Podcasts about selfwork podcast

What if trauma didn't just break us but could also shape us in powerful ways? In this thought-provoking episode, Krista St-Germain and Gabe Howard dive into the complex world of post-traumatic growth — exploring how some people emerge from life's darkest moments with deeper purpose, stronger connections, and realigned values. This concept, however, isn't about being “grateful” for suffering. It's about rejecting toxic positivity, confronting internal conflicts, and embracing intentional choices. Discover how curiosity, authenticity, and self-reflection can guide you from surviving to thriving — without minimizing pain. If you've ever wondered whether growth after trauma is possible (or how it really works), this episode will change the way you think about resilience. “My husband died when I was 40. He was killed by a drunk driver. And that was the most awful thing I ever experienced, right? Bar none. I didn't want it to happen. I'm not grateful that it happened. I used to think that in order to experience post-traumatic growth, when I first learned about it, that would mean I would have to be happy that it happened, 100%, no! Right? No, not at all.” ~Krista St-Germain To learn more -- or read the transcript -- please visit the official episode page. Our guest, Krista St-Germain, is a Master Certified Life Coach, Post-Traumatic Growth and grief expert, widow, mom and host of The Widowed Mom Podcast. When her husband was killed by a drunk driver in 2016, Krista's life was completely and unexpectedly flipped upside down. After therapy helped her uncurl from the fetal position, Krista discovered Life Coaching, Post-Traumatic Growth and learned the tools she needed to move forward and create a future she could get excited about. Now she coaches and teaches other widows so they can love life again, too. Krista has been featured online and in print in Psychology Today, Medium, Thrive Global, Bustle, Psych Central, and Parents Magazine and on select podcasts such as The SelfWork Podcast, Seek The Joy, Life Check Yourself, and You Need A Budget to name a few. Our host, Gabe Howard, is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, "Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations," available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. Gabe makes his home in the suburbs of Columbus, Ohio. He lives with his supportive wife, Kendall, and a Miniature Schnauzer dog that he never wanted, but now can't imagine life without. To book Gabe for your next event or learn more about him, please visit gabehoward.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Navigating Stepfamily Life After Tragedy Strikes Today we are taking on a tough, but important, topic: picking yourself (and your stepfamily) back up after your worst nightmare comes to life. I'm talking to stepmom and grief expert Krista St-Germain, who moved through unthinkable tragedy to learn how to thrive again. She's got an inspiring outlook and some amazing insights for stepfamilies who may be dealing with grief. About Krista: Krista St-Germain is a Master Certified Life Coach, Post-Traumatic Growth and grief expert, widow, mom and host of The Widowed Mom Podcast. When her husband was killed by a drunk driver in 2016, Krista's life was completely and unexpectedly flipped upside down. After therapy helped her uncurl from the fetal position, Krista discovered Life Coaching, Post Traumatic Growth and learned the tools she needed to move forward and create a future she could get excited about. Now she coaches and teaches other widows so they can love life again, too. Krista has been featured online and in print in Psychology Today, Medium, Thrive Global, Bustle, Psych Central, and Parents Magazine and on select podcasts such as The SelfWork Podcast, Seek The Joy, Life Check Yourself, and You Need A Budget to name a few. You Can Find Krista: On Instagram: @lifecoachkrista On her website, coachingwithkrista.com/ Links Mentioned In Today's Episode Krista is generously offering a course on navigating grief to our listeners for FREE - You can access it right HERE.   Got a question for me or something you're struggling with in your stepfamily life? Submit a question to be answered on a future podcast episode HERE Want to go deeper into coparenting, dealing with your partner's ex, finding your own peace, and other blended family challenges? Join the Stepfamily Circle HERE Are you enjoying The Stepmom Diaries? If so, please consider rating and reviewing the show. It will help me reach more stepmoms just like you so they can get MORE out of stepmom life! It's super easy – all you have to do is click HERE and scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “write a review.” Then just let me know what you like best! And the best part about leaving a review? If you send me a screenshot of your review, I'll send YOU my 20-minute Stepmom Self-Care Blueprint. For FREE. It's normally $49 and it's a great tool to quickly set up a self-care plan you'll actually use. Just head HERE to send me your screenshot and grab your blueprint!

On today's episode, Gabe interviews Dr. Margaret Rutherford, a clinical psychologist and the host of “The SelfWork Podcast.” They discuss the pressing issue of loneliness as a global health threat, likening its mortality effects to smoking 15 cigarettes a day, and explore its close relationship with depression. Rutherford emphasizes the importance of practicing social interaction, reevaluating perceptions of being alone, and taking small proactive steps to combat loneliness and build meaningful connections. “I think you have to look at your definition of alone. And what are you telling yourself about being alone? I'm alone because, what? Because I'm a failure? Because I am undesirable? What are you heaping on yourself about being alone that is detrimental to you? As long as you are engaged in constant negative appraisal of you spending an evening alone or a week alone or whatever it is, as long as you are calling that highly undesirable and actually that means you are less than, then you're going to run into trouble.” ~Dr. Margaret Rutherford To learn more -- or read the transcript -- please visit the official episode page. Our guest, Margaret Robinson Rutherford, PhD, is a clinical psychologist with 30 years of experience, an author, TEDx speaker, and podcast host. Her book, “Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression,” has reached thousands in the United States and is having an international impact, with translations reaching Korea to Italy, Turkey to Germany. Her podcast, “The SelfWork Podcast,” has been continuously rated as one of the best podcasts for mental health and depression. Our host, Gabe Howard, is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, "Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations," available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. Gabe makes his home in the suburbs of Columbus, Ohio. He lives with his supportive wife, Kendall, and a Miniature Schnauzer dog that he never wanted, but now can't imagine life without. To book Gabe for your next event or learn more about him, please visit gabehoward.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Margaret Robinson Rutherford Ph.D., a clinical psychologist with thirty years of experience, is also an author, TedX speaker, and podcast host. Her book, Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression, has reached thousands here in the US, as well as having an international impact, with translations reaching from Korea to Italy, Turkey to Germany. Her highly popular podcast, The SelfWork Podcast, has been continuously rated as one of the best podcasts for mental health and depression, and her TedX talk hit the top 50 in 2023. Dr. Margaret's known for her vibrantly engaging and theoretically well-crafted presentations, whether live or virtual. Whether her diverse audiences are made up of mental health professionals, construction workers, or office managers, her passionate message is that healthy mental and emotional lives can be created through becoming more transparent with one another. Sharing who you really are with those you trust is a huge step toward connection and good mental health. Rates of depression and suicide are skyrocketing. And there's something we can do! She's further challenging the mental health profession to question their overreliance on the official symptom checklist for diagnosis. Instead, we need to create normalcy around suicidal feelings, listen to each person's actual experience of their life, and respond with safety and compassion, rather than stigmatizing this very real and excruciatingly painful part of human existence. *Though I usually don't do this, I wanted to be sure to put in a content warning here for discussion of self-harm and suicide.* In this episode, we cover: - how she pivoted from a career in music to psychology - why people use perfectionism to mask depression - the story behind her book - Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression - how you can start to express and accept yourself ... and more! You can connect with her over on Instagram: @drmargaretrutherford Or check out her website: drmargaretrutherford.com You can learn more about me by following on IG @imperfectlypaigewellness or by checking out my blog, freebies, and offers on my website: https://imperfectlypaigewellness.com Please share with #PaigeTalksWellness to help get the word out about the show - and join the Imperfect Health Fam over on Facebook.

Krista St-Germain shares her journey with grief following the death of her husband by a drunken driver. She explains how the commonly referenced five stages of grief are inadequate – if not outright inaccurate – for many people's experiences. She discusses alternative grief theories, such as the dual process model, and introduces the concepts of “grief plateau” and “grief fog,” highlighting the complexity and uniqueness of each person's experience of grief. In her work as a grief expert, Krista advocates for a more individualized approach to grief, emphasizing the process of integration and post-traumatic growth rather than just “moving on” or reaching acceptance. She is a master certified life coach, a post-traumatic growth and grief expert, widow, mom, and the host of “The Widowed Mom Podcast.” To learn more -- or read the transcript -- please visit the episode page. Our guest, Krista St-Germain, is a Master Certified Life Coach, Post-Traumatic Growth and grief expert, widow, mom and host of The Widowed Mom Podcast. When her husband was killed by a drunk driver in 2016, Krista's life was completely and unexpectedly flipped upside down. After therapy helped her uncurl from the fetal position, Krista discovered Life Coaching, Post Traumatic Growth and learned the tools she needed to move forward and create a future she could get excited about. Now she coaches and teaches other widows so they can love life again, too. Krista has been featured online and in print in Psychology Today, Medium, Thrive Global, Bustle, Psych Central, and Parents Magazine and on select podcasts such as The SelfWork Podcast, Seek The Joy, Life Check Yourself, and You Need A Budget to name a few.  Our host, Gabe Howard, is an award-winning writer and speaker who lives with bipolar disorder. He is the author of the popular book, "Mental Illness is an Asshole and other Observations," available from Amazon; signed copies are also available directly from the author. Gabe makes his home in the suburbs of Columbus, Ohio. He lives with his supportive wife, Kendall, and a Miniature Schnauzer dog that he never wanted, but now can't imagine life without. To book Gabe for your next event or learn more about him, please visit gabehoward.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dr. Margaret Rutherford is celebrating her 30th year as a psychologist in a private clinical practice that she loves in Fayetteville, Arkansas. In 2014, Dr. Margaret published an article on The Huffington Post that went viral. That article evolved into Perfectly Hidden Depression, Dr. Margaret's debut novel which focuses on how destructive perfectionism can act as an unconscious camouflage for silent despair, loneliness, and even suicidal thoughts. Dr. Margaret joins Erin to discuss what how we've learned to camouflage our emotional pain with accomplishments, what's underneath it all (the way we show up, our sense of humor, our personality, our energy) that needs attention, and the difference between constructive perfectionism and destructive perfectionism. Dr. Margaret explains why perfectionism is highly regarded in corporate culture and tools we can use to heal. If you're looking for a science-backed understanding of perfectly hidden depression and perfectionism, this is the episode for you. ICYMI – Your Post-Episode Homework: Share this episode with a friend.   Show Links: ·       Purchase the I See You Meditation Album ·       Pre-order Erin's newest book, I See You! A Leader's Guide to Energizing Your Team through Radical Empathy ·       Get our free 4-Step Consistency Planner here ·       Did today's episode resonate with you? Please leave us a review for a chance to win a self-care package from us. ·       Send a question/voice message on SpeakPipe here. ·       Want to book Erin to speak at your organization or large-scale event: Learn more here.   Connect with Dr. Margaret Rutherfod: ·       Dr. Margaret's website ·       Dr. Margaret's podcast, The Selfwork Podcast ·       Dr. Margaret's blog ·       Dr. Margaret's LinkedIn   Connect with Erin Diehl: ·       @itserindiehl on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter ·       Erin's LinkedIn ·       improve it! TikTok ·       Improve it! Instagram ·       Improve it! Facebook ·       improve it! website ·       Book a Laugh Break ·       Book a Workshop ·       Email Erin: info@learntoimproveit.com “I love this podcast and I love Erin!!” If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing this podcast! This helps Erin support more people – just like you – move toward the leader you want to be. Click here, click listen on Apple Podcasts, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with 5 stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then be sure to let Erin know what you loved most about the episode! Also, if you haven't done so already, subscribe to the podcast. That way you won't miss any juicy episodes! Thanks in advance, improve it! Peeps :)

Dr. Margaret Rutherford is a clinical psychologist, author and host of The SelfWork Podcast. She focuses on helping others lead healthier mental and emotional lives. Today, Dr. Margaret shares how living through her “lost decade” taught her resilience, hope and the transformational power of being more transparent with one another. Known for coining the term “perfectly hidden depression”, Dr. Margaret also shares how to break free from the cage of perfectionism and quiet our critical inner voice. My friends, this conversation is about more than leading healthy mental and emotions lives… it's about embracing the gift of life in all its shades.

Dr. Margaret Robinson Rutherford is a clinical psychologist with thirty years of experience, an author, a TEDx speaker, and a podcast host. Dr. Margaret is known for her vibrantly engaging and theoretically well-crafted presentations.  Her passionate message is that healthy mental and emotional lives can be created through becoming more transparent with one another. Sharing who you really are with those you trust is a huge step toward connection and good mental health. Margaret is challenging the mental health profession to question their overreliance on the official symptom checklist for diagnosis. Instead, we need to create normalcy around suicidal feelings, listen to each person's actual experience of their life, and respond with safety and compassion, rather than stigmatizing this very real and excruciatingly painful part of human existence. She's also known for her book, “Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression,” and her highly popular podcast, The SelfWork Podcast. It has been continuously rated as one of the best podcasts for mental health and depression. Listen in for some great takeaways on how we can reduce the stigma around mental health and suicide to help everyone.  You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... Learn more about Dr. Margaret Rutherford [3:02]  Why Dr. Margaret became a therapist [6:29]  What is perfectly hidden depression? [11:31]  Check out our book “Financial Planning Made Personal” [14:14]  Why striving for perfection can be dangerous [14:53]  How Dr. Margaret got a TEDx Talk [16:45]  Why you should listen to Dr. Margaret's podcast [19:34] What is “phubbing?” Why does it damage relationships? [23:40]  Dr. Margaret's tips for empty-nesters [24:58] How to care for your mental health [28:03]  What Dr. Margaret did today that put her in the mindset for success [31:31] Resources & People Mentioned Financial Planning Made Personal Dr. Margaret's TEDx Talk The SelfWork Podcast The Perfectly Hidden Depressed Person: Are You One? Dr. Margaret's book: Perfectly Hidden Depression I Don't Want to Talk About It by Terrence Real Connect with Dr. Margaret Rutherford The website On Instagram On Linkedin On Facebook Connect With Mitlin Financial podcast*at*mitlinfinancial(dot)com - email us with your suggestions for topics or guests If you would like to learn more schedule a call: https://mitlin.us/FitCall https://mitlinfinancial.com  Follow on Twitter Follow on Instagram Subscribe on Youtube Follow on Linkedin Follow on Facebook Guests on the Mitlin Money Mindset Show are not affiliated with CWM, LLC, and opinions expressed herein may not be representative of CWM, LLC. CWM, LLC is not responsible for the guest's content linked on this site. Subscribe to Mitlin Money Mindset® on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts

Margaret Robinson Rutherford Ph.D., a clinical psychologist with thirty years of experience, is also an author, TedX speaker, and podcast host. Her book, Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression, has reached thousands here in the US, as well as having an international impact, with translations reaching from Korea to Italy, Turkey to Germany. Her highly popular podcast, The SelfWork Podcast, has been continuously rated as one of the best podcasts for mental health and depression. Dr. Margaret's known for her vibrantly engaging and theoretically well-crafted presentations, whether live or virtual. Whether her diverse audiences are made up of mental health professionals, construction workers, or office managers, her passionate message is that healthy mental and emotional lives can be created through becoming more transparent with one another. Sharing who you really are with those you trust is a huge step toward connection and good mental health. Rates of depression and suicide are skyrocketing. And there's something we can do! She's further challenging the mental health profession to question their overreliance on the official symptom checklist for diagnosis. Instead, we need to create normalcy around suicidal feelings, listen to each person's actual experience of their life, and respond with safety and compassion, rather than stigmatizing this very real and excruciatingly painful part of human existence

In this thought-provoking episode, we discuss the impact of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict on our mental health. Guest expert, Dr. Margaret Rutherford, a renowned clinical psychologist and author of "Perfectly Hidden Depression," helps us understand how we can cope with the uncertainty and the fear caused by all the climate change, a rapidly shifting technological environment, and global conflict. She provides a helpful perspective on how global conflicts can impact individuals' mental health and the importance of fostering understanding and empathy. We also explore the concept of "perfectly hidden depression," a term coined by Dr. Rutherford to describe a unique form of concealed emotional distress. We discuss how societal narratives can influence our mental well-being, particularly in the age of social media, and why it's crucial to be aware of the messages we internalise. We also touch upon the challenges of labelling and stigmatising mental health conditions. This episode encourages self-reflection, challenges common assumptions, and underscores the need for open dialogues on both mental health and complex geopolitical issues. Tune in for an engaging and enlightening discussion with a leading voice in psychology. Dr. Margaret Rutherford Ph.D., a clinical psychologist with thirty years of experience, is also an author, TedX speaker, and podcast host. Her book, Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression, has reached thousands here in the US, as well as having an international impact, with translations reaching from Korea to Italy, Turkey to Germany. Her highly popular podcast, The SelfWork Podcast, has been continuously rated as one of the best podcasts for mental health and depression.   SHOWNOTES - 00:00:00 - Coming Up 00:01:23 - Guest Introduction 00:03:50 - Coping with Fear Amid the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict 00:12:48 - Providing Guidance When You Haven't Walked in Their Shoes 00:17:05-  Dealing with Anger & Disappointment Caused by Human Cruelty 00:22:40 - Navigating Anxiety in an Era of Global Uncertainty 00:26:15 - Ideal Personal Qualities for Good Mental Health 00:31:10 - Fascination with True Crime Shows 00:35:00 - Understanding the Seriousness of a Mental Illness 00:40:00 - Dangers of ‘Social Media Therapy' 00:44:15 - Hidden Depression, Constructive, & Destructive Perfectionism 00:50:40 - Unhealthy Resilience 00:55:30 - Self-Talk vs. Professional Therapy 00:59:20 - Dangerous Social Narratives   CONNECT WITH DR. MARGARET RUTHERFORD - Website - https://drmargaretrutherford.com/ The Selfwork Podcast - https://drmargaretrutherford.com/selfwork/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drmargaretrutherford/   Subscribe to the Newsletter - https://www.kratimehra.com/newsletter/ For more, visit - https://www.kratimehra.com/experible/ Transcript and Blog Post - https://www.kratimehra.com/margaret-rutherford-global-uncertainty-mentalhealth-hidden-depression/ Subscribe to my YouTube Chanel and get access to more solo and interview conversations - https://www.youtube.com/@kratimehra/ Follow me on Instagram - https://www.kratimehra.com/mehra_krati/

Come celebrate with us! SelfWork is having its seventh anniversary so we're celebrating by bringing on the whole team! Please join me, Christine Mathias and John Crowley for a completely spontaneous conversation (which you'll be able to tell...) about our topic for today - the seven year itch! (Sounds appropriate don't you think?) I'm offering seven ideas (keeping in the swing of things): three on how to avoid the itch altogether; one to use if you feel the itch to leave or to not act out what you know is best; and three more to help you keep on keeping on, growing in trust and intimacy with one another. I'll announce the winner of Marriage Is Not for Chickens as well! Advertiser's Link: Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has a special offer for you now! Research Links! Wikipedia's take on the seven year itch Dr. DiDonato writes in Psychology Today about seven year itch Your career and the seven year itch You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you!

Welcome to "Shit Talking Shrinks," I'm your host Paulie Siegel, a Licensed therapist, Certified Addiction Counselor, and master-level trained mindfulness practitioner with a passion for psychology, humor, and insightful journeys through the realm of mental wellness. Join me as we explore the depths of the human mind, unraveling complexities while keeping it lighthearted.In this episode, I welcome a true luminary in the field of psychology, Dr. Margaret Robinson Rutherford Ph.D. With over 30 years of experience as a clinical psychologist, Dr. Margaret has not only authored a book, but has also graced the stage of TEDx and is the host of the widely acclaimed The SelfWork Podcast.Our focus in this episode is an incredibly important and often overlooked topic: Perfectly Hidden Depression. Dr. Margaret will guide us through this concept, shedding light on how individuals can appear to have it all together on the outside while harboring profound emotional struggles within.We'll explore the nuances of Perfectly Hidden Depression, delving into how it differs from more overt forms of depression and anxiety. Dr. Margaret will share her insights on the importance of exposing, uncovering, and acknowledging these hidden struggles, as well as the potential consequences of leaving them unaddressed.Join us for an enlightening conversation as we learn more about the signs and symptoms of Perfectly Hidden Depression, the potential triggers, and most importantly, the steps individuals can take to seek help and healing.Don't miss this opportunity to gain valuable insights into the world of mental health from the perspective of a seasoned expert.  Learn more about Dr. Margaret and her work at: https://drmargaretrutherford.comConnect with Dr. Margaret on Instagram here: @drmargaretrutherfordAdd Dr. Margaret on Facebook here: @DrMargaretRutherfordTEDx Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXZ5Bo5lafAIf you want to work with me therapeutically and live in CO or ILhttps://www.courageouspathscounseling.comNeed quality therapy ASAP?! Receive 10% off your first month by clicking this link

