Podcasts about anna oh

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 21, 2023 25:48

We're back with a new episode in our Parenting series and we're talking about punishments, rewards, and autonomy. For most kids, life is a series of expectations: when and what to eat, when to sleep, what to learn, how to learn it. This loss of autonomy can cause disconnection with a child's inner knowing. Punishments and rewards, too, are designed to influence children's choices. How could things feel different if we didn't try to control our children? What we've found is that stepping away from that control leads to better understanding about the individuals in our families, and so much amazing learning.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. Explore our courses and coaching at https://livingjoyfullyshop.com/.EPISODE QUESTIONS1. Think back to when you were a child. Did you get to make many choices about your days? If so, how did it feel? Did you feel empowered? Trusted? If not, how did it feel? Frustrating? Like you weren't trusted to make good choices? And who got to define “good”?2. Were you punished as a child? If so, how did it feel? How did it play out for you? Did you spend your punishment time contemplating your “crime”? Or being angry with the person who set the punishment, feeling it was unfair? Over time, did you absorb the message that you were a bad person in general for getting in trouble? Were you more likely to continue the “crime” but hide it from your parents?3. Did your parents reward you pretty regularly growing up? If so, looking back, does it feel like they were trying to use rewards to control or behavior and/or choices? Did you find that the rewards influenced your behavior or choices at the time? What, if any, impact did that have as an adult?4. I find it so interesting to consider the relationship between a child's autonomy and their learning about themselves as a human being. I encourage you to take a couple minutes to start brainstorming a list of the things you can imagine a child learning through making choices and seeing how things unfold. I think once you get the ball rolling it may well be hard to stop!TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello! And welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! Navigating relationships can sometimes be challenging, because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our introductory Foundations series. If you want to dive deeper, we also have courses and coaching, which you can explore in our Living Joyfully Shop! Follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com.And if you've been listening to and enjoying the podcast for a while, we'd love it if you could take a moment to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. They can really help encourage people to take a chance and listen to the show.So, this episode is part of our Parenting series and we're going to be diving into the ideas of punishments, rewards, and autonomy and how they weave together. And while we're talking about this in the context of parenting, it's equally valuable when it comes to any relationships.So, let's start with the bigger picture of autonomy.And so that we're starting on the same page, I see personal or individual autonomy just as the freedom to make choices and pursue a chosen course of action. Fundamentally, it's how human beings learn: by making choices and seeing how they unfold. Sometimes things go smoothly, unfolding how we anticipated. And sometimes they go completely sideways. And most times, it's somewhere in between the two.But each time, we learn something. Maybe it's about the choice itself, maybe it's about the execution, maybe it's about the environment, maybe it's about ourselves—the list is vast. Yet when we've made the choice, we're learning something meaningful, or at least useful, to us. And that's at all ages, kids included.So, when someone else makes the choices for us, which often happens for kids—choices like what they can do and what they eat and who they play with and what they wear and when they sleep—they learn different things. They learn less about themselves—their likes and dislikes, how their body likes to be fueled, how they like to express themselves, how they like to explore the world, how they prefer to engage with others—and more about their parents' expectations.Maybe they feel the rub and bristle at the line or limit their parents hold for them, but, certainly when they're younger, they aren't able to explore where they might draw that line for themselves. What is their personal comfort zone around the thing?When we don't get to make lots of choices as we go about our days, we don't learn a lot about ourselves, adults or children alike.ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. And I'm really excited that we are talking about this! Because I think it's something that doesn't get a lot of play in parenting circles. Autonomy is such a critical piece of our human experience. And, like you said, it really is where the learning happens. Understanding ourselves and our bodies is so important to overall life satisfaction, yet we systematically disconnect kids from this inner knowing from a very young age. For most kids, life is a series of expectations: when to eat, when to sleep, what to learn, how to learn it. And so, I agree, the learning that is happening is, ‘How do I please the people around me and do what is expected?' And we learn this because it's how I survive and how I get love. You will have the personalities that will buck against it, but those personalities are often maligned and made to feel there is something wrong with them, when it's much more about the environment not being a fit, than it is that there is something wrong with that particular child. And I want to say that I understand that often the guidance given by adults comes from a place of love and protection. We want the best for our kids. We want to protect them. We want them to learn things that we think will help them in life. But it doesn't take much examination to recognize that this is just not how humans learn. How many of us have had a well-meaning parent or spouse tell us that we should be doing something this way, or, this is how it's done, or this is what's best for you? And how often did that leave us feeling disconnected from that person, misunderstood, and sometimes even just irritated at the suggestion? But we can offer our best information as part of what they take in to make their choice, understanding how different everyone is and that they may need to move through situations in ways that sometimes don't even make sense to us. That's the path to honoring each person in our lives as individuals. We can share and we can leave space for it to unfold in a different way for the person in our lives.When we have an agenda, and especially when we punish someone (as is often the case for children) for not meeting our expectations or following with our agenda, it is a huge blow to learning and autonomy and often the relationship as a whole. PAM: Oh yeah. It really is. And I want to talk more about punishments, because, while obviously affecting autonomy, they also don't often teach the “lesson” that parents really are, out of love, trying to impart.The obvious impact on autonomy is that a punishment is designed to control the other person's—most often a child's—choices. Things like, "If you do this thing I don't want you to do, I'll punish you by making you do a thing you don't want to do, like go to your room." Or, "If you don't do this thing I want you to do, I'll take away a thing that you want to do, like taking away access to your tech device of choice."In that way, it can seem a little bit like tit for tat. The thinking seems to be that trying to relate the punishment with the crime somehow makes the punishment more effective while also giving the child “time to think about what they've done.”Yet, in my experience, bringing punishment into the mix quickly focuses the conversation on the punishment: the details of the punishment (what, how long), whether it feels “fair,” and the execution (“go to your room,” “give me your tablet” and so on). And then there's the whole stage of policing the punishment: making sure they stay in their room, hiding the tablet so they don't find it, and responding to the child's pleas to end the punishment early. That focus shift to the punishment actually means that most of the child's learning is about how to navigate punishments. Not just the pleading, but how not to get caught next time, or, having learned what the parent didn't like, concocting a story that they hope will help them avoid punishment next time.Just go back and see how very little of the child's thoughts and learning are focused on the choice and action that sparked all this in the first place? What if, instead of jumping to punishment, the parent engaged in a conversation with the child? Getting curious about what they were trying to accomplish and why, talking about the context of their choice, sharing the pieces it seems they hadn't considered when they made their choice, and about how things unfolded—is this actually what they were expecting to happen? That is where so much rich and valuable learning lies.ANNA: Oh my goodness. Yes. 100%. There is so much learning lost with punishment. It shifts the focus from what was done, to the parent or person who is punishing. When they're in their room, they aren't thinking about the actions that got them there. They're thinking about the person who put them there. Let's say even with an extreme example of a child or teen doing something that harms another person. Then say the punishment is to take away their device or take away their car if we're talking about a teen. The focus of the child is now on the fact that their car has been taken away and all of the problems that will cause them. They most likely will be angry at the person who is wielding this power over them. If, instead, like you were talking about, we have a conversation about what happened and empower and even help them to make amends, they feel supported and connected and are learning how to repair after a mistake. And that is a skill that will serve them in every personal or professional relationship they will have, because we will always make mistakes. Humans make mistakes! And sometimes those mistakes hurt other people.And I wanted my kids to feel my support, I know we all make mistakes. And I wanted them to know that I'd walk through the repair with them. My priority is always going to be our connection. Because it's from that place of connection that we can navigate the tough stuff that life throws our way. The minute you choose power and punishment over another person, you have lost them. They may still physically be there but they do not feel connected, supported, or understood. Life is going to throw a lot of curve balls at everyone. Learning how to stay connected through the tough stuff just makes things so much easier. And if we find ourselves reaching for punishment as a tool to control situations, we can examine when we are try to control others and see it as red flag, as a sign to step back and see where maybe we're feeling pinched, or where we're feeling controlled. Because it's so often when we're feeling controlled that we clamp down on those around us. But recognizing that, we can then turn to identifying our own underlying needs and begin to address them. We can look to the broader context. Are we feeling under-resourced? Are we feeling a bit disconnected? What's happening contextually for us and for our children? Because, to me, it's just really interesting think about, because punishment isn't a tool we use in adult relationships. Power-over is not a healthy dynamic in any relationship. So, why not start learning the skills of communication and understanding with our kids? Those are the skills they will need, so let's spend our life practicing them together.PAM: I just want to highlight one of the things that you said there, that piece that when we find ourselves reaching for control with enthusiasm, so often it's worth taking a moment to just ask, are there places in my life where I'm feeling a little out of control? Where I feel like someone else is controlling me? Because that energy, I can be shifting and turning outward. So, it's like, okay, I don't feel like I have a lot of control here. I want to get back that feeling of control and maybe in a completely different way, but these are all my emotions. So, they're balancing out in me. If I don't have it here, I'm going to bring it here. So, that is always something that is interesting to look out for when we're feeling that pull to punish.When punishment is a well-used tool in the parenting toolbox, that is the process that kids learn for navigating conflict, for navigating these kinds of situations, and will be what they reach for, as you mentioned, in adult relationships. So, no, they can't send an adult friend to their room or take away their phone, but, as I was thinking about it, they do try other versions of that, the “silent treatment,” which ignores someone like they're not there, and communicating, “I'm mad at you and don't like what you did.” But it's kind of like they've been sent to their room and, “You're out of my life. I'm just going to ignore it.” There are so many unhealthy relationship tools that adults use. They're versions of punishment. Like, how can I punish this person in my life without being able to literally send them to their room? ANNA: Right! It's that blame/fault matrix that just carries over and it's so destructive to personal relationships.PAM: Exactly. So, definitely, we want to learn different tools growing up!I also want to touch on rewards, because at first we can wonder. Rewards are positive things. How on earth could they affect a person's autonomy and learning? But that's the thing. Rewards are directly related to a thing a person, or child, is doing. And it's natural for us to reward the things we like and ignore the things we're indifferent about. Even if we're not punishing the choices they're making that we don't like, when rewards are in the mix, they still get the message.And many kids want to please their parents. They're going to pick up on those subtle cues that “making this choice and doing this thing makes my parents happy so I should do more of it,” and conversely, noticing the choices they make that aren't rewarded. So, they may choose to avoid those things, or do them out of sight so as not to feel judged by the parent's indifference.And at first we might think, “That's great, a way to avoid outright punishments while still managing to manipulate our child's choices in the direction we as parents believe are better.”But again, let's take a closer look at what they're learning and how this approach might unfold over the years. The priority becomes learning the choices the parents do and don't like. Wanting to please their parents, kids can find themselves making choices that, while they are regularly rewarded for them, they don't particularly enjoy. And I know we've all heard stories of kids who are talented in a particular area who grew up with the rewards and expectations of excelling in that sport or skill only to burn out in adulthood and needing to basically build a new life. See how the child's autonomy can be subtly, but impactfully over-ridden.If the child loves the activity, they don't need regular external rewards to keep going. Sure, we definitely want to celebrate the accomplishments along the way that they are keen to celebrate! That's the differentce. I feel like celebrations are so different from rewards. A celebration is focused on the child's wishes, while a reward is based on the parent's wishes. And just that perspective shift makes a world of difference, doesn't it?ANNA: It really does. And I think you're right. That celebrating, we're celebrating their experience, what they're loving about something, what they're bringing to us, versus the reward is this, like, “reach this point and you're going to get this,” which is so external, you know, just the complete opposite of, you know, really doing something from inside your heart and what feels good to you.And absolutely, rewards really are just the flip side of the whole manipulation/control coin. And I think our invitation today is to just consider why. Why do we need to control another person? I think one of my big growth areas years ago that took me some time was understanding that I do not know what's best for another person. Not my spouse, not my kids. I know what's best for me most of the time. Sometimes I still have to figure that out. But that's it. Just me. I can only know what's best for me. And again, I can share the things I've learned along the way, why I've made the choices I've made, what happened when things went sideways and what I learned from that. That's all super interesting information for somebody to have, but it doesn't mean the same choices will end the same way for them. It doesn't mean what works best for me will work best for them. And rewards are interesting, because they do create this external focus that I think can disconnect us with what we truly want, what has meaning for us. And like you said, if you grow up in a reward environment, is it crystal clear what is being considered “good” and what is being considered “bad”. And kids learn what is needed to get the approval of their parents, because, again, there is an innate survival mechanism at play. And my sincere hope was to empower my kids to listen to their bodies and their own inner voice to cultivate a connection with their own unique knowing. And any type of control I would throw in there, be it rewards or punishments, just served to cut them off from that knowing. And I think many of us can think back and see how we had to relearn how to listen to our inner voice and to our bodies over the year. We've spent many years navigating systems and many times family dynamics as well that wanted to control our decisions and tell us what we wanted and what we should do or even who we should be. And it is a process to figure out what we actually wanted, the person we want to be, and to separate those from all of those outside voices. And there is a different way and it fosters that inner knowing. And our children, kids are amazing and so capable! They have clear ideas of what they want and there really are reasons behind it. As we stay connected, have conversations, and learn more about them, we start to understand their choices. We start to really see it through their eyes.And as we share our needs and hear theirs, then we can start working together to meet all the needs. This isn't about handing control of the family to children. It's not about control at all. It's about everyone having autonomy over their life and time and working together to navigate being in relationship with one another. And again, I will just say, learning those skills throughout childhood, I see it in my adult daughters all the time and get feedback from those in their lives who also see that difference, because they've already had two decades of living this way.PAM: Oh, yeah. That's something I just keep saying over and over and over. Kids are so capable. Kids have reasons for the things they do. Kids are making choices, bringing together all they they know, what their experience has been so far, and they're just trying something out. So, I think that's so fascinating.Parents can be really worried. “They'll never make the right choice.” And as you mentioned, when you see through their eyes, you can see why this seemed to be a reasonable choice or a thing that they wanted to do. However, it unfolds, you can see why they went in that direction. It's fascinating and they are so capable. I love that.ANNA: And even if it goes sideways, if we're staying connected to them, then we can talk about that learning. When we're disconnected, we're not able to have those conversations about, “Whew! That went sideways. What do I want to do differently next time?” Because they're worried about being punished or they're worried about us not being connected to them. And so, it's such a lost opportunity when we use those tools of control versus connection. PAM: It's a lost opportunity, not only of learning for everyone, it's a lost opportunity for connection. The connection you feel when you're being supported by someone that you love, someone in your life who is with you when the things go sideways, where we're not worried about punishments being meted out or rewards being withheld, but we're just all there in the mess. In the moment and figuring out how we want to move through it.Life will give us lots of experiences in that way, and we will learn so much about each other and the ways that we want to move through it, or the ways that are helpful for us to process and move through it and so on. So, it is just that so much is lost when we jump to punishments. Because, like we've been talking about this whole episode, that's where everything goes, that's where the focus goes, that's where the conversation goes, that's where the learning goes, all those pieces. So, weaving together these ideas of rewards and punishments and autonomy, I've really enjoyed doing that, because I think it gives us such a richer picture of how children can learn so much about themselves and how they choose to engage with their world. It's fascinating to ponder the often unintended impact of both punishments and rewards and how they can impinge on a child's autonomy. So, here are some questions to ponder this week around these ideas. Number one, think back to when you were a child. Did you get to make many choices about your days? And if so, how did it feel? Did you feel empowered? Did you feel trusted? If not, how did it feel? Was it frustrating? Did it feel like you weren't trusted to make good choices? And who got to define good? That's another big piece. Question two, were you punished as a child? If so, how did it feel? How did it play out for you? Did you spend your punishment time contemplating your crime? Or being angry with the person who set the punishment, feeling it was unfair? Maybe you didn't get a chance to explain your perspective. Over time, did you absorb the message that you were a bad person in general for getting in trouble? Were you more likely to continue the crime, but hide it from your parents? Question three, did your parents reward you pretty regularly growing up? If so, looking back, does it feel like they were trying to use rewards to control your behavior or your choices? Did you find that the rewards influenced your behavior or choices at the time? What, if any, impact did that have on you as an adult? That's so interesting. And number four, I definitely find it so interesting to consider the relationship between a child's autonomy and their learning about themselves as a human being. So, I encourage you to take a couple of minutes to start brainstorming a list of the things you can imagine a child learning through making choices and just seeing how things unfold. And I do think once you get the ball rolling, it may well be hard to stop. ANNA: I think so.PAM: I think that will be a lot of fun. And it just, again, it gets us back to that open and curious mindset. It's just like, you know what? Let's just open things up and put on a new lens and just try things out and let's just see what we discover.ANNA: Because so often, what got us to the place of wanting to control and punish is just, that's what we knew. And so, just try some new ideas and see how it impacts your relationships, see how it impacts just your life satisfaction, see how you all are learning new skills. I think it'll be fun.PAM: Anyway, thank you so much for listening, everyone. Bye!

learning power kids parents navigating parenting explore humans foundations rewards punishment trusted autonomy frustrating anna it anna oh

LJ029: Examining Have To's [Relationships]

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 23, 2023 21:40

We're back with another episode in our Relationships series and we're talking about examining our have to's. We often use the words, "I have to," or "You have to," without even realizing that we're saying them! But those words add weight to our lives and they take away our choices. If, instead, we get curious about our language and start questioning all of the have to's, a whole world of possibilities opens up. It's then that we can learn more about ourselves and our loved ones and really tune in to what we want and need. It's powerful!We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Find our coaching and courses, including Navigating Family Gatherings, in our store at LivingJoyfullyShop.comYou can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!EPISODE QUESTIONS1. Look at the places you are using the words “have to”, find the why and identify some different choices. How does it feel? 2. What areas are you telling the people in your life that they “have to” do something? How does it affect your connection? Initiate a conversation with them to find the why and see if that changes the energy around the request. 3. Use the lens of everything being a choice this week and see if you notice any shifts or recognize any resistance. TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello! And welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can sometimes be tricky because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our introductory Foundation series. If you want to dive deeper, we also have courses and coaching, which you can explore at our living joyfully shop. Follow the link in the show notes, or you can go to LivingJoyfullyShop.com.Okay, so this episode is part of our relationship series, and we will be digging into the idea of have to's. Have to's are an interesting idea to deconstruct. It's part language, part intention, part external noise. And I feel like language is probably the best place to start. When we use the words "have to" for so many things, like it's so ubiquitous. It really has become such a common phrase that we don't even realize the weight it's adding to everything. "I have to go to the store." "I have to call my mom." "I have to do the dishes." "I have to, have to, have to." And then the weight of that is actually even, I feel like, compounded when we put have to's onto our children or to other people in our life. "You have to brush your teeth." "You have to go to bed." "You have to finish the food on your plate." "You have to go to school." "You have to cut the grass." "You have to finish that project." And on the surface, those things may seem like have to's, but orienting to the idea that everything is a choice can really help empower and bring a lot of clarity about our actions.We're going to dive more into that in a minute, but bringing some intentionality to our language can really change the energy. And understanding the why behind the things we're viewing as have to gets us to the root of what's going on and is often where the choice lies.PAM: Yes, yes. I think intentionality can make all the difference in how it feels to do so many things.I think the phrase "have to," is often used as a shortcut. So, skipping right past the intention and into expectation. The language that we use, both when we're speaking to others and when we're speaking to ourselves can make a huge difference in the energy with which we approach the task at hand.So, when I notice myself saying, "I have to do X," I notice that it often feels like a weight and I immediately start to build some resistance to doing that thing that I need to overcome before I can even get started, because apparently I don't like being told what to do.So, to play with that, I just try to change up my language, maybe saying something like, "I want to do X," and just see how that feels. Sometimes my first reaction is no, I do not want to do that. But I can still stay with that for a moment. I might ask myself, "Why might I want to do that?" So, exploring those reasons can help me move from those expectations back to my intentions. I suspect there were originally some reasons that made sense to me that shifted my language into that shortcut realm of "have to," and rediscovering those can help me lean back into, "Oh yeah, that's why I want to do X."So, the language we use, both with ourselves and others, can just be so helpful in more gracefully navigating the ins and outs of our day. I mean, that shortcut, oh, that's going to save me time. I'm going to be more efficient. But eventually, we forget about the intention that was behind it. And that can drag it out. It's definitely worth exploring.ANNA: It starts to carry as a weight. I think that's where the weight comes, because suddenly we're like, "Oh, we've got all these have to's. Where is this coming from? What's happening?" We really have lost sight of why we're there and why we wanted to be there and what was the whole purpose in the beginning. And I just feel like language makes such a difference with that.And I will say that I know saying everything is a choice is something that can sometimes raise hackles for people, because I've been saying this for a very long time. But as soon as you start to break things down, the choice is more evident. And it's often rooted in the why, why we want to do something. I don't have to brush my teeth, but I do because it helps them to remain clean and healthy. It's not the only way. It's one way. And once I understand that, I can make an active choice about how I want to address my, why my need for clean and healthy teeth. Then I'm in control. It's not happening to me. I've regained my agency.And as humans of any age, we want agency over our lives. And yes, this applies to children as well. So, taking that time to find the choice with our children paves the path for learning, growth, and empowerment. They don't have to go to bed. They might want to, if they need to be up early the next day, or they might not. They might be fine with a couple nights of getting less sleep and then they may want to sleep in longer the next night. They might try it and learn that it didn't feel good the next day and they tease out what works for them.But the learning in that is so much more robust than being told what to do, where what we're learning at that point is that they have no agency and are supposed to do what someone else thinks they should do. And when we walk that out just a tiny bit, we can see what a slippery slope that is, disconnecting them from that understanding. And we'll talk more about autonomy in our next episode, but it just wanted to plant that little seed for now.The important piece, I think, to consider today is, what does it feel like to realize that everything is a choice? What I know for myself is that as soon as I think something isn't a choice, I need to stop. I need to take a breath and get back to my why, because there is a reason I'm doing whatever task is at hand.It serves some purpose in a bigger picture. And as soon as I can identify my why, I can start to see the choices.So, I can stare at a full sink of dirty dishes and think, "I've got to clean these dishes." The reality of it is, I don't. I could go out to dinner. We could use paper plates. I can throw all the dishes away. And while I might not do that, sometimes it's helpful to take it to the extreme because again, it highlights the choice. Then, if I do the dishes, I know that I've decided it's the choice that best serves me in that moment.And so, even if we look at jobs, because this one I'll come up a lot with the jobs are important. They are. If my job is feeling like a have to, though, I really want to examine what's going on, because of course I can quit. There will be consequences to that, but I don't have to go to work. And if we look on the smaller scale, let's say I don't have to go to work that particular day. If I was sick or there was an accident, I wouldn't be there and the world wouldn't end.If I find that I'm feeling bad as an ongoing pattern, then I want to look at the bigger picture to find my choice and my why again. Maybe I choose to go because it's an easy commute and the hours work well with the rest of my life. Okay. I'm back to understanding my why.When the time comes that those things aren't enough, then maybe it's time to look beyond that job and start to find the priorities that are bubbling up in my life at this current moment. But if I stay in that "have to" place, I just end up resenting the job, probably not doing it very well. And then that discontent bleeds into the rest of my life.I want to catch that as early as possible and ground back into my knowing that everything is a choice. It may take a minute to see it, and I might still end up making the same choice that called it all into question, but it will feel so different. And that energy makes all the difference in my overall engagement and just joy.PAM: Yeah. I find it so interesting to remind myself that I have a choice, particularly at those times when I feel like I don't, right? At first it can be confronting, but it can definitely be fun and enlightening to find the choices that are buried underneath all those expectations that we've brought in.And one that comes to mind for me is attending family gatherings through the holiday season. It can sure feel like I "have to," but again, it's really, really not. Do I actually want to go? I can ask myself that. As you mentioned, if I was sick in the hospital, I wouldn't be going and nobody would be hassling me about not being there.And you mentioned going to the extreme as well. And it's interesting that we sometimes need to do that to remember that our wishes have value in this choice. But it can also be such a great way to just knock loose that initial "have to" pull. "If I broke my leg and I'm in the hospital, I wouldn't have to go to work.I wouldn't have to go to the family gathering," all those pieces.So, what I find really interesting is that once I can just release that "have to" my resistance to it also fades, and I can actually start contemplating the choice itself. So, I start to envision what I would do instead of doing that thing and what I would miss by not going.So, that leads me to ask myself why I might want to go. And again, once the expectation is released, those intentions have space to start bubbling up. Now I can acknowledge, maybe there are a couple of things that I enjoy about attending and I can start looking forward to actually going. And even more interesting, if I choose to go, as you mentioned, I now realize what I enjoy about it and my energy when I show up is anticipation rather than feeling put upon and looking to leave as soon as possible. "I have to stay for two hours and then I won't get in trouble," etc. And when I'm there, I'm also intentional about engaging in the things that I was looking forward to, because I've thought about it now. Maybe it is striking up a conversation with a particular cousin or an aunt who's going to be there or leading a fun game of charades for whoever wants to play, or just enjoying the food that we don't normally get to eat.So, I can soak in the pieces that fill me up, enjoying the whole experience much more than if I just showed up because I have to. There's another tick box that I filled. So, even if I do that expected thing, my experience can be very different just because I remembered that it was my choice to go.ANNA: Oh my gosh. I love that example, because I'm sure it's one that many of us can identify and have. faced, probably, at some point over our lifetime. And understanding our choice and operating from that place really does allow us to move through a holiday season with intention, more joy, we aren't being dragged around and controlled by have to's. We're choosing with intention and that energy changes everything.And I think it helps to realize that, so often, these have to's are actually external voices weighing in with agendas or prescriptions and those voices tend to champion a singular path. "You have to go to college, you have to get married, you have to buy a house, you have to play sports, you've got to play an instrument, you have to learn a language." But you can see with those how it's saying way more about the speaker than it is about you or your child.So, people have their biases and there's a comfort in moving other people towards the path that feels comfortable to them. I'm sure I've been guilty of it, too. But like we've been talking about since the beginning, people are so different. And there are so many different paths to learning and growth and for just being a human.Being aware of where the voices are coming from gives us so much information. We can start to see that it is more about the other person, and perhaps that's something that they want in their life. And then we have a choice, if we want to take that on as our own, or if our inner voice is leading us in another direction. And I have found 9 times out of 10, have to's are coming from these external sources and I really don't want to be buffeted around by other people's expectations of me. I want to tune in to my inner knowing and decide on the path that makes the most sense to my life and to the relationships that I want to cultivate.And again, it's just bringing intention to that and recognizing that, okay, that's outside of me. What is in me? What do I want to do going forward?PAM: Yeah, yeah, that's definitely been my experience with so many of the have to's that bounce around my head, and as you said, sometimes come out of my mouth, have much more to do with expectations from others that I have just absorbed over the years.So, basically a mix of all of the conventional wisdom that surrounds all the things I need to do to be successful in society's eyes. And it really can take a while to tease that apart from what I actually think and feel, because they have become so intimately intertwined. And, in fact, it didn't take long for examining my have to's to become questioning my definition of success, right?I realized I have absorbed what success looks like over time, but what does success actually mean to me? And that really helps me tease apart the things that I actually feel motivated to do. And I could be motivated to do things I don't particularly enjoy, because they help move me along a path to a bigger picture goal.And I find it more helpful to recognize that bigger picture than try to keep beating myself up with, "You have to do this," over and over and over. Just remembering why I'm choosing to do this. Even if I didn't really feel like getting up early to do the thing, or I didn't really feel like working on it this afternoon, et cetera, but recognizing that bigger picture can really help me realize that it's not a "have to," it's an, "I choose to." And as you said, Anna, there are just so many different paths, because people are so different. That one-size-fits-all approach of the conventional path doesn't actually fit well for very many people. So many outliers.ANNA: True, and it can take years to unpack that and to find the path that truly makes the most sense to us, especially if it happens to be a bit more alternative or not fit into the narrow lines that we've been told. But I think understanding all of this that we've been talking about in this episode, we can bring intentionality to our language. We can release the agendas that are being handed to us and find our own unique paths. We can understand and help articulate our why and help our children find and articulate theirs. Through that process, we learn more about them. We learn more about ourselves. And I've just found it really empowering. And it's just also a red flag that I look for when I'm feeling a little disenfranchised or a little dysregulated, or just not feeling happy with what's happening in my life, this is usually a good place for me to go. What am I putting as weight or have to's? What's happening? And to find that why, to find those reasons, to look at that bigger picture, like you were saying, and then suddenly I'm like, oh, I've got it. I know why I'm here. I know why this is feeling that way. And here are the things I can change. So, there's just a lot there.PAM: I know it, it really is. It's such a simple concept, such a simple idea, when you notice yourself saying "have to," especially if you don't go, "Oh, yay!" it is so worth digging into. Because it doesn't have to take a long time. Some are a little bit harder to dig into than others, a little bit more challenging. But it's just so worth taking that extra minute or two to reground ourselves in why we want to do the thing, because literally it changes our energy, because we found our intention.We bring a more intentional energy to it. We can appreciate the act of doing the thing, whatever it is. Even if it's doing the dishes, remembering that I'm choosing it. Ah, now I'm going to set myself up to enjoy this a little bit more or I'm going to more intentionally bring some zen energy to it or whatever it is that I have found that I can appreciate. Or maybe it's like, Ooh, what I appreciate is having it done and let's see, how can I speed it up? It brings back that playful energy that we talk about so much, right?ANNA: Exactly. Open and curious. What can we do to change that feeling that weight that we're carrying around about a particular thing? And I think you're right. It's that combination of finding that why and then, like, okay, what can I do to make this feed me and be more interesting or bring in something different? And so, yeah, I love that point as well.So, just a few questions to ponder this week. First, let's look at places where you find yourself using the words "have to." Find the why and identify the different choices. And how does it feel? What does that process feel like to really dig in there a little bit?And second, look for areas where maybe you're telling other people in your life that they have to do something. Step back a bit and look at how is that impacting your connection, maybe initiate a conversation with them to understand their why, to talk about your why, and see if that changes the energy around the request in general.And then I would just say, let's use the lens of everything being a choice. Even if your hackles were raised when you heard it at first, just bring it in and see how it feels this week. And just see if you notice any shifts or if you recognize the resistance and then look at that. Because again, when I'm feeling like I don't have a choice, that is my red flag to like, whoa, I want to understand where that's coming from and look at what can I do? What can I do to release some of that weight?PAM: I really do find that is such a fun question. What if I didn't do that? What would happen? It is really interesting, because so often we've got that weight of, oh, there'd be so much trouble and all these people would be mad at me. And it's so interesting to just contemplate, because then, even if you're sure you would never not do the thing, it's that shift to realizing, but it's a choice. Everything is a choice.ANNA: Right. I absolutely want to do it, because this is what feels best to me. And then, oh, my gosh, it's just so different to just go, "I want to do this." And so, right. I just find it such a valuable process. I'm so curious how that lands for everyone and what they uncover over the next week. But anyway, thank you so much for listening. And we will see you next time. Take care.

