Podcasts about ryan oh

As entrepreneurs, we have the ability to make a difference in the world and in those we serve by aligning our  In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Ryan Pineda, real estate investing expert and author of The Wealthy Way to talk about real estate, business, and faith. You'll Learn [01:34] Getting Started in Entrepreneurship [08:07] Faith and Business [17:16] Having Impact as a Business Owner [29:50] You are What You Consume [45:35] Don't Wait to do the Work Tweetables  ”There's no more efficient business model for positively changing the world than business.” “ When you start becoming process-driven more than results-driven, your life changes.” “ We should expect things to be hard and worth it.” “ You are what you consume in all areas of life.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jason: There's so much wisdom in there and if you can at least just be willing to extract wisdom wherever you can find it, then you're not an idiot And so at least start there, everybody listening, just look for wisdom, be a seeker of wisdom and look for the things that are better and higher.  [00:00:16] Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:34] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:54] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:13] Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:17] So my guest today, I am honored to hang out with Ryan Pineda. Ryan, welcome to the show.  [00:01:22] Ryan: Hey, happy to be here. Good to see you.  [00:01:25] Jason: So Ryan, I'd love to kick things off by getting into your background of how you kind of got into this journey of entrepreneurship. But before we do that, your company's called Wealthy Investor, right? [00:01:36] Yep. And you've worked with a lot of real estate investors. My target audience listening to the show are usually the vehicle or the support mechanism for a lot of investors. I think the audience would be interested in hearing a little bit about how you got kind of started into entrepreneurism first of all, and then maybe how you got into real estate. [00:01:57] Ryan: Yeah, I'll give the quick story. You know, I never wanted to get into real estate or entrepreneurship. I was a baseball player growing up and that was all I wanted to do. I was grateful and thankful that I was able to actually do that. You know, I ended up getting drafted by the Oakland A's and got to play professional baseball for eight years. [00:02:15] But, I didn't get paid much in the minor leagues. I never made it to the bigs. I was making 1200 bucks a month. And so I had to make money elsewhere. And that's what led me in entrepreneurship. You know, I got my real estate license in 2010. Yep. And, you know, so I've been in the game for about 15 years now. [00:02:32] And, you know, I've seen a lot. You know, started as an agent and hated it. My mom was actually a property manager. I didn't tell you that. So, I watched her do that for a little bit while being an agent as well. So she was an agent herself, but you know, watching her, I had no desire to be an agent or do anything in real estate because when I got in in 2010, she had just lost everything. [00:02:53] You know, and she's like, you need to get like a safe job. You need to get something that has a salary and a pension. That was literally her advice. Well, and I was like, yeah, maybe, I don't know. Hopefully this baseball thing works out. But while I'm playing, I can't get that. So I'm going to have to do something. [00:03:11] So anyways, I become an agent. Hate it. Do it for a few years. Ended up getting into other weird things. I started flipping couches. I was a substitute teacher. I was just doing anything that could make a buck on the side. And then eventually that led to flipping houses in 2015. [00:03:27] And that was when I, for the first time, started to make some real money. And yeah, I mean, by my third year, I had made, you know, I became a millionaire after year three, flipping houses. And it was just like, wow, this is crazy. And since then I flipped, you know, I think almost 600, 700 homes. And. You know, I've bought rentals. [00:03:47] I own apartment buildings through our syndication. You know, we've coached people, like you said, with wealthy investor. We've coached thousands of students and held really big events. You know, I've started another subsidiary businesses for real estate investors. You know, we have a lead generation company called Lead Kitchen where we help them get leads for sellers. [00:04:05] We have, you know, I had a tax firm, you know, I've kind of done almost everything you can imagine in the real estate world, but  [00:04:10] Jason: Yeah, that's a lot. So I'm curious you said your mom was a property manager and she gave you the advice It was kind of like maybe steer clear of this stuff. [00:04:19] What does your mom think now about everything?  [00:04:22] Ryan: You know what? She's still always hyper cautious so, you know, I retired my parents in 2019 I bought him a house bought him all the cars and everything and my dad actually started working for me in 2018 as a project manager. So he would oversee a lot of our flips and even to this day, he still does it. [00:04:42] Not cause he has to, because he's just like, well, if you're going to, you know, pay for us, I might as well like earn it, you know, and he just wants to support and whatever. So, You know, my dad understands the game. My mom though, obviously she's seen the results, but she's still always hyper cautious. [00:04:57] And so, she doesn't think I need to get a job now, but she does think a lot of times the big risk I take, I shouldn't be taking.  [00:05:05] Jason: Yeah. Looking back, when do you see in hindsight that there were clues that you were maybe destined to be an entrepreneur? Maybe even doing baseball. [00:05:16] Ryan: Yeah. I look back in hindsight, even as a kid and I was always buying and selling and thinking about money. Like I started an eBay account when I was like 12 years old. I remember. You know, buying stuff and bidding on stuff and getting good deals on eBay. And then I remember I was selling Pokemon cards and Yu Gi Oh cards, you know, in middle school and stuff. [00:05:37] And it's just like, You know, the signs were always there. And then even I was always attracted to just making money myself. So like I was good at poker, you know, I won poker tournaments and I played online and I made money that way. And so in hindsight, it was always very clear. I was never going to have a job. [00:05:53] Really the only true job I ever had was playing baseball. And even then it's like, yeah, there's not really a way to be an entrepreneur. I mean, you kind of are you're in charge of your career and how well you want to do and like how well you want to train and. And so, yeah, even in that sense, baseball is kind of in that same vein. [00:06:12] Jason: Yeah. So I'm sure even to get as far as you got in baseball, there was a lot of drive involved and a lot of effort involved, even though there wasn't a lot of pay, it sounds like.  [00:06:25] Ryan: Yeah, I think yeah, for me, like, I had to learn how to like win, you know, at the end of the day, losing is not an option, right? [00:06:33] It's a zero sum game in sports. One person wins, one person loses, you know, for the pitcher to succeed, you must get out. And so, dude, I'm like, I'm going to just figure out how to win. I'm competitive. And so I think competitiveness has always fueled me. It's different in business now because I understand the games that we play. [00:06:52] It's like, you know, We both can have good podcasts. We both can win in business. You don't need to lose for me to win. But that doesn't mean I'm still not competitive.  [00:07:00] Jason: Sure. Yeah. I'm sure in the different industries that you have businesses that you focus on, you have competitors and you probably want to win. [00:07:09] Ryan: I don't want to lose.  [00:07:11] Jason: Right. I want to be the best. I think that's true of most entrepreneurs. There's this drive or, this bite to win. You know, I remember early on, I think some of my first clues as to that I might be an entrepreneur is I was into music. And I remember in college, I was going around door to door pre selling CDs so that I could fund doing an album. [00:07:31] And yet I still at the time was thinking I've got to get a degree to get some sort of job to rise the corporate ladder. And I had no clue that entrepreneurism was like a path at the time. So it's interesting and Entrepreneurism sort of found me In that I needed a way to not be doing a nine to five job to be able to take care of kids because I ended up as a single father right and divorced and like went through all this stuff. [00:07:57] And so I was like, all right, what can I do? And so I sometimes joke that my kids turned me into an entrepreneur. It was just what needed to be done, but there were always clues before, right? So you know, one of the things that you've talked about a lot, I've noticed on your social media, on podcasts is you're very faith forward. [00:08:15] Like you're very comfortable talking about your faith and like the things that kind of motivate you and drive you. And you're involved in some charitable sort of, you know, businesses or charitable entities or organizations as well. How does faith sort of play into all of this when it comes to business for you? [00:08:33] Ryan: Well, you know, I grew up in the church. So, you know, for those who don't know, I'm a Christian. And you know, I grew up in a baptist church and you know, faith was always a part of my life. And I felt like for the most part, I did things the way God wanted me to. You know, I didn't really rebel and go crazy in college, got married young. [00:08:51] You know, I've always tried to put God first and everything. And You know, I think in the last couple of years, God was just pushing me to get even more deep in faith and more bold and to really embrace the spiritual and supernatural side of faith because I was always a very theologically sound person. [00:09:11] And you know, I've read the Bible many times, and, you know, I spent a lot of time, like I said, in church and serving and other things, but you just realize in everything in life, especially with faith, that there's so little that you actually know, and you know, as I've grown in my faith, I've learned to hear from God better. [00:09:29] And tune out all the noise of everything else going out in life, right? I mean, there's so many distractions in life. There's your business, there's social media, there's your kids, your family, you know, the recession, the election, it's like distraction. I think that's Satan's biggest, yeah, that's Satan's biggest tool is to distract you from the truth. [00:09:49] And so the truth was God wanted me to get more bold and to really use my platform for him, not for me. And, you know, with that, I became convicted to just really go all in because I mean, one thing I guess people would notice about my career too, is like, there's no really lukewarmness, you know, when I go all in on something. [00:10:09] It's like, yo, if we're going to throw an event, it's going to be crazy. If we're going to start this, we're going on a blitz. And so I said, you know what, we need to start something for Christian entrepreneurs and Christian business people. And so, you know, I created Wealthy Kingdom last year and you know, we're a nonprofit and, you know, we have three goals. [00:10:27] Well, I shouldn't say three goals. The one goal, the mission is to bring the kingdom to the marketplace. And what I mean by that is so many entrepreneurs just think it's the church's job to, you know, go get people saved and to go disciple people. And it's like, yeah, you know, just invite them to church on Sunday. [00:10:44] It's like, no, our job, every Christian has this goal or mission. You know, Jesus tells us right before he left, he said that the mission here is you need to go make disciples of all nations. We all have that same mission. And it's like, it's not to make the most money. It's not to do the thing that you love. [00:11:05] Like, Jesus never said do the thing that you love. Like that's another big lie that, you know, people have been told.  [00:11:12] Jason: Jesus didn't even do what he loved necessarily. Like to a degree, he said, I don't even do my own will. Yeah. He does the will of him who sent me. Right. He's like, I'm not even doing my own will. [00:11:22] And so if that's a model, then maybe it's not about just selfishly doing our own will all the time.  [00:11:29] Ryan: Absolutely should not. Our will, as we grow should be more aligned with the father's will. And that's what sanctification is. So anyways, to, to long story short. God called us to go be disciples where we're at. [00:11:42] We don't like, we need to go make disciples of all nations right now. That's in our job, in our career, in our business, at an event, whatever. And so I took that to heart. So we started you know, looking at everything that we currently do. And we said, well, let's do it for the King. And so I said, all right, well, let's get a kingdom based community. [00:12:01] And so, you know, we started an online community because that's something we currently do in business. It's like, well, let's get one kingdom based. And so we have that it's completely free. Anyone can join it. Then I said, let's throw events. We throw a lot of events. Why are we not throwing kingdom events? [00:12:14] And so we started throwing big events for the kingdom. And in fact, in my secular events, I just started throwing worship services and pastors in the middle of the event without even telling anyone. Because I'm like, look, this might be the only time they ever hear the good news in their entire life. [00:12:31] And, you know, whatever they might like it, they might not like it, but I don't really care. They need to hear it. And so we started incorporating faith into our events. You know, and then the last thing was really just discipling the current believers because I'm all about the lost. I want to get the lost at the events. [00:12:50] With our content, with our community, but also too, what about the people who are already saved? Well, we need to disciple them and make them better. And so we started running Bible studies all across the country. And I think we're close to a hundred, actually across the world right now, that meet every single week in people's offices, in their homes. [00:13:07] And we all go through the same studies together in these Bible studies, across as a body. And it's really cool. So, yeah, we're trying to attack it from a lot of different angles.  [00:13:18] Jason: It's a lot to organize.  [00:13:20] Ryan: Oh, yeah. But here's the thing, right? It's weird because I just said, Hey, don't do your will. Do God's will. [00:13:26] Right. But on the same hand, God gave us all talents, abilities and different life experiences. And so, you know, he calls us to use those to do his will and it's like all right god gave me a lot of influence online. Why am I not making videos and content, you know helping people understand what that means? [00:13:47] God gave me the ability to throw massive events. We threw wealth con every quarter a thousand plus people every quarter for years. Why am I not throwing massive events for the kingdom? God gave me the ability to organize communities and groups and all these things. Why am I not organizing and using my administrative gifts to do that? And it's like it's all the same thing, and they're all the same gifts and they're all the same skill sets, but on one hand you're putting him first and on the other hand you're putting yourself first  [00:14:16] Jason: Yeah, I love the idea of you know positively impacting the world I think business a lot of people don't realize I think business really there's no more efficient business model for positively changing the world than business, right? [00:14:31] I don't think charities don't function as well like businesses. There's an exchange of value And if there's value like behind it and there's a mission and a purpose behind it Then even the team members the employees everybody Are more lit up and excited and so business is a very efficient business model and you know, one of my past mentors, Alex Charfen, and he would say something to the effect of like entrepreneurs are the people that have changed the world throughout history. [00:14:57] They're the people that kind of think differently. And you know, you mentioned the word disciple like several times and I love the scripture where it's like, how do you know who's a disciple, right? And it's by this shall men know, right? You're my disciple. If you have loved one towards another and I think you know this spreading this message of like sharing true principles Which I think is what makes scripture, right? [00:15:20] It's that there's true principles that can be applied to things that are useful and I think a really good business book will have maybe one key principle it teaches, but then you take a book like the bible and it's just full of lots of different instances of principles that these levers that you can apply to various situations in your life or in decision making. [00:15:39] And you know, that's always been sort of my purpose, I feel is to bring principles to people and to share principles of truth to others, because I feel like that's the easiest lever to impact people's mindset or change their lives is to bring some truth or light or some true principles that they can apply, especially if it's facilitating more love or more kindness. [00:16:01] And there's so many different things different principles that apply in business in order to figure things out like related hiring related to you know running an efficient business  [00:16:11] Ryan: How do you know like a non profit is a business right? I mean, it's a non profit.  [00:16:15] Jason: Yeah, it is. It is a business. Yeah. [00:16:17] Ryan: A church is a business technically based on its designation, Wealthy Kingdom is a business. [00:16:22] It's a nonprofit, right? I mean, in many cases, well, I shouldn't say this because every nonprofit's different, but like for me, I make literally nothing from it. You know, I do it out of a, you know, I just want to do it. Now we have employees, we have staff, we have marketing, we have event costs, we got to pay for all this stuff. [00:16:38] Right. And so we got to figure out, man, how do we use the resources we have in the best way possible? Well, it's the same thing we ask ourself every day in business. We have a limited amount of labor, a limited amount of capital, a limited amount of time. What do we do, you know, to make the most of it? So it's all the same. [00:16:57] And I think too, right, you don't even have to have a nonprofit for this to be the example, right? This is just simply the idea of stewardship. You know, God talks a lot about stewardship and it's like, well. I've given y'all different varying degrees of talent. I've put y'all in different places. Y'all are going to be judged accordingly based on how you used your talent. [00:17:16] And I think that, well, I know that 1, 000, and a lot of Christians don't realize this. A lot of Christians, so, for all the Christians on the show, this is going to hopefully convict you, okay? A lot of people think that when you get saved, that's the end of the journey. Yeah, when literally that is like they've arrived they're done. [00:17:39] You just started! Great! [00:17:41] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:41] Ryan: Now guess what you your whole rest of your life now actually begins and so many people like, God tells us that hey, guess what? Once you're saved, you know, there's a new judgment now. Because before it was like, all right, what happens in eternity, right? You're going to be in heaven. [00:17:58] You're going to be in hell. That's like the salvation question, but then there's this next question about judgment and stewardship and what you did with what he gave you because Somebody like myself and you will be judged more harshly than other christians and people are like, what does that mean? [00:18:18] Well, it means that if he gave you more resource and he even says if you're a teacher and you cause other people to stumble, you are going to be judged significantly more harshly than others. And so I take that super serious because I'm like, all right, yeah, I'm saved. I'm not worried about that, but man, I better do everything in my power to be a great steward and to understand if I have influence and I'm teaching people, I know exactly what I'm saying. [00:18:44] Jason: Yeah, it's much like the Parable of the Talents, you know, the worst was like to try and bury it and hide it, hide the money. The person that did the best with the money that he trusted with the most money, like, made twice as much money, like, he increased it significantly, right?  [00:19:00] Ryan: And he was also given the person's talent that, who buried his talent. [00:19:04] Jason: Exactly. He's like, I'm going to take it away from you because you don't know how to use this or how to deal with it. And so I think there's a nice summation of business in that for us, like where much is given, much is required and yeah, I've got a little bit of an audience. [00:19:18] You've got a little bit of an audience as well, right? We've got these audiences and people are listening, people pay attention to what we're doing And you know, we have a ripple effect. And I have a ripple effect through my clients who have a ripple effect through all the families that they support, the investors, the team members that they have. And that's significant and to me, that's exciting. Like, that's what motivates me to do what I do. [00:19:43] That's inspiring. But yeah, I could see that some people would maybe it would convict them. Maybe they would feel maybe they feel a little ashamed if they thought about it, man, you know, the energy I'm putting out into the world and in the universe here, isn't the ripple that I really feel is the best ripple I could create. [00:19:59] Ryan: Well, the other part, too, is obviously we have ripples here on Earth, but, you know, there are ripples for eternity based on our decisions for the people we help and everything else, and, you know, the Bible talks about how, you know, you store up your treasures in heaven, and if you read, you know, a lot of Christians also don't know this, they think that Heaven is this place where everybody's equal and, you know, we're all in the same thing. [00:20:25] No, it's actually not like there's hierarchies in heaven there. Like it's clear when the disciples are talking to Jesus and they're like, man, dude, I want to sit on your right hand. He's like, you don't even know what you're asking for. And. you know, they're clearly trying to be in that inner circle after this too. [00:20:43] And, you know, you could read all about it. There's hierarchy with demons. There's hierarchy with angels. Hierarchy is going to be in heaven. It's already there. And it's like, you know, you got a lot of investors on this podcast who are like, Oh man, I got to invest for the future. I got to get my net worth here. [00:21:01] I got to get my cashflow here. I got to. And it's like, we're investing trying to build for the future of this life. And once you truly understand that this life is so short in the span of eternity, you start thinking very differently. And you're like, well, I would rather invest for eternity. And actually, we just read this book in our Wealthy Kingdom group. [00:21:21] It's called Driven by Eternity by John Bevere. It's a great, one of the most convicting books I've ever read. But, he goes, alright. He's like, I learned this in math. Anything divided by infinity is infinity. And it's like, eternity is infinity, right? But if you were to try and even just, finitely say it with our brains, let's just say the next 24 hours, we're going to dictate the next thousand years of your reward here on earth, right? [00:21:48] How you spent the next 24 hours would dictate what reward you got for the next thousand years. You'd be like, that's insane, right? That doesn't seem right. That, you know, this is going to be  [00:22:00] Jason: proportionately skewed. To this moment. Yeah, it's- [00:22:04] Ryan: that's not even close to infinity.  [00:22:07] Jason: Yeah.  [00:22:08] Ryan: We spend 100 years here on this earth thinking we have all this time. In the scheme of infinity, it's worse than way where it could be 24 hours to 10, 000 years to a million years, a billion years. It's still not infinity. And yeah, people just don't, they don't think about it because it's so hard to grasp. But it's like I wish and this is why god has you know kind of got me more vocal about it. [00:22:33] So we're talking about it now But it's like I want investors because I'm an investor right now, you know, like I'm always looking for the best investment I'm always looking for the best use of my time, but I want people to start thinking about man, Invest for eternity. That's way longer than this! Your retirement is way shorter than infinity and eternity. [00:22:54] Jason: Though, could Jesus be a house flipper in the eternities? Because he says in my father's house, there's many mansions, right? And he said, I'm going to prepare something for you guys. And so I think what you're talking about is maybe we should be paying a little less attention maybe to just our real estate assets and our investing here and maybe do some heavenly real estate investing. [00:23:17] Ryan: I'm being 1, 000, that's 1, 000 percent what I'm saying. And it's changed my mindset so much in the last year that I could care less about my net worth. I could care less about how many properties I own. I could care less about any of it. Because eternity is so much greater.  [00:23:36] Jason: So some people might be saying, Ryan, come on. [00:23:38] You're wealthy now. You run Wealthy Investor. You've got money. So it's easy for you to say that. What would you say to the naysayers?  [00:23:46] Ryan: I would say that I've had a certain level of contentness, no matter how much money I had. I made 1200 bucks my entire 20s a month. Okay. So like, I understand what it is to have nothing. [00:23:57] And you know, people always make an excuse, right? It's like, I got three kids and a wife, five, five and under, man, I got a special needs son. I spend a lot of time with my kids. And it's like, well, you know, that's cause you, everybody's default is that's cause you have money or this or that. [00:24:14] It's like, no, all these things were built with nothing. They were all built simultaneously. It wasn't that, oh, this came after that. It's like, no, they were all built in the same construct. So people just need to realize it's just an excuse. It's a cop out. Right. And the other part too, is it's just a fact of not trusting what the Bible says. [00:24:33] So if you're not Christian- [00:24:34] Jason: which essentially is just not trusting God,  [00:24:37] Ryan: Yeah, and if you're not Christian and you don't believe it, that's one thing. But if you are a Christian, you cannot say that you are a Christian and then claim that. It is a lie. And it's like, if you read Matthew 6:33, seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, then everything else will be added to you. [00:24:54] And so this is where it comes into play of like, if I'm seeking those eternal rewards, everything else will be added to me. Now, does that mean I'm going to be a hundred millionaire billionaire own all these prop-? No, but I do know I'm going to be just fine here on earth. Like, I don't have to worry about that. [00:25:11] Like I'll be taken care of. It'll be added to me. So I just trust that promise.  [00:25:17] Jason: Yeah. I think I've always just trusted, even when money was tight, I've always trusted in my ability to figure things out and that God's going to take care of me. I just, I bought  [00:25:27] Ryan: money's been tight for me many times after I've been rich. [00:25:30] Jason: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:25:31] Ryan: Like so many times every business owner every you know, Elon Musk, dude I mean the richest man in the world, right? This guy struggles with money like, you know Yeah, dude, he had to buy Twitter for 50 billion dollars he didn't have 50 billion dollars just laying around It was like the last hour to figure out how to go buy that thing. You know, they tell the story of how he invested all of his, like, 300 million he got from PayPal into Tesla and SpaceX and they were going to both go bankrupt and not make it. [00:26:01] Yeah. So, you know, I guess it all just is, like, it comes back to this idea that people think that there's a certain amount of wealth that prevents you from, you know, ever having to work again. And that's not true. It's just not true. Like, it can all be taken from you instantly.  [00:26:16] Jason: So, here's a thought I have that I think might convict, as you say, you know, Christians or just other people that claim to believe in God. [00:26:24] Is one thing I've noticed is you know, especially among, I guess, poor christians or people that have money issues is that I've noticed this action of cursing reality while claiming to love god. It's like oh well this sucks and this and they're kind of they're negative about everything showing up in reality and my favorite name for God in a lot of instances is reality because he says I am what is I am the truth he's the ultimate and reality always wins God always ultimately wins and I don't think it's fair for a christian to claim, I'm like so like faithful to god yet I'm going to curse my reality and complain about reality and complain about how everything is and complain about my family and my spouse and my job and the world and everything else. And there's such a difference I think in people that are at odds with reality which reality will always win. Reality doesn't lie reality is what is and those that are actually in alignment with reality, and align their will to god. [00:27:29] What do you think of that?  [00:27:30] Ryan: Yeah, I mean look god has been here way before us and here's another thing. I tell people I'm just like, all right, look, you know Even if you're not a Christian, right? I think majority of people believe there is something after this life. People believe there is, you know, some supernatural thing. [00:27:47] Most people would believe in the afterlife and whatever. And then, you know, almost everyone agrees there was nothing and then there was something right. And we would call this the creation of the world. But you know, my belief is, you know, It's based on the Bible, and the Bible tells us that there was a supernatural world well before this physical world you know, God talks about there was angels, there was all these things happening well before he created the earth, and the earth is going to pass away, and then, you know, You know, it's going to be back to how it was. [00:28:16] And you know, it's like, and you know, there's going to be a new heaven, new earth, all these things, but my point with that is God was always, that's just the best he has always been. He will always will be. He will always like he's past, present, future. He's just all present. And you know, The other part I struggle with a lot of Christians is they just don't understand the power that they have. [00:28:44] You know, they walk in weakness. And in reality, it's like, Do you realize, an axe, Jesus said or not an axe, but in the Gospels, and then it happened, an axe. He said, look it's good that I'm leaving you, because you're going to get something far better than just me being here with you physically. You're going to get the Helper, and then an axe, they receive the Holy Spirit, literally God living within them, inside of them. [00:29:08] And it's like, you have literally the same God that has always been here, that created you, that created this world living inside of you, and you're worried? What would you ever be worried about? You know, just think like back to just metaphors, you know, would you ever be worried if like, you know financially if you had just like all this money just with you at all times? [00:29:31] No, you wouldn't be worried financially. Would you be worried for your physical safety if you had the most elite killers as bodyguards around you at all times? No, you wouldn't be worried about your safety. You know, like, we have something so much better than all of those things, and we're worried. [00:29:46] We think we can't do things. We don't trust.  [00:29:50] Jason: So this is a good question. Let's bring this back to entrepreneurism. How can people, maybe they don't believe in God, maybe they, they do, but how do they bring themselves, do you feel, and how do you do this? How do you bring yourself in alignment with this greater power for those that maybe can just believe that or towards the universe or the God that created it? [00:30:12] How do we start to get ourselves in alignment? So we know we're on the right path.  [00:30:15] Ryan: Well, this doesn't apply to just God. But this is just everything in life, right? You are what you consume. So if I consume junk food and crap, then, you know, I'm going to be fat and my energy will suck and all those things, right? [00:30:30] Or like for another example, right? If I consume the news all day, 24 seven, right? I'm probably going to be a very skeptical, not trusting person. I'm going to have biases, all these things. Yeah. If I consume entrepreneur content all day and I watch all these guys I'm probably just going to be thinking about making money 24 seven, right? [00:30:48] You are what you consume in all areas of life and you know, you are the average of the five people you hang around with all of these things are a form of just what you consume And so if you want to become more like jesus you have to consume and get around people that are like Jesus. And so, you know, what does that look like? [00:31:05] Well, it looks like reading your Bible every day. It looks like praying every day. It looks like hanging around, you know, other Christians who are walking the walk. It looks like going to church on Sundays. It looks like listening to sermons, listening to worship music. You know, you just have to immerse yourself in it and consume it. And that's how you're going to become more aligned. It's crazy because like, I'll tell you this, and this could sound extreme to people, but it's like, you start to realize the rest of the things in the world that are deception, right? It's like, I used to not think rap music and things were like bad. [00:31:38] You know, I used to listen to gangster rap all the time, man. I love Tupac and all these guys. And then you start to just like, you know, they call me little Ryan. You know, you look, you listen to the lyrics, you know, from a different point of view and you're like, Oh my gosh, this is not good. This is crazy that I listened to this when I was a kid, I should not have been listening to this. [00:31:59] Right. Because you start to get convicted if you watch porn, it's like you're going to start looking at your wife a different way because you're just you're consuming the wrong things. Yeah. Yeah, and even little things start to convict you too. It's like, for the first time ever, we didn't celebrate Halloween this year. [00:32:15] Because I just became convicted that you know, its origins are demonic. And it's like, you just watch all of this stuff with it. And it's like, yeah, definitely none of this glorifies God. If it doesn't glorify God, why would I do it? You know? And it's like it glorifies demons and, you know, all of these dark things, it's like, that doesn't seem proper. [00:32:39] Jason: Yeah, like, you know, it's kind of that balance of how to be in the world, but not of the world, right? Like Jesus was hanging out with publicans and sinners and he was around people, but he also wasn't like just doing everything that they were doing. And so, yeah, I think that's an interesting concept. [00:32:53] I like, though, what you said about. And that wasn't even where my head was going, when I asked the question, but I love that you said like look at the people that you're choosing to be around. There's a consumption there and There's this book called the Dark Side of the Light Chasers it's by Debbie Ford and it's interesting because she talks about in it that we each have this golden side and we also have this dark side to us and the golden side Is the side of ourselves that we see reflected in others that we of the people that we look up to. And there's different people that kind of trigger that in us. [00:33:25] Some people, for example, like look at Donald Trump, very polarizing figure. Some people look at him and are very triggered and their dark side is triggered. They see a narcissist, they see all these negative attributes and then there's some that look at him and they're like, Oh, he's an entrepreneur or he's strong or he's masculine or whatever. [00:33:42] Right? And they look at the golden side. And I think what we see in other people and the people we choose to be around, we want to choose to be around people that we perceive as having a light. Somebody that has something that we want and attributes that we want to become more like. And I think choosing to do that, especially in choosing mentors, is important. [00:34:01] Because you're going to ultimately become a little bit more like them. And that doesn't mean every mentor that I choose is, like, ahead of me in every key area of life. But if they're at least in the area a little bit ahead of me in success in the area I'm getting coaching from then I'm going to absorb that but I'm careful not to take on everything else and to be discerning and to use discernment. [00:34:23] I think it's important like you said to be around people that you perceive as being a high caliber or people that you believe are moving towards greater light.  [00:34:33] Ryan: I agree with all of it.  [00:34:36] Jason: Love that. All right. So Ryan, what if somebody is listening to this and we talked a lot about like kind of faith, God, religion, stuff like this, and somebody who's like, okay, maybe I'm willing to entertain the idea that God exists. [00:34:54] Maybe Jesus is somebody I should like figure out, what would you say is a good first step for those people?  [00:35:02] Ryan: Well, you know, obviously like the Bible is the truth, right? That's God's revelation to us. And so a lot of people are like, well, I don't even know where to start with the Bible. I would say step one buy a study Bible. [00:35:13] So I would just go on Amazon. I would just, I would get an IV study Bible. It's very simple. So that way it has you know, just notes on the side for you to help you understand what it's saying and different questions. And so, you know, I have a study Bible right here. So this is, you know, maybe you can find this one on Amazon. [00:35:31] This is called the Quest Study Bible. Now, this Bible is like 15 years old. So maybe this one, they don't make this one anymore. But actually, I know they do make a version of it. It's not called the Quest Study Bible anymore, but just look at the NIV Study Bible. And I would start in Matthew. [00:35:44] That is the very beginning of the New Testament. I would just start in Matthew and read it all the way through. So, unlike other books where you start at the very beginning. You're going to start about two thirds of the way through in Matthew and just trust me, it'll make sense. So that would be step one. [00:35:58] Step two, I would say, you know, obviously you want to get plugged into a local church. That, that's a lot harder for somebody who doesn't know anything. So here's what I would advise is join us at Wealthy Kingdom. So it's wealthykingdom.Com. Everything's free. You can be a part of the community and you can get plugged into a Bible study with other entrepreneurs in your area or virtually. So that's going to be your best place to really build connections because you're going to also be around other people who understand the actual life that you live right now. And they're open. We have lots of non believers in our Bible studies who are there to learn, man. [00:36:34] They're like, look, I'm here to learn. I don't know. I don't believe. I don't even know what you believe, but I'm here to learn. And so we, we love those types of people. So I would, those would be the two steps I do because I don't know everybody here listening is listening to different things. So I don't know what local church you should go to or anything. [00:36:52] So come join us virtually. And then you're probably going to meet people in Wealthy Kingdom that are in your area, especially the local Bible study. And they're going to know what local church for you to go to.  [00:37:02] Jason: Got it. You know, this is maybe a controversial hot take of, mine But I feel like a lot of people get so caught up in trying even among christians or non christians trying to prove whether the bible and everything in it is factual history or not It's like facts and data. [00:37:19] They're trying to prove it and I think both sides miss sight of the most important elements, which is are there true principles that are applicable? Can you apply these things to your life? Are they useful tools? And I think that's the real measure of a principle, whether it's true or not, is you try it out. [00:37:38] You test this, try this on in your life and see if the fruit is good. See if it gives you positive results. Does it give you positive results to believe these things? Or does it cause, you know, does it take you in the opposite direction? Do you feel like you're moving towards something higher? Or is it taking you backwards? [00:37:57] Ryan: Yeah, there's biblical truth to that. You know, there was a reason Jesus performed miracles, you know, like a lot of people, a lot of people are like, well, why? Right? He could have just said all the things he said, hey, you know, don't steal. You know, follow the Ten Commandments. Love your neighbor. [00:38:13] Everybody can agree with those things. But it's like, yo. I'm going to make this person the lord of my life, which he was asking them to do, to believe that he's the son of God, to believe and give their entire life to him. It's like, well, dude, you better show me something else if you want me to commit to that degree. [00:38:31] And you know, that's why he performed signs and wonders to show them that, hey, look, I am the one. And You know, it's true, right? Like, that's why he did it. And that's why all of the disciples you know, were killed for preaching it well after he was gone, because they saw it, they believed, and they knew that the reward, you know, was going to be great eternally, right? [00:38:52] Look, Jesus says it to Doubting Thomas too, when he returns, right? A lot of the disciples believe, they're like, Oh dude, like he's back. And then Thomas is like, I ain't believing until I see him. Until I see the holes in his body. And so Jesus comes back and he's like, Look, Thomas, feel the hole, right? [00:39:08] Shows him the hole in his hands. And he's like, blessed are those who believe without seeing.  [00:39:12] Their faith is stronger, but still, it's all good that you needed to see to believe. Like, it's all good. And so. There are going to be people who listen to this and they're like, I believe all this makes sense. [00:39:26] And then there are going to be those who say no, I need to see the fruit. I need to see why I should believe. And in fact, I still believe miracles happen today. I've seen them with my own hands. I've prayed for miracles that cannot be explained other than they were miraculous. And you know, with that, it's like both happen. [00:39:43] Jason: I think that I think if we're really created in the image of God,. Then I think that is a clue that we might be a lot more powerful than we realize and you know there's even evidence that the placebo effect is getting stronger as time goes on. So like as they do drug testing and stuff like this drugs have to pass a certain test that they're stronger than placebo. The challenge is drugs are having a harder and harder time showing that they're stronger than placebo because the placebo effect is actually getting stronger. And I think that humanity worked our consciousness is raising a bit. [00:40:19] I think that people are realizing that we are creators, that we are more powerful than we give ourselves credit. And, you know, Jesus says, if you have faith, like a grain of a mustard seed, you could like move a mountain or something. Right. And so I think that I think there is something to, you know, this idea that we can create this positive future or alter our reality or alter things real time, like people's physical health or blessing people or different things. I do think that miracles can occur and there's evidence of it happening all the time. And I think in religion, see, I grew up Mormon. And I'm a very ultra conservative. [00:41:00] I was a Mormon missionary for two years and then eventually left it. I didn't even try alcohol until I was over 30. And I'm the only one in my family that, that left. I'm the black sheep and I'm the oldest of five boys. So, sorry mom, sorry dad.  [00:41:14] Ryan: I'm not happy with you.  [00:41:15] Jason: They still love me, but I think one of the things that I, and I'm grateful for all that I learned, like we, we did, I did a lot of religious study growing up and I was the one that just kept digging until I took my way out of it, I guess. [00:41:26] Ryan: Mormon apologetics is a tough thing to defend.  [00:41:30] Jason: Yeah. So I think you know, there's a lot of people think that they need to sell some sort of gospel or good news of, Jesus or the christian church by convincing people their life is going to suddenly be magical or better and that's not always true, and I don't think that's the whole point is that you don't magically make everything about your external circumstances in your life better, but I think being more in alignment with god and being more connected allows you this greater strength to weather what's happening. [00:42:02] I mean if you look at what happened to Peter or any of the apostles, like they suffered horrible deaths. I don't know that their life magically became more amazing because they followed Jesus, but they had that conviction and they knew truth. And I think in a lot of instances, becoming Christian or believing in Jesus or following his principles may make your life in some instances, more challenging, you know, maybe there's more fiery darts thrown at you by the adversary, for example, but I do believe that there's some sort of there's some sort of power and confidence that comes with knowing that your personal life and will is in alignment with God wants for you. [00:42:45] Like you're following that calling and that knowing within, and there's a strength that comes from that, that nobody else can shake. It doesn't matter like what your parents are saying to you. It doesn't matter what your spouse maybe is concerned about. It doesn't matter if you know, you're doing what is right, then you're willing to just let the consequences follow. [00:43:03] And that's different than just looking for this better life or a mansion here on earth instead of a mansion in heaven.  [00:43:10] Ryan: Yeah, and you know, Jesus said hey you got to pick up your cross and follow me. It's like picking up your cross literally means dying to your old self and giving your all to Jesus And you know somebody's like oh, but like I got to say bye and to my dad and I gotta bury and he's no. [00:43:27] No, this has nothing to do with your current family. This is about you and me You know, whether or not you're going to follow. And you know, I've met many Mormon, ex Mormons, Jews, Muslims, people who have given their life to Jesus. And you know, it's tough because there's so many family dynamics that go on to it. [00:43:46] And it's like, it ain't easy. And I feel for those people, cause that, that's very hard. But I also am a believer that, you know, through your faith and through, you know, those who make that commitment, they have the chance to impact their families. So much more and they can be sanctified through them. [00:44:02] Jason: Yeah, I mean I had a meeting with the mastermind this morning and we were talking about distractions And we were all these they're all men and we're all sharing like what's distracting us and what's holding us you know back from the things we should be doing and you know and I was thinking about you know, just how can I be a better father? [00:44:21] How can I be a better partner, a better spouse? How can it be a better business leader? And at the stage I'm at now, it's just more discipline. It's less distractions. And it's all like cutting out all of the fat and the little things that are so easily taking us. And that's kind of what you led us into here in the beginning. [00:44:39] You know, what do you, what would you say to those that are just, they're trying to run their business, they're dealing with a lot of distractions, which is common for entrepreneurs. We see shiny objects everywhere. How do they get focused and how they start, how did they start listening to that inner voice that connects them with the divine so they can start making the right moves? [00:45:00] Ryan: Well, I think it's very simple, right? You just make God the focus. You just have to trust that if you make him the focus. Everything else will fall into place. And then it goes back to Matthew 6, 33, seek first the kingdom and his righteousness and everything else will be added to you. And that's faith. [00:45:18] That's faith in a nutshell, because you'll be like, well, don't understand the fires that I have, Ryan. You don't understand the drama and the problems. My kids are doing this, my relationship with my wife sucks. Like I got to focus over there in order to fix. You know, well, before I can go worry about God. [00:45:35] I mean, that's like the biggest thing I hear all the time too. It's like, well, I. Once I get my life right, then I'll start going to church. I'm like, no, you can't get your life right. That's why Jesus paid the price, because you can't. It's the same funny thing I hear when people are like-  [00:45:49] Jason: it's like saying once I get abs, I'll stop eating candy bars. [00:45:53] Ryan: Yeah, well, I was going to use a health example too where I hear this actually from people because I was in sports for so long Hey, I'm going to get in shape first, then I'm going to go get a trainer and start you know, because I'm not ready to go train with them like, that's too hard. I got to like get in shape first and I'm like, dude. [00:46:09] No, that's why you need a trainer like no, And yeah, it's the same thing with faith. It's like if you follow god and you seek his ways I mean just like you've been saying from a practical standpoint. If you follow what the Bible says, your relationship with your wife will get better. Like, you're just going to be a better leader, you're going to serve her, you're going to be different. [00:46:27] Your relationship with your kids will get better. The relationship with your employees will get better. The way you act in business will be better. You know? And it doesn't mean that it's going to be easy. I didn't say it was going to be easy. I just said, it's going to get better. And you know, I've had, yeah. And I had, I've had so many difficult situations in business, you know, lost millions, investors pissed, customers pissed, lawsuits. [00:46:53] I've dealt with everything you could imagine in business. And guess what? Every time I've been able to get through it and it's because of my faith and I didn't know how I would get through it. I didn't know what the outcome would be. I didn't know how I would solve it. But I can tell you I slept pretty good throughout all of it because I just knew God would take care of it some way somehow. [00:47:16] Jason: You knew it would be figured out and you felt like you had somebody on your side that's pretty powerful.  [00:47:21] Ryan: I mean, God promises to be on my side.  [00:47:23] Jason: Yeah.  [00:47:24] Ryan: You know, Romans 8, 28 says that, you know, he works all things for my good, for those who believe.  [00:47:30] Jason: Even the tough stuff.  [00:47:32] Ryan: All things, not some things.  [00:47:34] Jason: Whom God loves, he chastens. Despise not the chastening of the Lord, right? So may not necessarily be easy, but yeah, it'll be worth it.  [00:47:41] Ryan: Don't expect anything to be easy.  [00:47:43] Jason: Right. I think we go into it, we should expect things to be hard and worth it. And I think when we're, it's kind of like the old stoic adage, you know, hard choices, easy life. [00:47:53] Easy choices, hard life. We all know people that they're focused on ease. They're focused on trying to have comfort They're focused on how do I how do I avoid doing stuff? I just want to relax. I just want my weekend I just want time and I think as i've grown into adulthood and you know focus more on stepping more into my masculinity. [00:48:13] I've realized that you know, nobody's coming to save us, except maybe Jesus, right? Nobody's coming to do it for us. There's a level of work that's expected and we need to get beyond always seeking comfort because comfort is a deceptive and alluring sort of drug and we need to be willing to put in the work put in the effort and focus and put in that discipline and then life gets a lot easier overall Like life gets a lot better overall when we're disciplined. Disciplined people don't cheat on their spouses. [00:48:47] Disciplined people like, you know, take care of their kids and spend time with them on the weekend. Disciplined people you know, focus and take care of their health so they have less health issues. They're putting their own oxygen mask on first, so to speak, so they can take care of others, right? [00:49:02] And that's it. That's discipline. And I think that's important. Well, Ryan we're about out of time. I really appreciate you coming on the show. This has been I think inspiring conversation. It's got my brain sort of running in a bunch of different directions thinking about, you know, how can I be better and how can I evolve as a human? [00:49:19] What would you like to say in your final words to those listening to this podcast and maybe how they can get in touch with you or your various businesses.  [00:49:30] Ryan: Yeah, I think you know, as far as getting in touch with me, that's easy. You can just go on social media, search Ryan Pineda, wherever. [00:49:37] So that part's easy. I would say the final thing to leave him with, I mean, we've talked a lot about faith and eternity and everything else. And that's usually the final thing I leave on podcasts because I don't depending on where the conversation goes, right? You know, I'll always draw it back to faith. [00:49:51] So I would just say that, man, I mean, like, look there's a common theme for what we're saying. It's like, life's going to be hard one way or the other, you know, you're going to go through tough times. You are going to have uncertainty. You're not going to know if things are going to work out or not the way that you're hoping. [00:50:08] You know, One thing I know for sure is, and this will apply for both ways, not just faith, but also business and faith. When you start becoming process driven more than results driven, your life changes. Because you're never going to be up and down with the result. You're always just trusting the process. [00:50:28] And so, you know, baseball, we had to learn this every day. It's like, I don't know who's pitching tomorrow. I don't know. Like, I just got to trust my routine, my process, and then I'm doing the right things every day. And if I follow that, I know I'm going to get the best result that I possibly can get. In the long run, and I think you were referencing that when it comes to, Hey, you know what? [00:50:46] Even if you don't believe these biblical principles are going to change your life, that's a form of trusting the process. And if you do, you know, you'll end up getting better results just overall, whether you believe or not, and you just follow that process. And then, you know, I would say even to take it a step further, it's like, man, if you trust that he is the creator of this world and he has promised to take care of you then that's a process to choose to have faith and trust that's the case, to trust that his plan is better than your plan. And it's not easy because we all want control. We all want certainty. That's, you know, that's our human nature. [00:51:21] That's why we're trying to get financially free. That's why we're trying to you know, get enough cash flow and I teach on these things like I get it. But there's a better plan. And you know, if you just trust the process every day of following him, he will make your path straight, you know? And so I've seen that in my own life. [00:51:42] I'll tell you this. I never thought I'd be a podcaster, an events guy, a social media guy. I never thought that was going to be the thing, but. I felt like God was calling me down that path, and here we are. And I don't know where he's going to call me the next 10 years. I don't have a 10 year plan. I don't have any of that, and I don't care. [00:51:59] All I'm trying to do is whatever God's calling me to do at this moment, and I want to be flexible to his will, and be very careful not to just insert my will. And that's it, right?  [00:52:10] Jason: Yeah, appreciate it. You know, appreciate you coming on the show. I think, I agree. I think you know, even if you, For some reason don't want to be christian you don't you don't you're opposed for some reason. [00:52:23] Some people are just like opposed to the bible, just look at the bible through the lens of what are the principles that have made this book one of the greatest books of all time? Why has it stood out? Why has it stood the test of time? Why do so many people look to it for wisdom and for insight? There's so much wisdom in there and if you can at least just be willing to extract wisdom wherever you can find it, then you're not an idiot And so at least start there, everybody listening, just look for wisdom, be a seeker of wisdom and look for the things that are better and higher. [00:52:53] And that's going to eventually lead you to better and higher things and help you to weather the storm. And you can tell Ryan has, you know, he has this confidence that comes from knowing it's not all reliant on him. He trusts that there's something greater than him that's going to give him a source of power or ideas or decision making or guide his paths and to not have that for those of you listening must be terrifying. It must feel a little bit scary to just not have nothing else above you to reach up to. And so there is a god. There's somebody reach up to, go ahead and test it out. [00:53:29] My way of aligning towards God is to sit, read things that I feel like lead me closer to something better and higher. That could be scripture, whatever, or to meditate on something, but then to think, how can I align my will with that? What is that voice inside? What is that calling telling me to do and take those actions and do it. [00:53:47] If you don't take those actions, listen to it, that voice will get quieter. But if you start to listen to that voice and take those actions, it's going to get more and more clear to the point where you have that confidence to go out and make decisions. So I think that's a good ending note here. [00:54:01] So Ryan this is a very different podcast episode than we've ever done here on the DoorGrow show. So there we go. I like it. The most impactful one though. I appreciate you inspiring us to get into faith and chat about that. All right. And And that'll be it for today's show until next time everybody to our mutual growth If you are struggling within your property management business to figure out how to figure out what you need to do next in your business operationally or how to add doors, reach out to us. We'd love to support you. Check us out at doorgrow. com and that's it. Bye everyone. [00:54:33] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:54:59] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

TOPIC: Experts Joel, Hake, Hassan and Sean on the BQ, EMILY TX: "question about the Bible", RYAN OH: "what to forgive my parents for?", HAKE NEWS

On this episode of The Steve Dangle Podcast, the Leafs trade for Ryan O'Reilly and the Blackhawks loss doesn't matter (00:00), Michael Bunting will never get a call ever again (48:00), Andrew Berkshire doesn't think the Bruins will win the Cup (58:00), are the St. Louis Blues in on Timo Meier? (1:08:00), Mark Messier story time (1:13:00), Trotz to Nashville? (1:23:00), and outdoor game stories (1:28:00). Recorded: February 21, 2023 Visit https://sdpn.ca for merch and more. Any opinion expressed is not advice, a promise or suggestion that increases the chance of winning. Gambling can be addictive, please play responsibly. To learn more, visit: https://help.sportsinteraction.com/hc/en-us/articles/216779528-Responsible-Gaming-Self-Limitation-Self-Exclusion Or if you have concerns about a gambling problem, call ConnexOntario 1-866-531-2600. Ontario Only. Must be 19+ or older to play. Visit this episode's sponsors: https://sportsinteraction.com/sdpn https://onepeloton.ca/home-trial https://athleticgreens.com/sdp https://betterhelp.com/sdp Follow us on Twitter:@Steve_Dangle, @AdamWylde, & @JesseBlake Follow us on Instagram:@SteveDangle, @AdamWylde, & @Jesse.Blake Reach out to https://www.sdpn.ca/sales to connect with our sales team and discuss the opportunity to integrate your brand within our content! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Support Natalie on gofundme Follow Natalie on Instagram @natalieryan114560 Like, subscribe, and leave a review Use code OHNO for free shipping on any item over at our Teespring store! Use code OHNO10 for 10% off over at discbaron.com Linktree: /ohnodiscgolf Instagram: @ohnodiscgolf Facebook: /ohnodiscgolf Twitter: @ohnodiscgolf Tiktok: @ohnodiscgolf Youtube: Search OH NO Disc Golf Patreon: /ohnodiscgolf Notes from the Episode Winner of the 2022 MVP Open and 2022 DGLO Tell us a little bit about yourself. How and when did disc golf come into your life? When did you know you wanted to do this for more than a hobby? Why do people continue to hide behind the lie that discriminating against trans athletes somehow protects other athletes in the sport? What are your tour plans for the year? What course is your favorite on tour? What is your worst or most memorable Oh No moment from your time on tour? Do you have a favorite snack on the course? What can we and our audience do to help? Let everyone know where they can follow your journey. Is there anything else we missed that you would like to talk about?

