Podcasts about ERS

I'm excited to chat with Dr. Arnold about pediatric readiness, kids' health education, and health disparities in children. Dr. Alana J Arnold is a board-certified pediatric emergency medicine doctor, medical director, founder, and CEO of Premier Pediatric Solutions. Her work focuses on improving children's health in our community ERs and urgent cares and giving families tools to gain health literacy. Born and raised in Philly, Dr. Arnold attended Tufts University School of Medicine in Boston. She then pursued her pediatric residency in Oakland at Children's Hospital Oakland. Finally, she completed her pediatric emergency medicine fellowship at Texas Children's Hospital in Houston, the country's largest free-standing children's hospital.  She is a huge advocate for kids' health. She is leveraging tech to allow clinicians to deliver better pediatric care, even when a pediatric specialist is not on site, which occurs in most community ERs and urgent cares. Her work is critical to help care for the nearly 30 million children that pass through our ER systems each year. Connect with Dr. Arnold:  www.linktr.ee/premierpediatricsolutions --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/urcaringdocs/message

Hospital emergency rooms saw some of the most painful scenes of the pandemic: beds filled to capacity, nurses and doctors risking sickness themselves, and patients dying without their loved ones.Today, ERs are still living with the consequences of the pandemic. They face staffing challenges, patients who delayed care and arrive sicker, and the lingering emotional strain.We visit an emergency room at a hospital outside Baltimore to hear how this moment looks to the doctors and nurses who work there.In participating regions, you'll also hear a local news segment to help you make sense of what's going on in your community.Email us at considerthis@npr.org.

Today's guest is Chris Seveney Chris left his cozy top floor corner office in 2022, after 25 years working in real estate development and construction. Chris has managed over $1B in new construction during his career and has grown his note business to acquire over 500 notes. Join Sam and Chris in today's episode. -------------------------------------------------------------- [0:00] Intro [0:54] The 3 questions  [4:09] Scaling mortgage note investments [8:10] Reg A vs Reg D [11:59] Terms, issues, and mistakes [15:58] State of the market [19:07] What type of distressed debt are you buying? [19:54] Return profile  [21:02] Closing  -------------------------------------------------------------- Connect with Chris:  Linktree: https://linktr.ee/creatingwealthsimplified Website: https://7einvestments.com/ Connect with Sam: I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/ Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f -------------------------------------------------------------- Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below:   0:00:00:11 - 00:00:22:14 Chris Seveney On multifamily deals is an example. You'll see an acquisition fee, an asset management fee, a management fee and disposition fees. And you have all these fees. The way we structured it was so simple where I have a staff of nine people right now that work for me and myself. Now we don't have fees or ratios. We're all salaried employees who take a salary.   00:00:23:01 - 00:00:48:16 Intro Welcome to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate Show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.    Sam Wilson Chris left his cozy top floor corner office in 2022 after 25 years of working in real estate development and instruction. He managed over $1,000,000,000 in new construction, and he's now grown his note business to over 500 notes.   00:00:48:23 - 00:00:50:10 Sam Wilson Chris, welcome to the show.   00:00:51:13 - 00:00:54:15 Chris Seveney Sam Thanks for having me today. Glad appreciate being here.   00:00:54:21 - 00:01:03:03 Sam Wilson Absolutely. Chris The pleasure's mine. There are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90 seconds or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where you are now and how did you get there?   00:01:04:18 - 00:01:26:07 Chris Seveney So where I started, I've always been in real estate, but the tipping point for me to kind of starting my own path was when we, my wife and I went to go build our primary residence because we acted as a contractor. We see that out ourselves and that gave us a lot of equity to then pull some of that equity out to go start doing some more of our real estate components.   00:01:26:15 - 00:01:42:21 Chris Seveney So that's kind of how we got started. What was the second part of that? Where are you now? So where are we now? Like you mentioned, last year, we launched a regulation A-plus fund to raise $75 million to focus primarily on investing in distressed mortgage notes.   00:01:44:06 - 00:01:54:01 Sam Wilson That's fantastic. Okay, so you started when you did that first GC Your own home, was that before you launched in your development career or was that after?   00:01:55:03 - 00:02:15:09 Chris Seveney So it was when I was working for a developer is right after I started working for a developer. When I worked for GC, you know, you were working six days a week, 60 plus hours. You had no time for managing construction projects. Do your own thing. Then when you go to a development side, it's kind of like, you know, the the cozy side of things where all you do is scream at the GC all day long.   00:02:15:19 - 00:02:35:04 Chris Seveney And my boss at the time, super smart guy, you know, comes to me one day he goes, What are you doing for retirement? And I said, I got my 41k. And he laughed at me. He goes, Why don't you own real estate? You've been in it for 15 years. That's point time. And he had a he had five or six rentals that he had probably a portfolio at that point in time of like $5 million.   00:02:35:15 - 00:02:42:08 Chris Seveney And that gave me kind of the, you know, the start to want to go build my own real estate career.   00:02:42:24 - 00:02:58:07 Sam Wilson Got it. Got it. And so it sounds like the starting your own real estate career didn't go the traditional route. You've now since launched a reggae fund. You guys are buying distressed mortgage notes. I mean, was that the next step for you and how did you get into it?   00:02:58:12 - 00:03:19:18 Chris Seveney So yeah. So the next step actually was we were doing some fixing, I'll call it the bigger pockets BR strategy. We're buying some properties to renovate, rehab, refinance and then rent out. And we did two properties in the Washington, D.C. area where we're located and we had two little kids at the time and we were managing all this work.   00:03:19:18 - 00:03:47:05 Chris Seveney So my wife, after the second one, says, we're done. You know, it was it was just too much. And she was right. I mean, I was putting a lot of strain on us. But me being, you know, everyone calls me the squirrel and I can find anything on the Internet, you know, looking at what else I could invest in, in the challenge I was finding was, you know, the problem is trying to solve is what can I invest in that I don't have to be there within 15 minutes of getting a phone call to put an offer in on something.   00:03:48:06 - 00:04:08:24 Chris Seveney So traditional real estate kind of went out the door. So what I found was mortgage note investing. And when I found it, it actually ticked me off because I knew of private lending, but I didn't actually know you could buy distressed notes on a secondary market. So when I found out about it, I was actually a little upset, but actually drove me to want to learn more and get involved.   00:04:09:18 - 00:04:30:23 Sam Wilson Got it. I love that. It's one of those things, you know, we hear people and I hate to say this, but when someone tells me, okay, I'm a distressed mortgage note investor, I'm a note investor, I think if someone that my you know, kind of the mom and pop version of note investing, they buy, you know, five, six, seven notes a year and they hold them and, you know, parcel amount, do whatever they're going to do with those.   00:04:30:23 - 00:04:49:08 Sam Wilson You know, the various things you can do with notes. You've taken this to a very a much larger scale. I mean, launching a $75 million reggae fund is not buying 5 to 7 notes a year. So tell me, I guess when you when you mapped out your plan for this business, how did you I mean, in doing this at scale takes work?   00:04:49:08 - 00:05:04:21 Sam Wilson Because you correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think you have to have the right industry contacts. You have to have the right people that are selling those distressed notes to you, obviously bidding on probably pools of notes. Tell me just how you kind of wrap your head around that educated yourself and then said this is how we're going to go big.   00:05:05:19 - 00:05:28:06 Chris Seveney Yeah. So very unconventional of how I did this. I started out using my own money, which is conventional. I would say, or recommend. I started buying a few notes and you know, that continued to grow. And few things that I did differently were I'd be in some of these groups or membership classes and just like any aspect of real estate.   00:05:28:07 - 00:05:47:16 Chris Seveney 90% of people who are, you know, say, sitting at the table with you are window shopping. They're not even going to do it. They're just kind of wanting to see what they could do. So after I started getting a little momentum behind me, I was reaching out to those people and say, Hey, look, if this isn't something you want to do, come joint, venture with me, fund the deal.   00:05:47:16 - 00:06:04:04 Chris Seveney And you know, most people would get 5050 profits. I was giving 6040. So I was giving a little bit more. So I started to do a lot of those deals which for one on one joint ventures till I grew to a point where I, you know, wanted to do it within a fund model of a five or six.   00:06:04:20 - 00:06:26:01 Chris Seveney The first one was B, but when I said unconventional, what was unconventional about it is I knew real estate and I knew a lot of this aspect and I had some finance background. I actually went back to college, got a masters in finance and real estate and wrote my thesis in 2020 on how to raise $50 million to do a note fund.   00:06:26:11 - 00:06:49:22 Chris Seveney In my professors were private equity managers and everybody else who managed billion dollar funds. So I'm basically paying $3,000 for my you know, each class was around $3,000. So I paid 30 plus thousand dollars for my masters. But I was getting the education from people who have far exceeded, you know, anything I probably could get from somebody online.   00:06:50:03 - 00:06:56:04 Chris Seveney And most people pay that same amount in some of these training courses were a lot less a shorter period of time.   00:06:57:16 - 00:07:13:13 Sam Wilson And so you had these professors that were in the business, which is rare, I think, in the education sphere, to see these people that are practicing what they're preaching. But these these professors that you had to look at your plan and say, hey, here's how you can do it better. Were they kind of catalysts that help you refine it?   00:07:13:18 - 00:07:14:22 Sam Wilson What was that process like?   00:07:16:04 - 00:07:49:11 Chris Seveney Yeah, really helped me refine it in regards to, you know, as an there's a big difference from, like you said, the mom and pops and buying a few and getting to that scale of where you need to get to to get more of like an institution on to two fronts. One is buying the assets because once you hit, I'd say like a $10 million threshold of capital, that opens up like a completely different realm for you from the type of people who will want to invest with you.   00:07:49:11 - 00:08:09:21 Chris Seveney You a million or $2 million check. But if you only have $1,000,000, nobody wants to be 50% of your funding partner. A large part, people like to be a small component, but also from US asset acquisition. You see a lot more deals when you're telling people, Hey, I want to go buy two or $3 million right now versus somebody who, Hey, I want to buy 50,000.   00:08:10:23 - 00:08:27:06 Sam Wilson Right, right. Okay. So you guys said, look, we're going to launch a reggae fund. Let's get let's get into that. Why reggae versus reggae D? How did you end up deciding to do this particular model? And what are some of the challenges maybe that you faced along the way?   00:08:28:07 - 00:09:05:20 Chris Seveney Yeah. So the first challenge with not investing is you are the lender, so you're not taking on any debt. So it's good because your risk profile is very different than, say, a multifamily investor. And a lot of our investors came from investing in multifamily or other self-storage, other types of deals. That challenge is, you know, they can go get it that time, you know, getting 15, 18%, you know, in ERs on these other deals because they're levered, you can leverage it in 3% in 65% leverage to enhance those returns.   00:09:06:12 - 00:09:29:01 Chris Seveney Note investing you can't compete with that. If anybody, you know, saying, I'm going to get you as a note fund 18%, I'd be interested to see the types of assets you're buying because your risk profile is so high, because you know the investor money is your leverage. So what the reason and to answer the question of the regulation A is regulation A does get qualified by the SCC.   00:09:29:08 - 00:09:59:10 Chris Seveney So it's a much higher cost. You know, I'd say to get qualified is call it $125,000 compared to a five or six C, which you can get done for 1020 grand. But when you look at your audience, who are you marketing to when you're doing A five or six C and in real estate, you're typically marketing to other real estate investors who are accredited, which is, you know, 1% to 2% of the population pick a number of regulation a year.   00:09:59:16 - 00:10:18:12 Chris Seveney You know, you're fishing in the entire ocean because all you have to do is be above 18. You know, our minimum investment is 20 $500. You know, name A five or six C that you can get in the door for 20 $500. You can't. So, you know, we want to open up that pool significantly to other investors.   00:10:18:12 - 00:10:47:19 Sam Wilson Got it. So you said, all right, look, we're going to plop down 125 grand. We're going to launch a regulation, a fund. When you did that and I know you had some relevant industry experience up to that point in time, joint venture ing, buying, some notes, maybe buying I don't know how many at a time, but what do you do to really I guess there's a be the wrong term for it, but maybe just be the right one to give your investors confidence, especially your large check investors in a fund like this that, hey, we can do this at scale and we know what we're doing.   00:10:49:01 - 00:11:09:09 Chris Seveney Yeah. So prior to writing the regulation, A had actually done five other funds. Okay. And, but those funds, the way we did them were, you know, a lot of people just want to go out and say, okay, I want to go raise $20 million into a fund. You know, I'm an engineer. So, you know, I like the, you know, test improve different theories and so forth.   00:11:10:11 - 00:11:35:24 Chris Seveney So we did several different ones and we changed the terms. You know, we had one fund that was like a 5050 split with no preferred return, no management fee. We did one with a preferred return with a management fee and some split. So we did. We did one two years, we did one three years, you know, so we did these to gauge, okay, what is the best for both the investor and the sponsor?   00:11:36:09 - 00:11:54:12 Chris Seveney Because what you don't want to do is go raise $50 million or a large sum of money and have the wrong terms. You know, that can be catastrophic. So we did several different, you know, theories and how we were testing things. And each one of those funds, you know, again, past performance is in a future indicator of success.   00:11:54:18 - 00:11:58:14 Chris Seveney But each one, you know, we met or exceeded what we were looking to deliver to our investors.   00:11:59:09 - 00:12:18:21 Sam Wilson Right. Right. And that makes that makes a lot of sense. Let's talk about those terms a little bit, because if someone actually was reading a book here recently and they were at one point that the author made, was that as a new fund manager, that a lot of times what he would see is that the sponsors would end up not paying themselves enough.   00:12:18:21 - 00:12:39:06 Sam Wilson They do one or two things. Either it was either, you know, incorrectly weighted to the sponsor and or incorrectly weighted to the investor to where if you raised a $30 million fund, maybe the sponsor didn't build in enough really fees in there and things to make it worth them staying the course and or you know, it just it just was.   00:12:39:07 - 00:12:48:13 Sam Wilson So tell me how you've kind of thought through that and what what you found were the right the right terms and the wrong terms along the way? What were some of the things you did? Well, some things you that maybe you've corrected.   00:12:49:17 - 00:13:12:16 Chris Seveney Yeah. So one thing that is weird, you know, doing these other funds, there was one offering that we gave to have a pref and had too low of a management fee. So I essentially was managing this fund for two and a half years for pretty much nothing till the end, which, you know, I used to work, I was still working W2 at the at the time, but it was a lesson learned.   00:13:12:16 - 00:13:36:04 Chris Seveney Did I complain about it? Nope. That I, you know, change any of the terms. Now, it was a lesson learned. So I knew on the next one on the regulation offering, you know, I took what I learned from those other ones, but I also kept things extremely simple. You know, a multifamily deals is an example. You'll see an acquisition fee, an asset management fee, a management fee, a disposition fees.   00:13:36:04 - 00:14:00:05 Chris Seveney And you have all these fees. The way we structured it was, you know, so simple where I have a staff of nine people right now that work for me and myself. Now we don't have these ratios. We're all salaried employees to take a salary. So that's an expense that, you know, is the font, you know, we want the fund knows, hey, here's the expense that way.   00:14:00:12 - 00:14:21:00 Chris Seveney You know, the people who work for the company myself, okay, you know, we have to get paid somehow. Nobody should do anything for free. If they do, you have to be careful because if things go wrong, they may just want to walk because they're not making any money anyways. You know, for us we have a preferred return to the investors and then on the back end, that's where we get, you know, the back end side of things.   00:14:21:00 - 00:14:36:18 Chris Seveney So that's our incentive to want to do very well on the offering. And the same token, hey, look, you know, we're still getting paid that salary, which again keeps it very simple to make sure, oh, did I underestimate fees that I overestimate fees? You know, I don't have to worry about that.   00:14:37:02 - 00:14:59:01 Sam Wilson Right. Right now. That makes a lot of sense. I like that. Yeah. And that's something that we also have been working on here recently and even deals I'm involved in as a passive investor, it gets really confusing and I understand this where it's like, Oh, okay, well, we've got a, you know, a 7030 split and then up to a 15 IRR and then beyond that it goes down to 60, 42, at 89, it goes to 5050 and that's it, this extra hurdle.   00:14:59:01 - 00:15:11:23 Sam Wilson And you're like, okay, just tell me when there's an AC H please. In my account and I'll just trust you're doing the right thing because I know I just, I turn it off.   00:15:11:23 - 00:15:33:21 Chris Seveney So that's, you know, that's a great point because a few things with note investing. One is a lot of people don't understand the process of what you do. So there's an education component. And then when we're raising money, we can't take a multifamily apartment building, say, boom, here it is on marketing brochure. This is what you're investing in now.   00:15:34:01 - 00:15:54:12 Chris Seveney You're we're investing in blind pools, meaning we go raise the money, turn around and then invest it. So the investors basically really have to know their sponsor and trust us to do the right thing. So if we made it with all these other hurdles and everything, it would you know, it would be impossible. So we kept it simple of, hey, monthly distribution, monthly dividend.   00:15:54:17 - 00:15:58:03 Chris Seveney Here it is every month based off of, you know, this annual interest rate.   00:15:58:14 - 00:16:17:24 Sam Wilson Right. That makes a lot of sense. Let's let's talk a little bit maybe about that. The pool that you that these these pools of notes that you guys are going out and buying what is the what's what's the temperature of the water? I know it's probably changed in the last ten years, you know, from from one extreme to the other.   00:16:17:24 - 00:16:23:05 Sam Wilson But like what? What's that look like right now?   00:16:23:05 - 00:16:51:21 Chris Seveney Similar to real estate, you know, I started buying notes and Dow 20, I think end of 2016, I believe I was losers, you know, same thing. Real estate. If I could have bought a lot more back then, I would have, you know, based on pricing over the last several years has gone up significantly, many different factors. One is now properties now have a lot more equity in them than they did previously.   00:16:51:21 - 00:17:17:00 Chris Seveney So that reduces your potential risk, which and then of course, you know, impacts returns and valuations. There's been a lot less product. We are at historic lows for the amount of distressed debt around the country, mainly because of two things. One is the equity, the jobs market and of course, you know, government intervention, which, you know, besides just having loan programs to help those in need.   00:17:17:00 - 00:17:27:02 Chris Seveney Also during COVID, you know, a significant expenditure by the government to, you know, keep people who couldn't work to keep them employed or keep money flowing to them.   00:17:27:23 - 00:17:34:07 Sam Wilson Right. Do you expect that deal flow to increase? Decrease? What are you guys gearing up for?   00:17:35:18 - 00:17:59:19 Chris Seveney Yeah. So we have seen in quarter four and quarter one of quarter for 2022 and quarter one of 23. We were seeing about, I want to say roughly about $300 million of assets come across our desk each quarter. We've already seen in the first three weeks of quarter two of this year, almost that amount come across our desk.   00:18:00:16 - 00:18:09:04 Sam Wilson Wow. So in that is that is that is strictly distressed debt or that is a combination of distressed and performing and all the other stuff that goes into that.   00:18:09:16 - 00:18:48:09 Chris Seveney It's a combination, but it's been a combination. What we are absolutely seeing upticks in are the short term, you know, bridge debt financing that was either fixed and flip lenders. DC And there's we're seeing office loans of course because those are coming to maturity that can't get refinanced residential. What we're also seeing a lot of and what's making a comeback is the last several years there have been no call it secondary position lines which are typically lines of credit because not many people were getting them or whatnot.   00:18:48:19 - 00:19:06:17 Chris Seveney What we are seeing is an abundance of recently is people who took money out during 2020 or 2021, took lines of credit out to pay those credit card bills, and now they're back in default on the line of credit because they racked up that credit card debt again.   00:19:07:08 - 00:19:22:02 Sam Wilson Right? Yeah. That's that's really interesting. And I guess this brings up one more question that we haven't clarified yet in this fund. What is the type of distressed debt you're buying? Is it commercial? Is it residential? What are you guys focusing on?   00:19:23:09 - 00:19:53:10 Chris Seveney Yeah, great question. Primarily it's residential. We have the ability to do some small commercial, you know, some small multi-family as well. But we like to balance our portfolio to be about 70% non-performing, 30% performing a to give some cash flow coming in the door on some of those assets. And then the nonperforming, of course, also, you know, is our bread and butter, but typically, you know, the loans are single family residential.   00:19:54:01 - 00:20:07:22 Sam Wilson Got it. Very, very cool. And I got one last question. Maybe you can and maybe you can't answer this on the air. I don't know. But what's an expected return profile for a fund like this? Investing in distressed debt? Like, what's that look like for the for the average investor?   00:20:08:15 - 00:20:35:02 Chris Seveney You. Yeah yeah we can. So right now for our investors, you know, our target returns for them are 8 to 11% for the investor and that's out you know that is to the investor now returns on notes are slightly higher but when you again have to factor in, you know, your fees and everything that you know, salaries, payroll, you know, all that stuff, you know, that's and again, it goes back to that comment of no leverage.   00:20:35:02 - 00:20:56:08 Chris Seveney That's the, you know, the main driver of that fund. And when people look at some real estate, investors may say, oh, my God, that's you know, I won't get out of bed for 15%. You know, for us, we look back at, you know, you have to always look at and this is what I always tell people. You have to always look at the risk involved with the return that's being provided.   00:20:56:16 - 00:21:02:10 Chris Seveney You know, it's not just look at the number for what they say they're going to get. What type of risk are you taking by investing in that deal?   00:21:02:20 - 00:21:37:01 Sam Wilson Right. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, and I hear a lot of investor sentiment and and for good cause and it makes me happy and it kind of speaks to my heart, which is, you know, more of the focus on capital preservation moving into that stuff that continues to produce and then gotten away from the I think investors while we've had a good run and everybody has had a great not and I can't speak for the whole every investor profile type but certainly seeing that shift more towards all right, batten down the hatches, let's find stuff that just plods along versus looking for that, looking for that home run deal.   00:21:37:01 - 00:21:58:02 Sam Wilson So that's very, very cool. Chris, I've learned a lot from you here today, everything from the challenges and the benefits of raising a reggae fund, the type of deals you guys are buying, how you guys are keeping deals, simple. Just kind of what your history was and how you actually got into this space. I think it's absolutely cool if our listeners want to get in touch with you and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?   00:21:58:21 - 00:22:17:20 Chris Seveney Yeah. So they can go to our website seven E Investments, which is the number seven, then the letter E Investments dot com. Or they can email me Chris at seven E investments dot com. You can find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, my last name is which I'm sure will be in the show notes is not a very common last name.   00:22:17:20 - 00:22:27:24 Chris Seveney So you Google me. I, I'm one of two people and they have the same name. I have a cousin in Houston, but he's in a completely different asset class in business. So I'm the only one in real estate.   00:22:28:10 - 00:22:39:24 Sam Wilson Fantastic. And for those of you who are just listening that listening, that is seven and why so Chris 70. That's how you spell his name and then it is seven E, the number seven, the letter E investments dot com. Is that right.   00:22:40:20 - 00:22:41:05 Chris Seveney Correct.   00:22:41:11 - 00:22:46:14 Sam Wilson Cool. Well, make sure all that is there in the show notes. Chris, thank you again for coming on the show today. I certainly appreciate it.   00:22:47:15 - 00:22:48:12 Chris Seveney Thank you for having me.   00:22:48:24 - 00:23:10:09 Sam Wilson Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate Podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantasy tech help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories.   00:23:10:09 - 00:23:14:11 Sam Wilson So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.  