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LJ028: Validating Children [Parenting]

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 19, 2023 24:39

We're back with a new episode in our Parenting series and we're talking about validation again. And this time, we're diving into what it looks like to validate our children. It can be hard to understand or identify with our children's big emotions sometimes. But even then, validating our children's emotions and experiences is such a powerful way to connect with them and help them move through challenging moments. Making sure that children feel heard and seen helps them better understand their internal experience and leads to stronger communication skills. Validation really is a game changer for any age!We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. Explore our courses and coaching at https://livingjoyfullyshop.com/.EPISODE QUESTIONS1. Similar to a question from the previous validation episode, over the next couple of weeks, practice seeing moments through the eyes of your child. Not just ones where they're upset, but also ones where they're excited or happy. Can you see why they are expressing that emotion in that moment?2. Do you find it hard, particularly with your children, to not project their behavior in this moment into the future? If so, take some time to ponder how that may interfere with navigating this moment and try out some new self-talk to help you transition back into the present moment.3. Do big emotions feel triggering for you? It's worth taking some time to dig deeper into that to help detangle your feelings from their feelings, which can be really helpful when we're trying to validate someone else. You can check out episode 21 to explore triggers specifically.TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello! And welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can sometimes be challenging, because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflicts and increase connection in your most important relationships.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our introductory Foundation series. If you want to dive deeper, we also have courses and coaching which you can explore in our Living Joyfully Shop. Follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfullyshop.com.This episode is part of our Parenting series, and it follows from the recent validation episode in our relationship series, episode 26. Today, we're gonna look at validation specifically through the lens of our relationships with our children.In the earlier episode, we talked about the importance of seeing through the other person's eyes to help us empathize with them, and that is just as valuable with our children. I think sometimes our society devalues and minimizes children's feelings, thinking they get upset over silly things. But in my experience, that is just not true.To experience that yourself, we need to bring two of the tools we talked about last time into our interactions with our kids and that's seeing through their eyes and not having an agenda. Their actions and reactions often really do make sense when we look at the situations through their eyes, when we consider their experiences so far in life, their perspective on the situation at hand, their goal in the moment, and the different aspects of their personality.Very often, when we bring those all together, when we see what this moment looks like through their eyes, their actions and reactions make sense. This is their truth. Regardless of what it looks like through our eyes, this is what it looks like through their eyes. Full stop.And also, how we would process and move through this moment may well not work for them. When we meet them where they are, when they feel seen and heard, and when we support them in moving forward in ways they want to explore, we help them learn so much about themselves. Of course, that means releasing our agenda around what that looks like and helping them find what it looks like for them.When it comes to our children, we often think we need to teach them what it looks like, but they are different people than us. Again, different experiences, goals, personalities. Chances are what works for us won't work well for them.ANNA: Oh my gosh, it's so true. And I'm very excited that we're talking about validation related to our children. When people are wondering, how do I improve my relationship with my child or teen, this is it.And so, I want to start with a quote from Brené Brown that's kind of related to this, and it's just a simple quote and it says, "In order to empathize with someone's experience, you must be willing to believe them as they see it and not how you imagine their experience to be."So, just another twist on what we were saying about seeing through their eyes, but it's such a critical step. So, however we can get it to land for someone, because many times, what someone is feeling in the moment may not make sense to us. And when we're talking about children and big emotions at times, it can be truly baffling.We can wonder, how did we get here? But what we can do is trust that what they're expressing in this moment is their truth. Full stop, like you said.PAM: Yes. It's not manipulative at all. This is what they're seeing and what they're feeling in this moment. It just is.ANNA: Right now, in this moment. And when we can hear that and reflect back our understanding, it helps them move through the big emotions.They aren't put in a position of defending why they're feeling a certain way. And if, in fact, we hear them start defending, you can be pretty sure that we're making it about us. And that defending we're hearing is about our lack of understanding. And that's the red flag, and it isn't helping them process the upset in front of them at all.So, it's important to start from the understanding that with validation, we're not trying to solve it. We're not trying to downplay or tamp down their emotions or anything about the experience at all. We're tuning in to understand their feelings and the intensity around what is happening for them without agenda, without judgment. And as you said, this is a critical piece, because it's very easy to fall into judgment. It's very easy to go, "Why are they so upset? What is this about? This is ridiculous." But we need to quiet that judgment because that is just going to escalate, escalate, escalate, and disconnect.And validation is such a wonderful tool, and it's absolutely critical for these strong connections so that we can all feel heard and understood.PAM: Yeah, it really, really is. And to meet our children with empathy and validate their experience, it is really helpful to have a sense of the underlying needs they're trying to meet and the context of how that is playing out in the circumstances of the moment.We talk about underlying needs so often, but it's so valuable, right?And for me, that follows along from seeing things through their eyes. That gets me asking myself the question as to what need is underneath there. So, not just that they're upset because their sibling won't give them a toy, but noticing that the toy they're wanting is say a stuffed tiger that over in the far corner you see, they've placed blocks three high into squares, and that two of the squares hold a stuffed bear and a plastic ostrich respectfully while a third pen is empty, which reminds you of your family trip to the zoo last week, and you go, oh, they're playing out that scene.You also know that this child in particular likes to process things through play. So, now it's making more sense that they're so intent on the stuffed tiger, remembering how much they enjoyed watching the tigers at the zoo last week over the big pile of random stuffies on the floor next to the kids. "Why does it have to be this stuffy?" It's going to be easier to validate them now that we better understand what this moment looks like to them and what it feels like to them.That is such an important step because we want to avoid making those dismissive statements like, "It's not a big deal. Just grab another stuffed toy." Or, "Why do you get so upset at such little things?" Because comments like that can leave a child feeling misunderstood. Definitely not feeling seen and heard and loved for who they are.Having spoken with lots of parents over the years, when it comes to upsets, it's pretty common to think, but I don't want to validate these big emotions. It feels like I'm giving them permission to do it even more, but you're really, really not. Over time, our kids develop tools that help them navigate hard moments by being heard and working through these kinds of hard moments as they arise with a trusted person.Validation and working through these moments is what helps them develop the self-awareness to notice when their emotions are rising and explore some tools for their toolbox that help them take action before they bubble over. That is what helps lessen the frequency, not being told they're overreacting and have to stop it right now. We're expecting them to figure out on their own how to stop their emotions from spilling over, just because you told them to stop. Right?So, another aspect of validation to consider is, it's less about validating the emotion itself and more about validating the circumstances that led to the emotion, because that's where the richer learning lies. So, for example, maybe they're playing a video game and get upset when they can't accomplish something they're trying to do. If, wanting to validate, we say, "Oh, I see you're so angry." Well, yes, they're expressing anger, but once we focus on the emotion, where does the conversation go from there?Maybe they respond with an even louder, "Yes! I'm so mad!"But if we can bring more context in, we might say something like, "I know you were so excited to try that level today. I'm sorry it's been so frustrating." And we sit with them. We're sending the message that it's okay, their feelings totally make sense.Maybe they were feeling angry and we helped them notice the underlying frustrations. See, notice that I had used the word frustration instead of anger. Maybe their feelings felt a bit over the top to them, even. They were like, why the heck am I so mad about this? And we helped them see how they got there, that they were extra excited about playing this level and that's why they are extra bummed right now. I mean, right there, there's so much learning.ANNA: Oh my gosh. So much learning for everyone. And I want to talk a minute about examining our language, because it's so important that we want to use language that will help us get to the underlying need and make sure that we're maintaining the connection. And to that end, avoiding those definitive type "you are" statements is a great place to start.We want to be open, we want to inquire, we want to reflect back what we're seeing from the person and the situation, like you were talking about there, that frustration, knowing what they were wanting to do with the game.And we can give language to emotions, but not in a way that feels like we're defining who they are. And that's an important nuance. It can be phrased like, "It sounds like," or, "What I'm hearing," or, "I remember that you were wanting to do this and that's feeling frustrating. Is that what's going on?" Or, "Tell me more about it.I really want to understand." And just that piece, that earnest, "I really want to understand" can bring down intense energy, because they know they don't have to fight to be heard or understood. They can see that we're engaged and present and trying, and you can then rephrase in whatever way feels good to you.But it's about being clear in our intentions of trying to understand, of seeking clarification, that helps the person know that we're engaged. And that we know their feelings are valid, even if we don't fully understand them yet. And that's okay. We don't have to instantly understand. But it's that willingness, it's that earnestness, it's that care.And so, I'm just going to run through a quick example from siblings. So, "I hate my sister!" Okay? So, this is one that some of us have heard. And it can spark this kind of protective instinct that can end up bringing more charge to an already charged situation. But if instead we can hear that type of language and come into the room like, "Whoa, how is everybody? It sounds like maybe you've had enough. Are you wanting to be alone?" And then that kind of questioning can lead the child. Maybe they say, "Well, I don't want to be alone, but she's not listening to me," or whatever the thing is. And then we might say, "Okay. So, I really want to understand. Is it about what you're playing now? Or that she's not hearing you? Or you're done with this game? What do you need her to hear?"And then that drills us down to the issue and it becomes something that we can actually find a solution for. Because, "I hate my sister," doesn't really provide a path forward, but dismissing that with, "Oh, but she means well," or, "You love her," or, "She loves you," or even worse, judgmental language like, "That's not nice. We don't say things like that," all of those dismissing phrases, it puts the person on the defensive and humans just double down when we're on the defensive.But if we can get to those issues, if they feel heard, and then they can move forward with some solutions. If it's about listening, we can help facilitate a conversation that moves us towards a solution. And just in case HALT is involved, which we talked about, hungry, angry, lonely, tired, I would just move those discussions to the kitchen for a snack while we sorted things out, just in case hungry was involved.And I also wanted to be really aware of avoiding dismissing statements like, "You're too sensitive," or, "This is not a big deal." Or, "Why do you get so upset at everything?" Or, "You can't take a joke?" These are things that some of us heard, especially sensitive people, in our childhood, and it just feels terrible. All of those statements and anything like them are so disconnecting. And it just leaves the person not feeling understood, not connected, and you feel like you'll never be connected, because they'll never understand you.So instead, we can offer kindness. We can offer love and support. That is what helps maintain our connection and it allows the person space to move through their emotions knowing that they're valid.But here's the thing, our emotions are valid and nothing good comes from stuffing them down or denying them. And if we have the space to process, we will learn the tools and subsequent situations may not be charged, because like you said, people may think, "But I don't want to validate these big emotions, it's just gonna be more."And maybe it seems like a paradox, but it isn't, and you mentioned it too. We develop the tools by being heard and by working through the upset, especially with a trusted person as a child, working through with a trusted advisor, a parent who hears them and acknowledges, that helps them find the tools to move forward and to even understand their own emotions, because that's what it's all about for little kids, especially as they're trying to understand the emotions.Everything feels big and they want to know what's happening? How do I move through it? Because it can feel so unsettling and scary even. And by being validated and heard, it allows them to process all the big things that they're feeling. And it can be really valuable in the process of helping them find words.For example, we've talked about before, angry behavior is often an expression of another emotion. It could be frustration, like you talked about with the video games, or it could be hurt or loneliness. And digging into that can help a person move forward. So often, when we uncover that underlying emotion, it removes the block that we're seeing. People can stay stuck in that emotion, that kind of higher level, that angry type of emotion until that underlying emotion is identified and understood. And they really don't even understand why they're stuck there until we start to identify it.Reflecting back what you're seeing, being open and kind, and helping them uncover that underlying need and feeling, gives them the tools to excavate that for themselves as they grow.And the more clearly we can express our needs, the easier time we have in all of our relationships. So, it's such a valuable skill to practice with our kids, both for their growth and honestly for our own.PAM: Yeah. Really. We all grow. Getting into these conversations and really seeing through their eyes and validating their experiences can help us learn so much as well.So, something else that can trip us up as we try to validate our children's experience and emotions is projecting this moment into the future. When we start thinking things like, "Are they going to get this upset every time they don't get their way?" we can feel like we need to nip this in the bud right now. And that is fear talking.You can feel the or else hanging off the end of that thought, right? Or else they'll still be acting this way when they're 25 and they won't have any friends. When fear gets into the mix, tunnel vision soon follows, and we are much less able to see the bigger context of the current moment.Where can we most help them understand themselves and explore other ways to navigate these kinds of challenges? Well, right now, in this moment. Projecting into the future definitely makes this much harder.And one other thing I want to mention explicitly is that the ways we validate different people can look very different. Which, I mean, if you've been listening to this podcast past for any length of time is not much of a surprise right now. How can we help THIS child feel seen and heard in THIS challenging moment? So, for some it's about joining them where they are, reflecting back to them, our understanding of them in this moment, validating the intense feelings they're feeling as they're feeling them. That helps them feel seen, heard, and more able to get to a place where they're ready to move forward.For others, it may be about holding space for them without words, in the heat of the moment. Conversations are for later, but even holding that space can feel validating to someone. Our calm presence can communicate that they aren't being judged for having these big emotions or being rushed to move through them to make others comfortable.The energy of a loving and compassionate space being held for them can feel validating, and then more validation and processing can happen in conversation later when the intensity has passed. So either way, in those later conversations, we can also ask them what they'd like us to do to help them next time they're feeling overwhelmed with big emotions. We can try that next time and then check in again to see how it felt. We can tweak it and try the new plan next time, over and over.I just think it's so helpful because when people start thinking about validation, so often they think it's something they need to say, but our actions, even silent actions, can be validating as well.ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. And I feel like this is where it's so important to know your child, your partner, and honestly, yourself. Because, for many people in the heat of an upset, they don't want words, but they also often don't want to be left alone. So when we have those big emotions, it can be scary, especially for children, but really for anyone. When people run away or try to stop the emotion, it just feels terrible.So, if instead we can show that unconditional love and stay present, it helps the big emotions wash through without the added weight of, how are they landing on this person I love? We don't have to feel bad about the feelings. And that can help us move through them. And when verbal validation is not welcome in the heat of the moment, there are so many ways to be present and validate without words just being that calm presence, like you mentioned. Some may want to physically be held, others may just want us sitting nearby or on the other side of the room, but still there. It could be fetching a comforting toy or something that feels good to them. It could be moving them to a quiet space, because we can tell there's some sensory overwhelm in that particular situation. Or maybe it's clearing the room if they're not able to move, maybe shepherding other people out to something fun so that we can bring the sensory input down in that way. It can be getting food and water.We had this thread in the Living Joyfully Network where we talked about what we needed personally to feel heard and validated and seen in an upset, and it was fascinating. Everyone was so different. I personally want to be alone. I need to process before I'm ready to have anyone else's energy in that situation. But others wanted someone there the whole time, even if they said they didn't want anything and didn't want them to stay, which I thought was fascinating and a little bit confusing.But it's so important and it's why it's so helpful to have these conversations outside of the heat of the moment, so there just aren't misunderstandings and we can be present for the people we love in the way that they need us, not necessarily in the way that would feel good to us. Understanding those nuances of how we move through things can really help.And I think what I loved about the thread was it showed how different we all are, and recognizing those differences in us as adults who were the people that were responding, helps us see that it's different for our kids, too. Each of our children are going to have their own ways that feel validating for them and the things that they need in any given moment.And for people who prefer non-verbal, again, there's so many things you can do. So, whenever I hear someone say, "Well, my child doesn't like to be validated," I'm just like, hmm. We need to get curious and tweak our approach a little bit, because it's probably not tuning into what feels validating to them. Because I think what's often easiest is we do what would feel validating to us in the moment. Again, we're putting ourselves in their shoes versus seeing through their eyes, because I will firmly stand on the belief that every human wants to be heard and seen in a way that feels good to them.And so, let's figure out what helps them feel good. Let's figure out what helps them move through an upset. And we do that by having conversations outside of the heated moments and just learning about one another.PAM: Exactly. I mean, learning how to validate my children was one of the biggest game changers in my relationships with them. I do think absolutely, we all want to feel seen and heard and loved for who we are. I mean, even for myself, any age, any age. I feel it makes all the difference when it comes to cultivating connection and trust in our relationships.So, here are some questions to ponder this week around this idea. Number one, similar to a question from the previous validation episode, over the next couple of weeks, practice seeing moments through the eyes of your child, not just ones where they're upset, but also ones where they're excited or happy. Can you see why they are expressing that emotion in that moment? That should be fun.Number two, do you find it hard, particularly with your children, to not project their behavior in this moment into the future? If so, take some time to ponder how that may interfere with navigating this moment and try out some new self-talk to help you transition back into the present moment.ANNA: That's an important one.PAM: I know, right? Yes, that just got me thinking about all the times. That transition is very familiar, because it is so easy to go, oh my gosh, you know?ANNA: Is it always going to be like this? No, just come back to the moment in front of you.PAM: That's where we can have the most impact.ANNA: And the learning, right? That's where the learning is on their part. On our part. That's where the practice is. That's where the trying on the tools are, and that's how we shape the future, is by tending to the moment in front of us.PAM: Exactly. Beautifully said. Okay. Number three, do big emotions feel triggering for you? It's worth taking some time to dig deeper into that, to help detangle your feelings from their feelings, which can be really helpful when we're trying to validate someone else. So, you can check out episode 21 to explore triggers specifically, if this is something that you're finding as well.ANNA: Definitely.PAM: Thanks so much, Anna, and thanks so much everyone for listening. We will see you next time!

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LJ027: Self-Awareness: Assume Positive Intent [Conflicts]

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 21, 2023 20:39

We're back with a new episode in our Conflicts series and we're talking about assuming positive intent. It's so common to take someone's words or actions personally and assume that they are trying to irritate, thwart, or hurt us. This happens because we naturally see things from our own perspective. But going into a conversation with those assumptions is pretty much guaranteed to put the other person on the defensive, making productive conversation and connection basically impossible. Assuming positive intent means assuming everyone is doing the best they can in the moment, and that mindset shift can improve our communication and strengthen our relationships.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. Explore our courses and coaching at https://livingjoyfullyshop.com/.EPISODE QUESTIONS1. Think back to a time when someone gave you the benefit of the doubt and contrast that with a time when someone assumed the worst in you. How did you feel? How did you react? How did it impact your relationship with that person moving forward?2. Think of some recent exchanges - were you feeling defensive? Did you notice the other person defending? Think about how assuming positive intent could have changed that. 3. This week, notice the stories you're telling yourself about other people's actions. How often are you assuming positive intent? Do you find it hard to do? Why?4. Think of a recent exchange with someone in which you felt defensive. Did you notice the other person defending in response? How long were you stuck there? How might have assuming positive intent and holding space to learn more changed how things played out? 5. Are there particular people in your life to whom you don't typically give the benefit of the doubt? Try on assuming positive intent for the next while. How does that shift things?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can sometimes be challenging because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflicts and increase connection in your most important relationships.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our Foundation Series. In them, we talk about our favorite fundamental relationship ideas and tools. If you hear us mentioning a concept over and over again, chances are it has its own episode in the Foundation Series. You can also visit our shop and find the Foundation Series in a podcast collection bundle to be emailed to you weekly, including transcripts and questions.You can find the link in the show notes, or you can go to livingjoyfullyshop.com. There you can also find information about our coaching, as well, so if you'd like to talk through things that are happening in your relationship and find a healing path forward, that's the place to go. We both work with individuals and couples and again, link in the show notes, or you can go to livingjoyfullyshop.com.So, this episode is part of our Conflict Series and our mini-series inside of that about developing our self-awareness. So, today we're diving into assuming positive intent. This principle is a quick tool that helps us stay connected and open.I think, culturally, we tend to assign negative intent. Our first thought is that someone is doing something to thwart us or irritate us or that they don't have a clue. But so often, that's not the case. And whether it is or isn't, going into a conversation with those assumptions is pretty much guaranteed to put the other person on the defensive, which makes having any sort of productive and connecting conversation basically impossible.And as with so many things we talk about, this plays into being the person we want to be in the world. I want to assume the best in people, because I've seen when I do that, it's often what I find. We are all doing the best we can at any given moment. And that best can change dramatically based on the contextual pieces of life.When we are under-resourced, our ability to think clearly and act with intention is clouded. I want to be a person that allows space and grace for that, because I know there have been plenty of times that I've been there and I've needed that from others. So, assuming positive intent can be assuming that the person is doing the best they can in this moment with the circumstances as they are.PAM: Absolutely. I just love that piece about how doing their best can look very different from one day to the next, or one moment to the next. It's not about thinking what their theoretical best looks like, measuring them in this moment against what they would do if they were feeling fully resourced, fully rested, fully fed, in a great frame of mind, and so on. They really are doing their best in this moment. This is what it looks like. It's the best they can muster. Let's meet them there with as much grace and compassion as we can muster.Over the years, assuming positive intent has become such a helpful touchstone for me when it comes to relationships, particularly with partners, kids, longtime friends, where we have a history. And I can be quick to assume I understand them and tell myself a story about why they're saying or doing something.And as you said, I am apt to tell a negative version of the story about the situation or to feel put upon or ignored or misjudged. And it's not surprising. We are looking at the world through our eyes and evaluating what's happening around us through that lens. How does this affect me? But what assuming positive intent does is remind me that there is almost always more to the story than just my perspective, knowing that they're doing the best they can right now, whatever that looks like to me at first, encourages me to widen my lens and get curious. So, so, so many times over the years, this buffer step has saved me from actively jumping in, misinterpreting things, blaming others, which all create even more rifts in our relationship that need repair.ANNA: I mean, it is such a great reminder to look through their eyes, which I know we talk about a lot, but it's so important. It just helps so much.And we're going to make some assumptions. But starting from that place of assuming the best, or at the very least, giving the benefit of the doubt, just sets the stage for us to learn more and to not fall into that blaming or writing stories that can get us off track.And another piece I think that helps with assuming positive intent is to understand that underneath every behavior is a need. We had an episode on this idea as it relates to parenting, episode 25, and as we mentioned there, this is true for everyone. We try to meet our needs through our behaviors, and while sometimes the somewhat linear process, "I'm thirsty and I'm going to get a drink now," sometimes it's a bit harder to recognize, especially from the outside.But part of assuming positive intent is understanding that the person you're dealing with is trying to meet a need. At that particular moment, your needs might not be aligned, but if we can slow things down and give some space to find the underlying needs, that's the space where we can find solutions. That surface-level conflict that seems insurmountable and at complete odds, that can just melt away as we figure out the needs involved and address those.So, let's say if a person's working for you and they haven't turned in a report, instead of assuming that they're irresponsible or don't care, look for that underlying need. Have an open conversation with the energy of wanting to understand. Maybe you find out that they've had several fires they've been putting out that took priority, or they didn't understand the request, or that they were waiting for some information from a third party before they could finish it.Being open and not jumping to conclusions gives you a chance to find out what's happening under the behavior of not turning in the report, and then you can both work together to solve the problem at hand instead of creating friction or a rupture by making a harsher assumption. And there may be things that need to be addressed or systems that need to be changed, but you're only going to get there if you can have that open conversation where the person's not on the defensive and really telling you what's going on.And part of what we can practice with our partners, children, and the people in our lives is providing additional information. But the space for that to feel safe is in the space of assuming positive intent. There, we can have these clarifying conversations. We can explain how things are feeling to us and really hear what the other person's experiencing.PAM: Yeah, exactly. Because if we assume that the first story that pops into our head is the right one, so often what we're doing is putting the other person in the position of having to correct us. And that is a hard thing to do in any relationship, whether with a loved one or a supervisor, or even a newer acquaintance.So, assuming positive intent helps us cultivate that space for further conversation where we can just learn more about what's up, where we can discover the underlying needs they were trying to meet with whatever words, action, behavior they used. The valuable thing about focusing on the needs is that there are often multiple ways to meet them, some of which may have less negative impact on others.So, we can also share our needs in this context and all this bigger picture information helps us work towards a plan that everyone involved is reasonably comfortable with.And I wanted to mention, while it may seem that assuming positive intent and having these conversation takes up precious time we don't feel we have, not doing it is likely to take up maybe even more time down the road, as we continue to butt heads, because we're missing some fundamental understanding of each other's needs and goals. Then you add the time to repair the relationship. Or if you don't, the extra time things take in the future because one or both of you are dragging your feet because you just want to avoid engaging with each other in the first place.ANNA: Oh my gosh, so much. I'd much rather spend the time upfront in a connecting conversation with an eye to understanding each other, rather than dealing with hurt feelings and misunderstandings on the back end.And I really think, in the end, it's more efficient, because we're actually getting to the needs and solving any roadblocks, versus pressing ahead with made up stories and assigning malicious intent that ends up creating these huge disconnects that take time and effort to heal and we still may not be addressing the need underneath. And so, it just keeps repeating.Another big aspect of this is releasing any defensiveness on our part. A person's actions say way more about them than about us. They give us a clue as to what's going on for them, and we can assume positive intent. They have the space and the desire to let us in on what those things are, but if we react with defensiveness, communication just shuts down every time and it becomes this attack and defend tit-for-tat dynamic or a stalemate, and then we're stuck. So, we aren't learning anymore about the needs driving the behavior or what contextual pieces might be at play. We're not learning anything about those pieces that are so critical. And all of this draws out the conflict and doesn't move us towards solutions.So, assuming positive intent leaves space to get to the bottom of things faster without sparking that defensiveness in the other person and we can own our own pieces, too, to not get defensive. And I think we can all think of how nice it feels when someone gives us the benefit of the doubt and doesn't assume the worst, even if we're not at our best, or especially if we've made a mistake. Because usually, we're so hard on ourselves. We're beating ourselves up about the mistakes. So, then having that compounded just creates this cycle. Recognizing that's at play, it just makes it easier for me to give that gift to other people in my life, whether we're in a close relationship or it's just transactional.For me, again, it boils down to being the person I wanna be in the world. And the bonus is that it really just makes everything go so much more smoothly. We move through and often avoid conflict, and we get to the root of things without that defensiveness that can feel so unpleasant and without those misunderstandings that can cause a lot of hurt feelings.PAM: Yeah, so much. Things unfold more smoothly and often more quickly when people aren't feeling judged and defensive. And it makes sense. Getting stuck in that repetition of attack, defend, attack, defend, slows things down so much, while also not getting to the root of the issue or the underlying needs.And along those lines, I find it helpful to remember that assuming positive intent isn't about, instead telling myself a positive story and acting from there, because that is still making it about me and my interpretation, my need to infer a story and to be right about it.But as you said, Anna, their actions really are all about them. It's their story. So instead, for me, assuming positive intent is more about knowing there's a story and not jumping to conclusions, particularly the negative ones, because that just makes moving through the moment even more challenging. Getting curious instead of getting stuck in defensiveness helps create that space for the kinds of honest, non-judgmental conversations that will help everyone better understand the needs at play and find interesting ways to meet them.ANNA: Yeah, I think that assuming positive intent, it's just a way to give some space around things. We aren't writing a story at all. We're acknowledging that there's more to the situation than just what we're seeing. There always is more. There just always is. And leaving space for that. Asking for clarification without any negative energy or agenda just puts us in the best position to learn more and move forward.And to say it again, we are all doing the best we can in any given moment. Keeping that in mind, assuming positive intent helps us uncover the needs that are driving the behaviors that we're seeing.All of which helps us stay connected to the important people in our life and avoid unnecessary conflict with them or anyone we come across.PAM: I just go back to that for the nth time already, but doing the best we can in any given moment, I think it can be challenging for people to believe. Like, "I've seen them handle this so much better before."ANNA: Or, "They should be able to," when we catch ourselves saying, "They should be able to," that's a red flag.PAM: That's always a great clue. But also when, in our mind we're like, "Okay, I could do this, which would be like better. But I do this other thing anyway. It's what I reach for." So, even if theoretically we could choose something better in the moment and we don't, that's still okay. We may not be able to express why we made the choice in the moment. But we made that choice in the moment. And maybe these conversations after will help us better understand ourselves, better understand what was going on in that moment.It might help us recognize some other weight we were carrying or some other thing that was going on that we just couldn't take that extra 10 seconds to think of something else to do and we just needed to do this thing in the moment. So, we don't need to judge things as best. We don't need to figure out any scale or spectrum of what could be better, better, better, better. This is what happened in the moment, and oh my gosh, I can meet you there. And we can just have conversations.ANNA: And figure out the next steps, because we never know, and there's so many contextual pieces. I'll just say it over and over again. We cannot judge a relationship without taking into account these contextual pieces that changes peoples behaviors because of a myriad of reasons. We see it in ourselves, like you said. And so, just watching for those words, the shoulds or the judgment or the kind of standing back and then realizing like, hey, that's really disconnecting and I'm not getting the full story. And when we open up for those conversations, that's when we can learn. Do we have a systems problem here? Do we have a communications problem here? Do we just have a, we're all hungry problem here? Let's get some food and then we'll tackle this afterwards.It can be from the simple to the complex, but you're never going to get at what it is if you don't assume the positive intent, start having the space for the conversation, and then have that clear communication between one another.PAM: Yeah, exactly. And back to what you say, the person that I want to be in the world. And as far as I can reach for that in the moment, giving myself that same grace and compassion we want to give to the other person.ANNA: For sure. Okay, so, we're going to give some questions to reflect on this week.So, number one, think back to a time when someone gave you the benefit of the doubt and contrast that with a time when someone assumed the worst in you. How did you feel? How did you react? How did it impact your relationship with that person moving forward? Because we've all gotten both sides of this, and so, I think we can all think of some examples and just really sit with, "Hey, how did that feel and how would it have felt differently?"And number two, think of some recent exchanges where you or the other person was feeling defensive. Think about how assuming positive intent could have changed that. And so, for me, defensiveness is just that red flag either on their part, or if I'm recognizing it in someone else or seeing it in myself, it's like, okay, we can change that energy. We can change the way this conversation is going, because neither one of us need to feel defensive. We're here to understand.PAM: Defensiveness is such a great clue.ANNA: Yes. Such a great clue.PAM: It's pretty easy to feel once you're starting to look for it. So, that's what we're trying to encourage here, is just to start noticing these things even just that little bubble of oof, there it is. ANNA: Right. It's just that little, there it is. And even if you can't make that change in that moment, recognizing it to reflect on it later, then you can notice like, okay, I see what's getting me there. Now maybe I can think of some steps to not go to that place of defensiveness.Okay. So, this week, number three, notice the stories you're telling yourself about other people's actions. How often are you assuming positive intent? Do you find it hard to do? And why? Are you writing some stories? Are you assigning some more malicious intent? I think that will be really interesting to just see, because I think, like we talked about earlier, it comes pretty naturally. We're just running through and it happens. And so, just that awareness gives us that little pause, that little space. Okay. And four, think of a recent exchange with someone in which you felt defensive. Did you notice that the other person was defending in response? How long were the two of you stuck there? How might have assuming positive intent and holding space to learn more changed how that played out and how that tit-for-tat was going?And number five, are there particular people in your life to whom you don't typically give the benefit of the doubt? Try on assuming positive intent for the next bit and just see, does that shift things in what can be some difficult relationships or some areas that you get stuck? It's just something to play with and again, will give you more information about that relationship and about some ways that maybe you can tweak a few things.PAM: To me, that trying on things, seeing how they go, just doing it for a little while and seeing how things unfold, that is such a valuable approach for me. Rather than like, oh, I should be assuming positive intent. I'm going to do this all the time or I've failed. None of that helps me either as I'm learning this stuff and trying to figure it out and play with it. I need the experiences, the gathering of experiences for me to understand how it's working. Because when I see something, like you said, you have seen this over the years, we both have, play out in such a sense that it's something we've chosen to adopt because we found it as a helpful tool. So, we're sharing it as a helpful tool, not as a rule that you must do this now.ANNA: There are no edicts or "have to," it really is play with it and see if it shifts things, because it also may just open up to other ideas that shift things or other conversations with the people in your life where you're learning more about one another. And to me, that's the goal. Learning about ourselves, learning about one another, and just improving our relationships along the way.All right, so thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Take care.PAM: Bye!

learning navigating explore self awareness conflicts assuming assume positive intent foundation series anna yeah anna oh

EU026: Validation [Relationships]