Get in the hot seat! Anne & Lau put on their casting director hats as they host live auditions with members of the BOSS community. There is something magical about a live audition…especially when the casting directors switch up the script at the last minute. These auditionees were on their toes, reading cold & nailing it. Anne & Lau share their favorite tips for before the audition & reflect on all that went right (and wrong). Stay tuned to hear who got a callback + will be featured in next week's episode. Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Woohoo!. Hey everyone. Welcome to the Vo BOSS podcast and the Business Superpower series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, along with my very special guest co-host Lau Lapides. Woohoo. Lau: Hey everyone. Anne: Hey Lau. Lau: Happy Saturday. Anne: Lau, we have a extra special podcast edition today. We are doing live auditions for the very first time, and I am so excited. Lau: I love it. I love it. It's my specialty. I can't wait, Anne, can't wait. Anne: And we are going to be having people come on doing live auditions as well as people in the audience and will be joining us later on for a Q and A. So I am so very excited. Now, live auditions. Remember back when before the pandemic, when we would go into studios and audition for direct -- casting directors? Ugh. Lau: And that required us to actually see other human beings and talk to them and maybe even shake their hand? Anne: I know. And you know what? And you know what? One of the most important things about that is, is that we would not see the script until we walked into that studio. And there was always the possibility when we actually got into the room, they would change the script on us. Lau: Yes. Anne: So guess what, Lau? Lau: What, Anne? Anne: The client has changed the script. Lau: Ooh. Anne: So for our auditioners out there, and everybody in the audience, I'm sorry, but we had to throw the wrench into the, the loop of things. And we now have a different script that we will be sending to you to live audition with. So I know that Carol is out there waiting to send that new script out with new specs, and we will continue on with the auditions. And I have to say, I just love, I love the Internet and I love technology because it allows us to really do something really cool like this. Lau: Yeah. It's totally amazing. Completely amazing. And you know, just a moment on that real cold impromptu, last minute script, because I know so many voice actors are like, what do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? Meanwhile, you have to calm down and take a breath because so many of us are either on a pay-to-play site, or we're on hold with our agent, or we're working with casting on a project, and it's happening fast. It's coming and going really fast, and you guys are really getting used to turning things around fast. So the idea of a cold script should not put you out at all. It should be kind of like a fun challenge for you and really in your wheelhouse as a pro VO of something that really you need to be able to do. Anne: Yeah. And I can't tell you the countless number of times I've been on a live session where, you know, in the moment they're changing the script. And so you really have to be able to have those muscles to be able to quickly adapt and give the client what they're looking for. So I will say that this was a, a kind of a, a completely different script , but you know, remember we are here for educational purposes, and we hope all of you are going to really enjoy and reap the benefits of this exercise that we're going to be doing. I will go through the specs. Because this is for educational purposes, the specs for this script, uh, are open to all genders and ethnicities. And I will read the specs out loud here. Our FVO is a great actor, there we go, who can effortlessly imbue meaning and nuance into the story. They have lived a rich full life, having seen the world with all its wonders and is able to speak about their experiences with confidence and authority while their delivery has a poetic cadence . And by the way, you guys are all getting this. Um, this is done subtly and with a light touch. They never come across as dramatic, performative or as if they are laying on the gravitas. They are natural and have an air of lightness to the read that balances out their connection to the emotion perfectly. And as always, nothing smooth, nothing polished or announcery at all. . So we've got, that's a big paragraph of specs, Lau. What do you, what's your thought about specifications and when talent, you know, read the specs? Are they, you know, are they trying to match those specs exactly? Or what's important, uh, when it comes time to actually doing this audition? Lau: Great question. And I'll tell you, there's a lot of theories and philosophies about your descriptions, your breakdowns, and how to handle them. One of my favorites as a coach that I use all the time is to ask the talent to not read the specs up front. Now, this -- I'm not talking about today, because today's session is a live session, and so time is of the essence. But if you were at home and you had a day or two days to turn around an audition, it's a really interesting and telling exercise to not read the specs at all and give your takes and give a whole bunch of takes. And then go back and read the specs and see what did I bring from my point of view, from my interpretation and what kind of matches what the vision of the producer is? Am I in that realm? Am I not in that realm? Anne: Excellent points. Yeah. Let's have Michelle come on in. Hey, Michelle. Lau: Hey Michelle. Michelle: Hi. Can you guys hear me okay? Anne: We can, we can. Thank you for being the first one. I'm excited. Michelle: Oh my goodness. Okay. I just I'm excited to be here as well. Anne: Okay. So would you like a second, because you just got it? I mean, Lau and I can just discuss one other thing quickly about once you're in front of the mic and you're doing a live cold read, Lau, what is your best advice? Oh, for talent? Lau: Oh, wow. That's, that's a great question. First of all, have fun. Enjoy it. You're gonna get very few of those, right, Michelle? I mean, it's just like an exciting, energized, kind of dopamine experience. And for those of us who live on high octane junkies, we love that stuff. It's real time interaction, which I love. And so I would say make sure you're breathing. Make sure you're nice and warmed up, and you take breaks when you need to take breaks. Well, you'd be given a break after you read -- and make specific clear, active acting choices, Michelle, like, don't, don't, uh, generalize it. Don't just fly through it for the sake of time. Really make specific choices that you can change. And you should always have a good two to three really unique interpretations that you could do if they said, yeah, that's good, but can you change it out? You can change it out. Michelle: Got it. Thank you. Lau: Awesome. Anne: So when you're ready, feel free to slate and audition please. Michelle: Michelle Dillard. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you very much. Michelle: Thank you. Anne: Okay. Onto our next auditioner. Uh, on my list. I have Ryan, I hope it's Geiser. Lau: Hello. Anne: Hello, Ryan. Ryan: Oh, cool. I'm in. Lau: Hey Ryan. Ryan: Hi. Lau: Welcome. Ryan: Thank you. Uh, so I'm Ryan Geiser, non-union, MCVO. Um, our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. I was, uh, taking notes, just so you know that if I'm not responding right away, I'm taking notes. So thank you very much. Our next contestant , our next auditioner, I have, uh, Rosie, uh, Roberson? Lau: Yes. Anne: All right. Rosie. Rosie: Hello, everyone. Anne: Hello, Rosie. Nice to see you. Rosie: Well, I'm glad I got in . It's a little tricky there. Just let me know when to start. Anne: Okay. Well, we're ready. Rosie: Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with Expedia membership, you, you can save up at 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Awesome. Thank you very much. Okay. Our next, I have Manny Cabo. Manny: Hey ladies, how are you? Anne: Welcome. Manny: Welcome. Anne: Thanks for, thanks for joining us. Manny: Oh, thanks for having me. This was a last minute thing. I was, I just got off Covid for like two weeks, so believe me, this is a breath of fresh air. Anne: Oh, lovely. Well, I'm glad you're feeling better. Manny: Yeah, me too. Anne: All right, well, we are ready when you are. Manny: All right, let's do this. Here we go. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you so much, Manny. Awesome. Next on my list, I have, uh, Josh Wells. Josh. Josh: Hi. How's it going, Anne? Nice to meet you. Hi Lau. Anne: Hi. Nice to meet you too. Welcome. Thanks for joining us. Josh: Yeah. Super excited. Anne: We are ready when -- we are ready when you are. Josh: Heck yeah. Cool. All right. Josh Wells, non-union, Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Um, up next, we should have Kelly White. Kelly White. You are next for the live auditions on VO BOSS. Kelly: Hello. Anne: Hi, Kelly. Kelly: Hi there. Nice to meet you Anne. Hi, Lau. Anne: Yes. Wonderful to see you. Kelly: Thank you. Anne: All right, well, we are ready when you are. Kelly: Okay. Kelly White. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Fantastic. All right. Who do I have next? I have Alicia Hiller. Alicia: Hello. . Anne: Hello. Welcome. Alicia: Good -- good to meet you. Hi, Lau. Anne: Yes. Thanks for joining us today. All right, we're ready when you are. Alicia: Alicia Hiller. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Fantastic. Thank you so much. Ah, Aria. Fantastic. Real cold read. All right. So we are ready when you are. Aria: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever they are. And with a new Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a new hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places when we know a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. All right, cool. Thank you, guys.wor Anne: Thank you. All right. Um, and now Carole. Carole, we're ready when you are. Carole: All righty. Thank you. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got great deal -- knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Carol. Just remember a lot of times we have auditions with instructions, right? It's important to just go through those instructions too. And I know like you know, there's a lot of people who like, you know, and the forms we'll talk about, well, you know, should I get SourceConnect and then, you know, or should I wait until I get my first client? And this would be one of the reasons why , why you wanna make sure you test out all those tech things first. I am proud to be able to to give you this technical -- these technical issues to help you to learn because you know, it's all our mission, right, Lau -- our mission is to educate. Lau: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm like, you know, I'm not a negative Nelly at all. But I'm very much a realist and I say to folks, even if you've used your program, even if you've used your booth a million times, get in there early. Because anything that can go wrong probably will. And you wanna be able to have time to troubleshoot that and not miss out. So it is a good lesson. It is. Anne: Nicole. Nicole: Hi. Anne: Hi. Welcome. Nicole: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Anne: Yes, absolutely. Well, we are ready when you are. Nicole: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. There you go. Anne: Thank you so much. Nicole: Thank you. Anne: I remember being in the LA area, and of course, Lau, I mean, maybe if you ever had to run into the city to do a live audition, right, traffic, traffic. And so when the audition time was slotted right, you would I -- you would pray that there was no traffic jam that would be holding you up. And if you did hit a traffic jam and you got there late, sometimes you missed the audition. Sometimes you got there way early and that therefore you had the script. So I kind of like how we're really mimicking this. You would, you know, you'd be able to practice with the script a little bit longer if they had a, if you had a line in front of you. So, you know, I feel that there's all these -- this tech issues are kind of mimicking the traffic that we would hit when we would be, you know, in the car on the way to the studio. And thankfully now, we can, you know? Lau: The, the one, the one element of this that I think is really different and unique to the circumstance, that is sometimes we can't help tech glitches when they happen, and sometimes we can. And so just kind of knowing the difference. Like I'll give you an example. For instance, if someone knows that they have to be on a laptop and have to go through Chrome in order to do the audition, it's really on that person to go on a laptop and go through Chrome. That's something that could be avoided, but all of a sudden my transmission is bad because the hurricane, all of a sudden, you know, my lights go out. You know, that's something I can't help. So I think being able to determine what I sort of have control over and I sort of don't have control over -- and then the other thing too, and this is just me, you and I are exactly alike in this way, Anne, I will leave four hours early to get to an appointment, knowing that if I'm three hours early, I can do my work, I can have coffee, I can shop, I can do whatever. I don't wanna do the last minute thing ever. Like that really stresses me out. And so just for everyone coming in, like leave yourself plenty of time. Anne: Oh, fantastic. Stephanie. Stephanie: Hi. Anne: Welcome. Stephanie: Thank you. Shall I? Anne: Thanks for being here. Yes, we are ready when you are. Stephanie: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors even in more places, knowing we got a deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you so much. So Lau, I have my notes ready and you have your notes ready. Let's talk. Lau: I do. And I am wondering whether it's now or maybe later, if we could also go over some of our top kind of rules of the road in this kind of an audition. We talked a little bit about it throughout, but like, what are our top, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 things that we wanna see people be prepared to do or not do that happened today? Like, because here's the thing, from the talent's point of view, they see nothing. Like they know nothing and see nothing. You, I ,and Sean we're doing this whole massive thing -- and Carol -- this whole massive thing to make this session run. Anne: Right, behind the scenes. Lau: I would love to share a little bit of that so that again, we can go back to what is in my power to change and control and prepare for and what is really not. Anne: Fantastic. Lau: Are you okay with that? If we like just throw a few rules of the road in? Anne: Yeah, absolutely. So let's go ahead and start, Lau. Lau: Okay. I'm gonna start. So one of the things that is -- and again, I'm sharing this educationally, I don't want anyone to feel like we're chiding you or, or, or, you know, cussing you out or anything. It's not about that. This is about education. So that when you're on the real deal in the real scene, a lot of this will sort of dissipate, and you'll be able to work streamlined like a pro. So this entire time, and you'll see my head was down a lot when you see the video of this -- why? Not because I was falling asleep, because I was constantly texting, constantly emailing and helping people troubleshoot all along the way. Now I'm not the tech person to help you troubleshoot. I was expediting those emails and texts over to Anne, over to Sean, over to Carol where they needed to go. In the real world, you won't be able to do that. This is not the real world. This is our educational fun forum. But in the real world, there will be no one to text, no one to email, and no one to help you tech troubleshoot. So, simple things to avoid, I really want y'all to avoid is knowing the device you have to be on, knowing the, uh, uh, application or the program you need to be on, testing it through, preferably the day before rather than the day of. And also being in a solid space where you've got some audio integrity. You're not in the middle of a huge room or in a car or in a big living room to get the best quality that you can get. So those are all, in my mind, things you can somewhat control so that you can get to the next step, which is your talent, your work, your audition. Many of you couldn't get to it fully, 'cause I know most of you. You just couldn't get to it fully because you were so concerned about the tech, about all the tech stuff that was going on. Anne: And, and also, I do wanna say that those instructions were sent out a couple of days in advance, even though our, we changed the script on you. The instructions were sent out. And, and look, most people, if it's going to be a technical, you know, if it's going to be something technical like this where you're joining, uh, remotely via, you know, SourceConnect, ipDTL or some other form like Riverside, it is definitely advantageous to, uh, to test that technology out. You know, it's always wonderful to have a group of, you know, of, of colleagues that you can work with at any given time and say, hey, look, can you help me test? I mean, there's a lot of you know, forums and groups out there that say, hey, I need to do a SourceConnect test right now. Can you help me somebody test with me? So make sure that if this is something that you need to, to do, to do it in advance. And especially if, you know, a lot of times we're asked to record as well, and this could just be something maybe we're recording in, you know, through, uh, SourceConnect Now, or we're recording locally or whatever it is, Make sure that you hit that button and test it in advance. And so not having the technology throw your performance, which I'm sure it probably did for some of us a little bit, and I feel like, I feel like I might have heard that in some of your reads. Um, and as well as, you know, everything that you can possibly do to make that session go smooth. And also, you know, trying not to let that show when you get in the room to actually do the audition. Right? It's in and out and no excess. Nothing necessarily in terms of like, not too much small chat because -- Lau: Anne, you took it outta my head. You took it right outta my mouth. That was my next point, was like, there used to be an ad campaign many years ago for a deodorant, never let 'em see you sweat. That's where like, we're an actor. We're an actor, we're an actor. And what do actors do? They have to act. And that doesn't mean in the role all the time, that means as a business person, like you have to make your client feel like everything's okay. Anne: Oh yeah, absolutely. Lau: Don't worry about it. The sky isn't falling, even though it may not be okay. And you may not be able to audition and they may be disappointed. Don't let them feel like you are disappointed, you're upset, you're worried, you're scared, because that, that mirrors onto them. And then that, that becomes a, like a, you know, a, a slippery slope as they say. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: You know? Anne: Absolutely. Lau: But then being said, Anne, I do wanna congratulate everyone for the ones that -- actually most people were able to get in and show up and do -- almost all. And I just wanna give you a huge round of applause in kudos for doing that, despite your issues and your tech glitches and your confusion and your craziness. Look, you did it. You showed up. You went through it. That's the pro that we wanna build onto. Anne: Yeah. And I, and I wanna say thank you, really. I mean, this is, this was the first time that we've done this. And I think that it's, I like to believe that it's educationally valuable to, you know, the community. And I thank you for being a part of that, uh, from the bottom of my heart, really. Um, I'm really proud of all of you. Number one, it's a Saturday. So thank you for coming out and doing that and then dealing with tech frustrations. And so let's talk a little bit, Lau, about selections. Do you, do you -- Lau: Let's. Do you want to create our shortlists? Anne: I think we should create our shortlists. So first of all, I'm gonna say uh, you know, for, for a lot of the people, I feel that because it was a cold read, there were a lot of reads that sounded a little bit cold read. Um. And so if you had time, right, if you were not the first person, literally, or even if you were the first person, like the, I think my suggestion would be out of the mouth immediately once you get that script. Um, you know what I mean? Get that, get those words out of your mouth because that becomes muscle memory. That's gonna help you make it not sound like a cold read. It's gonna help you get the context of the script quickly. And remember, we are storytellers. We need to tell the story. Even though this was a short script, there was a definite story there. And I needed to feel, above the words coming out correctly, I needed to feel the warmth, the emotion, the point of view. Lau: Mm. I love all that. And as an actor, I mean, I think, you know, we have to choose very specific, very quick actor choices. We don't know if they're gonna work. We don't know how they're gonna land, but we have to be connected to something that's real. We have to know who am I speaking to and what am I connecting to. I like to use props. I mean, I'm a big prop -- like even if I'm, you know, if I'm doing a, a makeup ad, I might have my lipstick ready to go. You may never see it, right, 'cause I'm a voiceover. So you may never see it, but I feel it. I smell it. It's in my hand. There's something, you know, visceral about stuff that is real, that I can hold, I can use, I can feel. I like that. And engaging the body as well. So whether I'm sitting, I'm standing, whatever I'm doing is like, how does this translate within my body? Where's the energy coming from? You know, some of you came in with really warm, rich, textured sound, and that felt right to me. It felt like a way to go. It felt like a path. And as I watched you, I could sort of see where that vibration was coming from. I could sort of see where that was coming from today. So I think not disconnecting your head and your voice from the rest of your body and your spirit is super important. Anne: Now I'm also gonna point out that, you know, part of the specs and, and I think part of what I think innately most people are looking for in this style of, of script is something, you know, uh, not, uh, nothing smooth, polished, or announcery at all. Okay? So that's hard when you're doing a cold read. So the sooner I said, the sooner you can get that script outta your mouth -- and by the way, if you weren't one of the first few that came on board, you know, maybe that's something you were doing in the background right? Until we called you, because we definitely had enough time now through this whole process where people towards the end had a good, ample amount of time to kind of get a feel for that script, you know, and, and really, and do and, and just really feel the copy, understand the copy, know what story you're telling. Natural, and again, I'm looking at some of the specs that we were looking for, you know, natural, not performative, not laying on the gravitas, um, an air of lightness to the reed, which I liked. Um, there was some really nice light reads in there that I liked. Um, what else can I say about, you know -- and I think following the specs is one thing, but then adding something different, right? In addition to making it that non-announcery, telling the story, there, there, I think trying to incorporate something that's a little bit different, a little bit unique, uh, something that you think no other talent is going to give, right? That might surprise us. So I had a couple of, you know, as I was typing madly my notes, a couple of melodies that I heard in there that were really nice, There was like a, a, a lilt on one of the words or maybe a little point of view that was different than I was anticipating, which made me stand up and take notice. And guess what I did, Lau? I actually starred those, uh, those reads. And those are the people that I am, I have on my list to call back. So. Lau: They got Anne's gold star. That means something. Anne: They got my stars. Lau: That means something, right? I love that. That's great. I love that. Oh, there's a point I was just gonna make and I forgot what I was gonna say, but, but I'm hearing you on what you're saying, Anne, because I think that the, that that disappointment, if you will that word disappointment of, I'm ready, I'm prepared, I'm doing this -- wait a second, I'm not doing that. I'm doing something else. Whatever that is, that disappointment, that surprise, that let down that, that confusion, like, it's really important to feel that and be in that space. Certainly as casting as you are, as agent as I am, we're constantly dealing with that. Just when I think it's one thing and I know it, it turns into something else and I don't know it. And typically it's because of priority. So if someone switches a script or someone switches an audition, it's typically, typically because another audition came in that's much more time sensitive. So we have to, I might love say Manny or Kelly or Stephanie, but I also kind of love them for this new one that came in. So I want them to put that on hold just for a second and take this script and do it. So being able to improvise, impromptu, shift fast, interpret fast, I think is really important. Anne: Yeah. And, and before we actually I think reveal, because you and I, I mean, I have my list and you have your list, so we need to agree upon five people that we're gonna be calling back. Uh, I, I really just wanna say that, that it's something, that's something different, right? Uh, the more that you can practice reading your scripts, I mean, I can't say enough how, how important it is to just find different scripts, read, practice all the time, audition -- it, it just helps you to be stronger. And get feedback from, you know, from coaches and, and people that you trust that have been in the industry, that can really help you to, to, you know, uh, perform better and make those bold moves, and workout groups I think are so important. Um, like I have my VO Peeps group and every month, you know, we are working out, and, and, and I know that Lau, you have the same thing. Uh, those are so important to help you get that practice under your belt so that you can -- you need to experience all the different styles, all the different reads in order to make mistakes and grow from them. Lau: Absolutely. Anne: Think it's all about growth, all about growth as an actor. And, and if you're not doing something every day that is voiceover, that is, uh, you know, looking at different scripts, scenarios, practicing, working, uh, I, I think you're, you're missing the boat on growing as an actor. Lau: Right, right. And I think it's also the how we deal with stress. How do we balance, how do we manage time? How do we manage our crazy lives when this stuff comes in? Because you -- you know, I always say be careful what you wish for. You might get it . And when it comes in, it always comes in at the most in inopportune times. It always comes in at the time when you're the busiest, and you're working, and you have events, and you have kids. It always does 100% of the time. So you kind of always have to set your life up that I can go in the space, I can do this quickly, I can make it happen even though I've got a whole bunch of layers going on around me. They don't need to know about it. As we always say, uh, leave your trash at the door. You can come get it on your way out. Don't bring it into the studio. Um, and, and being able to really practice that, really practice that skill along with your actual delivery skill. 'Cause it's a whole other skill, that's an executive functioning skill. That's like, how do I manage 25 things at once and how do I make those 25 things all feel important and all feel like I'm not getting crazy? Like, that's, that's a functioning skill that we have to practice and we have to really work on every day along with the actual acting skills. Anne: Yeah. Right. Lau: That is, we work -- Anne: On, Oh, I'm sorry. I, I was just, I was thinking, I was thinking, uh, while you were talking. Now as we reveal -- Lau, I'm gonna have you read, you know, maybe a list or a couple of people that you, that you kind of have selected and we'll see if we agree. Lau: Yeah. Actually, can I ask you, Anne, just to crosscheck, how many out of our list do we have that actually auditioned? Or maybe I should say how many did not audition? 'Cause it seemed like most auditioned. Anne: Three, uh, three did not. Um. Lau: Okay, great. Yeah. So we had 12 -- Anne: Well, actually, actually two out of the list did not, and then you added, uh, Brit, so. Lau: Okay. So we actually had 12 or 13? Anne: Yep. We actually had 12. Lau: Fantastic turnout. Anne: Out of the original list we had 13. Yeah. Lau: Don't you think that's -- Anne: That's fantastic. Lau: That's a fantastic turnout because we always have, in any audition, a percentage of people who do not audition. There are no shows where they just don't audition for many reasons. So that's actually very high, that level of -- Anne: And they didn't even know their script. Well, they -- Lau: And they didn't know anything and they still showed up. Anne: Yeah. That's good. So. Lau: But see, I think that's a testament. I wanna, I wanna make mention, I think it's a testament to Anne, to myself, and to the nature of this whole group, this whole community of how much we trust each other, we care for each other. And you're just getting to know Anne, many of you, and, and she's part of our community now. And like, like-minded people hold each other up, motivate each other, inspire each other, and through the difficult moments, get each other through it. And that's exactly what happened today. Exactly. And so I just wanna call attention to that from a, a, a social and, and professional friend network, but also a community, sort of inspirational, motivational, holding each other through this. You guys did that, even though you may not have talked to each other. You may not have met with each other. You did that in the space, you did that in the online space. And that's -- Anne: And in the chat. Lau: -- so important to do. Absolutely. The chat. That was great. Okay. So how many, Anne, you think are we gonna shortlist here? Would you say six? Anne: I've, I've got five marked. Lau: Okay. Anne: I've got five marked. Lau: Okay. Anne: Um, so that I'd like to hear, and I, and I just wanna say one other word. Not only was it how I wanted to hear that script in terms of the specs, because consider I am the client or I'm, I'm with the client or I'm representing the client, how I wanted it to be that non-announcery warm feeling with all the, with all the feels, uh, in that description. It's also water. I feel like the voice also, if it hadthe sound that I was looking for. And so there are some that I feel out of the five, I feel some did one better than you know, the other. Um, but they all had something that made me put them on the short list. Lau: So, Okay. So, uh, uh, first of all, everyone had something that I could potentially work with. I would just wanna say that I'm not just saying that to butter people up. I'm saying everyone has a unique quality that I could really direct and work with, but based on what we were looking for and what our vision is, here's some of my top peeps. Okay? I'm just looking my list. Okay. So Manny is one of my tops. Okay? Anne: Agreed. Lau: And I have Kelly, who's one of my tops. Anne: Okay. Lau: And I have Nicole. Anne: Yes. Lau: And I have Aria, and I have, uh, Josh. I wasn't sure how many we're looking for. So -- Anne: Five. Lau: So that's, that's five. I have more. But we'll stop at that. We, we'll stop at that. Anne: Okay. So I have -- I agreed with you on Nicole, Manny, uh, Josh, and then I also had, uh, marked Alicia and uh, Carole. Lau: Good. Three outta five ain't bad. . Anne: Yeah. So, uh, we definitely have the three. Now let's just discuss. Let's just discuss because I think, uh, for me, Nicole had a nice hush that says some of the, the notes that I wrote about Nicole that I really liked. And, and Nicole was also second, so she didn't have a ton of time to prepare. Um, and she came through even with that. Now -- Lau: And you know what I loved about Nicole is when she delivers, there is something that is transfor -- transports me when she speaks that I'm in a different world. I'm in a different mode, I'm in a different world. There's something a little bit magical about her sound that I caught right away. And about her essence, because we were meeting her and seeing her on camera, there's very calm, sort of meditative, logical head on the ground feel to her. And I, that all kind of went together as this really lovely package of someone who I felt really safe with, I felt really good with. Anne: Awesome. Uh, uh, Manny, like from the first few words, I kind of had him marked already. He started off, he started off with a real warm, nice, friendly, uh, not announcery style. And that's what I really, you know, I immediately wrote, you know, stars there. Lau: Yeah, he's super pro. He has a pro sound. There is a polish there without sounding overly announcery. Um, there's a clarity there, and there's also this kind of like sexiness to it that I didn't expect, uh, because I wasn't looking for that. So there was this, uh, appeal to it that, that I really liked. It was almost essential appeal without asking for that, which I liked. Um. Anne: Uh, fantastic. Lau: And he seemed very sure of himself. 'Cause I had not met Manny at all. Anne: Very confident. Lau: He was brought over by a dear friend. And we literally met today when he came in, and I just, I just loved his presence. I just loved his confidence, and I just loved his kind of chill, laidback, but professional guy persona. He had a persona that was very strong that I heard his sound. Anne: Yeah, I agree. I completely agree. Um, Josh, now I have Josh. Um, there was a word of course I was typing so furiously that I couldn't type the word correctly, but he had a word in there that caught my attention, and it was the timbre and the lilt of the word. So as I was mentioning before, sometimes it's just something a little bit different that captures your attention. Um, and so that's one of the reasons why I marked him. Uh, and then, so there's where our three agree upon, and so now we just have to talk a little bit about our ex, our next two. Lau: And I wanted to make mention about Josh too Because Josh, and I don't know, I don't know if this is age related or, or what, but there's, he's right in the middle. There's an interesting gray zone that he's in between that cool -- Anne: Yes, I agree. Lau: -- surfer dude, laidback guy. And someone who's a little bit more professional and on it, someone who's a little bit more with it, the guy in the know. So he has that standup comedy, funny, fun appeal to him, but he has the serious enough that he can land it and have some ethos there. Anne: Agreed. Agreed. Lau: That's why I love Josh. Okay. Um, okay. The two outside of that, yours was Carol and Alicia. Anne: Carol and Alicia. Yes. Lau: You know, close second, this is what people spend fighting behind closed doors about for like hours or days is like you're kind of fighting over people who are all talented. Anne: And that's it. I think, you know, and, and here's the deal, here's where it comes in. So Lau and I are gonna discuss who those other two are gonna be. And, uh, this is probably what happens in most casting , right, offices or whoever's fighting you for the client. And we'll just go back and forth, uh, on the reasons why, you know, we either want this for the callback, right? And, and even what during the callback we'll be figuring out, well, you know, what is the reasoning for any one particular voice? And sometimes you just don't know what that is, and it's not always based on performance sometimes. Lau: No. It's just sometimes it's just like an instinct, a feeling, an impulse. And, and in my mind I'm thinking some of these people are like, oh, okay, so if this person can't do it, they're booked, or they get sick or whatever, then this person could easily go in. Totally. So it isn't the case where I really love this person and I really don't love this -- It's not always that case. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: There's a lot of like, gray zones of people that kind of fall in the same grouping, but that just don't make it to the booking, you know? Um, so Carol's voice is fantastic. I mean, it's very, to me, very corporate sounding. It has very businessy, corporatey, flight attendant-ish, finding the exit kind of sound. I like it. I love it. It's, I felt it was a little bit too objectified, a little bit too removed for the level of warmth that I was, was looking for this 'cause it is travel. When I think about travel now, and I think about number one, trying to reach the younger people, the younger generation, I think about a slightly, you know, not younger -- younger is a mythical word. It's just like a slightly more, more energized or more youthful kind of thing. Anne: Sure. I get that. I get that. Lau: And then also a, a, a little bit of like boxy or squareness in terms of it. Anne: But now when I, of course, Carole, as you said, more corporate and of course, you know, I'm very attuned to the corporate ear because I do a lot of that myself. Now, I'm also gonna say for Carole and thinking of travel, I was thinking, oh, she would make me feel comfortable on a plane, like if she were the flight attendant and so Expedia. So that was one of the reasons I thought it fit. But I'm going actually, and I'll cede you Aria because I love Aria. Lau: You'll raise me Aria. Anne: I'll raise you Aria because even though I didn't check her, I do love that voice. She's got that youthful, that youthful style if that's the market we're looking for. Um, she, you know, we did give her a different script immediately. Like she literally had no time to even voice it and have it come out of her mouth. So I have to take that with, you know, a little bit, uh, you know, a grain of salt because she really didn't even get it out of her mouth, except that was the first time. So for me, I had written that it was a little fast, but I understand why, because it was the first time coming out of her mouth. Now if I'm going on my gut and saying, you know, could you convince me, Aria, um, yeah, you could because of, because I like the timbre, the tone of her voice, the demographic is there for the script. And, uh, so yeah, that's my, that's my thoughts. Lau: And, and you know, I just wanna point out that, you know, if we don't forget about who are really, who's our target demographic for this, and is like both of these women could absolutely deliver this script. But when we get back to, you know, who the client really wants us to be looking at, it's really that, you know, 18 to 35 demographic. Because let's be honest, that's most of the people that are on like Travelocity, Kayak, Expedia, and going up-up-up -- not to say the 40 and up are not doing it, but for this particular one, one of the goals is to kind of find someone who has a bit more energized or youthful presence. Anne: All right. You've convinced me. Lau: So anyway, so that's one issue there too as well. Okay. Anne: Yep. You've convinced me. Lau: Okay, so Alicia kind of fits that. Anne: Okay. Lau: Alicia kind of fits that. Anne: Oh yes. Lau: Um, and I love her quality. She's got a rocky, dirty sort of like textured young sound. So I do like it. I, I felt like it was a little slow, like it wasn't as energized. Anne: Yes, I agree with you there. Um, and I wasn't, I wasn't thinking slow in terms of the read, but more contemplative and thoughtful. And she was another one who had a really nice different sound on the word -- she interpreted the word color toward the end of the script a little bit differently than most other people too, so we can find our colors. And I feel like that the, the operative word obviously in, in any story that we're telling, right, there's some operative words in there that really need to kind of hit the, the listener. Color is one of those words. And she really had a different, a slightly different pitch on the word color, which is why I I marked her. So. Lau: Right. Now, here's the thing that you and I both skipped over. And you guys listening in, this happens all the time. Um, you guys both, ironically we both skipped over the fact that the client does want diversity for these roles. And I don't know how I could skip that over, but I got excited with the switch out of script, but -- Anne: Well, we did change, we did change it for this purpose to all genders and ethnicities. But you're right. I mean, diversity is something that has to be a consideration and -- Lau: Right, authentically, right, diverse. So whereas like someone like Kelly, who I know very well and is a total pro, and can do this in her sleep fits that bill in so many ways and the voice is so layered and rich and textured -- Anne: Oh, I agree with that. Lau: -- and seasoned -- Anne: I agree with that. Lau: You know, it's, we're gonna have to go back and forth on, you know, the age thing and the youthful-ness thing because she's much more of a mature sound in my mind. Anne: My only, my only comments, I mean I did, I did like Kelly, I, my only comments was that she was a little too fast on the read I thought on that. And so, but you know what I'm -- Lau: But we can direct her. Anne: I could -- okay. Lau: Where she's directable. Anne: I feel that she -- all right then, then. Alright, so then I think we have our five then. Lau: And you know how I know she's directable, for those listening in? Because we know her personally. We have a relationship with her. Anne: Okay. Now -- Lau: Normally I couldn't say that if I don't know her. Anne: That's what I'm gonna say. So, and only, and only in this instant, right, if, if you know a casting director, here's an advantage, right? Um, if a casting director has heard you before or hired you before or has worked with you before, you know, it's, it behooves you to have, you know, a, a, an excellent relationship. Or when you work with them, make it as smooth as possible. Make it easy for the casting director. Make it easy for them to work with you, and they'll remember and have you coming back. So. Lau: And quite oftentimes, the casting, we see this all the time at the agency, we'll come back to the agents and go, love it. Great. Good. Need some retakes. It's too slow, I need it, da da da da. Right? And then we can go back to those people and we know that they can do it. They're capable of it. They're willing to. Anne: Yep. All right, So then we have our list, our callbacks. We're gonna call these five people back. Nicole Fikes, Aria Lapides, Manny Cabo, Josh Wells, and Kelly White. Congratulations. I would like to give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys were amazing. I can't wait for the next episode. Lau, love you. Thank you so much, guys, and we'll see you soon. Lau: Great job. Anne: Bye-bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

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Heartland POD on Twitter - @TheHeartlandPOD Co-HostsAdam Sommer @Adam_Sommer85Rachel Parker @RaichetPSean Diller @SeanDillerCO Adam's OpenTrue or False: The GOP has caught the Tiger by the tail and the Tiger is pissedAbortion - Parson clip https://twitter.com/MarkMaxwellTV/status/1547631874033401856?s=20&t=ZfzrmrQ1Lwo1WbJNZ39bvASienna poll - abortion should be legal and SCOTUS is brokenhttps://scri.siena.edu/Gerontocracy: Young voters are tired of Grandpa's rules https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/14/us/politics/youth-voters-midterms-polling.htmlYeah…No… Tim Ryan is trying to beat JD Vance at being JD Vance? https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2022-election/democrat-tim-ryan-chases-fox-news-viewers-ohio-senate-race-rcna37558Have to appeal to wider audience to win, but what's the cost? 538 https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-election-forecast/senate/ohio/2022 Midterms Decision Desk Check In - HOUSE editionhttps://twitter.com/polltrackerusa/status/1548022265203134465?s=21&t=vjeWVCgckKIfaNFg6cyVIgLooks like generic ballot is close Missouri - The 2nd is competitive - great folks running in the 6th, 7th, & 8th - 4th has been left on the vine this yearTrish's farewell speech of the MO House Floor was genuinely touching. https://twitter.com/TrishForMO/status/1548017035623288840 The reason we have term limits is because dark money groups do not want women like her building political careers in Missouri (she's not termed out, but…) Toss up races via cook politicalhttps://www.cookpolitical.com/ratings/house-race-ratings?check_logged_in=1538 House Forecast https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-election-forecast/house/?cid=rrpromo https://heartlandpod.com/Twitter: @TheHeartlandPOD"Change The Conversation"

Heartland POD on Twitter - @TheHeartlandPOD Co-HostsAdam Sommer @Adam_Sommer85Rachel Parker @RaichetPSean Diller @SeanDillerCO Adam's OpenTrue or False: The GOP has caught the Tiger by the tail and the Tiger is pissedAbortion - Parson clip https://twitter.com/MarkMaxwellTV/status/1547631874033401856?s=20&t=ZfzrmrQ1Lwo1WbJNZ39bvASienna poll - abortion should be legal and SCOTUS is brokenhttps://scri.siena.edu/Gerontocracy: Young voters are tired of Grandpa's rules https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/14/us/politics/youth-voters-midterms-polling.htmlYeah…No… Tim Ryan is trying to beat JD Vance at being JD Vance? https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2022-election/democrat-tim-ryan-chases-fox-news-viewers-ohio-senate-race-rcna37558Have to appeal to wider audience to win, but what's the cost? 538 https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-election-forecast/senate/ohio/2022 Midterms Decision Desk Check In - HOUSE editionhttps://twitter.com/polltrackerusa/status/1548022265203134465?s=21&t=vjeWVCgckKIfaNFg6cyVIgLooks like generic ballot is close Missouri - The 2nd is competitive - great folks running in the 6th, 7th, & 8th - 4th has been left on the vine this yearTrish's farewell speech of the MO House Floor was genuinely touching. https://twitter.com/TrishForMO/status/1548017035623288840 The reason we have term limits is because dark money groups do not want women like her building political careers in Missouri (she's not termed out, but…) Toss up races via cook politicalhttps://www.cookpolitical.com/ratings/house-race-ratings?check_logged_in=1538 House Forecast https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-election-forecast/house/?cid=rrpromo https://heartlandpod.com/Twitter: @TheHeartlandPOD"Change The Conversation"

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Worried about Ai? Your emotions are your job security, and working with technology will be key to future success in voice over. In this bonus Voice & Ai episode, Anne chats with Ryan Hicks and Adam Fritz of Pozotron - an audiobook proofing service. Listen as they dive deep into the future of audiobook production, and discuss how the connections between human emotion & AI is a voice actor's greatest ally… More at https://voboss.com/voice-and-ai-pozotron-with-ryan-hicks-and-adam-fritz  Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Welcome, everyone, to the VO BOSS podcast, the AI and Voice series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I'm excited and honored to bring you very special guests Adam Fritz and Ryan Hicks of Pozotron, a powerful AI software that helps audiobook professionals make their audio productions more accurate, efficient, and profitable. Adam is the COO of Pozotron and leads the operations and business development arms of the company. And Ryan has a 10-year history in the audiobook industry, having spent eight of those years as a proofer and editor with Deyan before coming over to Pozotron. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a pleasure. Both: Thanks for having us. Anne: So if you don't mind, I'd like to start off with serving the need for having a wonderful piece of software like Pozotron. So I'd like to ask, Ryan, since your background as an editor and proofer at Deyan probably gave you lots of reasons to want to have things that would make your job easier. So tell us a little bit about what you did on a day-to-day basis and what type of tools you use to do your job, and then what your pain points were. Ryan: Oh man. So proofing and editing at Deyan. So we, wow. How do I even turn that into something small? Anne: Well, so there were a lot of were a lot of pain points. I would imagine -- Ryan: I mean the whole thing, the whole thing is a pain point. So we would get professionally recorded material and try to make it more professional quickly, in the door, out the door. So we had a series of steps that we would go through to kind of standardize the process of editing and proofing at the absolute highest level. And we had some fantastically intricate manuals about spacing and noise floors and RMS and mastering techniques and what you had to use for all of these things. And then add that to the fact that we're just listening for everything that possibly could be going wrong. Misreads, noises, thunks in the background, wrong character voices, anything that you would have to give a note back to the narrator, that was my job for eight years was finding all of those notes and giving them back. Anne: Wow, so let's just say then for an average size audiobook, how long would it take back and forth between you and the author before you were able to resolve all of these issues? Ryan: So we were super compartmentalized at Deyan. I never talked to an author. I never talked to a rights holder. There was a production manager and a head of post that would take those projects and give them to us. And we gave those projects back to the head of post. Anne: Got it. So how long would you say, do you have an idea of how long it might take? Is there so many days of revisions back and forth or was it weeks before you would finally get the edited version that you needed? And that was correct? Ryan: So it happened a couple of different ways. If narrators were coming in house to the studios at Deyan, they would record during a six-hour session. And at the end of that session, they would send three hours of audio to the editors. And we basically had that day to try and get it done. Anne: Wow. Ryan: So three sessions from a narrator would be about a whole book. And so during that period, we would be editing, and then someone would be proofing after us. And then hopefully within a week, that would be back to that narrator to do the pickups and then finish it up. So we would have anywhere between a 14 and 21-day turnaround. Anne: Got it. Ryan: And we just kept trying to tighten that down further and further and further and make it as efficient as possible. Anne: And I think that there, this is my own experience. I am not an audiobook narrator, however I narrate corporate and long form narration. And so for me, my editing, I can only get it so efficient. There is an amount of time in terms of listening to it to make sure there's no errors as well as the time it then takes to edit those and then go back into the studio and rerecord and then come back and check it again. And so there's a certain amount of time, and I wish I could get it faster, but I just can't. And so I know it must be completely frustrating in terms of having, you know, hours of book material to be able to prove and edit. And I'm just talking, like, maybe my maximum would be, you know, an hour module at a time, and I would do maybe eight or ten modules, but still the process to me, I never got it to a point where I was as quick as I wanted it or needed it to be. And so fast forward to the future, how did you find Pozotron or how did they find you? Ryan: Jamie, my boss, and correct me if you know this part of the story, Adam, it was Jamie that found Jake, right, at a conference? Adam: I believe so, yes. Anne: And Jamie is Deb's right-hand man. And Jamie came to me and said, "oh my gosh, you have to look at this. You have to see what this company is doing." And when he showed me, I'm like, this is ridiculous. We don't need this. I've been doing this for seven years. I don't need some computer program checking my work. I'm fine at what I do. And we set it through dozens of tests. And this is early in Pozotron when they were still kind of working the kinks out. And I never beat Pozotron. I would check my work as soon as I did my foolproof, and I would run it through the software, and there was always things that I missed. Anne: Wow. Ryan: And so I finally, you know, as much as I shook my fist at it, suddenly I had a backup, right? I had a backup, and as soon as I was done, all we had to do was upload the files. And 20 minutes later, I would get a chance to scan through. And there it is, there's those three things that I missed. Anne: Wow. Ryan: There's those five things that I missed. And so we would add that onto my proofing report, and suddenly pickups that were coming back from the publisher, not just from me, but through all of our proofers were coming back in the single digits. And it was, it was awesome. That transition was great. Anne: That's incredible. So you were kind of a, you're a believer now. Ryan: Yeah. Having that safety net when you're -- Anne: Yeah. Ryan: -- when you're tired -- Anne: Absolutely. Ryan: -- when you've been working for eight hours already having that backup was fantastic. Anne: Awesome. Okay. So Adam, let's talk a little bit about Pozotron and how did the company come about? Adam: Like any good software company, you know, the, the core software is designed to solve a pain point. Anne: Yeah. Adam: So it's actually almost reversed. A lot of software companies see, okay, here's problem X, how do we create a solution to solve that problem? But in this case, it was almost backwards. Jake Poznanski, our CEO and founder, really wanted to get into AI. He'd exited a gaming, a mobile gaming company and was looking at AI and machine learning, and really liked some research going on about forced alignment. That's basically matching text and audio files together, and basically came up with the idea of the technology and then went about trying to apply that technology to a problem to solve. So he almost went around it backwards, um, came across the whole concept of audio -- he was a big listener of audiobooks and just how -- manual isn't the right word, but how time-consuming it was to prove an audiobook. Anne: Yeah. Adam: I mean, when I describe it to people who are not at all involved in the industry, you basically sit down with a PDF and headphones -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- and have to listen and read at the same time, which is tremendously difficult. So basically he designed it as not a way to replace a proofer, but designed this really fantastic and unique tool as a way to add that kind of extra set of eyes. So really the whole goal of Pozotron on the proofing side, that is our core technology, is to get the ratio of time spent proofing to the actual time of the audio or as close to one-to-one as possible. Anne: Yeah, right. Adam: So it should take an hour of time to proof and report on the pickups for an hour of audio. Anne: Makes sense. Adam: Without Pozotron, I think that's certainly a much higher, probably a two to one or three to one at least ratio. The goal with Pozotron is still -- Anne: Oh, absolutely. Adam: It's going to take you an hour to listen to an hour of audio, but instead of doing that, and then spending 20 minutes or half an hour putting together a pickup packet by copying things -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- out into an Excel spreadsheet -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- you click two buttons, and that pickup packets ready to go, and you just email that to your narrator, and they start recording right away. So that's really the goal is to get that ratio as close to one-to-one as possible. Anne: Yeah. And I'll tell you, that's very interesting because, for as many years as I've been in the industry doing long form narration editing, I have never been able to get quicker than one to three, and I am a stickler. You know what I'm like, no, I can do it. I can, I can get better than that. And I just can't, and it's, it's frustrating. And it's time-consuming, and it's also, it's very tedious. It's one of the, I would much rather be in the booth doing the creative, doing, you know, what I like to think I do best, you know, the artistry of it all to be in the booth and do that. And many people will outsource their work to an editor, but I always like to have the first check for myself. And it's not that I wouldn't outsource it, but that still, even if I outsourced it to an editor, it would take the editor just as much time as me or probably a little less, if that's all they do. But there was always that time element. And I could never get things back as quick as I really needed them or my client wanted them to be. And also if I had like a quick pickup to do, and I had an editor and I had outsourced it to an editor, they usually put their own filters on it that they don't necessarily tell me, or they might be using a different software. And so therefore, if I needed a really quick pickup, it was one of the things where if I outsource to an editor, it became a little awkward if I couldn't get that editor like right away, you know? And a lot of times the client would be like, well, look, it's just one sentence. Why is it taking you two days to get me that sentence back? And it just might be because I'm trying to tie in the editor's time as well. So that just added to it all. So I can absolutely see the pain point of needing something, or it would be wonderful to have something that could get it down to a one-to-one ratio. So tell me a little bit about how your software does that or how it works, kind of on a step-back scale. Adam: Yeah. So basically the end goal is if you've never seen how Pozotron works, you press play, you upload your manuscript, you upload your audio, our forced alignment algorithm basically pairs the two and gives you essentially what -- to simplify it, it's kind of like a spellcheck for recorded audio. It gives you an output of what we call annotations, which are things Pozotron thinks are a missed word. So a word that you, in the manuscript, you didn't say it during the narration, an added word, which happens a lot. I have two young kids and I read them a lot of stories. And it's amazing how often I just add words for no reason -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- mispronounced words, as well as extra long pauses. So really the goal is what it does is it gives you an output saying, hey, you just put an hour of audio in. Here's the 32 things that Pozotron thinks are incorrect. What you need to do then is as you're going through, we recommend that people continue doing their full listen. So listen to every second recorded. Um, but what it does is allows people to decide, hey, Pozotron thinks that I mispronounced the word microphone because I'm looking at the word microphone on my computer right now. And you need to listen to that and say, yes, that's a mispronunciation or no, it's not. If you click pick up, it automatically goes onto your pickup report and eliminates all that manual time of creating those reports. But at its core, we have a forced alignment algorithm based on tens of thousands of hours of audio data that basically take the spoken word, compare that to the text word. And then using a probability matrix, says, we believe that this was correctly pronounced or incorrectly pronounced, as close to a 100% accuracy as you could ever get. Anne: Got it. How does it handle like words like names and how does it, how does it handle accents and different languages too? Adam: So I'll answer the last part first 'cause that's the easiest. Anne: Okay. Adam: Uh, we currently support English, Spanish, Swedish, and then French and German are in beta right now. Anne: Okay, okay. Great. Adam: So we do support them, but they're just not at the level of accuracy of the English or Spanish, primarily just because we don't have that volume of data -- Anne: Okay. Adam: -- to continue training our algorithm on. In terms of names, really, as long as it is a phonetically pronounced name, Pozotron will be able to handle it. In the name of like, what's a good example of -- a word that is spelled one way and pronounced something completely separate. Um, Pozotron will occasionally have trouble with that because what -- the way Pozotron works is, if it is phonetically correct, it will mark it as correct. But if it is, um -- Ryan, do you have a good example of a word, of a word like that? I can't think of one off the top of my head right now. Ryan: I mean, we keep using lagxoor as our sci-fi name. Anne: Lagxoor. Adam: So that would be spelled L-A-G-X-O-O-R, but pronounced L-A-G-Z-O-O-R. Pozotron will mark lag sewer as an incorrect pronunciation of L-A-G-X-O-O-R because phonetically it's incorrect. So that's why Pozotron a lot of the tools we have, our pronunciation analysis tool, our character voice guide is great to help narrators, authors, production managers, anyone involved do their preparation before the project even starts. So our proofing tool's designed to catch pickups after they happen. Our prep tools are designed to stop pickups from before you've even started recording. Anne: Can you train it for a specific name somehow or phonetically spell it so that it can then, I guess, mimic or figure out if that's correct or not? Adam: So there's a couple of things. One, yes, every time we retrain our algorithm, it gets more and more accurate. But what you can do is we have a -- let's say that Lagxoor, for example, say it's a main character, and Pozotron for the 200 times it's mentioned in the book -- Anne: Right. Adam: -- Pozotron thinks, "we think this is incorrect." Anne: Right. Adam: We have a filter out button that basically is like the ignore all in Microsoft word when you're doing spell check. "This is not a mistake. Pozotron, I know you think this is a mistake because it's phonetically wrong." You click filter out, and it will ignore every other mention of that word. Anne: Got it. Interesting now, okay. Here's a question just because I do a lot of work in medical, and a lot of times in medical, like, I don't know the word enough, so that each time it occurs in the instance of my script, that I can pronounce it exactly the same, unless I go, and I mark up my script, and I phonetically spell it each and every time, I might forget like that 10th time to emphasize the middle syllable, rather than the other syllable. Will it catch those? Or is that something that we have to just, you know, we're on the lookout for that? Adam: So again, two answers there. So the first one is we have a tool called scan occurrences, which we should probably rename it, something a little, a little better than that, but scan occurrence is what it allows to do. So let's say for example, "doliosolaphic," um, which I, I mispronounced, I butchered that, but I named that because it came up in a demo I did the other day. You can choose that one word and click scan, and it will play every single mention of that word in the audio, back to back to back to back to back. Anne: Nice! Adam: You can listen to that straight through for consistency. It's great for character names as well. Anne: Oh, that's fantastic! That'd make my life easy, a live. Adam: I have an example of a customer the other day, who was doing a book, and the word shaman, S-H-A-M-A-N, which could be pronounced "Shaw man" or "shay man". Anne: Right. Adam: He pronounced shaman nine times as "Shaw man" and one time -- Anne: Right. Adam: -- for "shay man." So he used that feature to catch that, and then you can select individual ones and either mark those individual examples of that, mark those as a pickup in your audio, or you can just export a DAW file to put a marker -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- in every mention of that word in your, in your DAW file or your DAW session to help your editor. Anne: Got it. So then at the core of all of this is AI, right? Adam: Yes. Correct. Anne: That is, it's learning. So when we upload our manuscripts and we upload our audio, is that going into help the model become more intelligent, or do you have a model that exists already and you're feeding it other data? Adam: We started by bootstrapping with publicly available data, whether it's Librivox or any of those other things. Anne: Sure. Adam: But when someone uploads audio, it's very spelled out in our terms of service, and we're going to be redoing our website right around Halloween. We'll be launching a new, just explaining exactly what we're using data for. But essentially what we do is we take random snippets of audio, audio and text paired together. And we feed those into our algorithm to train it. And this is not training it to replicate the human voice. This is training it to better recognize the human voice and the exact thing that is spoken based on the text. Anne: Got it. Adam: So it's basically just, it's almost like every bit of audio is like another drop in the swimming pool. None of it is -- you can't identify a single drop of water in a swimming pool. It all gets aggregated. Yeah. That's what we do. We basically make it so it's completely non-identifiable from an individual voice or anything like that perspective or personal identified information. But what it does is it just continues as we feed more and more data in and retrain, it just makes it more and more effective because we have more examples, more different accents, more different dialects to improve the accuracy of our algorithm. Anne: Got it. So now, do you have any plans to ever like create voices at all in your software in order to like maybe help with pickups? Or is that something that you're not really looking at? Adam: So I'm going to start with what exactly what it says in our terms of service, which is we can never do that -- Anne: Okay. Adam: -- without the express written consent of the person who uploaded the audio. Anne: Got it. Adam: So currently it is not in our plans, even from, from a business perspective. Even if we wanted to, there are companies out there that have a four or five-year headstart on us. Anne: Sure. Adam: So it would be kind of a dumb, it would be a dumb business decision. Um, I could see a future where maybe there would be a feature where you could say, say, you said, Anne instead of V, you could have a, you know, basically copy and -- Anne: Paste. Adam: -- copy and paste that word. But from a, from an AI perspective, we have, we'd have to be pretty careful on how we manage that and negotiate that with our customers -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- because we would never do it in the way that is looking to replace that customer in full. We'd just be using that -- or that narrator in full -- we'd just be using anything that we ever did, which is quite a ways out, based on the current product roadmap. Um, it would be an assist to that narrator and not be to replace that narrator. Anne: Got it. So, in terms of, let's say AI, AI in general, people fear it because I think for the most part, a lot of that fear is based on, they don't necessarily know exactly how it works or -- and they're probably very fearful that it's going to take their job away, which is not a surprise that people in the voiceover industry are afraid that AI is going to take their job away. And so what is your outlook on that? What do you, what do you say to that in terms of your software? And I know that you're not creating voices at this moment, but you are using AI technology. Adam: Yeah. So AI by itself is not Skynet from Terminator. It's not something to be feared. It's kind of like AI does what it is designed to do. So if it is designed to replace a narrator, that's what it'll do. In our case, if it is designed to be an assist to a narrator, that's what it'll do. So AI by itself is not something to fear. Reality is the companies that are creating AI voices are getting better and better. I've listened to a couple of samples lately, and some of them are really good, but the human narrator will always have that lead in terms of the humanness of the voice that -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- no matter how much -- it's like that Tom Hanks movie, "The Polar Express" a while ago where it almost got to the -- the animation was so accurate, it got weird. It was -- Anne: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Adam: I think it's called the -- Anne: Uncanny valley, right? Adam: Uncanny valley, that's it. Anne: Yeah. Adam: It's the same thing with AI narrators is -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- I don't think no matter -- it'll never get all the way there, but the advantages the AI narrators have over humans is they're faster, they're more accurate, and they're cheaper. So people -- we basically say, look, Pozotron is a tool. Anne: Oh wait! Say that again, please. That I, you know, how many people are going to love to hear you say that? That humans are cheap -- you know, in reality, I think they are. Adam: Yeah. So I think that's the advantage. The advantage is not that the AI narrators are better than humans, human narrators, because that's not. Anne: Exactly. Adam: But they're faster -- Anne: yeah. Adam: They're faster, they're more accurate, and they're cheaper. They're most of the time more accurate, I should say. Anne: Yeah. Adam: So using a tool like Pozotron, humans will always have that lead -- Anne: Yes. Adam: -- in the humanness of their voice -- Anne: Exactly. Adam: -- but using tools like Pozotron or many other things out there, or even just a better workflow, will help humans catch up to those AI narrators in terms of speed, accuracy and efficiency. So we kind of pitch our tool as it's almost a way for narrators to stay ahead -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- of the AI voices that aren't going anywhere. So that's really what we're trying to do is, you know, use the same tools to help narrators rather than take over some of this stuff out there. But I will say one thing, I think, no matter how good these AI voices get, there will always be a place for human voices. Anne: Yeah. Adam: I think and a lot of these companies are saying, look, we're just narrating the backlist or, you know, it'll be great for a history textbook. Something that's a thriller or a romance that requires that human emotion -- Anne: Sure. Adam: -- to really make it a piece of art that audiobooks are rather than just something to listen to. One of -- our CEO said the other day, "look, if I wanted to listen to a cheaper, crappier audiobook, I'd say, 'Alexa, read me my book.'" Anne: Interesting. Yeah. And you expect it, and I think when you hit that uncanny valley where it becomes too human, you're right. It kind of, there's a point where you believe, you think it's human, then all of a sudden, maybe you'll hear that note that kind of doesn't sound right. And it'll be like, "ooh, did I just get duped? Is that a person? I thought that was a person." And then I think there's a whole trust factor when that hits. And so I agree that I think when you need that human element, I think we'll always need that. And I think in that respect, that is quicker than AI in terms of, you know, some of the companies that I've been talking to and what I've seen right now, out in AI, while these voices are great or they can sound pretty human, I think they're only human in one instance. So if you ever had to go back and redirect, right? Adam: Yeah. Anne: You know, that emotion that they just emoted, it's the same, no matter if you put it at the front of the script or the, in the middle of the script of the end of the script. And I think if you have a human that you can redirect and have a slightly different nuance of sad, I think that's where humans are quicker and can actually -- I don't know if you can say it can be cheaper because I think these AI voices, they're on computers. They basically are generated by engines. And so somewhere in the ethers, you know, there's a computer out there creating that job or creating that audio for the job, and there's money, you know. Adam: For sure. Anne: There's -- that costs money. And so I feel like the human will always be there. What type of audiobooks -- both, I'd like to get both of your opinions -- what type of audiobooks do you think an AI voice is appropriate for? Or is it not? Adam: Appropriate is a -- appropriate is a different word. Anne: Yeah. Adam: I think instead of using appropriate, I would say acceptable maybe. Anne: Okay. Adam: Anything that's not going to require huge conveyance of emotion or feeling. So that's where I think, you know, educational materials, textbooks, things like that, where you're just absorbing information, I think it is less problematic than if you're reading a book, and there's a scene where a family member dies, and it's really important that that narrator captures that sadness and all those emotions and the subtleness -- subtlety of emotions. Whereas, you know, an AI narrator probably -- or even if the AI narrator can do that, my understanding is currently there's a lot of manual work in the backend essentially saying on this syllable, AI narrator be sad, on this one, pick it up a little bit. Anne: Sure, sure. Adam: So my understanding is currently there is some manual stuff that needs to happen for it to work -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- entirely properly. Anne: Yeah. And I think that it starts to take as much time if you need to dial that emotion to a certain way or dial the speed or whatever, you're, you're changing in that AI, I think you're going to spend more time post-processing to get it to sound more human. And then it ends up taking possibly longer than a human, you know, utilizing something like Pozotron to help, right, proof and get their job done faster. Interesting. So what do you think then is the future of AI for, let's start with what would be the future of AI and how it's being used at Pozotron? And then also, how do you feel AI will ultimately be in five years or ten years? Will it take over the voiceover industry? Or what do you, what are your thoughts? Adam: I'd like Ryan to talk to his -- Ryan's got a really, I mean, we all share it, but Ryan's got an interesting vision on kind of the future of audiobook production with human, with human narrators. I'd like you to go into that, Ryan. Ryan: So as far as the future of AI in Pozotron, I don't even think of it in terms of AI, as I'm working through my day, as I'm doing my testing. That doesn't enter into much of my thought process. Having spent thousands of hours looking for misreads and doing reporting, those two things were the absolute worst part of my job. They are the hardest to do consistently. It's the easiest to make mistakes. And the fact that there's a tool, whether it's AI or not, that makes that part easier, that's my push. That's my function. The fact that AI is there helping make that part better for the proofing process, for the scanning of scripts, for all of that, it's that way to make things easier for people, and the, the AI part of it, the mechanics behind it, don't concern me all that much as a technician. And on the creative side, I would love to see AI be that tool that makes the performance go to that next level. You know that you have an AI behind you telling you when you make your mistakes. So you don't have to worry about it. Anne: Yeah. Ryan: As a narrator, okay, you have these seven pages to do and "oh, am I going to make any mistakes? How long is it going to take, you know, my engineer to get that back to me, who do I have to turn it into next? How do I note it?" All of those things are going to be in your head, but if you have a complete set of tools that look for those things, you can be absolutely peaceful and zenned out, knowing that you have this extra set of eyes and ears and knowledge behind you. And so the future to me as a performer, being able to come to their tools, their microphone and their computer, and do an entire production on their own and have it not just a one-to-one ratio with editing or proofing or -- but a one-to-one production of the whole thing, how they want it, how they love it, how it's supposed to sound. So that's what I see in a few years is a set of tools that allows you, Anne, to go up to your station and make an audiobook. Anne: I love that. Ryan: That's what I see. Anne: Yeah. Ryan: That's what I'm excited for. Anne: Yeah, it gives you the time and the peace of mind to go and be an artist -- Ryan: Yep. Anne: -- which is what you are meant to do, and not necessarily worry about how long it's going to take to edit. I love that outlook. That's wonderful. Thank you for that. Absolutely. Adam: From the AI side of that, it's really just taking either algorithms we built or algorithms we are building to basically make all of the work around audiobooks easier. So an example right now is in our next step of this character voice tool that we're using, we're building an algorithm that will score, yeah, every single mention of a character's name based on two attributes. One of them is that character. So let's take, for example, Sherlock Holmes links to a verb denoting speech also modified by an adverb. So it'll take every single mention of that character's name and the book, and give you an output of the top 20 examples of that character speaking, where there is a description about how that character spoke. So when you're putting together your character voice prep -- Anne: Wow. Adam: -- and deciding as a narrator, hey, this is the voice I'm going to use -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- you can use our tool scan to through the top 20 mentions saying Sherlock spoke aggressively, Sherlock spoke in a high tone, Sherlock spoke, exclaimed sadly, or something like that. Where you can basically use this tool to easily figure out all the cues from the book and then plan out your character's voice. Anne: Wow, that's great. Adam: And then the other side of it, so really instead of having to do what they're currently doing -- Anne: Yeah. Adam: -- which is reading the book with a highlighter and taking note of everything they're doing, you can parse an entire book and take all those cues in a fraction of that time while still getting the same high quality work. And then the next step of that, that we've already built into our pronunciation guide, is once you've done your work, you've created your pronunciation list. You've created your character voice guide. You can currently export that into a marked up PDF where every word in your pronunciation guide is automatically highlighted in your script with a call-out box saying this is the phonetic pronunciation -- Anne: Wow. Adam: -- or this is your note saying how, how that voice should sound. And then in the future, it's going to be a teleprompter where instead of just seeing a call-out box, you click play, and you listen to yourself speaking in that character's voice. You pause your recording, listen to yourself, and then click record again and start going. So removing all of those -- Anne: Oh, that's wonderful. Adam: -- switching between apps. Anne: Yup. Adam: And, you know, some people have their character list on their iPhone in a note -- Anne: Yup, yup. Adam: -- or something like that, everything is centralized and that takes -- gets us closer to that one-to-one recording time to finished hour of audio time. Anne: Right, so you can get right to the point in your wav file that you need to be. Because when I go back in and have to do pickups, I have to hunt for where was that? You know, where was that part in my, in my single wav file there that I said this particular thing that I have to do the pickup. So that's, that's phenomenal. I, I think what a wonderful tool. How can BOSSes out there get in touch with you, find out more about your software, maybe -- is that a subscription based model? Adam: Um, so first, uh, they can check us out at www.pozotron.com. That's P-O-Z-O-T-R-O-N.com. Um, or email us at hello@pozotron.com. Uh, we have a number of pricing plans from pay as you go, which has absolutely no subscription. You pay $10 per hour of audio you upload, all charged down to the minute, but it's easier to say $10 per hour than 16.667 cents per minute, but all the way up to, you know, we have some, some of the biggest publishers are putting six, 700 hours of audio a month, and you're getting, and you're paying a much reduced per hour rate based on whatever volume you're doing. So we have very flexible plans from literally you put in 10 minutes of audio a month up to thousands of hours of audio a month. Um, we're very flexible and our subscriptions are only ever month to month. So if you have a big, either increase in volume, you can jump up to a bigger plan. If you have a lull over the Christmas season or holiday season, um, you can go down, 'cause we never want people to be paying for something they're not using because we're a believer in, you know, we'd rather lower our revenues from a customer for a month to make a happier customer because that customer is going to stay with us over the longterm. Anne: Fantastic. And I'm going to push for anybody that does long-form narration, really. I can absolutely see this as being a tool that can really help us, so fantastic. You guys, thank you so very much for joining me today. It has been amazing, and BOSSes out there, make sure to check out Pozotron. I think it's going to really help you do your job better, and thanks again for sharing your time with us today. And I am going to give a great, big shout-out to our sponsor ipDTL that allows us to connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. Thanks again, Ryan and Adam. It's been a pleasure. Ryan: Thank you. Adam: Thank you very much. This was, this was really fun. Anne: Awesome. Alright, BOSSes. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye. Adam: Bye! Ryan: Bye! >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Product descriptions may seem straightforward, but if done right they can significantly improve conversion rates. Today Jon explains why product descriptions are one of the most effective changes you can change to your website and how to write great product descriptions that will convert. The article Jon mentioned on how to write production descriptions that sell: https://thegood.com/insights/product-descriptions/ TRANSCRIPT: Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast about helping online brands to build a better eCommerce growth engine, with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. Ryan: Jon, you recently wrote an article that kind of put my head in a spin around product description. Jon: Sometimes that's too easy. Ryan: I know. Spinning my brain's not necessarily the most difficult thing to do if you're in the space, but you wrote an article about product descriptions and how they can significantly improve conversion rates. And that surprises me because I personally ignore those all the time and I focus on other aspects of marketing and driving traffic as per usual. But that for me, is kind of like a side, just put it in there. As long as it's in there and then we can manipulate it going into Google shopping, where it's going to have an impact on your traffic. Just get something in there, period. Obviously I was wrong on this in my opinion. And I'm probably not alone in that. I'm excited today, Jon's going to school us on product descriptions and what you should be doing as an eCommerce business to leverage that to improve conversion rates. Jon, kick us off, explain at a high level, of all the things you could be focusing on on your site, why product descriptions in your mind, are one of the top things you can be doing to improve conversion rates? Jon: Yeah well, I think you basically just said it best in your tee up here where a lot of people just don't pay attention to this. And I think it's really, really forgotten. And that's a challenge in that as you're optimizing websites, it's one of the first places we go because most people forget about it. But look, we've learned over a decade of running AB tests on hundreds of product detail pages that optimizing your product descriptions is just one of the highest return, lowest investment improvements that an eCommerce manager can make. And look, they're key part of your potential customer's decision making process. I think the stat that my team here at The Good always says is that 87% of consumers rate product content extremely or very important to deciding to buy. Ryan: Wow. Jon: 87%. Ryan: Way higher than I would've thought. Jon: Right. Well, that's exactly the problem is most people don't think about this. And so if you're not optimizing product descriptions, you're certainly leaving money on the table. That's why you should focus on this. Ryan: If we're going to improve it, if we just assume that for example, my product descriptions are just terrible because I didn't focus on them, what are the areas I need to be looking at as I'm staring at my product description? And where do I start? I guess would be the best question. Jon: Well, I think there's four main areas that everyone should be focusing on and we can chat about today, but we can break these down. But the first is the real job of a product description. Most people think the real job of the product description is something that it's not. And we'll dive into that a little bit. The second is that it's an effective product description template needs to be used, so we can talk about what goes into those and what items you need to check the box to really make it great. And then how to write one that converts. It's not just having the content, you need to also be thinking about how you're writing that content. And then we can really talk about frequently asked questions around the product descriptions that I get, because I get a lot of questions about it. Once we start optimizing, people start thinking about it, a lot more questions come up than you might imagine. Partly, that's why we're doing the show today, it makes your head spin a little bit. That means there's a lot of questions there and you're not alone in that really. Maybe we can just break those four down and discuss each pretty briefly. Ryan: Yeah, I'm excited for it. What's the real job of a description of a product? In my mind, it's to describe the product. It's a blue t-shirt, congratulations. Jon: Yeah, right, exactly. If you just said blue t-shirt, how many sales do you think you're going to get? Let's just poke a hole in the idea that the job of the eCommerce product description is just to describe the product. I think that that's not right. Given the name, it makes sense that most folks think this, but product descriptions aren't there to just describe what's on your eCommerce site. They're also there to qualify. Do they help your visitors quickly assess, is this for someone like me? Do they persuade? Is it a compelling description? Is it customer centered on the reasons they should be considering that product? And then it's also there to surface. And what I mean by that is to help people find the product. This is the third one on purpose because a lot of people will stuff keywords throughout in terms of search engine optimization in optimizing the product description, but look, SEO keywords and search terms, and if you use those in a natural way, you'll get the page to show up and you want it to show up in search engine or even Amazon results if you're talking about optimizing your product descriptions on Amazon, which should also be done. Here's really one way to really think about this, product descriptions are a bit like your 24/7 in store retail associate for your online store. We often talk about if you wouldn't do something in a retail store, don't do it on your website. Let's take that analogy a step further and say, "How would associate talk about the product?" If you walked into a store and said, "Hey, I'm looking for a t-shirt," what questions are they going to ask to help you find the right one in that store? As a virtual retail associate, the product description can have that same kind of impact. And if it does its job well, it's going to draw visitors to your goods and then increase the conversions on those. And if it's done poorly, it's just going to frustrate visitors and push them away and hurt sales. It's very, very similar. Ryan: I like that. I think a lot of people, at least in what I think through is I don't think about qualifying. I'm like, you got to my page, you click on my products from Google shopping, you saw the price, just go buy it. And then if I'm in the jar looking at the label in the wrong way, from that perspective and I step out, I realize, okay, well I know conversion rates on shopping traffic is generally lower than category page traffic and so I'm like, oh well, possibly because my category is doing a better job describing a product or qualifying that person coming in and I'm just leaving that there rather than pulling it through and looking at qualifying them. Jon: Yeah. You're not alone on that. A lot of brands look at a category page as an opportunity to convert. I look at a category page as an opportunity to help somebody to the next step in the funnel, which is get them to that product detail page. And that's where you can really convert and sell and make sure people are getting the right product for them. Ryan: Okay, I concur. Tell us then okay, once I decide that it's more than just describing a product, what's a template look like that's going to help me through creating this product description that is going to be more than just describing my product? Jon: I love when I can change minds. And I'm glad we're helping do that today. All right. Ryan: We are. Jon: Again, here. Ryan: I'm taking notes. Jon: There are a handful of bullet points of things that you want to ensure are included. First of all, you need a descriptive headline. Use a product title that's going to hook your audience. Bonus points if you can connect with them emotionally. We don't want blue t-shirt, we want the t-shirt that makes your dad bod look hot. Ryan: I'm getting those ads on Instagram, by the way. I'm like, no, this is terrible. Jon: Ryan's looking good today in his shirt, by the way. All right. Benefits focused paragraphs. Use a descriptive paragraph to explain why, and I mean exactly why the customer benefits from the product. Too many people talk about features and that's it, they're just bullet point features and then don't talk about the benefits. You know how I led with the t-shirt that's going to make your dad bod look hot? That's what we want to be talking about here. What's the benefit? Not that it's a blue t-shirt. Yeah, that might be in there, but what's the benefit of wearing that t-shirt? The other thing we want to have in here is a key benefits list. Follow that description with a bulleted list of product features and benefits and this is where you can get into those details that if somebody is just skimming, they're going to look at that list. You're really what you're doing here is you're providing the benefits in a paragraph, maybe even telling a little bit of a story could be really helpful there. Don't make it too long. But then if somebody really wants, just give me the details. I already know I want a blue t-shirt, I just am deciding between two or three different ones and they want to know the specs and the features, that's where they're going to go is the bullet list. Don't bury those in the paragraph. The paragraph should be, hey, here's the benefits to you. If you want to know the features and the details, look at the bullet list that comes next. And then the fourth thing is, add some additional motivations. Really what we're trying to do here is just minimize those remaining purchase hurdles. Will it fit? Do others like it? Do things like credibility, social proof, you can bake in product reviews or even urgency. And of course, make sure you have a clear call to action. So many brands, we talk to have four buttons to add to cart and it's like, oh, you can use quad pay, after pay. You could use Amazon checkout. You could use both. And it's like, just give them one button and then push that to the next step. Get them to commit and then ask them how you want to pay. Ryan: Because my brain goes in funny directions when you say urgency, can you explain what that means from you, your perspective? Because it's probably not the little popup thing on Shopify that says, "Hey Bob in New York just bought this and Suzie in Florida just bought. Jon: You know me well. Ryan: Because I guarantee you don't like that one because I don't like that one. Jon: Yeah, nobody likes that. Ryan: And I don't have as many dislikes as you. Jon: I call that one of those wildfire apps and I call it wildfire because they just spread without anyone knowing how it started or why it's spreading. Ryan: Yeah, my competitor's probably doing it so I did it, and that's the worst way. Jon: And you don't see those apps as much anymore, a couple years ago, it was really popular and then everyone installed it and they realized this isn't doing anything. And also half of the companies using it are aligned about who's purchasing what, they all had Bob from Waco, Texas and it was kind of like you see Bob from Waco, Texas. Ryan: That guy shops on every site and I've been on. Jon: Exactly. And you're kind of like, that's the default it gives you. Here's the other thing. I really think what you need to be thinking about here in urgency is stock levels. And I'm not talking about lying. I'm saying, okay, only a few left. And what I mean by few? Well, I have two or three and you'd better buy it right away or it's going to go out of stock. There's some great tools, especially if you're on platforms like Shopify that are great apps that will do dynamic badging around quantity left so it can pull your quantities and do a dynamic image overlay on your product images. It will put a badge up in the corner that says, "Two left, one left," whatever. That's what I'm talking about with urgency. Or something like, hey free shipping. You're doing an offer, not a discount. When I talk about urgency, I'm not talking discounts as you know quite well. There could be some offers. It could be, right now it's a buy one, get a free gift. There's a whole litany of offers you can do that are not discounting and so I think when I'm talking about urgency, I'm talking about those type of items. Ryan: And so generally if you're a brand that has just tons of inventory, you have to focus more on getting creative and incentivizing without discounting to get that purchase from the product page. Jon: Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Create urgency if it's necessary. The other thing we see perform really well in terms of urgency is if it's out of stock to sign up to get notified when it's in stock. We have a client we've worked with for years, that is a really well known Japanese outdoor brand, outdoor camping high end. And what we have done for them over the years is help refine their out of stock notifications. They have some products that never are in stock because as soon as they send out that out of stock notification, they burn through their stock again. And I'm not talking that they only get five or 10 in, no, they get thousands. But the thing about it is, is that consumers have all signed up for this list and they want these products. We say, "Hey, you want this product? Sign up to be notified." And then we send out on an email and that email goes out, "Back in stock, click here to buy it," adds it right to the cart and they're able to purchase. And then before it even ever hits the site and it changes the product detail pages show how much stock is left, it's gone within hours. Ryan: Geez. Yeah, I'm going to test pre-sale. I'm going to say, "Hey, this new blend from Joyful Dirt's coming out, we're going to start advertising it and pre-sell it on social so we can start demand, figuring what demand looks like, what our production runs need to look like." Jon: That's a great idea. Ryan: And hopefully there's a lot there, but if not, they were like, "Yeah, we're only going to produce a few hundred. We'll be fine." Okay, so what else do we need to be considering what's average eCom business owner not going to be thinking about that you know that they don't even know to ask? What don't I know that I should know. Jon: Well, I think there's some simple questions that need to be answered. Let's look at this as maybe I don't know, questions that somebody doing a natural deodorant product might have. You need to think about this, who's the customer? That's always the first one, who's the potential customer? When you're starting to write this, you need to be thinking about that first. Let's say here, it would be men and women who are fed up with chemical packed deodorants. Just being a normal deodorant and saying, "Hey, people who don't like to stink," that's not going to be good enough. What's your differentiating point? The second is, what problems does it solve? This is where you can get into it helps keep them stink free. The potential customer is not the problem, it's what pain are you solving for them that is a little bit deeper than the surface level? And then the problem it solves is really the high level okay, people buy deodorant for this main reason. But the differentiating point is what's going to define that potential customer. Then you get into what desires does it fulfill? For this theater and it would be something like feeling healthier, more responsible towards their bodies and the planet, maybe just feeling less dirty and smelly. They could be that generic. And maybe they've been fertilizing their garden all day with a Joyful Dirt and now they don't want to come back into the house and smell. And then you need to be thinking about what objections people have. And this is where it's like, hey, why are you using a natural deodorant? Or maybe other natural deodorants just don't seem to work or they lie about the ingredients. Those are all types of things you should really be thinking about there. The next question you really want to ask yourself is why you? Why your brand? Compared to the other guys, why does this deodorant actually work? And then last of all, definitely not least, but you really want to think about what words your consumers are using so you can mirror what they're looking for there. And this is great, this is where user research can really come in, just interviewing consumers, doing some user testing, for instance so when they talk about what words they use, things like natural, fresh, perhaps scent or confident, and those are words that you can bake into your product description. They're going to write it for you. And if you go and you answer all of these questions in an outline, kind of like I just did where I answered each question a little bit about deodorant, you'll have most of your product description written and then you can move on from there. Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, the podcast focused on eCommerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with eCommerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers, and Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, a digital marketing agency offering pay per click management, search engine optimization and website design services to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Ryan: I know though, pictures are worth more than words and so do you consider the images on the side of a product description as part of the description? Or is that different entirely? And that's a whole nother conversation around the images? Or do you use them together? Jon: I think it's a whole nother conversation, quite honestly. Although people say a picture's worth a thousand words, I think that's true. And that's why pictures, we should do a whole nother episode on that because I do think it matters. And I think that there's a lot of things out there that you could be doing. I think on model, off model, 360, in use, size comparison. You really got to be thinking about all the different types of images that you could be doing. And a lot of brands will focus on the words, because a lot of consumers will go to the words and with one good photo you can still get them to convert. But after that, you really need to dive in and start thinking about all the other photos that you could do. And that's a ripe opportunity for optimization as well for sure. Ryan: Got it. You've done a lot of obviously user testing and listen to a lot of people go through the process of buying, are there certain types of people that are only going to pay attention to image and some that only pay attention to the words and that's just is a personality or a person? Or is it everybody's taking all that information in together? Jon: I think that as humans we're visual, but there are some people who will, if you have a video, they're just going to watch the video and they're going to skim. This is really huge on B2B websites where you want to bake in video because what's going to happen, meaningful video, Telling you about the product and walking you through it, et cetera, because consumers are going to just scroll until they find video and then watch that video while they're doing something else like on a bus or in traffic or eating lunch. I just did that. I was evaluating some software for our business, for The Good, over lunch and I was eating lunch, watching product videos. I didn't want to read about it. I just wanted to sit there and watch the video. I just put it on one and a half speed and then go. And I think that's a lot of people will do that. And I think in terms of images, it's similar. A lot of people will get that content from the images, but they're not going to get all the features and benefits that way. They're really not. People still need the bullet point list to see all of the features. People who are going to be watching the video, looking at the images, that's where they're going to start and if you don't get it right there, they're not even going to go on to read the bullet list. It is important for a segment of the audience for sure. Ryan: I think of product descriptions kind of like I think of one on my website and I think of the one on the Amazon and I probably put more time into the Amazon one, but I have more volume on Amazon right now. And so, but Amazon has multiple areas for information. You get the top there's image and then a short description and then you go down and you have A plus content and the expanded descriptions. And now that I think about it, a lot of websites have that same type of feel built out around them. Are you seeing a lot of focus needing to be on the short snippet, kind of at the top, more than at the bottom? Because sometimes the descriptions I see, especially on B2B, all the spec tab that is really long and drawn out, you can tell people are just dumping information from an SEO perspective sometimes in there. Is there one area that's more important in all of that? Jon: Yes. I think in the concept of the description, this is what those towards the top of the page. Often you'll have images on the left and then all the product description content on the right. As you scroll down, you can take those bullet points we talked about earlier with the benefits and the specific features and that bullet list and break that down throughout the page. That's typically what I would recommend. Have the bullet point and if people want to dive into each one of those, so say you're talking about the deodorant as we talked about earlier and you want to look at the ingredients list. Well, you can say all natural ingredients as a bullet point. And then at the bottom you could start saying all natural ingredients and then you break out what those ingredients are and talk about the benefits of each and how it's truly all natural and it doesn't include, what is the big one? Aluminum or something that people don't like? I don't know. But I think, it's something like that where you would use the rest of the page to truly break it down. And that's where you can also inject some brand. And it's also where you should be injecting supporting content like blog articles. To me, too many brands put the blog on the homepage, so they have like this lineup of blog posts that nobody cares about on their homepage. The blog post is top of the funnel. It's great for getting people to your site. It's great for SEO for instance. But then if they're on product detail page and you send them back up the funnel, you need to make sure that it's done in a supporting fashion so that you're not just sending them right back to the top of the funnel for no good reason. What I mean by that is maybe you have a blog article all about those ingredients or a specific ingredient that you're using and you want to talk about why it's more superior and you need a 1,000 or 1,500 words. Well, that's not good for your product detail page, but it would be good to link to that and say, "Hey, want to learn more about this? Read this blog post about it." That's also going to help your SEO and Google find all of that content together. Ryan: Yeah, I think exactly zero times have I ever gone from a homepage trying to research a brand for a product and gone to the blog and be like, hmm, let me read some blogs. Jon: No, not going to happen. Ryan: Never happen. And I'm like, no, I'm here to buy a product or research the product, not read about how the product worked on X, Y, Z in these conditions. Jon: Yeah, but when you're on a product detail page and doing your research and you're far enough down that step, it might be relevant to some degree to know that it's there. Ryan: Awesome. No, obviously Jon you've broken down and torn apart a lot of product pages over your life. What are some of the questions that you've had clients ask you as they've gone through the process and tried to implement a lot of what you've talked about, even with your template? And are there any funny ones or when it makes sense that other people are probably going to be asking after they start doing this? Jon: Yeah. Yeah, you're right, I've probably broken down hundreds of thousands of these at this point. I don't know that might be exaggerating, but it is kind of like what's that movie with the kid where he's like, "I see dead people." That's me. I can't go down the internet and shop without seeing messed up product detail pages everywhere. It's just unfortunate side effect of my job. But I will say, I do love when we have a positive effect on those. And so I'm always happy to answer questions, but yeah, I do get some off the wall ones. I think the biggest one I get all the time is, can't I just copy my description from a competitor? It's working for them so why not? I hear that all the time. But I'm shocked I even have to answer this. But yeah, the short answer is no, you can't lift product descriptions from your competitors. Look, beyond the SEO challenges of that, meaning that it's going to be a challenge where Google sees the same as that content across two sites and then you're playing a really hard to win game because Google is going to pick one of them or when they do that, it's likely not going to be you because it knows that content has been on the other site longer and so that's what it considers the original source. Ryan: Now what about product descriptions from the supplier or the manufacturer? Especially if you've got a site with a 100,000 products on it. Jon: Well, you might want to evaluate why you have a site with a 100,000 products. Ryan: True. There's a lot of them out there. Jon: Yeah. I wonder how many of those are just dropped shipping, not doing that great. And that's why they're not doing that great. If you really want to be successful at something like that, you need to customize the heck out of it. And so you really do need to sit down and do this for all the products so it's not just the manufacturer description. Now you can base it on that manufacturer description, but don't copy and paste that because everyone else who's drop shipping that product is doing the same thing. Or on top of that, you're not really adding any additional value and I can promise you, most of those subscriptions are D level work. They're not even a passing grade in most cases. I think copying is a moral issue for me in addition to the SEO issue so it's two strikes you're out rule, really. Using the manufacturer, I think is the SEO role and ineffective. It's just a non-starter. Ryan: And I think that if you are in the eCommerce world and you are assuming something, you're going to lose. You never assume that this is working for a competitor because they're doing it and you think they're bigger than you. And you assume that somebody knows what they're doing. Obviously I have a wine and beer read business and you drink wine, if you read wine descriptions, those are generally written by somebody sitting at a desk at a winery that's coming up with weird terms. One of my friends owns a winery and I'm like, "Well, how'd you come up with your descriptions?" "Oh my wife and I started drinking wine and decided, let's start putting these things in there." You can't assume that, if it works it's on accident many times. Jon: I have a good friend who runs an agency that does nothing but branding and labels for wine and spirits brands and that is the number one challenge that they get from brands, their customers that they work with, is that those vineyards will send over the descriptions and they're like, this isn't going to fly, we got to help you optimize this. It's a challenge. It's not unique. They're like, you might as well just label it alcohol, alcohol from grapes. And that's always the joke. My friend is always just like, "You sent me this description. I'm just going to change it and say alcohol from grapes." Ryan: We're planting wine grapes right now. And I told my wife, it's like, "We're going to make some wine with it." She's like, "You think it's going to be good?" I'm like, "Probably not, but we're just going to call it Ryan's Yeast Juice. It's going to be great. It's going to sound like crap." Jon: When you gift me a bottle, I'll know. Ryan: Yeah, Ryan's Yeast Juice. That's actually why, I add grape juice with some yeast in it that sat in the bottle for too long, became alcoholic. Jon: Can't wait, can't wait. Ryan: I can't wait for my marketing to go, all the marketing energy I have, Ryan's Yeast Juice. I should probably trademark before it gets out. Jon: Yeah. Made with Ryan's fertilizer. How's that? Ryan: Yeah. Jon: Joyful Dirt line. Well yeah, I think the other question that I get a lot here is how long product descriptions should be. And I think it's not a one size fits all. It's long enough to be helpful, short enough to be digestible and depends on the product. A few quick sentences could work for your products or you may need to write 1,500 words, but I think it's something where you really need to understand your audience. Are they here quick? Are they deciding between a couple of things and want a feature list? Or should you put more effort into the story? Also, there's the brand aspect. There's a lot of brands who have a lot of fun with their product descriptions. And then there's a lot of brands who are just dry. That's just kind of their brand and you go from there. Ryan: Okay. Over the past, let's just keep it recent, three years, who would you say of companies you've at least seen their site, you don't have to work with them, probably did the best with their product descriptions? Jon: Yeah. Are you familiar with Chubbies? Ryan: I'm not. Jon: Ooh, okay. Chubbies is a men's, mostly men's clothing brand and they do some hilarious descriptions. They started out, I believe selling swim trunks. Ryan: Oh yeah. Yeah, now I remember. Jon: And it's now a bunch of other stuff, but they've always done some good work. I haven't looked at the site in a while, but they were pretty good one from back in the day. And I think, generally there's brands like OLIPOP and a few others like that who are new and are doing a really, really good job with it. I don't know if you've heard of OLIPOP. It's kind of like a new flavored seltzer brand. They do a really, really good job with it. I also think that there's a couple out there around more around eyeglasses, Felix Gray, things of that sort, that do a really, really good job. And I think that their biggest competitor is Warby Parker. And I think Warby Parker does a good job, but Felix Gray has really made their calling card being better content on the page. Ryan: Got it. Jon: The other one that I really like is Cards Against Humanity. I don't know if you've ever been to their site. Ryan: I love that game. It's the most inappropriate fairly game we've played with my in-laws. Jon: Okay, I was going to say, yeah, that could be awkward at best. Ryan: Oh it for sure is. Jon: They have a teenager version I've played with my cousins and I will tell you, that got awkward real quick too. But they have add on packs and all this other stuff and they do a great job with branding. And they have a couple of sentences, they'll say, "Hey, this is just," they'll be very quick. This is all about these topics. It's 300, but they'll inject some brand. They'll say, "All new absurd box contains 300 mind bending cards that came to us after taking peyote and wandering in the desert." And it's kind of like, that's funny and I know what I'm going to get is just weird random stuff. And then it's, they did in the bullet points. 300 brand new cards to mix into your game. This one's pretty weird. They're going to be weird, I get it. It's an expansion. It requires the main game. Now I'm like, okay, I get it. It's expansion pack. And you have nothing to lose, but your chains, I don't know what that even means, but that's what they're telling you. I think, it's on brand because it's super random. And I think that last bullet point is all meant to just demonstrate the randomness that you're going to get out of this pack. And then if you go down the page, they have a lot more info about and some samples and stuff, but that kind of gives you a good example there. Ryan: Thank you. That's awesome. Any parting words or places people need to be focusing and getting started on? Jon: Yeah, I think look, it's there's a simple formula that you can follow and too many brands don't even try to follow the formula. And if you go to The Good's website and on our insights or articles page, or just go to thegood.com/insights/product-descriptions, we have a really great article that breaks all of this down and more. Gives you ton of examples and it's a great way for you to just take the template we've got on there and start using that and applying it to your product descriptions and Ryan, it sounds like you may have some work to do, but it will get you a higher conversion. Ryan: I think I might. But thanks for the time, Jon. I appreciate it and educating me as always on how to make my site work better. Jon: All right. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing the results on that. Thanks for chatting today. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert, with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com

