Podcasts about mary you

How do conversation skills make your podcast process more enjoyable? Even if we're lucky enough to “do what we love,” work tends to have tedious aspects we don't like. Craig Constantine is a passion podcaster who, through the creation of thousands of episodes and rigorous reflection, has built a workflow that simplifies every step of his method, from prep to publication. A consummate conversationalist, Craig's overarching goal is to use understanding and compassion to have exciting exchanges that inspire listeners to dive directly into meaningful dialogues. In this episode, he gets into the nitty-gritty of the personal process that led him to discover his devotion to podcasting. Let Craig's passion inspire you to: Understand the difference between compassion and empathy in conversation Consider why you might not want to bring your prepared questions into the conversation Approach AI tools to create the perfect research assistant Simplify your process to make it more fun in the long run Links worth mentioning from the episode: Listen to Episode 51, Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning with Stephanie Fuccio - https://www.organizedsound.ca/honing-your-podcast-voice-though-second-language-learning-with-stephanie-fuccio-episode-51/ Engage with Craig: Keep on top of what Craig is up to - https://craigconstantine.com/current-projects/ Learn more about Craig's podcasting mission - https://openandcurious.org/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voicemail with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Transcript with Audio Description: CRAIG: Oh, no pressure. But thank you so much for inviting me. You get the prize for, of all the people who ever asked me to be on their show, you're the one who worked the hardest. So thank you so much for that. > MARY: A lot of logisticals behind the scene, and, you know, personal schedules and stuff. CRAIG: You actually hunted me down. You asked me through a service that we're both on, and I totally ghosted you, like a lot of people. And then you went and found my website and found my contact form and emailed me, and I'm like, wow, all right, this person is motivated. Yes, I want to be on the show. MARY: Well, what you do is intentional practice of conversations, and I think that is so unique because a lot of people find podcasting as like, oh, I can talk, I'll just plug a microphone in and start talking. > But what is intentional conversation? Why is it so important to you? CRAIG: Well, it's important to me because I found myself having more and more really great conversations, and that's like a whole separate story. And the more that I learned how to shut up and listen, which took me longer than it should have, the more I shut up and listened, the more I enjoyed the conversations and the more other people seemed to enjoy them. And then the people lurking around it enjoyed them too.  So I started wondering, well, this isn't new. Humans have been doing this for a long time. And the more that I looked into it, now I have a books problem. You know, like, oh, here's a book from 150 years ago where somebody had all these things. And then I started having conversations that I was intentionally picking challenging guests. Not that the people were challenging, but, like, I have no knowledge about the topic we're going to have this conversation about, then, what would the skills be that I would need to have that be a good conversation when I'm totally floundering every second of the way?  And I'm like an autodidact nerdy self learner. So it works well for me to be like, whoa, that sucked. That was horrible. And then I, like, write down, why did suck? What was wrong with it? How could I make it better? So I'm always preaching, like, you know, take notes and reflect, um, on your conversations, reflect on your life in general, and figure out, could I try something different next time? Or maybe that just, it happened. The bird flew into my head. That, that went weird. MARY: So then what do you need then to have a conversation? Because, you know, you were saying, I stopped talking, so I listened. But when people think of dialogue, well, you gotta talk. So how do you define that art of conversation? CRAIG: That's a really hard question. That's two different questions. How do I define the art of conversation? I'm gonna ignore how I define it. That's hard. I would say that you actually, you don't really have to talk for it to be a good conversation. And a lot of times when I'm having conversations with people, they are already aware of my, my issues of, like, wanting to dig into the meta.  But even when I'm talking to people who don't know anything at all about me, they have an agenda and the real question is, when you're having a conversation with someone, is the other person aware of their own agenda? That's really, like, determines are we going to have a spectacular conversation. So Mary has ideas about where this conversation is supposed to go, ideas about what she wants the two of us to find here for the people who are listening. So that's like the biggest switch or choice. Like, when I'm having a conversation with someone, I'm, as best I can, always intentional about why I'm here, what I'm saying, why I'm saying, and I'm always curious, like, what is the other person thinking when they started talking? Were they just talking at me because they haven't seen me in a week, or are they really interested in something?  So that's like, the first thing is like, are both people on the same page about what does it mean to have a good conversation? Some people, they just talk. I'm not saying that's bad. It's just, you know, that's a deli conversation that's going to be a little more shallow maybe, or a little different. MARY: Yeah. What about then in the role of podcasting? That being intentional piece, do you then prep your questions and you have your set questions, or do you allow that conversation to unfold? Because, like you said, everyone's got an agenda. CRAIG: Yes. It depends on what you mean by you. So if you mean, does Craig? I generally don't write down my questions anymore in the very, very beginning, which would be like 2017. So I was kind of late to the party, but when I started, yes, I used to be intentional about, the show was all about movement, I would be intentional about, I'm going to talk to this person because I have this question or this story I want to know. And I would write down my questions, and I would imagine, like if I wasn't thinking story arc, but I was kind of imagining a story arc about, I want to start here and then I want to go here, and I want to end over there if I can.  So in the beginning, yes, I totally did that. And I got heavily involved in coaching podcasters. I've literally helped thousands of people as an assistant coach in courses. And that's a very good question for people to ask. So I say yes, in the beginning, write literally, preferably with a pencil, not like typing on your computer, because writing is different than typing.  MARY: Yeah,  CRAIG: Write your questions out in whatever your chicken scratch looks like. And then when you get to the recording, don't bring your notes. That's what I tell people, because the notes will distract you. I have a blank piece of paper on the table in front of me just in case I need to write something down. But when you go into those recordings as the host, all of that homework that you did, you're not going to forget it. It's going to be in the back of your head.  So I would say yes, I used to write things down, and I do recommend that that's a great place to start. And then eventually I can hold the questions in my head for weeks. I think about someone, you know, and I listened to one of your episodes as I was preparing for this, and I had, oh, that's interesting. And I see the kinds of things that Mary is attracted to, and I feel like I have enough things in my head that I could, I don't want to, but we could probably flip this around, and I could probably, you know, be the host if I had to, but I don't want to. > That's, if you ask Craig, how Craig does it, how does everybody else do it? I don't think people write their questions down based on what I hear, When I hear people. MARY: Certain shows, there are some shows where it's like, bam, bam, bam, question, question. There was, like, no follow up. And I feel like, yeah, that's not good either. CRAIG: Right. That's the other problem. That's the opposite of prepared. MARY: Yeah, exactly. So then if you don't write your questions, it feels a lot to me, too, about when I worked in radio, we called this show prep. You know, it's all about being prepared and kind of knowing, like you said, that agenda. But having the follow up questions are the sparks in that conversation. So do you then, have, like, a toolbox of ways to guide a conversation, or like,...  CRIAG: Oh yeah. MARY: …those. Oh yeah? Yeah. Okay, What is that?  CRAIG: So there's a whole bunch of them, and rather than try to rattle them off, but just kind of, like, paint kind of what they are. MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: I have these ideas in mind about, I have a visual, I live, like, 2 hours from Manhattan, so I've been there a bunch of times. And if you ever walk down Broadway is, like, the biggest street, you can walk the whole length of the place. I imagine that in conversations, I'm walking with someone.  So if I'm talking with someone and something strange happens, like, they ask me a question that I wasn't expecting, or they give me a strange answer, or they stopped, like, something weird happens. I'm imagining they, like, turned left into a side street. And my reaction needs to be not, wait, where are you going? Yeah, come back. My reaction needs to be, well, that's interesting. And follow, like, go with them. So I'm always trying to listen, air quoting is useless, you can't even see. I'm trying to listen not only to the words that they're saying, but the emotions that they're conveying. The emotions maybe they're trying to convey, which could be different, and try to imagine what is the experience that that person is having.  So I'm always yammering about my mission is about creating better conversation to spread understanding and compassion and empathy is close, but I think empathy is a thing that might come later after understanding and compassion. And I feel like that is what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to deploy understanding and compassion as a tool.  So in a conversation, when something weird happens, I'm thinking, do I understand? Like, that's my first thought is, do I really understand what just happened here? Like, maybe I don't understand and I should ask a question about what just happened here. So I have, like, lots of nerdy tools that I can bring up, but they all fit in that toolbox of my first, you know, do I understand? And then, am I being compassionate? Is this person freaking out because Craig's too energetic for them? Like, that happens to people. I understand. MARY: You mentioned empathy, and I feel like empathy is very similar to compassion. CRAIG: Yes. MARY: So how do you differentiate that? CRAIG: The way that I think of it is that empathy is about the feeling and compassion is about, I don't want to say doing something about it, but imagining what could be done, either generally or that I should be doing. So, empathy, if you're empathic and you can't distance yourself from that, that's really hard. That's people who, like, if the elections go bad and then they have, like, a nervous breakdown, I'm like, well, okay, I mean, you're feeling for those other people, but you really need to be able to control that. You have to have boundaries. You have to be able to protect yourself physically and emotionally.  So, empathy, I think of as like, a feelers reaching out, sensitivity. And even I would say I'm pretty empathic. But even if you're really empathic, you really never know. You really can't say, I know what you're feeling, but that would be the goal, would be to feel outward. And then the compassion is, all right if I understand what's going on and I have some empathy for the person, the situation, or whatever we're talking about, then I might, if I'm a compassionate person, I might begin to imagine, is there something I could do about that? Could I help that person pick up whatever they dropped? Or could I donate money to this charity? Or could I help push this car out of a snowbank? That's the kind of thing that I do because I'm a large guy, you know.  But if you didn't have empathy for the person who was stuck in the snowbank, you'd just be like, sucks to be you. And you'd walk right by, you know? So that's why when I wrote my mission. That's why I wrote compassion rather than empathy, because I feel like empathy, I don't want to say it's easier, but I felt like I already had enough empathy and I wanted to work on the compassion part. So very, the mission is very specific to me, of course. MARY: What about then, if you're in a conversation with someone and you don't agree? CRAIG: That depends on why I'm in the conversation. So I don't do journalistic interviews, just because it's not my cup of tea. But I've listened to a lot of journalists talk about their process. And, yeah, if you're a journalist and you're supposed to be getting facts or truth or you're trying to, you know, uncover a particular story, if people say something you disagree with, you need to push back, and you can push back nicely. You can ask clarifying questions. You can, you know, throw in juxtapose. I thought it was X. You can make jokes. There are ways to reveal questions without actually asking questions, which then lets the two of us stand in one place and point at the question over yonder without it getting very antagonistic.  So there are things you can do to sort of direct, or in this case, redirect the conversation where you hope it would go. But that's not normally what I do because I'm not a journalist looking for something I don't have, like a target I'm aiming for, which kind of cuts both ways. Not having a target makes it harder because I think it would be easier if I knew where I was supposed to be going. So I don't often find myself in situations where, no, that's wrong, and I need to get you to tell me the other thing, so.  MARY: Yeah, it's just a matter of, okay, yes, you've said what you've said now. Oh, I'm going to ask you this question to, to redirect. CRAIG: Yeah, ask more questions. Ask different questions. You were asking for about tools earlier. I sometimes talk about people's salience, the word salience. Humans are spectacular at noticing salience. I always say I'm afraid of three kinds of snakes, little snakes, big snakes, and any stick that looks anything at all like a snake. So snake fear and, like, falling. These are wired in.  So there are other things, in conversations when you're listening to someone and you have an agenda and a story arc and a plan, and your brain suddenly goes, wait, what? And, like, it grabs these two things. The thing that you thought you were going to ask about and the thing that just lit you up, you have these two. Those things are related. I'm telling you, they are. That's what your brain just went, these are related. And you could just say, I wonder if these two things are related. You can just say that I do that and give people two, you know, like cheese and sneakers, and people will go, huh, that's a really good question. And then they'll think about it, and it's.  Conversations are just people sharing ideas. There's no rules about my ideas have to follow logically and clearly from the last. It can be whatever two people want to share. So I really feel like people, like I've said, I've seen a lot of people do this. A lot of people take courses and say, how do I do interviews? They really undervalue this magical, I don't want to say device, because your brain's not a computer, but, like, this magical power that you have about identifying the things that light you up. That already works. So that's probably what your podcast is about. If you have a day job as a journalist, then you got to work a little harder, because now you have to. You have to aim those tools at a specific. My producer said, I must do X. MARY: Yes. CRAIG: Just a little harder. MARY: Yeah. Like you were saying we're not computers, right? This. This isn't an AI interview. CRAIG: Whew, good. MARY: You know, we are humans. We have emotion. We have feelings in our bodies that will then guide us to. Okay, what is that curiosity piece? What is that follow up question? CRAIG: Why am I upset all of a sudden? MARY: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, like, go with that feeling in your body and make sure that, you say it out loud. CRAIG: Yeah. A lot of times, just naming the thing goes a long way toward helping both parties understand, because sometimes people say something and, you know, somebody's triggered, and if you're really good at hiding that, well, that's not helping anybody. I mean, maybe if you're really triggered, you're trying to leave the space. Okay. But if it's the kind of thing that can be discussed, people can't read minds. I used to make that error a lot. I'm like, the other person opposite me is fuming. And I don't know. MARY: Yep. You can still hear it in their voice, even though you can't see them fuming. Like in the podcasting world. CRAIG: Yeah. Audio is magical. MARY: Yeah. Is magical that way, for sure.  Let's move into a little bit with your podcasting journey. You have two active shows right now. Even one show is a lot, like, how. How do you manage all of this? CRAIG: Oh, I actually have. Well, if you want to count accurately, I have five active shows.  MARY: You have five active, oh geeze.  > CRAIG: Okay. All right. So how do I manage it? I have a pride problem. I love, you know, shiny things. I love to go after them.  So the very first show that I created, I did not set out to make a podcast. I didn't say, I want to become a podcaster. This is the thing I want to do. I was literally having cool conversations in movement spaces. I would be out, like, in London running and jumping and playing with people at an event or doing a thing, and then I'm the kind of person who just walks up to someone and says, whoever they are, oh, hey, and we start talking.  And then I turn around, there's people walking behind us because I'm talking to somebody semi-famous. And then they say, you should have recorded that. I would have listened to that. That's literally how I got into podcasting. Then I was like, well, I guess I should get some SM58 mics and a little interface. I just started basically pressing record on conversations that I was having. So I'm super lucky, super privileged that that happened to me.  So that's how I started into it in 2017. And I did, like, 40 episodes with no clue what I was doing. Just like, you know, like, I don't know, let's try this. I had a friend who knew how to edit. I'm like, hey Brian, and he's like, use this mic and get this interface. And, you know, like, people just giving me tips. And I went about, like, 35 or 40 episodes along. And then I took a course. And I took the course not, and it's. It was a sofa, I call it sofa to 5K. I had a podcast course, and I already knew all that. I had 40 episodes out. MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: But I wanted to completely tear it apart, and I did. I took it all apart, and I, like, changed the descriptions, and the course made me think about things differently. It was one of the greatest things I ever did. And I met a whole bunch of people who were passionate about podcasting. That was the third time they ran the course. I went back as an assistant coach for 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11, for the runnings of the course, till they stopped the course.  And along the way, I kept having more ideas. So the first show was, I was having conversations. People wanted to hear them. But the next show which came out, I was like, I wonder what would happen if you did a daily podcast. That was just me for 30 seconds reading a quote every day and didn't tell anybody. Just, like, stealth launched the thing. So I did 1,400 episodes of that show.  And then while that show was going on, I started a podcasting community, and I started interviewing the other podcasters in the community and working my way up with, like, who should I talk to after I did a show? And that show was all about podcasting.  So once I fell backwards into it and figured out how to do it, then it became this. Like, I imagine painters might just, oh, I got a paint. They run to the easel and they start painting. And, like, I do that with podcasting. I, like, I run to the microphone and I start making. Or I get people and I make a recording. So that's how I wound up with all these shows. It's really not any harder to have five shows. It's just, how many episodes are you doing? That's all that really matters. MARY: Yes. CRAIG: So, uh, you also, I haven't forgotten, you asked me, how do I do it? But if you want to follow up on that before I tell you how I do it. Or I can just tell you how I do it. MARY: Yeah, how do you do it? CRAIG: How do I do it? I'm a checklist and process nerd. So I have, for every one of the shows, I have a separate document that I maintain that tells me every detail. Like, this is the, you get an e nine minor guitar chord, goes here as the music bumper, and then the intro, and it has every step all the way through to emailing the guests at the end to say, thank you, your show is published. Here's the, you know, please share.  And if you do ten of those, then you'll be editing your list. And then the list gets a little more detailed. And eventually, all of the things that used to make me get stuck, I don't want to do the editing. I'm, I don't like editing. Oh, I don't want to do the show notes. All these things that I get stuck on. I just kept making it simpler. What's the simplest thing that could possibly work? And that's what I, and I broke it down to more and more steps until, when I look at the checklist, I have an episode that you go out sometime this week, and the next checkbox is so easy. I'm like, you know, I could totally do that, that I could do that.  And that's. That was how I broke it down, was to just make it simple enough that I could find a simple next step for whatever was going on. And then the checklist helped me remember. So if I'm not doing anything for three weeks. When I come back. Oh, right, here's where I was. Here's how I start, here's how I finish. MARY: What's an example of making it simpler? What does that mean? CRAIG: So we were talking about AI before. I use ChatGPT to write the episode notes. Shhh. I say that at the bottom, I wrote, written with, actually, it's written with help from ChatGPT. MARY: Yes. I was just going to say, I like that you have it written down. CRAIG: I'm a computer nerd, but I'm not an AI. Like to me, I was like everybody else, a what? How do you work this? I had no clue. But I have a checklist that helps me prompt the AI to give me what I want. So just like little nuances of sentences, like I'm resisting urge to open it up and read them, but it's like these really detailed, like, I want, say, I want one sentence to be the hook sentence for the thing that might be like 120 word paragraph that I've slowly fiddled with and kept in a document.  So now when I learn what the hook sense, that it's like copy, paste, and it actually says, write me five variations of a sentence and then it tells it what to do and then it writes me five sentences and I look at them and none of them are good enough. But somebody, once I forget where this comes from, somebody said, working with AI fixes the blank page problem, so you should totally use it for everything because it will do a terrible job and you will rush to fix it's work. And it gets me going every time.  So like, I rush and I'm like, no, no, you cannot use the word delve. No, no, no, edit the sentence, right? And then I edit my instructions and I say, you may not use the word delve. Put that in the instructions. So now when I have to write episode notes for like, say, a 15 minute conversation, I'm like, I can do that in 3 minutes. Watch this. > And I'm all done, you know, copy and paste and, and I have to edit, you know, like everybody has their personal writing style. I don't bother to try and make it do my style. I just edit the thing. I look at the paragraph and I go, hey, I don't like this part. Edit it. And then at the bottom I just write, written with help from ChatGPT.  I tell everybody who asks, like podcasters. It's like having the greatest research assistant. This person is tireless. They have infinite patience. No matter how many dumb questions I ask, they're just like, here's your answer. You can, like, just ghost them for two weeks, come back, they pick up right where you left off without a single. As long as you realize it's really more about, I think of it like the first stage on the rocket launch. Get me moving, get me off the ground here so I can get a feel for what this thing is supposed to be. And that's what I use it for. MARY: What about not AI? What can you make simpler? That has nothing to do with AI, because that's what everybody's talking about these days. CRAIG: I stopped editing my shows. How about that one? If you've listened to, so the one show is called Movers Mindset is 170 episodes. I think Podtalk is at 150 or something like that. And basically the last hundred plus maybe 150 episodes on those two shows that I've released. I don't edit the audio.  Now, full disclosure, I'm actually hard of hearing. I have hearing aids and crappy hearings. I'm a terrible audio editor to begin with, but I also can't afford to pay ninety cents a minute to edit all this stuff. So I went, well, what if I had a conversation that was so good, there wasn't anything that had to be cut out? How would you do that? Yes, and then work on that for 300 conversations. I've done about 500 recorded conversations for my shows, for other shows, not counting my guesting appearances. And every time I do them, I listen back and I'm like, why did I say that? Why didn't I shut up? > Because a lot of times the guest is about to say the great thing, and I'm still like, wait, you got to hear me. It's like, no, I'm the host. Shut up.  So I've looked at, like, exactly what percentage of myself, when I'm the host, do I want in the audio? The answer is 25%. I want one quarter Craig and three quarters of the guest. And I occasionally drop that into Otter, which will give you a percentage speaker rating. And I make sure I'm at the target number that I want. And if I'm over or under, then I think about that for my next conversation.  So, if you don't want to edit, could you just make the conversations better? Could you screen out people who are poor speakers unless you really need them? Like, there can be issues sometimes. I won't really want to guess because I want that representation. I really want this voice to be heard of. So I'm willing to live with thumbs and aahs and pauses. Just put it out raw you know, edit the levels, run the anti white noise background thing, 30 seconds. I mean, sometimes I'm, I have a 45 minutes conversation. It takes me five minutes to go from raw audio to mp3, final mix down, including the time it takes my Mac to make the mp3. It's, you know, because otherwise I wouldn't get it done if I didn't cut that corner.  And there are other ones, like, I stopped doing introductions in the guest. Like, I never, when I'm recording, I never ask the guest to tell me who they are. Tell us, no, that's a disaster. And I don't. I don't read that in anymore for a while. I would open the show by saying, oh, my guest today is. I skipped all that. I got tired of recording intros and outros because I actually don't think people listen to them. So I skip them. My show opens, and I say, Hello, I'm Craig Constantine. There's like a sentence or two of what the show is. And then I asked the guest the first question, and we just have a conversation. There are other things about, oh, I can only do so much social media. So I have a WordPress plugin. I hit a button, and it just posts the three platforms. And then I'm like, good enough. Yep. I'm not making short form. I figured out how to do YouTube auto load from RSS. Good enough. MARY: Done. Yes. CRAIG: Moving on. I just looked at every single thing on the list that was in my head, and I went, this is stressing me out. Write it down. And then when I looked at the list written down, I identified, I can't do this. This is too much. I want to have hundreds, thousands of great conversations, and I don't want to do all these pieces. So delete pieces until I only want to do the part between record and stop and anything else that I absolutely have to, to make the show go out. MARY: And I think that's the difference, too, between people who are podcasting as a passion, like you do, or those who are like, I need to generate income, so I have to do X, Y, and Z, right? So it's like talking about that agenda piece. You were, you were saying at the very beginning, it's like, what is your goal for your podcast? So what would you define as success, then, for your podcast? CRAIG: Oh. Sometimes people can read each other's minds. I was listening to some of your shows, and that's a question you ask often because it's super important. And I'm like, this would be the spot where we need to talk about what Craig thinks success is.  Success, in my opinion, for my shows is so for the two shows that have guests, if somebody listens to an episode and then they manage to email in real life, whatever, talk to the guest and they can skip over the parts that make conversations suck and go right to the good part. That's the definition of success for my show.  So one of the shows is all about parkour and has french names and all these things, and there's people who run and jump and play all over the world, and everybody's pretty famous that I'm talking to. If they, somebody runs into that person and says, hey. And just goes right to the part of the conversation where both of them are enjoying it. Not, my guest, who's semi famous is like, oh, another fan. But where the fan comes up and says something and that person goes, oh, yeah, I'd love to talk about that.  Like, that's my definition of success. People listen to the episodes that I did, and that enables them to have a better conversation with that person, even if it's just email or, you know, direct messaging or whatever. That may be a weird definition of success, but it turns out to be hard to do that. But it only means I have to have a certain kind of conversation. It doesn't mean that I have to advertise or, you know, kill myself in editing, I hope. > MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: That nobody listens. MARY: That's always the podcaster problem.  CRAIG: Yeah. MARY: Nobody's listening. CRAIG: Well, there's only one problem and lots of problems. MARY: So what are some other problems that you have with podcasting? CRAIG: Uh, I spend too much time on it. Spend too much time on it. It's like I have an embarrassment of riches. So I understand. I'm not claiming this is weird, but I understand why people say they're nervous about reaching out to guests. I do not have that problem. I'm a computer nerd. I have something like 600 guests. I'm not exaggerating in queues. And I wrote software that mails me weekday mornings that suggests, you know, you mailed this person three weeks ago and they never got back to you, so you probably should message them again. Like, I wrote software to keep track of all that, so that I can just turn the crank. I do the fun part, which is, new email, Hey, Bob, would you like to be on the show? Or like that kind of thing?  People mention a guest to me and I put it in a certain little config file, and I don't forget, two years later, it comes up. And then when I look at the notes, I know who recommended them. And maybe I, maybe they said, I'd really like to hear them talk about X. Like, I figured out a way to capture that stuff. You can do it with pieces of paper or excel spreadsheet, whatever you like.  I think a lot of the struggle with guest outreach is in it's just an infinite number of threads. Like, it's complex, and it's always going to be complex. Don't put your friends into customer relationship management software. That doesn't make it better. So I just figured out, well, what would this have to be for me to enjoy doing this?  So I have, the other problem is, if I turn that crank, if I start messaging people, I can do like five touches in a day in like ten minutes, because I just send an email, send a thing, go to whatever platform they're on. You do that for a few days, then people start showing up in your calendar. And like, that's the other side is make sure people can schedule themselves in using Calendly or something.  If I'm not careful, all of a sudden it takes about two to three weeks. Three weeks out, all of a sudden it's like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I have all these podcast recordings scheduled. And even if I say one show per day, I can still wind up with two or three on one day because I have multiple shows. > That's my problem. I removed all of the sticky points, and I really wasn't paying attention to that means it's all going to go really fast. So I have to like, woah, slow down and try to keep it under control. MARY: Wow, you definitely have a very unique challenge. > CRAIG: Nice choice of words that you're going to say, that's very special. MARY: Earlier you were talking about, you got a lot of advice. You give advice about podcasting. So what was one advice that you got that did, you know, good. You're like, you know what, this is an advice that's out in the podcasting space, don't follow it. CRAIG: Oh, well, it's, uh, a similar version of that. Question is, what's something I disagree with that everybody else would be mad at me, and that's that you have to publish on a schedule. That's the piece of advice that I patently, I started on that at one point, I had a show that was all over the map, and I actually had hired someone to work on my team. I said, job one, get me on a schedule, which meant get the guest work and all that stuff. And I got on a schedule and I published every week for like a year and a half. I have completely given up, I don't care about, I don't care about schedules. So I said, like, mary, when was my last episode put out? MARY: I'd have to look, I don't know. CRAIG: Right? I mean, even if you went and listened, it's okay if you didn't. I don't think Craig is that interesting. But, even if somebody goes and listens to one of my shows, thing they look at is not the publication date. They go to the chronological list. They want to listen to the most recent one. Maybe they scroll back and listen to the trailer, or maybe they search for a word.  So I think that the advice to get yourself on a schedule. Okay. If it's your first episode, yes. Get on a schedule for five or ten or something, seven. But have it in your mind that you're planning on getting off the schedule, or you're at least planning on slowing way down. Because weekly, if you're. If you're, like, a one man band, and if you're doing things by all by yourself, weekly is insane. MARY: Oh, yeah. CRAIG: Even if it's hostile, weekly is like the treadmill. So I, I think that's the advice that it's super useful if someone is literally starting out on the sofa to 5K journey of podcasting. Yes. You need to imagine how do I, because it teaches you to close the loop. If I start here and I got to do all these steps, and I got to be done by next week, because I got to do it all over again, and then you start to think, oh, can I do the guest outreach in parallel? So I was working multiple guests, could I work ahead? So I got one or two in the can I. It teaches you those things. But then once you learn those lessons, then let go of having to publish on a schedule is my advice that I think didn't serve me because I took the course and people said that, and I was at 40, and I was like, yeah, I already want to get off this. > MARY: Get off this, because it is a lot of work and a lot of pressure on yourself to make sure it goes out at a certain day and time. CRAIG: Yeah. And, like, your die hard listeners, I've had people talk about. We talk about feedback and hearing from your fans. I've had people come up to me at, like. Like, I bump into them in person, and they talk about the show, and I've had people say to me, I can't keep up. Like, sometimes they drop, like, three or four in one week, and people are like, what are you doing? I can't listen to all this. It's too much content. MARY: That is a lot! CRAIG: Well, it is, but from my side, it's not. And I just had. It was a 30, 40 minutes conversation. I had a blast. It was awesome. And then I blasted through the post production, right? Sometimes I'm done, and if I'm really flying, I can be done in 45 minutes. I hit stop. The guest hasn't even, like, finished with their. You know, and I'm like, I'm done. It's crazy. MARY: So wait, why not then? Wait. Like, okay, if you've got this back, not back log. Like, then why not schedule? CRAIG: Because then the next week, I did three more, and then the next week I did three. Was like, well, there's another scheduled to, you know, never. And I also. I felt bad sometimes. I don't know, there's something about it. Everybody says, you always love all of your children the most. And every one of them, when I'm done with them, I'm like, that's the best thing I've ever created that has to go out right now.  It's part of my drive to make and do and create. And I feel like when I hit stop, I'm doing a disservice. I'm sitting on something I shouldn't be sitting on. And I have had some weird situations where I had some that I sat on for, like, ten months because I get nervous about that. Like, why isn't this done, well, because I can't get a transcript from the thing. I got stuck on details.  So, I really just love. I don't know, I love the feeling of, wow, I had a great conversation, and now everybody else can hear it with as little time between those two statements as I can get. MARY: Okay then, I'm checking out the time. Like, I had scheduled a certain amount of time with you, but then it got me thinking, then, do you schedule, like, a certain amount of time, or do you just let this conversation go? Because, like, I think I can talk to you for hours, right? And I literally mean that, you know, people say that on shows, but, you know, there has to be an end. CRAIG: Oh, I guess this is like a whole nother show. Okay, so I will say, yeah, you got 60 seconds before the time you allotted. However, I do not have a hard stop. So you could, if you want to record a second shows worth of material, knock yourself out.  Here's what I will say. People often ask if they're. If they're good podcasters, it occurs to them to ask, how do I have a good ending to my conversation? How do I have a good ending to my show, if I have a host and guest situation, and I always say, well, the first thing you can do is cross off anything that you know that won't work.  So, if you want to have a good ending, do not stop when the show sucks. > Right? So the friction and this is good. You always want to feel this as a host when you're on your show. This is great. This is where we should stop when you feel that tension of, this is awesome because people are going to slap their headphones off and go, that was awesome. And they're going to be like, they're going to go talk to somebody about the show or they're going to share it or whatever.  I mean, maybe don't stop right in the middle of an idea. But that part where we all want to go, wow, that was great. Now what do I ask? Oh, wait, there's more, Mary, let's talk about that. Don't do that. Just go, that was awesome. Thanks so much, Mary. It was a pleasure talking to you today. And hit stop. Hit stop when you're going is great, and you'll be good. Then there are a couple other little tips. Conversations go in, I call them saccades, not cicadas, the insect. Saccades, is a reference to how you move your eyes when you're reading. I don't know if people talk about cicadas in conversation, but, um, I'm doing it. There's a saccade to conversation. It's follow the bouncing ball, and it's about 20 minutes per hop on a conversation. MARY: I've heard about that. Yeah, yeah. CRAIG: And you might need to do people going, what? You might need to do a few hundred conversations to get out your metrics and look at the things. And what happens is, if you just let that bouncing ball go, you can't really stop at 30 if you're in the middle of a bounce and you can't really stop at the 20 minutes because that's the sucky part in the middle where you need to have a follow up question to get us back to the >.  So that's another thing is to understand, like, as a host on your show, understand some of the dynamics of conversation. Have your, have your conceptual head only if you can manage it. Only half in the show, half out of the show, watching the clock, knowing what you wrote that you wanted to get to, that you haven't got to yet. So, you know, oh, I have to get this one more thing. The next bounce of the saccade is going to be this. If you can manage to stay out. That's hard. Then that lets you have some of that. You know, you can have your head. You like old gopher, you know, like you stand up, you look around a little bit. Okay, let's go back into the next 20 minutes. So that's the, those are the things that I think about when I'm trying to figure out where to stop.  Really. Just don't stretch. You get to the end and it's awesome, and somebody says something profound, just say, that was awesome. MARY: That was awesome, Craig. CRAIG: But I did it on purpose.  MARY: I know. CRAIG: But, like, it's tough to do that when you're ahead. When you're really as a host, if you're having an awesome conversation, you get completely lost. That's good tape. MARY: So, yeah, that is. But I always end my show with the same question, and I'm going to let you go. So my last question for you is, what are you excited about podcasting right now? CRAIG: I totally should have prepared for that because I heard that what am I excited about podcasting? Well, in case people couldn't tell, I'm not excited about anything. I'm really excited about more people are starting to want to talk to me about conversation, and that's great because that means that I'm either, well I'm going to say I'm not doing something offensive. At least it means that things aren't going badly pessimistic.  So I'm really excited about having the chance. It's been happening more often to have conversations like this, where the whole thing is very meta about conversation. So that's really kind of makes me want to start another show. > I'm going to do more of this, but I'm not going there. So that's what I'm going to say. I'm really excited about and getting back, I was mentioning before I was sick, so I'm, like, on a pause at the moment. So I'm excited to get back to having more conversations, but it's really. I feel like I'm getting more interest in talking about talking. MARY: Yeah, I think that's what we need, because it's that human connection that we're all craving, you know? CRAIG: Oh, yeah. MARY: So thank you so much for this human connection with me and for the conversation. > CRAIG: My distinct pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. MARY: Thanks so much, Craig. I love the enthusiasm in his voice and for the work that he does. And, you know, during the conversation, he mentioned saccades and following the bouncing ball. I love that he brought up how conversations cycle through around 20 minutes, and we talked about this before, actually, in a previous episode with Steph Fuccio in number 51, we talked about Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning, and Steph had done similar research as well. She mentioned that same phenomenon around 20 minutes for a conversation. So if you want to revisit that episode number 51, the link is in the show notes.  So after listening to this conversation, what advice would you take from Craig's podcasting journey for your own show? Now, like I said on the show in the beginning, his podcast is a passion project and his success is not going to be the same as your success. So we're not saying you need to follow what he is doing. Like the way how he doesn't schedule. Scheduling is important to some people because it provides them structure and to make sure they do things so that they go out. Craig's really great at finding out what works for him, so I hope this episode makes you think about what could potentially really work for you. It's his idea of making things simpler. That's what he found works for him. But what does that mean for you?  Send me a voice note with your feedback at VisibleVoicePodcast.com. you'll find the purple button that says send voicemail. From there, click on that, send me your feedback, and let me know what would be simpler for your podcasting workflow. Or as always, you can email me as well VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com.  On the next episode we're talking voice tips. How do we embrace our voice as a tool? We think of podcasting as an easy thing to do where you can plug in your microphone and just start talking, but it's not as easy as that. We'll explore more of your voice next time. > > >

