Podcast appearances and mentions of Gerard Manley Hopkins

In this interview, Lamorna Ash, author of Don't Forget We're Here Forever: A New Generation's Search for Religion, and one of my favourite modern writers, talked about working at the Times Literary Supplement, netball, M. John Harrison, AI and the future of religion, why we should be suspicious of therapy, the Anatomy of Melancholy, the future of writing, what surprised her in the Bible, the Simpsons, the joy of Reddit, the new Pope, Harold Bloom, New Atheism's mistakes, reading J.S. Mill. I have already recommended her new book Don't Forget We're Here Forever, which Lamorna reads aloud from at the end. Full transcript below.Uploading videos onto Substack is too complicated for me (it affects podcast downloads somehow, and the instructions to avoid this problem are complicated, so I have stopped doing it), and to upload to YouTube I have to verify my account but they told me that after I tried to upload it and my phone is dead, so… here is the video embedded on this page. I could quote the whole thing. Here's one good section.Lamorna: Which one would you say I should do first after The Sea, The Sea?Henry: Maybe The Black Prince.Lamorna: The Black Prince. Great.Henry: Which is the one she wrote before The Sea, The Sea and is just a massive masterpiece.Lamorna: I'll read it. Where do you stand on therapy? Do you have a position?Henry: I think on net, it might be a bad thing, even if it is individually useful for people.Lamorna: Why is that?Henry: [laughs] I didn't expect to have to answer the question. Basically two reasons. I think it doesn't take enough account of the moral aspect of the decisions being made very often. This is all very anecdotal and you can find yourself feeling better in the short term, but not necessarily in the long-- If you make a decision that's not outrageously immoral, but which has not had enough weight placed on the moral considerations.There was an article about how lots of people cut out relatives now and the role that therapy plays in that. What I was struck by in the article that was-- Obviously, a lot of those people are justified and their relatives have been abusive or nasty, of course, but there are a lot of cases where you were like, "Well, this is a long-term decision that's been made on a short-term basis." I think in 10 years people may feel very differently. There wasn't enough consideration in the article, at least I felt, given to how any children involved would be affected later on. I think it's a good thing and a bad thing.Lamorna: I'm so with you. I think that's why, because also the fact of it being so private and it being about the individual, and I think, again, there are certain things if you're really struggling with that, it's helpful for, but I think I'm always more into the idea of communal things, like AAA and NA, which obviously a very particular. Something about doing that together, that it's collaborative and therefore there is someone else in the room if you say, "I want to cut out my parent."There's someone else who said that happened to me and it was really hard. It means that you are making those decisions together a little bit more. Therapy, I can feel that in friends and stuff that it does make us, even more, think that we are these bounded individuals when we're not.Henry: I should say, I have known people who've gone to therapy and it's worked really well.Lamorna: I'm doing therapy right now and it is good. TranscriptHenry: Today I am talking to Lamorna Ash. Lamorna is one of the rising stars of her generation. She has written a book about a fishing village in Cornwall. She's written columns for the New Statesman, of which I'm a great admirer. She works for a publisher and now she's written a book called, Don't Forget, We're Here Forever: A New Generation's Search for Religion. I found this book really compelling and I hope you will go and read it right now. Lamorna, welcome.Lamorna Ash: Thank you for having me.Henry: What was it like when you worked at the Times Literary Supplement?Lamorna: It was an amazing introduction to mostly contemporary fiction, but also so many other forms of writing I didn't know about. I went there, I actually wrote a letter, handwritten letter after my finals, saying that I'd really enjoyed this particular piece that somehow linked the anatomy of melancholy to infinite jest, and being deeply, deeply, deeply pretentious, those were my two favorite books. I thought, well, I'll apply for this magazine. I turned up there as an intern. They happened to have a space going.My job was Christmas in that I just spent my entire time unwrapping books and putting them out for editors to swoop by and take away. I'd take on people's corrections. I'd start to see how the editorial process worked. I started reading. I somehow had missed contemporary fiction. I hadn't read people like Rachel Kask or Nausgaard. I was reading them through going to the fiction pages. It made me very excited. Also, my other job whilst I was there, was I had the queries email. You'd get loads of incredibly random emails, including things like, you are cordially invited to go on the Joseph Conrad cycle tour of London. I'd ask the office, "Does anyone want to do this?" Obviously, no one ever said yes.I had this amazing year of doing really weird stuff, like going on Joseph Conrad cycling tour or going to a big talk at the comic book museum or the new advertising museum of London. I loved it. I really loved it.Henry: What was the Joseph Conrad cycling tour of London like? That sounds-Lamorna: Oh, it was so good. I remember at one point we stopped on maybe it was Blackfriars Bridge or perhaps it was Tower Bridge and just read a passage from the secret agent about the boats passing underneath. Then we'd go to parts of the docks where they believe that Conrad stayed for a while, but instead it would be some fancy youth hostel instead.It was run by the Polish Society of London, I believe-- the Polish Society of England, I believe. Again, each time it was like an excuse then to get into that writer and then write a little piece about it for the TLS. I guess, it was also, I was slightly cutting my teeth on how to do that kind of journalism as well.Henry: What do you like about The Anatomy of Melancholy?Lamorna: Almost everything. I think the prologue, Democritus Junior to the Reader is just so much fun and naughty. He says, "I'm writing about melancholy in order to try and avoid melancholy myself." There's six editions of it. He spent basically his entire life writing this book. When he made new additions to the book, rather than adding another chapter, he would often be making insertions within sentences themselves, so it becomes more and more bloated. There's something about the, what's the word for it, the ambition that I find so remarkable of every single possible version of melancholy they could talk about.Then, maybe my favorite bit, and I think about this as a writer a lot, is there's a bit called the digression of air, or perhaps it's digression on the air, where he just suddenly takes the reader soaring upwards to think about air and you sort of travel up like a hawk. It's this sort of breathing moment for a reader where you go in a slightly different direction. I think in my own writing, I always think about digression as this really valuable bit of nonfiction, this sense of, I'm not just taking you straight the way along. I think it'd be useful to go sideways a bit too.Henry: That was Samuel Johnson's favorite book as well. It's a good choice.Lamorna: Was it?Henry: Yes. He said that it was the only book that would get him out of bed in the morning.Lamorna: Really?Henry: Because he was obviously quite depressive. I think he found it useful as well as entertaining, as it were. Should netball be an Olympic sport?Lamorna: [laughs] Oh, it's already going to be my favorite interview. I think the reason it isn't an Olympic-- yes, I have a vested interest in netball and I play netball once a week. I'm not very good, but I am very enthusiastic because it's only played mostly in the Commonwealth. It was invented a year after basketball as a woman-friendly version because women should not run with the ball in case they get overexerted and we shouldn't get too close to contacting each other in case we touch, and that's awful.It really is only played in the Commonwealth. I think the reason it won't become an Olympic sport is because it's not worldwide enough, which I think is a reasonable reason. I'm not, of all the my big things that I want to protest about and care about right now, making that an Olympic sport is a-- it's reasonably low on my list.Henry: Okay, fair enough. You are an admirer of M. John Harrison's fiction, is that right?Lamorna: Yes.Henry: Tell us what should we read and why should we read him?Lamorna: You Should Come With Me Now, is that what it's called? I know I reviewed one of his books years ago and thought it was-- because he's part of that weird sci-fi group that I find really interesting and they've all got a bit of Samuel Delany to them as well. I just remember there was this one particular story in that collection, I think in general, he's a master at sci-fi that doesn't feel in that Dune way of just like, lists of names of places. It somehow has this, it's very literary, it's very odd, it's deeply imaginative. It is like what I wanted adult fiction to be when I was 12 or something, that there's the way the fantasy and imagination works.I remember there was one about all these men, married men who were disappearing into their attics and their wives thought they were just tinkering. What they were doing was building these sort of translucent tubes that were taking them off out of the world. I remember just thinking it was great. His conceits are brilliant and make so much sense, whilst also always being at an interesting slant from reality. Then, I haven't read his memoir, but I hear again and again this anti-memoir he's written. Have you read that?Henry: No.Lamorna: Apparently that's really brilliant too. Then he also, writes those about climbing. He's actually got this one foot in the slightly travel nature writing sports camp. I just always thought he was magic. I remember on Twitter, he was really magic as well. I spent a lot of time following him.Henry: Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future of writing and literature and books and this whole debate that's going on?Lamorna: It's hard to. I don't want to say anything fast and snappy because it's such a complicated thing. I could just start by saying personally, I'm worried about me and writing because I'm worried about my concentration span. I am so aware that in the same way that a piano player has to be practising the pieces they're going to play all the time. I think partly that's writing and writing, I seem to be able to do even with this broken, distracted form of attention I've got. My reading, I don't feel like I'm getting enough in. I think that means that what I produce will necessarily be less good if I can't solve that.I've just bought a dumb phone on the internet and I hope that's going to help me by no longer having Instagram and things like that. I think, yes, I suppose we do read a bit less. The generation below us is reading less. That's a shame. There's so much more possibility to go out and meet people from different places. On an anthropological level, I think anthropology has had this brilliant turn of becoming more subjective. The places you go, you have to think about your own relationship to them. I think that can make really interesting writing. It's so different from early colonial anthropology.The fact that, I guess, through, although even as I'm saying this, I don't know enough to say it, but I was going to say something about the fact that people, because we can do things like substacks and people can do short form content, maybe that means that more people's voices are getting heard and then they can, if they want to, transfer over and write books as well.I still get excited by books all the time. There's still so much good contemporary stuff that's thrilling me from all over the place. I don't feel that concerned yet. If we all do stop writing books entirely for a year and just read all the extraordinary books that have been happening for the last couple of thousand, we'd be okay.Henry: I simultaneously see the same people complaining that everything's dying and literature is over and that we have an oversupply of books and that capitalism is giving us too many books and that's the problem. I'm like, "Guys, I think you should pick one."Lamorna: [laughs] You're not allowed both those arguments. My one is that I do think it's gross, the bit of publishing that the way that some of these books get so oddly inflated in terms of the sales around them. Then, someone is getting a million pounds for a debut, which is enormous pressure on them. Then, someone else is getting 2K. I feel like there should be, obviously, there should be a massive cap on how large an advance anyone should get, and then more people will actually be able to stay in the world of writing because they won't have to survive on pitiful advances. I think that would actually have a huge impact and we should not be giving, love David Beckham as much as I do, we shouldn't be giving him five million pounds for someone else to go to write his books. It's just crazy.Henry: Don't the sales of books like that subsidize those of us who are not getting such a big advance?Lamorna: I don't think they always do. I think that's the problem is that they do have this wealth of funds to give to celebrities and often those books don't sell either. I still think even if those books sell a huge amount of money, those people still shouldn't be getting ridiculous advances like that. They still should be thinking about young people who are important to the literary, who are going to produce books that are different and surprising and whose voices we need to hear. That feels much more important.Henry: What do you think about the idea that maybe Anglo fiction isn't at a peak? I don't necessarily agree with that, but maybe we can agree that these are not the days of George Eliot and Charles Dickens, but the essay nonfiction periodicals and writing online, this is huge now. Right? Actually, our pessimism is sort of because we're looking in the wrong area and there are other forms of writing that flourish, actually doing great on the internet.Lamorna: Yes, I think so too. Again, I don't think I'm internet worldly enough to know this, but I still find these extraordinary, super weird substats that feel exciting. I also get an enormous amount of pleasure in reading Reddit now, which I only just got into many, many years late, but so many fun, odd things. Like little essays that people write and the way that people respond to each other, which is quick and sharp, and I suppose it fills the gap of what Twitter was.I think nonfiction, I was talking about this morning, because I'm staying with some writers, because we're sort of Cornish, book talk thing together and how much exciting nonfiction has come out this year that we want to read from the UK that is hybrid-y nature travel. Then internationally, I still think there's-- I just read, Perfection by Vincenzo, but there's enough translated fiction that's on the international book list this year that gets me delighted as well. To me, I just don't feel worried about that kind of thing at all when there's so much exciting stuff happening.I love Reddit. I think they really understand things that other people don't on there. I think it's the relief now that when you type in something to Google, you get the AI response. It's something like, it's so nice to feel on Reddit that someone sat down and answered you. Maybe that's such a shame that that's what makes me happy now, that we're in that space. It does feel like someone will tell you not just the answer, but then give you a bit about their life. Then, the particular tool that was passed down by their grandparents. That's so nice.Henry: What do you think of the new Pope?Lamorna: I thought it was because I'd heard all the thing around fat Pope, thin Pope, and obviously, our new Pope is maybe a sort of middle Pope, or at least is closer to Francis, but maybe a bit more palatable to some people. I guess, I'm excited that he's going to do, or it seems like he's also taking time to think, but he's good on migration on supporting the rights of immigrants. I think there's value in the fact of him being American as this being this counterpoint to what's happening in America right now. If feels always feels pointless to say because they're almost the idea of a Pope.I guess, Francis said that, who am I to judge about people being gay, but I think this Pope has so far has been more outly against gay people, but he stood up against JD Vance and his stupid thoughts on theology. I'm quietly optimistic. I guess I'm also waiting for Robert Harris's prophecy to come true and we get an intersex Pope next. Because I think that was prophecy, right? What he wrote.Henry: That would be interesting.Lamorna: Yes.Henry: The religious revival that people say is happening, particularly among young people, how is AI going to make it different than previous religious revivals?Lamorna: Oh, that's so interesting. Maybe first of all, question, sorry, I choked on my coffee. I was slightly questioned the idea if there is a religious revival, it's not actually an argument that I made in the book. When I started writing the book, there wasn't this quiet revival or this Bible studies and survey that suggests that more young people are going to church hadn't come out yet. I was just more, I guess, aware that there were a few people around me who were converting and I thought it'd be interesting if there's a few, there'll be more, which I think probably happens in every single generation, right? Is that that's one way to deal with the longing for meaning we all experience and the struggles in our lives.I was speaking to a New York Times journalist who was questioning the stats that have been coming out because first it's incredibly small pool. It's quite self-selecting that possibly there are people who might have gone to church already. It's still such a small uptick because it makes it hard to say anything definitive. I guess in general, what will the relationship be between AI and religion?I guess, there are so many ways you could go with that. One is that those spaces, religious spaces, are nicely insulated from technology. Not everywhere. Obviously, in some places they aren't, but often it's a space in which you put your phone away. In my head, the desire to go to church is as against having to deal with AI or having to deal with technology being integrated to every other aspect of my life.I guess maybe people will start worshiping the idea of the singularity. Maybe we'll get the singularity and Terminator, or the Matrix is going to happen, and we'll call them our gods because they will feel like gods. That's maybe one option. I don't know how AI-- I guess I don't know enough about AI that maybe you'll have AI, or does this happen? Maybe this has happened already that you could have an AI confession and you'd have an AI priest and they tell you--Henry: Sure. It's huge for therapy, right?Lamorna: Yes.Henry: Which is that adjacent thing.Lamorna: That's a good point. It does feel something about-- I'm sure, theologically, it's not supposed to work if you haven't been ordained, but can an AI be ordained, become a priest?Henry: IndeedLamorna: Could they do communion? I don't know. It's fascinating.Henry: I can see a situation where a young person lives in a secular environment or culture and is interested in things and the AI is the, in some ways, easiest place for them to turn to say, "I need to talk about-- I have these weird semi-religious feelings, or I'm interested." The AI's not going to be like, "Oh, really? That's weird." There's the question of will we worship AI or whatever, but also will we get people's conversions being shaped by their therapy/confessors/whatever chat with their LLM?Lamorna: Oh, it's so interesting. I read a piece recently in the LRB by James Vincent. It was about AI relationships, our relationship with AI, and he looked at AI girlfriends. There was this incredible case, maybe you read about it, about a guy who tried to kill the Queen some years back. His defense was that his AI girlfriend had really encouraged him to do that. Then, you can see the transcripts of the text, and he says, "I'm thinking about killing the Queen." His AI girlfriend is like, "Go for it, baby."It's that thing there of like, at the moment, AI is still reflecting back our own desires or refracting almost like shifting how they're expressed. I'm trying to imagine that in the same case of me saying, "I feel really lonely, and I'm thinking about Christianity." My friend would speak with all of their context and background, and whatever they've got going on for them. Whereas an AI would feel my desire there and go, "That's a good idea. It says online this." It's very straight. It would definitely lead us in directions that feel less than human or other than human.Henry: I also have this thought, you used to, I think you still do, but you see it less. You used to get a Samaritan's Bible in every hotel. The Samaritans, will they start trying to install a religious chatbot in places where people--? There are lots of ways in which you could use it as a distribution mechanism.Lamorna: Which does feel so far from the point. Not to think about the gospels, but that feeling of something I talk about in the book is that, so much of it is human contact. Is that