Open Mike Podcast

In 2005, 18-year-old Kenneth Nixon and his girlfriend were arrested and charged with murder, arson, and four counts of attempted murder in conjunction with a tragic Detroit firebombing that killed two children. While Kenneth's girlfriend was acquitted by a jury, he was sentenced to two life sentences. A collaborative review by the Medill Justice Project, Cooley Law Innocence Project, and Wayne County Conviction Integrity Unit would ultimately determine Kenneth didn't receive a fair trial, citing inconsistent eyewitness testimony, opportunistic jailhouse informant testimony, and poor arson investigation. On February 18th, 2021, Nixon was released from prison, 16 years after his conviction. In this stunning installment of Open Mike, Kenneth reflects on the systemic biases that contributed to his wrongful conviction and provides updates about his post-release life — including inspiring advocacy work with the National Organization of Exonerees. Show Notes [00:01] Welcome to Open Mike! [00:17] Kenneth Nixon's background and bio. [01:43] Welcome to the show, Ken! You've been out of prison, almost eight months to the day! What was it like walking out of prison, getting your freedom back after sixteen years? [02:45] So much has changed over sixteen years… what milestones did you miss the most when you were incarcerated? [03:28] How many children did you have when you were convicted? Did you get to see them when you were in prison? [04:44] In 2005 there's a firebombing on Charleston Street in Detroit, Michigan. 20-month-old Tamyah Vaughn and her 10-year-old brother, Raylond were killed. Where were you when this happened? [05:36] Later on you found out the crime happened around midnight… where was this house in relation to you? Did you know this family? [06:27] Why do you think the thirteen-year-old brother of the victims told police he saw you commiting this crime? [08:22] This young boy's transcripts showed that he was inconsistent all along; he couldn't get his stories straight! [09:01] How did his statement come out at trial? Did your lawyer do a good job in demonstrating the inconsistent statements and impeach him? [09:45] Your girlfriend Latoya Caulford was also charged, so she was unable to testify on your behalf. What was her charge? [10:03] Did the boy say he saw her too? [11:30] Latoya was acquitted… is this your children's mother? Is she still part of yours and the kids' lives? [12:31] Let's talk about the prosecutor, Patrick Muscat — he's been a prosecutor on several of these wrongful conviction cases. He framed you to be a jilted lover who wanted revenge. When he said that, what was your reaction? [13:33] There was testimony at your trial that stated you had gasoline on your clothes. Can you explain why that was? [14:32] Police brought a dog in to identify fire accelerants at the scene of the crime. Muscat didn't tell the jury that the dog is trained to detect petroleum-based products — a dog doesn't know the difference between gasoline and perfume, or motor oil and glue, for example. Ken's possessions that had gasoline on them were taken for testing at the lab and didn't match any of the evidence at the scene of the crime. [15:23] Didn't a cop, Robert McGee, say that his dog linked your clothes to the crime, and his dog is never wrong? [15:41] Were you satisfied with how your attorney defended you? [16:31] We've done several wrongful conviction stories here on Open Mike, and one of the lynch pins that convicted many people were jail snitches, which are so problematic for so many reasons. And in your case, you had one who claimed you admitted to the firebombing. What do you know about this guy, and did he get a deal for testifying against you? [17:52] Outrageous! Did he ever come clean and say he lied? [18:56] Did the student's interview eventually lead to your exoneration? [19:51] Did you and your girlfriend get tried together? [20:44] When you heard the guilty verdict, what was going on in your head? [21:52] What did you tell the sentencing judge right before you were handed your sentence? [22:07] How did the Justice Project at Northwestern University get involved in your case? [25:24] How did the Brady violations come to light? Did the students identify them or did something else happen? [26:43] The Wayne County Conviction Integrity Unit and the Cooley Law Innocence Project got involved… I assume Northwestern University got them involved? [27:28] What information was presented to the judge, and what did he do? [28:09] One thing that's a little strange here, is that the victims' family were upset about your release. What do you think about that? [28:58] You're still a young man — what's in store for you ahead? [29:48] Ken is part of the National Organization of Exonerees which aims to bring awareness to the wrongful conviction crisis. [30:27] Ken is the 28th person exonerated by the Wayne County Conviction Integrity Unit. [31:43] Thank you to Kenneth Nixon for appearing on the show! There are so many similarities between all of these wrongful conviction cases, but thankfully the truth came out and Ken is reunited with his kids. Thank you for watching Open Mike — please subscribe, comment, like, and share the episode, we'd love to hear from you! We'll see you soon.

In June 1993, Navy veteran Derrick Sanders was arrested for the shooting death of a Milwaukee man he had assaulted seven months previously. Although he had no role in the man's death, inept legal counsel advised him to plead no contest to charges of first-degree intentional homicide, party to a crime, and he was sentenced to 21 years to life in prison. Over the next twenty-five years, Derrick would be entrenched in legal rigmarole after filing a motion to withdraw his plea. He argued that, due to his attorney's inadequate explanation of potential punishment, he did not intelligently enter the plea. In August 2018, a Milwaukee County circuit judge granted Derrick's motion to withdraw the plea. A few weeks later, the Assistant District Attorney dropped the charges and Derrick was a free man. In this riveting, all-new episode, Derrick and Mike discuss the complex, systemic deficiencies that enabled Derrick's wrongful conviction. Derrick also reflects on ways he would have advocated for himself more staunchly and drops some firsthand truth bombs about what we should know to protect ourselves from a false accusation. Show Notes [00:01] Welcome to Open Mike! [00:33] Background and bio of today's guest, Derrick Sanders. [01:29] Hello, Mr. Sanders! Welcome to the show. [02:07] You're a Navy veteran who was honorably discharged, you had a well-paying job. But you got involved in assaulting Jason Bowie — what was that about? [03:25] Your friend was Anthony Boddie, who got you involved in this, right? So, you were sticking up for him, beating up on the guy you thought stole the TV… when you left the scene, he was still alive? [5:00] You decided to start cleaning up at the abandoned house… you had cleaning supplies there? [05:32] So, you took off and what happened next? [06:48] At what point did you hear the gunshot, or did you never hear it? Who shot Jason Bowie? [07:33] Despite the fact that he was your friend, Anthony Boddie told police you were present for the shooting, which you weren't. Is that correct? [08:19] Didn't John Peavey, in one of his eight statements, also claim you were present during the shooting? [08:42] What did you tell police when they caught up with you in June 1993? [09:32] At the end of your written statement, you expressed sorrow that this occurred over a television set. Why did you write those words? [10:15] Both you and Boddie were charged with first-degree, intentional homicide and party to a crime. Did you know what party to a crime meant at that point? [11:01] Your attorney, was he court-appointed? What kind of job did he do for you? [12:39] Derrick's private attorney urged him to plead no contest, which is basically unheard of for a murder case. [13:19] The judge sentenced you to 21 years to life, with the possibility of parole in 2015. What went through your mind when you heard that? [13:56] A couple years after you were incarcerated, your mother received a signed affidavit from Anthony Boddie. What did that affidavit say? [16:49] Did your attorney lose his license after this? [17:51] You spent twenty-two years in prison after the affidavit was sent. Why didn't that letter get you out? [19:38] Who was your appellate attorney throughout this? Because they did a great job getting the conviction overturned and presenting you options. [20:41] It makes no sense — it seems like your second attorney was as bad as the first attorney! She had you plead guilty to the exact same charges after the appellate attorney got you all these options! [22:55] One of the reasons we do these shows is to educate people. At the end of the day, you weren't educated on criminal justice proceedings, and it's your lawyer's fault. But there is some responsibility on you… do you take that responsibility that you may not have done the right thing? [24:31] To everybody listening… if you're sitting in prison and you don't agree with your lawyer, and it feels like something is wrong, get a second opinion. [25:11] Let's fast forward… what happened in 2018 that got your case reviewed by the police again? [28:20] You got a new lawyer, and the judge was listening to your story… what happened next? [30:23] Did the letter you write to the judge make it in the file? Was your attorney combative on the stand, or was she helpful to your cause? [32:27] What did the judge do after this hearing? [34:45] The state compensated you a measly $25,000… what was that about? [37:06] I wish you the best on those lawsuits and claims and hope you get every dollar you're entitled to. You were treated wrongly by the state and had some incompetent attorneys, never received apologies, and were wronged. [39:21] It's been three years since you've been out… how are you doing these days? What are you up to? [41:05] I'm so sorry this happened to you, this is maddening and ranks up there as one of the most messed up stories I've heard. All I can do is apologize on behalf of your lawyers and for the failure of the system. Hopefully someone listening to this podcast will learn something and hopefully avoid the type of mistreatment you faced. Thank you for appearing on Open Mike and best of luck in the future. Take care. [43:11] If you know someone who needs to hear this podcast, send it. Forward it. Please like, and subscribe, and comment to let us know what you'd like to see on upcoming episodes. We look forward to seeing you in the coming weeks. Thanks for listening, thanks for watching.

In April 2010, Eric Anderson was arrested and charged for involvement in a robbery and beating of two men outside their Detroit home. At the time of the crime, Anderson was actually at a Coney Island, ten miles from the scene, where he was shot in the foot, necessitating immediate medical attention. Despite hospital records confirming his treatment, and Coney Island security footage substantiating his injury, Eric would spend nine years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, asserting his innocence the entire time. The Michigan Innocence Clinic re-investigated Anderson's claims of innocence and, following an interview with the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office's Conviction Integrity Unit, his sentence was vacated on April 30th, 2019. How did such a convoluted chain of events transpire when multiple pieces of evidence corroborated Eric's claims of innocence? Why was he allowed to languish in prison for so long when it was clear he couldn't have committed this robbery? Tune in to this mind-blowing, all-new installment of Open Mike to find out! Show Notes [00:01] Welcome to Open Mike! [00:20] Eric Anderson's background and bio. [02:10] Welcome to the show, Eric. The story is kind of crazy and convoluted but, not to do a spoiler alert, you're out of prison after spending nine years wrongfully incarcerated. Let's show how ridiculous this conviction was. [03:10] April 18th, 2010, about 3:30 in the morning. Tell us about your stop at Coney Island. What happened there that led to you being shot in the foot? [04:14] You walk into the Coney and almost immediately get shot in the foot. Then what happened? [06:02] You didn't want to go to Detroit Receiving Hospital, which was closer, you chose to go to Sinai Grace because that's the hospital you were familiar with? These facts become very relevant to your trial later. [07:05] Were you released that night, or did they keep you overnight? [07:38] At the same time of your shooting, two armed men with their shirts pulled up over their faces robbed 20-year-old Gregory Matthews Jr. and a friend, 19-year-old Stephon Tolin, on the street outside Matthews's home in Detroit, Michigan. Did you know these two people? [08:37] This happened a few miles from the Coney Island you were shot, is that true? [10:05] One of the witnesses said they heard a gunshot as the assailants were turning a corner, which was included in the police report. [10:30] Ten days later after you were shot, what happened? [11:23] Police pulled over Eric (and his friend who was driving) and told Eric he was under arrest; they believed he robbed Gregory and Stephon and shot himself in the foot. [11:44] Do you know how you became a suspect? [14:25] Two weeks after Eric's arrest, they transported him to Michigan State Police to take a polygraph test. [16:28] To this day, you've never seen your face on surveillance footage from that Coney Island. But your distinctive, Ed Hardy jeans, tight hair, and other identifying markers could tie you to the scene of your shooting. Is it clear that, when you walk in, that's you? Does the video show you getting shot in the foot? [18:30] When you got the polygraph, did you have an attorney yet? [18:56] For anyone watching… the second you are under arrest, stop talking and get an attorney, and let the attorney walk you through this process. [19:10] You took the polygraph… did they tell you right then and there that you failed it? What did they say to you? [19:43] In September 2010, Eric was offered a plea of probation. He declined because he didn't commit the crime. [20:40] Eric was confident that people upholding the system of justice would do the right thing, and he declined to hire an attorney to save money. [22:59] Two months later, Eric went to trial with a court-appointed attorney who improperly represented him, and didn't show the jury the surveillance footage, despite Eric's urging. He provided the jury video stills instead. [24:39] One of Eric's friends who was also implicated in the crime, yet not arrested, testified on Eric's behalf. [25:21] What was the prosecution's case? [26:44] The angle of Eric's bullet wound proved that he didn't shoot himself. His court-appointed attorney didn't recruit any expert medical witnesses to verify. [27:40] Who did the prosecution put on? These witnesses who said they saw you pistol whip and rob these guys? [29:47] Did your defense attorney cross-examine these witnesses? [30:45] The location of the robbery in respect to Sinai Grace seems to be what hurt you in trial. Where about did the robbery occur? How many miles is that from Sinai Grace? [32:11] How did they argue that you would have even known about that shooting while you were at Sinai Grace? How is that even possible? [33:17] Despite all of these defenses, you were convicted on November 5, 2010, of two counts of armed robbery, assault, and illegal use of a weapon. What did you think of that guilty verdict? [34:18] Did you ever think the truth would come out after that massive sentence? [34:32] Two years later, the Michigan Court of Appeals vacated your assault conviction, because it was multiple punishment for the same offense. But upheld the other charges and resentenced 12 to 20 years plus two years for weapons charges. That was basically a technicality issue. But you did something smart and, in 2018, got the Michigan Innocence Clinic involved. How did you do that? [36:40] The Michigan Innocence Clinic convinced the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office Conviction Integrity Unit, upon their own investigations, to vacate Eric's convictions. [37:46] Tell me about the person who admitted to the crime you were accused of committing. How did you find out who did it? [38:47] The actual perpetrator was serving prison time for a different time and offered to admit to the crime. But you didn't take him up on the offer. That's curious to me! [40:05] The perpetrator also sent Eric a signed affidavit saying he committed the robbery. [41:01] You're doing twelve years of prison time for a crime you didn't commit, and you have compassion for this guy to not add on to his sentence! It sounds like a smoking gun that could have gotten you out sooner. Did the Michigan Innocence Clinic use this information? [43:32] A breakdown of the hospital records demonstrated that Eric couldn't have committed the robbery. [44:12] How long after the Conviction Integrity Unit interview were you released? Can you tell me about that day? [47:53] Did anybody from the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office apologize to you?   [49:17] Eric and the National Registry of Exonerees are pushing for greater awareness of the wrongful conviction crisis that has been plaguing the American criminal justice system. [50:53] You've been out for two-and-a-half years… how difficult has it been to reacclimate to society? [51:21] You did receive some compensation from the state of Michigan, correct? What about the federal government? [54:48] One of the reasons we do these shows is so that potential jurors will do the right thing, look at things with the right skepticism, and put the proper weight behind their decision. Because these wrongful convictions happen all the time and people need to hear about these stories. [55:29] Did the man who committed these crimes ever get convicted? Have you spoken with him? [56:23] Thank you for coming on the show. I'm sorry for what you went through and am grateful for your advocacy work to help change some of these laws. [58:10] Thank you for watching Open Mike with another wrongfully convicted person, right here in Michigan. Eric Anderson spent nine years in prison for a crime he absolutely could not have committed. Another heartbreaking story. Lots of thanks to Eric for sharing his story. Like, share, comment, subscribe, and give us feedback on what you'd like us to cover next. Until next time!

Detroiter Thelonious Seaercy has wrongfully served 17 years behind bars for a murder that a self-professed hitman has confessed to committing. Despite no evidence tying him to the scene of the alleged crime, Searcy is stuck in a holding pattern. He and his lawyer await to see if the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office appeals a ruling from the Michigan Court of Appeals. Why is he stuck under house arrest? Why doesn't Prosecutor Worthy dismiss his charges? Tune into this riveting episode of Open Mike to find out. Show Notes [00:07] Welcome to Open Mike! [00:26] Thelonious Searcy's background and bio. [00:54] Welcome to the show, Thelonious. Your name came up on Episode 10 of Open Mike, and I learned about you a long time ago during the Davontae Sanford case. Your name came up because both of you were wrongfully convicted, and there's a hitman out there doing the crimes! You've been out of prison since April 2021… what has life been like for you since getting out? [02:14] The two children you mentioned — you had them even before you went to prison. How old are they? And your wife stuck by you the last seventeen years you were incarcerated? [03:01] You're out on bond right now waiting for a second trial. The Michigan Court of Appeals says you should be given a new trial. When you got that decision five months ago, how did you feel? [04:13] What's your understanding of why the Court of Appeals decided you deserve a second trial? [05:27] What was the aspect of the case that made them decide you deserve a new trial? [07:43] What is a 40-caliber bullet relevant? [09:04] How did you find out that Jamal Segars was murdered? [10:11] Although Thelonious was at a family BBQ with over a dozen alibi witnesses, he became a suspect in the case due to a jailhouse informant, whom he knew from the streets. [17:05] Ten years after his conviction, Thelonious submitted a Brady Violation to his judge, but it was dismissed, claiming the information wasn't new. [18:32] That Brady Violation must have had something to do with you being granted a second trial. Is that true? [23:20] You're out on bond, you're wearing a tether… Prosecutor Worthy has the ability to change her mind, but she says she wants to try you for a second time despite all these moving parts and various claims from multiple parties and admissions from hitmen… What about all the alibi witnesses, how many were called in the first trial? [25:11] Thelonious had improper, paid representation from an attorney who is since deceased. [25:52] Is your current attorney having discussions with Prosecutor Worthy about dismissing your second trial altogether? [26:54] What do you think Prosecutor Worthy's vendetta is? [29:19] You're confirmed to home in the meantime — do you have a trial date? [29:49] Thelonious wrote eighteen books while he was incarcerated. [29:56] Check out Thelonious's book, Be First: Part 1 & 2 (Hood Novel) on Amazon! [30:47] What do you think are the main reasons you were convicted in the first place? [37:54] What did this alleged eyewitness, Natasha, testify to? [39:29] You had this one eyewitness and three others who corroborated her claim … were they all there at the scene of the crime? [40:13] You believe that the jury will believe the alleged hitman, Vincent Smothers, if he testifies and admits responsibility for this murder? [40:57] I have a note here that says you recently graduated from Blackstone Career Institute… tell us what that is and what you hope to do with that, assuming that tether comes off! [43:04] Amazing. Thelonious, I wish you the best of luck and I hope things go your way. Please keep us up to date on what happens! Your case was eye-opening, and I hope you keep in touch. [44:21] Thelonious has a documentary in the works — be on the lookout for it in the next six months! [45:30] Thelonious Searcy's story isn't over — we will see if Kym Worthy decides to try him a second time or drop the charges. Comment, subscribe, comment, and share this episode with your friends and family! Take care.

Eli Savit is a nationally recognized attorney, public servant, and civil rights advocate who currently serves as the Washtenaw County Prosecutor. Prior to his term, he served as a law clerk to Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, was a civil-rights and public-interest attorney, and also had a career as a public-school teacher. In addition to serving as Washtenaw County's Prosecuting Attorney, Eli is a faculty member at the University of Michigan Law School. Eli has been an integral part of several major, successful civil rights and environmental initiatives in Michigan and across the country, including a successful effort to have the Michigan Civil Rights Commission recognize discrimination claims against LGBTQIA+ Michiganders, and assisting New Jersey, Maryland, and Puerto Rico in their quests to hold corporate polluters responsible for waterway contamination. In this inspiring installment of Open Mike, Eli discusses his close relationship with late Justice Ginsberg, and how her tutelage helped inform his decision to carve out a career shaped by public service. Additionally, he and Mike consider the inherent problems with the American cash bail system (one of two for-profit bail systems in the world) and reflect on Eli's recent, successful elimination of Washtenaw County's cash bail program! Show Notes [00:09] Eli Savit's background and bio as Washtenaw County Prosecutor. [01:26] Welcome to the show, Eli! There was a prosecutor for how many years prior to you? [2:03] How was taking over an office from someone who had been there for twenty-eight years? [03:46] You were born and raised in Ann Arbor, went to U of M Law School, and were clerk for two United States Supreme Court Justices, is that right? Retired Justice Sandra Day O'Connor and late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg. That had to have been amazing — what was that like? [06:05] The same-sex marriage case, Obergefell v. Hodges, wasn't that a Michigan case? [07:50] The way that last year went down with the former president getting that appointment… that was such a horrible way that went down, and I'm sure it was sad for Justice Ginsberg's legacy. Do you have any opinions on that? [10:50] After working as a clerk for two icons, you could have had any job that you wanted, ones that pay more lucratively. What was that thought process like? [12:46] The way you chose to run your campaign, one of radical inclusivity, was really impressive. When I read that, I wondered how you were going to make everyone happy — I've never heard of a campaign like that! Can you take us through that? [17:19] Let's talk about cash bail… last year, we filmed an episode with two young ladies who are reforming the system via Bail Project Detroit… it was such an eye-opening thing for me as an attorney. You're the first prosecutor I personally know who has eliminated cash bail. Could you explain to our viewers why you believe so strongly cash bail should be done away with? [25:57] Entire states are now abolishing cash bail. Washington D.C. got rid of it in 1992, and New Jersey got rid of it in 2017. Crime rates in New Jersey subsequently plummeted. [27:55] Research shows that people will still show up to court, even without cash bail as an incentive! Something like 90% of people show up to their court dates, either way. Is that what you're finding in Washtenaw? [30:42] After the bail situation, what are some other initiatives your office is working on? [31:09] On the first day of his term, Prosecutor Savit banned all zero-tolerance policies in favor of adopting a more holistic, case-by-case approach to various crimes and conditions under which they occurred. [36:00] On Open Mike, we've had at least ten guests who were wrongfully convicted. As a prosecutor, what does your office see as your role in helping to free innocent people who were wrongfully convicted in Washtenaw county? [40:28] There's a lot of discussion about blanket immunity which completely protects people from prosecution for crimes related to testimony they provide… what are your thoughts on blanket immunity for people who are bad actors in processes that result in wrongful convictions? [43:57] We see a ton of jail house snitches and bad IDs from police misconduct… have these two areas of potential problems been examined by your office? [47:18] Where did you teach in New York City? [48:28] You're doing so many amazing things in Washtenaw County, and I can't commend you enough. I know it's not easy, and I can't thank you enough for your service. We'll have you on in a year or two to touch base on all the incredible work you'll have undoubtedly done. Thank you again for being on Open Mike! [49:20] What a life, Eli is leading! Doing amazing things to change the criminal justice system for his constituents, and hopefully the world! Comment, like, and subscribe to Open Mike! We really appreciate you; stay tuned for new episodes coming up soon.

On December 27, 1988, North Carolina resident Gilbert Poole was arrested and charged with the murder of a Michigan man he had never met. Due to faulty evidence, inaccurate eyewitness testimony, and inept defense counsel, he would ultimately be wrongfully convicted of murder and spend the next 32 years of his life in prison. After independently maintaining his innocence for the first 14 years of his incarceration, Mr. Poole was represented by the Western Michigan University Cooley Law School Innocence Project for the next 18 years. Post-conviction DNA testing was conducted on crime scene evidence that matched neither Poole's nor the victim's, prompting the Michigan Attorney General's Conviction Integrity Unit to conduct a full investigation that resulted in his exoneration on June 15th, 2021. In this stunning and heartbreaking episode of Open Mike, Mr. Poole reflects on the profound personal losses he experienced because of his wrongful conviction, the little-known, harsh realities of the American criminal justice system, and how he intends to spend his remaining years as a free man. Show Notes [00:22] Welcome to Open Mike! [00:25] Gilbert Poole's background and bio. [01:19] Welcome to the show, Gilbert! It's so nice to have you here. We interviewed your attorney, Marla Mitchell-Cichon a few weeks ago and then you sent me a really nice email… tell our listeners and viewers what you thought of that interview and why you wanted to come on the show! [03:19] May of 2021, Oakland County Judge Rae Lee Chabot set aside your conviction… we saw the photos of you exiting prison with your arms raised in victory — what was it like to walk out a free man after 32 years in prison for a crime you knew you didn't commit and proclaimed your innocence over from day one? [04:46] You went in at age 22 and came out at age 55… that's a lifetime! What were some of the things that happened to your family while you were incarcerated that you can never get back? [07:25] Did you have any siblings growing up? [09:44] Who was Gilbert Poole at 22 years old when you were arrested? What were you up to at that point in your life? [11:12] When you were arrested, you had a girlfriend who played a horrible, pivotal role in all this… what was her name? Were you living together at the time? [12:59] About six months after the murder of Robert Meija, the date of which Gilbert was in Michigan instead of his native North Carolina, Gilbert's girlfriend went to the police and implicated him in the murder — so she could have a ride from North Carolina back to Michigan. [15:11] You get arrested for Robert's murder; he was last seen leaving a bar where several patrons provided a description and composite sketch of a suspect some said looked like you. Did it look like you? [17:02] Had you ever heard of Robert before? Or even been to that bar before? [21:32] As you're sitting there, listening to this bogus testimony, your head must just be exploding? [24:30] Since Gilbert's trial, bite-mark evidence has been debunked by countless leading forensic organizations. Prosecutors still try to bring it into trials, based on bad laws. [26:29] Your lawyer didn't give the jury a reason to disbelieve any of this shoddy evidence or testimony, no expert witnesses were called, nothing. What were they supposed to do other than believe it? [27:27] 11 of the 12 exonerees we've had on Open Mike didn't take the stand at their own trials. [27:59] Your ex-girlfriend lied about what you told her… how did she get the information about this murder? Did she even know about it, or did she make it up when she was talking to the police and falsely claimed you had previously killed? [29:54] Did she testify at trial? [32:31] Due to Gilbert's education level and lack of “finesse” in presenting his arguments as opposed to a license lawyer, the concerns he repeatedly voiced to the court of appeals were not taken seriously and dismissed. [33:06] The blood and hairs at the scene of the crime didn't match you, bite-mark evidence didn't match you, and some blood-stained pebbles were also found t the scene of the crime. Were those tested? [37:29] Is your defense attorney still practicing? [38:11] Let's fast forward 28 years… DNA samples confirmed your blood was nowhere at the scene of the crime. This is five years before you were released… tell us how that made it through the appellate court. [39:52] What was the evidence that convinced the Michigan Attorney General's Conviction Integrity Unit that your conviction was a mistake? [42:23] We learned on our last episode that while there are 6,000 prosecutors' offices in America, there are only 100 conviction integrity units (CIUs). [46:50] You were away for 32 years and have been released for not even three full months… you're not upset! You said you could barely find any malice in your heart, which is such a wonderful thing… that you're able to forgive quickly and try to enjoy your life. It's mind-blowing, and it's a lesson to us all. Listening to you is really beautiful. [49:18] What are your plans, now that you're out? [50:21] I'm happy that you're out, and that justice came for you, even if it was late. I hope that you find peace, happiness, and the mental health treatment that you deserve. If there's anything we can do to help, we'd be honored. Do you have any parting words for viewers of this show? [51:19] Thank you for coming on the show, Gilbert! Take care of yourself. [51:41] You heard it — Gilbert's story from his own words, his own voice. That was an intense one. I thank him for coming on the show, and I thank you for watching, commenting, and listening. We'll see you back on Open Mike… until next time! 

