someone who is slack in their work does not do it properly. 坐在课室上课没有精神时，坐在办公室没有心思工作时，该怎么办呢？只好是不被别人发现的情况下，偷个懒，“打混摸鱼”，而Slack off是口语上很常见的说法。请看例句：1. Slack off 偷懒Tony：I just want to slack off today.我今天想偷懒。Andy: Isn't that what you did yesterday?你昨天不是已经这样做了吗？2. Sleep in 赖床Sleep是睡觉，除了Stay in bed是赖床之外，我们还可以用sleep in来表达“赖床”，请看例句：Mary：It's Monday again! I wish I could sleep in.今天又是周一了，我真希望我可以赖床。Bill: Of course you can. You'll just be fired that's all.当然可以啊，不过你会被开除而已。3. Lazybone 懒骨头这个英语表达的构造和我们中文里的表达很像，中文里说是懒骨头，那英文里也可以直接讲lazybone。请看例句：Kid：Dad，don't wake me up until noon.爸爸，中午前不要叫醒我。Dad: You lazybone. It's already dinner time.你这个懒骨头，现在已经是晚餐时间了。4. Feel sluggish 反应迟钝、感觉迟钝不知道大家有没有试过在感冒的时候或者星期一的时候，脑子不太灵光，手脚也不是太灵活呢？那么，这种情形，你就可以用这个表达来表示自己的感觉。额外补充一句，slug是指没有壳的蜗牛，代表动作很慢。请看例句：Bonnie：I'm feeling sluggish today.今天我感觉身体动作缓慢。Cindy: You are a slug in real life.你本身就是一只（动作缓慢的）没有壳的蜗牛。5. Couch potato 花大量时间看电视的人注意哦，couch potato可不是一道菜肴，而是指坐在沙发上看电视偷懒的人，而当我们靠在沙发上时，可以一边吃potato chips，可以一边看电视，想想也是觉得蛮开心的。请看例句：Daisy：What's your plan for the weekend?你这个周末有什么打算吗？Elena: I had a long week. I just want to be a couch potato.这个星期过得好漫长，我只想呆在家里看电视。看完以上的内容，那下次和小伙伴聊到有关“偷懒“的英语话题，一定要记得使用今天学过的表达哦！

Amazon mystery bestselling author Mary Castillo finds a fine balance in her novels between the paranormal, historical fiction and mystery. After a hiatus that lasted longer than I anticipated (and included a move across the country, a very bad cold, and a couple of weeks of couch surfing with some very dear -and very patient - friends), I am thrilled to be back to broadcasting It's a Mystery Podcast. Thank you for joining me again. I've got lots of great mystery author guests lined up and I'm very excited to bring you the first of these, Mary Castillo. Mary and I share a love of history and in this interview she talks about some of the inspiration for her Dori O paranormal mysteries, including growing up in a haunted house (!), San Diego gangsters from the prohibition era, and a nurse from WWII. You can find out more about today's guest, Mary Castillo, and all her books on her website MaryCastillo.com. You can also find her on Twitter @MCastilloWrites. This episode of It's a Mystery Podcast is sponsored by the free novella, Charlie Horse. This is the first book in the Town Called Horse mystery series that fans are calling witty, colourful, engaging and suspenseful. Charlie Horse is a historical mystery with a modern twist. This is a book that's not available at any of the online retailers where the rest of my books are sold. But, for a limited time, it's easy to get your free copy. Click here or on the book cover at right and it will be very obvious where to click to grab the free ebook. Happy reading! Links and resources mentioned in this episode Click on any of the book covers to go to Mary's books on Amazon Mary mentions being inspired by Mary Stuart, who is one of my favorites from my teenage years as well. Ms. Stewart passed away in 2014 but you can still find her books online. Mary also mentions the influence of Daphne Du Maurier on her work. Here's Ms. Du Maurier's website. Press play (above) to listen to the show, or read the transcript below. Remember you can also subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. And listen on Stitcher. You can also click here to watch the interview on YouTube. Transcription of Interview with Mary Castillo Alexandra: Hi, mystery readers. I'm Alexandra Amor. This is It's a Mystery podcast. I'm here today with Mary Castillo. Hi, Mary. Mary: Hi. How are you? Alexandra: Very well. How are you? Mary: Doing good. I'm in Southern California and we're getting a heat wave for Thanksgiving. So I was really excited. I have my scarves out now. I got to pull out this summer stuff. Alexandra: Once again. Well, that's a nice problem to have. Mary: It is. Alexandra: Yes. So let me introduce our listeners to you. Amazon mystery bestselling author, Mary Castillo, loves a great startle story even though she makes her husband get up with her in the middle of the night after watching a scary movie. When she's not gardening, hiking or knitting, she's engrossed in a book. She writes books she loves, chilling, paranormal mysteries mixed with heartwarming romance and compelling characters who keep you turning the pages long past your bedtime. Mary grew up in a haunted house in National City California that inspired the "Dori O" paranormal mystery series which is what we're going to talk about here today. Mary, why don't you just give us a little overview of the series itself? Mary: The "Dori O" paranormal mystery series started as a novella. It was a chick lit novella back in 2005 to 2008. I wrote romantic comedies, chick lit, and I put together anthology called Names I Call My Sister. I started the story about this family wedding gone awry. Dori and her grammy, and her sister were the central characters in the story. Afterwards, Dori stayed in my mind. She's a robbery detective with San Diego PD. She's the white sheep in a family of black sheep.