this factor of being changed in the moment, person to person. If I have any philosophy for life at the moment is this sense of desperately needing contact that we are saved by each other all the time, not by our telephones and things that aren't real. It's the surprise.I quote it in the book, but Iris Murdoch describes love is the very difficult realization that someone other than yourself is real. I think that's the thing that makes us all survive, is that reminder that if you're feeling deeply depressed, being like, there is someone else that is real, and they have a struggle that matters as much as mine. I think that's something that you are never going to get through a conversation with a chatbot, because it's like a therapeutic thing. You are not having to ask it the same questions, or you are not having to extend yourself to think about someone else in those conversations.Henry: Which Iris Murdoch novels do you like?Lamorna: I've only read The Sea, The Sea, but I really enjoyed it. Which ones do you like?Henry: I love The Sea, The Sea, and The Black Prince. I like the late books, like The Good Apprentice and The Philosopher's Pupil, as well. Some people tell you, "Don't read those. They're late works and they're no good," but I was obsessed. I was absolutely compelled, and they're still all in my head. They're insane.Lamorna: Oh, I must, because I've got a big collection of her essays. I'm thinking is so beautiful, her philosophical thought. It's that feeling, I know I'm going the wrong-- starting in the wrong place, but I do feel that she's someone I'd really love to explore next, kind of books.Henry: I think you'd like her because she's very interested in the question of, can therapy help, can philosophy help, can religion help? She's very dubious about therapy and philosophy, and she is mystic. There are queer characters and neurodivergent characters. For a novelist in the '70s, you read her now and you're like, "Well, this is all just happening now."Lamorna: Cool.Henry: Maybe we should be passing these books out. People need this right now.Lamorna: Which one would you say I should do first after The Sea, The Sea?Henry: Maybe The Black Prince.Lamorna: The Black Prince. Great.Henry: Which is the one she wrote before The Sea, The Sea and is just a massive masterpiece.Lamorna: I'll read it. Where do you stand on therapy? Do you have a position?Henry: I think on net, it might be a bad thing, even if it is individually useful for people.Lamorna: Why is that?Henry: [laughs] I didn't expect to have to answer the question. Basically two reasons. I think it doesn't take enough account of the moral aspect of the decisions being made very often. This is all very anecdotal and you can find yourself feeling better in the short term, but not necessarily in the long-- If you make a decision that's not outrageously immoral, but which has not had enough weight placed on the moral considerations.There was an article about how lots of people cut out relatives now and the role that therapy plays in that. What I was struck by in the article that was-- Obviously, a lot of those people are justified and their relatives have been abusive or nasty, of course, but there are a lot of cases where you were like, "Well, this is a long-term decision that's been made on a short-term basis." I think in 10 years people may feel very differently. There wasn't enough consideration in the article, at least I felt, given to how any children involved would be affected later on. I think it's a good thing and a bad thing.Lamorna: I'm so with you. I think that's why, because also the fact of it being so private and it being about the individual, and I think, again, there are certain things if you're really struggling with that, it's helpful for, but I think I'm always more into the idea of communal things, like AAA and NA, which obviously a very particular. Something about doing that together, that it's collaborative and therefore there is someone else in the room if you say, "I want to cut out my parent."There's someone else who said that happened to me and it was really hard. It means that you are making those decisions together a little bit more. Therapy, I can feel that in friends and stuff that it does make us, even more, think that we are these bounded individuals when we're not.Henry: I should say, I have known people who've gone to therapy and it's worked really well.Lamorna: I'm doing therapy right now and it is good. I think, in my head, it's like it should be one among many and I still question it whilst doing it.Henry: To the extent that there is a religious revival among "Gen Z," how much is it because they have phones? Because you wrote something like, in fact, I have the quote, "There's a sense of terrible tragedy. How can you hold this constant grief that we feel, whether it's the genocide in Gaza or climate collapse? Where do I put all the misery that I receive every single second through my phone? Church can then be a space where I can quietly go and light a candle." Is it that these young people are going to religion because the phone has really pushed a version of the world into their faces that was not present when I was young or people are older than me?Lamorna: I think it's one of, or that the phone is the symptom because the phone, whatever you call it, technology, the internet, is the thing that draws the world closer to us in so many different ways. One being that this sense of being aware of what's happening around in other places in the world, which maybe means that you become more tolerant of other religions because you're hearing about it more. That, on TikTok, there's loads of kids all across the world talking about their particular faiths and their background and which aspera they're in, and all that kind of thing.Then, this sense of horror being very unavoidable that you wake up and it is there and you wake up and you think, "What am I doing? What am I doing here? I feel completely useless." Perhaps then you end up in a church, but I'm not sure.I think a bigger player in my head is the fact that we are more pluralistic as societies. That you are more likely to encounter other religions in schools. I think then the question is, well then maybe that'll be valuable for me as well. I think also, not having parents pushing religion on you makes kids, the fact of the generation above the British people, your parents' generations, not saying religion is important, you go to church, then it becomes something people can become more curious about in their own right as adults. I think that plays into it.I think isolation plays into it and that's just not about technology and the phone, but that's the sense of-- and again, I'm thinking about early 20s, mid 20s, so adults who are moving from place to place, who maybe feel very isolated and alone, who are doing jobs that make them feel isolated and alone, and there are this dearth of community spaces and then thinking, well, didn't people used to go to churches, it would be so nice to know someone older than me.I don't know how this fits in, but I was thinking about, I saw this documentary, The Encampments, like two days ago, which is about the Columbia University encampments and within that, Mahmood Khalil, who's the one who's imprisoned at the moment, who was this amazing leader within the movement and is from Palestine. The phone in that, the sense about how it was used to gather and collect people and keep people aware of what's happening and mean that everyone is more conscious and there's a point when they need more people in the encampments because the police are going to come. It's like, "Everyone, use your phone, call people now." I think I can often be like, "Oh no, phones are terrible," but this sense within protest, within communal activity, how valuable they can be as well.I haven't quite gotten into that thought. I don't know, basically. I think it's so hard. I've grown up with a phone. I have no sense of how much it plays a part in everything about me, but obviously, it is a huge amount. I do think it's something that we all think about and are horrified by whilst also seeing it as like this weird extension of ourselves. That definitely plays into then culturally, the decisions we make to either try and avoid them, find spaces where you can be without them.Henry: How old do you think a child should be when they're first given a phone? A smartphone, like an iPhone type thing?Lamorna: I think, 21.Henry: Yes?Lamorna: No, I don't know. I obviously wouldn't know that about a child.Henry: I might.Lamorna: I'd love to. I would really love to because, I don't know, I have a few friends who weren't allowed to watch TV until they were 18 and they are eminently smarter than me and lots of my other friends. There's something about, I don't know, I hate the idea that as I'm getting older, I'm becoming more scaremongering like, "Oh no, when I was young--" because I think my generation was backed in loads of ways. This thing of kids spending so much less time outside and so much less time being able to imagine things, I think I am quite happy to say that feels like a terrible loss.I read a piece recently about kids in New York and I think they were quite sort of middle-class Brooklyn-y kids, but they choose to go days without their phones and they all go off into the forest together. There is this sense of saying giving kids autonomy, but at the same time, their relationship with a phone is not one of agency. It's them versus tech bros who have designed things that are so deeply addictive, that no adult can let go of it. Let alone a child who's still forming how to work out self-control, discipline and stuff. I think a good parenting thing would be to limit massively these completely non-neutral objects that they're given, that are made like crack and impossible to let go of.Henry: Do you think religious education in schools should be different or should there be more of it?Lamorna: Yes, I think it should be much better. I don't know about you, but I just remember doing loads of diagrams of different religious spaces like, "This is what a mosque looks like," and then I'd draw the diagram. I knew nothing. I barely knew the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. In fact, I probably didn't as a teenager.I remember actually in sixth form, having this great philosophy teacher who was talking about the idea of proto antisemitism within the gospels. I was like, "Wait, what?" Because I just didn't really understand. I didn't know that it was in Greek, that the Old Testament was in Hebrew. I just didn't know. I think all these holy texts that we've been carrying with us for thousands of years across the world have so much in them that's worth reading and knowing.If I was in charge of our R.E., I would get kids to write on all holy texts, but really think about them and try and answer moral problems. You'd put philosophy back with religion and really connect them and think, what is Nietzsche reacting against? What does Freud about how is this form of Christianity different like this? I think that my sense is that since Gove, but also I'm sure way before that as well, the sense of just not taking young people seriously, when actually they're thoughtful, intelligent and able to wrestle with these things, it's good for them to have know what they're choosing against, if they're not interested in religion.Also, at base, those texts are beautiful, all of them are, and are foundational and if you want to be able to study English or history to know things about religious texts and the practices of religion and how those rituals came about and how it's changed over thousands of years, feels important.Henry: Which religious poets do you like other than Hopkins? Because you write very nicely about Hopkins in the book.Lamorna: He's my favorite. I like John Donne a lot. I remember reading lots of his sermons and Lancelot Andrews' sermons at university and thinking they were just astonishingly beautiful. There are certain John Donne sermons and it's this feeling of when he takes just maybe a line from one of Paul's letters and then is able to extend it and extend it, and it's like he's making it grow in material or it's like it's a root where suddenly all these branches are coming off it.Who else do I like? I like George Herbert. Gosh, my brain is going in terms of who else was useful when I was thinking about. Oh it's gone.Henry: Do you like W.H. Auden?Lamorna: Oh yes. I love Auden, yes. I was rereading his poems about, oh what's it called? The one about Spain?Henry: Oh yes.Lamorna: About the idea of tomorrow.Henry: I don't have a memory either, but I know the poem you mean, yes.Lamorna: Okay. Then I'm trying to think of earlier religious poets. I suppose things like The Dream of the Rood and fun ways of getting into it and if you're looking at medieval poetry.Henry: I also think Betjeman is underrated for this.Lamorna: I've barely read any Betjeman.Henry: There's a poem called Christmas. You might like it.Lamorna: Okay.Henry: It's this famous line and is it true and is it true? He really gets into this thing of, "We're all unwrapping tinsely presents and I'm sitting here trying to work out if God became man." It's really good. It's really good. The other one is called Norfolk and again, another famous line, "When did the devil first attack?" It talks about puberty as the arrival of the awareness of sin and so forth.Lamorna: Oh, yes.Henry: It's great. Really, really good stuff. Do you personally believe in the resurrection?Lamorna: [chuckles] I keep being asked this.Henry: I know. I'm sorry.Lamorna: My best answer is sometimes. Because I do sometimes in that way that-- someone I interviewed who's absolutely brilliant in the book, Robert, and he's a Cambridge professor. He's a pragmatist and he talks about the idea of saying I'm a disciplined person means nothing unless you're enacting that discipline daily or it falls away. For him, that belief in a Kierkegaardian leap way is something that needs to be reenacted in every moment to say, I believe and mean it.I think there are moments when my church attendance is better and I'm listening to a reading that's from Acts or whatever and understanding the sense of those moments, Paul traveling around Europe and Asia Minor, only because he fully believed that this is what's happened. Those letters and as you're reading those letters, the way I read literature or biblical writing is to believe in that moment because for that person, they believe too. I think there are points at which the resurrection can feel true to me, but it does feel like I'm accessing that idea of truth in a different way than I am accessing truth about-- it's close to how I think about love as something that's very, very real, but very different from experiential feelings.I had something else I wanted to say about that and it's just gone. Oh yes. I was at Hay Festival a couple of weeks ago. Do you know the Philosopher Agnes Callard?Henry: Oh, sure.Lamorna: She gave a really great talk about Socrates and her love of Socrates, but she also came to my talk and she and her husband, who I think met through arguing about Aristotle, told me they argued for about half a day about a line I'd said, which was that during writing the book, I'd learned to believe in the belief of other people, her husband was like, "You can't believe in the belief of other people if you don't believe it too. That doesn't work. That doesn't make sense." I was like, "That's so interesting." I can so feel that if we're taking that analytically, that if I say I don't believe in the resurrection, not just that I believe you believe it, but I believe in your belief in the resurrection. At what point is that any different from saying, I believe in the resurrection. I feel like I need to spend more time with it. What the slight gap is there that I don't have that someone else does, or as I say it, do I then believe in the resurrection that moment? I'm not sure.I think also what I'm doing right now is trying to sound all clever with it, whereas for other people it's this deep ingrained truth that governs every moment of their life and that they can feel everywhere, or perhaps they can't. Perhaps there's more doubt than they suggest, which I think is the case with lots of us. Say on the deathbed, someone saying that they fully believe in the resurrection because that means there's eternal salvation, and their family believe in that too. I don't think I have that kind of certainty, but I admire it.Henry: Tell me how you got the title for this book from an episode of The Simpsons.Lamorna: It's really good app. It's from When Maggie Makes Three, which is my favorite episode. I think titles are horribly hard. I really struck my first book. I would have these sleepless nights just thinking about words related to the sea, and be like, blue something. I don't know. There was a point where my editor wanted to call it Trawler Girl. I said, "We mustn't. That's awful. That's so bad. It makes me sound like a terrible superhero. I'm not a girl, I'm a woman."With this one, I think it was my fun title for ages. Yes, it's this plaque that Homer has put-- Mr. Burns puts up this plaque to remind him that he will never get to leave the power plant, "Don't forget you're here forever."I just think it's a strong and bonkers line. I think it had this element of play or silliness that I wanted, that I didn't think about too hard. I guess that's an evangelical Christian underneath what they're actually saying is saying-- not all evangelicals, but often is this sense of no, no, no, we are here forever. You are going to live forever. That is what heaven means.That sense of then saying it in this jokey way. I think church is often very funny spaces, and funny things happen. They make good comedy series when you talk about faith.Someone's saying she don't forget we're here forever. The don't forget makes it so colloquial and silly. I just thought it was a funny line for that reason.Then also that question people always ask, "Is religion going to die out?" I thought that played into it. This feeling that, yes, I write about it. There was a point when I was going to an Extinction Rebellion protest, and everyone was marching along with that symbol of the hourglass inside a circle next to a man who had a huge sign saying, "Stop, look, hell is real, the end of the world is coming." This sense of different forms of apocalyptic thinking that are everywhere at the moment. I felt like the title worked for that as well.Henry: I like that episode of The Simpsons because it's an expression of an old idea where he's doing something boring and his life is going to slip away bit by bit. The don't forget you're here forever is supposed to make that worse, but he turns it round into the live like you're going to die tomorrow philosophy and makes his own kind of meaning out of it.Lamorna: By papering it over here with pictures of Maggie. They love wordplay, the writers of The Simpsons, and so that it reads, "Do it for her," instead. That feeling of-- I think that with faith as well of, don't forget we're here forever, think about heaven when actually so much of our life is about papering it over with humanity and being like, "Does it matter? I'm with you right now, and that's what matters." That immediacy of human contact that church is also really about, that joy in the moment. Where it doesn't really matter in that second if you're going to heaven or hell, or if that exists. You're there together, and it's euphoric, or at least it's a relief or comforting.Henry: You did a lot of Bible study and bible reading to write this book. What were the big surprises for you?Lamorna: [chuckles] This is really the ending, but revelation, I don't really think it's very well written at all. It shouldn't be in there, possibly. It's just not [unintelligible 00:39:20] It got added right in the last minute. I guess it should be in there. I just don't know. What can I say?So much of it was a surprise. I think slowly reading the Psalms was a lovely surprise for me because they contain so much uncertainty and anguish, and doubt. Imagining those being read aloud to me always felt like a very exciting thing.Henry: Did you read them aloud?Lamorna: When I go to more Anglo Catholic services, they tend to do them-- I never know how to pronounce this. Antiphonally.Henry: Oh yes.Lamorna: Back and forth between you. It's very reverential, lovely experience to do that. I really think I was surprised by almost everything I was reading. At the start of Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling, he does this amazing thing where he does four different versions of what could be happening in the Isaac and Abraham story underneath.There's this sense of in the Bible, and I'm going to get this wrong, but in Mimesis, Auerbach talks about the way that you're not given the psychological understanding within the Bible. There's so much space for readers to think with, because you're just being told things that happened, and the story moves on quickly, moment by moment. With Isaac and Abraham, what it would mean if Isaac actually had seen the fact that his father was planning to kill him. Would he then lose his faith? All these different scenarios.I suddenly realised that the Bible was not just a fixed text, but there was space to play with it as well. In the book, I use the story of Jacob and the angel and play around with the meaning of that and what would happen after this encounter between Jacob and an angel for both of them.Bits in the Gospels, I love the story of the Gerasene Demoniac. He was a knight. He was very unwell, and no one knew what to do with him. He was ostracised from his community. He would sit in this cave and