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Astronomy Daily - The Podcast: S03E236Welcome to Astronomy Daily, your trusted source for the latest in space and astronomy news. I'm your host, Anna, and today we have a captivating lineup of stories that span from technological breakthroughs on Earth to ancient cosmic mysteries.Highlights:- New Zealand's Starlink Milestone: Discover how New Zealand is making history as the first country to offer nationwide direct-to-smartphone messaging through SpaceX's Starlink satellite network, revolutionizing connectivity for remote areas.- The Legal Landscape of Space Mining: Delve into the evolving legal framework surrounding space mining, as NASA's Psyche mission highlights the potential of asteroid resources and international agreements shape the future of space resource extraction.- SpaceX's Starship Advances: Get the latest updates on SpaceX's Starship program, as the FAA approves its seventh flight with innovative modifications, paving the way for future suborbital missions and orbital ambitions.- Dormant Black Hole Discovery: Explore the intriguing discovery of a dormant supermassive black hole in the early universe, challenging our understanding of cosmic evolution and the growth of these colossal entities.- Revisiting the Moon's Age: Uncover new research suggesting our Moon might be over 100 million years older than previously thought, offering fresh insights into its formation and early history.For more cosmic updates, visit our website at astronomydaily.io. Sign up for our free Daily newsletter to stay informed on all things space. Join our community on social media by searching for #AstroDailyPod on Facebook, X, YouTube, YouTubeMusic, Tumblr, and TikTok. Share your thoughts and connect with fellow space enthusiasts.Thank you for tuning in. This is Anna signing off. Until next time, keep looking up and stay curious about the wonders of our universe.00:00 - Astronomy Daily brings you the latest fascinating developments in space and astronomy00:51 - New Zealand becomes first country to offer nationwide direct to smartphone messaging through SpaceX03:03 - Legal framework governing space mining is becoming increasingly important05:34 - The FAA has approved SpaceX's seventh flight of their starship vehicle07:35 - Astronomers using the James Webb Space Telescope have spotted an unusual sleeping giant09:44 - New research suggests our lunar neighbor could be 100 million years older than previously estimated11:38 - Anna: Thank you for listening to Astronomy Daily podcast✍️ Episode ReferencesSpaceX[https://www.spacex.com](https://www.spacex.com)Starlink[https://www.starlink.com](https://www.starlink.com)One NZ[https://www.one.nz](https://www.one.nz)T-Mobile[https://www.t-mobile.com](https://www.t-mobile.com)KDDI[https://www.kddi.com](https://www.kddi.com)Rogers[https://www.rogers.com](https://www.rogers.com)NASA[https://www.nasa.gov](https://www.nasa.gov)James Webb Space Telescope[https://www.jwst.nasa.gov](https://www.jwst.nasa.gov)Artemis Accords[https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis-accords/index.html](https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis-accords/index.html)Outer Space Treaty[https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/outerspacetreaty.html](https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/outerspacetreaty.html)Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/astronomy-daily-the-podcast--5648921/support.

Learn about the history, purpose and work of the Hispanic National Bar Association's Health & Life Sciences section, as shared by its co-chairs, Gelvina Rodriguez Stevenson, general counsel at the Wistar Institute and Mildred Segura, litigation partner at Reed Smith. The discussion will be moderated by Anna Lozoya from Sentara Health. ----more---- Transcript: Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.  Anna: Welcome back to Inclusivity Included. And today's episode is in partnership with the Hispanic National Bar Association. And today we'll be learning about the Health and Life Sciences section, along with co-chairs Gelvina Rodriguez-Stevenson and Mildred Segura. Gelvina Rodriguez is the General Counsel and Corporate Secretary at Wistar Institution, an international biomedical institute. Gelvina's career spans various sectors of the healthcare industry, including hospitals, academic medical centers, and pharmaceutical companies in government. Gelvina serves as the co-chair of the Hispanic National Bar Association's Health and Life Sciences Section and as a board member of the American Health Law Association. Mildred Segura is a litigation partner at Reed Smith LLP, a full-service global law firm. She is based in Los Angeles and is a member of Reed Smith's Life Sciences Health and Industry Group, specializing in complex products liability litigation, matters focused on medical device and pharmaceutical litigation in state and federal courts across the United States. Well, Mildred and Gelvina, excited to have you here so we can learn more about the Health and Life Sciences section of HNBA. Gelvina, can you give the audience a brief history of what was the inspiration to create the section and a brief overview of the history of the section?  Gelvina: Yeah, great, Anna. Thank you. Thank you for that that introduction for putting together this session. Very happy to talk about the health and life sciences section of the HNBA. So we started this section of the HNBA years ago. And, you know, really the idea came when I had started my first in-house job, and it just happened to be in the health sector. It was at an academic medical college. And, you know, I got there. I was like, oh, I don't know anything about health law. So let me, you know, look for mentors. And I've been fortunate through my career to always be able to find, you know, wonderful mentors through the HNBA and, you know, LaLSA, when in law school. And I started looking around to find other attorneys who were in this sector and really couldn't find anyone. I looked around, you know, my, the legal department where I was, you know, other organizations and just really couldn't find any mentors, role models to figure out how to navigate this area. So, you know, having always been active with the HNBA, you know, doing law school and having served as a regional president for the HNBA, I knew that there were very active sections within the HNBA in other areas, business law, labor and employment, employment, compliance. And I thought, gosh, it'd be great if there were a health law section where I could meet other Latino and Latina lawyers working in this space and kind of learn how it works. So I proposed to leadership at the HNBA the idea of forming this section. They thought it was a great idea, and it was formed. So then at that point, sections formed, and we had to build the community. So basically, me and our co-chair reached out to people we knew who were in you know, pharmaceutical device companies, hospitals, and invited them to join. And then also when you're part of the HNBA, you can check off what section you're interested in joining. So we had members join that way. And, you know, over the years, it's grown to be a really wonderful network of Latino and Latino lawyers across the country who are either working in healthcare and life sciences or interested in it. And it really has become, you know, that mentoring, you know group that what didn't exist years ago so really really excited to you know have that come to fruition have it become what it's become.  Anna: That sounds like really great work and it sounds like we needed that and you recognized that was something we needed so good work there and and for contributing that.  Gelvina: yeah and so wonderful that the HNBA was just so open and willing to you know jump on a new idea and move it forward so that's always wonderful.  Anna: Yeah yeah definitely HNBA is It's big about innovating. And as we grow as a legal community as well, expanding to meet the needs of the members. But I'm sure Mildred, as it sounds from Gelvina, that this is growing and growing. What do you find to be the most rewarding and most challenging aspects of co-chairing this vastly growing and expanding section here?  Mildred: That's a great question, Anna. And I've been co-chair, Gelvina invited me to serve in that position maybe three, four years ago now, Gelvina, maybe, right? And prior to that, there were other co-chairs. But I know Gelvina has been there since inception, as she just described. And I would say, you know, during my tenure these last couple of years, I would say the most rewarding aspect of co-chairing the section has been the opportunity to make a tangible impact on our community, which is health and life sciences, lawyers, policymakers, students, right? People who are interested in maybe getting into this space or maybe don't even have a clue what the space really is. And I've had the privilege of working with really, you know, brilliant people like Gelvina, like yourself, Anna, and others that are in our section and learning just how vast this practice area really is, right, of health and life sciences and how much it encompasses. Purposes and um and it's nice as Gelvina said you know it's a place of like-minded people doing you know they're in different practices but under the same umbrella and we're all our goal is the same right to advance health care and life sciences while ensuring that our voices are heard in these critical areas whether it's representing our clients you know in big law or in public interest or in the government and so wherever you are it's it's a nice sort of place to come together and be be able to showcase, you know, what's going on in your practice or in this area. And it's a really collaborative spirit as well, where people bring ideas. You know, if someone comes to us and say, hey, I have an idea for a webinar that I want to put on, focused on health and life sciences, it's great, right? And we're learning as we go, too, because I'm a litigator. And so there may be ideas and trends that I'm not even aware of. So it's a really great way to stay abreast of what's going on in this space as well. And Gelvina mentioned mentoring. And so we do have students that are members. version. I would say that's the other rewarding aspect of this is the ability to mentor young attorneys is incredibly fulfilling, right? And we put on a CLE panel presentation at one of our corporate council conferences for the HNBA, which was focused on careers in life sciences and healthcare, because a lot of students have no clue, you know, well, what does that mean? You know, what kind of careers do you have within that space? And there was a panel of litigators, government attorneys, policymakers. Gelvina moderated that panel. I was on it as well. And it was great to see the type of questions that we were getting from these up-and-coming, soon-to-be lawyers. And on the flip side, you asked me what's been the most challenging. I would say is balancing the diverse interests of our members within the section, right? Because like I said, that I'm a litigator, Gelvina's in-house, we have people in government, you know, all across the board in transactional spaces. And so it's really, you know, trying to cater to our members, ensuring that we are responsive to their needs and what they're interested in. And so we try and cover a broad range of topics to ensure that we provide value to our members, which requires, you know, careful planning, constant communication. But these challenges also present opportunities for growth and innovation. Like I said, as a litigator, I'm learning a lot about other aspects of health and life sciences beyond what my firm offers, obviously, which also does a little bit of everything within the life sciences space. So that's what I would say have been the most rewarding and challenging aspects of being co-chair of the section.  Anna: Oh, that's a lot. But it sounds like you and Gelvina have a good handle of that and having such a wide spectrum of individuals from law students to seasoned attorneys. And it sounds like your panel regarding careers in health and life sciences really try to hold in on the great plethora of opportunities for someone who's interested in our great section, our section that we love.  Mildred: That's exactly right.  Anna: From this section's name, health and life sciences, Gelvina, who do you think should join this section? And like, what are the benefits of joining HNBA's Health and Life Sciences section?  Gelvina: Yep. So in terms of who should join, I think, you know, Mildred touched on this a bit. And I think she went over sort of the diversity of this field, right, and the breadth of who is a healthcare lawyer, who is a life sciences lawyer. And it's really anyone who's like, you know, knee deep in that space. Like you're on a hospital attorney or someone at a pharmaceutical company in healthcare and life sciences, or it could be someone just sort of interested in maybe exploring that space. Or it could be someone who's a litigator and they happen to have a case that involves two healthcare-related companies. They want to, you know, learn more about this space and how it works or just, you know, interact with people working in this space. It could be, you know, anyone from like the knee-deep healthcare life sciences lawyers to people who are just tangentially involved. And, you know, again, the spectrum there is hospital attorneys, pharmaceutical device company attorneys and other legal professionals, folks working in health tech, AI, which is huge in health care, health insurance companies. PBMs, pharmacies, labs, you know, government, AG offices do lots of the, you know, credentialing and licensing for health care providers. It's, you know, we cover topics in reproductive health, public health. We have lots of members who are working in the antitrust space. There's lots of activity and healthcare entities related to antitrust. So, you know, as you can see, public policy, Mildred mentioned that. And really just in terms of, you know, you asked about the benefits of joining. So, again, for the folks who are knee deep, like we get to, you know, get on these calls and say, you know, this is this topic that we're starting to see, you know, more of in our space. What are you all seeing? And just kind of share ideas and approaches. And, you know, for those who are not knee deep learning about the area, you know, and for students, you know, Mildred mentioned we have lots of students who join. And I think historically, healthcare and life sciences hasn't been like one of those key areas that you focus on in law school. It's not like, you know, securities, which is kind of all over. And so it's a new area. So we can provide, you know, mentoring and exposure to different career opportunities in this space, which is very exciting and growing. And we also coordinate with other organizations like the American Health Law Association and build liaisons there and share speaking opportunities that we're aware of that folks may want to be interested in, job opportunities. So I could go on and on forever about all the benefits of joining this section, but I'll pause there.  Anna: Thank you. I can definitely say I have benefited both from being a section member, from Gelvina's mentorship, which is a benefit. Mildred mentioned that it's having had the opportunity to present at the American Health Lawyers Association and also learning. I know we last year had someone present on privacy and AI and how that affects our our industry. And that was really great and insightful. I was like driving, but trying to take notes. And I'm like, I need to pay attention. And so it was just really enthralled and learned a lot. And I was able to take that back into my actual practice and still have. And it's been very impactful. So definitely a great benefit. And so really, really appreciative of the section doing that. And I have a question for both of you. Can each of you share how the section has influenced your practice and your personal life?  Gelvina: Yeah. You know, I think, like you said, just being able to meet other attorneys in this space like you and Mildred and, you know, work together. Yeah. And just finding that sense of community and others who've, you know, maybe are like in a field that I've been interested in or, and it's really just invigorating, right? Once you start looking for other Latino and Latina lawyers working in this space, we find each other and it's very inspiring. So, for example, we did a podcast series through the section where we interviewed Latino and Latina leaders in health care and life sciences. We, you know, for example, Lisa Pino, who was the director of the Office for Civil Rights within HHS, which is the office that enforces HIPAA, a really important position. So just being able to, you know, connect with her and, you know, expose our membership to people like her and really exciting positions like that. And, you know, she provided mentorship and advice on that call. Like, how do you get to these positions if you're interested? How do you navigate these positions as a Latina? So, you know, just being able to meet people and interact with people in this space has just been inspiring and made me feel very optimistic and supported in my career. So that's really been, you know, that's from a professional and personal, again, from a personal perspective, meeting other professionals who are working in similar space. You have so much in common and you can share so much. You become, you know, colleagues and friends, which is just wonderful. Yeah.  Mildred: Yeah, and I would echo a lot of what Gelvina just said in terms of just on a, in my practice alone, right, having immersed myself into the section, taken on the role of co-chair, having to learn sort of, okay, who's our membership? What are they interested in? But more than that really was the friendships that I've been able to build. Obviously, your network expands, right, which is always great. And just deepening my own understanding of health and life sciences. Like I said, I come from the litigation side of life sciences. So to be able to speak with you, Anna, about risk management issues that impact hospitals, for instance, right? And sort of those folks that are in that space is important because it helps inform perhaps how I may be counseling my clients on my end when it comes to the litigation side. So there's this cross-pollination. I think that's very beneficial and is one of the things that has greatly influenced my practice by virtue of serving as co-chair. And on a personal level, I would say that it's just reinforced my commitment to advocating for our community. It's nice, yes, we have a place of like-minded folks who can come together, share ideas, trends, and practices that cut across the health and life sciences space, but also what we do for the larger community. And one thing that HNBA offers is something called Advocacy Day, which is a day where HNBA members, section members can go to Congress, and we have various meetings with congressional representatives on issues of importance to our section. So as a health and life sciences section, we, you know, one issue that came to mind was on mental health, which is a key issue for the Latino community and something that can be, you know, has a lot of, could be taboo and a lot of, you know, people don't want to come forward and say, you know, I'm suffering from mental health and get the care that they need. So to me, that was the first time I participated in that advocacy date program. So to be able and have these meetings with, you know, the congressmen and congresswomen and be able to talk about these issues was really a different experience for me that I had not engaged in before. So I would say, you know, that experiences like that is something that our section offers and that I would recommend to anyone.  Gelvina: Yeah. And just to pick up on that point that Mildred just made, we also work very closely with the leadership of the health and life sciences section of the Asian American Bar Association, the South Asian NAPABA, SABA, and the NBA. And especially during the pandemic, we really were coordinating on health equity issues. And we did some publications for the HNBA on health equity to elevate being in a position where we could elevate those important topics. And as lawyers, a resource on how those issues impact our community from a legal perspective has been key. And, you know, to Mildred's point, being able to bring these important topics up at Advocacy Day has been a really important role for this committee.  Anna: Yeah, I think this section is really good at doing that, bringing forward not only our issues and what we need as section members, but also for the community at large. And not just professionally, but also just, you know, the overall Latino, Latina, Hispanic community across the U.S. I know we also have written, Gelvina and I and a few of us others, we wrote an article on how we could give back and give our skill sets since we have such a variety of skills across different spectrums of areas, whether it's helping with wills or sitting on a board. I know Gelvina sits on several boards and giving back in different ways to impact to ensure health care equity within our community and not just out in the sense of professional legal realm. Mildred, can you share any exciting initiatives that the section currently has and any that they might have going on in the future with our listeners?  Mildred: Sure. Good question. So, you know, right now our section is focused on a few key initiatives. One of them is creating more educational resources and webinars that address emerging issues in health and life sciences, particularly those affecting the Hispanic community, obviously, but also other trends that we're seeing that are of interest to our members. And we're also strengthening our mentorship program, aiming to provide guidance and support to the next generation of legal professionals in the field. This year, which kicked off in the fall of 2023, we kicked it off with a social media campaign, right? Because we know the younger generation is on Instagram and what used to be Twitter, so now X. And so HNBA has been really active in engaging with the social media platforms and getting the word out about sections like ours that are offered through the HMBA. So we had a social media campaign that featured myself, Gelvina, and you were part of that as well as our other vice chairs of the section to really get the word out about who we are, what's our mission, what's our purpose, right? We're here to serve you and to get more membership to join the section. So that's been one initiative in terms of just getting the word out. Other initiatives that we've taken on this year have been highlighting select members of our section on topics of interest. And we touched on this already earlier today. You know, we've had people from who are at the top pharma companies present on data privacy issues. We've had people within the medical device industry come and speak to us about what they're seeing relative to AI and life sciences and some of the implications coming out of that, both on the regulatory side and the litigation side, for instance. Instance, we had presentations on the impact of the recent FTC ruling on non-compete agreements, which now we have a federal court, right, who's come out and said, okay, you know, you don't have the authority to do that. So a lot of activity that's relevant to our section across the board, right, no matter whether you're in-house or at a firm or perhaps in government. And another initiative we had was focused on the Supreme Court's decision related to DOBS and reproductive health. And we put on a CLE panel at one of our corporate council conferences for the HNBA focused on sort of sexual and reproductive health post-DOBS, which was well attended and extremely timely just because of all the issues, you know, no matter what side you are on that issue, you know, it's always helpful to bring that to our community and have people, you know, have a discussion and a debate around those issues. More recently, coming up for our annual convention in September, taking place in D.C., we will have a panel focused on GLP-1 pharmaceuticals. It's called GLP-What? Exploring the Weighty Legal Issues of Pharma's Blockbuster Weight Loss Drug, which will feature our very own Anna, who's with us today, along with some other members of our section and the IP section of the HNBA. So we're looking forward to that. And we're busy working on some additional webinars coming up later this year, including one, like I said, on non-compete agreements, as well as because we are in election season, sort of the impact of the elections on health and life sciences. We know there's a lot of impact there and we want to be able to bring that to our members as well. And just getting creative, thinking outside the box. You know, this idea of this podcast, Anna, was yours. I thought, you know, it's a great idea. So initiatives like that, trying to get a little bit more creative in how we can, again, bring our section and the most value to our members as much as we can. And lastly, as Gelvina touched on, we're collaborating with other bar and healthcare-related organizations, such as the American Health Law Association, which you both touched on. And, yeah, so we're trying to do, you know, as much as we can, again, because, you know, we don't get paid for this. We do it because we like it, we want to. And it's, as Gelvina said, very inspiring and invigorating to be doing this work. So really lucky to have the opportunity to do it.  Anna: That's a lot of great work, a lot of great initiatives, and I look forward to that. I hope our listeners join us so you can learn. Even if you don't practice in this area, a lot of that expands and cross-pollinates and touches different aspects of our daily life. Gelvina, so where can people that are interested in learning more about this section and wanting to just find out when is the next podcast or when is the next webinar, where can they find us?  Gelvina: Yep, there's a number of ways. Number one, you can go on HNBA, Hispanic National Bar Association.com. And there's a drop down link to sections and you'll find the health section, health and life sciences section there. You can join that way. Also, as a member, you can join through your membership portal, but also you can join through the section portal. We have a LinkedIn page. It's HNBA Health and Life Sciences. So you can find us on LinkedIn and join that way. And we send out information about our upcoming events and activities via the LinkedIn page. On the LinkedIn page, there's also email addresses where you could email Mildred or me and we'll get you on the listserv. So we send out emails and calendar invites for the meetings. We usually have, as Mildred mentioned, a meeting at the annual conferences for the HNBA. There's two annual conferences a year, one in September and one in March. So we usually have an in-person meeting there. And then we have one to two virtual meetings throughout the year where folks can join. And like Mildred said, we have people present on topics of interest. But also, we start each of those meetings with everyone introducing themselves and where they work or what their interest is. And that's a really great way to get to know the community. So I would encourage folks to get on the LinkedIn page, join via the HNBA.com website, email us if you have any questions and, you know, come attend one of our meetings or activities.  Anna: Great. Thank you for sharing that. I want to thank everyone for joining us today here on Inclusivity Included in our partnership today with the Hispanic National Bar Association Health and Life Sciences section. Thank you, Gelvina and Mildred, taking time out of your busy days as co-chairs and sharing with us your experiences, your contributions, and as well as all the exciting new initiatives and planning that the section has. Please join us next time on our next episode on Inclusivity Included.  Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.  Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to of particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  All rights reserved.  Transcript is auto-generated.

**Hosts:** Anna and the Astronomy Daily Team---**Episode Summary:**Join Anna and the Astronomy Daily Team for a cosmic voyage that takes us from the fiery farewell of a legendary rocket to the tantalizing prospect of extraterrestrial life on twin-sunned worlds. In today's episode, we celebrate the final mission of ULA's Delta IV Heavy, ponder the habitable potential of Tatooine-like planets, bid a fond farewell to NASA's DC-8 flying laboratory, and grapple with the implications of a delayed Russian rocket launch. We also narrow down the search for advanced alien civilizations to seven intriguing exoplanets. Fasten your seatbelts for a stellar journey that brings the wonders of space exploration and the mysteries of the cosmos into focus.---**Featured Topics:**1. **Delta IV Heavy's Grand Exit:** Witness the last launch of the Delta IV Heavy rocket, a beacon of human ingenuity, as it makes its thunderous ascent, marking the end of an era and the beginning of ULA's Vulcan ambitions.2. **Life in Binary Star Systems:** Delve into the groundbreaking study that hints at the existence of habitable planets orbiting binary stars, challenging our notions of life in the universe.3. **NASA's DC-8 Final Mission:** Pay tribute to NASA's DC-8, the world's largest flying laboratory, as it completes its final mission and begins a new chapter in educating future technicians.4. **Angara A-5 Launch Delay:** Explore the significance of the Angara A-5 launch delay at Russia's Vostochny Cosmodrome and what it means for the future of the country's space endeavors.5. **The Search for Alien Societies:** Discover how a new study narrows the search for advanced civilizations to seven exoplanets, potentially bringing us closer to answering the age-old question of whether we are alone in the universe.---**Additional Information:**For an endless journey through the stars, be sure to visit astronomydaily.io for a wealth of episodes, news, and a community of space enthusiasts. Engage with us on @astrodailypod for the latest cosmic updates and join the conversation. Sign up for our free newsletter to keep the universe at your fingertips.---**Closing Remarks:**As we gaze upon the night sky, closing another chapter of Astronomy Daily, we invite you to ponder the infinite possibilities that lie beyond our earthly realm. Remember, the universe is vast, and each discovery is but a step closer to unraveling its secrets. This is Anna, your guide through the cosmos, bidding you farewell until our next stellar encounter. Keep dreaming, keep exploring, and let the stars be your guide.---**Host Sign-off:** Anna: "Thank you for joining us on this interstellar sojourn. Until we cross paths again in the boundless night sky, this is Anna, signing off. Keep your curiosity alight and your eyes to the heavens. Farewell, fellow stargazers!"For more visit www.astronomydaily.ioBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/astronomy-daily-the-podcast--5648921/support.---

**Hosts:** Anna and the Astronomy Daily Team---**Episode Summary:**Embark on a cosmic odyssey with Anna and the Astronomy Daily Team as we delve into the latest astronomical phenomena and space exploration marvels. Today's episode is a celestial tapestry woven with the enchantment of a total solar eclipse, Russia's soaring space ambitions with the Angara A-5, and the intriguing partnership between China and Thailand on lunar exploration. We'll also grapple with the enigmatic 'Flying Fox' plasma cloud and unravel the mysteries of the moon's uneven geology. So tune in, and let your imagination soar across the universe as we uncover the stories that connect us to the cosmos and each other.---**Featured Topics:**1. **Eclipse Over North America:** Relive the awe of the total solar eclipse that united people in wonder, as darkness swept across the continent and the sun's corona captivated millions.2. **Russia's Angara A-5 Launch:** Witness the power of Russia's latest space endeavor as the Angara A-5 rocket prepares for a historic lift-off, signaling a new era in the nation's cosmic pursuits.3. **China-Thailand Lunar Collaboration:** Discover the groundbreaking partnership that propels China and Thailand into the lunar limelight, contributing to the international lunar research station with innovative space weather technology.4. **The Mystery of the 'Flying Fox':** Dive into the perplexing discovery of a magnetized plasma cloud that challenges our understanding of astrophysical phenomena and the tools we use to observe them.5. **The Moon's Asymmetrical Secrets:** Explore the latest theories that explain the moon's lopsided geology, revealing a dramatic past of magma oceans and titanic impacts that shaped our celestial neighbor.---**Additional Information:**For a continuous exploration of the cosmos, visit astronomydaily.io to access our extensive episode archive and immerse yourself in the beauty and complexity of space science. Engage with fellow enthusiasts and the Astronomy Daily Team by following @astrodailypod on X. Together, we'll keep the cosmic conversation alive and the passion for the stars burning bright.---**Closing Remarks:**As we conclude this interstellar journey for today, we thank you for joining us in celebrating the boundless beauty and intrigue of the universe. Keep your eyes on the skies and your heart open to the endless possibilities that lie within the stars. This is Anna, bidding you farewell, but not goodbye, on the Astronomy Daily podcast.---**Host Sign-off:** Anna: "Thank you for sharing this celestial adventure with us. Until we meet again in the vast expanse of space, this is Anna, signing off. Keep dreaming, keep discovering, and always reach for the stars!

**Hosts:** Anna and the Astronomy Daily Team---**Episode Summary:**Embark on a cosmic expedition with Anna and the Astronomy Daily Team as we navigate through the latest astronomical discoveries and the challenges of space exploration. In this episode, we dive into the icy mysteries of Jupiter's moon Europa, unearth the secrets of ancient Martian rivers, and spotlight NASA's lunar ambitions. We also confront the growing concern of space debris and the thrilling possibility of detecting volcanic activity on distant exoplanets. Join us for a captivating journey that brings the wonders of the universe into sharper focus and closer to our earthly realm.---**Featured Topics:**1. **Europa Clipper's Icy Odyssey:** Gear up for an inside look at NASA's Europa Clipper as it prepares for a groundbreaking journey to Jupiter's moon, seeking signs of life beneath its frozen crust.2. **Martian Rivers Revisited:** Traverse the dry riverbeds of Mars with NASA's Curiosity rover, piecing together the planet's watery past and the enigmatic history etched into its landscape.3. **Lunar Rovers Ready to Roll:** Discover how the Artemis program's lunar terrain vehicles will redefine moon exploration, offering astronauts unprecedented freedom and autonomy on the lunar surface.4. **The Fallout of Space Debris:** Reflect on the tangible impact of space debris as we examine a close call in Florida, highlighting the urgency for innovative solutions to clean up our orbital backyard.5. **Volcanoes in the Stars:** Peer into the potential of detecting volcanic activity on exoplanets, a pursuit that could reshape our understanding of geological processes in alien worlds.---**Additional Information:**For those yearning for more celestial content, navigate to astronomydaily.io to explore in-depth articles, revisit past episodes, and subscribe to our newsletter for your daily dose of the cosmos. Engage with our stargazing community by following @astrodailypod on X and join the conversation that spans the universe.---**Closing Remarks:**As we conclude today's stellar exploration, we thank you for your companionship on this interstellar voyage. The cosmos is vast and ever-evolving, and together, we'll continue to uncover its marvels. Until our next celestial encounter, this is Anna, wishing you clear skies and a heart full of wonder. Keep looking up, for the universe beckons.---**Host Sign-off:** Anna: "Thank you for tuning into Astronomy Daily. Until we traverse the stars together again, this is Anna, signing off. Dream big, fellow stargazers!For more visit www.astronomydaily.io---

**Hosts:** Anna and the Astronomy Daily Team---**Episode Summary:**Blast off with Anna and the Astronomy Daily Team in this captivating episode, where the cosmos unveils its latest marvels and milestones. Today, we celebrate SpaceX's 260th reflight of an orbital class rocket, signaling a sustainable future in space travel. We'll also explore an audacious partnership between Taobao and Chinese rocket company Space Epoch, aiming to revolutionize global deliveries with astonishing speed. Our cosmic journey then takes us to NASA's open data initiative as they gear up for the 2024 total solar eclipse, inviting public participation in a rare celestial event. We'll visit the lunar surface with Japan's resilient moon probe SLIM, which has awakened from the darkness to continue its scientific mission. Lastly, we introduce the Helioviewer Project's Eclipse Watch, an innovative tool that brings the sun's corona to our screens daily. Strap in for an episode that traverses the boundaries of space innovation and stargazing splendor.---**Featured Topics:**1. **SpaceX's Reusable Rocket Milestone:** Join us in applauding SpaceX's landmark achievement in rocket reusability and the implications for the future of space exploration.2. **Taobao & Space Epoch's Cosmic Commerce:** Discover how e-commerce and aerospace are merging to potentially deliver your packages via rocket, redefining global logistics.3. **NASA's Eclipse of Open Data:** Learn about NASA's commitment to open science and how you can be a part of the 2024 total solar eclipse's scientific endeavors.4. **Japan's Moon Probe Triumph:** Hear the inspiring tale of Japan's moon probe SLIM, which has overcome the harsh lunar environment to continue its quest for knowledge.5. **Daily Dose of Solar Majesty:** Experience the grandeur of the sun's corona every day with the Helioviewer Project's Eclipse Watch, building excitement for the upcoming solar eclipse.---**Additional Information:**To delve deeper into the universe's secrets, journey over to astronomydaily.io, where you can access a wealth of resources, listen to past episodes, and keep abreast of the latest astronomical news. For a daily dispatch from the stars, subscribe to our newsletter, and join the celestial conversation by following @astrodailypod on X. Your adventure through the cosmos continues with us.---**Closing Remarks:**As we conclude this stellar episode, we thank you for joining us on this interstellar voyage. The cosmos is vast and filled with wonders, and we're here to help you navigate its expanse. Until our next cosmic encounter, this is Anna, wishing you clear skies and boundless curiosity. Keep gazing upward, for the universe is yours to discover.---**Host Sign-off:** Anna: "Thank you for tuning into Astronomy Daily. Until we traverse the stars together again, this is Anna, signing off. Dream big, fellow stargazers!This episode of Astronomy Daily is brought to you with the support of NordPass...the password manager. Remove all that angst from your life for very little (and we mean little!) money with the special deal for our listeners. Check the details out at www.bitesz.com/nordpass(00:00) Astronomy Daily podcast series three, episode 19 comes out today(01:51) SpaceX's Falcon 9 rocket successfully launched 23 satellites into low Earth orbit(03:32) Space epic announces partnership with Alibaba to develop reusable rockets for ecommerce(05:46) NASA is embracing open data principles ahead of the 2024 total solar eclipse #space #astronomy #news #podcast #astronomydaily #nasa #spacex Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/astronomy-daily-the-podcast--5648921/support.

**Hosts:** Anna and the Astronomy Daily Team---**Episode Summary:**Join Anna and the Astronomy Daily Team for another enlightening voyage into the cosmos, where today's episode unfurls a tapestry of celestial triumphs and enigmas. We celebrate the European Space Agency's masterful recovery of the Euclid telescope's sight from an icy veil, marvel at Mars' new trojan asteroid, and ponder the birth of blue supergiant stars. We'll also dive beneath the icy crust of Saturn's moon Enceladus, as ESA sets its sights on this intriguing world, and applaud the groundbreaking return of an antiviral drug from space, heralding a new chapter in pharmaceuticals. So, strap in for a journey that promises to expand the frontiers of our understanding and bring the universe's secrets within our grasp.---**Featured Topics:**1. **Euclid's Icy Triumph:** Discover how ESA's remote wizardry melted away ice from Euclid's mirrors, sharpening our gaze into the universe's dark corners.2. **Mars' Ephemeral Companion:** Meet Mars' new trojan asteroid, 2023 FW14, and learn about its unique journey and composition that's stirring the pot of solar system dynamics.3. **Blue Supergiants' Secret:** Delve into the latest research suggesting the colossal blue supergiants may be born from the cosmic dance and merger of binary stars.4. **Voyage to Enceladus:** Explore ESA's ambitious plans to probe Saturn's moon Enceladus, seeking signs of life in its subsurface ocean.5. **Pharmaceuticals from Orbit:** Witness how Varda Space Industry's mission is pioneering drug production in microgravity, promising a future of more effective medicines.---**Additional Information:**For those hungry for more cosmic content, visit astronomydaily.io to delve deeper into these topics and subscribe to our newsletter for a daily dose of the universe. Join our community of space enthusiasts to discuss the latest astronomical phenomena and share your passion for the stars.---**Closing Remarks:**As we conclude today's interstellar journey, we remain humbled by the vastness and the mysteries of the cosmos. Keep journeying with us, as each episode brings us closer to unraveling the universe's deepest secrets. Until our paths cross again, this is Anna, wishing you clear nights and awe-inspiring sights. Keep looking up!---**Host Sign-off:** Anna: "Thank you for joining us on this cosmic adventure. Until next time, remember—the universe is vast, and every star has a story. Anna signing off. Goodbye, space explorers!(00:00) Welcome to Astronomy Daily, the podcast your daily guide to the cosmos(00:41) The Euclid Space Telescope overcame icy coating on its mirrors(02:42) A new Trojan asteroid has joined the Mars cohort of trojan companions(05:00) Blue supergiants have challenged our understanding of stellar evolution(07:02) European Space Agency is proposing a mission to Saturn's EnceladusBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/astronomy-daily-the-podcast--5648921/support.