On this week's episode, Stephen Frothingham, Editor in Chief of Bicycle Retailer & Industry News at Outside, Inc, joins Randall to share his unique perspective on bicycle industry dynamics in general and the bike shop and OEM ecosystem in particular. Steve is an industry veteran who approaches his work with a warmth and curiosity we've long appreciated, and his reporting continues to serve as an influential resource for all of us who work in the space. Episdoe sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (Promo code THEGRAVELRIDE for 15% off) Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the podcast, I'm going to hand the microphone over to my co-host Randall Jacobs. Who's got Steven Frothingham editor and chief of bicycle retailer and industry news on the show to discuss his unique perspective on bicycle industry dynamics. The general bike shop and OEM ecosystem in particular, Steve is an industry veteran who approaches his work with warmth and curiosity that is so appreciated. His reporting continues to serve as an influential resource to everyone who works in the bicycle retail space. I think you'll get a lot out of this episode, learning a little bit more of the ins and outs of the industry as it all trickles down and has an effect. On us as riders. Before we jump in, I do need to thank this week. Sponsor, dynamic cyclist. The team over at dynamic cyclist has created a video library of stretching and strengthening techniques. Specifically designed around cyclists. The founders, cyclists themselves found a niche in developing this content as it didn't exist before their efforts. They've created hundreds and hundreds of different stretching routines to focus on different parts of the body that affect your performance as a cyclist. It's something for me that has become super important. I've been following the routine since around November last year, really specifically to work on lower back strengthening, but it found that I'm much more disciplined knowing that I've got these 15 to 20 minute episodes always available to me, both streaming from their website or also available from the app. I encourage you to give it a try. They've got a free one week trial, and if it works for you, They're offering gravel ride podcast listeners, a 15% discount off monthly or annual plans. It's quite affordable. I think it's less than a hundred dollars for an entire year's worth of programming. I expect like me I'll dip in and out of it with a heavier focus in the winter, but trying to stay on it, as I realized that stretching needs to be part of my routine. If I'm going to maintain my love and active cycling lifestyle, particularly on the gravel bike, where we all tend to get roughed up a bit. Use the code, the gravel ride to get that 15% off, just put it in the coupon code box@dynamiccyclists.com. When you check out, If that sounds like it's up your alley, I hope you give it a try again. They've got that free one week trial. So why the hell not. With that said, I'm going to hand the microphone off to my co-host Randall Jacobs. And jump right into this conversation with Steven Frothingham. [00:03:11] Randall: You're an old hand in the bike industry in the journalism space. Give us a little bit of background about that. [00:03:17] steve: , know, I started at Brain, I think I was the first editor hired back in think 92. And then I left and worked for the Associated Press twice and then came back into the bike industry to work for, be News for a few years. Uh, left them, went back to Brain, and then the company that owned Be News bought Brain. I ended up back in that same company again, which became outside. So it, yeah, it kind of feels like, uh, even though I don't work for ERs again, I feel like I'm back with the same crew. Uh, I literally was in the same, same desk, same office for a little while. So, uh, that, that seems to be, seems to be the pattern in my career here. [00:03:55] Randall: Just to clarify for our listeners, brain is bicycle retailer where you are currently, uh, editor-in-chief. Correct. [00:04:01] steve: Mm-hmm. [00:04:03] Randall: Tell us a little bit about the nature of that publication. So what role does it serve in the industry? [00:04:09] steve: well, when we started it in 92, you know, the full name is Bicycle Retailer and Industry News. And, uh, the, and was important back then because the, um, the other trade magazines, and believe it or not, there were three others back then were all print magazines. We were the fourth. Um, but they had this real focus on. Kind of this old school dealer thing, like, you know, we're gonna profile this retailer this month. We're gonna do a story on, know, uh, how to hire kids for the summer. We're gonna do a story about how to display your tires. Um, and we're not really gonna write about the industry, the supplier side. So we came along and we were bicycle retailer and industry news. And we used to kinda joke that what we're doing is reporting. We're telling the retailers what the, uh, suppliers are doing to them this month. Um, which is maybe a little bit too cynical, but we, we reported on what the industry was doing. We reported the news of what the supplier side was doing for the most part, which is what the retailers want to read. Um, most retailers, they might say that they'd like to read a story about how to merchandise their tires, but that's kind of broccoli. You know what they were, what really wanna, wanna have is the, uh, the steak and potatoes of, uh, finding out what one of their suppliers, uh, just bought another company or just went bankrupt or just switched factories in Taiwan or, or something like that. And that's the kinda stuff that the, uh, the other titles we're not doing back in the nineties, which is why, uh, this is gonna bring out the competitive bike racer jerk in me. But we, we put the other three out of business in three or four years, I think. Um, it wasn't very long before Brain was the only, uh, industry title in the US and, um, to some extent we're still doing the same thing. Obviously we've had to adapt to social media and the internet, which didn't exist when, when we started the magazine. But, um, we're still doing the same thing. We, we focus on news and, um, You know, we like to do some, we like to profile important retailers once in a while, but for the most part, uh, we still report on what the supplier side is doing with the knowledge that most of our readers are, uh, are retailers independent? [00:06:37] Randall: I actually hadn't appreciated that you were on the founding team for bicycle retailer. So can you share a little bit more about that and who else was involved and how that came to be? [00:06:47] steve: Well, I didn't have an investment unfortunately. Uh, I was, I think I was 22 years old or something, so I was just the first hired gun there. Uh, mark, who still writes for us, was the founding editor, uh, and a partner early on. There was another partner named Bill Sandler, who, uh, passed away quite a few years ago now. Uh, so Mark and Bill were, were really the founders um, Uh, I think they hired a, uh, an office lady named Kathy, and then they hired me. And, uh, that was kind of the start of the fun and, um, you know, and then the company went through various different ownerships, uh, some of which happened when, after I left, when I was, uh, outside the bike world for while. Uh, sometimes I forget it went through three or four different ownerships. Uh, when I came back it was owned by Nielsen of the famous Nielsen Ratings Nielsen, which, uh, owned, uh, trade shows including interbike. And, uh, we were actually operated by the National Bicycle Dealers Association, the nonprofit dealer trade group. Um, so we were owned by Nielsen, which was kind of renamed as Emerald Expositions. Uh, so I think my paycheck came from, now my paycheck came from the Mbda a you know, we went through quite a few years of being run by a very small nonprofit trade association. And then, and then it changed hands. Uh, M BDA a had some financial problems and, uh, we were not exactly helping things. So, uh, we got handed off to, uh, what was then called Pocket Outdoor Media, the company that owned Velo News. They owned Velo Press Draft, fleet Magazine. At that point, uh, Robin Thurston was a minority investor, I believe, in pocket outdoor media. And then, uh, you know, about a year or so after, uh, brain became part of that group, became the ceo, um, started raising money to buy a whole bunch of titles, which you've probably heard about, including Pink Bike Cycling Tips, um, some, uh, some bike events in Colorado. And then eventually the big purchase was raising the money to buy outside Magazine. And, um, company Pocket Outdoor Media was, I think, I think Robin had actually hired a marketing company to come up with a new name for Pocket Outdoor Media, because people thought Pocket Outdoor Media was a billboard company. Uh, and the sales reps didn't like that. Uh, so they were, you know, doing the marketing thing of, of bouncing all these ideas off the wall, coming, trying to come up with a new idea and a new name. And then after they bought Outside magazine, they're like, well, why don't we just, you know, renamed the company outside? we became outside, which things have been moving very quickly. It's, you know, it's a big change for me moving from for a very tiny, little underfunded non-profit trade association from bicycle shops N bda, to working for this multi billion dollar startup basically a tech company. Um, change. And that's why the, the time, you know, I mean, I think back it seems like, you know, a decade ago, but it's only been like two and half years. [00:10:23] Randall: So Robin Thurston is the current c e o of outside the group. And he previously founded is it, uh, map my. [00:10:31] steve: Map my ride, map my run my companies, sold to Under Armor. [00:10:35] Randall: I think that was like 160 million acquisition or something. I remember having this number offhand because it was part of my pitch deck for another company that I was trying to raise money for. It's like, oh here's a comparison point of this company that was acquired in the space. [00:10:50] steve: Yeah, I mean map where I was kind of ahead of the curve with doing some of the stuff that Strava's doing now, and uh, now and outside. We have Gaia, which is a, mapping app that's primarily used by hikers and skiers. And then trail Forks, which was developed by Pink Bike as a mapping app mostly for mountain bikers. [00:11:12] Randall: It's quite well regarded of, of seen in some of the forums. People are very keen on that particular application in the quality of the routes there [00:11:19] steve: are really good. They do have their niches. I use Gaia for backcountry skiing and it, it works really well. And it's, uh, uh, you know, we could go way down a rabbit hole, but you know, why I choose to use Gaia when I'm skiing and why I use trail forks when I'm mountain biking and why I use, don't know what else when I'm road biking. I don't know. But, you know, each has its own, uh, its own advantages in different spaces. So, yeah. Robin, made his fortune, I think, fair to say, selling that company to, uh, under Armour. And then he worked for Under Armour for a while. I think he was the Chief Technology Officer at Under Armor, uh, left and did some other stuff, and then eventually came back to this group. [00:12:02] Randall: So you started when you were 22, essentially first hire for bicycle retailer, this fledgling industry magazine with a particular point of view that resonated with dealers. What drew you to this particular space? You studied journalism in college. Were you an avid cyclist? [00:12:18] steve: Yeah. All that. Yeah. Uh, I was a cyclist. From day one, I started in B BMX when I was a little turd. Uh, I'm definitely, I'm totally of that age now where, you know, I'm 55 now and I go to the shows and I see these retro BMX bikes that some of the companies are doing. My light up, oh, there's that red that I wanted when I was, now I buy it. I've resisted so far, but yeah, I started in bmx. I did mountain bike races back in the eighties and road racing and, and, uh, and yeah, then I, I got a journalism degree and I did work completely outside the bike world for about 10 years, the Associated Press, covering presidential politics in New Hampshire where the presidential primary is a big deal. So that was really fun. I think I covered three or four primaries in New Hampshire. Plus the usual AP stuff of plane crashes and lost hikers and syrup and lost mooses and stuff like that. [00:13:18] Track 1: Standard, Northeast Fair. [00:13:19] steve: Yeah. Typical New Hampshire stuff. [00:13:21] Track 1: And remind me where you grew up. [00:13:24] steve: in New England. Uh, I was born just a little north of where you are in Salisbury, Massachusetts. And, uh, my family moved up into New Hampshire when I was a teenager. And then when I came back, when I worked for the Associated Press, I lived in Wolfborough, New Hampshire for about 10 years. [00:13:38] Track 1: So you and I when we chat tend to go off in various tangents so, where would you like to go? Or, or we can start with the email that you sent me yesterday about shaman cues. [00:13:49] steve: yeah. I could interview you on that. What do you know? [00:13:52] Track 1: Well, you're the one, the inside line. Yeah. You saw the press release. [00:13:56] steve: the inside line yet. You know, I'm just starting my research and I'm, I'm going to Taiwan next week, so hopefully I'll learn a lot more over there. But, it looks like a fairly significant development, this cues thing. I was sitting through a, I think it was an hour long video recording from Shaman about it yesterday. And, I got antsy halfway through and started calling people and emailing people, and, uh, video was moving too slowly. So like, I need some more need. I need to check in with some people around the industry here to see what they think. [00:14:27] Track 1: For those listening, shaman released a new, not just group set, but family of group sets on their kind of entry to entry, mid-level. And, it's significant for reasons that go beyond simply, here's some new parts. They have a reputation for using constantly varying standards and interfaces and pull ratios, which is the ratio of cable pull to, gear shifting. so how much cable pulls results in how much movement of the derailer constantly varying that, not just year to year, but from group to group in order to avoid cross compatibility with third party components and even within their own groups so that brands don't mix and match. Say you want a higher end quote unquote, set of levers connected to a lower injury derail because you don't see the value in the higher end derailer. Well, they preclude that by adjusting the pull ratios from group to group. And so what they've done with cues is make it such. The pull ratio is the same across all the groups, even with different speeds. And the thing that the major differentiator between the different levels is the number of years. the cog spacing in the back is the same. , and I think that that's quite significant. and it signals something too. I think it's very much in favor of riders. And it helps shops as well. I think it helps the industry more generally, but it's also indicative of a shift in the power dynamic in the bike industry. , in many ways is the new shaman, they're in the ascendant. They have, , a number of standards that they have put out there that have gotten adoption, that they have defended through patents and, in some cases, litigation and so I, I view it in the context of, innovation and competitiveness in the bike industry. [00:16:09] steve: Yeah, that makes sense. I think even Shaman used the word realistic, meaning that the new groups, they like to say that the technology that makes them special is in the cogs. Not in the chain. not so much in the crank set or the derailer. which allows mix and match so if somebody wants to spec a cassette, whether it's, Nine, 10 or 11 speed with a different crank, with a different chain, it'll still work okay, because there's nothing, it doesn't require any kind of special chain and the, the magic isn't in the chain. It's in the cassettes. So yeah, I think it's more realistic. I mean, obviously the development of this began before the pandemic and the part shortage that was through the pandemic. But, what happened in the pandemic with all these, new third party, fourth party parts coming up, getting a second look, people taking a second look at, whether it's micro shift or, uh, tetra breaks or whatever. Anything they can get. this really kind of seals the deal. This kind of tells you that, , For the next few years, we're probably gonna see more and more of these mixed groups, at least at the lower price. this is all below 1 0 5 on the road, below Dior, 12 speed or 11 speed on the mountain bike side. So everything that was cheaper than Dior and down on the mountain bike, everything that was cheaper than 1 0 5 is now queues [00:17:39] Randall: Which is to say en entry level to, uh, lower mid-level stuff, which is also good stuff. They have, clutch derails 11 speed. It does look to be quality components. [00:17:49] steve: Yep. [00:17:50] Track 1: Yeah. [00:17:50] steve: it's not the electric shifting, it's not the 12 speed. [00:17:52] Track 1: Oh, of course not. No. That, that stuff's still locked down. So, um, in fact, uh, [00:17:58] steve: is a di two group as part of this, as the, um, more, more for the mountain bike, E mountain bike group, there's a DI two. [00:18:06] Track 1: presumably sharing a battery, I haven't dived into that yet. Um, [00:18:11] steve: the one that has the uh, uh, the front freewheeling system and the antilock brakes that they launched at Eurobike last year. [00:18:18] Track 1: got it. [00:18:19] steve: Yeah. [00:18:20] Track 1: Yeah, it's, it's interesting. You, you'll, you may recall that in the past I was looking to, uh, create an open platform for bicycle electronics, and. And was trying to corral the support of that. Um, all those third parties that, that Taiwan vendor base that was shut out of the theam shaman duopoly. Um, I think, uh, probably a little bit before its time. Uh, certainly the, the appetite wasn't there for investments. Um, there was, there was interest, but not in, not any investment dollars coming in from the Taiwan side at that time. Uh, but since then we've seen, I mean, electronic is, well now you have a protocol that you can lock down and so you don't have to vary. It used to be that you vary pull ratios or some sort of mechanical, mechanical interface between components. Now you lock down the communication protocol and the power grid, and in that way you, you constrain interoperability between components from third parties. . Uh, and then you have a lot of patents around the grifter, which is, um, I would argue the, the center, the nexus of power in the bicycle industry, um, is arguably the road grifter, the road brake shift lever. And with it now, the, you know, the, the cas and, uh, you know, with electronic, the electronic protocol, power grid, things like that. Because if you control, you know, even if you just control all, you've patented every single way that you can make a lever swing, [00:19:47] steve: Right. [00:19:48] Track 1: and you know, and that, and then now you control this lever, well, that lever dictates that the caliper has to be from the same. Producer as well, because of safety reasons. You can't mix and match a caliper with a different hydraulic brake system. And then for the electronic, same deal, you know, it controls like you, you just have a closed protocol and nobody else can connect with that. And now you control the interfaces between the levers, the cas, the derails, um, and the bike itself. And now you can dictate, you know, we, we want this particular break interface. And so we see, you know, uh, flat mounts and so on. We see the new universal derail your hangar, uh, that STR introduced, which I haven't, I haven't gone deep on the patent yet, but I, I wonder, do you know if that precludes other companies from attaching a derailer in the same way if they, if they forego that universal hangar? [00:20:45] steve: No, I think Sharon's being pretty open with, with giving licenses to it, but I dunno about other third party. I mean, and at what point are we gonna have another, you know, swam shaman lawsuit, like from back in the eighties or nineties, whenever that was, that the bundling, you know? So at what point did the electronic, um, protocols become open source because of an antitrust law? The antitrust lawsuit? I think it's unlikely. Cause I don't know who would challenge 'em at this point. [00:21:18] Track 1: it's, uh, the bike co. [00:21:20] steve: you got something planned. [00:21:21] Track 1: Um, you know, we're, we're a tiny little blip on, on the grander, um, bike industry and, uh, you know, [00:21:29] steve: 1991. [00:21:30] Track 1: yeah. Well, so is it, is it true or, or answer this however you like? Um, I have, I wasn't around, um, for. At the time that that was happening. And so I get, I have second in hand information from people who were there or were adjacent to it. And then I have what I've read, but my understanding is, um, so was originally grip shift. Grip shift had a different way, uh, twisting the grip on a flat bar lever to shift a rear dera and Shao would try to preclude compatibility by again, changing the pull ratios so that Sam's grip shift wouldn't work with their deras. But then also by having these bundling deals where they go to a bike company, an o e m, uh, original equipment manufacturer. So in this case, like thesis is a, my company is an o e em specializes an no e em truck as no em, and would say, okay, you can buy these components individually, but if you buy the complete group set I e you don't buy's thing, then you get a 20% discount. I think is, is what it was. [00:22:35] steve: Could be. [00:22:36] Track 1: yeah, and there was an antitrust suit that STR filed against Shaman, um, and STR one. And as I understand it, that essentially funded Sam's early rise. That's the reason why we have STR in many ways. [00:22:51] steve: all. I mean, I think there's some other money behind [00:22:53] Track 1: Mm-hmm. [00:22:54] steve: uh, yeah, that's always been sort of the, uh, the, uh, the urban myth. I don't know the, the STR used that money to go out and, you know, buy all, all the things that they've bought. Rock shocks, true native, um, zip [00:23:11] Track 1: Mm-hmm. [00:23:12] steve: whatever. And, uh, sax, which nobody really remembers now, but that was a pretty significant purchase. Uhs, not Richard Sax the, uh, frame builder from Connecticut, but, uh, sax of Germany, which, uh, made all the internal hubs and also made derailers and stuff, [00:23:29] Track 1: And chains too. Right? Because I think. [00:23:31] steve: chains, um, became s chains, which became Ram chains. Um, [00:23:37] Track 1: are still made in Portugal, I believe. [00:23:39] steve: I think so, [00:23:40] Track 1: Yeah. [00:23:41] steve: so yeah, they, they acquired that factory. Haven't, you know, chain factory is no small thing. And, um, anyway, that's always been the, you know, um, the rumor Yeah. Is that they used that cash settlement or, or judgment from Shaman to fund those. Uh, I don't know how true that is. Like I said, I know that there is some other money behind Swam and there still is. Um, some of those companies that they bought were, uh, pretty distressed [00:24:12] Track 1: Mm-hmm. [00:24:13] steve: You know, rock Jocks had had an IPO that, uh, were living at the top of the world there for a couple years [00:24:19] Track 1: The mountain bike. The mountain bike. Boom. [00:24:22] steve: Yeah. And then that kind of crashed and that's about when, when into the Suspension Fork business. [00:24:28] Track 1: Yeah. [00:24:30] steve: So they've been pretty savvy about the, uh, the acquisitions they made Mo most of which were back, back in the nineties. Although, what have they bought recently? They bought, [00:24:40] Track 1: Hammerhead. [00:24:42] steve: hammerhead. [00:24:43] Track 1: Yeah. [00:24:44] steve: one. [00:24:44] Track 1: Yeah. [00:24:45] steve: Yeah. And, uh, and the Power Meter company. I don't, the power tab, which they kinda put [00:24:51] Track 1: cork. [00:24:52] steve: then, [00:24:52] Track 1: Cork, um, was power meters. Um, [00:24:55] steve: power Tap, which they bought from cs, [00:24:58] Track 1: oh, that's right. [00:24:59] steve: what was [00:25:00] Track 1: Uh, shocks. [00:25:02] steve: Jacquez [00:25:03] Track 1: Yeah. [00:25:04] steve: and uh, what was the other one I was gonna say they bought something else. Oh, time pedals. [00:25:14] Track 1: Hmm. So that really gives them, you know, a lot of different, um, components and IP that they can then, uh, interconnect through that. The access, uh, protocol, which is a closed, I believe, ZigBee based, um, protocol. Um, and so, you know, getting back to, you know, open versus closed standards and ecosystems and things like that, um, it seems to be the trend in the industry as, as always to, um, to have walled gardens. [00:25:41] steve: Yeah. And that's been fun. You know, it was fun to see when, when Hammerhead, was, had had some di I two integration that Shaman shut him down [00:25:53] Track 1: Yep. [00:25:54] steve: on after Bottom, which was, um, some pretty good industry gossip right there. Um, but yeah, I mean, everybody, it's been really fun speculating about what's gonna happen, you know, with RAM owning, uh, you know, the power meter company owning a pedal company, owning a, you know, power tap, which made, which used to make power meter pedals. Um, and then owning a, a head unit GPS company on top of that. And then, like you said, the whole integration with access and, uh, it's pretty fun. [00:26:26] Track 1: Yeah, it's the full stack in a way. I mean, [00:26:28] steve: them battling, you know, setting up this not only with Shaman, but with, with, uh, with Fox Factory also. [00:26:38] Track 1: I'm waiting to, for, it seems very natural that a next step for them would to be, would be to buy, say a, a company that makes home trainers or even a company that does training software that, um, they might not want to go direct head-to-head with Swift, cuz Wif has such a dominant position in that space and they don't want to alienate them or get shut off of that platform. But, um, it seems like a natural next step to get into this burgeoning home cycling, uh, space, which granted has. Tapered off a little bit since, you know, post pandemic, but I think is still, you're, you know, there's a whole, there's a whole range of cyclists who primarily ride at home and are doing competitions in virtual worlds, and I don't think that that's going to change as the technology gets better. [00:27:22] steve: Yeah. [00:27:24] Track 1: Yeah. [00:27:24] steve: Yeah, that would make sense. I'm sure there's been all sorts of conversations and there's been a couple brands that have come and gone, um, that, uh, you know, maybe, uh, ceramic has kind of hit its lip and said, no, we're, we're not gonna bid on that one. Or we're not gonna, we're not gonna overpay for that one. I don't know. But, you know, you can look at the, the number of indoor brands that have, uh, had financial problems in the last, uh, year and a half, and, uh, even once before that, that just disappeared. Um, have you seen a kinetic trainer on the market in a couple years? I. [00:28:02] Track 1: Yeah. So what else do you see happening in the bike industry? Um, so obviously parts shortages were the big story during the pandemic. Now we have, uh, parts being, you know, liquidated through various channels and presumably is that's going to accelerate, uh, post Taipei show coming up in, uh, in Taiwan in, uh, the end of March [00:28:25] steve: Yeah, I think so. I think there's still some, some shortages I hear on the road bike component side. I guess you'd know more about that than, than I would. Um, [00:28:34] Track 1: saying group sets or. [00:28:37] steve: yeah, and, and the bikes that those group sets. Hang on. You know, I think, um, know, if you talk to dealers, it's, uh, yeah, they have all the $900 mountain bikes. They can, they can eat, uh, or even I think the 1500, $1,900 bikes, but the, um, the mid to high price mountain bikes are, are a little bit harder to get. And I think also the, um, mid to high price road bikes are hard to get. And, um, and there's kind of a shortage of, there's kind of a dearth of, of. Of really affordable road bikes. [00:29:13] Track 1: Hmm. [00:29:14] steve: I think, uh, there's not a lot of groups there, you know, I mean, tram's got and then, you know, shaman hasn't been, had a real good road group, uh, below 1 0 5 for years. So, you know, it'd be interesting and see how cues affects, affects that. [00:29:34] Track 1: Well, and their, their transition to 12 speed too. Um, and they had a, a factory catch on fire just before the pandemic, right. [00:29:43] steve: Yeah. What was that? It was a, was it like an ANOT factory or something? I know they were making some real high end stuff. Like they were making like the xtr crank, you know, when, when Xtr went to 12 speed, I think they couldn't get a crank for it for like two years. Right. [00:29:59] Track 1: Hmm. [00:29:59] steve: they were like, relabeling, theor, xt cranks. people were pissed about and Uh, yeah, I don't know. It it's, yeah. Fires in the bike in factory fires in the bike industry. That's, that's been, uh, yeah, that's been a gossipy thing going back, you know, 50 years. I think you can get some old timers telling you about famous fires and how they couldn't get such and such for, for five years after that fire. And sometimes I wonder much of it's urban myth, you know, and people just blaming things on their inability to produce stuff. They blame it on a factory fire. Didn't you hear about that? Come on. Giant factory burned out last year. And uh, I think especially before the internet, who would check, you know, it's like, ah, I don't know. I heard that like the van sneaker factory burned down last year. Didn't you hear about that? That's why I can't get those van sneakers I've been looking for. before the internet it was pretty hard to look that up. Now it's a little bit easier, you know? [00:30:55] Randall: Now you've been, so I think probably both of us have been talking to a lot of dealers lately for different reasons. Um, with, with me, we've been building out our, our dealer network for our logo spiel program. Um, and I'm curious to hear, I'll share a little bit about what I've been hearing and I'm curious how that, um, relates to, you know, some of the things that you've been hearing from dealers. So some of the things I've heard is, um, well one, you have, uh, essentially you weren't able to get product for a long time. A lot of dealers over ordered or ordered the same thing from multiple sources, hoping to get it from somewhere, um, sooner rather than later. And then all of it got dumped on the, on dealers in the fall and over the winter at exactly the time when. you know, nothing is selling generally, it's, it's the, the doldrums of the, the bike, uh, selling season and cycling season in North America anyways. But then also, you know, people, uh, with, with the country opening up post covid, um, you know, the bike boom was, was coming to an end and it wasn't clear. You know, where things will, you know, how that will level off and how much lag there will be, where everyone who got a b wanted a bike, got a bike and you know, the, you know, at at what point and, and you know, the secondhand market will start coming down in price and that'll become more compelling. So how long will it take for this lag of, of certain types of components to work its way through the space? Um, and it's been interesting too, you see, um, an ex, am I right that there's an acceleration of the big brands buying shops? [00:32:27] steve: Uh, depends on what time scale you're looking at. I, you know, I don't, I think, um, I think that's slowed down in the last six months or, or nine months. There was a big acceleration, you know, in, in 21, especially, uh, I think it was 21 when, you know, track had been buying shops left and right. Uh, specialized had not. [00:32:50] Track 1: Yep. [00:32:51] steve: um, when Mike's bikes sold to, uh, to pawn in, I think, I wanna say that was 2021. [00:32:59] Track 1: Pawn being the owner of, uh, Cervelo Santa Cruz and a handful of other brands. And Mike Spikes being a big multi-store chain, mostly in, in the NorCal, um, you know, bay Area. Yeah, [00:33:12] steve: Yeah. And they were the, I think the single biggest specialized dealer in the country and one of the, or maybe the most important markets in the country, the [00:33:19] Track 1: I think, I think Eric's was their biggest, I think Mike's bikes was number two. [00:33:24] steve: could [00:33:24] Track 1: but certainly the Bay Area is huge and a lot of, um, you see a lot of. S works, you know, $15,000 bikes rolling around the Bay Area. [00:33:35] steve: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot more of the high end stuff than, than Eric's sell, I'm sure. [00:33:40] Track 1: Yeah. [00:33:41] steve: Um, and it did, and it did kind of seem like Specialized had all their eggs in that basket. Um, they didn't have a lot of other dealers. It was just Eric. I mean, uh, Mike's just ruled the rot anyway, so Yeah. Specialized really woke up. Uh, that was, that was the wake up call for Mike Ard was, oh my God, we're, we're losing our distribution. Um, and it came on, they lost some other big dis uh, big retail distributions like, uh, um, ables in, in, uh, hill Abel down in Austin, Texas, which was a huge specialized dealer that Trek walked in and bought, um, all of a sudden specialized, lost its biggest dealer in Austin, Texas, which is another, you know, another one of the handful of very biggest markets in the country. [00:34:27] Track 1: And growing, growing rapidly with a lot of deep pocketed folks as well who tend to buy their, their high-end stuff. Yeah. [00:34:34] steve: So all of a sudden specialized, uh, said we've gotta get into buying shops. And, uh, they were running around buying a lot of shops. Um, I think they did not have the system set up that Trekk did for, uh, processing these shops once they had acquired 'em. Uh, so it was a little bit more chaotic, whereas I think Trekk had built up to it slowly and they had, you know, from what the stories I've heard of, you know, TREKK has these SWAT teams that come in when they buy a shop. You know, there's just woo uh, you know, 20, 20 people come down from Waterloo and, and fill up the hotel rooms and whatever town that they just bought the dealership in and just handle that transition. You know, they usually shut down for a week or so, pop up some new signs, change over the website, uh, make some people some offers, and, uh, and they're, you know, kick out all the other brands and, uh, they're up and running again in a couple weeks. And, um, They've got it down to a science now and uh, I don't think specialized ever quite got to that. It was more like, uh, yeah, okay, we bought you, um, keep running. We'll talk to you in a few months when we need something from you. Uh, that was some of the impression I got anyway. I think specialized also was overpaying for some of the shops from some of the stories I heard, but, um, but I think it all slowed down a lot last, last year, I think with the, um, you know, with the economy and I think, um, the cashflow for companies like Specialized Amtrak I think became harder. And there's been a handful of acquisitions in the last nine months, but it, it really slowed down a lot um, I haven't heard it very many recently. We don't hear about 'em all cuz both, both track and specialize. Uh, tend to be really quiet when they buy a, a shop or a chain of shops. Uh, but I haven't heard many rumors in the last three or four months. [00:36:26] Track 1: I've heard, granted, I don't know the, uh, the dates on these, but as I've been talking to dealers, I've heard about offers being made, but those offers may have been made, you know, six, nine months ago, a year ago or something like that. Um, but there's definitely been a lot of, um, a lot of conversations being had along those lines over the past year, year and a half or so. Um, and it's interesting, you know, there's this long standing conversation in the bike industry about, um, you know, the dynamic between, or the balance between, uh, direct to consumer sales over the internet, which is growing for obvious reasons. And the pivotal role that the bicycle shop, particularly independent shops play, um, as a hub for the cycling community. And how do you. You know, how do you maintain this critical bit of community infrastructure, um, in a, in a world where, you know, increasingly people can buy things very conveniently over the internet and have it delivered, um, you know, directly to them. Now there's, you know, service has for a long time, um, been the bread and butter of shops. And a lot of shops pre pandemic were at least telling me, um, that they, as much as they spent a lot of their money on having bikes on the floor, most of their income, most of their net profit was coming from, um, service and parts and accessories. Uh, which is in some ways, you know, supplemental to service. Cuz when you go in for maintenance, you're getting chains and, and other service parts. Um, but how do you, how do you see that evolving over time from your vantage point? [00:38:07] steve: It's been hard. I mean, uh, when you hear that, you think, well, why don't you do a service only place? And, [00:38:15] Track 1: of folks are [00:38:17] steve: a few folks are, I'm not finding a whole lot of great examples of people that have been raging successes doing that. Um, Uh, you know, the whole, the whole mobile service thing has been at best for the last two or three years. Um, you know, I know that, um, a few people that have gone that way in, um, in the Boulder area haven't been hugely successful. I think there might be a couple that are still running, but, um, the problem is that you just lose that volume. You know, whether you make a lot of money on a bike sale or not, it's still, you know, thousand, 2000, 3000, $5,000 bike sale. You know, for some shops in Boulders, I know you were and visited some of them, you know, they pretty regularly are selling 10,000 and [00:39:08] Track 1: sure. [00:39:09] steve: uh, bikes. And, you know, the profit margin on that not be huge. And you might say, well, why does that guy even, you know, still sell mo bikes? Um, he can make more money building a wheel or, you know, just charging someone a few hundred dollars to install a new campy group on a moot spring. Um, but he nee he needs that, that dollar volume, uh, from the bike sale to pay the rent. Um, so there, there haven't been as many examples of that as you would think. you know, going back five years, going back 20, 30 years, people have been talking about, well, hey, we make all our money in service. Why don't we just do service hasn't worked for many people. Um, I think people expect bike shops to have bikes and, uh, I think the bike shops need that, that volume to make it work. Um, you know, some shops have been, have found some supplemental income doing more different types of service, whether it's, you know, whether it's bike fits, whether it's click and collect fulfillment. Or, uh, doing warranty service. You know, I know I, I talked to a guy at Caba who does warranty service for one of the better known to consumer e-bike brands. And, uh, he makes a pretty significant, high margin chunk of money, uh, just from dealing with warranty service from people that buy these bikes online and then have, have whatever troubles and the, uh, the brand reimburses him, uh, pretty generously. [00:40:46] Track 1: Yeah. [00:40:47] steve: so there's all sorts of, uh, kind of ancillary things around the edges that people fill in, but that guy, he still sound a lot of bicycles. [00:40:55] Track 1: Mm-hmm. [00:40:56] steve: Uh, he still has a warehouse full of 'em, and, uh, um, [00:41:01] Track 1: as do a lot of people right now, especially as we, we were saying on the, on the more entry level, um, in particular, [00:41:09] steve: Yeah. So I don't know. I haven't seen, there's, there's examples here and there. Yeah. Of, of the people who are, who are focusing on the service or are looking into, you know, more of the showrooming, uh, fulfillment click and collect kind of models. And there, you know, there's a million different models as you know, [00:41:27] Track 1: Mm-hmm. Well and, and click and collect and, [00:41:31] steve: not, I'm not finding, but like wholesale, you know, all the bike shops going outta business and all of a sudden we have a whole bunch of just little fulfillment showrooms around. Um, is happening, but not on a huge scale, you know, I mean, what specializes do, I don't know how many of these fulfillment centers they have. Uh, that's one of the things they did up in Northern California where, um, after they lost Mikes was opening up these little fulfillment centers. They would just rent a warehouse space in the, you know, in the business park somewhere and hire a couple people to assemble bikes and give 'em a truck, and they would run around and deliver 'em. [00:42:10] Track 1: Oh, that wa that was basically, um, velo, fix's pitch to the OEMs in the day. Yeah. Uh, Veli fix, uh, being a van based service operator, [00:42:21] steve: Yeah. [00:42:21] Track 1: I know you know this [00:42:22] steve: to be doing a better job of that than, than maybe be, was, um, [00:42:29] Track 1: velo fix. I, [00:42:30] steve: model. [00:42:30] Track 1: yeah. I had spoken with Velix a couple of times, and not only could I not understand the value to us as an o e em as a brand, but I couldn't understand a, you know, they, they required a huge upfront and, uh, investment from their franchisees to not just buy a van but outfitted a particular way and have it beli, fixed, branded. Um, and then, you know, you're paying a, uh, I think an, um, it might have been an upfront fee and then a recurring fee, and then a percentage of your income. To this company and this company, uh, is supposed to drive business to your franchise, but really in a way, they're kind of intermediating you. And at the end of the day, you know, and the co I, I'm curious, what do you think about this? Um, I, I had always talked, uh, spoken to the van based folks that I knew and said like, you know, at the end of the day, your, your brand is yourself and the quality of service and your engagement with your local community. And, you know, there's no big, um, company, uh, I think can substitute for that. And I think the bike space is, is that might be more so the case than in other spaces. Like you have this particular mechanic, uh, because the difference between a good mechanic, a skilled mechanic, a mechanic who cares, uh, and, and does a good job, um, and is engaged in, in their community. The difference between that and. Somebody who doesn't, somebody who doesn't have the skills. Somebody who, you know, it could be the difference between a safe bike and an unsafe bike amongst other things. Yeah. Um, well, so another topic that you and I have touched on in the past is, uh, you. The supply chain and risks to the supply chain. Uh, I've seen a couple of articles, I believe in your publication, uh, talking about, um, the increasing concerns about exposure to, uh, growing hostilities between, uh, the US and China over, uh, Taiwan. And I'm curious, what have you been hearing, seeing, uh, with regards to, um, any sort of changes being made on the, uh, upstream for a lot of companies, um, both, um, OEMs who are sourcing in Asia, but then also say Taiwanese companies and so on, uh, who are producing, um, you know, what, what changes are you seeing? Are people, is that accelerating at all with the, uh, increasingly hostile rhetoric? [00:45:07] steve: Uh, yeah, but you know, slower than maybe I would've expected. Um, and that, you know, that might not be due to reluctance, but just the fact that it's, it's a hard task, um, [00:45:19] Track 1: Yeah. [00:45:20] steve: setting up a, a bike factory or, uh, in a new country and building the infrastructure around it, uh, to make that work, particularly during a pandemic. [00:45:30] Track 1: Yeah, yeah. [00:45:31] steve: so, you know, going back to stories I was writing two years ago, you know, I, I think I saw just recently that Velo Saddle opened their factory in Vietnam, I think it was, [00:45:44] Track 1: Makes sense. [00:45:45] steve: that they had been working on for like three years. Um, and then they just, they were ready to turn it on when the pandemic started, and then they just, um, sat on those plans for a couple years. But yeah, Velo moving outta Taiwan supplementing their Taiwan factory with uh, a Vietnam factory is a big deal. And, um, You know, and at Eurobike last year, I had a lot of talks with people about, them setting up different factories in Eastern Europe to serve the European market. Um, but, uh, you know, we just saw investing in a new factory in Taiwan, so, uh, there's not a, there's not a mess exodus yet, and I think people are, are finding it's, um, fairly hard to operate in some of these other countries. Cambodia, I think, turned out to be more of a challenge than some people thought. [00:46:44] Track 1: Sure [00:46:45] steve: Um, you know, there's stuff moving towards Malaysia and Singapore, I think. Um, [00:46:52] Track 1: in the. [00:46:53] steve: Vietnam has been up and down. They had more covid problems than, than some areas, I think. yeah, it's a very slow movement. I think, you know, um, you know, Trek hasn't broken ground on a giant new factory in, in Waterloo, as far as I know. Or, or, or in Mexico or in, uh, Bulgaria. You know, [00:47:16] Track 1: Well, that, that's a whole, I mean, it's a related conversation, um, and a whole other can of worms that we can crack open. Um, so one, you know, we, we have looked, um, at various times over the years at what it would take, um, both for us to do more production domestically, um, but then also, um, for more production to be done domestically in a general sense. And, uh, I'll give an example. Um, recently I was looking at, uh, you know, developing and sourcing a metal frame, either steel or titanium. Um, we'll, we'll stick with steel. It's an easier example. So, um, called, uh, a few different outfits and, uh, well one, there isn't really anyone who's mass producing steel frames in the US When I say mass producing, like doing, you know, thousand of units at a go. Um, with the exception of maybe Kent. [00:48:09] steve: Detroit. [00:48:11] Track 1: Uh, Detroit bikes [00:48:13] steve: Mm-hmm. [00:48:14] Track 1: they, and they're serving as a contract manufacturer? [00:48:17] steve: Mm-hmm. [00:48:20] Track 1: Might ask for an intro at some point. Um, [00:48:22] steve: That's Tony Kirklands, [00:48:24] Track 1: oh, okay. [00:48:25] steve: who bought, um, he and his partner bought time, [00:48:30] Track 1: Mm-hmm. [00:48:30] steve: is making carbon frames in Europe somewhere. Slovenia, [00:48:36] Track 1: Okay. [00:48:36] steve: of those European companies, [00:48:37] Track 1: Yeah, [00:48:38] steve: Um, and then that company car, it's called Cardinal Bicycle Works, I think, uh, also bought Detroit. Uh, they're, they claim to be the biggest steel frame maker in the US and uh, they're making stuff under their own. Name and they're doing a couple other contract [00:48:58] Track 1: that. [00:48:58] steve: some, they made some Schwinn Varsities a couple years ago. I mean, I think that was only a few hundred units or a or so. But they actually, they brought Backy made, made Detroit? [00:49:11] Track 1: Well, one of the, the things that's great to hear, and I'm gonna follow up on that, um, one of the things that kept coming up as I was having conversations here was there are essentially two primary, um, sources, uh, brands that are selling, uh, tube sets. Unless you're sourcing factory direct outta somewhere in Asia, uh, I think you have colo. You have, uh, what Columbus some in some Reynolds. And one of, one of them has been struggling with supply and both of them are, are quite expensive in the US vis-a-vis what you can get comparable tube sets for in Asia. And so when you combine those two factors of both more expensive raw stock and the fact that you can't, you don't know it's going to be available and you only have two supply, two primary suppliers versus if I want to make, uh, a frame somewhere in Asia, I have. Countless tube suppliers now don't necessarily want to use just any of them, but even the, the higher end ones, of which there may be a handful, they still have the, all these other factories kind of nipping at their heels. And that, you know, drives innovation. That drives, uh, you know, them to build this sort of, um, you know, production facilities that can handle scale, that are responsive. Uh, they know if they can't deliver on a tight timeframe for a reasonable price, that someone else is gonna develop that capacity to do so. Um, and that goes across every single thing that you could want to source for a bicycle, whether it's something like a carbon component you want to develop. You have any number of facilities where you could co-develop that, that component. And they'll even provide the engineering, in some cases, they'll latize the tooling over the, over the units, which is to say, like, spread the cost of the tooling over the units, the, the tooling costs. You know, my tooling costs for a frame is on the order of like 8,000 bucks a size. . Um, and I could have that built into the price if I do enough volume. That's, you know, you combine all of these factors and, you know, going back to the issue of, of Taiwan, yeah, it doesn't surprise me that you're not seeing moves and mass just because you have such deep and interconnected supply chains there. And even like when you get your goods quoted, they quote it, um, not out of the factory. They deliver it to your door. And that's just expected. And when they say they're gonna deliver it, generally they're pretty on time. Um, particularly, you know, the, the, the better vendors out there, the more professional ones, the velo, uh, you know, velo makes not just saddles, but bar tape and they do most of the high-end stuff in the industry. Uh, still there are a couple competitors, but, um, and it's because they just do such a great job. Um, and that efficiency. And, uh, another example, I was sourcing stems years ago. and I was like, oh, I'm, yeah. I lived in a, I lived in China for a number of years. Uh, I bet you I can find a better deal somewhere in China. I couldn't, Taiwan had better pricing on a superior product. Um, and it's because Taiwan had, um, invested in, you know, factories like, uh, jd, um, their trade name is Trans X. [00:52:15] steve: mm-hmm. [00:52:15] Track 1: they manufacture for any number of brands. They did all of our, uh, cockpit stuff, uh, for thesis, and they just have a very well run production facility in these huge forging machines and really high quality tooling. And they can just crank out high quality 3D forg stems all day with that high quality and without a, a huge, with a less and less human intervention in that process. Um, and, you know, do it at a price that makes it such that, you know, there's no point in going somewhere else. Um, because most of the cost is not associated with the labor. [00:52:52] steve: Yeah. [00:52:53] Track 1: Um, so yeah, that, that makes sense. It'll be interesting. Uh, you know, I'm, as you know, I did my, my graduate studies in US-China relations, and so it's a situation I've been following quite closely. Um, I guess, uh, if something does happen there, uh, the availability of bike parks, it will be the, the least of everybody's issues, [00:53:13] steve: Yeah. Yeah, that's a thing. I mean, there, there won't be many parts of the economy that won't be affected, um, if something happens there. But, um, bike industry will not be an exception, [00:53:24] Track 1: now, [00:53:25] steve: um, except for maybe on the service part. Right. Still, uh, we can still maybe [00:53:31] Track 1: secondhand stuff will be, um, the secondary market will be booming, [00:53:35] steve: Yeah. [00:53:35] Track 1: so, [00:53:36] steve: up now by your, uh, by your HP cassettes now. Yeah. [00:53:43] Track 1: well, so to, you know, to wrap up here, um, what do you see going forward, um, from, and, and very open-ended question, uh, what are you excited about from a technology standpoint? What are you seeing, um, in terms of, uh, you know, innovative business models or distribution models or, uh, just trends in the, in industry more generally. [00:54:10] steve: Well, there's one word that we haven't used so far in this call. You like, [00:54:16] Track 1: Sure. [00:54:17] steve: you know, there's still, there's still some growth there, I think. Um, [00:54:21] Track 1: What do those stats look like right now? [00:54:23] steve: it's not good stats. There aren't any, I don't know. You know, you can just read the T leaves and see that, you know, there's been some discounting and there. Um, even some of the low price brands that were scaring the hell out of everybody a year ago, um, are now blowing out prices, which is not good news, but still, um, kind of suggests that the, uh, the, uh, demand has, has slowed a little bit. [00:54:51] Track 1: Mm-hmm. [00:54:52] steve: but you know, it's exciting to see, uh, the growth and the cargo bikes, you know, um, you know, I know Specialized finally did their public launch of their globe. The Globe this week. [00:55:02] Track 1: Mm-hmm. [00:55:03] steve: launched the Ecar bike a month or two ago. I think. there's some others coming around. Turn seems to be kicking ass. Um, And, uh, not to mention rad power. Um, so, you know, that's, that's still exciting. There's still growth potential there. Uh, you know, I don't think you're gonna get to European numbers where, you know, like in the Netherlands where, I don't know, or 70% of the bikes sold, there are e-bikes. Now, you know, we're in the US it's probably 12% or something. I don't know. not gonna get there. I've been saying that for years, but, you know, even if we go from 12% to 18%, that's, uh, a lot of growth. And it's also, um, you know, a high average selling price of these things. You know, [00:55:53] Track 1: Mm-hmm. [00:55:53] steve: to talk about Kent selling $89, 20, 20 inch wheel bikes to Walmart. But when you're talking about somebody, you know, when you know the low price leader is selling bikes for 1400 bucks, uh, e-bikes. [00:56:07] Track 1: Yeah. [00:56:08] steve: You know, and then, you know, and, and specialized just brought out their, you know, their discounted, affordable e cargo bike, which I think starts at 2,500 bucks or something. It's a big, it's a big difference there. [00:56:20] Track 1: Well, [00:56:22] steve: so, you know, Turin is selling these, you know, these little electric mini band bikes, uh, you know, for three, four or $5,000 regularly then, then another thousand dollars in accessories on top of it. Um, so, uh, not to be too focused on the dollars and cents here, but I am, I am from a business magazine, [00:56:43] Track 1: Sure. Yeah. [00:56:44] steve: um, so yeah, there's exciting and, uh, you know, yeah, there's, there's, it's, it's fun to see the growth in the gravel bikes. and uh, and the activity around that, uh, the way the events are going and the competition is, is really interesting. Um, [00:57:05] Track 1: And the, and the community dynamics in the gravel space too, it seems to have remained a lot more accessible even as you have more elite level events and so on, showing, showing up. You still have, you know, lots of local events and it's a, it's a version of cycling that is, well, it's a very versatile machine and it gets you off the road. Which addresses, uh, the, the thing that comes up in survey after survey as the biggest limiter, uh, for people getting on bikes, which is fear of cars, you know, the safety concerns. [00:57:39] steve: yeah, yeah. And I'm not sure what I think about that. I think it is more accessible than, you know, old school, you know, USA cycling, road racing, um, I guess, uh, but you know, last night, I mean, for me, I don't have a whole lot of interest personally in doing a lot of the events. Maybe a couple a year, but, you know, mostly I, what I like about gravel writing is just being able to go out and explore and. Um, ride by myself or with a, a couple friends, but not necessarily pin a number on. Even if I do pin a number on, it's not really to raise, it's just, uh, you know, an excuse to ride with some people and have some rest areas where I can get free food along the way, [00:58:21] Track 1: Yeah. [00:58:22] steve: of having to fill up my water bottles in a creek somewhere. So, um, but I don't know. I went to a, I went to a big gravel race, um, last spring and. It, it didn't look very accessible to me. You know, I saw a lot of people pulling up in Sprinter vans with a couple, you know, $8,000 bikes on the back bumper and, you know, the carbon wheels and, you know, there was a nice dinner out and it was during Covid, so everybody was eating outside and they had the streets blocked off. We're all sitting out on the tables on the street. And, uh, it was, it was kind of fun. It reminded me of, you know, no racing from back in the day. But, uh, but then, but then, yeah, I'm looking around and I'm seeing a lot of pretty well-healed middle class [00:59:06] Track 1: Yep. [00:59:07] steve: people with nice cars and carbon bikes, with carbon wheels and a whole lot of money invested. And I'm like, I, [00:59:15] Track 1: Well, and [00:59:16] steve: accessibility of this. [00:59:17] Track 1: well, and, and yes, that absolutely exists. And that's a, that's a perfectly fine thing. Um, you know, there's, there's a place for everybody. I, I think what I'm referring to more is, well, one, what you're describing as like going out solo or with some friends and, you know, going out on the road, leaving from your back door and then going out on adventure and like experiencing your area from a different vantage point. Um, there's also kind of along those lines, uh, the bike packing phenomenon, which to some degree is a little bit like the s u V phenomenon, that people are buying bikes that they could go bike packing with, um, but not necessarily doing it, but you, but you see more and more of that people doing an overnight or a couple days or something. [00:59:57] steve: Mm. [00:59:58] Track 1: but then lots of just, uh, at least here in New England, I've been to a few very kind of small, intimate types of events. Maybe you have a, a couple hundred people show up and there's a, a, you know, a, a wood fired, um, uh, pizza oven going and, you know, local, uh, brewery supporting, and it's to support, uh, some local cause and maybe they have a podium. Um, but, but not really. It's like, that's not the point [01:00:26] steve: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I think, uh, the whole, the way the competition goes, um, you know, I don't know how many people are interested in the, and even, uh, from a spectator point of view in the racers, I, I, a few people are, I mean, we [01:00:44] Track 1: It's, it's not, it's not super interesting [01:00:47] steve: right? I mean, I, I'm a nerd. I mean, I'll, I'll, man, I, last week was, I, I was watching Melan, I mean, not Melan. Perry Neese and Toreno Rko, you know, back to back every morning. I mean, I'm a total bike race nerd. I love it. You know, I did used to be the editor of T com, uh, and I couldn't even tell you who the top gravel racers are, you know, in the US and I don't know how many people care. I know, you know, we at outside@beonnews.com and cycling tips.com. We write a bit about that. Betsy Welch is doing a great job, but, I, I don't know how many, you know, I'm, I'm interested in doing gravel events. I'm interested in the gravel equipment. when I hear about an event, I think, oh, that might be nice to go to some year. I'd like to do that and see what it's like to ride in that part of the country on those kind of roads. Uh, but do I want to read, uh, a 2000 word interview with the guy that won the pro race? Uh, maybe not. I dunno. [01:01:55] Track 1: I'm, I'm with you. I think that the, um, the more interesting story is the, the story of your own experience of the events. You know, you go and you do something that is long and maybe has some technical sections, and you are, um, linking up with different groups along the way, unlike, say, a, a cross-country race. Um, so cross-country race, you tend to be, you know, it's a, it's a time trial in which you have some people in the way sometimes, um, and road, [01:02:20] steve: in the way. [01:02:21] Track 1: yeah. and then Ro [01:02:23] steve: usually the one that's in the way of some other people, but yeah. [01:02:26] Track 1: Yeah. Um, that, that was my discipline back in the day. Uh, but with gravel, you have, I mean, uh, I know quite a few people, myself included. At this point. I'm no longer. I no longer do these events to compete, I do it as a way of connecting with folks, like being out on a ride and you end up just, uh, linking up with different groups and having this kind of shared ordeal of slogging up that hill with a group or riding into the wind with another group and, you know, making friends along the way. And those are the types of dynamics that, you know, I have, I haven't done a ton of the, um, you know, the, the big, the big banner events for, you know, gravel series and so on. Uh, but those are the dynamics that I'm seeing at the, again, these more intimate, local types of events that I think when I talk about accessibility, that's, that's where, um, my heart is, you know, things that are much more about bringing people together and, and providing a shared experience, a platform for a shared experience that people, uh, find, um, meaningful and not just a competition. [01:03:28] steve: Yeah. And just from a, you know, from an event point of view, just the practicality of it now. I mean, we're, we're, we're losing paved roads where we can have a race. I mean, even just watching, watching the two races in Europe last week, how, how many of 'em they have to go through these damn traffic circles? I mean, the, the last 10 kilometers are scary now cause there's a, there's a traffic circle every five blocks. [01:03:51] Track 1: Yeah, [01:03:52] steve: uh, all these, you know, the road furniture is just getting worse and worse. And that's been happening in the for years. You know, there's all sorts that had to be canceled just because of all the development and the traffic and road designs make it impossible. The road there anymore. [01:04:08] Track 1: yeah, [01:04:09] steve: mogul Bismark circuit outside of Boulder is just unable now. Because of all the traffic circles [01:04:16] Track 1: yeah. Um, Boulder's a very, boulder's a very particular place. Um, you've been there for how many years now? [01:04:25] steve: Uh, about 15. [01:04:27] Track 1: Yeah, uh, I haven't been going there quite that long, but, um, I did do the whole kind of dirt bag, private tier pro thing at one point. Um, so got to ride at a bunch of different places and obviously for my work, I'm traveling a fair amount and the, um, the number of strong riders you have where you are is pretty outstanding. It's kind of hard to go out on a ride and not cross paths with some past or current national champion or Olympian. Um, and you also have, um, unique in the US is some of the best bike infrastructure anywhere. And that actually to maybe we close up the conversation with, um, you know, you had talked about how. you know, we could say modal share, uh, the share of, uh, trips taken by bike or the number of bikes being sold, um, not just for recreation, but for utility. You know, e-bikes primarily fall into a utility, uh, space with the exception of, you know, some performance mountain bikes and so on. But the, uh, you were saying how Europe has seen far more adoption. Uh, what do you see as the differences between the European and US markets and, you know, the, the things that would have to happen here, uh, to see greater adoption of bicycles as a modality for, you know, not just, uh, enthusiast riders, but recreation and, and, you know, more importantly as a, I