Larger companies get most of the press and excitement with their 6 and 7 figure marketing budgets, but the majority of clients we work with are smaller. And smaller companies have to do things a little differently than the big guys. What impact does a small budget have on driving traffic? How should small budget brands compete online? https://www.logicalposition.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Hey Ryan. So we get companies contacting us all the time, that don't have large, six or seven figure marketing budgets, and many times, those large clients get most of the press and excitement, but the majority of companies that end up investing in marketing are going to be smaller, and smaller companies have to do things a little bit differently. I want to ask you today, what impact does a small budget have on driving traffic and how do those small budget brands compete online? They obviously want to compete, they have to compete in order to grow, and I want to know what's the magic, how do they make that happen? I'm excited to talk to you about this today, and I guess I'll start pretty broad, in e-commerce, is there such a thing as too small of a budget? Ryan: Across the board as a broad general rule, no, but if you're really going to do something with your budget, then yes. I mean, you have to have enough budget to start moving things around and collecting data. And I think that initial starting budget, if you're a smaller business, is going to be important to determine how quick you can grow, how aggressive you can be, where are you going to find that opportunity to take the next step in the digital marketing evolution of your business? And I challenged a lot of business owners in this space, as I'm talking to smaller ones all the time. Like for example, yes, you can start with $100 a month budget, it's your money, and you can market it however you want, invest it however you want. But if you're e-commerce, you're e-commerce so that you can sell everywhere and have your online store open all the time, even when you're sleeping. And so if that's the case, $100 is not going to get you very far in marketing across the internet. And so if you're going to do something that small, you really need to be hyper, hyper, hyper-focused, which does limit your potential and opportunities to find little pockets where you can really dominate or win. And so I would generally say less than $1,000, there may be better places for your money than trying to drive traffic with it online. Jon: Interesting. I was going to ask, and maybe you've just answered, but I'd love your take on this too, if I only have $1,000 a month to spend, is it worth doing it or am I just throwing my money away, when we're talking about driving traffic through traditional paid media sense? Ryan: That's a difficult one because most business owners that are coming up with this $1,000 and you're smaller, that's a meaningful number to them probably, but they probably don't have the expertise to really make that $1,000 do as much as it can. And so you probably have to bring an expert in, and that costs money as well, because most people in the digital marketing world are not working for free. And so you have to figure in an expert generally, and I'll probably come back to that point, but for most businesses, I would say that you have to look at it through a lens of time and money. Jon: Okay. Ryan: Anybody can learn how to do digital marketing. You have to be able to study, you have to be able to go in and make some mistakes and learn it, but anybody can figure it out. It's definitely not the most complex thing you could be learning. But if you have more time, then you should be doing some of that work yourself and learning it and getting it to it like, "Can I get some basic things done?" If you have more money, than you need to hire people and your budget should probably be a little bit higher to be able to invest and push traffic. Jon: So we should be saying, when we say budget for today's conversation, should I be thinking about it as budget including the expert or budget just in what you would spend to drive traffic in these channels? Ryan: I think businesses should be looking at it together, but I think most business owners are thinking about, "Okay, I can spend $1,000 to drive traffic. Let's go put that on Google and make it work." I do believe though, the Googles in particular and I'll focus on Google for right now, but Google in particular has done some pretty cool things helping small e-commerce businesses get going. If you've got a feed and you're on a smaller platform, like if you're on Shopify, it's very, very simple to get up and running on Shopify and get your products going to Google. And then there's what Google is calling smart shopping campaigns that allow a business really to say, "Google, here's how much I'm willing to spend per day, and here's the goal I need to get out of it." It does not take an expert to get that up and running. And in fact, I tell companies, do not pay an agency to manage smart shopping campaigns because there's nothing to do. It can be a small piece of an overall structure, in fact, we at Logical Position do use smart campaigns in a small piece of a campaign occasionally, but we have to do a lot more work in the reporting and strategy on that type of client, to be able to justify charging management fees on smart campaigns. Jon: Okay. That makes sense. Ryan: Small budgets use more automation, I think, is the name of the game. Use things that are set up to make sure you don't just waste a bunch of money, and I think that's where a lot of small businesses, what keeps them from starting often is that fear of, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to go waste money trying to drive traffic because I don't know how to do it right." Doing some research, I think, can help keep that option to a minimum, that is just going to go out there and be a big waste. Jon: Let's say a company hasn't driven traffic on Google. How do they decide what that starting budget should be? Ryan: This generally comes down to, what's the business doing as a whole? If you're doing $100,000 a month on your website and you haven't been spending money, you probably have a larger amount you could start with then if I'm only doing $1,000 a month in sales. It's a threshold there of starting to look at it, but I generally say, in e-commerce, at least $1,000 to start with on Google. And then start thinking about it through a lens of, "I know I'm not going to be starting out at the gate if I'm doing it myself in a perfect world scenario." So there's going to be some learnings. I look at it through the lens of what's my light money on fire threshold, to let me get things going, and I've done this with new platforms on some of my brands. Nobody knew what they were doing yet, across the entire platform. Pinterest is being one of them. A couple years ago, it was just wide open. Nobody knew what it was going to do. I think they're getting some more structure in place and it's driving better traffic, but I went onto it saying, "Look, I don't know what it's going to do." My light money threshold at that point was, I think about 2,500 bucks, so I talked to Pinterest like, "Look, we can go a thousand a day for two and a half days if you want, or we can go $100 a day for about a month. I'm okay with either, whichever one you think is going to work better for me." And that was my light money on fire threshold, that I wasn't going to be mad, I was just like, "Yeah, that did suck, but I got some learnings." Pinterest didn't work for us at that point in time on that business, we'll continue to be revisiting it. But all that to come back around to it can't be a budget that if it doesn't work, it's going to tank your business, because there's a lot of unknowns if you haven't been on Google before, to how is your website going to convert, what traffic is going to work best for you. Because you'll take the same product with the same price for the same search query, going to two different sites and it's going to convert and there's going to be a different return on ad spend. And so with all of that unknown, anybody that tells you they know exactly what you're going to get by putting $1,000 out there, they're lying to you because there's no data to tell you one way or another. There's no way to know. Jon: Okay. So don't bet the farm. Ryan: Don't bet the farm, but it should probably make you a little uncomfortable. Jon: Okay. Ryan: When I'm looking at business decisions and I want to grow, and you know me, I tend to be on the aggressive side of things, I want what I'm risking to make me a little uncomfortable. I don't want it to be an easy decision or an easy thing to be like, "Okay." Could I have wasted $100 to test Pinterest? Yeah, but that was not an uncomfortable thing. 2,500 from me was a little bit uncomfortable. Partners and I talked through it and we're like, "Okay, if it returns nothing, that's not going to be great. But again, we're not going to lose the business because of a mistake if it doesn't work." So a little bit of uncomfort, I think, is good. Jon: Okay. So then let's say I have a thousand bucks, where do I start, Facebook, Google, something else? Ryan: I think generally it's going to come down to those two for most businesses to start off with. I think other platforms generally are younger and they are less proven and therefore generally higher up in the funnel. Like if you're going to jump right on TikTok or Snapchat for marketing and you haven't done Google or Facebook, I think it's going to be difficult to know if that platform is actually working for you, if you haven't gone to more advanced ones yet. And so when I talk to a business owner or a marketing team that's looking at deciding between both of those two to start, the easy way of looking at it as if there is existing market for your product, I generally say go to Google because you're going to capture people towards the bottom of the funnel as they're looking for your product. If you're creating a brand new category, there's not a lot of people searching for it on Google and so you're going to have to figure out how to create that and find the right audiences on Facebook and convince people to start trying you to build that search volume. So for example, last week I talked to a guy, his company makes edible bubbles and I'm like, "I have never heard of this before.'. Jon: Isn't that bubblegum? Ryan: Yeah. This is for kids going out and playing and blowing bubbles, he makes edible bubbles. And I had no idea my kids would want that until he sent me some samples and they're actually pretty cool. Jon: That's awesome. Ryan: But they actually make them for bars. Someday when we get to go back to a bar, they make these bubbles you can blow on top of a drink, and a lot of times they infuse them with smoke for presentations. Jon: That's cool. That's a great idea. Ryan: So really cool stuff, but there's not a target market yet that they know to search for that. So I, before last week, never would have even considered searching for the term edible bubble or edible bubble for a drink or bar drink presentation bubbles, that's just not even there. And so for that type of business, you've got to go on Facebook, you've got to target bartenders, you've got to target moms with kids, with the kid bubble one. And there's some really cool targeting on Facebook, and if you've got a good visual and some good offers, I think Facebook can work really well. For other businesses, Facebook generally will hit top of funnel like that, and so the return, again, generalizations, is going to be a little bit lower than if you had run some bottom funnel, Google stuff to figure out where people are searching for your product and what are your advantages and all of that. Jon: So we're talking the difference between perhaps intent versus awareness? Ryan: Yes. Like if there's already people searching with intent for your products or services, I would go capture them first. It's going to be a little more expensive per click, possibly, there's generally going to be more competition, but it's an existing demand that you're tapping into. You've just got to figure out how you're going to compete there. If you're creating a brand new product that nobody's ever searched before, you probably can't even spend your money on Google on search terms, you're going to be on broad match keywords on Google wasting money. Jon: Right. No, that definitely makes sense, then Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, the podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers. Ryan Garrow, of Logical Position, the digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization and website design services, to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Jon: What other things tactics do the smaller budgets need to be aware of? What else would you consider? Ryan: Some of the tactics I talked about when looking at smaller budgets on advertising and driving traffic, don't even have to do with the tactics to drive the traffic. A lot of small businesses, even over the last year with COVID and a lot of brick and mortar moving into online, a lot of them haven't thought about what is my advantage online? If you are selling the exact same product at the exact same price, and you have no discernible advantage over a competitor, what are you doing? Try to figure out, before you go spend money, why somebody is going to buy from you. And you can't really tell me that your advantage online is going to be because you have really smart salespeople inside, or you have a lot of knowledge in your industry, because that's not going to come across in Google shopping. Nobody cares how much you know, they don't know how much people know when they're just going to a website and transacting. And so you've got to figure out what that advantage looks like first. Why should somebody buy from you versus a competitor, if they've never met either one of you and all they're doing is seeing your website because the internet is the great equalizer and small companies can't compete with big companies, if they're better at certain things. Better at converting, if all of your competitors are stuck on really ancient Yahoo stores that are 20 years old, and you're going to come in there with a Shopify or a big commerce site, that's really easy to convert on. That can be a significant advantage, even if everything else is the same. Jon: It's funny, you say that, a friend and I were just talking about that and we were laughing, saying a great business model would be to just go to find a index of all the remaining Yahoo stores making over a million dollars a year and just replicate that on a better platform, with better usability and you would print money. Ryan: Why are we doing a podcast? Let's go get a list and start making business. But it's true. I think we still have 50 clients on Yahoo and some of them are, I think, are on the RTML, that really old coding platform, that if you're not 50, you've never even heard of that. And I only heard about it because we have clients on it. Jon: Yeah. Look, I mean, I think a lot of these stores take the approach of, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And they're still printing money, so why change it? I think they're going to ride that till the end. So somebody will come along and end them by doing something better, but you got to find it first. Talking about that is one of the things that the platform could be, one thing that these smaller companies are doing wrong. But thinking about smaller budgets, if they're sending traffic to their site, what do most of these smaller budgets do wrong? What mistakes are they making with their small budgets? Ryan: I think a lot of them, if they do have some advantages and they do have a reason to market, a lot of them make the mistake of not being aggressive enough. I think I've mentioned this probably multiple times, but a lot of small business owners really watch their P and L and all line items going in and out of the business, which is good. But when they come to Google ads, it can quickly become a very large line item and they want to focus on, hey, I need to increase profits, so we need to start cutting this budget and controlling Google, because if I control something in the middle of my P and L, the bottom gets bigger. And unfortunately, something like a Google ads or Facebook ad, is generally driving top line number that does translate into bottom line number, but if you eliminate what's driving that top line, it can really have an opposite effect of what you're intending. And so it's really a paradigm shift. If you're looking at your budget like a line item, you start looking at it as you're investing in getting new customers and then what are you going to do with it? Don't see Google ads or Facebook ads as a cost necessarily, unless you're purposely losing money and you have to control that piece, but that's a whole different story and most small businesses are not doing that, so I won't dive into that necessarily now. But then trying to figure out, okay, once you've got a customer, what are you going to do with them? Because Google and Facebook, they're a marketing channel and you're going to have to give some or all of that initial order margin to the platform to get the customer. And that allows you to compete and capture more market share, but if that margin is going to the platform, it's not going to you, the business owner or marketing teams future budgets. So you've got to do lifetime value, figure out what you're going to be doing to bring them back. So many times small businesses are thinking about, I've got to get customers, I've got to get customers, so I've got a market. Okay, good, you do have to do that, but you can't keep trying to do that without focusing on the customers you do have. What happened to the customers from last month, what are you doing with them? If you're not emailing them, if you don't have a loyalty program, you're essentially wasting all of this effort that you're doing to successfully bring new customers into the brand. And so that's where I see most struggles, because then they'll just be like, "Oh, Google was terrible. It took all my profit and then I had nothing." Jon: Well, we've talked about this several times on the show, of understanding that it's okay on that first sale to break even, and your customer acquisition costs might be high on that first sale, but you have to have a longer term game plan in place. Is it a subscription type product that you're going to use, if you have a consumable, is it something where you're able to continue to market to them afterwards, but you're doing it in a way that is going to continue to drive down the customer acquisition, but up the lifetime value over time? That definitely makes a lot of sense. So, okay, we've heard a lot of disadvantages to being small here today, but there's still a fact that most brands are going to be in that small budget. What are the advantages, what's the positive side, the glass half full here, what's the advantages to being smaller advertisers? Ryan: Yep. There's no secret that having more money can have more advantages in advertising, I mean, that's just basic marketing 101. But what I've seen through a lot of small businesses and having my own that compete against much larger brands, is you inherently have more flexibility. In fact, we were just laughing before we got on and started recording, about politics in larger companies, having all these things that you have to wade through to get things approved, or to do things, where you can't move quickly into new markets, because there's all these layers of approval. Small businesses, hopefully don't have that problem. And it's like, if you see an opportunity, you can just go do it and there's not a lot of people that have to sign off on. It's like, no, I'm going to go capitalize on that change in the market or that area that hasn't been attacked by larger brands. And so that can be a huge advantage, but I still think a lot of small businesses don't think of it that way and look at it, hey, I can afford to make mistakes and learn from them very, very quickly and pivot and adjust. And I can test new products on my site, I can test things on my site as a small business that I don't have to go to a web dev team. I can make quick little changes on my Shopify site to say, "Hey, let's see if this works or not. Let's run it for a week and if it doesn't work, flip it back." So much opportunity to test and so few small businesses actually taking advantage of that. I mean, I can't say the number of times that we've tested small things, even on Joyful Dirt, as we're moving very quickly and say, "Hey, let's test this or test this." That many of them work. I mean, we've got a really smart team that can come up with really cool ideas to test. For example, this month we did a black history month label, so we just, "Hey, let's just do a small run of a few hundred labels and see what happens." And larger brands can't in mid January, decide to do a label run for a specific event and try to get it to work. We're like, "Yeah, let's just see if it works. And so based on the success, we're going to do this multiple times throughout the year for different events and just have custom labels. Jon: That's a great idea. Ryan: Because we can. Jon: I believe this is called the innovator's dilemma. So when you're at a large corporation, you as an individual can come to the table and say, "I want to do custom labels for this month, starting in two weeks." But you have so much red tape to get through that you can actually affect the change that you want to affect. So that's a definite competitive advantage for a small brand, I can completely understand how that would work in their advantage. So that's great. Is there any other advantages that we should be thinking about? Ryan: I think being smaller also forces you to pay attention to details, that larger brands don't have to. We have a lot of large clients that focus on such macro level numbers, 35,000 foot layer of saying, "Hey, what's our data? How much should we spend? What is this?" And there's not the deep dive on, "Okay, how can I squeeze this little bit more out of this product?" It exists on a few large brands, but generally it doesn't matter to them on the small little minutia. And I think smaller brands, really have an opportunity because there is less data to sift through, they can quickly see where markets may be changing or evolving, that larger brands aren't going to catch till later. So you have to be willing to be aggressive and move quick when you see them, but you might see, even on Amazon, this is a massive thing with one of our clients where there's a couple really big players in vital wheat gluten, for example, on Amazon and the volume of sales on baking products on Amazon, is astronomical, I had zero clue until we started working with this company. Jon: Yeah, would not have suggested or thought that. Ryan: No, I'm like, "Vital wheat gluten," that's a very specific product for a very specific niche of people. Jon: Baking in general on Amazon, you would think there's no way. Ryan: It blew me away. But because the volume is so high, everybody selling FBA can only send in, because vital wheat gluten comes in, it's heavy and it comes in five pound bags or two pound bags, so it takes up enough shelf volume that you can't get 50,000 units in there at a time. And because you're usually co-packing, you're getting pallets delivered, and once it's down, you can't all of a sudden like, I'm just going to send 10 units today to take care of the sales. It's massive in and out of stocks all over the place. And so smaller advertisers could leverage that by saying, "All right, if I have my own fulfillment house, I can always keep a seller central product in stock on Amazon. Even if my FBA stock goes out," and you can play a lot of games and figure out what part of the country is or is not working. But that type of flexibility as a small brand, can pay huge dividends just by being aware of some of the struggles of your larger competitors. If your larger competitor has a disgusting amount of aging inventory, they've got problems probably floating the next purchase. Whereas you may not have that problem as a small advertiser, and you can even use drop shipping through one of the partners that could help you. So I think small companies have some significant advantages and I enjoy that part because it is more exciting to grow a smaller brand to take on a larger one. I do it myself, I add to this one. Jon: You'd love to take down the big guy. Ryan: IT do. Jon: Who doesn't? I mean, if you're in business, you're a competitor, just the way it is. Ryan: Oh yeah. And I love competing. And so it's fun as smaller business, but it does take a mentality that you are going to scrap and do everything you can to make it work. And when you come in with that mentality, I think it's very difficult to fail on Google ads or Facebook ads, because you're not accepting that it's not going to work. You see the data, you know people are spending money in your industry and they may not all be making money, but there's consistent effort there. And you just have to get to the point where you can wade through it and make it work because it will. Jon: Well on that note, any parting thoughts on this? I feel like I'm sufficiently equipped if I were a small brand advertising. You're giving me some renewed hope, that's for sure, that my $1,000 per day or per month, excuse me, would actually go someplace. Ryan: Yeah. The only thing I will say is that I do believe quality help will go a long way. You can be a small advertiser as a business owner and spend $1,000 if you learn and you're quick enough at adjusting and pivoting and looking at data, you're going to learn how to do it, but it might take you six, seven, eight months to get the point where you could have started at that point with an expert. And so it's at least worth interviewing a couple of agencies to see what it is they could do to help you if you bring experts on to manage that $1,000 spend. Yes, you're going to have to pay an agency extra cost, but can they get you moving towards your target at a quicker rate? I think often they can, but even if you're going to do it yourself, at least talk to somebody else that really knows what they're doing to see what the advantages could be. Jon: Well, and it could be huge too, if you get a higher return on that ad spend, that margin difference, they pay for themselves. It's like working with a great CPA, they're going to get you a bigger refund than if you did it yourself. So that covers their fees and hopefully more. Ryan: For sure. Jon: All right Ryan, well, thank you for your expertise on this. I know you guys work with thousands. Every time I talk to you, it's another thousand. So I'll just say thousands and thousands of clients at Logical Position, and a lot of those are smaller ones and you guys have learned a lot from that. So thank you for sharing all of the expertise you've learned. Ryan: Oh yeah. Thank you, Jon. I appreciate the time. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert, with Jon McDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com.

It seems most brands are using email popups on their website. Today Jon dismantles this practice with passion, explaining why they're bad for everyone, and offering better alternatives. TRANSCRIPT: Ryan: Jon, we've spoke together quite a few times around the country, and then recently just around the internet, since we can't leave our houses. And almost every time we talk, you ruffle quite a few feathers when you're answering questions about email pop-ups. It seems that most retailers and brands out there on their websites, they are absolutely in love with their email pop-up campaign, they think it can do no wrong. And I personally don't like them because they're just annoying and I close them immediately because I'm trying to look at something else. And, but you're distaste, some may say hate, goes a little bit deeper within this space, but so many, again, so many brands are using these. It's just making me crazy. So, I want to talk about these and get your opinion, the backend and the numbers that are guiding your distaste for these. But even to start with, what do you think is pushing this trend and what data are these merchants seeing that's causing these email pop-ups for discounts or anything just to become the norm? If you don't have it, you're weird almost at this point. Jon: Brands, what they're doing is they see another successful brand they look up to have email popups and they say, "It must be working for them. We need to do this as well." It goes in line with all the little Shopify apps that are out there that just spread like wildfire overnight, and then they'd disappear just as quickly once everybody realizes they don't actually move the needle, but they saw their competitor trying it out, so they thought they showed as well. Tons of examples of that. I think that's generally what happens here, first of all. Second of all, the brands see that email is their highest revenue channel, most likely. And so, they say every time I send an email, it's like printing money. So I should collect more emails. And that sometimes even comes down from the executive level, down to that marketing manager who is needing to implement that, whether they think it's right or not. And third, I think what happens is that brands look at a success metric of how many people do we have on our email list. And they see these pop-ups collect email addresses. And so, they assume they are working. And I guess the goal that they usually have is just to collect email addresses at all costs, right? And they're thinking, "If I get someone on my email list, I can then continue to market to them and the rest will fall into line." And that just is a huge problem. It's, to me, it's the wrong way to be thinking about it. And after optimizing sites for 11 years, statistically, it's not accurate. Ryan: Being an e-commerce brand myself, I know that if my email list goes from 10,000 to 20,000, I'm probably making more money from email. So, where are brands missing the logic behind these pop-ups and not equating to larger email database equals more revenue from emails every time I send one? Jon: Yeah. I think, I don't have an issue with collecting email addresses. As I said, it should be, and looking at 10 decades of content and data around emails, it definitely can be your highest revenue channel. The problem I have with is the method of collecting, right? So, let's just start with that. I mean, we could, there's lots of directions, we'll, I'm sure we'll go today about the method of doing it around discounts and everything else, but let's just talk about the pop-up form in itself. And what I mean by that is just there are multiple ways to collect email addresses. You can start with those who have ordered and how you have the actual customer contact information that you own, right? If you doing an owned to sale, as opposed to something like an Amazon, then you have that information, people you can remarket to and continue to sell to. However, if you just put a pop-up on your site versus maybe even baking a form into the page, right? Where customers who are actually interested, will scroll down to your footer and they'll enter their information because they're super interested. Right? I would almost encourage anyone listening to this to set a separate form up in your footer and tag people who fill that form out as higher intent, because they actually are interested in what you had to say. Now, the problem with a pop-up, let's just talk about straight up pop up, not an exit intent, right? Ryan: So, you're categorizing your email pops up into different buckets? Jon: Yes. Yes. There's different types. And I think that's important here because the one that I want to eliminate from the internet is just the pop-up. As soon as I come to a site, or maybe as soon as I start scrolling or even the timed ones that come up within a couple of seconds of loading the page, those are the ones I want to eliminate. Now, exit intent. Let's put that in a different category. I'm not as opposed to those. But what I'm talking about here is the disruption to the consumer experience, the interruption factor as well. Think of your site like a retail store. Now I know your wife has a retail store, right? If I walk into her store and she jumped out at me and said, "Here's a clipboard, give me your email address." I'm going to probably have a negative reaction to that. Right? Ryan: At least she's cute. That does help. Jon: Well, Hey. Ryan: Popups, aren't as cute. Jon: Hey, you know what I mean? You could make, you could put a nice looking picture on a pop-up, but that still doesn't change the fact that I'm there because I have a problem that I'm looking to solve. And I'm at the website because I think that their product or service can solve my pain or need. And all of a sudden now, before I know anything about the brand, something led me there, was it I clicked on an ad or a Google search or someone told me about it, so I have idea that they can help me solve my pain or need. But then all of a sudden I just get there, I still don't know about the value proposition of the brand, I don't know much about their products yet, but then I'm getting hit up right away being asked to give them information. And I think that that's just disruptive and I can promise you every test we've run where we've eliminated that pop-up conversion rates have gone up on the site and sales and revenue. Now yes, you will collect less email addresses. But I argue that's not a bad thing in this case, with this type of pop-up. And the reason is a couple of faults. So, first of all, the email addresses you're going to collect out of those pop-ups are going to be very, I would argue they're not going to be very effective, right? Because you're getting a consumer who is entering their email address into that pop-up specifically to get rid of the pop-up in a lot of cases, because they... This goes into more things like negative intent shaming, because maybe in that popup, it's a pretty common trend now for a company to say something like, "No, I don't like discounts and offers." Ryan: Gosh, I hate that. I had that happen a couple of days ago. And I was like, "Of course I like discounts. I'm not an idiot, but I just don't like you telling me that I don't like discounts." Jon: Right. You're you're hurting the brand, right? And you're hurting your customer experience and that's damaged that you now have to repair. So, within the first five seconds of getting into the website, you're already have dug yourself a hole you have to get out. Ryan: Yeah. And I think brands are getting kind of like, "Ooh, we're kind of that little unique, give it to the man brand. And we're going to use that humor." [crosstalk 00:07:34] That doesn't necessarily come through because I actually don't know you yet. And maybe that's my first... I don't know that that's the type of brand you are. I was looking for a pair of board shorts. And now all of a sudden you're telling me I'm an idiot before I even know that you're, that's the voice of your brand. Jon: Exactly. Okay. This is another great example of real world for this, right? Popups are just like those people who canvas on the street corner, who come up and you're just trying to walk by and get to your next location, right? You're trying to get some job done in your life, going to the coffee shop or whatever it might be, you have a meeting you're walking to. And Greenpeace, not just to pick on Greenpeace, but they're out all over in Portland. They run up to you with a clipboard and they say, "Hi, can we chat for a minute?" And it's like, "No, I'm trying to get something done. This is not a good time for me." And then they follow you, "Well, did you know that this is happening with the environment? And this is happening." And it's like, "Yeah. You know what? That might still be important to me, but now's not a good time." And they're like, "That's fine. Just give me your contact information. We'll follow up with you." And it's like, "No, no, no. I don't know who you are." Right? I don't want to just give some random person my contact information. And then what are you doing with that contact information? So, I think the problem is, is that marketers stop having empathy for what the consumer is going through on the other side of the screen, and they just feel like it's okay because they can't see that person to do these really poor consumer experience activities on their site. And that's what I try to fight against with this. And unfortunately pop-ups is the worst example of this on the internet. And so, that's why I ended up fighting against it. Ryan: Oh yeah. And it's people like me that are probably helping give them bad numbers since my computer saves the email address na@na.com for all of my form fills that I don't want them to email me on and I'm like, "Yeah. Yeah, here you go. Have that." Jon: Well, that's exactly it. So, now let's talk about the data that a marketer's going to get back out of this pop-up, right. So, a new site pop-up, you just came to this, a new visitor pop-up I should say. I get a form. Sometimes it just says, "Give me your info and you can stay up to date on the latest product releases, et cetera." So maybe they're not really dangling a carrot there. Right? I can't figure out how to close it. Maybe there's no close button and it takes over the entire screen and it's really annoying. So what happens? You put in an email address that like na@na.com, right? So now the brand has pretty muddy CRM, right? Their customer data, their marketing data is pretty horrible. Now what's going to happen there is, they're going to start using all that data. Some will clean it, but I guarantee you most don't based on our experience and what happens is they're going to use those email addresses that are uncleaned. They're going to start sending them through their email platform. And then they're going to get a ton of bounces, a ton of spam complaints for those who might be okay, it might be good, or they're going to get a bunch of generic Gmails that never get opened. And I promise you one thing that's happening with your emails and large providers like Gmail, MSN, et cetera, is they're tracking when you send an email out to a thousand people, Gmail knows that at that same email is going out to a thousand people on their platform, and they're looking to see how many people are opening and clicking on that. And they're tracking that data to make sure that spam doesn't get through. And if nobody's opening it, nobody's clicking it, it's more likely to end up in that dreaded promotions folder or just directly into spam. [crosstalk 00:11:07]. And that's not even without people who are actually seeing that email and marking it as spam, which is only going to hurt your deliverability. So, over time what's happening is the quality of your email list is going way down only because of how you collected that as emails and the methodology you went through. And so, what happens then is you've turned what should be your highest revenue generating channel into something that is no longer producing at the level it used to, even though you have more email addresses on it. Ryan: Got it. Okay. That makes a lot of sense there. And you can kind of send yourself in a downward spiral. But I can also see the logic behind getting to that point. If logic states that me as a brand or a website, I'm willing to break even on my first order from Google ads when I'm buying traffic to my site, and then if I don't have an email up and I put it on, I'm like, "Oh, 10% discount. That's only going to increase people's conversion rates because I'm giving 10% off. But then these are people that maybe weren't going to buy, but now are because people that were going to buy, maybe they would anyway without the discount." So, I understand that logic to a degree, but how do you see that logic break down when somebody actually starts going through with that execution? Jon: Well, so now we're combining two negatives. We're taking an email pop-up that's disruptive and we're making it a discount. Now what's happening is same thing. As you said earlier, I just got to the brand, I don't know anything about the brand or their value proposition, et cetera, but now you want my contact information, and also you're already giving me a discount. Now, why are you offering a discount to somebody who just got to your site? They haven't exhibited any signs of intent to buy just yet, other than showing up at your door and you're giving up precious margin and you're creating a discount brand right away. Where it's the first thing I know about this brand is, they're going to give me a 10% off for giving me an email address. It's like, "Well, okay." And what's going to happen here is a couple of things. One is, you're creating a discount customer who sees your brand as a discount brand forever, just because that's the first impression they have. And the problem with this is you've done it just to collect an email address. Well guess what? What's going to happen now is that person's going to put in their junk email address again, the one they use just for discounts and pop-ups, right? Ryan: Everybody's got one of those. Jon: Exactly. We all use Gmail for that, probably. Right. So, then what happens from there? Well, perhaps they might open the email, maybe not, more likely not. They just wanted that discount code. And the worst offenders in these popups are the ones that, where they collect the email address without any verification, they don't email you the discount code. They just show it in the box in the pop-up. So, they just give it to you right away. Well, then that's even worse because you're putting in whatever email address you want and you're still going to get the discount. The other thing here is that, now every time I come back to buy, I'm going to want that discount. And I know I don't need to pay retail. I know that you're going to offer 10%. So, what am I going to do? I'm going to open your website in incognito, and I'm going to give you another fake email address just to get another discount code or another junk email address, or I'm going to do that Gmail trick, where you can put a plus sign and then anything you want after the plus sign. So, it's like Jon+, whatever I want @gmail.com and it ignores anything with the plus sign and after that. Ryan: That I did not know. Jon: So, you can create [crosstalk 00:14:31] a million email addresses just out of your one Gmail address. And most email platforms allow you to use a plus sign because it's a valid email character. And so, it's really interesting when we start working with brands, one of the first things we do when they put up a fight about removing their pop-ups, or at least running a test around it, is we go into their email database and check for the plus sign and see how many emails have a plus sign in it. And most of it it's like, plus spam is what people put, right? Or they'll even get more tricky. People who are really, want to know if you're selling their email address, or if you're giving it away or if you're abusing them and they do plus in the brand name. And then it's like if you sell that email address or share with a partner, do anything else, they now know where that came from, and they're even more upset with you when that happens. So, I think it's really important here that people, brands really need to think about not discounting because you're basically taking what is a bad consumer experience and you're making that a bad experience for your brand too. And you're just doing that to collect an email address. And now you've created a discount customer right up front, who's forever going to look at your brand as a discount brand. And that's a really hard hole to dig out of in the future. Ryan: Well, and I think a lot of brands don't give consumers enough credit, and I think people pick it up pretty quick, where they know the strategies to try to get discounts. Especially people like me that just because I can, I'm not going to give up 10% of my money to a brand just because I like them. If I can keep 10% in my pocket, I will, even if I can afford the full price, which generally is the case, if I'm shopping for it. And so, my wife knows that I'm the cheap one in the relationship. And if she's going to go buy something, she knows that if she can tell me she bought something, but got a discount, and I'm like, I'm much less likely to put up a fight about that. And so she knows the strategy. It's like, "Okay, all I need to do on my computer is start to move my cursor towards the navigation bar and boom, exit intent pop up." Or she even tells me now, she'll just, if she's interested in something, but it's not a need, it's a more of a want, she'll go put things in shopping carts, and then just wait a few days. She's like, "I don't need it right now. They're not going to run out of inventory. I'm going to go set up a shopping cart, I don't care. See if they sent me a discount." [crosstalk 00:17:29]. Almost all of them do. I mean, just people figure it out. It's not complicated. Marketers, I think sometimes think too much of themselves like, "Oh, we're going to do this. And we're going to trick all these people into spending so much money with us." And I'm like, "Nah." Jon: Well, I think that's exactly where having empathy for the consumer really comes in, right? And just saying, "If you, if this is happening to you, what's the experience you want to have?" And I think this goes back to a whole nother episode we can record on discounting and why that's a challenge. I mean, we just did, you and I just did a webinar yesterday and a big portion of that was about discounting with one of our partners. And I thought it was really interesting because so many brands are discounting. And when you think about this, you could be doing so many things that are and offer and not a straight percentage or dollar off discount. And I'm okay with doing an offer in an email. And there's a lot of other ways to collect email addresses that tie in with offers, right? I mean, you could do "Coming soon, get on the list to be first notified," and that's providing value for an email address that they wouldn't get unless they gave you the email address. But it's also valuable to them. You could do, something where it's like, "Hey, if you sign up for our email list in checkout, you get free shipping." Right? So, you're giving some value. It's not a straight dollar or percentage off discount. You're doing an offer and there's scarcity. You could say, "Hey, these products sell out. It's sold out right now. If you sign up for this list, you'll be notified." And we have a brand we work with, a really high end camping brand, that a lot of their products, they sell out before they've even landed in the United States for manufacturing, where they just have a running list on their product detail pages that say, "Hey, this product is sold out. We have a new product coming in soon, get on the list, we'll notify you. And it will be presale before it goes up on the site." Now there's a lot of value to a consumer who wants a product and is interested in that and giving their email address for that purpose. And it's a much better way to collect an email address over offering a discount. So, now they're selling these products before they've even hit the site. They're selling them at 100% margin or, well, not 100% margin, but without draining their margin by discount, right? Ryan: Or marketing. Jon: Or marketing costs. [crosstalk 00:19:54]. Yeah. What? Fractions of a penny to send that email. So, I think it's really interesting that brands immediately go to this discount right upfront and present that discount through such a disruptive manner that they have to use an email pop-up. Ryan: I think it's just, I mean, it's the easy button that they're thinking about. They're not taking that next step and actually having conversations with people, strategizing what could my options be? Because even me, having you as a friend and a business partner and various things, I come to you and I'm like, "Okay, Jon, I know you don't like discounts, but I know that there's value in somehow doing something like that, that maybe is not a discount, that keeps me from being a discount brand." And you've got phenomenal ideas for ... Now, we should probably do one, a thing on that. But you don't have to give a discount to give a discount type thing, which is a difficult thing. You have to really think through it. Jon: Right. Yeah. And you got to be creative with the offer, right? And sometimes people, like you said, it's the easy button. There's so many Shopify apps, for instance, that do these pop-ups and do discounts. Then there's apps that are really cheap to free that will do customized discount posts for email address exchange, stuff like that. It blows my mind because they see other brands using them and they think it must work for them, so we're going to do it too. Or they just, they think discounting is the only way. And I really argued that as soon as you get into discounting, it is impossible. It's like a drug, a really bad drug. It's really hard to get off of that. You got to wean yourself off of it because now everybody is expecting and they're not going to pay retail price. I mean, we talk about how your wife sends you to Michael's to pick up stuff on the way home. And you know that she's going to have a 50% off coupon, no matter what. And if she didn't, for whatever reason, she couldn't find one right then, or whatever, you just ask the person at the register when you're checking out, like, "Hey, what's that? What's the coupon that went out in the mail last week? Do you have it?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, it's right here. Here you go." And they just scan it [crosstalk 00:21:55]. Ryan: Yeah. That actually happened a couple weeks ago. [crosstalk 00:00:21:58]. I was, I got in line, she was like, "I couldn't find my code. Can you just pull one up on your phone and do a search?" I'm like, "Okay, yeah. I'll figure it out." Jon: Exactly. So, they're a discount brand and you go to them because they're a discount brand. There's nothing wrong with that if that's how they want to do it. But I would argue that, they're never getting out of that, right? They're just going to have to slash all their prices if they want to stop doing discounts. Then what promo or offer can you run because you've got razor thin margins at that point? Ryan: Yep. No. And I think one of the points you hit on too, is part of that other bucket of email popups, which you don't hate, those exit intent things. And this one works phenomenally well, for me at least, with one of the clients you've worked with in the past is Nike. One of the shoe companies you're based in Oregon. And I have an affinity for Jordan 4's. I'm not a sneaker head, but that's the one shoe that I grew up always wanting and I couldn't get them because didn't have enough money for them when I was a kid. But now I can. And so, I do keep up on the releases. And so, in this case, I gave Nike all my information to avoid the FOMO, the fear of missing out scenario. And I went to Nike site today just to see what they were doing, saying, "Okay, Jon worked with them. Did they get the message when he was working with them?" And they use only exit intent, no discount. Do you ever advocate for discount at... Well, I already know the answer. But exit intent, how should brands be looking at that? Is there anything besides FOMO or anything to do besides offering a discount that you've seen be successful? Jon: Well, I think that there's a lot of options that you can do in these pop-ups. But specifically in exit intent, this is where it's one of those things that you should really be looking at segmenting your audience and tailoring the message with those pop-ups. So, for you, let's think about the journey you just mentioned you went through. You were, you love Jordan 4's and you were looking at those on the site and they popped up with an exit intent and you were like, "Yeah, sure. I'll do that because I want to be the first to know when new ones are released." There's value there for you in that, right? And they knew, this is a collector shoe, if you will. And most of the people, you claim you're not a sneaker-head, but let's be honest, you probably are if you're into Jordan 4's, right? Ryan: Probably. Jon: And so, the reality here is they know that. That people who are looking at this shoe aren't discount motivated because for them it's all about having the Jordan 4, that they don't need the discount. They could sell those out, no problem without ever discounting them. And in fact, you and I living in Portland, Oregon, we're blessed that we get to go to the Nike employee store occasionally. And whether we're working with them or, somebody who does work with them is able to share a pass with us occasionally. And I can tell you that they have some Jordan's there, but it's not their top sellers. I say that because at the employee store, there's a large discount when you shop there because you get employee pricing, but they don't have their top sellers, usually, in the collectible ones, like Jordan's et cetera there, because they don't need to discount them. If you want them, you're going to just go up on the site and buy it at retail. So, I think that too many brands skip right away to the discount when there's other value adds you could provide. And that's where, again, you got to do a little bit of thinking on that. It can't just be the easy button. Ryan: Okay. So, pop-ups, avoid coming to the site pop-ups. Exit intent could be worth it, but you make sure you're adding some value to that, that customer that causes them to want to give you a real email address and not necessarily just throw a discount out. So, all companies want more emails. Do you have any strategies that you've seen be successful in your experience over the past decade in the e-comm world for brands to get more emails? Jon: Sure. I think there are some great ways to do, I mentioned earlier, some segmenting. So, let's say you run somebody in to your site from a Google ad that has a specific message, your value prop in it, aligning that with the message that you share for an email signup, right? So, maybe they're searching for a specific item and they get to your site and it's out of stock, well, there you go, now you should do not a stock email collection. I think that the biggest mistakes I see around email forms are that they're missing some key information. The first is you really need to set expectations on this email form. What does that mean? Well, you need to tell people what they're signing up for and how often they're going to hear from you. Pretty simple. But most brands say stuff like, "Sign up for updates." It's like, "Why do I care about updates from your brand?" Right? "I don't need more updates." Nobody needs updates. But if you me, I'll be the first to know when Jordan 4's are released, I'm in, right? That's what I'm here for. That's what I want to know. So, it's all about saying, "Okay. Well, how often are you going to hear from me?" Well, maybe it's, "I'll email you once a month." Okay. I'm okay with that. If you say, "I'm going to email you every week," I have to think twice about it, but if I really am into your brand, maybe I'm okay with that. Or maybe it's where we have special product bundles that are only for email subscribers, "Sign up and you can learn about our bundles, exclusives." Right? Things of that sort, that aren't straight up discounts. Ryan: Almost like a merging some of this email acquisition with your loyalty program. Jon: 100%. That is a great way to build email is through loyalty. It's through having, whether you want to do something as complicated as a point system, or just as simple as saying, if you're on an email address, you will get access to things that people who aren't on the email address. Ryan: And people are willing to give you more information, generally, when you're providing value outside of discount. For example, Nike, I give them my birthday. No other company gets my birthday. [crosstalk 00:27:51]. But they're telling me I'm going to get a special reward on my birthday. And I'm like, "Cool." I like Nike. They do have some trust. They built a brand that says, "I can trust them with my data already," just because I have an affinity for them and I've been wearing Nike's for, geez, 30 years. So, there is some of that that maybe not every brand is going to be able to get to, but you can probably do some pretty solid segmentation in your customer database if you had everybody's birthday. Like, Hey, this person's 20, this person's 40, they probably need different messaging. They probably have different interests, different disposable income level. Jon: Yeah. Yeah. The 20 year old is aspiring to get the Jordan's. The Ryan Garrow age folks are really out there to [crosstalk 00:28:35]. Ryan: 22. 22. Jon: Okay. Okay. If you say so. And so I think it's, now you can afford the $300 pair of Jordan's and you're excited to buy them because you've earned that right over all these years of hard work, right? And so, or those two years of hard work, if you will. But I think it's one of those things where most brands aren't even segmenting. They're just doing that really clear scatter shot, hoping to collect email addresses, just to build their list. And I just, again, that's the wrong philosophy, whole-heartedly, full stop. Popups are not the way to do that. And I just, it pains me when I see brands do that. Part of me is because our mission at The Good is, I say all the time is just to remove all the bad online experiences until only the good ones remain. And email popups are such a bad online experience. I'm on a crusade to eliminate those. And part of that is to help brands understand what damage they're doing with these initial email pop-ups. And it's true, I don't hate them just because they get in my way as a consumer, I hate them because of what they do to the brand over time. And the experience that you're putting consumers through is really negatively affecting the brand and the brand perception. And then most brands are applying a discount on top of that, so they're kind of adding fuel to that fire of just negativity and it's really just going to hurt them. Ryan: And the one thing I'll leave with would be the best emails you can get are from people that have purchased from you. So, if you just got more aggressive on getting more customers through marketing or driving people to the site, those people in your email database are going to be infinitely more valuable than anybody that just wants a coupon code or signs up just to have you go away or an email pop-up. So, I would challenge a lot of brands just to say, if you're comfortable giving an additional 10% discount, so you're taking 10% off your top line for somebody, why don't you just get 10% more aggressive on your marketing and get that customer to actually buy something and get more of them and increase your market share because that's the type of emails in my database that I'm going to be in love with. Jon: Yeah. I mean, you mentioned right up off the top that you're happy to spend your initial margin on that first purchase to acquire the customer through Google ads or whatever advertising you would do to get them to the site, so that you can continue to market to them and go after that customer lifetime value. And that's the right way to approach this because that's sustainable. Where if you're just going to give a discount and someone's only going to purchase once, because they can't get that discount again, or maybe they just see you as a discount brand, then you're going to have a bigger issue. So, I'm all for paying to get people to purchase, but I'm not, I don't think you should do that through a discount upfront. Ryan: Yeah. Don't go the lazy way. If your marketing team or your agency is telling you, "Use discounts or we can't do our job." It's time to maybe look outside that. Jon: Yeah. Find a new marketing agency. People come to us all the time and they say, "Well, we've been doing optimization on our site." And I say, "Okay, great. Let's talk about what you've been doing." "Well, we put a pop-up on, we offer discounts and our conversion rates went up." I was like, "Well, yeah. You know what? Every house will sell at some price. Ask any realtor. And they'll just say, 'Well, we'll just keep reducing the price until it sells.'" And it's like, well, eventually you're going to sell it for less than you bought it for. And that's exactly what's going to happen with your brand too. Ryan: Oh, and didn't you, you have some stat around, you give a small discount, your conversion rate has to go up just some astronomical percent. What was that number? Jon: Yeah. Mackenzie did a bunch of research on this. They surveyed and did a bunch of research on the, it was like the top 1000 e-comm sites. And what they found was that for every 5% that you run a discount on, you have to acquire, it was like 19% in additional sales just to break even on that discount. Ryan: And most people are not only giving 5%. Jon: Right. It's way more than that [crosstalk 00:32:36]. Ryan: It's usually 10, 15, 20%. Jon: And so, you really have to think about this. Now for 5% discount, is that 5% discount going to get me greater than a 19% additional sales? Likely, that's not the case. And, in fact, the article that I read on that said, and I'll have to quote it, but it said "This rarely to never has ever happened." And I was like, "Okay. So, they said rarely, never, and ever in the same sentence." Ryan: Yeah. Having done this a decade, I can almost guarantee you that that has not happened. I mean, because you would just double that maybe for 10%, you have to get 38% increase in revenue for a 10% discount. There's no way. Jon: If, I mean, if that's how the math works out on that, then yeah, you're screwed if you start discounting at that rate in reality. Because yes, you've collected email addresses and markers will come back to me and say, "Jon, yeah, sure. That's if I only do it on that first sale, but now I'm going to have those customer in my database for a lifetime." And I'm like, "Yeah, but what are you going to have to do to get them continue to buy? You're going to have to give another 5% off and another 5% and another 5%. where do you get out of digging that hole? Right? How do you fill that hole so that you're getting your margin back and your customer lifetime value and your average order value keeps going up? How do you make that happen?" You're better off it doing an offer. And, yep, it may equate to 5% off, but in the mind of the consumer, you're giving them an offer, not a straight dollar or percentage off. And then you come back the next order and you're not having to fight on a discount, you can give them some other offer, perhaps if that's needed. So yeah, we should definitely do a whole show, Ryan, on discounting. I think that could be another way to share one of Jon's things he hates on the internet. Ryan: Yes. I think we for sure should do that. Man, there's so many, so many good things in this. Jon, thanks for the time. I appreciate it. And I come away learning lots of things, including just adding a plus sign to my emails now. [crosstalk 00:34:30]. I can track where I'm being sold. Jon: There you go. Well, I appreciate you bringing the topic up and helping me share one of my missions. So, thanks for doing that. Ryan: Thank you