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 17, 2023 20:39

We're back with another episode in our Relationships series and we're talking about validation. Validation might just be the most valuable tool in our relationship toolbox, yet it's not something that a lot of people have experience with—most people were not validated as children.It can take practice to develop the skill, but that work is worth it. Every person wants to feel seen and heard, which in turn paves the way for smoother interactions, less conflict, and more learning about the important people in our lives.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Find our courses, including Navigating Conflict, in our store at LivingJoyfullyShop.comYou can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!EPISODE QUESTIONS1. Do you feel the difference between sympathy and empathy? Think back to a challenging time you experienced and how others engaged with you. Did you feel a difference between sympathetic and empathetic responses?2. Over the next couple of weeks, practice seeing moments through the eyes of your partner or a good friend. Not just ones where they're upset, but also ones where they're excited or happy. Can you see why they are expressing that emotion in that moment? If you put yourself in their shoes, would you feel the same emotions?3. Do you find it hard to release your agenda around how someone else moves through their challenges and emotions? Try some different mantras or self-talk and see what helps you transition from seeing the path to your expected outcome to being curious about and supportive of their path to their outcome.4. What feels good and validating to you when you're experiencing a challenging situation? Let your partner or friend know and ask them to try that with you next time you're frustrated or upset about something.TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello, and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can sometimes be challenging because people are so different. Thanks for joining us as we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen from the beginning, particularly the episodes in our Foundations series. In them, we talk about our favorite fundamental relationship ideas and tools. If you hear us mentioning a concept over and over, chances are it has its own episode in the foundation series that you can check out to learn more.And before we get started, we just wanted to let you know that we recently released a course titled Navigating Conflict. It will help guide you through different aspects of conflict and give you some concrete tools to help you more gracefully navigate conflicts in all your relationships. Because conflict isn't a zero-sum game where one person wins and the other person loses in equal measure. Often we can find win-win paths through the situation. All of the course content is available in both text and audio formats, so you can dive into whichever works better for you. Maybe you're listening on some days and reading on others. You'll find the Navigating Conflict course in our store at livingjoyfullyshop.com. You'll also find the link in the show notes. Check it out and see if it's a good fit for you.As for today's episode, we're diving into the art of validation as part of our relationships series. Okay, so let's just take a moment to situate ourselves. In the sense that we're talking about it, dictionary.com defines validation as the act of affirming a person or their ideas, feelings, actions, et cetera, as acceptable and worthy. And I think that's a pretty good place for us to start.It's important to note that validation isn't about praising the person. Praise is a judgment that we're expressing. It makes the interaction about us and what we think, taking the focus away from the person we're wanting to validate. Affirmations are nonjudgmental observations that we're sharing. See the difference? How sharing an observation can help a person feel seen and how taking the time to notice and share can help them feel worthy of our attention and care?For me, validation is about being in an authentic relationship with another human being. That's it. It's not at all about control or coercion or subtle manipulation. There is no ulterior motive. The only goal is connecting and learning more about each other as human beings.ANNA: I'm so excited to be talking about validation, because I really believe it's the most valuable tool in the toolbox. I say it so often, but every person wants to feel seen and heard, period. And understanding that paves the way for smoother interactions, avoiding conflict, and like you mentioned, learning more and truly understanding the person in front of us, all of which leads to deeper connections with those we love and easier exchanges with those in our lives for any reason.And I feel like validation is not something that a lot of people have experience with. Most people were not validated as children. And it can take a bit of practice for it to be that first tool that you reach for, which I think is so often where it needs to be. Instead, a lot of times defensiveness is where we go first, and if we start there, things can derail. So, when we reach for validation, it allows that space for energy to calm, for the person to feel heard, for us to learn more about what actually is going on in the whole situation.PAM: Yeah, it's true. It can take a while to gain experience with moving through our reactive emotions to get to the space where we can actively listen to and validate the other person and to just get reasonably comfortable with how validation works, right?So, I think it will help us to take a moment and look at how sympathy, empathy, and validation weave together in our relationships, because those are pretty common terms that we hear, but it can sometimes be hard to tease them apart. So, I think this will help us get a better sense of what we are talking about when we say validation.So, sympathy acknowledges emotion in another person. We feel bad for them having to go through whatever challenge they're experiencing. We wish things were better for them.Now, empathy is about feeling WITH another person. Theresa Wiseman is a nursing scholar and she talks about four characteristics of empathy. Number one is seeing the world as the other person sees it through their eyes, not putting yourself in their shoes. Number two is being non-judgmental, recognizing that this is their truth. Three is understanding the other person's feelings. And four is communicating your understanding through words or actions. So, as you just think about those right off the top of your head, at this point, you can see this is our processing work to do. So, I just want to quickly step through them in a little bit more detail.So, the first step is seeing the world as the other person sees it. I think this piece can really trip us up, because it's not about putting ourselves in their shoes so that we can take stock of the situation as it looks to us, asking ourselves what would we do in similar circumstances. Rather, it's about looking at things through the other person's eyes, understanding what they are seeing in this moment, what their needs and challenges actually are. This includes the context of their life from how their day is going, to how their unique personality is woven in, to what they find challenging and easy and frustrating. And it can even be how they prefer to process things. We just want to get into their head and see things through their eyes, to be them as best we can. And I think that's the distinguishing difference.Now the second step is the non-judgmental piece, which is really about recognizing that the way they're seeing and feeling in this moment is their truth, full stop. Right now, this is the truth to them. It's not that the way we see the moment is wrong, it's that their perspective isn't wrong either. We are different people and this is their truth.The third step is understanding their feelings, which I think is pretty self-explanatory. Bringing together seeing through their eyes and recognizing that this is their truth, we are now more able to truly understand their feelings, how they got to this moment.And this brings us to step four, which is where validation happens. It's where we connect with them and communicate our understanding, so that as you say, they feel seen and heard.ANNA: Oh my gosh. I love those steps. And that first step of seeing how the other person sees it is so critical. And it's the hardest, I think, because we tend to think people see and experience the world in the same way that we do, and it takes a pause and some intention to instead view the situation through their eyes. We may not understand why someone is reacting the way that they are. Because maybe we don't see it as a big deal at all, but trusting that it absolutely is a big deal to them, and being there to hear and reflect that can quickly dissipate any kind of charge energy that you're experiencing. And then they don't need to get louder and louder to convince us. And we are open and we're listening.When we're validating, it can sometimes be helpful to offer words that dig down a bit deeper. For example, angry behavior is often an expression of another emotion. It could be frustration or hurt or loneliness. Digging into that can help the person move forward, and often we can uncover that underlying emotion. When we do that, it can remove any kind of block. And when you hit on the correct emotion, it really helps the person feel understood. And that alone can dissipate the anger. And then you're able to move towards some kind of resolution or even a conversation to understand more. That really isn't possible until the person feels heard.And so, this is often the place arguments start or ruptures begin. That attack, defend, get louder, withdraw, repeat, come back, and just we keep going, going, going. We can start with something simple instead, "I can hear how frustrated you are and I really do want to understand," there may be some more loud communication, but you'll start to see more about what's actually bothering them.And then you can affirm like, "That makes sense. That is frustrating. I understand." And, "That makes sense," is an honest communication in that moment, even if it wouldn't feel the same to you, because you can see that it makes sense to them.And this is not the time to be defensive. So, if it's coming at you directly, this is the time to lean in and try to understand. There will be time later to share your experience of the situation if that's appropriate. Creating space and letting the big emotions just wash over you, tuning in and recognizing the struggle of the person in front of you, can soften you and then you're in a position to genuinely say, "I want to understand," and start reflecting back what you're seeing.PAM: Oh, yes, yes, yes. It can be so helpful to note too that reflecting back what we're seeing doesn't always mean repeating what they're saying. Reflecting back the actual emotion they're feeling versus the one they may be expressing can not only help them feel understood, it can help them better understand themselves.So, another thing that's important when it comes to validation is not having an agenda. We can't, we really can't. Validation is all about supporting the other person while an agenda is about us. So, that means no agenda around their process for moving through their emotions and no agenda around how quickly they move through that process.if we're harboring an underlying agenda, while we might be saying words that we think are validating, like, I can see you're upset, our underlying energy, maybe even the cadence of our words, is more likely to be communicating something more judgmental and maybe condescending. Like, that's such a small thing. Just get over it already. You can do that with tone.So, for me, noticing that I have an agenda in mind, an end goal on the horizon is a clue that I need to dig a bit deeper. Even if I've done the work to understand the situation and circumstances, made the shift to empathy and seeing through their eyes, I'm still gazing to the future through my own eyes.Now again, that doesn't make me wrong, for me. Maybe I, as the unique butterfly I am, would have moved through it by now and beyond to something else. But again, this moment isn't about me, is it? Absolutely not. Sometimes I found it helpful to remind myself that I don't know how this will unfold for them, that I don't know how long it may take.Repeating this to myself a few times can just help me release my expectations, my agenda, and return to this moment with curiosity and love. I begin to wonder, hmm, how will this unfold? How might I help them feel loved and supported in this really hard moment for them?ANNA: Right, because agendas can be so sneaky, right? They're just right there and they definitely take us out of the moment that's in front of us, and pretty much every person, no matter the age or relationship to us, will pick up on it. And it just creates more disconnection and keeps us stuck in that place of them feeling like they need to express themselves dramatically and us trying to figure out what's going on.And like you said, it is so unique to each person and it's also so contextual. Something that typically would roll right past our partner can create a huge reaction when they are hungry or tired or overwhelmed with outside stressors. Even more reason to not make it about us and to offer empathy.Often, we don't know the context, but just reminding ourselves that there is one can bring our energy down and help us connect with the upset of the person in front of us.Being intentional about language can help so much, too. Using "I" statements and avoiding "you are" statements helps us have clear communication. We can only know for ourselves. With our closest relationships, we can work together to use "I" statements, and it just makes such a world of difference. You are attacking me versus I'm feeling attacked and I need a minute, holds a very different energy and can elicit a very different response than the other person.And I like to remind myself that no one can make us feel anything. Only we have control over our feelings and actions. So, something happens, we have a feeling about it, and we take an action. The thing we can't control is the thing that happened. Often that's out of our control. From there, we get to decide though how we feel, and we may run through some feelings. We may have all different kinds of feelings at first, but giving some space and observing and then acknowledging them and not getting stuck there puts us in a better position to take action that's in alignment with the person we want to be. So, it's not that having feelings is bad or that there's any particular bad feeling. We want to acknowledge all the feelings as they come up, but understanding that we don't have to get stuck on the first feeling that comes up can just be really empowering.And so, your partner could be coming at you with some angry energy about something you did or didn't do, and you may be feeling attacked or hurt or defensive, but you can acknowledge and breathe through those feelings and move to a place of validation.So, it might look like, okay, I understand why that's super frustrating. You thought I was going to get the car fixed today and I didn't get it done. And so, now we're in this pinch needing the car. Keep validating until they're able to move through their initial flush of emotions, and then you can both move to solving it together.What do we want to do now that we're in the pinch and the car isn't ready? Together, you can figure out the next steps. But if you start defending, oh, but this happened, but that, but this, but that. Then they're going to up the volume until they feel like they're heard and that we understand how frustrated they are. And you don't get to that stage of finding a solution together. Instead, now you have a rupture and, and not only do you have the initial problem, now you have this rupture to heal and solving the problem is so much harder when you're not on the same page like that.Because the thing is, we all make mistakes. We miss the mark sometimes, and that's okay. Validation is just a great first step in understanding one another and moving back to the place of connection. And sometimes the big expression will actually have nothing to do with you, and it's still a time for validation. And perhaps it's easier in those situations to just give them as much time or space and validation around their experience and emotion. Again, without that agenda that we're going to move through it quickly or at any kind of pace that are determining, but with a genuine desire to connect and understand what's happening for them.PAM: Yeah. For me, that's what I need to get myself back to and remind myself of that genuine desire to connect and understand.At the top of the episode, I spoke of validation as an art, and that's because I don't see it as a science, as a repeatable process. Of course, there are some principles involved that will consistently help us. That's what we've been talking about. Talking about seeing things through the other person's eyes, shifting from sympathy to empathy.But beyond that, whenever the opportunity to validate someone arises our choice of words and actions in the moment need to weave together with our understanding of the person involved and the circumstances of this particular situation and the moment. So, to me, it kind of feels like an art. And when it doesn't feel rote, doesn't feel like a script of things we're supposed to repeat every time, that also helps a person feel seen and heard in the moment. Because, that moment really is unique to them, right? It can be disconnecting if we say exactly the same thing, it's like, you're not seeing me. Right?ANNA: Because we're not present. We're not present in that moment when that's happening. And again, people pick up on those type of things, that agenda that you're not really hearing me and then there we have the divide that we have to figure out how to cross.PAM: Exactly. Exactly. So, here are some questions to ponder this week around the idea of validation. So, number one, do you feel the difference between sympathy and empathy? I use the word feel instead of think, because we want to focus in on our body. Embodying ourselves in the moment.Think back to a challenging time you experienced and how others engaged with you. Did you feel the difference between sympathetic and empathetic responses?Number two, over the next couple of weeks, practice seeing moments through the eyes of your partner or a good friend or your child, not just ones where they're upset, but also ones where they're excited or happy. Can you see why they are expressing that emotion in that moment? If you put yourself in their shoes, would you feel the same emotion? I'm just excited for people to play with those questions. Just because it really helps, I think, to separate and to understand how people are different.ANNA: Anytime we can get to more understanding about how different we are and how different we see and experience the world, it just opens up this space for understanding.PAM: It really does. It really does. Okay, number three, do you find it hard to release your agenda around how someone else moves through their challenges and emotions? Try some different mantras or self-talk and see what helps you transition from seeing the path to your expected outcome, to being curious about and supportive of their path to their outcome.And lastly, what feels good and validating to you when you're experiencing a challenging situation? How about letting your partner or friend know, and ask them to try that with you next time you're frustrated or upset about something and see how that feels? What difference does that make?ANNA: Yes, because again, we're all so different and what feels good and validating will be different for each of us. So, open up these conversations, play with it, talk to the people in your life, and I think it'll be really interesting.PAM: Oh, I think so. I'm very excited. Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye.ANNA: Bye.

relationships navigating praise reflecting foundations affirmations digging validation embodying repeating navigating conflict anna oh

LJ025: Behaviors [Parenting]

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 20, 2023 26:15

We're back with another episode in our Parenting series, in which we explore our relationships with our children. In today's episode, we're talking about behaviors. A lot of mainstream parenting advice focuses on children's behavior and the best ways to stop unwanted behaviors and increase desired ones. What that approach fails to acknowledge is that behaviors are always an expression of underlying needs. And without digging in to understand those needs, very often, the problem remains. By getting curious and figuring out our loved ones' true needs, we can solve problems together and strengthen our connection at the same time.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONS1. This week, notice your own behaviors and take a moment to contemplate the underlying need you're trying to address. Often we act or react the same way over and over without thinking because it's become a habit. Let's bring some intentionality back in by considering the need at play.2. Next week, with some more self-awareness under our belt, try narrating a choice or two a day, including the need you're taking care of, to your child/ren. Just a sentence or two, lightly, with no expectation of a response.3. Think of a behavior from your child/ren that is rubbing for you and list out some possible underlying needs they might be trying to satisfy. Use that lens the next time it happens and see what you learn. Did one of those possible needs make more sense?4. Thinking back over the last week or two, has something happened at home that impacted your child/ren's behavior? This can just help you bring awareness to context and not focus only on behaviors and their impact. TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Navigating relationships can be challenging, because we're all so different. On the Living Joyfully Podcast, we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflicts and increase connection in your most important relationships. We talk about concepts like self-awareness, compassion, context, consent, and so much more.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes.We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in your toolbox. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows. You can learn more about all that we're doing at LivingJoyfully.ca.Today's episode is part of the parenting series, and we're going to be looking at behaviors. Much of conventional parenting advice is centered around changing behaviors. That's usually attempted through punishments or rewards, which are really just two sides of the same coin of control. What's missing is an understanding of what the behaviors are telling us.Behaviors are at the surface. They are the clue to what's going on at a deeper level. When we focus our attention on that surface-level behavior, we're missing what's really happening for the child or person involved, and it's frustrating and usually fruitless practice to try to manipulate behavior without understanding the why behind it. This is especially true if you want to have a healthy, connected relationship with the person. It's true that we can change behavior through coercion and bribes, but often at the expense of our connection and our understanding of one another.PAM: Yeah, definitely behaviors stem from something. We have reasons for the things we do, as do the other adults in our life. And the same goals for children. They are people, too. Whether or not they can explain why they did something is different. Sometimes adults can't explain their reasoning either. But yes, the behaviors are clues to what's going on at a deeper level.ANNA: Right. It's important to understand that behaviors are outward expressions of needs. We do things in order to meet our needs. We make food when we're hungry. We may call a friend when we're upset. We may stomp through the house when we're mad to get some energy out. Those things we do are behaviors. When we understand that behind every behavior is a need, we start to see that the behaviors are a clue, just a piece of the puzzle.If we want to understand the person in front of us, we want to understand the need driving the behavior. If the behavior happens to be undesirable, for whatever reason, the most lasting way to get rid of it is to meet that need. And while we're focusing on parenting and children in this episode, it's really the same for every relationship.When we think of behavior as a clue, it changes the energy around difficult exchanges. We're bringing an open, curious mindset to the situation to solve the puzzle. What's driving this behavior that's causing problems? Problem behaviors can range from fighting with a sibling to not brushing their teeth.Turning first to HALT gives us a quick check-in about needs that often drive behaviors, and we've talked about it before, but just a quick reminder is to see if the person is hungry, angry, lonely, or tired. These are contextual things that impact behavior and meeting the need will stop that behavior quickly.The thing is, kids want to fit into a family system. It's biological, because it's needed for survival, but things can get in the way. Things that they may not be able to articulate, and that's what we want to help them discover. What's driving a particular behavior? Not only so we can eliminate the behavior that might be causing disconnection or even harm, but so that they can start to learn about how to recognize the need themselves and choose ways to get that need met that actually help them stay connected, which furthers the goal for them.And I would say HALT is probably at play with like 75% of issues. But there can be so many other things, too. A tough day at school, a mistake made earlier that they keep replaying, worrying about something in the future, stress in the family, worrying about things that are happening in the world.Needs can range from things like needing certainty, needing to feel safe, needing to feel connected, needing to process, needing to be alone, needing to be heard, and on and on.There isn't a formula, but the better you know one another, and as trust is built, the easier it will be to uncover the needs through inquiry and conversation, keeping in mind that these are not like long sit-down conversations, but gentle inquiry with the energy that you want to help and understand. Even just saying, "I'm here, I want to understand," can go a long way. Remembering there is always an underlying need, and that's where we find the solutions to address any behavior we're seeing.PAM: Yes. It is really helpful to remember that exploring behaviors to uncover needs is a process. It's often not solved in a one and done, long, drawn-out conversation. I love that phrase you used, gentle inquiry.So, maybe in one passing conversation we validate their frustration, how their action or reaction was their best choice in that moment. We love them. Maybe another time we share an observation like, it was the end of a long day and a few things had already gone sideways. Maybe next time we won't try to do another thing. And each time we can leave space for them to continue the conversation or to move on. And we can pay extra attention to any time they approach us, maybe wanting to talk about what happened. We want them to feel our support of their processing, whatever it looks like. And in the meantime, we can be doing our own processing as well.ANNA: Exactly. Whenever we're reacting to a behavior, it is a very good time to take a look at what's being triggered in us, because ultimately our reaction is our responsibility. Nobody is making us feel a certain way. We are responsible for how we feel. And that is a whole other episode that we'll get into because it's really an important nuance.But when we're seeing a disturbing behavior or behavior we don't understand, it's so helpful to look at the context. Our first inclination is to look at the person, what's wrong with them? Why are they being so difficult or mean? Why are they doing this thing? But so often, context is playing a role. How was their day? Did something happen at school? Is there something going on with friends? Are they worried about something that's coming up? Starting from a place of curiosity and assuming positive intent allows us to look beyond an offending behavior to see the person in front of us, a person who might be hurting or in need of help. And understanding the context helps us not to go to that place of condemning the person or the relationship, and it helps our children learn to understand and articulate how something is impacting them instead of just lashing out. They can start to give words to what they're feeling.And it's really helpful if we start using the language of context in our days. And I like to call it narrating. It's things like, it was such a long day today, I did not eat enough. And I can tell already I'm feeling snappy. I'm exhausted and I can tell I might lose my temper if I don't go to bed soon.Narrating what's going on for us does a couple of things. So, it helps those around us to know that our foul mood isn't about them, and it helps model for our children how to understand context and communicate about it and the impact of it with the people around them.Our job then becomes to listen when they communicate to us, when they tell us that they're too tired to do something or they've had a tough day, listen, and give them space or an extra cuddle or a listening ear. While we don't always understand why someone feels the way that they do, we want to trust in their knowledge and honor it. And again, it goes so far to helping build our connection and our understanding.PAM: Yes. Just to help them feel seen and heard in that moment. Because yeah, the underlying need is just more context that we can gain for that behavior in question.When we judge the behavior as bad, we send the message that we don't love them when they behave that way. So, they're feeling misunderstood. They're feeling unloved for who they are, and they're feeling alone, most likely. Because when we keep the conversation focused on the behavior, we miss the opportunity to help them process what happened, to maybe uncover the underlying need, or at least just get a little bit closer. It may take a while to find the route and then more time to find other ways to meet the need. Again, it's a process.And I definitely found sharing my own processing to be helpful, not in that big sit-down conversation way. But in sharing bits and pieces here and there, as in your great narrating examples. It definitely helps them see that my behaviors are about me, not about them, and also about how I process things. Not with the expectation that they process the same way. What it's communicating is that processing has value. It helps us understand ourselves and each other a bit better. It helps us move through the more challenging times, a bit more gracefully, with a little bit less damage to our connection. And that having hard times isn't just a kid thing. Adults have them, too. It's a human thing.ANNA: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. It's kind of strange, actually, how we seem to have this expectation that kids are going to always act with intention and make choices that we deem as right when so often, as adults we do not. So, it is an interesting kind of double standard to keep an eye out for.Sometimes the issue is a behavior that isn't happening. So, teeth not being brushed, homework not being done, plates not being brought back to the kitchen. When we're facing a behavior that isn't happening, it, it helps to ask what's making it hard. Again, bringing an open, curious mindset means we're open to hearing about their experience, and that helps us find solutions together. Because it's under the behavior or lack of that we gain a better understanding and find the solutions. Adjusting at that surface level really can only happen through rewards or punishment, and you not only impact the relationship, but you're much less likely to have a plan that sticks, because you haven't identified or addressed the needs or the barriers at all.And so, I remember reading this story from a popular psychologist who's a fan of gentle approach to parenting. And the question that was posed to her was, my child refuses to turn off the light, and I feel like it's a waste of energy and money, but nothing I'm saying is working. So, the advice of the psychologist was to remove the light bulb. And then she went on to explain that the solution worked because the child became scared and then learned her lesson.I think this is a really great example of where we can peel back and look at what it would look like to explore the underlying needs instead. So, if we don't get anywhere from asking a child specifically about a behavior or to stop doing it, I want to start looking more closely and watch for clues. It could be something where she simply forgets. If that's the case, well, we could work on figuring out a reminder together. Maybe a sign on the door would be enough. It could be that the light is hard to reach. She's leaving the room and books in her arms, and she can't reach the light. So, maybe rigging a string to the light or push button light might solve it.What's interesting in this case is that we were given the additional information that she was scared and that's why she quote "learned." So, knowing that she was scared, I would really want to explore that piece with her. Hey, do you feel safer with the light on? Is it that you don't like entering a dark room?I don't always love entering a dark room. A question along those lines can serve two purposes. It helps me get to the bottom of the behavior, but it also connects me with the child. She knows I'm interested in what her experience is, and then I can learn how she's seeing the world and what her perception of the situation is, and I can gain a better understanding of how our perceptions may differ.And at that point, we can look at, what about a nightlight that comes on automatically when the room gets dark or switch to LED-type lights that don't cost very much and meet my need for energy efficiency and meet her need for a light. And in the end, I might just say, you know what? Those few pennies a day to leave the light on, I'm okay with that for my child to feel safe.And I think what's key with any kind of conflict is to move beyond the surface. With this example, we have one person who wants the light on, one person who wants the light off. Those seem like diametrically-opposed views, but if we peel back and say, okay, but what's happening underneath of that? Then we can find solutions that feel good to both parties and that actually meet both of their needs, even though that solution was not the solution that worked, the turn it off or leave it on.And that's what I love about looking beyond the behavior to the underlying needs, because I think so often, we feel like we're faced with these situations that seem completely unsolvable. How are we ever going to bridge this gap? But when we start looking at the needs that are driving the behaviors, we can usually find, oh yeah, what about this? What about that? Oh yeah, that would work. It opens up this creativity piece that just is a game changer.PAM: Yes, because it's that creative piece that I love so much now. When we have two or more needs that are at first pointing in different directions, what are other possibilities? And I just love your light example. What if I don't want to scare my child into doing what I want them to do?And, as you were talking about that, it reminded me of the general parenting conversations around the idea of natural consequences. Sometimes parents seem to be setting up their kids for what they call natural consequences, almost wanting things to go wrong.It just feels like another guise for punishment to teach them a lesson. But there really are so many other possibilities. And we don't need to first find the right answer and then implement it. Each time we try something, we learn a little bit more through the experience. So, how did it go? Did it work for you? Did it work for me? What felt a bit off? Knowing what we know now, how might we tweak it?So, maybe at first it's like, oh yeah, I just forget to turn off the light. So, we put up the sign and it's still happening. Oh. So, maybe it's not just forgetfulness. And then we can dig a little bit deeper and a little bit deeper, and we try different things. And then eventually we really do get to that fear piece because subconsciously not wanting to turn it off doesn't bring to mind to remember to do it right. So, you can absolutely see how, at first we can think it's just a forgetfulness thing. But really once we get underneath and find what that root need is, it's a whole different set of possible solutions that can come up for us. Again, it is a process. I think that's a really big takeaway.ANNA: It really is. It's a process and one that I would say is so much more enjoyable than this kind of bickering and power play business. Because again, there's just such a different energy about, hey, let's try this, or, this isn't feeling good to me, so let's try these things. And yeah, okay, that worked, but that part didn't. It becomes this exchange we're having with the person in our life to get to a place where we both feel good.And I mean, that's just such a different energy than this punishment and reward and anger and bickering. And so, I would much rather spend my time working with my child than arguing. And that goes really for anybody. That's the happy, connecting work and it's just the energy that I want to cultivate in my home and in my life and with the people in my life.PAM: I know! Because the people in my family, they're the ones I want to feel like we're a team together trying to figure things out, not at odds with each other. It doesn't mean, again, that we don't argue, that behaviors and things don't happen that feel disconnecting or are hard for us. Yet, we can still bring that energy of figuring it out together. It doesn't need to come to a head as a conflict where one needs to be right and one needs to be wrong. Or, as a parent, I need to have power over my child and tell them to do my answer, because I think it's right and it's right because it would be the right answer for me. And our kids are different. And our kids are people. And what the underlying need for them that they are trying to meet is important and is valuable.And when we come at it with that energy of being a team and figuring it out together, oh my gosh. It changes the energy of the home. It increases connection, cultivates that connection that we want to have with them. And they learn so much more about themselves. And that's something that will last them their whole lifetime. ANNA: Yeah. It's really true. And it is so important to remember that what solution makes sense to us may not make sense to our child or to our spouse, or to our friend. We're all different. We're going to keep saying it. And it's not that our idea's wrong. It's the right answer for us and it's okay to present it and let's have it as a conversation piece, but always remembering that it may or may not resonate with the person in front of us. And if I want to learn and be connected to this person, I want to give space to understand where they're coming from. So important to remember that.Okay, so here are some quick questions and ideas to think about this week. So, this week, notice your own behaviors and take a moment to contemplate the underlying need that you're trying to address. Often we act or react in the same way over and over again without thinking about it because it's kind of become a habit. So, just bringing some intentionality back to considering the need at play, I think, can just be a really helpful process, because like, hey, what am I trying to meet with this need of this behavior that maybe even a behavior that I do all the time? So, I think that could bring that intentionality.PAM: Yeah. I do think it's a lot easier to start with us, because we're making the choices, we're doing our things and we're behaving in the ways that are working for us. But I do find it so interesting to start with things that maybe have become a habit for us. Because they were a habit back when, when that was maybe the best way for us to meet that need, but to take a little bit of time to remember, because once we have the habit and the action, we do that without thinking pretty much. That's kind of the definition of a habit. So, when we can take a moment to think, so why am I doing it that way? And going back to the underlying need, we may find that there is a new way or a different way to address it that makes more sense for us now. So, even if we don't extend it anywhere else, it can be helpful.ANNA: And it's going to help you communicate about it, too. So, if someone doesn't understand that behavior and you figure out what the need is, that's much easier to communicate to someone else than a behavior maybe they don't understand.Okay. So, number two, next week with some more self-awareness under our belt, try narrating a choice or two a day, including the need that you're taking care of, to your children. Give a sentence or two lightly, no expectation of a response from them. None of that, but just start to narrate a little bit more about your day and why you're feeling a certain way or why you're doing something and just see how that feels and how it lands and how that can definitely smooth things. It just helps people understand where we're coming from or what's going on for us.PAM: It made such a big difference for me, because I just always imagined people were reading my mind or everybody felt the same way. So, there's this reason why I'm doing this thing, why would anybody else wonder about it?ANNA: That's a big thing. I think we get told like, well, nobody can read your mind, but we really do think that people think the same way that we do. And so, of course they would make the same exact decision. No, they will not. Oh my goodness.Okay, so three, think of a behavior from your children that is rubbing for you. List out some possible underlying needs that they might be trying to satisfy with these behaviors. Use that lens the next time it happens and see what you learn. See how that fits. Did one of those possible needs make more sense? Did it help you understand why the behavior was happening? And so, I think that will be very interesting.And lastly, number four, thinking back over the last week or two, has something happened at home that impacted your child's behavior? This can help you bring awareness to the context, to not focus only on the behaviors and their impact. And so, with this question, what we're asking again is just, yeah, let's look at that broader context. And how could it have impacted the behavior of the child in front of you? And see how that feels to think about those pieces.PAM: Yeah, I mean, for me, once I would think bigger picture context for just regular every day behaviors of things going wrong. I really found that often I had more compassion or more empathy for the other person, child or adult, when I realized that we've been really busy these last couple of weeks. I've been having to wake them up in the morning to go do the things or to get ready for school or whatever it is. And maybe we discover it through HALT, if we're looking at it that way. Or maybe we're just looking at the bigger picture in general. But it's amazing how much that context influences behavior.ANNA: I think if anytime we feel that little tweak of a behavior that happens, can we just do a quick like, oh yeah, they had a lot of tests at school this week, or they had that big tournament over the weekend, or they didn't sleep well last night. Or they're worried about their grandmother or their whatever. Just that quick moment to think, you know what? There are some things that could be impacting why they're a little snippier, why I'm a little snippier, why we're all feeling that way.And again, then we can narrate and bring those things out into the open and we can say for ourselves, I didn't get a lot of sleep last night and I'm feeling really tired. Or I was worried about your grandmother, because I know she was having this whatever. And we can start having those conversations, which then just opens us up for that compassion for one another, for that greater understanding.PAM: And from there, just as we finish up, let's plant that seed of capacity, just as you were talking about it right there. Our children have capacity. And when all their things are going on around them or other stresses, they have less and less capacity. That was a big a-ha moment for me with my kids, too, and their behaviors was that something sets them off which would not have set them off yesterday or a week ago or a month ago. And all of a sudden I'm like, what the heck? Why is that bothering them? Why is that setting them off? But recognizing that there were a number of other things that went wrong during the day up to that point. And that they had basically just lost their capacity to absorb something else going sideways this day or this week. So, capacity applies to children just as much as it does adults.ANNA: It does! And how that energy and how bringing that compassion, how that person feels heard, how that child feels loved and understood and how it keeps us moving towards having a calmer home, a more comfortable environment. And anyway, okay, I'm going to stop. But there's so many things here. Obviously, we keep talking about it. So, thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Take care.