Join us in this episode of the Class E Podcast as we dive into the extraordinary journey of Callie Goodwin, the mastermind behind a thriving greeting card company born out of the challenges of the pandemic. From a humble start during quarantine to becoming a household name on TikTok, Callie shares her inspirational story of turning isolation into innovation. With her background in education and social work, Callie's path to entrepreneurship was unexpected but undeniably rewarding. Tune in to discover how she navigated obstacles like funding shortages and leveraged the power of social media to skyrocket her business. From viral TikTok campaigns to unexpected partnerships, Callie's journey is a testament to the resilience and creativity of small business owners everywhere. Join us as we explore the highs, the lows, and the invaluable lessons learned along the way. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking inspiration, practical tips, and a glimpse into the limitless possibilities of entrepreneurship in the digital age. Guest: Callie Goodwin. Founder Sparks of Joy   Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez    Transcript: MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host, Mary Sturgil. This podcast is brought to you in partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And today we have a very special guest…you may know her from Tik Tok and some Tik Tok ads. It's Callie Goodwin, who is the founder of the greeting card company, Sparks of Joy. Callie, welcome to our show. CALLIE: Hi! Thank you so much for having me.  MARY: Callie, I want to start with… Do you remember the first time that we met in person? Because we've known each other for a while though. CALLIE: It's been quite a while. I was helping film in Columbia. I don't know what year it was. But it's been quite a while. MARY: It's been at least seven years probably. Yeah. Yeah. I was still in news. I was still a news anchor. And Callie had this drone and I was you know me, I'm a gadget girl. And so I went up to her and I was like, oh, show me what you're doing. Like we were just talking off air that we were flying drones and we didn't really know any of the rules back then. So we just flew them all over the place. CALLIE: I look back now and I'm like, Ooh, yeah, we were definitely breaking some rules then. But honestly before… it was still the wild wild west of drones.  MARY: You were on the cutting edge then and now you're on the cutting edge again. That's your life.  CALLIE: I like to live on the edge. MARY: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So tell us a little bit about Sparks of Joy for people who might not have seen your TikTok ad because your TikTok ad… I say TikTok ad guys but it is all over TV right now. CALLIE: Yeah, so Sparks of Joy started as a pre stamped greeting card company in the middle of the pandemic. I bought a house the summer 2020, moved in, was exposed to COVID had to quarantine and during that two weeks was going stir crazy. Neighbor dropped off a handwritten card and some brownies. And that handwritten card like really kind of sparked this idea of like, I want to send out cards out with my new address like I finally have an address on my own. But I realized that I didn't know what boxes my cards were in. And I didn't have any stamps. And so I used that two week quarantine period to start a business. I design all my own cards. And then we pre stamp the cards so that our customers don't have to or don't have to try to track down stamps at the post office so it has grown I started my TikTok right as I started my business and now it's grown into this massive account and this like really cool opportunity to partner with TikTok on these things. And I never would have dreamed that this loneliness of my brand new house would have turned into this three years later. MARY: Right and so the…let's back up a little bit and talk about your education because everything that you've done in your education so far is geared toward education. For kids right? CALLIE: So I thought I wanted to be a preschool teacher growing up. I worked in preschool for seven years. So I got my Associates in early childhood. And then I transferred to Columbia College and got my Bachelor's in social work, essentially social work, and decided that's not what I wanted to do. I began working at Columbia College doing social media and got my master's in higher ed administration. And now here I am, I work for a social media app for high schoolers going into college. So still kind of like higher ed adjacent, but also run a greeting card company. MARY: Right. So you're doing social media and you're a master at social media by the way. You're doing social media for them and you're running this company that has just literally blown up. How did it come to be that Tik Tok contacted you and said we want you to be in this for us. CALLIE: So I retold the story recently or was talking with the people that this all started with. It started in the spring of 2022. So we actually got a very kind of vague sketch email from TikTok that was like, Hey, we're working on a new upcoming project. If you think you might be interested in being part of this vague project that we can't tell you information about, like fill out this Google form. And I clicked it and like it really was just a basic Google form asking about my business and I'm like, well, nothing I'm sharing here is like proprietary information that they can't like find on my website. So I filled it out. And three months later, they got the green light from legal to start this. It was called TikTok Impact and showing the impact of TikTok on small businesses. So they got the green light to start it and so it started as a website with about I think 10 to 20 of us, representing 10 states. And that rolled into the first campaign with TikTok, which was South Carolina based…a couple of billboards and newspaper ads and stuff that ran in October of 2022. And then thought that was it… thought the campaign was done. And then I was contacted in July of 2023 by a production company, they're like, Hey, we think you're a good fit for a project again, super vague. We can't tell you the client. Like are you interested? And I'm like, sure we've done this before and it's been great. So sure, let's try it again. Turns out the client was TikTok again. But it was a much bigger scale. So it involved filming this commercial, they came to my house. I think there was like 13 or 14 different production team members that came out and we filmed all day long. And then this is part of a national campaign so it's rolled out. I think the commercial is rolled out to South Carolina at this moment, but will continue to roll out nationwide. And then it also included billboards in places like… Vegas is covered. I think there's like 13 or 14 in Vegas. Times Square, the New York subway system… all around South Carolina and it's been really cool to watch that grow. MARY: Yeah I love on your Instagram when you put your…. you took a picture of yourself in front of your billboard in Times Square. CALLIE: Yeah, we went up for my birthday in December and I was like, told my parents we have to go to Times Square to see this. It's just surreal to see yourself in public on these advertisements. So I just flew to Washington DC. And I saw myself in the airport like on the screens and I was like, Oh wait, that's me like, and nobody else around me like notices in this moment that I'm standing here like in all of this ad and everyone else is just going about their busy day, but I'm like, right. Oh my gosh, I'm on this giant screen like that's crazy.  MARY: Yeah,I know that feeling. The first time I saw we had a billboard for one of my stations that I worked at when I was broadcasting. And the first time I saw one of our billboards I had to like stop. I've literally pulled up on the side of the highway. Like oh my god, that's huge. CALLIE: The first night that somebody texted me that the billboards were live in Columbia, because I didn't know that that was part of this campaign. So somebody's like, I just saw a billboard of you and I'm like, What are you talking about? They're like, Oh, yeah, it's over onForest drive and it actually was not on Forest drive. It was somewhere completely different. They got the location wrong. So I'm driving around Columbia, like just looking for myself. And yeah, it's probably crazy, but it's a lot of fun. MARY: I love that. But I do want to point out to our listeners that this is a prime example… I do a workshop sometimes for women entrepreneurs who… how to get your story told. Right? And so let me ask this question… was anything… did you have to pay for any of this?  CALLIE: Not a penny.  MARY: Exactly. So saying yes to things will get you free advertisement. Right? Now, of course, there are a lot of scams out there. So do be careful about that kind of stuff and kind of use the techniques that Callie used to say, Okay, this is just business stuff that I'm giving them, right?  CALLIE: Absolutely.  MARY: And then you can always do your background checks, make, make the phone calls, send the emails, you know, do whatever you need to do to check the background of things like this. But let's talk about how this has blown up your business. CALLIE: Yes, so, through the first campaign, we ended up getting verified on Tik Tok and being able to reach a large amount of people and through that campaign, rolled into the opportunity to… so that started with the vague sketchy email to begin with, which then turned into the first South Carolina campaign, which then rolled into the opportunity to speak at South by Southwest last March on a panel with TikTok which led to go into DC with TikTok, which led to like this campaign, and so saying yes, at all these points, continues to just open doors. But yes, I think I missed the rest of your question there. MARY: I think you got it. Saying yes to one thing opened all those other doors. South by Southwest is huge, you know, being able to go to DC all off this one, you know, thing that you said yes to was really the catalyst for all of that, right. So, let's talk about the art just a little bit because you were an art major, right. And how does that play into part of your personality, part of who you are and into the whole thing? CALLIE: Yeah, it's been cool to be able to take some of these designs that you don't see represented in greeting cards every day. And I know again, like I always tell people like you, if I can succeed on Tik Tok, you can succeed on TikTok. I am selling greeting cards in a digital world. Like people don't send mail, people love to receive mail, but don't take the time to send mail. And so the fact that we've sold over 50,000 cards in the last three years is proof that like people want that connection, they want human connection. And I think a big thing is like people like to purchase from me because I show myself on my account a lot. I also share not just business stuff, but I I share a little bit of the personal side. We talk about mental health. We talked about behind the scenes of packing orders and so people connect on a personal level there and feel like they're supporting a person in a business. And that's something they could get behind.  MARY: Yeah, I think you bring up another good point with that because part of marketing yourself on social media and you just gave us a tactic right there. Right. So it's not all about the business. It's not all about buy buy buy this right. It's about sharing and connecting on a personal level. CALLIE: Absolutely. So originally I had gone back and privated all at the beginning of my TikTok because they were so cringy I couldn't even like stand to see them on my account. They were… it was bad. I was just watching the waters…. and I had to go back and unhide them because the reality is like I didn't want to minimize, like how rough the start was, like sure we're at 113,000 followers now. But we weren't there at the beginning. And we started small. We started cringy it took a while to find our stride. And when I did, it really changed when I started getting on camera and being myself and realizing like, I am not going to be equal to the people that have millions of followers like I don't have the pretty perfect setup. This is me in my garage selling greeting cards and so once I found what was unique to me and just like the fact that like this is who I am and embracing that, like that's when we saw growth because I got comfortable with who I was instead of just trying to be everybody else.  MARY: Yeah. Wow. What you just said is so powerful. Right there. I think that being comfortable with who you are and finding the power within yourself can transcend any area of our life. But at the same time holds us back from all areas as well. Right? If we don't have those feelings. Even in my own daily life I catch myself ... .that self talk, you know that we have that Oh, I shouldn't do this because I don't have this or I don't do this right. And, boy, I need to take your advice today. And I know somebody listening does too. Wow.  CALLIE: I often have to remind myself that especially as my account grows larger, I find myself hesitating before I post up I'm like Ooh, is this worth the post? Like is this gonna fit things and I realize I'm like, that's not how we got here. And that's not how we're going to continue to grow if I'm if I stray away from where like what our tried and true like method is so yeah, everything doesn't have to be perfectly filmed. My hair always looks like a disaster. It's always a frizzy mess. Usually whatever t shirt I wear for the day, or I slept in and just showing whatever I'm working on really connects with people, MARY: Yeah whatever part of your life that it is for that moment. Yeah, yeah. You also brought up the fact that you started with… You know, I mean, everybody has to start somewhere. Right? And so with the followers on Tiktok, you started with small followers with a small number of followers and then that grew over time, the more that you became your authentic self and I think so many of us, me included, tend to not be as consistent as perhaps we should be to help really gain those followers and take advantage of what Tik Tok and other social media outlets have to offer for free advertising for us.  CALLIE: Absolutely. Yeah. It's really cool for me to connect with the people that used to join my live streams like I remember when I hit 1000 followers and I got to finally live stream for TikTok specifically and there was two people that would join my live streams all the time. I think we ever we maxed out at like five people viewing for the first couple months and now whenever I go live, there's sometimes there can be a couple 100 people in there, but sometimes I see those, those original two or three and it's always such a special moment when I see it pop up, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you're you're still here. Like you're still like, I don't care about the rest of them like you followed me through either there at the beginning. Like it's really it's really important for me to connect with my followers in general in the comments, but then also to like, remember people and remember that, like I wouldn't be here today without the support of the people along the way. MARY: Yeah, that's an excellent point too. And that connection, you know, when those live streams, you're creating community. CALLIE: Yeah. 100% we have whole like, like conversations in the comments, or I think at one point, I was taking a new medication that had to be taken at night and I'm a nighttime like live streamer. Like that's usually when I'm going live and I had one follower who is now a really good friend of mine we've never met but she would remind me every night and she's like remember to take your meds and I was like thanks because I forgot and they're ADHD meds so like it's seem funnier that like usually it was the thing… the thing you need to take to remember to do the things consistently. And so she was my consistent reminder during live streams and he's like, Did you take your medicine and like, Oh, thank you so much. Let me take one right now. And so yeah, we got through that entire, like, season of that specific medication because she reminded me every night because I wouldn't remember. MARY: I love that. So what inspires you? CALLIE: That's a great question. I am fueled by trying new things, and seeing what can happen. So I also love a good challenge. So recently, back in August or July…I had an opportunity to work with a laser company called… and they sent me a laser and I was to make content with it. And so I wanted to do a 90 day payoff challenge. Because I thought, You know what, that'd be a cool like source of content…have all these projects. I need to pay this laser off anyway, like let's, let's do it in 90 days. And so I made a list of all these projects that I wanted to do and started working my way through it. And on day 15, our Stanley topper file went viral and we sold $30,000 worth in nine days on TikTok shop. And so those videos collectively have over 10 million views. My house is a train wreck for weeks as I had about 14,15 people rotating in and out to help me fulfill these orders. But I'm constantly like inspired by trying new things, seeing what will take off and then watching the power of social media work. We've had multiple cards go viral, we've had multiple products and so it's always fun to kind of chase that like new level of success but also like what is going to connect most with our followers. MARY: Right. Do you sell the cards as singles or in groups? How does that work? CALLIE: So we have cards that are available as singles. We have postcards. We have flat cards that go with an envelope and a stamp. And then we have like little baby like mini cards. And you can buy them individually but you can also bundle them to get them at a cheaper price.  MARY: Okay, excellent. So what has been the most rewarding about this process for you… this experience?  CALLIE: I think the experiences and being able to meet people and connect with people. I think social media allows you to really connect with people that are outside of your circle. And so I have been able to make some really incredible friends through Tiktok through social media in general. I actually went to VidCon out in California last year with four creator friends that I had, or three creator friends that I'd never met in person. We all rented Airbnb and went out together and had an absolute blast. But we've just built all these relationships, friendships, partnerships with different people. And that is… it's just so fulfilling. MARY: Yeah, that's really cool. And I think you know for all of its faults, social media does that really well.  CALLIE: Yes.  MARY: Is there any obstacles that you had to overcome that you other than, you know, the self talk which we've talked about, you know, that you've had to overcome in the process? CALLIE: I think our biggest challenge is always like money, and funding. I started this with 20 bucks in the bank account and have used the profits from whatever I sell to reinvest back into my business and so every time we go viral or we have these like big influx, it's like okay, now how do we, how do we upgrade our stuff? Instead of outsourcing, we now print all of our stuff in house. We've purchased the equipment, you know, we've purchased the lasers, we've purchased the shelving like never, never knew shelving was so expensive. But to house all of the cards that we offer, we have about 150 designs. And to also to hire an assistant that helps with fulfilling card orders. That was important but yeah, I think funding especially when not going like traditional, like loan routes, because that wasn't something I wanted to do. It's also sometimes hard to find small business loans when you're brand new, but not like when I still consider myself like a pretty like a baby business compared to like a retail location or something like that. Everything operates out of my dining room and so sometimes that funding is usually like one of the hardest parts.  MARY: Yeah, that's…it is hard, especially for a company that's starting up because for banks to lend you money of course they want to see three years of growth right? CALLIE: Yeah.  MARY: And you're like, Well, how do I get the growth but don't have the money? CALLIE: Exactly, exactly.  MARY: So you have to be creative in the ways that you find. So then when you have this big orders like that $30,000 order right… or 30,000 card order, then you just hire part time people to come in and help you get them out quickly. CALLIE: Yes, my dad was here everyday helping. My assistant was here and then I literally put the call out on Facebook. I was like who has extra time during the day… night. We would have people that would come in at 7:30 in the morning. A friend of mine… I gave her my house code and was like here's the key to the door. She would come in and start working. I would sleep in a little bit. But I would also work until 2,3,4 in the morning with the late night crew and so we made it through like you find your community, find your local people that will jump into help but yeah, August was chaotic. MARY: And that but you know what, that's a great problem to have. CALLIE: Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah. MARY: So looking forward, what are some of the goals that you have for the card company? I mean, do you I mean, I guess you want to stay in your garage forever. CALLIE: Yeah, I don't know.  MARY: Although that might be kind of nice.  CALLIE: But yeah, it's well, it's nice, not having like an overhead of a shop or warehouse or anything. Our garage is converted so it's like a two car garage size but it's a nice like workspace. For me I think I've specifically this past year I've been operating essentially two businesses under one name. So we have the greeting card side and then we have the laser engrave side and low backs are how the laser engraving came in. It's because no one gets rich off of $2 greeting cards. Takes a lot of greeting cards to build up by capital. And so we introduced laser engraving personalized items to help get our cost per order up. But they still kind of feel like two separate verticals. So the goal this year is to invest in a UV printer, which will allow me to take the full color designs of my cards and print them onto cups, wood, stuff that I can use in my laser engraver and be able to finally merge those two businesses and have them like mesh a little bit more cohesively. So that's a large investment of a pretty expensive piece of equipment. And so yeah, I'm sure I'm excited to figure out how we obtain that but that is the ultimate goal for 2024. MARY: How do you proceed TikTok helping you in the coming year? CALLIE: Well, this specific campaign is not a short, the ads may stop running soon, like the print and digital ones. But this is… it's going to be a long term advertisement for them and for me, and so I know that's going to help with business. I already get orders all the time. That's like hey, we saw we saw your ad like we're now ordering. But TikTok the platform itself is… 98% of my customers find me through TikTok so that's where we put all of our time and effort. We have Instagram, Facebook, we don't put as much stock time investment into those platforms because when you find something that works like I'm investing my time there on TikTok so continuing to create content that engages people that I think going back and doing a lot more content about the how… how we get to places the start of a card, how we design it, how it's printed, cutted, showing the behind the scenes of that is something like my followers have asked to see more of this year. They also asked to see more of the laser and so we're gonna be featuring more of that This year as well.  MARY: Yeah, that's fun to see. That's fun to watch. CALLIE: I realized like as much as I see it working and it may like lose its sparkle a little bit when you're running it consistently. My followers don't get to see the chaos of watching it run and so I've got to remember that's not…most people don't have multiple lasers in their house. So I need to share that more with people. It's very common for me, but it's not common for 99% of the population. MARY: Right, right. You know, I want to circle back around to DC because we I know there were these huge hearings about TikTok and potentially regulation or, or even not allowing Tiktok to operate in the United States. And I know that if that were to happen, it would hurt small business owners and I think you would be one of those people. CALLIE: Yeah, yeah. I actually just got back from DC. I was up there talking about credit card swipe fees. Additionally talking about the impact of Tiktok on my business and kind of my stance on things is a lot of the questions right now are about internet security, data privacy, and we're having these conversations. Tik Tok gets called out a lot because the parent company has owners that are also Chinese based. And so that causes a lot of fear. But the reality is that data security and privacy is a much bigger topic that is not limited to TikTok. We have those issues with Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, LinkedIn, Twitter, whatever, all of them have the same issues. And so when I'm talking with our representatives, talking about let's have the broader conversation, let's not single out one because the reality is if we can pass legislation that protects users and people. It's just eliminating one, it's not going to fix the problem. We need to do more to protect everybody. And so I'm hoping that some of those conversations we'll realize that that's the bigger issue. But yeah, it's a risk, putting kind of like a lot of my all my eggs in that one basket but right now, like it is the most accessible platform for small businesses the way that the algorithm works, the way that the platform shows stuff that you're interested in. And so it's easier for small businesses to have a fighting chance of being seen versus Instagram and Facebook that really value the amount of followers you have over the interest of what you have. So it'll be interesting to see. But I continue to use our voice to talk to our representatives because I met with our representatives office this week, and Lindsey Graham and talked to their office and showed my stats and they're like we've never heard a small business story from Tik Tok. And I'm a constituent and so going and showing the staff with like, 98% of my customers find me here like here's… our audience is actually older, like it isn't young kids and so kind of changing the narrative by giving the other side of the truth there. MARY: And thank you for doing that. And I think all small businesses should thank you for doing that. Because, you know, the good thing about social media, no matter what platform it is, is it's free advertising for you. Every time you're on there, right? You are the face of your company. You are the brand so to speak, right? And that's some advertising that you don't have to pay for. Absolutely, it's free. And if you're not using social media, then you should start using social media. CALLIE: Yeah, we don't pay. I think I ran one ad last year. And it was a very targeted ad because it was for a very targeted product for our cutting boards, like it was a targeted age group for that specific product. But yeah, we've done so much. I mean, I think we did probably close to $50,000 in sales last year without a single like dollar of advertisement. MARY: That's great for the bottom line.  CALLIE: Yeah. MARY: Let's give some advice to people because we just talked a little bit about the age, you know, and that's a misnomer that ultimately kids on Tik Tok, right, because it's not. It's only old people on Facebook because it's not, right. And so let's talk about if you can give some advice to some of our listeners about maybe some tips and tricks of the trade so to speak of getting yourself noticed. CALLIE: Um, specific per platform or just in general? MARY: In general, or if you want to go specific, specific, that's fine. CALLIE: I think often that we target certain platforms for certain ages. And that's not necessarily true. Facebook's become older generation. Snapchat is just like the high schoolers TikTok is like Gen X, millennials, whatever. But that's not true. Some of my favorite Tik Tokers are actually like quite old. We have… like I follow a Grandma, that's one of my favorite people on the app. I think there is a spot for everybody on all platforms. All say that the demographics from my Tik Tok account and actually have this beside me. So I'm not just pulling out numbers. 71% of my followers are between 25 and 54 and 87% are women. 96 or 96% of them are in the US. So I do have international followers. I've shipped a lot of international orders from that percentage that is internationally, but I think that not specifically targeting a certain age… I think making your stuff broader is the best way to appeal to people on all platforms. My dad loves TikTok. Does he create content on there? Absolutely not. But he does scroll it nightly for hours because he sends me them all the time. So it's, it's really cool for him or for me to see certain brands like really embrace the fact that like all ages are on TikTok and be able to target across all generations with their content and like it's resulted in…he has purchased us specifically because he saw it on TikTok.  MARY: Yeah. I do that all the time. CALLIE: We joke about like Facebook ads are like super targeted because of your like interests or whatever. You think and it appears but there are still younger people on Facebook. They may not be posting but they see stuff. Same with Instagram, I think a lot of people watch but don't necessarily post and so just because you may not be seeing their content on there doesn't mean they're not there.  MARY: That's a great, great point. Because there are 1000s, millions of people probably on Tik Tok that just kind of scroll and watch and whatever, the videos and they're seeing those ads, right? I don't I mean, you know, as I said, I'm a gadget girl, which is how we met each other. And because I went up to Callie and I was like, hey, show me what you're doing here man. And I am forever ordering gadgets off TikTok shop.  CALLIE: The amount of stuff that I need to do an entire video of stuff that I've ordered because I saw it on TikTok and there is a hashtag TikTok made me buy it but I have peach mango toothpaste because I found it on TikTok. Like I hate the taste of normal mint toothpaste. And I got served an ad for flavored toothpaste and was like done… immediately purchased. And that was like such like such a good decision that like makes an impact on my daily life. But like a random thing. MARY: I will tell you I have not gotten anything that's cheap or bad or anything from any of my Tik Tok purchases.  CALLIE: Yeah, most of them are pretty solid. I will say as a TikTok shop seller, the regulations that they have…they're pretty strict. And so we're constantly fighting the product authorization stuff on like getting our stuff posted because sometimes it says like I think this is… like your price is too low, we think it's a scam and I was like it's a mini greeting card like I can't charge more than $1.50 for this like sometimes it'll flag us like we think this is a scam it's because you're offering it for $1. So…but yeah, I think the last probably eight months has been really heavy on TikTok shop as they released that and try to grow it. I think that now that Black Friday and Christmas and stuff are over I think it'll chill out a little bit. But it is interesting to watch how the different platforms are changing their algorithms and changing what they're promoting. I recently got a message from Tiktok saying that they're wanting you to post some vertical or some horizontal videos and longer videos and you've got YouTube over there promoting shorts and then you've got Instagram that wants to be everybody… do all the things. So it's important to pay attention to all of the platforms and see what they're favoring. And if you can ride the wave as soon as they announce something…I will say that's like one of the things we found the most successful is when a when a platform releases a new trend or not necessarily like a trendy type of thing, but like TikTok specifically said recently that they're favoring longer videos and they're favoring the, the horizontal so they're fighting YouTube essentially. I have friends that are posting that and going viral for those longer videos and it's counterintuitive what we think Tik Tok should be but if TikTok is saying, Hey, we're favoring this. It's pretty dumb to not ride that wave. Even if we don't agree with it because like, I don't have it like I don't TikTok to be YouTube… I want the short fun videos but like as a creator, as a marketer, you got to sometimes you got to suck it up. MARY: Right. Callie, thank you so much. This has been such an interesting conversation. CALLIE: Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun to talk about this kind of stuff. MARY: Yeah, absolutely. Before I let you go though, tell our listeners and we are on YouTube too. So tell our listeners and our viewers how they can get in touch with you and how they can order from you and that kind of thing. CALLIE: You can find my stuff at sparksofjoyco.com. Our handle is sparks of joy co on all platforms. And then we have our website. MARY: Perfect. Again, Callie thank you so much. We can sit here and learn from you so so much. So everybody, you know she gave us some really good nuggets and even some Easter eggs in there, to use a Taylor Swift term, that you can pull out when you listen to this podcast and kind of put to use in your own life and your own building of your business. So Callie, thank you so much again. CALLIE: Thank you.  MARY: Take care.        

Go with Angels is the podcast about angels with Mary Brotherton, the author of three books about Angels, and your opportunity to learn more about the angels who have told Mary: You don't have to believe in angels, but we believe in you. Today Mary introduces you to Metatron, a very powerful archangel who represents the Truth that you can access your spiritual power and ascend.

Embark on an enlightening conversation with Heather Mckenzie Patterson and Katherine Sandoval Taylor, co-founders of On Stage Collective, as they recount their journey from college vocal performance majors to pioneers in the immersive performance program landscape. From adapting to major changes during their studies to overcoming setbacks caused by COVID-19, their unwavering dedication and problem-solving spirit shine through. Through auditions and immersive learning, they've empowered aspiring performers, shaping the future of arts education. Join their exciting journey as they gear up for their upcoming New York show, continuing to offer aspiring artists a chance to shine and fulfill their dreams within a supportive and transformative community at On Stage Collective. Guests: Heather McKenzie Patterson and Katherine Sandoval Taylor Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez TRANSCRIPT MARY: Hi everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host Mary Sturgill. This podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. This is also the podcast where we talk to entrepreneurs and innovative thinkers about their endeavors, and we share their stories with you in hopes of inspiring you. And today we welcome guests Katherine Sandoval Taylor and Heather Mckenzie Patterson, who are both Furman alumni and founders of the immersive production company On Stage Collective. Katherine and Heather, welcome to the show.  Katherine: Thank you for having us. Heather: Thank you so much, Mary.  Mary: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to start because I was of course looking at your all's career paths and your accolades and stuff and you have been… both of you have been in some of my favorite operas and performances. Can you talk and Katherine, we'll start with you. Can you talk about some of your favorite shows that you've been in? Katherine: Yeah. So um, gosh, I've been so fortunate to really be able to check off a lot of bucket list roles in my career. Some of my favorites, I guess, have been Maria in West Side Story. That was a role that I was looking forward to playing my entire life. And I have played that role twice. Love. One of those was actually in South Carolina, with an opera company in South Carolina, and we rehearsed at Furman. So that was really cool. Another one of my favorite roles was from Light in the Piazza. I played Clara and that was a really beautiful production. Another favorite stage memory of mine was when I did two national tours, two national jazz tours. And that was a really great experience, kind of like living the tour bus life for a while. That was fun, and I really got to kind of explore a different side of my voice that I didn't… I haven't had the opportunity to perform that much with, but it was really… it was a really cool experience doing that tour. And I worked with some incredible musicians and singers that I learned a lot from. So yeah, those are some of my favorites.  Mary: Yeah, I love that. Okay. Heather, what about you? Heather: Sure. Um, I would say that, gosh, it's been a minute since I've sung any opera, but I would say that…I did that with Arbor Opera Theater up in Michigan. After I finished my master's up there at Michigan State. And another role that was… I actually only completed scenes of this but it was Sophie from Deb Rosenkavalier..and that's one my favorite operas of all time. So that was really fun. Got to revisit that a couple of times. And I would say one of my most like meaningful memories was singing at Carnegie Hall, which I had done a few times versus a chorister in high school. That was of course like, oh my gosh, I can't believe we're here on the stage. You know, really exciting. And then I went back as a singer with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra and chorus. We went there a couple of times and we sang Peter Grimes, the full opera concert version of the opera there. And while we were in rehearsal for that, I was singing in the chorus it was a big chorus for that and I, the soprano walked down to the front and I was like, next time I'm on this stage, I'm going to be out front in a big poofy gown as a soloist and I even said it to a friend of mine and of course next year like that's, that's where I'm going to be next time and it was one of those like manifest moments where that's what happened. So the next time I got to perform there was as a soprano soloist with a big choral orchestral work, we were singing a Schubert mass, and I bought the big pink gown and sang at the front of the stage with one of my favorite conductors. And it was a blast and probably the best part was just that I had a lot of friends and family come to the performance from all over the country. We had a big party afterwards and so that was just really special to celebrate. Like I saw my parents, you know, in the 12th row like oh my gosh, freaking out. It was really nice to have that memory with people that I love.  Mary: Yeah, I love that idea of manifesting that, you know, speaking that into existence right? I think that's what well, I think a ton of artists do that no matter what, you know, whether they're performing arts or the you know, different kind of art, but I think that that spirit that comes with just being an artistic person kind of drives that in you and you and you have to believe them, right?  Katherine: Yeah, definitely.  Heather: And it can be scary, I think even like I would call myself a recovering perfectionist. And so I would be like, if those perfectionists out there know you don't want to even do something unless you know you're going to be awesome at it like the best perfect at it, right?  Mary: Yeah.  Heather: And so manifesting something like that or saying something out loud that could easily never happen. Like that could easily never work out for you. I wouldn't, it's not in my nature to want to really, like put it out there unless I knew for sure I could just make it happen. Mary: Right. Right. I don't think you're alone in that.  Heather: It was a leap of faith, you know? Mary: Yeah, for sure. I don't think you're alone in that. I think all entrepreneurs and innovative thinkers have that. I mean, we talk to other entrepreneurs on this podcast and they want to get the best, most perfect product or iteration of whatever their venture is right out there. When in fact, we should just literally just do it, right?  Katherine: Yeah, sometimes Heather and I joke about the phrase that we need to implement in our lives a bit more, which is better done than perfect. Because sometimes, as Heather said, being a perfectionist, I would also lope myself into that category of recovering perfectionist. I feel like being a perfectionist can sometimes hold you back from opportunities and, and at least taking that first step to try and that's important to kind of acknowledge that sometimes you do have to take that leap of faith just to maximize your potential.  Mary: Yeah, absolutely. 100% I love that. Say that phrase again. I want to make sure our listeners get that.  Katherine: Better done than perfect.  Mary: Yeah, better done than perfect. That's my new motto. Heather: Always within reason. Mary: Of course. Yes. Absolutely. We always put our best foot forward anyway. So you guys have known each other for a long time. You were roommates here at Furman?  Heather: Yes, we were. Longer ago than I care to say.  Mary: So you're both vocal performance majors while you were here. And of course, you both went on to get higher degrees and stuff. But was there any competition between you for roles and stuff while you're here?  Heather: Oh, that's so funny. Well, I want to clarify that I started out as a vocal performance major, but I did change my major to a BA in voice. And that was because I wanted to double major with psychology. Mary: Oh, that's great.  Heather: At least at the time, you couldn't get like a Bachelor of Music in one thing and a Bachelor of Arts in something else. You had to get a Bachelor of Music in two things and a Bachelor of Arts in two things. And I remember the conversation sitting down with Dr. Thomas, the department chair at the time, to like deliver this news that I wanted to change my major and how was that going to affect my scholarships and was I going to be allowed to do it, you know? And so I…he said, yes, of course, Heather, we will support you doing that and so I was able to shift. And as much as I could, I tried to take like the classes that the performance majors were taking. And so it was just a matter of like, oh, I guess I'll just overload every semester that I'm here to get in all of the credits for both majors. But there were things that I didn't get to take because I wasn't a performance major, just specific classes. One of them I think, Kat you'll know the…Was it a counterpoint class that you had to take a class…that I didn't have to take and by then we were roommates and so she was just like, I hate this. Katherine: She could have helped me. Heather: But to answer your question about competition… I mean, I don't think so. I never would… I'm very competitive with myself. But with the people that I love, like my my ride or die BFFs I don't want to compete with them at all, you know, like I want to celebrate them and to be honest, if there was ever a time where that might happen like, I mean Kat, you can say if this is not true, but I would just not want to audition like I would just want…if I knew it was something that best friend like Kat really wanted, like, I just wouldn't want to audition for that. I would be like, you know her hype girl for that role rather than like, out of my way let me try, you know. I don't recall any competition. Katherine: No, I don't…Heather and I aren't competitive with each other. And I feel like it's just kind of like a personality trait that we both share. We weren't competitive then with each other and we're not competitive now. I feel like you know, I feel very strongly about surrounding myself with strong, talented, passionate women. And being surrounded by strong, talented, passionate women encourages you to be better at what you do. It's not about competition. It's about lifting each other up and empowering each other and learning from each other. And that's something that Heather and I… I've always really respected and looked up to Heather and learned a lot from her and I feel like that hasn't changed. We did that in college. I felt the same way then that I do now… that we empower each other and motivate each other. So, no, there was never any competition between us.  Mary: Yeah, I love what you say about empowering each other and uplifting each other. And I think both of you have been teachers for close to 20 years now. What has informed… how is that experience and your performance experience informed On Stage Collective and what you're doing now? Katherine: Oh, 100% Yeah. Such a large can of worms.  Heather: Well, the reason that we began the company was out of our two studios. So just the background information is that yes, we both have been teaching in different iterations for years. Then we honed our own private studios. I taught at a few universities for over 10 years, 12,13 years, something like that, but we were both building our private studios of voice and piano. And we both think big and we want what we put out there to be excellent. And I think it's been important to both of us to provide great opportunities for our performers, our students to be able to do big things, big performances, big opportunities. And so before, before COVID, we were talking about like, where maybe if we partner up, we're in totally different cities, totally different states. But what if we brought our students together? And really this was… Kat brought this idea to me. What if we partnered together with the students in our studio? And could we do a performance somewhere excellent that they don't have access to and even we don't have access to on our own, but could we pool our resources, pool our students, our talent base, and make something really incredible? And that was like the first conversation. You know, how it started was just to do something with our own two studios that we couldn't do on our own. Kat,  would you agree with how that started? Katherine: Right. And it just kind of took off from there. So we were thinking big, and we took that leap of faith like we just talked about. It was a little bit scary. And I mean, honestly, it felt impossible to think about performing. I mean, fast forward to where we ultimately decided we wanted to try to perform which was 54 Below at Broadway's living room. I mean, every famous Broadway star you can think of has stood on that stage and has… and behind that microphone. And so that was a little bit intimidating and seemed out of reach. And we just put…we're such big thinkers…it was something we wanted to try for at least and then we surprised ourselves and then we had a full, all of a sudden, we had a full cast of people from all over the country ready to perform with us and make this big event happen. And it kind of just like snowballed from there.  Mary: So talk a little bit about that process. And how did you, you already had some of the students, but did all of your students participate in that and how did that kind of come to fruition?  Heather: Yeah, we auditioned them because, you know, I know what my students sound like, but not Kat's students and vice versa. So, we wanted to make it as fair as possible too, you know, and have an outside person judge and choose who would be performing. So we brought in a panel of people, not just the two of us, but other music directors to listen to all of the singers and they didn't know whose student was coming, you know which student was coming from which studio. And so the students submitted videos, I think two full songs, and we had the panel and ourselves rank the singers and came up with kind of like, okay, our max number of singers was such and such number. And so not everyone got to go from our studios and not everyone from our studios auditioned, but we selected people from that audition, and it was basically half and half. Half students from Kat's studio and half from mine. Now, this was pre COVID. And I did want to back up because when Kat mentioned the leap of faith…I feel like the first leap of faith was… I remember where I was standing. We were on a call and it was like should we just call 54 below like is that a thing? Can we just call them? Let's call them. So we did, you know, go to the website, call the number. This was a better done than perfect situation because we didn't we didn't have anything formulated yet or planned or when or who, what. We just called and that got the ball rolling and I think that built the confidence because it was just a normal person on the other side of the phone who just walked us through their requirements and what it would take to be selected, to be able to perform there. And then it's just steps, you know, one foot in front of the other, do this thing, and this thing, then this thing. And so that first cast, I think it was like 24,26, 28 singers, something in that number, and it's foggy because that group did not end up performing at 54 below. And that is because our first cast was set to perform July 2020. So we all know what that means. So we had planned and this was just the two of us putting on lots of different hats and utilizing every skill we'd ever learned or gained to auditioning singers to craft the show to pick the music to assign the songs to the singers to arrange songs like over the phone. How does this chord sound for this because that cannot be a trio… Mary: Wow. And you did that over the phone?  Heather: Yeah. Before zoom was a thing. We were just on the phone trying to arrange songs together. And we did and the singers learned the music. It was so exciting. And it was I think April 2020 that we had to go, all right, if we don't make a choice right now to postpone or cancel this production, like we'll be within the 90 days of owing all of the money that we owe to the hotel and all the things right so we have to call it at some point. And it's it felt still like oh so optimistic April 2020 us. You know, or maybe by July like this, this virus will just burn up in the summer heat and it'll go away. And that did not happen. And so we did. We postponed it at that point to say okay, cast, we're gonna we're gonna try to do this again, but we need to, you know, wait and we tried to do it the following summer, July 2021. But unfortunately, I think there was some kind of whatever strain had come out that previous winter by December 2020. It still wasn't looking good. Mary: Right.   Heather: And people were still worried about going. It was almost worse then. And so we decided to, at that point, sadly cancel. So we had to just say… just end it. And that was heartbreaking. Really difficult to deliver that news to the cast. And then that is when that was like a big shift for us, which was okay, we're not… that's over but we just can't give up on this dream. We've worked so hard. We've put all these pieces together. We know we can do it. But when and how? And we were watching our own students in our studios every performance that they were in that year got canceled. Every graduation, every prom, you know all of our events after the other. Yes, our college students, just devastating. And talking to our singer friends, our teacher friends, directors just, it's just obliterated and it was so so sad. And so then we were like, Gosh, why can't we just open this up to anyone? We don't have to limit this to our own students. Everybody is just dying for a chance to perform again. Why don't we contact everyone we know? All of the choir teachers, theater directors, singers, voice teachers across the country, this network of people that we now know from our performing and teaching and grad schools and stuff and ask them Hey, do you have students who would want to audition for this? We're going to do this. It's going to happen and now we're opening it up to anyone and everyone. And you know, the first iteration was video auditions. So we could still do that, you know, no problem, of course. And so we did, and we were able to build two casts of singers and perform two performances in 2022, which was so satisfying. Many of the singers were still coming from our own studios, so that was especially satisfying to see them performing after all this time. Even some of them who were in that first 2021 cast that was supposed to perform…sorry 2020. But now with singers who…Maine, California, Florida, Michigan, like all… Katherine: Washington State. Mary: All over the country.  Heather: Yeah. Singers from all over who were just craving performing again. And that was really, really nice to fulfill the dream that we had set out to accomplish and also be fulfilling the dreams of all of these young artists. That was just spectacular. Mary: You know, I think you know, 2020 threw a complete loop and especially for those of you who started companies quite right before and… but we do have a lot of entrepreneurs who really either started right before or during and it was a great time… I will say this, it was a great time for planning and for iterating right? Like figuring out okay, this didn't work because… obviously you guys ran into a brick wall, right? And, but so many people would stop at that point, right? That's.. We failed… you know, COVID took us out, you know, kind of thing. How did you and because I'm sure those thoughts entered your minds at some point. And Katherine, I'll start with you on this one. How did you kind of push those thoughts out and keep going? Katherine: Well, I mean, at the root of it, I feel like artists specifically, I can't speak to other entrepreneurs and different, on different platforms. But artists at the heart of everything are resilient. I mean, look at Broadway artists, Broadway was probably the last, the last group of people that went back to work. They were out the longest, and then… but resilience, you know, wins the race. So I feel like even in my own studio, we were.. I was creating opportunities for my students that were unique. And it pushed my thinking outside of the box in a really exceptional great way that I am grateful for, because it made me think about art, performance art, and singing and acting in a different way than I ever had to one thing that we… in my own studio we started doing during COVID, and we have maintained this project to date, was I produce professional music videos for my students, and I partner with a cinematographer. We started that because of COVID because all of our performances for the year shut down. I was on Zoom teaching all of my regular lessons. And so we decided to do these outdoor music video shoots with a cinematographer that I hired and I directed the shoots and every, every music video had a different theme and a different concept and a different aesthetic. And that was a product of COVID and that's the resilience in artists that you see. It doesn't surprise me that there are other entrepreneurs that kind of like… used the COVID time as a springboard to launch their dreams into reality to kind of regroup, put their nose down, and think about what they wanted to do and kind of get a plan and I feel like that's exactly what Heather and I did. We, you know, if we would have if COVID wouldn't have happened and we would have gone on to do the performance as we planned, it would have been about 25 of our singers from each of our studios and it would have been wonderful, and it would have been great. But what happened in 2022 was phenomenal. And we were so lucky to have so many of those same singers back with us and I was thrilled for them, but to also add other people into the mix, to give those people that we didn't know until now the same opportunity to fulfill those dreams was just… it's just so exciting and it's just it was an amazing experience for us to watch I think especially because Heather and I are both people who love being on the stage and we have had many, many opportunities to fulfill those dreams of our own being front and center performing on grand stages. But to give that back to not only our students, but to really any performing artist that is looking for that opportunity. That is just so fulfilling.  Mary: Yeah. And I think COVID showed us there are different ways of doing things. We don't always have to do things the conventional ways… we can work remotely or do things remotely and I mean, you might not have had the people from St. Louis or from Washington state if you had not had that experience maybe.  Katherine: Exactly.  Mary: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Heather:  You know what, Mary, I was trying to think back to how long Kat and I were deliberating, giving up, you know, we're just not doing it when COVID hit and I can't even remember a single conversation that we had about not moving forward. Mary: I love that.  Heather: And not trying again. And that's not to say that we're special. I think it's exactly what Kat was saying about artists being resilient. It's, you know, how many times have we auditioned for things and gotten a no? If you aren't already thick skinned from getting rejections as a performer, maybe it would be difficult to persevere. But that's the name of the game. That's what this is like, you know how… so many no's before you get a yes. This was just another no that we just had to move past and maybe maybe it's rose colored glasses looking backwards. I know it was really scary. And I know there was some floundering as to you know, what does this look like next, but I just don't think we were ever ready to throw in the towel. It was just, it was just a wait and plan and ideate and come up with something better. So I'm very grateful. So so grateful to have a partner and best friend forever ride or die. That was my partner that just doesn't give up. No one I know… And this is just me. I'm just gonna like wax poetic here about Kat, but I don't know anyone..anyone, any person in my life who has persevered more than she has both professionally and personally. So I look up to her. I admire her so much for that. And that encourages me to not give up and to persevere. And so it was, although so scary, I wouldn't have wanted to face it with anyone else because I knew that she wasn't going to give up, I wasn't gonna give up, we're just going to, you know, keep moving forward. And I know that not all partnerships are rosy, or perfect and anything like that. And certainly we've had our conflicts and our challenges, but I think our relationship was forged at Furman in those beginning stages of really crafting who we are as people and artists and that just builds a beautiful foundation for our professional partnership. So I'm grateful for that. Mary: We've talked a lot on this podcast about especially when you're starting out on ventures you have to be extremely selective about who you partner with, who you hire, who are your first hires, and those kinds of things. And I think this is a prime example of, you know, this was probably a natural partnership just because you guys have been friends for so long and you both have the same interest and the same talents and want to get to the same place and help people get there too, right? One of the things that I was thinking about is that my students sometimes when I give them a project or they pitch their projects to me, right? And then they pitch their idea and then they start throwing up roadblocks about why they might not be able to do this idea. And my comment to them is don't place roadblocks where there aren't any right? And so I think that's a good kind of philosophy that you guys, you know, kind of have too, is that even though you know the 2020 one got shut down, that's a temporary, you know, thing, right? And we can work around it. We can go around that road that roadblock right? We've talked a little bit about the audition process and that kind of thing. What's so… I guess impressive to you guys about the just that immersive learning that you guys promote and supply the space for for your folks? Heather: Kat, do you want to take that or do you want me to? Katherine: Why don't you start Heather, I'll jump in though. Heather: Sure. Yeah, so that's really important to us. I think. And that comes from the fact that we have been performers and teachers. So we know in our own experience as performers that you learn by doing and every performance you learn something every show that you're in, you take away things that you use in the next project, the next contract and same with teaching. We're always learning as teachers, right? So I think that although we know how important training is and education, and what we do for a living is teach singers how to sing. But then you really have to do the thing to gain the most from it. It's also like learning a foreign language. How do you really establish fluency in that language? By immersing yourself, by going to that country, and being around people speaking that language. So it's the same with what we do. And that's what we were initially looking for for our own students… was an immersive experience. These students who say I want to go sing on Broadway. Well, have you been to Broadway? Have you walked the streets of New York City? Have you been in a New York City rehearsal space? Let's go do that. Let me take you there and you can experience that life and you can work with Broadway stars, guest artists to impart wisdom to you and then you can perform on that stage at 54 below where these other famous people have performed and decide for yourself is this really is this…do I want this more than anything? Now that I've been here now I'm inspired to go after it and really do the work that it takes to get here for real for real. So that's what we continue to aim for. And that's, you know, the mission is to for it to be immersive and experiential and, and, you know, there are a lot of programs out there that provide classes and you can go to even New York and do other camps and those kinds of things. And a lot of times it's classes and they bring in maybe also Broadway stars to teach classes and to do q&a sessions. And maybe they perform a song with these folks at the end or you know, but are they the stars of the show? That's what we wanted to do. We really wanted to make our performances feature these young artists. The young artists aren't the backup singers. They're not in the background. They are on the stage. They are doing the performing.  Katherine: They are the show. They're the show. Mary: Yeah, like that. Yeah.  Heather: And that's how they learn best and grow and are challenged and we've had singers come back and do the next year's show too, because they know that they will continue to gain experience and the education of a lifetime from doing the thing. And so that's been really encouraging to see as well. Mary: Yeah. Katherine, do you want to add anything to that? Or that was actually a pretty good answer.  Katherine: Heather was talking a bit about how giving them this real life New York experience. I feel like in a way not to say what we're what we do the week that we're in New York is perfect and glossy and there are no blood, sweat and tears put in. But I will say it's kind of giving these artists a taste of the New York experience the New York performing experience in New York rehearsal experience, the New York Broadway experience, the tourist experience, all of those things without moving to New York to have to, you know, pound the pavement and go to all the auditions and get a million nose in New York City. I will tell you getting a million no's is always difficult. But getting a million no's in New York City when you've moved there for you know, to pursue your dream is really difficult. So we're not saying that we're, we're, you know, pushing all of those things aside and giving them this path to Broadway. But what we are giving them is an opportunity to experience all of those things for a week without having to move to New York City to try to go to a million auditions to do one performance at 54 below. We're giving that to them kind of in a really neat little fun, awesome package with a bow on top. Mary: I always tell my students how do you know you want to do something until you actually do it? Right? You might think you want this this life, right? But you don't know until you actually do it and you're either gonna fall in love with it or decide that's not for me. Right? And this is a great way for your students to do that without the expense of living in New York. And like you say pounding the pavement working three or four jobs and going through auditions and classes and things like that. Heather: And I feel like you know, there we've had several, there are two people that are coming to mind, that have made life shifts, career shifts, school shifts based on our program, and that is incredible to see. I know. I know one person specifically I'm thinking of, she attended… She was one of our original cast members. Then she came back for our first actual performance in 2022. She performed again in 2023 and after the 2022 performance, she texted me and said, I've changed, I'm changing my major. I'm going to be a music major and I've decided I have to live in this city. I have to perform here and that is what I'm destined to do. And that was amazing. I've also seen people come, you know that said, you know, I'm not I'm specifically not pursuing a professional career and performing but I will be back to perform with you every year because this is the best of both worlds. I get to live my life as an accountant. And I get to come and perform in New York City, not just like in a church basement, but like on the stage of 54 Below. I mean, you're getting the best of both worlds. And so I love to hear stories like that, from either sides of that. People who are making a life shift and saying I have to do this for the rest of my life. Or people who are going to say, you know, I'm not going to do only this for the rest of my life. But this gives me that opportunity that I would never have if I didn't do your program.  Mary: And that's important too, right? Because it creates a life balance. It gives people that creative outlet, they get to hang out with people who have the same interest and work on their personal craft. I love that. So what's next for On Stage Collective? Heather:  We are excited to be opening auditions for our next New York cabaret, which is going to be next June. So the date of that performance will be June 15. So the week leading up to that will be our immersive week in New York City. And auditions are officially open already. So in the audition is filling out an application, attaching a photo of yourself, headshot type photo and uploading too, one minute video cuts and that's it. So we're excited about that. Mary: And they can do that at onstagecollective.com? Heather: They can. Yeah, they head to our website. Our social media handle is onstage collective official. And so we always post information there as well about what's upcoming. But really excited to go back. I think one thing that really solidified this past performance this past June in New York was our team. So that first go around, it was just Kat and me doing all the things and that was a fun time but what was really special is honing our full staff. So we have an incredible music director and an incredible production assistant stage manager. We have found great band members to join On Stage. We have an incredible photographer and videographer. And now we've got this beautiful group who work really well together. All creative, artistic, passionate, hard workers. And, and that's been really fun. So we're able to now continue with that same group rather than reinvent the wheel every time, which is exhausting like any listener knows. So this feels really good to settle into our group, our staff, and it feels like you know, a family of sorts. And so now we know I mean our music director Jeremy Jacobs is like Johnny on the spot. He's so creative, can do anything. Kat always jokes that whenever we ask him hey Jeremy, what do you think of this or can you do this? His answer is always absolutely. Like who doesn't love hearing that? You know? Right, he's ready for anything. He's so excellent with our  cast members, both our youngest members who are the youngest, 13 years old all the way through our adult members, you know, the accountants who are coming to live out their dreams in these performances. So that's been really fun. We had a great group for this past year and hoping to continue those collaborations with those artists. Mary: Yeah, those kind of yes-men are great.  Heather: Yes-men and women are wonderful to have around.  Katherine: I would like to add, you know, the auditions are open and sometimes a misconception that is out there. I'm not sure how it's out there but people kind of like select themselves out of these auditions by saying like, Oh my god, well, I'm too old. I can't do that. Like I mean that's I'm that's not for me. Or my daughter is too young. She's only 13. She can't perform in New York City. We this past cast I don't know if our youngest,  our youngest was 14. I mean, yeah. So we accept cast members for this same show from ages 13 through adults. And that's something that makes a show really exciting and interesting. These… it's a variety of people not only from different walks of life and different career paths in different parts of the country, but different ages in different places in their lives. And that's really cool.  Mary: Yeah, that is really cool. What, how many folks can you take at one time?  Heather: It's about 25 in a cast. It's all online. If you go to our website on stage collective.com, there's an auditions page that will show you what we are currently casting for… what opportunities are open. And you can click on the application there. Pretty short application. You upload a headshot, two videos, one minute cuts of two songs, and we accept singers on a rolling basis. So as we receive them, our panel will listen to the auditions and make casting decisions. And we'll cast them in specific types of roles whether it's a lead role or a supporting role, that kind of thing. And once our cast is full, it's full. Mary: All right, so before I let you guys go this afternoon, I want to have each of you give a piece of advice to a young entrepreneur in the arts. And when I… when I use the term entrepreneur, I'm talking about not just people who have created their own businesses, right, because I think that artists by nature are entrepreneurial in spirit because they have to go out and sell themselves you know, to the directors and the producers and the people who are making the decisions about roles and whatnot. So Kat, I'll start with you. Can you talk a little bit about some advice that you would give young artists and entrepreneurs? Katherine: Yeah, so I was thinking about this question earlier. And the fact is, so I have two pieces of advice. But the fact is, when I was thinking about it, I wanted… I was like, how can this advice not sound intimidating? Because the fact is, being an entrepreneur, being an artist, being a human nowadays, it's just hard. It's just really difficult. So there are challenges and they're low moments. But the two pieces of advice that I would say are really important, and I think about this all the time, like probably every single day. The first thing is, you've got to have hard work, dedication and commitment and those things pave your path to success. There are very few exceptions and very few shortcuts to a path to success. It really comes down to hard work, dedication, and commitment. If you want anything bad enough, you have to be ready to put the work in. There is no… there just not a lot of shortcuts. The second piece of advice that I would say… this applies to artists. When I first heard about this concept, it was about being an artist, being a singer, but I feel like it really applies to anyone either an entrepreneur or just a person living their life. I feel like it's really important… I tell my students this all the time, it's really important to establish a small inner circle of trusted people, colleagues, artists, coaches, therapists, friends that are there for you and help you in whatever you're doing, whether it's business, whether it's artistry, whether it's just your friends, but because the fact is, everyone has an opinion. And sometimes there are just too many cooks in the kitchen. And everyone's opinion is not always helpful to you on your journey. So it's important to have those trusted inner circle of people that you can go to and say, hey, like for instance, I have a business coach. I don't get business advice from just every person on the street, but I guarantee you every person on the street has an opinion on how I should run my business. That is not…that is not useful for me on my journey and, and in the worst case scenario, it's actually traumatizing to hear everyone's opinion about you at all times as an artist specifically, everyone has a thought on the way your voice sounds. Everyone has a thought on your performance. And if you listen to every single person who had an opinion about your voice, or your business or the way you're living your life, it would be traumatizing. So it's very useful for me as an artist and an entrepreneur and as a person in general to have an inner circle of people that I trust, that I know I can go to, and that their opinions are valuable to me. They matter and they affect me and everyone else gets a nice, very polite, thank you very much. I Mary: I think we should learn that phrase. Thank you very much and then take what we want, leave what we want, right? Because I believe what you say is so true about everyone's gonna give you an opinion. I don't know how many entrepreneurs I've talked to on this podcast that say that every single one of them have faced naysayers, you know, and if you face too many and you open that circle up too big then it can be paralyzing, in fact, right? Katherine: And I'm not saying that there shouldn't be people that tell you no… that tell you when you're making a mistake. Heather would be the first person to tell me if I was making a mistake, and I appreciate that. I don't build an inner circle based on people who are yes men. And yes women. I build my inner circle based on people that I trust, and that their opinions and their advice is valuable to me.  Mary: Yeah. All right, Heather, why don't you take that question? Heather: Yeah, I'll say that my first piece of advice because I've got two also…goes hand in hand with that, which is after you surround yourself with that inner circle of people whose advice you trust….after that, you have to trust your gut. What do you have without your gut? You know, you have to trust your gut and so take all of that information, hone all of that down and then believe it and trust what your gut is telling you to do. And sometimes it will go against some of the advice that you receive. And that can be really scary, but sometimes you have to do that. And the second piece of advice goes with that, which is don't be afraid to fail. So trusting your gut might mean making a mistake and having to learn from that. We have made mistakes in our business. We have hired people that didn't work out or spent money on things that didn't bring value to our company and to our clients. And those are hard lessons, but we improve… we get better because of them. So trust your gut and the fear is but what if I fail? Well, what if you do? Then you're going to learn and you're going to brush yourself off and do better the next time. So that's my advice for people, for students, for college kids, or especially artists and entrepreneurs. Mary: Yeah. Ladies, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation and I could probably talk to you all afternoon, but I know we're all busy. Katherine: Thank you for having us.  Heather: Thank you so much Mary. Mary: Yeah, absolutely. So just to remind everybody, you can get in touch with them. Just go to onstage collective.com If you want to find out more about those auditions and the kinds of things that they're doing with their students. So that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember, this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. Remember, you can catch the podcast two ways now. You can check us out on our YouTube channel as well as of course listening to wherever you listen to your podcast, but make sure that you don't miss an episode by hitting that subscribe button so you're notified when new episodes are released. This episode is produced by Communication Studies major Isabella Martinez. Thank you for tuning in. I'm Mary Sturgill. Until next time everybody, dream big.

