Podcast appearances and mentions of mary oh

What can you do to keep your voice in tip-top shape? As podcasters, we use our voices a lot. Chances are, that essential instrument of yours has temporarily abandoned you in the past. Whether the symptom stems from getting sick or from overuse, waking up to croaks, rasps, or silence is an awful feeling, especially if deadlines or interviews are looming. In this timely episode, Mary returns to the mic on the heels of her own voice loss to talk swollen vocal folds and slug tongue with Nic Redman, a vocal coach and voiceover artist who has spent almost 20 years helping professional speakers hone their voices. Nic is a font of healthy voice inspiration, sharing everything from the importance of hydration (and the truth about which beverages count) to warmups that will get your tongue trilling, your lips flapping, and your vocal cords folding. Come to terms with what you can and can't control about your listener's reaction to your unique voice and be reminded about what a privilege it is, literally and figuratively, to have a voice. This episode is packed with light science and exaggerated facial expressions you can practically see, all in the interest of keeping you talking for years to come. Join Nic and Mary for interactive vocal warmups and other voice health tips: Silly faces and weird noises that can help your voice even when you're sick Why you need to get out of your own head and stop self-editing your voice How to sound just as energized at the top of your episode as you do at the end The benefit of vocal warmups beyond just keeping your voice healthy Links worth mentioning from the episode: Podcasting For Business Conference - https://pfbcon.com/ Enter to win a ticket to the conference by sending your voice note - http://www.VisibleVoicePodcast.com/ Listen to Episode 70, How to Use Research and Reports to Guide Your Podcast with Megan Dougherty - https://www.organizedsound.ca/how-to-use-research-and-reports-to-guide-your-podcast-with-megan-dougherty-episode-70/ Engage with Nic: Learn more about Nic's work on her website - https://nicolaredman.com/ Listen to the Voice Coach podcast - https://nicolaredman.com/voice-coach-podcast/ Get your copy of Nic's book at www.onthemicbook.com Connect with her on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nicredvoice/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voicemail with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Transcript with Audio Description: for this particular consultation. MARY: Yes. Thank you. NIC: The first thing is definitely hydration. That's easy, right? Just drink loads. Loads, and loads, and loads of extra fluids. People get a bit hung up on what you can and can't drink. The truth about hydration is it's very, very simple. All fluids count except alcohol. I'm really sorry if that's your tipple. Just chase that whiskey with water. > You can drink tea. It will still help you hydrate systemically within the body, which will hopefully, at some point, help the vocal folds and the mucus and the vocal folds. Even coffee, shock, horror, it's still fluid, it still counts as systemic hydration in the body. There are some elements of diuretic, i.e. it makes you go to the toilet a little bit more. But the actual more recent research about coffee is that you would have to drink an absolute tonne of it for it to actually have any effect on your voice.  So people can relax about coffee, espresso, martinis, whatever you need before you hit record, it's fine. I mean, of course, the caffeine might exacerbate reflux or the dairy might have an impact on the thickness in your mouth, but you can still just have your coffee for hydration. So, look, just hydrate loads. Because if you're coughing or if you're ill and creating more mucus that's thick, you will need the extra fluids to help counterbalance that. The first thing is hydration.  Two easy things, hydrate and rest. But we all know that rest is not easy. Sometimes it's a privilege to say that rest is easy…  MARY: Mhmm.  NIC: …shout out to anybody with a job or caregiving responsibilities or small people in their lives…  MARY: Yes.  NIC: …but if you can rest, that can really help because your body needs time to process the illness. And the more you can rest, the quicker you'll get over it. If you have to, like, record straight away, like, there's no getting over it. There are some rehab exercises you can do, but I say this with caution because obviously, if you have no voice, sometimes there's nothing to do but rest. As in rest your voice as well. I always say to people, manage the expectations of the person who's expecting you to record.  So if you can at any, any possibility delay it, push it back, you know, give yourself an extra day, because you do want to be on point. And it's better waiting a day and be slightly after deadline and sounding great than, you know, showing up half-cocked, as it were.  So that aside, if you do need to record, there's a group of exercises called, um, well, shorthand. We call them SOVT or Semi Occluded Vocal Tract Exercises. And they're designed to help release tension in the body, in the vocal tracts, regulate the breath flow, the airflow, so that the vocal folds vibrate nice and easily. And when they're swollen a little bit, if you're ill, or covered in extra thick mucus, these exercises are really good at just waking them up, encouraging them to close in a more consistent and easy way, which makes speaking better. So those exercises, although they have a big fancy name, are very simple. It's just gliding up and down your range with a partially occluded mouth space. For example… MARY: Yeah, I need an example. NIC: …Yeah. Oh, it's fine. I've got loads. Uh, this one > gentle lip trill is a nice one. MARY: Oh, I love those. Yes. NIC: Those do elude some people, though, so please don't worry, they're not for everybody. And a couple of nice other examples are big puffy TH sounds. So if you stick your tongue out and let your cheeks get nice and puffy like a hamster or a chipmunk and just go as if you're. > You've got your tongue right, like you're doing a TH sound, you know, like this. > So imagine you're just saying this, but you never get past the TH. > MARY: That's a good one. NIC: Okay. These. > That creates exactly the same environment as the lip chill does in your sort of throat area. And then the other ones you can do are any puffy fricatives, really. So these sounds like a puffy V. > You want to be aiming for a lovely feeling. Like the sound is all vibrating at the front of the mouth, rather than stuck at the back. So you don't want, like, >...  MARY: Yeah, that would hurt. NIC: ...you just want to. > Or a Z > or because different accents and different languages have different sound inventories, a puffy worse sound, like you're, you know, you're doing a trumpet with your mouth. > MARY: I can totally picture you doing that. That's awesome. NIC: What a great job I have. I'm glad there's no video. > I've got my face on the Internet doing this far too much. So it's a real free treat to not have my face in. So those exercises, I won't go into the science of it, but basically they put your larynx in a really happy, easy, free place, and they make it really easy for the vocal folds to close.  So if you're ill, what you might find when you glide up and down. And you could try this if you want you might find a few gaps in that glide. So you might end up with something that sounds like M. > Right? Which is because there's swelling because you've been coughing a lot or there's a lot of mucus and mucus in the way. But the thing to do is just keep gently gliding and keep gently gliding because what you'll find is your body, your incredible brain and body go, oh, that's weird. We usually make a sign there what's going on, you know, and I mean, this is not obviously the science, like the, there's real proper neuron stuff happening here. But this is how my brain processes it. It like sends everybody to work fixing basically inside.  So if I'm used to going, > and my body goes, > then my brain's going to go, whoa, we need to fix that. There's something wrong. And it starts helping you. And basically it encourages the vocal folds to close nicely and that will help you sound a little bit more healthy, vocally healthy, and get the mucus moving as well. MARY: Oh, I like that because yeah, so I lost the voice on Sunday, didn't do anything without it. Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, got a little bit of it back. And I was doing some of this stuff yesterday because I thought, oh, like, what's taking it so long?  So I like your idea of like, the brain needs to make this happen. And so I think that's why I was like, ooh, today, yay. I have this interview. My voice is actually working for once all week. So this is nice. NIC: Oh, that's good. The other things I would add to complement the sort of comfort whenever you're getting through this is, people often love steaming. So taking a, well I have this peculiar looking sort of ceramic inhaler with a tube that looks a little bit dodgy to be honest, but you fill it with hot water and you suck on it gently and it's a really nice soothing in the vocal tract.  And then the other thing you can do as well is the sort of. The newest modern day version of steaming is using a nebulizer, like a personal nebulizer. So a little handheld device. There's one internationally you can get that's called VocalMist. They use a 0.9% saline solution and you use that for 10 minutes. And what it does is it helps the mucus on the vocal folds and it reduces, here comes the science, it reduces phonation threshold pressure for up to one hour, i.e. and makes your vocal folds vibrate more easily for a period of time. So they're really good for supporting your health, your vocal wellness, if you're under the weather. MARY: Wait, how does a nebulizer work? When you were describing it, I was thinking of those neti pots for your nasal sinuses. But is that similar? NIC: Yeah. So it's like an electrical device. If you Google, like, handheld, handheld nebulizer, you'll see it's like a little white sort of rectangular cube, like box, > I suppose, with a little spout on it. And you screw off the top, and you put a little vial of saline, note 0.9%. Very important. That's the same makeup as the saline in your body, as your mucus and stuff. And then you turn it on, and it mists, turns it into a mist.  MARY: Oh. NIC: And the mist actually reaches your vocal folds, which, with steaming, they're not sure. The droplets of steam actually hit the vocal folds. These days, the droplets of steam are bigger than the drops of mist, so it soothes your throat when you steam, and it helps thin out the mucus in your mouth. It feels nice. It's like an internal hug. But they're not actually sure if it gets to the vocal folds anymore. Whereas the nebulizer, the science and the research today, it currently shows that the mist does reach your vocal folds and hydrates them from the outside in. So the mist is absorbed at a cellular level because it matches the chemical makeup of the mucus in there, and therefore it creates a friendlier environment for the vocal folds.  So they're really good if you can get your hands on one. In the interest of disclosure, if I've been out to a party and had a few too many whiskeys, sometimes the next morning, a little hit on the nebulizer really helps bring my voice back to life. > I've been on the karaoke, doing a bit of a Bon Jovi. MARY: Yeah, those are the hacks that most people are, like, looking for. What's the hack? NIC: But, like, not pretend. We're all perfect. I have an episode of my podcast, actually, called how to keep your voice healthy during a festive party season. Nice. Because that's when I lost my voice, was when I went to, so I used to do a podcast called the Voiceover Social Podcast. And we have meetups, and I went to the Christmas do. I was already a bit under the weather because I host that party. It was like chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, like a wedding. And then my husband to stand up, and he was doing a gig in the evening, and me and a load of the people from that went to the standup gig. And were chat, chat, chat, laugh, laugh, laugh, chat, chat, chat. And I woke up the next day and I had no voice. I had no voice for 10 days and I lost almost a five figure amount of money in that week anyway. > So that's why I have that podcast episode and that's why I have all the hacks. MARY: Yes. Things we learn from our mistakes. NIC: Exactly. Win, learn, never lose.  MARY: Yep. Okay, so let's get out of the sickness mindset, but into the, when we're just doing our regular thing. We're going to be recording a podcast episode. Vocal warmups,  NIC: my favourite.  MARY: Okay. Honesty on my end. Now, even as a professional myself, you know, I do voiceover stuff too. I worked in radio, I know all the things. But there are many days that I don't even do proper warmups and I feel like it has to do more with the podcasting side. Like if I do the voiceover work, I'm doing the warmups. But when it comes to podcasting, it's more slack, I think today we're, we're trying to record so many different things for our show that we're like, we're going to do one task and the next task and the next task and we don't do the warmups.  So not necessarily looking for that hack or shortcut, but what can we be doing to quickly warm up before we go and set up our microphone for our recordings? NIC: Yes, I'm a big fan of, I suppose what, you know, they would call it the personal training world, compound exercises. So, you know, doing things that, that work multiple areas or doing a couple of things at once. So the very least I do, and I'm, I'm with you, Mary, because sometimes I drop the ball, or sometimes as a voiceover, something comes in and they need it back now, you know, and you have to jump in the booth. There's always time. There's always time to do something if I'm really honest with myself. But sometimes I take it for granted.  So what I love is, for example, a really, really simple one is some nice big, gentle kind of luxurious shoulder rolls and what I call a chewy hum. So you get a hum on the go that gets your lips nice and buzzy, but then you chew your lips roaring like you're eating something. So, again this is audio related, so I'll describe it as much as I can, but big shoulder rolls and then >. MARY: Like you're. NIC: And again with the hum, you're aiming to feel a really nice buzz at the front of the face, not > at the back, it really helps to kind of close your eyes and imagine you're eating something dead yummy. > I find if we're going to put an intention behind this, so you're. And then you can glide up and down your range. > It's a really good one. Oh, that felt really nice, actually. MARY: Yeah, that was great. NIC: So what you're getting there is you're releasing the shoulders, which is great for nervous tension, great for when you're on a microphone, because we often. The shoulders do a lot of our communicative talking for us as well. They're up, they're down, you know, so given the shoulders, release is really nice for the voice. The humming gets the lips released. It also encourages the voice forward a little bit, if we're thinking a bit like, sort of image based with resonance. And it also gets the airflow regulated. And, um, it gets the vocal folds vibrating and woken up as well.  And then, of course, when you glide light up and down, you're increasing the variety. You're showing your voice the high notes and the low notes that it can reach. Because a lot of the time with podcasting things, sometimes people feel they don't sound as vocally varied as they thought they did when they listen back. So, they listen back and they go, oh god, I sound really monotone or dull or. I thought I sounded more excited about that or something. So a very easy glide like that just shows your body the range that it's capable of, so it gives you more options. So that's one really good exercise.  And then I'm also a big fan of exercises that help you go straight into either, you know, practising your intro or practising a few questions. So there's an exercise again, grateful there's no video right now. But if you stick your tongue out on your lower lip like this was called, slug tongue. That's what it was called when it was taught to me, as in my book. I think if you want a picture, stick your tongue out on your lower lip and you're letting your mouth kind of relax down. If you imagine your best sort of Macaulay Culkin shocked face. MARY: Ah, yes. NIC: And that your tongue out and then you're going to speak through days of the week. Well, the first thing you can do is speak days of the week, months of the year and count one to ten with your tongue out like this. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, like that. But what you can do with that one is take the intro of your podcast and say it with that slug tongue hanging out. So you're like, hi, thank you so much for joining me, welcome to the Voice Coach Podcast. My name's Nic Redman and today we're going to be talking about warm ups. Then you can take your tongue in and go, Hi, thank you so much for joining me today. Welcome to the Voice Coach Podcast. My name is Nic Redman and today we're going to be talking about warm ups.  So you're taught you're sort of practicing your intro to get your vocal energy going. You're sticking your tongue out, which sort of makes it harder. So that kind of wakes up the energy of the voice a little bit. You know, it wakes up those other articulators because when you put your tongue back in and you speak, it's like, oh, my god, this is so easy now. So that's a really good one for practicing with your intro or your questions. And, this is the final one. I mean, you'll have to just stop me at some point, Mary, because I could go on forever. > Like, I literally wrote the book on this. MARY: Yes. NIC: If you put your finger, pointy finger, horizontally across your lips, as if you were doing a moustache mime, you know, in a sketch show,... MARY: Yes NIC: …but down, lower, in front, like between your lips, and then you're gonna go. > And then you're going to glide up and down your range. >  MARY: Yes. NIC: Really nice for loosening the lips, getting the breath going, getting the vocal folds and the range going. But you can also do that one with your intro. So. > Hi, thanks for joining me today, my name is Nic Redman and this is the Voice Coach Podcast >  And then you can go straight into it with a really big vocal energy. Because some of my podcast clients say by the end of it, I'm really warmed up, but the start always feels a bit low energy and I always end up going back to re-record my intro because I feel like it doesn't match. Do you know how relaxed I was at the end? So this is a really good one because the last thing you want to be doing as a podcast is having to re-record and edit stuff. I mean, who can be bothered? > So doing this, > oh thank you so much, > gets the energy going so you can go in with a bang. MARY: I love this. And also because when, when I do this work too, with people that they're, like, really stuck on this, I need to sound professional thing. And I'm like, warm ups is not about professional, it's about being fun. It is about going outside of your comfort zone. And so we need to act silly. This is a silly thing… NIC: Yeah.  MARY: …And I feel like a lot of podcasters don't realize that even when they are behind the mic, they don't have to put on that professional hat. You know, this isn't a broadcast radio, BBC, NPR, CBC-type show. This is something that is about you and your message and your voice.  And so when we connected over Instagram earlier this year, it was really about how as speakers, we're not able to control how someone reacts to our voice. So there's two parts of this, right? It's the, listeners has their own work to do to figure out what's bothering them, but also, you yourself as the speaker, you've got some work to do too. So, tell me more about this. Expand on it. NIC: Yeah. So one of the things that I come across most with podcast host clients who come to me for help, both independent and in corporate space, is this idea that they're constantly focused on how they sound.  MARY: Mhm.  NIC: You know, podcasting comes through the filter of the edit, the production, the sound effects, the intro, how it looks, how I'm presenting it, what is my logo, what is my image, what is my tile for, like for Spotify and everything. And the same happens with the voice. And people are like, how should I sound? What do I sound like? I need to sound professional, I need to sound engaging. And they come to me and they go, I think I sound to X or I don't think I sound Y enough. And that's the problem for me is this self monitoring and editing of the voice when you're using it, rather than focusing on that connection with the listener and going, doesn't matter how I sound, it matters how they feel. And it's about sort of changing that focus, you know, so we did connect about that whole, I cannot control how someone hears my voice.  Your audience may or may not be aware of the intricacies of Irish politics, right? But I'm a Northern Irish person of a particular religion, right? Technically, people may hear my voice and get really angry because I sound how I sound. Right? If they're from a particular part of Northern Ireland, for example. Now, I cannot do anything about that, in the same way that you might have a listener who has a teacher that they didn't like that sounded like you once. So in their head they carry this vocal baggage with them, this auditory baggage that they kind of listen through a lens with.  So I always say to people, listen, who cares? Because you literally have no idea who's listening to you and you cannot do anything about it. All you can do is be as yourself on the microphone as possible. Or as whoever you need to be on the microphone as possible. And your listeners will find you. And the ones who you annoy will not stick around. And they're not your people anyway. MARY: Yes, Exactly. NIC: Because when we're worrying too much about how we sign, we forget about what we're saying. And that's the point. And funny enough, this links to warm ups. Mary. Because the reason I think warm ups are important is, yes, it's about saving time in the edit and in the record. So, A, you save money, B, you save sanity and your relationship with your editor. > But also, if you warm up, then your voice is ready and you don't have to think about it. And you could focus more on the words. You can focus more on the impact that you're having and the connection you're trying to make with the listener.  So warming up is incredibly generous for your listener and also really good for your voice. Because you are saying, this is important to me. It's not about being professional. It's about caring about what you do and caring that the information that you're going to say is getting to the people in the way that it needs to, to make them feel in the way that you want them to. MARY: I love that tie back into the vocal warmups because that was one of my thoughts. And I'm sure, like, a lot of people too, is like, when you said, who cares? Because I say that too. I'm like, who cares what other people think? It's about how you want and want to feel in this moment. But them who cares? Is easier said than done. So tying it back into that vocal warmup piece is so key. So thank you so much for making that connection and for sharing that. NIC: Yeah. Because it's, warm ups help you get to know your voice and enjoy it. And you said fun. You said warm ups are about having fun. And I completely agree with that. And you know, if you've got a guest, do them with the guest, because you're darn right that guest is going to be nervous or excited. Like, do a few with them. Break the ice, record it, don't record it, doesn't matter. Sure, it's all content, let's be honest. But, like, it's really, really generous, important to do your warm up.  And I have to say, you're right, loving your voice and appreciating how you sound and not caring how other people think you sound is a big piece. And I don't say that lightly because I have done a lot of work with people on that. But remember that if you're. If you're making the step to do a podcast and put your voice out there, you clearly believe you have something to say that is bigger than your ego around your voice. MARY: Actually, this new client of mine said the exact same thing where she's like, this is the biggest fear I have is sharing my voice. Because she used to be a journalist, it was more about writing, and she, now that she's got her podcast out there, she's just like, oh, oh, I'm so embarrassed with my voice. So, what would you say to someone like that who's still embarrassed about their voice? NIC: I would say to them, remember what a privilege it is to have a voice, both literally and figuratively. I have worked with many people who have a big voice baggage for very legitimate reasons. You know, whether it's bosses, or family members, or social circles who have told them their voice is not valid or that they are not worthy of being heard. But we have to take responsibility for the fact that we have a voice in the first place.  So we have to step up to that fear and go, it's incredible that I have a platform, and it's incredible and a privilege that I have a voice to start with. So you just have to kind of give yourself a shake, do the silly warm ups, listen to yourself over, and over, and over again. And the more you listen, the more you'll get used to yourself and your sound and the more you'll hear the beauty in it.  And just remember how amazing is it the only thing we have in podcasting that is unique. The only thing. I'm sorry if you think your idea for podcasts is the most unique thing in the world… MARY: No. NIC: …It is not. It will have been done before. The only unique USP you have in podcasting is your voice. And that's the truth. MARY: Yeah, that's right. I say that a lot because your voice is like a thumbprint. Everyone's is unique. Like, I sound similar to my older sister, sure, but it is still me. The way I say something, the tone, the words I use, it is still you. And I love that you bring that to the table as well.  So you've been working in the podcasting space. You have your own show too. What have you seen that's changed or shifted at all in regards to voice in the podcasting scene? NIC: Thankfully, we're seeing a lot more diversity than we were.  MARY: Yeah. NIC: There's still a lot of work to be done with giving the underrepresented shows more space and more possibility to grow, I think. But there's definitely more diversity out there, which is really exciting. And luckily, a lot more women… MARY: Mhmm. NIC: …which is exciting. As someone who identifies very much as female, this is a really hard thing to be objective about. I say that slowly because I always get subjective and objective confused. And I have to really say it really slowly for my brain to. So, because I am such a podcast nerd, I obviously listen to loads of podcasts, but I also have my preferences. So, I feel like what I think is exciting in podcasting is probably because of the podcasts that I listen to. > MARY: That's right. NIC: But I just love that it's still an open forum. If you have a phone and access to the Internet, you can do a podcast in theory. So I just love the fact that it's still. I know there's a bit more, you know, chitter chatter about things becoming more commercial and it losing some of its grassroots charm, but the truth of it is, anybody can still do it, which is pretty cool. MARY: Yeah. Like you were saying, you have your own show, you have your own podcasting journey. And I've learned quite a lot from your over 80 episodes of your, the Voice Coach Podcast. They're great because they're. They're short and to the point. But what is your. What's been your biggest challenge of making the show for yourself? NIC: Oh, I mean, for me, it was starting as a weekly show and having to keep it up. So when I started that, the person who was producing, I had a team helping me with it. I was like, I'm going all in. And she was like, do weekly for a year and then see how you feel. So I did weekly for, yeah, a year, which was intense. MARY: Oh, yeah. NIC: I mean, even with somebody, you know, a decade's worth of experience and entire degrees in my subject, like, I, it was still like, okay, come on, I. Stay focused, stay strategized. Plan the next 10 episodes. Where are we going with this? What's happening? What's it linking to? What am I launching next? What are my people getting out of this? You know?  So it was keeping it focused and within, like, in line with the strategy and not just going, oh, god, I need an episode this week. I'll talk about hydration. Okay, so definitely keeping the consistency and the quality up, I think, was hard. And for me, when I first started, this was interesting, but I, and I think I reflected more on this when I wrote my book. When I first started the podcast, I think if I'm honest, I was doing it, it might, this is a bit weird, but I don't know if it's deep or whatever, but I felt like I was trying to prove things to my peers rather than serve my audience in a way. In the sense that I felt like I had to show all my academic research, all the links, all the facts, you know, make sure everyone knows I've got a master's degree in Vocal Pedagogy. I'm very well read, da da da. I'm very good. And I know this because of this book, and I know this because of this recent article. And I know this because of. I was like, my listeners don't care about that. They just want the fucking exercise, I feel like.  So as the show progresses towards, you know, the end of the year of weekly, I suddenly realise, obviously some of my peers listen and that's incredible and they're very complimentary about it. I love that. But it's for my clients. The podcast is for my clients. So I think keeping myself on track and remembering that I don't have to prove myself and my academic standing within this world was an interesting journey and I could just be myself and just do the work that I love doing for the people that I love doing it for was an interesting one.  And when I listened to the first one versus, you know, episode 80, whatever, I think you can really tell the difference in that, both my delivery and you know, at the start I was like, word for word scripting it and then reading it. I'm very good at reading something…  MARY: Right, exactly, yes. NIC: …as if I'm not reading something because that's being a voiceover,...  MARY: That's right. NIC: …so nobody could tell. But towards the end it was much more bullet points. > I wasn't scripting it anymore. So that was an interesting challenge. MARY: I love that mindset shift. I went through that too, where when I started the show and even my business in podcasting, because I worked in radio for 20 years, was downsized in 2018. And then I thought, maybe I'll try this podcasting thing. Is this a thing? And I went into it thinking, oh, I need to show that I have the experience. I know what I'm doing. I've, you know, I did this, I did that, and I didn't have the academics behind it.  And it feels like that societal hierarchy of if you have a university degree, you are better, you know, people will like you more or whatnot. And I didn't. I went to a two year radio program 20 years ago, like, that, that all gets into your head. And I did the same thing. I scripted a Lot. And sometimes I still do, depending on how busy I am and stuff. Because I am a voiceover artist, I can do that. But yeah, I think when you get to that point of, I'm serving my listeners for my clients, for my people. Yeah, they don't care. It's back to that. Who cares, part.  NIC: Yeah. And it's funny, you know, one of the things that people talk most about with my podcast is at the time I had a water bottle that was really squeaky when you took the lid off. And people still come up to me and go, and every time I listen to your podcast, when you take a drink, I take a drink, > you know, like, because I was like, you know, um, I can't be bothered editing this squeak. So every time I need to take a drink of water, I'm going to take a drink of water. We do it together. It's collective, you know, it's like a collective hydration experience. And people always come up to me and go, I've got a squeaky bottle. Or like, you know, it's like Pavlov's dog. Every time they hear a squeak noise, they have to take a drink. > So it's those imperfections that I think can also become the charm. MARY: Oh, I love that. Yeah. Because it's, it's an audio medium, so those squeaks work so well. So in that spirit and me still losing my voice, we're going to take a drink, everybody. NIC: Let's do it. Cheers. Or as we say in Ireland, sláinte.  > MARY: Yeah, so helpful. So, so helpful. I, I cannot wait for your show to come back because you're right, I do want just the little tips and the little tricks. So what, what are your podcasting plans? NIC: Oh, god, I have been mulling it over for far too long. I'm still mulling. I'm trying to decide whether I want to start a brand new show or whether I want to start, you know, do a limited series under the same banner as the Voice Coach Podcast. I'm not sure. I need to talk to some friends, some podcast friends and see what they think is the best thing to do. > But I have an idea because I'm working a lot more in corporate at the moment. MARY: Mhm. NIC: So, helping the people who host corporate podcasts to, um, be their best selves on the microphone and show up vocally as the experts and thought leaders that they want to be within their industry. So that's a really empowering, exciting side of the business that I'm moving into. So I'm wondering whether it might be themed or in that I'm not sure. MARY: Yes. NIC: Still mulling it over. Yeah. MARY: It's always going to be like what we were saying, who your listener is. What is that person wanting? Yeah. NIC: Yeah. Maybe they just want more tips. Mary, Mary, this is good market research for me. > Just need to get off my arse and onto the microphone and get the voice coach podcast going again. MARY: Well, like you said, you wrote the book on it, so you can talk about this endlessly. And I'm sure that it will be so, uh, valuable because I know the podcast as it is right now, now, it has been so valuable for me, so. NIC: Oh, thank you. That's so good to know. MARY: Yeah. Nic thank you so much for your time and your unofficial medical glasses off diagnosis with my voice. > NIC: Yes. Please see a medical professional and, uh, if not responsible for any pathologies, that maybe. There's my disclaimer. MARY: Exactly. NIC: Do seek professional help. MARY: Yes. NIC: If your voice changes for more than two weeks. > MARY: This has been so lovely. Thank you so much. NIC: Thank you. MARY: Oh, weren't those tips great? Yeah, the slug tongue she mentioned earlier, > like, those tongue twisters get easier after the slug tongue. > It's a great one to go hand in hand with the lion's roar that I tend to do. I do the trills and the lion's roar. And this is how you do a lion's roar. It has to do with the tongue and all the muscles in your mouth and your jaw. And so you stick the tip of your tongue behind the bottom front teeth. Okay, so the tip of the tongue is at the bottom of your front teeth. You're going to try and stick your tongue out as far as you can and open up your mouth wide like a lion. But that tip of your tongue is still stuck to the back of your lower teeth. Okay. And then you're just going to exhale with a wide mouth and you go. > You're going to make like a lion's roar face, like my eyes, close, my cheeks, wrinkle all of it. Because you're really stretching out the back of your throat as well when you do that. And I find it goes really hand in hand with that slug tongue.  Because then you're also working your tongue or trying to relax your tongue, and then the trills is trying to relax your lips. > That is a tough one. But if you can relax your lips, that's what that does.  So many great tips from Nic. And I'll be sure to also link her book in the show notes because she says it's got some good pictures if you're a visual aspect person so you can go that way and read her book and look at her pictures. But also in the show notes, I will link to her podcast because like I said, I do listen to her show. She's got some great short episodes with vocal tricks and tips. So get more vocal warm ups through Nic and her podcast. You'll love it.  All right, and also just a quick reminder, if you are still listening to this episode before November 1st, or at least the end of the day on November 1st, I still have my giveaway going for a ticket for you to join me at the Podcasting For Business Conference that's happening November 13th through 15th. But on the 14th, right in the middle of it, I'll be on a panel all about using your voice. It's called Your Voice, Using It, Shaping It And Protecting It. And I would love for you to join me at that conference. I'm giving away a free ticket to it. And this is how you enter.  What you need to do between now when this episode is published to, uh, the end of the day on November 1st, all you need to do is leave me a voice note from my website because I want you to share your voice. So go to VisibleVoicePodcast.com There's a purple button there that says send voice mail. Click on that and I want you to leave a 90 second voice note from your device. Quickly state your name, where you're calling from, Hello, Mary Chan, long time listener, first time caller. And two, say and complete the following sentence stems, The first time someone said something about my voice, it made me feel, dot, dot, dot, and then end with today, what I love about my voice is, dot, dot, dot. Okay? I say leave a 90 second voice note, but if it cuts you off, feel free to continue on the next one. It's fine, it's fine because I just want you to share your voice. I would love to hear what someone said to you the first time. You were like, oh, my voice. Okay, maybe I won't do that anymore. It's happened to a lot of people, so I just want to hear it. And I would love to hear how you transitioned, through that to today.  And then I will draw from all the entries for that free ticket to the podcasting for business conference. Again, it's happening on November 13th through 15th, and it is hosted by Megan Dougherty of One Stone Creative. She was a guest on this podcast. So if you haven't listened to that one yet, that one's just fun because she talks all about research and reports, it's episode number 70. Make sure you get on that because, ooh, actually the 2024 report because I interviewed her, for that episode last year, 2023. But the new 2024 report is coming out this same week. If you are listening to when this podcast first came out at the end of October. So, lots of podcasting reports and information that I'm gonna be delving into. So if you're not into the stats and all that stuff, don't worry, leave it with me. > So, yeah, good luck with winning those tickets with me. Just send me your voice note from my website, VisibleVoicePodcast.com.  On the next episode. I want to explore what it means to do less. There's so much overwhelm in the world these days. We're really, really busy in the world of podcasting in your own work, and then there's also your personal life and everything in between. And I've noticed when just talking to podcasters, to other people, just within my networking, creating a business and my friends and family, there is a lot happening and we are all trying to streamline and just do less. What does it mean if we did less and this specifically for a podcast? How do you do less around your show, yet still create episodes that you love? We're going to explore this, the next time, so join me then.  > > >

How do conversation skills make your podcast process more enjoyable? Even if we're lucky enough to “do what we love,” work tends to have tedious aspects we don't like. Craig Constantine is a passion podcaster who, through the creation of thousands of episodes and rigorous reflection, has built a workflow that simplifies every step of his method, from prep to publication. A consummate conversationalist, Craig's overarching goal is to use understanding and compassion to have exciting exchanges that inspire listeners to dive directly into meaningful dialogues. In this episode, he gets into the nitty-gritty of the personal process that led him to discover his devotion to podcasting. Let Craig's passion inspire you to: Understand the difference between compassion and empathy in conversation Consider why you might not want to bring your prepared questions into the conversation Approach AI tools to create the perfect research assistant Simplify your process to make it more fun in the long run Links worth mentioning from the episode: Listen to Episode 51, Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning with Stephanie Fuccio - https://www.organizedsound.ca/honing-your-podcast-voice-though-second-language-learning-with-stephanie-fuccio-episode-51/ Engage with Craig: Keep on top of what Craig is up to - https://craigconstantine.com/current-projects/ Learn more about Craig's podcasting mission - https://openandcurious.org/ Connect with Mary! Leave a voicemail with your feedback at https://www.speakpipe.com/VisibleVoice or email visiblevoicepodcast@gmail.com Get the full transcript of the episode at http://www.visiblevoicepodcast.com Read up on more secrets with the Visible Voice Insights Newsletter https://www.organizedsound.ca/newsletter To learn more or work with Mary, check out https://www.organizedsound.ca Link up on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marychan-organizedsound/ Engage on Instagram @OrganizedSoundProductions https://www.instagram.com/organizedsoundproductions Show Credits: Podcast audio design, engineering, and edited by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions Podcast cover art by Emily Johnston of Artio Design Co. Show notes written by Shannon Kirk of Right Words Studio Post-production support by Kristalee Forre of Forre You VA Transcript with Audio Description: CRAIG: Oh, no pressure. But thank you so much for inviting me. You get the prize for, of all the people who ever asked me to be on their show, you're the one who worked the hardest. So thank you so much for that. > MARY: A lot of logisticals behind the scene, and, you know, personal schedules and stuff. CRAIG: You actually hunted me down. You asked me through a service that we're both on, and I totally ghosted you, like a lot of people. And then you went and found my website and found my contact form and emailed me, and I'm like, wow, all right, this person is motivated. Yes, I want to be on the show. MARY: Well, what you do is intentional practice of conversations, and I think that is so unique because a lot of people find podcasting as like, oh, I can talk, I'll just plug a microphone in and start talking. > But what is intentional conversation? Why is it so important to you? CRAIG: Well, it's important to me because I found myself having more and more really great conversations, and that's like a whole separate story. And the more that I learned how to shut up and listen, which took me longer than it should have, the more I shut up and listened, the more I enjoyed the conversations and the more other people seemed to enjoy them. And then the people lurking around it enjoyed them too.  So I started wondering, well, this isn't new. Humans have been doing this for a long time. And the more that I looked into it, now I have a books problem. You know, like, oh, here's a book from 150 years ago where somebody had all these things. And then I started having conversations that I was intentionally picking challenging guests. Not that the people were challenging, but, like, I have no knowledge about the topic we're going to have this conversation about, then, what would the skills be that I would need to have that be a good conversation when I'm totally floundering every second of the way?  And I'm like an autodidact nerdy self learner. So it works well for me to be like, whoa, that sucked. That was horrible. And then I, like, write down, why did suck? What was wrong with it? How could I make it better? So I'm always preaching, like, you know, take notes and reflect, um, on your conversations, reflect on your life in general, and figure out, could I try something different next time? Or maybe that just, it happened. The bird flew into my head. That, that went weird. MARY: So then what do you need then to have a conversation? Because, you know, you were saying, I stopped talking, so I listened. But when people think of dialogue, well, you gotta talk. So how do you define that art of conversation? CRAIG: That's a really hard question. That's two different questions. How do I define the art of conversation? I'm gonna ignore how I define it. That's hard. I would say that you actually, you don't really have to talk for it to be a good conversation. And a lot of times when I'm having conversations with people, they are already aware of my, my issues of, like, wanting to dig into the meta.  But even when I'm talking to people who don't know anything at all about me, they have an agenda and the real question is, when you're having a conversation with someone, is the other person aware of their own agenda? That's really, like, determines are we going to have a spectacular conversation. So Mary has ideas about where this conversation is supposed to go, ideas about what she wants the two of us to find here for the people who are listening. So that's like the biggest switch or choice. Like, when I'm having a conversation with someone, I'm, as best I can, always intentional about why I'm here, what I'm saying, why I'm saying, and I'm always curious, like, what is the other person thinking when they started talking? Were they just talking at me because they haven't seen me in a week, or are they really interested in something?  So that's like, the first thing is like, are both people on the same page about what does it mean to have a good conversation? Some people, they just talk. I'm not saying that's bad. It's just, you know, that's a deli conversation that's going to be a little more shallow maybe, or a little different. MARY: Yeah. What about then in the role of podcasting? That being intentional piece, do you then prep your questions and you have your set questions, or do you allow that conversation to unfold? Because, like you said, everyone's got an agenda. CRAIG: Yes. It depends on what you mean by you. So if you mean, does Craig? I generally don't write down my questions anymore in the very, very beginning, which would be like 2017. So I was kind of late to the party, but when I started, yes, I used to be intentional about, the show was all about movement, I would be intentional about, I'm going to talk to this person because I have this question or this story I want to know. And I would write down my questions, and I would imagine, like if I wasn't thinking story arc, but I was kind of imagining a story arc about, I want to start here and then I want to go here, and I want to end over there if I can.  So in the beginning, yes, I totally did that. And I got heavily involved in coaching podcasters. I've literally helped thousands of people as an assistant coach in courses. And that's a very good question for people to ask. So I say yes, in the beginning, write literally, preferably with a pencil, not like typing on your computer, because writing is different than typing.  MARY: Yeah,  CRAIG: Write your questions out in whatever your chicken scratch looks like. And then when you get to the recording, don't bring your notes. That's what I tell people, because the notes will distract you. I have a blank piece of paper on the table in front of me just in case I need to write something down. But when you go into those recordings as the host, all of that homework that you did, you're not going to forget it. It's going to be in the back of your head.  So I would say yes, I used to write things down, and I do recommend that that's a great place to start. And then eventually I can hold the questions in my head for weeks. I think about someone, you know, and I listened to one of your episodes as I was preparing for this, and I had, oh, that's interesting. And I see the kinds of things that Mary is attracted to, and I feel like I have enough things in my head that I could, I don't want to, but we could probably flip this around, and I could probably, you know, be the host if I had to, but I don't want to. > That's, if you ask Craig, how Craig does it, how does everybody else do it? I don't think people write their questions down based on what I hear, When I hear people. MARY: Certain shows, there are some shows where it's like, bam, bam, bam, question, question. There was, like, no follow up. And I feel like, yeah, that's not good either. CRAIG: Right. That's the other problem. That's the opposite of prepared. MARY: Yeah, exactly. So then if you don't write your questions, it feels a lot to me, too, about when I worked in radio, we called this show prep. You know, it's all about being prepared and kind of knowing, like you said, that agenda. But having the follow up questions are the sparks in that conversation. So do you then, have, like, a toolbox of ways to guide a conversation, or like,...  CRIAG: Oh yeah. MARY: …those. Oh yeah? Yeah. Okay, What is that?  CRAIG: So there's a whole bunch of them, and rather than try to rattle them off, but just kind of, like, paint kind of what they are. MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: I have these ideas in mind about, I have a visual, I live, like, 2 hours from Manhattan, so I've been there a bunch of times. And if you ever walk down Broadway is, like, the biggest street, you can walk the whole length of the place. I imagine that in conversations, I'm walking with someone.  So if I'm talking with someone and something strange happens, like, they ask me a question that I wasn't expecting, or they give me a strange answer, or they stopped, like, something weird happens. I'm imagining they, like, turned left into a side street. And my reaction needs to be not, wait, where are you going? Yeah, come back. My reaction needs to be, well, that's interesting. And follow, like, go with them. So I'm always trying to listen, air quoting is useless, you can't even see. I'm trying to listen not only to the words that they're saying, but the emotions that they're conveying. The emotions maybe they're trying to convey, which could be different, and try to imagine what is the experience that that person is having.  So I'm always yammering about my mission is about creating better conversation to spread understanding and compassion and empathy is close, but I think empathy is a thing that might come later after understanding and compassion. And I feel like that is what I'm trying to do, is I'm trying to deploy understanding and compassion as a tool.  So in a conversation, when something weird happens, I'm thinking, do I understand? Like, that's my first thought is, do I really understand what just happened here? Like, maybe I don't understand and I should ask a question about what just happened here. So I have, like, lots of nerdy tools that I can bring up, but they all fit in that toolbox of my first, you know, do I understand? And then, am I being compassionate? Is this person freaking out because Craig's too energetic for them? Like, that happens to people. I understand. MARY: You mentioned empathy, and I feel like empathy is very similar to compassion. CRAIG: Yes. MARY: So how do you differentiate that? CRAIG: The way that I think of it is that empathy is about the feeling and compassion is about, I don't want to say doing something about it, but imagining what could be done, either generally or that I should be doing. So, empathy, if you're empathic and you can't distance yourself from that, that's really hard. That's people who, like, if the elections go bad and then they have, like, a nervous breakdown, I'm like, well, okay, I mean, you're feeling for those other people, but you really need to be able to control that. You have to have boundaries. You have to be able to protect yourself physically and emotionally.  So, empathy, I think of as like, a feelers reaching out, sensitivity. And even I would say I'm pretty empathic. But even if you're really empathic, you really never know. You really can't say, I know what you're feeling, but that would be the goal, would be to feel outward. And then the compassion is, all right if I understand what's going on and I have some empathy for the person, the situation, or whatever we're talking about, then I might, if I'm a compassionate person, I might begin to imagine, is there something I could do about that? Could I help that person pick up whatever they dropped? Or could I donate money to this charity? Or could I help push this car out of a snowbank? That's the kind of thing that I do because I'm a large guy, you know.  But if you didn't have empathy for the person who was stuck in the snowbank, you'd just be like, sucks to be you. And you'd walk right by, you know? So that's why when I wrote my mission. That's why I wrote compassion rather than empathy, because I feel like empathy, I don't want to say it's easier, but I felt like I already had enough empathy and I wanted to work on the compassion part. So very, the mission is very specific to me, of course. MARY: What about then, if you're in a conversation with someone and you don't agree? CRAIG: That depends on why I'm in the conversation. So I don't do journalistic interviews, just because it's not my cup of tea. But I've listened to a lot of journalists talk about their process. And, yeah, if you're a journalist and you're supposed to be getting facts or truth or you're trying to, you know, uncover a particular story, if people say something you disagree with, you need to push back, and you can push back nicely. You can ask clarifying questions. You can, you know, throw in juxtapose. I thought it was X. You can make jokes. There are ways to reveal questions without actually asking questions, which then lets the two of us stand in one place and point at the question over yonder without it getting very antagonistic.  So there are things you can do to sort of direct, or in this case, redirect the conversation where you hope it would go. But that's not normally what I do because I'm not a journalist looking for something I don't have, like a target I'm aiming for, which kind of cuts both ways. Not having a target makes it harder because I think it would be easier if I knew where I was supposed to be going. So I don't often find myself in situations where, no, that's wrong, and I need to get you to tell me the other thing, so.  MARY: Yeah, it's just a matter of, okay, yes, you've said what you've said now. Oh, I'm going to ask you this question to, to redirect. CRAIG: Yeah, ask more questions. Ask different questions. You were asking for about tools earlier. I sometimes talk about people's salience, the word salience. Humans are spectacular at noticing salience. I always say I'm afraid of three kinds of snakes, little snakes, big snakes, and any stick that looks anything at all like a snake. So snake fear and, like, falling. These are wired in.  So there are other things, in conversations when you're listening to someone and you have an agenda and a story arc and a plan, and your brain suddenly goes, wait, what? And, like, it grabs these two things. The thing that you thought you were going to ask about and the thing that just lit you up, you have these two. Those things are related. I'm telling you, they are. That's what your brain just went, these are related. And you could just say, I wonder if these two things are related. You can just say that I do that and give people two, you know, like cheese and sneakers, and people will go, huh, that's a really good question. And then they'll think about it, and it's.  Conversations are just people sharing ideas. There's no rules about my ideas have to follow logically and clearly from the last. It can be whatever two people want to share. So I really feel like people, like I've said, I've seen a lot of people do this. A lot of people take courses and say, how do I do interviews? They really undervalue this magical, I don't want to say device, because your brain's not a computer, but, like, this magical power that you have about identifying the things that light you up. That already works. So that's probably what your podcast is about. If you have a day job as a journalist, then you got to work a little harder, because now you have to. You have to aim those tools at a specific. My producer said, I must do X. MARY: Yes. CRAIG: Just a little harder. MARY: Yeah. Like you were saying we're not computers, right? This. This isn't an AI interview. CRAIG: Whew, good. MARY: You know, we are humans. We have emotion. We have feelings in our bodies that will then guide us to. Okay, what is that curiosity piece? What is that follow up question? CRAIG: Why am I upset all of a sudden? MARY: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, like, go with that feeling in your body and make sure that, you say it out loud. CRAIG: Yeah. A lot of times, just naming the thing goes a long way toward helping both parties understand, because sometimes people say something and, you know, somebody's triggered, and if you're really good at hiding that, well, that's not helping anybody. I mean, maybe if you're really triggered, you're trying to leave the space. Okay. But if it's the kind of thing that can be discussed, people can't read minds. I used to make that error a lot. I'm like, the other person opposite me is fuming. And I don't know. MARY: Yep. You can still hear it in their voice, even though you can't see them fuming. Like in the podcasting world. CRAIG: Yeah. Audio is magical. MARY: Yeah. Is magical that way, for sure.  Let's move into a little bit with your podcasting journey. You have two active shows right now. Even one show is a lot, like, how. How do you manage all of this? CRAIG: Oh, I actually have. Well, if you want to count accurately, I have five active shows.  MARY: You have five active, oh geeze.  > CRAIG: Okay. All right. So how do I manage it? I have a pride problem. I love, you know, shiny things. I love to go after them.  So the very first show that I created, I did not set out to make a podcast. I didn't say, I want to become a podcaster. This is the thing I want to do. I was literally having cool conversations in movement spaces. I would be out, like, in London running and jumping and playing with people at an event or doing a thing, and then I'm the kind of person who just walks up to someone and says, whoever they are, oh, hey, and we start talking.  And then I turn around, there's people walking behind us because I'm talking to somebody semi-famous. And then they say, you should have recorded that. I would have listened to that. That's literally how I got into podcasting. Then I was like, well, I guess I should get some SM58 mics and a little interface. I just started basically pressing record on conversations that I was having. So I'm super lucky, super privileged that that happened to me.  So that's how I started into it in 2017. And I did, like, 40 episodes with no clue what I was doing. Just like, you know, like, I don't know, let's try this. I had a friend who knew how to edit. I'm like, hey Brian, and he's like, use this mic and get this interface. And, you know, like, people just giving me tips. And I went about, like, 35 or 40 episodes along. And then I took a course. And I took the course not, and it's. It was a sofa, I call it sofa to 5K. I had a podcast course, and I already knew all that. I had 40 episodes out. MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: But I wanted to completely tear it apart, and I did. I took it all apart, and I, like, changed the descriptions, and the course made me think about things differently. It was one of the greatest things I ever did. And I met a whole bunch of people who were passionate about podcasting. That was the third time they ran the course. I went back as an assistant coach for 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11, for the runnings of the course, till they stopped the course.  And along the way, I kept having more ideas. So the first show was, I was having conversations. People wanted to hear them. But the next show which came out, I was like, I wonder what would happen if you did a daily podcast. That was just me for 30 seconds reading a quote every day and didn't tell anybody. Just, like, stealth launched the thing. So I did 1,400 episodes of that show.  And then while that show was going on, I started a podcasting community, and I started interviewing the other podcasters in the community and working my way up with, like, who should I talk to after I did a show? And that show was all about podcasting.  So once I fell backwards into it and figured out how to do it, then it became this. Like, I imagine painters might just, oh, I got a paint. They run to the easel and they start painting. And, like, I do that with podcasting. I, like, I run to the microphone and I start making. Or I get people and I make a recording. So that's how I wound up with all these shows. It's really not any harder to have five shows. It's just, how many episodes are you doing? That's all that really matters. MARY: Yes. CRAIG: So, uh, you also, I haven't forgotten, you asked me, how do I do it? But if you want to follow up on that before I tell you how I do it. Or I can just tell you how I do it. MARY: Yeah, how do you do it? CRAIG: How do I do it? I'm a checklist and process nerd. So I have, for every one of the shows, I have a separate document that I maintain that tells me every detail. Like, this is the, you get an e nine minor guitar chord, goes here as the music bumper, and then the intro, and it has every step all the way through to emailing the guests at the end to say, thank you, your show is published. Here's the, you know, please share.  And if you do ten of those, then you'll be editing your list. And then the list gets a little more detailed. And eventually, all of the things that used to make me get stuck, I don't want to do the editing. I'm, I don't like editing. Oh, I don't want to do the show notes. All these things that I get stuck on. I just kept making it simpler. What's the simplest thing that could possibly work? And that's what I, and I broke it down to more and more steps until, when I look at the checklist, I have an episode that you go out sometime this week, and the next checkbox is so easy. I'm like, you know, I could totally do that, that I could do that.  And that's. That was how I broke it down, was to just make it simple enough that I could find a simple next step for whatever was going on. And then the checklist helped me remember. So if I'm not doing anything for three weeks. When I come back. Oh, right, here's where I was. Here's how I start, here's how I finish. MARY: What's an example of making it simpler? What does that mean? CRAIG: So we were talking about AI before. I use ChatGPT to write the episode notes. Shhh. I say that at the bottom, I wrote, written with, actually, it's written with help from ChatGPT. MARY: Yes. I was just going to say, I like that you have it written down. CRAIG: I'm a computer nerd, but I'm not an AI. Like to me, I was like everybody else, a what? How do you work this? I had no clue. But I have a checklist that helps me prompt the AI to give me what I want. So just like little nuances of sentences, like I'm resisting urge to open it up and read them, but it's like these really detailed, like, I want, say, I want one sentence to be the hook sentence for the thing that might be like 120 word paragraph that I've slowly fiddled with and kept in a document.  So now when I learn what the hook sense, that it's like copy, paste, and it actually says, write me five variations of a sentence and then it tells it what to do and then it writes me five sentences and I look at them and none of them are good enough. But somebody, once I forget where this comes from, somebody said, working with AI fixes the blank page problem, so you should totally use it for everything because it will do a terrible job and you will rush to fix it's work. And it gets me going every time.  So like, I rush and I'm like, no, no, you cannot use the word delve. No, no, no, edit the sentence, right? And then I edit my instructions and I say, you may not use the word delve. Put that in the instructions. So now when I have to write episode notes for like, say, a 15 minute conversation, I'm like, I can do that in 3 minutes. Watch this. > And I'm all done, you know, copy and paste and, and I have to edit, you know, like everybody has their personal writing style. I don't bother to try and make it do my style. I just edit the thing. I look at the paragraph and I go, hey, I don't like this part. Edit it. And then at the bottom I just write, written with help from ChatGPT.  I tell everybody who asks, like podcasters. It's like having the greatest research assistant. This person is tireless. They have infinite patience. No matter how many dumb questions I ask, they're just like, here's your answer. You can, like, just ghost them for two weeks, come back, they pick up right where you left off without a single. As long as you realize it's really more about, I think of it like the first stage on the rocket launch. Get me moving, get me off the ground here so I can get a feel for what this thing is supposed to be. And that's what I use it for. MARY: What about not AI? What can you make simpler? That has nothing to do with AI, because that's what everybody's talking about these days. CRAIG: I stopped editing my shows. How about that one? If you've listened to, so the one show is called Movers Mindset is 170 episodes. I think Podtalk is at 150 or something like that. And basically the last hundred plus maybe 150 episodes on those two shows that I've released. I don't edit the audio.  Now, full disclosure, I'm actually hard of hearing. I have hearing aids and crappy hearings. I'm a terrible audio editor to begin with, but I also can't afford to pay ninety cents a minute to edit all this stuff. So I went, well, what if I had a conversation that was so good, there wasn't anything that had to be cut out? How would you do that? Yes, and then work on that for 300 conversations. I've done about 500 recorded conversations for my shows, for other shows, not counting my guesting appearances. And every time I do them, I listen back and I'm like, why did I say that? Why didn't I shut up? > Because a lot of times the guest is about to say the great thing, and I'm still like, wait, you got to hear me. It's like, no, I'm the host. Shut up.  So I've looked at, like, exactly what percentage of myself, when I'm the host, do I want in the audio? The answer is 25%. I want one quarter Craig and three quarters of the guest. And I occasionally drop that into Otter, which will give you a percentage speaker rating. And I make sure I'm at the target number that I want. And if I'm over or under, then I think about that for my next conversation.  So, if you don't want to edit, could you just make the conversations better? Could you screen out people who are poor speakers unless you really need them? Like, there can be issues sometimes. I won't really want to guess because I want that representation. I really want this voice to be heard of. So I'm willing to live with thumbs and aahs and pauses. Just put it out raw you know, edit the levels, run the anti white noise background thing, 30 seconds. I mean, sometimes I'm, I have a 45 minutes conversation. It takes me five minutes to go from raw audio to mp3, final mix down, including the time it takes my Mac to make the mp3. It's, you know, because otherwise I wouldn't get it done if I didn't cut that corner.  And there are other ones, like, I stopped doing introductions in the guest. Like, I never, when I'm recording, I never ask the guest to tell me who they are. Tell us, no, that's a disaster. And I don't. I don't read that in anymore for a while. I would open the show by saying, oh, my guest today is. I skipped all that. I got tired of recording intros and outros because I actually don't think people listen to them. So I skip them. My show opens, and I say, Hello, I'm Craig Constantine. There's like a sentence or two of what the show is. And then I asked the guest the first question, and we just have a conversation. There are other things about, oh, I can only do so much social media. So I have a WordPress plugin. I hit a button, and it just posts the three platforms. And then I'm like, good enough. Yep. I'm not making short form. I figured out how to do YouTube auto load from RSS. Good enough. MARY: Done. Yes. CRAIG: Moving on. I just looked at every single thing on the list that was in my head, and I went, this is stressing me out. Write it down. And then when I looked at the list written down, I identified, I can't do this. This is too much. I want to have hundreds, thousands of great conversations, and I don't want to do all these pieces. So delete pieces until I only want to do the part between record and stop and anything else that I absolutely have to, to make the show go out. MARY: And I think that's the difference, too, between people who are podcasting as a passion, like you do, or those who are like, I need to generate income, so I have to do X, Y, and Z, right? So it's like talking about that agenda piece. You were, you were saying at the very beginning, it's like, what is your goal for your podcast? So what would you define as success, then, for your podcast? CRAIG: Oh. Sometimes people can read each other's minds. I was listening to some of your shows, and that's a question you ask often because it's super important. And I'm like, this would be the spot where we need to talk about what Craig thinks success is.  Success, in my opinion, for my shows is so for the two shows that have guests, if somebody listens to an episode and then they manage to email in real life, whatever, talk to the guest and they can skip over the parts that make conversations suck and go right to the good part. That's the definition of success for my show.  So one of the shows is all about parkour and has french names and all these things, and there's people who run and jump and play all over the world, and everybody's pretty famous that I'm talking to. If they, somebody runs into that person and says, hey. And just goes right to the part of the conversation where both of them are enjoying it. Not, my guest, who's semi famous is like, oh, another fan. But where the fan comes up and says something and that person goes, oh, yeah, I'd love to talk about that.  Like, that's my definition of success. People listen to the episodes that I did, and that enables them to have a better conversation with that person, even if it's just email or, you know, direct messaging or whatever. That may be a weird definition of success, but it turns out to be hard to do that. But it only means I have to have a certain kind of conversation. It doesn't mean that I have to advertise or, you know, kill myself in editing, I hope. > MARY: Yeah. CRAIG: That nobody listens. MARY: That's always the podcaster problem.  CRAIG: Yeah. MARY: Nobody's listening. CRAIG: Well, there's only one problem and lots of problems. MARY: So what are some other problems that you have with podcasting? CRAIG: Uh, I spend too much time on it. Spend too much time on it. It's like I have an embarrassment of riches. So I understand. I'm not claiming this is weird, but I understand why people say they're nervous about reaching out to guests. I do not have that problem. I'm a computer nerd. I have something like 600 guests. I'm not exaggerating in queues. And I wrote software that mails me weekday mornings that suggests, you know, you mailed this person three weeks ago and they never got back to you, so you probably should message them again. Like, I wrote software to keep track of all that, so that I can just turn the crank. I do the fun part, which is, new email, Hey, Bob, would you like to be on the show? Or like that kind of thing?  People mention a guest to me and I put it in a certain little config file, and I don't forget, two years later, it comes up. And then when I look at the notes, I know who recommended them. And maybe I, maybe they said, I'd really like to hear them talk about X. Like, I figured out a way to capture that stuff. You can do it with pieces of paper or excel spreadsheet, whatever you like.  I think a lot of the struggle with guest outreach is in it's just an infinite number of threads. Like, it's complex, and it's always going to be complex. Don't put your friends into customer relationship management software. That doesn't make it better. So I just figured out, well, what would this have to be for me to enjoy doing this?  So I have, the other problem is, if I turn that crank, if I start messaging people, I can do like five touches in a day in like ten minutes, because I just send an email, send a thing, go to whatever platform they're on. You do that for a few days, then people start showing up in your calendar. And like, that's the other side is make sure people can schedule themselves in using Calendly or something.  If I'm not careful, all of a sudden it takes about two to three weeks. Three weeks out, all of a sudden it's like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I have all these podcast recordings scheduled. And even if I say one show per day, I can still wind up with two or three on one day because I have multiple shows. > That's my problem. I removed all of the sticky points, and I really wasn't paying attention to that means it's all going to go really fast. So I have to like, woah, slow down and try to keep it under control. MARY: Wow, you definitely have a very unique challenge. > CRAIG: Nice choice of words that you're going to say, that's very special. MARY: Earlier you were talking about, you got a lot of advice. You give advice about podcasting. So what was one advice that you got that did, you know, good. You're like, you know what, this is an advice that's out in the podcasting space, don't follow it. CRAIG: Oh, well, it's, uh, a similar version of that. Question is, what's something I disagree with that everybody else would be mad at me, and that's that you have to publish on a schedule. That's the piece of advice that I patently, I started on that at one point, I had a show that was all over the map, and I actually had hired someone to work on my team. I said, job one, get me on a schedule, which meant get the guest work and all that stuff. And I got on a schedule and I published every week for like a year and a half. I have completely given up, I don't care about, I don't care about schedules. So I said, like, mary, when was my last episode put out? MARY: I'd have to look, I don't know. CRAIG: Right? I mean, even if you went and listened, it's okay if you didn't. I don't think Craig is that interesting. But, even if somebody goes and listens to one of my shows, thing they look at is not the publication date. They go to the chronological list. They want to listen to the most recent one. Maybe they scroll back and listen to the trailer, or maybe they search for a word.  So I think that the advice to get yourself on a schedule. Okay. If it's your first episode, yes. Get on a schedule for five or ten or something, seven. But have it in your mind that you're planning on getting off the schedule, or you're at least planning on slowing way down. Because weekly, if you're. If you're, like, a one man band, and if you're doing things by all by yourself, weekly is insane. MARY: Oh, yeah. CRAIG: Even if it's hostile, weekly is like the treadmill. So I, I think that's the advice that it's super useful if someone is literally starting out on the sofa to 5K journey of podcasting. Yes. You need to imagine how do I, because it teaches you to close the loop. If I start here and I got to do all these steps, and I got to be done by next week, because I got to do it all over again, and then you start to think, oh, can I do the guest outreach in parallel? So I was working multiple guests, could I work ahead? So I got one or two in the can I. It teaches you those things. But then once you learn those lessons, then let go of having to publish on a schedule is my advice that I think didn't serve me because I took the course and people said that, and I was at 40, and I was like, yeah, I already want to get off this. > MARY: Get off this, because it is a lot of work and a lot of pressure on yourself to make sure it goes out at a certain day and time. CRAIG: Yeah. And, like, your die hard listeners, I've had people talk about. We talk about feedback and hearing from your fans. I've had people come up to me at, like. Like, I bump into them in person, and they talk about the show, and I've had people say to me, I can't keep up. Like, sometimes they drop, like, three or four in one week, and people are like, what are you doing? I can't listen to all this. It's too much content. MARY: That is a lot! CRAIG: Well, it is, but from my side, it's not. And I just had. It was a 30, 40 minutes conversation. I had a blast. It was awesome. And then I blasted through the post production, right? Sometimes I'm done, and if I'm really flying, I can be done in 45 minutes. I hit stop. The guest hasn't even, like, finished with their. You know, and I'm like, I'm done. It's crazy. MARY: So wait, why not then? Wait. Like, okay, if you've got this back, not back log. Like, then why not schedule? CRAIG: Because then the next week, I did three more, and then the next week I did three. Was like, well, there's another scheduled to, you know, never. And I also. I felt bad sometimes. I don't know, there's something about it. Everybody says, you always love all of your children the most. And every one of them, when I'm done with them, I'm like, that's the best thing I've ever created that has to go out right now.  It's part of my drive to make and do and create. And I feel like when I hit stop, I'm doing a disservice. I'm sitting on something I shouldn't be sitting on. And I have had some weird situations where I had some that I sat on for, like, ten months because I get nervous about that. Like, why isn't this done, well, because I can't get a transcript from the thing. I got stuck on details.  So, I really just love. I don't know, I love the feeling of, wow, I had a great conversation, and now everybody else can hear it with as little time between those two statements as I can get. MARY: Okay then, I'm checking out the time. Like, I had scheduled a certain amount of time with you, but then it got me thinking, then, do you schedule, like, a certain amount of time, or do you just let this conversation go? Because, like, I think I can talk to you for hours, right? And I literally mean that, you know, people say that on shows, but, you know, there has to be an end. CRAIG: Oh, I guess this is like a whole nother show. Okay, so I will say, yeah, you got 60 seconds before the time you allotted. However, I do not have a hard stop. So you could, if you want to record a second shows worth of material, knock yourself out.  Here's what I will say. People often ask if they're. If they're good podcasters, it occurs to them to ask, how do I have a good ending to my conversation? How do I have a good ending to my show, if I have a host and guest situation, and I always say, well, the first thing you can do is cross off anything that you know that won't work.  So, if you want to have a good ending, do not stop when the show sucks. > Right? So the friction and this is good. You always want to feel this as a host when you're on your show. This is great. This is where we should stop when you feel that tension of, this is awesome because people are going to slap their headphones off and go, that was awesome. And they're going to be like, they're going to go talk to somebody about the show or they're going to share it or whatever.  I mean, maybe don't stop right in the middle of an idea. But that part where we all want to go, wow, that was great. Now what do I ask? Oh, wait, there's more, Mary, let's talk about that. Don't do that. Just go, that was awesome. Thanks so much, Mary. It was a pleasure talking to you today. And hit stop. Hit stop when you're going is great, and you'll be good. Then there are a couple other little tips. Conversations go in, I call them saccades, not cicadas, the insect. Saccades, is a reference to how you move your eyes when you're reading. I don't know if people talk about cicadas in conversation, but, um, I'm doing it. There's a saccade to conversation. It's follow the bouncing ball, and it's about 20 minutes per hop on a conversation. MARY: I've heard about that. Yeah, yeah. CRAIG: And you might need to do people going, what? You might need to do a few hundred conversations to get out your metrics and look at the things. And what happens is, if you just let that bouncing ball go, you can't really stop at 30 if you're in the middle of a bounce and you can't really stop at the 20 minutes because that's the sucky part in the middle where you need to have a follow up question to get us back to the >.  So that's another thing is to understand, like, as a host on your show, understand some of the dynamics of conversation. Have your, have your conceptual head only if you can manage it. Only half in the show, half out of the show, watching the clock, knowing what you wrote that you wanted to get to, that you haven't got to yet. So, you know, oh, I have to get this one more thing. The next bounce of the saccade is going to be this. If you can manage to stay out. That's hard. Then that lets you have some of that. You know, you can have your head. You like old gopher, you know, like you stand up, you look around a little bit. Okay, let's go back into the next 20 minutes. So that's the, those are the things that I think about when I'm trying to figure out where to stop.  Really. Just don't stretch. You get to the end and it's awesome, and somebody says something profound, just say, that was awesome. MARY: That was awesome, Craig. CRAIG: But I did it on purpose.  MARY: I know. CRAIG: But, like, it's tough to do that when you're ahead. When you're really as a host, if you're having an awesome conversation, you get completely lost. That's good tape. MARY: So, yeah, that is. But I always end my show with the same question, and I'm going to let you go. So my last question for you is, what are you excited about podcasting right now? CRAIG: I totally should have prepared for that because I heard that what am I excited about podcasting? Well, in case people couldn't tell, I'm not excited about anything. I'm really excited about more people are starting to want to talk to me about conversation, and that's great because that means that I'm either, well I'm going to say I'm not doing something offensive. At least it means that things aren't going badly pessimistic.  So I'm really excited about having the chance. It's been happening more often to have conversations like this, where the whole thing is very meta about conversation. So that's really kind of makes me want to start another show. > I'm going to do more of this, but I'm not going there. So that's what I'm going to say. I'm really excited about and getting back, I was mentioning before I was sick, so I'm, like, on a pause at the moment. So I'm excited to get back to having more conversations, but it's really. I feel like I'm getting more interest in talking about talking. MARY: Yeah, I think that's what we need, because it's that human connection that we're all craving, you know? CRAIG: Oh, yeah. MARY: So thank you so much for this human connection with me and for the conversation. > CRAIG: My distinct pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. MARY: Thanks so much, Craig. I love the enthusiasm in his voice and for the work that he does. And, you know, during the conversation, he mentioned saccades and following the bouncing ball. I love that he brought up how conversations cycle through around 20 minutes, and we talked about this before, actually, in a previous episode with Steph Fuccio in number 51, we talked about Honing Your Podcast Voice Through Second Language Learning, and Steph had done similar research as well. She mentioned that same phenomenon around 20 minutes for a conversation. So if you want to revisit that episode number 51, the link is in the show notes.  So after listening to this conversation, what advice would you take from Craig's podcasting journey for your own show? Now, like I said on the show in the beginning, his podcast is a passion project and his success is not going to be the same as your success. So we're not saying you need to follow what he is doing. Like the way how he doesn't schedule. Scheduling is important to some people because it provides them structure and to make sure they do things so that they go out. Craig's really great at finding out what works for him, so I hope this episode makes you think about what could potentially really work for you. It's his idea of making things simpler. That's what he found works for him. But what does that mean for you?  Send me a voice note with your feedback at VisibleVoicePodcast.com. you'll find the purple button that says send voicemail. From there, click on that, send me your feedback, and let me know what would be simpler for your podcasting workflow. Or as always, you can email me as well VisibleVoicePodcast@gmail.com.  On the next episode we're talking voice tips. How do we embrace our voice as a tool? We think of podcasting as an easy thing to do where you can plug in your microphone and just start talking, but it's not as easy as that. We'll explore more of your voice next time. > > >