Mary, with 3 years since her last drink, shares her story…. We all think that the cities we live in should be on the “Nations Drunkest Cities” list.  The state of Wisconsin wins the prize for the largest number of cities on this list.  Listed below are a few of the favorites: Greenbay, WI O’Clair, WI Appleton, WI Fargo, ND Missoula, MT Iowa City, IA Lincoln, NE Milwaukee, WI   SHOW NOTES   [6:31] Paul Introduces Mary   Mary – I am 3 years sober, live in Louisiana and am married with 5 children.  I like to run and bike and am currently raising puppies.  I am a college student and am enjoying getting to know my new sober self.   [9:32] Mary tells the story of her younger 13 year old self   Mary – I was 13 years old and baby-sitting an infant.  I invited some friends over and we started drinking.  I left the baby in her crib and we drove around.  I backed the car into a ditch and hit a palm tree.  The police ended up bringing me home.   [12:23] Mary describes her drinking habits   Mary – I was a daily beer drinker and would try to abide by my rules of not drinking before 5 pm.  This never worked.  At night, if I couldn’t sleep, I would have a drink.  If I woke up later in the night, I would have another drink.  Pretty soon my window of “not drinking” had shrunk.   [14:00] Did you see any signs that you had a problem?   Mary – If I went out, I would immediately have to have a drink and was always looking for the next one.  I would start my night with some drinks at home.  In my 20’s and 30’s, I surrounded myself with other drinkers so it seemed normal.  My drinking really took off in my 40’s.  I started noticing I had a problem more when I became a mom.   [17:21] What was the progression like into alcoholism?   Mary – 1 drink was never enough.  I started focusing more on when I could have a drink.  Alcohol helped me cope with life.  I hated myself.   [18:03] Tell me about this self- loathing    Mary – I used to think “this is as good as it gets?” I had accepted that my life was going to suck.   [18:45] Did you have a bottom?   Mary – I had grown sick and tired of drinking.  My family called me out as being drunk when I was slurring my speech.  A close friend of mine went to rehab.  I stopped drinking in order to support him.  As each day passed, I could not believe that I was still not drinking.  I went to Al-Anon in order to further support my friend.   [21:05] How did you do it?   Mary – I kept going to Al-Anon.  When I visited my friend, he took me to a meeting.  As I sat there listening, I realized I wanted what they had.  I worked the 12 steps.  My life has changed to being joyous and free.  It is freeing not having any more secrets.   [24:00] Paul and Mary talk about being sober emotionally   Mary – It felt good to get rid of all of my secrets.  I listened to other people in the program and did what they said.  I wanted to be happy and try to remain teachable.   [27:23] Describe a day in your life   Mary – I pray every morning and evening.  I also meditate (U-Tube 11th step guided meditation).  I reach out regularly to friends in the program.  I listen to AA recordings (Joe and Charlie AA tapes), read The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions.   [30:00] What is on your bucket list?   Mary – Continue to share my story, bring hope to others, and be of service to others.   [31:21] What have you learned the most?   Mary – That I am OK just the way that I am.  I am trying to have a good life and do the best I can.   [31:57] What are your thoughts on relapse?   Mary – For some people, it is an important part of their recovery.  I try to accept just this 1 day that I have and not “future trip.”  Relapse can be an important learning tool in recovery.   [33:00 ] Rapid Fire Round What was your worst memory from drinking? leaving that sleeping baby alone when I was 13 and driving around while drinking Did you ever have an “oh-shit” moment? at my daughter’s 16th birthday party, I was too drunk to drive but did anyway.  