In a world where so much technology promises to solve our business problems, it can be difficult to figure out which tools are truly helpful and which ones aren't. For real estate agents, teams, and brokerages, there are millions of tools and resources available to us, but not all of them give us the results we want, even with effort and consistency.What are some of the tools and systems that we should be taking advantage of? Can it provide real value?In this episode, Director of Operations & Marketing at Elite Real Estate Systems Kathryn Nizzi joins me to discuss the tools, resources, and systems that Elite Real Estate Systems has tried and tested and how they can benefit you.Three Things You'll Learn In This Episode The key to getting the most out of technologyEven the best tech tools will fall flat if we're not consistent. How do we make sure we're not dropping the ball on that front? Tried and tested methods and systemsHow do we figure out if a specific method or system works for us? How to keep growing What kind of tools can you access through ERS to achieve your goals?Guest BioKathryn Nizzi is the Director of Operations & Marketing at Elite Real Estate Systems.Find Kathryn on LinkedIn @Kathryn Nizzi or email kathryn@eliterealestatesystems.com

In this episode I talk with Greg, Jeremy and Lathan Erwin from Erwin Resource Service.  ERS is a family owned and operated logging company based in Fordyce, Arkansas.  Three generations of Erwins have made it their career and goal to grow the family business out in the woods. They were at the Oregon Logging Conference with Wayne and Robyn Cochran from Axis Forestry.  This episode is my first one that was recorded in person, in my office.  With that being said, please excuse any weird audio things, I'm working through them as I go.   In this episode we chat about how things are done in southern Arkansas and how the Erwin family was the first US customer of Axis Forestry.  These guys are pretty awesome to chat with and I would like to thank Wayne and Robyn for the idea and the Erwins for their time on the morning they had to fly back home.  Since I'm thanking everyone, I also want to thank the listeners of this podcast for your continued support.  I can't get everyone in person for the show but I am going to do my best to get everyone I can to be in person from here on out.   This episode is brought to you by Axis Forestry.  Axis Forestry recently released their new Rebel T22 processing head in December 2022.  The Rebel T22 is built tough, with the North American logger in mind.  To learn more about their products, visit their web site www.axisforestry.com or call 778-471-2947 today to place an order.  Swing by their booth, 168 & 169 in the Exhibit Hall, at the Oregon Logging Conference Feb 23-25 in Eugene, Oregon.