Embark on an enlightening conversation with Heather Mckenzie Patterson and Katherine Sandoval Taylor, co-founders of On Stage Collective, as they recount their journey from college vocal performance majors to pioneers in the immersive performance program landscape. From adapting to major changes during their studies to overcoming setbacks caused by COVID-19, their unwavering dedication and problem-solving spirit shine through. Through auditions and immersive learning, they've empowered aspiring performers, shaping the future of arts education. Join their exciting journey as they gear up for their upcoming New York show, continuing to offer aspiring artists a chance to shine and fulfill their dreams within a supportive and transformative community at On Stage Collective. Guests: Heather McKenzie Patterson and Katherine Sandoval Taylor Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez TRANSCRIPT MARY: Hi everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host Mary Sturgill. This podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. This is also the podcast where we talk to entrepreneurs and innovative thinkers about their endeavors, and we share their stories with you in hopes of inspiring you. And today we welcome guests Katherine Sandoval Taylor and Heather Mckenzie Patterson, who are both Furman alumni and founders of the immersive production company On Stage Collective. Katherine and Heather, welcome to the show.  Katherine: Thank you for having us. Heather: Thank you so much, Mary.  Mary: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to start because I was of course looking at your all's career paths and your accolades and stuff and you have been… both of you have been in some of my favorite operas and performances. Can you talk and Katherine, we'll start with you. Can you talk about some of your favorite shows that you've been in? Katherine: Yeah. So um, gosh, I've been so fortunate to really be able to check off a lot of bucket list roles in my career. Some of my favorites, I guess, have been Maria in West Side Story. That was a role that I was looking forward to playing my entire life. And I have played that role twice. Love. One of those was actually in South Carolina, with an opera company in South Carolina, and we rehearsed at Furman. So that was really cool. Another one of my favorite roles was from Light in the Piazza. I played Clara and that was a really beautiful production. Another favorite stage memory of mine was when I did two national tours, two national jazz tours. And that was a really great experience, kind of like living the tour bus life for a while. That was fun, and I really got to kind of explore a different side of my voice that I didn't… I haven't had the opportunity to perform that much with, but it was really… it was a really cool experience doing that tour. And I worked with some incredible musicians and singers that I learned a lot from. So yeah, those are some of my favorites.  Mary: Yeah, I love that. Okay. Heather, what about you? Heather: Sure. Um, I would say that, gosh, it's been a minute since I've sung any opera, but I would say that…I did that with Arbor Opera Theater up in Michigan. After I finished my master's up there at Michigan State. And another role that was… I actually only completed scenes of this but it was Sophie from Deb Rosenkavalier..and that's one my favorite operas of all time. So that was really fun. Got to revisit that a couple of times. And I would say one of my most like meaningful memories was singing at Carnegie Hall, which I had done a few times versus a chorister in high school. That was of course like, oh my gosh, I can't believe we're here on the stage. You know, really exciting. And then I went back as a singer with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra and chorus. We went there a couple of times and we sang Peter Grimes, the full opera concert version of the opera there. And while we were in rehearsal for that, I was singing in the chorus it was a big chorus for that and I, the soprano walked down to the front and I was like, next time I'm on this stage, I'm going to be out front in a big poofy gown as a soloist and I even said it to a friend of mine and of course next year like that's, that's where I'm going to be next time and it was one of those like manifest moments where that's what happened. So the next time I got to perform there was as a soprano soloist with a big choral orchestral work, we were singing a Schubert mass, and I bought the big pink gown and sang at the front of the stage with one of my favorite conductors. And it was a blast and probably the best part was just that I had a lot of friends and family come to the performance from all over the country. We had a big party afterwards and so that was just really special to celebrate. Like I saw my parents, you know, in the 12th row like oh my gosh, freaking out. It was really nice to have that memory with people that I love.  Mary: Yeah, I love that idea of manifesting that, you know, speaking that into existence right? I think that's what well, I think a ton of artists do that no matter what, you know, whether they're performing arts or the you know, different kind of art, but I think that that spirit that comes with just being an artistic person kind of drives that in you and you and you have to believe them, right?  Katherine: Yeah, definitely.  Heather: And it can be scary, I think even like I would call myself a recovering perfectionist. And so I would be like, if those perfectionists out there know you don't want to even do something unless you know you're going to be awesome at it like the best perfect at it, right?  Mary: Yeah.  Heather: And so manifesting something like that or saying something out loud that could easily never happen. Like that could easily never work out for you. I wouldn't, it's not in my nature to want to really, like put it out there unless I knew for sure I could just make it happen. Mary: Right. Right. I don't think you're alone in that.  Heather: It was a leap of faith, you know? Mary: Yeah, for sure. I don't think you're alone in that. I think all entrepreneurs and innovative thinkers have that. I mean, we talk to other entrepreneurs on this podcast and they want to get the best, most perfect product or iteration of whatever their venture is right out there. When in fact, we should just literally just do it, right?  Katherine: Yeah, sometimes Heather and I joke about the phrase that we need to implement in our lives a bit more, which is better done than perfect. Because sometimes, as Heather said, being a perfectionist, I would also lope myself into that category of recovering perfectionist. I feel like being a perfectionist can sometimes hold you back from opportunities and, and at least taking that first step to try and that's important to kind of acknowledge that sometimes you do have to take that leap of faith just to maximize your potential.  Mary: Yeah, absolutely. 100% I love that. Say that phrase again. I want to make sure our listeners get that.  Katherine: Better done than perfect.  Mary: Yeah, better done than perfect. That's my new motto. Heather: Always within reason. Mary: Of course. Yes. Absolutely. We always put our best foot forward anyway. So you guys have known each other for a long time. You were roommates here at Furman?  Heather: Yes, we were. Longer ago than I care to say.  Mary: So you're both vocal performance majors while you were here. And of course, you both went on to get higher degrees and stuff. But was there any competition between you for roles and stuff while you're here?  Heather: Oh, that's so funny. Well, I want to clarify that I started out as a vocal performance major, but I did change my major to a BA in voice. And that was because I wanted to double major with psychology. Mary: Oh, that's great.  Heather: At least at the time, you couldn't get like a Bachelor of Music in one thing and a Bachelor of Arts in something else. You had to get a Bachelor of Music in two things and a Bachelor of Arts in two things. And I remember the conversation sitting down with Dr. Thomas, the department chair at the time, to like deliver this news that I wanted to change my major and how was that going to affect my scholarships and was I going to be allowed to do it, you know? And so I…he said, yes, of course, Heather, we will support you doing that and so I was able to shift. And as much as I could, I tried to take like the classes that the performance majors were taking. And so it was just a matter of like, oh, I guess I'll just overload every semester that I'm here to get in all of the credits for both majors. But there were things that I didn't get to take because I wasn't a performance major, just specific classes. One of them I think, Kat you'll know the…Was it a counterpoint class that you had to take a class…that I didn't have to take and by then we were roommates and so she was just like, I hate this. Katherine: She could have helped me. Heather: But to answer your question about competition… I mean, I don't think so. I never would… I'm very competitive with myself. But with the people that I love, like my my ride or die BFFs I don't want to compete with them at all, you know, like I want to celebrate them and to be honest, if there was ever a time where that might happen like, I mean Kat, you can say if this is not true, but I would just not want to audition like I would just want…if I knew it was something that best friend like Kat really wanted, like, I just wouldn't want to audition for that. I would be like, you know her hype girl for that role rather than like, out of my way let me try, you know. I don't recall any competition. Katherine: No, I don't…Heather and I aren't competitive with each other. And I feel like it's just kind of like a personality trait that we both share. We weren't competitive then with each other and we're not competitive now. I feel like you know, I feel very strongly about surrounding myself with strong, talented, passionate women. And being surrounded by strong, talented, passionate women encourages you to be better at what you do. It's not about competition. It's about lifting each other up and empowering each other and learning from each other. And that's something that Heather and I… I've always really respected and looked up to Heather and learned a lot from her and I feel like that hasn't changed. We did that in college. I felt the same way then that I do now… that we empower each other and motivate each other. So, no, there was never any competition between us.  Mary: Yeah, I love what you say about empowering each other and uplifting each other. And I think both of you have been teachers for close to 20 years now. What has informed… how is that experience and your performance experience informed On Stage Collective and what you're doing now? Katherine: Oh, 100% Yeah. Such a large can of worms.  Heather: Well, the reason that we began the company was out of our two studios. So just the background information is that yes, we both have been teaching in different iterations for years. Then we honed our own private studios. I taught at a few universities for over 10 years, 12,13 years, something like that, but we were both building our private studios of voice and piano. And we both think big and we want what we put out there to be excellent. And I think it's been important to both of us to provide great opportunities for our performers, our students to be able to do big things, big performances, big opportunities. And so before, before COVID, we were talking about like, where maybe if we partner up, we're in totally different cities, totally different states. But what if we brought our students together? And really this was… Kat brought this idea to me. What if we partnered together with the students in our studio? And could we do a performance somewhere excellent that they don't have access to and even we don't have access to on our own, but could we pool our resources, pool our students, our talent base, and make something really incredible? And that was like the first conversation. You know, how it started was just to do something with our own two studios that we couldn't do on our own. Kat,  would you agree with how that started? Katherine: Right. And it just kind of took off from there. So we were thinking big, and we took that leap of faith like we just talked about. It was a little bit scary. And I mean, honestly, it felt impossible to think about performing. I mean, fast forward to where we ultimately decided we wanted to try to perform which was 54 Below at Broadway's living room. I mean, every famous Broadway star you can think of has stood on that stage and has… and behind that microphone. And so that was a little bit intimidating and seemed out of reach. And we just put…we're such big thinkers…it was something we wanted to try for at least and then we surprised ourselves and then we had a full, all of a sudden, we had a full cast of people from all over the country ready to perform with us and make this big event happen. And it kind of just like snowballed from there.  Mary: So talk a little bit about that process. And how did you, you already had some of the students, but did all of your students participate in that and how did that kind of come to fruition?  Heather: Yeah, we auditioned them because, you know, I know what my students sound like, but not Kat's students and vice versa. So, we wanted to make it as fair as possible too, you know, and have an outside person judge and choose who would be performing. So we brought in a panel of people, not just the two of us, but other music directors to listen to all of the singers and they didn't know whose student was coming, you know which student was coming from which studio. And so the students submitted videos, I think two full songs, and we had the panel and ourselves rank the singers and came up with kind of like, okay, our max number of singers was such and such number. And so not everyone got to go from our studios and not everyone from our studios auditioned, but we selected people from that audition, and it was basically half and half. Half students from Kat's studio and half from mine. Now, this was pre COVID. And I did want to back up because when Kat mentioned the leap of faith…I feel like the first leap of faith was… I remember where I was standing. We were on a call and it was like should we just call 54 below like is that a thing? Can we just call them? Let's call them. So we did, you know, go to the website, call the number. This was a better done than perfect situation because we didn't we didn't have anything formulated yet or planned or when or who, what. We just called and that got the ball rolling and I think that built the confidence because it was just a normal person on the other side of the phone who just walked us through their requirements and what it would take to be selected, to be able to perform there. And then it's just steps, you know, one foot in front of the other, do this thing, and this thing, then this thing. And so that first cast, I think it was like 24,26, 28 singers, something in that number, and it's foggy because that group did not end up performing at 54 below. And that is because our first cast was set to perform July 2020. So we all know what that means. So we had planned and this was just the two of us putting on lots of different hats and utilizing every skill we'd ever learned or gained to auditioning singers to craft the show to pick the music to assign the songs to the singers to arrange songs like over the phone. How does this chord sound for this because that cannot be a trio… Mary: Wow. And you did that over the phone?  Heather: Yeah. Before zoom was a thing. We were just on the phone trying to arrange songs together. And we did and the singers learned the music. It was so exciting. And it was I think April 2020 that we had to go, all right, if we don't make a choice right now to postpone or cancel this production, like we'll be within the 90 days of owing all of the money that we owe to the hotel and all the things right so we have to call it at some point. And it's it felt still like oh so optimistic April 2020 us. You know, or maybe by July like this, this virus will just burn up in the summer heat and it'll go away. And that did not happen. And so we did. We postponed it at that point to say okay, cast, we're gonna we're gonna try to do this again, but we need to, you know, wait and we tried to do it the following summer, July 2021. But unfortunately, I think there was some kind of whatever strain had come out that previous winter by December 2020. It still wasn't looking good. Mary: Right.   Heather: And people were still worried about going. It was almost worse then. And so we decided to, at that point, sadly cancel. So we had to just say… just end it. And that was heartbreaking. Really difficult to deliver that news to the cast. And then that is when that was like a big shift for us, which was okay, we're not… that's over but we just can't give up on this dream. We've worked so hard. We've put all these pieces together. We know we can do it. But when and how? And we were watching our own students in our studios every performance that they were in that year got canceled. Every graduation, every prom, you know all of our events after the other. Yes, our college students, just devastating. And talking to our singer friends, our teacher friends, directors just, it's just obliterated and it was so so sad. And so then we were like, Gosh, why can't we just open this up to anyone? We don't have to limit this to our own students. Everybody is just dying for a chance to perform again. Why don't we contact everyone we know? All of the choir teachers, theater directors, singers, voice teachers across the country, this network of people that we now know from our performing and teaching and grad schools and stuff and ask them Hey, do you have students who would want to audition for this? We're going to do this. It's going to happen and now we're opening it up to anyone and everyone. And you know, the first iteration was video auditions. So we could still do that, you know, no problem, of course. And so we did, and we were able to build two casts of singers and perform two performances in 2022, which was so satisfying. Many of the singers were still coming from our own studios, so that was especially satisfying to see them performing after all this time. Even some of them who were in that first 2021 cast that was supposed to perform…sorry 2020. But now with singers who…Maine, California, Florida, Michigan, like all… Katherine: Washington State. Mary: All over the country.  Heather: Yeah. Singers from all over who were just craving performing again. And that was really, really nice to fulfill the dream that we had set out to accomplish and also be fulfilling the dreams of all of these young artists. That was just spectacular. Mary: You know, I think you know, 2020 threw a complete loop and especially for those of you who started companies quite right before and… but we do have a lot of entrepreneurs who really either started right before or during and it was a great time… I will say this, it was a great time for planning and for iterating right? Like figuring out okay, this didn't work because… obviously you guys ran into a brick wall, right? And, but so many people would stop at that point, right? That's.. We failed… you know, COVID took us out, you know, kind of thing. How did you and because I'm sure those thoughts entered your minds at some point. And Katherine, I'll start with you on this one. How did you kind of push those thoughts out and keep going? Katherine: Well, I mean, at the root of it, I feel like artists specifically, I can't speak to other entrepreneurs and different, on different platforms. But artists at the heart of everything are resilient. I mean, look at Broadway artists, Broadway was probably the last, the last group of people that went back to work. They were out the longest, and then… but resilience, you know, wins the race. So I feel like even in my own studio, we were.. I was creating opportunities for my students that were unique. And it pushed my thinking outside of the box in a really exceptional great way that I am grateful for, because it made me think about art, performance art, and singing and acting in a different way than I ever had to one thing that we… in my own studio we started doing during COVID, and we have maintained this project to date, was I produce professional music videos for my students, and I partner with a cinematographer. We started that because of COVID because all of our performances for the year shut down. I was on Zoom teaching all of my regular lessons. And so we decided to do these outdoor music video shoots with a cinematographer that I hired and I directed the shoots and every, every music video had a different theme and a different concept and a different aesthetic. And that was a product of COVID and that's the resilience in artists that you see. It doesn't surprise me that there are other entrepreneurs that kind of like… used the COVID time as a springboard to launch their dreams into reality to kind of regroup, put their nose down, and think about what they wanted to do and kind of get a plan and I feel like that's exactly what Heather and I did. We, you know, if we would have if COVID wouldn't have happened and we would have gone on to do the performance as we planned, it would have been about 25 of our singers from each of our studios and it would have been wonderful, and it would have been great. But what happened in 2022 was phenomenal. And we were so lucky to have so many of those same singers back with us and I was thrilled for them, but to also add other people into the mix, to give those people that we didn't know until now the same opportunity to fulfill those dreams was just… it's just so exciting and it's just it was an amazing experience for us to watch I think especially because Heather and I are both people who love being on the stage and we have had many, many opportunities to fulfill those dreams of our own being front and center performing on grand stages. But to give that back to not only our students, but to really any performing artist that is looking for that opportunity. That is just so fulfilling.  Mary: Yeah. And I think COVID showed us there are different ways of doing things. We don't always have to do things the conventional ways… we can work remotely or do things remotely and I mean, you might not have had the people from St. Louis or from Washington state if you had not had that experience maybe.  Katherine: Exactly.  Mary: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Heather:  You know what, Mary, I was trying to think back to how long Kat and I were deliberating, giving up, you know, we're just not doing it when COVID hit and I can't even remember a single conversation that we had about not moving forward. Mary: I love that.  Heather: And not trying again. And that's not to say that we're special. I think it's exactly what Kat was saying about artists being resilient. It's, you know, how many times have we auditioned for things and gotten a no? If you aren't already thick skinned from getting rejections as a performer, maybe it would be difficult to persevere. But that's the name of the game. That's what this is like, you know how… so many no's before you get a yes. This was just another no that we just had to move past and maybe maybe it's rose colored glasses looking backwards. I know it was really scary. And I know there was some floundering as to you know, what does this look like next, but I just don't think we were ever ready to throw in the towel. It was just, it was just a wait and plan and ideate and come up with something better. So I'm very grateful. So so grateful to have a partner and best friend forever ride or die. That was my partner that just doesn't give up. No one I know… And this is just me. I'm just gonna like wax poetic here about Kat, but I don't know anyone..anyone, any person in my life who has persevered more than she has both professionally and personally. So I look up to her. I admire her so much for that. And that encourages me to not give up and to persevere. And so it was, although so scary, I wouldn't have wanted to face it with anyone else because I knew that she wasn't going to give up, I wasn't gonna give up, we're just going to, you know, keep moving forward. And I know that not all partnerships are rosy, or perfect and anything like that. And certainly we've had our conflicts and our challenges, but I think our relationship was forged at Furman in those beginning stages of really crafting who we are as people and artists and that just builds a beautiful foundation for our professional partnership. So I'm grateful for that. Mary: We've talked a lot on this podcast about especially when you're starting out on ventures you have to be extremely selective about who you partner with, who you hire, who are your first hires, and those kinds of things. And I think this is a prime example of, you know, this was probably a natural partnership just because you guys have been friends for so long and you both have the same interest and the same talents and want to get to the same place and help people get there too, right? One of the things that I was thinking about is that my students sometimes when I give them a project or they pitch their projects to me, right? And then they pitch their idea and then they start throwing up roadblocks about why they might not be able to do this idea. And my comment to them is don't place roadblocks where there aren't any right? And so I think that's a good kind of philosophy that you guys, you know, kind of have too, is that even though you know the 2020 one got shut down, that's a temporary, you know, thing, right? And we can work around it. We can go around that road that roadblock right? We've talked a little bit about the audition process and that kind of thing. What's so… I guess impressive to you guys about the just that immersive learning that you guys promote and supply the space for for your folks? Heather: Kat, do you want to take that or do you want me to? Katherine: Why don't you start Heather, I'll jump in though. Heather: Sure. Yeah, so that's really important to us. I think. And that comes from the fact that we have been performers and teachers. So we know in our own experience as performers that you learn by doing and every performance you learn something every show that you're in, you take away things that you use in the next project, the next contract and same with teaching. We're always learning as teachers, right? So I think that although we know how important training is and education, and what we do for a living is teach singers how to sing. But then you really have to do the thing to gain the most from it. It's also like learning a foreign language. How do you really establish fluency in that language? By immersing yourself, by going to that country, and being around people speaking that language. So it's the same with what we do. And that's what we were initially looking for for our own students… was an immersive experience. These students who say I want to go sing on Broadway. Well, have you been to Broadway? Have you walked the streets of New York City? Have you been in a New York City rehearsal space? Let's go do that. Let me take you there and you can experience that life and you can work with Broadway stars, guest artists to impart wisdom to you and then you can perform on that stage at 54 below where these other famous people have performed and decide for yourself is this really is this…do I want this more than anything? Now that I've been here now I'm inspired to go after it and really do the work that it takes to get here for real for real. So that's what we continue to aim for. And that's, you know, the mission is to for it to be immersive and experiential and, and, you know, there are a lot of programs out there that provide classes and you can go to even New York and do other camps and those kinds of things. And a lot of times it's classes and they bring in maybe also Broadway stars to teach classes and to do q&a sessions. And maybe they perform a song with these folks at the end or you know, but are they the stars of the show? That's what we wanted to do. We really wanted to make our performances feature these young artists. The young artists aren't the backup singers. They're not in the background. They are on the stage. They are doing the performing.  Katherine: They are the show. They're the show. Mary: Yeah, like that. Yeah.  Heather: And that's how they learn best and grow and are challenged and we've had singers come back and do the next year's show too, because they know that they will continue to gain experience and the education of a lifetime from doing the thing. And so that's been really encouraging to see as well. Mary: Yeah. Katherine, do you want to add anything to that? Or that was actually a pretty good answer.  Katherine: Heather was talking a bit about how giving them this real life New York experience. I feel like in a way not to say what we're what we do the week that we're in New York is perfect and glossy and there are no blood, sweat and tears put in. But I will say it's kind of giving these artists a taste of the New York experience the New York performing experience in New York rehearsal experience, the New York Broadway experience, the tourist experience, all of those things without moving to New York to have to, you know, pound the pavement and go to all the auditions and get a million nose in New York City. I will tell you getting a million no's is always difficult. But getting a million no's in New York City when you've moved there for you know, to pursue your dream is really difficult. So we're not saying that we're, we're, you know, pushing all of those things aside and giving them this path to Broadway. But what we are giving them is an opportunity to experience all of those things for a week without having to move to New York City to try to go to a million auditions to do one performance at 54 below. We're giving that to them kind of in a really neat little fun, awesome package with a bow on top. Mary: I always tell my students how do you know you want to do something until you actually do it? Right? You might think you want this this life, right? But you don't know until you actually do it and you're either gonna fall in love with it or decide that's not for me. Right? And this is a great way for your students to do that without the expense of living in New York. And like you say pounding the pavement working three or four jobs and going through auditions and classes and things like that. Heather: And I feel like you know, there we've had several, there are two people that are coming to mind, that have made life shifts, career shifts, school shifts based on our program, and that is incredible to see. I know. I know one person specifically I'm thinking of, she attended… She was one of our original cast members. Then she came back for our first actual performance in 2022. She performed again in 2023 and after the 2022 performance, she texted me and said, I've changed, I'm changing my major. I'm going to be a music major and I've decided I have to live in this city. I have to perform here and that is what I'm destined to do. And that was amazing. I've also seen people come, you know that said, you know, I'm not I'm specifically not pursuing a professional career and performing but I will be back to perform with you every year because this is the best of both worlds. I get to live my life as an accountant. And I get to come and perform in New York City, not just like in a church basement, but like on the stage of 54 Below. I mean, you're getting the best of both worlds. And so I love to hear stories like that, from either sides of that. People who are making a life shift and saying I have to do this for the rest of my life. Or people who are going to say, you know, I'm not going to do only this for the rest of my life. But this gives me that opportunity that I would never have if I didn't do your program.  Mary: And that's important too, right? Because it creates a life balance. It gives people that creative outlet, they get to hang out with people who have the same interest and work on their personal craft. I love that. So what's next for On Stage Collective? Heather:  We are excited to be opening auditions for our next New York cabaret, which is going to be next June. So the date of that performance will be June 15. So the week leading up to that will be our immersive week in New York City. And auditions are officially open already. So in the audition is filling out an application, attaching a photo of yourself, headshot type photo and uploading too, one minute video cuts and that's it. So we're excited about that. Mary: And they can do that at onstagecollective.com? Heather: They can. Yeah, they head to our website. Our social media handle is onstage collective official. And so we always post information there as well about what's upcoming. But really excited to go back. I think one thing that really solidified this past performance this past June in New York was our team. So that first go around, it was just Kat and me doing all the things and that was a fun time but what was really special is honing our full staff. So we have an incredible music director and an incredible production assistant stage manager. We have found great band members to join On Stage. We have an incredible photographer and videographer. And now we've got this beautiful group who work really well together. All creative, artistic, passionate, hard workers. And, and that's been really fun. So we're able to now continue with that same group rather than reinvent the wheel every time, which is exhausting like any listener knows. So this feels really good to settle into our group, our staff, and it feels like you know, a family of sorts. And so now we know I mean our music director Jeremy Jacobs is like Johnny on the spot. He's so creative, can do anything. Kat always jokes that whenever we ask him hey Jeremy, what do you think of this or can you do this? His answer is always absolutely. Like who doesn't love hearing that? You know? Right, he's ready for anything. He's so excellent with our  cast members, both our youngest members who are the youngest, 13 years old all the way through our adult members, you know, the accountants who are coming to live out their dreams in these performances. So that's been really fun. We had a great group for this past year and hoping to continue those collaborations with those artists. Mary: Yeah, those kind of yes-men are great.  Heather: Yes-men and women are wonderful to have around.  Katherine: I would like to add, you know, the auditions are open and sometimes a misconception that is out there. I'm not sure how it's out there but people kind of like select themselves out of these auditions by saying like, Oh my god, well, I'm too old. I can't do that. Like I mean that's I'm that's not for me. Or my daughter is too young. She's only 13. She can't perform in New York City. We this past cast I don't know if our youngest,  our youngest was 14. I mean, yeah. So we accept cast members for this same show from ages 13 through adults. And that's something that makes a show really exciting and interesting. These… it's a variety of people not only from different walks of life and different career paths in different parts of the country, but different ages in different places in their lives. And that's really cool.  Mary: Yeah, that is really cool. What, how many folks can you take at one time?  Heather: It's about 25 in a cast. It's all online. If you go to our website on stage collective.com, there's an auditions page that will show you what we are currently casting for… what opportunities are open. And you can click on the application there. Pretty short application. You upload a headshot, two videos, one minute cuts of two songs, and we accept singers on a rolling basis. So as we receive them, our panel will listen to the auditions and make casting decisions. And we'll cast them in specific types of roles whether it's a lead role or a supporting role, that kind of thing. And once our cast is full, it's full. Mary: All right, so before I let you guys go this afternoon, I want to have each of you give a piece of advice to a young entrepreneur in the arts. And when I… when I use the term entrepreneur, I'm talking about not just people who have created their own businesses, right, because I think that artists by nature are entrepreneurial in spirit because they have to go out and sell themselves you know, to the directors and the producers and the people who are making the decisions about roles and whatnot. So Kat, I'll start with you. Can you talk a little bit about some advice that you would give young artists and entrepreneurs? Katherine: Yeah, so I was thinking about this question earlier. And the fact is, so I have two pieces of advice. But the fact is, when I was thinking about it, I wanted… I was like, how can this advice not sound intimidating? Because the fact is, being an entrepreneur, being an artist, being a human nowadays, it's just hard. It's just really difficult. So there are challenges and they're low moments. But the two pieces of advice that I would say are really important, and I think about this all the time, like probably every single day. The first thing is, you've got to have hard work, dedication and commitment and those things pave your path to success. There are very few exceptions and very few shortcuts to a path to success. It really comes down to hard work, dedication, and commitment. If you want anything bad enough, you have to be ready to put the work in. There is no… there just not a lot of shortcuts. The second piece of advice that I would say… this applies to artists. When I first heard about this concept, it was about being an artist, being a singer, but I feel like it really applies to anyone either an entrepreneur or just a person living their life. I feel like it's really important… I tell my students this all the time, it's really important to establish a small inner circle of trusted people, colleagues, artists, coaches, therapists, friends that are there for you and help you in whatever you're doing, whether it's business, whether it's artistry, whether it's just your friends, but because the fact is, everyone has an opinion. And sometimes there are just too many cooks in the kitchen. And everyone's opinion is not always helpful to you on your journey. So it's important to have those trusted inner circle of people that you can go to and say, hey, like for instance, I have a business coach. I don't get business advice from just every person on the street, but I guarantee you every person on the street has an opinion on how I should run my business. That is not…that is not useful for me on my journey and, and in the worst case scenario, it's actually traumatizing to hear everyone's opinion about you at all times as an artist specifically, everyone has a thought on the way your voice sounds. Everyone has a thought on your performance. And if you listen to every single person who had an opinion about your voice, or your business or the way you're living your life, it would be traumatizing. So it's very useful for me as an artist and an entrepreneur and as a person in general to have an inner circle of people that I trust, that I know I can go to, and that their opinions are valuable to me. They matter and they affect me and everyone else gets a nice, very polite, thank you very much. I Mary: I think we should learn that phrase. Thank you very much and then take what we want, leave what we want, right? Because I believe what you say is so true about everyone's gonna give you an opinion. I don't know how many entrepreneurs I've talked to on this podcast that say that every single one of them have faced naysayers, you know, and if you face too many and you open that circle up too big then it can be paralyzing, in fact, right? Katherine: And I'm not saying that there shouldn't be people that tell you no… that tell you when you're making a mistake. Heather would be the first person to tell me if I was making a mistake, and I appreciate that. I don't build an inner circle based on people who are yes men. And yes women. I build my inner circle based on people that I trust, and that their opinions and their advice is valuable to me.  Mary: Yeah. All right, Heather, why don't you take that question? Heather: Yeah, I'll say that my first piece of advice because I've got two also…goes hand in hand with that, which is after you surround yourself with that inner circle of people whose advice you trust….after that, you have to trust your gut. What do you have without your gut? You know, you have to trust your gut and so take all of that information, hone all of that down and then believe it and trust what your gut is telling you to do. And sometimes it will go against some of the advice that you receive. And that can be really scary, but sometimes you have to do that. And the second piece of advice goes with that, which is don't be afraid to fail. So trusting your gut might mean making a mistake and having to learn from that. We have made mistakes in our business. We have hired people that didn't work out or spent money on things that didn't bring value to our company and to our clients. And those are hard lessons, but we improve… we get better because of them. So trust your gut and the fear is but what if I fail? Well, what if you do? Then you're going to learn and you're going to brush yourself off and do better the next time. So that's my advice for people, for students, for college kids, or especially artists and entrepreneurs. Mary: Yeah. Ladies, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation and I could probably talk to you all afternoon, but I know we're all busy. Katherine: Thank you for having us.  Heather: Thank you so much Mary. Mary: Yeah, absolutely. So just to remind everybody, you can get in touch with them. Just go to onstage collective.com If you want to find out more about those auditions and the kinds of things that they're doing with their students. So that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember, this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. Remember, you can catch the podcast two ways now. You can check us out on our YouTube channel as well as of course listening to wherever you listen to your podcast, but make sure that you don't miss an episode by hitting that subscribe button so you're notified when new episodes are released. This episode is produced by Communication Studies major Isabella Martinez. Thank you for tuning in. I'm Mary Sturgill. Until next time everybody, dream big.