We know that internet traffic doesn't operate in silos. No matter what method you are using to drive traffic and sales, there's always going to be a halo effect. Today Jon and Ryan chat about Google Shopping, but more specifically the effect it has on other channels. TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Hey, thanks for listening to Drive and Convert. Before we jump into this episode, just wanted to take a quick second and let you know that during this episode we had some recording issues and the audio quality is nowhere near where we would normally like to see it. But because the content was solid, we decided to keep it as is and get it out to you. Hopefully you can see through this less than perfect audio, but a big shout out to our editor, Josh, for helping make us sound pretty solid, despite all of the technical shortcomings. We do have some improvements in audio quality on the way, so thank you for listening and on to the show. Jon: Ryan, we know that internet traffic doesn't operate in silos. No matter what method you are using to drive traffic and sales, there's always going to be a halo effect. We've all heard this famous quote from 120 years ago, "Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted. The trouble is, I don't know which half." That is still true today, even with all of the attribution and digital advertising tracking we're able to do. But the good news is that with all of the data we have these days, it allows us to know that there is a halo effect and to know how much that halo effect is worth to each brand. I was recently checking out a presentation you gave [Aclavio 00:01:44] and you showed data for some real clients that blew my mind and I actually just found out one of them is a shared client of ours, which made me even more excited. Ryan: Yeah, maybe some of that's due to you. Jon: Hey, I'm not going to take credit for this, but the data was a comparison of revenue and performance before and after implementing Google Shopping. I'm talking 1800% increases in revenue in both of these cases. Tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars in newly found revenue. Now, it seems to me that Google Shopping itself didn't account for most of this revenue gain, but rather that it could be attributed to the halo effect of implementing Google Shopping correctly. Today I wanted to chat about Google Shopping, but more specifically the effect it has on other channels. Ryan: Oh, man. It is such a unique topic that doesn't get brought up enough. I'm exciting to really dive into this. I don't even necessarily know if halo effect is a technical term that anybody really uses. It's just kind of how we refer to it internally at Logical Position and what we're seeing. Jon: But I do think it makes sense though. You said halo effect originally when we started talking about the topic for today and I immediately got it. Here you are inventing another term, perhaps, that makes a lot of sense. Ryan, tell me. What is the benefit of understanding the halo effect of Google Shopping? Maybe we just start there. Ryan: As you're understanding conceptually, and most I think business owners, marketing teams understand that attribution paths generally look like bowls of spaghetti at this point in time, as people can really easily do research and understand what they want from a product as they're finding it and then coming back to business that they had maybe found it somewhere on. What I've learned, through the last decade plus in digital marketing and a lot of that in eCommerce, is that I'm weird in the eCommerce transaction space. I have a very linear conversion path. I see it. I click it. I buy it. Every company on the planet can track my conversion. It's just very simple. If I've bought from you, you know exactly how I found you. Maybe I don't do enough research or I do enough research before I actually go search for the product. I haven't done a lot of analysis on myself, but that's not normal. What's more normal is my wife buying something, where she'll do research over probably a week and a half and she's got a pretty low threshold for extensive research. If she's going to buy something for $25, she does a decent amount of research to make sure that that's the best deal. But she'll click on multiple shopping ads, multiple social ads, multiple things throughout the process as she goes back and forth between different sites to figure out where she should buy something. Through that process, what we've seen is that the Google Shopping click, for somebody that is more normal like my wife, is how people are originally going to find you, but it's not how they're, at the end of the day, going to buy from you. It's more of a discovery tool for a lot of people because Google is a research entity for most people in finding the product on eComm. They're very good at it. Google is just phenomenal at product discovery and helping people figure out what they need or want. Knowing that, most business owners still look at Google Shopping based on last click, because that's what Google Ads has set them up for. Google Ads tracking by default is last click. You can change it to be linear. You can change it to all these other things, which can make sense, but I don't necessarily think it's bad to be looking at that way, but I think you have to understand as a business owner or marketing team that it's doing other things and that attribution conversation... I've been in digital marketing for over a decade, just like you, and attribution just makes my brain hurt. Jon: Yeah, there's too many models. None of them are ever accurate. Ryan: Yeah. You conceptually know it's there, but you never really want to be like, "Let's really dive into attribution today." That has never come out of my mouth and probably never will. Jon: I'm pretty nerdy, but it's never come out of my mouth either. Ryan: Yeah. That just doesn't sound fun. No. No, not going to do it. The halo effect is something we've seen and it's an easy way to explain the fact that attribution is happening and we want to be aware of it and know it's there and that helps direct a lot of our goal setting, I think. Knowing that, from a very simple perspective, the more you spend in Google Shopping, the more the other channels on your site are going to increase even if you're not doing anything else to increase them. The easiest example, I think it happened in May of this year. We were in the middle of COVID and pretty strict lockdown at that time. This company is a B2B company and they came to me I think through a partner of ours and we were talking just general strategy and marketing, what were they trying to accomplish as a business. They sold on Amazon. They sold on Walmart. They sold on Ebay. They sold on their website, but it was very small. They didn't really care about the website much at all and they had an agency that had told them that buying on Google was the best place for them to be, which the Google Shopping actions. At that time it was I think they were the 12% mark, based on their product mix. Then, they had another agency tell them that, "Hey, your product makes us too big. You need to shrink it down because it'll never work with that many SKUs." So, they shrunk down their product mix on their website. All these things are coming together. Before they kind of have to look at their company now like a before LP and after LP because it was so dramatic, the change. Their website, in the month of April, did $16,000 in revenue and their buy on Google entity did $34,000. They combined did $50,000 in total revenue from Google and their website and they paid $4,000 for that buy on Google, $34,000. That was their total cost of doing that. By no means bad. There's not many business owners that would be like, "Ah, that's a bad idea. Don't take it." When I told them, I was like, "I think you're leaving a lot of money on the table," because we as an agency have done a lot of pretty advanced analysis on the buy on Google entity. When you run that, generally you're losing about 40% of the volume that you could be getting if you didn't use buy on Google. So, I just said, "It's probably worth a test. It's a very small piece of your business at this point. Let's just go. Give us three months. We'll go with Google Shopping instead of buy on Google and we'll see what happens. If I'm crazy and it's not more volume for you, you can very easily just flip the switch and go back to buy on Google." They thought, "Okay. That's a reasonable test for us. If the website evaporated tomorrow, our business doesn't materially change. So, let's try that." We decided to start May 1. Takes us a week or so to get campaigns up and running, but what happened in the month of May surprised even me, and I've seen lots of things in the digital marketing space. The first month, getting out of the gate, we weren't hyper aggressive. We were getting things in position. We spent a total of $2500 in Google Shopping for this business. They're a multi-million dollar business, so $2500 still wasn't a big number. The data in May, the site did $192,000 in revenue as a whole. That $2500 of spend was given attribution credit in Google Analytics of $115,000. So, they spent less, $1500 less, and they gained a 3X increase in revenue on their Google Shopping by moving from shopping actions to shopping on Google. Which is good and that return is not normal. Nobody should ever reach out to me and say, "I expect you to get that type of return." It would just be- Jon: Well, now that you say it, Ryan. Ryan: ... Yeah, it's out there in the public. Don't say that that's going to happen. It can happen, lightning can strike, but what was really surprising to them is they, on their organize traffic and analytics, they weren't doing any SEO by the way. Their organic traffic, their channel and analytics in the month of April did $10,000 of their $16,000 in revenue. In the month of May, again no SEO, that organize channel and analytics did $45,000. It was up 350%, from $10,000 to $45,000 with no SEO. That's an extreme example of that halo effect, where you spend more in Google Shopping. They find you. They didn't convert through that Google Shopping click, otherwise it would've gotten the attributed revenue and analytics. They came back and bought later, after doing research through your organic links and your organic rankings within Google. Same thing happened on direct traffic. They didn't do any other external marketing and their direct traffic went up 250%. Their email went from, I think, two or three clicks to having $4500 in revenue. Again, no changes in those things to justify that type of increase, but just starting to spend on Google Shopping. The numbers are cool. It's an extreme example that shows the value beyond just looking at the results in Google Analytics or even Google Ads, but just having that understanding that there is more going on. When I'm looking at my businesses... and I talk to business owners regularly and tell them that I am a fairly aggressive marketer, a fairly aggressive business owner, I want to win... I will spend to break even on Google Shopping all day long. It's not exciting for business owners to hear this from me because every business owner usually goes into business to make money and to have profit, but when somebody's looking for your product on Google Shopping and they haven't put another brand or competitor along with that product search, they're a free agent. That's going to go generally to the more aggressive marketer. If I have a competitor that is shooting for profit on Google Shopping and I can break even, I can be more aggressive on there. I can pay more per click than a competitor, so I can get that traffic. I can get that buyer to my site and I'm going to have a good product. Part of my model is I have to have repeat business and lifetime value, but even if I didn't, by spending more on Google Shopping and breaking even, I know about this halo effect and I know that I'm going to get profit from my organic rankings and my direct traffic will increase. So yeah, I may not see the profit from my spending $1,000 to get $2,000. That may not be profitable for many businesses, but understanding that there is profit coming is a pretty big light bulb for a lot of business owners. And a lot of agencies don't talk about this because it is a little more advanced and somebody that's only been in the space for six months to a year may not have understood that this is there. Jon: Well, and it's harder to track, right? Because you can't give a straight answer and just say you tell a client halo effect and they're like, "Well, I'm doing a lot of marketing things." So, any of those could've been the halo effect. Jon: Let me ask you this, what are some of the common challenges to understanding these halo effects? Obviously, you have to have the right data, right? And some attribution. But where do we go from there? Ryan: Step one is just knowing it's there. Okay. If we know it's happening, then I can go look for the data to help explain what the magnitude of it is. I kind of go back to GI Joe growing up, knowing is half the battle. Once you at least conceptually understand that it's going to be there, then we can start looking for examples of it. I keep my analytics investigations pretty simple. I'm by no means one of the experts at Logical Position. There are people that can make my brain hurt in attribution and analytics, so I like looking at the attribution tabs within analytics and seeing, okay, I want to know what is it looking like as far as last click and assisted conversions? I'll click into the attribution and assisted path portion of the conversions tab and I'll click on the top for Google Ads. Then, I want to see the campaign names and I want to filter for campaigns that are shopping. In Logical Position's structure, it's pretty easy. I can just put in the keyword shop and it'll find all the shopping campaigns. Then, I can easily sort for assisted conversions. I can sort for last click. So, people just have to basically understand analytics, by default... and probably 99% plus analytics accounts are going to be setup by the default stuff... it's last non-direct. If somebody clicks on a shopping ad and then comes back later that day, tomorrow, whenever, directly by typing the URL into the browser, that attribution or that credit for the sale is going to go to the channel that was right before that direct. You look in there and you can see, okay, if my shopping campaign did $10,000 in revenue that analytics is telling us it got credit for, it did this work to do this, as far as a last click attribution, you'll see right next to that what did that shopping campaign do for assisted conversions. It's basically telling me, as a business owner, if that shopping campaign wasn't there, if I didn't spend that money, I would for sure lose the $10,000 that it drove in analytics. That would just not be there probably. I can't say for sure, but the majority of that would just evaporate. But what you'll see in assisted is often in shopping, that assisted conversion number is much bigger. It assists on a lot more sales than it closes. That's just the patterns of people shopping and doing more research and making it so easy to click into a site, see what it is, go back to Google, search for another site, see what they're doing. It's very easy. People are using tabs a lot, especially me. I'm a tab-a-holic. I have multiple tabs open as I'm researching. But that assisted conversion, that's where it's just pushing the process forward and something else in analytics is getting credit. So, if you take away that shopping campaign, there's a lot of other revenue that's going to be impacted. Will 100% of that assisted conversion revenue go away? Probably not. But there's no reason you'd want to take that away and you want to keep emphasizing it. By spending more in shopping, there's a lot more of this assisted conversion revenue coming, which is where you're seeing the evidence of this halo effect in the process. Then, you can also do... I like looking at the conversion paths. There is a conversion path report in Analytics and I like going by source medium so I can see if it's Google Ads. You can even get into some of the campaigns and finding out where the campaigns are in the process. This is more advanced, so a lot of people probably aren't ever doing this, but you can download it into Excel and pivot against it and you can actually see which channels is it helping the most, what's getting the credit often, is it coming back through organic from the shopping campaign, is it coming back from an email. Maybe abandoned cart emails are a big deal for your brand. You can see a lot of that and who's getting credit in Analytics. Jon: This is my favorite view in Analytics, by the way, because it really tells you were people are dropping off in the funnel, how they came in. It really shows you a great view of what are the different challenge points along the way, based on where people came from. Ryan: Oh, yeah. When you're looking at it, where are you seeing for most businesses? What channel's often falling off that you're able to help with or that you're able to direct them to and like, "Hey, they seem to be breaking right here." Jon: Usually what we see is when an ad campaign is setting some type of expectations that aren't being met on the site, people then start clicking around a little bit. Maybe they end up on a product detail page eventually that doesn't align with that expectation the ad set. So, the messaging there is usually the case, where the alignment is off between the two. But also, it's just really helpful to understand, from a purely conversion standpoint, where people are leaving the funnel who maybe in come in via organic or non-attributable methods. The whole point there is just what's causing people to bounce at that particular page or point in the process? Ryan: Yeah, and if you can minimize that friction, then conversions go up. Jon: Exactly. Ryan: And Jon looks even smarter. Dang it. Jon: Well, it's easy when you drive good traffic and you have all these halo effects for me to solve the problems and move forward from there. This has been great, Ryan. Anything else that you wanted to touch on on this that we haven't yet today? Ryan: I just think it's important, if you're going to get more aggressive in shopping, and you also are doing SEO, you have to understand that, okay, the SEO work is probably doing good, but if there's a huge jump it's probably not necessarily 100% attributable to the SEO work being done. That's where this does get really messy. You don't want to stop doing SEO because you're doing shopping stuff, but understand that there's going to be a bump and you're going to enjoy that, but there's a lot of things probably contributing to that. Just be aware that there may be some more analysis needed, but also don't get analysis paralysis. Just understand there's a lot of good things happening. You'll find getting aggressive in Google Shopping, knowing that there are some side benefits that you're getting, that even if you can't put a number on it you know it's going up. So, breaking even on Google Shopping on non-brand searches is never a bad thing if you have some lifetime value and you just want to get market share and be more aggressive than your competitors. Because there's very few companies out there that are willing to consistently break even on some of that traffic. And a lot of companies aren't breaking out brand and non-brand shopping, which still surprises me that companies aren't wanting to do that. If you've got a campaign that is just general shopping and if you can see search queries so that you're not using a smart shopping campaign, you should go in there and see how much of your shopping revenue is actually people looking for your brand. I think too few business owners look at that. If you're getting more of your shopping revenue from brand and that's what's causing the results that you're seeing that are exciting you, you've already done the work for those companies and for those searches. You've got the brand you've built up. You need to separate that goal off on its own and you're not going to be able to set a goal specifically around what do you want to get for your brand search, as far as a return. It's going to fluctuate with things that you can't control from a Google Ads perspective. Google search results pages being tested and changed, competitors coming in and out of the market place. The brand is just going to fluctuate. It's going to be profitable, unless you have an odd brand name that is more like a Kleenex, when people just search for the product you come up because of the way your brand is named. You can be assured that your brand search is going to be profitable. Put them in their own shopping bucket and in the non-brand is really where you set your goal. That's where you decide, hey these people don't know me yet. They're going to find me. If I'm breaking even, if you're in certain competitive industries on Google, baskets, there's a lot of money to be lost on that first order because lifetime value is so high. So, sometimes you may lose money on that first order on non-brand searches, but unless you're tracking that data you won't necessarily know what you could or should be losing to get that customer, what you could be shooting for to get market share. That segmenting is important when you are pushing in shopping and you're doing that because of some of the halo effect. Jon: Yeah. If there's one big lesson I've learned from you recently, and you keep hammering this point home so hopefully everyone else is learning this as well, but it's your goal on spending with ads, it's okay to just break even because of the customer lifetime value you're unlocking there. There's other things besides just return on ad spend or just revenue that comes from that initial order from those ads. There's value in emails. There's value in all these other things that somebody knowing about your brand now and having actually validated your brand by giving you revenue. There's a lot of value here outside of just getting a high return on that ad spend. As much as that should be your goal, it's also okay to buy that first customer by breaking even there. Ryan: Well, yeah. The thing you've talked to me about, enlightened me on, about the post-conversion CROs, things I never thought about. If you're breaking even right before but you've got a great process after the fact to just increase sales immediately after a sale, wow. You've got the halo effect on the front end as well and then you've got additional revenue coming back through a better conversion process to keep that a happy customer. There's just so many wonderful things that happen when you are pushing more traffic as well. Most business owners, I need to tell you and preach to you, don't be timid. Jon: Yeah. Well, Ryan, I definitely feel more comfortable today about knowing half of the money I'm spending on advertising is wasted, but also understanding that I now know that halo effect is helping to ease some of that spend and pretty excited about that. Thanks for walking us through some examples and showing us the value here in doing some of these digital marketing things like Google Shopping, that you might not see a huge return on ad spend immediately, but are increasing your revenue overall. Thanks for your time today, Ryan. Ryan: Oh, yeah. Thanks for the questions.

In every business there are tools specific to that industry or type of business that will help them grow. Ecommerce is no different. CRO is one of the most important tools to grow an Ecommerce business. Today, Jon dives into the role CRO plays in Ecommerce businesses. For help with your CRO: https://thegood.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Ryan: Oh Jon, most people start businesses because they've got skills, knowledge, and the desire to control their work and what they're actually doing on a day to day basis. I would also guess most business owners want to grow and in every business there are tools specific to that industry or type of business that help them grow. E-commerce, as we know, is no different. You and I both know CRO is one of the most important tools to grow an e-commerce business and it's never a bad time to grow. Ryan: Today I'm really excited to dive into the role CRO plays in e-commerce businesses. You, Jon McDonald, knowing more about CRO than anyone I know, can you start us off today by giving us your thoughts on CRO and the growth process of an e-comm business, at a high 30,000 foot level? Jon: Yeah, sure. Well I think the best way to think about this Ryan is that there's only a small number of ways to grow your company just at a high level before even thinking about conversion rate optimization. You can get more new customers, you can get your current customers, or even those new ones, to spend more with you, and you can get your average customer lifetime value up by getting those customers that have purchased to come back and purchase again. Those are really the only three mechanisms you have for earning more revenue out of your business. Jon: So, of course, traffic generation can hit that first one really well. We might argue, and maybe you could fill in on this a little bit Ryan, but traffic generation, when done well in digital marketing, can help you also increase average order value. Then remarketing, you can resell to the people who have already purchased perhaps and you can run campaigns around that. Jon: But I think if you're really looking to impact the first two of those in a major way, conversion rate optimization is really going to be how you're going to get a higher return on that ad spend and how you're generally just going to convert more of your visitors into buyers. So if you're thinking about growth the biggest lever with the highest return on investment, and of course, I'm biased, but I think that the highest return on investment is going to be conversion optimization because with a small investment in making it easier for people to purchase on your site you're going to get a high value back that's going to be sustainable over time. Ryan: Well yeah and I think even on a previous podcast we talked about CRO after the sale even and increasing some of that lifetime value in areas I hadn't even considered actually being CRO. Like even some of the things in the shopping cart post purchase which would increase lifetime value had never even occurred to me. Ryan: I think it does play in all three, but I think for most people as they're thinking through their entire e-comm business they're going to probably see CRO in those first two buckets of growth. As you're looking at e-comm businesses and you analyze tons of businesses, is there a place in the growth curve of an e-comm business where you really see CRO as being the most impactful? I'm thinking in my head of a bell curve and growth or maybe you're growing up to a plateau like where would you in a perfect world insert CRO? Jon: Well I think that you need to have enough traffic to effectively do certain types of CRO. Let's break this down a little bit. Let's look at this bell curve in three chunks. The first chunk would be the folks who are just getting started, maybe we'll just say less than a million dollars in revenue, which is a pretty big gap there. But that first million what you really need to be focused on is making sure people know that you exist. Jon: They need to have an easy to use website but normally you're going after those early adopters who are willing to put up with a little more complications on your site than the average customer. So it's really important for that first third of that curve that you are mainly focusing on driving traffic that is going to hit a very specific segmented marketplace that is going to be your key customers that are going to stick with you no matter. Jon: You probably aren't going to be converting much on branded terms because people don't know who you are, so when people do find your site, at that point, you want to make it as easy for them to purchase but you're not going to be able to do things like AB or multivariate testing because AB testing and multivariate testing, et cetera, require enough traffic for you to get results in a meaningful timeframe. Jon: So in that first third what I usually would want people to do is when I'm looking at these companies I want to see them collecting data. What do I mean by that? Well are they actually looking at great analytics data? Have they actually ever dived in there and customized it a little bit or is it just they just put the snippet from GA on their site and that's all they have. Jon: Couple other things to be thinking about there, like you could easily pretty cheaply get things like heat maps and movement maps. You can do that type of stuff to start understanding how people engage with your website and just make changes based on data. You don't have to test it, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: Just make the changes. The best way to test there is just to do week over week or month over month. Now if you're making changes every day that's going to be hard to really know what worked well, but I don't want that to stop brands. They should still be tweaking their site as much as possible and then sticking to perhaps even larger changes in that first third. Ryan: In that space, in that first third, a lot of times the business owners generally don't know best practices on website. They know their industry, they know their products well. But how much would you as that business owner trust your gut looking at small pieces of data like that on a daily, weekly basis where you can't actually get an AB test and have full confidence that this is what is better. You just say hey, go with your gut on that because it's probably better than not going with your gut? Jon: Well I think that it goes back to the phrase I say quite often which is it's really hard to read the label from inside the jar. I think that with that in mind that it's still as an owner of a site and a daily operator you're still too close to it and you really still need that consumer feedback. Collecting that data and paying attention to it, even if it's only 100 visitors a day or a week, that's still data that you should be looking at. Where are people leaving, what pages are they getting stuck on perhaps, where are they dropping off in the funnel, that's all good information to know where are the holes in your bucket because they're flowing right through that bucket instead of collecting them as revenue. You really need to know where those holes are and that's really what I'm getting at here. Jon: The other thing you can be in this first third of that curve, go talk to consumers. You should email every single person who buys personally. There's not a volume at that stage under a million where you can't email every single person individually and just ask them, "Hey, this is me, this is actually me," just start the email that way. "I'm sending you a personal email. I want to know why you purchased and what your experience was." That's it. Jon: I have never gotten an email like that and I purchase online almost exclusively now, that's my job. I have never gotten a personal email from a brand. It's always an automated give me a thumbs up or thumbs down, or what's my net promoter score and they're doing it in a really horrible way. I don't want to rate you on a scale of 1 to 10, that's not what this is about. I'm not going to waste my effort there. If you sent me a person email and said, "Jon, thank you so much for buying from me, we're just starting out, as you likely know. If you didn't know, well hey, welcome to the small club. Excited you're here. Jon: I want to know about your experience because we want to continue to improve our site. Can we chat for 10 minutes at some point or can you just spend 10 minutes right now just write down your thoughts? Nothing is going to be better than that." There's a lot you can do in that first third that people just aren't doing and that's what I'm looking at these businesses if I'm going to give them a passing grade they're doing at least some of these items and most aren't. Ryan: No, I think that's important as somebody that's launched my own brands. You get, as a business owner, so many different directions that many times it's difficult to I think step back and think about okay, if I am selling online what's the most important thing to me right now. If I'm acquiring traffic I need to make sure it's doing the best. I don't like wasting money. Ryan: So I think most business owners probably need to do a little more of what I would consider some of that grunt work on their own where maybe it's not going to be your most favorite thing to do, but it's highly important if you really want this brand to work. Jon: Right. I think to get to that next level, and I would say that middle of that curve is generally a million to 25 million, big gap. But you can get easily get over a million by just doing what I mentioned. If you put in all that grunt work you will get over a million dollars a year in revenue of your site. Then once you get over that point you will likely start having enough traffic, and by enough traffic, let's just say 40 or so 1000 visitors per month. At that point, if you have 40 or so 1000 individuals hitting your website, and I should say users instead of visitors, there's a difference there in analytics. But when you have that 40,000 users on your site you can now start running AB testing on your site and actually get things to hit statistical significance, which is the mathematical formula that's going to tell you that this is proven with math that it's going to improve the metric you went after. Jon: I think that's what's really important here is that once you hit that middle part of the curve that you are really starting to invest in data-driven decision making that is run by testing ... and usually in this part when I'm looking at these businesses, these are the ones who have some money to start growing and reinvesting on a regular basis. It's usually no longer just the owner spending their own money to grow the company because when they got over that million mark now they have some employees, they start having enough margin, ideally, that they can reinvest. Maybe the owner is still involved, but they also might have hired a digital marketing manager or an e-comm manager. Jon: So at that point, that's when you really start to see some rapid growth and that's why that band is typically a million to 25 million because you can really grow pretty rapidly in there if you're AB testing in each of these 3 points we talked about earlier, which is the first time visitors, getting people to buy more, and then also a repeat customer. You can start optimizing all three of those because you have enough traffic going far down the funnel where you can even run tests in the checkout, which typically is going to be one of the pages that has the least amount of visitors to it because you're only in checkout if you're actually going to buy something. That gives you a wide range. Jon: Now if you're over 25 million, what I really start to look for there on that growth curve at that point is these people have in-house teams, generally, focused on optimization. They've proven out the value in that middle tier and now they've moved up to the top tier and they can start having a whole team centered around this, and if they don't, they realize that they're missing out. They know that they're missing out but there's something else holding them back from doing that. Jon: Generally, that's when they also either start to outsource that or they're looking to augment their team and come up with some additional new, fresh ideas because at that size they start to realize that they're too close to their site and they need some outside ideas. It could be as simple as they're just looking for test ideas or it could be as simple as they want to accelerate their testing and do more of it, or they want to train up their team and refresh the skillset there. Ryan: Got it. So grunt work "CRO" what we termed an earlier episode CRI where you're just making improvements to the site that are removing some friction even if there's not tests to back it up, you're just seeing some of the friction. Really it's 40,000 visitors, million dollars plus in revenue, really want to take the next step and grow. If you don't want to grow you're probably not even listening to this podcast. Jon: Right. Ryan: So you're probably not appropriate for this anyway. But here's something I don't think I've ever asked you about this, and I don't know why. Obviously when you're doing CRO on a site it's impacting everything all the site, all visitors are going to convert better once CRO process is going. What traffic channels generally see the biggest uptick in conversion rates once you've started the process and you're really seeing some good improvements going on? Is there a certain part of the site or type of traffic that you're seeing as just takes off really, really well? Jon: Well I think that it can affect the entire lifecycle of the customer, as we talked about earlier, and thus all the different types of channels once they get to your site. Now in terms of traffic generation channels, I think that generally what we see return on ad spend does improve because you're getting more people to convert. Now at The Good, we focus exclusively on onsite test, so we don't do any testing offsite, so we're not testing ads or any of that type of stuff. Jon: That's where Logical Position in your team comes in. But what we do see here is the match between having a successful ad campaign direct that visitor to an optimized portion of the site, that is like adding fuel to a fire. At that point they both become way more effective. So there's definitely synergies there. Jon: Now in terms of overall channels, generally, we see organic go really, really high. This is because people are already looking for you. They already know you exist. At that point, they've made their mind up that they likely want to purchase, maybe they heard about you through a friend, or it's all those channels that are going to have the people who are going to clearly fit your ideal customer profile. Jon: Now you're going to see those organic numbers really start to increase and improve because you've made the site easier to use. You've reduced all of the barriers that person who already really wants to buy that they're not going to get as frustrated. They're not going to have a reason to desert like they had prior to optimization. Jon: So that's one of the benefits because at that point you can get your cheapest traffic to be optimized and convert higher, then that's where you're going to see a massive return on your investment. But that's not to discount that you would see higher conversions from people who come by clicking on an ad and I think that's really going to be valuable in terms of return on investment. So there's a couple ways to look at that. Ryan: For a business's initial foray into CRO do you recommend their focus be on increasing the number of conversions, increasing the average order value, something else, or all of the above at the same time? Is there an order that I should be looking at those as a business owner? Jon: Yeah. I think that unfortunately The Good is in an industry called conversion rate optimization, so a lot of people come in with the expectation that conversion rate's the only metric that matters. Now I totally understand that 100% matters and if you can move that lever then you're going to see a massive return on your investment in it. But there are a ton of metrics that you do want to be looking at that are I would argue as valuable, if not more valuable and more sustainable. So if I get your conversion rate to double or I get your average order value to double we're going to have this very, very similar outcome, mathematically. People spend twice as much or let's just break it down, I get 100 people to spend $2 or I get a 100 new people to spend $1, we're going to make the same amount of revenue, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So I think you want to look at these metrics more holistically and then develop a plan to one, analyze where your weakness is. Maybe you already have a really strong steady conversion rate and it's more about getting your average order value up, or maybe you notice that your cart abandonment rate is really, really high, or maybe there's not enough people even adding something to a cart, so there's all these clues, there's all these clues around why people aren't buying. Jon: If you just focus on conversion rate you're going to be, as a consumer, an untrained eye or maybe just somebody who's in that first band of up to a million dollars. They're going to go online and read a bunch of articles about improving conversion rates, and the reality is, a lot of them are just going to start running discounts, do pop-ups. Do all these that will show you an immediate boost of numbers but it's not sustainable in any way. And you start having long-term systemic issues where you're stuck on the discount train and once that discount train leaves the station your consumers are always going to be expecting discounts at every single purchase and every single stop, and that's really hard to get off the tracks once that happens. Ryan: And that's not a fun business. Jon: Right. Nobody wants to be in the business of, how do I put this, of giving everybody free stuff. It's basically what it is if you over discount. So I think you really want to be thinking about what metrics are most important to moving the needle for your business. The only way to do that is to go back to what I said earlier, which is early on in your business you need to set up the right tracking. You need to get used to looking at the numbers and you need to start making data-backed decisions. If that guides you into understanding where your metrics could be improved then that should be where you're going to start working on your optimization moving forward. Ryan: Oh man, and I will double down on that statement. I have talked to so many businesses in the startup process or they've been in it a couple years even and they're with a platform like a Shopify or a Bitcommerce and they don't have Google Analytics. How are you looking at your business, oh I just look at the back end of Shopify or Bitcommerce. It's like wow, there is so much more available in a more robust analytics platform than just your shopping cart or the web platform that you utilize that I think both can be important for various things, matching each other up, verifying certain things are working, but for sure make sure your analytics is working and tracking reasonably close. Because even with the Shopifys and the Bitcommerces of the world that have 1000s, millions of users if you're Shopify, the implementations of analytics do not work the same on each one of those. They don't line up correctly all the time, so you got to make it at least line up as close as possible. Jon: Yeah and there's one thing that one of your team members at Logical Position, Brian Aldrich, he really hammered into my head over the years. I've seen him speak at the same events all the time, and stuff. He always says, "You need a single source of truth." Unfortunately, if you the e-commerce platform be your single source of truth you're missing out on a full picture. Jon: So just getting started early on using Google Analytics, or some analytics package, I mean I don't know why you wouldn't use Google Analytics for this, but make that your single source of truth because no two analytics packages are going to line up exactly, and I think that's the point you're making. Jon: But if you just look at one of them like Shopify's built-in analytics that's great for at a glance how did I do day over day, et cetera, but the reality is, it's not going to help you optimize your site so you really need to have that real truth, source of truth, be something that is a full picture of the consumer experience. Ryan: Funny enough, analytics is top of my mind because I had a contact from another one of our partners. He's going off to look at other businesses to get involved with and one of them was an analytics company, so he had me sit down and talk with him to see what it was about and if it had some validity. They started their pitch at me was, "Well you already know analytics is bad, right? Google Analytics?" I was like, "Well, no." Ryan: Their whole thing was like oh yeah, Google's just bad. Google Analytics is bad because it gives itself too much credit and doesn't actually let you see the full attribution of everything. I'm like, well, I mean I don't believe that. But you see it's probably more in depth analytics products across the board. Does one in particular stand out as a business owner when you're looking at things? Is Google Analytics okay but actually bad or is it Adobe is way, way better, or something most companies haven't heard of that they should be looking at in addition to analytics, or instead of? Jon: Well I think you make a good point here and that's that every analytics package is going to be a little different. The thing is it's all in how you use it and the consistency in which you use it, it doesn't matter which platform you use. Also, a startup doing less than 10 million, they have no business looking at Adobe. They can't afford it, just be upfront about that. So it's also what is your return on your investment going to be? Jon: If you are spending a ton of money to get some data but you're not utilizing that data to get a return on that spend then don't do it, what's the point? This is where Google Analytics really serves in a great need is yeah, look, you're giving data to Google, if you're not paying for it you are the product. So the reality is it's a trade off. A lot of people think there's privacy issues in giving that data to Google, and whatever. Jon: Reality is that if you're a site doing under a million dollars a year, or even way more than that probably, Google doesn't care about your data, quite honestly. They've got bigger fish they're working with. The reality here is that out of the box Google Analytics is a great tool to get started with. Then if you don't ever touch it and you don't customize it, yeah, there's going to be better tool sets out there that come customized out of the box. But what I highly recommend is that you start learning early about Google Analytics, you learn how to set up custom dashboards, you learn how to feed information into GA through events on your site. Jon: There are limits on what type of personally identifiable information you feed in, but you can still feed in stuff without tying it back to a user pretty easily. You don't have to send a user's email, or an order number, or a phone number, or any of that kind of stuff into GA to warehouse it there, but you should be able to feed in whenever someone buys a product you can event that says this product was sold and this is the dollar value. That's not tied back to anybody. Jon: So I think there's a lot you could be thinking about there that could extend the Google Analytics to do everything you need and it's going to happen pretty easy out of the box. Now if you're looking to do segmentation that's really drilled down and have a lot of other information, you're going to need tools on top of Google Analytics to do that. But quite honestly, Google Analytics is great for the vast majority of brands out there. Ryan: Good insights, I appreciate that. As we're winding up I do have one more question that maybe it's interesting for people or not, but what's been the longest CRO engagement you've been a part of? Jon: Yeah, it's a great question. If I understand why I usually get this question it's because people want to know how long can conversion optimization influence growth. Is that basically where you're going with this too? Ryan: Yeah, it's like is it 2 years, is it 10 years, is it 6 months. Jon: I have a couple of answers to this. The first is that we've been in business over 11 years and if conversion optimization was not a sustainable thing then there'd be no way we'd be in business this long. I think the longest that we've been, I would say, we had a customer for four or five years and the engagement ebbed and flowed over time, meaning that we would sometimes be launching a lot of tests and sometimes just be holding their hand as they went through changes and coming back and forth. But they were a paying customer of ours for a handful or quite a few years, however you want to look at that. Jon: Now an average, an average goes about two years. Right around that timeline is when I see an average customer that we've helped them get to that next level where we have helped proven the value of conversion and optimization to the point that senior management decides this line item, that's not going away, so we should probably hire and bring that team in-house. I applaud that. I think at that point it makes sense. Jon: If you have a brand that has grown and you've used optimization, and you know that you're going to continue doing this, and you have successfully changed how you think as a brand to where you know that you are going to use data to make decisions, that you're going to put the consumer interactions on your site first, that you're going to really, truly care about your consumer's user experience on your site and the customer experience over all, then great, we've done our job. Jon: We have fulfilled The Good's mission of removing all of the bad online experiences until only the good remain. If I can do that at a brand and help them eliminate all of that, and want to have that same mission, and carry the torch, then I applaud that. So I think after about two years is generally when I see brands start to take that in-house, but there's a lot of brands who decide not to and continue to work with us beyond that. Ryan: In the CRO process does it ever work where you can start and stop constantly like hey, I want to do a three month here, stop for six months, do another three months, six months, stop, does that ever work or is that just more butter and can't finish the process when you start and stop constantly like that? Jon: Yeah, look at it this way, if you want to run a marathon are you going to train to win a marathon by one week running and then taking a couple weeks off and then running again? No. You need to build up [crosstalk 00:27:03]. Ryan: Did you get my training schedule? Jon: Yeah. I'll leave that one. Ryan: Yeah. Jon: But I think it's interesting, a lot of brands and business owners approach it the same way, they just feel like hey, well I can go optimize my site right now and do this once, and be done with it. That's not how it works. I think anyone can go out and do this checklist but that's just step one, that's really just the beginning. So I think all in all that when I see that and I try to set that expectation upfront and when somebody says, "Yeah, I'm going to do this for three months and then reevaluate," it's like well you know what, we can always reevaluate. We can just have that conversation at any point. Jon: But if you're only truly going to do this for three months then we're not going to be a good fit. In fact, do not spend your money on optimization at all because it's not going to have a sustainable long-term impact. You're better off just taking that money that you are going to spend and just running a bunch of discounts on your site, or spending it to drive a lot more unqualified traffic, or doing a lot of other things just to get your brand out there. Jon: But if you really truly want sustainable investment and optimization it needs to be a small amount spent on your site in a regular interval over time and it needs to be a long-term line item. So spend each month and compound that growth very much like a retirement investment account. You need to put a little bit in with every paycheck and then eventually you're going to start getting a lot out of it that it's going to just grow and grow and grow over time. Ryan: That is a phenomenal analogy, I think, for what CRO and what you should be looking at it as. Thank you Jon, I appreciate all the insights today. Ryan: Is there anything I didn't ask that I should have or a point that you wanted to get across in this topic that you couldn't get in there? Jon: I think I wanted to emphasize that CRO can be done at a company of any size, it's just the methodology in which you're going to do that. So I think you have the option to look at getting some data and making data-backed decisions at any size company. How you might use that data and approach, are you going to use that data to run AB testing? No, not for every size company. Jon: But I do think that there are options for every size company. So the mistake I see small brands make is that they feel like they can't do optimization because it's just too expensive and they look at it as an expense instead of investment, and perhaps they're intimidated by the data. But I think that there's a lot of options out there. Ryan: Jon, thank you as always for enlightening me and teaching me something new. I appreciate it. Jon: All right, looking forward to the next chat Ryan.

There are so many folks selling “search engine” services these days. And a lot of that is “snake oil” –– especially when you talk about “search engine optimization” or SEO. And this no doubt bleeds over into the SEM – or “search engine marketing” field too. Today Ryan unpacks just exactly why SEM is so hard to do yourself. For help with your SEM: https://www.logicalposition.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Jon: There are so many folks selling search engine services these days, and that is a lot of snake oil out there. Especially when you start talking about search engine optimization or SEO, this no doubt bleeds over to SEM, or search engine marketing field, as well. The challenge that I see here with SEM is similar to what often happens in my world with conversion rate optimization. There are a ton of free resources out there, checklists, how-to articles, online trainings and certifications, and most of them are too high level and broad to actually be helpful with the e-commerce site. In my view, this really makes SEM very hard to do yourself, especially if you're an e-comm owner. Ryan, today I'm really interested in your thoughts about search engine marketing and why and what makes it so difficult to do it yourself? I really can't wait to get schooled by you once again. Ryan, let's start maybe with what your definition of search engine marketing is. Ryan: It's not complicated, for me. Search engine marketing involves making sure that you are showing up when people are searching for your product or service. As long as there's an intent or a search around that and an active process of putting something in, whether that's voice or typing, texting, it's ... they are searching for it. For me, the biggest ones are obviously Google. Bing, which is now Microsoft Ads. And then I consider Amazon Ads search engine marketing. Yahoo's in there but they usually just get powered by Google and Microsoft Ads themselves. In all of those platforms they are searching for it, and you can design a specific ad in that system to attract that searcher. Jon: That's interesting. I just heard something that brought up an interesting point for me. I've always thought about search engine marketing just being on search engines, but there's so many things out there that are search engines right now. YouTube is the number two search engine. Would you consider showing up in results and marketing around YouTube part of this? Ryan: I guess ancillary, to a degree, yes. It's part of Google. Google owns YouTube and you advertise on YouTube through the Google Ads platform. When you're capturing searches on Google looking for your particular product, you can also have YouTube ads, as far as remarketing. The difference I see on YouTube versus general search engine platforms is that a not a lot of people go to YouTube to find the product to buy. They may be doing some higher level research on looking for reviews. If I'm looking to buy a Bluetooth speaker, my dad just bought one for his neighbor, he had to do some research and figure out which one was going to be easiest because she's 80 years old. You can go on YouTube and find some reviews about ease of use or older people using Bluetooth speakers, and see which one's easiest. It's a research process, more, on YouTube, then it'll be, "I need a Bluetooth speaker now. I'm going to go to YouTube and buy one." Generally that's not how people are trying to transact yet. They can transact with Google or go to the website and buy it, or they go to Amazon and buy from the Amazon platform. Jon: That definitely makes sense. It's ancillary there but it's not the main way you would define it. You're thinking Google, Bing, those type of search engines at this point? Ryan: Yeah. They're actually searching for the product or service. That, for me, is the big key. In the paid realm, it involves a lot of things outside of a search engine. You can pay for display ads that are prospecting, they're not searching for you yet, or you're remarketing through those ads that can happen across the internet. You have social ads where you're marketing to followers of your brand or trying to find new followers and get your products in front of them for them to try, but they're not actively searching for that product. You're trying to get them to search for that product. So search, generally, I see further down the funnel. Jon: Okay. Ryan: [Crosstalk 00:04:18] a cut when people are not searching for it. Jon: That definitely makes sense to me then. I know this is a high level question but it is the topic of the episode today. Let's just dive in. What makes SEM so difficult to do it yourself? Ryan: Jon, that is a great question because it crosses the mind of almost every business owner as they're looking through a [PNL 00:04:38] and see the charge for an agency or an individual that's managing their marketing, like, "Well, why can't I just save this money, put that in my pocket, or develop something else with that extra money monthly or annually?" The real answer is because the search engines are constantly changing. What is currently happening on Google or what you currently see on your phone or your desktop when you do a search, is not the way it's going to look in a couple months, six months down the road. That constant change means that you need somebody or something to keep on top of all of those changes constantly. Just from the Google algorithm of ranking organic results, I think there's 500 to 600 changes every single year to that algorithm alone. If you've been in e-comm long enough, you've seen a huge change around the paid side of things. You had Frugal 12 years ago, 10 years ago, where all of your clicks and shopping were free. Then it changed into PLAs, then the Google officially called it Google Shopping and then there was Smart Shopping. In between those big shifts, there was all these little changes. Constantly new ad sets, new placements. We now have ads that show in Google images. We have Google Shopping showing all over the place and being able to dissect and see which ad types are working versus not working. It's crazy how much development we have to do internally to keep on it, and we have 700 people at the company constantly researching, studying. And then we have that group think kind of thing going on. But that amount of change is astronomical, and I've been in the industry for 10 years. My general thought is, I've been studying to be an expert for over a decade now, and I'm still, by no means, the smartest person in e-comm marketing. There's people like [Frederic Filloux 00:06:19] whose brains are ... I'll probably never catch him, but if you're a business owner or a marketer and you've not been studying specifically how to be the best possible expert in paid search, for example, you're going to beat ... get beat by somebody that's been studying it to survive or as a career path, or because they're super passionate just about paid search. I think understanding that dynamic, it makes it difficult to say, "Oh, yeah, I probably should DIY this to either save some money or because I think I can really do it well." I think about it as, you're going to be in a fight with somebody, because that's kind of what paid search is. It's your money versus theirs, your ad versus theirs, for the consumer at the end of it all. You could be a decent fighter, but if you're not a professional, you're not going to jump into the octagon and try to take on somebody that does this for a living and eat, sleeps, trains, and breathes ultimate fighting. It's not going to happen. Jon: We don't need to get kicked in the face because you have not been training, right? Ryan: Exactly. Jon: Let's break that down then. There's two possible options if you are going to work with an expert. There's the contractor and there's agencies. What's the difference between hiring that really passionate individual versus hiring that agency with 600 employees? Ryan: This is a good one. There are some highly talented contractors in the world. Very, very good. Some of the best people at an agency will go off on their own and take one or two clients and just operate those clients. Nothing bad with it, it happens regularly in our industry. The problem is for the majority of contractors, their life's going to evolve. If you get a contractor, let's say when they're 25, it's just them, they're traveling around, enjoying life, managing a couple of clients. Great lifestyle for them. Let's say they decide to take steps and have a family where maybe income needs to increase. Well, if your company is not providing enough income for them, they need to have more clients. Generally in America, you want your business to increase in value or you want your work to increase or your income to increase. Most contractors are good for a little while and then they want to scale. They want to get bigger. That means they have to also look at acquiring and so they're stepping away from just managing your account and figuring about, "How can I get another account?" or, "How do I insulate myself if this client canceled so that I don't have a huge income hit and starve for a few months until I find another client?" There's always going to be this dynamic with a contractor of growth versus taking care of what they have versus how do they protect themselves or insulate themselves from clients that eventually will cancel? That's part of it. The other part, I would say, is when somebody is doing nothing but working on your account they will know your account intimately, but are they going to be able to see other things coming down the road or learn new techniques from an account that they wouldn't be managing because they're a contractor, but they can learn from the person sitting next to them in an agency? I've seen a lot of group think that's helped. We've, at least at our agency, have repurposed a lot of things that Google intended one way, completely different way, and it worked phenomenally well. For example, this beta, we did one that was intended for the travel industry. They were showing these big, beautiful images when you search this destination. We're like, "Wow, that is just awesome." We didn't have a tremendous dearth of travel clients at the time but we're like, "That's really cool beta." We're like, "I wonder if we could get one of our e-comm clients to show product images in there when somebody searches for a product." So we went to our Google team and was like, "We think this has some validity with this client here. Do you think we can get him in the beta?" They're like, "Let's get him in the beta." Worked phenomenally well. They crushed it. I think they had it for four months and then Google sunset the beta because it didn't actually work as they intended it for travel, but it worked phenomenally well for e-commerce. So we had an eCommerce client using something in a different purpose, that if we didn't have a breadth of clientele, we wouldn't have even heard about that beta and seen that. Also, Google does have some teams that help agencies that they may not be at the same level or even can have the resources to help aid just a contractor. Sometimes it can but most of the time you're going to have additional resources that Google throws at an agency because it scales Google better. Jon: They're more of a partnership there. Ryan: I also worry about the bus. If your contractor gets hit by the bus, what happens? If they're stuck at a hospital, you don't even know because they didn't have to notify their client when they got stuck in the hospital. I like having backups in place. Jon: That's a good point. Ryan, let's dive one step deeper on this then. You were at a small agency previously before you were brought into Logical Position. Now you're with a large agency with over 6,000 clients. What should people be thinking about between a small agency versus a larger agency? Ryan: Having seen both sides, I do have a little bit of a unique perspective. When I was at a small agency, I really liked being small and nimble and being able to pivot. As a CEO of that agency, it was great to have all of these options. If I saw something I wanted, I was like, "Yeah, let's go do that. That sounds like fun." At a larger agency, there may be a little bit more red tape when I want to just go do something. We have to get some people aligned and make sure it's not going to impact other parts of the business. From a client, I get some clients that have said, "No." They don't want to work with us at Logical Position because they don't want to get lost inside a large agency. They want to be more important to the agency that they're working with which, I can see that. As a business owner myself, I'm like, [inaudible 00:11:40] my vendors to care about me and pay attention to me. So some of them are like the big fish, small pond. There's some good things about that. I think most agencies in the U.S. are not as big as us and so most agencies I would consider small. They can be hyper-focused on industries so there's some ability, if you have clients that operate locally ... I know there's a really big agency, actually, that focuses just on flooring. Most flooring contractors and suppliers operate locally and so they're able to just be very, very good at saying, "We know how to market flooring. We're going to do it in Dallas for this company and this company in this area of Dallas," because there's not as much overlap. In the e-comm space, generally we're all competing with everybody in the U.S. for eyeballs, for clicks, and for sales. I personally want the absolute best for my marketing, whether it's big or small. That part becomes, if everything else is equal, I generally like more resources in my vendors. They are more insulated. They're more protected against employee turnover. They're more protected against a power outage and one office can be compensated for in another office. Generally more security measures in place at larger organizations. This is obviously generally speaking. That's just a personal preference of mine. I've seen the difference at a larger organization. That group think is just expounded upon if the agency is run well. We have people dedicated to strategy. We have omnichannel strategy team that our clients don't pay for but they rotate through all of the clients and help their clients understand omnichannel strategies and maybe things they weren't normally thinking about in their paid search conversations that has to do with, "Your social strategy, maybe you need to look at this," or, "Your wholesale or direct to consumer through brick and mortar, maybe we need to talk about this," or, "Here's some partners that we have over here that may be appropriate." I think it's the overall resources we can allocate because of scale, it's pretty impressive. I didn't dislike boutique, but, man, our clients have so many more resources now under the Logical Position banner than they had beforehand. I think our skillset and optimization strategies have evolved at a much quicker pace with all the people involved in hiring new people and new blood to give us fresh eyeballs. We may be doing things one way and somebody else comes in and like, "Well, you could really change this and do it that way." And we're like, "You know what? We never even thought about that because we've been doing it this way for three years." Now we have another set of eyes that's fresh and they're like, "That could be done better." Jon: We've talked about what search engine marketing is. What's the difference between working with a contractor versus doing it yourself versus hiring an agency of different sizes. What if somebody who decides, "I'm not at the point where I can pay somebody for this yet. I need to do search engine marketing to get started. I know it's going to be difficult to do well myself, but I want to set myself up so that I can transition to that agency and get some help down the line," what are some good ideas for how they should get started? What should they be thinking about as they're diving into this? Ryan: I think people starting off, you need to start with the idea that you're entering the marketplace and you haven't been there yet. What I look at is there's been homeostasis across the marketplace as it sits now, and you're going to put a new competitor in there. That's going to have an impact. As the new competitor that doesn't have the data that the other competitors do, whether the other competitors use it or not, it doesn't necessarily matter. They have some data if they want to use it, you're coming in almost blind saying, "I think this is going to work. I want to pay for clicks and traffic to my site." That disruption, you need to probably default to aggressive. Aggression can mean many things in the e-commerce SEM space. When I say it, I'm meaning that you are willing to take less margin-per-order to capture market share and start collecting that data fast. If you're going to compete nationwide, e-commerce in the paid search realm, you're probably not going to compete well by spending 100 or 200 bucks a month. If that's your budget, there's probably better places to put it. I generally say, if you're not going to start with at least 2,500 bucks, I think you could probably do better things with it. This is not a fast and true across all industries, all e-comm period, but as a general rule, do that. Then you also need to commit to it for at least three months. Basically you're looking at 7,500 bucks of marketing to be able to get a good gauge. In a perfect world, you're going to go at least six, but the shortest I would go would be three months to get this data. Jon: What I'm hearing then, Ryan, is if you are going to dive into this, you likely should be looking at spending a decent amount of money. If you're spending that much money though, then it does make sense to have someone manage it. It's like, if you have a lot of finances personally, you should have someone helping you manage that because you can't be looking at it every day, adjusting your investment. That's kind of what's needed here, right, is somebody to help look at that? Ryan: Oh, yeah. In fact, I actually tried to start up a domain called, Search Investors, because I wanted people to see us as investors where you're putting money in, and our job is to make it do what you want it to do. It is complicated. Just like I don't manage my own money, my investments. I don't have the time to dedicate that somebody that knows the investment world and can prepare for ups and downs and get my money doing what it's supposed to do. I'm not even passionate about it. It's like, "Just go make it happen. I'm good at maybe bringing the money in and you're going to be good at making it grow once it's in." Yes, that is part of it, is once you're going to spend 2,500 a month, it does make sense to have somebody that's really, really good at this to give you the best shot at it. If you're going to spend less than that, you can probably get a little more creative. There's some areas you can probably be spending money. One of the great ways to start would, if you wanted to truly spend 500 bucks, put a gun to my head and say, "You have to come up with an idea for 500 bucks a month." I would say, "We're going to go onto Microsoft Ads because the competition is lower there, the search volume is lower. You can maybe test the waters a little easier. The platform itself is a little more difficult to work in, maybe, than Google, but it's still generally the same thing. Track your sales and orders there through that process." Even then, I think 500 bucks a month could be spent more wisely at growing an e-comm brand. Maybe if you also sell on Amazon, Amazon Ads may be better. There could be a better place on social media to be spending 500 bucks on an influencer to drive some sales. Even doing some SEO at 500 bucks a month may be more valuable for your brand than $500 in paid search. Could be. Every situation is different. I don't even do my own ads because I know there's people better than me. I'm fairly good at the ad piece, but I know people that are so much better than me, I'm like, "All right." I'm playing this game to win. I'm not playing it for fun. My businesses aren't ... they are hobbies because I just enjoy them, I'm passionate about business. But at the end of the day, I want my businesses because I believe I'm the best at what I'm doing there, to be the biggest and the best because I'm going to be able to help more people. I use my resources and thoughts saying, "If I'm really good at the marketing piece, I'm going to capture a larger market share, I'm going to have more of the market, and there are going to be more people that know me and are happy with what's going on versus my competitors, which maybe aren't as good as I am." Jon: Within the past year we've had this global pandemic. I'm wondering, how does that change some of what you're thinking about here around these items? Ryan: I think it's even more important to have experts that have lots of data behind what they're doing. We've had global pandemics which are relatively new [inaudible 00:20:01] States, at least since we've been alive. The last big one we had, you can look back at the Spanish Flu of 1918, but there's not a lot of people that have been alive that experienced both that one and then we've had the coronavirus going on. Changes like that, I think, are going to become more common in the online space. It's just going to shake things up and cause people to look at data differently or transact online differently. I think people with more data and more access to it are going to be able to see trends quicker and pivot clients quicker or test more things at the same time. It is, to a degree, another argument for maybe a larger agency, that when you have 6,000 clients that you're talking to monthly that you're seeing what they're doing in the marketplace and you're seeing, "This business owner tried this over here, look at how good that worked. Hey, we've got a bunch of other clients that can now try that or experiment with that in their business." It's almost like CRO across 6,000 clients, to a degree. Not necessarily CRO but you're seeing all these various things happening and all these AB tests going on that we can look at our Google MCC and see, "What is causing that client to go crazy right now? Let's dive into that." It's, I think, more important to have somebody that just understands. As we get more and more experienced with these massive global hiccups, if you will, we're going to know how to react better and better as a society. I think also, generally experts react even quicker to changes. You play a lot of basketball, and when they started shooting more three-pointers in Golden State, they had people that adapted very quickly to that. Then even just a couple of years later, the best basketball players in the planet weren't able to do as much as they could have before against that offense or against the defenses they were setting in place. The experts will evolve the quickest, and now you could probably still go into high school basketball and shoot three-pointers all day and that same exact Golden State offense will work really well at the high school game. Jon: Now it's changing, you have seven-footers shooting three-pointers. Ryan: Oh my gosh. Never would have thought before. Manute Bol when I was a kid [inaudible 00:22:01] shooting three-pointers. Jon: Yeah, I wouldn't have thought that. This has been really insightful. As usual, it comes back to expertise. If you have expertise in this industry, you will do way better than if you're just trying to do it yourself. Getting that expertise on your team is really going to drive the results for you. It's just so hard to know what's out there, what is all that data? It's hard for you, within your own little world of just you and your company, versus having a partner who is seeing this across 6,000 clients and seeing the trends and data. That's really interesting to me. Any final thoughts here, Ryan, before we wrap up? Ryan: I would just say there's very few scenarios in which I'd recommend a business owner or high level marketing executive doing in ... being involved in the minutia of digital marketing. Even if you hire a small agency or large agency or contractor, that time alone can be better spent in other areas. If I come across a business owner that's doing their own marketing on Google, I know there's nothing happening on there. They may log in every day, but you see the changes they're making, it doesn't have anything to do with optimizing the account. Maybe a couple of negative keywords but that time spent working on the business would have way bigger dividends if you'd hired somebody to handle that piece and moved on to that. That's what I try to do in my business is just, "Where could I find people that are smarter than I am?" And it's most often in almost every area. Jon: Yeah. I call that, best and highest use. What is your best and highest use? It's probably not messing around in AdWords or Microsoft ads. It's making sure that you spent the time to find somebody who is an expert to help you, and making that effective. That's a great point. We didn't even talk about the return on investment today. I think that's a really great point that people should be thinking about here. Ryan: Make more money on your time and money. Jon: There we go. Ryan, thank you so much for educating me once again. I've been schooled on what makes search engine marketing difficult, to do it yourself. Ryan: Thanks Jon.