In this episode of ER VET, Dr. Justine Lee, DACVECC, DABT reviews why veterinary ERs are so busy right now! Tune in to learn what the word "triage" means in the veterinary ER and how this affects your cat and dog when you go to the ER... after all, do you REALLY need to go? SHOW NOTES: Triage in the Veterinary ER

Jason has released over 100 albums, has been #1 on multiple Billboard and Amazon charts, and had five Billboard top 5 albums in a 5 month period in 2019. He's a 7th degree black belt and cofounder of Zen Wellness. Jason's music is being used in hospitals, ERs, yoga studios, wellness centers, therapists waiting rooms, hospices to relieve stress on families and reduce end-of-life drug use. He is the Director of Music for Genius X Virtual Reality and writes music and meditations for Virtual Reality. His work is also found on performance based apps like Hapbee, ChilliSleep and Focus at Will. Jason runs the Zen Business Mastery entrepreneurial mastermind, and released the first breath-work course in Virtual Reality in 2022. His most recent endeavor includes purchasing the town of Cleator, Arizona with a small group of visionary investors. As the newly appointed Sheriff of Cleator he is combining western culture with eastern wisdom to create a community committed to the uplifting of the human spirit. Mark and Jason discuss many fascinating topics, including:How does someone start in creating music to increase awareness of others?How music led to meditationHow can I achieve goals and not suffer and find the joy in doing?The best entry point into meditationHow to prioritize self care and wellnessDaily routinesThe Five ElementsHow to define–and feel–successfulHis plans for the town of CleatorReconciling sufferingThe duo also emphasizes the importance of building the skill of learning to be happy–and finding joy in struggle. TIP OF THE WEEKJasonTwo things:Go to Zen Piano and download a five-minute breathing exercise.I release a new album every month. Find the most recent, by searching Jason Campbell Zen Piano) on your Spotify or iTunes. Put on headphones and listen to a song. Don't listen to the notes, but to the space underneath the notes and see if you have a moment of not thinking.MarkGo to Zen Piano and send Jason a note to take an hour course with Jason. It is well worth your time and investment. WANT TO LISTEN MORE?Did you like this episode? If so, tune into an awe-inspiring Art of Passive Income podcast episode to learn from modern-day philosopher, Derek Sivers."Are you ready to learn more about land investing? Just click HERE to schedule a call.""Isn't it time to create passive income so you can work where you want when you want, and with whomever you want?"

In this business, it's easy to treat a contact as one opportunity and to discard it when the transaction ends. But one data point can be a node for multiple interactions. If we extend its life cycle, it can turn buying and selling one home into different verticals and transactions for years and even decades. How do we use technology to unlock the lifetime value of a client?In this episode, Chief Experience Officer at Fusion Growth Partners, Kyle Baack joins me to talk about magnifying the value of one data point, and we share an exciting announcement about what's coming to ERS.Three Things You'll Learn In This Episode - Coming soon…Powered by ERSHow are we partnering with real estate teams to help them maximize their profit? - How to use tech to create efficiencies Can real estate teams remain profitable without leveling up on technology? - The most powerful asset in any real estate organizationOutside of selling homes, what other pieces of value can we offer to consumers?Guest BioKyle Baack is the Chief Experience Officer at Fusion Growth Partners, and an executive at Powered By ERS, our real estate marketplace (still in beta). He is an experienced leader with a demonstrated history of international business and technology. To get in touch with Kyle, send an email to kbaack@gmail.com.

Stefanie Huff, MD, aka “Dr. Stef” (with an F!!), is a full-time emergency medicine physician, life coach, inventor, and a single divorced mom to two fun-loving kids, Mattie (11) and Max (9).    In 2008, Dr. Stef left Omaha and headed to Denver and the mountains.  She lived in the MODA Lofts in the town center to be near the airport while she traveled the country as a locum tenens physician (I.e. traveling physician). Shortly after, she began working at Avista Adventist Hospital ER and continues to work in ERs within the Centura system. Dr. Stef is also certified in addiction medicine and obesity medicine, and previously owned and operated two medical clinics in Central Park.   Dr. Stef became a certified life coach after it helped her reclaim her life from physician burnout and a high-conflict divorce. She created her life coaching business, Figure Life Out LLC, focusing on co-parenting tools and mindset concepts to help working moms find peace and freedom from divorce and high-conflict co-parenting. To get coaching with Dr. Stef, visit her website www.figurelifeout.com or email her at drstef@figurelifeout.com     During COVID, Dr. Stef invented the “Icky Sicky Box”, a tissue box cover for dispensing and disposing tissues. The first edition of the Icky Sicky Box is ready for purchase in the near future, so stay tuned for how to purchase your own Icky Sicky Box!   When not doctoring or business-ing, Dr. Stef loves traveling with her kids, especially to the mountains to ski and hike. If you see Dr. Stef on walk with her dog Bailey, she may be recording one of her “Walk-N-Talk With Dr Stef” reels, which you can find on Instagram/TikTok/Facebook @figurelifeoutmd   

Dr. Jonathon Sullivan and Noah Hayden are joined by RN Ann Buszard. They discuss how typical or conventional medicine today fails to address the root causes of most issues, including the Sick Aging Phenotype. They talk about how exercise medicine, specifically strength training with barbells, is the cure. You can check out more of Sully's work on the Greysteel YouTube channel. Bad Medicine and the Sick Aging Phenotype Too much medicine fails to address root causes. While modern trauma care can save life and limb, more and more reasons that people end up in ERs cannot ultimately be addressed in ERs. These causes need to be addressed earlier. Exercise medicine, as opposed to conventional medicine, offers a way to address what Sully calls the Sick Aging Phenotype. You know it. You may have it. If you don't, you almost certainly know someone who has it. The Sick Aging Phenotype is that combination of illnesses that worsen as many people age. It includes things such as obesity, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, and diabetes. Too many people accept that aging comes with a growing list of limitations. Exercise Medicine with Barbells Exercise medicine with barbells is safe, healthy, and effective. Contrary to many people's misconceptions, it doesn't mean getting huge nor is does it come with a high risk of injury. Instead, barbell medicine helps strengthen and add muscle and other tissue. This can give people more capabilities, as opposed to taking them off the table. Exercise medicine can give you years of quality life. Benefits of Voluntary Hardship This repeated process of doing difficult things regularly doesn't just come with physical and biological benefits, but spiritual and psychological benefits as well. It builds confidence, as well as muscle, and helps athletes of aging realize they can do more, not just in the gym but in their everyday life, that they may have considered impossible. GET STARTED with one-on-one online coaching FOR FREE! Get your FIRST MONTH FREE on all strength and nutrition coaching plans. There's no contract and you can cancel anytime. Start experiencing strength now: https://bit.ly/3EJI18v  Connect with the hosts Matt on Instagram Niki on Instagram Connect with the show Barbell Logic on Instagram Podcast Webpage Barbell Logic on Facebook Or email podcast@barbell-logic.com

Can hospital care be delivered at home? Will the hospital of the future only consist of ERs, ORs and ICUs? Dr. Helen Ouyang is an emergency physician, Associate Professor in Emergency Medicine at Columbia University, and contributing writer for The New York Times Magazine. She has written for The Atlantic, Harper's, Los Angeles Times, New York, The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and others. Her writing has been a finalist for the National Magazine Award, anthologized in The Best American Science and Nature Writing, and funded by The Pulitzer Center. Helen has worked in 20 countries across five continents in public health and humanitarian assistance. Her publications have also appeared in many academic medical journals, including The Lancet and JAMA, and she currently serves as a reviewer for Annals of Emergency Medicine and Disaster Medicine and Public Health Preparedness. She is also a mentor-editor for The OpEd Project. Until 2015, Helen was the Associate Director of Columbia's International Emergency Medicine Fellowship. After graduating with a bachelor of arts from Brown University, Helen went to medical school at Johns Hopkins and studied for a master's in public health at Harvard, where she was also a Zuckerman Fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government's Center for Public Leadership. Upon completing her training at Harvard, at the Massachusetts General Hospital and Brigham & Women's Hospital, she moved out to the Pacific Northwest before finding her way back to the East Coast. Episode mentions and links: https://helenouyang.com Your Next Hospital Bed Might Be At Home via NY Times Magazine Can Virtual Reality Help Ease Chronic Pain via NY Times Magazine Restaurant Helen would take you to: Bernie's Restaurant Follow Helen: Twitter | LinkedIn Episode Website: https://www.designlabpod.com/episodes/107

Guest: Victoria Gibson, affordable housing reporter While hospitals are still struggling with staff shortages and overflowing ERs, some have also been pushed to the front lines of Toronto's homelessness crisis. As almost 5,000 homeless Torontonians came through St. Michael's downtown trauma centre last year, some were there simply because they had no place to stay. It prompted hospital staff to launch an outreach program that connects patients to crucial supports beyond just immediate medical care. This includes providing a warm bed, clothes and even free legal advice to the city's vulnerable. We take a look at the scope and span of this program. This episode was produced by Alexis Green, Paulo Marques and Saba Eitizaz. Audio Sources: City of Toronto

In the United States, over one third of all available food goes uneaten through loss or waste. That is a hard number to ignore when more than 10% of the US population is food insecure. What's more, uneaten food is the single largest category of material sent to landfills. So what is the USDA doing to address food loss and waste? Our guest today is Dr. Jean Buzby, the Food Loss and Waste Liaison in the US Department of Agriculture's Office of the Chief Economist. Interview Summary Norbert: Welcome, Jean. It is great to have you. So what do you do in your position as the USDA Food Loss and Waste Liaison? As the USDA Food Loss and Waste Liaison, I'm using my platform to raise awareness of food loss and waste, its associated challenges that you mentioned, Norbert, as well as the opportunities for businesses and consumers to save or make money by reducing it. I've worked with multiple partners in the corporate, nonprofit, academic, and government arenas to prevent or reduce food loss and waste. I work with colleagues from the different USDA agencies to increase food loss and waste activities within those agencies as well as with other federal partners in particular. We host, throughout the year, webinars highlighting food loss and waste reduction success stories. In recent years, we have hosted interesting USDA Food Loss and Waste Innovation Fair. Norbert - That's wonderful. As I remember, you were one of the earlier folks out there really using USDA data to begin thinking about what food loss and waste looks like. We really thank you for the work that you've done to begin this work. Brenna - Jean, that actually leads us into one of my questions. The USDA is a big agency with really broad responsibilities. Can you tell us a little bit more about the scope of USDA's work on food loss and waste? Absolutely. The scope is quite broad. We do quite a lot of research, both in-house and extramural funding, for new food innovations and technologies that reduce food loss and waste. For example, our agricultural research service has over 2000 scientists and 90 research centers across the country. Some of those scientists work to develop new and heartier cultivars, such as the keepsake strawberry, which is flavorful and has a longer shelf life. They also have developed automated infield apple sorting systems that separate low quality from high quality apples at harvest with less bruising damage. And other innovations, such as in packaging. The USDA has the National Institute of Food and Agriculture, or NIFA, which does a lot of the extramural competitive funding that develops new technologies and innovations to reduce food loss and waste. For example, one novel technology is Jelly Ice, which doesn't melt like traditional ice and it can be reused several times. And then ultimately composted when finished. So, it's pretty exciting technology and just one of many. USDA produces education and tools. For example, we have a free FoodKeeper App which provides guidance on safe handling, preparation, and storage of more than 650 food and beverage items. And with this App, you can track storage times for different foods, learn cooking tips, and watch helpful videos, and get information on food recalls. We do a lot of funding through our different agencies. For example, Rural Development has funding, and grants, and loan programs that can provide cold storage infrastructure. Brenna - Thank you for that broad overview, Jean. I know Norbert and I spend a lot of time thinking about food loss and waste, but you kind of forget all the different things that USDA does to work on that issue. Can you tell us about any other federal agencies that you work with to meet the national goal to reduce food loss and waste in half by 2030? USDA has an ongoing inter-agency partnership with the US Environmental Protection Agency and the US Food and Drug Administration to improve coordination and communication efforts to educate Americans on the impacts and importance of reducing food loss and waste, and to help get some of these programs going. But these three agencies both have their individual activities as well as collective activities across the agencies that raise awareness and share resources for consumers, businesses, and others. One example of our inter-agency work is the USDA and the EPA have an initiative called the US Food Loss and Waste 2030 Champions program. This encourages the food corporations and businesses to make a public commitment to reducing food loss and waste in their own US operations by 50% by the year 2030, which, by the way, is a national and international goal to make that very ambitious reduction. Right now, we have about 50 2030 Champions, and these include companies across the food system, such as food service organization Aramark, hotel industry leader like Hilton, and grocery giant Kroger. You can learn more about the 2030 Champions by searching for USDA 2030 Champions. If you click on each icon, or the logo of each company, you can see what they're doing in their own in-house activities. It's very exciting and we are actively growing this program Brenna - I think the number of champions has grown quite a lot so that's great to hear. Norbert - I really am happy to hear about the various companies that have engaged in helping reduce food waste. Brenna and I have worked on different projects looking at different actors along the food supply chain and their relationship to food waste. And one of the things that we do know is that consumers really are an important part of that challenge for us to reduce food waste by 50%. I would love to hear some of your thoughts of what can consumers do to help reduce food waste? Absolutely, Norbert. You're right; everybody has a role to play in reducing food loss and waste. A great first step is to be mindful of the food that we discard. We may not be aware of the amount of food we waste over the course of the year because it's a little bit today, a little bit tomorrow, and over time. But an average family of four wastes about $1,500 of food that they purchase and then goes uneaten. That's a big hit to the wallet and small choices add up. But consumers can take mini steps to reduce food waste in their own homes. Such as they can plan ahead; before we go to the grocery store or order online. We can make a list so we don't buy more than we need. You can also love your leftovers. You can pack leftovers in small portions in shallow containers, and mark the contents and date, and then refrigerate it or freeze it immediately. You can even have a leftover night, like every Tuesday is for leftovers. You can also compost and not trash uneaten food. Food in landfills produces a harmful methane gas that's 25 times more potent than carbon dioxide as a climate change gas. It's really important to keep that food out of landfills. You can recycle your food scraps in a home compost bin or a local compost center. But there are many more steps and if you just search online, "USDA food loss and waste," you'll find we have a whole page just for consumers with lots of videos both in English and Spanish, as well as consumer outreach materials. I love the recommendation of "Love Your Leftovers." I'm going to love some later on today so thank you so much for this. Brenna - So the US has a national goal to cut food loss and waste in half by 2030. So I guess, bottom line, are you optimistic that we'll reach that goal? Well, it is a super ambitious goal and I really wish I had a crystal ball to know where we will be by 2030. I am encouraged by the momentum that I see by the public sector and the private sector. Both globally and domestically, there seems to be really increased awareness about food loss and waste. I certainly hope it takes off just as recycling did. But it's important to recognize that the food loss and waste challenge itself is going to continue well after 2030. This issue is here to stay with a growing world population, limited resources, like finite amount of arable land and fresh water. And also our growing awareness of the connections between food loss and waste, and the environment. We'll have to continue to address this issue beyond 2030 as well. Some of the key takeaways I'd love to share with you is that food loss and waste is really complex and it's going to take many different solutions from farm to table. There is no silver bullet. These solutions are going to be many, and will include, likely, public-private partnerships, as well as increased consumer education. As I mentioned before really everyone has a role to play in reducing food loss and waste. Norbert - All great points, Jean. Thank you so much for your perspectives on this issue. One of the things that I took away from this conversation is this is a systemic challenge and it's going to take a systemic approach to help us reduce food loss and waste throughout the supply chain. Thank you for giving us that perspective and also for your optimism. I'm excited about the potential and the work that several of us are doing are all moving towards that goal. Bio Jean C. Buzby, Ph.D., is the USDA Food Loss and Waste Liaison in the Office of the Chief Economist. Prior to this position, she worked for USDA's Economic Research Service for more than 20 years, most recently as the Chief of the Diet, Safety, and Health Economics Branch in ERS's Food Economics Division.  Before moving into management, her primary areas of work as an agricultural economist at ERS were food safety and food consumption research. Jean's food safety research included estimating the cost of foodborne illness, analyzing the legal incentives for firms to produce safer food, and exploring international trade and food safety issues. Her food consumption research was centered on information from the Food Availability Data System. She is domestically and internationally known for her research on the amount and value of food loss at the retail and consumer levels in the United States.

 We look at 5 key pieces of evidence against Bryan Kohberger  The White House is pushing back against Republicans who have accused the Biden administration of wanting to prohibit the use of gas stoves in U.S. households. “The president does not support banning gas stoves,” White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre said at Wednesday's briefing.  According to the study conducted by the University of California San Diego School of Medicine, just 366 Californians over the age of 65 visited ERs in 2005 for cannabis-related concerns. By 2019, that figure had skyrocketed nearly 3200%, when 12,167 seniors made trips to emergency rooms for that reason. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

With renewed scrutiny on Nova Scotia's emergency departments, Arichat physician Robert Martel says the situation has been a long time coming, as other problems in the health-care system trickle down to ERs.

Happy 2023 to the ERS community! We are excited to kick off the year with our first book discussion of Greenlights by Matthew McConaughey. This our first deep dive into a memoir and it was a blast to read. Let us know what you think of the book and if you have any suggestions for other books.  --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/eatreadsleep/support

David Heurtel is joined by Caroline Codsi, Founder & Chief Equity Officer, Women in Governance and Paul Gott, Lead singer and guitarist for Montreal Punk Rock band the Ripcordz and a journalism professor at Concordia.  Zelenskyy to Congress: your money is not charity, it's an investment. What did you think of his address? ERs: more deadly this year than in 2021? (What will 2023 bring?) The new plan to reduce overcrowding in Quebec emergency rooms is paying off, the province's health minister said Wednesday, but a major nurses union said that while the measures are laudable, the situation remains critical.  Montreal Mayor Valérie Plante will not commit to honouring the historic bilingual status of Pierrefonds-Roxboro, the lone borough in the city of Montreal with such a status.

In this second of a 3-part “music and wellness” podcast series, we listen to the music and stories from state employees ( from ERS, TDI, TPWD and CPA) who shared their time and musical talent at our 2022 state employee virtual wellness fair. Each of the musicians reflects on the how role of music in their lives has changed over time and the ways it contributes to their own well-being. This episode is co-hosted by Jimmy Anderson, a state worker and drummer for the Austin band The Bandoliers – whose music is featured on this episode. Experience the power of music in this very special series. Check out all of the afternoon concerts and more through the 2022 Virtual Wellness Fair Channel.Send feedback for this episode and these performers to lacy.wolff@ers.texas.gov 

In this episode, recorded live at SEMICON Europa in Munich the week of November 14-18, 2022, Françoise von Trapp speaks with 3D InCites member companies that either exhibited, presented, or in some cases, both, at the event. Conversations range from discussions about this year's event compared with the 2021 show, the impact of the respective EU and US CHIPS and Acts on their businesses, and the technology innovations they showcased at the show.  Guests and CompaniesPeter Dijkstra of Trymax  Alan Weber of Cimetrix by PDF Solutions  Dieter Rathei and Krista Tropper of D.R. YieldThomas Fries of FormFactorHeiko Dudek of Siemens EDA and Raphael Theveniau of ST Microelectronics Jim Garstka of PlasmaTherm Byron Exarcos and John Voltz of ClassOne Technology Ralph Zoberbier of Evatec  Debbie Claire Sanchez and Sophia Oldeide of ERS electronic GmbH Jim Straus and  Sally-Ann Henry of ACM ResearchRam Trichur of  Henkel Corporation  Mike Rosa of Onto Innovation  FInd these Articles on 3D InCitesThe Road Towards Climate Neutrality from the Perspective of a German SME Mobile Antennas and Power Devices that Break The Mold Like what you hear? Follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter Interested in becoming a sponsor of the 3D InCites Podcast? Check out our 2023 Media Kit. Learn more about the 3D InCites Community and how you can become more involved.