In this episode of the Class E Podcast, Dr. Kasie Whitener and Host, Mary Sturgill explore the fascinating intersection of Taylor Swift's career, entrepreneurship, and the power of love.  From the impact of Taylor's re-recording on the music industry to her savvy business decisions in negotiating streaming rights, the conversation delves into the entrepreneurial lessons embedded in Taylor Swift's journey. Join the discussion as they uncover Taylor Swift's entrepreneurial blueprint, offering valuable insights for leaders, innovators, and dreamers.  Guest: Dr. Kasie Whitener Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez TRANSCRIPT: MARY: Hi there, everyone. You may have noticed that that is not our regular music. And that's because today we are talking about Taylor Swift. Yeah, that's right. More specifically, we are having a discussion about her innovation, her entrepreneurial spirit, and the economic impact that she is having on our country and now that she's started her world tour, probably other countries. So I want to welcome you to this episode of the Class E Podcast all about Taylor Swift. This is the podcast that is brought to you through the partnership with the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And of course, I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. And can I just tell you I've been so looking forward to this conversation that we're gonna have today, and I hope that you enjoy it as much as I've enjoyed researching it and chatting with my friend Kasie Whitener. Dr. Kasie Whitener is joining me today. Kasie is an author. She's an entrepreneur, she teaches entrepreneurship at the Darla Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina. She and her daughter are Swifties. I do believe. Kasie, that you have some proof of that. Yeah, there we go. The friendship bracelets.  She and her daughter are Swifties. And she's my friend of course. So when I thought about this podcast episode topic, of course, I thought about having Kasie on the show to talk with us about that. Kasie, welcome to the show.  KASIE: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and any excuse to talk about entrepreneurship, which I get paid for. And also Taylor Swift which I don't get paid for. This is like it's perfect. It's the perfect combination of both.  MARY: Yeah, I love it.  “It's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me…”  MARY: And of course, she is not the problem. She's our topic today. That's Taylor Swift. She has been in our lives for 17 years, guys. I can't believe it's been that long. We've known her since she was a kid. And now of course as especially with people like Kasie who have children, she is in her children's lives as well, socially. And so today the conversation is going to be about her innovation, her entrepreneurship, her economic impact, as I said, because now her entrepreneurship is bolstering others, not just herself. And Kasie I want to start with…we talked about, you know, her fandom and, and all of that and how she's pulling more fans in every day and I want to start with talking about her marketing. Can you talk about some of the things that you've noticed that she's doing right?  KASIE: Yeah, so you know, I'm hosting this digital marketing class in the honors college right now at the University of South Carolina. And one of the things we have been talking about is online communities, and the ability of online communities to amplify the message of a product, a company, a brand, right? So Taylor Swift very clearly a brand…has put together this Eras tour, which the idea of it is so beautiful, she's got 10 albums, she's walking people through 10 different versions of herself essentially. We're seeing her entire kind of career all onstage at the exact same time. Artists typically come forward… they do the one album that they're promoting right? And they'll play mostly from that album, but in her case, she's decided she's going to do them all and so depending on which show you get to see, you get to see two or three songs from each of the albums.​​​ The fandom has gone crazy online because a lot of people are going to a show… they're seeing three or four songs from Lover, they're seeing two songs from Folklore, they're seeing one song from you know…the version she put in the movie theater only had one song from our favorite album, which is the one that she released over the summer, Speak Now Taylor's version, and so when we you know you kind of get obsessed with it. You're like, oh, this is my album. I can't wait and then you get to the show, and you're like, oh, she only gave me one song for my era, you know? And so then people just keep coming back for more and more. So everything around the excitement of it. This online kind of cult following for her, the community that has grown up around it. She also drops a bunch of hints and creates these little kind of Easter egg nuggets that people started building up these conspiracy theories and well she said this at this time and she was wearing a blue dress on this day and I can't even pretend to keep up with all of that except that it all shows up in my Instagram.  MARY: Mine too. And my Tik Tok and my Tik Tok.The other thing is with those little easter eggs…and there's a Tik Tok video going right now that came up on my feed last night about the Easter eggs. I think this is brilliant on her part because like you said: one, she's creating that community, that family. She talks directly to her fans that other artists…not in a way that any other artist does right now I don't think or has in the past I should say. But the Easter eggs… we all love a good mystery right? And we all love trying to figure things out so she has us intrigued and on the edge of our seats.  KASIE: Well, the way that she's predicting what she's going to do next. So everybody kind of says, Well, are we going to see this next? Are we going to see that next? So of course, I know we're going to talk about this on the business side. But she's been rerecording some of her earlier albums because she didn't own the master recordings. But she did own the copyright of the music itself. And so she re-recorded them so that she could then profit off the albums being sold, right? So we have all these albums where they're Taylor's version albums. And the Taylor's version albums are the ones that she actually re-recorded, which there's a whole other sideline there about really that is because when you get to take a look at your own work and do it again, you're a different person. You're a different artist, and it's just been incredible to listen to how her voice has changed. And sorry..I went crazy fangirl, down the rabbit hole with that one.  MARY: No, it's true though. No, I totally agree. It's true. I was listening to something, maybe her it was her first version of 1989 or something. And, or maybe it was, I can't remember which one it was quite honestly. But I was listening to the first version of her first album. And then I was listening to the newer version. I believe it was the first album. I might be wrong about that. I was listening to a version of one of her albums. And then the other version and her voice of course has matured because she started when she was a kid, right? And we can see the same evolution and other people we've known who've grown up from kids. I see this in Kelly Clarkson who can sing anything right? But I'm also seeing it specifically in our girl Taylor, and just the re-releasing of those with her, with the maturity in her voice and the way that she sings certain lines I've noticed and the different clips that I've seen online and stuff is totally different too and people are here for it.  KASIE: Yeah, well so the two…I think the two songs that we hear on that first album that are so… you hear “You Belong With Me,” which is the song about the girl in the bedroom, you know, and the boy that doesn't realize that she should be more than a friend right? There's that song and then the other song is the “Love Story” song which is about the guy getting on one knee and asking her to marry her right? These two songs… very wistful, very teenagery, teenage-y like this kind of first love ish kind of sound. And then when we hear it in Taylor's version, it's this kind of backward looking, nostalgic sort of feel to it, and I gotta tell you, I think Gen X is here for it. Like I think when we first heard those songs, we were too old for those songs, right? Like they were teenager songs and like the turn of the early 2000s, mid 2000s. Like we were past that right? And you get into now this age and she re records them and you hear that nostalgia to them and you're like yes, that's the voice I'm looking for on those particular songs. So I definitely think she swept in an older generation with the Taylor's version on some of these older versions.  MARY: Yeah, I completely agree with that. We're both of Gen X right? And I have been swept up with all of this. I mean, I've always been a Taylor fan because I mean her poetry, her lyrics are just… No one writes a song like she does except maybe Dolly Parton, right? In my book. That's my personal opinion. Which is why she has a gazillion awards and that kind of thing because she's recognized by her peers as a good storyteller, as a good songwriter. And it's that storytelling, I think that is the key to her marketing, right? So it's the songs , the lyrics, it's the storytelling with laying the Easter eggs for her fans and giving them hints about things when things are coming out and she and her PR team. You know, we know Tree Paine's her publicist, they are brilliant. They make a brilliant team. I think of Tree Paine as the Olivia Pope of the music industry.  KASIE: You're not wrong about that. So I think you're right about there being… the marketing piece here is knowing exactly who your audience is, and what they want, and giving them what they want. And it's interesting because I've been listening to these other podcasts lately that are talking about how the danger of pop culture is that it gives us exactly what we want. And so it's not necessarily stretching us or making us better people and this kind of thing. And it's almost like Taylor's like I get it, I get there are people for whom that's the thing they do, right there are philosophers, there's whoever else that's out there that wants to make us all better people. What I'm here to do is give you exactly what you want, which are the stories that you recognize, the lyrics that you like, the poetry that you're looking for, and she's delivering. I think right now she's firing on all cylinders.  MARY: Yeah, I agree and when I talk to my students about the importance of storytelling because I teach storytelling and its place in marketing, these are the kinds of stories that I want my students to come up with, right? And if successful entrepreneurs come up with these kinds of stories, we just had a podcast recently with Chad Price of Kettlebell Kings, and they were making that online community before the athletic communities or the workout communities that we see that are online now. And they were doing that back in 2012. So I think that's… and of course, Taylor has been doing it since day one just about….  KASIE: Well, let's talk about that online community growth over Taylor. Because I think it's so organic. I think that people go to talk about what they're interested in and what they care about. And she's been quoted as saying things like anybody who makes you feel bad for the things that make you happy, that's like the worst kind of person, right? And so instead, she's encouraging this idea that people should come together and talk about things that make them happy and that's the feel, that's the vibe in the Taylor Swift fandom..is this sense of this makes me happy and and sharing it with other people makes me happy. And when other people are happy, I also feel happy. Like there's this tremendous joy in this community, which I think is something unique that we don't see in a lot of other fandoms and I'll be honest to say like, I'm not in a lot of other fandoms. I'm not in the Star Wars fandom. I'm not in, but my kid is in a lot of fandoms and her take on some of them is like there's some purity tests to it, right? Like are you really a Star Wars fan? Do you know this, that, or this, right? But you don't get that from Swifties.  Swifties aren't out there being like how Swiftie are you? Do you know this about that? Do you know this about? Instead they're just like, welcome! What can I share with you that you don't know?  MARY: And have a friendship bracelet!  KASIE: Have a bracelet! Yeah.  MARY: I love that. Um, is there anything else from a marketing standpoint that you've noticed or that you've even talked about in your classes with that, that our audience should understand about maybe some takeaways that they could take away from Taylor to their own businesses?  KASIE: Yeah, so marketing is all about channels, right? Figuring out how to reach your customer, how to get the right message in front of them at the right time. So understanding what their buying cycle looks like, giving them, you know, awareness, giving them a reason to make your choice that you want them to make, right. All of these kinds of things. And I think what Taylor does a good job of is using all the channels available to her. So she has her music, obviously, right she's got video appearances. Anytime she's on, you know, interviews or talk shows or anything like that promoting things. She's done her own video content. So if you haven't been to see any of these videos, the short films that she's made to get over these videos, like take yourself down the rabbit hole because it's totally worth it. But then on top of that all the social media channels too, where she's purposely using different social media channels to drop different information and trying to bring all those fans access to her no matter where they are, which I think is a huge marketing lesson for anybody that's doing marketing. Meet your customers where they are, and bring them the messages that they need to be able to choose you and choose your product.  MARY: Right. And that movie, the Eras movie, that's doing exactly that. We're going to talk a little bit about the economic impact of that a little bit later, but that's doing exactly that.  KASIE: To meet them where they are, yeah.  MARY: She's meeting them where they are because not everyone can afford concert tickets or to go to the cities. I mean, we have a lot of rural people in America who love Taylor Swift, right? Not everybody lives in a city. And so she's giving everyone the opportunity to get, you know, the feeling of the tour to be able to experience that in some way in the theaters, which I absolutely love.  KASIE: I gotta say my favorite reel about the Eras tour movie was the video of her actually watching it. Like, this is the first time Taylor Swift has seen Taylor Swift on tour. You see her in the movie theater, just like, yay! She's as excited as everybody else. And I can't even imagine what that must be like to watch what you've created there live for people to see and enjoy. Well,  MARY: Well, and I want to point out too that that is not an act. You know, people see through when things like that or an act. The joy that she shares with people is truly her and who she is. I mean, I don't know her… like I haven't met her, but I feel like I have. And that is a great skill for anyone in the public eye to have or anyone who is the face of the company to have because that can transcend not just the music industry or the creative industry, right?  KASIE: I think the critical word there is authenticity, and especially if you're trying to appeal to Gen Z. Gen Z is so cynical about what they see everywhere. I mean, online and politicians, in person, in the classroom, like Gen Z is so cynical, because they've been so overexposed, right? They've seen so much and authenticity really resonates with them, and they and they pick it out. And I think Taylor Swift just has a gift of being authentic all the time. She is…what you see is what you get. She is who she is right? And um, people will say that. Other celebrities will meet her and talk about or they'll just be like, it's just amazing how kind and gentle she is and how she's just genuinely interested. And whether or not you've enjoyed your experience either at the tour or wherever they are like, it's… people are blown away by her.  MARY: I think one of the things that show that is the growth in her Instagram following. You know, when we first had this conversation about doing this podcast, I checked her Instagram following and it was at 265 million followers. Just in the past month, it's grown to 276 million followers.  KASIE: Wow.  MARY: Yeah, that's a lot of growth.  KASIE: That's 10 million people jumping on board in the last month.  MARY: Exactly, exactly.  KASIE: That's wild.  MARY: So I would like to get a look at her Instagram stats because that's… just based on that number, it's gotta be crazy.  “I promise that you'll never find another like me…”  KASIE: There's this great viral version of Taylor, while they're writing this song, and she's sitting on the couch and she sings it, she puts her hand up like that she gets really excited about it, and it's in the writing process. It's well before it's ever been recorded. It's like as she's putting down the lyrics for the first time ever. And I mean, you can't stage that, like it's, it's clearly not staged. It's obviously spontaneous, and her joy in the process and how excited she is when it clicks for her, and then we hear what it turns into right afterwards. But I think that that really resonates with people too. That creative process piece really resonates too.  MARY: And that's part of the story too, because she's showing behind the scenes of how she does her work. Right. And that draws us in. I get that same feeling. I understand that feeling when she puts her hand up in the air and is like I'm onto something right here.  KASIE: Yes.  MARY: Any creative knows that feeling. One of my students the other day, or even this morning, one of my students figured out how to do this great thing for her video. And I did it for her basically I was like, woo hoo, you know, whatever.  MARY: Yeah, so proud that they have that moment where everything just comes together like that. So I want to shift now to talk about her Eras tour because we've been talking about it a little bit but I want to dive into the economic impact of this thing. Right? Because we had three great tours I think going on this past summer, Beyonce, Pink, and of course Taylor Swift and the economic impact, specifically of Taylor Swift, since she's our topic today, has just been crazy. The overall impact of the tour should be around, and this is the United States part of it, North American part of it, $2.2 billion just in ticket sales, right? That doesn't include the hotels, the merch, the food, all that other stuff.  KASIE: And don't forget the hospitality tax that everybody's paying, right? So all these cities that have posted or that have had this massive 11% or whatever it is hospitality tax, you know, yuck it up communities, but you're getting all of that too.  MARY: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So based on research that I found, I believe this was from Time Magazine, maybe… typically every $100 spent on a live performance generates an estimated $300 and ancillary local spending on things like hotels, food, transportation, I forgot transportation a minute ago. But for the Eras tour…That's just a regular tour, right? For the Eras tour, it's anywhere from $1300 to $1500.  KASIE: Per $100 spent.  MARY: Per $100 spent.  KASIE: Nice.  MARY: Yeah, so that's boosting all of those local economies.  KASIE: All the restaurants, all the hotels, yeah, all the transportation. So Uber, you know, taxi services. Everybody else. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk a little bit about the structure of the Eras Tour. So what I think what sparked our first conversation about this was how impressed I am with the way the Eras Tour was built. So usually, and you can watch these videos where they talk about, they break down the economics of a tour. Usually a team will go out on and you'll see the artist kind of zigzagging across the country. They're hitting, you know, sort of regions, maybe but they're basically going all over the map right? And the Eras tour is designed very intentionally right? It was designed years out actually. Where it was okay, we're gonna go to Atlanta, we're going to play for Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday night, and now everybody that was performing those three nights in a row is now off, right Monday through Friday as we travel from one place to the next place. Then we're gonna go to the next town. We're going to set up and we're going to perform Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night, right? And so we have these three shows in one place performing three nights back to back, which is like an easy Broadway to schedule, right? Like it's an easy schedule versus like a Broadway schedule, but they're doing it right? And the setup is there on Friday, and it stays up through the whole weekend. And then they bring it down and then they travel on Monday, right? This and they've been very intentional about the cities they've gone to and how they've moved around the country. This has never been done before this particular way or something on this kind of scale. And it's the economy of it. The idea that they're not wasting gas, they're not wasting hours, they're not wasting transportation time. They're not they're not there's no waste here, right, which is so compelling to me.  MARY: Yeah, let's remind everybody that normally, in how this is different, is that a concert will go to one place for one night, and then pick up and go to the next place for the next night. And so you have all that picking up and moving. And in this particular case, they're saving all of that picking up and moving…that time, that energy the people power, but she employs hundreds of people, if not 1000s…  KASIE: The jobs are there, right, and you mentioned the economic impact like that's there. It doesn't cost less necessarily except that they are maximizing the economy of being in one space for three days in a row and selling and those shows are selling out all three shows in every place, right? So yeah, I mean, I think from a design perspective, when we talk about an industry in general, entrepreneurship, always, it's about disrupting the industry. So if you take a look at what's happening in our industry, this is very blue ocean strategy stuff. All of you business nerds out there, just Google Blue Ocean Strategy. It'll say like, what are, what is not going well in our industry? What does our industry not do well? And one of the things that music industry does not do well is show to show to show to show, because there's just so much like this venue is not available, that town's not available. We're using planes. We're using buses. We're all these different things, right? And she really got into a place and said, Look, we're gonna do this well, and in order to do it well we're gonna have to book it several years out, we're gonna have to plan you know, this far ahead. And I want to say they started doing this like 2020 is when she started booking this tour.  MARY:  Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so and planning of course before that, even before. I mean, she, she probably was thinking about this years ago, because I think she really thinks that far ahead. In her head she does.  KASIE: More than likely 17 years old. You know what I'm gonna do when I'm 30?  MARY: Exactly when I'm 30 this is what's gonna happen. Right. Um, we were talking a minute ago about the impact of her re-recording. We all know Scooter Braun bought her masters and Kelly Clarkson tweeted to her redo them, you own the copyright, right? The initial releases, especially her first album sold over like $10 million, 2 million copies, or brought in $10,000,000, 1989 brought in 10 million, but now she's re-releasing those and they're making that much money again if not more in some cases.  KASIE: The second time around.  MARY: The second time around. Taylor's version. So unlike other artists who haven't done this, they release it, they release an album and yay, they get all the money and the economic impacts of all you know, all that entails. But now she's doing it round two.  KASIE: So what's interesting about this and again, like we go back to this concept of Blue Ocean Strategy. What do people in my industry not do well? And one of the things that artists typically don't do well is they don't capitalize on reusability for their songs, right? But streaming services have taught us that people don't they don't need to own the song. They just want to hear the song, right? And so as you look at okay, streaming services, there's all the there… The people who own the master copies are making money on the streaming services, you know, .000001, you know, penny, per play or whatever. Okay, here's all these artists that are like, what am I going to do about that? Like, it's just it is what it is right? And instead, you see Taylor go well, number one, I don't want Scooter Braun making all that money off of me for the streaming services, no matter how much it is. And number two, here's the thing I can do about it, which is I'm going to release a new version of something I know people already love. And this I mean, this feels like something out of the Disney playbook. When you go… Disney's got their animated Beauty and the Beast. They've got their live action, Beauty and the Beast, they've got their Broadway Beauty and the Beast, right? Like they had their TV version of Beauty and the Beast like they took that Beauty and the Beast and they've ran it for whatever it's worth right? And so that's not new necessarily, but the way she's gone about doing it to be able to monetize existing property, things that you already do have possession of, and then find a new way to package it. I think it's just genius.  MARY: Yeah, and I read also somewhere that because of the Ers tour…  obviously streaming of her music and this happens for all artists but in particular, since we're talking about Taylor Swift… if they if they're having a concert, especially one that's so huge, like this one, right, the streaming of their music goes way up. So then that of course has the other economic impact of raising more money, right? For the artist and for whoever gets a piece of that pie. Right? So I think that's super interesting is that we can't leave that out of the economic impact as well when we talk about that.   KASIE: Another one of the channels when we were talking before about channels. So on streaming services like Spotify, you can create your own playlists, right? Some of the most popular playlists are fan created playlists. Taylor's got fan-created playlists that are replacing the original versions with the Taylor's version as they come out. So you're not getting both versions of “Love Story.” As soon as the new version came out, the old one was gone. And so it's like they're erasing her digitally. They're erasing these old versions digitally. You can still access them. They're still on Spotify. But the fans are saying those aren't the ones we listen to anymore. We only listen to Taylor's version.  MARY: And they're on that train. They're on that Taylor train.  KASIE: They're all bought in.  MARY: And we're going to only listen to the new stuff that's Taylor's version. That's our stuff. And I think that that circles back around to her marketing and her building that community and the positivity that she puts out there and that her fans kind of feed off of right? You know, one of the things that makes her so inspirational to me is her generosity, right? We've heard the stories of every city that she's been in with the Eras tour. She's donated 1000s and 1000s of dollars. Nobody's disclosed the amount but we know it's a lot to every food bank in the city where she's had a concert. And that, that says a lot because that has its own economic impact… we talked about the financial gain of people buying stuff and going to hotels and restaurants and stuff, but this has another economic impact on those cities.  KASIE: Yeah, I think so. It wouldn't surprise anybody who's a Taylor Swift fan to know that she's, you know, overseeing some of these decisions that are made at the concert level, right? So we don't know how many of these are Taylor Swift decisions necessarily, but it does feel like it comes from an overall vibe. So if you think of like a corporation having corporate values, what are the corporate values and does this corporation always act within their values? And in Taylor Swift, if Taylor Swift is a corporation, one of the values is generosity. And so where does that generosity manifest itself? And it is of course in charitable donations, it is in economic impact, it is in bonusing your own employees, caring for your own employees, those kinds of things. And so yeah, I don't think it would surprise anybody to know that Taylor Swift is living her values all the time.  MARY: Right. And it's a great example to other leaders and whatever industry it doesn't matter the industry because you mentioned taking care of her employees. We heard about the bonuses that she gave, not just her truck drivers, but all of her employees. So like $55 million I don't know many people that would take $55 million out of their own pocket and spread it around to people that work for them.  KASIE: Well, two it speaks to this… So as a Gen X-er are right, like I kind of hate to give it, you know, the millennial credit right? But I think it speaks to this sense in that generation that enough is as good as a feast. And so I don't need $55 million more. You know what I'm saying like, what else is that money going to do for me except just be more money, right? And so I can't take it with me like there's this kind of sense and I will give 100% the millennials the credit for that. They have a sense that enough is as good as a feast. And so when somebody has so much more than they really believe that they need right? We see that with Mr. Beast. There's a lot of these kinds of digital entrepreneurs that are recognizing, hey, I want to take care of myself and my family. But beyond that, I want to take care of all the people around me right? And that generosity, I think is generational.  MARY: That's the generosity that I wish would permeate throughout all of society.  KASIE: I think we're gonna see more of it honestly I think and like I said, I'm giving credit to the millennials. They're not all that way, but a lot of the leaders in that generation are and I think Gen Z is going to be the most generous generation we've ever seen.  MARY: I completely agree with that. My students every day… they just impress me so much and surprise me. Speaking of… one of my students is my producer. Isabella, pop in here and show everybody and say hi.  KASIE: Hi Isabella!  MARY: She's the one. And for all of our podcast listeners, she's the one that makes this podcast sound so good. So we thank her tremendously. She graduates by the way, she graduates in May and I'm going to hate to lose her but somebody out there is gonna get a really good employee, who's very creative, who's just on top of things. So.  KASIE: And here's an opportunity for somebody in your ranks that maybe gets to move into Isabella's spot.  MARY: Absolutely, absolutely. I love that you pointed that out. We're talking about the economic impact. $4.6 billion to the local economies, according to QuestionPro, is what her tour should be when all is said and done, should have kind of input into local economies.  KASIE: And remember this isn't in a vacuum, right? This is a community effort. This is all the people who are taylor Swift fans coming forward spending their money, wanting to be part of something that is bigger than themselves, wanting to give their money to the community like wanting to go out to eat, wanting to make it a thing, right? Like all this stuff, so it's not…it is Taylor Swift. It is the tour. It is of course like hey, thank you Taylor, for creating this amazing company. But the key to it is that she's providing something people want, and people are willing to part with their money in order to get that thing and I think that's really critical because she's getting some heat from certain elements of like, how expensive the tickets are and like how much it costs and you mentioned before, because I want to maybe this segues into our conversation about the movie, about people not being able to afford to go and she gets some heat for that. There are people who don't, maybe they don't recognize the experience that is the Taylor Swift Eras tour, so they don't feel like you know, this is just not worth it. Nobody should charge that much. Blah. Blah, blah. Market economics tell us that people will pay the value that they believe it's worth right? And so they're willing to pay this money. That's them being willing to…don't feel sorry for these ticket buyers, right? They're willing to do that right?  MARY: They're choosing.  KASIE: Exactly it's a choice. She didn't make anybody spend that money on those tickets. And then she put the movie out. And the movie tickets which I love. First of all, the tickets are $19.89 So this is one of those Easter eggs, right? She charged 1989 for her tickets. When the tickets went on tour, we found out first of all, we thought it was only gonna be one night. So as soon as we found out they were going on tour we did not get to see the Eras tour. We fell in the group of people that was like we don't have two grand to go see this right? Not that I would in any way not spend that money if I did. I would 100% spend that money if I had it but anyway, all that to say when the movie was coming out… we're huge movie people. So Holly and I were super excited. We jump on the app. We're gonna buy the tickets. And when we see it, I just turned it to her like, it's $19.89 and we lost it, like, cackling that she had priced them at 1989. Like, I mean, come on. Come on Tay.  MARY: Yeah, but it's another one… It's genius exactly, because it created that feeling in you guys that you are now even more excited because you're like this is right on right on what we expect from her. KASIE: Oh, it's on brand, like it's fully on brand and it makes you feel like because you get it when you see it's 1989 you're like, oh, I get it. Good job, Taytay, right? Like and then you feel like you're part of this squad because you know this thing that other people don't know. I think the same when we showed up to the actual movie theaters… we're walking in, and everybody's got their bracelets on. People are singing along like nobody's telling you to shhh we're watching a movie like it's not.. We didn't have one of the big dancy theater ones. I think if we had gone to a later show, maybe but we went to an earlier show. There were some small kids like we kind of… people didn't want to stand up in front of people and not let them be able to see so we just all sat and watched but, man we sang. I mean we definitely sang.  MARY: And you're not alone. Everybody around the country. So the movie worldwide has grossed over $123 million.I mean, it's just, these numbers are just mind boggling, right? It's reached $90 million within like the first week I think..it's crazy, right? KASIE: Can I tell you where I think this is the only mistake I think Taylor Swift may have made? MARY: Oh yeah. Let's talk about that.  KASIE: Are you ready? MARY: Because we learn from our mistakes, right? KASIE: So the Eras tour movie grosses $129 million dollars,can you imagine if they're had been six versions of that movie?  MARY: Oh good lord. Yeah.  KASIE: If she had issued… you never know which version you're gonna get. Remember when clue came out? And there were three things to clue. Yeah. So you went to see it three times because you weren't sure which ending they were going to show in that theater is a thing that needs to be done more often. And with the era's tour movie, she had a chance to do it, especially because there were shows that she recorded where she had played more songs. Like I said, we only got the one song from our favorite album. There were shows where she played more songs from that. So why not get film from a bunch of different shows and piece together three or four or six, but like say you get three, three versions of the error story. And you don't know so you show up like not sure is this going to be the Argentina one? Is this going to be the Indianapolis one? Is it…I don't know which one I'm watching. I'm just watching one of the three Eras movies that may be showing today. Right? Come on, we'd be back. We've got 1989 every time.  MARY: Right. Dr. Kasie Whitener. That is why I have you on this show. Because you bring up things like that. I love it. I love it. I love it.  KASIE: It's just a missed opportunity. Just a missed opportunity. It's not a criticism. It's just an opportunity. MARY: Absolutely. And who knows, maybe she's gonna listen to this podcast and check out that missed opportunity. And if not, maybe somebody else will.  KASIE: I think we get the world tour. I think she's going to do another movie. It's going to be whatever she does overseas.  MARY: I think you're probably right about that. If I had to guess as a matter of fact, I also heard that she is also extending some dates after she comes back to the States again. So we'll see if that pans out. I don't know for sure if that's true or not.  MARY: But now we're coming to my favorite topic of the podcast. And that is the love, the romance… KASIE: We're here for it MARY: You're right. We're all sitting here. I swear to God after the Buenos Aires video came out and of her changing the lyrics, of her running up to Travis at the end. Literally, I'm watching it from every angle that I could find on everywhere and I'm not alone because there's a gazillion Tik Tokers who are talking about the same thing. And we are all on even as old women…all of us Gen X-ers are loving this.  KASIE: Yes right here for it.  MARY: We're here for it. And I know the reason I'm here for it is because I love love. I've have always been romantic. But we're here for it and that is turning into some economic impact with the NFL. And with anything related to Travis and Jason Kelce, you know, I mean, right after she showed up at the Chiefs game, their podcast went to number one.  KASIE: Yep. MARY:  The sales of his Travis Kelce, his jersey have gone up 400% You know, their song that they just released the brothers Christmas song… number one on iTunes charts even beating Taylor, right, in some places. So that economic impact is spreading beyond just the world of Swifties and spreading to the NFL, and they're eating it up.  KASIE: So there's two possibilities here right there's the cynical side, which is like this is a publicity stunt. The Kelce brothers organized this… their podcast was launching, their documentaries launching, blah blah blah publicity stunt, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, okay. Fine. If that's the case, there's a publicity stunt. I'm here for it.  MARY: Me too.  KASIE: I'm all in, it's fine. It doesn't have to be real. Like I'm into to read the story. Live the story. Love the story. I'm fine with it. It doesn't have to be real. So that's fine. So many haters that are out there. They're like oh, they're just doing it for, you know, for record sales. Okay. Oh, they're just doing it to get more. Okay. I have no problem with it.  MARY: Whatever. Yeah. Me either. I don't think that's true. KASIE: By all means, okay. So there's that one side. And again, that's fine. And then the other side is this could be real. Right? And I think that this could be real side is really compelling for a number of reasons of course because through her lyrics, through her songs,  all the sad stories. I just watched her go through all this right and and of course, she gets torn down to the media for two reasons, one for serial dating and then the flip of it is for writing songs about being a serial dater, right. And then it seems like what we're seeing, and again, it could be a publicity stunt. But it seems like what we're seeing is somebody who has a career in his own right has plenty of competence in his own right, feels perfectly good about himself as a human being in his own right, and is glad to share a spotlight with her and it's almost in awe of her and how wonderful she is and that worship that all of us feel for her… when we see him demonstrate it to is gratifying because we think she deserves it. And we think she deserves somebody who believes she deserves it and is not ashamed or unwilling to give it. MARY: Right exactly. And who's confident… I think you've hit on it right there… who's confident enough to stand he's, granted I'm not taking anything from Travis, but stand in her shadow a bit and really support her right because she's now a billionaire and not because she's a billionaire. But because she's so creative because she's so talented. She's gotten to that financial place because of her talents. And because of her work ethic, right?  KASIE: Oh the work ethic, easy.  MARY: The work ethic is crazy, right? And so which we also aspire to but I don't I don't know about that.  KASIE: She's a once in a lifetime talent. And I'm perfectly fine with that.  MARY: Exactly. I want to be Taylor Swift. But the great thing is we can learn from it. Right? And all the NFL is learning from it right now. Right?  KASIE: I gotta say there's two pieces of that that I think are really brilliant. I know your classes look at digital media… look at digital governorship too and the first one was with the New Heights podcast, watching Travis Kelce watch the video of the couple that had been the Travis Taylor couple. I don't know if you saw this right. MARY: Yes I did.  KASIE: So first of all, to back up just a little bit… MARY: It was Jax and her… putting him on the map… KASIE: But yeah, so there's a big trend on the internet of women talking about how Taylor Swift put Travis Kelce on the map people you know I don't even watch the NFL but I'll watch it for Taylor Swift like it became this like running joke around women who know better, but are intentionally trapping their husbands into like, you know, oh, I don't even know who this person is. Like, I mean, she made him famous. And these men just like losing their minds, because they're angry. She's not even a thing. It doesn't even matter. Okay, so that piece of it was really funny when the NFL changed their twitter handle to Taylor's version, right and so then you get the mash up of her saying. So now when you see it says Taylor's version it's because I own it. And then they show the NFL thing. This is Taylor's version. Taylor owns the NFL, like, like all of this was really great publicity for the NFL. Really great publicity for Taylor Swift and for Travis Kelce. And I think again, even if it is a publicity stunt, I'm here for it because it was clever. It was new, it felt fresh and it felt real and authentic. And then the other part was, of course, like I said with the Halloween costume. Jax is talking about her putting him on the map. And he just falls for it, the boyfriend supposedly falls for it And he's like. Oh, come on. He actually puts his face on the map. And then Travis is watching and he goes oh, I get it. She put me on the map. That's pretty funny. Like he's in on a joke. It's okay with him. He's not feeling ashamed, but he's not wanting to hide it and pull it off. He's not throwing a temper tantrum about it. And that just shows this like grown up man behaving like a grown-up man. And I think I want to be here for that too. I want to see more of that on the internet.  MARY: We could have a whole nother podcast about just the romance and how Travis is a grown up man and the right person or the right type of person for her. They have the same energy. I don't want to go down this rabbit hole but they have the same energy. He matches her energy. If you saw the video of him at the Buenos Aires concert on his off week, he was cheering her on just like she was cheering him on at the game she went to right.  KASIEL Yeah, well you see videos of him when she's not even around. Like Travis just being Travis is that way. There's a kind of like goof factor to it. There's a kind of so much confidence and who they are and how they are. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. This is good. And again, this is a love story. We're all here for it. We want the best thing for both of them either, of course like nobody's over here going. If they break up, we're gonna be pissed at them. It's not like that, everyone's like along for the ride. We're just glad to see two people who we all believe deserve happily ever after maybe maybe seeking one.  MARY: Yeah, now we can't ignore the... I don't want to go down this rabbit hole but we can't ignore the people who are the naysayers and I just ignore… I mean, we can't ignore them. That's the way I should have said that. We can't ignore them and I do ignore them. Because like you said, the whole marketing, everything is brilliant about it. And just to talk a little bit to remind some of our viewers or listeners about the impact it's had on the NFL, not just the ticket jersey. The Jersey sales but ticket sales to actual games have gone up. Where people, the Chiefs games in particular, or even the Eagles games where people thought Taylor might be at the Eagles game. A few weeks ago those ticket sales went up and of course ESPN and the viewing viewership on TV went up as well, which of course, increases financial gains there for ESPN and NFL both. Right? Yeah.  KASIE: So it's just a good thing all around. And I think for the haters that are out there, either sick of it or they don't know anything about it or they don't care about it. They don't want to talk about it, all of that, you know, it goes back to what Taylor said about if somebody is gonna make you feel bad about the thing that gets you excited, then that's just the worst kind of person. Like, why would you make people feel bad for the thing that gets them excited? It makes them happy, like, just let them be happy. You know, like, I just, yeah, just… MARY: That's why all of us are drawn to her because of that mentality. Right? And, and we know that she's been through it. And to come out and to see the happiness on her face right now. Just the joy and the… she's at peace right now. Right? She's loving everything that she's doing. And then when she's with Travis it's just great. I could just talk about it forever.  KASIE: But I'm here for it. MARY: I know we've gone down a rabbit hole a little bit. For our listeners and our viewers. Hopefully you've come along right along with us. But we also have given some golden nuggets here in this podcast, some Easter eggs if you will, not as clever as Taylor has done them. But things that you can take with you. Take away. Always look, I tell my students all the time, look for the blueprint in your story. Look for the blueprint that people can take with them into their lives. And we try to do that with this podcast every episode that we have, and talking to people about their stories and having conversations like we are with Dr. Kasie Whitener here. And so there are things that you can take and apply to your business or figure out how to apply to your business or your entrepreneurial venture whatever wherever and whatever stage you're in, right? KASIE: I think the most useful thing is, it's a climb. I mean, it's a climb. Taylor Swift didn't wake up at 17. And have an impact of billions of dollars, you know, on global markets. That's not how things worked out, but she's been working. She had a vision for what she wanted to do, for how she wanted her career to go. When she left country music, she wanted to sing her own songs. That was a huge risk. I remember being in a conversation with my brother, uh, when she left when she decided to walk away from her label and country music because she wanted to sing her own songs and he was like she's gonna fail and I was like, I don't know, I wouldn't bet against her. I'll be honest with you. I wouldn't bet against Taylor Swift. And here she is, you know, having rewritten the rules in her own industry to fit things the way she wants it to work. And she and she gets knocked down. She just gets back up again. I mean, things that should… if you think of the Kanye…I mean, it's humiliation, basically, public and professional humiliation. And she just came right back. Right? And so, and I know that's not.. I say that she came right back making it sound like it's easy.  MARY: It took two years for her to… KASIE: And the way she wrote about it and the way she talked about it. The way she processed it and brought us all along for that journey too because who she is as a songwriter. You know when we see all of that I think that's why we want such good things for her now. If you know her through her music that well then you go okay, we're at the climax of the story now, right, where all the things are supposed to be working out the way they're supposed to work out. And I want to see the beautiful things happening for her.  MARY: So yeah, oh, I love that. I do want to circle back around to the idea of bringing people along with you. Because one of the two things she's done recently that I think we all should point out is that she's used the status that she has to help. I mean, obviously, we talked about philanthropic ventures and things like that, but in her contract with Universal and in her contract, she made them agree to give more artists more percentage of their streaming rights, you know that you get paid so much for every time you stream, it''s pennies on the dollar, right, right. But in that negotiation process, she got Universal to give all of their clients, all of their musicians, all of their bands, singers, everybody, more percentage from their streaming rights. That's huge. Because they knew what they would lose.  KASIE: Yeah, exactly. It's industry leadership but saying I have a position of power and I'm gonna use it to lead the industry and I think that's a very mature place for her to be. It was mature for her to walk away from country music when she was however old, you know, in her 20s. But this is a really mature thing for her to do this late in her career, even to say I'm an industry leader, I have industry power, and I'm going to use that power to improve the lives of all of my fellow workers.I mean, you don't need a union when you've got somebody in a powerful position that willing to work for you. Right?  MARY: And willing to work for you is the key thing there. And then the same thing with the Eras tour and the movie, right? She bypassed the studios to get it out to the theaters because the studios wanted to take a higher percentage than she knew that she would be able to get if she just dealt directly with theaters. I KASIE: I love how aware we are of the inner workings of Hollywood and movie theaters now, because of Taylor Swift. Like I love the visibility that we now all have to the system and where everybody takes their cut, because Taylor Swift was very clear about I'm doing it this way and here's why. And I think that if you're in an industry where somebody that powerful is calling you out for doing the wrong thing, or for behaving in the wrong way, you got to take a look at yourself and be like, Okay, our business model just got called out for being shady and we need to figure out a way to… and you just have to compete. I think that's the biggest part is like we see industries where competition has been driven out by bad practices, you know, just just bad practices. And when you have somebody like Taylor Swift come in and say we're just not going to do things that way. You have to compete. And I think sometimes companies get a little bit slack, a little bit lazy, they start taking things for granted, and they get caught blindsided and they're bad about it, and they'll say terrible things about it. But at the end of the day, if you're not competing, you're not winning in your market. You know, you got nobody to blame but yourself.   MARY: I think we could drop the mic on that one. Because that's true, right? Yeah. Dr. Kasie Whitener and my friend, thank you so much for joining me. This has been a great conversation. We could talk about this for hours, but she has to go pick up her little Swiftie, her daughter. Kasie, thanks so much.   KASIE: Thank you so much for having me, Mary. And anytime you want to talk entrepreneurship, I'm your gal. And if you add Taylor Swift, I'm here for it, I'm absolutely here for it.   MARY: We love it. Absolutely. Thank you so much.   MARY: All right, Class E Podcast listeners, that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember that  this is the podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. This is produced by our student producer Isabella Martinez, who you got to see in this podcast episode. By the way, remember that you can find us wherever you listen to your podcast, and on YouTube as well. So please subscribe, hit those subscribe buttons wherever is most convenient for you. But until next time, everybody take a page out of Taylor's book and dream big.      

Only 2% of children who have a mother incarcerated will graduate from college, and this needs to change. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we sat down with Jennifer Jones, the founder and executive director of the non-profit organization, Beauty Marks for Girls, which aims to disrupt this incarceration statistic with its devoted mentorship program. Jones shares her personal story and emphasizes the power of empathy and perseverance along with the importance of taking care of yourself.   Guest website: https://beautymarks4girls.com/ Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   Transcript of the Show MARY: Hi, everyone, welcome to the Class E Podcast. I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. This is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communications Studies Department here at Furman University. This week I've been so excited all this week for this guest because you are going to be excited after you hear this conversation. You will want to.. don't walk, you will want to run to an event where she is listed as the speaker and after we have this conversation, you're gonna know exactly why I said that. Jennifer Jones, welcome to the show.  JENNIFER: Thank you Mary for having me. I'm excited.  MARY: Yeah. I'm excited for you to be here because Jennifer did a speech at one of the women's events that I went to. What was it last spring or something like that? Yeah. And I was just sitting in the audience and I was…I probably shouldn't admit this, but I was just crying. Because I was so touched and so inspired by her story. So I wanted to have her on to, you know, do the same for you guys. Right? So Jennifer, let's talk a little bit about your story. You've started a nonprofit, we're gonna get to that. But you had a lot, of course, leading up to that and were really motivated to start it in the first place. Can you tell us a little bit about your personal story?  JENNIFER: So Beauty Marks for Girls…It did derive from a lived experience. We mentor girls whose mothers are incarcerated in South Carolina. And so I wanted to make sure that no young lady has to experience the pain of living with an incarcerated mother by herself. I am the daughter of a formerly incarcerated mother, who really has turned my pain into my power.  MARY: Yeah. I love that.  JENNIFER: And I plan to do the same for the young ladies throughout our program. So parental incarceration, I like to say that it hurts, but still in those broken areas, you can find that is where your power lies. Normally I'm asked about Beauty Marks, where do we get that name from? And that's what it means… Every scar tells a story. And those stories not only deserve, Mary, to be told, but they deserve to be heard.  MARY: Oh absolutely. And telling and hearing are two different things.  JENNIFER: Absolutely.  MARY: So you overcame some of the hardships that you experienced and you graduated from Columbia with a Fine Arts degree.  JENNIFER: That's right. Columbia College.  MARY: Yeah, yeah. So tell us how you kind of have parlayed that into Beauty Marks for Girls.  JENNIFER: I think it's beautiful that it just, it matched perfectly for me because when I entered into college, arts was something that I wanted to focus on and what it did for me, the arts, was it allowed me to have this blank canvas, right? So Jennifer you can create whatever it is, no matter what you're going through, this is your canvas. So it was an outlet for me. I like to say that education saved my life, because it allowed me to use my pain as a way… as an outlet to grow not just personally but also from an impactful way throughout the state. So yeah.  MARY: I love the idea of the blank canvas really being a symbol for what these girls are working with in your organization because their lives are blank canvases right now and they may not realize it, right? But you guys help them with that.  JENNIFER: That's it. That's the beauty behind it is we're not telling them what to paint, but we're telling them here, here's the tools. No matter what you're going through, you can create something beautiful. It's the mastery for them using the paint brushes and the colors that they are given. And parental incarceration, like I said, is something we don't talk a lot about Mary. But what I have found is that when you create those spaces for these young ladies, they grow… they have the sense of belonging, their self esteem is built and they know that they are not defined or withdrawn from having a successful life. But we're here to help them along the course.  MARY: Yeah, and a lot of times they don't see that they can have a successful life. Because what they see is the trouble that their parents have gotten into or their mother has gotten into, and especially for girls, especially at some of these, you know middle school ages and even elementary school even earlier than that, they are super impressionable, obviously, and they need that special connection between their mom and if they're not allowed to have it, that's a big piece of their development that's missing.  JENNIFER: Absolutely. Perfect example - that first crush, right, in middle school. Or that first breakup, which I just experienced last week with a young lady and you know, typically we run and we tell our moms and our moms are there to embrace. What happens when that mom is not there? Girls tend to internalize, you know, what it is but I'm grateful that we have developed an ecosystem where they can pick up the phone and say, “hey, Miss Jen.” Well, they don't even have to say “hey, Miss Jen.” They may start off just crying.  MARY: Right, right. And you're gonna know by the tone of their voice exactly that something's up.  JENNIFER: That's it. And I say and I pause, “let me know when you're ready.” So they have that outlet. Yeah, that's important.  MARY: I love that. So you're not only providing the outlet and the network and the space. How exactly does the program work, like you guys meet weekly, or how does that work?  JENNIFER: Yes, so we are a year round mentorship program. So that is a part of our ecosystem. Every girl is partnered with a mentor and I like to say they're the trailblazers - our mentors are because they're creating this path that they may have never been exposed to if they didn't show up. So we meet with the girls on a monthly basis, but mentors do a “hey girl hey” check in and that's a call-in every month, twice a month, which is great. And that can be anything, Mary, from “hey, let's just go and grab some ice cream”, or I found this quote and I wanted to share it with you today. So that mentor really stands in the gap as the locomotive really to our organization.  MARY: You are so creative. I love the hey girl, hey, well, that's why you were a fine arts major. Hey, girl, hey, and all the other things that you're creating for these girls. It just spurns out of your creativity and your heart and your soul I think.  JENNIFER: It really does. And again, I look back to my connection with the arts. I have to be honest and share a little bit of my testimony…I knew when my mom was incarcerated, right, there were two options for me: it was either going to be quote on quote the streets or education. And I'm so grateful that I chose education. Now when I went to college… with the administrator like “hey, what are you gonna major in?” I was like “I have no idea” because I knew in college I was going to have a roof over my head, right? And I was gonna get meals a day. And it just goes to show that your pathway, you may not understand it in the very beginning, but keep walking. So not only that, I went to a women's college, one who would have ever known that I would be leading a women's, you know, organization. I started in prison, actually was called into the prison system and I taught two years there for rehabilitation for women - how to get to the root issue of what's going on. And then again, it just, it just transpired. So your pain is usually a dictation…it's giving a little bit of a leeway of what you're built to do in the future. So don't dismiss it.  MARY: Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's great advice. Don't dismiss it and that can be applied to entrepreneurs to innovative thinkers, to anybody, young girls, young boys, anybody. I do want to talk a little bit about your volunteering at the correctional facility. What kinds of things did you learn from that experience that kind of helped you now? JENNIFER: Wow, that's a powerful, powerful question. The last thing I wanted to do was to go back into a correctional facility. But someone very dear to my heart, one of my mentors, actually my pastor, Pastor Wendell Jones, he said, “you know that you're healed in an area when you can go back to that place and you're not broken in that area.” That's when you know that you've hit a healing place. So what was mine gonna be? I had to go back to the correctional facility and that session was only supposed to be maybe like, two weeks. It turned into two years. I fell in love with vulnerability and community and that I was having an impact that was greater than me. And so that was my way to healing…was to give back and to ask mothers. That was the common denominator for moms…serving anywhere from a year to life in prison and to hear their stories and for them to say “Miss Jen, if I could turn back the hands of time or Miss Jen, if you can show up for my daughter's graduation on my behalf..” It's bigger than me. And so I was able to encourage them and heal at the same time. How divine is that?  MARY: Yeah, absolutely. As a matter of fact, you saw me do it and the camera saw maybe too I don't know, but those of you who are listening, go to YouTube and watch that part. I caught my breath when you said that… that you are healed if you can go back to the place where you were broken… JENNIFER: Absolutely. Yeah. And you do not have that animosity or your strength and that's Beauty Marks. Every scar tells a story and we don't look at those scars as shame, but they're now badges of honor where I can tell my stories to the ladies and it was relatability, like wow, this young lady has taken time out of her day and she's going through something very similar as I am but we turn pain into power those young ladies. Funny, funny stories and… real quick Mary to a birthday event. And my very first mentee at the prison at Lee's Correctional was there at the birthday event. Very first mentee in 2016.  MARY: Full circle. JENNIFER: Full circle and she hugged me. And it was one of those full circle moments for her and she just poured her heart out like “thank you. You showed up when no one else understood. You didn't pass judgment on me.” Now she is a business owner doing well. I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing. MARY: Yeah. That gave me goosebumps when you said that because I love full circle moments like that. And we never know. I truly believe this. We never know what impact we have on somebody. A lot of times we go through life and never know but you had the look, I would say, of being able to experience that and know the impact that you had on her and you know you're on the right path. JENNIFER: And sometimes you don't recognize it…in that very moment, the seeds that, you know, that you're planting and that's how seeds work. You have to organically, right, you have to allow them to grow. And yeah, it was powerful. Yeah, that was a powerful moment.  MARY: I love that. I love that. I want to talk about failure just a little bit because these girls have experienced failure, right? and they may… and failure comes with a lot of negative connotations. Right? And I know that entrepreneurs and innovators think of failure as a positive thing most of the time as this is something we're going to overcome. We're going to learn from it. How do you incorporate that and teach the girls that? JENNIFER: Yeah, great question. We have a saying that obstacles… We look at obstacles as opportunities. You know, this is an opportunity for you to grow. This is the opportunity for you to learn something or maybe just pause for a moment and say maybe how do I need to pivot this? So we look at obstacles because failure is going to come and so that encouragement I think… also surrounding yourself with people who understand and have pivoted their way out of failure. That's important as well. MARY: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And the girls can learn from that. And speaking of that, how do you find the mentors to pair up with the girls? JENNIFER: Yes, yes, great question. We typically try very hard to match our girls with whatever pursuit like career suit. Like we had a young lady who wants to be a nurse. So we made sure that we found someone in the nursing field. That can be just from networking, events, presentations, just doing a call to action, and the community's response..I can't describe it. It has blown me completely away. People see the need… people connect somewhere in the search, you know, in the story no matter if you had a parent incarcerated or not. We all… we're not immune to pain. Somebody somewhere is going through something and so to see individuals you know, executive directors say, hey, I don't have that much time, but I want to give two or three hours to mentor throughout the month. So it's been amazing. MARY: Yeah, I love that. What has been kind of..I know the whole thing has been rewarding because when you hear Jennifer talk about this, it's just, but what has been the most rewarding thing for you in this journey? Because I know the journey hasn't been easy. JENNIFER: That's a great question. Come on Mary with all the great questions today. I love it. Wow. So I set… our huge initiative is to help send a minimum of 50 girls off to college within the next seven to ten years. As I spoke of earlier, my mom was incarcerated when I was in college, and so to drop a young lady off, and to help her get settled in… the first day of her day of college, I didn't have that, right? I was by myself. And I'm gracious you know, my brother, I had the bags on my back and it was pretty much good luck. Hope this works out.  MARY: That's kind of how I was.  JENNIFER: Hey, that's my story. But, to have a group and people… we actually paid for the U haul. We drove her down there. We hugged her, we said our goodbyes. That was a pivotal moment for me and I wept. I held it together, right, that day but I got in my car and I was like wow and it made the saying come to mind, the goal is not to live forever, Jen, but it is to create something that will live past you.” And I knew that that was my purpose. That was why, in a sense, I was placed here on this earth… to mentor and to make sure that girls never have to experience what I had to do alone. MARY: And this… the lives that you are touching that is your legacy. JENNIFER: That is my legacy. That is my legacy. MARY: Speaking of legacies, you have children. Two children. Am I right in that?  JENNIFER: I do.  MARY: Yeah. So let's talk about them and how them watching you is affecting them and kind of importing to them the things that you feel are important in life. JENNIFER: That's so good. That's so good. That's my heart. Right? So when I live on the outside, I live on the inside and Harmony Rose is a part of Beauty Marks for Girls. To be honest, she actually plans events better than me, but don't tell her I said that.  MARY: She's going to know if she listens to the podcast.  JENNIFER: But she is so excited.  MARY: And how old is she?  JENNIFER: So Harmony is eight.  MARY: Eight. That's what I thought. She's still pretty young.  JENNIFER: She's pretty young and she's excited. She has a heart for philanthropy. She picks out the girls'… because we provide care baskets every single month. So she goes to Walmart with me and she says, “Okay, remember mom, Jenesis didn't like that color last time or Eden, this is what she would love.” She does play dates because our girls are as young as eight years old in our program, who are missing a mom and she understands that and so she's a beacon of love, light… the girls in our program…they hug on her, she embraces them. It's a huge family. And so for her to see mom in action, that's a part of my legacy as well. MARY: Yeah. For sure. This has not been an easy road. It's not easy to start a nonprofit. And so what are some of the roadblocks that you encountered that you had to overcome? And…one, getting people to buy into your vision of what this is and how big it could be and how important it would be, but two, the funding, which nonprofits always have kind of an issue with sometimes. JENNIFER: Absolutely. So we launched Beauty Marks for Girls in 2019 as we know the pandemic hit the following year. So I'm like hmmm, I'm supposed to start a nonprofit with no profit, how exactly does that work? MARY: And everybody's on lockdown and can't see the girls. JENNIFER: Exactly, exactly. So the great thing about that…in 2018, I started with maybe around $17 so that's my story. It was and I bootstrapped right? So I stood in front of Walmart, I started this from the ground up. I'm appreciative from starting from the ground up because now I can share with others, share with other entrepreneurs what to do, what not to do. That was my path that I had to take. The great thing is by 2023, I would say that we were a six figure nonprofit organization.  MARY: Wow, that's huge. JENNIFER: Starting from $17 to that and it was just learning… MARY: That's four years… JENNIFER: That was four years of growth and it was the community and telling the stories. For instance, our gala that we had, we didn't bring any keynote speakers very to our gala. Our girls told their stories, and they did in such an organic way. And that was the goal. I wanted the community to hear what these young ladies… what it feels like to truly walk in their shoes, having a mom incarcerated for the next 10 years, and you're only 11. What does that feel like? And so like I said, I would, I would say the financial part of it is always going to be a challenge. The funny thing, the funny challenge I like to always bring up is that a lot of the milestones that we had planned for maybe five or so years to do, we were doing it two years or three years. And while some like what's the problem with that? That's super exciting. It presents this challenge because your team now says “well, what's next?” And as the leader, you have to be vulnerable and say, “I don't know. I don't know.” And so that presented a challenge for me constantly being innovative. And just to bring up GVL Starts…that was one of my… I like to say I had kind of like writer's block or creative block because I was pushing out all of these programs. They weren't effective. And I came to that roadblock like what do we do next? And so I linked up with Brian Davis at GVL Starts and that really, I would say helped me to get my mojo back. Right and everybody was like, okay, team was like “Jen's back.” We pushed out a mental health and wellness program out at that time that is exclusively for girls who have a mother incarcerated and it is right now voted the number one among our girls… the number one program Beauty Marks for Girls has offered. MARY: Yeah, that's good. Because that's a component, right, that we all need, especially in this day and age. I was gonna circle around to Greenville Starts, but you jumped right in there. And I went through Greenville Starts within the first cohort because I have a production company but see if you found what I found… that just the community, I mean, you know, put the speakers aside and educators beside who they bring in because they bring in somebody every day and every time you go… just the community of the entrepreneurs helps because everybody's in that innovative mindset and they're all thinking outside of the box and they're… not just for themselves but for you too. So I found those conversations almost to be as beneficial or maybe more beneficial sometimes than some of the educational components that were planned for us. Not that they weren't because they certainly were, but… JENNIFER: You stated it perfectly. That was the missing link when I was going kind of through that writer's block, that was the missing link. I was not surrounding myself with other innovators…. like minded innovators who were just as wide-eyed and willing to take the risks. But when we linked hands, as sweaty as they were because we were all nervous, I found that was the best thing for me. Yeah, it was that you can't do it without community. You can't. So that changed our life. Greenville Starts. MARY: How has that helped you even, I mean, I think you were in the last year's fall cohort, is that right?  JENNIFER: Yes. MARY: Yeah, so a year almost since then. What kind of changes in addition to the mental health component that you've incorporated for the girls…what other, what other ways did that help you open your eyes to some things that maybe you needed to do or overcome some things.  JENNIFER: It was beautiful. I don't know if you know or not, but we actually walked away with the title last year.  MARY: Yes. you did.  JENNIFER: So, we, Beauty Marks for Girls, we won top pitch, $5,000. And that was our seed fund to start the mental health and wellness program. So we took that seed and took that check in and our young…all they saw was zeros, right? So they didn't know how much it was.  But it was an opportunity for me to say “hey, you can do whatever you set your mind, and you work hard to do. And that was beautiful. So it… again, it helped us to launch our mental health and wellness program which we're going into our second year and now, not only that, but the network of connections that I have made from one, that actually lended a partnership with the Department of Corrections from the cohort. So that right there, that means that we can do more in the prison systems, more families are served. And again, the backing from Furman University and so many other organizations, just has been absolutely incredible. MARY: How many girls do you have right now? JENNIFER: So we have fourteen total across five different counties. And then we have three girls who are in college full time on full ride scholarships. MARY: Oh, that's amazing.  JENNIFER: That's our goal. Our second is to again… to help send a minimum of 50 girls off to college within the next seven to ten years. And we've already sent three on full ride scholarships. MARY: You're well on the way. Well on the way. I was going to ask you, what's next for Beauty Marks for Girls? What do you have cooking in the coffers that you're thinking about rolling out? That you can share with us.  JENNIFER: Okay, you know, I'm excited. I'm so excited. I will say what's in the work right now is that we are trying to turn our mental health program into an application. So it's a platform.  MARY: Oh yes. Fabulous.  JENNIFER: So this is an app exclusively, again, for girls whose moms are incarcerated… so it can be a young lady who is in Greenville or she can be in Southern California. It's not going to matter if she's going through the hurts and pains of parental incarceration, she can log in…it's a safe haven and they can see exactly what we're doing here. So we'll have workshops there, guided meditation. So, it's an application that girls all over the nation can join in on. MARY: So they have it in their pockets at all times.  JENNIFER: Absolutely. MARY: I love that. JENNIFER: So, some of the forums will be what to do the first 24 hours that your mom is incarcerated. So that app is out there where they can log in and meet the students who we have here in South Carolina and again, build that community. MARY: I love that.  JENNIFER: I'm so excited. You know I'm excited.  MARY: Yeah, I love that next step. So your vision is to go nationwide?  JENNIFER: It is. Absolutely. And globally, ultimately. MARY: I love it. Because we have so many moms that have been incarcerated. They're leaving their kids.  JENNIFER: Yes. Absolutely. MARY: And a lot of times…say that number again. JENNIFER: I would say 2.5 right now… 2.5 children have been affected by parental incarceration. Only 2% of children who have a mother incarcerated, based on statistics, will graduate from college. So I'm a part of that 2% and my goal is to disrupt that statistic…girl by girl day by day. MARY: Yeah, yeah. I love it. Disrupt that statistic. You have to probably have kind of a, well I know you have several like visions and things that motivate you or whatever, but do you have an entrepreneurial kind of philosophy that you would share with other entrepreneurs that maybe they're like, oh, that's okay, I get something now.  JENNIFER: Yeah. I would say take care of yourself. From a personal…as much as we want and need your product or innovation, we need you well, so that would be number one because that creativity will flow when you're self care. I would say that that definitely is number one and mental health. The second thing I would probably state to encourage other entrepreneurs is it's okay to pivot. It's okay. It's okay to pivot as I was vulnerable with my team, I didn't know what to do. Okay? At that point, you have to be vulnerable. As you know, that's my stance… vulnerability is the pathway to creativity and connection.  MARY: Absolutely. I completely agree.  JENNIFER: That's it. That's it and don't… definitely don't give up. Don't give up. There were so many days that I was like, this is not working. I don't have the money. Going from $17… You don't really know what you're doing at the beginning. But the resiliency that's going to be pushed out of you will live past you, but you do have to see it to the end. Discipline right? Discipline is freedom. You have to be disciplined as an entrepreneur. And I like to also say because I come from corporate America, the same type of motivation and hard work and discipline that you put within someone else's company, it needs to be to a second level for your own.  MARY: Oh, yes, absolutely. JENNIFER: It needs to be to a second level and continue to elevate and to amplify your voice and take up space. Yeah, don't be afraid to do that  MARY: I love that. I love that. If you could give one piece of advice to the girls, what piece of advice would you give them? Because everything is so individual… JENNIFER: It is. And our program is really tailored to what the young ladies need. If I could give some advice, I would say to learn the power of empathy and forgiveness. It came to a point that before I could go to the next level, I had to have that tough conversation with my mom, right? So I had to forgive and I had to empathize with her. Now my mom is celebrating over 10 years of sobriety and she's a part of Beauty Marks for Girls. We actually named our scholarship after my mom. So I would say lead with empathy and the power within that is to learn to forgive and live to the best of your ability and not hold grudges. Live out loud. Don't be afraid to soar. Yeah. MARY: Yeah, I think that's great advice for anybody, not just the girls, but everybody listening. Right? Everybody listening. MARY: What do you need? JENNIFER: So right now, my goal is to continue to build relationships. So… mentors…we are in need of mentors, mental health ambassadors. You don't have to have a clinical or a form of degree to help a young lady who just needs a shoulder to cry on. We need a lot of hands who need to show up at events, our mental health as I spoke to our app that we're getting ready, you know, just maybe some technical assistance and where to start. That's something that we are definitely looking into. Board of directors, we're always looking to engage with board of directors to help with the health and, you know, the future of Beauty Marks for Girls. So I would say that's number one. Always financial support is going to be something.. I say that a nonprofit is as strong as the community that holds it up. When you see nonprofits, not here, it's usually a funding, right? I've seen great founders walk away from organizations and great work, great causes, but the funding isn't there. So to continue to have this impact that we're having in the state of South Carolina we need that support, that financial support, and it doesn't have to be always a dollar amount to it Mary. If you have a restaurant and say, hey, I want to, you know, bring your girls in to have lunch for after school. That's giving back. Everyone can do something in the philanthropic world. So yeah, so yeah, I would say that. MARY: Jennifer, I love that. How can people get in touch with you to perhaps give in those ways or become a mentor? JENNIFER: I would love to speak more with you. You can reach us at Beauty Marks, the number four, girls.com. That's B, E, A, U, T, Y, M, A, R, K, S, the number four, girls.com. We're also on social media so you can find us on Instagram. Please follow, please like so we can spread the message of what we're doing to have a greater impact. Linked in as well as Facebook. So yeah.  MARY: And you know what? Even if you can't, you know, donate right now or even if you can't, you know,  don't have the time to be a mentor, whatever the case is, you can go on social media and comment and share and bolster because that engagement is so important to spread the word right? Because social media is a huge network and in order for that network to grow, we have to engage.  JENNIFER: Very true. One of our biggest, I would say stakeholders, right now they're in Brooklyn, New York.  MARY: Yeah.  JENNIFER: So like how they found us? I'm not sure, but it was because someone you know, saw the needs, saw the cause connected us. So like you stated it's just as vital, social media. MARY: All right, Jennifer, I'm gonna give you a last word. Anything else you want to make sure that our viewers know about you or Beauty Marks For Girls or entrepreneurship or innovation? JENNIFER: Yes. First of all, thank you Mary. I want to end by saying thank you so much. This is like family to me you all, Furman University, GVL Starts. Pau, Kelly, Brian Davis, everyone I just want to say thank you for that. We are stronger together.  MARY: Absolutely.  JENNIFER: And so I would say last words is don't be afraid to live out loud. Don't be afraid to live out loud. And that your the hardest parts of your testimony could be the roadmap and the blueprint to save another life. So yeah, don't forget that… the power within you.  MARY:  Yeah, yeah, that just made me go whew. I love it. See this is why you should go listen to her speak. Like I said…don't walk, run to sign up for whatever, wherever you're speaking.  JENNIFER: We go deep. We go deep. You will not walk out the same. You will not walk out the same.  MARY: That is so true.  JENNIFER: Yep.  MARY: Jennifer, thank you so much.  JENNIFER: Pleasure.  MARY: I can't wait until I see you again. That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember, if you or someone you know has an idea for a nonprofit or a business venture, then Greenville Starts is here to help you do that. So just Google Greenville Starts Furman and it should be the very first thing that pops up on your Google search and get yourself into one of those cohorts that are coming up. But it makes a huge difference as Jennifer has shared with us, other guests have shared with us. So make sure you go do that. This is the podcast that is brought to you through the partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is a true example of the Furman Advantage because we are produced by student producer, Isabella Martinez. And so she creates these rundowns for us and she creates these questions and she researches the guests and then she edits these things together. So please give her some kudos if you see her interacting online because she does a heck of a job. The other thing I want to remind everybody is that you can now watch us on YouTube as well. So of course we're wherever you get your podcasts and we're on YouTube, but hit that subscribe button so that you are notified whenever we have a new episode out which is about every other week. All right. But that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host Mary Sturgilll. Until next time everybody, dream big.          