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LJ024: Self-Awareness: No Set Outcome [Conflicts]

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 22, 2023 21:25

We're back with another episode in our Conflicts series and we're talking about a helpful mantra, No Set Outcome. When we find ourselves in conflict with someone in our lives, it can be natural to enter the conversation with our solution and our needs top of mind. From there, we try to convince them and win. But when we come into conversation with that agenda, we can get caught in a back and forth conflict. Instead, what if we release our agenda before we start talking? What if we stay open and curious, with no set outcome in mind. From there, we can figure out a path forward that works for everyone and considers everyone's needs. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. What comes up for you when you contemplate the idea of going into a conflict-related conversation with no set outcome?2. Does it make sense to you that the bigger picture context of the conflict can contain helpful information for finding a path forward that works for everyone? Why? Why not?3. What blocks or fears do you find rising up?4. This isn't a “now you have to do this forever” kind of thing. The next few times conflict arises, no matter how small, can you try going in with trust and curiosity instead of an agenda? Just play with it and see what happens. But not halfheartedly, you won't learn much that way.TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! Navigating relationships can be challenging, because people are so different. In this podcast, we dive into tools, strategies, and paradigm shifts to help you decrease conflict and increase connection in your most important relationships. We talk about concepts like self-awareness, compassion, context, consent, all the big Cs, and so many more.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to listen to our foundation series, which is specifically the first 14 episodes until we think of some more. But in them, we talk about our favorite fundamental relationship ideas and tools. If you hear us mentioning a concept over and over, chances are it has its own episode in the foundation series that you can check out to learn more.So, this episode is part of our Conflict series and our miniseries inside that about developing self-awareness. Today, we're diving into the idea of No Set Outcomes, and this can be confronting it first. I mean, what do you mean go into a conflict-infused conversation without an answer or a solution in mind? What, why? This can be particularly challenging for internal processors, like me, because we often like to do our own thinking ahead of time before we have conversations about ways to move forward.Yet the challenge is that when we have a solution in mind, we often come to the conversation with an agenda and a different energy. We may not even recognize it at first, but once we bring this self-awareness lens to things, we can start to see it.Interestingly, it's often easier to recognize it when we're on the receiving end. So, do you recall a time when a partner or a friend came into a conversation with an agenda in mind? Just think about that for a moment. Often you can sense it in their body language, in their tone of voice, and in the words they choose, which are often a bit more presumptuous and maybe belittling is how they can feel. They tend to try to dominate the conversation, trying to convince us that their perspective and solution is the right one. When that happens, we can feel like our perspective isn't being heard or respected, like we're being bullied into accepting their solution. We can worry that they'll think less of us if we don't agree, and it just doesn't feel good.So, now let's take a moment to flip that. How does the other person feel when we are quite sure that we have the right solution? When we come to the conversation with our agenda, thinking, my goodness, if only we could explain it the right way, they, too, could see that we're right. When someone comes into a conversation with that agenda, we just can quickly get stuck, caught in that back and forth of trying to convince each other that our solution is the right one. Conflict, one person is right and the other is wrong, which means that in the end there's a winner and a loser, and none of that helps maintain a connected and supportive relationship.Instead, what if we release our agenda before we start talking? What if we come into the conversation with the energy of being on the same team and trying to figure out a path forward that works for everyone, something that considers both our needs and goals and theirs.ANNA: Oh my gosh. It's such an important shift. And it isn't always easy. In the Be Kind, Not Right episode, I talked about making the shift from needing to prove that we're right to choosing kindness, which helps us to get to that place of curiosity and openness. We don't have to let go of the idea that we're right or that we think we have a good solution. But we can choose to be kind and give some space and hear the person in front of us. And finding whatever tools we can that will help us release the urgency of our agenda, I think, is key.Another one that we've talked about is that there's plenty of time and there's this feeling in our body when we're bringing a sense of urgency to a conversation. When we feel that we must convince them that we're right and that this thing needs to change right now in this particular way.It's such a different energy when we can switch to curiosity and trust in our ability to solve problems, because whatever is happening, it isn't feeling good for one or both of us, but there's so many possible solutions. We don't want to get fixated on ours. We want to remain open to finding one that feels good for both of us, and that is truly fostered by slowing things down, being more open, and leaving space for that. And it's such a different energy and it feels so much better to move towards a solution that way.PAM: Exactly. Exactly. And notice that not bringing an agenda into the conversation doesn't mean not thinking about the possibilities beforehand. We want to get curious. It can be really helpful to spend some time considering our needs and goals as they relate to the conflict at hand before getting into deep conversations. That's part of the self-awareness that we're talking about in this miniseries of episodes. Not only will we learn more about ourselves, we'll likely be able to more effectively communicate that information to the other person involved.So, we can also get curious about the bigger picture context of the conflict, too. So, from the environment, has a similar conflict happened before? Is there a pattern to it? Does there seem to be a consistent trigger and so on. To the needs and goals of everyone that's involved, are there conflicting underlying needs that need to be resolved? To the current circumstances of each person that's involved right now, and this can call back to our previous self-awareness episodes around triggers and HALT.So, the more we explore, the more little bits of information we have floating around in our minds that we can connect in creative and fun ways to navigate through the conflict or the challenge that work for everyone involved.But to be able to recognize these many other possibilities, I do first need to let go of any outcome I have in mind when I go into the conversation. It's great to have all these possibilities. But if I don't let go of what seems to be the best one to me, I end up just picking out the pieces of our conversations that fit that particular path and just ignoring the rest, letting them go in one ear and out the other, because I'm going to use what they say as ammunition to show them or convince them why the path that I have in mind is best. But when I can release that agenda, that set outcome, and not bring that with me into the conversation, just having thought through things from my own perspective of possibilities and my needs, that just brings so much more when we can work together as a team, because there really is no one right way through a conflict. ANNA: Right. And so, I want to reiterate the point that you just said, because it's so important, which is that if we're going into a conflict or conversation with a set outcome, it really tunnels our vision. We are looking for anything to affirm our position to the exclusion of all other positions. And we're missing solutions or paths that could move us smoothly through the disagreement.And because I often like to think of things in terms of efficiency, while it seems like barreling towards my solution is the fastest way, it isn't. Because it most likely will cause defensiveness. It can create difficult and sometimes painful back and forth. I leave the person not feeling heard or understood, which we've talked about how damaging that is for connection. The easiest, most pleasant, and most efficient way is to be open to all of the possibilities. It does take a little bit more time, but it's so worth it.And I think the self-awareness piece is so critical, because as we tune in to what our actual need is, we can then begin to communicate it to our partner or friend in a non-threatening way. We aren't communicating the solution, we're communicating the need. And no one can really argue with our need. The need is something we can solve for. Just presenting our solution doesn't leave space for the other person to have their own needs or to really have any kind of feedback. But when we're focused on addressing needs, we can take everyone's needs into account and find a solution. It feels much less threatening and all sides can have their say to get their needs met.PAM: Absolutely. Yes. Communicating needs, not solutions. It's just one level underneath. And as you mentioned, taking the time to gain some self-awareness around the conflict often helps us more effectively communicate those needs. We may also discover some blocks that we'll need to explore. What's getting in our way? What are we holding onto so tightly that we feel stuck, that this is the only way? That this is the one right way? It's curious, because we can get there. We can get there. Like, I would not be happy with any other answer. Like, it's okay to feel that way. We feel that way. But it is also a great clue that, oh, I think there are some blocks there. There's something there that we want to play with.But I think what's really helpful, too, is not assuming that exploring those blocks is all about getting rid of them. Because then we can resist that, as well. Maybe we discover an underlying need, and rather than tossing that block, now we're better able to just describe the need. Now, we understand better why we're feeling so resistant, which then can open up the door to more possibilities for meeting it. When we're feeling stuck with the block, it can be because we can only see that one way forward. But when we understand that underlying need, things can definitely feel less constrictive.So, for example, maybe we find that fear is blocking us. That can definitely be helpful to dig into. So, is it a fear of being wrong? Is it of being judged by others? Is it worry that there will be negative consequences from different paths forward? Is it fear of losing face or losing power in the relationship?Where does that fear stem from and is it true? Does it make sense? And depending on how we prefer to process things, maybe these blocks are something we explore on our own and share what we discover. Or maybe they're part of the conversations we have with a trusted person. Even if that's the person we're navigating the conflict with, it can be helpful for them to see what it's bringing up for us.ANNA: Right. And I think as we dig into that and because that's a vulnerable place sometimes to share, this is feeling scary to me or this is what it's feeling like, but you can almost feel how it softens things. Because if I'm kind of coming at someone with like, I don't like this, this needs to change, blah, blah, blah, that can put somebody on the defensive.But it's like, as soon as I'm able to say, okay, I've got a lot of intensity about this because this is feeling scary to me, it's like, whew, we can soften and they can go like, okay, I don't want you to feel afraid of this or worried about this. And so yeah, let's figure out something that feels better.And I do agree also that this whole process is going to be influenced by how each of us process things. And so, there's room for all types of processing, back to remembering not to take another person's suchness personally. So, if someone needs to step away and internally process what's happening, give space for that. That's not that they're disengaging from you or that that should be a problem. It's like, hey, they need that time to come back and maybe to just calm down and figure out what those underlying needs are. And I think it can be the same if the person's like, I just really want to hash this out. Know that that's what they need and we don't have to take that personally. They're just needing that intensity and that back and forth.And it really helps in all of our relationships to be able to communicate about our needs. So, if you need to take that time to understand and to step back from the triggers, take that time. Ask for it. And if your friend or partner asks you for it, kindly give it to them, because we want to come to these conversations with our best information, not from a reactive place. So, we need to trust in each other when we ask for those things.Learning about how you process is so important. If you like to hash things out, make sure that feels okay to the other person involved. Make sure that they've had the time they need to come ready to be open and curious, to have that type of discussion. The more narration, the more information we can give each other just really changes the tone of these conflict situations.And you can see so much of this is helped by slowing things down. I'll talk about this a lot because you can feel, I get a lot of excited energy going on. Slow it down and drop that sense of urgency. Yes, we're having an issue. We aren't in agreement. And that can send us into this urgent feeling mode. But in slowing things down, we allow space to gain that deeper understanding of each other, of our needs, and we can start to see that there are options for how to move through this that feel so much better.And, for me, it's that grounding in the trust that we can work it out, that we're going to take the time to understand. We're going to communicate. And it relaxes everyone involved, because I think again, those fear can pieces can come into play. Like, we're having a conflict. Is this going to end the relationship? What's going to happen? But if we can just ground back into that trust, we can slow this down, we can have a hard conversation, and we can find solutions that feel better.PAM: Yeah, I mean, just imagine that energy. It is so easy when a conflict comes up, as you said, to feel that sense of urgency. Oh my gosh, something's wrong. We need to fix it. And that just brings a whole other layer of tunnel vision. How can you be open and curious and be able to listen intently to other people's needs and, especially if something comes up more quickly, like, oh my gosh, you need a bit of time to just process and see what my needs are underneath that. Or we can slap a Band-Aid on it, but it's going to come up again and it's going to come up again and again because we haven't gotten to those underlying needs. I mean, that has been my experience and it's just been so helpful to give it that time and space.So often, conflicts, they're not urgent. They're not emergencies. Even though we can feel that. We can reach to our tools just to help us calm down and just even help each other feel seen and heard, like, oh my gosh, yes. We have different views about this thing. Let's figure that out. And then understanding how the other person processes things. People are different. It is so very helpful just to have that context for navigating conflicts.So, going into those conversations without that set outcome in mind, not having that agenda, that trust that you mentioned, that genuine trust that together we can find a way through that works for both of us. And as we gain more experience with it, it really is a beautiful process. We come to see that conflicts aren't bad. They're not negative. They're like human beings that see things differently. Now, of course, it doesn't mean that that's easy, right? But understanding that will serve everyone just in so many countless situations over the course of our lives. When we take the experience and the understanding of ways that we can open ourselves up, not come with that agenda, in so many other relationships in our lives, it helps us move through those as well.ANNA: And just learn. It's just about the learning. If we can, when those opportunities come, instead of feeling that fear or worry about the relationship, be like, okay, we're going to learn something about each other right now because we're seeing this very differently. And that's, of course, back to open and curious, but it's such a wonderful shift and letting go of those outcomes is such a big piece of that.PAM: Such a big piece.Okay, so here are some questions to ponder this week around this idea. Number one, what comes up for you when you contemplate the idea of going into a conflict-related conversation with no set outcome? I mean, I think that's a big one right there to start with.ANNA: Think about that. Right.PAM: Number two, does it make sense to you that the bigger picture context of the conflict can contain helpful information for finding a path forward that works for everyone? So, what is your first answer to that and why or why not do you think the context is involved?Number three, what blocks or fears do you find rising up when you start thinking about this idea?And last, this isn't a, "now you have to do this forever" kind of thing. So, the next few times conflict arises, no matter how small, these ideas work. Can you try going in just with trust and curiosity instead of an agenda? Maybe it helps to just start small. Just play with it and see what happens.But I would suggest not doing it half-heartedly, because you won't learn much that way. You're hedging your bets. It's like, ah, I'm going to play with this. I'm going to try. I'm going to not come in with an agenda. If I'm somebody who likes to process things first, I'm going to process things first.I'm going to have all sorts of ideas, but then I am not going to go in attached to any of them. Those are just going to be things I can pull out as I learn more in conversation with the other person. ANNA: It's just so fun to play with the ideas, because again, I think that's where the learning is. We learn like, okay, yeah, I do this. I see that I do this. Because a lot of times we don't even realize we're doing that, because we're just thinking in our head, how do we get through this? And so, it makes sense. But yeah, just playing with this, observing a little bit, stepping back and seeing like, okay, I see how these patterns happen in the conflicts that we have. And it would be interesting to try to change that to see how that feels to all of us. So, yeah, I think it's a lot of fun to play around.PAM: Yeah. Yeah. And back to your idea of being efficient, right? I think that can be something that we play with. Or we're just uncomfortable leaving that space for this conflict to just sit for a while or even just disagreement or even just seeing things in different ways. Just allowing that to sit and we start to get a little bit more comfortable knowing that we're all learning more as we move more slowly through the process. Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye.ANNA: Take care.

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LJ021: Self-Awareness: Triggers [Conflicts]

Play Episode Listen Later May 4, 2023 27:38

We're back with another episode in our Conflicts series and we're talking about triggers. A trigger is an intense, emotional, negative reaction to something, whether it's words or actions. Triggers often stem from previous trauma or childhood experiences. Getting a handle on our triggers, recognizing them, and learning to set them aside is an important first step to avoiding and minimizing conflict with our loved ones.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. Are you aware of your triggers? If not, look for times when you find yourself activated out of proportion with the situation. Knowing our triggers helps us be more intentional with our actions. 2. Can you think of a time when acting from a trigger impacted a conversation? What would it look like if you had a do over? 3. Have you noticed triggers in your partner? 4. What tools do you want to put in place with your partner to help each other navigate when one of you is feeling triggered?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas that are so helpful to have in your toolbox. If you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you would subscribe and share. We really appreciate your support as it grows.This week's episode is part of our Conflicts series, and we're going to be talking about triggers. It's so helpful to understand ourselves and our triggers and hot buttons, noticing what comes up for us when conflict arises. Understanding how, in general, we deal with and feel about conflicts can help us be more intentional with our words and actions.So, for some context, a trigger is an intense, emotional negative reaction to something, whether it's words or actions. The clue that our reaction is in response to a trigger is that it's often out of step with the actual situation in front of us, and it will also bring about some intense feelings in our body. That's because triggers are actually about us, not at all about the situation in front of us. They often stem from previous trauma or childhood experiences, and they bring this confronting aspect and energy to the conflict for us that nobody else sees or feels.PAM: Yes. I think that's one of the most interesting aspects for me, that the intense reaction I'm feeling isn't being reflected in the other people. Like, why aren't they more upset about this? Why can't they see what's wrong with this situation? I'd get more upset, because it seemed like they didn't care and I'd feel almost compelled to open their eyes to what was going on. So, eventually I began using that mismatch as a clue that my reaction might have more to do with me than the actual situation at that moment. But it can be hard not to get immediately carried away by that rush of emotions. Right?ANNA: Exactly. Getting a handle on our triggers, recognizing them, and learning to set them aside is an important first step to avoiding and minimizing conflict with our loved ones. And to be clear, setting aside triggers doesn't mean ignoring them. Rather, it means taking the time to explore and process them outside of the conflict, to make sure we're truly reacting to the person and the situation in front of us.And the first step to that is to slow down. Give yourself some space to bring your awareness to the moment in front of you and see if others are maybe not reacting as strongly as you are, or if your reaction seems to not fit the situation. If you notice that, you can take a pause and take steps to calm your nervous system.So, somatic approaches are used to engage the relationship between mind, body, brain, and behavior. There are some great somatic tools out there that can help calm our nervous system, allowing us to act with intention again, a simple one being cold water on your wrist. So, excusing yourself to the bathroom for some quick cold water therapy can bring you back into the moment so that you can more intentionally face the situation in front of you. You can dig into whatever that trigger was bringing up later. Right now, you want to be present in the situation with your partner or child and not be confusing the situation with baggage from your past.And so, I want to talk about the 90-Second Rule, which helps us understand some of the physiology that's happening when we have any kind of reaction. So, the concept was introduced by Jill Bolte Taylor in her book, My Stroke of Insight. In it, she describes how whenever our brain circuitry is triggered, could be fear, joy, laughter, anger, the associated chemicals are released and it takes 90 seconds for them to flush out of the body. So, at that point, we have a choice. We can choose to rethink the thought that brought about that physiological response, thus triggering it again, which means we need to actively choose to stay in that place, a place that's now in the past. To keep those feelings of fear, anger, or even laughter going, we have to keep buying back into that thought every 90 seconds.And as you gain experience tuning into this process in your body, you'll start to notice the pause and recognize when you buy back into the thought. It's important to note though, that during the 90 seconds, you will most likely not be able to make a different choice. So, for example, once you've triggered an anger response, you need to let those chemicals course through you for the 90 seconds.Then you'll have a chance to bring yourself to the present moment and make a different choice.And while you may not be able to choose to feel differently during the 90 seconds, you can stop yourself from reacting from that anger, especially when you know that intensity of that moment will pass. It's so empowering to realize we have that control, that our anger doesn't control us, that we have choices along the way to react differently.And I actually had a really interesting example of this just two weeks ago. So, I was in a hotel room and the fire alarm went off. So, it's like wake the dead fire alarm in a hotel. I was in a deep, deep sleep. My whole body, like I sit bolt upright, I'm super activated, my heart's pounding. I'm like, what's happening? There were fire trucks, the whole nine yards, but about 20 seconds in, I realized that the alarm still wasn't going off. The fire trucks had passed by. There wasn't really a threat, but my body was still on high alert. Heart banging, all the things. I tried deep breathing. I tried any tool I can think of, but it was only until about the 90 seconds passed, I felt my body calm down and I took a deep breath and I was able to go right back to sleep.It was such a stark contrast and I think it was easier to notice in this situation, because I wasn't feeling the need to pull myself back into that state of alarm, because I knew that it wasn't that. I didn't need to buy back into it. I think it's harder when you're still mad at that person or that situation in front of you, but it's there. It happens. That pause is there and so, watch for it and it's pretty cool and kind of wild.PAM: Yeah. Yeah, that is such a great example. Yeah. I think it's just so helpful to play with some tools, to see which ones can help us to just calm our nervous system down a little bit in the stress of the moment.I mean, for me, a big one is deep breathing. So, a few deep breaths and not just like a deep breath, but concentrating on a slow out breath and envisioning the tension that I'm feeling washing out with my breath. Right? So, as you mentioned, often I'll excuse myself to go to the bathroom for a minute or two to do that. As you said, we may not be able to make a different choice in those 90 seconds, but we can try not to react. We can try to give ourselves space to let anger, fear, whatever it is, course through us for that period of time.And to highlight what you said, because I don't think it can be said enough, it's about releasing the intensity of the emotions that are brought out by the trigger so that we can focus on the situation or conversation at hand and later doing some work to dig deeper and learn more about the trigger and where it comes from. Because if we ignore the trigger, figuratively stuffing it down, rather than setting it aside to be explored later, chances are it's going to keep triggering just as forcefully each time similar circumstances arise. If we get pretty good at stuffing it down and moving on, we can start to feel like a martyr, which often ends up disconnecting us even more from family and friends and our loving relationships. And if we find it harder and harder to do that over time, we're kind of on our way to burnout if we're not going to process some of this stuff, right?ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. Our triggers are pointing out areas that might need some healing or at the very least, some acknowledgement and attention. So, it isn't about ignoring them, it's just about choosing our reaction in the moment that best aligns with the person we want to be.I think it might be helpful for us to just take a minute to walk through some common triggers, remembering that they are going to be super specific to each person, because it's all about our past and the things that happened and how we process that. But it can give you an idea of the things to watch for and a big piece of that is also going to be that body feeling, so, watching for that.But one of them is getting in trouble. So, this is a trigger that many share from our time in school. Sometimes it can be from our family of origin reinforcing that as well. So, if you're in a situation where maybe someone's questioning you or maybe you realize that you made a mistake, you can have this all-over body reaction and it can cloud your judgment about the next steps that you take.But you can keep in mind that, at that point, you're reaching from a place that potentially is decades past, where as a child you had very little control. In the situation in front of you, most likely, mistakes are viewed very differently and are not caused for such intense reactions. So, calming your nervous system so that you can clearly talk about what happened and ask some clarifying questions is going to serve you and the relationship much more than this oversized reaction that really won't make any sense to the person in front of you.PAM: Yes, exactly. It won't make sense, as we talked about earlier. That can be very helpful too. A trigger that I've explored pretty often over the years is the fear of things going wrong. I thought I was being helpful in pointing out all the challenges that I envisioned that could come up with whatever the other person wanted to do or suggested. It's where my brain quickly went and eventually, I rationalized it as a skill. Let me tell you all the ways this can go wrong, so that you can come up with plans B, C, and D, or just realize right now it's too risky and move on to something else. See how much time I saved you?But when I realized that my help actually created more conflict, I got curious and dug deeper. I found fear consistently being triggered underneath my professed help. I noticed that the fear was generating a kind of tunnel vision for me, in which pretty much all I could see were the things that could go wrong. And when I shared those things, others didn't take them as me being helpful, but as me not trusting them to make reasonable choices or to navigate things if they took a new turn.I came to see that when I let fear trigger my reactions, when I tried to instill my fear into my partner or my children, even under the guise of being helpful, I was hijacking their experiences and learning. So, no wonder it often led to conflict.So, I've gotten much better at instead looking at all the fun and interesting things that could come from the thing they're wanting to. At seeing their choices through their eyes, like we talked about way back in episode four, or even just getting curious and asking them what they're excited about.I also got better at asking if they wanted to hear any feedback about challenges I thought might pop up. So again, it's not about stuffing that down, it's not about never thinking about it. It's like, okay, I'm going to set that aside for a bit and I'm going to look at this first, look at all the cool things and why they're very excited about this.So, what was really interesting to me was asking them if they wanted to hear that feedback and the conversations that came up around that were very eye-opening. I learned that, so often, they had already thought about that same challenge and had a plan in mind in case it happened. And what was super fascinating to me was that their thinking about that wasn't driven by fear. It was just part of thinking about how things might unfold. They were just more clues to me that fear didn't need to be part of the picture, part of the conversation.ANNA: And fear is such a big one for so many of us. And it is interesting, I think, to tune into any kind of habituated responses like that, especially if we notice they're causing ruptures or disconnections in our relationship, because I feel like, just like you found, just scratching beneath that surface will reveal some kind of trigger, some kind of fear, some kind of something that keeps bubbling up that we've kind of put a habit around that really isn't about the moment and just keeping us from looking at it.So, one of my triggers is around control. So, I don't like to be controlled, and if I get a whiff of someone trying to control me, I'm going to start bucking. The challenge for me is that my reaction is usually not in proportion to what is actually. So, I do my best to notice it rising in my body. For me, it's a very physical experience and I like to name it just for myself. So. I'm like, okay, you're starting to feel controlled. Let's take a closer look and see what's actually happening here.And so often, I mean, honestly, I'd say like 99% of the time, it's all about that other person, and they really aren't intending to control me or really even thinking all that much about me at all. And perhaps it's they're not feeling heard about something or supported about something. So, if I spend that time to really listen and understand where they're coming from, then we can find a path through whatever the issue is.But if I start bucking against this perceived control, then the conversation invariably goes sideways. And it's just so often, again, it's just this defensive reaction in me doesn't leave space for any learning about what's actually happening for that person in front of me.PAM: Exactly. Because so often, we can quickly shift the conversation to be about the trigger instead of what's going on in front of us. Like what? And they're like, what the heck happened?A bit of a twist on that for me is that agency is very important to me, meaning choosing what I do. So, what can happen often is I'm intending to do something soon, then someone, often my partner, asks me to do the thing. Well, suddenly, yes, that whole body rush. Suddenly it feels like I've lost my choice, my agency. And now I'll be doing the thing to meet their request rather than doing it because I want to do it, even though I was already planning to do it. Resistance just immediately floods through me, and I need to work through that first, find my choice again, and then do the thing that I wanted to do all along.What that also means is that I am careful with my asks of others so that they aren't received as demands and leave space for a cheerful, "Yeah, I was already planning to do that this afternoon."ANNA: Yeah, I have definitely felt this one, too. And again, for that person asking, either they may just be processing out loud, they may be trying to check things off of our joint list. They're not trying to take away my agency and it still feels like they are. So, recognizing that trigger just helps me not snap back at that and just like, okay, that's about them. I'm planning to do it. It's almost even hard to kind of explain why that triggered reaction so intense. Because it doesn't make sense to the situation.And that's, again, your clue to say, okay, this is not about this person or this situation. This is about something that stems from long ago, most likely.And so, I think another flip side of this is that it can be really helpful to recognize when someone you're talking to is triggered. So, that will help you not take their actions personally. You can see that they're bringing an energy from somewhere else into the conversation and at that point, you can help slow things down. That will give them permission to slow down as well. It's never a time to push a point when you have somebody who's triggered in front of you. It will not go well. Asking for a break for yourself can give them a moment to regroup. Sometimes there's space for gentle questions, but often it's just better to just slow things down and allow them to ground back into the moment.We don't want to meet that with defensiveness or I really think you'd see when you start looking, that's where so many conflicts happen.In our closest relationships, I think it can be helpful to talk about this beforehand and have a plan if one of you is triggered. You can each decide what would feel okay in the moment. Is it moving towards a break? Is it a code word? Is it a somatic tool? Having some tools handy will help you both navigate those moments, so that it doesn't spiral into a deeper conflict. Because when we're in our rational brains, we don't want some trigger from our childhood to be impacting this relationship in front of us.PAM: Yes. When we begin to recognize when we are feeling triggered, it does become easier to notice it happening with others. And vice versa, because maybe we notice it in others first, which then opens our eyes to recognizing when it's happening to us. But either way, our world gets bigger and our compassion grows, I feel.And I also found it really helpful to chat with others about triggering situations outside of the strain of conflict. So, as you mentioned, we can talk about ways to share observations that the person seems triggered without further triggering them or us. And that can definitely look different for different people.How would you prefer someone to share that kind of information with you? And we can chat about different tools to play with to help release some of that intensity and bring us back into the moment with clearer eyes. Which tools work better for each person? How can we keep those tools close at hand and easy to access? That is another fun thing to play with. If it's a spray, if it's a smell, we can keep those things in our pocket. Put them in a basket in a main room, those kinds of things, because these are positive things, these are helpful tools. It's not like, oh my gosh, I'm failing, so I need to go and do this thing. Right? Not that at all.And we can also chat about different ways to approach conversations that have a better chance of just not triggering the other person's trauma or bad memories or fears. We don't want to trigger that so that it rushes to mind for them. So, it could be something simple as a change of phrase or Tone, as you mentioned, or energy. That can sometimes be all it takes not to trigger a trigger in the first place.And we can talk about how each person likes to process things like challenges and triggers. So, are they or you more of an external processor wanting to talk about it as they or us peel back the layers? Or more of an internal processor wanting some quiet time and space to think things through on their own? Or is it more of a mix dependent on the circumstances?And of course, all of these are not one and done conversations. We'll learn more and tweak things along the way. We'll try out a tool. It helps. It doesn't help. Maybe it helps for a while and then it stops helping as much. But this deeper understanding of ourselves and our loved ones most definitely can help us navigate conflict and triggers with more grace and compassion.ANNA: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I mean, it's a process, but with this greater understanding of ourselves, with this shared language that we're talking about, we'll be able to cultivate an environment where we can stay connected. We don't take things personally and we can remain open and curious.And I think, again, as we've been talking about, just bringing awareness changes what's happening in the home, because we have this language, we have this understanding, so it's not just running through the motions and kind of repeating the same fights, or repeating the same triggers or getting triggered every time something happens. So, I really love just these simple things that just bring new language and new awareness to the situations.PAM: Yeah. I feel, for me, the biggest thing was it helped me not take things personally. Understanding the nuances of all these different situations and how all the different pieces of who we are play into the relationship and conflict and conversations and triggers and all those pieces help me understand that, oh, this isn't all about me. And it's not them doing something wrong. It's just who we are. And that was so valuable to me in navigating relationships.ANNA: 100%. Okay, so let's talk about a few questions to consider this week. First, are you aware of your triggers? If not, look for themes when you find yourself activated, that seems a bit out of proportion with the situation. And be honest about that, because sometimes we're like, no, it was that serious. But the feeling in your body, you'll start to recognize it. Knowing our triggers really helps us be more intentional with our actions. PAM: It's feeling it in our body and like as you mentioned, it's like, no, it's not the trigger. If it happens multiple times. Like if it keeps happening over and over in similar situations like that, because the first 10 times, it's like, no, it's the thing. Yeah. Why does this thing keep happening?ANNA: It's not the thing! Oh my goodness. Okay. Number two. Can you think of a time when acting from a trigger impacted a conversation and what would it look like if you had a do-over? And I think that'll be interesting as you kind of recognize like, oh yeah, that tone, that something, is a trigger for me that then we kind of have this escalation or this same conflict.PAM: And I like the idea of thinking of it as a do-over, as in it helps us to more easily bring to mind choices in the moment. Because so often, when we're triggered, we just see the one thing. We're very focused on the one thing. So, we do our little bit of help to get us through those 90 seconds, through that first thing. And if we've thought about other possibilities, other ways we might choose to react, other kind of questions to ask in the situation versus declarations, if we've got that, it's closer to top of mind. So, over time, we can get to them a little bit quicker so that we can change, make a different choice, in recognition that we have a choice. And then as we talked about over time, we can tweak that and play with it.ANNA: Definitely. So, number three, have you noticed triggers in your partner? And so, this is interesting, because like you said, as we recognize it in ourselves, we start recognizing it in others, but it's also that repetition that you're talking about. So, it's like, oh, every time I ask them about this thing, they kind of get snappy with me or whatever. Okay. Most likely, that's not about your question or what's happening. There's a trigger that's being set off that would be helpful to understand. So, look for those, again, repeating things or repeating energy even, like the same energy's coming. What's the common denominator?PAM: Yes. I love that so much, because what we can do when we can start to recognize that repetitive reaction was seemingly over the top, because we can get stuck in, that is just over the top! I should be able to ask that question, so I just keep asking it again because their response is wrong.ANNA: If I just keep asking, it's going to get better.PAM: They'll figure it out. That might be a trigger. It's almost a response that they aren't able to control. That's when I can start thinking, oh, I'm going to play around with my tone, the energy, the timing of the question, the wording of the question, like there's so many ways that we can communicate something, that we can start to play with that and learn more. And then maybe in an off time have the conversation and ask them why are you feeling like that?ANNA: We're bringing more compassion to it. And again, these are the people that we love. This is who we want to be in these relationships, even if we get a little like, that's over the top and too much. Okay, so question four, what tools do you want to put in place with your partner to help each other navigate when one of you is feeling triggered?I really do think this is a cool conversation to have, especially if you notice some of these repeating fights or things happening, just like, "Hey, let's figure out, how do we take a timeout? How do we do that so it doesn't end up triggering that." Because we have abandonment triggers and then somebody feels if somebody's taking a break, then that can trigger something. But if we have some agreements ahead of time, if we have some plans in place, then we don't have to take it personally. It doesn't have to feel like that. And we can just give each other the space we need to be present and be intentional about what's happening in front of us.PAM: Yeah. I feel like with those conversations over time around it, it just helps lighten the weight too of the moment, to have somebody just recognize that we're triggered, recognize and not escalate back to us even. You could just absorb it for us and just show compassion, as you were saying. That's where we're going.ANNA: We want to cultivate that. For sure. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us this week and we look forward to next time. Take care!PAM: Bye.

heart resistance self awareness triggers tone conflicts second rule jill bolte taylor my stroke anna it anna yeah anna oh

March 30, 2023 - National Take A Walk In The Park Day | National Doctors Day

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 30, 2023 3:00

Welcome to March 30th, 2023 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate a walk in the park and a taste of our own medicine. Anna: Hey Marlo, it's Walk in the Park Day so I made a list of all the ways we say something is a "Walk in the Park"; It's easy, it's a cinch, it's a breeze, this is kid stuff, what a pushover, it's a no-brainer, a piece of cake, it's duck soup, it's a picnic, it's a cake walk... Marlo: um...wait...Anna? Anna, it's not Walk in the Park Day, it's TAKE a walk in the park day, a great day to get out and enjoy the outdoors. Anna: Oh. Marlo: C'mon Anna, I think you've been working too hard, let's go for a walk in the park. Anna: Thanks Marlo, that sounds good. John: On National Walk in the Park Day, get out and enjoy a little time off. In ancient times, when indigenous tribes called on a medicine man they believed that illness was caused by evil spirits or magic. Hippocrates dispelled this myth and became the father of modern medicine in ancient Greece. He viewed illness as a physical notion, and helped to move the needle forward. No pun intended. To this day physicians still take the Hippocratic oath. We owe thanks to countless medical professionals, but on this day in 1842, one doctor made a significant stride. Crawford Long M.D. administered the first ether anesthesia and the patient reported felt no pain. On National Doctors Day, we honor those who sacrifice to put the health of their communities first. I’m Anna Devere and I’m Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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March 7, 2023 - National Flapjack Day | National Cereal Day