Trigger Warning: We're talking about sibling sexual abuse in this episode. The links for sexual abuse hotlines are below. I've had so many guest interviews on SelfWork – really wonderful researchers and authors, therapists and thinkers. But there's something very special about someone coming forth to share their message when they've learned something the hard way – and they want to help others either through what they went through or to avoid it in the first place. Jane Epstein is this kind of person. She tells her story in this episode about how her life was dramatically impacted by her brother sexually abusing her. It took her years to put the pieces of the puzzle together, making connections between past and present that were difficult and painful to make – but also were freeing. Many of you who are listening may have experienced something similar – and have tried, as Jane did for many years – to sweep it under the rug. A stepsister or stepbrother, an older sibling – and you've blamed yourself. Or felt a shameful heaviness. Please know, you are far, far from alone. Advertiser's Links: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just click here! Make sure you use the code “selfwork10” to check out free product! Vital Links: Jane Epsteins TEDxBocaRaton Talk: Great sexual abuse website for sibling abuse: The 501-3-C non-profit 5WAVES.org - Jane's (and others) website for support International Sexual Abuse Hotline thru RAINN I want to thank Jane and all other survivors of abuse who've come forward. It takes tremendous courage. You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript: Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford, and we have a wonderful guest for you today. I wanna make sure you hear however, that this episode does discuss sexual abuse, sibling sexual abuse. So please heed a trigger warning and we'll have sexual abuse hotline suggestions in the show notes. You know, I've had so many guest interviews here on Selfwork, really wonderful researchers and authors, therapists and thinkers. But there's something very special about someone coming forth to share their message when they've learned something the hard way, and they want to help others, either through what they went through or to avoid the experience in the first place. Jane Epstein is this kind of person. She tells her story in this episode about how her life was dramatically impacted by her brother sexually abusing her for a six year period of time. It took her years to put the pieces of the puzzle together, making connections between past and present that were difficult and painful to make, but also were very freeing. And I want to quickly say, many of you who are listening may have experienced something similar and have tried, as Jane did for many years, to sweep the memories under the rug. Maybe it was a stepsister or stepbrother, an older sibling, and you've blamed yourself or felt a shameful heaviness. So that's what we're talking about today on SelfWork. But before we continue, let's hear a brief message from Magnesium Breakthrough. You wanna give their product a try if you have too many sleepless nights, maybe from your own troubling memories. Magnesium Breakthrough Ad: I hope you truly enjoyed some time with family and friends this summer and got to take a break from the daily grind and enjoy your life. Perhaps you've indulged a bit on ice cream to beat the heat, or a margarita or two. Gosh, lots of indulgence may become the norm, but now kids are back in school and it's time to get back on track. If you struggle to return to your health routine, there are three major things to prioritize healthy eating, exercise, and above all, quality sleep. 'cause sleep is the key to your body's rejuvenation and repair process. It actually controls hunger and weight loss hormones, boosts energy levels, and it impacts countless other functions. That's why I take Magnesium daily, but not any supplement. I got Magnesium Breakthrough because it's just better. It's made by BIOptimizers and I, I highly recommend it. It has seven forms of magnesium designed help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. And guess what? If you get more sleep, you're gonna find out that your healthy eating and exercise may be a little easier to do. So visit magbreakthrough.com/selfwork. Don't forget to enter Code SelfWork10 for 10% off any order. Once again, it's magbreakthrough.com/selfwork. Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret I should tell you before we begin, how I met Jane Epstein. She actually did a TEDx talk for Boca Ratone and I watched it and we had the same coach. That's sort of a neat bond for us to share, but we talk about our TEDx experience a little bit here too. So please listen to this episode. Please click the link to Jane's TEDx talk, which will be in the show notes, or go to my website, drmargaretrutherford.com, and you can find it there. Another website that Jane has told me about, which is really wonderful is www.siblingsexualtrauma.com. But just know you are far, far from alone. Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret I couldn't be happier to have you on SelfWork Jane, because I have listened to your TEDx many, many times. And we shared a coach, which was kind of fun. And so I, I looked at yours as to say, well, what would it be like to to work with Brian Miller? But I personally today wanna hear more about your story. About one of my questions as I looked at it is, how did you talk to your family about it? Or, or did you say, "No, it's my story to tell."  Just what and what made you, what brought you to TEDx in the first place? Speaker 2: Jane Epstein First of all, thank you for having me on your show. Of course, I, I have listened to a couple of your podcasts and I, I've listened to you and I've listened to your TEDx and you are very trauma informed, and you are very kind and compassionate and lots of wisdom. So I appreciate being on your puck. Thank you. First thing, what brought me to TEDx and how did I tell my family? Me, I don't remember the exact timeline, but I started Googling sibling sexual abuse and trauma, and I couldn't find anything on it. And I, I had this feeling that I wasn't the only one. I thought, I can't be the only person. 'cause I found two outdated articles that stated that it's a silent epidemic, right? I was, okay, well, if it's an epidemic, I'm clearly not the only six year old little girl. My my sibling who was 12 at the time, is not the only 12 year old child who, who an abused a sibling. So I just was called to start talking about it, and I reached out to my sibling. It was very awkward. And I expressed to him, I said, "I feel called to start talking about this and sharing my story because no one's talking about it. And it's a silent epidemic." And he said he understood and that he would support me in whatever way he can. Speaker 1: I get chill bumps when I hear that. Speaker 2: Yes. He, I'm, I have a very unique situation. I've been able to forgive him. I can call him and ask him questions. I'll say, I had this memory, is this true? And he's very careful to not give me more information. Mm-hmm. , because he knows I have enough to work with. I don't need any more triggers. I don't need any more memories. Mm-hmm. . And I also think that because of what happened between us, that he's hypervigilant and that he's got his eyes on other families, and that he sees that there could potentially be problems and sexual abuse occurring. And because sibling sexual abuse is so prevalent and not talked about, I think we are seeing things and not always able to put our finger on it. In Speaker 1: Your talk, you quote in your talk, you quote statistics like it's three to five times - It happens three to five times more than father daughter abuse, which is incredible. It starts earlier. It lasts for years often. So you're right. And it, it is something I, I remember I wrote a post on sex, uh, sibling sexual abuse. I got all kinds of comments. So yes, you're exactly right. Speaker 2: Yes. I listened to your podcast on the sibling sexual abuse, and it was very well done. Thank you. You're, you're very informed, . Thank you. So I started talking to my brother and I said, I need, we need to talk about this. We need to, we need to do this. Um, or I need to do this. And I had these great grand visions because there's so much work that needs to be done. Well, it's a marathon on its front . So I started pitching the media, it, my emails were either not opened or not responded to. One response was, "Well, we haven't ever talked about that, but if we do, we'll reach out". And I'm thinking, you're not gonna talk about it. So I come across a video with Brian Kenneth Miller, our joint TEDx coach. And he had gone through, what is a TEDx? What is a TEDx? Speaker 2: What is not a TEDx? Because I thought, "Well, I'll go on TEDx and I'll share my story and I'll raise the alarm bell." Well, TEDx is not sharing your story, but I thought, well, I'll book a call with him anyways. So I booked a call with him and he said, "A tough topic, but I think we could come up with something." So we started talking about it, and it is, it's a tough topic, it's a dark topic. And Brian was never told me this, but he was concerned, how am I gonna get on the TEDx stage? Mm-hmm. . So we started going down the path of how to support someone who's been through a traumatic event. And I was gonna slide sibling sexual abuse and trauma through the back door. Okay. Which would not have been a great talk because there's lots of how to support people who've gone through trauma. It would not have been Speaker 1: Not unique, Speaker 2: Impactful, not unique, not impactful. It might have gotten on stage, but not likely. So then I heard from TEDx Boca Raton, and I sat down with Eric and Eric said, look, you know, we like your idea, but we really wanna know more about the sibling sexual abuse and trauma. Can you talk just about that? And I said, yes, I can. And I pointed to all my research books and I started spouting off all these statistics. And he said, "Great, that's what we want you to talk about". And I said, excellent. And that's how it all started. And I didn't mean to be on the TEDx, it's just that's kind of where I landed. And I, you know, once I was approved and started practicing my TEDx talk, I started having all the anxieties of speaking in front of a large crowd, but practiced and practiced and practiced. And the day I got on that stage, I just, they basically, there's something magical about that red dot. Maybe it's true. I got on that red dot and all was okay. But I was shaking.. Speaker 1: Oh, I was perfectly calm. . Speaker 2: It's amazing what you can make, even though the camera, you know, the camera shows all, oh, it was done. Well, you did aYou did a really wonderful job. Speaker 1: And, and one of the things that I thought was so powerful about it, again, you've already mentioned it, was that your, your brother had, he had apologized, but then he had, you had written to him years later and he said, "Oh gosh, I didn't know this was still a thing for you." So I'm sure this solidified for him, again, the seriousness of the trauma, the impact that that had had on you, uh, and that it had, it had, uh, impacted your choices as an adult. And when you left home and it was, it was a elegant story. Well, it's, call it elegant is missing the point of that. It was very painfully uh, impactful. So, um, yeah, I mean, you made, you made some career choices that were obviously you trying to get back in control, but it didn't work. Speaker 2: Right. Right. And I'm not sure he understands the full impact. We've never sat down and, and talked about it. It's, it's like, it's a, it's a strained relationship. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: Um, but it, it's friendly enough in that I can reach out to him. I haven't reached out to him for a while, but I would can reach out to him and say, "I had this memory, is this a false memory? Is this true? Is this what happened?" And he is very careful the way he answers it, because he does, doesn't wanna trigger me and give me more memories. 'cause I have plenty to work with. Sure. He understands why I'm so public. He's not exactly thrilled about it. But, you know, I was in the People magazine and I had to run that by him. And, and the pictures, I ran the pictures by him. And that, it's hard. Uh, it's hard because it's putting him in a, in a, in a tough situation. But in my situation, in my story, my sibling is not a monster. My sibling is not a pedophile. My sibling caused a lot of harm, caused a lot of damage, caused a lot of trauma. And I, I have forgiven him. Um, and I'm not telling every survivor, you have to forgive to heal. That is not my, that's not my thing. It's just that's what worked for me. And it started by forgiving the little girl first, my little girl myself. And then I was able to forgive him. Speaker 1: Well, an aspect of this that I wanted to talk to you about a little bit more was you opened the talk by saying that you were in marital work with your husband, and your therapist turned to you and said, "I, I just don't get where all this anger is coming from. It doesn't seem to fit the situation." And, and then ask the very astute question of, "Is there something that might be, is triggered by what's going on with your husband? And that's what's, that's what we're seeing". And you, did you, did you connect the dots right then? Or did it take you a while? It took a while. It was your sexual abuse that was getting somehow, maybe you can talk about that a little bit. What was getting triggered with your husband? Speaker 2: Right. Many years before, before we were in counseling, something happened in the bedroom that, that triggered a memory. And that memory would not go away. Usually memories would come and go and I could put them away. And I thought it was just two kids being curious. That's not my problem. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: I thought because I'd lost, I lost my first husband to cancer and I got remarried to my, my husband. Now I try not to use current husband 'cause he doesn't like to be the current husband. . Speaker 1: Well, my husband calls Speaker 2: Himself Speaker 1: ) . We've been married 33 years, and he calls himself my current husband. So , Speaker 2: He's a good sport then. Yeah. . Yeah. So I had thought, I knew we had two small children. He had a stressful job. I had, I was still dealing with grief. And I thought, that's why I'm angry. That's why I am upset. That's why I was not depressed in my brain. I was not depressed because no, I had survived burying my first husband, and I survived that. So there's no way I could be depressed. Speaker 1: I have a, I have a book for you to read, . I know Speaker 2: You do. I am in that category. So we eventually went to marriage counseling and I went into the marriage counseling thinking, okay, he's gonna fix my husband, gonna fix him. Well, I had work to do too, fix too, when it comes to that. So we were in counseling for five years and we really had made a lot of progress. But I was still very, very angry. And I had asked myself, I had dug down and I thought, maybe it's something inside of me. I've tried to turn over every stone that maybe there's something inside of me that needs work. Mm-hmm. . So when the marriage counselor asked that question, I thought, well, there is this. My brother sexually abused me. There's that. And I approached it as, it can't be that because I participated. Right. So who am I to be messed up over that? Speaker 2: And the counselor, I kind of describe it as the deer in the headlights look. He's kinda like trying to sit still and kind of leaning in and trying to be very calm, realizing, okay, this is a big deal. No, what happened is a big deal. Right. And that it went on and off for six years. And that No, that was a big deal. And he said, "You're gonna need to tell Steve". And I said, huh. Steve's my husband. Mm-hmm. Current husband mm-hmm. . I said, oh, no, because then he'll be able to blame all our marriage problems on me. And he said, you need to be able to tell him to protect yourself in order and to, to be able to heal. So that's how that all started. And then I started a whole new healing process. Speaker 1: It's amazing. I've told a story on, on SelfWork about a woman. Um, and I already put a cautionary warning before we started. So great. Uh, a woman came in to see me who, um, it was the local community center. I literally had just gotten to Arkansas where I live now. And, and she said, you know, she told me about sexually abu abuse that her father had, um, had done to her. And then she, and there was this huge sense of relief. And then she came in the next week and she said, I've got something worse to tell you. So I sat back and said, all right. And she said, my dad made me do things to my brother . And she, she was a tough cowboy kind of woman. She had boots and, you know, she was farm girl. I mean, she was tough as nails. Speaker 1: And she teared up and, and we talked about it. And then she, she canceled her next appointment. And I called her and said, I'm, you've, you've shared so much with me, I'm a little concerned that you're not coming back in. Yeah. She said, well, okay, I'll come back in one more time. And she looked at me, Jane, and she said, I thought I would, I knew the look that would be on your face when I told you that I had done something to my brother. Because from her perspective, she had participated rather than being coerced herself. You know, it was, it was her doing something to her brother. And I said, you know, so, and she said, but the look on your face was not condemnation. It was, well, of course you did what your dad told you to do. Right. Um, and then there are other instances I I, uh, I mentioned before when we were just talking about a, a little girl who wore a red nightgown for her brother. Um, because she, she said, I enjoyed the attention. I knew something was wrong, but I, I didn't get any attention from anybody except from him. And so it was very complex and very complicated. But that whole idea of participation is so, um, is, is so confounding for any victim of sexual abuse, but especially with sibling sexual abuse, I think. Speaker 2: Yeah. And I, I wanna share with you that I've actually had some people who, when I, when I speak about the child who caused harm, there are situations where the child causes a lot more than harm. And I try and, and, and lower it a little bit so that parents hear me. Mm-hmm. , because if I scream your child, the pedophile or your child, the monster, your child, the perpetrator, they're not going to hear me. Right. 'cause if I talk about it in a more gentle as your child who caused harm, they're more likely to hear me. So that's why I approach it that way. But I understand that there are survivors out there where it was a lot more than harm. Yes, I understand that. Yes. But I have heard from people who have caused harm and they are suicidal. You're right. And so that's why we talk about this, because we don't want our children to be on any side of it. Speaker 2: Or I feel like if we raise awareness, if we educate our children, maybe we can lessen the numbers. You know, if we talk to our teenagers when they're 10, 12 and explore with them, say, Hey, you're experiencing a lot of changes. You've got a lot of questions. And I understand you may not be able to come to me as your parent, but you are at risk of harming another child, either a younger sibling or a cousin. And so we need to talk about this. What do you know when you have these feelings? And, and we need to talk about pornography. So that's why I I I am, it's an all encompassing, it's a whole family trauma. And, and I work very closely with the women of Five Wave, I dunno if you know anything about the Five Ways, but there's three parents and two survivors. Speaker 2: We've come together. And so the parents have shared their stories when they discover sibling sexual abuse and trauma in their homes and what the parents go through. Yes. What the survivor goes through, what the person who cause harm goes through. If we just talk about it and raise awareness and, and educate people and quit shoving it under the rug, maybe we can lift the numbers. Maybe we can get people help. Because you are a very, you're an informed therapist. You, you are very informed. A lot of therapists I've heard from survivors, they'll, they'll tell a survivor, well, you know, kids are curious. You are very informed. We need more of you . We really do. Speaker 1: Let me ask you something. Are there statistics? 'cause I'm not aware of them. If there are, and I'd love to know, um, about how many of the siblings be they girls or boys, we might point out it's not necessarily, um, and of course, or, or any gender identification. Um, absolutely. And how, what are the statistics on whether they have been abused themselves and then turn around and abused? Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we don't really have those statistics. We need more research. And the women of five Waves, we've actually had people, researchers are reaching out to us, asking us to share their surveys. So there is progress. Again, it's the marathon, not the sprint. So we are trying to gain more, more insight into that. And that's another thing is that I, I hear from survivors a lot. They reach out to me and they say, well, you know, my sibling did this to me, or my cousin did this to me, and then I did it to another child. And that there's shame on top of shame. Yes, indeed. And that happens a lot. Happens a lot. Mm-hmm. . But we don't have those statistics. Again, we need more research and we need more awareness and we need to be talking about it. And that, that's why I'm very loud. Speaker 1: What, what is the name of the organization that you Women of five. Speaker 2: (20:58) Okay. So it's called Five Waves Worldwide Awareness Speaker 1: (21:02) Wave. W A V E Ss. Correct. Speaker 2: (21:04) Worldwide Awareness, Voice, Education and Support. Okay. The way we came together, I've just been out there being very loud. And I am a moderator of a Facebook group for all types of survivors. And we kept having parents keep trying to join. And we're like, well, this is for survivors. So I went to find a parent support group, and through that I found a parent who had started a Facebook group for parents experiencing sibling sexual abuse and trauma in their homes. In their homes. So I reached out to her and I tried to join her group and she politely declined . And then I had a person reach out to me, Brandy Black, which is a pen name, to protect her family. Mm-hmm. . She said, look, it's been during Covid this happened in my home. I couldn't find any research, I couldn't find any resources on it. So I developed a website. Will you look at it? I promised my children to have a survivor look at it. And I said, whoa, this is amazing. Great. That's something I don't have to do. Was on my list. And I started looking at her website, Brandy Black. Speaker 1: (22:03) Oh, black. Okay. Speaker 2: (22:04) Black. I said, I can't get through this. I'm writing my TEDx. So I pulled in another survivor that I knew who was public, Maria Awa. And then I reached out to the woman who ran the Facebook group. And we all came together as 5WAVES. Oh, see. And the parents shared their stories. We shared their stories. So what we have through this organization, it's now 5 0 1 C three, is we are becoming thought leaders in this arena, or it's all out of a matter of, of, of caring. But we all have unique perspectives and we just wanna raise awareness. We want families to have support. We want families to have resources. We, you know, obviously one day we'd love to have this go away, but we aren't, you know, we aren't that optimistic. It, it's been going on forever. Speaker 1: Two cases come to mind that are the opposite. Um, both of them were difficult. One case, um, a case, one woman's story, um, was, uh, I was seeing the mother actually in therapy, and her daughter told her that her brother had sexually abused her. Um, the mother went to another state and confronted the, the brother. And he said, yes, he had, it took them probably it would took them years. I'm not sure how many, because the mother had to do her own work. The, the daughter, um, started working on herself. Um, 'cause she was definitely making choices that were very, um, tied to that, uh, that kind of abuse. So was the perpetrator the, or you go the person who did harm? He got his therapy finally. They got together and did therapy. But it was a long time before this family got together for Thanksgiving or, you know, anything like that, because the, the, the pain was just too real. Speaker 1: And, and yet I, they gradually worked toward that. It was marvelous to see the kind of healing that could actually take place when everybody was, and the mother, you know, had to take some responsibility for saying was I checked out. I mean, you know, maybe I was, maybe I wasn't. Um, and so they did great work. You know, I also have an example of a patient who I was seeing the daughter who was abused. The sister who was abused, uh, when she was a toddler, she had a twin. And she didn't remember it until the twin did. And then they confronted the family together. Actually, before she saw me. The family kind of nodded. It was an older brother. The older brother said, it wasn't me. I think it was a neighbor. Um, that wasn't true. And not a word was said about it again. Speaker 2: Yeah. It's very common. Speaker 1: And she was, she had the kind of family where they expected her to be there at every birthday, at every anniversary, at every holiday, at every religious event. I mean, and it was every time she was, she had anorexia still does. She would just not eat for days, um, after a home visit. So it, you know, those two situations are so contrasting and, and, and one of there can, there can be healing. Yes. It's hard, but there can be healing. Speaker 2: Yeah. And I, I think that the second scenario that you talked about, if you're a parent, I mean, parents experience a lot too when they discover this mm-hmm. . And if they go to Google and they can't find anything, if they aren't understanding, they may think, well, my, my child's the only person in the world who's harmed a sibling, or is my child gonna grow up to be a pedophile? And it's probably terrifying and probably easier to say, okay, let's just pretend status quo, and let's just, let's just go forward. Let's just shove it under the rug. That's what we're hoping to raise awareness. So if the parent, they, they got, I mean, wouldn't it be amazing if like, the Today Show covered this? Speaker 1: Sure. Wouldn't Speaker 2: It be, you know, sibling sexual abuse? Then a mom might think, oh, that's ho that's horrible. I can't believe that's happening. But then if, if she hears about it in her home or friend, she'll say, oh, but I heard this was a thing. You know, it's, it's at least in their subconscious, because if we don't get it out there, it's really hard for a parent to wrap their heads around. Of course. I mean, I can't imagine. I am a parent and I try to educate my children to the point where they run away from me. , . But, um, I, I can't, it's really hard for parents to wrap their head around. And that's, we're just trying to raise that awareness. But I hear from a lot of survivors that they're expected to just go on is normal, and, and you're asking a survivor to, to sit in the room with someone who abused them and possibly in the same home where they were abused. And that's very triggering. That's very difficult. Speaker 1: Yes, it is. And, and it doesn't get any easier. Another woman comes to mind who said, you know, that she sits by her brother every day or every Sunday at church, and she's always crying and people believe she's crying because she's moved by the service. And actually she's just, she's overwhelmed with feelings about the abuse that he has denied and continues to deny. So it's, it's, gosh, it's so painful. But there, there can be healing. Um, what, what did your mother, how did your mother handle it? Speaker 2: Well, I told her, I wanna say I was around age 24 when I was still pushing it off. It was just two kids. It just, it ha it happened. Uh, um, and I kind of said it in passing, and she cried. She said, I believe you, but where was I? Where was I? And then she started questioning. She said, but he's a good kid. He, he always knew right from wrong. There was a lot of confusion. And then I pushed it back. I put it back in its box, and we didn't talk about it for years. And then when it reared its ugly head in my current marriage mm-hmm. , um, she didn't understand. I said, I need to come forward. I need, I need to talk about this. I need to come forward. And she, she said, you need to forgive him. You need to forgive him. Speaker 2: And I said, I don't need to do anything. I will forgive him when I'm ready on my own terms. And she gave me the books on forgiveness, and I rolled my eyes. You can't, you can't force that. And she said, what about his family? And I screamed at her. I said, his family. Yeah, yeah. Because unfortunately, I took him, I was angry at him. I was angry at my husband. I was angry at my, my siblings wife. I was angry at my siblings children, and I pushed them all aside mm-hmm. . And they didn't understand why I was pushing them away. They didn't know mm-hmm. . So I did come to terms with it, and I did forgive my brother on my terms when I was ready. And then I reached out to my mom and I said, I forgave him. And there was relief in her voice mm-hmm. Speaker 2: . And then she realized, oh, now I've got my own journey of forgiveness. And she had to follow her own journey. And she was at the TEDx, she was in the audience. She didn't know what I was going to say. And, but by the time she was at the TEDx, I think she was in a good place. Um, she loves both of her children. It's, it's a very tough position to be in. And there were times when I said, I don't wanna be in the same room with him. And that was really hard for her. Mm-hmm. . So she seems to be on her own journey, and I think she's into the point where she's been able to accept it and, and sees why I'm being so public and understands why I am so public. Speaker 1: So what's been the changes in your life? I mentioned in the intro that you have over half a million views. What, how has your life changed since the TEDx and, and what are your plans for the future as this, as you, as you run this marathon? Speaker 2: Yes. It, it, I'm still running the marathon. Expect I, the finish line keeps moving. I, I actually heard from another survivor yesterday via email because it came across the TEDx. And so people are finding me through the TEDx and, and when they find me through the TEDx, I'm able to get them into Facebook support groups. I'm able to get them resources. So I know that they're in a community of people that's been, you know, I think when we can help others that help heal us mm-hmm. , um, I am, I'm still writing my memoir. It's so, so close. I have a children's book that I've, I've submitted. I'm waiting to hear back if they will publish it or not. That's what's on my radar right now. I am slowing down a little bit. I try and be supportive within the Facebook groups. I, I'm trying to, um, answer all my social media messages because I get a lot of social media messages. A lot of people on TikTok, unfortunately, a lot of my people are on TikTok. They're a younger age. Speaker 2: I'm slowing down a little bit. One, I'm tired. Two, I have two teenage boys who are in 10th grade, and they will be leaving me in three years. So I'm trying to be very, very present with them and enjoy them. Sure. And I just kind of show up wherever I'm needed and trying to, to support Five waves and, and keep that momentum going and, and just raising more awareness through five. Nobody's selling anything. We're not trying to, you know, obviously we're looking for donations, but, you know, we're not selling anything. We're not making any money. We're just trying to raise awareness and, and collaborate. We're having more and more people reach out wanting to volunteer with us, which is great. 'cause we're five people mm-hmm. . And yeah. I'm just looking forward to a day when there's more survivors who feel comfortable coming forward. And, and honestly, I I welcome hearing from those who caused harm too. Um, I feel we've received a couple emails. If, Speaker 1: If someone wanted to donate or volunteer or just, I mean, can you give the names of the Facebook groups or do they reach out to you? How, how is that, how do you want them to do that? Right. Speaker 2: (32:14) The 5WAVES.org website. Okay. You can email us there. You can contact us if you're, if you're, if you're a parent, if you're a survivor, if you're someone who's caused harm, you can email us there. And then also on that website, we have Facebook groups and, and we, we try and respond to every email that we can. Yeah. So that's where I'm headed right now. I kind of show up where I am needed . Speaker 1: And so I'm a great admirer of yours. And I, because I think you did this TEDx for a really good reason. Um, and I mean, and, and a very honorable reason. And so, uh, that I, I admire greatly. Speaker 2: Well, thank you. And I admire you as much. I I think that we, I I was looking forward to this interview and I told my husband this morning, I said, this'll be a great interview because she, she's informed and she knows what she's talking about. She's done the research, she's done the homework. So I really appreciate it. Speaker 1: Oh, well, thank you. Take very good care. Thank you. Speaker 1: I know you could tell from Jane's interview just how sincere and how passionate she is about getting this message out. And we at SelfWork wanted to help her do just that. The organization Jane refers to in the interview is the worldwide awareness, voice, education, and support. Better known as 5WAVES.org. And the five is not spelled out, is a numeral. So 5WAVES.org give if you can. It's a 5 0 1 3 C. So it's a nonprofit. And I wanna thank Jane and all other survivors of abuse who come forward. It takes tremendous courage to do so. Thank you for being here at SelfWork today. Please take care of yourself, your loved ones, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret, and this has been SelfWork.

Hello my friends! This September (2023) we're giving away two(2) copies of a little book Christine Mathias and I worked on called Marriage Is Not For Chickens. A post by the same name, when it appeared in HuffPost, earned over 200,000 views and over 50,000 shares... Wow! (Of course, I didn't get a call to be on a morning talk show... lolol) This book may take you two minutes to read because it's meant to be a gift for someone who's getting married or deciding to commit to a relationship - or maybe to someone who's having an anniversary. The photos that fit all 24 statements of "what marriage is" and "what marriage is not" were either taken by Christine or my old high school friend Deborah Strauss. The images are breath-taking, poignant, evocative, or simply "right." We're very proud of it - and hope it will give you and yours joy. So, all you have to do is leave a written review on the SelfWork page on Apple Podcasts to be included in the drawing! But I realized, you might need to hear what it's all about. So that's what today's quick YGTG (You Get The Gist) is all about! Listen in, smile, and I hope you enter the contest - so you can give it away, keep it, or have fun with it in some way or the other. Vital Links: Dr. Margaret's TEDxBocaRaton Talk (now with 155,000 views!) You can listen to Dr. Margaret's TEDxBocaRaton Talk on perfectly hidden depression and the Immediate need for greater transparency in talking about emotional pain and suicidal feelings. You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you!    

We certainly have had – and the world has had – our fair share of reasons to grieve. Wherever you live, you felt the fear and loss of the pandemic. Add on to that, the impact of hurricanes, tornados, drought, fires, floods,  war, racism, political unrest, violence… we've got it all - some countries more than others. But these events are also a backdrop for whatever happens in our personal lives – people who we've loved dying, losing a job, having to move or even to escape from where you've lived, developing a severe mental or physical illness or one that's chronically debilitating, being abused… The list goes on and on. And we need to grieve. Yet, one of the ironies  is that the model we've been taught – in a very “this is how you should be grieving” kind of way – was created to help us understand what the person dying might feel and wasn't created to describe the grief of people who are alive and grieving loss. What's grief really like? How do the stages that Kübler-Ross help? How do they hurt? What are the effects of your culture or faith alter your experience of grief? How is the Internet changing the way we grieve? The listener email for today is from a woman whose sense of emotional stability has decreased after the death of her father – and she has no relationship with her mom. She uses the term, “I feel orphaned.” So as always, we'll talk about what you can do about it. Before we go on,  I'd like to invite you to listen and watch my TEDxBocaRaton talk.. Here's one of the many reviews… "Dr. Rutherford, what a beautiful talk. I watched it several times. We can all learn to recognize the signs and be ready to support those who might be silently struggling. This TEDx talk is a powerful reminder to be more attentive to the people around us, listen beyond the surface, and offer support without judgment." Click here to listen! Advertisers Links: Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has a special offer for you now! Vital Links: Heidi Bastian's article in The Atlantic Article: It's Time To Let The Five Stages of Grief Die Dr. Franco's article on cultural differences in grief. You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript:  Intro: This is SelfWork and I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Ruthford. I'm so glad you're here. I started this podcast almost seven years ago now to extend the walls of my practice to those of you who are already interested maybe in therapy or you were just interested in psychological stuff, to those of you who might have just been diagnosed or you're looking for some answers. And to those of you who might just be a little skeptical about the whole mental health horizon, so welcome, welcome to all of you. We certainly have had, and the world has had their fair share of reasons to grieve recently. Wherever you live, you felt the fear and loss of the pandemic. Add onto that, the impact of hurricanes, tornadoes, drought, fires, floods, war, racism, political unrest, violence - we've got it all - some countries more than others, but these events are also a backdrop for whatever happens in our personal lives, people who we've loved dying, we lose a job, we have to move or even you, you have to escape where you've lived. You develop a severe mental or physical illness or or that's chronically debilitating or someone you love does or you're being abused. The list goes on and on and we need to grieve. And yet one of the ironies, and what I want to address in today's SelfWork is that the model we've had taught to us in a very "this is how you should be grieving" kind of way, was initially met or designed to describe the stages of grief for the person who is terminally ill or dying themselves. It's Elizabeth Kübler Ross's five stages of grief. It was never meant for the people who were alive in grieving a loss. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. What's grief really like? How did the stages that Kübler Ross suggests help? How do they hurt? What are the effects of your culture or faith and how does that alter your experience of grief? How is the internet changing the way we grieve? That's an interesting kind of subject. The listener mail for today is from a woman whose sense of emotional stability has decreased after the death of her father, and she has no relationship with her mom. She uses the term, "I feel orphaned." I've heard so many people say this, so we're gonna talk about it today on SelfWork. Before we go on, I'd like to invite you to listen and watch my TEDxBocaRaton talk. Here's one of the many reviews, "Dr. Margaret Rutherford. What a beautiful talk. I watched it several times. We can all learn to recognize the signs and be ready to support those who might be silently struggling. This TEDx talk is a powerful reminder to be more attentive to the people around us. Listen beyond the surface and offer support without judgment. Together we can break mental health stigma and create a more compassionate and understanding society." So I will have the link in the show notes or you can just put in Dr. Margaret Rutherford TEDx and it'll lead you right with my YouTube. And of course, if you like it, please say you do or check that off and even leave a review. I'm beginning to get asked to speak about perfectly in depression directly because of this TEDx talk. And so that's a wonderful and very helpful way you can help me spread what I believe is a very important message. Thanks, my gratitude to y'all. Episode Elizabeth Kübler-Ross, the psychiatrist who first developed and wrote about five stages of grief, gathered her ideas from conversations with dying patients. She talked to them and she watched the grief that they go through. And yet it was snapped up by others to describe what everyone who is grieving must go through. In fact, it doesn't make a lot of sense when you think of it and it's even becomes something you should be going through, which is really ridiculous. For one thing, the stages are interactive, but somehow people have felt bad that those stages weren't part of their experience. In an article put out by McGill entitled, it's Time to Let the Five Stages of Grief Die. The author state and I quote while she was a psychiatry resident in New York, Kubler Ross realized how little attention was paid by hospital staff to terminally ill patients and how little medical knowledge there was regarding the psychological aspects besetting patients facing death. She worked extensively with terminally ill patients throughout her medical school career and continued to study and teach about such topics. She was also criticized by academic researchers for not running a real study. Instead, she used conversations with a dying as her basis for putting the stages forth and wanting medical staff to be a better attuned to what was going on with these patients. Now, what are those stages that she was describing? You may have thought I needed to know this way before now, but here we go. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. She asserted that these stages weren't rigid. You could feel or express them at any time. Denial that you were dying or that you had a serious illness might make you not seek treatment or refuse treatment. Keep how serious your illness was out of your consciousness. Anger is the second one, anger that it feels unfair that you're not ready to die, that you have more life to live. The third one is bargaining. If I can just get better, I'll never do X, Y, or Z again, or I'll start doing X, Y, or Z. Then there's depression, sadness over past choices, sadness over not having control, sadness that you're leaving the people you love, the life you've been fulfilled by and thus acceptance, realizing there's truly no more you can do. Acceptance that you won't see your grandchild born or your kid graduating from high school. Of course, how you grieve is shaped so much by the culture you live in or in the rituals, the religion you follow or that you have faith in general. Dr. Marissa Franco, who we've had here as SelfWork as a guest, she's really cool, writes in Psychology Today that research suggests that when we're helping our loved ones cope with grief, we should consider what they find. Most supportive people in the Asian and Asian American communities for example, may prefer spending time with close others without talking about their grief. While people in the European American community may want more explicit emotional support. So she's pointing out that we need to understand and be aware of how a certain person may be grieving, how their culture influences them, how their faith influences them, and what you may need or want to do to be respectful of that because that's what's important. Even with the best of intentions, you may make someone's experience of grief more difficult or if they really want that kind of support from you, they want to talk about their loved one who's gone. Then you hold back obvious emotional support and you don't wanna do that, or at least most of us don't. actually to know what's truly helpful. You could of course ask and not assume, how would you like for me to support you? So what role does a belief in life after death have on grief? I looked at several different studies but was drawn to one whose results showed that people reporting no spiritual belief had not resolved their grief. By 14 months after the death, participants with strong spiritual beliefs resolved their grief progressively over the same period. And then people with low levels of belief showed little change in the first nine months but thereafter resolved their grief. So basically a spiritual belief seemed to increase the likelihood that you'll resolve your grief earlier and even a small bit of relief helped to resolve grief more quickly. That's important. But let me quickly say that's not necessarily been what I've seen in my own clients, and I've watched many people grieve. Because so much of what matters is the timing or the way someone died. Did you have a chance to do what's called anticipatory grieving? Allowing yourself to feel what it's going to feel like to lose someone you love, whether you got to say goodbye, whether you feel to blame or partially responsible for their death or you were told that you were responsible. Grief can often challenge your belief in some of these instances. If there's a God, then how did this happen? Now for those of you listening who say, if you believe in heaven, if you believe in life after death or if your religion is Buddhist or Hindu or whatever it is, that may of course be very comforting. I'm not saying that, but here's an example. I worked with a man years ago whose alcoholic parents had told him he was to blame for a sibling's death when he had been only a child himself. When it occurred they were inside drinking and this 10 year old boy was tasked with watching his four younger siblings and one of them got hit by a car. So obviously when you're blamed, when you have a terrible time processing your own grief, or maybe you lose contact with others who you might be grieving with, you've got to go back to college or you've got a new job or you've quickly moved to a new home. So those that you might be grieving with are no longer there. Of course, our modern technology helps with that, but still, but there's also the possibility that you are not even allowed to speak of your mom who died because your father has remarried. So many factors affect your grief, how you are encouraged to express it or how you're not allowed to do so again, faith, a certain structure of what happens after death. If you believe, that can certainly be helpful, but from my perspective at in my experience, that suddenly you just don't grieve. That's far too simplistic. Let's stop for a moment for a brief message and offer from BetterHelp where you just might turn in this kind of grieving situation or time. BetterHelp Ad I recently heard a fascinating reframe for the idea of asking for help. Maybe you view asking for help as something someone does who's falling apart or who isn't strong. So consider this. What if asking for help means that you won't let anything get in your way of solving an issue, finding out an answer or discovering a better direction? Asking for help is much more about your determination to recognize what needs your attention or what is getting in your way of having the life you want better help. The number one online therapy provider makes reaching out about as easy as it can get. Within 48 hours, you'll have a professional licensed therapist with whom you can text, email, or talk with to guide you and you're not having to comb through therapist websites or drive to appointments. It's convenient, inexpensive, and readily available. Now you can find a therapist that fits your needs with better help and if you use the code or link betterhelp.com/selfwork, you get 10% off your first month of sessions. So just do it. You'll be glad you did that. Link again is betterhelp.com/selfwork to get 10% off your first month of surfaces. Episode Continues Sometimes when I'm looking into a topic like I did today, I realize that someone has said something born from their their own experience and expertise that I just can't say better. So when I read this Atlantic article by a grieving mother who's also a researcher, Heidi Bastian, I knew I was having that experience again. She went looking after her 38 year old son's sudden death for help. She found everything from you'll never survive This grief to the idea that there is a time period when grief will be at its strongest but will abate. I want to share this with you because it's the wisest thing I've read on my journey to bring you this episode. So I'm going to be directly quoting from Heidi Bastian's Atlantic article, and if you want to read all of it, I will have it in the show notes. So I quote, "For most people, after most deaths, grief starts to ease after a few weeks and continues to reduce. From there, there can still be tough times ahead, but in most circumstances, by the time you reach six months, you're unlikely to be in a constant state of severe grief. Although most people will experience grief when they lose someone close to them, they won't be overwhelmed by it. For roughly half the bereaved grief is mild or moderate and then subsides among those who experience high levels of grief at the outset, distress will usually begin to ease in a few weeks or months to, it's not a straight line where each day is better than the one before, but the overall level of suffering does go down over time" "Some bereaved people thought about 10% according to the research will be in severe grief for six months or longer. The risk of remaining in deep grief for more than a year is higher for those under socioeconomic stress or who experience the loss of a spouse and it's even higher still after the loss of a child or a sudden death via accident, suicide or homicide." That's kind of what I was saying before. So for example, I worked with someone last year who lost her older child in a plane wreck and her husband was also on that plane  - and he survived. So where does grief get expressed in that family? Often grieve isn't a solo event others lived through. So again, is there a right way to grieve? No, no, no. Also, to chime in with Ms. Bastian, I have found that grief sort of comes in waves and I've talked about this on the podcast. And you'll wonder and even be afraid what's happening when you get hit by what seems like a stronger wave than ever when your grief had been subsiding. "Oh my, I'm going all the way back to where I was in the first place." That's not my experience with grief. Grief comes in waves and some are stronger than others and then all of a sudden you can get hit by a rogue wave when you get triggered in some way. That's also grief. But let's talk about when it becomes more severe in penetrating, and I'm gonna go back to Miss Bastian's article. "Adults who face this long-running, even severe distress are experiencing what many clinicians and researchers term prolonged or complicated grief. This increases their chances of having serious mental and physical health problems, including premature death and suicidal thoughts. Even if we don't personally know someone who died within a couple of years of a major loss, we've probably all heard stories of it". So back to just me talking , there is a new diagnosis called complicated grief and it's still very controversial 'cause it seems to be pathologizing really deep grief and they give it some sort of one year cutoff. If you're still grieving after one year, then you should be given a diagnosis of complicated grief. The Washington Post op-ed argued why set expectations on its pace or texture. Why pathologize love? Now I'm back to Miss Bastian. Okay, so basically Adam was the name of her son, and I'm gonna go back to this part of her article. "When Adam died, I needed hope that a vibrant life was within my reach. The science showed me that it might be closer than I could even imagine. So I tried to look forward, forward as I did so I held onto a thought about my boy that helped me face a future without him." And this is incredibly profound. So please listen closely. Ms. Baston: "He had loved me his whole life, that love is precious and it's for keeps. I will not waste it." So what she seems to be saying is she's reached a space or place in her heart and her mind where emotionally dying herself from the pain of losing her son would devalue his love for her. I remember a woman I worked with many years ago or several years ago, lost her daughter in a tragic accident, completely shocking and a little more than a year after her death, she went to a wedding of one of her daughter's really good friends and they had a picture of her daughter there because she was supposed to have been in the wedding. And she came back into therapy and said something very similar to Ms. Bastian. She said, "I realized I was there because everyone there had loved my daughter and I loved my daughter, and I was there to honor her as hard as it was for her to go." Deciding you're not going to emotionally die along with your your son or your brother, or your mother or your friend is so important. I see this so much. It's a choice to continue living and in so doing, honoring the person who died. I get a Christmas card every year, in fact, from a family I saw years ago, a couple who'd lost their second child days after his birth.One of them became very angry as his faith was temporarily shattered. The other focused on their living child while also grieving and they had a bit of struggle trying to understand and accept that their separate ways of grieving was okay, that neither had to give up or change their grieving pattern to appease the other. I've seen this difference in grief often within a couple. It's not wrong, it's normal and natural in their card. I noticed immediately another child that had been born, I'm sure they still grieve the child that didn't live, but it doesn't seem to be stopping them from living and connecting to their life. Now, if you're struggling, then please do seek help. If you're stuck, you can get unstuck, but you may need someone who understands that there's no correct recipe for grief. You simply may need help through compassion and gathering hope. Listener Email: Here's our listener email for today. Hi, Dr. Rutherford. I listened to your podcast many times and I love it. I'm 49. I escaped my mom physically to be leaving Israel 23 years ago. I've done extensive work on myself and now I'm in the process of writing a book. Since my dad passed away three years ago also in Israel, I've been re-experiencing feeling wise, returned anxiety, depression, and I'm not as grounded and solid in my place in life. It's all subjective. I have a great family, friends and a husband, but I feel orphaned and guilty for being a bad daughter to my mom, feeling sort of lonely. I'm in California and would love to connect on better help. She didn't realize I couldn't do that. The book writing is obviously triggering, but at the same time I have to do it. I love writing. So again, this was another message that was sent to me on my email, askdrmargaret@drmargaretrutherford.com and I  invite you to do so. But as I read this, the first analogy that came to mind as this listener was talking about how writing a book, I'm assuming about her struggles as a child in Israel is very triggering for her. Of course it is often when people tell me they don't want to journal, but I might be suggesting it. What they say is, "I don't know what it'll be like to actually see things in black and white." Or I also hear, "What if someone finds it?" The first question I answer by saying they're absolutely correct. It's often difficult to see your feelings on paper to write down the painful experiences you had. It brings them much more to the surface. You bet it's hard. Here's the analogy I've used. So if your memories are held in a big iron soup pod on the stove and they've been simmering very, very slowly for years with the top on, so slowly they've barely even created any steam, but now you're opening the lid and you might get a huge cloud of steam that reflects those experiences and you have a sudden painful reaction, but you leave the lid off and the puddle settle down again, right? It'll go back to a simmer. In fact, you might not be able to smell anything at all when you got a huge whiff when you first opened the pot. But what if you continue to stir the pot with every one of those stirs some of the smells of your past, the emotions and memories that belong to what happened will become stronger. Therapy's almost always about stirring the pot, talking with friends, however you communicated. However you begin to reveal yourself is stirring the pot and journaling, or certainly writing a book is also doing the same thing. But there's one other factor. The death of her father and she doesn't describe their relationship, just says he was also in Israel. But that death may be very symbolically reminding her of the many losses she's experienced, maybe her dad's voice helped her feel that she'd done what she needed to do to protect herself from her mom. Maybe she's simply grieving that her dad is also gone. I'm not sure, but all of this sounds normal to me. Given the circumstance, estranging yourself from a parent or a sibling due to the damaging impact they had on you. When that estrangement is about self-protection, it's complicated. It can be a relief in many ways, but it's very sad as well. I hope this listener goes to better help or a local therapist to get some of the feedback that she seems to need. Outro: Once again, thank you for being here. I wanna remind you we're doing a little giveaway. If you'll leave a review, an actual written review on Apple Podcasts, then I'm gonna choose two of those reviewers to get a book. Marriage is Not for Chickens, and what I'm gonna do, I realize that many of you probably don't even know what I'm talking about. So in a YGTG coming up in just a couple of days, I'll actually read the book to you. It takes about maybe two and a half minutes , it's a little book meant to be a gift or a little anniversary, something special present or a getting married present. And I know we have a lot of following winter weddings coming up, or like I say, just anniversaries. It's a fun little gift. My communications manager, Christine Mathias, who's also this incredible photographer, she and I did it and she did a lot of the pictures and certainly did a lot of the framing of those. And I had a friend from way long ago also contribute to the photography. But the post itself, actually when it was in the Huffington Post, it earned 200,000 views and 50,000 shares. And of course, I didn't get invited on Good Morning America or , any of those. I guess if you're writing about something happy, that doesn't happen, but I'm gonna give away two copies to two people who leave written reviews for the month of September. So have at it. Let me know what you think about SelfWork, whether that's to say, oh, I wish you didn't do this so much, or you know, whatever I really need and want your feedback. Thanks so much and subscribe. Get onto my new website at drmargaretruthford.com. Look around. It's a lot of fun and if you subscribe there, then you'll get my weekly newsletter. That's it, I promise. But it has some interesting things that I'm doing or ideas I have things that you could be a part of on my Facebook page, that's facebook.com/groups/ self-work. Sometimes we get together for discussions, that kind of thing. But all in all, thank you for being here today. Please take very good care of you, of that family you love, and friends that you love, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret and this has been SelfWork.  