The boys talk the loss with Houston, look forward to OK State, and the text line was on fire! --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/section304/support

Finding that secret sauce can lead to success, but it's not always easy to find. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked with Chris Sexton, founder of the barbecue catering company, Sexton's Smoke-N-Grill. From learning countless lessons in the Greenville Starts program to dealing with personal health concerns, Sexton discusses the future of his company, how he has become more appreciative of his skills, and the importance of keeping priorities straight as an entrepreneur. Guest: Chris Sexton Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sextonsmokingrill Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   TRANSCRIPT:  MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. You know, this is the podcast that is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University.  Today's episode is part of the everyday entrepreneur series in which we talk to entrepreneurs who have graduated from our GVL Starts program. And the reason that we're doing that is we want you to hear their stories and be inspired by them wherever they are in the process of their venture. So today we have a very special guest, Chris Sexton, who is the owner of Sexton Smoke-N-Grill, and a new venture that he's calling Mr. Sauce It Up. Chris, welcome to the show.  CHRIS: Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.  MARY: Chris, I'm so happy that you were able to join us today because one - I'm gonna look right into the camera for the YouTube people - Chris' food is amazing. Now when I was in, you know, I was a broadcaster for 20 years, and when I was in Texas, the broadcasters and you know different people in the community, they call us celebrities or whatever, but we had to judge barbecue competitions. So I've judged many a barbecue competition in my life. And Chris' is by far the best of any that I have done and it all boils down to the sauce, which I imagine is where the Mr. Sauce It Up came from.  CHRIS: That is exactly where Mr. Sauce came from. I've created a new sauce using fruit, alcohol, and just a wide imagination to come up with different sauces. We've got about 10 to 15 sauces that we do.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: All incorporating fruits and alcohol like I said. Like you can take Hennessy bourbon… MARY: Don't give your whole secret away.  CHRIS: No, everything's not coming, but we've got great stuff coming.  MARY: We don't want people to copy it. And you will want to once you taste this, you'll want to try to redo this at home. Tell us about how you got started with this. Because you're in finance.  CHRIS: I'm in finance. So to be honest with you, from working in finance, I've always had a passion for cooking. I started cooking when I was like 14 years old working at a little restaurant in Greer with legendary Peggy Davis. She owns Peggy's Diner in Greer. Started working with her, handing out trays… and I kind of fell in love with that whole environment of cooking, creating. Did that all the way through high school… worked at McDonald's. But the sauce and the cooking came from truly talking on the phone with a guy from Mississippi on the phone about a car deal.  MARY: Oh, wow. CHRIS:  And he asked me what I was doing for Thanksgiving. I told him I was going to try fried turkey. He said you need to smoke it.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And that day, I smoked a duck, a turkey and a…a duck, a turkey, and a Boston butt.  MARY: Wow.  CHRIS: And they all came out great.  MARY: Yeah. On your first time. CHRIS: On my first time, it came out great. Not perfect, but great. MARY: Right.   CHRIS: But it was addictive. It was like it was something that…it's what I needed at that point in time to slow me down and give me some perspective. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And from there it's just kind of bloomed and grown from there.  MARY: Yeah. What inspired you? Was it just the conversation with him or have you always… I mean, you've kind of always been a little a foodie. CHRIS: A foodie.  MARY: I mean, I consider you a foodie.  CHRIS: So what really inspired me is the process.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I fell in love with it. And I'm a person that loves serving people. So getting to feed people, seeing smiles on their face, people honestly patting your back saying this is the best barbecue I've ever had.  MARY: And there are some smiles when they eat your stuff.  CHRIS: And it's encouraging. So the sauce idea actually came… I made a dish, not gonna say what dish it is, and my mom tried it and when she got done, she says “man, this would be good on some chicken wings.” MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And so me being who I am, it took me like three years… I sat there and thought about it and one day while I was at work, all my great ideas come on the clock… So I was sitting there one day and I'm like bingo. I figured out how to do it, I tried it, and I kind of took it off from there.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And that's… the biggest thing about my barbecue is it's different. MARY: Yeah. It totally is.  CHRIS: And I refuse to do what everybody else does. And my goal with my business is to create a new space in a traditional market.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: When you go to restaurants and you go places… that's the other thing that inspired me…I'm tired of eating vinegar based, tomato based, mustard based barbecue sauces. You know, I want something different and so that's what we've done. MARY: So you have…how many sauces did you say now?   CHRIS: Got around 10 or 15 sauces. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: The newest…the newest sauce that I'm working on would be a Carolina white sauce. Carolina is known for that fruit flavor for peaches and things of that nature.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So imagine taking your traditional yum yum sauce mixed in with a little bit of fruit.  MARY: Oh yeah.  CHRIS: And we're working on that and actually combining the smoked brisket and pulled pork with fried rice with that yum yum sauce.  MARY: Oh my gosh. My mouth is watering.   CHRIS: So, yeah. Look for us on Tik Tok soon. MARY: Yeah, there you go. When we were in the… we were in Greenville Starts cohort together, and the first time I tasted Chris's sauce, I was like, “Chris, you need to call this the best damn sauce ever.”  CHRIS: That is actually the slogan. “The best damn sauce you've ever had.”  MARY: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. CHRIS: I tell people… I'm trying to be humble, but when you have something that's different, you have to let people know.  MARY: Exactly.  CHRIS: And this is when you taste it, it just… it kind of shocks you because you're not… you're thinking barbecue sauce.  MARY: Totally.  CHRIS: But it kind of just catches you… you're like what is this?  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And it just kind of sucks you in.  MARY:  Well, and I think you just said it correct. You're taking a space that is so kind of entrenched in kind of the flavors that are there. And you're creating something new with the idea of barbecue. And I love that. Can you talk us through the process of creating this business because I guess you started with the smoking first and then the sauces and then where are you… how, you know…do you have a website? Do you have a restaurant? How are you coming together?   CHRIS: What we're doing now is… So this is how I initially started out. I was at my desk at Ford one day having a conversation with someone that asked me about catering.  MARY:Yeah.  CHRIS: So I hopped online, in between calls, looking at what I had to do to get started so I went online, I got my EIN…and kind of got in touch with state and got everything going. MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: That was in 2016. So for the last three years off and on, I've done a lot of catering. A lot of on site. My biggest thing is on site grilling. MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I put on quite a show when I grill.  MARY: I mean you can tell with his personality. You're the entertainment and the food.  CHRIS: So yeah, if you're looking for an entertainer and a grill master, I'm your guy. So we… that's my big thing is I travel, I take my grill, I like to set up shop.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And I also work with… I've been working… I had been working before I took my current job with the church during the Wednesday night Bible studies. I'm big on… like I said my dad is a Baptist preacher.  MARY: Right. CHRIS: So we grew up in the country and all I know is fellowship and eating. I've probably eaten in every county in the state.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: Every, every type of food you can have, but those experiences is what inspired me. But long story short, the business idea and the model came from just three years of having to stop and go because working back and forth, and now learning how to balance time, family, and everything. The Mr. Sauce It Up will give me the opportunity to kind of work and service people and enjoy it and also make my first big shine through Mr. Sauce It Up.  MARY: Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about… because entrepreneurial, you know, ventures are, it's a journey, right? And I know we all have setbacks, and I know that you've had some setbacks, including a health setback for a while that kind of made everything go on pause. So how are you doing now? And let's talk about the setbacks and how you overcame them.  CHRIS: Oh, wow. So it's crazy the night that we had our finale. Our, you know, our big pitch.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I found out I had a nodule on my thyroid that they had to go in and remove. They thought it was small, but it ended up being like the size of a baseball. MARY: Wow. CHRIS: So it sat on my chest and it kind of impacted me. Dealing with things like that… it impacts…your thyroid is your gas and keeps you going. MARY: Yeah, yeah.  CHRIS: So for like the last three years, I've ran on nothing but adrenaline and you didn't know it. So it's taken me a little… little bit of time to adjust to being normal and not having that excess energy and just you know being actually knowing what it feels like to be tired and having to take a nap. MARY: Right. CHRIS: So for the last six, you know, part of that I ran on you know pretty much adrenaline because the thyroid and I were back balanced. Kind of and it… but it gave me an opportunity to really sit back and refocus and re-  kind of gave me a bigger hunger for what I want to do. I've looked at food trucks, and things like that, but a crazy and a funny fact about me is I've had 22 wrecks in my lifetime.  MARY: 22 wrecks? CHRIS: 22 automobile accidents.  MARY: Oh my goodness, Chris. CHRIS: So me driving a food truck probably nobody around here wants.  MARY: They don't mix.  CHRIS: That's not a good mix so I'm in the process of trying to find a building either…. I would prefer Greenville, but the Spartanburg area is also something I'm open to… to certainly barbecue out of. But until then, I'm gonna let myself and also cakes and sweet potato pies…  MARY: Yeah. Oh my god. Sweet potato pies.  CHRIS: …kind of feed my business and my picture while I kind of work my nine to five and do your day in and day out thing.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: The struggle. You know, being an entrepreneur… it takes a… you got to have a little bit of crazy in you to be an entrepreneur. But the biggest thing you have to have to be an entrepreneur is being resilient.  MARY: Yes. CHRIS: You never know what obstacles are gonna come your way. I never expected and never thought I was sick MARY: Right. You had no idea.  CHRIS: I had no idea. You know, and even through it, you got to, you know, one of the mottos I live off of is fake it till you make it.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: You got to go into every day, no matter what's going on, with a smile on your face, press through. And you kind of put it behind you and live in that moment because you never know life can be taken from you at any given moment. So you got to enjoy it no matter what's going on. And that's what's kind of helped me evolve and get to the point that I'm at now. And for me, I've learned you know, when things are going… when things are going at their best is when things…your biggest hurdles are going to come. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: For me, I spent all last year partnering with people and creating a lot of partnerships I kind of had to give up. So to kind of reinvent myself and roll back out and rebrand as Mr. Sauce It Up, it's going to be really exciting and I think it's the right way and path to go. The biggest thing I can tell other entrepreneurs is don't be stubborn.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: For a whole course, through Greenville Starts, everybody told me, “it's the sauce, it's the sauce, it's the sauce.”  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: And I love cooking. I love grilling.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And a couple of weeks ago… I'd say a couple of months ago, it finally dawned on me “Hey, you've got a product that nobody else can do.” MARY: Right. CHRIS: This is your…this is your headline and this is your angle. I'll still grill and barbecue and do barbecue and whatnot. But…I have a gift that I gotta give the world.   MARY: Right. That's your foot in the door -  think the barbecue, but the sauce is so scalable. I mean it gives me goosebumps just thinking about where you could go and seeing this on grocery store shelves. I mean it really does. CHRIS: That's my ultimate goal. My ultimate goal is to… MARY: I mean I literally just got goosebumps.  CHRIS: We've got here in Greenville…we've got we've got the Duke's manufacturing. I want to have something similar to that here just pumping out sauce so hopefully when you're getting you know your Chick fil A… go to McDonald's get a sauce packet, and you'll see my pretty face on it. MARY: I love it. I love it. And you said some really good things about there in that comment about being resilient and not being stubborn. And I think being willing to go with the flow because I know you were in talks about a space right when you got sick. And so every… I mean literally everything went on hold.  CHRIS: So with the space…this is another thing that when in the restaurant business, it's a risky business… MARY: It is.  CHRIS: For me, the biggest thing is finding people that want to invest and that will roll the dice on a restaurant. MARY: And that's true for all restaurant owners.  CHRIS: That's been the biggest challenge, but the buildings I looked at have been highly competitive.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I looked at a property in Duncan… was looking at property in Duncan and somebody came in at the last minute and outbid me by like 30 grand.  MARY: Right. Wow.  CHRIS: And being in finance and being the underwriter you… the risk… I'm very careful if that's the risk I take and I evaluate it making sure I'm making solid decisions.  MARY: And you understand that risk.  CHRIS: Yeah, because being in business for yourself, is a risk alone. MARY: Absolutely. CHRIS: You don't want your business upside down and trying to make back money that you may not be able to get back. That's not a wise move so we kind of backed off a bit. And it's been a blessing because like I said had I got into it then, gotten sick, we would have been in a worse situation. So thankfully, we got into a position where we're able to press pause and my true belief is that when my opportunity and my time is there, it's gonna happen but until then we're just gonna keep doing what we have to do.  MARY: One hundred percent. One hundred percent. So what's been the most rewarding thing about starting this venture for you? CHRIS: Networking and meeting new people.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And to be honest with you, the other thing people don't know about me is I'm kind of shy.  MARY: I don't believe that for a minute. Because the first night we were in Greenville Starts together, I mean, we clicked, obviously but…but yeah, no. But you, probably like me, I have to overcome it when I'm with people. Once I get there, I'm fine.  CHRIS: So I guess you can say my shyness comes out different. When I get nervous and get shy, it's like lights on, like camera on, game on, let's go. So you never really know it. So I embrace it. And being able to… this has taught me how to fight through that and how it really… I guess having a good time meeting new people and the biggest thing I think I'd say is just learn. Being an entrepreneur has taught me so much and it has stretched my limits. And so when I was younger, I was a hothead. MARY: I believe that.  CHRIS: Something happened… something happened and I'm, you know, fired up. MARY:  Right. CHRIS: So for instance, a couple of weeks ago, my first time back out and I go to leave and my grill catches a flat tire.  MARY: Oh, no. Yeah.  CHRIS: And the old me would have been saying Sunday School words and throwing stuff and all upset. We just pressed pause and regrouped and it has made me grow and develop patience. And understand that some things you cannot control. If you can't control it, you just move on.  MARY: I would think that this entrepreneurial process that you're on, and that health scare, that major health scare, probably both had something to do with that kind of, okay, it does no good to get upset about this stuff, just deal with it one thing at a time. CHRIS: Well there's another factor in there also. I've got a grandson now.  MARY: Oh yes, that's true. Happy Grandfather.  CHRIS: So, being a grand dad, it kind of…I would say the moment I took my daughter to the hospital.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: Got the call. I had to take her to the hospital. That's when life changed.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: We just kind of… I don't know it's something about having a grandchild that you can give back to them.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: It kind of changes you. At the same time, it just shows your new appreciation for life. So all of that within the three month period, it really has slowed me down… made me appreciate life even more. But at the same time, it's made me a fighter. It's really made me a fighter and made me...  MARY: Yeah, because you want to be around for him. CHRIS: Yeah, to be honest with you, this whole get up, I've thought about for the last four years.  MARY: Yeah, this is what it's gonna look like. CHRIS: Yeah. And going through that experience gave me the courage to kind of step out of the shell and put it out there and move forward because what's the worst thing that can happen? Somebody will laugh at you? MARY: Right. Exactly.  CHRIS: You know at the end of the day, this is who I am.  MARY: And who cares? If they're laughing at you, they're looking at you?  CHRIS: They're looking at you. They're going to remember.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: This is who I am. A little country guy from South Carolina just trying to sell some good barbecue and sauce.  MARY: Yeah, I love it. Chris, I love it. So we were, like I said we were in the Greenville cohort, Greenville starts cohort together, and for those of you may not know that's like an eight week program where the participants could expose everything from, you know, fundraising, capital to legal issues and things that of course, you're not an expert in everything, right? And so we learned so much to marketing. I mean, you name it, we touched on it in that class. What were some of the takeaways from that that you are implementing now? Almost a year later.   CHRIS: Want to hear a good story? MARY: Yeah always.  CHRIS: It kind of goes with the question you asked me previously about my experience.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: Do you remember the night that we wrote the breakup letter?  MARY: Yes. We had to write a breakup letter to our business. And you know, you're the second person to bring this up in these conversations, but his breakup letter was amazing. But go ahead.  CHRIS: I lived my breakup letter this year. And that night, the night that we had read that letter out loud and share that experience…  MARY: Yeah.   CHRIS: I lived it this year. And going through it and living it and seeing your dreams kind of, let's just say be taken away.  MARY: Yeah, yeah.  CHRIS: It makes you appreciate your gifts and it makes you appreciate what you did. So, without Greenville Starts, I probably wouldn't have pushed through this year. I probably would have gave up and just gone back to working the nine to five and just you know enjoy life but my experience with Greenville Starts and having to, you know, go through a made breakup with something that you love and then having to go through it actually, it kind of gave you…I can go back and I can remember some of the speeches that the speakers gave. I will say it gave me motivation and courage and more than anything else it taught me that I'm not a know it all. I've worked in the banking industry for years as a banker and on the other side of the fence, telling people no to loans and being actually on the opposite end of it - trying to be approved, trying to get all your documents together gives you a whole new appreciation for what people on the other side go through. We've been on both sides. I have an appreciation for both now. But I will say that Greenville Starts… it gave me the courage to bounce back and gave me that fight and it prepared me for the hurdles that were ahead. So if anybody in Greenville County has a business idea and they feel like they can make it, but their confidence is an issue, I would definitely recommend Greenville Starts. We have the all-American, the GOAT, the great, the best hair, Brian Davis. He just…has a way of inspiring…inspiring you. Like just…any of our cohorts, I think about you guys and where you're at and I see your successes and it motivates you. You see other people being successful and that pushes you on.  MARY: One hundred percent. Which is the whole reason we do this podcast is to share your all's stories with the public so that we can encourage other people to go ahead and follow their dreams and create their ventures, you know, and I mean, you talk about Greenville Starts being an inspiration, you're an inspiration to, I know our entire cohort.  CHRIS: I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I think, you know, God puts you in a certain place at a certain time. And I think I feel like that was a perfect time because like going into it, I'll be honest with you toward the end of class I kind of felt like something was off. It drained me. It drained me. It put me… I don't like talking about this aspect of it, but it impacted my mental health.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: It gave me some anxiety and put me in a depressive state and it you know, that's not me. MARY: Right. CHRIS: One hundred miles per hour, 100 days a week.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: So at the end of the class, it was like okay, what we got going on? And you guys really pushed us through. It's like a family. It's not just like a class. It's not just like a group of people. It feels like family and a cheerleader group.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I've coached football, played football. I love sports and I love that team aspect. And that's what it felt like. Each week it wasn't a competition against each other. It was a way that we can push each other…push each other to make each other better. It's been a year and a half now. And when you can go back and recall specific conversations and specifics in a needed time, that's when you know it had an impact on you. That's what Greenville Starts said to me.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: It put a lot of information in this encyclopedia up here.  MARY: Yeah. I love that. I love that. What advice do you have to other entrepreneurs that you… either from Greenville Starts or just your personal experience?  CHRIS: I'm going to steal one from Ted Lasso.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: The great Ted Lasso. You got to believe. And what he also says…that's number one is believe.You got to believe in yourself. You got to believe in the process and you got to trust, you know, that the good Lord put you in a position he gave you whatever gifts that you have for a reason. And you have to follow the plan in your process. When things get hard, you got to go harder.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And when things get easy, you got to kind of scratch your head and say, why is that so easy and know that something's coming. MARY: Right. Be prepared.  CHRIS: Be prepared because something's around the corner. The other thing is, I'm a Florida State fan. And the reason I'm a Florida State fan is because of…He talked about a lot about what you do when people aren't watching.  MARY: Yes.  CHRIS: And as an entrepreneur… it's what you're doing behind the scenes and when people aren't watching is what's going to make you successful. You know, the… you know, I cook a brisket 26 hours for it to be gone in 30 minutes.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So it's what I do behind the scenes and the effort and what people don't see is what makes you a great entrepreneur and a great… and great at what you do. And the last is something I learned from a guy named Tom Leopard back in 2012. Your priorities. As an entrepreneur, you have to have your priorities in order. It's got to be your faith, your family, and your fortune. If those three get out of whack at any point in time, it's time to step back, reevaluate, and bring them back in line and then things will start flowing so greatly. So always remember your faith, your family, and then you're fortune and as long as those three are aligned, you can always be successful and bounce back.  MARY: I love that. The three F's.  CHRIS: The three F's.  MARY: I love it. So you brought some… before we let you go, you brought some goodies for us. So, boy, I wish people…I wish we had smellivision because that cake smells so good. Oh my gosh. So Chris, what do we have here? This is one of the cakes that you do.  CHRIS: This is my spin on a…You lived in Kentucky?  MARY: I did not live in Kentucky.  CHRIS: I don't know why I thought you lived in Kentucky. So, this is my take on a Kentucky butter cake.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: So I call it a Carolina butter cake.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: It's a pound cake with some secret flavors.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: As all things as Mr. Sauce It Up does, we also do cake glazes.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: So this has a pineapple. No, I'm sorry…a peach mango rum glaze to it.  MARY: Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is going to be so good.  CHRIS: Mixed in butter. Something I came up with. I am the king of taking a recipe and turning it into my own. MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So, that's what I do the best. I don't… You know, if I go out to eat I'm probably going to take two… two combos, two meals and turn it into one.  MARY: And put them together.  CHRIS: So this is kind of what I've done with this and created my own flavor, but I feel pretty confident, I'm willing to bet you a $1 to your paycheck that you've never had a flavor like this.  MARY: All right, let's see it.  CHRIS: Let's see. Let me pull out my Dexter knife.  MARY: He's going to pull out his Dexter knife. Oh yeah, that's a Dexter knife. All right. All right. All right, let's cut into this sucker. So remind me again what the glaze is?  CHRIS: This is a peach mango with a hint of rum.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: And some other stuff that I can't really share with you at the time. I'll share with you at the time.  MARY: Right let's go. Cheers.  CHRIS: Cheers.  MARY: Oh my gosh.  CHRIS: Mmm. Mama where you at? Come on over here, get smacked.  MARY: That is so good. Did you say mama come on over here, get smacked?  CHRIS: Come on over. Come on over.  MARY: Oh yeah. So, we're going to have to change that phrase, well or add to it…the best damn sauce…the best damn glaze…because this is good stuff.  CHRIS: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.  MARY: Oh my goodness. Alright. So again, we'll have the links to how you get in touch with Chris wherever we're posting this podcast, both on YouTube and all of our podcast channels. Just look under the copy, the body copy. And you'll see that there because you… if you are having an event, you want to hire Chris to cater that event. Again, it's the entertainment and food. You can't beat that. CHRIS: Let me tell you.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I didn't mean to interrupt, but this cake is good.  MARY: It does taste good.  CHRIS: It tastes good. I'm a pound cake foodie and I think I've found something here.  MARY: I think you have too.  CHRIS: Not to brag, but yeah.  MARY: I think…I can't put it down. I got to finish eating so I can say the rest of the show so I can close the show out. Oh my gosh. So good. Alright. How do people get in touch with you if they want to get some sauce or they want you to cater an event?  CHRIS: Cater an event. You can find me on Facebook - Chris Sexton or Sexton's Smoke-N- Grill. Also on Instagram, it's Chris Sexton or Sexton's Smoke-N-Grill. Email me at sextonssmokengrill@gmail.com. www.sextonssmokengrill.com. And that's just Sexton's, Smoke, the letter “n”, grill.com. Or you can call me 864-680-4629. We got the sauces.  MARY: Alright, Chris, thank you so much.  CHRIS: Thank you. Anytime. Anytime.  MARY: So remember, if someone you know is an entrepreneur or has an idea, Greenville Starts is a great place for them to get started or if they're somewhere in the process along the way and they just need that little extra “umph” to learn things that they don't necessarily know, then that's a great place. So, in order to get into the next cohort, all you have to do is Google Greenville Starts and Furman and it should be the very first link that pops up and get yourself on that list.  The other thing I wanted to remind everybody of is that we have the Paladin Pitch competition, which if you are a Furman student, you can win $10,000 for your venture. That's coming up in April, but you have to participate in some pitch competitions before that. So, contact the Hill Institute, get your pitch to them and start working and then from all those pitches throughout the year, they'll choose the finalists to pitch in April. So be thinking about that, be brainstorming. If you want to do something, now is the time to do it. So, that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I'm your host Mary Sturgilll. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producers, Kayla Patterson and Eliza Polich, a true example of the Furman Advantage. And remember, you can get this podcast two ways now - you can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcast, we also have a YouTube channel where you can watch it and you can see this beautiful cake that we just ate and see us eating it. And we also.. follow us on Tik Tok if you're on Tik Tok because we just started a brand new Tik Tok channel and you'll see a lot of the outtakes and a lot of cool stuff on behind the scenes stuff on that Tik Tok channel. Until next time everybody, dream big.    

With dessert comes happiness, and happiness can breed employee morale get your company noticed. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we sat down with Stufona Latta, founder and CEO of the desert consulting company, Bake Your Mark. In our conversation, Stufona discusses the need for companies to maintain employee morale and innovative ways to share the company brand. We discuss how her company, Bake Your Mark fulfills both those needs. Stufona also shares how valuable the Greenville Starts program was for her and urges entrepreneurs to immerse themselves into communities of like-minded individuals. Guest: Stufona Latta Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   TRANSCRIPT: MARY: Hi, everyone, welcome to the Class E Podcast. I'm your host Mary Sturgill. This is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And this particular episode is part of our Everyday Entrepreneur series in which we talk with graduates of the Greenville Starts program in hopes that us sharing their stories with you will help inspire you to take whatever idea you have and make it into a venture. So today we have a very special sweet guest, Stufona Latta, who is the CEO and sugar maven…  STUFONA: That's me.  MARY: …at Bake Your Mark. Welcome to the show, Stufona.  STUFONA: Thank you for having me.  MARY: I love this… the sugar maven.  STUFONA: That's me.  MARY: That's what you call yourself?  STUFONA: It is because I feel like, you know, all things dessert, it's sweet. I'm very knowledgeable. So I'm a maven in it. So, there you go.  MARY: There you go. So how did you come up with Bake Your Mark and exactly for our viewers and listeners who don't really know what that is, what is your company?  STUFONA: So Bake Your Mark is a dessert consulting company, primarily business to business. And basically what I'm doing is that I am helping companies bake their mark, increase their branding through desserts.  MARY: Yeah, I love this. So the types of…give us some indications of the types of folks who come to you and say okay, I want to, I want to bake my mark. And you're really putting their logos on edibles.  STUFONA: Correct.  MARY:I should say… clarify edibles…sweets.  STUFONA: So I had… one company reached out to me. It was a fairly new HR department and they didn't know their employees. And so they said, hey, you know, we just want to have something to go with our chat. We're going to have them come in the break rooms. I was like, okay, what about cookies? They were like okay. So they got their flavors together. And it was called, like, chat with Chris and Shawn.  MARY: Yeah.  STUFONA: Get the cookies. They didn't know I was gonna put their logo on it. So I did and they were like, we don't care how this tastes, we're going to use them. I'm like okay. And they had employees that they had the cookies. They had some employees that didn't make the chat, but they would come and say hey, do you have any of those cookies left? We heard about them. And so they were able to engage with employees they otherwise wouldn't have met just on the fact that we heard that the new HR team had some really good cookies.  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: You know, let's kind of check them out. So I think that's how it helps because as far as human resources, fairly new, you are able to engage with employees that you may have missed just because you work a different shift or whatnot.  MARY: Yeah, so here I am limiting my thinking. I was thinking, oh, this is a great way to reach customers. But it's like you said it's a great way to reach your employees as well. And I would think build loyalty and employee morale.  STUFONA: Correct.  MARY: Yeah.  STUFONA: And that was kind of my thinking behind it…  MARY: Yeah.  STUFONA: …is that it's about connection.  MARY: Yeah. STUFONA: Whether you're connecting with your employees on a personal level or clients on a personal level, because I do love a branded item. I have all my pens and notebooks that if you really give a dessert, which let's just say you know, they really like brownies, so you give them a brownie with  MARY: Your logo right there.  STUFONA: Class E Podcast on there.  MARY: Yeah.  STUFONA: And then they're like, oh my gosh, this is so good. I remember when my grandma made these and then it's kind of… they're tying that food memory in with the podcast and it's just like, oh, that's kind of cool.  MARY: Yeah, that's so smart.  STUFONA: Yeah.  MARY: So I… this is, this can fill another niche in branding, as you say with a company. I mean, they have their pens and their T-shirts and their whatevers… their swag that they give people but we have such strong food memories. I think you're right about that. That if you connect through a food memory, then that kind of solidifies that, that branding even more than a t-shirt or a pen would.  STUFONA: Exactly.  MARY: I would think.  STUFONA: And that was kind of my rationale behind it.  MARY: Yeah.  STUFONA: It's just like if you can tie your brand to a positive memory, that's an instant connection. And then it's kind of like, you know, let's say we want to see which podcast...okay, which university I want to attend.  MARY: Right, right.  STUFONA:  Well, Furman did this for me.  MARY: Yeah.I remember that chocolate chip cookie from the DH.  STUFONA: And I wasn't even a student there. So what would they do for me as, you know, once I'm enrolled?  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: And so that's kind of my thinking behind it.  MARY: Yeah.  STUFONA: …is that, you know, if they just do this, just because, what will they actually do once I'm a part of the Furman family?  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: And so…  MARY: I love that. So how long ago did you start baking and how did you discover that you had that passion?  STUFONA: So, I grew up around baking. Both my mother and father…they always kept something sweet in the house, but I was one that… I had to stay out the kitchen. I couldn't. I could only lick the beaters afterwards. That was it. That was the extent. And so my mom passed when I was 20. I was a sophomore in college. And I didn't know it, but I think I use it as a way to kind of continue that continuation.  MARY: Right, that connection to her. STUFONA: That connection. Correct. And then my father just passed in December. And I found… he was… had this famous apple cake and I found the recipe for it and so… MARY: Was that the one you brought to us at Greenville Starts? STUFONA: It's not. I did bring an apple cake, but it isn't. Yeah. Nope. That's not it, it's a different one. So, it's just that. It's like alright, two different apple cakes, but this one reminds me of my father.   MARY: But that's that memory that we're talking about too. I mean, that connection. Yeah. So you have the connection to both your parents. And so that kind of… I love that because that's kind of carrying on the traditions of the family, you know?  STUFONA: Yeah, and it was just their pastime.  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: I don't know if they ever wanted to do it as a career.  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: But I was like, hey, you know, I'm good at it and I would bring things to work all the time, like anytime I'd see a recipe, I'd bake it, take it to work and everybody would be like, oh, we would buy that from you. You know, you need to go bake and so that's what I did.  MARY: So when did you start Bake Your Mark?  STUFONA: I started Bake Your Mark April of 2020.  MARY: Oh, wow.  STUFONA: Right in the midst of the pandemic. Right when no one could go do anything or celebrate with loved ones.  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: And so that's kind of how I came up with the individual packaging just to kind of… even know we're hopefully, you know, out of it… new normal, whatever you want to call it. Still, just as that precaution, I do like to do individual servings and…  MARY: Individually packaged.  STUFONA: Right. So, it's like, okay, who's hands been on this?  MARY: That's a good idea. And it makes them, if somebody's at an event or at a workshop or conference or whatever their company is hosting, they can take that and put it in their purse and, you know, have a little snack later.  STUFONA: Right.  MARY: So, it continues to kind of put that brand out there. So, Stufona, you used a human resource as an example. You work in human resources so you see the connections with that.  STUFONA: I do.  MARY: What other aspects of that particular part of your background have you been able to incorporate into the business?  STUFONA: That… being in human resources I really was able to see how some employees could feel like they're just a cog in the wheel. You know, you really don't get anything personalized. You have someone that works for your company, let's say 25 years.  MARY: Yeah.  STUFONA: They've gotten married, had children, children have grown up, all within that same company. How do you recognize that?  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: Like we recognize, you know, years of service and work anniversaries or birthdays, but what do you do for someone whose child has just graduated high school going off to college, and now they're an empty nester all within a timeframe of them working for you.  MARY: Right. They've lived their whole lives there, their whole adult lives there. Yeah, yeah.  STUFONA: You know, what company actually says…  MARY: We appreciate you.  STUFONA: Yeah, we appreciate you and you know, eat all these brownies on your way to take your child to college.  MARY: Yes.  STUFONA: Because we know you're gonna need them.  MARY: Yeah, exactly. Even little things like that make such a huge difference in making your employees feel like they are valued and they are appreciated.  STUFONA: And it's not a grand statement.  MARY: No.  STUFONA: Because we all know it's just the little things.   MARY: Exactly.  STUFONA: You know, thinking of you, again, like my sister passed away while I worked at my previous company, and, you know, of course I only had, you know, condolences, but there really wasn't anything else. And so, for companies that really value or want to show that they value their employees, this is a way for them to do so.  MARY: In a personal way I think.  STUFONA: Very personal.  MARY: Yeah. I love this. I love this. So you were in the first Greenville Starts cohort with me, and we loved being your guinea pigs with all of the recipes that you brought in and stuff. It was so much fun.  STUFONA: Oh yeah.  MARY: What were some of the takeaways that you got from that experience that you have now put forth into your business?  STUFONA: For me, again, it's all about meeting new people.  MARY: Yeah. STUFONA: And so we were all you know, different stages of our entrepreneurial journey. We could all keep in touch and I found ways that oh, they can help me, you know, I can use this in the future or really be able to bounce off ideas. And what I realized is kind of forging I guess, the City of Greenville and Furman University. So you have like the educational component, which is what Greenville Starts was doing plus you had the city backing it which means…says to me, you know…  MARY: They believe in you.  STUFONA: Yeah, so, I really enjoy that. I really enjoy teams that we had and the people, the speakers that we had. I actually met with...  MARY: Oh, yeah.  STUFONA: …recently about a month or so ago. MARY: Yeah.   STUFONA: Just to kind of talk about it. And again, I wouldn't have been introduced to that particular company had I not participated in Greenville Starts.  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: So, just kind of learning and getting the knowledge of… these are some things that we need to consider while we're doing business.  MARY: Right. I completely agree with that. The… such good connections for you because as you're sitting here, I'm always brainstorming, you know, entrepreneurs, we all are and I'm brainstorming, oh, what a great connection for you because of this and this and this, right? And so you never know what… I mean, so obviously, we had the connection number there, you know, with the 26 or 29 people that were in our cohort, but all of the, the professionals in their areas because that's one of the great things that Greenville Starts does is that it brings professionals in, you know, the area of law or the area of marketing or PR and branding and that kind of thing. And because we can't be experts in every single thing. So we got all of those touch points with all of those great speakers and all those great people and connections that we can now take with us and use or say hey, I connect with other people because I look at myself as a connector as well. And I'm like, oh, well, I met this person that would really help you with your mentor.  STUFONA: Exactly.   MARY: And the wider we cast those nets with our connections and our network, the better we all are.  STUFONA: Exactly. And then for me, I know there's always a lot of talk, especially with tech companies about scaling up, scale up, scale up, sell it off. But what happens is that once the business has been sold… yes, it's good for the owner, but there's no longer an economic impact potentially if they leave Greenville.  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: Whereas for me…  MARY: Which many of them do. When they scale up like that, they do leave Greenville. Yeah.  STUFONA: For me, I want to be kind of rooted so I always say scale deep. Kind of want to be entrenched…  MARY: Oh, I like that. Scale deep.  STUFONA: …in the community.  MARY: I just got goosebumps.  STUFONA: So, you know, I want to be entrenched in my community. I am a native of this area so and I've seen the changes and I see the good things.  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: And so, again, like I said, company that follows an employee, I want a company to use me for that same thing. I remember when they started up and now they are celebrating their 5 million mark of revenue.  MARY: Yeah, yeah.  STUFONA: And we're still here and we're all in this together. And I would love for my product to be a part of that from the start, hey, new employee here you go to, you know, this employee is now the CFO.  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: But they started out as an analyst. Anything. So that growth and development within your company, I want to be able to do that and keep it here in Greenville.  MARY: I love that because most of the time you're right as entrepreneurs, especially in the tech field. It's like let's grow the business, scale it up and then somebody's going to purchase this and we're gonna make a lot of money off of this. And that's their sole goal, which is fine. And that's great. That's amazing for them. And amazing for the, you know, sometimes amazing for the people who work there, if they're well taken care of in that transition. But you're right, oftentimes those companies do then leave and take because they're part of a larger company now, they're headquartered now in Nebraska, or wherever, or Silicon Valley or whatever. And so I think what you said about scaling deep is so important as well, and I think that many of us need to take another look at that, right? So it's not just about scaling up, it's about keeping our roots here.  STUFONA: Exactly.  MARY: But, but growing as much as we can. And then of course, I mean, you could be nationwide because you can ship and you can do whatever so it's, it's you can scale…  STUFONA: But I'm still paying these South Carolina taxes.  MARY: Exactly. Exactly. But… and that's something that you learn about in Greenville Starts is when you have to do these things.  STUFONA: Yes.  MARY: But the potential for that is, is still there as well. Right? And you could franchise and there are multiple ways that you could scale up it while still staying deep, but I think that's what, as entrepreneurs, we look at and we recognize, right?  STUFONA: That's it.  MARY: What is a piece of advice that you have for someone who thinks they have a good idea but they haven't taken that step yet, or maybe they've started and they… now they're stuck and they just don't know where to go from here?  STUFONA: My first piece of advice would be for them to get out of their own way. Because really, that's what stops us…  MARY: That's so true.  STUFONA: Our fear, our just whatever, like we feel like inadequacy or anything, but there is someone to buy everything.  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: And you can say man, why didn't I think of that banana slicer?  MARY: Yeah.  STUFONA: Even if it's just a gag gift,  MARY: Right and I mean, so many people love gadgets, especially so I would buy a banana slicer.  STUFONA: And then the second piece would be, again to find a program such as Greenville Starts to participate in to see that you're not alone. Like yes, you may have this particular endeavor that's different from everyone else, but you're pretty much gonna find people that are in the same starting places.  MARY: Yeah.  STUFONA: And so even though you may be out in left field, you're all playing baseball.  MARY: Exactly.  STUFONA: It's a team.  MARY: And it takes, it takes everybody to create that ecosystem and create that team. Because I mean, I learned so much from everybody in that class, and just about different…even our businesses were totally different. There are certain things that you can take obviously and apply to your own business, even if it's totally like we had a bunch of really cool tech guys in our, in our cohort that I sat and talked with, and I learned a lot and I was like, okay, I can, I can take that idea and apply it to mine.  STUFONA: We all need to protect our brand.  MARY: Yep.  STUFONA: So, you know, we all have to make sure we're following the right rules and regulations and filing our taxes or whatnot.  MARY: Right.  STUFONA: Making sure we have the proper registration. So, you know, there are basic tenets that we all have to follow regardless of what we're actually pursuing.  MARY: Right. 100% 100% So Stufona, what's next for you and Bake Your Mark?  STUFONA: So, I'm out at Travelers Rest Farmers Market through October and I really love going out there because first of all, it's… but I really enjoy meeting the individual people and each week I kind of design a different menu. And so that helps me see what sells, what doesn't…  MARY: Oh yeah. You're doing market research.  STUFONA: Right.  MARY: Love it. Yeah.  STUFONA: Right. And then as far as company wide, it's just helping companies get that loyalty and that recognition for their brand and then also doing the same for myself. So kind of trying to do a little market strategies to see, you know, what will be the best avenue for me to do that.  MARY: Yeah. So if someone wants to hire you to brand some things, some items, some really delicious dessert items for their company, how do they get in touch with you?  STUFONA: They can submit a request via my website www.bakeyourmark.com and then I'm also on Instagram @bake.your.mark. So, those would be the two best ways… to shoot me a DM.  MARY: Or go talk to her at the Travelers Rest Farmers Market.  STUFONA: Oh yeah. Talk to me there.  MARY: Because you might walk away with some things. I guarantee it. Stufona, thank you so much for joining us.  STUFONA: Of course. Thanks for having me.  MARY: Oh, you have a special offer for anybody who listens to the broadcast.  STUFONA: That's right.  MARY: Yeah, let's talk about that.  STUFONA: Anyone that wants to try me out, which I don't know why you wouldn't, but okay.  MARY: I don't know either because it's good.  STUFONA: You can get 10% off your first order. Just mention that you heard about me on Class E.  MARY: Alright, perfect. So make sure that you mention to her when you talk to her that you heard about her company, Bake Your Mark, on the Class E Podcast and you get 10% off your first order. That's a great little discount there. Stufona, thank you so much.   STUFONA: Thank you.   MARY: All right, everyone. That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I'm your host Mary Sturgilll. Remember, this is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship at Furman University and the Communication Studies department. It is produced by two student producers, Kayla Patterson and Eliza Polich. This is a true example of the Furman Advantage because these students do everything it takes to put on this podcast including the marketing and promotion for it. The other thing I want to remind you is that you, if you want to join the Greenville Starts program, all you have to do is Google Greenville Starts and Furman and it should be the very first thing that pops up when you do that. And check to see… the cohort may be full but you can get yourself on a list for the very next cohort because this is an ongoing thing. So make sure that you or if you have friends or family members who have a great idea, push them to do that because they will not regret it. Alright, that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Again I'm your host Mary Sturgill. Dream big everybody.  

It's natural to not like competition, but having it is key for successful entrepreneurs. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked with Fred Cary, a serial entrepreneur and thought leader who has over thirty years of experience. Cary discusses the various successful companies he has taken to the next level and shares how his current company, Idea Pros, provides anyone a path into the entrepreneurial world. He also encourages entrepreneurs to view failure and competition as good things in their ventures. Guest: Fred Cary Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   TRANSCRIPT MARY: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Class E Podcast. I am your host Mary Sturgill. As you all know, this is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. Our hope with these podcasts is to share the story of innovative and entrepreneurial thinkers in hopes of inspiring you. And today we welcome, serial entrepreneur and thought leader with over thirty years of experience in that space, Fred Cary, has created transformational strategies that have resulted in billions of dollars in corporate value, and these stories cross boundaries. He's built high-growth businesses in finance and software, mobile technologies, data, retail, consumer products and E-commerce and probably a lot more. Through all of that, he's acquired of course thousands of lessons along the way that he is now going to share with us and he's sharing in his latest venture Idea Pros, which is an entrepreneurial startup services company. Fred, welcome to the show.  FRED: Well, thank you so much. I'm not sure I'm gonna I'm going to share thousands of lessons but we'll hit some of the big ones.  MARY: We'll share what we can with the time we have. So you have a… just to give everybody a little bit of background on you, you have a background in law with the Thomas Jefferson School of Law and Harvard and you have an MBA in business from the University of Liverpool. But I suspect that your history with entrepreneurship started kind of way before long, way before you did any of that stuff. What sparked innovation and entrepreneurship for you?  FRED: The fact that I didn't fit the mold. I always felt kind of like an outsider from the way that my childhood and teenage friends approached what they thought was going to be their adult life. And the way that I did it, I was always all over the place. And I was always thinking about how to do things the different way, in a more unusual way, than my friends were. So that's really… by 21 I knew I could never work for anybody else.  MARY: So you knew at that point that you were just going to create whatever you needed to create at that point in time to work for yourself?  FRED: Absolutely.  MARY: Yeah. You've… we've listed briefly some of the ventures that you've had. What I'd like you to do, just to give everybody a little bit of background, can you go… take us through some of those, just briefly, maybe your favorites and briefly talk about what they are and where you took them.  FRED: My favorite companies?  MARY: Yes, yeah.  FRED: Historically?  MARY: Yeah.  FRED: Ok. So I think one of my favorites was Boxlot. And the reason for that is it was a company that was going to be a disaster. We started in 1998. And we were chasing eBay. eBay was literally a year ahead of us with their app and well, their website mostly at that point, and we just couldn't catch up. We had an auction website, we did better auctions than they did, much finer quality things than they did. And we ended up being just a distant second that we couldn't change. We had a lot of money that had already been invested in us. And it was time to either shut the doors down or figure something else out. And we had to make a really, really big pivot. I don't like quitting, and so, our pivot became let's be a technology company. The reason was a lot of the underlying technology needed for options, reverse bidding, bitter buy, accepting multiple bids, automated bidding increments, and a lot of that technology didn't exist. And so we turned ourselves into a technology company and re-sparked everything and all the biggest companies in the world started using our technology. And we ended up getting an agreement 18 months later for $125 million acquisition of our company which it was something that should have been in the assets. So I think that's a good one for me.   MARY: Yeah, that's huge.  FRED: Yeah. Another one's Imagine Communications. When HD first started penetrating American households, the cable industry was in really bad shape because the cable that would go to the home would only support one megabit of data and they needed back then 1.5 megabits to deliver an HD signal. And so it was going to be disaster for the cable industry. We came up with a technology that we approached the cable companies with our proposed technology and they said if you can make it we'll buy it and my engineers said, “You're crazy. We can't make it.” But we did. And nine months later, we came up with a technology that could in different residential communities that actually took their infrastructure and we quadrupled their throughput. So instead of only being able to handle one standard definition signal, they were able to deliver to HD and one standard using all the same infrastructure they had in place. So that company now, Imagine Communications, does probably $750 million a year in revenue and you know, it started from an idea that couldn't happen.  MARY: Right, that people thought just wasn't possible at the time. Yeah, that's amazing. And then what would be your third one?  FRED: Well, my third one is IdeaPros, the company I'm in right now. It's the hardest even though I brought a couple of companies public, it's the hardest I've ever worked really. And it's because we become co-founders with entrepreneurs and it's expensive to work with us. It's not cheap at all, but the entrepreneurs that we're about ready to go out and spend 100, 200, 300, $500,000 to build an app, build a company, do all the engineering for physical products, we approach them or they approach us most likely to be the co founder and they will pay us an upfront fee, a fixed fee of around, it's around $100,000 and they give us 30% of the company we're going to form together and then we do everything. We do all the heavy lifting from research and competitive analysis, customer profiling, branding, naming, positioning, development of the website, development of the app, development of the physical product, engineering, and all the way through marketing and then launching while we're training the entrepreneur how to really, really be experienced in a year period of time. So that's been very, very fruitful. I've had 100,000 applications in the last two years. We've taken 400 companies and we have about 24 of them that we think are going to be worth around $100 million dollars each. So $2.4 billion worth of value right there. So that's been very rewarding and very stressful at the same time.  MARY: Yeah, I bet so because I mean, I know, and you probably experienced this in your own journey that, you know, you have this great idea, but sometimes, a lot of times, you don't necessarily have the skills that it takes to make that idea into a company or a viable company, right? And you guys seem like you're providing that for some of the idea people.  FRED: You know, when I was a kid, the rich people were the doctors and lawyers and the businesses down the street and the movie stars, the athletes…now when people think about wealth, it's about entrepreneurs. When you have social media, it makes it look easy, but if you look at the underlying data, literally 94% of the multimillionaires and billionaires are entrepreneurs, went to really great schools, over 60% of them got advanced degrees from those schools. They know how to be an insider, they know how to play that insider game. And the rest of us the 95% of us, including me, we were all outsiders. We don't know the rules. We don't have the connections. We don't know what we're supposed to build and that's why the biggest cause of failure for new companies in America is that entrepreneurs build something there's no demand for. How crazy is that? You think the number one thing would be not enough money. The number one thing is that you built something that nobody wants. Your mother won't even buy it and that's really devastating to think all those dreams crushed. And so we started Idea Pros to really turn those outsiders into insights.  MARY: Yeah, so that's what I was gonna say is you're taking those outsiders and giving them the path to get on the inside.  FRED: Exactly.  MARY: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So can you talk about a couple of the companies that you're working with?  FRED: Yeah. And I have to be careful because I'm just launching in semi secret mode. But we have one company that is, it's an app company. It's basically if you think of it as Uber for the construction industry, and it's called Grunt. You can find them at trygrunt.com. And basically, what it is is this, this founder came from the construction industry, always breaking tools, running out of supplies, and they need to go off the job site and you waste the day, waste a couple days and a couple of people that are going out there for hours. And with Grunt, you can place orders for whatever you want. Grunt drivers pick it up, deliver it to your site within an hour and in some cases two depending on how many places they need to go to. And so it really sells a major problem for the industry. On top of that, we're trying to make Grunt drivers sexy, you know? I can't tell you the number of guys in their 20s and 30s that probably hate delivering groceries to grandma at 8 o'clock at night. You know, it's not a very compelling side hustle. Be able to tell your girlfriend you're gonna go out and pick up some lumber and that's part of what you do in the first place. We want to make it like UPS when UPS first started coming out their drivers with the sexy shorts and everything was a big spin on things. And so we're doing the same thing with Grunt to try to make it a side hustle that you can be proud of doing if you fit that profile.  MARY: Yeah, and that's actually… I agree that's so much needed. I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity, and it was my job to get that project… get them all the materials we needed for whatever project on site and it does take a lot of time away if you're not prepared for that.  FRED: Yeah, yeah, anything can happen. You get there and then it's the wrong, the wrong thing.  MARY: Absolutely.  FRED: So, we're gonna do really, really well with that. There's another one that talking about kind of, Habitat for Humanity and things like that, there's another one called Exhale. Exhale is a web based solution. Our partner has been in health care for many years, and she's dealt with people with lung issues. And insurance companies only cover you when you get to stage four lung disease, which is insane to me. It's like okay, we're gonna help you die. Stages one, two, and three is where people really really need the help and it's not covered. So we built this company called Exhale. It's all… hundreds of videos, advice on how to eat, how to sleep, the types of exercises you do, you have groups. You put it all together and she's launched. She's doing really, really well. There's a lot of doctor groups that are signing up with her. She actually got picked to be on the board of the National Board of Directors for the American Lung Association, because of this work. So that's been a really noble work that's's really really taken off so that I think that's another good example.  MARY: Yeah, absolutely. What are some of the criteria that you look for? Because I'm sure some people have come to you, they've had the money. But you've looked at… you've done your due diligence and you look at them and you just don't think this is viable. What are some of the things that you're looking for?  FRED: You know, I was the first person doing this and so I've made a ton of mistakes, speaking of thousands of lessons. When we first started, we were really mostly interested in the idea and of course, the capital you had contributed or my model didn't work. If you don't have skin in the game, you're not as motivated as if you do. That's one lesson that I learned historically. So now, the entrepreneurs are actually even more important than the idea, because we can take an idea as long as it's a decent idea, we can take it and we can massage it and we can turn it into a great idea but you can't turn somebody into a great entrepreneur, if they don't have the heart if they don't have the grit and determination, not able to accept failure as a step towards success. If you don't have those things, you're not going to make it no matter how great of an idea we turn this into. So ultimately, obviously, got to be able to fit the financial profile. But then the very next step is are you somebody who's not going to quit? And if you got those two things going, now let's take a look at your idea. And let's see what that real market need is and whether or not this thing can go in and become a dominant player in that space. Those are the things that we look for in that order.  MARY: What's one of the problems that you wish that you discovered in any of your processes in any of your companies that you wish someone had told you beforehand?  FRED: Um, well, I think the most obvious one is things never work out the way you intend. And everything's gonna take twice as long and cost twice as much. And that's just the way it is, you know, and we have, we as entrepreneurs, we look at things and we see that there's a real need, and we believe that the world is going to come running towards us with this new great solution. And it's really, really a long process. I mean, if you look, everybody talks about Elon Musk and, and Tesla and everything. Number one, he wasn't the founder of Tesla, it's two other guys that did it. But number two, the first electric car 1890.  MARY: Right.  FRED: 1890.  MARY: I literally just read that the other day.  FRED: Oh you did?  MARY: Yeah.  FRED: I got my facts. So, the reality is that things take a long time and just because you're first doesn't mean you're ever gonna make it. And sometimes, I think the second lesson I learned is sometimes it's good not to be first. If you're second, third, fourth, you're making something but you're making it better because you've had the first ones go in there and crash and burn and try to do things but not do it well. And now you have a market demand, you have people who have penetrated the market, you have customers that are screaming about that one star component of the solution, and you can make that one-star thing, your five-star thing. So I would say don't be afraid of competition and understand that things take a really long time. So don't be afraid of failure either.  MARY: I think a lot of times and correct me if I'm wrong, because you probably know more about this world than I do, but I think venture capitalists sometimes look at the competition aspect of it. Is there competition in the marketplace already? And that kind of almost contradicts what you just said about it's okay to be the second or third company.  FRED: Yeah, well, you know, if they were worried about that, they would have never taken HelloFresh after Blue Apron or Lyft after Uber. There's always room for more than one. And if you look at, for example, the food delivery apps, there are at least a half dozen… ones that are doing really, really well.  MARY: Oh, yeah.  FRED: So venture capital, there's no venture capital firm that would give a dime to Quicken. When Quicken first started, he literally went door to door to every venture capitalist in Silicon Valley. Now over 240 of them, not one would give him a penny. They thought it was a stupid idea. Of course, after he really started kicking butt everybody wanted to give money at that.  MARY: Of course.  FRED: One thing you have to understand or the audience needs to understand about venture capital or any other type of investor, they don't know everything. A lot of times they haven't even ever started their own company. Some of them are just finance people, and bankers, and they are theoretically inclined, as opposed to being able to really find that target market and understand that there's an opportunity so don't be discouraged. If you can't find money in one place, go find it somewhere else. Because eventually you'll get it. Yeah, venture capital…To me, somebody comes in right away and says, “Hey, I have no competition. It's awesome.” If you have no competition, there's no demand, right? Because competition fills a demand that is generated by consumers or whoever the ultimate customer is. And if there's no demand and you're doing something so revolutionary that you have to actually build a demand where none existed before, then that's billions of dollars probably to get there. I mean, people..I use the example of the first car you know, somebody could argue that there was no competition when the first car came out, but the competition was horses. You know, that the issue was transportation. And so the demand was there for to be transported. You just had a different way of transporting people. And you're going to compete against that horse in the beginning. Cars were actually slower in some cases than horses and buggies. So, there's always competition and if there isn't, you know, you're gonna be one of those that fail because you created something that there is no demand for.   MARY: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. Let's see, do you have and I kind of feel like you do, just from our conversation, do you have kind of an entrepreneurial philosophy of entrepreneurism?  FRED: Well, my first philosophy is, don't.  MARY: That's what everybody says.  FRED: Look, if you want to be an entrepreneur, you need to understand it's a lifelong struggle,no matter how far along you get. I mean, Elon Musk with SpaceX, he was one rocket failure away from losing everything that he had after he'd already had a couple of successes. A big payday for PayPal. And yet, still having those issues, problems with testing, problems with Twitter. There are always fires. And if you're not comfortable wearing a fire suit, you shouldn't be an entrepreneur. But if you are, then I think for me, the kind of mantra for entrepreneurship is be comfortable with pain. Because you know that in the end, you can help a whole lot of people. Whatever it is that you're doing, if you're doing it for the right reason, with the right purpose, the right determination that you're a potentially a world changer, and you can't change the world without hurting yourself. And as long as you're willing to do that, and do things for the greater good, you're going to be able to make it no matter what you're trying to do.  MARY: I think that's a great mindset to be in because I think you're going to be more prosperous if you're in the mindset that I'm doing a greater good, rather than I'm going to make money. The money is going to come.  FRED: Yeah, yeah. And I say that all the time too. Don't chase the money, chase your dreams. Make it a reality and as long as you have your dream and be really strategic about how you take that dream and actualize it. When you can actualize your dream, the money will follow. It's as simple as that because doing it the right way, doing the research, understanding what the real need is, and being able to deliver on that need results in capital coming your way. But when you're focused instead on the dollar, you end up being like the Enron's of the world and no matter how big you get the corruption of chasing the dollar can take you down really, really hard.  MARY: And fast. You know a lot of people create business ventures obviously we talked about, that they're not always successful. Is there another piece of information that you're thinking or advice maybe that you're thinking that people need to understand or know that they might not know?  FRED: Oh, yeah, we don't know anything when we start a business, you know? When I talk about that… literally the way that we approach entrepreneurship, nobody would do that in something like sports. Can you imagine if I wanted to hire you as my coach for a sports team, and you're asking me like, right, well, what sport is it? And I tell you, I don't know. Do you have any competitors? I don't have any clue. But I think I'm the only one. And well how big is this sport? I don't know, what are the rules? I don't know. How do you get all of the spectators to root for you? I don't have a clue. Right? But that's how we go into entrepreneurship. We don't know the market. We don't know the market size. We don't know the growth. We don't know the holes in the market that we can exploit. We don't know what those personas really want and how to take them not only as customers but as passionate advocates of a brand. So what I would say to our entrepreneurs or want to be entrepreneurs, you need to do your homework. Think about it. That you're a coach of a sports team. DO you know all the rules? Do you know all the competitors? Do you know how to win? And if you don't know those things, you gotta get them. You know, I have on my website a free resource. It's called the insider checklist. And you can just go to ideapros.com and download it. As I said, it's absolutely free and it gives you seven points, seven highlights of the things you need to consider when you're starting any business. And then on top of that, for the next seven days, you get an email from me, and each day that email will cover one of those seven points and cover it in a lot greater detail and there's an embedded of 20 minute or so video on that subject from me. And so by the end of the seventh day, you'll not only know all those seven points, but you really get in depth knowledge about them. They're a critical foundation for anything that you want to do as an entrepreneur.  MARY: Do you recommend that people do that before they approach you as far as becoming partners with you?  FRED: Yeah, oh, yeah. You know, you need to understand what it's all about. And if somebody wanted to be my partner… Excuse me, that was a lingering allergy cough. But if somebody wants to be my partner, I would definitely suggest going through those things first. And you know, one of the things that we did…Idea Pros ended up becoming a drinking out of a firehose. There was just so much incredible demand. And I only had this one holding solution. But now we have a lot of things that are really inexpensive like I have master classes on purpose-driven entrepreneurship, we have things… for $1,800, we have a program that will take your idea and completely… everything I said about the market research and everything, will completely dissect that idea. Look at all these things you need to be looking at. Give you back a 40-page report on exactly what that market is, how you should exploit it, who your personas are, and how to go out and raise capital and you're going to need to go further up that food chain. So we do have a whole lot of things. If any of your audience wants to reach me or learn more…my executive assistant is not in the room because she always kills me when I say this, but you can write to me directly fred@ideapros.com and I'm happy to kind of steer anybody where they need to go.  MARY: Yeah, and you can check that out on Fred's website as well - ideapros.com. Fred, you've talked about the videos a little bit. Am I mistaken, don't you have a TV show like on YouTube?  FRED: Um, we actually have a TV show coming up. It's not, it's not out there yet. But, I do have over half a million followers on Instagram and I provide advice on personal development entrepreneurship every single day. I encourage you to go there. It's official fred cary, C-A-R-Y. And that is… I put my heart into that. I never have a script, I never have bullet points and never know what the heck I'm going to be saying. I'll just start talking and I'll put it down there but I think you could spend a minute a day on just going and seeing what I'm saying today, it will give you a good foundation to be a better person and be a better leader.  MARY: That's… how important do you think social media is now for companies for startups? FRED: For a startup, well most startups, it's critical. Your persona is represented digitally nowadays. You don't have a real storefront. You have digital storefronts, and everything that you do is measured by what is seen online whether it's your website, whether it's your blog posts, whether it's your LinkedIn or Instagram or Facebook or YouTube channels. Everything you do is what you're being measured by. And so if people look at you… Suppose you're a web development company and you go to your website, your website doesn't look great, or you have that copyright 2021 on there and instead of 2023. You know, these little things, that's how people would look at you in the real world before. And so social media, in the sense that it is addressing your customer base, it's critically important. You always want to have what you believe is your persona. It's the clear representation of your company and your belief system is projected in everything that you do online.  MARY: When you say persona, you're talking about brand?  FRED: Yeah, yeah, your brand. People think your brand is what you write down. Your brand is what people, your customers think of you. And so you can have, you can say your brand is this or that or whatever it is and write it on all the walls in your office and make every employee chant it when they walk in in the morning. But that's not your brand. Your brand is how you're perceived by your public, by your audience, by your customers. That's what your brand is. So that's why it's so important - social media and otherwise, every engagement with your audience. It's really important that what you want your brand to be is projected in such a way that your audience believes that as well.  MARY: Yeah, I just finished ghost-writing a book for a local businessman and so I'm totally stealing this from him.  FRED: Let's tell his name.  MARY: I'm not sure he wants me to, but I'll ask him first. But he says perception is reality. So it's going along with exactly what you're saying that how your audience or your customer base perceives you or the community that you're in perceives you is the reality of the situation.  FRED: Yeah, and you're, you know, no matter what you want that to be, you're never gonna get unanimity. You're never gonna get 100% of people buying into it. I mean, even in what I do, you know, but look at venture capital. Venture capital, 90% of their bets fail.   MARY: Right.  FRED: I'm trying to make my percentages way higher than that. But even so, let's suppose I have a 25% failure rate. That means 25% of my clients, my customers, my partners, probably think Fred is…you know, they don't feel that highly of me because their dreams have not been able to be met. So trying to manage your brand essence is very difficult when you can never make everybody happy. So you really have to make sure that what you're doing affects the most people so that you can curate. A lot of people don't like Apple, but their brand is very, very powerful and their brand… they do that in everything they do. You know they start with their why as much greater speakers than I did a really good review on but they start with their why and everything that they do, you know, at the end is we just happen to sell iPhones and computers, but that's the last part of the statement. They don't lead with that. They lead with the essence of being different or thinking differently, in creating unusual things. And you can see how powerful their brand is because if I told you that, I just heard that tomorrow Apple is releasing its first ever electric toothbrush. I wouldn't have to say another word. Not true at all. But you would know it's going to be sleek. It's going to have Bluetooth, it's going to tell you whether you're brushing right. It's going to crash and break into little pieces as other stuff does. But you're going to know the essence of… what this thing…you have it, you're imagining it in your head because they've done such a great job of creating their brand imagery for you. And that's what you need to strive for.  MARY: Yeah, and that's branded loyalty. Because Apple customers are super loyal.  FRED: I argue they're prisoners. Both of my daughters have Apple and I have Apple stock.  MARY: Well, that's good. I'm an Apple girl all the way. I call myself gadget girl all the time because I have so many gadgets and most of them are Apple. And Apple did not pay me for that little plug there either.  FRED: Nor did they pay me for that toothbrush. If it comes out, you guys are my witnesses.  MARY: If they come up with it, yeah. You heard here first folks. Fred's idea. Fred, what is next for you? And maybe Idea Pros, or maybe you want to separate that into you personally or Idea Pros.   Fred: Well, with Idea Pros, we still have a long journey ahead of us because as I started this company, previously, we only had this kind of flagship product. You know, all in co-founder. And there are a whole lot of entrepreneurs who need help at some level. Once you decide to be an entrepreneur, even if you fail miserably your first time, and you go back to corporate America, you're going to come back out. And so, we want to create this kind of umbrella that really addresses entrepreneurship from the very nucleus all the way through larger companies that need strategic consulting advice. So, they're a lot of programs, a lot of new solutions, that we're building with Idea Pros, and that's gonna keep me busy for a while. We're out raising capital right now and what hopes to be our last round before we think about going public within the next couple of years. But so, that's a big journey, but I think one of the big things for me personally is finding a way to balance my life a little bit. You know, I tell everybody else to do it and I do spend the first hour of the day or more trying to take care of me, working out, mediating, things like that. I'm working 10, 12 hours a day, working on the weekends, and I gotta find a way to calm down and relax a little bit. Maybe make, you know, three months out of the year working out of Italy.   MARY: Oh, that's a great idea. I just went to Malta and I worked from Malta when I was there so I think it's a fabulous idea.  FRED: Yeah, yeah.  MARY: Well, Fred, thank you so much for this great conversation. I've just thoroughly enjoyed it.  FRED: Thank you. I did as well. And I'm looking forward to crossing your path again.  MARY: Yeah absolutely, We need to get you to come speak at Furman.  FRED: I would love to do that. I think if you can educate people early enough…one of our partners, client partners, actually they had double MBAs, from prestigious schools…so she came and decided to work with us and she said the first six months of working with me, she learned more than both of those programs together, so I'm happy to speak to young people and try to let them know what they're getting into and let them know how to deal with the fires ahead.   MARY: Alright, listeners remember if you or someone you know is an entrepreneur or just has an idea that they've been thinking about launching, our Greenville Starts program is a great place to learn what you need to know and to make some of the connections that you're gonna need that can help you make your venture happen. The Fall cohort is full though, I will tell you, but you can get on the list for the Spring cohort and all you have to do is go to the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship website and go, I think it's the very first thing that pops up and put yourself on that list so you can get into that cohort. We've had some fabulous launches from that group. That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember this is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies department here at Furman University. Remember you can catch the podcast two ways now wherever you listen to your podcasts and also we have a brand new YouTube channel where you can watch the podcast. So you can go to YouTube and check that out as well of course, it's just under the Class E Podcast channel. To make sure that you don't miss an episode, make sure that you hit that subscribe button to YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode and most of our episodes are produced by student producers, currently Isabella Martinez is our student producer. So she will have created this podcast for you. We want to thank you for tuning in. I am your host Mary Sturgill. Until next time everybody, dream big.  