scream and lacerate himself against the cave walls. Then Jesus comes to him and speaks to him and speaks to the demons inside him. There's this thing in Mark's Gospel that Harold Bloom talks about, where only demons are actually able to perceive. Most people have to ask Christ who he really is, but demons can perceive him immediately and know he's the son of God.The demons say that they are legion. Then Jesus puts them into 1,000 pigs. Is it more? I can't remember. Then they're sent off over the cliff edge. Then the man is made whole and is able to go back to his community. I just think there's just so much in that. It's so rich and strange. I think, yes, there's something about knowing you could sit down and just read a tiny bit of the Bible and find something strange and unusual that also might speak to something you've read that's from thousands of years later.I also didn't know that in Mark's Gospel, the last part of it is addended, added on to it. Before that, it ended with the women being afraid, seeing the empty tomb, but there's no resolution. There's no sense of Christ coming back as spirit. It ended in this deep uncertainty and fear. I thought that was so fascinating because then again, it reminds you that those texts have been played around with and thought with, and meddled with, and changed over time. It takes away from the idea that it's fixed and certain, the Bible.Henry: What did you think of Harold Bloom's book The Shadow of a Great Rock?Lamorna: I really loved it. He says that he treats Shakespeare more religiously and the Bible more like literature, which I found a funny, irreverent thing to say. There's lovely stuff in there where, I think it was Ruth, he was like, maybe it was written by a woman. He takes you through the different Hebrew writers for Genesis. Which again, becoming at this as such a novice in so many ways, realising that, okay, so when it's Yahweh, it's one particular writer, there's the priestly source for particular kinds of writing. The Yahwist is more ironic, or the God you get is more playful.That was this key into thinking about how each person trying to write about God, it's still them and their sense of the world, which is particular and idiosyncratic is forming the messages that they believe they're receiving from God. I found that exciting.Yes, he's got this line. He's talking about the blessings that God gives to men in Genesis. He's trying to understand, Bloom, what the meaning of a blessing is. He describes it as more life into a time without boundaries. That's a line that I just found so beautiful, and always think about what the meaning of that is. I write it in the book.My best friend, Sammy, who's just the most game person in the world, that you tell them anything, they're like, "Cool." I told them that line. They were like, "I'm getting it tattooed on my arm next week." Then got me to write in my handwriting. I can only write in my handwriting, but write down, "More time into life without boundaries." Now they've just got it on their arm.Henry: Nice.Lamorna: I really like. They're Jewish, non-practicing. They're not that really interested in it. They were like, "That's a good line to keep somewhere."Henry: I think it's actually one of Bloom's best books. There's a lot of discussion about, is he good? Is he not good? I love that book because it really just introduces people to the Bible and to different versions of the Bible. He does all that Harold Bloom stuff where he's like, "These are the only good lines in this particular translation of this section. The rest is so much dross.He's really attentive to the differences between the translations, both theologically but also aesthetically. I think a lot of people don't know the Bible. It's a really good way to get started on a-- sitting down and reading the Bible in order. It's going to fail for a lot of people. Harold Bloom is a good introduction that actually gives you a lot of the Bible itself.Lamorna: For sure, because it's got that midrash feeling of being like someone else working around it, which then helps you get inside it. I was reading that book whilst going to these Bible studies at a conservative evangelical church called All Souls. I wasn't understanding what on earth was going on in Mark through the way that we're being told to read it, which is kids' comprehension.Maybe it was useful to think about why would the people have been afraid when Christ quelled the storms? It was doing something, but there was no sense of getting inside the text. Then, to read alongside that, Bloom saying that the Christ in Mark is the most unknowable of all the versions of Christ. Then again, just thinking, "Oh, hang on." There's an author. The author of Mark's gospel is perceiving Christ in a particular way. This is the first of the gospels writing about Christ. What does it mean? He's unknowable. Suddenly thinking of him as a character, and therefore thinking about how people are relating to him. It totally cracks the text open for you.Henry: Do you think denominational differences are still important? Do most people have actual differences in dogma, or are they just more cultural distinctions?Lamorna: They're ritual distinctions. There really is little that you could compare between a Quaker meeting and a Catholic service. That silence is the fundamental aspect of all of it. There's a sense of enlighten.My Quaker mate, Lawrence, he's an atheist, but he wouldn't go to another church service because he's so against the idea of hierarchy and someone speaking from a pulpit. He's like, honestly, the reincarnated spirit of George Fox in many ways, in lots of ways he's not.I guess it becomes more blurry because, yes, there's this big thing in the early 20th century in Britain anyway, where the line that becomes more significant is conservative liberal. It's very strange that that's how our world gets divided. There's real simplification that perhaps then, a liberal Anglican church and a liberal Catholic church have more in relationship than a conservative Catholic church and a conservative evangelical church. The line that is often thinking about sexuality and marriage.I was interested, people have suddenly was called up in my book that I talk about sex a lot. I think it's because sex comes up so much, it feels hard not to. That does seem to be more important than denominational differences in some ways. I do think there's something really interesting in this idea of-- Oh, [unintelligible 00:48:17] got stung. God, this is a bit dramatic. Sorry, I choked on coffee earlier. Now I'm going to get stung by a bee.Henry: This is good. This is what makes a podcast fun. What next?Lamorna: You don't get this in the BBC studios. Maybe you do. Oh, what was I about to say? Oh, yes. I like the idea of church shopping. People saying that often it speaks to the person they are, what they're looking for in a church. I think it's delightful to me that there's such a broad church, and there's so many different spaces that you can go into to discover the church that's right for you. Sorry. I'm really distracted by this wasp or bee. Anyway.Henry: How easy was it to get people to be honest with you?Lamorna: I don't know. I think that there's certain questions that do tunnel right through to the heart of things. Faith seems to be one of them. When you talk about faith with people, you're getting rid of quite a lot of the chaff around with the politeness or whatever niceties that you'd usually speak about.I was talking about this with another friend who's been doing this. He's doing a play about Grindr. He was talking about how strange it is that when you ask to interview someone and you have a dictaphone there, you do get a deeper instant conversation. Again, it's a bit like a therapeutic conversation where someone has said to you, "I'm just going to sit and listen." You've already agreed, and you know it's going to be in a book. "Do you mind talking about this thing?"That just allows this opportunity for people to be more honest because they're aware that the person there is actually wanting to listen. It's so hard to create spaces. I create a cordon and say, "We're going to have a serious conversation now." Often, that feels very artificial. I think yes, the beauty of getting to sit there with a dictaphone on your notebook is you are like, "I really am interested in this. It really matters to me." I guess it feels easy in that way to get honesty.Obviously, we're all constructing a version of ourselves for each other all the time. It's hard for me to know to what extent they're responding to what they're getting from me, and what they think I want to hear. If someone else interviewed them, they would probably get something quite different. I don't know. I think if you come to be with openness, and you talk a bit about your journey, then often people want to speak about it as well.I'm trying to think. I've rarely interviewed someone where I haven't felt this slightly glowy, shimmery sense of it, or what I'm learning feels new and feels very true. I felt the same with Cornish Fisherman, that there was this real honesty in these conversations. Many years ago, I remember I got really obsessed with interviewing my mom. I think I was just always wanting to practice interviewing. The same thing that if there's this object between you, it shifts the dimensions of the conversation and tends towards seriousness.Henry: How sudden are most people's conversions?Lamorna: Really depends. I was in this conversation with someone the other day. When she was 14, 15, she got caught shoplifting. She literally went, "Oh, if there's a God up there, can you help get me out of the situation?" The guy let her go, and she's been a Christian ever since. She had an instantaneous conversion. Someone I interviewed in the book, and he was a really thoughtful card-carrying atheist. He had his [unintelligible 00:51:58] in his back pocket.He hated the Christians and would always have a go at them at school because he thought it was silly, their belief. Then he had this instant conversion that feels very charismatic in form, where he was just walking down an avenue of trees at school, and he felt the entire universe smiling at him and went, "Oh s**t, I better become a Christian."Again, I wonder if it depends. I could say it depends on the person you are, whether you are capable of having an instant conversion. Perhaps if I were in a religious frame of mind, I'd say it depends on what God would want from you. Do you need an instant conversion, or do you need to very slowly have the well filling up?I really liked when a priest said to me that people often go to church and expect to be changed in a moment. He's like, "No, you have to go for 20 years before anything happens." Something about that slow incremental conversion to me is more satisfying. It's funny, I was having a conversation with someone about if they believe in ghosts, and they were like, "Well, if I saw one, then I believe in ghosts." For some people, transcendental things happen instantaneously, and it does change them ultimately instantly.I don't know, I would love to see some stats about which kinds of conversions are more popular, probably more instant ones. I love, and I use it in the book, but William James' Varieties of Religious Experience. He talks about there's some people who are sick-souled or who are also more porous bordered people for whom strange things can more easily cross the borders of their person. They're more likely to convert and more likely to see things.I really like him describing it that way because often someone who's like that, it might just be described as well, you have a mental illness. That some people are-- I don't know, they've got sharper antennae than the rest of us. I think that is an interesting thought for why some people can convert instantly.Henry: I think all conversions take a long time. At the moment, there's often a pivotal moment, but there's something a long time before or after that, that may or may not look a conversion, but which is an inevitable part of the process. I'm slightly obsessed with the idea of quests, but I think all conversions are a quest or a pilgrimage. Your book is basically a quest narrative. As you go around in your Toyota, visiting these places. I'm suspicious, I think the immediate moment is bundled up with a longer-term thing very often, but it's not easy to see it.Lamorna: I love that. I've thought about the long tail afterwards, but I hadn't thought about the lead-up, the idea of that. Of what little things are changing. That's such a lovely thought. Their conversions began from birth, maybe.Henry: The shoplifter, it doesn't look like that's where they're heading. In retrospect, you can see that there weren't that many ways out of this path that they're on. Malcolm X is like this. One way of reading his autobiography is as a coming-of-age story. Another way of reading it is, when is this guy going to convert? This is going to happen.Lamorna: I really like that. Then there's also that sense of how fixed the conversion is, as well, from moment to moment. That Adam Phillips' book on wanting to change, he talks about our desire for change often outstrips our capacity for change. That sense of how changed am I afterwards? How much does my conversion last in every moment? It goes back to the do you believe in the resurrection thing.I find that that really weird thing about writing a book is, it is partly a construction. You've got the eye in there. You're creating something that is different from your reality and fixed, and you're in charge of it. It's stable, it remains, and you come to an ending. Then your life continues to divert and deviate in loads of different ways. It's such a strange thing in that way. Every conversion narrative we have fixed in writing, be it Augustine or Paul, whatever, is so far from the reality of that person's experience.Henry: What did the new atheists get wrong?Lamorna: Arrogance. They were arrogant. Although I wonder, I guess it was such a cultural moment, and perhaps in the same way that everyone is in the media, very excitedly talking about revival now. There was something that was created around them as well, which was delight in this sense of the end of something. I wonder how much of that was them and how much of it was, they were being carried along by this cultural media movement.I suppose the thing that always gets said, and I haven't read enough Dawkins to say this with any authority, but is that the form of religion that he was attempting to denigrate was a very basic form of Christianity, a real, simplified sense. That he did that with all forms of religion. Scientific progress shows us we've progressed beyond this point, and we don't need this, and it's silly and foolish.I guess he underestimated the depth and richness of religion, and also the fact of this idea of historical progress, when the people in the past were foolish, when they were as bright and stupid as we are now.Henry: I think they believed in the secularization idea. People like Rodney Stark and others were pointing out that it's not really true that we secularized a lot more consistency. John Gray, the whole world is actually very religious. This led them away from John Stuart Mill-type thinking about theism. I think everyone should read more John Stuart Mill, but they particularly should have read the theism essays. That would have been--Lamorna: I've only just got into him because I love the LRB Close Reading podcast. It's Jonathan Rée and James Wood. They did one on John Stuart Mill's autobiography, which I've since been reading. It's an-Henry: It's a great book.Lamorna: -amazing book. His crisis is one of-- He says, "The question of religion is not something that has been a part of my life, but the sense of being so deeply learned." His dad was like, "No poetry." In his crisis moment, suddenly realizing that that's what he needed. He was missing feeling, or he was missing a way of looking at the world that had questioning and doubt within it through poetry.There was a bit in the autobiography, and he talks about when he was in this deep depression, whenever he was at 19 or something. That he was so depressed that he thought if there's a certain number of musical notes, one day there will be no more new music because every single combination will have been done. The sense of, it's so sweetly awful thinking, but without the sense-- I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here.I found his crisis so fascinating to read about and how he comes out of that through this care and attention of beautiful literature and thinking, and through his love of-- What was his wife called again?Henry: Harriet.Lamorna: Harriet. He credits her for almost all his thinking. He wouldn't have moved towards socialism without her. Suddenly, humans are deeply important to him. He feels sorry for the fact that his dad could not express love or take love from him, and that that was such a terrible deficiency in his life.Henry: Mill's interesting on religion because he looks very secular. In fact, if you read his letters, he's often going into churches.Lamorna: Oh, really?Henry: Yes, when he's in Italy, because he had tuberculosis. He had to be abroad a lot. He's always going to services at Easter and going into the churches. For a secular person, he really appreciates all these aspects of religion. His stepdaughter was-- there's a diary of hers in their archives. She was very religious, very intense. As a young woman, when she's 16, 17, intensely Catholic or Anglo-Catholic. Really, it's quite startling.I was reading this thing, and I was like, "Wait, who in the Mill household is writing this? This is insane." There are actually references in his letters where he says, "Oh, we'll have to arrive in time for Good Friday so that she can go to church." He's very attentive to it. Then he writes these theism essays, right at the end of his life. He's very open-minded and very interrogatory of the idea. He really wants to understand. He's not a new atheist at all.Lamorna: Oh, okay. I need to read the deism essays.Henry: You're going to love it. It's very aligned. What hymns do you like?Lamorna: Oh, no.Henry: You can be not a hymn person.Lamorna: No. I'm not a massive hymn person. When I'm in church, the Anglican church that I go to in London now, I always think, "Remember that. That was a really nice one." I like to be a pilgrim. I really don't have the brain that can do this off the cuff. I'm not very musically. I'm deeply unmusical.There was one that I was thinking of. I think it's an Irish one. I feel like I wrote this down at one point, because I thought I might be asked in another interview. I had to write down what I thought in case a hymn that I liked. Which sounds a bit like a politician, when they're asked a question, they're like, "I love football." I actually can't think of any. I'm sorry.Henry: No, that's fine.Lamorna: What are your best? Maybe that will spark something in me.Henry: I like Tell Out My Soul. Do you know that one?Lamorna: Oh, [sings] Tell Out My Soul. That's a good one.Henry: If you have a full church and people are really going for it, that can be amazing. I like all the classics. I don't have any unusual choices. Tell Out My Soul, it's a great one. Lamorna Ash, this has been great. Thank you very much.Lamorna: Thank you.Henry: To close, I think you're going to read us a passage from your book.Lamorna: I am.Henry: This is near the end. It's about the Bible.Lamorna: Yes. Thank you so much. This has definitely been my favourite interview.Henry: Oh, good.Lamorna: I really enjoyed it. It's really fun.Henry: Thank you.Lamorna: Yes, this is right near the end. This is when I ended up at a church, St Luke's, West Holloway. It was a very small 9:00 AM service. Whilst the priest who'd stepped in to read because the actual priest had left, was reading, I just kept thinking about all the stories that I'd heard and wondering about the Bible and how the choices behind where it ends, where it ends.I don't think I understand why the Bible ends where it does. The final lines of the book of Revelation are, "He who testifies to these things says, Yes, I am coming soon. Amen. Come, Lord Jesus, the grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen." Which does sound like a to-be-continued. I don't mean the Bible feels incomplete because it ends with Revelation. What I mean is, if we have continued to hear God and wrestle with him and his emissaries ever since the first overtures of the Christian faith sounded.Why do we not treat these encounters with the same reverence as the works assembled in the New Testament? Why have we let our holy text grow so antique and untouchable instead of allowing them to expand like a divine Wikipedia updated in perpetuity? That way, each angelic struggle and Damascene conversion that has ever occurred or one day will, would become part of its fabric.In this Borgesian Bible, we would have the Gospel of Mary, not a fictitious biography constructed by a man a century after her death, but her true words. We would have the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch on the road between Jerusalem and Gaza from Acts, but this time given in the first person. We would have descriptions from the Picts on Iona of the Irish Saint Columba appearing in a rowboat over the horizon.We would have the Gospels of those from the early Eastern Orthodox churches, Assyrian Gospels, Syriac Orthodox Gospels. We would have records of the crusades from the Christian soldiers sent out through Europe to Jerusalem in order to massacre those of other faiths, both Muslim and Jewish. In reading these accounts, we would be forced to confront the ways in which scripture can be interpreted