Marissa Boyers Bluestine is an award-winning criminal justice attorney and reform advocate who serves as the Assistant Director of the Quattrone Center for the Fair Administration of Justice at the University of Pennsylvania Law School. As Assistant Director, she oversees policy and public awareness by promoting reform through cutting-edge data, public education, and legislative reform for issues and outdated laws that beleaguer the criminal justice system. A former public defender, Marissa has helped facilitate the release of fourteen Pennsylvanians convicted of crimes they didn't commit, in addition to proactively working with law enforcement to train, update, and include them in investigative techniques empirically proven to exceed obsolete practices that lead to wrongful convictions. In this all-new installment of Open Mike, Marissa and Mike discuss the ever-growing need for conviction integrity units, holistic methods to help prosecutors' offices prevent and rectify wrongful convictions, and how the prosecutorial function must be extended past merely convicting and incarcerating people. Show Notes [1:38] Introducing Marissa Boyers Bluestine, Assistant Director of the Quattron Center for the Fair Administration of Justice from University of Pennsylvania School of Law! [01:48] We've talked about conviction integrity units (CIUs) on the show before… for our viewers who aren't aware, could you tell us what they are and what they do? [03:59] Why is it such a novel concept for prosecutors to hold their staff accountable, that they're not railroading defendants? [04:36] The prosecutorial function doesn't end at conviction and incarceration. It even continues once justice is served — there's no element of finality until justice is served. [05:18] So, the enlightened prosecutors who aren't out solely for convictions are taking justice seriously and digging into credible evidence that manifests decades later? [07:46] How many prosecutors' offices are there in this country? ­[09:19] I love that you're hearing about new conviction integrity units, even though there are only 100 for 6,000 prosecutors' offices. You have to have some political clout to pull this off, and be in the right jurisdiction! [10:47] Karen McDonald, the Oakland County Prosecutor, is opening a conviction integrity unit in October, 2021. [11:42] Visit convictionreview.net to check out a resource center designed for conviction review/integrity units in their beginning stages! [12:29] Who are some of the exemplary conviction review units around the country? [14:41] What does a conviction integrity “done wrong” set us up for? [16:08] For the thousands of prosecutors' offices that don't have CIUs… how do you convince them to put aside the politics and mistakes that may have been made in favor of doing the right thing? [17:42] There are a lot of common threads that link a lot of these wrongful convictions… what are some of the most frequent patterns you see? [19:26] Prosecutors are protected from being sued by absolute immunity, even if there are bad actors involved. As a result, there are never any learnings that help fix the problems at hand. [23:07] Under Brady law, exculpatory evidence submitted for review must be material; material evidence is the caveat. [25:34] Tunnel vision in the criminal justice context is a tendency of participants in the system, such as police or prosecutors, to focus on a specific theory of a case and to dismiss or undervalue evidence which contradicts that theory. [28:19] One of the key issues with CIUs is that they receive information and bring it to light — without them, the information would likely never see the light of day and the wrongfully convicted person would likely never be released. There's a shocking parallel between the amount of cases go through CIUs and the amount of cases that involve withheld evidence violating Brady standards; it's an extraordinarily high percentage. [28:51] How many people are sitting in prison because exculpatory evidence was withheld? It has to be in the thousands. [30:18] In the 28-year-long wrongful conviction case you mentioned… is that prosecutor's office now going back and reviewing every single file they have to ensure they've gotten the right suspects? [30:53] There should be a root cause analysis done of every exoneration case with people who have stakes in the outcome —  prosecutors, police, judges, defense, etc. No exoneration is ever one person; it's a system with multiple players. [32:31] How often, or how rare, is it for someone to give a false confession? [33:18] The way police are trained to conduct interrogations is driven to get a statement of inculpability — to get a statement that self incriminates, regardless of actual truth. And the first step of this process is to confront a suspect, talk over them, and relentlessly hound them until they stop denying. [36:35] Will Bendan Dassey ever get out of prison? [37:15] What's wrong with the judges who've studied that case, watched the show, and still remain unmoved and do nothing? [38:27] The word “innocent” doesn't appear in The Constitution. It's about guilt or not-guilt. If the courts determine there wasn't constitutional error — even if the person is innocent — they will remain in prison. We need to respond to cases of innocence. 43:56] [40:32 I think most states now mandate recordings of confessions to avoid false confessions, is that correct? [41:36] Make sure to visit convictionreview.net for resources on wrongful convictions and to connect with a conviction review unit, and the Quattron Centre's website for more holistic materials addressing all needed, long-term, structural improvements to the justice system. [43:32] The Macomb County Prosecutor is also opening a conviction integrity unit. [43:44] Marissa, thank you for being on the show, this was incredibly eye-opening! I really appreciate you educating me and our audience, this was really great. [44:02] If you know somebody who needs to hear more about CIUs and Innocence Projects, like this episode, share, comment as you usually do, and thank you for watching! I look forward to seeing you next time on Open Mike.

Professor Marla Mitchell-Cichon is an attorney, advocate, and criminal justice expert who has helped facilitate the release of seven wrongfully convicted Michiganders. As Executive Director of the WMU-Cooley Law Innocence Project, she and her team, largely consisting of law students, work to secure the release of factually innocent people solely through post-conviction DNA evidence, the only innocence organization in the state of Michigan to do so. To date, the WMU-Cooley Law Innocence Project has screened over 5,800 cases, several of which are actively being prepared for court. In this compelling, all-new episode of Open Mike, Marla discusses her 18-year-long work on the wrongful conviction of Gary Poole, a Michigan man who was falsely accused of murder and spent 32 years behind bars. Tune in to learn how she helped get him exonerated, how we can best protect ourselves if wrongly accused of a crime, and how WMU-Cooley Law Innocent Project can help if someone you know is falsely incarcerated! Show Notes [00:24] Background and bio of Marla Mitchell-Cichon.   [00:43] Marla, welcome to Open Mike!   [01:11] Can you tell us a little about the Western Michigan University Cooley Law Innocence Project?   [01:47] Most Innocence Clinics focus on cases without DNA or have a mixture of cases where DNA may or may not be involved. WMU Cooley's only takes on cases where there is a DNA component.    [02:47] What role do the students play at the Innocence Project?   [03:31] How did you personally become interested in helping the wrongfully convicted?   [04:14] The WMU-Cooley Law Innocence Project has helped a number of people, including Kenny Wyniemko who was on several of our episodes, including our 100th Episode Special. How gratifying is it when you're able to free an innocent person?   [05:19] I'm familiar with your work, specifically the case of Gilbert Poole… how did he become a suspect in that case?   [06:59] Weren't there cigarette butts and underwear that weren't run through DNA testing prior to the trial?   [08:38] DNA is one of the best tools to prove innocence… but it's performed by people, and people can make mistakes.   [10:38] Bite mark evidence has never been scientific, yet it's a very common forensic practice that prosecutors lean on to convict people.   [15:16] Contrary to popular belief, hair samples aren't scientifically accurate, unless the piece of hair has a root attached to it.   [16:51] In Mr. Poole's case, can you discuss the fingernail evidence that excluded his culpability?   [18:33] When you get involved in the Poole case, what eventually led to you convincing the state Attorney General's integrity unit to make the motion to release?   [23:31] When you have a criminal trial, that is the only opportunity you have to put the facts on a court record. Once that record is made, most of the time, any reviewing court will be limited to reviewing what's on the record.   [24:31] Now that these conviction integrity units are around, you went to them… what was the smoking gun that allowed you to convince them everyone got it wrong?   [26:36] In Poole's case, no one actually saw who killed the victim. Poole was never put in a line-up or independent identified. The government also introduced a composite drawing that was created after Poole had been arrested.   [27:29] Will Gilbert be compensated for the time he spent in prison?   [28:40] Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel and members from her office attended Mr. Poole's release reception and sincerely apologized for the struggles he unjustly experienced.   [30:58] There are still so many innocent people in prison. What can we, as a society, do to help the wrongfully convicted?   [32:21] Make sure to check out the WMU-Cooley Law Innocence Project's website for more information on the cases we discussed in this episode!   [32:47] Eighteen years of dedication on this case, Marla. It's frankly mind-boggling to me. I commend you, I respect you, and we're lucky to have you working on behalf of those whose voices have been silenced.   [33:31] If you have a loved one in prison, or are in prison yourself, the WMU-Cooley Law Innocence Project only accept inquiries and applications from the individuals who are incarcerated. Write directly to their office for assistance!   [33:58] Marla Mitchell-Cichon, thank you for being on Open Mike! I hope to talk to you again. [34:06] What a smart person, and what an incredible clinic she and her students run! Visit their website if you want to donate, educate yourself, or contact them for help. Thank you for being here on Open Mike! Like, subscribe, share, spread the word on this crucial issue. We'll see you next time!

Mike Ware is the Executive Director of the Innocence Project of Texas, where he champions the rights of the wrongfully convicted and tirelessly fights to overturn their sentences. In this compelling installment of Open Mike, he discusses the egregious case of Lydell Grant, a Houston man who was convicted on the basis of six false identifications, only to be released from prison a decade later once crime scene evidence was finally run through proper DNA testing. How can faulty identification processes be improved upon to avoid these miscarriages of justice? Why did it take a decade for DNA evidence to be reviewed when a man's life was on the line? Find out, on this all-new episode of Open Mike! Show Notes [00:11] Mike Ware's background as director of Innocence Project of Texas. [02:28] Welcome to Open Mike! So, tell us, how and why did you get involved in the Lydell Grant murder case? [04:50] Was that a flat-out lie? [05:34] At trial they determined the fingernail evidence was inconclusive? [06:23] Did the defense have the DNA looked at by their own expert? [07:39] Mr. Grant was identified by six eyewitnesses… the reason you were able to get him out of prison was due to the DNA. But the reason he was locked up to begin with was due to the eyewitnesses… Is the way that the murder happened relevant to his story? [11:01] Lots of people saw the perpetrator… I assume there was some kind of composite done? [12:24] How did the police find Mr. Grant? [13:29] The identification process wasn't videoed or recorded… were the suggestive tones, or finger pointing from the police? We don't know because these IDs were conducted in people's homes and other locations. [15:06] The identifications weren't conducted in a double-blind manner, meaning the detective presenting the photo spread to the witnesses knew which person in the spread was the suspect. [16:22] How did Lydell's trial go? From what I read, he had court-appointed counsel. [18:00] In Mike Ware's experience, jurors never believe alibi witnesses.  [19:32] Lydell was sentenced to life and wrote a letter to your offices, where it was vetted by law student staff. And what's really impressive is that one of the students found the DNA anomalies. This law student saved this guy's life! [21:33] How quickly after finding the DNA anomaly were you able to get the actual suspect's name? [29:22] So, rather than investigate the actual suspect, they want to keep investigating Lydell, who's been in prison all this time? That's very strange. [30:24] Did Mr. Grant know what was going on throughout all these months that there was another suspect? Or did you keep him in the dark as to not get his hopes up? [33:49] The technology was there in 2011. Had they properly tested the evidence back then, they would've found the suspect in the system then. [35:24] You mention the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals sat on the case, but I have a note that they refused his exoneration request, and then asked the six eyewitnesses who falsely identified him to respond to his claims of innocence! [37:22] It took ten years for the judges to get affidavits from the eyewitnesses explaining their current position. [41:12] Is Mr. Grant going to get some money in the state of Texas for his wrongful conviction? [41:50] Under Texas state law, Mr. Grant is entitled to $80,000 per year for every year he was locked up. [43:21] You mentioned this law you got passed… not even half the states have proper identification law, stating it has to be blind on both sides… how do we get that passed in every state? [46:12] I saw a statistic that over 5,000 or more people in Texan prisons are innocent. Is that true? [46:55] You're in a tough state, a conservative state, and the fact that you have an Innocence Project is astounding. You're doing great work. I appreciate it, and I'm sure the people of Texas appreciate it. If people watching want to help, how can they do that? [47:19] Make sure to visit their website, or even call Mike Ware on his cell phone! 817-992-1132. [47:36] Thank you, Mike, for being on Open Mike. These stories are so important to tell. I think Mr. Grant is really lucky you set up such a great team to review his case. Congrats on all your success and thank you for coming on the show. [48:29] Texas Innocence Project came through for Lydell Grant. Six eyewitnesses says he killed a man, and they were dead wrong! The actual killer, proven by DNA evidence, is currently on trial. Let us know what you think about this case. I'd love to hear from you. If you know someone who needs to hear this episode, pass this along, comment, like, and subscribe. Thank you for being a fan of Open Mike, and we'll see you next time!

In 1988, Alfonzo Riley's friend asked him if he wanted to make some money. As a broke college student, he said yes. Little did he know that simple decision would shape the rest of his life. Alfonzo ended up transporting drugs from Brooklyn to Albany in a transaction gone awry. Two men ended up losing their lives and, while he was in a different room when the shootings occurred, he was charged under New York's controversial felony murder law and sentenced to 71 years to life. It would take overcoming two malicious judges, three decades behind bars, and multiple applications for clemency for Riley to be given a second chance — his sentence was commuted by Governor Andrew Cuomo in 2018. Having earned multiple degrees during his incarceration, Alfonzo is now a paralegal case handler in the New York Legal Aid Society's wrongful conviction unit, attempting to judicial wrongdoings like that he experienced. Why are felony murder statutes allowed to harshly punish people who didn't commit murder? Several states have already abolished them — is a federal ban next? Were the judges on Alfonzo's case ever held accountable for his excessively harsh sentence? Show Notes [00:01] Alfonzo Riley's background and bio. [1:51] Alfonzo, welcome to Open Mike! I'm so glad you're here, I've read so much about you. Tell our listeners and viewers about the day that changed your life. [03:27] Was this the first time you were involved in anything like that? [04:18] I assume it probably sounded like easy money at the time! Getting paid money to transport… what was it, marijuana? [04:59] You were the first person in your family to go to college. Went to New York Institute of Technology, got good grades… and it just sounds like you made a dumb decision. Take us through how everything went down. Were you the driver? Why were you needed on this drug run? [5:54] Were you armed? [06:27] I know you were on another level of the building when the shooting occurred… tell me how that happened? [07:32] What did you think when you heard gunshots? You were there to show your support during the transaction, so what was going through your head? [08:11] The drug sale took an antagonist turn when people were being declined the cocaine they wanted to purchase, which is when the shooting occurred. [09:34] When did you know you were being charged with felony murder? [09:22] In New York City, a typical murder trial will take between 12-18 months to go to trial. Alfonzo went to trial in 6 months in Albany, which was hugely accelerated, especially in 1988. [10:43] On Open Mike, we've interviewed over ten exonerees, but yours is a different type of story. The fact that you weren't in the room, but were charged under the felony murder rule nonetheless… have you ever denied that your presence or any actual involvement? [12:47] Did the trigger man get the same exact sentence? [13:26] Did you have a jury trial? Were all the other participants convicted? [14:26] I remember in law school learning about felony murder, and it's a bizarre statute. It was used as a deterrent for even being in a bit part in a crime. For example, if you drove someone to light an empty house on fire, and that house had a person inside who was killed, the driver will get the same charges as the person who actually struck the match. [16:35] You're sentenced to 71 years. You're coming right from college, probably a decent dorm at a good university. Can you even describe the change, going from college, to prison for 31 years? [18:55] What's amazing to be is all you accomplished in prison. You got an Associate's Degree, a Bachelor's Degree, a paralegal degree, worked in the law library, volunteered at a children's center, and — what's most interesting to me — is you became a chess champion! So you definitely made the most of your time, which is pretty unusual — wouldn't you say? [20:26] Alfonzo is currently studying for the LSAT. [20:42] Let's talk about your chess championship! Did you know how to play before prison? [21:13] Who taught you how to elevate your game in prison? [21:56] What was your standard, opening move? [22:00] What did you think about The Queen's Gambit? [23:35] Are you still playing? Have you ever been in a tournament? [23:33] Let's talk about your clemency. For our viewers and listeners who don't know the difference between a pardon and clemency, can you explain? [25:39] After various application attempts, on December 31st, 2018, Governor Andrew Cuomo commuted Alfonzo's sentence. [26:03] How did you get Cuomo's attention? He has about 7,000 clemency applications sitting on his desk and has let out less than twenty. How did you get his attention? [30:42] There were only two criminal judges in the court that Alfonzo went through, and they had a mutual competition going in which they would see who could sentence defendants to more time before they retire. [32:08] I'm going to assume they were never disciplined? Holding judges accountable is nearly impossible. It's reprehensible, and I'm sorry you had to deal with that. [32:57] You had some great people who got the governor's attention, you found out about your release on New Year's Eve… and it's only been two years! I heard you still had to remain in prison for four weeks even after the governor announced your commutation? That had to have been excruciating! [34:24] You've been out for two-and-a-half years. What are you up to now? How's life? [35:20] These days, Alfonzo is a paralegal case handler at the Legal Aid Society in New York in the wrongful conviction unit. The unit started in May 2019 and they've already experienced success with clients Carlos Weeks and James Davis. [36:20] What a perfect job for you. I mean, how lucky are these guys to have you working on their cases. Someone who cares and takes it seriously. I'm really impressed. I also heard you got married in prison in 2014, not knowing if you'd ever get out! You're still married and living with your wife now, congratulations! [37:12] I wish you the best of luck in law school, and if you ever want to bring an exoneree on Open Mike to help generate publicity for the ills of our criminal justice system, I'd love to have you back on the show. It was super nice to meet you — keep in touch! [37:59] What a nice guy, Alfonzo Riley. Really impressed with what he did in prison and how it's serving him now. If you know anybody who needs to hear this episode, send it to them! Like, comment, subscribe, and let us know the types of things you want us to address. We really appreciate you listening and watching. We'll see you next time.

We're making a departure from our standard format for a very special Father's Day exclusive! In this heart-warming episode, Mike is joined by his daughters Jillian, Ella, and Lexie who flip the script on their dad and ask him the burning questions you've always craved the answers to. What career would Mike have if he weren't a lawyer? Which professional snafu has he learned the most from? If he were a salad ingredient, which one would he be and why? Unlock the Morse Code and learn more about your favorite attorney-turned-podcast host in this all-new installment featuring three very special guest hosts. Show Notes [00:56] Mike Morse: Welcome to a special, Father's Day edition of Open Mike! You can see I have my daughters, Ellie Morse, Lexie Morse, and Jillian Morse who's in Brooklyn. Thank you for coming on today! [01:19] MM: We're doing a special episode where my daughters wanted to ask my questions. I don't know them, these haven't been pre-screened, and everything is fair game. So, we'll see how they do! Jillian, you're the oldest — do you want to go first? [01:49] Jillian Morse: Yes! How old were you when you knew you wanted to be a father? [02:34] Ella Morse: What are some of the fondest memories you had with your dad? [03:29] Lexie Morse: What's the biggest thing you've learned from your dad? [04:16] EM: He taught you well — you're the best dad in the world! [04:23] JM: If your dad wasn't a lawyer, do you think you would be in this field doing personal injury? [05:08] MM: You've stumped me, Jillian! I'll say yes because I've been doing it for thirty years and love it. But would I have done it if my father Joel wasn't one? I'll say yes, but truly I have no clue. [05:30] EM: What do you enjoy most about being a father to us? [06:18] LM: Okay, I have one. What is your favorite tradition we have as a family? [07:37] JM: As a kid, how did you and your dad celebrate Father's Day? [08:46] EM: Super cute! This question is kind of unrelated to Father's Day, but it's one I'm curious… if you could travel one place you haven't been before, what would it be? [09:45] LM: What's your favorite hobby? [10:24] MM: I took Lexie golfing recently, and she almost killed a kid. She hit a ball right into another kid and was like, “Alright, I'm done! Never doing this again!” Isn't that basically what happened? [10:41] JM: What are the top two items on your bucket list for 2021 and 2022? Are you going to write another book? [12:52] EM: What is a mistake or failure that has taught you the most in life? What's a downfall that brought you back up? [14:09] LM: Where is your favorite place to travel to? [14:32] JM: I feel anywhere warm with mountains, you'll be happy. What's your favorite game to play as a family? [16:08] LM: This is one I really want to know the answer to… which one of us gets on your nerves the most? And you can't say me! [17:11] EM: I have a question that you ask often! I'm curious — if you could be any part of the salad, which part would you be and why? [18:11] MM: I ask that question in interviews sometimes, and that's where Ella got that question! [18:21] JM: I have a question that's not fully developed, but… how would you feel if you had a son instead of three daughters? Do you think you'd be more prepared to raise a son? [19:21] MM: Would I have been equipped? No, I wouldn't have been equipped! I wasn't equipped to raise a daughter either, but I did an okay job. I would have been happy with a boy, and I was thrilled with a third girl. Three girls is special, it's unique, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. [20:19] MM: I'm now seeing questions from my staff that I'm going to ask YOU guys. One final question, and then we're going to end. What's your favorite memory growing up, focused on your Dad? [21:04] JM: This was a couple summers ago and we went on a Daddy-Daughter trip, you visited me while I was out there for a couple days. And we would walk the old, cobblestone streets together, ate some amazing sushi on Chelsea Street, then we went to Berlin, had an amazing time, and then we went to Prague. Every second on that trip was so fun, never a dull moment. [22:11] EM: That really jogged my memory! I think traveling in general is something we all value and love. And I think it's rare to go on a trip, just one parent to a daughter. One of the trips you and I did was canoeing in Green River, Utah. And we had so much fun, we laughed, we had no idea what we were doing. [23:46] LM: I loved going to Daddy-Daughter dances with you! Getting dressed up and dancing all night. [24:14] MM: Girls, thank you so much for coming on Open Mike, and being yourselves and asking questions. I love you all so, so, so much. [24:36] MM: Thank you all for watching this special episode of Open Mike. Happy Father's Day to all the dads out there, and we'll see you next time! Thank you.

In 2007, Floridian Air Force Sargent Ron Wright was shocked to learn his friend Paula O'Conner and her infant son Elijah were horrifically strangled and murdered inside her home. Although no forensic evidence, weapon, cell records, or any testimony incriminated Ron, he was accused of the murder, and held in jail for six years until a 2013 trial where he would be determined guilty and sentenced to death. In 2017, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that all evidence presented was “purely circumstantial” and insufficient to prove Ron was the murderer. He was acquitted of the murder charges and became the 27th person to be exonerated from death row in Florida. Inspired by the injustice he faced, Ron is now a staunch advocate, partnering with Witness to Innocence and Floridians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty to abolish the death penalty along with other criminal justice reform initiatives. How has Ron managed to rebuild a life that was stolen from him? Did Paula and Elijah O'Conner ever receive the justice they deserved? Find out the answers to these questions and more on this stirring installment of Open Mike. Show Notes [00:51] Ron Wright, welcome to Open Mike! [00:05] I've been reading all about you… what an ordeal you've been through. Before we dive into everything that happened to you… you were in Desert Storm, Desert Shield, you were an active Florida police officer… is that true? [01:38] What made you want to serve your country and community? [02:16] Were you born and raised in Florida? [02:36] Let's go back to 2007… you were living in Orlando, married and with a son at the time? [03:08] How did you meet Paula O'Conner… what year was that? [03:59] Did you eventually date this woman? [05:11] You've maintained you've never had a physical, romantic relationship with her? [06:02] Describe your friendship — would you see her daily, weekly, monthly when you were in town? [06:54] She was murdered in 2007 with her young son… before she was murdered, she released a blog post on a military-type website accusing you of a series of crimes, correct? She alleged that she was your mistress, you were her father's child, and she had contacted your wife. [08:14] Ron and his wife were estranged at this time, but not divorced. [08:29] How did you find out Paula had been killed? [10:23] Did your defense attorney ask when the last time you two talked on the phone? [10:51] Three weeks before the murder, is it true she sued you for medical bills for the child she claimed you fathered? [12:10] Why would you want to have her on your insurance if you didn't have sex with her? [13:53] Are you maintaining that you only had sex with her once? Or are there other times you remember? [15:08] Ron had a friendly, almost mentor relationship with Paula's daughter who was in the ROTC program. [15:26] How old was the baby when he was murdered? [17:01] You're maintaining that you didn't see her at all while she was pregnant? [17:16] You're not denying the baby, Elijah, who was sadly murdered in 2007, was your child? [17:59] You were interviewed by the police shortly after the murders and were all over the news. They didn't arrest you for approximately six years after the murders… is that true? [19:01] Ron was in prison from his arrest in 2008 until his trial in 2013, maintaining his innocence the entire time. [21:30] Did you have court-appointed attorneys, did the military provide you attorneys, did you hire your own? [21:59] For five years, your two court-appointed attorneys went through the discovery process, researched, and prepared for your 2013 trial where you faced the death penalty? [24:13] There's one piece of circumstantial evidence I want to talk about. A type of glove found at the scene of the murders that was accessible at the military base you stayed at… DNA was found on it, but then DNA wasn't found… tell us about this glove. [28:28] How long was this trial? Did you present other alibi witnesses? [30:14] How far was the base from Paula's home? Her daughter wasn't home at the time of the murders? [31:19] The daughter was set to receive over half a million in life insurance proceeds… was she ever looked at as a potential witness? [32:25] In your opinion, did the murderer wear this glove? [34:18] Did they pull a Johnnie Cochran on you and have you put the glove on? [36:33] Do you have any idea where the glove was found inside the home? [37:28] I read that the police allege you didn't cooperate in their investigation. Do you feel you cooperated? [39:04] Let's talk about the circumstantial evidence at the scene of the crime… in your case, being sued for medical bills, the alleged infidelity, the glove — these types of things are circumstantial evidence… as you look back on this years later, are you surprised the jury convicted you based on this evidence that doesn't directly tie you to the crime? [41:12] As Ron told his attorneys — the case felt more like a paternity case masquerading as a murder case. [43:55] Your lawyers mentioned the outcome would hinge on the results of the paternity test, which ended up coming back positive. Tell me about the day when you discovered you were the father. [46:34] You maintain that Paula invited you over, and got you drunk on Jell-O shots to the point where you didn't remember having sex with her. [49:01] From what you're telling us… this woman had to have been mentally ill! The stories she was telling were delusional, which suggests a mental instability. [51:10] Paula had an incarcerated brother in a work release or similar program who had gone on the run during one of his times away from prison. Her address was one of his last known addresses. When Ron refused to help him, which would have been aiding and abetting, she exploded at him. This was the first behavior Paula demonstrated that may have suggested some latent illness or instability. [53:09] Did you testify at trial? Was there evidence of her being unstable in any way? [54:02] Other than the circumstantial evidence of being sued by Paula three weeks earlier, the positive paternity test, and the glove, was there anything else the prosecution used to assassinate your character? [56:18] How did your lawyers argue that you didn't remember having sex with Paula that night and that whole series of events without your testimony? [57:34] Is there anything in hindsight that you think your lawyers could have done differently? [59:45] No Innocence Projects took on Ron's case because Florida's constitution demands that every death penalty case be reviewed by the Florida Supreme Court in what is called a direct appeal. During this direct appeal, Ron was acquitted by all seven justices because there was no evidence that tied him to the crime. It didn't even go to appellate court in between.  [01:04:15] You can watch the oral arguments before the Florida Supreme Court here. [01:05:42] Tell me what you're up to these days! [01:06:10] Ron works with both Witness to Innocence and Floridians for Alternatives to the Death Penalty, which has elected him to their executive board as a director, chiefly working to abolish the death penalty amongst other criminal justice reform initiatives. [01:06:52] You have not been compensated by the state of Florida for the 8.5 years you spent in prison, have you? Are you fighting for it now? [01:06:41] To this day, no one knows what happened in Paula O'Conner's house. And to that point, no one wins in this circumstance. [01:12:31] Ron, thank you for being here with us on Open Mike. I appreciate you for sharing your story with us. [01:14:04] There you have it. I didn't know what to expect with Ron Wright's story, but I love the give-and-take we had. He said he would have convicted himself, I probably would have convicted him on circumstantial evidence, and we would have been way wrong. If you know anybody who would find this episode interesting, forward it to them, tag them, comment, like, subscribe! And thank you for watching. Take care