Anna Belak, Director of the Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss the newest benchmark for responding to security threats, 5/5/5. Anna describes why it was necessary to set a new benchmark for responding to security threats in a timely manner, and how the Sysdig team did research to determine the best practices for detecting, correlating, and responding to potential attacks. Corey and Anna discuss the importance of focusing on improving your own benchmarks towards a goal, as well as how prevention and threat detection are both essential parts of a solid security program. About AnnaAnna has nearly ten years of experience researching and advising organizations on cloud adoption with a focus on security best practices. As a Gartner Analyst, Anna spent six years helping more than 500 enterprises with vulnerability management, security monitoring, and DevSecOps initiatives. Anna's research and talks have been used to transform organizations' IT strategies and her research agenda helped to shape markets. Anna is the Director of Thought Leadership at Sysdig, using her deep understanding of the security industry to help IT professionals succeed in their cloud-native journey. Anna holds a PhD in Materials Engineering from the University of Michigan, where she developed computational methods to study solar cells and rechargeable batteries.Links Referenced: Sysdig: https://sysdig.com/ Sysdig 5/5/5 Benchmark: https://sysdig.com/555 TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I am joined again—for another time this year—on this promoted guest episode brought to us by our friends at Sysdig, returning is Anna Belak, who is their director of the Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig. Anna, welcome back. It's been a hot second.Anna: Thank you, Corey. It's always fun to join you here.Corey: Last time we were here, we were talking about your report that you folks had come out with, the, “Cybersecurity Threat Landscape for 2022.” And when I saw you were doing another one of these to talk about something, I was briefly terrified. “Oh, wow, please tell me we haven't gone another year and the cybersecurity threat landscape is moving that quickly.” And it sort of is, sort of isn't. You're here today to talk about something different, but it also—to my understanding—distills down to just how quickly that landscape is moving. What have you got for us today?Anna: Exactly. For those of you who remember that episode, one of the key findings in the Threat Report for 2023 was that the average length of an attack in the cloud is ten minutes. To be clear, that is from when you are found by an adversary to when they have caused damage to your system. And that is really fast. Like, we talked about how that relates to on-prem attacks or other sort of averages from other organizations reporting how long it takes to attack people.And so, we went from weeks or days to minutes, potentially seconds. And so, what we've done is we looked at all that data, and then we went and talked to our amazing customers and our many friends at analyst firms and so on, to kind of get a sense for if this is real, like, if everyone is seeing this or if we're just seeing this. Because I'm always like, “Oh, God. Like, is this real? Is it just me?”And as it turns out, everyone's not only—I mean, not necessarily everyone's seeing it, right? Like, there's not really been proof until this year, I would say because there's a few reports that came out this year, but lots of people sort of anticipated this. And so, when we went to our customers, and we asked for their SLAs, for example, they were like, “Oh, yeah, my SLA for a [PCRE 00:02:27] cloud is like 10, 15 minutes.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” So, what we set out to do is actually set a benchmark, essentially, to see how well are you doing. Like, are you equipped with your cloud security program to respond to the kind of attack that a cloud security attacker is going to—sorry, an anti-cloud security—I guess—attacker is going to perpetrate against you.And so, the benchmark is—drumroll—5/5/5. You have five seconds to detect a signal that is relevant to potentially some attack in the cloud—hopefully, more than one such signal—you have five minutes to correlate all such relevant signals to each other so that you have a high fidelity detection of this activity, and then you have five more minutes to initiate an incident response process to hopefully shut this down, or at least interrupt the kill chain before your environments experience any substantial damage.Corey: To be clear, that is from a T0, a starting point, the stopwatch begins, the clock starts when the event happens, not when an event shows up in your logs, not once someone declares an incident. From J. Random Hackerman, effectively, we're pressing the button and getting the response from your API.Anna: That's right because the attackers don't really care how long it takes you to ship logs to wherever you're mailing them to. And that's why it is such a short timeframe because we're talking about, they got in, you saw something hopefully—and it may take time, right? Like, some of the—which we'll describe a little later, some of the activities that they perform in the early stages of the attack are not necessarily detectable as malicious right away, which is why your correlation has to occur, kind of, in real time. Like, things happen, and you're immediately adding them, sort of like, to increase the risk of this detection, right, to say, “Hey, this is actually something,” as opposed to, you know, three weeks later, I'm parsing some logs and being like, “Oh, wow. Well, that's not good.” [laugh].Corey: The number five seemed familiar to me in this context, so I did a quick check, and sure enough, allow me to quote from chapter and verse from the CloudTrail documentation over an AWS-land. “CloudTrail typically delivers logs within an average of about five minutes of an API call. This time is not guaranteed.” So effectively, if you're waiting for anything that's CloudTrail-driven to tell you that you have a problem, it is almost certainly too late by the time that pops up, no matter what that notification vector is.Anna: That is, unfortunately or fortunately, true. I mean, it's kind of a fact of life. I guess there is a little bit of a veiled [unintelligible 00:04:43] at our cloud provider friends because, really, they have to do better ultimately. But the flip side to that argument is CloudTrail—or your cloud log source of choice—cannot be your only source of data for detecting security events, right? So, if you are operating purely on the basis of, “Hey, I have information in CloudTrail; that is my security information,” you are going to have a bad time, not just because it's not fast enough, but also because there's not enough data in there, right? Which is why part of the first, kind of, benchmark component is that you must have multiple data sources for the signals, and they—ideally—all will be delivered to you within five seconds of an event occurring or a signal being generated.Corey: And give me some more information on that because I have my own alerter, specifically, it's a ClickOps detector. Whenever someone in one of my accounts does something in the console, that has a write aspect to it rather than just a read component—which again, look at what you want in the console, that's fine—if you're changing things that is not being managed by code, I want to know that it's happening. It's not necessarily bad, but I want to at least have visibility into it. And that spits out the principal, the IP address it emits from, and the rest. I haven't had a whole lot where I need to correlate those between different areas. Talk to me more about the triage step.Anna: Yeah, so I believe that the correlation step is the hardest, actually.Corey: Correlation step. My apologies.Anna: Triage is fine. It's [crosstalk 00:06:06]—Corey: Triage, correlations, the words we use matter on these things.Anna: Dude, we argued about the words on this for so long, you could even imagine. Yeah, triage, correlation, detection, you name it, we are looking at multiple pieces of data, we're going to connect them to each other meaningfully, and that is going to provide us with some insight about the fact that a bad thing is happening, and we should respond to it. Perhaps automatically respond to it, but we'll get to that. So, a correlation, okay. The first thing is, like I said, you must have more than one data source because otherwise, I mean, you could correlate information from one data source; you actually should do that, but you are going to get richer information if you can correlate multiple data sources, and if you can access, for example, like through an API, some sort of enrichment for that information.Like, I'll give you an example. For SCARLETEEL, which is an attack we describe in the thread report, and we actually described before, this is—we're, like—on SCARLETEEL, I think, version three now because there's so much—this particular certain actor is very active [laugh].Corey: And they have a better versioning scheme than most companies I've spoken to, but that's neither here nor there.Anna: [laugh]. Right? So, one of the interesting things about SCARLETEEL is you could eventually detect that it had happened if you only had access to CloudTrail, but you wouldn't have the full picture ever. In our case, because we are a company that relies heavily on system calls and machine learning detections, we [are able to 00:07:19] connect the system call events to the CloudTrail events, and between those two data sources, we're able to figure out that there's something more profound going on than just what you see in the logs. And I'll actually tell you, which, for example, things are being detected.So, in SCARLETEEL, one thing that happens is there's a crypto miner. And a crypto miner is one of these events where you're, like, “Oh, this is obviously malicious,” because as we wrote, I think, two years ago, it costs $53 to mine $1 of Bitcoin in AWS, so it is very stupid for you to be mining Bitcoin in AWS, unless somebody else is—Corey: In your own accounts.Anna: —paying the cloud bill. Yeah, yeah [laugh] in someone else's account, absolutely. Yeah. So, if you are a sysadmin or a security engineer, and you find a crypto miner, you're like, “Obviously, just shut that down.” Great. What often happens is people see them, and they think, “Oh, this is a commodity attack,” like, people are just throwing crypto miners whatever, I shut it down, and I'm done.But in the case of this attack, it was actually a red herring. So, they deployed the miner to see if they could. They could, then they determined—presumably; this is me speculating—that, oh, these people don't have very good security because they let random idiots run crypto miners in their account in AWS, so they probed further. And when they probed further, what they did was some reconnaissance. So, they type in commands, listing, you know, like, list accounts or whatever. They try to list all the things they can list that are available in this account, and then they reach out to an EC2 metadata service to kind of like, see what they can do, right?And so, each of these events, like, each of the things that they do, like, reaching out to a EC2 metadata service, assuming a role, doing a recon, even lateral movement is, like, by itself, not necessarily a scary, big red flag malicious thing because there are lots of, sort of, legitimate reasons for someone to perform those actions, right? Like, reconnaissance, for one example, is you're, like, looking around the environment to see what's up, right? So, you're doing things, like, listing things, [unintelligible 00:09:03] things, whatever. But a lot of the graphical interfaces of security tools also perform those actions to show you what's, you know, there, so it looks like reconnaissance when your tool is just, like, listing all the stuff that's available to you to show it to you in the interface, right? So anyway, the point is, when you see them independently, these events are not scary. They're like, “Oh, this is useful information.”When you see them in rapid succession, right, or when you see them alongside a crypto miner, then your tooling and/or your process and/or your human being who's looking at this should be like, “Oh, wait a minute. Like, just the enumeration of things is not a big deal. The enumeration of things after I saw a miner, and you try and talk to the metadata service, suddenly I'm concerned.” And so, the point is, how can you connect those dots as quickly as possible and as automatically as possible, so a human being doesn't have to look at, like, every single event because there's an infinite number of them.Corey: I guess the challenge I've got is that in some cases, you're never going to be able to catch up with this. Because if it's an AWS call to one of the APIs that they manage for you, they explicitly state there's no guarantee of getting information on this until the show's all over, more or less. So, how is there… like, how is there hope?Anna: [laugh]. I mean, there's always a forensic analysis, I guess [laugh] for all the things that you've failed to respond to.Corey: Basically we're doing an after-action thing because humans aren't going to react that fast. We're just assuming it happened; we should know about it as soon as possible. On some level, just because something is too late doesn't necessarily mean there's not value added to it. But just trying to turn this into something other than a, “Yeah, they can move faster than you, and you will always lose. The end. Have a nice night.” Like, that tends not to be the best narrative vehicle for these things. You know, if you're trying to inspire people to change.Anna: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I think one clear point of hope here is that sometimes you can be fast enough, right? And a lot of this—I mean, first of all, you're probably not going to—sorry, cloud providers—you don't go into just the cloud provider defaults for that level of performance, you are going with some sort of third-party tool. On the, I guess, bright side, that tool can be open-source, like, there's a lot of open-source tooling available now that is fast and free. For example, is our favorite, of course, Falco, which is looking at system calls on endpoints, and containers, and can detect things within seconds of them occurring and let you know immediately. There is other EBPF-based instrumentation that you can use out there from various vendors and/or open-source providers, and there's of course, network telemetry.So, if you're into the world of service mesh, there is data you can get off the network, also very fast. So, the bad news or the flip side to that is you have to be able to manage all that information, right? So, that means—again, like I said, you're not expecting a SOC analyst to look at thousands of system calls and thousands of, you know, network packets or flow logs or whatever you're looking at, and just magically know that these things go together. You are expecting to build, or have built for you by a vendor or the open-source community, some sort of dissection content that is taking this into account and then is able to deliver that alert at the speed of 5/5/5.Corey: When you see the larger picture stories playing out, as far as what customers are seeing, what the actual impact is, what gave rise to the five-minute number around this? Just because that tends to feel like it's a… it is both too long and also too short on some level. I'm just wondering how you wound up at—what is this based on?Anna: Man, we went through so many numbers. So, we [laugh] started with larger numbers, and then we went to smaller numbers, then we went back to medium numbers. We align ourselves with the timeframes we're seeing for people. Like I said, a lot of folks have an SLA of responding to a P0 within 10 or 15 minutes because their point basically—and there's a little bit of bias here into our customer base because our customer base is, A, fairly advanced in terms of cloud adoption and in terms of security maturity, and also, they're heavily in let's say, financial industries and other industries that tend to be early adopters of new technology. So, if you are kind of a laggard, like, you probably aren't that close to meeting this benchmark as you are if you're saying financial, right? So, we asked them how they operate, and they basically pointed out to us that, like, knowing 15 minutes later is too late because I've already lost, like, some number of millions of dollars if my environment is compromised for 15 minutes, right? So, that's kind of where the ten minutes comes from. Like, we took our real threat research data, and then we went around and talked to folks to see kind of what they're experiencing and what their own expectations are for their incident response in SOC teams, and ten minutes is sort of where we landed.Corey: Got it. When you see this happening, I guess, in various customer environments, assuming someone has missed that five-minute window, is a game over effectively? How should people be thinking about this?Anna: No. So, I mean, it's never really game over, right? Like until your company is ransomed to bits, and you have to close your business, you still have many things that you can do, hopefully, to save yourself. And also, I want to be very clear that 5/5/5 as a benchmark is meant to be something aspirational, right? So, you should be able to meet this benchmark for, let's say, your top use cases if you are a fairly high maturity organization, in threat detection specifically, right?So, if you're just beginning your threat detection journey, like, tomorrow, you're not going to be close. Like, you're going to be not at all close. The point here, though, is that you should aspire to this level of greatness, and you're going to have to create new processes and adopt new tools to get there. Now, before you get there, I would argue that if you can do, like, 10-10-10 or, like, whatever number you start with, you're on a mission to make that number smaller, right? So, if today, you can detect a crypto miner in 30 minutes, that's not great because crypto miners are pretty detectable these days, but give yourself a goal of, like, getting that 30 minutes down to 20, or getting that 30 minutes down to 10, right?Because we are so obsessed with, like, measuring ourselves against our peers and all this other stuff that we sometimes lose track of what actually is improving our security program. So yes, compare it to yourself first. But ultimately, if you can meet the 5/5/5 benchmark, then you are doing great. Like, you are faster than the attackers in theory, so that's the dream.Corey: So, I have to ask, and I suspect I might know the answer to this, but given that it seems very hard to move this quickly, especially at scale, is there an argument to be made that effectively prevention obviates the need for any of this, where if you don't misconfigure things in ways that should be obvious, if you practice defense-in-depth to a point where you can effectively catch things that the first layer meets with successive layers, as opposed to, “Well, we have a firewall. Once we're inside of there, well [laugh], it's game over for us.” Is prevention sufficient in some ways to obviate this?Anna: I think there are a lot of people that would love to believe that that's true.Corey: Oh, I sure would. It's such a comforting story.Anna: And we've done, like, I think one of my opening sentences in the benchmark, kind of, description, actually, is that we've done a pretty good job of advertising prevention in Cloud as an important thing and getting people to actually, like, start configuring things more carefully, or like, checking how those things have been configured, and then changing that configuration should they discover that it is not compliant with some mundane standard that everyone should know, right? So, we've made great progress, I think, in cloud prevention, but as usual, like, prevention fails, right? Like I still have smoke detectors in my house, even though I have done everything possible to prevent it from catching fire and I don't plan to set it on fire, right? But like, threat detection is one of these things that you're always going to need because no matter what you do, A, you will make a mistake because you're a human being, and there are too many things, and you'll make a mistake, and B, the bad guys are literally in the business of figuring ways around your prevention and your protective systems.So, I am full on on defense-in-depth. I think it's a beautiful thing. We should only obviously do that. And I do think that prevention is your first step to a holistic security program—otherwise, what even is the point—but threat detection is always going to be necessary. And like I said, even if you can't go 5/5/5, you don't have threat detection at that speed, you need to at least be able to know what happened later so you can update your prevention system.Corey: This might be a dangerous question to get into, but why not, that's what I do here. This [could 00:17:27] potentially an argument against Cloud, by which I mean that if I compromise someone's Cloud account on any of the major cloud providers, once I have access of some level, I know where everything else in the environment is as a general rule. I know that you're using S3 or its equivalent, and what those APIs look like and the rest, whereas as an attacker, if I am breaking into someone's crappy data center-hosted environment, everything is going to be different. Maybe they don't have a SAN at all, for example. Maybe they have one that hasn't been patched in five years. Maybe they're just doing local disk for some reason.There's a lot of discovery that has to happen that is almost always removed from Cloud. I mean, take the open S3 bucket problem that we've seen as a scourge for 5, 6, 7 years now, where it's not that S3 itself is insecure, but once you make a configuration mistake, you are now in line with a whole bunch of other folks who may have much more valuable data living in that environment. Where do you land on that one?Anna: This is the ‘leave cloud to rely on security through obscurity' argument?Corey: Exactly. Which I'm not a fan of, but it's also hard to argue against from time-to-time.Anna: My other way of phrasing it is ‘the attackers are ripping up the stack' argument. Yeah, so—and there is some sort of truth in that, right? Part of the reason that attackers can move that fast—and I think we say this a lot when we talk about the threat report data, too, because we literally see them execute this behavior, right—is they know what the cloud looks like, right? They have access to all the API documentation, they kind of know what all the constructs are that you're all using, and so they literally can practice their attack and create all these scripts ahead of time to perform their reconnaissance because they know exactly what they're looking at, right? On-premise, you're right, like, they're going to get into—even to get through my firewall, whatever, they're getting into my data center, they don't do not know what disaster I have configured, what kinds of servers I have where, and, like, what the network looks like, they have no idea, right?In Cloud, this is kind of all gifted to them because it's so standard, which is a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing because—well for them, I mean, because they can just programmatically go through this stuff, right? It's a curse for them because it's a blessing for us in the same way, right? Like, the defenders… A, have a much easier time knowing what they even have available to them, right? Like, the days of there's a server in a closet I've never heard of are kind of gone, right? Like, you know what's in your Cloud account because, frankly, AWS tells you. So, I think there is a trade-off there.The other thing is—about the moving up the stack thing, right—like no matter what you do, they will come after you if you have something worth exploiting you for, right? So, by moving up the stack, I mean, listen, we have abstracted all the physical servers, all of the, like, stuff we used to have to manage the security of because the cloud just does that for us, right? Now, we can argue about whether or not they do a good job, but I'm going to be generous to them and say they do a better job than most companies [laugh] did before. So, in that regard, like, we say, thank you, and we move on to, like, fighting this battle at a higher level in the stack, which is now the workloads and the cloud control plane, and the you name it, whatever is going on after that. So, I don't actually think you can sort of trade apples for oranges here. It's just… bad in a different way.Corey: Do you think that this benchmark is going to be used by various companies who will learn about it? And if so, how do you see that playing out?Anna: I hope so. My hope when we created it was that it would sort of serve as a goalpost or a way to measure—Corey: Yeah, it would just be marketing words on a page and never mentioned anywhere, that's our dream here.Anna: Yeah, right. Yeah, I was bored. So, I wrote some—[laugh].Corey: I had a word minimum to get out the door, so there we are. It's how we work.Anna: Right. As you know, I used to be a Gartner analyst, and my desire is always to, like, create things that are useful for people to figure out how to do better in security. And my, kind of, tenure at the vendor is just a way to fund that [laugh] more effectively [unintelligible 00:21:08].Corey: Yeah, I keep forgetting you're ex-Gartner. Yeah, it's one of those fun areas of, “Oh, yeah, we just want to basically talk about all kinds of things because there's a—we have a chart to fill out here. Let's get after it.”Anna: I did not invent an acronym, at least. Yeah, so my goal was the following. People are always looking for a benchmark or a goal or standard to be like, “Hey, am I doing a good job?” Whether I'm, like a SOC analyst or director, and I'm just looking at my little SOC empire, or I'm a full on CSO, and I'm looking at my entire security program to kind of figure out risk, I need some way to know whether what is happening in my organization is, like, sufficient, or on par, or anything. Is it good or is it bad? Happy face? Sad face? Like, I need some benchmark, right?So normally, the Gartner answer to this, typically, is like, “You can only come up with benchmarks that are—” they're, like, “Only you know what is right for your company,” right? It's like, you know, the standard, ‘it depends' answer. Which is true, right, because I can't say that, like, oh, a huge multinational bank should follow the same benchmark as, like, a donut shop, right? Like, that's unreasonable. So, this is also why I say that our benchmark is probably more tailored to the more advanced organizations that are dealing with kind of high maturity phenomena and are more cloud-native, but the donut shops should kind of strive in this direction, right?So, I hope that people will think of it this way: that they will, kind of, look at their process and say, “Hey, like, what are the things that would be really bad if they happened to me, in terms of sort detection?” Like, “What are the threats I'm afraid of where if I saw this in my cloud environment, I would have a really bad day?” And, “Can I detect those threats in 5/5/5?” Because if I can, then I'm actually doing quite well. And if I can't, then I need to set, like, some sort of roadmap for myself on how I get from where I am now to 5/5/5 because that implies you would be doing a good job.So, that's sort of my hope for the benchmark is that people think of it as something to aspire to, and if they're already able to meet it, then that they'll tell us how exactly they're achieving it because I really want to be friends with them.Corey: Yeah, there's a definite lack of reasonable ways to think about these things, at least in ways that can be communicated to folks outside of the bounds of the security team. I think that's one of the big challenges currently facing the security industry is that it is easy to get so locked into the domain-specific acronyms, philosophies, approaches, and the rest, that even coming from, “Well, I'm a cloud engineer who ostensibly needs to know about these things.” Yeah, wander around the RSA floor with that as your background, and you get lost very quickly.Anna: Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, it is a very, let's say, dynamic and rapidly evolving space. And by the way, like, it was really hard for me to pick these numbers, right, because I… very much am on that whole, ‘it depends' bandwagon of I don't know what the right answer is. Who knows what the right answer is [laugh]? So, I say 5/5/5 today. Like, tomorrow, the attack takes five minutes, and now it's two-and-a-half/two-and-a-half, right? Like it's whatever.You have to pick a number and go for it. So, I think, to some extent, we have to try to, like, make sense of the insanity and choose some best practices to anchor ourselves in or some, kind of like, sound logic to start with, and then go from there. So, that's sort of what I go for.Corey: So, as I think about the actual reaction times needed for 5/5/5 to actually be realistic, people can't reliably get a hold of me on the phone within five minutes, so it seems like this is not something you're going to have humans in the loop for. How does that interface with the idea of automating things versus giving automated systems too much power to take your site down as a potential failure mode?Anna: Yeah. I don't even answer the phone anymore, so that wouldn't work at all. That's a really, really good question, and probably the question that gives me the most… I don't know, I don't want to say lost sleep at night because it's actually, it's very interesting to think about, right? I don't think you can remove humans from the loop in the SOC. Like, certainly there will be things you can auto-respond to some extent, but there'd better be a human being in there because there are too many things at stake, right?Some of these actions could take your entire business down for far more hours or days than whatever the attacker was doing before. And that trade-off of, like, is my response to this attack actually hurting the business more than the attack itself is a question that's really hard to answer, especially for most of us technical folks who, like, don't necessarily know the business impact of any given thing. So, first of all, I think we have to embrace other response actions. Back to our favorite crypto miners, right? Like there is no reason to not automatically shut them down. There is no reason, right? Just build in a detection and an auto-response: every time you see a crypto miner, kill that process, kill that container, kill that node. I don't care. Kill it. Like, why is it running? This is crazy, right?I do think it gets nuanced very quickly, right? So again, in SCARLETEEL, there are essentially, like, five or six detections that occur, right? And each of them theoretically has a potential auto-response that you could have executed depending on your, sort of, appetite for that level of intervention, right? Like, when you see somebody assuming a role, that's perfectly normal activity most of the time. In this case, I believe they actually assumed a machine role, which is less normal. Like, that's kind of weird.And then what do you do? Well, you can just, like, remove the role. You can remove that person's ability to do anything, or remove that role's ability to do anything. But that could be very dangerous because we don't necessarily know what the full scope of that role is as this is happening, right? So, you could take, like, a more mitigated auto-response action and add a restrictive policy to that rule, for example, to just prevent activity from that IP address that you just saw, right, because we're not sure about this IP address, but we're sure about this role, right?So, you have to get into these, sort of, risk-tiered response actions where you say, “Okay, this is always okay to do automatically. And this is, like, sometimes, okay, and this is never okay.” And as you develop that muscle, it becomes much easier to do something rather than doing nothing and just, kind of like, analyzing it in forensics and being, like, “Oh, what an interesting attack story,” right? So, that's step one, is just start taking these different response actions.And then step two is more long-term, and it's that you have to embrace the cloud-native way of life, right? Like this immutable, ephemeral, distributed religion that we've been selling, it actually works really well if you, like, go all-in on the religion. I sound like a real cult leader [laugh]. Like, “If you just go all in, it's going to be great.” But it's true, right?So, if your workflows are immutable—that means they cannot change as they're running—then when you see them drifting from their original configuration, like, you know, that is bad. So, you can immediately know that it's safe to take an auto-respon—well, it's safe, relatively safe, take an auto-response action to kill that workload because you are, like, a hundred percent certain it is not doing the right things, right? And then furthermore, if all of your deployments are defined as code, which they should be, then it is approximately—[though not entirely 00:27:31]—trivial to get that workload back, right? Because you just push a button, and it just generates that same Kubernetes cluster with those same nodes doing all those same things, right? So, in the on-premise world where shooting a server was potentially the, you know, fireable offense because if that server was running something critical, and you couldn't get it back, you were done.In the cloud, this is much less dangerous because there's, like, an infinite quantity of servers that you could bring back and hopefully Infrastructure-as-Code and, kind of, Configuration-as-Code in some wonderful registry, version-controlled for you to rely on to rehydrate all that stuff, right? So again, to sort of TL;DR, get used to doing auto-response actions, but do this carefully. Like, define a scope for those actions that make sense and not just, like, “Something bad happened; burn it all down,” obviously. And then as you become more cloud-native—which sometimes requires refactoring of entire applications—by the way, this could take years—just embrace the joy of Everything-as-Code.Corey: That's a good way of thinking about it. I just, I wish there were an easier path to get there, for an awful lot of folks who otherwise don't find a clear way to unlock that.Anna: There is not, unfortunately [laugh]. I mean, again, the upside on that is, like, there are a lot of people that have done it successfully, I have to say. I couldn't have said that to you, like, six, seven years ago when we were just getting started on this journey, but especially for those of you who were just at KubeCon—however, long ago… before this airs—you see a pretty robust ecosystem around Kubernetes, around containers, around cloud in general, and so even if you feel like your organization's behind, there are a lot of folks you can reach out to to learn from, to get some help, to just sort of start joining the masses of cloud-native types. So, it's not nearly as hopeless as before. And also, one thing I like to say always is, almost every organization is going to have some technical debt and some legacy workload that they can't convert to the religion of cloud.And so, you're not going to have a 5/5/5 threat detection SLA on those workloads. Probably. I mean, maybe you can, but probably you're not, and you may not be able to take auto-response actions, and you may not have all the same benefits available to you, but like, that's okay. That's okay. Hopefully, whatever that thing is running is, you know, worth keeping alive, but set this new standard for your new workloads. So, when your team is building a new application, or if they're refactoring an application, can't afford the new world, set the standard on them and don't, kind of like, torment the legacy folks because it doesn't necessarily make sense. Like, they're going to have different SLAs for different workloads.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me yet again about the stuff you folks are coming out with. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to go?Anna: Thanks, Corey. It's always a pleasure to be on your show. If you want to learn more about the 5/5/5 benchmark, you should go to sysdig.com/555.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. As always, it's appreciated. Anna Belak, Director at the Office of Cybersecurity Strategy at Sysdig. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this has been a promoted guest episode brought to us by our friends at Sysdig. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry, insulting comment that I will read nowhere even approaching within five minutes.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business, and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

This week on the podcast, we're exploring the choices that we have in every moment. It's common in our culture to look at our lives in terms of "have-tos," but staying in that space takes away our agency and our joy. By getting curious about our have-tos, we can figure out what is really important to us and play with ways to make the things we do more enjoyable. And in difficult moments, when it really feels like terrible things are happening to us, we still have the choice of how to respond, what story we tell about our situation, and what energy we bring to it. Realizing how much choice we have can be so empowering!We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.Do you find yourself saying “I have to” a lot? Can you find any patterns around when you see it happening more frequently?How does it feel to think about having choices in each moment? What helps you find your center when moving through a challenge? What choices do you see around the stories you are currently telling about your life?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hi, and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We're happy you're here and interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.In today's episode, we're going to talk about choice. I love talking about and grounding ourselves in choice, because life is filled with choices from the mundane to the epic. And for the most part, it's an invisible process. We're making decisions on the fly throughout the day. Other decisions are made with a lot of deliberation and forethought and take a lot of time, but the ability to choose is something that empowers us. The knowledge that, no matter what, we have a choice.PAM: Right, and that is so surprisingly easy to forget in the moment. I can find myself moving through parts of my day almost by rote, and sometimes that means I'm in the flow of things, feeling good and accomplishing things I want and choose to do. And other times things start to rub.When I start hearing myself say, "Oh, I have to do this," that feeling that I don't have a choice is a good clue that I'm probably feeling a bit overstretched or under-resourced, and it's a great clue to step back, take a breath, and just take a moment to look around a bit.It's so easy to fall into the "I have to" trap, because it is used so much in our culture. The phrase "I have to," or, "You have to," has become so commonplace that we've mostly stopped questioning it altogether. It just seeps into our everyday language. We say we have to go to the store, we have to brush our teeth, we have to go to bed, and so many more things. And soon, we start to believe that we have to do all the things, that we don't have a choice, that we are, in fact, prisoners to a long list of have to's.And not only that, when we come to feel that we don't have choices and buy into this whole "have to" ethos, it's usually not long before we start to feel pulled to impose them on others. "This has to be done and you have to help," which then can lead to judging others around the things we think they have to do. Like, "Why aren't they doing this thing I don't want to do, but have to do?" It is so disempowering and disconnecting.So, taking a moment to look at a situation, any situation, even small everyday ones, and noticing that choices actually exist helps us let go of that overwhelming feeling of being trapped in our days. It reminds us that we have agency. We can use phrases like, "I have to," or, "You have to," as red flags, signs that it's a good time to step back and see where we're feeling pinched, where we're feeling controlled, because definitely those things can sneak up on us bit by bit.And then, we can dig deeper to identify our underlying needs, find the choices in the soil of the have to's and shift things up to meet our needs in ways that don't include controlling others or even using control tactics on ourselves. Realizing that I always have choices has been such a freeing and empowering mindset shift for me. It's just been amazing.ANNA: Oh my gosh. For me, too. It's been such a critical part. The shift from feeling like life is happening to me, to understanding my agency and navigating this thing called life. It's funny, I have a good friend whose husband does not buy into this idea at all. So, he believes, “There aren't always choices, Anna,” but I find it so interesting.And one of the examples he used was, “Well, we have to do the animal chores in the morning.” So, they have a small farm, donkeys, goats, chickens. And here's the thing. They don't have to do that. They could choose to re-home the animals. They could skip the morning chores or do them later. I know the lap of luxury these animals live in and they would be just fine. They could also hire someone to do the chores for them.There's always a choice and with each choice, we hone in on our priorities. They don't want to re-home the animals. They love them. They love bringing the special treats in the morning and moving the donkeys to the track to watch them play and run. They don't have to do those things. They want to. And maybe they decide it's not worth the money to pay someone else, or in that choice, they realize that they actually enjoy it and might miss it and don't want someone else doing it for them.And so, then it's like, okay, so if we're feeling pinched about time, in that exploration, they might find they'd rather free up time in another way, adjusting something they don't enjoy as much. What a different feeling than to feel we're held hostage by an obligation. And maybe it's just semantics and energy, but I really think it's worth examining our language about any of these have to's and deciding if that language is serving us.Is it helping us find joy? Is it helping us enjoy the things around us? Could examining it as a choice help us understand what we actually want to do and how we want to spend our time and resources?PAM: Yes. I think what can happen over time is that we make a choice and then it's new and exciting.We relish it. It's fun. And then, over time, we shortcut our language down to, "I have to."For me, it feels like as the activity becomes more commonplace in my days, "Every morning I've got to go take care of the animals," my internal language becomes more efficient. "I have to take out the animals, I have to take the dogs out," all the all the things. "I have to go grocery shopping, I have to clean the bathrooms."And I think the word obligation is a great way to describe that feeling and the growing weight of it. And I think we can naturally start to resist that obligation and maybe even start to resent it. So, if our internal "have to" language doesn't catch our attention, eventually that growing weight of obligation or resentment definitely might. So, time to dig in and see what's in there. What's the rub?And what's so interesting is so often digging in helped me remember my why. So, you had that wonderful example about the animals. I'm going to take a quick moment to look at cleaning bathrooms, because it is a very basic example. But to give you an idea of ways to dig into those festering feelings.So, I can remind myself that I enjoy the feeling of walking into a clean bathroom. If I realize that's even feeling a bit stale for me, I can start there. So, maybe I choose to spruce up the bathroom a bit, bringing in a plant or two, or some art for the walls. Maybe I print out an inspirational quote or two that makes me smile, or a couple of pictures that make me laugh and I tape them to the mirror. How can I more enjoy walking into this mostly utilitarian room?I find that is such a fun way to look at things. It's like, cleaning the bathroom, what do you mean decorating it or whatever? But that is a wonderful aspect to look at, too.I can also contemplate the cleaning schedule that I'm holding myself to. There are no bathroom police that are going to come and arrest me if I don't stick to it. So, what if I change that up, extending the period between deep cleans? How does that feel? I can try it out and see. That's something you can always play with and is likely to change over time, depending as the number of people rise and fall.So, just because we've done it weekly for years doesn't mean it has to be weekly forever more. That frequency may well change over the seasons of our lives.And we can look at the how. How can I make it easier for me to slip into cleaning? Can I keep the cleaning supplies in the bathroom ready to grab quickly? That may mean having more supplies up front, but they each last longer, because they're only being used in one bathroom. So, it works itself out. Can I make the process itself more enjoyable? I often put on my headphones and listen to podcasts or sometimes upbeat music to help my body get moving. Or we could also choose to pay for cleaning service if that's an option. There are just so many possibilities.So, after taking some time to dig in and discover what's really rubbing for me, so often, I still do the thing. I clean the bathrooms. But my internal language is much different now, because I remembered how much choice and agency I have. It may not be the most fun I'll have all day, but I remember why I want to do it and I've made the process more pleasurable, particularly the bits of the process that were rubbing me the wrong way. My internal language is lighter. Maybe even, "I want to clean the bathrooms today," rather than that obligatory weight of, "I have to."It's so fascinating to see that we can find choice even in the most mundane bits and pieces of life.ANNA: And just how different it feels when we do. I mean, those choices all along the way. And I think the money piece that I talked about is a really interesting way to check in. So, do I want to pay somebody to do this? Does it have that value or is it not that big of a deal? Is my time more valuable there?It's playing with it, asking questions that we talk so much about. It just opens up instead of getting stuck in the weight of the have to's. So, yeah, I love that, because again, I just really think it helps us hone in on our priorities and get back to that why, like you said, and then we know, okay, I got these animals for a reason and I like having a clean bathroom and that's why I'm doing it for me. Whatever those things are, getting back to that why.PAM: Yeah. And I love that priority piece. That was episode number one, because that is so foundational, playing around with our priorities and the time that we've got, the things that we want to do. We can always bring it back there to realize that we have choices with all the things that we think are on our plate.ANNA: Yes. And it just really changes things. But I do want to talk about times when it feels like there really is no choice, that life has happened to us. There's a tragedy, a death, a loss of something that's out of our control, because that's going to happen to all of us. It's certainly happened to me and realizing I still had the choice of how I react made all the difference in moving through those difficult events. No, I couldn't change the fact that the job was lost or the injury happened, but I could decide how I was going to let that impact my mood, how I was feeling, and how I wanted to move through the world.So, for me, that helped me to put things into perspective and to feel again, that life wasn't just happening to me. I've had some pretty difficult things happen to me over the years. We all have, but the times I'm able to ground back into who I want to be, how I want to learn from what's happening around me, and how I want to find joy, even in the darkest moments, those were the times that I moved through the events with the most ease. It's not easy necessarily, but with more ease than when I was fighting and bucking against the reality of what was happening.And, for me, gratitude was a big part of that. Finding those little spots of gratitude is a choice, and I found that I could find them even in the darkest of days. And with that choice, that first move towards looking for the tiny points of light, the shifts would start and new ways forward would present themselves.PAM: Yes, definitely. Things happen in our lives that are out of our control. Times where we find ourselves just reacting to things. It can feel like our life has come to a standstill with this big thing. And for a time, that can definitely be helpful, because it needs immediate attention, right? Yet moving through these challenging events often takes time and staying stuck in that emergency mode can have its consequences.So, for me, once the initial shock and overwhelm began to ease a bit, I found it helpful to gently remind myself to come back to the present whenever I noticed myself getting stuck in my head with my swirling thoughts. Because in the present, I slowly began to notice those bits and pieces of life that are happening around me. Those spots of gratitude, as you mentioned, Anna, even small ones, like how the light comes through the window, a moment of connection with my child that makes me smile. Continuing to bring myself to the present, soon I was open enough to start to see more possibilities, new ways forward that I couldn't see when I was like stuck in tunnel vision. I began to see choices.ANNA: Yes. And that's what it's all about, finding our way to just seeing the choice in the moments. And so, this leads to another area where our choices influence our perspective. And it's an area where we often give away our powers. And it's, we tell our own stories. We're the creators, we're the writers, we're the orators of these stories of our lives.And digging into stories is so important to us that we're going to do an entire episode on it in a couple weeks, but I think it's worth talking about it right now in this context of choice and seeing how it's playing out in our days, because our stories have a way of defining us for ourselves and for others. For ourselves, they become this sort of self-talk. If that talk is negative and full of worry and distress, then we can become that. If that talk is positive and full of joy and gratitude, then we become that. We start to embody it.For others, it colors the way they see us. They trust that our story is our truth. And if that truth is steeped in frustration and anger, then we can attract the frustrated and angry, because it's that whole misery loved company thing. And if that truth is infused with joy and gratitude, we tend to attract the people that are looking for joy and gratitude. And I've found that, for me, where I put my energy is the areas that I'm growing. And so, I just want to be really aware of that. And so, again, it just boils down to this choice. How do we want to spend our energy and what do we want to attract with it?PAM: Yeah. The stories we tell ourselves and those around us have such a big impact on us. So, I am really looking forward to diving into that idea more deeply in a couple of weeks. But it is also a great lens to consider when we're thinking about choice, because if the story we're telling ourselves and the people around us is that we don't have a choice, that we have to do X, Y, Z, that's most likely going to be the one we all run with. So often, we treat our stories as facts. "This is the situation. Now where do we go from here?" And that's where people join us.So, if our story is grounded in frustration and full of have to's, that's where they join us, often sharing their frustrations and just generally tossing around in the muck with us. Back to that misery loves company. But if our story is steeped in choice and possibilities, that's where they'll jump in with us. Oh, that is a big change. Best of luck with that. Have you considered this? They're just generally more supportive and helpful. And both stories can absolutely be true to the facts. But we get to choose which one we tell ourselves and others, which one feels better to us in the moment. And that is not a trick question. Sometimes what feels better is to vent, right?But it is absolutely helpful to remember that it's a choice and we don't need to stick to that version of our story forever.ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. We can change a story when it stops serving us. That's another big revelation. Like, "Oh, this story I've been hanging onto, I can change it up." So, lots to consider there.So, we're going to leave you with a few questions to ponder.First, do you find yourself saying, "I have to," a lot? Really listen, because actually we don't even always notice it.PAM: That's so true.ANNA: Tune in. Can you find any patterns around when you see it happening more frequently? And kind of like you talked about, Pam, it tends to be those under-resourced moments, where we kind of start clicking off the have to's and the giant list and all the things.How does it feel to think about having choices in each moment?PAM: So, I think that'll be a big one. You don't even have to like move forward with it, but just take a moment to think, "Oh, what if I had a choice?" If you can't see a choice yet. But it could even just be how does it feel to think about, "Oh, what if there were choices?" And that I think can be the first little baby step.ANNA: I'm so curious how my friend's husband's going to think about some of this stuff, because he listens to the podcast. And so, what does it feel like to just think, but what if you did have a choice? What if you let go of that story that you don't?So, another thing is, what helps you find your center when you're moving through a challenge? I think that can just be really helpful, because we're going to keep getting challenge. So, helping people understand what helps us move through that, what helps it feel a bit more with ease, what helps us find that gratitude, whatever it is that feels good.And lastly, what choices do you see around the stories you are currently telling about your life? Yeah, that's going to be good. Because we're always telling stories. If you're sitting there listening, going, "I don't know if I have stories," no, you do. You have stories. And let's look at them like, because these can be things we are carrying with us for a long time. And again, check back in a couple weeks when we really dig into stories as well.So, just thinking about this idea of choice, I think is just interesting. Play with it. How does it feel? What feels better? How does it work? So, yeah, I think it's going to be fun.PAM: Yes, I think so, too. And that stories one, too. As you said, if you don't think you're telling stories, I think just take a pull back and instead of choices around the stories you're telling yourself, think about, what stories am I telling myself? Just start to look through the lens of story and see how that feels. See what you see. I think it'll be so interesting to dive into.ANNA: Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.PAM: Bye.