Simon Tolkien discusses with Ivan six things which should be better known. Simon Tolkien is the grandson of JRR Tolkien and a director of the Tolkien Estate. He is also series consultant for the Amazon series, The Rings of Power. Simon studied Modern History at Trinity College, Oxford and went on to become a barrister specializing in criminal defence. He left the law to become a writer in 2001 and has published five novels which mine the history of the first half of the last century to explore dark subjects – capital punishment, the Holocaust, the Blitz and the Battle of the Somme. The epic coming-of-age story of Theo Sterling, set in 1930s New York, England and Spain, is being published in two volumes, The Palace at the End of the Sea in June, which is available at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Palace-End-Sea-Novel-Sterling/dp/1662528647 and The Room of Lost Steps, which will be available at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Room-Lost-Steps-Novel-Sterling/dp/1662528663 on 16th September this year. The International Brigades https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2022/02/24/soldiers-of-solidarity-spanish-civil-war/ Gustave Caillebotte https://www.bbc.co.uk/culture/article/20150706-caillebotte-the-painter-who-captured-paris-in-flux Port Meadow, Oxford https://www.oxford.gov.uk/directory-record/673/port-meadow The Conversation https://www.theguardian.com/film/article/2024/jul/04/the-conversation-review-gene-hackman-is-unforgettable-in-coppolas-paranoid-classic Gerard Manley Hopkins https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v36/n07/helen-vendler/i-have-not-lived-up-to-it Santa Barbara, California https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/guide-to-santa-barbara This podcast is powered by ZenCast.fm