Analyzing data can be a daunting task, but what if there was a more usable program to do so? In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we sat down with Spencer Tate ‘24 to discuss his and co-founder, Nemath Ahmed's, data analytics platform, dotflo. Reminiscing on his win at the 2023 Paladin Pitch Competition, Tate shares what he's learned on his entrepreneurial journey and the reality of having opportunity costs in life. Guest: Spencer Tate '24 Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez   Transcript:  MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host, Mary Sturgill. This is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And we are right in the middle of our special series in which we talk to Furman students and recent alumni about their entrepreneurial endeavors. And so I have Spencer Tate with me here today. Spencer, welcome to the show. SPENCER: Thank you. No, it's great to be on a podcast. This is the first time so… MARY: Alright! SPENCER: I'll try my best but I'm excited for the opportunity. MARY: Cool. We're glad to have you. I know you at your young age are a serial entrepreneur right now. You just won the Paladin Pitch competition. Let's talk about your current company dotflo. Tell us about that. SPENCER: Yeah, so right now we're…so Nemath and I…so Nemath Ahmed…he's my co-founder. He's actually in San Jose, California. That's why I have the festive San Francisco bridge behind me so he's out in San Jose right now working at Cisco. And I'm out actually in Chicago working at Ernst and Young. He's doing more AI machine learning and I'm more on the finance side. So yeah, over the past, since the Paladin Pitch… Well first I went out to San Jose for three weeks to work in person with Nemath. During that time, we were able to continue to develop the vision we were, we were able to continue to talk with initial beta users and start those initial relationships with people who are actually going to be able to use our product. And yeah, it's been an exciting time. We're actually about to launch our initial real MVP that is going to go into the hands of four universities who we're talking to right now who are using our product or will be using our product and we're going to go through kind of an iteration mode where we just work with those kind of initial first users and see how we can provide the most value. But going back to the dotflo and what it is and why we started it is so I'm a data analyst and Nemath's a data scientist. And frankly, a lot of companies can't afford to hire a full-time data analyst or a full-time data science team within their organization. That's kind of where the ideas spurred of… kind of leveraging new technology and building out our own novel way to streamline that data science process and make it accessible for teams who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it. So that's really what we've been pushing on over the past few months. And we're getting it to a good stage where we can actually then put it into the hands of those initial universities and I think we're at an exciting time right now.  MARY: Yeah, so I imagine your customer would be maybe universities, small or medium sized businesses. Am I correct in that thinking? SPENCER: Yeah, so, so actually, when we first, when we did the Paladin Pitch we were pretty open to a lot of different verticals. So we were open to retail, manufacturing, food, universities, you name it, but what we found really quickly when we were developing, kind of the technology behind what drives that streamline process, is that it's better 1) to focus on an initial vertical and essentially train the brain within understanding data within that specific industry and even problem statement. So what we're focused on right now is helping advancement and development teams at universities help understand how they can use machine learning, which is basically statistical methods that help with understanding, how to assess the right, the right people who I should look, who I should reach out to, who who might potentially donate to my university. So a lot of… so Furman was the first people who approached us, and they essentially said, “hey, we have a data analyst on our team. However, we're lacking in the data science expertise. This is something that can be really beneficial for us because we're kind of, not that we're guessing but there's a lot of, there's a lot of guessing to be frank…That includes the process of “Who do I reach out to, do I reach out to all 1000 people on my list?” And when we bring in that flow, you can find out the 100, the top 100 people who are going to be most likely to donate or that have the characteristics that will donate a specific amount. So yeah, so we're actually just focused on fundraising teams right now. And building out that validation that we can streamline it within this just initial vertical. Work with different datasets from different universities. Basically train our, our AI essentially to learn the space of advancement, and provide that in house for teams.  MARY: This is amazing, because I could see how you would save money, time and some of the effort that goes into development, right? And chasing leads that aren't necessarily going to be the best leads for a university to get funding. Right? And so I would think that what you guys are doing would help universities streamline that and just be… work more efficiently and that's the goal, I assume. SPENCER: Yeah, definitely. And what we found is that universities will pay 20, 30, $40,000 to send their data out to companies who will then do the machine learning on their own end. And then they'll send the results back to those companies like Furman, for example, and then they'll have the list of the top 100 people to do it. So not only do we want to put this in the hands of a university, like Furman, but we also want this to be a tool where people who are, don't necessarily have those, that analytical background can grow within their role and can leverage this technology and feel empowered and feel like they can really make an impact and feel like they can collaborate with, with their teammates at a whole new level that they just, it was just too big of a barrier to get into before. MARY: Right, right. That's amazing. How are you balancing all this? Because I know you're a full-time student as well. And you're at an internship this summer, which is why we're zooming and, and you know, getting this thing off the ground. That's a lot. SPENCER: Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is that I mean, Nemath and I love just innovating and thinking of ideas and it's really about the journey. It's not necessarily something that is easy. It's time consuming. There's sacrifices that I have to make. Am I going to go out and go to the bars on Friday, Saturday night, or am I going to work on my startup? I'm going to work on my startup, and it's just kind of the opportunity costs at a younger age that, that I have to weigh, but we love it and I think we have to take the small wins into consideration along the way that help continue to build the momentum. Because we're at such an early stage right now where we have great opportunities in front of us. He's at a great tech company. I'm at a great financial institution where we both can learn a lot. And what we're just trying to do right now is just take advantage of those opportunities to learn as much as we can. And if the opportunity comes where we really see a clear, foreseeable path to like let's say raise money to then go full time into dotflo, then, hey, that's gonna be an opportunity we're going to weigh. But at the point we're at right now is, we're just continuing to iterate and ideate on the idea, get that initial feedback, and I think at this time, we can balance both things and do a great job of doing both. Once school comes around, it'll kind of be like Ernst and Young will kind of be my new school because we'll go away for, for that for that year. But yeah, you know, one of the big things that I can think about a lot is opportunity costs, and there's a lot of opportunity costs, especially at a young age. When it comes to, you know, what am I going to focus on? So, to answer your question, we love it.  MARY: Yeah. So this is not your first entrepreneurial adventure…you, gosh, were you a freshman when you did the first Paladin Pitch that you did? SPENCER: Yes. Yeah. MARY: So as a freshman, you created a company. Tell us about the Trash and Dash company. SPENCER: Yeah, so it all started with… I was really bad at taking my trash out, out of my dorm room. So it was like a 5,10 minute walk just to take the trash out. And I thought you know this probably is a need. There's other people who probably are really busy like me who…trash is piling up in the room. And wouldn't it be nice if someone just came by their dorm room and came and picked it up on a scheduled basis? So that's kind of where the company University Trash and Dash came to light. I started that freshman year. Second semester I got two 64 gallon trash bins at a local Lowe's. And yeah, I started. I started growing that.  MARY: So where does that entrepreneurial spirit and just the innovative thinking come from do you think? SPENCER: Oh, man. Well, I think I have a lot to give credit to my parents. They're both really hard workers. So, my mom… she's bounced multiple jobs throughout her life. My dad works long hours. They're just both very driven people. I come from a modest background. So I've really seen them work hard for what we have. And I think that drives me a lot. And then also my grandparents. I would say that I have great grandparents that always told me to just follow my dreams and to never give up. So I think that… It sounds cheesy and cliche, but I mean, it's driven me a lot over the years.  MARY: No, that's awesome because you know, a lot of entrepreneurs, especially young entrepreneurs come from an entrepreneurial family. And sometimes for those of us who don't, it might be a little bit harder to get into that mindset, right? And I think that mindset is so important. So it's such a great thing that you talk about your family giving you that mindset that they've created you to be, you know, an innovative thinker, obviously, since you're doing what you're doing and I mean, who would have thought of, you know, dotflo and helping universities really hone in on development, you know? SPENCER: Sure.  MARY: So when you think about this process that you've gone through with first Trash and Dash and now dotflo, what are some of the things that you've learned that… kind of along the way that might help other young entrepreneurs? SPENCER: Yeah, well, it's actually funny because so yes, University Trash and Dash and dotflo, but there was a few things actually in between that.  MARY: Yeah.  SPENCER: We're not gonna go to the full extent of it, but to be short, there was… I'd tried to start a company that would connect collegiate athletes to mentor elementary and middle school and high schoolers.  MARY: Oh, yeah. I remember you talking about that at one point. Yeah. SPENCER: Yeah. So, so that essentially… I ended up not continuing that one because I was really having a hard time with the business model, but then too, if you're, if you're going to start a technical company, it's really hard to outsource the tech. You really need a co-founder who's, who's technical, who's going to be in it with you, and I didn't really have that. So… and then also, I was, I was younger, and I didn't have as much as experience. I still don't have a lot of experience right now. But yeah, so I ended up stopping that and then I started a group with my friend Tyler. And we basically brought together just driven people who wanted to ideate once a week. So we brought in people from all different universities…started doing that ultimately. We stopped it because it was really interesting what I've learned. You can bring a lot of really smart people together. However, if there's not like a really big meaning or connection with that group of people, it's really hard to motivate them and it's really hard to get something going especially if they can't really see the finish line. I'm someone who like, I can have a more long term outlook on things. It's a little bit easier for me not to see the finish line, but for a lot of people, they want to see the finish line, they want to see, you know, what's incentivizing them to carve out an hour and then to actually do more on their free time to like to dig into the group. So, yeah, to those points, just starting things, I think and I'm just curious. I think one of the biggest, the biggest blessings in my life was when I started that first company. I didn't know what was gonna happen. I literally went to the school library. I made a little flyer. I printed like 100 of them out and then I started talking to people and getting people to sign up. I think like when you're, at least for me, I would say trying to be an entrepreneur, especially if you don't like come from a super entrepreneurial background, you're naive to a lot of things. MARY: You're not alone though. A lot of entrepreneurs aren't business majors, right? They don't know necessarily how the business side of things work. So you're not alone in that. SPENCER: Yeah, so you're naive to a lot of things. And you kind of, at least for me, it's kind of a trial and error. It's how am I going to step into this opportunity and how am I going to learn from it? How am I going to take that to then, to then be successful when I take that next step forward? So yeah, if I learned anything, it's just take that initial step forward and be willing to step into the unknown. And it's not an easy journey. I mean, there was a lot of times where I did feel kind of lonely like I kind of sacrificed, not spending as much time with my friends and then I didn't have as close relationships when I was a freshman and sophomore. Once I like stopped those businesses, I was able to dig into relationships more but I mean, there was an opportunity cost to that. But you know, if you really want something, you can go get it and I believe that with all my heart and that's kind of like why Nemath and I fully believe in the vision behind why we started dotflo and the purpose of it and everything like that. But yeah, I probably can say a lot more lessons, but I'll keep it at that. MARY: Yeah, I think that's a great lesson and what, you know, there's no better time to take those chances, like you were talking about, then when you're young, right? And so that's why whenever I'm in class, and my student has an idea, I'm like, why aren't you doing that? You know? SPENCER: Yeah. No, I think it's, I think it's important to just…to just take a step forward when it's, especially if you haven't started anything before. You have that creativity to have ideas. You're gonna probably fail. The first few ideas are probably not going to work out. And if they do, then that's awesome.  MARY: Right.  SPENCER: But out of all the successful entrepreneurs I've talked to, a lot of them failed first, and a lot of them had… it wasn't easy at all. So I think really quickly I found out that the glamor of, you know, maybe putting on my LinkedIn that I was CEO of Trash and Dash, it goes away really quick because at the end of the day, no one really cares. I'll be completely honest, no one cares. And you kind of find yourself in this place of like, oh, do I really want to do this? And I think that's how you find out whether or not, you know, this is something that you might want to continue to pursue as you continue to grow. MARY: Right. So what's next for dotflo? SPENCER: Yeah, so basically, right now, as I said, we're continuing to iterate on our initial product. It's really exciting because we, at the beginning of last month, we got together. We actually had a call with Furman and the call didn't go great. Our product was buggy. It was kind of rushed. Nemath…so he's more on the tech side. He was traveling to India, because that's where he's from. He is an international student. He's in his master's program. And I admire him a lot, honestly. I mean, he's, he's a very hard worker. And through meeting other, I'm kind of going on a tangent right now, but from meeting people from different cultures, I think it's super important to work with them. Because he brings a completely different perspective from what I bring to the table. But yeah, all that to say, where was I going with that? MARY: I think you just hit on something super important. So when you're starting a company, you need to bring in people who have the talents that you don't have, who have different perspectives than you so that you can look at things in a more full way. Right?  SPENCER: Yeah, yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. So with that, we…where I was going with that, is we kind of were rushed into that initial kind of meeting with Furman. It didn't go great. However, what we did learn is that we needed to focus more on that industry. And that's where we just said, hey, we're not going to be reaching out to 100 other people from retail, manufacturing, maybe food. We're just going to focus on college universities. So we have been talking to different universities. We have demos set up. We're getting data from these universities. And basically, over the next month and a half, we're just really going to work with these universities, continue to build out our product, make it functional for their needs, and by  mid September, you know, our goal is to have paying customers, paying enterprises on the platform as a software, as a service. So it's something where it's in the cloud, you log on to your browser, you don't have to download anything to your computer, and then they can get that seamless value of 1) really understanding their data, but being able to do so in a way where they can grow within their role and to collaborate with each other on the insights they're finding and really put this as a platform where, where they can go to the next level of how they can ultimately find people who are going to donate to the university and do it in a much more effective way than just kind of guessing and sending the 10,000 emails that are going to cost $10,000 compared to the 1000 emails that have much more higher probability that those people are going to respond. So really we're just trying to build that environment right now. It's a journey, like we kind of thought that we were gonna have things a little bit quicker than we did. But it's completely fine. And we're actually staying on track with what we wanted to accomplish over the summer. We wanted to get beta users on the platform. We want to iterate and by the time the semester comes around, we wanted to have paying customers and we're on track for that right now. MARY: Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. So are you one of the entrepreneurs that, or serial entrepreneurs I should say, that keep a notebook? SPENCER: Yeah, so I, I do. I actually do. I love journaling so I do this thing before I go to bed where I'll write the most important thing I did, the summary, how I can be excellent tomorrow, and then what I'm grateful for, and when I… MARY: I love that.  SPENCER: It helps me kind of, helps me reflect on the day, but I can spit out some ideas through there. But yeah, I have ideas all the time. And a lot of them are kind of crazy and something that I love about working with Nemath is that we can just… we feel open and we can shoot down ideas really easily if it's not a good idea. I think like, when you look for someone to work with…because I would say from experience if you're gonna start a company, do it with someone else, at least to start. I don't know. You can do it on your own, but it's better when you do it with someone. Just from experience doing it by myself to doing it with someone else. It's like a relationship and you're working within and you're growing with someone in a sense. But yeah, we've kind of built an environment, a culture where we're both open to sharing ideas and to saying, hey, this is why we don't think this is going to work. And that helps us, it helps us get to the, it's going to help us get to the ultimate finish line. Like I said those little wins is literally like someone responding to an email at this point. There's so many people who don't respond to us, but we just have to keep going so… MARY: Absolutely. SPENCER: Because it's all about momentum. Going out to San Jose and me going out there, it was all part of the momentum. Yeah, it cost almost $3,000 for three weeks for me to be out there. However, it was worth the investment. Because I don't know if we'd be at this point right now if I didn't go out there and I didn't continue to grow the relationship with Nemath because we, we met back in February. So we hadn't known each other that long. We met at a hackathon. It was so random how… MARY: Yeah, I was gonna ask. Wow, yeah.  SPENCER: Yeah, so literally, and this all starts with kind of the why behind just going and doing things. The whole story behind dotflo is actually we were working on a completely different idea for like a month. And then we had this pitch competition at Georgia Tech at the end of the month. Nemath and I met mid February, where we basically were on a hackathon team. And if you don't know what a hackathon is, it's where you have 36 hours to essentially build a product from scratch. And our product was… we built an AI trashcan. If you would put something in front of the bin, it would essentially say this is what bin you should throw it in. Because people…what I found doing Trash and Dash, people are terrible at recycling. MARY: Yes, they are.  SPENCER: But the thing was in Trash and Dash, we were able to reinforce the user's… writing on their can, what they were doing wrong when they put the recycling out and they actually got better over time. So it was that same concept. I won't talk anymore about that. But that then led Nemath and I to really building that relationship and I said, hey, I'm working on this one idea called Data Share. It was a data monetization idea. Blockchain involved it was, it was confusing. And essentially, we found out pretty quick that there were just some things within that, within that idea that were hard to get around. So then when I came home for spring break, I said, you know what? I'm going to go out and I'm going to talk to as many small and medium sized businesses as I can. I'm going to understand their problems. And that's what we did. And then we realized that a lot of these businesses can't afford data analysts, data scientists so we saw kind of a niche within that.  MARY: Right.  SPENCER: That's where this idea of all and so Nemath and I…just to share a little bit more about like the journey that we've gone through so far, we competed at a pitch competition at Georgia Tech. We were one place away from winning $500,000.  MARY: Wow.  SPENCER: Yeah, we were very close, one place away. And ultimately, after that pitch competition, and the guy who, who basically carries it out, he, he sold the company for a lot of money at Georgia Tech, and he basically helps student entrepreneurs and they do this petition once a year. And yeah, after that pitch competition, I think it shows a lot about the passion that Nemath and I have is that we had put our heads down, we got to the drawing board and we said what are we going to, what are we going to have to do to get paying customers on the product and validate this? We went to the library and continued to work. And that's and that's what we did. And then ultimately, that brought us to the Paladin Pitch where I was super grateful to have the opportunity to pitch there and the Hill Institute is a great organization that has provided me a lot of opportunities that I've been really grateful for. So I definitely want to say thank you to them if anyone's watching that's associated with the Hill Institute. Because ultimately, yeah, I don't think I'd be the same entrepreneur that I am right now without some of those opportunities. So, so yeah, and now we're in the summer and continuing to build.  MARY: Yeah, I love this story. This is going to be a great story for your website - how you, how you, and Nemath met, and for just the story of the company and how this was born. Spencer, I just have so much admiration for you and what you're doing and the fact that you're going after your dreams and you're not putting that off. And I hope our listeners… I know they get how intelligent you are and how compassionate and passionate that you are about being an entrepreneur and being innovative and making, making a space because you're doing everything right man. You are, you know, this is I don't even know what episode this is of this podcast, but I've been talking to so many entrepreneurs who are, you know, years ahead of you as far as age goes, but not as far as their entrepreneurial journey goes, right? And you are right on par if not in front of some of those guys in your thinking and I just, I just can't wait to see what you guys do in the future.  SPENCER: Well, like parental advice like this is just one…this is just one perspective. You know, we don't even have any paying customers yet but you know, we're gonna, we're gonna do everything in our power to get paying customers on the platform and really change the way that data science is done. I mean, that's our ultimate vision is to create our own basically AI that can go within different platforms and be able to help 1) software engineers but people who aren't… the people who don't have the skills and data scientists to basically streamline that process and we think it can happen and we're gonna keep pushing forward to make it happen. So I really, really appreciate everything you said. MARY: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think you know, you might not have any paying customers right now, but I think you're gonna be on target for September. And I just wholeheartedly believe in what you guys are doing and I'm, as a professor at Furman, I'm gonna say I'm so proud of you. SPENCER: Well, and I just want to say Furman's been…it's been, it's been a great experience. 1) like my coaches, on the Furman cross country team, I only ran for two years, but I mean, they instilled a lot of great things in me and then also the challenging professors that I've had. Thank you, because it's been challenging. MARY: Yeah, yeah.  SPENCER: And I'm not the student who just has the 4.0 GPA. Who does everything like that, you know, during, yeah, there's opportunity costs for sure. MARY: Exactly. And I love the fact that you talk about them in the way that you talk about them because a lot of times we… In these conversations that I have with people, we kind of omit the opportunity costs and there are choices that you have to make, but you have to kind of - and that's true with anything, not just entrepreneurism - but you just have to kind of weigh your, weigh your options and see what's going to be best for you in the long run. So, Spencer, it was such a pleasure to talk to you today. SPENCER: Yeah, and thank you so much for having me on. It'll be… I don't know if I'm gonna listen to my voice. When I… MARY: You'll listen, you're fine. SPENCER: I'll listen to it. But yeah, it's been, it's been great. And usually I'm on the other side of the lens. Asking people questions. So it's, it's interesting then kind of I guess, share my, my take. So… MARY: It really is and I so enjoyed this conversation and listening to your take, and I know our listeners will too.  SPENCER: Yeah, well, thank you so much.  MARY: Yeah, absolutely.  MARY: That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And by the way, if you are a Furman student and you've listened to this conversation, then you might want to check into the Paladin Pitch competition that Spencer won last year and you could be in his shoes this time next year. Right? Exactly. That does it for us on this episode of the Class E Podcast. Until next time everybody, dream big.    

Our environment is important, which is why being more sustainable is key. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked to Alexa Valdovinos ‘25 about her sustainable instrument reed company, Monte Valle LLC. From winning the 2022 Paladin Pitch competition to now, Valdovinos shares her entrepreneurial journey and plans for her company and discusses how she balances her life as both a student and entrepreneur. Guest: Alexa Valdavinos '25 Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   TRANSCRIPT: MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host Mary Sturgill. This is the podcast that is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And we're right in the middle of our summer series this summer where we talk to current Furman students and recent alumni about their entrepreneurial ventures. And today my special guest is Alexa Valdovinos, who was the winner of the Paladin Pitch Competition not this past year but the year before that and she is the founder of her company Monte Valle LLC. Did I say that correctly?  ALEXA: Yes.  MARY: Okay. Welcome to the show.  ALEXA: Thank you.  MARY: So, Alexa, tell us about Monte Valle and how you came up with the concept for that.  ALEXA: Yeah! So, it all started in high school. So, I have been a musician for eight years. I started off playing the flute and then I expanded into playing saxophone in high school. And so it all started off in my little band room during COVID… 2021, peak COVID. There were probably five kids in my class, so we didn't really do a whole lot.  MARY: Right.  ALEXA: And so I kind of sat there one day and I was like, you know, Mr. Stewart, who was my band director at the time, I wonder if we can make reeds out of something else like they have so much waste. I mean, you use them for like a couple of weeks, and then you just throw them away but there's so much waste with them.  MARY: Right.  ALEXA: And so we got to thinking and he was like, you know, I think you're onto something Alexa, but maybe you should wait until college to really like fully grasp and have more, you know, access to resources. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do it and so I had joined FUSEA (Furman University Student Entrepreneurship Association) my freshman year because I just knew that I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And I remember Matt Reed at the time, who was working with the Hill Institute, he told me, okay, Alexa do you remember that idea that you had with the reeds? Because I pitched it in the fall semester at their little like Big Ideas Competition.  MARY: Right.  ALEXA: And that's when I really like kind of developed it a little bit more. And I was like, I looked at him funny, I was like, yes. And he's like, well, do you want to, you know, pursue it? I'm like, oh, 100% and so that's when, you know, I started working with the Hill Institute and I actually went to Charleston to compete in the SOCON entrepreneurial challenge. And that's when, you know, I had like three days to build the whole pitch deck and develop this whole product idea.  MARY: Wow.  ALEXA: Yeah. So that's when it fully I would say took off.  MARY: Yeah. So, you went down to Charleston before you won our pitch competition here, right? So they were just like here, let's, let's run with this and you're like, “absolutely.”  ALEXA: Yeah. So, what had happened is that they were taking Brooke Dominiak, who was the winner the year before me with To-Go Bros and she was in the profit portion. And they were like, well, we don't have anybody for the nonprofit portion. So, would you want to do it? And so I was like, I mean, a free trip to Charleston, sure. It'll be a good opportunity. So that's when I, you know, it was like, you know, Matt had told me at this event, you know, you only have three days and I was like, oh, okay, so that took long hours of making a pitch deck and, you know, working on everything. I think it was working up until like, one o'clock in the morning the night before.  MARY: Yeah.  ALEXA: So, it was a process for sure.  MARY: Yeah, yeah. So that was…was that the fall and then spring you won the Paladin Pitch Competition?  ALEXA: Yeah, Charleston… I went to Charleston, probably I think the February. That February in the spring and then I competed in Paladin Pitch that March.  MARY: Yeah. Excellent. So what… you've been working on the company for a little over a year now, diligently. And so, what kinds of things have you learned from this process?  ALEXA: I've learned quite a bit. I've learned that you know, there's a lot of different little nitty gritty details in order to start a business. You know, it's not easy to just say I want to start a business and do it.  MARY: I have a business.  ALEXA: Yeah, exactly. You know, like it takes you know, making it LLC approved, going through all the proper permissions, making sure that everything is legal…  MARY: The licenses and all that yeah.  ALEXA: …the licensing, the buying, you know, for my product, in particular, prototyping and researching, and a really important thing that I've learned is that not everything's gonna go how I originally thought it was going to go. I remember, you know, I had this huge vision. Like I wanted everything to be compostable, biodegradable, but Olivia Esquivel, who is the co-founder of Southern Pressed. She was one of the judges when I won and she told me, you know, like, going in the industry of the sustainability organic industry is hard.  MARY: Yeah.  ALEXA: And so not everything is gonna go how you want it to and that was hard for me.  MARY: Right.  ALEXA: And so realizing that you know, it's okay if things don't go the way that your blueprint ideas say it's going to go.  MARY: Yeah. And just because they don't go that way right now, doesn't mean they won't in the future.  ALEXA: Of course, of course.  MARY: So what prompted you to create the sustainable portion of this? Like you could create reeds out of other things, right? But how does the sustainability play into that?  ALEXA: I've always, you know, so both my parents are from Mexico. I've grown up going there since I was really little, but I also grew up in the mountains here. I grew up in North Carolina, about 30 minutes from here.  MARY: Yeah.  ALEXA: So I've just always grown up around, you know, forest and mountains and my parents always taught me, you know, take care of what you have, you know, let's be sustainable, and let's recycle and all that stuff. But it was really during COVID when I had a lot of thinking time and was like, you know, reeds… they produce a lot of waste. And it adds up because I'm just one musician out of millions on this planet who use like boxes of reeds over weeks of time, and each of those produce single use plastic, single use, you know, waste, and that's what really got me was like there needs to be change because I want to have a future. I want my kids one day to have a future and growing up in the mountains and if you know, we don't do something about it…  MARY: You're gonna lose them.  ALEXA: Yeah, we're going to lose them. So that was my biggest I would say motivation.  MARY: So, you've been prototyping. How's that going? And what's going on with it?  ALEXA: Yeah, so right now we are… I'm working with my old high school. And right now they have a reed machine, which is what helps create the reeds itself.  MARY: Yeah.  ALEXA: So right now they're gonna prototype those, prototypes for the material, use the machine, see how that's working… I'm also working with the middle school over there as well, to kind of do some researching with some 3D printing as well. So it's, it's going, you know, it was definitely a long process to figure out, you know, what we need, what we don't need, sourcing the material because that was something that was really important to me…  MARY: Yeah.  ALEXA: …was making sure that I source well.  MARY: So what are you… what is the material? What are you making them out of? Because I know originally in your pitch, and this is maybe how something might have changed is that bamboo grows really quickly. Let's do bamboo. It's a renewable source.  ALEXA: Yes, that's what we're hoping to use right now. We're also kind of just for the prototyping just to make sure that all the machines work and stuff, we're using cane but I'm also using mostly bamboo, which is what I originally had wanted to and what I told in my pitch.  MARY: Yeah, yeah. Oh, excellent. Excellent. So you're just setting all that up to be able to do the bamboo and then are you working with bamboo farmers? I mean, are there bamboo farmers?  ALEXA: Well, I'm working with…I worked with a small business right now to kind of start sourcing. I'm hoping that maybe in the future, I can work with bamboo farmers. I can work with the Veterans Healing Farm up in Hendersonville, North Carolina.  MARY: Oh, yeah. Yeah.  ALEXA: They grow bamboo on their farm and it's, you know, it's a nonprofit organization.  MARY: Love that, that partnership with the nonprofit and yeah, they're doing great things up there. That's awesome. Because I don't know of any bamboo farmers.  ALEXA: I don't either. I just know people who always tell me to like Alexa like can you come, you know, like I have bamboo all in my backyard.  MARY: Can you come get it?  ALEXA: Yeah.  MARY: You'll be having everybody come, come ask you to do that. Here I have some bamboo for you. What do you think you've learned through this process that you were just like, wow, I'm so glad I learned that early on?  ALEXA: I would say it's what Olivia Esquivel told me is that it's okay if you compromise. You have to pick and choose your battles, especially with sustainability and businesses because you know, it's not cheap to start a business either. And especially, you know, if you want to get it off the ground you can't, you know, and you…specifically buying organically, it's hard. It's expensive.  MARY: Let's talk about this…packaging is one of the most not sustainable issues with the reeds, right? And so how are you meeting that problem?  ALEXA: Yeah, I'm also sourcing more sustainably. I'm hoping to use in the future some sort of like beeswax that will hopefully control the humidity and moisture because that's a really big thing…  MARY: Yeah.  ALEXA: …in reeds that, you know, in transit, they're very fragile. I'm hoping to also work with Bubble Paper. It's a company that makes basically bubble wrap but it makes it out of cardboard and paper so I'm just trying to source and make it more sustainable more…not as like wasteful and reusable. Perhaps. Yeah.  MARY: And that makes sense because…and then you have to do some testing I would imagine to make sure that that moisture doesn't get in in transit.  ALEXA: Yeah, that's what we're hoping to do through this whole process with my high school throughout the summer. It's just once we test the reeds, test all the other material as well.  MARY: So, what advice would you have for other students who have an idea… because you very well could have sat back and said, oh, that's a great idea, but never done anything about it, right? And I love the fact that you're reaching back to your high school and they're helping you with it to get those high school students involved in this because I think that will probably influence the future entrepreneurs even more than you know, right? What advice would you give to other potential entrepreneurs who might have an idea but haven't acted on it yet?  ALEXA: I would say the biggest piece of advice I would give is take baby steps. You know, I have to do that a lot as a college student.  MARY: I started to say, yeah.  ALEXA: Yeah. As a college student, I don't have all the time in the world and you know, I'm involved in a lot and so knowing that it's okay, like it's okay to think…like it's gonna take time. It's gonna take time, but don't lose sight of your goal. Yeah, I know that there were definitely times… oh sorry.  MARY: No, keep going.  ALEXA: There were definitely times where I just got so caught up in college life that I was just like, oh my gosh, am I really gonna be able to do this? I've never done this before. You know, I'm a first gen college student like I don't… I can't even tackle that. Like, am I gonna be able to do this? But just remembering that, you know, you have an idea, and sticking to those goals and knowing that baby steps are okay, is the biggest piece of advice.   MARY: Yeah, that was gonna be my next question. How in the world are you balancing this because aren't you president of FUSEA as well?  ALEXA: Not this year.  MARY: You were last year.  ALEXA: I was the VP of marketing.  MARY: That's a lot, right? So how are you balancing all that?  ALEXA: Well, yeah, taking baby steps. Just like taking the time that I can. Like last year, last semester, I would focus on my school, but then take the time that I did, to just work on pitch decks, work on emails, doing that… just taking a little bit, increments of time.  MARY: Yeah.  ALEXA: And just working on it little by little. And in the end, it'll add up.  MARY: Yeah, that's true.  ALEXA: Also focusing like my mental health, making sure that I'm doing that and finding a good balance.  MARY: The… you know what I do? I work in Pomodoro's, which I think I've talked about this before on the podcast. Because you do have to compartmentalize things like that when you're having all these balls in the air, right? And so, I work for 25 minutes on this project, and then 25 minutes on this project and 25 minutes on this project, and I get up between those projects, or whatever it is that I'm working on. And you know, go get some water, go have a quick chat with somebody or something like that. And then it refreshes my brain a little bit to sit right back down and get right back into it. So, those 25 minutes that I'm spending on that particular thing are really intentional and really focused on that thing, right? And so, I'm not thinking about anything else while I'm in that 25-minute time period. That's helpful and I love the fact that you're pretty much doing that at this young age. It took me a long time to figure that out.  ALEXA: It took me a long time too.  MARY: So, what's next?  ALEXA: So, after this… after I prototype all of my materials, do the proper research, I'm hoping that I can start selling, you know, get my online business going and hoping to distribute to high schools. That's what I'm hoping to do as well… sell directly to high schools and middle schools in the area and up in North Carolina. That's where I'm hoping to get my start because you know, that's where I grew up.  MARY: Right.  ALEXA: And so that would be the next step to just getting the prototyping done, making sure that it's good to go and then selling.  MARY: This is… so this is gonna be totally online, right? And people from all over the world could find you, right? You just have to…  ALEXA: Yeah.  MARY: …help them find you a little bit.  ALEXA: Yeah.  MARY: Yeah. So, I love that because, I mean, I'm thinking of so many marketing ideas, which I'm sure you have a plan or are coming up with a plan for how to go about doing that. I love that. So, you did Greenville Starts. Tell me about that experience as a college student too because like you needed one more thing on your plate. Greenville Starts is a great program that helps entrepreneurs kind of launch their business no matter where they are in their business, right? And take it to the next level, but it is time-consuming. You are meeting you know, every week, right? So tell us how Greenville Starts kind of help you.   ALEXA: Oh my gosh, it was an amazing opportunity. They teach you just so many amazing things from that program. I learned leaps and bounds. You know, so many so much information that I wouldn't have learned on my own. You know, it definitely was like, you know, time… time…I had to learn time management a lot with that because every week I had to come down here, make sure I take an hour of my day, then come back, make sure I get everything done. But it was… all it was worth it.  MARY: Yeah.  ALEXA: I could say that. You know, I get to learn from so many other people as well.  MARY: Experts in their field.  ALEXA: Yes. And see so many different markets, see so many different levels. There's so many people there who you know, have a business already or are wanting to start one and it was all wonderful just to see all the different walks of life and all the different speakers that they would have come in helped so so much.  MARY: Yeah. What is the one big takeaway that you took away from them?  ALEXA: Oh, that's hard.  MARY: Because there's so many, I know.  ALEXA: There's so many. The biggest takeaway I got is planning…planning, planning, planning. You have to plan out everything beforehand. You have to plan out what your budget is going to be. You have to plan out where you want to distribute. You have to plan out what your pitch is, what your market is, and what your point of sales is going to be. Planning, planning, planning is what I learned the most.  MARY: So, when you… are you… how are you raising money? I mean, we know you won the pitch competition and so that's helped some.  ALEXA: Yeah, that's kind of where I'm starting right now. And I'm just hoping to kind of base everything off of my winnings from Paladin Pitch and then hopefully in the future if I do get it off the ground, that's where I'm hoping to..  MARY: When you get off the ground.  ALEXA: Well, yes. When I get it off. Not if…when.  MARY: Yeah. So, the sales then will hopefully maintain you.  ALEXA: Yes, that's what I'm hoping. MARY: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think you have found a really important niche too, because we don't really think about sustainability in the music industry at all. And I think you can come and broaden even beyond the reeds. Have you thought about that at all?  ALEXA: Oh, definitely. I have also started prototyping guitar picks. They're made by a business named Steve Clayton. They've made guitar picks for the Beach Boys…for all these big names. And they have a line of guitar picks that are compostable…  MARY: Oh, I love that.  ALEXA: You just throw them in the ground, they're good to go. So I've been prototyping that. I'm hoping to make drumsticks in the future. I'm definitely hoping to expand because the music industry is, I mean, probably one of the most well established, if not the most established industry.  MARY: Yeah.  ALEXA: I mean it's been around for centuries, centuries. And there hasn't really been a huge change. You know, people find something that they like and they stick with it.  MARY: Right.  ALEXA: And they like consistency. So…  MARY: Yeah. And that may be your biggest barrier…is getting people to try the new thing. ALEXA: Yeah.  MARY: The new reed because they're so used to what they're used to.  ALEXA: Yeah, that's why I'm hoping to start in the school system because I know that…  MARY: Start them young.  ALEXA: Start them young. Show them that they… that they're good.  MARY: Yeah.  ALEXA: And they're gonna keep sticking with them throughout their whole career.  MARY: Absolutely. Absolutely. I love the way that you think Alexa.  ALEXA: Aw, thank you.  MARY: Thank you so much for coming on.  ALEXA: Aw, thank you so much for having me.  MARY: All right. That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember, if you or someone you know is an entrepreneur, check out the Greenville Starts program. Just go to the Furman website, the Hill Institute's website, and you'll see information there about it. If the fall cohort is full, then of course, we're starting a spring cohort. So, put your name on that list to get one of those cohorts and learn from the experts no matter where you are in your business. Also, if you're a student like Alexa, and you have an idea, don't sit on your laurels, put the idea together and join the Big Ideas Competition coming up in the fall. And then of course in the spring, the Paladin Pitch competition as well because what we do is we have you pitch for the big ideas and then each of those winners go into the big spring pitch. So, you could get some money like Alexa to launch your big idea. Listeners, thank you for tuning in today. You can watch us on YouTube. If you have not done that, jump on over to our YouTube channel. And of course, you can listen to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies department here at Furman University. This particular episode was produced by our student producer Isabella Martinez. Until next time everybody, dream big.  

Change can be scary, but it can also be good. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked to Nathaniel Desantis ‘19 about how his entrepreneurial path has evolved from the multimedia company, Amalfi Media, to now Podcast Studio X. Desantis shares how the growth of his personal podcast company is now helping others tell their stories. We discuss how failure can be rewarding, and how it's important to always be willing to learn. Guest: Nathaniel DeSantis '19 - Owner Podcast Studio X  Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   Transcript:  MARY: Hi, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host, Mary Sturgill. This is the podcast that is created through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University and we are right in the middle of a very special kind of summer season if you will, of the Class E Podcast where we're having current students and not so recent graduates. Well, some recent graduates… four years ago, is that right? Yeah, four years ago, so recent graduates who are entrepreneurs in their own right, and so our special guest today is Nathaniel DeSantis. Nathaniel, welcome back.  NATHANIEL: Thank you for having me back on again.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: For those of you who don't know, this is my second time on the podcast.  MARY: Yeah, so I had Nathaniel on… what, two years ago? Right when you started.  NATHANIEL: It was like a year and a half, two years ago.  MARY: Yeah, so at that time you were running Amalfi Media…  NATHANIEL: Correct.  MARY: And Amalfi Media has gone through several iterations since our conversation and so I'm excited to kind of catch up with you and learn about the growth of what's happened since then. So, tell everyone… go watch… one go watch or listen actually, it's listen to at that point because we didn't have our YouTube channel yet. So, go listen to that podcast with Nathaniel about Amalfi Media because I want you to see how much his company's grown from then to now. It's crazy.  NATHANIEL:  It's changed a lot.  MARY: And in a pandemic.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, well that was probably part of it.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: It truly has changed.  MARY: So give everyone a brief description of what the first iteration was.  NATHANIEL: Like Amalfi Media? Okay so Amalfi Media was just a digital media company. The whole point was we would make our own podcasts and it was primarily podcasts. I think we had one YouTube channel.  MARY: Yeah, your mom had a YouTube channel.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. We would make our own content and put it out there and the goal was to monetize this podcast. So that was like the one of the company. And it was going pretty well. But as I think I discussed on the previous episode I was on, I quit my manufacturing job to do that.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: And it got to a point where I was like, okay, I need to make money.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: I need to survive.  MARY: Like everybody thought you were crazy when you said I'm leaving this job after a year and I'm starting this company.  NATHANIEL: Yeah.  MARY: Right?  NATHANIEL: And like the shows that we were producing were growing very well. But the writing was on the wall that it would take maybe two, three years for it to get to a point where I could sustain myself and all the hosts that were doing the shows, which kind of led to V2 of the company which is it fine to go into that now?  MARY: Yeah, absolutely.  NATHANIEL: So V2 was the Greenville Podcast Company because what happened was at the end of Amalfi Media I shut it… I closed Amalfi Media LLC so legally it's no longer an entity anymore. I asked what did I do well, and what did I not do well, and we would always get compliments on our production work. People would always say like that sounds really professional.  MARY: You guys have great productions. And listen to his voice everybody. Oh my goodness okay.  NATHANIEL: Good genetics, I guess. So the production value is really good and people would always compliment us on that. So I said, well, we'll work on just being a production company specifically focused on podcasts. And again, like I said, I focused on what I did wrong as well. And a lot of it was I think, when new entrepreneurs, especially young ones, because I was like 21, 22 when I started. No 22, 23 when I started, young entrepreneurs, I think they have this idea like oh, like it's just gonna like be huge, and it's gonna blow up and it's gonna be…  MARY: Immediately.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, exactly. It's gonna be this huge thing. So I took a step back and I didn't focus on like names or anything. I said, we'll just call it the Greenville Podcast Company to start with and we'll produce and let's just see, let's see if we get any clients. Eventually, we did get clients so that turned into us producing content, specifically podcasts for nonprofits, like Greater Good Greenville is one really good example. They have a podcast called Simple Civics Greenville County, but then we do things for larger corporations like Johnson and Johnson. So we're really hitting kind of like the companies and using it as PR and marketing for them. And it got to a point where a month ago… so this is like fresh…we decided to change it to Podcast Studio X because…  MARY: Yeah. And how did that change come about?  NATHANIEL: So we kind of again, I started through Greenville Podcast Company right after Amalfi Media shut down and I said I'm not gonna go in thinking this is going to be huge.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: I'm just gonna keep it local to start with and it has grown really well. And the problem we're running into is that people outside of Greenville are like, why would I use the Greenville Podcast Company?  MARY: Oh, right.  NATHANIEL: And a big emphasis of ours is on remote production. So we only have two clients that we actually go to in their office. The rest are remote, still make it sound really good, still really good quality. So, you know, we took a look. And we said, what do we want to name the company so that people can look at it in California.  MARY: From anywhere. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. They can look in Europe and be like, wow, well, they just do podcasts. And this is actually the reason is Podcast Studio X is very specific because we… Google has a really cool ad tool where you can do like this keyword search, and you can see what keywords are people Googling and so my sister and I, we made a list of like 500 keywords related to podcast production be it remote podcast production or podcast studio or this that the other, right? Anything with podcasts and production work, we put them into Google and we saw what performed the best with search and podcast studio was the highest ranking one so it got something like 20,000 monthly searches for just podcast studio, whereas podcast production only got like 100 a month.   MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: So we're like okay, well, let's do it based on search.  MARY: That's smart. Does that come from your sister? She's this marketing guru.  NATHANIEL: I wish. This is a lesson learned from the Amalfi Media days and some advice from some really good mentors that I met along the way. That's actually what we do for our clients when it comes to their show titles. And so we looked through we're like well, let's just do it with this as well…the company name like if it works for the podcast, it will work for the company name. And so my sister and I, this is where my sister comes in, her and I are brainstorming names and we're like, okay, it has to have podcast studio in it, right? And she's like, she texts me Podcast Studio X and she meant that as like a placeholder, but as in like, fill in the blank. Again, like what are we gonna put it in for the X and I just saw and I was like, I love it. It's sick. Great idea. You got it. You got the company name.  MARY: Well and that fits because you create podcasts for all these different companies.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. It just happened to work really well. And it's one of those things. So you know, we looked for the domain and it was there and it's like, great, this is perfect. Now we don't have to worry about it for a long time. So that's the long story of how we went from Amalfi Media…  MARY: The evolution.  NATHANIEL: …to Greenville to Podcast Studio X.  MARY: Well, and the reason I wanted you to talk about that was so many entrepreneurs… what their initial idea is not how it ends, right?  NATHANIEL: Yeah.  MARY: And so you had this initial idea with Amalfi Media and then you saw the potential and the need for a podcast production company because so many people are wanting to get into podcasts, but they don't have the skills, right?  NATHANIEL: Exactly.  MARY: They don't know what equipment they need or you know all of this stuff or where they should host or anything like that. So you're filling that niche for them. And I think that's great. So how do you get your clients?  NATHANIEL: So a few ways. First of all, we actually just hired our first salesman, salesperson I should say. So he does a lot of cold calling and cold email outreach. We have a target audience that is businesses and nonprofits because we found that podcasts are great PR marketing tools. We thought personally and it's a little biased… I think it should be around 70% of what you do for marketing. The other… you know the rest of the percentage, you do whatever you want with that. But I think 70% of your marketing and PR should be podcasts.  MARY: Because if you look at the number of podcast listeners in the United States, but also around the world, it's not going… it's seen a seven-year… huge growth in the past seven years and each year keeps growing and growing.  NATHANIEL: Yeah. And also the way that we look at podcasts and it's our job to try to explain this to potential clients is that you can repurpose it in so many ways. So you're doing a video podcast. We're on video. Your YouTube's covered, you don't have to worry about YouTube anymore. Using that video, you can now chop that into clips and now your Instagram, your Tik Tok, your Twitter, your YouTube shorts, your Facebook, it's all covered. Turn these episodes into transcripts. Now your blog strategy's covered and then you have them on the audio platforms as well. So that's something we really have to hammer home to potential clients. This is used for a lot of different things. It's… a lot of people think of a podcast as just talking, it's not. You can repurpose that. So it's our job to help potential clients understand that.  MARY: And that's efficiency, right? Because you're sitting down for maybe 30, maybe 45 minute podcast and you have that much content that.. yes, you're gonna produce it as a podcast in its entirety, but you also have that content that you could chop out and use for other things depending on what their marketing that week, right?  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. So to go back to your question, how do we find clients? Part of its referrals. So obviously we have a new salesperson but part of it is… we work with people and they have guests come on and then their guests say my company wants a podcast too. We really enjoyed working with Podcast Studio X, you guys were super professional. We want you. Part of it is connections, honestly. So I think Furman is a great example of like good connections. You just happen… you meet people in your life at Furman who may or may not become lifelong friends, but they're still connections that you'll have and when their company or their boss wants a podcast, they're more likely to think of you, right? That's helped with a few clients that we've gotten as well. Other times before we had a salesperson, I would just pick up the phone, I would call people. I'd say hey, does your company want a podcast? Just hope and pray that they would say yes. Then we also do this thing for all of our clients where if they say at the end of an episode, this was produced by Podcast Studio X and have that on their shows, they get a discount. And they also…we have a referral system that's new where they'll get a whole month of production for free if they do refer us to someone else. MARY: Oh nice.  NATHANIEL: So lots of avenues. Also with sales, we started doing more inbound marketing so we're pushing out five blogs a week.  MARY: Yeah, wow.  NATHANIEL: That's just good quality content that we're putting on our website, hoping that it draws people in and best case scenario we get a client, worst case they learned something valuable about podcasting.  MARY: Yeah, for sure. So, you are… this is almost a subscription-type service, is it not?  NATHANIEL: Yeah, it absolutely is for our clients. Yeah. We have yearly contracts with them. They do one episode every week or an episode every other week that we will produce for them. And it starts with a kickoff and training period where we kind of go into the logistics stuff like cover art. No one really thinks about that.  MARY: So do you help… Do you help them not only with the actual podcast and the mechanics of the podcast itself, but with some of the marketing of it as well?  NATHANIEL: Yeah, so they'll get clips with every episode.  MARY: So it's full service.  NATHANIEL: Our motto and our slogan is, “You talk, we do the rest,” because that's really what it is.  MARY: Nice.  NATHANIEL: And when we do those sales calls, that's what we try to explain to those potential clients. We have two focuses…you have a professional brand, your podcast needs to reflect that.  MARY: Right.   NATHANIEL: Because you know… have you ever heard those podcasts where it's like, wow, this is a big company, why does it sound so bad?  MARY: Right. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: Right. You worked hard building your brand like your podcast should sound as good as your brand does.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, so that's one thing. And then the second emphasis we always tell them is simplicity. So we want to make it super easy. And the example I always use with potential clients is we have some travel agents who are clients and they'll record on a cruise. We make it that easy for them that they can take their equipment… it's very mobile, very light, very easy to do. And they'll record on a cruise or when they're flying to Dublin like we've so many opportunities to make it easy, but still professional for them to do.  MARY: Yeah, I love that.  NATHANIEL: And yeah, so it really is full service. We have different packages so it kind of depends. And then we have add ons as well that they can subscribe to like they might only want a transcript with the basic package as well or they might want social media management for two channels so kind of depends. Everyone's a little bit different. But yeah, it's really full service for them.  MARY: That's amazing. I think that's… I think you're filling a niche that not a lot of people even knew existed, maybe because everybody thinks everybody just grabs a microphone and starts talking.  NATHANIEL: It sounds easy to do.  MARY: It does.  NATHANIEL: Everyone thinks how hard can it be to start a podcast until you actually look into it and you're like, oh, actually a lot of steps involved to it. There are two of you doing this one right now.  MARY: And we're really shorthanded. We really… I mean we have if you're in the studio, then you would see that we have three cameras right now. And we have the… basically the audio board that Isabella, our producer, is recording everything into so she's running all of that for us right now to make sure that we have the best quality possible.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. And so there are a lot of steps that go into it. And they're a lot of things that I… you just don't think of unless you do podcasts daily. So like one thing that I'll share with the world here, one of our secrets, so we call it maximizing milliseconds or the millisecond framework just depending on who we're talking to. So everything for us, like cover art, people need to be able to look at it and immediately understand this is what your podcast is about. And the second thing is they need to understand that it's a very professionally done podcast based on the cover art because they have milliseconds to decide based on that… am I gonna listen to the episode? So it goes… the flow is the cover art, if they liked that, in that millisecond, they'll go on to look at the episode title. If they like that, they'll look at the episode description. If they like that, they'll hit play, and that's what we're trying to maximize for is hitting play and things like that, that if you don't do it daily, you don't think about how do I maximize that millisecond with a title and description for a podcast or with the cover art. So there's a lot that goes into it.   MARY: And it's super interesting. I mean, we're in the podcast business so of course, it's interesting to us, but I think that any business I think could take a podcast and that's kind of like a microcosm look at how they market themselves, right? Do you get what I'm saying? Because if you could look at this podcast, this artwork, this title, right? This kind of promo paragraph that we put with all of our podcasts, and did that lead this many people to actually listen to the podcast? How long did they listen to the podcast? And that lets you know whether you're being effective or not?  NATHANIEL: Exactly.  MARY: Right? I mean, the numbers are right there, right? Yeah. Yeah. So how many… I mean, this is time…it's time consuming to produce a podcast and do all the marketing. I know you have your sister working with the marketing. She's an expert in that area. You're the expert podcaster. And then you just hired a salesperson, is it still just the three of you or are you…?  NATHANIEL: We also have an intern from Furman.  MARY: Oh yeah.  NATHANIEL: And then we have another intern as well. So the Furman intern, she does marketing, so she's helping out with that. And then the other intern just graduated from high school I was…I mentored him during a senior project he had to do. And at the end of his year after he graduated, I was like, well, do you want an internship? And so he's doing the production side of things. Besides that, yeah, that's kind of the whole team is like the five… five or six of us.  MARY: You guys are busy.  NATHANIEL: Yeah.  MARY: Yeah. So what is your vision for the company now that you're at this point of it?  NATHANIEL: Right. That's a really good question. So I know sales wise, our vision is to get at least six more clients within the next four months. We'd really like to bring that up.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: …which we think is very doable. I know our sales guy already has like five calls booked for next week. So, will those five calls all turn into sales? I don't think so. I think maybe one. Exactly.  MARY: If we look at the normal percentages.  NATHANIEL: It's a numbers game.  MARY: It is. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: So we would like sales wise to get six more. And at that point, we would bring on… I don't know, I don't know if it's a full-time producer, but in some capacity and other producers to help with that workload.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: We really are working on kind of standardizing business, because this is something that you don't really learn unless you get into the weeds of being an entrepreneur, but if you want your business to grow, you have to be able to do it without you.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: I'm not saying I want to one day depart from my company, let it just run on its own.  MARY: But at some point, you have to step away for a vacation or something.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. You need to be able to take two weeks off. The company's not gonna burn down. So we're lucky we're at a point where we're having a steady flow of income. We have a good set of clients. We have more that we think will come on. And before we get too large, we kind of want to standardize business so that it can operate without us and so that when we do need to expand, we're not caught off guard.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: So a lot of right now is like we just hope that we can work under like standard operating procedures and training targets that we're building out. But I mean, ultimately long term, it's a really good question. I don't know if I have a specific answer.  MARY: I mean, I can see the exponential growth on this because mostly, this is a great, like we've said, a great marketing tool for companies and for nonprofits and it's an easy one for nonprofits to get into because it is lower cost than other ways of marketing, right? And you have the potential to reach so many more people as well than if you were just you know, get a PSA spot on the local news. NATHANIEL: And then you can do it from your couch if you wanted to.  MARY: Exactly.  NATHANIEL: So that makes it easy. I would say long term… I think we want to branch out with… still within the podcast industry, but we kind of have our own network built in now, right? The more podcast clients that we get, the more attractive we are to advertisers.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: And we can bundle all of our podcasts together and offer those hosts advertising opportunities. So I know that's something we want to get into. Obviously getting more clients and just kind of expanding the company… getting more… I know it'd be great if we could get like 100 clients one day, and produce 100 podcasts. And I do think there's part of our strategy that does involve doing some original content again, so throwback to like Amalfi Media.  MARY: Right. Amalfi. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: So doing some of our own podcasts Studio X branded content with the purpose of attracting potential clients as a sales strategy. That doesn't mean they're going to be really gimmicky and like here's why you need a podcast but actually really good content, but just produced by Podcast Studio X. So then people can look it up and be like, oh, like they made that podcast. Yes. Yeah. Cool. Okay, well, maybe they'll make my podcast.  MARY: I will tell you a friend of mine, who is a reporter for Forbes, has a book out there called the one person…one person company. One million dollar one person companies, something like that. I'm probably butchering that title. But you get the gist. And every single one of them is educational companies, online education companies.  NATHANIEL: Really? Interesting.  MARY: Yeah, so that's kind of the arm that you're talking about there. That kind of educational kind of arm of this is how you could be doing this.  NATHANIEL: Yeah exactly. That's really fascinating.  MARY: Yeah. Yeah. It's super interesting. And it's a subscription-based type of thing. That's why I asked the subscription based thing question because subscription…if it's subscription-based, you don't have to worry about necessarily reselling until the end of the year. And then it's also kind of automatic as well, right? So for instance, my yoga guru has… we pay $25 a month, and I figured out what he's making based on all of us who… and I did it conservatively, to be a part of his academy, right? And all of these are online classes and whatnot, and it's ridiculous like what he's doing it from and he just tapes his normal yoga classes in the town where he is and then gives talks and things like that. And then by paying that membership fee, then we get, you know, access to all of that, and it's a smart way to go. So smart when you're doing things like this.   NATHANIEL: Yeah, unfortunately, for what we do is very specialized. So…  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: …we can't charge $25 for it.  MARY: No. Exactly. Yeah. This is… I'm talking $25 a month and then you get access to free classes. This is not like that at all. Yeah.   NATHANIEL: But no subscriptions definitely…  MARY: That's like a gym membership, right?  NATHANIEL: Yeah. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs like need to find ways to make that revenue recurring.  MARY: Exactly.  NATHANIEL: Because otherwise, like if you sell something for just 25 bucks, you're always chasing that next client.  MARY: Exactly.  NATHANIEL: And part of it is we should always chase our next client. So we're not going to stop if we get to like 20.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: But you know, you need to make sure that you have income coming in, you have revenue coming in. And finding out your pricing is super difficult too like figuring that out is so challenging. It took us a long time to figure out what are our prices. Yeah, we were facing some consequences because of that.  MARY: Right. If you're…and that's a thing that I think creatives and you are creative, sometimes have a hard time pricing ourselves appropriately.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. Yeah. I always advise people, to go higher. Go higher than what you expect, whatever the number is, in your mind, triple or quadruple it. And the framework that we used when we were figuring out our new pricing… and we have three different tiers, the lowest starting at 2990 seconds at 4990 and then 16,990, something like that, what we did was we imagined the company has reached its full potential, right? We have 100 clients, what are all the processes that need to be filled out? What are all the key members, the employees that we need? And then the price is based on that. So we might not be there right now but if we do get to that point, right, we don't want to be caught behind because we were pricing too low in the past. And we've actually found that it resonates better with the clients that we have, the new pricing because I think there's a psychological component where you're paying so much that's like, well, you know, I'm getting my money's worth and you are with us. That's the thing. It's not like tricky.   MARY: And here's the thing, the numbers show, right? The numbers are going to show what… whether that's worth it or not. Right and so yeah, it's not I'm throwing this money at this, you know, wild marketing scheme, and I have no way to measure whether it's working or not, right? You do with podcasting for sure. What's been the most rewarding part of starting this company or going through this iteration?  NATHANIEL: The most rewarding part. That is a great question. I find it very rewarding to do things in the local community. So we have a lot of nonprofits from Greenville that we work with.  MARY: Yeah, I love that.  NATHANIEL: That is really cool to see the impact and one of our nonprofits about local civics like the podcast that they make about local civics…not many people get like too jazzed when you hear…  MARY: The word civics.  NATHANIEL: Yeah exactly. That's not too enthusiastic a genre. Yet, we've reached 70,000 people. I think we just surpassed that the other day.  MARY: Yeah.  NATHANIEL: And that's really cool.  MARY: That's amazing. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: To know people are having an impact from a local civics podcast that brings elected officials on and local leaders, things like that. So having an impact in Greenville, because I've lived here 18 years now, has been really cool. I always wanted to be involved in Greenville somehow.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: So to do that is awesome. It's very rewarding to meet all these cool people we interview also. That's something I mean, you have like let's say we're at like seven clients and they each do a podcast a week. That's a lot of people you're meeting every week.  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: They're all guest based podcasts. That's a lot of people. Some of them are very cool people. Some are…very interesting people.  MARY: Some are like trying to pull teeth, trying to pull information out. But yeah.  NATHANIEL: And I would say the failure aspect has been very rewarding because it's… no one likes to fail.  MARY: Oh, it makes you better at your job.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. If you can learn from your failure though, that's really cool. I''ll be the first one that I fail a lot. I still fail regularly.  MARY: We all do. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: Exactly. And the sooner you can learn from your failure. Like what I was saying when I switched from Amalfi Media to the Greenville Podcast Company and then Podcast Studio X, the sooner you can learn from that I mean, the better you will be…your business will be. I found a lot of rewards in the failure. And also just you know, the fact that we're actually bringing money in has been very rewarding. You know, a business model that works like it's something that sounds really silly, but it's very rewarding. The company that's actually doing things and hiring people and bringing interns in and expanding.  MARY: Yeah, and I… listeners, I hope you and those of you watching on YouTube, I hope you get that from this conversation is that I think you're such a good representation of some of what entrepreneurs go through sometimes is, you know, you have this idea for this company, and then you pivot based on what you're what you're learning, what you're discovering, and you keep pivoting until you come to the iteration that actually, you know, begins to make you money and begins to be, you know, profitable and that's where you are right now.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, and I think a lot of people quit early.  MARY: I think they do too.  NATHANIEL: A lot of people quit at that Amalfi Media phase. You hit your first failure and say well, I guess I am a failure of an entrepreneur. If you look at… sure I think a lot of people would love to be Steve Jobs or Zuckerburg or  Bill Gates where your first thing is going to be a hit. But if you look at I think the founder of Starbucks is a great example…I can't remember his name… it took him like 10 times to be successful. Ten times of failing and trying and failing and trying until he got something that worked. You have to be willing to do that ten times. Maybe still even failing that tenth time.  MARY: Yeah. And still getting the naysayers on board. I think of Sara Blakely, with Spanx, and all of the people who told her there's no room in this business for this and of course, they were men and she's like, no, I swear there is, right? I'm a woman. We need these.  NATHANIEL: Yeah, I saw her post on Linkedin. It's very inspiring.  MARY: It's super inspiring. So when you get to that point where you have to make that pivot, I agree. Most people I won't say most but many people kind of bail at that point and they're like, okay, I've got to go get a real job. I have a family or whatever. But I think you're right, if you just keep learning from each little step of the way, and do what you're doing, then there you're going to see the fruit of your labor.  NATHANIEL: And also I think another big tip is to ground yourself in reality. I was guilty of being…  MARY: High in the sky.  NATHANIEL: Sometimes you know, you don't have a $10 million angel investor with you.  MARY: Right.  NATHANIEL: And you might have to start small and build your way up to being your own $10 million investor. But you know, be grounded in reality. That's a big one, I wish I had told myself that a long time ago.  MARY: Yeah. All right. One last piece of advice maybe that you have for our listeners.  NATHANIEL: One last piece of advice, I would say, well, it depends. Is this like… who's your target audience… other entrepreneurs or just?  MARY: Students who are thinking about becoming entrepreneurs. Anyone who's thinking about beginning a small business…  NATHANIEL: I would say that the most important thing, at the end of the day, is your ability to learn. Because no one teaches you…  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: …how to run a business. No one taught me personally how to produce podcasts. No one teaches you half the things I do on a daily basis. So you have to have a willingness to learn. Don't go into it thinking that you know it all because I think that's gonna set you up for failure more than anything else.   MARY: I agree with that. Yeah.  NATHANIEL: And yeah learning is just super important. Learn from a variety of topics too. Don't just get so specific on your niche or your genre that you don't want anything else. I think there's a lot of value in reading and studying other businesses like  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: For example, there's a great book called Bitter Brew. It's about the downfall of the Anheuser-Busch family. There are so many nuggets of wisdom that you can learn by reading that. It has nothing to do with podcasting,but it's just value and seeing…how did they rise? How did they fall? And so learn. MARY: Bitter Brew. I always love it when people give book suggestions to our tour audience. I love that.  NATHANIEL: Another really good one, unrelated to business, but I think everyone should read is My Early Life by Winston Churchill, one of the best authors that I've read. So that's a really good one and then the Leonardo da Vinci Biography by Walter Isaacson. We're going on to book reviews now.  MARY: We could do a whole book review podcast.  NATHANIEL: Listen to Books and Looks is one of the podcasts that we produce that just does book reviews. MARY: Books and Looks. NATHANIEL: And interviews the authors.  MARY:  Oh, I'm gonna have to have you…I'm gonna have to get on that podcast when I publish my book. So yeah, I just, yeah, I'm gonna have to do that. All right. I learn so much from you every time you're on here and, you know, I've been in the broadcast business for 20 plus years now and I swear every time I talk to Nathaniel I learn something. So thank you so much for joining us. NATHANIEL: Thank you for having me and can I get a little promo?  MARY: Absolutely.  NATHANIEL: Check out Podcast Studio X. It's this podcaststudiox.com. Look at our services. See if any of that interests you or if you know anyone it might interest, let us know. MARY: And that's exactly what I was gonna tell everybody to do. See, he's such a pro. Nathaniel, thank you so much.  MARY: That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Listeners, thank you so much for listening. If you're watching on YouTube, thank you as well. We appreciate it. This podcast is produced through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producer Isabella Martinez, who is in charge of all of these cameras, as we talked about and everything that's going on in the studio today. So make sure that you comment on the podcast and give her kudos for her good work when you listen to or watch this podcast. But for now, I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. Until next time everybody, dream big.        