Friends of the Rosary: Today, on the tenth day of Christmas, we honor the Most Holy Name of Jesus, which means Savior. Moreover, the month of January has traditionally been dedicated to the Holy Name of Jesus. This devotion to the Holy Name is deeply rooted in the Sacred Scriptures, especially in the Acts of the Apostles. God Himself gave this name to express His mission and the purpose of His existence. We read in the New Testament how the angel Gabriel revealed that name to Mary: “You shall call His name Jesus.” “His name was called Jesus, which was called by the Angel before He was conceived in the womb.” Luke 2:21. To St. Joseph, the angel not merely revealed the name but explained its meaning: “You shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.” The name of Jesus is a name of love, hope, and joy. Whenever we pronounce it, we ought to bow our heads, as the very name reminds us of the greatest favor we have ever received, salvation. Ave Maria!Jesus, I Trust In You! To Jesus through Mary! + Mikel A. | RosaryNetwork.com, New York • January 3, 2024, Today's Rosary on YouTube | Daily broadcast at 7:30 pm ET

In this episode of the Class E Podcast, Dr. Kasie Whitener and Host, Mary Sturgill explore the fascinating intersection of Taylor Swift's career, entrepreneurship, and the power of love.  From the impact of Taylor's re-recording on the music industry to her savvy business decisions in negotiating streaming rights, the conversation delves into the entrepreneurial lessons embedded in Taylor Swift's journey. Join the discussion as they uncover Taylor Swift's entrepreneurial blueprint, offering valuable insights for leaders, innovators, and dreamers.  Guest: Dr. Kasie Whitener Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez TRANSCRIPT: MARY: Hi there, everyone. You may have noticed that that is not our regular music. And that's because today we are talking about Taylor Swift. Yeah, that's right. More specifically, we are having a discussion about her innovation, her entrepreneurial spirit, and the economic impact that she is having on our country and now that she's started her world tour, probably other countries. So I want to welcome you to this episode of the Class E Podcast all about Taylor Swift. This is the podcast that is brought to you through the partnership with the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And of course, I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. And can I just tell you I've been so looking forward to this conversation that we're gonna have today, and I hope that you enjoy it as much as I've enjoyed researching it and chatting with my friend Kasie Whitener. Dr. Kasie Whitener is joining me today. Kasie is an author. She's an entrepreneur, she teaches entrepreneurship at the Darla Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina. She and her daughter are Swifties. I do believe. Kasie, that you have some proof of that. Yeah, there we go. The friendship bracelets.  She and her daughter are Swifties. And she's my friend of course. So when I thought about this podcast episode topic, of course, I thought about having Kasie on the show to talk with us about that. Kasie, welcome to the show.  KASIE: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and any excuse to talk about entrepreneurship, which I get paid for. And also Taylor Swift which I don't get paid for. This is like it's perfect. It's the perfect combination of both.  MARY: Yeah, I love it.  “It's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me…”  MARY: And of course, she is not the problem. She's our topic today. That's Taylor Swift. She has been in our lives for 17 years, guys. I can't believe it's been that long. We've known her since she was a kid. And now of course as especially with people like Kasie who have children, she is in her children's lives as well, socially. And so today the conversation is going to be about her innovation, her entrepreneurship, her economic impact, as I said, because now her entrepreneurship is bolstering others, not just herself. And Kasie I want to start with…we talked about, you know, her fandom and, and all of that and how she's pulling more fans in every day and I want to start with talking about her marketing. Can you talk about some of the things that you've noticed that she's doing right?  KASIE: Yeah, so you know, I'm hosting this digital marketing class in the honors college right now at the University of South Carolina. And one of the things we have been talking about is online communities, and the ability of online communities to amplify the message of a product, a company, a brand, right? So Taylor Swift very clearly a brand…has put together this Eras tour, which the idea of it is so beautiful, she's got 10 albums, she's walking people through 10 different versions of herself essentially. We're seeing her entire kind of career all onstage at the exact same time. Artists typically come forward… they do the one album that they're promoting right? And they'll play mostly from that album, but in her case, she's decided she's going to do them all and so depending on which show you get to see, you get to see two or three songs from each of the albums.​​​ The fandom has gone crazy online because a lot of people are going to a show… they're seeing three or four songs from Lover, they're seeing two songs from Folklore, they're seeing one song from you know…the version she put in the movie theater only had one song from our favorite album, which is the one that she released over the summer, Speak Now Taylor's version, and so when we you know you kind of get obsessed with it. You're like, oh, this is my album. I can't wait and then you get to the show, and you're like, oh, she only gave me one song for my era, you know? And so then people just keep coming back for more and more. So everything around the excitement of it. This online kind of cult following for her, the community that has grown up around it. She also drops a bunch of hints and creates these little kind of Easter egg nuggets that people started building up these conspiracy theories and well she said this at this time and she was wearing a blue dress on this day and I can't even pretend to keep up with all of that except that it all shows up in my Instagram.  MARY: Mine too. And my Tik Tok and my Tik Tok.The other thing is with those little easter eggs…and there's a Tik Tok video going right now that came up on my feed last night about the Easter eggs. I think this is brilliant on her part because like you said: one, she's creating that community, that family. She talks directly to her fans that other artists…not in a way that any other artist does right now I don't think or has in the past I should say. But the Easter eggs… we all love a good mystery right? And we all love trying to figure things out so she has us intrigued and on the edge of our seats.  KASIE: Well, the way that she's predicting what she's going to do next. So everybody kind of says, Well, are we going to see this next? Are we going to see that next? So of course, I know we're going to talk about this on the business side. But she's been rerecording some of her earlier albums because she didn't own the master recordings. But she did own the copyright of the music itself. And so she re-recorded them so that she could then profit off the albums being sold, right? So we have all these albums where they're Taylor's version albums. And the Taylor's version albums are the ones that she actually re-recorded, which there's a whole other sideline there about really that is because when you get to take a look at your own work and do it again, you're a different person. You're a different artist, and it's just been incredible to listen to how her voice has changed. And sorry..I went crazy fangirl, down the rabbit hole with that one.  MARY: No, it's true though. No, I totally agree. It's true. I was listening to something, maybe her it was her first version of 1989 or something. And, or maybe it was, I can't remember which one it was quite honestly. But I was listening to the first version of her first album. And then I was listening to the newer version. I believe it was the first album. I might be wrong about that. I was listening to a version of one of her albums. And then the other version and her voice of course has matured because she started when she was a kid, right? And we can see the same evolution and other people we've known who've grown up from kids. I see this in Kelly Clarkson who can sing anything right? But I'm also seeing it specifically in our girl Taylor, and just the re-releasing of those with her, with the maturity in her voice and the way that she sings certain lines I've noticed and the different clips that I've seen online and stuff is totally different too and people are here for it.  KASIE: Yeah, well so the two…I think the two songs that we hear on that first album that are so… you hear “You Belong With Me,” which is the song about the girl in the bedroom, you know, and the boy that doesn't realize that she should be more than a friend right? There's that song and then the other song is the “Love Story” song which is about the guy getting on one knee and asking her to marry her right? These two songs… very wistful, very teenagery, teenage-y like this kind of first love ish kind of sound. And then when we hear it in Taylor's version, it's this kind of backward looking, nostalgic sort of feel to it, and I gotta tell you, I think Gen X is here for it. Like I think when we first heard those songs, we were too old for those songs, right? Like they were teenager songs and like the turn of the early 2000s, mid 2000s. Like we were past that right? And you get into now this age and she re records them and you hear that nostalgia to them and you're like yes, that's the voice I'm looking for on those particular songs. So I definitely think she swept in an older generation with the Taylor's version on some of these older versions.  MARY: Yeah, I completely agree with that. We're both of Gen X right? And I have been swept up with all of this. I mean, I've always been a Taylor fan because I mean her poetry, her lyrics are just… No one writes a song like she does except maybe Dolly Parton, right? In my book. That's my personal opinion. Which is why she has a gazillion awards and that kind of thing because she's recognized by her peers as a good storyteller, as a good songwriter. And it's that storytelling, I think that is the key to her marketing, right? So it's the songs , the lyrics, it's the storytelling with laying the Easter eggs for her fans and giving them hints about things when things are coming out and she and her PR team. You know, we know Tree Paine's her publicist, they are brilliant. They make a brilliant team. I think of Tree Paine as the Olivia Pope of the music industry.  KASIE: You're not wrong about that. So I think you're right about there being… the marketing piece here is knowing exactly who your audience is, and what they want, and giving them what they want. And it's interesting because I've been listening to these other podcasts lately that are talking about how the danger of pop culture is that it gives us exactly what we want. And so it's not necessarily stretching us or making us better people and this kind of thing. And it's almost like Taylor's like I get it, I get there are people for whom that's the thing they do, right there are philosophers, there's whoever else that's out there that wants to make us all better people. What I'm here to do is give you exactly what you want, which are the stories that you recognize, the lyrics that you like, the poetry that you're looking for, and she's delivering. I think right now she's firing on all cylinders.  MARY: Yeah, I agree and when I talk to my students about the importance of storytelling because I teach storytelling and its place in marketing, these are the kinds of stories that I want my students to come up with, right? And if successful entrepreneurs come up with these kinds of stories, we just had a podcast recently with Chad Price of Kettlebell Kings, and they were making that online community before the athletic communities or the workout communities that we see that are online now. And they were doing that back in 2012. So I think that's… and of course, Taylor has been doing it since day one just about….  KASIE: Well, let's talk about that online community growth over Taylor. Because I think it's so organic. I think that people go to talk about what they're interested in and what they care about. And she's been quoted as saying things like anybody who makes you feel bad for the things that make you happy, that's like the worst kind of person, right? And so instead, she's encouraging this idea that people should come together and talk about things that make them happy and that's the feel, that's the vibe in the Taylor Swift fandom..is this sense of this makes me happy and and sharing it with other people makes me happy. And when other people are happy, I also feel happy. Like there's this tremendous joy in this community, which I think is something unique that we don't see in a lot of other fandoms and I'll be honest to say like, I'm not in a lot of other fandoms. I'm not in the Star Wars fandom. I'm not in, but my kid is in a lot of fandoms and her take on some of them is like there's some purity tests to it, right? Like are you really a Star Wars fan? Do you know this, that, or this, right? But you don't get that from Swifties.  Swifties aren't out there being like how Swiftie are you? Do you know this about that? Do you know this about? Instead they're just like, welcome! What can I share with you that you don't know?  MARY: And have a friendship bracelet!  KASIE: Have a bracelet! Yeah.  MARY: I love that. Um, is there anything else from a marketing standpoint that you've noticed or that you've even talked about in your classes with that, that our audience should understand about maybe some takeaways that they could take away from Taylor to their own businesses?  KASIE: Yeah, so marketing is all about channels, right? Figuring out how to reach your customer, how to get the right message in front of them at the right time. So understanding what their buying cycle looks like, giving them, you know, awareness, giving them a reason to make your choice that you want them to make, right. All of these kinds of things. And I think what Taylor does a good job of is using all the channels available to her. So she has her music, obviously, right she's got video appearances. Anytime she's on, you know, interviews or talk shows or anything like that promoting things. She's done her own video content. So if you haven't been to see any of these videos, the short films that she's made to get over these videos, like take yourself down the rabbit hole because it's totally worth it. But then on top of that all the social media channels too, where she's purposely using different social media channels to drop different information and trying to bring all those fans access to her no matter where they are, which I think is a huge marketing lesson for anybody that's doing marketing. Meet your customers where they are, and bring them the messages that they need to be able to choose you and choose your product.  MARY: Right. And that movie, the Eras movie, that's doing exactly that. We're going to talk a little bit about the economic impact of that a little bit later, but that's doing exactly that.  KASIE: To meet them where they are, yeah.  MARY: She's meeting them where they are because not everyone can afford concert tickets or to go to the cities. I mean, we have a lot of rural people in America who love Taylor Swift, right? Not everybody lives in a city. And so she's giving everyone the opportunity to get, you know, the feeling of the tour to be able to experience that in some way in the theaters, which I absolutely love.  KASIE: I gotta say my favorite reel about the Eras tour movie was the video of her actually watching it. Like, this is the first time Taylor Swift has seen Taylor Swift on tour. You see her in the movie theater, just like, yay! She's as excited as everybody else. And I can't even imagine what that must be like to watch what you've created there live for people to see and enjoy. Well,  MARY: Well, and I want to point out too that that is not an act. You know, people see through when things like that or an act. The joy that she shares with people is truly her and who she is. I mean, I don't know her… like I haven't met her, but I feel like I have. And that is a great skill for anyone in the public eye to have or anyone who is the face of the company to have because that can transcend not just the music industry or the creative industry, right?  KASIE: I think the critical word there is authenticity, and especially if you're trying to appeal to Gen Z. Gen Z is so cynical about what they see everywhere. I mean, online and politicians, in person, in the classroom, like Gen Z is so cynical, because they've been so overexposed, right? They've seen so much and authenticity really resonates with them, and they and they pick it out. And I think Taylor Swift just has a gift of being authentic all the time. She is…what you see is what you get. She is who she is right? And um, people will say that. Other celebrities will meet her and talk about or they'll just be like, it's just amazing how kind and gentle she is and how she's just genuinely interested. And whether or not you've enjoyed your experience either at the tour or wherever they are like, it's… people are blown away by her.  MARY: I think one of the things that show that is the growth in her Instagram following. You know, when we first had this conversation about doing this podcast, I checked her Instagram following and it was at 265 million followers. Just in the past month, it's grown to 276 million followers.  KASIE: Wow.  MARY: Yeah, that's a lot of growth.  KASIE: That's 10 million people jumping on board in the last month.  MARY: Exactly, exactly.  KASIE: That's wild.  MARY: So I would like to get a look at her Instagram stats because that's… just based on that number, it's gotta be crazy.  “I promise that you'll never find another like me…”  KASIE: There's this great viral version of Taylor, while they're writing this song, and she's sitting on the couch and she sings it, she puts her hand up like that she gets really excited about it, and it's in the writing process. It's well before it's ever been recorded. It's like as she's putting down the lyrics for the first time ever. And I mean, you can't stage that, like it's, it's clearly not staged. It's obviously spontaneous, and her joy in the process and how excited she is when it clicks for her, and then we hear what it turns into right afterwards. But I think that that really resonates with people too. That creative process piece really resonates too.  MARY: And that's part of the story too, because she's showing behind the scenes of how she does her work. Right. And that draws us in. I get that same feeling. I understand that feeling when she puts her hand up in the air and is like I'm onto something right here.  KASIE: Yes.  MARY: Any creative knows that feeling. One of my students the other day, or even this morning, one of my students figured out how to do this great thing for her video. And I did it for her basically I was like, woo hoo, you know, whatever.  MARY: Yeah, so proud that they have that moment where everything just comes together like that. So I want to shift now to talk about her Eras tour because we've been talking about it a little bit but I want to dive into the economic impact of this thing. Right? Because we had three great tours I think going on this past summer, Beyonce, Pink, and of course Taylor Swift and the economic impact, specifically of Taylor Swift, since she's our topic today, has just been crazy. The overall impact of the tour should be around, and this is the United States part of it, North American part of it, $2.2 billion just in ticket sales, right? That doesn't include the hotels, the merch, the food, all that other stuff.  KASIE: And don't forget the hospitality tax that everybody's paying, right? So all these cities that have posted or that have had this massive 11% or whatever it is hospitality tax, you know, yuck it up communities, but you're getting all of that too.  MARY: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So based on research that I found, I believe this was from Time Magazine, maybe… typically every $100 spent on a live performance generates an estimated $300 and ancillary local spending on things like hotels, food, transportation, I forgot transportation a minute ago. But for the Eras tour…That's just a regular tour, right? For the Eras tour, it's anywhere from $1300 to $1500.  KASIE: Per $100 spent.  MARY: Per $100 spent.  KASIE: Nice.  MARY: Yeah, so that's boosting all of those local economies.  KASIE: All the restaurants, all the hotels, yeah, all the transportation. So Uber, you know, taxi services. Everybody else. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk a little bit about the structure of the Eras Tour. So what I think what sparked our first conversation about this was how impressed I am with the way the Eras Tour was built. So usually, and you can watch these videos where they talk about, they break down the economics of a tour. Usually a team will go out on and you'll see the artist kind of zigzagging across the country. They're hitting, you know, sort of regions, maybe but they're basically going all over the map right? And the Eras tour is designed very intentionally right? It was designed years out actually. Where it was okay, we're gonna go to Atlanta, we're going to play for Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday night, and now everybody that was performing those three nights in a row is now off, right Monday through Friday as we travel from one place to the next place. Then we're gonna go to the next town. We're going to set up and we're going to perform Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night, right? And so we have these three shows in one place performing three nights back to back, which is like an easy Broadway to schedule, right? Like it's an easy schedule versus like a Broadway schedule, but they're doing it right? And the setup is there on Friday, and it stays up through the whole weekend. And then they bring it down and then they travel on Monday, right? This and they've been very intentional about the cities they've gone to and how they've moved around the country. This has never been done before this particular way or something on this kind of scale. And it's the economy of it. The idea that they're not wasting gas, they're not wasting hours, they're not wasting transportation time. They're not they're not there's no waste here, right, which is so compelling to me.  MARY: Yeah, let's remind everybody that normally, in how this is different, is that a concert will go to one place for one night, and then pick up and go to the next place for the next night. And so you have all that picking up and moving. And in this particular case, they're saving all of that picking up and moving…that time, that energy the people power, but she employs hundreds of people, if not 1000s…  KASIE: The jobs are there, right, and you mentioned the economic impact like that's there. It doesn't cost less necessarily except that they are maximizing the economy of being in one space for three days in a row and selling and those shows are selling out all three shows in every place, right? So yeah, I mean, I think from a design perspective, when we talk about an industry in general, entrepreneurship, always, it's about disrupting the industry. So if you take a look at what's happening in our industry, this is very blue ocean strategy stuff. All of you business nerds out there, just Google Blue Ocean Strategy. It'll say like, what are, what is not going well in our industry? What does our industry not do well? And one of the things that music industry does not do well is show to show to show to show, because there's just so much like this venue is not available, that town's not available. We're using planes. We're using buses. We're all these different things, right? And she really got into a place and said, Look, we're gonna do this well, and in order to do it well we're gonna have to book it several years out, we're gonna have to plan you know, this far ahead. And I want to say they started doing this like 2020 is when she started booking this tour.  MARY:  Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so and planning of course before that, even before. I mean, she, she probably was thinking about this years ago, because I think she really thinks that far ahead. In her head she does.  KASIE: More than likely 17 years old. You know what I'm gonna do when I'm 30?  MARY: Exactly when I'm 30 this is what's gonna happen. Right. Um, we were talking a minute ago about the impact of her re-recording. We all know Scooter Braun bought her masters and Kelly Clarkson tweeted to her redo them, you own the copyright, right? The initial releases, especially her first album sold over like $10 million, 2 million copies, or brought in $10,000,000, 1989 brought in 10 million, but now she's re-releasing those and they're making that much money again if not more in some cases.  KASIE: The second time around.  MARY: The second time around. Taylor's version. So unlike other artists who haven't done this, they release it, they release an album and yay, they get all the money and the economic impacts of all you know, all that entails. But now she's doing it round two.  KASIE: So what's interesting about this and again, like we go back to this concept of Blue Ocean Strategy. What do people in my industry not do well? And one of the things that artists typically don't do well is they don't capitalize on reusability for their songs, right? But streaming services have taught us that people don't they don't need to own the song. They just want to hear the song, right? And so as you look at okay, streaming services, there's all the there… The people who own the master copies are making money on the streaming services, you know, .000001, you know, penny, per play or whatever. Okay, here's all these artists that are like, what am I going to do about that? Like, it's just it is what it is right? And instead, you see Taylor go well, number one, I don't want Scooter Braun making all that money off of me for the streaming services, no matter how much it is. And number two, here's the thing I can do about it, which is I'm going to release a new version of something I know people already love. And this I mean, this feels like something out of the Disney playbook. When you go… Disney's got their animated Beauty and the Beast. They've got their live action, Beauty and the Beast, they've got their Broadway Beauty and the Beast, right? Like they had their TV version of Beauty and the Beast like they took that Beauty and the Beast and they've ran it for whatever it's worth right? And so that's not new necessarily, but the way she's gone about doing it to be able to monetize existing property, things that you already do have possession of, and then find a new way to package it. I think it's just genius.  MARY: Yeah, and I read also somewhere that because of the Ers tour…  obviously streaming of her music and this happens for all artists but in particular, since we're talking about Taylor Swift… if they if they're having a concert, especially one that's so huge, like this one, right, the streaming of their music goes way up. So then that of course has the other economic impact of raising more money, right? For the artist and for whoever gets a piece of that pie. Right? So I think that's super interesting is that we can't leave that out of the economic impact as well when we talk about that.   KASIE: Another one of the channels when we were talking before about channels. So on streaming services like Spotify, you can create your own playlists, right? Some of the most popular playlists are fan created playlists. Taylor's got fan-created playlists that are replacing the original versions with the Taylor's version as they come out. So you're not getting both versions of “Love Story.” As soon as the new version came out, the old one was gone. And so it's like they're erasing her digitally. They're erasing these old versions digitally. You can still access them. They're still on Spotify. But the fans are saying those aren't the ones we listen to anymore. We only listen to Taylor's version.  MARY: And they're on that train. They're on that Taylor train.  KASIE: They're all bought in.  MARY: And we're going to only listen to the new stuff that's Taylor's version. That's our stuff. And I think that that circles back around to her marketing and her building that community and the positivity that she puts out there and that her fans kind of feed off of right? You know, one of the things that makes her so inspirational to me is her generosity, right? We've heard the stories of every city that she's been in with the Eras tour. She's donated 1000s and 1000s of dollars. Nobody's disclosed the amount but we know it's a lot to every food bank in the city where she's had a concert. And that, that says a lot because that has its own economic impact… we talked about the financial gain of people buying stuff and going to hotels and restaurants and stuff, but this has another economic impact on those cities.  KASIE: Yeah, I think so. It wouldn't surprise anybody who's a Taylor Swift fan to know that she's, you know, overseeing some of these decisions that are made at the concert level, right? So we don't know how many of these are Taylor Swift decisions necessarily, but it does feel like it comes from an overall vibe. So if you think of like a corporation having corporate values, what are the corporate values and does this corporation always act within their values? And in Taylor Swift, if Taylor Swift is a corporation, one of the values is generosity. And so where does that generosity manifest itself? And it is of course in charitable donations, it is in economic impact, it is in bonusing your own employees, caring for your own employees, those kinds of things. And so yeah, I don't think it would surprise anybody to know that Taylor Swift is living her values all the time.  MARY: Right. And it's a great example to other leaders and whatever industry it doesn't matter the industry because you mentioned taking care of her employees. We heard about the bonuses that she gave, not just her truck drivers, but all of her employees. So like $55 million I don't know many people that would take $55 million out of their own pocket and spread it around to people that work for them.  KASIE: Well, two it speaks to this… So as a Gen X-er are right, like I kind of hate to give it, you know, the millennial credit right? But I think it speaks to this sense in that generation that enough is as good as a feast. And so I don't need $55 million more. You know what I'm saying like, what else is that money going to do for me except just be more money, right? And so I can't take it with me like there's this kind of sense and I will give 100% the millennials the credit for that. They have a sense that enough is as good as a feast. And so when somebody has so much more than they really believe that they need right? We see that with Mr. Beast. There's a lot of these kinds of digital entrepreneurs that are recognizing, hey, I want to take care of myself and my family. But beyond that, I want to take care of all the people around me right? And that generosity, I think is generational.  MARY: That's the generosity that I wish would permeate throughout all of society.  KASIE: I think we're gonna see more of it honestly I think and like I said, I'm giving credit to the millennials. They're not all that way, but a lot of the leaders in that generation are and I think Gen Z is going to be the most generous generation we've ever seen.  MARY: I completely agree with that. My students every day… they just impress me so much and surprise me. Speaking of… one of my students is my producer. Isabella, pop in here and show everybody and say hi.  KASIE: Hi Isabella!  MARY: She's the one. And for all of our podcast listeners, she's the one that makes this podcast sound so good. So we thank her tremendously. She graduates by the way, she graduates in May and I'm going to hate to lose her but somebody out there is gonna get a really good employee, who's very creative, who's just on top of things. So.  KASIE: And here's an opportunity for somebody in your ranks that maybe gets to move into Isabella's spot.  MARY: Absolutely, absolutely. I love that you pointed that out. We're talking about the economic impact. $4.6 billion to the local economies, according to QuestionPro, is what her tour should be when all is said and done, should have kind of input into local economies.  KASIE: And remember this isn't in a vacuum, right? This is a community effort. This is all the people who are taylor Swift fans coming forward spending their money, wanting to be part of something that is bigger than themselves, wanting to give their money to the community like wanting to go out to eat, wanting to make it a thing, right? Like all this stuff, so it's not…it is Taylor Swift. It is the tour. It is of course like hey, thank you Taylor, for creating this amazing company. But the key to it is that she's providing something people want, and people are willing to part with their money in order to get that thing and I think that's really critical because she's getting some heat from certain elements of like, how expensive the tickets are and like how much it costs and you mentioned before, because I want to maybe this segues into our conversation about the movie, about people not being able to afford to go and she gets some heat for that. There are people who don't, maybe they don't recognize the experience that is the Taylor Swift Eras tour, so they don't feel like you know, this is just not worth it. Nobody should charge that much. Blah. Blah, blah. Market economics tell us that people will pay the value that they believe it's worth right? And so they're willing to pay this money. That's them being willing to…don't feel sorry for these ticket buyers, right? They're willing to do that right?  MARY: They're choosing.  KASIE: Exactly it's a choice. She didn't make anybody spend that money on those tickets. And then she put the movie out. And the movie tickets which I love. First of all, the tickets are $19.89 So this is one of those Easter eggs, right? She charged 1989 for her tickets. When the tickets went on tour, we found out first of all, we thought it was only gonna be one night. So as soon as we found out they were going on tour we did not get to see the Eras tour. We fell in the group of people that was like we don't have two grand to go see this right? Not that I would in any way not spend that money if I did. I would 100% spend that money if I had it but anyway, all that to say when the movie was coming out… we're huge movie people. So Holly and I were super excited. We jump on the app. We're gonna buy the tickets. And when we see it, I just turned it to her like, it's $19.89 and we lost it, like, cackling that she had priced them at 1989. Like, I mean, come on. Come on Tay.  MARY: Yeah, but it's another one… It's genius exactly, because it created that feeling in you guys that you are now even more excited because you're like this is right on right on what we expect from her. KASIE: Oh, it's on brand, like it's fully on brand and it makes you feel like because you get it when you see it's 1989 you're like, oh, I get it. Good job, Taytay, right? Like and then you feel like you're part of this squad because you know this thing that other people don't know. I think the same when we showed up to the actual movie theaters… we're walking in, and everybody's got their bracelets on. People are singing along like nobody's telling you to shhh we're watching a movie like it's not.. We didn't have one of the big dancy theater ones. I think if we had gone to a later show, maybe but we went to an earlier show. There were some small kids like we kind of… people didn't want to stand up in front of people and not let them be able to see so we just all sat and watched but, man we sang. I mean we definitely sang.  MARY: And you're not alone. Everybody around the country. So the movie worldwide has grossed over $123 million.I mean, it's just, these numbers are just mind boggling, right? It's reached $90 million within like the first week I think..it's crazy, right? KASIE: Can I tell you where I think this is the only mistake I think Taylor Swift may have made? MARY: Oh yeah. Let's talk about that.  KASIE: Are you ready? MARY: Because we learn from our mistakes, right? KASIE: So the Eras tour movie grosses $129 million dollars,can you imagine if they're had been six versions of that movie?  MARY: Oh good lord. Yeah.  KASIE: If she had issued… you never know which version you're gonna get. Remember when clue came out? And there were three things to clue. Yeah. So you went to see it three times because you weren't sure which ending they were going to show in that theater is a thing that needs to be done more often. And with the era's tour movie, she had a chance to do it, especially because there were shows that she recorded where she had played more songs. Like I said, we only got the one song from our favorite album. There were shows where she played more songs from that. So why not get film from a bunch of different shows and piece together three or four or six, but like say you get three, three versions of the error story. And you don't know so you show up like not sure is this going to be the Argentina one? Is this going to be the Indianapolis one? Is it…I don't know which one I'm watching. I'm just watching one of the three Eras movies that may be showing today. Right? Come on, we'd be back. We've got 1989 every time.  MARY: Right. Dr. Kasie Whitener. That is why I have you on this show. Because you bring up things like that. I love it. I love it. I love it.  KASIE: It's just a missed opportunity. Just a missed opportunity. It's not a criticism. It's just an opportunity. MARY: Absolutely. And who knows, maybe she's gonna listen to this podcast and check out that missed opportunity. And if not, maybe somebody else will.  KASIE: I think we get the world tour. I think she's going to do another movie. It's going to be whatever she does overseas.  MARY: I think you're probably right about that. If I had to guess as a matter of fact, I also heard that she is also extending some dates after she comes back to the States again. So we'll see if that pans out. I don't know for sure if that's true or not.  MARY: But now we're coming to my favorite topic of the podcast. And that is the love, the romance… KASIE: We're here for it MARY: You're right. We're all sitting here. I swear to God after the Buenos Aires video came out and of her changing the lyrics, of her running up to Travis at the end. Literally, I'm watching it from every angle that I could find on everywhere and I'm not alone because there's a gazillion Tik Tokers who are talking about the same thing. And we are all on even as old women…all of us Gen X-ers are loving this.  KASIE: Yes right here for it.  MARY: We're here for it. And I know the reason I'm here for it is because I love love. I've have always been romantic. But we're here for it and that is turning into some economic impact with the NFL. And with anything related to Travis and Jason Kelce, you know, I mean, right after she showed up at the Chiefs game, their podcast went to number one.  KASIE: Yep. MARY:  The sales of his Travis Kelce, his jersey have gone up 400% You know, their song that they just released the brothers Christmas song… number one on iTunes charts even beating Taylor, right, in some places. So that economic impact is spreading beyond just the world of Swifties and spreading to the NFL, and they're eating it up.  KASIE: So there's two possibilities here right there's the cynical side, which is like this is a publicity stunt. The Kelce brothers organized this… their podcast was launching, their documentaries launching, blah blah blah publicity stunt, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, okay. Fine. If that's the case, there's a publicity stunt. I'm here for it.  MARY: Me too.  KASIE: I'm all in, it's fine. It doesn't have to be real. Like I'm into to read the story. Live the story. Love the story. I'm fine with it. It doesn't have to be real. So that's fine. So many haters that are out there. They're like oh, they're just doing it for, you know, for record sales. Okay. Oh, they're just doing it to get more. Okay. I have no problem with it.  MARY: Whatever. Yeah. Me either. I don't think that's true. KASIE: By all means, okay. So there's that one side. And again, that's fine. And then the other side is this could be real. Right? And I think that this could be real side is really compelling for a number of reasons of course because through her lyrics, through her songs,  all the sad stories. I just watched her go through all this right and and of course, she gets torn down to the media for two reasons, one for serial dating and then the flip of it is for writing songs about being a serial dater, right. And then it seems like what we're seeing, and again, it could be a publicity stunt. But it seems like what we're seeing is somebody who has a career in his own right has plenty of competence in his own right, feels perfectly good about himself as a human being in his own right, and is glad to share a spotlight with her and it's almost in awe of her and how wonderful she is and that worship that all of us feel for her… when we see him demonstrate it to is gratifying because we think she deserves it. And we think she deserves somebody who believes she deserves it and is not ashamed or unwilling to give it. MARY: Right exactly. And who's confident… I think you've hit on it right there… who's confident enough to stand he's, granted I'm not taking anything from Travis, but stand in her shadow a bit and really support her right because she's now a billionaire and not because she's a billionaire. But because she's so creative because she's so talented. She's gotten to that financial place because of her talents. And because of her work ethic, right?  KASIE: Oh the work ethic, easy.  MARY: The work ethic is crazy, right? And so which we also aspire to but I don't I don't know about that.  KASIE: She's a once in a lifetime talent. And I'm perfectly fine with that.  MARY: Exactly. I want to be Taylor Swift. But the great thing is we can learn from it. Right? And all the NFL is learning from it right now. Right?  KASIE: I gotta say there's two pieces of that that I think are really brilliant. I know your classes look at digital media… look at digital governorship too and the first one was with the New Heights podcast, watching Travis Kelce watch the video of the couple that had been the Travis Taylor couple. I don't know if you saw this right. MARY: Yes I did.  KASIE: So first of all, to back up just a little bit… MARY: It was Jax and her… putting him on the map… KASIE: But yeah, so there's a big trend on the internet of women talking about how Taylor Swift put Travis Kelce on the map people you know I don't even watch the NFL but I'll watch it for Taylor Swift like it became this like running joke around women who know better, but are intentionally trapping their husbands into like, you know, oh, I don't even know who this person is. Like, I mean, she made him famous. And these men just like losing their minds, because they're angry. She's not even a thing. It doesn't even matter. Okay, so that piece of it was really funny when the NFL changed their twitter handle to Taylor's version, right and so then you get the mash up of her saying. So now when you see it says Taylor's version it's because I own it. And then they show the NFL thing. This is Taylor's version. Taylor owns the NFL, like, like all of this was really great publicity for the NFL. Really great publicity for Taylor Swift and for Travis Kelce. And I think again, even if it is a publicity stunt, I'm here for it because it was clever. It was new, it felt fresh and it felt real and authentic. And then the other part was, of course, like I said with the Halloween costume. Jax is talking about her putting him on the map. And he just falls for it, the boyfriend supposedly falls for it And he's like. Oh, come on. He actually puts his face on the map. And then Travis is watching and he goes oh, I get it. She put me on the map. That's pretty funny. Like he's in on a joke. It's okay with him. He's not feeling ashamed, but he's not wanting to hide it and pull it off. He's not throwing a temper tantrum about it. And that just shows this like grown up man behaving like a grown-up man. And I think I want to be here for that too. I want to see more of that on the internet.  MARY: We could have a whole nother podcast about just the romance and how Travis is a grown up man and the right person or the right type of person for her. They have the same energy. I don't want to go down this rabbit hole but they have the same energy. He matches her energy. If you saw the video of him at the Buenos Aires concert on his off week, he was cheering her on just like she was cheering him on at the game she went to right.  KASIEL Yeah, well you see videos of him when she's not even around. Like Travis just being Travis is that way. There's a kind of like goof factor to it. There's a kind of so much confidence and who they are and how they are. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. This is good. And again, this is a love story. We're all here for it. We want the best thing for both of them either, of course like nobody's over here going. If they break up, we're gonna be pissed at them. It's not like that, everyone's like along for the ride. We're just glad to see two people who we all believe deserve happily ever after maybe maybe seeking one.  MARY: Yeah, now we can't ignore the... I don't want to go down this rabbit hole but we can't ignore the people who are the naysayers and I just ignore… I mean, we can't ignore them. That's the way I should have said that. We can't ignore them and I do ignore them. Because like you said, the whole marketing, everything is brilliant about it. And just to talk a little bit to remind some of our viewers or listeners about the impact it's had on the NFL, not just the ticket jersey. The Jersey sales but ticket sales to actual games have gone up. Where people, the Chiefs games in particular, or even the Eagles games where people thought Taylor might be at the Eagles game. A few weeks ago those ticket sales went up and of course ESPN and the viewing viewership on TV went up as well, which of course, increases financial gains there for ESPN and NFL both. Right? Yeah.  KASIE: So it's just a good thing all around. And I think for the haters that are out there, either sick of it or they don't know anything about it or they don't care about it. They don't want to talk about it, all of that, you know, it goes back to what Taylor said about if somebody is gonna make you feel bad about the thing that gets you excited, then that's just the worst kind of person. Like, why would you make people feel bad for the thing that gets them excited? It makes them happy, like, just let them be happy. You know, like, I just, yeah, just… MARY: That's why all of us are drawn to her because of that mentality. Right? And, and we know that she's been through it. And to come out and to see the happiness on her face right now. Just the joy and the… she's at peace right now. Right? She's loving everything that she's doing. And then when she's with Travis it's just great. I could just talk about it forever.  KASIE: But I'm here for it. MARY: I know we've gone down a rabbit hole a little bit. For our listeners and our viewers. Hopefully you've come along right along with us. But we also have given some golden nuggets here in this podcast, some Easter eggs if you will, not as clever as Taylor has done them. But things that you can take with you. Take away. Always look, I tell my students all the time, look for the blueprint in your story. Look for the blueprint that people can take with them into their lives. And we try to do that with this podcast every episode that we have, and talking to people about their stories and having conversations like we are with Dr. Kasie Whitener here. And so there are things that you can take and apply to your business or figure out how to apply to your business or your entrepreneurial venture whatever wherever and whatever stage you're in, right? KASIE: I think the most useful thing is, it's a climb. I mean, it's a climb. Taylor Swift didn't wake up at 17. And have an impact of billions of dollars, you know, on global markets. That's not how things worked out, but she's been working. She had a vision for what she wanted to do, for how she wanted her career to go. When she left country music, she wanted to sing her own songs. That was a huge risk. I remember being in a conversation with my brother, uh, when she left when she decided to walk away from her label and country music because she wanted to sing her own songs and he was like she's gonna fail and I was like, I don't know, I wouldn't bet against her. I'll be honest with you. I wouldn't bet against Taylor Swift. And here she is, you know, having rewritten the rules in her own industry to fit things the way she wants it to work. And she and she gets knocked down. She just gets back up again. I mean, things that should… if you think of the Kanye…I mean, it's humiliation, basically, public and professional humiliation. And she just came right back. Right? And so, and I know that's not.. I say that she came right back making it sound like it's easy.  MARY: It took two years for her to… KASIE: And the way she wrote about it and the way she talked about it. The way she processed it and brought us all along for that journey too because who she is as a songwriter. You know when we see all of that I think that's why we want such good things for her now. If you know her through her music that well then you go okay, we're at the climax of the story now, right, where all the things are supposed to be working out the way they're supposed to work out. And I want to see the beautiful things happening for her.  MARY: So yeah, oh, I love that. I do want to circle back around to the idea of bringing people along with you. Because one of the two things she's done recently that I think we all should point out is that she's used the status that she has to help. I mean, obviously, we talked about philanthropic ventures and things like that, but in her contract with Universal and in her contract, she made them agree to give more artists more percentage of their streaming rights, you know that you get paid so much for every time you stream, it''s pennies on the dollar, right, right. But in that negotiation process, she got Universal to give all of their clients, all of their musicians, all of their bands, singers, everybody, more percentage from their streaming rights. That's huge. Because they knew what they would lose.  KASIE: Yeah, exactly. It's industry leadership but saying I have a position of power and I'm gonna use it to lead the industry and I think that's a very mature place for her to be. It was mature for her to walk away from country music when she was however old, you know, in her 20s. But this is a really mature thing for her to do this late in her career, even to say I'm an industry leader, I have industry power, and I'm going to use that power to improve the lives of all of my fellow workers.I mean, you don't need a union when you've got somebody in a powerful position that willing to work for you. Right?  MARY: And willing to work for you is the key thing there. And then the same thing with the Eras tour and the movie, right? She bypassed the studios to get it out to the theaters because the studios wanted to take a higher percentage than she knew that she would be able to get if she just dealt directly with theaters. I KASIE: I love how aware we are of the inner workings of Hollywood and movie theaters now, because of Taylor Swift. Like I love the visibility that we now all have to the system and where everybody takes their cut, because Taylor Swift was very clear about I'm doing it this way and here's why. And I think that if you're in an industry where somebody that powerful is calling you out for doing the wrong thing, or for behaving in the wrong way, you got to take a look at yourself and be like, Okay, our business model just got called out for being shady and we need to figure out a way to… and you just have to compete. I think that's the biggest part is like we see industries where competition has been driven out by bad practices, you know, just just bad practices. And when you have somebody like Taylor Swift come in and say we're just not going to do things that way. You have to compete. And I think sometimes companies get a little bit slack, a little bit lazy, they start taking things for granted, and they get caught blindsided and they're bad about it, and they'll say terrible things about it. But at the end of the day, if you're not competing, you're not winning in your market. You know, you got nobody to blame but yourself.   MARY: I think we could drop the mic on that one. Because that's true, right? Yeah. Dr. Kasie Whitener and my friend, thank you so much for joining me. This has been a great conversation. We could talk about this for hours, but she has to go pick up her little Swiftie, her daughter. Kasie, thanks so much.   KASIE: Thank you so much for having me, Mary. And anytime you want to talk entrepreneurship, I'm your gal. And if you add Taylor Swift, I'm here for it, I'm absolutely here for it.   MARY: We love it. Absolutely. Thank you so much.   MARY: All right, Class E Podcast listeners, that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember that  this is the podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. This is produced by our student producer Isabella Martinez, who you got to see in this podcast episode. By the way, remember that you can find us wherever you listen to your podcast, and on YouTube as well. So please subscribe, hit those subscribe buttons wherever is most convenient for you. But until next time, everybody take a page out of Taylor's book and dream big.      