I was shocked to see this past week that I'd never done an episode on the four most well-researched communication patterns that can predict a couple will divorce or end their relationship.  And I talk about them in couples therapy all the time! These four have been written about extensively by the well-known pair of researchers John and Julie Gottman – and I think their work is right on target, given what I sadly see on a regular basis in my office. And I'll offer the most recent ways these four distinct behaviors can appear in the modern partnership. Sadly, if you or your partner don't see these things as problems, then that is a tremendous issue. But if you're not aware of the danger of these, then you may not know the quicksand your relationship is in – and sinking fast. The listener voicemail is from someone who was taught that everything in her life had to appear “perfect” – even saying that if someone comes over for dinner, there need to be five courses and the house has got to be spotless. That is truly a prison and she wants out! But… she lives in the same city as her mother – who taught her all this – and she fears moving away from those choices and what her mother's reactions might be. I so love the questions y'all send in so keep them coming! Advertisers Links: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just click here! Make sure you use the code “selfwork10” to check out free product Click HERE for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 – with bonus product with your subscription! Vital Links: Article describing the original Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you!   Episode Transcript Dr. Margaret: This is SelfWork and I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork' we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. I'm so glad you're here. I hope you've enjoyed the last few interviews. I thought especially Dr. Priyanka Wali's interview was really fascinating, a doctor and a comedian. She also just had some wonderful thoughts  - that was last week. Hope you get a chance to listen to that if you haven't. I was commenting on an Instagram post the other day about someone giving their partner this silent treatment, which is something we all hear about. And I was looking for podcast episodes I'd done on marriage. I thought surely there'd be a whole bunch of them. And to my shock. I found ONE  on stonewalling, but not much else. I was really looking for talking about problems in marriages that cause maybe divorce or something like that. And there are actually very well researched bad habits. There are four of them that can predict divorce. So that's the topic for today. These four have been written about extensively by the well-known pair of researchers, John and Julie Gottman, and I think their work is right on target, given what I sadly see on a regular basis in my office. We'll focus on the Gottman's four candidates and you can see what you and your partner may be guilty of. Sadly, if you or your partner don't see these things as problems, then that itself is a tremendous issue. But if you're not aware of the danger of these habits, then you may not know the quicksand your relationship actually could be in and you could be sinking fast. Now, I'm not a researcher, but I'll also add a few more thoughts of my own about what these look like in the modern 2023 relationships. The listener voicemail is from someone who was taught that everything in her life had to appear perfect. Even saying that if someone comes over for dinner, there need to be five courses and the house has got to be spotless. That's truly a prison and she wants out, but she lives in the same city as her mother who taught her all this, and she fears moving away from those choices and what her mother's reactions might be. I love these questions that y'all send in. So please send a message over SpeakPipe, which is a voicemail, and I get to listen to your inflections and your voices and I love that. And the SpeakPipe option is in your show notes, but it's also on my website, drmargaretrutherford.com. It's right at the top. Let's hear first from SelfWorknsponsor Magnesium breakthrough. Ad from Magnesium Breakthrough I hope you truly enjoyed some time with family and friends this summer and got to take a break from the daily grind and enjoy your life. Perhaps you've indulged a bit on ice cream to beat the heat or a margarita or two. Gosh, lots of indulgence may become the norm, but now kids are back in school and it's time to get back on track. If you struggle to return to your health routine, there are three major things to prioritize healthy eating, exercise, and above all, quality sleep. 'cause sleep is the key to your body's rejuvenation and repair process. It actually controls hunger and weight loss hormones, boosts energy levels, and it impacts countless other functions. That's why I take magnesium daily, but not any supplement. I got magnesium breakthrough because it's just better. It's made by BIOptimizers and I highly recommend it. It has seven forms of magnesium designed to help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. And guess what? If you get more sleep, you're gonna find out that your healthy eating and exercise may be a little easier to do. So visit magbreakthrough.com/ self-work. Don't forget to enter code selfwork10 for 10% off any order. Once again, it's magbreakthrough.com/selfwork. Body of Episode: So let's talk about ways that you can really screw up your marriage, Dr. Margaret – Speaker 2 Marital work or couples work. Any kind of couple really is something I love to do. It's very challenging to help both people feel heard and understood - not always agreed with of course, but as long as I don't have one or both people looking at me and saying, “Please help them see how wrong they are”. , I feel pretty hopeful  - in most cases at least. But sometimes that's exactly what's on one or both people's agenda. They've come to therapy way after they should have, it's really, it's not too late, but gosh, they've come in after multiple fights and threats of divorce or “I'm taking the children”,  after affairs or betrayals of some kind have happened, be they financial or emotional or whatever. And they sit and argue in front of me at least for a while. I allow it to go on because I want to see the pattern that is as long as it doesn't get physically or verbally assaulted. If it does, I have to cool things down and sometimes this is what I'll do. To cool them down. I'll ask them both, “What do you think are the four greatest predictors of divorce?” Usually I get answers like fighting or your in-laws or trust kinds of answers. And that's not wrong. But the best research out there, in fact, the most rigorous that  has been done is by Julie and John Gottman and what they call the four horsemen of the apocalypse  - in this case, meaning the end of the partnership or marriage, are well-regarded as true predictors in the field of psychology. So I look at the couple and by now they have kind of settled down, because remember, they probably wouldn't be in my office if they truly wanted a divorce. So they're open to hear, “Well, okay, what are the predictors?” And I say very slowly in order of importance. Stonewalling is number four. That's when one or both of you goes for hours or days refusing to communicate with the other. Usually someone looks kind of sheepish at that point. They may have even told me there are times, like even days, we barely say anything to each other because it's such a relief from the fighting. Or I've seen people kind of smirk like somehow stonewalling their partner is a really cool way to gain control works every time they'll say, which I would usually answer, “Well, if it worked really well, I don't think you'd be here.”  What's number three..Blaming. And not to be mean, but to make my point. I'll repeat a few phrases from what I've just listened to that I would call blaming. Or when you don't take your share or the responsibility for whatever problems there are, you're focused on the other one you think you're not or never to blame or you're quick to blame, you don't apologize. You're quick to angrily yell, “Whose fault is this? Who did this? “ So, your focus is mostly on other people and what they're doing wrong and not taking responsibility for yourself. Number two, let me let you think, if you can guess for a second, what could be number two, it's close to blaming…criticism - and now the room is getting even more quiet. What's the difference between blaming and criticizing? They usually are wrapped up together, but you can have one or the other that predominates like blaming is this is your fault. “This wouldn't have happened if you hadn't X, Y, or Z.” Where criticism isn't as much about fault, but about correcting them saying they're wrong. And you're right, you can hear shades of gaslighting here. “Why didn't you pay that bill?” Or, “ Why do you change the baby's diaper that way?” Lots of why questions, which puts everybody on the defense by the way, and why questions that infer criticism or there's downright criticism – “ The way you did that was just dumb” or labeling your partner, “You're so lazy “or bringing in the kids, “The children are on my side” here, or “All our friends agree with me.” Making sure you establish yourself as more right than your partner. More put together. You're like a healthier, more likable human being. So that gives you the right to criticize your partner. I think the worst thing, no, not the worst, maybe the funniest in many ways was one couple came in and they have one of those strings that come down in their garage so when they pull in, they know when to stop, you know, it kind of hits their windshield. And she was saying that thing would hit the windshield. He had a certain timing that if she didn't turn off the car like two seconds after that or a second after that, he told her, “You just don't know how to park.” It was really a little trivial . She wasn't running into the wall. So what do you think the last one is? Guesses. The last one is contempt. Now what does contempt sound like? And I either pull from what they've already said or I make up my own examples. Like , “I can't believe I married someone like you. No one would ever guess just how disgusting you can be.” “How could you be so stupid?” Or it can be nonverbal stuff l- ike eye-rolling. But it's you have a disdain, a contempt, a huge disrespect for the other person. So this couple is sitting in front of me now looking maybe a little ashamed, maybe a little surprised, maybe a little shocked. And a few seconds later, one of them might say to me, “We do all of those.” And I say, “So we've got our work cut out for us, right?”  But guess what? Sometimes one of them will say, “Well, I never do any of those things”, or I” wouldn't do it if she didn't do it or he didn't do it or they didn't do it Well guess what? That's blaming, right? or even contempt. And I point that out. Oh, so you just blamed her for all the problems or him. Now before I go on, let me say that we probably all make these errors. We all have bad days. We say mean things. We may even know what criticisms to use that will really get our partner something like, you know, you're sounding just like your mother. Oh, I thought you told me you were gonna try to change that in Margaret's office. I don't really see it. That's contempt and we use it on purpose. But if a couple doesn't see these four things as problems or one of them doesn't or refuses to, that may likely reflect that there's true emotional abuse going on, which of course reflects another level of problem. It's not a bad habit that they've gotten into that's gotten out of hand. It could be a choice to be in control and sabotage the worth and emotional stability of your partner and the absolute denial of blame or responsibility for any problem can be a destructive character trait that may not respond to therapeutic suggestion at all. Like in some of the personality disorders, borderline histrionic, narcissistic sociopathic, some of those problems if you are married to someone like that or partnered with them, it can take them some time to understand the impact they have on others if they can at all. But that's not the topic for today. We're talking about two pretty normal folks who've just gotten into some bad habits and may not recognize the horrible impact they can have. One couple comes to mind immediately, but before I talk about them, let's hear from AG1. Your support of these products helps us make and produce SelfWork. So remember that as you listen and if you think it might benefit you, then please go for it. AG1 Advertisement Our next partner is AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. I drink it literally every day. I gave AG1 a try because I wanted a single solution that supports my entire body and covers my nutritional bases every day. I wanted better gut health, a boost in energy immune system support. I take it in the morning before starting my day and I make sure and leave it out for my husband because he tends to forget. I love knowing that I'm starting my day so incredibly well and I wouldn't change a thing because it's really helped me the last two or three years I've taken it. And here's a fact, since 2010, they've improved their formula 52 times in the pursuit of making this nutrition supplement possible and the best it can be. So if you wanna take ownership of your health, it starts with ag one. Try ag one and get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkAG1.com/selfwork and that's a new link. DrinkAG1.com/selfwork. Check it out. Speaker 2: Okay, so back to this couple. They came in only a few times together. She'd come to therapy to talk about feeling blamed for her husband's affairs that he'd had for years. “But he doesn't call them affairs,” she said,  “They're all prostitutes. He says he only goes once a month. Sometimes they have sex, but most of the time he simply wants to be held. But he says it's my fault because I don't make love with him the right way, but I do love him and I'm willing to try.” I'd asked her if he'd come in with her and much to my surprise, he said yes he would. When he came in, he looked and sounded extremely depressed and sure enough he'd had treatment after treatment for depression. He tried all kinds of medicines. He'd even tried E C T, which is electroconvulsive therapy, and he was still suicidal. Frequently. I won't go into all of his story, but there was definite emotional abuse in his childhood by his mother and in therapy he stated that he hated himself for going to these prostitutes, hated his inability to stop, hated himself so much that that's what was behind the suicidality. This is an interesting fact. He'd never told any of the other treating doctors about this self-loathing or this behavior around going to prostitutes and how it was likely tied to continued suicidal thinking. Instead, he opted to keep going and keep hating himself and blaming his wife who he said he loved. He was so sad to hear and watch these two people in these patterns. I tried to give them both as much understanding and support as I could while also not justifying the hurt he was causing. What he couldn't see was how his present, very painful behavior was strongly linked or at least could be strongly linked to his anger, never expressed against his own mother. Just look at it. He could express disdain and contempt for a woman, his wife, while still receiving comfort from both her and the prostitutes. He hinted that there were other painful secrets he was keeping. He could almost see it. I could see it in his eyes, but then he looked at me when I suggested treatment like I was out of my mind. I even found a one week intensive program that served professionals like him. No one would have to know or suspect anything, but he was on a vacation. His wife looked hopeful. He never came back. His wife came in one more time. She said, “This is my last session. I think coming to you was the worst thing I could have done. All you talked about were the painful things in our marriage and we have a really great marriage.” I listened and told her I understood that I regretted if she felt that it only focused on their pain and she left. Speaker 2: You could hear the problems, the four horsemen of the apocalypse. They would go a long time without talking to one another. He blamed her for a lot of his behavior, but he also hated himself. He was very critical of her. And of course there was some contempt as well as he didn't understand why she just couldn't accept his behavior. And I do remember looking at her and saying, that is an option for you to just accept that this is what is going on. And she said, I'll try, but I don't know. But obviously when she came in and was angry with me or that's where she focused, her anger was on me, which is okay, you know, that happens. She needed to feel like they had a really great marriage and you know, they're probably still married to one another now in the community. This couple is considered a great couple, but neither of them were at a place where they could see or chose to look for what was underneath their very painful patterns with each other. I said earlier that I was gonna talk about some other more modern versions of these problems, so I'll do that now. Stonewalling, for example, it's basic withdrawal in order to feel in control. Non-communication. I think this can take the form interestingly enough of an intense focus on children where your child's life takes up so much of your time, you quote unquote, barely have any energy for your partner. Or it could be about work - you stonewall through work. Your attention to work could be so dominant in the relationship and you can justify it, right? Somebody's gotta make a living around here. But you can see perhaps that both could be related to stonewalling or they have a similar effect. You are not available for your partner, which you justify by saying that the children or your work or your major responsibility, but all the conflict you might have arguing, the criticism, the blaming, none of that ever gets worked out. You don't sit down and have a talk with one another about what's going on between the two of you. Now, it could also be in the form of absorption and video games or Instagram or TikTok. These can also draw you completely away from the relationship as you spend hours isolating from your partner and attaching instead to this virtual reality, which can seem so much more interesting than what's happening or not happening at home. T he other three, blaming, criticism and contempt are basic bad attitudes or habits that I imagine have been part of every generation and every era. Sadly, they have also been culturally acceptable historically, especially men treating women that way in relationships. And I'm sure there are examples of women treating men that way. In fact, I know that in certain families that consider the woman more powerful, that it is culturally acceptable for her to treat him badly. And then of course you can look for support for these behaviors, the blaming, criticism and contempt by socializing with other people who blame and criticize and show immense contempt for reasons they justify. This sort of blaming and criticism and contempt is destructive in a culture and it's certainly destructive in a partnership. The four horsemen of the apocalypse, stonewalling, blaming, criticism and contempt, they herald or predict the end of what was once treasured. Please think about them in your own life, in your beliefs and in your relationships. Voicemail announcement Speak pipe message from drmargaretrutherford.com. Dr. Margaret Let's hear from a listener from Canada. Voicemail from listener: Hi Dr. Margaret. So I am 37 and a mother of three kids and my question to you is, I was told by a therapist a couple years ago that I am a perfectionist and that's why it's stopping me from applying from jobs, which I always think I'll never be good enough for. I rarely invite people over because I feel like the house should be super clean and it there should be a five course meal. This was something I've learned from my mother. She's very focused on how our family appears to the exterior, to other people. I've been trying to rewire myself, so I don't feel that. But however, inside I don't feel good doing those things. I feel it's like the people pleasing part. I feel that I will be judged if I don't make everything appear great. It's hard for me because my mother is still like that. And when I visit her, we live in the same city. I feel an internal conflict and it, it's anxiety provoking for me. How do I deal with that of being myself and kind of not doing Dr. Margaret This voicemail made me feel a very poignant sorrow for this mother of three who is struggling to get out of her fears about not seeming or being good enough. It's interesting that she can see what the problem is. Her therapist called it perfectionism. I'd clear that up and call it a kind of destructive perfectionism because again, it's based on fear of being found out that she's human after all. Maybe there's a closet in her home that's messy or a glass that's smudged or that in her thinking about getting a job that she won't live up to expectations and it doesn't sound as if she's even risking finding out what those expectations might be. She knows she learned this fear from her mom who sounds as if she taught it or demonstrated herself maybe unintentionally or maybe very intentionally. Certainly when I grew up, my mother had the table set for a party at least a week in advance. She checked and rechecked. She had what she was going to wear all laid out way before the party. I saw that and much like this listener believed that I needed to do the same. In fact, I became anorexic because thinness was another one of those expectations. Luckily for me, or I say luckily, I moved away from home and saw life differently. I met women whose lives seemed very different, whose goals and directions were far from rigid and perfectionistic. I attended a very liberal college and feminism was being born, and I saw a way out even though at the time I didn't realize what I was doing, but this kind of perfectionism is still very, very prevalent in our culture. But I know very personally this inner struggle that this listener is talking about. In fact, for all my rebellion, when I'd go home, I'd still try to seem perfect, even when my real life was in tatters, the strain of that led to panic disorder. So I certainly hope this listener isn't experiencing those. So what can she do? I hope she's listening because I'd love to send her a copy of my book. Perfectly Hidden Depression. So listener, if you are listening, you can email me at askdrmargaret@drmargaretrutherford.com and I'll send you a signed copy because it sounds as if you'd find yourself there. Okay, let's talk about what you could do first. Your mother seems to be highly unlikely to support you changing the message cut off before I could hear what exactly the rest of your struggle was when you visited your mom, but I guess is that you still get messages from her about things you should be doing or being that be done better, and those messages hold power. So two things need to happen simultaneously. Less contact with your mom for a while at least, and then beginning to take very small risks to tolerate and cope with your fears of being judged by others negatively. I realize that's a lot to do all at once. So start slowly. Start with one friend, have her over and purposefully serve something not perfect like crackers and cheese instead of homemade something. In fact, I have my perfection seeking clients purposefully do something in a mediocre fashion, , or what they would consider mediocre. Not an important thing, but something that they're making important and truly isn't that they kind of laugh about and go, I know nobody really caress. If I've vacuumed the sofa , that's what I do. So I promise you most people are thinking about themselves. They are not thinking about you. We're all very self-conscious. Look for the small thing that you could try and you could risk. That would be not up to your expectations, but really just fine. Slowly look around your life and do something that you feared in the past doing. But start with the easiest thing, not the hardest. Remember, there are no small changes. Every change, every risk, no matter how small or seemingly small is important. Now let's get back to mom. This listener's mom may wonder or question why those visits aren't occurring as often. Since this listener's been in therapy, I'd suggest working either with a great friend who knows about her struggle and is emotionally savvy or with that therapist or both, and write down and practice what you're going to say to your mom, what you're going to choose to reveal. You could try something like, “Mom, I'm trying to not be so afraid of what others think of me. It's really making me unhappy, but I'm not sure where you stand on this as so much of what you do seems perfect.” Something like that. Maybe even that's too revealing. You could decide what's right for you. You can write it down and send it to her. You can email it, you can text it, you can say it to her face, but maybe you need to sort of help her see that, that you need to be around her less. But I also think that it is, that's a hard conversation to have and your mother may or may not be capable of actually having it in a fair way, in a healthy way. So that part of it is something you and your therapist are gonna have to talk about. There's so much life ahead of you and there's so much freedom in being able to decide whether or not you're going to strive for perfect or near perfect. And that's fine. And if you do enjoy that process or whether this time you're going to do what's more normal and easy and enjoy that as well, it's more freeing because it's a choice and you're no longer wrecked by fear and shame. That is what my book is all about. So I hope you'll email me and you can follow and do, it's over 60 exercises of reflections and read other stories to realize you're so far from being alone. Outro; So we're gonna do something fun in September. I'm gonna give away two books. Now, not perfectly Hidden Depression, I'm actually gonna give away a little book that Christine Mathias and I put together called Marriage Is Not for Chickens. It's a great little book to give somebody for an anniversary or they're getting married and I'm sure in the fall we're going to have some fall weddings and some holiday weddings. So I'm going to pick two reviewers who review on Apple Podcast in September who review self-work. And then I'll pick two, not the first two, not the last two. I'll choose them randomly and thank you. I hope you have fun with this. And of course, I hope you love self-work as well. Also, I have a really, I'm so proud of our new website. It's really beautiful. It's drmargaretrutherford.com and you can subscribe there. You'll get my weekly newsletter, which actually gives you a rundown of everything I do. For example, my blog post this week was on Fobbing. Do you know what Fobbing is? ? Well, it's the newest way to really alienate someone that you may or may not be interested in, and it has to do with cell phone use or looking at your screen, et cetera. So you could go over to Dr. Margaret brother for.com and subscribe, and you'd be able to get that link to that Fobbing article. I write about all kinds of things that are either near and dear to me or something that I'm very interested in learning more about myself. You can also, in fact, recently, a whole bunch of people have joined the Facebook group at facebook.com/groups/ self-work. Thank you so much for being here. Tell your friends, we'd love to have more of you. Take very good care of yourself, your loved ones in your community. I'm, and this has been.  