Today's poem owes a strong debt to Cowper's “The Poplar Field” but also features a few stylistic echoes of Poe's “Annabel Lee,” all while achieving a (superior?) effect of its own. Happy reading. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit dailypoempod.substack.com/subscribe

In this thought-provoking episode, I am joined by theologian and philosopher Kevin Hart to discuss the nature of contemplation in both religious and secular contexts. Hart traces the historical origins of contemplation from ancient Rome and Greece through Christian traditions, distinguishing it from meditation and contrasting it with our modern culture of fascination. He draws on phenomenology, particularly Husserl's work, to explain how contemplation offers a way to move beyond the limiting "natural attitude" to experience reality more fully. Hart discusses how poetry, particularly that of Gerard Manley Hopkins, exemplifies contemplative engagement with the world, and explores how Jesus' parables invite a shift from worldly preoccupations to an intimate relationship with God. Throughout the conversation, Hart warns about the dangers of our technology-driven "culture of fascination" that traps our attention and leads to emptiness, while offering practical guidance on contemplative reading through practices like Lectio Divina that might help modern people recover a more enriching way of engaging with texts, the world, and the divine. You can WATCH the conversation on YouTube Dr. Kevin Hart is Jo Rae Wright University Distinguished Professor in the Divinity School. He is a philosopher, phenomenologist, and theologian. His academic work spans the intersection of philosophy, literature, and theology, with particular emphasis on religious experience, contemplation, and phenomenology. Hart is known for his significant contributions to understanding both religious and secular forms of contemplation, drawing on thinkers like Edmund Husserl while engaging deeply with Christian contemplative traditions.  If you are new to Dr. Hart's work, check out Contemplation: The Movements of the Soul, Lands of Likeness: For a Poetics of Contemplation, and Poetry and Revelation: For a Phenomenology of Religious Poetry.   Theology Beer Camp | St. Paul, MN | October 16-18, 2025 3 Days of Craft Nerdiness with 50+ Theologians & God-Pods and 600 new friends. ONLINE CLASS ANNOUNCEMENT: The Many Faces of Christ Today The question Jesus asked his disciples still resonates today: "Who do you say that I am?" Join our transformative 5-week online learning community as we explore a rich tapestry of contemporary Christologies. Experience how diverse theological voices create a compelling vision of Jesus Christ for today's world. Expand your spiritual horizons. Challenge your assumptions. Enrich your faith. As always, the class is donation-based (including 0), so head over to ManyFacesOfChrist.com for more details and to sign up! _____________________ Hang with 40+ Scholars & Podcasts and 600 people at Theology Beer Camp 2025 (Oct. 16-18) in St. Paul, MN. This podcast is a Homebrewed Christianity production. Follow the Homebrewed Christianity, Theology Nerd Throwdown, & The Rise of Bonhoeffer podcasts for more theological goodness for your earbuds. Join over 80,000 other people by joining our Substack - Process This! Get instant access to over 45 classes at www.TheologyClass.com Follow the podcast, drop a review, send feedback/questions or become a member of the HBC Community. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Every year, we ask some of our regular radio friends to share Lenten reading recommendations to help give you ideas as you put together your own plan for Lent. Here are some of their ideas: Andrew Petiprin: –Prayer by Hans Urs Von Balthasar–The Portal of the Mystery of Hope by Charles Peguy–Sword of Honour by Evelyn Waugh Amy Welborn: –The daily readings from the Mass–The Habit of Being by Flannery O’Connor–Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales Danielle Bean: –No Greater Love – Edward Sri–The Power of Silence – Cardinal Robert Sarah–The Practice of the Presence of God – Br. Lawrence Amy Alznauer: The Complete Stories by Flannery O’Connor, specifically these short stories:-Temple of the Holy Ghost-A Good Man is Hard to Find-The Enduring Chill-Parker’s Back Ken Craycraft: –Let the Great World Spin by Callum McCann–Mariette in Ecstasy by Ron Hansen–The Five Wounds by Kirstin Valdez Quade Matt Swaim: –The Sign of the Cross by St. Francis de Sales–Selected Poems and Prose by Gerard Manley Hopkins–Humble Strength by Dr. Kevin Vost What are you reading for Lent this year? We’d love to hear from you!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Get out your UV lights & swabs--the queens play a game that fuses poems, then guess the poetic DNA samples. Then we spark up a fusion of a different strain!Please Support Breaking Form!Review the show on Apple Podcasts here.Pretty Please.....Buy our books:     Aaron's STOP LYING is available from the Pitt Poetry Series.     James's ROMANTIC COMEDY is available from Four Way Books.SHOW NOTES:Watch Jools Lebron get mindful and demure here, divaDon't soak tampons in vodka. Poems we discuss in the episode include:Philip Levine's "Bitterness"Laura Kasischke's "Champagne"Kay Ryan's "Shark's Teeth"Kenneth Koch's "One Train May Hide Another"Annie Finch's "Wild Yeasts"Dorothea Lasky's "Toast to my friend or why Friendship is the best kind of Love"Danusha Laméris's "Bonfire Opera"Marie Ponsot's "Among Women"Tina Chang's "God Country"Campbell McGrath's "Sunset, Route 90, Brewster County, Texas"Elizabeth Bishop's "The Fish"W.B. Yeats's "Leda and the Swan"Gerard Manley Hopkins's "The Windhover"Anne Sexton's "Jesus Awake" & "Wanting to Die" Langston Hughes's "The Negro Speaks of Rivers" & "I, Too"Philip Larkin's "Sad Steps" And Beyonce's "You Won't Break My Soul [Queens Remix]," in which she sampled Madonna's song "Vogue," returning it to the culture where it rightly belongs.

Preaching: Ben ConachanIn Epiphany the church basks in the light of Divine Love that is revealed in the incarnation of Christ. But even more astonishing is the invitation of the Incarnation, to ourselves become alight with Divine Love as we learn to walk in ways that make for peace and justice. The poet Gerard Manley Hopkins wrote that the just one “justices; keeps grace: that keeps all his goings graces; acts in God's eye what in God's eye” they are—Christ. In this series, we set out to explore the “graces” that make for justice: benevolence, humility, attention, and hope. Our conversation partners will be the minor prophets, whose cries for justice are invitations to cultivate characters that will keep all our goings graces.Pearl Church exists to express a sacred story and to extend a common table that animate life by love. A primary expression of our sacred story is the weekly sermon. If our sermons inspire you to ponder the sacred, to consider the mystery and love of God, and to live bountifully, would you consider supporting our work? You can donate easily and securely at our website: pearlchurch.org. Thank you for partnering with us in expressing this sacred story.

Preaching: Mike RothPlease note: due to technical issues, the recording quality is poorer for this week's sermon.In Epiphany the church basks in the light of Divine Love that is revealed in the incarnation of Christ. But even more astonishing is the invitation of the Incarnation, to ourselves become alight with Divine Love as we learn to walk in ways that make for peace and justice. The poet Gerard Manley Hopkins wrote that the just one “justices; keeps grace: that keeps all his goings graces; acts in God's eye what in God's eye” they are—Christ. In this series, we set out to explore the “graces” that make for justice: benevolence, humility, attention, and hope. Our conversation partners will be the minor prophets, whose cries for justice are invitations to cultivate characters that will keep all our goings graces.Pearl Church exists to express a sacred story and to extend a common table that animate life by love. A primary expression of our sacred story is the weekly sermon. If our sermons inspire you to ponder the sacred, to consider the mystery and love of God, and to live bountifully, would you consider supporting our work? You can donate easily and securely at our website: pearlchurch.org. Thank you for partnering with us in expressing this sacred story.

Last year The Reader Podcast visited Prospect Park, a psychiatric hospital in Berkshire, to learn more about the 14 year partnership they have built with The Reader. This partnership, powered by the energy and dedication of the Reader in Residence, Sue Colbourn, and the support and belief of the hospital's brilliant staff, has resulted in countless stories that demonstrate how Shared Reading has been a powerful force for good in the lives of both the patients and the health practitioners who care for them.  Prospect Park Hospital  Partnering with The Reader  The Reader Podcast – previous episodes  ‘Adlestrop' by Edward Thomas  ‘I Remember, I Remember' by Thomas Hood  ‘My Own Heart' by Gerard Manley Hopkins 

Preaching: Ben ConachanIn Epiphany the church basks in the light of Divine Love that is revealed in the incarnation of Christ. But even more astonishing is the invitation of the Incarnation, to ourselves become alight with Divine Love as we learn to walk in ways that make for peace and justice. The poet Gerard Manley Hopkins wrote that the just one “justices; keeps grace: that keeps all his goings graces; acts in God's eye what in God's eye” they are—Christ. In this series, we set out to explore the “graces” that make for justice: benevolence, humility, attention, and hope. Our conversation partners will be the minor prophets, whose cries for justice are invitations to cultivate characters that will keep all our goings graces.Pearl Church exists to express a sacred story and to extend a common table that animate life by love. A primary expression of our sacred story is the weekly sermon. If our sermons inspire you to ponder the sacred, to consider the mystery and love of God, and to live bountifully, would you consider supporting our work? You can donate easily and securely at our website: pearlchurch.org. Thank you for partnering with us in expressing this sacred story.

Preaching: Ben ConachanIn Epiphany the church basks in the light of Divine Love that is revealed in the incarnation of Christ. But even more astonishing is the invitation of the Incarnation, to ourselves become alight with Divine Love as we learn to walk in ways that make for peace and justice. The poet Gerard Manley Hopkins wrote that the just one “justices; keeps grace: that keeps all his goings graces; acts in God's eye what in God's eye” they are—Christ. In this series, we set out to explore the “graces” that make for justice: benevolence, humility, attention, and hope. Our conversation partners will be the minor prophets, whose cries for justice are invitations to cultivate characters that will keep all our goings graces.Pearl Church exists to express a sacred story and to extend a common table that animate life by love. A primary expression of our sacred story is the weekly sermon. If our sermons inspire you to ponder the sacred, to consider the mystery and love of God, and to live bountifully, would you consider supporting our work? You can donate easily and securely at our website: pearlchurch.org. Thank you for partnering with us in expressing this sacred story.