Anna Spearman is the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients. Chad talks with Anna about founding and growing the company, immediately after graduating college, during a pandemic, reputation building, and facing skepticism around her lack of track record in recruiting, and finding and providing talent for clients as a white-glove service. Techie Staffing (https://techiestaffing.com/) Follow Techie Staffing on Twitter (https://twitter.com/StaffingTechie), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/techiestaffing), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/techiestaffing/) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/techie-staffing/). Follow Anna on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/annaspearman/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Anna Spearman, the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients. Anna, thanks so much for joining me. ANNA: Thank you so much for inviting me, Chad. CHAD: In theory, at the surface level, Techie Staffing is probably fairly straightforward in terms of what you do. But I'm curious how you got started. ANNA: Yes, of course. So I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's been two years. Two years ago, I was, during that time, attending the University of Virginia, where I was majoring in computer science with a minor in entrepreneurship. And in the spring of 2020, I was planning on coming back home to...I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and I was planning to come back home for spring break. And I was finishing out my second semester of senior year. So I was planning my [chuckles] victory lap of going back home, taking a little bit of a rest time, and then coming back to UVA to finish my degree, graduate, and move on to a new job in Los Angeles. But unfortunately, as my plane was landing in Los Angeles, we kept hearing about COVID. And so the pandemic hit in the middle of my spring break. And during that time, I had to finish my second semester of senior year remote. It was very stressful, but when I finished the degree, I was so fulfilled. But unfortunately, there was a rapid dwindling of entry-level tech and product roles. I initially either wanted to be a software engineer or a product manager or be a software engineer that transitioned into a technical product manager. But unfortunately, once the pandemic hit, companies weren't willing to ramp up entry-level talent. Companies didn't really know what was going to happen in the future, and everybody was remote. So it was just a really confusing time. But while I was searching through different job boards trying to find new opportunities, especially entry-level opportunities, I found just a wealth of senior tech jobs, specifically with companies that were thriving due to the pandemic. During that time, companies like Peloton, Discord, Zoom, they were all soaring due to the pandemic. So I had heard about contingent recruiting in the past. My biggest dream for a new opportunity for myself graduating out of college was just to learn something new every day because I've always had a very much an interdisciplinary background. I've never been able to stay in one area. I've always loved to try different things. So with a little bit of a background recruiting at a past summer internship as well as wanting to utilize my entrepreneurship minor...I'm actually a fourth-generation woman entrepreneur. So definitely, growing up, creating my own business was my dream. So really, that was my main goal. I thought I was going to transition from a current role into entrepreneurship, but I had my back against the wall. So I just thought, why not start now? So I created Techie Staffing, a technology staffing agency specializing in direct hire placements nationwide. I basically had my virtual graduation; then I took a week. And then, I got started creating the website, establishing the business paperwork, as well as developing strategic partnerships with senior technical recruiters that had full candidate pipelines to fill incoming job requisitions. And I basically started off with nothing. I had no contacts, no network, just nothing at all. And I was really starting just fresh. So I really had to really spend a lot of time networking and developing relationships as well as just learning and mastering full lifecycle recruiting, especially with engineering since there's such a supply and demand issue for software engineers. So you're just consistently following up and contacting people that could potentially be interested in your companies. But it really blew up. As I was establishing everything in 2020 from summer to the end of 2020, it was 2021 when it really blew up where I contacted this founder during the time they had raised a Series B 50 million, which was amazing, and they were going through a hiring sprint. So we got connected fairly quickly. And with just great team synergy, we were actually able to place five people in one month, and it was frontend, backend, and full-stack developers. So that really jump-started Techie Staffing. And then after that, we worked with...we're now working with Fortune 500 companies as well as high-growth startups and really building a diversified portfolio, and we're also a certified woman-owned business which I'm so proud of because there aren't really a lot of women or even just women of color that are founders. So I was really happy to get that certification, really proud of that as well. I always say all the time to everybody it's super stressful, but it's so rewarding at the same time. And I do believe that it's honestly, you know, I know the pandemic has been super hard on people. And it's been such a change and such a shift. But there is still a part of me that is so grateful for making that pivot because I really found something that I feel like I really enjoy doing every day. CHAD: That's great. I really commend you on everything you've done so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to do in the future. You now have grown where you're multiple people on your team. ANNA: Yeah, so we actually hired two new people fairly recently. I did have one direct hire recruiter working with me. So now it's officially a team of four. I did develop the strategic part. I do still have some strategic partnerships as well because on that part, at first, I was partnering with recruiters that were independent, so who were a little bit more entrepreneurial so that we could split the placement fee. But it's still better to just have full-time employees. I'm so excited to have two new additional hires, and it's still new for me. So I'm really looking forward to growing together in terms of growing Techie Staffing and growing into being a full life cycle recruiter because it wasn't that long ago when I was in that same exact spot. And it's so amazing. It still blows my mind to this day how two years ago, thinking about interviewing candidates or selling to clients, and now what I've evolved in. It's been absolutely amazing. So I'm so happy to see their journey and seeing them transition into being technical recruiters and also making a pivot in their career as well, which that's still blowing my mind a little bit. I'm sure you know founding thoughtbot and really building that from the ground up. So it's just amazing seeing that infrastructure. It just really brings a brighter future as well. CHAD: So what kind of people do you look for when you're looking to add to your team? Are you bringing on people who have experience with recruiting? Or are you bringing on people who are transitioning into it? ANNA: I would say for Q1 and Q2 of 2022 and even a little bit beforehand, since there was a surge in demand for everything and tech companies were just scaling like crazy, there was very much a competitive market for recruiters, specifically technical recruiters. Because that's what companies were really looking for to scale their engineering and product teams. So it was very, very competitive to recruit for a technical recruiter. So now you see agencies now who are hiring people who can have the DNA for a technical recruiter but not necessarily have direct experience, which I think can be really, really cool. Because like I said, like two years ago, I knew absolutely nothing, and now I feel very much confident in the full life cycle. So I think that's really cool to have people be able to pivot into a really cool industry where you're really learning something new every day, and you're speaking to really interesting people. We specialize in senior up until C-suite, so yeah, learning from people who are senior all the way up to Director, VP. So it's really interesting. So when I was approaching hiring, I really wanted to find someone who had that DNA that can potentially transition to being a technical recruiter. And that DNA would be, you know, it doesn't have to be personality but just really interacting with engineers, just maybe being a self-starter. I would say great communication, and lastly, I would say just really hungry. Yes, I would say hungry. Because if you're really hungry and you're really willing to learn and be open, so openness as well, then you can really understand the rules or just the lifecycle and the process of being a recruiter, and then you can change people's lives. I actually had one...It was about a year ago, I was working with a Fortune 500 company, and I recruited this guy, and I led him through the process. And it was about maybe a month later when he told me I had basically changed his life. Him and his family were now moving to Atlanta, and it was a new role, and it was just a fresh start. And he was just telling me how appreciative he was of me, and so that really hit home. So I think for those two new hires, I'm so excited to have them get super engaged and be able to change other people's lives as well under the Techie Staffing name, of course. CHAD: You mentioned early on that you're contingent recruiting. So correct me if I'm wrong, but that means that you get paid when you place somebody, when someone gets hired from the company that hires them. ANNA: Yes. CHAD: But then you also mentioned that these people who you're bringing onto your team are full-time. So how does the compensation structure typically work for them? ANNA: Oh, compensation, we have them on salary, but they do have commission. So we wanted to really give; like I said, I want us to grow together. So I do provide commission for each placement they'll place just to really provide incentive. Like I said, it's so early. I want us to think of each other just as teammates and a team because we're all building towards the same goal. So just really wanted to provide incentives where they're really feeling like they're almost owning it full life cycle as well. Because like I said, it's early on, and these can be really strong pillars in the future. So there is salary, but there's also that commission as well to just really provide that incentive. And I know for me personally, incentive can be awesome, so definitely trying to provide that motivation and having them really feel like they're an integral part. CHAD: What's the harder part of your business? Or are they equally hard, finding new clients versus finding people who want to work with you on the candidate side? ANNA: On the business development side, I would say it was harder perhaps in the beginning because I just so was starting with nothing, really. I had just graduated from college. And a lot of agency owners they previously have maybe worked at a really cool tech startup, or maybe they've been working on their agencies for the past 5 or 10 years. They have previous years of experience, but I didn't have that. So I had to convey another method of just really networking, really meeting people, and just really knowing my stuff and having a handle on it. I know maybe a lot of people say, like, just fake it until you make it because then once you make it, and then you get that experience, then you can transfer that experience to new experiences as well. So at first, it was really just building myself up and building the Techie Staffing brand so that we could acquire those clients. In terms of the candidate side, I would say Techie Staffing, and one of the things and part of our brand that we love to portray is that we are the agency that has the companies with the best employer branding. Because like I said, with the supply and demand issue for the software engineers, it is so competitive to attract them to new opportunities. There are just so many companies that are contacting them multiple times a day. So there has to be at least a little bit of a shine or a little bit of a differentiator for companies that you're recruiting for. So we actually specialize in companies that are Series B and above that do have that established employer branding where engineers are really interested in joining that company, so that's just the thing. It's like really having companies that have strong employer branding and being able to follow up. Follow-ups are really, really important when it comes to engaging engineers because, like I said, it's just a super competitive market and just trying to provide them a great white-glove experience. There are some agencies that fall a little bit too close to the client-side where the client is always right. And there are some that fall too much to the candidate side where the candidate is right, but we really want to be a balanced middleman where we're just trying to find the compromise and find the best solution for everybody. So that's the real important part of it of just really providing them with a great experience and showing them that we care and that we're rooting for them. Because it sometimes does surprise me when candidates can be a little...maybe this is a part of me being new. But that's kind of an advantage, too, because I'm still paying attention to detail. That's where my computer science major comes in. It's like constantly trying to stay in tune with candidates and what they need, so just trying to provide a great experience in general. And I'm sure you feel that way with your clients. You're a consultancy as well where you're trying to be B2B and contact these different companies. So how do you conduct business development and really differentiate yourself? CHAD: We focused a lot on reputation building, so blogging, creating open source so that we don't need, fortunately, to cold contact people. And when we do, we're fortunate enough that they might already know about us. And so it's an easier conversation to have because they may already be reading our blog, or they may already be using some of our open source in their product. And so it becomes an easier conversation to have. But the majority of our clients actually come to us when they have a need because we're fortunate enough to have worked to be at the top of the list. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And I'm still doing that, just reputation building. With one of our Fortune 500, we're doing incredibly well with them to the point where we're filling their pipelines, and we have majority of our candidates in their pipeline. So that's what we're really working on right now is just consistently...and I know like with any business, you have to just constantly build that reputation. So I especially just try to provide a great experience for candidates because they can also be hiring managers as well, so just really providing that white-glove experience. And also, a cool differentiator we always like to showcase is like, I'm a computer science major. And actually, the two people that I just hired have a tech background. So it's not like tech is entirely foreign to us. We've engaged with programming languages. We've coded projects. So we do have some form of understanding when it comes to certain technologies or certain projects that certain engineers are working on. And that's what really gets me excited to speak with engineers because it's so cool and interesting hearing about them working on their projects and working on projects that directly affect me and the products that I'm interacting with. So it's so cool to hear about their...I can understand a bit. And so that's another thing we have with Techie Staffing is really finding people who have a bit of a tech background so at least they have a little bit of knowledge or an understanding of what projects and can be able to really share and convey that to clients that are looking for this talent. CHAD: You mentioned it's a really competitive market now. And as a company who probably has multiple clients, how do you minimize or how do you deal with the potential competition for the limited supply among your own clients? ANNA: Among my own clients, I will say that right now we don't have...for the roles that we're working on for each client, they're not very similar or too, too similar, which is a good thing. We would like it in the future where we could have the same role, but we can understand how that can be a little tricky as well. CHAD: And how do they differ then? Are they differing by the technology experience that they're looking for or the sort of level of the role? How are they different? ANNA: It could be technology, difference of the role. So, for example, for a Fortune 500 company that we're working with, we'll work more with UX, data science, data science roles, as well as...so UX, data science. And then for high-growth startups, mostly with them, they're really looking for back-end engineers, but overall just engineering so frontend, backend, DevOps. We are working potentially to do engineering or more engineering-heavy for our Fortune 500 companies. We have recently been working on a VP of engineering. So for Fortune 500 for now, we've been working more with leadership roles especially, and for high-growth, it's been more engineering IC. But we would like to transition that in the future to have it kind of...or have roles that maybe some candidates could go to this company, and some candidates can go to that startup. And then another differentiator could be or what makes our clientele different from each other is for high-growth startups, especially for engineering ICs, they're really looking for candidates that come from high-growth startups who just understand the current company where they are, and how they're scaling during that period of time around that series B and series C. That's the time to really scale. And Fortune 500 companies they can be open to startups, but for the most part, especially sometimes for leaders who need to have a certain amount of direct reports, they're more looking for people from larger companies. So that would be one way to kind of separate it and so we're not having candidates almost be where they have to compete with candidates within our own company. Because with the difference in the leveling of companies, there's just a difference in what kind of candidates that they're looking for. Mid-Roll Ad: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: url tbot.io/devops CHAD: When I was first starting thoughtbot, I really felt like I needed to take every client that we could get because we were just starting out. We needed to make money. We needed to build a reputation. And so, I felt like we needed to say yes to every client. Over the years, I learned that that was actually watering us down, and it made us less successful. And the more we were clear about who we were, and what we did, and what clients we were best for, the more successful we were. Have you gotten to the point where you needed to turn down clients? ANNA: Because I do such targeted biz dev, we will contact companies that we personally want to work with. But I will say in the beginning, there were some companies that were a lot smaller that, just like you said, you just felt the need to want to rack up a client list. And you just are ready to go and wanting to work with someone. It really motivated me to really take a look and really go deep into the type of clients that we want. So, for example, really, really early-stage companies can have a really, really hard time hiring because, like I said, employer branding is so, so important. And so usually what they'll have is maybe like mission, but they won't really have salary. Or they won't really have the employer branding of the company of candidates either knowing about the company or being able to search the company really quickly and seeing the platform that the company is building and seeing how strong it is. So it's really, really hard to recruit for those stages. I mean, it is possible, but it's just really hard. And then at the same time for these early-stage companies, they really want to, which I totally understand, you know, when you're having your probably 8th, 9th, or 10th engineer and being on the founding team, you really want a strong engineer because that's your platform, that's your baby. You don't want anybody that, you know, it could potentially maybe cause problems, or they really want somebody there they can trust. And so it's hard, you know like I said -- CHAD: But they might not be able to afford that. [laughs] ANNA: Yes, they might either not be able to afford it, or they also cannot interview fast enough in order to just get the offer in their hands. Because I understand they really want to have them speak to the entire team and have them have an in-depth process because it's very much an important role. But these candidates and startups are moving so fast right now where I will speak to a candidate one day, and he or she or they'll probably say, "Oh, you know, I'm passively looking. I'm not really actively looking." And maybe a week and a half to two weeks later, they're like, "Oh, I actually have two offers in hand." So it goes really, really fast versus earlier stage; it can just go a little bit slower because they're just really taking the time to go more in-depth and see if this prospective candidate is the right fit, which is totally understandable. But it was just really hard for us as contingent trying to find that candidate, that perfect candidate for them as well as trying to keep candidates warm and keep them interested when some companies just have like mission. So now, in the future, I've just really, like I said, Techie Staffing, we specialize from Series B and above. And I really just make sure during business development exploratory chats that I'm really going in-depth and making sure I understand the roles that they're prioritizing their time to hire. So if they have a long, long interview process and a really, really low salary in terms of the competitive market, then I may not be as interested in that startup as opposed to another startup whose interview process timeline could be about a week and a half to two weeks. And it doesn't have to be absolutely amazingly competitive base salary but just a fairly competitive salary with a great timeline for time to hire. So that's been my way of just condensing or just being a little bit more pickier in terms of clients in the future. Were there any certain clients for you where you started working with them, and you were like, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't have," that's now caused you to be a little bit more pickier for clients in the future? CHAD: Part of it was the kind of work. So we really wanted to be writing software. But just starting out, I also had a background in sort of IT support. And so, when I was reaching out, particularly to past clients, they might say, "You built our website. Now can you help us with purchasing a computer or setting up a computer network in our office?" I felt compelled to say, "Yes," because I felt like we needed all the work we could get. But by doing that work that wasn't really what we wanted to be doing, we were not only less happy in our work, but it was taking time and attention away from the work that we really wanted to be doing. The other was values and practices, which took a little bit longer to form a real understanding of what our values were and the practices that we believe in. But now there's a pretty clear list of the kinds of companies that...what we say at thoughtbot is that we want to work on things that deserve to exist in the world. And so there's a whole bunch of industries that they might not even be actively doing harm in the world, but they are the ones that we wouldn't work in. But even if it's just not a positive contribution to the world, it's probably not going to be something that we're excited to work on. ANNA: That's been an exciting trend, actually, to speak with engineers about. I've started seeing that trend where engineers are saying, "I don't want to create anything evil," or "I just want to do good." And that's been a really awesome selling point for some teams. It definitely is a cherry on top where engineers are really looking for social impact. And the cool part is they have so many opportunities that are coming towards them that they can really pick and choose which one. So to find people who are really looking for social good and just really mission-driven products is amazing to see. And I'm really happy with the work...I'm actually working with a data science team for AI ethics. And that's been really interesting hearing some people talk about their projects and hearing about how data can really not only just strengthen bias but also can just really produce results that can harm certain groups of people, which is so interesting. And it can be something so, so small that I haven't even noticed at all, but that can lead to a big difference. CHAD: Yeah, we've had several episodes about that. ANNA: And it's amazing. And it really is just a huge difference with something so small. And as a woman of color, I'm always aware of what's going on in terms of just ethical practices or just fairness and seeing bias. But in terms of data, seeing something so so small can affect just a whole group of underrepresented people is just amazing to see. But it's also amazing that people or data scientists are now aware of it, and now they're changing it so that it no longer...at least they'll be able to alleviate that bias. CHAD: I want to ask a little bit more about that, and then I want to talk about some market trends. But if you're comfortable, I'm curious; you already mentioned you were just out of college when you were getting started. So there was skepticism around your lack of track record in recruiting. And you've mentioned that you are a woman of color. And so I think as engineers, as people in the market, we probably have this image in our head of what a typical recruiter looks like in terms of attitude, and values, and demographics. And you don't fit that mold in almost any way, basically. Is this actually a positive for you now, or is it actually still hard? Are there companies that are actively seeking out to work with you because they want that different approach? Or are you still facing that skepticism? ANNA: I'm still facing that skepticism. I actually created Techie Staffing around the time of summer 2020, where Black Lives Matter, where George Floyd happened. And it was really interesting because I was entering the corporate workplace. I went to a really wealthy private school in Los Angeles. And I went to the University of Virginia. So I survived two PWIs which means predominantly White institutions. So I thought I had not seen it all, but I thought I had maybe experienced those experiences of bias and understood it a little bit more. But when I went to the corporate workplace and the diversity inclusion campaigns were happening, it was just really confusing because it's hard specifically for engineering and product specifically because it's so new that there is a really, really hard time to find diverse talent. That's why I honestly believe that it's just really trying to educate underrepresented communities to understanding all of the different diverse types of roles and opportunities that you can encounter in the tech industry so, for example, like UX, UX design, UX research, data science, machine learning, all of that. So I think I was more contacted or maybe was engaged in business development companies who were looking for me to do diversity which I think it kind of...and I am such a huge proponent for diversity. But it also kind of had my heart drop a little bit because I just felt like people were contacting me because of who I am instead of just thinking like if it was just any other agency, would I be contacted specifically for that? It was more just for exclusive searches, which can be very, very hard for products and engineering. I think in diversity and inclusion, we really need to focus on different departments and the different problems that underrepresented communities encounter with different departments. So it was just really hard, but in terms of companies contacting me because I am a woman of color owning an agency, no, that didn't really...and it's never really helped. I do wear it as a badge of honor because, like I said, I started out with nothing. So to start out with nothing and have to fight through everything to sit at the table and create something is amazing. My background didn't really help me. It was really just me, just constantly contacting people. And I was prepared for this because, in my entrepreneurship minor, they said, "You're going to encounter a lot of nos," and so I did. I encountered so many nos, but eventually, I was able to turn those nos into yeses. So now that I turned some of those nos into yeses...and I'm still encountering nos, but I still keep going and still building and building. And now I do feel a sense of pride now two years later where it is like, wow, I really did have to fight through to make it, and that's where I hold just a huge sense of pride. But no, it was not my background that really...the only thing that my background was maybe appealing was thinking like, oh, okay, I think you can do diversity and inclusion, which I don't want to be profiled in that way. I just want to be a founder who happens to be a Black woman instead of a Black woman founder. And so, I don't want to be contacted to feel like my race is a part of it. And that was interesting in the corporate workplace, especially when I was trying to navigate different, you know, how to speak, how to build rapport, or how to navigate corporate workplace conversations. And that's very hard to do with diversity and inclusion because you're fighting with, like, that's racism and misogyny. That's something really deep-rooted, and that has been here for years and years. So it's a really heavy, heavy topic. And that's not some really, really heavy topic that you really want to bring or a lot of people don't really want to bring into the workplace. So that was just hard to encounter. But overall, I so, so support diversity and inclusion. And the cool part is because I have this awareness and I know that diverse teams are better teams, whenever I'm sourcing, or one of my recruiters is sourcing, I'm just making sure that they have that in the front of their mind, and they're just trying to diversify their candidate pipeline as much as possible. CHAD: Well, taking it from the candidate side of things, I, unfortunately, I'm of the belief that the hiring process is really ripe for extreme, subtle unconscious biases or conscious ones even to have an impact on the hiring process. So, how have you navigated that on the candidate side? I'm sure you don't want to say anything negative about any of your clients. It's not about, oh, this company is racist. But I think do you agree with the premise that the hiring process at a lot of companies is ripe for some bias to creep in? ANNA: Of course. I mean, all of the time. And the part that's so, I would say, scary about it is that bias is something that you feel. It's not really tangible. You can't really grab it. I mean, it can be in writing, and [laughs] there has been stuff in writing. But it's very much kind of yeah; it's non-tangible. So it's hard to really call it out specifically of like, hmm, this candidate I don't know why all of a sudden nice to haves become must-haves. Why is there a shift? Like I said, there are different problems with different departments, but there are also different problems in terms of leveling systems, so leadership roles versus individual contributor roles. There can be a little bit more, you know, maybe there's a little bit more openness on the IC side, but with leadership, it can get a little interesting sometimes. But the hard part is it's not really tangible. So I really have to give it to diversity like DEI specialists because to have to navigate those conversations and really articulate a non-tangible thing is so, so complicated. So there are tangible things you can do, like having a diverse panel. But what happens if the company doesn't even have the numbers for diversity to have that diverse panel in the first place? So it can get really complicated in terms of trying to navigate the bias within the interview process, and we do try to do our best there, just trying to provide on our side because that's all we can do. It's really up to the companies in terms of their interview processes and how they are going to change it or maintain some stages. But for us, we're just trying to just submit diverse talent and really just try to provide that white-glove service for them and hope that that bias doesn't seep in. But like I said, it's such a heavy topic. And like I said, with corporate workplace politics, it can be so fragile and really interesting. So it's just hard to really take that and understand where it comes from or being able to even verbalize it. So that's where it gets really interesting. And so, I do hope that in the future, interview processes are changed where there is able to be a diverse panel, or there is a way to really be able to understand that bias. Because like I said, it's very complicated. And we don't want to claim that any company is specifically racist, but it's just understanding bias and maybe why there's a difference for one candidate versus another candidate, which can be really interesting. CHAD: I think the first part is recognizing that everybody has biases, and it could be anything. It could be, well, what happens when you come across a resume of someone that went to the same school that you did? What happens to that resume, then? And does that subtly influence how you review that resume? It has nothing to do with their race or the color of their skin or anything. So those biases can creep in, and you need to decide as a company is this something that actually matters to success at the company? Is this something that we want to be using when we make hiring decisions about who gets that first interview or who continues on in the interview process? For us, we've decided it's not, so we have a completely anonymous screening process where we don't even show the names of schools. We don't show the names of the companies that you worked at previously. We only show the positions that you held at those companies because we've decided that whether you have a degree or not doesn't matter, and the companies that you worked at previously don't matter. It's what you were actually able to do with that experience. ANNA: Oh yeah. I think that's actually amazing. That's a really great way of doing it. I always just try to tell hiring managers also to just open that candidate pipeline as much as possible because the number one way to really understand someone isn't really through just a piece of paper. Yes, we want to make sure that the resume is at least a bit aligned. And they have, if it's an engineering role, for example, the right tech stack or maybe the right technologies or the right kind of projects that they've worked on. But other than that, you'll be so amazed what can happen when people just hop on a call with each other. You can really find just that hidden genius in people. So usually, when it comes to just diversity, it's like just hopping on a quick call with someone, anybody. Like you said, there are so many biases, but just being able to talk to them and see them as a human being can really just surprise you and surprise everybody. So really just, I always say just find that hidden genius through engaging with someone. CHAD: Yeah. So you've mentioned time to hire is a really important thing moving quickly in today's market when candidates have a lot of opportunity. What are some other ways, either trends or things that are happening in the market or things that you see changing? ANNA: Well, honey, I'm sure, as you know, there's been a huge amount of layoffs that have happened. Like, recently, about 17,000 workers were laid off from more than 70 tech startups globally in May, and that's been about a 350% jump from April. So I will say it's just due to inflation as well as just the slowing of demand. Startups right now are just really trying to just cut corners and just really trying to just hone in on their runway and their burn rate. CHAD: Are the candidates that are being laid off finding new work quickly? ANNA: I'm not sure because it depends on the departments. We're working with engineering mostly in product. So it's really funny because as we are tracking the layoffs, we will contact candidates to see if they're interested in another opportunity. Because fortunately, for our client list, we haven't had anyone have a massive amount of layoffs which has been...we're so happy about that, fortunately. But we've actually contacted engineers. And it's amazing how strong the engineering department is. It does not seem like they really are...that's not a department where there's like significant layoffs because they just have to uphold that platform. So yeah, so it still is in terms of engineering surprising with all these layoffs. It still is just very much competitive because even the people who have or the companies that have encountered a large amount of layoffs those engineers are still wanting to stay or don't...there are some that may feel the need to depart at a certain point. But for the most part, they are staying. But in terms of how quickly, I'm not entirely sure in terms of for people that are laid off how quickly they are being hired because this is also within early-stage startups or not early-stage; they also have Fortune 500s too. But yeah, I'm not sure about that part. But in terms of engineering specifically, the jobs are still just growing. The projected growth rate for software engineers is like 22%, and data scientists is 22%, as well as web developers is 13%. So fortunately for us, as an agency who primarily specializes in engineering, there hasn't been a huge difference. But like I said, specifically with engineering, that time to hire is still super important because these candidates are still encountering offers quickly. And it's just a way to be competitive because if you're just the first offer, you're the first offer in their face instead of, let's say, they have two offers from another company and you're like at the last offer. It's such a big difference there. CHAD: Are you seeing a lot of remote positions versus in-person positions? ANNA: Yes, remote is still going strong. I have seen that now there is a little bit of a trend of some startups or companies where you know because I research companies every day...I'll go on Crunchbase, Morning Brew, VentureBeat, TechCrunch, Built-In. I'll go on all of the websites, and I'm seeing who got a fresh new round of funding or who's highly growing, or any new products that companies are offering. CHAD: You're seeing some companies say that they're hiring hybrid or in person. ANNA: I am seeing that on startups and companies' career pages, once they've acquired a new round of funding or they're scaling, that on the job boards, you'll start seeing only the headquarters, so just San Francisco or just maybe Boston instead of remote. So it's been a little bit more of a quiet transition because I remember when bigger companies were announcing it like, oh, we're going to transition in the office in February of 2022 or December of 2021, then there would all of a sudden be a mass exodus of people who were seeking remote opportunities. But I do still feel that remote is still going strong, especially for high-growth startups, you know, yeah, still going strong. There is the option of hybrid. With these engineers that do have these choices, 100% remote is really becoming a great selling point. I mean, I don't even know if it's really a selling point but just standard now. CHAD: So that's what you're hearing from candidates. Candidates want that. ANNA: Definitely, candidates want. There's been plenty of candidates that we've interviewed where they've said in terms of their...because we'll ask them what would be their motivation for considering other opportunities and potentially leaving, and then they'll say, "X company is anticipating us to transition into the office, and I just don't want to do that." Their commute may be an hour, and that can be two even maybe three hours out of your day where you're spending your morning driving and then spending your evening driving. So people just prefer to be remote. Or people are located now in the Midwest. They're going back to their hometowns where they're able to instead of like these big metropolitan cities where now it's really hard to afford a house, so they're going back home and being able to enjoy their family there. So definitely it is a standard and people are really interested in it. And for companies that are having employees transition back into the office, we've consistently heard that there's just a mass exodus of people leaving. CHAD: What have you seen compensation do over the last year-plus? ANNA: I would say for compensation, I mean, in my personal opinion, when it was super competitive, it was definitely increasing. Now I feel like we're working with a Fortune 500 company, so compensation hasn't really been too, too much of a problem. So yeah, it hasn't been as competitive. But I do remember when it was maybe around Q1 and Q2 2021 where there was almost this great rehire. And everybody was scaling, and demand was soaring where the salaries were just like, it just increased or were just consistently increasing. We were just so shocked at what some software engineers were making. But now, it seems to have potentially tamed a little bit. It's not as high as it probably used to be because we were working with that series B Company and their salaries were pretty good, pretty competitive. But all of a sudden, with the demand soaring and these engineers, it started getting even more competitive. Then that's when all of a sudden, you know, the first few placements were fine. And then, all of a sudden, each candidate, like I said, they would say they were passively looking and then the next week... And this startup their time to hire was actually really great. But even with this competitive market, it was still hard because, like I said, a week later, they would already have an offer. And their salary would probably increase like 20,000-30,000 from their initial target base that they were seeking to now what they were being hired from other companies. So it would definitely increase. But I haven't seen that recently as much. CHAD: Yeah. I think also the trend to remote changed compensation, too, because it leveled it out. There were people who if you were trying to find a job in Kansas and you were going in an office, that market is very different than the U.S.-wide hiring market. But now, candidates are on the U.S.-wide hiring market. And I think that that brought up the lower end of salaries. ANNA: Oh yes. Because at first, it was like okay, we can look for...it was 100% remote, which was great, and so they were like, we can look for people in the Midwest. But during that time, companies were paying San Francisco and New York salaries, and they were offering those salaries to people who were located in Kansas and Iowa. So you would have engineers who were deep, deep in the Midwest who were asking for in terms of target for those metropolitan city salary budgets. And they would get it, which I think is great as well, just they are doing the same work as someone who is located in San Francisco or in New York but maybe with less overhead, of course. But it definitely was a little bit more of a challenge. And you can no longer assume that somebody located in the Midwest that may have lower salary bands aren't at those metropolitan city salary budgets now. CHAD: Anna, thanks much for stopping by and sharing with us. I really I'm impressed by what you've accomplished so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to be able to do in the future. ANNA: Thank you. Thank you so much, again, for inviting me. I had a great time speaking with you, and it was so interesting hearing about your time being a consultancy. Because I know being an external vendor, it's really interesting interacting with clients when you're not internal. So that was really interesting hearing about the difference of clients that you're encountering at first versus now. CHAD: Yeah. If folks want to get in touch with Techie Staffing or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that? ANNA: So in terms of contacting me, I'll say the best way would be either our website so www.techiestaffing.com. Or you can contact me on LinkedIn; my name is Anna Spearman, A-N-N-A S-P-E-A-R-M-A-N. I'm always active on LinkedIn. So if you're seeking a new opportunity either on the candidate side or either meeting, help and engaging Techie Staffing as a scaling company to fill your engineering, design, UX, and product roles, you can contact me on LinkedIn as well as filling out the forms on the Techie Staffing website. And we also are on Twitter @StaffingTechie. So definitely contact us, and we'd be happy to hear from you. CHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Anna Spearman.