Only 2% of children who have a mother incarcerated will graduate from college, and this needs to change. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we sat down with Jennifer Jones, the founder and executive director of the non-profit organization, Beauty Marks for Girls, which aims to disrupt this incarceration statistic with its devoted mentorship program. Jones shares her personal story and emphasizes the power of empathy and perseverance along with the importance of taking care of yourself.   Guest website: https://beautymarks4girls.com/ Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   Transcript of the Show MARY: Hi, everyone, welcome to the Class E Podcast. I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. This is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communications Studies Department here at Furman University. This week I've been so excited all this week for this guest because you are going to be excited after you hear this conversation. You will want to.. don't walk, you will want to run to an event where she is listed as the speaker and after we have this conversation, you're gonna know exactly why I said that. Jennifer Jones, welcome to the show.  JENNIFER: Thank you Mary for having me. I'm excited.  MARY: Yeah. I'm excited for you to be here because Jennifer did a speech at one of the women's events that I went to. What was it last spring or something like that? Yeah. And I was just sitting in the audience and I was…I probably shouldn't admit this, but I was just crying. Because I was so touched and so inspired by her story. So I wanted to have her on to, you know, do the same for you guys. Right? So Jennifer, let's talk a little bit about your story. You've started a nonprofit, we're gonna get to that. But you had a lot, of course, leading up to that and were really motivated to start it in the first place. Can you tell us a little bit about your personal story?  JENNIFER: So Beauty Marks for Girls…It did derive from a lived experience. We mentor girls whose mothers are incarcerated in South Carolina. And so I wanted to make sure that no young lady has to experience the pain of living with an incarcerated mother by herself. I am the daughter of a formerly incarcerated mother, who really has turned my pain into my power.  MARY: Yeah. I love that.  JENNIFER: And I plan to do the same for the young ladies throughout our program. So parental incarceration, I like to say that it hurts, but still in those broken areas, you can find that is where your power lies. Normally I'm asked about Beauty Marks, where do we get that name from? And that's what it means… Every scar tells a story. And those stories not only deserve, Mary, to be told, but they deserve to be heard.  MARY: Oh absolutely. And telling and hearing are two different things.  JENNIFER: Absolutely.  MARY: So you overcame some of the hardships that you experienced and you graduated from Columbia with a Fine Arts degree.  JENNIFER: That's right. Columbia College.  MARY: Yeah, yeah. So tell us how you kind of have parlayed that into Beauty Marks for Girls.  JENNIFER: I think it's beautiful that it just, it matched perfectly for me because when I entered into college, arts was something that I wanted to focus on and what it did for me, the arts, was it allowed me to have this blank canvas, right? So Jennifer you can create whatever it is, no matter what you're going through, this is your canvas. So it was an outlet for me. I like to say that education saved my life, because it allowed me to use my pain as a way… as an outlet to grow not just personally but also from an impactful way throughout the state. So yeah.  MARY: I love the idea of the blank canvas really being a symbol for what these girls are working with in your organization because their lives are blank canvases right now and they may not realize it, right? But you guys help them with that.  JENNIFER: That's it. That's the beauty behind it is we're not telling them what to paint, but we're telling them here, here's the tools. No matter what you're going through, you can create something beautiful. It's the mastery for them using the paint brushes and the colors that they are given. And parental incarceration, like I said, is something we don't talk a lot about Mary. But what I have found is that when you create those spaces for these young ladies, they grow… they have the sense of belonging, their self esteem is built and they know that they are not defined or withdrawn from having a successful life. But we're here to help them along the course.  MARY: Yeah, and a lot of times they don't see that they can have a successful life. Because what they see is the trouble that their parents have gotten into or their mother has gotten into, and especially for girls, especially at some of these, you know middle school ages and even elementary school even earlier than that, they are super impressionable, obviously, and they need that special connection between their mom and if they're not allowed to have it, that's a big piece of their development that's missing.  JENNIFER: Absolutely. Perfect example - that first crush, right, in middle school. Or that first breakup, which I just experienced last week with a young lady and you know, typically we run and we tell our moms and our moms are there to embrace. What happens when that mom is not there? Girls tend to internalize, you know, what it is but I'm grateful that we have developed an ecosystem where they can pick up the phone and say, “hey, Miss Jen.” Well, they don't even have to say “hey, Miss Jen.” They may start off just crying.  MARY: Right, right. And you're gonna know by the tone of their voice exactly that something's up.  JENNIFER: That's it. And I say and I pause, “let me know when you're ready.” So they have that outlet. Yeah, that's important.  MARY: I love that. So you're not only providing the outlet and the network and the space. How exactly does the program work, like you guys meet weekly, or how does that work?  JENNIFER: Yes, so we are a year round mentorship program. So that is a part of our ecosystem. Every girl is partnered with a mentor and I like to say they're the trailblazers - our mentors are because they're creating this path that they may have never been exposed to if they didn't show up. So we meet with the girls on a monthly basis, but mentors do a “hey girl hey” check in and that's a call-in every month, twice a month, which is great. And that can be anything, Mary, from “hey, let's just go and grab some ice cream”, or I found this quote and I wanted to share it with you today. So that mentor really stands in the gap as the locomotive really to our organization.  MARY: You are so creative. I love the hey girl, hey, well, that's why you were a fine arts major. Hey, girl, hey, and all the other things that you're creating for these girls. It just spurns out of your creativity and your heart and your soul I think.  JENNIFER: It really does. And again, I look back to my connection with the arts. I have to be honest and share a little bit of my testimony…I knew when my mom was incarcerated, right, there were two options for me: it was either going to be quote on quote the streets or education. And I'm so grateful that I chose education. Now when I went to college… with the administrator like “hey, what are you gonna major in?” I was like “I have no idea” because I knew in college I was going to have a roof over my head, right? And I was gonna get meals a day. And it just goes to show that your pathway, you may not understand it in the very beginning, but keep walking. So not only that, I went to a women's college, one who would have ever known that I would be leading a women's, you know, organization. I started in prison, actually was called into the prison system and I taught two years there for rehabilitation for women - how to get to the root issue of what's going on. And then again, it just, it just transpired. So your pain is usually a dictation…it's giving a little bit of a leeway of what you're built to do in the future. So don't dismiss it.  MARY: Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's great advice. Don't dismiss it and that can be applied to entrepreneurs to innovative thinkers, to anybody, young girls, young boys, anybody. I do want to talk a little bit about your volunteering at the correctional facility. What kinds of things did you learn from that experience that kind of helped you now? JENNIFER: Wow, that's a powerful, powerful question. The last thing I wanted to do was to go back into a correctional facility. But someone very dear to my heart, one of my mentors, actually my pastor, Pastor Wendell Jones, he said, “you know that you're healed in an area when you can go back to that place and you're not broken in that area.” That's when you know that you've hit a healing place. So what was mine gonna be? I had to go back to the correctional facility and that session was only supposed to be maybe like, two weeks. It turned into two years. I fell in love with vulnerability and community and that I was having an impact that was greater than me. And so that was my way to healing…was to give back and to ask mothers. That was the common denominator for moms…serving anywhere from a year to life in prison and to hear their stories and for them to say “Miss Jen, if I could turn back the hands of time or Miss Jen, if you can show up for my daughter's graduation on my behalf..” It's bigger than me. And so I was able to encourage them and heal at the same time. How divine is that?  MARY: Yeah, absolutely. As a matter of fact, you saw me do it and the camera saw maybe too I don't know, but those of you who are listening, go to YouTube and watch that part. I caught my breath when you said that… that you are healed if you can go back to the place where you were broken… JENNIFER: Absolutely. Yeah. And you do not have that animosity or your strength and that's Beauty Marks. Every scar tells a story and we don't look at those scars as shame, but they're now badges of honor where I can tell my stories to the ladies and it was relatability, like wow, this young lady has taken time out of her day and she's going through something very similar as I am but we turn pain into power those young ladies. Funny, funny stories and… real quick Mary to a birthday event. And my very first mentee at the prison at Lee's Correctional was there at the birthday event. Very first mentee in 2016.  MARY: Full circle. JENNIFER: Full circle and she hugged me. And it was one of those full circle moments for her and she just poured her heart out like “thank you. You showed up when no one else understood. You didn't pass judgment on me.” Now she is a business owner doing well. I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing. MARY: Yeah. That gave me goosebumps when you said that because I love full circle moments like that. And we never know. I truly believe this. We never know what impact we have on somebody. A lot of times we go through life and never know but you had the look, I would say, of being able to experience that and know the impact that you had on her and you know you're on the right path. JENNIFER: And sometimes you don't recognize it…in that very moment, the seeds that, you know, that you're planting and that's how seeds work. You have to organically, right, you have to allow them to grow. And yeah, it was powerful. Yeah, that was a powerful moment.  MARY: I love that. I love that. I want to talk about failure just a little bit because these girls have experienced failure, right? and they may… and failure comes with a lot of negative connotations. Right? And I know that entrepreneurs and innovators think of failure as a positive thing most of the time as this is something we're going to overcome. We're going to learn from it. How do you incorporate that and teach the girls that? JENNIFER: Yeah, great question. We have a saying that obstacles… We look at obstacles as opportunities. You know, this is an opportunity for you to grow. This is the opportunity for you to learn something or maybe just pause for a moment and say maybe how do I need to pivot this? So we look at obstacles because failure is going to come and so that encouragement I think… also surrounding yourself with people who understand and have pivoted their way out of failure. That's important as well. MARY: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And the girls can learn from that. And speaking of that, how do you find the mentors to pair up with the girls? JENNIFER: Yes, yes, great question. We typically try very hard to match our girls with whatever pursuit like career suit. Like we had a young lady who wants to be a nurse. So we made sure that we found someone in the nursing field. That can be just from networking, events, presentations, just doing a call to action, and the community's response..I can't describe it. It has blown me completely away. People see the need… people connect somewhere in the search, you know, in the story no matter if you had a parent incarcerated or not. We all… we're not immune to pain. Somebody somewhere is going through something and so to see individuals you know, executive directors say, hey, I don't have that much time, but I want to give two or three hours to mentor throughout the month. So it's been amazing. MARY: Yeah, I love that. What has been kind of..I know the whole thing has been rewarding because when you hear Jennifer talk about this, it's just, but what has been the most rewarding thing for you in this journey? Because I know the journey hasn't been easy. JENNIFER: That's a great question. Come on Mary with all the great questions today. I love it. Wow. So I set… our huge initiative is to help send a minimum of 50 girls off to college within the next seven to ten years. As I spoke of earlier, my mom was incarcerated when I was in college, and so to drop a young lady off, and to help her get settled in… the first day of her day of college, I didn't have that, right? I was by myself. And I'm gracious you know, my brother, I had the bags on my back and it was pretty much good luck. Hope this works out.  MARY: That's kind of how I was.  JENNIFER: Hey, that's my story. But, to have a group and people… we actually paid for the U haul. We drove her down there. We hugged her, we said our goodbyes. That was a pivotal moment for me and I wept. I held it together, right, that day but I got in my car and I was like wow and it made the saying come to mind, the goal is not to live forever, Jen, but it is to create something that will live past you.” And I knew that that was my purpose. That was why, in a sense, I was placed here on this earth… to mentor and to make sure that girls never have to experience what I had to do alone. MARY: And this… the lives that you are touching that is your legacy. JENNIFER: That is my legacy. That is my legacy. MARY: Speaking of legacies, you have children. Two children. Am I right in that?  JENNIFER: I do.  MARY: Yeah. So let's talk about them and how them watching you is affecting them and kind of importing to them the things that you feel are important in life. JENNIFER: That's so good. That's so good. That's my heart. Right? So when I live on the outside, I live on the inside and Harmony Rose is a part of Beauty Marks for Girls. To be honest, she actually plans events better than me, but don't tell her I said that.  MARY: She's going to know if she listens to the podcast.  JENNIFER: But she is so excited.  MARY: And how old is she?  JENNIFER: So Harmony is eight.  MARY: Eight. That's what I thought. She's still pretty young.  JENNIFER: She's pretty young and she's excited. She has a heart for philanthropy. She picks out the girls'… because we provide care baskets every single month. So she goes to Walmart with me and she says, “Okay, remember mom, Jenesis didn't like that color last time or Eden, this is what she would love.” She does play dates because our girls are as young as eight years old in our program, who are missing a mom and she understands that and so she's a beacon of love, light… the girls in our program…they hug on her, she embraces them. It's a huge family. And so for her to see mom in action, that's a part of my legacy as well. MARY: Yeah. For sure. This has not been an easy road. It's not easy to start a nonprofit. And so what are some of the roadblocks that you encountered that you had to overcome? And…one, getting people to buy into your vision of what this is and how big it could be and how important it would be, but two, the funding, which nonprofits always have kind of an issue with sometimes. JENNIFER: Absolutely. So we launched Beauty Marks for Girls in 2019 as we know the pandemic hit the following year. So I'm like hmmm, I'm supposed to start a nonprofit with no profit, how exactly does that work? MARY: And everybody's on lockdown and can't see the girls. JENNIFER: Exactly, exactly. So the great thing about that…in 2018, I started with maybe around $17 so that's my story. It was and I bootstrapped right? So I stood in front of Walmart, I started this from the ground up. I'm appreciative from starting from the ground up because now I can share with others, share with other entrepreneurs what to do, what not to do. That was my path that I had to take. The great thing is by 2023, I would say that we were a six figure nonprofit organization.  MARY: Wow, that's huge. JENNIFER: Starting from $17 to that and it was just learning… MARY: That's four years… JENNIFER: That was four years of growth and it was the community and telling the stories. For instance, our gala that we had, we didn't bring any keynote speakers very to our gala. Our girls told their stories, and they did in such an organic way. And that was the goal. I wanted the community to hear what these young ladies… what it feels like to truly walk in their shoes, having a mom incarcerated for the next 10 years, and you're only 11. What does that feel like? And so like I said, I would, I would say the financial part of it is always going to be a challenge. The funny thing, the funny challenge I like to always bring up is that a lot of the milestones that we had planned for maybe five or so years to do, we were doing it two years or three years. And while some like what's the problem with that? That's super exciting. It presents this challenge because your team now says “well, what's next?” And as the leader, you have to be vulnerable and say, “I don't know. I don't know.” And so that presented a challenge for me constantly being innovative. And just to bring up GVL Starts…that was one of my… I like to say I had kind of like writer's block or creative block because I was pushing out all of these programs. They weren't effective. And I came to that roadblock like what do we do next? And so I linked up with Brian Davis at GVL Starts and that really, I would say helped me to get my mojo back. Right and everybody was like, okay, team was like “Jen's back.” We pushed out a mental health and wellness program out at that time that is exclusively for girls who have a mother incarcerated and it is right now voted the number one among our girls… the number one program Beauty Marks for Girls has offered. MARY: Yeah, that's good. Because that's a component, right, that we all need, especially in this day and age. I was gonna circle around to Greenville Starts, but you jumped right in there. And I went through Greenville Starts within the first cohort because I have a production company but see if you found what I found… that just the community, I mean, you know, put the speakers aside and educators beside who they bring in because they bring in somebody every day and every time you go… just the community of the entrepreneurs helps because everybody's in that innovative mindset and they're all thinking outside of the box and they're… not just for themselves but for you too. So I found those conversations almost to be as beneficial or maybe more beneficial sometimes than some of the educational components that were planned for us. Not that they weren't because they certainly were, but… JENNIFER: You stated it perfectly. That was the missing link when I was going kind of through that writer's block, that was the missing link. I was not surrounding myself with other innovators…. like minded innovators who were just as wide-eyed and willing to take the risks. But when we linked hands, as sweaty as they were because we were all nervous, I found that was the best thing for me. Yeah, it was that you can't do it without community. You can't. So that changed our life. Greenville Starts. MARY: How has that helped you even, I mean, I think you were in the last year's fall cohort, is that right?  JENNIFER: Yes. MARY: Yeah, so a year almost since then. What kind of changes in addition to the mental health component that you've incorporated for the girls…what other, what other ways did that help you open your eyes to some things that maybe you needed to do or overcome some things.  JENNIFER: It was beautiful. I don't know if you know or not, but we actually walked away with the title last year.  MARY: Yes. you did.  JENNIFER: So, we, Beauty Marks for Girls, we won top pitch, $5,000. And that was our seed fund to start the mental health and wellness program. So we took that seed and took that check in and our young…all they saw was zeros, right? So they didn't know how much it was.  But it was an opportunity for me to say “hey, you can do whatever you set your mind, and you work hard to do. And that was beautiful. So it… again, it helped us to launch our mental health and wellness program which we're going into our second year and now, not only that, but the network of connections that I have made from one, that actually lended a partnership with the Department of Corrections from the cohort. So that right there, that means that we can do more in the prison systems, more families are served. And again, the backing from Furman University and so many other organizations, just has been absolutely incredible. MARY: How many girls do you have right now? JENNIFER: So we have fourteen total across five different counties. And then we have three girls who are in college full time on full ride scholarships. MARY: Oh, that's amazing.  JENNIFER: That's our goal. Our second is to again… to help send a minimum of 50 girls off to college within the next seven to ten years. And we've already sent three on full ride scholarships. MARY: You're well on the way. Well on the way. I was going to ask you, what's next for Beauty Marks for Girls? What do you have cooking in the coffers that you're thinking about rolling out? That you can share with us.  JENNIFER: Okay, you know, I'm excited. I'm so excited. I will say what's in the work right now is that we are trying to turn our mental health program into an application. So it's a platform.  MARY: Oh yes. Fabulous.  JENNIFER: So this is an app exclusively, again, for girls whose moms are incarcerated… so it can be a young lady who is in Greenville or she can be in Southern California. It's not going to matter if she's going through the hurts and pains of parental incarceration, she can log in…it's a safe haven and they can see exactly what we're doing here. So we'll have workshops there, guided meditation. So, it's an application that girls all over the nation can join in on. MARY: So they have it in their pockets at all times.  JENNIFER: Absolutely. MARY: I love that. JENNIFER: So, some of the forums will be what to do the first 24 hours that your mom is incarcerated. So that app is out there where they can log in and meet the students who we have here in South Carolina and again, build that community. MARY: I love that.  JENNIFER: I'm so excited. You know I'm excited.  MARY: Yeah, I love that next step. So your vision is to go nationwide?  JENNIFER: It is. Absolutely. And globally, ultimately. MARY: I love it. Because we have so many moms that have been incarcerated. They're leaving their kids.  JENNIFER: Yes. Absolutely. MARY: And a lot of times…say that number again. JENNIFER: I would say 2.5 right now… 2.5 children have been affected by parental incarceration. Only 2% of children who have a mother incarcerated, based on statistics, will graduate from college. So I'm a part of that 2% and my goal is to disrupt that statistic…girl by girl day by day. MARY: Yeah, yeah. I love it. Disrupt that statistic. You have to probably have kind of a, well I know you have several like visions and things that motivate you or whatever, but do you have an entrepreneurial kind of philosophy that you would share with other entrepreneurs that maybe they're like, oh, that's okay, I get something now.  JENNIFER: Yeah. I would say take care of yourself. From a personal…as much as we want and need your product or innovation, we need you well, so that would be number one because that creativity will flow when you're self care. I would say that that definitely is number one and mental health. The second thing I would probably state to encourage other entrepreneurs is it's okay to pivot. It's okay. It's okay to pivot as I was vulnerable with my team, I didn't know what to do. Okay? At that point, you have to be vulnerable. As you know, that's my stance… vulnerability is the pathway to creativity and connection.  MARY: Absolutely. I completely agree.  JENNIFER: That's it. That's it and don't… definitely don't give up. Don't give up. There were so many days that I was like, this is not working. I don't have the money. Going from $17… You don't really know what you're doing at the beginning. But the resiliency that's going to be pushed out of you will live past you, but you do have to see it to the end. Discipline right? Discipline is freedom. You have to be disciplined as an entrepreneur. And I like to also say because I come from corporate America, the same type of motivation and hard work and discipline that you put within someone else's company, it needs to be to a second level for your own.  MARY: Oh, yes, absolutely. JENNIFER: It needs to be to a second level and continue to elevate and to amplify your voice and take up space. Yeah, don't be afraid to do that  MARY: I love that. I love that. If you could give one piece of advice to the girls, what piece of advice would you give them? Because everything is so individual… JENNIFER: It is. And our program is really tailored to what the young ladies need. If I could give some advice, I would say to learn the power of empathy and forgiveness. It came to a point that before I could go to the next level, I had to have that tough conversation with my mom, right? So I had to forgive and I had to empathize with her. Now my mom is celebrating over 10 years of sobriety and she's a part of Beauty Marks for Girls. We actually named our scholarship after my mom. So I would say lead with empathy and the power within that is to learn to forgive and live to the best of your ability and not hold grudges. Live out loud. Don't be afraid to soar. Yeah. MARY: Yeah, I think that's great advice for anybody, not just the girls, but everybody listening. Right? Everybody listening. MARY: What do you need? JENNIFER: So right now, my goal is to continue to build relationships. So… mentors…we are in need of mentors, mental health ambassadors. You don't have to have a clinical or a form of degree to help a young lady who just needs a shoulder to cry on. We need a lot of hands who need to show up at events, our mental health as I spoke to our app that we're getting ready, you know, just maybe some technical assistance and where to start. That's something that we are definitely looking into. Board of directors, we're always looking to engage with board of directors to help with the health and, you know, the future of Beauty Marks for Girls. So I would say that's number one. Always financial support is going to be something.. I say that a nonprofit is as strong as the community that holds it up. When you see nonprofits, not here, it's usually a funding, right? I've seen great founders walk away from organizations and great work, great causes, but the funding isn't there. So to continue to have this impact that we're having in the state of South Carolina we need that support, that financial support, and it doesn't have to be always a dollar amount to it Mary. If you have a restaurant and say, hey, I want to, you know, bring your girls in to have lunch for after school. That's giving back. Everyone can do something in the philanthropic world. So yeah, so yeah, I would say that. MARY: Jennifer, I love that. How can people get in touch with you to perhaps give in those ways or become a mentor? JENNIFER: I would love to speak more with you. You can reach us at Beauty Marks, the number four, girls.com. That's B, E, A, U, T, Y, M, A, R, K, S, the number four, girls.com. We're also on social media so you can find us on Instagram. Please follow, please like so we can spread the message of what we're doing to have a greater impact. Linked in as well as Facebook. So yeah.  MARY: And you know what? Even if you can't, you know, donate right now or even if you can't, you know,  don't have the time to be a mentor, whatever the case is, you can go on social media and comment and share and bolster because that engagement is so important to spread the word right? Because social media is a huge network and in order for that network to grow, we have to engage.  JENNIFER: Very true. One of our biggest, I would say stakeholders, right now they're in Brooklyn, New York.  MARY: Yeah.  JENNIFER: So like how they found us? I'm not sure, but it was because someone you know, saw the needs, saw the cause connected us. So like you stated it's just as vital, social media. MARY: All right, Jennifer, I'm gonna give you a last word. Anything else you want to make sure that our viewers know about you or Beauty Marks For Girls or entrepreneurship or innovation? JENNIFER: Yes. First of all, thank you Mary. I want to end by saying thank you so much. This is like family to me you all, Furman University, GVL Starts. Pau, Kelly, Brian Davis, everyone I just want to say thank you for that. We are stronger together.  MARY: Absolutely.  JENNIFER: And so I would say last words is don't be afraid to live out loud. Don't be afraid to live out loud. And that your the hardest parts of your testimony could be the roadmap and the blueprint to save another life. So yeah, don't forget that… the power within you.  MARY:  Yeah, yeah, that just made me go whew. I love it. See this is why you should go listen to her speak. Like I said…don't walk, run to sign up for whatever, wherever you're speaking.  JENNIFER: We go deep. We go deep. You will not walk out the same. You will not walk out the same.  MARY: That is so true.  JENNIFER: Yep.  MARY: Jennifer, thank you so much.  JENNIFER: Pleasure.  MARY: I can't wait until I see you again. That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember, if you or someone you know has an idea for a nonprofit or a business venture, then Greenville Starts is here to help you do that. So just Google Greenville Starts Furman and it should be the very first thing that pops up on your Google search and get yourself into one of those cohorts that are coming up. But it makes a huge difference as Jennifer has shared with us, other guests have shared with us. So make sure you go do that. This is the podcast that is brought to you through the partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is a true example of the Furman Advantage because we are produced by student producer, Isabella Martinez. And so she creates these rundowns for us and she creates these questions and she researches the guests and then she edits these things together. So please give her some kudos if you see her interacting online because she does a heck of a job. The other thing I want to remind everybody is that you can now watch us on YouTube as well. So of course we're wherever you get your podcasts and we're on YouTube, but hit that subscribe button so that you are notified whenever we have a new episode out which is about every other week. All right. But that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host Mary Sturgilll. Until next time everybody, dream big.          

Analyzing data can be a daunting task, but what if there was a more usable program to do so? In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we sat down with Spencer Tate ‘24 to discuss his and co-founder, Nemath Ahmed's, data analytics platform, dotflo. Reminiscing on his win at the 2023 Paladin Pitch Competition, Tate shares what he's learned on his entrepreneurial journey and the reality of having opportunity costs in life. Guest: Spencer Tate '24 Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez   Transcript:  MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host, Mary Sturgill. This is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And we are right in the middle of our special series in which we talk to Furman students and recent alumni about their entrepreneurial endeavors. And so I have Spencer Tate with me here today. Spencer, welcome to the show. SPENCER: Thank you. No, it's great to be on a podcast. This is the first time so… MARY: Alright! SPENCER: I'll try my best but I'm excited for the opportunity. MARY: Cool. We're glad to have you. I know you at your young age are a serial entrepreneur right now. You just won the Paladin Pitch competition. Let's talk about your current company dotflo. Tell us about that. SPENCER: Yeah, so right now we're…so Nemath and I…so Nemath Ahmed…he's my co-founder. He's actually in San Jose, California. That's why I have the festive San Francisco bridge behind me so he's out in San Jose right now working at Cisco. And I'm out actually in Chicago working at Ernst and Young. He's doing more AI machine learning and I'm more on the finance side. So yeah, over the past, since the Paladin Pitch… Well first I went out to San Jose for three weeks to work in person with Nemath. During that time, we were able to continue to develop the vision we were, we were able to continue to talk with initial beta users and start those initial relationships with people who are actually going to be able to use our product. And yeah, it's been an exciting time. We're actually about to launch our initial real MVP that is going to go into the hands of four universities who we're talking to right now who are using our product or will be using our product and we're going to go through kind of an iteration mode where we just work with those kind of initial first users and see how we can provide the most value. But going back to the dotflo and what it is and why we started it is so I'm a data analyst and Nemath's a data scientist. And frankly, a lot of companies can't afford to hire a full-time data analyst or a full-time data science team within their organization. That's kind of where the ideas spurred of… kind of leveraging new technology and building out our own novel way to streamline that data science process and make it accessible for teams who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it. So that's really what we've been pushing on over the past few months. And we're getting it to a good stage where we can actually then put it into the hands of those initial universities and I think we're at an exciting time right now.  MARY: Yeah, so I imagine your customer would be maybe universities, small or medium sized businesses. Am I correct in that thinking? SPENCER: Yeah, so, so actually, when we first, when we did the Paladin Pitch we were pretty open to a lot of different verticals. So we were open to retail, manufacturing, food, universities, you name it, but what we found really quickly when we were developing, kind of the technology behind what drives that streamline process, is that it's better 1) to focus on an initial vertical and essentially train the brain within understanding data within that specific industry and even problem statement. So what we're focused on right now is helping advancement and development teams at universities help understand how they can use machine learning, which is basically statistical methods that help with understanding, how to assess the right, the right people who I should look, who I should reach out to, who who might potentially donate to my university. So a lot of… so Furman was the first people who approached us, and they essentially said, “hey, we have a data analyst on our team. However, we're lacking in the data science expertise. This is something that can be really beneficial for us because we're kind of, not that we're guessing but there's a lot of, there's a lot of guessing to be frank…That includes the process of “Who do I reach out to, do I reach out to all 1000 people on my list?” And when we bring in that flow, you can find out the 100, the top 100 people who are going to be most likely to donate or that have the characteristics that will donate a specific amount. So yeah, so we're actually just focused on fundraising teams right now. And building out that validation that we can streamline it within this just initial vertical. Work with different datasets from different universities. Basically train our, our AI essentially to learn the space of advancement, and provide that in house for teams.  MARY: This is amazing, because I could see how you would save money, time and some of the effort that goes into development, right? And chasing leads that aren't necessarily going to be the best leads for a university to get funding. Right? And so I would think that what you guys are doing would help universities streamline that and just be… work more efficiently and that's the goal, I assume. SPENCER: Yeah, definitely. And what we found is that universities will pay 20, 30, $40,000 to send their data out to companies who will then do the machine learning on their own end. And then they'll send the results back to those companies like Furman, for example, and then they'll have the list of the top 100 people to do it. So not only do we want to put this in the hands of a university, like Furman, but we also want this to be a tool where people who are, don't necessarily have those, that analytical background can grow within their role and can leverage this technology and feel empowered and feel like they can really make an impact and feel like they can collaborate with, with their teammates at a whole new level that they just, it was just too big of a barrier to get into before. MARY: Right, right. That's amazing. How are you balancing all this? Because I know you're a full-time student as well. And you're at an internship this summer, which is why we're zooming and, and you know, getting this thing off the ground. That's a lot. SPENCER: Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is that I mean, Nemath and I love just innovating and thinking of ideas and it's really about the journey. It's not necessarily something that is easy. It's time consuming. There's sacrifices that I have to make. Am I going to go out and go to the bars on Friday, Saturday night, or am I going to work on my startup? I'm going to work on my startup, and it's just kind of the opportunity costs at a younger age that, that I have to weigh, but we love it and I think we have to take the small wins into consideration along the way that help continue to build the momentum. Because we're at such an early stage right now where we have great opportunities in front of us. He's at a great tech company. I'm at a great financial institution where we both can learn a lot. And what we're just trying to do right now is just take advantage of those opportunities to learn as much as we can. And if the opportunity comes where we really see a clear, foreseeable path to like let's say raise money to then go full time into dotflo, then, hey, that's gonna be an opportunity we're going to weigh. But at the point we're at right now is, we're just continuing to iterate and ideate on the idea, get that initial feedback, and I think at this time, we can balance both things and do a great job of doing both. Once school comes around, it'll kind of be like Ernst and Young will kind of be my new school because we'll go away for, for that for that year. But yeah, you know, one of the big things that I can think about a lot is opportunity costs, and there's a lot of opportunity costs, especially at a young age. When it comes to, you know, what am I going to focus on? So, to answer your question, we love it.  MARY: Yeah. So this is not your first entrepreneurial adventure…you, gosh, were you a freshman when you did the first Paladin Pitch that you did? SPENCER: Yes. Yeah. MARY: So as a freshman, you created a company. Tell us about the Trash and Dash company. SPENCER: Yeah, so it all started with… I was really bad at taking my trash out, out of my dorm room. So it was like a 5,10 minute walk just to take the trash out. And I thought you know this probably is a need. There's other people who probably are really busy like me who…trash is piling up in the room. And wouldn't it be nice if someone just came by their dorm room and came and picked it up on a scheduled basis? So that's kind of where the company University Trash and Dash came to light. I started that freshman year. Second semester I got two 64 gallon trash bins at a local Lowe's. And yeah, I started. I started growing that.  MARY: So where does that entrepreneurial spirit and just the innovative thinking come from do you think? SPENCER: Oh, man. Well, I think I have a lot to give credit to my parents. They're both really hard workers. So, my mom… she's bounced multiple jobs throughout her life. My dad works long hours. They're just both very driven people. I come from a modest background. So I've really seen them work hard for what we have. And I think that drives me a lot. And then also my grandparents. I would say that I have great grandparents that always told me to just follow my dreams and to never give up. So I think that… It sounds cheesy and cliche, but I mean, it's driven me a lot over the years.  MARY: No, that's awesome because you know, a lot of entrepreneurs, especially young entrepreneurs come from an entrepreneurial family. And sometimes for those of us who don't, it might be a little bit harder to get into that mindset, right? And I think that mindset is so important. So it's such a great thing that you talk about your family giving you that mindset that they've created you to be, you know, an innovative thinker, obviously, since you're doing what you're doing and I mean, who would have thought of, you know, dotflo and helping universities really hone in on development, you know? SPENCER: Sure.  MARY: So when you think about this process that you've gone through with first Trash and Dash and now dotflo, what are some of the things that you've learned that… kind of along the way that might help other young entrepreneurs? SPENCER: Yeah, well, it's actually funny because so yes, University Trash and Dash and dotflo, but there was a few things actually in between that.  MARY: Yeah.  SPENCER: We're not gonna go to the full extent of it, but to be short, there was… I'd tried to start a company that would connect collegiate athletes to mentor elementary and middle school and high schoolers.  MARY: Oh, yeah. I remember you talking about that at one point. Yeah. SPENCER: Yeah. So, so that essentially… I ended up not continuing that one because I was really having a hard time with the business model, but then too, if you're, if you're going to start a technical company, it's really hard to outsource the tech. You really need a co-founder who's, who's technical, who's going to be in it with you, and I didn't really have that. So… and then also, I was, I was younger, and I didn't have as much as experience. I still don't have a lot of experience right now. But yeah, so I ended up stopping that and then I started a group with my friend Tyler. And we basically brought together just driven people who wanted to ideate once a week. So we brought in people from all different universities…started doing that ultimately. We stopped it because it was really interesting what I've learned. You can bring a lot of really smart people together. However, if there's not like a really big meaning or connection with that group of people, it's really hard to motivate them and it's really hard to get something going especially if they can't really see the finish line. I'm someone who like, I can have a more long term outlook on things. It's a little bit easier for me not to see the finish line, but for a lot of people, they want to see the finish line, they want to see, you know, what's incentivizing them to carve out an hour and then to actually do more on their free time to like to dig into the group. So, yeah, to those points, just starting things, I think and I'm just curious. I think one of the biggest, the biggest blessings in my life was when I started that first company. I didn't know what was gonna happen. I literally went to the school library. I made a little flyer. I printed like 100 of them out and then I started talking to people and getting people to sign up. I think like when you're, at least for me, I would say trying to be an entrepreneur, especially if you don't like come from a super entrepreneurial background, you're naive to a lot of things. MARY: You're not alone though. A lot of entrepreneurs aren't business majors, right? They don't know necessarily how the business side of things work. So you're not alone in that. SPENCER: Yeah, so you're naive to a lot of things. And you kind of, at least for me, it's kind of a trial and error. It's how am I going to step into this opportunity and how am I going to learn from it? How am I going to take that to then, to then be successful when I take that next step forward? So yeah, if I learned anything, it's just take that initial step forward and be willing to step into the unknown. And it's not an easy journey. I mean, there was a lot of times where I did feel kind of lonely like I kind of sacrificed, not spending as much time with my friends and then I didn't have as close relationships when I was a freshman and sophomore. Once I like stopped those businesses, I was able to dig into relationships more but I mean, there was an opportunity cost to that. But you know, if you really want something, you can go get it and I believe that with all my heart and that's kind of like why Nemath and I fully believe in the vision behind why we started dotflo and the purpose of it and everything like that. But yeah, I probably can say a lot more lessons, but I'll keep it at that. MARY: Yeah, I think that's a great lesson and what, you know, there's no better time to take those chances, like you were talking about, then when you're young, right? And so that's why whenever I'm in class, and my student has an idea, I'm like, why aren't you doing that? You know? SPENCER: Yeah. No, I think it's, I think it's important to just…to just take a step forward when it's, especially if you haven't started anything before. You have that creativity to have ideas. You're gonna probably fail. The first few ideas are probably not going to work out. And if they do, then that's awesome.  MARY: Right.  SPENCER: But out of all the successful entrepreneurs I've talked to, a lot of them failed first, and a lot of them had… it wasn't easy at all. So I think really quickly I found out that the glamor of, you know, maybe putting on my LinkedIn that I was CEO of Trash and Dash, it goes away really quick because at the end of the day, no one really cares. I'll be completely honest, no one cares. And you kind of find yourself in this place of like, oh, do I really want to do this? And I think that's how you find out whether or not, you know, this is something that you might want to continue to pursue as you continue to grow. MARY: Right. So what's next for dotflo? SPENCER: Yeah, so basically, right now, as I said, we're continuing to iterate on our initial product. It's really exciting because we, at the beginning of last month, we got together. We actually had a call with Furman and the call didn't go great. Our product was buggy. It was kind of rushed. Nemath…so he's more on the tech side. He was traveling to India, because that's where he's from. He is an international student. He's in his master's program. And I admire him a lot, honestly. I mean, he's, he's a very hard worker. And through meeting other, I'm kind of going on a tangent right now, but from meeting people from different cultures, I think it's super important to work with them. Because he brings a completely different perspective from what I bring to the table. But yeah, all that to say, where was I going with that? MARY: I think you just hit on something super important. So when you're starting a company, you need to bring in people who have the talents that you don't have, who have different perspectives than you so that you can look at things in a more full way. Right?  SPENCER: Yeah, yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. So with that, we…where I was going with that, is we kind of were rushed into that initial kind of meeting with Furman. It didn't go great. However, what we did learn is that we needed to focus more on that industry. And that's where we just said, hey, we're not going to be reaching out to 100 other people from retail, manufacturing, maybe food. We're just going to focus on college universities. So we have been talking to different universities. We have demos set up. We're getting data from these universities. And basically, over the next month and a half, we're just really going to work with these universities, continue to build out our product, make it functional for their needs, and by  mid September, you know, our goal is to have paying customers, paying enterprises on the platform as a software, as a service. So it's something where it's in the cloud, you log on to your browser, you don't have to download anything to your computer, and then they can get that seamless value of 1) really understanding their data, but being able to do so in a way where they can grow within their role and to collaborate with each other on the insights they're finding and really put this as a platform where, where they can go to the next level of how they can ultimately find people who are going to donate to the university and do it in a much more effective way than just kind of guessing and sending the 10,000 emails that are going to cost $10,000 compared to the 1000 emails that have much more higher probability that those people are going to respond. So really we're just trying to build that environment right now. It's a journey, like we kind of thought that we were gonna have things a little bit quicker than we did. But it's completely fine. And we're actually staying on track with what we wanted to accomplish over the summer. We wanted to get beta users on the platform. We want to iterate and by the time the semester comes around, we wanted to have paying customers and we're on track for that right now. MARY: Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. So are you one of the entrepreneurs that, or serial entrepreneurs I should say, that keep a notebook? SPENCER: Yeah, so I, I do. I actually do. I love journaling so I do this thing before I go to bed where I'll write the most important thing I did, the summary, how I can be excellent tomorrow, and then what I'm grateful for, and when I… MARY: I love that.  SPENCER: It helps me kind of, helps me reflect on the day, but I can spit out some ideas through there. But yeah, I have ideas all the time. And a lot of them are kind of crazy and something that I love about working with Nemath is that we can just… we feel open and we can shoot down ideas really easily if it's not a good idea. I think like, when you look for someone to work with…because I would say from experience if you're gonna start a company, do it with someone else, at least to start. I don't know. You can do it on your own, but it's better when you do it with someone. Just from experience doing it by myself to doing it with someone else. It's like a relationship and you're working within and you're growing with someone in a sense. But yeah, we've kind of built an environment, a culture where we're both open to sharing ideas and to saying, hey, this is why we don't think this is going to work. And that helps us, it helps us get to the, it's going to help us get to the ultimate finish line. Like I said those little wins is literally like someone responding to an email at this point. There's so many people who don't respond to us, but we just have to keep going so… MARY: Absolutely. SPENCER: Because it's all about momentum. Going out to San Jose and me going out there, it was all part of the momentum. Yeah, it cost almost $3,000 for three weeks for me to be out there. However, it was worth the investment. Because I don't know if we'd be at this point right now if I didn't go out there and I didn't continue to grow the relationship with Nemath because we, we met back in February. So we hadn't known each other that long. We met at a hackathon. It was so random how… MARY: Yeah, I was gonna ask. Wow, yeah.  SPENCER: Yeah, so literally, and this all starts with kind of the why behind just going and doing things. The whole story behind dotflo is actually we were working on a completely different idea for like a month. And then we had this pitch competition at Georgia Tech at the end of the month. Nemath and I met mid February, where we basically were on a hackathon team. And if you don't know what a hackathon is, it's where you have 36 hours to essentially build a product from scratch. And our product was… we built an AI trashcan. If you would put something in front of the bin, it would essentially say this is what bin you should throw it in. Because people…what I found doing Trash and Dash, people are terrible at recycling. MARY: Yes, they are.  SPENCER: But the thing was in Trash and Dash, we were able to reinforce the user's… writing on their can, what they were doing wrong when they put the recycling out and they actually got better over time. So it was that same concept. I won't talk anymore about that. But that then led Nemath and I to really building that relationship and I said, hey, I'm working on this one idea called Data Share. It was a data monetization idea. Blockchain involved it was, it was confusing. And essentially, we found out pretty quick that there were just some things within that, within that idea that were hard to get around. So then when I came home for spring break, I said, you know what? I'm going to go out and I'm going to talk to as many small and medium sized businesses as I can. I'm going to understand their problems. And that's what we did. And then we realized that a lot of these businesses can't afford data analysts, data scientists so we saw kind of a niche within that.  MARY: Right.  SPENCER: That's where this idea of all and so Nemath and I…just to share a little bit more about like the journey that we've gone through so far, we competed at a pitch competition at Georgia Tech. We were one place away from winning $500,000.  MARY: Wow.  SPENCER: Yeah, we were very close, one place away. And ultimately, after that pitch competition, and the guy who, who basically carries it out, he, he sold the company for a lot of money at Georgia Tech, and he basically helps student entrepreneurs and they do this petition once a year. And yeah, after that pitch competition, I think it shows a lot about the passion that Nemath and I have is that we had put our heads down, we got to the drawing board and we said what are we going to, what are we going to have to do to get paying customers on the product and validate this? We went to the library and continued to work. And that's and that's what we did. And then ultimately, that brought us to the Paladin Pitch where I was super grateful to have the opportunity to pitch there and the Hill Institute is a great organization that has provided me a lot of opportunities that I've been really grateful for. So I definitely want to say thank you to them if anyone's watching that's associated with the Hill Institute. Because ultimately, yeah, I don't think I'd be the same entrepreneur that I am right now without some of those opportunities. So, so yeah, and now we're in the summer and continuing to build.  MARY: Yeah, I love this story. This is going to be a great story for your website - how you, how you, and Nemath met, and for just the story of the company and how this was born. Spencer, I just have so much admiration for you and what you're doing and the fact that you're going after your dreams and you're not putting that off. And I hope our listeners… I know they get how intelligent you are and how compassionate and passionate that you are about being an entrepreneur and being innovative and making, making a space because you're doing everything right man. You are, you know, this is I don't even know what episode this is of this podcast, but I've been talking to so many entrepreneurs who are, you know, years ahead of you as far as age goes, but not as far as their entrepreneurial journey goes, right? And you are right on par if not in front of some of those guys in your thinking and I just, I just can't wait to see what you guys do in the future.  SPENCER: Well, like parental advice like this is just one…this is just one perspective. You know, we don't even have any paying customers yet but you know, we're gonna, we're gonna do everything in our power to get paying customers on the platform and really change the way that data science is done. I mean, that's our ultimate vision is to create our own basically AI that can go within different platforms and be able to help 1) software engineers but people who aren't… the people who don't have the skills and data scientists to basically streamline that process and we think it can happen and we're gonna keep pushing forward to make it happen. So I really, really appreciate everything you said. MARY: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think you know, you might not have any paying customers right now, but I think you're gonna be on target for September. And I just wholeheartedly believe in what you guys are doing and I'm, as a professor at Furman, I'm gonna say I'm so proud of you. SPENCER: Well, and I just want to say Furman's been…it's been, it's been a great experience. 1) like my coaches, on the Furman cross country team, I only ran for two years, but I mean, they instilled a lot of great things in me and then also the challenging professors that I've had. Thank you, because it's been challenging. MARY: Yeah, yeah.  SPENCER: And I'm not the student who just has the 4.0 GPA. Who does everything like that, you know, during, yeah, there's opportunity costs for sure. MARY: Exactly. And I love the fact that you talk about them in the way that you talk about them because a lot of times we… In these conversations that I have with people, we kind of omit the opportunity costs and there are choices that you have to make, but you have to kind of - and that's true with anything, not just entrepreneurism - but you just have to kind of weigh your, weigh your options and see what's going to be best for you in the long run. So, Spencer, it was such a pleasure to talk to you today. SPENCER: Yeah, and thank you so much for having me on. It'll be… I don't know if I'm gonna listen to my voice. When I… MARY: You'll listen, you're fine. SPENCER: I'll listen to it. But yeah, it's been, it's been great. And usually I'm on the other side of the lens. Asking people questions. So it's, it's interesting then kind of I guess, share my, my take. So… MARY: It really is and I so enjoyed this conversation and listening to your take, and I know our listeners will too.  SPENCER: Yeah, well, thank you so much.  MARY: Yeah, absolutely.  MARY: That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And by the way, if you are a Furman student and you've listened to this conversation, then you might want to check into the Paladin Pitch competition that Spencer won last year and you could be in his shoes this time next year. Right? Exactly. That does it for us on this episode of the Class E Podcast. Until next time everybody, dream big.    

