Podcast appearances and mentions of heather well

Embark on an enlightening conversation with Heather Mckenzie Patterson and Katherine Sandoval Taylor, co-founders of On Stage Collective, as they recount their journey from college vocal performance majors to pioneers in the immersive performance program landscape. From adapting to major changes during their studies to overcoming setbacks caused by COVID-19, their unwavering dedication and problem-solving spirit shine through. Through auditions and immersive learning, they've empowered aspiring performers, shaping the future of arts education. Join their exciting journey as they gear up for their upcoming New York show, continuing to offer aspiring artists a chance to shine and fulfill their dreams within a supportive and transformative community at On Stage Collective. Guests: Heather McKenzie Patterson and Katherine Sandoval Taylor Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez TRANSCRIPT MARY: Hi everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host Mary Sturgill. This podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. This is also the podcast where we talk to entrepreneurs and innovative thinkers about their endeavors, and we share their stories with you in hopes of inspiring you. And today we welcome guests Katherine Sandoval Taylor and Heather Mckenzie Patterson, who are both Furman alumni and founders of the immersive production company On Stage Collective. Katherine and Heather, welcome to the show.  Katherine: Thank you for having us. Heather: Thank you so much, Mary.  Mary: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to start because I was of course looking at your all's career paths and your accolades and stuff and you have been… both of you have been in some of my favorite operas and performances. Can you talk and Katherine, we'll start with you. Can you talk about some of your favorite shows that you've been in? Katherine: Yeah. So um, gosh, I've been so fortunate to really be able to check off a lot of bucket list roles in my career. Some of my favorites, I guess, have been Maria in West Side Story. That was a role that I was looking forward to playing my entire life. And I have played that role twice. Love. One of those was actually in South Carolina, with an opera company in South Carolina, and we rehearsed at Furman. So that was really cool. Another one of my favorite roles was from Light in the Piazza. I played Clara and that was a really beautiful production. Another favorite stage memory of mine was when I did two national tours, two national jazz tours. And that was a really great experience, kind of like living the tour bus life for a while. That was fun, and I really got to kind of explore a different side of my voice that I didn't… I haven't had the opportunity to perform that much with, but it was really… it was a really cool experience doing that tour. And I worked with some incredible musicians and singers that I learned a lot from. So yeah, those are some of my favorites.  Mary: Yeah, I love that. Okay. Heather, what about you? Heather: Sure. Um, I would say that, gosh, it's been a minute since I've sung any opera, but I would say that…I did that with Arbor Opera Theater up in Michigan. After I finished my master's up there at Michigan State. And another role that was… I actually only completed scenes of this but it was Sophie from Deb Rosenkavalier..and that's one my favorite operas of all time. So that was really fun. Got to revisit that a couple of times. And I would say one of my most like meaningful memories was singing at Carnegie Hall, which I had done a few times versus a chorister in high school. That was of course like, oh my gosh, I can't believe we're here on the stage. You know, really exciting. And then I went back as a singer with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra and chorus. We went there a couple of times and we sang Peter Grimes, the full opera concert version of the opera there. And while we were in rehearsal for that, I was singing in the chorus it was a big chorus for that and I, the soprano walked down to the front and I was like, next time I'm on this stage, I'm going to be out front in a big poofy gown as a soloist and I even said it to a friend of mine and of course next year like that's, that's where I'm going to be next time and it was one of those like manifest moments where that's what happened. So the next time I got to perform there was as a soprano soloist with a big choral orchestral work, we were singing a Schubert mass, and I bought the big pink gown and sang at the front of the stage with one of my favorite conductors. And it was a blast and probably the best part was just that I had a lot of friends and family come to the performance from all over the country. We had a big party afterwards and so that was just really special to celebrate. Like I saw my parents, you know, in the 12th row like oh my gosh, freaking out. It was really nice to have that memory with people that I love.  Mary: Yeah, I love that idea of manifesting that, you know, speaking that into existence right? I think that's what well, I think a ton of artists do that no matter what, you know, whether they're performing arts or the you know, different kind of art, but I think that that spirit that comes with just being an artistic person kind of drives that in you and you and you have to believe them, right?  Katherine: Yeah, definitely.  Heather: And it can be scary, I think even like I would call myself a recovering perfectionist. And so I would be like, if those perfectionists out there know you don't want to even do something unless you know you're going to be awesome at it like the best perfect at it, right?  Mary: Yeah.  Heather: And so manifesting something like that or saying something out loud that could easily never happen. Like that could easily never work out for you. I wouldn't, it's not in my nature to want to really, like put it out there unless I knew for sure I could just make it happen. Mary: Right. Right. I don't think you're alone in that.  Heather: It was a leap of faith, you know? Mary: Yeah, for sure. I don't think you're alone in that. I think all entrepreneurs and innovative thinkers have that. I mean, we talk to other entrepreneurs on this podcast and they want to get the best, most perfect product or iteration of whatever their venture is right out there. When in fact, we should just literally just do it, right?  Katherine: Yeah, sometimes Heather and I joke about the phrase that we need to implement in our lives a bit more, which is better done than perfect. Because sometimes, as Heather said, being a perfectionist, I would also lope myself into that category of recovering perfectionist. I feel like being a perfectionist can sometimes hold you back from opportunities and, and at least taking that first step to try and that's important to kind of acknowledge that sometimes you do have to take that leap of faith just to maximize your potential.  Mary: Yeah, absolutely. 100% I love that. Say that phrase again. I want to make sure our listeners get that.  Katherine: Better done than perfect.  Mary: Yeah, better done than perfect. That's my new motto. Heather: Always within reason. Mary: Of course. Yes. Absolutely. We always put our best foot forward anyway. So you guys have known each other for a long time. You were roommates here at Furman?  Heather: Yes, we were. Longer ago than I care to say.  Mary: So you're both vocal performance majors while you were here. And of course, you both went on to get higher degrees and stuff. But was there any competition between you for roles and stuff while you're here?  Heather: Oh, that's so funny. Well, I want to clarify that I started out as a vocal performance major, but I did change my major to a BA in voice. And that was because I wanted to double major with psychology. Mary: Oh, that's great.  Heather: At least at the time, you couldn't get like a Bachelor of Music in one thing and a Bachelor of Arts in something else. You had to get a Bachelor of Music in two things and a Bachelor of Arts in two things. And I remember the conversation sitting down with Dr. Thomas, the department chair at the time, to like deliver this news that I wanted to change my major and how was that going to affect my scholarships and was I going to be allowed to do it, you know? And so I…he said, yes, of course, Heather, we will support you doing that and so I was able to shift. And as much as I could, I tried to take like the classes that the performance majors were taking. And so it was just a matter of like, oh, I guess I'll just overload every semester that I'm here to get in all of the credits for both majors. But there were things that I didn't get to take because I wasn't a performance major, just specific classes. One of them I think, Kat you'll know the…Was it a counterpoint class that you had to take a class…that I didn't have to take and by then we were roommates and so she was just like, I hate this. Katherine: She could have helped me. Heather: But to answer your question about competition… I mean, I don't think so. I never would… I'm very competitive with myself. But with the people that I love, like my my ride or die BFFs I don't want to compete with them at all, you know, like I want to celebrate them and to be honest, if there was ever a time where that might happen like, I mean Kat, you can say if this is not true, but I would just not want to audition like I would just want…if I knew it was something that best friend like Kat really wanted, like, I just wouldn't want to audition for that. I would be like, you know her hype girl for that role rather than like, out of my way let me try, you know. I don't recall any competition. Katherine: No, I don't…Heather and I aren't competitive with each other. And I feel like it's just kind of like a personality trait that we both share. We weren't competitive then with each other and we're not competitive now. I feel like you know, I feel very strongly about surrounding myself with strong, talented, passionate women. And being surrounded by strong, talented, passionate women encourages you to be better at what you do. It's not about competition. It's about lifting each other up and empowering each other and learning from each other. And that's something that Heather and I… I've always really respected and looked up to Heather and learned a lot from her and I feel like that hasn't changed. We did that in college. I felt the same way then that I do now… that we empower each other and motivate each other. So, no, there was never any competition between us.  Mary: Yeah, I love what you say about empowering each other and uplifting each other. And I think both of you have been teachers for close to 20 years now. What has informed… how is that experience and your performance experience informed On Stage Collective and what you're doing now? Katherine: Oh, 100% Yeah. Such a large can of worms.  Heather: Well, the reason that we began the company was out of our two studios. So just the background information is that yes, we both have been teaching in different iterations for years. Then we honed our own private studios. I taught at a few universities for over 10 years, 12,13 years, something like that, but we were both building our private studios of voice and piano. And we both think big and we want what we put out there to be excellent. And I think it's been important to both of us to provide great opportunities for our performers, our students to be able to do big things, big performances, big opportunities. And so before, before COVID, we were talking about like, where maybe if we partner up, we're in totally different cities, totally different states. But what if we brought our students together? And really this was… Kat brought this idea to me. What if we partnered together with the students in our studio? And could we do a performance somewhere excellent that they don't have access to and even we don't have access to on our own, but could we pool our resources, pool our students, our talent base, and make something really incredible? And that was like the first conversation. You know, how it started was just to do something with our own two studios that we couldn't do on our own. Kat,  would you agree with how that started? Katherine: Right. And it just kind of took off from there. So we were thinking big, and we took that leap of faith like we just talked about. It was a little bit scary. And I mean, honestly, it felt impossible to think about performing. I mean, fast forward to where we ultimately decided we wanted to try to perform which was 54 Below at Broadway's living room. I mean, every famous Broadway star you can think of has stood on that stage and has… and behind that microphone. And so that was a little bit intimidating and seemed out of reach. And we just put…we're such big thinkers…it was something we wanted to try for at least and then we surprised ourselves and then we had a full, all of a sudden, we had a full cast of people from all over the country ready to perform with us and make this big event happen. And it kind of just like snowballed from there.  Mary: So talk a little bit about that process. And how did you, you already had some of the students, but did all of your students participate in that and how did that kind of come to fruition?  Heather: Yeah, we auditioned them because, you know, I know what my students sound like, but not Kat's students and vice versa. So, we wanted to make it as fair as possible too, you know, and have an outside person judge and choose who would be performing. So we brought in a panel of people, not just the two of us, but other music directors to listen to all of the singers and they didn't know whose student was coming, you know which student was coming from which studio. And so the students submitted videos, I think two full songs, and we had the panel and ourselves rank the singers and came up with kind of like, okay, our max number of singers was such and such number. And so not everyone got to go from our studios and not everyone from our studios auditioned, but we selected people from that audition, and it was basically half and half. Half students from Kat's studio and half from mine. Now, this was pre COVID. And I did want to back up because when Kat mentioned the leap of faith…I feel like the first leap of faith was… I remember where I was standing. We were on a call and it was like should we just call 54 below like is that a thing? Can we just call them? Let's call them. So we did, you know, go to the website, call the number. This was a better done than perfect situation because we didn't we didn't have anything formulated yet or planned or when or who, what. We just called and that got the ball rolling and I think that built the confidence because it was just a normal person on the other side of the phone who just walked us through their requirements and what it would take to be selected, to be able to perform there. And then it's just steps, you know, one foot in front of the other, do this thing, and this thing, then this thing. And so that first cast, I think it was like 24,26, 28 singers, something in that number, and it's foggy because that group did not end up performing at 54 below. And that is because our first cast was set to perform July 2020. So we all know what that means. So we had planned and this was just the two of us putting on lots of different hats and utilizing every skill we'd ever learned or gained to auditioning singers to craft the show to pick the music to assign the songs to the singers to arrange songs like over the phone. How does this chord sound for this because that cannot be a trio… Mary: Wow. And you did that over the phone?  Heather: Yeah. Before zoom was a thing. We were just on the phone trying to arrange songs together. And we did and the singers learned the music. It was so exciting. And it was I think April 2020 that we had to go, all right, if we don't make a choice right now to postpone or cancel this production, like we'll be within the 90 days of owing all of the money that we owe to the hotel and all the things right so we have to call it at some point. And it's it felt still like oh so optimistic April 2020 us. You know, or maybe by July like this, this virus will just burn up in the summer heat and it'll go away. And that did not happen. And so we did. We postponed it at that point to say okay, cast, we're gonna we're gonna try to do this again, but we need to, you know, wait and we tried to do it the following summer, July 2021. But unfortunately, I think there was some kind of whatever strain had come out that previous winter by December 2020. It still wasn't looking good. Mary: Right.   Heather: And people were still worried about going. It was almost worse then. And so we decided to, at that point, sadly cancel. So we had to just say… just end it. And that was heartbreaking. Really difficult to deliver that news to the cast. And then that is when that was like a big shift for us, which was okay, we're not… that's over but we just can't give up on this dream. We've worked so hard. We've put all these pieces together. We know we can do it. But when and how? And we were watching our own students in our studios every performance that they were in that year got canceled. Every graduation, every prom, you know all of our events after the other. Yes, our college students, just devastating. And talking to our singer friends, our teacher friends, directors just, it's just obliterated and it was so so sad. And so then we were like, Gosh, why can't we just open this up to anyone? We don't have to limit this to our own students. Everybody is just dying for a chance to perform again. Why don't we contact everyone we know? All of the choir teachers, theater directors, singers, voice teachers across the country, this network of people that we now know from our performing and teaching and grad schools and stuff and ask them Hey, do you have students who would want to audition for this? We're going to do this. It's going to happen and now we're opening it up to anyone and everyone. And you know, the first iteration was video auditions. So we could still do that, you know, no problem, of course. And so we did, and we were able to build two casts of singers and perform two performances in 2022, which was so satisfying. Many of the singers were still coming from our own studios, so that was especially satisfying to see them performing after all this time. Even some of them who were in that first 2021 cast that was supposed to perform…sorry 2020. But now with singers who…Maine, California, Florida, Michigan, like all… Katherine: Washington State. Mary: All over the country.  Heather: Yeah. Singers from all over who were just craving performing again. And that was really, really nice to fulfill the dream that we had set out to accomplish and also be fulfilling the dreams of all of these young artists. That was just spectacular. Mary: You know, I think you know, 2020 threw a complete loop and especially for those of you who started companies quite right before and… but we do have a lot of entrepreneurs who really either started right before or during and it was a great time… I will say this, it was a great time for planning and for iterating right? Like figuring out okay, this didn't work because… obviously you guys ran into a brick wall, right? And, but so many people would stop at that point, right? That's.. We failed… you know, COVID took us out, you know, kind of thing. How did you and because I'm sure those thoughts entered your minds at some point. And Katherine, I'll start with you on this one. How did you kind of push those thoughts out and keep going? Katherine: Well, I mean, at the root of it, I feel like artists specifically, I can't speak to other entrepreneurs and different, on different platforms. But artists at the heart of everything are resilient. I mean, look at Broadway artists, Broadway was probably the last, the last group of people that went back to work. They were out the longest, and then… but resilience, you know, wins the race. So I feel like even in my own studio, we were.. I was creating opportunities for my students that were unique. And it pushed my thinking outside of the box in a really exceptional great way that I am grateful for, because it made me think about art, performance art, and singing and acting in a different way than I ever had to one thing that we… in my own studio we started doing during COVID, and we have maintained this project to date, was I produce professional music videos for my students, and I partner with a cinematographer. We started that because of COVID because all of our performances for the year shut down. I was on Zoom teaching all of my regular lessons. And so we decided to do these outdoor music video shoots with a cinematographer that I hired and I directed the shoots and every, every music video had a different theme and a different concept and a different aesthetic. And that was a product of COVID and that's the resilience in artists that you see. It doesn't surprise me that there are other entrepreneurs that kind of like… used the COVID time as a springboard to launch their dreams into reality to kind of regroup, put their nose down, and think about what they wanted to do and kind of get a plan and I feel like that's exactly what Heather and I did. We, you know, if we would have if COVID wouldn't have happened and we would have gone on to do the performance as we planned, it would have been about 25 of our singers from each of our studios and it would have been wonderful, and it would have been great. But what happened in 2022 was phenomenal. And we were so lucky to have so many of those same singers back with us and I was thrilled for them, but to also add other people into the mix, to give those people that we didn't know until now the same opportunity to fulfill those dreams was just… it's just so exciting and it's just it was an amazing experience for us to watch I think especially because Heather and I are both people who love being on the stage and we have had many, many opportunities to fulfill those dreams of our own being front and center performing on grand stages. But to give that back to not only our students, but to really any performing artist that is looking for that opportunity. That is just so fulfilling.  Mary: Yeah. And I think COVID showed us there are different ways of doing things. We don't always have to do things the conventional ways… we can work remotely or do things remotely and I mean, you might not have had the people from St. Louis or from Washington state if you had not had that experience maybe.  Katherine: Exactly.  Mary: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Heather:  You know what, Mary, I was trying to think back to how long Kat and I were deliberating, giving up, you know, we're just not doing it when COVID hit and I can't even remember a single conversation that we had about not moving forward. Mary: I love that.  Heather: And not trying again. And that's not to say that we're special. I think it's exactly what Kat was saying about artists being resilient. It's, you know, how many times have we auditioned for things and gotten a no? If you aren't already thick skinned from getting rejections as a performer, maybe it would be difficult to persevere. But that's the name of the game. That's what this is like, you know how… so many no's before you get a yes. This was just another no that we just had to move past and maybe maybe it's rose colored glasses looking backwards. I know it was really scary. And I know there was some floundering as to you know, what does this look like next, but I just don't think we were ever ready to throw in the towel. It was just, it was just a wait and plan and ideate and come up with something better. So I'm very grateful. So so grateful to have a partner and best friend forever ride or die. That was my partner that just doesn't give up. No one I know… And this is just me. I'm just gonna like wax poetic here about Kat, but I don't know anyone..anyone, any person in my life who has persevered more than she has both professionally and personally. So I look up to her. I admire her so much for that. And that encourages me to not give up and to persevere. And so it was, although so scary, I wouldn't have wanted to face it with anyone else because I knew that she wasn't going to give up, I wasn't gonna give up, we're just going to, you know, keep moving forward. And I know that not all partnerships are rosy, or perfect and anything like that. And certainly we've had our conflicts and our challenges, but I think our relationship was forged at Furman in those beginning stages of really crafting who we are as people and artists and that just builds a beautiful foundation for our professional partnership. So I'm grateful for that. Mary: We've talked a lot on this podcast about especially when you're starting out on ventures you have to be extremely selective about who you partner with, who you hire, who are your first hires, and those kinds of things. And I think this is a prime example of, you know, this was probably a natural partnership just because you guys have been friends for so long and you both have the same interest and the same talents and want to get to the same place and help people get there too, right? One of the things that I was thinking about is that my students sometimes when I give them a project or they pitch their projects to me, right? And then they pitch their idea and then they start throwing up roadblocks about why they might not be able to do this idea. And my comment to them is don't place roadblocks where there aren't any right? And so I think that's a good kind of philosophy that you guys, you know, kind of have too, is that even though you know the 2020 one got shut down, that's a temporary, you know, thing, right? And we can work around it. We can go around that road that roadblock right? We've talked a little bit about the audition process and that kind of thing. What's so… I guess impressive to you guys about the just that immersive learning that you guys promote and supply the space for for your folks? Heather: Kat, do you want to take that or do you want me to? Katherine: Why don't you start Heather, I'll jump in though. Heather: Sure. Yeah, so that's really important to us. I think. And that comes from the fact that we have been performers and teachers. So we know in our own experience as performers that you learn by doing and every performance you learn something every show that you're in, you take away things that you use in the next project, the next contract and same with teaching. We're always learning as teachers, right? So I think that although we know how important training is and education, and what we do for a living is teach singers how to sing. But then you really have to do the thing to gain the most from it. It's also like learning a foreign language. How do you really establish fluency in that language? By immersing yourself, by going to that country, and being around people speaking that language. So it's the same with what we do. And that's what we were initially looking for for our own students… was an immersive experience. These students who say I want to go sing on Broadway. Well, have you been to Broadway? Have you walked the streets of New York City? Have you been in a New York City rehearsal space? Let's go do that. Let me take you there and you can experience that life and you can work with Broadway stars, guest artists to impart wisdom to you and then you can perform on that stage at 54 below where these other famous people have performed and decide for yourself is this really is this…do I want this more than anything? Now that I've been here now I'm inspired to go after it and really do the work that it takes to get here for real for real. So that's what we continue to aim for. And that's, you know, the mission is to for it to be immersive and experiential and, and, you know, there are a lot of programs out there that provide classes and you can go to even New York and do other camps and those kinds of things. And a lot of times it's classes and they bring in maybe also Broadway stars to teach classes and to do q&a sessions. And maybe they perform a song with these folks at the end or you know, but are they the stars of the show? That's what we wanted to do. We really wanted to make our performances feature these young artists. The young artists aren't the backup singers. They're not in the background. They are on the stage. They are doing the performing.  Katherine: They are the show. They're the show. Mary: Yeah, like that. Yeah.  Heather: And that's how they learn best and grow and are challenged and we've had singers come back and do the next year's show too, because they know that they will continue to gain experience and the education of a lifetime from doing the thing. And so that's been really encouraging to see as well. Mary: Yeah. Katherine, do you want to add anything to that? Or that was actually a pretty good answer.  Katherine: Heather was talking a bit about how giving them this real life New York experience. I feel like in a way not to say what we're what we do the week that we're in New York is perfect and glossy and there are no blood, sweat and tears put in. But I will say it's kind of giving these artists a taste of the New York experience the New York performing experience in New York rehearsal experience, the New York Broadway experience, the tourist experience, all of those things without moving to New York to have to, you know, pound the pavement and go to all the auditions and get a million nose in New York City. I will tell you getting a million no's is always difficult. But getting a million no's in New York City when you've moved there for you know, to pursue your dream is really difficult. So we're not saying that we're, we're, you know, pushing all of those things aside and giving them this path to Broadway. But what we are giving them is an opportunity to experience all of those things for a week without having to move to New York City to try to go to a million auditions to do one performance at 54 below. We're giving that to them kind of in a really neat little fun, awesome package with a bow on top. Mary: I always tell my students how do you know you want to do something until you actually do it? Right? You might think you want this this life, right? But you don't know until you actually do it and you're either gonna fall in love with it or decide that's not for me. Right? And this is a great way for your students to do that without the expense of living in New York. And like you say pounding the pavement working three or four jobs and going through auditions and classes and things like that. Heather: And I feel like you know, there we've had several, there are two people that are coming to mind, that have made life shifts, career shifts, school shifts based on our program, and that is incredible to see. I know. I know one person specifically I'm thinking of, she attended… She was one of our original cast members. Then she came back for our first actual performance in 2022. She performed again in 2023 and after the 2022 performance, she texted me and said, I've changed, I'm changing my major. I'm going to be a music major and I've decided I have to live in this city. I have to perform here and that is what I'm destined to do. And that was amazing. I've also seen people come, you know that said, you know, I'm not I'm specifically not pursuing a professional career and performing but I will be back to perform with you every year because this is the best of both worlds. I get to live my life as an accountant. And I get to come and perform in New York City, not just like in a church basement, but like on the stage of 54 Below. I mean, you're getting the best of both worlds. And so I love to hear stories like that, from either sides of that. People who are making a life shift and saying I have to do this for the rest of my life. Or people who are going to say, you know, I'm not going to do only this for the rest of my life. But this gives me that opportunity that I would never have if I didn't do your program.  Mary: And that's important too, right? Because it creates a life balance. It gives people that creative outlet, they get to hang out with people who have the same interest and work on their personal craft. I love that. So what's next for On Stage Collective? Heather:  We are excited to be opening auditions for our next New York cabaret, which is going to be next June. So the date of that performance will be June 15. So the week leading up to that will be our immersive week in New York City. And auditions are officially open already. So in the audition is filling out an application, attaching a photo of yourself, headshot type photo and uploading too, one minute video cuts and that's it. So we're excited about that. Mary: And they can do that at onstagecollective.com? Heather: They can. Yeah, they head to our website. Our social media handle is onstage collective official. And so we always post information there as well about what's upcoming. But really excited to go back. I think one thing that really solidified this past performance this past June in New York was our team. So that first go around, it was just Kat and me doing all the things and that was a fun time but what was really special is honing our full staff. So we have an incredible music director and an incredible production assistant stage manager. We have found great band members to join On Stage. We have an incredible photographer and videographer. And now we've got this beautiful group who work really well together. All creative, artistic, passionate, hard workers. And, and that's been really fun. So we're able to now continue with that same group rather than reinvent the wheel every time, which is exhausting like any listener knows. So this feels really good to settle into our group, our staff, and it feels like you know, a family of sorts. And so now we know I mean our music director Jeremy Jacobs is like Johnny on the spot. He's so creative, can do anything. Kat always jokes that whenever we ask him hey Jeremy, what do you think of this or can you do this? His answer is always absolutely. Like who doesn't love hearing that? You know? Right, he's ready for anything. He's so excellent with our  cast members, both our youngest members who are the youngest, 13 years old all the way through our adult members, you know, the accountants who are coming to live out their dreams in these performances. So that's been really fun. We had a great group for this past year and hoping to continue those collaborations with those artists. Mary: Yeah, those kind of yes-men are great.  Heather: Yes-men and women are wonderful to have around.  Katherine: I would like to add, you know, the auditions are open and sometimes a misconception that is out there. I'm not sure how it's out there but people kind of like select themselves out of these auditions by saying like, Oh my god, well, I'm too old. I can't do that. Like I mean that's I'm that's not for me. Or my daughter is too young. She's only 13. She can't perform in New York City. We this past cast I don't know if our youngest,  our youngest was 14. I mean, yeah. So we accept cast members for this same show from ages 13 through adults. And that's something that makes a show really exciting and interesting. These… it's a variety of people not only from different walks of life and different career paths in different parts of the country, but different ages in different places in their lives. And that's really cool.  Mary: Yeah, that is really cool. What, how many folks can you take at one time?  Heather: It's about 25 in a cast. It's all online. If you go to our website on stage collective.com, there's an auditions page that will show you what we are currently casting for… what opportunities are open. And you can click on the application there. Pretty short application. You upload a headshot, two videos, one minute cuts of two songs, and we accept singers on a rolling basis. So as we receive them, our panel will listen to the auditions and make casting decisions. And we'll cast them in specific types of roles whether it's a lead role or a supporting role, that kind of thing. And once our cast is full, it's full. Mary: All right, so before I let you guys go this afternoon, I want to have each of you give a piece of advice to a young entrepreneur in the arts. And when I… when I use the term entrepreneur, I'm talking about not just people who have created their own businesses, right, because I think that artists by nature are entrepreneurial in spirit because they have to go out and sell themselves you know, to the directors and the producers and the people who are making the decisions about roles and whatnot. So Kat, I'll start with you. Can you talk a little bit about some advice that you would give young artists and entrepreneurs? Katherine: Yeah, so I was thinking about this question earlier. And the fact is, so I have two pieces of advice. But the fact is, when I was thinking about it, I wanted… I was like, how can this advice not sound intimidating? Because the fact is, being an entrepreneur, being an artist, being a human nowadays, it's just hard. It's just really difficult. So there are challenges and they're low moments. But the two pieces of advice that I would say are really important, and I think about this all the time, like probably every single day. The first thing is, you've got to have hard work, dedication and commitment and those things pave your path to success. There are very few exceptions and very few shortcuts to a path to success. It really comes down to hard work, dedication, and commitment. If you want anything bad enough, you have to be ready to put the work in. There is no… there just not a lot of shortcuts. The second piece of advice that I would say… this applies to artists. When I first heard about this concept, it was about being an artist, being a singer, but I feel like it really applies to anyone either an entrepreneur or just a person living their life. I feel like it's really important… I tell my students this all the time, it's really important to establish a small inner circle of trusted people, colleagues, artists, coaches, therapists, friends that are there for you and help you in whatever you're doing, whether it's business, whether it's artistry, whether it's just your friends, but because the fact is, everyone has an opinion. And sometimes there are just too many cooks in the kitchen. And everyone's opinion is not always helpful to you on your journey. So it's important to have those trusted inner circle of people that you can go to and say, hey, like for instance, I have a business coach. I don't get business advice from just every person on the street, but I guarantee you every person on the street has an opinion on how I should run my business. That is not…that is not useful for me on my journey and, and in the worst case scenario, it's actually traumatizing to hear everyone's opinion about you at all times as an artist specifically, everyone has a thought on the way your voice sounds. Everyone has a thought on your performance. And if you listen to every single person who had an opinion about your voice, or your business or the way you're living your life, it would be traumatizing. So it's very useful for me as an artist and an entrepreneur and as a person in general to have an inner circle of people that I trust, that I know I can go to, and that their opinions are valuable to me. They matter and they affect me and everyone else gets a nice, very polite, thank you very much. I Mary: I think we should learn that phrase. Thank you very much and then take what we want, leave what we want, right? Because I believe what you say is so true about everyone's gonna give you an opinion. I don't know how many entrepreneurs I've talked to on this podcast that say that every single one of them have faced naysayers, you know, and if you face too many and you open that circle up too big then it can be paralyzing, in fact, right? Katherine: And I'm not saying that there shouldn't be people that tell you no… that tell you when you're making a mistake. Heather would be the first person to tell me if I was making a mistake, and I appreciate that. I don't build an inner circle based on people who are yes men. And yes women. I build my inner circle based on people that I trust, and that their opinions and their advice is valuable to me.  Mary: Yeah. All right, Heather, why don't you take that question? Heather: Yeah, I'll say that my first piece of advice because I've got two also…goes hand in hand with that, which is after you surround yourself with that inner circle of people whose advice you trust….after that, you have to trust your gut. What do you have without your gut? You know, you have to trust your gut and so take all of that information, hone all of that down and then believe it and trust what your gut is telling you to do. And sometimes it will go against some of the advice that you receive. And that can be really scary, but sometimes you have to do that. And the second piece of advice goes with that, which is don't be afraid to fail. So trusting your gut might mean making a mistake and having to learn from that. We have made mistakes in our business. We have hired people that didn't work out or spent money on things that didn't bring value to our company and to our clients. And those are hard lessons, but we improve… we get better because of them. So trust your gut and the fear is but what if I fail? Well, what if you do? Then you're going to learn and you're going to brush yourself off and do better the next time. So that's my advice for people, for students, for college kids, or especially artists and entrepreneurs. Mary: Yeah. Ladies, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation and I could probably talk to you all afternoon, but I know we're all busy. Katherine: Thank you for having us.  Heather: Thank you so much Mary. Mary: Yeah, absolutely. So just to remind everybody, you can get in touch with them. Just go to onstage collective.com If you want to find out more about those auditions and the kinds of things that they're doing with their students. So that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember, this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. Remember, you can catch the podcast two ways now. You can check us out on our YouTube channel as well as of course listening to wherever you listen to your podcast, but make sure that you don't miss an episode by hitting that subscribe button so you're notified when new episodes are released. This episode is produced by Communication Studies major Isabella Martinez. Thank you for tuning in. I'm Mary Sturgill. Until next time everybody, dream big.

Heather Maio-Smith is the Co-Founder, President, and Chief Visionary Officer at StoryFile, bringing global audiences an interactive ecosystem that records and preserves human conversations in a way that removes the traditional boundaries of time and space. Victoria talks to Heather about why this product needed to exist in the world, supporting human connection and storytelling, and the journey to get funding, expand, and plan what's next for StoryFile. StoryFile (https://storyfile.com/) Follow StoryFile on Twitter (https://twitter.com/storyfile), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/storyfile/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/StoryFileApp), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/storyfile/), or TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@storyfile). Follow Heather on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-maio-smith/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Heather Maio-Smith, Co-Founder, President, and Chief Visionary Officer at StoryFile, bringing global audiences an interactive ecosystem that records and preserves human conversations in a way that removes the traditional boundaries of time and space. Heather, thank you for joining us. HEATHER: Thank you for having me, Victoria. I'm excited to have a conversation with you. VICTORIA: Yes, I am really excited to learn about StoryFile and your product Conversa. Tell me a little bit about it. HEATHER: You did a great job on the introduction; thank you. The one thing that I would add is that it's very important that people know that this is video. And this is the differentiator between us and maybe a traditional chatbot, for example. We are video-based. That could mean an actual human being creates the content. The video content is always preferable. [laughs] But you can also do it in some sneaky other ways too [laughs], so it's very interesting. VICTORIA: Right. So as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, you can record a video of a conversation and then use Conversa to turn that into an interactive video where a user has the freedom to ask their own questions. HEATHER: Correct. Essentially, what you do is you answer whatever questions that you like. You're in charge of the storyline script. You create all the questions. The interviewee answers all of the questions via video record, and then all of those video clips are put into a database. Anyone can ask you basically any conversation. Most of them are open-ended conversations. If there are shorter, like, let's say you've only [inaudible 02:03] questions, and it's kind of a focus, you have a point, and it's a focused line of questioning, then that's obviously going to be you can't ask anything. But we usually have the individual introduce it and say, "For example, this is my bio. I've answered a few questions about my life and my career and me personally, so feel free to ask me anything about my career or my life." Then the individuals will know what the parameters are for that conversation. And you could just ask anything, learn anything anytime you want. So it's in real-time for you. No going on Google and searching through 20 pages to get an answer anymore. You should be able to talk the ideas. You should be able to talk to someone who's lived that experience or has that knowledge, ask them a question, and find out the information that you want to find out, or get to know somebody that you would never have the opportunity to talk to. VICTORIA: What an interesting idea. And what led you to think that this was a product that needed to exist in the world? HEATHER: Well, they say that necessity is the mother of invention. I happened to be in Holocaust education back in the early 2000s. And one of the main things that the entire field was concerned about is what are we going to do when the Holocaust survivors are no longer alive? They had spent over 60 years in the public telling their story, talking to students, for example the public. They've done documentaries; they've done books; they've done interviews. The Shoah Foundation at USC has 55,000 narrative interviews. So it's very well-documented. But the one thing that we weren't able to replicate yet, and this is what we were worried about, was they couldn't make that personal connection. And how do they make that personal connection? It's through people asking their own questions and actually engaging with those individuals that that's when the real magic happened. I mean, that's when people felt connected to these individuals and that story, that history. That was what I didn't want to lose after they had passed away. And so I thought to myself, there's got to be a way to replicate the Q&A, you know, the question and answer conversation where I can ask my own question, which leads me to learn deeper than if I was passively watching a video or even listening to a lecture. So I went to the Shoah Foundation, and I said, "There's got to be a way to do this." They said after many conversations, "Okay. You might not be crazy. [laughs] or as crazy as we thought you were at the beginning. But we still don't know how you're going to do it. So go away and figure out how you're going to do it, and then come back to us when you've figured it out." That was my challenge. And luckily, I found an amazing team to help us all figure out how to do it. And we got to the part where we had to take these individuals, like, the video recordings, and we had to have people actually ask them questions and have these conversations so that we could populate the database for a more accurate conversation. And so I was in the public for a couple of years all over the world. And the one question I kept getting the most was, "This is amazing. Can I do this myself? And can I do this with my parents? Can I do this with my grandparents? Can I do this with the founder of our company?" And people came to me, and they had so many ideas. "This would be great for this. Oh my gosh, could you imagine doing this?" And after a while, you say to yourself, okay, what would it look like if we did this for everyone? What would it look like if we made it ubiquitous, allow everybody to replace their FAQs? Every leader in this country, every CEO, every influencer, or any individual who's got something to say that we can all learn from, which, by the way, is pretty much everyone on the planet. They can tell their story, and they can talk about their experiences, and we can learn from that. Even saving time on interviewing future candidates in person. You narrow it down to 10 people. You have them do StoryFiles. You actually engage with their StoryFile, and then you just choose two that you want to meet in person, possibly saving you hours and hours of time. It's just about asking questions and getting an answer in the moment when you need it, not waiting for an email, not going through 20 pages of Google. And it's also about connecting with a real person instead of these chatbots that everybody's trying to move away from. And I think they're trying to move towards avatars because they're more visual, but it's still not a human being. So it's still kind of an automated voice, and they're not real. And there's no emotion, and you don't have any body language. So what if you could just ask a person? You probably get asked some of the same questions. And in the next 2 minutes, you could probably think of 10 questions that you get asked almost daily. So what if you did a StoryFile? You answered all those ten questions and maybe more, and then you never had to have that conversation again. Think of all the time that those people now, if they get in front of you, they don't have to waste time asking any of those typical, basic questions. They can just get right into a deeper conversation with you. VICTORIA: I love it. Yeah, I'm already thinking in the back of my mind, like, oh, I could use these for what if you're trying to show what it's like to work at thoughtbot? And you just want to ask someone at thoughtbot a question, and you could play with StoryFile. Yeah, I think it's enormously useful. And I love the story starts with a hugely impactful mission of capturing those stories. And I wonder how that experience of the importance of storytelling has had on your ability to get funding and get this project through as a founder. HEATHER: It's been a journey. [laughter] First of all, let me say that I think it has been slightly more complex than most startups because, from the onset or the get-go, or whatever you want to call it, this technology has been meant for consumers and businesses alike. So you've got a B2C play, and you've got a B2B play, which is very complicated for investors to understand maybe and really get the vision in its totality. So it's been a struggle to communicate it in a way that people really understand this can be done. You're creating a whole new medium. This is not an I'm creating a new rocking chair type of thing that's better than the other chair that you had. I'm creating a chair. It's a new kind of chair. And you have to take these people on a journey to understanding how much better their lives can be and how much time they can save if they just invest a little bit of time, which they kind of have to do anyway. I mean, look at it, you spend so much time writing FAQs for a website and finding all the answers, and then putting them all together and putting them in the website. You could spend the same amount of time actually getting all those questions, recording yourself answering them. In fact, it probably would take less time. Record the answer, and then, bam, you have it. Everybody can actually talk to you, ask you those questions, and you can guide them. And they get the benefit of actually feeling as though they've talked to a human being. They've connected with you emotionally, and everyone's better off for it. The investors have been...they either absolutely get behind you 100% and love what you're doing and want to be on the journey with you, or they are a bit we'll wait and see. There hasn't been one investor, though, that has said, "You're not onto something. I don't believe in what you're doing, and your idea is not going to work," not one. So we know it has legs. And we just have to build the body and get it from the walking stage, walk to run. VICTORIA: Right. And I see you have quite an impressive client list already. And you recently won an award for best software as a service product for education and nonprofits in the learning and CSR category, so that's impressive. And I want to hear more about how that process has been scaling from you had one initial customer who was the Holocaust Museum, and now you've expanded, and what kind of lessons you might have about that experience, getting to the walking stage, and what you have planned coming ahead. HEATHER: I don't know if I have much advice, actually. [laughter] I could probably use more advice than I can give. Every day, you know, you take it one day at a time, and you move forward. We haven't forgotten where we started, which was in enabling audiences through museums and public spaces to enable them to have these conversations with people that they would not normally get to talk to. There's this studio professional services side of this as well. Then you have, all right, we had to have a back end. We had to have a platform in order to run our business. What if we made that platform available to other companies? Okay, what does that mean? And how does one build that? Then is it built intuitively and easily enough for people to actually do what they want to do with it, which is create these interactive conversational video AI modules (We call them StoryFiles.) for a variety of different cases? I mean, think about every kid can talk to one of the best teachers in the world and learn from them. Every possible person that wants to go on a date could actually talk to potential people. And those people don't even know that they're having these first-date conversations with them, so it saves you that first meeting, that awkward first date. But it also allows you to make a better choice for that first date or, like I said, screening or even onboarding and corporate training. All those manuals that people have written everything and all the information that's in there, nobody wants to go to a manual and look up an answer. No, you're going to go to someone that you think knows the answer, and you're going to ask them. So why not just pull out your phone and do that on your phone, you know? Like, Walmart has this amazing thing that they call financial mentor. They did StoryFiles for new store managers. It's all around answering those questions that you would get as a new manager that you would have running the day-to-day of a Walmart store. So they can literally pull out their phone. They've got their own Walmart learning management system on the phone, and they can talk to a financial mentor and ask them questions. So, what do I do if I have a register that's this? Or I forgot what the form is that you use for this. Or what do I do if my endcaps aren't really churning enough buzz and businesses I think it should be? All those questions that you're going to ask in the first couple of years of taking on a new position. So it's basically anywhere that you have questions and people normally give you answers, you can do a StoryFile. VICTORIA: Yeah, it sounds like a real change to the way people do business and how you can automate some of those conversations and provide a more human touch too. HEATHER: Yeah, it's all about that human touch, isn't it? The one reason I think that people now, you know, for the last three years, everybody's been obsessed with these avatar chatbots, but they're not really solving the problem. The problem is the chatbots don't seem real. You don't feel as if you're having a conversation with an actual person, and that's what frustrates you the most because they don't understand. They don't seem like they're being empathetic. They don't seem like you're relatable. And there's also the uncanny valley, and then the automated voices, and the cadence, and all of that. So this solves all that. VICTORIA: 80% of communication is non-verbal, right? HEATHER: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, but nobody really thinks about that. [laughter] We do digital recreations; notice I'm not calling it an avatar because we do an authentic version of an individual. And most of the time, 99% of the time, the person's not alive anymore. But we work with the archives; we work with the foundations; we work with the families. Nothing that we have that digital recreation say is anything that we've made up. It's always based on what they've actually said and the way that they've said it. So we review, like, we did one digital recreation that we reviewed over 1,700 hours of video. The key thing was getting an actor that physically looked like the individual, and it has to be a method actor. The method actor also reviews some of those videos and really gets a sense of who that individual was. Then they form the basis for the digital recreation for the body language, for the facial expressions, for the cadence of the voice. And then, you do the face mapping and other special effects that you might have to do to the body. Then you do the voice cloning so that you get the person's actual voice. So it's a really detailed process. And what you end up with is probably the most authentic version of an individual that can be created. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at: tbot.io/entrepreneurs. VICTORIA: You mentioned avatars. But that process also sounds different than what I've heard about deepfakes as well. Do you want to -- HEATHER: Yeah. Well, our digital recreations are based on more authentic...they're probably as authentic as you can get to the actual individual. It's not based on, you know, avatars still; even if you do one that's based on 10 minutes of video of yourself, you will still have the uncanny valley. You will still have the broken cadence. You'll still have an automated voice where it sounds automated. They are getting better, and they'll continue to get better. But there's no avatar that you can honestly tell me is going to accurately convey emotion and those non-verbal cues. They can't do it. A computer cannot intuit it. You have to have the individual. You have to have something based from the actual person in order to get the most accurate you can get. An avatar who you're basically treating as a visual chatbot you're just typing in the answers. So there's no emotional connection. There's no body language or cadence that you can connect with in that. VICTORIA: That makes sense. And I can clearly see the...we've talked about the business use cases a little bit. But on the individual consumer side, I'm thinking about making a StoryFile of my grandpa from Pasadena and the value what that would be like to have that family member have a realistic portrayal of them for future generations to interact with. HEATHER: It's priceless. And he's still alive, right? VICTORIA: Yeah. HEATHER: So it's not a realistic portrait. It is him. You could do a StoryFile life. You'd go to StoryFile life. You'd pick out all the questions you wanted to ask him, add your own questions. Every family has got those five stories that individuals always tell at the dinner table during Thanksgiving or something. So you want to make sure you capture all of those. Let's say that he responds to a question that you've asked. And the beauty of it, by the way, is these are questions that you probably would not normally ask somebody in daily conversation. So you really get a sense of who they are from day one, you know, from their childhood all the way through their life today. If they say something that you're like, wait a minute, stop, [laughs] you've got to explain that, you can add a question, add a follow-up question and just say, "Can you tell me more about that?" or "Explain yourself. Like, how did you come to that? How did you make that decision? What went into this move and this shift?" or whatever you want to know more about. "Or how did that affect your family?" you know, so many questions. So it allows you to ask all of those questions. You record your grandfather, which, by the way, is an amazing experience for you; forget him, [laughter], but it's an amazing experience for you. And I guarantee you; you will learn something. To date, I have not had one family say that they haven't learned something or heard a story that they never heard before. So it's a really interesting process. And you feel bonded to that individual after you're done talking and doing this interview in a way that you didn't before. Then you have that recording of this individual that your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren will be able to get a sense of who this individual was, and what their life was like, and who they were to you even. That's priceless to be able to give, you know, we hang on, you go into ancestry.com; you pull up a ship's manifest. And you see your relative's signature. Okay, fine. But what do you really know about that person? Nothing. You know they came over on a ship. [laughs] And you see maybe how their signature looked, but that doesn't really tell you anything. So we want to change all that. We want to flip it all out. We want you to know all of your ancestors. We want your kids to know everybody and learn from them. VICTORIA: I love that. And it's an interesting intersection of this very core human emotion to AI technology or this leading-edge technology. And I wonder, what has surprised you in the technology building side about what ways it easily supports making this human connection and other ways where it's still a challenge to make everything connect? HEATHER: I would have loved to have gotten at least three PhDs [laughs], and then I can think over the last 12 years. Okay, so I started this in 2009. So you got to remember there was no Skype, really. I mean, Skype came into its own...it existed in 2008, but it didn't really come into its own until 2012. Speech recognition wasn't really a thing. We knew it was going to happen, but it wasn't there yet. That was one of the big things that people had to really take a leap of faith with me that we could even get this to work. We didn't know if it would do what we thought it would do. And we were doing this completely...it was a passion play. It was; let's see if we can do this type of thing. We actually did. It did fulfill what I envisioned it being and doing. It did finally fulfill, and I realized that in 2016, so it took that long. And in order to make it ubiquitous for everyone, and you know this because you build software, and you help people with products: to do something for the general public and to make it ubiquitous, and make it scalable, that's a whole nother ballgame. We're taking a process that was incredibly manual...everyone says, "Oh, AI is going to take over the world." No, it's not. No, it's not. It's not even close. It's still so manual. It's based on data. And whatever you manually put in is what you get out. In order to take that and make it automated in whatever ways you can and then keep dreaming about a day where, for example, the follow-up questions that I talked to you about. One day on our roadmap, God willing, next year, you will be able to get that follow-up question actually suggested to you because the computer will know what that individual has said. And the computer will figure out here's a question that you might want to ask, which has never been done before. And there are several things that we have on our roadmap that haven't been done before, but we've been in this zone where you know, other companies have tried. One of our advisors was president of Google Americas. And when she came on board with us, she said, "Google tried to do something similar to this in the early 2000s." But it was just a little too early, and they couldn't figure it out. So they scrapped the whole thing. And with software, timing has a lot to do with it. Your expectations and what you think you can do and when you can do it have to be constantly monitored and constantly re-evaluated. And do the best you can with what is technically available at the moment, and then plan to see how you might make that evolve or improve that or add to that. For example, the field of natural language processing it's at one stage right now, but we have things that we want to do with it and advances that we'd like to see happen. And we're going to have to make those happen if we want to see those happen. VICTORIA: You had both the timing and the need and just enough technology progression to make something happen when you did, and you were able to grow it. It sounds like your family is also involved in helping you along the journey. And I was curious to hear about how that has been for you and -- HEATHER: Okay, so it's not really fair because I grew up in a family-owned business. I'm totally used to it. Everybody asked me, "What's it like working with your husband, and what's it like?" You know, along this journey, we've had various family members working for us, and honestly, that's mostly been a necessity. They happened to be the most skilled and the most talented people to do the job at the moment that I had access to. They got it, you know, it's sort of like the game, okay, tag, you're it. [laughs] Some of them have gone on to do other things; one started her own app called Camber. The other started a PR agency and is doing very well. The other went on to do structural engineering, and the other one is still working for us. And Stephen's my husband's oldest, and I have told her many times even though she does want to go to law school at some point, I said, "No, I'm never letting you leave. [laughter] You're never leaving me." Yeah, it's kind of not fair because we happen to have the ideal situation where Stephen and I are both passionate and have a very clear vision of what we want to do and how to get there, which I think you do need. We respect each other tremendously. I'm in awe of him almost every day. I can see where in a lot of families, it would be problematic but somehow not for us. It worked really well. With investors, it is kind of tricky because you don't want to seem like you're a mom-and-pop shop, either. That's definitely not what we are. We're very focused, and we're very intentional. To some investors, it might seem like we're all over the place because of the B2C and the B2B thing, but it's really not. We explained to them that we're actually building one thing, and that's conversational video. That's what we're doing. It's a big vision, that's all, and it's a massive market. VICTORIA: Yeah, I believe it. I mean, having people in your corner who believe in your vision and you have respect for working for each other, whether they're your blood family or your chosen family, that's what really you need to be successful. And I think it's a common theme we see across people who are able to create these products is that they have a team around them. [laughs] It's never just one person. HEATHER: Yeah, no, it's never just one person. And I've been really, really fortunate. You talk about family that you've chosen. I've been really fortunate to have a lot of the team members who were on this journey with me back in 2010. So that's how far we all go with this and trying to evolve this technology and build this medium and this way of communicating. We're in it. We're all in it for better or worse. VICTORIA: Yeah, I agree. And I assume that that amount of loyalty from your team over that long time is a pro point for investors as well. And I'm curious, so if you could record a StoryFile for yourself now to send back in time to when you were first starting this up, I wonder what questions you would ask yourself [laughs] to be able to give you the advice you needed when you were just starting. HEATHER: To give me advice now? VICTORIA: If you were going to create a StoryFile for when you were starting out if you could be able to ask yourself questions from the future. [laughs] HEATHER: I think it would probably be very interesting to see where I was at, and what I was thinking, what we were dealing with at the time because I think it's some of the things you forget, you know, how you were feeling. We did a lot of video recording back in the early days, especially around different milestones and then different lows and highs. But if I could give myself some advice now, knowing what I know now, it would be your typical don't give up. There are days when you feel like that's it; I can't go any longer. It's not sustainable. You just don't know how it's going to turn out. And you have customers that you're really, really...we're very customer-oriented, so we work really closely with them to make them successful. And there have been times when what they've wanted to do hasn't been something that we were able to achieve entirely. So I would say just keep your head down, keep doing the work every day. Keep moving forward, and just believe in how you're ultimately going to change the world with this. So I think that I believed that 100% ten years ago as well. [laughs] I probably would have said the same thing, actually. There was a woman that had told me she wanted to do a StoryFile with her 10-year-old. And then she wanted to do the same script every five years, but especially do the same thing right before they go to college and then when they come back when they've finished college and do the same interview. I said, "It's a brilliant idea, but why specifically before they go to college and when they get back?" She says, "I want them to see how much they've changed." That makes me cry every time. It's so true. I don't know if you have kids; between Stephen and I, we have five, and they're all 20 to 31. And that time in their lives, from 17 to 22 to 24, you change so radically. I mean, it's almost like you go back, and it's almost like you've got a one-year-old to see how much they changed by the time they're six. It's that radical. I thought that was just a beautiful thing on her part to think of, you know, think of doing. VICTORIA: Yeah, that sounds great. I don't have any kids myself. I do have a two-year-old and a one-year-old niece and nephew. Maybe we'll create one for them when they get a little bit older. HEATHER: Well, then you have to do...is your grandfather their great-grandfather? VICTORIA: No, he's my husband's grandpa, actually. HEATHER: Because when you do your grandfather, then they'll get to know them. You know, there's something about our identity, and it's made up of our parents, you know, our lives, our influences on our lives, and everybody that lived before us. So our point is, why not get to know those people the best way you can? And is that by reading their story? Is it listening to a voicemail that they left you before they passed away in order to get a sense of who they are? Or is it a video of them on a vacation, you know, a video clip? Or is it a story? Or would you want a StoryFile where you can actually have a conversation? You can feel as if you're sitting down at a kitchen table, talking and asking them questions about their life. We want you to do it with everybody, [laughs] even your boss. [laughter] VICTORIA: Right? I think it's a hugely powerful way to connect with people. And if I can get my grandpa to stop watching tennis for long enough to do it, I'll do it. [laughs] HEATHER: I definitely guarantee you can do that. [laughs] VICTORIA: Right? I think we can. I think we can do it. I think you'll enjoy it as much as I will. So I really appreciate you sharing this capability with us. And is there a way you want to shout out how people can connect with the tool? HEATHER: Go to storyfile.com. If it's for your family, for you personally, go to StoryFile Life from that website. And if you're a business, you can go to Conversa also from that website and ask for a free demo. VICTORIA: Excellent. And is there anything you want to give as a final takeaway to our listeners today? HEATHER: It's easy to do. And it's always better to personally connect with someone if you can. Give them the opportunity to really see you, and listen to you, and hear you, the real you. And it doesn't take a lot of time. Everyone has a story to tell or knowledge to impart, experiences to talk about. There's no one on the planet that doesn't, honestly. But you probably doing these podcasts every one you talk to you learn from. It's sharing our knowledge. It's sharing humanity's experiences and knowledge so that we absorb that and we have that. It influences us, hopefully, in a good way. VICTORIA: I think that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing with us and being with us here today. HEATHER: Thank you for having me. Keep up the great work, you guys. VICTORIA: Oh, thank you. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Heather Maio-Smith.