James:  Hi, audience and listeners. This is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today I have Ryan Gibson from Spartan Investment Group. It's an investment group that focuses a lot on Self-storage. They have almost 4,000 units. They have a lot of units in DFW area and a few other States. I think Ryan's going to talk about in a short while, and they recently started to [00:32unclear] in a mobile home parks, which we'll touch upon in a short while. Hey Ryan, welcome to the show. Ryan: Thanks, James, for having me. It's fun to get on your show. It's great. James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So why not you tell about yourself and your company, things that I've missed out? Ryan: Yeah, so we are based in Golden, Colorado, and we buy existing and develop self-storage properties. And we do all of our properties and projects through syndication. So we raised capital from private investors and we go out and buy storages that we can buy and get existing cashflow on. And then we can eventually either expand them or just improve operations to make additional income. We also build self-storage from the ground up and we do a little bit of RV park investing as well, but storage is the primary focus. So, you know, previously, we were land developers and built condos and flipped houses and focused on storage mostly just because of the recession resistancy, you know, during downtimes. And when we were first looking at the industry, that really is what you know, attracted us to jump into the business. Was the, you know, kind of how it performed during the last two recessions. James: Got it, got it. Yeah. I mean, I did a lot of research of different asset classes. I wrote it in my book as well. Like how many asset class, six asset class for the past 15 years and just on my own, this is not from Marcus and Millichap or this is not from CoStar.  I looked at all the asset class and was looking at all the past 15 years report, which that's a report called Integra Realty Resources. That's the report that all the commissioner pays us a report to, that's the organization. And I was looking at self-storage and multifamily and all that. I was surprised to see that self-storage did do well the past 15 years, even during the downturn. I know at the beginning, you know, 15 years back, they didn't really allocate a specific asset class for it, but they did talk about it. And in general, I didn't see any downturn, even though every other asset class goes up and down. So that's very interesting. And why do you think is that? Ryan: Because it relies on life events and life events never stop happening. No, I'm serious. You get divorced, typically, stuff goes in storage. You renovate your house, stuff goes into storage. In times of good times, stuff goes into storage and times and the bad time, stuff goes into storage. When you get downsized, when you move, when your job relocates, when there's a disruption in the market that triggers self-storage events. And added onto that, businesses use it because not everybody can park their work truck in their HOA driveway, if they're in a covenant restricted community and not everybody can have all their utilities and supplies in their house. And so, you know, simpliest way to say it, you know, for an extra 50 bucks a month, imagine having a whole other room in your house. And that's really been a big driver for demand and self-storage.  We like it because unlike other asset classes, when a customer comes in, we have a lien against all of their stuff. So if they don't pay, we can auction that off for a profit. So, you know, the revenue loss is much lower for you know, the potential when a tenant doesn't pay. With COVID and everything, there was still a rental rate, great increases. We still had high occupancy. We still can host auctions and have people move out if they don't pay. We held back on that in a couple of properties and a couple of markets, but for the most part, you know, we didn't have the government restrictions that a lot of other asset classes had on that kind of stuff. James: Got it. Well, I mean, I'm sure the audience is thinking why not James jump on self-storage. So but let me tell you why I didn't, you can always debate this. So one thing I didn't jump on self-storage at that time. I mean, of course, for me, focus is very important. I mean, every asset class has so many nuances in it. I mean, it's not easy, even though self-storage is like four walls and there's nothing in it, but there's a difficulty in finding the deal and difficulty in executing the business plan and turn around and, you know, disposition and all that. So, I mean, but I didn't do it because at that time there was not much of nonrecourse loan available, I think, unless you go really low on the leverage. So how is that right now? Ryan: You can get a non-recourse right now on ground-up construction James: On ground-up construction. Okay. Got it. What about on the... Ryan: Oh, and of course you know, that would be rare in our industry. Of course, on buying existing self-storage properties, non-recourse is widely available. James: Got it. Okay. So now it's available right now, at what leverage level? Ryan: It just depends. I think we just tied up a deal that around 70 to 75% non-recourse institutional loan. So, you know, it just depends on the lender. Depends on the deal. Depends on the play. James: Oh yeah. I had a friend who was like 85 years old. He's a broker, but he's a very healthy guy. And he said he started multifamily and moved on to storage and he owns a lot of storage unit and I was calling him and he said, maybe at that time, he said, yeah, it's hard to find non-recourse loans. The other challenge in storage is, you know, I mean, anybody can build a new self-storage development in front of your storage unit. It's very easy to build Ryan: Maybe. Yeah. So, you could say that as a general statement, that wouldn't apply everywhere. So there's a lot of moratoriums on storage. There is a lot of restrictions. Some communities don't have zoning for it. Some cities quite frankly, would not allow you to use it at all. So, you know, it just depends on where you are. Some jurisdictions it's, Oh yeah, come build it. No problem at all. So you just need, you know, it just depends on the market. You know, we have markets where there's no zoning and we could build whatever we wanted and there are markets where it's taken us 40 years to get a permit. So it really just depends. And then there are some markets where you get your permit and then they slap a moratorium on there and you can't build your storage anymore. That's happened out here in Washington and a few places.  So you really got to pay attention. And, you know, and I think really if someone was like, what's the one thing that I could take away from talking to a storage operator? It's the market study. It really comes down to: do you have the demand and is there the supply of people and demand essentially in the market to fill up your property or execute your business plan? It's huge. You know, someone might say, is storage a good play? I don't know, make up a city, Austin, Texas and I will say, well, generally, no, it's not, it's actually a terrible market, no offense, but it might be good on one side of the town and catastrophic on the other side. It's a three-mile business so it's like whatever's happening around in that immediate micro-market is really what it comes down to. So some markets are generally better, some markets are generally worse, but at the end of the day, it's right in that five, 10 minute drive time of the property. In the market study, that makes the difference. James: So, all your details that you're telling me right now, that's why I say there are so much of nuances in any asset class that outsiders may not know. I mean, it's easy to say, you know, it's easy to build but there's so much of a market research knowledge that, you know, only the operators who are specialized in it knows about it. So, and I do have a lot of respect for every asset class operators. There are definitely people who are really good at that. So let's walk through a deal in self-storage.  So not in terms of deal underwriting, but let's look at the demographic of that storage. Let's say you found land in a city. Walk us through the steps you would take to say whether this is a good site for a self-storage facility? Ryan: So a couple of things. The first thing I would look at is what's the population. So I would drop in on the facility, we have data and maps that will show us the drive times. And then based on those drive times, we'd get the population within the drive times of the property. And then we would look at saturation levels. James: And what are the drive times? Minutes? Ryan: Yeah, four minutes. I think we use eight minutes and 15 minutes. Think of it this way. If you're in an urban core, you're not going to drive 15 minutes across town, you're going to drive eight minutes so that there's relevancy to where you are in the market. But what we look at is, you know, we'll look at what are the comparable rent comps to what our subject facility is charged. So, you know, we might be getting $15 a square foot on the average but it's important to know kind of what type of facilities those are: three-story glass, Class A facilities, are they first-generation roll-up metal buildings, you know, big difference. Is it non-climate controlled is it climate controlled and in that market, is it a hot market, like a warm climate that likes self-storage to be climate controlled? Or is it a market that prefers drive-up or, you know, climate control would be overkill and people would be unwilling to pay the extra money for that.  So we look at price per square foot, you know, probably just like multifamily. And then, for Spartan, we look at the ability to add onto that property, you know, can we expand it and what is the existing dirt that's there? What is it? Is it flat gravel? Are there stormwater requirements, setbacks, easements restrictions, how usable is that land, and how much would it take to get the land pad ready? Cause we're developers. I mean, we take properties and develop them into bigger... James: What about zoning? Ryan: Zoning is important. That's kind of a little bit further down on the checklist. The top thing is demand. Cause you know, you could have, Oh, this is a zone for self-storage. And of course, everybody knew that. And then everybody built, a bunch of storage is there and there's no demand. James: But is it easy to change as zoning from, let's say in multifamily to self-storage?  Ryan: Ah, that's a loaded question.  James: Maybe not multifamily. I know residential has a lot of high priority in terms of city development. Let's say, commercial office building, commercial land to self-storage. Ryan: I mean, it depends. I know you don't like the word, it depends, but it depends. So like if you are looking in a market where, you know, we entitled the self-storage project in a city that had no zoning for storage. So everything was a conditional use permit. Everything was a public hearing. The public had come in, the city had to make a recommendation to a hearing examiner. Huge process. We've taken a residential land and rezoned it into commercial so we could build self-storage. We had to go in front of the board of county commissioners. We had to go in front of, you know, there had to be room for public comment. There was opposition, but we were successful and got the land entitled, but every jurisdiction is just a little bit different. We've bought properties that are zoned for storage and we've gotten the entitlements and they can take anywhere from two to six months to get it,  it's a building permit, you know, depending on how fast you're pushing and assuming no closures in the city and things like that. It just runs the gamut. You know, as I said, I have colleagues in the industry that have bought property, they got the entitlements. So yeah, you can build storage here. And then the city puts a moratorium on storage and now they can't build anything. So they bought this land, they got the entitlements, they've spent all this money, now they can't even build it.  James: How do you prevent that kind of thing from happening? Ryan: You don't. James: Because you've already bought the land.  Ryan: I mean, you could negotiate the contract to close upon building permits, but then you've got to find a willing seller and you know, of course, that's always a negotiation.  James: It's too messy, I guess. Ryan: But yeah, when you develop, I mean, it can be riskier and there's a potential for a bigger return but you also introduce a lot more risks. So yeah. I mean, is it easy to do? It can be, and it can be very difficult to the point of being impossible so it really just depends.  James: So when you guys raised the money from your investors, have you already done that, let's say for a [13:57unclear]  project. Have you already done that part or are you are still looking at that entitlement? Ryan: Yeah, we've really learned our lessons through the year. So you know, we bought a storage property and when the rezone of the land from, you know, so you have kind of a couple of different phases of development when you're doing like the paperwork to get it ready to go vertical. So the last thing you get is their building permit. So your building permit is pretty straight down the fairway; that is meeting building codes, getting your building permit, not a lot of risk in that - a risk, but there's not a lot of risks. But the phase just before that might be your entitlement so that you can actually do what you want to do, or might even be some type of site plan development where the city has to approve your site plan but you don't necessarily have your drawings done for the buildings they've just approved. Okay. Building here, building here, building here, this is your height. This is your step back. This is how much square footage you're going to deliver and a site plan approval. And then you have the zoning that might be before that. And it might already be zoned that that might be your first step. You know, do I meet the zoning if I don't, I might have to rezone that could take years. So, you know, we just kind of look at the projects and negotiate with the seller to buy the property. You know, when it hit a point where we're comfortable with closing on the land, and then we negotiate the purchase and sales agreement as such, and then we do the raise in accordance with how we feel our comfort level to be. Because we don't want to raise the money until we know we can do what we want to do. And you know, we've really refined our processes for that over the years to know that, Hey, we can close. And we've gotten better at negotiating. Like how can you expect me to buy this land and I don't even know I can do what I want do with it? If it's a hot market, you know, make a decision; you either want it, or you don't. If it's a property that's been sitting on the market for a year, you can come up with some pretty creative ways to keep the property tied up while you go through that process. James: So how many percents of these 4,000 units were developed versus how many were bought from....? Ryan: 25% James: 25% newly developed. Okay. Are you guys more trending towards development rather than buying? Ryan: That's a great question. I would probably say we're buying more than we are developing right now for no reason other than our development pipeline is full enough. Development is expensive and development requires a lot of cash and you don't want too many of them going on at one time. So we have two very large, about $22 million right now with development. Actually, no, we probably have about $30 million in development right now and that's about our comfort level. That's our spend for 2020 for development and we really don't want to get much past that. We also only develop in the states that we live in so Washington and Colorado. Adding onto a property is not a big deal, but we don't like to do ground-up development where we go through the whole process if we live out of state, because inevitably if you want to get things done, you gotta be down at the county, down at the city hall, down at the office, all the time. You're going down there all the time. Oh, you want this? Okay. No problem. James: Otherwise, it's going to just take forever to get a project done. Ryan: And who wants to fly an hour and a half somewhere to drop off a piece of paper and then fly back? I mean, it's just not efficient. So we just like to be in town.  I can't tell you how many times I've gone down there to, you know, shake the trees and get progress. James: Yeah. I've done a small land development beside my apartment. We were converting it. We were combining the adjacent plot of land into the apartment. And that itself was a lot of work already. But the city was supportive and it went through well by just the amount of paperwork, the amount of bureaucratic process that you have to go through. So, absolutely. What about a demographic? I mean, we talked about demographics. How do you say that this particular submarket is a good demographic for a good self-storage business? Ryan: We like at least 1% growth. We like to see trending growth. We like to see 50,000 income. We like to see saturation levels like a seven square foot per utilization for storage. James: How do you get that data? Seven square feet per utilization? Ryan: We have Radius Plus and we use a couple of different programs. Radius and there's one other program that James: So Radius is a software for self-storage investors? Ryan: Yes. James: Okay. For them to see the demand, I guess. Ryan: If you gave me an address, within 20 minutes, I could tell you what's the drive time around it. I could tell you the demographics. I could tell you the demand. I could tell you all the permits in the pipeline. So that's another thing. This is great. I can tell you everybody who's building, everybody who's applied, who's canceled, who is coming. And then of course we do our boots on the ground research where we go knock on doors and go to the city and ask them like, Oh, Hey, you know, is anybody else? Oh yeah, John, you know, he was over here last week. You know, that doesn't show up on record but the intent. And then you go talk to John and you say, Hey, you're really going to do this because we're thinking about doing it too. And we've got into situations like that and you know, either we've given up or they give up or whatever, and we just move on to a different market if the market can't supply all that additional. James: So does the self-storage purchase involves stringent requirements or stringent terms like what multi-families like day one, hard money, you know, very tight on inspection, do due diligence process? Ryan: It's extremely competitive. And it might be as competitive or more competitive as multifamily. Because when people think of storage, they're like, Oh, I've never really heard of that. I don't know what that is. And then they do multifamily and they're like multifamily is really hard. You know, there's always people doing it and Oh my God, there's so much competition. Maybe I'll go try storage because it'll be less competitive. And then they go over to storage and they're like, Oh, there's a lot of people that do this. But what the difference is there are so many multifamily properties in the United States. Self-storage, you can't even hold a candle to the wind. I mean there are 50,000 facilities total in the entire United States. So yeah, when you're talking about competition, if you're looking at a property that's a million dollars or less, no problem. You can go bid on it as a mom and pop.  When you go a million to maybe 6 million that you can reposition or that, you know, show some signs of a mom and pop operations, you're competing against the best of them. You know, the all-cash, close in 30 days, 60 days, whatever it might be. But generally what we do is we do about 10% earnest money deposit...sorry, not 10%. On a $6 million facility, we might put up anywhere from 25 to 50K. And that doesn't go hard until due diligence is completed and signed off on. James: Oh, okay. So that's not bad. It's not like day one hard money, like what's happening in multifamily, right? Ryan: No. And if we were in that space, we wouldn't play that game. So yeah, whether you think it or not, you're competing with yourself at that point. You're worried about losing that money. I mean, we have a 100% contract-to-close ratio, so everything that we've put under contract we've purchased. I mean, we had a bank pull out three days before closing, we went and raised a private loan. We did our own deal. So we've done everything to really help get the deal closed and we've got that reputation to close. And I think that people value our relationship a lot more than they do necessarily how much earnest money we put up. And we've had a broker bring us a lot of deals and just keeps bringing us deals because we make it real simple on them. You know, it's a very simple process with us. We get everything on the table. We are very transparent and as you know, in multifamily that'll go a long way. Any business, right? James: Yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. I mean, brokers, love people who are easy to deal with. Because you know, this is just multimillion-dollar deals and you do not want to have a tough person to work with when you're going to such a big transaction. So at a very high level, what are the value add that you usually do in self-storage? Ryan: Cameras for security, rental rate increases. James: So what, you put a camera and you get higher rental rate or it's just...? Ryan: People walk in and they want to feel secure. So our target customer is a 70-year-old woman, that's who rents our properties. So when they walk to your property, is it dark, are there cameras, is it secure? Does it feel like the fence is going to fall over? So we take the properties, we'll put in a new fence, we'll put in new cameras, we'll paint all the doors, we'll replace doors, we'll rehab the office, we'll put in notary services, we'll put in ice and vending machines.  James: Why do you need a notary service in a self-storage facility?  Ryan: Convenience. So we like to be a shop of convenience. So if somebody has got an Etsy, Amazon, they have a home-based business and they can come to our storage facility, they can drop their FedEx/UPS deliveries off at one of our properties. They can get their items notarized. They can ship, they can store. We even have a car wash at one of our properties. So, we try to be a place of convenience for people. Not that we were going to make any money on it. It's just a place where people can go and know that I rent my Uhaul truck to move my goods somewhere. At your property, I can notarize my documents, I can store my belongings, I can do a lot of different things to transact and do my business obligations. And so what we try to be kind of a helpful facility. Not all of our facility does that because not every facility even has an office. But the ones that do, you know, we sell retail. We start, you know, people pay cash, we get rid of cash payments and we go to as many automated payments as possible. We enforce the lease. You know, a lot of these facilities we take over, tenants might not even be on adequate leases. So without being on an adequate lease, you don't have an adequate lien against their belongings. You can't do an auction.  James: Have you guys done auctions? Ryan: All the time. James:  It's like Storage Wars on TV, right?  Ryan: Yeah. Yeah.  James: That really happens? Ryan: Yeah. The semantics are true or the actual process is true, but the way that it's carried out is not true. So nobody goes in person, you know, there are some old school places that still kind of do that, but we do them online. So you can go to selfstorageauctions.net, you can register. And then in your neighborhood, there could be a storage auction and you get alerted like, Oh, Hey, this unit is going up for auction. You can kind of log into your account and see, Oh, what's in there. James: All right. I can see all our audience and listeners are doing that right now. I didn't even know that. What was the website? Ryan: I think it's selfstorageauctions.net. And so as a company, what we do is we say, you know, that the storage auctions is revenue producing or whatever. They're not really revenue-producing. They're basically just to get you to get out and get a new customer in. Like we clear out the, you know, and it's the threat of losing your stuff, right? If you don't pay, you lose your stuff. James: So it's like an eviction process, I guess.  Ryan: Right.  James: Except the government can put the moratorium like what they did in multifamily right now. Ryan: The government hasn't touched us. So usually within 30 to 60 days, if you're not...so let's say, your rent is due today. If you haven't been paid in five days, you get a late fee and your unit gets locked automatically. So the gate code that lets you into our properties, the revenue management system will automatically turn the gate off.  James: Really? [26:40crosstalk]  Ryan: We over-lock your unit. You can't even get into your unit.  James: You don't pay your rent and after five days, it locks by itself? Ryan: Just like that. And then we'll over-lock you. So we'll put a red lock on your unit as well. Some of our properties will have the smart locks where it'll lock behind the door so you can't get in, you can't get into your stuff. So if you don't pay after five days, you're automatically locked out. So we liked that. We don't have to really manage that too hard. I mean, there's, you know, we have property managers are onsite staff that deals with that, but the gate code, that's automatic. And then once you pay it, we'll let you back in. But if you don't pay, you're locked out. So now you don't have access to your stuff and after 30 days we do our notices, our legal notices and then, we can take pictures of your property, do our publications and then it goes on this website and then people can buy your stuff.  And then you know, any earned income from that auction goes directly to us first, to recoup the costs of whatever the tenant owed us and then any costs of legal fees associated with it. And then anything that's left over after all of our money has been recouped, goes to the tenant, you know, cause they gotta be compensated for their stuff. So, we get paid first and then, but most importantly, we get our unit back and in multifamily or residential, they might trash the place. They're gonna do whatever they do. In storage, I mean, you can try to trash the place, but I mean, it's a box. And you know, we just sweep it out. They moved their stuff out and they're gone. And then, you know, for us, we just get our unit back and we let our customers know when they book, you know, Hey, sign up for our online auctions. You know, so they can bid on stuff and they can also know that, Hey, we do online auctions.  So a lot of places we take over, I mean, the delinquencies are a mess when we take over and that's a way to increase value. So we took over property last year, for example. And I just heard from our management that, you know, auctions were like, I mean, there were people that were 180 days delinquent and the manager just wasn't collecting on the units, they just weren't enforcing the rules. So we'll come in and we'll just follow the rules. You know, your lease says this, if you don't pay with this, you go to auction, you know, and then we make money on late fees. And some facilities that we take over don't charge late fees. I mean, if you don't pay on time, you should get charged a late fee. So there's a lot of different things we can do. You know, and plus we'll repaint, we'll redo the doors. Some doors of the old cabinet doors, you know, to open up the lock, the storage locker, we'll put the roll-up doors on them. We'll improve the lighting, we'll redo the asphalt, whatever it might be, we just get it nicer so that the customer feels safe and secure and they feel like they're getting good value for their money.  James: Got it. Got it. Got it. All right. Why don't you tell our audience how to get hold of you and your company?  Ryan: Yeah, sure. So my email is Ryan@spartan-investors.com. Our website is spartan-investors.com.  James: Awesome. Thanks for coming in and adding tons of value to our listeners and audience. Thank you.  Ryan: Yeah, you're welcome. It was nice meeting you, by the way.    

Ryan unpacks the different social media platforms and how you can use them to sell your product. He explains where you should start and then where you can test the waters next. Jon and Ryan also provide an update about what you need to know about the recently released Facebook Shops. TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Hey everybody, just a quick note before we jump into this episode, we recorded this episode on Selling on Social before Facebook Stores was launched, but everything we discussed still applies and is relevant. But stick around until the end, we are going to record an update on selling on social media with some details on Facebook Stores. So enjoy the episode and be sure to stick around towards the end, and you'll get an update. INTRO MUSIC Jon: So Ryan, it's probably a bit maybe cliche to say that everyone is on social media these days, but as a digital marketer, it's true, right? If you're not selling on social media platforms, are you really even trying to succeed? The more I thought about this, the more I thought at The Good we don't do anything around driving traffic, which obviously would include advertising or selling on social media. So I thought, "Why not learn a thing or two from Ryan and your 6,000 clients experience at Logical Position today?" So Ryan, I'm excited to have you, to school me on selling on social. Ryan: Oh man, it's such a big topic and such a big opportunity, I think, that so few brands are capitalizing on, fascinates me. Jon: Well, this will be fun then. So Ryan, let's start with the big picture, when I say social, what channels does that really include? Ryan: I would say when most people say social or selling on social, social advertising, they're most likely referring to Facebook and Instagram, it's the big 800 pound gorilla in the industry. But there are quite a few other platforms that I would probably bucket into that social platform and the advertising and traffic driving that you can execute there. You've got one that a lot of people forget, and it's probably unfortunate there, but Twitter, you can still advertise on there should you want to. Pinterest has some advertising, Snapchat, you can advertise on. LinkedIn is a social channel that a lot of e-commerce companies forget about, there's still some value to be gleaned out of there for e-commerce, but it is pretty lead gen heavy. Jon: Yeah, I love LinkedIn. Ryan: LinkedIn is great for our prospecting and finding just people that talk about it, there's a lot there. And I think it's under utilized for a lot of companies, but it's also, I think, confusing to a degree on how you sell on a business social tool. Do you have any e-comm clients that are doing anything on LinkedIn that you know of? Jon: No, I don't, but I thought that's such a great one that you could run some highly targeted ads on, pretty easily. Ryan: Yeah, if you know who your target market is, and if it's a... Just a conversation with a guy that was selling to doctors today, and I was like, "Well, if you're selling it to doctors and you know that there is a certain role at a doctor's office that always is responsible for finding your product or deciding to buy it, you could target all of those people on LinkedIn very easily." So I think there's opportunity there, I don't think it says much about, on LinkedIn at least, getting click-buy, it's part of the process generally. But with some of the other platforms too, like TikTok, for some reason has just jumped out at me over the last, just two weeks. We've actually had a bunch of clients reach out and say, "Hey, we want to get onto TikTok and do some advertising, how can you help us?" That came out of left field for us, we're like, we know it's there, but we were so focused on Facebook and Instagram with them that we hadn't been pushing for other channels. So, that was on us to a degree, so I think there's some opportunity on TikTok. And then the other one that I think a lot of people maybe think of differently, YouTube has a very strong social component. But it's because it's run through the Google Ads platform, most people don't bucket it under social, but I think there's a component there that, to a degree, could be looked at that way. Jon: Yeah, a lot of people are sharing YouTube videos, right? And it's got a massive comment thread on videos, and they do make social sharing on there easy so that's a good one to think about. Okay, so I had never thought about LinkedIn in the way you're talking about and really hadn't thought about YouTube, so that's really interesting, that's good to hear. And TikTok, I just feel like maybe I'm too old for it, but that's a whole different situation. Ryan: You and me both, that's probably why I didn't have it top of mind. I was like, "TikTok, what are you talking about? That's just Gary Vaynerchuk trying to get people to like his social stuff. Jon: Yeah, but I mean the minute he's talking about it, it's probably the immediate time to jump into it. Okay, so when I'm thinking about selling on social, are we really talking about advertising or actually selling, right? So for instance, I've seen brands that do Instagram Ads, right? And I've seen brands that actually make their posts shoppable, and you can actually complete a transaction on Instagram now. So are we really talking here about advertising or are we talking about actually selling? Ryan: Well, I think it's both. I mean, I like the old adage, always be closing, always be selling. Like if you're an e-comm site, you need to constantly be thinking about how are people going to find me and buy my stuff. And I think if you have the ability, because not everybody can check out on Instagram, or every brand doesn't have that access, let me put it that way, not every site can just flip a switch and automatically be selling on Instagram without leaving the platform. It's still in controlled level, you have to have enough followers or you have to be invited into betas to a degree. But you want to sell as often as possible, and I think having that extra channel, if you can get that conversion on Instagram without them leaving, you do it. But all of them I think you're going to be advertising on, even if you can have the checkout on Instagram rather than your site, you're still going to be advertising to draw people to that checkout or to your page, and constantly try to find new users. And I think Facebook and Google both have a lot of creepy data, it's not a surprise to anyone, and I think Facebook even gets slightly more creepy, but it is phenomenal for marketers. We can upload a list of our clients, and then Facebook's algorithm can go find everybody on the world that looks like your current customers because they're more likely to be buying. If I buy your product and like it, you go find everybody else that has the same demographics as me, whether it's on a farm, has four kids, has too many businesses, there's maybe 10 of us out there. Jon: But all of them will buy. Ryan: But all of them will probably buy your product. So be thinking about both, I think, because of the algorithm. A lot of people forget about this, but the Googles and the Facebooks of the world, the dominant ad platforms, they've created a free platform for everybody and they make money by ads, and so they have an incentive to get people to click ads. And so on Facebook, not everybody that follows your brand, Facebook and Instagram, not everybody that follows you will see your post. And so promoting posts, getting your ads out there, you have to feed the beast, to a degree, and make sure that you're leveraging the ad platform appropriately to get the right content in front of the right people. Jon: Got it, okay. So where do you recommend brands start then? What channels and how would you best utilize those channels if you're just starting out? Ryan: Some of it depends on the size of the organization and the budget to start with. If you're already a $10 million online brand and you hadn't advertised on social, that would surprise me, but it probably exists somewhere. You could probably start a little more aggressively than somebody that hasn't hit their first $100,000 in online revenue yet, but the general rule of thumb that I have for most brands is start with remarketing on Facebook and Instagram. It's all done through the same platform on Facebook, since they own Instagram, and if you're remarketing to people that went to your site and didn't purchase, you'll get a good gauge of what kind of potential Facebook and Instagram have. So if people that went to your site didn't buy, come back and buy through remarking ads at a rate that makes sense for your company and your products, it indicates there's potential for prospecting or finding new users that haven't heard of you yet. But if people, through remarketing, are not coming to your site and buying, it would lead me to hypothesize that finding new users is not going to be the best opportunity for through that social channel, because remarketing generally always works better than prospecting as far as the return on investment. So start there, and also understand that when you move beyond just the remarketing pixel on the remarketing ads, social is not like search, it's not a demand capture. People, for the most part, are not going to a social channel to find a product to purchase, generally you're interrupting their flow of connecting with friends and family or coworkers, and convincing them to click an ad to go outside of that flow to look at a product, it's something they probably hadn't been thinking about before. Jon: Yeah, that's such a great point. You really think about, at least in my business, around conversion, right, it's all about that capture and not the creation portion. And that's a really great point that if you are able to create that demand and then make it easy to do the capture or conversion at that point, then you're really going to see some great return on that ad spend here. Ryan: Yeah, and understand too, that generally as you move up the funnel of purchase, the return on ad spend drops, but I think it becomes more important as you're driving people to your site off of a social channel, to focus on that conversion optimization. You want them to be sticky and you want them to buy then, if at all possible, remove as much friction as humanly possible on social traffic because once they leave, go back to the social platform, you're no longer top of mind, now you're going to be remarketing to bring them back in. So it probably extends the purchase life cycle, if I could say it that way, when they're coming from a social channel. Not always, depends on how impulsive the purchase is, but you just have to generally be watching data very closely on social as you're looking to get sales there. Jon: Okay, so let's say a brand has been successfully selling on social already, what's the next step you would recommend? Ryan: Probably the same as with all of your marketing, it's test, test, test again, test again, test again, and not ever be satisfied with where you're at. You'll be trying out new ad sets, maybe if you haven't done video before, you need to do video, you're going to be testing new platforms. And so this is one where it's easy to get stuck on Facebook and Instagram and assume that that's your social media marketing, that's it, you're done, you've got it covered. But if you take me for example, I don't know how many years ago, maybe... gosh, I'm getting old, but what is it 15 years ago that we started on Facebook, maybe? I don't remember when it came out, but probably a while ago, and I was on Facebook for a while, thought Instagram was really stupid, why would people just not want to read anything, they just want to look at pictures, and then realize, "Oh, Instagram is pretty cool." I no longer really go to Facebook, I am on Instagram because it's easier to scroll through the feed maybe, but I'll go in maybe once a week and check on Facebook. My mom's on Facebook now, she's not that interesting to me to follow on Facebook. She's retired, she sits at home and it's just not as interesting. And so people are going to constantly be moving from platform to platform, I think. And I think as Instagram ages, we'll probably move to something else. People have moved to Snapchat, maybe it's going to be TikTok. Jon: TikTok, there you go. Ryan: Who knows? But you want to be making sure that you're aware of the demographic shifts, maybe the baby boomers start moving on to Instagram in a heavier flow, and all the gen-xers like myself were going to fall off and go somewhere else because we don't want to be hanging out with our parents on social media. Jon: Yeah, this is what's really interesting to me about social media, it's so easy... and I think as an outsider, obviously I'm not printing campaigns, but it's so easy to target different demographics because it's pretty clear what channels they're on. If you want to advertise to the teenager, you're going to advertise on TikTok, that's just generally where they're going to be right now. They're not going to be on Facebook, we know that. But if I want to advertise to Ryan's mom, I'm going to go to Facebook, right? It's just where it is. So yeah, that's something to definitely think about, but what I'm hearing from you is the core tenants of digital marketing apply to social, right? So whether you're doing ads from Google or you're doing ads on Facebook, it's really the same core tenants, it's just a little bit different, perhaps, on the execution. Ryan: Yeah, and the important metrics are going to be a little bit different. So whereas Google's algorithm is fairly advanced, and we have a lot of really quality data around quality score, for example, we know what goes into it, we know what makes up a quality score, and how to manipulate it to get a higher one. Whereas some of that information on Facebook isn't as readily available, and there's more testing and measuring to figure out what is going to work and what's going to be a good click through rate. It may be different for different ad sets, and there's a lot more visual ad types you can create on Facebook than maybe just text ads and shopping ads on Google. Understand it's different, but it's all the same thing, we're always looking at data and deciding what to do based on what the data is telling us. And on their demographic point too, there are young people on Facebook. And so if you do want to target younger people, you just set your targeting for younger people. You may not spend as much as you could on, say, Instagram or on maybe TikTok and be going to teenagers, but there's millions and billions of people on each platform so there's a lot of eyeballs. Jon: So would you recommend then that when a brand is looking to choose a social channel to sell on, that demographics would be their first elimination point? Or I'm hearing from you that, obviously there are, yes I agree, there's younger people on Facebook as well, perhaps, but would you still recommend demographics be that first deciding point where to start at choosing a social channel to sell on? Ryan: That's probably going to vary quite a bit depending on the brand and what you're selling. I mean, almost across the board, I'd probably recommend most companies start for the first time on Facebook, Instagram. It's a mature platform, you really know what to expect out of it, people expect to see ads, click ads and go somewhere else, and get basically their flow interrupted, it's not an uncommon thing to see an ad and click. I mean, I remember one of the best ads on Instagram was somebody that showed me a paddleboard surfboard with a rocket engine on the bottom of it. And I was like, "I didn't even know I needed that until I saw that on Instagram, and now I need to spend $2,000 on that even though I don't have-" Jon: Now you can be lazy during your workout. Ryan: Exactly. So start with what's known, where there is a lot of talent to execute for you, because there's not a lot of people right now that are TikTok marketing experts on the planet. And so if you're going to go off and start on TikTok, it may be much more difficult to get the goals that you want achieved there. Start there and then branch out as you see data, so set the demographics, knowing let's say you're going to target the younger demographic, and so people that are 18 to 24. You start on Facebook, Instagram, set your target demographics there, see how many there are, see how they respond, because you have a lot of... a mature platform is just easier to work on generally, knowing that you probably want to end up on TikTok as well, Snapchat, and expand out of that once you have a baseline to say, "Okay, I know that Facebook, Instagram, I get this return on ad spend, let's see how TikTok actually works for my brand as far as a return." Jon: So, I get asked this question all the time, Ryan, what's a good conversion rate, and people don't like my answer, generally, because- Ryan: Better. Jon: Yeah, one that's improving, right? That's generally how you should be thinking about it. Is there a goal for brands when it comes to selling on social, should we be thinking about specific goals or is there a percentage of a brand's overall revenue you prefer to see coming from selling on social? What are the metrics that you think are most impactful, and are there general standards for those metrics that people should be aiming for? Ryan: Unfortunately, no, it is very similar to the CRO question that it's an improving one, and you've got to look at your brand and who's buying, why they're buying, and where are they buying. So if you sell CNC machines online, you're probably not going to get a lot of direct conversions out of social for that. But it's an awareness thing, you can do some good top of funnel work there, that maybe it's not necessarily the final attribution is coming from social, but it is on the path. And so I think it's only going to get more and more complex as we continue to get more ways to engage with people through different channels, that I would probably never be able to put an exact number on it. But one thing I do like doing, and I do this in my own brands, I keep each marketing team siloed to a degree, so the Google Ads group, the social media group, I generally, personally at least, don't want the same team doing both because I want them both competing for a share of my sales. I want them to say, "Hey, the social should be bigger." Okay, if the same person's running Google and social, they may not care which one's bigger, they just want to push where it's maybe easier. And I think there's always a chance to win on social or win on Google, but I want hungry teams that are going to make that channel work no matter what. And so I would say, I always want it to be more but I also don't want to lose money. Anybody can sell a million dollars through Facebook, but some companies, it might cost you 20 million to sell that one million and so it's not worth it. So you just have to be aware and monitor what's happening and where that social channel fits for your brand. One of my brands, I haven't even gotten it on social advertising yet, I'm still Matt trying to max out Amazon and then I'm going to try to max out Google, and then I'm going to try to push on social. So there's so much you can do that it becomes mind boggling at some point to where you can be pushing a brand. Jon: Awesome. Well, I think we've sufficiently tackled this topic. Do you feel the same? Ryan: I mean, it depends on who's probably asking that question, but I feel like at least we've covered a topic and we've gotten some good insights. Jon: So Ryan, we promised at the start of this episode that we'd provide an update on the just released Facebook Stores, and I'm counting on you to educate me because quite honestly I heard about it, but I did not read anything about it. So can you give us a quick overview of what Facebook Stores is? Ryan: Yeah, so welcome to the world of e-comm, where things change more rapidly than we can produce podcasts, but it means it's fun and things are constantly changing. So Facebook Stores is basically what it sounds like, it is a store for your business on Facebook properties, mainly Facebook and Instagram. Allows people to checkout on the platform, many companies were, at least, aware of the checkout on Instagram feature that was in closed beta for a while, so it's basically all of that rolled into one. Facebook has an entity they're trying to release quickly to help local [inaudible 00:21:06] that maybe never had a website, offer the ability to transact online, at the boiled down version of it. Jon: Okay, and do you think this was in reaction or response to COVID and a lot of retail not being open? Ryan: I think that was the initial thought, but I think it was also quite an opportunity for the Facebook engine to push into e-comm with a lot of people paying attention, and that's a very easy release at that point. Jon: Great, and so it's separate, because I know Instagram is owned by Facebook, but it's separate from, or is it somehow linked to Instagram? I know you could sell on Instagram for some time now, not necessarily in a store, but you can do shoppable posts. Ryan: You can do shoppable posts, but those still take you to your website for transaction. There was that swipe up feature that was very popular, if you get over 10,000 followers, you get automatically put into it if you're a verified Instagrammer. A lot of value to those, we've seen some great data, but this is the next iteration of that, which is you don't have to leave the Instagram platform to transact. Once you've transacted on Facebook or Instagram, they store your data if you want them to so you can easily transact without having to put any data in. So just kind of try to make it as seamless as possible. So a great [inaudible 00:22:26] I believe, but one of the things people are going to realize as they start doing their research is when you have such massive organizations that try to move nimbly and quickly, there's some struggle. So by no means is Facebook Stores just [inaudible 00:22:41] working for everybody as they think it would at this exact moment. In fact, even me personally, my wife and I are trying to get our businesses up on Facebook Stores, like with Shopify a couple days after it came out, did not work. It was not just a click a button, you are going. You've got to have some things in place that will allow your business to work, and so obviously you've got to a Facebook page, so if you don't have [inaudible 00:23:08] out there. If you're going after people that are in the younger [inaudible 00:00:23:14], younger than baby boomers, you should probably have an Instagram profile. You need to have a platform that can easily get products into Shopify, and so this where Facebook and their post called out a few partners in the intro that came out right after Zuckerberg's live thing, where they say, "Hey Shopify, BigCommerce, WooCommerce, ChannelAdvisor, CedCommerce, Cafe24, [inaudible 00:23:44], and Feedonomics can all [inaudible 00:23:46]. I don't think all those integrations are perfect yet, and I've tested on some Shopify sites where you can add the Facebook Commerce Manager, get the Facebook shopping plugin, the Instagram shopping plugin and it's be live [inaudible 00:23:59] not perfect. So I think that most businesses have to realize going into this is, if you've never been online before [inaudible 00:24:08] to accomplish that you've ever done. If I'm seeing articles and blogs from people, the e-comm experts not being able to do this, the switch, just with their knowledge, then I would say at least test measures and things, test [inaudible 00:24:22] things. If you get stuck, there are going to be a lot of blog articles, there are going to be a lot of help things within Facebook trying to solve these problems, but you're going to need some patience for sure. Jon: So Ryan, knowing all of that, how does one get access to Facebook Stores? Ryan: You need to go in and set up Commerce Manager, and so that's step one, like a great digital marketer that I am, I just go Google, Facebook Commerce Manager and find it. It wasn't as simple for me to find inside the Facebook platform, you also want to have a site like a Shopify, BigCommerce that already has a plugin for it, so you may need a plugin on that. Our Shopify site, we had to put a plugin on the site to get to send inventory over to Facebook, you've got to have something sending those product details over, along with inventory, what's available. Every business that has a Facebook page should be able to do Facebook Stores, but that doesn't automatically open up Instagram Stores, or so we're finding. There's a lot of misinformation out there, so you need to do some research on your own and see your business is able to do certain things. There were some articles that my wife came across that said, "Okay, if you try to do an Instagram Store, you can't do a Facebook Store and vice versa." I don't think that article is necessarily true, but the Instagram Stores or the Instagram checkout is still closed beta if you go to that page on Instagram. Jon: Okay. So, we should state that there's a lot in flux here, right? And we're doing our best to get this information out quickly, but things are changing rapidly is what I'm hearing from you as well. Ryan: For sure. So we're recording this today, and people are going to get access to it probably in a week and there's going to be constant change until we get to a homeostasis in the Facebook Stores environment, and so we'll probably have to do an update a little bit later. But as of now, just know that there's a lot of moving pieces at this point, and if you're on a platform that doesn't have an integration already built into Facebook, it's going to be much more difficult for you to get that thing set up. Jon: Okay, so what does Facebook cost? I assume they're not doing this for free. Ryan: It'd be nice if everything was free, but unfortunately Facebook is a business, and they have an obligation to shareholders to make money, nothing wrong with that, they do provide a service for free for people getting their own profiles. But as of now, they are charging 5% per transaction, now that is great in some areas, it does say that includes taxes and processing fees. And so that could be good, but I do have some struggle with that because if your business already has nexus in Washington, for example, you need to be collecting all of the sales taxes in Washington, which add up quickly. If you sell in Seattle, you're getting charged almost 10% sales tax up there, that that 5% just can't cover taxes. So that's how I know a lot of this is going to be changing and updating, because I'm not sure that it built out everything for tax collection perfectly. Because when you jump into e-comm and you have stores like mine and they sell on Amazon, their website, retail storefronts, I mean there is so many potentials for tax nexus they had to be collecting that Facebook sells a unit there, I'm on the hook actually as a merchant for that. And so that's where stores need to be aware that that's there. If Facebook doesn't collect the tax, nothing on them, I mean, they're not coming to Facebook for that, they're coming to the person that actually sold that product on Facebook for the tax. Jon: Right. So definitely something to keep track of, and I think we both know in e-comm, and there's whole companies dedicated to just helping you figure out your commerce tax situation. And it's down to the street level at times, local taxes and sometimes stuff like that. Ryan: Yeah, good luck in California, it's just not going to happen. Jon: So since this was released, and it is in beta as we were kind of talking about, what do you think is still being worked out with Facebook and their Stores platform? Ryan: Some of it, I think, is going to be that cost, like they want to have something that works and keeps it simple. But as of yet, I haven't seen how you can simplify commerce to a flat rate for everybody in every possible scenario. So I do think that's going to adjust somehow, and Facebook is potentially opening up for a local store that's never had a website, to sell across Facebook, which is a massive opportunity, but also adds in massive complexities to a small local business that [inaudible 00:29:10] had to consider before. Especially if you're in Oregon, where we don't have sales tax, that's just kind of a foreign thought to us that, "Hey, I can go anywhere I want, I buy something and whatever it says on the tag, I actually pay versus not having to worry about tax." Whereas I go to Washington, there's all kinds of taxes added on that as an Oregonian I'm just not thinking through. So an Oregon business, you have to be aware that most of the country charges sales tax, and if that collection's not there, how do you do it? And maybe Facebook has taken some liability in some of their fine print saying, "Hey, we're going to charge 5%, and we'll make it right, some how, some way." I don't necessarily think that Facebook shareholders [inaudible 00:29:50] too keen on that. Jon: Yeah, not for permanent, right? But I could see them doing that upfront to get users and to kind of buy their way in. Ryan: Yeah because it would be great if you could simplify processing and taxes into just one number to [inaudible 00:30:05]. You're just taking 5% and I'm done, that would be huge, and I think a great opportunity. Jon: I have to think, yes, we're in Oregon, so not really up on every other State sales tax, but I have to think that there's some States that have more than a 5% sales tax, right? So even just then, they would be losing on processing or any of the over right away. Ryan: Yeah, and it could be maybe they're pulling that from their small business fund that they talked about, where they say, "Hey, we're going to release a 100 million to small businesses." And so instead of giving them ad credits, they're just going to use some of that to collect the data. Because I think some of it Facebook needs is that data, because they've not done enough online commerce to actually have the data to know this is what it is and here's where things can go bad. Unless they hired some high up people at Amazon that have all this data that they could pull with them, I doubt it. Jon: Yeah. Well we all know that, and this perhaps is for a whole nother podcast, but we all know Facebook loves their data, so they'll get it one way or another. So is there anything we didn't talk about, you thought I should have asked you about Facebook Stores today? Ryan: I don't think so, I think as a business there's very little reason not to get into this channel and test it. Every business is going to have a different level of success with it, but if you're going to open up a massive channel, I think there's more risk to not exploring it than there is to explore it and put some of you inventory there and see what happens. I mean, I'm going to get all of my businesses on there that I can to say, "Hey, I want to be available where people are trying to transact." And if Facebook is successful at creating an e-commerce platform to rival the Amazon's or Google Shopping's, then I for sure want to be an early adopter into that system so I can get as much data as I can get to make smart decisions for myself and any of our clients. So I would say, get in, take some risk, take the time to study it, and just see how you can make it work for your business and your specific situation. Jon: Yeah, that's great advice. I mean, there's still millions and millions of people on Facebook, so it's a massive audience, right, and you might as well try to throw your store up there and see what happens. So, okay, great. Well, this is really helpful and I think it's a great add on, as we said, things are going to change rapidly with this, but hopefully this gets people started. They know where to look now, they have some understanding of what it's going to cost them, and why they should do it, and I think that's a great add onto this episode. So thank you, Ryan, again. And I look forward to doing an updated show in the future as things settle down with Stores. Ryan: Yeah, looking forward to it. Thanks, Jon.

Ryan explores whether you should or shouldn’t use PPC automation tools to assist you in your paid search efforts. The answer isn’t so simple. For all your PPC needs check out: https://www.logicalposition.com/ What's covered today: What is PPC Automation? Should we use it? What are the benefits to Automation tools? What are the drawbacks to Automation tools? TRANSCRIPT Jon: All right, Ryan. Today we're going to talk about PPC automation, or pay-per-click automation. Now Ryan, I've been hearing a lot about pay-per-click automation tools. Now, this is mainly with brands who are doing one of two things. I see it when they're either trying to save a dollar by not working with an agency, and they think, "Hey, automation can help me do all of these things that my pay-per-click agency is doing for me." Or, they're just trying to scale their traffic up extremely quickly, and they see automation as the holy grail of them being able to do that. So, I'm really excited to learn about this, because I keep hearing about it, but I don't know much about it, and so I'm happy to have an expert to discuss this with. So let's just start by defining what PPC automation is exactly. Ryan: It's a big topic, and PPC automation can mean so many different things to different people. But high level, it generally means not touching certain pieces of an account, and having some type of computer system make decisions for you, within the Google or Microsoft Ads space, and it's even going into the social world as well. But basically, something gets done without a human touching it. Whatever that looks like, it's from high level computers. Jon: So, it's not an all or nothing. Because I was just looking at this as an all or nothing, like you're either using automation to run your PPC, or you're not. But you're telling me that just having some automation built in can actually be beneficial, as opposed to just going full automation. Ryan: Yeah. And there's different thoughts on that, just like everything online, even in CRO, I'm sure that it has to do with... Everybody's got an opinion, and it's different than everybody else's, on what works or what doesn't. It's based on their experiences or what they've seen, or what they've been told. And so, you've got extremes, where Google Smart Campaigns are an automation in Google Shopping, that will literally do everything. All you do is give it a budget, and what your return on ad spend wants to be, and it goes and does that. If it can be accomplished in the system, it will do it. If your return on ad spend goal was too high, for example, it's just going to sit there, and not really spend any money. If it's really low, it's going to spend a lot more money, and get you a lot more clients because the potential's there. Jon: So you're telling me automation can't solve all of my hopes and dreams. Ryan: I wish it could. There's some people that will promise you that, for sure, but if anybody is telling you that, they are lying, or they have an ulterior motive in place for you and your business. And on the other side, there are ways to use automation that help but don't necessarily do even the work in place of a human doing the work. And, as with most things, and my most common answer, which is also my least favorite answer in questions about digital marketing, is, it depends. Where should your business lie in that space around automation, specifically in the PPC realm? It's going to depend on where your business is at in the life cycle, what you're able to afford as far as agency or humans doing work, and what are the long-term goals of the business, or what are you trying to accomplish? Ryan: And so, let me take it in a few phases I guess, in kind of explaining what I believe in automation. You've got the full automation, where you're just going to either use a tool, or, for most businesses, use Google's Smart Campaigns in the e-commerce world to spend money for you in Google. I think in some spaces it does make sense, but it also comes with a very large asterisk, where you're having Google do all of this work for you to grow your business, but Google's goals, generally speaking, are different than yours. As a big, publicly traded company, they have responsibilities to their shareholders to grow their revenues and profits, just like you as a business owner have a responsibility to yourself or to your employees to grow revenues and profits. So for most businesses, Smart Campaigns and full automation in Google is not my recommendation, and it is mainly around understanding what's going on in your account and the ability to really scale. Ryan: But small advertisers, just starting up, you've never spent before, you really want to see if your business online has some legs to it if you start spending money, I do think Smart Campaigns within the Google space do have a place to play in that. And if I had to put a line in the sand, probably somewhere around $500 or less a month in ad spend to kind of prove a model. My wife, for example, would make me prove something to her before we actually jumped with both feet into a business and say, "Yeah, let's throw a bunch of money at it, and really see if it works." She'd say, "All right, let's kind of see what happens if you just kind of let Google do something on the side here to see what happens with 500 bucks over a couple months, 500 a month for a couple months." I think there's something there. Ryan: On the other spectrum, no automation, where you are 100% customized, doing everything either with an employee or an agency internally running an account on Google and Microsoft. That has a place to play, and I think that pool of companies where that makes sense is probably in more of a mid-tier type business model where you're spending a few thousand a month, maybe as high as 10,000 a month, where you're really just one person doing all the work for you, and you can do a lot of customization, because generally when you're at that spend level, you're not the biggest, you're not the smallest, but you're having to compete with some of those biggest, and you need some of that kind of surgical precision to find those specific keywords, or specific searches for specific products that really makes sense for your company, and you've seen the conversion rates that work. Ryan: And then, the vast majority of businesses fall kind of in the middle, where you do need some automation, and you do need some human strategy and somebody else, and some humans touching the account as well. And so, focusing on the middle is where it gets most complicated. So, for the majority of businesses out there, it's how much, or what parts of the account really make sense there. Is it an internal employee with some automation? Is it an agency using humans, and some automation? And what goes first? Is it the automation first, with a human checking on it, and making sure it's working? That's going to be a broad spectrum within the space. Jon: So, I'm hearing that it makes sense to prove out a business. So, prove out a new product perhaps, somewhere where you're just going to spend a little bit of money, and you want to start and see if there's a good product market fit there. And if so, then it would make sense to expand beyond just automation. But it does have its use cases, which is great to hear. So, okay. So, you've talked a lot about, there's three tiers to be thinking about, right? And that that kind of messy middle is where "it depends" is usually the answer, which makes sense. So, let's talk about some tools around this. What are the benefits to using pay-per-click automation tools? You mentioned one of them being to prove out a marketplace, but in terms of the tools themselves, can you talk a little bit about what the automation does in that sense? Ryan: Yeah, so there's a lot of different areas of PPC that you can actually automate. And a lot of PPC automation came about, let's say maybe 10 years ago it really started to get some traction, around bid management, and having some computer system actually automate the bid changes in the account, because it does get mundane. It does become difficult, in the middle of the night, for example, or around the clock, to be making changes in an account when you actually have humans working your account need some sleep. And so, bid management was really the beginning of the space. And so, that's constantly there. It's still there. Google even has automations built into their platform now around bids. They have enhanced CPC, which I believe, Jon, you had some fun with that setting when Google changed some settings around that. I believe you spent upwards of $200 per click on Google when we looked at your account together. Jon: Yes. That's where automation became dangerous. And again, I know nothing about this, right? And so, I thought, "Hey, I'll let Google handle it," and I clicked the box, and then ended up spending a lot of money. Ryan: Yep. Oops. And that, it happens. It's not, obviously, what happens all the time. But when automated systems get... be doing what they're told, I mean, they have to still have input from a human, they can do things that maybe aren't intended, and that is really the big thing you have to be aware of in using automation. They're really as good as the inputs you're giving them, or the person designing the algorithm. And so, heavy trading algorithms are really impacting stock markets all over. And so, big drops, big swings up and down can happen because of automation. So, you just need to be coming in with some concern or just awareness that that can happen, so you're watching it, no matter what level of automation you're using. Ryan: But there's bid management, there is automated campaign management. In fact, one of my competitors that's been around for even longer than us, and they actually have a really good name in the marketplace, they built some automated systems to take search queries that converted and build them into ad groups automatically, because that became some of the more mundane time-draining things that were happening, when you'd see a search for this specific product that you hadn't seen before, you're like, "Oh, that converted, that's great, let's make sure there's not more of that out there. Let's build a specific ad group for that search and capture all of it." Great strategies. And so, the main argument that a lot of agencies that are using automation and automated systems that are helping internal employees and agencies scale is you can spend more time strategizing on growth and let these automated systems do a lot of the stuff that are just sucking time away from maybe the things that are more mundane and you don't need to be spending high-powered talent on doing those things. Very logical. I mean, there's no scenario in which that sounds like a terrible idea. Ryan: What's happened with that, that I've seen over the last 10 years, is a lot of agencies have adopted this automation, and it's allowed for tremendous amounts of scale, without having to develop a bunch of humans to understand what's going on, or to know how to communicate with clients, which is in no way bad. But what's happening is as this scale is happening at a lot of agencies that I'm seeing their accounts is they're losing their touch with what's going on, and then how to strategize for actual growth because this tool is doing so much of the work, that they can't go in and say, this client may say, "I really want to start doing this," or, "I want to move my return on ad spend goal to this," or, "Should I be breaking into this market?" And because these tools are doing so much of the work, that question isn't as easily answered as if by somebody that was actually in the account all the time that saw the search queries, that was doing negative keyword reports, that was doing all these wonderful things, and bid management, that could actually respond very quickly and say, "Oh, here's what you need to be considering as a business owner or your marketing team when looking at this question." Ryan: And so, that's been one of my big concerns. I think about stupid, stupid movie, but Idiocracy, where you've got a guy that's been dead for so long, comes back and everybody's really dumb, and he was not smart back when he lived, but everybody got so much dumber because of automation and the world doing everything for them. I worry about that. I don't think it's happening across the board at agencies or internal teams, but I really have a lot of respect for groups of people, or agencies that have to be in the account regularly, and I see a lot better results, generally speaking, when somebody's in a Google Ads or Microsoft account making the changes, because they're seeing in real time what's happening in the market, and they have to have a lens where they're looking at things through and say, "Why is this happening? I have to go solve this problem or understand it a little bit more." Whereas, if a tool's doing all the work, they don't have to try to get in there and understand what's happening, or what is the competitor doing that's causing this to happen in this account. Jon: I heard you talk a lot about search and search ads and Google and, okay, so Google has some automation. Does Bing have automation? Microsoft Ads. Ryan: They do have some, and it's not as old as Google. So, I can't say that it works as good or has as many advancements because I also don't look under the hood and I don't understand all the engineers and what they're doing. Microsoft obviously has some very smart people and they're doing some great things in there. So, a lot of the same things you see in Google, Microsoft Ads also has a lot of that capability for automation, and I would use a lot of the same automation the same way depending on where you are in the business cycle and what is needed in your business. Jon: Okay. Now, what about social channels, because that falls under pay-per-click for me, right? Ryan: Yep. Jon: So, what about things like LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter? Is there automation built into those platforms? Ryan: There is some level of automation built into almost every platform, and I look at it almost the same no matter who or what platform it's on. It's an old example, but it still rings true. I wouldn't give all my taxes to the IRS to have them do them for me and tell me how much I owe them. We're diametrically opposed to what should be happening in that scenario. Jon: Right, success is different for each of you, right? Ryan: Exactly. Jon: Okay. Ryan: Exactly. So, if Facebook is doing everything for me and I'm just giving them a credit card and hoping that it does well, there is a piece of Facebook that wants me to succeed, but Facebook's success is more important to Facebook than my business succeeding. They know that if my business fails, another one's going to come up. Same with Google, same with Microsoft, same with LinkedIn. It's all the same. So, I, having been in this for a decade, I step a little bit away from automation whenever possible and I say, "Okay, how can I understand this better? How can I try to beat what the automation is doing?" Because what I've seen a lot of times with the engineers that build automated tools, way smarter than I am, as far as coding, math. I mean, it's not even close. But we're coming up with a strategy of maybe why this should be bid up or bid down, or maybe why this keyword should or should not be in the account. Ryan: I've still seen the humans making better decisions on that, and I think the machines and the AI is a very popular term. Artificial intelligence, everybody wants to be able to say that they do have a lot of that in their agency or in their organization, because it sounds really good. Like, "I've got this artificial intelligence that's really pushing growth and doing a lot of my thinking for me." Again, not bad at all, and I actually recommend businesses step into that space to understand it more and to use it where it's appropriate. But I still think when you have human searching and the change is constantly happening, we know that something like 15% of all searches done on Google every 90 days have never been done before. So, what is an artificial intelligence going to do with a search term that's never been done before? It can gain some insights possibly, but as we're blending in search query reports now voice search with text search, like, I type it into my computer or I search for it on Alexa or Google Home. There's a lot of different intent behind that. I've seen better results from humans looking through that and being able to filter it. Jon: Right, right. Especially working with natural language and understanding the intent behind what people are searching versus just what they say, right? Ryan: Yeah. Yep. Jon: Okay. Ryan: And so, yes, companies need to be looking at automation and considering the opportunities available, and then how is that going to compliment what they currently are doing? I don't ever look at, long-term, replacing humans... I mean, again, in the next five years that will be my long-term view. You can't predict anything in the digital space beyond five years, and really, anything longer than a year is, you're throwing darts at a dartboard way far away. But I don't foresee any time soon where I would be comfortable with my money on full automation, no human looking into that or doing it, or having a serious play within that space. I spend a decent amount of my own money on all these platforms, and I see the automation. I know the biggest players in the space. I mean, if you're in the PPC world, Marin, Kenshoo, Adobe, Acquisio. Probably hundreds of others that are doing the same thing in bid automation, in addition to Google and Microsoft, including Facebook will do some bid automation based on goals. There's no shortage of those. There's no shortage of very, very smart people working to create the next best automation. Jon: I think you made a good point earlier, and that's something I think you just touched on right now even, but it's in the favor when you do bid automation of Facebook or whoever to have that bid go up and up and up, right? So, automating means that escalation seems to happen more quickly. Is that not true? Ryan: Yeah, I mean, we saw it in your account, right? Where you were averaging in your business $20 a click, which is reasonable, based on how you spend money and the returns you get. But then all of a sudden, if everybody is on automation and everybody's using Google's automation on Google, how does Google know who's going to win? Does Google play, you know, make it socialist where everybody gets 5% because there's 20 people advertising, so we're going to even it out and make everybody little? How do you grow beyond that? And that's where logic comes into my side and says, okay, we can't all be on automation or there's just, there's no win. There's only so many ways you can look at moving bids up or down, for example. They can only move up and down, they can't move sideways, they can't move diagonal. And so, it's understanding more about the user as we add layers in from a remarking perspective, from an RLSA perspective. The more information we have about this user allows us to get more aggressive or less aggressive than maybe a competitor that doesn't have that information. Ryan: And so, all of these layers we add on add complexity and give opportunity to people that have that data. So data is actually probably, in my opinion, more valuable than some automations. The more data layers you can get, and you can get lost in data, so don't get me wrong, the idea that "Oh, big data, all you need to do is look in all these thousands of Excel sheets to figure out where that one specific customer is that you want and go find them and bid on them." It's more about using that as you're making adjustments and using the understanding and strategy behind why you may or may not be making this move. Ryan: It's fascinating, when I look at all the people I've hired in the digital marketing space and the people that have really succeeded on the backend of making the moves in an account. It's really, from a human perspective, becoming an art form in how you look at a Google Ads account, and you're kind of, I joke with the guys and girls on the team, or ladies on the team, that it's kind of like the Matrix, where you're looking at just all of these digits flying around. And the really good paid search account managers in the account really see it in a much different light than somebody like myself that would go in and say, "Yeah, okay, I see it says $200 and it says conversion." They're seeing all these different layers because of their experience. I mean, some of our people have been doing this for over a decade, 15 years actually, in the accounts, doing it, and they're so efficient and so crazy of what they can do. Ryan: And we've matched that up with people that are very good at gaming, like, the strategy piece of gaming. And so, really, we're looking at almost the gamification of digital marketing, where we're looking at these and saying, "All right, you're trying to beat these other advertisers." I'm a hyper competitive individual, as you know, and you're pretty darn competitive as well, in your basketball and marketing world. I want to win. And we find people that really want to win, and then they add their ability to see all of these moving pieces and saying, "Hey, if that competitor of our client goes out of business, that's unfortunate for that company, but it's really good for us and our client." Ryan: It becomes fun but also interesting in how you're taking that human that is really good at paid search management, and what we're trying to do is kind of make, right now my best analogy is kind of the Terminators. How are we using technology and bolting it on to them to make them more effective at what they do? Rather than replacing it, how do we give them things they can look through with weird glasses or things they can add onto their mice? What are we doing to make them more efficient as a human, and that's how we look at technology and automation. Jon: So next time I visit Logical Position, I'm going to be interacting with a bunch of cyborgs basically. Ryan: I mean, hey, if my vision comes in place. I mean, maybe two years out on that one. Jon: Dart board, right? That's one of the darts. Ryan: Yeah, one of the darts. But it's... I think the best use of PPC automation, personally, and this is my lens I look through and how we're looking at automation internally at Logical Position is, for the majority of companies in the middle, it's, how are you supplementing the humans? Instead of replacing them, how are you making them able to do more? So, we use, scripts are a great automation that a lot of people don't think about. We're using scripts to say, "All right, this ad group had a hundred impressions by 6:00 AM yesterday and it has zero today. What just happened? Something is broken there. Let's go in and see that." Replacing some of that minutia or things that just get really bored or tedious, or we just don't have the scale of a human in a large account to get to all of those pieces efficiently. How can we say, "All right, I need this to go do that"? Maybe it's not going to go through the search query reports for us and find all the negative, but it can bubble up some opportunities. Ryan: I've talked to a phenomenal technology company, Metricstory. If you haven't checked out Metricstory I think they're really cool, and they're really, man, they have some smart engineers. They're doing some automation where they're able to bubble up new opportunities based on scraping a Shopping search query report and saying, "Hey, these converted and they're actually not showing in your text ad or search portion of your account, from a search query perspective. You should put this keyword in there because it's converting on Shopping." And it can, based on their algorithm, their really smart algorithm, it can even give you an estimated return on ad spend, saying, "Hey, this keyword we think is going to get this based on ad groups around it." Ryan: So we're really looking at leveraging some of that in our efficiencies. Say, "Okay, if we have that, can we make this person able to focus more on bids on text ads because we have this filtering a search query report on Shopping?" Or we're able to find losers in the search query report on the text ad side much quicker than we could if we had to comb through it by hand. Jon: Yeah, this is a really interesting point, adding on to what people, the strategy that a human person can bring to this, with a little bit of AI, helps them to push this even further. But you still have to have the insight that somebody is bringing to the table with that experience to really pull out the meaningful changes. And I thought it was really interesting, you said earlier that aligns with this, bids and these automated bid machines, they only can go up and down. They can't go sideways or diagonal or any other dimension, right? And that's what a human is able to do. Ryan: It's a frustrating answer, but every company should be looking at kind of a backstop. And then also, if you're a company that has one person managing your account internally, I always had the worry as an agency of the bus theory, like what if they get hit by a bus? I told my team, nobody could take the public transportation because you can not be hit by a bus. We don't have enough backups. But in that scenario it's like, okay, well, who else is going to be aware of that? And it can't just be an automated system that's going to be continued going if they evaporated tomorrow, because it's unencumbered, you know, what's going on. Ryan: So, having some automation helping them, but also documenting things too so that an automation doesn't need to take all of it, but that another human could come in and replace or augment as well if somebody needs time off or pregnancy or birth or sickness, all these other things that we, at scale, with 750 employees here, we can do that automatically but a lot of companies don't have that ability. And so, they need probably a little more automation just to protect themselves but also ensure that there are some humans looking at things. Jon: Well Ryan, this has been extremely educational for me. Thank you for sharing all the knowledge around this. I am really looking forward to the day that I walk into Logical Position and I'm interacting with some cyborgs and then having you bring that skillset over to The Good so that we can continue to do the same on the conversion side. Ryan: Oh yeah. That looks fun, huh? Jon: Yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for educating me today. Really looking forward to not spending $200 unnecessarily on my own ads by checking a box for automation in the future. So, thank you for saving me on that earlier on. Any last words on this? Ryan: Of course, you can just send me a $200 bottle of wine and it'll be just the same. Jon: Perfect, I know what you like. It's in the mail. Ryan: No, I think it's good just to always be careful with automation. Don't assume it's going to work for you always. Just have smart humans working with you. Jon: Awesome. All right, thanks Ryan. Have a wonderful afternoon. Ryan: Thanks Jon.