INTRODUCTION:Entwine was developed by Anna, a breast cancer survivor, for people with a low sex drive, celibates, and those who avoid sex due to physical pain.Because of her treatment, sex became uncomfortable both physically and emotionally. After her divorce, she found it difficult and intimidating to re-enter the dating scene out of fear of rejection from those that may not understand her situation.  She soon realized that many of the dating apps available had similarities; none of them offered an opportunity to find someone who had similar sexual limitations.She found herself in a space that she soon discovered many others were in – single and looking for companionship.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):·      A Dating App for People with Sexual Dysfunction·      Broken Vaginas·      Surviving Breast Cancer·      Erectile Dysfunction·      The Struggles of Starting an App·      Self Esteem Related to Sexual Limitations·      Sexual Implications for Veterans·      The Value Men Place on Sexual Performance·      Reassessing Our Value Systems CONNECT WITH ANNA: Website: https://www.entwinedating.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/entwinedatingIG: https://www.instagram.com/entwine_dating/Twitter: https://twitter.com/entwinedatingYouTube: https://bit.ly/3J552FzLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3uqBdLk  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com ·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org ·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?:·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon TRANSCRIPT:[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello hello. Hello everyone. And welcome to another installment of the sex, drugs and Jesus podcast. I'm your host. De'Vannon Hubert. And I am so thankful that you are with me again on today. So on today's episode, I'm talking with a woman by the name of Anna Leonarda. She's a breast cancer survivor, and she's gifted the world with a dating app called Entwine that's E N T W I N E. Now this app is for those who may not be able to, or prefer not to fully engage in sexual intercourse.[00:01:00] Now we all know what a big deal sexual dysfunction is in the world today. You know, sometimes our bodies just don't do what we want them to do. Now, in this episode, we're going to talk about. Sexual implications for veterans, we're talking about how self-esteem can be related to sexual limitations. And we're also going to cover things like the value men and place on sexual performance, which is a huge deal in and of itself.Pay close attention to this episode, stay tuned because I think you're going to get a lot out of it.Anna uh, you bad-ass bitch shoe. Are you today? Anna: Perfect. How are you doingDe'Vannon: I'm fam fucking tastic. My new year is off to a phenomenal fucking start. My health is great. My wealth is great. My mind is great. My cats are great. My boyfriend's great. My gardens. Great. Everything's great. Anna: Great [00:02:00] Great to hear.De'Vannon: So I was looking forward to this here episode because we are going to talk about vaginas in. How they can be broken and everything. And you created a dating app called in twine, which we're going to really get into. And of course, all of this information will be in the show we notes as they always are. You created an app specifically centered for people who have a sexual dysfunction. Be it, be it men with erectile dysfunction women with, as you coin, it broke vaginas. She said that I can say that so she can get away with it. Anna: Yeah.De'Vannon: And so, so it's a really cool app that you've made in a service that you're now offering to the public. But before we go down that delicious path, and we're going to talk about you, you, you, you, you, and what led you to this here. And so any opening words you have for the world. Anna: Just [00:03:00] get ready for my broken vagina story. definitely unique.De'Vannon: So I say, well, wait, so we've got to work in, reverse it for a little bit. So I read about when I was researching you or read that you had you're a breast cancer survivor. Anna: Yes.De'Vannon: So I want you to talk to me about what the emotions were like, like, walk me through your emotions. When you found out you got this diagnosis, do you remember where you were. Anna: Yeah, I was actually, well, when I found the breast lump, I was in the shower. I was 36 years old and I just, right prior to that, I lost like 18 pounds willingly. So I was like, finally, I look, this is the weight I want to be at. I feel great. I look great. I felt confident for a change. And so then I was in the shower and I happened to have a bar soap in my hand.And I was, I happened to cross off a lump on my breast and I thought, well, this is weird. It's never been there before, but I mean, because I lost my weight, that's where I found it, but that's why I found it. And and [00:04:00] I was just like, well, it's probably nothing. And I worked at, in the pathology department at, at the time as a secretary.So I thought, well, you know, most people that come in there, they're older that get diagnosed with breast cancer or any kind of cancer. So. The next day I got went to the gynecologist and just a couple of months prior to that, she was telling me I needed to get a mammogram. She's like, you know, you're 30, 30, 6 now.You need to start thinking about getting a mammogram and mats. I don't need to do that. I'm too young. So so when I went to her, she was like, well, yeah, it feels like a lump is probably nothing, but so long story short, I ended up getting the biopsy and and I had to wait a whole seven days for the results and was psychotic.I mean, I kind of had an idea of something was up because the people that I'm friends with in the pathology department were like, are you doing okay, honey? I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. Why? Well, you know, w just wondering, and, and so it was a lot of emotions coming through. Cause I was like, wait, is something wrong with me?Cause why are there being so sweet to me now? You know? So [00:05:00] it was a lot of paranoia going on too. Isn't it? That, well, maybe I do have cancer. And and one of my friends is like, you know, you need to call your doctor. It's just, these results are not good because she couldn't give me the results because you just knew I was like freaking out.And so yeah, I had breast cancer. I was like, whoa. I mean, it was on my mom's 60th birthday. I was at her house celebrating her birthday. And I didn't tell her that I even had a biopsy. Cause I thought, man, it's nothing. Anyway. So yeah, it was a little, little shocking. And then I ended up getting ended up having actually three tumors in my left breast, which was just like, I had no idea I had cancer.I thought I felt great. I looked great. I didn't feel sick. You know, I didn't look sick. And so it's definitely very life-changingDe'Vannon: Was there a family history there of the Panther or. Anna: but my one cousin had it when she was in her thirties, but that's it like, there was like, no, no cancer at all that I know of in my family. Lucky me. Yay. [00:06:00]De'Vannon: Well, all things happened. Where were you the Monday? How were you able to, so you said you're cancer-free as of today. Anna: Yes. Nine years.De'Vannon: So how were you able to overcome that? Anna: Well, I had to have multiple surgeries and six, six surgeries to be exact with mastectomies, double mastectomy, and then also reconstruction surgery. And my cancer was fed by estrogen. So the goal is to get all the estrogen out of my body, which can cause low sex drive. And so I had to go through chemotherapy.I lost all my hair and and then, because I wanted to get rid of all my estrogen, I decide to have a total hysterectomy as well. So, so I was forced into menopause at a young age. So a little was a little hard on my body, but but I managed to where the chemo wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, which was helpful because I had two young kids at the time and I still wanted to be a mom.I didn't want to. To suffer and or show anybody that I was [00:07:00] struggling. I felt like I was supporting everybody else around me or reassuring them because they're crying all around me. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I'm so sad for you. And so I'm like, no, it's okay. I'll be all right. I'm patting him on the shoulder and I'm like, wait a minute.I'm supposed to be comforting me. But so I was pretty strong through the whole thing. I don't think I've ever really dealt with my emotions with with all the cancer stuff that I had to go through, but, but it, but I went through, I was determined to beat it. I wanted to be there for my kids. And here I am.SoDe'Vannon: Well, congratulations, bitch. Anna: thank you.De'Vannon: I'm glad to have you here now. Okay. So you mentioned that your cancer that you.used to have was fed by estrogen. So in order to defeat that It caused you to have a low sex drive. Once the cancer was gone, that your sex drive.Anna: It didn't. So I actually lost my second. I actually never really had a sex drive, to be honest with you. So when I, when I grew up, I had something called [00:08:00] endometriosis and that causes painful intercourse, which eventually led to lack of libido. And then so I have always struggled with low beetle. So the chemo and the treatment, everything made it even worse.Cause there was more, even more pain and, and dryness involved.De'Vannon: Okay. Anna: my, vagina broke before my chemo, before my cancer,De'Vannon: Right. So, cause when I was research and you are read that something happened after you had your second child in what do you think it, do you think it was a stress of the pregnancy that kind of like pushed your body over the edge or. Anna: as far as the, the broken vagina thing or the the cancer.De'Vannon: Well, no, as far as the broken vagina thing, like what happened after you had the second child? Because I was reading about it in your blog, you were saying like you had your second child, like something changed like in your body. Was it, did it everything become more painful then, or. Anna: It was always painful. So I [00:09:00] think with the endometriosis, it, it was always, since it was always painful over time, my vagina was just like, get the hell away from me, whatever it's coming at me. So, so I ended up trying, I was trying to have intercourse with my, my ex-husband and and it was like, nothing would go in there.It was like, it was like hitting a wall. I'm like, what the heck is going on with me? So I went to the doctor and she said well, you have vaginismus. And I'm like, what the heck is that? And she's like, well, you're the opening of your vagina is it's just as fascinating mean because it's probably just anticipating the pain that it's just.It's it's that's this natural reaction is to just kind of spasm up and not allow anything to, to enter there. And so I was supposed to go through physical therapy or pelvic floor therapy, and that involved, like using these dilators where I had to slowly stretch the vaginal opening, which is a long process and not, not pleasurable for sure. And it's like, the size of the pinky is the first [00:10:00] side of the dilator. And then once you're comfortable with that, then you move up to the next size and then you just keep graduating to the largest size, which has Godzilla, which I would never use because it's like, I don't want to size, it was just enormous.I didn't know how to explain it. So I just call it Godzilla size. So I just put that in the drawer way in the back. We've covered up. So, so I asked the therapist, why does this happen? And she said, well, it's your body's natural reaction because what's happening is if somebody comes up to you repeatedly and starts punching you in the stomach, once that person approaches you, you're going to start flinching and your muscles are going to tighten.And you're going to kind of back up to avoid that pain. Vince is patient of the pain. So she's so I said, so basically my vagina broke. So that's the easy way of saying it has my vagina broke. So yeah, so that's what I was doing. Those, those, I did the treatments for a little bit. And then again, it was just like very, it was a very slow process.So there's a cure for it. I just chose not to do it. And then when I got breast cancer, I didn't even want to think about using my dilators. My oncologist is like, [00:11:00] well, this is estrogen fed. Your libido is going to be non-existent for a while. I'm like, well, it already is. I mean, I don't even know how much, how much more, how much more possible is it going to be worse, but it was, it got even more dry and.De'Vannon: How did that cause. and.when all of this was going on. Anna: Yeah, I met my ex-husband when I was in eighth grade. And then, so he was my one and only, and I was, we were married for 20 years. We got divorced three years ago.De'Vannon: So how did, can you talk to me about the sort of stress that this caused in your marriage when you were going through. Anna: It was, he was patient. I just feel like it was, it was hard for me because I, I just, I felt like I was always making up excuses, like trying to stay up, let him fall asleep first. So I had to avoid it. So I, that probably didn't help the marriage at all. And eventually, you know, the level of intimacy kind of diminished in all ways, [00:12:00] because it was just something I always had to deal with.So it was never really said that it was in the back of my head. I feel like that's one of the reasons why definitely that you kind of. Distance distance ourselves. But so yeah, it definitely takes a toll.De'Vannon: So you're so it's a, you were saying like, okay, so intercourse is painful. Anything that you would certainty your vagina hurt? So I was reading where even a tampon, trying to put a tampon in there is like, was like super, super painful. So this is this pain exclusive to anything penetrating the vagina or what about that?Anna: trulyDe'Vannon: And external stimulation does that hurt too with these medical conditions? Anna: after the, I guess it's not as enjoyable, enjoyable as it probably should be, but after all my surgeries, it's more like just, I'd rather not [00:13:00] any kind of contact right now or ever, I guess I should say so. It's, it's just very sensitive and not in a good way. So.De'Vannon: Interesting. Okay. So. Then this, so we can shift gears from here and to entwine. So.I want you to tell us what your motivation was for creating this, this, this dating app. And this is spelled E N T w I N E. And also want to know what this name means and how you came up with that. Anna: Sure. As far as the name of why I called it in twine, I was going to call it, going to call it comfortable companions. And I was told by many that, that sounds like diapers. So don't do that. I'm like, oh my God, I guess it's probably hard to remember comfortable companions though. So so the, the app developers I did use, they ended up giving me a bunch of options of what I should use.And then when they set [00:14:00] in twine and I'm like, well, I in twining hearts people's lives together or whatever the heck. So I thought, yeah. And twine sounds good. So it's not a very exciting story. That's why we called it in.De'Vannon: Okay. So Was all the, all your medical conditions and things going on with your body, your motivation for starting this app and like how your marriage into what, tell me in your own words, why you wanted to go through the, the the rigor Moreau, because y'all starting an app. Isn't just as simple as like making like a Gmail account, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's complex as fuck.And it takes a lot of time, money, resources, and dedication. So this is not like it's not just like simple to start an app, especially something like this as a dating app is running algorithms and all of that. Why did you want to go through all of the painstaking tasks that you had to go through to bring this app, this app to fruition?Anna: So when I was married, [00:15:00] my girlfriends would go on traditional dating apps and I would say, Hey, how was your date? And they're like, you know, I mean, every guy in meat so far has ed and rocked all this function. And I was like, how old are they? Well, they're in their thirties or they're in their forties. And I'm like, well, what are the reasons why they have that?And, and they would say like, well, one of them has diabetes and other one might have antidepressants that he's taking or prostate surgery or whatever the reason is. And and I thought, well, why don't you save their numbers so that when I'm, if I'm ever divorced, you know, I'll go, I'll date them.Because if I, I thought to myself, if ever, if I'm ever single, I'd rather either just be single forever, because I thought to have to have that stress of wondering, you know, if that person could understand that I don't want to have intercourse. So I'm like, I'll just either stay single or I'd rather deal with guy with ed.So I'm like, there should be like a. Dating app for guys with EDD. And then I remember talking about it and then I'd let, let left it alone. Dropped it. And then I don't know, eight years later, that's when I got divorced and I thought [00:16:00] again, I'm like, I think I'm going to be single. I don't want to be with anybody.No, one's going to understand this. They're going to cheat on me. They're to they're not, they're not going to get it. And so then I thought, well, that's not fair for what the heck. I I've been through all this stuff for, there's a reason why I went through all this. And the reason I thought at first was to help people go and tell my friends, if you know anybody that's going through a cancer scare has breast cancer, whatever it is, Kevin can reach out to me.And that's what I would do. I would talk to people I'm like, no, I need to do something more. So I thought, what about these guys that have ed? How many times, you know, are they going to get rejected before they just give up? And so I thought I need to do something about it. So that's why I decided to create a dating app for it.Cause I thought. I want to help more people. It's not just me though that I want to help some, I'm still single. I'm not using the dating app yet, but eventually I will just want to kind of focus on getting the app established and getting more users. But so then I thought, well, I gotta do this. And I was a stay at home mom.I worked part-time as a, at the [00:17:00] time I got diagnosed, I was a secretary at pathology, but then then I was a stay-at-home mom and I also worked part-time as a medical transcriptionist. So I thought I have no business background and my, what am I going to do? How am I going to figure all this out? So I started doing some research and I found an app company that took like extreme advantage of me, meaning they stole a lot of money from me because I didn't know anything about business and they knew it and they wanted they want an equity in my app right away.So I was like, no, I said, I don't know, maybe like, well, we'll give you a discount services. And, and I, you know, it sounded great at the time because I was running out of money. So I used all my savings and and, and I thought, well, they don't want equity because they care about my app. They care about people.They want equity cause they wanna make money. So I decided to tell them, no, I don't want equity. I don't want you to have equity. And then after that, everything went downhill and stupid errors and glitches and oh, you want to fix, you want to put a notification on the envelope, [00:18:00] say you have a match.Okay. That's gonna cost you something like this functionality, you know, it was like stuff like that. So everything went downhill. And so I ended up taking the code and leaving and I was like I said, I'm done. I have no more money. I can't do this anymore. And then I thought this is not, this is not right. I mean, I thought I was going to give up.And but I couldn't cause I'm like this again. Why did I go through all this? It's not because I'm for me to just get taken advantage of and quit. I'm not gonna let anybody take my dream. So so I found another app guy and he was he's great. And he yeah. Took care of it, of the professional of the cost.And, now we're live end of August of last year.De'Vannon: Girl, you think I'm right. You don't let anybody take your dream. It's it's a fucking hassle when you, when you fall into the den of vultures like that, and it happens to all of us it's happened to me. But you know, I would encourage people who were trying to start businesses or apps or whatever, you know, to keep [00:19:00] trying. But you know, now there's websites out there like Upwork free up where you can hire people from all sorts of. Th technological backgrounds. And the beautiful thing is those websites will act as an intermediary and they hold the money. So that, that other person doesn't get paid until the work is done and it's done.Right. And they negotiate everything for you so that you don't have the fuckery, like what you went through and everything like that. I've been through that myself and it can be discouraging. I had issues like that with started my podcast and writing my first book. You know, but you just got to keep on doing it, like, like what you said, but my God, you just want to strangle the people who took advantage of you. Anna: Yeah.Even like I just found out recently, I was looking at, there was these graphics that they created. They said they created. And I remember saying, oh, can you change the graphics a little bit? And they're like, well, they're custom hand drawn graphics. So it's going to take some time off to give you another estimate.[00:20:00]And this was what it's supposed to in 2019. They use them and I just found out from another dating app that just got launched. I was just downloaded it just to look at it. And I found one of my graphics on her app. So like that wasn't custom, they told me it was hand drawn and it wasn't even the stuff like that.I was like, how could someone, how could a company be like that? You know, for me, it's just frustrating. Just I knowDe'Vannon: You got them out there, honey, but you knowwhat? We don't move forward. Anna: that's right. I know I got to stop looking at the past. That's my problem is I keep going back anymore.De'Vannon: You know, it's, it's good too, for the purposes of like, say this interview to talk about that so that other people can know that they are technological solutions and safeguards to this now. So, but yeah, when we were alone and thinking, I fall into that trap too, sometimes of like anger might rise up in me, then I try to, you know, I gotta realign myself and focus on what is working and not let those people [00:21:00] take my joy anymore. Anna: Exactly. I'm tired of people taking my joy. So De'Vannon: Not no more. Anna: that's right.De'Vannon: So so let's get more granular and let's dig into exactly the uniqueness of entwine. Tell me like the typical male person who's going to be on here. Typical female person are there. Trans people and I saw them there. They're like two guys kissing and everything like that. So I know it's LGBTQ plus friendly.So what are like the sex options and all the sexual orientation options that you have. Anna: So, because the app is very basic because of funding. So I had to start off with. then are you interested in male, female or both? So that's what we have for now, but my goal is to have it available for everybody because that's how it should be. And just because of costs, unfortunately, I wasn't able to, to expand on that, but that's my that's one [00:22:00] of my main goals is to do that.De'Vannon: Okay. So then within the. Within the parameters that.you have established, give you an example of the sort of guy who would come on, come on your app and the sort of girl what's it going on in their life? Are you seeing certain income ranges, certain typical occupations? Just, just give me an example of a male or female and female profile. Anna: So since the app ended up launching the end of August, there's not a ton of users. That's probably get into that later where how it's very hard to get a hold of users that are that have sexual limitations. But it's so when. I noticed that the ones that I do have, so they had to put down, if they're male, female, then they still had to say their, their age, their location.Do they smoke? Do they drink? And do they have kids? So it's very basic, but of course down the road, it'll be more more of an algorithm that filter. So And I noticed that the feud that I had signed up, I'm actually friends with them. And [00:23:00] then I'm like, do you have sexual dysfunction? There was one guy that signed up and he's like, no, I don't, but I just, I'm tired of meeting these women that it's all they want.And I'm okay with not having intercourse. I rather, because they think they're okay with other floors and intimacy and they're okay with not having intercourse. I don't say sex cause it could be oral or whatever. So and then the same thing with the women. They're like, I'm just tired of these guys. You know, they're just, that's all they ever do is, you know, that's all they want.And so I have a few women that sign up that they didn't, they don't have that issue and they just did because they, they want something different work, more of that emotional connection rather than the physical. So so it's, it's a variety for now. I don't know that occupations or anything like that yet.Cause it's not in there and they can type as much as they want in the about me sections. They don't have to say what their limitations are until they meet the person. So there's no pressure there because of. I probably mean myself. I tell everybody my vagina's broken, but there might be someone else.They went through sexual trauma. They may not want to put that in that, in that [00:24:00] description.De'Vannon: So then it sounds like not, oh, intimacy is off the table. So it sounded like people who are sexually able can go on here. They are open-minded to being with people who are not sexually. Abel. And then even within the realms of both, they might be other things they can get into Anna: Right.De'Vannon: exactly what sex is, not the sin, sin, sin, central focus. Anna: Exactly.De'Vannon: So what, so there was a statement that I read that you wrote in and said that no one really thinks about people that can't, that can't have intercourse. Can you, and I feel like that that's a, that's a huge motivating factor into why that, that did you create this app in order to create an inclusive space For people who have sexual dysfunction? So can you walk me through some of like the emotions that maybe you and people, you know, who are, who are suffering from sexual dysfunction, this [00:25:00] isolation that it seems like you talk about because it almost seems like there's a feeling of being discarded or are devalued here.Anna: For example, when I I'm in a couple of erectile dysfunction, Facebook support groups, and there'll be men on there and there. I don't know why I'm living anymore. I'm going to be single forever. No, one's going to accept me for my issue. And I'm like, I don't want to, I want to jump on there and be like, no, don't think that there's people out there like women like myself that don't mind if you have a broken Dick.I mean, I guess I could say that, right. Because I have a broken vagina. Right. De'Vannon: You can say anything you. want, girl, they all. Anna: So I can't really comment because I don't want to get kicked out of the cause they say, oh, you're promoting your abalone, my ups free, but, okay. So, and they don't know that they're, that they have these options and, and then there's all these women that have the same thing where there are in my breast cancer group.So the vaginismus groups, it was like 17,000 women in the vaginismus groups. And like how many people have a broken vagina that couldn't believe it? [00:26:00] And the ones that are saying like I'm just going to stay with my husband because. No one else is going to want to be with me. I can't have sex and throw in like an abusive relationship and they don't, they don't want to go anywhere else.And and guys that cheat and say rude things to them. And, and I thought, that's, this is why my app has made. And, and then I started hearing some cruel comments myself, and it made me think like this, this app is needed because the regular traditional dating apps don't think about, they don't cater to people that have sexual limitations.That's like a given it's like, okay, after the third, fourth date, we're probably going to have sex. And imagine that pressure of a guy or a girl, it's a think like, when am I going to tell this person that I can have intercourse? You know, are they going to make fun of me? Are they going to reject me my own?Be embarrassed. That's a lot of pressure. And, and for me, I, I did this right away. So if I started meeting I started since I started, since I got divorced, I started going out more and I started meeting men and. [00:27:00] Hey, you have kind of your number you want to go to for dinner. I'm like, well, let me tell you about the dating app I created.And then I started telling him about my issue and the variety of answers are pretty insensitive. So it just, again, confirms that there needs to be something like in twine to be like a safe, comfortable spot for people that have these limitations to find companionship. But when I told this guys this, but my broken vagina though, like w w a few of, several of them said well, you have other holes do like anal.I'm like, well, first of all, I don't even know you for you to even ask me that is just for going rude. But, and I said, you have other holes. It's like, really that's really classy. And also and our, I hear like, well, you know, the perfect reason why a guy wouldn't want to be with you. It was a good one, too, you know?And you have, you should never get married. You should never have a boyfriend because you'll never make them happy because you can't have sex. I'm like, it's just horrible. [00:28:00] But it's been for me, I I'm strong enough to handle it. I wasn't like crying, but eventually like a sensitive woman that just got sexually assaulted and then she knows or whatever, however, history of it.And then she hears that. I mean, that's horrible to, you may not never want to go on the dating scene again. At least I wouldn't have, you know, but I'm just prepared to you're thinking really hard. I could see it. I could hear it. I could see the wheels spinning.De'Vannon: Well, yeah. You're giving me a lot to think about, and I'm absolutely feasting on this, on this knowledge over here, there's so much. So much pain and what you're talking about in so much rejection and so much fear of rejection, and nobody deserves to live like that. It's, it's reminding me of when I first contracted HIV and hepatitis a B, and I was thinking the same thing, like, okay, who was going to want to be with me now? At what point do I tell them this? You know, how does this go? And, you know, you see now, [00:29:00] like on the, on the dating apps now, especially the gay dating apps you can put on there, whether or not you're HIV positive undetectable already. So, but at first it was, I liked that, but, you know, and you had to determine a point, but now you can put it on there.And so, you know, anybody who responds back to you or who reaches out to you as you know, that they're okay with that. But I understand what it's like to have that fear of, okay. Are they gonna want to keep me around after I tell them this is a weakness about me, you know, or not. And so You know, some people are like totally cool with dating someone who has HIV and some people want to head for the Hills and everything like that. And, and it sounds like it's the same thing that's going on in the sexual dysfunction world. Now I want to say, fuck you to all the assholes out there, like the people who were taught, who, who, who were talking to you and yet, you know, women do have other holes, but there is a class that your way to, to bring up because, you know, on the one hand, you know, if you're talking about sexual [00:30:00]dysfunction, the holes that can not be used, that conversation is on the table.And so yes, assholes can be asked about, but it could be done, you know, a little bit more class or something like that. You know, it like, Anna: Moved down the road and be like on the fourth day maybe or something that I didn't even go on a date yet. I was already asking about my whole holes.De'Vannon: That's a smooth question. Like, you know, lo Hey, well, what else might you be interested in? And, you know, and then just let you answer it. And if they're answered it and come up with, then they can assume that this is off limits. Anna: would be nicer, but yeah, and my girlfriends they're like, why don't you, why don't you wait to tell the guy that you have your broken vagina issue? And I said, well, why so I can just like, get emotionally attached because I get, I seem to get more emotionally attached to anything. Cause it's, it's I don't want to wait until I'm like four dates in and then all of a sudden I'd be like, oh, I really liked this guy.Oh, by the way, I have the sister. And then, then he says, oh, you have other holes. I'll be like, I couldn't, I kind of handle that. But if there's no emotional connection yet or attachment, [00:31:00]then I'd rather them know then and have to have them make a decision right at the time. Cause we usually, when I think, well, 99% of them that I did talk to they're like we never went on a date actually.I'd never been on a date. So since I've been divorced cause. Seeing the find the guy that is just like, I'm not, I mean, looking though I should say, but even if it's just like, I don't want them to convince themselves that they don't need intercourse either, because that's another thing they might do that like, well, I guess I don't need any more.I, you know, I'm going to have a bunch of heavy D myself probably, you know? So I think no don't convince yourself because then in the back of my head, it's going to be like, either I need to fix my vaginismus, it's treatable, but I don't want to fix it for me. I'd rather fix it for myself and somebody else.So it's a.De'Vannon: Well open relationships with something that I don't think It should be off the table, really like ever, but especially, [00:32:00] you know, in this sort of situation, because like, like an open relationships, you know, if, if you have like two people who are in a couple and they allow each other to have sexual experiences with other people, given whatever their rules and boundaries might be, it oftentimes doesn't include any sort of emotional exchange with whoever the extra people are going to be.And so I could see that. And I'm curious what your, what your opinion is you know, on this. So if you have say like one person who is sick, that's able to have sex in other one, who's not really, really enjoyed each other's company and companionship about letting the person who can have sex, maybe have that sex with someone else, you know, but actually building like your core life with, you know, the one person who can have sex in the one person who can not, what are your thoughts on that?Anna: I think for me, that's I wouldn't be able to handle it. I know there's, there's a lot of individuals that can do that, but I feel like if somebody's [00:33:00] intimate like that, having sex, that there's gotta be some kind of connection there or some kind of emotional connection in my head. But like if I was with somebody now, that's just like, like if I, for my, for my ex husband, I just said, well, you can't have sex with me.So go somewhere else and get somewhere else. I was still like, that would really bother me. And so I want to be able to handle that, but I'm sure there's couples out there. There are people out there that would be okay with it. But for me, it's just something that I want to be able to, to live with.De'Vannon: Right. It is about being true to yourself. And I agree with.every sexual exchange, there is some level of mental, spiritual, and emotional transacting that does happen. You know, so it's just about what, what works for you and what doesn't. I just wanted to put that out there as a possible option. Now I wanted to talk about the self-esteem issues that I'm picking up on here and that I'm hearing in what you're saying, because you've mentioned like, some people are, who have sexual dysfunction are in [00:34:00] abusive relationships with people who are able to have sex.And so you think that people are maybe staying in this abusive situation because of low self-esteem. What, what, what sort of self-esteem issues have you seen. Anna: Well, I think there was the woman. I did talk to that. Her neighbor actually. So I haven't talked to that to a woman, but she said I talked about my app and she's like, you know, my neighbor, she's her, husband's mostly abusive. And she had breast cancer and she's like button hysterectomy. And she had chemotherapy, all that stuff that I had.And, and she's like, and I said, well, why is she in the relationship? Then? She said, well, she said, she's, she's afraid to be alone. And she said that no guy is going to want to be with her because of all of her scars. And because she doesn't want to have sex, she's never going to find anybody like, so she's just going to stay married.And, and she's like, well, that's what she said. I'm like, well, tell her about my app because that's another thing too. I want to reach all these people that are married, that, or are in a relationship. To know that it's [00:35:00] you're, you, you probably won't be alone. You'd just rather to be alone anyway, then in an abusive relationship.But but when they have all these surgeries and on scars and everything, and not like I told them, I said, man, I don't have any nipples, you know? So that might freak a guy out if you saw that, you know? But and I didn't know that even the mastectomy had nipples removed too as well. So it can be heavily promoted, I should say.But, so that's why the most, the low self esteem, they just, they don't have that courage to leave their partner or even enter the dating scene because they have these, these scars or these sexual limitations. That's why I think a twine will help them because they don't, people seem to be more understanding.I think when they're on this app, because they know right away that the intercourse or sex is not this off the table or can be off the table.De'Vannon: So how many people do you have signed up total on there now? Anna: Seventy-five I know it's not the money. That's, that's, that's where my problem is, is getting the word out [00:36:00] because the majority of the users are female. Cause I think like the guys don't really want to talk about it. If they're more embarrassed about it and women are a little bit more vocal about it. I think if there's only like a few support groups for men with ed and there's all these women's issues and for breast cancer groups, vaginismus groups, there's other types of sexual dysfunction in women, that groups for that.But and then if I put like on Facebook, I'll put 'em on my personal page, like please share my app upon entwined. No, no guys like, like my posts, nobody wants to be associated with it because it's going to be like, well, that means that I have ed. I don't want anybody to know that. So we're thinking that.So we're getting the word out is pretty, pretty difficult, but it's available in the U S right now only my goal is to have it available worldwide. And I actually had a few different countries reach out to me, UK, Canada Pakistan, and even India. They, [00:37:00] they messaged me separately and like, why is your app only available in the us, please make it available in our country.We need this to, and, and it's, it's needed worldwide. There's estimated it's going to be 300 to 320 million men in the world are going to have ed by 20, 24. I think the statistics were it's a lot of men, so there's like 30 million men right now in the U S that have ed. So like, we're all these, all these, all these men that are single, these need to hear about and fine.Cause there's, there's even veterans that I was researching. Veterans, I kind of go off, I think about something and I start talking about something else, but these, these veterans there, they have PTSD possibly, or maybe they have depression and they're on these, these antidepressant meds. Or maybe they, they lost limbs during combat genitals, even, you know?So I thought, what about these individuals? How do they find companionship? [00:38:00] And then I started seeing that, you know, there is this high suicide rate for veterans and some of them, there's not an exact percentage, but they were just in, at their counselor's office during therapy and talking about how they're very alone and they don't know what to do.And they ended up committing suicide. So it was like, I want to save everybody. I want to see the veterans. I want to save cancer patients, even people that are not cancer patients, you know, it's just, it's, it's needed in all these different areas. Diabetic clinics. I mean, I didn't realize diabetes caused causes ed too, you know, so it's just a matter of reaching everybody.And it's just me trying to do this with social media marketing, everything I'm doing on my own. So it's a little slow process, but De'Vannon: Well,Anna: there.De'Vannon: well, as the Lord says in the Hebrew Bible says despise, not the day of small beginnings. And so, you know, every app had to start with an idea and with that first, first two signed up. So there's no shame. And [00:39:00] just having 75 people, you know, 75 today, a hundred thousand tomorrow, you know, the thing in business is to stay consistent time and pressure, you know, are two things. Anna: zero before, so somebody five minute, every, every week I'm like, oh, I got another user. I got another user and I get all excited De'Vannon: But yeah, I heard, I heard high blood pressure. You can call it the right time. Can calls, towel, dysfunction. There's all kinds of medications and diseases out there. For veterans though. Yeah. I'm, you know, me being a veteran myself, you know, guys. It's just a lot of stress and you come out of the military and even when you're in the military and stress can cause erectile dysfunction.There's so many things, you know, but you know, the, the, the, I recommend for you to reach out to the disabled the DAV disabled American veterans, and because that's a good association that helps veterans and all sorts of things, they send out, you know, like a monthly magazine, they have a great website, [00:40:00] you know, they may want to post that, re your resource on there and include it in their publications as the American Legion.There's all sorts of like veterans associations that That that, that, that are set up to help. And of course you have mental health clinics in the department of veterans affairs, medical centers worldwide. And so I would work with the DAV if I were you and see how you might, could help their veterans.And then even maybe get this posted in the, in the veterans, hospitals worldwide, and, you know, look into that. Cause the, the veterans health care system is huge. You know, there's veterans, hospitals, and then there's a little mini clinics in cities where there's not enough population to have a big hospital, but mental health just in veterans alone, if.It's like a big deal and a lot of all kinds of dysfunctions play. He goes, honey. And so, and the thing with veterans is there since we tend to be so broken, the, the, [00:41:00] the powers that be are that have to deal with us are always looking for some sort of help. You know, there's plenty of veterans who get prescribed like Viagra and Cialis and all of that and everything like that.And so I think, I think it'd be worth your time to look into going down that route. And then suicide. Yeah. You had, you had said something earlier about like a form you were in the guy who was like, I don't want to live anymore. And everything like that, men attach so much of their value and worth to sexual performance. Y and I know you're not a man, but you know, why do you think that is a, what, what thoughts do you have on that? Because it goes for some, for a guy to be like, you know what? I can't fuck. So I'm just going to kill myself, you know, that's, that's like, that's like kind of a big deal in terms of like how much he thinks to himself based on how hard his Dick can get, what he can do with it.Anna: I often wonder [00:42:00] myself. I mean like, okay, I can't have sex, but I don't want to kill myself. You know, it's just like, I'm just like, eh, whatever. But it's just like, I don't know if just like, just so like, I don't know what the word is. Not even embarrassing, but I mean, I don't know. They just attached to that thing.Huh? So manhood, I don't know. But even like couples that are like the guys that are on the EDI page, like, you know, my. Is understanding, or she's not understanding anymore and she's not, she wants to divorce me now. So when guys and girls, where girls have to, where they're just like, and I don't want to be with the guy with ed, like, so it's, it's hard.It's heartbreaking to see that though. There's there were several posts that I saw guys that are like, you know, I don't, why am I living anymore? And it's, I don't, I never reached out to them to ask them why, but why there was so like, [00:43:00] they just don't want to be alone. I think De'Vannon: They don't want to be alone. And they feel like they feel like no one will have them. If their Dick don't work. Anna: Yes.De'Vannon: Okay. So then what I think this speaks to is our need to, as a, as a, as a society to reevaluate our value system, our personal value system and w and what we will allow and how we accept value from other people.So. Okay. So that means that we gotta be sure that we're assessing our value, not based on what we can do, but just who we are. So that means every day that we wake up, we are incredible and wonderful and loving and deserving of love because that's the way God made us, you know, we're here. So whether we perform fantastically today on whatever the task is, be at work sex, whatever the hell it is that you do, or if you totally suck at it, that doesn't mean that you are a bad person.It just means that you are imperfect, which [00:44:00] is true. And that's something that we just got to get over and accept about ourselves. We're just not going to be able to do everything and do everything as good as we would want to. And then if somebody wants to reject us because of an imperfection, we'll then fuck them.And I don't think that we need to go about the business of being like, I need to fix myself so that people will accept me because that's not living truth. You know, truth is, this is what's going on with me right now. I hope it gets better, but if it doesn't, I'm still going to be all right, because I'm more valuable than these, these physical limitations.I also think it's shortsighted because, you know, we have a spiritual aspect of us and a mental aspect of aspect of us. And when we die and leave this plane of existence, you know, there will be no Dixon vaginas, you know, on the other end, the other spiritual side, you know, these things, don't concern, angels and demons.And so, so I mean, I get, I get you know, somebody values something and they've made a big deal out of it. [00:45:00] I can see when it leaves them. They may not know how to cope with that. So, so, Hmm. So it sounds like then a lot of men may not be seeking mental health treatment to go along with erectile dysfunction.So what do you speak on the, everything I just said in my tirade, just now about the mental, the the, the self valuing aspect of it and the way we receive. Oh, how, how we should reject judgment from other people and then tie in mental health counseling implications to this. Anna: For myself. I didn't really, I didn't go for therapy or mental health counseling. I think like with men, there's actually specific therapists that have that specialized in sexual dysfunction for mum. And and I think a lot of them don't know that there's, there's cures further. Ed it's like, there is a cure for vaginismus.I know there's a cure of, I don't want to do it, but but these guys that they have these when [00:46:00]they do go to therapy, they might know that there's treatments. So they've lost hope, but they don't, they don't know that there's penile implants. There is injections. There's certain medications that they can take that would hopefully help them.There's even male penile press thesis that I'd met the founder of that guy that makes externally worn penises. And it, I guess the saves several marriages as well. But so without them going to a therapist and finding out, and I don't think that they may not, may not know, and for them to end their life for that, that's even more horrible.But that they need to know more about it. There's such a stigma for, for this this whole taboo of this topic, but they hope they would talk to somebody and why not? What, what options are out there and know that they don't have to do. They don't have to have surgery to have a press Penile implant.They can use my app instead, you know, because who wants to have [00:47:00] injections in their penis. I think that would hurt, you know? So that's another thing too. It's like maybe they don't want to do those treatments anymore.De'Vannon: I, I just, I just really think that we should be more valuable than our dicks, but I can see they can stroke a male ego and then how a woman or whatever it is someone's dating could praise them for their sexual performance. But I just, I just want to encourage people to let their relationships and their self value be based on more than Dick and Pelosi. I can Anna: yeah. Would be nice. ButDe'Vannon: we, we, we, can we come a little bit farther than that people Anna: I mean, not, not everybody's like that. I mean, there's couples that I hear on Facebook that are like, We have, we have such great other types of intimacy that we don't need intercourse cause outercourse and you know, they're fine with that and not [00:48:00] so,De'Vannon: You said outercourse, Anna: yeah, like a De'Vannon: there are other chorus Anna: out outer, outer course instead of intercourse, this outer core. So anything like De'Vannon: like four plates. Anna: and stuff, I guess. Yeah. Like a, yeah. Does it mean even though you're, even though you have ed, you still can what's the proper word come and ultimate. What's the cool word to use nowadays. De'Vannon: Ejaculated com bust a nut. Anna: but if you're limp, I don't know if you knew that you don't have to tell me if you know that.De'Vannon: No, I don't. I didn't know that that was possible. Anna: Yep. I didn't either until I started reading and I'm like, what really? So I guess what the right position, the outer is can work, grinding and stuff.De'Vannon: Hmm, I suppose. So [00:49:00] there's not a blockage in between the testicles and the urethra and the flow of semen can flow out because the hard, the erection is, is nothing more than blood rushing into the spongy tissue that makes up, you know, the penis, the Dick area, you know, blood is what makes Dick hard. But I guess, but yeah, I mean, there's nothing blocking the flow of the spring mountain shore Ramadan. Anna: did it. No.De'Vannon: Hm. Well, now we'll just power, you know, we gotta learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. And we also got to learn how to love ourselves. I feel like I just keep feeling like. The whole broke. Dick broke pussy thing is like the, kind of like the surface level of this. I feel like that this is so much deeper.You know, I feel like that this is a, like a cavernous void of. I don't know, like just did something broken inside a person. Cause you know, when you're happy, healthy, and whole, you can have shit fuck up in your [00:50:00] life or in your body. And that won't take your joy away from you. You know, when you reach a certain level of mental, which you already spiritual maturity and emotional maturity, you know, not saying you won't be pissed off if, if something breaks in your body or if you get cancer or if you get HIV, but you're not gonna let it into your life because you know how to focus on what is working and not, what's not working.So you might have some health issues, but what else, what, what what's actually going on, good in your life and everything like that. Why focus and emphasize and make a big deal out of one negative when you've got so much positive going on. It's like this whole fight over cut and uncut dicks, you know, people are so goddamn, shallow and shit that they've made people feel insecure about.Okay. I'm not gonna say I'm not going to have sex with him. He has an uncut Dick. The thing is ugly. Or on the converse, somebody that'd be like, well, I only want [00:51:00] uncut dicks. You know, it was like a whole thing, especially in the gay community. It's like a whole big fiasco and, and I'm all like, God damn it.Just shit. Dick is Dick other daily work. The same, all that is is a, is a, is a, is like a cosmetic thing. You know, it was, there was a hood there. Or there's not, you know, Yeah,sure. You can have your preferences, but it shouldn't be to the point that he makes somebody feel bad. You know, if their Dick isn't pretty enough, you know, you know, all of that and nobody should accept that sort of criticism, you know, from somebody else.And so, you know, again, it just gets me back to watching how we think about ourselves, being sure that our value systems about ourselves, not based on superficial things and also not allowing somebody to make us feel bad over superficial things. If some people should accept you for who you are, no matter what, not, what you can [00:52:00] do. Anna: Yeah. That's how it should be. But.De'Vannon: Now, you mentioned, you mentioned the statistic about how many men have we worked out a function, the songs, and how many are projected to, what are those, what are those statistical projections for? What. Anna: I didn't really find much for women because either they don't report it. Like if I, if I didn't go to the doctor, I would never have known, I have vaginismus. I want to just pay just like dealt with it. But and I think I had, this was back in the day too, when I was at, when I started using tampons because they were hurt, they were hurt.I'm like, that's weird. I'm like, well, I never said anything. Cause you know, it's embarrassing to tell my parents and my mom that or whatever, or the doctor that so, so there's not like an exact statistic for women, but I'm sure there is, there's a ton out there.De'Vannon: Well, that makes sense and sense of such a big deal for men if something's not working right. You know, he's probably going to go run real quick to try to get that shit fixed. Anna: Yeah. And there's a ton of women that have painful intercourse and they just deal with it. And like myself, I never, actually, I went to the [00:53:00] doctor. When I was early marriage and I was, I would say like sex hurts. I don't know why it hurts. It hurts. And they're like, well, just relax, have a glass of wine. And you'll be fine.I'm like, okay, thanks. When I went to the next doctor, same thing, relax, have a glass of wine. I'm like, oh my gosh. So let's put, these women are being told and said, you know, this time, thankfully somebody said my new doctor was like, you have vaginismus. Otherwise I would have been like, well, you're just too tense.And it's not all mental because I was under anesthesia of having my hysterectomy. And there were it was a vaginal hysterectomy and the doctor's like, I couldn't even get instruments. And then when you were under anesthesia with thing was just super tight and closed and not gonna go away. So yeah.It's so it's not just mental because I heard that too. Like, oh yeah, it was the wrong guy then that's probably what it is literally with me. I'll cure you. De'Vannon: Yeah. Anna: Sure.De'Vannon: Well, not all doctors are created even, you know, I believe [00:54:00] in second, third, fourth opinions, whatever it is that you need in order to until you feel like you've received an answer of PISA and you know, when it makes sense to you, and then you're not trying to like negotiate with, you know, if you know some shit ain't right.That you're getting from a doctor and then go somewhere else. Anna: Yes. That's what, yeah. Especially with cancer stuff. I had a really bad plastic surgeon that a little too confident and messed up my chest and I had to have another side, the other side removed because of it to make him symmetric. And he was just very cocky. Like, I'll wait until you're done with my once I'm done with your mastectomy, doing your reconstruction, your, your friends are going to be jealous of your, of your chest.And I'm like, I don't even have nipples guy con what friends gonna be like, Ooh, look at you Ana. No, so yeah. Second opinions.De'Vannon: I would have run right then, because, you know, if you're in a doctor's office going through what you were going through it at that point in time about your friends, you know, it was about Anna: [00:55:00] know he was very cocky.De'Vannon: about you and what you need to feel beautiful. Not about giving you a look so that you can go out there and give shallow ass people a reason to give you an attaboy or an ad, a girl or whatever.You know, his heart was not in the right place. Anna: yeah. Yeah. He's not a good guy, but I know how to pick them. Sometimes these doctors andDe'Vannon: So you've mentioned that this app is free. Anna: yes, it's free and it will have premium features available right now. Their premium features are free, but once I have enough users, then we'll do the premium services at an extra charge because I have to make some kind of revenue in order to maintain the app. So so yeah, right now it is, it is a free app.De'Vannon: So that you plan to grandfather, the people in and give them the premium services to people who have signed up, have been with you from the beginning, or will you give them a discounted rate or what's the plan? Anna: I'm not really sure yet, because I was debating if I should do a [00:56:00] monthly rate too. Cause that's another reason why I wanted to do a monthly rate for everybody is because I don't want someone to just sign up for the app to just to be nosy and just to see, like, let's see if I know anybody that has ed next to me or whatever my neighborhood.And and I didn't want that freedom. Cause I mean, I've been tablet. I could tell, like I already have a fake user on there, John DOE I'm like, or like whatever it was. I'm like what do I do with this guy? And there's no picture of him, you know? So why is he on this app? Is he because he's being nosy or is he being shy?You know, what's the reason, so. So I thought that maybe having like a minimum registration fee or whatever, it will be monthly fee that they would prevent malicious users. would actually know exactly what the app's about. They won't sign up, you know, if, if it's free, they won't sign up. Or if they have to pay for it, they may hesitate to sign up because they were make sure that they understand what the apps about first.De'Vannon: Right. That might not be a bad idea. I mean, I think E harmony [00:57:00] did something similar, you know, to that, you know, and have done very, very well in terms of, you know, having a fee for everybody, you know, with the, with the money, the things people spend money on, you don't have the bullshit, the money on, you know, hello coffee is, was at least $5.If you dare eat food, which I hate fast food, but shit, you know, you're looking at a good eight to $10 for one meal at a fast food restaurant. So a couple of dollars a month. Anna: To find true love that's worth it. Right.De'Vannon: No, it is totally worth it. And then, yeah, you'll, you'll get the bullshit people, bullshit ass people off your off of your app that way. So is there anything else you would like people to know about entwined? You know, this app can be found and like what the Google app store and the apple app store and on the website, like, so tell us where it is and anything at all. You want us to know about the app?Anna: So right now, if you go to intwine dating.com E N T w I N E dating.com, you [00:58:00] can read the whole history of why I created the app again, if you'd like, and then also you can download it to the play store. So Android it's available on Android. You use it as a web web-based app and then also so. IOS I'm working on that because I have, they, I guess they're not accepting any new dating apps in the app store right now.So I have to plead my case and show them that this is not because they said there's too many scams out there. So I had to show them, look, I have this many users. I've helped this many users. It's been on Google play store for how many months or years. And I joined all these podcasts and I in this magazine, you know, so it's a legit person.That's created something to help others. So it's just to show that it's a unique app. And then once I plead my case, I'll be able to go into the, into iOS, which I can't wait for that too. Cause it's a lot to explain.De'Vannon: Right. So the, do you have like a Facebook group, but you know, you can make like a private Facebook group so that people can [00:59:00] talk to each other. Do you have something like this? Anna: I don't yet. I, I tried to, to create like a sexual dysfunction group and a. I got a lot of creepy people trying to join us. So from different countries. And so I'm like, well, that's not going to work. So yeah, I do have like my business page, my entwine and twine Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. But as far as like a group for just the users, not yet.De'Vannon: Okay. All right. All right, Anna. Well, this isn't bringing us to the, to the end of our, I felt like I don't know, very like meaningful and loving conversation here that we've had today. So what, what advice do you have that? And I'm going to let you have the last word here. What, what advice do you have for people, men and women, both who are suffering?From either cancer and or [01:00:00] sexual dysfunction. Anna: The sexual dysfunction. If you're one of those people that have been alone for a long time, this app could be your answer you've been waiting for. And I know it's intimidating to sign up at first, but there's other people out there that, that are okay with not having intercourse. And just because you can't, if you have ed or vaginismus or whatever, whatever condition you have, it's you deserve to be loved too.And, and I think you should take that leap and join in twine and you can have somebody there that's gonna love you just the way you are and you don't have to change for anybody. Just be yourself.De'Vannon: Yeah, That's like that. I think that Bruno Mars songs and he's like, girl, you were amazing just the way you are. Anna: that's right. Spear self. it, you know, I'm a karaoke horror, by the way.De'Vannon: Hey, be a horn, not a boy. [01:01:00]Anna: I go to karaoke like seven days a week when I don't have my kids. That's my outlet.De'Vannon: You do well in Japan. They love you over there. And what about closing words where anyone with cancer? Anna: If you are diagnosed or if you find like something suspicious, don't hesitate because early detection is key. If I had waited to check my lump out, out of fear, I wouldn't be here anymore because my cancer was