"An advanced practice provider's scope of practice can vary drastically depending on where you practice; listen to the ASCO Education's third episode of the advanced practice providers series, and learn more from our co-hosts, Todd Pickard (MD Anderson Cancer Center) and Dr. Stephanie Williams, (Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine), along with guest speaker Heather Hylton (K Health) on what scope of practice is, who or what defines it, and why knowing this information is critical to your oncology care team success. If you liked this episode, please subscribe. Learn more at https://education.asco.org, or email us at education@asco.org   TRANSCRIPT Todd:  Hello everyone, and welcome back to the ASCO Education Podcast, and the third episode of the Advanced Practice Provider series. I'm Todd Pickard, your co-host for this series, along with Dr. Stephanie Williams. We'd also like to introduce you to our guest panelist today, Heather Hylton. Heather, why don't you share a bit about yourself, what you do, and where you're from. Heather: Sure. Well, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to join you in this podcast. My name is Heather Hylton. I'm a physician assistant based in New York. Most of my career has been in oncology, but I've been fortunate to have been able to serve in administrative and clinical roles in organizations in multiple states. So, I'm currently working in the remote care space, and I'm excited to bring this experience to our conversation. Todd:And Stephanie, why don't you remind our listeners today about your background, and why you have so much experience and really just have a really true appreciation for working with advanced practice providers. Stephanie: Thanks, Todd. I've worked in oncology for almost 40 years and I've had the opportunity to work with advanced practice providers, both physician assistants, and nurse practitioners for a couple of decades now. I've been in stem cell transplants and cellular therapy, and they're absolutely integral to our practice, both inpatient and outpatient in that particular field. Todd:  Well, in today's episode, we're going to be talking about advanced practice providers' scope of practice; what it is, what it means, who defines it, and why it is important for oncology APPs to know and understand what their scope of practice is. So, why don't we jump right in? So, I think it's important to define scope of practice first. So, I would like to just offer a little bit of a perspective around that language of scope of practice. Generally speaking, it is what is allowed by law at any particular state for an advanced practice provider to perform care on patients; what types of patients they can see, what kind of medications they can prescribe and write, what kind of activities they can be in, what kinds of relationships they have to have with other providers and delegating or collaborating physicians. So, generally speaking, a scope of practice can be very, very broad or it can be very, very narrow. And it really depends on the state and how the state defines it. So, I'm going to ask Heather to jump in here and can you provide an example or a story, or a case that comes to mind that helps illustrate scope of practice for an APP? Heather: Sure, I'd be happy to, you know, in terms of how I think about this, very simply stated is, what it is that I'm permitted to do as an advanced practice provider. And the boundaries, as you said around this, are really determined by a number of factors. So, education, training, experience, my competency, federal law in some cases, state laws, regulations. And this may also include, as you mentioned, specific physician collaboration requirements, facility policy, clinical privileges that are granted by that facility, sometimes payer policy factors in, and then of course, the needs of the patient. So, one very common question that comes up in the oncology space is, can APPs order or prescribe systemic therapy? And the answer of course, is really going to be determined by going through that checklist of the entities that determine if this is something that that APP can actually do. So, one example I have is a facility where the module that they utilized for ordering systemic therapy provided system rates only to physicians. And the facility that had been using that module before APPs were widely integrated. So, there were some innocent assumptions made that the absence of the APPs in the module meant it was “illegal” for APPs to order systemic therapy. So, in working with this group, we were able to go through this checklist. So, there were no federal or state restrictions on this particular clinical activity, but it needed to be written into the facility policy. So, criteria for establishing competency were devised. And then an education training plan was designed, implemented, and driving systemic therapy became part of that privileges requests from the APP, and then the systems' rights issues were also addressed. So, this was truly a success story in being able to safely expand the number of clinicians, who were able to prescribe systemic therapy in a busy and growing facility. Stephanie: Heather, what does it mean to you (this is a term that our administrators throw around a lot and our nurse managers throw around as well) to practice at the top of your license, whether you're a nurse, physician assistant, or an advanced practice nurse; what is the top of your license? Heather:  Well, this is a hot topic. And top-of-license practice really comes down to role optimization. It is just good business. It means that the patients and the caregiver's needs are being met by the professional with the appropriate training, experience and competency for each function or task that the professional performs. And from an engagement standpoint (which I know is not the topic of our conversation today, but it is important) we know that people want to engage in work that they find meaningful. While that definition certainly is individualized, a common thread is being able to leverage that education, training and experience you have to help others. And often, the reason why we really pursued our careers. Todd: I think this is such an important topic to talk about, is the top of license practice, because it really impacts all of us, Stephanie. You know, as physicians, you want to do what you've been trained to do, which is to assess a patient, have a differential diagnosis, do a diagnostic workup, arrive at a diagnosis, create a treatment plan, and have that treatment plan implemented so that you can care for the patient. And APPs are the same way. So, when you have folks, whoever they are, whether they are the nurse or the advanced practice provider or the physician or the social worker or the pharmacist, whoever it is; if they are utilized in a way that does not take into account all the skills and competencies that they have to deploy and provide for that patient, they're really working below the top of license. As an example, if you had an APP go from room to room to room with you seeing patients and the only thing that you had the APP doing was scribing, that APP is working well below their licensure. And in fact it's incredibly wasteful with limited resources in healthcare, to have folks who have lots of skills and competencies working at a level where you really should have a different member of the team providing that service. Like if you need a scribe, you should get a scribe. And so, I think that kind of illustration really makes it salient to folks to think about; we should all work to stretch the knowledge and skills and competencies that we spent so much time developing in all of our training and our certification. Because otherwise, it's just wasteful. And as Heather said, it's not very satisfying. Stephanie: Todd, I think that those are excellent points that you bring out and I think that's very important for people to realize that APPs aren't scribes, they aren't there to extend me. They're there to help me as a physician in my practice, to help the patients actually. And then we should work together as a team to give the best patient care that we can. But many times I see my colleagues, just as you said, going from room to room with their APP and expecting the APP, you know, “I'll pontificate and tell you do this, that, that and the other, and then you go out there.” I think also from a career and job satisfaction rating, it's really important to have that team around that can help each other out. And I think that really does help in terms of decreasing burnout and other things like that. Todd: So, Heather, can you give us some idea of how is scope of practice defined at a state or an institutional level? How do people arrive at those kinds of decisions or, you know, how does an institution decide what the scope of practice is? How does it work? Heather: Taking a step back and just, you know, kind of thinking about it through different lenses. So, you know, in contrast to physicians whose scope of practice has minimal variability from state to state, we know that there can be a bit more state to state variability for APPs. And the regulatory bodies or agencies can also be different. And there may be multiple agencies that weigh in on what that APP can do within a particular state. And so, it's certainly important to be familiar with the Practice Act for each state in which you are licensed. And I would also add onto this, in certain geographic areas, this may be particularly relevant to you if you are in a practice that has multiple locations in multiple states, but we'll come back to that a little bit later. But, you know, again, kind of going through your checklist, starting off, looking at what the Practice Act says, and these can all be written up in many different ways. Sometimes it comes across as what I would call like a laundry list, which when you first read it, seems pretty straightforward, but it can also kind of lead you into some issues because if it isn't on there, then what does that mean? Some Practice Acts are written up really more on the basis of what activities are excluded or things that you cannot do as an APP. And then some are just kept very broad, which sometimes makes people uncomfortable, but I would encourage you to not be uncomfortable with that because sometimes, they're written this way in order to give you more flexibility to set that scope of practice at facility level, which is ideally where you really want to be cited. You don't want to create something more limiting or more restrictive than what the state actually allows you to do. Todd: That is a critically important point and one that in my 24 years as an advanced practice provider who happens to be a PA, that has come up often and frequently is, “Well, it doesn't say this” or, “It doesn't specifically exclude that. And so, we're uncomfortable.” And my response is, “Well, that gives us an opportunity to create this space”, because, you know, many times, as you point out, Heather, these kind of ambiguities are written intentionally, so that local practice decisions can be made, so that physicians and advanced practice nurses and PAs can decide as a team, how do we work? You know, in my state, it was very specific that they wanted APPs and physicians to collaborate on ‘what does our practice look like?' And every local level, outside of those very large kind of rules about who can prescribe and who can pronounce a patient dead or write a restraining order — outside of those very large things, they really want us, they want the care team to figure it out and to do it in a way that's best for our patients. I think that is the best approach, is when we get to decide how we work. You know, the places, some of the states that have these laundry lists, you're right, Heather, it seems like, “Oh, that's easy,” but then you're like, “wait a minute, there's only 10 things on this list and we do, you know, 57, what does that mean?” And so, I think it can be very disadvantageous when you have those lists. And I do think it's important to think through these things, work with your legal colleagues to analyze these things, and then take an approach, stake out some territory, you know, once you've gotten informed and say, “This is what our scope looks like, we've all talked about it and this is how we're going to work as a team.” So, that's wonderful when you've got that level of flexibility. I think that's really great. Stephanie: Does insurance reimbursement play any role in terms of scope of practice, either locally or nationally? Heather:  It absolutely can. And it's important to know, for example, if you are in a practice, where you're seeing Medicare patients, to understand Medicare conditions of participation. If you are in a practice where you are taking care of patients with Medicaid or certainly private payers as well, like understanding what is actually in those contracts, so that you can make sure that you are either updating them if you need to, or making sure that what you need to be able to bill for is billable within those contracts. Todd: It's really interesting because I always have a sense of feeling like I need to cringe when somebody says we can't do this because of a reimbursement issue, and also, partially laugh. And the reason why I have both of those reactions is it's typically a misunderstanding, because saying that we won't reimburse for oxygen unless a physician's order is present to prescribe the oxygen does not equate to only a physician can do this. And so, you constantly have to kind of explore these issues and say, “Okay, so yes they use the word physician, but as an APP who has a collaborative delegatory relationship with a physician, and according to my state license and scope of practice, I write physician orders.” So, if you connect those dots, if I, as the APP, have written the physician order for the oxygen, it meets your criteria. It doesn't say a person who holds a medical license, it says physician order. And so, I think that's where you have to really constantly be on guard about these misconceptions, misunderstandings, and these ambiguities. And as Heather said, working with APPs, you just have to say, “Look, there's going to be ambiguities, we're going to work it out, we're going to figure it out. And, you know, reimbursement is important.” But you have to remind folks that reimbursement doesn't define practice, it defines how you get paid. Stephanie: Excellent point, Todd. Excellent. Heather: I'll add a story to that as well. When I first came to New York, I became aware of a situation where the narrative at a particular facility was that a major private payer would not reimburse for services provided by PAs. Now, I thought that was a little strange, but, you know, I was a new kid in town, but at that time — there are more now, but at that time there were 10,000 PAs in New York. That's a pretty big number. And so, I thought, you know, I probably would've heard something about this if this major payer would not reimburse for these services. So, to help with the situation, I started doing the research, you know, looking at specific information from the payer, checking with connections at other facilities to learn about any issues that they may have experienced with this payer, checking with our national organization and so forth. And really, nothing was coming up, suggested that the payer would not buy reimbursement for services provided by PAs. And ultimately, it came down to something very simple, which was the facility just didn't have this in their payer contract, they hadn't needed it up to that point. So, it made perfect sense and it was fixed once the issue was identified. So, this goes back to just being very vigilant about the research that you're doing. And sometimes, it takes a little time to get to the solution, but really that perseverance does pay off. Todd: Heather, I'm sitting here, I'm laughing because I just had a recent example of where the right and the left hand within a state had no idea what was happening. So, an employer who does ambulatory outpatient treatments at different retail locations (we'll just leave it at that) there was this concept that PAs as an example, were ineligible because of the state requirements that then were reflected in this company's policy. And what was so interesting is that a PA colleague of mine started investigating and I said, “Well, what does the state law say?” And she went and she looked and she said, “Oh, it was changed last year that this thing that was causing this policy in this employer was changed.” And I said, “Well, does the company know that the law was changed?” So, she reached out to the medical director who was a physician, whose daughter was happening to want to go to PA school. So, she had an in, she had an in right away, which serendipity does play a part here. And she said, “Did you know that the state law changed?” And they said, “No.” And so, she sent them the state law and then within a week, the medical director said, “Oh, just so you know, we're hiring PAs now, we've updated our internal policies to reflect state law.” So, sometimes it's just these small things that people forget the details, that when something changes, you have to reflect that in your policies of companies or institutions or your practice group. And that's the one thing that I think is so different for APPs from physicians. Physicians are kind of just granted this big broad authority and it rarely changes. It's very stoic and it's kind of fixed. But for APPs it is constantly in flux, constantly in flux. And that's just the nature of it. I don't know why it's been that way. We've organically developed this in the United States over the past 50 years, maybe 50 years from now, it'll be different, but right now, it's not. And so, I think that's the important thing is there's more space out there for advanced practice, scope of practice and top of licensure, than you think is possible. It just requires a little work. Heather: I will say that I 100% agree and, you know, when you take a step back from some of these, like these Practice Acts, they tell a story about the climate in the state and the history in the state. And it's quite fascinating if you like that. I'm not the most fun person at a party, but, you know, these things, they tell a story and it gives you a good sense of what's actually going on in the micro environment in that state. In the last year plus, I've spent a lot of time reviewing Practice Acts of most of the states of the union, and so, I have this ability to really compare. And I also know which states I really, really like and which ones are a little bit more challenging. But there are things like even legislation that's left over from the industrial revolution that's actually influenced how a particular pharmacy interprets, you know, whether or not they can accept a prescription without a counter signature from a physician. And so, some of these things, like when you start drawing some of these lines, it becomes very interesting and it definitely comes down to some interpretation as well. So, always being able to work with a good legal team or people who do understand Practice Act information and working with your state resources as well, as well as your national organizations can be very impactful. Todd:  I would also say step one is to pull up whatever Practice Act is influencing something and read it. They are in English, they're not in Latin or French, they're in English. And many times, you can find something very plainly said. Other times you do need your legal friends to help you understand, “Okay, now what does this mean? I read the words but it's not clear.” But sometimes it will say, you know, “An APP may prescribe a controlled substance.” Period. So, oh, well, there's an answer right there. Now, there may be a how-to section later, in another part of the regulatory or administrative code within a state, but for the most part is, don't be afraid to look, don't be afraid to phone a friend and explore and ask questions. Stephanie:  You're eligible though for controlled substance licenses nationally, right? A DEA number? Todd:  That's a hot topic. Stephanie:  Is it? Heather: There may be other things that you need to do within a state as well in order to prescribe. So, for example, in Massachusetts, even to prescribe legend drugs, you need a Mass Controlled Substance Registration, because any substance that's not a DEA scheduled substance is considered a category 6 substance in Massachusetts. So, if I'm going to write a prescription for Omeprazole, I need to have a Massachusetts Controlled Substance Registration, as any prescriber would in the state. So, again, some of these little nuances, making sure that you're very familiar with that and doing the research. Stephanie: So Heather, you're in New York, I'm sure you get patients from Massachusetts. So, you have to make certain that you can prescribe both in New York and Massachusetts and probably, Rhode Island and all the states around there? Heather: Well, you bring up a really good point, which is, you know,when you are in a practice that has locations in multiple states, and we can talk about telehealth a little bit later. But if you are in a medical group that has practice sites, say in Connecticut, Massachusetts, and New York, licensed in all three states, and you work at sites in all three states, say you're an APP who likes to float and you make these commutes each day. So, all three states may have significant differences in their Practice Acts or what you need to do in order to optimize your practice in that state. And that includes collaboration requirements. So, some states have the ability for nurse practitioners to have autonomous practice, but there may be other steps where you may need a particular license, in order to be able to do that within that state. So, again, being very aware of those steps that you need to take is really important. Stephanie: So, Heather, you mentioned telehealth, which is a big topic through COVID. I don't really have to tell people how big a topic that is. So, what are the changes or what is going to happen with that now that we're “getting to the other end of COVID”? Heather:  That's a big question mark, right? So, certainly, the advancement of telehealth was an important development during the pandemic. And many states have a separate set of laws, regulations that govern delivery of healthcare services through telehealth. So, if your practice is utilizing telehealth to deliver medical services, it's necessary to be fluent in this information. So, this can include important information such as how a patient provider relationship is established. And, you know, it may also include information on prescribing practices, what may or may not be permitted or the conditions under which a prescription can be provided and so forth. And so, some states relaxed telehealth-related rules under state of emergency declarations. And so, making sure that you are up-to-date on this as some of those rules have returned to the pre-pandemic state and some of those relaxations actually became permanent. And of course, if you're billing for these services, knowing the payer requirements and then the policies and procedures you need to follow, in order to bill for those services. And where the patient is physically located at the time that the service is being provided, is the state in which you need to be licensed in order to provide that service. So, if Todd is performing a telehealth service for a patient in Oklahoma and he's not licensed in Oklahoma, he won't be able to see that patient. Todd:  It's really strange because telehealth has brought a different layer of perspective around scope of practice and licensure that we hadn't really faced as much before, right? So, for example, I've been a PA for 24 years. I have been able to call across state lines and interact with patients and talk to them on the phone, get updates on their surgery, if they're having, you know, a postoperative infection, get them an antibiotic and do that kind of work forever. But as soon as you add that technology and that billing entity called a telehealth encounter or a virtual encounter, it becomes a different animal all of a sudden. And this really came to light during the pandemic. And we quickly realized all of these things made it impossible. And that's why all the states did all of these emergency declarations saying, “Just forget it, just take care of people.” But now that we're getting past that, we're kind of going backwards, not because anything bad happened, but because folks are saying, “Well, we want to go back to the older ways where, you know, every state could have differences in regulations and make folks pay those professional fees to get licensure.” So, it'll be interesting to see how this space develops, particularly since our patients are becoming more consumers. Really, they want to talk to who they want to talk to, when they want to talk to them, and they want service here and now. And I think we're going to have to continue to respond and adapt to that. And some places will lead and some places will lag. But those lagging places quickly are going to start having conversations within the state and our legislators will respond. I mean, politically, it will change over time. It just, you know, matters how quickly. So, it's really an interesting thing to watch unfold in real time. Stephanie: Heather, any final remarks, concerns, advice to those out there, both physicians and advanced practice providers, about how to handle questions about, my God, what is your scope of practice? Heather:  I'm so glad you asked Stephanie because I have a list I might be able to pass them along. So, here we go. Do take the time to review the state Practice Act information and laws and regulations and of course facility policy governing a practice where you are. And as the license holder, you are responsible for knowing what you are permitted to do. Please do not make any assumptions about others' knowledge of this. Unfortunately, I've seen people get caught up in that and always own it, yourself. Generally, recommend facility policy not be more restrictive than what is permitted under the Practice Act of the state. Fact check, challenge your assumptions, and if you haven't had the chance to already do so, do check out the ASCO Advanced Practice Provider Onboarding and Practice Guide for more resources. Stephanie: Well, I'd like to thank Heather for her excellent insight into this very complicated topic. Todd, as always, is always on top of everything. And sharing both your experiences and your ideas with us on APP scope of practice, which can vary quite drastically depending upon the state and also the type of institution you practice in. Stay tuned for our next episode. Until next time, take care. Voiceover:  Thank you for listening to the ASCO Education Podcast. To stay up to date with the latest episodes, please click subscribe. Let us know what you think by leaving a review. For more information, visit the Comprehensive Education Center at education.asco.org. Voiceover: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy, should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

INTRODUCTION: Heather Wylde Smith is a native of North Georgia, raised in the birthplace of NASCAR and the Moonshine Capital of the World. She jokes that she's a highly evolved Redneck/Hillbilly. Although she has a Tragedy Resume a mile long, she is living proof that our pasts only define us — if we let them. She often says: “Therapy kept me from jumping off a building. Personal Growth made me stop wanting to jump off a building.” Through relentless pursuit of health and happiness, she has overcome: •  Stage 3 Breast Cancer•  Mental/Emotional/Sexual Abuse and Trauma•  Drug Addiction•  And more! Her tremendous success with personal growth lead her to become a coach. She received her initial coaching training through Coach U in 2009.Today, she is the CEO and mad genius behind Wylde Coach LLC.  She's a Biz Coach for ambitious purpose-driven coaches, healers and service providers who want to expand into their next-level selves in order to attract dreamier clients, raise their prices & restructure their businesses for maximum impact, profit and fulfillment. Heather's new book (Online Entrepreneur's Survival Guide) is available @  https://amzn.to/3mnUbxb She's available as a Guest Speaker/Expert and for Podcast interviews. Her blend of biz expertise, practical tips and outlandish humor make her a dynamic guest that your audience will eat up with a spoon!   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Pitfalls To Watch Out For In The Coaching Industry·      Difference Between A Consultant & A Coach·      The Hypnotherapy Of Stagecraft·      NLP – Neurolinguistic Programming And Mind Tricks To Be Aware Of·      How Trauma Plays Into Sales·      How FOMO Is Used Dishonestly·      The Danger Of Making Rushed Decisions·      What Is The Soul Behind Why You Do What You Do?·      What Should Be Included In A Contract·      Possible Vs. Probable CONNECT WITH HEATHER: Website: www.HeatherWylde.comBook: https://amzn.to/3mnUbxbLinktree: https://linktr.ee/HeatherWyldeCoachFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/HeatherWyldeEthicalSales/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/heatherwyldecoach/Twitter: https://twitter.com/WyldeRomanceLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3pwrmANYouTube: https://bit.ly/3JrNO6c CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixPinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hey, y'all has a wild is back with a brand new book. It's their second time on the show. And I'm so thrilled to have her. Now, this book is called the survivor's guide to entrepreneurship, and this book is going to help people avoid fake business coaches and bullshit like that, and how to avoid debt and regroup.Now in this conversation, we've gone to explore how neuro-linguistic programming also known as NLP and mind tricks play into sales and the traps you [00:01:00] should be looking out for when talking about how FOMO fear of missing out is used this honestly, and what should be included in contracts before we sign them.And of course, Heather and I share our old cocaine stories because that's the type of shit we do enjoy the episode. Hey bitch, have a wild what's the tape.Heather: What's up. De'Vannon: Hey girl. Hey N so y'all, we got, have the wall back with us for the second time, and we got some new shit to talk about. Cause he just dropped up fresh a book on the globe called online entrepreneurs, survival guide, how to choose the right business coach. And there's some other little words after that, but I'm too fucking lazy to read them.And but it's a very beautiful pink, black and white cover book. And pink is very on-brand whether you have there, that's [00:02:00] kind of like your thing. I'm channeling a living, John from Greece.Heather: the pink ladies. De'Vannon: The pink ladies and then the pink version of that black cat suit that she had on at the, at the end of the moving, whether, when they were doing the other one in that wall, she had on the all black, well, when they did like the grease reunion thing, she wore a pink version of that. All black pants, patent, leather, leather suit, she wore pink version of it to the after partyHeather: I have forgotten that I'm gonna have to go back and I have an ex that that was his favorite movie. And so I've kind of steered away from it for like 15 years. De'Vannon: breaking up is hard to do. Okay. So just to recap, y'all Heather has survived stage three breast [00:03:00] cancer. She's been through some mental, emotional, and sexual abuse type of things along with all sorts of trials. You had her own a drug addiction shit to deal with. And you know what, but prostitution, perhapsHeather: you know, 16 work taken 16 years worth. I mean, it's just a bit of prostitution now. De'Vannon: a little bit of pussy DLN on the side and stuff like that. Go along with the cocaine. You know, they do pair well together. We can just ask we can ask them that gates and the, the, the guy who wants to be the speaker of the house, who I pray never will be one of those Republicans. Cause their cocaine orgy shit, just, you know, that T does came out a few days ago.So Heather: Bored. De'Vannon: I'm not judging them for having cocaine or do cause I'm just judging them for oh, telling women what to do with their bodies.Heather: Right? Well, cocaine and orgies is a really dumb [00:04:00] combination because for men it usually gives them performance issues. Meth is much better for orgies because it makes you hard and you can't come for hours. De'Vannon: I've been in the room expecting to get my booty hole filled with all kinds of jazz. And it didn't happen because the dude had coped Dick.Heather: Hope Dick is, is a real fucking thing. And you know, for women, I've seen people, people fetishize Coke. It's so funny. I remember being with this couple when I was escorting and they're like putting the Coke, like directly on her clit and then like licking it off. And I'm like, you just numbed her cliteracy she is never going to be able to come.It's just not a good idea. Anyway, we digress. De'Vannon: No, I tried, I, I snorted a couple of lines of a hard Dick before, seem to mind.Heather: Well, that's because you were doing it. Like I was paid thousands of dollars, you know, to be [00:05:00] a coat mirror for somebody, like I just laid there and they just kept snorting Coke off my boots, my back, my butt, whatever. But then they were. Going to the door and shutting it. Have you been with these people?Like I got to shut the door, so they get up and they shut it. And then two minutes later, they're like, I got to go open the door and then they'll stay in there and the door and they'll look, cause they've gotten, they've reached their point of paranoia. That is annoying as fuck B the Coke mirror didn't bother me dealing with the paranoia was like, oh, there's nobody there.De'Vannon: Well, I've been the paranoid one. So I can't, you know, it is what it is. I can't you know, I can't really, you know, everyone has their roles to play, but nobody's trying to intentionally hurt anyone. So you're, they're making your money there. They're freaking out. Cause they did a bump too many. I've been there a few times.Heather: Yeah, thankfully I'm, I'm allergic to Coke. And so if I snorted it, I would get a sinus infection for a month. [00:06:00] And so I would eat it, but it doesn't give you the same kind of high. Right. And so I never got paranoid off of it. And I mean, you know, I wasn't like, oh my God, you're a deficient person for doing this.I was just like, God, this is boring. De'Vannon: Those were the fucking days. Oh my Heather: were interesting, interesting days. I'm glad that I had them. And I'm glad that I don't have them anymore. De'Vannon: The most, one of the most paranoid trips that I had when I had shot away too much meth. And I was at the VA hospital in Houston and I was, I just, I would just, I was hearing like keys jingle. I thought the cops were coming to get me and I'm in, I'm in, I'm in an emergency room. The cops just can't walk in there and get you.But I'm thinking, I'm hearing the sounds of them coming, like, like their keys and shit. And so. The nurses got so fucking pissed off with me and my paranoia. They gave me a couple of pills to take wait for three days, [00:07:00] I slept through the whole 72 hours. Coroner's home. They were done with my ass.Like this bitch said, babysitting my ass all the way down for three days, I woke up. I was in a completely new clothes. I was in the hospital's probes. I didn't change. They,the doctor was using when those codes over things, a scrape under my foot, trying to get me to wake up and he was reading. The nurses are fail to tell him the hell in her. She gave me too damn much, met too much medicine, but she done with my ass. And soHeather: oh, wow. Yeah, that, that was excessive. De'Vannon: Well, I am a Sagittarius. It's not like this as for, into my demeanor. Heather: Okay. De'Vannon: All right. Y'all so Heather's book is called online entrepreneurs. So in this book, she is trying to open your eyes to [00:08:00] the bullshit, the pitfalls, the scandals, hashtag a scandal and the, and the deceptions that tend to prevail in this whole business coaching mentor guru world.Now tell us why you wrote this book and what qualifies you to have written it.Heather: So what qualifies me to write it is that I have been in this world for 13 years, and I really both as a student of personal growth and as a coach, as a struggling coach and what I, and I've invested in myself over and over again, you'll hear people say, you have to invest in yourself if you want to get anywhere.And it's true. But you have to be smart about your investments. And because I came in with kind of, to my rose colored glasses were a little too rosy, and I looked at this height, marketing is what I call it.you know, where this false promises and they're blowing everything out of proportion. And I [00:09:00] swallowed it hook, line and sinker because I was like, okay, I'm here to help people.I'm a coach. These people are coaches. We're all here to help people. So they're not going to lie to me. Right. So I came in and was very, very, very naive. And I spent a lot of money and didn't really get anywhere. And I spent years blaming myself for it as so many other entrepreneurs do. And wondering what was wrong with me.I'm like, you know, I'm a very good, I'm very much a go getter. You know, I'm an action taker. I'm smart. I'm passionate. I'm a good coach. Why can't I get this? And thinking there was something wrong with me. And then in the past couple of years, I started, I don't know, talking to more people about this, I started to understand more and more about what's going on behind the marketing, why I kept making bad decisions and still, you know, owning the, I made them, you know, but really understanding what's going on with the marketing and the sales in the coaching industry that makes it really difficult to find the right coach.And the book is [00:10:00] written toward new entrepreneurs, but is actually really helpful for more advanced entrepreneurs. People who are actually working with clients to understand why they're still struggling, you know, while they're not getting the $10,000 a month, $20,000 a month that everybody talks about. And it also, if you're just a student of personal or spiritual growth or you're somebody. Is interested in hiring a health coach, like the information in this, it's really all about helping you to see the truth behind the marketing and the sales tactics, and know how to research and how to interview potential coaches so that you find the people that are actually going to help you make progress, as opposed to the people that are just going to take your money.And they really don't care if you get results or not. De'Vannon: When you say that Heather? I think about, so like when I was starting down under apparel that calm my clothing company, which I also have a numb here in Southern Louisiana. Not exactly known for high fashion, certainly not skimping man panties and things like that. Heather: Right. [00:11:00]De'Vannon: No, there was a guy. Heather: Well, there's That part of urban street.De'Vannon: That one part of urban history.There's this guy online who has a store in Oregon. And and I reached out to him and I think I had asked him just to like, so some advice, you know, on like what to do and stuff like that, the sort of thing that I would freely give away to somebody. And he responded with like his coconut Salton packaging, but he has now he's an underwear retailer who owns an underwear store, but he's also trying to be a consultant too.And he's telling me, you know, I've got to fly him to Louisiana and pay him like however many thousands of dollars to to get his system down. Because in your book, you warn about this one size fits all thing. And I kind of felt like he was trying to do that. I'm like, wait a minute, you haven't done a market analysis.You haven't, you don't know how many people are here with the population is. You don't know what, you know, what I'm selling or you don't know anything. And yet you're already telling me how much you're [00:12:00] going to charge and what you can promise me is going to happen. This cannot be, you know, it didn't feel right.So it seems like some people may hop into trying to be a coach too soon because with him, and I've seen this before, like, so is it like an arrogance thing, you know, is he thinking more highly of himself that he should because he's been successful on his one end or does he think people are that damn stupid and he can take advantage of them?Is it a little bit of both?Heather: So it was a couple of things, you know, there's a couple of things that I see that are going on. Number one there's a lot of people like Brendon Burchard comes to mind. A lot of people know Brendon Burchard and some of his stuff is really good. And some of the stuff is really inspiring, but he's one of these big mega coaches and his, I don't know, I haven't watched, I haven't followed him in years, but you know, as of five, six years ago, he was [00:13:00] still preaching that like, you don't have to be trained as a coach.All you need is. Your life experience something you're good at, and you can monetize it, then you can make thousands of dollars and blah, blah, blah. So a lot of it has been created by the coaching industry, telling people what they want to hear in order to, you know, it was for these business coaches that get on and they're like, Yeah. you know, you're a brand new coach.You've never had any training. You have no out, you know, you've never had formal training and whatever it is that you're trying to do, yes, you should use, you should be charging people at least a thousand dollars an hour, you know, And they do this so, that they can sell their coaching packages. Right. So there is a lot of the businesses are unregulated. There is a certification there's at least one like really respected certification process through the international coaching Federation. But. You know, even that whole system isn't perfect, you know, and I don't believe that you have to be certified, but you should be trained as a coach. Okay. So there's, there's number [00:14:00] one.Number two, a lot of people will go through a business coaching program or they'll have their own successful business and then they'll decide, okay, I can help other people with this. And they don't. Some of them are. Realize that just because something works for you doesn't mean it's going to work for somebody else's business.The one thing that God was doing right is he was calling himself a consultant. so the difference between a consultant as a coach is that a consultant comes in and they give you a system and they really don't help you customize it and tweak it. They're just sold on the fact that their system is gold, right?A lot of people that call themselves coaches are really more consultants. A coach really should be asking you questions and helping you figure out what is going to be best for you. And if they're are a specialty coach, like a life coach is really just asking questions. But if somebody is a business coach or some kind of, you know, weight loss coach or something, they should be teaching as well as helping you, you know, figure out what's going to be best for you and your lifestyle.And then you touched on the arrogance thing. And I had talked about this in the book. [00:15:00]There are narcissists and narcissists and sociopaths in all walks of life. They tend to be attracted to you know, politics a lot of CEOs and upper management, you know they just, they work really well in those environments.And I believe that they are very, very strongly attracted to the coaching industry, the personal growth world, because it's an opportunity for them to get thousands and thousands and tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of fawning fans plus make a lot of money. And they're really good in this world because their arrogance, like when somebody is really confidence and confident and they have a lot of authority, it's easy for them to sell to you because you're like, oh, clearly, you know, they know what they're doing.Like they're so confident in it. Right? So there's a lot of different things going on there that, that kind of answer your question. wonder.De'Vannon: Yeah. And so, so a big part of the purpose of your book is to help, to help people to [00:16:00] divine the nuances that will tell what somebodies intentions are. Because a lot of what I read through there, it's like very finite details. You know, like one flip of the switch, one way to the left or the right could make the difference in between whether or not a person's legitimate or not, or whether or not they're a good fit for you or not.These, there, there weren't like a whole lot of big gaping differences. This is very, very subtle. A lot of these things that you point out.Heather: Yeah.It, well, they look gaping to me and thank you for that feedback. They look deep into me because I've been staring at them for so long. Right. But yeah, to somebody that's new in the industry, like you come in and, or, you know, you're just coming in And you're like, oh, you know, I really want to learn Reiki or I want to Yeah.gosh, I mean, I want to have better relationships and you're just coming as an, as a consumer and you get online and it's just like, you're just inundated with so many people who are [00:17:00] like, I'm great at this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.But if you don't know how to right. Ask the right questions and you don't know what it is that you really need, like you can end up in things that don't fit. So for instance, one of my first clients, she had bought into a program that was, it was a business program and they were like, we can help any business.Our system, our system works for everybody. Right. And she gets in it and it's all about going live and she's terrified of going on camera. So she didn't, she didn't ask the question. You know, she, she just got caught up in the hype of, oh, our business. Our system works for everybody. Just come work with us and you're going to be, you know, you're going to make so much money.Your message is going to get out. Yada, yada. You know, we need to ask questions. It's like, okay, that's great. Now, how are we going to do this? You know, our, if you're a business coach, you know, are you going to help me with Facebook ads? Are you going to help me by going live? Are you going to show me you know, how to [00:18:00] really monetize reels?Like, what are you doing? Because there's some things that are going to be more in our wheelhouse than others. Right? We need stuff. That's going to play to our strengths and to our comfort level, especially in the beginning.De'Vannon: Right. And what you speak about confidence, the confidence that people have and they project themselves. I'm remind, I'm thinking about like the charity I'm thinking about hitting the therapy. So like, when I was getting my hypnotherapy training, you know, they explained to us how, when people are like, say up on an elevated platform in our minds, we automatically believe they know more than.But they don't necessarily, they don't necessarily have to have done anything to deserve it. We haven't fact checked anything about them just because they have a suit on and they're on a stage. Well, they must know more. It's just the way we as people are. And so there's warnings, you know, against that.And it'll, and why I'm saying that, so these, so these consultants, girls, whatever the fuck they want to call themselves, haven't done this in a way with [00:19:00] either their social media, but bolstering followers, getting reviews on their websites or whatever the case may be. Preachers do it all the time, you know, through having hypnotic, acquires and bands and all these things to make you feel good and everything like that.And you're too busy feeling good with what the speaker consultant preacher is saying. And you're not critically examining, what's being said, you'll do busy feeling good about what's happening. So your critical mind has been defeated because you're too busy with all the frills of shit, the Freeland shit.And so Our news is the same way. Yes, news politics. Sure.Heather: Yeah. Get you get people into their feelings and they don't, and they turn off their rational mind and their critical thinking. De'Vannon: That's exactly the way it works. Republicans and Democrats alike, but lately I would say more the Republicans because they don't really, they don't really push policies. You [00:20:00] know, they're more like against, you know, who can we be against today? We're going to be against the women who want abortions are going to be against people who want to get high.We're going to be against immigrants. You know, we're going to be against anyone who's not white and conservative basically. And and you know what, they got their little base that's for that and that, and they're all insecure in their own way, which is why they need to destroy other people in order to feel better about themselves.And so. you know, I go on that tirade because there's so much humanity, so much of the human condition. And when I say the human condition, I mean our weakness and our fallenness, the things that betray our highest selves wrapped up into this. And so we have broken people who want to go out and be consultants and girls and all of this and tell other people what to do, but they're not perfect themselves.Now, one thing I like about you like you have a, a chapter line in here, it says making money while being a major [00:21:00] force for positive change in the world, you know, you always tie your consultant, your business in with some sort of spiritual element. So that lets me know that you don't lose the the importance of the person that you're dealing with.And I think that this happens a lot, even in the one size fits all thinking like the guy from Oregon was trying to do with me, or like what you've seen and then not looking at the individual, you know, they're more concerned about the process than the person. So why do we allow ourselves to receive this sort of abuse? When somebody is dealing with us and they're just hitting numbers and figures and promises, and they're not really seeing us, but we're going to go and give them our money anyway.Heather: Yeah. So interesting question. So there's, I had a [00:22:00] conversation with somebody who was a kind of trauma informed. I've had a few conversations while I was writing the book. And a couple people were like trained in NLP and neuro-linguistic programming when used consensually and we're, you know, by the light side of the forest by a Jedi is an awesome thing.Like it can be deeply, positively transformational. The problem is, is that it's a subtle form of hypnosis. And so if you're using it in marketing and sales, which is what is happening you're, it's really, it's, it's really like your mind raping people into like paying attention to your marketing and buying from you.And I had another conversation with someone who specialty is in like regulating the nervous system, right? And people who need the most regulation of their nervous systems are people who have endured a lot of trauma or endured any trauma. Any, any trauma is, is Congo can dysregulate you. Right. And I asked and I said, do you feel like people [00:23:00] that are trauma survivors are more prone to falling for this?You know, these height marketing and I call it sociopathic sales to the manipulative belittling, shaming pushy sales types. Right. And I said, you know, do you feel like trauma survivors are more prone to falling for this? And she said, absolutely. And if you think about it, like so many people that are in the coaching world that are in, especially with people that are in it for the Right. reasons, we've had a journey where we've had to heal ourselves.We've had to go on this growth journey And we've kind of taken everything that we've learned from other people. And I say we, because I, I do transformational stuff too. I'm just kind of, I kind of ended up as a business coach kind of accident, but most of us have gone through some kind of healing and growth journey and we take all the stuff that we've learned and we kind of develop our own system.Right. And so a lot of the people that are coming into coaching are trauma [00:24:00] survivors. And so it makes sense that this really nasty marketing and sales is going to work on. Right. Cause there's still parts of us that we're working on healing and you know, like you said, you've got people that are jumping in and they're coaching and consulting and they are, they don't have their lives.Perfect. It's not about having your life. Perfect. Although a lot of people on social media try to make it look like they've got everything figured out. Like don't go work with those folks. That's a warning sign. Like nobody has it all figured out. But it's just about being further down the road than the person that you're helping.You're, you're further, you're a few steps ahead of them so that you can actually reach back and help them get a few steps further. And ideally you want to be working with people who have coaches themselves and are on still on a growth journey, right. Because the further they go, the further they can help you come as well.De'Vannon: Right. And y'all when she mentioned the neuro linguistic programming, the NLP and things like that, which is a subset of hip hypnotherapy. What she's talking about is [00:25:00] the subtle tones of voice inflections. Word choice. You can use different settings, music, colors, different Body language Body language and things like that, that you're not, you know, in these things invoke a response.So it's a difference if I say, Hey, how are you as opposed to, Hey, how are you? You know, it, it sets a different, it sends out a different vibe to wherever it is, I'm directing it towards. And so if you know how to use the right words with the right, phrasiology and the right tones, the right totals and things like that, you can shift and change the energy within a conversation to your liking.If you're dealing with somebody who's not aware of what the fuck you're doing. And so but this is why those Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak mind that no, one's going to be weak minded by the time they're done with your book.Heather: [00:26:00] Well, that's, that's the hope. And it's interesting you say that about, you know, it only works on people that don't know what you're doing. So there was a great article on medium that a woman, she had been trained in NLP and she had, she was really blasting the people that had trained her because she had paid $13,000 to come to this three week long.In-person. And they had hyped it up, though, this is all you need to start your business. You're going to be a master trainer. By the time you leave, yada yada yada yada. And she said, the first week of the training was amazing and they taught them so much and they were all practicing together. And she said, the second week they started using the same techniques.They had just taught them to try to push them into spending 7,000 more dollars to get the next level of training. And she said it was such a mind, fuck, because she's like, you guys just taught us this bullshit. And now you're trying to use it on us. But she said that out of the 30 people, 28 people signed up and she [00:27:00] said there were herself and one other holdout.And she said they did this whole exercise, which was a visualization exercise. And it was all about like being. It was something about lifeboats. I can't remember the specific name, but it was something about like being left behind, but it was all designed to just really undermine these last two people's inner knowing and make them sign up for this thing.And so it can work on people, even if they're aware, unfortunately. Right. You just have to, you have to be aware and you have to stop yourself and be like, wait a minute. Why am I doing this? Because I really think it's a good idea or because they've really put it in my head that if I don't do this by businesses never going to go anywhere, or I'm never going to get the man I want, or I'm never going to lose the weight I want or whatever. De'Vannon: Well, I will say those 20, those 28 people who were able to suck her into paying the additional 7,000 Heather were, they were probably, they were [00:28:00] freshly taught about this, but more to the point they were still. In the control of the people who taught them, they were still in their arena on their playing field, you know, at their conference, you know, they, you know, they, they were still, they were still on their field.They hadn't had time. Then they had time to go home and let it process yet. And that's why they didn't let them get out and get away from them because their mind was still open and receptive and in a state of hypnosis processing the information. So they still struck out the struggle. The iron was hot.Heather: Oh, absolutely. And that's why you see so many, you know sign up in the next 24 hours or the price is going up or, you know, like there's, there's healthy urgency. And I talk about this in the book, like toxic FOMO, Right. So there's, you know, a little bit of FOMO and marketing where it's like, okay, the doors are closing soon.I've only got three spots left. Right. And if the person is being [00:29:00] honest about that. Okay, fine. But when it goes into the toxic is like, we may never offer this program again. We're never going to offer this program at this price again. And I've seen, like, I've seen people send the same email out saying that for years about things.And so it's like, if you're interested in that program and you have the funds and it works for you right now, then go ahead and buy it. But don't break yourself, you know, trying to buy this thing because you're like, oh my God, they're never going to offer it again because chances are it's bullshit, you know, and never fall for someone.Who's like, I'm the only person who can help you. Like that person does not have your best interest at heart. It's like run like help.De'Vannon: Right. I've seen that recently where a person was like, you know, sign up. There's only two slots left, blah, blah, blah. It feels pushy. I don't like the energy. And so I want to offer this to people until you, you know, you can learn more about what Heather's talking about. You can read her book and learn about NLP and different things like that.[00:30:00] Sign up to take a class or two of hypnosis. I recommend the hypnosis motivation Institute, where I got my hypnotherapy training from you don't have to get the whole certification. You can just take like a class or two specific to what you would like to learn about and be done with it. You can do it online, but you, you, my prayer is that you are at least able to feel when something's not right.And that you don't ignore what that voice inside your head is telling you that disturbed feeling. Now you got to get quiet and listen to yourself. Don't make a decision when you're standing right in front of somebody always go home and think about it, period. Heather: yup. Yup. De'Vannon: Because you know, the, the spirit of that whole act now at quake, there's only two left.First of all, they're lying. They have, they have as many slots as they can feel because they're trying to make as much money as they possibly want to. So it's bullshit and they're not telling the truth. SoHeather: Sometimes sometimes, really like they are down to the wire and they really don't, you know, [00:31:00] don't, I wouldn't automatically dismiss somebody for saying that there's only a couple spots left. If they're trying to rush you. Like, if the rest of their stuff, like, I would note that maybe as a yellow flag, but take it in context.Does that make sense? De'Vannon: requires for research.Heather: Right. Right. You know, because yeah. Some people use it as height and some people, some people are art legit. Like my program is almost full, but I've got a couple more spots. Right. It's like the energy behind it, you know? But the people that are like act now act now out now a lot of that time, like you think about it.I talk about this in the book. If you think about like any hustle movie in econ movie you've ever seen, they're always rushing people because when we're, when we're being rushed, we're off bound. You know, anybody that's shaming you or belittling you, or trying to make you feel like you're never going to get anywhere.If you don't take action by buying from them. And right then that's a problem that person does not have your best interests at heart. [00:32:00]De'Vannon: Indeed in. I wanted to talk about this. I want to caveat a little bit here and to the book writing world, because I kind of pivot back to the importance of remembering the soul behind what you're doing. Now. I get some people more emotional and spiritually inclined than others, and it takes all sorts of people to make this world work.So it comes to writing books, like in the, in the, in the literary world of ghost writer is kind of along the lines of like a literary consultant. If you will, or coach, this is somebody who possesses, but you know, as it is understood more skilled than the person who has the content for the book, the ghost writer can guide the person who has the content into creating a manuscript that is legible and marketable, et cetera.Heather: Right. De'Vannon: So the experience that I had with, with the person who helped me write my first book[00:33:00] And it was a memoir and, you know, these things get personal, you know, when you,Heather: And this is the one that you,just put out, but I've been reading, right? Oh my God. Y'all it is so good. It's so good.De'Vannon: so thank you, baby. So it was your book. And so, but she, it gets personal and I would imagine the same way when you're consulting and coaching, and you're getting down into people's details. At some point you cross the line of just strictly professional to quasi professional and quasi friends and quads. I personal because you're not just seeing them once here and there, you know, you're all up in this person's tea, business, grits and everything.And so I paid him like $40,000 to get two to two packages together because I had a lot of information. It wasn't going to be a simple book and that price is in the middle. The highest I saw was like about 80, 90,000 for a ghost writer. And then as low as you want to go. And then it, since then, Because of what I was trying to [00:34:00] say, I w you know, I felt like it was in the middle and that's all fine, you know, a flu this person down here to Louisiana.So we can go to different cities and stuff like that. I really wanted an authentic read and, and, but, you know, I was new and I didn't, you know, I'm wanting to get into like contract negotiations and stuff with this, because like, as it is now, and I just hadn't had it to do over, I wouldn't, I would've made sure that I had like unlimited revisions or something like that.Heather: Sure. De'Vannon: So he only wanted to do like two or three revisions, but the book really wasn't done. And it was, was so not ready to put out. And then he wanted to come back after I've already paid 40,000. I spent probably another 10,000 and all the traveling and eating out and everything. And now he wants to switch it to $200 an hour to do further work.And so, you know, at that point I felt like. You know, the time that we had spent together and traveling and all of this and letting you know for what's in my memoir, [00:35:00] there's so much more that didn't get told. So he knows like so much about me personally. And I just felt like, and then moment, he stepped back to being just like strictly business with me.And, you know, that's something that I should have known from the beginning. You know, if you're gonna, if the, if the book is unacceptable after revisions two and three, you're going to switch to 200 an hour. You should have told me that at first, you know, not on the back end when you feel like I need you in order to complete it.So now I'm in a situation where I'm thinking, okay, that you intentionally kind of get a little sloppy towards the end of the book, knowing you wanted to turn around and charge me an additional 200, you know, I finished it myself. It's not like I can't write, I just wanted somebody else to have an objective, you know, look on it.And I had already written 50,000 words of it before. You know, turn the project over to him. So I was just like, you know, fuck, y'all just do it. You know, myself, I'm not going to let you hustle me like that. And so, so with the current ghost writer that I have, who's helping me on the don't call me a Christian [00:36:00] book, which will be out later this year, different contract, far less expensive.And if there's anything additional needed, then it's going to be on a per word basis. And I already know this upfront. Heather: right. De'Vannon: And so speak to me about contracts. When, when like a consultant now in the book, Heather breaks down the difference between a girl, a mentor, a consultant coach, all of that, you know, all of that.But when it comes down to the contract, what should we look for? What do we need to have? What should we avoid?Heather: Okay. So first off, I'm not a lawyer, so but here's, here's what you want. You definitely, if somebody doesn't have a contract, that's that scary, like they very least need to have something that makes it really clear, like what their duties are and what the expectations of what you're going to do. Really nails down, like timelines really nails [00:37:00] down, like you know, how many sessions we're going to have, how much time we're going to spend together, you know, those kinds of things.Right? So it's always, it's always good to have a lawyer look over things, you know, but especially in the beginning as coaches or if you're just hiring somebody, not because you want to become a coach, you're not working on anything for work or working on anything. A personal probably don't want to go pay a little. To go over it, but there needs to be confidentiality clauses, you know, in there. You know, you need to know that this person, isn't going to take your personal information and go ride a book of their own or, you know, just splash it all over social media or whatever. The biggest thing is like, and some of it you're just going to have to live in, learn, like, you know, demanding and you went into this and you're like, okay, 40 grand, this is middle, you know, middle of the road.I've done my research. You know, this should be fine. But sometimes there's things that we don't know until we, until we know. Right. [00:38:00] So it's good to have like really, really clear conversations and to ask questions about contracts. And if you've got somebody who is really being a pain in the ass about the contract, like they are like, if you're trying to ask them questions and trying to clarify things and they really don't want to answer, that's not a good sign.It's probably not somebody you want to mess with. But you can just ask questions. know, what happens, you know, how many revisions do I get? Like in the case of, of the book, you know with, you know, with coaching, one of the things that I really encourage people to do, because the old, the old way that's still being practiced by.A lot of people is to say, you signed this contract. It doesn't matter if, you know, three months it's two months in or whatever you decide that this isn't right for you. You're stuck paying for this no matter what, that's bullshit, you know that these non terminable con contracts are kind of. The coaching standard.Right. And so I encourage people to [00:39:00] just ask people like, Hey, if we get three weeks in and I can see that this isn't the right fit, because sometimes you can research and really do your due diligence and everything, but you don't know what it's going to be like until you're in it. Right. Like you can't, you can't guess what it's going to be like until you're actually in it.And you know, you find out, okay, this isn't working for me, you know, have a conversation. Well, what happens if I need to break this contract, if they don't have a termination clause in their contract, just because there's no termination clause doesn't mean that you can't get out of it. Right. So there's kind of a broad, general, anything the contracts like read it.It's legalized. It's lot to slog through. It's a pain in the ass, but read it and make sure you understand what's going on and ask questions, you know? And then if it is something like a project-based thing, like what Davanon went through, make sure you understand, like, what happens if you know the finished product isn't quite finished when you get done. You know, because it is, it is weird. Like you do develop a friendship with people, [00:40:00] you know, especially in longer-term projects. And I can't imagine, you know, how close you would have gotten to somebody that you've been traveling with and all that stuff. And, you know, as, as a service provider, we have to be, we have to be conscious that this is what we do for a living.Right. So we can't let you know, just because we like somebody, we can't like work for them for free. Right. But that's why it's so important. One of the reasons why it's so important to be so clear in the contract about what you're going to do and what you're not going to do, you know, but it is, it's weird every time, every time I've ever entered a coaching relationship or somebody has entered a coaching relationship with me, which has almost always been at the end of the agreed upon contract, it still feels like a breakup.Like it feels, it feels kind of personal. You kind of have to kind of like mourn it. You know, I've been able to go back and be friends with most of my ex clients. And most of my ex coaches though But there haven't been like, I understand van. And why that kind of left. It felt like a funny taste in your mouth. De'Vannon: [00:41:00] Oh, it's a very bitter fucking tastesHeather: he's like not funny. It's better. bitch.De'Vannon: better. You know, if like I never want it. It's like, I never want to see him again. It's like, well, we got to talk about, you Heather: Right? De'Vannon: like that. So, and I want it to remind people. You know a saying that goes, the investor has the upper hand always meaning the one who's spending the money who's paying for the services.So no matter how a salesperson tries to turn it around, how you have some sort of assistant or some sort of coach, who's going to try to bully you and try to tell you what you should or shouldn't be doing this year. The one with the checkbook, with the credit card, with the funds, with the Currans okay.You call the shots. Even if you call them wrong at the end of the damn day, it's your mind me, it can't nobody make you do with your money, [00:42:00] which you don't want to. And as simple as it seems, it wasn't until I came across that in a, in a, in a, in a reading somewhere, I was reading in a writing on the internet that I found, you know, the investor has the upper hand always.I felt so liberated. Because even though I've been the one spending money on stuff, sometimes I would feel like, okay, maybe I should act like they want me to act or do what they wanna do and stuff like that. And I was like, no, bitch, I'm slang in the Dole here. You shut the fuck up. If it comes down to it, bitch.And you do what I say, you got me fucked up.Heather: Well, you know, here, here's where it's kind of like, you have to find your own line because on the one hand we have to realize when we don't know what we don't know. Right. And sometimes we don't know what we do. know, it's like, you're coming into a situation and you're like, okay, I, want to do this. And like, there's like, I may know that I need help with X, Y, and Z, but I don't even know about, you know, ABC, D E F G [00:43:00] like I w I was so I'm, so I'm such a noob.I'm so green. I don't know anything about these other things. Right. And so having a beginner mindset is generally going to help you, like the worst thing for like a coach. Like the worst thing for me is like, I sit down and people are asking me questions and then I'm giving them answers. And I'm not one of these authoritative coaches where I'm like, I know everything and, you know, it's my way or the highway.Right. But there's, there's something. Okay. So I explained it. There's tried and true things that work. And if you kind of imagine, like, if you're going down the center line of a road, those are like the tried and true marketing things. Right. And you can deviate to the right and you can deviate to the left and still have a successful business.Right. But if you deviate too far off, then you're completely off the road and it either doesn't work or it takes way too long. Right. So there's a benefit in, in kind of, you know, not, not getting too crazy with [00:44:00] stuff. Right. But you know, if I have somebody who's like, they're asking me questions and then they're telling me the answer and they won't listen to what I have to say at all.Like, that's we call that not being coachable and that doesn't work, but obviously if somebody's giving you advice and you're like, yeah, that doesn't feel good to me. You know, that's not how I wanna run my business, or that's not how I want to, you know, date or that's not how I want to lose weight, then that person's, they're not the right fit for you.And then you should find a way to like dissolve contract.De'Vannon: Right. I, I concur. And I want to go back and ask you something that I'm into earlier. Those, when the, when that girl was telling you, she was at the conference and they were able to trick the 28 people into the other seven grand, and then they wanted to guilt, shame or strong on the other two that they were, they able to manipulate the other two people or that they hold their dry.Heather: So she held her ground. I don't know what happened with the other person [00:45:00]De'Vannon: Okay.Heather: and, you know, yes. And I talk about this in the book, but we have to take responsibility. This isn't the point of this book is not so everybody can sit around and say,right. Because every single time that I bought into somebody's height, there was a part of me that was like, this is too good to be true. This is too good to be true. It's attributed review. But because there are still things in me that I'm healing, I'm still working on, you know, All of my tragedy resume.I'm still working through a lot. I wanted to believe it. And I, and I let them manipulate me. And so I have to take responsibility for my badge choices. I have to take responsibility for the fact that even though the first three group programs didn't work for me and it should have been very apparent to me that that model doesn't work for me.I signed up for two more. Right. So we have to take responsibility and hold ourselves accountable for our actions. Right. [00:46:00] And be aware that people are doing sleazy things, but you know, you can't just sit around and cry about it and be a victim. Yeah. De'Vannon: Crummy around the area. Let's see. So I just pray for people that they gain strong minds and become the strongest among us. Heather: Yeah. De'Vannon: So in your book, you talk about the difference of possible versus probable. You give these examples of how, like people on social media go, Hey, you can make $50,000 in your first month.All you have to do is this, this, this, this, this, and or whatever fucking astronomical thing. And he's not. And you say sometimes these results have happened. So you don't really throw it all the way out, but you tell us is not necessarily typical. So speak to us about how we can balance our expectations about what's possible when may have happened for some people, because apparently a lot of [00:47:00] consultants and girls like to use their best clients as their examples, but kind of leave out the fact that, you know, these results aren't actually typical.So what's possible. What's probable.Heather: So it's possible to come in and make 10 K your. it can happen. Right. But there's a lot of fuckery that goes on with that testimonial and that, that case study. And they're not telling you. Right. So for instance, one of the things that happens a lot in testimonials with these group programs is they're telling you, you know, my client came in and just two weeks after starting to work with me, she doubled her ROI.Well, they don't tell you that this, this person they were working with already had a business was already making 5k months already had a warm audience. And this person didn't take the group program. They actually were a one-to-one client. Right. So that person's results. Are not even though it's true, it doesn't apply to you if you're a new [00:48:00] entrepreneur and you're taking this group program with a hundred other people.Right. So that's something that happens a lot. And once I understood that, I was like, oh my God, I'm not an idiot. There's nothing wrong with me. Like these people are just not being transparent, so they're not lying, but they're not telling the truth either. Right. So, but I mean, even as a new entrepreneur and there's, there's a whole fuckery around what constitutes your first month in business, a lot of people don't count themselves as being in business until they start making sales.So they don't tell you about the 14 years they struggled and didn't make a dime. They're just like, Yeah.one day I started a business and 30 days later I made $35,000 and it's like, yeah, you were in business for 14 years. You fucking wire. Right. Okay. So. They're there and they're outliers. There are people that just come in and suddenly have amazing results, like sometime, cause it really just happened, but don't let people mindfuck you until you will.If that doesn't happen for you, it's just your mindset. Like it's just not probable. And so one of the things I encourage people to ask when they're on, you [00:49:00] know, calls with coaches or, you know, any kind of mentor consultant, teacher, whatever is ask them what, you know, what are the best results you've helped people to create.And you know, they're going to brag, brag, brag, brag, brag. And then you're going to say, well, what's the average results and they're not necessarily going to tell you the truth. This is where you have to really turn on your discernment. Look at their body language, listen to their voice about how they're answering things.And I also really encourage people to reach out to people that leave testimonials and just say, Hey, do you still stand by this testimonial? Okay. Sometimes people will rewrite your testimonials. Sometimes you gave it during the honeymoon phase when you really liked the person, but by the end of the program that you figured out that they were full of shit.Right? So that's kind of how you're figuring out like what's possible and what's probable. And they also should be able to tell you, like, you know, the person who got the really amazing results, how much time and money did they put in, you know, the person they get the [00:50:00] average results, what kind of time and money did they put in?Right? So you want to be asking these questions and you know, there's so much fuckery amount, mindset and mindset is a real thing, but don't get sucked into this. Well, if you just believe hard enough, it's going to work. And it's like, well, if the program does, if the program were coach or teacher consultant guru or whatever, does it deliver, you're not going to get really good results.And that's not because of your mindset, right? If you're showing up and doing the work, you should be getting results. If you're not, then there's something there's something wrong and it's not your mindset.De'Vannon: Well, the devil is in the details as they say. And that's exactly what you're talking about is paying attention to the little things. So that makes all the difference in the world.Heather: Yeah, but you know, somebody reads this book and you know, it's going to open their eyes and you're going to be able to see in people's marketing, whether they're worth following, whether they're worth even getting [00:51:00] on a call with them. And you're going to know when they, if, if they start trying to use any of the sociopathic sales techniques, you're not going to sit there and start questioning yourself.You're going to be like, wait a fucking minute. No, no, no, no, no, no. Right. And then you'll know like what questions you need to ask. Because the way that coaches are taught to sell is to not believe any room for questions. Right is to just take control of the call and just run it. And to some degree there, you know, you need to show leadership because you are in a leadership position, but it shouldn't be like, the coach is on the mountain top and you're like down here, it should be more like the coach is like a little bit further along than you, right there.They're a leader, but they're not trying to like, make you feel like you're, you know, so far, you know, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be that much of a demand. And my words are failing me. Well they're Yeah,they're not a God. [00:52:00] They're just, there's somebody who has a little more experience and knowledge than you do. De'Vannon: absolutely. They're not a God and they're not perfect. And we. Mistakes. It is important to take people off of these pedestals. We tend to put them on. And you mentioned that it's important that your coach, if you're going to hire a coach or a consultant or a girl that they are also have, they also have their own coaching happening as well.And that's very, very, very important. If another thing a person could ask them, you know, who is your consultant? Who is your person? You say in your book, that is good for people to invest in training for well-respected certifications. Usually behind a coach or consultant named there's all these fucking acronyms that I don't know what the fuck they mean, but it makes them look really smart.Heather: Right. De'Vannon: In my head, it does make me feel like that they are probably better qualified than someone who doesn't have all the acronyms behind their name. So speak to us about the importance of [00:53:00] training, because when I was reading this, you know, I'm getting the sense that you don't want people to, just to forsake the training.I think you said earlier, somebody, you disagree with that. All you have to do is be good at something. And then you can go start consulting. Apparently that's not the case.Heather: Well, so here, here's the thing. A lot of people think that coaching is like giving advice and coaching in its purest form. Like when, when coaching first became a thing, it was almost like going to like the shaman of the village, or, you know, you see in like Hong Fu movies Where you go and you ask the spiritual master a question and he doesn't give you an answer.He gives you a question. Right? So pure coaching in its purest form is really about asking questions and helping the client figure out what they need to do. Right. But when coaching splintered into all these different niches, right. And it became business first, it was like [00:54:00] just coaching. And then there was like business coaching and life coaching, and then it's wintered into like health and relationship and all these different things.Right. So when somebody has a specialty. They're not just poaching, they should be teaching. Right. And what I found in my business coaches and a lot of business coaches, they're good coaches. They're good at asking questions and they're good consultants. I just like giving you strategies, but they're not good teachers.They don't teach you how to actually effectively implement the strategies. And so that's a problem anyway, but the coaching, like if you're going to be a health coach, you need to, you need to understand, like, if you, if you have a nutrition degree from college, you might be able to be a health coach without actually having coach training.Right. Because you have like that background, but somebody who just reads a couple of books on weight loss, and then it's like, yep, I'm a health coach. Like, or [00:55:00] I'm a weight loss coach. Like. Things that you need to understand and a good coaching schools also going to talk to you about ethics, like your coaching ethics.Like I talk a lot about ethics in business, on the sales and marketing side, but there's ethics in like, you know, don't fuck your clients. If you're a coach, right. It's a conflict of interest. Don't, you know, coach close family and friends that can, that can be a difficult kind of sticky situation, other things.So if you really are into this, because you actually want to have an impact, invest in some training and you can go on unity and Coursera and, you know, whatever and get a certification for a hundred bucks or 10 bucks. But the quality of that training, it's it's, you need to go to, you need to get some training where you can actually ask questions.You can actually be mentored a little bit in the process. It's just, it's gonna make you much better at what you do. And you'll have more confidence too, which will [00:56:00] make it easier for you to market and sell, but you'll also be able to actually produce results with your clients much quicker.De'Vannon: Where are there like general coaching schools throughout the country in the world? Or is there just different places depending on what you want to learn or does it, you know, is there anywhere you'd recommend or.Heather: So there's, I don't know about recommends. So I did coach you, coach you is, has been around it's one of the oldest coaching schools. And but there are specialty schools. That one, that one is basically for like life coaching and business coaching. But there's, I went to a sex coaching school when I was doing sex coaching there's all different kind of like splintered into all these niches kind of schools. Right. But if you want to get the ICF certification, which as far as I know is like kind of the one that's most universally known and respected in the coaching world. Go to the international coaching Federation website. And it will tell you all the schools that are actually accredited with them. And then you can go and [00:57:00] research, you know, within your niche or, or what have you.And, you know, they've got a lot of online options. I did mine on person, which I, I really liked some things about, and that I had, I was actually learning in an environment with other people, but it was 60 hours in six days. So it was pretty grueling. So, yeah, I would go to the ICF because here's the thing we're unregulated right now.I don't think we're going to stay on regulated much longer, especially because there are more and more conversations being had about the unethical business practices in the coaching industry. So I think the government's role governments are going to start to step in, and there are now schools that are offering four year degrees in coaching.And on the one hand, I think that that's pretty cool because there is a lot to learn and a lot of cool things you can know, but on the other hand, you don't need four years of college and all that college debt in order to be an effective coach, you do need some training, but you want to make sure that your grandfather had in before that change happens, because [00:58:00] you know, people that have been calling themselves coaches for years are going to really have to scramble, you know, or face fines or, you know, what are, or face going back to school for four years.De'Vannon: Right. So speaking of unscrupulous motherfuckers, you mentioned a sociopathic sales earlier, and now in this section of the book you back into the sense that this has to do with like an ends justifies the means sort of approach. I read a line there about maybe a salesperson might tell you something like, Hey, you wouldn't, you know, you would spend money to keep your kid from dying.It's the same thing. And, you know, have you heard, have you heard people say shit like that and dig deep, dig deeper into what you mean by a sociopathic sales person?Heather: So I'm not a psychologist. And so I'm just kind of using the, the term sociopathic to just mean like somebody does consciousness, right? They, they have, no, [00:59:00] they have no empathy. They have no remorse. They they have an agenda and they will, you know, their, their agenda is made to make a certain amount of money or fill their program with a certain amount of people.And they don't give a shit, they don't kill her. They don't give a shit if you're, so this is kind of where you can kind of get into qualified and unqualified leads to somebody that's a qualified lead. Is it the right starting place and has the right resources, like time and energy and focus to, and they're the right level, right?To get the good out of your program. If somebody is not at the right starting point, it doesn't matter how eager they are. They're not going to get as good a results. Right. Or somebody who like really is flat broke and like they're struggling to eat. And these people would sell them a $5,000 program in a heartbeat.They don't give a shit. Right. So that's what I mean by sociopathic sales. So it's the manipulation, the false promises. It's the shaming. And I go through all the different types of shaming, you know [01:00:00] ambition, shaming is one of the biggest ones like, oh, you, if you're not ready to invest, you know, 10 grand in my program, you must not want this business very much.Oh, oh, I see. You're not ready. You don't want to, you don't want to buy my program right now. I see this must just be a hobby, right? So it's this stuff to make you doubt yourself stuff to make you want to prove yourself to That person is one of the most common things, but that particular line the most sociopathic mentor I ever worked with actually use