Jon dives into why Conversion Rate Optimization doesn’t stop after the purchase and the different points after-purchase that you need to optimize in order to drive higher revenues. Link: The Essential Guide to Ecommerce Sales Promotions (https://thegood.com/insights/essential-ecommerce-promotion-guide/) (In this article, #51-78 are focused on promotions you can run that aren't discounts) Outline: First, Jon cover’s different points after purchase that CRO can have an impact: In cart, right after purchase -Thank you page Email post-purchase sequence: -Confirmation email -Shipping confirmation -Customer service -Please leave a review – just click here -Add to general marketing email list sends He also explains the metrics a brand should be looking at to track progress of post-purchase optimization: -Return purchase -CLTV -Conversion (overall, should go up with repeat customers!) Jon is a firm believer that companies shouldn’t use discounting in post-purchase communications. However, there may be offers you can make that are not discounts. You do not want to become a discount brand. Finally, Jon explains that a successful method for getting referrals post-purchase outside of a set loyalty program is just to ask! Very few do! Transcript: Ryan: Jon, today, I really want to move our focus to an area that I think many companies and individuals would not normally think of conversion rate optimization and the impact it can have. I'm talking about post-purchase. Most people generally would assume that once a purchase happens on the website, CRO has done its job, time to move to the next person on the site and get them to convert. But, because I know you, I'm aware that CRO doesn't stop at the purchase. There's a lot more to be done. Can you explain to people, that maybe aren't aware of post-purchase conversion rate optimization, what they need to be thinking about, what they need to be doing, and why it even exists after they've already taken the sale, done what you wanted them to do originally? Jon: Right, and I think that's an important point there, Ryan, which is that most people think that conversion optimization stops as soon as you get someone to purchase. I think that's really shortsighted and it's a big problem because so much of the consumer experience and getting people to purchase a second time, is all about what happens when they purchase that first time. So, if you get them to convert, your job's not done. At that point... you got to think of this like a marathon. You just ran a marathon. Most people who are seasoned marathon runners, they get through that finish line. They have a process they still go through to cool down, protect their body, recover a little bit. It's the same thing here. After you've- Ryan: ... And I just go drink beer. Jon: ... Right, exactly, and that's why you don't run marathons. Ryan: That's why I don't. Jon: Learned that lesson the hard way, huh? Ryan: Uh-huh (affirmative), I did. Jon: Yeah, so exactly, this is it, where we can't just stop and drink a beer. You've got to go through a follow-up process here that can really, really have a massive impact on your overall metrics of your site and success and revenue, and even your conversion rate, because most people don't think about that. But overall, your conversion rate should go up with repeat customers. Ryan: True. Jon: There's a handful of things you should be thinking about that I think we should talk about today. There's a bunch of different points after purchase that can have an impact with conversion rate optimization, and if you optimize these points, you will see higher revenues. Ryan: Okay, so somebody's purchased on my site or client's site. Action's done. Does post-purchase conversion rate start after the product arrives, or where's the first point that we can be making an impact to improve conversion rates in the future? Jon: In the cart. It starts right then. As soon as somebody completes the order, gives you their payment, what happens? Ryan: Hmm. Jon: Most of the time, people aren't really considering the first step, which is a thank you page. What is the content that you're putting on there? Now, there are ways to, even on that thank you page, influence so many extra metrics. You can influence your average order value on that thank you page. There's some great tools out there right now. One of my favorites is a company called CartHook. CartHook has a tool, where you put it onto your thank you page, and it actually shows you complimentary products to what you bought and says, "Do you want to add it to the order?" You're doing an upsell after the purchase. You already got them to commit, and maybe they're thinking, "I bought those shoes, maybe I'll add a pair of socks. Why not?" Ryan: Now is that in addition to maybe also having upsell in the shopping cart, or do you usually recommend just get them to commit to something and then try to upsell them later? Jon: Right. I think that's a big mistake people make is to do the upsells in the cart. I don't think that's serving the consumers' needs, because serving the consumers' needs is helping them complete that checkout as quickly and easily as possible. You want to get that conversion. That's most important, obviously. So, after you've completed that sale, then, go back and do the upsells. Now, that doesn't mean you're not doing upsells throughout the funnel and throughout the product detail page or categories, things of that sort, right, complimentary products. But I don't think you should be doing it in the cart. That's when you just closed the transaction, at that point. Jon: A lot of people like to think of it like retail, where you're at a grocery store and they have all the candy bars and magazines, and you're just standing there in line. It's not like that because online, you shouldn't be waiting around at the checkout. Those items are there at the grocery store line because you're waiting for the person in front of you. You're likely bored, and they're capturing your attention. It's a captive market. Well, when you're in the cart and you're checking out online, you just have one goal, and that's to get it done. So, anything you put in the way there is actually going to become a distraction and annoying for the consumer. Not something where, "You're entertaining me with the latest gossip about celebrities for five minutes while I'm waiting for the family in front of me that's scanning 300 items at the grocery store." Ryan: Oh, you follow me at the grocery store, huh Jon?" Jon: Exactly. I got one kid. I can't imagine having a whole family like yourself. I think the first step is definitely in-cart, on that thank you page. Pay attention to the messaging. You can run a lot of A/B tests on the messaging alone and see what resonates. But also, adding a tool like CartHook, where you're figuring out all of these additional metrics and how to increase things like customer lifetime value, average order value. All of that kind of even goes back into your ROAS, your return on ad spend. If you start thinking about it this way, the higher your average order value, the higher your return on ad spend. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Now, in addition to something like a CartHook offering up some complimentary products, is there any kind of messaging or kind of like, "Hey, I really want to make them feel good about what they just did. They spent money with me..." because most companies are like, "Hey, thanks. We'll be emailing you a confirmation," and that's pretty much the thank you page. Do you recommend adding more to that, or is it just kind of just get the products in front of them, get them in and out type thing? Jon: Well, we've actually run some tests, where brands who already participate in like 1% For Good or some of these other donation or charity causes, at that point, and reemphasizing that on the thank you page. Like, "Thank you for your purchase. Did you know part of your purchase is going to these great causes?" Ryan: Oh. Jon: Right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, what's happening there is you're actually just making somebody feel even better. You're reassuring them about their purchase. I think that's really important there, is the reassurance. I don't know about you, but sometime... like, I bought a new car six months ago now, maybe. There's nothing like the joy of driving the new car home. But then you're sitting at home and you're like, "I'm a little guilty. I feel guilty. I bought a new car today." You know what I mean? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: It's that thing where it's like, "I just dropped a lot of money on this." Yeah, it's awesome, but at the same time, I could have got a used car that had a hundred thousand miles on it and would have got me from A to B. It's the same thing when you buy online. You need to reassure people that... they probably didn't need what they bought from you. Maybe they had some need around it. But if you did a great job with your marketing sales and every everything else but your customer experience, you helped them see the benefit of a product that maybe had a little more cost to it than what they were planning to spend, but there's some value there for them. Sometimes that's just the emotional value. But, at the same time, reassurance is really key on that thank you page. Ryan: Got it. Okay, so we've got the thank you page dialed, we've got some upsells potential there, we've told them that they're amazing and they bought from an awesome company. Now, how do I go about encouraging future business from this customer of mine? Jon: Well, I think the first thing that really needs to be paid attention here is that what happens in email post-purchase. Now, most people don't think about this when they're optimizing a site. They usually just leave it to whatever the defaults are. So, if they're using Shopify, it will automatically send out some emails, depending on what email provider, using like a Klaviyo or something like that. It will have some of these built-ins with some best practices. But this is a ripe opportunity for optimization that most people are not thinking about. Jon: I always say there's five emails that should be sent out after a purchase. It's a huge opportunity if you're missing any of these five. Now, the easiest one, and the first, is always confirmation email. The order went through, all is well, it's received, we'll be shipping it on this date or soon. Just confirming everything's gone well, it's gone through. Just send them an email, and that email should go out immediately. There's no reason to hold on to it, even if you don't have a shipping date yet. It doesn't need to have tracking information in this email. It's just, "Hey, you know what, we have your money, your order, here's your receipt," right? Ryan: Okay. Jon: That's a good opportunity, at that point... I've seen this done very well, and I don't know what the tool is, but I should definitely look into that. I've seen this done so well, where they even do the upsell in that email. This happened to me last week. I bought some lights for my yard, solar lights, and to light up what's been real... we live in Portland. It's super dark here this time of year for long hours of the day. So, I'm driving home and it's dark in my driveway. Well, what I did, I went and I got some solar lights. Yeah, probably not the best for how dark it is here, but we'll move on from that. Jon: In the cart, it said, "Hey, you bought a certain number of these, did you want to add more?" That was a great in-cart experience and I decided not to do it. But then, I got the email right away. In that email, it said, "Hey, if you change your mind, you have four hours from when this email is sent to add a few more before we're going to start packing up your order, and you'll have to just place another order." And it said, "Click here to add four more, eight more or twelve more." It even had a discount on them. I thought that was really interesting. I wanted to see it, what would happen, just from a research standpoint, so I added four more to my order. It was great. It just took me right back to a page on the site that said, "Thanks, Jon. Here's your order number. We added four more to it. Your new total is X." Ryan: And you got a discount on it, on adding the four more. Jon: Well, it was because they didn't add any more for shipping those extra four, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, it wasn't a percentage off. It was saying, "Hey, we'll add these, but we won't charge you more to ship them." Ryan: Got it. Jon: Now, you could do a whole bunch of different items around discounting. We should definitely talk about discounting today, a little bit there. But I think the point here was, is that they had a captive audience. I'm going to look at my receipt email. Most people do. Ryan: Yep. Jon: It should be a highly opened email. So, it's a great captive audience and a great opportunity to do an upsell that nobody really thinks about. Ryan: No, yeah, and I can easily see how... you didn't take the complimentary products, but maybe you suggest something maybe even more different in the email, but offer a discount. Like, "Hey, add this in and we'll give you 10% off, and just include it in the order and it'll go out at the same time," or something. Jon: Right. And you think about it, it's a free cost of sale at that point for the retailers. So, there's really no additional cost in sending that email. You're already going to send the receipt. Email is super cheap as is anyways. But you don't have to advertise to them. You're not remarketing. You're not doing any of that that could add the extra cost. Jon: Okay. So, we have confirmation email. The second email is shipping confirmation. Once the order has shipped, let the consumer know immediately. "Your order has shipped. It's on its way. Here's the tracking number, and it should be there within this date range or on this specific day." Now, even if the tracking number is not available in UPS or FedEx or whatever at this point, because those can take 12 hours or 24 hours to show up in there, you can always just say, "Hey, this link won't show any results for X amount of time." But you should give them that right away because they're going to reference that, perhaps, throughout the order process or while they're waiting for the order. But I think it's a great opportunity just to confirm things have been shipped, all is still well, it's going to be there. Jon: It's a great opportunity, at that point, to also offer any resources. So, you can say, "Hey, you bought these solar lights. Let me include a video..." and this is exactly what they did for me. They included a video that showed me how to put them together, in that shipping confirmation. Ryan: Hmm. Jon: So now, I had something to kind of tease me a little bit until the products arrived. I thought it was super interesting because, not only was I just getting that shipping information, which normally I would just look at, but archive and save in case it didn't arrive, but I actually went through and reengaged with the brand by watching an installation video, which is a great opportunity. Now, when I get the product, immediately I can open the box and start using it. Right? Ryan: Oh, yeah. Jon: That's a much better experience. So, we've got confirmation email, shipping confirmation email, and the third email I always recommend is a customer service email. What do I mean by that? Well, this is just a check-in email. This should be a couple of days after the product was supposed to arrive. What should happen here is it should say something like, "Did you receive the product? Was everything okay? If not, just reply to this email and let us know." Pretty simple, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: It's a just let them know you're there, that they have a channel if there's an issue. And what you're going to do here, is you're going to prevent a negative online review. Because if they have a problem, they're not going to go online and vent. They're going to say, "Oh, you know what, I got that email from them. I'll reply to that email and try to figure this out." And then, you have an opportunity to turn a bad situation into a good one very quickly. You're preemptively handling that situation by just letting them know you're there. And if there's no problems at all, it's still awesome just to know that that brand is available for you and that they're there. Jon: I often recommend, have this email either go out the day the product should arrive, and you can say something like, "Your product should be arriving today. Let us know if you have any problems," and things of that sort. It's also another opportunity to send some more resources. If you want to link to more stuff up on your site, or there's... we worked with a company that sells tents. They did a really good job with this. It's like how to set up your tent, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: Because a lot of people struggle with that. They've gotten a lot easier over the years, but it's still something that required a little bit of knowledge. So, we've got confirmation emails, shipping confirmation, customer service, and then the fourth email I always recommend is please leave a review. This is a review request. Now, this should definitely go out a couple of days, maybe even a week, after they've gotten the product. The idea here is just make it so simple for them. There's a couple of tools that make this super easy. Shopper Approved. It does this extremely well. It's a reviews platform, where they just send out an email that asks for the review, and then it has five stars in the review, and it says, "Click the star that you want to rate." Ryan: Yeah, I've actually done that before and didn't even know I was giving a review. Jon: Right. It's one click. Ryan: It's phenomenally simple. Me, as an online marketer, I'm in it all day every day. Then I got a review email from one of the companies I bought from, and it was Shopper Approved. Blew me away. Like, "Wow. I actually just accidentally gave a five star review." I was going to give it anyway, but it was like, "Wow, that was ridiculously simple." Jon: Yeah, and that's exactly what it's about here, is just make it quick, make it easy, but ask for the review. Most people, at this point, don't ask for a review. They're asking for a review on their website, which I can promise you, nobody is going back to a website, from finding that product detail page for the product they purchased, and giving it a review. It's a huge red flag and perhaps we should do another episode, Ryan, on product reviews, because it's a huge red flag for consumer trust. Jon: If you see, on a product detail page, that you can leave a review, that tells me that there are so many unverified reviews on there. I don't trust what's being said anymore because the manufacturer or retailer could just be sending their entire family to that page. I want to know that they're actually verified reviews from people that have purchased and that's the only reviews that are in that mix. The best way to do that is just ask for it via email after the purchase. It's going to be a verified review. That also, and you probably know more about this though, Ryan, but that also allows you, if they're all verified, to have the star ratings show up on your product detail page listings in Google search results. Ryan: Yeah, exactly. You need to have a review aggregator that's approved by Google that's looked at their system and said, "Yes, you're actually getting legitimate reviews." I know there's some plugins on a lot of eCom platforms that allow people to just leave reviews on the site, like you said, and it doesn't build trust. Those can't be sent to Google. So, if your website is, "Hey, I got a place to get reviews. I've got 500 wonderful reviews on my website. How come Google is not allowing me to send them?" It's because you haven't used one of the 30, I believe, companies that are approved to send those reviews to ours, and Google trusts that they're legitimate. Jon: Now, you're not gaming the system, so that's helpful. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, five emails. Confirmation email after purchase, shipping confirmation, customer service, leave a review, and then the fifth is just add them to your general email marketing sends. So, whatever that next email marketing send is, just add them. Now, here's the thing. If you're going to send an email every day, or even every week, the cadence can't be the same as somebody who clearly signed up for your marketing emails on your site. Now, I'm suggesting sending them marketing emails, but maybe it's once a month. It's just some way to stay in front of them, and these emails should be more helpful. They shouldn't be, "Here's the big promotion we're running right now." It should be something like, "Hey, Valentine's Day is coming up. Have you thought about ordering by X date to ensure that you'll have it in time?" Ryan: And so on this, real quick though, you would, in theory, keep them out of your marketing emails until they get to this point. You don't want to automatically, you purchased, you're in my marketing email, and you're going to get a marketing email in the middle of this cadence of emails. Like, you don't want, "Oh, shipping confirmation." "Oh..." two hours later you got the marketing email. Jon: That's exactly right. I think that's extremely important that even if they signed up... okay, this isn't a tactic I recommend. You know I rail on this all the time. But even if you had a pop-up, and you offered a discount to sign up for the marketing emails on your site before they made a purchase, you need to hold those emails a reasonable amount of time, maybe a day or two, to see if they made a purchase right away. There's so many of these tools, like Klaviyo, that make that pretty easy to do, where you can just add an exception real quick to hold them until the next email blast or something. But I would wait for them to at least complete that purchase. If they complete the purchase, then don't send a marketing email until they've gotten the other four emails. Ryan: All right, so we've got an email cadence. We've got in-cart right after the purchase. Some of the things you can do on the thank you page. We touched on this a little bit, in the process of going through there, but in addition to CartHook and maybe the email platform you're using, are there any other CRO tools people can be utilizing or looking at when they're trying to improve post-purchase conversion rates? Jon: Well, I think that it's not as data-focused on tracking every click and movement at that point. So, it's less about the toolsets here. It's more about that customer experience. Email is going to be your biggest toolset here. Yes, there's a lot of stuff you can do to run tests and see how much people are engaging with that thank you page, and there's tools like CartHook and several competitors to them, but I don't think that being as data heavy at this part of the process is going to be very beneficial. Ryan: Got it. And a lot of that is going to be measured by lifetime value of your customers. Are they increasing or not? So, if your lifetime value was $500 and then you implemented a bunch of these things Jon's talked about, did it move to $700 or $800 over a course of the time period that you're outlining? Jon: Right. And there's really three kind of goals that you should have from doing this, and three metrics that you should be tracking by optimizing post-purchase. The first is that customer lifetime value, of course. We want to see that go up over time. What influences that? A return purchase. Did you give them such a good customer experience that they came back and purchased again? Another thing is number of reviews. That's a great one because people are only going to leave a review if they're satisfied or if they're deeply unsatisfied, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: That kind of mushy middle there, nobody really leaves a review, typically. That's why you very rarely will see like a three star review. You're going to see a five or a one, or a four, sometimes people don't like to give five unless... they reserve that for the one time a year. Maybe it's between four and one, but you see very few in between, typically. Then the third metric, besides those, that you should be thinking about is just your conversion. Your conversion rate overall should go up because of those repeat customers, in the sense that if you get more people to come back and purchase again, you should see your conversion rates go up because it's going to be an easier purchase, you're going to have more sales. So, it kind of feeds itself in this cycle. Ryan: Got it. So it's post-purchase conversion rates not something I've normally thought about, or even associate with typical CRO and what you're doing with customer testing and heat mapping and all these wonderful things you do onsite. Now, is generally post-purchase CRO a part of an overall CRO strategy or do you kind of separate them into like, get the purchase CRO and then post-purchase CRO? Jon: That's a great question. Now, my initial thought on that is that it is something that is built into what we do at The Good, and it should be part of a full conversion optimization. But it is a graduate level step. What I mean by that is if you haven't gotten into college and completed those courses of just getting the conversion, then there's no reason to focus on post-purchase yet. So, you really want to have a good customer experience up to that point, and then you can start working on post-purchase optimization. But it is an overall part of the CRO picture, and it really should be. Ryan: Now, one easy way to increase your conversion rate is to throw a bunch of discounts out, obviously. If people save money, of course they're going to buy more, generally. But how do you, or do you, recommend any discounting post-purchase? I kind of mentioned like, "Oh maybe I would throw a 10% discount out for complimentary products in an email." But that may be a bad idea. I don't know. Jon: Well, I'm not a proponent of doing discounts on a site at all. I really believe discounting is not optimization. I call it margin drain, because that's really what it is. Now, can you get more sales through discounting? People love a discount. It does work, but I'm not a proponent of it. I don't think you should be testing discounts, testing promotions in that way. There's a lot of other ways to be doing promotions that aren't just a straight up discount. And the reason is, and I say this all the time, once you bring a new-to-file customer in through a discount, your brand is forever a discount brand in the eyes of that consumer. And it's just not going to change. That means, every time you do a purchase in the future, you're going to have to offer a discount. It's just what's going to be expected. They're never going to want to pay retail price because that's not what the expectation is. Jon: But there are ways around this that are still intriguing offers that aren't discounts. We actually have an article up on our site. We'll have our producer put it in the show notes. But there's an article that we have up on The Good that's something like 90 or 100 different types of offers that you can do that aren't discounts. Ryan: Oh wow. Jon: There's just an unlimited number up there, it seems like. Now, things like buy one, get one, bundling. I mentioned, just earlier, how the company got me by saying, "Hey, we'll add four more to your order without charging you more for shipping." So, you can do things like shipping promotions. Free shipping should be something that you're considering. If not, look at a better fulfillment partner, perhaps, but there's a lot of options out there. That you're allowing people to upgrade their shipping speed. Ryan: Yeah so, one final point, I think, in the post-purchase thing. Something you and I do a lot of between our organizations is referrals. I'm always referring business over to Jon and Jon's very good at referring business to us. But in the eCommerce space, very rarely do I get asked to refer somebody else. I just bought this product. I'm really excited about it. I mean, more than likely, I'm going to be willing to refer, but very rarely do I get asked about it. And a lot of times it's... there may be a loyalty program system out there that does some of this, but what do you suggest companies do to increase some of that potential for referral? Jon: Just ask. I think, as you mentioned, so few do, and there's... most eCommerce managers are spending all this effort and money in affiliate programs, where they're getting people to recommend their product in exchange for an affiliate fee. But they ignore the power that people who actually buy can have. And I think that's a mistake. They really should be thinking a lot about how can we just get somebody who purchased, and is happy with that purchase, to be a referral source? One of the things you can do is, in that email chain that I mentioned of those five emails, instead of asking for a review, you could ask for a referral at that point, right? Ryan: Yeah. Jon: You could mix it up and do a 25% you're asking for referrals, 75% you're asking for a review, however that mix is that you'd like. There's a lot of options there. But the reality is, is all you have to do is ask, and it should cost you nothing at that point. You could offer them a gift in exchange for making a referral, something of that sort, or have a loyalty program that you're doing. There's some great tools out there. I'm a huge fan of one called Smile, smile.io. Smile.io, however you want to pronounce it. But there's a handful of these out there that do a really good job with the loyalty programs. And one of those is asking for referrals and doing it at the right step in the process. Just so few people do it that it blows my mind. Ryan: Is there a right or a wrong way to ask for that referral? Is there a way that it can make people mad, or there's a way that you've seen that's been very successful in that email chain of asking for one? Jon: The first thing I would do is offer them something of value to share. So, instead of the overt, "Just click here to publish to your Facebook a, "I just bought this product, you should too," or something that is super cheesy and very pushy. That's the mistake I see, typically. And most people aren't going to do that. But if you make it something that is really useful, like, "Hey, I just bought this tent from this company, and here's a video on how to set up a tent, or a trick on how to set up a tent, perhaps, that would make your life easier if you camp too." So you say, "Okay, well, share that out," perhaps with this referral code, something of that sort. And you can offer people a discount. Jon: Now, a lot of times... I do this a lot. If I really like something and I'm recommending it to somebody, I'll say, "You know what, I know I get a discount on that. Why don't I just make the introduction and then I know you'll get a discount." So it's, "Offer 10% off to your friends," or whatever that might be. Or, "Use this code and your friends get free shipping," or, "They get a free gift if you refer them." It doesn't, again, have to be a percentage off. But I think there's a lot of options there and a lot of offers that could be mixed in. It just requires a little bit of thought and creativity instead of doing the lazy thing that every eCom site's doing, and either not asking or just saying, "Hey, use this code and give it to your friends for a percentage off." Ryan: Got it. So, just kind of make it a little more fun or exciting, or not just the basic "give me a code." Jon: Right, exactly. Ryan: Well, that's awesome. Okay. So, we've got a lot of potential for increasing conversion rates from thank you pages to emails to referrals to countless different things. Thank you, Jon, for downloading all of that education on us. I think there's just a ton in there that I'm actually going to start implementing on some of my brands. Anything else you want to leave us with? Jon: No, I think that the first thing to think about is getting that conversion. After that, there's so much more opportunity to go that most people don't pay attention to. I think it's really important that they take that extra step. I appreciate you bringing this topic to the table and us discussing it today. Hopefully it's a value for folks. Ryan: Oh yeah, I'm sure it is. Thank you, Jon.

As the coronavirus pandemic is changing the game for businesses around the world, Jon and Ryan offer some timely advice on what you can do to propel your ecommerce business forward instead of just sitting on the sidelines. TRANSCRIPT RYAN GARROW: Jon, we are all working from home, because there's a virus running around the country, scaring us but also driving us to be safe and do different things. I'm not at all making light of that, but it is changing the game for every business. If you're a business that hasn't been impacted by this in a positive or negative way, you might be on vacation somewhere not knowing what's going on. As you're talking to companies over the last week or two, what are you hearing? Have you seen anything work, anything that's been terrible? What's the general gauge of customers that you've been speaking to or prospects you've been speaking to when it comes to business right now? JON MACDONALD: Good question. I'm hearing two camps, pretty exclusively, and it seems to be clear cut one or the other for e-commerce. The one camp is, "My sales are going better than ever. People are home, they're not shopping on retail at all and we're picking up the slack." A lot of brands that also sell through retail are seeing this because they still have a demand for their goods and they're still shipping. A lot of them are even offering special deals right now to get people to purchase even more. I see a lot of e-commerce brands I'm talking with that fall into the camp of, "Things are better than ever," and that's great. I'm so glad to hear that. Then there's the other camp that are saying, either, "I'm already out of stock of items, and I don't know when I'm going to get more," because they're having challenges-- In the United States, we're probably, what? Eight weeks behind where China was with this health epidemic. You look at that and you say, "Okay, eight weeks before the factories got going again." If they're full scale in eight weeks, we don't really know and then, the ports are really backed up and people aren't able to get the goods, even into the country. If they are, they'll be in China right now. We have a lot of issues with supply chain and I'm hearing a handful of folks that are saying, "This is a problem, I need to stop all spending. I'm not going to drive traffic anymore, because, why would I drive traffic? Why would I spend to convert my site if I can't get any product in the hands anyways?" I'm not suggesting that's right or wrong. I would love to hear your opinion on that aspect, but that's what I'm hearing. It's one of those two camps. What about your side? What are you hearing on these daily conversations? RYAN: Because we touch companies that are all e-commerce as well, we've got probably the full gamut of it. We have some small local businesses that only have storefronts and they've-- Obviously, nothing is happening. I can think of escape rooms like for entertainment, those companies stay with small little companies, didn't spend a lot but we helped them do well but nobody's going to go to an escape room for the near future. They have just nothing, no chance to market. They've got to do some interesting things. We're advising them in different ways. E-commerce, there's a lot of gut reaction we hear, mainly from smaller clients that it's like, "Pull everything back in, don't do anything. We just got to ride this out and huddle and protect what we do have." Then we have other companies of all sizes, saying, "Hey, this is great. Let's step on the gas. Let's go." Again, there's supply chain issues all over the place. Some of them are pivoting, some of them had backstop because of the previous issues with China production last year with tariffs, so that has some of our clients. They have a bunch of back stock from that even because they were worried about 25% tariff, so they had loaded up before that. We have, like you said, the full gamut. I don't think we go back to where we were three weeks ago. We're going to have a new normal for almost every business in the United States, no matter what your business is. Just lots of change. JON: Yes. Talk about that new normal a little bit, then, I'm interested. What do you think won't change? What do you think will stay the same, and what do you think will change? RYAN: What's not going to change is people are going to buy stuff online. People have already been buying online, they're going to continue buying online and so that doesn't necessarily change. What you're buying right now, I mean, if somebody had an online toilet paper retailer, they are probably in great shape right now. That's probably the ones that are like, "This is great, this is the best thing that's ever happened." I think we're going to have a reaction to that and people that sell petits are probably going to be doing wonderfully well because people are going to be sick of buying toilet paper. I think there's going to be a shift in retail, obviously. I don't know if-- I knew retail was going down and you've probably known this as well, like, it's not been a secret. Somebody told me today, I haven't actually found the article, but JCPenney may have like Forever closed all stores and gone online totally. Probably it was a good decision anyway. JON: They were headed that direction before, right? RYAN: Yes, so it accelerated that. What I see with a lot of these things that happen-- I mean, this is a very rare occurrence. I did a lot of research and I was preparing for talks around what do you do in a down economy, and you look back at the depression, and you can see how you can spend through that and you can do depressions-- Companies that advertise through recessions, depressions do better. There's a bunch of studies around that, it's no secret but when you have a cliff that we fall off of, it's not necessarily economic related. You do have to look at it from different lens and the easiest, closest thing I saw was 1918, when it was the Spanish flu, the first H1N1 and it was after World War 1 and the US was already in a recession to a degree and so this exacerbated it, but it was also, we had people that couldn't find work already and then people couldn't move. It was a very similar scenario, kind of a lockdown. They also didn't have e-commerce, they had local stores. That was basically all you could do. Retail obviously came back from there, but very unique times, but I think what it does is that when things like this happen, it shines a magnifying glass on things that were going really well and things that were going really bad. If you had a store that was already not doing well, it's really not doing well now, unless you randomly got some of the products that people need right now. JON: Right. I'm hearing that same thing that the best way to think about this is that your company needs to be able to survive this initial shock. I keep hearing the biggest similarities economically are 9/11. You get through that initial big shock and then we'll get into the recession, and then we can deal with the financial impacts. If you had a business that was having challenges already, you're not going to survive that shock because all it takes is one shock to a weakened system if you will, and your business is going to suffer the ultimate consequence because of that. If you were able to get through that shock, then you can probably pick up the pieces and we should see-- I'm not an economist, I'm just telling you what I keep hearing is optimism about this coming back up quickly. That, "Yes, we're going to hit a recession for a minute, but then we'll work our way back up pretty quickly." I think the long term effects are going to be more of an issue because of all the bailouts and money we're pumping in, we got to pay that back somehow as a United States economy, but we'll get there. The reality I think is if you are already running a business that couldn't survive the initial shock, then you had other issues as well, and if you run a decent business that had some cash that could weather the storm a little bit, then you're likely going to be better off coming out of this because maybe you'll run a little leaner, maybe you'll make sure that you're spending more effectively. I think that for you and I in terms of E-competence is what we're going to see on a regular basis is more emphasis on return on ad spend, coming out of this. I think there's going to be more emphasis on conversions for sure. I'm hearing that already from our customers and our clients. We did some research reports and interviewed everybody and the data was very eye-opening, and where people are going to cut and how they're going to cut. Are you seeing the same things? RYAN: Yes. Every company is a time to step back and analyze what's going on. I think what companies have to protect themselves against is making a really quick decision, just like, "Oh my gosh, we got to pull back and stop everything and then figure it out." It's like, "Let's stay calm, even if everything goes down." Let's hypothetically say the economy drops 20%, that's a big drop, but that still means that we have 80% still going. That's not a terrible thing. It's painful, bad things are going to happen. There's going to be people out of work. If 3 million people lose their job. I, it's 3 million people that can't buy your stuff but it also means there's still 97 million people probably working. It's not the end of the world. For some businesses, it will be, but I think it's-- Step one, remain calm and understand where we're at and that it's not a death sentence for every business out there. JON: I pulled up the data from our survey we did of e-commerce store owners. We ran the survey for about a week, last week, and I feel like it's already been a month since then, just in terms of how quickly things are moving. At that point as of the end of last week, we asked the question, "Have your e-commerce sales been negatively impacted by the recent health and economic events?" 52.2% said no. Again, it's been pretty split down the middle there, right? 52% are saying that they have not been negatively impacted. I know you sent out a bunch of great data as well, from what you're seeing from January to February, February, mid February and then end of March. Any thoughts on that data? You said January 1 through February 17th, that shopping impressions were up by 17% year over year, and revenue was up almost 14% year over year. RYAN: We saw really normal data. E-commerce has been steadily growing at that rate for years. For us, it's like, all systems go, everything's normal. I think we've got somewhere around 3,200 to 3,300 e-com clients. Then for some reason, I don't know why, I pulled some big snapshots of large segments of our e-comm data. Something happened on February 18th, couldn't find a news article or a reason. The first death in the Us-- this is US data by the way, first death in the US wasn't until February 23rd so in my head, there was something building up, some reason that people are starting to shop more. Impressions jumped to 37.4%, I think, year over year from the February 18th to 28th. I eliminated the 29th because of the leap year but that significant bump for no reason. External, there's no holiday involved and this is your year data too. Then we went into March and we looked at March 1st to the 9th, year over year and it got a little less crazy but it was still up 27% year over year. We didn't have a big move of Easter this year. I mean, there was no data other than people are online to buy things or search for things at a much higher rate. I didn't bring conversion data into those yet because latent conversions are important in a few of our clients that we just couldn't calculate that yet, but people are online. Even take my family, for example, we've been buying our groceries online for store pickup and delivery for, I don't know, a couple of years. Now, we have four small kids, nobody wants to take four kids under six to the store to buy groceries and out of everything. You can't get meat at Fred Meyer, for example, here in Portland. We had to check Walmart, can't get meat there. Costco, you could probably get meat but you're going to wait in line for an hour to get in. You're going to wait in line an hour to get stuff. They don't do pick up or delivery. Found Whole Foods, so we did a lot of searches actually just to find certain things we needed. That could be a part of it. Just continuing to search at a local level for certain things. Again, if you're being appropriate with your budgets and search, then you can capture a lot of these people that are trying to find various things. If you have it, people want to buy and they're not going to stores. JON: I think you made a good point there. I think there's goods that you need to purchase locally. You're not going to get online like meat, but even then, it's interesting. I mean, there's a lot of frozen meat companies out there that will ship you-- Omaha Steaks, things of that sort. RYAN: Exactly. If I could order Omaha Steaks for every meal, I totally would. Unfortunately, I haven't made enough money for that to be the case yet, but someday Omaha, you're shipping my steaks on a daily basis. How about that? JON: Love it. It's interesting because I'm also hearing, despite all of that, one of the questions we asked was, "Do you anticipate seeing your e-commerce sales grow as people take health precautions by not shopping in retail?" Again, 52% said yes. It aligns with those who feel their sales have not been impacted. They're also hopeful that they're going to do more of the capturing that retail group that is not buying at retail. I think that's really interesting that we'll see some hit from the e-commerce world, but it probably won't be as bad as retail. RYAN: I sure hope not. We do a lot in e-commerce together, so it'd be bad for us. I look at this, I'm an optimist. I'm an eternal optimist. I always think I'm going to win. I always think things are going to be great. I fail, of course. That's the way I look at it. I get excited because I see economic downturns as opportunities. The last time we had a big downturn, 2006, 2007, 2008 I wasn't prepared. I didn't have businesses in the places that I do now, so I couldn't capitalize when things got bad, they were house deals all over the place. If you had cash in 2008, 2009 you have a fleet of rentals at this point that probably tripled in value because you had that and you were prepared. I see this, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is exciting. I am prepared. I have the ability to move in and get aggressive where it's appropriate." Businesses, you might be able to buy competitors for pennies on the dollars very soon if they weren't prepared. If you're an e-com store for example, and you don't have the overhead of a retail and some of your competitors have expensive retail spaces, they have to support and still pay rent, or they have employees that maybe aren't being utilized in an e-commerce scenario, they're going to be struggling and it creates significant opportunities. For me, I'm excited because I think there's so much to do and this is where companies that really want to win will be able to distance themselves if they take appropriate actions. JON: I think that's a great point of taking the optimistic view of this of, "Well, how can you help someone out by perhaps bailing them out a little bit, buying their company and helping them turn that around and everybody win from that?" I think we're going to see a lot of that coming down the line just from an economic standpoint. You mentioned there's going to be deals to be had and if you're an e-commerce company in a position to be able to invest and take advantage of those, you're going to be doing I think very well coming out of this. JON: Well, we asked a question as well around what is the response these brands are going to take. "I predict my brand will respond to these health and economic concerns by," and reducing marketing spend was 61% of the response and I thought that was interesting because that's not taking advantage of this opportunity. I mean ad-words and stuff, are going to get a lot cheaper because people aren't bidding. RYAN: I feel bad for companies that their default reaction to the tough times is to pull back marketing, especially when we're in e-commerce. For example, my brand. I separate my accounts so I have brand terms and non-brand terms. You've heard me say this constantly. I probably preach it every event you're at with me. Non-brand, that's a free agent. If somebody is searching for your product but not you, they have intent to buy based on the search, they're choosing you or a competitor. There is no scenario for a business that I am involved with in an ownership and I have some say where we are not spending down to break even to buy that customer, no scenario. I want that customer and I want them more than my competitors do. It's going to become mine so I am turning up marketing. In fact, I hired people last week in the middle of this to increase production like we are going in and we're going in aggressively. Hey, it might not well be able to win as much as I want or could, but there's no scenario. I'm actually taking it. I'm going all in and if I fall a little bit short, oh well, at least I've made some gains and I got some clients that maybe I wouldn't have been able to get even as recently as two weeks ago because my competitors hadn't pulled back their marketing yet. JON: I think that's interesting because in that same response, 8.7% said they're going to spend more on marketing. I think that's 8.7% that's going to win. I look at that and I'm like, "If you're in that minority of 9% let's just say, you have a big opportunity where you're just going to be able to take over your competition and if you keep marketing through this, there's a very high likelihood that you'll have more revenue. You're going to have more resources when you come out of this, frankly, be able to overtake your competition and just in overall spend, because they're going to be limping along through this. They're hurting themselves or their sales not being able to be propelled by this marketing. When they come out of this, it's just not going to be as pretty for them as it would be for somebody who tries to maintain their marketing as much as they can." That's been a big message to my team here too. It's like, "Let's continue to keep marketing." Now, it needs to be done tactfully. Let's not get mixed up in the COVID-19, "Here's how we're continuing to serve our customers," emails. That's not helpful. RYAN: Oh my God. That's like popups to me for you. It's like, really? Thank you 500 people that I've ever bought something from in the last 10 years emailing me. Kudos. JON: That's exactly the problem. Most people aren't going to be upset about those emails, but they're certainly not going to read them. It's not a good opportunity. RYAN: My password keeper sent me an e-mail, the one on my iPhone that stores all my passwords that I pay for once a year, sent me an e-mail. I was like, "Do I care if your developers are working from home or working from the office?" JON: As long as I can get to my passwords. RYAN: I don't care. Why would you waste the, I even cost you something to send it like human capital, fractions of pennies for emails. Like, Oh my gosh. JON: There's that for sure. The way to get through this in terms of the marketing is to acknowledge it's a problem and just say, "Hey, you know what? We know that this is going on. Don't ignore it, and certainly don't take advantage of it and try to say 'Oh, we're running a shop from home sale because everybody's stuck at home right now."' That's not going to go over very well. RYAN: No. I was talking to one of our clients that sells, it's a beauty skincare cream. They focus on organic and teens or preteens. It's something like that. They're like, "Okay, what do we do with COVID-19?" I'm like, "What do you mean? You sell skin-- You're not going to talk about that. That's terrible." They're like, "Well, people can't go out for Easter." I was like, "Well, yes, they can't." "What about getting Easter baskets? You're going to buy your daughter some makeup for," I was like, "That's great. Maybe you can do an Easter sale and push your heart on social and get some--" Influencers may be involved, but you don't want to necessarily say, "Hey, you can't go out on Easter. You still want to dress up." I mean, that's just rubbing into somebody's face because there's going to be a lot of disappointment. Every Easter we do a big event at my barn with my whole family, because I have a large one and we do a beer tasting. We work our way through the Easter letters. The beer had to start with E one year, then A, we're around S which was a great one because there's a lot of great beers that start with S or they have to have like Jesus in them. There's some bad beers with Jesus. I'm just telling you that right now. [crosstalk] JON: I can't imagine it's good beer. RYAN: But we're doing it virtually, we're doing a virtual tasting. JON: Talk about taking advantage of a situation, naming your beer off of religious figures. RYAN: Oh man, there's-- I won't mention a brewery but there's a pecan Jesus beer that it is not very good. JON: Pecan beer sounds horrible to me. RYAN: Everything about it was like, "That is not a good sounding beer." JON: I'm much more of a wine person, unfortunately. RYAN: Well, we could do wine tasting too, but it's changing. Don't push it on people.There's two things I'm telling a lot of companies [unintelligible 00:21:30] is number one, assume everybody knows I'm going to tell them to keep marketing. Outside of that, you have to be creative but move. If you don't do anything, you're never going to start moving. Understand that you're going to make some mistakes and you're going to go out there. Maybe you accidentally mentioned the COVID or coronavirus when you maybe shouldn't have, but at least you're out there testing something and you realize, "Oh, that wasn't great." Get out there and do something to expand your brand. You have to think outside the box. This is unprecedented. None of us have been through a giant downturn related to a virus. If you find somebody that's been through this, I'd love to know what country they were in when this exactly happened. They had e-commerce versus Amazon not being able to send anything but toilet paper. Getting out of, it's going to take some testing. I say also talk to an expert, whether that's Jon, whether that's me, somebody else. Talk to somebody that understands something about what you're trying to accomplish and run some ideas by him and then say, "Hey, I'm thinking of doing this. Is there a reason that you would say bad idea or yes, it's worth a try. Let's measure it." Pull back quickly if it's not working. JON: I mean one of the benefits of a slowdown right now for e-com brands is that there are experts like you and I who were a little bit slower perhaps than what you would typically see and we're giving our time back and saying, "Hey, I'm happy to chat with you. I'm happy to help as much as I can, answer questions, let's do these things." We're stuck at home. We have an extra hour a day because we're not commuting. We have extra time on our hands as a whole, as a community that I think is really interesting. It's really, really fun to see how you can use that goodwill in a way that-- I'm answering questions. I sent an e-mail out last week instead of an article which we've sent out for seven years in a row over seven years now. We send one every Tuesday and last week I was just like, "Team, it doesn't seem right to send an e-mail out this week with an article that's quite frankly a topic we had booked three months out. On our content calendar. It's not really relevant to what's going on. I don't feel we should send that out this week." They were like, "Well, we don't want to just send no e-mail. Let's send, 'hope everybody's doing well."' I was like, "No, no, no, that's not going to go well. Nobody wants to hear that." Instead what we decided was let's send an e-mail that's basically being helpful. We really wanted to just be as helpful as we could for these e-com brands and be in it with them. The whole goal was,"Okay, we have all this content, seven, eight, nine years of content that we've have up on our site that we've written. It's super helpful." I just said, "Hey, if you're having a challenge, you want some expert advice on it, reply to this e-mail and we'll look at our back catalog of content and send you the article that's specific to your need along with some context and a little bit of help on that." The amount of responses I got is overwhelming. We sent it on Tuesday, we're recording this on a Thursday afternoon. I still have dozens of emails in my inbox that I need to get through. The benefit of that is not just that we get to help the community, but also that now I'm basically writing content because I'm answering these people and saying, "Here's the old content, but here's all the stuff I would update on this right now and here's how I would be thinking about it." Then I sent that e-mail to our marketing team and they're taking that and they're updating the content on the site, or they're writing new content based off of what I'm suggesting. We're able to produce a lot of great content with this extra time that we have on our hands because everybody's working from home, not commuting. We do have some clients who are like, "Hey, talk to me in two weeks when things calm down." They're not dropping but they're saying, "Hey, I just need some time right now," which is understandable. I think that it's really interesting to see how we can all band together and help each other out and really use this to generate some great content that will be everlasting out there. I think the knowledge base, the communal knowledge base is just going to grow so much. RYAN: I think it's going out with the idea people want to give help, they want to be helpful, but they also are going to be looking for help. I think it opens up a lot of doors to maybe a partnership that you wouldn't have even been able to approach or do anything with before. One of my companies is a brand that sells to retail as well as online and my retailers are closed. They're struggling. They still have expensive rent to pay in certain areas, and so I'm like, "Okay, well, you don't sell online. I do. I know how to do it. Let's get some of your stuff online, how can I help you move product?" They're going to sell more of my product probably with some of these things as well but it's like, "Hey, you're being forced as a local business to start selling online now, let me help you compete with some of those big retailers," because a lot of times it surprises me. We have some rather large advertisers and some of them came in and said, "Yes, right now we're going to cut budgets 50%," and there's no data around that. We didn't have anything to say around it. They just dictated that. We're going to go back and talk to them through some of the logic, but that was an e-mail we got yesterday and I was like, "That makes no sense." If you have one of the largest advertisers in a category that's going to pull back 50% of their digital spend, small guys have a huge opportunity to fill that void because people are still buying these things. The volume is still there. JON: That's so true. That goes back to just that small 9% in that survey that said they're going to invest more or continue the same. I think those are the folks who are going to come out winning. If nothing else, their brand is going to get in front of new people that they wouldn't have been able to afford to get in front of before. There is some bright spot here for sure. RYAN: I'm excited but it's also, I guess I get nervous, but it's almost like an excited nervous. We don't know what's going to happen. I'm pretty confident with our team's skill set and what we're going to be able to do and your team skill set, we're going to come out of this fine. Hopefully, most of our clients do and we're able to help that but if some of their competitors of our clients don't make it. JON: Maybe they should have talked to us first. [laughter] JON: I think there's a bit of a Machiavellian message here. I don't want to say take advantage of the situation but definitely think twice about how you can utilize this in a way that is going to help your company instead of hurt it. If you start thinking with that mindset, I'm not suggesting even a growth mindset, I'm just saying every company is going to have down revenue this year. If you are just thinking about how do I maintain, then when things pick back up, you're going to really pick back up much quicker. If you say, "Hey, you know what? I know we're going to have a 20% drop, I'm just going to cut everything." Like you mentioned with that one customer, that's just the wrong mindset. I understand. Of course, that sounds, coming from you and I, of course, we should be saying keep spending on marketing because that's our business. I cannot stress the data that's behind this and the reality of this. I know I've seen you do presentations on just how car companies back in the depression came out of this and how Ford really blew up coming out of that because of the actions they took versus what is it, GM at the time? RYAN: Chrysler. JON: Chrysler. RYAN: That was crazy. JON: I think the same situation can apply here. People who keep moving forward, keep marketing are going to grow like Ford versus Chrysler did back then. Different time maybe different industries, but I think the same tenants apply. RYAN: Yes, I probably would agree. If you Google recession studies, and I think I've referenced one from the '70s and then one from the early '80s they were recessions. They did some studies around companies that advertised in, during and after a recession and compared their growth to companies that cut marketing and every time companies that advertise and marketed through the recession, despite what maybe they felt like doing grew and their marketing wasn't even as traceable as our last-click attribution type tracking that we have online. We have unprecedented tracking online that if you have profitable or even break-even marketing, I don't care what the economy is doing, there's no reason not to spend that money. I mean it's just, it's layups. JON: Well, Ryan, this has been a lot of fun to connect about this today. Hopefully, there's been some value here for listeners, some things they should be thinking about. If nothing else, hopefully, they decide that they can be the Ford of the world versus the Chrysler coming out of this in a way that is really going to help propel their business forward versus sitting on the sidelines. RYAN: Yes. Hopefully. If anybody wants to reach out to either one of us, please do. This is fun for us to talk through and help companies and advise them. It's what we live for. JON: Yes. RYAN: And we've got extra time with no commute. JON: There you go. I'm happy to help. I've been putting this on LinkedIn. Anytime I see any of our partners or any offers out there, I repost them on LinkedIn. It's like, ''Hey, guys, look, e-commerce community is banding together.'' I don't know if you saw, Privy just came out with today ShopSmallEcomm.com. RYAN: I did see that, yes. JON: Ecomm with two m's at the end. It's just amazing. They're really trying to just help all of these e-com businesses to get listed in this directory and they're doing this effort for free. Yes, it's a marketing thing for Privy, nobody's hiding that. The reality is that it's helpful and it can't hurt to list your site on there. Right, so why not? RYAN: No, not at all. I already sent it out to my wife's businesses. I've sent it to all our directors and VPs like, ''Hey, there is no reason not to support a partner, number one, because we want to do that.'' JON: I'm hearing things like Brex does credit cards for e-com. They usually offer net 60 terms with no fees and they're extending those terms out to 90-120 days with no fees, no interest. Things like that are like, ''Hey, can you see three months in the future right now. If you are sure your business is going to be around in three months, why not do this and give yourself that runway, and perhaps be able to pay some employees in this time. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to and keep advertising and take advantage of this opportunity." There are ways out there. I know there's Clearbanc that does funding, as well B-A-N-C, Clearbanc with a C. There's a ton of these type of things out there that are offering a lot right now. They understand that your balance sheet looks low, there understand what we've all been going through and they're willing to work with that. If you can show that going into this, you were doing okay, they're confident you're going to do okay when you come out of it, and they want to help you see that through. There's a lot of stuff out there right now, Ryan and everybody's got a little extra time to contribute. Everybody's kind of banding together, it's been amazing to see the e-com community. I just recommend that as many as e-com brands can take advantage of these opportunities that are in front of them and the help that has been extended, will really see it through. As you mentioned, we're both happy to help on paid search and how to keep marking on that front. Also on conversion to make sure that once you get those people there, that those dollars go as far as possible so definitely reach out. Any last thoughts on your side, Ryan? RYAN: I think the last webinar was probably just when in doubt, go. Just do it. See what happens. Again, that's kind of just get in motion. I think you can't fail if you're moving somewhere. You'll figure it out. JON: I'd rather go down swinging, right? RYAN: Heck, yes. JON: That's it. All right, Ryan. Thank you. This has been fun chat today, considering the sad circumstances and topic, but I think we're going to pull through this. RYAN: I agree. JON: I'm very excited to be able to help everybody. Thanks, Ryan. RYAN: Thank you.