When I received an email about this new book, I knew I wanted to talk with its author. The book? The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control. The author? Katherine Morgan Schafler, a psychotherapist and former on-site therapist at Google. She's worked with many high-achieving women who are told they need to find "balance" - as if they're doing something wrong! Katherine tells us instead that what's important is to learn about the five different types of constructive perfectionism so that it can work for you! As she says, "You can dare to want more without feeling greedy or ungrateful!" She's an eloquent writer and speaker and it was wonderful having her on SelfWork as she helps these women exchange superficial control for real power.  Hope you'll listen in and learn! Advertisers' Links: Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has a special offer for you now! Vital Links: The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control: A Path to Peace and Power My TEDx talk that today has earned 100,000 views! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript: Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford At Self-Work. We'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret, and Self-Work is a podcast dedicated to you, taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. I started this podcast now, almost seven years ago, to extend the walls of my practice to many of you who've already been in therapy and very interested in psychological and mental issues, emotional issues, to those of you who might have just been diagnosed with something and you're looking for answers. And also to a third group of you that might be a little skeptical about the whole mental health treatment thing. And even admitting to someone that you need help, that's a step in and of itself. So listening to a podcast, it's a real safe way to do that, right? Welcome to all of you. Y'all all know that I've written a book called Perfectly Hidden Depression, where we need to look at perfectionism as it serves as a camouflage for really a lot of inner struggle, despair, loneliness, and even sometimes suicidal thinking. So I was very interested to see a book that's come out talking more about the positive aspects of perfectionism, what I would term constructive perfectionism rather than destructive perfectionism. So there's a new book by Katherine Morgan Schafler called The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control. And she says, you know, you don't have to stop being a perfectionist to be healthy. She says, for women who are sick of being given the generic advice that they just need to find balance, her new approach has arrived, and she's categorized these constructive perfectionists in five ways: classic, intense, Parisian, messy or procrastinator. Which one could you be? As you identify your unique perfectionist profile, you'll learn how to manage each form of perfectionism to work for you, not against you. Beyond managing, you'll learn how to embrace and even enjoy your perfectionism. Yes, enjoy. This book is elegantly written. I had to comment at the very beginning of the interview. I think it's one of the best books, at least self-help books that I've ever read, including my own. So Catherine's book is a love letter to the ambitious, high achieving full of life clients who have filled the author's private practice and who changed her life. Ultimately, her book will show you how to make the single greatest trade you'll ever make in your life, which is to exchange superficial control for real power, is what she says. So I was very interested to talk with Katherine, and we talked a few weeks ago, and that's our episode for today, Katherine Morgan Schafler. So this episode is sponsored once again by Better Help, because when you are ready to ask for help, maybe that will be the venue that you turn to because it is so easy, affordable for many, and very, very conducive to whatever lifestyle you are living. So let's hear from Better Help. BetterHelp Ad: I recently heard a fascinating reframe for the idea of asking for help. Maybe you view asking for help as something someone does who's falling apart or who isn't strong. So consider this. What if asking for help means that you won't let anything get in your way of solving an issue, finding out an answer or discovering a better direction? Asking for help is much more about your determination to recognize what needs your attention, or what is getting in your way of having the life you want better help. The number one online therapy provider makes reaching out about as easy as it can get. Within 48 hours, you'll have a professional licensed therapist with whom you can text, email, or talk with to guide you, and you're not having to comb through therapist websites or drive to appointments. It's convenient, inexpensive, and readily available. Now, you can find a therapist that fits your needs with better help. And if you use the code or link Better help.com/selfwork, you get 10% off your first month of sessions. So just do it. You'll be glad you did. That. Link again is better help.com/selfwork to get 10% off your first month of services. And now I want to introduce you to Catherine Morgan Schaeffler, the author of The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control. Interview: Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret Catherine, I I, I was reading your book and, and I will tell you that I, I think you're one of the most eloquent writers that I've ever interviewed and I've interviewed a bunch. Speaker 2: Katherine Schafler Wow, thank you so much. Speaker 1: The way you use language, the way you approach ideas and the way you get them across is really, it makes the book not only very compelling, but it's it's just a pleasure to read. It's, it's a, it's the, it's very evocative and, and I just so enjoyed the way you think and the way you put things. So the process of the book was really good, I thought. 2: Thank you. That is so flattering. I will take that. Thank you so much. 1: Oh, good. So tell SelfWork listeners a little bit about you, who you are, how you get, you know, how you got to be an author, all that kind of thing. 2: Sure. So my name's Katherine Morgan Schafler. I live in New York City, and I'm a psychotherapist and, and I, I think I always secretly wanted to write, but it was never in the forefront of my mind because I really do love being a therapist and, and my private practice was the soul of my work and still is. But I just noticed so many patterns as, as I know you have, because I've read your book as well, which is also fantastic. It was hooked on that intro story, which is every therapist's worst nightmare of Natalie and everything. Anyway, I digress. So, you know, when it is your job to listen to the most intimate pieces of someone's life, unfiltered, uncut and totally honest, that there's something special and sacred about that. And you kind of have your pulse on the zeitgeist in the way that other professions don't necessarily allow. And for me, recognizing patterns across so many clinical settings, across so many de demographics, culturally, socioeconomically, and in all these kinds of ways, really compelled me to contain it somewhere. Mm-Hmm. , hence the book. Mm-Hmm. . So I wrote The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control, A Path to Peace and Power, because that's, I noticed, universal. 1: That's my cue to show it. . Yeah. , yes. 2: So I, I really noticed universal plates around perfectionism that we are not talking about in commercial wellness. And not only are we not talking about them, we are talking about perfectionism. Like we fully understand it, like we know what it is, and you know, it's agreed upon in the research world that we're in the infancy of understanding this construct and that we don't even have a, an a formal clinical definition for so much of this stuff. And that really... 1: I noticed you call it an innate natural human tendency mm-hmm.Yeah. I thought that was interesting. 2: Yeah. You know, I think that it is natural and innate, and natural does not mean immediately healthy. Mm-Hmm. mm-hmm. , you know, like anger is also natural. That doesn't mean that anger is always healthy, but it also doesn't mean that it's not that there aren't wonderful expressions of that impulse within us. And that if we can just harness our natural innate human impulses instead of trying to eradicate them and get rid of them, which doesn't work, it will never work. I'm glad it will never work, because perfectionism is so powerful. Anger is such a powerful tool. All these things that we think are bad. Mm-Hmm. , they're not bad. They're powerful. 1: Yes. And they can be used in that way. You know, I, of course, I was thinking about my own writing and, and research and work when I was reading your book, and I really loved the juxtaposition of, of what your focus was and what my focus was. Which your focus is much more to a look at the, the beauty of perfectionism and celebrate it in many ways. And, and yet also look for when it's becoming something that, you know, like you said, all the five different types have their pros and their cons. Right. There are things that are great about them, and then there's things that are a little more vulnerable about them. Whereas my work is more talking about trauma and perfectionism and how that can, how perfectionism can at times, certainly not all the time be a camouflage of some kind, something that someone learns how to do in order to cope with the trauma that they have. So they mm-hmm. Anyway, enough about that. But I, I, I so enjoyed looking at this other side of it. And how did you come up with the five different categories? I mean, is that something just observation, clinical observation? 2: Yes. Well, first, let me say, I really resonate with what you just said, because my first job in this profession was working in residential treatment with kids in LA who had been severely abused and neglected so much so that they were no longer even in foster care because their family of origin had in some way not been fit to parent. And then they were abused and neglected in foster care, and then they became what was called wards of the state. Yes. And I saw so much perfectionism, maladaptive perfectionism of just shape shifting, of being around an adult and immediately trying to assess, "Okay, who do they want me to be?" Speaker 2: Who does this grownup want me to be? How do I, how do I best be whatever they need me to be right in this moment to stay safe. 1: Yeah. It's like a supervisor told me once, if you go into someone's home where you meet a family, always pay attention to the child that is quiet in the corner. . 2: Yeah. I put that in my book too. I had, I had similar advice from my supervisor who said, really specifically, pay attention to the children who are behaving perfectly. And I think that's a common adage in training and therapy, because, you know, kids have natural frenetic energy so often, and they're a little bit all over the place, and, and that's a good thing. But when they are trying to manage so much, they you know, fade themselves out. But to return to your original question, I came up with the five types because I was really trying to understand a phenomenon that I was noticing, which was, you know, I, I worked onsite at Google. I had a private practice on Wall Street. I worked in a rehab in Brooklyn in all these different, you've been , all these different settings. And I was able to take a client from my rehab and a client from my private practice on Wall Street and on, and see that they were both going to respond similarly to a certain situation. And those kinds of things started happening all the time. And I'm like, what is the tie that binds this true? Love it. And I thought for a moment, like, is it attachment theory? Is it this, is it what is happening? And how come I can predict with reasonable reliability, how people are going to respond to certain, you know, stimulus? And that's where the five types came from. I said, oh, it's perfectionism that is manifesting here, and it manifests in a patterned way. 1: So the, just to let the listeners know, the five types are: classic, procrastinator, messy, intense, and Parisian. And having lived in Paris for a little while I thought was, that one was very interesting. Oh, I think the French would love that they were some type of perfectness. 2: Well, you know, I I came up with that title because, you know, the, the beauty aesthetic for French women is so, so understated and simple in the sense that like, simplicity is the greatest form of sophistication. Like, it's very much signaling a a subtext of I'm not trying too hard. And the Parisian perfectionist really is embarrassed about other people knowing how much they care about something. Oh, that's, you know, and so they wanna be a little bit effortlessly cool. I'm not trying too hard. I don't care if you like me or not. Speaker 2: Meanwhile, they care a lot. And as I talk about in the book, that's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing to prioritize connection and relationships and understand the power of those connections that you have. And that is what Parisian perfectionists do. Every perfectionist is chasing an ideal mm-hmm. . And we think of perfectionism in a one dimensional way, as in behavioral perfectionism. So I want everything to be organized and in its place when actually perfectionism is kaleidoscopic. And so perfectionism can show up interpersonally, I want to be perfectly liked by you, or perfectly understood, or I wanna be the perfect mother, the perfect whatever. And that doesn't look like I wanna act and say the perfect things. It's so much more nuanced. That's why I love this subject, because the person is holding in their mind a pie chart of what the perfect mother, let's say, okay. Speaker 2: Behaves like. Right. It's not that she never screams, it's that when she loses her cool, it's only to a certain amount. And then she's immediately able to make successful repair attempts and she's continually, you know, improving and getting better. And, you know, she's, and so when we think of perfect, we think of happy all the time, or never making a mistake, but perfectionism is actually very individualized. Mm-Hmm. , and it's based on the own person's sense of what is, you know, this shows up another example of emotional perfectionism showing up is like, what is the perfect way to feel when you bump into an X ? Right? So it's like, I wanna feel 5% nostalgic, 20% just indifferent, and I don't care. And like 50% confident, empowered, and, you know, I wanna forget about it 10 minutes later. And so, you know, that's where we get to the nuance of perfectionism is those, those little pie charts that we walk around with our minds. 1: I, I think that's great. And, and I'm not sure what I would do if my heads, I don't think it would be perfect, whatever it was. 2: We don't wanna find out. We don't need to find out. Right. that can remain a mystery for us all. 1: It seems more targeted or focused on women. You talk a lot about misogyny, and I totally agree with you. And, and yet how would men be? 2: You know, you're the first person to ask me that question, and I've done so many podcasts. Thank you for asking that, because this is something I wanna talk more about. Unfortunately, like everything can't fit in a book, but perfectionism in men, typically, and I, you know, this is like a heteronormative version of perfectionism in men, typically shows up in like, the perfect response for a man is to be strong, to not cry, to know what to do, and to be able to pretty immediately execute on those actions. Speaker 2: Right? So there's no allowance for inaction. There's no allowance for more feminine qualities of, you know, I need comfort, I need guidance, I need counsel, I need love, I need all the things that men need, but feel unable to either access or ask for, or even recognizing themselves that they need because we've so polarized what it means to be a man and a woman in this, in this ridiculous way that we all know intellectually. But when we are in that position of, of feeling in need, you know, it's hard to be able to operate with a broadened perspective on all that stuff. 1: I was talking to one of my own clients yesterday about asking for help, and I quoted your quote . Hmm. He said, asking for help is refusal to give up. And that's how I frame it. I loved that. So anyway, again, there are lots of little, no, not so little just very noteworthy and memorable.Is that a word? Memorable, things things, quotes in your book. 2: Well, I'm glad that we're including men 'cause people have asked me that question too. And, and what I've noticed and I, I certainly have men, many men come to mind that I've worked with that Right. Fit into this rubric. So, I mean, I'm sure you've noticed the difference between what happens when men cry in front of you in a session, for example. Right. I mean, it's always vulnerable when clients go there. They're meaning like a very emotionally like live wire place when men do it. There, there is like a palpable sense of shame in the room, you know, of like, oh, I am really out of control right now. I am really losing it. Mm-Hmm. . 1: Yeah. I, I I love to say to folks, I think tears are about intensity, not weakness. 2: Mm. I like that reframe. We believe. 1: So one of the things that I appreciated so much about your book is that you spend several chapters on what you can do about it, is what I say on SelfWork all time. What can you do about it? Yeah. And I wanna get there, but before I do, I think there were really in this kind of sense of celebrating, but also trying to understand what the underbelly of perfectionism is. You, you said there are two guiding questions mm-hmm. , how am I striving and why am I striving? Can you talk about that a little bit? 2: Sure. So, you know, mental health and being healthy is not like a coordinate that you just plant your flag in and say, I've arrived. I'm healthy now. And healthy versions of perfectionism and unhealthy versions, like everybody always wants to know, am I healthy, perfectionist or not? And I'm like, let me kill the suspense. You're both, I'm both, anyone who's a perfectionist is both Exactly. Mm-Hmm. . And so I encourage people to think of it on a spectrum, right? And so in instead of a categorical model of I am or am not, the questions of how and why help you really be a little more thoughtful about your level of awareness. So the how it am it skin, it's that, right? Exactly. Exactly. And so the how is like, how am I striving? Am I striving in a way that is hurting me, that is burning me out, that is exploiting people around me, that is, you know, costing me something that I value my integrity, you know, my health, my relationships with my family, whatever it is that's unhealthy perfectionism, maladaptive perfectionism. Conversely, am I striving in a way that makes me feel like more of myself, that helps me to feel alive, that increases my curiosity, that really energizes me and also, you know, tires me out because this is work, you know, but it tires me out in a way that feels satisfying, right? That's healthy adaptive perfectionism. And the why am I striving is like, why am I trying to pursue the thing that I am in pursuit of? Is it because I think achieving that thing is going to enable me to then feel a certain way that once I, once I get my doctorate, then I can feel smart or know that I'm smart. Or once I get married, then I can feel like a grownup or lovable or legit or, you know, is it gonna certify my belonging in some way? Are you trying to get a ticket of admission into some club mm-hmm. , or that's that's, that's unhealthy perfectionism? Or am I striving because it feels so good in the most, in the deepest way to find a pursuit worthy of a lifetime of striving, right. 1: And it's a process, it's a, yeah, you're enjoying the whole nine yards from A to z I mean, you may be tired when you get to Z but it's something that is, like you say, is feeding you at the same time that you are, that you are putting out that kind of energy and determination. 2: Yes, thank you. That's a great point. There's a level of reciprocation of energy, whereas when it's maladaptive and unhealthy, it feels like just hemorrhaging energy, just like, you know, such a cost. And so this most simple example is when people try to look their best, right? Healthy perfectionists might want to, some perfectionists don't really care about the way that they present, but if you're in a healthy place and you do care about the way that you present, you might decide to present, you know, as your best to look your best because you feel your best on the inside. And you wanna animate that and celebrate that and share that and let people know that. Whereas if you are in a maladaptive space, you do the exact same behavior, right. You're looking your best, but you're doing that because you already feel like you're at such a deficit and you already feel unworthy. So the thinking is, I better look my best because I'm already coming to this meeting, this marriage, this whatever it is from a place of lack. And so I need to compensate for that somehow. So I'm gonna, you know, try to compensate by looking my best. So it's very . Yeah. I mean, it's what you're talking about in your book of it's hidden only, you know? Mm-Hmm. only, you know, whether you are focused on looking your best because you know, you truly feel that inside and you wanna animate that mm-hmm. or because you feel a void inside and you wanna try to fill that. 1: I love that term "animate." I think that is very 'cause it does feel as if you are Disney your life in some ways. 'cause You want to, you're trying to, you know, Gordon Flett says, "The better I do, the better I must do."  2: And so it's just this constant cycle of, of of animating that, you know that way you want to seem Yeah, yeah, yeah. In destructive perfectionism. 1: Right. I love those two questions. Help me understand, because I, I got puzzled a little bit about, you talk about balance in a negative way mm-hmm. and I, I understood it. In many ways, it's, you, you know, you can't have it all. You, you just, you know, that's just not gonna happen. But you, you talk about balance is actually an energetic equilibrium. There's another one of those phrases that I loved, and because you've become, you've become being good at being busy. So can you sure. Yeah. 2: So that a little bit for us, yeah. Balance is a wonderful pursuit in its original definition, which is energetic equilibrium. Mm-Hmm. right. Balance in its, yeah. You know, original form is about how you feel on the inside. Right. Balance as we talk about it in commercial wellness has become a, about being good at being busy mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . And so we've really lost the inside of what balance means and we're operating with a shell casing. Yeah, that's an excellent point. Yeah. And so, you know, the people that are genuinely have found this sweet spot of their energetic equilibrium on the outside, they look like the opposite of balanced. You know, they're not able to juggle any task you throw at them. And, and they're not, you know, perfectly moving through their day with all of the, you know, it's not about that. And so it, that section was about the implicit sort of wild goose chase that we send women on, which is, you know what, you know what your problem is, you are not balanced enough. Yeah. Let me help you to be balanced. Do this, say this mantra in the morning and buy this like Instapot so that you can make quinoa, , and you know get this app that's gonna help you to learn French, because balanced people are really cultured and travel enough and all this stuff. And it's like, just becomes another another achievement. You must, but now I must achieve balance. Yeah. And you know, I talk about it in the book, like when we were all young girls, we were told that the story that a prince was gonna come and rescue us, right? And that if we just make the most out of being trapped or kidnapped or, you know, being an orphan or whatever travesty that we're in and do what is good and virtuous, then one day the prince will come and save us and we will live as this story goes happily ever after. And now as adult women, we are being sold that same exact story. And the prince has been replaced by this idea of balance that is so superficial, it's not real, and it never arrives. It's like, balance is always, oh, after the holidays I'll, I'll find balance. Oh, this is such a stressful week at work. I can't wait till Saturday. I'm gonna, you know, what I'm gonna have, get level set on Saturday. And then it's always in the future. And it never comes. And, and we don't notice that it never comes because as women, we are too busy blaming ourselves for it's delay. And it is not our fault. The reason that we never come, that it never comes is because this fake notion of balance is not real. It's just an idea. It's not real. Mm-Hmm. . 1: Yeah. It's a really intriguing thought. And I, I think it, it certainly I'm glad you said it and brought it up in the conversation in your book. 'Cause I, I think it's, it's something that maybe people, as you say, have swallowed a this com. 2: I used the term commercial a few minutes ago, this commercial version of balance. And, you know, you see people meditating on commercials and you know, making sure they take their, you know, all their medicine 'cause another medicine is going to fix that. Right? So medicine and yoga pants, the right outfit, , and a quick vodka martini perhaps. Oh, that too. Sure. 1: You said there are 10 changes in thinking that you can have and then 10 changes in your behaviors. So I would, I would love for you to just pick one of those maybe that you don't get to talk about very much. Mm-Hmm. , I just wrote a few of them down. Counterfactual thinking Maintenance and is triumph, difficulty versus challenge. And what I can't read my own handwriting, the getting connected Simple isn't easy, which I loved that one. Mm-Hmm. And then some of the behaviors are restoration, reframe, explain, and express. Do less than, do more. Those are just a few that I wrote down. But what do you not get to talk about that you'd like to talk about? 2: Oh, thank you for that. So I think strike when the iron is cold. Like one of my favorite strategies it's a phrase that comes from the Dr. Irvin Yalom who is, you know, a celebrated psychologist and writer. And the idea here is that the best time to address a conflict or something that is really challenging to you is not when the iron is hot. It's not in the moment that you're in the conflict, right? It's when the conflict and you have some distance between themselves. So the strategy that, you know, the way I applied it in the book is like, the best time to work on your maladaptive perfectionism is when it's not showing up. Yes. For you. It's when you're in a great space. Because when you're in a healthy space, that's when you feel most solutions oriented. That's when you feel confident enough to ask for help. That's when you feel, you know, that you have the most energy to maybe set or adjust a routine such that you are able to encounter, you know, your deepest self every day or your goals or whatever it is that you, you know, if you're anything like me can lose sight of really easily, you know, I have to remind myself of like my basic values every day just because otherwise we get so distracted and so striking when the iron is, is cold applied outside of managing perfectionism might look like, let's say you and your partner have a real hot button issue going on. Mm-Hmm. the time to talk about that is when you are feeling very connected to that person. Exactly. And when, when you and that person are laughing, you're having a good time, you feel safe together. And that's when you wanna say, listen, I, I've been thinking about something that I'd like to have a conversation about. It's important to me. Do you have time? Mm-Hmm. And energy to listen to that right now? Or are you up for that right now? Mm-Hmm. and the person will probably be able to receive that versus, you know, let's just say for argument's sake, the, the issue is one, you know, one person comes home late and they don't say that they're coming home late and the other person feels dismissed and disrespected and blah, blah, blah. Okay. So striking when the iron is hot would look like noticing it's seven o'clock. My partner said they would be home at, at 6 45, 0, 15 minutes. You're building resentment, you're, you're, you know, you're just having an argument in your head and then seven 12 rolls by and your partner comes home and you're just like, why didn't you tell me? We have talked about this. I wanna talk about this right now. You either respect me or you don't. And you just engage in this very unproductive back and forth, which creates immediate defensiveness. Nobody feels really safe and nobody feels open. There's, there's such a tiny, if not invisible or, or not even invisible, but just like doesn't exist opportunity for solution in those moments. You're just doing damage control at that point. Sure. Of course. 1: Strike when the iron is cold. That's a great, great way of putting it. And I've never heard it before. So that's that's, that's another one that will stick with me. I have sneaking suspicion. And then again, some of your behavioral suggestions are also really, really good. Which one do you not get to talk about ? Well so I mean, I think that if people understood that asking for help looks like not just asking for emotional help, that's actually a reframe of of perspective. 2: It's not one of the behavioral strategies, but I think it applies to behavioral strategies. Because if we're talking about the behavior of asking for help, being able to understand that, so often we don't ask for help because we think of my, of help in this myopic one dimensional way, which is asking for help means being emotionally vulnerable and having to tell someone something that feels private or scary to acknowledge. And emotional help is one version of help. I identify six in the book. There are many more. And so other versions of help include informational help. Mm-Hmm. , right? So if you, if you just started a business and you are really stressed out with the mechanics of filing your taxes under, you know, this a new P L L C as opposed to the way you've always filed your taxes in life, you are stressed and you need help and understanding, wait a minute, I don't need necessarily a therapy session about this. I need to talk to an accountant and ask them two specific questions. I need informational help. And so just being able to organize the kind of help you need and create buckets in your mind. There's tangible help, there's physical help, there's financial help, there's emotional help, there's informational help and there's community help. And again, that's just the intro class, right? , they're all different kinds of help. And so asking for help doesn't have to look like bearing your soul to somebody. You know, I, I'm thinking laughing to myself about this past weekend. I, I'm short, I'm like five three and I am too. Oh, . And I was at the grocery store and the thing I wanted Creme Fraise was way at the top. And I was standing there and trying to hold on and I thought, I'm just not gonna ask for help. And I knocked the hole, the shelf off, , it all kept rumbling down. Oh God, didn't I just ask for help? So 2: Yeah. I know there are so many moments where we don't ask for help for no good reason. And then there are other moments when we don't ask for help for reasons that we think are good, but other people, you know, they, I was just talking about this to a friend where it's like, you don't ask for help because you think you are burdening someone. Mm-Hmm. when actually asking for help is an invitation to connect and let people show up for you. And it also gives other people license to ask for help from you. Love to ask for help. Yeah. Be asked for help. It's like, oh, you see me as someone that can help you? That's very flattering to me. 1:  Right. A lot of people do. So well the, the book's title is again, the Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control, A Path to Peace and Power by Katherine Morgan Schafler. And I'm also curious, and I saw that one of your certifications was from the Association for Spirituality and Psychotherapy in New York, and, but your afterward is very interesting. Mm-Hmm. . 2: Yeah. I put that in in the last second 'cause I was scared to put it in because I was like, it it, it has God in it. Yeah. It has God, God language, . And I was really raised, not, not religiously and so to me, but I've always believed in God. Mm-Hmm. and it felt like a really intellectual book. And it also felt incomplete without that afterwards. So I just snuck it in there, . 1: I love it. I thought, wow, what, this is really revealing another part of her. Yeah. So it was and the way you feel about that kind of connection, how you feel about connection. Yeah. 2: Well, I'll tell you where that came from. I remember being in my apartment before I even had a book proposal and just having a ton of index cards. 'cause I'm old school and I like to write stuff on index cards and lay them out to organize my thoughts. And I was like, what is this book gonna be about? What is it not gonna be about? How am I going to structure it? And I just had that, you know, I call it in the afterward Waking Dream. I was sitting there and I just saw what I wrote in the afterward and it was just like a ten second thing. And I, and I was like, that is the spine of the book. And at, when I finished the book, something about it didn't feel complete and it was not including that little, you know, half a page afterward. And then I put it in and I felt such a peace in heart and mind, and I really love that part too. So thank you for, for sharing that. 1: Of course. Well, if for SelfWork listeners who are going to actually pick this book up, which I would highly recommend, I'm not gonna spoil it by reading it because I think it's just very, oh gosh, it, it evoked curiosity. It evoked gentleness. I don't know. It was just very, it was very interesting that you would, and I, I, I felt like you were letting us in a little bit to who you are and, and what makes you tick. So that's, that was really a beautiful thing to write. Hmm. Thank you. Anything else that you would like for us to hear about you or about your work? 2. Well the book is a conversation starter, and I could, you know, I think we all could talk about this in so many different directions and ways. And I continue the conversation on my site, which is Katherine Morgan Schafler.com, and you can find me on instagram@Katherinemorganschafler.com. And and I just wanna thank you for having me on. This has been such a thoughtful conversation and I also wanna Thank you. I have your book here. Oh. And I wanna, I wanna thank you for laying the groundwork. You know, you and so many other practitioners, you know, Dr. Brene Brown comes to mind, Flett and Hewitt, obviously, you know, all these people that really cemented how perfectionism can go wrong and how much we need to be mindful of that and understand that we need bumper lanes on this thing mm-hmm. or else we are going to crash. Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, the crash for perfectionism is very serious. And I talk about those serious risks in the book. And the reason that I was able to write a book about a sort of broader perspective was because the, you know, part about how maladaptive perfectionism can go wrong was so clearly laid out. And so I appreciate that and it gave me license to really explore. And I never get a chance to tell the people who wrote books. I mean, isn't that the best part of being an author is that you get to talk to other people who write other authors and about being a podcast host as well, so . Yeah, right. But man, being a podcast host looks so hard to me. It look, I mean, it looks easy on the surface, but just by being on all these podcasts, even just as a guest, I'm like, God, the level of technology, alone, . Well, that's when you, thank God for your team and your audio engineer . Mm-Hmm. . Thank you Catherine. So very, very much. My pleasure. Thank you. Of course. Thanks to Catherine for a wonderful interview. I'm so appreciative of her work and the fact that she also actually in the beginnings of the book does talk about how perfectionism can be destructive. So we're really more on the same page than I initially thought. Thanks for the reviews you're leaving for SelfWork. Wherever you listen, keep 'em coming. Thank you for your support and for being here today. And please take very good care of yourself, your family, and your community. Of course, our hearts are broken by what has happened in Hawaii. And so if you know someone there or if your life is affected by that tragic wildfire, please know that we are helping and we want to help. And I urge everybody listening, give whatever you can to the American Red Cross or the organization of your choice to help out these Hawaiians who have lost everything. I'm Dr. Margaret, and this has been SelfWork.    

There are many times that work with my own clients sparks a podcast episode – and this time, I needed to look at what had been discussed in the literature since I saw my last client with postpartum depression. Because I had another – and her depression was severe. The moms I've seen with PPD have all been different. Some highly anxious but unable to function due to that anxiety along with a bad depression. Some who had histories of depression and some who didn't. Some who had had previous children with no problem and some who'd prepared for PPD since they'd experienced it before. And some who were almost dissociative – meaning that they were going through the motions of motherhood but felt very little about it. They “loved” their baby but having one seemed unreal – as if it hadn't happened. So today we're going to get the facts out about postpartum depression and of course, what you can do about it. Our listener voicemail is from a woman whose mom was an alcoholic and got sober, but who also appears to have borderline traits or BPD. – and who is viewing her daughter's choice to set boundaries as cruel and punitive. You can hear the poignancy in this mom's voice as she wants so to protect her children – but is she really protecting them by setting the boundary and thus, from her perspective, “creating” her mom's reaction and other difficult family dynamics. The point is she's NOT the one creating the dysfunction – or it certainly doesn't sound as if she is.  What would you say? Advertisers Link:  Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has a special offer for you now! Vital Links: My TEDx talk that today has earned 82,000 views! For more celeb stories, you can click here. Symptoms of Post Partum Depression Causes of Post Partum Depression The Retrievals Serial podcast series Al-Anon information You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript/Intro This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Hello, welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. I'm a psychologist. I've been in private practice for 30 years now and have decided to extend the walls of that practice to those of you who might be very interested in hearing more about mental health topics, maybe you're in therapy, maybe you've just been diagnosed with something or you have some kind of problem that you just want some help seeing through different eyes... and of course to a third group of you - those of you who think mental health treatment and maybe even therapists are just a little wacky and a little strange . So we're here together and I'm so glad we are. There are many times that my work with my own clients sparks a podcast episode, and this is one of them. I have someone with pretty severe postpartum depression, and so I wanted to look more into it, especially the recent research. The moms I've seen with postpartum have all been different. Some have been highly anxious and unable to function due to that anxiety along with a bad depression. Some had histories of depression, some who didn't, some who'd had previous children with no problem, and then some who prepared for postpartum depression since they'd experienced it before. Some were almost dissociative, meaning that they were going through the motions of motherhood, but felt very little about it. They loved their baby, but having one seemed unreal. They sort of felt dissociated from the whole experience. Detached is what that means  - as if it hadn't happened. What the general public doesn't realize is just how many miscarriages actually occur or how many problems there can be with pregnancy. For example, in 2020, there were 21,000 stillbirths that occurred in the US and the majority of those occurred among non-Hispanic, native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islanders and non-Hispanic black women.And this rate is more than twice the rate for non-Hispanic white women. So today we're gonna get to the facts out there about postpartum and of course what you can do about it. Our listener voicemail is from a woman whose mom was an alcoholic and got sober, but who also appears to have borderline traits and who's viewing her daughter's choice to set boundaries as cruel and punitive. You can hear the poignancy in this mom's voice as she wants so to protect her children. But is she really protecting them by setting a boundary, and thus, from her perspective, creating her mom's reaction and other difficult family dynamics? The point is, she's not the one creating the dysfunction, or it certainly doesn't sound as if she is. What would you say? We'll delve into that more later. As always, we wanna thank our generous sponsors. And if you've noticed, there's a fairly new arrival in SelfWork's queue of podcast listens, and that's an announcement about the Jordan Harbinger Show. You can support me and SelfWork by listening into my intro on Jordan's podcast. It'll appear second in your feed, as well as hearing a short message from Jordan himself on how he shapes his podcast. I actually listen to him on my walks. It's very different from SelfWork, but I like his style. Give it a listen when you can because it will support SelfWork.. The Episode For now, let's get into a discussion about what is a very painful subject when you're not supposed to be depressed -  'cause you just had a baby, It seems that finally postpartum depression is getting attention and that attention is long overdue. Some celebrities have been talking about it through the years revealing what an extremely tough time they had for the months after their child's birth. Marin Morris, for example, the country singer says "You're trying to become a new mother and good parent and do everything right". She added of the drowning feeling, "You just feel like you suck at every level". The actress Reese Witherspoon gave testimony to this kind of depression sneaking up on you. She said she felt completely out of control after the birth of her first child. And now I quote, "We don't understand the kind of hormonal rollercoaster that you go on when you stop nursing, and no one explained that to me. I was 23 years old when I had my first baby, and nobody explained to me that when you wean a baby, your hormones go into the toilet.I felt more depressed than I'd ever felt in my whole life. It was scary." And there's another, Serena Williams had her baby in 2018, and she said, "Honestly, sometimes I still think I have to deal with it". Her daughter was born by emergency cesarean section, and the athlete also had a near death experience involving pulmonary embolism. So you can see why that is really trauma and that happens. So I quote her again, "I think people need to talk about it more because it's almost like the fourth trimester. It's part of the pregnancy. I remember one day I couldn't find Olympia's bottle and I got so upset I started crying because I wanted to be perfect for her." If you wanna hear more celeb stories, I've got a link for you in the show notes. So what are the most recent statistics and facts about postpartum depression? Here's what a New York Times article had to say. "In recent years, mental health struggles have become the leading cause of maternal mortality in the United States, primarily due to suicides and drug overdoses. It's estimated that one in eight new moms experience postpartum depression and some research has suggested that the prevalence climbed as high as one in three during the early days of the pandemic. Yet roughly half of the women who are struggling with their mental health after pregnancy don't receive treatment. Barriers to care include a lack of awareness about symptoms and treatments and inability to access resources and of course stigma." So now I move away from that article to say there's increasing awareness that maternal deaths don't just happen during pregnancy or within the first few weeks after birth. This is going to surprise you. It was a stunning revelation to me. The new figures come amid a troubling rise in deaths of pregnant women and new mothers in the United States, which has the highest maternal mortality rate in the industrialized world. The figures soared during the pandemic to 32.9 deaths for every 100,000 live births in 2021. Rates for black and Native American women are two to three times higher than those for white women. It seems that the rates for black and native American women may be more equivalent to white women when the deaths are about depression or suicide. So now we know that there's danger to mom and baby for quite a long time. I'm going to quote one more article, summing up the findings from the CDC and I quote, "A fuller extent of the problem came to light in September when the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention took a more expansive look at mother's deaths analyzing them for a full year after childbirth and including deaths resulting from mental health conditions based on data provided by 36 states on 1018 pregnancy related deaths from 2017 to 2019." The CDC concluded that about a third of them occurred during pregnancy or on the day of delivery, and roughly another third before the baby turns six weeks old. But a full 30% occurred from that point until the baby's first birthday, a period that had not been a focus of maternal mortality research. I mean, I think this is incredible. Of note, most pregnancy related suicidal deaths occurred in the postpartum period with 62% of pregnancy related suicides occurring between 43 and 365 days postpartum, followed by 24% during pregnancy, and 14% within 42 days postpartum. So we don't have to just worry about postpartum in the first few weeks. We actually have to be very tuned into its presence even a year after the baby is born. The data have led to calls for closer follow-up care and more support for new moms during what has been called the fourth trimester, as Serena Williams called it, with special attention given to the women most vulnerable. I love this quote from Allison Stuby, an OB GYN professor at the University of North Carolina School of Medicine. She says, "Our approach to birth has been that the baby is the candy and the mom's the wrapper. And once the baby is out of the wrapper, we cast it aside. We need to recognize that the wrapper is a person. Moms are getting really sick and dying." Just to let you know, the other deaths that were not mental health conditions, the most frequent is hemorrhage, cardiac conditions, infections, thrombotic embolism and cardiomyopathy in that order. And they accounted for over 75% of pregnancy related deaths. And actually the figures show that 84% of those deaths were preventable. Let me say that again. 84% of those deaths were preventable. But people aren't paying attention. Moms don't wanna complain. Families are in denial. They don't know about this information. That's why it's so vital, and we're featuring it here on SelfWork. So is it that women didn't complain or that somehow mothers signs of illness were overlooked, somehow seen as weakness or that pregnant or new moms weren't counting their blessings? In fact, I will remember that when I finally became pregnant through I V F, that's in vitro fertilization. I was in my OBs office complaining about how much my feet had swollen. Now, I liked my OB, but he said, "Now, Margaret, you're so lucky to be pregnant. You shouldn't complain" in this kind of patronizing voice, I looked straight at him and said, "I couldn't disagree with you more. You're right. I worked hard to get pregnant and I am lucky. But that hard work gives me all the room in the world to complain. This was hard from the very beginning." He apologized, which was one of the reasons why I liked him so much. But somehow, women are supposed to handle the very difficult and at time frightening aspects of childbirth while either parenting other children or working full-time for a salary or whatever, without complaining, without receiving support, or more importantly, without being listened to for what are very real problems. In my research for this episode, I also came across a story about just this attitude toward women that truly shocked me to the core, at least rationally as a woman. However, I sadly got it. After we hear from BetterHelp who can help you through depression of any kind, I'll tell you this story and talk more specifically about the symptoms of postpartum depression. I recently heard a fascinating reframe for the idea of asking for help. Maybe you view asking for help as something someone does, who's falling apart or who isn't strong. So consider this. What if asking for help means that you won't let anything get in your way of solving an issue, finding out an answer or discovering a better direction? Asking for help is much more about your determination to recognize what needs your attention or what is getting in your way of having the life you want better help. The number one online therapy provider makes reaching out about as easy as it can get. Within 48 hours, you'll have a professional licensed therapist with whom you can text, email, or talk with to guide you, and you're not having to comb through therapist websites or drive to appointments. It's convenient, inexpensive, and readily available. Now you can find a therapist that fits your needs with better help. And if you use the code or link Betterhelp.com/ selfwork, you get 10% off your first month of sessions. So just do it. You'll be glad you did. That. Link again is betterhelp.com/selfwork to get 10% off your first month of services. Okay, first, let's talk about the symptoms of what's called PPD or postpartum depression. It's very different than the baby blues. Baby blues are very, very common, similar to what things are going on in other life transitions, they are mood swings, anxieties, sadness, irritability, feeling overwhelmed, crying, trouble with thinking and concentration, trouble sleeping. But that tends to go away when the new mom or maybe the mom with two or three other children settles down. But if the baby is sick or colicky or is born with some kind of problem, who knows what will happen. And yet, even if the baby seems perfectly normal, postpartum depression can happen and you can place huge shame onto yourself because somehow you're not grateful or happy. It basically is the same as a major depressive episode. In fact, that diagnosis has to be there with huge hormonal changes occurring. I worked with a woman who developed major depression after an adoption, not because there was anything wrong, but 'cause she'd gone through years of infertility treatment and failed adoptions and had never grieved the loss of those dreams. Her grief was waiting for her, and her experience was that she had very strong depression after she got her child. And let's say the mother herself had serious medical trauma during the birth or the pregnancy, and now she's supposed to be able to snap back from that and parent or nurse. Maybe she nearly died herself, but there's no time to grieve... or so she can tell herself and others can feed her that line as well. So in that instance, talk about complication!. She may be dealing with post-traumatic stress alongside trying to care for a child and becoming depressed herself. Now, what are postpartum depression symptoms? It's very similar, if not the same with major depression, except there are unique things that have to do with hormonal changes and being a mom. You're depressed, you have severe mood swings, you cry too much. You have difficulty bonding with your baby. You withdraw from family and friends. You can't eat, you can't sleep. Or sometimes you sleep too much. You don't enjoy what you used to enjoy. You can be very angry and irritable. You fear that you're not a good mother. Feel hopeless, helpless, worthless. You can have severe anxiety and even panic attacks. You can have thoughts of harming yourself or your baby and recurring thoughts of death or suicide. So who's more at risk for postpartum? One, someone who's had depression in the past. Two, if you have a partner with an untreated mood disorder or substance abuse and three, lack of social support. Now what does that last one mean? Maybe you have little to no maternity leave. Maybe you're on your own with no friends or relatives to help you adjust. Untreated postpartum depression may last for many months or longer. Now, there is a thing called postpartum psychosis. Just like in any depression, a deeper depression can devolve into psychosis where you feel confused and lost. You hallucinate -meaning you see things that aren't there or hear things that aren't there. You have delusions. You can feel paranoid, and you may even hear voices telling you to harm your baby. You've got to tell people if that's what's happening. It requires immediate treatment. I'm gonna touch on the fact that fathers who are young, have a history of depression, experience relationship problems, or are struggling financially are also candidates for a certain kind of postpartum depression, sometimes called paternal postpartum depression. It can certainly have the same negative effect on the mother and father's relationship and their child's development. So we must become more aware of this. And if you have a daughter or a sister or a friend who's struggling, what's the best thing you can do? Before I answer this question, I wanna bring up perfectionism. Just think what happens when a woman who's perfectionistic and needs a lot of control has a baby. Everything that was in her control suddenly isn't. This can be a highly dangerous time for her. It can be a pressure cooker, and friends can really help out by affirming what is a difficult transition for anyone, but especially if you need a lot of control. So I told you about a story I was gonna tell you that I was shocked by. I discovered a podcast called The Retrievals that is a part of the Serial series. Now, I haven't listened to it all, but what I heard was shocking. Basically, an employee, a nurse from the Yale Infertility Clinic stole pain meds that the women undergoing egg retrieval procedures were supposed to get in their IVs, pain meds that would normally have made the procedure perhaps uncomfortable, but that would be it. And yet, several of the women having these egg retrievals, which is an operation basically were screaming that they could feel everything and that the pain was unbearable. And this happened to multiple, multiple people and went on for several weeks. But the women just bore the pain because they were told, "Well, we've given you all the pain medicine we can." The producer of this program stated that they did what women often do, which is to make up a story that would somehow lead them to blame themselves for their horrific experience. And that's what women tend to do. We tend to find fault with ourselves. But listen to this... Even after the facts were discovered, the crime was discovered that the nurse had basically replaced the pain meds with saline solution. So some women only got one to 10% of the pain medicine needed. Even after that had been discovered, all of the women got a statement from Yale that basically said, "We're sorry, but you know, there was no harm done." What?No harm? So the women felt relief that their realities were validated but also very disrespected. I'm anxious to hear the rest of the program. Maybe they did something about that. I'll have the links to the entire podcast for you in the show notes. So women's pain is often overlooked. We are seen as complaining or whining when it's really very real. And this has just got to stop. Postpartum depression is a very real and dangerous form of depression. So we must make sure we listen and pay attention. And rather than saying, "Well, I don't wanna tell my daughter who's about to have a baby that this might happen to her, you know, I don't want to worry her. I don't want her to be afraid." Myself. I'd rather someone know that this is what to watch for. In fact, that would be a wonderful gift to give someone who's just discovered she's about to have a child - Sso they can prepare and be alert. That's what you can do about it. And then support them getting the help that they need. You'll be excited to hear. I'm excited to say that later on this week, it will be a midweek episode. I'm gonna have Dr. Zenobia Harris on who heads up the Arkansas Birthing Project. My state of Arkansas leads the nation in maternal mortality rates. And Dr. Harris is gonna talk to us about that as well as what's going on in the field so that we can prevent those deaths. So tune in again this week to hear more about that Speak pipe message from dr margaret rutherford.com. Listener Email So now let's get to our weekly voicemail. Hi, I'm looking for some advice on how to manage my borderline mom as a grandmother to my six and four year old children. I've been putting in boundaries with her since I became a mom about six years ago. So it's very new in our relationship and she hasn't taken it well. She's playing the victim and that since she's stopped drinking, which she abused alcohol for nearly 20 years of my life, she thinks all the issues are resolved and that I'm being selfish for not forgiving her and that I'm being making things very hard and treating her badly by having boundaries. I'm getting to the point of thinking there's no way forward. But apart from struggling with being labeled as difficult and a problem and not compassionate and attacked by family members for treating her this way, I'm very mindful of protecting my children from this dynamic in my family. But it feels like going no contact and having to explain that to my children is me bringing that dynamic to my children rather than protecting them from it. So how do I navigate this while protecting my children from her, but also from the story of her? I really am lost and worried. So any advice would be so helpful. You know, there aren't many more problematic family issues than when a family member, whether it's a parent, a child, a sibling, a grandparent, whatever, denies the impact of their behavior on other people. I've often talked with one of my very dear friends who happens to be a psychologist. Think of it like this. Imagine a a fairly small party or gathering where one person doesn't talk, doesn't say anything, doesn't say why they're not talking, just walks around or sits and stares. You can imagine what kind of impact that's likely to have on the others. Some people will try very hard to engage them, some will get mad, some people will ignore them or at least try to, but they have a lot of power, don't they? It's like someone refusing to own their impact on others. So you can have a family member like this mom, who is refusing to own the impact of her past behavior, and in fact wants credit for having changed, which is great that she's quit drinking, but she's still not taking responsibility for the impact of her past behavior and perhaps other characterological issues. What they don't realize is that they've been hurtful and must earn back the trust of their family members because the family is not supposed to turn the page and pretend it didn't happen. No, that's not the way it works. And especially to call someone setting boundaries, abandonment when the trust hasn't been earned back, isn't fair or right. In fact, from what I know, from what this listener talks about, it seems that the mom just wants her daughter to ignore what has happened and trust her. And yet, I've heard many, many times in my office with people or mothers or fathers, whomever that have had abusive parents, they've said to me, "I can deal with them hurting me, but I'm not gonna let them hurt my child or my children." So that can seem pretty clear, right? The boundary's drawn, the mom gets mad, family doesn't understand, but it's still about," I'm not gonna let you hurt my children." Yet this listener brings up another difficult point: Is not being involved with her mother going to confuse her children or even more greatly expose them to the pain in the family, especially if it sounds like other members of the family are moving on? Both her mom and some of her family are seeing this as cruel and they may make a big deal about it. So this is my somewhat painful answer. Yes, it is a difficult issue and in fact, there's probably no total win in this situation, or at least what I've heard from this listener. Being estranged from a parent or a grandparent is going to need an explanation, at least an age appropriate one. But you can prepare yourself for that conversation. I'd highly recommend that this listener read some Al-Anon literature or join an online or local group. Al-Anon is a group that was formed years ago.They help each other to see how their own behavior or choices could what's called enable the drinker. And remember, stopping drinking alone doesn't fix the problems created when someone was drinking. That's naive and even entitled. But the people who are involved in Al-Anon have a lot of wisdom to share. I've been told their motto is something like "detach with love." I've got the Al-Anon link in the show notes, and there are meetings all over the world in 133 countries. And of course you can join in online. Perhaps they will give you their own versions of what they said to parents or family and how they explained it to their children. But you must remember as well that children learning that there is a natural consequence to their behavior and others, that's a really important thing for them to learn. I hope this has been helpful. Thank you so much to those of you who are regular listeners, welcome to new listeners. I got a wonderful review from a listener in South Africa. She happens to be a therapist, so thank you for that. I read that. I appreciate it very much. People ask me all the time, how long have you been doing that podcast? And now in October it'll be seven years. It's just become a part of my life. And I appreciate all of you listening, reviewing, rating, commenting, and sending in your questions and voicemails. Thank you so much. Please take care of yourself, your family, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret and this has been SelfWork.  