Tu fais quoi ce soir? Mary : Salut, Moussa ! Tu fais quoi ce soir ? Moussa : Ouf ! Je suis très occupé ce soir. Pourquoi? Vous faites un truc ce soir ? Mary : Oui ! Je fais une petite soirée chez moi. Tu ne peux pas venir ? Moussa : Je ne pense pas ! J'ai trop de choses à faire chez moi, surtout du bricolage. Ma femme et moi, nous faisons une rénovation complète de notre cuisine et bon… on doit avancer un peu. Mary : Oh! c'est dommage… Pedro ne peut pas non plus ce soir… Il fait du foot et il a un tournoi important aujourd'hui. Moussa : Valentina et Sally viennent, n'est-ce pas ? Mary : Et, non ! Elles sont en voyage : elles font le tour de la Sicile à vélo ! Moussa : Oh, non ! C'est dommage pour ta fête.

During this episode, Dr. Janet Patterson, Research Speech-Language Pathologist at the VA Northern California Healthcare System, speaks with Dr. Mary Purdy about aphasia rehabilitation, Interprofessional Practice (IPP) and Interprofessional Education (IPE).    In today's episode, you will:   Learn how IPP and IPE are related, in concept and practice. Hear about the similarities and differences in IPP in inpatient settings and outpatient settings. Listen to ideas on delivering client-centered treatment in an atmosphere of IPP.   Interview Transcript: Janet Patterson: Welcome to this edition of Aphasia Access Podversations, a series of conversations about community aphasia programs that follow the LPAA model. My name is Janet Patterson, and I am a Research Speech-Language Pathologist at the VA Northern California Healthcare System in Martinez, California. Today I am delighted to be speaking with my colleague and friend, Mary Purdy, about Interprofessional Education, or IPE, and Interprofessional Practice, or IPP. Dr. Purdy is Professor and Graduate Program Coordinator in the Department of Communication Disorders at Southern Connecticut State University in New Haven, Connecticut, and a speech- language pathologist at Hartford Health Care Rehabilitation Network. Mary has been involved with educating graduate students in the principles and practices of IPE for several years and is currently Chair of Southern Connecticut State University's College of Health and Human Services IPE committee. Additionally, she actively engages in Interprofessional Practice in the outpatient setting.  As Mary and I start this podcast, I want to give you a quick reminder that this year we are again sharing episodes that highlight at least one of the ten gap areas in aphasia care identified in the Aphasia Access White Paper authored by Dr. Nina Simmons-Mackie. For more information on this White Paper, check out Podversation Episode #62 with Dr. Liz Hoover as she describes these gap areas, or go to the Aphasia Access website.  This episode with Dr. Purdy focuses on gap area five, attention to life participation across the continuum of care, and gap area six, training and protocols or guidelines to aid implementation of participation-oriented intervention across the continuum of care. We focus on these areas through our discussions of IPE and IPP. Two previous Aphasia Access podcasts included conversations about IPE, Episode #7 with Darla Hagge and Episode #78 with Michelle Gravier, Albert Mendoza and Jennifer Sherwood. For so many reasons, IPE and IPP are crucial in creating and sustaining high quality aphasia rehabilitation programs. I hope our conversation today adds to the growing body of knowledge in IPP and IPE. With that introduction, I would like to welcome Dr. Mary Purdy to Aphasia Access conversations. Thank you, Mary for joining me today to discuss aphasia rehabilitation, IPP and IPE.  Mary Purdy: Well, thanks Janet. And thank you. It's really good to be here.  Janet: Let me just jump right in then Mary to say we've heard a lot about Interprofessional Education, or IPE, and Interprofessional Practice, or IPP. How do you define and think about these two related, but different concepts, both in general, and as they apply to aphasia rehabilitation?  Mary: Well, in general, when we think about IPP, the whole concept of collaboration, we know, leads to improved health care outcomes, and that's what we're all after, with our people with aphasia. In terms of the education students need, to learn how to collaborate with other professionals, and this can be quite complex. First of all, they need to understand what their own roles and responsibilities are, just related to their profession. Plus, they have to learn to work as a member of a team, and not just operate on their own, solo. In order to have students become comfortable in these roles, we have to provide them with opportunities to learn, and those opportunities, I think, really need to be both didactic and interactive.  Specifically, to aphasia rehabilitation, in addition to just general education about collaboration, students need to understand that individuals with aphasia really do have complex needs and to meet these needs, we have to focus on the patient. We hear a lot about patient-centered care, and that's really what it is that we need to be doing. So, students need to have some training in how to communicate with people with aphasia, and they need to get to the point where they can be comfortable training others to help communication. We have to help our patients identify what their goals are.  Interprofessional collaboration and practice, and patient-centered care really is all about the patient goals. They have to be really included with the whole program. Students have to be comfortable in aiding patients in identifying their goals, and they have to understand how other professionals can help meet those goals. You know, when we work with our clients, we of course, are focused on communication, but our patients are so much more than that. We have to look at them as the entire person that they are and recognize that we as speech pathologists can't take care of all their needs by ourselves. So, we have to bring in other professionals to help the clients meet their goals. The other thing is, we know that patient's needs change, as they adjust to life with aphasia, and they move throughout the continuum of care. As those needs change, the team members may also change, so students need to recognize that collaboration and interprofessional practice is always in flux. It's an ever-changing concept, in terms of practicing interprofessional collaboration. As clinicians, we need to practice what we preach, we have to remain focused on our patient, what their needs are, what their goals are. It can be difficult at times given time constraints and other constraints within the healthcare environment, but we really do need to try to make the effort.  Janet: Hearing you talk Mary, I'm envisioning a student, a graduate student, who is focused in trying to learn everything they can about the different aspects of communication disorders, not to mention everything about aphasia, and now we're asking them to learn more. That is, what an occupational therapist does or what a physical therapist does and how to organize that. Is that a daunting task for students?  Mary: I think so. As I said, they're learning what they themselves have to do, you know, what do I do as a speech-language pathologist. And so, when we start throwing everything else at them, I can imagine it's very daunting for students and it's hard to try to design educational opportunities that take into consideration where the student is in their whole educational process. I think there's a timing issue of how to be introducing all of these different concepts throughout the student's education.  Janet: Mary, as you recall from the introduction today, the White Paper authored by Dr. Simmons-Mackie identified gap areas in aphasia rehabilitation across the continuum of care, two of which I think relate to IPE and IPP. I would like to ask you about your thoughts regarding IPE and IPP and how they intersect with the LPAA model at three times: first, during graduate education as we teach and model for students who will become clinicians; second, during aphasia treatment in inpatient medical facilities; and third in the outpatient setting, including community aphasia groups. Let's begin with the educational environment. How do you teach and model IPE for your students? Can you tell us about some examples you use and how your students respond to your IPE activities?  Mary: First of all, in the educational environment when we're first really training the students, this is truly the IPE portion where we're preparing the students to learn the process of collaboration. Specific to aphasia, I usually start in my aphasia class. We have a couple of different case studies that we go through, that provide information to students about stroke, the professionals involved with stroke, then the person with aphasia. Through the case studies, I'm introducing them to the professions, and then to aphasia and how the professionals work with aphasia. Another thing that I do in class is, every semester students will interview a person with aphasia. They'll do a little language screen, and they'll interview a patient that comes up from our clinic. Recently with COVID, we've been doing this over Zoom, and it works fine. As part of that, they are instructed to ask the clients about their goals; what goals do they have both for clinic in terms of their communication, but also in general. Then later, we discuss what is needed to help the patient accomplish the specific goals, both within our own profession as well as outside. So, in class, there's a general introduction to IPE.  In the clinic, we've had some fun activities, very informative from multiple perspectives. One thing that we do is we have nursing students who are enrolled in their community health class, come into the clinic to perform a health intake with our individuals with aphasia. Now prior to that, our students have given the nursing students a little bit of background on aphasia, and we have the students view a video about it. And then when the nurses come into the clinic, they work with our students there together during the interview process. The nurses go through and ask all their questions and, I shouldn't laugh, but sometimes it's amusing to see the nursing students' reactions. They are just kind of flabbergasted in terms of, “okay, now what do I do?” For one client, the nurse was asking, the client, “Do you have a history of heart problems, cancer”, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and the client was responding “Yes” to everything. The nurse was saying “Oh, my gosh, you poor thing you've just been through so much”. I was in the observation room with the wife, who was saying he didn't have any of those problems. So, it was actually a very good learning experience for the nurse. Then our student jumped in and started using more pictures to try to help with understanding. We provided the supported communication prompts to help with that.  We've had therapeutic recreation come into the clinic, and we've had a few trips into the community. We've gone bowling, and that was interesting. The students learned about devices that are available to individuals who have hemiparesis. There are these stands that the person puts the ball on and just kind of pushes the ball off this rolling stand and it goes down the alley. Our students learn a lot about accessibility and what can be done to help our patients get around in the community a bit more. That's a couple of examples of what we've done in the clinic.  We also have worked with the Marriage and Family Therapy department to provide support to the spouses of the individuals with aphasia. I think that's another important aspect to make the students aware of, that aphasia doesn't affect just the person who has it. It affects everybody, and the spouses need support as well. Our students have sat in on and facilitated some of those sessions as well.  Some other opportunities our students have had are again related to assessment. We had our students go to the nursing lab, where they were doing simulations of assessments, and our students played people with aphasia. That was a lot of fun, and I tell you, it told me a lot about how much our students really understood about aphasia; it gave me some very good feedback as well. We've had a variety of different kinds of activities to educate other professionals about aphasia, to educate our students about the other professionals. So, it's been a lot of fun.  You asked about how the students responded to these activities, and an important component is the debriefing. After every activity, we always talk with the students about what they thought of the experience. They obviously they love the hands-on activities, they find those to be much more beneficial than the case studies and what have you. They've talked about how much they've learned about the patient; they're stunned often with the complexity of medical issues that the patients have, and it's sometimes led to new goals in our therapy sessions. We've had some goals where we would use aphasia friendly educational materials to inform the clients about their medications. We did roleplay scripts for community reentry, so that's been helpful for the students. It just increased their awareness overall. Their feedback was that it forces them to really look beyond just communication. And it also helped their interactions with the clients, kind of viewing them and accepting them as a real person, not just a client with a communication problem.  Janet: It sounds like such a rich experience for your students, when they're hearing it - the case studies, it's one thing to see those words on the piece of paper that says the patient has this diagnosis or has had that treatment, and then to see this person talk about, or try to talk about, whatever their concerns are, or their issues. I imagine the students must just be on one hand overwhelmed with everything, all the information that's coming to them, but very grateful for this experience, the whole interprofessional education experience,  Mary: They sometimes are overwhelmed, but I think the benefit outweighs the degree to which they're overwhelmed.  Janet: I'm sure that you can share stories of your own, thinking back to assure them that other people experience this, and you'll get better with time, and it will feel better and more natural in these kinds of conversations the longer you go in the career in the field of speech language pathology. Mary: I always tie in my personal experiences when I'm trying to explain one of these concepts. It does make it a bit more real to the students.  Janet: Well, that actually leads into my next question, Mary. You are, in addition to being the university faculty member, you are also a practicing clinician, and you use IPE and IPP in your work. How do you incorporate the ideas and the principles of IPP into your clinical activities, when you're in the inpatient medical settings, we'll talk about that setting for just a few minutes, the inpatient medical setting?  Mary: That's actually where I started my clinical career, in inpatient rehab, and it's always remained kind of dear to my heart, although it was very different back then, where patients would stay inpatient for three months. Two weeks they get now if they're lucky. In the inpatient situation it's a little bit easier to do collaboration because there usually are established team meetings. There are some requirements for accreditation related to collaboration. Though I have to say, that just having a group of individuals come together for a meeting doesn't necessarily include collaboration. I think it has to be approached very thoughtfully, in terms of what are we going to do to differentiate true interprofessional collaboration from just a multidisciplinary team? I think one of the main differences is truly staying focused on the patient and having more of a problem-based approach. We look at what are the issues with the patient and who needs to come together to address those issues. So, the collaboration is kind of built in through these regular team meetings.  In addition to that, though, I think the inpatient setting provides some unique opportunities. I've done a lot of co-treatment with PT and with OT. Just last week I was down in our makeshift apartment, it's actually a model of an apartment that has a bedroom, kitchen, everything, and I was working with OT. The OT was trying to help the individual manage with their one hand and also be conscious of the safety issues. The inpatient setting provides the opportunity for us to do some co-treatment as well. I've worked with PTs and OTs, trying to help the patient ambulate. We work on carryover of each other's techniques, and we educate each other about our own professions. Even at that level we have new OTS coming on the scene who had never worked with a person with aphasia. So, the co-treatments allow us to provide some of that education in a very naturalistic environment, which obviously is helpful to the patient. We also work together to figure out which discipline needs to address, what aspects of a problem. If a patient is having issues with problem solving, or flexibility, speech can address that, or OT can address that. So, we kind of work out who's going to do what, in a very non territorial way, which is fun.  One of my favorite projects that I did was a self-medication program. I work very closely with nursing to help educate the patient about their medications, what they're for, what the side effects are, what to do if there's a problem, and how to fill their med boxes. I took a lot of the information that the nurse was providing the client and incorporated that into my own therapy sessions in a much more aphasia friendly manner. It really is helpful in helping the individuals become a bit more independent. Anything that we can do to help increase their independence is so good for their psyche, for their motivation, and for their own self-worth. Not having to depend on a spouse to give them their meds is a big accomplishment. We also follow through on using techniques recommended by one profession in the other settings. So, I will make sure that I have patients positioned properly, when I'm working with them; I make sure that client has their communication book with them, or the OT would make sure the patient has the communication book when they're in the OT session. There's a lot of ongoing discussion about what we each need to be doing to help one another and help the patient.  Janet: That actually, it's both education and its practice, isn't it, because whatever you're learning and teaching new about aphasia in your classroom is also being shared, if you will, with your colleagues at the hospital, and they're teaching you, and you're doing it within the confines of the needs of a particular patient. So, I imagine that the interprofessional practice part, the education part of that, is just always there, is ongoing, and you don't make assumptions that the OT or PT automatically understand your goals in speech, nor do you automatically understand theirs for occupational or physical therapy. Mary: The education component really is carried on throughout, not with students, but as you said, with the other professionals. We're all always learning. I've been in this practice for more years than I care to count and I'm still learning things. That makes things fun and exciting and never boring.  Janet: When I think back, about the importance of LPAA and the importance of patient- centered care, when I think back on some of my practice 100 years ago, I wish I would have done things differently for patients. I could have been a much more effective clinician, but I wasn't thinking in that direction at that point in time. But I am now and I'm hoping that our listeners will also realize there's a lot out there that we can learn from, and we can impart to other professions as we all work to help patients. Mary: I cringe at some of the things that I did 30 years ago, but you live and learn. The end goal is always the same - we want to do what we can to help our patients. We want our patients to be able to lead fulfilling lives, how we get them there has changed, a little bit.  Janet: You've talked to us now about some of the activities you use when you educate students in IPE, and then you've talked about some of the things you do in Interprofessional Practice when you're in the inpatient setting. The third setting I would like to talk to you about is community aphasia groups and the outpatient setting. You may be the only speech-language pathologist on the staff, or you may not have access to other rehabilitation professionals in the outpatient setting like you do in the inpatient setting. How do you see IPE and IPP intersecting with the LPAA model in these clinical settings, either outpatient settings or community aphasia groups?  Mary: Personally, I don't work with community groups outside of the university and I think groups within a university are very different than groups in the community, you know, separate from an educational environment. I continue to work providing outpatient services to single individuals with aphasia, and without a doubt, thinking about collaboration requires more effort. Most of the time, the patients have already finished their OT and PT by the time they get to the Outpatient Center, at least where I am. I don't have those professionals nearby so collaborating would be difficult. But the thing is, even though they may have been dismissed from those other therapies, that doesn't mean that the patients don't still have needs, and their needs now might be very different than when they were discharged from the therapy, three months, or six months prior. I think we need to remain patient centered and always be thinking about, “What is this person doing? How fulfilled is this person? What are their goals?” The patient has been living with aphasia for a while now and so their needs have changed. They are, in my experience, branching out a whole lot more or wanting to branch out more so we have to know what their goals are for life participation, what is it they want to accomplish? Those goals may be completely unrelated to what I, as a speech-language pathologist, will be doing.  For example, one of my patients had always done knitting, she just loved to knit. She was lamenting that she wasn't able to knit for her new grandchild. I was asking her what was the main problem with it? Of course, she indicated her hand, she couldn't hold the knitting needles. I briefly talked with our OT in our clinic, and asked, “Would this be something that you think we should get another referral for? Is it something that you could really assist her with?” And the OT said, “Well, yeah, sure.” So, we did get a referral for her to get an OT eval, and the OT gave her a built-up knitting needle. I was familiar with them for pens, but I had never even thought of one on a needle. That enabled the patient to continue with her knitting. Granted, she was slower, and she might have missed a stitch or two, but she was so much happier that she was able to do that. And so, OT accomplished the goal of getting this patient back involved. I guess the moral of the story is, even if we're not directly working with the other professionals, they may be accessible, or we can get them re-involved, and so we need to keep an open mind about that, and not just think that, okay, they're done with PT, they're done with OT, because there definitely are things that can be done outside the realm of communication.  Having a good understanding of what our patients' skills are and what their challenges are, can also help us set realistic goals, help our patients set realistic goals. I remember working with a client a while ago who was living at home but needed assistance to get out of the house, to transfer into a car, and so on and so forth. I wasn't really even thinking about that, you know, the patient made it to my office, so I just kind of assumed that they could do whatever. The patient wanted to go back to going out to eat so we were working on scripts. I talked about this with the physical therapist as the patient was still receiving physical therapy. The physical therapist said to me that it's okay if she wants to work on that, but she's not going to be able to get into that restaurant, it's not accessible, physically accessible, and the patient has so much trouble getting out of her home into a car. The whole thing is very laborious and so the family doesn't really want to undertake that challenge at this point. They are willing to do it to get her to therapy, but the family isn't really ready to get her into the community yet. That just made me take a step back and think, “Well, duh! Yeah, of course!” I didn't have my goals aligned with what other professionals had for goals and what the patient had. Understanding more about our patients really can help us all, patient and professionals, align our goals, so that we can accomplish them in a more efficient manner. If a patient needs some therapy and isn't receiving it, we can always ask for referrals; they might be denied, but it doesn't mean we can't ask for them.  Janet: What you said made me think of a couple things. Something you said earlier that aphasia doesn't just affect the person with aphasia, it affects the family. So, when you're talking about setting goals, like your restaurant example, thinking about the PT goals, the OT goals, the family goals, the patient goals - maybe the patient's goal of wanting to be able to order in a restaurant could have been redirected to learn a script in preparation, maybe, for finding a restaurant script later on, but now, at this moment in time that isn't the best direction, as you said. So, it just makes me think really that aphasia is about the family, it is about more than just the person with aphasia.  Mary: Oh, absolutely. Patient-centered goals definitely are centered on what the patient wants, but I think have to be considered, along with what the family wants, and what's realistic. They're the ones that are existing together. They are the ones that are ultimately responsible for carrying out, or not carrying out, these different things. I think everybody needs to be on the same page. Janet: Something else you said also made me think - the knitting needle example. In addition to achieving a goal, or to listening to the patient, you're also modeling for the patient how to ask for something, or how to think about another referral, because a new set of skills has developed, or a new set of problems has developed, now that you're further along in the aphasia journey.  Mary: I think it's a part of our phase of therapy in general, I think increasing self- advocacy is a critical component, making them aware of what their rights are, and what they can be asking for and demanding. Then giving them the tools to do that is a major component of our therapy,  Janet: That is exactly what LPAA is, asking what it is the patient wants to do, looking around the environment, and asking how we can help the individual achieve those goals, and the family achieve the goals as well. So, your comments and ideas about IPE and IPP, I think are pretty exciting, Mary, I hear the excitement in your voice as you're talking. But I also think they're crucial to the way that we should be thinking about how to deliver rehabilitation services in the coming years and months ahead of us.  As we draw this Podversation to a close, what are the pearls of wisdom or lessons learned, that you would like to share with our listeners? And in particular, what practice suggestions might you offer to clinicians, as they try to incorporate principles of IPE and IPP into their own practices?  Mary: Well, I've certainly learned a lot. I've learned my lessons as I've moved through this journey. I do have fun with it, so it's always worth it. In terms of education, for educators and IPE, I think I would recommend starting small. Sometimes my excitement about IPE has led me to be a bit over ambitious, and that can get frustrating for me, it can get frustrating for my colleagues, and for my students. So, starting small I think, is a good place to start. We might set expectations that are not necessarily realistic for our particular environment or for a particular academic department. I think it's important to know that we can be effective with small changes, small changes in our curriculum, like incorporating the activities into the aphasia class. Another thing that has been helpful is finding a group of like-minded colleagues, because a lot of times many of these projects are carried out on our own time in the educational environment, so you have to be with others who are as excited about the project as you are to really make it work. I'd suggest getting involved with schoolwide Interprofessional Education efforts if they exist. If they don't exist, jump in and try to create them so that they can exist.  For clinicians, I think we have to practice what we preach - more follow through on the different principles that we're instilling in our students. I think as clinicians we have to stay patient-centered and think beyond just communication. Similar to what I mentioned for educators, start small. A meaningful change in the life of a person with aphasia doesn't necessarily require great amounts of time and effort. If we just think small, think of individual goals, little changes can have a big impact. Then finally, I would say, get to know your patient and be their advocate.  Janet: Those are good lessons for all of us and not always easy to do, but certainly worth the doing, I think.  This is Janet Patterson, and I'm speaking from the VA in Northern California, and along with Aphasia Access, I would like to thank my guest, Mary Purdy, for sharing her knowledge and experiences with us, as she continues her exciting and important work in IPE and IPP.  You can find references and links in the Show Notes from today's podcast interview with Mary Purdy at Aphasia Access under the resource tab on the homepage. On behalf of Aphasia Access, we thank you for listening to this episode of The Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast. For more information on Aphasia Access, and to access our growing library of materials, please go to www.aphasiaaccess.org. If you have an idea for a future podcast topic, please email us at info@aphasiaaccess.org. Thank you again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access.  References  purdym1@southernct.edu  Purdy, M. H., Hindenlang, J.& Warner, H. L. (2017). "Interprofessional Education: Take the leap." Presentation to the AMERICAN speech-Language-Hearing Association, November 2017.  Gurevich, N., Osmelak, D.R. & Farris, C. (2020). Interprofessional education between speech pathology and nursing programs: A collaborative e-platform curriculum approach. Journal of Interprofessional Care, 34(4), 572-575. https://doi.org/10.1080/13561820.2019.1657815 

Je vais au parc pour lire Moussa : Mary, je peux te poser quelques questions sur tes habitudes? Mary : D'accord. Moussa : Est-ce que tu vas à l'Université à pied ? Mary : Oui, j'habite à côté. C'est bien pratique. Je suis au centre de tout ! Moussa : Où est-ce que tu préfères étudier ? Chez toi ? à la bibliothèque ? Mary : J'adore travailler à la bibliothèque. Je vais aussi souvent au parc pour lire. C'est agréable. Moussa : Où est-ce que tu fais tes courses ? Mary : Aux halles, bien sûr ! C'est une sorte de marché. Moussa : Après les cours à l'Université, tu fais quoi ? Mary : Quand je pars de l'Université, je prends toujours une petite crêpe devant l'entrée. Moussa : Tu aimes la vie en centre-ville, non ? Mary : Oh, oui. Tu sais, je viens de la campagne, du plus profond de la campagne. Cette vie urbaine me plaît beaucoup. Moussa : Ah, bon ? Je pensais que tu venais des faubourgs de Londres. Mary : Oh, non pas du tout !

The road to the castle towards which the Countess now led Mary, lay through a long and dark walk of tall old linden trees. For a while they walked in silence together, each wrapped in her own thoughts, but at last the Countess said to Mary— "Oh, I must now tell you how the ring was found. My father's affairs requiring his presence at Eichbourg, we left Court earlier than usual this year—in the beginning of March. When we arrived at the Castle, the weather was very boisterous, and one night in particular we had a tremendous storm. You remember the great pear tree we had in our garden at Eichbourg? It was very old, and bore scarcely any fruit. That night the wind, which blew with great violence, had shaken it so much that it threatened every moment to fall, and my father ordered it to be cut down. "My father, and mother, the children, and servants, and indeed all of the people in the Castle, came into the garden to see it fall. As soon as it was... #story #kidsstories ✝️❣️

Qui es-tu? Monsieur Pierre, le professeur : Tom, tu es prêt ? Tu peux te présenter ? Tom : Euh… oui. Bonjour. Je m'appelle Tom, Tom Hill. Je suis irlandais. J'ai 23 ans. Je n'ai pas d'enfants, mais j'ai un petit chat : il s'appelle Ritchie, il est très gentil. Ma meilleure amie s'appelle Mary. Elle est très sympa. Euh… nous sommes tous les deux très contents du cours de français. Voilà. Monsieur Pierre : Ok, très bien… vous avez d'autres questions pour Tom ? Mila : Oui, Mary et toi, vous êtes irlandais ? Tom : Non, pardon, Mary est anglaise. Mila : Tom, tes parents sont aussi irlandais ? Tom : Mon père est français, ma mère est anglaise. Monsieur Pierre : D'autres questions ? Oui, Carlos… Carlos : Pardon, je n'ai pas compris : tu as un chien ? Tom : Non, j'ai un chat. Mais, mes parents ont un chien. Carlos : Et, Mary aussi a un chat ? Mary : Oh ! Non ! Je déteste les chats ! Dans ma famille, nous avons beaucoup de chiens. Carlos : Alors, tu n'aimes pas le chat de Tom ? Mary : Non, ça va… Ritchie est un chat très gentil. Monsieur Pierre : Super ! Merci pour vos questions ! Maintenant nous connaissons un peu mieux Tom.

Luke 2:21-52 Characters: Luke, Mary, Simeon, Anna (optional as backgroumnd bvoice), Rhoda and Hanna (fictional caravan travelers) knock affect) Mary: Oh, its you Luke. I'm…

Comment tu t'appelles? Tom: Bonjour, je me présente. Je m'appelle Tom, et voici ma copine : Mary. Mary ? Tu te présentes ? Mary: Oh, oui pardon ! Mon nom, c'est Mary. Je suis anglaise. Euh… J'ai deux chiens : ils s'appellent Pim et Pom…. Moussa: Euh… d'accord. Comment s'appelle ta meilleure amie ? Mary: Elle s'appelle Sally. Tom: Comment est-elle? Mary: Oh, elle est géniale! Je l'adore! Elle est très originale, elle s'habille super bien. Nous nous aimons beaucoup… Moussa: Oh, c'est mignon. Vous vous appelez souvent ? Mary: Oh, Oui ! On se téléphone tous les jours ! Et toi, tu t'appelles comment? Moussa: Moussa. Tom et Mary: Enchantés, Moussa!

Brent's back and ready to discuss A Bronx Tale (1993) with the crew!  Also trivia!   Special thanks to Brent for recording the show on his end, we had some technical difficulties and his recording made finishing the episode possible.  

Today I have the privilege of sharing with you, Mary Powell. The reason I'm bringing Mary on is because she's having some wonderful success in her trading, and we want to share that and she has a lot of lessons. And also she wants to share. But Mary, you might not know this, you are, you have the privilege of being the first female trader that we're interviewing on the podcast. So I haven't interviewed too many people on the podcast, most of the episodes have just been me. But we have been starting to interview, you know, people that are going through our programs and having success and different different traders, and our listeners seem to like it. So I said, Alright, let's bring some more on. But I did want to get it from a female perspective, because I do know that and studies have shown this that females are better at trading than men. Mary: There is that? And let's hope I'm not the last. Allen: No, no, you won't be. Mary: Start a new trend. Allen: Yeah. Yep. So I'm trying to line up a couple more. So hopefully, we'll have a lot more. Okay. And I am seeing that we are seeing more females in the program. So before, when we started, it was almost 100% All men, now it's become maybe 80-20. I think that with people like you coming on and sharing and saying, Hey, look, you know, women can do this as well, it's, there's nothing, there's no magic or anything to it. I think you'll be a role model for others who are trying it, but they haven't maybe stepped forward or they haven't put their hands up and said, hey, you know, I'm interested or something. So I think definitely, that will help. Because a lot of times, you know, when we're doing some type of like a case study with someone, it might be like, Oh, maybe it's a grandfather that lives or they used to work as a firefighter, you know, and he's talking about his story and this and that, then we'll notice that all of a sudden, we get a big influx of people who are grandfathers who used to be firefighters, or other firefighters. So whoever the case study is we seem to attract people like that. So I'm hoping that we can attract more women into the group. So I think that you're a trailblazer for that. So thank you Mary: Hoping for that as well. We can all support each other.  Allen: Cool. So Mary, how long have you been trading options? Mary: I have been trading options for more than 20 years, I will date myself and tell you that I did participate back in the late 90s when the option Industry Council to still a marvelous group of free education on options. But at that time, they were trying to solicit more business in the options. And they would go to various big metropolitan cities, rent hotel banquet rooms, and give two or three day training sessions for free about options. And so that's how long I've known about options. I would say I was probably a dabbler for a long time trying to master the various concepts about the Greeks and different option strategies. And my career probably took the front seat at that time, and I just didn't dedicate the time needed to really focus on it. Until probably in the last five years, many people in my family or friends have retired. And when I went to the financial planner and start working the numbers, and I didn't like those numbers. Wanna see, you got to work for 10 or 15 more years, I'm very fortunate that I do enjoy my job. But I don't want to have to have that pain over me that I'm a slave to it. So that's when I really got serious and started really honing my attention and my education efforts on options. Allen: So about five years ago, you got serious? Mary: Yeah. Allen: And I want to ask you like back in the day when you first when you when you first start, would you remember how much the commission's were back then? Mary: They were probably in the range of 14 to $16 and each, each side, so you know, $30 a round trip and that was back in the day when the naming nomenclature was alphabetical. They didn't go by month in week. They didn't even have weeklies back then. Yeah. So you had to learn all of that. Yeah, it's been fun to watch the evolution and with electronic trade.  Allen: Yeah I mean it's so so much simpler now and easier. And I remember, like, I didn't get started. I don't know. It's been a while. I think it's like maybe 15-16 coming close to 20 years for me, but when I started Thinkorswim was already there. And, you know, everybody was blown away. They're like, Oh my god. This is so amazing. So I'm like, okay, but this is cool. It's good. I mean, it's good to have these nice features and stuff, but I don't get but they're like, now you don't understand. You don't understand what we've been through. You know, to get a quote, you have to call your broker on the phone. And then he has to go look it up for you. And it takes like, 10 minutes to get a quote. Oh, wow. Okay, yeah, this is all real time. This is cool. This is better. So yeah, people starting now. I mean, the tools available education is available. It's a lot simpler than back in the day. So was it just because of the money aspect that got you involved in Options? Or was there something else? Mary: It was primarily the money aspect. And, you know, I was working a full time job, but I wanted to get into more multiple streams of income in different ways. But my job requires probably 50 plus hours a week. So that did limit me from what I can go out and get a second job. I just totally burnout so and I didn't have the time to focus to open my own business or do something like that. So what could I do that could generate cash flow that didn't require a lot of time? That's where Options fit into the scenario. Allen: Okay. And you you're working from home right now? Mary: Yes. Allen: Okay. What do you do? If you don't mind? Mary: I'm an auditor. Allen: Okay. For like, the for the IRS or something or? Mary: No, for a retail company - food retailer, I audit financial statements. Okay, like Sarbanes Oxley. Allen: So okay, so about 50 hours a week you spend on the job? How much time do you spend trading? Mary: So overall, all of my trading, I probably spend, I'll say, a half an hour a day. Allen: Okay. Mary: When I started with your group, I first started with the blank check program. So in that trading, if I'm not making a trade that day, I probably spend five minutes a check - twice a day, which more out of curiosity than necessity. I could check it once a day. If I'm making a trade, I might spend 10 to 15 minutes analyzing what I'm going to do, and then I make the trade for the month. Okay. Allen: And so what have your results been so far? Mary: So far? So I started trading live, blank check program in February of this year. And in that eight months, I've averaged 7% return per month. Mary: Very nice. And so far, I've made 16,500. I started just with the minimum amount to open an account on TD Ameritrade, 10,000. Okay, and I have added some more money, so I could expand the number of contracts I trade in. Allen: Awesome. So what's your goal? Is it to put it aside for retirement or double your income, supplement the income, so you can try early? Mary: Put it aside for retirement, and then in the hope of retiring early, in the next three to five years? Allen: So basically, you're gonna, you're gonna you're gonna leave the money in and just keep growing that account? Mary: Yes. Allen: Okay. How long do you think it'll take? Mary: So, with the blank check trading in conjunction with my equities trading, which I was just starting before getting introduced to your podcast, and we can talk about that, but I was just starting to kind of glean in on the selling puts strategy and your paths of trading - the wheel strategy, right before I started listening to your podcast. So between the two accounts, I hope to be able to retire in three to five years. Allen: That's awesome. That's awesome. So about five to seven years early. Mary: Yes. Allen: Okay. And do you have any children? Mary: No, I do not. Allen: Okay. All right.  Mary: So that makes it easier. Allen: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You know, she, she, she enjoys learning about the trading. And I've taught her in the past, but eventually, and then she started her own business. And so she's busy with there, and then she's busy with the kids. And she's like, Yeah, I don't want to deal with the trading. You know, she's like, you're doing fine. You do it. I don't want to deal with it. But we do have somebody else on our staff. And she is, unfortunately her husband passed away. I think it's been about a year and a half or two years from cancer. And so she's raising her four boys alone. And, you know, at the company here, I make it a requirement that everybody that works here, they have to know how to trade whether they do it We're not, you know, that's up to them. But they have to know what our customers are going through. They have to know the lingo, they have to know how to articulate. And so she's been, she's been killing it since she started. She said, she's learning and she's like, Oh, my god, you know, I've been working with you for two years. Now, why didn't I do this before? So.. Mary: Oh that's excellent! Allen: Yeah, it's, it's really, it's really cool. And the fact that, you know, you mentioned it only takes a few minutes a day, you can still work, you can still handle other responsibilities. It's not that it's not that time consuming. So that's one of the things I get, we got to get the word out, you know, we got to get the word out. Mary: I know but my heart goes out when I see older, retired individuals in the workforce. And I just say to myself, I hope they're doing it for social reasons and not economic, that they made the choice that they want to be out here working, because this is that easy at that age, and I give them all the credit in the world. Allen: Yeah, I mean, you know, you go to Walmart, and they have the greeters. And you know, they're standing there, and they can't, it's tough to see, it really is. But you said that you had started trading options about five years ago? Or was that Equities and Options or? Mary: That was just the equities? Allen: How are you doing with that? Mary: Very well, very well. That account is much larger. And, again, you know, I have to employ passive trading, because I just don't have the time. But I'm averaging 6% a month on that. So just to your principles may not seem like a lot, and I'm not going to be a millionaire overnight. But the compounding principle, in action, will. Allen: Yeah, no, 6% a month is nothing to.. Mary: No yeah so I'm beating the gentlemen over at a brokerage to remain nameless that other smaller accounts I have. So I'm very happy with the return. Allen: Cool. So how do you balance? Like, how do you decide how much to have in each? Because I mean, you said you're doing better in the oil. So however you decided, which is which you want to focus more time on? Mary: That's kind of a crossroads that I'm at, at this point, because I am doing so well, that I mentioned to you, the financial advisor, when I went last month for my tax checkup said, you have stopped trading for the year, or you're going to throw yourself into the next tax bracket, you do not want that. Focus has become the task, tax aspects of it all. So again, kudos to your podcast, because you address those types of things, all the section 1256 types of trades. And so that's where I'm at right now is evaluating. Okay, do I move more of my money into the oil trading? And I just signed up for the weekly trader, which is good deal more in the index funds - yes. So that would give me a better tax advantage. Allen: Okay. All right. Yeah. I mean, you, you know, I've never I know you can buy SPY. I don't know if you can buy SPX I've never actually tried to, that'd be interesting to know, cuz I know, the SPX. You know, the SPX does give you the tax advantage, the 1256. But I've never actually tried to buy a share of that. I don't know if you can, I know, you could buy call options, or, but I don't know if that'll be interesting to know. Yeah. Mary: Check it out. It's a first world problem. And I'm kind of on the water as well as like, do I keep working? or Now I, you have given me the freedom of time choice and choice do I mean, I could make what I make at my job trading? Do I do that full time? Or do I, you know, stick with the job as I can, then knowing that I do have the freedom of choice that if it gets to be too much, or I don't want to do it anymore, and I walk away from it. Allen: So you can you do that now? Or you could have to wait another three years? Five years? Mary: I could do that now. I think I'm just sticking with it. Because of the health insurance. And those sides thing? Yeah, I could still manage the job and the trading... Allen: Right. Right. So why not? Right. And you said there's, you know, there's a social aspect. So, you know, you've known these people for so long that it's like, kinda like family now. Mary: They are. That's very true. Yes, I have a great team that I work with. Allen: Cool, cool. So how does your husband feel about you trading? Mary: He has no interest in it whatsoever. He just lets me do my thing. I mean, I'm not used to getting his money or the mortgage money. So he just saw that's her little hobby. He's retired. So he spends most of his day either on a motorcycle or a mountain bike or doing the hobbies he enjoys. So.. Allen: Wow very nice. So he's never told you to be like, Hey, can you take care of my money too? Mary: Oh, he wanted me to do that with his 401k. And like no. Not gonna enable you, I'd be happy to teach you what I do. Allen: Well that was fun. Mary: He went out and got a money manager and.. Allen: Ahh that was funny.. you guys can do it together you know, swap stories, discuss different ideas, argue about which ticker symbols to buy. Mary: Yeah, I don't think you can handle the... honestly. Allen: It's not for everybody. No. Now the funny thing is, I do remember when you first called us so you got on the phone with us to learn about the program, and to get in. I actually talked to you, which I haven't I don't really talk to most people, but I don't know what it was. I was listening to you talking and you know, with Cory, you're going back and forth. And I hopped on the call, and you're like, Yeah, I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna think about it. And then I was like, okay, you know, and then later on, you actually came back. And you actually, you actually came back and did it. In hindsight, would you still have waited? Mary: Well, no, it was active waiting. You know, it was the trust, but verify. So what I did after that call was based on what I knew, and kind of figured you were doing with these options I pay a portrayed is for three months. And it was all positive. So I said, Okay, I'm gonna take the leap of faith and go for it. Allen: Cool, good. So that means, yeah, so you've had like, instead of just eight months, you've had like, 11 months of gains? Mary: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that you talked about on one of the podcasts is, you mentioned compared to individuals, one person took the program and went and did really well with it. And the other person just over analyzed and questioned and said, you know, it's too simple. This can't work again, if you had to ask me what was my biggest challenge in implementing it was just grasping the simplicity of it. I was like, Okay. And granted, I, you know, I did come in knowing the fundamentals of Options Trading, but I went through the, there's only six lessons. And so I was like, Well, I must be really tired. Maybe they're on a more on a different page or get it again, tomorrow. Nope, I came back. And I went through the six lessons again. And I went, Okay, let's do it took a deep breath and placed the trade and been good ever since. Allen: That's awesome. That's great to hear. Yeah. You know, I mean, I always tried to keep it as simple as possible. And sometimes like, as options traders, you know, if you come in learning about options, and like you said, you know, you go to the council, and they tell you, Oh, you got to know the Greeks. And you got to know the gammas and the Vegas and, and all this stuff. And people come in and they're like, what about this? What about that? And I'm like, you don't need to worry about it. It's like, Mary: There's so many strategies and strangle... there's iron condor, and people just get overwhelmed. Yo, I don't know where to start or how to do it. And when you look at your system, you're just like, Nope, just follow the straight path that I've already blazed for you. And it'll all be good. Allen: Yep. The biggest problem I have some time is like, you know, like, I knew that you had been doing it, you had been trading for a while. So in my mind, it was like, okay, you know, my hardest part with you is going to be to get you to maybe suspend disbelief a little bit, and to kind of stop doing all the stuff you're already doing. You know, and be like, this is the path just follow these steps. You don't need to do anything else. Just, you know, don't overcomplicate it, because we have people in the program in the group. They come in and they're like, Yeah, you know, you told me to do this but you I'm gonna do this double Condor butterfly thingy. And I'm like all right, let me know how it turns out. Mary: Yeah, it's like bumper bowling just head down the middle keep aiming the head bin?  Allen: Yeah, that's why sometimes.. Mary: ..you're out to do I mean, no, it has I get myself in trouble is if I go against the rules, and they a towel, and then my tracking sheet of what rule did I violate and what lessons did I learn from it? And so I only have myself to blame. It's not the program. Allen: Cool. Cool. So what was besides the simplicity, what was the hardest thing to implement? Or like this could be for your equity trading or for your options trading, to go from, you know, learning and not doing as well, to making that switch to being okay, now I'm becoming consistently profitable. What did it take to make that switch for you? Mary: I think in your mind, you're always trying to hit that home run that you talk about. But if you just get your consistency down with the base hits and small amounts, just keep compounding and keep compounding, you know, all of a sudden, you look at the balance, and you're like, wow, alright, I'm getting some traction, and I'm making progress. And I can do this, I can do this. Allen: Awesome. So what was the biggest challenge in implementing? Mary: Again, I think it's just trying to keep myself from over analyzing it all the time trying to make it more difficult than it is because it's like, well, if it's this easy, and why isn't everyone doing it? Right? So your brain is going, Well, maybe if I add this, or I start looking at this number, analyzing this graph, or this chart, I'll get the edge and it's like, no, just, you know, take a little cream off the top and minimize your stress. And, you know, keep compounding and you'll get there. Allen: So how was it? How did you overcome that in your own mind?  Mary: Just trying to be grateful and satisfied with the results that I have, and not be greedy? Yep. Yeah, keep reminding myself, it's gonna be okay. You know, no matter what happens, now, I have the knowledge and the tools to always be able to financially provide for myself. And that freedom, we can't put a price on it. And I can't thank you enough. I owe you immensely. Allen: No, you're the one that did all the work so...   Mary: But you shared it, and you don't give up on me. Yeah, I'm just a stubborn Irish girl, you let it settle. And I'll come back around. Allen: Yeah, we nobody has accused us of not sending enough emails. Mary: I love your email. Allen: Like one of my mentors years ago, when somebody that I learned from, you know, he kept drilling it into everybody's head, anybody that listened that, you know, get a good education, because that is the one thing that nobody can take away from you, you know, they can take away everything else. They could take away your status, your money or your, you know, physical belongings they can. And he was talking to people from different countries. So he's like, you know, they could expel you out of your country, and kick you out and take everything that you have, but they can never take your education, you will take that with you everywhere you go for the rest of your life. And I think you hit it on the on your head, you know, when you when you mentioned that you're like, now I have a skill that no matter what happens, I'm going to be able to just, you know, go into the market and just extract money. And.. Mary: Yeah, even if all I need is, you know, if I retired and I just need the money to pay the property taxes. I can do that and spend the rest of my time I may be on the beach, but yeah.. Allen: Yep. And you I mean, you compare that to, you know, like the financial planners, you know, they go to school, they get degrees, they follow the news, and this and that, and they do all this research every day, and they're supposed to know everything that's going on in the economy in the market and everything. And hands down. You're beating them. It's like, why are you guys doing that hard, it's tough. If you could do this instead? Mary: So to bring it back here point about being a woman. I mean, we know they are better traders statistically, but just we know in the workforce, you get discriminated against and your pay. And as a petite woman Oh, even more so everybody treats me like a child. You see me at car dealership? Oh, oh, no. Yeah, no. They just only talked to my husband. And he's like, don't talk to me, she's the one buying the car. You know, for you to be honoring to women to give that gift. And it's that freedom of choice that you don't have to be locked into a situation or stay with an individual or with a company if you don't want to only for financial reasons that you can have the freedom to choose the life you want. Allen: Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. I haven't like as a man. I've never even thought about that. You know, I've never had to think about that. Yeah, that you can if you're in a situation that it's not healthy, that a lot of women like you said they feel trapped. They can't leave because they're dependent on one thing or another and they don't have the resources to handle it now especially.. Mary: When you're behind the screen. There's no discrimination. They don't know who you are. You're just out there trading with everybody else. So it's a level playing field. You can make it happen. Allen: Yeah, and you're actually going It's not even level you have the advantage. For, whatever reason, you know, I guess they say that the female mind doesn't take as much risk. It's, you know, it's more about staying calm and collected. And like you said this the small games and watching out for security more than, hey, I want to hit the Grand Slam, maybe that that's what it is but yeah.. Mary: Put your ego aside a little bit and, and in for people that I know a lot of people I'm not good at math. That's not it either, you know, I think if you're like you say if you're wise, big enough, you can learn this. And it's a B, if you're in a store, and they raise the prices on everything by 50%, you're gonna get out of the store, right? If you're in the store, and they lower the price by 50%, you're gonna buy everything. So it's same kind of concept.  Allen: Yep. So all you need is a calculator. Or if not, then you could just use a spreadsheet and this spreadsheet. Cool, awesome. So what do you think the future holds for you? No Mary: Choice. And that's a good feeling that I'm not locked in. If the job gets to be too much, I can walk away and trade full time, and I'll be alright. And if the job holds out, and I retire in three to five years, then I can enjoy more time in retirement doing things I want to do and giving back. Because that's what it's about. It's a human. Allen: Mm  hmm. That's amazing. Yeah, that's great. Because I know, you know, I don't know how or when this COVID thing is gonna completely go away, or if it's ever gonna go away, but there's been a lot of people who had to quit their jobs. And they couldn't, they didn't go back to work for one reason or another. And taking early retirement. And now, it's become a lot tougher, you know, people with pre existing conditions, and then you get older and then you have to go in and it's like, yeah, I don't want to expose myself, I don't want to expose my my loved ones. And if you have something like this, where you can sit at home in a few minutes and use your intelligence and use your common sense and push some buttons, and the money, you know, it's it's, it takes a while, you know, it's not overnight, that you start making money. But I think in the long run, it's better off. And based on that, I wanted to ask you, how long did it take you to get your you know, your mind around the whole concept and start making money? Mary: In the blank check? Well, both both. I think so because I kind of started out as a dabbler and learning like everybody else and tried the strategies of buying options first. And you know, that's so hit or miss and get frustrated. And this and that. And so when I finally started going on the other side and selling options and having success, and it's like, Okay, God encouraged and, okay, now I see how this is working. Okay, let me look at every strategy and the pros and cons. And so, you know, with selling options, okay, what's the worst that can happen? I have to buy the stock. So I stick to, you know, high dividend stocks that I don't wouldn't mind owning otherwise. So that limits the risk on that. So I would say it probably took me two years..  Allen: Okay Mary: And then it  was consistent in my return.  Allen: Okay,so two years of learning, making mistakes, coming2 back having some winners and some losers. And then how about with the oil program? Mary: That was successful right off the bat. The only, you know, last month was my only negative month that I had. And again, that was my own fault. I didn't follow the rules. But but, you know, I could say I had, you know, I had the laws and still far ahead. So it's not one of these, you know, your program is not one thing. Oh, I'm gonna guarantee you, you know, million percent return. Allen: Yeah, and I mean, losses are part of the game. So, you know, you gotta learn to handle them..One time or another, it's gonna happen. So you might as well be ready for it. But, but the The important part is to know how to manage it, you know, and so yeah, I oil has been, has been interesting this year. You know, last year was interesting this year has been interesting, and who knows what the future holds. But I think one of the things that you mentioned you alluded to earlier is that when you're doing it and if you have like a community of other people that are doing it with you that you can bounce ideas off, it gets it gets so much easier, and it's not lonely. You know, one of the things that we see that people are like, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna try to learn it on my own", you really are kind of on your own. And there's nobody there helping you and supporting you along the way. So it takes, it takes much, much longer than it should, and, or that he needs to. Allen: Yeah, and I mean, losses are part of the game. So, you know. Mary: Exactly Allen: You got to learn to handle them it around it. Yeah, one one time or another, it's gonna happen. So you might be ready for it. But the The important part is to know how to manage it, you know? And so yeah, I oil has been, has been interesting this year, you know, last year was interesting this year has been interesting, and who knows what the future holds. But I think one of the things that you mentioned you're alluded to earlier is that when you're doing it, and if you have, like a community of other people that are doing it with you that you can bounce ideas off, it gets, it gets so much easier, and it's not lonely. You know, one of the things that we see that people are like, oh, yeah, I'm going to try to learn it on my own, you really are kind of on your own. And there's nobody there helping you and supporting you along the way. So it takes it takes much, much longer than it should and, or that it needs to. Mary: And when you get older, you know, time is money. And it's worth the cost of the program to gain that knowledge and have it all laid out for you. versus spending so much time trying to dabble on your own and figure it out. And with your program I mean, the Facebook group is all very supportive and sharing their ideas. And as well as the weekly calls. It's a great community. They're very welcoming and open to everyone's ideas and learning new things.  Allen: Yep. Hopefully, you know, we won't have any of that discrimination in there. I don't think we have.. Mary: No, I'm not sensitive at all. I mean, I know for when I first started calling in, I was the only woman on but nobody ever made any comments or said anything. They were very welcoming.  Allen: Yeah, and the culture is pretty clearly. It's not like an all boys club, you know, they're very clean. No dirty jokes really like that. But um, so what would be some of the takeaways that if you know, somebody came up to you and said, Hey, I'm thinking about learning to train and joining Options? What are some of the tips that you would give them? Mary: Well, going back to how I even came upon your podcast. So during COVID, I've only been familiar with your program for about a year and a half. So with COVID, I was doing more walking, so started to listening to podcasts while I walk. So I searched for options, and yours came up. And when I saw how much how many episodes there were in content, I thought, Oh, this will take me three years worth of get through..so this would be great. And I got through all those podcasts in about two or three months. That's how good they were. And every one it was like, yes, that's exactly what happened. Oh, he's given such great advice, and it is down to earth. This is the real world advice. You're not sugarcoating it, you're not making promises that you can't keep. And if I had to tell people what I learned from my 20 years of trading, it would be just what you're telling people on their podcast, you know, from the ups and the downs to how to diversify. How to protect yourself from various risks. So I can't speak to the podcast strong enough.. Allen: Thank you.. Mary: That they cover the gamut of what you're going to deal with and when you become a trader. Allen: Okay, so Okay. Okay, so listen to the podcast, but what else? What else, give you some, some behind, you know, some, some, like stuff that you learned in the trenches kind of stuff? Mary: Stuff that I learned, I'll tell you that one of the best things I learned was making mistakes, how much I learned from it. Okay, so when I was first starting to sell options, and I realized that I kinda oversold and the position went against me. And so I was going to have divided the stock. Well, it was very expensive stack and I was like, oh, no, how's this gonna work out? What's gonna happen on Monday morning, so sweating it all weekend, figuring out how I could take a home back to cover my.. this and that and then just through going through it, then I realized, well, Monday morning, it opened up higher so they came out ahead, you know, they signed it to me, and then I resold it. So it was like, oh, okay, that's how that works. No problem. I know. No, I can handle it. That was my story. Allen: Yeah, yeah. Nobody showed up to my house. You know, want to break my kneecaps or anything? Yeah, a lot of a lot of on that point, there's a lot of things that we are afraid of that "oh, this is going to happen and that's going to happen" and we're not we haven't gone through it yet. And we just have these fears and when we actually go through it, it's like, oh, that's not what I was expecting at all. Mary: Yeah that's not so bad, I can handle that. So exactly, put a lot of that fear to rest in my head. Allen: Okay, so what are the worst things about trading for you? Mary: The worst thing? That there's so many things to choose from, from so many equities you can choose to dabble in and so many different strategies, just trying to find what your niche is. And you know, what works for you and what you're comfortable with. Well, I think finally, after all this time, I've been trading, I kind of have a cadence know, the stocks I like, which ones you get a feel for them, and you get a sense of how they move. And so that was kind of a switch for me, I guess, in the equities tend to trade a lot of high volatility stocks. Went to oil, in my mind, commodities, because I didn't have any frame of reference, except the old movie from the 80s. You know, one minute, you're up half a million and soybeans, the next they breach, your kids aren't going to college presents your... So I was worried that it would be even higher volatility than what I was used to. But it turned out to be the opposite. It wasn't as volatile. So I would make correcting move (inaudible) was gonna be a lot more volatile. And it was, so I've had to adapt in a good way. Allen: Okay. Yeah, most people told me the opposite. They're like, Yeah, this is, it moves a lot more than I'm expecting,  because of the leverage that's involved. Okay. So what was it that that attracted you to oil in the first place? Mary: It was the diversity from the equities, being able, again, like your multiple streams of income, I can do the same thing, but in different avenues. So that if something happens on the stock side, so I have the oil, and it was the tech draw of it. Okay, the benefits on the tech side? Okay. Allen: All right. Do you, now looking forward? Is there anything else that you're going to be trying? Or are you happy with what you got going on right now? Cuz I mean, you know, 6%, on one side, 7% average on the other side per month? That's really good. You know, you could easily turn that into a few million dollars the next few years, just compounding every month, over and over again. Do you think you need something else itching or are you just content? Mary: I just because, I get itchy and you know, there's a bird chirping in my ear about the whole crypto, you know, so, you know, I was looking into different started watching some videos or informational stuff on trading crypto in a Roth IRA. Allen: Really, inside a Roth? Mary: Yeah. So that if it goes big and you get the home run, then, you know, you don't have to get hit so hard with the tax.  Allen: Right, right. Mary: You know and being closer to retirement. Okay. For me, it's a different if you were 20 years or something. Allen: So would you have to have a like a self directed IRA this year, that special broker? Okay, all right. Okay. Mary: So but.. you know.. Allen: Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I have some, you know, I've been buying a little bit for the past several years now, just holding it and be like, Yeah, I'm not gonna trade it because I don't know where it's going up. And when it's going down, just been just invited a little bit here and there and just sticking in leaving it in the wallet and it's just, you know, just going up and up and up. It's crazy time do we live in? You know, like you said, 20 years ago, 14, 18, $20 a commission, you had to call your broker up to place a trade. Now, it's like, you know, press a few buttons 15-20 minutes a day, like you said, I don't know, man, we're living in great times. Mary: There's so many choices. You know, I do listen to some podcasts from CME Group is different ones. And just that team, they're expanding their offerings, you know, getting more into micros and the minis on all the indexes, because that's what people want. And they're starting to get into smaller units on the crypto currency and they don't have options on those futures yet, but you can tell there's enough audience questions about it that there's interest and I'm sure it'll come to be. Allen: Yeah. I think part of it is just they just want to make more money, you know. Mary: Their commissions are getting smaller and smaller. So they have to find ways to diversify as well. Allen: Yeah, the more stuff they have that people can trade, the more fees they can charge on their features. but cool. Okay, well, I appreciate your time. Is there anything else that you want to share with our audience? Mary: No, I appreciate the invitation. And just I would say, if you're new to options, don't get overwhelmed. Because I'm still learning, I pick up books. And, you know, I just, it's a hobbies, interest. And I like reading different books about it. But if you just learn one new thing a day, in no time you'll have it so don't get overwhelmed. And anyone's thinking about going into these programs with Allen's team and just have faith in the process and the program. He and his team are there to support you. It's not some fly by night, answering service, you can get a hold of Allen, you can get a hold of his team. So you know, that kind of put substantiation behind it. So have a faith in Allen's programs and have faith in yourself. Because you can do it, just get past fear and go for it. Allen: Well said, well said, Awesome. And thank you for this so well, the kind words, I really appreciate it. Nothing makes me happier when we have a success story or somebody saying, hey, you know what, I tried that. I just listened to you. And I did it. And it really worked. And I'm like YAY because like my wife. She knows trading, you know, she's she was interested in the beginning. And so I taught her some stuff, but I can't really go home and talk to her about it all day, cuz she'll like, she'll be like, stop. I don't really care. It's fun. It's fun when other people come back, and they like, Yeah, wow, it really worked. And I'm like, All right, Yay, we're actually making a difference in the world. So I appreciate that. Mary: You told me so. And you were right. Allen: Cool, cool. So for our listeners, I just wanted to sum up what Mary shared with us. So she's been doing oil options for about eight months now making consistent returns, she's also trading in a different account stocks, and you're doing some high volatility trades, right? And then you're also doing some low volatility stuff where you're doing like passive style with covered calls naked puts, and.. Mary: I'm mostly doing naked, puts on everything. Allen: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, those have been working amazingly well, I've been doing those as well just gotta make sure that you're protected when the market turns around. Cool. And then it was interesting that you said that, you know, your, your financial adviser told you, hey, you need to stop making money. Because otherwise, can you stop trading please because you're gonna go into higher tax.. Mary: Oh, my goodness. Allen: Like, okay, you know, give me some ideas, you know, how to, like, you know? Like, don't tell me to stop making money. You don't tell me, okay, give us give us a charity or something else? Or give you some ideas? Don't tell me to stop making it. Come on.  Mary: Exactly. Allen: That was interesting. And then I love the fact that she said that, you know, if you wanted to, you could stop working right now. And you could just live off your trading income. And that gives you complete freedom. And that gives you, you know, the choice of, hey, do I want to keep doing this? Do I want to stay at work, or if things deteriorate, you know, who knows what's gonna happen with the future, what's going on? If anything goes different topsy turvy, you have the choice of staying, or leaving or moving, you know, you could go to another country and, and who knows what, anything's possible. So I love that fact that you've been able to get to that point. And, you know, kudos to you, you did the work, you put in the time you learned, you tried it, you practiced it, and then you just followed, you know, you didn't mess with it very much. You followded the rules, and it's working, and you're like, Okay, you know, I can do this. It's good. And it's been wonderful to have a female perspective. I mean, you enlighten me about, you know, having that freedom of not having to be in that bad situation. If you are in one, you know, Mary: Yeah. Or, like, you know, the person on your team who not by choice, but is in a position of having to raise children with, you know, no partner and having to build a come up with that income to do that. Yeah, that's scary to be in that position. Yeah, I mean, for you're gonna do. Allen: Four boys is not cheap, you know. So it's like, she could either be working 50-60 hours and try to pay for everything, because she's got, you know, all four of them are gonna be heading to college soon. So that's not going to be cheap, either. And you can either do that, or, you know, she's working less than 40 hours now, and she's supplementing that with the money that she makes from her trading. So it's amazing. The blessings We get from this stuff. But yeah, you know, kudos to you. Definitely you looked into it, you learned about it and you said hmm. Okay, let me try. Yeah. And that took you down. It took you down a road that you never knew what the outcome would be. But the outcome has been amazing so far. So I'm really proud of you did a great job. Mary: I would not have explored that on my own. You know, if it wasn't for your program, I would have never looked into the oil. Allen: Yeah. Well, we're here for you. We're here for you know, all the other students that we have. We do our best. And again, I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Those of you are listening. If you want to reach out to Mary. She is in our Facebook group. Thank you so much, Mary, and we'll talk to you soon. Mary: You're welcome. Thank you for the invitation. Been a pleasure. Thank you LOVE ALLEN SAMA - OPTION GENIUS AND WANT TO LEARN MORE TRADING TIPS  AND TRICKS? HERE ARE SOME NEXT STEPS... SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PODCAST FREE 9 LESSON COURSE: https://optiongenius.com/  WATCH THIS FREE TRAINING: https://passivetrading.com  JOIN OUR PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP: https://optiongenius.com/alliance  Like our show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps.