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 7, 2023 3:30

Welcome to March 7th, 2023 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate breakfast food for the kid in all of us. Marlo: Hey Anna, whatcha cooking? Anna: Flapjacks Marlo; it's National Flapjack Day and I thought it would be fun to try out some recipes and toppings I found on the internet! Marlo: Okaaaaay, what's with this green one?? Anna: Ooo, that's an avocado and kale flapjack, fun and healthy! Marlo: Ummhmmm…This one looks more my speed. Anna: Oh yeah, this one is bacon and chocolate… Marlo: delicious! Anna: Here's a lunch or dinner flapjack, it's a cheeseburger flapjack! Marlo: Interesting, lemme try that! I like it! Anna: On National Flapjack Day, stretch your taste buds and try toppings that take this breakfast dish to all three meals plus dessert! Breakfast cereal appeals to the kid in all of us. If you were ever dragged along to the grocery store, one reward made it all worthwhile, a trip down the cereal aisle. But the brightly colored boxes promising a toy inside did not start out that exciting at all. And while Kellogg's Corn Flakes were the first cereal to provide a prize inside the box in 1909, they were originally designed to be boring. Dr. John Harvey Kellogg believed that a bland diet would keep us on the straight and narrow and Corn Flakes were his first line of defense. The cereal later took a ride aboard Apollo 11, where they were formed into cubes to be eaten without milk. Few other cereals have such an illustrious history, though some have enough sugar to rocket your kids to the moon and back. On National Cereal Day, celebrate your inner child with a bowl full of crunchy goodness. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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March 4, 2023 - National Play Outside Day | National Sons Day

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 4, 2023 3:30

Welcome to March 4th, 2023 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate playing outside and a chip off the old block. Marlo: Hey Anna, it's National Play Outside Day, let's get out of here, what do you want to do today? Anna: Oh! I'd like to go for a hike, let's go! Marlo: This is great! Fresh air, sunshine, not a care in the world! Anna: Yup, taking the show on the road! Playing outside is so good for us too, fresh air and exercise! Marlo: And it's so nice that the technology allows us to work AND play…hey John, you doing okay with all that gear? John: Oh…sure…no problem… Marlo: Let us know if we can help with anything… Anna: On National Play Outside Day go get some fresh air and stretch your legs, right John? John: Right. John Adams played an important role in the birth of America. And all the while, his son John Quincy observed him and took mental notes. As a child, he watched the Battle of Bunker Hill. By the age of 14, he was already involved in politics, serving as secretary to the American ambassador to Russia. A couple years later, he joined his father in Paris to aid the men working out the Treaty of Paris, which formally ended the American Revolution. Over the next few decades, he served as an ambassador, then a Senator, and eventually became the 6th president of the United States. Although he wasn't a very popular Commander in Chief, his parents were very proud of their son. On National Sons Day, remember that the kid following your footsteps today, will likely be leading others tomorrow. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

united states america american battle russia playing national fresh sons senators treaty american revolution commander in chief bunker hill play outside national day calendar john oh john right anna oh marlo anderson celebrate every day

LJ016: You Don't Need to Bring School Home [Parenting]

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 23, 2023 21:19

This week, we're sharing the first episode in our Parenting series, in which we'll explore our relationships with our children. We are excited to bring this new lens into our conversation! We decided to start this series with school, because it's a significant part of many children's lives. Yet, we don't need to bring school home. When it comes to our relationships with our children, life can be so much bigger than school. We can choose to put it in perspective as just one aspect of their lives.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. How does it feel to contemplate prioritizing your child, and your relationship with your child, over their school grades?2. What was your school experience growing up? Considering what we talked about in episode 3 about how people are different—and children are people too—how is your child different from you as a child? How is their school experience different from yours?3. What are some aspects of school that you might consider not enforcing at home? Where might you consider your child's needs more important than the school's expectations? What might that look like?4. Does your story of your child change when you don't include how they perform at school? If so, how? Which feels better? Which feels more true to the person your child is?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in the first 14 episodes and have really enjoyed how they're building on one another.If you've already been enjoying the podcast, we would love it if you could share it with someone in your life that you think might benefit from contemplating these ideas. It's super easy to share. Just send them to podcast.show/living joyfully. They can listen and read the show notes right there, or they can pick their favorite podcast player and it'll take them to the show. So, thank you so much for helping us spread the word.And this is our first episode in our parenting series in which we'll explore our relationships with our children. And I am really excited to bring this lens into our conversation. Now, we decided to start the conversation in this series with school because it's a significant part of most children's lives. Yet, spoiler alert, we don't need to bring school home.When it comes to our relationships with our children, life is so much bigger than school. That said, it can be hard to remember that in the thick of things while you're figuring out the day-to-day logistics of getting kids to and from school, of packing lunches, of finishing homework, of getting paperwork signed. But it's true.When we can take a moment to release the artificial urgency that's often generated by those schedules (and check out episode eight, There's Plenty of Time, if that is feeling hard) it can be invigorating to remember that life is so much more than that. Our relationships with our children are bigger than navigating their school attendance. School often looms large in our lives, but we can choose to put it in perspective. We can choose to give our relationships with our children priority.We have evenings and weekends at our disposal where we can choose to give priority to connecting with our kids, to engaging with them, and having fun together. Because when we pull up to that bigger picture, our relationships with our children will last for our lifetime, whereas the compulsory school years are only a dozen or so years of that. If we prioritize school over our relationships with them during childhood, though, what shape will our relationships with them be in the many decades still to come?ANNA: Yes. It's really so empowering to step back a bit and realize that we can absolutely prioritize the relationship with our child, even in the context of school. And that said, it does have a way of creeping into all the aspects of life. So, I think it really will be fun to step back a bit and be really intentional about the choices we're making and put it through that priority lens that we talked about way back in episode one. Keeping that lens handy as we navigate things that feel like have-tos helps us take ownership for our choices and act with clear intention.PAM: Absolutely. Yeah. Just going back to what our priorities are, what our whys are, that can just be so helpful to bring everything into context.So, now that we have put the school years themselves into a clearer perspective against the lifelong relationship that we're going to have with our children, let's look more closely at your child right now. Because your child is so much more than their grades. You know them in a much bigger sense than the school does, than their teacher does. You see them in different situations doing different things. You see the things they love to do, because you're with them when they have the chance to do them, and how they almost effortlessly learn when they're engaged in those activities.You see them grow and change over years, a perspective that their teachers just don't have. You can help your child feel seen and heard and valued for who they are as a whole person. School is just one aspect of their lives.And you can see things through your children's eyes. You can see all the learning they're doing beyond the school curriculum and their official grades. You can see them using what they're learning day-to-day in their conversations, in their activities, in their skill development. Those are more meaningful expressions of learning in the bigger picture than grades on tests. And yes, absolutely, grades have value when it comes to college applications and things. Yet the relentless judgment of grades as a reflection of the child's value as a person over those school years can be so harmful.ANNA: So harmful. There was a thread I read recently on Instagram where adults were talking about their memories of school and it was so intense to read as people talked about how those years felt to them. And it was interesting, because it was a mix of people. Some had excelled at school and had done really well, others had given up on it, but all of them were impacted in ways that have stuck with them and have required some unpacking over subsequent decades. And I was like, wow. It was hard to read.I think many of the negative aspects can be mitigated by connected relationships in the family, though, (and I think that's why we wanted to talk about it) by parents seeing the child as a whole honoring what they love, especially if it falls outside of what's valued at school.When I work with teens and families, they're coming to me because things are getting pretty dire, and so often, it boils down to the teen not feeling seen, heard, or understood. The pressure, the weight that's being carried, is massive for these kids. And validation and understanding around that works wonders.Many of the parents have bought fully into the importance of grades and performing in a way that prioritizes school performance above all else. But when you're faced with your child's mental health suffering, it casts it in a very different light. You start to see the bigger picture and realize their mental health is actually the most important thing to you and for them.And, here we go again. There's plenty of time. There's not one path to success and happiness. As much as school tells us that they have the right path and the answer to all the questions, they don't. It's not one size fits all, even for attending college and pursuing more traditional paths. More and more colleges are valuing different paths and students who are engaged in the world pursuing passions.But most of all, we want our teens to feel strong, confident, and connected. Focusing back on the relationship to really know your whole child, what they love, what weight they're carrying, what brings connection to the teen years that many people feel is impossible. It isn't. It's there for us if we move beyond acting as the school's enforcer and instead prioritize our relationship and partnering together.The teen years are pretty amazing, and while that can be surprising to some people, they really can be when you focus on the relationships and seeing the amazing person in front of you, hearing them, understanding them, partnering with them.PAM: Yes, yes, yes. I will say the teen years can definitely be amazing. So, as we start playing with our thoughts in this direction, another aspect that I want to touch on is that school is a choice. So, for example, you may not want to homeschool your children, yet remembering that it's a valid option reminds us that sending our kids to school is a choice, certainly throughout most of the world. And that can feel so empowering.Like, we're not doing anything differently, but the minute we remember this is a choice. The shift! The energetic shift that we can feel. We can choose how our family engages with the educational system in so many ways beyond just the compulsory attendance aspect.So, one thing to be aware of is that starting to think about school as a choice may well bring up our own school experiences, as you were mentioning, Anna, and we can carry the impact of our experiences for many years. So, maybe we felt very controlled, like we needed to submit to the system's authority. Maybe we acquiesced, maybe we fought it, and maybe those feelings all come flooding back as soon as we step into a school, even as a parent. We instinctively feel we need to do what the teacher tells us. But no. We're adults. It is definitely worth the effort to process our experiences growing up so we better understand them and better understand ourselves.So, while our school experiences can inform our choices, they needn't spill over into our current interactions. Recognizing our power doesn't mean that we need to be confrontational or argumentative with teachers or administrators. It does mean that we don't need to thoughtlessly take on whatever expectations they try to throw our way. We get to choose. We can prioritize our relationships with our children. We can prioritize them, as people, and that can make a world of difference in our family's lives over our family's lifetime.ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. And I think reminding ourselves of the choices is always so important. And it's not just homeschooling, it's the myriad of options and talking with your child about what they want out of the experience, because ultimately it is their life, their education.So, working with them to understand what drives them, what lights them up, how to fan those fires, instead of extinguishing them. We'll have a much better chance of helping them live their best life than thinking of traditional kind of one-size-fits-all school as the only option. And I want to acknowledge that it is scary to question some of these things that we've been handed. We've all been told is the only way.And we're not saying throw it all out. You can if you want, but it's more a call to just take a closer look, to look at our own experience in school. How did it serve us? And looking at how it didn't. How is it serving our child now? How is it falling short? Again, it's about bringing intention to those choices and making those choices together so that there's ownership and consent.PAM: Absolutely. Back to working together as a team. We are supporting them and helping them. And when there are challenges, we're helping them figure out ways to move through that, as well. I can just feel them feeling seen and heard when we have these conversations instead of shutting down any challenges they might be facing.So, lastly, I want to mention, what does it look like when we decide to thoughtfully consider how we engage with the school system? Because, as we said, we don't need to bring school home wholesale. We can choose our language around school. School can be a way to learn new things, but it's not the only way. School has a certain set of things they teach, the curriculum, but that by no means covers all the interesting things there are in the world that we and our kids can learn.Kids can learn interesting things in and out of the classroom. We don't need to value school learning over life learning, because learning is everywhere. And we know our kids. We can see through their eyes, recognize the things they're learning throughout their days. We can choose not to bring the ethos of school into our home, not to be a teacher substitute that values the generalized curriculum over the individual child. When our focus is instead on our child, on our relationship with them, and on learning wherever and whenever it happens, it's amazing the fun and engagement and just pure joy that can bubble up through our days.ANNA: Yes. I mean, what we say and the energy we bring to it has such a huge impact. By valuing all types of learning, we're showing them that the world is rich with opportunities. If they don't fit into the mold of school perfectly, that's okay. We see their value and the value of the way they learn. And maybe that's more hands-on or deep dives, things that don't work quite as well in school. Then they can put those things into perspective.And even if our child is excelling in the school environment, it's helpful to check in about what they love and exposing them to all the different ways to live, because maybe they're good at doing what's needed for the environment, but when that's over, they're left looking around wondering what they love, how they want to spend their time.And I think it's important to mention that schools have a deficit focus that kind of goes unnoticed, but it's big. They're trying to bring everybody to a center line of knowledge, and unfortunately it doesn't allow us to develop our strengths as we struggle in areas that we don't enjoy or pick up easily.And while we may not be able to change that approach in school, you can make sure that there are ample opportunities and support for your child to explore their passions, whether it be art, writing, math, sport, dance, plants, frogs, whatever is is. Together, you can find ways to help them dig into their passion and know that you see and support them doing things that they love, because no matter what the passion is, no matter how tiny and niche there are people out there making money pursuing it, creating careers and a life around it.Just exposing kids to all the ways there are to live in the world, all the paths, will help them so much as they try to find their own unique path. No one is served by the idea that there's one right way, one path to success. There are countless 40-year-olds out there struggling because they bought that story and now realize it's a myth. But again, connecting with your child or teen now, really hearing them, helping them find their path, not only preserves your relationship, but gives them a strong foundation from which to build a life they don't have to start unpacking in their forties. PAM: Yes, yes, yes. And I want to bring that up once more, what you were talking there about a child who is doing well at school, who's excelling at school. Because if we just leave that as the one right path, because they are successful on that one right path, who knows? When they graduate, it's like, oh, is that the path that I want now when there are so many other possibilities?So, even if things seem to be going "well" and smoothly, it's still beautiful and connecting and wonderful to help them also explore and have fun outside of school, find their passions. Or maybe it's a passion that they've found, something they love that they're enjoying through school.We can bring more of that into their lives outside, getting to know them and helping them feel seen and heard by you, not just through the school experience, as well.So, as you contemplate how you see school weaving through your family's lives, here are some questions that we hope you will consider. The first one is, how does it feel as you contemplate prioritizing your child and your relationship with your child over their school grades? Again, it's just like, contemplate for yourself. It's okay to ask yourself any question. Any question is okay.Number two. What was your school experience growing up? Considering what we talked about in episode three about how people are different and children are people, too, how is your child different from you as a child? How is their school experience different from yours? And I think this is a great one, because sometimes, as parents, we can have like this image of a child in our mind and that's what we're comparing our child against.But if we can let that drift away, that image of what we thought a child should be or could be ... We wanted our child to like the same things that we like, so we could do them together. If you can let go of all those pieces and just look at the child in front of you and think about how they're different, whether it's in their personalities, the things that they like to do, like all those pieces. Just look at that for a while and think about the differences. That can help us see through their eyes more easily than just our lens of how we're looking at things.Question three or group of questions number three, what are some aspects of school that you might consider not enforcing at home? Where might you consider your child's needs more important than the school's expectations? And what might that look like? Just play with that for a bit.ANNA: Yeah. And I want to add the, what does it feel like? here, too, because I'm guessing as even you contemplate this question, you're putting yourself back in that role again of, "But I have to," and so then that's cool to notice, like, "Okay, I am bringing some of that into this exchange with my child and their relationship to school." And so, yeah, just contemplating those questions and how they feel and what it might look like, I think, would be really interesting.PAM: Yeah, that's the wonderful thing and why we keep talking about energy and how we're feeling, because often our brain doesn't yet maybe notice or want to think about the thing, but if we notice our body's tensing up, that's just a clue that there's something there. Or we notice thinking about something, oh, that feels lighter all of a sudden. I didn't know I wasn't breathing deeply! Wonderful, wonderful clues.Okay, so our last question. Does your story of your child change when you don't include how they perform at school? If so, how does it change? And which story feels better? Which feels more true to the person that your child is? I love that one. ANNA: Me, too. Because so often, that is the only way we interact with children is, what's your favorite subject? What'd you do at school today? And so, really, is that the story you're telling of your child?Is it steeped in this school or are you seeing these other aspects of them?PAM: I remember when I first noticed that the first question other adults in the world asked my kids when they met them was, what grade are you in? And that's fine. I'm in grade whatever. Yet, oh my gosh, the lens of school is ubiquitous. It is everywhere. And your child is more than their school attendance and you don't need to bring that home. It's absolutely an aspect of their lives, but it's not all their lives and it doesn't define who they are as a whole.ANNA: And I guarantee you that they want to be seen as more than that. Even if they love school, they want to be seen as more than that. And so, that will just be really fun to check in and see.PAM: Yes. I love that. Thank you so much for listening everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye!ANNA: Bye-bye. Take care.

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LJ014: From Control to Connection [Foundations]

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 26, 2023 22:08

In this week's episode we're talking about moving from control to connection. Power and control are pretty insidious, seeping into so many corners of our lives. We talk about dropping the need to be right, considering the context of the moment, and the value of transparent communication. Reaching for control is often a red flag that shows where we might want to dig deeper, to figure out what's really at play. Moving towards connection helps strengthen our relationships and makes navigating conflicts so much easier.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. Next time you're talking with your partner or friend about what to do next, try adding “for me” to the conversation. Like, “The right thing to do, for me, is X.” How does that feel? How does the conversation flow from there?2. Do you notice yourself grasping for control more often in moments that have a sense of urgency for you? Can you remind yourself that there's plenty of time? Does that help?3. Do you feel resistance when someone else tells you what to do? Why? Does it feel like they've taken away your choice? Do you purposefully avoid doing that thing now, even if it seems like it might be helpful?4. Turning that around, do you feel resistance from your partner and/or children when you tell them what to do? What does their resistance look like from your perspective? Now shift and see the situation through their eyes (see episode 4 for more details).TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are so happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in these first 14 episodes and have really enjoyed how they're building on one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we would love if you could share it with someone in your life that you think would benefit from contemplating these ideas. It is super easy to share. Just send them to pod.link/livingjoyfully. From there, they can pick their favorite podcast player and it will take them right to the show in that app. Thank you so much for helping us spread the word.So, back in episode two, we talked about connection and how connecting with another person creates a feeling of being in alignment with them, where each person feels seen and heard for who they are. Yet the cultural and conventional wisdom that surrounds relationships is steeped in power and control, which is almost the opposite of connection.Now, granted, I think many people would answer that they prioritize connection over control, especially in their closest relationships, like with their partner and children. But what's interesting is that what that looks like day to day can be a lot more nuanced than we first think. Power and control are pretty insidious, seeping into so many corners of our lives. So, this week we want to talk about what the shift from control to connection might look like in our relationships.For me, one of the most impactful paradigm shifts, as I moved away from using power and control as a relationship tool to focusing on connection, was a shift away from needing to be right, which to be clear is not the same thing as being wrong. That's one of the societal frameworks that keeps us stuck in control-based relationship dynamics, that one person is right and the other is wrong. That right and wrong, black and white thinking is overly simplistic, particularly when it comes to the complexity of being in relationship with another human being. Not needing to be right means not needing to be universally right. It means recognizing that people are different, which we dove into back in episode three.What I can say is, "This is what feels right for me." We aren't in competition with the people we love. It is not us versus them. When I don't feel the need to judge the other person's choices or interests as right or wrong, I am so much freer to connect with them as the unique person they are and to show up as the unique person I am. For me, releasing the need for the other person to agree that I'm right weaves together nicely with the idea of being open and curious that we talked about a few weeks ago in episode 11. I can know what's right for me and I'm curious to discover what's right for them. ANNA: Yes! I think our culture sets up competition and black and white thinking pretty much from the get-go, especially in school. And while leaning into that paradigm might serve us in that environment, it does not help with our relationships at all. We want to cultivate an environment where we're learning about each other, not pushing a particular agenda. And understanding we're not universally right about all the things is a big step.And if I'm having trouble finding that energy, I'll use my mantra, "Be kind, not right," because at this point, I'm usually looking at the choice of being right and harming the relationship or being kind and staying connected. And I just always want to stay connected to the people that I love, because it's from that place that we move with the most ease through our days and through any issues.And over the years, it's been interesting to see how, when I can refrain from jumping in with my idea of what's right, I can learn so much. Because we are all so different. We really can see the very same situation completely differently. And when we leave space to see through another person's eyes, we find that maybe things really weren't as black and white as we originally thought they were.PAM: Yes. Choosing to give that space to listen rather than jumping in with my two cents was a pivotal shift for me in cultivating connected and trusting relationships. There was space for me to learn so much more about my partner and kids and about the situations and how they saw them. So often, situations were, and are, so much more nuanced than I first thought.So, another valuable shift that has helped me move away from control and focus on connection in my relationships has been recognizing that so much of life isn't as urgent as we're led to believe. We first talked about that in episode eight, "There's Plenty of Time." And I really do love how so many of these foundational ideas weave together. That's why they feel foundational to us. You'll hear us mentioning, oh, this one and this one.So, when something feels urgent, it makes sense for us to be tempted to fall back on control tactics. Because we feel like we need things to happen quickly. We need to solve this fast. But so often, that urgency isn't real. It's ingrained through societal messages like, doing things faster is better. The first person across the line wins.But truly, when it comes to relationships, it's not a race. And doing things in connection is better. So, sure, it can take longer to have conversations and come up with a plan that works for both parties, rather than just telling them what to do and expecting it to be. Yet the resentment that builds in the relationship as a result will eventually need repair. So, I think it's more like a tradeoff, right? The time upfront to prioritize the connection or the time later to repair the connection. So, for me, the relationship is just much more enjoyable and fun when I prioritize the connection as much as I can versus the ups and downs of control, repair, control, repair.Enough things, when you think about it, really do come up in a relationship that need repair. I don't need to create more by stepping in and trying to control other people. Because I sure don't like when they try to do it to me!ANNA: Right! For me, it's really an energy thing. Like, where do I wanna spend my energy? Because I can tend towards controlling things in the environment, but it's like, do I want to spend all that energy trying to control humans that don't want to be controlled? Or do I want to have that connection? Do I want to do that upfront work with those conversations. And for me, that just felt better in my days. It just felt better with my kids. It feels better with my partner.And I don't know if we can ever mention the culturally embedded sense of urgency too much, because it really is this state that keeps us from tuning into ourselves and to others. And letting go of it is so liberating. When something's a true emergency, we'll know, and we'll act on it right away. Every other time, we can take that pause and tune into the people around us to really understand where they're coming from and also tune into ourselves so that we can communicate our needs in a way that isn't pushing through someone else's consent or running over top of their needs.That self-awareness piece is so critical, and it takes some time to develop, because many of us did not have our needs acknowledged as children. So, it's hard to even know what we want or why we want it. Teasing apart the cultural shoulds and have tos from our true inner voice takes practice, especially if we were discounted as kids.But as we learn to listen to ourselves, we're then able to communicate from that place. And it's more honest and it's more understandable. When we're throwing shoulds and have tos at people, shoulds and have tos that we may not even fully understand or buy into, it's just a recipe for misunderstanding and disconnection.But when something truly means something to us, we can explain the why. And then we leave space for the other person to do the same. We can have these more interesting conversations where we're learning about one another and where we can find solutions that feel good to both of us. And that begins with the generous assumption that there may be more than one right way, our way, to look at a situation.PAM: Oh, it's so true. Developing that level of self-awareness where we better understand and can communicate our why is pretty key to moving from control to connection in our close relationships, and I see it as a wonderful spiral.As we better understand ourselves, it opens us up to recognizing that others have that depth as well, which helps us give space to learn more about them and connect more deeply with them, which in turn inspires us to dig deeper ourselves and round and round. Because there is no need to wait until we think we perfectly understand ourselves and give ourselves an A before opening up these conversations.I think that's one thing I can promise. There are always more layers. Always, always. It's an ongoing journey.All right, so, one other thing I want to mention is that when we're feeling the urge to reach for control in our relationships, sometimes what's underneath that is fear rather than judgment. Controlling the other person feels like the safer choice to us. When that happens, it's also worth digging into seeing where that's coming from. It is always worth digging.So, maybe it's something we've absorbed about relationships growing up. A really simple example might be if growing up our parents were adamant that we, that's that royal family we, must always be sorry after a disagreement, whether or not we felt it. That message was ingrained in us, and now we're an adult, and if our partner doesn't tend to apologize automatically, we may find ourselves trying to convince, in other words control, them to do so. The perfunctory apology feels safer to the relationship for us, because that's the message we absorbed growing up.But is it really? As we become more insistent, they may well become increasingly resistant. Few people like that feeling of being controlled at any age. So, it's worth digging deeper to discover where we've picked up messages about being in relationship with others that lead us to reach for control, and then taking the time to ponder whether they actually make sense to us now. We've got an experience now. We have real people in front of us that we are in relationship with. Is it working? How is it working? How is it feeling? It's so worth taking the time to dig into that. ANNA: It really is. And I think control is pretty much always hiding something. And I think you're right that it is often fear and judgment. And it's so helpful to dig into that, because then we can understand the fear. I feel like it's rare that fear can stand up to shining a light on it, when we really call it out in front of us. It tends to lurk back in the recesses. I think insecurity can also be tied up in it as well. And if we're unwilling to look at where that's coming from, it can cast this huge shadow on the relationship.I've worked with couples where one of them looks to control to help themselves feel safe. But what that looks like is saying things like their partner needs to delete Instagram or change their communications, or stop doing X. And even if the partner agrees in the moment, it's this very shaky foundation to build upon, because trust is one of the most important elements of relationship. We build trust through conversations and owning our own pieces, through hearing our partner, and offering that generous assumption.So, we can look and talk about what feels scary about Instagram, we can walk through it, own our pieces, and keep having the conversation. Because no one wants to feel controlled, and a coerced mind is not a changed mind. So, at the first sign of trouble, those shaky agreements are thrown out the window and then feelings are hurt. We need to understand the why behind actions for them to have meaning. That only happens through really listening to one another and finding a path forward that works for everyone.PAM: Yes. I love that so much. A coerced mind is not a changed mind. Just thinking for myself, for me to change my mind, I do need to understand the why behind it. I need that bigger picture. It needs to make sense to me. And pulling it back to being open and curious, I want to be open to learning more and to changing my mind, because again, I'm not clinging to my perspective, my right answer, as the right answer for everyone. I'm curious to learn more about it. It just all weaves together so beautifully, doesn't it?ANNA: Oh my gosh. It really does. And we also talk a lot about context, and I think it's important to think about context as it relates to control, as well. If we find ourselves grasping for control in our relationships, or we see our partner trying to control us or our children, look at what's going on in the wider context. Because I've seen over and over again that if work feels out of control, we clamp down at home. And if home is feeling out of control, we clamp down at work. And that leaves the people impacted really reeling, having no idea where it's coming from. And it can lead to some pretty big ruptures.So, owning when things feel hard and out of control and realizing that trying to control others won't change that. It just ends up disconnecting us from the people who could actually be providing support during the challenges. And when we see it happening, that's where I think some narration can really help our partner. "I'm feeling a lot of pressure at work and it feels like we might not even have jobs next week, and it's making me feel freaked out and snappy." That helps our partner know what's happening in our mind, helps them not take it personally. And it keeps us honest.We don't need or want to take things out on our partner, but when we're operating on autopilot, we often will, and it just never feels good.Context includes a lot of things, not just work and home life, but smaller things like sleep and have we eaten and hormones and visiting relatives and bigger things like death and major changes like moves or a new job. Even when it's something positive that's happening, it can still be adding to our sense of overwhelm and triggering that need for control. So, being honest with ourselves and really taking responsibility for how we're showing up can help so much. And if we see it in our partner, we can gently hold space for them to view the larger context, to try to make sense of the behaviors that are causing harm or disconnection.I really believe our natural state is to want to be connected. So, given the opportunity to be seen and heard, we'll choose to find a way back to it. If we trust our partners and our children in that, it will create an environment where we're helping each other and finding solutions, and then we see there's no need for power over.PAM: Yes, there is no need to exert power over others. We really can instead work together as a team. And while it is absolutely not an easy button, my goodness, it feels so much richer and vibrant and real. Feeling seen and heard and understood just makes a world of difference for everyone at every age. And that happens through being in connection with another person, where we can share that this stuff is going on right now, or, "I'm having a hard day." Even when we just feel like we've been beaten down a bit, we are snappier. We just jump to the answer, because we don't have time, or we don't have the capacity to think of all these other options. And you don't want the other person to think, oh, that's weird. They're acting strange. ANNA: What's happening there? But it's really the connection that would help us through those T tumultuous times when we tend to reach for control. So, it's like, use it as a red flag, create a culture where you can talk about when that control starts to seep in. Because really what's happening is we need more connection, and so, just understanding that can really change things in a home, especially if there's just a lot of tough stuff going on.PAM: Yeah, that is such a great point, because not only if we can express what's going on in our heads, it doesn't have to be a big, long explanation of all the things. It's like, "I'm feeling overwhelmed right now." Then not only did they not take it personally when we're feeling snappy, like you said, their support is then yet another benefit. It's like, "Oh, is there anything I can do? Would you like to go take a little break? I'll look after this for you."So, not only are we not making them feel bad about themselves, not creating a disconnection, we're also getting the support alongside it so often. So, it's just good. Connection is so good in so many ways.All right. So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea of choosing connection over control.Next time you're talking with your partner or friend about what to do next, try adding, "for me," to the conversation. Like, "The right thing to do for me is X." How does that feel? How does the conversation flow from there? Just opening up the possibilities. "The right thing to do is," like how closed down that feels. "For me, it's this." That just invites someone else to say, "Well, for me, I'm kind of feeling Y. Is there a way we can put X and Y together and then we'll all be happy?" That's just a great baby step to take in that kind of situation.Okay. So, question two, do you notice yourself grasping for control more often in moments that have a sense of urgency for you? Can you remind yourself there's plenty of time? And does that help? Why or why not? Is there more to dig into there?ANNA: Right. But it's that red flag. Just know that control is the red flag. Start looking at the other pieces and the context, the sense of urgency, the other things that could be happening. It just gives you a lot of information.PAM: Yeah. Okay, so question three. Do you feel resistance when someone else tells you what to do? Why? Does it feel like they've taken away your choice? Do you purposefully avoid doing that thing now, even if it seems like it might be helpful? I'm definitely guilty of that. It's so interesting to dig in and just to see, because it can happen. In our world, it often happens. Somebody's just telling us what to do, right? To take a moment to just see how that feels can be so valuable.Question number four, turning that around, do you feel resistance from your partner or your children when you tell them what to do? What does their resistance look like from your perspective? Now shift the situation and see through their eyes. You can listen to episode number four for more details. And what does it look like now? I find it fascinating to think of, what does their resistance look like? Because it's often not a shouted no in your face or, but all of a sudden they may be in other rooms.ANNA: That withdrawing or it comes back a little bit later. Just watch how, when we're trying to control other people, how it impacts all the energy of the house, even when it's not someone that we're even directly controlling. There's just so much to be aware of there, and it's usually, again, just hiding some other piece, that digging in that we talked about that's so important.PAM: Yeah, exactly. Because when we can take that time to dig in that little bit, then we can shift to the conversation that we're always talking about. That conversation brings that connection. So again, it's not like we're stuffing down the things that we're feeling and seeing, but we're being open to learning how other people are seeing it and to understanding what it looks like through their eyes.Okay. Thank you so much for listening to us chat again. We are so excited to be having these conversations with you, and we would love to hear about how you are engaging with the questions, and we will see you next time. Bye!ANNA: Take care.