There's nothing more infuriating than when people throw shade at the anti-diet perspective without bothering to actually research it. When "The Biggest Loser" trainer/shameless fatphobe Jillian Michaels arrogantly released a Youtube clip trashing the 10 principles of intuitive eating, WITHOUT EVEN READING THE BOOK, she REALLY pi***ed off the community! And none more so than my guests, anti-diet fitness trainers Anna Hearn and Shreen El Masry, who have been dying to come on the podcast and set the record straight! Finally the COVID window opened just a crack so I could record the very first IN PERSON podcast! Join us as we dissect Jillian's often hilarious inability to comprehend a life beyond diet prison. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS 'PERMISSION TO EAT!!' It seems the lady doth protest too much - could it be that the Queen of Diet Prison is sensing the paradigm-shifting power of the anti-diet revolution? That's right folks, the unrivalled reign of Biggest Loser-esque terror is over!! Vive La Difference! Please note - this episode comes with a hefty side serve of calorie count discussions, so if you're in recovery from an eating disorder please consider your level of spoons to hear the diet talk. But, if you've had a gutful of igno-rants about anti-dieting, it's time to get ALL FIRED UP! Show Transcript:   LOUISE: So, here I am with Anna and Shreen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ANNA: Thank you for having us. SHREEN: Yeah, thank you so much. LOUISE: It’s so exciting to be alive with actual humans in the room, and slightly weird. Why don’t you guys tell me all about what is firing you up? ANNA: We’re really fired up about Jillian Michaels and her aggressive fatphobic rant on intuitive eating. LOUISE: (sighs) First of all, I have to say I love how you say ‘rant’, it’s very proper and awesome. But yes, Jillian Michaels – Biggest Loser trainer in the United States. Horrendously fatphobic. ANNA: Yeah, I mean … she got her living, she makes her living from shaming fat bodies. I think that tells a lot about her character and where she’s going to go with her intuitive eating rant. LOUISE: So, she was on the Biggest Loser for years and years and years. Her website … well, she’s touting herself as the world’s best trainer. Like, the biggest expert in the world on all things fitness. Which, well … this is just a hunch, but I could find people on the planet who are more qualified. ANNA: Well, if you want to break down her qualifications, I think it looks like she’s done a couple of personal training qualifications, a couple of fitness qualifications and … SHREEN: One ‘woo woo’ nutrition qualification. ANNA: There is a nutrition qualification there too, but it doesn’t look like there’s any degrees or anything. So, when it comes to intuitive eating and looking at all of that, when we go into it you’ll realise, I think, that she hasn’t really done her research. She doesn’t understand it. And I think it’s interesting that somebody without that nutrition background or lived experience with that sort of thing talks about it the way that she does. SHREEN: I think as well, not only does she come across really aggressive and shaming, also I think her insecurity is really coming out in this video. Intuitive eating is a movement that’s really starting to take off, and she’s clearly threatened by it. You can see her defence mechanism is up, and she’s … you know, really, just … her demeanour is just awful. LOUISE: It's hard to tell, though, if her demeanour’s just awful because she’s defensive or because her demeanour’s just awful. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s true. ANNA: I kind of picked up on that and thought she was sensing a threat because intuitive eating is becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more aware of it. So that could threaten what she does, because she makes a living forcing people to lose weight. LOUISE: So, during the 90’s and the early 2000’s, like … it was a free-for-all with bullying people with larger bodies, as we saw. World-wide, the Biggest Loser was the number one show, and everyone thought it was okay. So, she’s had this unfettered ability to be horrible about body size and really belittling of people in larger bodies. And now, I think she’s realising it’s not okay to keep on doing that. ANNA: The backlash about it. LOUISE: So, just to set the stage. What we’re seeing … because I did see the internet blow up. It was a while ago now, but let’s face it - we’ve all been in iso and unable to talk to each other. So, she has like a YouTube channel and one of her YouTube little presentations - I don’t watch what she does, just for my own mental health - but this one was Jillian Michaels talking about intuitive eating. Which, oh my god … let’s just get Donald Trump talking about sexism. ANNA: That’s a great analogy. SHREEN: She’s basically, I think she’s just gone on the website and just pulled up the principles without doing any research into it or even understanding there’s over a hundred studies done on intuitive eating and there’s a whole book as well. She just went on there, read out these principles and gave her, I guess, her opinion.  ANNA: It became really clear that she hasn’t taken the time to understand it. She hasn’t learnt about the authors; you’ll see as she comes to the end of it, she talks about assuming that it was written by somebody who had just had some bad experience with diet culture, maybe had an eating disorder LOUISE: Oh my god, that’s so disrespectful SHREEN: So disrespectful. ANNA: No understanding or bothering to explore that the authors are actually dietitians who had come up with this approach because they had done so much work with clients who had struggled a lot and this is what they’d learnt from working with them over years and years. LOUISE: These are the gurus. Like, Tribole and Resch, they wrote the initial book Intuitive Eating and it’s just been updated, which is fantastic. But even that, even their book which is written from that perspective of helping people recover from eating disorders, that book is built on another big long history of social justice and fat activism. To not recognise that intuitive eating is part of a social movement and like, the way she presented it is like, she just stumbled across a webpage and … oh my god. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And it came across very, very condescending. I felt really bothered … SHREEN: It’s so harmful, as well. That was the thing that really bothered me the most, was how much … I mean, she causes so much harm anyway, but the message was just next level harm. And if anyone was watching that and had no idea, the things that she was saying … yeah, it’s just not on. LOUISE: Oh god, yikes. So, we thought we would unpick Jillian Michael’s feelpinion to each of the ten principles of intuitive eating. And you guys have written some awesomely detailed notes. ANNA: We had a really good chat about it. LOUISE: Fantastic. But I’m so interested, because you guys both work in this industry as HAES® positive, body inclusive, weight neutral trainers hearing from almost like the personification of diet culture woman. SHREEN: She is the reason why people have so much fitness trauma and so much negative association with fitness. She’s causing that. ANNA: She is the epitome of diet culture. SHREEN: Yeah, she is the epitome of diet culture, for sure. ANNA: And I think we chatted about this as we were hanging out one day, and we just came across this as a topic that fired both of us up. And it’s frustrating when you see … when you’re so heavily involved in this space, and the HAES® space, and the body inclusive space, it can be … and luckily for me working here at Haven, this is the space I come to work every day. So, I’m not exposed to traditional diet culture unless I stumble across it or it’s brought to my attention. So, I couldn’t help but just be really quite wild about this. LOUISE: I love it. I mean, I don’t love that you’re wild, but I kind of do. But, yeah. It’s nice to know that in this industry there are people who feel really strongly about just putting an end to this. She’s what’s wrong with the fitness industry at the moment, and you guys are the future. And I think she can smell that. So, I think, like I … I managed to watch it and still shaking with rage but thank you for this glass of champagne. ANNA: I don’t think we could do this without a little bit of champagne. SHREEN: No, we need some bubbles. LOUISE: The first thing she starts with, so she’s actually going through all the principles. SHREEN:  Correct. LOUISE: Why don’t you give me the lowdown on your reaction. ANNA: Let’s kick off. So, she does go through the points one by one, and the first principle is ‘reject the diet mentality’. And I just want to point out a few things that came up for me that were just so apparent throughout. Her fatphobia is so clear. She’s driven, everything she says, and her approach is all drive by this. And I think she’s very ignorant, like she doesn’t see that there’s an issue with this. She comes form that space where it’s very normalised to shame fat bodies, it’s not okay to be in a bigger body. And she very clearly associates weight and health, they’re so closely tied, which I think it really problematic, obviously. So, in this ‘reject diet mentality’, what came up for you, Shreen? SHREEN: Well, the first thing for me was that she couldn’t distinguish a difference between fad diets and what dieting is, and diet culture. She’s like, “oh you know, if it’s fad diets we’re talking about yeah, yeah sure”, but this is a woman who has sold supplements in the past. LOUISE: She’s sold fad diets. SHREEN: She’s sold fad diets. And she is diet culture, so I guess she can’t … she doesn’t understand what diet culture actually is and why it’s so important to reject it. I mean, diet culture in the US alone is worth 70 billion dollars. ANNA:  She profits off it. SHREEN: She profits off everyone’s insecurities. So, she was just like, “reject diet culture? What’s this, what does this mean?”. And I really did sense there that her insecurity is coming out there because that is her, that’s how she makes her money. ANNA: Well that’s it, she’s really incentivised to support diet culture.  LOUISE: But the distinction that she made between “well, if it’s fad, but if it’s proper” … it just made me laugh, because she’s had no less than four separate lawsuits … ANNA:  Jillian? SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: Launched against her by her consumers who bought her caffeine-fuelled diet pills. ANNA: Which I think she might have … there might have been something on the Biggest Loser where she gave them to contestants unfairly, apparently, as well. LOUISE: Oh my god, scandal on the Biggest Loser. Like … ANNA: Well, the other thing that came up for me there was she said, “what is this, healthy at any size?”, and that’s immediately a red flag representing that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She hasn’t researched this because … I can understand it’s very easy to misconstrue Health At Every Size® for healthy at every size, but it’s quite a different meaning and that assumption that, you know, just assuming that we’re saying as a Health at Every Size® professional that all bodies are healthy, that’s not where we’re aiming. We’re talking about people being able to pursue health regardless of shape and size. LOUISE: Or, also, we’re talking about the choice not to pursue health and to be left the fuck alone. SHREEN: Yeah, there’s no moral obligation. If people want to do so, then it’s up to them. It shouldn’t be … they shouldn’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but that’s what diet culture is saying. ANNA: Your body, your rules. SHREEN: And this part of her rant really, really … we know that she’s incredibly fatphobic and she fat shames, but it just came out so much in that where she was again talking, talking about size 16. And she’s saying “well, you know, if you’re a size 16 of course I love you but you’re not healthy”. Which is just … LOUISE: Get fucked. SHREEN: Yeah, absolute garbage. ANNA: Yeah. And Health at Every Size® also is about respect for all bodies, and I think there is a real lack of respect in just making that assumption. You can’t tell. How does she know what someone’s health is, you know? What their metabolic functions are, their blood work, their social, mental health … you can’t tell that by someone’s size. SHREEN: Genetics, everything. There’s so much, it’s so multifaceted. LOUISE: Everything I think is just far too complicated for her. She has to actually, like … I mean, clearly, she hasn’t read anything or thought about anything. “Nope, that’s a number, that’s an assumption, and don’t challenge that”.  SHREEN: Yeah. And if someone’s watching that, I mean, how triggering. How much harm that one comment could cause somebody that could lead them down a path of dieting and to an eating disorder. ANNA: And especially if they were already vulnerable of somebody who would identify with being in a size 16, or plus. And also, size 16 is quite variable depending on which shop you shop in, you know? Where you get your clothes from. What’s a size anyway? What does it matter? SHREEN: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. LOUISE: Size is not the same as health, and she needs to pull her head in. I wonder if her YouTube videos come with a trigger warning. I don’t think they do, but they should. Because good point, you know, that she … everything she says is potentially a trigger. SHREEN: Especially the size of her audience as well, I’m worried. ANNA: She’s got a big reach still. Some of the comments though were interesting, some really great points. People were talking about intuitive eating and picking up on that she doesn’t understand it, she’s missing the point. LOUISE: That is really reassuring. ANNA: She stopped the comments, she cut them off. LOUISE: Oh no, they were too complicated. ANNA: So, the next principle is ‘honour your hunger’, and she said something pretty radical here. Well, it’s not really radical in the fitness world. These numbers get thrown around a lot. But trigger warning, there are numbers here. She says, “if you’re trying to lose weight, you can keep your body fed on as low as 1200 calories”. And that most women, especially those over, you know, relating to being a certain age, shouldn’t be eating over 1600 calories a day. SHREEN: Which is just absolutely unbelievable. She’s saying that … I mean, that’s what a toddler needs. A toddler needs 1200-1600 calories a day. LOUISE: How very dare she tell me how much I can eat, under a principle that says, ‘honour your hunger’. ANNA: She … on one hand, I’m not surprised she threw those numbers out because those numbers are thrown out all the time in the fitness world. I don’t know where … MyFitnessPal? LOUISE: Are they really? SHREEN: We were saying, MyFitnessPal may have started the whole 1200 calories thing … LOUISE: I think Michelle Bridges is guilty of that too. ANNA: Oh actually, you’re right, she had a program that was based on that. LOUISE: It’s just a nice round number, isn’t it? Let’s just pluck this out of our arse and throw that at all women. ANNA: What I find there though is that like Shreen said, it’s something that a child needs. And I just wanted to double-check that, because I’m not a nutritionist, I’m a yogi and I run a studio, but I wanted to check with somebody who does work with that. I chatted to our non-diet nutritionist Nina and she clarified that yes - this is generalisation - but that kind of number is something that would serve a child. Like, a toddler or a four, five-year-old. And then thinking about the effects of being on a low-calorie diet for a long period, things like loss of menstrual cycle, loss of bone density, fatigue, mood swings, constipation, blood sugar imbalance, stress hormones getting out of whack … SHREEN: Sex drive … ANNA: Sex drive … what did you say before? SHREEN: Dry vagina (laughs). ANNA: She didn’t mention that, did she? SHREEN: No. LOUISE: No, but that might be suffering all of them, you know? And why she’s so grouchy. ANNA: Memory fog and brain fog … memory loss and brain fog. So, these are all things that can be affected by not being adequately fed. And the better indicator of your needs are your body and your internal hunger signals. And we’re taught to … these external sources of just following this rule plan of 1200 calories a day means that if I need more than that – maybe at the time of my period especially I might need much more - and I’m just denying my natural hunger levels. LOUISE: The whole ‘per day’ thing really gives me the shits as well. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s a really good point. LOUISE: This is just a statistical method to help researchers make assumptions about nutrition. It’s not supposed to be something religiously followed. SHREEN: No, there’s no … ANNA: An individual thing, yeah. LOUISE: It’s bizarre. But, isn’t that interesting that even as she’s like, she’s trying desperately, the poor little thing to understand that this is a principle of intuitive eating but she can’t quite get there because she immediately lurches into “well, if you want to lose weight …”. I just felt like reaching through the screen and saying, “realise that intuitive eating is not a weight loss program”. ANNA: That’s half the problem, is that she clearly thinks that the only people who explore intuitive eating are going for weight loss. She says that a few times. LOUISE: Oh, she’s a scrambled egg. ANNA: Yeah. She doesn’t understand that the whole purpose of intuitive eating is more about finding a peaceful relationship with food and your body, not about trying to pursue making your body be something, a certain size. SHREEN: It’s about food freedom, it’s about having a healthy relationship with food, stopping the obsession. It’s not … it’s definitely not following these external rules. It’s about being in tune with what your body wants and needs and getting in touch with those signals. LOUISE: Different planet, I don’t think she’s visited. SHREEN: I don’t think she understands what the ‘honouring hunger’ … it’s a basic self-care need. If you’re not honouring hunger … LOUISE: Again, you’re mentioning a foreign concept here. This is someone who will happily live with a dry vagina, it doesn’t matter. SHREEN: Yep (all laugh). LOUISE: We all went there. SHREEN: She just really doesn’t understand and that is the reason why … people don’t give themselves enough food and they’re following diet plans, and they’re going to give themselves cravings leading to overeating and bingeing, and that’s perfectly normal as well. Other than ‘rejecting the diet mentality’ one of the first steps of intuitive eating is to just honour your hunger and it’s so important. It’s self-care. ANNA: It's so liberating too, if you’re been on the diet bandwagon for many, many years, to recognise that “hey, my body’s got a lot of wisdom, and it’s telling me, it’s giving me messages and I can learn how to reconnect with that”. And I think part of the common thread that comes up with what she says all the time is that … she thinks it’s all about ‘you can’t trust your body’. I think an important thing that I’ve learned is you can really learn how to trust your body. We get into this as we move into the next principle or two. It’s not about endless eating and not being able to, you know, like you’re just not going to go out of control all the time, which is what she sort of thinks. SHREEN: Point number three is that ‘unconditional permission to eat all foods’. LOUISE: She really had a problem with principle three. Like, she was visibly … SHREEN: Yeah, and she started comparing it to smoking, and credit cards, and it’s like …what are you talking about? ANNA: So yeah, this ‘make peace with food’, you’re right. And she talks about saying, talking about the ‘last supper mentality’, and she says, “I’m not religious, I don’t know what Jesus ate”. LOUISE: She really needs to read some books. ANNA: She needs to read Intuitive Eating if she’s going to talk about it. Because if she read it, she might really understand what that means. I thought it was quite clear just from the ‘last supper mentality’, don’t you think? SHREEN: You just eat everything in sight. LOUISE: I don’t even think it has religious connotations, I thought it was like a death row thing. SHREEN: Oh, that’s true … LOUISE: Like eating your last meal. ANNA: That’s right. And it makes sense, I think, if you think about that. You know you’re not going to have something again, so you want to make the most of it in that moment. And ultimately that’s what it’s about. I think that’s kind of clear. But she didn’t understand that, she was sort of like “I don’t like this intense, this hostile approach”. And I’m like, you ARE intense and hostile.  LOUISE: How is that intense and hostile? I’ve not ever read the ten principles of intuitive eating and thought “gosh, that’s angry”. I mean, gosh. Visit the internet, really (all laugh). ANNA: I think she is the, again, the epitome diet culture, and she is the hostile one. Think about the Biggest Loser, she is very aggressive and in-your-face, pushing her clients. So, here she talks about it all being about self-control and willpower, and I think that’s missing the point of intuitive eating completely as well. LOUISE: She just can’t … SHREEN: She doesn’t understand. If she’d read the book, she would understand there’s science behind it as well, if she … LOUISE: I don’t think if she read the book she would understand.  SHREEN: Yeah (laughs) ANNA: I picked up on that too, she’s [inaudible]. LOUISE: She almost yelled “You do not permission to eat”. Which was quite scary. SHREEN: Because I think that reflects her inner narrative. That’s what’s going on in her head. LOUISE: Yeah. Not … not relaxed, that’s for sure. That response to the third point was quite unhinged. ANNA: And like you said, relating the food to credit cards or smoking, that’s a completely different thing. I don’t think … you know, food is something that we rely on, like biologically … SHREEN: We need food to survive, we need food … and intuitive eating is about healing your relationship to food, it’s about having a healthy relationship to food, and you can’t have that if you’re restricting foods. That’s why it’s really important to give yourself unconditional permission to eat. And yeah, it is scary. Of course. It’s scary when you’ve come from that mentality, but it’s the only way for food to lose its power. ANNA: Yeah. And I think it may be a good point to think about how it’s helpful to be handheld through that process. It can sound really scary to somebody who’s new to it, or who hasn’t delved into intuitive eating too much, or worked with a coach or therapist or something. Maybe working with a. dietitian on this would be really helpful. I understand how it can feel like that lack of control, but I think that’s a period that sometimes is part of that healing process. When you let go of the restriction, and allow yourself full unconditional permission to eat, then you might explore some of those foods that were off-limits for a period. And it might feel like you are diving into them a lot. But … LOUISE: Which is perfectly normal. SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: The last supper effect … like, that actually, now I remember. The ‘last supper’ effect, it is the paper by Herman and Polivy, “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we diet”. That’s the ‘last supper’ effect. It’s a perfectly normal psychological response to restriction is to eat more. And the difference between that and going into massive credit card debt is if you keep giving yourself permission to eat, if you keep reminding yourself that the food’s always there, it’s perfectly safe and I’m allowed to eat it, you will naturally settle down when you get food safety. Eating is totally different to compulsive spending on credit cards. I think she’s just … a lot of people freak out when they let go of dieting and get into that all-or-nothing pattern with eating, but there’s like … a real difference between being in an all-or-nothing pattern of eating and adopting intuitive eating and going through that first phase of eating all the food. It’s just different, and its’ not pathological. It’s a normal response to restriction that obviously … she is so restricted and terrified of that. ANNA: It’s all about control, isn’t it? And I think that, you know, talking about the 1200-1600 calories, and I think she refers to that 1600 calories as something you should never, ever go over. So, as a woman, we’re meant to live our lives constantly not going above that. SHREEN: And it’s such a dangerous message. It’s just not enough food, at all. And it’s … and that’s what she’s selling to people, as well … LOUISE: She’s more like ‘honour your restriction’. SHREEN: Yeah! ANNA: We could reverse all of this and create a Jillian Michaels plan. LOUISE: The non-intuitive eating principles. Accept diet culture … what’s the second one? ANNA: Honour your hunger … don’t honour your hunger. LOUISE: Ignore your hunger. SHREEN: Ignore your hunger, yeah. LOUISE: Number three, you do not have permission to eat (all laugh). Alright, principle four? ANNA: Principle four is ‘challenge the food police’. LOUISE: Okay, so hers would be ‘obey the food police’. SHREEN: I don’t think she really understands that she is the food police. When she’s going through it? Like she is … the food police are all the things she’s already talked about. 1200 calories, 1600 calories, these are things that are the food police. ANNA: These are the rules. SHREEN: She doesn’t understand that principle at all. ANNA: The one thing that she said that I did agree with her on was “don’t beat yourself up”. I think she says it in a different way, she means it in a different way, because she kind of adds on and says, “don’t beat yourself up, but don’t fuck up”. Oh sorry. LOUISE:  Please, swear. ANNA: She says, not quite like that, but “maintain balance, it’s all about balance”. And don’t … SHREEN: And self-control. ANNA: So, “don’t beat yourself up, but just don’t do it”, sort of thing. SHREEN: Or, “you can do better”. She always says that, “you can do better”. ANNA: Yeah, so that message is like, it’s still that sort of shaming approach. SHREEN: Condescending. LOUISE: It makes no sense whatsoever. ANNA: But don’t beat yourself up, I mean, that’s important. LOUISE: You know what, ‘don’t beat yourself up’ means she knows people are not going to be able to do it.  ANNA: That’s a good point, yeah. Yeah, which she talks about the… LOUISE: … about going straight back to jail. ANNA: She talks about the stats, which is interesting. She brings up the stats. LOUISE: Oh, the stats. Yeah, that bit made me itchy. ANNA: That’s coming. It’s coming. The next one is ‘discover the satisfaction factor’, which I think she was actually in agreement with. SHREEN: Yeah, that one … she was saying, food for pleasure … I think that one was almost okay. ANNA: Like wow, okay, we agree. And then six was ‘feel your fullness’. And what came up here was again, it was just clear she hasn’t read the book because she didn’t understand that concept at all. LOUISE: She probably doesn’t know what fulness feels like. SHREEN: And then she started talking about how it’s in your head, and kind of went off … even I got a little bit lost with what she was saying. Like, “oh, we’re on fullness principle? I thought we were …” ANNA: She was kind of saying, yeah, she was kind of saying that if you’re not listening to your body, you’re not picking up your fullness levels, there’s something messed up in your head. And I was thinking, you know what? Sometimes I eat food and I’m quite satisfied physically but I’m still eating because the food’s really good, or I don’t want to … I’m eating in company and I don’t want to finish the meal and want to show that I’ve appreciated it … SHREEN: That’s the thing with intuitive eating, that it’s not the ‘hunger/fullness’ diet. And eating past fullness is normal. It’s totally okay. And it’s not just about eating, you know, getting in touch with your fullness signals. It’s about eating foods that give you pleasure and satisfaction. ANNA: Which is the ‘discover the satisfaction factor’. SHREEN: Which is the next one, but yeah. (sighs). LOUISE: God. So, if you can’t feel fullness, there’s something psychologically wrong with you.  ANNA: That’s the message that she’s giving, yeah. SHREEN: But not understanding that if you’re dieting or especially if you’re only eating those dangerous amount of calories a day, you’re going to be absolutely … LOUISE: You mean, like an adult [inaudible] SHREEN: (laughs). Absolutely starving and of course you’re not going to feel your fullness. But there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s just your body. Your body is doing exactly what it is meant to do. It needs food. ANNA: She doesn’t see that 1200-1600 calories as a restriction. She sees it as like … SHREEN: That’s her normal. ANNA: That’s food, that’s what you’re allowed during the day. LOUISE: So depressing. ANNA: Pretty sure I eat double or triple that. LOUISE: Oh, my goodness. ANNA: So, we’re at number seven. We’re still only … oh, over halfway. ‘Cope with your emotions with kindness’.  SHREEN: I think the thing is … LOUISE: That doesn’t really bring her to my mind. SHREEN: Yeah. She kind of goes “oh, yeah, I agree with this, but it shouldn’t just be one paragraph …”. And I’m like YES, there’s a BOOK. A book! There’s a whole book to go with this.  ANNA: She clearly seems to think it’s just this very basic, you know, overview … SHREEN: Guidelines. ANNA: Yeah, just these ten principles. She hasn’t read the book; she doesn’t know who wrote it. LOUISE: No, but this one really shat me to tears. Because this is where she’s saying that she’s had some childhood history with being maybe fractionally larger than someone else and has had to do, like … basically what she’s saying is that if you cannot lose weight and keep it off forever, that is your psychological fault. SHREEN: Yep. LOUISE: You haven’t done the work in therapy to fix your seemingly not thin body. Which is like, such a load of bullshit. And just unscientific and not sound whatsoever. And like you were saying before, people … she doesn’t understand that food is a relationship, and it’s a complex relationship. And the refusal to see anything other than like … she doesn’t even mention hunger as a reason to eat. Anything other than eating to a calorie control, anything else is incorrect. And we eat for an infinite amount of reasons and all of them make sense. And that’s what I love about intuitive eating, it doesn’t pathologise eating. It doesn’t pathologise hunger, it doesn’t pathologise fullness, and it doesn’t pathologise emotions as a reason to eat. And she clearly is. Seeing the function of how wonderful sometimes binge eating is as a way of protecting yourself from [inaudible] stuff. There’s no pathologizing in intuitive eating, but she’s full of pathologizing thinking that even to read statements like this, it doesn’t sink in. ANNA: She’s oversimplifying the whole thing; she doesn’t understand it at all. And this is where she moves into talking about the percentage of people that are successful versus not successful at diets. SHREEN: So, she acknowledges that 95-98% of diets fail. Is this where she starts talking about the Biggest Loser? ANNA: Yeah. SHREEN: She then starts talking about how the Biggest Loser, there’s a 30% extra success rate if you follow the Biggest Loser method. LOUISE: Really? SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: So, she basically says, she acknowledges that the studies are very clear that 95% of people are unable to sustain a diet or sustain that weight loss, not a diet. But she says that actually on the Biggest Loser it’s only 65% of people that fail. So actually … SHREEN: So, she’s basically saying “we’ve got this success rate, if you do this …” LOUISE: Which study is this published in? Because the only study I’ve read from season 1 which is the … ANNA: The six-year study? SHREEN: The six year, yeah, really interesting. LOUISE: There were 16 people, and 14 of them regained. I don’t think that equates to 65%. Am I …? ANNA: I don’t know but even so … no, she says 35. So, 30% more than … she says 30%, 35% are successful. SHREEN: But even the fact that she’s now saying that 95-98% of diets fail, and she acknowledges that, but all that she’s been talking about is dieting. Diet the whole way through. She’s just completely contradicting herself. ANNA: Not only is it that they don’t work, but she continues to spruik it, continues to say that it’s possible, and if you do it her way, the Biggest Loser way … they did 7 hours of exercise a day, with gruelling regimes and being pushed and yelled at … LOUISE: And they all put the weight back on. ANNA: They put the weight back on. SHREEN: yeah. LOUISE: And their resting metabolic rate was screwed, six years later. SHREEN: Yeah, 700 calories it decreased by. They lost lean body mass, their fasting glucose increased, their blood sugar levels, yeah. They were the main things. But the fact that their metabolic rate decreased by such a large amount … especially where we were saying, she’s telling people to only eat 1200 calories but then you’re going to follow the Biggest Loser method, your metabolic rate’s going to drop by 700 calories, then what are you going to do? LOUISE: So, she lied about the stats on the Biggest Loser, and she’s not even talking to people about the metabolic impact. Because that study was fascinating, and I talk to clients about it. Because they predicted, the researchers predicted how much their resting metabolic rate would be dropped by …  ANNA: And what did they … LOUISE: And they found out it was even lower. So, they were worse off metabolically than they had predicted six years later. No one expected it to last that long, to have such a devastating impact. ANNA: Yeah, so it’s like a continued effect. It hasn’t regained back to before, pre … LOUISE: Exactly. And when stuff like that is suppressed, we know people are going to experience intense hunger, which of course you can’t honour. SHREEN: And the thing is, again, she’s completely misquoted this study herself but if she’d done her research she would know that there’s been over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done that show you have better body image, higher esteem, improved metabolism, decreased rates of disordered and emotional eating, diminished stress levels and increased satisfaction with life. That’s over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done. ANNA: And I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t say the same, with all of those positive effects, with dieting. LOUISE:  No, especially the ones that use her supplements, which show that everyone puts the weight back on. And the Biggest Loser study, everyone puts the weight back on … but let’s not focus on whether or not the weight comes back on. It’s actually the damage to the body and the metabolic systems that’s just absent from her rant. SHREEN: And not even the psychological damage, that’s not even mentioned. LOUISE: She’s evidence of the psychological damage. SHREEN: Yeah. That is true, yeah. ANNA: So, the next one is … principle eight, respect your body. LOUISE: Oh, fuck. ANNA: So, I think going back to when she spoke about size 16 always equalling healthiness, I think that shows that she doesn’t have respect for all bodies. And that kind of bothers me a bit. SHREEN. A bit. A lot. ANNA: It’s a big part of like, you know, our approach here and being a Health at Every Size® professional, you know? It’s about honouring and understanding and respecting that all bodies are different and need something different. SHREEN: And that you can’t tell somebody’s health by their body size, and that’s such … it’s a huge misconception as it is, let alone, I mean, Jillian Michaels saying this and it’s just … ANNA: Yeah, and just recognising that bodies are diverse, and they will do different things. Your health looks different at different points in your life. What you need changes day to day, and only your body really knows. You know? No external source, no trainer, no Jillian Michaels, no Dr Oz, nobody knows your body. SHREEN: And the whole principle of respecting your body is about being kind to yourself and compassionate and self-care, which is the complete opposite of Jillian Michaels. Like, she is just not kind. She’s not compassionate. She’s just shaming, judgemental, mean. Like … yeah. She’s … I just don’t think she even understands the word ‘respect’, quite frankly. LOUISE: Unless it’s like ‘respect my authority”. SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: Something I noticed too, that came up before, was that because she’s so invested in it … have you heard of the concept of religion, like dieting? The religion of dieting? She’s so completely invested in it, she’s almost not willing to look the other way, or explore that there might be some truth in this, because she’s so invested, like financially and that’s her way of living … LOUISE: It’s her identity. ANNA: Exactly. LOUISE: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think Alan Levinovitz, ‘The Gluten Lie’ … ANNA: That’s the guy. LOUISE: He talks about this, the religion of diet mentality. She is definitely the Pope. SHREEN: Quote of the day (all laugh). ANNA: So, then we come into ‘movement, feel the difference’. Which is principle nine. SHREEN: I think this one really got us fired up, didn’t it? ANNA: Well, the first thing that she said was like, “what is this? I don’t know what this ‘militant exercise’ even means”. LOUISE: That’s so funny (all laugh). ANNA: Like, really? Are you sure? LOUISE: She’s like, world-famous on memes for [inaudible]. I think I even did a presentation once where I used her with her finger in her face at someone as a demonstration of militant exercise. ANNA: Yeah, the kind of exercise that you don’t want to do if you want to have a sustainable relationship with movement. LOUISE: Yeah, your name’s on the t-shirt, love. SHREEN: Just telling people in this thing that, you know, this myth that’s just not true – ‘no pain, no gain’, that only hard exercise counts, it’s just utter rubbish. All movement counts, it doesn’t matter what it is. From playing with your kids, to hoovering, to dancing around your living room. LOUISE: Hoovering doesn’t count, I don’t even know what hoovering is … ANNA: She’s talking about hoovering, the hoover … SHREEN: Vacuuming, is that more Aussie? LOUISE: No, I don’t understand. (all laugh). SHREEN: But like, movement can be anything and you get the exact same health benefits from any type of regular movement, doesn’t matter what it is. But what she’s just trying to … she’s just bringing movement and aesthetics, that’s what she’s talking about. She’s talking about … ANNA: That’s a really good point, because if she was really interested in somebody’s health, then any kind of movement would be accessible, you know, like … SHREEN: Beneficial. ANNA: Helpful, yeah. SHREEN: Your blood markers, and stress levels, and sleep, it doesn’t matter what it is, it has the same health benefits. But she’s not talking about health. She’s talking about the way you look. ANNA: Yeah. She’s talking about ‘results’ a lot, and “if you want to get results fast” … because you know, let’s face it, she says “if you’re coming to look at intuitive eating, you’re trying to lose weight, you’re trying to get results fast.” LOUISE: Jillian! ANNA: “You’ve got to do a certain type of exercise, and my programs do that”. So, a little bit of spruiking her own programs too. SHREEN: What she doesn’t realise that she’s doing is having that negative relationship with exercise is not going to make people want to do it.  LOUISE: She doesn’t care about that. SHREEN: She’s the reason why people don’t want to go to the gym, or they hate exercise, because of people like Jillian Michaels. ANNA: Yeah, it’s that fitness trauma that you were talking about before. And what I recognise here, at the studio at Haven, community … in my experience, community has always been really powerful in building that sustainable and healthful relationship with movement. Joy and … SHREEN: And it’s that you enjoy, you [inaudible]. ANNA: And to want to come back, too. And that militant approach might work well for someone who responds to that but maybe for a short time. And then that motivation kind of wanes. And then it’s always trying to get back the motivation, you hear that a lot in fitness culture. But if you’re not coming at it from external, an external place, for external purposes, and it’s more about the … SHREEN: The way it makes you feel, using it as a tool for self-care rather than punishment … ANNA: Your mental health, having fun with your friends, it’s a completely different experience to being yelled at by Jillian Michaels. SHREEN: Her whole thing is yelling at people, making them feel guilty, punishing them. Like, and that’s just not what people need in a fitness professional. They need someone who is kind and compassionate and she’s just … that’s just not her, unfortunately. She’s just giving … ANNA: What is she? She’s the Pope of … the religion of dieting. She’s also the epitome of diet culture. She’s all of those things. And then the last principle is gentle nutrition, principle ten. LOUISE: I think this actually blew up her brain. SHREEN: Yeah, because she couldn’t understand the whole diet … principle one, principle ten … LOUISE: She couldn’t figure out how that fits with unconditional permission to eat. Because of course, if you have unconditional permission to eat, you’re going to stick your face into a burger for the rest of your life.  ANNA: Yeah, so again she thinks it’s all just endless eating. LOUISE: She’s stuck in that ‘all or nothing’ mentality. ANNA: Exactly, yeah. SHREEN: It’s funny, because she talks about that ‘black and white, all or nothing’ mentality and not understanding that’s exactly what she’s saying. Yeah. ANNA: Yeah, and again it came up just very, very clear that she hasn’t read the book, she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. SHREEN: Yeah, I think that’s the main … ANNA: This is when she said, you know, “it’s probably written by someone who has just really been hurt by diet culture and probably had an eating disorder, and, you know, probably just some random” and actually … LOUISE: Such a shame that she didn’t actually look at the author. SHREEN: Yeah, just even look up to who they were. Yeah. ANNA: It’s a little bit disappointing because you’d think somebody who has such a following, I think, has such a … I think there’s a moral obligation in a way to represent something that … when you have such a big following and you’re sharing something that can affect people deeply … SHREEN: It’s what we say, that she’s really coming from that dieting mentality and all that sort of shaming that she doesn’t understand that intuitive eating at its core is a self-care model. It’s very compassionate and she doesn’t understand that. Also. with intuitive eating, we’re not saying that it’s a solution for everybody. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body. She just doesn’t understand the concept at all, what it stands for. ANNA: It’s like she’s on such a different planet, and it’s not … doesn’t come across as open to exploring that this might be something that really serves people. SHREEN: Yeah, and that it’s having such a positive impact. We talked about earlier with the … ANNA: Feeling a bit threatened by the impact on her, you know, her … LOUISE: To her bottom line. I also think that, I mean, if she really is undernourished to that point that she has restricted her entire life, one of the things that happens when you’re weight supressed is cognitive rigidity. ANNA: That’s a really good point. LOUISE: So, it’s quite hard to be flexible. We see that a lot with people who are suffering in the depths of Anorexia, that you simply cannot think. And perhaps there’s an element of that that’s happening here. ANNA: That’s really interesting. SHREEN: That’s a really good point. Because what dieting, that kind of restriction is doing to you … LOUISE: Well, it gives her massive benefits. Huge amounts of recognition, it gives her income. She can’t think out of it. So, there’s not a lot of reason for her, like … I think the reason for putting up that video wasn’t a genuine exploration of “what’s this thing called ‘intuitive eating’?”.  SHREEN: It was just to … LOUISE: It was just to kind of … ANNA: Debunk it. LOUISE: To debunk it and keep hold of her customer base. Look, let’s assume that she is interested in the book. Jillian Michael’s house is in Malibu, California. I reckon we just whack a copy in an envelope, address it to her, maybe she’ll read it. ANNA: Do you think?  LOUISE: Yeah? I don’t know. Maybe if all of our listeners whack a copy into an envelope … SHREEN: Yeah!  LOUISE: 20 copies, please read. Maybe. SHREEN: Maybe, yeah. LOUISE: But I don’t think that was anything other than a … it’s quite interesting, I’m seeing this more and more. The famous people, the people who have really invested in diet culture, even the obesity researchers and all of that. They’re all kind of getting a little bit nervous about this pushback. SHREEN: They should be. LOUISE: It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. SHREEN: It’s time. LOUISE: It’s got nothing to do with the champagne. I think the celebs are getting nervous, like “what do you mean, people in larger bodies are okay with themselves just the way they are?”. And finding non weight-loss things to look after themselves, oh my gosh. What a huge, horrible threat. So, we’re not sorry, Jillian, that we made you nervous. ANNA: Agreed. I hope it gives her a little bit of food for thought (all laugh). LOUISE: I don’t know how many calories would be attached to that thought (all laugh). ANNA: I have to say, like, the thing that I think fires me up the most is how fatphobic she is. SHREEN: And how much harm … that’s the thing that fired me up the most, how much harm she’s causing people out there. And having had an eating disorder myself, it’s just … LOUISE: Horrible. You can see how triggering it is. SHREEN: I can see what it can do, yeah. That’s what fires me up. LOUISE: and let’s not forget when we say fatphobic, we mean people who hate fat people. And that is really reflective … even though she is professing “oh, I’m going to love you … but you’re unhealthy so change”. That’s troubling. Using health as a halo, an excuse or a reason for my core treatment of you just based on your appearance. And that’s just … those days are done. You can’t do that anymore. It’s just not cool. And I do wonder if there is like a Biggest Loser university somewhere?  ANNA: Michelle Bridges went to it as well. LOUISE: Because the same kind of hatred of fat people, you know … again, like masked with a thin layer of concern trolling for your health was Michelle Bridges’ thing. Four years ago, when she was on Australian Story and she was saying “I’m yet to meet someone who is morbidly obese and happy”. So, for people who are listening from overseas, Michelle Bridges is the Australian version of Jillian Michaels. And what an awful comment. So, Jillian has been pushed back against from this video, right? Michelle was pushed back against from this video too, with really clear … I know we all live in a bubble, but with quite a lot of push back. ANNA: That’s good. Was she on … was that on like Australian primetime TV? SHREEN: She was on Australian Story. LOUISE: Yeah [inaudible] … it shows how deeply she feels [inaudible] about people she’s profiting from. Putting them through three cycles a year of 1200 calorie program and she knows it doesn’t work. But the thing is, what they do is they double down. People like this double down, when they’re called out, when there’s a pushback. Instead of kind of opening up and say, “okay, I should probably issue an apology, maybe take the video down, maybe do some work”. They’re not doing that. Jillian’s not doing that. ANNA: I think she just keeps responding. And she’s just responding with the same rhetoric, so she’s not … SHREEN: I think she kind of comments that [inaudible], to learn about it more, which is a shame. ANNA: And how did Michele Bridges respond? LOUISE: Doubled down on it. About health, “I care deeply about health”. ANNA: The whole thing with health and weight, this is what really frustrates me about it too. If she’s really interested in health, she could support all the behaviours that support someone’s health. LOUISE: Too complicated. Remember? Too complicated. Anything that actually involves having to think about something other than my own diet plan … ANNA: It makes me realise how happy I’ve become in moving away from all this, that’s why I got away from it. Because I learned about how there’s another way. Intuitive eating, Health at Every Size®, the body positivity movement … I started delving into it and it just felt so triggering being around other fitness professionals from the traditional approach. And this here, I’ve got to say, got me so fired up. I’m going to be fired up for a while from this. SHREEN: We talk about fitness trauma, and Jillian Michaels is causing that. LOUISE: May she go the way of the dinosaurs and … (all laugh). ANNA: Well, hopefully there will be less and less of her to be seen in the future and more and more of kind of this messaging coming up, challenging … LOUISE: Absolutely, I absolutely think that’s going to happen. You’ve just reminded me actually, she … because Jillian, earlier in the year before she posted the nasty intuitive eating thing, she said something nasty about Lizzo. SHREEN: Yeah, of course.  ANNA: That sounds familiar … SHREEN: Yeah. That was before …  LOUISE: A little while before, I don’t know. It’s Covid, none of us have a timeline. ANNA: She’s said some pretty horrendous things. SHREEN: Really horrendous things yeah. LOUISE: Again, like … “she’s clearly going to get diabetes” or something? ANNA: I think she said something along the lines of “there’s nothing sexy about diabetes”, or clogged arteries or something.  SHREEN: Something like that, yeah. ANNA: How can she … that’s so inappropriate. Lizzo’s bouncing away on stage. She’s got stamina, she’s got energy.  SHREEN: We don’t know anything about her or her health. ANNA: And why do we have to talk about that anyway? She’s this amazing performer and doing this really cool stuff. It’s wonderful to see some diverse bodies out there that are getting out there as much as the other, the thin ideal that you see everywhere. LOUISE: Yeah, the comments that she made were like “why are we talking about Lizzo’s body, we should be talking about her music”. ANNA: So, she said that? LOUISE: Yeah. ANNA: But then … LOUISE: And it’s really funny, because she’s saying that we shouldn’t be talking about Lizzo’s body, but her entire website is full of shots of her body. ANNA: Yeah, and that’s her thing. SHREEN: That’s her thing, yeah. ANNA: She’s always talking about people’s bodies. Size 16, yeah. SHREEN: Yeah, non-stop. LOUISE: The point I’m making is that you don’t say that about Lizzo. And the pushback she got after she made that comment? This is the future Jillian. Lizzo is setting the world on fire.  ANNA: We need more Lizzo. SHREEN: We need more Lizzo. LOUISE: and you are the biggest loser. ANNA: Well put. LOUISE: Oh my god, let’s finish on a high note. Thank you, guys, that was an elegant unpacking of Jillian Michael’s ten principles of not understanding intuitive eating (all laugh). And how firmly we can steer the ship to this new awesome way of looking after our body. ANNA: Thank you. SHREEN: Thank you.  Resources Mentioned: (Watch if you can stomach) Jillian Michaels' Igno-rant on Youtube Urbszat, Dax, C. Peter Herman, and Janet Polivy. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet: Effects of anticipated deprivation on food intake in restrained and unrestrained eaters." Journal of abnormal psychology 111.2 (2002): 396. News article about 4 lawsuits against Jillian Michaels for her weight loss pills Fothergill, Erin, et al. "Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition." Obesity 24.8 (2016): 1612-1619. Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven Find out more about Shreen El Masry and Be You Be Free  