Hey everybody. In this episode, I have a fascinating conversation with Heather Dreves who shares some secrets on how to get returns from your real estate without being an expert. Grant Everybody, this is Grant, Welcome to another episode of Financial Investing Radio in the house with me today is Heather Dreves of Secured Investment Corp. Now someone reached out to me and said, Hey, have you taken a look at Heather's profile. And when I reviewed it, I started to realize, hey, there's some things that she's talking about that I've been able to dip my toe in, in the real estate space. And when I saw what she was doing, I thought, oh gosh, this would be really fun for us to hear more about the unique solution that they're bringing to clients. So let me take a breath and say welcome, Heather. Heather Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Grant Very good to have you here. And you know, when we were talking before we got started, I think you probably live in one of the most beautiful places on the planet, which is awesome. So thanks for coming out of the cocoon of beauty where you guys live, talking with the rest of us. Okay, so first things first. Tell me a little bit about how your dreams and what got you going into this business area in real estate? Heather Yeah, well, I think everybody has a story, right? Like, a lot of us started with something else. And then was led down a path that was probably a better calling, per se. I went to college to be a teacher and decided I really liked my children but wasn't really interested in spending all day with everybody else's kids. That's it. Grant That's good to find out.  Heather Yeah, yeah. Well, my kids gonna test it out. They're like, You were terrible at helping us with homework. But anyway, so stayed home with our kids for a long time, we were kind of entrepreneurs and my husband was running an indoor soccer center facility. But I had a very good friend of mine that was in the private money industry. So when our youngest son was in school full time, I decided to go back out into the adult world. And he's like, you know, come to work for me. I said, I have no idea what you do I have a mortgage, is it the same thing? He's like, No, come down to my office. So long story short, 20 years ago, walked in there and just, it blew my mind. I had no idea that one, if you were a real estate investor, you could get funding outside of a bank and traditional sources. And two, I had no idea that you could invest money that way. I thought everybody went to a financial advisor, everybody, you know, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, like I just I was, my eyes were wide open. Grant I mean, that's such an uncommon knowledge just right there. Even some of our listeners will be like, wait a minute backup, say that phrase again, you can do what say that one more time. Heather So you can buy real estate, and get funding for real estate transactions outside of a bank. So you can acquire what we would call private money lending to buy real estate, a lot less restrictive than a bank, you know, they typically private lenders will look at what we call an after repair value, which banks don't do, you know, they want to know what's that property worth as it sits, and that's the most they're gonna lend on it. private lenders are much more creative. And they can look at a property and say, hey, I can see the value you're going to add, and I can see your vision. Absolutely will end on that. And so, that was mind blowing to me first. And then I started started with working with investors that said, you know, I've got money in the stock market, but I also want to invest in real estate. But here's the deal. I don't want to own the real estate. I don't want to rehab the house. I don't want to deal with a tenant and toilet but I want to reap the benefits of that. Grant So intended for more passive participation. Is that the idea? Heather Absolutely. Yep. So I'll huge majority of my clients, you know, have been active real estate investors in the past. They like real estate as an asset class. Again, they don't want to do it themselves, but they want To be the lender per se, and so there was this opportunity to match active real estate investors with people that are looking for a more passive Path to Wealth and and match the two and it benefits everybody. Right? Grant So what's the what's the typical profile of someone coming to service like this? Heather I would say on the borrower's the active investor side, you know, there there are people fixing and flipping, and they're everything from the guy that has a full time job that's doing it on the weekend to the very active clients that are for like 100 houses, really now they don't want to deal with a bank. There's too many restrictions. You know, we obviously have a very clearly defined guideline process and underwriting process, but it's much different than a thing. We're we're focusing on the asset, and then also focusing our attention on the borrower, we're making sure that they have the financial wherewithal to actually finish the deal. Can they make the payments, you know, all those things, we look at credit. But then on the on the passive side, the clients I mostly deal with there, you know, one of the niches I've really gotten involved with is high net worth dentist right now. Grant Did you say dentists? Heather Dentists. Grant Okay, I did not expect you to say dentists. Heather Well, here's the thing. They have tons of capital, right? Yeah, they have no time to manage their money invested, you know, and a lot of times their biggest asset is their business, they'll sell their practice, when they retire. Now, they have this influx of massive capital. Oh, interesting. A lot of them are very educated with real estate, but they don't have the time to do it. And so I would say that the profile for my passive people are people that have started to create some wealth for themselves, and they want to either create cash flow, so maybe they're retiring. And they don't want to tap into what they've saved, but they want to live off their earnings. Got it, or a new niche I've really I'm pretty excited about is our growth minded clients. So you know, I don't know how much you know, about a real estate fund. But for a long time, you had to be a high net worth accredited investor to even ever think of investing in these types of funds that we're talking about REITs. Yeah, well, we are similar to a REIT. But we are a privately managed real estate. Oh, interesting. Okay, got it. Well, we're privately managed, but the model is the same. It's real estate assets, throwing off profit. And that's how people make money as off their earnings. But 10 years ago, you could only open that type of fund up, if you were what's called an accredited investor. That's the only people that could invest. So you had to have a million dollars in assets over income of $200,000 a year 300. As a couple. We feel really passionate, we think everybody should have the opportunity create wealth. So four years ago, we actually have the ability to open up what's called a Regulation A fund, and anybody can invest in it. We started our minimum at $1,000. And it's open to anybody, and we pride ourselves on this, it took a long time to get approved for this spot. Grant That's fascinating. Okay, that's the first I've heard of something like that. How many organizations do that?  Heather I mean, I haven't heard of anyone, not many that are a real estate fund. Most of the time, they're a crowdfunding platform. So you're, you know, you're investing in a platform, that's an angel investor, or they, they provide business loans. There are only a few real estate funds in the United States that were approved for that. So it's pretty uncommon. Grant That is, wow, that's very interesting. Okay, that must have taken a lot of effort to get that I mean, so that's feels like that's such an untapped market too. Huge market. Heather What we cater to is we work with a lot of clients that have 401k Is that they didn't move from a previous employer have small Ira balances, you know, they funded it with six grand and, and then they never did anything with it. This is a great opportunity for those kinds of funds. You can roll those accounts over to self directed custodians. So they're still tax deferred, you're not, you're not taking a distribution on it, okay? You're just, you're just now deciding where you want to invest it instead of having a financial advisor or a money manager, and I'm not here to tell you to people to pull all their money out from their financial advisor, really, it's just a way to diversify. And it gives people the ability with small dollars to invest in real estate because a lot of people think, well, I've got to have, you know, a couple 100 grand to buy real estate, no, you don't, you could invest in a fund that's investing in real estate and you reap the benefits of it and you have zero headaches.  Grant That's, that's awesome. So let me say back to you because it sounds almost too good to be true. Okay. You're telling me that someone could take their four When k or whatever other capital they have, there's not a bar, a minimum bar, they can roll that into this investment fund investment fund is going to be making the investment decisions, as well as managing the properties. And these people then just participate that investment participate in sort of a passive, passive return is that you said? Heather Yep, yep. Grant That's really awesome.  Heather Average yields are eight to 9%. We've managed funds for 10 years. So we have a really good track record. They are very regulated by the SEC. So there is a another set of eyes overseeing it. And they're fully audited funds. Grant Okay. Okay. Then what's the risk side? Heather Well, the risk side is, you know, not any different than any other investment, right risk is the market shift values decrease, I will tell you that our funds are a little bit different than most in the sense that we focus around residential real estate, okay. And we were not what people would call a syndication where we're investing in apartment complexes, we focus our investments around single family up to four units, all in the affordable housing market space. So we do two things with the funds. So part of the fund, we lend the money out. So real estate investors that are wanting to fix and flip we'll lend them money, we take a first lien against their property. So worst case scenario, they don't pay, we foreclose on the house. And now we own a house with 30% equity in it because we don't lend more than 70% of the the other portion of the fund we buy real estate, specifically in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, and Spokane, Washington. So we invest in projects locally. We don't preach people trying to manage a rehab five states over and we don't do it either. So that's our model. Grant So are all of your properties in that area, then? Heather Yes, all the hard assets that we buy are only local, we went out is nationwide. Grant Because I've worked with I've worked with some groups that will take the approach of the look for places in the US where the volatility of the real estate market is small. The intent is to create a cash flow through sort of this renter model, if you get appreciation on the property great, but it's not about that it's more about sort of that rental cashflow. How different are you from from something like that?  Heather Well, we look at all of that. And that's another reason that we stay in the affordable housing market space. Because let's let's say that, you know, our exit is to rehab a house and flip it and the profits flow back into the fund and the market shifts. When you're in that affordable housing market space, you have a huge opportunity to cash flow that property in the event that you need to write out, you know, values decreasing. So we're much like that. And I think you'll have to be as a fund manager, you have to be nimble, you have to have multiple strategies. If you start relying on one stream of income for that fund, you're in big trouble when things change. And so we're much like that I you know, in the past, we've done very well, fixing and flipping, and our clients have done very well fixing and flipping, we're right now educating our clients that hey, some markets are turning like in an inflationary time, real estate's a great place to be. But it's also a great place to be for rental market. And so we're seeing a ton of opportunity for cash flowing properties. And so we're starting to add that to our to our portfolio. Grant So a couple minutes ago, you were talking about another class of investor that sort of a high growth or high high growth minded and then I think I may have entered interrupted you on that. What is it about them that you find interesting? Heather Well, the nice thing about our funds is when people make a decision to deploy capital through our funds, they can set their accounts up however they want. So what I mean by that is, they can either set their accounts up to reinvest their earnings. So earnings are paid out monthly. So we pay out all profit, which is really different than most real estate funds. Because if you're investing in a fund that's buying an apartment complex, for example, typically your returns are realized five years down the road, you get the benefit of depreciation, which is great, but you don't typically see your high yields till they sell that property. Right, right. Are our funds cash flowing? So we're lending on loans or paying off or buying properties? We're selling them. So all those earnings or profit are paid out every month? So you can either reinvest your earnings and roll them back into your equity membership, which is yeah, if you're working with self directed IRAs, that is an awesome option because you don't have these dollars going back. All right, and then they sit there and deploy until you have enough so you can reinvest for more growth minded clients, or for my guys that are looking for cash flow, you know, retired sold their practice trying to replace their income. They liked the monthly model because they're getting, you know, the earnings. Yeah. Grant So on the property, so sorry, Heather, quick question on the property itself when it's purchased, is it the fund that is on the property that owns the property? Or is it you know, allocated to the individual? Heather No, the fund owns the prop. Yep. Any loans that we originate? The fund is the lien holder. And that that's another thing is these are tangible assets. So risk is, at the end of the day, the markets go haywire, we just start liquidating assets and paying people off would be worst case. Right? Grant And that's how that's very interesting. Because, you know, I, currently, my wife and I, we invest in properties, but we do it where we're the first in other words, it's, it's, it's on us, right? So we have property managers that certainly take care of it, because we really like that, you know, cash flow kind of idea, right? And you want to be sort of passive with it, for sure. But at the end of the day, it's it's my name on it, right. And I think that's a unique thing about what you're describing there. I'm listening to a gun, though, that would distribute the risk, right, and spread it around there a little bit as as the individual investor. Heather Very cool, right. And that's what you know, a lot of people like, I have a large percentage of my clients have done real estate in the past, they've owned rentals they've owned, they've funded notes, they've fixed and flip, they, you know, developed and they're kind of at the point where they've, they've got capital now, and they don't want they want to retire. They, they want to, they want to golf, and they, they don't want to hear from a tenant that their toilets plugged in the middle of the night, you know, even though you're using a property manager at the end of the day, it's still you paying for it. That's right. That's right. You know, that's where I think there's benefit there. And then also for our clients that have smaller dollars that, you know, our husband and wife both working full time with kids, they don't have time to be rehabbing a house, this is a way that they can start to put that money to work for them. And it's shocking how quick it grows, especially your tax deferred accounts, self directed IRAs, and self directed 401. K's are like, people don't talk about it enough. It's, you know, you can do traditional, you can do Roth, if you're not working currently, for the employer that provided the 401, you can roll that over and start deploying that capital. So there's just so many other options out there that I just don't think people are aware of. Grant What's your take on potential impact to this model with, you know, interest rates slowly nicking up there from the feds and such any any concerns there? Heather We do. We talk about it. We meet multiple times a week, there's three fund managers to include myself, I think what we're already seeing, I mean, our market is a little different. It's still very hot, but we're starting to see it take longer for houses to sell. I think prices are going to stabilize. I don't know that we're going to see a I don't think we're going to see a downturn like 2008. I don't think that's going to happen. banks aren't lending at 120% of value. But at some point, I would I think homeownership is going to be affected and there's going to be a huge opportunity in the rental market. Grant I think it'd be a soft landing, right? Heather Yeah, yeah. Well, there has to be right. Yeah. You you can't have interest rates as low as they were in values increasing at the pace that they were. Grant No, it's crazy, right. Especially what the last. I think you're saying before we started chatting wasn't like you've seen it just in the market year and 40% valuation increase just in the last two years. Is that right? Heather Yep. Grant Yeah, boy, that's in the Wall Street. Yeah, that's better than this. Heather We bought a little house close to my office down here. My our younger son was going to call it there's actually a small junior college here. And three and a half years ago, we bought it for 200. And I was sweating bullets. I thought, oh my god, we're just overpaying for this house. The house next to it just sold for 450. I was like, Why didn't we buy like five of five of these? Yeah, I was thinking but you know, it's but but again, that shows you that a lot of locals in this market are selling because it's a huge opportunity, right? They'll never make as much money but now they're displaced. And that's why as a as a fund management team, we're saying hey, multifamily, small multifamily. We have several duplex projects going and for plexes because people have to have somewhere to live and at the prices that have increased here, you know, most of the locals can't afford it. And so they're going to be you know, looking for housing. So we think that that the housing market right now, is it the opportunities in rentals? Grant Yeah, that makes sense. Quick question about your clients in terms of preparing them. So given that some of these models are new to a certain group of people, what do you guys do in terms of getting people up to speed or educating them? Is that some of the things that your organization does? Heather Yeah. So the interesting thing about our company is we actually are an education company. First and foremost, we put on so it's interesting, we used to put on live events, like maybe at most for a month, usually two to three will COVID hit. And as everybody else in the education space that did live events, quickly, you're either closing down or you're pivoting saying how do we still pull this off? So what's really cool about that is we went live with all these these events, webinars, podcasts, online live events, and now we put on anywhere from three to four a week. So yeah, so and they're everything. They're from a grant, you want to buy a piece of real estate, we're going to teach you how to rehab it too. Hey, Grant, you want to be a loan broker? We'll teach you how to do that. I am mostly involved with a lot of webinars where I just did one last week, and it was all about how to buy a note how to educate people about how to buy a mortgage, or what some people call a first lien. How do you do your due diligence, what do you look for? And so we just, we really believe in helping our clients be the most educated they can to make the best decision, you know, and and so a lot of webinars, we have one tonight, we do every first Monday of the month, called our CEO, fireside. And that's all going to be focused about around the rental market. So education, just tons of online, tons of education. Grant Perfect. And where would someone go to find those webinars? Heather So they if they're want to learn more about the passive investing side of things, I would send them to our main website, which is at secured investment Corp, no plural in their secured investment Corp. There they're going to learn there's tons of webinars, different podcasts I've been on. And that's more your education about passive investing. If they are a more active real estate investor, they want to go find the deals they want to make offers, they should visit our website at Lee Arnold System of real estate. Grant Sorry. Did you say Lee Arnold? Heather System of real estate system real estate? Got it? Okay. All right. Yeah, that's awesome. Kind of two different paths, it kind of just depends on what they're really trying to accomplish. I mean, that's what I talk with my clients is like, what are you trying to accomplish? How much time do you have? And how much capital do you have to actually commit to that? And then that typically dictates what path they're going to take? Grant Is it pretty evenly split? Or do you see more people going passive? What's What do you observe? And Heather I'd say it's pretty evenly split. Honestly, you know, I think for a long time, it was heavier on the, you know, everybody, you know, you got HGTV, and they make rehabbing look like it's I've I've rehabbed and I never looked like anybody on HGTV, and my husband and I almost divorced each other. So I said, I thought we were going to be like, Chip and Joanna, like, this was a thing. I was like, Oh, it was good. Like, that was a big buyer, you know, through COVID, you know, you couldn't get into buy houses, you couldn't get the county out there. Now you're having supply chain issues, you can't get materials. So I think it has started to shift a little a lot of people have left employers through COVID. And now they've got these 401k sitting there. And they're going What am I going to do with this? So I think that's created a lot of opportunity and interest in the passive side of it. So I think it's right now it's probably 5050 5050 Grant Awesome. Okay, while Heather, you've just been incredible sharing these, these experiences that your organization's had and the value that you're bringing, I have a quick question. Are you still doing CrossFit? Heather I am I'm getting back into it. I kind of fell off the CrossFit wagon. Last year we moved we were, you know, again, developing five acres like it was going to be the big glamorous thing. So yeah, I not as much as I was but I'm getting back to it regularly. Grant That's awesome. I love your story and what it is you're doing for the market and for people changing lives and given them a livelihood to build on all the like you said all the nest eggs they've developed in a way that's got a sounds like a lot of risk taken out for the people. So that's amazing. Heather We're here To educate people and give them a pathway to create, you know, generational wealth for themselves. And we just strongly don't agree with the fact that you have to be a high net worth individual to take advantage of this. So we pride ourselves on the fact that we we have a real estate fund with people with as little as $1,000 can invest in. Yeah, people have to start somewhere, they really do.  Grant Well, and you may have a free, you may use the phrase there that I love, which is around generational wealth. And sometimes that gets in the popular culture that's not talked about much. But for people that are being intentional with what they're trying to do for their families, those kinds of strategies mean a lot. So the fact you've made it accessible to the masses, and you're helping them solve that generational wealth problem. That's that's really awesome vision that you guys have any last comments that you'd like to share? Heather No, I mean, I guess I what I would like to share is if you have any interest, or you want to become more educated about self directed IRAs, and 401, K's just for clarification, we are not an IRA custodian. I'm not a tax professional. But I know a lot about those accounts. And I would encourage anybody, if you even have a small interest in it, get a hold of me and my team, you can get a hold of me at our website at security investment corp.com. And we'd love to give you some references for you know how you can set those types of accounts up if there's one thing people take away from this this presentation is that there is opportunity for investment through tax deferred accounts. Grant Very cool. Wow, what a great, great service you guys are providing Heather, thank you for taking the time with me here today. I appreciate that. All right, everybody. Thanks for listening to another episode of Financial investing radio and until next time, go check out Secured Investment Corp. Thank you for joining Grant on Financial Investing Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback.  

Hey everybody. In this episode, I have a fascinating conversation with Heather Dreves who shares some secrets on how to get returns from your real estate without being an expert. Grant Everybody, this is Grant, Welcome to another episode of Financial Investing Radio in the house with me today is Heather Dreves of Secured Investment Corp. Now someone reached out to me and said, Hey, have you taken a look at Heather's profile. And when I reviewed it, I started to realize, hey, there's some things that she's talking about that I've been able to dip my toe in, in the real estate space. And when I saw what she was doing, I thought, oh gosh, this would be really fun for us to hear more about the unique solution that they're bringing to clients. So let me take a breath and say welcome, Heather. Heather Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Grant Very good to have you here. And you know, when we were talking before we got started, I think you probably live in one of the most beautiful places on the planet, which is awesome. So thanks for coming out of the cocoon of beauty where you guys live, talking with the rest of us. Okay, so first things first. Tell me a little bit about how your dreams and what got you going into this business area in real estate? Heather Yeah, well, I think everybody has a story, right? Like, a lot of us started with something else. And then was led down a path that was probably a better calling, per se. I went to college to be a teacher and decided I really liked my children but wasn't really interested in spending all day with everybody else's kids. That's it. Grant That's good to find out.  Heather Yeah, yeah. Well, my kids gonna test it out. They're like, You were terrible at helping us with homework. But anyway, so stayed home with our kids for a long time, we were kind of entrepreneurs and my husband was running an indoor soccer center facility. But I had a very good friend of mine that was in the private money industry. So when our youngest son was in school full time, I decided to go back out into the adult world. And he's like, you know, come to work for me. I said, I have no idea what you do I have a mortgage, is it the same thing? He's like, No, come down to my office. So long story short, 20 years ago, walked in there and just, it blew my mind. I had no idea that one, if you were a real estate investor, you could get funding outside of a bank and traditional sources. And two, I had no idea that you could invest money that way. I thought everybody went to a financial advisor, everybody, you know, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, like I just I was, my eyes were wide open. Grant I mean, that's such an uncommon knowledge just right there. Even some of our listeners will be like, wait a minute backup, say that phrase again, you can do what say that one more time. Heather So you can buy real estate, and get funding for real estate transactions outside of a bank. So you can acquire what we would call private money lending to buy real estate, a lot less restrictive than a bank, you know, they typically private lenders will look at what we call an after repair value, which banks don't do, you know, they want to know what's that property worth as it sits, and that's the most they're gonna lend on it. private lenders are much more creative. And they can look at a property and say, hey, I can see the value you're going to add, and I can see your vision. Absolutely will end on that. And so, that was mind blowing to me first. And then I started started with working with investors that said, you know, I've got money in the stock market, but I also want to invest in real estate. But here's the deal. I don't want to own the real estate. I don't want to rehab the house. I don't want to deal with a tenant and toilet but I want to reap the benefits of that. Grant So intended for more passive participation. Is that the idea? Heather Absolutely. Yep. So I'll huge majority of my clients, you know, have been active real estate investors in the past. They like real estate as an asset class. Again, they don't want to do it themselves, but they want To be the lender per se, and so there was this opportunity to match active real estate investors with people that are looking for a more passive Path to Wealth and and match the two and it benefits everybody. Right? Grant So what's the what's the typical profile of someone coming to service like this? Heather I would say on the borrower's the active investor side, you know, there there are people fixing and flipping, and they're everything from the guy that has a full time job that's doing it on the weekend to the very active clients that are for like 100 houses, really now they don't want to deal with a bank. There's too many restrictions. You know, we obviously have a very clearly defined guideline process and underwriting process, but it's much different than a thing. We're we're focusing on the asset, and then also focusing our attention on the borrower, we're making sure that they have the financial wherewithal to actually finish the deal. Can they make the payments, you know, all those things, we look at credit. But then on the on the passive side, the clients I mostly deal with there, you know, one of the niches I've really gotten involved with is high net worth dentist right now. Grant Did you say dentists? Heather Dentists. Grant Okay, I did not expect you to say dentists. Heather Well, here's the thing. They have tons of capital, right? Yeah, they have no time to manage their money invested, you know, and a lot of times their biggest asset is their business, they'll sell their practice, when they retire. Now, they have this influx of massive capital. Oh, interesting. A lot of them are very educated with real estate, but they don't have the time to do it. And so I would say that the profile for my passive people are people that have started to create some wealth for themselves, and they want to either create cash flow, so maybe they're retiring. And they don't want to tap into what they've saved, but they want to live off their earnings. Got it, or a new niche I've really I'm pretty excited about is our growth minded clients. So you know, I don't know how much you know, about a real estate fund. But for a long time, you had to be a high net worth accredited investor to even ever think of investing in these types of funds that we're talking about REITs. Yeah, well, we are similar to a REIT. But we are a privately managed real estate. Oh, interesting. Okay, got it. Well, we're privately managed, but the model is the same. It's real estate assets, throwing off profit. And that's how people make money as off their earnings. But 10 years ago, you could only open that type of fund up, if you were what's called an accredited investor. That's the only people that could invest. So you had to have a million dollars in assets over income of $200,000 a year 300. As a couple. We feel really passionate, we think everybody should have the opportunity create wealth. So four years ago, we actually have the ability to open up what's called a Regulation A fund, and anybody can invest in it. We started our minimum at $1,000. And it's open to anybody, and we pride ourselves on this, it took a long time to get approved for this spot. Grant That's fascinating. Okay, that's the first I've heard of something like that. How many organizations do that?  Heather I mean, I haven't heard of anyone, not many that are a real estate fund. Most of the time, they're a crowdfunding platform. So you're, you know, you're investing in a platform, that's an angel investor, or they, they provide business loans. There are only a few real estate funds in the United States that were approved for that. So it's pretty uncommon. Grant That is, wow, that's very interesting. Okay, that must have taken a lot of effort to get that I mean, so that's feels like that's such an untapped market too. Huge market. Heather What we cater to is we work with a lot of clients that have 401k Is that they didn't move from a previous employer have small Ira balances, you know, they funded it with six grand and, and then they never did anything with it. This is a great opportunity for those kinds of funds. You can roll those accounts over to self directed custodians. So they're still tax deferred, you're not, you're not taking a distribution on it, okay? You're just, you're just now deciding where you want to invest it instead of having a financial advisor or a money manager, and I'm not here to tell you to people to pull all their money out from their financial advisor, really, it's just a way to diversify. And it gives people the ability with small dollars to invest in real estate because a lot of people think, well, I've got to have, you know, a couple 100 grand to buy real estate, no, you don't, you could invest in a fund that's investing in real estate and you reap the benefits of it and you have zero headaches.  Grant That's, that's awesome. So let me say back to you because it sounds almost too good to be true. Okay. You're telling me that someone could take their four When k or whatever other capital they have, there's not a bar, a minimum bar, they can roll that into this investment fund investment fund is going to be making the investment decisions, as well as managing the properties. And these people then just participate that investment participate in sort of a passive, passive return is that you said? Heather Yep, yep. Grant That's really awesome.  Heather Average yields are eight to 9%. We've managed funds for 10 years. So we have a really good track record. They are very regulated by the SEC. So there is a another set of eyes overseeing it. And they're fully audited funds. Grant Okay. Okay. Then what's the risk side? Heather Well, the risk side is, you know, not any different than any other investment, right risk is the market shift values decrease, I will tell you that our funds are a little bit different than most in the sense that we focus around residential real estate, okay. And we were not what people would call a syndication where we're investing in apartment complexes, we focus our investments around single family up to four units, all in the affordable housing market space. So we do two things with the funds. So part of the fund, we lend the money out. So real estate investors that are wanting to fix and flip we'll lend them money, we take a first lien against their property. So worst case scenario, they don't pay, we foreclose on the house. And now we own a house with 30% equity in it because we don't lend more than 70% of the the other portion of the fund we buy real estate, specifically in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, and Spokane, Washington. So we invest in projects locally. We don't preach people trying to manage a rehab five states over and we don't do it either. So that's our model. Grant So are all of your properties in that area, then? Heather Yes, all the hard assets that we buy are only local, we went out is nationwide. Grant Because I've worked with I've worked with some groups that will take the approach of the look for places in the US where the volatility of the real estate market is small. The intent is to create a cash flow through sort of this renter model, if you get appreciation on the property great, but it's not about that it's more about sort of that rental cashflow. How different are you from from something like that?  Heather Well, we look at all of that. And that's another reason that we stay in the affordable housing market space. Because let's let's say that, you know, our exit is to rehab a house and flip it and the profits flow back into the fund and the market shifts. When you're in that affordable housing market space, you have a huge opportunity to cash flow that property in the event that you need to write out, you know, values decreasing. So we're much like that. And I think you'll have to be as a fund manager, you have to be nimble, you have to have multiple strategies. If you start relying on one stream of income for that fund, you're in big trouble when things change. And so we're much like that I you know, in the past, we've done very well, fixing and flipping, and our clients have done very well fixing and flipping, we're right now educating our clients that hey, some markets are turning like in an inflationary time, real estate's a great place to be. But it's also a great place to be for rental market. And so we're seeing a ton of opportunity for cash flowing properties. And so we're starting to add that to our to our portfolio. Grant So a couple minutes ago, you were talking about another class of investor that sort of a high growth or high high growth minded and then I think I may have entered interrupted you on that. What is it about them that you find interesting? Heather Well, the nice thing about our funds is when people make a decision to deploy capital through our funds, they can set their accounts up however they want. So what I mean by that is, they can either set their accounts up to reinvest their earnings. So earnings are paid out monthly. So we pay out all profit, which is really different than most real estate funds. Because if you're investing in a fund that's buying an apartment complex, for example, typically your returns are realized five years down the road, you get the benefit of depreciation, which is great, but you don't typically see your high yields till they sell that property. Right, right. Are our funds cash flowing? So we're lending on loans or paying off or buying properties? We're selling them. So all those earnings or profit are paid out every month? So you can either reinvest your earnings and roll them back into your equity membership, which is yeah, if you're working with self directed IRAs, that is an awesome option because you don't have these dollars going back. All right, and then they sit there and deploy until you have enough so you can reinvest for more growth minded clients, or for my guys that are looking for cash flow, you know, retired sold their practice trying to replace their income. They liked the monthly model because they're getting, you know, the earnings. Yeah. Grant So on the property, so sorry, Heather, quick question on the property itself when it's purchased, is it the fund that is on the property that owns the property? Or is it you know, allocated to the individual? Heather No, the fund owns the prop. Yep. Any loans that we originate? The fund is the lien holder. And that that's another thing is these are tangible assets. So risk is, at the end of the day, the markets go haywire, we just start liquidating assets and paying people off would be worst case. Right? Grant And that's how that's very interesting. Because, you know, I, currently, my wife and I, we invest in properties, but we do it where we're the first in other words, it's, it's, it's on us, right? So we have property managers that certainly take care of it, because we really like that, you know, cash flow kind of idea, right? And you want to be sort of passive with it, for sure. But at the end of the day, it's it's my name on it, right. And I think that's a unique thing about what you're describing there. I'm listening to a gun, though, that would distribute the risk, right, and spread it around there a little bit as as the individual investor. Heather Very cool, right. And that's what you know, a lot of people like, I have a large percentage of my clients have done real estate in the past, they've owned rentals they've owned, they've funded notes, they've fixed and flip, they, you know, developed and they're kind of at the point where they've, they've got capital now, and they don't want they want to retire. They, they want to, they want to golf, and they, they don't want to hear from a tenant that their toilets plugged in the middle of the night, you know, even though you're using a property manager at the end of the day, it's still you paying for it. That's right. That's right. You know, that's where I think there's benefit there. And then also for our clients that have smaller dollars that, you know, our husband and wife both working full time with kids, they don't have time to be rehabbing a house, this is a way that they can start to put that money to work for them. And it's shocking how quick it grows, especially your tax deferred accounts, self directed IRAs, and self directed 401. K's are like, people don't talk about it enough. It's, you know, you can do traditional, you can do Roth, if you're not working currently, for the employer that provided the 401, you can roll that over and start deploying that capital. So there's just so many other options out there that I just don't think people are aware of. Grant What's your take on potential impact to this model with, you know, interest rates slowly nicking up there from the feds and such any any concerns there? Heather We do. We talk about it. We meet multiple times a week, there's three fund managers to include myself, I think what we're already seeing, I mean, our market is a little different. It's still very hot, but we're starting to see it take longer for houses to sell. I think prices are going to stabilize. I don't know that we're going to see a I don't think we're going to see a downturn like 2008. I don't think that's going to happen. banks aren't lending at 120% of value. But at some point, I would I think homeownership is going to be affected and there's going to be a huge opportunity in the rental market. Grant I think it'd be a soft landing, right? Heather Yeah, yeah. Well, there has to be right. Yeah. You you can't have interest rates as low as they were in values increasing at the pace that they were. Grant No, it's crazy, right. Especially what the last. I think you're saying before we started chatting wasn't like you've seen it just in the market year and 40% valuation increase just in the last two years. Is that right? Heather Yep. Grant Yeah, boy, that's in the Wall Street. Yeah, that's better than this. Heather We bought a little house close to my office down here. My our younger son was going to call it there's actually a small junior college here. And three and a half years ago, we bought it for 200. And I was sweating bullets. I thought, oh my god, we're just overpaying for this house. The house next to it just sold for 450. I was like, Why didn't we buy like five of five of these? Yeah, I was thinking but you know, it's but but again, that shows you that a lot of locals in this market are selling because it's a huge opportunity, right? They'll never make as much money but now they're displaced. And that's why as a as a fund management team, we're saying hey, multifamily, small multifamily. We have several duplex projects going and for plexes because people have to have somewhere to live and at the prices that have increased here, you know, most of the locals can't afford it. And so they're going to be you know, looking for housing. So we think that that the housing market right now, is it the opportunities in rentals? Grant Yeah, that makes sense. Quick question about your clients in terms of preparing them. So given that some of these models are new to a certain group of people, what do you guys do in terms of getting people up to speed or educating them? Is that some of the things that your organization does? Heather Yeah. So the interesting thing about our company is we actually are an education company. First and foremost, we put on so it's interesting, we used to put on live events, like maybe at most for a month, usually two to three will COVID hit. And as everybody else in the education space that did live events, quickly, you're either closing down or you're pivoting saying how do we still pull this off? So what's really cool about that is we went live with all these these events, webinars, podcasts, online live events, and now we put on anywhere from three to four a week. So yeah, so and they're everything. They're from a grant, you want to buy a piece of real estate, we're going to teach you how to rehab it too. Hey, Grant, you want to be a loan broker? We'll teach you how to do that. I am mostly involved with a lot of webinars where I just did one last week, and it was all about how to buy a note how to educate people about how to buy a mortgage, or what some people call a first lien. How do you do your due diligence, what do you look for? And so we just, we really believe in helping our clients be the most educated they can to make the best decision, you know, and and so a lot of webinars, we have one tonight, we do every first Monday of the month, called our CEO, fireside. And that's all going to be focused about around the rental market. So education, just tons of online, tons of education. Grant Perfect. And where would someone go to find those webinars? Heather So they if they're want to learn more about the passive investing side of things, I would send them to our main website, which is at secured investment Corp, no plural in their secured investment Corp. There they're going to learn there's tons of webinars, different podcasts I've been on. And that's more your education about passive investing. If they are a more active real estate investor, they want to go find the deals they want to make offers, they should visit our website at Lee Arnold System of real estate. Grant Sorry. Did you say Lee Arnold? Heather System of real estate system real estate? Got it? Okay. All right. Yeah, that's awesome. Kind of two different paths, it kind of just depends on what they're really trying to accomplish. I mean, that's what I talk with my clients is like, what are you trying to accomplish? How much time do you have? And how much capital do you have to actually commit to that? And then that typically dictates what path they're going to take? Grant Is it pretty evenly split? Or do you see more people going passive? What's What do you observe? And Heather I'd say it's pretty evenly split. Honestly, you know, I think for a long time, it was heavier on the, you know, everybody, you know, you got HGTV, and they make rehabbing look like it's I've I've rehabbed and I never looked like anybody on HGTV, and my husband and I almost divorced each other. So I said, I thought we were going to be like, Chip and Joanna, like, this was a thing. I was like, Oh, it was good. Like, that was a big buyer, you know, through COVID, you know, you couldn't get into buy houses, you couldn't get the county out there. Now you're having supply chain issues, you can't get materials. So I think it has started to shift a little a lot of people have left employers through COVID. And now they've got these 401k sitting there. And they're going What am I going to do with this? So I think that's created a lot of opportunity and interest in the passive side of it. So I think it's right now it's probably 5050 5050 Grant Awesome. Okay, while Heather, you've just been incredible sharing these, these experiences that your organization's had and the value that you're bringing, I have a quick question. Are you still doing CrossFit? Heather I am I'm getting back into it. I kind of fell off the CrossFit wagon. Last year we moved we were, you know, again, developing five acres like it was going to be the big glamorous thing. So yeah, I not as much as I was but I'm getting back to it regularly. Grant That's awesome. I love your story and what it is you're doing for the market and for people changing lives and given them a livelihood to build on all the like you said all the nest eggs they've developed in a way that's got a sounds like a lot of risk taken out for the people. So that's amazing. Heather We're here To educate people and give them a pathway to create, you know, generational wealth for themselves. And we just strongly don't agree with the fact that you have to be a high net worth individual to take advantage of this. So we pride ourselves on the fact that we we have a real estate fund with people with as little as $1,000 can invest in. Yeah, people have to start somewhere, they really do.  Grant Well, and you may have a free, you may use the phrase there that I love, which is around generational wealth. And sometimes that gets in the popular culture that's not talked about much. But for people that are being intentional with what they're trying to do for their families, those kinds of strategies mean a lot. So the fact you've made it accessible to the masses, and you're helping them solve that generational wealth problem. That's that's really awesome vision that you guys have any last comments that you'd like to share? Heather No, I mean, I guess I what I would like to share is if you have any interest, or you want to become more educated about self directed IRAs, and 401, K's just for clarification, we are not an IRA custodian. I'm not a tax professional. But I know a lot about those accounts. And I would encourage anybody, if you even have a small interest in it, get a hold of me and my team, you can get a hold of me at our website at security investment corp.com. And we'd love to give you some references for you know how you can set those types of accounts up if there's one thing people take away from this this presentation is that there is opportunity for investment through tax deferred accounts. Grant Very cool. Wow, what a great, great service you guys are providing Heather, thank you for taking the time with me here today. I appreciate that. All right, everybody. Thanks for listening to another episode of Financial investing radio and until next time, go check out Secured Investment Corp. Thank you for joining Grant on Financial Investing Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback.  