In this final episode of the season, we are joined by none other than the author of 'Silence and Other Surprising Invitations of Advent' herself, Enuma Okoro!! Enuma joins Charity, Colleen, and Jeff to share the inspirations behind her book, personal insights on faith, the significance of untold stories in the Bible, and the challenges of maintaining faith. Continuing with our Advent story of Zechariah and Elizabeth, they discuss the challenges and blessings of waiting on God's “inconvenient timing.” The four also reflect on God's presence in everyday life and the importance of recognizing divine manifestations in people and situations we least expect.   This season, as Advent falls on the heels of a contentious election season here in America and amidst the reality of war and violence around the world, we here at the Transforming Center wanted to approach the Advent podcast season with the awareness that many people are deeply in need of space and hope right now. TC staff member Charity McClure and ministry partners Jeff James and Colleen Powell will be walking listeners through Advent with the intention of broadening and deepening the practice and experience of silence as a way to hold that space. Using Enuma Okoro's book 'Silence and Other Surprising Invitations of Advent, which highlights the story of Elizabeth and Zachariah, for inspiration and wisdom, Charity and Jeff will be joined by guests as they explore themes of lament, barrenness, waiting, dependence on God, community, friendship, and hope.   Enuma Okoro is a Nigerian-American author, writer, lecturer, curator, and arts and culture critic. Her globally read column, “The Art of Life,” reflects her broader research and writing interests: how the intersection of art, philosophy, spirituality, ecology and culture can speak to the human condition and interrogate how we live with ourselves and one another, and how we relate to the more-than-human. She has contributed to a number of different publications and is the author of Reluctant Pilgrim and Silence and other Surprising Invitations of Advent. You can find more from her over on her substack A Little Heart to Heart, Letters about life and living, art and spirit, and staying curious and courageous. Mentioned in this episode: Silence and Other Surprising Invitations of Advent by Enuma Okoro (You can also purchase this resource through The Upper Room!) Enuma's Substack A Little Heart to Heart Poem reference:  Gerard Manley Hopkins' Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places   Music Credit: Kingdom Come by Aaron Niequist Journey from Advent Music in Solitude Help us expand our online and digital presence so that we can make teaching, practices and experiences more accessible for you as you continue to seek God in your life and leadership! To contribute towards our year end fundraising efforts, you can GIVE HERE.   Support the podcast! This season patrons will receive special bonus episodes that take the conversation deeper with a practice or continued dialogue.  Become a patron today by visiting our Patreon page!     The Transforming Center exists to create space for God to strengthen leaders and transform communities. You are invited to join our next Transforming Community:® A Two-year Spiritual Formation Experience for Leaders.  Delivered in nine quarterly retreats, this practice-based learning opportunity is grounded in the conviction that the best thing you bring to leadership is your own transforming self! Learn more and apply HERE.   *this post contains affiliate links

Mathias Svalina is the author of seven books. His most recent, America at Play (published by Trident Press), is a collection of absurdist instructions for children's games. His poetry collection Thank You Terror was published earlier this year, and his first short story collection, Comedy, is forthcoming soon. Svalina was a founding editor of Octopus Books. He's led writing workshops in universities, libraries, community spaces, and in prison. Since 2014, he has run a dream delivery service, traveling around the country to write and deliver dreams to subscribers. Through the Dream Delivery Service, Svalina has worked with the Denver Museum of Contemporary Art, the Poetry Foundation, the University of Arizona Poetry Center, and the Museum of Contemporary Art, Tucson. Gerard Manley Hopkins was born in the London suburb of Stratford Essex in 1844. He studied classics at Balliol College in Oxford and theology at St. Beuno's College in North Wales. He was ordained in 1877 as a Jesuit priest, and he served in London, Oxford, Liverpool, Glasgow, and Stonyhurst. He also taught classics at Stonyhurst College and Greek literature at University College, Dublin. During his lifetime, most of Hopkins' poems were read by only a few friends. In 1889, Hopkins died of typhoid fever, and he was buried in Dublin, Ireland. Hopkin's first collection, Poems of Gerard Manley Hopkins, was published in 1918. Links: Read "Terrible Baby" by Mathias Svalina at The TinyRead "That Nature is a Heraclitean Fire and of the comfort of the Resurrection" by Gerard Manley Hopkins at Poets.orgMathias SvalinaMathias Svalina's websiteBio and poem at Poets.org"Mathias Svalina-Dream Delivery Service" video at by JustBuffaloLit Mathias Svalina reads from "Thank You Terror" at the Silo City Reading SeriesGerard Manley HopkinsBio and poems at Poets.orgInternational Hopkins Society's website (poems, bio, study guides, video, etc).Photo Credit: Dean Davis

Mathias Svalina is the author of seven books. His most recent, America at Play (published by Trident Press), is a collection of absurdist instructions for children's games. His poetry collection Thank You Terror was published earlier this year, and his first short story collection, Comedy, is forthcoming soon. Svalina was a founding editor of Octopus Books. He's led writing workshops in universities, libraries, community spaces, and in prison. Since 2014, he has run a dream delivery service, traveling around the country to write and deliver dreams to subscribers. Through the Dream Delivery Service, Svalina has worked with the Denver Museum of Contemporary Art, the Poetry Foundation, the University of Arizona Poetry Center, and the Museum of Contemporary Art, Tucson. Gerard Manley Hopkins was born in the London suburb of Stratford Essex in 1844. He studied classics at Balliol College in Oxford and theology at St. Beuno's College in North Wales. He was ordained in 1877 as a Jesuit priest, and he served in London, Oxford, Liverpool, Glasgow, and Stonyhurst. He also taught classics at Stonyhurst College and Greek literature at University College, Dublin. During his lifetime, most of Hopkins' poems were read by only a few friends. In 1889, Hopkins died of typhoid fever, and he was buried in Dublin, Ireland. Hopkin's first collection, Poems of Gerard Manley Hopkins, was published in 1918. Links: Read "Terrible Baby" by Mathias Svalina at The TinyRead "That Nature is a Heraclitean Fire and of the comfort of the Resurrection" by Gerard Manley Hopkins at Poets.orgMathias SvalinaMathias Svalina's websiteBio and poem at Poets.org"Mathias Svalina-Dream Delivery Service" video by JustBuffalolLitMathias Svalina reads from "Thank You Terror" at the Silo City Reading SeriesGerard Manley HopkinsBio and poems at Poets.orgInternational Hopkins Society's website (poems, bio, study guides, video, etc).Photo Credit: Dean Davis

Has modern humanity lost its connection to the world outside our heads? And can our experience of art and poetry help train us for a more elevated resonance with the cosmos?In today's episode, theologian Miroslav Volf interviews philosopher Charles Taylor about his latest book, Cosmic Connections: Poetry in the Age of Disenchantment. In it he turns to poetry to help articulate the human experience of the cosmos we're a part of.Together they discuss the modern Enlightenment view of our relation to the world and its shortcomings; modern disenchantment and the prospects of reenchantment through art and poetry; Annie Dillard and the readiness to experience the world and what it's always offering; how to hold the horrors of natural life with the transcendent joys; Charles recites some of William Wordsworth's “Tintern Abbey” and Gerard Manley Hopkins's “The Windhover”; how to become fully arrested by beauty; and the value we find in human experience of the world.Production NotesThis podcast featured Charles Taylor and Miroslav VolfEdited and Produced by Evan RosaHosted by Evan RosaProduction Assistance by Emily Brookfield, Alexa Rollow, Kacie Barrett, and Zoë HalabanA Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/aboutSupport For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give

Today's poem, subtitled “a nun takes the veil,” is one of Hopkins' earliest surviving works. Happy reading. Get full access to The Daily Poem Podcast at dailypoempod.substack.com/subscribe

If you're enjoying the Hardcore Literature Show, there are two ways you can show your support and ensure it continues: 1. Please leave a quick review on iTunes. 2. Join in the fun over at the Hardcore Literature Book Club: patreon.com/hardcoreliterature Thank you so much. Happy listening and reading! - Benjamin

Cambridge professor Michael Hurley to discuss the prowess of poet-turned-Jesuit-priest Gerard Manley Hopkins.

As a video of King Charles reciting Gerard Manley Hopkins surfaced recently, Cambridge professor Michael Hurley joins Dr. Grazie Christie and Betsy Fentress to discuss the prowess of this poet-turned-Jesuit-priest. A leading expert on Hopkins, Hurley recites not only God's Grandeur, but the Windhover, which was the poet's favorite work. We also talk with Dr. Susan Bane of AAPLOG about the medical failures that led to the deaths of 2 women in Georgia. We also hear from Father Roger Landry offering an inspiring homily to prepare us for this Sunday's Gospel. Catch the show every Saturday at 5pmET on EWTN radio!

Cambridge professor Michael Hurley to discuss the prowess of poet-turned-Jesuit-priest Gerard Manley Hopkins.

Originally Recorded August 9th, 2024 About Professor Holly Ordway: https://hollyordway.com/ Check out Professor Ordway's edited collection of poems by Gerard Manley Hopkins, titled As Kingfishers Catch Fire: Selected and Annotated Poems of Gerard Manley Hopkins: https://www.amazon.com/As-Kingfishers-Catch-Fire-Annotated/dp/1685780237 This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit musicallyspeaking.substack.com

Alison Umminger Mattison talks about a 20-year stint as an English professor, a marriage, a 13-year-old daughter, and publishing a book. She also pursued a master's in Christian spirituality and spiritual direction certification, focusing on spiritual direction, work, retreat, ministry, and facilitating silent retreats with themed content. She has moved around the world, from Boston to London, DC to Missouri, Indiana to Atlanta, and now resides in Carrollton, Georgia. She also discusses her master's degree and her spiritual guidance and retreat ministries. A Journey in Spiritual Companioning Alison talks about a spiritual retreat she attended, her experience there,  and how this led to a new direction in her life. She explains that spiritual companioning is a listening vocation that involves spending time with people in a healthy space, listening to their stories, heart desires, and listening without judgment. Spiritual companioning focuses on walking with people as far as they need to go. This is different from being a priest, rabbi, minister, or pastor, as it is not about running an organization. Alison discusses her approach to finding spiritual directors. She also shares her experience with two recent retreats, including one on the art and spirituality of Gerard Manley Hopkins. What Happens on The Retreat  Alison talks about her retreats, which include guided meditations, befriending darkness, soul collage, imaginative prayer, and visual meditations. The first evening, she walks people through a guided meditation, asking them to think about what word or phrase is coming up for them. After leading the meditation, she asks people to trust and let go of their needs. She discusses befriending darkness and the importance of being with others in the same situation. She encourages people to spend time in silence and create mandalas to explore the depths of their lives. She also offers micro spiritual direction, and introduces attendees to an imaginative prayer technique. Lastly, the retreat concludes with a visual meditation called Vizio Divina, where people look at a picture and reflect on what they are attracted to, resist, or miss from it.  Understanding Prayer and Meditation Alison talks about meditation and prayer. She shares that monks often use techniques like Lectio Divina, where one takes a verse and meditates on it and asks for help or guidance. This technique allows individuals to practice patience and kindness, allowing them to carry the word with them throughout the day. She emphasizes that prayer is a toolkit for spiritual direction, and that each individual may find a form of prayer or meditation that works for them.  The Work of a Spiritual Director As a spiritual director, Alison often begins by asking questions about the person's spiritual journey and their current state. She has learned to trust her intuition and also listens for words, phrases, or images that come up during the conversation. If they resonate with the person, they may be more open to discussing them. She also listens for consolation or desolation, whether the person is moving away from desolation or towards greater faith, hope, and love. She asks open-ended questions, allowing the person to go deeper with their feelings and experiences. She never asks if something sounds like it's a hopeless or unfulfilling space, as it allows the person to explore their feelings and experiences. She emphasizes the importance of listening and trusting in the process of counseling. Spiritual Direction as an Ancient Practice Alison explains what spirituality means to her and that the role of a spiritual director dates back to monks. It has evolved from being primarily clergy to becoming more popular among the laity. Spiritual directors International offers a broad range of practitioners, including shamans, artists, and Zen practitioners. They serve different religious traditions and can be found in schools that work with their traditions. While the role may have been traditionally filled by a formal clergy member, it is now becoming more accessible to lay people. The term "spiritual director" is not new, but it is becoming more common and accessible. Teaching Fiction Writing and Screenwriting Alison has a PhD in 20th century literature and an MFA in creative writing. She teaches fiction writing and screenwriting, focusing on narrative perspectives rather than helping students create screenplays. Her journey from a PhD to an MFA and screenwriting began when she struggled with plotting and received rejections for her first novel. She started taking screenwriting classes in Atlanta to put joy back into writing and improve her plotting skills. Screenwriting is structured, making it easier for students to focus on plotting and avoid nebulous spaces. It also provides a social environment, with table reads and conversations about topics that transcend the isolating feel of writing. This social aspect of screenwriting helps students form friendships and feel more comfortable sharing their work. The conversation turns to education in today's society, and developing classes of interest to today's students, and Alison's book.  Harvard Professors and Courses of Influences Alison's favorite courses include the Myth of America class, and she explains why she found this class to be particularly interesting and meaningful. The course focuses on the frontier, western expansion, and the concept of individualism, as well as the individual versus culture debate. She believes that the American dream concept is still rich and valuable for students to explore.  Timestamps: 02:00: Spiritual Direction and Retreats  06:15: Differences Between Spiritual Direction and Other Roles  15:39: Meditation and Prayer in Spiritual Direction  26:45: Challenges and Rewards of Teaching  38:54: Personal Life and Book  40:42: Influential Courses and Myth of America  42:51: Future Plans and Invitation to Retreats  Links: Linkedin:  www.linkedin.com/in/alison-umminger-mattison/ Website:  sacredlistening.net Upcoming retreat:  https://ignatiushouse.org/calendar/spiritual-writing-retreat-jan2025/ Featured Non-profit The featured non-profit of this episode is National History Day, recommended by Zachary Schrag who reports: "Hi. I'm Zachary Schrag, class of 1992 the featured nonprofit of this episode of The 92 report is National History Day. National History Day has given millions of students in grades six through 12 the chance to pursue original historical research and to present their findings in a variety of formats. I am proud to have served as a volunteer judge at local and national contests, and to have contributed to the 50 for 50 fundraising campaigns. You can learn more at NHD. That's National History day.org, and now with this week's episode, it's your host, Will Bachmann." To learn more about their work visit: NationalHistoryDay.org.     