Change can be scary, but it can also be good. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked to Nathaniel Desantis ‘19 about how his entrepreneurial path has evolved from the multimedia company, Amalfi Media, to now Podcast Studio X. Desantis shares how the growth of his personal podcast company is now helping others tell their stories. We discuss how failure can be rewarding, and how it's important to always be willing to learn. Guest: Nathaniel DeSantis '19 - Owner Podcast Studio X  Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   Transcript:  MARY: Hi, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host, Mary Sturgill. This is the podcast that is created through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University and we are right in the middle of a very special kind of summer season if you will, of the Class E Podcast where we're having current students and not so recent graduates. Well, some recent graduates… four years ago, is that right? Yeah, four years ago, so recent graduates who are entrepreneurs in their own right, and so our special guest today is Nathaniel DeSantis. Nathaniel, welcome back.  NATHANIEL: Thank you for having me back on again.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: For those of you who don't know, this is my second time on the podcast.  MARY: Yeah, so I had Nathaniel on… what, two years ago? Right when you started.  NATHANIEL: It was like a year and a half, two years ago.  MARY: Yeah, so at that time you were running Amalfi Media…  NATHANIEL: Correct.  MARY: And Amalfi Media has gone through several iterations since our conversation and so I'm excited to kind of catch up with you and learn about the growth of what's happened since then. So, tell everyone… go watch… one go watch or listen actually, it's listen to at that point because we didn't have our YouTube channel yet. So, go listen to that podcast with Nathaniel about Amalfi Media because I want you to see how much his company's grown from then to now. It's crazy.  NATHANIEL:  It's changed a lot.  MARY: And in a pandemic.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, well that was probably part of it.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: It truly has changed.  MARY: So give everyone a brief description of what the first iteration was.  NATHANIEL: Like Amalfi Media? Okay so Amalfi Media was just a digital media company. The whole point was we would make our own podcasts and it was primarily podcasts. I think we had one YouTube channel.  MARY: Yeah, your mom had a YouTube channel.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. We would make our own content and put it out there and the goal was to monetize this podcast. So that was like the one of the company. And it was going pretty well. But as I think I discussed on the previous episode I was on, I quit my manufacturing job to do that.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: And it got to a point where I was like, okay, I need to make money.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: I need to survive.  MARY: Like everybody thought you were crazy when you said I'm leaving this job after a year and I'm starting this company.  NATHANIEL: Yeah.  MARY: Right?  NATHANIEL: And like the shows that we were producing were growing very well. But the writing was on the wall that it would take maybe two, three years for it to get to a point where I could sustain myself and all the hosts that were doing the shows, which kind of led to V2 of the company which is it fine to go into that now?  MARY: Yeah, absolutely.  NATHANIEL: So V2 was the Greenville Podcast Company because what happened was at the end of Amalfi Media I shut it… I closed Amalfi Media LLC so legally it's no longer an entity anymore. I asked what did I do well, and what did I not do well, and we would always get compliments on our production work. People would always say like that sounds really professional.  MARY: You guys have great productions. And listen to his voice everybody. Oh my goodness okay.  NATHANIEL: Good genetics, I guess. So the production value is really good and people would always compliment us on that. So I said, well, we'll work on just being a production company specifically focused on podcasts. And again, like I said, I focused on what I did wrong as well. And a lot of it was I think, when new entrepreneurs, especially young ones, because I was like 21, 22 when I started. No 22, 23 when I started, young entrepreneurs, I think they have this idea like oh, like it's just gonna like be huge, and it's gonna blow up and it's gonna be…  MARY: Immediately.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, exactly. It's gonna be this huge thing. So I took a step back and I didn't focus on like names or anything. I said, we'll just call it the Greenville Podcast Company to start with and we'll produce and let's just see, let's see if we get any clients. Eventually, we did get clients so that turned into us producing content, specifically podcasts for nonprofits, like Greater Good Greenville is one really good example. They have a podcast called Simple Civics Greenville County, but then we do things for larger corporations like Johnson and Johnson. So we're really hitting kind of like the companies and using it as PR and marketing for them. And it got to a point where a month ago… so this is like fresh…we decided to change it to Podcast Studio X because…  MARY: Yeah. And how did that change come about?  NATHANIEL: So we kind of again, I started through Greenville Podcast Company right after Amalfi Media shut down and I said I'm not gonna go in thinking this is going to be huge.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: I'm just gonna keep it local to start with and it has grown really well. And the problem we're running into is that people outside of Greenville are like, why would I use the Greenville Podcast Company?  MARY: Oh, right.  NATHANIEL: And a big emphasis of ours is on remote production. So we only have two clients that we actually go to in their office. The rest are remote, still make it sound really good, still really good quality. So, you know, we took a look. And we said, what do we want to name the company so that people can look at it in California.  MARY: From anywhere. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. They can look in Europe and be like, wow, well, they just do podcasts. And this is actually the reason is Podcast Studio X is very specific because we… Google has a really cool ad tool where you can do like this keyword search, and you can see what keywords are people Googling and so my sister and I, we made a list of like 500 keywords related to podcast production be it remote podcast production or podcast studio or this that the other, right? Anything with podcasts and production work, we put them into Google and we saw what performed the best with search and podcast studio was the highest ranking one so it got something like 20,000 monthly searches for just podcast studio, whereas podcast production only got like 100 a month.   MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: So we're like okay, well, let's do it based on search.  MARY: That's smart. Does that come from your sister? She's this marketing guru.  NATHANIEL: I wish. This is a lesson learned from the Amalfi Media days and some advice from some really good mentors that I met along the way. That's actually what we do for our clients when it comes to their show titles. And so we looked through we're like well, let's just do it with this as well…the company name like if it works for the podcast, it will work for the company name. And so my sister and I, this is where my sister comes in, her and I are brainstorming names and we're like, okay, it has to have podcast studio in it, right? And she's like, she texts me Podcast Studio X and she meant that as like a placeholder, but as in like, fill in the blank. Again, like what are we gonna put it in for the X and I just saw and I was like, I love it. It's sick. Great idea. You got it. You got the company name.  MARY: Well and that fits because you create podcasts for all these different companies.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. It just happened to work really well. And it's one of those things. So you know, we looked for the domain and it was there and it's like, great, this is perfect. Now we don't have to worry about it for a long time. So that's the long story of how we went from Amalfi Media…  MARY: The evolution.  NATHANIEL: …to Greenville to Podcast Studio X.  MARY: Well, and the reason I wanted you to talk about that was so many entrepreneurs… what their initial idea is not how it ends, right?  NATHANIEL: Yeah.  MARY: And so you had this initial idea with Amalfi Media and then you saw the potential and the need for a podcast production company because so many people are wanting to get into podcasts, but they don't have the skills, right?  NATHANIEL: Exactly.  MARY: They don't know what equipment they need or you know all of this stuff or where they should host or anything like that. So you're filling that niche for them. And I think that's great. So how do you get your clients?  NATHANIEL: So a few ways. First of all, we actually just hired our first salesman, salesperson I should say. So he does a lot of cold calling and cold email outreach. We have a target audience that is businesses and nonprofits because we found that podcasts are great PR marketing tools. We thought personally and it's a little biased… I think it should be around 70% of what you do for marketing. The other… you know the rest of the percentage, you do whatever you want with that. But I think 70% of your marketing and PR should be podcasts.  MARY: Because if you look at the number of podcast listeners in the United States, but also around the world, it's not going… it's seen a seven-year… huge growth in the past seven years and each year keeps growing and growing.  NATHANIEL: Yeah. And also the way that we look at podcasts and it's our job to try to explain this to potential clients is that you can repurpose it in so many ways. So you're doing a video podcast. We're on video. Your YouTube's covered, you don't have to worry about YouTube anymore. Using that video, you can now chop that into clips and now your Instagram, your Tik Tok, your Twitter, your YouTube shorts, your Facebook, it's all covered. Turn these episodes into transcripts. Now your blog strategy's covered and then you have them on the audio platforms as well. So that's something we really have to hammer home to potential clients. This is used for a lot of different things. It's… a lot of people think of a podcast as just talking, it's not. You can repurpose that. So it's our job to help potential clients understand that.  MARY: And that's efficiency, right? Because you're sitting down for maybe 30, maybe 45 minute podcast and you have that much content that.. yes, you're gonna produce it as a podcast in its entirety, but you also have that content that you could chop out and use for other things depending on what their marketing that week, right?  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. So to go back to your question, how do we find clients? Part of its referrals. So obviously we have a new salesperson but part of it is… we work with people and they have guests come on and then their guests say my company wants a podcast too. We really enjoyed working with Podcast Studio X, you guys were super professional. We want you. Part of it is connections, honestly. So I think Furman is a great example of like good connections. You just happen… you meet people in your life at Furman who may or may not become lifelong friends, but they're still connections that you'll have and when their company or their boss wants a podcast, they're more likely to think of you, right? That's helped with a few clients that we've gotten as well. Other times before we had a salesperson, I would just pick up the phone, I would call people. I'd say hey, does your company want a podcast? Just hope and pray that they would say yes. Then we also do this thing for all of our clients where if they say at the end of an episode, this was produced by Podcast Studio X and have that on their shows, they get a discount. And they also…we have a referral system that's new where they'll get a whole month of production for free if they do refer us to someone else. MARY: Oh nice.  NATHANIEL: So lots of avenues. Also with sales, we started doing more inbound marketing so we're pushing out five blogs a week.  MARY: Yeah, wow.  NATHANIEL: That's just good quality content that we're putting on our website, hoping that it draws people in and best case scenario we get a client, worst case they learned something valuable about podcasting.  MARY: Yeah, for sure. So, you are… this is almost a subscription-type service, is it not?  NATHANIEL: Yeah, it absolutely is for our clients. Yeah. We have yearly contracts with them. They do one episode every week or an episode every other week that we will produce for them. And it starts with a kickoff and training period where we kind of go into the logistics stuff like cover art. No one really thinks about that.  MARY: So do you help… Do you help them not only with the actual podcast and the mechanics of the podcast itself, but with some of the marketing of it as well?  NATHANIEL: Yeah, so they'll get clips with every episode.  MARY: So it's full service.  NATHANIEL: Our motto and our slogan is, “You talk, we do the rest,” because that's really what it is.  MARY: Nice.  NATHANIEL: And when we do those sales calls, that's what we try to explain to those potential clients. We have two focuses…you have a professional brand, your podcast needs to reflect that.  MARY: Right.   NATHANIEL: Because you know… have you ever heard those podcasts where it's like, wow, this is a big company, why does it sound so bad?  MARY: Right. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: Right. You worked hard building your brand like your podcast should sound as good as your brand does.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, so that's one thing. And then the second emphasis we always tell them is simplicity. So we want to make it super easy. And the example I always use with potential clients is we have some travel agents who are clients and they'll record on a cruise. We make it that easy for them that they can take their equipment… it's very mobile, very light, very easy to do. And they'll record on a cruise or when they're flying to Dublin like we've so many opportunities to make it easy, but still professional for them to do.  MARY: Yeah, I love that.  NATHANIEL: And yeah, so it really is full service. We have different packages so it kind of depends. And then we have add ons as well that they can subscribe to like they might only want a transcript with the basic package as well or they might want social media management for two channels so kind of depends. Everyone's a little bit different. But yeah, it's really full service for them.  MARY: That's amazing. I think that's… I think you're filling a niche that not a lot of people even knew existed, maybe because everybody thinks everybody just grabs a microphone and starts talking.  NATHANIEL: It sounds easy to do.  MARY: It does.  NATHANIEL: Everyone thinks how hard can it be to start a podcast until you actually look into it and you're like, oh, actually a lot of steps involved to it. There are two of you doing this one right now.  MARY: And we're really shorthanded. We really… I mean we have if you're in the studio, then you would see that we have three cameras right now. And we have the… basically the audio board that Isabella, our producer, is recording everything into so she's running all of that for us right now to make sure that we have the best quality possible.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. And so there are a lot of steps that go into it. And they're a lot of things that I… you just don't think of unless you do podcasts daily. So like one thing that I'll share with the world here, one of our secrets, so we call it maximizing milliseconds or the millisecond framework just depending on who we're talking to. So everything for us, like cover art, people need to be able to look at it and immediately understand this is what your podcast is about. And the second thing is they need to understand that it's a very professionally done podcast based on the cover art because they have milliseconds to decide based on that… am I gonna listen to the episode? So it goes… the flow is the cover art, if they liked that, in that millisecond, they'll go on to look at the episode title. If they like that, they'll look at the episode description. If they like that, they'll hit play, and that's what we're trying to maximize for is hitting play and things like that, that if you don't do it daily, you don't think about how do I maximize that millisecond with a title and description for a podcast or with the cover art. So there's a lot that goes into it.   MARY: And it's super interesting. I mean, we're in the podcast business so of course, it's interesting to us, but I think that any business I think could take a podcast and that's kind of like a microcosm look at how they market themselves, right? Do you get what I'm saying? Because if you could look at this podcast, this artwork, this title, right? This kind of promo paragraph that we put with all of our podcasts, and did that lead this many people to actually listen to the podcast? How long did they listen to the podcast? And that lets you know whether you're being effective or not?  NATHANIEL: Exactly.  MARY: Right? I mean, the numbers are right there, right? Yeah. Yeah. So how many… I mean, this is time…it's time consuming to produce a podcast and do all the marketing. I know you have your sister working with the marketing. She's an expert in that area. You're the expert podcaster. And then you just hired a salesperson, is it still just the three of you or are you…?  NATHANIEL: We also have an intern from Furman.  MARY: Oh yeah.  NATHANIEL: And then we have another intern as well. So the Furman intern, she does marketing, so she's helping out with that. And then the other intern just graduated from high school I was…I mentored him during a senior project he had to do. And at the end of his year after he graduated, I was like, well, do you want an internship? And so he's doing the production side of things. Besides that, yeah, that's kind of the whole team is like the five… five or six of us.  MARY: You guys are busy.  NATHANIEL: Yeah.  MARY: Yeah. So what is your vision for the company now that you're at this point of it?  NATHANIEL: Right. That's a really good question. So I know sales wise, our vision is to get at least six more clients within the next four months. We'd really like to bring that up.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: …which we think is very doable. I know our sales guy already has like five calls booked for next week. So, will those five calls all turn into sales? I don't think so. I think maybe one. Exactly.  MARY: If we look at the normal percentages.  NATHANIEL: It's a numbers game.  MARY: It is. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: So we would like sales wise to get six more. And at that point, we would bring on… I don't know, I don't know if it's a full-time producer, but in some capacity and other producers to help with that workload.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: We really are working on kind of standardizing business, because this is something that you don't really learn unless you get into the weeds of being an entrepreneur, but if you want your business to grow, you have to be able to do it without you.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: I'm not saying I want to one day depart from my company, let it just run on its own.  MARY: But at some point, you have to step away for a vacation or something.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. You need to be able to take two weeks off. The company's not gonna burn down. So we're lucky we're at a point where we're having a steady flow of income. We have a good set of clients. We have more that we think will come on. And before we get too large, we kind of want to standardize business so that it can operate without us and so that when we do need to expand, we're not caught off guard.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: So a lot of right now is like we just hope that we can work under like standard operating procedures and training targets that we're building out. But I mean, ultimately long term, it's a really good question. I don't know if I have a specific answer.  MARY: I mean, I can see the exponential growth on this because mostly, this is a great, like we've said, a great marketing tool for companies and for nonprofits and it's an easy one for nonprofits to get into because it is lower cost than other ways of marketing, right? And you have the potential to reach so many more people as well than if you were just you know, get a PSA spot on the local news. NATHANIEL: And then you can do it from your couch if you wanted to.  MARY: Exactly.  NATHANIEL: So that makes it easy. I would say long term… I think we want to branch out with… still within the podcast industry, but we kind of have our own network built in now, right? The more podcast clients that we get, the more attractive we are to advertisers.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: And we can bundle all of our podcasts together and offer those hosts advertising opportunities. So I know that's something we want to get into. Obviously getting more clients and just kind of expanding the company… getting more… I know it'd be great if we could get like 100 clients one day, and produce 100 podcasts. And I do think there's part of our strategy that does involve doing some original content again, so throwback to like Amalfi Media.  MARY: Right. Amalfi. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: So doing some of our own podcasts Studio X branded content with the purpose of attracting potential clients as a sales strategy. That doesn't mean they're going to be really gimmicky and like here's why you need a podcast but actually really good content, but just produced by Podcast Studio X. So then people can look it up and be like, oh, like they made that podcast. Yes. Yeah. Cool. Okay, well, maybe they'll make my podcast.  MARY: I will tell you a friend of mine, who is a reporter for Forbes, has a book out there called the one person…one person company. One million dollar one person companies, something like that. I'm probably butchering that title. But you get the gist. And every single one of them is educational companies, online education companies.  NATHANIEL: Really? Interesting.  MARY: Yeah, so that's kind of the arm that you're talking about there. That kind of educational kind of arm of this is how you could be doing this.  NATHANIEL: Yeah exactly. That's really fascinating.  MARY: Yeah. Yeah. It's super interesting. And it's a subscription-based type of thing. That's why I asked the subscription based thing question because subscription…if it's subscription-based, you don't have to worry about necessarily reselling until the end of the year. And then it's also kind of automatic as well, right? So for instance, my yoga guru has… we pay $25 a month, and I figured out what he's making based on all of us who… and I did it conservatively, to be a part of his academy, right? And all of these are online classes and whatnot, and it's ridiculous like what he's doing it from and he just tapes his normal yoga classes in the town where he is and then gives talks and things like that. And then by paying that membership fee, then we get, you know, access to all of that, and it's a smart way to go. So smart when you're doing things like this.   NATHANIEL: Yeah, unfortunately, for what we do is very specialized. So…  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: …we can't charge $25 for it.  MARY: No. Exactly. Yeah. This is… I'm talking $25 a month and then you get access to free classes. This is not like that at all. Yeah.   NATHANIEL: But no subscriptions definitely…  MARY: That's like a gym membership, right?  NATHANIEL: Yeah. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs like need to find ways to make that revenue recurring.  MARY: Exactly.  NATHANIEL: Because otherwise, like if you sell something for just 25 bucks, you're always chasing that next client.  MARY: Exactly.  NATHANIEL: And part of it is we should always chase our next client. So we're not going to stop if we get to like 20.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: But you know, you need to make sure that you have income coming in, you have revenue coming in. And finding out your pricing is super difficult too like figuring that out is so challenging. It took us a long time to figure out what are our prices. Yeah, we were facing some consequences because of that.  MARY: Right. If you're…and that's a thing that I think creatives and you are creative, sometimes have a hard time pricing ourselves appropriately.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. I always advise people, to go higher. Go higher than what you expect, whatever the number is, in your mind, triple or quadruple it. And the framework that we used when we were figuring out our new pricing… and we have three different tiers, the lowest starting at 2990 seconds at 4990 and then 16,990, something like that, what we did was we imagined the company has reached its full potential, right? We have 100 clients, what are all the processes that need to be filled out? What are all the key members, the employees that we need? And then the price is based on that. So we might not be there right now but if we do get to that point, right, we don't want to be caught behind because we were pricing too low in the past. And we've actually found that it resonates better with the clients that we have, the new pricing because I think there's a psychological component where you're paying so much that's like, well, you know, I'm getting my money's worth and you are with us. That's the thing. It's not like tricky.   MARY: And here's the thing, the numbers show, right? The numbers are going to show what… whether that's worth it or not. Right and so yeah, it's not I'm throwing this money at this, you know, wild marketing scheme, and I have no way to measure whether it's working or not, right? You do with podcasting for sure. What's been the most rewarding part of starting this company or going through this iteration?  NATHANIEL: The most rewarding part. That is a great question. I find it very rewarding to do things in the local community. So we have a lot of nonprofits from Greenville that we work with.  MARY: Yeah, I love that.  NATHANIEL: That is really cool to see the impact and one of our nonprofits about local civics like the podcast that they make about local civics…not many people get like too jazzed when you hear…  MARY: The word civics.  NATHANIEL: Yeah exactly. That's not too enthusiastic a genre. Yet, we've reached 70,000 people. I think we just surpassed that the other day.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: And that's really cool.  MARY: That's amazing. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: To know people are having an impact from a local civics podcast that brings elected officials on and local leaders, things like that. So having an impact in Greenville, because I've lived here 18 years now, has been really cool. I always wanted to be involved in Greenville somehow.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: So to do that is awesome. It's very rewarding to meet all these cool people we interview also. That's something I mean, you have like let's say we're at like seven clients and they each do a podcast a week. That's a lot of people you're meeting every week.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: They're all guest based podcasts. That's a lot of people. Some of them are very cool people. Some are…very interesting people.  MARY: Some are like trying to pull teeth, trying to pull information out. But yeah.  NATHANIEL: And I would say the failure aspect has been very rewarding because it's… no one likes to fail.  MARY: Oh, it makes you better at your job.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. If you can learn from your failure though, that's really cool. I''ll be the first one that I fail a lot. I still fail regularly.  MARY: We all do. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. And the sooner you can learn from your failure. Like what I was saying when I switched from Amalfi Media to the Greenville Podcast Company and then Podcast Studio X, the sooner you can learn from that I mean, the better you will be…your business will be. I found a lot of rewards in the failure. And also just you know, the fact that we're actually bringing money in has been very rewarding. You know, a business model that works like it's something that sounds really silly, but it's very rewarding. The company that's actually doing things and hiring people and bringing interns in and expanding.  MARY: Yeah, and I… listeners, I hope you and those of you watching on YouTube, I hope you get that from this conversation is that I think you're such a good representation of some of what entrepreneurs go through sometimes is, you know, you have this idea for this company, and then you pivot based on what you're what you're learning, what you're discovering, and you keep pivoting until you come to the iteration that actually, you know, begins to make you money and begins to be, you know, profitable and that's where you are right now.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, and I think a lot of people quit early.  MARY: I think they do too.  NATHANIEL: A lot of people quit at that Amalfi Media phase. You hit your first failure and say well, I guess I am a failure of an entrepreneur. If you look at… sure I think a lot of people would love to be Steve Jobs or Zuckerburg or  Bill Gates where your first thing is going to be a hit. But if you look at I think the founder of Starbucks is a great example…I can't remember his name… it took him like 10 times to be successful. Ten times of failing and trying and failing and trying until he got something that worked. You have to be willing to do that ten times. Maybe still even failing that tenth time.  MARY: Yeah. And still getting the naysayers on board. I think of Sara Blakely, with Spanx, and all of the people who told her there's no room in this business for this and of course, they were men and she's like, no, I swear there is, right? I'm a woman. We need these.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, I saw her post on Linkedin. It's very inspiring.  MARY: It's super inspiring. So when you get to that point where you have to make that pivot, I agree. Most people I won't say most but many people kind of bail at that point and they're like, okay, I've got to go get a real job. I have a family or whatever. But I think you're right, if you just keep learning from each little step of the way, and do what you're doing, then there you're going to see the fruit of your labor.  NATHANIEL: And also I think another big tip is to ground yourself in reality. I was guilty of being…  MARY: High in the sky.  NATHANIEL: Sometimes you know, you don't have a $10 million angel investor with you.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: And you might have to start small and build your way up to being your own $10 million investor. But you know, be grounded in reality. That's a big one, I wish I had told myself that a long time ago.  MARY: Yeah. All right. One last piece of advice maybe that you have for our listeners.  NATHANIEL: One last piece of advice, I would say, well, it depends. Is this like… who's your target audience… other entrepreneurs or just?  MARY: Students who are thinking about becoming entrepreneurs. Anyone who's thinking about beginning a small business…  NATHANIEL: I would say that the most important thing, at the end of the day, is your ability to learn. Because no one teaches you…  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: …how to run a business. No one taught me personally how to produce podcasts. No one teaches you half the things I do on a daily basis. So you have to have a willingness to learn. Don't go into it thinking that you know it all because I think that's gonna set you up for failure more than anything else.   MARY: I agree with that. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: And yeah learning is just super important. Learn from a variety of topics too. Don't just get so specific on your niche or your genre that you don't want anything else. I think there's a lot of value in reading and studying other businesses like  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: For example, there's a great book called Bitter Brew. It's about the downfall of the Anheuser-Busch family. There are so many nuggets of wisdom that you can learn by reading that. It has nothing to do with podcasting,but it's just value and seeing…how did they rise? How did they fall? And so learn. MARY: Bitter Brew. I always love it when people give book suggestions to our tour audience. I love that.  NATHANIEL: Another really good one, unrelated to business, but I think everyone should read is My Early Life by Winston Churchill, one of the best authors that I've read. So that's a really good one and then the Leonardo da Vinci Biography by Walter Isaacson. We're going on to book reviews now.  MARY: We could do a whole book review podcast.  NATHANIEL: Listen to Books and Looks is one of the podcasts that we produce that just does book reviews. MARY: Books and Looks. NATHANIEL: And interviews the authors.  MARY:  Oh, I'm gonna have to have you…I'm gonna have to get on that podcast when I publish my book. So yeah, I just, yeah, I'm gonna have to do that. All right. I learn so much from you every time you're on here and, you know, I've been in the broadcast business for 20 plus years now and I swear every time I talk to Nathaniel I learn something. So thank you so much for joining us. NATHANIEL: Thank you for having me and can I get a little promo?  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: Check out Podcast Studio X. It's this podcaststudiox.com. Look at our services. See if any of that interests you or if you know anyone it might interest, let us know. MARY: And that's exactly what I was gonna tell everybody to do. See, he's such a pro. Nathaniel, thank you so much.  MARY: That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Listeners, thank you so much for listening. If you're watching on YouTube, thank you as well. We appreciate it. This podcast is produced through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producer Isabella Martinez, who is in charge of all of these cameras, as we talked about and everything that's going on in the studio today. So make sure that you comment on the podcast and give her kudos for her good work when you listen to or watch this podcast. But for now, I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. Until next time everybody, dream big.        

Upcoming Event!How Can Mindfulness Give You a More Abundant Retirement?Are you ready to let go of anxiety and find the peace of mind you seek as you prepare for your golden years? Your Answer Lies in These 5 Critical Retirement Questions: Am I on track for financial independence?What do I need to do to get on track?How do I design a mindful investing portfolio?How do I manage that portfolio and my income over time through changing markets?How do I prepare non-financially for retirement? What are the dominant variables in a happy retirement?Learn more: https://courses.mindful.money/mindful-retirement-review-workshop/Dr. Mary Martin is a trauma sensitive mindfulness educator, a futures thinker, and the author of Mindfulness for Financial Advisors: Practicing A New Way of Being . She's certified by Brown University to teach mindfulness-based stress reduction and has a PhD from NYU's School of Culture, Education & Human Development. Dr. Mary has worked in financial services for over two decades, has been teaching mindful awareness to advisors since 2015, and today she joins the show to share the work she does as a mindfulness educator, and why mindfulness is so critical in the field of financial advice.

Have you ever wondered about the crazy fun, interesting, and shocking things celebrity wedding planners see behind the scenes? The author of this really cool new book titled: "Without a Hitch" joins Michelle today on the podcast. Author Mary Huddleston is a a former wedding planner to celebrities and to people who have spent insanely large amounts of money on weddings. Mary's new book isn't a documentary necessarily, but is based on the things she's done and seen in her career. The main characters of the book are relatable at times and over the top hilarious at others. Whether you're planning a wedding now, or you work as a wedding planner yourself, you're going to laugh your head off reading this book. In the mean time get to know Mary on today's show as she offers up a few sneak peaks with Michelle. Big Takeaways * The more money and family involved, the more drama. * A good wedding planner has your back and acts as a liaison between you and the vendors and more. Sometimes, they even act as a therapist. It's important to really connect with your planner. * When it comes to day-of coordination, Mary also does not advise it. Minimum, she recommends hiring a planner three months out. They need to have time to give advice and review everything. It can't happen in one day or month of. If you hire someone earlier on they can fix problems, negotiate contracts, and do all the magic that planners do. Tips and questions to ask a wedding planner you might not have thought to ask: 1. How long have you been doing this? 2. How often have you worked at this venue? 3. Make sure they are the kind of person who can stand up for you when needed. 4. Do you have experience doing the type of wedding we're doing? Links We Referenced https://www.instagram.com/mrssouthernsocial/ (https://www.instagram.com/mrssouthernsocial/) https://www.pinterest.com/mrssouthernsocialofficial/ (https://www.pinterest.com/mrssouthernsocialofficial/) https://mrssouthernsocial.com/ (https://mrssouthernsocial.com) https://mrssouthernsocial.com/book-club-guide/ (https://mrssouthernsocial.com/book-club-guide/) https://pleasebeseated.com (https://pleasebeseated.com) Quotes “She [Asher] went off and pursued a proper journalism degree at Colombia and I went and, you know, helped brides change their underwear for a living.” - Mary _ _“You know, you go to these weddings and something's always going to go wrong, it's just to what degree. You know, and obviously, if the guest is seeing it then it's probably a large problem. But there's so much that goes on behind the scenes and the really good vendors and wedding planners you never know about it. Or if you do it's at the end of the event and it hasn't ruined the event.” - Mary Plan your wedding using The Big Wedding Planning Master Class (https://www.thebigweddingplanningmasterclass.com/). A self-paced digital course created with love for you by Christy & Michelle. The Big Wedding Planning Podcast is... * Hosted and produced by Michelle Martinez. * Edited by Veronica Gruba. * Music by Steph Altman of Mophonics (https://www.mophonics.com/). * On Instagram @thebigweddingplanningpodcast and be sure to use #planthatwedding when posting, so you can get our attention! * Inviting you to become part of our Facebook Group! Join us and our amazing members. Just search for The Big Wedding Planning Podcast Community on Facebook. * Easy to get in touch with. Email us at thebigweddingplanningpodcast@gmail.com or Call and leave a message at 415-723-1625 and you might hear your voice on an episode * On Patreon. Become a member (https://www.patreon.com/thebigweddingplanningpodcast) and with as little as $5 per month, you get bonus episodes, special newsletters and Zoom Cocktail Hours with Michelle! Special Guest: Mary Huddleston.