In 1973, Detroit artist and award-winning boxer Ray Gray was accused of breaking into a local drug dealer’s home and fatally shooting him. Though none of the surviving occupants were able to identify the invaders, Ray became a focus of the investigation. Tunnel vision, corruption, faulty identification processes, suppressed evidence, and failure to investigate other suspects culminated in additional tragedy — refusing to admit his guilt, Ray was sentenced to life in prison without parole where he would remain for the next 48 years. Ray's wrongful incarceration catalyzed a decades-long quest for freedom and truth. Collaborating with The Innocence Project and legendary Detroit journalist Bill Proctor, he accepted a plea deal from the Wayne County Prosecutor’s office and was finally released from prison on May 25th, 2021, after nearly a half-century behind bars. In this captivating installment, Ray sits down with Mike for his FIRST, exclusive interview following his release — a mere week after he obtained freedom. Ray and Mike cover the gamut of his experiences— how he found love while in prison, the role art played in helping him cope with incarceration, challenges readjusting to civilian status, his plans for the future as a free man, and more. Show Notes [00:02] Welcome to Open Mike [01:08] Barbara Gray and Ray Gray, thank you both for coming on Open Mike. Ray, what was your first week out of prison, after 48 years, like for you? [02:04] You’ve been in prison since 1973… to say the world has changed is an understatement. What are some of the things you’ve seen that were different? [03:20] Ray is hesitant about lingering in stores for fear he’ll be accused of stealing something and be sent back to prison. He’s still adjusting to post-prison life and will be for a while. [04:20] I can’t imagine the post-traumatic stress, and anxiety, and trauma you must be experiencing, dealing with all these new things. [06:36] Quality of food and access to mobile devices after heavy telephone usage monitoring has been a hugely different experience compared to incarceration. [07:37] As I’m reading the stories, and I got to meet your wife this morning, part of this is a love story! I want to bring your wife, Barbara, into the interview. Barbara, you met Ray in 1978 when he was already incarcerated for five years… how did you two meet? [10:34] How many years had you been in the prison system teaching art before you met Ray? [11:26] Was it love at first sight for you, Ray? [12:48] There was a seven-year gap between your first meeting and your 1985 wedding in prison. How did that work — you were corresponding, you would see each other on weekends? [15:19] Were you able to stand next to each other and get married in prison? [16:04] You’ve never been able to sleep together in the same house for thirty-five years… what has this first week together been like? [19:06] To set the stage, the original crime was the robbery and murder of Ruben Bryant on February 6th, 1973… three short months later, you were sentenced to life in prison. Your lawyer didn’t advise you to have a jury trial, so you had a bench trial under a less experienced judge… You’ve maintained your innocence all these years — did you know Ruben prior to the murder? [20:39] You were home at the time of the murder and had at least four people with you who testified on your behalf. Who was your defense attorney back then? Was he court-appointed? [23:11] There was one eyewitness who testified that you were part of the robbery that resulted in murder. Is that accurate? Could she pick you out of a lineup? [24:51] Other than her eyewitness testimony, was there any other evidence that linked you to the scene of the murder? [27:33] A mustache was the perpetrator’s only identifying factor the eyewitness honed in on. Ray happened to have a mustache when he went into the lineup — after being threatened by one of the police officers. The eyewitness identified Ray before he even stepped under the light. [28:50] Many people fought for your innocence, including two people sitting in the room with us — former TV journalist Bill Proctor and former Michigan State police officer and deputy director of the Detroit Crime Commission, Ellis Stafford. [29:13] Bill, you started reporting this story in a professional capacity but then started believing Ray’s story… can you take us on that journey and what compelled you to believe him? [32:43] In 1980, a man named Charlie Matthews signed an affidavit admitting he was present at the scene of the crime, but then pled the fifth. So, as early as 1980, people were trying to help Ray — that’s forty plus years ago! [34:49] Bill, you’ve been on the show multiple times and we’ve had many conversations with the U of M Innocence Clinic… these types of scenarios keep coming up. What they did to Ray is textbook and disgusting… [35:27] Ellis, this is the first time we’ve met, thank you for coming on the show, sir. How did you get involved in Ray’s case? [36:22] Ellis believes he and Bill were allowed to speak with Ray in prison because the wardens themselves believed Ray was innocent. They also allowed a polygraph test in 2012 that Ray passed. [39:10] Ray, before this experience, you were a four-time Golden Glove boxing champion! Tell us about that, how did you get into boxing? [40:17] Did you create art throughout the last 48 years in prison? Where is all this artwork now? [43:04] Throughout Ray’s case, police were complicit in Brady Violations by withholding evidence that would have affected the outcome of the trial. [46:07] Ray is discussing all the lack of evidence that implicated him… witnesses were on the floor, looking up at the suspect. Bill, where did all of this information come from? [48:21] We’ve never interviewed someone who has maintained their innocence… yet, Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy vacated your first-degree murder sentence, and asked you to please guilty to second-degree murder. You pled no contest, which they accepted and gave you a lesser sentence for time served which is when you were released from prison. [50:43] Ray, when did you start having discussions with your lawyers over this outcome being a possibility? Was it days, weeks, months? Take us through the whole negotiation process of your plea deal [52:25] The fact that you pled no contest to second-degree murder — you’re saying you can appeal that? [55:10] You were sitting in prison for 48 years… what were you waiting for? [57:15] Do you think the witness was the major holdup in your case? [57:51] You said you’ve been waiting 48 years for the truth to come out… you’ve now been out of prison for a week. Do you feel that the truth came out? [58:28] Marvin Bryant, the former Wayne County Sheriff actually thought you were the wrong man, is that correct? [60:01] You’ve maintained your innocence, steadfast. Tell me about your decision to plead no contest to get out… how agonizing or easy was that process? [61:00] One of the reasons Ray accepted the plea deal was due to health risks, including a 98% positive COVID-19 test rate, the highest of any prison in the country. [01:01:03] If you had lied and admitted guilt to a parole board, do you think you would have gotten out sooner? [01:02:28] You could be one of the most principled and patient people… did you think this day would come? [01:04:11] I don’t think there’s anyone who could listen to you tell your story and not believe you. [01:05:35] Is there a fight left in this scenario? What is your team telling you the next steps are? [01:06:36] Because the conviction integrity unit didn’t get you an exoneration, you’re not entitled to Michigan’s Compensation Fund, which would entitle you to $50,000 for every year served — $2.5 million. Was that a bitter pill to swallow? [01:08:26] Bill, I know you’re frustrated. Do you think an unwillingness to pay victim’s compensation played a role in any of this? What’s your perspective? [01:09:56] In Ray’s case, why do you think they wouldn’t exonerate him? [01:14:53] Ray, it sounds like you had a lot of supporters, but Bill Proctor especially did a lot for you while you were in prison. Have you been able to connect since your release? What would you like to say publicly to him? [01:16:41] What does the future look like for you? [01:20:06] I love that you’re an artist and art helped you through 48 long years, and that you’re still creating. I would love to see what you create…from the Mike Morse Foundation, we’re going to give you a donation toward your art supplies, so you can buy a whole lot of supplies, and canvasses, and I hope you’ll come back and show me some of your artistry. [01:24:29] Out of the 107 episodes we’ve done, this is probably the most important, the most meaningful one. I really thank you for being so vulnerable, and opening up, and coming here so soon after your release. These stories are very important to hear, so people can educate themselves… your story is amazing, and I wish you and Barbara the best life together. You are quite a teacher. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. [01:26:05] There you have it — Ray Gray’s story, incredibly powerful and moving. If you know somebody who needs to hear this episode, forward this to them. Listen, comment, like, and subscribe. Thank you for tuning in to Open Mike.

While release from prison can be a joyful occasion, people who have been incarcerated face an entirely new series of challenges upon reclaiming their civilian status. Housing, a fundamental human right, is perhaps the most daunting of these challenges which can be observed in the disproportionately high number of homeless people with criminal histories. Pioneer Human Services is a Seattle-based social enterprise that partners with communities to transform society by honoring the humanity of people, reducing the impact of mass incarceration, and empowering people to lead safe, healthy, productive lives by overturning barriers, such as housing discrimination. In this inspiring latest installment, Mike sits down with CEO Karen Lee to discuss ways we can lessen the stigma against people who were formerly incarcerated and normalize affirming reentry programs for the betterment of everyone in our society. Show Notes [00:02] Welcome to Open Mike! [00:46] Karen Lee’s bio and background as CEO of Pioneer Human Services. [01:44] Welcome to the show, Karen! [02:21] A lot of the people we’ve interviewed, especially in wrongful convictions, have talked about how they don’t have many housing options or familial help when they’re released from prison. Tell us about what you’re doing to help them! [02:42] Housing is probably the biggest challenge that people experience after prison. Not many studies are conducted in this sector, but all of them identify that a disproportionate amount of homeless people have criminal history. [04:57] Editor’s note: for the purpose of the show, nonincarcerated people will be referred to as “civilians.” [08:17] I’m impressed — 500 units seems like a lot of units to be able to offer people! Is the government, local, state, or federal, subsidizing these at all? [08:51] HUD sends vouchers, but when Pioneer accepts those vouchers, they lose authority over who gets placement in those units. [11:27] Pioneer Human Services believes universal housing is a fundamental, human right. Everyone deserves it, regardless of what has happened to them in their past. [12:48] Part of incarceration, we would hope, is called reentry planning, where people are offered education, degree opportunities, trade skills, so they can support themselves upon release. When people who are wrongfully convicted are released, the prison oftentimes receives less than 24 hours’ notice. Depending on the nature of the crime, some people aren’t even offered these educational or training opportunities, because reentry isn’t deemed a legitimate possibility.   [14:11] With the thousands of people you’ve helped, I’m curious — what are some of the common stereotypes and misconceptions about people who have been incarcerated? [17:43] These are all really great points. How do we educate people and change the beliefs and stigmas surrounding people who have been imprisoned? [20:40] One of the ways is to change the language with which we identify people. For example, instead of saying “inmate” say “someone who has been an inmate.” By identifying their humanity first, you refrain from labeling them. [21:51] Do people who were formerly incarcerated experience the same discrimination finding a job as they do housing? [24:34] Do you understand where the employers are coming from in their concerns and fears of hiring people who were convicted of felonies? More specifically, do you think those fears are misplaced? [25:22] Our country tends to take this blanket approach regardless the nature of one’s crime, they’re automatically not “worthy” to be hired. [26:06] We see so many racial inequities about people going into prison… are you seeing the same racial inequities once people are released? [27:10] During our last economic expansion, when unemployment was at 5%, people who had a felony conviction were at 35% unemployment, Black men were at 37% unemployment, and Black women were around 42%. [29:11] As a society, how do you think we level the playing field and eliminate social inequities? [31:31] Is expungement one of the solutions to this issue? Is that something you’re pushing toward? [33:30] Are you optimistic with a new President and new Congress that we’ll see some changes made to the criminal justice system? [35:27] Make sure you check out the Pioneer Human Services website and take their mass incarceration quiz to see what you know and educate yourself on this important issue. Connect with Karen Lee on LinkedIn and follow Pioneer on Facebook and Twitter as well! [36:25] It was such a pleasure to chat with and learn from you, Karen. Thanks for coming on the show!] [37:00] If you know somebody who needs to hear this episode, forward this to them. Listen, comment, like, and subscribe. We love you all for tuning in, and we do need to educate ourselves and each other on these issues. Thanks for watching and being a fan! Talk to you next time.

For the last sixteen years, Susan Slotnick has gone beyond the walls at the Woodbourne Correctional Facility to bring the joy, passion, and healing properties of modern dance to incarcerated men and boys. After retiring the dance company she ran for forty years, Susan was free to teach in concordance with her true humanistic values: mindfulness, kindness, social justice, and universal accessibility. Her volunteer work in the prison system is the culmination of these values. Through her love, talent, and attention, Susan has impacted countless lives and facilitated legitimate rehabilitative progress in men’s prisons, as well as AIDS and cancer survivors, and homeless populations. Susan has witnessed firsthand the transformative power artistic expression can have on otherwise marginalized — or confined — communities. How can we holistically amplify our inmate programs so that those who return to society avoid becoming recidivism statistics? Show Notes [00:01] Welcome to another episode of Open Mike! [00:43] Susan Slotnick’s background and bio. [01:54] Susan, welcome to the show! Very happy to have you. I wanted to start with your background and childhood and how it prepared you for what you’re doing today. [03:03] Susan was a “juvenile delinquent” with a troubled childhood exacerbated by wildly different parents and a traumatizing household. However, she had many different artistic passions and outlets for exploring them. [04:37] How many years now have you been working in the prison system? [05:28] Susan doesn’t believe in incarcerating young people, except in the rare cases they must be locked up to protect society. [05:49] It doesn’t sound like you were ever concerned for your safety, walking into any of these prisons? [06:51] In twenty years, Susan was only concerned for her safety once. [07:03] What compelled you to seek this out, to go into prison to teach the arts? [09:39] Are you formally trained in dance? [09:43] When she was younger, Susan studied under the wife of famed Russian ballet dancer, Igor Youskevitch. [12:51] Could you tell us about some success stories about people you taught to dance while in the system? [16:08] One of Susan’s students who developed stage 4 stomach cancer was eventually released early, after multiple denied appeals, largely because of his participation in her dance program. The video of his performance can be found on her website. [18:21] That story alone must have made the last twenty years worth it, right? [19:13] Are prisoners generally receptive to dance? Are they good dancers, or does it even matter? [20:59] 97-98% of prisoners are eventually released, which is a very important reason to be more interested in the quality of prison programming. [22:22] The prison circumstance for a certain segment of the men makes them want to avail themselves to every possibility to have a better life on the inside — so they were willing to fully immerse themselves into the experience. [23:26] Were you regularly able to showcase dance to the other prisoners? If so, how did they react? [27:23] It looks like you update your Facebook page regularly, and it’s amazing to see these men dancing with such passion… what kind of feedback are you getting from strangers or your Facebook friends about what you post? [28:50] Is your program run on donations? Does it need help if people are inspired by this story? [29:54] Susan doesn’t need any assistance, and simply requests people educate themselves via independent methods or her book, Flight: the Dance of Freedom. [31:08] Susan, I really appreciated your story and your mission. Thank you for coming on the show! [31:37] An interesting episode! We don’t oftentimes dive into this aspect of the incarceration system. Really inspiring. If you enjoyed this episode, please comment, share and like. Thank you for being with us on Open Mike!

Detroit native Ira Lee Todd is a former police officer and criminal investigator. After being wrongfully charged with murder while working in a gang-related crimes task force within the Detroit Police Department, Ira made it his personal mission to help free the wrongly-convicted. One of his most notable cases was that of Davontae Sanford, who was wrongfully convicted of a quadruple homicide at the age of 14. In his recent conversation with Mike, Ira discusses how he became involved in criminal investigations, his wrongful murder charge, corruption within the legal system, and how he's continuing to help free the wrongfully convicted with his new STARZ program ‘Wrong Man.'

On February 20th, 2020, Kevin Baker and Sean Washington walked out of prison after spending twenty-five years locked up for a double-murder they didn’t commit. The trial that condemned them to a quarter century of incarceration relied on a sole witness who later acknowledged she was under the influence of crack cocaine at the time of the killings. How did Kevin and Sean prove their innocence? Was justice for the victims ever attained? Tune in to this week’s jarring installment of Open Mike to find out. Show Notes [00:58] Kevin Baker’s and Sean Washington’s backgrounds and bios. [01:47] Mike Morse: Kevin Baker and Sean Washington, welcome to Open Mike! Let’s start with Kevin. How long were you in prison for a murder you did not commit? [02:21] MM: I know this is a really hard question, but how has this affected your life and the types of things you missed in prison? [03:07] MM: Sean, do you want to answer that question? [03:14] Sean Washington: Being in prison takes a toll on you. We’ve lost multiple family members, didn’t have the opportunity to be fathers to our children, we missed out on a lot. Prison does something psychological to you, too. Men who do time in prison suffer PTSD, just like people who go to war. [04:01] MM: At 23 years old, before getting arrested, what were your plans for the future? [05:39] MM: What was it like growing up in Camden, New Jersey? [08:03] MM: I unfortunately have to bring you back to January 28th, 1995… there’s a double a murder that would change both of your lives forever… [09:57] Sean encountered the bodies of Margaret Wilson and Rodney turner, initially mistaking Rodney’s body for his nephew’s, which made him distraught and compelled him to called 911 anonymously. [10:34] MM: Five days later, an informant said her cousins were in the area. Did either of you know her cousins? [12:51] MM: Were either one of you friends these witnesses? Did you used to hang out with either of them? [14:30] MM: Police decided to make arrests on February 13th, 1995. Kevin you were taken into custody, and Sean, you ran from the police. What happened there? [17:28] MM: Did either of you have the understanding that there was a bad identification? [18:11} Kevin Baker: I knew it was a bad identification, because I wasn’t there! I’m starting to question if the witness was actually there… her story can’t make sense if I wasn’t there… there was nothing that corroborated her claim. [20:28] MM: What kind of defense attorney did you have? [21:41] MM: Did your lawyer ever interview your alibi witnesses? [24:25] MM: Did anything happen with these lawyers? Did they get reprimanded or grieved? [25:35] MM: I assume you were offered plea deals? [26:53] MM: They never recovered weapons, DNA evidence, or more than one unreliable witness named Denise Rand? [27:38] MM: Denise Rand was allegedly paid under a material witness statute. [32:01} MM: Kevin and Sean had a joint trial.     [33:31] MM: Too many people we interview didn’t make noise when it became apparent they were getting railroaded. But it sounds like you were making noise… [35:04] MM: August 1st, 1996 you’re both convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced for sixty years. Did either of you think the truth would ever come out? [37:88] MM: Sean, what happened to your 911 call that you placed? [39:25] Sean’s case was a topic of discourse at a convention, which sparked the interest of several lawyers. [42:47] MM: The witness who claimed you guys were guilty of murder died of breast cancer, but her friends came forward and told her you were innocent… [45:58] MM: February 11th, 2020, you walk out of prison. What was that feeling like? [47:38] MM: Kevin, where are you at? What are you doing now? [48:16] MM: Sean, what about you? [49:59] MM: Have either of you been compensated by the state of New Jersey? [51:11] MM: What would you like other wrongfully convicted people to know? [53:45] You need to advocate for your rights if you believe you’re innocent. No one will change the way the law is interpreted unless people stand up for the truth — even when the truth is being challenged. [54:41] MM: Thank you both for your message and for urging our viewers to stay awake. Appreciate you both. Thank you for sharing your stories. [55:13] MM: Thank you for watching and listening Open Mike. Another tragedy, and the state won’t compensate them. It’s unbelievable. It’s the same, old stuff. It’s frustrating and heartbreaking. We appreciate you for being part of our community. We’ll see you next time.   

In April of 1989, teenage mother Sabrina Butler experienced every parent’s worst nightmare when her nine-month-old son Walter suddenly stopped breathing. Despite her intense resuscitation efforts, Walter was pronounced dead at the hospital. Sabrina was then subjected to interrogation by twelve police officers and three detectives — without an attorney present — only to be charged with capital murder and sentenced to death. After years of appeals and assembling a new, internationally renowned defense team, Sabrina was exonerated in 1995, becoming America’s first female death row survivor. Sabrina now serves on the board of Witness to Innocence, empowering other death row survivors to raise their voices and eradicate the practice of capital punishment, once and for all. Why was a perfect storm of poverty, overt racism, oppression allowed to yield the death sentence of a minor? How do we compel our leaders and citizens to contend with the realities of a fatally flawed criminal justice system? Watch this stirring episode of Open Mike to find out. Show Notes [00:01] Background of Sabrina Butler Smith’s case and her horrific experience in the legal system. [02:21] Welcome to the show, Sabrina. Your story is chilling, and I’m honored you’re here. Let’s jump in. This started with the tragic death of your son Walter and turned into a greater tragedy when you were charged with his murder as a teen. Tell us what happened! [06:26] Sabrina, was your son healthy up until this point? And he had his regular shots and pediatrician up until this moment? He never had any broken bones or was treated for any injuries? [07:22] You’re at the hospital, and there are doctors and nurses working on Walter… and you’re panicking because you think you’re in trouble for having left him alone and returned to him in this state… and then what happened? [07:51] What were the lies you were telling? [08:48] Doctors and nurses were asking Sabrina many situationally related questions while she was holding the body of her child, i.e. in a state of extreme distress where she was not in the right mind to provide accurate responses. She was then taken to the police station where asked questions, only to be released. The next day, Sabrina returned to the hospital where she was once again taken to the police station where she was aggressively interrogated/intimidated for four hours. [11:11] So, when you were being interrogated at the police station, did you know your baby had already passed or were you still waiting to hear about his condition? [11:53] The police read Sabrina, a minor, her Miranda Rights but didn’t understand implications of its language, including misinterpreting her right to remain silent as, “don’t speak until spoken to.” [12:38] Eventually, you signed a confession… explain how that happened. What did you confess to? [13:24] Sabrina didn’t learn of Walter’s cause of death until her second trial. She wasn’t allowed to plan or participate in a funeral and didn’t even learn of his burial place until two years after her release. [14:10] Can you tell us about how you got your first attorneys? [14:35] Sabrina didn’t meet her trial attorneys until two days prior to the first court date. In 1989, court appointed attorneys were receiving a mere $1,000 per capital case. There was no jury of her peers, no witnesses were called, and she believes her attorney was drunk. [16:54] Do you remember how many days this trial was? You say you knew deep in your heart you were getting railroaded in this trial… [18:28] What did the jury look like, were they all-white? [18:53] The woman who had helped you administer CPR the night Walter passed was in the court room, and your drunk defense attorney didn’t have the thought to put her on the stand… how does that happen? You must have wanted to scream at the court room. [20:06] The jury came back, you’re sitting in the court room, and they find you guilty of capital murder. What’s going through your head? [21:23] Did your defense attorneys ever participate in a hearing where they advocated for you not being out to death? What was life like in prison, on death row? [23:10] Much of what Sabrina learned about legal proceedings was from her cellmate, not her lawyers. Her legal team kept her in the dark. [23:30] Thank God for that woman being with you… can you tell us about the appeal process? [24:17] It looks like, two years later, your new lawyer Clive Stafford Smith and his team convinced the state supreme court that the state prosecution improperly commented at trial on your decision not to testify — which is unconstitutional. That’s something you learn on day one of law school. Do you remember what the prosecutor said about that at trial? [25:12] You get granted a new trial and are now sitting on death row for three years? Did any of your attorneys try to get you out on bond? [25:58] Before we get to the second trial, tell me about your family, your first child, what the dynamics of support are like for you during this time. [26:45] Sabrina’s mother became her biggest advocate, appearing in the news, even becoming homeless in her quest to let everyone know what the state of Mississippi was doing to her daughter. [27:02] Let’s talk about the second trial… were you more optimistic for this second trial with your new defense team? [27:46] Did either of your first two defense attorneys get disciplined, as far as you know? [28:27] How was the second trial different from the first one? [28:50] Clive discovered Walter’s death was caused by nephrotic syndrome, which Sabrina’s daughter also has. Walter also had heart problems and Irritable Bowel Syndrome, which caused peritonitis, inability to defecate, and ultimately led to his death by robbing him of oxygen. An autopsy had previously been conducted by the state but was completely inadequate and inept. [31:07] Were there any witnesses called at your second trial? [31:42] Sabrina didn’t need to take the stand in the second trial because her new legal team had provided such an immense quantity of evidence. [31:58] Was the jury makeup any better during this second trial? [32:17] It took just one hour for the jury to deliver her innocence verdict. [32:44] You did have an expert witness on the second trial? [34:32] It sounds like these are night-and-day trials… were you more confident going into this second trial? [35:28] We’ve done several wrongfully convicted episodes and, Sabrina, your story goes to show how important it is to have good lawyering. They should be teaching your story in law school! This is 101. And the communication you’re talking about goes to show how important it is.   [36:16] You’re acquitted, I can imagine you’re elated to get out of prison after six-and-a-half years. What did those first steps outside feel like? [38:11] The state granted you $300,000… how did you feel about that? [38:30] How hard was it reacclimating to society after this ordeal? [39:45] Tell the viewers and listeners… how is your life now? [40:09] You mentioned you’re doing speaking and making appearances on podcasts like this… and you also have a website you’re involved with. Can you tell us about that? [41:45] Sabrina is also working on a tell-all book called Exonerated: The Sabrina Butler Story that’s currently in its completion stages.   [42:34] You’re actually talking to state legislators and working on death penalty reform. Can you tell us about that? [43:12] You’re also on the board of Witness to Innocence, which empowers death row survivors to help overturn the death penalty in the United States… [44:26] We’ve done some episodes on Shaken Baby Syndrome (Abusive Head Trauma) cases… your case kind of falls under that category, do you agree? [45:56] Sabrina is the first woman in the United States to be exonerated from death row. [46:10] Editor’s note: Julie Baumer’s nephew did not die from his medical condition and is still alive to this day. [46:56] Sabrina is also attempting to start a halfway house for female exonerees and ex-offenders in Memphis, Tennessee because, while there are plenty of programs for men, there are few available for females. [49:03] The last question I have for you is… what is your message for people sitting behind bars who know they are innocent? How do you inspire hope in them? [49:48] I think those are perfect words to end on. Sabrina Butler Smith, thank you for so much for being on Open Mike and sharing your story with us. [50:17] That was emotional, another crazy exoneree story from a really beautiful woman, Sabrina Butler Smith. Thank you for watching and listening. Send this to someone who needs to hear it. Donate to Witness to Innocence and her website. Thank you for being here for Open Mike.

Sex sting busts are often regarded as heroic acts justice, but the ethics surrounding them aren't necessarily clear-cut. When a police set-up resulted in the incarceration of Kathleen Hambrick’s son, she claimed fraud due to a series of misleading interactions that equated to entrapment. Four years after his arrest, the Hambricks find themselves in legal limbo, having appealed the initial conviction, only to be recharged. Throughout their ordeal, Kathleen has come to believe these police-run stings involve a state-funded incentive which compels law enforcement to violate the Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force and make criminals out of law-abiding citizens to turn a profit. Corruption within law enforcement isn’t uncommon — can we take their words at face value? Should there be alternative consequences for sex offenders who haven’t committed a physical crime against another person? How do amateur sex sting operations complicate this already convoluted dynamic? Show Notes [00:21] Background of Jace Hambrick’s case and his mother, Kathleen Hambrick. [01:34] Welcome to the show, Kathleen! [01:41] I know you’ve seen some of our previous episodes with Chris Hansen, CC Unit, and Anxiety Wars… I appreciated your email and feedback, and that’s why we’re having you on! Those who like the show and have different points of view, please contact me — I never would have gotten to meet Kathleen had she not contacted me. [02:11] Kathleen, can you tell us about your son and how he grew up a little different from most kids in terms of social interaction and online dating? [03:05] So at twenty years old he was living at home and had a job. Tell us what happened to him with the sex sting by undercover police. [03:35] Kathleen’s son Jace went to an 18+ portion of Craigslist looking for a hook-up with another consenting adult, under the assumption that everyone else on there was an adult. [04:11] Can you clarify one point? When you say Jace doesn’t pick up on red flags, what do you mean by that? [04:45] Jace had previously been in Naval boot camp, but they wouldn’t accept him, despite his high degree of intelligence, due to his ADHD. [05:23] Back to the Craigslist story… he thought he was meeting an adult — what happened next? [06:00] The person Jace was interacting with said she was 13. He thought it may have been a type and she meant to type “23” instead. When he attempted to clarify, she said, “I like college guys.” [06:25] He didn’t believe her? Or he thought he misread something and continued the conversation? [07:06] Jace asked for a picture she was sent a picture of a 24-year-old woman, which he interprets as the truth. He believes she’s a 24-year-old pretending to cosplay as a 13-year-old. They proceed to talk explicitly and decide to meet.   [09:03] An hour-and-a-half later, where did they meet, what kind of place? [09:45] Jace goes to the woman’s residence and she comes out and beckons him to come in. She is the same woman in the pictures she sent. He walks into the house and gets arrested. [10:38] At the time of the arrest, the woman from the picture was 26-years-old. In the picture, she was 24. [10:52] So the police had her online as a sting operation… they walk into this house and immediately arrest him? [11:33] Did your son try explaining the situation to the police who arrested him? [11:46] Did the police check his criminal history for child porn and other elicit activity? [12:56] So what happened when he went through the legal system? [13:25] They went to trial, reluctantly did a bench trial to avoid getting a jury involved, and he was convicted. They then appealed, stating they didn’t agree to a bench trial, and the verdict was overturned after Jace spent a year-and-a-half in prison. Since then, he’s been recharged and has to go back to trial. [14:54] Does your lawyer know you’re publicly talking about this stuff? [15:34] When was Jace’s trial? Can you provide a timeline of how this panned out? [15:58] And the prosecutors are still going after him… what was his original sentence? [16:18] He’s already served his eighteen months… so I’m confused as to why they want to retry him! [16:37] You recently told Jace’s story on the Dr. Phil Show. I haven’t seen that episode but tell us about your experience on that show. [19:27] Kathleen asserts that these sting operations get money from the federal government for every arrest and prosecution, regardless of whether the accusations are true. [20:06] If the picture of had been of this police officer when she was thirteen, would you feel differently? [21:27] There’s a huge difference between amateur sting operations doing this type of activity versus police doing it. These amateurs we’ve had on the show believe they’re doing the right things and busting potential abusers. But the difference in legality is quite drastic. Can you tell us what you think is wrong with these amateur “vigilantes?” [26:09] I assume you’ll be going for a jury trial this time. Is there a trial date set? Have there been any plea offers to try and resolve this case? [28:08] Have you ever seen To Catch a Predator, back in the day? What do you see wrong with those? [29:00] I’ve seen the Chris Hansen shows and I believe, and a lot of other people believe, that these people are showing up for a sexual encounter with a minor. And they’re busted. And a lot of them admit it on the show! Do you think that’s entrapment of people who shouldn’t be caught? [30:41] What’s your message to these amateur sting operations that blow the whistle on people they think are committing crimes? [31:19] Do you think all sex stings by the police should be stopped? [32:05] I appreciate you sharing your point of view! Thank you for reaching out, and best of luck to you and your son. [32:24] There you have it! A different point of view on this issue. Let us know your perspective — which side are you on? And why? Look forward to hearing your comments. Please like and share the episode! Thanks for being here — we’ll see you next time.