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LJ012: Baby Steps [Foundations]

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 12, 2023 17:37

This week on the podcast, we're talking about baby steps. So often, when we're faced with a challenge or making a choice, we don't need to have the full picture or the final answer in order to move forward. By taking a baby step in the direction that makes sense to us or to our loved ones, we can learn more about the situation and see how it feels. One baby step can lead naturally to the next. As we keep communicating and checking in, we can find a path forward that works for everyone.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.Does it feel like many of the day to day choices you're making are urgent? Are they really? If you haven't listened to episode 8 yet about Anna's mantra, “there's plenty of time,” I highly recommend it.Thinking back, can you remember a time when you felt pressured (often by ourselves!) to make a decision quickly yet the better choice wasn't immediately clear? Can you think of a series of baby steps that might have helped? Feel free to get creative!Is there a choice or a goal you're considering right now that feels big? You don't need to know exactly how you'd get there, but can you see a baby step in that direction? Can you do that and see what happens?Are you more of a leap-first person or a firm-footing person? What about your partner? Your children? How can understanding that help you communicate with them about future decisions?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in these first dozen episodes and have really enjoyed how they are building on one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, please share it with the people in your life that you think would benefit from contemplating these ideas. It's super easy to share. Just send them to pod.link/livingjoyfully. From there, they can pick their favorite podcast player and it will take them right to the show in that app. Thanks so much for helping us spread the word.And so, this week, we are going to talk about the idea of baby steps. When we're trying to make a choice, so often, we don't need to make the big, ultimate decision right now. This builds on the idea that there's plenty of time, which we talked about a few weeks ago. These are the threads that are moving through them all.So, maybe we're not yet sure whether we want to pursue the end goal that we're considering. When we find ourselves here, what's often missing is more information or experience. So, taking the next baby step in that direction can give us more information to help us make that bigger picture decision. Sometimes we need to take quite a few baby steps before we get a keen sense of what we ultimately want to do.Or, maybe our partner or child wants to do something that stretches our comfort zone. Chances are, we don't need to make a yes/no choice immediately. Staying open and curious, which we talked about last week, can help us take the next baby step in that direction and just learn more about what it entails and how it feels. It can also give us a better understanding of why they're wanting to go in that direction and some experience that can help us better explain our perspective. We're learning more about them and we're learning more about ourselves.That deeper level of self-awareness and having a better grasp of the language around their goal, now we can have more meaningful and connected conversations with them. There's just so much we can learn when we try just that next baby step, isn't there?ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. And it really is the natural extension of last week's discussion on being open and curious. When our partner or child brings us something they want to do, sometimes if we don't see the whole path clearly, we'll just shut it down. At the first thought of resistance, we're just like, "No, that doesn't sound doable." But if instead we can ask some questions and start walking in that direction, we learn so much more about each other and also about the task at hand. What does it really mean? What is it really going to entail?We don't have to commit to that end goal, like you're saying, right away. Taking that first step helps us learn more and keeps us connected.PAM: Yeah. Yeah. So, I have a story to share about taking baby steps and stretching my comfort zone, that, looking back, I do remember fondly.It's an example of how we don't need to make all or nothing decisions immediately, and how choosing the next baby step does not mean that you've committed to a big yes right now.So, this happened years ago now, in the aftermath of a big January snowstorm. My daughter was maybe 13 or 14 and we had tickets to see a concert in the city about an hour away. So, that morning, the snow was falling heavily and I was sure they'd cancel the show. People were being told to stay home if possible. I was looking forward to settling in and hanging out around the fire in our wood stove.My daughter had been looking forward to the show and was understandably disappointed. I told her that I was pretty sure they'd reschedule the show. So, she wouldn't miss it. It would just be postponed. She kept checking the website. And by early afternoon, they announced that the show was going to go on.Obviously, she wanted to go and I wanted to stay home. I imagined all the hurdles in our way. And it seemed like way too much work, yet I could see her immense disappointment and I chose to shift to being open and curious about the possibility.And though I couldn't yet muster a, "Yes, let's go!" I did manage to take a baby step to meet her with a maybe. Though the snow had now stopped falling, I explained the obstacles I saw and that I was willing to try the next baby step and see how it looked. If it looked okay, we'd try the next baby step and the next, and she agreed.So, step one was, clean off the car and shovel enough of the driveway to get out by our planned departure time. And we did it, even after the snow plow went by and created another curb of snow at the end of the driveway that we had to dig through again.So, step two, is our local rural road plowed and safely drivable? Once we could peek out and see the road, that was a yes, too. Step three was pack the car with extra hats and mitts and snacks in case we get stuck along the way. Done.By the time we pulled out of the driveway, it felt like we were on quite the adventure. I was rather surprised we'd actually made it this far, but there was no point that said, "Stop," so we kept going. Step four, as we slowly drove into the city, I reminded her that if the road or the traffic got bad, we would turn back. Even in her excitement, she was fine with that. It turned out that though the roads were snow-covered, they had been plowed, so it wasn't deep, and traffic was very light. Slowly but surely, we made our way into the city.Step five, we pulled into the venue parking lot. We were both so surprised to find ourselves there. It was almost surreal. I can still remember the feeling. So white and quiet outside. And inside, the concert turned out to be a very intimate show. The band thanked those who showed up and really connected with the audience as they played. It ended up being a pretty magical night.I remember that day vividly because it was a great reminder that, when I'm feeling overwhelmed, when I'm feeling like I need to make a big yes/no choice, taking baby steps and looking around after each one to see what's up and see how I'm feeling can be a really helpful way for me to move through it.I could acknowledge both my discomfort and her enthusiasm, holding both of them gently in my hands. And baby step by baby step, explore whether we could find a path forward that worked for both of us.And that said, sometimes we don't have the capacity for that, and that's okay. Sometimes we start out and come to an impasse. That's okay, too. But sometimes we find a path of baby steps that works out. And over the years, that happened way more often than I expected. That inspired me each time just to give it a shot.ANNA: Just to give it a shot! Oh my gosh. I love that story. And I think what I want to highlight is that by being open to those next steps and communicating along the way, you stayed on the same side.You were a team. You were solving it together. You were traveling those next steps together. And you could have shut it down with a no saying, it's just too snowy, which really wouldn't have been that unreasonable of a reaction. But most likely, it would've led to some kind of rupture, even beyond the disappointment. Maybe even a slammed door or just some kind of upset. But instead, you dug into your concerns. You were honest about them, talked about them, and slowly started to address them together, knowing that at any time you could change your mind.And what she saw was that you were trying, and again, that you were working together. And that is just such a different energy than making top-down decisions. Because had it not worked out, she would've seen the path of why it didn't work out. The road's impassable. We can't get the driveway dug out. The car's not starting. Whatever the real thing would've been, as opposed to you inside by the fire making that choice for her.I think we can do this with our partners, too. They'll have an idea and instead of examining where our reactions are coming from, we just react and we shut it down and it's really disconnecting. And interestingly, we can do this whether the idea has anything to do with us or not. It's really easy to fall into that trap of pointing out all the problems. Instead, we can listen, ask questions, celebrate the excitement that the person has for the idea. That's what keeps us connected and helps us find the next steps that make sense.So, it's back to being open and curious. I want to cultivate that mindset when someone comes to me with an idea, because from that place, we can figure out any resistance and start to address it with those next baby steps. And the key with this process is to remain connected and curious. I can be honest about what's coming up for me without judging or shutting down what's happening for them and where they want to go.I think part of it is releasing any sense of urgency, which we talk about a lot. I know sometimes I can feel pressured when somebody comes to me with a request, but what I've learned is that, if I answer from that place, I most likely will say no or something that disconnects us. It's okay to ask for some time to think and gather your thoughts and consider things. And that's back to, are you an internal or external processor? Taking time to think about what's causing the resistance helps you to be able to communicate that with your partner and child.And honestly, the first step is often just listening, like really listening. What's behind the request? What are they excited about? How do they see it playing out? Then perhaps the next step is really still information gathering. There's a lot you can do that's pretty low stakes, but it shows that you're open to understanding and trying to find a path forward, and it just makes all the difference in a relationship.PAM: Yes, as an internal processor, I have said to my kids over the years and they learned to work with, "If you need an answer right now, it's gonna be a no. But if you give me a few minutes to just take it in and figure out how it feels and what it looks like," I just need to process it and it's not something I can do aloud. As an internal processor, I just need to do it in my head. And do the different paths. Okay, so this is the change, this is what that change looks like over the rest of the day or week, depending on what it is. And then I'm like, "Oh yeah, that's all good." And then I go back and say, yes, or I actually discover what the hiccup is, and then I can go and say, "Oh, but look, that impacts this for me. How can we address that?"But if I need to answer right away, I would say no. And most people are not like, "I'll take the no right away, please." So, seeing through their eyes is just so very helpful, because that's what each baby step can help us with. So, even if I don't get to a place where I share their level of excitement about the thing, I can definitely often get to a place where I can appreciate their excitement. And want it for them. That makes all the difference in the world for me.ANNA: So much. And I think just what you were just talking about it, it's important to acknowledge that there are differences that we can learn about in each other. And we talked a bit about that in episode three, but I think this is another potential difference that can trip up relationships.So, you're going to have the people who like to leap first, ask questions later, and then you're going to have people who really need to feel out every step, to confirm that there's some firm footing here before I go any further. And understanding where you lie on that continuum will help you communicate with your partner.So, if you're a leap-first person and you're partnered with a firm-footing-only person, you can take that into consideration, just like your kids were able to do, and see that their questions are not about discounting your idea at all but that they're trying to make the idea work for them.So remember, often our work is to not take things personally, but to see that our partner's actions or behaviors are trying to meet a need. And so, then we're learning about one another and we're learning about how to approach these conversations. So, even when you have two different styles, you can find ways to come together honoring each other. That starts with setting any defensiveness aside and trusting that the two of you will keep working to find a path forward that feels good.You may find some unique combinations of leaping and planning or leaning on each other's strengths to get the best outcome, because so often in these situations, it's really a bit of both, right? Leaps of faith and some pre-planning that get us there. And sometimes there's certain situations that are better served by one or the other, but knowing each of your strengths puts you in the best position to get where you want to go together and helping one another. Knowing that there are options and keeping the lines of communication open helps us remain connected even if we're navigating difficult decisions or stretching our comfort zones.PAM: Yes. Our differing personalities are such a great thing to consider when we're talking about goals, paths, and what that next step might be. It makes all the difference. And as you were sharing there, what comes to mind for me is just the experience. Each time we move through it, we're building trust with the other person. Trust that I will consider the kind of person you are. What feels good to you? What doesn't feel good to you? I'm not gonna try and railroad my answer. But I'm not going to just accept your answer either and be martyrly about it, because that's going to lead to burnout. That's going to lead to overwhelm, all sorts of places. And sometimes that happens, but then there's work to move through that and to get back to connection from there.So, the more I can bring myself and be open and curious about other people, each time that happens, we build a little bit more trust that this process is working for us, no matter what path we ended up on. That, to me, was always one of the most fun things. Yes, there was a hard piece about the uncertainty, like going into the conversation, not knowing where we'd go, but oh my gosh, the places that we ended up so often were way more interesting and fun than the original path that I thought of.ANNA: That's so true, but that's because we were open and created this environment where they could feel open to ask and respect and understand, and all of those pieces that weave together to create these strong, connected relationships that we're talking about every week.PAM: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore how taking baby steps can make choices and decisions easier. It's a skill that you can definitely get better at through experience.So, number one, does it feel like many of the day to day choices you're making are urgent? Are they really? If you haven't listened to episode eight yet about Anna's mantra, There's Plenty of Time, I highly recommend you start there.Question two, thinking back, can you remember a time when you felt pressured (and that can be pressure we're putting on ourselves) to make a decision quickly, yet the better choice wasn't immediately clear? Can you think of a series of baby steps that might have helped you along the way? And feel free to get creative. It can feel like, oh, that's just more work. But, oh my gosh, the journey is the experience.ANNA: Exactly. And the creativity is all a part of it and what makes it a little bit lighter, not so much weight, as we can be creative together.PAM: Yeah. All right. Question three. Is there a choice or a goal you're considering right now that feels big to you? You don't need to know exactly how you would get there, but can you see a baby step in that direction? Can you do that and just see what happens?And lastly, are you more of a leap-first person or a firm-footing person? What about your partner, your children? How can understanding that help you communicate with them about future decisions?All right. Thank you so, so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye! Have a great day!

time trust babies thinking staying chances foundations baby steps leaps anna oh anna so

LJ011: Open and Curious [Foundations]

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2023 15:25

Open and curious is a helpful mindset shift for navigating relationships and challenges. In this week's episode, we dive into Pam's mantra and some of the many ways that it has proven to be so valuable in our lives. Being open and curious takes us back to beginner's mind and allows us to see possibilities and question limiting beliefs that no longer serve us. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.How does it feel to think about being open and curious about the people in your life? What do you discover through that lens? Try being open and curious while navigating a conflict this week, rather than jumping right to the solution you have in mind. What felt different? Think about something in your life that you're feeling stuck around. What bubbles up when you approach it with openness and curiosity? What other possibilities exist? Next time you're judging something your partner or child is choosing to do as “bad,” play with the question “Who would I be without this perspective? What would I do instead? How would that feel?” TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Thanks so much for joining us as we explore relationships, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and have really enjoyed how they've been building upon one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and a review. That definitely helps new people find us.In today's episode, we're gonna talk about being open and curious. This is something you will hear us say a lot. I first heard about it from Pam and I find myself saying it daily at this point. When you think about the opposite, it's being closed and disinterested, so it's pretty easy to see why we both love it.I don't want to move through the world feeling closed and disinterested, and it definitely doesn't help us solve problems or to connect with the people around us.Being open and curious serves us in our relationships on a lot of different levels. When we're open and curious about our partner, we want to understand them, what's important to them, why they see things the way they do. We want to set aside any judgment and really lean into connecting with the person in front of us.When I find myself not understanding something they did or said, I can remind myself to be open and curious about it, to not jump to conclusions, to not write a story, like we were talking about last week.That gives us the best chance to avoid a misunderstanding. And part of being curious is asking questions and listening.PAM: Yeah. I love this so much. I have found open and curious to be such a helpful lens to bring to my relationships. For me, it's a quick way to get to beginner's mind, which is a place where I don't feel like I have to know the answers, and I'm just curious to learn more. I often feel a sense of wonder and a childlike energy when I can get there. And it's not childish. Childlike. There's a big distinction.So, when I'm open and curious, I'm attentive and I'm interested in hearing new ideas and new perspectives. I want to learn how the other person is seeing things. I want to learn what they're interested in and why it lights them up. And, of course, that doesn't mean forgetting about who I am.To me, beginner's mind is about understanding that the world is richer than just my story. My story, the one I tell about myself, is definitely a vibrant thread, but it also weaves alongside the stories of the other important people in my life. And it reminds me that their story is theirs to tell and I want to listen. I want to know them, not my version of them.And to take that metaphor just one step deeper, being open and curious reminds me to explore the tapestry of my life, which includes the people I love and care about, not just the thread of my story, thinking it's the one right way to move through the world. It's a tapestry of unique people and stories that weave together to create the bigger picture of my life, which leads us nicely into the next aspect that we wanted to talk about, doesn't it?ANNA: It does. Because being open and curious also really serves us when there's a conflict. So often, when we find ourselves in a conflict, we have in our mind the right answer, how this needs to resolve for me to be satisfied. And unfortunately, It just rarely works out the way we plan.If we come into the conflict pushing our agenda as the only way, we put the other person on the defensive and we end up spending a lot of time defending ideas back and forth, really rarely hearing the other person's perspective at all. And if we come into the disagreement with this open, curious mindset that we're talking about, we aren't abandoning our ideas, like you said, we're just remaining open to hearing the other person's perspective.That energy is felt by the other person, and then they are so much more likely to join us on the journey to understand and figure out options. We're going to be committed to finding something that works. We're going to get there faster by remaining open and not tunneling in on our one perspective or idea or what the fix should be.PAM: I know, for me, when I first heard the advice years ago to listen to my partner, it made so much sense. So, when we were navigating a conflict, I listened. But eventually I realized I was still holding tightly to my right answer, and my listening was mostly focused on picking up the pieces that aligned with my solution, right? Everything else just kind of flew by. I truly wasn't hearing their perspective. I wasn't hearing their story. I was only taking in what I thought I could use to support my agenda or my solution, that tunnel vision that you mentioned.And unsurprisingly, we often ended up at an impasse that way. Each person trying their best to defend and convince the other that their interpretation of the situation and their proposed solution is a right one. Our conversations were energetically draining and steeped in a power dynamic that definitely strained our relationship.So, once I came to recognize what was happening, I chose to instead try to bring an open and curious mindset with me into our conversations. How are they seeing the situation? What parts of it feel important to them? What parts feel especially challenging to them? Does that make sense alongside what I know about them as a person, all the things we talked about way back in episode three that make them the unique person they are, their personality, their strengths, their weaknesses, sensitivities, all those pieces?And in these more open conversations, with defensiveness down and curiosity up, there was space for me to share my thoughts and perspectives, not with the energy that this was the solution, but as more information to consider. And without that grasping and no longer feeling like the only choices we have are their initial solution or mine, we could often find a third or a fourth or a fifth path forward right through the situation that took each of our perspectives and needs into consideration.So, it turns out that open and curious mindset not only gave me the space to learn more about what was going on, it also gave me more space to get creative in finding a solution that worked for everyone involved.The process is like a muscle that gets stronger with practice. With each experience, where shifting to being open and curious helped us creatively navigate a challenge or a conflict, it became a bit easier to shift the next time, and then the next. Over time, I found myself shifting more quickly from defending myself to trusting that we could find a way through together. Being open and curious just helps me in so many ways, in so many situations with so many people.ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. I see it in so many different ways and I feel like it's one of those tools we can cultivate that gives us something to do instead of taking things personally when we're in a conflict. And that is so key when we want to navigate those conflicts with more ease and connection.And this idea is also really important if we find ourselves stuck or with some limiting beliefs. Often this involves outside voices or some cultural constructs that maybe aren't serving us. And if we bring that open and curious mindset to it, we can start asking questions. Where are these ideas coming from? Are they serving me? Who would I be without them? What other options can I find?But we can only get there if we open up our minds beyond the parameters that are being applied to us by forces that don't know who we are or what's important to us. This allows us to start questioning these societal constructs. So, if I'm in a job that I don't love, why am I still here? What's stopping me from leaving? What would life look like if I made a different choice? How would that feel?And also things we view as "have tos". We talked about this a few episodes ago as well. We can start to question those have tos. And being open and curious allows that exploration to move us away from things that aren't serving us, the things we've just accepted even if we don't like the way they feel. "Relationships should be this," you know, "School looks like this," "Being successful looks like that."All these ideas are worth questioning, especially if we're wanting to live our best life, a life where we can truly thrive.PAM: Yeah. When we realize that we can question everything, that we can be open and curious about all the possibilities, I swear it just feels like the whole world opens up. I feel so much lighter. And it's fun that you mentioned that. One of my favorite thought experiments is to play with the opposite perspective to see how it feels, particularly when I'm feeling stuck or frustrated.So, say the story I'm telling myself is, I hate that my kid wants to play video games all the time. In my head, it's fascinating to explore the question, "Well, what if I was a person that loved that my child is excited to play video games all the time?" So, being open and curious means letting the likely immediate reaction of listing all the reasons I think that's a silly perspective just float on pass, because that's definitely not being open and curious, and then just noticing what comes up next. How would I feel in those circumstances when I saw my child happily playing?Well, I think I'd be happy too, because I like this. I'd probably have a big smile on my face.And then I was like, okay, so then what would I do? If this was something I loved and I was excited about, I'd probably join them, sitting with them, and watching them play. I'd listen attentively to what they shared. And they'd probably be really happy that I'm showing an interest in something that they really enjoy. I'd cheer with them when they beat the boss or finished the level or solved a vexing puzzle, and we'd celebrate together.So, I have that vision in my head, and then maybe it would occur to me to ask myself, so what's wrong with that? It sounds like I'd be seeing their game playing through their eyes, which definitely helps me better understand who they are. And it sounds like a very connecting thing to do, which is something that I want to do. So, when I play with that thought experiment, so often I discover that things aren't as bad as I imagined them to be on the other side. And I can ask myself, why was I holding on so tightly to my fear and judgment of the thing?It's just a great tool for me when I'm feeling stuck around what often turns out to be a conventional message that I've absorbed, that once I take some time to play with it and dig a bit deeper into it, I discover it really doesn't make so much sense to me in my life in this moment.ANNA: Exactly. And I think it's so interesting that we can find ourselves defending and enforcing ideas because we think we're supposed to, yet, when we choose to examine them, we find they don't serve us or our relationships at all. And that open and curious mindset allows us to tune into ourselves and evaluate ideas related to who we are and how we want to move through the world.Another time I use this idea a lot is when something bad happens, especially something that I might initially label as bad. Instead I can say, hmm, I wonder what's going to happen here. I wonder what's coming next. I don't have to have all the answers. I don't know all the things.So, being curious allows me to look for new directions around things that might first be considered roadblocks. I don't want to be shut down by what happens to me and around me. And the fastest way for me to avoid a spiral is to start asking questions and look at the issue with a wider lens, not jump into the judgment about it.PAM: Yeah, that makes such a big difference. When you can just know that there are other possibilities. We talked about that tunnel vision, and we can especially feel that when something is going wrong or bad around us and we can get really fixated and pulled into that. But when we can take a step back to start asking questions around it and just looking a little bit bigger picture, that really keeps the possibilities bubbling.ANNA: Right, and I think it's related to the things we've talked about with time. There's plenty of time. Because that's the other thing. You feel the expansiveness of that open curious mindset. So, when something happens, instead of locking in and the judgment, you can feel that expansiveness of, hey, I can take a few minutes to kind of look at this from the wider perspective. So, I like those inner things that we can find energy shifts, because that's what can help us move through any of these challenges, bumps, conflicts, whatever, with a little bit more ease.PAM: Exactly. The energy is the whole thing, because the energy is, is ours, but it's also the energy that we're bringing to our interactions with everybody around us. It's so helpful.ANNA: So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea of being open and curious this week. How does it feel to think about being open and curious about the people in your life? What do you discover through that lens?Number two, try being open and curious while navigating a conflict this week, rather than jumping right to the solution you have in mind, and then look at what felt different. How did that change how that conflict played out?Think about something in your life that you're feeling stuck around. What bubbles up when you approach it with openness and curiosity? What other possibilities exist that maybe you didn't see at first?And next time you're judging something your partner or child is choosing to do as bad, play with that question. Who would I be without this perspective? What would I do instead? How would that feel?So, hopefully you'll take some time to think about those questions and about what an open and curious mindset could bring to your life. And we really appreciate you listening and being here with us today, and we will see you next time.PAM: Yes! Bye.

relationships school open curious foundations childlike anna it anna oh anna so

LJ010: Stories [Foundations]

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 29, 2022 28:58

This week on the podcast, we're exploring the power of story. Humans are storytellers. We choose the stories we tell about our lives. In every situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they're all a version of the truth. But we get to choose which version resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, and then that informs our actions moving forward. Getting curious about the stories we tell can be an amazing form of self-care!We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.What stories are you holding on to about yourself, your partner, and your family?Where are the stories coming from? From your parents during your childhood? The outside voices of society? Somewhere else?Do you see the story in your self-talk? How else might you tell that story?How does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own stories?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are very happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.And in today's episode, we are going to talk about stories, both the stories we tell ourselves and the stories we assign to other people, meaning what we think they're thinking. And yes, it can get very messy.Now, this episode is a bit longer than usual, but we think it's worth it. Stories are intricately woven into our relationships with the people that we love, and that's because humans are storytelling animals. It's how we make sense of our world. In the book The Storytelling Animal, How Stories Make Us Human by Jonathan Gottschall, he wrote, "Story is for a human as water is for a fish - all encompassing and not quite palpable." I love that so much, because story truly is everywhere. And the language we choose makes a profound difference, because the stories we tell ourselves become our self-talk. That is why we want to be intentional about the language that we're using.And what's really fascinating is that for pretty much any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it and they can all make sense and all could truthfully tell the story of that situation. And the thing to realize is, we get to choose which one resonates most and feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward, which calls back to our conversation in episode seven about how every moment is a choice. Stories and choice are woven together so well, aren't they?ANNA: Oh my gosh. So much. For me, truly understanding the role of story has been so pivotal. That awareness allowed me to step back and observe, so, where's this story coming from? Does it feel real to me and who I am in this moment? Is it serving me? And if I've held onto it for a long time, why? Why have I held onto that story? And who would I be without it? That's one I love to think about. Who would I be? What would it feel like?Because there's an energetic feeling to that. What do I feel without this story that I'm telling about myself or these people in my life? And those questions really can only come about once you take off the veil and realize that everything is a story. Then I get to dive in and have these questions. And through the questioning, I can hone in on what is really working for me.And then I can start to change my story to be more reflective of me as the person I am now, the person I want to be moving forward. And I could see the role of story more clearly and use it as a tool instead of being held hostage by it, which is kind of how it felt before.And for me, like you said, language is such a big piece of that. I try to be so intentional about my language that I use, whether I'm defining some kind of big event or a very simple task in front of me, because in that language is choice. I'm developing the story that informs my day and tells others who I am. And so, that piece is so critical to me, just seeing it for what it is. And then, how do I want to create my narrative? What language do I want to use to describe it? I like thinking about it. PAM: Yeah. And once you see the scope of it, it's incredible, because it's not only the stories that we're telling ourselves, but it's understanding that the stories we're telling others about ourselves and about our lives is the picture that they're going to draw from. That's where they're going to meet us.So, first, let's look at our self-talk, at our inner voice. Sometimes we don't think we have control over our self-talk. It just appears in our head, the words over and over and over when we're spiraling over something, right? But we truly can change that over time as we make intentional changes to the language that we use and the stories we tell ourselves.It is worth taking the time to listen to our self-talk a bit more objectively, to just ask ourselves, is this a helpful story for me?ANNA: Right, because we have the self-talk, and we don't think we can change it. I think that's something I believed when I was younger. It's hard to change or we're given this story that it's hard, but I think we may assign it more importance than perhaps serves us. So, I love the idea of really diving into that, because self-talk is just an aspect of our story. It's no different. It's no more powerful. And it's not this boogeyman that it's kind of made out to be.And sometimes our self-talk is the stories that have been handed to us, perhaps by our parents or past relationships. And what's so important there is to realize that the stories they told, even if the story is about us, is their story. It's not ours and we don't have to take it in and own it. It's about them, where they were at the time, the stories that perhaps they were handed.And so, that's the thing, right? We can just keep continuing to hand down these same stories or we can take control of our own narrative. We can look at who we really are and what's actually in front of us, and then write a story that lifts us up, because that helps us be the person that we want to be and it will inform our next steps in a given situation. And I think that's what's so important about it. That's how insidious stories are. When we carry these stories from someone else, they change our energy and then they inform our next steps, and it keeps us on this same narrow path.But at any moment, we can take back the reins. We can examine the stories that we're clinging to and we can make choices because yes, Pam, it's always about choices with me. We're going to keep bringing that up.PAM: Yes. Definitely. I love the point about realizing that the stories other people are telling about us, especially the stories we grew up with, are just somebody else's perspective. It's their story. So, maybe we've absorbed the story that we're too sensitive, or we're scared to try new things, or we're very shy. That isn't our story. It's their story about us. And we get to choose our own story.Speaking of, it's also helpful to realize that goes both ways. So, for example, take a moment to consider the stories we're telling our partner about our day. Maybe we're more likely to take it as an opportunity to vent. "I am so tired," or, "So many things went wrong today." Is that what I want to convey? What will their view of my day look like from my story? Maybe that I'm so tired because I was busy having fun playing with the kids, or deep in the flow of working on a favorite project or knocking a bunch of those tasks off my to-do list.Maybe more things unusual went wrong today precisely because I was working a to-do list that was filled with those iffy jobs, and I got them done in the end. But how will they see my day through my venting words? Probably not as the ultimately satisfying day that I saw. So, understanding that the stories I tell, big and small, live on in the world reminds me to be more intentional. Now that doesn't mean not venting, but maybe prefacing it with a quick qualifier. Like, "My day was great. I just want to vent about a couple of things."It means considering who I'm speaking with and choosing my language to better convey the meaning of my story. Is what I'm saying true? Is it how I want to be seen by others? What do I need or want from the conversation? Because stories are the lifeblood of communication.ANNA: Yes. And I think it's interesting, too, thinking about that. What do I want to get from this story? Because if we do come at our partner with all the things that have happened in the day and then they come back trying to solve things and really we're like, "Wait a minute, it's just a story we're telling about how we had these tough things," you know? So, keep all that in mind. It's the lifeblood of communication. I don't think that's an overstatement. I think that's really so true.And so, keeping in mind that others will see our story through their lens, what they know, and that's okay. Understanding that helps us put their comments or reactions into perspective as well. Back to everyone is different. We see and experience the world differently.PAM: Yes. And that is absolutely a wonderful thing. We have control over our stories and what pieces we choose to share and how we choose to share. Understanding that other people come to conversations with their lens, too, so, not expecting them to fully understand what it looks like through our eyes and not even expecting them to even be curious to understand. We can't control where they are on their journey.Now, I also want to talk about the stories that we assign to other people, because so often we tend to assume the worst story. For myself and many others that I've spoken with, when we're feeling disconnected from someone or they react negatively to something we've said or done, the story we immediately tell ourselves is that we did something wrong, but often that really isn't true.It's so helpful to remember that, when we're thinking about what someone else is thinking, that is a story that we're making up. No matter how well we know them, we still don't know for sure. So don't assume that the first story that we jump to is the same story that they see. ANNA: Yes. So often, we find ourselves putting words into people's heads, and we will actually play out the scenarios till the end without the other person involved at all. "They're upset with me. I did something wrong. They don't like what I'm doing," whatever the words were saying. Even, "They're trying to hurt me. Their actions are intentional towards me." So often, we get that very wrong. We really don't know what's happening in another person's head.I have a friend that will honestly just create entire movies and the challenge with that is, it doesn't leave room for anything else. Once you've created a story for someone, you start acting from that place with that energy. So, if you've ever had one of those dreams where it's so real, your partner has done something terrible and really upset you, and you wake up and you're still super mad and they're going like, "What is happening? I just woke up. I don't know what you're talking about!"But it's the same when we create a story. We can buy into that energy and bring that energy to the person and they have no idea where it's coming from. But instead, if we can first assume positive intent, second, we can ask questions and leave space and remain open, then the person's free to share what they're actually feeling. And so often, it does not come close to the stories that we're making up.So, I have a friend and a while back, she shared a story and she didn't share it as a story. She shared it as a fact. She said that her husband didn't find her attractive. And she said, "He actively avoids even touching me when we walk each other past each other in the hall." And I was like, "Oh, wow. Have you talked to him about that?" And she was like, "Well, no." And then when she did, she found the complete opposite was true. He was trying to be respectful of her space. So, he felt by moving aside in the hall, he was showing respect for her space and honoring her.And so, then they had this conversation around what would feel good to each other and how they want to move forward. And it's very different now. But she had been telling that story for years and he had no idea. That's just how insidious these stories are. And I think it's just really worth examining the stories that we put on others, even when we feel it's justified, even if we think we know them so well, even if we've held onto these stories for years. Conversations are so important. Being open and curious. Leave space for people to tell us who they are. Pre-writing a detailed story does not.You can feel that closed energy when you come in with this pre-populated story and it's so disconnecting. Even some light inquiry can shed light on what's really going on and give space for each person to share their perspective. And then we can understand where the communication broke down in the first place and why maybe we're seeing it differently, but that won't happen if we stay in our head creating stories. That will only happen with that choice of connection and that choice to have some conversations.PAM: Yeah, sometimes I can get stuck in a really negative story about someone else, and I just don't feel confident enough to ask about it yet or bring it up. But when that happens, I found it helpful to just remind myself that it's a story and then start to play with that. How else might this story go? What about this? Does that fit? Maybe this? So, once I think of a few other things, even if they seem outlandish to me right now, I realize that there isn't just one possible story. It wasn't just the one thing that I was clinging to and being upset about. That lightens things up for me.And usually, when I'm feeling lighter, now I can get curious. Which one is it? I want to know now. And then usually I can get to the space, the energy, where it doesn't feel so heavy and I can actually bring up the conversation with them. I can actually go, "Hey, what about this? What did that feel like to you?"On the flip side, moving through that process over and over helped me realize that I really don't know what's going on in another person's life that has led them to make whatever choice it is that they made. That's their story, their truth. That's been a very helpful discovery on my journey around stories, just that realization that these are stories. My story, their story, it's their truth in the moment. And that is just enough. I can be curious then. It reminds me that there are multiple ways that things can go.ANNA: Right. And there are just always more layers, I think, to peel back on our stories, which kind of leads nicely to this last bit we wanted to talk about. We get to choose the stories we tell. And we touched on this back a bit back in the choices episode, but I want to bring it up again. We choose the stories we tell about the big things like our childhood and the little things like the grocery store. And in every situation, there are things that are easier and harder, that work or don't work. But we can choose to focus on those aspects that make sense and feel better to us.For any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they all make sense in the context of the activity, the situation, the people involved, and they can all truthfully tell the story. But now, we get to choose which one resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward. That's the power of story. PAM: Right. Especially in more challenging situations, it's so valuable to take a moment to not just jump in with the first story that comes to mind, which is usually fear-based. And it's usually the worst one, the worst interpretation of things. And if we just stick with that one, we can get tunnel vision and start spiraling downward in our fears. We can get really stuck there if we only see this one worst interpretation of the situation in front.So, instead, take that moment to come up with a few more stories that align with the situation. If we don't take the time to consider other stories, we're not really making a meaningful choice moving forward, are we? You can't choose between one thing. And choosing more positive stories, ones that feel better to us, isn't about avoiding the truth, because the different stories all incorporate the facts. But for me, choosing the more positive story is really a form of self-care.Instead of telling myself over and over the versions that make me feel bad, that weigh me down, that pull me into that tunnel vision, I can tell myself the versions of the story that both make sense and feel better. Because from there, I'm in a more open and curious and receptive mindset, a place where I can now see more opportunities. I can be more creative in choosing my next step and my next moment is truly better. And I find myself then starting to spiral upwards, moving through it, rather than spiraling down and crashing and just feeling crushed.ANNA: And getting stuck! So, my oldest daughter and I talked about this so many times over the years, because she is a master storyteller. And, I mean, it's a gift. It is a gift that she has and it is amazing. But sometimes, it gets the better of her, because sometimes she can spin this really intricate story about someone else or about a situation, and it ends up making her feel terrible. But in the end, it's just a story. We're making it up in our heads.And I think once I realized that, I decided, if I'm going to make up a story, I'm going to make up a story that feels good, one that helps me feel connected, that helps me move forward as the person I want to be, which is exactly what you're talking about.So, I want to examine if my story spirals me into a place of being stuck, or if my story is lifting me. I may not understand all the pieces, but I can feel okay about the situation if I look at it this way, and that helps me move forward as the person I want to be. And like we've talked about before, there are situations sometimes where I can get some clarifying information so that I can get a more accurate picture, because maybe there's someone else involved and I can stop putting words in their mouth and actually figure it out.But other times, like you said, it really isn't even possible. When it's not possible, I just always want to choose the story that feels better, because it's just as likely to be true as the one that doesn't. And so, I'm just wasting the time in this moment feeling bad about something when I really don't even know the full story. And so, that's why I love that you tied it into self-care, because that's exactly what it is. It really is just this intentional choice to look at what's in front of me and find a story that feels good.And again, it's not about pushing the other things aside. It's not about pretending that things didn't happen or changing the story. It's just intentionally using language that makes me feel good about what's happening around me. So, for me, if it's a particularly challenging or difficult situation, it's not about pretending that the difficult situation didn't happen, but I look for, how have I moved through it? Look at the amazing support I've received from the people around me. Look at how loved I am because they've helped me through this situation. Look at what I've learned about myself from it.Whatever the situation, I can always find a way to frame it to use what can be a challenging situation to make myself feel better and to move forward from there. And so, that's also an empowerment piece, knowing that I can turn these situations that can completely derail me into situations that just boost me forward and allow me to be around the people that I love and to connect with the people that lift me up.PAM: Yes. And another layer that I think would be helpful for people to peel back, and I am still peeling this layer back, but, why is our tendency to take on that weight? Why does it feel like the more positive spin or the silver lining is it cheat? It really is not. And we can do that work to peel back those layers and to realize that these are all stories, they are all versions of the truth. They could absolutely all be true.ANNA: And I think this part is related to the stories handed to us by society. Things like, life is suffering. Only hard work pays off. Relationships are hard. And so, when you find this cheat, you're like, "Wait a minute. Maybe it doesn't have to be this hard. Maybe I can be enjoying it," but then you might try to stop yourself. Like, "What? But we've been told that forever!"But no, set that aside, because we don't have to make situations more difficult. There's going to be plenty of things in life to work through, but when you can find joy, when you can switch that focus, see the light, find the gifts in the situation, life is just so much more enjoyable. But we do have to shed some of those stories from society, some of those stories from even other people in our lives, in order to create what feels good for us.PAM: Yeah, I love that. I mean, "Life is hard." Don't we hear that all the time? But then, if we tell a different story, the reaction can often be like, "Well, you're a Pollyanna. You're not seeing the truth." Another story. Right? It is just so useful to work through all of that.Now, you and I have both heard, "You guys are always so positive," and people think it's weird at first, which is okay, because it's part of the process of peeling back those layers and understanding that our stories are ours to tell and there's more than one way to tell the story. We don't always have to take the negative, life-is-hard bent on it. ANNA: Right. And the reason I'm telling the story is for me. It's not to put on a show or make anything look different for somebody else from the outside. It's because it helps me be the person I want to be.It helps me in my relationships. I remember one time somebody said to me, "I get it now. I get that you're not just a Pollyanna about life. It's that it helps you have these relationships. It helps you move through these situations." And I'm like, "Yes, that's absolutely it." I'm not thinking about anybody else's reaction to me choosing joy or finding light in a moment, because that's my internal work.Now, I'm understanding that it can come across that way as people are listening to it, but I'm like, "Oh, no, no, no. This is just a tool." It's a tool that helps me connect with people. It helps me move through my days in a way that feels better to me. And it's just a choice. And I think if somebody wants to play around with it, they can see how it feels for them, too.PAM: Exactly. Exactly. And I find it helps me be more creative. It helps me come up with more possibilities. And that's the thing. You can try it out for a while and you see how it goes. And I do suspect you'll start to see things that wouldn't have happened in the other mindset.ANNA: Yeah, it's really true. And I do think it's so interesting and we definitely get feedback about that.I mean, I definitely get that. "You're always looking on the bright side!" And I'm like, I feel all the things, but it's just, again, those stories we create, it impacts how we move forward. It impacts how we see all the things around us.So, let's talk about some questions you might want to ponder for this week as you explore the idea of stories. First, what story are you holding onto about yourself, your partner, and your family? And that's a lot. So, that one may take a few minutes, because we have stories that have been handed us from childhood and on. So, there's a lot of stories there.Where are the stories coming from, from your parents during childhood, from outside voices of society, somewhere else? Identifying where, I think, is so key to realizing and taking your power back there, to realize, I don't need to own their story. That story's not about me at all.And so, do you see the story in your self-talk and how else might you tell that story? Self-talk again, it's kind of this bugaboo that we're unsure about. How do we change it? But I think the first step, don't you think, is just identifying it, just recognizing it as a story.PAM: Yes. Recognizing it as a story and, like in the previous question, where did that story come from? Is it really my story or is it something that I've absorbed over the years? It's someone else's view that I've adopted because they can really feel like that's our story, That's our self-talk, because we should be more productive, we should be efficient. "I should be able to do this quickly," or, "I shouldn't be so sensitive." There are just so many stories that we've absorbed over time that are really somebody else's view. And to check in and start asking ourselves and see, well, does that make sense to me? Do I feel sensitive all the time? What's wrong with being sensitive? There are just so many questions and layers do with that.ANNA: And you know I love, who would I be without that story? So, feel that. Who would I be without telling that story about I'm so sensitive or I can't get anything done whatever the thing is that people have handed to us. So, yeah, so interesting.And finally, how does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own story? And so, I think it, I think that may take a minute, because it's just realizing, Okay, do I get to write it? Because I think, again, some people think it's a cheat. But it's like, no, you really do. You really get to pick the things that you like and craft that as your own personal story, even when there's tragedy, even when there are bad things that have happened. There are things to look at that we can just say, yeah, but this is who I want to be and this is how I went through those tough times, and this is what was surrounding me during that. And so, that we can hold onto that part of the story as well.PAM: Yeah, and I think that's one of the big things that I want to share with people is that these are true moments. This isn't stuff that we're making up. We're not saying, ignore all this hard stuff that's going on around you.It's, as you said, a tool that can be helpful in moving through those seasons, moving through those emergency moments, all those pieces. For me, it is so incredibly helpful for me to move out of that fight or flight tunnel, which can be super helpful in the moment. But we get stuck there so easily. This is a tool that really helps me move through that. I just find it's become such a useful tool, because I know I'm more creative on the other side. I move through things with more grace and just more compassion and kindness for other people that are involved when I can help myself with this tool move beyond that tunnel vision and the that whole fight flight emergency response when things go wrong. That's helped me.ANNA: It will be fun to see what people bring up about stories. So, thank you so much for listening and we hope to see you next time. So, take care. Bye-bye.PAM: Bye, everyone.