INTRODUCTION:Heather Wylde Smith is a native of North Georgia, raised in the birthplace of NASCAR and the Moonshine Capital of the World. She jokes that she's a highly evolved Redneck/Hillbilly. Although she has a Tragedy Resume a mile long, she is living proof that our pasts only define us — if we let them. She often says: “Therapy kept me from jumping off a building. Personal Growth made me stop wanting to jump off a building.” Through relentless pursuit of health and happiness, she has overcome: •  Stage 3 Breast Cancer•  Mental/Emotional/Sexual Abuse and Trauma•  Drug Addiction•  And more! Her tremendous success with personal growth lead her to become a coach. She received her initial coaching training through Coach U in 2009.Today, she is the CEO and mad genius behind Wylde Coach LLC.  She's a Biz Coach for ambitious purpose-driven coaches, healers and service providers who want to expand into their next-level selves in order to attract dreamier clients, raise their prices & restructure their businesses for maximum impact, profit and fulfillment. She's available as a Guest Speaker/Expert and for Podcast interviews. Her blend of biz expertise, practical tips and outlandish humor make her a dynamic guest that your audience will eat up with a spoon! INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):·      Fake orgasms!!!·      Cum·      Insider look at the escorting industry ·      Warning Signs of Scandalous Sales-hoes·      Shitty employers·      The Spirit of a Hustler·      Republican bullshit·      Surviving cancer·      Surviving abuse·      What would Jesus really do? CONNECT WITH HEATHER: Website: www.HeatherWylde.comLinktree: https://linktr.ee/HeatherWyldeCoachFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/HeatherWyldeEthicalSales/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/heatherwyldecoach/Twitter: https://twitter.com/WyldeRomanceLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3pwrmANYouTube: https://bit.ly/3JrNO6c CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Choose Your Struggle Podcast & Coaching with Jay Shifmano  https://www.jayshifman.com ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?:·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon TRANSCRIPT:[00:00:00]De'Vannon: You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right. At the end of the day, my name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world. As we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your.There is nothing on the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Happy new years, Eve, Eve, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in for the final show of the year it has been a phenomenal year. And I want to thank you for your kindness and for your support for your love. And I send that all right back to you. Here's to a fantastic 2022 Today, I'm going to be talking with a Bad Bitch by the name of Heather Wylde y'all. This woman is a transformational business and life coach. [00:01:00] But before that she was a hooker, she was raped. She was a college dropout and she was a drug addict amongst several other things, which we will talk about in the show.This woman is living proof that your trauma in your past doesn't have to be what defines you today. And in this episode, we're going to talk about fake orgasms cum, your going to get an insider look at the escorting industry. We're going to talk about some bullshit ass employers and we, you know, what would Jesus really do about several things that are going on in this world?And we hit on this and a lot of other things, I hope you enjoy this episode. And I look forward to seeing you in the new year. Hi, baby. Thank you So much, Heather, for coming on the sex drugs and Jesus pod, hallelujah, tabernacle and praise. And my bitches, y'all been here up [00:02:00] in here all a bit here. The Heather, I'm looking forward to this time that we're about to spend together. We're two beautiful women from perverted backgrounds who are incredibly productive individuals trying to share some shit with society so that they can help their own assets to improve and get better or tell a bitch that they know. And we're going to talk about how you're a great coach and the, the crazy things you've been through surviving cancer and beating an addiction and being an escort coming about of that life. You know, Not to mention all the beautiful heels that you were in. We're going to talk about all the value that you have to add to society and especially entrepreneurs and people who are trying to take what they do to that next level.And you do it in a very unique way, but before we get into all of that productive, , productive shit about you, girl. I want to talk about these fake orgasms. I heard it through the great [00:03:00] vine. I heard it all the way through the great vine two and fail into five. And I, I want to know what, where did you start using fake orgasms?Where did this come from?Heather: So I don't advocate using February. People, people need to know when they're doing well and when they're not. And it's really sad when you meet somebody who thinks they're way better in bed than they because a bunch of people have faked it. Right. But you're an escort, knowing how to fake a realistic, fake orgasm is really a good skill to have. Because sometimes your agency's wound up your phone and they need you to get the fuck out of wherever you are and go see somebody else. Or sometimes you just find somebody who has got a lot of stamina and you're just fucking over it and you need them to come. So you do big orgasm to like encourage male orgasm. So yeah, so when I was [00:04:00] on Jay's podcast, that's how we met Jay Schiffman introduced us. We were, I was talking about. Funny stories from my escorting life. And one of them involved me faking orgasms. So I gave a little quick tutorial about what not to do and what to do. Do you want, you want a demonstration?De'Vannon: Yeah. And I bought, I bought a props has set today, which is one of my, this is one of my home grown cucumbers. We began our fall harvest of this is just the first round. They get much bigger than this. And actually my boyfriend and I are going to be inserting this into my assholes at night. And that's the one that's the Y here in my bedroom, where, where recording from, because I bought this in case we need some inspiration .Heather: [00:05:00] over the top. My favorite, one of my favorite quotes from this sex education book I read was learning to.By watching more is like learning to drive by watching chases. Like cartoons are fun to watch, but you don't want to learn from them way on the watch. It's not necessarily educational, so she's a little bit more understated. So it's just like,De'Vannon: Okay. Well, fortunately in the gay world, we, I mean, there's no really faking needed. It's not like we can, if there ain't nothing coming out the tip of [00:06:00] your Dick, well, then you didn't come in as dollars to it.So Heather: there's, there's no escorts that learn how to fake orgasms, because if they come too much, you know, it's harder for them to get them up, get it up on the next client. So it's something that's done. Just probably not by normal society.De'Vannon: I could feel that.  I can see where we're a male escort. We need to fake an orgasm in order to make that money. Know but you know, me, I'm such a cum whore. They burn that faith with me. If you're going to stick your Dick in me, better feel this asshole of what that good baby gravy, because that's what I'm in it for. Heather: I I'm not, I'm not comfortable, but I don'tcum calm. I have a limit, like if there's too much calm, it freaks me out. But I dated, and I actually had a couple of clients like this too, but it, but I dated a guy if calm got on him at all, he freaked out and I'm sure it's, I'm sure it's a trauma [00:07:00] thing. Tom or like yours. either one.Yeah, Nope.De'Vannon: Well, I hope that he gets healed of that In the name of Jesus. Heather: In the name of Jesus. Yeah. Like you have sex. And he was like jumping up immediately to like clean off. And like I said, it's probably a trauma response. Yeah. And you know, I ran across men that don't like blow jobs. It happens.De'Vannon: He just likes to get it right to the point. I don't blame him. You know, can't judge him for that. Not at all. So what made, explain to us exactly what sort of coach you are. You have a very cute website which all that's going to be in the show, and that was in everything like that. But in your own words, tell us what sort of coach you are and what your target market is.Heather: So I am all about helping people that are [00:08:00] mission-based coaches, healers, or service providers. Like in other words, not just in this to make a lot of money. They're actually in this because as a part of their higher purpose, they're really here to serve people to really be a change, an agent of change for positive change in the world.And the problem with those of us that are really mission-based is that you come into the online world, you pretty quickly figured that you've grouped pretty quickly figured out that you can't do it on your own. That there's, there's just too much to know to try to do it on your own. So you start investing in most of the ways that are taught about marketing and sales in the online world.Some really sleazy elements to it. I call it sociopathic sales. You know, where people are being very pushy and manipulative and the way they're selling. There's a lot of really hype-y and manipulative marketing. And my is I help people that are mission-based to learn to market and sell in a way that feels really good to them, but it, and, and that is also effective and gets their mission out there and gives them the money to lead like really interesting [00:09:00] lives. goal in life is to live in a McMansion and you know, drive a Mercedes and know, have a Louis Vuitton purse, you're probably not my client. I w I like working with the people who have kind of a quirkier and more collectic, you know, dreams of like traveling around the world to visit caves or, or, you know, living, living like luxury off grid or something like that. But yeah, it's, I'm, I'm for the people that really want to know how to sell a market in a way that don't feel like they're selling.De'Vannon: Okay. I want you to speak more to the whole selling.your soul because that's the recurring theme throughout your website ethics, integrity, and, and you, you did touch on it, but can you give me a specific example or examples of some sort of treachery that you saw? So, you know, we could be on the lookout for it.What did you see that, that makes us such a repetitive theme for [00:10:00] you? Heather: Yeah, happy to. And I'm actually writing my first book. It's going to be out in January and it's, it's about how to spot the predators and scammers online so that you can make good investments that actually grow your business. So what happened with me is that I kept investing in these big, good programs.And one of the things I didn't know was that it's a, it's a group program and they're aiming all their marketing at new entrepreneurs. People who are, are newer to the business, they might not even know their niche yet. They're probably not making sales and use testimonials and say, you know, this person went through my program and they've doubled their ROI, their return on investment in the first month.Well, what they don't tell you is that that person was actually a one-to-one. And that person already had 4,000 Facebook connections and was already making sales of 2000 plus a month. for that person who already has a somewhat established business, it's nothing for them to double their ROI. I mean, it's impressive, you know, but it's a lot easier to do that now for somebody who's brand new and they barely know their niche, or they don't know their niche [00:11:00] yet that's not going to happen.And so they're using these very, I call it toxic testimonials, these very misleading testimonials to market, to people. So that that's something that's very common. One of the most obnoxious things that I directly experienced is this course that taught you to sell with a sales script. And which, you know, that's kinda common. I don't really advocate scripts, but you know, they're not in themselves in and of themselves toxic. Well, this one, they wanted you to use it for word, for word, because it was written in NLP, which is neuro-linguistic programming. It's a form of hypnosis. So you're hypnotizing people without their permission.And then pitching to, for them to send thousands of dollars at the end of that call, I did not find that at the bowl. And when I, you know, raised as an issue, I was like, yeah, I just don't quite feel comfortable with this. I was told that it was my success mindset. I needed to go work on my success mindset, that it wasn't unethical that it was my own problem.And that's a very big thing in the coaching [00:12:00] industry is, you know, you go through somebody's program. If it doesn't work they'll tell you, it's your mindset, that's the problem. And it's like, if you showed up and you did everything they told her to do, and it didn't work, it's not a mindset issue. That's the program sucked, you know, but a lot of this, there's just, there's a lot of sleazy stuff.There's a lot of really great people that are in this for the right reasons that are doing amazing things and personal growth saved my life therapy kept me from jumping off. Personal growth made it so that I didn't want to jump off buildings anymore. So I know the power of this is my so passionate about it, and it's why I want to help the people that are in this for the right reasons to get out there and get their work, because I know the power of it. But unfortunately there's a lot of people that are just in it to get paid and there's nothing wrong with money, nothing wrong with making great money. But you don't have to be a sleazy asshole in order to do it.De'Vannon: Hey Manny, many men on a Tuesday evening. NLP is true. The newer neuro-linguistic [00:13:00] programming. Cause you know, I'm certified as a hypnotherapist, you Heather: Yeah. De'Vannon: so I studied all about that and it's true. There is a lot of the low key hypnotherapy and all kinds of all kinds of ads for everything you see in churches, out of pulpits, everywhere you go, they're trying to mind fuck you in. That's why I always preach as important to know why you believe what you believe and be sure that you know where you're coming from and that it's not something somebody else put into your head without you being aware of it because the shit can be done real slick. Give me an example, like what would be the name of like a profession or a sort of business cause healers service providers.And I know that people listening to this, they're gonna, you know, if you're speaking to them, they're gonna know that you're talking to them, but I'm just a detailed bitch. And I just want to know. Heather: No, it's good. And I actually, I need people to challenge me on this because I'm really good at helping other people do this. But when I get to my own stuff, I'm like, , which is the curse. Like most people, if they're great copy writer, they can't write copy for themselves. They're great. [00:14:00] You know, mindset coach.They can unbind fuck anybody, but they can't unwind fuck themselves. So let's see some examples of people that I've worked with. I worked with an amazing Reiki healer and spiritual coach or she worked with me rather. I worked with a, a brilliant young man that is a business coach primarily for LGBTQ plus community. I've worked with a woman who has her own HR company for she outsourced she's the outsource HR for small businesses. I've worked with a copywriter. There's some other people yeah, that's a pretty good, you know, representative, you know, my big thing is. It's not so much the type of coach or healer that they are.It's really just what's in their heart. You know, are they doing this because they just want to make $10,000 on my God in 30 days, which ain't, ain't going to happen no matter how much you see that on Facebook. Or are they in this because, you know, they've, they have something that's been laid on their heart, you [00:15:00] know?And they're, they, there's a soul contract that they're fulfilling. You know, that they're out, they're here to make a difference for people. That's the people that I work with says is that VR is that mission-based, I will say this. One of the things about me that really sets me apart from other business coaches is that so many business coaches don't know how to help you find the value and the ROI for your program, unless you're a business coach or a money coach.Right. I am brilliant at helping people turn their intangible results. Your happiness coach, you make people happy and it's like, okay, well, how do I explain the value of that? I'm really good at taking that intangible and showing you how fucking valuable it is, and actually turning it into a dollar amount that you can even, you can talk to your, your potential clients about cause one of the most common sales objections is I can't afford it.Well, if you can show somebody how much money is costing them being unhappy, it's going to make your program look like a deal. Right? So I'm really good at working with non-business coaches. Although I have coached and business coaches,[00:16:00]De'Vannon: Okay. Excellent. sounds totally kick ass. So you, you talk about on there, how now people can attract and sign their dream clients. You talk about this on your website, which is beautiful. And I've said that a thousand times, I'm sure I'll say it again. pretty in pink and it's not overly pink.Cause it's like just right in very, very Olivia Newton, John grease, Heather: Ooh. De'Vannon: to me. And so, but you're talking about damaging and karma. So, so this is speaking to the bad business practice. So, so can we take a moment because maybe some people who are doing bad business practices might not be aware of how it's actually hurting them, which you have any advice for such people who are more on the predatory side of things, but don't see it that way. Heather: Well, I think a lot of people, you know, of when I learned that in LP sprint, I didn't feel like it was right, but I had, [00:17:00] you have to have a beginner's mindset, you know, you can't go into everything thinking that, you know something right. Otherwise you're not going to learn. Right. So it's a fine line.Holding onto what you know, you know, and then being, but also being too stubborn to learn. Do you get what I'm saying? You kind of have to, you have to walk that line. Right? So with that, I tried it for a while and because it didn't feel aligned for me before, because it felt really gross to me. I didn't really make many sales.I did make a few sales, but then I was always like, did they really want to work with me? Or did I mind coming to working with me? And that didn't feel good. A lot of it is, you know, people will pay thousands of dollars to work with a mentor and that mentor will really influenced them and just be like, no, you know, this is the only way your business is going to get started.Or they'll, you see a lot of this rationalizing of, know, this person needs your program. So it's okay for you to bully them into buying them, buying from you because it's for your own, for their own good. So you see a lot of this rationalization, right? So people really like go with your gut and if it doesn't feel right to you, then it doesn't [00:18:00] feel right to you.One of the biggest things is you'll see people that are still doing this cold pitching, you know, where they'll come into the DMS on Facebook or, or Instagram, wherever. And they haven't even said hello to you, but they're like, I've got this great product or this program, but it's going to be perfect for you.And you're like, fuck you, you, you haven't even said, hello, you've known nothing about me. And you know that they're just sending out hundreds of those messages a day. A lot of times they've paid thousands of dollars to learn this technique from somebody who swears that it's the only way for them to do business.So most of the time I keep my cool about it. It depends on how they come at me. I have gotten kind of nasty with people that but yeah, I mean that it, if you do that, People there's going to be a lot of people that are going to be turned off. Another thing people will do this really underhanded that a lot of people teach you to do they say, get people on a coffee, chat, get them on a networking call.And then when you get on the call with [00:19:00] them, you try to turn it into a sales call. And it's, it's a, it's a pet peeve. People fucking hate it. And what that tells me if you're doing that is that you don't have the strength of conviction about what you do and how good you are at it and the product or the service that you're offering.Because if you did have that strength and conviction and that competence, then you would approach me and say, you know, Hey Heather, I've got this thing. I think it would be really good for you. Let's let's have a consultation about it, you know, but you're trying to sneak the call on me like that. Just reeks of desperation.De'Vannon: Oh sneaky, like. Heather: It's just, it's gross. It's just gross. You know? No, don't do it. De'Vannon: don't do it.People don't do it because it only hurt yourself. You get back what you send out and if you send out deception and everything like that, well, you know, you will have your day and that's not something that I wish upon you. You know, I've done bad shit in my day. It's come back to bite me in the [00:20:00] ass, you know Just cause it's cloaked in pretty poor for clothes.Does it make it great. So we gotta really be careful of what we into.Heather: Just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's clean. I know when I went to real estate, And I got my real estate license and the first broker I went to talk to, he was such a good salesperson. He made me high. Have you ever talked to somebody that was such a good salesperson that you already felt high after talking to them?So this guy was just like, and I got home and I was telling my boyfriend about it at the time. And I was like, ah, this and this and this. And as I was saying it, I was like, wait a minute. That's not good. But the way he put it, the way he mind fucked me with it, you know, it took it, me saying it out loud and talking to somebody else to be like, wait a minute.That's not in my best interest. And I thought about it and I was like, he's a pimp, he's a fucking pimp. I'm like, if I'm going to have a pimp, I'll stay doing what I'm doing. You know, I'm not going to go into real estate and fuck.[00:21:00]De'Vannon: Oh, my God, you know, that reminds me, this might be a little shady, but I don't care. I'm going to say this, this, this, this new business model that I've seen popping up where you will have somebody who oh my God. Say they don't actually, for instance, know how to garden or some shit like that. they'll go and find the whole bunch of people who can establish.The infrastructure around it and get clients and say, I want to hire a gardener within the person who doesn't know how to garden, who owns the business. We'll charge the customer a hundred dollars for the gardener and then pay the gardener like 10, you know, and you see this in all kinds of industries.And they're like, well, I don't have to know what I'm doing to make money. I'm just hire people who do know what they're doing. Okay. I can, I can meet you half way on that. As long as you're splitting the money, 50 50, because without them, you wouldn't have anything. And if they got, got [00:22:00]more courage and had a more entrepreneurial spirit, then they would need your ass to begin with you don't have the skill do the job.You're just pimping people out. And that's something I see a lot and I'm all like, I wouldn't do the job for $20. And then this bitch is making 80 off of me with each client now,Heather: And this is how this backfires on you. So before I got full-time into coaching, I was a limo driver there was a guy that I met, like limo driving is so much like It's hilarious. So I met this dude through a company we both worked for, he had his own little company and I would go and I would do runs for him, but he was cheap.He was so fucking cheap. And his, his clients, his really good clients, he had, he had been in another driver and it was an older gentleman and the older gentlemen fucked up all the time. Not because he was older, he just, he just fucked up all the time. Like he just didn't, you know, but he was only getting paid like $30 a ride.Right. And [00:23:00] I was making the guy pay me a little bit more and I was really good with his clients. Well, his clients. The, the guys, the guys named George, they were like, no, you can't send me George anymore. Like, we'll take Heather. If you're not available, we'll take Heather. But we're like, we're not doing it.I stopped doing a lot of rides from him because I got, I got other, you know, better sources of, of of trips. he was like, I don't understand why you, you know, come work with me. And I'm like, because you don't patient. And that's why the only person who ever sticks around for you is this one guy.But he's a fuck up. Like if you pay people better, the better people would stick around and your life would be a lot easier. But because you're trying to be cheap, your customers are constantly getting pissed off and you're having to like retrain and like run after people all the time. I'm like just fucking pay people, a decent wage, right.It's not that hard.De'Vannon: As we've seen demonstrated with the pandemic because people working and now you see these signs popping up. McDonald's $10 an hour, this place 15 an hour. Okay. [00:24:00] You could have been doing that the whole time. now people still are not wanting to go back to work. Those government benefits, you know, are being cut off or have been cut off, but people still are not returning to those old jobs because they had like a whole epiphany, a spiritual awakening and everything like that.And it's too late for the employers who have been paying their CEOs and managers. the money they've had people setting their on the ground on food stamps and stuff like that who couldn't even afford to feed their babies. But to them, managers are making six figures. used to be Multiple six figures.right. People, people don't know that I was employment counselor in Texas for the Texas workforce commission for a while, and would hire for the service industry.Shit. I mean, you could manage a fast food restaurant and make upwards of 90,000 to start it. Meanwhile, the person there was making minimum wage, the fry cook [00:25:00]Heather: Yup. De'Vannon: looked then, and that's not talking about the bonuses and everything, you know, by the time it's all said and done there, they fucking lot of money in, in the things that Americans really like to consume.Bullshit my opinion, but treating the workers so bad, like that is, is one thing that I love about the pandemic. Cause it all came out. People really their life and they told their employers to go fuck themselves. And they're not going back to that abuse, no matter how much money they're offered.Heather: and it is, it is abusive. And, you know, it's all the worst when you're like, you're struggling at home because you can't pay your bills. And, you know, for the people who are parents, you know, I think a lot. And like my, my, my, my dad got help him is, is a Trump fan. And he's like, I don't understand where, you know, I don't understand why these people just won't go to work.And I'm like, well, a lot of them, if they go back to work, then they've got to pay for childcare and you can't pay. At least, if they're sitting at home getting a government check, they're actually can do something with that money other than just give it to childcare. You [00:26:00] know, I'm like there's extenuating factors.It's not that people are lazy. It's just, they're sick of the abuse. They're sick of the bullshit. And you know, living is expensive and if you, you know, bust your ass at a minimum wage job, you still won't be able to make ends meet. Like it's ridiculous.De'Vannon: But things are changing and they're changing for the better. So. Speaking into keeping it with the spirit of working. You've had a lot of jobs. I was when I was researching you. see you worked at Wendy's. I worked at Wendy's I ate up all that shit. And McDonald's you did Walmart Kroger clothing store. I was a bartender. So you were a bartender, you're a stripper.I took some pole dancing classes. Once a limo driver comes to the heirs, your apartment leasing agent and an Uber Lyft driver, you know, very seldom do I meet somebody who's had just about as many jobs as I have had. [00:27:00] You know, I, you know, I've worked every fucking were under the sun, so I want you to speak to a, to include raising canes.Wendy's I've worked in the mall and been a model, a model for mall stores. Like company, I've been a janitor food delivery drivers, several different restaurants, a drug dealer, selling everything under the sun, a massage therapist, podcast hose off there. So I want you to speak to this, to the spirit of a hustler you know, and how that is not how that is a great attitude to have that grind and how that ties into your coaching. Heather: Okay. So I love the term hustler, the way that your high school track coach talked about it, like get out there and hustle, De'Vannon: Right. Heather: get out there, give it your, give it your all you know, do the damn thing. Right. And, and, and be, be about it. Like my favorite. I love this pimp isms. My favorite pimp ism is don't talk about it.Be about it. Don't sit around talking [00:28:00] about all the shit you're going to do and go fucking make it happen. Right. So that kind of hustle I'm with the team hustle till you drop team, you know, no hashtag no sleep and all that bullshit. I'm not with that level of hustle. Like that's, that's crazy. But the spirit of hustle to me is like, if you don't like, what's going on, fucking change it don't sit around bitching about it.Don't you know, you go change it. If you don't like this fucking. This is my rule. Like somebody can bitch to me about a job. They don't like as long as they are actively doing something to change the situation. And that's not just about jobs, it's it's anything. Right. But people that just want to bitch and bitch and bitch, like no is interesting.A friend of mine recently quit a job after two months, she thought it was going to be great. She moved to a different state for it shows me amazing. She got in there, the management was shit. It was a nightmare. And so she chose to leave after a couple of months. Well, another mutual friend of ours was like she was like, yeah, I don't, I don't understand why she changes jobs so often, [00:29:00] but this is, you know, she's somebody that she will stay in a job.She doesn't like, and there's, there's those of us that will put up with that. And there's those of us that are like, I don't care about fuck what this looks on my like on my resume, I will lie on the next resume if I have to, I'm getting the fuck on, you know, and, and that's, that's how I've always been.Like, I'm, I'm a good employee for the first, like three days. Until I start to see the holes in the policies and procedures. And I started to see how it can be done better. Not that I know of ever know everything, you know, but there's just some things that like, I don't know, it just, there's just so much stupidity as you know, and, and they won't listen, you know, there's just, most people will show up to a job just to get a paycheck and they have this ability to just kind of put their head down and they know what they're being told to do is retarded, but they keep doing it anyway because that's what they were told to do.And they just want to get their paycheck and they don't give a fuck. I don't have that switch. I can't turn that off. Like, I don't mind being told what to do as long as it makes sense, but if it's fucking stupid or if I feel like you're not treating me [00:30:00] correctly, or you're not treating my coworkers correctly or not treating the customers correctly, out, you know, what, what is that kind of, it's the spirit of why you quit your jobs and moved on to other things.De'Vannon: Yeah.because it was just, it wasn't who I really was, you know, was isn't really at the core of it. I think a lot of people stay on jobs and they, and they really killing their soul because they, it's not really their life purpose or calling these I probably was only ever truly happy when I was a military recruiter.And then when I was a recruiter for the Texas workforce commission, because those two jobs involved with mission work ministry in the sense that you're taking somebody from a less advantageous situation and putting them in a more advantageous situation, which is the heart of everything Jesus spoke about.So it wasn't a spiritual jobs specifically, but it [00:31:00] is, it did good work, benefits came to people that Heather: Yeah. De'Vannon: elevated economic status. And so. Those are the only two jobs that I ever had and maybe working in the mall because I am a fashion diva, but, you know that was like, great. But the supervision sucked ass at both of them.And I was clashing. I would've got kicked out of the military, you know, and everything like that, but, you know but yeah,you know, but that's why I, love that about the pandemic is it calls people to face it. Heather: Um, De'Vannon: not gonna move forward unless they're actually happy with what they're doing, Heather: yeah, De'Vannon: else be damned.And I commend the world for taking the bold step. Yeah. God at the push push, just out there with the pandemic, hasn't been all bad, you know, it's has been terrible, but a lot of good has come from it too. So.Heather: I, I almost, I agree. I agree. 100% and I think it was almost like a soul conspiracy because I [00:32:00] was, I was limo driving at the time and I was, you know, picking up C-suite executives that they're on the road. 40 weeks out of the gear. Like, and they, and people think business travel is a vacation. It's fucking, not people on business travel work anywhere from 12 to 16 or 18 hours a day, not including the travel, like it's fucking brutal.And they, I had several clients who were like, almost wish things would shut down just so I could get some rest. And I feel like it's like, all our souls kind of got together and they're like, okay, these assholes are not going to stop on their own. We got to do something let's manifest a pandemic.De'Vannon: Well, we did well, Heather: Well, we did. I mean, we had dolphins and Dennis, I mean, how brilliant are we? You know, like,De'Vannon: our dolphins around. Heather: so yeah, the Venice canals were, were sewers. And I think they still are to some degree sewers and people like the, the decrease in pollution and the decrease in, in what was probably for them, not so much [00:33:00] pollution as decrease in traffic in the canals. They actually saw dolphins in the Venice canal.Never, I don't, I don't know. At another time in history ever been reported.De'Vannon: Yeah. I heard the in Venice is dis ungodly.Heather: Yeah. I want to go before it completely sinks, you know, just because it's the greatest cortisones, the greatest, like most sought after prostitutes in the world came from Venice and like 14th, 15th century. So I got to make a pilgrimage there at one point, but yeah, it stinks. That's, that's what I hear those things.De'Vannon: So I don't on your website, you have a few mission statements that are really cool. And one of them talks about how you're not, you're saying that you're not out to force change in the world. You're saying that you're here to, it says that you're here to invite people, to see that they have options to create the lives.They want to lead that they are not chained to the status quo. When I read that, [00:34:00] it reminded me of Jesus. It did. And David I'll totally take that.because he said. That if he said referring to himself, that if I be lifted up, I will draw all men onto me, which is not a statement of force. What he w he was telling people who were going to follow him is to simply talk him up and then he will do the rest.And so my ministry, and the way that.I approached the world is the same way. I'm not trying to force anybody to believe one way or the other, but I am provoking spiritual conversation, least we abandoned a very important part of ourselves. And I don't give a damn if somebody wants to go be a Buddhist, I love hanging out with them.Other ball, people who love vegetarian food. Great. Oh, if they wanted to be a towel is or whatever, it's just about having some sort of conscious, conscious spirituality about you, whatever that may be. And but it's not forced, you know, I like to throw [00:35:00] information shows out there, write my blogs, write my books if it's for you, it's for you.It's not as not, I don't care if you suck Satan's Dick, we can still go have my Moses on Sunday. That's great. You know, at least you have a fucking perspective, you know, spiritually. And and, and I, and I thought that that statement was so humble of you. And then I think about like Republicans, know, making say like laws in Texas try to force the women to live the way they think that they should. And And I want you to talk about this because you, you have a statement on your website that you want shaved like half of your head off because your parents were trying to force you to go to church. And so I want you to talk about why you did that, what happened and tie that into everything I just said about how Jesus was not forceful how, when people try to become forceful, they're actually stepping out of the will of Christ. [00:36:00]Heather: Okay. So I don't know if I can hit on everything. I, I love it. One of the things that people don't realize about Jesus is that he was not trying to start a new religion. Not really. He didn't look from Christian came about later. He was trying to my words are failing me today. Re re re repurpose the Jewish faith.Right. And I think very much was about this is a term that they talk about a lot in recovery is attraction rather than promotion. Right. And that had, you know, when you try to show your views in somebody's face, you're going, all they're going to do is dig their heels in. Right. So this is why. When I, when I had cancer, I didn't say I was fighting cancer, but people would say, oh, you know, you're fighting cancer.You're going to win. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, anything fight fights back. I am politely asking cancer to leave my body. That was my perspective. Right. And you know, you think about it, like what is more likely to get [00:37:00] you curious about another way of life or another perspective, seeing somebody else living from that perspective or that different way of life, somebody coming to you and telling you you're wrong for doing it the way you're doing it, and you should be doing it their way.It doesn't work. Right. And that's part of the problem. Our culture today is everybody is so fucking polarized. And I'm just like, if we could get the people on the far ends of the extremes of both quote unquote sides, and I'm like, there are no fucking sides, we're fucking Americans, right? if we get the people screaming loudest on both sides to shut the fuck up, the rest of us could figure it out.the people on the they had no interest in finding a solution. They want more book deals. They want more people on their YouTube channel. These people have a vested interest in keeping the chaos and the bullshit going because it's, it's lining their pockets. And I think half the times they don't even believe what they're saying, but they just know that if, Hey, if I say this, I'm going to get more hits on my Facebook page or on my YouTube or, [00:38:00] you know, whatever. So as far as my personal experience, so I grew up in a very small. Rural Georgia town. it's, it's not that way anymore, but you know, 40 years ago, back in the late seventies, early eighties, it definitely was. And I would go to church and I was always just very aware. And when they preached hellfire and brimstone constantly, I was like, I don't know what I did that.I guess I'm going to hell. You know, I was like, I'm not like, what could I possibly have done? But this, this very learned, man, supposedly is assuring me that I'm going to hell. And that I'm a worthless center. And I was like, oh,and so I didn't enjoy it very much. And I, and I tried very hard. When I was 12 or 13, I tried very hard to become a good Christian and I'm a cheerleader. And with the whole thing I had to hire higher the hair closer to God, like clog going on with my hair and everything. And I was. [00:39:00] And after that, I was like, fuck it.I was like, I'm just gonna, you know, be who I am. And I actually started reading about paganism, which actually honors females and, and the small town that I was in. Not only was it hellfire and brimstone, but it was like, you're a sinner. You're always going to be a sinner. You're nothing but a center in the eyes of God.If you're a woman that goes double, if you're gay, you need to die. That was basically the order of it's like, you're all shit. But if you're these part of these groups, you're super shit. So I was like super, super shit because I was a female and I was bisexual. And I hated it, you know? And so I would sleep late.I would do all these things to try to avoid church. And my parents wanted me to go to church. That's what you do. And I really wanted to shave my head. I really liked that it was a skater cut, you know, and I just thought it looked really cool to have like partial part of your haircut. And so I wanted to do it anyway, but I had asked my parents like a good kid, if I could do it.And they're like, no, but I knew that if I did it, they wouldn't make me go to church because they would be ashamed of me. And [00:40:00] so when, you know, but I wasn't being that defiant yet. But the final straw was we went to this, one of the more Backwoods, small churches in the area and probably like one step above snake handlers.And the preacher actually had the audacity to say that women had no place in church. And in my mind I was like, fuck it. I don't want to be here anyway. Like, I don't have a problem with Jesus. Jesus is amazing. But the Jesus saved me from your fucking followers, like so many of them. Right. And so I shaved my head and my parents sure enough were embarrassed and they did not make me go to church.So when for Heather.De'Vannon: You know what it is, what it is. You gotta do what you gotta do. Heather: Yeah.Yeah. De'Vannon: another one of your, I'll say mantras is the UL. You want to show folks, but checkered past you know, it was possible to recover. And you know, to, to basically [00:41:00] thrive after you've been broken down. So we won't get deep into your history here. Drug addiction. You mentioned cancer before on your site talks about mental, emotional sex abuse trauma. So this is the part of the show where we want to get into all of the darkness that has plagued you go. Heather: So bare yourself, just, you know, no, no. no. I'm happy to do it. I'm happy. It's, it's one of my, it's one of my gifts that I'm very comfortable, you know, talking about stuff. So from a very young age, I knew that I didn't belong where I was. I was, I was very confused. The, you know, my parents and my families and my town's beliefs did not mesh with mine. If you if anybody cares to remember in the, sometime in the eighties, I forget exactly when there were two, two marches, two civil rights marches on my town because there was red lining going on. They would [00:42:00] show African-American families, houses in the area and act as if they would sell them that the banks would always turn down the loans.And so my town was all white and you know, my family would tell you they're not racist. They're certainly not like cross burners, but they were still racist. They might've made no fucking sense to me. I mean, very, very young, like eight years old. This is stupid. This makes no sense. So, you know, stuff like that.And at a very young age, I knew actually, I didn't think it was anything wrong with being gay. It was when I was nine. mom was having a conversation with my sister. I have no idea why, but she was like, you know, if a girl starts telling you that you're pretty, or, you know, trying to like touch you, she's jumped.And if you said it out loud, like one would just spring up from the floor.And so, you know, that put me in the closet and again, you know, going to these churches, like nothing made sense. I was like this, like, I know I could tell, like there was some good stuff in [00:43:00] the Bible, but there was also a lot of fucking nonsense. And I was like, no, no, you know, I, I just, I didn't have this sense of belonging. I had a lot of depression and a lot of anxiety. When I was six or seven, an older neighbor molested me. He was only. 12, you know, so he wasn't an adult, but that age gap, that, that developmental gap, it, it qualifies as molestation. And that was, that was very confusing. Because I had gone through the good touch, bad touch program at school. my mother was a teacher, so I went in and I told her you're supposed to tell a trusted adult. And she said, that's normal and just turned around didn't do anything to stop it. So that fucked me up. Pretty good. Let's see. Yeah, so just it, you know, so many people that I dated were what I now realize were, were narcissists. And just very emotionally manipulative just had no self-esteem. [00:44:00] And the only thing that I, where I derived my self-esteem was my grades and my academic accomplishments and my school's accomplishments, you know, I was a soccer player. I was I was in drama. I was a co editor of the yearbook, you know, that kind of stuff.And then also from letting people just dump their problems on me, you know, I was, I was a good listener. Right. And these people, this is where I get my thing about people. Can't talk to me about something that they're not actively trying to change because I would just let people go on and on for hours.And they would be like, oh, Heather, you're such a good friend. I don't know what I would do without, you know, it gives such great advice and then they would not take any of it or they'd be have you ever heard the term askhole? De'Vannon: Yeah. Heather: doesn't ask. All right. They ask all the time, but they don't really do anything.So there was a lot of that. So I took on a lot of people's problems and you know, I'm, I'm empathic as well. So I was really just storing all this really, really negative. And my home life was like subtly fucked up. Like it wasn't [00:45:00] like screaming and yelling and like fighting and like drama and cops and all that stuff, you know, and, and all, all to say it could have been worse. But there was just a tension in the house. Like my parents didn't really get along. And so I got out, I'm like, well, this is one of the reasons why I was so focused on my academics is because I knew that come hell or high water. If I got a scholarship, I could get the fuck out of this town. And I really lived in here that like any second people were going to find out really who I was and how much I didn't belong.And I was going to be stoned to death. And that was awful, you know, so I pushed myself, I graduated second in my class. I got full scholarships. Got out. Thank you. got out, went to school and I thought once I got out, everything was going to be okay. But what happens a lot of times when. Working so hard to let get away from something.When you finally get away from it, you get a small reprieve, but then it's like, your psyche is like, oh, it's safe now to process all this crap that you push down and you're run over with it. [00:46:00] Right. So I entered into therapy. Well I started doing psychedelics. Psychedelics are amazing things. But not when you're depressed and you're already like off balanced and everything and it put me off more off balance. I think the depression and the kind of breakdown were coming anyway. But I got into therapy and I was in therapy for about three months when I just, I woke up one morning. I couldn't stop thinking about killing myself. And I was like, I was going to be alone that weekend in my dorm because my was going home to see your boyfriend or something.And I kept having this thing about, like, I was going to hang myself from our loft bed, which I don't even know if that's possible, but that's what kept going through my head. And it scared the shit out of me. I ended up going to a local mental hospital and checking myself in and you know, did they do the intake and everything?And they're like, yeah, you should stay here. And I was like, fuck. The funny thing with that though it was a Friday night, so I had to stay on suicide ward all weekend before they can really evaluate me on Monday [00:47:00] morning and I was pissed and I was like, look, if I wanted to kill myself, I would have stayed at home and done it for free.Give me my fucking belt. I wanted to kill myself. I would have done it at home. The other really funny thing, or kind of fucked up thing it was movie night. Like Friday night was movie night and they're like, yeah, we know we're going to watch a movie in a little while. We're going to watch Thelma and Louise.And I was like so I go to the office and I was like, you know, they kill themselves at the end. Right.It was suicide ward. I was like so that, you know, that got me into, I got me on psych meds, which I hated, but I took and you know, continued in therapy and therapy again, it kept me from jumping off a building was a good like release. It was a safe place for me to talk, but there wasn't enough challenging me to actually change and do something about it. And then from there, [00:48:00] after my second year of college, my family went fucking crazy. Like went like Jerry Springer, fucking crazy. And I don't even want to get, it was so bad. I don't even want to give any examples. Like it was just fucking nuts. And, you know, I had always been curious about sex work, but I was like, I come from a good family.I come from a good family. I can't go do that. I'm smart. I can't go do that. And my family went just really fucking crazy, I was like, you know what, I really don't. I didn't do it to hurt them, but I was like, I don't really care what they think anymore. I'm going to go have this adventure. that's when I got into sex work. comments, questions, concerns point?De'Vannon: No, not at all. Everything is isn't going wonderfully. I'm waiting for you to get to the drugs, man. Heather: Oh, the drugs man. Okay. So so, you know, because I was already doing psychedelics like once a month I moved out to Hawaii briefly. I had married a friend of [00:49:00] mine from high school. He was in the military and he couldn't live off base. Who's gay. He couldn't live off base unless he advanced to ranks or got married.And so we got married and it meant that when all this crisis was going on, I got to move to Waikiki. And so while I was there, I. Yeah, I did ecstasy for the first time. All that was there, did asset a couple of times you know, which is fun and amazing, you know, but I wasn't, it wasn't fucking up my life at this point. When I came back to Atlanta and sort of escorting again, I got around people who were, you know, daily pot smokers, all day pot smokers. I was just smoking a little bit at the end of each night. And then I got around some people, the roll blunts. And once I learned how to roll blunts, it was on and crack.And so within two years of, within three years of starting to do drugs, I had like an ounce a week pot habit. Like I was smoking like seven blocks a day and I could, I could smoke an entire block by myself and turn around and have a conversation with you. And you wouldn't even know I was high. Like I was like that kind of fucking druggie.[00:50:00]And, you know, with escorting. You know, they were frequently drunk. You love, I love to get Coke heads, like, well, it, within a certain range, like people that hadn't gone too far, so we'll not be in by too far. Is the people who are like picking through the carpets. Well, once they're out of Coke, it's time to go.That's just the thing, like they're picking their carpets. It's fucking time to go. But the people that they've got plenty of blow and they just keep checking the windows and they'll come back to the bed and they'll be like, I gotta go close the door and they go close the door. And then after two and they come back to the bed and like two minutes later, they're like, I got to open the door.Like that shit is fucking them. Not just people that are just like partying. It's like babysitting and you can be with them for hours and make shit tons of money. So like, those were great. I was allergic to Coke if I, if I did it, it shut down my nostrils for like a month and it didn't matter, the cut, whatever.Like there's something in it I'm genuinely allergic to. And so I would put it on my gums and stuff, but like, I wasn't, I never got [00:51:00] addicted to it because of that. You know, smoking a lot of weed, I could never find acid, which is like my favorite thing ever. So I started doing a lot of ecstasy and that's what I ultimately bottomed out on was ecstasy marijuana.And the only person I know who hit bottom on hippie drugs. And I wound up in AA for that. And that really pissed me off. I was last person. That was the last place I wanted to be, but actually turned out to be one of the best things that ever happened to me. But one of my funniest drug stories actually happened after I was after I was sober.So I went to see this client. And this is one of the things, first things that me and De'Vannon of bonded over because the name of his podcast, as you know, is sex, drugs and Jesus. So I went to see this guy and he was smoking crack and I was sober at the time. But you know, you can't, you can't get away from crack fumes.So I had like a second PM, like crack high basically, but this guy [00:52:00] was like, he was sitting in a bed and he was watching, we're watching like hardcore porn and a lot of men on, on Coke. Can't no I'm in on Coke. Can't get it up. So they can't, they can't have sex. So he was jerking off for having me jerk him off.You know, I'm just like sitting there with my loo, just, you know, going and I'm watching this hardcore porn and he's jerking off and he's witnessing to me about. Like he's telling the story and I could never really quite get the gist of it because he was very high, but he was telling this story about, I think, picking up a hitchhiker and witnessing to him about Jesus.But he's telling the story, like, while he's jerking off the hardcore porn with a hooker, I was like, this is fucking weird. But the thing I didn't tell you about yet De'Vannon was that while I'm sitting there and I mean, I was with this guy for probably three, four hours. And you know, I mean, he was like a middle-class white guy, you know, he wasn't like the stereotype of what you think [00:53:00] about, you know, crack smoker.But nonetheless, he was quite high, definitely smoking some crack. And but yeah, we're sitting there and we're sitting there and I'm, you know, I'm kind of bored, but I'm making good money and whatever. And but throughout my life, I have had what I describe as thoughts that are so loud that they, that I know they're not mine.It's like a thought comes to me. Okay. Well, that wasn't me, you know? And it's, it's God, it's God talking to me. I'm not a prophet. I'm not claiming anything like, crazy like that, but I've just, I've had instances where I'm just like, oh, okay. So I'm sitting there, this guy's, you know, doing his thing and I get this thought and it was.Tell him tell this man that you love him. And I was like, no, absolutely not. I don't know this person. Like there were people that I saw enough that I did actually form emotional attachments to them. I saw them for a long time and I saw them know over the course of years and, and we really hit it off, but this was the first time I'd ever met this person.And I was like, no, I'm [00:54:00] not doing that. And he would not leave me alone. It just kept pestering me and pestering me and pestering me until finally I was like, how do I do this? And not come across as a crazy person or get this? Cause it's gotta be a fucking stalker or something. And finally, I like got up on my, like on my, on my knees, on the bed.I was like kneeling beside him. And I like put my hands on his shoulders and I looked at it and I said, as one child to have a God to another, I want you to know that I love you. And I, it really touched something in him. And you're talking about how your job. As a recruiter wasn't ministry, but it was, there were times that I was definitely used by God to deliver a message as an escort.So there were times that that had a spiritual significance and that was, that was one of them. Six drugs and Jesus, baby.De'Vannon: There's no reason for us to, to try to play God in a box. Or a cube or rhombus or trapezoid or triangle or any fucking [00:55:00] shape that we can come up with because he simply just will not Heather: Hm. there's okay. Don can walk right into a crack house. He can talk to us when we're high it's happened to me and stuff like that before some people feel like you're drunk or high, or you're in certain places that are darker than the forest, that God is not there, but God's actually everywhere.Everywhere. De'Vannon: the Bible says, he's as near to us as the air we breathe on and there's air Everywhere.Heather: W. De'Vannon: you got conservative folks out there who want to say, he's only going to be here because he can only do this. I don't get do that, that's just their opinion. And they're going to try to sell it to you as fact and law and the only way, but that's That's just one way of looking at things. Heather: Well, it's crazy. You know, I had an aunt that she went Pentecostal and I love Pentecostal churches, the, the feeling in them, you know, but I just can't do get down with like, you know, a lot of the message, but she stopped hanging out with the family because we were [00:56:00] sinners and I'm like, Jesus hung out with sinners.this has no biblical basis.De'Vannon: But that's the way Pentecostals are. I grew up Pentecostal. I agree with you. I love the way it's failed, but I don't get down with the message because the message is very like church. People are better than everyone else, because I used to sit there thinking, God, how did I end up so lucky to be here? And the whole world is going to burn in hell, but just not the Pentecostal people like that.That is exactly what they believe with how they think, and everything is a problem and it's wrong. And you know, it's, it's very. You know, the grounded in a lot of insecurity because people could really make themselves feel great about themselves, the way they step on other people in Pentecostal churches.And I wanted to touch on something that you were saying about the sort of person who was smoking this here, crack, because it was as if, yeah, I've smoked crack in my day too. Heather: smoked crack crack [00:57:00] rocks.De'Vannon: It literally crack rocks. and, and this is something that I really like to talk about a lot is because crack heads and the drug use in general is not like it's done, like on documentaries are like saying Dave Chappelle and his whole Tyrone begins, know, not every crack head is homeless with white powdery lips and a beanie.And all of that. I used to sell crack to white men who lived in huge and. Houses. This is one house we went to closet was so big that me, the four dope boys who came with me and all of us could set in there with plenty of space to smoke the crack off of a mirror and everything like that. And this dude, I was lived in a damn good neighborhood in Houston, Texas, and it was not what you would think he Heather: Right. De'Vannon: teeth, know, and all of that and everything like that.And it's not. It's like governor Chris Christie. He likes, he likes cracking prostitutes. That's when he [00:58:00] was in the news for, you know, he's overweight and fat and white in a governor and he wants him some crack bitch. Heather: Yeah. Hi, I you know, Paul politicians I didn't did I say, I don't remember if I saw a politicians. I, it probably just didn't stick cause I don't give a fuck. Like high powered jobs, you know, lawyers, lawyers, love Coke, love Coke, love, crack doctors, love, Coke, love, crack you know, CEOs, you know that there's, there's, there's kind of a profile that goes with, you know, jobs and the type of drugs that people are more commonly going to do in them.And a high power bite, man. Love, love some fucking blow. They do. I can, I can confirm that.De'Vannon: I know I can sell so much cocaine and upscale bars and stuff, you know, they'd call me, I'd pull up with like an eight ball go in there. It's just a group of probably Caucasian people partying it up in VIP. That shit sold so [00:59:00] fast. know, they can Heather: Yeah. De'Vannon: it. It's a quick high, you got to keep more to say getting high.It's a smart bet. You know, you're going to be a drug dealer, Heather: Well the problem being like the, the penalties were, are so high. It was one of the reasons why I love selling pussy because it was missing. You know, I, I can, you know, I, it, that you've got it. You sell it, you still got it. You have to re up.De'Vannon: Well, you can go to Oregon now, know, and you know, you don't, the penalties are less severe, you know, there's no more going to jail for simple possession. there is for like dealers, but Heather: Yeah. De'Vannon: general attitude in the state of Oregon is like lenient towards the drugs in general. Heather: Well, because the thing is like the war on drugs, again, we're back to this. What you fight fights back. The war on drugs does not work. You know decriminalization has been shown in, in other places to be much better for all consensual crimes, you know, D decrim [01:00:00] criminalizing, it doesn't help anything. It just makes it worse and just drives it underground.Like these are basic human desires, and they're not going anywhere. They're just going to be subverted where it's going to be a lot more dangerous for everybody involved.De'Vannon: It makes it taboo and people love danger. People love what they can't have. Heather: That, that too, I've actually read studies where they said that kids were less likely to go get high in places that there wasn't a stigma around it. It was like, oh, I can just go to the store and buy weed. But it's like, okay, we've got to call my cousin and he's got a call his best friend's girlfriend so that we can find, you know, this dude that she knows, you know, and then we get there and we can't just buy the weed.We gotta go find him. A pair of JordansDe'Vannon: It's a whole thing, Heather: becomes like an adventure. Right. It was like all implicated, you know, but if we, if you could just, you know, walk into a store and be like, give me an eight, you know, like that's not very exciting, whatever.[01:01:00]De'Vannon: One of the drugs, one of the meth suppliers that I used to give my meth from that he would, he would say that was, that was probably the main reason why he stayed supplying crystal meth in Houston was because of the, the thrill of almost getting caught. So tells me if you make it illegal, Hey, everyone can just sell whatever.the fuck they want.He probably shut it down because there's no more thrilled with the chase. There's no more Tom and Jerry, more Wiley coyote in the road runner and there's. Heather: My shit I do. I miss. I that's one of the things I missed about escorting was that j