Sexual Assault Nurse Examiners, or SANEs, are specially trained advocates and care providers for survivors of sexual violence in ERs and other clinical settings. In addition to providing medical care and counseling, they can collect forensic evidence at the critical moment following a sexual assault. Oregon SANE Savannah Powell talks to Lindsay Smith Rogers about the important role SANEs play in survivors' healing and the unique challenges the field faces in the context of the nation's nursing crisis and post-Roe policies. This episode was co-produced by intern Hannah Bennett.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. This episode highlights Lavendar Phoenix's Peer Counseling Program. Tonight you'll be hearing interviews from Iris Yip, Phibi Loc Tran, Madhvi  trivedi-pathak, and Al.  They launched their Peer Counseling Program back in August 2022 and  This pilot came out the Trans Justice committee's Up to Us needs assessment finding around trans and non binary API people struggling with mental health and not being able to access affirming mental health support. We wanted to create a free mental healing program that was led by trans API people and did not involve the police.  About 7+ trans and non binary API members planned and organized for almost 2 years to make this pilot happen in Aug 2022. In June-August 2022 we trained 10 trans and non binary API counselors in abolitionist and disability justice based peer counseling (with the help of Project LETS and Asian American Peer Counseling).  In August 2022 we held peer counseling with 8 participants.  The majority of the organizers, counselors and participants were from our priority groups: working class, South Asian/South East Asian/PI/Central Asian. We chose these groups to prioritize those most impacted by systemic oppression in our community. One participant who received counseling said: “Both of my peer counselors were so lovely to talk to, and I felt more seen in that one session than I have in 10 years of searching for a therapist who could understand my intersectionality.” Lavender Phoenix builds transgender, non-binary, and queer Asian and Pacific Islander power in the Bay Area. We inspire and train grassroots leaders, transform our values from scarcity to abundance, and build vibrant intersectional movements. AACRE Thursdays is monthly radio show featuring an organization from the AACRE: Asian American for Civil Rights and Equality. AACRE Thursdays premiers every third Thursday of the month at 7pm. Find more APEX Express Shows here. Links: Donate to sustain our work: lavenderphoenix.org/donate Instagram: @lavphoenix Facebook: facebook.org/lavphoenix Twitter: @lav_phoenix Lavender Phoenix Transcript: [11/23/22] Peer Counseling pilot [00:00:00] Apex express Asian Pacific expression. Unity and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions, and voices coming to you with Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board the apex express.  [00:00:14] paige: Hello, welcome to acre Thursdays on apex express radio. My name is Paige Chung and tonight we'll be listening to interviews from lavender Phoenix, an organization of transgender non-binary and queer Asian Pacific Islanders fighting for community safety, healing justice. And sustainable movements in the San Francisco bay area.  [00:00:33] paige: I'm really excited tonight to showcase lavender. Phoenix is peer counseling program. Tonight. You'll be hearing interviews from Iris Yip , Phoebe loc tran, Madvi Trivedi-Pathak, and Al, all members of lavender, Phoenix. So they launched their peer counseling program back in August, 2022. And this pilot came out of their trans justice committee's needs assessment findings called “up to us”. In their findings they found out that trans and nonbinary API people [00:01:00] struggle with mental health and not being able to access, affirming mental health support. So they wanted to create a free mental health healing program that was led by trans Asian Pacific Islander people. And did not involve the police.  [00:01:13] paige: So about seven plus trans and non binary API planned organized for almost two years to make this pilot happen in August, 2022. So From June to August, 2022, they trained 10 trans and non-binary API counselors. And abolitionists and disability, justice based peer counseling. Using the help of project LETS and Asian-American peer counseling. Then in August, 2022, they held their peer counseling program with eight participants. The majority of the organizers, the counselors and the participants were from the priority groups of lavender, Phoenix, which include the working class, south Asian people, Southeast Asian people, Pacific Islander people and central Asian people. And they chose these groups to prioritize because they're the most [00:02:00] impacted by systematic oppression in their community. And one participant who receives counseling said, ” both of my peer counselors were so lovely to talk to. And I felt more seen in one session that I have in 10 years of searching for a therapist who could understand my intersectionality.”  [00:02:16] paige: So we'll first hear from Iris. Yep. And Mahdavi, and then you'll hear from Phoebe and I'll later on. And yeah, we'll hear about their peer counseling program that they launched and their reflections from it. Here is Iris Yip.  [00:02:31] Iris: So the first question is about the planning process of the pilot. So thinking about the planning process with peer counseling pilot what do you think has been going well with the process? [00:02:42] Madhvi: With the planning process? Process? I came in during a later iteration. So by the time that I entered into this space there, several folks through Healing Justice and maybe even other committees that had given their [00:03:00] input. [00:03:00] Madhvi: So it's gone through many different folks, many different perspectives have been included in the planning process, and I think that creates a really well-rounded experience. You can tell that there's a lot of consideration too, on who's been generally excluded from life spaces where gaining the tools for healing and community support and really trying to center the planning around. Amplifying and creating a space that feels welcoming for folks that are often excluded, even within our large QT API umbrella. It's nice that this is a trans centered space. This is one that is really trying to honor working class narratives to think that's a place of invisibilization often. So there's a lot of thoughtfulness that has been put into the planning process. [00:03:48] Iris: And what would you say that is the impact of that thoughtfulness and having had so many perspectives be involved in the creation of this? [00:03:56] Madhvi: I think impact is that when there has been gaps, it does end up [00:04:00] getting filled. There is an abundance of perspectives coming in. So there's this flow of thoughts that , keep it full , very thoughtful in that way. also the folks who are on, who are in this iteration of the planning and organizing. I'll come from really interesting, unique backgrounds. So you're able to see the input from each different person and it gives it a really beautiful, full experience to be able to see the ways in which the curriculums can develop the way in. And the art connecting to the flyers, that was created by a previous summer organizer too. There's just it's nice to have a history already, in this mix, being made and so many people being involved. Okay.  [00:04:45] Iris: And then thinking about the planning process again what has been difficult about the process? [00:04:50] Madhvi: Since this is a first time pilot program, there's so much beauty and potential for what seeds are being sewed in this segue of [00:05:00] wanting to make sure things feel. Evenly doable for folks who are the peer counselors in training as well as the people who are on the organizing end and so it's this chemistry situation where we're , okay. [00:05:13] Madhvi: I'm , does this feel too much too soon? Or does it feel not enough? We wanna be able to. Support folks and feeling supported to be able to do this pilot. It's new for everyone, for the organizers, for the people who are being trained, for the folks that are gonna be receiving the counseling. So there's a lot of considerations around ethics, safety, holding, these notions of what is safe? What feels the individual, in their agency and autonomy can hold and the organization too. Where are the places where lavender, phoenix, maybe impacted, Are there things around informed consent or if there is some kind of moment things that we've had conversations about, it's okay, what.  [00:05:53] Madhvi: Someone gets activated a peer counselor's not able to hold the space or they end up leaving feeling [00:06:00] activated from a session. We were thinking a lot about the chain of support, so how the organizers can support the peer counselors as they're supporting the people being counseled and then how lavender Phoenix can help the organizers. So it's just a lot of figuring it out for the first time. . And also peer counseling is really beautiful in this way where it's separate from the clinical, mandated regulations that maybe counselors who are held by, state laws are in relationship with.  [00:06:30] Madhvi: So there's more freedom here. And then also moving through that space. It's also when we're in that place of freedom, there's this underlying, I feel the state tries to instill fear in people who are trying to do this work that you're gonna fuck up or gonna do something wrong. And it's really a lot of us being , we actually know what we need to do, how to be able to maneuver out of these state based policies that rely on violence systems and give each other the tools. [00:06:57] Iris: Okay. And then last question [00:07:00] on the planning process do you have any recommendations for improving the process or [00:07:05] Madhvi: For the planning process? I think that there's really great intention to share, if people are feeling. Burnt out overexerted. And also I think that a lot of us, including myself, [laughter], I think from the , I will not really share that when it's happening, even though the language at Lavender Phoenix and the culture is ask for help when you need it. [00:07:25] Madhvi: There's so much of that. And then yet there's still this feeling of resistance or feeling , Bad about not being able to do more and pushing past, what does feel comfortable I'm wondering if there's a space for people in the planning process as organizers to kinda anonymously send feedback to staff anonymous feedback survey sort of thing, during the process to kinda gauge. People's level of feeling energized, exhausted, what maybe is needed. [00:07:56] Madhvi: And since there are people who are yeah, the working class [00:08:00] end too, of the organizing side. It would be cool if there were stipends. It is a lot of work and labor that goes into it for compensation is a cool thing. And also it's one of those things too, even saying it feels a guilt twinge or being , this is something where it's community. We're doing it for a reason outside. But it's also the, sometimes it's hard to be able to do the psych work when our own cups are emp. [00:08:26] Iris: Yeah. Great. Thank you for sharing the ation. And I think there's a of the important things there, especially around feedback. Yeah. I think anonymous feedback is to bridge that of job and how difficult it's my next set of. Is it that the sustainability you talk a little bit about, but I know that the peer counseling team has tried to do a lot of work around making the process sustainable for both the planning team and counsel. So thinking about the sustainability of the process what do you think has worked so far? [00:08:57] Madhvi: Sustainability wise, it has [00:09:00] been nice to be able to have the larger healing justice committee plug into the efforts. And there's I think five or six of us who are in the organizing peer counseling side right now, but they're , Yeah, as I shared before, there have been so many people the earlier iterations of this too. It's being able to know that you can kinda pass the torch and there's gonna be other people there. It's not all of the responsibility is on this group of five or six people. There are so many people who are down to rise to the occasion and support and be here for the next iteration too. I think that's gonna be something that's gonna help with. Long term visions of sustainability too, and knowing that there will be breath in between and there's always consent in the process too, really invitations to kind join into these efforts. Nothing feels, it feels the space to communicate. [00:09:55] Madhvi: Okay, if it's when does it end? Are we. ending there. Are we [00:10:00] continuing, it does seem there's a finite end point for this moment in time, which gives a break and that feels just good to know in terms of future planning and if the invitation to come back to help the pilot program or the program if it wants, if it grows. Something that's gonna be a larger part, for the future of lavender Phoenix. And there's that aspect, which is great. Sustainability wise, it's cool that we're not, the organizers are not doing all the trainings. I thought that was originally what it was and it felt a lot. [00:10:28] Madhvi: But we're able to resource out to people in the community who've been doing this work for a really long. Who are living their lives, Project lets folks in that word Stephanie, get to make their living off of doing this amazing disability justice work. And it's cool to be able to financially support them too in the process of feel sustainable. Even in the way that we're creating the relationships, new relationships to other orgs that haven't been part of Lavender Phoenix's network in the past. So it feels yeah, there's that way of [00:11:00] being able to be supportive, sustaining other people, other projects, other orgs, utilizing other folks' knowledge. [00:11:07] Iris: Yeah. as a follow up to that, what you think the impact has been of outsourcing, the training to project LETS rather than digging it. [00:11:16] Madhvi: Yeah, The impact has been a really great learning experience, I think for even the organizers doing this too. We get to learn alongside the peer counselors, we get to build relationships with project labs other groups too we're gonna be doing role play later. I'm forgetting what the acronym starts with aapc. And just being able to these are folks that have been doing peer counseling specifically in Asian American communities, for a good second too. So they have inside guidance, a history, a way to be able to support and navigate and offer their own wisdom. As this specific, lavender, phoenix seed is in its way of sprouting out a peer counseling. So [00:12:00] it's lovely being able to , have people who've been doing this, be able to offer feedback throughout the process to offer guidance that doesn't , feel one of those things , ah, we're starting from scratch. [00:12:10] Madhvi: No, it's it's already here. This resource is here and we're connecting to what is already, and then if, Yeah, making the changes that feel the needed transformation, maybe if it. Spaces haven't honored trans, non-binary, intersex communities, in the process of centering their spaces, That's what we're able to do better. What we're able to commit to doing better is owning those kinds of spaces and having folks within our own communities getting trained who have lived experience in that way. So just different places, orgs that have lived experience in their own ways, taking the gems and then knowing that our peer counselors have this other lived experience that maybe not as represented in other spaces. They get to add their own little non-binary flare too. Yeah. [00:12:58] Iris: And then on the flip [00:13:00] side thinking about the sustainability of this project, what do you think could make this process more sustainable? [00:13:06] Madhvi: It really feels in the future since we've already kinda done a lot of the initial connecting, getting the trainings, learnings and understandings, from this experience, going forward it's gonna be a lot less work on the organizing end since we've done a lot of research amongst all the different iterations of folks who have passed through the planning process for this. That there's just a beautiful database that is growing and growing in so many resources that are growing and growing that it's feeling very. A tangible vault of okay, this is where we're gonna go and we know where we're gonna go. Versus I'm not sure yet. It's kinda we transgressed into the place of knowing okay, these orgs are here and that helps, that feeling of sustainability and kind shortening, that place of panic of Oh, where do we go? Who do we turn to support us and who can we support to in. .  [00:13:58] Madhvi: Yeah, and [00:14:00] if we're able to keep in touch and keep those relationships strong, there may be even more places of connecting and growing and offering. People in not just the live under Phoenix community, but community, but larger communities the ability to access maybe free or, Yeah, free trainings on peer counseling and letting it be more of a widespread so to resource that it's just a really beautiful thing that folks can tap into feeling that level of agency, that feels self sustainable, too, sustainable for organizations when people , feel they're equipped. [00:14:35] Iris: Thank you for your response to that. My last two questions are about the future of the program. So first do you have any thoughts on if we should continue this program after the pilot stage and what would the impact of that be? Whether we do or not? [00:14:53] Madhvi: I think it would be really wonderful for it to be something that happens.[00:15:00] A few times a year. I know when peer support things do start out, it's smaller, shorter, and then as people can be more familiar with the process and the comfort of knowing their own agency and holding space, it feels something that it could be in many seasons throughout the year and the space of just. [00:15:21] Madhvi: Drop in support. It's something that feels a need that's always gonna be a need. And it's also to have free, culturally competent, gender expansive, aware ways of being, in listening in support. That feels a forever healing justice. Home to kinda be able to provide community. It feels important. It seems and fingers crossed, that people who are going through this training program are able to tap in deeper cuz there's a good handful of folks, I believe 16 people and those folks can be organizers in so many different renditions down the line too, having had [00:16:00] this experience and they're coming in. Yeah. I'm just so curious to hear their own feedback on this process and what they think future peer counselors would need for it to grow. I'm sure that there's gonna be maybe more, carefully cultivated, cohort experiences could be a. Powerful experience for folks. [00:16:19] Madhvi: Cause right now it does feel a little bit looser in the sense of different parts of , the summer organizer. There's a strong sense of Oh, we're building relationships with each other. That doesn't seem it exists so strongly for people who are peer counselors right now, they're showing. These spaced weekends with minimal contact with each other throughout. So maybe that could be the future, where there's a more of a cohort experience. Yeah.  [00:16:44] Iris: Yeah. The last question is, do you have new recommendations for continuing this program beyond the pilot? If it does. [00:16:53] Madhvi: Yeah, I think this cohort experience would be cool. Maybe art, kinda. Component too [00:17:00] are a, creating a space, it is something that we didn't really talk about, but there are ways of making virtual s and things that, And that could be really beautiful as part of this. I'm also curious to hear more people's stories as to why they're interested in this work. There was a little bit of that in the welcoming but just the ability to know folks a little bit more feels it could be important. And in the spirit of doing that too, it feels the training would maybe need to. be closer in time as well as instead of spaced out over several months. [00:17:36] Madhvi: I think the spacing out really helped us as the planning team. Yeah. Cause a lot of things have been figured out very as we're going, even though we tried to plan ahead, things changed. So it's okay. But that timeline that allows a sense of intimacy and connection to in a way that feels , okay, more concrete. And yeah, I think more interactive aspects too would be [00:18:00] helpful. It does feel a lot of absorbing, which is super important. And also I think when we get to the role play, we're gonna be able to witness more so of the peer counselors in the process of. Doing the embodied and the relaying aspects of this where Yeah, right now it's a lot of absorbing, taking in. [00:18:21] Madhvi: Yeah. I'm also wondering for the peer counselors in their own lives too, the way that , these interview questions have been kinda asking about sustainability. Or the planning team and all of those I'm curious too, for them, how they would need more support from us. If it feels it's even an open invitation too, I'm not entirely sure if that has been as carefully created and Yeah. So I think that would. An important thing to consider going forward. Just kinda checking in on where the individuals are too in their life and knowing that they can receive support. I , I hope that they know, in our [00:19:00] emails, there is always that space of feel free to, to connect on things anything in the reading feels activating. This is who you can reach out to and so I hope that There in a way that sometimes even when something is there in that way, it doesn't mean that people are gonna use it if there's not that trust and rapport built.  [00:19:19] Madhvi: So I feel needing to have some trust building, relationship building for people to feel safe enough to actually reach out if they dunno folks. Yeah. Okay. And actually I have one follow up to your, It's about what do you think would be the impact of having a closer connection between the counselor cohort if they had more opportunities to , interact with each other and talk in that way? , I honestly think that it. I'm just thinking about my own cohort experiences in different places. I've been able to lean on those folks, maybe more so than the people who are holding the container. There's a distance between the people who are holding the [00:20:00] container and the people who are going through the process with you, shared experiences, more maybe of the same questions, insecurities, excitement, joy and being able to have that kinda space to know okay, we're going through this together, this part of the journey. It could just help additional processing that, stronger feeling of grounded in purpose as well. Yeah.  [00:20:24] Madhvi: Great. And I totally agree, and that's my question. Yeah. Thank you for talking with me. I'm going to end the recording now. [00:20:33] paige: All right. That was the first interview with Iris yip and Madvhi. So now we're going to take a quick music break and listen to queer brown love by Leo Hegde who is on staff. I love under Phoenix. This is queer brown love by Leo Hegde.  [00:21:00] [00:22:00] [00:23:00] [00:24:00]  [00:24:20] paige: You just listened to queer brown love by Leo Hegde who is a staff at lavender Phoenix. You are listening to apex express on KPFA 94.1 and online@kpfa.org. Let's get back into these interviews by lavender Phoenix. And this next interview will be conducted by Iris Yip who will be talking to Al.  [00:24:41] Iris: This is the first question. What has gone, what has worked well with the training content?  [00:24:45] al: Yeah, so what has worked really well, I believe is Lavender Phoenix outsourcing the education to those that are actively learning and practicing. Peer [00:25:00] counseling based on their own lived experiences. I think that opportunity to collaborate with project lets created such a in depth and I. Just , how do I say this? Enlightening space for me and my peers to learn and also express curiosity, ask questions in live time with the coordinator of project lets, and process hard emotions and also bring in our own lived experiences and ask for best practices in live time. [00:25:29] al: So I just, That has been very revolutionary for me because just in multiple learning spaces that I've been in from school to workplaces to internships, people tend to cut corners around education. They think that trainings are just trainings PowerPoints, but. I think that learning from guest speakers that are actually within the realm of work, and especially for this work of working with people, I think that this will create influential impacts on each and every peer counselor.  [00:25:59] al: There's [00:26:00] no way that I feel this curriculum has been disengaging. It's been so engaging and so memorable. And I wanna say too, that I've been in different peer counseling cohorts and I've been trained on this topic area, but the content was ableist, not trauma-informed, controversial and harmful. And the content that peer counseling has been teaching me has been healing me and been helping me to expand my scope on my family, my lived experiences, and myself and my community. And it's so much more than just a training. It's a revolutionary space for sure.  [00:26:40] Iris: Awesome. Yeah. I love that. Has there been any, specific part of the training that you can share that you think has had that impact on you?  [00:26:47] al: Has that healing impact on me? Yeah I think that I've. I think this might be normal in lavender, phoenix spaces, but it's not normal for me in my other spaces in my everyday life. [00:27:00] But calling one selves in to whenever they misspoke for instance, one time the coordinator of Project LETS had said something about the word darkness and they had not caught themselves about the racist implications that, that may have because of the just how society binary things, black, white, darkness and light. And there's a lot of connotations around the words you use and using mindful language. And I didn't know that it was. Irking, I didn't know that. But then in that space, someone called them in and the speaker corrected themselves.  [00:27:34] al: And I got to watch, someone that I look up to model behavior in lifetime of what I'm learning as they're learning and seeing my educators , or my mentors facilitators, having that student always mentality too, that they're here to learn from us as well. That's groundbreaking because I have so much respect for queer elders cuz they've lived through so much stuff. But the fact that. The queer [00:28:00] elders in this space in particular want to learn from us, the youth in this space. I think that's what's really healing, because in this space, I just see a world where I really actually wanna live in. And that could make me cry because the state of the world outside of the space is really ugly. [00:28:16] Iris: That's amazing. I'm really glad this training has given me that space. I really resonated with what you said about being an environment where there's, again, mutual sense of learning and wanting to learn from each other. I think that curiosity really helps bring an open mind to these kinds of spaces.  [00:28:30] Iris: Okay. The next question is, so I think you've touched on this already, but what do you think has been the impact? Of outsourcing this, people that are really, I guess doing the work of anti ableist behavior and anti-racism, culturally competent peer counseling. What is the impact of that being in this kind of training? [00:28:47] al: I think that it's resistance in the making and movement in the making. I think that I feel very lucky to have access this knowledge because not everyone gets the chance to learn what [00:29:00] happens when someone's under psychiatric arrest? That's something that you will hear more about when you go through the project lETS training, but understanding. Because I'm coming from a place of privilege where I've never been 51 50 that I've never been arrested. I've never been on the inside doors of a psychiatric treatment facility. So speaking from that point of view and hearing from someone who has, and the harm that the state has on patients and how vulnerable patients are, I feel like that creates movement and solidarity with people who do not have lived experiences with it, but know people who have lived experiences with it and see how fucked up it is and wants to do something better and provide alternative sources and resources for care, specifically community care because . [00:29:48] al: One of the main reasons why I'm so politicized is because growing up I watch my dad struggle to get the mental health access care he needs because he has severe [00:30:00] mental psychosis that relapses annually. And I believe that the reason why it happens so repetitively and cyclically is because there's a need that's not being met and that need should met by the healthcare system in this first world country. But it's so inaccessible. It's so culturally irrelevant and dare say it's harmful, it's abusive, it's traumatizing. And so Okay. I'm going on tangents, but it's, it, I never understood what happened when my dad was hospitalized because I was always on the outside. [00:30:32] al: I was always his caretaker, wanting to find him a source for him to get care. But He was never able to really communicate to me what was happening on the inside of those doors because of language barriers, because how hard it is to talk about these things in Vietnamese culture. It's just, there's so much that separates us from being able to talk about everything he feels and everything he experiences. [00:30:51] al: There's just not words to describe how bizarre the state of there is in this country and neglect that he's faced due to war and [00:31:00] colonization. He doesn't have the words to describe what he's going through, but I can see the effects and now I know the effects. I know I have the knowledge and education of what happens behind those hospital doors and how he spends hours and hours trying to pay his hospital bills that are bizarre. [00:31:16] al: Hundreds of thousands of dollars and so I know these things now because of the space that I hear from other people. And I think that in knowing this, I'm fired up, I'm heated and I, my drive is to build community. My drive is to build actual healing spaces that, we have the potential to create as a collective. And I just don't wanna rely on the state anymore. And I want better for my dad. I want better for me, I want better for our community Now, future past, I. We can do better now with these tools that we're learning in this space and how we're opening our hearts to each other through the various pains and barriers that, that the state is trying to keep in between us all. Yeah.  [00:31:58] Iris: Yeah. Thank you for [00:32:00] sharing both so vulnerably and so passionately. Oh, no, I really love the way you are always very reflective in what you say. And I think it gives such great knowledge that I can learn from too yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Oh my God, this is great. Okay. My next question is do you think there's any other additional trainings that you would find helpful or that you think you would to learn more about that hasn't been met yet? [00:32:25] al: Yeah. So I actually went to. Bystander Intervention training led by the Safety Committee, Community Safety Committee. I feel that should have been everyone who's training to be a peer counselor should have gone to that. I feel because it was so relevant. It was basically one thing in particular that I feel , just related so much is because they gave us real life scenarios. What would you do if someone was experiencing active psychosis in the park? What would you do with your body? What would you do with yourself? Would you get other people? All these things that are relevant practice for what's coming up in this training. [00:33:00] Cuz I know that looking forward we are going to have a pilot program and the more practice that we can get, especially role play practice and especially being in person with one another and establishing those connections with one another, I think that's so crucial and yeah I, Does that answer your question? [00:33:19] Iris: Yeah, definitely. And once again, the follow up. What do you think the impact of that would be if everybody that was becoming a peer counselor would take that kind of bystand training?  [00:33:27] al: Yeah, I think that the effect of that is that we would be able to reach more people who have various learning styles because I know that for me personally, it's hard for me to learn through Zoom because I don't have a safe space to be taking my meetings. I still live in my parents house and it's really hard for me to focus sometimes and feel entirely safe. So having spaces in person for me personally is a space for me to exhale. And be a different type of present cuz I'm with people and [00:34:00] I'm sharing space — space that is established and intentionally safe or encouraged to push you to be brave. [00:34:08] al: I don't know if everyone will feel safe there, but that's definitely the intention. And just for me personally, yeah, being on Zoom kind of you can't assume that everyone can learn that way, yeah. As effectively, especially since I feel the generation that's primarily in lavender, Phoenix and the training, we grew up going to school in person. That's the probably 90 to 95% of the experience. It was just such a shift and learning these super relevant topics. All the while I'm in a space that's far back in terms of. It's just being in this house is going back in time or just being in spaces that are not lavender, phoenix it is, you're going back in time. [00:34:44] al: Racism is there, homophobia is there, all the bad things are there. But when you're with lavender Phoenix, you're just I'm in this new world that I actually have hope in. I was saying earlier, so having a central location for people to meet would be so cool. But I also know that Lavender Phoenix is so spread across the Bay area, [00:35:00] which is so cool. So I know it wouldn't work for everybody, but I don't know. Yeah. [00:35:04] Iris: Yeah. Absolutely .  [00:35:06] al: Oh, another thing too, an impact that I, a positive impact is that having those scenarios will allow us to practice these skills with various demographics and various sectors of our lives and just honestly live by what we learn. And not just practice it in work, but actually apply it and externally and internally in all facets of our lives, which I think is awesome. That's what education should be. It's for liberating the soul and for liberating the people. It's, yeah, it's not for a grade, it's not for a Certifi certificate. It's for you, and for the people. So I think that getting opportunities to practice with one another and treating it , it's more than just a training that you can just click through, that's the difference I think. Yeah.  [00:35:48] Iris: Yeah. Totally. Awesome. Okay, so next question is going to be moving a little bit away from the training content into, so I know the peer [00:36:00] counseling team has been doing a lot of work to try to make this process sustainable for both the planning team and for the counselors. So thinking about sustainability have there been things that, you've seen this program do that you think has worked to make this process more sustainable for the counselors? [00:36:17] al: Have I seen anything that makes the process seem sustainable for, Is that the question? [00:36:24] Iris: Yeah. [00:36:24] al: Remind me again is this peer counseling training program, has it been through generations already? Or is this the first cohort?  [00:36:31] Iris: This is the first time.  [00:36:32] al: Have I seen anything that [00:36:34] al: let's see. I think it's been. I think it's too soon for me to say cause I missed the first meeting because. It was an awkward transition. I had just joined Lavender Phoenix when Lavender Phoenix changed their name. So I missed all the information for the first meeting. I don't know what it, what the community building aspect that they had planned was at all. And that's how me, I could have watched the training back, but [00:37:00] it was an hour long and I didn't want to. Yeah, I would also feel fomo. I was , Oh, I missed it. I wasn't there. I think that maybe. No, I don't know how to answer this question cuz I missed  [00:37:09] Iris: Yeah, that's OK . That's ok. Yeah. Then perhaps, is there anything you can think of that Loud could implement to make this process more sustainable? And thinking perhaps in the long run. When this pilot program is actually started now and people are doing the counsel sessions.  [00:37:25] al: Yeah. I have a couple of things. Yeah. I would say since I missed the first one, I would say that I just wanna get to know people in my cohort better. I think that One thing that works in the past in my other peer counseling programs was that I established a feeling of familiarity with the people that I was learning with and why they're here and stuff that. And had a lot of focus groups and we practiced on each other for role play. Yeah, feeling less alone in this would definitely make this more, less nerve-wracking. So there's that for [00:38:00] sustainability of just cause the way that these meetings roll on, I feel not everyone can make it out to each one. So I think time should be cut away for folks to just get to know each other more besides the why are you here? But just prompt questions. [00:38:12] al: I know Lavender Phoenix can, ask some heartfelt questions and get people to open up to one another because I think that making that making it more personable will make it more sustainable. Cause, when you don't have a connection to people in a group, I don't think you're as likely to return and hold significance for it. So yeah, build building community in that way and not just for meeting. And other thing is I noticed that our meetings are quite sporadic. So I don't even really remember what I've the last time I met with the cohort, so having a more consistent pattern of meetings so that the knowledge that I learned can be processed and then added onto, but there's been so much processing time that I've almost forgotten it already. [00:38:52] al: So just having more consistent meetings for the next cohorts maybe and then for another, I know that since this [00:39:00] is a pilot program, there may be a lot of pressure around building curriculum. So I understand that's really challenging and I would say I would love to be a part of the planning process. I don't know what that would look for Lavender Phoenix and how they do things, but maybe their next court around you can have alumnis come back and be a part of the planning and the conversation. Or even right now opening up this space or opening up spaces for people in the cohort to provide active feedback since there are so many gaps between meetings, just talk to us so we can improve as we go, as opposed to wait and then improve. So more dialogue. [00:39:37] Iris: I love that. I love feedback. I think it's important as well. Okay and then now last question. Moving gone. Woo. You already shared some of this, but also thinking about the future of this program, do you have any recommendations for continuing this beyond the pilot that we're going to have?  [00:39:52] al: Yeah, please have more cohorts. That's my feedback. , I think that if Lavender Phoenix has capacity, a cohort a year would be [00:40:00] awesome or I feel very blessed to have had this opportunity, so I want it to keep going. I can't remember the days in which we were meeting, but having weekend meetings are awesome for students and people who work. Other feedback that I have for longevity and future planning maybe expand the, I don't know how many people are planning the thing, but maybe more support would help. I have no idea if they're struggling or what, but yeah, making sure that, cuz this is tough work. It's a lot of pressure to be birthing such a beautiful generation, So I hope that, on the other end of things, people are being properly supported and taken care of in terms of each other and themselves. [00:40:37] Iris: Yeah. Yeah, I the, there's one more question. There's just the follow with always the impact. So what do you think? So what will be the impact? And just what will be the impact of program, of peer counseling will be impact.  [00:40:49] al: Intergenerational community care within the, when this, within this queer, trans, non-binary, a API community I think it starts [00:41:00] here and I could see this being a force that spreads across the world. I think what we're doing is historical and we're carrying on other history legacies, And I think ultimately this saves lives. It saves lives of the people in this space, people who know the people in this space, and people that are in the space that we haven't even met. And it preserves our peoples, our stories and our powers and our energies. I'm getting emotional as to how much I love this program. It saves lives, it sets people free. [00:41:33] al: Yeah. Damn, you're not a cry. Yeah. I think the impact is be out of this world, I don't want it to end, I wanna return. I wanna keep learning. I think that's another thing too, is that as someone is in the core right now, I don't want it to end. I'd hate to see it end. I wanna keep learning. Yeah. So what does that look ? I don't know. Maybe I can return and facilitate and learn from people in the cohort. That would be beautiful.  [00:41:58] Iris: Thank you. Truly [00:42:00] amazing. And I agree from am I involvement in this process too? I really see the power of it and I really, the learning. Community. It's great. It's amazing. It's . So good. Yeah, With that, I'm gonna stop recording now.  [00:42:15] paige: All right. That concludes the second interview from lavender Phoenix. We'll be taking a short break. You're listening to 94.1 KPFA San Francisco, 89.3, Berkeley 88.1, Fresno and 97.5 in Santa Cruz. And of course, online@kpfa.org.  [00:46:56] paige: You're listening to 94.1 KPFA San Francisco, 89.3, Berkeley 88.1, Fresno and 97.5 Santa Cruz and online@kpfa.org. We're going to listen to the last interview from lavender Phoenix. That includes Iris yip interviewing Phoebe. And talking about the peer counseling program that they launched in august of 2022.  [00:47:26] Iris: So the first question our first set of questions has to do with the planning process for this pilot. And in thinking about the planning process for the peer counseling pilot, what would you say has been going well with the process?  [00:47:44] Phibi: Yeah. For what's been going well with the process? It's been nice that we've been able to go at our own pace and capacity, and we've also had lot of different learning lessons among the team that our time together. And also helping Jasmine as a staff person just check in with us from time to time has also helped [00:48:00] consolidate our ideas and moving out the process. [00:48:02] Iris: Great. And on the other hand, what would, what do you think has been difficult about the planning process?  [00:48:08] Phibi: Yeah, what's been difficult about the process is that there's actually been a lot of timeline shifts. For example, the pilot was intended to happen a one day, and then it was pushed back and then push back again. And that main thing that dragged out the process, which can be training in some context. Yeah. And then also what's been difficult is yeah, how the healing justice members involved in contributing Yeah. Cuz we weren't sure how to exactly even implement a process for folks outside of the peer counseling team in healing Justice can to support us. And it's also because, it's a novel process. It's just. Staff guided, on the side rather than a directly staff involved process. And making this part from scratch presents a lot of difficulties on the first time.  [00:48:46] Iris: Speaking on it's staff guided rather than staff involved. I think it's a, you said what do you think is the impact of that rather than that, the other way of doing it?  [00:48:56] Phibi: Yeah I think one of the positive impacts is that it takes some weight [00:49:00] off of the staff. Cause the staff carry on a lot of different responsibilities. And it helps them in that sense. And also it allows more spaciousness for different folks in the planning team to actually take on leadership in the context of makes sense for them, but passively rather than turning to the staff person for the next step, it's actually up to us to continue the process and then refer to them if we need support along the way. [00:49:19] Iris: Yeah. Great. Okay. And then, so think about the planning process question, which is, do you have any recommendations for improving the planning process? Maybe for now or for later?  [00:49:33] Phibi: Yeah, I think. Some recommendations would be to have the staff challenge us with more kinda push or challenging questions. I think I think during the time when Yuan was still the staff member for for counseling, it was someone would ask some really deep questions and I think that really helped us certify our values and also helped us stay on track. So I think times questions that challenge us I guess we wanna do this, but also , why are we doing this important? What is the meaning of it? Yeah. Yeah. And then we also kinda implementing a more formal [00:50:00] process. I think one example would be , Mocha could be a good process or just Or when we first had the pilot, when we first had the planning team set up, it's oh, we didn't actually have to have a structure. It was unstructured. And so having a more structured thing in the future would be helpful. And then also listing out all the different resources and contacts that we actually have, including different community organizations is helpful. And I guess if there's a second iteration of the peer counseling project or pilot, I guess program would be referring back to previous year's work if this could, if this goes on for multiple years yeah. [00:50:30] Iris: Yeah. Great. Okay. Next of questions to do around the sustainability of, so I know that the peer counseling team was doing a lot of work around making the process sustainable for both the planning team and the counsel. So thinking about the sustainability of this process, what do you think has worked? [00:50:48] Phibi: Yeah. Something we recently done is that we actually changed our monthly meetings from the duration of one hour to the duration of an hour and 30. And this actually allowed us to have longer checkins and actually do more relationship building. [00:51:00] Because back when we had just one hour meetings, it just felt really rushed. [00:51:03] Phibi: We had to check in super quick and then we had to do all our action items and it just felt very , limiting. And so that definit. And also recruiting more Pennington numbers definitely gave us more capacity and also more d and more experiences of folks coming in. And also having deeper and honest conversations or check-ins about the process. [00:51:21] Phibi: Where are we at? How is our capacity? Doing those type of checkings and finding the balance of , where. We should split up and do certain tasks or we should all, all come together to work on. I think that's a good balance to help those. Yeah. And so what do you think is the impact of having I guess longer and deeper, check-ins? [00:51:39] Phibi: Yeah I think having, longer check-ins allows you to settle into the space. Can be coming from anything before. And so I haven't had a deeper check in can be more real about what, where is your capacity at? And what can you more realistically take on? Yeah. [00:51:52] Phibi: All right. So thinking about the sustainability of this process again, what do you think could be done to make this [00:52:00] process more sustainable? Yeah. To make this process more sustainable? I'd say having a more solidified structure and action plan, and also making sure that we all feel really grounded in our values. And then also I check in on those values, do they still feel good? Do we change? Do we change anything? Add anything. And. Lesson that we learned was , you really have to do relationship building early on. . And it's you can't just put just the work first because then everyone will burn out. If you only do work, you need to check the balance. I wish. And something that we experimented with was working sessions. So outside of the meetings have additional time just to just chill and also do work and also just get to know each other. [00:52:36] Iris: Okay. Let's see. So next one, next set of questions is about the training content. What is thinking about the training content, is there anything that you think has worked really well in terms of the training that the counselors have been given and the peer counseling team has created? [00:52:53] Phibi: For the training content, we actually leaned a lot in the different community organizations that were in contact with. For example, the Asian [00:53:00] American peer counseling. We pulled some of their readings from the reading library to help us do work to figure out what the readings for the counselors. We both found their library and also with Project let's we we're in contact with them and we able to purchase the training for the ERs and also invite Stephanie from project lets to do a debrief, which is really nice. But also cost the budget too. And so for costed money as well. [00:53:22] Phibi: So having a balance of something that would cost money and also something that would be free as well, such as Asian American food concert, the time and also. Having a good mix of experiences and knowledge from the depend team. I know that some other folks are , they've done peer counseling before, or they even are therapists in training. [00:53:37] Iris: That's really important. Makes sense. Little more project labs this outside. And what it aepc those outside organizations that you've worked with. What do you think is an impact of kinda outsourcing some of that training to other organizations rather than having peer counsel team develop everything on their own? [00:53:54] Phibi: Yeah, I think impact one of the financial aspect of oh, you have to pay a good amount for project lots. And also but it did [00:54:00] also take some. Some pressure off of the team to to do more of  [00:54:03] Phibi: for example, I think crisis training is difficult and so I think having outsourcing that made things a lot easier. And working with folks who , have had real, hands on experience in the field before, which is why I'll talk about outsourcing think was helpful. We do have a balance. [00:54:17] Phibi: We have. Training session. That's just us. Yeah. [00:54:20] Iris: Okay. And then is there any additional training that you think maybe would've been helpful to include? Or it would be helpful to include in the future? Yeah.  [00:54:30] Phibi: Oh, and then I actually have one more answer for the previous question as well.  [00:54:33] Iris: Sorry. Yeah. Go for it. [00:54:34] Phibi: Yeah. And then also outsourcing to other organizations helps build relationships, with the other organizations too, for example, Asian American for counseling, they actually I think they were in the process trying to help other organizations start for counseling. And so it was kinda mutually beneficial and it didn't feel transactional and I felt I genuine to do this with them. And then to go back to the current question about what additional training would be helpful yeah, I think rather than outsourcing to have a [00:55:00] direct hands on training us with knowledge that we have I think that would be cool. And then also some somatic training or for example, How do you self-regulate your body when you're triggered? Those type of practices meditation or movement, I think those can help dreams.  [00:55:13] Iris: Awesome. Great. Okay. And these are the last set of questions. And this is thinking about the future of the program. So first do you think we should continue the program? What would the impact be if we did or if we didn't? [00:55:26] Phibi: I think we should continue the program. I think the only limiting factor is budget for training and just fast of the planning team at the time. I think, excuse me, I think it's hard to gauge how future peer counseling programs would be , because this palette took more than. I think two years to implement. And so for example, the next one would just be , it would just be ready to go probably a year, less than a year, season for example. And so it would take less time to do it. And so it would actually would be easier to continue the program I think cause we have the foundation already set up and would just be revising over time. [00:55:58] Phibi: I think in terms of more specific [00:56:00] impact, we'd be. We to get to train more and more folks at Lavender Phoenix. And it could even be in a similar way to how there's seasonal fundraising where folks get trained every season ish. And so eventually, if folks wanted to, good number of folks at Lavender Phoenix could be trained in prayer counseling at some point, which is really cool. And also it helps us meet our healing justice goal. And it also accomplish the task of Supporting community members along the way. [00:56:25] Iris: Awesome. Ok. And then my last question is, do you have any recommendations for continuing this program beyond the pilot?  [00:56:33] Iris: Yeah. Yeah, I think as I said, the seasonal format probably be good. But the key difference would. This pilot actually only has one session with a participant. But in the future, I think it would be great to have more than one session, multiple sessions. And impact of that would be , they see their pre more often or Yeah, more than once. Yeah, because you can't just settle everything in just one session. Usually that consistency is really helpful for folks.  [00:56:54] Iris: Yeah. Okay. Do you have anything else that you would to say? Any of these questions?  [00:56:59] Iris: I'm good.  [00:56:59] Iris: [00:57:00] Awesome. Okay, then will stop the right now. That concludes our episode if you want to organize alongside lavender Phoenix, you can join us. Follow us at L a V p H O E N I X laugh Phoenix on Instagram and find us at lavender, phoenix.org. [00:57:19]  Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us. Please check out our website, kpfa.org backslash program, backslash apex express to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex express is produced by Miko Lee Jalena Keane-Lee and Paige Chung and special editing by Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the KPFA staff for their support have a great night.  Apex express Asian Pacific expression. Unity and cultural coverage, [00:58:00] music and calendar,  The post APEX Express – 11.24.22 Lavender Phoenix's Peer Counseling Program by and for Trans Nonbinary Asian Pacific Islander people appeared first on KPFA.