There's nothing more infuriating than when people throw shade at the anti-diet perspective without bothering to actually research it. When "The Biggest Loser" trainer/shameless fatphobe Jillian Michaels arrogantly released a Youtube clip trashing the 10 principles of intuitive eating, WITHOUT EVEN READING THE BOOK, she REALLY pi***ed off the community! And none more so than my guests, anti-diet fitness trainers Anna Hearn and Shreen El Masry, who have been dying to come on the podcast and set the record straight! Finally the COVID window opened just a crack so I could record the very first IN PERSON podcast! Join us as we dissect Jillian's often hilarious inability to comprehend a life beyond diet prison. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS 'PERMISSION TO EAT!!' It seems the lady doth protest too much - could it be that the Queen of Diet Prison is sensing the paradigm-shifting power of the anti-diet revolution? That's right folks, the unrivalled reign of Biggest Loser-esque terror is over!! Vive La Difference! Please note - this episode comes with a hefty side serve of calorie count discussions, so if you're in recovery from an eating disorder please consider your level of spoons to hear the diet talk. But, if you've had a gutful of igno-rants about anti-dieting, it's time to get ALL FIRED UP! Show Transcript:   LOUISE: So, here I am with Anna and Shreen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ANNA: Thank you for having us. SHREEN: Yeah, thank you so much. LOUISE: It’s so exciting to be alive with actual humans in the room, and slightly weird. Why don’t you guys tell me all about what is firing you up? ANNA: We’re really fired up about Jillian Michaels and her aggressive fatphobic rant on intuitive eating. LOUISE: (sighs) First of all, I have to say I love how you say ‘rant’, it’s very proper and awesome. But yes, Jillian Michaels – Biggest Loser trainer in the United States. Horrendously fatphobic. ANNA: Yeah, I mean … she got her living, she makes her living from shaming fat bodies. I think that tells a lot about her character and where she’s going to go with her intuitive eating rant. LOUISE: So, she was on the Biggest Loser for years and years and years. Her website … well, she’s touting herself as the world’s best trainer. Like, the biggest expert in the world on all things fitness. Which, well … this is just a hunch, but I could find people on the planet who are more qualified. ANNA: Well, if you want to break down her qualifications, I think it looks like she’s done a couple of personal training qualifications, a couple of fitness qualifications and … SHREEN: One ‘woo woo’ nutrition qualification. ANNA: There is a nutrition qualification there too, but it doesn’t look like there’s any degrees or anything. So, when it comes to intuitive eating and looking at all of that, when we go into it you’ll realise, I think, that she hasn’t really done her research. She doesn’t understand it. And I think it’s interesting that somebody without that nutrition background or lived experience with that sort of thing talks about it the way that she does. SHREEN: I think as well, not only does she come across really aggressive and shaming, also I think her insecurity is really coming out in this video. Intuitive eating is a movement that’s really starting to take off, and she’s clearly threatened by it. You can see her defence mechanism is up, and she’s … you know, really, just … her demeanour is just awful. LOUISE: It's hard to tell, though, if her demeanour’s just awful because she’s defensive or because her demeanour’s just awful. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s true. ANNA: I kind of picked up on that and thought she was sensing a threat because intuitive eating is becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more aware of it. So that could threaten what she does, because she makes a living forcing people to lose weight. LOUISE: So, during the 90’s and the early 2000’s, like … it was a free-for-all with bullying people with larger bodies, as we saw. World-wide, the Biggest Loser was the number one show, and everyone thought it was okay. So, she’s had this unfettered ability to be horrible about body size and really belittling of people in larger bodies. And now, I think she’s realising it’s not okay to keep on doing that. ANNA: The backlash about it. LOUISE: So, just to set the stage. What we’re seeing … because I did see the internet blow up. It was a while ago now, but let’s face it - we’ve all been in iso and unable to talk to each other. So, she has like a YouTube channel and one of her YouTube little presentations - I don’t watch what she does, just for my own mental health - but this one was Jillian Michaels talking about intuitive eating. Which, oh my god … let’s just get Donald Trump talking about sexism. ANNA: That’s a great analogy. SHREEN: She’s basically, I think she’s just gone on the website and just pulled up the principles without doing any research into it or even understanding there’s over a hundred studies done on intuitive eating and there’s a whole book as well. She just went on there, read out these principles and gave her, I guess, her opinion.  ANNA: It became really clear that she hasn’t taken the time to understand it. She hasn’t learnt about the authors; you’ll see as she comes to the end of it, she talks about assuming that it was written by somebody who had just had some bad experience with diet culture, maybe had an eating disorder LOUISE: Oh my god, that’s so disrespectful SHREEN: So disrespectful. ANNA: No understanding or bothering to explore that the authors are actually dietitians who had come up with this approach because they had done so much work with clients who had struggled a lot and this is what they’d learnt from working with them over years and years. LOUISE: These are the gurus. Like, Tribole and Resch, they wrote the initial book Intuitive Eating and it’s just been updated, which is fantastic. But even that, even their book which is written from that perspective of helping people recover from eating disorders, that book is built on another big long history of social justice and fat activism. To not recognise that intuitive eating is part of a social movement and like, the way she presented it is like, she just stumbled across a webpage and … oh my god. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And it came across very, very condescending. I felt really bothered … SHREEN: It’s so harmful, as well. That was the thing that really bothered me the most, was how much … I mean, she causes so much harm anyway, but the message was just next level harm. And if anyone was watching that and had no idea, the things that she was saying … yeah, it’s just not on. LOUISE: Oh god, yikes. So, we thought we would unpick Jillian Michael’s feelpinion to each of the ten principles of intuitive eating. And you guys have written some awesomely detailed notes. ANNA: We had a really good chat about it. LOUISE: Fantastic. But I’m so interested, because you guys both work in this industry as HAES® positive, body inclusive, weight neutral trainers hearing from almost like the personification of diet culture woman. SHREEN: She is the reason why people have so much fitness trauma and so much negative association with fitness. She’s causing that. ANNA: She is the epitome of diet culture. SHREEN: Yeah, she is the epitome of diet culture, for sure. ANNA: And I think we chatted about this as we were hanging out one day, and we just came across this as a topic that fired both of us up. And it’s frustrating when you see … when you’re so heavily involved in this space, and the HAES® space, and the body inclusive space, it can be … and luckily for me working here at Haven, this is the space I come to work every day. So, I’m not exposed to traditional diet culture unless I stumble across it or it’s brought to my attention. So, I couldn’t help but just be really quite wild about this. LOUISE: I love it. I mean, I don’t love that you’re wild, but I kind of do. But, yeah. It’s nice to know that in this industry there are people who feel really strongly about just putting an end to this. She’s what’s wrong with the fitness industry at the moment, and you guys are the future. And I think she can smell that. So, I think, like I … I managed to watch it and still shaking with rage but thank you for this glass of champagne. ANNA: I don’t think we could do this without a little bit of champagne. SHREEN: No, we need some bubbles. LOUISE: The first thing she starts with, so she’s actually going through all the principles. SHREEN:  Correct. LOUISE: Why don’t you give me the lowdown on your reaction. ANNA: Let’s kick off. So, she does go through the points one by one, and the first principle is ‘reject the diet mentality’. And I just want to point out a few things that came up for me that were just so apparent throughout. Her fatphobia is so clear. She’s driven, everything she says, and her approach is all drive by this. And I think she’s very ignorant, like she doesn’t see that there’s an issue with this. She comes form that space where it’s very normalised to shame fat bodies, it’s not okay to be in a bigger body. And she very clearly associates weight and health, they’re so closely tied, which I think it really problematic, obviously. So, in this ‘reject diet mentality’, what came up for you, Shreen? SHREEN: Well, the first thing for me was that she couldn’t distinguish a difference between fad diets and what dieting is, and diet culture. She’s like, “oh you know, if it’s fad diets we’re talking about yeah, yeah sure”, but this is a woman who has sold supplements in the past. LOUISE: She’s sold fad diets. SHREEN: She’s sold fad diets. And she is diet culture, so I guess she can’t … she doesn’t understand what diet culture actually is and why it’s so important to reject it. I mean, diet culture in the US alone is worth 70 billion dollars. ANNA:  She profits off it. SHREEN: She profits off everyone’s insecurities. So, she was just like, “reject diet culture? What’s this, what does this mean?”. And I really did sense there that her insecurity is coming out there because that is her, that’s how she makes her money. ANNA: Well that’s it, she’s really incentivised to support diet culture.  LOUISE: But the distinction that she made between “well, if it’s fad, but if it’s proper” … it just made me laugh, because she’s had no less than four separate lawsuits … ANNA:  Jillian? SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: Launched against her by her consumers who bought her caffeine-fuelled diet pills. ANNA: Which I think she might have … there might have been something on the Biggest Loser where she gave them to contestants unfairly, apparently, as well. LOUISE: Oh my god, scandal on the Biggest Loser. Like … ANNA: Well, the other thing that came up for me there was she said, “what is this, healthy at any size?”, and that’s immediately a red flag representing that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She hasn’t researched this because … I can understand it’s very easy to misconstrue Health At Every Size® for healthy at every size, but it’s quite a different meaning and that assumption that, you know, just assuming that we’re saying as a Health at Every Size® professional that all bodies are healthy, that’s not where we’re aiming. We’re talking about people being able to pursue health regardless of shape and size. LOUISE: Or, also, we’re talking about the choice not to pursue health and to be left the fuck alone. SHREEN: Yeah, there’s no moral obligation. If people want to do so, then it’s up to them. It shouldn’t be … they shouldn’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but that’s what diet culture is saying. ANNA: Your body, your rules. SHREEN: And this part of her rant really, really … we know that she’s incredibly fatphobic and she fat shames, but it just came out so much in that where she was again talking, talking about size 16. And she’s saying “well, you know, if you’re a size 16 of course I love you but you’re not healthy”. Which is just … LOUISE: Get fucked. SHREEN: Yeah, absolute garbage. ANNA: Yeah. And Health at Every Size® also is about respect for all bodies, and I think there is a real lack of respect in just making that assumption. You can’t tell. How does she know what someone’s health is, you know? What their metabolic functions are, their blood work, their social, mental health … you can’t tell that by someone’s size. SHREEN: Genetics, everything. There’s so much, it’s so multifaceted. LOUISE: Everything I think is just far too complicated for her. She has to actually, like … I mean, clearly, she hasn’t read anything or thought about anything. “Nope, that’s a number, that’s an assumption, and don’t challenge that”.  SHREEN: Yeah. And if someone’s watching that, I mean, how triggering. How much harm that one comment could cause somebody that could lead them down a path of dieting and to an eating disorder. ANNA: And especially if they were already vulnerable of somebody who would identify with being in a size 16, or plus. And also, size 16 is quite variable depending on which shop you shop in, you know? Where you get your clothes from. What’s a size anyway? What does it matter? SHREEN: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. LOUISE: Size is not the same as health, and she needs to pull her head in. I wonder if her YouTube videos come with a trigger warning. I don’t think they do, but they should. Because good point, you know, that she … everything she says is potentially a trigger. SHREEN: Especially the size of her audience as well, I’m worried. ANNA: She’s got a big reach still. Some of the comments though were interesting, some really great points. People were talking about intuitive eating and picking up on that she doesn’t understand it, she’s missing the point. LOUISE: That is really reassuring. ANNA: She stopped the comments, she cut them off. LOUISE: Oh no, they were too complicated. ANNA: So, the next principle is ‘honour your hunger’, and she said something pretty radical here. Well, it’s not really radical in the fitness world. These numbers get thrown around a lot. But trigger warning, there are numbers here. She says, “if you’re trying to lose weight, you can keep your body fed on as low as 1200 calories”. And that most women, especially those over, you know, relating to being a certain age, shouldn’t be eating over 1600 calories a day. SHREEN: Which is just absolutely unbelievable. She’s saying that … I mean, that’s what a toddler needs. A toddler needs 1200-1600 calories a day. LOUISE: How very dare she tell me how much I can eat, under a principle that says, ‘honour your hunger’. ANNA: She … on one hand, I’m not surprised she threw those numbers out because those numbers are thrown out all the time in the fitness world. I don’t know where … MyFitnessPal? LOUISE: Are they really? SHREEN: We were saying, MyFitnessPal may have started the whole 1200 calories thing … LOUISE: I think Michelle Bridges is guilty of that too. ANNA: Oh actually, you’re right, she had a program that was based on that. LOUISE: It’s just a nice round number, isn’t it? Let’s just pluck this out of our arse and throw that at all women. ANNA: What I find there though is that like Shreen said, it’s something that a child needs. And I just wanted to double-check that, because I’m not a nutritionist, I’m a yogi and I run a studio, but I wanted to check with somebody who does work with that. I chatted to our non-diet nutritionist Nina and she clarified that yes - this is generalisation - but that kind of number is something that would serve a child. Like, a toddler or a four, five-year-old. And then thinking about the effects of being on a low-calorie diet for a long period, things like loss of menstrual cycle, loss of bone density, fatigue, mood swings, constipation, blood sugar imbalance, stress hormones getting out of whack … SHREEN: Sex drive … ANNA: Sex drive … what did you say before? SHREEN: Dry vagina (laughs). ANNA: She didn’t mention that, did she? SHREEN: No. LOUISE: No, but that might be suffering all of them, you know? And why she’s so grouchy. ANNA: Memory fog and brain fog … memory loss and brain fog. So, these are all things that can be affected by not being adequately fed. And the better indicator of your needs are your body and your internal hunger signals. And we’re taught to … these external sources of just following this rule plan of 1200 calories a day means that if I need more than that – maybe at the time of my period especially I might need much more - and I’m just denying my natural hunger levels. LOUISE: The whole ‘per day’ thing really gives me the shits as well. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s a really good point. LOUISE: This is just a statistical method to help researchers make assumptions about nutrition. It’s not supposed to be something religiously followed. SHREEN: No, there’s no … ANNA: An individual thing, yeah. LOUISE: It’s bizarre. But, isn’t that interesting that even as she’s like, she’s trying desperately, the poor little thing to understand that this is a principle of intuitive eating but she can’t quite get there because she immediately lurches into “well, if you want to lose weight …”. I just felt like reaching through the screen and saying, “realise that intuitive eating is not a weight loss program”. ANNA: That’s half the problem, is that she clearly thinks that the only people who explore intuitive eating are going for weight loss. She says that a few times. LOUISE: Oh, she’s a scrambled egg. ANNA: Yeah. She doesn’t understand that the whole purpose of intuitive eating is more about finding a peaceful relationship with food and your body, not about trying to pursue making your body be something, a certain size. SHREEN: It’s about food freedom, it’s about having a healthy relationship with food, stopping the obsession. It’s not … it’s definitely not following these external rules. It’s about being in tune with what your body wants and needs and getting in touch with those signals. LOUISE: Different planet, I don’t think she’s visited. SHREEN: I don’t think she understands what the ‘honouring hunger’ … it’s a basic self-care need. If you’re not honouring hunger … LOUISE: Again, you’re mentioning a foreign concept here. This is someone who will happily live with a dry vagina, it doesn’t matter. SHREEN: Yep (all laugh). LOUISE: We all went there. SHREEN: She just really doesn’t understand and that is the reason why … people don’t give themselves enough food and they’re following diet plans, and they’re going to give themselves cravings leading to overeating and bingeing, and that’s perfectly normal as well. Other than ‘rejecting the diet mentality’ one of the first steps of intuitive eating is to just honour your hunger and it’s so important. It’s self-care. ANNA: It's so liberating too, if you’re been on the diet bandwagon for many, many years, to recognise that “hey, my body’s got a lot of wisdom, and it’s telling me, it’s giving me messages and I can learn how to reconnect with that”. And I think part of the common thread that comes up with what she says all the time is that … she thinks it’s all about ‘you can’t trust your body’. I think an important thing that I’ve learned is you can really learn how to trust your body. We get into this as we move into the next principle or two. It’s not about endless eating and not being able to, you know, like you’re just not going to go out of control all the time, which is what she sort of thinks. SHREEN: Point number three is that ‘unconditional permission to eat all foods’. LOUISE: She really had a problem with principle three. Like, she was visibly … SHREEN: Yeah, and she started comparing it to smoking, and credit cards, and it’s like …what are you talking about? ANNA: So yeah, this ‘make peace with food’, you’re right. And she talks about saying, talking about the ‘last supper mentality’, and she says, “I’m not religious, I don’t know what Jesus ate”. LOUISE: She really needs to read some books. ANNA: She needs to read Intuitive Eating if she’s going to talk about it. Because if she read it, she might really understand what that means. I thought it was quite clear just from the ‘last supper mentality’, don’t you think? SHREEN: You just eat everything in sight. LOUISE: I don’t even think it has religious connotations, I thought it was like a death row thing. SHREEN: Oh, that’s true … LOUISE: Like eating your last meal. ANNA: That’s right. And it makes sense, I think, if you think about that. You know you’re not going to have something again, so you want to make the most of it in that moment. And ultimately that’s what it’s about. I think that’s kind of clear. But she didn’t understand that, she was sort of like “I don’t like this intense, this hostile approach”. And I’m like, you ARE intense and hostile.  LOUISE: How is that intense and hostile? I’ve not ever read the ten principles of intuitive eating and thought “gosh, that’s angry”. I mean, gosh. Visit the internet, really (all laugh). ANNA: I think she is the, again, the epitome diet culture, and she is the hostile one. Think about the Biggest Loser, she is very aggressive and in-your-face, pushing her clients. So, here she talks about it all being about self-control and willpower, and I think that’s missing the point of intuitive eating completely as well. LOUISE: She just can’t … SHREEN: She doesn’t understand. If she’d read the book, she would understand there’s science behind it as well, if she … LOUISE: I don’t think if she read the book she would understand.  SHREEN: Yeah (laughs) ANNA: I picked up on that too, she’s [inaudible]. LOUISE: She almost yelled “You do not permission to eat”. Which was quite scary. SHREEN: Because I think that reflects her inner narrative. That’s what’s going on in her head. LOUISE: Yeah. Not … not relaxed, that’s for sure. That response to the third point was quite unhinged. ANNA: And like you said, relating the food to credit cards or smoking, that’s a completely different thing. I don’t think … you know, food is something that we rely on, like biologically … SHREEN: We need food to survive, we need food … and intuitive eating is about healing your relationship to food, it’s about having a healthy relationship to food, and you can’t have that if you’re restricting foods. That’s why it’s really important to give yourself unconditional permission to eat. And yeah, it is scary. Of course. It’s scary when you’ve come from that mentality, but it’s the only way for food to lose its power. ANNA: Yeah. And I think it may be a good point to think about how it’s helpful to be handheld through that process. It can sound really scary to somebody who’s new to it, or who hasn’t delved into intuitive eating too much, or worked with a coach or therapist or something. Maybe working with a. dietitian on this would be really helpful. I understand how it can feel like that lack of control, but I think that’s a period that sometimes is part of that healing process. When you let go of the restriction, and allow yourself full unconditional permission to eat, then you might explore some of those foods that were off-limits for a period. And it might feel like you are diving into them a lot. But … LOUISE: Which is perfectly normal. SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: The last supper effect … like, that actually, now I remember. The ‘last supper’ effect, it is the paper by Herman and Polivy, “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we diet”. That’s the ‘last supper’ effect. It’s a perfectly normal psychological response to restriction is to eat more. And the difference between that and going into massive credit card debt is if you keep giving yourself permission to eat, if you keep reminding yourself that the food’s always there, it’s perfectly safe and I’m allowed to eat it, you will naturally settle down when you get food safety. Eating is totally different to compulsive spending on credit cards. I think she’s just … a lot of people freak out when they let go of dieting and get into that all-or-nothing pattern with eating, but there’s like … a real difference between being in an all-or-nothing pattern of eating and adopting intuitive eating and going through that first phase of eating all the food. It’s just different, and its’ not pathological. It’s a normal response to restriction that obviously … she is so restricted and terrified of that. ANNA: It’s all about control, isn’t it? And I think that, you know, talking about the 1200-1600 calories, and I think she refers to that 1600 calories as something you should never, ever go over. So, as a woman, we’re meant to live our lives constantly not going above that. SHREEN: And it’s such a dangerous message. It’s just not enough food, at all. And it’s … and that’s what she’s selling to people, as well … LOUISE: She’s more like ‘honour your restriction’. SHREEN: Yeah! ANNA: We could reverse all of this and create a Jillian Michaels plan. LOUISE: The non-intuitive eating principles. Accept diet culture … what’s the second one? ANNA: Honour your hunger … don’t honour your hunger. LOUISE: Ignore your hunger. SHREEN: Ignore your hunger, yeah. LOUISE: Number three, you do not have permission to eat (all laugh). Alright, principle four? ANNA: Principle four is ‘challenge the food police’. LOUISE: Okay, so hers would be ‘obey the food police’. SHREEN: I don’t think she really understands that she is the food police. When she’s going through it? Like she is … the food police are all the things she’s already talked about. 1200 calories, 1600 calories, these are things that are the food police. ANNA: These are the rules. SHREEN: She doesn’t understand that principle at all. ANNA: The one thing that she said that I did agree with her on was “don’t beat yourself up”. I think she says it in a different way, she means it in a different way, because she kind of adds on and says, “don’t beat yourself up, but don’t fuck up”. Oh sorry. LOUISE:  Please, swear. ANNA: She says, not quite like that, but “maintain balance, it’s all about balance”. And don’t … SHREEN: And self-control. ANNA: So, “don’t beat yourself up, but just don’t do it”, sort of thing. SHREEN: Or, “you can do better”. She always says that, “you can do better”. ANNA: Yeah, so that message is like, it’s still that sort of shaming approach. SHREEN: Condescending. LOUISE: It makes no sense whatsoever. ANNA: But don’t beat yourself up, I mean, that’s important. LOUISE: You know what, ‘don’t beat yourself up’ means she knows people are not going to be able to do it.  ANNA: That’s a good point, yeah. Yeah, which she talks about the… LOUISE: … about going straight back to jail. ANNA: She talks about the stats, which is interesting. She brings up the stats. LOUISE: Oh, the stats. Yeah, that bit made me itchy. ANNA: That’s coming. It’s coming. The next one is ‘discover the satisfaction factor’, which I think she was actually in agreement with. SHREEN: Yeah, that one … she was saying, food for pleasure … I think that one was almost okay. ANNA: Like wow, okay, we agree. And then six was ‘feel your fullness’. And what came up here was again, it was just clear she hasn’t read the book because she didn’t understand that concept at all. LOUISE: She probably doesn’t know what fulness feels like. SHREEN: And then she started talking about how it’s in your head, and kind of went off … even I got a little bit lost with what she was saying. Like, “oh, we’re on fullness principle? I thought we were …” ANNA: She was kind of saying, yeah, she was kind of saying that if you’re not listening to your body, you’re not picking up your fullness levels, there’s something messed up in your head. And I was thinking, you know what? Sometimes I eat food and I’m quite satisfied physically but I’m still eating because the food’s really good, or I don’t want to … I’m eating in company and I don’t want to finish the meal and want to show that I’ve appreciated it … SHREEN: That’s the thing with intuitive eating, that it’s not the ‘hunger/fullness’ diet. And eating past fullness is normal. It’s totally okay. And it’s not just about eating, you know, getting in touch with your fullness signals. It’s about eating foods that give you pleasure and satisfaction. ANNA: Which is the ‘discover the satisfaction factor’. SHREEN: Which is the next one, but yeah. (sighs). LOUISE: God. So, if you can’t feel fullness, there’s something psychologically wrong with you.  ANNA: That’s the message that she’s giving, yeah. SHREEN: But not understanding that if you’re dieting or especially if you’re only eating those dangerous amount of calories a day, you’re going to be absolutely … LOUISE: You mean, like an adult [inaudible] SHREEN: (laughs). Absolutely starving and of course you’re not going to feel your fullness. But there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s just your body. Your body is doing exactly what it is meant to do. It needs food. ANNA: She doesn’t see that 1200-1600 calories as a restriction. She sees it as like … SHREEN: That’s her normal. ANNA: That’s food, that’s what you’re allowed during the day. LOUISE: So depressing. ANNA: Pretty sure I eat double or triple that. LOUISE: Oh, my goodness. ANNA: So, we’re at number seven. We’re still only … oh, over halfway. ‘Cope with your emotions with kindness’.  SHREEN: I think the thing is … LOUISE: That doesn’t really bring her to my mind. SHREEN: Yeah. She kind of goes “oh, yeah, I agree with this, but it shouldn’t just be one paragraph …”. And I’m like YES, there’s a BOOK. A book! There’s a whole book to go with this.  ANNA: She clearly seems to think it’s just this very basic, you know, overview … SHREEN: Guidelines. ANNA: Yeah, just these ten principles. She hasn’t read the book; she doesn’t know who wrote it. LOUISE: No, but this one really shat me to tears. Because this is where she’s saying that she’s had some childhood history with being maybe fractionally larger than someone else and has had to do, like … basically what she’s saying is that if you cannot lose weight and keep it off forever, that is your psychological fault. SHREEN: Yep. LOUISE: You haven’t done the work in therapy to fix your seemingly not thin body. Which is like, such a load of bullshit. And just unscientific and not sound whatsoever. And like you were saying before, people … she doesn’t understand that food is a relationship, and it’s a complex relationship. And the refusal to see anything other than like … she doesn’t even mention hunger as a reason to eat. Anything other than eating to a calorie control, anything else is incorrect. And we eat for an infinite amount of reasons and all of them make sense. And that’s what I love about intuitive eating, it doesn’t pathologise eating. It doesn’t pathologise hunger, it doesn’t pathologise fullness, and it doesn’t pathologise emotions as a reason to eat. And she clearly is. Seeing the function of how wonderful sometimes binge eating is as a way of protecting yourself from [inaudible] stuff. There’s no pathologizing in intuitive eating, but she’s full of pathologizing thinking that even to read statements like this, it doesn’t sink in. ANNA: She’s oversimplifying the whole thing; she doesn’t understand it at all. And this is where she moves into talking about the percentage of people that are successful versus not successful at diets. SHREEN: So, she acknowledges that 95-98% of diets fail. Is this where she starts talking about the Biggest Loser? ANNA: Yeah. SHREEN: She then starts talking about how the Biggest Loser, there’s a 30% extra success rate if you follow the Biggest Loser method. LOUISE: Really? SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: So, she basically says, she acknowledges that the studies are very clear that 95% of people are unable to sustain a diet or sustain that weight loss, not a diet. But she says that actually on the Biggest Loser it’s only 65% of people that fail. So actually … SHREEN: So, she’s basically saying “we’ve got this success rate, if you do this …” LOUISE: Which study is this published in? Because the only study I’ve read from season 1 which is the … ANNA: The six-year study? SHREEN: The six year, yeah, really interesting. LOUISE: There were 16 people, and 14 of them regained. I don’t think that equates to 65%. Am I …? ANNA: I don’t know but even so … no, she says 35. So, 30% more than … she says 30%, 35% are successful. SHREEN: But even the fact that she’s now saying that 95-98% of diets fail, and she acknowledges that, but all that she’s been talking about is dieting. Diet the whole way through. She’s just completely contradicting herself. ANNA: Not only is it that they don’t work, but she continues to spruik it, continues to say that it’s possible, and if you do it her way, the Biggest Loser way … they did 7 hours of exercise a day, with gruelling regimes and being pushed and yelled at … LOUISE: And they all put the weight back on. ANNA: They put the weight back on. SHREEN: yeah. LOUISE: And their resting metabolic rate was screwed, six years later. SHREEN: Yeah, 700 calories it decreased by. They lost lean body mass, their fasting glucose increased, their blood sugar levels, yeah. They were the main things. But the fact that their metabolic rate decreased by such a large amount … especially where we were saying, she’s telling people to only eat 1200 calories but then you’re going to follow the Biggest Loser method, your metabolic rate’s going to drop by 700 calories, then what are you going to do? LOUISE: So, she lied about the stats on the Biggest Loser, and she’s not even talking to people about the metabolic impact. Because that study was fascinating, and I talk to clients about it. Because they predicted, the researchers predicted how much their resting metabolic rate would be dropped by …  ANNA: And what did they … LOUISE: And they found out it was even lower. So, they were worse off metabolically than they had predicted six years later. No one expected it to last that long, to have such a devastating impact. ANNA: Yeah, so it’s like a continued effect. It hasn’t regained back to before, pre … LOUISE: Exactly. And when stuff like that is suppressed, we know people are going to experience intense hunger, which of course you can’t honour. SHREEN: And the thing is, again, she’s completely misquoted this study herself but if she’d done her research she would know that there’s been over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done that show you have better body image, higher esteem, improved metabolism, decreased rates of disordered and emotional eating, diminished stress levels and increased satisfaction with life. That’s over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done. ANNA: And I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t say the same, with all of those positive effects, with dieting. LOUISE:  No, especially the ones that use her supplements, which show that everyone puts the weight back on. And the Biggest Loser study, everyone puts the weight back on … but let’s not focus on whether or not the weight comes back on. It’s actually the damage to the body and the metabolic systems that’s just absent from her rant. SHREEN: And not even the psychological damage, that’s not even mentioned. LOUISE: She’s evidence of the psychological damage. SHREEN: Yeah. That is true, yeah. ANNA: So, the next one is … principle eight, respect your body. LOUISE: Oh, fuck. ANNA: So, I think going back to when she spoke about size 16 always equalling healthiness, I think that shows that she doesn’t have respect for all bodies. And that kind of bothers me a bit. SHREEN. A bit. A lot. ANNA: It’s a big part of like, you know, our approach here and being a Health at Every Size® professional, you know? It’s about honouring and understanding and respecting that all bodies are different and need something different. SHREEN: And that you can’t tell somebody’s health by their body size, and that’s such … it’s a huge misconception as it is, let alone, I mean, Jillian Michaels saying this and it’s just … ANNA: Yeah, and just recognising that bodies are diverse, and they will do different things. Your health looks different at different points in your life. What you need changes day to day, and only your body really knows. You know? No external source, no trainer, no Jillian Michaels, no Dr Oz, nobody knows your body. SHREEN: And the whole principle of respecting your body is about being kind to yourself and compassionate and self-care, which is the complete opposite of Jillian Michaels. Like, she is just not kind. She’s not compassionate. She’s just shaming, judgemental, mean. Like … yeah. She’s … I just don’t think she even understands the word ‘respect’, quite frankly. LOUISE: Unless it’s like ‘respect my authority”. SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: Something I noticed too, that came up before, was that because she’s so invested in it … have you heard of the concept of religion, like dieting? The religion of dieting? She’s so completely invested in it, she’s almost not willing to look the other way, or explore that there might be some truth in this, because she’s so invested, like financially and that’s her way of living … LOUISE: It’s her identity. ANNA: Exactly. LOUISE: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think Alan Levinovitz, ‘The Gluten Lie’ … ANNA: That’s the guy. LOUISE: He talks about this, the religion of diet mentality. She is definitely the Pope. SHREEN: Quote of the day (all laugh). ANNA: So, then we come into ‘movement, feel the difference’. Which is principle nine. SHREEN: I think this one really got us fired up, didn’t it? ANNA: Well, the first thing that she said was like, “what is this? I don’t know what this ‘militant exercise’ even means”. LOUISE: That’s so funny (all laugh). ANNA: Like, really? Are you sure? LOUISE: She’s like, world-famous on memes for [inaudible]. I think I even did a presentation once where I used her with her finger in her face at someone as a demonstration of militant exercise. ANNA: Yeah, the kind of exercise that you don’t want to do if you want to have a sustainable relationship with movement. LOUISE: Yeah, your name’s on the t-shirt, love. SHREEN: Just telling people in this thing that, you know, this myth that’s just not true – ‘no pain, no gain’, that only hard exercise counts, it’s just utter rubbish. All movement counts, it doesn’t matter what it is. From playing with your kids, to hoovering, to dancing around your living room. LOUISE: Hoovering doesn’t count, I don’t even know what hoovering is … ANNA: She’s talking about hoovering, the hoover … SHREEN: Vacuuming, is that more Aussie? LOUISE: No, I don’t understand. (all laugh). SHREEN: But like, movement can be anything and you get the exact same health benefits from any type of regular movement, doesn’t matter what it is. But what she’s just trying to … she’s just bringing movement and aesthetics, that’s what she’s talking about. She’s talking about … ANNA: That’s a really good point, because if she was really interested in somebody’s health, then any kind of movement would be accessible, you know, like … SHREEN: Beneficial. ANNA: Helpful, yeah. SHREEN: Your blood markers, and stress levels, and sleep, it doesn’t matter what it is, it has the same health benefits. But she’s not talking about health. She’s talking about the way you look. ANNA: Yeah. She’s talking about ‘results’ a lot, and “if you want to get results fast” … because you know, let’s face it, she says “if you’re coming to look at intuitive eating, you’re trying to lose weight, you’re trying to get results fast.” LOUISE: Jillian! ANNA: “You’ve got to do a certain type of exercise, and my programs do that”. So, a little bit of spruiking her own programs too. SHREEN: What she doesn’t realise that she’s doing is having that negative relationship with exercise is not going to make people want to do it.  LOUISE: She doesn’t care about that. SHREEN: She’s the reason why people don’t want to go to the gym, or they hate exercise, because of people like Jillian Michaels. ANNA: Yeah, it’s that fitness trauma that you were talking about before. And what I recognise here, at the studio at Haven, community … in my experience, community has always been really powerful in building that sustainable and healthful relationship with movement. Joy and … SHREEN: And it’s that you enjoy, you [inaudible]. ANNA: And to want to come back, too. And that militant approach might work well for someone who responds to that but maybe for a short time. And then that motivation kind of wanes. And then it’s always trying to get back the motivation, you hear that a lot in fitness culture. But if you’re not coming at it from external, an external place, for external purposes, and it’s more about the … SHREEN: The way it makes you feel, using it as a tool for self-care rather than punishment … ANNA: Your mental health, having fun with your friends, it’s a completely different experience to being yelled at by Jillian Michaels. SHREEN: Her whole thing is yelling at people, making them feel guilty, punishing them. Like, and that’s just not what people need in a fitness professional. They need someone who is kind and compassionate and she’s just … that’s just not her, unfortunately. She’s just giving … ANNA: What is she? She’s the Pope of … the religion of dieting. She’s also the epitome of diet culture. She’s all of those things. And then the last principle is gentle nutrition, principle ten. LOUISE: I think this actually blew up her brain. SHREEN: Yeah, because she couldn’t understand the whole diet … principle one, principle ten … LOUISE: She couldn’t figure out how that fits with unconditional permission to eat. Because of course, if you have unconditional permission to eat, you’re going to stick your face into a burger for the rest of your life.  ANNA: Yeah, so again she thinks it’s all just endless eating. LOUISE: She’s stuck in that ‘all or nothing’ mentality. ANNA: Exactly, yeah. SHREEN: It’s funny, because she talks about that ‘black and white, all or nothing’ mentality and not understanding that’s exactly what she’s saying. Yeah. ANNA: Yeah, and again it came up just very, very clear that she hasn’t read the book, she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. SHREEN: Yeah, I think that’s the main … ANNA: This is when she said, you know, “it’s probably written by someone who has just really been hurt by diet culture and probably had an eating disorder, and, you know, probably just some random” and actually … LOUISE: Such a shame that she didn’t actually look at the author. SHREEN: Yeah, just even look up to who they were. Yeah. ANNA: It’s a little bit disappointing because you’d think somebody who has such a following, I think, has such a … I think there’s a moral obligation in a way to represent something that … when you have such a big following and you’re sharing something that can affect people deeply … SHREEN: It’s what we say, that she’s really coming from that dieting mentality and all that sort of shaming that she doesn’t understand that intuitive eating at its core is a self-care model. It’s very compassionate and she doesn’t understand that. Also. with intuitive eating, we’re not saying that it’s a solution for everybody. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body. She just doesn’t understand the concept at all, what it stands for. ANNA: It’s like she’s on such a different planet, and it’s not … doesn’t come across as open to exploring that this might be something that really serves people. SHREEN: Yeah, and that it’s having such a positive impact. We talked about earlier with the … ANNA: Feeling a bit threatened by the impact on her, you know, her … LOUISE: To her bottom line. I also think that, I mean, if she really is undernourished to that point that she has restricted her entire life, one of the things that happens when you’re weight supressed is cognitive rigidity. ANNA: That’s a really good point. LOUISE: So, it’s quite hard to be flexible. We see that a lot with people who are suffering in the depths of Anorexia, that you simply cannot think. And perhaps there’s an element of that that’s happening here. ANNA: That’s really interesting. SHREEN: That’s a really good point. Because what dieting, that kind of restriction is doing to you … LOUISE: Well, it gives her massive benefits. Huge amounts of recognition, it gives her income. She can’t think out of it. So, there’s not a lot of reason for her, like … I think the reason for putting up that video wasn’t a genuine exploration of “what’s this thing called ‘intuitive eating’?”.  SHREEN: It was just to … LOUISE: It was just to kind of … ANNA: Debunk it. LOUISE: To debunk it and keep hold of her customer base. Look, let’s assume that she is interested in the book. Jillian Michael’s house is in Malibu, California. I reckon we just whack a copy in an envelope, address it to her, maybe she’ll read it. ANNA: Do you think?  LOUISE: Yeah? I don’t know. Maybe if all of our listeners whack a copy into an envelope … SHREEN: Yeah!  LOUISE: 20 copies, please read. Maybe. SHREEN: Maybe, yeah. LOUISE: But I don’t think that was anything other than a … it’s quite interesting, I’m seeing this more and more. The famous people, the people who have really invested in diet culture, even the obesity researchers and all of that. They’re all kind of getting a little bit nervous about this pushback. SHREEN: They should be. LOUISE: It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. SHREEN: It’s time. LOUISE: It’s got nothing to do with the champagne. I think the celebs are getting nervous, like “what do you mean, people in larger bodies are okay with themselves just the way they are?”. And finding non weight-loss things to look after themselves, oh my gosh. What a huge, horrible threat. So, we’re not sorry, Jillian, that we made you nervous. ANNA: Agreed. I hope it gives her a little bit of food for thought (all laugh). LOUISE: I don’t know how many calories would be attached to that thought (all laugh). ANNA: I have to say, like, the thing that I think fires me up the most is how fatphobic she is. SHREEN: And how much harm … that’s the thing that fired me up the most, how much harm she’s causing people out there. And having had an eating disorder myself, it’s just … LOUISE: Horrible. You can see how triggering it is. SHREEN: I can see what it can do, yeah. That’s what fires me up. LOUISE: and let’s not forget when we say fatphobic, we mean people who hate fat people. And that is really reflective … even though she is professing “oh, I’m going to love you … but you’re unhealthy so change”. That’s troubling. Using health as a halo, an excuse or a reason for my core treatment of you just based on your appearance. And that’s just … those days are done. You can’t do that anymore. It’s just not cool. And I do wonder if there is like a Biggest Loser university somewhere?  ANNA: Michelle Bridges went to it as well. LOUISE: Because the same kind of hatred of fat people, you know … again, like masked with a thin layer of concern trolling for your health was Michelle Bridges’ thing. Four years ago, when she was on Australian Story and she was saying “I’m yet to meet someone who is morbidly obese and happy”. So, for people who are listening from overseas, Michelle Bridges is the Australian version of Jillian Michaels. And what an awful comment. So, Jillian has been pushed back against from this video, right? Michelle was pushed back against from this video too, with really clear … I know we all live in a bubble, but with quite a lot of push back. ANNA: That’s good. Was she on … was that on like Australian primetime TV? SHREEN: She was on Australian Story. LOUISE: Yeah [inaudible] … it shows how deeply she feels [inaudible] about people she’s profiting from. Putting them through three cycles a year of 1200 calorie program and she knows it doesn’t work. But the thing is, what they do is they double down. People like this double down, when they’re called out, when there’s a pushback. Instead of kind of opening up and say, “okay, I should probably issue an apology, maybe take the video down, maybe do some work”. They’re not doing that. Jillian’s not doing that. ANNA: I think she just keeps responding. And she’s just responding with the same rhetoric, so she’s not … SHREEN: I think she kind of comments that [inaudible], to learn about it more, which is a shame. ANNA: And how did Michele Bridges respond? LOUISE: Doubled down on it. About health, “I care deeply about health”. ANNA: The whole thing with health and weight, this is what really frustrates me about it too. If she’s really interested in health, she could support all the behaviours that support someone’s health. LOUISE: Too complicated. Remember? Too complicated. Anything that actually involves having to think about something other than my own diet plan … ANNA: It makes me realise how happy I’ve become in moving away from all this, that’s why I got away from it. Because I learned about how there’s another way. Intuitive eating, Health at Every Size®, the body positivity movement … I started delving into it and it just felt so triggering being around other fitness professionals from the traditional approach. And this here, I’ve got to say, got me so fired up. I’m going to be fired up for a while from this. SHREEN: We talk about fitness trauma, and Jillian Michaels is causing that. LOUISE: May she go the way of the dinosaurs and … (all laugh). ANNA: Well, hopefully there will be less and less of her to be seen in the future and more and more of kind of this messaging coming up, challenging … LOUISE: Absolutely, I absolutely think that’s going to happen. You’ve just reminded me actually, she … because Jillian, earlier in the year before she posted the nasty intuitive eating thing, she said something nasty about Lizzo. SHREEN: Yeah, of course.  ANNA: That sounds familiar … SHREEN: Yeah. That was before …  LOUISE: A little while before, I don’t know. It’s Covid, none of us have a timeline. ANNA: She’s said some pretty horrendous things. SHREEN: Really horrendous things yeah. LOUISE: Again, like … “she’s clearly going to get diabetes” or something? ANNA: I think she said something along the lines of “there’s nothing sexy about diabetes”, or clogged arteries or something.  SHREEN: Something like that, yeah. ANNA: How can she … that’s so inappropriate. Lizzo’s bouncing away on stage. She’s got stamina, she’s got energy.  SHREEN: We don’t know anything about her or her health. ANNA: And why do we have to talk about that anyway? She’s this amazing performer and doing this really cool stuff. It’s wonderful to see some diverse bodies out there that are getting out there as much as the other, the thin ideal that you see everywhere. LOUISE: Yeah, the comments that she made were like “why are we talking about Lizzo’s body, we should be talking about her music”. ANNA: So, she said that? LOUISE: Yeah. ANNA: But then … LOUISE: And it’s really funny, because she’s saying that we shouldn’t be talking about Lizzo’s body, but her entire website is full of shots of her body. ANNA: Yeah, and that’s her thing. SHREEN: That’s her thing, yeah. ANNA: She’s always talking about people’s bodies. Size 16, yeah. SHREEN: Yeah, non-stop. LOUISE: The point I’m making is that you don’t say that about Lizzo. And the pushback she got after she made that comment? This is the future Jillian. Lizzo is setting the world on fire.  ANNA: We need more Lizzo. SHREEN: We need more Lizzo. LOUISE: and you are the biggest loser. ANNA: Well put. LOUISE: Oh my god, let’s finish on a high note. Thank you, guys, that was an elegant unpacking of Jillian Michael’s ten principles of not understanding intuitive eating (all laugh). And how firmly we can steer the ship to this new awesome way of looking after our body. ANNA: Thank you. SHREEN: Thank you.  Resources Mentioned: (Watch if you can stomach) Jillian Michaels' Igno-rant on Youtube Urbszat, Dax, C. Peter Herman, and Janet Polivy. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet: Effects of anticipated deprivation on food intake in restrained and unrestrained eaters." Journal of abnormal psychology 111.2 (2002): 396. News article about 4 lawsuits against Jillian Michaels for her weight loss pills Fothergill, Erin, et al. "Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition." Obesity 24.8 (2016): 1612-1619. Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven Find out more about Shreen El Masry and Be You Be Free  

Durée : 3:10 - Cette semaine, les élèves de la section internationale de CM2 de l'école Anatole de Monzie à Nantes nous présentent leurs chroniques spéciales Halloween ! Et en anglais s'il-vous-plaît ! Ils interviendront régulièrement à l'antenne pour nous apprendre un peu d'anglais sur des thématiques spécifiques. Vous avez aimé la chronique ? Retrouvez leur texte ci-dessous : Anna : Hello ! We are Camille, Elina & Anna ! Elina : Aujourd’hui, nous recevons un invité très spécial, un fantôme nommé Clown Bob. Ecoutez bien ! Anna : Now, we have a special guest. He is a little bit scary but he is ok ! Avant cela, un peu de vocabulaire pour bien comprendre : - favourite : préféré - the ceiling : le plafond - to leave : partir, quitter - so far : jusqu’ici   Elina : What is your name ? Camille : My name is Clown Bob. Elina : How old are you ? Camille : I am 3 818 years old. Elina : What is your favourite colour ? Camille : My favourite colours are black and red. Elina : Where do you live ? Camille : I live in Ghostland. Elina : What is your favourite sport ? Camille : My favourite sport is running on the ceiling. Elina : What is your favourite holiday ? Camille : My favourite holiday is Halloween of course. Because I can leave Ghostland and visit a lot of people... Elina : What is your favourite number ? Camille : My favourite number is 718. It is the number of children I have scared so far !! Anna : Thank you for coming, Clown Bob. Have a nice day. Well, there you had an interview with a ghost ! Elina : C’était l’interview exclusive de Clown Bob, merci d’être venu répondre à nos questions !  