INTRODUCTION:Heather Hutchison is the Amazon best-selling author of Holding On by Letting Go: A Memoir, and an award-winning singer/songwriter with three albums released to date. Blind since birth and having struggled with mental illness from a young age, she is passionate about educating people on disability and mental health through her music and writing. Heather is a frequent guest on national television and radio programs and renowned podcasts across the globe to share her message of hope to those who are struggling. In her advocacy work, she has appeared alongside numerous high-profile psychologists, clinical counsellors and other mental health professionals.An avid traveler, she has spent time living and teaching English in Latin America. Heather lives on the west coast of Canada with her partner Jordan and their cat Maya. When she isn't writing, playing music or traveling, she can usually be found at the beach, or curled up with a good book and a chai latte.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):·      Living Life With Blindness and Mental Health Struggles·      Misconceptions About Blind People·      How People Can Teach Us To Dislike Ourselves·      Wrestling With Suicidal Thinking ·      Life Inside Of Psychiatric Wards·      A Lesson On Spiritual Understanding·      The Healing Found In Music & Writing ·      Why Blood Is NOT Thicker Than Water·      Getting Over Addiction To Family CONNECT WITH HEATHER: Website, Books & Music: https://www.heather-hutchison.com/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/HHutchisonMusicFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/heatherhutchisonmusicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/heatherhutchisonmusic/Twitter: https://twitter.com/hlhutchison DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEso   TRANSCRIPT:[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to. And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right. At the end of the day, my name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world. As we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello hello. Hello, everyone. And happy friends giving. Thank you so much for joining us today on the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. Today, I am super excited to be talking to Heather Hutchison, who is a bestselling author, and also she has cut three albums and she's also a legally blind. She is the first illegally blind person.Had on my show and I'm excited to talk about how she [00:01:00] lives her life to the fullest and is not letting anything hold her back. In this episode, we talk about what it's like living with blindness and mental health struggles. We talk about some misconceptions about blind people, what it's like to be inside of a psych ward.And, um, we get into the healing found in music and. We talk a lot about why, why it might be a good idea for people to get over this addiction to family. And a lot of people seem to have so help you enjoy the episode. And I hope you enjoy the time with your true family on today's. Heather, thank you so very much for stepping onto the sex drugs and Jesus podcast today, it is such a blessing and such a wonder to have you today. Heather: Thank you so much for having me. De'Vannon: Oh, of course. My dear sweets, of course. So we [00:02:00] are going to be talking a lot today about your beautiful book that you wrote.It's a memoir it's called a holding on by letting go. When I, when I hear that title, it reminds me of how in the star wars theories Yoda was telling aniguns ignorant, stupid fucking ass to He said, you have to, you, you must learn to let go of that, which you fear to lose. And he, and he was cause he was heart aching over, over pad may and everything like that, fucked up the whole galaxy for 20 years Heather: Yeah. That's all right. I thought about that before now. Every time I think of that title, I'm going to think of star wars. De'Vannon: totally, Yoda right there. And I know usually I would start my show and you know, getting my guests to give us a little blurb about who they are and background and stuff like that. But this time I'm going to do it differently because I really, really love the [00:03:00] way the prologue for your book was written.And so I'm going to read your prologue because I thought, I think it was, I I've just never heard of book B, so it's, it's a short prologue, but I felt like the content was. and fresh. And I, and I just really think it sums up a lot of the matter. So I'm going to read your background for you through this prologue.Let we take a moment. So her book opens like this y'all it says, I don't know. When I first realized my life was optional, something I could hold in my own two hands and take away. When I saw fit, as I lie awake in a dark and hospital room, I scan back through the years, searching for answers and reasons. I may never fully understand.Maybe it was exposure to mental illness and suicide at an early age. Maybe it was when the problems at home started or an inability, both to learn and innate to [00:04:00] cope with stressful situations. Maybe it was because the school bullies told me I should kill myself. Or perhaps it was growing up faced with frequent discrimination caused by being born blind.Realistically, it was probably a perfect storm of circumstances that came together with disasters, timing to lead me to this hospital bed. And so I'm going to give you the Nancy Pelosi clapon that line. And with that, I will hush and let, let you tell us anything you would like to personally about yourself,Heather: Yeah. So as you said in the prologue kind of does sum it up. So I'm also a singer song writer. I have three albums out so far and I just released this new memoir. De'Vannon: I think memoirs are fucking awesome.  I have mine coming out whenever we finally get it done. No those bitches [00:05:00] that they long time to write Heather: Right. And the writing's like the first dress, the easy part. And then you got to go back through and De'Vannon: If it's been about, it'll be a year about a two year process before it's all said and done with mine. a friend of mine, a good friend of mine, Theresa Hissong, an author, and she's written countless books. She told me when the process started, she was like these much easier to write fiction than, than a memoir.So he was like, this is going to take a while. And she was telling the whole truth. So I commend you on getting yours done and out there for the world to see. Now you have a lot of unique things. You know, you, you were a woman who was living. You know, disabilities, you know, as well as mental health struggles.So I appreciate your candidness, your willingness to, to tell the truth, but you know, so many people want to act like they got it together. They want to act like they don't have problems. They want to kind of skirt the issue. [00:06:00] Or if they do say they're struggling with something, they're very timid about it, they don't really get into the gory details, but you know, the healing comes when we're transparent just by somebody hearing that somebody is going through the same thing that they're going through can encourage somebody to take another step rather than stopping and giving up right where they're at.Heather: I totally agree. De'Vannon: Even without giving advice, just, just by saying, yes, I have this same problem that you do is enough for somebody to catch a second wind. And so go ahead.Heather: no, it's so true. Like, and I think that's why I wanted to write this book because I feel like there's not a lot of info out there really like people, they more want to talk about their recovery, which is great. That should be the end goal. But I remember like when I was going through it, I would read, you know, these posts from influencers or whatever, talking about How they had a really tough [00:07:00] time, but they're better now.And it's like, well, what did, what did that journey even look like? Nobody really wants to talk about the journey.De'Vannon: How do we, how did we get there? And so I want to talk about a story, the opening story in your book, which I found to be incredibly captivating and it's PivotTable and it represents so much of us a thing from this story was about how people around us teach us to judge. You were talking about how you were, I believe on a family vacation.You didn't, you really, hadn't not at this point, looked at yourself like somebody who had a problem, you met a kid on a playground, you were just the best of friends you're running around and everything. And and then he, and then he asked you I'll make maybe like why you weren't looking at something and then it kind of goes from there.Do you want to tell us this story and what you, your experience there?Heather: Yeah. So like you said before, then I never really considered that society viewed [00:08:00]me as different because you know, you're, you're kind of, sort of absorbed as a kid and you're in your own little world and, you know, I would hang out with my brother and cousins and everything and just do whatever they didn't.Nobody really said I couldn't. So then. This family vacation. I was on the playground. Like you said, with this kid who asked me why I never looked at anything. And I told him super matter of faculty I'm blind. Like, cause it never really crossed my mind at that point that it was anything more than like, oh, I have brown hair and blue eyes.And his reaction was so immediate and so stunning. So he actually turned around, I was standing at the top of the side, he turned around and he pushed me backwards. So I fell and he yelled something over his shoulder about me being blind and then got on his bike and left. And we had been hanging out like great friends before that.So it was just this like sudden shift. And I remember laying there kind of going, [00:09:00] wow, like I am different and this is forever. It will never go away. De'Vannon: Well, fuck him.Heather: Yeah. And she's out there and I'm fucking. De'Vannon: You know who you are, you know what you did,Heather: He probably doesn't remember. He is probably an asshole to everyone, but he got it from somewhere De'Vannon: right? So he, you know, and there's something in us that can really recoil at things that are different, you know, people that are different, we don't understand, you know, but when that happens, we have a choice, you know, when that, you know, we don't have to cater to every emotion that rises up in us. So in that moment, whatever made him uncomfortable about you, you know, he could have in, anybody can do this, that he could have said, okay, wow, this makes me feel uncomfortable.Gee, I wonder why, you know, and then he could have maybe asked you, what is that [00:10:00]experience? Like, what can I do to help you today? Is there anything you need? opposed to pushing you as they're screaming, insults and running away, Heather: Yeah. Yeah. De'Vannon: he got, he sounds like a Republican.Heather: Yeah. That's a good point. It'd be interesting to know his political views this point. De'Vannon: Yeah. You probably hanging out with someone who's a Republican Senator now.  But you know, that, that's what happens, you know, like in the, in the, you know, the gay community and stuff too, people are different, you know? So then we get rejected. Not because we've done anything, but just because people have an emotion that arises within them and they don't know what to do with it or how to process it.So then it comes out as well. Then we just want to get away from you. Heather: yes, absolutely. De'Vannon: And so. There's not much we can do about people like that. And I feel like that your [00:11:00] audience is similar to mine. It's like, you know, who is out there? Can we help? Who has been hurt as opposed to going after the, you know, like the asshole kid or the asshole Republican, you know, we, you know, we can't, we can't really touch them too much,Heather: Yeah, you're not going to change their mind if they don't want to learn, they don't want to learn. De'Vannon: but I think it's beautiful to be different though, Heather, you know what the fuck is normal any damn way. Heather: True. De'Vannon: So, but explained to me like, so in case somebody out there is wondering, okay, so if you're blind, how are you able to run around and, you know, do stuff, you know, all day with him on the playground.Anyway, if you can't see. So is it like a partial blindness? Like explain to me how you're able to.Heather: Yeah. So it is partial. A lot of people don't realize that blindness is kind of on a spectrum. They think all or nothing, but so I can see [00:12:00] better in low light, like in, at dusk, kind of. And I can see sharp, like stark contrast between light and dark, things like that. I might be able to see that a person's standing there, but I would never be able to recognize them.But I think when you're a kid you're so resilient that it doesn't even really matter. If you can't see anything, you just kind of run and fall and whatever happens happens. So you don't really think about it a ton. I think when you're really little De'Vannon: Right. And that's what, and I'm glad you explained that because you know, blindness is on a spectrum, you know, I think about what is it, is it, is it lady, lady Gaga, his grandmother? I think it was, I may have read a story. Like she has a sort of blind that's like that and And so a lot of the scaffold clad outfits, lady Gaga has, you know, I think caters, you know, from the story that I read or heard [00:13:00] somehow like her, her grandmother can see like the heat signatures and maybe like that, the skin.Heather: Crazy. De'Vannon: And so like, so by her wearing less, our grandmother can actually see her more.Heather: I don't know how some, some people's grandmothers would feel about that, but I guess it's a good excuse to not wear very much clothes. De'Vannon: the grandmothers would totally understand. It's funny, the grandparents, at least, you know, from my experience, the ones that are more open-minded than the actual parents are.Heather: Yeah. Yeah. They can be. That's true. De'Vannon: Because it was my grandmother. When I was young, I would put on my love talking about like three, four or five years old. I would put on my mother's heels or little pumps, a little, two inch ones, whenever my parents were gone. And I would put on like an oversized shirt, which is pretty much what I wore. And I put on one of her belts and tied around my stomach and make me a dress Heather: Yeah. De'Vannon: I put on her shoes.And I would run around the house, the little shack we lived in, you know, you can't even call that a house. And I would just [00:14:00] like be a girl and my mother shoes and my grandmother would keep a lookout at the door in case my parents were coming back and give me the signal.Heather: That's awesome. Grandparents. They just want to heck whatever makes you happy. De'Vannon: Yeah. They've lived long enough they're over this shit. It's like, Heather: Yeah, it's true. De'Vannon: Okay. So, so then let's, let's talk about like, so you mentioned. being admitted for psychiatric treatment. What, what exactly are your mental health diagnoses?Heather: So I struggle with major depression, anxiety and OCD. De'Vannon: Okay. Wow. Okay. Major depression, anxiety. Yeah, I've had, I've had all three of those too. And Hmm. So much to work with there. How do you well, tell him, tell him, tell him, tell me what was it like for you being in the mental hospital and what led you there?Heather: Well, [00:15:00] it's, it's hard to put into words really, as I'm sure people can relate to who have been there and everybody always asks you, is it like in the movies? And I mean, yes and no, there is a lot of drama that goes on, but it's not like constant, there are moments of, of calm, but I mean, you, your freedom is taken away, you know?Get to make any decisions really for yourself. You have somebody always watching you, especially for the first few days, if you come in on suicide watch. And so I ended up there because in November of 2000, it's kind of a long story, but in November of 2018, I entered into a major depressive episode that just went on and on and on for months, it didn't end. My hair was falling out. I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping. And I arranged an emergency meeting with my doctor in June because it [00:16:00] just was getting to the point of no return. And I was actually able to stay out of the hospital that time. They just played with my medications. Got me more. Outpatient mental health supports, but then when the pandemic hit, it was like, you know, nobody was seeing people in person anymore.My doctors and therapists weren't even seeing people on video call. It was just like regular phone calls. So they never really saw how I was deteriorating and they never you know, it was harder to reach them. So there was a lot less support. And I think I just, wasn't far enough into recovery that I could manage that on my own.So I started to think with the uncertainty of everything and my Dick and troll everything that I couldn't, that the one thing that was left that I could control was how and when I would die. But before I did [00:17:00] that, I decided. You know, as a promise to unspoken promise to my loved ones, I was going to go to the hospital.And if I wasn't admitted or if I didn't feel better, when I got out, I would kill myself and I didn't really expect or want to get better, even it was more going for absolution, I guess. So that when I was gone, my family and friends would kind of think, well, she tried, but, so I figured if I did get held at all, I didn't think I would, but I figured if I did, it would be, you know, at the most the 24 or 48 hour psych holds you usually hear about.But no, it didn't quite work out that way De'Vannon: How long were you in for?Heather: nine days. De'Vannon: Yeah. That can be a lifetime. Cause you you've never been to jail or anything like that before Heather: No, no. So nine days, yeah, it feels like a long time. De'Vannon: yeah. That, that, [00:18:00] yeah. It's like, so y'all what she's saying. Can't be, they can't be overstated when your freedoms are taken from you. I, I think I was in the mental hospital for 12 or 14 days and it's it's Just imagine you're not able to come and go as you, please, if you want to go get a Sprite or a glass of wine, the answer is no, you know, you can't walk down the street, Heather: In the psych ward. De'Vannon: right?Like you, you, and then you know, you around people who are far more crazy than you are know a lot of times. And so, you know, so you're like, damn, I know I got some problems, but that motherfuck over there really fucked up.Heather: Yeah. And it's all out there. They're a lifer. They're not getting out of here. I hope. De'Vannon: I remember they had all the, it was this big, huge plastic, like Mario brothers Lego land furniture, bolted to the ground. Heather: Yeah, [00:19:00]De'Vannon: nothing's movable. Heather: no. De'Vannon: There's one guy there that the tiles that like colored little checkers in it and he was trying to move the COVID checkers. Like, yeah, I think he was seeing in 3d everything really in like Wendy and the standing on the couch, talking to people who weren't there, you know, you had the guy of course shitting on the floor.I think you have those in like every , psych ward.Heather: I think so. Yeah. And then sometimes they play with it. Anyways, just taking that too far. De'Vannon: You can never go too far. When I was in jail one time, this one girl was telling us that she was definitely a medical case. I think someone had come to see her or something. And then she decided this shit into a water bottle. Cause she didn't like this person and throw it either on him or in his direction.And then, then she coined the term, the itty bitty shitty committee.Heather: Oh, gee, [00:20:00] why is it always shit? I don't get it, De'Vannon: Hey, it's organic,Heather: I guess. Yeah. It's all you got, I suppose when they take everything else away. De'Vannon: No sharp pencils. No nothing. So no pointy objects. Heather: no No, cell phone chargers, no shoes. De'Vannon: No shoelaces Heather: No. De'Vannon: nothing like that. So you, so we mentioned that the like blind is being on a, in a way, first of all, I'm very glad that you're still alive and that she was still with us. I'm glad that your, your absolution plan was interrupted that way. And also even more to the point, glad that you understand that, you know, your deliverances and your struggles are not something that had to be kept secret.I'm glad you get that. You made it out so you can help others make it out.Heather: yeah, totally. And that's part of the reason I made it out.I think De'Vannon: I think so too with me as well, my sister. So what are some of the other common myths misconceptions about [00:21:00] blindness you've explained to us that it's actually on us, a gradient, like on a scale on a spectrum, you said, is there anything else that are some misconceptions about blindness.Heather: Are there a ton. But we have super crazy senses. I think like when the movie Daredevil came out of that kind of ruined my life. Cause everyone's like, oh, do you see butter in the rain or whatever? I can't even remember it. Cause I don't actually even think I saw the movie, but I think it was something like that. So senses, no, we don't have these like crazy, super human senses. They're not really any better than yours. They're just way more developed. We learn to use them more effectively, but they're not like super human I wish. Cause that'd be cool.De'Vannon: So you can't hear a pin drop in the water, like a mile away.Heather: No, probably not. I can smell a Starbucks from a few blocks away.though. De'Vannon: Okay. So then, so like all the senses are heightened [00:22:00] relative to somebody who would have them all, but in different blind people. So like somebody might have stronger smelling, you might have stronger here and somebody else might have stronger, you know, touch. So even amongst the line, people there's, you know, one might develop even more, you know, in somebody. Heather: Yeah, I think so. And it's just, it's just practice. That's all it is. We're not like born with something different than everybody else says. De'Vannon: Yeah. All right. So with that, any other misconceptions?Heather: Gosh, how can you pick just one that we don't dream. De'Vannon: are, you can talk about as many as you would like my dear. You said you don't dream.Heather: Yeah. That's I don't know a lot of people think that, but yeah, we do. And people always ask, do you see in your dreams? No, but it's kind of weird because in my dreams I'm like, never, like I can be in these unfamiliar environments, but there'll be like totally familiar to me, like my own house. So I never use like a cane or a [00:23:00] dog or anything in, in my dreams, even if I'm in like a place.I don't know. So that's kind of weird.De'Vannon: So you're saying you do. Heather: Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. De'Vannon: do during the misconception that some people think blind people don't dream. Heather: Yeah, De'Vannon: Okay. So I guess, I guess some people think since you can't see anything, you wouldn't have anything from which to form a dream. But what you're saying is that even though you don't see like other people do or in some blonde people, can't see it all you dream you're dreaming and perfect clarity.Heather: yeah. Not so much visually. It's so hard to explain, just, you know, I don't need there's none of those barriers. So I don't need, maybe it's just lack of like total inhibition. I don't know. But there's none of that, like, oh my God, I need, I need my cane right now. Cause I'm gonna like fall over or some shit or something like that.I just know in my dreams, it's really weird. De'Vannon: All right. [00:24:00] Cool. So. Until we say. So we've talked about getting, you know, checked into the mental hospital and everything. The plan to do the suicide, which didn't happen. Can you tell me though, when you first have it started having struggles with depression and anxiety, what was going on in your life to, to, to bring you down to that?Heather: Yeah. It started super early for me. I would say by seven, the anxiety was pretty well developed. There were some family struggles. My dad had cancer and then he actually left. And so there were things like that going on as well. I was starting to really realize that?people were not, not all people, but that there were some people that were uncomfortable around me.My classmates were kind of starting to realize it as well at that age. So I would get sick a lot at school and have to be sent home. [00:25:00] I would have panic attacks, but I didn't know what they were obviously at the time. And the depression, I think kind of started in my early teens as a reaction to that anxiety because who wants to feel like that all the time.So you're kind of looking for a way out of it. De'Vannon: Yeah, I mean, Growing up, you know, with all the hormonal changes and things like that that are going to naturally happen. And then I have, you know, you know, blindness thrown in on top of that, and then, you know, a parent to abandoned you, you know, as well, you know, do you feel like all of these struggles have made you stronger though?Heather: I think so. Yeah, because I mean, I'm pretty grateful for where I am today and, you know, he kinda think about it like a, choose your own ending book and like, wow, if I'd turn that page, what would have [00:26:00] happened differently? Where would I have been? And I think that to lead me to this point, when, you know, I've gotten to do quite a few things that I wanted to do, you know, I released three albums.I wrote this book and things like that. You know, I needed material to write a vote for those albums and for the book and things like that. So I think, yeah, I think all of that was kind of leading to, to this moment and to get to do those kinds of things. De'Vannon: Oh, absolutely. And the beautiful thing Heather about it, you know, now that you have the book written in the music, you know, those things will outlive you. So it's a, it's a great testimony. So people, as long as this earth remains, you know, your voice will be a contributing factor to people's healing and deliverance.And so it's, it's a gift that keeps on giving, Heather: yeah, I hope so. De'Vannon: And so, but when [00:27:00] did you first know that you wanted to, to write a book though? Like when did it hit you? Like, you know what, it's time to put this pin in the paper for this.Heather: So people were telling me for years, like, oh, you should write a book. And I'm like, what the hell would I write a book about? Like, I didn't really feel like I had anything to say. And then a couple months before I went into the hospital, I was talking to my therapist and I was like, you know, I could write a book about all this stupid shit people Do and say, because I'm blind and he, he kind of looked at me and went, well, maybe you should.And I kind of dismissed it. And then I was in the hospital actually, and I was laying awake one night. I couldn't sleep. And somebody was brought in by air, ambulance in critical condition. And so I'm laying there listening to all this stuff going on, you know, there was the code blue called and everything like that and kind of going like.Those peoples that, that person's family must be [00:28:00] having one of the scariest nights of their lives. And then I thought, well, how come I can feel so much compassion for their loved ones? And like, I know that the choice that I want to make will devastate my own and you know, this person in the bed would, they want to trade places with me if they could, because I have a choice and they're fighting to live right now and I'm fighting to die.And it just kind of was like at this cross rate roads of like I knew in that moment that I had to make a decision, I was either going to live or die. And if I was going to live, I had to make this pain mean something. I had to turn that pain into purpose to try and help other people, because I think the most painful thing of what I went through, honestly, I was thinking about somebody else having to go through that as well.So, you know, if I could reach even one person and, you know, take away a little bit of [00:29:00] that pain for them, then, you know, living was worth it. So that's when I started actually trying, you know, working with the doctors and therapists actually being an active part of my treatment plan and things like that.So I could get well enough to leave the hospital and tell my story in this bookDe'Vannon: Do you feel like maybe that individual had whatever happened to them and it was airlifted and all that code blue happened, you know, in part to get your.Heather: kind of. Yeah. Like, I don't know. I, you know, some people might say, oh, that's crazy or whatever, but I think, I think things. Do sometimes happen for a reason. I hate when people say that when there's like some awful tragedy and somebody dies or something and oh, everything happens for a reason. But I think some things are, I think some people get put in our paths right when we need them.And I think this person did for me. [00:30:00] And fortunately I was at a moment where I was ready to receive that because I think if somebody else had told me about that, or if I had read that in the news or something, you know, it wouldn't have affected me So, much as actually being there. So yeah, I do think that fortunately, that person was there and I was fortunately in a place that I was ready to receive that, that lesson or that message.De'Vannon: So, what we're talking about here is a, is like having spiritual understanding. So to what we're talking about is like the one person might look at what happened and say, okay, well, people are gonna drop into emergency rooms all the time. You know, you're in a hospital anyway, how could that be assigned to you personally, but for people who have spiritual understanding and who can listen to the signs and who have their hearts open to receive such things, you know, that I [00:31:00] can look at this and go, okay.I don't believe that that was accidental, that you were in the hospital that night. When somebody in a circumstance with your state of mind came in, puts you on a different trajectory. Heather: Yeah, absolutely. De'Vannon: So somebody, you know, what spiritual understanding is going to look at that and go, okay, God made that happen. Or, you know, some spiritual force that they, they don't want to believe in God or whatever, you know, the notes say, you know, this is a spiritual thing.You know, it happened this way for a reason, this was not an accident. Look, she's had three albums and a book now, you know, this was a pivotal moment for her. And, you know, in the, and they're in, is a different. So so I encourage people to check this, you know, their level of spiritual understanding and perhaps consider looking at things from different perspectives and finding, you know, connections there and see what's speaking to you when you have unusual things happen to you. So talk to me about what it's like [00:32:00] being blind and living in different countries, because in what all countries have you lived in.Heather: I've lived in Peru and I spent a lot of time in.Mexico. I feel like I've practically lived there because I like I'll spend three weeks here a month here, that sort of thing. But I actually lived in Peru for an extended period of time. De'Vannon: So do people treat blind people differently? They have is you have a different experience where they nicer, where they meaner, what I mean, you kept going back. So I guess it was good.Heather: Yeah, probably wouldn't go back if they were meaner. I'm going to make some huge generalizations here and there only generalizations, but I think like I'm in Canada and I think the U S is pretty similar in that people tend to have one of two responses when they meet me either they try to completely avoid the topic of me being blind.And it actually gets to the point where it's [00:33:00] like uncomfortable, because you can tell that they want to ask and they want to know more, but they won't, or they try to pretend they're totally cool with it by cracking jokes and things like that. And I like a good blind joke as much as the next person, but I've heard them all a thousand times.People are not actually that original, but in contrast people in Latin America, they tend to observe far more. So Yeah, in general, they can be more intuitive, I guess, and kind of Intuit what I might need and how I might need help or not need help without making like a big awkward deal about it. They're just way more like casual about the whole thing and way more casual about differences.I think in general, they, they kind of are more accepting of adversity and willing to meet people where they're at.De'Vannon: So basically they just have a natural flow about it. [00:34:00] Do they teach you.Heather: yeah, exactly. De'Vannon: Unless this is something since situation might warrant some sort of change. But other than that, they just there's just cause they're just cool about it.Heather: Yeah. Yeah. It's not even something they really think about. De'Vannon: So I wonder what that speaks to the internal nature, you know, cause you know, we can't give away what we don't have. So in order for them to be that cool and that chill with you, that lets me know that they're, that they're strong and well composed on the inside, you know, for them fucking Americans and.Heather: and Canadians. De'Vannon: Well, I'll let you say that. I haven't been, I haven't been off of a plane in Canada. I've been through, through there on planes before. So you could say fucking Canadian and my gosh now I'm getting, I'm getting South Park flashbacks. Sheila Broflovshi south park, the movie, she hated the Canadians.They had the whole blame, [00:35:00] Canada, blame Canada, things like everything's gone wrong since Canada came along.So that whatever that speaks to the, like the internal state of being with Americans, you know, in Canadians, you know, sometimes it seems like some of the richest countries, which, you know, America is just like, like the most fucked up character.Heather: Yeah, it's true. I mean, I love Americans, but yeah, it's a little, a little messed up. De'Vannon: Oh honey, this, this country has a long way to go in terms of actually showing love to a diversity of people.Heather: Yeah. And so it is Canada. De'Vannon: You know, the love of country, the big, big thing with people, especially Latin Americans, Heather: [00:36:00] Yeah, De'Vannon: love of country, and futballHeather: yeah, yeah. And food, De'Vannon: of,Heather: they take food pretty seriously. De'Vannon: I take food pretty seriously.Heather: I do too, but I don't know, like compared to like Mexico or the rest of Latin America, like we got nothing. Like what food do we really have? That's like ours, like hamburgers or grilled cheese. I don't know. De'Vannon: American. Yeah. Hot dogs, popcorn, baseball type shit.Heather: Yeah. Same here. De'Vannon: I don't know. I eat everything off the ocean myself. I love a lot of seafood.Heather: Oh, sushi. Do you like sushi? De'Vannon: Yes. I love everything. Japanese I'm studying Japanese. I that's that's that's the country. I would move to whenever I get ready to abandon this, this, this, this, this place here. And so what are some of the [00:37:00] positives of being blind? I don't think that when people look at blindness, they really think very much a good can come out of it.So what, what are some of the positivesHeather: I can put makeup on without a mirror. De'Vannon: you hear that? And drag Queens, no mirror needed.Heather: No, exactly. I think there's, there's lots of things. You get, I don't know, like you maybe learn to be not, not every blind person, but maybe we learned to be a little bit more empathetic. We had to ride the bus for free in, in most places. We, what else we get to skip in lines a lot, which like, I don't really know how I feel about that because on one hand we want to be treated just like everyone else.But on the other hand, we get special accommodations and I, I kind of [00:38:00] struggle with that one a little, but I guess that could be seen as, you know, one of the positives. De'Vannon: Yeah. Hey, you got to take what you can get in this life.Heather: It's true. It's true. Like, I don't ha I don't need a nexus card to cross the border, which is nice. Cause those things are expensive, but I get to go in the next, this line anyways. De'Vannon: You see them there, there, there could be somebody blind out there who didn't know about those Heather: yeah. Maybe or someone who's going to go on the internet right now and buy a white cane. No, don't do that.De'Vannon: And so his comment, his knowledge is, you know, not, it's not really, you know, that doesn't mean necessarily when knows it, you know, so little stuff like that. I didn't know, you know, that blind people get the ride, the bus for free and most places are about crossing the border hat. And I had no idea.And so when there could be a parent of a blind person out there trying to figure out, you know, what to do and how to do it, and that information that you gave them, [00:39:00] my just opened some new doors for them.Heather: Yeah. There certainly are little perks you learn about them. De'Vannon: Those things can go a long way, especially somebody who's struggling financially. I've been broken up before when I was homeless, I couldn't afford the 50 cents or a dollar 15 or whatever it was to catch the bus.Heather: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. De'Vannon: You know, it's a Heather: Other, there are definitely people who do fake it. De'Vannon: oh, you don't, you're not necessarily carrying some sort of credential, like a, I dunno if there's a way to prove it or anything.Heather: Supposedly there's a card. I have it mine's like five years expired. Nobody ever asked me for it. They see the cane and they're like, oh no, you're good. De'Vannon: And so you mentioned a white cane, is that, is that a color specific for people who are blind?Heather: Yeah, it's kind of the most recognized symbol, I guess the, the white cane [00:40:00] means blind person. You can, I think get different colors now, but it's just like super recognizable, you know, somebody sees a white cane and they're like, oh yeah, that person's blind?De'Vannon: Okay. That's another thing I didn't know. But I suppose I could, you know, maybe could have figured it out in the situation, you know? Cause when I hear white cane, I'm thinking like, you know, a pimp walking in the club and you know, with like a white fur coat and a whiteHeather: Very different interpretation. But yeah, I didn't see that. De'Vannon: perspective is everything.So how did, how do, how did, how has your music helped you with your, you know, desire depression and anxiety and everything like that over the years, talk about how your [00:41:00] music has been therapy for you and what techniques have worked for you the best to help you manage your mental health.Heather: So, I mean, I kind of grew up singing. I would take like this old heavy tape recorder around with me everywhere when I was like five and just like make up songs all the time. And it was always kind of helpful to like exist in my own little world, I guess when things got to be too much and kind of live in that fantasy world of writing songs and stories and things like that.And then as I got older into my teen years and I felt more isolated. I started writing, I guess, more serious songs. And it was just, it's very therapeutic, very comforting to sit down at the piano and really talk through, I guess, what I was feeling. And then when I was 15, I entered a talent competition and one of the judges for [00:42:00] the finals actually came up to me backstage and was like, Hey, I'm a producer.We should do some recording together. I didn't actually think it would ever happen. But three weeks later we were in the studio recording and the studio like that first day in the studio was like, my God, I finally found my place in this world. And so it was, it was a huge comfort to me as I was going through those tough years to get to be in the studio and be with, I think, musicians or another group, for whatever reason that are just like super cool with people who are different.So none of them really ever questioned me. You know, I was just this girl who played music and loved music. It wasn't, you know, the blind girl who plays music, it's just a person. So how was really comforting. And I don't, I don't know what I would have done, honestly, with that. Music and without kind of that intervention of that producer, because I was still really [00:43:00] struggling and that gave me purpose and something to live for and to fight for.So if I didn't have that, I don't know, honestly what would have happened. De'Vannon: Well, I'm glad you found it. Family. It sounds like amongst the music, the musical crowd,Heather: Yeah. Yeah. They really are. De'Vannon: and you see, this is something that I talk about often is how sometimes our natural blood family and the people who we are raised around, they don't always pan out to actually be the best family for us. Sometimes, sometimes blood is not really a sticky thick is water.Heather: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's very true. And it's cool with friends that you actually get to choose your family when you're, when you're super close with somebody and you can totally feel like their family, even if they aren't related. De'Vannon: I mean related family. I really want people to get out of this dependence [00:44:00] on related family because of how destructive family can be. You know, you, you, you, you sat there and you see people go through the greatest stress. They end up with strokes and in hospitals, because they're worrying about something about blood family.Say it to them, it's doing to them going to accept them, people in the LGBTQ plus community. You know, we go and kill ourselves because you know, our family has rejected us. know, know our blood family has rejected us, but people, you know, when one door closes, that just means you have an opportunity to go through another one, you know, so we can go and pick other family.And the, and the Hebrew Bible says it like this, that there's a friend that sticks closer than a brother and better a friend near than a brother far. So, you know, no matter how you believe, whether you believe in God or not, surely you can see the wisdom in what and what those texts they're saying. Heather: Yeah, totally. De'Vannon: reach out to who you [00:45:00] can, you know, for family, instead of trying to force your blood people to act ways that they don't want to act.Heather: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so true because there so many people, you, you see who put up with such shit from their family members because they're family And you wouldn't put up with that from anybody else on the planet, but it's okay because their family, well, no, it's not.De'Vannon: And they'll even say those words, there'll be like, you know, we'll go through this and you know what, we'll put up with it. Why? Because we're family and I, and I, and I'm sitting there thinking that's exactly why you shouldn't because there's, that means they're taking it sounds all great. And rosy and sweet.Oh, it's family. And it's such a nice warm platitude and everything, but nobody should treat you bad and disrespect you. I don't give a fuck who they are.Heather: Yeah. Yeah. What is family really mean? Like why? I don't know. I've never understood that.De'Vannon: Mom, dad, sister, brother, family, is the people who [00:46:00] accept you unconditionally and show you love no matter what family, like when I got arrested, it was not my family who came and bonded me out. It was my bartender. I was a drug dealer as well. So we had a symbiotic relationship, but the point is, you know, the blood family was not there first, you know?And so Or, or the second time I got arrested, I, I don't know what was going on. I was so fucking high. And so, and so, but gosh, I've seen it. You know, friend of mine, they got, you know, she was getting married, you know, she's come from a strong Catholic or, you know, the, the Catholic cold as I call them background, you know, he's not Catholic.I don't think he really believes in anything. It was a whole thing. You know, the family was like, oh, I can't believe you're marrying someone. Who's not Catholic and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Not, you know, he treats you, well, he loves you. He respects you. And all of that, you know, let's focus on this one thing that we don't like about him because he's not like us or [00:47:00] how we think he should be in.Let us make that cause you stress. Heather: yeah. De'Vannon: That's the type of bullshit that blood family will try to impose upon you here. Meanwhile, if you're at your drag mother's house or at your gay family's house or musicians, they're going to be like, cool, welcome in the story.Heather: Yeah, exactly. And, if they're not, then, you know, you just stop hanging out with them because apparently there are no family, so you don't, you don't let other people treat you that way.De'Vannon: And, and so why would blood family feel like they could call somebody stress over that? Because they assume that that blood family person will always be there no matter what. Heather: Yeah. De'Vannon: And, you know, we don't go to work, acting a fool because we know that we don't always have to keep that job. We can dismiss that employer, or they could dismiss us in blood family.There's this, this is a lie that people believe like you always have to be their people. You have the [00:48:00] right to divorce your blood family. You can walk the fuck away from them. Or if you want to, you don't have to deal with them for the rest of your life.Heather: Yeah. Yeah. De'Vannon: Sometimes people need to just hear what we're saying, Heather, they go in and cuss their mom out one last time. But then don't talk to the bitch again. You know, if she's got you fucked up, not customer my dad out a couple of years ago, I was, I was across the street, you know, buying some crack rocks and whatever.And so he decided, you know, he was waiting in his, his front then his driver, when I got out to yell at me for buying the crack. And everything. Cause this drug dealer, he had a crush on me so I can get a lot of rocks for him, from him, you know, for like cheap. And so, yeah, I don't smoke crack anymore, but you know, I don't, you know, rest in peace, Whitney, I feel you girl, you know, I feel you girl.And so but you know, so I had [00:49:00] to cuss him out because you know, this is a man who's had, you know, not one but two affairs, you know, and a couple of other things and I'm like, oh, well, Hey, I'll tell the no, you're not about to judge me about my crack rocks when you can keep your Dick in your pants. Oh no,Heather: Yeah. One of these things is okay, but the other isn't De'Vannon: it's not going to happen like that, sir. No, from that day forth, he's treated me a lot better. We have a completely different relationships. If he got cussed out one good fucking time.Heather: really that's awesome. That is able to be that 180. Cause I think sometimes it's, it's not like family members just fall back into old patterns, so that's, you must have been very effective. De'Vannon: Oh, I'm sure that they heard me all up and down the street, a few blocks over because that was some pent up rage and aggression that I had been having at him for a long ass time. And it was my grandmother that told me about the first affair that he had when, when [00:50:00] my mom was pregnant with me, Heather: Ooh. De'Vannon: it's some, some men like to cheat on their wives when they're pregnant with their babies, for whatever fucking reason, it's a certain type of evil that I do.It's just lower than low because she's vulnerable in already in super emotional. And all of this is going on. And during this time, some men are more attracted to their women when they're pregnant. And then you've got scoundrels like how my dad was, who were like, Hey, you know, now I'm going to go skip across town while you're here with this child in your belly.And the other three that you already have.Heather: yeah. Yeah. Even though you know that you were a part of that you helped to create this, you should probably, you know, stick around at least still it's born. Hopefully afterwards, De'Vannon: You think so, but honey, whom the whom the son sets free is free. Indeed. Families are not meant to be [00:51:00] a burden yourself from anything that is causing you, stress that maybe you can't walk away immediately. Then you can establish a plan. Start to think about it. I started to pray about it, meditate about it.If you don't care to, to do something called prayer, then that's fine. You know, meditate about it or something and see what you can do to identify the causes of the stress and then get away from it.Heather: Yeah. Yeah. Which doesn't happen all at once. Often, you know, sometimes it's small steps of putting in little boundaries at first. De'Vannon: And a little bit goes a long way, you know? And then it grows from there. I mean, but have a, your story in and of itself has peer encouragement. Cause you know, some people think about blind people, they can't do anything you've traveled. You've written your You've written your three albums. You've written your memoir.You've lived in other countries, you know, and you're still promoting yourself and [00:52:00]everything like that. You know, even though you have blindness and also you have mental disability that you're, that you still struggle with every day and you're still doing the damn thing. And that's what I love about your story because you have all of this, but you're not letting that hinder you.So how do you, how do you tell yourself a mantra everyday to get up and to move forward? How do you keep from focusing on what the problems are and focusing on what you can.Heather: I think my mantra is turn pain into purpose. So do one day, one thing every day that makes this world better and it can be like the smallest thing, but one act is going to do so much for self-worth. And then when you have that self-worth you can do more. Cause I think as you, as you said, there is this another kind of misconception that a lot of people have that, you know, blind people leave this lead, this.[00:53:00]Boring depressing life. And it actually hindered me from reaching out for help for a long time, because I was worried that if I did people would just be like, oh, you're blind. Like, of course you're depressed, but there's so much more to it. But no, generally, like we lead very full lives. De'Vannon: Absolutely. And so in case there's somebody out there who is. Blind or even if they're not blind, but suffering from mental health issues or perhaps there's something, you know, that you said did they, that they can identify with, you were able to channel your pain into, into writing. So can you explain a little bit about what the process was like for writing a book and how it differs and what the process, how it differs from and what the process is for like writing songs?Maybe somebody might want to start with.Heather: Yeah.no, you totally should. Even if you don't share it with anyone, it can [00:54:00] be such an outlet. And then if you do feel like sharing it with people, it's so wonderful to get that response of, oh, me too. You know, I feel that way too. Or this happened to me and this song really helped me. Like, that's kind of what, what we live for as musicians and the songwriting process.I think for me writing the book was, was a little bit different because songwriting, I guess I tend to hide behind metaphors a little bit more, or you can say, oh, you know, like I'm talking about the song isn't necessarily about me or this part of the song isn't necessarily about me, but in a book it's all about you and you don't get to hide behind metaphors because then there's no point in writing it.If you're not going to be raw and honest, You know why I do it. So that was really challenging. There were a lot of like sleepless nights of, oh my God. Like, what is this person gonna think? Or what if this person. Thanks. I meant this thing a [00:55:00] different way, or, you know, like all of these, like how are people going to react?Because you're writing about people who are still alive as, as I'm sure you're going through right now, De'Vannon: Yeah. Heather: is challenging because you have to like, are you going to let them read it ahead of time? Are you going to allow them to influence what you write? You know, all these questions, you know, are you doing it for the right reasons?That was a big one for me. Cause I know some people who kind of doubted initially what I was doing were like, well, is this to get revenge? So I really had to think about that one. And I was like, no, like it, it definitely isn't because the people I'm talking about in this book who have done me wrong, I couldn't care less if they read it.So, no, it's not about revenge. It truly is about telling my story and hopefully helping other peopleDe'Vannon: And there's also. I it's been unexpectedly healing for me to both host this [00:56:00]podcast and talk about things and also to write, I knew it would be, but it's, it's been more profound than that. And and just like Heather was saying, sometimes you have to start small. So, so she's not saying sit down and bust out a whole memoir tonight or crank out three albums right now.So you may start with one line, just write how you feel that they may be in a journal. You know, it's just something healing and writing. It's a form of therapy. That's practiced in mental health circles, all around the world. W all kinds of writing and stuff like that. It's something about putting pen to paper.Are you going to click away on a keyboard somewhere or on an iPad or whatever it it's. It just, it does it just heals, man. I don't know why.Heather: I think it's easier to. Thoughts and feelings out on paper or virtual paper. It's so like, oh, that's how that happened. You know, you can see maybe a [00:57:00] bigger picture that you can't just see in your mind until it's actually out there on a piece of paper. De'Vannon: And then writing is also another form of expression in the sense that maybe there's something you would like to tell somebody and you can't invoke a lot. Like when I got HIV, I couldn't tell anybody. It was something about if I couldn't find the words, I don't know if I thought it would make it really real.I'm going to always, I think I already knew it was real. I don't think I mentally could have handled it. So I texted my friend and attorney and then I, I let my boss listen to the voicemail of the ratchet as a doctor who left my positive HIV diagnosis on my voicemail. I left, you know, the white while it's I'll let him hear it.I couldn't vocalize it. And so writing is a way to still communicate, you know, maybe you can find the words locally. There's another way for you.Heather: Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And even [00:58:00] when I was doing the recording for the audio book And I had to read some of those passages out loud for the first time, it was like, I can't do this. This is so hard. It's way harder than writing it. So I totally get what you mean about how vocalizing can be so much more challenging than just writing it down.De'Vannon: And as far as the real life, people who are married mountain, my book, you know, they don't really have a choice in the matter, you know, I changed the names Heather: Yeah. Yeah. De'Vannon: of everybody. So if you sort of, they want to go and make a big deal about it and be like, yeah, I'm the asshole that he's talking about over there on page 42.Okay. Well, that's you, I, you know, I tried to change the name, but if you wanna, you wanna Heather: going to admit to that, right? Like, oh yeah, I screwed you over. Yeah. You're talking about me there. Aren't like, nobody's going to admit to that. Those kinds of the points I got to in my book was like, well, [00:59:00] these people aren't going to actually do anything because they'd have to admit having done something. De'Vannon: Right.And then and that require all kinds of corroboration to, it's just not worth it. It's just be glad that you've made it in somebody as final edit and beagle glad with that. And so,so, so just, I'll let you have the last word. I think we've talked about a good bit today. That will be super beneficial to people. Not just people who are blind, people who know people who are blind and people who are struggling with mental health issues and people who know people who are as well, hear this interview, share this interview.All of Heather's contact information and everything will be included in the show notes. As I always do with direct links to her website or music or books and everything like that. So you can find this woman and ask her whatever [01:00:00] the fuck you want toHeather: there you go. Yes. Do it. De'Vannon: say with Heather: away. De'Vannon: Heather, I'll give you the last word, reading, any kind of words of encouragement you have. So there's a glow, but anyone struggling with the things that you have or anything at all, whatever you'd like to say.Heather: Yeah, I'm not gonna, you know, offer you if you're struggling a whole bunch of bullshit about how tomorrow's another day and it gets better. And things like that, because I know when I was going through it, when people said that kind of stuff to me was the exact moment I stopped listening to them. But what I will tell you and what I can promise you is that there will come a day when you'll stop in a moment and you'll feel such profound joy in that time.And you'll be so you'll think to yourself, I would have missed this and you'll be so glad that you hung on for it. And I hope that you will hang on for that day. De'Vannon: Well eight men. That, that, that, that was that real shit. That wasn't that [01:01:00]bullshit. What'd you do that right there. Thank you so much for joining us today. Heather was, this was a, this was a very helpful episode. Heather: Thank you so much for having me.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at sex, drugs, and jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly DeVannon@sexdrugsandjesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon and it's been wonderful being your host today and just remember that everything is going to be all right. 