Robert Riggs is Peabody Award-winning journalist and digital media entrepreneur, widely regarded as one of the nation’s top investigative journalists. In his new podcast, Free to Kill, he exposes the rampant, deadly corruption that has come to poison many parole board systems across the country. In a disturbingly increasing trend, many parole boards let out vicious killers who go on to commit new crimes while refusing to parole the wrongfully convicted, simply because they do not admit to their crimes or show remorse. This episode of Open Mike sees Robert discussing the most heinous crimes he’s covered throughout his storied career, reflecting on ways parole boards have failed those they claim to protect, and examining the intersection of wrongful convictions and deceitful parole boards. Show Notes [00:19] Welcome to Open Mike, Episode 101! [00:46] Robert Riggs’s background and bio.   [01:23] Welcome to Open Mike, Robert Riggs!  Robert is one of the country's top investigative reporters. You've been on CBS Evening, Evening News, CBS 60 minutes ABC nightline, as well as local stations. Tell me about some of the hot stories you broke or covered as an investigative reporter. [01:50] Robert tells the story of serial killer Kenneth McDuff who, enabled by political corruption, essentially bought himself parole and continued a killing spree. [03:14] You’ve done reporting on parole boards before, with Free to Kill… what did you discover about parole boards? [05:51] They want people to admit their guilt, take responsibility. It feels like that's the only litmus test to whether or not they're going to get out… If someone is innocent, and they keep proclaiming their innocence, there's no way they're going to get paroled. Do you think that's true?   [06:48] We cover a lot of wrongful convictions on Open Mike, and there as estimations that tens of thousands of innocent people are locked up. Some of the people we’ve interviewed have gotten a break because of an investigative journalist, like yourself. What's your sense? Do you think that there is a enough journalists covering these types of wrongful convictions or potentially wrongful convictions? To expose this this tragic injustice? [09:20] Case after case that we cover…it comes down to a bad court-appointed attorney who pushes deals on innocent clients because they have too many cases, or they don't have enough time to do all the work. It feels like that should be a national story, but I think you just answered the question why we're never going to see a big story about this. [13:02] Have you ever sat through a trial or covered a trial, where you've heard about so-called scientific evidence on bite marks, or Shaken Baby Syndrome, or even arson cases, that just didn't make sense? [14:46] As we're talking about reporting… what we see in a lot of our cases here in Michigan, are that the police and prosecutors are lying. They hide exculpatory evidence to kick convictions and have crazy tunnel vision. Why isn't the media all over this? You might have already answered my question that it's budget cuts. But it’s just mind blowing to me that the public doesn't know what's happening. [17:34] On true crime reporter you started talking a little bit about this five-part series… what can you tell us about one of the crazy cases that you've covered on that? [21:02] Robert tells the story of Annie Laurie Williams who, in 1955, murdered and dismembered her two young sons. She was imprisoned, but then released by the Texas parole board after 25 years served, started a new life in Idaho where she likely killed a widower and took over his social security benefits. [23:13] How the heck did they let this woman out for such a heinous crime? [23:26] One of the problems is that the parole files in the prison files are secret. It's against the law to make them public. In Robert’s case, he developed the sources and they started leaking information about corruption to him at their own legal risk. [24:14] True Crime Reporter podcast is available on all your favorite podcast apps, so be sure to check it out! [26:16] On that note, Robert, Peabody Award-winning investigative reporter, I really loved having you on the show. I love hearing these stories. They're mind blowing to me, and we're going to check out your podcast today. I'm going to go check it out today. Thanks for being on Open Mike. And thanks for doing what you do, and keep exposing all this crazy stuff out there. [28:06] I am literally going to subscribe to that podcast right now. Hope you enjoyed that episode. Like it, share it, comment, tell us what else you want to hear. And we will bring it to you here on Open Mike. That was Episode 101. I can't believe we are over 100. But thank you for your support. Thank you for sharing the episodes as you do. And I'll see you next time.  

Open Mike has made it to triple-digits! On our landmark, 100th installment, Mike reunites with three former guest exonerees, Aaron Salter, Julie Baumer, and Kenny Wyniemko, as well as two journalists who have been blazing a path to illuminate the wrongful conviction crisis, Kevin Dietz and Bill Proctor. In this groundbreaking centenary episode, our guests reflect on their detestable experiences in the criminal justice system, update us on their current initiatives and whereabouts, and offer us their opinions on the future of the justice reform movement amidst a still-divided political climate. Plus… Mike provides a development on his own plans to dive headfirst into the arena of justice reform. Show Notes  [00:01] Mike Morse: Well first, let me start out by saying thank you for everyone being here. It's a trip down memory lane. Seeing all your faces, Julie and Aaron and Kenny and Bill and Kevin Dietz, celebrating our 100th episode… I didn't think we would get here. When I started the podcast, it was just kind of out of fun. And I wanted to learn, and I wanted to do something because podcasts were all the rage. I never thought we’d get to 100 podcasts. The fact that you guys are here to help me celebrate 100 is very meaningful to me. The fact that my producers just told me that we're over 3 million downloads and listens. That's rare. When I started this podcast, we didn't know which direction fully it was going to go. And when I first met Aaron Salter, Episode 32, and Aaron told me his story, I remember the emotions, I remember the sadness, I remember the shock. Being a lawyer, 28 years handling only civil cases… that this was happening in our justice system was outrageous to me. And then meeting Kenny and Julie and several others, it really did affect me, it really did change me. And at the end of this podcast, I'm going to make an announcement, I'm going to tell you guys something that I haven't told many people. All of your sharing, and courage, and love that you've shown me… and the fact that we are now friends, we talk, we have lunch, we text each other, we help each other — it’s changed my life for the better. And it's meaningful to me, and the fact that it's only been a year and a half that I didn't think this was coming. And then I'm still growing up as an attorney and learning things about the law, which I admit I think is pretty cool. So, I thank Kevin Dietz for introducing me to this stuff, because I was probably your idea to have Aaron on, and introducing me to these amazing people has changed my life. And to be quite honest, it’s changed my family's life. I have three daughters, two of them are in college, and they are watching our episodes. They were both social work, social work, education majors, and now they're talking to me about social justice classes. They're talking to me about law school. And I think it's because of the three of you, and Bill, and others. I wasn't even planning on talking about that, but that's true. I mean, I was sitting with my freshmen last night looking at her classes, and she was looking at social justice and criminal reform and classes like that. It's hard to turn away, it's hard to not want to learn more and hear more. [02:56] MM: So, saying all that, I'm going to start with Aaron Salter. And Aaron, your story is amazing, heartbreaking. Scary that it could happen to such a nice young man who was, you know, won a partial college scholarship on his way to Arkansas. And the fact that this happened to you, I'd like you to tell our listeners and viewers who maybe didn't see Episode 32 a little bit about what happened you starting in 2003?   [05:01] In 2003, Aaron was with his cousin when a drug deal went awry, and his cousin was shot twelve times — and survived. The person who shot Aaron’s cousin shot another person three days later, and Aaron was misidentified as the perpetrator. [05:21] MM: Where were you when you were arrested? You were at a family member's house? [07:21] Aaron Salter: From the very beginning, a female named Joanne Thomas, the deceased’s sister, actually stood up in court and said she knew I didn’t kill her brother, that the person who killed him was a guy named E. Everybody should have been stepping up to be like, “Well, okay, I knew there are holes in this case, I know that testimony is powerful.” There is no way that I should have still gone to prison. Like that should have been a wake-up call for somebody, somewhere to be like, Okay, well, maybe we rushed this. But they didn't do it. [08:26] Kevin Dietz: And then you end up in prison. Did you realize at some point, “Wow, innocent people end up in prison, this happens in real life?” [9:03] KD: What was the key to getting out, what was the turning point? [9:06] AS: Man, the turning point was when my when my federal defender team actually submitted an application to the conviction integrity unit. And when they did that, I was out within like 30 to 60 days. [09:26] MM: Refresh our memories —what was the smoking gun that that the conviction integrity unit, hung their hat on to finally allow you out? [10:35] MM: Prosecution withheld your mugshot from defense until the conviction integrity unit was just able to access it from the evidence room. Why didn’t they want you to have thar? [10:39] AS: Because for one my whole claim was suggestive identification. [10:55] MM: Didn't your height and weight not add up to a witness? Weren't there witness identifications that were skinnier and shorter? [11:50] MM: You were also in prison with the man who actually committed the crime, is that true? [12:53] AS: Absolutely. I was in a prison with him. He wrote a letter to my attorney saying that he’ll be able to help me if I can assign some type of contract to compensate him for a statement. But my attorney ruled his stuff out — you’re basically putting your testimony for hire man, so that's not even credible. We couldn't even use him if we wanted to… but he reached out to my attorney and everything organically. [14:44] MM: One of the biggest things I've learned over the last year and a half is that if you're paroled in Michigan, for a crime you committed, you have all these wonderful benefits. You get money, you get housing, job help, medical…. But if you're exonerated for a crime you didn't commit, you get nothing. You saw a void in this system, and you bought you use your hard-earned money that you got after your lawsuit. And you bought a house so you could put people up. Tell us a little bit about that. [16:09] MM: A lot of us are wearing or have these pins that I'm showing to the camera: Innocence Maintained: Better not Bitter. Can you tell our listeners and viewers what this is? [16:49] MM: Tell us about this app you’ve created for exonerees — how is it going to help people who are wrongfully convicted? [17:43] The app will be revealed on August 15th at an Exoneree Awards ceremony taking place at the Detroit Yacht Club. [18:17] MM: That’s awesome! Save us a table — we’re coming. We're going to turn to Julie Baumer who's sitting to your right. Julie Baumer, Episode 77 on the Open Mike Show. Julie has another really heartbreaking story. She was arrested for doing the right thing, seeking medical help for her for her sick baby nephew. She was convicted with no evidence of any abuse. Just two doctors testifying about Shaken Baby Syndrome, which we now know is junk science. It's such junk science that they’ve changed the name to Abusive Head Trauma. You had a terrible defense attorney, not presenting any evidence in your first trial to help you. And you had the first case at the Michigan Innocence Clinic in Ann Arbor took that did not involve DNA evidence. So, you are kind of a famous person up there. But tell us a little bit about your story. And for the people who have not heard or seen it. [19:43] Julie Baumer: Basically, my younger sister ended up getting pregnant, it was an unplanned pregnancy. With the support of my family, I chose to do an in-family adoption. After Philip was born, he was hospitalized in the neonatal intensive care unit for about a week. So, we knew that there was going to be some form of complications. We didn't know the extent of it. When he was five weeks old, he basically had a medical breakdown, if you will, because he completely stopped eating. And he just became very lethargic. So of course, I called his pediatrician and, and by direction of his pediatrician, I took him into the ER in Macomb County. The county transferred him down to Children's Hospital where, 24 hours later, he was undergoing brain surgery to relieve pressure in his brain. His brain had swollen. 24 hours after that, I was invited into the sheriff's department to interview. At that point I was I realized that I was a suspect for child abuse. And so immediately, my family and I started our defensive. Initially we went back to the birth, which was traumatic, during which my sister had been given two doses of Pitocin. So, we thought there were some definite issues during the birth. However, several months later, I was formally charged with child abuse first degree. And 18 months later, I was convicted and sentenced to 15 years. [22:06] MM: You actually had two trials… what happened after your first conviction? [22:10] JB: I immediately began the appeal process. After I exhausted all of my appeals by the grace of God, ironically, that same year in 2009, U of M, opened up the non-DNA Innocence Clinic and I was able to get my case heard. I was granted a second trial, where I had several doctors who testified on my behalf that weren't available during my first trial. They clearly stated that there was no crime committed at all. Unfortunately, my nephew had suffered a form of childhood stroke, venous sinus thrombosis. And I was exonerated completely. [23:36] MM: How long were you in prison? [23:45] MM: Thank God you had good attorneys for after the second trial. You’ve been out ten years — can you give us an update on your life? What are you doing these days? [24:09] JB: I've nestled myself into a nice little community where I work as a realtor. And to fill some void and give my part back, I indulged in several service clubs, and do a lot of volunteer work. [24:38] MM: Well, thank you for sharing your story again with us today. All the details, Julie Baumer, Episode 77, on the Open Mike Show. And last but not least, Kenny Wyniemko one of the craziest stories I think anybody could ever hear. We did two episodes on Kenny, 45 and 50. As I'm interviewing more people, getting myself into this world, your story almost checks all the boxes of what could go wrong in one of these types of cases. Starting with, dirty cops, a jailhouse snitch, a corrupt prosecutor, a bad judge. On and on — and that's probably why Netflix did a whole show on you. That's probably why you have this fabulous book that your friend Bob wrote about you, Deliberate Injustice. Kenny, I think about your story all the time, as I do with all the stories. You're also you're wearing your Innocence Project shirt, which will tell us about… For the viewers who have not seen our four plus hours on you, why don't you give us a couple minutes on what happened to you? [26:31] Kenny Wyniemko: Well, first of all, Mike, thank you for the kind words. It's always a pleasure being with you and my fellow exonerees. What happened to me unfortunately, I was arrested in 1994, and charged 10 weeks after this rape happened. And at the time that rape happened, it was a big story in the Detroit Free Press, The Detroit News, Macomb Daily, our local paper. And I remember reading about the rape and thinking to myself that, no one should have to go through that. No way. July 14th, 10 weeks later, I was arrested and charged with 15 counts of Criminal Sexual Conduct, one count of Breaking and Entering, and one count of Armed Robbery… [34:41] MM: It’s a good story, and it leads into why you think you were behind bars for so many years. What was your next encounter with the Clinton Township police? [35:19] On July 14th, 1994, Kenny was awoken by a woman in a business suit asking if he was Kenny Wyniemko. When he responded affirmatively, she moved aside, and four police officers rushed into his living room, pinned him down, handcuffed him, and took him to the Macomb County police department to be identified in a lineup. He had no idea what they were talking about, requested to call an attorney, and was denied. Kenny was put in a lineup, but ultimately released from the station. When he returned home to shower, a plain clothes police officer refused to let Kenny in until the police had a search warrant, pulling a gun on Kenny and pointing it at his head. Kenny went to his parents to shower and, upon his return, found that his house had been ransacked by the police and unnecessarily vandalized. The next day, he returned home after going to the grocery store to replace broken items and was met by eight police — some with sawed-off shotguns — who stated he had been identified in the previous day’s lineup and was under arrest. [42:48] MM: As you’re talking, I'm now remembering why we spent so many hours with you — because you're a damn good storyteller. For those of you who are interested, Episodes  45 and 50 have so many twists and turns. For those of you who want to hear more, be sure to check out those episodes. Now, I want to turn to now is your work with Innocence Project. [43:58] KW: Well, this project is responsible for my release! I was still locked up in prison and I happened to see Barry Scheck on Phil Donahue Show talking about how he's working with DNA that would prove someone's guilt or innocence. So, I wrote to him with a packet of the facts surrounding my case, asking for help. About five months later, he wrote back saying that the information sounded serious. However, he had a backlog of about 4,000 cases… that was the bad news. The good news was they were going to open up a private Innocence Project at Cooley Law School in Lansing. I was their first case and they got me out. [45:20] MM: You told me before we started filming today that you were the second person in Michigan and the 129th person in the country to be granted a DNA release? [45:34] KW: In Michigan, we're up to 130, but nationwide, as of last Friday, we’re up to 2,755. It’s still just the tip of the iceberg, and that’s why I’m proud to be part of Proving Innocence with Bill Proctor. There’s no more worthy cause in the world. [46:05] MM: We're hearing about people getting out every week, which is an amazing, amazing thing. I want to turn to Bill Proctor now, who was kind enough to come on Open Mike Episode 51. Bill works tirelessly for wrongfully convicted people. He's a member of the Michigan Broadcasters Hall of Fame, and the founder of Proving Innocence. Today he runs Seeking Justice, currently on the trail of Who Killed Shannon Siders, which is an amazing website… Bill, thank you for coming to the show today. Tell me how you got involved fighting for the wrongfully convicted. [47:00] Bill Proctor: I was lucky enough to have an almost 40-year career in television and was a reporter, anchor. But had a private investigator in 1994 bring me a case out of Port Huron. This was a strange situation where a college student was murdered in broad daylight on a community college in 1986. Well, lots of twists and turns brought the police to a fella named Frederick Thomas Freeman. And Mr. Freeman had the misfortune of dating, for maybe two weeks, the girlfriend/fiancé of the murder victim. While the police looked at his general level of misconduct, that never indicated something so serious as to felony level. He wrote a couple of bad checks, drove a motorcycle without a license, those kinds of silly things. But he was just kind of an arrogant tough guy who thought he was God's gift to women. Bottom line is they put together a case that to this day is the most ridiculous presentation you've ever seen in your life that essentially convicted an innocent man. That was in 1986, for the trial. I took on the case 1994- 95 and was among the first reporters in the state of Michigan to essentially step out in a big way to present an actual innocence claim. The claim was extremely strong with a jailhouse snitch who got rewarded to make statements about what he heard in a jail cell that Freeman allegedly said girls who claimed that he was some sort of ninja master who could levitate himself from one another room to another that kind of thing, throwing stars all this kind of stuff. And the real bottom line was, this was a shot gun murder in broad daylight on the college campus. Freeman, with all of his martial arts prowess, could have snapped this neck quietly and walked away with no problem. That didn't happen. This, we strongly believe today, had to do with drugs, mayoral connection to drug dealers, corruption, and bad actors. What I learned from that case, from a private investigator, is that there are so many elements of a trial that can misrepresent the truth… [50:36] MM: And this person is still sitting in prison today, right? [51:10] BP: The list that you've heard from your guests, the list of the tens of thousands of cases that have been examined by a number of innocence projects around the country, have come down to a very comprehensive, constant evaluation of the problem of wrongful conviction in America. Six, seven, maybe eight specific reasons for all of them…. The list is long. It's difficult, Michael, and yes, the entire country needs to know that this is more than a notion more than a TV show. More than a television series. These are people whose lives and the lives of their families are ruined by bad work in the criminal justice system. [54:03] MM: And from all accounts. Bill, you are helping so many people you're working as a private investigator trying to get people out. I know what good work you do. I've seen it. The new the new case that you're working on is very compelling. Do you want to tell a little bit about that and direct people to that website so they can so we can let the world know what's happening? [58:03] KW: Bill was talking about eyewitness misidentification being a leading cause. It is the leading cause of wrongful convictions. And if you look at the facts, amongst the exonerees, all of us are throughout the country, the eyewitness identification has been proven wrong 78% of the time. 78%. That's scary numbers. [58:56] Mike, Aaron, Julie, Kenny, spend time comparing multiple identical factors that contributed to their wrongful convictions: poor defense attorneys, aggressive prosecuting attorneys, tunnel vision, eyewitness errors, bad forensic science, perjury, and official misconduct. [1:01:18] MM: We’ve done six or seven wrongful exonerees interviews. And the thing that amazes me is the perception of how bitter you all should be. But you have found the spirit to work hard and help others who are left behind in these exact situations. You've started nonprofits, you've been vocal about injustice, you lecture, you help pass laws. So, I want you to all tell me why? Why do you feel the way do you do? How do you keep a positive attitude? And why are you trying to help others? [1:04:54] MM: A key to the future in this fight for justice is awareness, education, breaking down the stigma associated with being an exoneree. Tell me about how your family, friends, and even strangers treated you after you got released from prison. [1:08:04] MM: Bill, I want to ask you — how do we keep the pressure up on those in the justice system to prioritize freeing innocent people over putting people away?   [1:08:23] BP: At this stage in the country, we have a serious problem. Because at one point, you might be able to get everyone elected to a legislature to sit around a table, listen to suggestions, and walk down a road of some reasonable compromise. I'm sorry, Mike, I don't think it's going to happen now. I think the lunatic in the White House for four years, his year before, and his continued effect on this population means that not enough people of reason, open mind, and open hearts will sit at a table and make changes in laws. I just need to remind everybody that what happens in the criminal justice system is essentially a wonderfully written set of laws and rules and processes and procedures. But we forget that people administer those laws. People have human failures. People do things that they're not supposed to do under law, or even in ethical or moral practice. I really don't know where we start, Mike. But everybody should know that. Yes. Not only do wrongful convictions happen, but they can be prevented. And yes, if somebody is telling you and insisting from the very beginning at trial or charges that they didn't do it, every single friend that's possible needs to step up and listen and try to help before the conviction takes place. [1:09:50] MM: You would think that all of the news that's being made about wrongful convictions, and the integrity units, and podcasts like this with 3 million eyeballs on them… that people will start getting the message…. My hope is that if there are people out there who have said things to police that aren't true, that they will come forward and say, “You know what, I might have made a mistake.” And I know that takes courage. And I encourage people to gather that courage because you have beautiful souls who are sitting in prison for crimes they didn't commit. Thousands of people around this country that need the truth to be told. And I want to thank you all again, for being here. I want to thank you for sharing your stories, because I know it's not easy. And I want to tell the three of you that after hearing your stories, and learning from Bill, and watching the movies and reading your books, that the Mike Morse Law Firm has decided to put — lack of a better word — our money where our mouth is, our energy where our mouth is. And we have taken on a case of a man that, I believe, did not get a fair trial on a Shaken Baby Syndrome case. A man who's sitting in prison for life and did not get a fair trial. He had a terrible defense attorney, there was not one expert witness called against eight expert witnesses by the state. And I am working hard with a team of lawyers here at the Mike Morse Law Firm to get this man a new trial. This is probably one of the hardest things that my firm has ever done. I am doing it because of you three. You have encouraged me. Throughout it, Bill, you have helped me, and we've had several conversations about taking cases like this. And because this man did not have the quality attorney that he should have, we are going to fight as hard as we know how to get this man a new trial. We will share more details in the coming months. We are in the midst of it right now, getting the evidence, talking to experts, putting together a brief… I'm nervous about it. You get one shot at a 6500 motion, as you guys all know. And I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. And I just wanted you guys to hear it first.  [1:13:07] KW: Mike, God bless you. I wish that there were more attorneys like you that take the time to help when you see something wrong. You try to right it. I think that's what all of us do. And the bottom line is — all anybody ever wants when it comes to the justice system is the truth. So, I take my hat off to you. I commend you. May God bless you. [1:13:28] AS: Mike. I just want to say one thing, man. I really respect you for doing that. Because when I was in prison, the only thing I wanted was for somebody to pick up my case and help me. So that's real commendable, man. And it's a lot of work, but I know you can do it. [1:13:50] MM: You know what, Aaron, it wouldn't happen had you not come on my show. Or had you guys not introduced me to Dave Moran up at the Innocence Clinic. So, lots of things happen and wouldn't happen if Kevin Dietz, my good friend, didn't suggest we do these episodes on Open Mike. You know, I feel emotional about it. I'm excited about it. I'm nervous about it. I can't believe that we've done 100 episodes! We have gifts for you all that we're going to give you as well. And thanks again for being here.

For nearly two decades, Chris Mumma has served as the Executive Director of the North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence, having represented 8 exonorees and fighting for a half a dozen more still behind bars. During her impressive tenure, she has forced legislation on multiple issues regarding wrongful convictions and established the only innocence inquiry commission in the United States. Instrumental in fighting for criminal justice reform in North Carolina, Mumma has spearheaded legislation on eyewitness identification, the recording of interrogations, preservation of biological evidence, and enhanced support for exonerees. On the latest installment of Open Mike, Mumma recounts her most troubling case to date, highlights the Center’s upcoming initiatives, and reflects on the future of American criminal justice reform. Show Notes [00:21] Chris Mumma’s background as Executive Director of the North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence. [01:15] Welcome to the show, Chris! Could you tell our viewers how you got started in the fight for justice for the wrongfully convicted? [02:20] You’ve had quite the career! Over the years, you’ve identified several reoccurring problems that are consistent in wrongful convictions. Let’s start with eyewitness identification… I read that you’ve been able to create some new legislation in North Carolina that I’d love to hear about. [03:31] Misidentification is a first step that leads down wrong paths. It’s a beginning factor that can lead to false confessions, tunnel vision, and faulty forensics — it branches out into other causation issues. We’re also implicitly more comfortable identifying the features of those who bear our racial and genetic similarities. [05:01] When you talk about changes made to lineup identification… what is the difference between sequential and simultaneous identification? [06:54] Do you know how many other states have also made these changes? North Carolina was the first, you said? [08:03] Was lineup identification the only aspect of witness identification that was reformed? [08:44] It’s so interesting — every time I do an episode, I probably say this — wrongful convictions are so similar. Wrongful convictions follow a playbook. [09:41] We’re so accustomed to being recorded everywhere… the ATM, walking down the street, grocery stores… yet many law enforcement offices don’t record what happens behind their closed doors. How can this be, especially when dealing with matters that affect someone’s life? [09:51] Are they recording lineups now? [11:34] I know you’ve been instrumental in getting some laws regarding preservation of biological evidence passed in North Carolina… What were the existing procedures, and how were you able to get them to change? [13:35] The one case that really combines all of these elements we’re discussing is the Willie Grimes case. All exonerations are tragic… this one in particular is extremely hard to read about — the mistreatment, the corruption, the fraud. I’d love for you to set it up for our audience. [15:01] The book Ghost of an Innocent Man covers Grimes’s ordeal in detail. [19:01] Isn’t this the case where the victim falsely identified the defense attorney in court as her assailant? [19:50] In most wrongful conviction cases, an awful defense attorney is involved. Can you tell me about his attorney at trial? [23:41] In a rape there’s a lot of biological evidence… was there any testing conducted in the rape kit in this case? [27:43] Was the fingerprint evidence at the scene of the crime actually used in the trial? [28:55] This inquiry commission to search law enforcement’s files was very innovative. How did they get involved and accomplish this? [31:33] Of the 22 cases investigated by the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission, there was evidence reported as being destroyed or lost in 11 cases. [33:26] Is the Innocence Inquiry Commission run by the state? [33:49] Are there conviction integrity units in your jurisdiction? [37:05] How many cases are you working on? And I’m curious about your impression… how many people in North Carolina do you think are wrongfully behind bars right now? [38:28] A lot of the people I’ve interviewed and files I’ve read are about older cases… Do you think with the changes that are being made that things are getting better with the wrongful conviction crisis? [39:52] Most wrongful convictions the culture discusses are about felonies, but wrongful misdemeanor convictions are exponentially higher. [40:48] Until we have a culture shift at the top — with law enforcement and prosecutors — progress won’t accelerate the way we need it to. [42:02] Keep up the great work and all the wonderful things you’re accomplishing. Christina Mumma, thank you for being on the show and helping to educate the public that wrongful convictions are real, and prevalent, and everywhere. Thank you for being on the show. [42:45] Going down this path of wrongful convictions, I can’t believe this is still happening. It’s mind-blowing that Chris even has 135 cases to work on. If you know someone is sitting in prison for a crime they didn’t commit, step up. Find the courage and tell someone in law enforcement or at a prosecutor’s office. What is worse than sitting in prison for a crime you didn’t commit? Thank you for watching — make sure to like, share, subscribe, and comment. We have our 100th episode coming up soon, and you won’t want to miss it! Thank you and take care.