Overview Matt has been a professional writer for over 40 years. One of the hardest aspects of writing is the beginning - both the beginning of the book but also starting a book. His Book https://www.amazon.com/Emirs-Falcon-Matt-Hughes-ebook/dp/B0BC4MPGD6?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1668717297&sr=8-1&linkCode=li2&tag=discoveredwordsmiths-20&linkId=41bf8e6aabddb0e0a1defec9fe4e8eeb&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_il YouTube https://youtu.be/MXiLdh7uefQ Transcript Let's move on and talk some author stuff. And we have a really good topic today. A lot of authors want to talk about finishing your book and that we're going to talk about beginnings. Before we do that, though, you have been writing for a long time, so what are some things and, and even your fiction, you've been writing for quite a while. What are some things that you've learned through that time that you're doing different with your writing than you used to? Matt: I was always pretty good right from the beginning. I, I sold my first short story that I ever wrote in 1982. And I've sold virtually everything I've written since. I had a knack for it. That's, and it certainly didn't hurt that I spent decades writing speeches that is writing for the voice and bringing across charact. To audiences who sit there saying, why am I listening to this guy? It's cause I can make you listen. But I know some things, and I think I knew them pretty early on. One thing, as I said before it's always about conflict ERs have to contend against each other and their circumstances. One thing that I find most obvious when I give advice or teach or do critiquing or editing for people who are trying to learn how to do this business is that you have to do a really good opening. And recently I looked at a few pages of someone I know. Who asked me to have a look at what he was doing. And it started with a guy getting up in the morning and going in the kitchen and having coffee and talking to his mother. And then his friend showed up and they talked a little and absolutely nothing happened. They all got along very well with each other and it was here's the thing. The real problem, and it's got nothing really to do with literary considerations. It has to do with how the market works, the industry agents and editors are the gatekeepers now. Used to be, you could write a thing and send it in to a publisher and there would be somebody there who would read it or read some of it and decide whether or not it was worth looking at. They were called slush readers, and Slush was the stuff that came in, as they would say over the transom. All of that ended decades ago. The corporations took over the independent publishers and turned them into profit centers. And one of the things that makes profit is to cut costs. So they got rid of all those slush readers, assistant editors, and they pushed the job of winnowing, triaging. They pushed that down onto the agents. The agents responded. They said, We're no longer gonna take 10%, we'll take 15%. Cuz now we have to do all this extra stuff. And that happened. So there's a story that a famous, very powerful New York agent tells at writers conferences. He says that they they get 800 queries a month. Seven to hundred to 810% of which they send a note saying, send us the synopsis and the first chapter. And then once a month, usually on a Friday afternoon, they gather only agents gather around a big table in the conference room and they have this stack of 70 or 81st chapters and they start to pass them around. And what they're doing is deciding. Am I gonna read this on my own time on the weekend? Cuz nobody ever has time to read. They're always so busy marketing, reviewing contracts, looking at manuscripts for people. They already represent the idea of reading something new and seeing maybe we'll represent this person that's done on their own time largely. So say there's six agents sitting around a table and down comes the...

Thank you for your understanding as we are handling a family emergency.  We'll be back, in the meantime, check out our friends The Night Post!  Will be available on Apple, Spotify, Goodpods, and more. Even after all these years, Earl doesn't understand Hiding Day. The Love Talker is a folk horror audio drama that launches in 2022. Visit https://thelovetalker.com/ for more information. Follow us: Twitter: @lovetalkerpod Instagram: @the_love_talker Facebook: @lovetalkerpod ​Somewhere on the borders between Virginia, North Carolina, and Tennessee in the most remote parts of the Appalachians, girls have gone missing for decades. When a young woman journeys there to the isolated community of Kilruane, she uncovers the truth about the mysterious man who wanders the woods and his connection to the missing women and puts herself in danger from those who want to protect the town and keep its secrets. Credits: Ghost 1: Ers https://cstng.cc/weirdmoviegeek Discord: Ers#2311 Ghost 2: Devyn Boer devynrboer@gmail.com Pa: W. Keith Tims Earl: MT Goins

What's it like to be responsible for investing $35 billion on behalf of state employees and retirees and managing a staff of 80 people? While at the Employees Retirement System of Texas, Tom Tull was involved with over 200 completed investment transactions totaling $13 billion encompassing private equity, private credit, private real estate, global credit, hedge funds, and special situations. He served in this capacity since 2009 and was responsible for all aspects of public and private markets investments. Prior to ERS, Tom was the Founding Partner of Gulfstream Global Investors and managed the pension investments for LTV Corporation and Cleveland-Cliffs Iron Company. He has degrees from the Ohio State University and Xavier University, is a CFA charterholder, and serves on the advisory board of several organizations, including our local CFA society in Dallas-Ft. Worth. Today, Tom joins me to share more about his professional journey, proud and challenging moments in his career, investment decisions, and aspirations for his legacy.  Disclaimer: All podcast discussions represent only the views and opinions of the host and guests. This podcast in no way constitutes investment advice and is not an offer to buy or sell any products or services. 

The federal COVID-19 public health emergency will likely continue through early April. Moderna released its latest efficacy finding for its updated Omicron booster. And emergency room physicians across the country say that ERs are at the breaking point and are asking for relief from the Biden administration. That's coming up on today's episode of Gist Healthcare Daily. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

On this episode of The Alliance U PRODcast, your host is Bryan Rojas, who wants to share how he helps clients and also gets referrals with the Emergency Response System. Find out how basic questions allows Rojas to help even more people via The Alliance's ERS. www.AndyAlbright.com @AndySAlbright https://arc.naaleads.com/ @NAALeadsTheWay @NationalAgentsAlliance #N247RU #DoTheDo #TheAlliance

"What exactly is implicit racial bias? How does it manifest in physician-patient interactions and what is the potential impact of such bias on oncology patient outcomes? In this ASCO Education Podcast episode, Dr. Lauren M. Hamel (Wayne State University) and Dr. Nimish Mohile (University of Rochester) share their insights and perspectives on these topics with host Alissa A. Thomas (University of Vermont). If you liked this episode, please subscribe. Learn more at https://education.asco.org, or email us at education@asco.org. Resources: Blindspot: The Hidden Biases of Good People by Mahzarin R. R. Banaji and Anthony G. Greenwald Implicit Associations Test 21-Day Racial Equity Challenge   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Nimish Mohile: We had a patient a few years ago who had presented to our clinic, who ended up having a diagnosis of primary central nervous system lymphoma, and she was a young black woman, and it took about nine months for her to get that diagnosis. She had gone into multiple emergency rooms, she was only 22, had not had prior interaction with the medical system, but based on some of her socioeconomic demographics, her skin color, she was never given the kinds of testing that any other patient I think should have gotten at that time.   Dr. Alissa Thomas: Hello, and welcome to another episode of ASCO Education podcast. Today's topic is, 'Implicit racial bias and its impact on patient care.' My name is Alissa Thomas, and I'm a Neurologist and Neuro-Oncologist at the University of Vermont College of Medicine. I'm delighted to introduce our two guest speakers; Dr. Lauren Hamel, who is an Associate Professor of Communication and Behavioral Oncology at Wayne State University, and the Co-program Leader of the Population Studies and Disparities Research Program of the Karmanos Cancer Institute. Her ongoing research explores racial attitudes in non-verbal behavior of oncology patients and physicians, and how those behaviors influence treatment decisions. Dr. Nimish Mohile is a Professor of Neurology and Oncology at The University of Rochester. He also serves as the Diversity Officer, Associate Chair for Career Development and Leadership, and Neuro-Oncology Division Chief. I'll get us started with the first question, really a definition. What do we mean by the term, ‘implicit racial bias'? Dr. Lauren Hamel: I'm happy to go first. I think understanding what the definition of what implicit racial bias is is really important. You know, for good or for ill, over the last few years, it's gotten a lot more attention. And I think what's important to remember about it is that it's not a cognizant or a conscious bias, and it really is implicit, and it really is more of an association than it is anything else. It's sort of like the built-up associations that we have for anything. You know, could be race, could be gender, any number of demographics, or other factors that make our lives as humans. So, you know, associating certain aspects of people with positive or negative valuations. I think when we're talking about implicit racial bias, it's kind of like the gut associations we have for members of different racial groups. So often, it's kind of paired with "white is good, black is bad." It's a very rudimentary description of it, but that's a real kind of basic association that this kind of definition is built around. Dr. Nimish Mohile: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that's a great discussion of what this is. I think it's really important for us to remember that these are really ingrained behaviors. It's, based on, you know, how we've been socialized and conditioned. And I think it's helpful to also put it in the framework of knowing that we all have some biases, we all probably have racial biases, and age biases, and other kinds of biases, and there's no sort of good or bad about having these biases. And the important part of this is, how do we recognize some of the biases that we have so that we can be more conscious about how we might fix those or think differently about the patients that we're seeing so that it doesn't result in actions that can be harmful. Dr. Lauren Hamel: Yeah, I agree with everything that Dr. Mohile just added. It is these ingrained associations. Really, it isn't about blaming ourselves for them because it's kind of the result of how our brains are structured. But to his point, it's once we know that we have them, and you know, we have data showing how they affect our behavior, it's then on us to identify them and then work to mitigate them. Dr. Alissa Thomas: Thank you. How do racial biases in patients and physicians influence treatment decisions or ultimately, how does this affect patient outcomes in Oncology? Dr. Lauren Hamel: You know, I think the direct relationship between certain biases and outcomes is still kind of being uncovered and investigated. But there are some interesting patterns that have been uncovered in data, specifically in the Oncology context too, because as you can imagine, a variety of professional organizations and groups examine the influence of bias. But just within Oncology, we see physicians who have higher levels of implicit bias who tend to see their patients who are black as less trustworthy, less educated, and less adherent to treatment recommendations. We also know that higher levels of implicit bias may be associated with less aggressive treatment programs recommended for black patients. We see some associations between levels of implicit bias and verbal dominance. But what was I think, especially interesting, is that we also see patterns of kind of perceptions from the patients that these physicians are communicating with. So, we see some manifestations in behavior, but we also see patients kind of “picking up” on some of these, whether or not they can identify them as bias necessarily. But for example, we see that patients who are seeing a physician with higher levels of implicit bias tend to see their physicians as less patient-centered, and less trustworthy. And I think that's a really important piece to identify because these biases are by definition kind of operating outside of our own consciousness, but they're manifesting themselves in a way that the people that we're communicating with are noticing. Dr. Nimish Mohile: We had a patient a few years ago who had presented to our clinic, who ended up having a diagnosis of primary central nervous system lymphoma, and she was a young black woman, and it took about nine months for her to get that diagnosis. She had gone into multiple emergency rooms, she was only 22, had not had prior interaction with the medical system, but based on some of her socioeconomic demographics, her skin color, she was never given the kinds of testing that any other patient I think should have gotten at that time. That was a real sort of wake-up call for our clinic, because as some of you know, this is a disease that we can really treat, especially in younger patients. So, there's real consequences to these kinds of biases. And some of them are personal, the ways they're ingrained in us, but some of them are built into our systems, and it's based on; what our ERs are designed like, where our hospital systems are, what kind of relationships we have with primary care physicians in different communities, what kind of access some of our patients have to primary care physicians. This patient in particular didn't have great access to primary care, so she didn't have this other team of people to advocate for her and to say, "Hey, you know, this is something really different in this patient, and we need to take this seriously." So, I think it can get complicated as we think about biases in ourselves, in other people, in the whole health system, and then also as we get out of our health system, some of these things are so influenced by what's going on in our communities. Dr. Lauren Hamel: Yeah, I think that's a really important point. At least with my work, I examine kind of at the interpersonal level, but these biases, as Dr. Mohile points out, exist in all levels of our society, and they interact, and they're-- I don't want to say additive, it's probably much more exponential. But yeah, it's a layer, on top of layer, on top of layer problem. Dr. Alissa Thomas: So, Dr. Mohile, you commented earlier that part of it is recognizing these biases in ourselves. Can you discuss how we might approach this with the impact of an anti-racism education program has been in your department and applications for that? Dr. Nimish Mohile: So, we've worked on anti-racism in our department on a couple of levels. One of the main levels is just building awareness for individuals to understand that they have biases, that they have racial biases, and starting to understand why they have those. So, we've gone through exercises like book clubs and talks, for people to really do some of that self-reflective work to understand how they've been conditioned as they grew up. I've personally done that and have found it very revealing and understood some of the biases that I grew up with based on people I was around, and based on my schools, and based on segregation within my school systems. So, I think that that's one piece of it. I think another piece is we don't often get taught about the history of racism in the United States, and how widespread it is. It's a very small part of our curriculums, and I think we have to take it upon ourselves now in our medical systems to go through that education. Education that we probably should have had all through elementary school, high school, college, we have to do that learning now because then we can really start seeing that impact of race on our society. And I think for physicians specifically, what is that impact of racism on patient care in our medical systems and how it's been ingrained in US healthcare. Understanding that we had segregated hospitals right until the 1960s, those are all things that were in the lifetimes of still practicing Oncologists. One of the things we did for our other professional society that I belong to, The American Academy of Neurology, is we did develop an anti-racism education program that focused on understanding this history and this historical lens in healthcare, reviewing the impact that anti-racism has on our colleagues. So, what does that mean for black physicians or physicians from other underrepresented groups and how they interact with our health systems, how they're treated, what does it mean for their roles in academic departments? Then talking about how we can connect being anti-racist with the goals of health equity. So, how can we change the systems that we have control of to have healthcare that's more fair? And then finally, how do we engage trainees and physicians in really developing anti-racism action plans? One of the important things about anti-racism is that you really have to be active, it's not a passive experience. You have to take action to change all these systems around us that are embedded with racism. Dr. Alissa Thomas: Thank you. Along the same line, Dr. Hamel, you recently co-authored a study of a longitudinal implicit bias training curriculum. And can you tell us something about this project and what's come of it? Dr. Lauren Hamel: Yeah, so it came about a little more than a year ago and kind of coincided happily with an executive directive made by our state's governor requiring implicit bias training, so we were able to kind of design it so it met those requirements. But really what the goal is, is to approach implicit bias with a 360 view. So, what are all of the issues related to it? What are the scientific underpinnings? What are the measurements? What are the pros and cons of those measurements and what we've used, and what they've shown in terms of influence on our individual behavior, our decision-making, kind of how we relate to people who might be different than us. And certainly, expanding beyond racial groups — we've looked at gender, we're looking at age, things like structural racism. So, we're trying to kind of have a comprehensive view of it. And I think, you know, one thing, and it sounds like Dr. Mohile and his group have done a really nice job of tracking what happens after those. Because, you know, I think one-off sessions are better than nothing, certainly. Awareness is critical, but also, tracking like, what does this do for our attitudes, perceptions, and behavior? And that's not easy. And so really, you know, trying to invest in tracking how things change. So, we've had a full year of assessments, we've seen some improvements in people's attitudes and perceptions. But now what we really need to start doing is tracking certain behavioral aspects, and I think that's where the next step needs to be. Our next year is just about to kick off in a couple of weeks. So, I think that that's where we need to start putting our effort where it's—okay, we've gotten kind of institutional support, the leaders of both the University's School of Medicine and also the Cancer Institute have been encouraging this, which I think is really critical, because even though it's a lot of individual work if you want these changes, you really have to have the support and buy-in from the leaders of the institution. So, we've got that, we have interest, you know, we've established a really consistent and impressive participation in terms of each session. We've had upwards of 200 people attending each session, so people want this information. Now, according to the state, they also are required to have it. So, I think building up on that now, we've established a lot of good pieces of it, but now let's start doing a better job of tracking how does this affect long-term perceptions, attitudes, and behavior. Dr. Nimish Mohile: Every cancer center and department should be doing what Dr. Hamel is doing. The risk of the one-off trainings is that people come out of an implicit bias workshop and think, “Well, I'm fixed. I don't need this anymore, now I can go on and take care of patients without bias.” And you really need that time to really work on those things and start to fix some of those attitudes that we have. Dr. Lauren Hamel: Yeah. Because the associations get built up over a lifetime. You know, that's not something you're going to fix in an hour. It's a campaign, it's a marathon, to be sure. Dr. Alissa Thomas: So, you've both touched on something that a lot of this is about perception, and it's not just what we say verbally, but non-verbal behavior. It plays into implicit racial bias. Dr. Hamel, can you talk a little about your study of non-verbal synchrony, and can you describe differences between non-verbal behavior with doctors and patients of the same race compared to those of different races? Dr. Lauren Hamel: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, a lot of my work focuses on nonverbal behaviors. On the study you referenced, we were looking at something a little bit more kind of in line with how implicit bias acts. It sort of manifested unconsciously. So, this whole idea of non-verbal synchrony is kind of this non-conscious coordination of movement that happens between two people. And this is a construct that's been studied for decades in a number of settings, but we were the first to be able to examine it in an oncology setting, and also comparing diads of different racial makeup. We were able to take like real video-recorded data of naturally-occurring treatment discussions. We had a set of videos that included black patients in a similar set with white patients. And we used automated software to track their behavior and determine how coordinated they were over time. We actually observed more coordinated behavior between black patients and their physicians compared to white patients and their physicians. Some literature is non-verbal synchrony is sort of seen as always good, and there's also some new data showing that maybe it could be evidence of trying to repair a relationship. We're very early phases, I'm not in a position to offer kind of a best practice with this, but I think the point is, is that we do see differences. There is a coordinated behavioral difference between dyads. We're also starting to look at how that level of coordination is influenced by attitudes including implicit bias. So, I think identifying a difference is important, but now I think it's on us to now figure it out. Like, what is that the result of? And then, what does that do for the patient in terms of short and long-term outcomes? So, does that affect their perceptions of their physician? Does it affect their perceptions of the recommended treatment? Does it affect adherence to that treatment? Dr. Alissa Thomas: How can we do better? How can doctors improve non-verbal and verbal communication methods with our patients? Dr. Nimish Mohile: I can speak a little bit about verbal communication. I think this work on non-verbal communication is fascinating. I'd love to hear where that comes out because it's something I think we're not really thinking about very much, and I'm not surprised that there's differences there. I think sometimes with communication, just having an awareness in that you might be communicating differently with someone can be helpful. In many of our institutions, we sometimes go through coaching with our communication, particularly with Oncology patients, where you have someone witnessing how you're interacting with that patient, and what kind of verbal and non-verbal cues you're giving, how you make eye contact. I think there's models there that we could really be thinking about, not just focused on some of the stuff that oncology has been focused on, like, delivering bad news or end-of-life discussions, but also on these issues of racial bias or age bias, and see what we could do differently in those areas. Dr. Lauren Hamel: Yeah, I completely agree. And I think decades of research have shown that patient-centered communication skills are something that can be taught, learned, and improved upon. Maybe not just regarding the issues related to racial bias and other racial attitudes, but you know, for helping to improve a number of outcomes for patients. So, I think, that kind of focus, I mean there are very clear, well-established frameworks and methods around that, I think that was just, you know, something we already have in our toolbox that we can use. But I think also things like building up trust within a community, I think is critical, for really any kind of medical institution that operates within a community should be, you know, trusted by the community it's in. And there's a number of strategies that can be implemented to build up that level of trust. So, you're kind of looking at like the outside going in. A lot of these the data that I'm referring to right now are coming out of the primary care setting. But I think people like us that are in an Oncology setting are certainly well poised to start testing these in Outpatient Oncology clinics. And I think just like what we're doing right now, making the topic of race, racism, implicit bias, something that we can have in a number of settings. And I think Dr. Mohile made a really good point. Like, we're not taught this like we're taught like grammar, and, you know, math. This is a part of our lives too, and you know, it's having big effects on huge swaths of our population. So, I think normalizing these conversations is a really important step, too. Dr. Nimish Mohile: In the United States, we're particularly uncomfortable talking about racism. Even within our medical teams, we don't know how to do that. So, what do you do if you're on rounds and you see another provider have some kind of verbal or non-verbal communication that, you know, might not be appropriate, or you think that there's a racial bias in the way we're treating or talking to a patient? That's not something we know how to deal with. We don't know how to bring that up. And so, I think that that's something that within health systems, we need to start working on. We have great models for this. When we think about the transitions we've made over the last 20 years in patient safety, we have elevated these conversations about patient safety. If there's a medical error by anyone on a team, it's something we're open to discussing, not blaming, and then really having a conversation about how can we fix this next time. You know, can we work towards doing that with something like racial bias? One of the things we've started doing in our department is that one of our mortality and morbidity conferences each year is focused on racism. So, a scenario where we think that there might have been differing treatment to a patient based on race, and then having an open discussion about that, going through some of the literature about that, and just practicing some of those conversations with each other as faculty, and medical providers, physicians, nurses, advanced practice providers, of being able to name racism as one of these problems. And then we really try to model that behavior on teaching rounds, so that with our medical students and residents, and fellows, we're also having these conversations about how could racism be at play in this patient's story, and how they got to their diagnosis, and in their outcomes, and an acknowledgement that racism is having some effect on this patient's ability to get screened for cancer, and potentially, their ability to have the same survival as another patient. Dr. Alissa Thomas: Thank you. That's so helpful to think about how to elevate this through departments and people who may be less aware of the issue and raising awareness. You both have touched a lot on communication between patients and providers, and there's a theme here that it's not just the doctor-patient relationship, but also the patient's community, and the medical team, that support that physician. Can you elaborate a little bit more about that, about how we communicate to the patient and the community they represent, and the provider and the team that they represent? Dr. Lauren Hamel: Having active, mature, genuine involvement of community members within a cancer hospital or cancer institute, I think is really important. I know my work has benefited from those who have come before me that established really strong connections with people who are, either survivors, care caregivers, advocates, you know, people who are very devoted to their particular neighborhood, community, that work really closely with us and provide feedback on a lot of the interventions that we design. So, one thing that I work in with all of my research is, as I'm developing an intervention that I think will improve either communication with a physician or another care provider, I certainly would never implement that without getting that thoroughly vetted by the people who it's going to affect. My clinician colleagues are always really generous with their time. It's a little bit more challenging to get community member feedback, but I do believe that it is, I mean, not just worth it for my own research success, but also for the mission and the purpose of what we're trying to do here. So, if you seek out feedback from a community group or community members who are willing to give you their honest opinion, and you know, you have to be in a position to receive that feedback with grace and professionalism, I think that's an important piece of it. Like, you want to have that connection, you don't want to just kind of have a checkbox. You know, you really want them involved in what you're doing. I'm using my own personal experience, but I'm sure there's far greater levels of, you know, system-level issues where something similar could be implemented. Dr. Nimish Mohile: I agree with that. I think this is really hard, and I think our medical systems are just starting to learn how to do some of this work. So, I'd echo what Dr. Hamel said about really getting input from members of those communities. I think many cancer centers are trying to do more outreach into communities, and that's not that easy. We have to really start by kind of building that trust, and building a philosophy where it's really about helping that community, as opposed to getting more patients from that community, or getting more trial participants from that community, or being able to check off boxes for our NIH grants from those communities. It really needs to be a genuine approach of, what does this community need? Because we don't often know that answer. And so, we have to start with that curiosity, and then determine how can we help those communities with the resources that we have. And I think cancer centers can do this optimally if the entire health system does that, that's where you can really start building some of that trust. Dr. Alissa Thomas: Thank you. For those of us that want to know more, would you be able to share some practical tools or resources that are available for healthcare professionals who want to learn more about implicit racial bias, either on an individual or institutional level? Dr. Lauren Hamel: I think one of the first things someone can do is take an Implicit Association Test, or an IAT, as it's often referred to. They're all housed at Project Implicit, at Harvard's website - google IAT, it'll take you right there. No identifiable data are collected from the individual test taker, but it gives people a sense of what's being measured. You know, it's not a character assessment, it's a measure that's designed to test your associations. And I think just having that experience makes you a much more informed consumer of this kind of science because I think it's important to keep a critical eye. You know, if we're scientists, we have to be critical. And I think this really helps people kind of get to a point where they can understand the science a little bit more effectively, but maybe also can reduce a little defensiveness that inevitably comes up when these kinds of data are discussed. So, I would do that. And then the second thing would be, there's a wonderful book called, Blindspot: Hidden Biases of Good People, it's written by Doctors Greenwald and Banaji, and they are basically credited for creating the Implicit Association Test, as we know it. It's a relatively easy read, and it can really give you a sense of how these kinds of associations affect our decision-making and communications. I would take those two, as a way to start. Dr. Nimish Mohile: I agree with both of those. I'd say that many of our health systems have implicit bias workshops and trainings, and sometimes they're online, sometimes they're in person. They do have varying sort of quality. I encourage people to just look at those trainings a little bit differently than they look at all of the other trainings that we're forced to do. To go into those with a little bit of an open mind and a learning experience, rather than one to just sort of check boxes and move on. I think you can learn some things about yourself from them. One of the things I encourage folks to do if they're interested in more information about anti-racism is to do something like the 21-day Racial Equity Challenge - you can Google that. Kind of small bite-size openings, and then there's talks about biases, but also helps you sort of understand some of the foundations of racial inequity in this country. Dr. Alissa Thomas: Thank you so much. That's all the time we have for today. I really want to say thank you to Dr. Hamel, and Dr. Mohile for sharing your perspectives on addressing implicit racial bias in oncology, and tips for improving communication with patients and providing culturally-sensitive care. And thank you to ASCO for providing this platform for us to discuss. Thank you to all of our listeners, we appreciate you turning into this episode of ASCO Education podcast.   Thank you for listening to the ASCO Education podcast. To stay up to date with the latest episodes, please click," Subscribe." Let us know what you think by leaving a review. For more information, visit the Comprehensive Education Center, at: education.asco.org. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy, should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.  