Welcome to the Recruitment Hackers podcast. A show about innovations, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry brought to you by  the leading recruitment automation platform.Max: Hello, welcome back to the recruitment hackers podcast. I'm your host max. And today on the show I've got Heather Myers from Tratify. A company which gets inside the head of candidates and finds out what their psychology is made of. And Heather will tell us all about that and more welcome to the show, Heather.Heather: Thanks, max. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me, Dr. Myers, should I call you doctor? You can call me. Heather is fine. I am doctor Heather Myers, but Heather's good. Max: Okay. I'll stick to Heather. But for the audience out there Dr. Myers has got a PhD in psychology and statistics, so you've got the perfect background for this company. Tell us about your life pre Tratify. Where do you come from? How did you put this PhD to good use?Heather: Sure. Well, I actually grew up in Pennsylvania. And when I was a kid, my friends used to call me the marriage counselor.So I kinda knew from an early age that I wanted to go into psychology. Immediately I thought that was going to be therapy. It turns out though, when I actually got to College at Carnegie Mellon, went to university. I realized that I actually really liked research psychology and understanding kind of what makes people tick.And then I went to Stanford for my graduate work and within a personality psychology program there, which I found really fascinating. And I actually got along with the PhD. I got the master's degree in statistics, so I have a master's degree in statistics. And so there, I found that the combination of psychology and statistics was amazing because a lot of people are afraid of statistics, but when you're not afraid of statistics and you really like it, you're so much better at evaluating the research that people put out and that you can see. So that's always been a passion of mine merging the two. And I did a lot of consulting.A lot of helping people actually do. Figure out how to do research and analyze that that and understand it and define what variables they were looking for. So I did a lot of that. I have a couple of kids, I mostly stayed home with them and did consulting. And then I heard about Tratify through actually one of my professors from Carnegie Mellon who was, you know, knew some people who work there and she called me and said, Hey, they really are looking for someone to kind of up there statistics kind of prove their validity, reliability, those kinds of things. And that's how I got connected to Tratify. And for me, it's my dream job because it's the perfect combination of my psychology, the personality piece, statistics, all of it together. So that's how I ended up here.Max: Amazing. Yeah, I yeah, your, your resume looks. Yeah. It's just like the perfect match. Like  actually we don't need to do a psychological assessment in your case, we just read your resume and match you directly to that company. Heather: It's true. It is kind of dreamlike. I mean, and I think initially, you know, when I first started talking to them, it was really more around the statistics.So you know, once I started doing some consulting for them, then it was like, also, I have a PhD in personality psychology, so it was like, wait, what? So when we kind of expanded and I started working full time, then I was able to put really my full skill set to use. Yeah. Max: That's the beauty of a startup life. People are quite an opportunistic. They take advantage of who happens to accidentally come into their employment. Heather: Absolutely. For sure. Max: But from the little you've said, I can sort of glean that you were able to earn your living on the masters of statistics more than on the PhD of psychology.Heather: I would say that's true. I mean, the PhD part helped when it came to teaching people how to do the research because that I didn't get through the statistics when teaching them how to better design studies. But the statistics is the piece that most people know that they don't have. They don't know, they don't understand research.That's just kind of, they just don't know. They don't know, but they do know that they don't know statistics. So that was certainly a much easier in, when I was consulting for sure. Max: All right. Well, tell us a little bit more about Tratify was my intro accurate when I said you helped to get inside the head of the candidates?I don't think that's your official tagline.Heather: It's not our official tagline now, but what we do is help understand personality. Right. So it's all about understanding the candidates better the way they see the world. So I think of personality as the lenses, through which we see the world and it doesn't equate to behavior, but it is linked to behavior, right?So it's understanding more the way a person views the world, the kinds of environments they tend to like to work in, the types of people they tend to like to engage with, the way they communicate. So, all of those things are sort of something that you can have access to, if you really understand the personality. And it's really just helping to understand candidates better to help candidates understand themselves better and really you know, providing this, I think that the key to Tratify's success has been doing all of this.Personality, obviously isn't new and understanding it. And it's been used to kind of help make good fits, but where Tratify really stands out is the experience. So it's a fun engaging candidate experience, you know, really that mobile first, but it's also steeped in the science. And so we help both employers and candidates understand the candidate better and understand where there will be a good match.Max: The exercise of assessing someone's personality is as old as recruitment is.Heather: it is Max: Pretty much based on first impressions. Well, face-to-face interviews, phone interview sometimes. This is the part that Tratify wants to replace, is to have a more scientific approach to that first impression.Heather: That's right. And I wouldn't say necessarily mean replaced, so we don't want to replace all interviews. Right. But it is to get to replace that first impression. And it's true that if you think about a job and you think about having an interview, right. Who tends to do well in interviews?Well, very clearly people who are extroverted. Right. Yeah, exactly. We do fine in interviews. But depending on the job that we're looking to fill, that may not be a plus when it comes to actually doing the job, but when we make a great first impression and so part of what this is allowing companies to do is to have a person fill out this assessment, have a sense of what their personality is, where they fall on various dimensions. So we use the model called the big five or the five factor model helping, which is really the most predictive model of performance in the workplace. You know, over the research in the last 50 years and we see where people are in these things. And so what kinds of environments are they probably likely to be good at?What kinds of jobs are they likely to enjoy and be a good fit? Right. And so it's providing this impression that is really, instead of just what they happen to be good at in a 30 second interview, it's really getting a comprehensive view of sort of the way they see the world and the way their personality is constructed.Max: The risk I suppose with applying  this methodology at scale is that you're going to have a very uniform workforce, where if you're only hiring people on a certain psychological profile you may impact the diversity of thoughts and of cultures. So I'm sure this is a conversation you've had a hundred times with a hundred potential customers.What's your take on you know, maintaining a diversity of thoughts post application. Heather: That's great. And actually that, I'm so glad that you brought that up because it seems like that would be the case. And that's true. If you were really looking for one narrow ideal profile across an organization, but we aren't.So the truth is that when you look at the profiles that we have and that we sort of put together, they tend to be role specific. So a specific job. Sometimes they're even regionally specific, depending upon requirements of different locations. We evaluate them and change them over time as new data comes in.But they're also relatively broad. So we're not saying you have to be an extremely narrow range on each of these five dimensions to do well. They're relatively broad. But for example, in some roles, we know that people who are very low on a dimension, aren't going to do very well.And in other roles, people who are very high are actually not going to do very well. Sometimes either the very highs or the very lows don't. Right. So, and sometimes you need them to be a little higher, a little lower, but the range is relatively broad. And so you don't have people who are all exactly the same.In fact, you have people who might be higher on one dimension and lower on another, when someone else's high on both. So you really do still end up with a diverse set of really that diversity of thoughts. You're not restricting it so much that you are you know, decreasing the likelihood that you'll have diversity of thought as well.Max: Right. And I suppose your ideology and your personality are not the different constructs, right? Heather: Absolutely. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Max: And so to put things to illustrate this with examples you would want someone who is affable, extroverted to be in a customer facing role. You would want somebody who is organized and meticulous to be working on the backend, things like that. Heather: That's right. That's right. So I say one of the ones that I think is super cool is if you're looking at sales positions, so that's one where there's sort of this curvilinear relationship between extroversion and performance.So, if you have people who are too extroverted in sales positions, they spend too much time talking about themselves and like not listening to the customer. So they don't do exceptionally well. But if they're too low, they don't engage the potential customer either. So it's kind of, there's a sweet spot in the middle.You need just enough and you can't have too much. So things like that are really fascinating.Max: I've definitely met that sales guy before. I think I might've been that sales guy. And so what's a good job for somebody who's too extroverted for sales? Heather: Well, that's a great question.So actually extra real extroverts people who are like really extroverted are very good in roles where you often like leadership or kind of visionary roles where you need to like energize people and you need to get everybody on board and get them really excited. And, you know, things like being a CEO, right. Starting your own company. Because you need to get people on board with your vision, a life coach. There you go. Things like that. So, yeah. So there are rules like that, for example , that really capitalize on that. Max: And it makes sense. I have a lot of my former sales team that moved on to go on leadership roles.Cool. Well, I wanted to ask you a little bit about the format on how we're capturing information from candidates and text versus voice versus video. I believe that at Traitify to find you. You help to assess talent pools, which have a diversity of languages as well.And because you're focused on personality, you do not want to put the non English first speakers at a disadvantage, and you're trying to make things a little bit easier for them through the use of image. Could you tell us more about that? Heather: Yeah, absolutely. So really the goal is to just find out as much as you can about the candidate that's, you know, not dependent on their language, for example, or other factors that might make it more difficult for them to respond to a standard personality assessment. So how do we do that? We pair images and short captions. So there's still some texts to anchor what you're supposed to look at within the image. We also have it translated into a number of languages depending upon what customer needs are. And what you find then is that… So  several people in my family have really bad dyslexia, for example. And so taking a standard personality assessment is really painful for them. Because it's like, by the time you get to the end of the sentence, you can't remember what was in the beginning and there's a lot of conditionality and it's just, it's harder.So this makes it easier for that kind of thing. Right. And it's also more fun, more engaging, and it's just, so we're going more for a gut response. We're not asking you to rate it on a longer scale where they're seven points and you have to say it's very, very much like me or not very much like me and for some people that can be a little harder.But we're really trying to get people to just sort of go with their gut. Go through quickly, look at the images, look at the short caption and really have a sense of, you know, kind of who they are across the assessment. So the way that you respond to any one image, isn't going to drastically change your results, right?It's a pattern of responding across it. And I think what we do is make that so much more fun, so much more engaging, and it allows people to just kind of. You know, do it relatively quickly. And you know, not rely a whole lot on a lot of reading. And it's in the language that they speak. And so it just gives us, I think, a more accurate picture of their personality than if you had all of those other kind of confounding factors.Max: Are there a lot of concerns from candidates that what are you going to do with the profile? Do you get a lot of like requests GDPR type requests? Like we want to please delete my information? I'm perceiving this as it's a gamified experience where perhaps you're giving them something fun to play with for a few minutes.And so it's not intrusive. Heather: Yeah, we don't have very much of that. Honestly, very rarely will we have a candidate coming and asking questions. Occasionally and it's funny, they tend to have a psych background and it's more of an interest in how we did the tool, which is kind of funny. But we don't get that often for sure.And I think in part, it's sort of a fun experience, we do offer, and some people do give this a candidate report that you can give your candidates about their personality that just sort of describes them and talks about kind of what some of their strengths are, which I think some candidates really like as feedback for sure.And some organizations choose to offer that and some don't, but I think in general people don't, you know, it hasn't really been something that seems to put people off. And our completion rates are very high. I mean, we have 96% completion rates, you know, for most of the candidates who start taking the assessment.Max: And how long is the average duration of assessments? Heather: It's like somewhere between 90 seconds and two minutes. So it's pretty quick. Yeah, so it's a very quick assessment, so that helps as well. You know, obviously some people take their time, take a little longer. Some people just go through it more quickly, but yeah, on average, it's still very quick.Max: Did you find that the requested personalities and the personality traits that succeed in a remote work culture are going to be different than in an office environment? And has that already trickled down to I mean I believe that a remote workforce requires people who can write well and who are a little bit more autonomous and things like that. And of course you have good internet connections beyond that can you add a layer to those comments? Heather: Yeah. I mean, I think that, so we've been looking at that over time and across our organizations, as some of them have shifted from completely in-person to completely online now, remotely. Others have stayed sort of hybrid approach.There are certainly some things that make it easier. Some personality traits, if you have them like, you know, being high in conscientiousness, like making sure you get things done that generally is associated with success period in a job. But now when it's work from home, there's that accountability piece.But you know, it's interesting a lot of the work that we've done around work from home has been less about what specific types of people will succeed and more around what can you do as an organization to help all of your people succeed? You know, based on their personality. Right. So what do you do when you have the people who are a little lower on conscientiousness, how do you help them ucceed in a work from home environment? And so we've been writing some materials around that and things that people can do. So I would say that in some of our clients we've seen a shift and in many of them, we haven't really yet seen a shift in terms of what the profile should be. You know, having like now we suddenly want to look for this versus that Max: Okay.Heather: And it may just be that we haven't quite had enough data over the time to really see that yet. Max: Yeah. It's not like the remote worker thing is new, people have been working from home forever and ever. I talked to many people who've come on this show. No, like, I don't know what's up with the news that I've been doing remote for the last 20 years,  what's new? Nothing.But we're knowledge workers and the majority of the workers are not knowledge workers still. Or maybe are, at the starts a little bit of knowledge workers. I don't know what that category is called. And I guess the majority of your volume is coming from jobs that require physical presence.Heather: Many. Yes. Many of them are that's right. Many of them are call centers, for example, that don't, that have moved to all remote. And actually I'm analyzing some data for one of them. And now to see if we've seen any shifts, so stay tuned. But yeah. What were you saying, Max? I'm sorry, you asked the question at the end there.Max: Yeah. What was the after this year of torment what were the industries that performed well overall and that think they have a bright future in 2021? Heather: Yeah. I think it's still shifting in I mean, obviously as we all know, the hospitality industry has just been decimated.So that's for sure been really challenging. I think, you know, a lot of, even things like restaurant chains some of which do well, depending on what state they're in or what country they're in and others, not so much certainly places where we've seen growth or things like warehouse packaging, kinds of roles people who are working in warehouses, right?Obviously delivery services, those kinds of things. Other kinds of retail have done very well. People have nothing else to do, but shop online if they have the money to do so. And even if they don't the stores that provide the essentials, right. That you have to have like food. So I think those kinds of services have done very well and probably will continue to do so.Max: Yeah, I heard those salaries keep going up for our warehouse and packaging roles. And it's becoming harder and harder to hire for these roles in spite of the high unemployment. Yeah. That resonates with you. What's the dream psychology for somebody working in a warehouse? Because for me, I don't care. I just want them to be big and strong, is that outdated?Heather: Well, but they have to be there, so they have to be dependable. Right? So you want them to be dependable. You can probably things like introversion, extroversion, you probably have a wide range if they're going to be working by themselves a lot, though, that might drive an extrovert absolutely crazy. If they have a bunch of people to work with. So it a little bit depends on, you know, the environment. And there are things like agreeableness, right? Like how likely are you to think about what other people need? So if you're working by yourself, it probably doesn't much matter. But if you're in some sort of, you know, no con not like you have to work cooperatively with other people in the warehouse, then you probably should be a little bit higher on that.So, yeah. Again, it sort of depends on, cause we've seen, look, we have a couple of different warehouses that we've done profiles for and sometimes they're different, depending on what the environment is and kind of how you work within that warehouse. But certainly someone, what is consistent, you want someone who's pretty high on conscientiousness.And oftentimes you want someone who's a little lower on what we call openness to experience, which is that sort of intellectual curiosity, needing to do things differently all the time and be visionary and super creative. Doesn't always do particularly well in a warehouse where you often have to do the same task and you have to do them right. And over and over again, you probably want someone who's a little lower in that dimension. So, those are sort of the, the key things really that higher conscientiousness, maybe some mid range, lower openness. And then beyond that it just depends on the environment and whether or not you're working with people or not.Max: That is very insightful. Heather: It might be more information than you wanted, but you know, Max: I'm interested, I've never thought of it that way. Like you know, Oh, I would want to ask somebody who is low on openness. I mean, it's never crossed my mind, but yeah, it makes a lot of sense. If I were to do that through an interview question, I don't even know where I would begin.Heather: Obviously you don't want to have a leading question. Like how low are you on openness? That's right. So we have some interview questions actually that go along with the results of our assessment, which helps that are personality based. But for things like openness, when you, when you're really trying to get at low openness, what you really are asking are you someone who's comfortable with routine, right?Are you someone who's a little more rigid? Like, do you like to be able to do you know when you have like a set series of instructions or. You know, an outline, a checklist, like it's the checklist manifesto lover, right? It's a person who has checklists and likes to follow them, make sure they're right. And is okay repeating the same tasks every day they go into work. Right. How much variety do they need? So I always say, for example, like quality control is often the way that I think of someone who's a little lower on openness. Because they're okay doing the same thing over and over. And usually it's paired with a higher conscientiousness.Right. Cause they want to do it. They want to do it. Right. But they don't mind the monotony. And that's really kind of the thing, like there's something fulfilling to them about doing it the same way, knowing how they're going to do it. So you don't have to overthink it and doing it the right way. Exactly.I can see that also being applied in a non, I don't mean that to be demeaning. I think that I've been to the studios of artisans in Japan, where they used to make the same clay pots over and over again, you know, passed on from generation to generation.It blew my mind, like, how could you do this? Like, I would go completely insane. Heather: Exactly. Right. And that's the thing about personality, it's so funny. I feel like as a society. We're super judgmental about people who are, you know, higher, low on specific dimensions, like at the U.S we are like are extroverts, right.And we kind of diminish introverts, but really introverts are really good listeners and they like, don't talk unless they have something important to say. So there are these things where it's like being high or low is not necessarily good or bad. It just depends. On what needs to happen. Right. So there's no such thing as a bad personality, right.It just depends on what needs to happen within that role. We all have the bias of hiring people who are a little bit more like us. Heather: Oh, we totally do. Absolutely. The “just like me bias” as we call it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Totally.Max: Well lots to think about and I think I'd like to have your back on the show at some point to talk about how to interview specific job types because that's a series we'll be launching, I've already, I think we've gained a lot here on how to interview the warehouse folks.What's the best way to get a hold of you, Heather? People get in touch with you if they have if they want to talk to you about all of this or about Traitify. Yeah, absolutely. You can find me email is always great on heather@traitify.com, but I also have a LinkedIn and Twitter. And now you're going to ask me for my handles, which I can't remember.You'll have to edit this out. Hold on. I've done that before. Anyway, you can find those and put those in, but I think it's Heather M Y E R S. We'll put the links in the show notes. Thank you very much for joining the conversation today and yeah. Opening our minds on the beauty of diversity in psychology and the fact that we should be looking for our opposites and in some instances anyway, that's right.Heather: Thank you, max. It was wonderful to be here. Thanks for having me. And I look forward to coming back again. Max: Cheers.Max: That was Dr. Heather Myers from Traitify sharing with us some of the methodology behind Traitify of technology that allows us to assess personality within 60 to 90 seconds, a few minutes. Pretty cool stuff and some interesting insights on how you hire for a position, which is quite repetitive, such as working in a warehouse and what kind of characteristics and personality to look for and how to ask for those questions.I got a lot out of it as I hope you have too, and if you want to hear more we'll be doing more on how to interview different professions in the coming weeks, coming months. And what we'd love for you to come back, to listen to more, please follow us on your. Favorite podcast platform and share with your friends.Thank you. 

My guest today is Heather Hedden. Heather is an information management consultant specialized in taxonomies, controlled vocabularies, metadata, and indexing. She's the author of two books, including The Accidental Taxonomist, a guide to the discipline of taxonomy creation and management. In this conversation, we explore taxonomies and why they're important for organizations. Listen to the full conversation Download episode 40   Show notes Hedden Information Management Heather's blog Heather's online taxonomy course The Accidental Taxonomist, 2nd Ed by Heather Hedden Cengage Roget's Thesaurus American National Standards Institute (ANSI) International Organization for Standardization (ISO) World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) Web Ontology Language (OWL) Resource Description Framework (RDF) Simple Knowledge Organization System (SKOS) Microsoft SharePoint Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the full transcript Jorge: Heather, welcome to the show. Heather: Thank you for inviting me, Jorge. Jorge: I'm very glad to have you here. For folks who might not know you, how do you introduce yourself? About Heather Heather: Well, very simply in one word, I'm a taxonomist. But then maybe I have to explain what that is. So, it depends on whom I'm introducing myself to. If they know what taxonomy is, it's a short introduction. And a long introduction is explaining about organizing information, making it more easy to find. Then maybe I explain tagging and indexing and I develop those terms that are used for tagging or indexing online digital content, whether it's internal or external on websites. Jorge: You're also the author of the book called The Accidental Taxonomist, which I think is a great introduction to the subject. And you talk a little bit in the book about how you came to taxonomy work. What do you mean by “accidental taxonomist?” Heather: Well, actually, I came up with the idea of not just about myself, but many people who do taxonomy work don't think that that's something they're going to do when they're students or starting out their career, or even when they're in a position… Suddenly they're in an organization where there's suddenly a need for a taxonomy and maybe they're the ones that are the closest to it. I was thinking at the time, when I wrote about a case of special librarians, special librarians who might normally do research, but they have had some training on cataloging and then they're suddenly asked to make a taxonomy and it's a little bit different and they might not know. But people can come from many backgrounds. They could be subject matter experts. They could be information architects, they could come from IT. And I'm even seeing out from another direction, maybe from ontologies, they could have more of a computer science background. But there are very few courses that are taught, even in library or information schools that are just on taxonomies or… a taxonomy is something that's more practical than theoretical. Jorge: How did you come to taxonomy work? Heather: Okay. So, my background was with content. I had a journalism job and then I got a job with a… well, you could say a library vendor, but the company was indexing and abstracting lots of different magazine and trade journal articles, and I was hired as an abstractor/indexer because I knew how to write the abstracts. And then they trained me on indexing with their controlled vocabulary. And then I moved into the group that managed the controlled vocabularies. We didn't call them taxonomies, but, you know, they fit into that. The name of that company, Information Access Company, doesn't exist anymore because it was acquired by Thompson, then merged into Gale. So, Gale still exists as a division of Cengage. So, that's how I got started, and worked on various controlled vocabularies there. And then, didn't survive the round of layoffs, so then I had to go off on my own and I found out there were other applications and learned other things about taxonomy. Also learned about information architecture then too. And I did some contracting and then got different jobs as a taxonomist here and there. And having worked for more than one, but multiple employers… because each organization looks at taxonomy a little differently, they may have different kinds of content, different kinds of users, it's for a slightly different purpose. So that broad experience working in multiple organizations then made me feel confident about writing about it and teaching. Actually, I do teach an online course, which I actually started before the book. And that was the basis of it. Jorge: What was it about taxonomy work that attracted you? You said that your background was in content, and the sense I got from hearing you talk about it is that you almost kind of fell into it, but you've been involved with it for a long time. You've taught it. You've written a book. What was it about taxonomy work that drew you to it? Heather: Well, it's analytical and it's a little bit creative too. I mean, how are you going to describe a concept? What words will you use? What synonyms should you use? What else will you need to relate that concept to? Should we include it or should we not? And then at the same time, we learn about all different kinds of subject areas. That was a nice thing about working in this company, Information Access Company, Gale, because we were just… all kinds of news, research, periodicals since it went through library. So, I could learn a little bit about many different subject areas rather than becoming a specialist in anything. But, yeah, I liked that it's analytical, it's creative it's…and there's this mix about working independently, but also collaborating with other people. You have to talk with the different stakeholders that are involved. What is a taxonomy? Jorge: We've been talking about terms that some of our listeners might not be clear on, starting with the term taxonomy itself. How do you describe what a taxonomy is to someone who might not be familiar with it? Heather: Yeah, as I said, it's a set of terms, words, or phrases that describe concepts that are used to tag or index documents or content, but they are organized in some kind of structure too that traditionally is hierarchical, but it could be grouped by different aspects that we call facets, or some combination. The funny thing about taxonomy, it's part of a bigger world of what we might call, as I referred to, “controlled vocabularies” or “knowledge organization systems.” But some other ones are more formal. There's nothing actually formal as far as standards for taxonomies. Now the most closely related, is what's called a thesaurus, not Roget's Thesaurus, to look up synonyms, but an information thesaurus, because it has terms that have relationships that could be hierarchical, that is broader or narrower or associative, which is related. And then there also is what they call an equivalence relationship for synonyms or near synonyms, but just terms that could be used for instead. And there are standards for thesauri, published standards from the American National Standards Institute and from ISO, the International Organization for Standardization. And so, taxonomies can borrow from those standards as they like. And maybe some people have heard of ontologies, which are also related to taxonomies in a slightly different way. I mean, ontologies are a way of modeling and describing a domain of knowledge with not just concepts, but more broadly different classes and relations between them and certain types of attributes. And there are standards for ontologies as well from a different organization, from The Worldwide Web Consortium. They have something called the “web ontology language,” used with the acronym “OWL” and letters are not quite spelled right; a little differently. And another standard, RDF, which is the Resource Description Framework. So, I said there are standards. And then there's a standard for vocabularies, or knowledge organization systems, also from the Worldwide Web Consortium called “Simple Knowledge Organization System,” S-K-O-S. Skos, skoos, I've heard it both ways. And this is a little different because it just has to do with the exchange and interoperability. It doesn't provide guidelines for making a good taxonomy, but I'm seeing increasingly more taxonomies follow the SKOS model so they can be shared and exchanged. In defining a taxonomy, there are different approaches too. Some people think about the hierarchy tree of categories of broader, narrower and narrower, and narrower… and other people who realize that it's something that supports a search and keywords and tags might think of it, just a controlled list of tags. And in a sense, a taxonomy brings both of those together, the hierarchy structure, and then the controlled terms or vocabularies by having an unambiguous concept with one name and the others would just be synonyms pointing to it. And it even works that both those aspects show up in displays and in systems because you can have a content management system that lets you have categories and also tags at the same time. And now is that one or more taxonomy, can be a question, but that's… it's all very kind of fluid and that's part of what makes consulting very interesting because it depends so much on each situation and it's not like this is a taxonomy, you know, just do it this way. Applications of taxonomy Jorge: One way that I often describe to folks how they might experience a taxonomy is when considering something like search results. Like they go on, let's say Amazon, and they search for the term “e-reader.” And there is the first result comes back with a Kindle, right? And it might be that the word “e-reader” does not appear in the title Kindle, but somewhere behind the scenes, there's a mapping between those two terms. Is that what you're referring to when you talk about something like a thesaurus? Heather: Okay. The word, thesaurus can mean two different things. When I was talking about the information thesaurus, where they have those relationships of hierarchical and associative and equivalents. A simpler thesaurus that supports search could be called a search thesaurus where we really just have synonyms for each concept. And often a search system, a search engine, will have that kind of simpler thesaurus. We taxonomists also call that a “synonym ring,” because it's a bunch of synonyms that are all pointing to each other with none of them as preferred or displayed. So, that's within the realm of what taxonomists do. Although we may or may not call that a taxonomy. And as I said, since there's no formal standards for what exactly is a taxonomy, the word “taxonomy” can be used in a narrow sense, in a broader sense. Sometimes the word taxonomy can be used for any controlled vocabulary, including a simple search thesaurus, a more complex information thesaurus, an authority of proper nouns, names, or the more narrow definition of taxonomy where it's either hierarchical or arranged into facets with each facet, sort of like a, a hierarchy. Jorge: When you're describing that, particularly these relationships between terms that go beyond the simple synonym ring, it strikes me that these things could become quite complex and perhaps hard to manage. And I'm wondering what are good examples of the sort of business problems, or organizational problems, that having such a structure can help solve? Heather: Yeah. Well, you brought up search before and I actually meant to continue with that because sometimes search isn't good enough. That can be a problem. People are complaining that search doesn't work. They're not finding what they expect to find, or they get results that are irrelevant. So, if there is a search thesaurus or even a fuller displayed taxonomy to integrate with the search, this can help a lot. As I said, the search thesaurus doesn't display to the user, but if you have the terms that even display to the user, then they can use them to filter results and they could be grouped in a certain way, limit or filter. So, the combination of what is entered in a search box and then other topics or categories from a taxonomy to limit or filter results makes it a better experience and you get better results. The core of taxonomy Jorge: In the book you talk about the heart of being a taxonomist and you say that there are three things. So, the first is dealing with concepts. The second is figuring out what the best words are to describe those concepts. And then the third is determining how to arrange the concepts so people can find the information they're looking for. And that strikes me as a skill that has wide applicability in all sorts of situations. You've been describing search results but connecting people with the right information seems like a superpower somehow. Heather: Yeah! Well see, another thing is sometimes people know what to search for and sometimes they don't. And so that's why having something displayed as a taxonomy or facets provide some guidance for those who not too sure where to start, how broad or narrow. So, I find it significant to be able to – I've used this word – connecting the users to content. You know, the search is often dependent on, well, some people are good at searching and some people are not so experienced. But having a taxonomy kind of levels it. It's good for experienced people, and those who are novices, not just in searching, but also in the subject area too, because you can go further with it if you know the subject area, or you can just kind of explore as well by having a hierarchy with broader categories as a guiding starting point. So, I like that aspect of serving users and that's why I've also been interested in information architecture, because that is also very much user centered. Jorge: I remember in one part of the book you talk about the difference in configuring a taxonomy for expert users versus the general public. And they are very different, right? In the case of expert users, the process requires really understanding the mental model that these folks bring to whatever subject domain you're dealing with. Whereas with a more general audience I think it might be harder to predict what the framing they might bring to the situation. Is that a fair take? Heather: Yeah. I was just thinking about how there are different interfaces and they might offer an advanced search, versus just starting with the search box and then after getting results you can limit by or filter by other topics. So, that's simpler. So, that's one way of adapting to users of different abilities or levels. But what remains a challenge is what to call and name the actual taxonomy terms. If some would be more — you know, especially like let's say in a health or medical field — medical professionals would use different terms than patients or just the general population. So, that can be kind of a challenge if it's going to serve both users at the same time, the same content. I mean, that doesn't happen as often. Often content and its user interface is for a slightly more limited audience, but when I've worked before, there were some times trying to address both at the same time. Jorge: This hearkens back to this idea we were talking about earlier, about the core of being a taxonomist, where the first step is dealing with concepts and then the second step is figuring out what to call them, right? And I think that for many people — and for myself, before I started getting into this field — I used to conflate the two, right? I used to think that that, well the name is what it is. Right? But that's not necessarily the case. I'm wondering if you can speak more to that, to the difference between a concept and its labels. Heather: Yeah, well, the concept is an idea, and you first have to agree what… you know, and you can give it a temporary name, and decide, “yeah, we need this in the taxonomy. There's content about it. And people want to look it up.” And then, once you've done that, you go a little further with it and you were suddenly realize, “Oh, there two different names,” or, “we could call it this, or you could call it that…” Well, especially since we're talking about terms that are usually not one word, there is a noun and an adjective or maybe two adjectives. I mean, there's more that can be rearranged. And sometimes you can take up a little bit of time to look into that. I've even just gone searching on the web and seeing by usage counts, which is more common. And then of course talking… if you have access to the users or stakeholders, those involved seeing what they think, or looking up in the content itself, the content that will be tagged or indexed, what's more prevalent. I would say those are, those are the kind of three methods that I most often use to try to decide how something's going to be worded. And then what makes sense to be kind of consistent in style with the rest of the taxonomy. Language Jorge: It strikes me that the primary material that you're working with is language, and this is a line of work that requires mastery of language. Is that a fair take? Heather: Yeah. And not quite as much as you might think, because it deals with language, but also deals with identifying what's significant, what's important, identifying the concepts. And I talk about talking with users. I do conduct interviews with stakeholders. So even that skill of interviewing and getting input information and understanding user interface. So, there's a lot. And I am impressed, I've had students take my course for whom English is not their first language, or even some who worked in taxonomies when it's not their first language. They obviously have to be very, very fluent in the language that they're doing the taxonomy, but you don't have to be… you don't have to have studied linguistics or have that kind of language expertise. Jorge: At the very least, thought, you do have to have knowledge of the different grammatical parts, right? Heather: Yeah. Yeah! Basic grammar understanding. Jorge: There's a difference — and this came across as well in reading the book — there's a difference between creating a taxonomy and managing a taxonomy. These language structures evolve over time. Language evolves over time, And I'm wondering you, you are a consultant now, right? Heather: Yes! Jorge: So, and I'm a consultant as well, which means that, at least for me, I often come into projects and help organizations get the ball rolling on a project, maybe give them pointers as to what the shape of the thing should be. But then there's this work that comes afterwards of not only helping the thing come to life and be applied, but also to have it evolve over time. And I'm wondering if you could speak to the difference between the project of making a taxonomy and the governance aspect of taxonomies. Heather: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. That is important, especially in my role as a consultant, because I'm coming in for the short term of developing, designing the taxonomy, and then I leave and those who are in the organization there have to maintain it. So, as part of what I do is I always develop governance, plan, documentation, guidance of how the taxonomy should be maintained, which means, what are the criteria for adding a new term to the taxonomy? And what is the guidance for its style and format that we get into the more… the “word” part of it. But then there's the guidance on how it should be applied in the indexing or tagging. So, there could be guidance on how many taxonomy terms should be tagged to a content item or document. And if they are different kinds or different facets, what they should be used. So, that is very important. When I have worked as a staff taxonomist, controlled vocabulary editor, and then I was doing a mix of both, sometimes developing something new in a special project, while also maintaining the larger subject thesaurus-controlled vocabularies, and also the governance and maintenance documents continued to need evolving. It's surprising. You think it would have already been all documented, but then we'd come up with something else, such as relationships between two different vocabularies that hadn't been documented well enough, and I was looking into that recently. Jorge: Yeah, I remember reading in the book, an example of a scenario, which is not uncommon in the business world, where companies merge, right? Or there's an acquisition. And all of a sudden you have this situation where — and this strikes me as more of like a project-based intervention — but it's also an intervention where the team in charge must deal with planned and organized and smooth change coming to their vocabularies. Heather: Yeah. Well, I was thinking in that situation where two companies who already have controlled vocabularies for a similar purpose, the companies merge, and then they have to merge their controlled vocabularies. But then there are things that are related to expanding into a different market or different business and needing to reach a different audience, getting new content. And then of course there are things that come up with current events. So, we taxonomists are talking, “oh, we all had to add terms for COVID-19 and coronavirus and all that stuff.” Jorge: Right! And I'm sure that a situation like the pandemic that we're in the midst of still brings new terms like you're mentioning now. But it also changes the weighing of existing terms, right? So, I'm thinking of the word “mask,” which has acquired a whole new layer of meanings. Some of them even political, surprisingly, right? And that's what I had in mind when I was talking about the constantly evolving nature of language. Heather: Yeah, for some work I'm doing for a client now, and they have a lot of images, they had masks before; they were like Halloween masks. And now they added images, face masks, and I thought, okay, I'm go call this “face mask.” And the other one is just “mask.” The value of taxonomy Jorge: How do organizations know that they need a taxonomy? Heather: Oh, that's a good question. Of course, you know, some organizations who publish content, it's a little bit more part of what they do. But if it's just any organization and it's just their internal content, they have maybe a enterprise content management system, they may have an intranet, they may use SharePoint, you know, which has some, has search built into it. I'd say. It usually happens that people are realizing that they're having difficulty finding what they want. And, you know, these tools have features built in for taxonomies and maybe the IT department sets it up and they put in some categories, they put in some terms. They're not experts at taxonomies, but they might have some idea of what they want to do. But if it's not working quite well enough and people have seen something better then, and it's part of the user experience, part of getting work done that they want to decide that they want to take this more seriously, take it to the next level. And depending on how big it is, they could hire somebody as a new position, and they can make it part of a position or they could hire a contractor or a consultant to start it and then just continue and maintain it. Jorge: I remember reading in the book on the subject of human-created taxonomies versus automated… I'm not going to call it taxonomies, but like indexing software. I'm wondering, how does someone in a business who is facing this sort of challenge know when to call someone like yourself, who can help them with a taxonomy, versus thinking, “I can go and get a piece of software that does this”? Heather: Well, the software can do the tagging, the indexing, but the taxonomy has to still be created, and that's almost always manual. I mean, there are systems that will suggest terms and they still have to be reviewed, but I don't think they're that good. I mean, you see you put in a little bit of effort to create the taxonomy, and then it goes a long way, because then the indexing and tagging is done with it over time. So, the question is whether that indexing or tagging is going to be done manually or automated. So, that depends on where does that content come from and how much there is and how much it gets added. If you have people who are internally offering content, you can assign them the additional task of tagging to it. If the content is coming externally, especially there's a lot of data from emails or other social media or something there about this, they want to analyze for voice of the customer. And it just lots and lots of content out there. That's when automated makes more sense, or needing to go through… I mean, even a publisher of content, if it's news and it's daily, a lot of content, and that would be automated versus something that's a scholarly journal article. That's… the journal comes out four times a year, and it needs expertise to index that that's done manually. And there can be a combination too. Closing Jorge: For folks who might be interested in following up with you, either for this type of work or for learning about it, what's the best place to reach you? Heather: Well, my business is called Hedden Information, Hedden Information Management, and I have a website http://www.hedden-information.com. But I think people probably remember me most with the name “Accidental Taxonomist.” And so, I have a blog with that name, and I have a subsite of my website with that name. I can be reached that way too. But yeah, one way to get more information, you can visit my blog and my website. I have a lot of links to past published articles and presentations. So, there's a lot of good information there. As I mentioned, if you want to learn more, I do teach online course. It was originally through the continuing education program of a library school that discontinued its continuing education programs. So, I do it on my own and anybody can sign up anytime as an individual. And I do offer discounts for groups who want to take it together. And of course, as my book, I recommend The Accidental Taxonomist and when it's safe to do so, I will give onsite corporate workshops too. I gave my last and most recent one was in December 2019. I hope to take that up again, when it's possible Jorge: Hear, hear! Thank you so much for your time Heather, and for being here on the show. Heather: Yeah, thanks again for inviting me.

In today's episode, we discuss: Identifying your strengths and how to position them How to handle time away from the traditional workforce The importance of shifting your mindset and how important it is when you are putting together your resumé    Rhonda: All right. Well thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to this episode of Divorce Conversations for Women. I'm your host, Rhonda Noordyk. You know there's one common thread facing everyone that's going through or contemplating divorce and that is you don't know what you don't know. So, I want to make sure that I help you ask the tough questions to get the answers that you need. Rhonda: In today's episode, we're going to be diving into the topic of... resumé writing, right? And what do you do if you need to go back into the workforce or you need to up-level your skills to be able to really live the life that you have been wanting to live during or post-divorce. So, this episode is sponsored by Courageous Contemplation. It's our online course. So, if you find yourself contemplating divorce, please check out womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/events. So, I am here today with Dr. Heather Rothbauer-Wanish and she is, not only the owner of Feather Communications, but she's also a professional resumé writer and has been doing this since 2008. So, thank you so much for joining us today. Heather: Thanks, Rhonda. I'm glad to be here. Rhonda: So, tell us a little bit about... Before we dive into the tips that we have for our listeners today, if there are women that are listening, what are some of the things that you've seen as far as trends in resumé writing, basically, and let's let them know that they're not alone. Heather: Okay. Yeah. First of all, you are absolutely not alone. One of the trends that I've really noticed, whether I'm working with somebody that is getting divorced, maybe just stayed home raising kids, and is now entering the workforce, is probably 15 or 20 years ago. It's almost like we tried to hide that information, like, "Oh, I don't want them to know that I wasn't doing anything." Which by the way, we know you were doing a lot of different things, but now we address it. We just flat out address it in the resumé and say, "These five years, two years, whatever it was, here's what I was doing." And I think there's some value to that because people feel like they don't necessarily have to hide it and they can use those skills that they built during that time. Heather: Another trend that, you know, if somebody hasn't looked for a job for a really long time is understanding how the job search works today. It's important to know that resumés go through applicant tracking systems. You're not going to be physically handing your resumé to somebody anymore, so just understanding the different tips and tricks and ideas and being smart about how you're putting together your document to best identify your strengths and your skillset. Rhonda: I love that. And if you are listening, I hope that you find encouragement in that because things have shifted, and even in previous episodes that we've recorded, we've been talking about the importance of flexing. Like, hey, it's not that you have to be working in the nine-to-five jobs anymore in the corporate space. People are really starting to recognize, "Hey, what is it that I'm passionate about? What skills do I bring to the table? Gosh, could I turn that into a business?" Or, "Can I leverage some of those skills in the career space?" So, I love that. Rhonda: I remember... So, in teaching in higher education, I was teaching PowerPoint classes and Microsoft Office classes. And as part of that, I was encouraging my students to put together a resumé because I said, "You know what? The best time to put together a resumé is when you don't need one and you're not stressed- Heather: Exactly. Rhonda: ... and you're not feeling frustrated or bitter toward the employer that maybe had to part ways with you for various reasons." And so, I put as part of that process, I put together mine, and I thought, "Okay, I've got this really great chronological resumé." And the gal who was reviewing it at the college, their professional onsite resumé writer, said, "Yeah, Rhonda, I mean good information, but, man, this is an old-school format." Feeling like we need to put everything in chronological order and put as much as we can on there. And I want to say that I was clustered. But I think just also recognizing, what is it that really, we need to be putting on there and also realizing that we have control over what we put on there or don't put on there. Right? Heather: Exactly. And I always tell people, your resumé is meant to put enough out there that somebody is interested enough to call you for an interview to find out more. It's not your entire life story. It's not every single job that you've ever had since high school. Because people do it. It's not every single thing. It's what's relevant and thinking about what's relevant over a quantity of information is really, really important. And I think once people know that, once they realize that, "Oh, my gosh, you don't have to tell everybody every single thing. I can pick and choose what I want to share?" It changes how you look at the document, too. Rhonda: Yeah, absolutely. Well, so let's dive in a little bit. First of all, I would love for anybody that's listening to know, how do they identify really and document the skills and abilities that they have? How do they pick what cream should rise to the top, if you will? Heather: Well, the first thing I would tell you is that often when I'm working with clients and I say, "Oh, tell me your top three skills," or "Tell me your top few strengths." The typical response is, "Hmm, I don't know. Well, let me think about it." And they don't know. So, I think just getting into the mindset of thinking about, "Hey, what are my strengths?" And so, what I tell people is to look at some job postings. Figure out, "Hey, this job sounds kind of interesting." Don't even worry about the title of the job at this point. Just look at the job description and then look at the skillsets and the responsibilities that they're requiring of that candidate. And I bet you will find that those are some of your skills. Heather: So, it's really important to align your skills and your abilities and what you list on the document towards each job opportunity. A lot of times people will think that they have to reinvent the wheel every single time that they're sending the resumé out. And it's like, you don't have to start from scratch every time, but you might need to tweak some of those words. So just thinking about that, and then the one tip that I have found really, really works, works with myself, you can play a little mind trick on yourself, is instead of thinking about, "What are my skills? What are my strengths? What am I good at?" Shift it in your mind and think from the perspective of, "I wonder what my coworkers would say about me? What does my last job review say about me? What would my best friends say that are my top skills?" Heather: And all of a sudden you come to a place of, "Wow, that person would say I'm organized. I'm a good leader. I get along well with people. I have good communication skills," and all of these skills start tumbling out. So, sometimes it's just kind of thinking about it a little bit differently, too. But it's really, really important that you look at the skills that are required of the jobs and then match those skillsets to your resumé. Rhonda: Yeah, I love that. Well, and are there any assessments, third party assessments that you encourage people to take? Heather: Oh, my gosh, there are so many that are out there. One of the assessments that I'm sure a lot of your listeners have heard of is StrengthFinders. Rhonda: One of my favorites. Heather: Yeah. Mine too. Mine is actually sitting right over there. I think sometimes we think we know what our strengths are, but then when you see it worded from a third party, it's like, "Yeah, that is what I'm good at. That just totally describes me." So that would be one of them that I would recommend for a lot of people. There's also one of the places that I used to work at and we would give our interviewees a DiSC profile. So, D-i-S-C. Again, not that any of these tell you everything about yourself, but it's really nice to find some words that kind of describe your personality style. Heather: So that's another one. There's like three versions of it. They're not like super in-depth, but it gets you started on that path. Rhonda: Yeah. I think the self-awareness piece is huge, right? I mean, if you're somebody who is a D, a very direct person in the D for DiSC, and you're applying for a support role, well, depending on the dynamics and the culture, there might be a little bit of tension there because you're going to want to take charge and get stuff done, versus somebody who's maybe an S or a C, and more of, by nature, more of a support role, loves the analytical detail stuff, maybe a little bit more behind the scenes. Heather: Exactly. Exactly. Rhonda: I love the- Heather: It's funny that you said D because that is mine. And so, it's like sometimes I have to remember, "Okay, this is not the point to bring some of these things up." Or, "This is not a good time for the D part to come out". Yeah. Rhonda: Well, and I think, too, I encourage if you are listening, gosh, look up these assessments. The StrengthFinder is a Gallup poll assessment. It's so awesome. Of the 34 different themes, it's going to give you your top five so you can really start to internalize what you're good at and how you're wired. And then also, for the DiSC profile, I love that, too. And also knowing that, hey, we can flex that because there we'll have our dominant one and then one under stress. So, for me, I'm an "i", influencer, pretty outgoing, all that kind of stuff. Love getting people together. But then when I have to be, I'm a D. When I have to get stuff done or the hammer has to come down, I can be a D. Rhonda: But the nice thing is, once you become very aware of how you are and you can operate consistently in that, the other people around you also know what to expect from you. So, I think it can give you an added sense, from my perspective, an added sense of confidence when you're not only writing your resumé but if you get to the point where you're doing interviews where you can really walk in and say, "Here's who I am. Let's find out if this is a good fit or not." Heather: Right. Exactly. And I think there is something to be said for just being aware of it yourself, and just recognizing some of those traits in other people who, like, "Oh, I can tell from having a conversation with this person, this person is much more of an i, or a C," and you can kind of adjust. Not that you have to change everything, but you can kind of adjust your communication style to align better with that individual also. Rhonda: Yeah. Absolutely. I love that. So yes, so identifying their strengths. So, once they've identified them, how do they document them? Heather: So, your skills and strengths, what I tell people, is like on your resumé at the top, obviously we'll have your name, your contact information, and that sort of thing. Then I typically have a career summary, but immediately after that, so in the top third of the resumé, I put the skills section or the strengths because when you're going through these online applicant tracking systems that companies utilize on websites, you have to make sure it's frontloading the information. Make sure that you're dropping in all of these words at the beginning so that the software likes your document. That's important. Heather: And why would we want to bury our skills and strengths at the bottom anyway? Especially if you haven't been in the traditional workforce for quite a while, let's focus on those strengths and abilities and accomplishments, boom, right up the top, so that somebody is hooked enough that they want to keep reading about you. So, I definitely, definitely, consistently put it in the top third of the resumé. Rhonda: Awesome. And can you just share a little bit about how those systems work for... If you're listening and you're like, "Okay, what is she talking about?" Picking out keywords or whatever. Share with us a little bit about that. Heather: Yeah. So, a lot of people that I work with are 40 and up and they're like, "I don't even know exactly. I don't know what you're talking about." So, what happens is, on company websites instead of paying me or some other HR person to sit there and just sift through a hundred resumés or 200 or whatever, they have software on their website. So as soon as you click Upload, boom, there goes your resumé, like, what happens to it? I always joke, like does it just go into some abyss somewhere? Like what happens? Heather: Well, those companies have the software that as soon as the documents are coming through, it's scanning them and it's scanning them for a word match percentage to the job posting. So, for a lot of these different systems companies can set up, they have to match whatever, 50%. They have to match 60%. Whatever they decide they need. And if your resumé doesn't have enough of those same words in it, you're out. You're out before a human being even gets your document. Heather: So, the point is, is when you're reading an ad online, when you're reading something on Indeed or any of the other job boards, pay attention to the bullet points in the ad. Pay attention to the list where it says, key skills required, or applicants must have... And then there's a bullet list of 10 bullets. Those are the keywords. Those are your skills. And it can be something as simple as, let's say, you decide to put project management as one of your skills, and you read the job posting and it says you must have project leadership abilities. Then put project leadership. Heather: It can just be something as small as that. And I always caution people, within reason, obviously, you can't just throw stuff on there just for the heck of it. Cross your fingers to get through the system because anything that you put on there is fair game for them asking you about it during an interview, and you have to have something to back it up. You can't just say, "Oh, I'm a good project manager," and then they say, "Give me an example." And you're like, "Well, let me think." You have to have an example. So, it's just being smart about using a lot of the same verbiage that they have in their job posting and utilizing that on your document. Rhonda: Awesome. That's awesome. So, we've covered how to identify some of those skills and then really how to position them within the document itself. Talk to us about, for anybody who's listening. So, if you're listening right now and you say, "Hey, I've been away from the workforce for a while in a traditional sense." What is the, I guess, right way and what's the wrong way to address that time away? Heather: One of the things that I've seen a lot lately is, and maybe your listeners are familiar with it, but it's like the sandwich generation. It's the generation of people that are either A) taking care of kids, they're now they're returning to work, or they're taking care of kids and/or also taking care of a relative, an ailing parent or something. So, there's a lot of people that are out of the workforce for a couple of years, maybe 15 years, who knows? Instead of, again, ignoring that and not even addressing it, I will put a simple one-line line item on the document that says, "Stepped away from the traditional workforce from 2010 through 2015 to care for an ailing relative," or, "To provide healthcare for a parent," or whatever. Again, you don't have to go into drastic detail. People know that other people have lives, like things happen. Heather: You have kids. Our parents get sick. You have to take a year off; you have to take two years off. I think what's really changed in the more recent years is that there is a level of understanding that stuff happens, and you might have to step away for a while from the traditional workforce. Does that mean you weren't doing anything? Absolutely not. And so one of the things I'll do is, again, just put that one little sentence on it saying, "Cared for children from 2007 to 2017," and then go back into other things like maybe you were the fundraising chair at your kids' school. Maybe you volunteered at the nursing home 20 hours a week, whatever. Heather: One of the things I always tell people is, just because we're calling it professional history or work history or professional experience, it doesn't mean that it has to be paid work where you're getting a paycheck every other Friday. Like, this experience is experience. So, the volunteerism, put it in there because guess what, that shows you're organized, you can work with different team members, you can organize projects, coordinate things, all of that. So, don't be afraid to put things in there that aren't necessarily kind of that traditional work history. Rhonda: Awesome. Yeah, I think that's really great advice because there is value in those things and I think there has been this level of, "Okay, well, I don't want to lie and say that I was working when I wasn't, but I think there's value in that," and there's usually a good reason. So, what you're saying is, hey, just put it out there. Heather: Yep, exactly. Exactly. Rhonda: I love that. So, we have talked about some of the strengths and how to position those and then, also, how do you handle that time away? I want to take a brief break and then we'll come back and then we're going to talk about shifting your mindset. Okay? So, you want to make sure that you stay tuned for our third and final point together.     Rhonda: So, I am so excited to be able to share with you that today's show has been sponsored by Courageous Contemplations. It is our online course. It is perfect for women that are contemplating, "Should I stay, or should I go?" Right? And so, you have an opportunity to walk through eight modules, privately, without anybody knowing, so you can gather the information that you need to make a good decision. And at the end of that you will have an opportunity to decide, "Hey, do I need more time? Would I love to be able to connect with Rhonda and move forward, or am I just going to wait? And, you know what, maybe I'm going to stay in this relationship." So, if you have an opportunity to check out www.womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/courses, make sure that you visit Courageous Contemplations to learn more.     Rhonda: So, let's jump back in. And, Heather, I want you to share a little bit about the importance of shifting your mindset and how important that is as you're putting together the resumé. Heather: Yes. Oh, this is my favorite topic, Rhonda. Oh, it's my favorite part. Okay. So, when I work with people, they are always concerned that I'm bragging. Oh, my gosh, I'm talking myself up so much. I talked to a lady last week and she said, "Oh, listen to me, talking about all these certifications." And I stopped her. That's probably my D coming out, but I stopped her in her phone call, and I said, "Is this a fact? That you have these three certifications?" And she said, "Well, yeah." And I said, "Then why do you feel bad about it? You're just simply stating a fact." Heather: So that's what I tell my clients, is like, you're not bragging if you're simply stating a fact. If you earned these three awards last year, okay, then it is what it is. You are stating a fact. It's just like saying, "I'm X, Y, Z years old." That's a fact. So, stop thinking about it as if you're bragging or that you're being boastful, because you're not. You're just saying what happened. And the other thing is, if you don't say what happened, if you're concerned that, "Oh, my goodness, I'm going to come across as being conceited and bragging," I guarantee you, I guarantee you that somebody else is putting their stuff on their resumé and they're going to get the interview and you are not, because you are so afraid of sounding like you're being boastful. Heather: If it's a fact, if it happened, put it on there. That's how I look at it. If it's something that actually happened, then why are we concerned about bragging? And, maybe I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to, whenever I've worked with a guy, they don't have that issue. Rhonda: Yeah, you read my mind. That was my follow-up question. Heather: No man that I have ever worked with has ever said, "Oh, my goodness, I probably shouldn't say that because I sound like I'm bragging." Not one in all of these years. So, I don't know, it's ingrained in us as women, whatever it is. But get over it because if it happened, it's a fact, and you're just putting that fact on paper. Rhonda: That's right. So, Heather and I, okay, ladies, are giving you permission, to state the facts and own how awesome you are. Right? Heather: Exactly. Exactly. Rhonda: I'm so glad that you addressed this because you're right. And then don't apologize for it. You've worked hard for the certifications, you worked hard for those awards, you worked hard for the experience and the time that you put in in whatever capacity that is. Let's just own it. Right? Heather: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Exactly. And so, my favorite thing is whenever I coach somebody and they say, "Oh, my gosh, I got my resumé, I would hire myself." That's how you have to think of this. Like, I want to look so awesome that of course people are going to call me. Why wouldn't they? Because I've done all of these things. And I think as the more you do it, you kind of think of that first, you probably will feel a little odd about it. But again, you're just saying what happened. It is what it is. Rhonda: And I think, too, it is hard to take a step back and really, even take an inventory of all the things that we've done, because sometimes in the midst of it, they either don't seem as important or we're emotional about certain aspects of it or whatever. And I remember one time I was talking to a friend; we were actually doing a similar exercise but for a different purpose. And the purpose was to put together a speaker profile and to say, "Okay, what experiences have I had and where have I spoken before?" And stuff like that. Rhonda: And one of the women in there said, "Well, oh, my gosh, I forgot about the fact that I was on the radio once a week for like eight years or whatever. And it was many years ago." And I'm like, "Who cares? You can still put it on there. You don't have to put a date and the fact that..." I mean, but until we went through that prompting exercise, I said, "Let's think about some of these things." And we were like, "That's totally cool." Clearly, I mean, you had something to say. You still have something to say. People recognize that. They invited you to be on their show. We need to highlight that kind of stuff, you know? Heather: Exactly, exactly. And the other thing too, is, when you're thinking about your jobs and taking care of your kids and being out of work for a while, one of the other things I'll hear is like, "Oh, well, I just did this," or, "I just did that." Like stop “justing” yourself. You did this. It's not, "Oh, I just stayed home with three kids for 15 years." Like, hello. That's a lot of work. So, yeah, don't use... If you catch yourself starting to use the word "just" in your vocabulary, even in your mind, stop doing that because you're minimizing whatever it is that you did accomplish. You're minimizing it to yourself, so you need to stop doing that and get the word "just" out of your vocabulary. Rhonda: Totally. Oh, my gosh. High five. I agree. It's like, yes. And any of us who have stayed home even for a short period of time, know that going to work is a far easier gig. Heather: It's a treat. It's like, I get to go to work. Rhonda: It's a treat. Oh, my gosh, yeah. Totally. Yeah, it's hard work. Right? Heather: Exactly. Rhonda: So, I love where we have been able to take our time together and a couple of things. I always say that the intention with this is to leave women with a couple of tips or tools or thoughts that they didn't have before they hopped onto this podcast. But I also want to keep it in bite-size pieces so they can listen while they're either on the way to work or scrubbing the floor or working out or whatever. And so, it has come time to what I call kind of land the plane, which means I always like to end our podcast episodes with two things. One is your favorite quote related to the work that you do. And then, lastly, a client success story. So, let's start with, what is your favorite quote? Heather: My favorite quote is actually a quote from Thomas Edison, and it says, "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." So, I actually toured his estate in Florida many years ago and I bought his biography and then I saw that quote and I was, "Yes. I love that quote." So that's kind of my motto, absolutely. So, it is work, but the thing is that it's also opportunities, so you need to take advantage of it. Rhonda: Awesome. That's awesome. Love that. And share with us a client success story. Heather: Sure. So, I worked with a lady that, she lives in the local area to me, so Northwestern Wisconsin where the weather is potentially less than desirable about six months out of the year. And she had gone through a divorce, she had raised her kids, and she was looking to get back into the workforce. She was very timid and almost afraid, again, of sharing her successes. And so, I worked with her, we went through this whole resumé process, building it from scratch because she didn't have one, she didn't need one. And to make a long story short, she actually got a new job and she now lives in California. So, she moved, which I think I should probably visit her, like in January. But, anyway... Rhonda: That's a good business right off. Right? Woo-Hoo. Heather: I know. I know. Yeah. But anyway, I mean, that changed her life. She moved. So, it had a really big impact. And if I even had a tiny bit of that, I love it. I absolutely love it. Rhonda: Oh, I love that story. And I think the thing that I was thinking of, that the whole essence of this is, yeah, it's about having something practical and tangible at the end of this process, but it's confidence. Heather: Mm-hmm. That's right. Exactly. Rhonda: I mean, you are a professional resumé writer and confidence builder, right? Those two things together are so important. And I know that as women have gone through divorce or going through divorce, I mean, the one thing that gets probably impacted the most is their confidence for a variety of different reasons. And so, if you're listening to this podcast, I want to encourage you to take that step and start doing some of the things that we talked about in this episode to move you in the right direction of rebuilding your confidence, taking some time to become aware of what are your strengths and what am I good at and shifting your mindset. And then certainly, we'll include Heather's contact information in the show notes, Heather, and they can reach out to you for some additional support. Rhonda: I know that you have a special offer here, which I'm super excited about. And so, for anybody that is listening, Heather has graciously offered to do a free resumé review. This is awesome. Thank you. Heather: You're welcome. Rhonda: So you can send your resumé to her, she'll provide you some information, tips and improvements so that you can move forward with your job search, and Heather's website …you know why don't you go ahead and share with us the website or the best way for them to contact you for the review. Heather: Sure. So, my website is feather. So, it rhymes with Heather, but, feather-communications.com, and there is the hyphen between feather and communications. But my email address is on there, my phone number, they can connect with me. I have a Facebook business page as well if they want to send their resumé. I love giving people advice. And so, if your resumé is one year old, six months old or 16 years old, I don't care. Send it to me, I will look at it and say, "Here's some ideas for you, make the changes that you want." We can talk further if you want, but either way, I want to give them helpful, concrete tips so that they can move forward. Rhonda: Thank you. It's women like you that I'm so grateful that we have in our community. It's like, "Hey, I'm going to give first and I know that women need what it is I have to offer and I'm willing to help them." So, thank you. Heather: Sure. Absolutely. Rhonda: Thank you for being one of our guests on the Divorce Conversations for Women podcast. And today's show has been sponsored by Courageous Contemplations, our online course. So, if you find yourself contemplating divorce, please check out www.womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/courses. Thank you for listening to this episode. I'd love for you to be part of the conversation. So simply comment on this episode, drop us a review on iTunes or get involved anytime at womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com. I'm Rhonda Noordyk, and I hope you know what you don't know about divorce. ________________________________________ Contact Information and Other Resources Our guest today was Dr. Heather Rothbauer-Wanish Dr. Heather Rothbauer-Wanish has a BBA in management from the University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire, an MBA from Lakeland College, and a Ph.D. in Organization and Management from Capella University. She LOVES helping people position themselves for today's job market. She can help boost your confidence by creating a resumé that helps you land your DREAM JOB.   Dr. Heather Rothbauer-Wanish PhD, MBA, and a Certified Professional Resumé Writer Owner and Founder | Feather Communications heather@feather-communications.com | (715) 559-6378 Facebook | LinkedIn | YouTube   Resources Mentioned: StrengthsFinder DiSC Assessment ____________________ Our host of Divorce Conversations for Women Podcast is Rhonda Noordyk, CFEI Rhonda Noordyk's relentless pursuit of financial justice for women going through divorce drove her to leave the financial industry in 2014 to open The Women's Financial Wellness Center. She was in search of a better way. She used her knowledge, passion, and experience to build a leading-edge business model. The intention was to create a business that provided a safe place for women - especially those in a vulnerable position - to find their paths, find their voices and find the financial confidence they need to lift themselves out of seemingly hopeless situations. Since starting the Women’s Financial Wellness Center, after a 10+ year career in the financial industry, she has helped alleviate financial vulnerability for thousands of women. ​In addition to being the Founder & CEO of The Women’s Financial Wellness Center, Rhonda is also a professional speaker. While her platform is women’s money wellness, it is not just about money. Her topics include: assertive communication, boundaries, leadership and overcoming financial myths. Her speaking experience includes: GE Healthcare, UWM Women’s Leadership Conference and Marquette Law School. In addition, she has appeared on Fox6 News, Real Milwaukee, and Morning Blend. Her dynamic and inspirational style leaves women with a sense of empowerment.   Rhonda Noordyk, CFEI  CEO | The Women's Financial Wellness Center rhonda@wfwcllc.com | (262) 522-1502 Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube Schedule a FREE 30-Minute Phone Call ____________________ Sponsored by: Courageous Contemplation (online course) ____________________ Visit the Women’s Financial Wellness Center for a full directory listing of experts. Be sure to reach out if you would like to connect personally with the Women’s Financial Wellness Center. You can visit our website or grab a complimentary 30-minute consult. Leaving a positive podcast review is hugely important: they help the podcast get discovered by new people. Please spend 5 minutes of your time to leave a review on your preferred listening platform, we’d love to hear from you!  