I hit the curb and flattened my tire. What’s your plan moving forward? keep going to meetings, keep breaking the stigma What’s the best advice you’ve ever received (on sobriety)? keep falling forward, everywhere I go, there I am. What parting piece of guidance can you give listeners who are in recovery or thinking about quitting drinking? Continue to move forward, talk about it, give voice to  your pain You might be an alcoholic if… you take the computer test “Are you and alcoholic,” and focus on your No answers. Resources mentioned in this episode: Recovery Elevator Retreat Connect with Cafe RE- Use the promo code Elevator for your first month free Sobriety Tracker iTunes Sobriety Tracker Android www.southerrunningmom.wordpress.com bmjopen.bmj.com (article on how women millennials are catching up to men in their alcoholism) Sober Selfies! - Send your Sober Selfie and your Success Story to info@recoveryelevator.com     “We took the elevator down, we gotta take the stairs back up, we can do this!”  

Mary Fisk-Taylor and Jamie Hayes are unapologetic: "Everything we do in the studio is geared toward making money."  Jamie is the guy who has always and only worked in Photography. Mary is the former client, now business partner and Photographer. Together they're Hayes & Fisk Photography. Mary and Jamie specialize in highly-personal wedding photography, portraiture, and commercial projects. They also take time to train other Photographers in the business and craft. If you're a portrait Photographer who wants to earn more money, you need to grab a pen and paper for today's conversation! Here's what you can expect: How they dovetail shooting and sales Photographing for the sale The key to a great sale=engagement Steps to a great consultation Effective scheduling for profit--making the photographer and the client happy How is sales a part of marketing? 4 categories of products to sell--and where to put the product you want to sell Partnership marketing & why it's so important. How to do it effectively. Their TX School class: understanding lighting, technical excellence, streamlining lighting & shooting "If your photography looks like everything in your marketplace, the only thing your client can shop you on is PRICE." -Jamie Hayes At one point in the conversation, I ask Mary about the present-day effectiveness of partnership marketing. Does it still work when it seems like everyone is a "photographer?" Here's a clip of her answer, and a tremendous example to follow: ________________ MARY: "It used to be a lot easier, and I think a lot of us are working harder than we've ever worked. But this is the key: as professional photographers--and I'm not being rude--but the true professional photographers; what I can bring to the table, and what I can sell is something nobody else can. So maybe it's not as easy anymore to just go in and say, 'Hey, take my cards and share this,' but I go in with an opportunity for them to be successful as well. So I go into the XYZ Children's Boutique, I can say, 'Hey, this is what we can do. You need social media presence, you know my portraits are beautiful, and you know your clients come in. I send clients to you all the time to buy clothes here, because they're perfect for my portrait work. So what we're going to do is: Every time we photograph your clothing, I'm gonna send those images to your social media coordinator. You're gonna be able to share those on your social media, on your website, and we're gonna have beautiful new and constant images filtering through your social media.' What that store doesn't have is beautiful images of their clothing . . . . But boy, if on a weekly basis I can send 2, 3, 4 beautiful images over to XYZ Boutique--they're loving me!" __________________ Did you enjoy this episode? Tell Mary & Jamie on TWITTER or FACEBOOK. Special thanks to this episode's sponsor:

Do you have time for Jesus? Of the 5 types of people we discuss, which do you most identify with? Do you identify with Joseph and Mary? It wasn't easy or convenient, but they made time for Jesus. Are you like the innkeeper? Do you not...