I wanted to offer you the advice and very creative teachings today of Becky Blades – she founded and sold an award-winning communications firm, she's basically run from the board room to the home room, she's an artist herself, and she's an inspiring and highly creative author of two books; Her first book, Do Your Laundry or You'll Die Alone, Advice Your Mom Would Give if She Thought You Were Listening, which she wrote and illustrated, was named a Best Books of 2014 and one of the Top 100 Indie Releases by Kirkus Reviews. It received the prestigious Kirkus Starred Review and was an Amazon best seller for six consecutive years. Now she's written another wonderfully illustrated book (her own drawings and illustrations) entitled Start More Than You Can Finish. And I wanted it to be a real fresh-er-up-er for those of you wilting in the heat of the summer or fending off one more winter storm – dependent on your hemisphere. And the Next Big Idea Club  has selected it as one of  “the most essential nonfiction books of the year." She calls herself a bad cook, a hopeful gardener, a passionate tree hugger and a licensed private pilot – and I'm delighted not only to have her on SelfWork...  but to call her a friend. Advertisers Link:  Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has a special offer for you now! Vital Links: My TEDx talk that today has earned 72,000 views! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford At SelfWork. We'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you, taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Speaker 2: Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford, and I'm so excited about bringing you a friend of mine and someone that I truly, truly admire. Becky Blades. I wanted to offer you the advice and very creative teachings of Becky today. Not only has she founded and sold an award-winning communications firm, she's basically run from the boardroom to the homeroom. She's an artist herself, and she's an inspiring and highly creative author of two books. Now, the first one was, do Your Laundry or You'll Die Alone, subtitle being Advice Your Mom Would Give If She Thought You Were Listing. She not only wrote and illustrated that book, it was named a Best book of 2014 and one of the Top 100 Indie Releases by Kirkus Reviews. And it received the prestigious Kirkus starred Review and was an Amazon bestseller for six consecutive years. Speaker 2: That is a long time. Now, she's written another wonderfully illustrated book. Again, her own drawings and illustrations entitled Start More Than You Can Finish. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. I wanted it to be a real fresher upper for those of you who are wilting in this heat of the summer, or if you're in another hemisphere, fending off one more winter storm. Her point in this book is that we can get so afraid of failing, we don't start and starting is so important. In fact, she advocates being a startist. And this book also has high praise. It's been named a Must Read by the Next Big Idea Club, which by the way, the members of that club are Malcolm Gladwell, Adam Grant, Susan Kane, and Daniel Pink, not bad company. And they call it one of the most essential non-fiction books of the year. It is truly inspiring. Speaker 2: She calls herself a bad cook, a hopeful gardener, a passionate tree hugger, and a licensed private pilot. And I'm delighted not only to have her on SelfWork, but I'm lucky enough, like I said, to call her a friend. Before we hear Becky's interview, let's hear from BetterHelp. So many people start or go back to therapy when their kids are starting school. And that's not too long from now. So everyone's starting something new. I'd recommend calling very early for a therapist in your locale, but with better help. You don't have to worry about that. They're ready to see you when you are ready to be seen. Speaker 2: I recently heard a fascinating reframe for the idea of asking for help. Maybe you view asking for help as something someone does who's falling apart or who isn't strong. So consider this. What if asking for help means that you won't let anything get in your way of solving an issue, finding out an answer or discovering a better direction? Asking for help is much more about your determination to recognize what needs your attention or what is getting in your way of having the life you want better help. The number one online therapy provider makes reaching out about as easy as it can get. Within 48 hours, you'll have a professional licensed therapist with whom you can text, email, or talk with to guide you. And you're not having to comb through therapist websites or drive to appointments. It's convenient, inexpensive, and readily available. Now you can find a therapist that fits your needs with better help. And if you use the code or link Betterhelp.com/self work, you get 10% off your first month of sessions. So just do it. You'll be glad you did. That. Link again is better help.com/selfwork to get 10% off your first month of surfaces. Speaker 2: And now I'm delighted, absolutely delighted to introduce you if you don't already know her. To Becky Blades. I was trying to remember when you and I met, was it at a midlife bloggers Speaker 3: Associated? It was at, it was at BlogHer that in San Jose. Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, that's right. Speaker 3: And it was my first one. Do did you go to a lot of those? No, Speaker 2: I think I went to two. I went to the one there. I went to one in Chicago, I think, and then I went to that one I didn't go to anymore. Speaker 3: And who invited me were Mary Speaker 2: Mary Dell Harrington, and Mary Speaker 3: Darrell Harrington and Lisa Heffernan. And I had just put out that first book. And I, you know, gosh, I am, I'm, you know, everybody I met there was so nice. And I just have still loved maintaining those relationships. Speaker 2: Listen, I was so glad that I took the time to read all of your book because I just laughed and I smiled and I teared up a couple of times and you had me from the very beginning. Your artwork is just incredible. A line is a dot that wasn't, this is what you say, a line is a dot that wasn't afraid to get started. I mean, that's like, Speaker 3: I loved that. Yeah. And a dot can be a splatter. I mean, dots don't need to be neat, perfect little dots. They can be little cuddles. Speaker 2: I didn't remember that until it, then I refreshed my memory and I wrote it that you are also, you're an author, but you're an an artist and you're, you're, you really love combining those things. And can you, why don't you tell SelfWork listeners a little bit about you? Speaker 3: Okay. Yeah. I had a career in public relations, which came out of a degree in journalism. And so I've always liked writing. I didn't like being poor. So journalism wasn't, you know, the job that I wanted out out of school. I grew up poor. So I, I chose to find a way to make money in an, the agency business, the journalism public relations agency business. There were a lot of opportunities for creativity. So I started my own firm in when I was 30. Wow. And ran that for 13 years. And then when I, kind of parenting was at a, at a pitch that I wanted to be home and in, in my creative space at home more too, sold the business and started building what what we now call a portfolio lifestyle. So I had the business oh, I like Speaker 2: That name. I've never heard this Speaker 3: . Yeah. And, and, and then I had the, I had an art studio and I remember  - to kind of jump over to this book  - when I one time my soon after I sold the business, my daughters were talking, they came home from school and they wanted it an identity for me. 'Cause you know, kids talk what your mother do, you know, what does your mom do? So my youngest said, "Mom, what are you, are you an artist? Are you a business person?" And I said, "Honey, why do those labels matter?" And her sister from the other room said, "She's a startist" . 'cause I was starting some other businesses and you know, they got confused by how I dress different days. So, so during that time, I, I went through my first and second midlife crisis. First that empty nest crisis that, you know, and have been such a great expert on my first book was do Your Laundry or You'll Die Alone. Speaker 3: And that was the subject line of the email I sent my daughter of all these journal entries with advice that I was kind of afraid to give her in person. So after she left for college, I sent it all to her. And, and then, you know, after that, I'm, I, I don't mind saying I'm 64 now. And those, these past 10 years of being kind of all, you know, almost the entire time empty, nested has given me the chance to really see how what I love and what I, who I love spending time with. And I've realized it's, it's people like you who when they think they wanna do a podcast, they'll just haul off and start it, or people have ideas and act on them. So Speaker 2: No, and the, the name of this book is Start More Than You Can Finish. And, and I so agreed with it. I, one of the things that I say to patients all the time is, it doesn't matter where you go, it's that you go Exactly. Just go, just make a choice. Just go. And I, I was just humming along with your book Thinking , I agree. . Speaker 3: And it's been fun to think about the mental health aspects, of course, you know, to, to make the case for something that seems as contrarian as this notion of start more than you can finish, you know, kind of in defiance of what our parents may have said. But the mental health aspects of creativity, we're learning more and more as you know about how creativity makes us flourish and thrive and, and the and then we have other things we can talk about, anxiety, depression as I studied the neuroscience of it, I, I decided, you know, I discovered hidden benefits that I didn't know I had been partaking in. Speaker 2: Wow. What are those? Speaker 3: Well, starting with self-discovery, self-esteem, getting out of anxiety and depression. I'll, I'll tell you a story that I haven't, it didn't make it in the book and I haven't told many people because it seems like kind of a downer, and we wanted the book to be upbeat. But part of my catalyst for writing the book was I was taking art lessons to domestic violence shelters. I did this for a few years. I, I didn't call it art therapy. Now they did because mm-hmm. All art is therapy, but I'm not a, I'm not a licensed therapist. Mm-Hmm. or an art therapist. But what I discovered in my time with those amazing women is that the thing that, that spectrum of creativity, I used to think it was started with, oh, oh, I'm not creative, and ended with, oh, I can start anything on a dime. Speaker 3: Well, the spectrum really starts way over in a place where we feel totally powerless. Totally. devoid of even knowing what we like. Right. What gives us joy, what our idea of beauty is, and our inability to make a decision. So this book is about starting, it's taking that first step, like you said, it's not where you go, it's that you go. And the example is, in the very first class, these women, all of them could not even make that first initial decision. I, I would kind of lay out a little project, very simple. I had all these enticing art supplies, but they literally needed my permission to choose a color. Like, what should I start with purple? Yes. Purple would be a great place to start. They had lost, I mean, they had literally had mm-hmm. the creativity beaten out of them because creativity is, it's trusting our own ideas and owning them, and then also having the, the courage to experiment and say, okay, you know, what? If purple doesn't work well, when we're terrified, when we're traumatized, when we're stuck, I don't think we have the courage to know that the stakes aren't that high. You know, if I choose color, if I choose purple and I don't like it, I can paint over it. Sure, of course. Or as I said, I'll give you another piece of paper . Speaker 2: That's a great point. It's that shutting down of, of risk of any, even, even how what, even no matter how tiny the risk, or seemingly tiny, it's not seemingly, it's not tiny to them. It's like, oh, right. I'm gonna make a choice and it's gonna be out here for other people to see. And yeah, it's right. But, you know, I, and you may Speaker 3: Not know, you know, I think when we're beaten down, we don't know what the risks are. There's this free floating sense of, I'm taking a chance, I'm doing something I haven't didn't do yesterday. So what might happen, because, you know, life doesn't treat us rationally. And for those women who had been, you know, abused, they, they had been abused for much less things than making a wrong color decision. Right. So the healing so to, you know, get back to your first big question was the, the ancillary benefits of acting on our ideas and following that creative process are things we don't even know we need, I think. And, and yet I could really see it dramatically with those, those women who, and this was another really fun thing, is that they came out of that so fast, so joyfully really, that just a few weeks, you know, just, you just give that affirmation that Yeah, purple would be great, and that looks great, and you know what, this other color might work too. And then they start with the self, with their own self-talk. And I mean, they just, those, those stays and those shelters aren't that long. So I only got to see 'em for a short period of time, but it was, it was fast and miraculous. Speaker 2: That's incredible. You know, I got my start in this business by volunteering at a domestic shelter. Oh. Speaker 3: So you get it. Speaker 2: Love so much so, so, so much. Anyway. Mm-hmm. , you know, I, I'm gonna quote you again. It's not that finishing isn't vital and great, but not finishing is not failure. And I, I love that because you know, how many times have I heard the phrase, well, that didn't work out like, that says something bad about me. I mean, you asked in the book to, to make a list of, you know, the things we've started and didn't finish. And to make, I mean, my first two marriages came to mind immediately, Speaker 3: , Speaker 2: I finished them, but Speaker 2: Not in, not in the way that I thought I was going to. And, and I mean, I carried those around with such shame for so long mm-hmm. that that wasn't okay. And and it's not ideal, perhaps, but it, you know, I learned something along the way. And then, but I, I love the fact that in the book, you also take time to say, all right, stop reading or, you know, whatever. And, and let's apply this. Let's, what can you do? Mm-Hmm. , what can you do with, with your, and you have four stages, you imagine, think, decide, and act. Which, you know, I, I think when people, a lot of people hear the word well, just imagine, just imagine mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , that feels like real shaky ground to just imagine. Mm. Speaker 3: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. mm-hmm. . And if we imagine and some people are really good at that part mm-hmm. , but some people, that is the toughest part because they imagine very small. They only imagine with the reality that they can touch and hold Right. Then. some people are great imagining and they imagine backwards, you know, they only pull from what they've already been able to do. So what, what I do with those four steps was research and find out how to do them better to, to start better and start more. So imagining it really comes down to imagining more and bigger the, the more we noodle and think about how things might be a future reality, which we're all gonna have, you know, we're gonna have a future anyway. Yeah. Speaker 2: Speaker 3: . So why not imagine it in all the, and it's all, its glorious colors and possibilities. Speaker 2: You know, I'm, I'm thinking about your work on Dreams with Start. I love that book. That, that's a great word. You, you, you should thank your daughter , because it says to write down your dreams, but then you very quickly said, but I don't have enough something. I don't have enough. Mm-Hmm. time. I don't have enough money, I don't have enough talent. I don't how whatever it is that you convince yourself to, to stop dreaming. Speaker 3: Exactly. It's, it's the, the answer to the question. The answer to the question. Why haven't you started that thing? And I asked actual people, art students of mine create very creative people after they told me something they wanted to do, I asked them why they hadn't started. And the answer was always, I don't have enough blank. They, they would word the answer many different ways. Sure. It could be confidence, like, I don't think I can do it. You don't have enough confidence. Right. enough permission, enough validation, you know, space and permission could be just from your family to think that you could take the time away for yourself. Mm-Hmm. to do that. I call that enough permission. You know, and, and obviously money and time are the big ones. Sure. Speaker 3: But we do have enough to start those things. That was the big learning. I think the big aha in the research was if you've started anything, like you probably didn't know that you'd be doing a podcast for this long pss I can, I've decided I can never do a podcast. I . So respect the ability to all the skills that come into this. But when you started your first one a start only thinks, thinks mostly about how I will start it, how I will do the first step. Yeah. And that is the healthy way. If you think your finish, if your finish was to get it produced and get it picked up by a big syndicate, you would not think you had enough of whatever to do that. And Speaker 2: I was determined to do at least eight podcasts because I was told in my class that that was the average number of podcasts that people do before they finish before they start Speaker 3: Really? Eight. Eight. Wow. Speaker 2: Eight. And so when I got to nine, I thought, oh, why ? Speaker 3: See, there you go. And what if you hadn't known those numbers? That's fascinating. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. So I I just, the support you give in the book and the humor and the asking people to look at themselves, I you know, you, you sort of break down these four parts, the imagine, think, decide, and act, and you you said, thinking brings ideas to life, not overthinking. What do you mean by that? Speaker 3: Not overthinking? Well, you may be familiar with, you know, all the research that mm-hmm. says that when we, that we are programmed, how would you state it? That we are, we are engineered for security as, as species, we're engineered for survival. So there's an, a natural avoidance to risk, which is healthy. Mm-Hmm. . So if we let ourselves to think, think too long, so we go to that imagining place and we're very successful and imagine something wonderful, then the next step is we think about it. We think about how that future state looks into reality. How would we do it? Where would we start? How long will it take? Who do I need to, you know, kinda warn about this? Sure. In that it is that process where we talk ourselves out of it, and we really do a number on ourselves be, and the more perfectionist a person is, the better or worse they, they do that part. So I, you know, I say imagine more, think less. Because the truth is that even if you plan, if you're thinking involves this elaborate detailed plan, the minute you start something, that plan changes. I, Speaker 2: I wrote that reality, Speaker 3: Circled it. Reality is a big old truth pill. And we cannot, we cannot predict it. Speaker 2: Mm-Hmm. No, we cannot. So like I have that in red, circled in red plans change as soon as you start. And you also talked, there was a section that I, I maybe 'cause of my theater experience, but you talked about how they're tenets of improv improvisation that are really important for start. Mm-Hmm. and I, I've done a little bit of improvisation, and it is, it's not easy . 'cause One of these things that you brought up, you, you know, you have to just say yes and yes. And it's a rule of agreement. And then you Oh, don't tell. There are no mistakes. And you stay in the moment, like you said it, it's like somebody can just start, an audience member will say, okay, we're gonna talk about diaries and cowboys. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 2: Somebody has to start something about a diary and a cowboy. And it may not make any sense. It is like, you have no idea where they're going, but you, you, you say something and you bring along. And then, oh, and then there was a, there was another cowboy, but he had a black horse, but he wanted a white. I mean, it's just, it's, it's, yeah. Then the story evolves. And so it's, I I loved that. Maybe, I don't know, is it an analogy, a metaphor that this Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 2: Creation is like improv. Speaker 3: And you know, the best quote I heard in my interviews with those people is it's about what we do, but mostly it's about what we do with what we did. So that first step, again, the stakes are reduced. You just gotta do something. It's throwing the mud on the wall. It's on an improv stage. There are like five actors, somebody has to say the first thing mm-hmm. , that takes courage. But really the hardest job is the person that says the second thing. Sure. . Or maybe it's easiest because then you have something to respond to. So we need to give ourselves something to respond to, to really flesh out our ideas. And I mean, I also learned that all kind of comedy really works like that because, you know, finding out what makes other people laugh is an exploration. You think, oh, this might make me laugh, but you don't know. 'cause You're hearing it on your, in your own head. So Exactly. My husband's taken to doing open mic nights. And Speaker 2: That's brave. That, Speaker 3: That is brave. It's also brave to be in the audience of those because it's, it's usually young men who who have, have lost their mothers laughing at them. So they're, you know, they don't know what's funny, but they're willing to, at, at late night climb on a stage and tell jokes and for taste. But what happens is that's how, that's how comedy's worked out. And even the, even the best joke writers, you know, go on stage over and over again before they will go lifetime Yeah. And tweak this and try that and shorten this. And, and that's, you know, that is the creative process. It's iterative, it's exploratory, it's curiosity. And I mean, I think mental health wise, I too believe when you, when you, when I am mentally healthy, I am my most curious Exactly. When we're shut down, we're, we're not curious. Speaker 2: But it's also an external energy. It's, it's going energy from internal traveling externally. When you're curious because you are either, whether it's how you make a good glass of iced tea. I'm sitting here looking at my i d or whether it's gosh, I, you know, I'm interested in what those green books are behind her. You know, it's, it's, you are, you're engaging with something. Maybe it's an idea or a person or a thing that's not, but you are, you, your focus is outward. Speaker 3: Yeah. I never thought of that, that way. That's, that makes sense. Which is a Speaker 2: Antidote to depression for sure. Hmm. And in many ways, anxiety, because you have to be in the moment. You have to be, whereas anxiety puts you into the future. Hmm. So what, tell me what you learned about yourself in, in writing this book. Speaker 3: Oh gosh. I learned that the very beginning of the research was learning that all of my unfinished business, and I'm doing air quotes visually here was were treasures. And that when I, you know, we rarely let ourselves dig back into the things that didn't go forward. You know, even things I didn't consider failures or unfinished, I just forgot about them. Mm-Hmm. . I just saw the link to how they made me who I am. And the big finishes in my life, the big finishes always had some roots and some unfinished business from, I found my college art supplies. As when you're, when you write and make art, you have all these records back there. Now, you may not have, in other types of curiosity, in other types of creativity like gardening or cooking, you may forget those things you tried. And so I think what I learned is I need to memorialize and celebrate my starts more. Speaker 3: And I do now. The, the rationale for this book was to to help other people that don't act on their ideas and make those people more fun companions, in a way. . And I had, and one of the things I found is after I sold my business, people were saying to me like, what are you, what have you, what are you doing now? What have you finished lately? They didn't use those words, but I could hear that people thought I had a lot of plates spinning. I do have a lot of plates spinning. That's something I'm good at. I'm good at starting things and, you know, maybe I could be the world expert because I have all the failures, and now they're documented. I do probably have a d d there are maybe not the, I Speaker 2: Was just about to ask you about that. Mm-Hmm. Speaker 3: . Yeah. but I no longer, I do not let people shame me about things that I started that are in a pause button. Mm-Hmm. , you know, because when we, like, the, the big lovely lesson or gift I hope this book gives people is that there is every benefit and very low price to, to trying something and setting it aside for another day for trying it and finding out, Hey, I don't really like that. I have a couple of big things I could have totally not what Speaker 2: I thought it would be, or would've Speaker 3: , or I scratch that itch and I'm good. And oh, what a, just a, it's just a glorious way to live. And that's how I wanna live the rest of my life. And I wanna do it with people who feel the same way and are not, and, and, you know, that feed off of me and I feed off of them. So after my first book, you, you may have experienced this too. People will come to you who have the same kind of dreams. Maybe they wanna start a practice, start a podcast, start a book, and they'll say, you know, I have, "I saw your book. I, I, you know, I think I could write a book like that." And so I would say, "Oh gosh, you should1"  You know, advice is personal. Everybody could write an advice book and about one in 10, and, and this bears out in other research, about one in 10 people will actually act on an idea that's even fully formulated. Speaker 3: And, and I would try to help them. And, and you could just see that they ditch the others that were not gonna act on it. They had taken it as far as they wanted to go, and there was not a whole lot you could do for them. So that's what I wanna change. They had, they had, you know, is that mindset that says I can't start it unless I have made room in my life mm-hmm. to be an author. I can't start a book unless I've made room in my life to add a writing practice, find a publisher, whatever they think writing a book is. Yeah. And, you know, so Speaker 2: And it's funny, I, I had lunch with someone that was interested in the TEDx process and was asking me about it. And she's starting to write a book and, and, or she wants to. And she was asking me all about that. And this is a very I, I feel like I'm having the same conversation twice this morning or this afternoon, Uhhuh because she is kind of at that place of, well, I don't know how I'm gonna make room for it. I wanna do it. And I have had this idea for a long time, but, and I looked at her and I said, "you know, start this afternoon."  You know, make, did you Speaker 3: Good for you. I Speaker 2: Said, if you've got 10 minutes, just take 10 minutes. Speaker 3: Exactly. Speaker 2: Just start jotting down some ideas and you don't have to what's the word I'm looking for? You know, you, you don't have to corral the time or say, okay, I'm gonna have gonna do this in on it. It's like, if you just put some consistent energy into it, it, it's gonna grow. It's just a, it's just exactly watering the idea every now and then so that it, it has, it can sustain you with time away from it. But you also, when you get back to it, you go, oh, oh, I hadn't thought about that. And Speaker 3: Exactly. Speaker 2: It, it's, it's, it's kind of refreshing. It's, it's like having a, starting a conversation and realizing the more you have it, the more you really value it. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. And that's adding something. So Speaker 3: It's like such sort the Nik effect which I wrote about a little. Speaker 2: Yes. I had never heard of that. Speaker 3: I mean, it's just that, it's just what you said. Once you make it real, once you tell your brain, we're gonna do this, or I have a problem if, if we accept it and don't say like, those nine out of 10 people said, I'm probably not gonna do this. If you're one of the ones that said, "Okay, I'm writing a book" -  whatever you declare as starting maybe that's writing your first two sentences, our brain tells us, our brain gets the message that they're on the job. Yeah. And subconsciously we are homing devices to pieces of information, to problem solving help, to meeting people. You know, you meet somebody and you think, oh, like, did they just say something about a book? Are they an author? You know, we are, we're, we wonder, we think there's new information coming out, we're just zeroed into it. Sure. And that we, you know, that happens all the time in our lives. And that effect it's also responsible for the thing that happens after we're done with something. Like we're done studying for tests. We take the test, it's over, and all that information just dumps out more . Yes. Speaker 2: It just goes away. Speaker 3: Well consider the opposite of that true for something that we've started and we haven't finished. So if you, if you take that fall smallest first step, declare it started, the world gives us a bling bag full of gifts. And that's, that's really why I say that the more we start the better and the, even if we start things that are very short term and finish 'em, start a limerick, start a, a soup , things that we, but declare that muscle in ourselves that says, you know, just like it was your instinct to say, start this afternoon. Very few people would say that, but it's that instinct that gets our ideas out and flowing. Mm-Hmm. , Speaker 2: I, I just, I, I really felt very supported. And I, I think if, if you're interested in this and you, you wanna get Becky's book, it is, it is, it is an, it's not, it's not a hard read at all. What is, what is compelling about it to me is that it does go against so much of what many of us are taught that mm-hmm. You know, you don't wanna start something and not finish it because, you know, that means that you're wasting time or you're wasting energy. Mm-Hmm. shame yourself for that. And, and rather than saying, well, what did I learn when I started that I learned this. And so when I start the next thing, I may start it a little differently, or I may, I don't know. I mean, it just gives you information. One of the things that I, I have people say to me all the time when they're trying to make changes, they'll say, well, this isn't really a big deal, but I go, wait, wait, wait. Yes. It's, it's a big deal. . Speaker 3: Yeah. What you're just Speaker 2: About to say is a big deal. Yeah. Speaker 3: And, and you know, a clarification on the finish start more than you can finish. What, and you, because you brought up di divorces in that example of something that wasn't finished or could have been called failure mm-hmm. , because what's the finish? What, what I'd like to say, it doesn't make a very pithy title, but start more than you can finish just exactly as you plan to everything has its finish. But great Speaker 2: Point. What Speaker 3: We don't start because we don't think we can finish as planned. If somebody said, "You're gonna have eight years with a person who you love for six of them, and you learn all these things for each other from each other" you know, maybe you can make that decision to not start because you didn't like that finish. But that's not how things work. And relationships are very creative undertaking. So in many ways, a relationship is a very good example. Yeah. a courageous creative start. So anyway, it's not, it's not don't finish. Finishing is always the end game. We wouldn't, you know, you don't start something you don't want to finish, but it, it's just a, it's just trying to trick that. Because I think when our parents said, "Don't start more than you can finish, don't bite off more than you could chew," they did not make us finish more. They only made us start less. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 3: They just didn't wanna mess left out . Speaker 2: Right, right. Wow. I wonder how you think this affects the newer, the younger generations. This don't start because they, you know, one of the things that I read a lot about, and then I have a 28 year old, so I'm somewhat in touch with what's hopefully in touch with what's in his world, is that they have not, there's been so much comparison with what other people have started around the world where I knew maybe somebody in Little Rock, you know, in Arkansas, and I was in Pine Bluff and oh, well, you know, I, I didn't know what somebody was doing in Bangkok or, or Toronto or California. I knew my little group of friends and that was it. And, and yet, so maybe some of this don't start anxiety is also about, well, what am I spo, you know, how do I compare what I'm starting to, what somebody else is starting or mm-hmm. , whatever Speaker 3: The biggest learning I had about that and this generation, and remember this was, this book was pretty much done when Covid hit. And the data then on business starts, particularly by young people, was on a 25 year decline. Really. And the research showed that that really came from how we're raising our kids. We no longer say, "Yes, Joey, you can have a lemonade stand. I don't have time to help you, but go for it". No, now we are, we are over parenting. We are trying to get kids in the, in the right schools. So my kids didn't do a lemonade stand after they were four because they were on club soccer teams because, or the debate team, because maybe they could get a scholarship. It was we have very structured instead of free range childhoods. Right. So how do you, you know, it just, it's a subliminal message that there's not time for your ideas. 'cause You have to follow society's schedule. Mm-Hmm. Speaker 2: mm-hmm. . Speaker 3: That's my hunch. And I think it's tragic. So, but then now there have to, and, and then Covid necessitated this boom in business starts because a business start is also, you know, your son starting a freelance business because he has to in Covid. Now, you know, it, it remains to be seen whether those starts will be sustained or whether they were just out of necessity. But that is a good, that is a reason for this rally cry, is that our kids are gonna need to start whole careers for themselves. Mm-Hmm. , I mean, we know things aren't going back the way they were. So that statistic, energy and confidence needs to be nurtured. And they've, they've gotta reduce their risks of trying something, not liking it and then trying something else. It's Speaker 2: Pulling on your face. I mean, you know, it's just, oh, well this didn't work out quite as way, I thought. Yeah, Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And then again, start something else. , so mm-hmm. . Yeah. Well, I I love your book again. It's called Start More Than You Can Finish. I created Permission Slip to unleash your Best Ideas. The art is absolutely delightful in it. Oh, I'm so glad. I'm as to the enjoyment and pleasure of the book. You know, I told you that I couldn't, I I didn't want to interview you ne last week because I had not had a chance to actually read all of it. And I was so glad that I took the time. I'm too, I just had this real excitement about it. And I, and I hope self work listeners will check it out and and see what it holds for you. And Becky, I couldn't thank you more for being on self work. Thank you so very much. Speaker 3: It was so fun to reconnect. Thank you, Dr. Margaret. Speaker 2: You betcha. Speaker 2: I know you enjoyed that interview. Isn't Becky absolutely fantastic?. I wanna remind you that we now have episode transcripts at the end of every episode of Self Work. I don't know why I haven't done that in the past. It's really been far easier to do do it than I imagined. And so I apologize in many ways to those of you who may struggle with hearing like I do because I have tinnitus. And if I can find a way to add in other episode transcripts, I will. But at least for now, each episode of Self-Work has its own episode transcript. I also wanna remind those of you who maybe haven't subscribed to my website@drmargaretrutherford.com, you can get a free ebook called The Seven Commandments of Good Therapy. But most importantly, you get one weekly newsletter from me, just one, and it offers to you both my weekly blog posts, which some of you may be interested in reading. Speaker 2: I write one still every week, or sometimes we revamp an old one to bring it up to speed and make it applicable to today. And then of course, this podcast and any other news or information that I think you might be interested in, love to have you join, you can subscribe at the website. So now the subscription or the subscribe now is basically embedded when you scroll through the website. It's much easier than it was and I hope far less irritating. But I'd love to have you as a member of my newsletter, thank you to those of you who've listened to my TEDx talk as I record this. We are right at 63,000 views and wow, that's incredible. So keep 'em coming if you can. If you haven't watched I'd so appreciate you going to YouTube, Dr. Margaret Rutherford and TEDx, and you'll get the talk. Or you can go to my Instagram page and you'll see it in the links. That's instagram.com/dr. Margaret Rutherford. Thanks so much for being here. Again, my immense gratitude to you, and I hope this in every episode is helpful to you. Please take care of yourself, your family, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret, and this has been self work.    