On December 2nd, 1999, Timothy Cole died of an asthma attack while in prison for a sexual assault he didn’t commit. Stunned by the injustice of the loss, his brother Cory vowed to clear his brother’s name and ensure such a tragedy never befall anyone else. His family, joined by the victim and the Texas Innocence Project, successfully overturned Tim’s conviction on February 6, 2009, becoming the state of Texas’s first posthumous exoneration. Today, Cory is the Vice President of the Texas Innocence Project, drawing upon his experiences to lobby for progressive, statewide justice reform. Tune in to this moving installment of Open Mike for updates on the Innocence Project’s current initiatives and how Tim’s family is faring these days. Show Notes [00:30] Background of Cory Session, Vice President of Texas’s Innocence Project, and context of his brother Timothy Cole’s wrongful conviction and asthma attack death while behind bars. [01:04] Cory, welcome to Open Mike. I hate meeting under these circumstances, but I know it’s your life’s mission, talking about your brother and Innocence Projects… you’ve worked tirelessly to free wrongful convictions — can you set the stage for our viewers on why? [03:20] This ended up being a high-profile case… a white woman being allegedly raped by a Black man, a series of serial sexual assaults that started before he even got to campus… why don’t you tell us some of the basic issues that happened within the case and doomed Timothy’s chance at a fair trial? [7:07] Testimonial from the survivor stated that her assailant kept smoking cigarettes and she would pocket the butts, thinking they would be useful as evidence. Timothy was a severe asthmatic and couldn’t smoke — information that was not told to her by police. [08:12] Another rape occurred, and Tim was identified as the rapist… which is impossible, because he was not even in the same geographic region and had an alibi. [09:48] Tim refused a plea deal for two years of probation, because he refused to admit to a crime he didn’t do. [11:48] Every time Tim’s defense attorney mentioned the name of a suspect who later ended up being guilty, the judge threatened to hold him in contempt. [12:15] He was convicted and ultimately sentenced to 25 years in prison. [15:28] On December 3rd, Tim’s family was notified that he had passed away in prison the previous day. [21:46] While Tim was in prison, he still remained in close contact with his family, with multiple visits. And maintained his innocence, hoping for eventual exoneration. [22:59] A lot of these cases have bad lawyering, but it doesn’t sound like that here. It sounds like Tim had a horrible prosecutor and judge. It’s shocking how this jury came to this result. I know there was DNA evidence back during this time — none of which could have matched your brother and matched someone else. [24:32] Was it argued at trial that your brother couldn’t smoke cigarettes? [25:12] Fast forwarding a little bit to the wonderful changes you and your family were able to put into action in Texas… why don’t you talk about some of the developments that have occurred as well as your mission work? [27:43] In 2008, an investigative reporter told Tim’s family that detectives had a rape kit that would have potentially exonerated him, implicated Jerry Wayne Johnson, the actual rapist, and they were sitting on it. Up until that time, no one in Texas had been posthumously exonerated. [31:45] Tim’s family ended up meeting with then-governor Rick Perry and convinced him to pass the Timothy Cole Compensation Act which increased compensation funds to exonerees to $80,000 per year for time served — the most generous in the country — as well as up to 120 college credit hours and lifetime annuity. [34:43] We’ve been doing a lot of these cases, and people who are exonerated do not receive the same benefits as someone who’s been paroled… so it’s fantastic that the state of Texas has been getting on board and trying to make it better for those who have been released. [38:01] Tim’s family still keeps in contact with the assault survivor who incorrectly identified him as a perpetrator, and there is no blame being cast— both parties are moving forward with grace and forgiveness.  [39:03] Is there anything being done in Texas to make sure this never happens to someone else? Because you and I both know that wrongful identifications make up a huge percentage of wrongful convictions… [42:16] Can you give us a brief overview of what you’re doing as VP of Texas’s Innocence Project? [45:13] You’re doing some great work and I commend you for these admirable efforts. Last question… what do you think Tim would say about all of the good work you’re doing with the Innocence Project and all the developments that happened posthumously? [47:13] While he was in prison, Tim stated, “I still believe in the justice system even if it does not believe in me.” [47:40] I think with your tenacity, we will reach a place where justice is distributed more equally. And I want to end on that powerful note. Cory Sessions, thank you so much for being here with us on Open Mike and sharing your story. [48:02] Be sure to check out the Texas Innocence Project, and donate if you can! [48:18] Another tough one… if you know somebody who needs to see this episode, forward it to them, like, comment, subscribe… thank you for being here with us and watching Open Mike — take care.

What if you could nourish both the bodies and the souls of your fellow neighbors? We the People Opportunity Farm has accomplished just that for Washtenaw County and its inhabitants. The community farming project has sowed the seeds for its participants’ success by investing in the employment and development of formerly incarcerated men and women through farming and community engagement. Since its unofficial launch in 2017, the program has consistently expanded in both size and reach, selling its vegetables to seventeen area restaurants and donating fresh produce to those in need. We the People Opportunity Farm prides itself on its core values of radical inclusion, intentional collaboration, courageous disruption, foundational justice, and commitment to growth — all of which have been integral to the project’s stunning development. If you’re passionate about gardening or advocacy work, this episode is an absolute must-watch! Show Notes [00:44] Melvin Parson and Deshawn Leath, welcome to Open Mike! [00:51] This is the first time I’ve had guests in my studio in months, and this feels like a really good one to welcome people back with. I’ve been reading about you, Melvin, and what a program you have put together — We the People Opportunity Farm in Washtenaw County. Tell us about this incredible nonprofit that involves farming, feeding the needy, and helping former convicts reintegrate into society! [02:00] I love the analogy of building the plane in the air… when did you start this program? [03:55] What did you grow in the garden that first summer? [06:15] How did you get the land that you built the farm on? [09:22] A chance interaction with a local, neighborhood kid who wanted to help with the farm made Melvin realize that this space could hold a tremendous amount of community value. It was his job to create a safe space for others to nourish themselves, both physically and spiritually. [12:38] This community garden has been steadily growing — how large is it now? [14:38] It’s 2017, you had a quarter-acre of land for the garden, lots of volunteers… what kind of vegetables are you growing? [15:40] Well-known Ann Arbor staple Zingerman’s Roadhouse ended up being the first client they sold their produce to. They eventually expanded to seventeen other restaurant clients in the Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti area, all of whom praised the quality of the vegetables, which Melvin attributes to the quality of the soil he curated. [17:46] How many acres are you growing on now? [18:43] I want to bring Deshawn Leath into the conversation… one of Melvin’s tenets is to bring in lots of volunteers and to bring in formerly incarcerated, paid interns into the farm. Tell us about yourself, and your story. [21:50] While serving a five-year prison sentence, Deshawn committed himself to transforming his life, and was connected with Melvin through another nonprofit. He’s currently interning with We the People Opportunity Farm, 46 days after his release. [22:46] What an incredible story, Deshawn. Did you do any type of farming or gardening while you were in prison? [23:50] Melvin, farming is not an easy business… using former inmates — tell me your thought process on that? It sounds like you’re specifically seeking out former inmates to help the farm. [28:29] You’ve probably already thought about this, Melvin, because you are quite the visionary… the two of you and others in your situation going into prison and teaching inmates about gardening, soil, and how to change their lives… If that’s allowed, of course. Have you thought of that? [29:28] Are all of your interns formerly incarcerated men and women? How many have you taken on? [30:24] With help from their partner Grace Fellowship Church House of Solutions, which is where the farm is currently located, they hope to expand from half-an-acre to a full acre, which would allow them to introduce more people into the paid internship program. [33:01] If people want to come for field trips, or just to visit, volunteer, and enjoy the energy of what you’ve grown, how can they find out about you and arrange to make that happen? [34:30] Because of COVID-19, volunteering opportunities are more intentional and structured, but you can contact We the People Opportunity Farm at any time via their website and social to arrange a date. [35:42] Deshawn, do you believe this internship will break the cycle of incarceration? What does this opportunity mean to you? [38:28] One of the admirable values of your mission is to be “courageously disruptive of the prison-industrial complex.” Could you explain that to me? [40:44] You’re in Washtenaw County and some really good things are happening there! You have a new prosecutor who’s shaking things up, and ended the cash bail system… I think that’s the first county in Michigan and hopefully it will become statewide. [46:30] I can’t see how you could fail with this energy you keep… you certainly have commitment from my law firm — we’re going to donate to your cause — and when you need people out there, we’re going to help bring people. We didn’t even mention this — but you give a lot of this beautiful, soulful food to people who can’t afford it! Tell us a little more about that. [50:26] If there’s anything you need from me, please reach out and let me know. Thank you both for being here — I really appreciate you taking the time to share your vision with me, and I look forward to the future because I know it’s going to be bright. [50:56] Thank you for listening and watching Open Mike! I hope you were as blown away as I was — please volunteer, donate, and buy merch from them! I can’t wait to see what happens with this organization because I’m anticipating great things. Please share, like, comment on this episode — and thank you for tuning in.

The entire world has been disrupted by the COVID-19 pandemic, but few industries have been hit as uniquely hard as the bar and restaurant sector. Recognizing the dire straits the industry faces, Michigan-born comedian Jason Douglas was compelled to help and launched Pay it Forward Comedy, a virtual standup series that distributes crowd-sourced funds to struggling restaurants and bars. The shows feature national headline acts from shows like Seinfeld and Breaking Bad donating their time and talent to raise money for small businesses that have partially or completely closed down due to the pandemic. Tune in to this latest installment of Open Mike for information on upcoming comedy shows and ways to contribute to your local establishments — while enjoying laugh or two as well! Show Notes [00:30] Jason Douglas’s bio and Pay It Forward Comedy charity event details. [00:54] Jason, welcome to Open Mike! [01:08] There are so many ways to help small businesses, like you’re doing with Pay It Forward Comedy. Tell us how you came up with the idea! [01:40] So you have the participation of some comedians who have been on Seinfeld and Breaking Bad… tell us who they are! How hard was it to get them to do this? [02:21] Wait, Agent Gomez from Breaking Bad is a comedian? [02:39] When are these comedy shows? How can people watch? [02:47] Check out their Facebook Page for upcoming show dates! [03:12] I didn’t know you were a Metro Detroit guy! I have a lot of restaurant friends, so I love this idea. Where were you born and raised? [03:37] How does this work? You’re conducting this on Facebook or a platform where people can digitally log in… but let’s say we pick a great restaurant — walk us through how the event works. [04:48] Have you done one yet in Michigan? [05:47] I know when I’m in a comedy club, I’m laughing my ass off… whereas, if I’m watching an HBO comedy set, I’m not as engaged. How are you finding it translating over via Zoom? How does the audience interact and how do you feed off them when the audience is remote? [07:03] Let’s try it — I’m gonna put you on the spot. Give me a little something! [07:47] How many shows have you done thus far? And what’s the reaction from the restaurants? [08:08] Those headliners you mentioned… are they up for participating whenever? [08:39] How many of the jokes are about COVID and the pandemic? What percentage does that occupy the setlist? [09:35] Tell me about your comedic life! Before COVID, what were you up to, what’s your background? [11:07] You’re booking a lot — are you still doing standup, or is that a thing of the past? [12:04] Before COVID, there were a lot of new comedy shows on Netflix… now that live comedy shows are paused, I imagine there’s been a boom in recorded comedy specials? [12:50] Royal Oak’s Comedy Castle is consistently voted one of the nation’s best comedy clubs and just reopened in late February for the first time since the pandemic. [14:05] Do you like heckling when you’re performing? [15:28] You mentioned you worked with Brad Garrett… what did you do for him? Is he a good dude? [16:05] Your company is called the Comedian Company and you’re still booking events both corporate and private party right now… if anyone is listening and owns a restaurant that is struggling, make sure to contact Jason, who is providing this service. [22:36] Jason also got Darren McCarty, a former Open Mike Guest, into comedy. [23:48] Thanks for being on Open Mike, Jason! We’ll talk soon. [23:58] There you have it! Jason Douglas from Pay It Forward Comedy… if you have someone in your life who loves to laugh, be sure to forward this episode to them and like/subscribe. We’re nearing 3 million downloads and are coming up to our 100th episode, which we have some special stuff planned for… we appreciate you watching — take care!

At age 17, Philadelphian Terrance Lewis found himself falsely accused of the 1996 murder of Hulon Howard, incriminated by the deceased’s girlfriend who was under the influence of crack cocaine at the time. After an excruciating two-year-long investigation, Lewis was ultimately convicted of murder and sent to prison. He would remain wrongfully incarcerated for the next twenty-one years, until a new defense team, groundbreaking Supreme Court ruling, and pragmatic Common Pleas Judge helped pave the way to his 2019 exoneration. Upon release, Lewis successfully filed a civil rights lawsuit against the city of Philadelphia and appropriated the funds to launch the Terrance Lewis Liberation Foundation, a non-profit that advocates for wrongfully convicted and disproportionately sentenced peoples. Tune in to this installment of Open Mike to find out how he managed to reassemble his life and give back to others who have been similarly victimized. Show Notes [00:13] Terrance Lewis’s background and bio. [00:49] Terrance, welcome to the show. I’m so happy to have you here, today. [1:00] I’ve read a lot about you and I have to say I’m so sorry you spent nineteen years in prison for a murder you didn’t commit. It’s just a heartbreaking story and I’m so pleased you’re approaching a two-year milestone of being released. I’m honored to have you on the show. [01:48] Terrance actually spent over twenty-one years in prison. [02:57] It’s scary how common these stories are, how common the injustice and the fraud is. It’s just mind-boggling... [03:38] Let’s go back to 1997, you were nineteen years old, expecting your first child, a month away from being born… were you excited about becoming a dad? [04:58] Were you able to build a connection with your son while you were in prison? [05:59] Terrance was placed in the farthest regions of Pennsylvania, far from his hometown of Philadelphia, further isolating him from his family. [06:15] How many times did you see your son in those twenty-one years? [07:21] Let’s go back to 1997 again… there was a murder in your neighborhood, you were living with your cousin, didn’t have a ton of money… did you hear about this murder or know that something happened? [08:42] When was the first time you were notified you were a suspect? Was it when the police approached you? [09:33] Tell us how the police became convinced of your guilt and arrested you? [11:29] One of the witnesses had gotten high on crack cocaine prior to alleging Terrance’s guilt. Police then manipulated and exploited her unreliable memory to spoon feed her contrived information that pinned the murder on Terrance. [13:15] They never got a wrongful confession out of you, correct? They never tied you with DNA, a weapon, or any evidence except for a known addict who was getting high when she allegedly saw you, correct? [14:01] There were two other people convicted who were with you at the time, yes? [15:24] Who was your defense attorney for your trial? [16:37] Was this a court-appointed attorney or did you retain him with money? [18:56] Did you meet your attorney before the trial? [20:57] How many days was your trial? [21:30] A lot of these wrongful conviction trials are short jury trials with poor defense attorneys who aren’t calling up witnesses or cross-examining… did he mount any defense once the trial was going? Were you aware during your trial that things were going horribly awry? [24:21] Where were you at the time of the murder? Did you have an alibi? [26:18] None of that makes sense and it’s shocking to hear these types of stories. Did your attorney call any witnesses at all on your behalf? [27:58] Terrance, with all due love and respect, you keep saying you’re not a lawyer… but you’re smarter than a lot of lawyers I know — you don’t have to be a lawyer to brainstorm these facts you’re presenting, which makes your situation even sadder. Did you testify at trial? You mentioned that you wanted to, but did you ever take the stand? [32:05] Take us through the process of how you were exonerated — what happened along that journey? [34:07] In 2012, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that it was unconstitutional to give minors like Lewis mandatory life sentences without the possibility of parole. In 2016, a second ruling from the high court made that decision retroactive, giving Lewis the opportunity to be resentenced. [38:11] You went to a judge, prepared to plead guilty to a crime you didn’t commit in order to win your innocence… and that judge decided to not make you go through with that, and vacated your sentence on the spot — is that basically what happened? [40:54] I want to talk about how you got your paralegal degree while you were in prison — is that true? [41:13] You got out of prison and you had job offers! That was actually a positive aspect, and I’m curious — are you working now? What are you currently doing? [41:40] Terrance is in the process of opening his own foundation, a 501c3 nonprofit, the Terrance Lewis Liberation Foundation, dedicated to advocating for wrongfully convicted people and those serving disproportionate sentences. The Liberation Foundation also seeks to support formerly incarcerated folks and challenge police and prosecutorial misconduct. [43:46] You filed a civil lawsuit after you got out and won over $6 million — congratulations, you deserve it! And you’re using your own money to help other people get out of prison, which is commendable. Is that what you’re doing full-time now? [45:24] You had a dream to go to college, our notes say. Is that something you’re still pursuing? [47:01] I commend you for all the work you’re doing to give back. And I’m so sorry you lost those 21 years. I love your attitude and energy. I’ve become friends with some exonerees in Detroit, and they have similar character — they’re caring people, loving people, they care about their community and aren’t consumed by rage or vengeance. And I get the same vibes from you. [48:29] Keep up the good fight, Terrance.  Good luck with your son, your foundation… we appreciate you coming on Open Mike. Thanks again, it was so nice to meet you! [49:01] There you have it — Terrance Lewis, exoneree from Pennsylvania, what a crazy story…if you’ve been following our wrongful conviction series, it’s just more of the same. If you know anybody who needs to see this, forward it to them, like it, subscribe to our channels, and thank you for being a fan of Open Mike. Take care!

This week, Open Mike welcomes its first faceless guest! Meet Ghost, a mysterious vigilante who has launched Creep Catching Unit, an online movement dedicated toward keeping communities safe by exposing and reporting pedophiles. CC Unit operates independently of law enforcement to entrap and confront predators who believe they’re meeting up with children or young teens. They then post videos of the altercations online for the Internet to distribute and publicly shame — a pillory for the digital age. In this must-see episode, Ghost takes us through his vigilante origin story, shares details on CC Unit’s most intense encounters, and swaps war stories with a surprise, celebrity visitor! Show Notes [00:05] Background of CC Unit and their founder, Ghost. [00:52] Welcome to Ghost — or should I say Mr. Ghost — how are you? [1:00] CC Unit is pretty big in California! I’ve looked at your YouTube channel that has tens of thousands of followers, your Facebook page is replete with information… but for my listeners who aren’t familiar with CC Unit, tell them what you’re all about! [01:58] How many people are in CC Unit? [02:23] On these videos, you’re normally the one who confronts these people? [02:47] How long have you been doing this? [03:04] I know you want to remain anonymous, but what can you tell us about your background? Tell your fans a little bit about yourself — that you can tell us. [03:54] What sparked your interest to help your community like this? [04:30] The first day Ghost created a decoy account, he caught a sex offender. [04:52] Is being a detective or police officer still in the cards for you? [05:48] You’re setting up decoy accounts and posing as a younger person, a 13 or 14-year-old… and then what happens? Take us through the process. [07:16] How surprised were you the first time one of these creeps started hitting up what they believed to be a young kid? [08:20] Did you videotape your first encounter when you met the perp? [08:57] How many videos have you posted with different individuals? [09:35] I’ve watched some of these videos… how many people do you gave with you when you make a bust? [10:22] You’re not carrying a weapon when do make these busts, do you? [10:41] What does “CC” stand for in “CC Unit? [10:56] What does law enforcement think about you? [11:27] I know here in Michigan, police and prosecutors were very upset with Zach Sweers from Anxiety Wars and said they would refuse to prosecute anyone he brought to them. Has anyone in California said anything like that to you? [12:12] How many arrests and convictions have you helped facilitate? [13:01] One person was convicted, and he was in the military? Tell me about that case, what did he try to do? [13:56] Did you participate in that trial in any way? That case was based on evidence you brought to them? [14:52] When you put the videos and offenders’ information on the internet, what’s the reaction? [15:43] Let’s go to your Facebook page for a second… when scrolling through these, you do explain what all these people did to land on your page… there are hundreds of these! You have people of all different backgrounds in these cases and other people in the chat logs providing you their employment and other miscellaneous information… is there a movement behind these videos you’re posting? [17:00] You mentioned you used to watch To Catch a Predator with Chris Hansen… tell us about your experience with that show, what it meant to you, and how it shaped what you’re doing now. [18:50] What did you think of Chris Hansen? [19:20] Would you say he was one of your heroes growing up? [19:42] Have you ever talked to him or met him? [20:24] Well, Ghost, I have a special surprise for you today. I’d like you to meet Chris Hansen! [20:45] Thanks for jumping on today, Chris, I know you’re busy! Ghost here is trying to follow in your footsteps in California and is exposing a lot of pretty scummy people. I thought you guys should meet! [23:17] Ghost, if you had one question for Chris what would it be? [23:30] Would you ever collaborate with CC Unit? [24:38] Thank you for appearing on the show, Chris! [25:16] Let’s go back to you — have you had TV producers and directors call you for any potential collaborations? [26:00] What are plans for CC Unit moving forward? Are you going national or expanding to bring on more cases? [27:15] You’re active on YouTube and there are lots of commercials on your stuff! I assume you’re making some revenue from this? [29:08] Is any part of your surprised that there are still these types of people online? You post something from a decoy account and get hundreds of responses… is that still shocking to you? [30:19] Tell us about your craziest bust to date. [31:10] The scariest part to me is that you’re just scratching the surface of this. It feels like there are tens of thousands of people out there still doing this… and that they’re successful. That scares me! [32:20] Keep up the good work… CC Unit and Ghost, anyone who watches your stuff appreciates what you’re doing. Stay safe, be careful, and thank you for appearing on Open Mike! [33:17] There you have it — Ghost from CC Unit with a guest appearance by Chris Hansen. Thanks for watching Open Mike and sharing this episode with anyone who needs it. We have our 100th episode coming up and we have something special planned — you won’t want to miss that! Take care and stay tuned…

Imran Syed is nationally recognized attorney, professor, and documentary film producer. As assistant director of Michigan’s Innocence Clinic, he and a coterie of supervised law students are at the forefront of criminal justice reform, investigating and litigating a wide variety of cases with special focus on forensic science-based innocence. Having litigated several arson wrongful convictions based on outdated science, Syed is an outspoken supporter of strategies needed to address obsolete scientific evidence and its role in false imprisonments. In Episode 93 of Open Mike, Syed and Mike discuss potential outcomes of the justice reform movement, and why arson cases may specifically lead the charge to widespread, national reform. Show Notes [00:14] Imran Syed bio and background as assistant director of the University of Michigan Innocence Clinic. [00:58] Imran Syed, thank you for being on Open Mike today! [01:25] You don’t have a giant ego, but let’s put it into perspective… how long has the Michigan Innocence Clinic been in existence, how many convictions have you overturned… give us some general statistics! [03:28] In eleven years of being open, the Innocence Clinic has had twenty-four successful victories ranging from arson to murder. [04:30] Let’s set the table for our viewers… how many cases do you get asked to review per year? [06:09] On average, how many cases per year would you say you open? [07:24] What percentage of the work you do is conducted by law students as opposed to the clinic’s three supervising attorneys? [09:05] I know that the law students there, like yourself, are going on to do this for a living which has to be gratifying for you guys… [10:17] I’ve interviewed six people who have been wrongfully convicted in Michigan, and the only reason they’re home with their families is because of organizations like the Innocence Clinic. Some of these cases you even worked on! How does the enormity of what you’re doing add up in your brain? How does that feel? [13:33] You were instrumental in the Dwayne Provience case, which was one of the country’s first non-DNA innocence cases. Why was this particular case so groundbreaking? [17:00] It feels like you can’t go another week with another wrongful conviction being overturned, right? [19:42] Out of all these interviews I’ve been doing, and all these podcasts in this industry… I’ve met the most generous people. Your community is pretty special. When I’m reading through these cases preparing for an interview, the defense attorneys in wrongful convictions are usually just bad. What percentage of the time did exonerees have a stellar defense with the right experts and right arguments? [22:57] You actually wrote a film on the case we were talking about called The Price of Providence… it won a few awards at the Great Lakes Film Festival, so congratulations on that! Tell us how about that project and how we can watch it! [27:34] Another case you worked on, Walter Forbes — recently released after 37 years for a murder he didn’t commit. How long ago was he exonerated? [27:58] Why don’t you take us through that… how long did you work on that case? [34:54] And how is Walter Forbes now that he’s out of prison after 37 years? [37:07] Talk about patience! This man should be giving lectures on the topic — I can’t even wait 37 minutes for an answer on some things, let alone 37 years. It’s unbelievable! [40:13] It’s interesting, every exoneree I’ve met hasn’t come out of prison embittered, and it’s very consistent! They’re appreciative and they don’t want to waste another day being mad — and they’re all horrible stories! The only good aspect of these stories is that they’ve been released. [41:28] One area that the Michigan Innocence Clinic specializes in is arson cases… I’ve never worked on any arson case — why are so many people imprisoned based on evidence surrounding arson? [46:22] You have so much knowledge about arson cases… there are probably thousands of arson cases across this country right now being brought for wrongful reasons. Are you able to implement this knowledge and proliferate it to their defense attorneys, court-appointed or otherwise? Or are they on their own and forced to Google? How do you get the right information to the right people? [48:48] I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention your clinic’s success in Abusive Head Trauma cases… It feels similar to what you’re describing in the arson world, which is basically junk science. Am I right? [55:25] Maybe you and will one day have future conversations on this and civil attorneys across the country listening to this will be more inclined to help. I’m a big believer everyone should do a certain amount of pro bono hours per year, but not everyone does. Maybe with your professorship, we’ll be able to teach and shed some light on it! [56:32] Any time there’s been reform, it has followed a civil litigation case with competent, qualified, oftentimes high-profile attorneys. Very rarely does it come out of criminal cases because no one has the resources to litigate the cases properly. [58:58] Professor Imran Syed, thank you for being with us today and taking time to educate our listeners and viewers. [59:38] If you know people who are interested in these issues, forward this episode to them and be sure to like and subscribe to our channel! Thank you for watching Open Mike!

Show Notes [00:14] Kate Judson’s background and bio as Executive Director of the Center for Integrity in Forensic Sciences. [01:37] Welcome to the show! I’m so excited to talk to you – on Open Mike, we’ve never really focused on forensics. I’m reading a quote from you that says there have been 2,500 exonerations since 1989… is that right? [02:18] It feels like every single week there’s another exoneration, and it’s hard to believe the frequency. Are you tracking what percentage of these exonerations are due to forensics? [03:49] Let’s take a step back… can you tell us about forensic evidence and why it’s such an important part of criminal trials? [04:27] What are some of the common problems and issues you encounter when dealing with forensic evidence and scientists? [05:25] In 60% of exoneration cases, forensic analysts have overstated what evidence has showed… meaning, they stated the evidence was more conclusive than it actually was. The most common issue is cognitive bias, an unintentional, yet inherently human, subjective interpretation of objective data. [06:44] On the show we had an attorney who discussed hyper-focus or tunnel vision on behalf of prosecutors and law enforcement… is that something you encounter? [08:03] One of the reasons we do these shows is because I want potential jurors listening to have a healthy dose of skepticism… because when you have a scientist or analyst in court pointing to evidence saying, “This blood spatter means this,” it’s a hard thing to prove, isn’t it? [09:28] We can’t stop ourselves from having a human brain and processing information the way we’re naturally disposed to — that’s why it’s so important to have a system to counteract it. [09:38] One of the Center for Integrity in Forensic Sciences’ areas of specialty is diagnosing Shaken Baby Syndrome, is that true? Can you tell our audience about the major flaws of that diagnosis in those types of cases? [10:58] Our audience listened to an interview with Julie Baumer, someone who was convicted of Shaken Baby Syndrome… you worked on that case and wrote an Amicus for it, is that correct? [11:55] Isn’t it true they recently changed the name from Shaken Baby Syndrome to “Abusive Head Trauma” cases? [12:26] What is your best advice on those types of cases? Doctors, hospitals, and police seem to jump on that conclusion pretty quickly and it disrupts and ruins lives… if you were to be able to get in front of all those people and educate them, what would your stance be? [18:25] In the case of bite marks, my impression is that all bites marks are accurate because we have different dental idiosyncrasies… tell me why that is completely wrong! [20:57] Kate, you made me realize how messed up our thinking is. The bias comes from people dying in a fire and using their dental records to identify them, that’s where my inherent bias came from! We take all this information we’re exposed to on the news or TV shows, and when we’re presented bite marks or dentals records in a criminal case, we assume it’s inherently accurate, and it’s not! [22:04] The legal system knows this to an extent. There are cases with precedential value that state it’s important for the science brought into a court case to be related to the research that underlines it. [23:56] Kate, you started off as a public defender. Lots of these wrongful convictions unfortunately involve court-appointed attorneys who don’t have the same resources as prosecutors’ officers. Now that you’re in forensics and can see both sides, what needs to be done to level the playing field between public defenders and the prosecutors’ offices? [26:36] You’re now working as the Executive Director of the Center for Integrity in Forensic Sciences. How did that come about? [27:29] What is the overall mission of your new organization? [27:44] And it was co-founded by Dean Strang and Jerome Buting who are well-known in their defense of Steven Avery documented in the Netflix docuseries Making a Murderer. Major hit. How has that series impact the community fighting wrongful convictions? [28:40] What was your take on that whole show and your take on Steven Avery’s guilt or innocence? I have to ask! [31:47] I don’t know if you can track this or anecdotally… are people now more likely to believe forensic science can be flawed after watching series like Making a Murderer? [32:40] Are Dean and Jerry still defending people accused of crimes or are they more focused on the project you’re working on? [33:20] Make sure to check out all the good work the Center for Integrity in Forensic Sciences is up to — along with their social media — on their website! [33:59] Anyone in the criminal justice system can receive training on these issues — prosecutors, judges, people facing criminal charges. In rare cases, they also get involved as co-counsel to litigate a particular issue. [35:09] Kate, thank you so much for being on and doing this work. We appreciate all you do! [35:36] If you know someone who would benefit from seeing this information, share this episode and make sure you subscribe to get updates! Thank you for watching, thank you for listening. Have a great day!