My friend Mary joins us today on The SHAIR Podcast. At the time of this interview Mary was 5 months pregnant and now 8 months pregnant at the time we are launched this interview. So I hit her up on Facebook real fast to see how the last 3 months have been. Since the interview Mary has been working on getting LCDP certified (licensed chemical dependency professional) to further her substance Abuse treatment career and has received her Tobacco Cessation Certification as well. My good friend Andy, Mary's fiancé, spends months away from home as a merchant marine which has allowed her to accomplish to big mile stones during this absence. So in a nut shell Mary has basically, in her words not mine, been doing lots of training for work, is getting ready for maternity leave, getting really fat (again Mary's words), and more importantly getting ready for our AA baby as she puts it, “We're too Blessed to be Stressed” Andy…Mary…I wish you all the love and happiness in the world and I look forward to see all the beautiful baby pictures, HP Baby! Clean Date: June 23rd, 2014 Here are Mary's SHAIR Podcast interview highlights: The SHAIR podcast YouTube channelOmar: Now, listeners, just a little history, actually. Mary and I met because she is the fiancée of a good friend of mine and she had come down to Costa Rica. They were touring Costa Rica. My wife and I took them out to dinner and Mary told us that she was pregnant. How far along were you at the time when you were in Costa Rica? Mary: I was about seven weeks, so I was really sick and pretty miserable ... It was good. It was a good trip. Omar: Well, you were a trooper because you didn't let my wife and I see you sweat. Mary: Yeah. It's all about putting on your game face, you know? Omar: Oh, absolutely. I get it ... You were just telling me right now before we started about how tough it's been these last few months because your fiance's been gone. Tell us a little bit about how that's been. Mary: Yeah. Well, Andy is a merchant marine. For people who don't know what that is, they work on these big cargo ships that go deliver huge things across the ocean from different countries. He works in the States, so he's in Alaska. He's been gone since Thanksgiving and it's February 7th now, so he comes back in two weeks. It's hard because he hasn't been around. I've been kind of doing this early pregnancy thing by myself, which is a little bit challenging, especially in recovery. Omar: No, I can only imagine. The main reason why I reached out to you is because I was on Facebook and I was reading this post you put up. It just cracked me up. It totally cracked me up. Obviously, I am not a woman, I'll never be pregnant, I'll never get it, all right? It was kind of a cool thing to read. I knew Mary's in recovery, so I was like, "I'm going to reach out to her because I want to get her on the show and discuss what it's like to be pregnant and sober." It can't be that easy. Mary: No, it's definitely has a whole new range of challenges to it. I compare it a lot to early recovery in terms of emotional rawness. There's all sorts of crazy stuff going on, so it's kind of like experiencing something new all over again. Omar: Here are the rules that you're supposed to have for dealing with a pregnant woman, right? Mary: Yeah. Rule 1. Never tell a pregnant woman she looks tired, especially on a Friday. Okay? Rule 2. Never comment on how much weight a pregnant woman has or has not gained. Ever. Mary: No. Rule 3. If you are going to make a comment about a pregnant woman's appearance, a simple "You look great" will do the trick. Rule 4. No uterus, no opinion unless you are the actual creator of the baby. Rule 5. If you tell a pregnant woman she looks tired and she gives you attitude, do not immediately respond with "Wow. Pregnancy hormones, much?" "I can't believe I actually have to post something about this. For all of my friends who have refrained from unsolicited belly touches and commenting about my appearance, you are the real MVPs. Sincerely, a very sassy pregnant Mary." Omar: Does it sound more funny being read back to you? Mary: It kind of does, but actually, all those things were based on real actual experiences that I've had so far in this pregnancy. People have actually said things about each of those rules that have made me make that list.