“Housing…employment…daytime structure. There needs to be something for people in between all those medical appointments in order to really have a positive meaningful life.” -  Guest Mary Guerrera, Exec. director After hospitalization - what? Many people with mental health issues, and their families, struggle to find answers to that question.What would true support and community look like? What is possible?Fellowship Place in New Haven, CT has the following mission statement:Mission StatementTo serve adults living with mental illness by offering a full range of therapeutic support and rehabilitation services that promote independence, wellness, and a meaningful life.Our guest today is Mary Guerrara, Executive Director of Fellowship Place.Terms to know:HUD = Housing and Urban DevelopmentNAMI = National Alliance on Mental IllnessNIMBY = “not in my back yard” We ask:What is Fellowship place? Mission and how you make it work .What is it like there? Your personal story - why do you do this work?How is it funded?How can someone get a placement?What are the challenges? How can families help? -  ADVOCACY. Fight for research. etc.Quotes: from Mary“You can't take no for an answer” “The most significant thing that I have found in my career is how you can't just rely on the government, you can't just rely on professionals, you really need a partnership.”“Families can advocate for more funding to be able to develop projects that combine all of these elements:  affordability, support services, and a peer support network.”“There needs to be something for people in between all those medical appointments in order to really have a positive meaningful life.”Links: https://fellowshipplace.org/ Pathways:https://pways.org/ Who Are the 3 Moms?Want us to cover a topic? Ask us a question? Facebook page @Schizophrenia3MomsRandye Kaye -Broadcaster, Actress, Voice Talent, Speaker, and Author (“Ben Behind his Voices”)Miriam Feldman – Artist, Mom, Author “He Came in With It”Mindy Greiling – member of the Minnesota House of Representatives for twenty years. Activist, Legislator, Author (“Fix What You Can“)  

Mary Magdalene is the ultimate example of a female apostle (spiritual teacher and leader) in early Christianity. But Mary as well as her Gospel have long-since been neglected and forgotten. As it says in the Gospel of Mary: "You did not see me nor did you know me. You mistook the garment I wore for my true self. And you did not recognize me." Today, we commemorate the return of the Gospel According to Mary Magdalene, and her visions of the Resurrected Christ. In Gnostic scriptures such as the Gospel of Mary, unenlightened human existence is portrayed as a kind of night of the living dead, souls living in a world of sleep caught up in dreams of illusion, trapped in spiritual ignorance somewhere in time, limited to only a couple of dimensions, tethered to material existence seemingly unable to become aware of anything more. One of my favorite passages from Mary is when a liberated soul exclaims: "I was set loose from a world and from the chain of forgetfulness that exists in time!" For the mystic-soul there is no need to construct outward temples made of wood and stone, as the human body itself is already the ideal temple of the Spirit. I'm sure this "Kingdom of God is within you" message of the Gnostic or mystical gospels is one of the reasons why they were not politically useful to some spiritual bureaucrats in antiquity and were banned. Mary's contemplative view of the teachings of Christ is in harmony with the wisdom of countless saints, mystics and masters, that the focus is "within", not elsewhere in the outer world of the five senses, the kingdoms of this world. Thus, contemplative meditation for mystics serves as a kind of heavenly "portal" or "doorway" to the Divine: "I left the world with the aid of another world; a design was erased, by virtue of a higher design. Henceforth I travel toward Repose, where time rests in the Eternity of Time; I go now into Silence.' Having said all this, Mary became silent, for it was in silence that the Teacher spoke to her.'" (The Gospel of Mary Magdalene)

Today I have the privilege of sharing with you, Mary Powell. The reason I'm bringing Mary on is because she's having some wonderful success in her trading, and we want to share that and she has a lot of lessons. And also she wants to share. But Mary, you might not know this, you are, you have the privilege of being the first female trader that we're interviewing on the podcast. So I haven't interviewed too many people on the podcast, most of the episodes have just been me. But we have been starting to interview, you know, people that are going through our programs and having success and different different traders, and our listeners seem to like it. So I said, Alright, let's bring some more on. But I did want to get it from a female perspective, because I do know that and studies have shown this that females are better at trading than men. Mary: There is that? And let's hope I'm not the last. Allen: No, no, you won't be. Mary: Start a new trend. Allen: Yeah. Yep. So I'm trying to line up a couple more. So hopefully, we'll have a lot more. Okay. And I am seeing that we are seeing more females in the program. So before, when we started, it was almost 100% All men, now it's become maybe 80-20. I think that with people like you coming on and sharing and saying, Hey, look, you know, women can do this as well, it's, there's nothing, there's no magic or anything to it. I think you'll be a role model for others who are trying it, but they haven't maybe stepped forward or they haven't put their hands up and said, hey, you know, I'm interested or something. So I think definitely, that will help. Because a lot of times, you know, when we're doing some type of like a case study with someone, it might be like, Oh, maybe it's a grandfather that lives or they used to work as a firefighter, you know, and he's talking about his story and this and that, then we'll notice that all of a sudden, we get a big influx of people who are grandfathers who used to be firefighters, or other firefighters. So whoever the case study is we seem to attract people like that. So I'm hoping that we can attract more women into the group. So I think that you're a trailblazer for that. So thank you Mary: Hoping for that as well. We can all support each other.  Allen: Cool. So Mary, how long have you been trading options? Mary: I have been trading options for more than 20 years, I will date myself and tell you that I did participate back in the late 90s when the option Industry Council to still a marvelous group of free education on options. But at that time, they were trying to solicit more business in the options. And they would go to various big metropolitan cities, rent hotel banquet rooms, and give two or three day training sessions for free about options. And so that's how long I've known about options. I would say I was probably a dabbler for a long time trying to master the various concepts about the Greeks and different option strategies. And my career probably took the front seat at that time, and I just didn't dedicate the time needed to really focus on it. Until probably in the last five years, many people in my family or friends have retired. And when I went to the financial planner and start working the numbers, and I didn't like those numbers. Wanna see, you got to work for 10 or 15 more years, I'm very fortunate that I do enjoy my job. But I don't want to have to have that pain over me that I'm a slave to it. So that's when I really got serious and started really honing my attention and my education efforts on options. Allen: So about five years ago, you got serious? Mary: Yeah. Allen: And I want to ask you like back in the day when you first when you when you first start, would you remember how much the commission's were back then? Mary: They were probably in the range of 14 to $16 and each, each side, so you know, $30 a round trip and that was back in the day when the naming nomenclature was alphabetical. They didn't go by month in week. They didn't even have weeklies back then. Yeah. So you had to learn all of that. Yeah, it's been fun to watch the evolution and with electronic trade.  Allen: Yeah I mean it's so so much simpler now and easier. And I remember, like, I didn't get started. I don't know. It's been a while. I think it's like maybe 15-16 coming close to 20 years for me, but when I started Thinkorswim was already there. And, you know, everybody was blown away. They're like, Oh my god. This is so amazing. So I'm like, okay, but this is cool. It's good. I mean, it's good to have these nice features and stuff, but I don't get but they're like, now you don't understand. You don't understand what we've been through. You know, to get a quote, you have to call your broker on the phone. And then he has to go look it up for you. And it takes like, 10 minutes to get a quote. Oh, wow. Okay, yeah, this is all real time. This is cool. This is better. So yeah, people starting now. I mean, the tools available education is available. It's a lot simpler than back in the day. So was it just because of the money aspect that got you involved in Options? Or was there something else? Mary: It was primarily the money aspect. And, you know, I was working a full time job, but I wanted to get into more multiple streams of income in different ways. But my job requires probably 50 plus hours a week. So that did limit me from what I can go out and get a second job. I just totally burnout so and I didn't have the time to focus to open my own business or do something like that. So what could I do that could generate cash flow that didn't require a lot of time? That's where Options fit into the scenario. Allen: Okay. And you you're working from home right now? Mary: Yes. Allen: Okay. What do you do? If you don't mind? Mary: I'm an auditor. Allen: Okay. For like, the for the IRS or something or? Mary: No, for a retail company - food retailer, I audit financial statements. Okay, like Sarbanes Oxley. Allen: So okay, so about 50 hours a week you spend on the job? How much time do you spend trading? Mary: So overall, all of my trading, I probably spend, I'll say, a half an hour a day. Allen: Okay. Mary: When I started with your group, I first started with the blank check program. So in that trading, if I'm not making a trade that day, I probably spend five minutes a check - twice a day, which more out of curiosity than necessity. I could check it once a day. If I'm making a trade, I might spend 10 to 15 minutes analyzing what I'm going to do, and then I make the trade for the month. Okay. Allen: And so what have your results been so far? Mary: So far? So I started trading live, blank check program in February of this year. And in that eight months, I've averaged 7% return per month. Mary: Very nice. And so far, I've made 16,500. I started just with the minimum amount to open an account on TD Ameritrade, 10,000. Okay, and I have added some more money, so I could expand the number of contracts I trade in. Allen: Awesome. So what's your goal? Is it to put it aside for retirement or double your income, supplement the income, so you can try early? Mary: Put it aside for retirement, and then in the hope of retiring early, in the next three to five years? Allen: So basically, you're gonna, you're gonna you're gonna leave the money in and just keep growing that account? Mary: Yes. Allen: Okay. How long do you think it'll take? Mary: So, with the blank check trading in conjunction with my equities trading, which I was just starting before getting introduced to your podcast, and we can talk about that, but I was just starting to kind of glean in on the selling puts strategy and your paths of trading - the wheel strategy, right before I started listening to your podcast. So between the two accounts, I hope to be able to retire in three to five years. Allen: That's awesome. That's awesome. So about five to seven years early. Mary: Yes. Allen: Okay. And do you have any children? Mary: No, I do not. Allen: Okay. All right.  Mary: So that makes it easier. Allen: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You know, she, she, she enjoys learning about the trading. And I've taught her in the past, but eventually, and then she started her own business. And so she's busy with there, and then she's busy with the kids. And she's like, Yeah, I don't want to deal with the trading. You know, she's like, you're doing fine. You do it. I don't want to deal with it. But we do have somebody else on our staff. And she is, unfortunately her husband passed away. I think it's been about a year and a half or two years from cancer. And so she's raising her four boys alone. And, you know, at the company here, I make it a requirement that everybody that works here, they have to know how to trade whether they do it We're not, you know, that's up to them. But they have to know what our customers are going through. They have to know the lingo, they have to know how to articulate. And so she's been, she's been killing it since she started. She said, she's learning and she's like, Oh, my god, you know, I've been working with you for two years. Now, why didn't I do this before? So.. Mary: Oh that's excellent! Allen: Yeah, it's, it's really, it's really cool. And the fact that, you know, you mentioned it only takes a few minutes a day, you can still work, you can still handle other responsibilities. It's not that it's not that time consuming. So that's one of the things I get, we got to get the word out, you know, we got to get the word out. Mary: I know but my heart goes out when I see older, retired individuals in the workforce. And I just say to myself, I hope they're doing it for social reasons and not economic, that they made the choice that they want to be out here working, because this is that easy at that age, and I give them all the credit in the world. Allen: Yeah, I mean, you know, you go to Walmart, and they have the greeters. And you know, they're standing there, and they can't, it's tough to see, it really is. But you said that you had started trading options about five years ago? Or was that Equities and Options or? Mary: That was just the equities? Allen: How are you doing with that? Mary: Very well, very well. That account is much larger. And, again, you know, I have to employ passive trading, because I just don't have the time. But I'm averaging 6% a month on that. So just to your principles may not seem like a lot, and I'm not going to be a millionaire overnight. But the compounding principle, in action, will. Allen: Yeah, no, 6% a month is nothing to.. Mary: No yeah so I'm beating the gentlemen over at a brokerage to remain nameless that other smaller accounts I have. So I'm very happy with the return. Allen: Cool. So how do you balance? Like, how do you decide how much to have in each? Because I mean, you said you're doing better in the oil. So however you decided, which is which you want to focus more time on? Mary: That's kind of a crossroads that I'm at, at this point, because I am doing so well, that I mentioned to you, the financial advisor, when I went last month for my tax checkup said, you have stopped trading for the year, or you're going to throw yourself into the next tax bracket, you do not want that. Focus has become the task, tax aspects of it all. So again, kudos to your podcast, because you address those types of things, all the section 1256 types of trades. And so that's where I'm at right now is evaluating. Okay, do I move more of my money into the oil trading? And I just signed up for the weekly trader, which is good deal more in the index funds - yes. So that would give me a better tax advantage. Allen: Okay. All right. Yeah. I mean, you, you know, I've never I know you can buy SPY. I don't know if you can buy SPX I've never actually tried to, that'd be interesting to know, cuz I know, the SPX. You know, the SPX does give you the tax advantage, the 1256. But I've never actually tried to buy a share of that. I don't know if you can, I know, you could buy call options, or, but I don't know if that'll be interesting to know. Yeah. Mary: Check it out. It's a first world problem. And I'm kind of on the water as well as like, do I keep working? or Now I, you have given me the freedom of time choice and choice do I mean, I could make what I make at my job trading? Do I do that full time? Or do I, you know, stick with the job as I can, then knowing that I do have the freedom of choice that if it gets to be too much, or I don't want to do it anymore, and I walk away from it. Allen: So you can you do that now? Or you could have to wait another three years? Five years? Mary: I could do that now. I think I'm just sticking with it. Because of the health insurance. And those sides thing? Yeah, I could still manage the job and the trading... Allen: Right. Right. So why not? Right. And you said there's, you know, there's a social aspect. So, you know, you've known these people for so long that it's like, kinda like family now. Mary: They are. That's very true. Yes, I have a great team that I work with. Allen: Cool, cool. So how does your husband feel about you trading? Mary: He has no interest in it whatsoever. He just lets me do my thing. I mean, I'm not used to getting his money or the mortgage money. So he just saw that's her little hobby. He's retired. So he spends most of his day either on a motorcycle or a mountain bike or doing the hobbies he enjoys. So.. Allen: Wow very nice. So he's never told you to be like, Hey, can you take care of my money too? Mary: Oh, he wanted me to do that with his 401k. And like no. Not gonna enable you, I'd be happy to teach you what I do. Allen: Well that was fun. Mary: He went out and got a money manager and.. Allen: Ahh that was funny.. you guys can do it together you know, swap stories, discuss different ideas, argue about which ticker symbols to buy. Mary: Yeah, I don't think you can handle the... honestly. Allen: It's not for everybody. No. Now the funny thing is, I do remember when you first called us so you got on the phone with us to learn about the program, and to get in. I actually talked to you, which I haven't I don't really talk to most people, but I don't know what it was. I was listening to you talking and you know, with Cory, you're going back and forth. And I hopped on the call, and you're like, Yeah, I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna think about it. And then I was like, okay, you know, and then later on, you actually came back. And you actually, you actually came back and did it. In hindsight, would you still have waited? Mary: Well, no, it was active waiting. You know, it was the trust, but verify. So what I did after that call was based on what I knew, and kind of figured you were doing with these options I pay a portrayed is for three months. And it was all positive. So I said, Okay, I'm gonna take the leap of faith and go for it. Allen: Cool, good. So that means, yeah, so you've had like, instead of just eight months, you've had like, 11 months of gains? Mary: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that you talked about on one of the podcasts is, you mentioned compared to individuals, one person took the program and went and did really well with it. And the other person just over analyzed and questioned and said, you know, it's too simple. This can't work again, if you had to ask me what was my biggest challenge in implementing it was just grasping the simplicity of it. I was like, Okay. And granted, I, you know, I did come in knowing the fundamentals of Options Trading, but I went through the, there's only six lessons. And so I was like, Well, I must be really tired. Maybe they're on a more on a different page or get it again, tomorrow. Nope, I came back. And I went through the six lessons again. And I went, Okay, let's do it took a deep breath and placed the trade and been good ever since. Allen: That's awesome. That's great to hear. Yeah. You know, I mean, I always tried to keep it as simple as possible. And sometimes like, as options traders, you know, if you come in learning about options, and like you said, you know, you go to the council, and they tell you, Oh, you got to know the Greeks. And you got to know the gammas and the Vegas and, and all this stuff. And people come in and they're like, what about this? What about that? And I'm like, you don't need to worry about it. It's like, Mary: There's so many strategies and strangle... there's iron condor, and people just get overwhelmed. Yo, I don't know where to start or how to do it. And when you look at your system, you're just like, Nope, just follow the straight path that I've already blazed for you. And it'll all be good. Allen: Yep. The biggest problem I have some time is like, you know, like, I knew that you had been doing it, you had been trading for a while. So in my mind, it was like, okay, you know, my hardest part with you is going to be to get you to maybe suspend disbelief a little bit, and to kind of stop doing all the stuff you're already doing. You know, and be like, this is the path just follow these steps. You don't need to do anything else. Just, you know, don't overcomplicate it, because we have people in the program in the group. They come in and they're like, Yeah, you know, you told me to do this but you I'm gonna do this double Condor butterfly thingy. And I'm like all right, let me know how it turns out. Mary: Yeah, it's like bumper bowling just head down the middle keep aiming the head bin?  Allen: Yeah, that's why sometimes.. Mary: ..you're out to do I mean, no, it has I get myself in trouble is if I go against the rules, and they a towel, and then my tracking sheet of what rule did I violate and what lessons did I learn from it? And so I only have myself to blame. It's not the program. Allen: Cool. Cool. So what was besides the simplicity, what was the hardest thing to implement? Or like this could be for your equity trading or for your options trading, to go from, you know, learning and not doing as well, to making that switch to being okay, now I'm becoming consistently profitable. What did it take to make that switch for you? Mary: I think in your mind, you're always trying to hit that home run that you talk about. But if you just get your consistency down with the base hits and small amounts, just keep compounding and keep compounding, you know, all of a sudden, you look at the balance, and you're like, wow, alright, I'm getting some traction, and I'm making progress. And I can do this, I can do this. Allen: Awesome. So what was the biggest challenge in implementing? Mary: Again, I think it's just trying to keep myself from over analyzing it all the time trying to make it more difficult than it is because it's like, well, if it's this easy, and why isn't everyone doing it? Right? So your brain is going, Well, maybe if I add this, or I start looking at this number, analyzing this graph, or this chart, I'll get the edge and it's like, no, just, you know, take a little cream off the top and minimize your stress. And, you know, keep compounding and you'll get there. Allen: So how was it? How did you overcome that in your own mind?  Mary: Just trying to be grateful and satisfied with the results that I have, and not be greedy? Yep. Yeah, keep reminding myself, it's gonna be okay. You know, no matter what happens, now, I have the knowledge and the tools to always be able to financially provide for myself. And that freedom, we can't put a price on it. And I can't thank you enough. I owe you immensely. Allen: No, you're the one that did all the work so...   Mary: But you shared it, and you don't give up on me. Yeah, I'm just a stubborn Irish girl, you let it settle. And I'll come back around. Allen: Yeah, we nobody has accused us of not sending enough emails. Mary: I love your email. Allen: Like one of my mentors years ago, when somebody that I learned from, you know, he kept drilling it into everybody's head, anybody that listened that, you know, get a good education, because that is the one thing that nobody can take away from you, you know, they can take away everything else. They could take away your status, your money or your, you know, physical belongings they can. And he was talking to people from different countries. So he's like, you know, they could expel you out of your country, and kick you out and take everything that you have, but they can never take your education, you will take that with you everywhere you go for the rest of your life. And I think you hit it on the on your head, you know, when you when you mentioned that you're like, now I have a skill that no matter what happens, I'm going to be able to just, you know, go into the market and just extract money. And.. Mary: Yeah, even if all I need is, you know, if I retired and I just need the money to pay the property taxes. I can do that and spend the rest of my time I may be on the beach, but yeah.. Allen: Yep. And you I mean, you compare that to, you know, like the financial planners, you know, they go to school, they get degrees, they follow the news, and this and that, and they do all this research every day, and they're supposed to know everything that's going on in the economy in the market and everything. And hands down. You're beating them. It's like, why are you guys doing that hard, it's tough. If you could do this instead? Mary: So to bring it back here point about being a woman. I mean, we know they are better traders statistically, but just we know in the workforce, you get discriminated against and your pay. And as a petite woman Oh, even more so everybody treats me like a child. You see me at car dealership? Oh, oh, no. Yeah, no. They just only talked to my husband. And he's like, don't talk to me, she's the one buying the car. You know, for you to be honoring to women to give that gift. And it's that freedom of choice that you don't have to be locked into a situation or stay with an individual or with a company if you don't want to only for financial reasons that you can have the freedom to choose the life you want. Allen: Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. I haven't like as a man. I've never even thought about that. You know, I've never had to think about that. Yeah, that you can if you're in a situation that it's not healthy, that a lot of women like you said they feel trapped. They can't leave because they're dependent on one thing or another and they don't have the resources to handle it now especially.. Mary: When you're behind the screen. There's no discrimination. They don't know who you are. You're just out there trading with everybody else. So it's a level playing field. You can make it happen. Allen: Yeah, and you're actually going It's not even level you have the advantage. For, whatever reason, you know, I guess they say that the female mind doesn't take as much risk. It's, you know, it's more about staying calm and collected. And like you said this the small games and watching out for security more than, hey, I want to hit the Grand Slam, maybe that that's what it is but yeah.. Mary: Put your ego aside a little bit and, and in for people that I know a lot of people I'm not good at math. That's not it either, you know, I think if you're like you say if you're wise, big enough, you can learn this. And it's a B, if you're in a store, and they raise the prices on everything by 50%, you're gonna get out of the store, right? If you're in the store, and they lower the price by 50%, you're gonna buy everything. So it's same kind of concept.  Allen: Yep. So all you need is a calculator. Or if not, then you could just use a spreadsheet and this spreadsheet. Cool, awesome. So what do you think the future holds for you? No Mary: Choice. And that's a good feeling that I'm not locked in. If the job gets to be too much, I can walk away and trade full time, and I'll be alright. And if the job holds out, and I retire in three to five years, then I can enjoy more time in retirement doing things I want to do and giving back. Because that's what it's about. It's a human. Allen: Mm  hmm. That's amazing. Yeah, that's great. Because I know, you know, I don't know how or when this COVID thing is gonna completely go away, or if it's ever gonna go away, but there's been a lot of people who had to quit their jobs. And they couldn't, they didn't go back to work for one reason or another. And taking early retirement. And now, it's become a lot tougher, you know, people with pre existing conditions, and then you get older and then you have to go in and it's like, yeah, I don't want to expose myself, I don't want to expose my my loved ones. And if you have something like this, where you can sit at home in a few minutes and use your intelligence and use your common sense and push some buttons, and the money, you know, it's it's, it takes a while, you know, it's not overnight, that you start making money. But I think in the long run, it's better off. And based on that, I wanted to ask you, how long did it take you to get your you know, your mind around the whole concept and start making money? Mary: In the blank check? Well, both both. I think so because I kind of started out as a dabbler and learning like everybody else and tried the strategies of buying options first. And you know, that's so hit or miss and get frustrated. And this and that. And so when I finally started going on the other side and selling options and having success, and it's like, Okay, God encouraged and, okay, now I see how this is working. Okay, let me look at every strategy and the pros and cons. And so, you know, with selling options, okay, what's the worst that can happen? I have to buy the stock. So I stick to, you know, high dividend stocks that I don't wouldn't mind owning otherwise. So that limits the risk on that. So I would say it probably took me two years..  Allen: Okay Mary: And then it  was consistent in my return.  Allen: Okay,so two years of learning, making mistakes, coming2 back having some winners and some losers. And then how about with the oil program? Mary: That was successful right off the bat. The only, you know, last month was my only negative month that I had. And again, that was my own fault. I didn't follow the rules. But but, you know, I could say I had, you know, I had the laws and still far ahead. So it's not one of these, you know, your program is not one thing. Oh, I'm gonna guarantee you, you know, million percent return. Allen: Yeah, and I mean, losses are part of the game. So, you know, you gotta learn to handle them..One time or another, it's gonna happen. So you might as well be ready for it. But, but the The important part is to know how to manage it, you know, and so yeah, I oil has been, has been interesting this year. You know, last year was interesting this year has been interesting, and who knows what the future holds. But I think one of the things that you mentioned you alluded to earlier is that when you're doing it and if you have like a community of other people that are doing it with you that you can bounce ideas off, it gets it gets so much easier, and it's not lonely. You know, one of the things that we see that people are like, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna try to learn it on my own", you really are kind of on your own. And there's nobody there helping you and supporting you along the way. So it takes, it takes much, much longer than it should, and, or that he needs to. Allen: Yeah, and I mean, losses are part of the game. So, you know. Mary: Exactly Allen: You got to learn to handle them it around it. Yeah, one one time or another, it's gonna happen. So you might be ready for it. But the The important part is to know how to manage it, you know? And so yeah, I oil has been, has been interesting this year, you know, last year was interesting this year has been interesting, and who knows what the future holds. But I think one of the things that you mentioned you're alluded to earlier is that when you're doing it, and if you have, like a community of other people that are doing it with you that you can bounce ideas off, it gets, it gets so much easier, and it's not lonely. You know, one of the things that we see that people are like, oh, yeah, I'm going to try to learn it on my own, you really are kind of on your own. And there's nobody there helping you and supporting you along the way. So it takes it takes much, much longer than it should and, or that it needs to. Mary: And when you get older, you know, time is money. And it's worth the cost of the program to gain that knowledge and have it all laid out for you. versus spending so much time trying to dabble on your own and figure it out. And with your program I mean, the Facebook group is all very supportive and sharing their ideas. And as well as the weekly calls. It's a great community. They're very welcoming and open to everyone's ideas and learning new things.  Allen: Yep. Hopefully, you know, we won't have any of that discrimination in there. I don't think we have.. Mary: No, I'm not sensitive at all. I mean, I know for when I first started calling in, I was the only woman on but nobody ever made any comments or said anything. They were very welcoming.  Allen: Yeah, and the culture is pretty clearly. It's not like an all boys club, you know, they're very clean. No dirty jokes really like that. But um, so what would be some of the takeaways that if you know, somebody came up to you and said, Hey, I'm thinking about learning to train and joining Options? What are some of the tips that you would give them? Mary: Well, going back to how I even came upon your podcast. So during COVID, I've only been familiar with your program for about a year and a half. So with COVID, I was doing more walking, so started to listening to podcasts while I walk. So I searched for options, and yours came up. And when I saw how much how many episodes there were in content, I thought, Oh, this will take me three years worth of get through..so this would be great. And I got through all those podcasts in about two or three months. That's how good they were. And every one it was like, yes, that's exactly what happened. Oh, he's given such great advice, and it is down to earth. This is the real world advice. You're not sugarcoating it, you're not making promises that you can't keep. And if I had to tell people what I learned from my 20 years of trading, it would be just what you're telling people on their podcast, you know, from the ups and the downs to how to diversify. How to protect yourself from various risks. So I can't speak to the podcast strong enough.. Allen: Thank you.. Mary: That they cover the gamut of what you're going to deal with and when you become a trader. Allen: Okay, so Okay. Okay, so listen to the podcast, but what else? What else, give you some, some behind, you know, some, some, like stuff that you learned in the trenches kind of stuff? Mary: Stuff that I learned, I'll tell you that one of the best things I learned was making mistakes, how much I learned from it. Okay, so when I was first starting to sell options, and I realized that I kinda oversold and the position went against me. And so I was going to have divided the stock. Well, it was very expensive stack and I was like, oh, no, how's this gonna work out? What's gonna happen on Monday morning, so sweating it all weekend, figuring out how I could take a home back to cover my.. this and that and then just through going through it, then I realized, well, Monday morning, it opened up higher so they came out ahead, you know, they signed it to me, and then I resold it. So it was like, oh, okay, that's how that works. No problem. I know. No, I can handle it. That was my story. Allen: Yeah, yeah. Nobody showed up to my house. You know, want to break my kneecaps or anything? Yeah, a lot of a lot of on that point, there's a lot of things that we are afraid of that "oh, this is going to happen and that's going to happen" and we're not we haven't gone through it yet. And we just have these fears and when we actually go through it, it's like, oh, that's not what I was expecting at all. Mary: Yeah that's not so bad, I can handle that. So exactly, put a lot of that fear to rest in my head. Allen: Okay, so what are the worst things about trading for you? Mary: The worst thing? That there's so many things to choose from, from so many equities you can choose to dabble in and so many different strategies, just trying to find what your niche is. And you know, what works for you and what you're comfortable with. Well, I think finally, after all this time, I've been trading, I kind of have a cadence know, the stocks I like, which ones you get a feel for them, and you get a sense of how they move. And so that was kind of a switch for me, I guess, in the equities tend to trade a lot of high volatility stocks. Went to oil, in my mind, commodities, because I didn't have any frame of reference, except the old movie from the 80s. You know, one minute, you're up half a million and soybeans, the next they breach, your kids aren't going to college presents your... So I was worried that it would be even higher volatility than what I was used to. But it turned out to be the opposite. It wasn't as volatile. So I would make correcting move (inaudible) was gonna be a lot more volatile. And it was, so I've had to adapt in a good way. Allen: Okay. Yeah, most people told me the opposite. They're like, Yeah, this is, it moves a lot more than I'm expecting,  because of the leverage that's involved. Okay. So what was it that that attracted you to oil in the first place? Mary: It was the diversity from the equities, being able, again, like your multiple streams of income, I can do the same thing, but in different avenues. So that if something happens on the stock side, so I have the oil, and it was the tech draw of it. Okay, the benefits on the tech side? Okay. Allen: All right. Do you, now looking forward? Is there anything else that you're going to be trying? Or are you happy with what you got going on right now? Cuz I mean, you know, 6%, on one side, 7% average on the other side per month? That's really good. You know, you could easily turn that into a few million dollars the next few years, just compounding every month, over and over again. Do you think you need something else itching or are you just content? Mary: I just because, I get itchy and you know, there's a bird chirping in my ear about the whole crypto, you know, so, you know, I was looking into different started watching some videos or informational stuff on trading crypto in a Roth IRA. Allen: Really, inside a Roth? Mary: Yeah. So that if it goes big and you get the home run, then, you know, you don't have to get hit so hard with the tax.  Allen: Right, right. Mary: You know and being closer to retirement. Okay. For me, it's a different if you were 20 years or something. Allen: So would you have to have a like a self directed IRA this year, that special broker? Okay, all right. Okay. Mary: So but.. you know.. Allen: Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I have some, you know, I've been buying a little bit for the past several years now, just holding it and be like, Yeah, I'm not gonna trade it because I don't know where it's going up. And when it's going down, just been just invited a little bit here and there and just sticking in leaving it in the wallet and it's just, you know, just going up and up and up. It's crazy time do we live in? You know, like you said, 20 years ago, 14, 18, $20 a commission, you had to call your broker up to place a trade. Now, it's like, you know, press a few buttons 15-20 minutes a day, like you said, I don't know, man, we're living in great times. Mary: There's so many choices. You know, I do listen to some podcasts from CME Group is different ones. And just that team, they're expanding their offerings, you know, getting more into micros and the minis on all the indexes, because that's what people want. And they're starting to get into smaller units on the crypto currency and they don't have options on those futures yet, but you can tell there's enough audience questions about it that there's interest and I'm sure it'll come to be. Allen: Yeah. I think part of it is just they just want to make more money, you know. Mary: Their commissions are getting smaller and smaller. So they have to find ways to diversify as well. Allen: Yeah, the more stuff they have that people can trade, the more fees they can charge on their features. but cool. Okay, well, I appreciate your time. Is there anything else that you want to share with our audience? Mary: No, I appreciate the invitation. And just I would say, if you're new to options, don't get overwhelmed. Because I'm still learning, I pick up books. And, you know, I just, it's a hobbies, interest. And I like reading different books about it. But if you just learn one new thing a day, in no time you'll have it so don't get overwhelmed. And anyone's thinking about going into these programs with Allen's team and just have faith in the process and the program. He and his team are there to support you. It's not some fly by night, answering service, you can get a hold of Allen, you can get a hold of his team. So you know, that kind of put substantiation behind it. So have a faith in Allen's programs and have faith in yourself. Because you can do it, just get past fear and go for it. Allen: Well said, well said, Awesome. And thank you for this so well, the kind words, I really appreciate it. Nothing makes me happier when we have a success story or somebody saying, hey, you know what, I tried that. I just listened to you. And I did it. And it really worked. And I'm like YAY because like my wife. She knows trading, you know, she's she was interested in the beginning. And so I taught her some stuff, but I can't really go home and talk to her about it all day, cuz she'll like, she'll be like, stop. I don't really care. It's fun. It's fun when other people come back, and they like, Yeah, wow, it really worked. And I'm like, All right, Yay, we're actually making a difference in the world. So I appreciate that. Mary: You told me so. And you were right. Allen: Cool, cool. So for our listeners, I just wanted to sum up what Mary shared with us. So she's been doing oil options for about eight months now making consistent returns, she's also trading in a different account stocks, and you're doing some high volatility trades, right? And then you're also doing some low volatility stuff where you're doing like passive style with covered calls naked puts, and.. Mary: I'm mostly doing naked, puts on everything. Allen: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, those have been working amazingly well, I've been doing those as well just gotta make sure that you're protected when the market turns around. Cool. And then it was interesting that you said that, you know, your, your financial adviser told you, hey, you need to stop making money. Because otherwise, can you stop trading please because you're gonna go into higher tax.. Mary: Oh, my goodness. Allen: Like, okay, you know, give me some ideas, you know, how to, like, you know? Like, don't tell me to stop making money. You don't tell me, okay, give us give us a charity or something else? Or give you some ideas? Don't tell me to stop making it. Come on.  Mary: Exactly. Allen: That was interesting. And then I love the fact that she said that, you know, if you wanted to, you could stop working right now. And you could just live off your trading income. And that gives you complete freedom. And that gives you, you know, the choice of, hey, do I want to keep doing this? Do I want to stay at work, or if things deteriorate, you know, who knows what's gonna happen with the future, what's going on? If anything goes different topsy turvy, you have the choice of staying, or leaving or moving, you know, you could go to another country and, and who knows what, anything's possible. So I love that fact that you've been able to get to that point. And, you know, kudos to you, you did the work, you put in the time you learned, you tried it, you practiced it, and then you just followed, you know, you didn't mess with it very much. You followded the rules, and it's working, and you're like, Okay, you know, I can do this. It's good. And it's been wonderful to have a female perspective. I mean, you enlighten me about, you know, having that freedom of not having to be in that bad situation. If you are in one, you know, Mary: Yeah. Or, like, you know, the person on your team who not by choice, but is in a position of having to raise children with, you know, no partner and having to build a come up with that income to do that. Yeah, that's scary to be in that position. Yeah, I mean, for you're gonna do. Allen: Four boys is not cheap, you know. So it's like, she could either be working 50-60 hours and try to pay for everything, because she's got, you know, all four of them are gonna be heading to college soon. So that's not going to be cheap, either. And you can either do that, or, you know, she's working less than 40 hours now, and she's supplementing that with the money that she makes from her trading. So it's amazing. The blessings We get from this stuff. But yeah, you know, kudos to you. Definitely you looked into it, you learned about it and you said hmm. Okay, let me try. Yeah. And that took you down. It took you down a road that you never knew what the outcome would be. But the outcome has been amazing so far. So I'm really proud of you did a great job. Mary: I would not have explored that on my own. You know, if it wasn't for your program, I would have never looked into the oil. Allen: Yeah. Well, we're here for you. We're here for you know, all the other students that we have. We do our best. And again, I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Those of you are listening. If you want to reach out to Mary. She is in our Facebook group. Thank you so much, Mary, and we'll talk to you soon. Mary: You're welcome. Thank you for the invitation. Been a pleasure. Thank you LOVE ALLEN SAMA - OPTION GENIUS AND WANT TO LEARN MORE TRADING TIPS  AND TRICKS? HERE ARE SOME NEXT STEPS... SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PODCAST FREE 9 LESSON COURSE: https://optiongenius.com/  WATCH THIS FREE TRAINING: https://passivetrading.com  JOIN OUR PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP: https://optiongenius.com/alliance  Like our show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps.

Out of the Cold - Week 1Sunday, Dec 5, 2021Pastor Preston SmithWe are starting a brand new series called “Out of the Cold”. Gabriel said to Mary “You are highly favored”.  Comfort keeps us trusting ourselves, but favor keeps us realizing our dependence on God. Pastor Preston reminds us “You have found favor with God!”

I had the pleasure of interviewing Mary Pagano, a longtime technology industry executive. In her two-decade career in the industry, Mary broke gender barriers to rise to be an executive in a heavily male-dominated field.Mary left the technology industry, not due to a lack of success, but because she wanted to achieve greater fulfillment. Today, she is a board advisor and angel investor to several female-founded companies;   HERA, a building project for a smart green city for the future of humanity in honor of women, and FEM FOUNDRY, a new safe & secure social mobile platform for women around the world to unite on all subjects with a focus on female empowerment.In this episode, we talk about Mary's career, the challenges of being a woman in a male-dominated field, the need for female leaders, and her newest project HERA. Mary's life experiences and passion make her inspiring for both men and women. Chapter markers:03:36 Mary Pagano answers how she accomplished what she accomplished05:06 Mary's early career 06:05 The challenges of being a woman in a male-dominated industry08:19 How did Mary respect her boundaries in the corporate world?10:40 The power of saying no11:38 I don't need a man in my life14:27 People want other people to be like them16:17 Mary's career transition from tech to investing19:25 We need more female leaders21:06 The development of Hera City - A city celebrating women26:57 What Susan's project Steel Rose is all about27:35 How being trained in sales influences your worldview32:47 Mary's closing thoughtsNotable quotes:“If I had a family and kids [my career] would have all been dead; there wouldn't have been anyone to take care of them” -Mary“When women mentor other women, and they help and support them, it's actually a gift to themselves because you learn from the giving” -Mary“I never got fired for saying no” -Mary“It always comes back to haunt us when we don't have integrity” -Susan“I've always been looking for adventure; I've always been that way” -Mary“You don't need to be married if you don't want to be” -Susan“It's human nature that whatever works for you or me, we want to try to make everyone else like that, but there's no point in it” -Mary“Culture can kill a company overnight” -Mary“Women need to support each other to move forward” -Mary“Women can't say no without guilt” -Susan“Sales is problem-solving” -Mary“When you're not heard [in a conversation] you cut off” -Mary“The cardinal rule in sales is know your audience” -Susan“If you give service [for others] the universe will open up for you” -MaryConnect with Mary PaganoHERA:  https://www.heracity.orgFEM FOUNDRY:  https://www.fem-foundry.comLinkedin:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/marypagano    HOST:  Susan Hum, The LoveHackerInstagram @thelovehacker Website:  www.steelrosemovement.comFacebook:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/steelrosemovement

Get ready to Sparkle and Shine and live life in full color, Queens!!!  This week, we welcome style blogger and personal stylist Mary Higham, creator of “Glam in Gotham.” Mary's personal aim is to fill each day with whimsy and color, and she unapologetically believes that fashion should make people happy. Well, duh! As Mary says: “Every piece of my clothing makes a statement towards a little piece of my personality - I wear my heart on my sleeve (sometimes literally)!” Mary's blog and Instagram page are saturated in her trademark fluff and sequins – as well as her beloved headbands – where she shares her perspective on her new life in NYC, tips and tricks for vintage finds, and loves to promote her favorite fashion accessories and styles. Nolan brings us the goods this week and introduces us to Mary as only Nolan can: recounting a story about the first time he hung out with Mary at a Halloween party, where he got super trashed and had a great time… well, you can imagine. But back to Mary: we discuss her first career as an event consultant specializing in meetings, conferences and trade shows. She then started blogging, moved to NYC – LITERALLY moving into a new apartment the day before the pandemic shut down the City - and decided to focus on her love of fashion when the world's planning and live events actually died in 2020. We L.O.L about personal shopping gigs, sample sales, thrifting, blogging, curating your own personal style, our love for NYC, and even why there is a lot of online discussion about the state of her husband's pant-wearing status on most days. Some things just have to be seen or heard, so take a listen.  Seriously though, Mary shares how she supports up-and-coming brands by promoting and elevating the designers and products she loves. She then combines her professional experience as an event planner to connect brands and consumers. We are so inspired by Mary's business insights and career path: “You can't fit a career in a box. Nobody's life fits into a perfect box. It is not always in a straight line. There is no clear path. Carve out what you love.” Join us for a wonderful adventure full of rainbows and unicorns, career journeys and the love of fashion! And of course, we include all the usual swear words and things that totally annoy us along the way.  In This Episode: [2:11] NOLAN: It's been such a long year. So I mean, you wear so many hats. So, you're an event consultant. You're a stylist. You're a personal shopper. A color and style enthusiast, because it brings you joy. You're like also like me, you're a sample sale queen.  [3:01] HOLLY: Mary, I just want to say I'm looking at you right now. I've only seen your picture. You're completely Gorg! Love your headband. She's got on this beaded headband and, I mean, super colorful rainbow dress. You look amazing! [5:07] MARY:  So, I'm actually adopted and I grew up on the Jersey Shore as an Asian kid with white parents - grew up on the Irish Catholic Riviera of America on the Jersey Shore. [8:04] MARY: It's not easy to follow your passion. I attended panels where brand designers and CEOs are sitting there, talking about how, you know, “One day I just decided I wanted to create my own line. So I cold called a lot of people and now look at how successful I am.” And I'm like, “That's not true. You started your career as an intern, you started as a stylist assistant.” [11:28] MARY: I used to travel all over the world. So, I could be in any city or any country, like who even knows. But the most popular thing I ever asked about on my Instagram Stories was: do you want to know if my husband is wearing pants or not? [17:43] HOLLY: And what is your shtick? Are you “fashion at your age”? Are you “fashion for a certain size?” Tell me what your shtick is… you believe in color, or what is your unique perspective about why your outfits are important. [23:27] MARY: You know, look, if we really want to break it down in a nutshell, what I believe I can do to help other women is: I think it's really important to embrace yourself. I'm not going to tell every woman that she needs to be wearing color. You know what, if you like black, and it is an entirely black ensemble, if you feel that's you, and that's what makes you happy? Then you do that. [28:15] MARY:  There was almost an entire month where Nate was like “Come on, just walk the dogs with me” I was like, okay, so I go out, and of course, I put on sequins and a big-ass bow on my head, and I was like, we're gonna walk the dogs! So we go downstairs and my doorman was like “Holy Shit, Mary! Oh my god, you're alive. We had a pool going, we really thought your husband had murdered you know, you for weeks.” [52:02] MARY:  I think I would say it's a fashion crime to just follow trends and to wear it because like, oh, pink is the new, you know, what is it? Orange is the new pink? It's the new red?  [61:00] NOLAN: I proceeded to get blackout. Oh, and then we had Korean barbecue afterwards. It was so good.  Key Takeaways: Nolan has fabulous fashion friends who make amazing podcast guests Mary Higham followed her head and her heart to combine careers without following the rules, or the norms, or what everyone says is the correct path to success. Pandemic got you down? Pivot to expand your career opportunities and you just might find a way to do more than your day job. But you still gotta pay the bills. There are highs and lows and depression, and then there are people who are fake about what it means to be successful.  You be you. Your personal style, your path to happiness, your success and failures – no one can tell you how to be you, or how to be happy. People want people. We want live fashion shows again. We want to touch and feel and taste fabric. We want to see the good, the bad and the beautiful at live fashion shows. Some things just cannot be digital.  Find people, brands, products and ideas that you love. Follow them, lift them up, promote them, be a part of their community. Collaboration is the new black.  Websites and Links:   Glam in Gotham website:  https://www.glamingotham.com/ Glam in Gotham Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/glam.in.gotham/   Lele Sadoughi Headbands: https://www.lelesadoughi.com/ Loren Hope Jewelry: https://www.lorenhope.com Stony Clover Lane: https://www.stoneycloverlane.com Quotes: “I like to think that fashion should make people happy. And the fashion is uniquely personal to you. I am never gonna tell someone what they have to wear.” – Mary Higham “It's shot girl summer: vaxxed, waxed and ready to relax." – Mary Higham “So, I'm actually adopted and I grew up on the Jersey Shore, an Asian kid with white parents who grew up on the Irish Catholic Riviera of America on the Jersey Shore.” – Mary Higham “Listen, no one is upset that you're Asian, Jewish AND Italian. Okay? Because you grew up on the Jersey Shore. It's all good that you're Jewish, that you're more Jewish than most people.” – Holly Katz “And I'm never gonna not love headbands. I've loved headband since I was like six years old. So I don't care. I could be 18, I could be 45, still gonna be wearing a sparkly headband.” – Mary Higham “You don't need a million followers to have any degree of influence.” – Mary Higham

Mary: "You know that scene in Empire when they lower that helmet onto Darth Vader's head? Do you think that is how Sandy puts his hair on in the morning? Ted: "You just insulted someone I hate by referencing something that I love. Damn, you just got even hotter." This week I am joined by Chris and Aaron to discuss Mary the Paralegal! We talk all about moments when we have used jealousy as a weapon, how uncomfortable that award show must have been, and an extraordinary story from Chris that you won't want to miss! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Learn how to get more out of Christmas through the gift of anticipation. As we appreciate what God has already done for us, we can trust him for our future. We can anticipate the good things he was in store for us, like a child waiting to open their presents on Christmas. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 82. Today is the third of our December series on Relationships at Christmas. We’re coming off the 3rd Sunday of Advent, which occurred just a few days ago. This 3rd Sunday traditionally focuses on Joy. The joy of Christmas. Did you know that you can experience the joy of every Christmas 3 times? You really can! Hang around and listen, as I explain. The three joys of Christmas The first joy found in each Christmas is anticipating it, looking forward to Christmas and imagining what it will be like. Then there’s the joy of Christmas Day; and all that happens during those 24 hours. That’s the 2nd joy. Lastly, there’s the joy of remembering afterward what happened on Christmas. It’s reflecting on the events of our Christmas and how what happened touched us in some way. For Today, We’ll Focus on Just the First Joy of Christmas, the Christmas Gift of Anticipation The first joy: Anticipation of Christmas It starts with Mary, the mother of Jesus that we read about in the Gospel of Luke in the Bible. We talked a bit about Mary in last week’s episode, #80, but to review she was a teenager from the little village of Nazareth. One day the Angel Gabriel, a messenger from God, visits Mary. He then tells Mary 3 things that will happen to her in the next few months. She will:  1) conceive a child even though she’s a virgin, 2) give birth to a son, 3)name him Jesus (Luke 1:31) After this, Gabriel tells Mary 5 things about her yet-to-be-born son, Jesus, and the impact he will have on the world (Luke 1:32) He will very great He will be called the Son of the Most High The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David He will reign over Israel, and finally His kingdom will never end Mary hurries off to share the good news Soon after Mary gets this news from God, she hurries off to her elderly relative, Elizabeth. Shortly after her arrival at Elizabeth’s house, Mary shares her joy with Elizabeth what God told her through Gabriel. You can feel the joy in her words as she anticipates what God is going to do through her son, who is actually His son! Mary praises God for this incredible earth-shattering historic event that is about to happen, and how God chose to get the ball rolling by using her, a nondescript teenage girl of humble origins from the podunk little village of Nazareth. What a wonderful Christmas gift of anticipation Mary received from God! Mary anticipates her soon-to-be-elevated status, not because of anything she did, but only because of what God chooses to do with this humble teenage girl. She is in awe of being the recipient of such a great blessing. This is a beautiful and encouraging relationship story between lowly Mary and the God of the universe. If God will bless someone like Mary, maybe he will bless me too Mary’s Christmas gift of anticipation is based on the character of God and what he did for many generations before hers Read Luke 1: 46-56, The Magnificat: Mary’s Song of Praise. She praises God in response to Elizabeth who tells her will be called “blessed” Shows mercy from generation to all who fear him Has done tremendous things, like scattering the proud and haughty Brought princes down from their thrones Exalted the humble Filled the hungry with good things Sent the rich away with empty hands Helped his servant Israel Has remembered to be merciful Made promises to our ancestors, to Abraham and his children forever Because Mary calls to mind what God has done in the past for her ancestors, she can trust God and anticipate more of his goodness in moving forward in her life, and in the life of her people. And what joy there is in this Christmas gift of anticipation of what Jesus is going to do next. Mary set the stage for the rest of us in showing that the real joy of Christmas is found in a relationship with Jesus. What about you? Where are you finding joy this Christmas? Is there anything you can remember that God has done for you in the past, that makes it easier for you to anticipate the good things he will do in the future? If you forget everything else, here’s the one thing I hope you remember from today’s episode. To best experience the Christmas gift of anticipation of what is to come. we need to reflect on what has already come. What God has already done in our lives that speak to his character and gives us confidence to trust him in what is yet to come. Here’s what we can all do in response to today’s program What can you anticipate about your relationship with Jesus, based on what he is doing now in your life, and what he did in the past? If you can’t point to many things Jesus has done for you, it’s only because you don’t know him well enough…yet. It’s never too late to start getting to know him. Why not start today? Do what Mary did in Luke 1:38, she just believed. Not in an “I hope so manner”. but rather in affirmation of what God was telling her through the angel Gabriel. Elizabeth tells Mary You are to be called blessed because you believed that the Lord would do what he said. (Luke 1:45) As always, another thing you could do is let me and your fellow listeners know what resonated with you about today’s episode. The easiest way is to put your thoughts in an email and send them to me, john@caringforothers.org. Or you can share your thoughts in the “Leave a Reply” box at the bottom of the show notes. Closing In closing I hope you will savor the joy found in experiencing Christmas in 3 ways this year, starting with the Christmas Gift of Anticipation of what is to come. And just like Mary, I hope your Christmas joy is based on your relationship with Jesus. Because after all, You Were Made for This. If finding more joy during the Christmas season interests you, you might want to listen to episode 46 from last year, Where Joy to the World is Found. Our relationship quote of the week If you come at four in the afternoon, I'll begin to be happy by three. ~ Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince That’s all for today. See you next week. Goodbye for now. You Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry. We depend upon the generosity of donors to pay our bills.  If you'd like to support what we do with a secure tax-deductible donation, please click here. We'd be so grateful if you did.