Some people love being in front of a camera. But most of us don't. This episode of The 4 am Report talks about why you should consider making your face part of your marketing plan. If you're a small biz owner or an entrepreneur, your face is very much tied to your brand. And often one of your best marketing tools.  In this episode of The 4 am Report, we talk to Heather Davidson-Meyn, owner of Fun Love Photography, about why personalized custom images can make your brand stand out from the competition. We're not telling you to ditch the stock photography, charts, graphs and other important design elements you use in your marketing. But we are very certain that you're missing a great opportunity to showcase some personality and make a more lasting impression people will remember.   We speak from experience: Exhibit A: And… Exhibit B: Past images used to promote our material. Long story short: They worked and we got noticed. Here's an excerpt from the transcript: Susan: So Heather, let's talk that out a little bit. A key factor that stops many of us as small businesses from putting our faces on our marketing material is mindset. So, from your experience working with many small business owners, why is this? Why are they so hesitant to put themselves sort of front and center in their marketing? Heather: Well, there's a couple of places the hesitation comes from. First of all, not knowing. Not knowing the "how" and the "what," exactly. What images do you need to create, and how do you create them? Where do you go? When do you do it? How do you represent yourself? Secondly, is the whole thing about feeling vulnerable and unsure and not feeling camera ready, whether it be your hair and makeup, your wardrobe, or bigger things like feeling like you need to lose ten pounds. Susan: Yeah, I can certainly understand all of those factors. My own journey has been at first I was like, "I'm certainly not getting on video." And then we did video, which was highly produced in which it was shot ahead of time, and we were lit perfectly, and that kind of stuff. And then now we've gotten to a place where we're quite comfortable hopping onto a Facebook Live or a LinkedIn Live, and just doing that from a video perspective. And we applied the same sort of thing obviously to our shops, as well, that we've taken along the way. And I can certainly speak to the fact that getting a hold of your head space and your mindset was a big part of that. Heather: Yeah, for sure. Will: I wanted to talk about going beyond just the head shot. Of course. Yes, head shots are great. There's a purpose for them, but let's remember the one thing that makes you and your marketing stand out is that it comes from you. So you are part of that UVP. So Heather, if marketers and small business owners are out there listening, getting kind of inspired by what we're talking about and considering investing in some interesting photography to accompany their marketing. Can you give us some ideas to help get creative juices flowing? Heather: Yeah, for sure. I start the planning process with every single one of my clients with five main images in mind. Not all will apply to everyone, but they're all important to consider. So first of all, there's you. Who are you? That that could be your basic head shot. What do you look like? Can you be recognized on the street? The second one is you doing what you do. So this is just a representation of you doing what you do. If you're a maker, if you're making something; if you're a consultant, this is working with people, reading up on the latest books that apply to your field. Third is you with your products. So again, this is more intuitive for someone who's making products. Maybe you're a seamstress, you're sewing clothes, then you have product, or you're writing books. You're an author, you with your books. And sometimes it's more challenging if you're a consultant helping people with services. It's more difficult to represent, but we can still definitely show you in a way that shows what you produce. Fourth is you working with clients. Now, as I said, not everything applies to everyone. You may not actually work one-on one-with clients, but it's still important to show that you can relate to people, and it helps people to see you working with people, so that they feel like they can relate to you as well. And then finally, you being you. So, this is a little bit more personal and not necessarily completely tied to your business, but it helps people relate to you as a person. And that's a lot of what this is all about. Showing your face, showing who you are, and giving something for the people out there on the internet who are seeing your photos on your website. Something for them to relate to. So, if you love taking walks, or you're an outdoors sort of person, or maybe you love drinking coffee, or doing yoga, or whatever it is you do, it's important to put that out there as well. Now, a lot of people might struggle with envisioning how to turn these ideas into images, but a great photographer will guide you along the process, taking the time to learn about who you are, what you do, what you represent, and who the target client is that you're actually trying to reach, and helping you represent that visually. Susan: Thank you, Heather. That's such a great framework of what people should be looking to shoot on a small business level, and we like to keep our episodes focused to a specific audience, but sometimes the lessons that we're talking about apply for a spectrum of people. About Heather: Heather is an internationally renowned portrait artist who uses the camera to create images that show the beauty of a person, both inside and out. She photographs families (because who doesn't want to work with children and pets), as well as small business owners looking to elevate their brand presence with custom and personalized images. Connect Website Facebook: @funlovephotography Instagram: @funlovephotography and @your_brand_photography *** Still can't sleep? We would also love to know what's keeping you up at night! Email us your problems - your issue might be featured in our next episode! Any of these problems *speak* to you? Click here to subscribe in iTunes to hear about more things that haunt us or to keep an eye out for any of your problems. We might find a solution for you (or at least share your pain too!) 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Carey: In this interview with Heather Cox, we talk about what the younger generations want and expect from brands on social media. I always enjoy speaking with Heather about her business because she's super passionate about her work, and sharing her art of photograph editing. Two of the biggest take aways I had from our conversation are first, the importance of aesthetic, and what a thoughtful aesthetic can do to catch the attention, just what we're all trying to do, engage people, and excite this younger generation. And two, building audiences. Many times, brands find themselves just putting up content before they think about who they're speaking to about what they have to offer or share. It's kind of like sitting down with your grandmother and saying, "Hey, dude, what's up?" You would never do that. Carey: By Heather building her audiences and Instagram, she can then target them effectively to get them to stop, to look, and hear what she has to share. And then she keeps on building new audiences to broaden her customer base. Hope you enjoy. Carey: Hello, everyone, welcome to episode four, the younger generations, and what they want and expect from brands on social media. And today, we have Heather Cox. She's owner of Aglow Presets. And she absolutely has a love for photography her entire life. She believes, and she helps people optimize and enjoy pictures, and helps them use them and their modern qualities as a way to really create memories, which is what everyone loves to do. At least when they don't do it, they realize when they do create memories through pictures, how much everyone appreciates it. Carey: And then enhancing them with presets is really what she specializes in, to help pictures look their best. And not only does she get joy out of taking pictures, but it's her main passion of editing them, which is not easy for everybody. She has three kids, she owns this wonderful business that's just taking off, and she really wants to help people make a lasting impression, help people and their businesses take their images really to the next level. So, many of you may not have heard of presets before. So, that's really what her ... Not invention, but her own artistic way of creating presets, and that's what we're going to talk about today. Carey: So, Heather, thank you so much for being here. Heather: Thank you for having me. Carey: So, let's get started. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, and your company Aglow Presets? Heather: Yes. Hey. So, I'm actually a speech therapist, but I have always had a love of photography and editing pictures. So, a little over a year ago, I created a company called Aglow Presets, where I create different filters for pictures in the Adobe Lightroom program. So, for people that don't know what a preset it, it's basically a pre-made filter that is made in the Adobe Lightroom program. A lot of people are familiar with Adobe. Each preset contains a specific combination of really high quality edits. You can edit every single color, 100 one way, 100 the other way. You can edit the lighting, the contrast, there's so many different things you can do to the picture to create that look. So, it kind of ... You save it as a preset. So, with one click, you can transform your pictures, and they can be reapplied to as many photos as you want to use them on. Heather: So, for years, I've just been using standard apps on my phone to edit my pictures. But I never really got the look that I wanted. So, I started researching, and wanted to know what professional photographers use to make their pictures look flawless. So, over the past year, I've created over 55 different presets that really enhance pictures by brightening them, bringing out the different colors, and giving different looks to pictures. Carey: That is awesome. I just learned about presets earlier this year from you, and it really opened my eyes to the possibilities, and so, we share it with businesses because a lot of them don't know. And it really helps that aesthetic that is so important now, especially on Instagram, where it creates this consistency to the wall, and to the pictures in the stories, where even though they might not have the same exact filter on each photo, they go together. Kind of like an outfit. Right? Heather:  Absolutely. 100% yes. Yes. That's why a lot of businesses do use them because when they're displaying products, or even fashion. Any type of business, it's all about the look and catching your eye. So, it really enhances that. Carey:  Yes. That's awesome. So, your customers, with our subject around the younger generation, your customers are the younger generation for the most part, not 100% at all. But they really do migrate toward using presets, which is part of why you focus on Instagram. So, can you tell us what you know about them, and how you think about serving them on Instagram and Etsy with content and communication? Heather: Yes. So, I did find out very quickly that my main audience and my customers for presets are the younger generation, specifically ages 13 to 25. I kind of found out just through my customer base, seeing the girls posting them, and getting insights off of my ads kind of telling me who my audience was. So, and I found that the younger generation really doesn't use Facebook as much as we do, the older generation. And they really are focusing on Instagram these days. Posting pictures, and specifically, posting on their stories. I think that's that age range outlet for their creativity. Heather: So, Etsy has also been great because I think it is user friendly for that generation, too. It has reviews, it's just easy to navigate. So, Etsy has been my main platform, really, for to sell my presets. I do have a website, as well. But I do like to direct most of my traffic to Etsy. But yeah, the younger generation, they really like that kind of instant gratification where they see the pictures pop up right away. And I just think that, for me, Instagram seems the way to go to promote my presets. Carey: For sure. And your traction has shown that that's a great decision, and you enjoy it, and you're so good at it, too, which really helps. So, for people that don't know what Etsy is, I started using Etsy when it very first came out because I'm kind of an artsy person, and it was originated for artists to ... As a platform to share and sell their handmade things. Now, I think they still have that as a central concept to the platform, but there's more on Etsy now than back in the day when it was just artists. But it makes sense that you went there because your craft is an art form, and it allows you to transact on the purchase. Is that kind of what your thinking was by partnering with Etsy, as well? Heather: Yes, correct. Like you said, it's really for handmade. I think they branched out a little bit, where you can have partners that can also create some of your items, too. But yes, it's like a home base for people with creative ideas, and it just was perfect for preset. Carey: It's a very visual platform, too. Kind of like Pinterest, I think. So ... Heather: Agreed. Carey: So, okay. Well, as far as aesthetic, that's people would become more aware this year, and I think in 2018 of what aesthetic even meant. But it's kind of that overall look that couples with your brand. We have a company that is sort of an outdoor flair that we work with that we help them with their social media and their Instagram. And we had a set of presets on there at first that made it look a little bit dark, and we were trying to go kind of after that edgy feel to the aesthetic because they're kind of a rugged outdoorsy kind of company, like I said. And then we decided when someone's outside, they prefer to be outside usually when it's sunny. So, let's brighten it up. So, we switched out the presets to a more bright look. But that's kind of what somewhat of what aesthetic means. Carey: Heather, I'd love your thoughts on that. But we'd also like to know what, if you could share with us, how you've built the aesthetic of your Instagram presence, and how it appeases the younger audience. Heather: Yes, for sure. And aesthetic feed is what everybody wants these days. I get so many questions that, "Please help me make my feed on Instagram more aesthetic." So, it's really, like you said, it's creating that flow and consistency from picture to picture that makes it appealing. And presets can make your feed very pleasing to the eye, and catch attention to really, like you said, get that flow. And it can be either using the same preset on every picture, or using different presets and just keeping the lighting, like you said, and the brightness the same from picture to picture. Because I know every picture is different, depending on the lighting, like you said, if they're indoor, outdoor pictures. Heather: So, I always encourage my users to tweak each preset to match the picture before so they have that nice flow on their Instagram feed. So, I created a YouTube channel with helpful videos on this topic, and different editing techniques. But my personal feed on Instagram, I like to showcase other people using my presets. So, it's not just me every picture. So, it doesn't look probably ... If I had my own feed, I would have maybe a different look to it of the same thing going on. But the good news is is even though I use all of my customers pictures, for the most part, I do post some that I have posted of myself. But they're all different presets. But the flow still ... My feed still looks aesthetically pleasing because they're all a similar brightness, and presets really bring out clarity. They not only enhance the picture, but they really increase the quality of the picture, as well. A lot of people don't know that. Heather: I recently started editing old photos. It's great for really, really old black and white photos, too, to make the picture even a better quality than it was on looking at it online. But, so, for the most part, it's just ... Yeah. Presets, just the brightness of them, keeping that consistent, and keeping the fairly same color scheme. But yeah, that's what everyone wants because that's ... Business, people sell products from visual. It's so visual these days. Carey: Absolutely. Heather: So, having that look great is going to help any business. Carey: Yes, yes. It's huge. And the older generations now are becoming more accustomed to seeing it. And it's kind of like when ... I think of it sort of as when the old TV quality ... If you see a older football game, back from the '80s, I can't believe how blurry it is. Heather: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yes. Carey: And we looked at that, and that's what our eye was fine with. And then [crosstalk 00:13:50] but now that we have high def ... I don't even know what the terms are for the super duper high definitely ones now. But now our eye is used to that. And I think the concept is similar with presets, that's that we're getting accustomed to seeing that, and that's what our eye is pleased by. But the younger generation, that's really what they demand. The demand, I guess, might be a little- Heather: It's, yeah, all visual. It is all visual, and what looks the best to their eye, for sure. Carey: And then I love ... I just want to comment on the user generated content because we spoke about that in a previous episode around content and building content ahead of time, and what user generated content is. Because some people don't know that. And Heather, you've done an amazing job of maximizing the impact for your customers of user generated content, which means she's using those pictures of what her customers are using with her product, and showcasing that on a daily basis. So, it's a great, great method. So- Heather: Yes. Thank you. Carey: ... speaking of your customers again, you have something you call brand ambassadors. Can you tell us about that, and how this effort helps contribute to your content and engagement? Heather: Yes. I currently have 73 Aglow ambassadors. I have 70 females and three men who help promote my presets. So, really initially, what I would do is ask some of my followers that had big followings and used my presets if they wanted to become ambassador. However, the good news is now I have people reaching out to me every few days if they can be one. So, to be an ambassador, basically I give them free presets and in return, they pretty much promote Aglow Presets for me. They mention me on their feed, they promote me on their stories, their Instagram stories about my presets, if I have a new release, if I'm coming out with a new preset, they tag me. And when they post a picture on Instagram, they'll tag me in it, and they'll post which preset they've used. Heather: So, one of my first ambassadors was a girl at a university near where we live, and that has really in turn, spiraled into a big following, not only from businesses in that town. I have the tanning salon there uses my presets, boutiques there use my presets, as well as a lot of the sorority girls at that college. So, it's really great to have people around. And I have my ambassadors are all over the world. I have one in Ireland, and France, and I have a few in Canada. So, it's really kind of worldwide that they're promoting my presets. And I do, like you said, I love to showcase them on my feed because that not only helps them, they get notoriety from that, and they get to show off their pictures, and they know that all my followers will see it, also. Carey: That's amazing. Heather: So, it's a win win. Carey: Yes. Yes. That's amazing. And it also allows people to see that variety, and people have ... Some of them have children, or you've got some men that are caring about their image and their personal brand, and it kind of gets people looking at the opportunities by showcasing themselves in a really professional and aesthetically attractive way, I guess is the best way to put it. Heather: Yes... Carey:Are brand ambassadors like influencers, would you say? Heather: Some of them are, yes. Some of them are just kind of regular people. But a lot of them are influencers. And so, they have their own kind of gigs going on. But they do this, as well. Carey: Gotcha. Okay. Because some people don't really know the whole world of influencers, or they've heard of it, but now there's something called microinfluencers that have fewer followers. So, for folks out there that aren't so familiar with the influencers world, there are many many many that have become really big, and they have millions of followers, and they charge a pretty penny to couple with brands, and they also tend to be ... Nothing against all influencers by any stretch, but brands sometimes feel a little anxious about working with some of the big ones because they're quite particular, or demanding sometimes is the word they use. I'm not saying that I've never had an influencer. But that's just kind of the world of that now, and the brand world. And so, there's something that has surfaced this year called microinfluencers that have fewer followers, but can be very influential, especially at the local level, or the industry level, and such. So, but that's a whole 'nother conversation. Heather: Interesting, yes... Carey: The one thing you've been really good at, Heather, is to continually using ads and promotions. So, can you take us through what you think engages the younger customer. For instance, with the language you choose, or the visuals you use in your ads and promotions. Heather: So, yes. Yeah, I typically run around six to eight ads at one time on Instagram. I say I do it on Instagram, I think some of my ads go to Facebook, and some the Facebook and Instagram type areas. But I find that most of my customers do find me through Instagram, through either on the feed, or sponsored ads on the stories. So, I do definitely try to create ads that speak to the younger generation through fun pictures, and bright colors. They like a certain look to a picture, which I found. They like the fun, being at a festival, or more party-type pictures than some of the older generation pictures that we used to use. Heather: So, and also, a majority of my ads are video ads. So, I think this is huge, especially for this generation. Like I said earlier, they want kind of quick, instant gratification. So, using a video, I scan through different presets with simple verbiage, just talking either about a sale going on, or what preset I'm using. And also, the younger generation definitely loves a sale. So, I typically try to include that in some of my promotions. But yeah, they really just ... The videos, and using just kind of short verbiage, I think it really helps. But I use Adobe Rush, which is a video editing program. And it's really simple, and that way, I can just upload it right into my Facebook ads manager. Heather: But yes, when someone's scrolling through a feed, I think they just really want ... They don't want to have to scroll picture to picture, but just if you have a quick, short video showcasing your products, I have found that's the way to go for my ads particularly. Carey: Yes. My youngest is 17. So, he's not 13 anymore, or anything. But he's always looking at videos, that's it. He doesn't ... I don't know. I'm not sure what he reads outside of school. But yeah, videos are definitely the eye catcher. So, well, when you've built these followers, and attracted new customers ... Your customers are between the ages of ... What ages, Heather? I forget. Heather: Well, 13 to 21 is the most. But I really think I would say 13 to 25, 30 years old. I do have several customers that are older than that. But the main, if I was just to group it in, that's the main group is that younger age- Carey: Yeah, we talked about how there's lots of opportunity with photographers, and chefs, and things like that that aren't using your presets. Heather: Right, for sure! Carey: ... you've done a really great job of defining your audiences inside that key age range that is making daily purchases with you inside your social strategy. And so, how are you building multiple audiences to target and sell your products to? Heather: Well, as far as audiences, this is definitely one area that I continue to learn and I want to grow in. I've taken polls, and asked some of the younger generation what are the things that they search on a daily basis, who do they follow? So, I can create audiences based on their interests. For presets specifically, I know that they're very popular with blogger, influencer-type people, college age girls, sorority girls. I do have a preset called clean and crisp that I market to realtors. I have a lot of boutique owners, realtors, anyone that really needs to showcase a product. So, I try to target as many of those types of people in my audience as I can. But I definitely feel that I have to continually change up my audience to reach a broader group of people. Heather: So, I guess the biggest take away I have for this podcast is just to continually stay on top of the trend, and stay fresh, and just know that there's always something ahead. Carey: Well, that's a great way to close. I love that. That's very inspiring. And you're a perfect example of that, Heather. Whenever I talk to you, you're always trying to think of ways to do things new, and a way to mix it up, and ways to attract new customers, and ways to grow and help people. Make them happy. Because it does make you happy when you're proud of your presence online, and on social media. Carey: So, thank you so much. Can you let everybody know how to get in touch with you, and to check out Aglow Presets? Heather: Yes, thank you so much, too. So, my Instagram handle is @aglowpresets, and I have a website, and it's www.aglowpresets.com. And you can also find me on Etsy, and search me up on YouTube at Aglow Presets. Carey:  Thank you, Heather. That's awesome. Everyone, have a great day. Thank you so much. Heather: Okay, thank you. Carey: You're welcome. Heather:Thanks, Carey. Carey: Thanks for listening to the All Social Y'all Podcast. For free resources and materials, head over to allsocialyall.com. That's allsocial Y-A-L-L.com. Also, we'd love to hear from you. What subject areas would you like to hear about in future episodes? You can share that with us by dropping me a comment on our website, or in Instagram @allsocialyall.  

Hi crystal lovers, this week I'm so excited to be here with the amazing Heather Askinosie of Energy Muse and co-author of Crystal Muse. So, thank you so much for being here with me.   Heather Askinosie: Thank you for having me. I love coming and talking about crystals. Ashley: Well, it's our pleasure to have you. And you know, a lot of people are getting more and more into crystals now. But it just seems like sometimes people feel a little overwhelmed by all the different things that they can do with them. And one thing that I love about your book, the Crystal Muse, is that you make working with crystals so accessible. Heather: Well, thank you. Ashley: Yes. I mean, you make it something that anyone can do. It's not intimidating, you give great instructions. It's like my go-to reference now, and a book I always recommend to our students. There are some things that you talk about in there that I think are so important for keeping your energy body aligned and keeping your energy field clear.  Could you tell us a few of your favorite things that you do with crystals to keep your field clear and aligned? Heather: Well, I think that the fastest way to clear your energy field is to use Selenite because it is, in my opinion, one of the most high vibe crystals that exists on the planet. When I feel a little out of sorts, I'll go lay down on my bed and I'll just lay there with the Selenite on my chest. I kind of let selenite do the work. Sometimes, I might add a thought of, “Please clear my energy and help realign me into my body, into my own inner power.” But it's almost as if light, a column of light, really infuses my body.  I really like the wands, but I also love working with larger pieces of Selenite too. Sometimes it's as simple as just having something to hold on to, you know? I think it's easy to forget that. Crystals are our tools, and Selenite is a really, really powerful tool. So I feel like if you're going to have something in your crystal tool chest, Selenite would be my top recommendation. Ashley: Yes, yes. Heather: So, do you think that too? Ashley: Oh, absolutely. This is one of my favorite tools to work with. I love the larger pieces too. And you know what? I don't always think the size matters so much. But there's something that just-- it's just that physical heft of it, that weight of it that just really gets into your body and gets connected. Heather: I agree. How much do you think intention plays a role in this work? You said that you like to place the Selenite on your body and just say to yourself that you're intending to be more aligned. How much do you think that plays a role in what's happening for someone? Because you said on the other hand, you just allow the crystal to do the work. Heather: Yes. I think it's a dance, and sometimes there's times where I'm at a place where I can really go there and be like, you know what, it's time to get centered and it's time to be aligned. And then there's other times where I'm not at that place, when it's been one of those days and I've had whatever with my family or with work or what-- just life. It's just a journey. Those days, I'm just like, I've got to just put it on and be like, “Help me.” So, some days I definitely think intention plays an amazing role in our lives, because where intention goes and where our thoughts go is where energy goes. But there are times where I just need a crystal friend to lay on me and just help me get back to that point. Our award-winning Crystal Healing Certification Program is coming soon...   Ashley: So true. Heather: So, that's how I work with them. Ashley: You've mentioned that you have days that are a little bit rough where you just have to have a crystal do the work and help you out. I know that from personal experience and from working with people all over the world, that we tend to all have those days. Most people agree that it's because there are these energetic co...

Are you looking for a new podcast or two? Have you ever wondered which podcasts are favorites for Gabriel and Heather? Well look no further… in this episode, Heather and Gabriel share some of their top picks.

Description: Heather Craik shares with us some pitfalls of dating as a single mom, with some pretty crazy results. Plus a food that fills you up from the inside outHi everybody, I'm Barbara Fernandez, the Rocking Raw Chef, here with my Clean Food, Dirty Stories: one to entertain, the other to inspire.I help people stamp out stress, depression and fatigue over at RockingRawChef.com, and today's title is:How Not To Date As A Single Mom (And Still Find Love Anyway)In addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you the best food to feel full, in other words, to fill you up from the inside out.OK enough hints from me, let's get on with the story.Our guest, Heather CraikI am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Heather Craik. Heather's going to share with us what it can be like to start out life as a single mom, explore dating on Tinder (which like I've never done) and have long distance relationships (which I haven't done either). So all that sounds super interesting to me! She now helps people solve a completely different kind of problem which we'll mention later.For now though, Heather, welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I've been looking forward to having you ever since you told me about your incredible, roller-coaster story!Heather: Hey, thanks for having me. Glad to be here.Me: You're so welcome. So I think if I understood it correctly that your story starts where you were with somebody and you got pregnant? And then you wound up being a single mom? Can you talk about how that came about, maybe?Heather's storyHeather: Yeah, sure. I mean I'd been with this guy for about nine years or so and that's an entirely different story in and of itself. But what happened was I was in Canada when I fell pregnant. And because I wasn't expecting to fall pregnant in Canada, I didn't actually have medical coverage for that. So I came back home to the UK which is where I'm from. And you know a couple of months after that I realized that it was really not working out with this other guy.Me: The nine year guy.Heather: So that was just a bit entertaining for a while. I broke it off with him and went through the rest of my pregnancy, it was just me. My parents were there which was really helpful. But I was about 5 months pregnant I reckon when it ended.Me: That is so, I have to say that is just so, so brave! Oh my goodness. Like how did you...how did you feel like when you... I mean, yeah, how did you feel? I can imagine – I can't imagine, I mean I've been pregnant, I have two kids. But how did you feel when you just like made that, made that decision, you know? To...Heather: Well I think leading up to it was quite stressful. And I noticed that before the decision was actually made, I felt stressed for a lot of days, but once it was done and it was over I actually felt relieved. Which I think was really telling.Me: Wow. That's really telling. Especially like the situation you were in, right? Cause I know that for me, when I was pregnant in some ways I felt kind of vulnerable, you know? Because you're carrying this childHeather: Oh yeah, entirely. I was back staying with my parents even. So yeah. But they were great, by the way. My parents were fantastic from the word go.Me: Oh wow, that's really good. Well I'm sure that at the end of the day they just really want you to be happy, right?Heather: Yeah, they're really good that way.Rebuilding a businessMe: So then you started out as a single mom, so was your son born when you were still living with your parents? I mean, were you working at all?Heather: Yeah, I was still with my parents for about 10 months after he was born, actually. So I was working, I had started work on my business at that point but it hadn't really fully taken off. I had my business before I fell pregnant, let's just clear that up. But then it sort of, you know, the whole moving country and then being very pregnant and then having a very small child, it had fallen by the wayside. So I had to kind of build that back up again.Me: Yeah. Wow. I can't even imagine, like, I don't know, I started...I started my business when my kids were like 10 and 12 or something like that. But I think I was so traumatized when my son was born, my first child, that I don't think I could have had any head for business at all. It was like...Heather: Oh I tell you what, pregnancy brain is such a real thing though. You don't realize it, but probably the last couple of months of my pregnancy and for three months after I couldn't focus on my work at all. I would try, I would sit down in this dazed fog and try to code and it just did not work.Me: Wow, I guess because...that would be an interesting topic in and of itself, right? Pregnancy brain and why it happens and everything. I mean you've got another being with you, right? That's, that could be...that's the first thing that comes to my mind. That must have been really hard. But at least your parents were there to help out, right? I imagine when your son was born, then...Heather: Yeah, I didn't have to cook for the longest time! That was hugely helpful!Me: Oh! Heaven! (laughs)Heather: I know! I do miss that!Time to start dating againMe: Yeah! So then how old was...cause I know that at some point you did...you did want to start dating again. How old was your son when you were like, 'OK, I'm gonna just, you know...'Heather: I think just over a year, actually.Me: And was there anything that happened? Any specific, I don't know, moment or incident that caused you to think, 'OK I'm ready to date now'? I mean, it's a pretty big decision, right?Heather: Honestly, it had been a very long time for me since I'd had any...you know, any of that wonderful sex stuff. Me: Any action. Yeah, of course!Heather: And it was getting to that point...I had moved out which was, you know, helpful. So I'd moved out and had my own place and my son was more settled, he started to sleep better at night which was a real help. Yeah, that was pretty much what led up to it.Me: Wow. And then so you said that you started finding people...How did you start finding people? I'll let you talk about it!Trials of TinderHeather: Well since I pretty much live online anyway, I automatically gravitated over to dating sites. You know, I'd been hearing a lot about Tinder because I'm of that age group that they obviously target for that kind of thing. So I thought 'OK whatever, I'll have a look'. I wasn't expecting to find anybody but I thought whatever, it would be worth a laugh at least.Me: So then like sorry, for people who don't know what Tinder is, can you say a little bit about like how it works?Heather: OK well basically, what Tinder is, it's an app first and foremost. It links into your Facebook but it doesn't post to your Facebook. It just pulls information from there. And you know, you get these photos that come up and you either swipe right if you'd like to talk to them or swipe left if you don't want anything to do with them. Me: Yup (laughs).Heather: So what happens is if you swipe right and someone else, like the one you just swiped right on also swipes right, then you can start a conversation.Me: Right. Kind of like shopping, I guess.Heather: Kinda sorta. You already have that 'OK well we both agreed we like something about you'. You get that. By its nature it can be quite shallow, but there actually are descriptions and bios as well. People don't actually read them...Me: That was my other question as well. Cause if you swipe...So do you have the description under the picture that you can read before you swipe? Or do you only swipe based on...Heather: Yeah, you can see it under the picture. You just have to click and you can read it. Not everyone does.Me: Of course, yeah I can imagine. Interesting people...or notSo you met some pretty interesting people on Tinder, right? I believe there's a little story there...Heather: Oh, yes, did I ever!There were a few interesting ones I will grant you, but the one that still sticks in my head was this one guy. And I don't remember his name, I don't even really remember what he looks like, but I remember he was quite reasonable at first. So obviously we'd both swiped to the right to talk, whatever. We'd exchanged a couple of messages and then pretty much off the bat he was like, “Well I like Lego”. As one of his interests. And I was like “OK, well Lego's pretty cool, fine.” And then he comes back with, “No, no, I really like Lego”. Before I had a chance to respond to that, he follows up with this other message saying that he likes to put it in certain places and I'm afraid that I was out. All done. No way!Me: Oh no, that's too weird (laughs). Did you actually like meet live with anybody on Tinder?Heather: I did actually meet live with one of them and honestly it was probably one of the more shallow ones. It was just one of those 'hey he looked good I looked good'. Fine. We'll meet up. And he was a nice guy, still is a nice guy. Not the brightest tool in the shed, but yeah, we did meet up and we did engage in some activites and that was fine. But not particulary fulfilling, I would say.Is Tinder worth it?Me: Yeah. So is your conclusion that it's probably good for the shallow stuff but not much more? Is that what you would say?Heather: I reckon it probably could work for people that had a bit more time. There were certainly some interesting people there that I reckon if you'd gone out and spoken to them in a coffee type setting that might have been OK. But a lot of people do just go on and use it for shallow whatevers.Me: Yeah. So then, how long did you kind of like play around with Tinder before you went on to somebody else that...yeah? (laughs)Heather: Probably around a month and a half or two months, I was just bored by that point. And you're having to keep up all these other conversations too. It seems sort of mean to be like 'OK I'm not that interested' but at the same time...not that interested.Me: Yeah, and it's time and everything that you're taking up, right?Enter the former loverSo then how did the former lover come into the picture?Heather: Ah, well you see he was one of those people that we never went particularly far emotionally. That was just never our thing. But we had been lovers obviously on and off. And he...I'm not sure how that started again actually, I think what happened was we started talking again cause we were phasing in and out of each other's lives anyway. We started talking again and it was just one of those 'hey OK, so do you just want to come over' type things. I think I actually started out telling him that nothing was gonna happen, and that was obviously not what actually happened.Me: I had somebody like that too. It was actually quite handy, it was because I used to be a singing waitress and a singing coat check girl in this like fancy French restaurant place. Very, totally random and there were lots of different bands that came through and there was a guy like that. You know, we had a kind of understanding that if, you know, if we were in the mood for just something superficial, we'd just, you know, it's fine.Heather: Yeah, and it's not like you don't care, it's just never ever gonna be anything else.Me: And then I feel like, you know, well I think there's a place for that right? If that's what you want and that's what they want, I mean why not, right?Heather: Yeah, I mean it worked out pretty well for that.A long distance relationshipMe: And then you said that after that you somehow then found yourself in a long distance relationship, I mean how did that happen?Heather: Yes, I kinda did. So this guy was somebody that I'd met in Canada about 6 years prior, nothing ever happened there. He was friends to us both but we'd sort of lost contact for a while. We hadn't really seen each other for a while. We started talking again, it must have been a couple months after Gabriel turned one, so it must have been September probably that we started talking again. I was minding my own business, not looking for anything in particular. And he just admits that he likes me, and I'm like “Oh, OK” because I'd always sort of had a thing for him too. So we did that and then it just went boom. Right time. We gave it a go.Me: And then how did you...but you said it was long distance, so like how did that work? Did you like Skype each other?Heather: What we used to do was we would talk a lot on Facebook messenger because that was the quickest and easiest way. But he would also video call. Like after a few months we realized that worked a bit better. He would hop on video and we'd talk. Which, you know, it was fine when my kid was asleep.If he isn't a kid kind of guy...But for whatever reason my sweet, darling toddler that loves everybody hated when I was on video with this guy. He was fine with video with other people even. Hated it. Tantrum after about 10 minutes, did not like it.Me: I wonder why.Heather: Yeah, I mean to be fair, this guy didn't particularly like him either. He tried, but he wasn't ever a kids type person and you know he really didn't like my ex either which didn't help matters because honestly...they're related, so...Me: Oh, your son and your ex, yeah.Heather: Yeah. So, yeah, that didn't go very well. He did make an honest effort but that's not really something you can make an honest effort on. Which is kind of why we ended up splitting actually. It was that and the distance. Because I realized that I didn't want to move back to Canada and he had realized that he didn't want to move either.Me: So how long were you in that kind of situation with him before you were like 'oh well this isn't really gonna go anywhere'.Heather: Well I think probably that entire relationship lasted about 5 months. It was about a month or two of 'OK what are we gonna do about this' so that wasn't particularly fun. And then it became really obvious at the end that it was just never gonna change really. I did entertain the thought of moving for a little while. And I know that he tried thinking about moving too for a little while, and we just wouldn't have been happy moving, either of us, so.Trying out BumbleMe: You said that once you moved on from the long distance relationship, you mentioned something called Bumble. What's that?Heather: Oh, Bumble, right. So it's kind of like Tinder, but with a very noticeable difference. Only the women can do the first message and you only get 24 hours after you've matched to make that message. And then they get 24 hours to message back, and if no-one does within their time frame, that's it. Unless you pay. Some people pay.Me: And how did you find that compared to Tinder?Heather: Honestly it was very similar, but the people seemed to be looking for deeper connections in general. In general. But there were obviously still plenty of the 'oh hey, I just want a casual something'. That's fine, if that's what you're looking for.Me: And then did you meet a lot of people on Bumble?Heather: There were a few people I spoke to actually, and some of them were quite lovely. And there was one I actually met up with. He was fine, we sort of met up during the day at one point first of all. You know, we got on great, it was OK. I think we went to the park actually, so Gabriel was actually there. He was running about at the park. This other guy was there and it was fine, there was nothing going on. We would up meeting up the next evening. And basically we did the kissing thing and then the other stuff, but oh my God no!Kissing a black holeHow would I describe this delicately? Probably not very well, but I'll describe it anyway. Imagine a black hole and imagine chicken pecks and combine the two. And that was his kissing.Me: Oh, that's horrible!Heather: And the sex itself was not much better.Me: Oh, OK that's actually, that's a really good image. That's a bit scary, it's kind of a bit freaky.Heather: Yeah, you sort of wonder how they get to that age without knowing how to kiss. But anyway.Me: I guess some people do, right? I guess that didn't go anywhere! Heather: That did not!Me: (laughs) And then you said you found yourself in another long distance relationship? Or not a relationship?Heather: Ah, completely accidentally, I had in fact sworn off boys at this point. I was like 'you know what, I don't even care anymore. I'm not doing this dating thing anymore, I'm happy on my own'. Because it had come to that point, right? My business was going well by this point. I was perfectly happy just not looking for somebody. That was me at this point.Me: I mean then did you think...sorry, did you think that...when you say you were perfectly happy not looking for somebody, was it because you thought 'oh there's no point, they're all gonna be a bit crap' or was it because...Heather: There was a bit of that but it was more that I wasn't that fussed about it anymore.When you're perfectly happy on your ownMe: Oh! What happened for you to like be not fussed?Heather: I think it was a combination of the ending of that long distance relationship. Because I had cared quite a bit and then obviously it didn't work for practical reasons. Combined with...I'm gonna call it a sex experience, but it's not...you know the one. And then also combined with I'd reached a point where I really wasn't lacking anything.I think probably the reason I started looking in the first place was that I felt this longing for a connection, right? But by that point I was actually OK on my own. I didn't need that to validate me anymore.Me: So the interesting thing I find about that is that there are so many people who try to get to that point through conscious effort, right? For example they think to themselves, 'oh I keep reaching out to others for connection and I'm kind of just fed up because nothing's working. I'm just gonna be by myself and do a lot of introspection'. And stuff like that. Whereas with you...Like in other words, they try to get to that point by working on themselves in a very conscious way. Whereas with you it sounds like it was a very kind of like organic process.Heather: It was completely accidental! I was just doing my own thing.Me: Did it have anything to do with your business doing well? Because I know you did say at one point that it was quite hard with your business, right? There was a bit of a tough period.Heather: Well yeah, because obviously I had a young child. It's not that easy to juggle with business, especially since I was used to just running it by myself.Being your own personI think that took some getting used to. But no, what happened was over the course of that long distance relationship that lasted about 5 months, my business started to take off and have more traction. My child, very helpfully, started sleeping through the night. I wasn't a sleep-deprived zombie anymore. That was a lot more fun! I started to take better care of myself again and you know what? He was actually quite good for me in that regard because I started to explore being my own person again which was really quite helpful too.Me: Oh I know what you mean.Heather: All that combined so that I found who I was again.Me: I know what you mean, it's kind of...cause I can remember that stage with my own kids. It's kind of like, yeah, you do get your own life back in a sense. I think you put it well to me in an email when you said like a mombie, right? You're walking around with no sleep.Heather: Yeah, up until that point I don't think I had slept more than two hours in a row since he was born. Because his longest period of sleep...And that only happened when he was about a year old maybe, was four hours and then two hours and then two hours and then one. But obviously I was still up. So I got two, two, one and a half if I was lucky...Self-affirmationMe: Oh wow. So then...I was gonna ask you something about that. And then your business started to take off, right? You got more clients and everything? Do you think...cause I don't know about you, but for me I know that when the business stuff starts to go really well, that's a big, a big kind of self-affirmation, in a way.Heather: Yeah, it's like this realization 'oh hey I can make it work. It's doing well, I can do this'. That point that you get to. I'd had it before, but I think with being pregnant and having my kid...There was a part of me that was initially worried that 'oh my gosh, what if I don't ever get this back?' You know? So obviously that had been appeased by that point because I started to see it come back again.Me: So then now where are you at now with that? I mean I know that your business is going well. But do you also like, are you at the point where you have somebody in your life? Or are you at the point where...Heather: Oh yeah, it's actually really funny. It was probably about a week after I got to this realization that I was totally fine. I could just have a business and have my son and maybe go travelling and all this fun stuff....Along comes the right guyAlong comes this guy that I'd been speaking to probably since October. He was a friend of a friend, we'd started talking on Facebook. I think we met once some years ago for like 5 minutes. So we'd been talking and we get along really well. We'd video chat just as friends, whatever. And so somewhere in there he decided to profess his undying love for me which was helpful.Me: Oh, wow.Heather: I'll be fair, I do love him too. We are not together. I am still single because I'm incredibly stubborn and I'm not doing the long distance thing again. But he's actually looking at moving here at some point.Me: Wait, so is he in Canada at the moment?Heather: Yup, he's in Canada as well.Me: Oh! Yeah, you've gotta get those guys out of Canada, right?Heather: Yeah, I'm just gonna need to import somebody.Me: Exactly. Well, just the good one, right? The other guys can stay over there.Heather: Yeah, they can stay as far away as they need too.Me: Just get the good one. Being clear about what you wantMe: So are you...how can I put this? Have you basically just said to him, you know, “I'm not moving, if you want us to be together then this is how it's gonna work. And I need you to come here” kind of thing?Heather: Pretty much, yes. What happened was that I was quite open with the fact that I'm not leaving here. Or that if I did leave from here, it would just be to Europe maybe. You know, fairly local because I don't want to leave my family behind again.Me: Especially with your son and everything, right?Heather: Yeah, and a ten hour flight each way is not ideal.Me: Oh I know, I've done that, yeah!Heather: That's where I came into it. And he was all like, well he was initially all 'No I don't want to move either'. Which was fine because, you know, we weren't dating. But he sort of came round to the idea. I think what happened for him basically is he looked at it and decided, 'Actually I don't have much to keep me really. And I want to be over there with her, so...' That's where he came to it.Me: Wow, so yeah, you'll soon have somebody flying halfway across the world to be with you, which is pretty cool, right? Heather: Yes, it makes a change.Me: Exactly! Rather than you doing all the flying, that's really good.What Heather does nowSo what about...so now I know that with your business and everything, well. I'd love to ask you about what you're doing now because I know for a fact that what you're doing now is super helpful to people like me!Heather: Yeah, OK. So what I do is, I run Designmancy. And basically what I do there is I will take your WordPress site and I can build it, I can repair it, I can train you how to use it. I can fix it...Anything you could possibly need for WordPress, that is what I do. I'm your coder fixer gal, basically.Me: Wow that is really cool. And you take on all different kinds of projects, everything from like building sites to fixing existing sites...Heather: Oh yeah, I mean I am honestly at my happiest when I'm getting to fix bits and pieces of code or getting to build something new. Really I get kind of twitchy if I've not fixed anything for a couple of weeks, so just give me something to do!Me: Oh just give me a call, I've got plenty to fix!Heather: Basically that's how I work.Me: That's really cool. And of course you can do it from anywhere, right?Heather: Well yeah, that's a big help too.Me: That's fantastic! Brilliant! What's your...Oh I'll put the link to your website in the show notes. But for the benefit of people listening, where's the best place for them to find you?Where to find HeatherHeather: OK, probably the best place to find me is designmancy.com. I'll spell it cause it's a bit of a weird word. It's design, I think we all know that bit! And then it's mancy dot com. That's the best place to reach me. Depending on when you get there my site may still just be a 'coming soon' page. Because cobbler's shoes and all that stuff. But it does have this really nice early bird discount, so hop on over!Me: Super! So then I have another question for you. Is that the new design of your website? Because your business is already, you know, going well and making money and stuff, I assume you got your previous clients from a previous website? Is that right?Heather: Well I had had a website there for a while but it was never really that good. I've actually been getting a lot of my clients from Facebook groups and referrals and word of mouth. I've not been using my site as much but it has gotten to the point where I really need it to work. I'm really excited by this actually, I've hired a copywriter to help me. So she's doing all my written content. Obviously I'm doing my website bit but I've got a photographer and all that fun stuff as well. It's coming together really quite nicely and it's exciting!Me: Super! And I do know that it's very cobbler's shoes, right? That, you know, the WordPress site designer whose WordPress site isn't designed yet because you're doing everybody else's, right?Super! Oh thank you so much Heather for being here to share your story with us. I love that, so...Heather: Thank you Barbara, I'm so glad I got to be here and thanks for having me!An ideal food to feel fullMe: You're so welcome! So, I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you one of the best foods to fill you up. It's a great comfort food that's actually good for you. And that food is...oats!Now oats are a very powerful yet often underestimated food. They really do help fill you up and give you energy over long periods. As do chia seeds, which I've spoken about in a previous episode.And the reason I'm mentioning food to feel full is because a lot of us could reach for fulfilment in the arms of someone. Man, woman, whatever. But this food can actually fill you up without reaching for anybody's arms. And then you can still reach for the arms of somebody if you want to!In terms of food to feel full, in one study done in Australia, oats actually ranked at number 3 for a 'satiety index'. Which basically is a number allocated to how good particular foods are at satisfying hunger and contributing to a feeling of fullness. Some researchers have found that eating oats can help reduce appetite as well. So if you make yourself some oatmeal with apples, you'd be giving yourself a double whammy of food to feel full, as it were, because apples are good appetite-reducers too.I'm sure that if you've eaten oats, well you may not be very surprised at that because you've probably experienced feeling pretty full after a bowl of, say, oatmeal or porridge as they say in the UK.Other benefits of oatsDid you know that oats do have a lot of benefits, and one of the benefits is that they're great for your gut? They're high in fiber so they're very helpful for digestion, and some researchers believe that they may even help boost some of the beneficial bacteria in our gut.The other cool thing about oats is that they can be very helpful for lowering cholesterol. The oats bind with cholesterol and therefore help remove excess from your body. I've got personal experience with this because my ex-husband used to be on medication for high cholesterol, until he did two things. The first one was he started eating my food, but also he added in oats at breakfast. Within a year he was off the medication and that was about 10 years ago now. And if anyone comes near him and says the word 'oats', they will get an earful about how oats bind with cholesterol and you know, blah blah blah. He goes on about it(!)But the benefits of oats don't stop there. You don't have to eat them, you can bathe in them! For help with inflamed skin conditions such as eczema, chickenpox or even sunburn, you can add one cup of finely ground oats to your bathwater and let your skin soak up all that goodness.What oats containAs to what oats contain, they have many minerals, such as selenium, magnesium, phosphorus, manganese and zinc. So the phosphorus helps if for example you've got students in your house for example and they're studying for exams and things, phosphorus can help there too.Many people ask if oats contain gluten. It's important to note here that oats of themselves don't actually contain gluten. However, if you are celiac or extremely sensitive to even traces of gluten, you'll want to check the provenance of your oats. Because sometimes they can pick up traces of gluten if they are grown next to a field of gluten-containing grains such as wheat or barley. You can buy packages of oats that are marked gluten-free, they're just a bit more expensive. But you can get them.How to eat oatsAs to how to eat oats, when you're faced with buying oats in the supermarket, you may get a bit confused. There are steel-cut oats, oat groats, rolled oats, Scottish oats... all kinds of oats! I'll link to an article below that spells out the different kinds so that you'll know what to buy without tearing your hair out.Personally I use two kinds. I use oat groats, which are the whole grains. They're great for soaking overnight and making into oat milk, and they're also really good for grinding for making oat flour. I also use rolled oats which are basically hearty flakes. They're oat groats that have been pressed flat and they're great for making energy bites.I've got some recipes that use oats in my 5-Minute Chocolate Heaven ebook, so if you'd like to take a look, I'll post the link below in the show notes. Have YOU got a story to share?Which brings us to the end of this week's story – and if you've got a true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day or enhanced your situation), I'd love to hear from you! Got a question, or a comment?Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn.I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESLink to 5-Minute Chocolate Heaven and other recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/Article on health benefits of oats: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/270680.phpAn easy explanation of the different types of oats: http://www.webmd.com/diet/oatmeal-benefits#1Heather's bio: Heather runs Designmancy, your place for WordPress design, repairs and training, while raising a 2 year old son and generally plotting to take over the world.Heather's website: http://designmancy.comFind Heather on Facebook and Instagram​