Today we're going to focus on high-functioning depression. What is it? What's it not? Is it dangerous or is it not? And what does that mean anyway, ‘'high-functioning” depression"? It's still depression, isn't it? It's the newer term for what's “properly” called Persistent Depressive Disorder, which used to be called before that, Dysthymia. Maybe it's a little sexier to call it ‘high-functioning depression” or “smiling depression.” But here's my thought: if more people react to one label better than they do others, more power to that label. I don't particularly care what we call it – and if more people can say, “Oh yeah, that's me,” and recognize its validity or presence, then I'm all for it. Let's make sure we all understand that I can't think of any mental illness or disorder that's not on a spectrum. You have depression. How you cope with it is based on myriad of factors. And there are millions of people who are coping every day around the world. I hope you'll benefit from listening and sharing this episode about moderate depression, or high-functioning depression. Advertisers Links:  Click HERE for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 - with bonus product with your subscription! Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has a special offer for you now! Vital Links:  What Cleveland Clinic says about PDD or Persistent Depressive Disorder My TEDx talk that today has earned 60,000 views! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript:  (00:10): This is SelfWork and I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork,we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. (00:29): Welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. I'm a clinical psychologist, and I started SelfWork almost seven years ago in order to extend the walls of my practice to those of you who might already be interested in psychotherapy or you're in therapy, to some of you who may have just been diagnosed with something or you're having a problem you can't figure out and are looking for answers. But also to a third group of you who are very skeptical about mental health treatment, mental illness in general, or you just think psychologists and therapists are a little wacky . Well, anyway, so here we are today. I wanna give a trigger alert to this episode because we are gonna be mentioning suicide. So just to trigger alert, to keep you safe. Today, we're going to be focusing on high functioning depression. Now what is that and what is it not? (01:18): Is it dangerous or is it not? And what does that mean anyway? High functioning depression. It's still depression, isn't it? It's actually the newer term for what's properly called persistent depressive disorder, which used to be called before that dysthymia. Maybe it's a little sexier to call it high functioning depression, or I've also heard it called smiling depression. But here's my thought, if more people understand or respond to some label or another better than they do others, then more power to that label. I don't particularly care what we call it, but if more people say, yeah, yeah, that's me, and recognize its validity or presence, then I'm all for it. I want you to understand, however, that I can't think of any mental illness or disorder that's not on a spectrum. Everything from schizophrenia to bipolar disorder to phobias to anxieties. But the major reason I wanted to point out the distinctions between good old classic depression and high functioning depression is that it can be too easy to believe one is better than the other, or that somehow people who aren't high functioning have some kind of innate weakness. (02:23): than they're more high functioning counterparts. I don't believe that at all. At all. You have depression. How you cope with it is based on a myriad of factors, and there are millions of people who are coping every day around the world. We'll get more into that in the body of the episode. We don't have a voicemail for today, , as I got into writing this so much that I ran out of time, but we'll feature that voicemail next week. It's from a mom of two small children whose own mother she describes as borderline and is having huge problems in the past with alcohol. She's in a tough spot with her mom. She's trying to figure out how she can best, best keep her children safe. So I'll do my best to answer. But again, that's next week. Before we get started, let's hear from one of our wonderful sponsors whose support really allows me to offer y'all self work. Let's hear from AG1. (03:18): Our next partner is AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. I drink it literally every day. I gave AG1 a try because I wanted a single solution that supports my entire body and covers my nutritional bases every day. I wanted better gut health, a boost in energy immune system support. I take it in the morning before starting my day, and I make sure and leave it out for my husband because he tends to forget. I love knowing that I'm starting my day so incredibly well, and I wouldn't change a thing because it's really helped me the last two or three years I've taken it. And here's a fact, since 2010, they've improved their formula 52 times in the pursuit of making this nutrition supplement possible and the best it can be. So if you wanna take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1. Try AG1 and get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkag1.com/selfwork, and that's a new link. Drinkag1.com/selfwork. Check it out. (04:40): It is always a bit embarrassing when you find out that what you've been saying about something isn't quite accurate, especially when you're supposed to be an expert. And that for me is with depression, or at least I've written a book about it. As I was researching for my book Perfectly Hidden Depression, I read several articles on what was termed "smiling" or "high functioning" depression. I never saw real symptom lists. What I read or what I thought I understood was that people who identified with high functioning depression knew they were depressed. They could see themselves in some, or a lot of the diagnostic markers of depression, foggy thinking, indecisiveness, fatigue, sleep or appetite issues, not enjoying the things they used to enjoy and an overall sense of being down a lot or most of the time. But these symptoms weren't so severe that they weren't able to slap a smile on their face, take their meds, go to therapy - or both - get in a couple of good walks, get the kids to school and get to work. (05:37): So I made the simple assumption that high functioning depression wasn't as debilitating as someone with more severe symptoms or classic depression. So I was right, but I also didn't understand the entire picture. This week, I was interviewed for an article for Wonder Mind about high functioning depression, and the author asked what the symptoms were. I somewhat confusedly said, "wWell, it's not a diagnosis, so it doesn't have symptoms. It's more a way of people talking like they know they have depression, but they developed really good coping skills, or they know what their triggers are and avoid them," or some such language, and she seemed a little confused. So what did I do? The next morning? I looked more into the term high functioning depression. What I had not realized, even when I was writing the book, was that the term high functioning depression was the newer term for what used to be called the more moderate depressive state of dysthymia, and now it's termed persistent depressive Disorder or PDD for short. (06:39): The Cleveland Clinic says about PDD, it's mild or moderate depression. That doesn't go away. A person with PDD has a sad, dark or low mood or two or more symptoms of depression. The symptoms last most of the day on most days over a long period of time. So it's a change of nomenclature or what we call moderate depression. And as I said in the intro, I don't really care what we call it. If a term is more meaningful now in 2023 than dysthymia or PDD was, it's certainly far less jargonistic sounding. Let's go with it. . I emailed the author immediately and explained to her what I'd figured out felt a little silly, but we all have to sometimes say we make mistakes. Let's also make this point. All mental illness exists on a spectrum. I said this in the intro, as I suppose medical illnesses do. (07:33): You can have really severe bronchitis or you can have a much milder throat infection. So all that's very simple. But depression has been and will always be on a spectrum. So let's first go through the pros of high functioning depression. Not that having depression is in any way a "pro" or some kind of benefit. A darkness still exists for you. Your emotions are difficult. You have physical symptoms and trouble with your thinking, and those things have been that way for quite a while by diagnostic standards, in fact, at least two years. But compared with more severe depression, this kind of depression doesn't sabotage your life as much as a deeper depression can and often does. So here are some of the pros of high functioning depression when we compare it to deeper, more severe depression. Obviously, most of the time you can work and get things done. (08:23): That's the easiest pro to see. You may hate going to work or dislike your job, but perhaps you figured out how to maximize what you most like and minimize what you don't. Maybe you have a hobby that you look forward to doing after work that brings you much more fulfillment and stands as a balance for what you don't enjoy so much. Maybe you love your kids and being around them or doing for them is very meaningful for you. So you're coping. There's much research out there, for example, on resilience in times of war. By no means for anyone are things right, and certainly depression does exist. You may long for what used to be, but you're going through a collective experience and that connection is what can sustain you. So resilience may be part of holding down a depression to a more moderate depression, but again, it's multifaceted. (09:13): One of my other observations is that when a less severe depression is occurring, your connection with others mostly remains intact. Physical symptoms may not be as likely and meaningful connections are still possible, and that's quite a feat. Really, it is. You may not see it that way. You may not give yourself credit for keeping on, keeping on, but it's huge. You can admit some days are harder than others, but you can talk about it hopefully, or if you can't talk about it, perhaps you journal or you exercise to get some of your anger or sadness out. I realize how much I'm saying the words "may" or "can" here. There's not one picture of the moderately depressed person. I'm sure your culture, your gender or gender identification, your race, your age, all of these human characteristics are going to come into play when someone describes the moderately depressed person or the high functioning depressed person. (10:09): It's the term. In fact, Chesley Kryst used about herself, at least her mother said she did after her suicidal, tragic death, who was Chesley Kryst? She was Miss U S A in 2019 and 2022 years due to the pandemic. She was the oldest Miss U S A at the ripe age of 28. She was shorter, more muscular, stunning, and brilliant. But I quote her when I'm teaching my class on perfectly hidden Depression to clinicians as she says that she only finds emptiness in achievements that her culture told her would bring fulfillment, and she jumped out of a New York City high-rise apartment building in January of 22. Obviously to her death. I don't think that Chesley Kryst had high functioning depression. I think her depression had worsened in a major depression, which then she didn't realize, or perhaps she would've identified with perfectly hidden depression. We'll talk about that difference as well as other pitfalls of high functioning depression after this word from Better help. (11:18): I recently heard a fascinating reframe for the idea of asking for help. Maybe you view asking for help as something someone does who's falling apart or who isn't strong. So consider this. What if asking for help means that you won't let anything get in your way of solving an issue, finding out an answer or discovering a better direction? Asking for help is much more about your determination to recognize what needs your attention or what is getting in your way of having the life you want better help. The number one online therapy provider makes reaching out about as easy as it can get. Within 48 hours, you'll have a professional licensed therapist with whom you can text, email, or talk with to guide you, and you're not having to comb through therapist websites or drive to appointments. It's convenient, inexpensive, and readily available. Now, you can find a therapist that fits your needs with better help, and if you use the code or link Better help.com/selfwork, you get 10% off your first month of sessions. So just do it. You'll be glad you did. That link again is betterhelp.com/selfwork to get 10% off your first month of services. (12:32): Let's get back to talking about Chesley Kryst. I don't want to oversimplify what Ms. Kryst went through or get into some kind of label dispute about what we call it. She thought of it as high functioning depression. That's what she reportedly told her mother the day before she died. Perhaps even that's what she and her therapist talked about. But moderate depression or high functioning depression can morph into major depression, and if she indeed experienced perfectly hidden depression or her perfectionism and high achieving life was really camouflaging even deeper despair than she wanted to reveal, she may not have had a way to talk about the extent of her suicidal plans or impulses. What matters is that she very purposefully fell to her death and the world lost a woman. Her family lost a daughter or a sister, and she was no longer alive to figure out that she could get better. (13:25): In my TEDx talk, I warn against just this kind of silence or fearing what might happen if you reveal suicidal thoughts. I also know as a clinician for 30 years just how common suicidal thinking is. It's not weakness, it's not a sin. It's a human response to depression and abuse and whatever else has happened to you. I do wanna make the point here that no depression is easy. Not one kind of depression is better to have than another kind, but you can function better with what's called smiling, depression, high functioning depression, whatever. You just can live your life. You're still walking around having to cope with a sense of sadness and maybe even dread, but even high functioning depression has its pitfalls. So we're gonna talk about that and as always, what you can do about it. This is in no way a complete list, but it's what has come to me as I write this this afternoon, and I hope it's helpful. (14:22): First, loneliness can creep up on you. With high functioning depression, you can easily tire of keeping up appearances, but you can get trapped in doing so and begin to have thoughts of being caged in by the life you've created into the depression that never seems to get better or worse. It's just there. So let me say high functioning depression has a root cause, just like more severe depression. Let me repeat that. It has a root cause. So what could that be? The first cause could happen through learning. What I'm saying is that high functioning depression can become almost its own lifestyle. You absorb depressed thinking or behavior as a child. Basically, you learn it. Think about if your parents never praised you or rarely gave you the message of what they saw in you that was your power or talent or skill. You can grow up feeling less than maybe your parents also felt that they were less than, and so you learn that from them. (15:22): But it isn't reality or it doesn't have to be. The problem is you can absorb low self-esteem. You can be told you don't wanna try too hard or show that you really want to work hard for something because that's how you get hurt. That's when you look stupid. So you don't risk, you don't try. You don't even have a clue of what your potential is. You live your life very carefully or you avoid risk or you avoid the chance of others seeing whatever your real struggles are. Now, you might say, "Well, I was never abused as a child." That's good. In fact, that's great. But damage can also be done by growing up in a vacuum where you were taught or it was modeled for you, that you just get through life. You settle, and guess what? That's depressing. Life can seem just okay, not bad, not good, just okay, so maybe you do put that smile on your face every morning. (16:17): Maybe you clock in at work and remember it's your colleague's birthday and you wish them a good day. Maybe you love your daughter and she's excited about a soccer game she's going to play that day. You've tried to give her what you never had and good for you, but your own life seems pretty humdrum. What I'm not saying is that there's something inherently bad about normal. I think it's sort of funny... normal has become a negative term. Why? I'm not sure - the only time I hear it used positively these days is when you get a test back and the results are normal or when your life has been chaotic and you're glad to get back to normal. But I've seen on social media for example, that normal is simply not okay, and that can be a part of high, high-functioning depression. My life seems normal, but I'm telling myself that's not good enough. (17:05): Really, that's a setup for selfs sabotage. But humdrum is not normal. Now, there are days that are pretty humdrum . We all have them, but if your life stays that way, that's the point of high-functioning depression that you don't get out of it. It's only when you stigmatize normal, when you see it as not bright enough or shiny enough or not good enough, that normal becomes a message to yourself that you have failed somehow. So let's get back to the cause of high functioning depression. Maybe it's not learned. Maybe your high functioning depression is the product of something else, a relationship that went sour that you've never gotten over, some loss of a dream that you've never recovered from. Maybe you stopped going to school, dropped out. Maybe you've got a learning disability that's either never been diagnosed or you've not wanted to admit it. (17:55): Maybe you've grown up feeling that because of your race, you don't have a chance because you've been bullied and you've absorbed that message that you're less than, that you need to hide. You've got to look for what you believe about yourself or about life in general to determine what may be getting in your way of having a good life or what I like to say, a good enough life, which is not humdrum. It's just good enough, and that can help you overcome depression that you don't believe the messages you got from your neighborhood or your family or your culture. If not, your condition can devolve into feelings of self-loathing or self-doubt, the stuff of more severe depression. Now, I'm very aware as I'm talking that I'm a white financially secure woman. It may seem easy for me to say these things, but then I think of situations like the one I'm about to tell you the things I've learned from my own patients. (18:49): One day when I looked on my schedule, I saw something kind of interesting. One of the patients I was going to see that day was the mother of someone I'd actually seen years before. And that patient, the one I'd seen years before, had asked a special favor of me to see her mother. Let's call her mom Emma. That was not typically my practice to see someone's parents, but her mom had heard about me from her daughter and she knew I hadn't thrown her under the bus, but had recommended instead that her daughter work through the legitimate feeling she had, while also have whatever compassion she could for her mom. Emma had had a really, really rough life and hadn't been all that great of a mom. The daughter told me that she'd apologized a hundred times over, but she'd also told her daughter she wanted to share something with me she'd never shared before. (19:36): So I agreed to see her mom. Emma. Also on my roster that day was a man who was one of the head honchos of the corporation where Emma worked. She worked on the chicken line, cutting up chicken parts. She'd never even finished elementary school. The other man I was about to see was a big wig in the chicken company. I smiled a little when I saw that and wondered what my day might bring. Emma came in first. Sure enough, she got tears in her eyes when she talked about the damage she'd done to her daughter. Her feelings were very sincere. She thanked me for helping her daughter. But when I asked why she'd wanted to come in for herself, she said, "I've never told this to anyone, but I've never forgotten it and I know that I've been affected by it". And there was a pause. (20:25): "I was sexually abused by my brother for years and I've never told anyone", and she got tears in her eyes again. Of course, I asked, "How does it feel to tell me?" And she said, "Like a weight just dropped off my shoulders." She went on to describe other things in her life. For example, she was taking care of her ex-husband who now was almost completely unable to care for himself, and he had been horribly abusive to her. She asked for no sympathy. She simply wanted to tell someone about the abuse and felt tremendous relief as she said. I admired her candor and continued to work with her for a few more sessions. 'cause she needed to help setting some boundaries. She needed to remember that she had to care for herself. That wasn't through massages, but real self-care, some time to herself, some rest. So that same day, as I said before, I saw the big wig as we'll call him , we'll call him Pete. (21:23): Pete had had all the education and opportunities that life could offer, and those were many. He was smart, but as I like to say, he was his biggest fan and it wasn't attractive. He came in with his wife and seemed to have the agenda that I tell her there was no reason for her to be depressed, that she had everything a woman might want. His wife looked at me and said, "I have everything except Pete's love." Pete scoffed at that and looked at me as if I'd agree with him. Some basic narcissism, of course, but what was so evident to me that Pete didn't have a clue about what real connection was or could be. The differences between Emma and Pete were many. I could have said back then that maybe both of them in their own very unique way were experiencing chronic but moderate depression or high functioning depression. (22:12): But Emma had found a way to stay connected, to seek forgiveness, to care, to choose to be transparent and allow her pain to lessen. Whereas Pete had very little to no empathy for the chaos of his marriage, nor did he understand what true connection was. I knew at the time that underneath what looks like narcissism, what looks like bravado is sadness, insecurity, and depression. Now, whether we wanna call it high functioning depression or what, I don't know. Pete only came in twice because he also didn't know how to risk true connection with me. I actually worry more about the Petes of the world than I do the Emmas. Emma has developed coping skills. Pete, not so much, except in the area of achievement. It was Pete's life that was full of sadness. It was Pete that was caught. It was Pete whose life would stay chaotic until he could try to risk understanding what made him - him, what had happened to him. High functioning depression, despite its name is still depression. That's a point that I hope I've made clearly. But I hope that this episode has helped you realize that you can figure out where those feelings and thoughts came from, and you can begin to change them. Because life is worth living very fully. And if SelfWork has helped you do that or make changes in your life that are important to you, please let me know. (23:48): Thanks always for listening. You can let me know that by leaving a rating or review of wherever you listen to self work, it always means so much. Ratings are simply a quick, yes, I like this , or a star rating. I guess it's a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And of course, review is a little more detailed, but all of it means so much to me. I just spoke last night to a small women's caucus. I wanna remind you that I'm available to speak to your organization. I don't care if it's 20 people or 200 people. I can speak virtually or I can come to you given the appropriate circumstances. I'd love to do that so we can all share the wisdom that we all have. You can also join my Facebook group at facebook.com/groups/ selfwork. We're at about almost 3,600 people. Some people go and then some people come. It's a great group. We'd love to have you there. And as always, you can buy my book Perfectly Hidden Depression@amazon.com or wherever you buy your books, and it gives you 60 exercises that you can follow along and learn how to get in touch with your own emotions very safely and securely. Again, thank you. I'm always grateful you're here. Please take care of yourself, your family, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret, and this has been SelfWork.  

I wasn't feeling so hot yesterday so took a time-out day and watched "Shrinking", the Apple TV series that has a superb cast and follows the lives of three therapists and their friends and families. It's full of expletives, especially the f bomb. Which is fine by me but there's wasn't one person in the cast who didn't explore its complete usage… It's also very moving. And I was relieved to see that except for some entertaining but weirdly unethical behavior, the therapists are painted as caring and trying hard to help. But also having HUGE struggles in their own lives. I get it. There have been times when my struggles have been larger than others. And yet it's still my job to be there for my clients – the way they've come to expect me being there.  Because I'm a shrink. So, I thought today we could talk about what those expectations – at least the basic ones – the stuff that both behind the scenes and front and center can be the building blocks of trust and safety in therapy.  an episode on creating emotional safety in therapy. That'll be in your show notes. Today, we're focusing on basics. The listener email today is from a listener in Bermuda who's tried several therapists but not found one that has helped her – what she calls “manage' her depression as its recurrent. And do I know any international treatment options? ‘I'll do my best to answer her. Our Advertiser's Links Click HERE for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 - with bonus product with your subscription! Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has a special offer for you now! Vital Links An episode on creating emotional safety in therapy. You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you!   Episode Transcript 350 SelfWork: Being A Shrink and What You Can Expect from Yours I wasn't feeling so hot yesterday so too a time-out day and watched “Shrinking” the Apple TV series that has a superb cast and follow the lives of three therapists and their friends and families. It's full of expletives, especially the f bomb. Which is fine by me but there's wasn't one person in the cast who didn't explore its complete usage… It's also very moving. And I was relieved to see that except for some entertaining but weirdly unethical behavior, the therapists are painted as caring and trying hard to help. But also having HUGE struggles in their own lives. I get it. There have been times when my struggles have been larger than others. And yet it's still my job to be there for my clients – the way they've come to expect me being there.  Because I'm a shrink. So, I thought today we could talk about what those expectations – at least the basic ones – are. There are skads of different approaches and schools – that we'll leave for another episode. But I'm talking basic stuff here – the stuff that both behind the scenes and front and center – can be the building blocks of trust and safety in therapy. I'd already published an episode on creating emotional safety in therapy. That'll be in your show notes. Today, we're focusing on basics. The listener email today is from a listener in Bermuda who's tried several therapists but not found one that has helped her – what she calls “manage' her depression as its recurrent. And do I know any international treatment options? ‘I'll do my best to answer her – have done several episodes on emotional regulation or managing emotions so I'd start by having her search for managing depression or managing emotions on my website at drmargaretrutherford.com to help locate things I've already mentioned could be helpful. Before we go on, let's hear from BetterHelp – rated the “best” online therapy service… Yesterday I woke up in a bad mood. I'm usually quite cheerful in the morning, a trait others might love or might need me to tone down a bit, depending on their own morning ritual. But yesterday, several things cropped up. We'd eaten at a place that we hadn't been to in a long time for dinner the night before. And my stomach didn't particularly care for what it had been offered. And my gut is usually like iron, so I haven't built many skills for handling that discomfort. And I was tired. I'd been going pretty strong for several weeks with no break - and like every other time I do that, the same thing happens. Overwork and overbusy brings bad mood - a little feeling of self-pity or entitlement that I can act less nicely to my spouse - just because I'm in a bad mood. That choice only makes my mood worse however, because I know what I'm doing - giving myself permission to be a jerk - when the little part of me that's watching what's going on is saying, "What in the hell are you doing and why did you talk to him like that?' But I rode in sullen silence to our usual Saturday breakfast diner. (which might've been a relief for said spouse...). And when we got there, they'd put in new lighting that was flickering every few seconds, a glitch that needed fixing. As I was already feeling kinda yuck, then I felt like I might be thrown back into vertigo which I'd experienced for the first and hopefully last time a few months back. So, I was staring down at the table, trying to decide what I could eat, trying to be nice to the waitress, when my husband made me laugh, making fun of the plethora of physical complaints expressed by the two of us since rising. Thank God for laughter. It didn't help my stomach - but my bad mood lifted almost instantly. Not that that happens every time. Sometimes, like everyone else, I can hold onto worry or feeling sorry for myself - whatever's constituting my "mood..." until... I get to the office. And I become your therapist. My mood needs to change - and it's my job to know how to do that. To get out of my head as much as possible - and tune into you. Not that where I am isn't going to affect that. But I need to try as much as possible to take my little bruised ego and put it on the shelf (fancy word here.. compartmentalized) until I have the time and space to look at what might be causing it. And that time is AFTER I've seen you. Interestingly, what I've noticed is that when this happens, or when I'm actually sad about something in my life, I focus differently. Maybe better in some way, because I'm coming from a quieter place? That's at least what I've thought. So when I also finished watching the first season of "Shrinking" yesterday, I had to stop and consider - once again - how others may see their therapists, what they expect on both an intangible but also a very tangible, pragmatic level.  The series is filled to the brim with f... this and f... that and there's a lot of sex being had, drugs being taken, and sarcasm being passed out. But all in all, at least the therapists are portrayed as really caring and wanting to help, although ethical boundaries are entertainingly (but not realistically) loose. Not since 1991's "What About Bob" - which if you haven't seen it and you're in therapy, you definitely should see - has there been more dual or triple relationships between therapist and patient. But back to how you see your therapist... I was always curious about mine. I was relieved when one very helpful but more soft-spoken therapist told me she'd thrown a plate at her husband when she got mad one time  - after the hundredth time of me shaming myself in her office for the way I'd acted when angry. It's not that my choices didn't need to change. But her joining me in living with regret was helpful. Now, we're going to turn to talking about these basic intangibles and tangibles in the therapeutic process. I do want to announce this – I took a lot of this from my very first SelfWork episode! The one I created “in class” – I was so very nervous… So I used the ebook I'd created for subscribers to my website as my “structure.” It was funny – when I pulled out that book today to see if I could use any of the material, I realized that most of it is still very good. And hits the basics. What I need to add to that today is so much more about online therapy and changes in HIPAA due to that. Also, the rise of life coaches – a career that's been around quite a while but within the last five or more years, has exponentially grown. And even more techniques to choose from – which is wonderful but also confusing. So let's first talk about the intangibles.. there are seven of them. Have a strong therapeutic alliance: feel that the two of you are working together well. What does this mean? One my FB group members commented – when I told them I was writing this post and what might they want to add… said the “power differential” was difficult for her. Meaning that her life was the focus of the relationship as well as her vulnerability being exposed… and that was one of the most difficult things for her. To me, this may mean the therapeutic alliance isn't strong enough. She may want a more collaborative kind of therapy – one where there's a little more ease – even though again, the work is hers to do. But you want to feel as if your therapist understands you – and is working toward helping you in the way you understand and want. Know how you're moving toward positive change; be able to say how you're getting better in a tangible way. This may be harder with some approaches than others – and honestly, probably reflects my own bias toward a more collaborative approach. So, I'm admitting my bias. I think it fits our lives today – and with both of you knowing what you're aiming for, the changes that when they happen, you'll both be able to know you've done “the work” – that's vital to me. That doesn't need to mean the change itself isn't in the emotional or mental realm. But knowing you got there – and how you got there – is important. Have a therapist that is attentive in session. Believe it or not, I have heard stories of therapists going to sleep. Or forgetting major things that you've told them. This is a pragmatic thing but it has huge relational components. If you feel I am really listening to you, really seeing you, and helping you see yourself – then trust is built. I have a fairly new patient right now – a fairly young guy – who says he loves therapy because of this very thing. His family situation was tough in some ways – and being seen means the world to him. Believe your therapist knows what they're doing. And you know their basic treatment strategy. What do I mean by this? Well, let's say for the first four to six sessions, I tell you we're going to start connecting your past with your present because, after hearing you tell your story in the first session, I think there would be some helpful connections to make – due to how you're reacting to the present. Maybe things are making you so sad you can't stand it. Or way too mad. Maybe if you understand how you're getting triggered, then you can have more control over those emotions. And you agree to that. But in the third session, I say, “I think we need to start couples work.” That's never been mentioned – I just decide. You can see how that can be unsettling – now if I have a really good reason to change course, okay. Let's talk about it. But out of the blue? Not helpful. Expect reasonable business practices. Okay… the fact is that what can make someone a good therapist may not be what helps them be a good business person. But if not, that's not your responsibility. You need to understand the business aspect of your relationship and that needs to be solid and secure. We'll talk more about that. 6 and 7. I realize six and seven are very integrated – they're about the therapist gaining your trust with your information – not only written information, but you knowing and trusting that confidentiality is being highly respected. And that their business is operating in a way that their staff only has limited access to your information. And also vital – that personal physical and sexual boundaries are being respected as well. There is absolutely no reason why a therapist should engage in any kind of physical touching without your express consent or your request for it. Obviously if my patient suggested something sexual, then I'd need to establish a boundary there and that would become a therapeutic focus. So those are the intangibles. What are the pragmatics? We'll hear those right after this message from AG1. So, here's the quick and dirty list of what you can and should expect pragmatically from a therapist. You should sign a well-written statement concerning your consent to treatment and a confidentiality agreement. That agreement should include information on what the therapist charges and what occurs if you miss an appointment without calling within an appropriate amount of time. HIPAA documents should be made available to you. Or a form that states you have seen the document. Online therapy has its own HIPAA requiremends and you can ask questions about how confidentiality is being kept when and if online therapy is occurring. You should know about how insurance or payment is being handled. Many therapists do not file insurance at all. Some do. You should know whether or not your insurance is through "managed care" or not. That means whether or not your therapist is free to make all clinical judgements or whether your treatment might be modified by your insurance company. This information is available through your insurance company. There is huge variety about the way therapists deal with financial matters. Some will reduce their fee. Some will not. You can ask questions about these topics as you are contacting mental health professionals as a potential therapist or certainly in an initial session. Also, bills should come regularly and as stated initially and costs should not change unless you're notified well ahead of time. Confidentiality in the case of treatment of children, adolescents and in marital work should be outlined. The boundaries of that confidentiality should be understood by all. Your therapist should be very clear with you about whether or not they provide emergency or after hours coverage. You need to know that going into the relationship. You and your provider need to have a plan on what you should do in case of emergency. There are several different mental health degrees that allow people to practice as "therapists." The training is very different between them. Psychiatrists are medical doctors. They prescribe and sometimes offer therapy.  The rest are psychologists, social workers, licensed professional counselors, marriage and family therapists. Perhaps even other designations. When choosing to educate yourself about the training in the different professions so that you can choose well for your particular condition. Feel free to ask how much experience he or she has in working with patients with your particular issue. Ask what specific techniques they will use to help you get better! The profession of life coaching has greatly increased. But it should be made clear that a life coach is not a licensed mental health professional. It's my understanding that there are certifications you can obtain by going through courses offered by life coaching platforms. But please realize the two professions are very different. That doesn't mean better or less than. It means different. I've referred a few patients to qualified life coaches I know and it can be very helpful – as they help the patient deal more with pragmatic things. If you do not feel you are improving, look elsewhere! Ask a medical doctor for other referrals. Frequently, family physicians, pastors or gynecologists have a referral list of mental health professionals. Remember, the "fit" is extremely important! Listener email Hello and good afternoon ,Dr Rutherford, Hope you are well. I am a huge fan of your podcast and listen to it regularly on my walks! I have gained a lot from it,  but was also interested in one to one therapy! I am based in Bermuda, and understand from your website that you wouldn't be able to help with potential clients outside of Arkansas; I just wanted to get in touch to ask if there is anyone globally that you would recommend that can provide therapy remotely? I have tried various therapists all over the world and none have seemed to work for me. I have suffered from recurring depression since a young age, but instead of accepting that and living with it, I would love to finally learn how to manage it. I am very grateful for any guidance or recommendation you are able to share. Kind regards, My response: Hello and thank you for being a listener. I wish I could help with the one-on-one part of what you're seeking. Maybe a way I can help is to write a podcast episode about what “managing” depression actually means. I'd like to research that a bit myself because I can certainly think of clients of mine who do just that. But I'm sure you're not the only person who doesn't exactly know what that might look like. To me, it means asking yourself what's happening or what are you doing or experiencing when you don't feel depressed - and try to add those kinds of things more into your life. And then when you do feel more depressed, what do you do when you're in it? I hope that perhaps that might help. I'll write myself a note so I don't forget! Basically, managing depression – especially recurrent depression – is managing triggers. Knowing what may cause a “flare-up” of emotions that can easily cycle into depression – and either avoiding those triggers if you can – or at the least, being aware of what they are. The most obvious example I can think of right now -.. let's say a wife had an affair or several on business trips out of town. So they work really hard together and things are going well. Then the wife goes out of town without there being any safety or trust plan. Guess what? Something happens and al hell breaks loose. Trust is lost again – perhaps not due to any distrustful behavior, but because the couple hadn't planned on how to stay in touch in order to AVOID a problem. I call that walking into a mine field, knowing it's a mine field, but thinking you can do that unscathed. Being aware – even listing – what is likely to trigger me? Very helpful.  