In this episode I chat to Jenny, businesswoman, investor and former Dragon. We discuss tips for investment in the time of COVID-19, exit planning and whether your business should still be accepting cash. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on raising capital and choosing the right payment system. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Jenny Campbell's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Jenny Campbell, businesswoman, speaker, investor and former Dragon. Rather than going down the traditional education route, Jenny left school at 16 to become a cash counter and cashpoint filler. She worked her way up in the banking world and by the age of 23 she earned her banking qualifications and a Chartered Institute of Bankers prize. Her first taste of running a business was when she bought RBS-owned cash machine firm, Hanco, which she rebranded as YourCash Europe. At the time, Hanco had expanded too quickly and was making a loss. The company underwent a major operational restructure overseen by Jenny. In 2016 she sold the business for £50m. During her time on Dragon’s Den, Jenny invested in companies including Didsbury Gin, Look After My Bills, Driven Media and Carun UK. These days, she is the vice chair of the Prince’s Trust Enterprise Fellowship Programme and supports the Young Enterprise and the New Entrepreneurs Foundation. She’s also a dog breeder and an accredited breed judge. Anna: Hi Jenny. Jenny: Hi. Anna: How are you doing? Jenny: I’m really good, thank you. Really good. Anna: Great. OK, let’s get cracking. One of your mantras is to live by corporate standards but breathe like an entrepreneur. Tell us a bit more about what you mean by that. Jenny: Yeah, that really came out of the time when I was taking over the cash machine business then owned by RBS. I found the business to have got enormous growing pains [from] when it was incorporated in 2000 and sold to RBS in 2004. It had grown enormously fast and it did have an impressive customer and asset base, but it had grown up on very simple – if any – policies, procedures, people, codes of conduct, etc. So, the business I came to in 2006 was in quite a lot of chaos, to be honest. But I found that all the skills I’d learned over my banking career, which you don’t really appreciate at the time, but I could apply them to this business, particularly around change management, turnaround scenarios, risk management, process mapping – all those corporate things. I could apply them to this business and that’s what got me through the first two years in getting it ship shape. It was losing a lot of money at the time and by the time we got two or three years down the path it was breaking even and that lead into the management buyout. On reflection, when it came to selling the business, before that even became a management team buyout, I said to RBS, ‘Look, you’ve helped put the corporate procedures into this business but it now needs to have its entrepreneurial wings in order for it to be nimble and compete against its competitors in the UK.’ It’s important for a business of that size to have corporate standards, but it also needed to be nimble in terms of decision-making and innovation and product development, which we weren’t at that stage by still being part of a bank, due to how bureaucratic that can be in a big corporate.       How do you introduce ‘entrepreneurial wings’, so to speak? Jenny: Start with the people. One of my big transformations was the people – the quality of the people, the culture of the people. I turned over a lot of people in the early days, those who didn’t have the right skills or attitude to drive the business forward. I created a real people culture in the business: work hard, play hard, lots of rewards for delivering performance, lots of fun as well. And the ability for the staff to feel they had their own initiative to drive the business forward [was important]. You could always put your hand up to suggest this or get on with doing things and mistakes were made – you wouldn’t get berated for that – it was, ‘Get up, you’ve grazed your knees, let’s move on’. It was a real ‘can do, will do, want to’ attitude in the business and we lived it and breathed it from the top, right the way down.      On your time in Dragon’s Den, perhaps it was clearer that you’d come from this corporate background and moved up in the banking world, as opposed to starting up a business from scratch like some of the other Dragons and the other businesses coming in. What do you feel your experience brought to the table over the other Dragons who had started their businesses from nothing? Jenny: I came to pure entrepreneurship myself later in life when I went to Hanco (which then became YourCash), so I was in my mid-40s by then. But as I reflected on how I turned from corporate career to entrepreneur, some of my reflections were, firstly, around my childhood where my grandparents were all entrepreneurs – builders, printers, etc. in my local town, so I came from quite an entrepreneurial background. Yes, I went into a profession, but that was seen in those generations as safer and more secure and you’ve got the pensions and all of that good stuff. But I also dealt with entrepreneurs almost every day in my banking career, just on the other side of the desk. One of my roles was as a business relationship manager and I had 200 clients out in the community. Everything from famers to builders to lorry driver to retailers. I was working alongside those entrepreneurs for all of my banking career, so I just felt like I’d stepped from one side of the desk to the other, to be honest – and it’s in my DNA. What did you find was the biggest difference of going from one world into the other?     Jenny: Freedom, scary, exciting. You realise that there’s a lot that rests on your shoulders. The first month after we’d bought the business out, instead of me receiving a salary cheque on the 18th, I had to think about paying a quarter of a million pounds’ worth of wages every month and you feel responsible for people’s homes and families and that sort of thing. But equally, all of the freedom that comes with that and the responsibility to keep that business going and grow it.     Coming back to Dragon’s Den. Look After My Bills, in your own words, ‘negotiated hard’. What advice would you have for business owners who are looking for funding but are that sort of position? What negotiation tips do you have and what would win you over? Jenny: I think what wins me and many investors over is that, besides investing in that business and that product, you are ultimately investing in that person or persons. With the people standing in front of you, I’ve got to get a rapport with them straight away – that I admire them, I believe them, I’m confident that they can deliver on their proposal. The boys, Will and Henry from Look After My Bills, did negotiate hard, but that showed me that they had the experience to do that. I admire that. One of my other entrepreneurs accepted my offer before I’d even finished making it, but he was much younger and much more inexperienced. Will and Henry did a great job of negotiating and Tej (Lalvani) and I got a very small slice of Look After My Bills, but it proved to be a great investment as they sold to GoCompare ten months later and we got a very nice return on a very small investment. Anna: I think it’s interesting that because of them not budging much on their offer, Peter said that it shows a certain level of naivety, so it must be quite different between investors.     Jenny: Yes, but there’s quite a bit of gameplay in the negotiations – you’ve all got to play your own part. There’s admiration behind that hard negotiation stance as well. As an entrepreneur you’ve got to have some emotional intelligence as to where that tipping point is with the investor. You can push them so far, but you’ve got to realise where you’ll lose that investor, where they just going to sign out and say, ‘I’m out’.     Let’s come back to raising finance. Of course, we’re going through a difficult time at the moment – this is the first of the remote recordings we’re doing because of COVID-19. What advice do you have about raising finance in particularly tough times such as these?   Jenny: Is it any different in these times to pre-COVID? If anything, there are more options because of Microbusiness Bounce Back Loans etc around, so my advice is probably the same: cover a lot of bases in looking for those options. First of all, think about the structure of what it is that you’re looking for – are your able to take any debt into the business? That’ll save you giving away equity. Equally, sometimes it’s a strategic thing to find an equity investor because you get smart investors in the business who will help to propel your business further than if you were trying to do it through the existing equity structure. It’s always a balance of what your business can take and what it needs and that strategic aspect. I’m working with one of my businesses now on doing our first fundraise. I’m just educating them on taking those steps really carefully, to find the right structure of equity and debt and, crucially, the right people to come into the business. I always say to them, ‘This is like a snooker game: it’s not just about getting the first red ball down, but it’s about getting the black ball down, which is your exit.’ Every step is fundraise is important – you must think about how that impacts the next step and your eventual exit. But I think all those usual funding routes are there and, if anything, there is pent up demand from private equity and VCs to get money invested right now. Has COVID-19 affected the way that you invest in or the companies that you’d be interested in investing in now? Jenny: I don’t think it’s affected the way that I invest. Apart from not meeting in person, we’ve all got very used to tiled Zoom screens or Teams or Google. We’ve all got used to those virtual meetings, so the way in which I invest has not changed. Maybe where I invest has changed. Some areas you might have thought of investing in pre-COVID, but in post-COVID they’re either not the right areas or there are certainly better areas which have capitalised on COVID. I always say that wherever there are challenges, there are opportunities, and it’s just watching which ones will rise out of this. My Didsbury Gin business pivoted into hand sanitiser and they’ve done a fantastic job. Did I think I’d ever be invested in hand sanitiser? No! But it was the right thing to do and they’ve done very well. Anna: It’s been very much extremes – either a company has done very well or struggled quite significantly. Jenny: But that’ll be the true test of the entrepreneur in dealing with that. My eldest son has three restaurants in London, and it has not been an easy time. However, he’s probably going to come out of this leaner, fitter, stronger and with a different strategic path, which will actually be a better one. You as an entrepreneur have personally got to have the resilience, the foresight and the vision to deal with that. And that’s what the key strength of an entrepreneur is. Anna: And going digital has helped a lot of businesses. Ones that didn’t have a website before are very quickly learning and moving online. Jenny: Yes – you’ve got to go where the consumer is going to go which is a huge shift to online as you say.    I’d like to ask a couple of questions about your views in business. I’ve read that your plan wasn’t to become a business owner, rather, you ‘take things when they arise’ and when your children were young, you’d ‘just think about the year ahead’, contrary to popular business advice of planning one, three, five years in advance. What’s your view on planning vs spontaneity in business? Jenny: I mean, I always say that when I was 16, 18, 25, I didn’t really see much further ahead than the next year. As you get older, you tend to plan your runway out a bit more. But it’s always a balance for a business owner of never losing sight of today and the detail you need to do of today while balancing that with a vision of the future. And that’s a tricky thing sometimes – you can be lost in the weeds on a day-to-day basis and never have that time to think about the future. But you can find different places to do that future thinking. I remember when I was very busy in YourCash with the turnaround work. Where my vision and strategy used to come from was when I was on the running machine at the gym in the evening or in the bath. I used to come back fuelled with what we need to do differently, so you just need to find those spaces to let your head clear and think about the future of the business. You must do that and not just be lost in the day-to-day. Now I think I plan much further ahead, hence it’s actually driven my exit of YourCash because I’d been at the business for ten years. And I had half an eye on where cash was going as well in the future which proved to be quite prophetic. And equally I wanted another ten years in business doing other things, so focusing on the end game is quite important.      My next question was going to be about your exit from YourCash. Talk us through your exit plan – when did it begin, how did it unfold, did it change? Jenny: When you reflect on these things, again, I think it happened on the day I did the management buyout in 2010. The reason for that was as soon as the business became independent from RBS, I straight away started getting courted by other independents to amalgamate with them, so I realised from day one of year one that there was an opportunity for a trade sale. But I knew it wasn’t going to be right then when I put all of my energy and passion into buying this business out and mortgaged my home and I was on a journey and I was going to sell at an optimum time. But knowing those courtiers were out there, I played that dance with them for five years and it eventually reeled one of them in there for an exit. So there, you can see I was planning, even in 2010, to exit, probably five to six years down the path, which is what I did. I think in any market, I’ve seen in the supermarkets, in industry, etc. I’d say all businesses compete on the ground. But at top level, CEOs all meet each other at conventions and industry gatherings, and all have quite a professional and grown up relationship. I always had those relationships with the bosses of the other businesses and there were always muted conversations, seeing if there were any areas of cooperation and synergies between us. There’s a lot of dancing around handbags before you come to the formal marriage. Anna: I suppose it’s like networking of any kind, isn’t it? You’ve got to build it up quite slowly. Jenny: And it’s important to do that. That’s a really good point – I had extensive networks across my industry, not just in the UK but across the globe. I would take plane trips across the globe to go to certain conventions to make sure I had face time with people, so I was out there and present and had a really good black book.     Finally, given your background with YourCash, what do you make of cash vs contactless, especially in this COVID-19 landscape? Is it still worth it for businesses to accept cash? Jenny: Before I sold the business, there was also a challenge externally around the future of cash. And I think cash is still here for another generation in this country. It’s very entrenched in this country as it is in other countries such as Ireland and Germany. Yet if you look at other countries like the Nordics, they’ve been almost cashless for a very long time so where do we sit in all of this? I still think there’s a place for cash in the UK for a while because I don’t think we have all of the systems to donate to charities, to pay for certain things for the elderly and the disadvantaged, so all of the systems aren’t there yet to digitally support moving to totally non-cash. I do think there is a place for it and, to that end, that it’s important for retailers and businesses to accept cash, because not everyone is able or ready to move to digital. The consumers have to be educated and cajoled but not forced, if you know what I mean. Yeah, of course it’s important in terms of budgeting or for people who may not be best able to manage their money. Do you think we’ll ever go completely cashless and if so, at what point? Jenny: [laughs] Crystal ball again… I think we will, it depends how you define cashless, if you mean totally cashless. Surely in the next 25 years we’d go cashless, I would’ve thought, providing all of the systems are there to cope with that. But if you look at the young people of today, they just don’t carry cash – at all. And I myself would have always had cash with me and never have I used Apple Pay so much as in the past three months, and I’m much more comfortable with it now. That has forced buying habits but equally, I doubt very much that older people have changed their buying habits and the disadvantaged need to work with cash as well. Anna: Well, I’ll wrap up there unless there’s anything you’d like to add. Jenny: No, thank you for letting me come on your podcast. I’m delighted to come on any time and have a chat and happy to do it any other time you wish. Anna: Thank you for coming on the podcast. You can find out more about Jenny at jennybcampbell.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on raising capital and choosing payment systems. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Big data sounds great, but how can marketers extract insights and put together reports without spending all of their time crunching numbers? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Anna Shutko of Supermetrics talks about how marketers today are dealing with data. From juggling data from 5+ sources, to wrangling spreadsheets and figuring out how to continuously monitor your data pipeline, Anna shares how Supermetrics clients are taking on these challenges while saving themselves considerable time - and how you can, too. Highlights from my conversation with Anna include: Supermetrics is a marketing automation tool that transfers data from a variety of sources to the marketer's destination of choice. In addition, Supermetrics offers data warehousing through Supermetrics for BigQuery. Supermetrics' goal is to make marketers' lives better and easier so they can focus on what actually matters. Anna says that marketers today need to be technologists who know their business, know their platforms, know at which stage of the funnel they want to use the platforms, and know how to use data from all those platforms together to create a comprehensive narrative from their data. According to Anna, the best KPI for any marketer is revenue. If revenue is growing, then marketing is doing its job. One of Supermetrics' customers was able to cut the time they spend on reporting down from three to four days a week to a few hours. With a platform like Supermetrics, which allows you to continuously keep your data updated in real time, you can simply check the data once a day, knowing that its up to date, and then go about your business. You can also simply provide your stakeholders (ex. board) with a link to view your data at their convenience. Anna says that the biggest mistake marketers make is to focus on vanity metrics like impressions. Resources from this episode: Marketing Technology Landscape Supergraphic  Supermetrics Reporting Template Gallery  Supermetrics Customer Success Stories Sleeping Giant Media Success Story Supermetrics HubSpot connector Supermetrics for BigQuery  Inbound Success Podcast episode 111 with Jake Neill  This Won't Scale playbook by Drift SaaStr Podcast for all things SaaS The Growth Hub Podcast for marketing topics Julian Shapiro's guides Listen to the podcast to learn more about how marketers are cutting their time spent on reporting using Supermetrics. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth. And Today my guest is Anna Shutko, who is a product marketing manager with Supermetrics. Welcome, Anna. Anna: Hey, Kathleen, and thank you so much for having me on the show. It's such a pleasure to be here. Kathleen: Yeah. And I think you might actually qualify as my guest, one of the guests who is coming from the furthest away because you are in Finland right now. Correct? Anna: Correct. Yes, we are based in Helsinki, Finland. And yeah, so originally from Russia, and I moved to Finland and I've been living here for about seven years now. Kathleen: All right, and how -- just because the weather is changing here, so I'm currently kind of obsessed with weather -- how cold is it where you are? Anna: Basically, it's plus seven degrees Celsius. I'm sorry, I don't know what it's like in Fahrenheit. Kathleen: Cold, cold. I know that's cold. Anna: Kind of cold yeah. It usually drops to minus 20. So it's- Kathleen: Oh my gosh. I don't know how you do it, I would not survive in that climate. Well, it is getting colder here and the seasons are changing. But I'm so excited to have you on and to pick your brain because we're going to talk a little bit about analytics, which is something that's very near and dear to my heart. But it's one of those topics I think people talk a lot about, but they don't get very specific on and so I am actually really excited to get specific with you. Anna: Yes please. About Anna and Supermetrics Kathleen: So before we dive into this, though, can you just talk a little bit about, first of all, yourself and what you do and also what Supermetrics does? Anna: Yeah, sure. So I'm Anna Shutko and I've been working in Supermetrics for three years now. So I am one of the first employees of the company, I joined as employee number seven in 2016. And since then we've had a really, really rapid growth. So it's indeed an exciting journey. And I'm still continuing as you can imagine, the company is not the same as it was, not the same at all. Now we're hitting 70 like headcount. So it's been quite a wild ride. And I started as a marketing generalist, because as you can imagine, we're a team of seven, and everybody was doing everything, I was the second employee on the marketing team. And as the company grew I realized that product that's Supermetrics does is my passion and I want to devote more and more time to it. Now as we are hiring more people, I'm actually able to concentrate in product more and more as we go so I'm very excited about it. And in the future, I will be leading integrations marketing, which means, and I will explain everything how Supermetrics works and what integrations are in a minute, like integrations as their own stream as their own branch of marketing, so to say, so yeah, pretty excited about it. And like I mentioned, I fell in love with the product from day one. I remember how I was applying to Supermetrics, and I opened the website, and I saw this amazing product in the website was look really, really bad, but the idea was there. And yeah, since then, we changed the website and we added many more new and far more amazing products but I'm continuously in love with the company and products that we do so this is where my passion as a product marketing comes from. Kathleen: I have to just say, as a marketer, I have to laugh when I hear you say that you came in and you had a bad website because this -- I have experienced that in my career. And I never know whether to be excited or sad, because sad that you're coming in and the website stinks but excited that you get to come in and like change it and immediately show such big results of your marketing efforts. Like a website redesign is an awesome opportunity to just make a huge impact on a company's marketing so there's great opportunity there as a marketer, but it's also like "aargh." Anna: Yeah, I totally feel you on that we had a huge redesign project, but actually now the website really matches the company's identity of the company's products and shows how amazing they are. So I would prefer to see it as an opportunity. Kathleen: Yeah, you guys have a great website. So if you're listening and you have not checked out the Supermetrics site, definitely take a look at it. It's really well done and very cohesive from a visual branding standpoint. I've always liked your site. Anna: Thank you so much. Yeah, so a couple of words on what is Supermetrics and what do we actually do in this little red box. So, Supermetrics is a marketing automation tool and we started by developing a tool, which transfers data from different data sources, or as we call them "Integrations", those things, which transfer data from different APIs to different data destinations. So we transfer data from platforms like Google Ads, Google Analytics, Facebook ads, Twitter Ads, and now new ones for example Quora Ads, name it to spreadsheet tools and we started from transferring all this data to Excel then we move into G Suite. So next product was Supermetrics for Google Sheets aka transferring data from now it's 50 plus sources to Google Sheets. Then as Data Studio got rolled out, we partnered up with Google and we're actually the first ones to develop Connectors, which work entirely in Google Data Studios UI. So transferring all these different data to Google Data Studio. And now we enter the data warehousing space with our newest product Supermetrics for BigQuery and this is a completely new product game changer. So marketers can take advantage of BigQuery and store a lot of historical data there without necessarily learning how to code, really like hardcore, so everything is pretty intuitive. You can set transfers, and then visualize the data in big powerhouses that we're calling Tableau, Power BI for example. So that's the evolution of Supermetrics. In short, I love to describe it as a data pipeline, just easy to imagine, right, pipeline, we transfer data as if it's like water, for example, to all those different data destinations, and keep the work flowing. So previously, without Supermetrics marketers had to copy, paste, or download CSVs. So imagine, if you need a report for your client tomorrow, you have to go to every single platform like Facebook ads, Google Ads like I mentioned, ecetera, copy, paste, or then download all those different CSVs and compile them into one file. Edit every single data type and make sense out of the data and it was nightmare. I cannot even imagine how people did it without Supermetrics before. So we basically automate the whole thing so there is a really smooth sidebar or engage Google Data Studio there is this selection tool where you can very easily connect to all the sources you need. And you can select, which data do I want. For example, I want clicks from yesterday's clicked by campaigning for example, I want Facebook ads campaigns. And boom, this data just appears in your spreadsheet. It's really easy. I think it's the easiest if you watch the video, and I will add all the links to the video. So then people can pause the podcast, follow along or check our site out if they want to. So yeah, you will just really see how easy it is to create a marketing report and our motto, so our idea is to make marketers' life better and easier so they can focus on what actually matters like talking to the client, analyzing this data, spotting trends, sharing this report with their colleagues. If it's a collaborative tool, like Data Studio, it's super easy to do. And because we're a data pipeline, it gives us this flexibility. So we don't really have a fixed data destination where we transfer everything. People already know how to use Excel, so they can just transfer their data there and just go ahead and continue their work. So that's who we are. How marketers are taking on big data Kathleen: I love that. This whole topic is so interesting to me, and I was just having this conversation with somebody the other day, because my company is also in the data space, but we just happened to be in cyber security but there's a similar problem with marketing and with cyber security, namely that, there's all this sort of excitement around the availability of big data. And data is wonderful but what winds up happening I think, a lot of the time is there's a lot of noise and not a lot of signal. And meaning there's a ton of data, but you don't necessarily need to look at all data, right? You need to get to the data that matters the most. And the most important thing isn't the data itself it's the insights you source from it. And so, I would love to just kind of get your thoughts on especially for marketers. Do you see marketers successfully dealing with that challenge right now and how do they do that? It is such a big, hairy kind of area of I could be measuring all the things and tracking all the things. I guess this is like 10 questions in one I want to ask you so many things, like what are the most important metrics? How are marketers winnowing it down to what matters the most? Like, you guys work with a lot of companies, how many exactly is it? Anna: So yeah, indeed we do and I think I already previously mentioned to you, so it's 400k, 400,000 people who've tried or are using Supermetrics across all the different products, so huge numbers. Kathleen: That's interesting, it must give you some pretty fascinating insight into what information marketers are tracking and what they're looking at and what sources they're drawing data from. So let's start out actually by a lot of the people who are listening to this podcast, a lot of them tend to be practicing marketers and they're senior enough that they deal with strategy, but they're also kind of deep in the weeds with some tactical execution. And if somebody is listening and thinking I need to set up a reporting framework and I need to decide what are the most important KPIs to track? Can you share a little bit of, through what you see in the platform, like, what are those top KPIs that you tend to see marketers looking at? Anna: Yeah, so of course every single marketing reporting framework is unique and it depends on the company, there is no right or wrong, there is no one framework or one approach I could share and then everybody would apply it and then I would be in a very happy place. I wish that would be possible. But it's an art, it's science and everybody has to use their own judgment. Of course, I can pinpoint some things for example, nowadays you're completely right -- marketing is becoming more and more and more data driven. And marketing is actually becoming more and more technical. So there was this one chart I love referring to which is called the MarTech 5000. Not sure if you've heard of it. And it just shows on a larger scale, how the MarTech space has transformed over the years. So in 2011, there were something about, if I remember correctly, 150 solutions. And right now there are over 7,000 solutions. So imagine all those platforms and every single marketer is using maybe in their own platform, or some unique custom setups in the same HubSpot or Salesforce in the same platform everybody's using. So like I mentioned, is becoming more data driven, it's becoming more unique and is becoming increasingly complex. And what I see is that the profession is changing so we're not just more curious anymore, we have to be marketing technologists to successfully implement all those strategies. So knowing the platform and knowing at which stages of your funnel, you should use a particular platform, maybe it's a new platform, like Quora Ads for example. And it's an entirely new set of metrics because the nature of platform is different. You also have to take that into consideration. So basically to sum it up, knowing your business, knowing the platform, knowing at which stage of the funnel you want to use this platform, and knowing -- and this is where Supermetrics comes into play very nicely -- how we can use data from all those platforms together to create a comprehensive narrative from your data. Say you want to use, for example, Search Ads as top of the funnel, this is what we see commonly happening, people using Search Ads, maybe display ads to attract attention so they will be metrics like impressions, to impact your further questions like impressions clicks, in a way micro conversions or conversions as in their positioning to the website or going into down the funnel. Then in the bottom of the funnel, people are already more familiar with the company. So there can be many different other platforms coming into play that continue handling data so they can go on the website track. So then there is Google Analytics. They continue with another platform. Quora Ads again is a very good example because there you can have different targeting levels and you can target different questions now that people have already got their food for thought about your company. And in the end, you can, again, hammer them with more maybe brand-related content now that they're already familiar with your brand and then lead them gradually to closure. And again, this is where understanding of the product comes in handy. I will give our own Supermetrics example. So we have Supermetrics templates, basically, those are free to use files, which people can use and they work with our Connectors. So it works like this, you get this file, you click three buttons, and it all happens in Data Studio UI or, for example, Google Sheets UI and this is gets populated with your data as you use Supermetrics Connectors. But the trick is that you have to use Supermetrics Connectors to automate this dashboard. Of course, you can put your own numbers and the formulas would work, there is no problem with that you can also use it manually. But the beauty of those templates is to use them in an automated manner. So by knowing that those templates, activate trials, again, if we talking about SaaS, you know that in the bottom of your funnel, you can put this specific lead magnet, like in our case, this is the Landscape, there can be some our tool and then usually tracking through Custom Code or through Google Analytics, how those things convert and then afterwards I think that at this point, people start using more and more complicated platforms to track this post-purchase journey to accurately predict what kind of people convert? How do those people behave? And are there any like rookie purchases? So this is, again, where HubSpot comes in very handy. The platform has expanded a lot. Or Salesforce, then you can connect this data from Salesforce to top of the funnel, or middle of the funnel content data and then see how people who click on your ads and search literally through the whole journey have converted and what kind of people are there and based on that data, then you craft an improved marketing journey. Now that was a really long explanation but yeah, just hope to get the general idea out there so that you should know the business you're in. You should know the tool, you should know how to use those tools together, how to use this data together. And yeah, just focus on metrics like ROI that's my personal belief because marketing cannot function separately or completely separately from overall business, it has to bring results, it has to bring insights. So I think revenue is a very solid indicator of whether something working or not working, and in our case, this will be ROIs. Marketing tool sprawl Kathleen: Yeah, that makes sense and you touched upon something I wanted to ask further about, which is you have to know your platforms and I think you said you need to be a technologist these days, which I think is really so accurate. There are so many different platforms and you can't just be a strategist anymore you have to know how to get in and make these software tools sing for you, because that's where a lot of the value gets unlocked. Do you have a sense? Well, let me back up how many different data sources or platforms does Supermetrics integrate with right now? Anna: It depends on the data destination. So for example, for BigQuery, it's far more complex to add a data source, so we have less of them there. But I would say that more than 50 if we don't count those in detail, or like early access, fully integrated, fully developed platforms, there are around 50 and I have to say that our engineers did a great job because not only do we provide the basic of I call them the basic metrics for some platforms like HubSpot, for example, or Adobe analytics, we also provide the Custom metrics. So if people have created their own metrics, they are also able to fish them out with our tool and like visualize them. Kathleen: So there's about 50 different fully integrated platforms and plenty more kind of in development. Do you have any sense from the way that you all have seen customers using Supermetrics of, on average, how many different sources the typical marketer is pulling in? I'm just curious. Anna: Yeah, of course, I will give you a very, very rough number because there is no generalization to be made. Some people prefer to use one platform very heavily others prefer to use a bundle. But I would say that around maybe like five would be something like an accurate number. Kathleen: Yeah, it's so interesting, because just from my own experience even in small organizations, like, my company is small and in early stage, hopefully will be very big in a year. But, we still, I feel like we have a lot of different platforms. We have marketing automation, we have our website, we have Google Analytics, we have our CRM, like our video marketing platform, our SEO add-ons, there's just so much and pulling it all together is a little bit of a nightmare. And I imagine without a tool like this is super time consuming, and I think that that's probably one of the biggest pain points marketers have, is the amount of time they spend on reporting. Like you said, you work with a lot of different companies I know you and I talked and you have some examples of companies that have used the platform and some stories about how it's helped them save time. Can you maybe share some of that with us? Supermetrics customer stories Anna: Yeah, definitely, and I love sharing those stories because the clients are amazing and some of them have been with us through like absolutely everything. So they started using Grabber, which is now our legacy product so the tool pulls data into Excel. And now they want to try or are already trying Supermetrics for BigQuery you can imagine some of them have used all five of our products, so definitely an evolution there. But coming back to your question one of my favorite client success stories is Sleeping Giant Media. These guys- Kathleen: It's a great name, side note, I just like the company name. Anna: Yeah, they're great and the people they're amazing. So the team is based in Britain, and they've been using Supermetrics like I mentioned for a while. They started with Supermetrics for Google Sheets and now they're looking into Supermetrics for BigQuery. So Sam, big shout out to Sam is our one big Supermetrics fan and he even talked about us at Brighton SEO, which was just amazing we never asked him to but he just went out there and spoke about us. It was really heartwarming. So he told a story that they used to spend around three to four days just on marketing reporting, aka copy, pasting numbers, collecting- Kathleen: Three to four days a month, right? Anna: Three to four days a week. Kathleen: Ah, oh my goodness. Anna: Imagine well, I guess they were not doing it exactly like every week, but maybe like every other week let's say. They are a fully functioning marketing agency providing a wide range of services. So he would get in Monday morning and start collecting data and then they're emailing all the cc's. By Wednesday evening, he would finish all reporting for one maybe two clients, depending on the scope of the project, of course. And then he had Thursday and Friday. So Thursday the client meeting to discuss how campaigns are going, whether there is some adjustments have to be made, et cetera, et cetera. And then it would just leave basically Friday and well, if he's not doing reporting next week, then the next week to implement all the changes. Which to me sounds crazy, because this is something you should not be spending that much time on. This is not a very highly intellectual job like copy, pasting numbers feels so basic -  people doing this and he's started using Supermetrics so he's time basically time he spent on reporting cut down to something like an hour or maybe like an hour and a half and if he needed to do a reporting for absolutely all the clients in the agency that would be in one day. Kathleen: So what does he do with all his newfound free time? Anna: Great question. So he's already talking, well, obviously you started sharing those results with the clients. So he started talking to the clients more and this I think even further reinforces the idea that we help inbound marketers because then we encourage with this free time you can have more human connection. You can ask more relevant questions, you have more time to even think or like process the client's needs. And, in addition to this, he was able to make more relevant analysis now that he had more time. So he could actually process the numbers in his head and think, "Aha, what would our next steps be?" And then react accordingly? So we usually have two types of reports people are doing with Supermetrics. So one type of reporting is this for example, monthly reports where people pull together numbers from all those different sources to assess their monthly progress to see what kind of plans do they have to make for the next month, and then so on and so forth. And the second type of reporting that we commonly see is the ad hoc reporting. So say, okay, this campaign, this bid is acting wild I did not know what happened. Some numbers are going down they're not normal compared to the benchmark or this is someone unusual behavior. Let me just quickly pull out a few numbers and compare them and figure out what's the root cause? Is it something seasonal or is some competitor in the picture, like to understand what's happening. And I really loved one comment, this is from a different client the agency is also based in the UK, they said that it's much, much faster and much easier to pull those numbers with Supermetrics rather than going through the whole Facebook ads UI trying to dig into campaigns and figure out what exactly went wrong. So there you go. So you can also do this ad hoc kind of very quick analysis to see whether some immediate action has to take it and I think this makes you very, very proactive versus being a reactive reporter. You look at the numbers, it's like, "Oh, my God." The moment is gone, things have already happened. But this way, you can very quickly act upon those changes and as a result make your clients happy and avoid some potential setbacks. If you for example, have Black Friday and say something's going wrong then you don't have much time to react. You're losing money basically. So yeah, it really is- Kathleen: Do you have any sense for how often, because Supermetrics really gives a continuous flow of data, correct? Anna: Yeah. How often are marketers reviewing data? Kathleen: And so you could theoretically be checking it all the time. But do you have a sense for how often at least in best practice cases, marketers are looking at that data? Anna: Yeah, so they can set triggers that would refresh data automatically. So I would say that people do so that they set up a reporting dashboard, then they set it up to refresh, so that the data is there for the next day, usually. Of course, they can do like hourly refresh again, if it's a fast pacing, budget campaign, but usually they you do this, I come in to the office, I see fresh data in my dashboard. So every morning, we can do a quick catch up with my colleagues, look at this internal report and see how all of our different clients are doing. If it's an agency, if it's an internal team, then just see how campaigns are performing and then see what we're doing during the day. So that's the usual, I would say, very typical scenario, or according to my experience. Kathleen: And then it seems like, for reporting, like if you're somebody like me, who has to put together a report once a month for your board of directors, you could just really kind of screenshot and paste the graphs into a PowerPoint or something along those lines if you wanted to, or you could distill the data in some other way for like a monthly report. Anna: Yeah, definitely, you can do this. What I would do personally, if I was the one doing this, I would use Google Data Studio because this way you don't have to copy paste anything and you can share this file with really nice dashboards they've updated their design and they're rolling out as far as I know, more comprehensive and even better looking design soon. So you can just connect all the sources put all the numbers and like I mentioned also provide those templates so you can get some inspiration from there. Our designers also do a very nice job creating those lovely designs. For example, we have some Supermetrics for HubSpot templates there in our gallery and I will also give the link to all the materials and the gallery so people can check them out or if they listen to the episodes and try everything themselves. Check out the Supermetrics reporting template gallery But yeah, I would do something like this. And then at the same time, you would not need to refresh the data because the data will be refreshed automatically there. And the board of directors can see new numbers and in addition, you can also connect your custom data source, aka if you have revenue numbers in a database, many companies do have those. So especially if it's a board of directors, they would be very interested in the impact marketing has made on their revenue and other business metrics. So you can pull this data from the database and you can show it side by side with the marketing spend, for example, to give them an even bigger picture. The biggest mistakes marketers are making with data Kathleen: That's great. So any thoughts on, you know, what you see the marketers doing as far as the biggest mistakes they're making with tracking data reporting on it, et cetera? Anna: That's an interesting one. I actually have never thought about this. Mistakes. Well, maybe one thing that comes to my mind is maybe like focusing too much on the vanity metrics as I call them, aka like a lot of clicks or like impressions or worse like it's a impressions. Metrics that give you ... I would say these are maybe like unrelated metrics in a way that they're not very directly related to the business metrics, because for example, in some cases, sales cycle can be quite long. So you cannot accurately assess how much the campaign will generate in the future just simply because people have to go through multiple steps and multiple touch points to even get to the discussion about purchasing your product or tool or license. And so yeah, focusing too much on impressions, focusing too much on metrics then, like I said, not maybe necessarily related. This comes back to the product. You should know your sales cycle and I would suggest breaking it down into different steps and basically monitoring and benchmarking each step and see the conversion rates. I don't exactly remember, a gentleman did an episode with you and he suggested a very good framework for this. There was even Excel spreadsheet. So this is maybe something we could also pulling back to this episode in the comments. Kathleen: I'll have to figure out which one that was. Anna: Yeah, unfortunately, I don't remember. Kathleen: We'll figure it out. Anna: We'll figure it out. Check out the episode Anna references here Kathleen: I know we can do it and we'll put the link in the show notes. Yeah, I know that I've had so many great guests it's interesting who've contributed so many great ideas that oftentimes I was thinking and in fact as I listened to you talk, that I need to go back and listen to some of my earlier episodes, because now I'm on I think I just published Episode Number 117 when we're talking about this, and there's so many earlier ones that are still great in terms of the information they deliver. Who is Supermetrics right for? Kathleen: I imagine that this type of reporting isn't right for everybody because some marketers might have much simpler platforms or maybe not. Maybe it is for everyone can you talk through who do you generally see using a solution like this? Anna: So our most common user personas, so to say, are marketing agencies, so somebody who is doing marketing reporting consecutively and then they have to do it almost every day or at least monthly to put together those good looking reports for their clients. But of course, those marketing agencies can be of different size. There can be a five person as we are now seeing with required there can be a five person very tech savvy small team, which focus on marketing technology and purely some maybe hardcore analytics with the elements of normal distribution and some predictive analytics even or they can be a very big marketing agency like TBWA who want to work client success stories. So yeah, agencies are very typical for us. Then we have internal teams so basically marketing departments, which want to monitor their own campaign, how they're progressing. Then even if they don't have a client, like you just mentioned, reporting to their board of directors and showing what impact marketing has made on their sales et cetera. And also, we've added HubSpot Connector, which is not only marketing, but it's also CRM. So then they connect their marketing data together with the CRM data to give more background information and make a 360 degree analysis. So these are very, very diverse I have to say. Kathleen: Great. So really it sounds like anybody, regardless of size, who has a strong focus on data, tracking data, analyzing data and reporting on data? Anna: Yeah, I would say so. Well maybe there is some categorization, I would say that smaller teams tend to use Google Sheets and Excel aka Spreadsheet tools. If the team is very tech savvy, or they have a lot of historical data, then I would straightaway advise them to use Google BigQuery because they would immediately otherwise hit that cell limit and the reports will be bulky, the reports will be slow. This is just not the right data destination, if you want to store terabytes and even more like 2, 3, 4 years of historical data to see different trends. So to summarize, bigger marketing agencies who have many clients, many big clients like big brands want to own their data because imagine those big brands spend a lot of dollars collecting this data, cleaning this data up. And they want a place where they can successfully store the older data so they can store data in BigQuery as their database and then they can instantly connect data from their Facebook ads, et cetera, to BigQuery through Supermetrics, and then visualize it, for example, in Tableau or Power BI to get the full picture of their marketing reporting. And yeah, smaller teams tend to use Data Studio, Google Sheets, which are completely free tools, so they are not paying per usage for them. So for them that would be cheaper and therefore more suitable option. How to learn more about marketing analytics Kathleen: Okay. Now I'm going to spring a question on you that I didn't tell you I was going to ask you and you may not have the answer because this is totally off the cuff. But as you spoke about this, you talked about, like, when you start to do more, you should move over to BigQuery. And I imagine for some marketers that could seem kind of intimidating, especially if they don't come from a highly analytical background. So are there certain places that you know of, or can recommend if somebody's listening, and they're thinking, "Oh, my God, that sounds really complicated." I need to get up to speed and learn more about analytics and how to use something like BigQuery. Is there somewhere online they can go to learn and become better at analytics? Anna: Yes, and I actually do have to say that we're working on this. We're very well aware of this worry that people have that, oh, I've been using maybe more simple UIs for my whole life. And now there was this whole like jobs and transfers and the whole different environment, which is coming with this BigQuery. So first of all, I do have to say that we're working on creating a bunch of materials for BigQuery specifically that will show how can use Supermetrics products if you're a marketer like videos, where do you click? How do you create different kind of transfers? How to use different kind of joins? So this is something that we're really hoping to provide and also we do have natively build Data Studio Connectors so after a marketer has gathered all the data in BigQuery, they can use our connector to visualize their data in just a few clicks. And, again, as we publish a video you'll see it's very, very simple and what I really love about BigQuery, although it does sound intimidating, but Google does provide learning resources for that as well. And if you look at the UI, you will notice that it's very, very intuitive. So to say, well at first it's maybe a little bit challenging, but once you get a hang of it, it's actually pretty nice, it's quite clear. From our side, we also provide this monitoring suite where you can see how your transfers are performing. Is your data flowing all in nicely? Is there something to worry about or not? Usually all our transfers are fine. So people have mentioned and you can also see from the client success stories that data flowing in nicely and we haven't experienced that much challenges with Supermetrics for BigQuery. But yeah, more resources coming up. Google does provide their own resources and I think it's important for marketers to at least look into this if it's relevant for them, because this is the general trend. This is where the world is going and you want to be ahead. You definitely want to at least understand what kind of technologies are there. I really liked the quote one of our clients have mentioned. So they said, "It feels like Google BigQuery compared with other providers is built with agencies and with marketers in mind." So that sounds reassuring to me at least that people do say that it's actually feels like it's built for marketers. So I would say, yeah, wait for ours resources and then go and explore on your own and try not to be intimidated by this very techie sounding word. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Yeah it can be a lot to think about. But that's great that you guys are working on creating some resources. All right, we can talk about data forever but I have two questions I always ask all of my guests at the end of my interviews, and I would love to get your answers. The first one is, we talked about how the focus on this podcast is about inbound marketing. Who can you think of that whether it's a company or an individual who's just doing inbound marketing really well right now? Anna: Yeah, I will say quite a common answer and I'm pretty sure other guests have already mentioned this company. I think Drift is doing a fantastic job when it comes to inbound marketing, so they have not only created their own category, but when they interact with the people, with their clients, it feels very, very human, which I think they got this trend. This is something many of us need as marketing is becoming more and more techie. We need this kind of catalyst, we need this human connection to feel welcomed. And like I mentioned, they're doing a fantastic job there and one very good example is this one scale playbook, those 41 or 42 plays. As you read through this playbook, you can literally see that the company's trying show their best and make people feel welcomed and warm if they're using their product. Kathleen: Now, that's great. A lot of people have mentioned them, but that's because they're doing great things. Anna: Exactly. Kathleen: Second question is where do you personally go to learn and keep up so that you are able to stay abreast of the cutting edge developments in marketing? Anna: Yeah, so I prefer not to have a one stop shop. So depending on the topic I want to learn more about I go to a variety of different resources. So if I want to learn something more general about what's going on in the world of SaaS marketing, I listen to the SaaStr Podcast. Another amazing podcast I can recommend is the Growth Hub Podcast, and my colleague Edward is a proud host of this podcast. I really love his interviewing style and the guests, which have been on this podcast are simply amazing. So go check it out the Growth Hub Podcast, by Advanced B2B. A couple of other things. So of course I go to MarTech Today and SEJ if I want to learn about news and recent updates, and for us it's especially relevant, because we need to keep up what's going on with all the data source companies. Julian Shapiro, I'm not exactly sure if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, has a couple of fantastic guides on how to write a great copy, how to build a really nice landing page, how to A/B test. So one really good resource there as well and yeah. How to connect with Anna Kathleen: There's a couple new ones there that I haven't heard about. So we'll definitely check those out and put the links in the show notes. If someone wants to reach out to you, if they have a question about what you've talked about, or they want to learn more about Supermetrics, what is the best way for them to connect with you? Anna: Yeah, so definitely the best way is to reach out to me directly, maybe not through the company Twitter, but I'm @superpoweranna on Twitter. Kathleen: That's such a great handle. Anna: I love it as well. It's like Supermetrics plus me. So yeah, @superpoweranna on Twitter, and yeah, just hit me up with anything. And I also am very actively checking LinkedIn messages so Anna Shutko on LinkedIn, please don't hesitate to connect and I'm very happy to have discussions, answer the questions about anything there. So yeah, LinkedIn and Twitter, I would say, are the two go places. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Great. Well, I will put links to all of your various social accounts in the show notes so people can reach out to you and thank you so much for joining me. This was really fun just to talk about analytics and to geek out for a little bit. If you are listening and you liked what you heard or you learned something new as always, I would love it if you would leave the podcast a five star review on Apple Podcasts. That is how people find us and hear about us. And of course if you know someone else who's doing kick ass in non-marketing work, tweet me @WorkMommyWork and I would love to make them my next interview. Thanks, Anna. Anna: Thank you so much Kathleen. Kathleen: So fun.

Anna Willet writes nightmare thrillers it's best not to read before bed – and that's the way her readers love them. Hi there, I'm your host Jenny Wheeler, and in todays Binge Reading episode Anna talks about facing her worst fears in her nail biting books and the traumatic experience as a teen that has colored her work. Six things you'll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode: The draw of psychological thrillersOn being an Australian thriller writerThe challenge of giving her characters a hard timeWestern Australia - one of the world's best kept secretsThe writers she admires mostWhat she'd do differently second time around Where to find Anna Willet:  Website: https://www.annawillett.info/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Anna-Willett-1732961043643247/ Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com.au/AnnaWauthor/ What follows is a "near as" transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions. Jenny: Hello, Anna and welcome to the show. It's great to have you with us. Anna: Thank you Jenny. It's a pleasure to be here. Anna Willett - Australian thriller author Jenny: I always start with a predictable question, but I do know it's one that readers like to have the answer to. Was there a 'Once Upon a Time' moment that catapulted you into writing fiction.  And if so, what was the catalyst? A life long dream realised Anna: I don't think there was any one catalyst, but I'm always wanted to write. Even as a child, I would write short stories. But then marriage and studying and having children and working eclipsed all of those ideas for many years. And so it wasn't until my daughters were older and I had time to actually consider what is it that I want to do, that I decided to take writing seriously and I started writing short stories. Cold Valley Nightmare - the second in the Lucy Hush thriller series by Anna Willett  And then about six years ago I started writing my first novel. Jenny: Fantastic, so now you've got to nine suspense thrillers that have described as real nail biters - the sort of thing that they advise "be sure to leave the lights on" and I can vouch for that . What attracted you to that particular niche of genre  - the psychological thriller? Anna: That genre has always appealed to me.  I don't really know what that says about my personality, but I do enjoy being able to examine the character's emotional state. I feel it's a meaty genre for me because I've always been interested in what motivates people in terms of their behavior. The 'fun' in being crazy scared So it's fascinating for me to write psychological thrillers. They allow you to dig into unstable emotions in a character and I feel like when I'm doing a good job with that I can create a sense of fear and paranoia and claustrophobia in my reader and it sounds crazy, but for me, that's kind of the fun of the psychological thriller. Jenny: Yes, and I'm sure it is for the readers, the ones who like those sorts of stories. They really enjoy having themselves scared out of their socks don't they? Anna: Yes, yes, and as a reader, that's what I enjoy when I'm reading these types of books. And so I want to write the sort of things that I know I would like to read. Jenny: Yes. And maybe there's a little bit of a psychological aspect of you also facing your own fears. I saw it suggested about one of the books -  The Woman Behind Her  - that the theme of it was facing your own fears. And I guess this question comes up quite often from readers, but where do you come up with those ideas? Is it like thinking of the most horrifying thing you could think of that would happen to you and writing about it. The worst that can happen is here Anna: Thinking about the most terrifying thing really allows you to get a reaction from the character. It peels back the layers.  It has worked for me, in that I'm able to understand why people feel t...