Overview Mary Elizabeth faces challenges as a writer and a mother. Two of her three kids are on the spectrum and they inspired her award winning book series. Not only all of that - she has two shows that stream online. Her mission is to help families which ultimately helps the kids. Her books help with her mission and she has worked with other authors to achieve those goals. Her Website https://maryejackson.com/ Her Shows https://business.facebook.com/WritersCornerLive https://www.facebook.com/SpecialNeeds.TV Mary's Book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08R9T13QC/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B08R9T13QC&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=e95087a25ac4d46323abfd1dd3504401 Favorites https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0375851569/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0375851569&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=e7a39a017ffd60c60b6ea558e08019b0 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZTT5KTR/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B07ZTT5KTR&linkCode=as2&tag=saschneider-20&linkId=0aee4fc49fcaf676a2c06c02cb57c89b YouTube https://youtu.be/J4ZVuSE_5Uw Transcript [00:00:56] Mary: hello? We're JP and Christine co-host of the serial fiction show. Do you like to read or write serial fiction and want to learn more? We have two podcasts, the reader serial fiction show and the writer serial fiction. On the reader's podcast, we escape into a new cereal each week. Then interview the author to tell us more on the writer serial fiction show. [00:01:20] Mary: We break the serial episode down with the author and talk craft, upping our serial fiction game together. Pump get lost in serial fiction and meet some amazing authors along the way to get you reading and writing cereal. So hop on over to serial fiction, show.com and check it out. We hope to see you there. [00:01:45] Stephen: welcome to another great episode of discovered word Smiths, and there's a great guest today. She has a. Interesting life let's say with her not only her authorship, but her three kids, two of which are on the spectrum and her books are inspired by and also meant to help with families, with kids on the spectrum. [00:02:07] Stephen: So it's a great talk, great books to check out. Everybody should go learn a little more about dealing with these issues and it would probably make the world a lot better. And I think Mary Elizabeth is trying. To help us all do that. You also may notice that I have several episodes I've been releasing each week. [00:02:28] Stephen: That's because this fall I've had such an influx of people for interviews, new authors, authors, I've already talked to a chapter reads, I'm doing the panels, uh, just a whole bunch of stuff. So. I've started releasing two a week for a while to catch up because I don't want all the authors sitting and waiting for three, four months until their, their interview comes out. [00:02:55] Stephen: So that's why we might have a few more than just the one. So anyway, uh, let's move on with the talk and here's Mary Elizabeth. All right. So today, uh, on discovered wordsmiths, we have Mary Elizabeth, some Mary. Hi, it's great to see you. How are you doing? [00:03:12] Mary: I am doing fantastic. So glad to be on here with you. [00:03:15] Mary: Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it. [00:03:18] Stephen: Great. No problem. It's good to see you to talk to you. So I want to find out all about you and your book. Let's start a little bit with you. Tell us who you are and where you live a little bit about your life outside of writing. [00:03:29] Mary: Ah, okay. I live in Northeast Nashville, so I'm really close to music city and [00:03:36] Stephen: literally. [00:03:38] Mary: Oh, really? Where are you? Picked a terrible weekend to be here with all through, [00:03:42] Stephen: but I was inside at an author conference, a really good conference.

Overview Mary Elizabeth shares the wisdom she's learned through writing her books. Her advice is pertinent to all writers, especially when she talks about publishing independently versus trying to get published traditional. We discuss various aspects of the differences and pros/cons of which choice that you make when publishing. YouTube https://youtu.be/34sLLI6n01Q Transcript [00:00:50] Stephen: Let's talk a little author stuff, but let's, we've talked the books. So hopefully we got some people reading it. So you've written several now through the last couple of years, what are some lessons you've learned writing from when you started to now? [00:01:08] Mary: Oh, my gosh. I've learned so much. It's amazing. It's like you, you started kindergarten and now you're in college. It's such a journey for writing and nobody's journey is the same. And just in the time period from the very first book, if I wrote it in 2013, I was connected with who turned out to be my co-writer for the next two books we met in 2015 to 2016. [00:01:31] Mary: We got it. Published a contract in 2017. It was released. So it's a long journey in there. I think I've learned more about what works and doesn't work in a book what's attractive to readers. I hope so. At least we try to be a good writer and learn those things and what, what is going to appeal to a reader because you want your books to be out there and people to buy them. [00:01:52] Mary: But I, you really have to research what are you in this for? Because unless you have, and this is just the truth about it, unless you have lots and lots of money. You can't go into this going, oh, I'm going to write a book. It's going to go on the shelf out of a, make a million dollars. There's so much more that goes to, it goes along with it. [00:02:14] Mary: So that's, I want to parse that bubble there because it is not the truth at all. And you need to have a five-year plan, I think, going into it. Where do you want to be in five years for your. With your books or as an author, my journey has so much that came into it that I never even saw was going to happen. [00:02:33] Mary: And I'm so grateful for it, but research whether to be traditionally published or self-published. And I say that even more now, today, because I just went through being a part of two anthologies that were published. They were self published and in eight hours, 29 women. And not even all of us participated all it's all the ladies, not all of them participated I did, but within eight hours we went to a number one best-selling Amazon book and stayed in the top 10 for two weeks. [00:03:06] Mary: I'm not sure where we are today. Cause I haven't looked. Yeah, it changes all the time. It changes hourly. I actually, with, with Amazon's algorithm. It's so interesting. I, because I have worked with someone who's traditionally published, she's actually getting ready to publish his 33rd book. And so his mindset is totally traditional route that's that's he will not do anything else. [00:03:29] Mary: That's where he is. And that's okay. Because that's worked for him really well. But then I go through this experience and I see what happened and with the support. So support is very important. If you're going to be a writer, if you are by yourself and putting a book out there, you're going to it's, you're going to struggle unless you have got a lot of support and people who will. [00:03:51] Mary: And, uh, share your book on Facebook and recommend it to others and post those links for you. And that is one of the most valuable things that you need as an author is to have that support system of those around you and networking so that when you meet folks like Terry Shepherd, for instance, right, then you share things with each other, Hey, will you share this for me? [00:04:13] Mary: And what can I share for you? And it's a win-win for everybody, but you need to. Research about getting traditionally published,

  Summary: Mary has long term recovery and works as a LADC licensed addiction councilor for the center for drugs and alcohol and works as on-call chaplain. She leads spirituality groups with persons in recovery. Our discussion on procrastination is a response to stress because of a lack of clarity. It also is a response to anxiety and uncertainty, or not knowing the next steps to take. Whether it is a response to calling a bill collector, having a difficult conversation, or cleaning house, we all fall into procrastinating something. When it becomes chronic then we may need professional help, but when it is a poor habit, we can correct it by awareness and taking a small action to get motivated. Being willing to look at the deeper reason we procrastinate is key. [00:00:00] Vicky: Hello, Mary. Glad to have you here with me. [00:00:04] Mary Carlson: Hi, Vicky. [00:00:05] Vicky: Great to have you. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are? [00:00:12] Mary: My name is Mary Carlson. I am born and raised in Cloquet, Minnesota and really haven't lived anywhere outside of this area. Right now, I am employed as a casual LADC, licensed addiction counselor for the center for drugs and alcohol. Then also, I work as an on-call chaplain at Essentia Health in Duluth; stay pretty busy. I'm also a woman in recovery, so taking care of my recovery is important to me. I am married. We have a little dog here, her name is Bailey. I have four children; three biological children and one bonus child, I call him. He's our oldest child. We have nine grandchildren. Stay really busy just with life stuff. [00:01:05] Vicky: It sounds like it. Between counseling and your ministry, being a chaplain, that's interesting combination. [00:01:15] Mary: It is. I've actually never worked as a counselor in a field having to do all the work that counselors do because they do a lot of paperwork. When I went to school to become a chaplain, I learned early on that in order to do any kind of a group in a treatment center that I had to be a licensed counselor. That's mainly why I got my license for counseling is because I couldn't do a group without one. The groups that I've done with people for the last 20 years have been primarily spirituality groups, not religious groups; I like to make that clear. I even make that clear to my group because, unfortunately, it seems as if religion is brought up, there's usually an argument. The groups I do with people are more about finding what's in them, the worthiness in them, especially to remain-- like to find a place in sobriety, how to use that part as a strength to keep them going and recovery. [00:02:17] Vicky: Wonderful. Our topic today is procrastination, is it a problem or a response? [laughter] I think for me it can be both, right? First, it's a response and then it becomes the problem, I think. What triggers procrastination for you do you think? [00:02:38] Mary: Different things trigger procrastination for me and different times in life-- sometimes I'll procrastinate-- Well, I guess the biggest thing for me that causes me to procrastinate is not knowing what I'm doing, the fear of not knowing what I'm doing, not being really clear on it. For example, I knit and crochet. If I hit a part in the pattern that I'm not familiar with like I have to do this little mental gymnastics to get myself to pick it up and work through it. The funny thing is, once I get to it and work through it, it's fine. Just getting myself to that place to actually pick it up because I just-- I don't know, there's something about my brain that wants to shut off if I'm not real clear. I've noticed that throughout different situations in my life too. If I'm going to walk into a situation and I don't have a real clear understanding of what's going to happen in that situation, it causes me a little bit of angst. [00:03:38] Vicky: Yes, so connected to lack of clarity and maybe some anxiety around the uncertainty. [00:03:46] Mary: Definitely, yes. I think maybe even a little deeper is thinking that I should be able to just do it all. I should just be able to whip through this knitting, it shouldn't have to be a problem that I have to pay attention. [00:03:57] Vicky: That I think is an important point. We expect so much of ourselves. [00:04:02] Mary: Yes. [00:04:04] Vicky: What feelings cascade from procrastination? [00:04:08] Mary: Mostly, I think dread. I think I could link exhaustion to that because every time that thought comes into my mind that I should be doing it and then I shut it down, it just makes me tired. The funny thing is, I can remember having a lot of procrastinating maybe looking for a different job or talking to somebody that I don't feel like talking to, so finding every single reason I can to put that off. Then I finally come to the point where I have to do it and I do it and I'm like, "Why did I wait so long?" You know? [00:04:57] Vicky: Right. I love that dread feeling that we get, and it's an energy suck, isn't it? [00:04:54] Mary: Yes, huge energy, for sure. [00:04:59] Vicky: What do you observe about yourself and others when they're procrastinating? [00:05:04] Mary: When I procrastinate, I feel like I get into a place where I just sit and spin. I may have one particular issue that I'm procrastinating on but it starts this cascade effect. It's almost at times can be paralyzing depending on what the situation is and how hard I am working on procrastinating because I think that is a conscious effort. It comes to mind, "I don't want to do it, I'm going to put it off to the side," and it keeps bouncing back and you keep putting it off and it bounces back. [00:05:41] Vicky: That spinning, especially as it's something more important and it's looming larger and larger, then I start freezing up on everything. That physical response of fight or flight or freeze; for me, I'll start to be freeze. I think that's in response to, "I would flight if I could. Nowhere to run to, it's coming down the pipe and I see it coming. Oh my God, here we go." Do you find that you procrastinate less as years of your recovery have gone by, or is it still show up frequently? [00:06:18] Mary: I think procrastinate less just because I've learned. In anything that we do, we recognize a pattern. If you start to pay attention-- or I should say, if I start to pay attention, I can usually recognize those patterns. I always tell people, "We don't change anything until we really see it." Sometimes it takes a while to see it, even if it keeps bumping me in the head, you know what I mean? Now I can recognize that as, "Oh, I'm putting something off," you know what I mean? [00:06:52] Vicky: Label it correctly. [00:06:54] Mary: Yes, "I know what this feeling is." [00:06:57] Vicky: Yes, that goes along, I can so relate because it used to be just of a generalized feeling of, "Yuck," and knowing I was wanting to dodge something but not-- like you're saying no clarity of even what I was trying to avoid does like-- [00:07:14] Mary: Yes, or that you were avoiding something. [00:07:16] Vicky: Right, and now to be able to label that. [00:07:19] Mary: It makes me think of the fifth step because I've been talking a lot about the fifth step to people-- not the fifth step, six and seven. Step six and seven, you know the our character defects? So many times for me, my character defect is a reaction. It's like a survival skill to something that's   going on deeper within me. The trick is to recognize that I-- "Oh, yes, anger, sloth," those are a couple of my procrastination character defects. Then going, "Okay, what's deeper? What's deeper than that?" and to start looking a little deeper into what's going on. [00:07:59] Vicky: The motivating factor to want to avoid in the first place. I am afraid of not being good enough? Am I afraid of rejection? Am I afraid of being punished because I made a mistake and that's my belief system, that mistakes get punished or? [00:08:20] Mary: Yes, that deeper intrinsic stuff that we carry that we're not even aware of, it shows up as character defects. [00:08:28] Vicky: Right, on the unconscious level. What tips do you have to deal with anxiety and fear before you're tempted to procrastinate? I'm sure like me you can start to sense it coming, like, "Oh, this is a pattern that I'd like you to talk about. I would normally procrastinate this,"   calling this bill collector or having this difficult conversation with my child or scrubbing the bathroom, which I hate, or whatever. [laughs] [00:08:56] Mary: Whatever, yes. I think it comes down to that same tool again of recognizing that I'm doing it again. Then I guess the other part is being more gentle to myself because I have a tendency to be really cruel to myself because if I'm not doing it right, I'm usually some kind of an idiot, and I have a whole gamut of names I call myself; even becoming aware of that and paying attention to that. [00:09:22] Vicky: You and I have been in recovery for a long time now. I was amazed in the last year in particular how much that judge still operates. [00:09:32] Mary: Oh, huge. [00:09:34] Vicky: Yes. The value of being able to identify it and talk it out with somebody else, to even say, "Hey, there you are. I see you, and I hear what you're saying, and thank you for sharing, but please be quiet now." [00:09:48] Mary: Yes, "Go find something else to do." I think that that judge during this time especially this COVID time, lockdown, and just the last four years, that judge has becomes such a huge part of our culture because there's no gray area left in life anymore; it's either you're right or I'm right. There's no give or take under-- even trying to understand, even with the procrastination stuff is like having some empathy for yourself and some understanding that usually when we procrastinate on doing something, there's an underlying reason. It might be that day that just that I'm being lazy. In a bigger scheme and a bigger picture, there might be something deeper in there that maybe needs some exploring, but to have that kindness to yourself and to recognize that. It's funny because I really-- and maybe I still hang onto that whole belief that life is just supposed to be so hunky-dory and everything's happy and I'm always smiling and life is good. The reality is, life is life and there's probably as much pain in this life as there is good. How do you walk through that, especially when we're in that place of being so cruel to ourselves? How do we have any kind of empathy or mercy for ourselves? [00:11:18] Vicky: I think what I've learned and I think you have too, those are the times to reach out to a friend and get that support. You mentioned not being clear, I can't remember how many times I'd reach out to talk to my mentor and she would say, "Well, you don't have enough information yet," and I was like, "Oh, oh." [00:11:40] Mary: That's the value of having a mentor, a sponsor, someone else in your life. I remember early on when Brené Brown wrote her first book, I went to one of her workshops, and this book was on shame. One of the things she talked about is that we should all have a shame buddy so that when that voice starts out in our head, we can have someone to check it out with who understands that voice. [00:12:06] Vicky: That concept, that is so important, to be able to help you shift from, "Oh, this is who I am. Identify that I'm a bad person because shame takes over that way," to, "Oh, I'm experiencing shame and is it legitimate in this circumstance?" [00:12:24] Mary: Right. That's another part, is understanding my shame language. [00:12:28] Vicky: Shame will shut me down, I know that. I'll practice avoidance big time if I'm in my shame part. [00:12:35] Mary: Right. Think about procrastination and-- especially like things like the bathroom, who loves cleaning the bathroom? You put it off, and then shame jumps in and says, like, "You lazy sloth." "No, I just don't want to do it today." [00:12:51] Vicky: Not my cup of tea today. Our program talks a lot about taking action; to get unstuck, you just need to take action, and even a small step can lead to another step to another step. Is there any other tools that you use to get unstuck? [00:13:06] Mary: I think that especially when I think about early on in recovery, and you just addressed it as having that other person to talk to, and I'm so grateful I had the people around me in recovery to listen to me while I muddled through all these beliefs I had. It took many conversations with many people listening to me talk about the same thing before I finally came to a conclusion on it. Even in procrastination, if it's something that keeps showing up that you're not doing, maybe have a conversation with somebody you trust, like, "Why am I so not willing to do this? What's holding me back?" [00:13:50] Vicky: Resistance, identify it. [00:13:53] Mary: This way I've learned, get through those things is to talk about them. That I don't have the answers in my head usually. [00:14:00] Vicky: Right. I've noticed about myself that if I start pulling back and withdrawing, I might need a good cry about something. I don't like to be vulnerable, but it's amazing now I've recognized, "Call somebody, have that cry, get it over with it," it clears the energy out around whatever it is. [00:14:22] Mary: So true, so very true. [00:14:25] Vicky: Do you think perfectionism has any part in procrastination? [00:14:30] Mary: I know it does in my procrastination because I think I talked about it earlier, thinking that like I had to understand everything and know how to do it before I even entered into whatever it was I was doing, like the pattern in the crocheting or whatever, that part that makes me think that, "I can't make a mistake. I can't do this wrong," huge. I think the two Ps probably are intertwined. [00:14:55] Vicky: I think so too. Digging deeper we focus on the impact on our mental and physical health, what costs are we paying when we stay stuck and resist growing. [00:15:06] Mary: The price we're paying is we don't go anywhere. I know for a woman living in recovery, it's real easy to go backwards by just avoiding that stuff. I can think about that in terms of relationships that I would get into that were so harmful, but my complete unwillingness and inability, and people would even get mad and say, "What are you staying there for?" My inability to see the reason that it was as bad as other people saw it, maybe that's it. There's this disconnect, I think, especially in relationships. What I found for me is this was part of doing a fourth-step with my former marriage is that there were a lot of things I did to survive in that marriage and to keep marriage the way I thought it should be because I was married to this human being that I thought I saw all these qualities in; however, those qualities would never show. His behaviors were completely contrast to what I thought I saw in him. In doing that, my sponsor had me write a letter to him, not to give to him but just write a letter to him, and identify every place in that marriage that I did things to cause the marriage harm. I think I was far enough along where I was able to really look and see. What I realized is the things that I expected him to be when he wasn't able to be that, were also very shaming to him and it led to a lot of his behaviors. Does that make sense? [00:16:46] Vicky: It does. [00:16:46] Mary: It helped me to forgive myself because I didn't see it in me, and it helped me to forgive him because I saw how painful that must have been to him. [00:16:58] Vicky: You just touched on something for me that causes me still to procrastinate. I don't like endings, any kind of ending. If it's a season, summer is ending and it's coming to fall; if it's a relationship; a job. The idea that everything has its time and its place, man, I'll hang on as long as I can, that's important. As we know, my show's based on small changes that lead to big shifts. What small changes could you recommend for our audience to help them get unstuck? [00:17:34] Mary: I guess the thing that's been most helpful to me is starting to pay attention to myself and my patterns. For example, in procrastination, if there's something that keeps popping up that isn't getting done, then it's time to stop and go, "Oh, okay, what's this about?" It may not be anything at all, really, but it might be something core to you. Until we start paying attention to ourselves and giving ourselves some time and some energy like we would put into our jobs, in our relationships and stuff like that, we'll never learn those things about ourselves. I think that's probably one of the biggest things I've learned to do is to start stepping back and go, "Okay, what is this?" [00:18:16] Vicky: Take an inventory of it, really admit it. [crosstalk] [00:18:19] Mary: Yes, and a kind inventory also; not just sit back and go, "Now I'm sitting here and not getting that done again. What's wrong with me?" It might not be anything wrong, it might just be-- who knows? To give ourselves that time. [00:18:35] Vicky: Curiosity, I heard you say empathize with yourself, be curious about what is this, instead of blaming and shaming ourselves say, "What is there?" There might be something that-- your inner voice, I've found sometimes is telling me, "I was going to sign up for a class not that long ago. I had the link open I don't know how many times and didn't click and register. When I paused and said, "What's that about?" just like you said, I didn't really want to go into the class. If I would have been on automatic behavior, I would've-- [00:19:13] Mary: I used to do the automatic thing a lot, I used to just jump into stuff and not give it any thought at all. [00:19:20] Vicky: Right, go from procrastination to jump both feet in, off we go. [00:19:25] Mary: Then procrastinate because you jumped in. [laughter] [00:19:30] Vicky: Being present, today you mentioned that. Do you have any services or programs that you like to promote? I always give people an opportunity to promote if they have their own business, something that they want to have people participate in, or a Facebook group they'd love to have people join. [00:19:49] Mary: No, not at this time. I don't have anything of my own. [00:19:53] Vicky: Wonderful. Thank you so much for being here, Mary. I've enjoyed our conversation. I really value your friendship. [00:19:59] Mary: Thanks for inviting me. [00:20:00] Vicky: I value that. I know we're going to collaborate and work together on some things in the future. [00:20:06] Mary: Yes, so maybe I could promote those because I'm on the same page. I have as much respect for you as I heard you say you have for me. It's fun to be on this path together. [00:20:20] Vicky: It definitely is, it definitely is. To me, that's really the value of recovery over time, is those relationships that we form with other people that uplift us, inspire us, and move us forward. I'm thinking not thinking that it has to be a big job or career or move us forward in-- [00:20:43] Mary: In life. [00:20:44] Vicky: Yes. Being kind to ourself, being loving to our family, loving to ourselves. [00:20:49] Mary: I think there's a part two about be it recovery, be it healing, whatever it is, but there's a common language that we speak. [00:20:58] Vicky: Yes, most definitely. Thank you again for being here. [00:21:04] Mary: Thank you. [00:21:05] Vicky: To my audience, I will say thank you so much for being here with us and sharing today. If you enjoyed the show, please like and leave a review. I love to get emails from my audience, so keep sending them to info@[unintelligible 00:21:18].com. Tell me what matters to you because I want to provide content that makes a difference for you. As we leave, remember, you create your beautiful life one moment, one step at a time. Bye now.