Welcome to the Recruitment Hackers podcast, a show about innovation, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry brought to you by Talkpush the leading recruitment automation platform.Max: Hello, and welcome back to  the recruitment hackers podcast. I'm your host Max. And today I'm honored and pleased to welcome on the show Miss Mary Meston from Concentrix. Mary, welcome to the show. Mary: Thank you, Max. Thanks for inviting me. I'm happy to be here. Max: Great to have you. So Mary is the VP for talent management at Concentrix. Concentrix is currently part of the Synnex group, but they're separating at the moment. I hope I'm not divulging any confidential information. Mary: No, you're not. It is public knowledge and we've reported out, and the board recently approved that. So we're still projecting we're about a month out from spinning out and being on our own and being our own entity. And we are gonna miss Synnex. We're still very, very close, but we're all very excited. Max: And you were together for a couple of years only?Mary: No, Synnex actually, if you look at where Concentrix came from, it's been out for 16 years. It was a small little group. Concentrix has grown by acquisition. Substantially. And now we are substantially a large player in the industry, quite a large player, and absolutely would like to be on our own. And it just makes business sense. You know?Max: Well, It is indeed a huge company. I am today working with some of your entities, but I understand Concentrix globally is, well, over 200,000 headcount, maybe 300,000, maybe more. Mary: We're North of 250,000 right now. And with you helping us there in, certain divisions could be 260 for all I know right now. Max: Yeah. It changes every day. And then certainly around this time of year there is always a big ramp up before the Christmas holiday, lots of hiring going on. But you're not in those trenches anymore Mary, I think that our audience will get something a little bit different today. Mary is working more on the executive development and talent management at the executive level at the moment. Well, tell us a little bit more about your role in Concentrix. Mary: I'd love to thank you. Yes. I've been in the recruitment trenches. It was called recruitment then, and now it's talent acquisition. So that ages me quite a bit. Max: You were saying head hunting before. Mary: I know head hunting. I think about that now it's like, so politically not correct. Right?Max:  It used to be fun. We used to take our rifles and go out and hunt for heads. Mary: That's a really aggressive talent acquisition strategy, right? Yeah, I progressed through all of the focuses in HR. I mean, I started as a benefits clerk, a payroll clerk, actually moved into recruiting and helped establish a number of firms many moons ago. Some of the first, software development firms and actually H1B hiring and really focusing on that. I worked in California, and progressed through all the phases and all the functions in HR and I really love the fact that I've been able to bring all that together and really we're focused now with our executive set. Really working on optimizing our talent because as we all know how difficult it is to find that right person, let's talk about time, process, costs, all of that. Once you have them, you don't want to lose them. Right? And it's really important to continue to develop them. Not only helps employee engagement, but that helps move a company forward. Right? If you can grow all those quote unquote human assets, it helps the company move forward. And that's one of the levers in our innovation. Is grow your talent!Max: It can be so heartbreaking as a business owner when you lose a top talent. And I'm sure it's heartbreaking even if you're not the business owner, the heads-up, you've got somebody who you've invested so much time that leaves, you know, I'm now in my forties, but 20 years ago, I remember thinking my allegiance is to my career and I need to keep moving. Every two, three years, go get another job, expose myself to something new and keep growing. And I think studies have been made that that's one way to optimize for salary growth, especially at the early stages of your career. But now I have a bit of a different perspective where I think, you know, life is too short to be sending out resumes every two years. What do you think about sort of job mobility for people as they get to maybe the middle of their career or their golden years? Mary: Hopefully the middle isn't the golden years now, because come on the new 40 is 60, so let's move the scale up. Yeah, I think about it very much. You have spoken about the time in one's career and what the best strategy is, and it is very true. I did this one in my younger days, to jump every two to three years. Some of it, I lived in the Silicon Valley and worked in the Silicon Valley during the  dot com days. And if your company wasn't purchased or purchasing someone every two years, you know, that provided that career growth, that career jump. And that was really a strategy. I too am a believer. Mid-career when you kind of top out and we have a really solid set of expertise, then it's great to find a place where you can grow and grow with the company and grow that expertise with the company. And not necessarily just look for the next, you know, 5% increase. There's much more of a different strategy. And then when I talk with people early in their careers, they're in a learning stage. So you're learning, growing, get what I can, let's move on. If I'm not getting the growth, I'm going to jump! Then there is the kind of mid career people. I call it the listening stage. As where you start listening to yourself, as well as listening to those you work with. So it's the listening leader approach. It's key to being a really successful leader. Being able to hear others be collaborative and to be very self-aware. And then there's the capstone of your career. I call it the legacy and that's what I work with really senior executives, not necessarily just in age, but in career. Where they're like, I want to leave something behind. What does that look like? And in working with senior executives that are at that stage, and it's not necessarily an age issue, but it is more about what they feel they've accomplished. That's where it's really a great time to work with senior executives to that's where they're, I want to leave an innovation. I want to change something up. I want to make a difference, you know, and that's, it's a great place to, at least for me to spend with these senior leaders, because there's, that's where some of the most influential, even simple decisions are made. Max: That legacy translates. I often imagine an ideology, like a vision that they want to materialize.Mary: Absolutely. You're in a longer time to learn your skill set and you've performed and you know what you do. What do I want to leave that's beyond me? Being an ideology, an impact, and innovation. I know particularly, In the space we're working with now and with the BPO industry. I mean, because we are such large groups, what we do impact so many more, it's kind of that ripple effect. So it's very important to be very aware of the choices. And we have a number of senior leaders that are very into that legacy space about, you know, we are a community, as we treat our employees, they impact the world.So it's a very significant place to play. And you're very conscious of your choices, particularly, here in the States, you know, with the diversity, equity and inclusion, or I guess globally as well. And the unrest that's been going on, there's a huge, renewed focus on the importance of the inclusions of all. And it's a matter of community. And that's a very interesting space to be particularly with our leadership that is very focused on that. Max: Yeah. I've heard that. I had somebody on the show recently that was telling me about PepsiCo and how do you connect the people at PepsiCo with a sense of mission and purpose? And I made one of my nasty comments about, you know, how do you get excited about selling sugary drinks? And I was, I was told that for them, the mission was more about the people, about the people at PepsiCo and growing the business and that, you know, it has nothing to do with the amount of sugar inside of the drinks, that it gets them excited.And so you've got to find that environment where you're going to carry that ideology or ideology maybe is a two way radio term, or just a set of principles and beliefs that you can put into the world. And I imagine that sometimes you've got people who will get promoted because they're super performers. And maybe they're not at that stage yet. Right? They don't, they're not thinking legacy. They're just thinking about performance and you know, where am I going to get my next raise? Perhaps you, can you suss them out immediately? Mary: Well, you can find them. I mean, in some of that it's, where they're at in their career? What they're seeking?  I find that in people when they're just trying to get into the listening stage. I call it the learning stage when you're learning your function and you're becoming known and branded. It's the me stage, and the listening stage shifts to the we stage. And that's often, typically middle management-ish, depending on the job titles, but that's where you have to become responsible for the we, not the me. And some make that shift better than others. Some never tear the peer principle of topping out. When someone just can't get that next rung on the ladder. And what do you want to be? There's the me and we, there's something in there. Max: Yeah. It's sad when I hear you. I hear you talking about children development stages, almost. Mary: Well, you know, we are all children at heart aren't we, it's just our bodies don't look at as we age. And, you know, development is in stages. It's developmental stages, right? And we can talk about people we know, or public figures that get trapped in adolescence. Let's talk about political climate, right? Max: I watch a lot of comedy online. So I love watching those people who never grow up. And, I think they're very entertaining. So I think, yeah, it's precious to preserve that child inside. But, I'm here wearing a suit and a jacket and trying to look the part for my job. Mary: You're doing a good job.Max: Thank you, Mary. I know I need a haircut, but don't tell me about dressing for success. Is that some part of your job in talent management or is that something that people come to with questions?Mary: Well, that's a really softer side of the corporate world, but we did have a chat about how important it is and how different and how much it's changing now with this world of work at home, or the zoom land, or COVID land, or Corona land, or whatever we want to call it. The next normal, you know, the having to dress to look the part is less and less important.And I've seen it. I've been around for several decades now where you look the part to be assumed you could do it. And now I really work with folks about being who you are, be authentic. I mean, within the appropriate, you know, aspects and parameters, but just dressing the part rarely at senior, mid- senior and senior levels that doesn't.Max:  It doesn't matter anymore! Mary: It doesn't. Think of some of the names out there and, you know, Steve Jobs was known for his look. We've got the Elon Musk look, I mean, think of these people and they're not necessarily the suit and ties, are they? Max: Well, I mean, they have a brand and we can talk about the authenticity and the brands. The way Steve Jobs dressed was part of his brand. It was, you know, I'm so passionate about finding the right design that I'm not going to take off my turtleneck. I don't know what message that actually sends. It's like, it doesn't matter how I dress as long as I've built nice pones, I guess. Mary: Well, I understood while reading some of his stuff that he wanted to reduce the cognitive load about having to think about what he's going to wear. So he can put all that energy into the design. Max: That sounds like such bullshit. Really the cognitive load of how much... I mean, if you're a guy put on a shirt and a suit you're done! Mary: Maybe I'm speaking from a female perspective or more of you, my generation, where you had to worry about if everything matched, right? And you can't have the same top within two, every two weeks.Max: My wife at home, you know, before she goes to the office, she asks me, even though I have no clue, what's  to tell her. But you know, I figured it's better to have an opinion than no opinion. So I do, I do comments. Mary: And you're still standing. So you didn't say you have a good opinion. Max: You're saying it looks wonderful every time, then it doesn't sound correct. You have to mix in a little bit of criticism. I'm sure in your practice as well, the most exemplary leaders also expect you to push back a little bit and criticize.Mary: Absolutely. I mean, when I engage with executives, one of our initial conversations it's about, you know, we set the parameters of our relationship. And as I'm not your best friend, I'm not your yes man or woman. I am here to help you achieve what you want to achieve. And I'll be your sounding board. I'll be your mirror. I'll be your coach. And some days I might actually be the person that's pushing you. So I expect some resistance or it's not working. And just to prep them ahead. And, you know, you can tell those that really engage and want to, and those that are just kind of glad-handing, and just going along for the long cause they don't want to step in something. Max: I mean, and there's, I suppose, an awkwardness with the fact that you are an employee of Concentrix and therefore, you know, it's not like you're a psychologist, right? There's no obligation to keep everything secret from you.Mary: Interesting. You bring up a really important point in the role that I'm doing. And there have been some discussions about, you know, keep someone external to the firm or bring them in. And it can go either way. In particular, I'm very fortunate. I get to report directly to the CEO and our parameters are that I share nothing that is of confidence. If someone needs to share something with you or you with them, I will coach the two of you to speak. So we have some really clear boundaries, which is essential for this to work. Max: Yeah, absolutely. But nobody's going to come and tell you, I want to kill the CEO. Mary: Well, I would hope not because, one, that's illegal! It's really scary. That's a reportable event. My HR is going to come all out. Max: No, I mean, you're dealing with people who are a little bit more mature, than to express things this way. I'm sure they'd find a better way to. But some advice from our listeners, some of which are not, at the executive level, you know, who want to bring the vision of who they want to become to live. At which point in your career is a good suit to bring in a coach? Let's say, you know, you're starting out. You're a talent acquisition professional, and you want to, I don't know, end up VP of HR, should you get a coach? What kind of coach? Where do you start? Mary: That is a really timely question. Thank you. Because recently there's a gentleman within our larger company. He is starting on the path, he's in talent acquisition, and his goal is to be VP of HR. One of our values is to be bold. And he just reached out to me. He says, you don't know me, but I would love to have a mentor. I would want to be you someday. Will you talk to me? Max: Nice. Mary: So when do you start? Whenever you have that question, when something's telling you to do it, you need to answer that whatever the answer is. And many people go, well, I don't need a coach, or what is a coach? Coaching is different from therapy, you know, I'm not licensed to do that. And in therapies dealing generally with the past, I like to frame coaching as dealing in the present and moving you to the right action, whatever that is, depending on what path you choose. And so when to get a coach? Whenever you feel that in the key things you are feeling stuck. I feel there's more, I know I'm not doing something quite right. Something's unsettled. And fourth is, and hopefully it doesn't happen to you, but if some, you get feedback that certain XYZ performance manners behavior isn't working for you, I mean  that's kind of a key when you can reach out to them.Max: Okay, sweet. I had a different idea because you're describing someone who is ambitious, but has problems they want to solve and they want to address. I thought that you have to be, you know, a super positive, optimistic person. Everything is going right. And then you've got all this space and now like, you know what, I want to go even higher and I'm going to go hire a coach because my life is in order, but I want to reach one more.Mary: You know, it can be both of those. It's and again, it's about goal-driven. So if people look at my credentials, I'm certified to do some curriculums called high-performance coaching. And in that space, if that's how we frame that engagement, it is about just having more consistency, higher performance at a consistent level.Yeah, my life's awesome, but I want it to be better. Most often, even those that think they have everything dialed in. There's something amiss. I mean, life is real. We're real people. Not every day is perfect. Not every conversation's perfect. Not every choice is perfect. So how do you manage that? So you can do coaching at that stage too.Max: Certainly. Mary: Coaching is not necessarily remediation. Max: Talent acquisition is one area where it's impossible to reach perfection. You're talking about, yeah, areas for improvement and it is  impossible to have a perfect track record of work movements. I think I can say that without… I mean if somebody can prove me wrong, I'd love to meet them.You know, I've never made a bad hire. I've never heard anybody say that. Although that would be, you know, if that person exists, I would love to interview them for the show.Mary: Yes. I would like to meet them as well. Either way, we're saying in talent acquisition, there's no perfection. And I was going to ask you, what do you scope is perfection? And you're saying a bad hire. So we could talk about what's a bad hire. There's different ways of saying that, you know, they didn't work out. They didn't fit in. They didn't succeed. They didn't bring in the numbers, whatever that is. But, I don't think there is perfection in anything. Other than a hole in one in golf. Is that perfect? Max: Yeah. And you know, even if you do make a good hire, you're going to always find there is probably a better hire out there. I mean, it's hard to measure those things, but I think, retention is a good metric and the beacon side to the performance of the hire. Of course, that's great as well. When you're doing more high volume, the cost per hire is a good metric. But having, you know, with your long experience in TA and and HR, I'm sure you've been exposed to regrets and regretful hires. I'd like to ask you if there's a hire that comes back to mind, and of course I don't want the name, job title or even a company name, but if she could go back to that moment where you hired this person and didn't work out. What can our audience learn from your mistake?Mary: Okay. One definitely comes to mind for me and I will work my best to cloak the identity. If you notice me already kind of shifting here, but I'm going to kind of share the blame in a weird way. So, VP of HR in a startup, we were hiring a key sales person and through my process, I was like, this is a no go. And it wasn't what they could do. It was going to be about their fit, much more cultural fit. Right? And I was a solid no, senior team members were a solid yes, because they were looking at what he could do and has done for others. And I'm like, this is going to destroy the firm. Anyway, he was brought on and our numbers popped for a short while. And then, unfortunately he kind of crossed some boundaries with people, as well as markets. And he left the firm in a worse state than when he started with us. Yeah. So it was a long, hard lesson in one trusting your gut to look at not just what they can do but also fit. And taking a longer view of what is success and what your mission is. Max: I have a lot of names that come to mind where I know the same description and speech would have been easily applicable to this situation. Do not hire based on resume, do not hire based on track record because somebody who's done it before somewhere else does not mean they're going to be able to replicate it or that they even want to do it in the new place, you know, maybe they're a different person.They're not interested in doing the same type of work. And, it's just not going to relate. So a track record is not enough. You have to have something else. Mary: Yeah, that that is very insightfully put because it's very true. I mean, while we do need some, I know you can do this or you have the history of this, it's really about, you have to meet that person in the here and now. And it's pretty safe to say that in very rare cases, one's performance really fits in with all else that's going on in the context of the company. Right? Place, time, people. So just because they did it once doesn't mean you're going to replicate it. Because that would be almost kind of scientific and cloning, right?Max: Yeah. We're not robots just yet. Mary: Not yet but I hear they're working on it. Max: Yeah. So we are. And to wrap up our discussion, Mary, and to put it in the 2020 context. This year has been testing for a lot of people and for organizations, I believe Concentrix has done huge progress in transitioning to work from home, and work from anywhere perhaps. Can you share with us, some success stories from your executive team on how that transition was handled? And, you know, what hidden talents this challenging year may have, you know, put before and revealed in your team?Mary:  Yeah. Awesome. That is a great way to kind of wrap this because I think this year, and I think everyone can attest to this. This year has been one of the most difficult for any business you're in. I mean, global pandemic and then in certain businesses it's been a bigger issue. We are global, obviously, we have 250,000 people, so that's a big footprint to manage.Max: A quarter million!Mary: Yeah, quarter million is kind of scary. Right? So when you think about it, we went from an industry where it was primarily cubicle work in an office, to work from home almost overnight. Our senior team, I have to say, they worked incredibly well together to get very clear. We knew what the mission was, get everybody working from home as quickly as you can for our clients and for our people, while staying safe. Because of such a strong culture built we have and buy into the culture, the team worked incredibly well, and I can't share data, but quote - unquote, almost overnight, made that happen. Right? Just imagine what that takes. Here we are, eight months after COVID really kind of started. Having the vast majority of the group still working from home where possible. Actually, and I think this industry I'm speaking up for, I don't know for a fact, seeing this I think this industry may take a look at work from home. It's going to become more popular. Or more the manner. I don't know if it'll ever be the only way, but I think that just shows we could remain in business and we didn't have to have everyone contained in a cubicle or in an office. And I wanna, you know, think and even express, you know, gratitude from so many, you know, 250,000 of us, to the senior executives who are pulling together so quickly.And really being clear on that purpose. it's amazing when you're someone who is clear on a purpose, and you have a group also clear on that purpose, you can move mountains, right? Or you can actually move a hundred thousands of computers like that. Max: Yeah. It was beautiful to see what happened to the industry this year. It was difficult of course, for some people, we've seen divorce rates go up, suicides rates, alcohol consumption and other indicators that show that those stressors on the market have been felt. with the commuting time being reduced to zero, however, we can look at it as, perhaps the day is less and less crowded with waste. Maybe it's a little bit more purposeful. Is that how your executive team is experiencing it? Because I know at the management level, managing people remotely takes probably even more time than doing it in the office where you can have everybody in a room. So are they feeling, are they feeling the weights of those extra hours or they're enjoying the freedom from commute? Where's the balance? Mary: Where's the balance? Well it's an interesting balance. The vast majority, because we are global, a lot of what we did was, you know, via telecommunications. It wasn't necessarily as in person. But for those that have the in-person experiences initially was very difficult, a lot of us miss and who doesn't miss that contact, that said, people are finding and it's going on two different camps here.They're actually working more because they're in their home. You know, you don't have to get up, commute, change. All that logistical stuff has gone. So you just fill your work into that space. So whereas we talk about setting boundaries, right? Others have actually found, instead of working in that space, that they're getting really good about boundaries and really finding that they're more of themselves, both in work and home. So I've had others go the other way. It wasn't necessarily divorce and suicide, but more family time, more presence. I'm not on the road. So I wouldn't say it's one or the other. It really just depends on individual cases. I think we can speak to this around any firm or anyone. I mean, this year has been loaded with work, add COVID as a stressor, and then add business as a stressor, add personal schooling. And if you look at all those stressors, it's a stressful time for anyone wherever you're at. And so that is going to impact the greater population. Max: Well, I'm, I'm taking a lot of positives from your answer, where people have been spending more time at home. And being able to put in more hours and, you know, and so important work as well. And so obviously top executives will respond to challenges with a good level of resiliency. And, it sounds like they have, and they've done a good job of transitioning the company at a scale that nobody could have imagined.Thank you for sharing those stories, Mary. I wish you and your team much success in 2021. And, thank you for coming to the show. Mary: Well, thank you, Max. Awesome. Here's to everyone's good 2021.That was Mary Meston VP of talent management at Concentrix reminding us to create space. That's what she does for the executives at Concentrix and what she reminds us to do for ourselves. I enjoyed it as I hope you did as well. If you did, please follow us, please follow the recruitment hackers podcast.And if you'd like to be on the show or know somebody who I should interview. Remember to reach out on talkpush.com I'm always looking for more interesting people to talk to. Thank you.

Seth: Moving on to question number two. I want to ask Mary because Mary is an ESL teacher she's has a lot of experience in this. Mary, why do many people think English learning is a hard process? Mary: Okay, that is a super great question, and I don't exactly know maybe the exact reason why, but I can tell you what my students have told me. Um, the first is that English has a really huge vocabulary. Yeah, like there are so many words in the English language on the words that I borrowed from other languages. But just the world is changing so fast around us that every year hundreds of words get added to our dictionaries into our vocabulary just as the world changes around us. So that's hard. It's hard to keep up on because not a lot of languages do that a huge part of world culture is based on Western culture. You know a lot of the technology. Um, we just for some reason get to be the language that get shared a lot, so that gets really tricky. The other reason is that we have some complicated forms of grammar that don't always follow exact rules like, um, the grammar that you might find. For example, in the romance languages. It's really predictable. It's easy to conjugate verbs. It's easy to know how things work within that language, like the building blocks are really similar. But English doesn't always follow those rules. And so that could be really hard for ESL students to know um, which rules apply where, you know, making something past tense, putting something in a progressive tense, putting things in a subjective tense. Those are really, really hard for people. Seth: Mary, can I just interject here that, as an English native English speaker, I feel like even for me, it's hard to know when the use or conjugate certain verbs in a certain way? Mary: Yeah, I believe that. But I would say that you do a lot more than you probably realize, because instead of thinking exactly about the grammar as you're speaking, it's just something that you naturally do. Even though you might not be able to explain what tense you're using or why you've conjugated a verb that way. Seth: Well, that makes sense. Mary: you know, and then the last thing that can make things really hard is Phrasal Verbs. So a phrasal verb is when we have, um, a verb and then like a proposition. Okay, so we might say to back up. Okay. Seth: All right. Mary: And we might say you need to back up the car or I need to back up this document or I'll be back up in a minute and those can have three different meanings, But they're all the same phrasal verb. And so you know where we have verbs that can mean 10 different things, right? Seth: Right. Mary: And, for example, the verb to run can mean like to actually run like you're running a race. It can mean when you leave the water on, so to run water, like when you turn on the water, it can mean like your nose if you're congested, run is running. There could be like your computer when it's turned on and using a certain program that we might say we run a program or if you're feeling sick and you have a fever, will say, um, she's running a fever. I mean, no other language uses verbs that way. And so for someone who's not a native English speaker, that's really hard for them. They don't learn. They don't get to that level of English for a long time unless they're really dedicated and diligent. So I would just say like when I was teaching English, my students would say: "Teacher, why do we do it this way?" And sometimes I just have to say it's just an exception to the rule, like I don't have a good reason why we do that. It's just in exception. It's just the way that the language has evolved in the way that we use it. And that can be really hard for students. Seth: Thank you, Mary. That's three really hard things that you explain. I mean, we're always adopting new words. We have so many exceptions to the rule, and we have phrasal verbs, which you explained perfectly. Thank you! Mary: You're welcome.

"Afrobeat songs are hot, they are for parties, for jumps" - About music here and about music there Hosts: Ali Ernest https://www.instagram.com/ba_ba.ali Ogomo Atambire https://www.instagram.com/darth.lightsoup Nikita Vologzhanin https://www.instagram.com/nik_vologzhanin Music: Mubert https://mubert.com/ Playlists: Hiplife 1.Sarkodie Ofeetsor ft Prince Bright 2. Sarkodie...Lucky ft Rudeboy 3.Sarkodie...Revenge of the Spartans Raggae Beats 1. Duan Stephenson...August Town 2. Gramps Morgan....Wash the tears 3. Lucky Dune.....Together as one 4. Morgan Heritage..... A man is still a man 5. Lucky Dube.....Mama 6. Lucky Dube.... Mirror Mirror African Beats 1. Samini Celebration ft Shata wala 2. Patoranking....Suh Different 3. Diamond Platnums...Mary You ft Ne-yo 3. Samini....My own Recorded with support from the Venture Media podcast studio and accelerator https://www.instagram.com/venture_cast

Show Notes Hello everyone and welcome to episode 45, where today we look at 7 relationship lessons found in the greatest Christmas movie ever made. I never, ever, in a hundred million years, ever want to be known for exaggeration and hyperbole. So it’s going to be a challenge for me to reign myself in when talking about the wonders found in It’s a Wonderful Life!, that 1947 Christmas movie classic staring Jimmy Stewart and Donna Reed. The thing I like about the movie is that while it’s become a holiday tradition for people to watch, it’s more than just one of those Christmas feel good movies. There’s so much relational, and spiritual wisdom, found in this film that’s easy to miss because it’s become so familiar to many of us. So today I’m suggesting that during this Christmas season, when you watch It’s a Wonderful Life! you look at through the lens of relationships. It will be a much richer experience for you, and the people you watch it with.Let me first remind you of the plot of the movie. The main character, George Bailey, played by Jimmy Stewart, grows up in Bedford Falls prior to WWII. From the time he was young, George was a very popular, engaging person, well-liked by everyone. George had big dreams for himself - to live a life larger than could be lived in a place like Bedford Falls. He talked often about his dream of traveling to far away places where he would work as an engineer to build big things like skyscrapers and bridges. George grew up in a loving family where his father and uncle ran the Bailey Brothers Building and Loan, a savings institution in competition with the bank in town owned by the antagonist in the movie, Henry Potter. “Old man Potter” as he was called. George’s father, Peter Bailey died suddenly and George puts his plans to go to college on hold to run the savings & loan, while his younger brother Harry goes off to college. The plan was that once Harry graduated from college, he would take over the Building & Loan, so George could leave Bedford Falls to pursue an education and his dreams But things didn’t turn out as planned. Harry returns from college, not just with a diploma, but also with a wife and a job out of town with his father-in-law. All this leaves George with the responsibility of running the Building & Loan, causing him to feel all the more trapped, which is a major theme of the movie. On Christmas Eve, Uncle Billy misplaces $8,000 right as a bank examiner shows up for an audit. If the money isn’t found, it will mean bankruptcy, scandal, and jail time for George. He’s beside himself with fear, and it brings out the worst in him. The rest of the film is about how George goes about dealing with this problem, and how others deal with George. If ever there was a movie about relationships, this would be it. Here are 7 relationship lessons I learned from this movie. I’ll have a list of them in the bottom of the show notes for this episode. 1. Before is often better than now Great things happened before we were born. The film came out in 1947, before I was born, and before almost all of you were born. It was not well received by the contemporary culture of its day. It took years for it to become a Christmas classic. Important things in our culture take time to be appreciated. I'm cautioned me to not elevate the contemporary over what has come before. As a culture, we tend to over-value new, at the expense of before. Often we value the new only because it’s new, and not for any intrinsic value of its own. Christmas is not a time for new. It’s best experienced for it’s before-ness, not its new-ness. This concept is often true in relationships. We can easily get wrapped up in new relationships, that take us away from relationships that have been years in the making. New isn’t always better than before. Imagine what would happen if we took the energy we pour into new relationships, and instead directed that energy toward reinvigorating relationships that served us well in the past. 2. People need our prayers A second thing that struck me in the film is the significant amount of prayer in the movie. There are 3 scenes where we see this In the opening scenes of It’s a Wonderful Life! I hear 7 different people praying to God, interceding on behalf of George Bailey. They were aware he was in trouble and in need. Makes me wonder about people in my community. Which of them are in trouble and in need of intervention from God? Do we know the important people in our life well enough to know their needs that we could pray for. We are all much needier than we care to admit. Then in the scene the night of Christmas Eve after George comes home and yells at the kids, kicks over the model bridge in his living room, and throws papers all over the floor, he finally walks out the door. Mary picks up the phone to make a call, while two of the kids, Janie and Tommy ask their mom, “Should I pray for Daddy?” Finally, near the end of the film George is sitting at bar, at his wits end as to how in the world he’s going to get $8k to make to make up for the shortfall at the Building and Loan. Wringing his hands, and looking ever so distraught, George prays under his breathe, “Oh Father in heaven. I’m not a praying man. Show me the way, I’m at the end of my rope. Show me the way.” Interesting prayer. It wasn’t until George was at the end of his rope that God comes through and in a short time, answers George’s prayer and the prayers of others. And he answers in a most unusual way. For some people, it takes coming to the end of themselves before they turn to God. How much better, and wiser, though, would it be to call upon God before we come to the end of our self. This is an important principle I picked up from the movie; I hope it resonates with you, too. 3. Good leaders are good with relationships Another thing that caught my eye is the way in which George Bailey was a leader in relationships. We see it early in the movie when as a 12-year old he organizes his friends for a snow sledding event down a small hill, using snow shovels for sleds. You could tell he was in charge. Then brother Harry falls into a hole in the ice and George forms a rescue party to save his brother. We have corporate leaders, organizational leaders, ministry leaders, but we don’t talk much about relational leaders. Leaders who lead others into better and deeper levels of relationships. George Bailey was such a leader, not only as a 12 year old, but also as an adult in his work at the Savings and Loan, and respected citizen of Bedford Falls. At the end of movie all that money comes pouring in, because of the love people have for GB and the relationships he has developed with them. 4. Keenly observing people enables us to help them Another relationship lesson I learned is the power of being a keen observer of people. George Bailey could “read the room” as a keen observer of people and the human condition. This skill allowed him to connect the dots with people, to understand then better. He pictures himself in the shoes of another. As a kid at his after-school job at Mr. Gower’s drug store - he saw Mr. Gower in a drunken state - then he saw the telegram about his son Robert’s death. He saw this as an explanation for why Mr. Gower was the way he was. His observation skills allowed him to extend grace to Mr. Gower for slapping him upside the head. George, as a young boy, shows his relational maturity when he realizes Mr. Gower put poison in the prescription he filled. He sees the poster “Ask Dad” seeks him out, but he’s in a meeting. Confronts Mr. Gower. Pretty brave of him to do so. By the way did you notice the role of alcohol in the movie? The incident with Mr. Gower, and then Uncle Billy’s drinking problem. We see this first when Harry comes home from college with a new wife, and then he gets drunk at the welcoming home party. We get insight into his problem in the scene on Xmas Eve where George goes over to Uncle Billy’s house to look for the lost $8,000. George roughs up his Uncle and Billy said he’s “looked through the entire house; even those rooms that have been locked up since I lost Laura.” He’s a bit muffled when he says it, but it could explain his drinking. Just like Mr. Gower was drinking upon learning the death of his son Robert. Uncle Billy’s was coping with the death of his wife Laura, and possibly his brother, Peter Bailey. Then we see Uncle Billy the day the S & L closed for the day when there was a run on the bank. Using George and Mary’s wedding money, they had $2 left when they closed at 6pm. Uncle Billy celebrates by drinking. To what extent do you make it a practice to “read the room,” to take notice of what people might be feeling? Hmm. 5. That which bothers us most often reveals the idols in our life George, from early on, had a sense of adventure. He wanted to travel, build big things, bridges, skyscrapers. He shares his dream with Mary in the scene where they throw stones at the vacant Granville house. He tells Mary, “I’m throwing the dust off this crummy little town. I’m gonna see the world, then build skyscraper and bridges a mile long” We see lot again when George’s father asked him if he would come back to the building and loan. The anguish on George’s face. He’d feel trapped at the Building and Loan, “I want to do something important. If I don’t get away I think I’ll bust.” George’s dream for his life comes through loudly in the scene where Harry returns home on the train with his new wife, that no one in his family knew about (and this is a close family????? ) The sister-in-law lets it slip that her father offered Harry for a job, meaning he wouldn’t be taking over for George at the building and loan so he can leave Bedford Falls. Oh, the anguish on George’s face at the train station!! We see it again at the welcome home party for HB and his new wife Ruth. Uncle Billy gets drunk. George hears the train whistle with a melancholy expression contemplating his dark future stuck in Bedford Falls. This goal for his life culminates in the scene where George roughs up Uncle Billy while looking for the missing money. In his anger he calls Uncle Billy a silly old fool. “Don’t you realize what this means. It means scandal, bankruptcy and one of us is having to jail, well it’s not going to be me.” Yeah, jail. The physical manifestation of his emotional entrapment. For George, “throwing the dust off this crummy little town. I’m gonna see the world, then build skyscraper and bridges a mile long“ has clearly become his idol. There’s certainly nothing wrong with what George wanted. but when it becomes this important, and it replaces other good things, when it becomes too important, it becomes an idol. When not getting what you want causes this much anger, it’s become an idol. His idol is change and wanting something he doesn’t have. But as we see at the end of the movie, he had already “traveled,” in a sense. Because of his relationship skills, he was “traveling” wonderful journeys into the hearts and minds of the people of Bedford Falls. He had already built big things, deep and long lasting relationships with the people he encountered. His life was  already a truly Wonderful Life! What are the idols in your life? What are the good things in your life that have become TOO important, that have caused you stress because you don’t have what you want? 6. Relationships have the power to calm our hearts in the midst of stress and turmoil. We see this in George’s relationship with Mary. “What do you want, Mary? You want the moon? Just say the word and I’ll through a lasso around it. I’ll give you the moon and you can swallow it and the moon beams will flow out of the ends of your fingers and hair.” What a great line. George and Mary soon get married. After the run on the bank that drained all their honeymoon money, and that drained George emotionally from dealing with this crisis at work, George goes home to find Mary, who greets him with a wide smile and says, “Welcome home George Bailey.”  The expression on her face causes the tension in George to just drip off the scree. It’s his relationship with Mary that calms George’s heart. At the very end of the film, after dealing with the misplaced $8,000, George gets his 2nd chance to live again. He runs home. Mary then enters house runs up the stairs. Hugs George. Then takes him downstairs, clears two card tables and says,“It’s a miracle, George, It’s a miracle.” Mary opens the door, calls Uncle Billy in, carrying a big wicker laundry basket full of cash. (Hark! the Hearld Angels Sing playing in the background) A very-excited- Uncle Billy then says, “Mary did it George. Mary did it. She scoured all over town telling people you were in trouble….” Then a crowd of people start coming through the door, each bringing in more money for George. Sam Wainwright sent a telegram from London saying Mr. Gower wired him. He authorized the transfer of up to $25,000 for George Bailey” I love this scene at the end. Mary is standing in the background and lets all the other people who care for George to come through the door to greet him and contribute their money. His relationship with his family is what ultimately calms George’s heart in the midst of the prospect of scandal and jail-time. This example of relationships having the power to calm our hearts in the midst of stress and turmoil raises the question of what relationship do I have that calms my heart like this. While our relationships with people can certainly do this, the ultimate source of peace and calm in our hearts is readily available to us in our relationship with God. The bible is overflowing with stories and verses that attest to this fact. 7. When we pray for a solution to a problem, God often provides one we never could have imagined. After the scene where George gets angry and throws a fit is living room and knocks down the model bridge, and then walks out the door, there’s this awkward moment of silence. For all the wonderful qualities of George Bailey, we see a darker side to him, which is one of the reasons I like this movie so much. Like all of his, he’s a mature of virtue and vice. His anger is out of control. I refer to this scene when I give talks on anger, and helping people understand the anger in others and what to do about it. But we’ll save that for another episode. Anyway, back to this scene. After George walks out the door, Mary gets on the phone and calls Bedford 247 and says, “Hello? Uncle Billy?” Next scene is George at Mr. Potter’s office. “I’m in trouble Mr. Potter.” Interesting contrast on where he and Mary go for help. George to Old Man Potter. Mary to Uncle Billy the people who know George best. George went to outsiders for help. Mary went to the insiders of their tribe.. Then we have those great scenes showing God answering the prayers of the 7 people at the very beginning of the film, and George himself. He uses Clarence Oddbody, AS2 (Angel 2nd class), who before he died and became an angel was a clock maker, described by Joseph has “having the IQ of a rabbit.” The voice of God counters with , “Yes, but he has the faith of a child - simple.” How so like God to use people like this to further his purposes and bring glory to himself We see George on abridge, looking down into the waves of the cold river below, contemplating suicide so Mary could collect his life insurance to pay off the missing $8k.. Clarence then jumps in the water, and cries for help. George dives into the water in to save him. The attendant at the bridge asks Clarence, “How did you happen to fall in? “I didn’t fall in; I jumped in to save George.” Sometimes the best thing we can do to help someone is to be needy, to put our self in a position for someone to help us, like Clarence did. While drying off, George tells Clarence that his bleeding came from a punch to his jaw, as an answer to his prayer. Clarence, “Oh no, George. I’m the answer to your prayer. I was sent down to save you, by letting you help me.” Sometimes what we think is the answer to our prayer is entirely different than what we think!!!!!! Clarence is his guardian angel, he says. This is hard for George to accept help. He’s been doing it on his own for the whole movie. He’s helping others, but isn’t letting others help him. Clarence’s challenge is to get George to appreciate all he has done in investing in relationships throughout his life. Clarence keeps saying “If it hadn’t been for you…” That is George’s underlying problem. George, however, is thinking only about the need for the $8k. Then Clarence gets an idea from heaven, when George says “I wish I never would have been born” he stops using logic to change his mind. Clarence stops fighting GB ,and instead begins to show him the implications of what happens if he gets what he wants. Clarence then shows what actually would have happened if George had never been born. One in particular that hits home with George was Clarence showing the tremendous loss of life from a transport ship sinking. Clarence says “Every man on that transport died because Harry wasn’t there to save them, because you weren’t there to save Harry. he died at 8 years of age.” Clarence: “Strange, isn’t it. Each man affects every other man.” This finally registers with George. After this he rushes back to the bridge. He calls for Clarence, his guardian angel. “Clarence, Clarence, get me back. Get me back. I don’t care what happens to me. Get me back to my wife and kids. Help[ me Clarence, Please. Please. I want to live again [ NOTE: he’s asking for help. It’s like a prayer…] he says several times “I want to live again. I want to love again. Please God, let me live again” So it was a prayer to God.] What a remarkable and unimaginable means God used to answer the prayers of many on behalf of George Bailey. An angel second class, “with the IQ of a rabbit, but the faith of a child.” It’s just like him! Here’s a list of the 7 relationship lessons I picked up from this movie. Before is often better than now People need our prayers Good leaders are good with relationships Keen observing of people enables us to help them That which bothers us most reveals the idols in our life Relationships have the power to calm our hearts in the midst of stress and turmoil When we pray for a solution to a problem, God often provides one we never could have imagined. Here’s the one thing to remember from today’s episode, our show in a sentence: It truly is a “Wonderful Life!” when we invest in relationships, caring for each other, even though the deepest longings in our own heart are never satisfied. Here are some suggestions for what you can do in response to today’s show. First off, make plans now to see It’s a Wonderful Life! soon. Carefully consider WHERE you see it. If you can, go see the movie on the big screen in a movie theater. There’s something about that big gray Liberty Bell from Liberty Films that you just don’t get watching the movie at home. Second best, is to rent or buy the DVD of the movie. I bought the DVD on Amazon. Under no circumstances should you ever ever ever watch the colorized version! As a last resort, watch it on network TV during the Christmas season. But with all the interruptions for commercials it loses a lot. Then consider HOW to watch the film. Watch it with your family or friends. And then discuss it with them Watch it looking for the relationships lessons I mentioned. You’ll probably find even more that what I’ve commented about. Consider what a wonderful place our community would be if we were more like Bedford Falls, and cared for each other like the characters in the movie. With that in mind, watch It’s a Wonderful Life! looking for a character or two you could aspire to be more like. George Bailey? Mary? Peter Bailey. Mr. Gower. But if it’s Old Man Potter…. Consider what you could do to make your town a bit like Bedford Falls Finally, watch it looking to see where God is at work in the life of the characters. That’s important, because as we God at work in the lives of other people, it reminds us how He can work in our life too…if we let him. Closing Our other listeners and me would love to hear what resonated with you about today’s episode. You can share your thoughts in the “Leave a Reply” box at the bottom of the show notes. Or you can send them to me in an email to john@caringforothers.org. Next week will be our last episode of Season Two. But we’ll start up again soon with Season Three of You Were Made for This in January. I’ll explain more next week. Now for Our Relationship Quote of the Week Strange, isn’t it. Each man affects every other man.                                     ~ Clarence Oddbody,  Angel first class, because he earns his wings by the end of the film) That’s all for today. See you next week. Bye for now. Resources mentioned in today’s show It’s a Wonderful Life! Dvd