Coach Mary and her husband had a plan - even though they weren't sure exactly where that plan was taking them. They made the decision to forgo unnecessary vacations and spending their bonuses and lived on less than they earned. After a few years they paid off their last consumer debt and found financial freedom to do whatever they wanted.  Listen to the interview with Mary by clicking the play button above. Steve: Mary, you have a wonderful testimony that I would love to have you share with the audience. Before we get into all of that, tell people who is Mary Hayford. Mary: Thanks for having me, Steve. As a professional, I am a financial coach, and I also teach financial education. I not only do it for work, but we live it in our lives every day. Steve: How do you live it every day? Mary: The first thing we do is we live on less than what we earn; it’s a conscious choice and a conscious decision. This is contrary to what our society dictates to us, but we’ve found it to be a smart choice. Steve: And the reason you did this was to become a millionaire? Mary: I don’t know if it was that clear to us back then; it started when we were in our early 30’s. We had seen many people work for years and years at their jobs, make a lot of money, and be very successful. Unfortunately, these people made the decision to spend everything they made. They spent additional money they made, like bonus checks, raises through the years. They weren’t able to enjoy the fruit of their labors because they weren’t saving anything. They were living month to month, spending everything they earned. It became clear to use that this is not how we wanted to live our own lives; we didn’t want to feel that way after decades of working. Steve: That sounds like the typical American. So what was your end goal here? Mary: The end goal in making the decision to live on less than what we made, and save for our retirement, and have an emergency fund, was that I knew that my current career was not something I wanted to do for the rest of my life. This was the driving force of us getting focused. The first thing this afforded us was to give us options to look at. So many people are in what they consider “dead end” careers that they despise going to every day; once we got out of debt we were able to have the option for me to consider leaving my full time job. It was not possible for us to do this or think about it in a responsible way until we paid off everything. Steve: Most people would call that early retirement, but what you’re going to tell us about is the big life-changing event you guys are working on right now. By being debt free, you’re now about to adopt! Mary: It’s very exciting! I consider myself living out two dreams at once for our family: I stopped working my first career, but I never stopped working all together. My husband and I have always wanted to have children; we felt that somehow, someway it was going to be possible and become real for us. So we continued all throughout our 30s and 40s to search for God’s plan for us to have children. Lo and behold, at ages 51 and 52, we are in the process of adopting two beautiful children. They are sisters age 10 and age 15 Steve: That’s so great!! Would you say that five years ago you knew this was your plan? Mary: No, we didn’t know this was our plan. It was our desire; we are very goal oriented and very patient. We felt that if this was really the true plan that God laid out for our life, then somehow, as long as we kept working toward it in our home life, marriage, and finances, God would allow it to happen. Steve: The point I’m trying to lead to is that you didn’t know that this was your goal, but you continued just living on less than you make in order to get rid of that consumer debt. You’re actually consumer and mortgage debt free, is that correct? Mary: Yes, we are. What you just said is right on. At this stage of our life, in our early 50s, if we were saddled with a lifestyle that we spent everything we made, and if we didn’t have money for retirement, and if we had a big, hefty mortgage payment, bringing two children into our home would not have been a responsible decision that we would have considered. Steve: And your desire was to be able to be home with the kids as much as possible. Mary: I wanted to be able to position myself and our family, that if we were able to bring children into our home, that I was in a career that would allow me the flexibility to be here for the kids. Steve: And you did it!!! Mary: I feel 100% certain that people who are working two full times jobs can still adequately meet the needs of their children, but I am sure however, that without the financial strain of needing two full time incomes has made a difference for us. Steve: Would you caution a person, in their 30s with debt, against adoption? What would the roadblocks be for them? Mary: I wouldn’t caution or deter them, but I would say that some people have felt that adoption wasn’t an option because in many cases adoptions can cost $30K to $40K in a private placement. We are adopting two girls that are in the foster care system and it’s not costing us anything. For people that want to adopt, but are worried about the cost, there are options out there. I encourage people to consider all the options, and not to allow money to be the reason they stop dreaming of having a family of their own. Steve: I’m certainly not an expert on the adoption process, so can you give us an idea of what those options are that you were just referring to? Mary: There are two main ways that people choose to adopt. One would be through a private attorney, either a domestic or international adoption. When you do either of those through a private placement, that necessitates a lot of work on the part of the attorney. The rate for this is about $30K-$40K per child right now. For many families that is not an option; for those that would consider adoption, we have a system here in the US that does not have a good reputation. It is the foster care system. These children have been removed from their homes for one reason or another. When you choose to go this route, you can adopt these children at essentially no cost to you. And children are available from all ages newborn to teenager. I encourage people that if it is your hope and dream to adopt, do your homework and look at your options. Steve: Thanks for coming on to the show. Your testimony is wonderful; I love the idea that you didn’t exactly know what you were going to do, but by living on less than you make and paying off the debt, you have been able to make these choices. Adoption is a wonderful thing for those looking to increase the size of their family. Are there resources that you would like to direct our listeners to, that will help them discover their options? Mary: I tell people to start local. Every municipality has an agency to obtain where they can obtain more information. The second thing I tell people is to check online for the state agency. The third thing is to check online and look at national data base. Keep looking until you can connect with an agency and a child that you can work with and bring in as part of your family.