Are your marketing goals lining up with the goals you've set to grow your business overall? Many business owners or executive teams set goals for their online marketing to drive profit to the company. Unfortunately, the current digital marketing landscape makes it difficult to reach digital marketing goals that have a focus on profit: * Generally speaking, digital marketing has increased in competition and the real estate available for paid ads has shrunk (mainly on Google which controls a vast majority of search volume). * This has forced companies to further emphasize customer lifetime value activities (such as email and loyalty programs) to drive business profit. * Instead of driving profit from the first order on paid search, companies now may only break-even on that initial order (some companies even lose money on the first order-on purpose). The solution is to focus less on marketing ROI and focus more on the overall business objectives, like increasing market share: * Revisit the goal every two months to see how email and loyalty channels are impacted by the increase of new customers. * In theory, both of those channels will be driving much higher volumes of sales at extremely profitable levels. Even if profit doesn’t match up exactly, the sales volume will be making a noticeable dent in competitors. * Customers that buy from your website through non-brand search and shopping are customers that were likely going to purchase from a competitor if you didn’t get them. * They didn’t have any brand or site loyalty when making the search. * Over time, investing in non-brand search/shopping more aggressively will also have what we call, The Halo Effect. * Don’t let any changed goal continue for more than two months into the new year without analyzing the data to make sure that it is driving the intended outcome. * Having goals that don’t drive the business in the right direction aren’t necessarily bad, but can have unintended consequences when left unreviewed. LINKS "I Have Bad Goals, You Have Bad Goals, We ALL Have Bad Goals" by Ryan Garrow (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/i-have-bad-goals-you-we-all-part-1-ryan-garrow/) TRANSCRIPT JON MACDONALD: Ryan, I know you've spent a lot of time communicating with business owners and marketing teams about their goals with online marketing. To put these goals in perspective, we have to discuss overall business goals, and that's to me where things get really interesting, because their current marketing goals are not driving the online business towards an overall business goal. The business or individual usually has set a bad goal and the best time to review those I would think is at the beginning of a new budget year, which is typically the start of a calendar year. Ryan, today let's talk about setting more appropriate goals to online marketing and align that with business objectives. How does that sound? RYAN GARROW: Sounds awesome. It's one of my favorite topics actually. I get into this all year actually. I'll be talking to business owners as they're thinking about becoming a client or working with us. Or even if I'm just out having a beer after a conference, I always love talking about goals. It's been a big part of my life, and how I operate so I'm constantly setting goals, revisiting them, and business strategy and goal setting go so hand in hand that it just becomes a topic I naturally get to probably in almost every conversation with business owners or marketing teams. So often, I find that there are well intentioned people throughout an organization that set what seems to be an appropriate goal for their team, and then they get down the road 6 months to 12 months, and maybe they hit their goal, but it drove the business in a completely different direction then it actually been anticipated. Without all the stops in place, you really revisit that goal and decide, "Is this actually working and are we actually accomplishing what we're trying to accomplish?" It can be very fascinating conversation in that process. I'm excited about this topic for sure. JON: I recognize and maybe our listeners don't know, but you run several online businesses yourself, right? RYAN: Yes, my wife and I have probably more than our fair share [laughs] that we run. JON: I would think one is a fair share so the fact that you have more than that is awesome. That speaks to the fact that you put a lot of what you preach into practice, right? RYAN: Yes, there's actually not a scenario in which I will advise a business owner or marketing team to do something that I'm probably not already doing or I haven't learned from and therefore advise them correctly based on my own misgivings or wasted money. JON: I imagine in your day, you've probably set a bad goal or two. RYAN: The list is ongoing and my wife likes to remind me of those [laughs]. One funny one recently, I was so mad at myself for this one. We were launching a brand and we decided to launch it on Amazon. Partially for the education, but also because I had been built up as a digital marketer to fear Amazon, and that just made me mad that I was scared of Amazon. That's why I go, "Forget it. We're going to launch a brand on Amazon and see what happens. We have to understand the landscape." Our team was deciding to start up an Amazon ads department. I said, "All right, we'll launch on Amazon, you can have my money. I'll set a wonderfully appropriate goal to make sure we hit our objectives." Initially is like, "All right, I'm going to share the upside with this team and we're going to have a profit share." They know my margins because they need to know that to run the digital marketing through Amazon and help create the pages and all that. We had this wonderful goal that every dollar of profit we got from ads, they were going to get, I think it's something around 20% of that dollar, whatever that looked like. I can't remember exactly the goal. My goal as a business owner in launching this business was to dominate the competition. I was not in the game for profit. I want to spend down to break even to get customers, I want to understand the Amazon ecosystem, but my goal really in this is it's an organic fertilizer. I want to take down Monsanto. A pretty lofty goal considering how many billions of dollars they have. JON: Yes, no kidding. RYAN: Profit was secondary to me, it was like, let's get the product in the hands of people. I want to know their feedback as well as saying, "Hey, the more people that get it, the better my opportunities for repeat business, et cetera, et cetera." We get three months down the road, and I'm just frustrated with growth, like, hey, we went up aggressively. When we started the marketing it was exciting. My partners and I were looking at numbers daily. It was actually when the Apple Watch which we all had had the Amazon ping every time you got a sale, which was great. We'd have a glass of wine at the end of the day and our watch would go off and we're like, "Yes, we just got a sale. This is awesome." We were excited, but it flat-line so quick, and three months in I was talking to the team and I was like, there is way more search volume here on Amazon than what we're capturing. I could see our search rank and where we are ranking the competitors and their sales volume based on reviews and all these other metrics we had to look at. We were not moving the needle forward according to my overall business goal of becoming one of the largest houseplant fertilizers in the marketplace. The teams like, "Oh, the numbers are great. Look at we spent $5,000, regenerated 10 $12,000 of profit. You cut us a cheque on the side for $1,000. Isn't this great?" That is not my goal. Profits, not bad. The partners weren't upset about the profit, but the flat-line growth had to do with the fact that our marketing team that was pushing the levers, and pulling levers on the Amazon ads weren't actually able to accomplish my overall goal of market share and getting sales and new users because they were being conservative to protect that margin, which was their goal. I had to go back to the team and like, "Okay, I like the fact that we're able to pay you because you generate a profit. You nailed the goal. Awesome job. High fives all around, but as a business owner, I have to now change the goal because I don't really care about profit. I care about sales." We adjusted the goal to get on to percent of overall revenue, as long as we're not losing money. I said, "If there's a dollar in profit, I'm still paying you and I'll technically lose money as a brand, but that's the goal I want is aggressive sales growth, regardless of dollar profit from marketing, because that initial orders when I'm getting on Amazon, and we had some brand campaigns set up so we can avoid brand non brand stuff. It turns out, we started growing again, once we adjusted that goal and better aligned with my overall business vision, but that was frustrating for me, but it's also an example of how easy it is to get going on the wrong goal just because good intentions are not. I set a goal that just wasn't appropriate. JON: I think that aligns with the current digital marketing landscape, which has had a major shift over the last few years. Would you agree with that? RYAN: For sure. It's constantly changing. I think one of the reasons I still have a job in the digital marketing spaces is because it's constantly changing and the landscape is constantly in flux. Google, where the largest percentage of spend many times is for a company. In the last couple of years, we've gone from 11 text ads down to 7, and there's more companies competing. You can see you compressed the amount of available ad space, and then increased number of advertisers, logic dictates what's going to happen when that does, there's just an increase in cost per click and a real shift. Maybe five, six years ago, a lot of our e commerce clients would have said, "Set a goal around profit, and I need to get profit from ads because it's available." Now profit from that first ad isn't necessarily there for every company. In fact, many industries, it's you're losing money, no matter what happens on Google ads, or Microsoft ads, but you're moving the focus from that initial sale and what are you getting from that sale to, What's the lifetime value am I getting from that? And so it's extending out that return. We started doing this actually funny enough, probably about four or five years ago, with a company called Harry and David, where they did the math and actually understood how much money they should be losing on that first order to maximize their long term lifetime customer value, and how many companies they could get and how much market share could they capture. It was a real fascinating study, but we're finding that to be more than norm now than shooting for a 10X return on ads spend when your margin is 50%. JON: Yes, so they're basically looking to break even on that initial order. RYAN: A lot of companies should whether or not they are or not. My advice to a lot of companies is that first what we would considering a non brand acquisition, so somebody searching for your product or service and not your brand. That ordered in a perfect world right now should probably not have profit, it should be right about break-even and then having some lifetime value, being able to email them and bring them back into the brand through the same product again, another service, another product, having that future business coming in with your profit actually comes from. JON: Yes, because the cost of that second sale is so much cheaper. RYAN: Yes, and the more customers you can acquire on a non brand search, the less customers your competitors have, because that person is searching for product A unattached to a brand at this point. They're going to buy from somebody, it might as well be you because now you have that customer data, and that ends up becoming one of the most important things to a brand, regardless of whether you're a retailer or a brand. It's that customer data and knowing something about them that maybe your competitor doesn't know. JON: Is it safe to say that the number of levers that have impacted digital marketing return has just magnified tremendously over the past few years and maybe that's causing confusion with the goals? RYAN: I think so. I think you also have a lot of marketing teams and business owners that have goals that they have them and they don't necessarily know why. They've had them for years and it comes across to companies big and small that either their goal is, "We just take last year's numbers and add 10, 15% whatever we think the market's going to do and that's our goal." Or, "Hey, we have this profit goal from paid search and we look at it as a profit center and we always have, therefore why would we change that?" What I'm seeing from a broad stroke high level is most of those companies looking at profit goals from their marketing are shrinking as much for what their spend could be or what they actual new customers coming through that channel could be or it's causing them to focus more on just brand search in their paid channels, which has meaning they're capturing the same customers over and over and over again and are not actually growing their database. JON: Step one is to understand and acknowledge that we've had bad goals, right? Step two is to fix those goals and make sure that we've got marketing in alignment. I think we can all agree, at least in some part, we've all had bad goals. You had a great example of a bad goal earlier on and now that we've all agreed on that, let's talk about how we can fix those. Can you walk us through maybe an example conversation you've had with clients who have had bad goals and how you start to correct those? RYAN: One actually comes to mind. It's in the auto parts space. Generally speaking the margins are not extremely high. This particular brand though manufacturers and goes direct to consumer and so their margins are higher than most. In fact their margins I think are just below 50% but they're fairly large organization online. I think they are doing north of 50 million or so per year through their website. We took it over from another agency and magnified their sales phenomenally. I think they spent 1% last year over year, one of the months we looked at, before I was talking goals with them, spent 1% less and had 50% more revenue and their overall profit because they track profit outside of that for their marketing team, was that 57% on marketing even including agency fees because I think that was about a wash agency-to-agency. High level numbers looks phenomenal. They are really printing a lot of money on their paid search and they were beside themselves excited. The marketing team was in a great spot. They were super happy and one of our better references in the space. As we got into the numbers and started talking about overall business goals and what they could or should be doing, it became apparent that their marketing team had an incentive to create profit from paid search ads, which is one of the reasons they were so excited to be working with us at Logical Position because profit from paid search ads was up 57% and obviously their incentive was looking fairly solid. Diving into the numbers. They are a $50 million auto parts company that's part of a huge market. 50 million is one of the probably top five players in their specific segment, but it could be massive. They could probably be doing 100, 150 million a year online rather quickly, but they're being held back by some of their goals internally. Analyzing analytics and Google ads together uncovered some things where they only had about 20% of the impression share in shopping on some of their non-brand queries. Not that impression shares and end all be all because it can be manipulated within shopping to show almost whatever you want. This was fairly clean data that we knew that the market was fairly big for what they were doing and so despite their numbers being great, I had to talk to the CFO and talk to them about overall business goals and their goal is really become a big player and they do want to hit that 100, 150 million revenue number online and I had to talk to them about, "Okay, well, your marketing team is getting a 14X, spend a dollar, get $14 in revenue on non-brand terms," which is phenomenal in the auto space, especially in a place as competitive as theirs. There was a lot of room to run even with profit in the space and I put some numbers in front of them. I said, "Right now you're using a 15X as a barometer of success in non-brand search. What if you were able to say lower that goal to a 4X. You spend a dollar to get $4 in revenue, still technically profitable. What would that do to your spend to your overall sales to your new customers? Let's just play this out and see what happens?" It basically said, "If you tripled your budget on non-brand terms and we're talking about a six- figure budget so it's not inconsequential on a monthly basis, you are still able to get the same amount of end profit to the organization as you had before, but you were able to acquire a vast amount of new users. If you're manufacturing your fulfillment, all these things can keep pace with that. You should be pushing for a much lower return on ad spend on your non brand goals to take that market share," because they were covering such a small-- It was almost like the tip of the iceberg and they were being successful. There's no scenario in which they weren't happy, but the magnitude that they could move below that waterline and capture a massive amount of market share from competitors was for sure there and that's not the case with every company we look at or talk to. Some of them have really maximized their acquisition ability on non-brand terms, but most companies out there listening to this podcast, there for sure is the ability to push more aggressively. John: Let's talk about the different levers then that are involved in that equation. I heard you say that they got a few of those wrong and had to go back and correct them or that it's limiting them. Can you tell us about a handful of these levers that everyone should be considering when they're setting goals? RYAN: First you have to separate out brand and non-brand. People searching for your brand and your brand plus product or brand plus service, those are your earned customers. You've already done the work either in digital marketing or branding offline or social media. Those people are actually searching for you. That group of people searching, you're not going to be able to necessarily set a goal that you can stick to around that because it's going to depend on what are your competitors doing? What does the landscape look like on Google based on your brand? If you're Kleenex, your brand searches a little nebulous space on are they looking for you or are they looking for just your product because you've been branded so well for that particular product separating that out. You have to have very clean data in your account to say, that's one piece of the account that's just going to-- we want to maximize our coverage and that's really your goal there. Acquisition goals in the page search realm or digital marketing realm are around new customers to your brand. We call them new to file customers. They're new to file a new in your CRM, new in your email database. That's really where you have a lever to push and pull for your acquisition of new customers. That's where you take into account what are your margins? What’s your lifetime value? Those are numbers the brand has to be able to at least have a good understanding of margins fairly easy to capture that but usually we'll start with just a broad stroke. What's your average margin? If it's going to range between 40 and 50 depending on the product line they're buying, but to meet in the middle right now at least to start with goal setting at 45, great let's figure out your break-even is and then what's your lifetime value? How often do they come back and rebuy or how often should they? And most companies don't know this piece. This is where they're guessing and revisiting goals comes into play because you might not have a successful email campaign currently and you're going to start it right away and you're going to make an estimate that our product has a life span of six months, so we expect to be able to get in front of these people again in six months. Great, let's figure that then. How many customers should we be acquiring to get this test going? Some companies and actually I would say most companies don't start with the goal of losing money to acquire customers. Just break-even and figure out how hard can we push? This makes people really nervous by the way [chuckles]. JON: I can only imagine, especially that CFO, you always have to talk to. RYAN: Oh yes, the CFO and in my world the CFO is my wife [laughs]. I like if I could spend a 100 grand tomorrow on digital marketing and get 100,000 profit, that'd be great. That makes some CFO, like my wife, very nervous to see, oh, the potential to spend $100,000 tomorrow is there. What if we only brought in $80,000 of revenue or profit? That would be concerning to have the family at a deficit of 20 grand in one day. The wonderful thing about digital marketing, specifically, we'll focus on Google right now, for the purposes of this conversation, money comes back into the brand almost as quick as you're putting it out and depending on how Google is billing you, whether it's net 30 or whether it's every $500 and how quickly your merchant processor is bringing your payments into your bank account. Generally speaking, it's a very quick wash on that. Money goes out, money comes back in and because you can see in Google ads and fairly close to real time what sales are coming in, there's very little risk to the cash flow of the business. That's where most CFOs start coming at me within the cash flow like "Oh, we've got a byproduct. We've got to do all these other things." Yes, you have to do that but if money's coming back in as quick, in theory, it's not causing any issues. There can be issues with having the product in stock. If you are a manufacturer, do you have the bandwidth to create that volume? Do you have the ability to fulfill that? There's a lot of other questions that come into that based on what we think the volume could be. As you're going into this, the threshold may not be how much can you spend, but it could be how much can we produce, sell, et cetera, et cetera. Data considerations within the space. JON: Ryan, one thing I've heard you talk a lot about between conversations with the clients that we jointly work with is something called the halo effect, right? Over time if these brands are investing in that non-branded search or shopping more aggressively, they'll have that halo effect. Can you talk to that a little bit? RYAN: Yes. You're going to set a goal and for most of you listening, start with a goal around breaking-even on non-brand. That needs to be on search and shopping but shopping is the fun one on Google. That's where if you control your search terms well enough and this one isn't necessarily easy to control because shopping is not set up with keywords. It does take some manipulation of the campaigns and structure and hierarchy and negative keywords, all of that. Let's assume you have that together pushing aggressively in non-brand shopping. I'm staring at my computer screens now. Let's just say you're selling computer screens down to break-even by marketing aggressively and shopping and pushing for extra units there. Most people that go to Google Shopping, actually two things. They buy something different. What you're pushing and shopping as far as the click, over 50% of the time they're going to buy something entirely different. That's where it does become important to monitor what they're buying because if your margins are different, it can be problematic, but they also convert often through other channels. I personally, when I shop on Google Shopping, when I click it, I buy it. I don't do a tremendous amount of research or I've done it beforehand by the time I'm looking on Google Shopping, I click, I buy, there's not a huge attribution funnel for my personal purchases. It's unique for me when I look in the data and actually see that Google Shopping actually opens more sales than it actually closes. If you're clicking on computer screens on Google Shopping, on average, you're going to come back and buy through a different channel. If you're looking at Google analytics, you can see a city conversions. You're going to see that the halo effect of investing in Google Shopping on non-brand terms, your organic traffic generally will increase. Your email, will generally increase, your direct traffic, your referrals, your social media. All of these channels will be impacted by Google Shopping. It's fascinating to see the impact that Google Shopping can have across channel and it generally doesn't get the credit that it's due. JON: Do you mean the organic and direct traffic and these other brand channels are all going to have noticeable revenue increases as well? RYAN: They should. Again, it's not in a vacuum where it's perfect for every brand across the world, but generally speaking do it for three months and look at the numbers and you should see an increase. Now if you're doing SEO as well, you would expect organic to continue to increase as well, but using the Google analytics assisted conversions, you should be able to see where Google Shopping is having an impact and you can actually get down into conversion paths and all that fun data to tell you what is being impacted the most by your extra investment in Google Shopping. In fact, just had a conversation with the CFO, one of our clients a few days ago and they've been investing in non-brand shopping at a lower return on ad spend than they normally would because they've been seeing this halo effect. They've measured it and said, "Hey, we actually aren't there." It's a very competitive space where there's not a lot of profit, if any to be had in the digital marketing space because of the competition but for them they realized, "Hey, we've got this extra data showing that organic traffic is having an uptick and so is email and direct traffic based on what analytics is telling us about our investment in shopping. Therefore we can go down a little bit below break-even because of that halo effect and allows them to get a little more aggressive because they do have a pretty strong lifetime value where people are coming back into the brand after their first acquisition. JON: I heard you say, Ryan, a little bit about how often you should be looking at this data. How often do you feel people should be reviewing that data and then perhaps even revisiting their goals? RYAN: I'm probably a little more odd in that I'm always looking at data constantly in there and you want to be aware of it. You can also get caught in making knee jerk reactions too quickly. I caution most marketing teams or business owners to go in there daily and look at the data and want to make changes. You have to let the experts in marketing do their thing. I like to revisit goals quarterly. For my businesses, I want to say, "All right, I was shooting for this goal quarterly. Let's look at what happened and do I need to pivot the goal, adjust the goal based on what my business is trying to accomplish?" Like I did with organic fertilizer. I did revisit the goal quarterly and thankfully a day because I was able to adjust and make it a better goal to help me drive the business where I want it to go. In marketing, we always have the best intentions and the best hypothesis is going in and saying, "If we do this, we believe this is going to happen." There's always something that's going to go wrong. Always. You may not completely miss the goal. We may go in with one hypothesis saying, "Oh, there's this much search volume on this term, let's go get it and then there's more or less than, so we have to pivot a goal", and that's really where some experts can be valuable on your marketing team and seeing that because knowing that it's going to be different than what you expect, being able to pivot and adjust on the fly is very important for the minutia of working on account in the paid search realm. The marketing teams in the account constantly look at the data and make adjustments to help the account get to the goal and then higher level, I would be looking at your goals quarterly to see those goals are appropriate and they're heading in the direction that you really wanted them to go. JON: Who do you recommend is involved in that conversation then? Because I've heard you mentioned the CFO a few times and I've heard you mention the marketing teams and of course the marketing experts that they might be working with to help them drive traffic. Who all do you think should be involved in those goal setting conversations on a quarterly basis? RYAN: To a degree I say less is more. I don't like meetings in general. More people generally cause meetings to go longer. I like to keep it small. Depending on the size of your organization, you may not have a large marketing team, you may not have a CFO. Its business owner and marketing team. If there is a CFO in the organization, I highly recommend they're involved in the goal because they're going to have a general overview of what's going on in the organization and maybe the sales volume is not sustainable based on inventory levels or manufacturing capabilities or the ability to ship and distribute. The CFO should have some insight on that. I for sure think a CFO should be involved also from just a cash perspective. You need somebody that understands the digital marketing deep enough to be able to talk strategically, but also not the person actually pushing all the buttons necessarily and then the person leading marketing overall should probably be involved. JON: Just like all goals, there's value in discussing those goals with experts though, right? Would you suggest that they have a third party reviewed these goals as well? RYAN: I would probably bring a third party in, maybe not necessarily quarterly, but at least annually to look at your goals. Maybe biannually, somebody that you trust just to have an unobstructed view of what you could or should be doing. Audit of Google's a place where you're spending a lot of your money, maybe have an audit at least once a year. If you're working with Logical Position, I don't dissuade somebody from having an audit done by somebody just to see-- to help keep them accountable. Accountability is not a bad thing. You want to make sure that you as a business owner or head of marketing are really getting what you're paying for or that your goals are appropriate and driving the business in the direction that you need it to be going. JON: You're not missing those potential pitfalls of that goal, right? RYAN: Yes, there are pitfalls of all kinds of goals that if you're expecting lifetime value, but your email program is not generating it, maybe you can't be shooting for break-even on the first order because you need some of that profit to cover a retail store that maybe isn't as profitable as it should be. There's a lot of variables to every business on the planet that one size doesn't fit all as far as a digital marketing goal, but you can use guidelines, regard rails in place to help formulate the most appropriate goal. JON: Ryan, this has been an amazing topic. I know I can't wait to start refining some of my own goals here at The Good. Anything else you wanted to add to this conversation? RYAN: I think just the most important thing is just make sure you're having fun. I see too many business owners and marketing teams getting into the minutia of goal setting or digital marketing and that just becomes not fun and that's really why a lot of people are in business in the first place. Yes, it's a job. It pays the bills, but if diving into the details is not fun, find a way to make it more enjoyable. Enjoy the process of setting goals, analyzing them and really find ways to win. It should be fun talking to your goals. It should be fun talking to business strategy of how is your brand going to win in 2020 and in this new decade? The potential right now for every brand is huge. You've got a new decade to look at, have fun with it, set some goals, be aggressive, conservative goals aren't nearly as fun to accomplish as aggressive, big pioneer sky goals. JON: I would say most people would think that looking at numbers can't be fun, but you know what? If those numbers are going up into the right and they're trending positive and you've set the right goals that are helping you achieve success and revenue and profit, then things get a lot more fun, right? RYAN: They do and I like setting goals to like, "Hey, there's a bottle of champagne in place when we hit this micro-goal on the way to our big goal." JON: I love it. Most people listening probably don't know that Ryan lives out in Sherwood, Oregon which is in the heart of Oregon Pinot, so I'm surprised you used champagne instead of a bottle of fine Pinot Noir but we'll pop it either way and enjoy. [chuckles] All right, Ryan. Well, this has been a wonderful conversation. I can't wait to set my goals as I mentioned, and hopefully everyone else is going to do the same for a successful 2020 and decade. We'll chat soon. RYAN: Yes, and if anybody really out there wants to talk goals, reach out. I mean, it's fun. Jon and I do this constantly for brands all over the planet. For me-- I'm sure for you as well, Jon, it's just it's fun. Reach out because there's conversations-- Even if you're not working with us, I just enjoy the process and talking through and helping companies align their goals. JON: Great. Well, we'll look forward to hearing from everybody. Thanks, Ryan. RYAN: Thanks, Jon.

Ethan Link (co-host of the Don't Quote Me podcast) is a yummy little macaroon ally of the LGBT community and our FINAL honorary Rude Dude. But that doesn't mean we treated Ethan any differently, no-no-no, far from it. Ethan, like his 133 predecessors, had to watch a perilously awful bit of television, and that bit of television is known as "All Stood Up". Jesse and Kimmy are at war. DJ and Michelle are at war. Stephanie and her new beau Ryan? Oh, they be at war, especially after Ryan makes the mistake of standing up our poor, sweet, dumb as potted dirt Steph. Who will win? Who will lose? WILL THE WORLD EVER BE THE SAME? Also: We preview some red hot summer bops from the impending How Rude! album, assess the acting skills of the Zwick children (they stink), and play one last round of Catchy Catchy, so don't move those earbuds from your waxy canals. We absolutely forbid it! COMING UP: One last bonus episode before the big finale! XOXO 

My guest this week is professional audio engineer Ryan Monette. Ryan graduated from Berklee College of Music with a degree in Music Production & Engineering. For the last 4.5 years he's been the Post-Production Audio Engineer on staff at Elevation Church, in Charlotte, NC, where he mixes their global TV show, and has many other responsibilities (boom operator, field recorder, sound designer, audio editor, etc.). You may have heard some of his work, as he sound-designed and mixed the opener video for the Circles conference for the past two years. He even had his own podcast for a short while (TheQueuecast.com). I asked Ryan to come on the show to share his journey towards becoming a professional audio engineer (a job that I've always wanted), and to get him to share some tips for anyone interested in working in audio/video professionally. Highlights, Takeaways & Quick Wins: Think long term and dream big. If you want to do anything with audio, start by getting a cheap USB microphone. Take advantage of free online courses to learn more about audio engineering. Get started with whatever you have. Your mix may sound completely different in a different environment, so listen with different headphones/speakers in different locations. Master the basics and keep going back to them. If you're mixing a podcast, make sure your levels are consistent. When mixing, always use a reference track. Show Notes Aaron: You graduated from Berklee College of Music with a degree in music production and engineering. For the last five years, you've been the post production audio engineer for Elevation Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. You have a lot of jobs there: boom operator, field recorder, sound designer, audio editor, and you mix their global TV show. Do you mix that live? Ryan: Not necessarily. We can get into that later. There's a process for that. Aaron: Some of the creative people here might have heard of some of your work. You sound designed and mixed the opening videos for the past two years of Circles Conference, which I was at. Have you been there for the past two years? Ryan: I haven't been personally, no. I have wanted to go. I love it from afar, and I want to go in person. Aaron: I wanted you to come on this show because when I first got started, I had dreams of being a professional audio engineer. I thought, “How cool would it be to work in audio and get paid for it? That'd be awesome!” I fell backwards into it by doing podcast editing as a hobby first, then for money, then I met Sean McCabe and ended up working for him full time. I edit podcasts and help out with a ton of other stuff. I asked you to come on the show to share your advice for anyone who's interested in working in audio/video professionally, and to talk about how you got there yourself. So tell me a little bit about how you got into audio. When did you first realize that this was something you wanted to do? Ryan's Journey to Becoming a Professional Audio Engineer Ryan: I love listening to your podcast, Aaron, and what I love about it is I feel like you and I have a lot of similarities in our backgrounds. You're a musician, a drummer, and I'm also a musician. I play several things. My primary instrument is bass, but along with that, I started on piano. I picked up bass, and with the bass I picked up guitar. I took some drum lessons here and there as well. I sing as well. I dabbled in a little bit of everything. I'm kind of a jack of all trades, master of none. I'm okay at a lot of things, but I'm not superb at one thing. Anyway, right around junior high or high school, I started playing the bass. I started playing in little bands here and there. When it came time for college, I had no clue what I wanted to do. All I knew was that I loved music. Aaron: Same here! Ryan: I was living in Las Vegas at the time, so I decided, well, everyone has to have that college experience, and I didn't want to go to college in the same city, so I decided that I needed that “being away from home” experience. I went to the University of Nevada, Reno. I took your basic, general classes, not knowing what I wanted to do. At this time, for my high school graduation, I had received a graduation present of a Macbook Pro. With that, of course, you get the wonderful iLife suite, including Garageband. As a musician, a whole new world was opened up to me. When I was in a band in high school, I was the gear head—I loved the PA and putting cables together. I was drawn to that. Once I had this Macbook Pro with Garageband and I had my bass and my guitar in my dorm, I was like, “I can create music!” I figured out how to work it and record myself. I bought a USB microphone, and that world was opened up. When I was there, I had a friend, and her brother went to this school where all they learned about was music. I was like, “Wait, you can do that? You can go to school for just music?” That's how I found out about Berklee School of Music. I applied, and you have to audition as well. I applied and auditioned, and the first time I tried, I actually didn't get into the music school I wanted to go to. Aaron: This sparks something in my mind. I feel like I might have read an article about Berklee or looked into it and thought, “No, they're really strict on who they accept, based on your performance.” That was intimidating to me at the time, because I never felt like I was that good of a drummer. Ryan: It was intimidating for me, too. Clearly, I wasn't up to par. Aaron: Yet you went for it. That's more than a lot of people would do. Ryan: Yeah. After I finished my first year at UNR, I moved back to Vegas and went to UNLV, the University of Nevada Las Vegas. I took all music classes, forgetting the general ed stuff you need to get a degree. I took all music classes—music theory, because I had never had actual music theory classes, so I thought I needed that. With that, there were some audio classes that I took as well. I was like, “Hey, I like this audio thing.” At the University of Nevada Las Vegas, I had my first exposure to a formal audio class, where I learned all the proper techniques. Later on that year, I applied and auditioned again for Berklee. I got accepted, and the next year, I moved to Boston and went to Berklee for about three and a half years. Then I graduated. When I went to Berklee, the only thing that drew me as a major was Music Production and Engineering. I naturally loved the gear side of things. I fell in love with recording. I was like, “This is what I want to do.” Aaron: You got to spend three and a half years there, studying and learning? Ryan: It is non-stop, 24/7, music, audio, and to be honest, I miss being in that environment so much. Aaron: That sounds fantastic. I always love setting aside time to take online classes, read books, and listen to interviews about audio. Think Long-Term Aaron: You were drawn to the audio engineering stuff, and then you graduated. Ryan: I can remember a specific time in my life, and I'm pretty sure it was my last semester at Berklee. They went by semesters instead of years. It was in one of my capstone classes. Our instructor asked us the typical, “Where do you see yourself in five years?” question. Aaron: I love that question now. I hated it when I was 22. ** Think long term and dream big** Aaron: Plan out where you want to be, because if you can envision it, then you can figure out how to get there. But you have to start by saying, “I want to do this thing someday.” For me, it was, “I want to do work from a laptop. How do I get there?” Now I'm there. So you were 22 and someone asked you, “Ryan, where do you want to be? Where do you see yourself in five years?” Ryan: At that moment, I was trying to figure that out, naturally, as you do when you're approaching the end of college. While I was at Berklee, I loved music. I loved recording music, but my absolute favorite class—they only had one of them, but it was the class I yearned for, that I wanted to take and put in all these extra hours for—was audio for visual media, audio for video. By far, that was my favorite class. The whole class, we were working toward our final project. You choose a five to seven minute clip from a well known movie, and all the audio is completely stripped. You have to recreate everything. That's all the dialogue, all the foley, all the ambient background, all the hard effects, and so on. You have to connect with a film scoring student there at Berklee, and they have to provide the score. I absolutely loved every aspect of that project and the process. When it came time to decide what I wanted to do with my life, it was between audio engineering at a recording studio, working at Disney as an Imagineer, or doing audio at a church. I have always been involved with church, playing on worship teams and whatnot, so I also saw myself doing audio for a church. Long story short, I was really privileged to dip my feet in all of those things after college. After I graduated, I moved back to Las Vegas. Eventually, I found an incredible recording studio, probably one of the top two recording studios in Las Vegas, and I landed an internship. First Audio Engineering Jobs Ryan: I say “internship” loosely, because your typical studio internship is all the stereotypical grunt work—taking out the trash, doing the coffee, and whatnot. I showed up, and they were like, “You went to Berklee? Berklee guys are cool. Here, hop in this session and help us out.” It was open to me, thrown at me, and next thing I knew, I was assisting on sessions with huge clients, I won't name drop. Aaron: You can drop a couple of names if you want. Ryan: I had a pretty fun time helping out with a session with the famous engineer Eddie Kramer, who is engineering for Carlos Santana. Aaron: Dang, man! That's awesome. Ryan: That was pretty incredible. But while I was there, I had this gut feeling inside of me saying, “This isn't it.” Aaron: It's fine, but it's not quite right? Ryan: I could see myself staying there and working my way up, but it didn't feel right. A few months after I realized that I didn't want to stay at the studio, I applied and was offered a job at Walt Disney World in Orlando, Florida. I packed my bags, moved to Orlando, and I was working as a stage technician at the Epcot park. There, they found out that I was an audio guy, so they pushed me toward the live audio side of things. I was mixing shows and bands at Epcot and what was at the time Downtown Disney, now Disney Springs, area. Same thing. Almost as soon as I got there, the same gut feeling came in. I was like, “This isn't it. I'm more of a studio engineer. I definitely don't want to do live stuff.” Although I love Disney, it just wasn't sitting right. I was only there three months before the next great opportunity came up, which is where I am right now. One of my friends told me about a job opening for this church in Charlotte, North Carolina, Elevation Church. I had actually been following them because of their podcast. At the time, I was kind of like, “I've got a job, whatever.” For some reason, I ended up on their website, looking at the job. I was reading, and I was like, “Wait a minute, they're looking for someone to do audio for video. That's what I really want to do!” On a whim, I threw out my resume. Next thing you know, I've been here going on five years. Aaron: Did you mention that you were a podcast listener when you sent in your resume? Ryan: Yeah. Aaron: The connections you can make through podcasting is really incredible. Ryan: It is. And I've been working there for 5 years now. How to Get Into Audio Engineering Aaron: I want to jump into what you do at your job at Elevation, but let's pause and do a section on what advice you would tell someone who's wanting to get started. I wrote a couple of things down here. I think it's hilarious that you got a Macbook and your first microphone was a USB microphone. Ryan: Which was the Blue Snowball, by the way. Aaron: That's the worst microphone! Ryan: I had no idea how to use it, either. If I find some of the earliest recordings I did, there are times I'm clipping to the max, square waves. Aaron: Probably bad mic technique, too. But hey; it got you started! If you want to do anything with audio, start by getting a cheap USB microphone. Any USB mics will work for getting started. I like the Blue Yeti, but it's like $100. The ATR-2100 is fine, too. You just have to get something that can record some audio and start playing with it. Start playing with Garageband. Start playing with the free programs. Learn how to enable recording on a track, how to set your input device to the microphone, how to set your output device to wherever your headphones are plugged into, whether that's your mic or your computer. It took me so long to figure that stuff out. I was like, “Why can't I hear the audio in my headphones? What is going on?” Ryan: Same here. Aaron: You have to set input and output, then you have to record enable or do the input monitoring, all that stuff. But start with the USB microphone. Take some basic classes. There are so many great online classes. If you don't have any money at all, if you're super broke like I was when I started, watch some free YouTube videos. Read a book. Ryan: If you go to Coursera.org, they're a website where you can pay to take online courses and get certifications and whatnot, but they also offer free online courses. They even offer free online courses from Berklee. I've seen a music production class there. I've taken a free online song writing class. Check out free online courses, because they can be a pool of incredible knowledge. I took a photography class on there. Coursera is a great place. They're great if you want to take free online courses. Aaron: There are places where you can learn all this stuff. You just have to invest some time. You really just have to start: Don't wait until you have $500 for an interface and $200 for some professional headphones and microphone. Whether you want to start a podcast, start recording audio for a video, or record and mix a demo for a band, start doing something. Stop spending all your time thinking about how you can't do anything because you don't have certain gear or you're not in the right place. You'll learn as you do, especially in audio. You're going to make a ton of mistakes. Ryan: That's how you learn, though! That's one of the most valuable things I've learned in life. You learn from your mistakes. Aaron: You don't really learn when everything goes well. Just Start Aaron: Any other advice you would give somebody, thinking back on how you got to where you are right now? Ryan: Honestly, you hit the nail on the head with “just start.” It's as simple and cliche as Nike, “Just do it.” There is always going to be the next latest craze, the gear, and we've all been susceptible to that. We say, “Oh, well, I could do this if I had X.” It starts with the drive and determination, wanting to do it. There's knowledge out there everywhere. You just have to dig for it. Chances are, you have at least something you can start with. Record something on your phone. Aaron: I have a friend who makes some awesome music on his iPhone. Ryan: Oh, totally. It's as simple as getting an adapter. You can plug your guitar or whatever into your phone. Aaron: Kids these days have it so easy! Ryan: You have Garageband on your phone. I remember when I was figuring this out in high school, and we actually had a four track tape recorder. That was my first start. Get started with whatever you have. Aaron: What kind of stuff do you do at the church? What's your day to day life like? Are you there every day, or is it just a couple of days a week? Ryan: Oh no, I'm definitely there every day. It has been a whirlwind for sure. In the past five years, I have probably played every audio role that there is to be played here. My main thing now is audio for broadcasts, pretty much anything that leaves the church. Our biggest output is the sermon, which goes to a lot of places. It also goes in the TV episode, which we talked about, which goes locally, nationally, and, I believe, globally as well. That's a lot of what I've done. We also create a lot of films, short films, for our worship experiences, anything you can imagine that's video and audio related. Audio post production, like we talk about. I'm constantly on video shoots using field recorders, the boom op, anything you can think of. Audio for video, I've done it. The Gear Ryan Uses Aaron: Let's talk about your gear a little bit. What kind of stuff are you using most in everyday life? I'll do a quick recap: I have the Shure Beta 87A Mic as my main podcasting microphone. It's attached to a Scarlett 18i20 USB Interface (update: I'm now using my Zoom H6 exclusively), which is plugged into a quadcore iMac that's a couple years old. Nothing super fancy, but I'm really happy with where I am. I remember wanting all this stuff back in 2011, thinking how awesome it would be to have it. I have a Zoom H6 portable recorder and a couple of SM58 microphones. I've been pairing down my gear collection because I'm planning on moving in the spring. What kind of stuff are you working with? I use Logic Pro X for editing, and then Izotope iZotope RX 5 for cleaning up background noise or fixing clipping. What about you? What's your day to day favorite gear? Ryan: We use a lot. There's a bunch of gear for field recording and then in my office, which is where I'm at right now. I'll start with my office. Right now, I'm talking into my personal mic, which is a Rode NT1A. It's very affordable. The Rode NT1A is a nice beginner mic which works and sounds great, and I use it for a lot of voiceover projects. Aaron: I like those mics. Ryan: I'm talking into that right now. We also use the Shure SM7B. We have a nice Neumann that we'll use for bigger projects. We like to use Universal Audio Interfaces, so I've got one of those. They're great. They're rock solid. You really can't beat them. At our main recording/editing audio work station, we use Pro Tools. That's very standard, and I've been using that for years and years. I use a lot of plugins. I use a lot of the Waves Plugins. I do use RX as well, and that's the bulk of it. I do a lot of processing, depending on the project. I have a really huge sound library for if I'm doing narrative pieces that involve sound design, sound effects. I have a great app called Audio Finder, which a lot of electronic musicians use to help them find sounds. I use it to help me find sounds. It's a nice way to catalogue sounds if you're a sound designer or anything like that. You can basically tag all these audio files with meta data, and you can search for sounds by their title. Or, if you type in a word in the search bar, it can pull up things based off the the metadata. If you have notes on something, it can find it. Audio Finder is a great way to find sounds. I have some other things in here. I have the Artist Mix Controller made by Avid. I use those if I'm automating stuff. I use those a lot, actually, when I'm mixing the sermons. I do a lot of automation for that. If I'm mixing a piece with a music bed or something, I like to automate the music by hand. It feels more natural, as opposed to clicking and making little dots. That's the bulk of it here in the office. All of our audio engineers have a nice pair of Focal monitors. I also have another set of monitors I built myself. When I mix TV episodes, I have an output routed to a TV here in my office so I can hear how it translates on TV speakers. Recording Audio for Video Ryan: On the front end of things, if we're doing shoots for videos, we use Sound Devices field recorders. We have three different models: the Sound Devices 788T 8 Channel Recorder, a 702 2 Channel Recorder, and then a 633 6 Channel Recorder. That last one is one of their newer models, which is great. Sound Devices are steep in price, but they are rock solid. One of the most trustworthy, well known field recorder brands on the market. That's what you'll see on pretty much every big budget shoot in some way. I do a lot of freelance on the side, which gives me the opportunity EPK shoots or BTS shoots for, recently, a show on HBO called Outcast. Aaron: Outcast? I've been seeing that (I watch Westworld). Ryan: I'm pretty sure it's the same writers or producers or something. I know it's the same writer as The Walking Dead. They shoot here in North Carolina, so with a local production company, we've done some interviews with some of the cast and crew. It's been really neat to be on set and see what they're using. It's cool to see how similar their world is to what we're doing day to day, just with more money and more resources. It's the same thing. Most of their audio guys have some sort of Sound Devices. A lot of them use the 788 as a backup recording rig, and they've got larger multitrack recorders as well, that are also made by Sound Devices. Sound Devices is a great brand. They're crazy expensive, but when you buy that, you know you've basically got it for life. Aaron: Yeah, I'm looking at the Sound Devices 788T SSD 8 Channel Portable Solid State Audio Recorder. It's almost $7,000. I love that! So fancy. Ryan: That SSD does have an internal hard drive. Ours has a hard drive as well, so it's great, because it has the internal hard drive, but you can also use CF cards. You can record on two different mediums. In case something runs out of space, you have it in two places. Aaron: This is super professional stuff. Ryan: Yeah. It is. It's top of the line. Aaron: Fantastic. For all the rest of you, just go with the Zoom H4N or the H6. Ryan: Hey, we do have a Zoom H4N, and we do use that every now and then. Before I came on staff, our first field recorder was the Zoom H4N. Aaron: If I could start over and go back to before I had any kind of interface at all, I think I would buy myself an H4N or an H6. Not only are they portable field recorders so you can walk around with them—they have little stereo condensor mics on them—but they work as audio interfaces, too. You can plug it into your computer with a USB cable and record straight to your computer if you do any kind of podcasting or stuff like that. It's good for the price. Otherwise, the little two channel interfaces are great. They're about $100 for a good one, but they aren't portable. You can't take them to a show or out to a video shoot the way you can an H4N or an H6 or something. Ryan: Speaking of Zoom, they've recently come into the more professional field recording market. About a year ago, they releases the F8, I believe, which is an 8 channel field recorder with 8 mic pres. It's $999 for something very comparable to a Sound Device. It's not quite as high-fidelity, but for anyone starting out, you're really not going to notice the difference. Mixing On Expensive Headphones or Monitors Aaron: I was going to ask you this earlier. You mentioned that you had Focal monitors. Did you listen to the episode I did a few episodes back where I talked about mixing on headphones (Episode 69: Do You Need Expensive Headphones to Mix a Podcast?)? Ryan: Yes, I did. Aaron: I mix on $10 Panasonics. What do you think about that? You can be totally honest with me. You can tell me that it's a stupid idea or that it's okay. Ryan: I agree to a certain extent. I agree that you should be listening to what you're making on whatever the majority of people are going to be listening to it on. For a lot of audio engineers mixing music, that's iPod earbuds, those standard earbuds you get. Something like that. When I mix TV, I have an output routed to a TV in my office, so I can hear it on TV speakers. I do also believe in mixing on something with some sort of higher fidelity type of monitoring environment, whether that's nicer speakers or nicer headphones. Naturally, you're going to hear things differently. The main thing to take away is how things translate. If you're listening to something on one source and you make it sound good there, that's great, but in a different environment, it may sound completely different. iPhone earbuds may not have the bass that a car stereo has. You want to hear how it translates from one thing to another. That's why it's good to at least listen to it on two different sources and not just narrow yourself down to one cruddy thing. That's good in theory, but again, the key takeaway is translation. Aaron: Maybe it's a little bit different for me and I can get away with it because of the consistency of the microphones and the recording environment set we use. Ryan: Yeah, totally. Aaron: I think if I was doing more stuff like you are, with videos and clients and all that kind of stuff, I would absolutely be using my higher fidelity headphones. Ryan: Very true. The bulk of your work is dialogue, podcasts. Aaron: Yeah, that's really it. Just dudes talking into a microphone. Ryan: Yeah. I have done a lot of work here where I'm working in a small studio, but a lot of my mixes have played in auditoriums and arenas. If you're working on projects like music or film that have different audio frequencies and spectrums, remember that sound will be perceived differently in different places. Aaron: How do you even test for that? Ryan: Here, I at least have a sense of how our auditorium sounds, so I've trained my ear to hear in advance and understand how it's going to translate. For something like when we did a live recording in the biggest arena here in Charlotte, we had a video opener piece. I was on point for mixing that, so basically, I had to work with tech and production to find a time after setup where I can bring my session, copy it onto a laptop, and play it through the PA. Then I can make any final mix tweaks there in the auditorium or the arena. I perfected it in my studio, and any small tweaks I was able to do in that actual environment. Granted, a lot of the times, we may not have that luxury. There are also great plugins you can buy that simulate different monitoring environments, like Sonarworks. If you have certain pairs of headphones, you can tell the program, “I have these headphones, now make my mix sound like it's coming through these headphones or these speakers,” so you can hear how it might translate. In that program, they have a final output like the Beats headphones. You can hear how it might sound on there, super bass heavy. Aaron: I hear they're getting better, but I still have never bought any Beats headphones. I probably should (just for testing purposes). Ryan: There are definitely programs out there to help you see how things translate to different monitors. On Location Gear Ryan: We were talking about the gear we use for on location recording. Sound Devices would be our main recorders. For our mics, we use Schoeps. It's a shotgun microphone, so it's a narrow polar pattern with good off axis rejection. Schoeps is a great brand. Again, you'll see this on professional movie sets. That's the mic we use. We have some Sennheiser shotguns as well, the ME66, we have a couple of those, which is more their entry shotgun mics. Recently, I rented some of the MKH416. Aaron: I would like one of those. The Sennheiser 416 is well known as the classic TV shotgun mic, right? Ryan: Exactly. I rented those out because I wanted to try it out for that reason. The Schoeps is very good and very well known on set as well, but so is the 416. I rented it to try it out. It's a trusted mic that a lot of people use for these professional things, and it doesn't really break the bank for what it is. Aaron: They're like $1,000, I think. Ryan: Yeah, and it sounded great. Aaron: The next mic I get is either going to be that or the Rode NTG 3. Ryan: I've heard a lot of great things about that. I haven't tried one myself. Aaron: That's the shotgun mics we shot my podcasting courses with. Ryan: Yeah, I know that Sean uses that for all of his videos. Aaron: I'm excited about getting to go work with those (I'm moving to San Antonio in March or April). Master the Basics Aaron: That's a pretty good run through of your gear. I'm sure you could keep going and discuss a lot more, but I don't think we need to go into that. It seems like you guys are at a super professional, high quality. You have made big investments in professional gear, which is fantastic. I encourage everyone to strive for that, to aim for that, but like we said earlier, use what you have right now. I don't have anything close to what you guys have, but I'm still doing my podcast. I'm doing the best I can with what I have. Ryan: It still sounds great. Aaron: Thanks! It's mostly just knowing how to set gain levels and not having a noisy room. It's crazy how far the basics will get you— everything else is just icing on the cake. I've been watching this video course called Zen and the Art of Work, which I really recommend to everybody. It's mindfulness training mixed with productivity training, which is such a great combination. In this course, he says, “So many of the masters continually revisit the basics.” Mastery is staying on a path. It's not reaching some final goal, it's more about being with the work and investing in getting better, but also revisiting the basics. He was talking about playing piano. He was like, “A lot of times, I just start by touching the keys, pressing the keys, and then doing basic scales over and over again.” It's true. When you get so good at the basics that you don't have to think about it, that's when you start to expand and get to that level where people say, “Wow, you're so good at that. How did you get so good?” You're like, “That was just doing the basics. It's not anything fancy.” It's so important to master the basics and keep going back to them. Learning More Aaron: What's next for you? How do you invest in yourself and improve? Or are you working so much that you always have more learning opportunities? Do you buy books or courses or follow any websites to learn more about this audio stuff? Ryan: Honestly? We had a shift at work to where my role has shifted to mainly just broadcasts. That has enabled me to have a little bit more flexibility and free time, so I've been doing a lot more freelance work. That's great, because it energizes me and keeps me engaged. It keeps me from routine. Routine is great. I love routine, that's very much my personality, but freelance work keeps things interesting. For me, it's all about where and how I can get inspired and constantly feeding that. It's about feeding my desire for creativity. We're all creatives. We like to create. We were designed to be creators, really. Everything I try to do is about how I can become a better creator and what I can create next. It's about finding things that inspire me, really. We touched lightly on a few of the resources that I like, things I've learned and places I've picked things up. If you're interested in audio for post production, there are a couple of great books by Ric Viers. I have two books by him that are really great. The first one is The Sound Effects Bible, and it's not just sound effects in there. He talks about everything from gear to microphones, basics, setting proper gains, compression, some mixing techniques, etc. He also has The Location Sound Bible. There are a lot of similarities, but there's also a lot of talk about gear, shotgun mics, lop mics, recorders, and then he also dives into some of the basics when it comes to mixing, proper gain staging, and so on. Those are a really great pool of knowledge in book form. There are a lot of other books out there, but I have found those two to be really helpful. Other than that, when it comes to audio for video, it's a very small, niche field. There isn't a crazy amount of stuff out there, like there might be for mixing music. For that, you've got tons. You've got Pensado's Place, all these people on YouTube putting out channels on mixing, mixing from home, mixing on a budget, etc. There's plenty of that. Aaron: Graham Cochrane and Joe Gilder are pretty awesome resources for anyone who wants to start a home studio. Ryan: YouTube can be a pool of knowledge for anything and everything, too. You have to dig a little bit and do some searching. On the inspiration side, for me, since I love audio for video, Sound Works Collection is a great place. They'll do mini videos interviewing the sound people that did sound for X movie. Whether it was the last Harry Potter or anything and everything, big budget films, they'll sit down with the recording people, the sound designers, the mixers… It's really cool, because they'll show footage of them doing stuff on location or the foley artists. It's cool to see their process. For me, that helps me stay inspired. It gives me ideas to do other things. They have a podcast as well, and that's great. The videos can be kind of short, maybe 10 minutes or so, but the podcast will go on at length, talking to the audio guys who have made sound for videos possible. It will also be music composers for movies as well. That's really great. I found that great not only as inspiration, but to know what and how audio professionals for big budget films get inside their minds, how they're thinking, and what their process looks like. It's neat to see stuff about sound engineers for big movies and realize that we're not so different. Dealing With a Broad Loudness Spectrum (Dynamics) Aaron: I have a nerdy question here. This is about normalizing and compression, I think. Aiya had asked, “I'm so torn about normalizing sound clips. If I'm working on a longer project in segments, would it be better to adjust my peaks manually for the sake of consistency? It's for a video project.” I'm hearing that there are differences in video volumes. How do you deal with that? Do you do compression? Do you do automation for the different parts? How do you deal with dynamics? Ryan: It depends on the project. I'll talk about how I would mix a sermon, because that's very dynamic. Our pastor will go from whispering, holding his handheld mic close to his stomach, to screaming, holding the microphone, cupping the capsule. Power and respect to him, because it creates a certain atmosphere, which has a powerful effect. That's what I'm dealing with on a weekly basis. That dynamic range is tremendous. Keep in mind, this is going to TV eventually. TV has very strict restrictions. It's not so much on level, but on perceived level. There's a difference between what you see meter and what you're hearing. I can talk at length about that, too. Aaron: Could you give us a super short version? I'm kind of aware of that, but since I just mix in Logic, I'm not sure how to measure it. Is there a way to measure it in Logic? Do you know? Is there a plugin you use? Ryan: I use a plugin from Waves. It's a loudness meter, and its just that. It has a lot of presets, so I'll use the TV standard preset. I'll use it for ATSE85, and I'll use it for a dialogue bus. They've also got one for a master bus. The standard right there is your average level around -24 dB LUFS, so that's full scale. If you have a classic meters, your peak would be zero, so that would average metering right around -10. At least for TV, I've got a hard limiter at -10 dB, to where nothing can go above that. The difference between levels on a meter vs. perceived loudness is the differences between what we hear and the actual energy. In our TV program, we'll have the sermon, but we'll also have a talking heads segments, which is dialogue and a music bed. We'll also go into segments where they'll go into worship from our live album, which had been mixed and mastered as an album. That thing is slammed. If you look at the wave form, it's a sausage. If I'm setting all that by the meters alone and they're all hitting -10, it may look right, but if I look at my loudness meter, that worship segment is going to be off the charts. There's so much more content in there. There's so much going on with all the different frequency ranges as opposed to a dialogue track, which is a narrow field in the frequency spectrum. That's the gist of it. When it comes to my technique for controlling dynamics, for something like mixing a sermon, if I'm going down my plugin chain, the first thing I naturally have is a high pass filter. I'm rolling off those unnecessary lows that are hogging energy. The next thing I'll do is use a compressor, and I'll set the attack to right in the middle, so not fast or slow, and I'll have the release time at fast. We don't want to hear it pumping, letting go. That's catching my peaks. It's not doing a crazy amount, but it kind of is. That's helping do a lot of the bulk compression. Before anything really hits the compressor, I will go through, and as I work my way through the mix, I will clip gain the wave form, so that, say, if he's whispering somewhere, I might keep that, depending on how I have my compressor set. Then, if we go up to a part where he's screaming and my wave form is huge, I will take that down and create those nodes, those dots in the wave form, and drag the actual clip volume down, that gain down. That way, it's not going into the compressor at this high gain level. It's hitting the compressor evenly as the rest of it would. That way, it's not driving the compressor crazy. Then I'll go through and do some EQ and DSing and whatnot. I might add some more compressors in there, just to grab some of those little things coming through. After that, it's subtle, just smoothing it out. Aaron: It is a little bit of both. If she has access to an audio editing program—I don't know what she's using for editing. If you can put a compressor on the track, do that. It's not exactly the same, but I did a YouTube video about how I process podcast vocals, and it's very similar. For podcast vocals, I start with a Logic noise removal plugin. Ryan: I actually have my noise suppressor, and I'll use that later on down in my signal chain. My way of thinking is that if I've got all this compression going on, the compression is narrowing that dynamic range, so it's bringing up that noise floor. I tend to do my noise suppression after the bulk of that compression, because the noise floor is higher and it's easier to work on a supressor. If that makes sense. Aaron: I've thought a lot about whether you should do the noise removal before or after you add a bunch of gain with a compressor or something, and I can't think of a good reason that it matters. You can take out the noise before you add a bunch of gain, or you can add a bunch of gain and take out the noise afterwards. Which is better? I don't know. Anyways, after the noise removal plugin, I put an EQ with a high pass filter, a peak compressor, an RMS or an average level compressor, and then a limiter. Ryan: Like I mentioned earlier, before I had my long-winded answer, it also depends on what it is you're mixing—whether it's music, or a podcast, or something for film. When it comes to dialogue for film, you want it to sound as natural as possible, but you also want to be able to hear if someone is whispering. When it comes to that, I'll still use a compressor, but it will be very, very light. If there's anything I need to do to meet loudness, that I will automate the volume on my dialogue bus. I'll bring that up. That way, it sounds a little bit more natural, instead of solely relying on a compressor to do all the work for you. Aaron: That makes sense. For podcasts, if I notice that there's a section where someone was talking much quieter, like if a guest backed away and talked like that for four or five minutes and then went back to the normal distance from the microphone, in Logic, I'll turn that into its own clip. I make a cut on either side of the quiet part, and then, in Logic, you can double click on it and change gain by hitting Control G. Then you can add 3, 4, or 5 dB to it. That works out pretty well. If it's every five seconds or I have to do it more than five or six times in an episode, I won't do the clip gain changes, I'll just use a compressor. Look at the overall audio file and see if there are long stretches where you can use automation to change the gain, or change the clip gain. Common Audio Mistakes Podcasters Make Ryan: You asked a question that I think would be good to talk about in regards to podcasting. You had asked, “What do you like about podcasts? What common mistakes do you hear people make?” Initially, I read this and thought, “I don't know,” but I spent some time thinking about it. This is great, because it piggybacks off the loudness thing. A lot of the mistakes that I hear when it comes to podcasts in regards to audio is the levels and loudness aspect. I'll listen to some podcasts that sound great, and I'll put on another podcast where the whole thing is super quiet. Then they start laughing, and it's really loud. There are some, like mine, where they have a music bed underneath the entire thing, and then sometimes the music bed is so quiet that you hardly know it's there. You're like, “What the heck is that noise in the background?” Sometimes, it's the opposite. Sometimes, the music bed is way too loud. That's a few of the things I've noticed. A lot of the fixes relate to what we just talked about. It helps to have knowledge of levels and perceived loudness. If you're mixing a podcast, make sure your levels are consistent. One of the biggest things I can recommend for anyone mixing anything, whether it's music, movies, a podcast, is the importance of having a reference track. Aaron: Yeah, I don't talk about that enough. Ryan: That is huge. Professional audio engineers who mix platinum records still do this. They will pull in a track from a different song that is mixed well and is mixed how they want theirs to sound, and they'll have it muted in their session. When they want to have a reference to listen to or train their ear, they'll un-mute it, and they'll go, “Oh, okay.” I'm sure you've done the same thing as me, where you'll be so involved in a mix, you're in it, and you think it sounds great, and then maybe you go away. You go home, sleep, and maybe you come back, and you open it up and you go, “Woah! What was I thinking!” You can get so involved in it that the blinders go up. You get tunnel vision, and you're not aware to some things. It's good to have a reference track or get an outsider's opinion on a mix. The main takeaway here is the reference track. That would help with anything, whether it's the timbre, how you're EQing, or the loudness. You pull in their track and it's far louder than yours, and you automatically know that you need to do something about it. Aaron: That's a great idea. You can kind of do this before or after. You go through and you edit your whole podcast, get everything set up the way you want, create an extra track, and then find a podcast that sounds really good—This American Life or pretty much anything by NPR—download an episode, drop it into your editing program, and play it, mute it, and see what the difference is. Maybe you need to add some gain with an adaptive limiter or with a compressor, or maybe you can tell that your track sounds way sharper or harsher. Are there are too many high frequencies or too much bass compared to your reference track? You can adjust those things. I'm so glad you mentioned that. I've never thought of that before, and that's such a good idea. Ryan: It's one of those things you don't think of much, but once you do it, you're like, “Oh my gosh!” It's really eye opening and really helpful. You can find Ryan online at ryanmonette.com, and follow him on Twitter @RyanMonette.