Increasingly, I've noticed a trend in how people are describing “having fun” – and so much of that time, what they're doing is scrolling thru TikTok or Instagram – Reddit  or Quora – or any online communications app. Even people who are actively struggling with depression will tell me how the major way they “distract” themselves is through focusing on what they can find on their screens.  This... despite all kind of studies showing that the more you interact or are “on” your phone, the more depressed you can become. I'm not advocating that anyone get rid of their phone. But… I do think that a way out of depression is finding tiny bits of fun. I found a “fun” expert – science journalist and TED speaker, Catherine Davis..  We'll talk about her work and research – and use it to wonder together about how you might be experiencing depression and still be able to find “fun.” On a much different note. the voicemail today is from a woman who'd told her husband she was leaving him due to his narcissistic behaviors over 40 years. And then, he fell, broke his back and required extensive hospitalization and has become someone who needs ongoing care for a dementia that will only worsen over time. What would you do? Our Advertiser's Links:  Click HERE for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 - with bonus product with your subscription! Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has a special offer for you now! Other Vital Links: "Happiness" article by Laurie Santos Catherine Price's TED talk Catherine Price's book  How To Break Up With Your Phone Episode Transcript!  This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At Self-Work, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. I'm a clinical psychologist and about seven years ago now, or almost seven years ago, I decided to extend the walls of my practice to those of you who might already be very interested in psychological issues or have sought therapy for yourself, to those of you who've just been figuring out some sort of problem or issue and you want some advice, and to a third group, to those of you who might be just a little more skeptical about mental health treatment and what you could do to help yourself with depression or anxiety, I'm glad for all of you to be here. I wanna remind you that my TEDx talk is out and I will have the link for it in the show notes. I'm very excited as I record this. We're closing in on 9,000 views and it's only been out for four or five days, so I'm so pleased that the message is getting out and you're part of that. So if you've already listened or viewed, actually thank you for that. You can let me know by commenting. And for those of you who want to, it's about a 15 minute video on YouTube. You could also just go to YouTube and put in Dr. Margaret Rutherford and TEDx and it'll come up. So today we're gonna be talking about having fun. Increasingly, I've noticed a big trend in how people who see me are describing having fun and so much of that time what they're doing is scrolling through TikTok or Instagram, Reddit or Quora or any online communications app. Even people who are actively struggling with depression will tell me the major way they distract themselves is through focusing on what they can find on their screens. This, despite all kinds of studies showing that the more you interact or are on your phone, the more depressed you can become. I have a cell phone, which I use quite a lot, and I have fun on some of the apps I have. I get it. Yet.just this morning when my husband and I went out to a local diner for breakfast, we saw a couple. And then they weren't young, but they were older, both with one hand holding their fork with their food, while with the other hand ,they were scrolling through their phones. No conversation, no sharing, and they were definitely not having fun together. So today I'm not advocating that anyone get rid of their phone, but I do think that a way out of depression is finding tiny bits of fun. aAnd I found a fun expert, Catherine Davis, whose Ted Talk will be in your show notes. She's a science journalist and has written a couple of very successful books and she's really fun to listen to. We'll talk about her work and research and use it to wonder together how you might be experiencing depression or anxiety and still be able to find fun. It's also important to be aware that having fun itself is a way out of depression, even though that very statement may seem counterintuitive. How can you have fun if you're depressed? We'll focus on that and of course, what other things you can do about in this episode of SelfWork. On a much different note, the voicemail today is from a woman who told her husband she was leaving him due to his narcissistic behaviors over 40 years. And then he fell, broke his back, and required extensive hospitalization and has become someone who needs ongoing care for dementia that will only worsen over time. I'll try my best to answer her question first. Let's hear about AG1's offer in 2023 for SelfWork listeners. Our next partner is AG one, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. I drink it literally every day. I gave AG one a try because I wanted a single solution that supports my entire body and covers my nutritional bases every day. I wanted better gut health, a boost in energy immune system support. I take it in the morning before starting my day and I make sure and leave it out for my husband because he tends to forget. I love knowing that I'm starting my day so incredibly well and I wouldn't change a thing because it's really helped me the last two or three years I've taken it. And here's a fact, since 2010, they've improved their formula 52 times in the pursuit of making this nutrition supplement possible and the best it can be. So if you wanna take ownership of your health, it starts with ag one. Try ag one and get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free Ag one travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drink ag one.com/selfwork and that's a new link. Drink ag one.com/selfwork. Check it out. People ask me all the time, “How do you do what you do and not get down or depressed yourself?” My first answer is usually because I see so much courage and fight, although it can be hard to hear about the abuse that we humans and especially parents can force onto children. But I also have fun. I laugh all day long with my patients about various and sundry things and I can see a little bit of light in their eyes when they catch themselves enjoying a laugh or recognizing some amusing irony or another in their own lives. So I wondered what I might find in research about having fun and I found Catherine Price. I found a reference to her first in an article by Laurie Santos about her work at Yale where she teaches an extremely popular course on happiness, and I'm gonna have that link in your show notes as well. It's a great article. So she quotes Catherine Price. So I went to go look her up and I think her work's refreshing and more importantly, kind of fun to think about. First, who is Catherine Price? Well, here's her byline. With a background in science journalism and an unshakable curiosity about the world. Catherine Price helps people question their assumptions, make positive changes in their lives, and see mundane things like phones and vitamins in a different more philosophical light. She's also the author of How to Break Up with Your Phone, which is a huge bestseller and I'll have that link for you. So that description intrigued me. I like to think of myself as a very curious person and I think that curiosity helps me to stay energetic and I love to laugh. So, I was more than interested in what Catherine had to say. I watched her Ted Talk and frankly it was funny, she'd reached out internationally and asked people what fun was to them. She got some hilarious answers like roast a Turkey, which I guess could be fun. But what she mostly noted was that many of the answers, in fact most of the answers described doing something, I have fun when I cook, or fishing is fun, or watching old movies is fun. But she believes fun is a feeling, not necessarily an activity. And she goes on to talk about three kinds of fun: fake fun, true fun and activities that bring a sense of fun things that are enjoyable, like taking a bath or talking with a friend. So let's first talk about fake fun. And this resonated so much with what I hear from the TikTok or Instagram addicted people I see as clients. These folks will say to me that they believe scrolling is fun until they realize that it's grown to be addictive. It becomes as Catherine Price calls it, a passive compulsion and one where social comparison happens in a negative direction, which isn't fun at all. In fact, this kind of scrolling only increases self-doubt and leads to self-loathing because of what the scroller can then chastise themselves about wasted time being late because you were staring at your screen literally having to have a hit of TikTok before you do anything on your plan for the day, like waking up and smoking, you gotta have your hit of TikTok. I might add that other addictive behaviors also belong here. Drinking can start out as feeling fun. For example, the alcohol breaks down whatever anxiety you might have about being social so you can have fun. Not so fun is what can happen afterward or the next day when you have little to no energy because you're so hung over. But then the fun can start again when you start drinking right, and this cycle of supposed fun becomes an addiction. This kind of fun sounds to me coming from a therapeutic perspective like distraction, like not wanting to or even fearing looking at yourself or your life honestly or procrastinating what may be a hard thing to do and doing an easy thing in instead, while also creating anxiety that will be waiting for you when your fun is over. So what is real fun or true fun as Catherine calls it? Before we get to that info, here's a word from Better help for 2023, I recently heard a fascinating reframe for the idea of asking for help. Maybe you view asking for help as something someone does who's falling apart or who isn't strong. So consider this. What if asking for help means that you won't let anything get in your way of solving an issue, finding out an answer or discovering a better direction? Asking for help is much more about your determination to recognize what needs your attention or what is getting in your way of having the life you want better help. The number one online therapy provider makes reaching out about as easy as it can get. Within 48 hours, you'll have a professional licensed therapist with whom you can text, email, or talk with to guide you, and you're not having to come through therapist websites or drive to appointments. It's convenient, inexpensive, and readily available. Now you can find a therapist that fits your needs with better help and if you use the code or link better help.com/ selfwork, you get 10% off your first month of sessions. So just do it. You'll be glad you did that. Link again is better help.com/selfwork to get 10% off your first month of services. Today I'm presenting the work of Catherine Davis, whom I've never met, but watched her Ted talk as well as an interview with her and was very impressed with how she talked about and defined fun. She says it has three components, flow, playfulness, and connection. She showed a Venn diagram, which is just circles in this case, and each facet  - flow, playfulness and connection  - are their own circle, but those three circles intersect in the middle. So there's a circle where all three were present and that constitutes real fun. And while I'm gonna talk about these three components, I'm also going to talk about how depression and anxiety can make it harder to create these but not impossible. First, let's take playfulness. Another word for this might be lightheartedness, not taking things so seriously, being spontaneous. She makes the point that when the world is so full of war and hunger and climate change, it can seem uncaring or even self-centered or selfish to have fun. It made me think of the characters of Winnie the Pooh. There's Owl, Rabbit, Kanga, R00, Winnie, Piglet, Tigger, Christopher Robin and Eeyore I found an article about each character's relatability. Which character do you think wins that relatability contest? It might surprise you. It's not the fun loving Tigger or the adventuresome Roo. It's Eeyore, the sad melancholy, the “if something bad happens, it'll be to me” character . In this series- created almost a hundred years ago - the writers were trying to make each of these characters lovable with their strengths showing as well as their vulnerabilities. So why am I bringing this up? Because even Eeyore is capable of having fun. He has a malformed tale but says things like I”I's not much of a tale, but I'm sort of attached to it.” , What is Eeyore doing? Not to overanalyze poor Eeyore, but it seems as if he can see that his perspective is gloomy and depressing, but can also use a tiny bit of energy to care, to see things more positively, dare I say, to have fun. Seeing the funny or the fun and things is more difficult obviously when you're depressed, yes. But if you challenge yourself to learn something new, to stay curious about how to do something, you are building steps to lift your depression or to soothe your anxiety. If you know that being around someone's a downer where being around someone else lifts your spirits, who are you going to choose to go to lunch with? Hopefully the second. Instead of doing the same things every day, which may become more of a trap for your depression rather than a way out, think of something that makes you smile. What if you had fun doing before? I can already hear someone listening to this and who's depressed saying, “Well, it wouldn't be fun now. Hell, I don't even have the energy to try my answer to that.” Depression is hard to fight, especially severe depression. Yet realizing that all you have to do is find enough energy to try one thing that could be fun. Be around someone who is fun to be around. See how you're negating something's value before you've ever tried it. If you don't do those things, you will only stay depressed. So trying to look for what could possibly be playful in your world is so important. The second facet of fun, according to Catherine. Price is connection - and that means connection with a real person, not a screen, not a task or a chore. Because realize you can feel connected without having fun. You and someone else might be grieving together or having an argument. That's connection. But remember we're talking about the three facets of fun. So she states that true fun involves another living being I almost said human being, but then I thought, I think you can have fun with a pet. In fact, think about emotional support animals or the dogs that are regularly taken to see hospital patients. That's connection as well. Isolating can be a huge part of depression. You pull away, you withdraw either because you feel that you're protecting yourself or even that you're protecting others. Nobody needs to be around me now, but that's a mistake, and if you do it regularly, feeling disconnected is very lonely and will wipe out any chance of fun. Think about the tale of Scrooge who spent his life isolating, not dancing, not attending social gatherings because he was too caught up in himself. He didn't take advantage of the opportunities for connection there were in his life, and then fear finally leads him to do so. So what opportunities could you be passing over if you look for them, if you look for a way out of your sadness, you just may find it. The recent movie, A Man Named Otto did just this or told this story. Otto was grieving his wife's death and that's all he could think about until a neighbor needed his help and he got involved with her and her family and began living again. I realize that's a movie, but what opportunities for connection and fun could you be missing? The last facet is flow. Now before you think, “Oh, that's some weird word that's all about meditation” and then dismiss it. Think about some time when you were totally engrossed in something you were doing. It could have been coaching your kid's soccer game or building a piece of furniture or playing piano or guitar where you lost your sense of time. That's flow. Sometimes when I write, I find that two hours has gone by and I'm not even aware of that time that's flow. Now, yesterday I binged on Netflix and my whole afternoon was gone. That was also flow, sort of escapism as well ; , some of those ways to flow are perhaps more constructive, but flow is the third needed component for fun. Think about the last time you and a friend couldn't stop laughing about something, whatever it is, that sense of timelessness for a few seconds or hours is flow. There's a last tip that Ms. Price suggests, and it's on breaking the addictive power of your phone so you're more available to create true fun. I probably like these so much because they're very similar to the questions I ask my patients who are so enmeshed with someone else that I suggest they ask themselves these questions before they reach out trying to break that enmeshment. If I have a likely phone addict in my office, for example, what I'll see is they have to turn it over, but they keep it close by. They know that they'll need to look at it if it's face up. Apple watches or whatever kind of watch you use can also rob you of fun. If you get addicted to how many steps you took, for example, your life becomes about checking or having to check. I stopped wearing mine for just this reason. I felt as if I was becoming hooked on reaching those achievements instead of flowing in my life. Anyway, back to the topic of breaking up with your phone. She suggests using the acronym WWW -  they are questions to ask yourself before you even pick the silly thing up. Ask yourself first,  “What for, or what's the purpose of picking up your phone?” Are you avoiding something? Are you turning to someone else because you're anxious and need calming down? Are you looking for answers that someone else is going to give you because you've convinced yourself you can't do things for yourself? So what for what's the purpose of me scrolling? What's the purpose of me texting? What's the purpose of me going onto YouTube? Maybe it's a very good purpose … but it helps to ask yourself what for. The second question is, “Why right now?” wWhy in this moment are you picking up your phone rather than making another choice? I've heard from several Gen Zers that they pick up their phone the first thing in the morning to check their texts or their number of likes. Now I've been guilty of this as well, and I'm far from a Gen Zer. I've laughingly called it my “self-esteem” fix. But what's the other possibility that you didn't get any likes or there wasn't a text? Does that mean you're worth nothing, that your day off is off to an awful start? Or does it mean that you need to stop doing that looking externally for validation? Yep, that's what would be best. And the third question is, “What else?” What else could I do or say or be or try or be curious about? What are your other choices? What is it that Einstein said? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity or something like that. All you're doing is dredging a deeper tunnel for yourself to get out of. So do something different. Even it's a tiny thing. Tiny is good, tiny is enough. So the three questions are, “What for? What's the purpose? Why right now? And What else?” What else could you do other than picking up that phone and staring at that screen? You know, even fun comes in tiny packages and that can be in making those changes, those tiny changes that can be where you find your joy and your hope and a way out of depression. Speak pipe message from dr margaret rutherford.com And now the voicemail of the week. I told my husband of 40 years I was leaving him because he was narcissistic and abusive and a few days later he fell, broke his back was in the hospital for three months and diagnosed with precipitous cognitive decline. My adult children in their thirties want me to take care of him full-time. They're angry at me for taking any time for myself and they don't really wanna participate in it in a helpful way. I don't know whether to leave. I don't know whether to stay. I don't know what to do. This voicemail was difficult to listen to as you can hear just how trapped the listener sounds. Her story reminded me of several people I've worked with through the years that found themselves in similar situations that their spouses or partners' lives had changed and not for the better. They'd just received a bad medical diagnosis or they'd lost their job. One person was in a coma, maybe they'd been arrested, whatever. But it had happened at a time when my patient had had plans to leave the relationship and they didn't know what to do. So this woman says the same. I don't know what to do. There may be no good answers here. If her husband has treated his children the same way he's treated her, then it's understandable that they don't want to take care of him either. Perhaps they are mad because she can lose her divorce and they feel like they can't divorce their dad. Perhaps one or more of them also share narcissistic traits and are thinking only of themselves. But it sounds as if she's stuck feeling like she told him she's had enough and then his life would have it. Her husband is now dependent on someone's care and she can tell herself it's her care. Yet he's not created the kind of relationships with his family and certainly not with her. That would act as a reason for her to be or likely remain his caregiver. He's not going to turn over a new leaf and not show narcissistic behaviors now, or at least that's not likely to happen. So she feels stuck. I announced I was done and now it feels like if I act on those feelings, I'm betraying my husband, I'm abandoning him. My children will be angry with me. Does that mean she would lose connection with them? I can't tell from her words. What I would wonder with her, if she's been with someone narcissistic for 40 years, she's likely someone who takes on way too much responsibility. Whether that's appropriate or not, that's a long time to spend when you're constantly or often intermittently getting the message that you are not enough, you're not supportive enough, understanding enough , that you fail often, that you're wrong a lot. How has that affected her? What has she done with her anger, with her own grief? But as I've discussed with many people, as you make a choice like this to stay to go think about the things you predict that will be hard about either choice and ask yourself, how would I handle those hard things? Neither choice is likely going to avoid hardship, so which can you cope with better? I looked up precipitous cognitive decline and seems that it's a rapid decline. Does she have the energy for that? Had she made plans to leave that she has then canceled. What she may need to do is sit down with a paper and pencil or whatever and actually write down what she thinks her steps could be or when she's already taken ones that she needs to take. Perhaps talking with a lawyer about separating some of the financial issues. But I'm certainly sorry that this listener finds herself in such a difficult place. Going to a therapist in your local area could be very helpful as you sort out the myriad of feelings you're likely having and again, trying to organize the steps of what it would be like to stay, but probably stay in a different way or to go, you can ask them to help you organize and express those feelings so that whatever decision you make is one you can live with. No decision in either direction is going to be easy. Talk with your true friends about it and allow them to support you and good luck to you. Thank you all for being here. I hope that this was helpful in you thinking about your own fun and how to create it. What I'd really love is for a few of you to leave some reviews on Apple Podcasts especially. It's really kind of funny. I was telling someone the other day, it seemed like they just kept rolling in, the reviews kept rolling in until I reached a thousand, and then it's like somebody says, “oOh, she's got more than a thousand reviews. I won't leave one .” No SelfWork needs them in order for new people -  people who might be considering listening in will have a sense of what self-work is now in 2023. So just take a couple of minutes to leave a rating or review and I'll be so grateful. You can also join my private closed Facebook group. It's at facebook.com/groups/ self-work. That's facebook.com/groups/ self-work. Again, I appreciate you taking the time to be here today with me. You can always email me at ask Dr. Margaret@Drmargaretrutherford.Com and let me know what you'd like for me to talk about. Or you can use the SpeakPipe function that is either on my website@drmargaretrutherford.com, which by the way is new and I think it's really nice . So I'd love for you to go look and there's some new ways to subscribe as well. That, again, is dr margaret rutherford.com. So thank you for being here. Please take very good care of yourself, your loved ones, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret and this has been SelfWork. You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you!    

This interview focuses on suicide prevention so please listen carefully. Here are the international suicide prevention crisis numbers (USA is not 988). I want to read you the first part of the email I sent to our guest today for SelfWork. "Katrina good morning. I'm the host of The SelfWork Podcast and I just saw the CBS Sunday Morning interview about your mom, the way she died, and your actions since it happened. Let me say I'm so sorry about the struggles your mom had all her life and how her bipolar disorder could take her in such destructive directions, ending in her suicide." "I'd love to interview you for SelfWork. I very much admire what you're doing and think it's such a brilliant way of working through the complete mess that gun control conversations can create. It's positive. Proactive. And I know many of my own clients would've signed up." Who is Katrina Brees? She's a grieving daughter turned activitist. And I think she's come up with a brilliant way of bridging the debate over gun control versus the Second Amendment  - as far as it pertains to suicide. It's called Donna's Law. That was her mother's name. And her mother, who hated guns and had often hospitalized herself because she was suicidal, killed herself with a gun. This week you may notice a new sponsor of SelfWork! It's the Jordan Harbinger show – and the ad is in a different format – what's called an introcast - so that you can listen to that information in just a couple of minutes! I've found his show entertaining and intrigiuing and more than welcome his team to SW! Vital Links!  We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just click here! Make sure you use the code "selfwork10" to check out free product! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, SelfWork with Dr. Margaret Rutherford. Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome!   My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript Speaker 1: (00:10) This is Self-Work, and I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford at Self-Work. We'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and Self-Work is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own self-work. Speaker 1: (00:29) Hello and welcome or welcome back to Self-Work. I'm Dr. Margaret, and I'm so glad you're here. Before we get to the actual intro for this interview, I wanna make sure you know that it focuses on suicide prevention, so please listen carefully. We have a great interview today. Maybe a little controversial, but I certainly hope not. I want to read you the first part of the email I sent to our guest today for self-work. Her name is Katrina Breeze. Katrina, good morning. I'm the host of the Self-Work podcast, and I just saw the CBS Sunday morning interview about your mom, the way she died, and your actions since it happened. Let me say, I'm so sorry about the struggles your mom had all her life and how her bipolar disorder could take her in such destructive directions ending in her suicide. I've heard many stories and have my own concern and passion about how destructive perfectionism and suicide are linked, but that's not the point of this email. Speaker 1: (01:28) This morning, I'd sat down to write an episode on suicide, but I decided to switch on CBS's Sunday morning and saw your interview. That's all the synergy I needed to find out how to reach out to you. I'd love to interview you for self-work. I very much admire what you're doing and think it's such a brilliant way of working through the complete mess that gun control conversations can create. It's positive, proactive, and I know many of my own clients would've signed up. That was my email. Now, who is Katrina Breeze? She's a grieving daughter turned activist, and I think she's come up with a brilliant way of bridging the gun debate, as well as the debate about the Second Amendment as far as it pertains to suicide. Her mother was named Donna, and it's called Donna's Law. And her mother who hated guns and had often hospitalized herself because she was suicidal, killed herself with a gun. Speaker 1: (02:25) Here's some facts you may not know before you turn off. Hold on. Firearms are the most common means of suicide in 2020. Firearms were used in 53% of suicides with 24,292 gun suicide victims annually. This is a leading cause of death for Americans... That's more than 66 people each day. Many suicide attempts are impulsive, and the vast majority of survivors do not keep trying until they succeed. But people who choose firearms as their suicide method very rarely survive. About 85% of gun suicide attempts end in death. Donna's law, also known as the "voluntary do not sell list", gives a person the option to voluntarily and confidentially put their own names into the federal background check system to prevent impulsive gun purchases for a suicide attempt. Donna Nathan should have been able to have suspended her own ability to buy a gun, and that's what we're talking about today. I think it's an incredible solution to a very sticky problem. Before we hear from Katrina, here's a quick message from BiOptimizers Magnesium Breakthrough. Speaker 1: (03:49) Hey guys, I wanna share with you that recently I've been working on some very important projects that have very short deadlines, as always, right? Seems everything today is a sap anyway, I have not been able to keep up with all of my self-care routine. I certainly haven't had breaks to have proper meals, and I'm drinking way too much ice tea. I was starting to get really stressed out when I remembered that the magnesium breakthrough I take every night is also a great support for stress management. I'd kind of forgotten that. In fact, magnesium is responsible for over 300 body reactions, and magnesium breakthrough is the only magnesium formula that delivers all seven different forms of magnesium. I didn't know there were seven forms, one of them being feeling more calm, centered and in control of our stress. If you are trying to balance life demands, give it a try. Trust me, your mind and your body will thank you for it. What you can do is visit mag breakthrough.com/ self-work and order now. Oh, and addition to the discount you get by using promo code 10, so that's different self work, 10. They're also amazing gifts with purchase. That's why I love shopping at BiOptimizers. Again, go to mag breakthrough.com/self work to get your magnesium breakthrough and find out this month's gift with purchase. Speaker 1: (05:12) Again, I wanna stress Katrina's not talking about limiting gun sales to anyone, but people who want to voluntarily say, I don't need to buy a gun. So I hope you'll listen to her story. She's passionate and she wants to save people like her mom. Katrina, can you tell SelfWork listeners about why you are, you know, of course about your mother and then how you're using her death as a momentum for this incredible project and incredible legislation? Speaker 2: (05:55) Sure. Um, I'll start with what the legislation is. Um, Donna's law is a voluntary tool that people can use to prevent themselves from purchasing a gun. Mm-hmm. . So it enables somebody to put themselves on a list that is confidential, reversible, and does not interfere with the second Amendment in order to prevent an impulsive gun purchase in an episode of suicidality or, or for whatever other reason they want to prohibit themselves from guns, um, from a gun sale. And, um, I lost my mom in 2018 to an impulsive gun suicide. She picked up her phone and she typed in how to hang herself and Google told her that the better idea would be to buy a handgun. Yeah. Um, then helped direct her to the closest gun store where she essentially pressed go on her phone and was dead. Very shortly after that, she took it to the park and she shot herself. I had no idea at that time that it was that easy to buy a gun where we live. I, it, it is still shocking to me and completely uncomfortable that I live in a place where it is that easy and that fast to buy a gun. Um, even for somebody that has absolutely no training, um, no license, no waiting period. Right. Um, she had been, uh, in psychiatric hospitalization three times before this that did not. And Speaker 1: (07:41) She had gone voluntarily for those. Correct. She, because she really wanted help and she knew she had bipolar disorder and she accepted that and she was working with her doctors, and there were times when she was really well, I mean, well mm-hmm. , she was doing great. She was managing bipolar disorder well mm-hmm. Speaker 2: (07:59) . Yeah. Uh, and our family really did everything and she did everything, and she was very knowledgeable. Our our family has many doctors in it. We were very supportive. Um, we were on top of it every day. . Yeah. Um, my mom's partner, even during this episode that she was having quit his job and stayed home all day long with her to supervise her, and it still wasn't enough. Mm-hmm. Um, because it was just minutes away from her being able to get a gun. And, um, so I mean, immediately after this happened to my family, I was like, how could this be like? Right. I talked to some lawyer friends that had guns, and I was like, do, "How could my mom be sold a gun after she was in the psychiatric hospital?" This, you know, I thought that was impossible. And, um, everything about the gun sale was legal. And, um, at that point I was just completely committed to, to changing that and, um, used the massive tidal wave of energy, that grief and trauma. That's right. And shock . And I surfed this, that wave of energy into Donna's law immediately. I mean, within, within 24 hours of knowing about her death, I was having conversations with, um, the gun policy maker for Amnesty International, and we were conceiving this legislation. Um, it was it very immediate that, that I chose to This Speaker 1: (09:51) Is how you were grieving. I mean, this is how Speaker 2: (09:53) You Yeah. And I was, I was scared too of, of, um, other ways that I could get into to, I don't know, process that trauma. Um, you know, I've, uh, I have a lot of friends that have experienced trauma, and I've watched them after that make their lives worse in a lot of ways. Yes, Speaker 1: (10:18) It Speaker 2: (10:19) Can. And having something like this happen, it was so obvious how I could make my life worse immediately to me, . Uh, and, uh, and, and Speaker 1: (10:30) That happens a lot in a family. That happens in with friends that happens, you know, in communities. Um, there's certainly, uh, a there can I say my words this morning? There's certainly an, an acknowledgement and a in a lot of research has gone into that, that people hear that someone died by suicide, and then they think, well, then I will, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It's, it's, it's, um, the person who dies by suicide doesn't mean for that to happen. It's not an intentional act to try to, uh, create that dynamic, but it does create that dynamic. Speaker 2: (11:04) Yes. Um, I was shocked by how loud the voice to shoot myself was immediately after that. And, um, thank you. And I, I knew the gun store, the gun dealer's business card was left on my mom's passenger seat. I had like, so many fantasies of going over there and buying a gun and shooting myself and, um, pushing myself into doing Donna's law brought into my life, many survivors of similar tragedies. Um, and, um, like with Mom's Demand Action, I mean, there I felt like all of a sudden I had a million moms that had wanted to . Speaker 1: (11:58) Well, you know, it, it also, for years we've had, um, we've had a policy in place where gambling people with gambling addictions can mm-hmm. can sign up at the, at the casinos, don't let me in the door, you know? Mm-hmm. , uh, they're literally barring themselves from gambling. And it's something that, uh, they do voluntarily and they do because they know it's a problem. And, and it's something about putting that hurdle in front of it. They can, again, renege on it and say, okay, I, I wanna take my name off, but it's completely voluntary. And that's exactly what you're saying. One of the reasons why I, you know, I, I live in a state where there are a lot of people. I, I live in Arkansas and there are a lot of people that have guns. There are a lot of people, you know, I have guns all over the United States, but this is not about challenging that. Speaker 1: (12:45) It's about challenging the idea that, um, so many firearms deaths are suicides, 60 to 65% of them, I think mm-hmm. Suicides. And we tend to think of it, the homicidal part of it, and we don't think of the suicidal part of it. So in, in essence, you're saying someone with major depression or someone who literally has just gone through some trauma themselves and realized that's beginning to crop up in their thinking. They don't have to have a diagnosis of a mental illness. It's simply that they know they are in a bad place, and it is a prohibition for them. Uh, it's like alcoholics not going in a, in a bar , you know? Mm-hmm. , uh, I know I can't, you know, I may not be able to resist that thought, and so I'm going to prohibit myself. I'm gonna stop myself before I even get started. Speaker 2: (13:34) Yeah. I wanted to, um, add two things I've learned about the things you're talking about is, uh, one in Pennsylvania right now, there is a bill to enable people to opt out of their ability to purchase alcohol from, uh, really I believe a state, a state liquor store. Um, so, uh, this type of, um, self contract is sometimes called a Ulysses Pact, um, from Homer, the Odyssey that, um, he ties himself to the boat to avoid the, the songs of the sirens and is able to like survive. I guess I haven't read the book . Um, and then the other thing I wanted to point out, uh, um, the gambling one is everyone who has talked to me about being on the list of the gambling prohibition is also someone who is bipolar. And, um, destroying one's finances is often something that can happen easily when someone is a, in an psychotic episode or in a mania. Um, so p people who know that, that there are times where they will make, um, better decisions and there will be times that they'll make worse decisions, um, I believe should be able to utilize these tools. Um, and I hope there becomes more of them. I love the idea of someone being able to, to stop their ability to buy alcohol. Yes. Um, I mean, what a beautiful tool that is. Speaker 1: (15:08) Now three states have passed Donna's law, correct? Speaker 2: (15:12) Yes. Virginia, Utah, and Washington. Speaker 1: (15:15) Tell me about your mom. Speaker 2: (15:17) She was very funny and she was very smart, educated, worldly. She loved music and dance. She was so generous to everybody. She had a huge heart for any animal, whether it was a lizard or a human. If it was suffering, she would be the first to intervene and try and protect that creature. Um, she was, uh, she had a lot of struggle with, um, mental illness throughout her life and worked incredibly hard to protect herself from suicide, um, which made Donna's life even more obvious because she really was an incredible advocate for her own mental health care, and so was I. And so was her partner. And, um, uh, there was a lot of strength in her, in her care circle. Mm-hmm. . Um, she had recently had a step grand baby that she was super excited about, and there was another one coming and, um, Speaker 1: (16:38) Oh, I can see that's a, that's a very tender spot. Yeah. Speaker 2: (16:41) Yeah. Like, it's like, I just know she didn't wanna miss that. Mm-hmm. Speaker 1: (16:47) Mm-hmm. And that's the thing, one of the, somebody listening who doesn't know a lot about bipolar disorder or mental illness in general is that when those, I'll call them voices or that energy or that impulsivity, when, when it is going on, you can completely lose sight of who you are at your most stable. It's almost as if there's a part of you that gets turned off. Um, mm-hmm. , did she have any psychotic episodes, or did she just have the bipolar disorder Speaker 2: (17:21) In the last year of her life? She had, um, very obvious psychotic episodes. Okay. And things like hearing voices. Right. And, um, extreme paranoia. Um, Speaker 1: (17:37) Mostly when she was manic, Speaker 2: (17:41) I, the, the end of her life, I guess it's like mixed state. Okay. Um, it, she was pretty much in like a panic attack for three months and she didn't sleep. And I would say insomnia played a big part in it. And, um, yeah, I mean, she wasn't, she wasn't really making any bad decisions. She was really just like in her house suffering. There Speaker 1: (18:13) Were a lot of Okay. She was fighting, fighting, fighting. Speaker 2: (18:15) Yeah. There was a lot of physical things happening to her also, um, with, uh, the medications that they were trying on her. And she had very intense tremors, and her hands shook so bad that, um, for the last several months of her life, she couldn't hold a fork because she would just stab her face and she had to eat all her food with like a, like her paw mm-hmm. , um, just bringing it to her mouth and, um, she couldn't write very well, um, because her hands were shaking, um, which made it even more offensive that a gun dealer would sell her a gun. Speaker 1: (19:04) Right, right. Uh, it is almost, it's impossible that she could have curbed all that and walked in and been looking much more normal. And obviously there were some things going on there that the gun dealer would've noticed. Mm-hmm. , what, what has establishing this, um, well, what, let me ask you this. What are y'all doing currently? Um, it's, the bill has been introduced to Congress, but they have not done anything. Is that, is that correct? Speaker 2: (19:32) Well, they've done a lot, but it hasn't progressed Speaker 1: (19:36) . Okay, okay. Speaker 2: (19:37) But they do invest a lot of resources that I appreciate, and there are offices there that are very busy working, so to say they've done nothing, um, wouldn't be fair to the, to the efforts. Speaker 1: (19:50) Did you get a lot of of feedback from your CBS um, interview? I bet you did. Speaker 2: (19:55) Oh, yeah. And so positive, I mean, I, I didn't get anything negative. I mean, I probably got like 200 emails that were so supportive and, um, lots more like interviews like with you and, uh, I love podcasting, so other podcasts and, um, other news sources and, um, it's also, it's made me realize like a lot of people were like, I wanna bring this to my state, which is amazing, but, um, I did not. Well, Speaker 1: (20:31) How do people do that? That's what I was gonna ask you next. Speaker 2: (20:33) Well, that was the next piece of work I had to do. So I created a Donna's Law Starter Pack the last couple weeks, and I've been creating all the templates and strategies for people to be able to do that in the most efficient, um, no cost way. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so essentially it just involves, um, choosing who the potential sponsors in your state could be, which will most likely be someone who has already sponsored a suicide prevention bill. Um, looking, also, another option of who it could be is, um, someone that's on the committee that will be determining whether this moves forward or not, um, because they have a stake in it and they have relationships with other people on that committee. Um, so it's, it, it's pretty fast to just identify a very small amount of people in a state and then just try to send them some of the letters that I've created templates for. And I feel like, um, excuse me, uh, I feel like I've created something that someone can hopefully just put a couple minutes into, a couple times a month and, um, perhaps if the climate's right in their state, bring it forward. Speaker 1: (22:00) How has, I mean, how have you grieved your mom? Speaker 2: (22:04) Um, I don't, I don't, I can't, I don't have like another dead mom to compare it to , so Speaker 1: (22:10) You're funny . Speaker 2: (22:13) So I'm not sure what it's like otherwise, but I do feel like it's been an incredible privilege and opportunity to have the support of the media at very difficult times and moments in my grief. And a lot of those people like you are in the mental health field, talk to me, um, and asking me specific questions that make me think and that lead my thinking into, um, Speaker 1: (22:52) Uh, Speaker 2: (22:52) How, how I was able to use this to help me, you know? And I think that one of the big things is not feeling shame. That's right. Not not feeling like zero shame. Like, I have zero shame that my mom shot herself. I mean, I have a stack of shames, and this is not on the list. Speaker 1: (23:16) , it's not even in the list. It's, it's not even the, what is that old fairy tale? The princess and the pea it's not even the pea . Right. . Speaker 2: (23:26) Um, so I, I assume that's beneficial. Um, it's been amazing to see my mom's picture like being waived at Congress by representatives. And, and there's this part of all this that feels like my mom is kind of like an organ donor. Like, like, because like she gets to donate her story and her photo, and that is so valuable to legislation. Speaker 1: (24:06) She is the person that, she's Donna, I mean, she mm-hmm. , she, her, her life and her death, the way she lived her life and, and then the way she killed herself is going to be honored. Uhhuh is honored by this law. There are... there's people's lives that she will save. Speaker 2: (24:27) Yeah. And, um, Speaker 1: (24:28) And you'll save by the way. Speaker 2: (24:30) Thank you. And you'll save as well. Um, I think that another aspect of it is like, when this first happened, um, I was dating this guy and he had this really great family, and one of my feelings like right away was like, "Oh my God, like his family is gonna think I'm, you know, unstable and Right. They're probably gonna think that I'm gonna do it, and now they know my mom is how she is." And I just felt like I can't, I can't let this be the end of my mom's story because that doesn't, that doesn't feel good to me for the end of her story to be that. Then she put a bullet in her head alone in a park. Um, but having the end of her story be that then she became a law that empowered people with a tool for self-defense Speaker 1: (25:40) Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: (25:41) Against one of the most common ways that people die in our country Speaker 1: (25:50) And the most lethal the most, yeah. Yeah. The most, the, the, the quote unquote best way to Yeah. As Google told your mom. Speaker 2: (25:59) And, um, another, another way that it's really helped me is, um, well meeting amazing people that really care about this and are willing to talk about it, because I can't really like be talking about gun suicide on like dates and stuff all the time. . Speaker 1: (26:17) Yeah. Now, you know, the world of a, a therapist, some people go, no, can't you talk about something else? Speaker 2: (26:22) . Right, right. Speaker 1: (26:24) Are you any fun? Speaker 2: (26:25) Right. But, and I'm like, but this is inspiring and innovative . Um, another way that it's really helped me is, um, meeting advocates of the bill that are bipolar people that have experienced suicidality and want to opt out of their ability to purchase a gun. Mm-hmm. . And through meeting them, it's really helped me understand what my mom was going through. And it's given me so much more respect for her. And I regret that in her life. I thought that she should work harder to hold it together. Yeah. Because now I realize that she was working as hard as she could Speaker 1: (27:11) Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: (27:12) And that she was holding a lot together. Speaker 1: (27:16) You know, I, I think with any, any kind of chronic mental illness, it's, that is a, that is a fight in and of itself because it is the chronicity of it and people watch you dealing with it and they don't know how hard you, you know, how hard it is to get outta bed or how hard it is to control those impulses or to deal with hearing voices. I mean, it's just, and that was her every day. Mm-hmm. . And I think it's difficult for other people to understand and so that you've gotten a firsthand account from these folks about Yeah. It is a, it is a huge job to, to control this kind of illness. Speaker 2: (27:55) Yeah. Um, Speaker 1: (27:57) Or try to control it. Speaker 2: (27:59) Yeah. And also, um, being able to say that my mom shot herself is something that was not allowed on, on the news four years ago. Really. And I have, yeah. I mean, even when I go on YouTube to watch my own interview on CBS Sunday morning, it gives me two content warnings and a recommendation for the suicide helpline. Just cuz I wanna watch my own interview mm-hmm. Speaker 1: (28:27) mm-hmm. . Speaker 2: (28:29) I mean that is, but I can, I mean, I can see some horrific scene from the Ukraine war and the media doesn't mind showing me that mm-hmm. Speaker 1: (28:39) . Speaker 2: (28:40) Um, so Speaker 1: (28:41) That's a great point. Speaker 2: (28:42) But my mom deserves some of the credit for how this conversation has really opened up and, um, given the country a way to talk about it that isn't so depressing and is kind of inspiring . Mm-hmm. Speaker 1: (28:55) , it's more than kinda of inspiring. It's inspiring. Speaker 2: (28:59) Thank you very much. Um, so Donna's law isn't just gonna protect the, that 65% mm-hmm. , um, from suicide. It's also gonna protect people from accidentally, or not accidentally, but in an episode to shoot somebody that they love. Mm-hmm. , I mean, I was think, I was looking at data today about the percentage of men that shoot themselves after shooting their domestic partner. And it, it was, um, I can't remember the state, but it was 59%. And I thought about it and one of the things I do in my work is I don't fight for gun control. I'm not fighting and I'm definitely not fighting gun enthusiasts about it. No. Speaker 1: (29:45) Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: (29:46) , um, I compassion for, um, gun violence prevention and that compassion starts with me compassion for the other person if I expect them to compassion for me. And so I was looking at that data today about men who shoot their partner and I thought if I had just shot my partner, I would want to shoot myself Speaker 1: (30:10) Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: (30:10) , you know, like, what a sad thing. I mean, what an awful, horrific thing to experience mm-hmm. to shoot your partner. And I wanna protect those people too. Speaker 1: (30:25) Well, you know, I'm thinking as you were talking about this, advocating for greater awareness and acceptance that this is what's happening. Uh, I have noticed, uh, and again, I, I live in a pretty conservative state, but I have noticed that when more and more people who are dying by suicide, their families are choosing to include that in the obituary. Mm-hmm. , their families are including, they, they, they want that to be known. So how is this changing you as a person, Katrina? How, how has Speaker 2: (30:56) Changed Oh, so much changed your Speaker 1: (30:57) Family? How's it Speaker 2: (30:58) It has changed my family. Um, when I first started doing this work, my family, except for one person, showed me zero support about it. Speaker 1: (31:08) Wow. Speaker 2: (31:09) And I, it's been, it was years before. I got real acknowledgement from my family of support on this work. And I was even told not to do this work by my family. I was told that what I was talking about was like nonsense. Speaker 1: (31:34) Wow. Speaker 2: (31:35) Um, I was, I think that there was a lot of fear because they Speaker 1: (31:38) Were, was that, did that come from their own humiliation or their own shame or? Speaker 2: (31:42) I think it came from their fear of me putting my life on the line to discuss gun control in America. Speaker 1: (31:49) I see. Right. Speaker 2: (31:50) Impulsive gun suicide is, did not begin in my family with my mom. There were four other suicides in our family before my mom that, um, having my mom's death be in the newspaper, having me ask questions cuz reporters were asking questions and learning about my own family history of suicide, um, has really opened up the conversation. Um, and I mean, our family for generations has been defined by suicide. And then, um, almost all parts of my family have experienced suicide on like, people say like, um, oh, was there bipolar on your mom's side? And it's like, no, but there's a ton of it on my dad's side. Speaker 1: (32:42) . Really? Wow. Speaker 2: (32:45) So like, it, um, it, it's like coming at me on both sides now and, um, it has really opened up the conversation from my family's elders that have experienced a lot of these losses and also, um, how does my generation in our family protect each other? Mm-hmm. . And, um, I mean, I still don't see a lot of my family like sharing my articles on social media or, or much like that, but they'll text me and, you know, tell me that they're proud of it. Um. Speaker 1: (33:26) Good. I'm glad. I'm glad. Speaker 2: (33:28) So it's, it's evolving and, um, I'm gonna keep going and I assume that they're gonna keep opening up about it and I hope at some point they're gonna be testifying in their states in front of their legislatures in support of this mm-hmm. . Um, because it's it's coming to their states soon. . Speaker 1: (33:48) . You're gonna make sure of that, it sounds like. Yeah. Speaker 2: (33:52) . Speaker 1: (33:54) Well, it has been an honor talking with you and I really appreciate this so much. Speaker 2: (33:58) Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate being able to, um, share this knowledge with your, with your listeners and with you. It's been a beautiful conversation. Great. Speaker 1: (34:19) Thanks so much for listening in to self work today. It's an honor for you to be here and I so appreciate the fact that you are here and you give us your time. This week you may notice a new sponsor of Self-Work. It's the Jordan Harbinger Show and the ad is in a different format, what's called an intra cast, so that you can listen to that information in just a couple of minutes. It'll be listed as the second episode in your podcast app. I found his show to be entertaining and intriguing, and I more than welcome his team to self-work. Please take very good care, as I say, every episode of yourself, your family, the people you care about, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret and this has been self-work.    