Pastor Daniel Simmons preaching from Luke 1:26-38 where he described how God became a man through Mary. The Greatest Announcement Ever Made Luke 1:26-38 Exegetical Main Point: The Angel Gabriel announces thatthe virginMary will give birthby the power of the Holy Spiritto a son who will be a King. He will be named Jesus, and will be called the Son of the Most High. Mary's belief in her identity as God's servant informs her humble submission to the Lord. Main Point of the Sermon: True belief in God must lead to surrender. Introduction: I have to admit that I have been caught off guard by the Lord’s commands at times in my life. It’s like I have no problem accepting them until the moment that I realize just what that means for my day. “Wait, you want me to give up what? This was true for me in my early twenties, when God awakened me to the ways that I had put my music career before his Lordship. There’s a lot to the story, but what became clear to me at that point was that following Christ meant surrendering the wheel of my life to him from that point on. You see, God’s call to follow him often comes with the need to lay something down that is very dear to us. Have you experienced this? It doesn’t always make sense, does it? “Move where, do what?” Sometimes it even seems impossible, so unnatural! But in reality, if it doesn’t cost us, then we are probably not actually surrendering anything at all. As you immerse yourself in the story of God, it becomes clear that humble submission and surrender to God characterize the Christian because it characterized Christ our King. In causing Christ’s life to be born in you, God expects the death of self. In other words, we must be willing to carry our own cross, even daily. We will see an example of this today in the life of the virgin Mary. But before we look at Mary’s surrender, we need to get a glimpse of the greatness of the king. Outline: The Greatest Announcement Ever Made vv. 26-37 Mary’s Belief Lead to Surrender vv. 38 The Christian’s Belief Must Lead to Surrender The Greatest Announcement ever made vv. 26-33 Luke tells us that the same angel, Gabriel, who was sent to Zechariah six months earlier, “was sent to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary” (vv. 26-27). Luke’s Comparison I want you to notice the similarities of this story to last week’s prophecy of John’s birth because Luke seems to be up to something in the progression and details of the story. In fact, chapter 1:5 all the way to 2:52 make up what Bible scholars call the infancy narrative. Slide: John’s birth prophesied, Jesus’s birth prophesied > the meeting of the two mothers > John’s birth > Jesus’s birth > In this set up, it is clear that Luke’s aim is to compare the two important figures. Philip Ryken, who has written a good deal on the Bible’s literary features, observes some of the similarities: “two cousins, two pregnancies, two hymns of praise, and two deliveries at the beginning of two great lives.”[1] Slide: Notice the differences also: John came in the Spirit and power of Elijah to point others to the Lord. But Jesus isKing and Lord. John would be filled withthe Holy Spirit, but Jesus would be born of the Holy Spirit. John would be great beforethe Lord. But Jesus is called “great” without qualification. Both men are great, but Luke intends to show you in these birth narratives who is the true object of our worship. Jesus is infinitely greater. Though he is great like this, his humble approach is staggering. The announcement of his birth came to a very unlikely place and person. Lowly Place and Person Place:Luke’s mention of the specific location of this event is significant because of the lowly size and poor reputation of Nazareth. You may remember the words of Nathaniel when he first heard of Jesus and his hometown: “‘Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?’” (John 1:46). Nazareth was far off the path of the important places in Israel. It was a halfway stop between Tyre and Sidon, and was full of Gentiles and Roman soldiers. Person: Mary was also an unlikely and unknown figure. Scholars believe she was probably no more than 15 years old, and perhaps as young as 12, probably illiterate, like most poor young women in that time, with little knowledge of the Scriptures, other than what she had memorized at home or heard in the synagogue. Her life was not set up for greatness. She would marry young, bear other poor children, never travel far from home, and eventually die like others before her. Pastor Kent Hughes writes, Mary was “a nobody in a nothing town in the middle of nowhere… [but]the greatest news ever proclaimed in Israel came to the humblest of its people!” Hughes continues, “The Lord comes to needypeople—those who realize that without him they cannot make it—those who acknowledge their weakness and spiritual lack. The Incarnation, salvation, resurrection, Christmasare not for the proud and self-sufficient.”[2] This is truly incredible and says something about our God. The greatest honor ever given to man, to be the mother of the Lord Jesus, was given to a teenage peasant girl! As we move forward in the story, we will see God continue to bring this news to unlikely people. The announcement will come to lowly Shepherds in the following chapter. Maybe your life feels insignificant today. You need to know that God knows you. His birth, his coming, his kingdom is for people like you. This humble beginning sets the stage for the humble life that Jesus would lead, pursuing the poor, the meek, the sinner. Let’s continue in the text. Verse 28: 28 And [Gabriel] came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. The angel here acknowledges the favor, the grace, being shownto this young woman. This is why we believe that Mary is not to be prayed to or worshipped, but yet one that should be honored as incredibly blessed by virtue of the grace that has been shown to her by God. Just think, our Lord’s face will resemble Mary’s face.This gift was given to her not because she was sinless or a perpetual virgin, neither of which are anywhere taught in Scripture, but because she has been shown grace by God. “Greetings, o favored one, the Lord is with you” is an Old Testament greeting which affirmed that God would help the recipient. This was a kind greeting because this young girl was shaken up. We are told that she was “greatly troubled” and that she tried to discern what was happening to her. She was not hysterical, but sought to understand. This is a pretty amazing young woman. How do you think you would respond if it were you? Then came the incredible announcement to Mary: “You will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.” Oh how I love the name of Jesus. Though this was a common name in that time, Mary was the first person to hear the name of the Messiah. What a sweet name. Jesus is a Greek rendering of the Hebrew name Joshua, meaning “Yahweh Saves”. This naming is no coincidence. One commentator writes, “Just as Joshua had led Israel into the Promised Land (see Joshua 1:1–2), so Jesus would lead his people into eternal life.” People took the meaning of names seriously in that time, seeing them as having power. At the name of Jesus demons would be cast out, the sick would be healed, and the dead would be raised.[3] Here at All Peoples Church, we love the name of Jesus and believe there is power in the name of Jesus. Gabriel told Mary that the child “will be great and will be called Son of the Most High”. This title “Son” is a significant Messianic title that would have been recognized by anyone who had knowledge of the Scriptures. Think about Gen 49 where Jacob prophecies the greatness of Judah’s offspring, or Psalm 2, the famous Messianic Psalm, which warns all who would fail to submit to the “Son”, or Isaiah, which teems with Messianic descriptions and prophecy. I’ll read two of them: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14). “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon[d] his shoulder, and his name shall be called[e] Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6). If that title didn’t ring bells for Mary, the angel made it even more explicit: And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” Mary is told that Jesus would fulfill the covenant promises made to King David that someone would reign on his throne forever. It is no coincidence that Joseph AND MARY were of the lineage of David. Let’s look at 2 Samuel 7, from where this promise comes. Starting in verse 12, God speaking to David, tells him that when he dies he will raise up offspring after him through whom he will establish his throne forever. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. The beginning of this prophecy is initially fulfilled in the reign of his son, King Solomon, and further, in the reign of his sons, but the unusual and amazing promise here is that even though God prophesies that these sons would fall in sin, God promises that his steadfast love would not be taken away from this “son”, like it was taken from king Saul. Instead, David’s house and kingdom would be made sure forever through him. Gabriel tells Mary as explicitly as it comes, this child you are about to have is the long awaited son of David, who will reign over the “house of Jacob forever”, which stands for all of Israel. His reign will never end. Mary would have put the pieces together and known the weight of these sayings. This child was not just any child of God, like we would call ourselves a child of God. He would reign forever. He would be called “Immanuel” – God with us. This child had a unique identity, a divine sonship. Yahweh was truly coming to save his people. At Jesus’s conception (1:35), at his baptism (3:22), at his transfiguration (9:35), and in his resurrection (Acts 13:33), Luke is slowly unfolding the true identity of Jesus of Nazareth – this Jesus is God the Son, the second member of the Trinity, the eternal Son being born to man. Imagine your newsfeed blowing up with the news “Aliens land on earth!” This announcement would go viral and change the course of history forever. This is probably just how crazy this would have been for Jews of this day to hear the news “God will become a man”. First, God hadn’t spoken, it was believed, for 400 years. More importantly, it was unthinkable, even impossible, in the Jewish mind that the Creator could become one of the creatures. The Vikings winning the super bowl seems impossible, and would be pretty incredible to hear about, but I promise you, Vikings fans, it would pale in comparison to this. This announcement literally changed the course of history. It is truly “The Greatest Announcement Ever Made”. Mary’s Question: Mary couldn’t help herself. The most obvious question arising in her mind was “How is this possible”? I’m a virgin (vs 34). It’s important to note the difference between Zechariah and Mary’s questions. Zechariah’s question doubted the angel’s words. He wanted some sort of sign to knowthat it will come to pass. But Mary, believing that the event would take place simply asks “how”? In what way. Mary, being betrothed to Joseph, would not have lived with him and would certainly not have had sexual relations with him. The betrothal period was even considered a testing period for the betrothed couple to prove their sexual fidelity. It usually lasted up to a year and any sexual act would have actually been considered adultery. Mary was carefully preserving her sexual purity, according to God’s commands, so understanding how babies came into the world raised questions for Mary. Jesus’s greatness only gets clearer as the angel keeps speaking. Look at verse 35: The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. “How will I have this child?”, the young virgin asked. Gabriel’s reply: GOD will do it. The Spirit of God will come upon you; he will overshadow you. One commentator points out that this image of overshadowing can be seen throughout Scripture all the way back to the creation narrative when the Spirit hovered over the waters (Gen. 1:2).[4] Jesus birth would not be a result of man. Mary knew that what the angel was saying was impossible. It would be a miracle, a child born of the Holy Spirit, a creative miracle, similar to the creation of the first man, but far far greater. The texts reads, “Therefore”, as a result of this miraculous work of the Holy Spirit, we are told that this child would be “called holy – the Son of God.” This would not be like any other child. This would be God with us. God incarnated in human flesh. Some might wonder why did God need to do it this way? Why did the Christ have to be born of a virgin? I’m glad you asked. This, is in fact our hope, that Jesus was not born of Adam’s seed. Humanity could not be saved from within because every man born of Adam, humanity’s head, the first father, was born with sin, a sin nature. We needed a Savior from without. He was born of the Holy Spirit. But he also had to be man in order to save mankind. It could not be the blood of bulls or goats that would atone for our sin. It had to be the very image of God. So, Jesus was born of a woman, Mary. Therefore, this man was holy. He was a son like Adam, but one without sin: one man with two natures, fully God and fully man. The God-man. Theologian Wayne Grudem writes: “[The incarnation] is by far the most amazing miracle of the entire Bible – – far more amazing than the resurrection and more amazing even than the creation of the universe. The fact that the infinite, omnipotent, eternal Son of God could become man and join himself to a human nature forever, so that infinite God became one person with finite man, will remain for eternity the most profound miracle and the most profound mystery in all the universe (Grudem, 563).” Christians believe and have confessed this miracle for millennia. The virgin birth is one of the primary doctrines that uphold his deity. Denying it is to deny the faith. Jesus is not just any man. He is like no other. There is none greater. Kindly, the angel gave Mary a sign that this miracle would indeed take place, saying, 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” “Mary, I know that this seems impossible and beyond your comprehension, but you know your elderly cousin, Elizabeth, who was barren, she is now 6 months pregnant. Mary, you need to know nothing will be impossible with God.” Some of you need to hear this today. As you consider the call that is before you, the mission, the lifestyle, the holiness he is calling you to that seems so impossible – nothing will be impossible with God! No sin is too great, no land too far, no amount too much, no mission too big for God. “If God is for us, who can be against us” (Rom 8:31)! Mary’s Belief Lead to Surrender vv. 38 Having heard all the angel’s words, having heard the greatness and humility of the King to be born, Mary responds with the famous words, 38 “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” Church, I hope these words catch you by surprise like they did me this week. Teenage Mary’s thoughtful question has been answered. She’s heard everything the angel has said, and pondering it all, her response is, “I know I am not my own. I am a servant of the Lord. So let it be just as you have said.” I seriously can’t believe the humility of this young woman. God was truly with her. Her identity informs her response. Do you see that? “I am the servant of the Lord. Therefore, let it be.” “It will bring me shame but I am your servant. This life God has given me is not about me, but about what He has for me. This marriage I am excited about may end as a result of this, but your call for me is more important than this marriage, than my reputation, than my choice for my body, my energy, the entire trajectory of my life! My life is not my own, but it is God’s. I am the servant of the Lord, so let it be as you’ve said!” Mary would suffer the pain child birth, and the strain of raising children in poverty. She would see her son ridiculed before all the religious leaders of Israel, the people of his own town, she would be in turmoil over Jesus’s identity; she would show up to try to pull him away from the mess of it all; and she would stand in witness of his brutal lashing and crucifixion. She would eventually worship at her resurrected son’s feet, the feet that were formed in her body; she would again hold the nail-pierced hands that she so tenderly caressed as a child, and embrace the face that nursed at her bosom, and the body which carried all the weight of her sin and the sin of the world. This young woman didn’t have any clue of what pain she was getting herself into, ultimately, but she was ready and willing to take it on because she saw herself as God’s servant. Mary is the first one to believe this message about who Jesus is. This is why some have called her the first Christian. She is truly a model for the Christian life, indeed, for all humans. Our Belief Must Lead to Surrender This Gospel of God has come to you today. What are you doing with it? Do you embrace it with humble faith like Mary, or do you reject it in pride because you can’t prove it? Mary’s understanding of her lowliness before God aided her with the humility to bow in submission to God. Do you think of yourself as too great, too educated, to believe such a story and submit to God’s call to come and serve him, to die to self so that you might be reborn in Christ? The doctrine of the virgin birth and the Christian message is not one to try to debate or prove, but a miracle of grace to be embraced in faith. Though it stands under scrutiny, God’s Word is not to be tested by the supposed greater authority of science or human logic. Jesus’s divine nature is not one to be fully comprehended, but a mystery to be embraced in faith, his conquering Kingdom one to be surrendered to, not reasoned with. We seek and we find. We look and learn by all the sciences, archeology, and history. But God has revealed himself to us in his Word and in Jesus, who was given for our salvation, and confirmed by many signs, the greatest being the sign of the resurrection, and it is up to us to humbly submit to our Maker, who formed us to serve him in joyful relationship with him. Submitting Your Life Jesus calls for your allegiance today. Is that what he has? God didn’t come to Mary and offer her an option that only involved a couple years of her life, some of her money, time, talent, but rather called her to a life surrendered to God’s purposes for her. If you are believing today, is your heart like Mary’s, ready and willing to drop anything and everything at the beckoning call of the King in humble submission to him? Don’t you see that choosing Christ, being baptized into him, means dying to self completely so that Christ’s life could reign in you? Are you surrendering your finances right now, your career, your dreams, that relationship, your family to Christ the King. Are you like Mary laying down your sexual desires and inclinations to serve the Lord? Are you willing to say no to the world and lose its honor in order to say to yes the Lord and gain his? What is he calling you to today? And what is your response? Do you see yourself as a servant of the Lord, ready to surrender to him no matter what it is. Jesus Conclusion: In calling you to lay down your life in surrender to him, Christ is calling you to do something that he has already done. What Mary did for Christ, Christ did infinitely more. He left heaven and all of his glory, taking on human flesh in utter humility, even dying the death that we deserve for the mess we’ve put ourselves in with sin (Phil 2). If the path he calls you to today seems impossible, unnatural, and low, Christ has gone lower. And in calling you low with him, in calling you to take your cross with him, he is only calling you to greatness in resurrection life. If we have died with him, we will also be raised with him. Our belief in God must lead us to surrender from the beginning to the end. Let’s pray. [1]Philip Graham Ryken, Luke, ed. Richard D. Phillips, Philip Graham Ryken, and Daniel M. Doriani, vol. 1, Reformed Expository Commentary (Phillipsburg, NJ: P&R Publishing, 2009), 28–40. [2]R. Kent Hughes, Luke: That You May Know the Truth, Preaching the Word (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 1998), 28–37. [3]Bruce Barton et al., Life Application New Testament Commentary(Wheaton, IL: Tyndale, 2001), 243–244. [4]Philip Graham Ryken, Luke, ed. Richard D. Phillips, Philip Graham Ryken, and Daniel M. Doriani, vol. 1, Reformed Expository Commentary (Phillipsburg, NJ: P&R Publishing, 2009), 28–40.

Geek alert! What happens when you get two marketers into a room? THIS! Today’s guest is my friend and fellow marketer Mary Czarnecki -- who has impressive brands behind her name that she’s worked with and taught workshops too (like Johnson and Johnson, Starbucks, and WebMD). In the show notes below, I've pulled out some nuggets in Q & A format. Enjoy! Mallory: What’s a huge question people tend to ask you first? Mary: So the thing I really work with people on is helping them get out of that shiny object overwhelm.  So so many times, my first conversation with someone is, Hey, can you tell me about Facebook ads? Or hey, can you tell me how to do my social media? Hey, can you figure you know, someone told me I need an email? Why do I need an email list? And so the first kind of opening the mind moment, for a lot of business owners I talked to, is that someone has told them to do something, or that they should be doing something that they're coming out of the space of overwhelm, or, you know, kind of a lack of confidence, because they're amazing at what they do, right? They’re confident that they can deliver, whatever it is, they're an expert in. But then all of a sudden, someone has said something to them, or they've read something that's now taken a knock at their kind of expert business owner confidence.  And they think that this tactic, this thing, this one platform or activity, they're missing out on or they should know about, or their competition is going to do and then steal over all their clients.  And so usually my question conversations are starting at the tactical level, but what I love doing is bringing people back their confidence by bringing the conversation up to the strategic level.    Mallory: This is perfect. It sounds like something I heard a few years ago by Val Geisler about just-in-time learning vs just-in-case learning. When we’re unsure about what the best next move is, as business owners we typically default to learning something new or needing a new shiny tactic to make it all better.  That's what I see a lot with clients, too, is they have all these ideas, muddled in their head. They're trying to consume stuff. But there's nothing to be put in practice because there's just so much learning taking place.  So the new filter becomes “What do you need to know right this minute to do your goals you just talked about for the next 90 days?”  So the new filter becomes “What do you need to know right this minute to do your goals you just talked about for the next 90 days?”  - Mallory Schlabach Mallory: Let’s talk about some must-dos small business owners and entrepreneurs need to focus on for marketing:  Mary: You need a roadmap that really breaks your marketing plan down into a system where you're actually looking at the conversion equation to figure out okay, you know, how am I literally bringing people into my world? How am I engaging them? How am I educating them so that they feel good making a decision to work with me? And then what am I literally offering them so it's, it's creating this kind of connection, nurture and conversion system, but on a level, that's not going to burn you out on a bunch of different route trials, or testing ideas. Make sure your offers you’re putting out into the world and what you’re selling are actually tapping into their biggest hot button need so that you're not just talking to like, lower-level issues. Too many times we try to solve something that’s only painful enough to whine about -- not painful enough to do anything about it.  Find out what your market wants to buy. So many businesses put products out that they think are going to sell but the only focus group they've consulted is themselves, they haven't actually asked their market what they want and then it flops.  Mallory: Yes, that's such a true thing! When I work with clients, I don't know if it feels really daunting to them to have to ask their audience first or if it makes them feel like they don't have it all together? It feels counterintuitive, but you want to test things and make sure you're not wasting all your money and time. There is almost more mindset to being an entrepreneur that skill…. Almost!  Mary: One thing that I did not expect from becoming a business transformation and marketing coach was how much mindset work and life coaching. Yeah. So which is actually funny what I actually went and got my health coaching certification specifically to help that because I found so many people just not taking the tactical marketing steps they needed because they had mindset limitations. Right? Mallory: Exactly. That's why I have a business and life coaching certification as well as that. We think we can keep our personal life and business life separate, but your personal life affects your business, and your business definitely affects your personal life. I completely agree. My sessions with clients almost feel like sometimes therapy sessions sometimes, which I do love. Nobody tells you that as an entrepreneur that a lot of the stuff you’re struggling with is just in your head.  Mallory: What happens when someone feels stuck or like they’ve plateaued in their business? Mary: I like to talk about the five-part profit formula which is to make more money in business you can: get more leads or get more people in the door, you get those people to convert at a higher rate,  you either get more transactions ( so either you need them to either buy more often or buy more stuff from you you raise your prices  you lower margins by dealing with operational costs That's it. Like that's how you make money in business, right. And so as a marketer, and a, you know, business transformation strategist, what I'm really focused on is looking at, not so much like, Where have you come from? And like, how do we get more of that, but almost asking the question of like, Okay, this is awesome. This is what you built, this is who you have been serving. Let's look at that as like now is that where you want to go?  If you haven't started planning for your next goal, by the time you hit that one goal, that's where I'm seeing so many people plateau. And so that's the catalyst that a lot of people I think that are coming to me are saying, I worked my little butt off to get to point a, right, I did all the things like all the targeting all the work, and I'm here now. Now I want more growth, I want more time freedom, I want more sanity back in my business, I want more confidence in my marketing. But I'm doing okay, so I did something.  Mallory: Okay, so one thing that you brought up in that exact scenario, that I was thinking too, is that I've seen with my clients, as well as, when you get to that point where you're, you've kind of met that initial goal and you're still hungry for growth, and clearly you want to grow but it can almost feel like you're gonna have to work harder.  And like you don't have any idea how you're going to run any faster or split your time anymore, or who you could even hire to bring on because it's going to turn upside down your profit margins. So that then it can feel like you're stuck all of a sudden, and you don't know what even what to do next.  That's what I look at in my audits as well as the first thing I want to increase is conversions. That is the fastest, right? Conversions and pricing. This is the two fastest ways you can change things up immediately. Mallory: Where do you start with someone who feels stuck?  Mary: I usually start with the first two, as well, so the leads coming into their business and the conversions. Now, that being said, I don't know any small business or entrepreneur that doesn't want fast cash in their business. And you're right, one of the fastest ways to change your profit in the short term is definitely going to be looking at your pricing and your packaging. So what I'll do is I'll kind of do like a little cash booster at the beginning, which is literally what selling now like, what if you didn't change any of your marketing, any religion, any anything, except the price of this product, or the way that you're structuring it in the package that you're the offer that you're giving? Is there a way for us to tweak that so we can get you some, you know, fast cash in the door, like a little cash boost?  A lot of times small, incremental changes in price won't affect your conversion rate, but it will massively impact your top-line revenue. Right? So that's kind of the booster that I'll do with people a lot of times right out the door.  But then in terms of really looking at what change can we make that might need a little bit more of a runway, but will also create this foundation for this next growth stage for you is going to be how are they bringing people into their business? Right? What is their lead generation and client acquisition process? And then what are they doing to increase those conversions? Because a lot of times people are so focused on the lead generation that they forget about, once you bring people into your, into your world into your office into your restaurant or onto your webpage? Like, what are you doing to actually enhance your conversion rate? And are you giving them options? So on the leads part, you know, we'll talk about everything from social media, you know, selling systems to, you know, even looking at joint ventures, a lot of times people think of joint ventures as oh my gosh, that's going to take so much work, and I'm not gonna get a lot out of it, what I've actually seen it work well for is when you can find a win win.  For people that are already talking to the people you want to talk to, if you can bring the value to the table, there can be less work for you in the lead generation space, which is kind of nice. And then with the conversions, you know, once you've got people into your world, you and I both talked a lot about how do you capture people's contact information. So you can kind of drip on them and nurture them through things like email, or in a Facebook group or on social media with, you know, whether you're using bots or whether you're, you know, personally messaging people, but then also once you're nurturing them, and they're actually at the point of purchase, not just giving them cut and dry offers.  A lot of business owners forget about the upsell and the down-sell, which is something that corporate and big business has mastered and captures a lot of incremental income in that way. And so that's one of the tools that I definitely introduced to people that in the first phase of business, they may just may not have thought of.    Mallory: Can we geek out for just a second? Because I don't think most people actually even track stuff in their business. So can you please indulge me? What are your favorite metrics? What do you recommend your clients track? Because I could geek out on this all day long. Mary: Yeah, for sure. So yes, I definitely believe in tracking metrics. I feel like a lot of people hide their numbers because they're scared of what they might be. But here's the thing, just like avoiding stepping on a scale of that's a sore point for you, not knowing where you're starting from, it's not going to allow you to have the celebration moments when you do achieve your goals, and see how far you've come. So yeah, in terms of what to track in your business I put people in different buckets.  So if there are people, the starter trackers right there, like just give me the three things I just need three times if that's the case, you know, I'm really looking at how many lead generating activities are you taking in your business every week? So if I'm working with someone like a health coach, or a business coach, or someone that's really needing to get on calls with people to sell their services, how many calls Did you have last week? How many you have this week? How many calls you have booked next week?  But if you're the starter tracker, I just look at what really that sales activity is, for people that don't necessarily have calls in their business. If you're selling something at a boutique or restaurant I like to look at not just the number of customers that are coming in, but look at like the average selling price. So has your average selling price or average purchase price change over time? So does your average consumer if you're a high volume person, like if you're serving a lot of clients, instead of the coach that maybe just needs a few good high-quality high-ticket clients? If you're serving volume, then it's How has your average selling price tracked over time? Have you changed your marketing tactics? So maybe you're pulling from a pool of people that are going to spend less? Or are you pulling from a pool of people and offering them, you know, a higher value opportunity to work with you? So that's those are two that I would track.  Mallory: Yes! This story was told to me at a retreat one time:  Four strangers who are getting to know each other all get into an airplane. They're flying over these beautiful mountains and this gorgeous scenery and everyone's like, Oh, my gosh! Where are we going? And the pilot’s like, “I have no idea. But we're making great time!” That's how I feel we often end up as business owners. If you don't have metrics, you have no idea what’s working and what’s costing you money and time -- which spells death for a business. Anybody who's ever worked with me, you know, I give them a list of the metrics that I would recommend you start tracking right now, based on your goals because you just need to take a pulse check on your business.  So this is good, this is good! I wanted to hear somebody else tell my audience to track their metrics. In episode #005 you can download a master spreadsheet of metrics to track and how to get started.  I feel like it just makes decision making easier which, as entrepreneurs, we talked at the beginning, right, there are so many little micro-decisions you're making all the time, that it's really easy to see why we don't get further along in our business or get a lot more accomplished because we're committing our brainpower to such tiny things that aren’t very important.  Mallory: Mary, what is on the horizon for you? What are you working on kind of what's next for you over the next couple of months?  Mary: In the past six months, I actually launched my first online program. So basically got to download my MBA brand into some videos, templates and swipe files there for business, what I was finding was some people just work at that phase of being ready to work one on one. And whether it was a dog trainer, whether it was a winery, or whether it was the restaurant, the all across all the clients I've ever worked with, there was a few consistent pieces, elements that everyone has to master in their business, as I was able to kind of download BAM your brain on those topics into this program. It's called the Audience Intelligence Accelerator and it's really the first step, if you're just getting started. And you feel like you haven't gotten into that deep level of understanding with your audience, quote, unquote, nailed your niche.  But like we talked about, it's also for that next level of business owner, that's serious, but the business side of it may have been doing this awhile, but has fallen into that trap of I kind of feel like I'm trying to serve everyone, or I'm not quite sure I'm hitting that deepest pain point. So it gives them a framework and some great swipe files for actually implementing that in their business.  So that I really, really excited about. And then I'm also launching a new group program. So what I found is that sometimes working with people one on one is what they need. But I also part of group programs that I get a huge amount from not just the person who's running it, but also the other members in the group. Because sometimes I'm at a phase in my business where I know I have a question, but I can't almost even find the words for it. And so being able to tap into the group consciousness and like, be able to use that to articulate and be like, yes, she asked exactly what I was thinking, but I couldn't find that word. About Mary Czarnecki: Mary Czarnecki is a Marketing Strategist and Business Transformation Consultant specializing in brand positioning, audience insight development, and sales funnel strategy. After spending nearly two decades helping grow Fortune 500 brands like WebMD and Johnson & Johnson, she's now committed to doing the same for ambitious entrepreneurs and business owners.  When she’s not working, Mary loves spending time with her husband and two boys exploring the outdoors. She’s always up for a hike in the woods or a weekend camping trip! She’s a former Jersey Girl now raising her business and family in Oregon’s Willamette Valley wine country. 3 Things About Mary Czarnecki:  1. I'm originally a Jersey Girl but have fallen in love with Oregon (however I maintain that the Jersey Shore is MUCH better for body surfing and has WAY better pizza) 2. I love the outdoors... in college, I was an Outdoor Action Wilderness Leader and led 7-10 day backpacking trips and also spent the summer before senior year sleeping in a tent on an NC barrier island watching wild horses for my senior thesis (man - was I blond by the end of those 4 months!) 3. Becoming a mom rocked my world! It's more and different than I ever imagined... and although I'll ALWAYS be a mom and would walk across FIRE for my kids, I know now that being a mom isn't ALL that I am... and I'm continuously learning how to be a great mom and true to myself at the same time! Connect with Mary: Website | Facebook | LinkedIn | Facebook Group | Instagram About Marketing Magic: The Marketing Magic podcast is where women entrepreneurs trying to do all the things come to get inspiration, business strategy, and on-air coaching on how to get their business noticed and growing. If you have a business that people need to know about in order for it to grow, you’re in the right place. This is the place to uncomplicate your marketing. Be sure to listen, subscribe, and leave a review! Join the conversation of other unapologetically successful women in her Facebook community, The #girlboss Club.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号： VOA英语每日一听Adrienne: So, Mary, what's in the basket there?Mary: Oh, those are all the Christmas cards I received this year.Adrienne: Oh, that's a lot.Mary: Yeah, it's quite a few. I had kind of an extensive list for people I would send cards to but in October my hard drive crashed and I lost my Christmas card list, so I had a hard time trying to figure out how to get cards to everybody this year, so what I've been doing is when I receive a card I'm cutting out everyone's return address and actually taping it to the back of their card so that way I'll have an ability to rebuild that list at some point.Adrienne: Wow, that sounds like a big project.Mary: You know it's really so bad cause I enjoy taking a look at the cards anyhow so it's something do while I'm looking at the cards.Adrienne: So when do you usually send your Christmas cards out?Mary: Well, I try to send them out in the middle of December but this year they left my house on the 21st, so it was sort of way to close to the end.Adrienne: Right. Right. Um, what about next year? Will you try to get them out in the middle of December?Mary: I'm definitely going to try cause now that I have everyone's address I'll be able to rebuild that list hopefully before December.Adrienne: Well, sounds like a good plan. Good luck.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Adrienne: So, Mary, who are these guys here?Mary: This one's Piper. She's seven. She just had a birthday in October, and this one's Daisy, she's got kind of an older face on her. I think she's probably about nine years old.Adrienne: Are these your children?Mary: You know, they could be my children, but they're actually dogs. Golden Retrievers.Adrienne: They're so pretty.Mary: Yeah, they're a lot of my attention. They really have my heart captured right now, so I do spend a lot of time, you know, working on them and training them and taking them out for walks during the day and as you can tell by the big giant basket behind you they have a lot of toys so they're kind of active. They like swinging stuff around and playing outside. (Pipe. Hi, there!).Adrienne: So how did you get them?I actually raised a Golden Retriever puppy for about 8 years. When I lost her, I remember thinking to myself, I'd love to have another golden retriever but puppies are really hard work, and wouldn't it be great if I could just find a dog that was already an adult, and I made mention to it to someone at work one day and she let me know of an organization, a rescue organization that worked primarily with Golden Retrievers, so I contacted the organization and they had several dogs available for adoption and I went and met a few, and kind of figured out their personalities and decided that there was one there for me, and that was Tucker, my big, big male who I had for a long time, so I ended up adopting him when he was a year and a half. He still had a lot of puppy in him, but he was already housebroken, and you know, in pretty good shape for bringing home so he was a lot of fun. That was my first experience with the organization, and they are a great organization. I really believe in a lot of the work they do, because a couple of the dogs, Piper in particular, happen to have been an abused animal unfortunately in the first part of her life so this organization spent a lot of time kind of evaluating the right kind of environment for an animal, and the right kind of animal for a family so the adoption process, as they call it, it's really involved, It's almost like adopting a child because they want to make sure that you're home is, you know properly set up for a dog this size and that your yard is fenced and that you can handle a dog like this and have what it takes to train him and get him to trust humans again so it's been a really long process in some cases. When I adopted daisy, almost two years ago, that was not so hard. She was a very easy dog to adopt. She just came in, made herself at home, got along great with Piper right away and, you know, she has never given me any concern or any reason to worry about her temperament. She's been just such an easy going dog.Adrienne: Yeah, she seems like a sweetheart. Both of them are.Mary: Yeah, they're fun. They're fun.

This is one of several extended meditations within Norma's online course, Resetting Your Financial Guides, learning to hear and follow the guides working with you around finances, ease and life-issues. This meditation includes insights and energy healing around financial disempowerment; focusing on releasing energies that cause us to feel over-whelmed and to over-work. It includes a healing song, as well as a spoken channeling from Mary (You are Enough) One of the most interesting sections looks at how we use our personal energy to 'tune' our possessions. This allows us to define our 'stuff', but may also limit what we allow ourselves to receive in life. You can watch other videos and enroll in the course at: Resetting Your Financial Guides an online course by Norma Gentile

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1%3A26-38&version=NRSVACE (Luke 11:26-38) Quite a few years ago, as I was getting ready to lead a late-night Christmas Eve service, I saw a young lady who was home from college approach me with a young man in tow. After she introduced us, he told me how excited he was to be there, and he was a Muslim. He said, “You know, pastor, we're brothers! We really do believe the same thing, as far as I'm concerned.” It stunned me for just a moment, but then I responded, “It's so good to have you here tonight, but we're not brothers. However, I have some great news to share with you during the worship tonight!” Have you noticed that in the name of open-mindedness, not wanting to be offensive, or perhaps the result of a sheer lack of knowledge, people will try to lump all the religions into one? They are all pretty much the same – love God, love neighbor. Why can't we get along? The thing is, nothing could be further from the truth. An honest examination of them shows they are not even close to each other. One of the major sticking points is Jesus Christ. What makes Jesus is so unique, like no other? This is what we have been talking about these days. In the first message of the series, we talked about how Jesus was promised like no other by the prophets. Today we see He had a birth like no other. This is the main idea we learn in Mary's encounter with the angel, Gabriel, in today's passage. Listen to what the angel said to Mary: “You will conceive in your womb a son . . . He will be great.” In what ways will He be great? First of all, His name will be Jesus, meaning “God will save.” In other words, this child has a mission, and He seems to be connected to God. Second, He will be called the “Son of the Most High.” This is how people will know Him. “Most High” is a term used for God in the Old Testament. “He will be the Son of God,” Gabriel says, “and He will reign over the house of Jacob (Israel) forever. Of His kingdom there will be no end.” We're taken back to the promise God made to David that from his descendants kings would always be there to take care of Israel. Now we hear of a great King who is greater than any earthly king. He is forever, an eternal King, a King who has come to take over, to challenge the kingdoms of this world. He is the King above all Kings. All are to kneel before Him and pay Him allegiance. “He will be called Son of God,” Gabriel continues. His birth will be unusual, a miracle! He will be born of a virgin, as we say in our Apostles' Creed. It's difficult to comprehend, isn't it. We know how babies are made. So did Dr. Luke who recorded this for us. So did Matthew who also recorded the virgin birth. They knew full well how babies are made. Mary certainly knew how babies were made, and she asked Gabriel how this was going to happen. Listen to his answer: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, Mary.” In the Old Testament, when people were called upon by God to do great things that were way beyond their capabilities, things only God could do, God would fill them with His Spirit – the prophets, the judges, even some of the kings. You're going to be spirit-powered, Mary. “The power of the Most High will overshadow you.” We get a picture of the creation story as the Spirit of the Lord moved over the waters, over-shadowing it. God is going create something wonderful within you by His power, not by nature's power. C. S. Lewis made this wonderful statement about the virgin birth. “Jesus was conceived when God took off the glove of nature and touched Mary with His naked finger. Thus, Jesus did not evolve up and out of history.” Someone once said, “Jesus is infinite and infant.” “Therefore,” Gabriel continues, “this child to be born will be holy,” which means He is set apart for a purpose from all others. He is like no other. Gabriel finishes off by saying, “He will be called Son of God.” Amazing! I love this statement by Peter Larson:...

Our Verse: John 1:14 “So the Word became human and made his home among us.” We are all aware of the Christmas story, a miraculous event where a young virgin has a baby. We need the big story behind it all. God, the Maker of all things, launched Himself onto the planet to meet with us. Every human is wired to want that meeting. At the beginning of earth, God designed people to look up to Him. Mankind made a terrible choice, they decided to ignore God, to go their own way. Right then God the Father made a plan to fix the world, to make a new meeting. Here it is: God would become human-shaped, then, actually walk on the surface. More details- http://bit.ly/5JesusStories So.. how did God land on earth? Here it is from an early Jesus follower, Luke: Spoken to Mary: “You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus.” 1:31 and... “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God. 1:35 God used a human receiver, Mary, for His arrival on earth. He placed a supernatural seed in her womb, no human intervention. That baby is holy- His name-The Son of God. Many skeptics reject the idea of this process, but it's easily possible for God. God did this so Jesus would be fully God, He is... and fully human.. He came from the womb of Mary. God walked the earth for 33 years. Jesus fulfilled the mission, the plan of God to meet with us. When we recognize and accept God's plan to meet us, we get “Peace on earth, good will to men” Thank You God for sending Jesus. PS Enjoy Christmas Church from anywhere! Click the Links!

Mary is a Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) practitioner and acupuncturist who has been in practice for over 20 years. The vast majority of her patients have struggled with gynecological disorders, fertility challenges, and pregnancy-related issues. She is the author of Pathways to Pregnancy: Personal Stories and Practical Advice for Your Fertility Journey, and she is the founder & CEO of ALIVE Holistic Health Clinic located in downtown Toronto.  Mary’s personal experience with fertility challenges has fostered compassion and a deep respect for the families who come to her for help. Mary has seen the many faces that infertility presents, and the equally diverse pathways to pregnancy presented by conventional and complementary medicine. It is her greatest hope that by she can bring a renewed sense of possibility to infertility sufferers, and deepen their understanding of this widespread condition to the public consciousness. In today's episode, we talk about issues that interfere with pregnancy and cause fertility challenges. We also talk about the challenge for patients who have received a diagnosis of infertility. We delve into the practical ways women can move forward with hope in the face of receiving such a daunting diagnosis. Topics discussed in today's episode Find out how a diagnosis of blocked fallopian tubes shook Mary's belief system to its core and forced her to embrace Western Medicine as a complement to her Eastern philosophies and practice The myth that couples who struggle to conceive can simply "adopt" Why a diagnosis of infertility has been shown to be as stressful as a cancer diagnosis What is the "Nocebo" effect? And how can it impact women who are seeking medical support to address their fertility challenges? How to deconstruct a diagnosis of infertility and maintain hope after being told you have no options Are your eggs really "old"? What is a poor ovarian reserve? The three markers of poor ovarian reserve and what they really mean Why a high FSH level can impair your chances of having a successful IVF cycle Practical ways to reduce and manage stress without adding more to your plate? How to incorporate a mindfulness practice into your daily life How to manage the 2 week period after IVF implantation without driving yourself crazy Connect with Mary You can connect with Mary on her website and on Facebook and Twitter Resources mentioned Mary Wong (website) Alive Holistic Health | Mary Wong Pathways to Pregnancy: Personal stories and practical advice for your fertility journey FFP 088 | IVF Using Donor Eggs | Egg Donation | Infertility | Donor Egg Bank USA | Heidi Hayes FFP 074 | Resurrection Year | Maintaining Hope Through Infertility | Sheridan Voysey FFP 089 | Treating Infertility Naturally | Natural Fertility Solutions | Functional Medicine | Getting to the Root Cause | Gabriela Rosa FFP 040 | Premature Ovarian Failure at Age 28, IVF Using Donor Eggs, and Fertility Coaching | Sarah Clark Join the community! Find us on the Fertility Friday Facebook Fan Page Subscribe to the Fertility Friday Podcast on iTunes! Music Credit: Intro/Outro music Produced by J-Gantic