relationships stories conversations speaking story humans identifying foundations jonathan gottschall anna it anna yeah anna oh

LJ009: Polarizing Paradigms [Foundations]

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 15, 2022 24:51

Let's dive into black and white thinking. While it's common to see things through the lens of right and wrong or good and bad and to look for someone or something to blame, these polarizing paradigms are damaging to relationships. Real relationships and real life are more nuanced. They exist in the gray area. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.How does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you? Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand?How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don't see it the same way? Have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love?How would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and dig into the gray with the people in your life?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Thanks for tuning in to explore relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.So, in today's episode, we're going to talk about moving beyond polarizing paradigms. Right/wrong, good/bad, blame/fault. These are all paradigms and it's pretty interesting when you start exploring if they are serving us or hindering us in our relationships with others.So, I love teasing apart the ideas of right and wrong, because on the surface, it seems like a simple and very useful concept. And I think it can be when it's applied to our own personal journey. What feels right to me? What doesn't feel right? How do I want to act in the world? Who is the person I want to be in the world?It's when we start to try to impose our ideas of right or wrong or act as if there's one definition, one definitive definition, that it really just stops learning. Standing staunchly in what could feel like a very justifiable position stops learning. Instead, we can ask, why does someone have a certain belief or act in a certain way? Why do some people agree with it and others don't? How can we move beyond that thought to start looking at the people involved?And even more importantly, looking at the needs behind the behavior. What's driving the behavior? What's driving the action? And as we lean into that, we learn more about the person and perhaps gain new insights into the whole situation, insights we wouldn't have seen had we stayed stuck in our position of there's one right way.And so, when we just look at behavior and judge it as right and wrong, we're losing this chance to connect with the person in front of us, be that person, our child, a friend, our partner. We're losing our chance to understand their motivation and the need behind it. And it's in that place of refraining from judgment that we can choose connection and understanding. If the behavior is impacting us, I guarantee you the fastest way to stop it while still remaining connected is to address that underlying need. Because once the need is addressed, the offending behavior no longer serves a purpose and it just falls away.PAM: Yes. Judging another person's behavior is so often disconnecting, and that's precisely because it's a surface level perspective. Digging in to find the underlying need they are trying to address with that behavior hits so many more connecting notes between us.We learn more about them. They feel more seen and heard. The challenging behavior fades. And there's much less need for any relationship repair at the end of it all.And another situation where the idea of right and wrong can cause upset in relationships is in how someone else chooses to do something. So, beyond behavior, is there really a right way to pack the dishwasher?ANNA: Maybe!PAM: Or to fold clothes or to play with a toy? Surely there are ways that are right for us. We absolutely have our preferences, but we can take that too far when we expect others to do things the same way that we do. It's like when we expand "right for us" to mean "right period."Of course, sometimes those other ways just kind of grate on us, like utensils the wrong way up in the dishwasher. I have found it helpful in those moments to remind myself that the way they are doing it probably feels just as right to them as my way feels to me. That is always such a good reminder. I still use it all the time, just as a way to process.And I also sometimes ask myself, well, if I believe that my way really is the best way, am I willing then to be the one who does the task? Or might I instead choose to be just grateful that someone else has done it? Either of those choices is more connecting in a relationship than trying to control another person's actions. The relationship is my lens. It's my priority. I'm also going to bring those considerations into my self-talk, into what I'm thinking about the situation or the rub that's happening.ANNA: And then it boils down to choices, too. Am I going to choose this dishwasher being loaded this way versus this relationship? Am I going to put that above? And so, I think it's just really interesting to play with those ideas and really walk yourself through it, versus when we get stuck in that, "No, this is the way," we have this shrapnel that has injured lots of people around us from that.But it's kind of the same, too, with the ideas of good and bad. So, again, that boils down to a judgment, often a snap judgment, of how something or someone fits into our ideas of how things should be. But we're talking about humans here. As we've discussed before, humans are complex. They are different. And they absolutely resist fitting neatly into boxes.So, if we go back to behavior and we label it as good or bad, we again lose sight of the need that they're trying to meet. And we do it a lot with children. "You're a good boy if you're doing this thing I want you to do, and a bad boy if not." So, you're a good boy if you're sitting still and being quiet and a bad boy if you're fidgeting and making noise. But what if your whole body is telling you to move? What if you've been sitting for hours and you just can't do it anymore?If instead we look at the need, we don't have to judge the person. We can help them figure out how to meet the need or to see if the environment is not the best place for them right now. And what that does is develop a person who doesn't see themselves as good or bad based on outside opinions, but a person who can listen to their body, state their needs, and find solutions that work in the environments that they're in.PAM: Yeah. And for me, this, this whole area, it was a realization that people really are different, as we talked about in episode three, and I love that it keeps coming up in most episodes. That realization helped me ease up on judging other people through my personal lens of good and bad. I could see the choices that felt good to me didn't necessarily feel good to others. And if I wanted to understand their perspective, I needed to learn more about what was going on.And when I have relationships as my priority, I really do want to understand them better. These are my loved ones. These are the people I choose to have in my life. I really do want to understand them better. And I want to help them process through whatever is feeling off for them, finding solutions that feel good to them.Again, in the context of those deeper connected relationships, the framework of good and bad is surface level and limiting. The real world is so much richer and messier all at the same time.ANNA: So, much richer, so much messier. And like you said, that's where the learning is, though. Sticking to cut-and-dry, one-right-way answers just shuts down learning and connection.Another thing we do is we tend to judge situations as good or bad. And so, I'm just going to pop in a quick paraphrase of the Taoist farmer story who says that maybe might be a more useful idea? And so, to paraphrase, the farmer's son lets out their one horse. The village says, "What bad luck!" "Maybe," says the farmer. The horse returns with the herd of other horses. "What good luck!" they say. "Maybe," says the farmer. The son breaks his leg working with one of the new horses. "What bad luck," they say again. "Maybe," says the farmer. The army comes to the neighborhood to conscript the young men. His son isn't taken because of the broken leg.So, life is filled with events. If we spend our time judging each one as it comes along, we take ourselves out of the moment. We don't know how things will unfold, so let's just face what's in front of us without judgment. That keeps fear out of the equation. It keeps us squarely in the moment, and that is the only thing that we have control over anyway.PAM: I love that point. When we're judging all the things that are happening around us, that thinking takes us into our heads and it takes us out of the moment. And the other piece is, we lose our sense of flow, not literally flow moment to moment per se. But as the story tells us, flow over time. Things in the world are connected. That is another thing that culturally, we stumble around. We're very much, "Here's the thing in front of me today, going to do it efficiently, productively, it's done, good, bad, however," and then just move on to the next thing.But there is a thread that connects so many moments over time and it's so interesting just to keep that lens. It helps us realize we don't need to judge all the things, because maybe it might be helpful along the way.ANNA: And for me, that thread is really a trust in the unfolding, that I may not see it all now, but there's a thread and it's unfolding and I don't want to be judging each thing as good or bad, because I feel like it derails. And I just want to trust in that unfolding.I think it's important to realize that when we're judging other people or their actions, we're missing this opportunity for deeper understanding. And what usually ends up being a pretty thinly-veiled ploy for control, often, when we're judging. I think it's important to look at that for a minute, because when we're judging someone's action, what is our goal? What do we want to happen? Do we think it will help our relationship? Do we think it'll change what they're doing? Maybe. But how will that feel?And so, then to flip it around, how does it feel when someone's judging us? Does it make us feel closer to that person? Does it make us want to change our behavior? Most likely, it makes us want to pull away or double down, even if it might not serve us. Judgment really has no place in our relationships. In its place, though, we can use inquiry. We can have this genuine openness and desire to understand, because like you said, these are our most important relationships. I want to understand them. I want to know what makes them tick. I want them to feel good about how we're moving forward.That keeps us connected as we learn more about each other. And it also allows a place where our concerns or ideas can be met with curiosity and not defensiveness on both sides, because that's the environment that we're cultivating.PAM: Yes. Because judgment really is all about us, right? ANNA: Oh yeah.PAM: It is about how we're seeing, what we want to happen. But a connected and loving relationship is about both people. I also love and often use the thought experiment of flipping things around to see how I would feel if I was on the receiving end of things, because it doesn't feel good to be judged. And I notice that my defensiveness rises, leaving me with little space to consider changing things up and learning something new. "No, I'm going to defend this. I'm going to hold on maybe even longer than I would normally if I wasn't feeling judged."I am much more apt to be open and curious when someone approaches me with information without that side dish of judgment. As you mentioned, that just feels so much less controlling. It feels like we're on the same team. We're going to try and figure this out. You just brought me some new information. And you gave me this space to like hear it, bring it in, and see if it makes sense to me. It's not controlling anymore.ANNA: Right. Exactly. Now you're open, you're curious, you're learning, you're both learning, and how different is that? You can learn from each other. I think when we're feeling judged, it really puts up a wall to what they're saying. What they're saying might be helpful, but not when it's delivered with that side dish of judgment. We're not even going to hear it.And so, again, these are our most important people. We want to stay connected. So, yeah, just so important to keep in mind.Okay. So, the blame/fault matrix is another paradigm that is so common in our culture. It's really easy and at times comforting to lay that blame on someone else. If you didn't do this, think like that, act like this, X wouldn't have happened. The problem is, when we focus on blame, we never look at our role and we never dig deeper into the whole situation. We're never getting to that underlying need on either of our parts.And blaming is just a surefire way to create a rupture in a relationship. No one wants the finger pointed at them. It makes us feel that this love that we have is conditional. If you don't way behave the way I think is good or right, I'm going to blame you for things that have happened. I'm going to withdraw my love potentially. And again, it's just that judgment and blame. It just creates craters in relationships. I believe ruptures can be healed and that a repair is super important, but we don't need to just keep creating them. Let's just try not to keep creating them!PAM: Absolutely. That is an important part of a relationship, the repair, because things aren't always going to go smoothly, but we don't need to keep setting ourselves up for these challenges. It's just so fascinating to think about how urgently people look around to find someone to blame when something goes awry.We all want to. "It's not my fault. It's not my fault. No, no, no." And how often once we find someone to blame, that's the end of it. We want to move on. It's not really surprising then when it keeps happening over and over, because we're not really learning anything that we can bring forward with us for the next time.Instead, when we approach the situation with the energy that we're all on the same team, we can empathize with our partner or our child or friend about the upset. Because chances are, they aren't particularly happy about it either. We can listen to them, support them as they process things, and brainstorm with them about different things they might try next time. So, just think about how you'd like others to help and support you when something you do goes sideways. And just try that. How would it feel for me if someone did this? Well, let me try doing that for someone else when things go sideways with something they've done or said.ANNA: Oh my gosh. We all just want to be held in those times when things go sideways. We just want to be understood at least, or have somebody not pointing the finger at us, because we know what we've done half the time. You know what I mean? We don't need that outside judgment. We really just need somebody that's like, "Hey, where do you want to go from here? What can we do next? How can we fix this? What can we do?"And so, it's just such a different energy to bring and I think especially because we're talking about our most important relationships, it's just worth that work to find that kindness and compassion. So, yeah, so important.So, for me, all the things that we've talked about today and lots more out there, fall into the idea of black and white thinking and life and for sure relationships are lived in the gray and I really feel like so much suffering and so many relationship issues boil down to this black and white, right and wrong thinking. There's not one right way to do or be. There just isn't.We make the choices we make in each moment based upon all kinds of factors, including very changeable things like how much sleep have I had, or food. Understanding the context of the moments, the needs of the individuals involved, and cultivating that open and curious mindset allows us to learn and to grow. We can develop deeper relationships, because they're based on the understanding that we're doing the best we can in each moment, and that our behaviors are trying to meet a need.So, when judgment is set aside, we can look at all the factors that make up the context and keep connection at the forefront. We can talk about our needs and the impact something is having on us with an eye to understanding one another and to work together to find solutions that feel good to us both. So, I decided to look up antonyms of "polarizing" when we were naming this episode and their unification, connection, and attachment. And I thought, oh yeah, that really sums it up, why I choose to let go of paradigms that don't serve me in my relationships, why I choose to remain open and curious. Because being connected in meaningful ways to the important people in my life is my highest priority.PAM: Yes. I think when we see polarizing ideas, things that divide people into two opposing groups, like right and wrong or good and bad, that is a great clue to dig deeper. Things are rarely that simple, especially when it comes to relationships with the people we love. As you said, Anna, life is lived between those two poles, in the gray. And while sometimes that can definitely feel more nebulous, it is also, as we've mentioned, so much richer and it's more connected with the real human beings that we're choosing to be in relationship with. Celebrate the gray.ANNA: Absolutely. Okay, so let's talk about a few questions for pondering this week.So, how does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you? I think it's just always good to flip this around. So, just how does it feel? Because we've all had it happen. So, how does that feel?Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand? And I think there's lots of times now where we have these polarizing beliefs that happen. What would it feel like to let go of the rightness of your position and just lean in to try to understand where that person's coming from?PAM: I want to bring back, how you mentioned open and curious, and I love how that helps us here. Letting go of feeling right isn't about replacing it with, "I'm wrong."ANNA: Right. Or changing your mind at all.PAM: Exactly. It's more expansive. It's bigger. It's about being open and curious to see how else other people are seeing things or feeling about things.ANNA: We just learn more. Again, it may not change our opinion, but maybe it gives us more information about the situation. Or maybe it's the "through their eyes" that we've talked about, too. We see why they got there, because their life is different than ours. Their experiences are different.So, letting go of that strong-held "right" just opens up. Again, it doesn't mean it's going to change your opinion necessarily, but I think it will give you a lot more information about the people around you. So, number three. How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don't see it the same way. So, that can just give you some good clues about how blaming at any time never feels good, no matter what. If the person thinks that they're very right, that blaming just doesn't feel good.And number four, have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love? And so, I think that's really good to dig in. And I would say if you have children, really look at that, too, because I think we do tend to lean into judging children about how they're spending their time or what they're doing and how that is impacting the relationship. But you'll also see it with your partners and friends and extended family. So, where's judgment coming into play? See where it's coming at you, see where you're putting it out there, and think about what it would feel like if you could let that go.PAM: I think that will be a huge one, too. Because even if we're not sharing our judgements. Maybe we take that first step, okay. I didn't say it. At that point, we could start to notice that we may still have an energy about it. We may still be bringing that piece. And most people can sense that, children can sense that.ANNA: For sure.PAM: People can sense when we are bringing a judging energy. And our questions, they feel less open and curious and more pointed when we're asking questions.ANNA: Right. And we're less willing to even talk about it. I think we're less willing to even share our perspectives with people when we feel that judgment coming at us. So, think about that in reverse with people. Why are they telling me this? Because, well, if they're sensing judgment, that may be stopping that conversation right there.PAM: Because you don't want to be giving them evidence is what it feels like.ANNA: Exactly. Right. Because you know they're sitting there waiting for like, what can I judge you about the situation? So, yeah, that's not the energy we want with these people that we love. That's not at all. And it's absolutely something we can change, even if it's something we've done historically, we can absolutely change it.And part of it would be this. So, number five, how would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and really dig into the gray with the people in your life, to trust that they're doing things for reasons that make sense to them and learning more about them, letting go of these really strong polarizing paradigms?So, I think it will be interesting to steep in that for a little bit and see where it's impacting your relationships and how that could possibly be different. PAM: I think that can be just such a fundamental mindset shift and it's internal. It's something that we can completely just play with ourselves for the first while.ANNA: We don't have to make any declarations. We could just play around with it. How does it feel and, "Okay, yeah. I do like the way it feels to just be more open and to not be judging everyone around me." And I remember someone in my life before telling me that she found her judgements of everyone else was because she was so harshly judging herself. And so, once she could get to that place of not harshly judging herself, she had no need or desire to judge the people around her. And so, that's another piece to kind of turn around and look at as well.So, we hope that everyone is enjoying their holiday season and hopefully some of the ideas we've been discussing will even make those big family gatherings a bit more enjoyable. Thank you so much for listening, and we will be back in two weeks. Take care. Bye!PAM: Bye!

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LJ007: Every Moment is a Choice [Foundations]

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 1, 2022 19:31

This week on the podcast, we're exploring the choices that we have in every moment. It's common in our culture to look at our lives in terms of "have-tos," but staying in that space takes away our agency and our joy. By getting curious about our have-tos, we can figure out what is really important to us and play with ways to make the things we do more enjoyable. And in difficult moments, when it really feels like terrible things are happening to us, we still have the choice of how to respond, what story we tell about our situation, and what energy we bring to it. Realizing how much choice we have can be so empowering!We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.Do you find yourself saying “I have to” a lot? Can you find any patterns around when you see it happening more frequently?How does it feel to think about having choices in each moment? What helps you find your center when moving through a challenge? What choices do you see around the stories you are currently telling about your life?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hi, and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We're happy you're here and interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.In today's episode, we're going to talk about choice. I love talking about and grounding ourselves in choice, because life is filled with choices from the mundane to the epic. And for the most part, it's an invisible process. We're making decisions on the fly throughout the day. Other decisions are made with a lot of deliberation and forethought and take a lot of time, but the ability to choose is something that empowers us. The knowledge that, no matter what, we have a choice.PAM: Right, and that is so surprisingly easy to forget in the moment. I can find myself moving through parts of my day almost by rote, and sometimes that means I'm in the flow of things, feeling good and accomplishing things I want and choose to do. And other times things start to rub.When I start hearing myself say, "Oh, I have to do this," that feeling that I don't have a choice is a good clue that I'm probably feeling a bit overstretched or under-resourced, and it's a great clue to step back, take a breath, and just take a moment to look around a bit.It's so easy to fall into the "I have to" trap, because it is used so much in our culture. The phrase "I have to," or, "You have to," has become so commonplace that we've mostly stopped questioning it altogether. It just seeps into our everyday language. We say we have to go to the store, we have to brush our teeth, we have to go to bed, and so many more things. And soon, we start to believe that we have to do all the things, that we don't have a choice, that we are, in fact, prisoners to a long list of have to's.And not only that, when we come to feel that we don't have choices and buy into this whole "have to" ethos, it's usually not long before we start to feel pulled to impose them on others. "This has to be done and you have to help," which then can lead to judging others around the things we think they have to do. Like, "Why aren't they doing this thing I don't want to do, but have to do?" It is so disempowering and disconnecting.So, taking a moment to look at a situation, any situation, even small everyday ones, and noticing that choices actually exist helps us let go of that overwhelming feeling of being trapped in our days. It reminds us that we have agency. We can use phrases like, "I have to," or, "You have to," as red flags, signs that it's a good time to step back and see where we're feeling pinched, where we're feeling controlled, because definitely those things can sneak up on us bit by bit.And then, we can dig deeper to identify our underlying needs, find the choices in the soil of the have to's and shift things up to meet our needs in ways that don't include controlling others or even using control tactics on ourselves. Realizing that I always have choices has been such a freeing and empowering mindset shift for me. It's just been amazing.ANNA: Oh my gosh. For me, too. It's been such a critical part. The shift from feeling like life is happening to me, to understanding my agency and navigating this thing called life. It's funny, I have a good friend whose husband does not buy into this idea at all. So, he believes, “There aren't always choices, Anna,” but I find it so interesting.And one of the examples he used was, “Well, we have to do the animal chores in the morning.” So, they have a small farm, donkeys, goats, chickens. And here's the thing. They don't have to do that. They could choose to re-home the animals. They could skip the morning chores or do them later. I know the lap of luxury these animals live in and they would be just fine. They could also hire someone to do the chores for them.There's always a choice and with each choice, we hone in on our priorities. They don't want to re-home the animals. They love them. They love bringing the special treats in the morning and moving the donkeys to the track to watch them play and run. They don't have to do those things. They want to. And maybe they decide it's not worth the money to pay someone else, or in that choice, they realize that they actually enjoy it and might miss it and don't want someone else doing it for them.And so, then it's like, okay, so if we're feeling pinched about time, in that exploration, they might find they'd rather free up time in another way, adjusting something they don't enjoy as much. What a different feeling than to feel we're held hostage by an obligation. And maybe it's just semantics and energy, but I really think it's worth examining our language about any of these have to's and deciding if that language is serving us.Is it helping us find joy? Is it helping us enjoy the things around us? Could examining it as a choice help us understand what we actually want to do and how we want to spend our time and resources?PAM: Yes. I think what can happen over time is that we make a choice and then it's new and exciting.We relish it. It's fun. And then, over time, we shortcut our language down to, "I have to."For me, it feels like as the activity becomes more commonplace in my days, "Every morning I've got to go take care of the animals," my internal language becomes more efficient. "I have to take out the animals, I have to take the dogs out," all the all the things. "I have to go grocery shopping, I have to clean the bathrooms."And I think the word obligation is a great way to describe that feeling and the growing weight of it. And I think we can naturally start to resist that obligation and maybe even start to resent it. So, if our internal "have to" language doesn't catch our attention, eventually that growing weight of obligation or resentment definitely might. So, time to dig in and see what's in there. What's the rub?And what's so interesting is so often digging in helped me remember my why. So, you had that wonderful example about the animals. I'm going to take a quick moment to look at cleaning bathrooms, because it is a very basic example. But to give you an idea of ways to dig into those festering feelings.So, I can remind myself that I enjoy the feeling of walking into a clean bathroom. If I realize that's even feeling a bit stale for me, I can start there. So, maybe I choose to spruce up the bathroom a bit, bringing in a plant or two, or some art for the walls. Maybe I print out an inspirational quote or two that makes me smile, or a couple of pictures that make me laugh and I tape them to the mirror. How can I more enjoy walking into this mostly utilitarian room?I find that is such a fun way to look at things. It's like, cleaning the bathroom, what do you mean decorating it or whatever? But that is a wonderful aspect to look at, too.I can also contemplate the cleaning schedule that I'm holding myself to. There are no bathroom police that are going to come and arrest me if I don't stick to it. So, what if I change that up, extending the period between deep cleans? How does that feel? I can try it out and see. That's something you can always play with and is likely to change over time, depending as the number of people rise and fall.So, just because we've done it weekly for years doesn't mean it has to be weekly forever more. That frequency may well change over the seasons of our lives.And we can look at the how. How can I make it easier for me to slip into cleaning? Can I keep the cleaning supplies in the bathroom ready to grab quickly? That may mean having more supplies up front, but they each last longer, because they're only being used in one bathroom. So, it works itself out. Can I make the process itself more enjoyable? I often put on my headphones and listen to podcasts or sometimes upbeat music to help my body get moving. Or we could also choose to pay for cleaning service if that's an option. There are just so many possibilities.So, after taking some time to dig in and discover what's really rubbing for me, so often, I still do the thing. I clean the bathrooms. But my internal language is much different now, because I remembered how much choice and agency I have. It may not be the most fun I'll have all day, but I remember why I want to do it and I've made the process more pleasurable, particularly the bits of the process that were rubbing me the wrong way. My internal language is lighter. Maybe even, "I want to clean the bathrooms today," rather than that obligatory weight of, "I have to."It's so fascinating to see that we can find choice even in the most mundane bits and pieces of life.ANNA: And just how different it feels when we do. I mean, those choices all along the way. And I think the money piece that I talked about is a really interesting way to check in. So, do I want to pay somebody to do this? Does it have that value or is it not that big of a deal? Is my time more valuable there?It's playing with it, asking questions that we talk so much about. It just opens up instead of getting stuck in the weight of the have to's. So, yeah, I love that, because again, I just really think it helps us hone in on our priorities and get back to that why, like you said, and then we know, okay, I got these animals for a reason and I like having a clean bathroom and that's why I'm doing it for me. Whatever those things are, getting back to that why.PAM: Yeah. And I love that priority piece. That was episode number one, because that is so foundational, playing around with our priorities and the time that we've got, the things that we want to do. We can always bring it back there to realize that we have choices with all the things that we think are on our plate.ANNA: Yes. And it just really changes things. But I do want to talk about times when it feels like there really is no choice, that life has happened to us. There's a tragedy, a death, a loss of something that's out of our control, because that's going to happen to all of us. It's certainly happened to me and realizing I still had the choice of how I react made all the difference in moving through those difficult events. No, I couldn't change the fact that the job was lost or the injury happened, but I could decide how I was going to let that impact my mood, how I was feeling, and how I wanted to move through the world.So, for me, that helped me to put things into perspective and to feel again, that life wasn't just happening to me. I've had some pretty difficult things happen to me over the years. We all have, but the times I'm able to ground back into who I want to be, how I want to learn from what's happening around me, and how I want to find joy, even in the darkest moments, those were the times that I moved through the events with the most ease. It's not easy necessarily, but with more ease than when I was fighting and bucking against the reality of what was happening.And, for me, gratitude was a big part of that. Finding those little spots of gratitude is a choice, and I found that I could find them even in the darkest of days. And with that choice, that first move towards looking for the tiny points of light, the shifts would start and new ways forward would present themselves.PAM: Yes, definitely. Things happen in our lives that are out of our control. Times where we find ourselves just reacting to things. It can feel like our life has come to a standstill with this big thing. And for a time, that can definitely be helpful, because it needs immediate attention, right? Yet moving through these challenging events often takes time and staying stuck in that emergency mode can have its consequences.So, for me, once the initial shock and overwhelm began to ease a bit, I found it helpful to gently remind myself to come back to the present whenever I noticed myself getting stuck in my head with my swirling thoughts. Because in the present, I slowly began to notice those bits and pieces of life that are happening around me. Those spots of gratitude, as you mentioned, Anna, even small ones, like how the light comes through the window, a moment of connection with my child that makes me smile. Continuing to bring myself to the present, soon I was open enough to start to see more possibilities, new ways forward that I couldn't see when I was like stuck in tunnel vision. I began to see choices.ANNA: Yes. And that's what it's all about, finding our way to just seeing the choice in the moments. And so, this leads to another area where our choices influence our perspective. And it's an area where we often give away our powers. And it's, we tell our own stories. We're the creators, we're the writers, we're the orators of these stories of our lives.And digging into stories is so important to us that we're going to do an entire episode on it in a couple weeks, but I think it's worth talking about it right now in this context of choice and seeing how it's playing out in our days, because our stories have a way of defining us for ourselves and for others. For ourselves, they become this sort of self-talk. If that talk is negative and full of worry and distress, then we can become that. If that talk is positive and full of joy and gratitude, then we become that. We start to embody it.For others, it colors the way they see us. They trust that our story is our truth. And if that truth is steeped in frustration and anger, then we can attract the frustrated and angry, because it's that whole misery loved company thing. And if that truth is infused with joy and gratitude, we tend to attract the people that are looking for joy and gratitude. And I've found that, for me, where I put my energy is the areas that I'm growing. And so, I just want to be really aware of that. And so, again, it just boils down to this choice. How do we want to spend our energy and what do we want to attract with it?PAM: Yeah. The stories we tell ourselves and those around us have such a big impact on us. So, I am really looking forward to diving into that idea more deeply in a couple of weeks. But it is also a great lens to consider when we're thinking about choice, because if the story we're telling ourselves and the people around us is that we don't have a choice, that we have to do X, Y, Z, that's most likely going to be the one we all run with. So often, we treat our stories as facts. "This is the situation. Now where do we go from here?" And that's where people join us.So, if our story is grounded in frustration and full of have to's, that's where they join us, often sharing their frustrations and just generally tossing around in the muck with us. Back to that misery loves company. But if our story is steeped in choice and possibilities, that's where they'll jump in with us. Oh, that is a big change. Best of luck with that. Have you considered this? They're just generally more supportive and helpful. And both stories can absolutely be true to the facts. But we get to choose which one we tell ourselves and others, which one feels better to us in the moment. And that is not a trick question. Sometimes what feels better is to vent, right?But it is absolutely helpful to remember that it's a choice and we don't need to stick to that version of our story forever.ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. We can change a story when it stops serving us. That's another big revelation. Like, "Oh, this story I've been hanging onto, I can change it up." So, lots to consider there.So, we're going to leave you with a few questions to ponder.First, do you find yourself saying, "I have to," a lot? Really listen, because actually we don't even always notice it.PAM: That's so true.ANNA: Tune in. Can you find any patterns around when you see it happening more frequently? And kind of like you talked about, Pam, it tends to be those under-resourced moments, where we kind of start clicking off the have to's and the giant list and all the things.How does it feel to think about having choices in each moment?PAM: So, I think that'll be a big one. You don't even have to like move forward with it, but just take a moment to think, "Oh, what if I had a choice?" If you can't see a choice yet. But it could even just be how does it feel to think about, "Oh, what if there were choices?" And that I think can be the first little baby step.ANNA: I'm so curious how my friend's husband's going to think about some of this stuff, because he listens to the podcast. And so, what does it feel like to just think, but what if you did have a choice? What if you let go of that story that you don't?So, another thing is, what helps you find your center when you're moving through a challenge? I think that can just be really helpful, because we're going to keep getting challenge. So, helping people understand what helps us move through that, what helps it feel a bit more with ease, what helps us find that gratitude, whatever it is that feels good.And lastly, what choices do you see around the stories you are currently telling about your life? Yeah, that's going to be good. Because we're always telling stories. If you're sitting there listening, going, "I don't know if I have stories," no, you do. You have stories. And let's look at them like, because these can be things we are carrying with us for a long time. And again, check back in a couple weeks when we really dig into stories as well.So, just thinking about this idea of choice, I think is just interesting. Play with it. How does it feel? What feels better? How does it work? So, yeah, I think it's going to be fun.PAM: Yes, I think so, too. And that stories one, too. As you said, if you don't think you're telling stories, I think just take a pull back and instead of choices around the stories you're telling yourself, think about, what stories am I telling myself? Just start to look through the lens of story and see how that feels. See what you see. I think it'll be so interesting to dive into.ANNA: Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.PAM: Bye.