Its been awhile! sorry for the delay, but we are back! In this episode we discuss the delay in episodes and then get into RFTA news. Roman talks about disneyland and Dan reads a few pages from a book called the Hiram Key that talks about Jesus and family lines as well as the creation of the church. Then we get into our chat with Vlynn and Mic from The Patriot Party Podcast. check us out here: IG: rftapodcast linktree: http://linktr.ee/RisingftAshes  Email: risingftashes@yahoo.com  Be sure to check them out here: Telegram at: https://t.me.qvlynnqplan 
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Mary Patrick is CEO and Managing Partner at Jasculca Terman (JT) Strategic Communications, a 40-year-old public affairs firm that provides issue education and crisis management and builds support for its clients' controversial legislative, regulatory, and public policy issues.  Over the past few years, crisis management has been close to 50% of the firm's business. “Topping the list” over this past year were Covid and social issues, but the agency's scope is broad: workforce and labor issues, leadership misconduct, immigration, environment, non-Covid healthcare, protest and rally management, and contentious leadership changes . . . anything where there is controversy or two or more sides to a story. Organizations might engage JT at any time – when they want to plan ahead to avert potential problems, when they know something is coming and want to put the key pieces in place to manage it, or . . . when the news chopper is overhead and news media are banging on the door. Mary believes storytelling is the most important tool in JT's arsenal. She advises organizations to be the first to tell their stories. Even if news is “bad,” being first to talk about it provides the opportunity to better define your narrative, bring forth your mission, present your position, and paint the picture, making it “resonant and memorable.” Story “examples” showing the human-interest side of an issue are most compelling. “People remember how an issue impacts a person or a family, or I guess even the world,” she says. JT comes with a full toolbox and creates for its clients a lot of videos (some even award-winning), infographics, animations, social posts on all platforms, vignettes, testimonials. and talking points. Stories are also communicated directly in person, through Zoom, and in written material.  The firm's major events division brings people together with turnkey, end-to-end solutions – from booking venues and speakers, planning breakout sessions, and providing all levels of seamless, onsite technical support. Covid and “going virtual” meant the firm had to add an additional technological layer. Does the client need their event to be interactive? How will people raise a hand, ask a question, put things in the chat? What needs to be done to keep “zoomed out” audiences interested and engaged? The most challenging PR question? What can an organization do when things have gone catastrophically bad and the story has gotten really big? Who should the organization contact directly to help people understand its perspective, its point of view, the scope of the issue, and what the organization is doing about it? When is “strategic silence” appropriate?  Handling this kind of crisis is where JT excels. Mary says there are times when mistakes have been made or things have gone bad for an individual or organization, and the entity (or JT on its behalf) has to own the responsibility, apologize, and tell people what will be done to correct the situation. . . if it wants to rebuild trust and credibility. “You can never say that it'll never happen again,” Mary warns. Mary can be reached on the Jasculca Terman website at JTPR.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Mary Patrick, who is the CEO and Managing Partner at Jasculca Terman Strategic Communications based in Chicago, Illinois. Welcome to the podcast, Mary. MARY: Thanks, Rob. ROB: It's good to have you here. Why don't you start off with a little bit of an introduction of Jasculca Terman and the focus of the firm? Where do you all excel?  MARY: Sure. Jasculca Terman Strategic Communications – and we'll make it easy for everybody; we typically call ourselves JT – JT was founded by Rick Jasculca and Jim Terman 40 years ago this year. We're a public affairs firm, which means we focus on issues like legislative, regulatory, public policy, areas where there might be controversy or two sides. We do a lot of educating around issues, and we do a lot of crisis management work. I would say over the last few years, crisis management has been at least 50%, maybe more, of our business. ROB: Wow. MARY: Big picture, to describe us, I would say what our superpower is, what we're great at, is storytelling. That's how we look at the world. Storytelling in all its forms and all its situations. You can imagine, for instance, over the last year, if we are doing a lot of crisis management work, we've been working on COVID in all its iterations. We've had a lot of social justice issues that our clients are managing and trying to communicate around. Those currently top the list, but we have several crisis projects that don't touch either of those issues – things like workforce and labor issues, maybe misconduct by a leader. We've done a lot of work in the immigration space, in the environment, in other aspects of healthcare besides COVID. We've helped people handle protests and rallies and controversial leadership changes and a whole lot more. But storytelling is really where we excel, and we look at it, honestly, as defining the narrative on your terms. It's about bringing your mission, your position to life and really painting a picture, making it resonant and memorable. And we think examples really make a difference, especially the human interest side of an issue or what you're trying to do. Those are the most compelling. Those are the most connecting. Those are the things people remember: how an issue impacts a person or a family, or I guess even the world. And we tell those stories through a variety of vehicles. We have an in-house creative director and video producer, so we produce a lot of videos – some even award-winning. We use infographics and animations. We do social posts on all different platforms. We create vignettes and testimonials and talking points. We have a major events division, and we see that as a really important companion in terms of our public affairs work bringing people together. And of course, that has pivoted to also doing actually quite a few virtual events in the last year and a half. The other way we tell stories is directly in person or through Zoom, and of course, with the written word. We obviously put a lot of stock in what we write and those kinds of materials. ROB: Dig in a little bit on – during normal times, and maybe coming up, what does an event that you're involved in, that JT puts on, look like? What's an example or a big picture, at least, of who it's for, who comes to it, that kind of thing? MARY: We're working on a major event right now for a major not-for-profit that focuses on women's issues. They've done this for years in person, and it draws 2,000 people. The issues around missing that level of networking and how we bring that back through a virtual lens – they have a major speaker who I can't share yet, but they have a major speaker who we will bring in via satellite. There will be breakout rooms so people can have a little bit of that experience of networking with each other. We helped them produce some video vignettes around the women who have received grants through this organization for the amazing work they're doing in a variety of spaces. We'll package that all – our team works with a variety of platforms, depending on a client's needs. Do we need an event to be interactive? Are there places where people will be able to raise a hand, ask a question, put things in the chat? All those aspects are considered as we pull these things together. And what we've discovered in the many events that we've been doing over the last 16 months during COVID is that interaction is important. Visuals are important. Getting a lot of variety, so you've got some live components and then you also have some prerecorded components. Making it as interesting as possible for people who are experiencing Zoom fatigue at best. ROB: Got it. It really is turnkey, end-to-end. In normal times you're talking about everything from booking a venue, booking speakers, planning for breakout sessions in reality. It sounds like a turnkey, end-to-end, and very complicated situation. And then to also have to turn around and evolve that online while you're at it. MARY: Exactly. I think it's all about asking the right questions and really thinking about what it is our client is trying to accomplish with an event and managing all the logistics that go into pulling that together seamlessly, smoothly, and mainly, if we do our job right, then you're just troubleshooting the live aspects. And putting the technology into the middle of it in the last 16 months, there's an extra level of holding our breath a little bit. [laughs] But we've got some terrific people in-house who have really pivoted very well, and our event business is as strong as it's ever been, which has been in some respects a surprise to me. ROB: I'm sure when we dig into the crisis side a little bit, that seems like every day could be a fresh and new surprise and an opportunity to jump in. What does the life cycle of a crisis look like for you? MARY: Everyone is different, and people bring you in at different times. We have actually worked with clients who want to plan ahead, which we think is a great idea. That's even before the beginning of a crisis, when a client is thinking about their potential vulnerabilities and what they want to put in place so that they wouldn't have to scramble at the last minute. We've come in at that time. We've come in when someone knows something is coming and they're anticipating it and they want to plan for the real event and put all the key pieces in place. We've been called when the news chopper is overhead or the media is already knocking on the online door, asking the client for comment or pointing out the tough issues. And we've also been called when a client had thought or hoped that they could manage it internally, and a couple days into it they realize that they really could use some outside expertise. There are some wonderful, wonderful organizations, corporations, that have terrific communications staff, but a lot of the communications staff doesn't have crisis experience. So we often work hand in hand with an in-house communications team, helping them manage the crisis with the expertise that we can bring to the table. And it starts with asking all the right questions and thinking about scope and scale and audiences and who we can try to get to, to share your story before things get really big in the media. If things have already gotten big in the media, who do we need to reach out to directly to help make sure people understand your perspective, your point of view, the actual scope of the issue, and especially what you're doing about it. There are absolutely times when things have gone bad for someone, or mistakes are made, and you have to step up and own them. You have to step up and apologize for them. If you want to build back trust and credibility, you have to tell people what you're going to do. You can never say that it'll never happen again. ROB: [laughs] Can we highlight that and tell people that? Because some people want you to guarantee it will never happen again. MARY: Right. We're very careful about how we talk about that. But we do help a client put as many things in place to hopefully avoid it happening again. ROB: I think in any firm, there's a potential for conflicts between individual people on the team and the clients. You can imagine a marketing firm where someone's an ethical vegetarian; they have to market for a hamburger chain. These things happen. But here in your world, where you're talking about things where, as you say, stuff is out in the media, it seems to an extent unavoidable that your team and you – bringing your whole self to work – will have feelings about a topic that might be in tension with a client. How do you think about that / handle that? Does it impact who gets work on what client? MARY: Generally, I think everyone who works at JT believes in this idea that everyone should have a chance to tell their story. JT is 40 years old; I've been there for 36 of those 40 years, and in those 36 years, I've only been part of probably two experiences – and it wasn't even me – where we were working on issues that people either had a strong feeling that they could not represent a client as well, or they'd had a personal experience that made them feel they could not tell the story for the client just based on what the client was dealing with. But that's two experiences in 36 years. ROB: It resonates with the similar role of – not to say that someone's charged with a crime, but the defense attorney and the public defender. There is a right to being represented fairly and accurately. You did reference – I think it's interesting – that you've been with the firm 36 out of the 40 years. It's notable that you are not Jasculca or Terman, but you are the CEO and managing partner. How did you come to be involved? And how did you end up in charge? MARY: When I got out of college – I studied PR and communications at Miami University, and I thought as I was studying it that what I really wanted to do is agency work. I sort of thought that was the only path. Literally maybe a month before I got out of school, I went to some presentation or lecture where someone was talking about not-for-profit PR. It opened my eyes. I started to realize that agencies aren't the only place to practice; there are people who do PR for hospitals, for universities, for not-for-profits. I decided that what really interested me was the not-for-profit side. So when I moved to Chicago – and this will tell you how very, very old I am – I literally went to the library to look up all the not-for-profits that had headquarters in Chicago. I sent them my letters and I pitched them and called them, and my first job was with the American Red Cross in their Midwest chapter downtown. In my first year of being there as the Public Affairs Blood Services Specialist, the AIDS crisis hit. You can imagine what sort of baptism by fire that was for a 23-year-old fresh out of college, dealing suddenly with the safety and sanctity of the volunteer blood supply as it related to AIDS. I ended up doing lots of interviews and essentially learning, by being in it, how a crisis works. Our job was to keep people continuing to voluntarily donate their blood, because it very, very, very much matters in terms of the health of the world. And people were afraid. AIDS was so linked to needles and so linked to blood. So that was my first taste of this issues management piece, and I really found that I liked it a lot. So when I was thinking about a next step, I looked at agencies that were smaller and that might have some sort of political or cause-related path. I honestly, truly lucked into JT in its – I guess it wouldn't be infancy. In its toddlership. It was four years old. It was smaller then. I really got the ability to grow and then eventually help shape the agency over the years. And I think what keeps people there – I'm not the only one with such longevity. We have a number of people at our firm that have been there for 20 years or more. And its' honestly because of two major things. One is the people at JT, who are incredible and brilliant and strategic and passionate and compassionate. I think that's what really makes the firm. And secondly the variety of issues. As you said, sometimes you don't know what you're doing day to day. That's been 36 years for me. I mean, I think I know some days, but there's going to be a twist or a turn, or there's going to be something that comes up, a new issue to manage or a new way that someone has impacted what you're working on, and you need to address it. That variety, that adrenaline, and the people are what keeps us there. ROB: What did that transition look like from the original partners to – it seems like they're probably less involved now than they were initially. How did that manifest itself? MARY: Interestingly, that's not true. Most people assume that, and in fact, when my announcement went out when I became the CEO, we made sure that front and center, people knew that Rick and Jim weren't going anywhere, not even partially. They remain heavily, integrally involved. I've had a lot of people outside of the firm say, “Oh my God, don't you wish you could get those guys out of there?” And I don't wish that at all. They're fantastic and smart and supportive, and have been very, very good to me in terms of letting me lead and stepping back from those issues, but still with a great passion and drive to do the work. It's been a really wonderful experience for me. I've worked at every level of the firm, and as – the partners would probably kill me for saying this, but once they turned 70, they really felt like they needed to take a look at what was next and how the firm should be led going forward. So I've been the CEO and managing partner for a little over three years. ROB: That is excellent. Thank you for clarifying. Congratulations. It reminds me, actually, in some ways of an agency I know of in Atlanta called Nebo. These two guys started it together, and they had someone who came up through the business, and they put this awesome woman in charge as their president even though she didn't start the thing. I think they have benefitted from it, probably much as you have. And not for nothing, I think it has also really helped their entire organization to feel like they have a little bit more balanced leadership and it's not just two guys running the show. There's a woman in power all the way up to the top. MARY: I think that's true, and I think both J and T have always been very supportive of growing people internally. And again, that's why people stay as long as they have. I can't honestly think of a time in the recent past where we brought someone in at a high level. Our high level people are homegrown. And even when we're hiring an AE, it usually comes from our intern pool. When we're adding to the team, it's usually folks that have done some work with us. In the past, one of our more recent hires was an intern with us, went off and did something else for a couple years, and came back. We didn't have a job for her at the time when her internship was completed, but when we did, there she was. It's that training and that passion and, again, working with a group of people that really support each other and have the clients' best interest at heart. ROB: Got it. Mary, as you reflect on that journey, your past few years particularly in charge, but certainly all along the way, I'm sure it's been a journey of growth. What are some things you have learned in leading JT – some lessons you might've done differently if you were starting over today? MARY: I've given that a little bit of thought. There's so many things I've learned over the years – mainly, again, from my wonderful colleagues at JT, and often from clients and the issues that they entrust to us. Frankly, I say this all the time, but I actually mean it. It's true and authentic that I'm still learning every day, because the issues we manage and the crises we work on really test our skill, can often surprise you and can certainly stretch those strategic muscles. Obviously, over the years, social media has really changed the practice, often for the better but sometimes not so much. We're dealing with lots of issues right now that start in social media, and it's misinformation. In the past, you didn't have that as much because news was supposed to be vetted. People had a news cycle to confirm or test information. Those are newer and different challenges. The shrinking traditional newsrooms play a big role in how we approach media. The whole “it bleeds, it leads” mentality and “the first to get the scandal out there” has made our jobs different and more difficult. I guess one very key learning which is fundamental – I hope I grasped it from the beginning, but I may not have – is this idea of telling your story first. Even if it's bad. Your ability to shape and control the narrative is very important. So whenever you can, as much as you can, playing offense rather than defense is important. Another tried and true colloquialism around the office is that trouble fills a vacuum. We've learned and we've seen with our clients that if they put their head down and pretend something's not there, then someone else is going to define the story for them, and it's not going to be, generally, the way you want it to be. So again, getting out there first and defining things. And then a mistake that I feel like I made that I learned a lot from, and I thus far have not made it again – I worked on a project once where I never met the CEO, who was ultimately going to be the main speaker at a press conference that we were pulling together. Then the press conference that we had planned got overrun by protestors. It was a fairly controversial issue that was going to be shared. The mayor of Chicago at the time was going to be part of our press conference, and these protestors really took over at our venue. When that happened, I had no credibility with the leader because honestly, I'd never met her. So in a time of great turmoil and when there was a need for a lot of debate and conversation and decisions, she didn't trust me because she didn't know me. I mean, how could she, right? And so I vowed that I would never let that happen again, and it hasn't. ROB: That's such a good point, too: the value of relationship with clients, the value of investing, the value of having that connection. You do highlight something that plays very much also into the future of PR and marketing as well. I think it used to be, to an extent – and you know better than I do – most controversies that got any legs had some degree of substance to them. It almost seems like now, there are secret rooms on the internet where people just make up stuff for fun and see what sticks. Do you feel like that's an actual trend? Is that something you think is growing or shrinking, or is maybe overblown? MARY: Oh, absolutely. I don't know how to judge these back room making-up-things, but I will say that we have managed a number of issues that started with literally completely false information. Just completely false. And because it struck a chord or because people wanted to believe it or something, or God help you, goes viral, it puts a company or an organization or a person in a very, very difficult place. We're often balancing issues of you don't want to give something credibility by having your organization enter into the social media fray, but how far does it go before you have to do something? We actually call it strategic silence. Often, we're going back and forth with boards of an organization, for instance, who are like, “Oh my gosh, why are we not fixing this? Why are we not correcting this?” But you can actually elevate an issue by engaging. So we have to make sure that people understand, no, we're not ignoring it. No, it's not that we don't see it. We're actually making a decision to be strategically silent – to a point. A lot of times in those instances, we try to really think about, who are the audiences that matter most to you? Let's make sure they know the real story. ROB: What a tricky, tricky balance. Mary, when people want to get in touch with you and with JT PR, where should they find you? MARY: Well, you practically almost said it. JTPR.com is our website, and that's where you can learn more about JT and you can see case studies and clients and videos that we've produced and meet the team that makes up Jasculca Terman. ROB: Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Mary, for sharing your expertise, sharing your journey. You have really been a long hauler in building this firm up, and I congratulate you on everything that you've accomplished together. MARY: Thanks so much, Rob. I appreciate it. ROB: All right. Be well. Thanks, Mary. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Most people probably know Cuisinart because of the company's kitchen appliances like the food processor, air fryer, or coffee maker. Cuisinart's products are everywhere — in kitchens around the world, in retail stores, and yes, online. In the last year or so, Cuisinart has put a much greater emphasis on the DTC part of the business -- walking the tightrope of being there for retail partners, while still making sure that there is enough inventory to meet the demand coming from online. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Mary Rodgers, the Director of Marketing Communications for Cuisinart, explains the steps the company took to make the pivot to DTC without leaving retail partners in the lurch. Mary also talked about how the marketing and online pushes for products went from being planned out months in advance to changing from one day to the next. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:From Months To Weeks To Days: Sometimes, the world moves so fast that planning in months-long cycles places you at a disadvantage. When demand, retailer needs, and inventory is shifting at a rapid pace, you need to come up with a plan that allows you to stay ahead of the curve, even if that means changing strategies from one day to the next.Eyes On Your Own Paper: Some brands will look to their competitors to see what influencers they are working with or how they are running their campaigns, and then they will try to copy that approach. While this is tactical, it is not strategic because you are placing blind trust in another brand's team and vision without even knowing if what they did paid off. You have to do your own homework and think about your customers' needs and build a strategy around that rather than just trying to keep up with the Joneses.More Than Just A Product: Brands have to think beyond the products they sell and understand how the customers will be using those products. Often, especially in housewares, consumers will be using one product in concert with another or as part of a recipe. By understanding the life of the consumer beyond purchase and coming up with content to connect with consumers after the fact, brands can create a more fruitful and loyal relationship with their customers.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we're ready for what's next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show, we have Mary Rodgers who currently serves as the director of marketing communications at Cuisinart. Mary, welcome.Mary:Hi, I'm so glad to be here today and join you. I'm really excited about talking all things marketing.Stephanie:Yes. I can not wait. So I'd love to kind of, before we get into Cuisinart and your role there, I want to hear a bit about your background and how you even entered the world of housewares and cookware and all of that.Mary:So back in the day, I actually worked for a retailer and they worked in the housewares department and I went up through the ranks there getting to the level of assistant DM. And so that wasn't my favorite thing is, was involving a lot of scheduling people and logistics. And that was kind of my foray into the home goods' area. And then I also did work for publisher for short period of time because my background was basically literature and journalism up to that point when I was studying in college. And then I transitioned into marketing at that point in the publishing world.Stephanie:Okay, cool. And when did you get introduced to the role at Cuisinart?Mary:So I worked for a company who is much more of a legacy company. I work for a company called Farberware. They were really well known. They had a manufacturing facility in the Bronx. And they basically did everything there. We did product development, engineering. It was a really great learning experience. And my previous boss, I worked for another company called Dansk, who is now owned by Food52, they just bought them recently.Stephanie:Cool.Mary:And my boss there went to Farberware and he asked me to join him there. And then that got sold and dismantled in '96. And I had always had Cuisinart on my radar. I thought it was a really great up and coming young, kind of small organization that I felt had a lot of growth potential, which turned out to be true. And so I actually reached out to them. And I didn't know it at the time, but they were looking to fill a marketing communications position for quite a long time. Their previous person in the job had left. So I was the only candidate. But they loved my background and obviously my experience in housewares and also the fact that I had pretty deep product development experience. That wasn't the direction I wanted to go in permanently. I mean, I'm glad I know that process and I've done it, but my real expertise is marketing communications.Mary:So it's really interesting because when I joined in '96, as you can imagine was very, they really hadn't done any real marketing, not much advertising. They just really were just scrappy entrepreneurs. I think of ourselves, is that still today, but for different reasons. And it was like, the media channels then were like five channels unlike today. So obviously, as you can imagine over time, things have changed dramatically compared to when I first started, when we were so focused on things print advertising. And we matured into things like understanding the value of TV advertising. I actually built a model for the company to show them the impact of TV advertising on sales and trajectory that you can get from that.Mary:And so we forayed into that and really started building out, strengthen multiple channels and not just one. And so, today obviously it's like a whole new world. And I also like to say I consider myself a modern day marketer because there's so many things you have to be, not just aware of, but understand, now that you didn't then. It's kind of like, back in the day, you knew what the impact was on business, but now you really know what it is because you have hard data, where in the past you would rely on your retailers or sell through retailers. And so things are much, much more sophisticated now. And you also have many different avenues to test and learn too.Stephanie:Yeah. Seems like too, over the past couple of years, I mean, especially the past year, I'm sure everything's had to be rethought, replanned and planning cycles kind of go out the window. Annual plans turn into quarterly, turned into daily. And how did you guys adapt to that, the changing consumer preferences of all of a sudden people are at home, they're cooking, they need all the things to make the recipes? And I'm sure a lot of things had to change on your side as well to going to keep up with that.Mary:Yeah. One of the biggest challenges we had in the last, basically year and a half, the challenges are similar now, but for different reasons. So basically, we keep our eye very closely on trends. And when I get up in the morning, I'm reading all kinds of articles and information and just everything changes on a dime now. So you have to be on top of it all the time, but we also started to hear things from our retailers, like they were looking for goods that they maybe weren't looking for before, like bread makers, waffle makers, more coffee makers, coffee grinders because people during the time when lots of places were closed, they still wanted a great cup of coffee. They had to make it for themselves basically.Mary:So what happened for us was, and I'm really very proud of our team on this because it took a lot more effort because in the past we didn't have to worry about like, "We're out of inventory of this, we're out of inventory that. We sold out every last ice cream maker we had." In the past, we always knew we had stock and buffer stock and we never had to drill down. If we knew something was out of stock, it wasn't like 10 or 12 items, might be one-offs or something. So we ended up going from an annual planning phase to quarterly, to monthly, to weekly, to daily. And we spent a lot more time and effort on operational issues, just moving inventory to our D2C business, which became a whole hoo-ha.Mary:And then also just making sure that we had inventory. We at least had certain amount of retailers that had inventory of an item. And with every marketing program we did, we did that. So it took a lot of juggling. We had to push things out. We had to keep our eye on incoming inventory when it was going to be available, when retailers were going to have it. And so it became very tactical to be completely honest with you. Like something that you think is your strategic, but it doesn't matter, at the end of the day, you're going to have all the strategy you want if you don't have the goods, right?Stephanie:Yeah.Mary:And we also, I personally noticed this with some of our retail partners, because a lot of the retail partners in the very beginning went into complete shut down. They shut the stores down. But they can't easily turn things off. And so they were running campaigns for things they had no product, which is the one thing that makes me crazy is to know people are spending time, money, effort, and resources marketing something that you can't sell because you're not going to convert if you don't have it. So whatever data you do get is not going to be very valuable at all. And then it becomes no history. Right?Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).Mary:So you look back at that program, and you're like, "Well, it didn't do well." And then you have to remember all the things around it that happened. The reason why it didn't do well. And then you just wasted a lot of effort for no-Stephanie:No return.Mary:... benefit.Stephanie:Yeah. So when thinking about a daily planning process, what were some of the key lessons when you look back, you're like, "Oh, this would have helped make it easier," and are you still doing that today right now? Because that sounds insane, looking every day at the trends and hearing from the market and being like, "Oh, people want this, and now it's shifting here and we need a marketing campaign around this." And also getting all the backend right and making sure that you've got the inventory and it's all tied together. How would you set it up today? And would you still advise on daily planning processes?Mary:Yeah. So I would say to you, it's not the way we like to do things. But it was just, we just didn't want to be spending time, money, and effort on something that wasn't going to produce for us. So we felt it was necessary. And I would still do it today because we were, I mean, we are nimble. So the fact that we could say, "Hey, bread makers are doing really well right now. Let's make sure we're making people aware that we have bread makers and we're selling them." And I mean, that was not that big of a challenge for us, but when we ran out of bread makers, I had to say to our team, I'm like, "Well, you know what? Even though you don't have a bread maker, you can still mix dough in a food processor or you can use one of our stand mixers." And so change the storyline basically and look at it from a different direction.Mary:Or the other thing we did is when there was a yeast shortage start giving people ideas on other things that you can make that don't have yeast without having to go into the whole sourdough trend which would have been, not exactly making bread today. Right?Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. That's like, making do with what you got and just shifting the storyline. I mean, because I think the amount of searches I've always put in to be the replacement for soy sauce, the replacement for eggs, and really leaning into that trend of being like, "We can't help you here, however, you don't even need that thing. And now maybe you do need it." How do you get your team thinking in that kind of mindset? Because I'm imagining when you come to daily planning processes, you really have to decentralize the entire team structure to let them make these quick moves and throwing campaigns and setting them free to do what they know is best.Mary:Yeah. So I mean, my style, my leadership style, I'm not a micromanager. I don't believe in micromanagement. My personal belief is that when you empower your team to own their business, they're more committed to it. And so that's the approach I take, but I'm definitely involved in all aspects of the business and guiding them in those ways. Trying to help them think a little bit differently about their approach. But at the end of the day, they're the ones coming up with the alternative content based on those comments. I'm not the one doing that. I'm definitely letting them own all of that themselves. And we work with a lot of external agency partners. So we work really, really closely with them and they are also working with each other.Mary:So it's not a siloed system, basically. All our agency partners know each other. We are really good at making sure that we're having constant lines of communication open based on whatever's happening in our business. And also down to any aspect of marketing that we're using to promote product. And then the only thing I would other say is that you had asked me earlier about what's changed compared to last year? So I'm sure you've heard that the marketplace, the supply chain marketplace is still highly disrupted, but for different reasons now. So the reasons now are basically raw material shortages, huge increases in the price of containers, cost of containers.Mary:And most people in the durable goods category, they are bringing goods into the country. And then a lot of people are spending time trying to diversify their supply chain in order that they're not heavily reliant on one point of reference for their goods. But that's also something that can't happen overnight. That's something that has to be, it's long-term. That's a longterm position. But we're already hearing in the marketplace that some competitors are basically not going to have inventory of certain items. It's not going to happen. So we also then look at those opportunities and try to capitalize on those opportunities because if we do have supply of similar product in the same category, we are going to try to help out our retailers and make sure that we get them supply to fill those holes for them. And so our team, we have a decent-sized planning team that work really closely with the division heads to make sure that they're focusing on the items that have the greatest need.Stephanie:So how do you create a open conversation with retailers or other partners to figure out what they're missing? Because it seems like in a way, once you would structure a partnership where they're like, "Oh, you always give me bread makers. That's what I know you for." I would think that they wouldn't think like, "Oh, I should share that I also need this isn't this," because they're so tunnel vision on like, "My partner does this with me." So how do you even go about developing that relationship? Or they will say, "Here's some gaps right now in inventory that we just can't get, can you help us?"Mary:Yeah. I mean, that happened last year. So those conversations were had over the last year and a half. And our sales team works very closely with their retail partners. And so they're having those conversations on an ongoing basis. And it also helps out our retailers and it also instills us as making sure that we're helping them protect their business too, because I'm sure you realize this, if you went around six months ago and you went into some of the retail establishments you would see empty shelves and you would see big places in the home goods' area, where there was not a lot to purchase in person.Mary:And so those are ongoing for us because we also work really close with them planning ahead because encouraging them to make sure that they get their forecasting done months in advance so that we can buy against that forecast and protect their orders so that they have good supplies, especially as we go into the back half of this year, which for us, my team calls it our Super Bowl because that's our peak season basically. And so we want to make sure that all the stars align. And our marketing is pushing the items that we can focus on, but we also make sure that, like I said, inventory is essential for us.Stephanie:Well, if that's so, is there anything, any big bets that you guys have made, or that you're implementing right now, especially around supply chain or something that's just totally different than how you used to do things, and you're not really sure about the outcome, but you think you're ahead of the game? Because I've heard a lot of people come on the show and talk about this as a big issue and there's room for disruption in the whole logistics and supply chain and warehousing and all of that, but I haven't heard many people be like, "We're doing it this way now and it's working." Or, "We're going to explore it this way. And we think there might be opportunity around adjusting these things."Mary:Yeah. I mean, I have those conversations all the time. It's like, "Okay, we need to get our fall marketing plan locked down," because, and you know this, it's not something you turn on in a day. It has to be those big campaigns, tent-pole type things are planned months in advance. And so I was already having those conversations a month ago, basically like, "These are the items I think we should focus on, but I also need to have confidence that we can have product." So we honed in on the items that we're pretty sure that we can generate demand, but also have appropriate supply of goods. And we're also making sure that we are doing some other things which involve our retailers, like aligning our retailers so that they are working in the same playbook we are because it's, I call it compounding interest. That's kind of how I look at it.Mary:I tell our sales team, "Look, if you were smart, you would take advantage of this. This is what we're working on. And we were very transparent about it with our retail partners and our sales team, because the more we're all pushing in the same direction, we are going to be more successful." And we're also doing a lot of other things like digital audits and making sure that our digital shelf, not just for ourselves, but for our retail partners are clean and tidy and neat and organized the right way and they have the right data specs and content and all of the things that they need to make sure that they're successful on their side. So it's not just about the marketing that we're doing, but it's the support that we provide to the sales team and the retail partners that extend basically.Mary:And like I said, I call it compounding because for every one of those partners I can get in line, the more powerful the campaigns are across the board.Stephanie:Yup. I mean, I definitely understand that. It's like, "Why wouldn't you all be kind of rowing towards the same end point? If you guys are having a big campaign push why wouldn't they also invest in the same thing instead of having diverse efforts?" What are some of the biggest gaps that you see on retailer websites when you're saying you want to make sure it's clean and tidy, they have all the right information. What are some big missing pieces that when you go in and you do your digital audits, you're like, "Ah, once again, you're missing this or you're doing it this way. And we know that it's best to do it this way." Because I'm sure you're not the only one who is struggling or finds those kind of things on the retailers websites.Mary:Yeah. So basically our focus has been along naming conventions and search. Those are the two things that we've put a lot of effort into. So on-site search for retailers, every retailer could be using a different partner for search or self-developed search, or however doing it, it's just that, it could be different for every retailer. So that has been a big focus for us. And then the other thing too is making sure that any content that we're developing much more. So in the lifestyle area, that we are making that content available for all of our retailers and sharing out because that's become a big, I don't want to say burden, but it's been, every retailer has different specifications. Like, "I want seven lifestyle images and I want this and I only take this size and only take that size." And just the whole logistics end of it because as retailers are not developing content for every product that they sell on their digital shelf. They're not doing that. They're repurposing content.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, how do you know, first if they're using it, using it in the correct way? And also, do you see them putting their own spin on it? Because there's been a few times when I've seen, maybe I go to Cuisinart and I'm like, "Oh, that was an epic video product placement." I just associate it with you guys potentially. And then maybe I go to, I don't know, HomeGoods and same content. And I go to Macy's, same content. And then you start being like, "Wait, who started this content?" I've seen that happen a few times with brands where they're all reusing the same stuff. Are you encouraging your partners to repurpose it, put your own spin on it, put your own voice on it, use it how you see best fit, or are you just like, "Here's the box that you need to work within?"Mary:Yeah. So how we protect ourselves against that is we develop our own custom content for ourselves. So that's how we set ourselves apart.Stephanie:You're the original. You like [crosstalk]?Mary:Yeah, instead of... I mean, sure, you realize this is duplication of that, it doesn't necessarily help with SEO related things. But retailers have so many products and they're so big. When you think about, what one retailer, or how many SKUs they have online versus an in-store environment, they're heavily reliant on brands to use that content there. They're just not going to develop that themselves. The sheer amount of resources that they need to do that is, it's not going to happen basically. And obviously we've put more emphasis on it ourselves because not only, do they need the content, but we need more content ourselves because we're not just using the content on our website, we're developing it for social, for digital, for every avenue, for work that we do through our PR agency. It's used in every channel.Mary:But like I said, the way that we differentiate in that area is that we are also developing custom content for ourselves. And we do also have retailers that they will change up their hero copy and this and that. I mean, when we do those audits, we also make sure that the information is correct and they don't go off the deep end. Stephanie:Yup. Yup. I can imagine there being a lot of value in what they're seeing on their side around the kinds of content that's working. Maybe they're getting some kinds of content from you in one way, and then different styles from another brand. Is there any data sharing there where they give feedback of like, "Oh, we see this toothbrush brand doing this and it's working really well. Our customers like this." Do they ever share that feedback and then help you rethink the content that you all are headed or going to create?Mary:Yeah, interesting that has never happened, but what we have done ourselves is that we obviously keep our eye on what content performs best and then we produce more of that type of content. So like most brands, user-generated content tends to perform much better. We work with a lot of influencers who obviously built custom content for us. And that's the stuff that performs much better than... I'm not saying our stuff doesn't perform, but in comparison, that material. It's also, somebody, it's brand appropriate, it has the proper brand essence to it, but consumers like to see other people's material and they gravitate towards it. And they're more engaged in it. And so we put more of a focus.Stephanie:Yeah. Are there any big bets that you all are making in marketing campaigns or content that you're like, "This might not pay off or this could be taken the wrong way, but we're going for it?"Mary:I mean, not really in that sense, but in the sense of social shopping, we're putting more of a focus on social shopping and being able to track that. And we also just launched a campaign and we had positive ROI on it. So that's where everything's going. It's like making sure you have a positive ROI that you are testing and learning and being able to quantify. It's the benefit of the digital world. You can actually see the results of your efforts and what they produce.Stephanie:So earlier you mentioned influencers. And that's something on the show that I've heard a lot of mixed reviews around of what's an influencer? Who actually classifies as that? When does it deliver results? And how are you guys going about finding the right influencers and partnering the way that you get a long-term ROI?Mary:Yeah. So we've been working in this area for quite a long time. We don't focus on celebrity influencers. That's not our thing. We are most interested in aesthetic and brand alignment and also the fact that our consumers are very oriented around food and food is a big part of their life and they're very interested in recipe ideas and things like that. So we have a whole, we've developed an entire set of guidelines for influencers and also for any work that we're doing in social media for ourselves and for our licensed partners.Mary:And we have also over time found a few influencers that we've had ongoing partnerships with instead of one-offs. I'm sure a lot of people that you talk to talk about where this is going, where the influencer marketing field is going, because obviously there's a lot more brands using it in comparison to even one or two years ago. It also, when you get into that situation, you can be driving a pricing and a few other things. And those are all obviously concerns for everybody. And then also the fact that you also want to have separation with competitive brands which is a big concern. And we stay on top of all of that.Mary:We're not currently using a platform to vet influencers. We don't do that. We work with our PR agency Magrino, and they are basically doing the research and handpicking appropriate influencers. I mean, they know our guidelines and they know what we're looking for. And we also work with the influencer and also get their stats from them and making sure that they're in line. We also get contacted by a lot of people directly through our social channels, or even just through email wanting to partner with us and we explore all those opportunities, but at the end of the day, it also has to align with our needs and our guidelines and also the needs of our consumer.Stephanie:Yeah. We've heard quite a few brands saying, "Anyone can be an influencer essentially, and it's not the big celebrities of the world anymore. It's anyone who has even a couple of thousand followers, if those followers are engaged and ready to buy." Are you seeing those more, the micro influencers working better than just, like you said, you don't even go for celebrities? So what do you look for when you're trying to find someone who's going to be a good fit for the brand and also deliver good results?Mary:Yeah. I mean, our biggest thing is engagement. That's what we are interested in. We're interested in engagement. We also have a certain level of followers that we're interested in, not in the small thousands per se, but those are all key vetting points for us. And then also we check their handle, make sure that the work that they're doing is aligned with what our consumers want to see also. We don't want to see overly promotional. We want to see some separation. We also want to see, like I said, engagement is a key factor for us too.Stephanie:Yeah. And it seems like that's where the world as a whole is headed around organic content, authentic UGC, not the way that it used to be even just a couple of years ago around, you see a channel, wherever it was and being like, "Oh, obviously their whole goal here is just to sell, sell, sell." I rarely see that working anymore. And if you see people doing that, they quickly start falling down the ranks of, "Why am I even here if you're just selling this one haircare product the entire time, and there's no other content. I don't feel connected with that." So it seems like everything's kind of shifting in that direction.Mary:Yeah, it definitely is. And people want to be inspired. That's why they're on these channels. They want to be inspired, they want to educate themselves a lot of times. People are very visually inspired and they want to... I mean, I even know myself the types of things that I use social media for, it's education too. It's about, I happen to study Italian, so I'm very oriented. I follow a lot of people in Italy and cookbook authors and things like that. And I'm there to learn. I'm there to be inspired by their knowledge and the recipe ideas. And it doesn't matter, it just matters what the consumer's passionate about. And that's what you have to deliver to them. They don't want to be hammered over the head every day with, "Buy my blah, blah." I mean, that's not why they're there. And then, as you said, what happens is over time they tune out.Stephanie:Yup. Are there any, what maybe some would call competitors that you'd be open to being shown up against, because I see that being a world where you're like, "Oh, I really want this influencer. They're really big in the food scene, but they also use a semi-competitor products." Are you all okay with that? Or are you like, "Oh, it has to be semi-exclusive," or, "You can't feature other competitors on your channel as well."Mary:Yeah. We wouldn't do that.Stephanie:You wouldn't do that? That's hard no.Mary:We're too competitive.Stephanie:Yep. Hey, I like it. That's great.Mary:Yeah. I mean, we even go to the point where we, "When you're taking photos, we don't want to see competitive product in the photo." I mean, and I assume people over time also do the same thing. But yeah, we're very competitive. We want to see separation. We don't want to work with somebody who is like, been all over every competitor known to man. And hey, I know for a fact that people probably go on our channel and see who we're working with and use us as a free game for not having to find their own influencers for all I know, and we don't do that. We don't do that at all. I would not encourage that. That's kind of the lazy man's way out. But yeah, we don't do that.Stephanie:That's not a long game [crosstalk].Mary:No, it's a short game. And the thing is, it's like, if you're in this for the long haul, you're going to do it from a strategic perspective and not a tactical perspective. And to me, that's tactical because you're assuming whatever I'm doing is going to work for you. And your brand's, different brand. Your consumers have different needs and wants. That's what you need to focus on.Stephanie:Yeah. And it's putting way too much trust in another team that you don't even know what they're talking about. Why they're doing that. You don't even know what they're partnering with that person.Mary:And the other thing is, you don't even know what the stats are, how it produced, how it performed. I mean, now at the end of the day, you really don't. So we don't do that. It's not even in my mindset to be completely honest with you, but I'm not saying that other people don't take that tactic.Stephanie:Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Earlier you were talking about creating these shoppable experiences. And before the show, I mentioned also headless commerce and you're like, "Oh, I mean, is that even a term anymore? We've been doing that forever." I want to hear what you guys are seeing around what some would still say is a trend. And we've had some people be like, "That's not even a thing," or, "It's here to stay." And I'd love to hear your perspective since you guys are the maybe OGs in this. You've already been doing it.Mary:And it was one of those things where we did it for a different reason. Well, it was similar reason, but different. So this is like years ago, our shopping cart aspect of our website is completely separate from the web property and the reason it was done like that was that we were working with a fulfillment company. We've been selling direct-to-consumer for years and years. It's just that we use a fulfillment company. Consumer have this shopping experience on our website, but the orders were sent to a fulfillment organization. They fulfilled them. And we kept the consumer in our ecosystem because I wanted it to be able to own the data.Mary:So this was like more forward-thinking. Now, this is like all the trend. People are like, first-party data, first-party data, but that's how I protected my first-party data years ago. And so in a way, thank God I did it because when we wanted to bring the D2C business back in-house in late 2018, I didn't have to restructure my entire website. I basically just had to plug in a shopping cart basically at that point. And then last year in the middle of the year, we transitioned our entire web property to Episerver, it's a DXP, and still kept the shopping cart separate. And what we ended up doing, it was you made as much of the site [CMSable] as possible so that the marketing team can virtually do any day-to-day operation that we need to change a price, add a new product, build a landing page. We just finished building out blocks so that we can build custom landing pages. We can literally do anything ourselves.Mary:And so the idea was we wanted to be a masters of our own domain basically, because in our previous situation we used one web development company and they did everything for us. And unfortunately, over time as the brand became more mature, it didn't make sense for us anymore because we really needed experts. We needed experts in SEM, SEO. We needed experts in web development, in the latest best platform to use. And we also wanted to be more in control of our business. So we didn't have to open a ticket with IT. And the SDP emails me, is like, "Hey, I think we changed the price on blah, blah, blah, can you fix it on the website?" I'm like, "On the fly." Kids do it in 10 seconds, and not even... So this way we're in control of our destiny, basically. We're not heavily reliant on any one thing or any one agency. And this way also, if we decide to change agencies, we're not stuck.Mary:And that's one of the things that is really important for us and for our business. And not having to get in line at the deli stand. No seriously, I say I'm a point A to point B person. I don't want to have to go through five people to do something. I want to be able to control my destiny and the destiny of the company and the brand. And that's how I look at it. And that's how, it's more work for us because now instead of dealing with one agency, we're dealing with multiple agencies, but that's what's best for the company. And that's what's best for the brand because when you get to a certain level, you need to be reliant on experts in the field.Mary:And this is where vertical integration is not necessarily the best thing for your business. And so it depends. I know some people are all up for vertical integration, but what happens over time is when you're not continually developing those people and making sure they stay best in class and they only have one client, you get denigration over time, basically, in my opinion.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, there's no incentives to keep doing better and better if you're getting paid the same amount to, essentially, if you can make it less work. And I mean, and they're not going out to the market and shopping it and doing our piece. They're like, "This is what we got right here. I'm doing a flat line thing for anyone." Obviously it's like, "Would have stepped in with our hand." But I mean, I also think about it's the company, the age of the company and where they're at in that life cycle. And it seems like it always starts with, you've got the founders and then it's very dispersed and you're hiring all these agencies and, "I need social, I need this, I need that." And it's all over the place. And then you start to bundle it back up again and bring things in-house.Stephanie:At what point do you think that companies should start considering pulling things back in-house, controlling their own destiny a bit more and not relying on just one or two agencies to control what's happening and where they have to wait in line at the deli stand, as you'd say?Mary:Yeah. I mean, I think it depends on your business because for where we are and where the brand is now, it's more important for us to be working with what I call best in class. And the thing is, unless your organization is continually investing in talent and adding head count and all those things that companies are not necessarily looking to do. The sheer amount of people you need to keep that train running is probably unreasonable. And so for me, I can't even imagine us bundling this all back and bringing it in-house. I just think our needs are greater than that at this point. But I'm not saying it'll never happen. Things change every day, but at the end of the day in my experience, when you have some of these in-house organizations, it slows down your business. It's slow. It's like, "Okay, here's a common service area. There's nine divisions. And we all have to use the same point, the entry and get in line."Mary:And it's like, things never happened. It's like the slow boat. It's not easy. And the other thing too, is what ends up happening sometimes with organizations is, "Let's have so-and-so do it." And they have no expertise, they have no experience, they have no knowledge. And so that person's not really the right one to be there, but they're handed the thing and it's not necessarily the best outcome. So for me right now, I'm not intending on rebundling and bringing anything back. And first of all, the sheer lift on that would be insane. And you're also talking-Stephanie:And you also let the team go and hire too, which I love. I mean, the team be on a find a cool vendor and find a cool agency to work with it, and maybe executives would have never had time to even stumble on. I mean, that's how we even got our start with Salesforce, was one team within Salesforce betting on us and being like, "Let's try this company. It's small, but they want to make a podcast. Let's go for it and partner with them." And just getting that one opportunity to then spread within the company and do a good job and prove yourself. I think that's how a lot of innovation can happen by just letting the teams go and source those cool opportunities or companies to partner with.Mary:And the other thing too, is you have to remember when you're working with agency partners, they have other clients that you learn from. They are bringing you ideas that they've seen possibly be successful with other clients in completely different industries. And so there's a lot of built-in advantage there. There's built in knowledge, there's built in advantage. I also think that they understand our business. We're teaching them over time, our business. And so they're invested in it. They're invested in making sure that we're successful and we're doing the same. I think sometimes when you vertically integrate, the motivations may be different. And there's maybe not necessarily that hunger over time. And so depending on what that situation is like internally depends on how successful that is.Stephanie:Yep. I totally agree. Love it. All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Mary?Mary:I'm ready.Stephanie:Awesome. All right. So pull out your crystal ball, what one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?Mary:I think social selling.Stephanie:Yeah? Tell a bit more. What are you thinking?Mary:Well, because it's a new channel. It's getting to the point where we have ways to prove it out. I believe that it's definitely a new area. When I look at statistics in social selling, it's like the last year, I think it's like 57% of the consumers bought something off social office, social channel. I mean, that's a big opportunity as far as I'm concerned.Stephanie:Yeah. That's where I source a lot of everything, by Instagram, TikTok, I'm like, "Oh, cute shirt, cute outfit. That makeup set, you said, that's good? Okay. I trust you." Yeah. I definitely agree on that. What is your favorite Cuisinart product outside of the air fryer? And me, I was like, "I know she's going to say that again."Mary:That is by far my favorite product, but I have several. So we have a product called the griddler which we've had in the line for a really long time. We have a couple of new versions of it. And so that's, now I'm going to go into the pitch, but-Stephanie:Do it. Do [crosstalk].Mary:It's an indoor grill. It has, basically, can take you from breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It has reversible plates. You can make a panini. And the great thing about it as the plates go right in the dishwasher. So you make a meal in minutes and there's little cleanup. So that's another one of my favorite products. And I couldn't start my day without my Cuisinart single-serve coffee maker. We have multiple coffee makers in this house, but don't judge me, I happen to work for a company that makes a lot of great ones, but we use the single-serve one when we're in hurry, but we also use a grind and brew when we want to linger over a pot. So definitely coffee would be, can't start my day without it.Stephanie:Wow. So many products you need to invest in. I don't even know where to start. Great. What is one brand that you watch that helps you stay creative or innovative, or you keep an eye on what they're doing? And it does not have to be in the cookware industry of course, it can be very different.Mary:Keep my eye on a lot of companies. So it's hard to distill down. And I would say, a lot of them are not in, I mean, not that I don't keep track of my competitors, believe me, I do, but they're several. I would say Peloton is one of them just because of, I mean, they've been in the news a lot lately, but that's not my reasons. The community aspect of it, I think that's what the product is really about. It's not really about the physical products. So I think that's really cool. Obviously, Apple, who doesn't keep their eye on Apple. I would also Amazon because they're into everything. There's every day I open the news and I'm like, "What don't they do basically."Mary:So let's say that's a few of them. Then I also keep my eye on a lot of startups, small startups, especially in the food industry right now. I really love what's going on in plant-based food and there're so many food startups out there. I really am very intrigued by the work that they're doing.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. We just did a whole episode too on why your best ideas can come from looking outside your industry and how that's a lot of innovations happen, especially when you have a similar problem that maybe has already been solved. If you're thinking like, "Oh, I have something around employees in this and how to set it up. And I'm in the food industry. Let me go look at the, I don't know, space industry and see how they think about this or even military or something. How do they do team structures?" And yeah, it was very interesting to think about how other industries can influence creativity and solving problems.Mary:Yeah. The other thing too, what I think about is, there's so much work going on in the plant-based food business. There's so many competitors. The same thing with meal kits. At some point consolidation has to happen. But the other reason I keep my eye on that is, we have to be as people who make appliances, we have to be helping our consumers understand how to actually prepare those foods when they get at home and they're using our equipment and all those types of things. I mean, if you just look at conventional meats versus grass-fed versus organic, they all cook differently. So there's some work that has to be done there to educating the consumer.Mary:So that's another reason why I keep my eye on the food industry. And just food in general, it's changing so fast. And also people have much more, such interest in ethnic foods and discovering new foods. And there's an entire process of what happens to consumers when they travel somewhere and taste something new and try to recreate it at home. So I keep my eye on all those types of things.Stephanie:Yep. That just made me think about something that needs reinvention that maybe you guys can tap into, the microwave. Why does it still have presets that just say potato, popcorn. I'm like, "I don't use any of those. And this is 2021. People make many different things, not just baked potatoes and meat or whatever it has on there." So if you also helps with that.Mary:It's funny because, I'll tell you something about myself. So we have multiple air fryers, there's digital ones, which have a zillion options. I have the, this is going to make me sound analog instead of digital completely, but I actually like the dials because I like to decide myself how it should be cooked. But yeah, so I agree with you though, like, "How many cups of coffee do we need to reheat before we know that's what it is?"Stephanie:Yup. Yup. Man.Mary:Baked potato popcorn.Stephanie:Yep. [crosstalk].Mary:But they're also the most used functions, which is, kind of drives why they're there.Stephanie:Wow. Yeah. Okay. Maybe I'm just not their typical user.Mary:Maybe you're not making enough baked potatoes.Stephanie:I know. I guess, I need to get on that. What am I doing with my life? All right. And the last question, what one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?Mary:Oh, Bitcoin, please.Stephanie:Yeah. I've had so many people say that on the show.Mary:Cryptocurrency, I don't get it in. And after watching Elon Musk on Saturday Night Live, I still don't know anything.Stephanie:Man, I think this is just going to push me to start a crypto podcast because so many e-commerce guests have said that and trying figure it out and how it's going to impact their work or their point of sale systems or payments or any of that, or even supply chain, which I think it's going to have a huge impact on.Mary:Yeah. It's interesting. Because I think I'm smarter than the average doc and I just cannot follow that at all. It's not that I haven't tried, but I definitely need an education there and I'd appreciate if you help me with that.Stephanie:All right. I will find a sponsor. Anyone come on in and sponsor the show, I'll get it going and Mary is going to be my first guest to ask all the questions.Mary:I'm there.Stephanie:Well, all right, Mary. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a pleasure chatting. Where can people find out more about you and Cuisinart?Mary:So you can find out more about Cuisinart at cuisinart.com. So follow us on all the social channels under Cuisinart, except for on TikTok, it's cuisinart_official, which we're just starting that right now. So we're testing the waters as they say.Stephanie:It's going to be air frying all the things on there I bet. That'll do.Mary:Exactly.Stephanie:That'll be hot on that channel.Mary:Just started. So we're just getting our feet wet. And then you can follow me on LinkedIn, it's Mary Rodgers. Easy to find.Stephanie:Perfect. Thank you so much.Mary:Thank you. It's great being with you today. It was a lot of fun.Stephanie:Same, and I agree.

Seth: Mary moving on uh, let's just talk about one last question. Um, I know you're a master teacher of English. But have you learned anything considered hard? And what have you done to succeed in learning it? Mary: Oh, uh, I mean, I think I've learned a lot of hard things. Um, but like, we kind of discussed in an earlier question. I've definitely chosen to stay with things that feel easier to me or where I feel like my natural gifts or my natural talents are. So I certainly haven't done anything that I felt was impossible, but maybe have done things and worked it things that, um uh, worked at things that I never thought that I would be as good at as I am. And so that's been encouraging. Um, I think that for a lot of people, learning the language is really hard. Um, there're people that have a real gift for it, and there are the people that can pick up a language quickly, learn it quickly. I remember when I was 15 years old and I was in English class. It was an advanced English class, and we had to take a grammar test. And up to that point, um, when you're learning your own language, you don't really learn the grammar as intensely as you learn it when you're learning another language. Okay, so there were a lot of words and vocabulary that I wasn't familiar with, but, um, I took that test in an advanced English class and I failed it. I got, like, out of 100 points. I got like, 30 points, Seth: Mary! Mary: I know! So I mean, I was 15. I didn't know I was going to be an ESL teacher when I grew up, but I was really shocked and surprised because I was an advanced English class and I thought: "How hard can it be to know the grammar of my own language?" But you take a lot for granted when you, um, are native speaker of a language with just how complicated it can be to follow specific rules and things like that. But after learning a second language, um, I really learned to love grammar, for example, like I really loved how accurate it was and how easy it was to follow. It was almost like following a math lesson. Um I needed this part plus this part to equal this part. The result. And I liked how predictable it was and how structured it was so that when I was ready to finish up schooling. I thought, this is something I know I would really enjoy. And then I started taking linguistics classes and, um, grammar classes and really enjoying the pattern of language and finding that I had a knack for it and also that I really enjoyed it. And I think really what it took was understanding where my strengths were. But then also really applying myself and I mean all of the things that we've talked about so far in this lesson, you know, like being courageous to try something hard, understanding what you're passionate about and having the desire to do it. And then, um, just believing that you can do it. It makes a huge difference in how successful you're going to be. And when you apply those things, no matter how hard something is. If you have those elements, you could be successful. Seth: Thank you, Mary!

Transcript: Mary: Okay, this is going to be interesting being a couple answering this question. Plus, we already kind of answered in the first question, but what's more difficult listening or speaking? Seth: What? Mary: That's a good joke. Seth: I would say for me, speaking. Even in my own native language speaking is harder for me than listening. I'm a really good listener. I can sit there and listen to someone forever and just keep asking them simple questions and let them do most speaking. So maybe it has to do with a little bit of your personality, but I would say that listening is probably easier for me than speaking. Seth: What about you Mary? Mary: Oh, what do you think? Speaking hands down way easier. I mean, I love listening to. I love getting...you're a good listener. Thank you. I really like knowing more about people and listening to their perspectives and their stories and things like that. But speaking is not hard for me because I'm so interested and I love language. I no matter what language it is. I really love language. And so it's fun for me to speak. And it's fun for me to share. Seth: It's fun to listen to you. Mary: So definitely, speaking is more fun. Listening is more difficult because my brain is in speaking mode. And so sometimes listening I really have to like, be much more conscientious of that skill and learn to practice that Seth: And I am the opposite. Have to consciously speak except minutes with you. Mary: Oh, it's so easy for us. So where we got married. So anyway, you guys, I wish that we could hear what You're what you would say about that. What is more difficult for you? Maybe go and write that down or share with someone which skill is more difficult for you.

My guest today is Mary Parks. Mary's background is in communications and applied linguistics, and for the past twenty years she has worked on designing voice user interfaces for digital systems. In this conversation, we focus on what voice interfaces are and how voice-driven systems work. Listen to the full conversation https://theinformeddotlife.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/the-informed-life-episode-25-mary-parks.mp3   Show notes Mary Parks on Twitter Nuance Communications Honeywell Applied linguistics Siri Natural language understanding Dragon NaturallySpeaking The uncanny valley Pixel 4 Read the full transcript Jorge: So Mary, welcome to the show. Mary: Thank you. Jorge: For folks who don't know you, would you please tell us about yourself? Mary: I am a voice user interface designer, and if I had to say, where my voice user interface design background starts is actually in applied linguistics. So sometimes I would call myself an applied linguist. So, to give more background on that, I started out in my educational background going into cross-cultural communications for my bachelor's degree, and then, kind of got interested in becoming an English as a second language teacher. So, knew that I needed a degree in applied linguistics. A lot of people that teach English as a second language pursue applied linguistics degrees. So that's what I started working my master's degree in, was applied linguistics. And it took me a while actually to get my master's degree because it turned out that you could start teaching right away in that field. So, with a bachelor's in cross-cultural communications, I started teaching English as a second language, and I did that for 15 years. Had my master's, took a lot of linguistics classes, loved linguistics, got interested in theoretical linguistics, and I kept thinking about what I wanted to do after a while because I felt like I wanted to do something else with linguistics. I loved teaching. I was teaching at the university level, teaching students writing, listening all kinds of skills that they would need to succeed in a university. But I also taught other students as well, who are coming to the United States to learn conversation in English as well, or business English, other types of specialized English. I bring this up because it's relevant to my work actually, just that whole teaching background. But as I said, I kind of wanted to do something else in linguistics. So, I was aware as the internet wave in the 90s was happening, I knew that a lot of linguists were being hired in different roles in technology companies. So, I thought, “Oh, maybe I could do something in technology.” And kind of fell into voice user interface design because of various reasons. It was just one of the jobs that I applied for. But it was funny because I didn't have a background in design, nor did I have… I didn't think I had a background in design, and I didn't think that I had a background in UI. Like I didn't know what a UI was. And clearly, I didn't even have a technology background. The good news is that when I started working at… And the first company that hired me as a voice user interface designer was a startup here in San Francisco. Because it was a startup, I was able to just dive in and just start working in speech technology and seeing overlaps and bringing in… I knew then that I had a lot of relevant background. I had to learn, you know, what a UI is, I had to learn a lot about design. I just started reading a ton, going to workshops, going to conferences, doing all I could. I had mentors who were helping me learn. So, the first two years, my brain was on fire in this new career. And yeah, that was back in 2000. So, I've been working since then in voice user interface design. There was the first startup. I went to another startup here in the Bay area, and then joined a company called Nuance Communications. It wasn't called that at the time, but it was basically one of the primary vendors for speech recognition technology, and they had a large professional services organization. So, I was there for 10 years. It was great, to just get into a regular rhythm and practice of how to build these applications. And then, what I didn't say was, when I started in this field in 2000, I quickly learned about the notion of the internet of things that was already being talked about back then. So, living here in San Francisco, walking around using public transportation, I was constantly thinking about how could voice interfaces fit in an internet of things world. And I wasn't really thinking of a cloud-based internet of things world, I was thinking more about ground-based computing — “fog” computing, if you wanted to call it that. So that was already something going around in my mind. And then, a few years back, I ended up joining Honeywell, and was working there on basically what I would say, like location-based and internet of things-based applications of voice. So was there for a few years and then a few years back, I started contracting at a large tech company here in the Bay Area, working in voice and multimodal experiences, and I've been doing that for a couple of years. So it's coming up to about 20 years in this area. Jorge: This notion that you had — sounds like very early on — that there was a future where voice was going to overlap with the internet of things… Or rather, that there was such a thing as computing devices distributed all around us that would be driven by voice — seems very prescient. Mary: Yeah. In the startup that I was at, it was called Vocal Points, and there were a lot of people there that had been already thinking about this for years and they were very much thinking about how do we make it so that voice is available everywhere. You know this, it's just there. So how do you do that? And so, I was lucky, and I want to say: I think luck plays a lot in my story. I was just lucky that I was at a startup that was attacking that problem at the time. Jorge: But it also sounds like you had the right background. What should folks know about applied linguistics? Mary: Oh yeah. Linguistics is interesting. Applied linguistics means just… It's kind of like you have physics and you have applied physics. So. There's a part of linguistics that goes after theory and you could say kind of lab or field research. There's lots of different types of linguistics. And then there's the applied side, which tends to be, for example, how do you take what we know about linguistics, what we know about language learning, for example, and apply that to helping people learn another language. Or how do you apply it to helping people learn what they need to know in their own language. It could also be applied that way. There's also lots of clinical ways that you can use linguistics, for example, in speech pathology. Linguistics helps in something like that. So, there's forensic linguistics, is another field that I would say as applied linguistics. So, it's basically saying, how do you apply linguistics to solve real world needs? And to me, voice user interface design, you don't need to be a linguist to apply linguistics there. To do that work, you don't have to have a linguistics background. But I think it's always good to have some linguists around as designers who know how to apply linguistics to it. Jorge: I'm assuming that when you talk about applied linguistics, that covers both spoken and written language. Is that right? Mary: Yeah. It covers all language phenomena. Jorge: When I hear you say that you are a voice user interface designer, that to me speaks to the verbal part of that dichotomy. Yes? Mary: Yeah. Yeah. It's speech. Well, in the UI design, when you get into the UI design part, there's two big components. One is the speech input, what people input into the machine, and the speech output, what comes out of the machine. So, kind of technically it's usually divided that way, and it has to be. But then it's not like you have to have speech output tough. So, you could have speech input, and the machine does something else. It doesn't talk to you. It might do something. So those are two different kind of components of it, speech input and speech output. Jorge: And you work on both? Mary: Mm, yes. I think that it's really important that, in order to make sure the machine behaves as desired, you have to be able to… In other words, it's not just about the speech output side or the machine behavior side, but then just deciding how it's going to behave based on the input. So, if you have one group of people working on input and then the designers are over here deciding behavior, you can end up with a lot of trouble because you can't do it independently of each other. And there's multiple layers of talking about that. So, you can talk about it at the information architecture layer level, just saying you have to architecture how the speech input works. So, you know, you could say, what are the tags that are going to be associated with certain types of utterances, let's put it that way. So, you can have all this input coming in, it all has to be bucketed into different tags. Well, if that structure is being made in a way that doesn't really suit the needs of how the output needs to come, or how the machine behavior needs to be, you're going to have a complete disaster. Right? So, it's really important to be able to help guide how the input is handled and then on the pure output side of things. Yeah. Anyhow, you have to do both together. Long story short. Jorge: The voice interactions that I'm most familiar with are with my phone. When I'm in my commute, I'll be walking along with earphones and I will be listening to podcasts or an audio book or something like that and something will come up that makes me think I want to follow up with that idea. And I will speak into the air, I will say, “Hey, name, remind me to look up blah blah blah blah blah.” And the command “remind me to” is… I know it's a trigger that causes this voice-based assistant to place a transcription of whatever follows into my to do list. And I'm wondering if that “remind me to” trigger is what you're thinking of when you say “tags”? Mary: Okay. Yes. So, and that's a really great example of a use case, right? So basically, that's a tag, right. And there's a tag somewhere that says there's a bucket of utterances that will help the system know, “okay this is what the person wanted to do.” And it doesn't have to be “remind me to” like it could be… It's interesting as you as you play around with systems more you start to realize you could probably say something like, “I need to pick up some milk,” and the systems will know to put that in a list. That's kind of interesting. Recently I tested something on an Apple interface: instead of saying something like, “timer two minutes” — that's kind of I normally do set timers that way, I just say, “timer blah.” I thought, “Oh, two minutes.” And bam! It got it. I didn't even have to say “timer.” So, you don't even have to give the phrase “timer” there. So, the system knows that I'm referencing a time and it knows what it does. So, it knows when I say, “two minutes,” it's most likely that I wanted a timer. And there's some risk here, because what we're talking about — what I think is really important to understand — is that speech systems are probabilistic. So, when I brought up this notion of input… And there's also two systems happening that have to work to get the magic of voice working, at least two. One is the magic of speech recognition, which is taking an acoustic signal and trying to figure out how we can map an acoustic signal to a text string. So, the text string is not like if you remember earlier in our discussion, I said that speech and written forms of language are two different animals. But unfortunately, our speech systems don't work off of the acoustics side of it. They take the acoustics and then they translate that into a text string. So, they don't have a lot of signal, actually, in terms of what you were just… Like if you were yelling at it, the system only knows there's a text string of something. And the important thing about being probabilistic input is that it's trying to make the best guess based on what it has learned to date about translating acoustic signals into text strings. So, it's made its best guess about what that text string is, and then that text string is being put into one of these tags, which usually is called an intent. It doesn't matter what those things are called, what those tags are called doesn't matter. It's just this notion that there's a bucket of strings that are assumed will fall into a certain behavior that is desired from the end user. What's interesting about the example that you gave, “remind me to blah,” or that particular thing, is that when you get to the part about what you're reminding, there's two ways that a system can handle that. So, I told you there's the speech technology that takes the acoustics, and then you also now suddenly have a text string. Now there's still going to be some probabilistic things done with that text string as well, in modern systems. It's not just kind of a rule-based, you could be using machine learning on that system as well. Well, you are actually. Machine learning has been around for a long time, so there's always machine learning throughout the system. So, when you got the text string part, “remind me to” or “I need to pick up milk,” certain utterances, the system goes, “Oh, okay. I've got this string, ‘I need to pick up milk' or I've got this string, ‘remind me to pick up milk.' So “pick up milk…” Like, “I need to pick up milk…” “I need…” The string goes, “Oh, okay. That's a reminder request. We're putting it into that bucket.” And then the other part, “pick up milk.” “To pick up milk” is what the string is. So it sees “to pick up milk.” So it's almost like what you said before doesn't matter, it's about the “to pick up milk.” It's a reminder. Now the system can do two things with that part, “to pick up milk.” It could run what's called natural language understanding, which means that it tries to take that string and understand it and do something with it that kind of goes into a bucket of its own. Or it could just take that string, and the system can be built so that it literally takes the exact string that you said and puts it in word for word. So, this matters because there's different types of technologies going on. In the case where you have a text string and the system is just trying to understand it, that's a lot of our interactions with these devices that have voice interfaces on them, that's a lot of what goes on. You say something and it tries to put it in a bucket, and it does something with it. There's a whole other type of technology, and this is most commonly felt when we use dictation. That's a different technology. It's not the same. So, you can feel this the most when you're doing text messaging through one of these assistants. So, you could just open up your phone and tap the input field and hit the microphone and start dictating. When you do that as a person, you know you're dictating you see it happening, or you might've done this, you might've started it on the phone and then you can put the phone away and you're dictating to the machine, and it's an amazing feat. Or if you've ever used dictation on a computer or a product such as Dragon Naturally Speaking, which came from Nuance — that's an amazing technology. Apple has their own dictation; Microsoft has their own dictation; a lot of these companies have their own dictation algorithms, let's put it that way. And that's a different thing. That's taking your utterances and putting it in word for word and then there's this kind of modeling that's taking place that might… That makes it easier for the system to figure out what you want to say as a dictation thing. So that's one way of doing dictation, when you're asking Siri to, or some other device, to do dictation as part of an interaction with the assistant, in that case, you're saying something like, ” Hello, so and so.” You wake it up, you wake up the device, you get its attention, you press a button and then you say, “Send a message to my mother. Tell her I miss her and I'm going to call her tomorrow.” So, you say that and then suddenly everything you said is written down word for word: “I miss you. I'll call her tomorrow.” And you look at it and you go, “Oh no, Oh no. Oh no. That's not what I wanted.” See what's going on. There is, there's no interpretation of your input. It's doing other things to try to get the dictation right, but it's purely dictation and it's not the same as the whole part that came before. The whole part that came before was an interaction with the assistant or voice UI to kind of let it know, “Hey, I'm trying to send a message. Hey, it's to this person.” So, it's filling out fields, right? It's going, “Okay. They want to send a message, and oh, here's the person they want to send it to.” So, it's got those fields handled. But the whole message part, in order for it to be done correctly, you have to suddenly start dictating, not telling the voice UI what you want said in the message, because it can't do that yet. That technology isn't available. Jorge: It sounds to me like there are two distinct modalities of interacting using your voice with these digital systems. In one modality, you're dictating to the system and it's trying to capture what you're saying verbatim or as close to verbatim as possible. And in some cases, it's giving you live visual feedback of what it thinks it's hearing you say. And in the other modality, it's trying to guess — based on the intents that it's been programmed to understand — it's trying to guess from what has come before, what utterances you've made before, trying to guess what it is you're trying to get it to do. Mary: Yes. I mean, it's really important to realize that there may not be a visual component. But basically, you can imagine that you have a form. So, you have one sort of speech that comes in and the system goes, “Okay, we're filling out a form. So, this is the sendee, this is the sender, this is…” Oh, it's, you know… And then maybe you could say, “Oh, it's a text message.” You know? So, there's certain things that are being filled out that the system knows. And then there's these other parts that are really just capturing, trying to capture what you're saying verbatim. Jorge: Knowing the workings of these systems puts you in a different level than the rest of us, when interacting with them. And I'm wondering how this knowledge of how these things work influenced the way that you yourself interact using voice. Mary: Ah, that's a great question. It's really funny. So, speech is an amazing thing because we all use it automatically. It took a long time for us to learn it. And there are other forms of language, sign language, and you know, there's other forms of language. It's not that all of us learn speech. But that's what I specialize in, so when I talk about this, I'm just going to focus on the speech. It's amazing because all of us kind of use it automatically without thinking. And it's best when it's that way, because speech is this mechanism that you have a thought, or your brain has a focus on something and then it has a mechanism to take that thought and translate it into the stuff that comes out of your mouth. So, it's amazing. So, it's really hilarious because I run into the same problems that anybody else would. I'm constantly sending text messages where I realize, “Oh, I said that, but I should have said to my husband…” There's the one that always cracks me up is when I happen to say, “Send the message to my husband. Tell him I love him.” It's like I look at, you know… I hear it read back to me, for example, it says, “Okay, message to is saying I love him.” And I always laugh when I hear that. Right? I always correct it because I would hate for him to hear, you know, to get that message, and have to say, “No, change it. Tell him I love you.” And I like to send that message a lot, so for me, I would say maybe one out of 10 times it comes out the wrong way. So, some of this is, why do I say it right the right way? And I don't know. I really don't know the percentage of how it performs, to be honest, in the wild. And I think platforms matter. So, I don't know what, you know, Apple teams versus Google teams, who knows what they run into. But it's funny because I'm guessing because I'm aware of what's going on, maybe I'm less bothered by it or I have fewer questions in my mind. But speech itself is spontaneous. That's the beauty of it. It's this wonderful thing where you have a thought and it comes out of your mouth and you know, when you're talking with a person, the brain catches it and then quickly something, some interaction happens and it's a chain of these spoken packets, let's put it that way, that goes on, that builds up a conversation through time. So, for me personally, I probably have less curiosity or less kind of perplexity when I'm interacting with systems. But as a human, when I'm talking, I run into the exact same problems as everybody else does. Jorge: That is such a great example that you've brought up because it points out how the current state of these systems leads to this kind of uncanny valley of conversation, where this utterance, “tell my spouse that I love him or her” is perfectly normal if you're speaking with a conscious entity who will relay your message. Mary: Yeah. Jorge: But this is not a conscious entity that is receiving the message, right? It's a machine. It's an algorithm. Mary: Yeah. Jorge: And it does not know to change the subject of the sentence by itself. Mary: Right. I think I may be wrong; I think maybe the Pixel 4 phone might be doing some… You know, because when you're typing on your Apple phone, like there's all that predicting what you wanted to say and filling it in. Or you do this in search, for example, and it predicts what you wanted and fills it in ahead for you. You know what I'm talking about, right? Jorge: Yes. Mary: So that type of predictive stuff is happening now. But it raises a hornet's nest of issues because do you want a system to take what you say and interpret it and do a best guess? Or do you want it to take what you said and deliver it exactly as you said it? And I don't know. I mean, here's the thing: I think when it comes to spoken language or any form of language, it's very deeply tied to our identity. So, we didn't get to get into this aspect of it. The moment we open our mouths, a massive amount of identifying information is in the speech utterance, in the first two seconds of the utterance. Whenever we talk, there's a ton of information there. You hear things in the in the sound of the voice that tell you who the person is, elements of their identity, including perhaps the region they're from. You know, there's just all kinds of things that come up. And if you know the person, then your brain goes, “Oh, I know this voice.” Like you can hear only just to the two seconds of a voice, and if it's somebody you really know, you'll know who it is right away with pretty high confidence as a person. And so just identity and language are deeply tied. And I bring this up because I don't think that voice interfaces… It seems like right now we're at this phase where people are looking for some sort of universal way to have voice interactions meet the needs of all human beings. And I think it's going to be… We're going to we are going to have to get into adaptive type Interfaces that adapt to personal people, because I don't think everyone wants the same thing. Some people will love it that the system takes what they say and interprets it for them and delivers it more neatly. Other people will prefer more control and just having it more literal to what they want when they're using these types of technologies. The other problem that is going on right now is as we're talking about the dictation method — and even when we talk about text strings — is that this is an assumption therefore that the people that are using these systems are literate. But a lot of people are not literate, or they have lower rates of literacy. And so then how will these systems really meet their needs? And I mean these are big questions, and I think it's really easy also for the designers — I just want to take a plug for this — that is designers need to realize that we come from our own backgrounds and from our own communities and that when we are in our workplace, the way we behave and the way we talk is different from the people we are designing for. So, it's important to recognize that our own speech and our own behaviors when we're working on these systems. If we try to imagine our end users, how they talk or how they behave, probably there's a huge gap. And so, a ton of work is needed just to be in the field and out there with the people we're designing for in order to get how they talk and how they behave. Jorge: That is such a great observation and I just feel like there's so much more that we could talk about this subject. I think that we need to do a second part to this show. Alas, we're coming up to the end of our time together. Mary: Yeah Jorge: So, Mary, where can folks follow up with you? Mary: Ah! Best place for me is on Twitter and I'm Mary Parks. Jorge: Fantastic. I will link your Twitter account from the show notes. It's been such a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you. Mary: I'm so honored that you asked me to be on, and I really appreciate it. Thank you for this opportunity.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号： VOA英语每日一听Adrienne: So, Mary, what's in the basket there?Mary: Oh, those are all the Christmas cards I received this year.Adrienne: Oh, that's a lot.Mary: Yeah, it's quite a few. I had kind of an extensive list for people I would send cards to but in October my hard drive crashed and I lost my Christmas card list, so I had a hard time trying to figure out how to get cards to everybody this year, so what I've been doing is when I receive a card I'm cutting out everyone's return address and actually taping it to the back of their card so that way I'll have an ability to rebuild that list at some point.Adrienne: Wow, that sounds like a big project.Mary: You know it's really so bad cause I enjoy taking a look at the cards anyhow so it's something do while I'm looking at the cards.Adrienne: So when do you usually send your Christmas cards out?Mary: Well, I try to send them out in the middle of December but this year they left my house on the 21st, so it was sort of way to close to the end.Adrienne: Right. Right. Um, what about next year? Will you try to get them out in the middle of December?Mary: I'm definitely going to try cause now that I have everyone's address I'll be able to rebuild that list hopefully before December.Adrienne: Well, sounds like a good plan. Good luck.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Adrienne: Wow, Mary, that's a great dining room table. Where did you get it?Mary: Oh, thanks. That is something, a project that Dave and I worked on over a couple of weekends. We really enjoy doing woodworking and he actually has a very elaborate woodshop at his house and it's something I really enjoy working on too, so we thought of a project, which was the table and kind of designed what it would look like and bought some lumber and used his tools to figure out exactly how to put it all together and the process was a lot of fun, um, making the plan and actually using four or five different kinds of tools to assemble it and get it all put together. I have to say that I wasn't quite sure what it was going to end up looking like cause in the rough form it wasn't impressing me too much but once everything was sanded and stained and done it really impressed me so it's a lot of fun to do.Adrienne: So you made the table from scratch?Mary: Yep, Yep we did. Just bought some lumber, certain sizes of lumber and ended up cutting it to the different kind of things we needed so it was like making a pattern and then using all these raw materials to put together to create the final product.Adrienne: Wow, that's really impressive cause it's a nice table.Mary: I really like it. It was a lot of fun to do.Adrienne: Um, any other projects you've done that you have in the house?Mary: Um, well, not quite like the table, but just some general finishing things, for instance if something is broken, like I'm not sure if you noticed, but my front door has no doorknob at the moment so I do have a doorknob and I will be fixing that at some point, soAdrienne: That falls, I'm sorry, does that fall into the category of woodworking?Mary: It can cause it's gonna involve some tools.Adrienne: I see. Very cool. Thanks.