Do you enjoy sugary, deep-fried treats? What about a nice, relaxing drink after a long day? Thanks to Detroit City Distillery’s palate-tickling paczki vodka, you can have both at the same time! In this intoxicating episode, distillery co-owner Michael Forsyth discusses how the concoction is steeped Detroit’s Polish heritage, explains the innovative pastry-to-vodka distilling process, and updates us on business progress throughout the pandemic. Bonus content— Mike and team conduct an in-office vodka tasting! Show Notes [00:40] Michael Forsyth, co-owner of Detroit City Distillery — welcome back to Open Mike! [00:50] Last time you were here, you provided some bourbon that was very good that I restocked several times. But you had mentioned you had amazing paczki-flavored vodka and yet you sold so many of them you weren’t able to share any with me! You sold out 2,000 bottles in 4.5 hours last February, is that true? [02:13] Tell us about your business and what you’ve been up to since the pandemic! [03:52] Bottle sales this past pandemic year compared to a normal year… are they up, down, flat, what’s happening? [04:35] Bars were closed, but people purchased so much alcohol from liquor stores that business was actually up compared to the previous year. [05:37] We’re talking about Paczki Day, which is coming up, February 16th. Do you want to tell our listeners about Fat Tuesday and what it’s all about? [06:22] Detroit City Distillery is partial to New Palace Bakery in Hamtramck, a local, 100-year-old institution. [07:18] You love paczkis and you love alcohol… what made you decide to put together the proverbial chocolate and the peanut butter? [09:13] Has anybody copied you yet? [10:23] You showed me last year of the paczkis smushed up in the alcohol, and it looked kind of gross and good at the same time! But you strain out the paczkis and then it burns off, right? [11:34] On that note, you’re making my mouth water. So I want to introduce you to two of the people who helped the alcohol industry sell all of those bottles last year — Jami and Ryan who work here at the law firm! I thought rather than drinking alone in my office, I would have them in here and sample it and give us their opinions! [12:50] I like the bottle, especially the sticker of the paczki on the back! [13:15] It’s 88 proof — how about you explain what that means while I pour for my friends? [13:55] Most vodka is proofed at 80, so this is going to give you a little more bang for your buck. [14:34] Alright… what’s “cheers” in Polish? [14:44] Wow, that’s smooth! I don’t usually drink vodka straight — this is really good! [15:18] You can distill anything into vodka because it’s essentially pure alcohol. You can make it out of potatoes, wheat, rye, grapes. Potato vodka is often the smoothest, a “blank canvas.” [16:25] Jami loves it — it’s much smoother than the vodka she normally drinks. [16:55] Ryan agrees — it doesn’t have the burn going down. The raspberry flavor comes through, but you can actually taste the doughiness of the pastry. [17:38] This might be good just on the rocks… would you mix this with anything? [18:19] Detroit City Distillery does a riff on a White Russian with this vodka. They use Bailey’s instead of Kahlua and grate cinnamon over the top. [19:04] There’s another drink called the Polish Daisy that’s the paczki vodka, Cocchi Americano (a fortified wine), lemon, and vanilla syrup. They’ll be bottling and selling this as a bottled cocktail. [22:37] These pre-bottled cocktails you’re selling — where can I go out and buy those? [22:54] Purchase cocktails on the Detroit City Distillery website, and pick it up in person or curbside at their tasting room! They’re open Wednesday-Sunday. [23:29] Some of your liquor is available at local liquor stores and supermarkets. Will these bottled cocktails and paczki vodka be sold at these locations as well? [24:21] Last year, people were calling from Poland, asking how they could get their hands on the paczki vodka! In Michigan, bars are not allowed to ship alcohol, but Woods Wholesale Wine in Grosse Pointe is licensed to ship alcohol out-of-state (but not in state, ironically). [25:11] It feels like we need a law change in Michigan… how are we one of the only states that can’t ship alcohol? [25:56] Jami and Ryan just refilled their glasses, so that’s a compliment right there! And then they’re going to try and do some work around the firm after this… So if you call the firm and Jami answers and sounds a little happy, you know why! [26:28] What was your biggest seller last year? [27:03] Are you guys sending out newsletters? How are you getting the word out? [27:57] Cheers, Michael! Happy Paczki Day, and hopefully you’ll sell out just as quick as last year. [28:32] Thank you for watching this installment of Open Mike: Alcohol Edition. I’m going to start slurring my words in a minute. If you know someone who likes alcohol, vodka, or paczkis, share this episode and make sure you subscribe to get updates! Thank you for watching, thank you for listening. Take care! Note: at the time of production, Detroit City Distillery’s vodka had not yet been released. When it was released on February 1st, 2021, the entire stock sold out in 22 minutes.

Mike McCormick is a dedicated father, husband, and community leader committed to teaching developing male minds the essence of authentic masculinity. Our antiquated, social norms often compel men to resist vulnerability, withdraw, and insist everything is within their control, while larger questions of what it means to be a man go unanswered. Many men reach adulthood without the emotional skillset or sense of identity required to properly function in the world — they’re little kids trapped in a big kids’ bodies. In order to combat this cultural deficiency, McCormick curated ManQuest, a spiritual approach geared toward transforming teenaged boys into men of courage, empathy, and integrity while strengthening bonds with their fathers and other male mentors. This episode is a must-watch for anyone with teenaged sons — the two Mikes discuss everything from media influences on male development, hurdles that deter holistic connection with our sons, and actionable methodologies to help navigate the path to authentic manhood. Show Notes [00:29] Mike McCormick’s background and bio as author of Manquest: Leading Teenage Boys into Manhood and founder of McCormick Basketball. [01:49] Welcome to the show, Mike! You wrote a book and accompanying program called Manquest — what is Manquest and why is it so important? [02:47] What are the hurdles in our way that prevent us from doing a better job of raising our sons? [03:52] I imagine social media over the last ten years hasn’t helped. I know raising daughters in the time of social media has been difficult… raising sons must be even harder. [05:19] Some dads may be listening to this and thinking, “This is uncomfortable… I’m not quite sure how to do this…” What’s your advice to help them get out of that discomfort and talking to their sons? [06:11] Lots of parents, including yourself, struggle with wanting to be friends with their kids vs. being a disciplinarian, administering tough love, and giving out advice. How do you advise the fathers and mentors you coach on the difference between being a friend and being a parent? [08:31] Tell us more about the Manquest program! Is there a religious aspect to this program? [08:56] The book is spiritual, not religious — it’s suited for people who are of faith as well as those who do not follow a specific faith. [09:37] What is “authentic masculinity?” [10:27] It can be boiled down into Five Guideposts, which are the “essence” of what it means to be a man: Lead Courageously, Pretend About Nothing, Protect Your Heart, Engage in Deep and Meaningful Relationships, Stay Awake! [12:39] Those are really good reminders for all of us. Your book also talks about “Rugged Truths.” What does that mean? Can you give us a few examples? [14:16] The Rugged Truths are basically individual points that examine the realities surrounding the Five Guideposts. While the Guideposts are the goal, the Rugged Truths are the harsh facts that life isn’t fair, we all go through periods of doubt and darkness, and that we aren’t going to be able to embody the Guideposts at all times. But we are still able to and need to get up when we’re knocked down. [16:50] Because of our archaic cultural norms, teenaged boys are rarely going to demonstrate the vulnerability to reach out and ask their fathers or mentors what it means to be a man. They’re compelled to act like they “have it all together.” [17:49] Manhood is taught, it is not caught. Men are made, they’re not born. [18:00] Are you finding the boys want to talk about these issues? Or is this something you have to convince them to talk about and realize the importance of? [18:55] Movies are a great way to unlock conversation and father-son bonding. [19:35] This makes me think… in the Jewish faith, once you hit thirteen, you become a man — that’s it. In your program, when do you see the boys entering manhood? Is there a specific age, or is it different for everyone? [21:04] Being a man is not a specific moment in time. It’s about choosing to live as a man. It’s a daily, moment-to-moment decision that we all have. [21:42] You mentioned movies… what are some of the best movies that can create an automatic connection and open up lines of communication? [24:24] You also have a daughter… is that the next book? Is “Womanquest” next? [27:00] It’s our responsibility to step up and provide these boys what they need to become men, because they’re struggling. [27:28] Make sure to check Mike’s work on the Manquest website, shoot him an email with questions, and read his book, available on the site or Amazon! [28:56] Thank you for being so passionate about this, writing the book, and doing what you do, Mike. Thanks so much for being on Open Mike today. [29:22] Mike McCormick, Manquest — I advise you to check it out! If you know anybody who would gain benefit from this episode, please tell them about it! Comment, like, subscribe — we’re already over 2 million downloads and we’re approaching our magic 100th episode! Thank you for being here, thank you for watching, and stay tuned for more!

In 1980, Iowan man William Beeman was accused of murdering a woman named Michiel Winkel. However, Winkel was seen by several witnesses for days after the alleged time of her murder. Despite this testimony, Beeman has remained in prison for the last forty years. Enter Erica Nichols Cook, the Director Wrongful Conviction Division at the Iowa State Public Defender. Cook has spent the last several years attempting to get Beeman a new trial based on previous, possibly intentionally undisclosed evidence — evidence that could exonerate him. In this installment, she rehashes the outlandish circumstances of the case, provides updates on its appeal status, and discusses the challenges of reforming the criminal justice system in one of the most immutable states in the country. Show Notes [00:18] Backgrounds of Erica Nichols Cook and Jeff Wright. [01:23] Thank you both for coming on the show! Erica, I’m going to start with you. As Director of the Wrongful Conviction Division (WCD) in Iowa’s Office of the State Public Defender, how serious is the problem of innocent people being locked up in America, in your opinion? [01:49] Throughout the world, there have been 2,700 exonerations since 1989, only 16 of which were in Iowa. [2:20] Sounds like Iowa is a little bit behind the times… on Open Mike, we’ve talked to many people who deal with the conviction integrity units inside the prosecutor’s office. You are inside the defender’s office, (Jeff Wright who is on the podcast with us) which is the complete opposite. I don’t quite understand it, because you guys are the defenders of these people — of course you think these people are wrongfully convicted… so what good does it do? Jeff, I’m going to direct that question to you. [3:30] So the difference is you have a department inside the Public Defender’s Office that specifically looks at post-conviction cases. This started in about 2015 — what led to this division being created? [06:49] Do you guys still have private attorneys who can handle criminal cases, a court-appointed system? [07:22] Not every state has a state-run public defender’s office — Michigan doesn’t have one. I’ve asked several criminal defense attorneys why that is. Do you think it’s important to have one overseer of all the public defenders in the state, as opposed to on a county-wide basis? [08:39] What are some of the recurring issues that have led to so many innocent people going to prison? You mentioned there are less than 20 in Iowa, which is shockingly low… you know there are hundreds, if not thousands more. What are some trends that you’re seeing? [09:21] You’re talking about Brady violations… a lot of our listeners don’t know what that means — could you give us a brief lesson on that? [11:16] That’s a fascinating process, I’ve never heard of a deposition in a criminal case. That means you can sit with a police officer, detective, or investigator and ask if there’s any exculpatory evidence. Based on their truth and veracity, you get what they tell you… whether or not it’s the right authority person. Am I interpreting this correctly? Because it all sounds very strange! [13:31] It sounds like you need a law change, and you have a friendly lieutenant governor there… but if they’re not going to hand you a report, how do they comply with Brady? [14:01] It sounds like a waste of time, money, legal resources… you might have twenty people to depose — who has the time for that, especially if you’re deposed or a court-appointed attorney? [14:54] What’s the recipe for successfully finding the right experts and preventing wrongful convictions in the future? [15:52] You talk about violation of due process… are you referring to the 1980 case of William Beeman? Let’s dive into it. [20:42] Was the interrogation recorded? Or was there any evidence tying him to the crime scene? [22:05] The one piece of evidence you haven’t talked about yet — and tell me if I read your briefs wrong — there were SEVEN eyewitnesses who saw the victim after the time frame during which she was allegedly killed. [22:59] Two of the exculpatory witnesses were also hypnotized by law enforcement to get more information about Michiel Winkel’s whereabouts. [23:50] In 2019, prosecutors turned over an 853-page investigative report after a judge ordered discovery to obtain DNA testing of a semen sample located at the scene of the crime. In this document, they found eyewitnesses accounts that would have corroborated two other eyewitness accounts of seeing Winkel out and about AFTER the time period in which Beeman allegedly killed her. The trial attorneys did not have any of this information available to them before they went to trial on behalf of Beeman. [24:45] So the jury did hear from two or three witnesses that she was alive after the date prosecution said she was killed. That was actually argued and presented, and they still didn’t believe it? [25:30] The body was not kept in a cooler between the time it was located and when an autopsy was conducted the next day. The medical examiner who conducted the autopsy was a family practice doctor, who wasn’t experienced in forensics. [26:30] The body was in a stage of rigor mortis that corroborated other timeline witnesses that saw Winkel after the alleged time of her death. [27:04] What is the state saying now? Why are there still roadblocks? Why is there no honest prosecutor stepping up to help exonerate this man, what is going on there? [29:26] When a free society decides to imprison its people, it needs to do everything within its power to ensure that they’re guilty. And if there is anything that determines later that they’re not, it needs to be given full weight and evaluated. [30:10] It feels like every day I’m getting a notification that someone has been exonerated. The momentum is here, but it doesn’t seem like Iowa has caught up yet. My question is… have you been in front of a judge with this new evidence? What did they say? [32:27] So the court of appeals hasn’t ruled… how is the makeup of your Supreme Court — I assume pretty Republican? Is your governor a Republican? Lieutenant governor as well? He seems pretty sympathetic as a former defender, though… [34:22] I’ve become friends with some exonerees here in Michigan, and some of their stories go back to a newspaper columnist who took interest in their story and got the attention of the public on their side. Has this man received good public attention in Iowa yet? [36:09] The right person has to hear it, and the right person has to get mad. This DNA evidence is so important, and there are so many innocence clinics just focusing on DNA… I assume you haven’t searched their evidence room? [36:30] They HAVE searched the evidence room. There are boxes from 1979, but not 1980. There is no box labeled “Beeman” or “Winkel” and no explanation. [37:16] How old is Mr. Beeman these days? [37:40] Thank you both for your work on the Beeman case. Please let me know what happens with the court of appeals. Let’s try to get some publicity out there so people know what’s happening. Best of luck and keep fighting. [38:28] Thank you for watching Open Mike. If anybody you know is interested or experienced in these cases, please forward this episode to them. We really appreciate your support. Take care.

David Rudolf and Sonya Pfeiffer are spouses, attorneys at Rudolf Widenhouse law firm, and co-hosts of the popular podcast Abuse of Power. However, they may both be best known for their work on North Carolina vs. Peterson, a bizarre, 15-year-long case that was documented on the Netflix smash-hit, The Staircase. In this don’t-miss episode of Open Mike, Rudolf and Pfeiffer reflect on subjects omitted by the docuseries, including: the challenges of working on a highly publicized case with a documentary crew, what they retrospectively would have done differently to ensure justice, and how their client, Michael Peterson, is faring five years after the case’s conclusion. Show Notes [00:50] David Rudolf and Sonya Pfeiffer, thank you both for being here with us on Open Mike! I have so many questions for you, I’ve been reading about your history, and so many exciting things you’ve been a part of — things we’ve been trying to cover on Open Mike with all the wrongful exonerations… [01:07] David, let’s dive right in. You’ve been an attorney for many years and have always fought for the little guy. What has driven you to those cases? [02:32] Sonya, I recognize you from the Netflix series Abuse of Power. You had a prominent role as a reporter in the series — now you’re a lawyer, you guys are married, and you have this great podcast… tell us about that journey and where you are now. [05:19] What a journey! After law school you met David during the Peterson trial, is that true? [05:49] Did you guys start dating after the Peterson trial, during the Peterson trial, am I allowed to ask that question? [07:46] I assume with some of your current cases, you’re dealing with the press. How are you finding that? Are you good at that, or is it difficult? [10:21] Before we hop into the Peterson case, Netflix, and your podcast, I have a question about consistent problems you’ve seen in the many, many years you’ve been doing criminal defense… on our podcast, we’ve now interview five exonerees who have collectively sent over 100 years in prison for crimes they absolutely did not commit… As a lawyer of thirty years who’s new to criminal defense, I’m seeing consistent inequity in our justice system, and I’m curious what you’re seeing on a day-to-day basis and whether you think we’re getting better? [12:07] The root cause of such inequity may be confirmation bias, the tendency to seek out information that reinforces previously established beliefs. In a legal context where evidence may be weak, this can manifest in pressuring false confessions out of suspects, junk science, or tampered evidence. [14:57] If you’ve not checked out the Netflix series The Staircase, about the Peterson trial, you need to check it out. [15:25] How did you get involved in the case? Did you know someone involved, or were you one of the best resources around and were recruited? [17:48] How did the Netflix series come about and how did the production crew convince you to give them behind-the-scenes access? Because if any of that information came to light while the case was active, the case would have died! [22:39] Nothing was staged for the film, right? You would have proceeded the way you would have whether or not the film crews were there? [24:00] Sonya, how fascinating was that for you to watch after the trial, seeing how they came up with their legal theories and conducted investigations? [25:49] Thank you for putting that in context — the original Netflix series The Staircase came out in 2004 on the Sundance Channel, and then five additional episodes were released by Netflix in 2018. [26:26] Overall, were you please with how the series came out? [27:46] The team you put together… you definitely don’t put a team like that together for every case. On the big ones you do. This was a Dream Team. You had some really good defense attorneys, friends and family, jury consultants, pathologists… For example, you flew one in from Detroit — Werner Spitz, the former Oakland County medical examiner who’s world-renowned. A legend. How did you find him? [30:12] Your facial expressions in some of those first episodes are so compelling. You can almost see into your brain when you’re describing your theories to your jury consultants… I don’t think people realize how much is involved in making those tough decisions. And you don’t know if you made the right decision until the jury comes in and delivers their verdict! [32:54] The five exonerees I’ve interviewed, none of their defense attorneys had the qualities you described. Nor did they have any assembled teams defending them. [36:28] How do you instill the passion you’re describing in these attorneys so they become the most effective public defenders possible? [39:31] The Staircase is so well done, and so thorough. It should be mandatory viewing for law students. Maybe it will be one day. [40:14] For the fans who have seen this docuseries and may go back and re-watch…  are there one or two things on the case you would have done differently? [42:35] When you have people who are perjuring themselves and confirmation bias, it’s hard to prove your theories, especially when you’re in the throes of it! It took you eight or nine years to thoroughly assert Michael Peterson’s innocence. But when you’re in it, and you have an uneducated, poor person up against a powerful attorney, it’s hard to prove your point. [44:44] When people make up evidence or perjure themselves, it’s called noble cause corruption. The reason they’re doing something wrong is that they believe they have the right person — the ends justify the means. [45:31] Did you interview the jury after the verdict? [46:37] The second trial you were granted never went… you sent many months working for your client and got him an Alford plea, which we don’t have in Michigan. Can you explain what that is? [48:49] Was it hard to convince Michael to take that plea? [49:50] How’s he doing with his children and the family unit he had? Are you still in contact with him? [51:03] Whether you think Michael is guilty or not, that’s not the point of the docuseries. The point is to show the criminal justice system, illuminate the issues in it, and to demonstrate that he didn’t get a fair trial. [51:46] What do you really believe happened? It may not be a fair question… it’s such a convoluted, crazy story. [55:19] David, you literally learned about the owl theory after closing arguments? [57:12] All these years later, we’re allowed to play Monday morning quarterback… if you were allowed to do the trial again, that would be your theory? [57:45] Did they check for evidence of an owl attack on her head? [58:16] Were the feathers in her hair ever analyzed to determine they were owl feathers? Are they in an evidence locker somewhere? [59:03] Tell me if I’m, wrong, but there wasn’t a single piece of evidence proving an intruder, there’s never been a weapon, there are bizarre marks on her head that don’t seem to be caused by a person, Michael isn’t covered in any evidence or DNA… it was almost like a phantom committed the murder! Those marks on her head may have been hard to reckon with. [1:00:50] David, tell us about your podcast Abuse of Power! [1:06:22] Thank you for being on the podcast, I’d love to do more episodes with you. If you have availability in the coming months, I’m going to give you a call [1:06:50] Make sure to check out Abuse of Power and The Staircase on Netflix, everyone! David, thank you for your time. [1:07:08] Thank you for watching Open Mike, I hope you enjoyed this episode! Some of the questions I asked today I’m sure they did not ask when the trial was live — if you think I missed any questions, let me know because it sounds like we’re going to have David back on. Like, comment, subscribe, download. We’re looking forward to a great 2021 season and we have lots of great things lined up for you! Thank you for watching, thank you for listening!

As a former writer for The Tonight Show, humor columnist, and podcast personality, Frank King is a natural comedian. However, similar to many comedians, he has battled depression and suicidal ideation his entire life, conditions that run in his family. Frank realized that his comedic skills provided him a casual platform through which he could reach and educate people on mental illness — when people are laughing, they’re learning. So, he drew upon his personal experiences with depression, framed them through a lens of comedy, and launched a career as a Suicide Prevention and Postvention Public Speaker and Trainer. While high in entertainment value, Frank’s keynotes are also highly impactful. By blending comedy and education, they start conversations, create a sense of community, and give voice to the feelings and experiences of those who have been affected by mental illness and suicide. In this episode of Open Mike, Frank reflects on his lengthy comedy career, discusses the state of the pandemic-affected speaking industry, and imparts some serious insight on mental illness, peppering in jokes all along the way. If you or someone you know is suffering from depression, call 1-800-273-TALK (8255) to reach a 24-hour crisis center, or text MHA to 741741. Show Notes [00:24] Frank King’s background and bio. [01:57] Welcome to Open Mike, Frank! [02:23] That was quite an intro I just read! You’ve done it all, and now you’re doing TEDx Talks on suicide, comedy — I don’t even know where to begin! Let’s start with The Tonight Show — who was the host during the time you were there? [03:57] You got to work with and meet a bunch of celebrities, Jerry Seinfeld, Ellen DeGeneres, Kevin James… they came to the studio with their own jokes, so would you just meet them when they were in the building, working on the show? [04:46] You were writing on The Tonight Show, so were you ever on The Tonight Show? [05:31] Tell us one of your favorite bits or jokes you sold, whatever comes to mind! [06:55] Now you’re doing TED Talks… tell us how you got into that and the topics you speak on. [09:05] As someone who has hereditary Major Depressive Disorder and experiences moments of suicidal ideation, Frank realized he could speak on suicide prevention if he got some education on it. [11:07] So, people are hiring you to help them get TEDx Talks? [11:21] Tell our listeners and viewers the difference between a TED Talk and a TEDx Talk. [13:11] You’re talking about a very tough subject, you’re showing vulnerability, and adding some humor… was the first time you took the stage nerve-wracking? [14:22] What are a few of the takeaways from your talk? So people can search you out on TED and YouTube… [15:45] What’s the topic of your sixth TEDx Talk coming up in February? [16:38] Frank’s next talk is about depressive realism, a suggested attribute of people with depression that allows them to see the world as it is, unaffected by “rose-colored glasses.” The idea is to change the frame through which we view depression — not every aspect of it is negative. [17:56] You don’t get paid for TEDx Talks, correct? [18:56] What are you striving for? I imagine the goal is number of viewers — what’s a successful talk vs. a not-so-successful talk? [21:00] We’ve had five people on the show who have been wrongfully convicted, and some of them may want to do a TEDx Talk one day. They may not necessarily be able to afford to hire a coach but would benefit from some advice. What should they do in order to book a TEDx Talk some day? [25:42] How does one translate a lifelong experience, a story that takes hours and hours to share, into a fifteen-minute talk? [27:09] If you go to Frank’s coaching website, you can check out a PDF called 6 Things That Will KILL Your Chances Of Landing A TEDx Talk for more guidance on story structure. [27:40] I assume you’re doing TEDx virtually now? [28:06] Once you conduct a TEDx Talk, how do you leverage it? [29:40] Are you getting paid speaking gigs from these talks? [31:20] The professions with the five highest suicide rates are: construction, mining, excavation, fishing/forestry, dentists/veterinarians/physicians. [33:25] Right now is a good time to apply to TEDx because many people believe talks are no longer occurring, which is not the case. Many are occurring virtually. Additionally, the National Speakers Association estimates 25-40% of current speakers will not be working in the industry following the pandemic. There will be a pent-up demand and fewer speakers, so now is a good time to get in position if you are interested in being a speaker. [35:29] Thank you to Frank King for appearing on Open Mike! If you’re interested in a TED Talk or know someone who has an interesting story, make sure to check out his speaking website and coaching website. Thank you for supporting Open Mike!