This fall, most Canadian kids returned to school and daycare with few or no COVID-19 measures. Beyond the coronavirus itself, that's meant all sorts of other viruses have started circulating more widely among children — which is, in some ways, a return to normal. But some are spreading earlier in the season than usual, and hospitals across Canada are reporting a surge in child admissions. Data from Ontario says triple the seasonal average of kids have been heading to the province's ERs with respiratory illnesses. Today, Dr. Fatima Kakkar returns to explain what's driving the surge of kids' admissions, and address parents' concerns over drug shortages and their children's immune systems. She's an infectious diseases pediatrician at Sainte-Justine Hospital in Montreal.

Disappointing rates of child and adolescent vaccination for COVID are colliding with an intensifying seasonal storm of viral illnesses including flu and RSV. ERs and pediatric ICU beds are already filling up in some areas and many more kids will miss precious school time on top of pandemic learning loss. Pediatrician Dr. Megan Tschudy talks with Stephanie Desmon about the importance of vaccination in prevention and protection, a worsening child and adolescent mental health crisis, and why the pandemic's lingering aftershocks are far from over.

A somewhat crunchier than usual Wednesday crossword by Ethan Zou and Tomas Spiers, at least for one of our dynamic duo: both were dazzled by a variety of clues that spanned the 13th to the 21st centuries and a grid that was suffused with ERs -- for which we were grateful, not only because of the interesting theme, but also for the excuse to use the word suffuse in a sentence

Civil Eats reporter and former host of the Farm Report, Lisa Held, was at the conference and can give listeners an informed recap of this long overdue conference. From root causes of hunger, to expanding the role of government in nutrition science, and much more, this conference was based on 5 Pillars of action proposed by the Biden Administration. Learning what those goals are and the proposals to achieve them can help us all understand why America lags in public health, and inform who we vote for in the future.Heritage Radio Network is a listener supported nonprofit podcast network. Support What Doesn't Kill You by becoming a member!What Doesn't Kill You is Powered by Simplecast.

Civil Eats reporter and former host of the Farm Report, Lisa Held, was at the conference and can give listeners an informed recap of this long overdue conference. From root causes of hunger, to expanding the role of government in nutrition science, and much more, this conference was based on 5 Pillars of action proposed by the Biden Administration. Learning what those goals are and the proposals to achieve them can help us all understand why America lags in public health, and inform who we vote for in the future.Heritage Radio Network is a listener supported nonprofit podcast network. Support What Doesn't Kill You by becoming a member!What Doesn't Kill You is Powered by Simplecast.

A deadly combination of Xylazine, an animal tranquilizer, and fentanyl, resulted in 221 overdose deaths up to August this year, up from 141 deaths for the full year 2020, according to the Connecticut Chief Medical Examiner's Office.This hour on Where We Live, we look at the fentanyl crisis. Data from the state Department of Public health show that 86% of the 1,524 overdose deaths in 2021 were caused by fentanyl.We hear from a mother turned activist about her son Alec, who died of a fentanyl overdose four years ago, and the ongoing struggle to overcome stigma and barriers to care, including insurance coverage.We also talk about how synthetic opioids are being packaged in ways that appear attractive to children and youth, including colorful candy.What are hospital ERs doing to get people the care they need at a time of bed shortages?Later, we hear about a soon-to-be-launched school program aimed at preventing substance misuse by teens and children. GUESTS:  Dita Bhargava: Ambassador at Shatterproof. Mother of Alec, who died of a fentanyl overdose in 2018. Dr. Kathryn Hawk: Associate Professor of Emergency Medicine at the Yale School of Public Health and the Program in Addiction Medicine. Bianca Irizarry: Consultant, State Education Resource Center, and Coordinator of the school- based Center for Preventive Education and Advocacy. Support the show: http://wnpr.org/donateSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today we were joined by Karen Hawley Miles who is the president and CEO of Education Resource Strategies, Inc (ERS). ERS is a national non-profit that partners with district, school, and state leaders to transform how they use resources (people, time, and money) so that every school prepares every child for tomorrow, no matter their race or income. In this episode, Karen shares what this process may look like for schools they work with as well as their current efforts to support school funding decision-making, especially with special education teachers in mind.   Learn more about ERS and the ways in which they are supporting district and school leaders in their efforts to transform systems through strategic resource decisions.   Mentioned People/Resources: ERS's website: erstrategies.org EALA's website: www.educatingalllearners.org   Full Transcript: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBRp1pxEZ3zuctMHdEhYJ4bn6vLal4tc/view?usp=sharing

"My plea to progressives is that it is ultimately less progressive to be using messages that you know are less effective. The stakes are too high for us to not be rigorously disciplined.” On June 24, the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, upending nearly 50 years of precedent that protected the right to abortion in the United States. Since then, over a dozen states have enacted a full ban on abortion, with several others instituting a partial ban or other restrictions. We've seen horrifying stories emerge across the country in the wake of the decision, from a 10-year-old rape victim in Ohio forced to cross state lines to terminate her pregnancy, to nurses caring for sexual assault victims in ERs hesitating to provide morning-after contraception for fear it would be considered an abortion drug, to a Tennesee woman told by her state representative that discarding her embryos after IVF would be in violation of the state's abortion ban. Data for Progress has been in the field extensively since Roe v. Wade was overturned to understand where public opinion falls on this critical issue and to identify the most effective and persuasive messages that move voters in support of reproductive rights. In today's episode, Marcela and McKenzie break down our comprehensive polling and message testing and provide critical guidance to Democrats campaigning on abortion over the next five weeks.    Questions? Comments? Feedback? Email us at info@dataforprogress.org.   About Data For Progress Our Polling Methodology   New York Times: Kansas Rejects Abortion Amendment: Full Election Results - The New York Times Data for Progress: A Majority of Voters Fear For Their Rights Post-Roe Data for Progress: Young Voters Are More Likely to Prioritize Abortion Rights in Upcoming Midterms Data for Progress: Knowing Someone Who Has Had an Abortion Correlates with Increased Support for Abortion Rights Data for Progress: Congresswoman Lee: We Need Safe and Legal Abortion Access Now PRODUCED BY: Marcela Mulholland McKenzie Wilson Carly Berke Natasha Chisholm MUSIC BY: chelliah   MIXED BY: Jack Wright   COVER DESIGN BY: Ed Ryan   SPECIAL THANKS TO: Blue Rose Research

If you think you know this book, well think again! You haven't seen it from this perspective! In our ever changing world, it's critical to keep up with our thoughts so that we don't get left behind. This means evolving what we know by "rethinking" and asking questions about our current beliefs and identity. Join us here at ERS as we give you the full summary of Think Again by Adam Grant, and learn how to have the right mindset with yourself and your audience. Part I. Individual Rethinking- Updating Our Own Views A Preacher, a Prosecutor, a Politician, and a Scientist Walk into Your Mind The Armchair Quarterback and the Imposter: Finding the Sweet Spot of Confidence The Joy of Being Wrong: The Thrill of Not Believing Everything You Think The Good Fight Club: The Psychology of Constructive Conflict Part II. Interpersonal Rethinking- Opening Other People's Minds Dances with Foes: How to Win Debates and Influence People Bad Blood on the Diamond: Diminishing Prejudice by Destabilizing Stereotypes Vaccine Whisperers and Mild-Mannered Interrogators: How the Right Kind of Listening Motivates Popele to Change Part II. Collective Rethinking- Creating Communities of Lifelong Learners Charged Conversations: Depolarizing Our Divided Discussions Rewriting the Textbook: Teaching Students to Question Knowledge That's Not the Way We've Always Done It: Building Cultures of Learning at Work Part IV: Conclusion Escaping Tunnel Vision: Reconsidering Our Best-Laid Career and Life Plans --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/eatreadsleep/support

This episode is part of a special series that focuses on organizations that received grant funding from the COPIC Medical Foundation for initiatives that address the issue of reducing fragmentation across care settings. Dr. Zacharias welcomes two guests from the Mile High Health Alliance: Dede de Percin, Executive Director, and Vicente Cardona, Program Manager. Dede and Vicente highlight how the grant was used to support the “Orange Flag” Project—an initiative that uses historic, predictive, and real-time data to inform emergency department personnel of a patient's high utilization of emergency services to aid in care coordination. They talk about approaching the issue from a grassroots and systems level, the importance of collaboration with other organizations, what data tells us about high utilizers of ERs, and how they are working with medical providers to initiate protocols to improve outcomes. Email our show: wnlpodcast@copic.comFor more information on the guest in our show please visit : http://milehighhealthalliance.org/