James: Hey, audience. This is James Kandasamy. Welcome to Achieve Wealth through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, I have Anna Kelley from Central Pennsylvania, who owns around 175 units, around $16 million in worth until now. And you know, I should have invested passively in 900 units. And she's also under contract on around 200 units right now. Hey, Anna, welcome to the show. Anna: Thank you so much for having me. Good to see you, James. James: Good to see you too. And, I mean, for those who do not know, we also have a YouTube channel that shows all our interviews. And you can catch up with us on iTunes or Stitcher or YouTube or Spotify so go and do that. I'm actually in one of my property here in San Antonio so trying to do it from my office. And Anna, are you in your office or where are you right now? Anna: I'm in my home. I'm not actually in my office. James: Yes. Good. Good, we work from home, I guess, right. Anna: Yes. James: So Anna, why don't you tell our audience about yourself? Anna: Sure. So I started out in real estate about 20 years ago, just kind of dabbling in real estate. And I started out doing some property flips and some single-family rentals. And then I slowly started moving up to small multi-unit properties, like four-unit apartment buildings, 10 unit apartment buildings. And I recently last May retired from my full-time career, I worked for AIG for 20 years. And I really built my real estate portfolio up on the side, part-time for all of those years. So busy mom, have four children. And I just went full time. And now I'm focused on and have been focusing on for a while much larger apartment building assets. James: Got it. So let's go back to the beginning. I mean, you work at AIG, which is a big insurance firm. And can you just quickly tell us what was your role? Anna: Sure. So at AIG, I had various different roles. I did internal management, consulting, product development, and then I moved into a role that was very compliance heavy. We worked with private placement hedge funds wrapped in an insurance product. So we worked on SEC audits and filings, reviews of PBMs and hedge funds and things of that nature. James: Got it, so it looks like you have some PPM level syndication experience, even at your workplace, I guess, is that right? Anna: Definitely, we worked with alternative investments for about 17 of the 20 years that I worked there. James: So you work there for 20 years and when did you start to real estate venture? Anna: Why I'd say, you know, I dabbled, I bought some, you know, singles and I bought a flip. And then 12 years ago, when I moved from Texas to Central Pennsylvania to start my husband's chiropractic business, we were looking for properties to lease for his office space. And we found that it was very difficult to do that. But they had a lot of buildings that came with tenants, you know. Older buildings on Main Street that had been converted to businesses on the first floor, most of them had residential rental space on the top floors. And so we bought a building and inherited tenants. We had three tenants with his commercial space. James: Okay. Anna: And then that kind of threw me into the idea of having tenants and having a little extra cash to cover the mortgage. And then at that same time, James, we sold a house in Houston that we lived in, liquidated everything, we had to come here and start a business. And so I knew it wasn't very wise for me to buy another home right away. And AIG let me work from home on a very temporary trial basis to see how it worked out. So I bought a four-unit apartment building for us to live in. So we downsize significantly and house hacked, basically, to make sure that our business expenses, you know, for the space and our housing expenses were covered if I happen to lose my job, you know, 12 years ago when we started out. So that got me into starting to think about and invest in residential real estate. James: Got it. So you basically, you did not like had an ah-ah moment, I need to go tomorrow and buy real estate. You were actually thrown into it? Anna: Well, I'll say this before I went to work for AIG. I was in private banking, I was a Financial Relationship Manager for Bank of America. And so I handled the top 10% of the wealth in our bank, both small businesses and individuals. And what I found is that many of them owned real estate and had accumulated their wealth in real estate or were already investing in real estate. So in my young 20s, I was very interested in real estate thought that it was something lucrative that one day I'd like to own, but I really didn't start thinking too much about it until I had my first child in 2003. And all the flip houses shows, you know, we're coming on and I thought, oh, I can flip a couple of houses and be home with my child. And so I dabbled in flipping before the rental real estate. But my move here is what kind of gave me the impetus to think about rentals more quickly. James: Got it. So, I mean, I never had a woman guest until now. So you are the first one. And I'm very -- Anna: Oh, thank you. James: We have a lot of listeners that are listening everywhere and I'm sure a lot of them are women. So I'm trying to get from a woman’s perspective, on how could they start like what GF started, right? I mean, your husband is working and you are working too. Like, I would say what do you think could be the secret formula, or they're just the formula on how can any woman start while they are in your own position? Anna: Sure, you know, there are different ways to starting, a lot of it James truly does depend on the personality of the person, your family dynamic. You know, how much support you have for watching your children? What other income sources you have, you know, when you're starting out? And how much basically time and money that you have available to get started? So, you know, people that have very, very limited time might have the significant cash flow or they might, their spouse might make enough money that they could really get started more passively. And that's where maybe they want to start investing in other apartments syndications or getting invested as a passive partner maybe joint venturing with someone that has experienced you know, buying and managing either a single or a small multi or a larger and then just investing with money. And learning how to review the financials and review the operations each month and each quarter. Just to kind of get yourself familiar with what it's like to own and manage an asset might be a good way to get started. For someone like me, that doesn't have any cash and really wants to get invested by investing time, you have a lot more opportunity to really educate yourself through reading books and through podcasts. And going to meetup groups to learn what it takes to ask actively, evaluate deals, find them and hire people to update them and improve the values and put a renter in or you can start learning the skills yourself. You know, my husband and I when we started out, he did a lot of the maintenance and I painted every unit. And I called flooring contractors and you know, designed kitchens and help paint cabinets. I mean, we did everything actively because we started out, we had liquidated all of our, you know assets and started out with quite a bit of debt to start a business and we're running that. So we really didn't have a lot of money. So we invest at the time. So there are many ways to get started. But I'd say definitely align yourself with other people that already know what they're doing, attend some meetup groups, listen to podcasts. And then just decide whether you want to be active or passive for your first one or two until you kind of learn what you like, what your personality works well with and kind of what works within your family dynamic. James: Got it. So who convinced who between you and your husband? Did he convince you to, hey let's go and do, spend time and rehab this real estate or did you convince him or how did you? I'm trying to understand how did the discussion happen? Because a lot of people are struggling, I mean could be struggling, right? How do I convince my spouse especially from a woman to the husband side? Usually, the husband can convince the wife, right? But you are the one who's active right now real estate, how did that work out? Anna: Yes. So it's one of those things when we talk about the personality of the individual. When you're married, there are two people involved in your decisions. And my husband and I, from the beginning, have always looked at our finances and our lives as a partnership. But we kind of has our roles in reverse. I mean, he's a doctor, he's a chiropractor, he went to school for a long time. He's very smart. But he's very hands-on and a people person, he doesn't like the finances, he's not financially minded. He's not the kind that wants to be an entrepreneur and grow a big business, like he's content, just having a small practice, and letting me handle all of the finances. So because I had a background in finance and understanding investments, I pretty much have always handled our investments. And when we decided for him to start the business, I kind of took over the operations and learned how to, you know, run a chiropractic business and set up insurance and all that kind of stuff while he was the doctor and saw the patients. And so when it came to real estate, I said, listen, we're starting out with a lot of debt after paying off all of the school that it's just not financially wise for us to do anything other than buying something so we have tenants helping to pay the rent. So it was easy initially to get Vincent to buy his practice and our building, just to be financially wise and not going into more debt. But growing that beyond that was definitely me as the driver, he was busy with this practice. He did not like to do maintenance, but he learned to do it and liked the fact that once we did rehab units, they were worth a lot more and we had a lot more cash and could keep buying them. But I've been told multiple times, slow down, pull off the brakes, we have enough units, why do you want to keep growing? And I am like because I'm passionate about it. And I'm passionate about the wealth that it can create. So I've been kind of the driver. And he's been very supportive and very hands-on for the 70 units that we self manage in our area. But definitely likes that I'm now buying much larger assets where I'm asset managing and he's not involved day to day in the management and maintenance of the properties. James: He must be very happy now. Anna: Very happy, yes. James: Yes, we started with 45 units. And my wife used to be sitting there whenever we were missing our property manager in the beginning, I mean, she was sitting there doing things and I didn't do maintenance. But, I used to be with her and trying to buy this and buy that and make sure you know the contractors are lined up. And it's a lot of work, but it involves teamwork. And yes, we are two different people, we have to learn how to work with each other. Anna: For sure. James: That's good. And so you started with 70 units, with the chiropractic real estate, right? I mean, is it like a commercial center? Anna: It is. It's a commercial mixed-use building. So there's a commercial space that his business lease's from my business. And it had three tenants, three, you know, residential renters and four garages to that property. James: Got it. So you got some kind of tax benefit, I guess because the [inaudible11:44] is leasing from the owner itself, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. James: So get some write off there, good. And how did you, I mean, so after that and then what was the next acquisition that you did? Anna: So James, as many people were affected by the 2008-2009 economic crash. Imagine working for AIG at the time and AIG, you know, coming in and having one of the largest insurance liabilities of any other provider in the country between mortgage insurance and credit default swaps. And I worked for them. So I had already, I had been working for them for a year on a work from home basis. And we thought we were going to be laid off, my stock went from 1-o-1 a share to 43 cents a share. My retirement funds were almost just destroyed. They were destroyed. I lost about two thirds within a week. And I decided, oh man, I'm going to lose my job. My husband has a brand new business with hundreds of thousands of dollars in startup debt and I'm the sole income. So what are we going to do? And the only thing I could think to do right away was to borrow from my 401k, about $50,000 that I had left that I could borrow and buy another four-unit because I thought at least if I buy another 4 unit, I'll have another, you know, $1200 to $1500 dollars a month of cash coming in. And that's in the asset, that is solid and stable that I won't lose any more in the stock market, no matter what happens. So that was my next acquisition. Again, it wasn't really thinking about oh, this isn't a phenomenal investment. It was, what can we do to survive? And I know that cash flow is a good thing. And that residential real estate will not go down in value significantly compared to the stock market. James: Got it. So after that four-unit, what did you buy the next one? Anna: Another four units. James: Okay, and when did you start with the 70 units where you self manage? Anna: Okay, so what we did, we self-managed, again, initially just out of necessity, not having a lot of extra cash, thinking our finances were not super stable because I was the sole breadwinner at that point. My husband's income was nice, you know in six figures gross, but it was covering expenses. And so we just we're continuing to find ways that we could cash flow and make the most cash and be willing to put in the time to do it ourselves and learn at the time. And so we kept buying a couple of single-family homes that we bought as foreclosures, renovated them and instead of selling them as a flip, we did a cash-out refi, we kept them as rentals, we took the proceeds to buy another and another. And then we did the same thing with small four-unit apartment buildings. So four-unit apartment buildings were kind of my niche and the sweet spot for several years chains. Because there were in a smaller area, I'd say maybe a tertiary market right outside of Hershey. And there's not a lot of apartment complex supply, no big complexes, but there's a lot of demand for housing. And so most of the rental real estate here were four-unit apartment buildings that had been built that way or converted, you know, couple decades ago. And there weren't a lot of big buyers buying those four-unit building. So they'd sit for a while. So I kind of I saw a niche where I could buy properties without having a lot of competition. And I could basically treat them like a larger commercial asset, but on a, you know, on a four-unit scale instead of a five or six-unit scale. And so I kind of honed my skill in updating those units, managing those units, raising the values, cashing out repeating. And then decided, okay, now it's time, once I built up, you know, a strong six-figure passive, you know, net rental real estate portfolio, then I decided, now I can retire and I can scale and start going after much larger assets. And so that's what I did. James: Okay, got it. So when was the first time that you acquired a much larger than four-unit property? Which year was that? Anna: Okay, so in 2018, I had basically created a five-year plan James in 2013, that by 2018, I wanted a $5 million portfolio, you know, about $150,000, at least in passive income, and then I would retire and start going for a bigger one. So I'm my goal in four years in 2017. And then just started kind of working my way into, you know, saving six months of salary and expenses for all my buildings and starting to look for larger deals. So I found the first larger deal for me, it was a 73 unit apartment building, right outside of Hershey, Pennsylvania, that I found off the market and I [inaudible16:20] on that with two other owners. That was a six and a half million dollar purchase 73 unit. And we closed on that in 2018. James: Got it. So how did you manage your time? I mean, your husband is working, and you are doing this fourplex, fourplex, fourplex and your four kids. And you give some tips for people who are in a similar situation and how can they manage and be as successful as you are? Anna: You know, I think really the key to my success has just been resilience and grit and determination. I worked truly, most people say oh, rental real estates passive. But I like to say and I totally believe James, that passive income is built on the blood, sweat and tears of active income. And it takes years of active, sometimes to build up the financial wherewithal that you can truly become totally passive. So between my husband's business and my work, and my rental real estate, I truly worked 70 to 80 hours a week over the last 10 years, in order to be able to get to where I am. My four children are all involved in sports, pretty competitive sports. So we have sports every morning, we have sports after school every day. And most days, it's seven days a week, you know, multiple tournaments on a Saturday and on a Sunday. So every waking moment when the kids went to school before I started work, I did real estate. My lunch breaks, I did real estate. My vacation days, five out of six weeks a year, I did real estate, you know, evenings between when the kids got home and I worked, it was real estate. And after nine when the kids were in bed, I often stayed up till midnight to get things done. So it was very time-consuming. But I'm very, very grateful that I stuck with it and did it. And it was just a matter of utilizing every day, I didn't watch TV, we didn't have cable, I didn't go do a lot of recreational things, I really, you know, not nose to the grindstone just focused on building the portfolio so that I could retire and spend more time with my kids. James: Yes, it's really hard work, I can really appreciate what you've gone through. Because I was working and my wife was like running around in the beginning. I mean, I only stopped working after we had like, 340 units. Now we have like, 1300, it's a lot of work, right. So based on what you're saying, it can be done. It's just like not, please don't give excuses, right? Anna: Exactly. I'm here to tell you, you know, if I can do it, working full time, running my husband's business, four kids and doing it, you know, anybody can do it if you just have grit and determination. So you make the time for what's important to you. And I knew that it was important to me to be able to work myself out of my job. And especially with AIG, you know, a couple of years ago, they said, we really are going to sell our unit, and we need to all be prepared to figure something else out in terms of career. So that kind of drove me to have executed my plan in a certain period of time. And now you know, that I'm retired, I'm still very, very busy. But I have the freedom to control my time, you know, to do what I enjoy and go after larger deals where I'm not having to be quite so involved in the day to day. James: Yes Can you define what is grit and determination in your mind? Anna: Sure, so grit is the ability to stick with something, no matter what comes, no matter what obstacles without basically, you know, melting into a wallflower. And just keep ongoing. And, you know, there's been a lot of studies done on what makes people successful. And you know, some kids were tracked from high school, through college, through their professional lives and they were really surprised that the top students like the valedictorian, the [inaudible20:04] rarely ended up actually being the most successful people in their professional lives. It was usually the people that went through a lot of hardships, and just kept going and push through and got creative and figured a way through and around every obstacle and became stronger and more confident, and determined. And those are the people that ended up the most successful. So I just I think it's an extra drive and extra determination and a willingness to keep pushing through no matter what and to not give up on your goals. James: Yes, so look, I mean, I always tell my listeners and whoever talked to me that it's always, you know, whether you want to be successful, or whether you like to be successful, whether you required to be successful so, I mean, if you have been this successful, you must have that, I really need, I really required to be successful. I mean, is that true statement that you came to that way? Anna: I think so. I grew up with very, in very humble means. And I always knew that I wanted to create a different type of lifestyle and a different financial future for my kids and I was just determined to do it. So I've always been driven, I've always taken on challenges. You know, my first job at Bank of America, I won the number one ranked Financial Relationship Manager in Texas and Employee of the Year awards at multiple jobs, my first couple of years. Because I've always had, that I'm going to be the best, I'm going to succeed, I'm going to achieve and do whatever it takes attitude. So I think part of that was ingrained in me from a young age. James: Yes, I think it's important, I mean, just the personality itself and the drive to be successful and the requirement; I mean, because your husband and your AIG was going downhill and you must be successful otherwise, your family, it may not be in a good place, in terms of financial. So that's really good. So describe to me, what was your toughest day in a one day when you have like four kids and all going to all these classes and schools and all that? Have any time where you think that, oh, my God, this is just too much for me as a mom and as a real estate sponsor? And can you describe that feeling and experience? Anna: Yes, I just actually, you know, Facebook is kind of a mixed bag of whether you like it, or whether you don't. But I like the Facebook memories that kind of pop up and remind you of something. And I had something pop up this last week, about a three day in the life of a real estate investor that works full time and has four kids. And I looked back and thought, well, I don't know how I survived it. But back in February of 2018, I believe it was, I had a call that there was mould in the basement and that they were smelling mould. So they opened it up and there was a lot, well, you know, I'm thinking it's probably like a dripping water heater or something we walked in and there was literally like six inches of goopy mould hanging from every rafter of every space in the basement of a three-unit apartment building with the ground floor, a dirt floor. And when we opened it up, I mean, it was just really bad. And what had happened was a hot water heater, pressure relief valve had failed in the basement, nobody seemed to notice nobody called us. The person in hindsight said, you know, I thought my hot water pressure was kind of low and not as hot. And I should have called you well, within about a six week period, six to eight weeks, somewhere in there, our entire three in an apartment building was just covered in mould. And inside all the units, I had to meet the tenants, it was snowing and really bad weather. And I had to call, you know, restoration companies and re-home all my tenants and get all of this stuff out of the property. Right after that, we had another property where a roof blew off in another big storm. And we're handling the kids and multiple other small things were going wrong, we had a couple of frozen pipes because it was a winter that the ground was just frozen for so many days. So we're dealing with frozen pipes, re-homing tenants, working full time, insurance, the tenants all wanted to sue me because there was mould and their kids were sick and going to the hospital. And my kids were just young and very needy. And it was like a two or three week period where I thought I'm done, I can't do this anymore. It's not worth it. It's too hard. And I kind of had a little pity party for a few weeks and said, okay, I need to take a break. I'm not buying anything else. And I took about a three-month break where I didn't buy anything else. And I just kind of took care of those issues. And then, you know, said I need some breather time, we went to the beach. And after I got back from the beach, I'm like, okay, I'm refreshed. It's behind us now that I've handled that period can do anything and just kept going. James: It's crazy the amount of pressure and tense moment that you have during that kind of things with family and issues with the deal. So I want to ask one last question before we go into the details of some of the deals that you have done here. So why do you do what you do? I mean, you don't have to do this right now. Right? Anna: So a couple of things, James, I'm really passionate about real estate, I'm really passionate about wealth building. And there is nothing like real estate to build wealth. You know, I started out teaching clients about mutual funds and stocks and bonds and how they can make you know, eight to 10% returns on their money if you time everything right. And realize that it takes money to be invested in the stock market. It's volatile and it's risky. And really, people can go from nothing to multi-millionaire in a couple of years of investing in real estate if they do it the right way. And so I've just seen the real power in that. You know we went from literally negative $750,000 net worth when we started my husband's business to a several million dollar net worth and just a few years of really aggressively buying rental real estate. And so it changes lives. And I want people to know, especially women, that that you can change your financial family trajectory, not just for today, but for future generations. And also we're providing really good housing to people. So you know, I grew up in government housing, my mom was a single mom, she was a property manager for a government housing apartment complex. And I know what it's like to grow up in an apartment and we didn't have the best amenities. You know, all my friends were wealthy, and I lived in a little apartment complex. And I've worked with inner-city kids who live literally in shacks with dirt floors in the middle of Houston, Texas. And to be able to empower people and say, your life can be different. And I can show you the financial tools to take better steps and to know better so that you can create generational wealth for yourself. And it just empowers me, it drives me to keep doing it, not just for my own wealth accumulation, but to help other people to learn that they can do the same. James: Yes, that's very interesting. I mean, what you say this, anybody can do this, right? And I know a lot of people are listening to you, there will be some people who think, yes, I can do it too. Then there's another group of people, they're going to give reasons, oh, Anna has this, Anna has that, that's why she's successful. So if you are the one who's giving reasons, I know you want to stop that, because indefinitely, you can make money in real estate, especially millions of dollars, if you really work hard. And if you really, really want it, a lot of them just do not want to do the work. They really don't want the success, they just want to continue with their life and just go ahead and do whatever they've been doing and let the life takes wherever it takes them. Anna: Yes and I think part of that James, for so many years, you see these teams, these shows reality TV, and people convince you that it's easy money that you can do it, that you can be successful. There's coaching programs and gurus that you know, charging five, ten, twenty thousand dollars to sign up and learn how to do real estate. And they promise you that if you follow these three steps, you're going to be independently wealthy in a year or two. And I think when reality hits people, and they start investing, and they start to see how hard it actually can be on a day to day basis until you build up that experience and that wealth, they just give up and they feel like failures because they've been sold an unrealistic expectation of getting rich quick in real estate, when it's really the long game. You know, you're playing a long game, it takes sometimes longer than it should you know, some people get lucky or find the right network and connections and very quickly can build wealth. But for most people, it's slow and methodical growth. And it's just people need to realize that it's not easy, but it's not that complicated if they just stick with it. James: Yes. And they are people who did one real estate and failed badly. And they gave up on real estate. So there other people that you know, yes, one time fail doesn't mean anything we could, we would have failed many times, I guess. Right, so. Anna: Sure. I lost money on my first flip. And I was convinced I'd never do another one. And yes, I changed my mind quickly. And I've done a few but rental real estate is really where the wealth build up comes. James: Yes, yes, in my single-family days, I do like 11 rentals, but I was also doing two flips. And I regret doing flips, because I made like, 40,000 on one flip and I buy a loss and $1,000 on another flip. And that thousand dollars feel very painful. Anna: Yes James: Because you shouldn't be losing money in real estate, but it really taught me a lot of things on how I didn't do it right in terms of the flip. But just because somebody did one and they fail, doesn't mean the whole real estate is a scam. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: Definitely make millions of dollars in real estate, especially if you're living in the US. Anna: Yes, yes. James: It's a country where it allows anybody to grow, there is no limit is just you. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: So no reasons, right? So if you give reasons, that's you so that's the only thing. So let's go to some of the deals that you have been done. And you so you are buying fourplex, fourplex, fourplex. And you started [inaudible30:21] on the 70 units and you self manage and you go into the syndication, why are you going into syndication now? Anna: So, I think some of it comes back to the time and the money, that spectrum of do I have more time or do I have more money? When I got started, I didn't have money and I could have said I didn't have time, but I made time. So it was a heavy, heavy time investment. As I built wealth and as I built more cash flow, it just made more sense for me to be able to scale larger with other partners and to be able to be an asset manager, operator, rather than the property manager or the maintenance person. So I've gotten to a point in my life where even though I've retired from my job, I really want my evenings to be free with my children and just to be wife and mom in the evenings and just spend a certain number of hours a day doing real estate. And so I got to a place where I had to say, you know, how can I really scale if I'm still self-managing many, many more units, it's going to take me a lot longer of full time effort, even though I don't have a job. And I wasn't really willing to sacrifice any more years with my children working more than 40 hours a week. And so I wanted to control my time and continue to scale. So I figured I needed to start working with other people, utilizing other people's time and other people's money. And the larger multifamily allows you to do that because you can afford full-time property management, full-time maintenance staff and really become more of an asset manager and business plan executer than you are an individual who self-managing your own properties. James: Yes, business plan executer, that's the operator definition, I would say. Anna: Yes. James: How do you define operator slash active asset manager in your mind? Anna: Sure. So an operator is basically the person responsible for operating that asset soup to nuts and executing your business plan. So it's generally, you're just general partners. And there will be either all the general partners will be involved in the asset management or overseeing the business plan and making sure that your plan for that particular property is being executed the right way. So for example, if we're buying a value add property, like the 73 unit that we did and the others that I go after, it's a property that is usually poorly managed, its expenses are not being managed well, the rents are below market, and perhaps the units need to be updated in order to maximize the rents so that you can then increase the value of that property. So as an asset manager and operator, I'm working with our property management company or a property manager and with our contractors to make sure that you know, when units come available, we turn those units quickly, we update them on time and on budget, we raise the rents, we get the new tenants in there. So that we can execute our plan to raise the values before we sell or refi. And we work with the property managers to make sure that they're cutting the expenses in the way that we planned, that they're monitoring the expenses, monitoring the rents, making sure rents are being collected, and you're just basically overseeing soup to nuts, all of the things that are supposed to happen to make your asset more valuable. James: Got it, do you think there's a certain advantage of being a local asset manager? Anna: I would say yes, in that really bad, unforeseen, unexpected things happen, like mould damage, or like when blowing roofs off or a hurricane, you can be at that asset very, very quickly. And you can also stop in and visit with your property manager, your property management company on a monthly basis, bimonthly basis and just say, hey, let's walk the ground, show me what you're doing. And there's just never anything as valuable as actually being on the ground and seeing it. However, in today's world, where we have the technology, we have zoom, we have our phones, where we can take pictures, and we can walk around, it's pretty easy to do things virtually as well. So while the operator in me that's always had, you know, my boots on the ground, and always been able to see kind of likes the control of being able to be at a property within an hour. It's not necessary, if you trust your team and have a good team that's boots on the ground, and can just go to your asset maybe once or twice a year. So I haven't really done it from afar. I'm asset managing my first property that we have under contract right now, two properties in Atlanta. And so I'll be sharing asset management responsibilities there. And that'll give me a little better feel for how much easier or harder it is to do from afar. James Got it. Got it. So let's come back to value add. So all the deals that you're buying a presume are value add, right? Anna: Yes. James: I mean, you're adding some things to the operation, either the income or the expense, right? So what do you think is the most valuable value add in your mind? Anna: So I really like Class A to B areas and an older building because your area you can't change, a lot of syndicators go after class C area, workforce housing and older buildings. And so you're struggling not only to bring the asset up to today's standards but also with a tenant pool who may suffer more heavily if we head into a recession or they may be more susceptible to losing jobs and not being able to pay rent. Where when you're in a nicer area where there's really good school districts and people want to live, there's a lot of good employers and a lot of good shopping and things around, you're always going to have people that want to move into that area because it offers the best lifestyle for those people. And so if you can find an older asset, you know, you're not struggling with the area to keep your units filled. It's just a matter of now offering an asset that people want to live in while they are in that area. So I'm really a value add investor, not doing like full major repositions, taking units in a C class area, that's 40% bacon and trying to fill them up. I like stable assets in a stable area that just needs some updating and operational efficiency in order to bring them up to today's standards. James: Good, that's very interesting. I never heard that from anyone else. Because the strategy is for you to look for the good area, but look for older buildings and try to improve from those older buildings, I guess. Anna: Yes. James: Okay. Interesting. But what about the like interior rehabs and do you do any like rehabs on the inside? And do you think is there any specific rehab that you think is more valuable than others? Anna: Sure, you know, it's really market-driven James's I know that you know, but for your listeners, every market demand something different. So where some parts of the country in order to get you to $1100 a month rent might demand granite countertops, and they might want really nice luxury vinyl plank flooring, other areas like tile, and they don't like granite, they like maybe stone countertops, and other areas to get that much, you might be competing with a $3,000 a month luxury apartment that would have granite and vinyl plank and maybe 1000 would get you carpet and a nice floor-laminate. So you've really got to look at what does your particular market demand and not just assume that every rehab has to be a cookie-cutter that looks the same. So what I do is I look at what is the competing market? What is the complex is offering to get that top rent that they're getting today? And I kind of secret shop those complexes or go on their website and see what those units look like. So for the 73 unit, for example, our property was a 1985 vintage when we bought it in 2018. So it was a little bit older, had a lot of original oak cabinets, plain commercial grade carpet, old looking vinyl. And basically we went in and we just changed up the flooring to vinyl plank flooring in the main living areas with carpet in the bedrooms. And the reason we did carpet in the bedrooms is because it's really cold in the northeast. And so a lot of people don't like solid flooring in their bedrooms. So we kind of save a little bit of money on doing carpet in the bedrooms and vinyl plank elsewhere. And we replace some countertops and updated old cream-coloured appliances to stainless steel, or very nice white depending on the unit. And then we painted the apartments, a soft, grayish color kind of more on the gray side. But the flooring has kind of had some greys and browns that go well with everything. And really for just a couple thousand dollars in new flooring and paint and some countertops and appliances, we were able to raise the rents $200 a unit. So it was a significant increase in rents because when we bought the property, not only were the units kind of dated, but the owners had not raised rents on several other tenants for several years. And so the property right next door to ours was asking 175 to 225 more a unit with the exact same floor plans as we had. So it was a great property because we didn't have to do a whole lot in order to bump those rents and achieve that big increase in value. James: Got it. So I want to go a bit more detail on how did you choose your rehab plan because you said you did countertops, you did stainless steel and a few other things there. But it's for example, how did you choose? Why did you want to install stainless steel appliances? Can you give some education on how did you go to that process, say I want to do stainless than black appliances? Anna: Well, and again, this is we've kind of left appliances, we've kind of played with it a little bit because we had so much room to bump the rents. And we looked at what is next door offering? They're the biggest competitor. So next door had certain units where they offered a premium package with stainless steel appliances. But the standard package didn't, it had white appliances. So we said for the first couple that comes available, let's do the vinyl plank, let's paint them. And if there's a cream color, for example, one unit had a cream color stove and a white refrigerator and cream color, you know stove and we said let's keep the brand new white refrigerator. And let's just put in a white dishwasher, a white stove and see if we can get the rent that we want without going stainless. So we did that on a few. And we had a huge waiting list of people that wanted those apartments, they couldn't care less about the stainless steel and so we didn't do it. So you know initially we thought we were going to go all stainless but people, we've been achieving the rent bumps we want without having to do stainless. And so we haven't done it at this point. James: Got it. Yeah, that's how you and I think that's a good strategy to look at the base on where you didn't want to overspend versus how much rent bump you need, right, because -- Anna: Yes. Sorry, go ahead. James: No, I mean, somebody can use that extra money for something else. Anna: Exactly. And the other thing, you know, because I focused primarily in my general area, I know the market like the back of my hand. So the buildings that we bought the 73 unit and the subsequent 31 unit that we just brought too, they're basically my direct competition. So I know what tenants are looking for, I'm already offering it in my town. And basically within a 30-mile radius, we know this is what the market demands, this is how much room we can get for it. And so while people think, oh, I need to do all these fancy bells and whistles, you really just need to look at what your competition is doing it over, improve it to the level that you're going to get the top rent, but don't over-improve it to the point here that you're spending needless cap backs, that aren't going to get you that much of an incremental rent bump. James: Got it, sounds really awesome man. Let's go back to the slightly more personal side. Is there a proud moment in your real estate career that you are really, really proud of, one moment? Anna: One moment, I think, on my 73 unit, sitting down with my JV partner and his partner that he had partnered with stuff, and really being able to convince him that this was an amazing asset to invest in. And he agreed to fund my first large syndication deal. So I was just really proud that I was able to build up the financial knowledge and build up the confidence and the track record from what I had done on a smaller scale that investors would trust me to take their investment and really manage an asset well for them. James: That's where you broke out from the four units to more than 70 units, which is a big achievement, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. And I think that and the day that I retired, when I was able to retire from a job where I worked with accredited investors to be able to say, you know what, I'm retiring, I've replaced my income, I've more than doubled it, I'm now an accredited investor. And I don't ever have to work for someone else, again, I think is probably one of the best moments of my life. James: Yes, that's really important. Can you name like three or five advice that you want to give for newbies who want to walk along your path? Anna: Sure, I'd say educate yourself as much as you can, you know, listen to these great podcasts and just learn from people that have already done it because you learn the things not to do and you learn that the good habits to do to kind of make yourself an excellent investor. So really commit to your education, podcast, read some books and attend some local investor meetup groups so that you can align yourself with other investors. So one is education. One is networking and alignment. And you'll get some continual growth and continue education just from learning from people that are in your network that are already doing what you want to do. I would say also start really looking at yourself and what your goals really are. So like you said early in the podcast, many people think they want to be a real estate investor. But when they discover how hard it is to do so, they kind of back off and maybe flounder for a while. And all of us can do that if we really don't know why we're doing something. So look at yourself, ask yourself what you really want in life. And why do you think real estate can get you there and then back into how much time and money am I willing to commit to my real estate investing venture. And if you don't have a lot of time, you've got to commit yourself to find money or finding other people's money or working with other people. And if you have a lot of time and not money or I think vice versa, then you need to really be willing to put in that time. And so look at your why; look at your time and your money and start figuring out how best to utilize every moment of time that you have, every moment of cash you have and other people's time and money so that you can start to scale as quickly as possible. James: Awesome, awesome. So Anna, why don't you tell our listeners how to get hold of you? Anna: Sure. So I'm on Facebook as Anna ReiMom Kelley. And I have a Facebook group called Creating Real Estate Wealth that lasts with Anna ReiMom, where we talk about real estate and really creating wealth and kind of the good, bad and the ugly of all the different asset classes. And you can email me at info@reimom.com. James: Well, Anna, thanks for coming into the show and providing tons of value. Anna, you gave a lot of very good perspective from how you juggle your role between being a mom and being a wife and trying to grow the business and I think our listeners would absolutely get tons of value out of this. And as I say there's no reason not to be successful in anything that you do and real estate is just a tool. You can be successful in anything but you can be successful if you really put your heart into it. If you really, really want it you will be successful. I mean, if you give reasons, there are tons of reasons you can give not to do something. Anna: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, James. It's been my pleasure. James: Thank you, Anna, bye. Anna: Bye.

You can find Anna's work on instagram @annabondocartist  and her website http://www.annabondocartist.com/ Anna Bondoc is a Los Angeles based artist, writer, and educator who was originally born in the Philippines, raised in Ohio, and now resides here in LA with her husband, her daughter, and their dog penny. In 2005, Anna started her business on the Bondoc designs, creating just very intricate layered paper cuts for fine art creations, stationery, and creating patterns. Her work has been featured in Apartment Therapy, Traditional Home, as well as Cloth Paper & Scissors, and in 2012 she created a how to book called Simply Paper Cutting. However, since then she has changed gears and she is now working with Pen and Ink, as well as with Alcohol Inks, and I'm curious to talk to her today to find out what else is on the horizon. Ever since I've known her she has been curious, been innovative, and always trying her hand at different things. So I'm really excited to welcome her to the podcast today and learn what else is on the horizon. Katty: As long as I've known you, you have been dabbling in some sort of a creative endeavor, which is so interesting for me and looking in it's always been so exciting to see all the various mediums that you're touching. I'd love to tell our audience really talk about how you got your start and, you know, where you are today. Anna: Sure. Well, I love that you use the word dabbling because it sort of characterizes how I approach creativity. And if you ask me how I got my start it, I often have no answer because I have never until recently, and I'm now 50, I hadn't considered myself an artist in professional terms, until I don't know the last five or so years. I know it sounds late but I think because I have always been motivated by almost being a beginner, and being a little bit out of my element and trying a new medium. It's taken me a long time to realize that is my primary motivation and it is not a singular, you know, painting, drawing, graphic design. I've just followed my curiosity, to a large extent, and that's led me to, every medium from Paper Cutting to Pen and Ink drawing to photography graphic design and it's taken me a while to reconcile myself with that because dabbling is not something that I was brought up to do. I was brought up to focus and to choose and so I never really committed to one type of art or creativity, and that's just the way I am, even though I have tried to commit to one thing or another. So there's been actually no particular start, but where I find myself now is an interesting time that you come to me because I finally had my first solo show of art, and had a business which didn't do so well under my belt, but I feel like an artist and they have not gone back to teaching which is what I did in between doing creative projects. But I had a bit of sort of fallow period at the start of January where I had this great show and everybody said to me, “oh you're going to keep drawing, or your going to keep doing your paintings, you have momentum now you've had sales.” And to be honest, when I sat down with myself I just was not feeling it for those things anymore, and they felt like finite experiences as though I'd written a book and I wasn't going to rewrite that book. So where you find me now is, after a period of frantic creative block, I finally have found some momentum in a project that combines my writing, drawing, and design skills, and it has no particular form, so I'm a little bit insecure about it. But it's it's one of those times where, you know, creative people tell you all the time. “I don't know where this one came from, but it's here and now I'm either going to work with it, or I'm not” and I decided that I want to work with this one. Even though I'm not exactly sure where it's headed. Katty: Okay. You letting the creative process guide you... Anna: Yes, and you know, usually I don't let that happen until I found a medium and sort of played with like “oh my Pen and Ink drawings, here I'm going to learn how to use this medium, and then I'm going to practice with it I'm going to study and I'm going to research.” This one is much more unruly than that, and it's different for me, but I think, I think it's my age where I just kind of say “you know what, creativity, isn't like a horse that you harness.” I don't want to romanticize it because I don't necessarily believe in the muse or whatever, but I do think that there's a reason that creative people talk about muses as being something outside of themselves that decides to visit. This one feels like a combination of a lot of things that I'm interested in, and it's nudging me to put it all together. Katty: Fabulous. Well, you mentioned something early on in the conversation about being a beginner, it kind of made me think of that beginner's mindset, which is filled with curiosity. And, this sounds like that to me. You know, the curiosity of where it's going to go and you're just allowing that flow. Anna: Allowing is a big thing for an artist, right, like for anybody. And I happen to also be a control freak. So it's a...this particular one began with a sudden urge, and curiosity to investigate typography and fonts. It kind of appeared one day, to me, I felt like drawing but I didn't feel like drawing the way I had done abstractly for many years actually in my that resulted in my last show that you saw. But this one I had the urge to make forms, but not people. I don't like to necessarily render objects or trees or things like that. I'm sort of more of an abstract thinker, but I kind of resisted this because I thought, “Well, I'm not a typography designer. I don't know why I want to do this it's unclear, this is weird.” But sometimes it just keeps asserting itself and I think that the only issue I have with beginners energy, it is a wonderful playful, curiosity driven as you said energy. But the problem with people like me is that when you get to the point where it feels a little boring, or you can easily abandon projects. When it's no longer that first blush, of ooh this is exciting, I don't know how to do this, sometimes I've dropped projects that I should have probably just stuck through in some particular way like made it fresh or beginning or added something to it so I'm learning how to play with that. Katty: Okay. Because I remember you saying that when you feel that you're not learning or growing anymore you, maybe you just switch mediums. So how to -- what I'm hearing is trying to figure out a way to harness that and see it through versus switching partially, right? Anna: Yes. I think that what I'm doing right now and we're talking about like two days. Of this realization is that the current project that I'm working on, let's describe it as a combination of trying to use charts and graphs and visualizing the data of my life, and trying to apply almost mathematical chart making skills to things that are very esoteric and abstract and like midlife crisis oriented. So it's very chaotic but I think that what I have decided to do with this project is to conceptualize it as a bunch of different tasks which include, drafting, writing, sketching, doing typography, maybe a little photography and so what I've structured is almost like I'm a person who went to Montessori and in Montessori, they say, rather than following first math then science, kids have a period in which they can choose okay I'm really drawn to this. Right now I'm feeling it, I'm really drawn to this task right now, and so what that allows me to do is from day to day instead of grinding it out and say, I'm going to finish the spread today or this sketch. I really look at it and I say okay where's the energy good today? And maybe sometimes I literally only work on it for 20 minutes, and then I feel a little bit of stuckness or meh, it's not happening, and then I can jump and look at some books that I've bought to help me, inspire me to design a certain way. So that I feel that beginner energy from day to day, and I'm really following my pleasure and my joy and my playfulness rather than employing this part of me that's more grim determination, which is sometimes necessary. You know, we have to use discipline at one time or another but I think for me, that's a buzzkill. I've just considered myself one of those people like “well we have to get through the buzzkill part.” It's kind of like, people who want to go exercise or do something that's not natural to them, and if they don't find a source of pleasure in it, you're not going to continue with that habit. So I'm become a believer in listening to the voice inside that says, “This is what wants to happen this morning or this afternoon”, and I just chunk it out. I just chunk out my tasks rather than thinking about it as some long march to work. Katty: Got it. Because I know you've spoken in the past about really cultivating that creative practice. How does this fit in with that? Is it just as cultivating the creative practice but in shorter bursts, or whenever it happens to strike? Anna: That is a really good question, I think it's the shorter bursts concept and being okay with it. I think that there are many books out there about creativity, or business or whatever and those are all incredibly helpful. But there comes a point at which you need to really personalize and tailor the information that you're taking in about how to work, how to best be creative and, it's very easy to slip into the mode, for me anyway of, “oh, look how so and so is doing it. Look how they got it done. Why am I not doing it that way?” And it's easy to reframe short bursts which I have done as dilettantism, a jack of all trades, master of none, can't finish a project, you know, undisciplined...and at a certain point, you just have to look at the nature of the work and say, “Is this work good? Is it worth continuing? Is the way I'm working in concert with the work as it wants to be made too?” Because not every project is the same either, like writing for me I have to say, does not come as naturally as drawing or sketching and it's not as pleasurable. Katty: You started out your path as a writer. Anna: Yeah, that is true, I would say that my entry point to creativity, in terms of academic studies and my degree was an English major. I learned how to be creative through the written word, but in fact I think that this latest project that I'm working on started out as me wanting to tell some wisdom and stories and anecdotes from my life, but I became impatient with linear thinking and words require linear, you know, first the subject and the verb then the next thing and the descriptor. But what I started doing was, as I was journaling to try to write about these things, it's just sort of naturally happened I'm like I'm just going to try to stretch what I mean. And let me see if I can create an image that conveys the same thing that I'm trying to say, in a way that pleases me is more naturally pleasing to me, which is to say graphically and drawn, and as we all know, that's why road signs are not all written in paragraphs, the image is much more sort of holistically digested. So, what is pleasing to me now is, I'll write almost a caption to the image and then the two are conjoined, and work in concert, almost like you know, the children's book writer will do is, the image has its weigh, the writing has its weight, and they work to inform each other and that has been much more pleasurable to me to write than just straight paragraphs and essays. Katty: Now, is the typography that you're doing is this pen to paper? Is this digital was the medium that you're using there? Anna: I'm a strange person in that I can't seem to make designs on the computer at all. I think that one of my goals in life had been in my 20s to be a graphic designer because it does merge word, and the written word and images. I love that interaction, but I could never make myself enjoy-- It felt almost like I was wearing gloves or there was a glass wall between me and my art, and I really have been drawing all my fonts even if they are, you know, German Gothic black letter thick fonts I really enjoy the process of hand lettering with a pencil, for now. And the pencil keeps me really loose and less worried about outcome. I noticed that when I try to shift right now to pen, or do a finished drawing, it's another buzzkill where it keeps me tight, so I have to work pretty hard to just retain that an original freshness to my to my ideas at this point. Katty: I'd like to see it when you're at that stage to show it. Anna: I think more and more because of Instagram and because of social media, there is, a movement for artists to show their process. I love looking at people's Instagram stories where you track backwards, where the iterative processes of creativity. I love that. I think people are really like using it, I think, artists, when I was in an artist mastermind group we talked about being able to convey the value of our art through price, you know so hard to price your art, but when people understand your story and then it's not just this you know pricing by size and inches but they really see that you've made small sketches or you've done this or thrown this out. People, I think they will buy your story, ultimately. Katty: Yeah, absolutely and it's you know it's an iterative process. If you know i don't think art necessarily is easy to look at a piece of paper or a piece of art and say, “Oh, great.” But, you know, the months or the years that it may have taken to take into that place, and that's just the value of thinking. Anna: Well, yes and I was thinking the other day that the disadvantage that artists have, in some ways is that, I think your average person who doesn't necessarily create a lot, they have this notion that the time it takes for them to consume the art is comparable to the amount of time that it took to produce that art. I watch people stand in front of paintings, and they breeze past and it kind of pains me, you know, not mine even other people's. Like I was at LACMA just watching people breeze past, snap a photograph of themselves in front of a drawing. I don't have a problem with that per se, but I read somewhere I wish I could remember where it was a challenge to stand in front of an artwork for, I don't know 15 minutes, and that's not very long but the, what you encounter, and what you're forced to encounter in 15 minutes in front of one work of art, you realize how much you breeze past, and you don't take it. Katty: That happens for some of the artists that we work with on more commercial work, design work, where, you know, when a client is looking for an estimate,it's really necessary to think about the hours to actually produce the work and forgetting about the hours that it's going to take just to conceptualize it. Anna: Yes, and also on, I mean because I do more fine art, I have done more fine art work. Recently, it is the -- I mean it sounds so esoteric but it's really the courage to kind of put your life story, your life values, something you have to say into that. That is, that's just living. You can't, you can't put a quantity or, qualitative judgment on wisdom that one is gleaned about nature or about, aging, or parenting or whatever that's the poetry and that's what makes it hard to be an artist, because you shouldn't expect that everybody would understand that, and yet if you're trying to make a living doing it and applying your visual talents to a commercial realm, you kind of have to be understanding that people aren't going to be interpreting your work the way that you what you brought to it emotionally. Katty: Yeah, everybody looks at it through their own lens. Anna: That's right. You have to let it go. But the paycheck may not reflect what you put in. Katty: It's true. I knew in your previous  work that I'm familiar with your patterns and your dots and you murmurations nature has been a huge source of inspiration for you. Where is the inspiration coming for the new work that you're doing? Anna: Oh, I'm going to laugh at myself now because I don't even want to tell you, and I'll tell you why because I am sort of -- I'm outing myself now. I'm a secret hoarder of self-help books. And, and I'll tell you, I'll just out myself again like I have them, and they're all facing the spines are all facing the other way underneath my desk, and I don't know why I should be so embarrassed about this but they are so, I mean, some of them have changed my life, right? Like some of the especially the Buddhist, the Buddhist so let's not even call them self help books, but they're very much about inquiry. Yeah, why are we here? What makes a meaningful life? And I have just made that shift in my life, in the last probably the last decade, especially. I have been trying to find a way to, I don't know, express my interest in them and generate something from within me and then interpret that visually for a lot of years. Or not visually at first, but actually through written stuff and it all sounded so, overly earnest, almost cultish, very esoteric, and believe me like I read a lot of this stuff and I love it. But I've been trying to find a way to express it in a way that I feel has some levity and humor and beauty and anecdotal, maybe a little self-deprecation. I am just one of those people who is an over-thinker, I'm philosophical by nature, and I've been trying to find a way to bring it down to earth because I do have a very skeptical cynical side of me too. And so I think that I'm trying to make that kind of important meaningful wisdom, accessible in a visual form. That's my current project. Katty: It's interesting you use the word wisdom because that's the word that was playing around in my head, as you were talking. Whether it's just coming to this, you know, time in your life. But that's the word that's coming to me. Anna: Well, I appreciate that. And I and I will say too, I think some of that wisdom has been a hard one, because of my particular experience growing up as an artistically minded a philosophically minded creative person in a family of Asian immigrant parents.  I'm not trying to stereotype but there is a particular expectation that you be pragmatic about your life and how you make money and what you study. My creativity was amusing to my parents, but it was not, it was not something that they were going to support as a way of living, and so I think, ironically, like, I think my commitment to this project this latest project and to finding wisdom is kind of asserting that you know artists and creative people have a particular path. And particular obstacles that they have to overcome and those coupled with that of immigrant parents who say to you, you know, just go, it's not boring but like just go be a doctor, an engineer and then you can do the stuff on the side. This has been my way of saying, you know what, I've tried that way, it didn't work, and now I really value, I value my creative talents, I value the way that I express them, and I do believe that there's wisdom for me to share, not so much like, “Oh, I know better and I'm going to tell you how to do it”, but I find the most satisfying encounters with my artwork is when people say to me, “I so connect with you about this. I felt alone in this and now I don't.” And I think that to me is why I've turned to the books why turned to certain artworks and I guess my hope has always been that I could provide a piece of art or writing that can make somebody else feel a sense of relief in that regard too. Katty: What would you say to someone who is maybe in this searching mode, early in their career? If some of the books that maybe have really helped you and you mentioned there was a couple that really changed your life. Are there any recommendations that you could share with the audience? Anna: Sure. Well, for me personally and this is a little esoteric but Pema Chodron, any of her books. The ones that I'm thinking right off the top is The Places That Scare You and When Things Fall Apart. It sounds very dire but it's not. She just reset my thinking as many Buddhists will, that we spend so much time segregating what we perceive to be good and bad things that happened to us in life and the times to -- we spent a lot of energy segregating. “I don't want this, I want this. This will be good for my career, this is not. This is great art, this is crappy art that I've made or whatever.” And I think when you get to a certain level of maturity, you start to accept that it's all mixed in, that it's all a portal to wisdom in some way or another if you have the right frame of mind towards it and just certain patience and acceptance. And that doesn't mean rolling over and play dead but it just means don't spend your energy, pushing back, all the things that you think are going to be bad for you because some of the most frustrating things that have happened to me as an artist and creative person have led me to some real breakthroughs and that's just the truth of it. And then there's another book, which is radically different in tone, but kind of soothes the cynic and the hard ass in me, is Steven Pressfield's book, The War of Art. And it is brief, and it's cogent, and he basically in his own way says, “Stop whining don't spend your energy on that all artists are going to encounter obstacles. Get up do the work.” And the way I interpreted his work because it's a little bit harsh is if I had to summarize it for myself and how I metabolized his writing was, every piece of art that you do for me, every drawing is a study for the next drawing, everything. And so, yes there is a time at which you have to say, “Okay, I'm going to make this finished piece of art that I want to sell or that my client wants, or whatever.” But in order to relieve yourself of that stiffness and anxiety and putting too much weight on yourself or the project, you really have to face the truth that every piece you make is your education for the next attempt. It's all an attempt, it's all an experiment and stop thinking about it too hard and just make the thing, and be you know truthful about whether it's worthy of presenting to the world and I would, I don't know, in the last series I did my ink paintings, I would say, was the ratio of the ones I kept to not were one out of twelve. And that's okay, you know like, you can whine about the other eleven, and berate yourself or you can be grateful that you have the time and energy and talent to try to make these twelve, and you got one out of them. Great. That's kind of what I take from his book. Katty: They're building blocks. Right? Yeah, one foot in front of the other.  Well thank you for sharing those and surely thank you for sharing your wisdom. I think that, especially for someone who's starting out, and hasn't necessarily come into their own as they're listening to this podcast I think you're sharing a lot of nuggets of what you've gone through and have come out on the other side and recognizing why you're doing what you're doing, as well, just accepting the process. Anna: Well, I would say too, and this is just something I've been thinking about this week to add to what you're summing up there is. It's all for me about reframing, not as a Pollyanna way but reframing as a creative act in and of itself. So, use your creativity on yourself and that is an act in an of itself, is to reconsider how you work, the methodologies, try things that are new if they don't work.I mean these are all similar to the actual creative acts themselves, but you can apply that same creativity to your own emotional states, your own psychological states. It's all of a piece, nothing is separate. I mean I kind of think of it as like a creative ecosystem where it has to be healthy and sort of balanced for all the elements to work in a healthy way. Katty: It'd be cause and effect in there so, absolutely.Because I know, you know, just in having known you over the years that innovating is very important to you and so it is just beautiful to see how all of that is coming together at this point. Anna: Thank you, I appreciate that because it doesn't always feel like there's a through line. But I guess for creative people the through line is one's actual self. You have to honor that. Katty: Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Artisan podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Artisan Creative, a staffing a recruitment firm specializing in creative, marketing, and digital talents. You can find us online at artisancreative.com or via social channels @artisancreative We look forward to connecting.    

Durée : 3:10 - Cette semaine, les élèves de la section internationale de CM2 de l'école Anatole de Monzie à Nantes nous présentent leurs chroniques spéciales Halloween ! Et en anglais s'il-vous-plaît ! Ils interviendront régulièrement à l'antenne pour nous apprendre un peu d'anglais sur des thématiques spécifiques. Vous avez aimé la chronique ? Retrouvez leur texte ci-dessous : Anna : Hello ! We are Camille, Elina & Anna ! Elina : Aujourd’hui, nous recevons un invité très spécial, un fantôme nommé Clown Bob. Ecoutez bien ! Anna : Now, we have a special guest. He is a little bit scary but he is ok ! Avant cela, un peu de vocabulaire pour bien comprendre : - favourite : préféré - the ceiling : le plafond - to leave : partir, quitter - so far : jusqu’ici   Elina : What is your name ? Camille : My name is Clown Bob. Elina : How old are you ? Camille : I am 3 818 years old. Elina : What is your favourite colour ? Camille : My favourite colours are black and red. Elina : Where do you live ? Camille : I live in Ghostland. Elina : What is your favourite sport ? Camille : My favourite sport is running on the ceiling. Elina : What is your favourite holiday ? Camille : My favourite holiday is Halloween of course. Because I can leave Ghostland and visit a lot of people... Elina : What is your favourite number ? Camille : My favourite number is 718. It is the number of children I have scared so far !! Anna : Thank you for coming, Clown Bob. Have a nice day. Well, there you had an interview with a ghost ! Elina : C’était l’interview exclusive de Clown Bob, merci d’être venu répondre à nos questions !  

Durée : 3:10 - Cette semaine, les élèves de la section internationale de CM2 de l'école Anatole de Monzie à Nantes nous présentent leurs chroniques spéciales Halloween ! Et en anglais s'il-vous-plaît ! Ils interviendront régulièrement à l'antenne pour nous apprendre un peu d'anglais sur des thématiques spécifiques. Vous avez aimé la chronique ? Retrouvez leur texte ci-dessous : Anna : Hello ! We are Camille, Elina & Anna ! Elina : Aujourd’hui, nous recevons un invité très spécial, un fantôme nommé Clown Bob. Ecoutez bien ! Anna : Now, we have a special guest. He is a little bit scary but he is ok ! Avant cela, un peu de vocabulaire pour bien comprendre : - favourite : préféré - the ceiling : le plafond - to leave : partir, quitter - so far : jusqu’ici   Elina : What is your name ? Camille : My name is Clown Bob. Elina : How old are you ? Camille : I am 3 818 years old. Elina : What is your favourite colour ? Camille : My favourite colours are black and red. Elina : Where do you live ? Camille : I live in Ghostland. Elina : What is your favourite sport ? Camille : My favourite sport is running on the ceiling. Elina : What is your favourite holiday ? Camille : My favourite holiday is Halloween of course. Because I can leave Ghostland and visit a lot of people... Elina : What is your favourite number ? Camille : My favourite number is 718. It is the number of children I have scared so far !! Anna : Thank you for coming, Clown Bob. Have a nice day. Well, there you had an interview with a ghost ! Elina : C’était l’interview exclusive de Clown Bob, merci d’être venu répondre à nos questions !