At age seventeen, Jeffrey Deskovic was wrongfully sentenced to life in prison for the rape and murder of a classmate. Authorities knew his DNA did not match that of the actual perpetrator – who would later murder another young woman and mother of two. Nevertheless, they colluded to convict and keep Jeff behind bars for the next 16 years. After his exoneration and release, Jeff successfully sued the responsible parties, and used a substantial portion of the compensation to start The Deskovic Foundation — a non-profit that overturns wrongful convictions and challenges the policies that enable them. Check out this riveting episode of Open Mike to learn more about Jeff’s post-prison life as a lawyer, the Amazon Prime documentary about his case, and how this traumatizing ordeal helped him find his true vocation. Show Notes [00:13] Jeffrey’s bio and background [01:10] Jeff, you were a sixteen-year-old high school student and you were arrested for rape and murder — can you tell us what that was like? [01:36] What kind of kid were you? [02:14] Why do you think the police targeted you? [02:32] Jeff didn’t necessarily fit in at school, so some students referred police to him. When Jeff was emotional over the untimely murder of a classmate, the police misinterpreted that as a sign of guilt. A psychological profile conducted by the NYPD also draw similarities between Jeff’s personal attributes and that of a potential perpetrator. [03:49] The way you describe those three things… that could have been anybody! There’s no way you could have committed this crime, but I’m reading about a confession you gave while in custody. Tell us about that. [06:42] After a polygraph and interrogating a terrified Jeff for 6.5-7 hours, police eventually broke Jeff into making a false confession. [06:51] Did they say you failed the polygraph? [07:55] After the fact, did you get readouts of this test that showed you came up clean? [08:18] So you were arrested after you gave this nonsensical confession? [08:38] You’re an intelligent guy, you went to law school, you’re now helping others in similar positions. Looking back on that confession, can you shed some light on how easy it is to be coerced into giving a false conviction? [09:55] Was this all on video tape? [10:15] Are there now laws in most states that confessions must be videotaped? [10:32] For the sake of time, you had a public defender, were tried by a jury, and convicted… how bad was your public defender? [12:40] There was some misconduct by a medical examiner, can you give us some details on that? [13:07] Six months after an initial examination, the medical examiner claimed to have remembered he found evidence the deceased victim was “promiscuous” in an attempt to help the prosecutor explain why DNA found at the scene didn’t match Jeff’s. [13:40] Was there prosecutorial misconduct other than that? [14:24] You had a pretty famous prosecutor, yes? [15:37] How long was the jury trial? You’re incarcerated the whole time? [16:04] Did you recant the confession right away and tell your family and lawyer? [16:59] So, you’re tried as an adult, convicted at sixteen-years-old, and sentenced for seventeen to twenty-five years? [17:28] You’re seventeen, you go to prison, are in solitary confinement for twenty-eight days at one point… how horrible was that? Was that the worst part of the experience? [18:32] Being in prison at seventeen years old… and with staff passing around pamphlets to let everyone know you’re this horrible sex offender… that had to have been the scariest thing in the whole world! [19:21] How did you get Barry Scheck and The Innocence Project to take a look at your case? [20:06] Tell us about the DNA. It’s a little bit confusing… Your DNA wasn’t on the scene… what was the new evidence that was presented? [21:15] After technological advancements in DNA testing that allowed for more specificity, it became apparent the DNA belonged to Stephen Cunningham, who had also killed and raped another person. He eventually admitted to the crime Jeff had been accused of. [21:51] In the Amazon Prime Documentary, Conviction, you talk at length about getting that news. What was that experience like? [24:54] The feeling of being released — how do you describe that? [25:28] How was your family? Did they coalesce and reengage with you after all this? [26:58] Jeff had infrequent visitors throughout his prison time, other than his mother who would visit every six months. He was putting ads in the local Sacramento newspaper for pen pals because he was so lonely and bored. He did find a pen pal who provided him moral support and kept him from going over the edge of loneliness. [27:51] It sounds like your family basically abandoned you… but you get out of prison, your wrongful conviction case gets a financial settlement, and then you decide to go to law school? [28:25] It took five years to obtain his settlement, during which Jeff struggled to find employment, housing, building social situations… but he was doing advocacy work in the meantime, and obtained scholarships to help him finish his education. Once he got his settlement, he used the funds to start the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice to help others who are wrongfully convicted and pursue policy changes. As of October 26, 2020, Jeff was officially admitted to the Bar. [30:02] How did you like law school? [32:15] You started this amazing foundation, the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice and have so far freed nine different people who were wrongfully convicted for different reasons, which is AMAZING. You’re using your settlement money to help others… I’m blown away by you. Thank you for what you’re doing for these people, selflessly. What is it about you that is compelling you to do this? [35:17] Jeff is able to remain free of angry and bitterness because he’s already lost so much of his life and doesn’t see any point in not enjoying what he has left. [35:44] It’s truly amazing. And you’re not only helping nine or ten clients, you’re pushing for policy change. What kind of traction have you gotten there? [36:01] Advocacy efforts helped pass a New York state law making video recording mandatory during interrogations, as well as ID reform and DNA database expansion. [38:15] What kind of team do you have working with you and so many initiatives? [40:46] It’s unbelievable. When people hear these stories, one thing they always ask about is immunity. Where are we in this country in holding bad judges, prosecutors, and cops accountable for their dirty tactics in wrongfully convicting people. Is there any movement forward? [44:01] How is your life these days? How is Jeffrey Deskovic doing now? [45:16] You mentioned chess… did you like The Queen’s Gambit? [45:39] What is the Queen’s Gambit, do you use it in your move? [46:12] Jeff normally opens with the French Defence, rather than the Queen’s Gambit. [46:27] Thank you for all the work you do and thank you for appearing on Open Mike. I hope everyone watching spreads word of your advocacy, and donates to your cause. Congratulations on becoming a lawyer, I know you’ll do amazing things. [47:19] Share this episode, check out the documentary Conviction on Amazon Prime, donate some money if you can. Thank you for watching and supporting Open Mike!

Brian Banks is a highly sought-after community educator, author, law school graduate, and former Michigan State Representative. But despite his tremendous career, he has experienced an equally tremendous degree of hardship along the way, from a dysfunctional childhood, to an adolescence marred by fraud charges, to corrupt political forces ousting him from office. In this episode of Open Mike, Banks discusses his personal struggles in depth and reflects on ways they’ve endowed him with the talent and tenacity to continuously create his own success. Show Notes [00:35] Brian Banks's intro and bio taken from his book, It Had 2 Happen. [01:35] Hi, Brian, thank you for being on Open Mike! [2:28] Our governor instituted some new reform in the no-fault arena, for no reason. What do you think about the no-fault changes that are currently going into effect? [04:50] Why do you think she gave a gift to the Republicans and insurance companies without thinking about her Michigan constituents? Do you have any insight on that? [08:13] You have a fascinating story and you’re very open about your story… You’re very open about the criminal activity you unfortunately got involved in, and you took responsibility. So, let’s dig into this — you grew up in Detroit, you went to Denby High School, and you dropped out your senior year. Give us a brief version about how that happened. [10:15] Due to a troubled home life, Brian started skipping class for weeks on end, after transferring to a different school. He eventually got a job, started hanging out with the wrong people, and started committing credit card and check fraud. [12:43] Eventually, Brian was charged on seventeen counts of fraud. [14:31] Eventually, he was sentenced to a year probation with the first six months on a tether, in lieu of jail… the tether was impeding his ability to land a job, so Brian successfully wrote, filed, and argued a motion to remove the tether. The next day, he obtained his GED and enrolled in Wayne State University, with aspirations of becoming an attorney. [18:03] What year did you get into law school? [18:28] Did you take the bar exam? [18:44] For those who don’t know, Michigan lawyers have to go through a process called “character and fitness” where they’re vetted to ensure they’re up to state standards to practice law. Because of Brian’s history, they would not let him be a licensed attorney in the state. [20:31] When someone experiences poverty, it’s a domino effect. Pair that with a felony conviction, it’s incredibly hard to obtain gainful employment. [21:36] When are you giving it another shot? [22:17] You go through the process, they pass you, and then you have to take the bar exam again? [22:59] Let’s talk about your time in the Michigan state legislature… can you tell us why you decided to run for Congress, here in Michigan? [26:09] During Brian’s first term, he had 100% attendance and a 100% voting record. Because of his experiences, he was compelled to make sure his constituents’ voices were represented at the capitol. The first community event he held was for ex-offenders, to help get their records expunged. [27:03] In 2014, Brian was re-elected with more votes than in his 2012 run. He was also elected by his colleagues as chairman of the Detroit Black Caucus. [27:13] Let’s talk about that — a very powerful Democratic caucus. What was that like, walking in as chairman after all that you went through? [28:36] As chairman, Brian was essentially the most powerful African American in the state legislature. He started making enemies because he started taking some unpopular positions. [29:03] What do you think were your most unpopular decisions in 2015, leading up to your 2016 experience? [31:38] You’re thwarting a powerful Detroit mayor and have an upcoming election for your third term… as this is happening, people are running against you… there are rumors that people within your own party are putting others up against you… and one day, you’re sitting at home, and get a knock on your door from a couple FBI agents. Take us through that story. [32:37] Do you believe the mayor put someone up against you? [34:11] Brian was accused by the then Republican Attorney General of improperly paying back a 2010 loan, so he hired an attorney to represent him. His attorney convinced him to plead guilty, after a long, drawn-out process. [34:55] Brian was ultimately able to get the felony charges dropped, but he had to resign from office. It was clear that the entire process was political, and other colleagues wanted him out of the way. [35:48] While many wrote Brian off, he started a successful consulting agency and still conducts educational, community outreach events. He realized he doesn’t need a title to serve. [36:43] Do you think you’re going to run again for a third term? [38:46] If you want to learn more about Brian’s life in detail, check out his book, It Had 2 Happen! [39:05] Thank you to Brian Banks for coming on Open Mike! [40:52] If you think someone would enjoy this episode, pass it along, subscribe, like. And tell us who you’d like to be on Open Mike! We will bring them to you. Thank you for watching and listening!

At the age of 16, Mario Bueno was convicted of second-degree murder and spent the next nineteen years in prison — three of which were in solitary confinement. Today, he is a reform expert, author, scholar, and co-founder of LUCK, Inc., an organization dedicated toward mentoring vulnerable populations within the Detroit Metropolitan Area. On this episode of Open Mike, Mario takes the reins and describes the effects prison had on his formative years, the spiritual awakenings he experienced along the way, and community outreach programs he’s currently engaged with. Show Notes [00:13] Mario Bueno’s background and bio [00:59] Mario, welcome to the show! [01:28] At age sixteen you were convicted of second-degree murder of a twenty-seven-year-old drug dealer… did you please guilty to that murder? [02:49] You maintained your innocence, but you were found guilty in the second trial? [04:02] It sounds like, now, you admit that you were involved in that murder? [05:35] One of the problems with the criminal justice system is that it pits victim and perpetrator against each other and can prevent the offender from truly owning up to what they’ve done. [06:07] We have an 87% recidivism rate within nine years of someone’s release from prison. [07:46] To be able to truly convey remorse to a victim or victim’s family is restorative justice. Mario’s nonprofit, Luck, Inc. focuses on this type of justice through peer mentoring of at-risk populations. [08:45] What was prison like once you admitted responsibility and reached out to the victim’s family? Were you trying to help other prisoners come to their truth as well? What was that process like? [12:27] The year you spent in Oakland County solitary as a sixteen-year-old… was that the worst year out of the twenty you spent in prison? [13:09] We need to reexamine the practice of solitary confinement — it’s inhumane. [15:11] It took a few years for your personal and spiritual transformation to really sink in and manifest, it sounds like? [16:08] Mario wrote a thesis titled, Incarceration of Adolescents in Adult Prisons: Adults’ Recollections of their Experiences and its Impact on Adult Adjustment in which he measured juveniles who were housed with adults and how they cope with the outside world once they’re released. One of the findings was that in order for juveniles to survive an adult prison, they have to become “conscious sociopaths” as a coping mechanism. [20:20] There’s so much to unpack. You’re a McNair Scholar, creator of a nonprofit with twelve employees, author of two books — Reformed: Memoir of a Juvenile Killer and Never Going Back, which you wrote during the pandemic lockdown… [21:58] There are 2,400 parolees in Detroit at any given time and 75% of them are unemployed. There are 8,400 people on felony probationers at any given time and 45% are unemployed. Mario had to create his own employment opportunities because, even with his prolific output, he’s unable to apply for and get a traditional job. [26:29] You said you were kicked out of one of your prisons… why was that? It was making money stuff, not violent stuff? [30:30] Mario details the poker and tobacco schemes he ran in prison and how a heart-to-heart with a warden influenced him to change his perspective and his behavior while he fulfilled the rest of his sentence. [34:40] If you shift your belief system, you can shift cycles you find yourself stuck in. [34:50] What did you change after coming to that realization? [36:38] What are you doing right now, through your organizations, to help Detroiters and Michiganders? [37:11] Mario is a community engagement coordinator for the Youth Justice Fund, servicing juvenile lifers who are returning back to the community. Luck, Inc. is also helping parolees find housing after extended sentences and helping guide them along their journey. [41:17] We’re spending $2.2 billion on the Michigan Department of Corrections and $123 million on reentry. [41:48] If you’re a parolee, there are government programs and amazing people like you who can provide support and consulting to help them back on their feet. But if you’re exonerated for a crime you didn’t commit, you get nothing. There are no benefits, the government won’t pay for any personal coaching. Did you know about that difference? [52:15] Mario, I don’t think we’ve ever had a guest on Open Mike who I’ve let just talk and talk — but your stories and energy are so damn good and infectious and meaningful and powerful! And I commend you for everything you’re doing and everything you’ve learned and how you’re giving back to the community. I smell a movie coming! [54:08] When we believe we’re designed to succeed, we develop a relationship with self. And a relationship with self that’s defined by love allows us to love others. Hurt people hurt others. [55:50] The services in our system must be better. A greater percentage of the billions spent on the system has to be allocated toward rehabilitation and helping people. [56:30] It was an honor to have you on, Mario — go do God’s work! [56:45] Mario Bueno — there was something about the way he talked and the messaging he delivered that was fascinating and moving. If you know of someone who could be moved by his message, please share, subscribe. Thanks for watching us on Open Mike —until next time!

John S. Cooper is the executive director of Safe & Just Michigan, an organization that advances policies that end Michigan’s over-use of incarceration and promote community safety and healing. As currently constituted, Michigan’s criminal justice system prioritizes punishment, over public safety. Most policies emphasize being tough on crime instead of helping people get back on their feet. Check out the latest installment of Open Mike for John’s insights on how we can better advocate for the 2 million Michiganders with criminal records, ways to influence legislators to pass holistic, crime reduction bills, as well as exciting, statewide developments in criminal record expungement. Show Notes [00:21] John Cooper’s background and bio as Executive Director of Safe & Just Michigan [00:53] Welcome to Open Mike, John! [01:12] Where are you calling in from, so our viewers and listeners are in the know? [01:47 Before we jump in, what does Safe & Just Michigan do? What are you all about? [02:55] Is Michigan too tough on criminals? [03:16] As currently constituted, Michigan’s criminal justice system is about punishment, not public safety — policies emphasize being tough on crime instead of helping people get back on their feet. We hold their criminal records over their heads for the rest of their lives. [04:48] If there were no prison, what would deter people from committing crimes? [05:17] Some crimes originate as lack of opportunity. If you throw a poor person into jail for committing a poverty-related crime, nothing is going to change unless you address those underlying problems. When they’re released, it will be worse because they will have fewer job opportunities due to their criminal record. It’s a self-replicating cycle. [06:16] What does Safe & Just Michigan advocate for instead of prison time? [06:50] Half of all criminal offenses in Michigan are traffic offenses. The majority of those are low-level misdemeanors, such as driving with a suspended license. 5% of Michigan drivers get their licenses suspended annually. 95% of those suspensions are because the person is too poor to pay a fine. The issue is poverty, not public safety. [08:09] What is your thought process on drunk driving that doesn’t injure anyone or driving without a valid license? Is jail a deterrent for those types of offenses? [11:08] Are you working on influencing legislature to change the laws surrounding posting bail? [11:27] At any given time, there are about 8,000 people in Michigan who are in jail. 50% of them are held pre-trial because they can’t post bail. Most bail postings are less than $5,000 and correlate to low-level misdemeanors. Yet, we have a bail system that operates under the assumption that most people should pay pre-trial, which is inconsistent with our Constitution as shown by the SCOTUS case United States v. Salerno. [12:53] The Bail Project is a national nonprofit organization that pays bail for people in need, reuniting families and restoring the presumption of innocence. The Bail Project currently operates in 9 cities around the country, including Detroit. [15:38] 90% of people who post bail show up to their court dates — if you spend that money, you’re going to want it back. People whose bails are paid for courtesy of The Bail Project still show up for court when it’s not their money to recoup. [16:20] Is it true that Michiganders have longer sentences than other states? [17:52] 20% of people charged in Michigan are charged habitually. The length of prison sentences has increased dramatically over the last 25 years, partially because lower-level offenders, especially drug offenders, are not being sent to prison as often. [19:32] Michigan had 37,000 – 38,000 people in the prison system prior to the pandemic. It’s currently down several thousand, although due more to lower of admissions than more parolees… the vast majority of people in the system are ineligible for parole because they haven’t fulfilled terms of their sentences. [20:45] How many people are in the prison system due to marijuana-related offenses? [21:44] That brings us to expungement… can you explain what it is, who’s eligible, and what’s going on with expungement in Michigan? [25:48] There are roughly 2 million people in Michigan with criminal records, yet only 2,000 – 3,000 records are expunged each year. [26:00] Is every type of felony expungable? [26:57] Tell us about the recent traffic offense expungement laws that passed — did Safe & Just Michigan play a role in that? [27:25] The first goal of this bill package is to expand eligibility for the petition process. The second was to bring expungement policy more in line with charging practices. [29:01] Did these bills make it easier for people to file for an expungement without the expense of an attorney? [29:18] Michigan has passed a “Clean Slate Bill” where if someone with a criminal record stays out of trouble for ten years, their record will automatically be sealed/expunged. [29:40] How does someone watching or listening to this episode know how to verify whether they can check “no” on a job or housing application asking about criminal history? [30:20] Before the bill goes into effect in October 2022, Safe & Just Michigan will create a database/infrastructure where people can check the status of their record and whether their offenses have been sealed. [34:14] The reality is that every state has hundreds of thousands of people with criminal records and we, as a society have a duty to clean those up so people can move on with their lives. [34:41] Annually, there are $87 billion in lost productivity that arises from people underemployed or locked out of the labor force due to criminal records.  [34:54] Over a ten-year period, University of Michigan Law School studied outcomes for people with expunged records. They discovered that within a year of their records being sealed, their incomes, on average, went up 23% and employment rates went up 11%. They also looked at recidivism rates and discovered these people commit crimes at rates equal to or less than the general public. [36:33] In April this law goes into effect… but it may be a couple years before we see the automatic expungements, yes? [37:03] In April, the law that advocates for an expanded petition process goes into effect. [37:27] The State Court Administrative Office has an MC227 form that guides a person through the expungement application process as well as an MC228 form that one would hand to a judge if you successfully navigate the hearing process. [38:20] If anyone has eligibility under the current law, please apply soon! Historically, it’s a process that takes six-to-nine-months. [39:15] Thank you to John Cooper for his admirable, hard work and for appearing on Open Mike! [40:05] Make sure to check out Safe & Just Michigan. If you know someone with a criminal record, forward them this podcast so they can educate themselves on the expungement process. [40:21] Thanks for checking out Open Mike — we’ll see you next time!

Tricia Rojo Bushnell is the Executive Director of the Midwest Innocence Project, which works to free innocent people convicted of crimes they did not commit. Megan Crane is Co-Director at MacArthur Justice Center, an organization that fights cases to right individual wrongs, and confront racial and social inequality. Together, they have partnered to demand effective and sustainable reform of the criminal justice system. In this episode, they discuss encouraging, new trends in the judicial system, recent wins their organizations have landed, and what the future holds for the American mass incarceration crisis. Show Notes [01:03] Welcome to Tricia Rojo Bushnell and Megan Crane! [01:18] Tricia, let’s start with you! Give us a little bit about your background and The Midwest Innocence Project, the clinic you’re currently working on. [02:20] Tricia, you are an attorney as well, correct? [02:59] Megan Crane, what are you up to with the MacArthur Justice Center? [04:39] The litigation you’re discussing… how does it differ from a normal 6500 Motion that has to be filed for relief from judgment? [05:54] If there is clear misconduct in their case, many exonerees will file a civil suit against the state, county, police department, etc. if it’s clear there was misconduct throughout the process. [06:47] Tricia, tell us about this partnership between The Midwest Innocence Project and MacArthur Justice Center and how it helps get people who are wrongfully convicted out of prison. [08:34] You’re covering five states and the majority is coming out of a single city… what are the trends you’re seeing that are coming out of St. Louis? [09:12] There have been historic problems with law enforcement in St. Louis… it hasn’t had the same type of reckoning that cities like Chicago and Detroit have had with their police departments and prosecutors’ offices. [12:44] Is your focus more on prevention of wrongful conviction, or getting the wrongfully convicted released from prison, or both? [15:54] Michigan does have some great innocence organizations, but who’s advocating the legislature for change? [16:55] I love that you’re finding these problems in cases and bringing it to legislators’ attentions, urging them to change laws. And it sounds like you’re getting some amazing traction with the legislature and governor in Kansas who are creating and passing these protective laws. Are you finding they’re receptive to your requests? [18:47] Have you been successful in keeping the corruption of jail house informants to a minimum? [20:16] Have you had all of those requests passed in any one state? [20:54] Megan, what are some initiatives you and MacArthur are working on to fix these problems? [21:39] The Missouri public defender system is run by people trying to do the right thing who haven’t received the bare minimum amount of money from the state to adequately represent clients. [23:40] People become public defenders because they have a passion for it, but they’re fighting with their hands tied behind their back. [24:56] The Bail Project is doing incredible work across the nation as a critical tool to prevent needless incarceration oftentimes caused by racial and economic disparities. [25:31] The lawsuit that you’re talking about — are you gaining traction on that currently? [26:40] Oftentimes people facing charges are poor, uneducated, and are handed an attorney whose case history is hard to verify… there’s no Google star-rating. In all the cases we’ve looked at, an attorney has been disbarred or reprimanded after wrongful convictions where people have served years behind bars. There’s no system of accountability. What can these people do to protect themselves? [28:23] Tricia is one of the 2% of American lawyers who are Latina. When you create a public defender’s association or community of lawyers that is predominantly upper-middle class and white, you create an environment of poor communication and cultural barriers that keep lawyers from properly hearing their clients. [29:15] We’re at a point where we have to be reckoning with the role systemic racism plays in both prosecution and defense attorneys unconsciously improperly representing people of color. [32:47] It’s very difficult to hold corrupt people within the judicial system accountable because of qualified immunity and the fact that they keep moving and ascending higher in the ranks. [34:53] MacArthur focuses on the legal aspect of what happens when someone who is wrongfully imprisoned sues the bad actors that led to their conviction. Most of the time the bad actors are insulated and protected by the legal doctrine of qualified immunity. The good news is that there is bipartisan support against qualified immunity and there are jurisdictions across the country looking at ending it. [37:35] Tricia, you had something exciting happen at your office last week. Can you take us through what happened with your client, Olin Pete Coones? [40:07] How much time did it take from the time you heard of Pete’s case to the time he got out of prison? [43:44] Tricia, I was going through the website and saw another client of yours, Michael Politte. Another fourteen-year-old who was wrongly convicted of his mother’s murder and has since spent his life in prison… You’re doing amazing work — if any of our audience want to help, how can they? [44:12] To help, visit the Midwest Innocence Project website, and you can learn about multiple ways to help. They will soon be releasing their annual report which contains information you can send legislators, clients, prosecutors, asking for them to look into creating conviction integrity units, provide funding for video conferencing for disabled or deaf persons to communicate with their attorneys, amongst many other initiatives. [45:55] You can also support MacArthur by visiting the MacArthur Justice Center website and going on their wrongful conviction page. Read about their projects and case… because the MacArthur Justice Center and MIP have a partnership, donations made to MIP will also support Macarthur. [47:25] The Innocence Network will also inform you about innocence organizations within your region and see briefs that are filed, current issues being dealt with, annual conferences, etc. [47:54] One of the best ways to help is also raise awareness about cases via social media. [48:10] It’s important to raise awareness because anybody could become a juror, be charged with something, be a witness, or be in some type of position to wield influence over a case. [48:58] It feels like this issue is “out there” more, and there’s a ground swell of awareness and movement starting to take off. Do you get the same sense? [50:40] Thank you to Tricia and Megan for being here, it meant a lot! [51:25] Please donate to these causes if you feel moved by any of these stories and share this episode with those who need to see it. Thank you for watching Open Mike — until next time!

Dr. Jon Gould is an internationally known expert on justice policy, social change, and government reform. An accomplished author, his book The Innocence Commission: Preventing Wrongful Convictions and Restoring the Criminal Justice System was named an Outstanding Academic Title by the American Library Association. In this episode of Open Mike, Dr. Gould walks us through the complex network of issues that has resulted in a widespread, wrongful conviction crisis affecting up to 5% of all incarcerated people. The only solution may be a comprehensive upheaval of the criminal justice system… Show Notes [00:20] Dr. Jon Gould’s background and bio [00:50] Welcome to Jon Gould! [01:14] You went to University of Michigan undergrad, Harvard for law school, Harvard for your Master’s, and ph. D at University of Chicago — you may be the smartest person I’ve had on the show! [01:53] You work at Arizona State University now… where were you before that? [02:12] Your book, The Innocence Commission: Preventing Wrongful Convictions and Restoring the Criminal Justice System, was recently named an Outstanding Academic Title by the American Library Association. Tell us why you wrote this book and what you discovered along this journey. [05:02] A lot of our recent guests have been talking about this groundswell of exposing wrongful convictions. In your opinion, how important is it to expose what’s going on, to try and give our country confidence in the criminal justice system? [06:23] What are some of the most common reasons for innocent people going to prison? [07:22] In a study Jon conducted, wrongful incarcerations oftentimes occur when prosecution doesn’t offer strong evidence. It’s counterintuitive…but these cases languish on prosecutors’ desks as they wait for more evidence to come in… they end up taking it to a grand jury, the grand jury ends up indicting… once the case gets into court, juries are much more likely to believe the person is guilty… sometimes defendants will even plead guilty or falsely confess to crimes they didn’t commit. [08:31] Now that people working in the system have identified several, core causes of wrongful incarcerations, do you think it’s getting better? [10:30] While sensational instances of wrongful convictions draw media attention, the vast majority of these convictions are inadvertently caused by well-intentioned people working on the case who have simply made mistakes caused by hyper focus or tunnel vision. Because of this, they’re much harder to identify and much harder to prevent. [13:10] Once you attach yourself to the idea that someone is a suspect, it becomes harder to distance yourself from that notion as more evidence comes in that challenges it. [16:30] Let’s talk about the near-miss study… It was a three-year study that identified ten statistically significant factors that distinguish a wrongful conviction from a “near-miss.” What were the important findings in this study and what do they mean? [21:45] A false confession gets you arrested and indicted, but it doesn’t necessarily, on its own, lead to a wrongful conviction — they can be weeded out. The period between indictment and trial is when people can be weeded out of the system before being falsely convicted. [22:25] That’s fascinating! What’s the second biggest point you took from the study? [22:40] Almost always, a combination of tunnel vision, poor defense, weak facts, and Brady violations (refusal to turn over exculpatory evidence) lead to wrongful convictions… all factors that lead to wrongful convictions need to be studied and dealt with, not just one or two. It’s a problem that needs to be solved comprehensively. [27:35] We’re not talking about hundreds… we’re talking about tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people wrongly sitting in prisons, waiting for trial, hoping for attention about their cases to get out. I don’t think anybody wants to see that continue, yet… bad cops, bad prosecutors, bad judges — do you ever see them held accountable? [29:01] For every person who is wrongly incarcerated, there’s also someone who committed the crime out on the street. Wrongful conviction cases make us less safe as a nation, and they cost us a lot of money each year in tax dollars. [29:45] Are you teaching these types of topics at ASU? What else do you teach there? [33:23] While the scandalous cases of intentional corruption within the criminal justice system cast a light on the wrongful incarceration crisis, it’s now time to focus on the tremendous number of cases that may not be as easy to identify. [36:17] Thank you to Dr. Jon Gould for coming on Open Mike! Make sure to check out his book, The Innocence Commission: Preventing Wrongful Convictions and Restoring the Criminal Justice System. [36:58] Thanks for watching Open Mike!

On April 15, 1994, two men in Kansas City, Kansas were shot dead in broad daylight. Lamonte McIntyre, an innocent seventeen-year-old, was falsely accused of the crime. Due to multiple, hideous perversions of justice, he would spend the next twenty-three years in prison. Today, he is a successful businessman and co-founder of Miracle of Innocence, a non-profit designed to get other wrongfully convicted people out of prison and provide them the resources necessary to thrive. But no amount of financial prosperity or philanthropy can make up for lost time. In this episode of Open Mike, Lamonte takes us through the events of that fateful day, breaks down the corruption that defined his trial, and explains how, after everything, he remains unbitter about his misfortune.