My guest this week is professional audio engineer Ryan Monette. Ryan graduated from Berklee College of Music with a degree in Music Production & Engineering. For the last 4.5 years he's been the Post-Production Audio Engineer on staff at Elevation Church, in Charlotte, NC, where he mixes their global TV show, and has many other responsibilities (boom operator, field recorder, sound designer, audio editor, etc.). You may have heard some of his work, as he sound-designed and mixed the opener video for the Circles conference for the past two years. He even had his own podcast for a short while (TheQueuecast.com). I asked Ryan to come on the show to share his journey towards becoming a professional audio engineer (a job that I've always wanted), and to get him to share some tips for anyone interested in working in audio/video professionally.Highlights, Takeaways & Quick Wins:Think long term and dream big.If you want to do anything with audio, start by getting a cheap USB microphone.Take advantage of free online courses to learn more about audio engineering.Get started with whatever you have.Your mix may sound completely different in a different environment, so listen with different headphones/speakers in different locations.Master the basics and keep going back to them.If you’re mixing a podcast, make sure your levels are consistent.When mixing, always use a reference track.Show NotesAaron: You graduated from Berklee College of Music with a degree in music production and engineering. For the last five years, you’ve been the post production audio engineer for Elevation Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. You have a lot of jobs there: boom operator, field recorder, sound designer, audio editor, and you mix their global TV show. Do you mix that live?Ryan: Not necessarily. We can get into that later. There’s a process for that.Aaron: Some of the creative people here might have heard of some of your work. You sound designed and mixed the opening videos for the past two years of Circles Conference, which I was at. Have you been there for the past two years?Ryan: I haven’t been personally, no. I have wanted to go. I love it from afar, and I want to go in person.Aaron: I wanted you to come on this show because when I first got started, I had dreams of being a professional audio engineer. I thought, “How cool would it be to work in audio and get paid for it? That’d be awesome!”I fell backwards into it by doing podcast editing as a hobby first, then for money, then I met Sean McCabe and ended up working for him full time. I edit podcasts and help out with a ton of other stuff. I asked you to come on the show to share your advice for anyone who’s interested in working in audio/video professionally, and to talk about how you got there yourself. So tell me a little bit about how you got into audio. When did you first realize that this was something you wanted to do?Ryan’s Journey to Becoming a Professional Audio EngineerRyan: I love listening to your podcast, Aaron, and what I love about it is I feel like you and I have a lot of similarities in our backgrounds. You’re a musician, a drummer, and I’m also a musician. I play several things. My primary instrument is bass, but along with that, I started on piano. I picked up bass, and with the bass I picked up guitar. I took some drum lessons here and there as well.I sing as well. I dabbled in a little bit of everything. I’m kind of a jack of all trades, master of none. I’m okay at a lot of things, but I’m not superb at one thing. Anyway, right around junior high or high school, I started playing the bass. I started playing in little bands here and there. When it came time for college, I had no clue what I wanted to do. All I knew was that I loved music.Aaron: Same here!Ryan: I was living in Las Vegas at the time, so I decided, well, everyone has to have that college experience, and I didn’t want to go to college in the same city, so I decided that I needed that “being away from home” experience. I went to the University of Nevada, Reno. I took your basic, general classes, not knowing what I wanted to do. At this time, for my high school graduation, I had received a graduation present of a Macbook Pro.With that, of course, you get the wonderful iLife suite, including Garageband. As a musician, a whole new world was opened up to me. When I was in a band in high school, I was the gear head—I loved the PA and putting cables together.I was drawn to that. Once I had this Macbook Pro with Garageband and I had my bass and my guitar in my dorm, I was like, “I can create music!” I figured out how to work it and record myself. I bought a USB microphone, and that world was opened up. When I was there, I had a friend, and her brother went to this school where all they learned about was music. I was like, “Wait, you can do that? You can go to school for just music?”That’s how I found out about Berklee School of Music. I applied, and you have to audition as well. I applied and auditioned, and the first time I tried, I actually didn’t get into the music school I wanted to go to.Aaron: This sparks something in my mind. I feel like I might have read an article about Berklee or looked into it and thought, “No, they’re really strict on who they accept, based on your performance.” That was intimidating to me at the time, because I never felt like I was that good of a drummer.Ryan: It was intimidating for me, too. Clearly, I wasn’t up to par.Aaron: Yet you went for it. That’s more than a lot of people would do.Ryan: Yeah. After I finished my first year at UNR, I moved back to Vegas and went to UNLV, the University of Nevada Las Vegas. I took all music classes, forgetting the general ed stuff you need to get a degree. I took all music classes—music theory, because I had never had actual music theory classes, so I thought I needed that. With that, there were some audio classes that I took as well. I was like, “Hey, I like this audio thing.”At the University of Nevada Las Vegas, I had my first exposure to a formal audio class, where I learned all the proper techniques. Later on that year, I applied and auditioned again for Berklee. I got accepted, and the next year, I moved to Boston and went to Berklee for about three and a half years. Then I graduated. When I went to Berklee, the only thing that drew me as a major was Music Production and Engineering. I naturally loved the gear side of things. I fell in love with recording. I was like, “This is what I want to do.”Aaron: You got to spend three and a half years there, studying and learning?Ryan: It is non-stop, 24/7, music, audio, and to be honest, I miss being in that environment so much.Aaron: That sounds fantastic. I always love setting aside time to take online classes, read books, and listen to interviews about audio.Think Long-TermAaron: You were drawn to the audio engineering stuff, and then you graduated.Ryan: I can remember a specific time in my life, and I’m pretty sure it was my last semester at Berklee. They went by semesters instead of years. It was in one of my capstone classes. Our instructor asked us the typical, “Where do you see yourself in five years?” question.Aaron: I love that question now. I hated it when I was 22.** Think long term and dream big**Aaron: Plan out where you want to be, because if you can envision it, then you can figure out how to get there. But you have to start by saying, “I want to do this thing someday.” For me, it was, “I want to do work from a laptop. How do I get there?” Now I’m there. So you were 22 and someone asked you, “Ryan, where do you want to be? Where do you see yourself in five years?”Ryan: At that moment, I was trying to figure that out, naturally, as you do when you’re approaching the end of college. While I was at Berklee, I loved music. I loved recording music, but my absolute favorite class—they only had one of them, but it was the class I yearned for, that I wanted to take and put in all these extra hours for—was audio for visual media, audio for video.By far, that was my favorite class. The whole class, we were working toward our final project. You choose a five to seven minute clip from a well known movie, and all the audio is completely stripped. You have to recreate everything. That’s all the dialogue, all the foley, all the ambient background, all the hard effects, and so on. You have to connect with a film scoring student there at Berklee, and they have to provide the score. I absolutely loved every aspect of that project and the process. When it came time to decide what I wanted to do with my life, it was between audio engineering at a recording studio, working at Disney as an Imagineer, or doing audio at a church.I have always been involved with church, playing on worship teams and whatnot, so I also saw myself doing audio for a church. Long story short, I was really privileged to dip my feet in all of those things after college. After I graduated, I moved back to Las Vegas. Eventually, I found an incredible recording studio, probably one of the top two recording studios in Las Vegas, and I landed an internship.First Audio Engineering JobsRyan: I say “internship” loosely, because your typical studio internship is all the stereotypical grunt work—taking out the trash, doing the coffee, and whatnot. I showed up, and they were like, “You went to Berklee? Berklee guys are cool. Here, hop in this session and help us out.” It was open to me, thrown at me, and next thing I knew, I was assisting on sessions with huge clients, I won’t name drop.Aaron: You can drop a couple of names if you want.Ryan: I had a pretty fun time helping out with a session with the famous engineer Eddie Kramer, who is engineering for Carlos Santana.Aaron: Dang, man! That’s awesome.Ryan: That was pretty incredible. But while I was there, I had this gut feeling inside of me saying, “This isn’t it.”Aaron: It’s fine, but it’s not quite right?Ryan: I could see myself staying there and working my way up, but it didn’t feel right. A few months after I realized that I didn’t want to stay at the studio, I applied and was offered a job at Walt Disney World in Orlando, Florida.I packed my bags, moved to Orlando, and I was working as a stage technician at the Epcot park. There, they found out that I was an audio guy, so they pushed me toward the live audio side of things. I was mixing shows and bands at Epcot and what was at the time Downtown Disney, now Disney Springs, area. Same thing. Almost as soon as I got there, the same gut feeling came in.I was like, “This isn’t it. I’m more of a studio engineer. I definitely don’t want to do live stuff.” Although I love Disney, it just wasn’t sitting right. I was only there three months before the next great opportunity came up, which is where I am right now. One of my friends told me about a job opening for this church in Charlotte, North Carolina, Elevation Church. I had actually been following them because of their podcast.At the time, I was kind of like, “I’ve got a job, whatever.” For some reason, I ended up on their website, looking at the job. I was reading, and I was like, “Wait a minute, they’re looking for someone to do audio for video. That’s what I really want to do!” On a whim, I threw out my resume. Next thing you know, I’ve been here going on five years.Aaron: Did you mention that you were a podcast listener when you sent in your resume?Ryan: Yeah.Aaron: The connections you can make through podcasting is really incredible.Ryan: It is. And I’ve been working there for 5 years now.How to Get Into Audio EngineeringAaron: I want to jump into what you do at your job at Elevation, but let’s pause and do a section on what advice you would tell someone who’s wanting to get started. I wrote a couple of things down here. I think it’s hilarious that you got a Macbook and your first microphone was a USB microphone.Ryan: Which was the Blue Snowball, by the way.Aaron: That’s the worst microphone!Ryan: I had no idea how to use it, either. If I find some of the earliest recordings I did, there are times I’m clipping to the max, square waves.Aaron: Probably bad mic technique, too. But hey; it got you started!If you want to do anything with audio, start by getting a cheap USB microphone.Any USB mics will work for getting started. I like the Blue Yeti, but it’s like $100. The ATR-2100 is fine, too. You just have to get something that can record some audio and start playing with it.Start playing with Garageband. Start playing with the free programs. Learn how to enable recording on a track, how to set your input device to the microphone, how to set your output device to wherever your headphones are plugged into, whether that’s your mic or your computer. It took me so long to figure that stuff out. I was like, “Why can’t I hear the audio in my headphones? What is going on?”Ryan: Same here.Aaron: You have to set input and output, then you have to record enable or do the input monitoring, all that stuff. But start with the USB microphone. Take some basic classes. There are so many great online classes. If you don’t have any money at all, if you’re super broke like I was when I started, watch some free YouTube videos. Read a book.Ryan: If you go to Coursera.org, they’re a website where you can pay to take online courses and get certifications and whatnot, but they also offer free online courses. They even offer free online courses from Berklee. I’ve seen a music production class there. I’ve taken a free online song writing class.Check out free online courses, because they can be a pool of incredible knowledge.I took a photography class on there. Coursera is a great place. They’re great if you want to take free online courses.Aaron: There are places where you can learn all this stuff. You just have to invest some time. You really just have to start: Don’t wait until you have $500 for an interface and $200 for some professional headphones and microphone. Whether you want to start a podcast, start recording audio for a video, or record and mix a demo for a band, start doing something.Stop spending all your time thinking about how you can’t do anything because you don’t have certain gear or you’re not in the right place. You’ll learn as you do, especially in audio. You’re going to make a ton of mistakes.Ryan: That’s how you learn, though! That’s one of the most valuable things I’ve learned in life. You learn from your mistakes.Aaron: You don’t really learn when everything goes well.Just StartAaron: Any other advice you would give somebody, thinking back on how you got to where you are right now?Ryan: Honestly, you hit the nail on the head with “just start.” It’s as simple and cliche as Nike, “Just do it.” There is always going to be the next latest craze, the gear, and we’ve all been susceptible to that. We say, “Oh, well, I could do this if I had X.” It starts with the drive and determination, wanting to do it. There’s knowledge out there everywhere. You just have to dig for it.Chances are, you have at least something you can start with. Record something on your phone.Aaron: I have a friend who makes some awesome music on his iPhone.Ryan: Oh, totally. It’s as simple as getting an adapter. You can plug your guitar or whatever into your phone.Aaron: Kids these days have it so easy!Ryan: You have Garageband on your phone. I remember when I was figuring this out in high school, and we actually had a four track tape recorder. That was my first start. Get started with whatever you have.Aaron: What kind of stuff do you do at the church? What’s your day to day life like? Are you there every day, or is it just a couple of days a week?Ryan: Oh no, I’m definitely there every day. It has been a whirlwind for sure. In the past five years, I have probably played every audio role that there is to be played here. My main thing now is audio for broadcasts, pretty much anything that leaves the church. Our biggest output is the sermon, which goes to a lot of places.It also goes in the TV episode, which we talked about, which goes locally, nationally, and, I believe, globally as well. That’s a lot of what I’ve done. We also create a lot of films, short films, for our worship experiences, anything you can imagine that’s video and audio related. Audio post production, like we talk about. I’m constantly on video shoots using field recorders, the boom op, anything you can think of. Audio for video, I’ve done it.The Gear Ryan UsesAaron: Let’s talk about your gear a little bit. What kind of stuff are you using most in everyday life? I’ll do a quick recap: I have the Shure Beta 87A Mic as my main podcasting microphone. It’s attached to a Scarlett 18i20 USB Interface (update: I’m now using my Zoom H6 exclusively), which is plugged into a quadcore iMac that’s a couple years old.Nothing super fancy, but I’m really happy with where I am. I remember wanting all this stuff back in 2011, thinking how awesome it would be to have it. I have a Zoom H6 portable recorder and a couple of SM58 microphones. I’ve been pairing down my gear collection because I’m planning on moving in the spring.What kind of stuff are you working with? I use Logic Pro X for editing, and then Izotope iZotope RX 5 for cleaning up background noise or fixing clipping. What about you? What’s your day to day favorite gear?Ryan: We use a lot. There’s a bunch of gear for field recording and then in my office, which is where I’m at right now. I’ll start with my office. Right now, I’m talking into my personal mic, which is a Rode NT1A. It’s very affordable.The Rode NT1A is a nice beginner mic which works and sounds great, and I use it for a lot of voiceover projects.Aaron: I like those mics.Ryan: I’m talking into that right now. We also use the Shure SM7B. We have a nice Neumann that we’ll use for bigger projects. We like to use Universal Audio Interfaces, so I’ve got one of those. They’re great. They’re rock solid. You really can’t beat them.At our main recording/editing audio work station, we use Pro Tools. That’s very standard, and I’ve been using that for years and years. I use a lot of plugins. I use a lot of the Waves Plugins. I do use RX as well, and that’s the bulk of it. I do a lot of processing, depending on the project.I have a really huge sound library for if I’m doing narrative pieces that involve sound design, sound effects. I have a great app called Audio Finder, which a lot of electronic musicians use to help them find sounds. I use it to help me find sounds. It’s a nice way to catalogue sounds if you’re a sound designer or anything like that.You can basically tag all these audio files with meta data, and you can search for sounds by their title. Or, if you type in a word in the search bar, it can pull up things based off the the metadata. If you have notes on something, it can find it. Audio Finder is a great way to find sounds.I have some other things in here. I have the Artist Mix Controller made by Avid. I use those if I’m automating stuff. I use those a lot, actually, when I’m mixing the sermons. I do a lot of automation for that. If I’m mixing a piece with a music bed or something, I like to automate the music by hand.It feels more natural, as opposed to clicking and making little dots. That’s the bulk of it here in the office. All of our audio engineers have a nice pair of Focal monitors. I also have another set of monitors I built myself. When I mix TV episodes, I have an output routed to a TV here in my office so I can hear how it translates on TV speakers.Recording Audio for VideoRyan: On the front end of things, if we’re doing shoots for videos, we use Sound Devices field recorders. We have three different models: the Sound Devices 788T 8 Channel Recorder, a 702 2 Channel Recorder, and then a 633 6 Channel Recorder. That last one is one of their newer models, which is great.Sound Devices are steep in price, but they are rock solid.One of the most trustworthy, well known field recorder brands on the market. That’s what you’ll see on pretty much every big budget shoot in some way. I do a lot of freelance on the side, which gives me the opportunity EPK shoots or BTS shoots for, recently, a show on HBO called Outcast.Aaron: Outcast? I’ve been seeing that (I watch Westworld).Ryan: I’m pretty sure it’s the same writers or producers or something. I know it’s the same writer as The Walking Dead. They shoot here in North Carolina, so with a local production company, we’ve done some interviews with some of the cast and crew. It’s been really neat to be on set and see what they’re using. It’s cool to see how similar their world is to what we’re doing day to day, just with more money and more resources.It’s the same thing. Most of their audio guys have some sort of Sound Devices. A lot of them use the 788 as a backup recording rig, and they’ve got larger multitrack recorders as well, that are also made by Sound Devices. Sound Devices is a great brand. They’re crazy expensive, but when you buy that, you know you’ve basically got it for life.Aaron: Yeah, I’m looking at the Sound Devices 788T SSD 8 Channel Portable Solid State Audio Recorder. It’s almost $7,000. I love that! So fancy.Ryan: That SSD does have an internal hard drive. Ours has a hard drive as well, so it’s great, because it has the internal hard drive, but you can also use CF cards. You can record on two different mediums. In case something runs out of space, you have it in two places.Aaron: This is super professional stuff.Ryan: Yeah. It is. It’s top of the line.Aaron: Fantastic. For all the rest of you, just go with the Zoom H4N or the H6.Ryan: Hey, we do have a Zoom H4N, and we do use that every now and then. Before I came on staff, our first field recorder was the Zoom H4N.Aaron: If I could start over and go back to before I had any kind of interface at all, I think I would buy myself an H4N or an H6. Not only are they portable field recorders so you can walk around with them—they have little stereo condensor mics on them—but they work as audio interfaces, too. You can plug it into your computer with a USB cable and record straight to your computer if you do any kind of podcasting or stuff like that.It’s good for the price. Otherwise, the little two channel interfaces are great. They’re about $100 for a good one, but they aren’t portable. You can’t take them to a show or out to a video shoot the way you can an H4N or an H6 or something.Ryan: Speaking of Zoom, they’ve recently come into the more professional field recording market. About a year ago, they releases the F8, I believe, which is an 8 channel field recorder with 8 mic pres. It’s $999 for something very comparable to a Sound Device. It’s not quite as high-fidelity, but for anyone starting out, you’re really not going to notice the difference.Mixing On Expensive Headphones or MonitorsAaron: I was going to ask you this earlier. You mentioned that you had Focal monitors. Did you listen to the episode I did a few episodes back where I talked about mixing on headphones (Episode 69: Do You Need Expensive Headphones to Mix a Podcast?)?Ryan: Yes, I did.Aaron: I mix on $10 Panasonics. What do you think about that? You can be totally honest with me. You can tell me that it’s a stupid idea or that it’s okay.Ryan: I agree to a certain extent. I agree that you should be listening to what you’re making on whatever the majority of people are going to be listening to it on. For a lot of audio engineers mixing music, that’s iPod earbuds, those standard earbuds you get. Something like that. When I mix TV, I have an output routed to a TV in my office, so I can hear it on TV speakers.I do also believe in mixing on something with some sort of higher fidelity type of monitoring environment, whether that’s nicer speakers or nicer headphones. Naturally, you’re going to hear things differently. The main thing to take away is how things translate.If you’re listening to something on one source and you make it sound good there, that’s great, but in a different environment, it may sound completely different.iPhone earbuds may not have the bass that a car stereo has. You want to hear how it translates from one thing to another. That’s why it’s good to at least listen to it on two different sources and not just narrow yourself down to one cruddy thing. That’s good in theory, but again, the key takeaway is translation.Aaron: Maybe it’s a little bit different for me and I can get away with it because of the consistency of the microphones and the recording environment set we use.Ryan: Yeah, totally.Aaron: I think if I was doing more stuff like you are, with videos and clients and all that kind of stuff, I would absolutely be using my higher fidelity headphones.Ryan: Very true. The bulk of your work is dialogue, podcasts.Aaron: Yeah, that’s really it. Just dudes talking into a microphone.Ryan: Yeah. I have done a lot of work here where I’m working in a small studio, but a lot of my mixes have played in auditoriums and arenas.If you’re working on projects like music or film that have different audio frequencies and spectrums, remember that sound will be perceived differently in different places.Aaron: How do you even test for that?Ryan: Here, I at least have a sense of how our auditorium sounds, so I’ve trained my ear to hear in advance and understand how it’s going to translate. For something like when we did a live recording in the biggest arena here in Charlotte, we had a video opener piece. I was on point for mixing that, so basically, I had to work with tech and production to find a time after setup where I can bring my session, copy it onto a laptop, and play it through the PA.Then I can make any final mix tweaks there in the auditorium or the arena. I perfected it in my studio, and any small tweaks I was able to do in that actual environment. Granted, a lot of the times, we may not have that luxury. There are also great plugins you can buy that simulate different monitoring environments, like Sonarworks.If you have certain pairs of headphones, you can tell the program, “I have these headphones, now make my mix sound like it’s coming through these headphones or these speakers,” so you can hear how it might translate. In that program, they have a final output like the Beats headphones. You can hear how it might sound on there, super bass heavy.Aaron: I hear they’re getting better, but I still have never bought any Beats headphones. I probably should (just for testing purposes).Ryan: There are definitely programs out there to help you see how things translate to different monitors.On Location GearRyan: We were talking about the gear we use for on location recording. Sound Devices would be our main recorders. For our mics, we use Schoeps. It’s a shotgun microphone, so it’s a narrow polar pattern with good off axis rejection. Schoeps is a great brand. Again, you’ll see this on professional movie sets.That’s the mic we use. We have some Sennheiser shotguns as well, the ME66, we have a couple of those, which is more their entry shotgun mics. Recently, I rented some of the MKH416.Aaron: I would like one of those. The Sennheiser 416 is well known as the classic TV shotgun mic, right?Ryan: Exactly. I rented those out because I wanted to try it out for that reason. The Schoeps is very good and very well known on set as well, but so is the 416. I rented it to try it out. It’s a trusted mic that a lot of people use for these professional things, and it doesn’t really break the bank for what it is.Aaron: They’re like $1,000, I think.Ryan: Yeah, and it sounded great.Aaron: The next mic I get is either going to be that or the Rode NTG 3.Ryan: I’ve heard a lot of great things about that. I haven’t tried one myself.Aaron: That’s the shotgun mics we shot my podcasting courses with.Ryan: Yeah, I know that Sean uses that for all of his videos.Aaron: I’m excited about getting to go work with those (I’m moving to San Antonio in March or April).Master the BasicsAaron: That’s a pretty good run through of your gear. I’m sure you could keep going and discuss a lot more, but I don’t think we need to go into that. It seems like you guys are at a super professional, high quality. You have made big investments in professional gear, which is fantastic. I encourage everyone to strive for that, to aim for that, but like we said earlier, use what you have right now. I don’t have anything close to what you guys have, but I’m still doing my podcast. I’m doing the best I can with what I have.Ryan: It still sounds great.Aaron: Thanks! It’s mostly just knowing how to set gain levels and not having a noisy room. It’s crazy how far the basics will get you— everything else is just icing on the cake.I’ve been watching this video course called Zen and the Art of Work, which I really recommend to everybody. It’s mindfulness training mixed with productivity training, which is such a great combination.In this course, he says, “So many of the masters continually revisit the basics.” Mastery is staying on a path. It’s not reaching some final goal, it’s more about being with the work and investing in getting better, but also revisiting the basics. He was talking about playing piano. He was like, “A lot of times, I just start by touching the keys, pressing the keys, and then doing basic scales over and over again.”It’s true. When you get so good at the basics that you don’t have to think about it, that’s when you start to expand and get to that level where people say, “Wow, you’re so good at that. How did you get so good?” You’re like, “That was just doing the basics. It’s not anything fancy.”It’s so important to master the basics and keep going back to them.Learning MoreAaron: What’s next for you? How do you invest in yourself and improve? Or are you working so much that you always have more learning opportunities? Do you buy books or courses or follow any websites to learn more about this audio stuff?Ryan: Honestly? We had a shift at work to where my role has shifted to mainly just broadcasts. That has enabled me to have a little bit more flexibility and free time, so I’ve been doing a lot more freelance work. That’s great, because it energizes me and keeps me engaged. It keeps me from routine. Routine is great.I love routine, that’s very much my personality, but freelance work keeps things interesting.For me, it’s all about where and how I can get inspired and constantly feeding that. It’s about feeding my desire for creativity. We’re all creatives. We like to create. We were designed to be creators, really. Everything I try to do is about how I can become a better creator and what I can create next. It’s about finding things that inspire me, really. We touched lightly on a few of the resources that I like, things I’ve learned and places I’ve picked things up.If you’re interested in audio for post production, there are a couple of great books by Ric Viers. I have two books by him that are really great. The first one is The Sound Effects Bible, and it’s not just sound effects in there. He talks about everything from gear to microphones, basics, setting proper gains, compression, some mixing techniques, etc. He also has The Location Sound Bible.There are a lot of similarities, but there’s also a lot of talk about gear, shotgun mics, lop mics, recorders, and then he also dives into some of the basics when it comes to mixing, proper gain staging, and so on. Those are a really great pool of knowledge in book form. There are a lot of other books out there, but I have found those two to be really helpful.Other than that, when it comes to audio for video, it’s a very small, niche field. There isn’t a crazy amount of stuff out there, like there might be for mixing music. For that, you’ve got tons. You’ve got Pensado’s Place, all these people on YouTube putting out channels on mixing, mixing from home, mixing on a budget, etc. There’s plenty of that.Aaron: Graham Cochrane and Joe Gilder are pretty awesome resources for anyone who wants to start a home studio.Ryan: YouTube can be a pool of knowledge for anything and everything, too. You have to dig a little bit and do some searching. On the inspiration side, for me, since I love audio for video, Sound Works Collection is a great place. They’ll do mini videos interviewing the sound people that did sound for X movie. Whether it was the last Harry Potter or anything and everything, big budget films, they’ll sit down with the recording people, the sound designers, the mixers…It’s really cool, because they’ll show footage of them doing stuff on location or the foley artists. It’s cool to see their process. For me, that helps me stay inspired. It gives me ideas to do other things. They have a podcast as well, and that’s great. The videos can be kind of short, maybe 10 minutes or so, but the podcast will go on at length, talking to the audio guys who have made sound for videos possible.It will also be music composers for movies as well. That’s really great. I found that great not only as inspiration, but to know what and how audio professionals for big budget films get inside their minds, how they’re thinking, and what their process looks like.It’s neat to see stuff about sound engineers for big movies and realize that we’re not so different.Dealing With a Broad Loudness Spectrum (Dynamics)Aaron: I have a nerdy question here. This is about normalizing and compression, I think. Aiya had asked, “I’m so torn about normalizing sound clips. If I’m working on a longer project in segments, would it be better to adjust my peaks manually for the sake of consistency? It’s for a video project.” I’m hearing that there are differences in video volumes. How do you deal with that? Do you do compression? Do you do automation for the different parts? How do you deal with dynamics?Ryan: It depends on the project. I’ll talk about how I would mix a sermon, because that’s very dynamic. Our pastor will go from whispering, holding his handheld mic close to his stomach, to screaming, holding the microphone, cupping the capsule. Power and respect to him, because it creates a certain atmosphere, which has a powerful effect. That’s what I’m dealing with on a weekly basis.That dynamic range is tremendous. Keep in mind, this is going to TV eventually. TV has very strict restrictions. It’s not so much on level, but on perceived level. There’s a difference between what you see meter and what you’re hearing. I can talk at length about that, too.Aaron: Could you give us a super short version? I’m kind of aware of that, but since I just mix in Logic, I’m not sure how to measure it. Is there a way to measure it in Logic? Do you know? Is there a plugin you use?Ryan: I use a plugin from Waves. It’s a loudness meter, and its just that. It has a lot of presets, so I’ll use the TV standard preset. I’ll use it for ATSE85, and I’ll use it for a dialogue bus. They’ve also got one for a master bus. The standard right there is your average level around -24 dB LUFS, so that’s full scale. If you have a classic meters, your peak would be zero, so that would average metering right around -10. At least for TV, I’ve got a hard limiter at -10 dB, to where nothing can go above that.The difference between levels on a meter vs. perceived loudness is the differences between what we hear and the actual energy.In our TV program, we’ll have the sermon, but we’ll also have a talking heads segments, which is dialogue and a music bed. We’ll also go into segments where they’ll go into worship from our live album, which had been mixed and mastered as an album. That thing is slammed. If you look at the wave form, it’s a sausage. If I’m setting all that by the meters alone and they’re all hitting -10, it may look right, but if I look at my loudness meter, that worship segment is going to be off the charts.There’s so much more content in there. There’s so much going on with all the different frequency ranges as opposed to a dialogue track, which is a narrow field in the frequency spectrum. That’s the gist of it. When it comes to my technique for controlling dynamics, for something like mixing a sermon, if I’m going down my plugin chain, the first thing I naturally have is a high pass filter. I’m rolling off those unnecessary lows that are hogging energy.The next thing I’ll do is use a compressor, and I’ll set the attack to right in the middle, so not fast or slow, and I’ll have the release time at fast. We don’t want to hear it pumping, letting go. That’s catching my peaks. It’s not doing a crazy amount, but it kind of is. That’s helping do a lot of the bulk compression. Before anything really hits the compressor, I will go through, and as I work my way through the mix, I will clip gain the wave form, so that, say, if he’s whispering somewhere, I might keep that, depending on how I have my compressor set.Then, if we go up to a part where he’s screaming and my wave form is huge, I will take that down and create those nodes, those dots in the wave form, and drag the actual clip volume down, that gain down. That way, it’s not going into the compressor at this high gain level. It’s hitting the compressor evenly as the rest of it would. That way, it’s not driving the compressor crazy. Then I’ll go through and do some EQ and DSing and whatnot. I might add some more compressors in there, just to grab some of those little things coming through. After that, it’s subtle, just smoothing it out.Aaron: It is a little bit of both. If she has access to an audio editing program—I don’t know what she’s using for editing. If you can put a compressor on the track, do that. It’s not exactly the same, but I did a YouTube video about how I process podcast vocals, and it’s very similar. For podcast vocals, I start with a Logic noise removal plugin.Ryan: I actually have my noise suppressor, and I’ll use that later on down in my signal chain. My way of thinking is that if I’ve got all this compression going on, the compression is narrowing that dynamic range, so it’s bringing up that noise floor. I tend to do my noise suppression after the bulk of that compression, because the noise floor is higher and it’s easier to work on a supressor. If that makes sense.Aaron: I’ve thought a lot about whether you should do the noise removal before or after you add a bunch of gain with a compressor or something, and I can’t think of a good reason that it matters. You can take out the noise before you add a bunch of gain, or you can add a bunch of gain and take out the noise afterwards. Which is better? I don’t know. Anyways, after the noise removal plugin, I put an EQ with a high pass filter, a peak compressor, an RMS or an average level compressor, and then a limiter.Ryan: Like I mentioned earlier, before I had my long-winded answer, it also depends on what it is you’re mixing—whether it’s music, or a podcast, or something for film.When it comes to dialogue for film, you want it to sound as natural as possible, but you also want to be able to hear if someone is whispering.When it comes to that, I’ll still use a compressor, but it will be very, very light. If there’s anything I need to do to meet loudness, that I will automate the volume on my dialogue bus. I’ll bring that up. That way, it sounds a little bit more natural, instead of solely relying on a compressor to do all the work for you.Aaron: That makes sense. For podcasts, if I notice that there’s a section where someone was talking much quieter, like if a guest backed away and talked like that for four or five minutes and then went back to the normal distance from the microphone, in Logic, I’ll turn that into its own clip. I make a cut on either side of the quiet part, and then, in Logic, you can double click on it and change gain by hitting Control G. Then you can add 3, 4, or 5 dB to it.That works out pretty well. If it’s every five seconds or I have to do it more than five or six times in an episode, I won’t do the clip gain changes, I’ll just use a compressor.Look at the overall audio file and see if there are long stretches where you can use automation to change the gain, or change the clip gain.Common Audio Mistakes Podcasters MakeRyan: You asked a question that I think would be good to talk about in regards to podcasting. You had asked, “What do you like about podcasts? What common mistakes do you hear people make?” Initially, I read this and thought, “I don’t know,” but I spent some time thinking about it. This is great, because it piggybacks off the loudness thing.A lot of the mistakes that I hear when it comes to podcasts in regards to audio is the levels and loudness aspect. I’ll listen to some podcasts that sound great, and I’ll put on another podcast where the whole thing is super quiet. Then they start laughing, and it’s really loud. There are some, like mine, where they have a music bed underneath the entire thing, and then sometimes the music bed is so quiet that you hardly know it’s there.You’re like, “What the heck is that noise in the background?” Sometimes, it’s the opposite. Sometimes, the music bed is way too loud. That’s a few of the things I’ve noticed. A lot of the fixes relate to what we just talked about. It helps to have knowledge of levels and perceived loudness.If you’re mixing a podcast, make sure your levels are consistent.One of the biggest things I can recommend for anyone mixing anything, whether it’s music, movies, a podcast, is the importance of having a reference track.Aaron: Yeah, I don’t talk about that enough.Ryan: That is huge. Professional audio engineers who mix platinum records still do this. They will pull in a track from a different song that is mixed well and is mixed how they want theirs to sound, and they’ll have it muted in their session. When they want to have a reference to listen to or train their ear, they’ll un-mute it, and they’ll go, “Oh, okay.”I’m sure you’ve done the same thing as me, where you’ll be so involved in a mix, you’re in it, and you think it sounds great, and then maybe you go away. You go home, sleep, and maybe you come back, and you open it up and you go, “Woah! What was I thinking!” You can get so involved in it that the blinders go up. You get tunnel vision, and you’re not aware to some things.It’s good to have a reference track or get an outsider’s opinion on a mix.The main takeaway here is the reference track. That would help with anything, whether it’s the timbre, how you’re EQing, or the loudness. You pull in their track and it’s far louder than yours, and you automatically know that you need to do something about it.Aaron: That’s a great idea. You can kind of do this before or after. You go through and you edit your whole podcast, get everything set up the way you want, create an extra track, and then find a podcast that sounds really good—This American Life or pretty much anything by NPR—download an episode, drop it into your editing program, and play it, mute it, and see what the difference is. Maybe you need to add some gain with an adaptive limiter or with a compressor, or maybe you can tell that your track sounds way sharper or harsher.Are there are too many high frequencies or too much bass compared to your reference track? You can adjust those things. I’m so glad you mentioned that. I’ve never thought of that before, and that’s such a good idea.Ryan: It’s one of those things you don’t think of much, but once you do it, you’re like, “Oh my gosh!” It’s really eye opening and really helpful.You can find Ryan online at ryanmonette.com, and follow him on Twitter @RyanMonette.

感谢热心听友“小睡猫JoJo”帮忙听写本篇文稿!Ryan: A deceased stuffed giraffe has been drawing people’s attention at a Zoo in Wuxi, East China’s Jiangsu province, during the past “Golden Week” holiday. The zoo’s goal was to notify visitors of the dangers of feeding their animals. Is this clever or creepy? Guys, what do you think? What’s going on?Bob: I want to tell you the story of the giraffe. It was a lovely lovely living giraffe a few years ago, about five years ago, and his name was Collin. I don’t know if you know it’s real name was Collin, but I am goanna call it giraffe Collin.(Niu Honglin: you named the giraffe) Collin wasn’t very well(Ryan: were you attached) I really like Collin, I really did. Maybe because it was really handy to have a giraffe, because you can reach high things. (Ryan: oh, yeah, make sense)yeah, Well, anyway, one day Collin was just minding his own businessatthe zoo and then somebody, a visitor, I should say, came along and throw a plastic bag into the enclosure and Collin ate the plastic bag and poor Collin died, gone, giraffe, X…. Ryan: Is that the end of Collin’s story?Bob: No, Strangely enough, Because they decided that, I don’t know when they decided, they just decided, I know, we can still use Collin, we can just stuff him and put it at the zoo as a warning to visitors to say don’t do this, just don’t throw plastic bags, or don’t feed animals with wrong things and whatever, because otherwise you end up stuffed. You know which is what happened to Collin. Obviously, I am not saying people are gonna end up stuffed.Ryan: That was magical story. (Bob: Thank you.)I real feel for Collin Bob: I hope I made it live.Niu Honglin: And on top of that, they even put Collin into this parade, saying, and just put it all around, and travelling him, I don’t know if is him or her within the zoo laps and laps, saying, see, this is what you do, you want all our animals to end up like this, if you don’t, stop feeding them.Bob: But the problem is they keep on feeding them. This is not the end of it. There was a turkey called Frank, ok (Ryan: Oh, that’s a great name for turkey). Well, anyway, so he died because it was overfed by visitors. There were two ostriches, I don’t know their name, Linda, I don’t know, birdy, whatever, because of eating plastic bags given by visitors. There were three deer who died respectively because of (Niu Honglin: oh my god) I don’t know, help me out with theese names, for goodness sake. Anyway, so basically (Ryan: Jerry, Jim, Jonson), oh, fine, whatever, so anyway, there are all these animals, all over the place, being given things by visitors. What is the problem here? Ryan: You know, obviously, this is nothing new. Animals are dying right and left basically; because people are feeding them. And I can understand why, you know, in my mind; here is what I am thinking. And, I am thinking, Sometimes my dog would come to the table. And my dog would always eat before the family did, soo that it will beg less. That was the strategy,never happened, Ok, so the dog had eaten its dinner. Now we’rere at the table having our dinner as a family. But the dog would always come up, and you know, flash those puppy dog eyes. (Bob: This is where you got it from, you do the same) you know when those puppy dog eyes are flashed at you, you just, you’re like“oh god, I know, you just ate, this is bad, but it feels so right”.Niu Honglin: See, You’ve paint a pretty picture, a lovely home, a lovely dog, family dinner, but I have to say, this is very serious. A survey conducted in Guangdong province suggested that 97, 97 percent participants believe animals can eat what human eat, that is not the fact, animals cannot eat whatever human eat; and 76 percent participants confess feeding animals is for entertainment, so they are just doing it because they think it’s fun; and 18 percent participants think animals cannot get enough food. This is not all right.Ryan: I want to go with that, that animals don’t get enough food, because these people, I do feel, when it comes to animals, they don’t know the stuff. Obviously your statistics pointed to that. ( Niu Honglin: Yes.) So the zoos not doing a good job, at least giving them that information, because this animals come up…Bob: No, I don’t think you can blame the zoos for this, because, I don’t know, but when I was a school kid. (Ryan: tell that to Jerry, Jamey and Jonson. Ok?) They are not around anymore. But, you know, When I was going up at school, I was pretty certain that we had lessons, where they say, look, this is a lion, don’t put your hand in the lion’s mouth, don’t, you know, try to feed itfish & chips or something like this, just don’t do it. And then maybe we were taken to the zoo by family or school, and again, we were shown, just don’t do it. So I think people need to know what wild animals are and what to eat before they even get to the zoo.Ryan: All right, fair enough, we can agree to disagree on this one. But, I will say that, in the US not too long ago, there was a famous gorilla that was shot and killed because a child fell into its enclosure, and the child was, they shot the gorilla to save the child. Well, basically it is the negligence of the mother that the child ended up in there. And I think it was the zoo’s fault, but I think people would be really outraged, in the US, if they paraded Harambe which was with the name of the gorilla, around, and saying, “Hey, guys, you know, this is the zoo, look at Harambe, he paid the ultimate price basically because you didn’t know, not to stick your hand into the lion’s mouth, or not to have your kid wonder around this enclosure.Niu Honglin: Yeah, I agree. So for this story, I do believe that feeding animals are not correct, are not right, you should not do this, but I don’t like the idea of having this poorly tragically died giraffe, make it stuffed giraffe, and just parade it everywhere. (Bob: …We are supposed be talking about Collin, aren’t we) yeah, Collin is just the sad animal; this is a creepy creepy story. I wish Collin rest in peace. And also I do believe that the zoo is not there to blame, but, the zoo can actually do more, instead of putting Collin all around everywhere, maybe they can put signs each and every cages, saying we do not want you to feed them, your food is not proper for them, it could kill them. And also the massive media like what we are doing right now, is to our dear listeners stop feeding animals when you are in a zoo, it’s not good for them. Bob: And I think the message, which, if you put Collin right there at the gate. The message is, hey, (Ryan: living Collin or dead Collin?)dead Collin at the gate, I mean the problem with this, is that, basically saying, Look, it doesn’t really matter, because actually Collin is still with us, he is still help us, he is still working here at the zoo, he is fine, you know, he can still entertain us all. I just think it sort of sends out the wrong message when you take this poor little animal and stick him right at the gate.

He Yang:A recent study conducted by the University of Massachusetts in Boston found that climbing up the earnings ladder might be harder than you think. Their results indicated that your first job’s income will determine your level of earnings in the future. So if you start off making little money, chances are you’re stuck there. Well, this is a study that looks at the American’s story, but let’s go through it and see if it makes sense?Yu Yang:Well, according to a new study, individuals employed from the 1980s to 2000s are having a difficult time moving up the income ladder in the United States. And according to Michael D. Carr , who did the study, “It is increasingly the case that no matter what your educational background is, where you start has become increasingly important for where you end. The general amount of movement around the distribution has decreased by a statistically significant amount.” Ok, that’s pertinent simple language. The theme of the whole study is if you are poor at 20, you might be poor for your whole life. I hope it’s not true.Ryan:Oh, I disagree whole-heartedly with this actually, upon really looking and getting into this research. At least for my point of view, I see this as, you know, this doesn’t even apply to me, because into my twenties, into my mid-twenties, I was pursuing higher education. So I wasn’t really thinking about a job. At the same time, the reason why I think this is happening is because higher education is becoming more and more common. So you need something else to make you stand out. Those middle-class jobs now are harder to get, so if you just had your first job with working at a grocery store, that’s not experience, I’m sorry. If you want that, what we call in the US , a big kidjob, then you need to have experience relevant to that field as well as the higher education. And I think this is becoming something now that people, this is becoming that common knowledge now that people are starting to get.He Yang:And also I have a question regarding to the study that is if it looking at the individuals employed from the 1980s to 2000s, and its what year now- 2016, what’s the end job for these people, we haven’t even reached that time slot yet , so I don’t really get that this can determine the end, because we don’t see the end yet.Ryan:Yeah, imagine the 1980s to the 2000s, so much has changed in between that time. Take a look at the phone from the 90s to your phone currently now, it’s so different. How we operate, how business is operating, the emergence of apps, the world is changingfolks. So this kind of large datasampling, I also think, could lead to some problems.He Yang:And what about the Chinese story here?Yu Yang:Er, the Chinese, it reminds me a Chinese proverb like 三十而立，四十不惑. We Chinese usually say that when you are thirty, you must have established your career, your family and when you are forty, you are no longer perplexed to buy any confusion. But I think it applied to the older generation, because nowadays as Ryan said, the higher education is becoming more and more common. In your thirties, you might be pursuing a PHD degree, so it’s normal that you cannot super rich at twenty, because you are still a student and limited financial resources.He Yang:That’s true, but also I see that in today’s Chinese society, social mobility has become an increasing stagnant for today’s Chinese young people. And that is a huge social issue actually. Because I think this is not a study, maybe I think we cannot agree whole-heartedly, but I think itpoints are attention to the stagnation and that is a problem.Yu Yang:Yes, let me pick one sentence by a netizen, I think it’s very interesting, “Poor at the age of 20 is normal. If you’re poor at the age of 30, you’re not working hard enough and if you’re still poor at age 40, then it’s hopeless.”Ryan:Totally agree, twenty to thirty isestablishing yourself. Don’t stress it, enjoy your life, try to establish yourself, get those skills, get that experience, come thirty, that’s when the alarm needs to go off.He Yang:Woo, the alarm needs to go off. AndJamie, our Wechat listener says I totally disagree with this. Asmy first job, I was only paid 800 Yuan, but now my current annual income is 500,000.Yu Yang:Wow, very inspirationalHe Yang:Yes, that’s from first-hand experience of our listeners.

Ryan:No one better actually can describe those differences than you He Yang. Do tell me in your mind the difference between lingerie and underwear.He Yang：Oh! Actually it’s quite simple. A lingerie is definitely a piece of underwear but it is (fancier) usually come with (hefty’er ) price tag and underwear is just an undergarment. It’s more ( generic) term. Often it is a lot more economical and we were talking about today is that apparently high-end lingerie sales are outpacing China's generally downbeat luxury market, and there is a heating up competition between international centers and local rivals that are looking to go to this up market area. Yeah, for ladies it’s a bit of a paradox. On the one hand, we are spending more; On the other hand, we are complaining that the purchasing experience and the whole thing all together kinda sucks.Ryan:Oh, right! You know the reason why I ask you to define the two is because according to Mintel Group, US brand Victoria's Secret has opened more stores, and companies including Italy's ultra-luxury La Perla and Germany's Triumph are adding stores too to the 18 billion dollars industry lingerie markets specifically here in China. That’s doubled in five years. So people are really buying underwear apparently. The thing is I don’t think they are just buying underwear but they are buying lingerie and the difference is that seduction aspect of it. It’s underwear to be sexy, right?He Yang：Oh, yeah! That’s a pretty good way that you find I guess. Yes, there is one notion from the guy that think, you know, it’s sort of dressing up to please your lover. But I think there is more to it. I think when you dressing in nice lingerie or just nice underwear, fancy stuff the girl’s like, you know with thelaces and things. It makes you feel confident. It makes you feel sensual and it doesn’t have to always have to do with some guy.Ryan:But what part, I mean, like let’s look at the average amount of money. Do you think like women are going to Victoria’s Secrets to just buy everyday use underwear. Probably not. There is lot of wear there happens probably on that underwear. When they go, they probably and I know in the US, many guys do go with their girlfriends. Because they want their boyfriends’ opinion and I see no problem in that. It’s because the two people that are gonna be looking at them, you know, whatever about them. Those two people want to have a ( say in it) . I think there is nothing wrong with that.He Yang：I don’t think there is anything wrong with that, either. But Niu Honglin, what you think? Niu Honglin:Well, I’m trying to not jump in, but it’s like this is not the kind of conversation people usually have about.He Yang：Really? Let’s be friends. Let’s talk about her deepest desires.Niu Honglin:I can only assume that those couples that do not want purchase their lingerie together. It is possible that the girl trying to surprise her boyfriend. It is possible that she’s just buying it for her, like you said, it makes her happy. Maybe you like it, maybe you don’t like it. I don’t care. I think I look good in it, it’slike everyday clothes. It’s the same thing. Don’t make such a distinguish, just because it’s underwear. And maybe it is possible that the guy is shy. He doesn’t want to step into such store. There are so many possibilities.He Yang：En, interesting.Ryan:I will say that in the research we have done, guys, you know La Perla, never heard of this lingerie store. But apparently it’s a big one.He Yang：Oh, it’s really nice, really fancy.Ryan:I am not a big fan of Vitoria’s Secret and I think they are cool. Anyway, around 2000 yuan is how much one of their bras which price at. That’s apparently normal. So 300 hundred dollars, ladies, I feel for yeah. You know what, if you shopping at these stores for your guys. You need to be pulling money out of their pockets too. This is just as much as involving them. And you know, making, it’s good for your sex life in general. So make them have a say. Make them at least fork over some of these cash, cause 300 dollars dangh.He Yang：Yeah, that’s a lot of money. Ok, I like the last part of the argument. I should totally be involved in paying for that. But there’s also this other side that as a woman, I’m gonna share with the world today. That is girls. It is so important to get the right piece of underwear or lingerie. Because, ok, here is a problem actually. Cause a lot of Chinese girls, you don’t know what fits you well, you don’t know, you might not even know what your correct size is. I know a lot of our listeners are young and you should definitely go into one of the brick and morterstores that sell lingerie or underwear and have a professional (help you ), although that professional could be a Dama sometimes, so middle-aged lady. She can be very overly friendly sometimes, in truth, maybe, but you need her help. So figure out your right size and it will help you in life and you feel so confident and your posture is improved, so go for it ladies.

Heyang: Every company has its own regulations, even some weird ones. A market executive of a recent job fair in Chongqing has pointed out that nearly 30% of job hoppers quit their former job because they can no longer bear weird company regulations. Guys, are these company rules that weird? Niu Honglin: Well, you gotta say cuz among the five hundred job hunters that intended to change their jobs in Chongqing, 29 percent said they quitted the job because of it. And what are these regulations? Let's make some examples. First, there is a regulation saying that his company would fine employees 20 yuan for every minute they are late. And if you are 5 minutes late, then you will be fined for 100 Yuan.Ryan: I want to jump in on this one. I just want to jump in real quick. I think this one is ethically okay because it is like "This is your job, you should show up when the job starts". But, sometimes, things happen. Like, not every kind of form of transportations is reliable. Maybe there is an accident. So, I think there should be some kind of understanding. It shouldn't be some ultimatum. You should be at least able to make a case. Niu Honglin: And when you are working extra hours everyday, or you are paying a little more. And also there is another one saying that the company would hold a 30-minute-long morning meeting every day, and every employee must shout out "Come on, come on, come on" for ten minutes, loudly.Ryan: I have something to say actually. So San Francesco is a big startups city, and there's actually quite a bit to be said about this. Some of the more successful startups, I know from a personal friend, they do this in the morning to like, get people to like, just let out the stress, and like, get together, and yea, you are being a little crazy, but at the same time, you will be surprised how yelling makes you feel more at peace.Heyang: That is interesting. But, when that is forced upon as a company rule, you have to do, then maybe it is not great for people. Not great for everyone.Niu Honglin: Yea, and if you are doing some exercises to let out your stress, then it is fine. But "Come on, come on" for ten minutes? Really?Heyang: And what about wearing fake eyelashes?Ryan: Oh, that one so good! Heyang: Why is it so good, Ryan?Ryan: Because, okay, so twenty-eight years old Ms. Wan is in charge of operation management in an internet company. Let me break this down real quick for you guys, basically, the office says no office romance and you must have business casual, or business wear. But the weird thing is, if women, women can refuse to put on make-up, but they cannot refuse to put on false eyelashes. They get charged for 20 yuan each for not having it.Heyang: So basically, it is just forcing you to put on make-up because if you don't put on the whole set, and only have those fake eyelashes, you will look like a weirdo, so, isn't it kind of like the company is telling you "You must do that"? But I don't write it on paper! I just say in this way that you have to be coerced to it.Niu Honglin: And for me who really not good at putting her make-up, I am pretty sure if I have to put on fake eyelashes everyday, I will be late and will be charged 20 Yuan every minute. Ryan: Not just that but, guys, this is sexist in a way. You know, what does the guys have to do? This is like something seriously just targeted for women. So, I don't think that is fair at all. I think women should feel free to be as beautiful as they want in the workplace honestly. And guys should just be able to control themselves. So, women shouldn't have to feel like they have to dress down or do certain things, like make-up wise because men in the office might be attracted to them. Guys, you are grown men, like you are going to control yourselves and respect women.Heyang: Yea that is very well said, Ryan. And do you think these company regulations are just plain weird? Do you think it is not humane? Do you think that it is sort of asking too much from the employees? Or do you think the company has the right to do this, it is totally legit, is it good for the operation? Niu Honglin: Well, let say the bosses are not complete idiots, there are must be a story behind every regulation that we see as ridiculous or weird, but I do feel like they are doing the team building thing to ask the employees to do certain stuff. As if they don’t know how to actually to do their jobs, they have to be taught certain things, and that is not what we would do in adult society. Ryan: I won't assume that these guys that own these companies are not Chauvinists and they are not idiots honestly. But, I would assume that some of these come from an area of good, saying like, we want people to yell and get out all their stress before work, we want them to grow together as a good team building, and we don't want them to be late. I can understand those things.Heyang: Yea, so it is actually a fine line. And considering how difficult it is to protect your own workers' rights. In a lot of Chinese companies, I think it is usually the worker, the employee that is at a really vulnerable state. And it seems the only way to protect is to leave your job, according to this story.

【特别感谢热心听友“​Maggie 欣欣”帮忙听写本篇文稿】Heyang: We’ve all done it: when a conversation gets boring, we pull out our smartphone and start playing with it. This is been called phubbing. But apparently, Chinese teenagers are taking it to the next level: as a new survey found that 60% of teenage pedestrians are on their smartphone as they are walking in the streets. It is okay?Guys, what’s going on here?Ryan: Oh goodness. Let me tell you all about it, okay? A survey released by non-profit organization Safe Kids Worldwide with the support from FEDEX, So it bit sounded like Fedex but I didn’t want say that because there’s a delivering company called Fedex, found teenagers are often distracted by the use of electronic devices while walking, which can cause traffic accidents. So it’s been revealed that 93.1% of students surveyed in a survey possess smart phones. 60.9% of those surveyed said they got distracted by the use of electronic devices while walking. And nearly half (45%) of the respondents admitted that they themselves or their friends and family have nearly experienced pedestrian clashes while using smartphones, tablets or gaming devices. So here are, you know, overwhelming amount of these people that were surveyed, the students have phones, and more than half of them are getting distracted while walking using these devices at the same time. Another question I would like to ask is like those who do drugs these students or even, you know, younger adults that do drugs was the number of people that use like phones when they are doing that on a scooter or in a car, also a good thing to look into I think.Heyang: Oh that’s very interesting.Niu honglin: And actually I don’t think it’s limited to teenagers I think adults also do that too. They also walk and drive and do everything with their cellphone and actually in some metro places and malls they have this warning, like saying you should not use your phone when you’re on the elevator or when you’re walking. They have this because more and more people are doing that. That’s why they’re warning people not to.Ryan: Yeah. Okay so let’s talk a little bit more about the survey coz I’m sure some questions are being asked about that. So basically they surveyed 1000 middle school students on their pedestrian habits. The students came from 10 schools in Beijing. Apart from that, the kid’s safety advocacy is measuring the risk of these students walking through school zones. And you know, a lot of these distractions, you probably say, ’what are they doing’ Well of course maybe they’re using like, messaging friends, they might also be listening to music and making phone calls.Heyang: Yeah and it’s really interesting that you guys keep on saying,’ all these kids are being distracted or adults are being distracted when guys, I don’t agree with you at all. That sounds like you’re shifting the responsibility of walking safely yourself to digital device? No way! It’s you putting this on yourself. Nobody is distracting you. It’s because you don’t have the ability to say no to stuff when you should have. That is my opinion and these guys are kind of shaking their heads in front of me so they don’t necessarily agree with me. But they get a chance for their rebuttal right after the short break. The part that I feel very passionate about is I don’t think you’ve got anybody to blame or to take this as a distraction. It is just you putting your safety second (Ryan: Yeah) and putting your digital device first. What is wrong with you?Ryan: Oh yeah~ I got some information for you, Heyang.(Heyang: Yeah~) Okay, so, pedestrian injuries among 15-17 year olds account for 37.24% of all pedestrian injuries among children 17 and under. So I mean, I would say that these are kids; these are tiny kids and so much of them are this group basically 15-17 year-olds. They are not adults so I don’t believe we should hold them to the standard of adults. They are still very much kids and I think there’s needs to be some parent guidance here and that is you know, like when I was a kid I would run across the street like a mad man I could even think I would dodge traffic like I was invincible, you know. Even probably well on to 15 if my mom hadn’t said, you know, lay down the ground working. She said Ryan look both ways before you cross this street. Always wait till you have a clear, you know, no problem zone to cross. You know these kind of things, but basically we’re seeing a lot of these injuries are happening with kids.Niu honglin: I agree with you when you were saying they need some guidance and they need someone to tell them they’re not doing it right. But you have to know their reasons when they say they do not want to put their cellphones down it’s because maybe they’re listening to a song that hasn’t come to an end and they say they wanted to keep company with their friends in the internet and they don’t want to make the other party unhappy and the third reason which I find a little ridiculous is that they do not…they simply do not want to stop playing.Ryan: Right you said you find this ridiculous. Well I can’t speak for China; I don’t know the specific rules but you’re not considering an adult in the U.S. until you’re of 18 years of age. So these are kids. And of course they are ridiculous. Kids do ridiculous stuff. They don’t know any better and what I’m saying here to both of you but especially Heyang I’m pointing my finger at you, girl (Heyang: What’s up?) I’m saying that you can’t hold them to the standard of adults. I think if this was a different survey and we found that these were actually people who were considered adults. I would agree with you. But these kids need guidance and basically tablets are more available now than ever and kids are getting them. So parents need to join the current situation we’re living in right now and be able to tell their kids, ’Hey, while you’re walking, put that phone away.Heyang: Yeah, I think it’s interesting you make that distinction, Ryan. But I just don’t think a teenager of 17 years old or an adult of 18 years old are that different. I just feel that for these…Okay when it comes to legality I have to agree with you, Ryan. But when it comes to using your smartphone and ditch it when you should so you can stay alive and don’t walk into a tree or get hit by a car or walk into a manhole and fall into whatever stuff and you could lose your life then I don’t think that it is an excuse to say that I just want to stay connected. That’s just not good enough.Niu honglin: Well, I would like to take a little step back and say that maybe it’s because when they’re still kids when they started to…( Heyang: Teenagers! We are talking about teenagers now!)Yeah, I’m trying to say when they’re still kids and they don’t know how to see the world. They don’t know how to think about things. Maybe their parents didn’t tell them about the devices because they don’t have it back then. And now they have this and maybe they don’t have a right way of thinking things and seeing things now.

​【特别感谢热心听友“Mobey 曹英哲”帮忙听写本篇文稿】Heyang: Some believe that one’s personality can alter the course of one’s destiny. But do you believe that your personality can affect how many birthdays you celebrate?Of course, it’s important to remember that there are many factors, from genetics to lifestyle, work together to determine life expectancy — but researchers have found that there are six personality traits, in particular, some are more common in those who lead longer lives. Guys, what does the study say, do you believe in this six indicators that could contribute to how long you live?Yu Yang: Well, this is a really interesting research, because the researchers used the data from a 75-year study of 600 people, who began taking part in the study between 1935 and 1938 when they were in their mid-20s and continued the whole participating process until 2013. When they joined the study in the 1930s, each participant picked three to eight close eight friends to rate their personality using a 36-question scale created by the psychologist E. Lowell Kelly in 1940. Using the questionnaire, the researchers end up with 4 key traits that emerged as key measures as longevity. And two for women and two for men. Of the men in the study, those who were seen by their friends as more ‘conscientious’, which means they were less likely to take risks and also tended to be more thorough and efficient, and open to new and different ideas, feelings, and concepts lived longer. Of the women, those who were seen as more emotionally stable and agreeable lived longer.Ryan: Yeah. I was looking at this, and I think it boils down to, for me, these are just really technical terms to say, don’t live a life that is stress-ridden. So a stress-free life, you live longer, and I think happiness, that ambition, that drive that tells your body life is good, let’s keep this run going for as long as possible. I think your body does directly respond to you, if you’re hating life, if you stressed everyday, it’s like the worst day of your life, your body’s probably, it’s that mentality’s taking a toll on it some way. Like let’s take the guys for instances. Conscientious, which is the best predictor of longevity when measured in childhood, is a personal indicator of long life measured in adulthood. To me, conscientious means like people who create healthy, long life pathways for themselves, and for me, at the same time, I think that is hand in hand with a stress-free life, also being open, not opposing change, everyday is a change, and so these people that were started this what the 1930s, a lot has changed, if they fight it continuously, they’re gonna get tired and worn out, and of course, probably won’t be living as long life. But if you open the change and you are conscious, you think about things like, oh I should set my alarm or worry about the little details in your life, those little details won’t come back to bite you in the rear end, and you will be less stressed, you can relax knowing that you covered all your basis and that’s what it means for me, maybe you guys can talk about the lady, the two lady words.HY: Yeah that could be possible, but also I just think conscientious is really interesting coz it’s sort of telling you that you take small risks maybe, but you avert most of the risks, is that what kind of means here? Ryan: Well, also, detail-oriented which to me means someone who doesn’t just like go through life, and like doesn’t pay attention to small things, looks through things in detail, and make sure it’s done maybe correctly, but also at the same time, you could say, like, thrifty and persistent, but those kind of people I believe they have less of that karma from doing half way jobs comes back to bite them in the butt they live more stress-free lives. HY: Oh interesting. Coz I used to think that would be... Because these people sound like prudes.Ryan: Oh... She said it. You guys heard it. She took off the gloves. But...HY: I mean I’m just throwing it out there…Ryan: Oh you threw it in my face. You can just throw it out there. Alright, you know I’m just gonna say this. I think someone who does take that detail into serious account will live a longer life in less stress. Now please, this is the man words. So let’s talk about the lady words.YY: Yeah. The emotionally stable thing…I think I agree with this point. It’s not a gender topic but maybe because women are more influenced by emotion than their counterparts. And according to the research, the emotional status can affect women’s hormone and endocrine. Endocrine means “内分泌” in Chinese. This one I totally agree. So, well, I think women are more susceptible to the endocrine imbalance(内分泌失调). Well if you suffer from that, that’s a problem. So I suggest to keep your emotions stable as much as you can, and agreeable and friendly and being nice, well, that’s kind of ideal situation, but life is hard sometimes. Or I think Heyang you have something dramatic to say about this trait.HY: I have nothing dramatic to say, I just have something pretty rational to say. That is I think emotionally stable should be what men and women try to pursue maybe. I don’t see why this is strictly a gender thing that is my question, coz when it comes to hormones, come on everybody, male are more susceptible to it or if not we’re at a similar levels, I think it’s sort of gender stereotype to say women are just more emotionally going through ups and downs and things. Ryan: Well, ok, I mean that’s a whole separate argument I feel, but there are inherent differences in men and women especially in brain chemistry, I believe that there is a good argument in that. But at the same time, I do agree with you that emotional stability is not a gender specific thing. And so everyone should strive to be emotionally stable, but what do you think about agreeable and friendly like?HY: Well, I think it’s sort of creating that happy atmosphere around you, coz I think automatically if that is around you, then it makes you happy, it would work for you and maybe spreading a little bit love on the way is not a bad idea, either. And also it seems like being an extrovert can help too, so I think it goes back to being open and those kind of things.Ryan: I was just gonna say for me it’s common sense, I totally agree with you.HY: Alright~YY: Really I think I’m an introverted person, I can handle stress pretty well. HY: Don’t forget that these factors in play together.

【特别感谢热心听友“Coco 鄢文琴”帮忙听写本篇文稿】He Yang: A global survey found its coffee and ketchup that holidaymakers consider their packing essentials, rather than flip flops and suntan lotion. It’s also showing that nearly 40 percent of Chinese mainland travellers pack instant noodles with them. Are you one of them? Guy’s, please tell me more about the survey and what’s up with bringing food from home when you are travelling?Ryan: Yeah, a survey of travellers from 29 countries and regions have revealed the top unexpected items each nationality takes abroad, ensuring that wherever they go they have a taste of home with them. The study are looked at, it was by a Spanish travel company, surveyed 7,500 people from around the world ensuring that a minimum of 250 locals had been interviewed for each country. Now, looking at these, I think, some of them are pretty silly. So, maybe if we have some French listeners you guys can clear this one up for me. But bringing cheese, 53 percent French people said they would bring either cheese or dairy products. Guys, don’t dairy products go bad like, how are you going to refrigerate that, that seems more a problem, more trouble than it is worth.Luo Yu: Cheese have gone through four fermentation processes already, so , it won’t decay. He Yang: It won’t to decay, but it will smell bad like baby diapers. And Chinese people tend to bring instant noodles, that doesn’t smell. But I don’t get it, if you are travelling, then aren’t you supposed to try the local food. That’s part of your travel experience. Why bring instant noodles?Ryan: Define travelling, what if I am going to my parents’ house on Spring festival and I want something to eat on the way, on the train. That makes sense!Luo Yu: And What if there was a long journey trip, like you take a train from Beijing to Urumqi. Right?He Yang: You guys are just ganging up to against me today, not giving me a chance. But as independent young women, I will stand firmly on my ground. That I’m saying travelling here means long distance as you are travelling to a different country probably go sightseeing. And why would you bring your home food?Ryan: No, no, specifically, I can’t answer that question, because I fill in the category of us Americans. In the study shows that Americans, we, tend to bring toilet paper and I’m all about that.Luo Yu: And condoms.Ryan: Oh, Godness, no, that’s totally false. He Yang: It’s fine if it’s true. You know, just do it safely.Ryan: Do it safely, that’s what we are saying. But as an American, it is, for us, is very hygienic oriented, which I totally agree with.Luo Yu: For us, it is very easy to understand, because, for one thing, we love to taste a little bit of food from home. And that’s why a lot of Xin Jiang people would carry loads of nans (nan bread) with them. You know, it’s very easy to preserve and not easy to get rotten or decayed. And people just love it, like people from Shanxi, Gansu or Ningxia. They have Guo kui. These like crusty and crunchy shells, but very tasty inside. So, it’s like people are a little bit nostalgic and they get used to the food already. So, that’s why we take with them.He Yang: Yeah, It just like South Koreans take kimchee with them. And whenever there having local food, maybe they want a little bit of something, that reminds them of home. But still, doesn’t that just defeat the purpose of travelling, you are going off a foreign country and I would still want to try the local staff.Ryan: I think it’s weird. Yeah, you should try the local staff but if it’s really bad, I won’t blame you for going to the MacDonald’s that’s probably that’s down the street, because it’s seems to be everywhere. But one thing I did say like I did like that 37 percent of Russians they bring playing cards, really smart. Playing cards are good.He Yang: Alright, I would like to finish today’s show with Han, our Wechat listener’s comments. He says: “I would definitely try instant noodles with local flavors, for example, kimchee noodles, if I visit South Korea or a bunch of other instant noodles with local flavor…Luo Yu: I love that advice.He Yang: It’s totally a genius.