We delve further into this holy priest's love for the Blessed Mother.

Today's poem begins with humble beasts but wings its way to the loftiest mysteries of existence. Happy reading. Get full access to The Daily Poem Podcast at dailypoempod.substack.com/subscribe

G. K. Chesterton wrote: “Oscar Wilde said that sunsets were not valued because we could not pay for sunsets. But Oscar Wilde was wrong; we can pay for sunsets. We can pay for them by not being Oscar Wilde.” Perhaps Hopkins was anticipating that sentiment in today's poem. Happy reading. Get full access to The Daily Poem Podcast at dailypoempod.substack.com/subscribe

Egalitarianism remains one of the core tenets of most liberals and progressives. But does the idea that everyone ought to be equal in the sphere of political economy also hold true for the realm of culture?  Absolutely not, argues Becca Rothfeld, nonfiction book critic at the Washington Post and author of the debut collection All Things Are Too Small: Essays in Praise of Excess. The modern insistence that all cultural objects are “equal” is actually a symptom of our failure to create a society in which genuine equality is present.  That, Rothfeld insists, is why we need more of everything—more personhood, more sincerity, more critical judgment, and even more chaos. It's the only way to overcome the ascendance of anodyne minimalism that has stifled contemporary culture.  On this episode, Rothfeld joins Commonweal senior editor Matthew Boudway to discuss her book, medieval mysticism, and more.  For further reading:  Costica Bradatan on the theology of Simone Weil Thomas Merton on whether mysticism is normal Matthew Boudway on the agony of Gerard Manley Hopkins

An unpublished imitation of Gerard Manley Hopkins' style about the "On Earth as it is" part of the "Our Father." Charles Williams makes an astute theological point, promotes G.M. Hopkins, and benefits from imitating his style. Win-win-win. Can somebody say "Exchange"? Some helpful sources for this one: The Third Inkling The Oddest Inkling

Dr. Michael Hurley, Professor of Literature and Theology at Trinity College in the University of Cambridge, delivers a lecture to students in Ralston College's inaugural Master's in the Humanities program on the intertwining of language and thought in the work of three major Victorian authors: Walter Pater, John Henry Newman, and Gerard Manley Hopkins. Prof. Hurley argues that, far from being merely ornamental, in these authors style is constitutive of thought and the difficult pursuit of beauty is inextricable from the pursuit of truth.    —   Ralston College  Website: https://www.ralston.ac/ Ralston College Humanities MA: https://www.ralston.ac/humanities-ma YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@RalstonCollegeSavannah X: https://twitter.com/RalstonCollege   —   00:00 Introduction to the Lecture and Its Significance 01:40 The Special Context of the Lecture 02:00 Exploring the Relationship Between Language and Thought 04:20 Diving Into the Logos Through Literature 21:00 Examining the Dual Nature of Logos 34:00 Analyzing Texts: A Deep Dive into Aestheticism, Truth, and the Logos 43:40 Concluding Reflections and Open Discussion   —   Authors, Ideas, and Works Mentioned in this Episode:   Pythagoras Anti-Empiricism St. John the Evangelist  Logos Heraclitus Romanticism David Jones Matthew Arnold, “Dover Beach”  Sophocles Peloponnesian War John Henry Newman William Blake W.B. Yeats Margot Collis G.K. Chesterton William James, “The Present Dilemma in Philosophy”  Pragmatism Walter Pater, Studies in the History of the Renaissance Walter Pater, “Style”  Aestheticism  Oscar Wilde Harold Bloom Melos Leonardo da Vinci, Mona Lisa Prolepsis Hypotaxis Parataxis Cicero Virgil Gerard Manley Hopkins, “God's Grandeur”; “As Kingfishers Catch Fire”; “Carrion Comfort”  William Shakespeare, Hamlet   

durée : 02:34:59 - Les Nuits de France Culture - par : Philippe Garbit - La musique et les hommes - Gerard Manley Hopkins (1ère diffusion : 11/06/1980)

Holly Ordway is a scholar of English literature who is a professor at the Word on Fire Institute in the USA and Houston Christian University. Holly has written about literary and imaginative apologetics, edited and annotated a volume of Gerard Manley Hopkins' poetry, and has also gone on to publish major books on the works of one of her literary heroes JRR Tolkien. These are the award-wining 'Tolkien's Modern Reading: Middle-earth Beyond the Middle Ages' and the recently published book ‘Tolkien's Faith: A Spiritual biography'. Today we'll be exploring Holly's own journey and why Tolkien's world of hobbits, elves, wizards and warriors continues to enchant so many in our world.Holly Ordway: https://hollyordway.com/ For Re-Enchanting: https://www.seenandunseen.com/podcast There's more to life than the world we can see. Re-Enchanting is a podcast from Seen & Unseen recorded at Lambeth Palace Library, the home of the Centre for Cultural Witness. Justin Brierley and Belle Tindall engage faith and spirituality with leading figures in science, history, politics, art and education. Can our culture be re-enchanted by the vision of Christianity? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Presbyterian pastor Roy Howard is spending his retirement with and for the birds. From Peregrin Falcons to the birds of Ecuador to Gerard Manley Hopkins, Roy takes us on a delightful birding journey. Links from Roy's show: Gerard Manley Hopkins poem Mary Oliver poem Birding links: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Merlin Bird ID⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠e-Bird⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow The Thing With Feathers: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TTWF on Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TTWF on Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TTWF on Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ The Thing With Feathers is produced by Courtney Ellis. Original music by Del Belcher. New episodes every Monday. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/courtney-ellis02/message

This episode dives into the wonderful world of Gerard Manley Hopkins, the musicality of his language, and the vision he has of becoming what we already are. This poem illustrates the cover of Abram Van Engen's new book, Word Made Fresh (https://a.co/d/ixArJjV). The book explores connections between poetry and faith, and it serves as an invitation to reading poetry of all kinds--with tools and tips for how to get started and explore broadly. Special thanks to John Hendrix (https://www.johnhendrix.com/) for the cover illustration of Word Made Fresh, which is an illustration of "As Kingfishers Catch Fire." Here is the poem by Hopkins: As Kingfishers Catch Fire As kingfishers catch fire, dragonflies draw flame; As tumbled over rim in roundy wells Stones ring; like each tucked string tells, each hung bell's Bow swung finds tongue to fling out broad its name; Each mortal thing does one thing and the same: Deals out that being indoors each one dwells; Selves — goes itself; myself it speaks and spells, Crying Whát I dó is me: for that I came. I say móre: the just man justices; Keeps grace: thát keeps all his goings graces; Acts in God's eye what in God's eye he is — Chríst — for Christ plays in ten thousand places, Lovely in limbs, and lovely in eyes not his To the Father through the features of men's faces. See the poem at the Poetry Foundation. For more on Hopkins, see here (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/gerard-manley-hopkins). The last chapter of Word Made Fresh (https://a.co/d/626hzDG) dwells at length on this poem by Hopkins as an expression of what poetry does and can do in the world.

A joyous Eastertide and happy reading to you all! Get full access to The Daily Poem Podcast at dailypoempod.substack.com/subscribe

Recorded on Sunday, March 31, 2024. Other scripture cited: Isaiah 42:1-9; 1 Peter 1:3-5.Support the show

Hosts: Fr. Steve & Rich Budd In today's episode we talk about the Scrutinies. We hear a reflection on Saint Teresa of Avila. And we listen to a poem by Gerard Manley Hopkins, “God's Grandeur,” read by Sr. Mary Andre.

Recorded by Academy of American Poets staff for Poem-a-Day, a series produced by the Academy of American Poets. Published on January 14, 2024. www.poets.org

In this episode Gyles and Aphra Brandreth celebrate young voices from across the Commonwealth featuring special guests, Ayesha Dharker, Joanna Lumley, Meera Syal and Sanjeev Bhaskar. We hear from the two young winners of the Queen's Commonwealth Essay Competition, 17 year old Siddhi Deshmukh - the Senior Winner from India, and 13 year old Shreeya Sahi - the Junior Winner also from India, with excerpts from their winning contributions on the theme of 'A Youth-Powered Commonwealth'. Poems this episode include: The Blessed Virgin compared to the Air we Breathe by Gerard Manley Hopkins; The Highwayman by Alfred Noyes; La Belle Dame sans Merci: A Ballad by John Keats; and Nod by Walter De La Mare. As well as excerpts from the winning Queen's Commonwealth Essay Competition stories: ‘An Angel That Burns' by Senior Winner Siddhi Deshmukh; and 'Dear Little Prince' by Junior Winner Shreeya Sahi. 

Father James Kubicki, SJ joined Patrick for a conversation about good spiritual reading! Topics included: the importance of spiritual reading (3:25), what to look for (7:25), the Catechism & lives of the Saints (10:34), caller: Every Day with St. Francis de Sales (17:19), Caller: Are novels OK for Spiritual reading? (21:11), Caller: The Fulfillment of All Desire (27:36), caller: Manual for Eucharistic Adoration & Searching for and Maintaining Peace (30:30), caller: I like reading Catholic poets! (34:35), caller: The Way of the Pilgrim (38:51), caller: He Leadeth Me (42:36), and Caller: The Heart of the Matter (44:47).  Full List:  · Scripture · Catechism of the Catholic Church · Imitation of Christ - Thomas à Kempis · Introduction to the Devout Life – St. Francis de Sales · Confessions – St. Augustine · Magnificat magazine or Give Us This Day magazine · Story of a Soul – St. Thérèse of Lisieux · He Leadeth Me – Servant of God Fr. Walter Ciszek, SJ · Blessed Carlo Acutis biography · Every Day with St. Francis de Sales – translated from Italian into English · Consecration to the Blessed Virgin – St. Louis de Montefort · Christ, the Life of the Soul – Blessed Columba Marmion · Novels by Michael O'Brien e.g. By the Rivers of Babylon, Theophilos · Novels by Frederick Buechner (Presbyterian): one about St. Brendan (Brendan), one about St. Godric (Godric) · The Fulfillment of All Desire – Ralph Martin · Manual of Eucharistic Adoration – the Poor Clares · Anything by Fr. Jacques Philippe: Searching for and Maintaining Peace, Interior Freedom, In the School of the Holy Spirit, Thirsting for Prayer, Time for God · Catholic Poets: Hound of Heaven (Francis Thompson), Pope St. John Paul II, St. Thomas Aquinas, Gerard Manley Hopkins, SJ · The Way of a Pilgrim and The Pilgrim Continues His Way – Reginald French · Fr. Arceny: Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father · St. Silouan the Athonite · Wounded by Love by St. Porphyrios · The Gospel Comes with a House Key – Rosaria Butterfield (not Catholic) · The Heart of the Matter – Graham Greene · Works of dialogue between contemporary spiritual figures and saints by Peter Kreeft Emailed suggestions: · The Edge of Sadness by Edwin O'Connor · In This House of Brede by Rumer Godden · Revelations of Divine Love by St. Julian of Norwich · Dr. Brant Pitre: Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist and Jesus and the Jewish Roots of Mary · Poetry of Fr. Paul Murray, OP · Poetry of John Donne (not Catholi

This episode kicks off a three-part mini-series in which we put some of you, our listeners, behind the mic. The episode was inspired by our gratitude for the rich friendship and Christian witness that the podcast has brought into our lives. Today's guest is Fr. Matt Henry, a priest of the diocese of Phoenix, Arizona. Fr. Matt shares the story of how he moved from a “notional” to a real faith in Christ, what continues to nourish his path of conversion, and the intensity of life he has discovered through a ministry of accompaniment. // Fr. Matt offered the monthly challenge of praying an Ignatian Examen (an overview can be found here: www.ignatianspirituality.com/examen-prayer-card/). Tune in to part two of the mini-series to discover the media recommendation! // Other resources we mention: - Fr. Matt's Substack: www.viaexperientiae.substack.com - The new seminary in the Diocese of Phoenix www.saintmarysbasilica.org/historic-new-seminary-to-open - The website and magazine of Communion and Liberation: www.english.clonline.org - The writings of Fr. Luigi Giussani: www.english.clonline.org/books - The poetry of Gerard Manley Hopkins: www.hopkinspoetry.com/poems/ // Our theme music is Nich Lampson's “Dolphin Kicks.” We are part of the Spoke Street media network: check it out at www.spokestreet.com.