Crime affects all of our lives—anyone can be accused, know someone accused, or serve on a jury. Mitigation expert and author Victoria Rusk gets to the “whys” behind a crime, helping jurors, DAs, and attorneys to work for fair and appropriate punishments, in hopes of reducing the American mass incarceration crisis. Her recent book The Handbook of Mitigation has quickly become canon within the legal mitigation sphere for anyone interested in sentencing justice. How did a former broadcast journalist from Lubbock, Texas, become a leading professional advocate for fair sentencing? Find out for yourself on Episode 79 of Open Mike. Show Notes [00:27] Victoria’s background and bio. [01:31] Welcome to Victoria Rusk! [01:49] You’re a mitigation specialist — can you tell us what a mitigation specialist is? [03:06] That’s fascinating! You’re usually brought in after the conviction? [03:32] So, it’s not just death row, it’s anyone facing a serious criminal trial, and you are brought in to humanize the defendant so lawyers can argue the best they can for them? [04:55] As I mentioned in my intro, and I don’t think many people know this, Michigan has a man named Marvin Gabrion on death row. What do you do for someone like Mr. Gabrion before trial? How do you help someone facing such serious consequences? [07:27] The key in humanizing someone is to figure out how they love, and how they express and show love. [07:57] You’re dealing with some people who are hurting and killing families… how do you show their capability of love to a judge or jury? What are some examples? [09:53] Creating an atmosphere of trust and compassion with a client’s family or other loved ones will make them more inclined to freely offer up humanizing information to a jury. [12:12] We’ve talked a lot about how little resources there are for indigent defendants and you’re spending hundreds, if not thousands, of hours on an individual case. Who’s paying your bills? [13:48] The criminal justice system is broken —attorneys have hundreds and hundreds of cases… the COVID-19 pandemic has the ability to turn the criminal justice system inside out in terms of both humanizing those working within the system and those accused of a crime. [14:08] I didn’t know that anyone with a capital case was entitled to services like yours. What about in a state like Michigan that doesn’t have the death penalty unless you’re on federal land? Is there such a thing as a mitigation specialist if someone is facing life in prison without parole? [16:09] Post-conviction in mitigation is very different because there are additional politics in the process to consider and you have to really evaluate what’s going to be convincing or moving. [17:02] If you’re arguing that someone is not guilty, you may not want to be arguing mitigation… are you usually arguing mitigation when someone is likely guilty or definitely guilty? [19:41] So, it’s almost like any case… drunk driving, robbery… you can help humanize the dependent and look at the bigger picture to understand why they’re in the situation they are. You’re kind of like a social worker. [21:00] We’re talked about issues with mass incarceration and prison overcrowding in this country… how can mitigation specialization help that? [22:41] In general, besides buying your book, The Handbook for Mitigation, which every attorney in the country should get… what are your recommendations for someone who can’t afford to hire you? [23:40] There two are trainings Victoria recommends: Dr. Donna Beegle’s poverty-informed training, and Undoing Racism: The People’s Institute for Survival and Beyond. [26:06] Thank you to Victoria Rusk for being on the show and thanks for watching Open Mike Podcast!

Sean Dustin has led a tumultuous life. After a troubled childhood, he found himself in and out of state and federal prisons as an adult, serving time for drug trafficking, and fraud. After his 2006 release, he suffered with a meth amphetamine addiction before finally kicking the habit and committing himself to a life on the straight and narrow. These days he is the creator of the successful podcast, Nowhere To Go But Up, in which he chronicles the journeys of others who also come from difficult backgrounds. Hoping to help others who may be going down similar, dark paths. He is also starting a non-profit that emphasizes a holistic approach to re-entry for men going through the criminal process, from pre-trial, to halfway houses. How was he able to defeat the odds and turn his life around? Tune in to episode 78 of Open Mike Podcast to find out. Show Notes [00:10] Sean’s background and bio [­01:26] Welcome to Sean Dustin! [01:55] You implied that you hit rock bottom at one point — can you tell us about that? [03:50] This all led to a prison sentence. How many years did you spend inside? [06:55] How does a decent human being such as yourself decide that committing crime is a better way to go than getting a real job? [07:30] Sean explains how his periods of good behavior would culminate in self-indulgence, which would further escalate into selling drugs to afford to live. [08:42] Besides drug dealing, one of your preferred crimes was identity theft, is that correct? [10:33] How do people protect themselves from identity theft? [12:00] Tell us about your podcast, Nowhere To Go But Up Now. You have a lot of great reviews, what is it about? [13:45] Topics on the podcast range from personal accounts of people’s rock bottom moments, interview with politicians, Sean’s personal interests, etc. [13:51] What do you do when you’re not podcasting? [14:33] Sean is starting a non-profit that emphasizes a holistic approach to re-entry for men going through the criminal process, from pre-trial, to halfway houses. [15:38] How long have you been sober and on the straight and narrow? [17:14] What happened in December 10 that caused you to change your ways? [18:49] There are “politics” in federal prisons, whereas in county and city jails, there’s not as much of an established hierarchy [19:28] Adult slow-pitch softball helped Sean get on the straight and narrow because it gave him something to focus on as well as a different group of people to be surrounded by [21:00] You can find everything on Sean and Nowhere To Go But Up Now, here! [21:23] Sean is one of the founders of Indie Pods United, a live, virtual podcast summit. There will be over 100 different events throughout the summit which runs for twelve hours each day between November 29th and December 3rd. There will be game shows, comedians, breakout sessions, keynote speakers — if you’re a podcaster, check it out! [22:40] You find Sean on Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter [23:41] Thank you for supporting Open Mike Podcast!

In 2003, Julie Baumer took her six-week-old nephew to the hospital after noticing he was fussy, lethargic, and refusing food. It kicked off a chain reaction that ended in Julie wrongfully serving four years behind bars after prosecutors erroneously claimed she violently shook her nephew, causing permanent brain damage. A 2010 retrial confirmed the true source of her nephew’s injuries and led to her release, forcing her to pick up the pieces of a life shattered through no fault of her own. How did such an egregious breakdown in judicial process occur, yet again? Wrongful incarceration is a national crisis — what can we do to protect ourselves from similar mistreatment at the hands of a dysfunctional court system? Show Notes [00:17] Julie’s background and bio. Since her wrongful incarceration, Julie has since launched a career in real estate. [00:39] Welcome Julie Baumer and Sarah Miller to the show! [01:36] Julie, your story is heart breaking… for those who have not heard your story, we have to go back to the beginning. In 2003, your sister Victoria had a baby boy she could not take care of, correct? [02:15] You decided to adopt this baby and raise it as your own… can you take us back seventeen years and tell us what was going on? [02:46] What was going on in your life that you were able to take him? You were in your twenties, what were you doing for work? [03:50] Victoria agreed to this adoption? [04:04] The boy’s name was Phillip when he was born... and he wasn’t healthy at the beginning, was he? [05:04] You took the baby home after one week… was your sister involved at all at this point? [05:25] What happened in the four weeks between bringing Phillip home and taking him back to the hospital? [05:58] How did you find motherhood for those first weeks? [07:05] Around week five, what happened? [08:50] Who named the baby — was it you or your sister? [9:14] What happened in the ER at Mt. Clemens General? [11:50] Over the course of the weekend at the ER, a nurse noticed the circumference of Phillip’s head had grown at an alarming rate. They did an MRI and discovered brain bleeding and conducted surgery. [12:32] All weekend, how are you feeling with your newborn, soon-to-be-adopted son going through brain surgery? [13:20] Monday morning, the Macomb County Sheriff’s Office calls you? [13:55] Did they read you your Miranda Rights? [14:32] Did Phillip have any injuries in the four weeks you had him? [15:16] How many hours were you at the Sherriff’s Office? [16:18] You go to see your son at the hospital and aren’t let in by a security guard who tells you you’re a suspect. What’s going through your mind? [17:20] At any point throughout these months, did you talk to a lawyer? [18:17] Phillip was born in August… you got the call saying you were charged with first-degree child abuse in February… that’s seven months later. [18:46] The reason I’m asking a lot of this questions is I’m hoping people listening are learning. Anyone can be a potential juror or victim. [19:18] Nobody should talk to the police without a lawyer. [19:35] How did you find your criminal lawyer? [20:55] You were arraigned for first degree child abuse and pled not guilty… what happened next, how many months passed until your trial? [21:22] You were not sitting in jail that whole time, were you? [21:46] Who was your judge in Macomb County? [22:10] During these eighteen months, your lawyer is preparing a defense, allegedly? [23:50] Your attorney suggested you should hire experts which you couldn’t afford. So, he proceeded without them anyway, not knowing he could petition the judge… [24:16] If you can’t afford an expert when going against the state, the state will pay for an expert like they will pay for a court-appointed attorney.   [25:20] You weren’t allowed character witnesses? [26:49] How many days was your trial? [26:59] You called one witness on your behalf — what was her role in all this? [27:23] The trial lasted four weeks, and there were only two witnesses… what took so long? [28:05] By the time you got to trial, which is almost two years at this point, how was Phillip doing? [28:59] After this four-week trial, you’re not in custody, your family supports you… is Victoria around for any of this? [29:22] At any point, did the jury offer you a plea deal? [30:53] Playing Monday morning quarterback fifteen years later… the attorney didn’t present a defense on your behalf. [31:33] Your turned down the plea deal because you weren’t guilty, and the jury comes back guilty on one count. What goes through your head when you hear this? [33:13] You were co-raising your sister Victoria’s other son, Brandon, at this time. Was he living with you during this? [33:44] You thought that there was absolutely no way a jury would convict you… yet you sat through this four-week trial. You had to have known this wasn’t going well? [34:47] Phillip was diagnosed with cerebral palsy. The family believes Victoria was administered Pitocin during labor which caused his cerebral palsy.  [35:42] Did the attorney tell your story? That you took in your sister’s child because she couldn’t take care of him? [36:09] Sarah Miller was the jury foreman on Julie’s second trial. After it was over, they discovered that if they had any knowledge of Julie’s first trial, they weren’t allowed to participate in her second trial as to be unbiased. Julie’s second trial was a stark contrast to her first debacle of a trial. [37:30] When you were convicted, what was your sentence? [37:38] And the judge could have sentence you to a lot less. [38:31] Going to prison as an innocent woman, convicted of hurting a baby. Can you describe that? [40:33] What did you do to keep yourself busy? [41:12] Did you make any friends? [42:09] Did you feel threatened at any point? [42:41] While you were there, were you at the prison library, reading up on case law? [42:50] Who appealed your case the first time? [43:57] Eventually, the University of Michigan Innocence Clinic which opened in 2008 decided to take on Julie’s case. Based on new evidence, they requested a new trial which was accepted in 2009. [45:16] Were you in court when the judge made the decision for a new trial? Or were you in prison? [45:37] What’s going through your mind when you found out? [46:00] At this point, the Macomb County Prosecutor’s Office had the option of releasing you for time served or re-trying you. They chose the latter. Was that shocking to you? [47:31] The please they initially offered was for 1-2 years. You had already served for 4 years. That doesn’t make sense! They should have walked away! [48:09] Was Carl Marlinga the prosecutor when you were convicted the first time? Who was the prosecutor on the second trial? [49:13] Dave Moran, who runs the Innocence Clinic, hooked up with Carl Marlinga to represent you as one of your lawyers in the second trial…in the same courthouse where he used to be the prosecutor on your first case. That’s mind-blowing, how did that happen? [53:49] Second Trial was in 2010 and you so happened to have a fabulous jury foreman who happens to be sitting right here — Sarah Miller! [54:17] Had you ever sat on a jury before? [54:51] The first and second trials couldn’t have been more different. What was your impression of the trial? [56:08] As you’re listening to the prosecution witnesses, how convinced were you that Julie had hurt this baby? [56:42] Why, in your mind, did the prosecution witnesses hold more weight than the defense? [58:02] Julie, you had believed Phillip suffered cerebral palsy and brain bleeding from administration of Pitocin during labor… it turns out he had suffered a stroke, called a venous sinus thrombosis, correct? [59:10] Sarah, did you think that the stroke was a made-up defense? [1:00:25] How many days did the jury deliberate? [1:00:32] During the first go-around, how many guilty votes were there? [1:01:58] Sarah, we know your ultimate verdict was not guilty… take us through the two days of how the jury reached that decision. [1:04:15] A nurse on the jury asserted, from a medical perspective, that Phillip was not abused, which facilitated conversation amongst the jury. [1:05:38] Were you all confident when you came to the verdict? [1:06:45] “Reasonable doubt” exists to protect people from situations just like this. [1:08:11] Sarah, if someone listening is about to sit on a jury, what’s your message for them? [1:09:19] Julie, I can only imagine how it must have felt to hear “not guilty” the second time around. How did it feel? [1:11:03] Did you ever get an apology from Eric Smith? [1:11:54] Sarah, after all that, you must have been proud of yourself! [1:12:48] How did the two of you hook up after the trial? [1:14:50] You’ve been free for ten years… have you had any updates on Phillip? [1:18:48] There have been no run-ins or interactions with him and his adoptive parents since the trial? [1:19:23] Are you holding out hope that after he turns eighteen he might look you up? [1:19:37] How is your sister doing? [1:20:32] One of the craziest things in our legal system is that if you are imprisoned and released, you are a parolee — you have medical benefits, housing benefits, employment assistance, etc. If you go to prison and you’re wrongfully incarcerated, you’re a free person, but you get no benefits. Nothing. [1:22:03] Thank you both for being here, and I’m so sorry you had to go through this. Wishing you the best of luck. [1:22:46] Thank you for listening to Open Mike this week, with Julie Baumer and Sarah Miller.

Everyone inevitably approaches mortality — why do some people seem to linger on in this world as spirits, while most don’t? We all know the well-established Hollywood trope of “unfinished business,” but paranormal investigator Kris Sumner thinks the answer is more complicated than that. Since the 2014 launch of Soul Sisters Paranormal, her all-female paranormal investigation group, Kris has investigated dozens of famous hotspots for supernatural activity, including the Lizzie Borden House, St. Augustine Lighthouse, and West Virginia Penitentiary. Just in time for Halloween, this spooky installment of Open Mike Podcast covers a variety of phantasmagoric topics, including: how to proceed if you think your house is haunted, ghostly methods to communicate with the other realm, and strategies to determine whether your “haunting” is environmental vs. uncanny. Show Notes [00:18] Kris’s background [00:57] Welcome to our guest, Kris Sumner! [01:01] How the heck did you get involved in ghost hunting? [02:23] Is Soul Sisters Paranormal a business or a hobby? [03:25] How many investigations have you done to date? [04:10] What is your day job? [05:17] This could be an obvious question…but you do believe in ghosts? [05:57] How do you decide what locations to go to? Are people calling you, believing their locations or businesses are haunted or do you go off your own research? [07:19] In the Harry Potter books, Sirius Black dies, and Harry tries to figure out if he’ll come back as a ghost… he’s told, “not all spirits and ghosts come back.” Do you have a theory as to who stays back and who disappears and why? [11:24] That third choice, you’re suggesting people have a choice over whether or not they go to tell? [12:06] What does EVP stand for? [12:35] For your Lizzie Borden investigation, there was no visual documentation, it was all audio? [14:38] All videos of Soul Sisters Paranormal investigations can be found on their website and YouTube Channel! [14:58] I was told there were some places in Michigan that you want to investigate! Tell us about those. [16:07] Is there a club or organization for paranormal investigators like yourself? [17:47] The equipment I saw you use in your investigation… who created these and how did they come about? [21:04] The voices that were recorded in the Lizzie Borden episode were faint, but it was compelling and pretty eerie to hear a voice just pop out! It definitely sounds like a human voice. [23:21] If someone is watching or listening to this podcast and they think their house may be haunted… what is the best way for them to draw out the spirits and communicate with them? [26:52] Let me guess… your favorite holiday is Halloween? [27:43] Everyone check out the Soul Sisters Paranormal website and YouTube Channel! [27:52] Thank you for coming on, Kris! Let us know next time you’re in Michigan and maybe we’ll tag along on your investigation. [28:36] Thank you for tuning in to Open Mike Podcast!

Coming out as a member of the LGBTQ+ community can be a sensitive, complex process for someone to navigate. Enter Annie Henderson, Life coach, educator, consultant, and coming-out coach. After getting married at age nineteen, Annie embarked on her own journey of rejecting her people-pleasing ways and embracing her authentic, full self. These days she helps people who are struggling through a uniquely curated combination of counseling, compassion, and alternative therapies. Take a listen to Episode 75 of Open Mike Podcast for more information about her vocation as a coming-out coach, as well as her thoughts on the current progress of LGBTQ+ rights in a deeply divided nation. Show Notes [00:23] Annie’s background and bio. [01:40] Introducing our guest, Annie Henderson! [02:55] You help kids and family as a life coach —how did you get into that particular business, and what makes a good life coach? [05:15] You say you’re an EFT… what does that mean? [06:35]Emotional Freedom Techniques (EFT) are actually physical treatments, they’re not energy-based, and they start conversations? [08:06] This is not just for emotional issues, this is also treats physical pain? [08:45] You also specialize as a coming-out coach for the LGBTQ community. I’ve never heard that term before. Can you take us through that process? [10:36] You were married, had a daughter…how old is your daughter? [10:47] Does she know your whole history now? [11:32] Were there many gay people in your high school? [12:05] In high school, did you have an inkling? [13:16] Does conversion therapy still exist these days? [14:25] You do hear stories these days of kids coming out earlier and earlier. Does it feel like it’s easier and a more accepting process today? [15:00] Coming out to your friends and family while you had a husband and child must have been very difficult. What was that process like? [18:11] Did you lose any friends during your coming-out process? [18:48] If someone is showing up in your social media feed and they’re draining you, you should not feel guilty about hiding or snoozing them in the name of self-preservation. [19:27] What would you say to someone listening who’s afraid to come out, what are some things you’d tell them to make the transition easier? [21:49] “Worry is a misuse of the imagination” —Dan Zadra [22:13] Suicide rates are really high in the LGBTQ+ community. Does this come up in your coaching or have you had any experience with this? [24:34] Annie and members of her church have started a community of support for LGBTQ+ people and allies that can be found on Facebook [24:50] October is LGBTQ+ History Month. How far do you think we’ve come as a society, and where do you think we’re going in this movement? [25:38] There have been great strides that have been made… however, there’s current discussion of removal of Marriage Equality and further protection needed, so there is still a long way to go. [26:49] Is private coaching your main focus right now? [28:06] It’s important to not allow certain areas of our life to become depleted while working on other areas. [28:31] You mention how people-pleasing is such an issue in current society… what are your top five tips for people-pleasers? [31:05] Oftentimes we apologize for things we don’t need to be sorry for when we can easily modify our language to not consistently reinforce guilt. [33:20] Thank you to Annie Henderson for being on the show! You can find out more about Annie on her social, website, blog, or through her latest book, She Did It: 20 Inspiring Stories from Female Entrepreneurs Who Said Yes to Success [33:53] Thanks for tuning in to Open Mike!

For the last eleven years, Nick Hathaway has been a Referee in Wayne County Circuit Court’s Family Division, dealing with cases of serious child abuse and neglect, as well as juvenile criminal matters. Currently, he’s running as a judicial candidate for the Wayne County Third Circuit Court, targeting one of two vacant seats. In this episode of Open Mike, Nick recounts his career history, describes the type of judge he aims to be, and details his vision to positively impact the community. Show Notes [00:35] Introducing Nick Hathaway! [01:03] Nick, you’re running for Third Circuit Judge — why do you want to be judge? [01:10] Nick’s background [01:55] For our listeners and viewers who don’t know what a referee is vs. a judge, could you please explain? [02:40] Your wife Dana is a sitting Wayne County Circuit Court Judge…you have many other family members who are sitting judges, the Hathaway name is well-known here in Michigan. Is that another reason you want to do this, to be part of the family? [04:08] How many seats are open in Wayne County right now? [05:08] Where did you go to law school? [05:18] Was becoming a judge always a dream of yours? [06:36] What are some of the biggest problems you’re experiencing now, dealing with the family division and child protective matters in Wayne County? [07:12] Nick discusses the last ten years of juvenile delinquency, criminalization of juvenile issues that would formerly be handled within the community and the cycle of poverty and substance abuse. [08:32] We incarcerate too many people in this country… over the last thirty years, crime rates have been steadily declining, yet our rates of incarceration have increased. [09:56] There are four people running for two seats in Wayne County… why do you think should the voters pick you? [11:40] Nick is committed to service, wants to do the job correctly, has been making judicial decisions in Michigan’s busiest court for the last eleven years, and has a wealth of support to draw upon. [12:04] If you’re listening to this, make sure to vote on November 3rd! [12:16] Thanks to our guest, Nick Hathaway! [13:01] Thank you for watching and listening to Open Mike!

Everyone remembers where they were on of September 11, 2001, a day that forever changed the fabric of our country. On that fateful morning, Virginia Buckingham was working as the head of Boston Logan International Airport — the departure site for the airliners that slammed into the Twin Towers. In this powerful installment of Open Mike Podcast, Virginia recalls managing the surreal events of that day, dealing with the sociopolitical fallout of unfairly being blamed for the attacks, and rebuilding her life after being scapegoated for unthinkable tragedy.

Emily Gaudreau was on assignment shooting Playboy’s 2008 “Party School of the Year” showcase when she put her camera away, vowing to never use it again. Since then, she has aligned with her true purpose as a sexual abuse prevention advocate and parenting coach. In this episode of Open Mike, Emily and Mike discuss crucial topics the modern parent needs to know about, including at-home learning, sex trafficking, smart device usage, and drug experimentation. Show Notes [0:47] Introducing our guest, Emily Gaudreau! [01:41] Emily’s background [02:40] You used to be a photographer — how did it transport you into this new realm of work? [05:02] Do you have formal training in social work or psychology? [7:15] Emily discusses the blurry nature of “sex-positive” pornography and how it can lead to violence [9:36] Sex trafficking is scary as hell and it’s a lot more prolific than people realize. How do you keep younger kids safe when monitoring them is so hard with modern technology? [11:12] What’s the age when you’ll give your daughter her own smart phone? [14:08] Other than restricting phone usage, what else can parents do to protect our kids? [15:30] Premature exposure to pornography can cause kids to display signs of abuse [18:40] How prolific is premature exposure to pornography? What is the conversation we should be having with our kids? [19:47] Kids of divorced homes are 20% more likely to be victims of sexual abuse [22:12] In an ideal world, sex ed comes from parents… how do you stop kids from hearing from their friends first? [24:14] Do you find that kids are more on alert these days? [26:54] Check out How to Raise a Maverick and hit Emily up on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter! [27:03] What does “maverick” mean to you? [30:10] Without guidance, teens having sex are a little clueless… in an ideal world, are kids going to figure it out together, themselves? [35:25] Sex ed in the United States is hyper-focused on gender studies in younger people and overlooks fundamental issues like consent [37:43] Are you for or against allowance? What’s the best way to give your kids allowance? [41:14] What’s your take on alcohol and parents who allow their kids to have a sip or two (or more) when they’re underage? [44:15] What’s your best advice for parents who know their kids will be around marijuana and want to experiment? What’s the safest way to deal with that? [49:06] There’s a difference between not allowing something in your home and having an open level of communication. The home needs to be a safe space with standards that are consistently upheld. [53:10} What’s your best advice for parents of younger kids, 7-10 years old, about whether they should be the friend or parent figure? [55:13] Do you have any tips on how to keep kids focused during the COVID-19 online learning process? [57:15] You have a course for parents including a coaching session called “Young, Wild, and Safe.” What does that involve? [58:48] How would you summarize the absolute best parenting advice you could give someone? [59:55] Thank you to today’s guest, Emily Gaudreau! [1:00:08] Remember to investigate How to Raise a Maverick and Emily’s social: Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter [1:00:33] Thanks for tuning in to Open Mike Podcast — we’ll see you next time!

In 1992, singer-songwriter Jimmy Dennis was wrongfully convicted of murder. He was sent to death row for 25 years until his 2017 exoneration. Miraculously, he avoided execution. Who’s to blame for this atrocity? A corrupt Philadelphia police department. Prosecution that destroyed evidence. A fundamentally broken criminal justice system. How do we repair a structure that often administers law, but not always justice? Show Notes [0:40] Jimmy’s background [1:46] Welcoming today’s guest, Jimmy Dennis [3:40] You were a musician, a singer in the early 90’s in Philadelphia… tell us about your life before you were wrongfully incarcerated? [7:38] Jimmy discusses former systemic Philadelphia police corruption and destruction of evidence that affected his case [9:36] The same police officers in Jimmy’s case acted similarly to more than twenty other death row inmates [11:21] Nothing tied you to this murder. You had a solid alibi, the dozens of witnesses were coerced, there was no evidence. Witnesses said the perpetrator was 5’10” and you’re 5’4.” [14:05] Were you ever in the system before this? [15:53] You had a hired attorney who did not provide a good defense for you… Did you know this was happening as it happened? [18:51] Tell us about the three eyewitnesses at trial who were coerced into giving false testimony. How did that feel to have them point at you? [21:02] How did your lawyer do with cross-examining these people? [22:10] Tell us about the missing welfare receipt that proved your innocence. What is a welfare receipt? [24:17] How did your new lawyer find that receipt in 1998? [29:24] Did anything happen to the police officers or prosecutor who destroyed the evidence, was there any discipline? [30:00] If all of us want to a fair and just society, we need to advocate for discipline for corrupt prosecutors and police. [32:09] What was it like spending 25 years on death row for a crime you didn’t commit? [34:41] Over those 25 years… what was the delay in your execution? [37:02] You mentioned the support you received from around the world, Susan Sarandon, Ed Asner, and others… to rely on celebrity attention for a desired outcome is not easy, is it? [42:50] If you were a juror on your trial, would you have convicted yourself? [45:02] Have you ever talked to any of the jurors? [46:45] A jury member has a duty to listen to the evidence and listen to it properly [49:14] All of this new evidence that exonerated you was hidden and appeared years later… based on the incomplete picture the jury was presented, do you blame them? [50:32] How old are you now? Tell us about your family situation now. [51:28] How’s your relationship with your daughter who was born while you were incarcerated? Were you able to mend it? [53:52] You’re back to creating music — let’s take a listen to your song, Hate the Skin I’m In feat. Gwen Jackson, available on all platforms. Can you tell us about it? [58:28] What’s the future for you and music? [59:11] Check out Jimmy’s YouTube channel! [1:02:30] The federal court said you were innocent and released you once you signed a no-contest plea waiving any wrongful compensation money. That would have been millions of dollars. You chose to sign it rather than subject yourself to a retrial. Is that correct? [1:07:42] Jimmy explains that although he has PTSD, he uses his energy to fight for justice. [1:10:05] Thank you to our guest, Jimmy Davis [1:10:40] We hear so many cases of wrongful convictions, and Jimmy’s is another one that proves our criminal justice system needs significant change. [1:11:02] Thank you for watching and listening to Open Mike!

What type of person would willingly allow themselves to be incarcerated for 60 days? As a former Corrections Officer and Military Intelligence Officer, Mark Din is no stranger to high-stakes situations. However, nothing could have prepared him for life on the inside when he agreed to be locked up for A&E’s hit reality TV series, 60 Days In. This week’s episode of Open Mike explores the gritty realities of the American prison system as seen through the eyes of an inside operative whose experiences were recorded and broadcasted on network television. Din discusses everything from racial segregation, to corrupt staff, to abysmal food quality, casting an authentic light on the sometimes bleak conditions endured by the 2.2 million Americans who are currently incarcerated. Show Notes [1:10] Place welcome our guest, Mark Din! [1:46] Why would you volunteer to spend 60 days in jail? [1:53] Mark’s background in the military and as a corrections officer [4:04] Overall, was it a good experience? What are you doing now? [5:00] Wasn’t the premise of the show to bring you and others in to ferret out fraud, abuse, bad actors in the prison system? [7:22] What was the crime you allegedly committed to be “incarcerated” for 60 days? [9:11] How nerve-wracking and scary was this experience? [10:24] Even though it’s TV, if somebody wants to hurt you, they could, right? [11:16] What were the actual prisoners told about the cameras around the facility? [12:36] Did they ever get wind that you were a plant in there, spying on the system? [13:51] You lasted the whole 60 days… did you get paid well for this? [14:37] How bad is the food in there? [15:31] Did you lose a lot of weight? [16:07] Did you make any friends while you were in there? [17:50] Check out Mark’s Podcast and YouTube channel, Awkward Fist Bump Productions! [20:21] Do you think this series of shows has done anything to make jails safer or more honest? [21:02] Is this more about finding bad guards and loopholes in management or how inmates are getting contraband or other illegal activities? [23:04] If bad guards are being fired, that’s a good change. As well as for other guards around the country, knowing that this show is out there, and they could lose their jobs for corruption. [26:36] Do people recognize you now and come up to you asking for selfies and autographs? [29:25] What was the scariest thing that happened to you in those 60 days? [31:50] You can see Mark on A&E’s 60 Days In, season five! [32:42] Thanks for tuning in to this week’s Open Mike Podcast!