The copyright on Winnie-the-Pooh by A. A. Milne officially moved into the public domain this year. What does that actually mean?  How might nonprofit's use public domain characters like this to help tell their story? Tara Jacobson is the owner of MarketingArtfully.com with over 20 years experience in the marketing industry. She helps us break down what is possible and comes up with creative ways nonprofit causes might use the IP.    Resource links A lot of websites were shared on this awesome episode, here are the URLs mentioned. Creative Commons Trademark/Copyright search TESS RedBubble.com https://creativemarket.com/  https://morguefile.com/  https://fiverr.com Canva.com Openai.com Public Domain Story List MarketingArtfully.com https://artsyfartsylife.com/    About Tara Jacobson Tara Jacobson is the owner of MarketingArtfully.com with over 20 years experience in the marketing industry which translates into highly successful marketing systems for her “DIY” and entrepreneur clients. Tara's strong history in Psychology, Entrepreneurship, and Creativity, combined with her 100 miles per hour, “tell it like it is” personality have earned her the title “The Queen of Marketing Ahhh's” from her raving fans. Tara brings a true small and medium sized business perspective to her work. She has talked with over 1,000 small biz owners about their goals, plans and dreams, helping them to grow and make sure that their marketing increases their intended efforts!   Rough Transcript   [00:00:00] George: We have a very interesting guest who is, I'll just say it very brave because she is coming in because I reached out to her completely cold, like completely cold. I'm sitting there looking up information about creative ways of using public domain characters and works and none other than marketing, artfully.com. [00:00:50] And then I reached out to the owner and Tara Jacobson was nice enough as the owner of marketing, fully marketing artfully com. She has over 20 years experience in the marketing industry, but is, I would say coming at this as an outsider to the nonprofit and social impact industry in her work with over thousands of small and mid-size businesses and in this world. [00:01:13] Tara, can you tell us maybe a bit more about your work and what. [00:01:18] Tara: So I started internet marketing and making websites with like dream Weaver and all of that back in the day. Merge two, I was a realtor for a couple of years. That was interesting. And then I owned a marketing company for years and one of the reasons why I got so interested in. [00:01:37] More so trademark and copyright and later on, interested in public domain is because it's I believe it's $600. You get fined as a business. If you use somebody's copyrighted or trademarked work and it's $10,000, if you do it for a client. So I was like, I have always bought every picture I've ever owned. [00:02:04] I've always had. Oh shoot. What it was called, where the domain of where you got your things and yeah. You sourced the information and yeah that to me was super important years ago when I was posting things for people, making social media graphics, things like that. [00:02:23] And I got really interested in it. So we're gonna talk today. I'm gonna give you a little course in all of the D. Terms that are gonna come up. And then I love that we're gonna brainstorm some ways that nonprofits can use 'em the only nonprofit I've ever been involved in was the Colorado house rabbit society. [00:02:49] I do have a blog post on my website about how to get volunteers, cuz they were really bad at it. And so I did I did write them a blog post on how to get volunteers, but I haven't worked tons with nonprofits, but I've worked with all kinds of businesses over the years, small businesses and medium size SSEs and small business. [00:03:13] George: Yeah. And I think that's helpful context too, to say, like what's at stake. Why do I care about this on one end? There's the penalty side, which is frankly, not as much fun as the creative, which we'll get to, but I'll just say from personal experience, we had interns writing content at whole whale. [00:03:32] Seven years ago, I get this email from it's like a take down notice, but also basically we used like a picture of a squirrel with some nuts that somebody just Google. Just Google the image and the content really wasn't used at all. And we got fined. I will say I, I can't officially say, but it is in the thousands of dollars for a picture, an intern put on our website like a decade ago. [00:03:57] Like it's very real what you're talking about and very painful. So I think your note, I'll just put an exclamation point on. It's worth checking because the algorithms that people have for quickly searching and scanning websites have improved for scanning for this type of copyrighted work, all righty onto you. [00:04:17] What, and there's [00:04:18] Tara: so much available for free or a very little money. I'm gonna explain the difference, how you get super free stuff, and then how you get like really tiny money. And to me, tiny money is under $10. Maybe not under $300, I'm talking tiny money. So we're gonna start off by talking about what trademark is. [00:04:47] So trademark gets talked about a lot and trademark is just the words. So you, so Nike's swoosh. The picture of it is copyrighted because it's an image, but the word just do it is trademarked and you can't use those kind of terms. What you're talking about with the creative and the marketing, and maybe pictures for blogs and maybe pictures for things to sell or images for things to sell. [00:05:17] Is called copyright because copyright covers artistic things like pictures poems, books, things like that. And things come out of copyright. I looked it up after 70 years. So things before 1924 are in the public domain right now. And something super exciting came into the public domain this year, which was the original poo bear. [00:05:46] And [00:05:47] George: all the characters, right? So everything from the mil books are public domain. [00:05:53] Tara: Yeah. And there's illustrations of P bear and EOR and the hundred acre words and things like that, that people truly have a heartfelt connection to. So if you're talking about doing something that is going to help a nonprofit, you're not looking for something that's going to. [00:06:16] Be mercenary or something like that. You want something that people can go back to their childhood and think, oh my gosh, it's poo bear. I love poo. And there's a whole list of and you can put a link on it. I have a whole list on my website of stories that are in the public. So Rapunzel, Rapunzel it down. [00:06:47] Your hair is in the public domain. So that is something that people can use. Oh, we have to talk about public domain too. But that is a story that people can use. What they can't use is tangled. Tangled is the dignified version of. Yeah, Rapunzel, let down my hair. So what you wanna do is you wanna make sure that anything you're looking to use, there's a database. [00:07:19] It's the PT, PTO database. It's called test T E S S. If you just search test on. Google, they have a way to search for it. And you put in only look for live ones. So if you look for live and dead ones, then you're gonna get a lot. But we only care about the ones that are live right now. And so you can find out if something is in the public domain is a avail, is copyrighted or not. [00:07:46] Now public domain is way more just than things that have gone on a copyright or that aren't trademarked. There are things called creative commons where an artist or a writer or people like that will take their items and file them as creative commons. Now you want what's called creative commons. Oh zero zero. [00:08:12] And that means they hold no They don't have any license on it. Where if it's just like a plain creative comments, a lot of times they'll exclude a commercial license, even though you're a nonprofit, if you're selling something commercially, that would be violating the terms of that license. And you can find all kinds of things doing that search for pictures, for your website, for things like that. [00:08:38] Now there are places that say they. Creative commons things like morgue file has a lot of pictures on it. It's just one of the places. And, but they don't have a vetting process. They rely on the people, uploading the pictures to do it. So we're gonna talk for just a wee minute about why sometimes it's better to purchase it than not. [00:09:05] Okay. Even if you're using something that's in the public domain. So we're gonna talk about poo. Because I love him and absolutely but you could go, you could grab a book off the shelf. You could download that you could scan that image. You could fix all of the little problems with a graphic. [00:09:29] Program like Photoshop and make sure it's in the proper condition to use on a t-shirt or use on postcards or things like that. Or you can go to a place like creative market where somebody has already done that for you. Like an artist has already done all those steps. And you buy it with a commercial license. [00:09:52] Usually they're about $11, I think, to get like a set of P bear images. Alison Wonderland is in the public domain. So you can use Alison Wonderland. Now they have, somebody has trademarked Allison Wonderland on t-shirts. So you still, even if it's in the public domain, you always wanna go check the trademark database. [00:10:14] It's not, there's no like blanket, these are all safe and these are not all safe. You always wanna go and check. So does, [00:10:22] George: so the trademark database, what does that look like? Is that tests or is that a different that's test? Yeah, no [00:10:27] Tara: that's tests and all you do is you put you put in Alison Wonderland in tests and click live and click search, and then it'll show you what category of things are. [00:10:42] Ex like you have to exclude. So say it says t-shirt clothing. I can't remember what's all in that category, but you could make greeting cards. Nobody's trademarked that for greeting cards. So that's why you wanna check. So even if you think, oh my gosh, Allison wonderlands gone. It doesn't mean it is. [00:11:04] If you're not using it on the thing, they've trademarked it for. And I have such a good example that I looked up for you. So the word elf. Is trademark for lighters, photography, backdrop, and amplifiers three different categories. You can't use it for that. But as of right now, if you wanted to use it on a t-shirt you be, it's not just the, you're gonna put a picture of an L on a t-shirt and you're and for nonprofits, you may be able to avoid some of these problems, because you're functionally selling. to your constituents rather than as much trying to sell internationally. Sometimes you may wanna sell internationally, but if you're doing a fundraiser internally and you're not gonna be advertising it online or in a huge way, then you may be able to get away with it. [00:12:08] If they do send you a cease desist, then you have made commercial money on it though they can claw back that money. So it's worth looking. [00:12:16] George: Yeah this complicates it a bit more because prior to even you saying that, I just assumed if it's in the public domain, I'm looking at a picture of Winnie the poo. [00:12:26] Somebody could have trademarked that on a t-shirt. So I'm like, oh, I can spin up my t-shirts with Winnie the poo on it. [00:12:32] Tara: No, they can't trademark the picture of Winnie the poo they could tra they could, and they can't copyright it because the copyright belongs to AA. So Uhuh, the original artwork is in the public domain. [00:12:49] What they could do is, and it would take 'em a while to do it, cuz they have to show the first time the trademark, the word was used in the public and then they have to pay money to get it. It's about 12, $1,200 to get the trademark and then they have to go through a whole process where it's vet. So you and they won't go backwards. So if you were to sell a Winnie, the POH says, Winnie the poo, it's the poo bear old P bear you're done. And in two years, somebody trademarks Winnie the poo and you had used it. They don't go backwards. Does that [00:13:26] George: help at all? You know what it helps with reminding folks that just because it's on that list, you should double check the database, especially if you're going to put marketing power behind it, putting it on products and as you go to use it, but. [00:13:40] Again, though, is a massive shopping list because there are some edge cases maybe you can't put poo on a lighter, but [00:13:50] Tara: no, you can't put, you can't put an El on a lighter [00:13:53] George: I know let's get your, let's get it straight. Elves, not okay. Poo, like we'll just memorize whole thing. Poo's good. He's good to go on a lighter. [00:14:00] There's that huge the movie's coming out, right? They did a horror movie with Winnie the. Can drop this season because you can do [00:14:12] Tara: that. You can do that now. And so all of these amazing things that people, and it's not even just, so Walt Disney was brilliant. He took over so many fairy tales. [00:14:31] Yeah. And stole them for him. There is a real beauty and the beast story that is an old fable from like, When the black plague was around that he then made specific. Now you can do all kinds of things with beauty and the beast. You just can't do the bell in the yellow there iconography, right? [00:14:58] Yeah. Okay. And then spec. So that's from both the old movie and the new movie, and then you can't do, and then you can, but there's so many things you can do. Like sleeping. Beauty is you can say sleeping beauty. He doesn't own sleeping beauty. He owns Aurora because that wasn't the name of the original sleeping beauty. [00:15:22] It was. Sister. And so he picked that one. So then you wanna really try, I do know a lot about this. You wanna try to make sure that something isn't copyrighted or trademarked before you use it and just BEC and do not go to Etsy, do not go to anywhere and do a search and think, oh, look, this is all over Etsy. [00:15:46] It must be okay. That's not how the world works. [00:15:50] George: Yeah, you're really talking about the original, like name of the character as presented essentially in the trademark language, in the copyright public domain and the images I'm looking through your piece on Allison Wonderland. You may have that image of Allison, a blue dress and the the mad hat, or it is a very different look, frankly, but it's still recognizable as the charact. [00:16:16] but it doesn't necessarily have that immediate brand recognition that essentially that's a Disney version Disney, it Disney it. But right now, for instance there's two movies about pinoc one on, I think Netflix and one on Disney as a rerelease guess what, that's another story similar to, as you just mentioned beauty and the beast that you [00:16:35] Tara: can run with. [00:16:36] Yeah, there are so many things. And oh and they're really mad about this, but I think in the next year it might be next year, Nikki's coming [00:16:45] George: to town. [00:16:47] Tara: Old Mickey, like really old Mickey. Oh, G Mickey. Yeah. OG Mickey is coming out of copyright. And so that's, what's fun about it to me. Like I, I make stuff for now I make artwork. [00:17:03] I'm an artist now. And I make artwork. So I made my own version of the mad hatch actress who does not look like Johnny Depp. It doesn't look like Disney's version. She's a woman in a hat and the original Alison Wonderland had that 10 and 10, six thing in her hat. And so she's very recognizable as Alison Wonderland, as the Matt had her from Allison Wonderland, but she's a feminist version. [00:17:41] George: So now we get into maybe some of that creative elements, unless there's some more guardrails you wanna toss [00:17:45] Tara: out for folks. Nope. I think if you've gotten this far and you have all of the warnings [00:17:51] George: you really made them take their vegetables first, right? Amen. Vegetables and vitamins first. So you can riff on them. [00:18:00] You can take this original concept and riff on it. Can I just maybe up to a thou 3000. Explain to me what are the advantages of using a character that has this recognition [00:18:14] Tara: already? Okay. So the reason why there is copyright and trademark is because it would be so much easier to sell a Alison Wonderland. [00:18:30] Queen of hearts mug. If it looked just like Disney's right, people have already paid money to go to the Disney movie. They've already paid to go to Disney world. Walt Disney has already done the work to make people want to like that. And so it's unfair if you think, oh, I wanna do something with transformers because there's good brand recognition. [00:18:58] The reason why you wanna do it is because there's good brand recognition right now. The reason we now I wanna I'll give you my Madha example. The reason I wanna do a Madris is I can use all the words except for Alice in wonder. So mad Hatter, isn't trademarked tea party. We are all mad here. [00:19:23] All of those things are not trademarked, so I can make a mad Hatter shirt with we're all mad here and I can market it in a way that it will be able to get found by a portion of the population that's interested in the Alice Wonderland story. That's why I wanna make a bad hatch actress, because I know that there are people that already resonate with that character, whether it was the Disney character or whether they read Allison Wonderland in their childhood, or whether they saw Johnny DEP any which way they have a feeling towards that character. [00:20:00] And I can use that to help sell my stuff. [00:20:04] George: Gotcha. So you're shopping for. These characters in part because of this. And I wanna come back to the value that you are essentially borrowing for free. Think about the amount of attention it took to bring that character to millions of people. How much would that have cost for you to do the same? [00:20:24] Now you then, because of that attention, as I understand it, there's recognition. Oh, I see that. I grew up with that. I was read that. And then with recognition, you then can play with the affinity, which by the way, can be positive and negative. There are often villains in here as well, but you then can immediately start on page five instead of page one. [00:20:45] And then it sounds add your flavor of brand message, even advocacy. Does that sound right? [00:20:53] Tara: Yeah. Exactly. So gimme an idea of one of your nonprofits. [00:20:58] George: Oh gosh. We have a lot of animal welfare organizations I'd say interested in preserving and saving and protecting lands. [00:21:07] Tara: Okay. So animal welfare makes me think of the big Wildcat organization when I was in Colorado. [00:21:14] Which makes me think of the cowardly lion and they could use the cowardly lion, the original Frank bomb, cowardly lion, which is in I'm 95. Yeah. It's in the public domain and do something with the cowardly lion that matches their the way their nonprofit is set up and who it's serving animals, right? [00:21:43] Yes. And so if the Wildcat sanctuary already knows their people love big cats, and now they're giving them the cowardly lion with that affinity to not the movie, the book. And that character, but you can still use cowardly lion and all that comes with it. And all the heartstrings that come with it, then all of a sudden you have a target market group. [00:22:10] That's already predisposed to like it and buy it at a higher price because they don't really care. They know the profit's going to. The animal rescue group, they know that this is something that they're gonna love and cherish because it helped their thing, but they also enjoy wearing it. And in wearing it now they're promoting the animal rescue group. [00:22:32] So there's like this amazing circle of wonderfulness. [00:22:37] George: Yeah. I thought you were gonna go with Tigger, but you threw me a curve ball. I maybe have gone with You could ERs and saving Tiggers because he is a character inside of winning the poop. Now [00:22:49] Tara: you there's once you start brains but think about that, you and I went to two totally different things that are both actually big cats that could help an annual animal rescue. [00:23:02] So say you rescue turtles. You wanna find. Maybe I, and don't take, don't quote me on this, but maybe the wind in the willows is in the public domain, the original book, and there's a fun turtle in there. Or those are the kind of things you wanna try to figure out how you can mono, how you can really use their. [00:23:24] Brand recognition to make your customers who are your donors, more willing to buy something and not only buy it because that doesn't help as much. If they're not wearing it and helping spread your message. [00:23:38] George: I wanna pull the thread a bit more because immediately you talk about merchandise. And I imagine if I were to drop you into many sort of after thoughts of we'll call it a Shopify or a Spreadshirt or a very cafe press talking about we put our logo on a shirt, so our. [00:23:55] Audience can go get it. It's an afterthought. It's not the forefront. Can you explain very quickly, like when you look at the opportunity of petsy or putting imagery on a shirt, is there money there? What does that look like in your [00:24:08] Tara: world? Okay. So for a nonprofit, specifically, not in my world, because in my world, I'm an artist now, but for a nonprofit number one, I would suggest they use red bubble. [00:24:21] It is incredibly simple. You do not pay a dime to list any of the products. And as a nonprofit, you make this say, you say, and you don't have the, you don't have anybody on staff with the ability to make what you need. Number one, you can go to creative market right now and they have there's a gal on there that does dark Alice. [00:24:53] There's all kinds like pink, Alice and dark Alice and you can just buy a graphic. That's already ready to drop on a t-shirt for 12 bucks or 20 bucks. So you've bought the right to use that on a t-shirt and then you can put words on the top words on the bottom, wor you know, the name of your charity on the back. [00:25:17] And if your people do not have the ability to do that, you can go to a place like fiber, which is F I V E R r.com. And give them the graphics that you wanna use that you've paid for. Don't rely on them to get the graphics because you want to control the fact that you have purchased commercial rights to use this. [00:25:43] Ask them to make you a t-shirt and they'll make you a t-shirt for 20 bucks. [00:25:50] George: So the, then the creation of it. So how do you set up a shop? What do you point people to set up your shop for red bubble? And you can set up a custom shop with my nonprofit and I get some graphics that just frankly, go beyond here's our logo. [00:26:04] We [00:26:04] Tara: did. Oh, gosh no. You could put your logo graphics on there. You could like that could, and you could even make it cute. Okay. So if I had at least the I, okay. Let's not as cute as the WWF, cuz they have a super cute logo, but say you just have a word logo, right? Yeah. You could take and put a Christmas hat on it for Christmas and then they would have to buy it for Christmas and you could put some Mardi Bo beads hanging on it or put some shamrocks on it. [00:26:38] For I was gonna say the 4th of July, but for St. Patrick's day. And you could do all kinds of things. If you just wanna tart up your logo and then yes, other people in the world could buy it, but primarily you're gonna be driving the people who already like you. To that place so they can buy things. You can buy stickers, you can buy blankets, you can buy. [00:27:03] And all you do is you upload your thing once, and then they put it on all that stuff, if you want. [00:27:09] George: And it's on demand creation and shipping, and it's all handled for you. But I think getting back to our ideation, let me give you another another type of organization, and this is gonna be tough, but you asked for it. [00:27:20] We've got. Cancer related organizations interested in awareness for let's say lung cancer or colorectal cancer. So what types of I see her smile. You can't see, dude. I'll narrate, she's laughing and smiling. She has an idea. All right. What do you well for the call I'm way, ER, than nonprofits, right? [00:27:46] Tara: That's okay. So for the colorectal one, I would go with but why didn't you get your test with somebody's butt and not saying B U T, but B UT, but why did but implying that everything's about a butt, right? Colorectal cancer. It's your butt. I like your job. [00:28:07] That's the kind of thing that you have to get out of your own way and figure out something cute with a marketing hook that is going to to be interesting to people, to buy cards, to buy. [00:28:27] So what, so if you're [00:28:28] George: not, I would've gone wizard of Oz with this one, like a behind the curtain, or like a wizard behind the curtain or a. Maybe a 10 man or something like I have no heart. All right. Like maybe I guess in my mind went there. [00:28:41] Tara: I'm not done with this yet. [00:28:43] George: Oh, hold on. Keep cooking. [00:28:45] Tara: So for the lung cancer I would and you can do this on fiber, or you can ask if anybody's an AR is artistic in your group, get longs and have them painted with. Have them painted with some kind of PA cute pattern. So have some artist make lungs look pretty. And then that's going to be something that people already sorry about the rustling. [00:29:18] People already want to support this, but if there's a beautiful set of lungs and you can put that on something on a card, on a whatever. So if you aren't looking for products, I guess I'm just stuck in the products right now. What were you looking to use public domain stuff. So I can give you better examples [00:29:42] George: then. [00:29:42] Yeah. Moving out of the product land. I would say it's the process I'm imagining is shopping through a, Winnie the poo in all the characters, and then saying what type of graphics could we use in our website, art blog posts, social media, mini campaigns that might be around fundraisers and that type of use where it's just it's the ability to have an immediate, as I mentioned before, a combination of recognition and. [00:30:10] Then telling a nuance of your story, [00:30:16] Tara: I would still buy the cause. You're when you're buying the P bear thing from creative market. You're buying the set. So the entire set of the P air images. So you've got, say you were to do that and we'll let's talk about the Colorectal one, because if I'm going in, I'm going to the hardest one you have Tigar and I'm so happy that my, my friend P got his colorectal screen. [00:30:56] He's bouncing on his tail, right? Yep. so this is something, [00:31:01] George: no, you're right. You can take these characters and have a dialogue. And what does it mean? That happens. It's just it is so much it IBUs it with so much more nuance. Doesn't it? Because then you're not thinking. So colorectal cancer for Mego. [00:31:16] Tara: I go directly to the gal who was on the today show whose husband died. Jay died. Super cute lady. Can't remember her name right the second. And so there's a lot of bad associations, sad associations to that. And there's not this This feeling of hope that if you help donate to my cause we can. [00:31:47] Do so many more things than just mourn people. We can help with research. So maybe you have, what's the one that's always the owl, is the smart one. And so the owl says did you know that your donation helps us research cures and things to help with colorectal cancer? Like now you're saying, oh, it's not just this horrifying thing that everybody's gonna die from. It's that you, as an organization. Present a way for people to be hopeful and to want to donate because, and to want to share socially. Yeah. Do you wanna share a picture of a colon? I have seen a picture of a colon and they are not attractive. [00:32:42] Do you wanna share a picture of a colon or do you wanna share a picture of tiger jumping up and down? With a funny context to it, but here's the game that I'm seeing. You're bringing in characters that have a normal relationship, and then you're adding dialogue. It's a caption contest in some respects of saying, what would this dialogue look like if it were about our cause? [00:33:03] George: All right, I'm gonna throw you another one, unless there's another point here. No, I like. Okay. The news literacy project, and then generally anybody dealing with misinformation online. And so this particular organization works with educators and journalists to give students the skills they need to discern fact from fiction and know what to trust. [00:33:23] Tara: Oh my goodness. I would totally use. Was oh, we just watched this. Oh, you can't use it. I can give you a great example. Can't uses. So you charming was the villain and guy was the villain in in frozen. You could do this on social media. You could absolutely do this without getting in trouble. Yeah. [00:33:55] Prince [00:33:56] George: times. So just yeah. Who like a quiz who was the villain in social media da, everybody knows fake news sometimes or however you put it, that things aren't always what they seem at first glance. Yeah. And so you're talking about the fact that don't forget when you're reading the news things. [00:34:21] Tara: Aren't always what at first glance ever news or Scrooge is in the is in the public domain, that Scrooge store. That's why you have, that's why you have SCR and you have all those movies that are made of it, but you could put something about You can't use Scrooge duck, but you can use Scrooge and you could put something about the fact that Scrooge goes bankrupt. [00:34:52] Loses all his money. and then underneath you could say something like not true. He donated it all to a, to worthy causes after tiny Tim taught him the right way to do it. Make sure to fact check. Yeah, [00:35:07] George: I. All right here. I'm gonna play one into you. See how you would go with the queen of hearts is public domain. [00:35:14] Yeah. And notoriously pretty terrible leader. Did you have the little cards as like defenders or like at least the soldiers, right? No. You could have she has queen of heart soldiers. Yeah. Two soldiers, the queen of hearts talking to each other, being like, I'm not sure red. Paint's so great for flowers, but I'm not gonna look it up. [00:35:35] So painting the roses red, like all of that sort of iconography and you're like check the, so this could be part of an ongoing joke series. Could even be a, could even be a shirt. go, I'll go back to your product. But no, but it could all [00:35:48] Tara: of that's and I just set up a I've had an Etsy shop, but I just, the reason why I suggest red bubble. [00:35:54] Is because it is the easiest thing in 20 years, I have ever done online the way they've made the website and the ease of adding. It just has to be a big enough picture, which is why I suggested a fiber person, cuz they're gonna be able to there's terms like it has to be 4,500 pixels by 5,005. [00:36:17] And nonprofit people are like LA. I can't hear that. but any kind of graphic artist can do that in a heartbeat. That's just not a hard thing. And so if they have an idea that they wanna implement, they could implement it with somebody on five or very easily. Gotcha. All right, [00:36:37] George: you ready for another one? [00:36:38] Sure. Let's keep going. All right. This is one move for hunger, but also hunger organizations in general, food banks, collecting food and in general for move for hunger, they're a national nonprofit, and they have a sustainable way to reduce food waste. Mainly when people move, instead of throwing it away, they have moving companies that have been part of their network that get food that last mile to donated to local food banks. [00:37:01] So anything in the food bank, food insecure. Space. Okay. What [00:37:07] Tara: would you play there? So I go to the mad Hatter's tea party where they're eating right. Right after this, they called the moving company and they came and, or they called moved for hunger and no food. No teacakes were, was. And that's all imagery you ha can go grab and that's all imagery. It's just there. And people already know it. And they know about the, I if I was doing move for hunger, I would do a whole series of it with like cupcakes, like a really cute cupcake. Maybe even not a Alice Wonderland cupcake, but you can use, drink me. [00:37:49] You can U I. Always check. You can use drink meat. You can use eat me and then say [00:37:57] George: no, those little tags that are like so iconic to [00:37:59] Tara: it. Yeah. So eat me on a little cupcake. Cause you can buy those kind images already made. And once you have your little cupcake, then you can say not a Chrome went to waste. [00:38:13] Because the food bank showed up or the Mo food movers or move for hunger showed up. And so you're go, like the big part of whatever you're doing is gonna be the cupcake and the eat me. And then especially on social media, then the underneath of it is the message with a link to your donate page or a link to your about page so people can understand what your thing is. [00:38:39] People want to know how to help, but you have to attract their attention before they know that you're there. I adopted three kids from foster care and so food, poverty is super important to me because my kids came from that situation. But there's no way for me to know. And I work with realtors all the time, cuz of that little two year thing in real estate, I would think that you could contact realtors and have them give everybody who's moving a flyer to put in the homes of the people who are moving. [00:39:16] And you're literally touching so many more people who are moving, but you have to attract that realtor first. [00:39:24] George: Yeah. I had the thought of Winnie the POH and honey, I'm done. I'm all in poo, but Winnie the POH and honey, like he's always looking for honey, always hungry and nothing is Sader than a sad poo and an empty honey. [00:39:35] Tara: Exactly. That's wonderful. I love imagine, right? That is wonderful. There's a whole bunch in SCR. So you, so then at Christmas time, yeah, you do Scrooge and tiny Tim never had enough to eat. This is the. If tiny Tim had been alive now move for hunger. Would've been able to help. So your image is something endearing and heartfelt and that, and then your message is that this is an actual thing that helps people. [00:40:12] And what you, oh, here's another thing. Oh, this is a big one. Let's talk about demographics, right? Who has the most disposable income right now? And I see a lot of people tr okay let's start. Coherently cuz I just got really excited. So people with money are I'm 56, so I have money and people older than me. [00:40:39] So let's say 50 and older have money, disposable income to donate. So you want most of your Donations your hardcore, Hey send like I, I support best friends, which is a dog rescue. It's a giant rescue place, but they had a dog town, TV show and stuff like that. So I donate to them and they send me emails with pictures of dogs and dog stories and sometimes dog t-shirts and things like that. [00:41:11] And I have the disposable income to do it. I also donate to Kiva and which is for entrepreneurs overseas, their micro loads. So you want to take. And figure out what kind of images are going to appeal to people who are older. If you're looking for donations, not to say, to ignore younger people but that's a better target market to to. [00:41:43] To get money, easy money, recurring revenue, whatever you wanna call it, because the disposable income is there. If you are trying to get volunteers, I don't volunteer very often. I'm old and grumpy, and I don't really like to leave the house and. So you are gonna get a lot more volunteers from the younger people. [00:42:08] So you would direct if this is what your what the data from your past marketing campaigns has shown in your nonprofit. If it doesn't show that, then don't do this, but think about it. And if you can get volunteers from younger people, then figure out how you can use those kind of things, more hip and ed. [00:42:33] And mine can go back to tradition and sentimental and things like that. So those are all also things you wanna put in the mix, not just what is the character you're using, cuz you could use Tigger the same way. You said to you, I said, oh, I said to use. No. You said to use 'em for the wild cats, but you could also use him to say, Hey, hop on over and help us with the the drive to end colorectal cancer. [00:43:07] George: Yep. Fairly it's really usable. And I wanna put a finer point on what you're saying with regard to generational targeting because the characters. Are coming into public domain are 70 to a hundred years old. They are perhaps more recognizable, they're recognizable and broad, but specifically higher affinity, higher recognition for let's just be honest, a generation over 45. [00:43:30] Tara: Absolutely. I agree with that a hundred percent now I would say that my daughter, who is 17 recognized the mad hat. Because my artwork is a little cartoony but if you, yeah, your style. Yeah. Yeah. My style is a little bit more cartoony, but if you were to just put and she recognizes old poo, so then you would have to go to the really big ones. [00:43:56] You couldn't go to like owl from poo. You would have to go to poo bear, Tigger, EOR. Piglet and then you want yeah. Piglet, but then you want to to find out like how people are using those characters in common vernacular in the zeitgeist, because are you a Tigger or are you an E or is an actual thing? [00:44:29] I'm an ER, meaning that I tend to be a little. I just had this conversation with one of my friends today that I'm a little bit more grumpy and a little bit more doubting and she's a ticker, she's all everything's great. And everything's fine. And da. And so that's already in the Zeit case. [00:44:50] So you could do a fun quiz on, on your social media and say, are you a ticker or are you a E or. We're gonna have a drawing for a free entry to the, whatever you have coming up for one person from whichever team wins. Yeah, I just throwing other just looking through fictional characters, there's so much more than I realized Robinhood, Sherlock Holmes, Frankenstein's monster is a, we've only just scratched the surface of kind of what's possible. [00:45:26] George: I wonder I've been playing around with Dolly two and image creation from AI, and I realized that you can actually take one of these originals and do riffs. I think you'll get more random than you would an artist, but the ability to do variations, even on, on some of these imagery, once you have, as you acknowledge like that style of the original thing that people may recognize, you could actually move those characters around more easily than ever before. [00:45:51] I think especially for a nonprofit on social media, if you're doing no commercial sales and you're just posting on social media. Yeah. And you wanted to take, say the drippy clock from Dolly. And put it on the front of your building and say, Hey, it's time to, it's time to donate times times running out to donate for the September big cat whatever for that. [00:46:24] Tara: There's a general feeling that as long as you have changed, as long as more than 40%. Change, so there's a, I'm really big on the bad things that happened. So do you remember that Obama poster that was really graphic stark graphic? That was, are you saying the Shepherd's ferry one? [00:46:51] I believe so. Yeah. Yeah. He copied that from a picture that he didn't have the commercial rights to use oh, that's. Okay. So he is in trouble for that. He's getting sued by the photographer, or he's been sued by the photographer for that because he didn't change it at all. Short of poster, short of what anybody could have done in illustrator. [00:47:16] He made it exactly. [00:47:18] George: He just dropped it down the middle and changed one shade, changed the other shade, hit it with an outline and he is And bam you're done well, the original photographer could prove it was his. So the thought is that as long as you change about 40%, but there's lots of really recognizable. [00:47:35] Tara: I don't know if CLE. K L I M P T. He made all that gold arch where there's two people on you. Yeah. And there's gold. All of that is in the public domain. His stuff [00:47:48] George: is his is the kiss, right? That's the [00:47:50] Tara: symbolic one. He did the. Yeah. So there's tons of stuff. If you start to, to take a look and then, so you can go to, you can do a search for creative commons which is an actual place. [00:48:08] Creative commons. Yeah. Yeah, of course. And use lots of things there because there are a lot of contemporary artists. There are a lot. Just people who love to make art or who love to take pictures who are willing to have people use their artwork with a commercial license. Cause you still have to have a commercial license. [00:48:30] You are a commercial entity, even as a nonprofit yeah. So you're not using it for personal. [00:48:39] George: Yeah, you have to, especially I think the bright line here I'm taking away as we wrap up is for general social media and your website use there's clearly ways you can use it, but you definitely have to double check, triple check and even consider paying for some access to it. [00:48:54] When the commercial rights of like, all right, I'm putting it on an item to be sold and revenue will be generated albeit even for a non-profit [00:49:02] Tara: a hundred percent. But I also think that there's ways to. Collection like to pay for a commercial license of a large collection for a low amount of money that you then know unilaterally, you have purchased the commercial right to use, right? [00:49:19] So if you have all the poos and you have all the Allison wonderlands and you have a creative intern and you say let's all help you brainstorm things to do. They could be posting on social media or your website for the next year. With all different kinds of fun things. Yeah. [00:49:38] George: All right. Normally I end with rapid fire questions, but I will trim it down a little bit, maybe for you and some final wrap up questions, unless there's any other finer points you wanna put on this overall conversation? [00:49:51] Tara: No, I think this was fun. It was interesting. [00:49:54] George: Little bit different. Alright, so what is one tech challenge you're currently facing right now? [00:50:01] Tara: I just wrote in my newsletter about this, that my first reaction to anything is I can't do that. I'm an EOR, so I think, oh, I can't do that. I don't know how to do that. And one of my friends today, her coach told her she had to do TikTok and she said I don't, she was freaked out, just freaked out. [00:50:27] And she said, I don't know how to do this. And so I talked to her for a little while and at the end of it, she's oh, I absolutely can do this. So I think when my first reaction is I can't do this, number one, I'll phone, a friend. And then number two, I will look on YouTube because everything you need to know about how to do anything is on. [00:50:49] George: All right. What new website or tool have you started using in the past year? That's been a game changer for you, red bubble. [00:50:57] Tara: Red bottles. So fun. Love it. And I have no affiliation. [00:51:01] George: Yeah, no this ad brought to you by red bull com find your new [00:51:07] Tara: hobby. Exactly well, but I think it's because I've used Etsy for so long and I've worked with so many entrepreneurs and it is hard. [00:51:16] Like it's just it's hard to use. It's hard to do things and. So it's distressing to give that as a person who suggests ways to make money or to do marketing or to do things like that. It's distressing to me to recommend something that I know that they're probably gonna spend a lot of time at and may not succeed. [00:51:40] Yeah. Where I was like whoa. All my little people will be able to cause my, my readership for marketing artfully is women who tend to be older, who may not be as technically inclined. And so to have something to recommend them. I'll give you another one though. canva.com. Oh, [00:52:01] George: we're friends of Canada. [00:52:02] Yeah. Okay. [00:52:04] Tara: All right. If you're doing any kind of graphics. They like, so you could totally pull your logo into Canva and they have all kinds of elements in there. And when I said put like a little Santa Claus hat on it, they would have a Santa Claus hat. You could stick onto your to your thing, even for the top of your new, how fun would that be? [00:52:29] The top, the header of your newsletter every month. You stick something on it and then seasonal [00:52:35] George: iconography. [00:52:36] Tara: Yeah. Yeah. And then people get used to looking for that, and that's a way to get them to read your newsletter, which is the point. [00:52:45] George: All righty. What is one piece of advice your parents gave you that you either followed or did not [00:52:50] Tara: follow. [00:52:54] Don't open things with your teeth. I paid a lot for them and I opened things with my teeth all the time. [00:53:04] George: That might be the best answer to that question we've ever had. And we've had many years of this that's I'm not gonna pull all the thread there. I think that was perfect. Final hardball question here. [00:53:13] How do people find you? How do people help you? [00:53:17] Tara: So I I have a, I marketing art fleet is helpful to marketing things. I have another website called artsy Fary life.com and I have a lot of stuff on there. That's artsy Fary art, artistic stuff, and then also a bunch for Alzheimer's. Cause my mother-in-law has Alzheimer's so caregiving for Alzheimer's. [00:53:45] So if anybody has that, then there's a lot of good information. [00:53:49] George: And what might somebody reach out to you personally, to do, to work [00:53:54] Tara: on? I don't work for people anymore. don't [00:53:58] George: I did that. I'm outta the client games. All right. It's lucky, [00:54:01] Tara: but you know what, but you know what? I have an open offer to anybody to email me questions and I get lots of questions. [00:54:10] It's Tara at marketing artfully. And so while I won't do it for you, a lot of times I have either a recommendation. Or I can answer a question really quick, quickly for you. That would maybe be something that would take you a long time to figure out. And I have people email you know how some people don't mind getting texts and a text will Fritz out my day. [00:54:34] I get emails all day long from people, and I've done that for years. For 20 years. My email has been out on the internet and it's in lots of my blog posts that say, feel free to email me if you have any questions. And then if you're more artsy, I have a really cool newsletter on artsy Fary and if you're more marketing, I have a really cool newsletter on marketing artfully. [00:54:56] George: I appreciate you answering my random cold email to you, and it all makes sense. Now. I appreciate you giving generously of your time and thank you. [00:55:05] Tara: It was nice talking to you today.     Podcast picture credit: OpenAI DALLE2 edit of A. A. Milne Winnie the Pooh on a log being interviewed