This year's Advent series is about the poetry of the Holy Family, the center of Advent and Christmas. Today, we arrive to worship at the manger, brother and sister to the ass and the ox looking lovingly and with great confusion into the unusual bundle resting in the hay. Welcome to the final episode of Advent 2023, on Baby Jesus and love, alongside Gerard Manley Hopkins and Richard Crashaw.

Gerard Manley Hopkins is considered to be one of the greatest poets of the Victorian era. However, because his style was so radically different from that of his contemporaries, his best poems were not accepted for publication during his lifetime, and his achievement was not fully recognized until after World War I. Hopkins's family encouraged his artistic talents when he was a youth in Essex, England. However, Hopkins became estranged from his Protestant family when he converted to Roman Catholicism. Upon deciding to become a priest, he burned all of his poems and did not write again for many years. His work was not published until 30 years after his death when his friend Robert Bridges edited the volume Poems.-bio via Poetry Foundation Get full access to The Daily Poem Podcast at dailypoempod.substack.com/subscribe

Joseph Pearce says Gerard Manley Hopkins is one of the greatest poets of all time. In episode 21 of The Authority, find out why Hopkins is so important, so brilliant, and why everybody, not just Catholics, should know him. LEARN MORE - USE COUPON CODE AUTHORITY25 FOR 25% OFF: Poems Every Catholic Should Know: https://bit.ly/3rlPDwG Poems Every Child Should Know: https://bit.ly/3NDPVqp The Genius of G.K. Chesterton: https://bit.ly/3PJKBV2 The Literary Imagination of C.S. Lewis: https://bit.ly/3PMURvU Further Up & Further In (C.S. Lewis & Narnia): https://bit.ly/3POEnmO Old Thunder (Hilaire Belloc): https://bit.ly/43gCGSm The Hidden Meaning of The Lord of the Rings: https://bit.ly/43uycaZ Shakespeare's Catholicism: https://bit.ly/46G1dTC The Authority with Joseph Pearce is a podcast from TAN that introduces you to the men and women behind history's greatest works of literature. Come along every week as we explore these renowned authors, the times and genres in which they wrote, why scholars praise their writing, and how we, as Catholics, should read and understand their works. For updates on new episodes and to support The Authority and other great free content from TAN, visit http://TheAuthorityPodcast.com/ to subscribe. Use Coupon Code AUTHORITY25 to get 25% off your next order, including books, audiobooks and video courses by Joseph Pearce on literary giants such as Tolkien, Chesterton, Lewis, Shakespeare, and Belloc, as well as TAN's extensive catalog of content from the saints and great spiritual masters to strengthen your faith and interior life. To follow Joseph and support his work, check out his blog and sign up for email updates and exclusive content at https://JPearce.co/. Thanks for listening!

In the words of Gerard Manley Hopkins, “For Christ plays in ten thousand places, Lovely in limbs, and lovely in eyes not his To the Father through the features of men's faces."I have Mass at St. Isidore on Sunday, November 26 @ 9:30/11:30 am.frjoedailey@gmail.com

Today, Debbie talks with Rona Maynard, an author, writer, and former VIP, as she puts it. When she left Canada's leading magazine for women as editor-in-chief, she began looking for her next big project. Around this time, her husband suggested getting a dog. She resisted for several years, then relented. When she was 65, they adopted Casey, a two-year-old rescue mutt with an appealing personality.He left dog hairs everywhere and peed on her favorite chair the day they brought him home. But the result was an unexpected next new thing, a gradual transformation  of how she is approaching life, and a lovely new book, a memoir, titled Starter Dog.//////////Don't miss Behind The Scenes for every new episode in Debbie's [B]OLD AGE newsletter. Leave a comment on Substack and she will respond.//////////Of course, the book is not just about her dog. Rona is an extraordinary writer so it is  the woven story of her life as a young woman and a young wife, her ambitions, her relationship to food (and Casey's), getting older, and how - with Casey leading the way through her Toronto neighborhood - she began to soften and notice more. In the book she illuminates how taking Casey for daily walks ultimately made her a better person. She pulls the past and present together, and, engagingly, includes quotations from two of Debbie's favorite poets: Emily Dickinson and Gerard Manley Hopkins.Rona learns how to be kind (kindness was not stressed when she was growing up in a household full of ambition), how to befriend strangers and the homeless, how to appreciate the details of changing seasons and the outdoors (after working at a desk for so many years), how to be more patient, and how to live in the moment.Because of course while she was growing old - eight years pass - her dog was growing older. Casey is now 10, while Rona's in her mid-70s, and he's teaching her how to embrace old age. Just take it one walk, one squirrel, one bowl of dog food (two if you're lucky), and one day at a time.Mentioned in this episode or useful:Starter Dog: My Path to Joy, Belonging and Loving This World by Rona Maynard (ECW Press, 2023)My Mother's Daughter: a Memoir  by Rona Maynard (McClelland & Stewart, 2009)RonaMaynard.comRona's new Substack newsletter: Amazement SeekerPoet Emily DickinsonPoet Gerard Manley Hopkins Connect with Debbie:debbieweil.com[B]OLD AGE podcast[B]OLD AGE newsletter on SubstackEmail: thebolderpodcast@gmail.comDebbie and Sam's blog: Gap Year After SixtyLinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/debbieweil Our Media Partners:CoGenerate (formerly Encore.org)MEA and with thanks to Chip ConleyNext For Me (former media partner and in memory of Jeff Tidwell) How to Support this podcast:Leave a review on Apple PodcastsSubscribe via Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify Credits:Host: Debbie WeilProducer: Far Out MediaMusic: Lakeside Path by Duck Lake

Amber and Seth Haines have each written and published books of their own, but now this married couple have written a book together—The Deep Down Things: Practices for Growing Hope in Times of Despair. In this episode, Amber and Seth Haines talk with Jonathan Rogers about Gerard Manley Hopkins, writing in partnership, marriage, and recognition, among other things.Support the show: https://therabbitroom.givingfuel.com/memberSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today's poem is by Gerard Manley Hopkins SJ (28 July 1844 – 8 June 1889), an English poet and Jesuit priest, whose posthumous fame places him among leading English poets. His prosody – notably his concept of sprung rhythm – established him as an innovator, as did his praise of God through vivid use of imagery and nature. Only after his death did Robert Bridges publish a few of Hopkins's mature poems in anthologies, hoping to prepare for wider acceptance of his style. By 1930 Hopkins's work was seen as one of the most original literary advances of his century. It intrigued such leading 20th-century poets as T. S. Eliot, Dylan Thomas, W. H. Auden, Stephen Spender and Cecil Day-Lewis.—bia via Wikipedia Get full access to The Daily Poem Podcast at dailypoempod.substack.com/subscribe

Holly Ordway joins Mark Bauerlein to discuss “As Kingfishers Catch Fire” her newly edited collection of Gerard Manley Hopkins’s poems.

On this episode, Holly Ordway joins Mark Bauerlein to discuss “As Kingfishers Catch Fire” her newly edited collection of Gerard Manley Hopkins's poems.

Welcom back to The Literary Life Podcast and our discussion of P. G. Wodehouse's Code of the Woosters. This week Angelina, Thomas, and Cindy finish up the book, covering chapters 10-14. After sharing their commonplace quotes, they start the chat by talking about what exactly the “Code of the Woosters” is for Bertie. Cindy brings up Wodehouse' good experience in boarding school and how that comes out in his stories. Angelina reminds us again of the Roman comic structure that sets the form for this type of story. Thomas highlights some connections between Evelyn Waugh, Oscar Wilde, and P. G. Wodehouse. They also enjoy recounting the moments when Bertie thinks of himself of a detective and compares himself to Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poirot, et al. Find annotations for the slang, quotes, etc., for The Code of the Woosters here. To find out more about Thomas' summer class on G. K. Chesterton and sign up for that, go to houseofhumaneletters.com. To register for Cindy's summer discipleship session, visit morningtimeformoms.com. Commonplace Quotes: The books that should be set before children are books of play and ceremonial, and pomp and war: the whole gloria mundi, the whole pageant of history, full of blood and pride, may safely be told them–everything but the secret of their own incomparable influence. Children need to be taught primarily the grandeur of the whole world. It is merely the whole world that needs to be taught the grandeur of children. G. K. Chesterton, from The Speaker, November 24, 1900 Each be other's comfort kind: Deep, deeper than divined, Divine charity, dear charity, Fast you ever, fast bind. Gerard Manley Hopkins, from “At the Wedding March” I find that my personal animosity against a writer never affects my opinion of what he writes. Nobody could be more anxious than myself, for instance, that Alan Alexander Milne should trip over a loose boot-lace and break his bloody neck, yet I re-read his early stuff at regular intervals with all the old enjoyment and still maintain that in The Dover Road he produced about the best comedy in English. Did you read Milne's serial in the Mail? I thought it good. Nothing happened in it, but the characters were so real. I wonder how a book like that sells. Do people want a story or not? P. G. Wodehouse Pippa's Song by Robert Browning The year's at the spring, And day's at the morn; Morning's at seven; The hill-side's dew-pearl'd; The lark's on the wing; The snail's on the thorn; God's in His heaven— All's right with the world! Books Mentioned: P. G. Wodehouse: A Life in Letters edited by Sophie Ratcliffe Decline and Fall by Evelyn Waugh Murder Must Advertise by Dorothy Sayers Brideshead Revisited by Evelyn Waugh Vile Bodies by Evelyn Waugh Oscar Wilde Support The Literary Life: Become a patron of The Literary Life podcast as part of the “Friends and Fellows Community” on Patreon, and get some amazing bonus content! Thanks for your support! Connect with Us: You can find Angelina and Thomas at HouseofHumaneLetters.com, on Instagram @angelinastanford, and on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/ANGStanford/ Find Cindy at morningtimeformoms.com, on Instagram @cindyordoamoris and on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/cindyrollins.net/. Check out Cindy's own Patreon page also! Follow The Literary Life on Instagram, and jump into our private Facebook group, The Literary Life Discussion Group, and let's get the book talk going! http://bit.ly/literarylifeFB

Friends, does Christianity still have a place in the public square? What can it contribute to the broader culture? On today's episode of “The Word on Fire Show,” Brandon Vogt and I discuss some of the unique ways that Christianity has shaped the modern world. A listener asks, what is the Catholic response to post-modernity, specifically the claim that everything is predicated on power? Links As Kingfishers Catch Fire: Selected and Annotated Poems of Gerard Manley Hopkins edited with an introduction and notes by Holly Ordway NOTE: Do you like this podcast? Become a patron and get some great perks for helping, like free books, bonus content, and more. Word on Fire is a non-profit ministry that depends on the support of our listeners…like you! So be part of this mission, and join us today!