Could your perfectionism actually be a sign of depression?Today, Jenn is talking with Dr. Margaret Rutherford, a clinical psychologist with thirty years of experience, who is also an author, TedX speaker, and podcast host. Dr. Rutherford discusses the two types of perfectionism, and how one version of it is maladaptive and is actually harming us. She describes what socially determined perfectionism is, and gives some helpful tips about identifying it and tools to work through challenging the behaviors. Tune in to find out if perfectionism might actually be hiding your pain.This episode may contain topics that are triggering such as abuse and suicide.The Salad With a Side of Fries podcast is hosted by Jenn Trepeck, discussing wellness and weight loss for real life, clearing up the myths, misinformation, bad science & marketing surrounding our nutrition knowledge and the food industry. Let's dive into wellness and weight loss for real life, including drinking, eating out, and skipping the grocery store. IN THIS EPISODE:●   [6:10] Was Dr. Margaret Rutherford always interested in the psychology space?●   [7:50] Did Dr. Margaret Rutherford struggle with eating in her younger years?●   [11:00] How did she come to find the overlap of perfectionism and depression? ●   [14:46] Where is the line between a coping or survival strategy vs. behaviors that are maladaptive and hurt us?●   [20:34] What is socially determined perfectionism?●   [26:44] If we don't identify with this conversation, how can we support others who may? ●   [30:39] How do vulnerabilities translate into flaws?●   [31:46] How do we help people walk through healing? What are Dr. Margaret Rutherford's 5 stages of healing?●   [37:37] How do you start to challenge your behaviors?●   [38:55] How does Dr. Rutherford help patients find true self compassion?●   [41:03] Why is “breaking the silence” so important?KEY TAKEAWAYS:●   How we hide perfectionism depression: we don't allow the experience of negative emotions. It's almost like dissociating, like it's there, but we don't feel it. There is also the fear of being exposed. The shame invades our self worth. Vulnerability translates into flaws. ●   Even if you have moved past or healed past toxic behaviors, it is still possible to struggle with toxic thinking. For example, if you've struggled with an eating disorder in the past but no longer have those behaviors, you may still struggle with the thoughts that come with eating disordered thinking. ●   Many times, the effort to control the uncontrollable often shows up in our food as perfectionism. ●   Not all perfectionism is destructive, but destructive or maladaptive perfectionism is. Maladaptive perfectionism can lead to increased risk of suicidality and it can be easy to hide. QUOTES: “But the trauma timeline is very helpful for people because it actually asks you to go back to certain times in your life when you were very young, to when you're a teenager, to when you're in your twenties or thirties, and talk about the things or acknowledge the things that were helpful to you, that really helped you feel good about yourself and the things that did not, the things that began to make you feel unsafe or unlovable. And you wanna go back with compassion. It's not about blaming people.” - Dr. Margaret Rutherford“But where you get hope is when you see yourself change. When you allow yourself to express an emotion you've never allowed yourself to express. When you do something or you don't do something you always do, that you can begin to say I am making choices in the moment.” - Dr. Margaret Rutherford“It just begins opening. It begins giving you freedom. Self-compassion is important, but so is the sense of self-acceptance. And my working definition of self-acceptance is that neither your strengths nor your vulnerabilities completely define you. They both exist, but they don't. Neither one of them completely define who you are.” - Dr. Margaret Rutherford"Looking closer at your own perfectionism and understanding yourself might be a critical piece for your mental and physical health." - Jenn TrepeckRESOURCES:Become A Member of Salad with a Side of FriesJenn's Free Menu PlanA Salad With a Side of FriesA Salad With a Side of Fries InstagramGUEST RESOURCES: Dr. Margaret Rutherford WebsitePerfectly Hidden Depression BookThe Self Work PodcastJenn as a Guest on Dr. Rutherford's Podcast: 340 SelfWork: What You Need to Know About the Merry-Go-Round of Dieting: A Conversation with Jenn TrepeckDr. Margaret Rutherford's InstagramGUEST BIO:Margaret Robinson Rutherford Ph.D., a clinical psychologist with thirty years of experience, is also an author, TedX speaker, and podcast host. Her book, Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression, has reached thousands here in the US, as well as having an international impact, with translations reaching from Korea to Italy, Turkey to Germany. Her highly popular podcast, The SelfWork Podcast, has been continuously rated as one of the best podcasts for mental health and depression.Dr. Margaret's known for her vibrantly engaging and theoretically well-crafted presentations, whether live or virtual. Whether her diverse audiences are made up of mental health professionals, construction workers, or office managers, her passionate message is that healthy mental and emotional lives can be created through becoming more transparent with one another. Sharing who you really are with those you trust is a huge step toward connection and good mental health. Rates of depression and suicide are skyrocketing. And there's something we can do!She's further challenging the mental health profession to question their overreliance on the official symptom checklist for diagnosis. Instead, we need to create normalcy around suicidal feelings, listen to each person's actual experience of their life, and respond with safety and compassion, rather than stigmatizing this very real and excruciatingly painful part of human existence

Episode 248  Depression affects everyone, regardless of gender or age. By hiding our depression, we make it harder to accept and express ourselves and increase the struggle to live as our authentic selves. We adopt destructive perfectionism behaviors that make it more difficult to show vulnerability in an attempt to present a flawless image to the world. Dr. Margaret Rutherford is here to talk about her book, Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free From the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression.  Dr. Margaret Rutherford is a clinical psychologist with thirty years of experience as well as an author and podcaster. Her highly popular podcast, The SelfWork Podcast, has been continuously rated as one of the best for mental health and depression, earning 1.3 M downloads in 2022 alone (total near 4 M, IAB stats). Dr. Margaret shares her journey to acceptance, the link between depression and destructive perfectionism, and the signs of Perfectly Hidden Depression.  This episode shares information about the ideations of suicide. Please listen with care.  What you'll hear in this episode:  An Explanation of Perfectly Hidden Depression The Types of Perfectionism and 10 Traits of Perfectly Hidden Depression Ideations of suicide and their relation to destructive perfectionism How Alcohol and substance abuse play a role in hidden depression How to recognize and get support to help you overcome depression To read this episode's full show notes, go here.       

Krista St-Germain is a Master Certified Life Coach, Post-Traumatic Growth and grief expert, widow, mom and host of The Widowed Mom Podcast. When her husband was killed by a drunk driver in 2016, Krista's life was completely and unexpectedly flipped upside down. After therapy helped her uncurl from the fetal position, Krista discovered Life Coaching, Post Traumatic Growth and learned the tools she needed to move forward and create a future she could get excited about. Now she coaches and teaches other widows so they can love life again, too. Krista has been featured online and in print in Psychology Today, Medium, Thrive Global, Bustle, Psych Central and Parents Magazine and on select podcasts such as The SelfWork Podcast, Seek The Joy, Life Check Yourself and You Need A Budget to name a few. Links: Instagram | Facebook | Widowed Moms Podcast | MediaInThis EpisodeKrista's WebsiteKrista's podcast: The Widowed Mom podcastThis show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/5739761/advertisement

The episode has been downloaded more than 7,000 times. Find out why, Dr. Margaret Rutherford recently had Giving Voice to Depression podcast co-host Terry on the SelfWork podcast to talk about the experience of interviewing people with depression for the past six years. Check out this and other episodes of SelfWork here: https://drmargaretrutherford.com/305-selfwork-giving-voice-to-depression-a-conversation-with-podcast-host-terry-mcguire/ Link to Dr. Margaret's website: https://drmargaretrutherford.com/

I'm joined by Dr. Margaret Rutherford, a psychologist with over 25 years of experience, author of Perfectly Hidden Depression, and host of The SelfWork Podcast. Her research is mainly centered around the mental health effects of perfectionism. She's passionate about helping people get out of that thought pattern and live authentic, balanced, and healthy lives. Perfectly Hidden Depression is a compassionate guide that walks readers through the process of understanding their perfectionism, identifying destructive beliefs, and uncovering repressed emotions. Dr. Margaret details tangible tips for quieting that critical inner voice, and powerful strategies for coping with difficult feelings, including her ‘5 C's' method. She created The SelfWork Podcast, which has over 300 episodes and 3.5 million downloads, to broaden the conversation around mental health. Dr. Margaret  also works closely with This Is My Brave, a non-profit organization that believes in the power of storytelling to break down the stigma surrounding mental illness. This Is My Brave has produced over 75 unique shows in cities across the world and featured nearly 875 storytellers sharing true, personal stories on overcoming depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, and more. Listen to today's episode to hear how Dr. Margaret  is breaking down barriers and normalizing conversations about mental health. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, TuneIn, Simplecast, or on your favorite podcast platform. Topics Covered:How Dr. Margaret made the bold decision to pivot her career from singer to therapist Recognizing when your actions are driven by the past, and how to shift that narrative Leaning and growing into your curiosities and passions - even in your 60'sHow to identify signs and symptoms of perfectly hidden depression in your loved ones The importance of keeping your energy focused on what you have control over About our guest: Dr. Margaret's WebsiteDr. Margaret's InstagramThe SelfWork PodcastPerfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism That Masks Your DepressionThis Is My BraveSpecial Offers: If there's a topic or charity you want me to highlight on the podcast, DM it to me on Instagram @getbusylivin_podFollow Us:Get Busy Livin' Podcast WebsiteGet Busy Livin' Podcast Instagram Get Busy Livin' Podcast TwitterAnne's Website Anne's LinkedInAnne's InstagramAnne's Twitter

In this episode, I talk with Dr. Margaret Rutherford, a psychologist, author, and host of The SelfWork Podcast. In this episode, we discuss.. - how perfectionism and perfectionistic tendencies can mask depression - why being vulnerable makes us feel unsafe  - difficulty allowing yourself to express or feel anger, loss, grief, and other uncomfortable emotions  - understanding perfectionism, destructive belief processes, and connecting with suppressed emotions You can learn more about Dr. Rutherford and her book, "Perfectly Hidden Depression", here: https://drmargaretrutherford.com/about/ This podcast should not be substituted, nor is meant to act as a substitute, for legitimate mental health treatment/a legitimate mental health treatment provider. This podcast and any information in it is solely the reflection of general knowledge and cannot be taken as a personal therapeutic recommendation.  To find a therapist near you to work more directly with these issues, head over to treatmyocd.com, IOCDF.org,  or nami.org. Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/jennaoverbaugh/support Join me on my #14daysofmagic challenge to become your best self for 14 days - learn more at magicmind.co/14daysofmagic and use code ATHT14 for 20% off. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/jennaoverbaugh/support

The Behind the Confident Smile Podcast is a weekly conversation with Bianca Cotton, founder of the Behind the Confident Smile, author, wife, mom, poet, and hope dealer. Join me on this journey of revealing what's behind your smile. Bianca speaks with Dr. Margaret Rutherford, a clinical psychologist, who has practiced for over twenty-five years in Fayetteville, Arkansas. They have an enlightening conversation about what perfectly hidden depression is and her journey to becoming a clinical psychologist. Dr. Margaret's passion within the last decade has been to bring compassionate and common-sense advice to her audiences, through her writing on her own website, as well as in Psychology Today, Psych Central, Himalaya, the Gottman Blog, and others. She hosts a highly popular podcast, The SelfWork Podcast, which is consistently ranked in the top 50 of US mental health podcasts and has been chosen by several mental health websites as one of ten best mental health podcasts of 2021. She's also given monthly Facebook Live presentations for Mental Health On The Mighty for five years, and is finding her voice here on Fireside with a new show called SelfWork Chat! Her book Perfectly Hidden Depression (New Harbinger, 2019) also focuses a much-needed light on the dangerous link between destructive perfectionism, depression, and suicidal thought, and earned a spot in Parade Magazine's “Top Ten Books on Depression” for 2021. Where to Find Dr. Margaret @drmargaretrutherford drmargaretrutherford.com Connect with us on IG @behindtheconfidentsmilepodcast and our host @biancancotton To visit our website and purchase your copy of Captivating Confidence: An 11-Step Guide to Develop a Healthy Relationship with Yourself and Own Your Inner Greatness, click here. Thanks for tuning in. Leave a review. Share this episode with a friend!

Have you ever been in a relationship where you don't feel trust?   Here is a special bonus episode highlighting one of Ashley's favorite resources, the SelfWork Podcast hosted by Dr. Margarete Rutherford. In this featured episode, Dr. Margarete shares insight on all aspects of trauma bonding and what this may mean for your relationship.   Trauma bonding happens when trust is highly manipulated; when commitment and trying to make a relationship work are used against someone as a way to keep them in denial or disbelief that a relationship is harmful to them. In this episode, Dr. Margaret Rutherfords walk through how to notice if you are in a relationship like this, how to get out, and ways to heal from trauma bonding.    In This Episode, You'll Learn: What trauma bond is. How trauma bonding forms. Ways in which trauma bonding can show up in a romantic relationship and why this dynamic can be so impactful on the success of a relationship. Where To Find Dr. Margarete Rutherford:   SelfWork Podcast with Dr. Margarete Rutherford https://drmargaretrutherford.com/   Resources: John Kim, aka The Angry Therapist provides an article on trauma bonding   A BBC article on Stockholm syndrome   An  article in VeryWellMind.discusses features of covert narcissism   Sponsor:   Soul CBD Here is something just for you to sleep more deeply, reduce stress and heal anxiety.    Visit ashleystahl.com/soul and use the code YOUTURN at checkout for 15% off your order!

Perhaps the most poignant messages I receive are the ones from people who love someone who's becoming less and less “like' themselves – and are frightened about what's going on. This week I heard from a wife whose husband..."has always had an excuse for his extremely busy schedule. Over the past several months he has been acting very differently and has been more open about his unhappiness, and will admit to being depressed. He is also very confused. I came upon your podcast and book as I was searching... We started couples therapy... but he'll say things like" I don't think this is what's really wrong", or "She's focusing on why I'm smiling during the session, when really the problem is that I'm unhappy". So in today's SelfWork, sponsored by Athletic Greens, we'll focus on burnout and its relationship with perfectionism - and how both can lead to true classic depression. The listener email today is also someone asking about PHD – but this time, about her own potential for it as someone with generalized anxiety disorder (GAD). She'd worked through her pandemic anxiety with therapy and medications, but now, off medications, this listener is experiencing new feelings of anger and irritability. What could be happening? Important Links: Here's the link once again to my new interactive podcast on Fireside Chat! Click here!  Click Here for the fabulous offer from Athletic Greens - now AG1 - with bonus product with your subscription! Definition of burnout Slides of burnout symptoms The twelve stages of burnout SelfWork Podcast on Self-Compassion What is generalized anxiety disorder: The article by The Mayo Clinic 148 on conditional love You can hear more of many other topics by listening to my podcast, SelfWork with Dr. Margaret Rutherford. Subscribe to my website and receive one weekly newsletter including my weekly blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then clickhere and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available and you can order here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And here's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you!  

I want to eagerly and deeply thank HealthLine for naming The SelfWork Podcast the "Best Overall Podcast for Depression!" Wow!! Thank you to my team and to you, the listeners! Talk about not being able to "do it without you"? We truly can't! So my gratitude to each and every listener... Today I'm going to catch you up on what I'm continuing to learn about perfectionism. And  I'll share my new understanding of what makes PHD-perfectionism different from others. It's trauma-based or trauma-induced. I"ll also explain how the mind actually disposes (or seems to dispose) of the memory of an experience and the feelings it initially created – the processes of suppression and repression are fascinating to learn about! I wrote a post about my reaction to this week's voicemail in Psychology Today - you might want to read it yourself and its in the links section below.  I know that therapists are people too… but I want you – my SelfWork listeners – to be prepared for how to handle things if your therapist disappoints or hurts or even angers you! So in this episode, sponsored by BetterHelp, who's again here with a great offer for you, we'll talk about compartmentalization and trauma-based perfectionism. Important Links: BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has a special offer for you now! Psychology Today article by Dr. Margaret on when you have conflict with your therapist... You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, SelfWork with Dr. Margaret Rutherford. Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you'd like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression has been published and you can order here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You'll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you're giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I'll look forward to hearing from you!      

Subscribe for more: www.nobu.ai/podcastFollow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nobuappFollow us on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3NMIEgjblqmhwT6Uy3l0NmSubscribe to Dear Mind You Matter Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dear-mind-you-matter/id1573642046Leave us a review: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dear-mind-you-matter/id1573642046Interested in attending our Educational Events? https://bit.ly/eventsandeducation____Dr. Margaret Rutherford, a clinical psychologist, has practiced for twenty-eight years in Fayetteville, Arkansas. After winning an Arkansas Psychological Association award in 2009 for her community volunteering, she began blogging in 2012, and podcasting in 2016, extending the walls of her practice so that the general public could hear more about what therapy has to offer. Her writing can be found at https://DrMargaretRutherford.com, as well as Psychology Today, Psych Central, Psyche, the Gottman Blog and others. She hosts a highly popular podcast, The SelfWork Podcast, which is consistently ranked in the top 50 of US mental health podcasts, and a monthly FBLive presentation for The Mighty. Her new book Perfectly Hidden Depression (New Harbinger, 2019) focuses a much-needed light on the dangerous link between destructive perfectionism and depression.Website: https://drmargaretrutherford.com Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-selfwork-podcast/id1166015598 Book on Amazon: Author of Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free From the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression  Memorable Moments: 5:49 But there's a thing called destructive perfectionism, which is all about accomplishment, task, task orientation. You constantly have to meet the expectations of others around you. And I mean, all expectations. 6:13 That kind of perfectionism actually can be a camouflage for emotional pain that actually you may have suppressed that pain for so long that you're not even conscious of it anymore. 11:56 If you're aware that when perfectionism is present, when some of these, what I call the 10 traits of perfectly hidden depression, when those things are present, it's a syndrome of behaviors and beliefs that [hang] together.13:07 People with high functioning depression know they're depressed. They know they're depressed. They're in treatment, they're on medication. They make sure they get lots of exercise, so they don't get sad. They have seasonal affective disorder. They've learned how to cope. They're not so depressed that they can't get to work or take care of their kids. But this is different. 13:30 This is truly something that is...camouflage. You know, it's something you, you strap on every day and you really don't do it consciously. It's just who you have become. And the wonderful, incredible work that these people can do in therapy when they begin to let down that camouflage, it is amazing and it takes a lot of courage.  15:54 To convince someone that their thinness is really about an eating disorder is very difficult because that eating disorder has become their best friend. Perfectionism is very much the same way. 18:03 It is hard to admit that something you counted on as much as, you know, you being the person who's always the go-to, who always gets things done. And to begin to shift that thinking into something that's a little more human is hard. And so it takes a lot of honesty with yourself. 20:14 There could have been something that was in their family environment, in their cultural environment that caused them to adapt this way. And the very thing that helped them live through that and survive that is the thing that now has grown into this. And it's become their task master. 23:26 You really want to look at the absolutes in your life, the rules you're following: the musts, the shoulds, the have tos, the aughts, the nevers and begin to say, well, which one of these does still work for me, but which does not? 23:51 There's that work that's more cognitive behavioral and then there's the work of really going back and looking at your childhood, the family, the culture, the region, whatever, the country, and to see how the events of your life, both good and beneficial and painful and harmful, began to form patterns in your behavior. Going back and acknowledging with compassion.23:53 What is it that was hard for me and that I began covering up by just being highly achieving and caring about others and focusing on others, not on myself and counting my blessings to the point where it's toxic? You know, there's a toxic positivity that's out there. 25:54 These steps, they're hard because it really does turn some of what you believe upside down. But I have had people say to me, I, I feel so much more free than I did before. 26:00 To me, self-acceptance is really claiming that your strengths nor your vulnerabilities define you, that they both exist and they are facts about your life. And neither one of them define you. I think that's where people, in fact, I say in the book, self acceptance is the antidote to perfectly hidden depression. 27:17 During the pandemic people have used the strategy that has best worked for them [in the past] as their lives have gotten more and more ambiguous, more out of control, financial issues, obviously health issues, fear for your children, fear for your parents or grandparents, you know, our environment. I mean, it's just been chaos. Dear Mind, You Matter is brought to you by NOBU, a new mental health, and wellness app. To download NOBU, visit the app store or Google Play. This podcast is hosted by Allison Walsh  and Dr. Angela Phillips. It is produced by Allison Walsh, Ashley Tate, and Nicole LaNeve. For more information or if you're interested in being a guest on this podcast, please visit www.therecoveryvillage.com/dearmindyoumatter.

Dr. Margaret has been a psychologist in private practice for over twenty-five years. She began writing online in 2012 and was just narcissistic enough to believe that she might have something fresh or funny to say about she has learned. She has begun a podcast called The SelfWork Podcast with Dr. Margaret Rutherford. Her new book, entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism that Masks Your Depression, was launched in November of 2019. She has been researching and writing on this topic for five years, and she's passionate about the message that although depression can be heavily masked by perfectionism, its damage can still be devastating to someone who's trying so hard to smile their way through growing loneliness and despair. I've written for HuffPost, Psychology Today, The Mighty, Psych Central, The Gottman Blog, Psychologies, StigmaFighters, The Good Men Project. Please enjoy! Please visit https://nishantgarg.me/podcasts for more info. Follow Nishant: Instagram: instagram.com/garg_nishant https://www.facebook.com/NishantMindfulnessMatters/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nishant-garg-b7a20339/ https://twitter.com/nishantgar

Hi and glad you made it to the self-care zone! I begin this episode with a blog I wrote about vacations—guess I was inspired after taking my own last week. The facts are clear. Avoiding vacations can shorten your life, making you vulnerable to heart attacks. I share some data that's legitimately scary! My guest, Dr. Margaret Rutherford is an expert on something that plagued me for years… perfectionism. (Is every I dotted? It every T crossed?) Did you know there is something called destructive perfectionism? It's what separates the mere perfectionists from those who actively take themselves down, to their own detriment. If this rings a bell, listen and learn. Here are some of the things we chatted about: How she got into studying destructive perfectionism What is perfectly hidden depression The backgrounds that create this condition Constructive perfectionism v destructive perfectionism When is being extremely busy destructive The ten traits of hidden depression The treatment strategy for perfectionism and hidden depression May this serve as you reminder that self-care is ALWAYS a great idea… and you can go easy on yourself, friend. With love, RESOURCES Some Shocking News About Why You Really Need That Vacation Dr. Rutherford's book, Perfectly Hidden Depression The SelfWork Podcast MORE ABOUT DR. RUTHERFORD Dr. Margaret Rutherford is host of The SelfWork Podcast and has been a clinical psychologist for over 25 years, practicing in Fayetteville, Arkansas. She began blogging in 2012 in order to make therapy and mental health treatment understandable and approachable. Her podcast, And her first book, Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression was published in 2019 is currently being translated into seven different languages.

We have Dr. Margaret Rutherford, psychologist and author of Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism that Masks Your Depression, stopping for a fascinating discussion on upgrading our mind and taking control of the inner chatter that goes on in-between in our ears. Dr. Margaret has been in practice for over 25 years and is also the host of the SelfWork Podcast. In today's episode, you'll hear: Dr. Margaret’s origin story How Dr. Margaret landed on perfectly hidden depression Constructive vs. destructive perfectionism What is perfectly hidden depression Balancing your drive and ambition without sacrificing your mental health Some of the most common types of perfectionism About identity and the facades we carry Why gratitude sometimes isn’t what it seems About feeling like an impostor and navigating those feelings And much more Connect with Dr. Margaret: Website: https://drmargaretrutherford.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drmargaretrutherford/ Book: https://drmargaretrutherford.com/perfectlyhiddendepressionbook/ Podcast: https://drmargaretrutherford.com/selfwork/ Connect with Julian: Book a complimentary executive health optimization strategy session — https://theartoffitnessandlife.com/application/ Join the Superhuman Insider newsletter: https://theartoffitnessandlife.com/insider/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/thejulianhayes LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julianhayes

Divorce, by definition, is damaging. Taking apart a relationship impacts us far beyond the law. Today on the show, clinical psychologist Dr. Margaret Rutherford joins us to talk about how the stresses of divorce can sneak up on us in ways we might not expect. In addition to her practice, she's the author of Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism that Masks Your Depression, and host of The SelfWork Podcast. Margaret, welcome to the Toaster.About Dr. Margaret RutherfordDr. Margaret Rutherford, a clinical psychologist, has practiced for twenty-six years in Fayetteville, Arkansas. Earning the 2009 Arkansas Private Practitioner of the Year award for her volunteer work at a local free health clinic, she began blogging and podcasting in 2012 to destigmatize mental illness and educate the public about therapy and treatment. With her compassionate and common-sense style, her work can be found on her website, as well as HuffPost, Psych Central, Psychology Today, The Mighty, the Gottman Blog and others. She hosts a weekly podcast, The SelfWork Podcast with Dr. Margaret Rutherford. And her book, Perfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism that Masks Your Depression, is published by New Harbinger and available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble or your local bookstore.Links & NotesPerfectly Hidden Depression: How to Break Free from the Perfectionism That Masks Your Depression by Margaret RutherfordAbout Dr. Margaret RutherfordSubscribe to The SelfWork PodcastRecommended Reading: Coming Apart by Daphne Rose Kingma

Dr. Margaret Rutherford has been a psychologist with her own private therapy practice for over 25 years. She's the host of the popular Self Work Podcast and author of the book Perfectly Hidden Depression. Her work has been featured in publications including Huffington Post, Psychology Today and she has gained notoriety for her compassionate common-sense therapy for all the struggles and challenges that life throws our way. In today's powerful show we focus on the topic of Perfectly Hidden Depression. Dr. Rutherford explains what the syndrome is and why those afflicted don't find themselves within the criteria for traditional clinical depression. An affliction that can manifest itself in perfectionists, over achievers and extroverts Dr. Rutherford shares why some of these traits can actually be a mechanism to cover up deep hurt. She explains the common traits and characteristics associated with the syndrome. Why far too many fall through the cracks and don't know where to turn for help. Why this particular form of depression is so difficult to detect and can sadly become a matter of life or death. She describes what the first steps are in trying to heal and what you can do if you or a loved one may be suffering with the syndrome. Mentioned In the Show: Follow Dr. Margaret Rutherford: Website: https://drmargaretrutherford.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drmargaretrutherford/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DrMargaretRutherford/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/doctor_margaret Follow The Professional Athlete Podcast with Ken Gunter: Instagram: @the_professionalathlete Website: https://www.kengunter.com/ YouTube: Ken Gunter https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRhgjkoSiJXAbS_MIasvvzQ/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kengunterpodcast Produced By: Justin Gunter, Ken Gunter Music By: Justin Gunter, Ken Gunter