“I knew I was having a daughter this time. I was like, ‘I'm going to approach this as the model that I want her to have. I want her to know that she is empowered to make whatever choices she needs to in life and I need to practice that now.'”Though Heather's two birth outcomes were very different, the most inspiring part is what Heather fought for within herself. Heather went from knowing she had a voice and being afraid to use it to knowing her voice and making sure it was heard. In the depths of depression and anxiety, Heather continued to be proactive and choose healing. Through vulnerability, therapy, patient advocacy, medication, and staying attentive to her needs, Heather's second postpartum experience was drastically better than the first. Additional LinksHeather's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Welcome to The VBAC Link, guys. This is Meagan, your host, and today we have our friend Heather. She is from Kentucky and she is sharing her amazing story. One of the highlights of her story that we're going to be talking about is postpartum depression which is something I'm really excited to talk more about because postpartum in general and Heather, maybe you would agree, I feel like it's even more sometimes in preparing for a VBAC because we're so hyper-focused on the birth and having this vaginal birth and avoiding a Cesarean and all of the interventions. I mean, really. We're just so hyper-focused that we forget what comes after. Not just recovery after, but mentally and physically. All of the things, and so I'm really excited that you are going to touch on this today and I already want to thank you for your knowledge because I'm excited to hear what you have to say. Review of the WeekOkay, I have a review of the week and then we're going to go into it. Does that sound good? Heather: Great. Meagan: This is actually a review of The VBAC Link course. This is from Ashley and she says, “TOLAC/VBACs should be treated just like any other birthing person but there is a certain preparation and information that needs to be offered to them and this course covered that. The value is held in your careful recognition of how to best support our clients who are doing a TOLAC.” I'm assuming Ashley is reviewing the doula course in this one. She says, “I cannot praise you two enough for the fear release activity. Honestly, it is something I can apply to even myself before and after birth and even in life in general. Thank you for that. It has already helped three of my VBAC clients.” Even starting right there talking about processing and fear release before going into birth can ultimately help us in our postpartum stages. Heather: Absolutely, yeah. That's a big part of, I think, what I was working through in my second pregnancy. Heather's StoriesMeagan: Okay, well then let's turn the time over to you. Heather: Well thank you so much. I'm really humbled to be here today. I've heard so many amazing stories and I wasn't sure that mine was really amazing enough, but I really just feel so strongly that talking about postpartum depression is important even now, even five years out of recovering still that I just really want to be there to help others who need that light. Meagan: Absolutely. Heather: All right, so I got pregnant with Theo in 2017. We made the decision in March and literally the weekend I had my birth control out, we looked at each other, and bam. We were pregnant. Meagan: Oh no way. Heather: So I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is amazing. Oh my gosh. I'm terrified.” I had no chance to really start processing this. I was still weaning down from my depression medication. I had been in treatment for depression a few years prior. I had been out of it but still on medication. I was feeling good. I was feel pretty stable. I thought going off of my medication was going to be great. So we find ourselves pregnant and oh man, that pregnancy was hard. I was sick. I was exhausted. I'm a performing musician and teacher of music, so I was getting through my days with little kids and getting to gigs and driving and throwing up in the car on the highway. Meagan: Oh, bless your heart. Heather: I'm still processing this whole, “Wow. Our lives are going to change.” I was really excited too, obviously. I was really happy to be starting this but we were really apprehensive heading into that. I was due Christmas Day that year, so starting in November, we started getting serious about birth prep. We did a very comprehensive birth course. I was seeing midwives for my care during that pregnancy and I thought they were just really great. They had the same view I did. I was really happy with the care I was receiving. It was very encouraging and just like, “Whatever it is that you want, we will get this for you.” The hospital I was going to deliver in had nitrous. It had one room with a tub. It had showers in every room. It had obviously the epidural and the IV meds. I felt good about the options, although something inside of me really wanted a more natural kind of experience. I think looking back, I really did want a home birth, but I was scared and it's expensive, so this is the direction that we went in. Our birth prep, like I said, was very comprehensive and on top of that, I was reading books. I was making sure that I was informed in case of a Cesarean. I knew about the cascade of interventions and coping with contractions and stuff. We got to the end of that video class and oh my gosh. So they do this, “Congratulations. You're going to have a baby.” I was just like, “Oh my god.” I was terrified. To be perfectly honest, my husband wasn't much better. It was about another four weeks before I actually went into labor since that moment and it was an exciting time. I got through 39 weeks at work and then I stepped back because as an organist, I wasn't going to be playing the day before my due date. My due date came and went and he didn't come. I was very thankful for that because as an organist, I did not want to have a baby on Christmas Eve. Christmas Day would have been preferable frankly. Meagan: I was going say, did you guys have performances at all? So you took a step back but did you have Christmas stuff at all? Heather: I had backed off by the week before Christmas. Meagan: Oh that's so nice. So you completely stopped. Heather: Yes. So 39 weeks on, I was on maternity leave. I had some Braxton Hicks, nothing really, not moving too much. I got to 40 weeks. My mom came. 40+1, we go for a walk. 40+2 I think is when I had my next appointment with my midwife who was one of the two midwives I had seen in the office and she was the one who actually was still doing hospital deliveries so we were like, “Okay, let's get in to see her a few more times in case I possibly see her,” which I did. We decided to do a stretch and sweep. It kind of went. It was possible. I was pretty high and closed and stuff, but I think the sweep worked. I didn't really experience much from that. My mom was like, “Well, I'm going to go see my sister in the other state,” so we had some space again which was really nice to have. Thursday that week, I go to my massage guys who are also acupuncturists and I was like, “Get this baby out of me.” They were wonderful people. They are not prenatal or anything. One of them is from India and he was like, “So your baby is a little bit over here and is not pushing on your cervix.” He just lightly touched my belly and it was so gentle. Then I had some acupuncture and they left me to chill. Then Friday comes the next day and that evening, I just had a sense. I was like, “Hmm.” I don't know. I was just feeling this. So that night, I went to bed on the couch downstairs. My husband was upstairs. I woke up around 3:00 or 4:00 AM and I'm like, “Yeah. I'm having contractions.” I was like, “Okay, early labor. I've got to rest.” So I went and crawled into bed with my husband and that was just a no-go. It was too painful. I pretty quickly got out of there. Mostly, I would labor bending over, leaning over something. We did lots of different places. I was at home for a good 7-8 hours probably. I was feeling pretty good in early labor there. I just had some food, keeping it light. My husband was packing his bag because of course, he hadn't packed ahead of time. I guess contractions probably started around 4ish. I took a bath. I know you're not supposed to slow them down, but I was like, “I need to rest.” Meagan: This is the thing with taking a bath. I don't want to say full-blown labor like you're not in labor at all, but if it's going to progress, it's going to progress and water's not going to stop it. If your body responds by slowing down and taking a break, that's probably what it needed. Heather: Yeah. It still continued. He would put Netlifx shows on for me. He'd put stuff on for me. I'd be breathing through the contractions. After the bath, I guess shower, then bath. I don't really know. I started having to moan through contractions and they started, “Okay. I'm doing my low breathing. I'm feeling good.” I was feeling like, “Okay. I've been prepared so far.”Around 11:30-noonish, things started changing and I started getting antsy and anxious. Contractions started coming much closer together. It was probably about three minutes apart. They'd been a minute long for hours at that point, so we knew that we were really in labor. I was definitely starting to get that worry, that anxiety going then. It was like, “We're not at the hospital.” We weren't far from the hospital, but I was like, “We need to get there.” I remember I was using the bathroom and laying down was a no-go. The toilet was absolutely excruciating. It was really intense when I hit a contraction. My dear, sweet husband comes and jokingly brings me something to put on that was lacey underwear or something like that. I was like, “You just do this. We need to go.” I was not having any of it at that point.So it was like, “Okay. We're definitely ready to go.” We got in the car probably at about 12:30 and we head to the hospital. Man, the car ride contractions were not fun. I'm going, “Ohhh.” I start going, “We're going to have a baby.” Meagan: All the emotions. Heather: All the emotions. I mean, it was funny but it was also like, I was starting to become a little unhinged there. I had gotten out of my safe, comfortable, “I'm in a space. I'm in a zone.” Looking back on it, I realize now that I was starting to experience back labor. That was still a whole extra level of, “Oh my god. I'm not prepared. This is really intense.”We got there. I insisted on walking the whole way. Meagan: Probably good for you though. Heather: That's what I was thinking. I was like, “I don't want to have interventions. I want to get there as late as possible so I'm going to walk.” Every 30 feet, we were stopping to moan through things. We go to where we think triage check-in is and it's moved because they were doing work. So we were standing there and my husband's calling the midwives to come from across the hall. It was ridiculous, but the midwife was like, “Let's get you a chair.” I didn't really want it, but they could tell that I was in labor. I get to triage and they check me and I was 5 centimeters. I was so excited. I was a first-time mom. I'm halfway there. This is awesome. I'm freaking out though. So I'm freaking out and I'm there and okay. It's time to admit me. I knew my preferences. I knew in my heart what I wanted and I didn't ask for that. Meagan: You can't say it probably right? Heather: Yeah. I thought, “I want a water birth. I want to ask for the tub room, but what if I don't end up doing a water birth and I'm occupying it and I'm taking it from somebody else?” All these I would say people pleaser things came in. I was like, “You know, I want to get in the shower. I want to labor back in the shower,” but I was starting to shake. I was getting scared. I was getting more and more scared and just feeling out of control. So I was just like, “I'm progressed enough. I want an epidural,” even though I knew I didn't really want an epidural. I was having this back labor. I had been laboring for a long time. I was 40+5 and I was tired. You're not sleeping well by that point. The midwife was great. She was supporting me. She was applying back pressure and a lot of tailbone pressure, especially with the back labor and it was really helpful, but I eventually got the epidural. The first one didn't take. They did another one immediately and that one only half worked. They put me on my left side because I could feel my contractions all the way down my left thigh. It was really, really intense. The medicine worked that way. I guess we got some sleep. A few hours later, they come to move me to my right side. A few hours later, they move me so I'm sitting with my legs and knees out. That was all they moved me. I couldn't really move. Over the course of having to move, the epidural definitely started wearing off on my left side again. Then shift change happens around 8:00 PM and the midwife that I had been seeing comes on. I was so happy. I was so happy to have her because she was wonderful. She comes in and the room is dark. She checks me and I'm complete. Well, I'm almost complete. She's like, “there's a bulging bag of water. We could break them and start pushing or hold off on pushing. What do you want to do?” That voice inside again says, “I want to labor down. I want to have some time to really feel the urge to push,” but baby was having some heart irregularities, so I was like, “Well, then let's go ahead and break my waters. We'll start pushing.” Even though in my mind, that really wasn't what I wanted. Meagan: Your intuition it seemed like so far has been saying one thing, but then your voice said something else. Your mind talks you into something else. Heather: Absolutely. I think that's really the motif throughout that whole labor. My intuition was in one way and what I was agreeing to and saying I was okay with was another. My midwife was very great. She wasn't pushy, but having a baby who has nonreassuring heart tones, not dangerous yet was like, “Okay. I've got to consider this as well.” So on one hand, I wasn't thrilled to be accepting breaking my waters, but I wanted to know that he was in a good position. I didn't know it was a he, but I wanted to know that baby was in a good position, but the labor nurses were like, “Oh yeah. Baby's ready. Baby's ready.” Meagan: And you don't really know about back pain at this point. You kind of maybe do because it's half working, but you're not feeling it the way you were feeling it so you couldn't even really identify where he was at. Heather: Yeah, exactly. I'm a first-time mom. Meagan: You don't know what you don't know. Heather: No, you don't. We start pushing and they were pretty good about letting me push on my sides and on my back. They would turn me to my left side and I would push. They would turn me to my right side. I would push. I did a lot of pushing on my back which was probably where the more effective pushing was happening. At this point, my temperature has been climbing so that was one of the reasons why my midwife wanted to break my waters was because my temperature had climbed a bit. She said, “Sometimes with an epidural, that can happen but if it keeps going and it becomes a fever then we know that it's not the epidural and it's an infection.” I'm thinking, “Okay, then we've got to get this baby out.” I'm pushing and an hour goes by. My husband is watching me get sicker and sicker. My temperature finally breaks into a fever around 9:30-9:45 PM. By this point, I definitely have a fever. Baby's heart is not tolerating it well and I've not made much progress in pushing. So my midwife starts consulting with the obstetrician who is overseeing her who comes in and she says, “We need to get this baby out. Our options are C-section and vacuum.” I'm like, “Well, I definitely don't want a C-section.” So she goes off to get ready for the vacuum. Now, she doesn't feel that she can do the vacuum because I guess she had an injury or something so she goes and gets the other obstetrician that night to go and do the vacuum. So they're back ten minutes later. I'm still pushing. I'm still feeling it. My epidural has worn off even more by this point so I'm really feeling the contractions and feeling them build. I'm working with them. I'm feeling like that was a good experience. I appreciated having that knowledge especially when into my second birth. I didn't really know much about a vacuum. I figured, “Oh, it might be assisting in pushing. I'd push a bit.” They'd assist the baby out over a period of time is what I was expecting. After a couple of pushes with the vacuum, the obstetrician who had come on, not the one who was doing the vacuum but the other one, says, “I'd like to do an episiotomy. Is that okay?” I said, “No. I do not want an episiotomy.” We push again. The next contraction after that, she's like, “Okay. I need to do an episiotomy. You're going to tear anyway.” I talked to my husband and I was like, “Okay, fine.” Meagan: Oh, love. I love you and you're not alone where you're like, “Fine. I just want this baby out.” Heather: Yeah. I didn't really understand that that was coercion at the time. Meagan: Yeah, because you are vulnerable. Heather: So vulnerable. I was sick. I had a fever. Meagan: I was going to say that you didn't feel well probably. Heather: No, my husband was seeing me get sicker and sicker like I said. By this point, it's probably about 10:00 PM. I've been pushing for over two hours. I have a fever. I just consented to something that I really didn't want going into it. The next contraction comes and I'm feeling all of this movement down there. I'm thinking, “Oh my god. He's out.” They're like, “Vacuum just popped off for the third time and we can't do it anymore.” I'm like, “What?!”Meagan: At this point, they had done the episiotomy. Heather: Yeah. They hadn't told me that it had popped off at all. I didn't know where we were in that process. Meagan: There was no communication. Heather: There was not that communication. It was just, “You're going to tear anyway.” A certainty. “You're going to have this baby vaginally and you're going to tear so you need an episiotomy.”Meagan: So you made the decision with the understanding that this baby was then going to come. Heather: By that point, we really had no choices. I was pretty sick. I could feel the contractions. I wanted baby out. Meagan: Yeah. You just want it to be over. Heather: My midwife was there the whole time. She helped coordinate getting my husband to the OR. They turned up my medicine. They wheeled me down. She brings him in after they've determined that I'm numb enough which I almost wasn't. This is the OB who cut me and that's who she is. When I talk in conversation about my birth, that's where my mind goes and that's really what was like, “Wow. That was obstetric violence. She cut me.” I just can't process it any other way. She almost put me under because they had to numb me and she thought it was an emergency. In my mind, I'm hearing her say to the anesthesiologist, “If the next time, she's not numbed, we're going to have to put her under.” My mind is going, “No. Don't let me. Tell them no. Tell them you do not consent to go under.” Fortunately, they didn't put me under, but the medicine was high. My husband was there next to me and my midwife was there as a support person. They performed the C-section and my midwife was like, “Do you hear that baby crying? That's your baby.” That was beautiful. It really was. We didn't know the sex, so she brought my husband over to the warmer where he was and he came back. He whispered in my ears, “You have a son,” which was a really beautiful moment too. They bring Theo over and I get to kiss him a little bit. I can't really hold him. I want to ask if I can hold him, but I don't. But I also just needed to sleep at that point. He was born at 10:38 PM and I had been going since 4:00 AM so I was exhausted. They take him away. Apparently, he was having some breathing issues so I sent my husband with him. They went to the nursery together. I want to back up and say though that while we were having this C-section discussion, the one thing I asked for was delayed cord clamping. That was the one thing and the OB said no. In my mind, I'm thinking, “Can I ask for a clear drape? You want a clear drape. Ask for this.” I knew the things that I could ask for. I didn't though. I had already just said no to an episiotomy. I just had one anyway. I had just been told no to delayed cord clamping. I think I was just almost out of fight. Meagan: Well, yeah. Like I was saying earlier, it's to the point where sometimes in labor, we want to use our voice but we can't. We're using it in our heads, but we can't get it out. It's just this weird thing. I could probably see you too just being like, “I give up. Everything I did want, I'm being told no, or the opposite has happened to me.” Heather: Yeah. That was something I really had to process through. Where was that voice? Where was I? Where were we working together and where were we not working together my voice and me? But he goes to the nursery and because I had developed an infection, they wanted to get him an IV and antibiotics as well. He was there for a long time. I was alone in recovery. At that point, I was like, “I just want to sleep.” At one point, my midwife and the obstetrician came in to have a talk afterward. What I remember from that talk was basically like, “You have a small pelvis. You have an incision where you could have a VBAC, but I think your pelvis is too small.” I was just like, “That sounds ridiculous.”Meagan: Yeah. You're like, “I know better. I know better.”Heather: I knew better. I knew better. I knew that was ridiculous. Even in recovery, I felt like I timed out because of the fever more than anything and I timed out also because I didn't have a lot of movement going on. There was no continual positioning during labor. I had been born via C-section. I was OP. That had been in the back of my mind in preparation. I was like, “I'm going to help this baby get into good positions.” I knew the positions to help me. I knew these things and I still ended up with a C-section. The hospital stay, unfortunately, was not better. I finally met him and got to hold him at about 3:00 or 5:00 AM. I'm not sure. It was a really long separation and that was a really hard separation to come to terms with. When he finally came into the room with my husband, we tried breastfeeding and it didn't really work. He didn't latch and then we just went to sleep. The lactation consultants came around the next morning. They were fantastic. We started getting a latch. We diagnosed him with tongue and lip ties. We got those revised and then breastfeeding was off to a much better continuation. The next day, so I went into labor and had him on a Saturday. Sunday was New Year's Eve so we got to look out over the city and see the fireworks. Monday, I had this rash all over my body. We were like, “What is this?” It was particularly around my incision and my belly, but it seemed to be everywhere. We were like, “What is this?” It didn't seem like PUPPPS. It wasn't just in stretch marks. It was like, “Maybe it's the antibiotics.” Meagan: The sutures?Heather: “Maybe it's something you're wearing. Maybe it's the sutures. We don't know.” I had part of my thyroid removed a year prior and I actually had an allergic reaction to the surgical prep. I was like, “Maybe it was the surgical prep.” It wasn't. We don't know what it was but they gave me Benadryl. I was like, “Great.” It made me tired. My baby was constantly trying to breastfeed. I was also on medicine for the infection and pain which was just horrendous. That pain was worse than back labor for me. That was almost the most traumatic was trying to walk the day after. It got better quickly for me. I was very fortunate, but it was really scary getting out of bed the first few times. Like really scary, I was in so much pain. So yeah. The Benadryl didn't really help. The next day, I asked for more because I was still itching and the nurse was like, “It can make your milk dry up.” I was like, “What? I'm not doing that.” We got home eventually and it was just really hard. He very much wanted to be held all of the time. We weren't sleeping. I felt like breastfeeding wasn't going super well. We got to my two-week appointment and I saw my midwife who had been there in the birth and I mean, she was wonderfully empathetic. She was just like, “How are you?” I was like, “I am not well. This is not going well. This has been really hard. He's not gained weight.” She asked me what did we want to do about it? I was really lucky in that the practice and the hospital in general had a licensed clinical social worker attached to it, so I could go to the same place and see this therapist. She was a specialist in postpartum and prenatal counseling and just maternal and child psychology. At two weeks, I was like, “Okay. I want to talk to her.” I went to that probably a week later and I just cried for an hour. I just cried. I talked about the C-section and the episiotomy and about how I was pumping at that point but he wasn't gaining weight and how this was hard. She just listened the whole time. I was like, “Wow. I just cried for an hour.” She was like, “Is that a good thing or a bad thing?” I was like, “I think it is a good thing. I needed this.” Meagan: Sometimes you need those releases. Heather: Yeah, the release was really important. I was seeing a lactation consultant. I was triple feeding so I was feeding, pumping, and supplementing. We get to, I guess, his one-month appointment and he's passed birth weight. He's doing well. I went back to the lactation consultant who was like, “Keep triple feeding.” I was like, “I can't do this,” so I just started to listen to my intuition on that. By that point, yeah. He was gaining weight well. A few weeks later, I go for my six-week appointment and I still was not myself. At that point, I decided to go back on medication. We found something that was breastfeeding-compatible and I felt comfortable doing that. I knew that I needed to take care of myself and that antidepressants were definitely going to be the next step. I would say after I got on antidepressants, I stabilized for a while. There were a good few months there where I was continuing with therapy. We were dealing with a lot of, “Okay. I still have a newborn. I'm still exhausted. I'm adjusting to motherhood,” but just other things in life were coming up. Like I said, I felt like my mood was pretty stable. At about six months postpartum, somebody in my close circle had a pretty decent vaginal birth and I was really happy for her, but oh my gosh. I just fell apart. I dove right back down into depression. I showed up at therapy the next week and I was just like, “I'm so happy for her,” and was just crying. Again, I don't know where this is coming from. That's when we started the next step in processing the trauma. Since my therapist was attached to the hospital system, and since she had the specializations that she did, we were able to go through all of my labor notes. For those appointments, I asked my husband to be there for me as well, so we went together. We went through those over the course of a few sessions. We really dug into some of that. I remember going through the notes around the fever and pushing and I was like, “Yeah. I really did need that C-section.” That definitely helped me take another step forward, but at that time also, my therapist was like, “Just so you know, there are other avenues for discussing this.” That's when she told me about the patient advocate at the hospital. I didn't know about patient advocates, but my therapist was like, “She's really great. She's not just there to prevent lawsuits or malpractice suits. She will be there. She'll be emotionally there for you. You call her and she'll set up a meeting with the doctors and head of obstetrics and neonatology if you want.” So that was something that I decided that I wanted to do. It took me a few weeks definitely because it's still something very close to my heart. It was still very hard. It was just hard to make the call. I think just making space for ourselves when we find ourselves in a place where there's another step forward, but it's still hard. It's just so important. Meagan: It's hard to make those steps. Heather: It is. You can feel like you know it's what you want to do and you can still give yourself the time until it's really right. But I made the call and in September we had the meeting. It turns out that the doctor who had cut me was no longer at the hospital. Meagan: Oh uh-uh. Heather: It may have been because of her attitude. I can neither confirm nor deny, but I did meet with the head of obstetrics who was actually performing the vacuum and assisting in the C-section. That meeting, I went into it and I wanted to ask about the fever. I wanted to ask about the infection like, “How does this happen? Did I do anything? Should I not have taken a bath that morning?” The doctor was like, “These things happen and you can't control them and all we can do is make the best choices that we can make.” And then I brought up with her the episiotomy and I said, “That was not okay. I should not have been pressured into that. This hospital needs to know and the doctors need to know that all around, this was not okay and this should not have happened.”She said that they have trainings and there's one coming up and that she was going to use this scenario in the trainings. That was really powerful for me to hear that they were going to talk about it in whatever way they did. It was really important for me to speak out and say, “This was not okay. This happened. It should not have happened that way,” but then also to have the doctor hear me and agree with me really did help. The meeting was also interesting. She said, “We would be happy to do pre-pregnancy counseling. We could do a VBAC calculator.” I didn't know about that and was like, “Okay.” I also said, “I think this hospital should have more access to clear drapes, and women in my position should be offered these things, not just expected after all of what we've been through to ask for these things. This seems like a basic thing that we can do to be more mother-baby centric.”Meagan: It's minuscule to make such a big impact. It's a minuscule thing that changes someone's experience so much and I love that you brought that up. I love that. Heather: Yeah, so this was back in 2018. I brought that up. I was like, “This could have been and I think this would have helped.” Neonatology was not at that meeting. They were unable to be there, but the head of neonatology did give me a call a few weeks later and she was lovely to talk to. She said, “I was reviewing your notes.” The obstetrician in the patient advocate meeting had not reviewed my notes. I had really hoped that she would have. But neonatology and I went over the notes for Theo and it turns out that he was in more distress than I had believed at birth. I also think that I just was like, “My baby is going to be fine.” Babies have trouble breathing sometimes. That's why we have an umbilical cord. That's why I wanted delayed cord clamping for a little bit of a buffer. But the care that he received was important. She just reaffirmed that getting the mom and baby together is really important from the get-go for us. We do value that and you are right to bring that to our attention, but we will continue this value. I got a lot of closure from all of those meetings. I definitely understood all of the medical things that had gone on better. It didn't solve my depression. I'm still in therapy to this day, but it really helped turn the page. Meagan: Yeah. Heather: So fast forward to about a year ago, December 2021. I had even written that in my notes. I can't do the math. Meagan: The years are blowing by so fast. Heather: It's going by so fast and my daughter is in a sleep regression. It's just great. We were starting to finally feel like we had our feet underneath us. We moved states. We got settled in another place near my parents which has been great and we were like, “Okay. We want to grow our family.” So that December, we decided to start trying, and two weeks later–Meagan: Did you look at each other? Yep.Heather: Yeah. Yeah. Two weeks later. From my last menstrual period, I was three weeks pregnant and I was like, “How am I getting a pregnancy test positive already?” I was terrified. I was like, “What is up with us? We are never taking risks. This is just too freaky.” Yeah. We got pregnant right away. So right away, I'm like, “Oh. But I have all of this trauma that is resurfacing.” My son was born at the end of December which means that the really hard postpartum was right during my first trimester which was hard again. I was very sick. I was resting a lot but it was also a different feel because we were so much better as a team this time. We were so much more open about how we were feeling. We were more excited. We knew that we knew more this time. But it was still an adjustment getting used to being pregnant again. I definitely had some anxiety and I don't usually have much anxiety. Going into my first provider appointment, I was so scared. I really was not looking forward to being in prenatal care again because of my experiences before. So because we got pregnant so fast, I didn't know exactly where I wanted to go, but I knew I wanted midwives again because I just did not feel safe with obstetricians. I went with what ended up being a community clinic for anybody. Anybody can go and it's price-capped, etc. It's a rotating group of people who provide the care. It just so happened that the first time I went there, I met with one of the midwives so I thought, “Okay. I'll be seeing midwives.” I didn't really know how they assigned people. The midwives were good. From the first appointment, she asked me what I wanted to do for birth and I said that I wanted a VBAC. My second appointment a month later, I was like, “But I have really bad tailbone pain, so maybe I do want a repeat Cesarean.” A few months later, I was like, “Nope. I definitely want a VBAC.”I started preparing for it. I did some more courses online learning more about VBAC. That's when I got introduced to the Facebook community, The VBAC Link Facebook Community which was really great. I started really digging into that towards the end of my second trimester. I will say, unlike my first pregnancy, my second trimester was lovely. I really had a good time. I was taking medication for nausea which never went away again, but because I had it managed, I was able to enjoy and move a lot more this time. I did a lot of pregnancy yoga and pilates. That was really lovely. It really helped me feel more in charge and in control of that aspect at least. Towards the end of my second trimester, I was like, “Jake, I really don't want an epidural. I really think that is the whole reason why I had the fever in the first place. What I'm learning now is that epidurals can cause fevers.” What everybody told me back in 2017 was that no, no, no, no. Epidurals don't cause fevers. They might elevate your temperature, but I really don't believe that at this point. I really think it was because of the fever. I knew that my epidural had not been great. I didn't want it. I had back labor. I was like, “We need more support.” We got a doula and she was amazing. I had her by the end of my second trimester going into my third trimester. At the beginning of my third trimester, I went to a prenatal appointment on the regular day that I had been going and this new provider walked in. She said, “So you're going to have a repeat C-section?” I'm like, “No.” She's like, “Okay, well I mean, I have one priority, really two priorities and that's a healthy baby and healthy mom.” I'm like, “Okay, but I signed the trial of labor consent last time.” She's like, “Okay, well as long as you signed it.” It was a horrible discussion. I kept trying to be like, “No. I don't want to talk about that. I've done my research. I'm good.” Meagan: Well and just what she had said there was pretty much saying, “Well, this is my priority and that's the way to get it.” It was that. Heather: It was horrible. She didn't go over my charts. She didn't go over my gestational diabetes screening which I didn't have, fortunately. She didn't go over my TSH levels. She didn't go over anything. She had a hard time finding the baby's heartbeat. I was just like, “Man. Who is this person?” So I went home totally shook. I was not okay. This is not a good provider. I am being bait-and-switched. I called every office in town. I called every office two hours away. Nobody could take me by that point. I was bawling and I was just talking to my doula and I was just like, “I feel like I should drive two hours and show up in labor.” We examined all of the options. Because I hadn't found anybody by the time of my next appointment, I went to my next appointment and my blood pressure was through the roof. It was 150/90 something and I was always fine. This midwife comes in and she's like, “I was looking at your notes. That other provider does not do births. She can't see. She is not indicative of this practice, Heather.” Right off the bat, this midwife was like, “I can see from your blood pressure readings and from what happened last time that this was not okay.”I think I just started crying. I brought my husband that time because I was like, “I'm not going in alone.” So we went. We had a 45-minute to hour-long meeting with her. She was just amazing. She really got me back on track. She was like, “Okay. So here's what we're going to do. At 36 weeks, you're going to start the evening primrose oil. You're going to start doing this. You're going to stretch that. We're going to do stretch and sweeps if you want. If you don't want them, that's okay. If we have to induce, this is what I envision.” I'm like, “Oh my gosh. They'll even induce.” You don't know all of these things and her overall approach was like, “Okay. I'm feeling so much better about this.” So for the remainder of my pregnancy, I pretty much only went in on days when I knew that the other provider would not be there. I started seeing these other two midwives mostly whereas I had seen a third midwife on Wednesdays so I knew a few of the providers. I was like, “Okay.” As we were getting closer and closer, I'm checking back in with my doula and I'm like, “This hospital doesn't have the things that I want. There are only two shower rooms. There are no tubs. There is no nitrous. It's just two medication options, but I don't feel like I can drive. I don't want to be laboring in the car. I want to stay home as long as possible.” But I definitely was starting to feel more comfortable with that decision. Knowing that my husband and I had done the self-work since our first birth, knowing that we had all of this time to really talk through things, knowing that we had a doula, we just felt so much better prepared to advocate and face this. This time around, I did a hospital birth course which included a tour of labor and delivery. I was not prepared for how anxious I got in the labor room. I really was back in that place. Meagan: Triggered, yeah. It triggered you. Heather: I'm heading to the hospital. I'm having a baby. There are going to be interventions. It's not what I want. But we got through it and I just had to take it by faith that I was going to be okay and I was going to be able to stand up for myself. Fast forwarding a little bit, we get to 34, 35, and 36 weeks and I'm just having tons of Braxton Hicks contractions. My job is keeping me on my feet a fair bit teaching little kids music, so I'm wiggling around and every time I'm moving, I'm feeling tightening. I'm like, “Wow. I'm getting ready. This is so amazing.” I was feeling very positive about that. By 35-36 weeks, every night from 10:00 PM on, it was like baby dance and squish hour. So I'm having those tightening Braxton Hicks. Sometimes they were timeable. They were pretty regular. They were not stopping, but I wouldn't call them painful. I was on the link, “What is this? Okay. It's probably prodromal labor.” So I was having that quite a bit. I started at 36 weeks. I started, “Okay. I'm going to do the evening primrose oil,” and boy did that make my uterus angry every time I would do it. I'm like, “I don't know if the midwife really intended this. Maybe I shouldn't do it.” I go to my 36-week appointment. I go to my 37-week appointment and I'm like, “Yeah. This is crazy.” I didn't have any checks by that point. I did have a check, I guess, at 35 weeks when we did the GBS positive swab and I did come back positive. I was so upset. I was like, “Man, I really should have just declined that,” because I wasn't going to change what I was going to do for labor anyway. I had one of the nice midwives check me at that point. She said, “You're soft but you're still pretty high and baby is right there. She moved when I poked her.” I thought that was pretty funny. I'm not sure if my son had ever gotten down that low, honestly. At 38 weeks, we go for a walk. I stopped working. I just had so many contractions. I had been bringing my husband to work with me because I work an hour away. I was like, “I'm not going to drive if I'm contracting. It could literally be any time.” But we had the appointment and the midwife was like, “So Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays are the midwives that are really on board with your birth plan. They're the ones that you really want to see.” I was like, “Awesome.” So Monday night, I'm 38+3 and I do my prenatal yoga, pilates, and birth ball bouncing. It's probably 10ish, 10:00 PM. My husband is like, “Let's get this baby out of you.” He's bouncing me on the ball. We're just being lighthearted and silly and just like, “Okay, whatever.” But that night, I woke up at 3:00 AM which was not unusual having contractions which were not unusual. I get up to pee which is very usual as we all know. At that point in pregnancy, I just could not sleep and my water broke. I went to the bathroom and then I'm still leaking and it was dark. I'm like, “What's going on?” I sit back down on the toilet. I get some light and I'm like, “Oh my gosh. There's vernix in it. This is really my water.” I was so excited. I wasn't really feeling any contractions and I was like, “Of course,” because I'm GBS positive, my water breaks prematurely. Meagan: Your water breaks first. Heather: I was so mad but I was like, “I'm not going yet. This could still be a day or more,” but I started calling my doula and let my husband sleep a little bit longer. I go into the room finally probably at almost 4:00 and I'm like, “My water broke.” He was dead asleep but his face lit up and he was so excited. That's one of those really sweet memories from labor for me was just seeing his face get so excited like, “We're having a baby! We're having a baby!”Another hour and a half goes by. I canceled all of the things that I had to do that day. My parents come to get my son and I had a very tearful goodbye because by this point, I was definitely in labor and I was emotional. I was like, “My baby.” So my parents show up for my son and I'm in the shower. I'm groaning, moaning through things and I'm definitely having back labor. My doula isn't there yet, but we still have a lot of time. Contractions were fairly close by that point, probably 3-4 minutes apart for a solid minute, really, really strong ones. Meagan: Which is common with back labor and posterior babies where it's really, really close. That's really common. Heather: Yeah, I was like, “The shower is great, but you know what would be even better? A bath.” So I drew a bath and I'm emotional. My son is gone and I'm crying to my husband. He's like, “You're going to see him again.” But I'm like, “But he's not going to be my only baby.” The doula shows up and she's like, “Now, is your bath too warm?” I glared at her. I was like, “No. I was a good girl. I didn't make it too warm.” All I wanted was to be in the sauna. But I get out. I was like, “Okay. It is time to go to the hospital. I'm facing that reality. I'm going to have to go to the hospital now.” So I used the bathroom and I'm on the toilet. Oh man, once again it was just so painful being on the toilet. I start feeling my body push. I'm like, “Okay. We need to go.” So we were packed up. I put on a robe and underwear and nothing else. Meagan: That's great. Heather: We show up in August to the hospital in the south and I'm in my not regular robe, like a fuzzy robe. Meagan: Like fuzzy warm? Heather: Yeah, yeah. That's what I wanted. I was beyond rational thought at that point. My husband parks right in front of the doors. It's totally fine. We're in a small enough town. It's great. He gets the wheelchair and wheels me up. People are clearing the elevator for me and I'm like, “Uhhhhhhh.” We only had a ten-minute ride to the hospital, but I had at least five contractions so I was in full-blown transition at that point. I'm horse-lipping it. I'm doing whatever I can to not push. We get up to the room. We skip triage. We go right into the room and they're pretty calm. My birth plan never made it over there, so they don't know who I am really. I'm like, “That's great. I'm happy with that because I'm a VBAC person and I don't want the monitoring. I don't want to be in your constrictions, rules, whatever.” It took them a long time actually to figure out I was a VBAC person. They're kind of intermittently monitoring me but I'm moving around. I'm fully naked at this point. I had no modesty. I did not care. Oh, I had a TENS unit and I had a comb. Meagan: Combs are amazing. Heather: They really are. I'm leaning against the back of the hospital bed and I'm screaming through them. I got checked and I was like, “Can I have medicine?” They were like, “Uh, it's too late for that. You're at a 9.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I started labor maybe around 3:30 or so and I'm at the hospital by 8:30. Meagan: Wow. Heather: So I'm at a 9. I had my TENS unit turned way up. I'm screaming for things. As my husband, I want to say this. As my husband was wheeling me into the room, I was like, “I'm going to ask for an epidural. I want the epidural.” He was like, “No, you don't. No, you don't.” That moment was so important because at that exact moment, I forgave myself for that first epidural. I don't think I could have in any other situation. I really was like, “No. I did what I had to that first birth. I understand again why I did it. This is no joke.” Just that thankfulness and that gratitude for that started. One of the nice midwives was on call so she comes in and she checks me. Even though I'm a 9, my cervix is moving out of the way, so she was like, “You have the green light to push.” So I'm pushing and I probably got ten minutes into pushing and I was like, “This isn't working. I want a C-section. I want to be awake for my baby's birth. I don't want her to get stuck.” The midwife was like, “This was your choice. We have not been doing this for long enough. Okay. We are not there yet.” Everybody like my doula is in the back saying, “No, Heather. You're doing great. You're fine.” My husband is like, “No. We're not doing that.” I was like, “Okay. Okay, no. I know how to push. I remember this. I can do this.” So I was pushing. I started off pushing holding the back of the hospital bed. I pushed on my hands and knees. I wasn't feeling like it was super effective at that point. I really wanted to try the squat bar. They didn't really know where it was. They had to figure out where it was. I guess they don't use it a lot, but I was like, “No. We're doing this.” I pushed squatting for a while. That was pretty good, but we were like, “Okay. Let's find a position where I can rest in between contractions too.” I tried on my left side for a while and then I turned to my right side for a while. One of the pushes on my right side, I felt a shift and I was like, “Oh. Now we're in business.” I could tell. She had moved farther along. I actually ended up pushing on my back for a little while. That felt good too. It felt really effective. While I was on my back, I asked for a mirror which was something in my first birth, my voice had said, “Yeah. Go for the mirror,” but my fear had gone, “I don't want to see. I don't want to see that.” But this time, they didn't have a mirror so my husband whips out his cell phone and I was like, “Don't you dare.” He's like, “No, no. It's just so you can see. I wouldn't do that Heather.” I was like, “Okay.” Meagan: That's actually a really great idea. Heather: Yeah, honestly. I got to see that. I got to really be so much more present. By the time I was pushing, yes contractions were really intense, but I was so thankful to just be able to do something about them. I had experienced this in the first labor too. With the epidural wearing off, pushing felt good. Ring of fire did not. I could feel that. That was super intense, but I had really gotten back into the zone at this point.I guess I had tested out my provider and she was like, “No. You're doing it. You're doing great.” They really could never get the monitors to continuously monitor me. They tried one of the wireless ones and baby girl and I were just moving too much. I was thinking, “That's fine. We're moving. That's what we need to do.” So I would push and then the labor nurse who apparently was a little snarky about me not being on continuous monitoring would slide the monitor down and at one point, the midwife was like, “That's your baby's heartbeat. Your baby's doing good.” A few times, they reminded me to take really slow breaths in between so we kept that oxygen going. After a while, probably about 45 minutes or maybe longer of pushing, I got back up on the squat bar and it really got serious by this point. I remember the midwife was like, “Okay. There is about this much, about two inches between you and the bed, so once this head is delivered, we're going to carefully roll you to your back and then we'll deliver the rest of the baby.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm having this birth.” So the next contraction comes and it builds. I push and I feel her just slip out entirely. Meagan: Whoa. Heather: She fell out of me at that point. In one motion, I had my eyes closed and I had been on the bar. She's out of me and I roll back onto the back of the bed. All of a sudden, I have this very slimy, meconium-covered baby on my chest. She wasn't covered, but she had all of this fluid come out.Meagan: Warm and sticky.Heather: Yes, very sticky. I was just like, “Oh my god. I did it.” It was an amazing feeling. I didn't have this huge rush of love. It was a little bit like when I had held my son for the first time like, “Oh my gosh. There is this beautiful stranger in my arms,” but that was kind of nice. I was like, “Okay. I'm used to that. That doesn't mean anything. I did it.” They did all of the APGAR scores and everything watching her on my chest. The nursery nurse was like, “If you see her starting to peck around, you can nurse her.” We had a successful first latch. My doula was taking pictures so we have some beautiful pictures of my husband and me just looking at this baby and looking at each other and grinning. I mean, I would say the biggest feeling I had after Juniper's birth was just gratitude. I really felt so cared for in the hospital this time. I knew the midwife and she was really, really supportive. Having my doula and my husband there was great. My husband was a rockstar this time. I would say we were both kind of deer in headlights the first birth. This time, he was giving me sips of water. He was encouraging me to put on chapstick. He was holding my hand. He was just an amazing partner through this and I mean, I know my doula did a lot but I feel like she was also just kind of there. I know at one point when they were like, “There's no birth plan. What does she want?” my doula was on it because at that point, all I would have been able to say it, “I want the things,” which would have been, “I want skin-to-skin. I want delayed cord clamping.” My husband cut the umbilical cord while she was on my chest. We got to see the placenta. We got alone time just to have that golden hour. I was very sore but it was nothing compared to the back labor. I just felt really like, “Okay. I can handle this recovery this time.” Important to note, I did have a mental health plan in place for postpartum. I still saw my providers two weeks later and it was the really warm and fuzzy midwife. She was like, “How are you feeling?” I was like, “Honestly, I'm great.” I had a little bit of baby blues a few days after where I was comically crying because my babies were growing up when one is four days old, but it was honestly a night and day difference between the baby blues and postpartum depression. Baby blues, I felt great most of the time. I had this abiding sense of gratitude and love for my husband, for my kids, thankfulness and so appreciative of the staff. My midwife had actually told the labor nurse to back off because she was freaking out that I wasn't being monitored as a VBAC person but my midwife had said going into it, “I think number one, we're going to get you a better birth this time and I think that's going to help your mental health but number two, we're here. We can up your dose.” I had therapy appointments already scheduled. My therapist was like, “If you need to see me twice a week, that's fine. We'll make this work.” Ultimately, I went into it having done a lot of preparation for postpartum and knowing that I had been through the fire the first time and I could do it if need be. Actually, it was a lot easier than I had expected. I think the other reason why this postpartum reason was easier was because I did do so much intensive work since my first child's birth. I really dug into the trauma. It took a long time. There's no timeline where you have to have it all figured out by and even during pregnancy, I was still figuring out bits and pieces of it and piecing it together and facing difficulties, but I had just told myself going into that birth, “I'm going to l listen to myself. I'm going to listen to that voice and if baby needs to be born via C-section, it's going to be okay because I will have listened to myself this time.” That's going to be the big difference. So I really tried to manage my expectations but also just to hold onto what I knew I could control and what I knew I could do. Meagan: I love that you say that. Hold onto what I could control. Hold onto what you can control We know in birth and in life, in everything in life, there are so many things that are truly out of our control, but for this birth, you held onto what you could control and then you were open-minded for the things that you couldn't control. It didn't go another route which is awesome, but if it did, you were much better prepared this time. Through this birth, I feel like we saw such a shift in you, Heather. We saw such a big shift in, “I've got this voice. I don't feel I can use it. I've got this voice. I'm going to use it and I'm going to get my team. They're going to know what my voice is before I get there even so if I don't ever feel like I can use it because I'm in a space where I'm vulnerable, my team knows and they're advocating for me.” Heather: Yeah. That was such an important part for me. I knew I was having a daughter this time. I was like, “I'm going to approach this as the model that I want her to have. I want her to know that she is empowered to make whatever choices she needs to in life and I need to practice that now.” I also want my kids to know sometimes life is uncontrollable and that we can trust things but we can also just accept that some things are going to be hard. We don't know what the outcome is going to be. I really had this saying in the back of my head, “Don't push the river. The river of labor is going to come. It's going to take me where it takes me.” From the water breaking to her being out, it was maybe 7 hours. She was born at 9:58 AM so an hour and a half after I got to the hospital. So much did go how I wanted. So much was a lot harder than I expected, but I had prepared myself in so many ways. I knew I was strong. I knew I had been preparing my body, my mind, and my emotions. I really had just been so vulnerable with my husband and myself. I knew I could tap into that vulnerability as strength which is honestly one reason why I am here today is that I really hope that we can all find that. It's hard. Meagan: It is hard. It's really hard. We've talked about this in other episodes. It's hard to even recognize or accept that you need to do that. It's hard to even get to that point. There are so many times when we just brush it away so I love it. I love that you go through all of that work for for yourself. Look at what that did. Look at the impact. Like you said, it's okay. You're still going through things. You're still working through things and you are probably going to for a while and that is okay, but you're helping you and you're taking charge for you.Heather: Mhmm, yep. I feel so good about the example that's for my kids. Meagan: Exactly. Exactly, yes. Thank you so much for coming into this space and being so vulnerable and sharing these beautiful stories. I know as a mom myself going through two undesired Cesareans and both in different ways, I understand that space of wanting to be that strength but not feeling like you can and then through work and processing and education, being able to be there and say, “Okay. I've got this for myself. I've got this for myself.”Listeners, you can do that too. If you are like Heather and I and have been in a moment, and it doesn't even just apply in birth, it may apply in all things in life where we feel vulnerable and we feel stuck, you can do it. You can trudge through the mud. Sometimes it's really feeling like you're trudging with ankle weights on. It's thick and it's heavy, but you can do it. You are strong. Something I also wanted to mention is patient advocacy. I don't know if that's ever been spoken about on the podcast. I don't know if many people even know it exists. I believe from my knowledge that it exists in every hospital because there unfortunately are things that happen in hospitals where patients need to go in. But if you are like Heather and you've had this experience, don't shy away. Heather, do you have any tips on how to maybe approach a provider in that way of, “Hey, I've got this going on.” How could someone start that conversation or who in the hospital can they contact to find the patient advocacy program?Heather: Yeah, so I knew about it because my social worker was also a therapist. I would say that finding social workers is going to be the first step because they are the ones trained to know the systems. I know that there are always going to be some kind of social worker attached to the hospital system. When I had that awful doctor appointment with that obstetrician, I actually did approach the social worker. She's not a therapist but she was like, “Here's the name of the person who you should talk to.” I actually have that card but I haven't contacted them yet because I'm giving myself space and grace but I will. I will at some point and say, “This happened and it was not okay.” I would say if you are afraid to talk to your provider about it, just ask your provider who the social worker is and how to get in contact with them. I don't think hospitals usually advertise that super well at all. Meagan: They don't. Heather: But telling your provider if your provider is the one that you are reporting, telling them that you want to talk to the social worker is a neutral way to go about it. If you're like me and had a wonderful midwife but had an issue with another person, you could probably talk directly to your provider about like, “I need to talk to a patient advocate. What happened was not okay and I want somebody to listen to me.” Meagan: Yeah. This is the thing. I think you touched on it earlier. It's not always to just be like, “I want to sue this person.” It's not about that, but I will tell you right now, it's going to make change. It's going to make change. You are advocating for another birthing person who is walking in and maybe is in a vulnerable space and doesn't feel that they can speak for themselves or maybe after some more education from a provider's standpoint or a nurse's standpoint, they can step back and be like, “Okay. I've learned about this and I'm not going to take this approach because it's affected someone else.” It's okay. It's okay to do that. You really are. You're advocating for the future people.Heather. Yep. It really can help you heal too. Meagan: Absolutely. That's one of the biggest takeaways from personally doing that. Like you said, it didn't help everything. It didn't cure all of your feelings, but it gave you some validation. It gives you power in your healing. So I love that you spoke about that and all about the postpartum. I'm so glad you had a much better and healing and beautiful experience the second time around. Heather: Yes, me too. I really felt so much better cared for this time. Meagan: Good. Good. Well, congratulations again. Heather: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. 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