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LJ006: Boundaries, Comfort Zones, and Capacity [Foundations]

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 24, 2022 34:10

The idea of boundaries comes up pretty often in conventional circles, often through the lens of self-care, encouraging people to set boundaries with their kids, their partners, their parents, and so forth, and to stay strong in defending them.But in this week's episode, we're digging into the language of boundaries and exploring some alternative ways of communicating our needs and learning about the important people in our lives. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.Think of a boundary you hold right now with your partner or a close friend. What might be gained from having some conversations around it? Might it give them some more helpful information about you? Could it help you feel more seen and heard in the relationship? How does the idea of using comfort zones to better understand and communicate your needs land with you? How often do you operate outside of your capacity to thrive? Can you think of times that you didn't trust someone else's definition of their capacity? How did it play out? Did it impact your relationship? TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully podcast. We are happy you're interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.And in today's episode, we are going to talk about boundaries, comfort zones, and capacity. And it may end up being a bit longer than usual, but we are really excited to have this conversation. There are some big paradigm shifts around these ideas that can really have a positive impact on your relationships.Now, our focus with this podcast is on cultivating connected, trusting, and respectful relationships with our partner, with our children, with anyone we choose to have that level of a relationship with. And we soon discover that that means deeply understanding ourselves so that we can more gracefully navigate the edges where we engage with others. So, that's really the foundation of this conversation.And to start with, let's dive into the idea of boundaries, because it comes up pretty often in conventional circles, often through the lens of self-care, encouraging individuals to set strong boundaries with their partners, for their parents, to set boundaries with their kids, and just to stay strong in defending them.And the motivation behind that idea makes a lot of sense. It's to encourage us to not be manipulated into doing things that we don't want to do. That makes a lot of sense. But the solution proposed of setting and defending boundaries can often create challenges and disconnection in our relationship. Can't it?ANNA: Yes! I just don't find the boundary language particularly helpful. So, the energy of it feels very final and it has this feeling of drawing a line in the sand and, "I'm going to defend that line to the death," and also that somehow, I'm letting myself down if I don't uphold it, which is just this double whammy coming at us.PAM: Exactly.ANNA: So, the alternative I found is to look at the moment in front of me, to be honest about where I am, what I can do in that moment, because it changes. There are things we can't anticipate about the situations we're faced with.And I think, especially with my loved ones, I want to have an energy of curiosity and connection. Standing on the other side of an intensely drawn boundary just doesn't have the same feel to me. And this could be a language thing. I'm definitely a word person and I tend to respond energetically to words. So, I look to my language to help me cultivate the energy I want to bring and the person I want to be in a situation. That's why these words are important to me and why I really love teasing apart these nuances.PAM: Yes, yes. I find it very helpful to consider my language, as well, including the language I use when thinking or talking to myself. When I use the word "boundaries," does it mean a hard stop to me? When I envision someone approaching it and approaching me, am I looking at the line or am I looking at the person?Because what a pre-drawn line doesn't do is consider the context of the moment. Am I feeling resourced and centered? Are they? How's our day been going? What does their request look like through their eyes? What does it look like through my eyes? What constraints may be at play? Can we get curious together about ways to navigate it this time?Because I think one of the things we worry about is, if I do it this time, I'll have to do it every time. "There's that boundary. I moved that boundary and now it's forever there." But that is not true. We are not giving tacit permission forever more. We're chatting with them about this particular moment and that is how we learn more about each other.ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. And keeping in mind that context keeps it from feeling arbitrary to the other person involved as well. We're reacting together to the context of the situation, and that's where the learning's happening.And I do think boundaries can have a place when we're faced with toxic relationships. This can be friends or even family from our family of origin. When a relationship is harming us, when we find ourselves tied in knots thinking about it, when we see it impacting our mental health or happiness, boundaries can be a helpful step to distance ourselves enough to see the situation more clearly. Even that doesn't have to be a forever step, but it can be a self-preservation step to gain perspective and to decide if this relationship is one that will work for us going forward.But if we're choosing to spend our life with someone, I truly believe that boundary language just tends to shut down communication. It doesn't leave room for finding solutions that feel good to both parties. And I think it's important to realize that this is not about not expressing or meeting our needs, but when we do it in relationship, it looks so different.If we want to have a consensual relationship where the parties involved are heard and seen and we find agreeable solutions, standing behind a hard boundary can get in the way of that. And I've found that I can honor who I am and still be open and curious to finding solutions that feel good to everyone involved.PAM: Yes! I think that is such an important distinction. We're talking about relationships with the people in our lives with whom we want to cultivate strong, connected, and trusting relationships.So, when it comes to extended family or people at work, a boundary can be a useful tool to quickly communicate our needs to someone. But with those we want a closer and more intimate relationship with, a boundary can get in the way of that. We tend to pull that out instead of having a conversation.But it's in those conversations where we come to better understand each other, where we cultivate connections, where we build trust. That space is where relationships flourish.ANNA: Yes. And so, another thing that I've noticed, I call the pendulum. For much of our early life, we're basically subject to others in a variety of different ways. We're told what to do, how to do it, often subjugating our needs and preferences. And somewhere along the line, often in our thirties and forties, we have this awakening and we realize, "Wait a minute! My needs are important here, too!"And so, you can go into this intense period of advocating for your needs. And I think this is when the strong boundary language that we hear around really resonates with people. "Yes! This feels awesome!" But I've also seen that as we get a bit older that things soften and we realize that we don't have to defend our needs to the death, that we can honor ourselves and honor another, and that solutions are really there to be found.And I want to say very clearly that there's no right and wrong about this. There's no timeline about any of it. It's just an interesting pattern and I think it can help to be aware of it and maybe watch for it. Are we swinging way over here? Do we want to come back maybe more towards the center? See how it's feeling as we play with unpacking any baggage we have in this area.And I think pretty much all of us have some baggage in this area.PAM: Yeah, no, I do love the metaphor or the image of the pendulum, and absolutely it can be a valuable part of our journey, a helpful part, to swing right up to the very edge, because then we're gaining experience with what that feels like, and we notice the pieces that aren't working.And when we understand those kinds of patterns, it can be helpful for us, too, to help us recognize where we might be on the journey and use that information to help us just decide where we want to go next.But I do love that idea of the patterns and just paying attention, because, for me, I enjoy looking for that and seeing those bigger picture patterns of how things flow.And you mentioned the baggage that we can bring. Because, for me, as I thought about how the idea of boundaries feels for me, and thinking back to when I was first playing around with this, I realized that I grew up steep in the conventional culture of competition. So, as I started thinking about this myself, that's one of the places I went.So, when I thought about how I anticipated engaging with others in terms of boundaries, it really spiked my defensive energy. As soon as I was feeling defensive, I saw the other person, whether it was my child, partner, whoever I was engaged with, I saw them as the opposition. Like, "You're the enemy, because I need to defend this boundary. This is a win-lose situation."And time and again after having brought that energy to many a conversation, just like you were saying, I learned through experience that when I did that, especially with someone that I love, that perspective and energy just hindered our interaction. It got in the way of us moving forward.I noticed that my defensiveness raised their defensiveness, which meant that we were both less empathetic. We were just defending harder and harder. And we were each just focused on our own bits and we were only seeing it through our own lens. We listened to the other person not to hear those new bits of information that curiosity can bring and that we notice. We were listening to them so that we could find the things that we could twist in support of the position that we were defending.So, as I sat with the discomfort of these two seemingly contradictory ideas, "I need boundaries so that people don't walk all over me," and, "I want to be connected to this person," I came to see that, for me, the image of holding a boundary sparks that defensive energy, which negatively impacts my connection with my loved ones.So, even a rule or a boundary that made sense to me, what it did was shut down so much rich conversation and learning and my opportunity to learn more things about these people in my life, things that I would have never discovered if I didn't have that conversation in the first place. But those conversations didn't bubble up if it was just like, "No, you can't do that. You can't do that." ANNA: Right. And that's the thing. We're talking about a very different style of communication and problem solving, and so I hope it's clear that as we're looking at it, because we have this one side, you the zero-sum game, defend your position at all costs. That's pretty common in our culture. We see it in governments to toddlers.And then here, we're talking about listening, stating our needs, listening to someone else's needs, having those conversations, learning more about each other, moving forward together on the same team. It's so different, but it's so much more pleasant and so rich with the discoveries about each other and where we can go from there.PAM: Absolutely. And what helped encourage me to have those conversations was moving away from the idea of boundaries. And instead, I started using the idea of comfort zones. And what that shift from boundaries to comfort zones reminded me to do was to bring my sense of self. So, it's not about, "I have no boundaries now, do whatever," again. It's never about taking our needs out of the equation. It's more fully bringing our needs into the moment and into that conversation without having to draw that line in the sand.So, boundaries feel external to me while comfort zones feel internal. Comfort zones remind me to open up and lean in rather than to stand there right behind the line.ANNA: Right. And, for me, it's that line in the sand that I wanted to avoid. And with comfort zones, I just like the feel of it, because we do talk about stretching and growing our comfort zones, and I think all of my relationships have helped me do that.I think we can come into all of our relationships with some pretty rigid ideas of how things should be. And that can stem from our childhood experiences, the prevailing relationship ideas around us, what's being modeled for us. But those rigid beliefs don't take into account the actual humans that we're living with, how they see the world, what feels good to them, how they process information, what they want to accomplish and learn. And that's where the curiosity and the communication that we're talking about comes into play.I don't have to stretch my comfort zone, but I want to be open to examining it, especially if it's somehow putting a limit on someone else. And so, that's why, in general, I just prefer to look at needs. If we have a situation where we're at an impasse, if we switch the focus to the underlying needs, then we have more room to find the creative solutions that feel good to both of us. So, I like the feel of that again. It's just a totally different paradigm.PAM: It really is. And I love the way you framed that as needs. For me, that shift was that these conversations really ended up being less about the thing, the thing that we were in conflict about, and just more about the people involved, which fully included me, and that's where the needs come in.Being curious about what the person is needing or wanting to do and understanding the motivation behind that.Why is that the next step that makes the most sense to them? And why is that next step right at the edge of my comfort zone? Why is that needling at me? And when we better understand those pieces, we can better explain our perspective and needs to them, which gives them the opportunity to understand us better.And then, from there, maybe they give us more information that we didn't think of, information that addresses our need. Maybe we give them a piece of information that they missed, and together we find a different way to meet their need. There's just so much more space for people to move when you take out the competitive nature of that hard line and just start playing, just start thinking, just start sharing what your needs are, what you're wanting to accomplish, and seeing where that goes. We can be so much more creative when you take that competitive nature out, I think.ANNA: Right! Because, as humans, if we're backed into a corner, we'll defend something to the death even if we don't agree with it. It's just this reaction when someone's coming at us to start defending. But you see that very different exchange that you were just talking about. It's like, "Well, here's what I'm feeling worried about." "Oh, okay. Well, what about this then? What about that?" We're working together to try to make both of us feel comfortable, both of us feel good moving forward, and it's just so different.PAM: Yeah, and I like how it feels, understanding that I'm choosing to stretch my comfort zone rather than naming it in my self-talk as, "I failed to defend my boundary." It's night and day how that feels. "I failed," or "I chose." And we can also choose to just not stretch, but we can choose to operate completely outside our comfort zone for a while. Sometimes a situation needs me to do something that in any other circumstances I would not choose to do, but this is where I am right now, and that's not a failure either.ANNA: Right. And I think relationships give us so many opportunities to do that, to stretch, but also to just step outside for a minute to take care of business. But I always want to ground myself in the choice. And you mentioned it before.So, I'm not great at parties. Again, this is a well-known fact. If David wants to go to a party with his friends, it will no doubt stretch my comfort zone. But instead of feeling pressured or as if I need to set a boundary around it, I can first ground myself in the fact that I always have a choice. And then I can also feel that choice and I can bring into play my whys.In this case, I want to support him. He thinks it'll be a fun night. And so, with some further conversation, we can figure out a way for it to feel good to us both. Maybe for me, that's knowing where it will be, who will be there, how long will we need to stay. Should I drive separately? If that doesn't feel good, can we agree not to stay too late?That conversation helps us learn more about each other. He's learning what my concerns are, also what my tender areas are, and I'm learning why it's important to him and what parts he's looking forward to and why he wants to go in the first place. And if I just shut that down summarily, "I don't go to parties, I don't like them," we'd miss this chance to dig into that and to find something that feels good to both of us.PAM: Yes. And that is the beauty of comfort zones for me versus boundaries. It encourages me to actually pay attention to the moment, to the context of the moment, versus, this is my line. This is always my line.Conversations are so much richer and our relationship connections are strengthened, not strained. I love that piece. When we have that boundary, "I don't go to parties," that's just what we pull out. But remembering my why, and everybody's why, I can support the why and the joy and all those pieces.And there are times when I'm feeling resourced, when I'm just in a great place and I can stretch my comfort zone a bit and we can enjoy this thing together. Maybe we're not enjoying the same pieces, but we can jigger things around so that there are also pieces that work for me. That's so much richer and there's just so many more experiences in our lives, like not literally having to do things, but our worlds are bigger when we know more about each other, when we can navigate those pieces.Okay, so there's one more aspect that we wanted to explore, and that's the idea of capacity. I feel it fits so beautifully with this conversation of boundaries and comfort zones, because sometimes we do have a pretty hard limit on what we can physically or emotionally take on in a particular moment, and it can feel a bit more definitive than a comfort zone.So, for example, having a migraine or being very tired can definitely impact our ability to engage. So, even if we're not able to stretch right now, I think the idea of capacity just feels more informative and less confrontational. It feels more supportive of the conversations that we're talking about than a boundary or a limit, or, "I can't do this."It quickly communicates to ourselves and to the others involved in the conversation what we are feeling that we are and aren't able to take on in this moment. It's more information about us, again. And capacity can be a great lens to use for us to check in with ourselves and just really feel what's up.If our first reaction is, "Oh my god, no! I don't want to go to a party!" Oh, where did that really strong reaction come from? Oh, maybe my capacity's really low and I need to do something to address that. ANNA: Oh my gosh. Yes. Capacity just feels so much more descriptive to me and it's much more about the moment that we're in, because my capacity at the end of a long day is very different from my capacity in the morning. And there can be so many things at play that come into this piece of capacity. Sleep, money, time, illness, all of these different factors.But what I want to do with all exchanges with the people I love is to keep us on the same side. They aren't trying to thwart me or harm me. We're all just trying to get our needs met. And as we keep those lines of communication open, we build trust in each other to work together to help meet all of our needs.And another idea that a friend introduced to me related to capacity is that we can operate within our capacity and survive, but we might not be able to thrive. So, we're kind of on the edge of our capacity and we can physically get it done, but it might be taking an emotional toll or even a physical toll, so that when we keep choice in that equation, we can choose to operate within our capacity to thrive. We can communicate that to the people in our lives and help them do the same.So, I can honor who I am and still support my partner or child, and they can honor who they are and still consider those around them. It's really important to me to honor someone else's comfort zone or their personal definition of capacity, even if I don't understand it or I think they could do more.This, again, comes into play with our partners and our children. Our honoring of this helps them develop a strong sense of what works for them and their why. I want to trust their process and that they will stretch when it feels right to them. And so, maybe it's helpful next time we bump up against someone when we think they could do a bit more than maybe they are, is to consider that maybe they're operating within their capacity to thrive, not their capacity to survive. And wouldn't it be beautiful if we could all stay in that thriving zone as much as possible?Because there are going to absolutely be times where we are pushed way outside of it to deal with an emergency or because something has happened around us that we can't control. But what if, when we see our loved one not doing something that we think they could, we give them that generous assumption that it's really just them knowing themselves, knowing that whatever it is may push them over an edge that is into survival mode versus thriving. I just love that framing of it as we look at another person and maybe, hopefully it stops the judgment.PAM: Oh yes. I love looking at things through their eyes, which we had talked about earlier. And even when we don't understand why they're making the choices they're making, remembering that we don't need to, that it is making sense to them, even if we think that they should be able to do X, Y, or Z.It doesn't matter. What matters and what's interesting, that's where my curiosity goes, is, "Ooh. That's feeling really good to them." And remembering that their choices really aren't about me. They are not trying to piss me off with this choice. There is some reason for them.So, I love that distinction between thriving and surviving. Because when we honor those choices, it just gives us another piece of the picture of who they are and understanding that there can be so many reasons why for them. Capacity can be a reason why they aren't up for it or don't want to stretch or do the thing that you know that they are capable of doing sometimes.And it's especially helpful to question the boundaries that are handed to us by society. One that we see held up often in conventional culture is, "I'm not going to do something for someone else that they can do for themselves." Oh my gosh. "They need to learn how to take care of themselves." You see it more often with children, but absolutely you see it with adults, too, that if we do it for them, we are being taken advantage of.ANNA: But really, we're just missing these opportunities to deepen that relationship. And then what I've seen, and I know you've seen it, too, is that when I'm feeling out of sorts and I'm just not wanting to get my own water or whatever it is, both my partner and my kids were happy to bring it over to me because that's the relationship that we cultivated.I don't want to die on a hill of, "I'm not going to do something for you, because you can do it for yourself." I do things for people all the time that they can absolutely do for themselves. I do it from a place of love and because it's within my capacity. And when it's not, I know they've got my back. And these skills are critical in all relationships, understanding it's about learning to communicate more about my needs versus expecting them to understand it or stand behind this strongly-drawn boundary with no explanation. It's just more information and transparency. The more we have, the easier it is to be in relationship. And, for me, the human experience is relationships.PAM: It's relationships. I know. And when you think about it, the more information that you have, it is so often so much easier to find that path through those pieces of information. If I only have two pieces, "They want to do this," and, "I don't want them to do this," how do you find a path between the chasm of those two things?But as we share a little bit more information back and forth, we're narrowing in on the path that we can travel between those. Sometimes it takes three sentences and off we go, we've got it figured out. And sometimes it takes longer conversations, maybe over days and weeks, but we can find our way. ANNA: I mean, it's just a quick way for me to go, "Hmm. Okay. I want to turn this around a little bit. I want to look at what's happening to get us back on the same side," because even when it feels really hard, and it may take a couple weeks to figure out something that's really big that we're trying to figure out as a family or a couple, if we're both over here together working on the problem, it feels so much better than being on these separate sides with this giant decision in front of us, and we're not really communicating about what our capacity or comfort zones are or any of those pieces. And it feels isolating and tough. But when we're together, even if it takes us time, it just feels better. It's about being open about it and examining that and seeing what makes sense to you and it's so individual.PAM: Yeah, it's so individual. It's so rich. And as we talked about in an earlier episode, where do we want to spend our time? Do I want to spend my time on the same team working together? Finding a way? Because when you're working together and finding your way together, you're both invested in this path at the end of it, rather than one powering over another, convincing you to do it this way, or us convincing them to do it this way. But then there's tears at the relationship. And then we need to invest the work in, in repairs.So, for this week, we have some fun questions for you to ponder around the ideas of boundaries, comfort zones, and capacities.The first is, think of a boundary you hold right now with your partner or a close friend. What might be gained from having some conversations around it? Might it give them some more helpful information about you, help you feel more seen and heard in the relationship?I think that's another big piece. A boundary only shares that little line of information. It doesn't share all the little pieces of me that came up with that in the first place.ANNA: And can we really be understood if they don't understand those other pieces? They can still honor that boundary. And maybe that feels okay, but with a partner who I'm in love with and this is who I want to be with, that deeper understanding of why that is a rub for me would be so much more important to me than them just honoring what might feel like an arbitrary boundary to them.PAM: Exactly. Without that information, it can feel like an arbitrary boundary. And absolutely, they can still respect it, but there is a richness that's missing then that's the only piece of communication.Okay, so next, how does the idea of using comfort zones to better understand and communicate your needs land with you? Does that make sense? Maybe try that framework and that language next time and see how it unfolds. Remember, as we talked about, let's play with this. Let's see. Nothing is a forever commitment. It's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to try this comfort zone thing, and now I can never use any other language." No. Play with it.ANNA: We're just having fun. We're just learning things. We're just trying to learn more about ourselves.PAM: Yes, yes. Okay. Next one. How often do you operate outside of your capacity to thrive? Another great question, just to dive into that self-awareness piece. It may not be something that we communicate very often, but understanding it about ourselves, noticing how often we are stepping outside of our capacity to thrive more in survival mode. And then that also can help us understand why we're feeling tired, why we don't feel like we have a lot of energy, what kind of self-care pieces that we can bring in there. Anyway, it's a great question to start with. How often do you operate outside of your capacity to thrive?ANNA: Because I think it also impacts our relationships. So, our culture values this operating at just survival mode. And so, it's something we all fall into, schools and work and all the things that we're doing. And so, it is a really interesting question to say, "Am I able to thrive and have the relationships that I want and do the things that bring joy to me? And what can I change?" So, it's like, "Am I operating outside of that and then what would that look like?" So, I think, yeah, that's going to be really interesting.PAM: Yes. And our last one, can you think of times that you didn't trust someone else's definition of their capacity? Ooh, that's a good one. How did it play out? Did it impact your relationship? It's very curious to see what other people's lens of their capacity is. As you were saying, are they just living through the cultural expectation that we survive, we go till we drop, put it all in, we are productive to the max. Are they bringing that in? ANNA: And I want to add to this one a little bit, that sometimes when we are in that survival mode, when we are pushing, pushing, pushing, we can have resentment towards someone that's choosing differently. And that resentment may not even make a lot of sense to us, but I think when you look at it through this lens, it's like, oh, wait a minute. Do I really want to be resentful or passing judgment on someone that's actually taking care of their mental health and doing this for self-care, just because I'm running my nose to the grindstone?So, I think it's really interesting. For me, again, it's this awareness. It's like, when we name these things, we're able to distance ourselves. It doesn't feel like it's all who we are. We can go, "Okay, this is something I can examine. I can play with it. I can see how it feels." You don't have to make changes, but playing with it just gives you so much more information. And especially if you see it causing a problem in a relationship, it's very much worth your time to look at those pieces.PAM: Yeah. Oh, that's one of the reasons why we are so excited to be sharing these questions, because we are not trying to get rid of some rules or paradigms and then being prescriptive about how, now you must do it this way. No, let's play with these ideas. These are things that we've found helpful in our relationships, paradigm shifts that have helped us. There is no expectation that it will work out any particular way for anyone else, but it is so worth the time to play with it. ANNA: And especially if you're feeling pinches, because I think that's the thing, if our relationships are humming along, then we've got a good understanding. Whatever we're doing is working.But when we start to feel the pinch, when we start to feel a distance, when we have a rupture for whatever reason, using these things that we're talking about can help us really kind of zero in versus standing in a place of hurt or not really knowing how to make the repair or not knowing how to change it even if we can make the repair, because we don't know how we got there.And so, these pieces allow us to play with that and to look at it and be like, "Okay, I'm going to be more intentional about this piece for these relationships that are important to me." PAM: Yeah. And for the moving forward piece, like standing there, "I don't know how we got there," and two weeks later, "I don't know how we got there."ANNA: We're here again!PAM: Okay. Thank you so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye.ANNA: Bye bye.

conversations sleep boundaries comfort standing foundations comfort zone capacity zones living joyfully anna oh anna so

LJ005: Consent and Consensual Living [Foundations]

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 17, 2022 20:52

This week, we're diving into consent and living consensually with the people in our lives. Consent is really the backbone of everything we talk about. Everyone, regardless of age, wants agency. When we can shift away from control, because we truly can't control other people, we move from a power-over dynamic to a collaboration paradigm, leading to more connected relationships.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.What does consent mean to you? How do you see it weaving together with agency?Think about a recent argument you had and how you expressed yourself. Could you reframe/reword some of what you said as an “I” message? That can be both less confrontational and more accurate. For example, instead of, “You're not listening to me!” maybe try, “I don't feel heard.” Rather than getting stuck in an endless round of “Yes, I am”/”No, you're not”, it encourages the conversation to go deeper.What barriers do you see to living consensually? How would it feel to just set them aside? This week, practice contemplating the underlying need that your friend or partner is trying to meet through their actions.TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello again and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're excited you're interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.So, in today's episode, we're talking about consent and living consensually, and I have to say, this is one of my very favorite topics. It is really the backbone of everything that we talk about. When we understand that everyone, no matter their age, wants agency, and that we truly have no control over another, we move from a power-over dynamic to a collaboration paradigm.And it's interesting, because I think intellectually most of us would agree that consent is important, that we should never push past another person's consent. And yet, in our desire to control outcomes, we often do, and this is especially true for children. And yet, how can we expect children to honor consent as adults if they have never experienced what it means to work together to find solutions to that feel good to both parties?And it comes into play in adult relationships as well, in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways. We look to change people. We have expectations and agendas that we push without regard for who that person is and what they want and what they value.PAM: Yeah, exactly. And for me, consent and by extension, living consensually, was one of those ideas that once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it. I soon recognized how often I was trying to very subtly wield control to move through situations in ways that made sense to me, especially interactions with my partner and my kids. And looking through this new lens, I notice now how disconnecting those control tactics were for my relationships. Basically, someone was almost always disappointed or disgruntled in a family of five.But I also observed that many of our interactions were steeped in power. And at their root, they were about me, often very politely, but I was convincing, coercing, or guilting the other person into doing what I wanted them to do. Gee, that calls back to our last episode as well, doesn't it?ANNA: Yeah. It does!PAM: And I realized how draining that was. My understanding of consent grew exponentially once I realized it wasn't about me convincing someone to agree to do the things my way. That's consent, right? Instead, it was so much more about seeing through their eyes and recognizing that there are many valid paths forward, not just mine. Consent meant working together collaboratively to figure out an often new path forward that made sense still and felt good to everyone involved.ANNA: Yeah, right. It definitely hearkens back to that episode and also to when we talked about how different people can be, because when we push our agenda without consideration of how the other person feels or moves through the world, when we have ultimatums or even just expectations that are kindly and politely put out there, we're taking away that other person's agency, and that is just not a solid place from which to build a strong relationship.Humans want autonomy. They want to have agency over their lives. So instead, we can learn about one another. We can commit to deeply understanding what makes each of us tick. We can set up an environment where we find solutions to problems together, trusting that we'll keep at it until both parties feel good about the plan.And that's really the core of choosing to live consensually. The process involves listening and validating, being able to clearly articulate our own needs, but in "I" messages, not demands. After everyone feels heard and seen, that's where we can cultivate this open curious mindset, this brainstorming-type idea about how to solve the situation at hand. At that point, we're all on the same team. We're working together to solve for all the needs, instead of standing on opposite sides, defending and advocating only for our own needs.And a big part of this is understanding that there are almost always underlying needs at play. So, very often, a conflict is sitting at one level that can feel impossible to solve. One person wants to go out, the other wants to stay home. Where do we go with that? But if we peel back a layer to see the underlying needs, then we have more to work with. We have more options to consider. But we can't get there if we're stuck in that place of thinking their actions are about us, if we think our partner is just being difficult, if we're taking it personally. There are needs on both sides of that argument and understanding those opens up the options.So, maybe one wants to just really see their friends. So, could the friends come over instead? The other had a long day and just needs some downtime. Is allowing a bit more time before going out the fix? Solutions are everywhere when we assume positive intent on all sides and start working together to understand each other and the situation more.That quick reminder that they're just humans trying to meet a need helps us remain connected and curious. And now we have a puzzle to solve together, instead of two or more people digging in their heels on opposite sides of this surface-level disagreement.PAM: Yes, yes, yes. And, for me, it made all the difference in the world when I felt we were truly all on the same team, trying to figure out a way to move forward that met each of our needs. It was such a big energetic, feeling difference. So, we can just take a moment to envision what that might feel like. So, when each person feels seen and heard and trust that their needs will ultimately be met, it is so energizing. It opens up so many creative possibilities, rather than locking two people, as you said, into that battle until one comes out the winner. There's a winner and loser in that situation. Who has the power? Who can convince the other one to do it their way?It definitely takes time and patience and practice to bring consent into our everyday relationships, but it really is life-changing. I do want to acknowledge the time that these conversations can take as you work together to figure out those underlying needs, to figure out a path forward that works for everyone. But the other path, which is the argument, the power struggles, and then the aftermath of needing to repair the relationship, that takes up time, too. So, which process feels better to experience with those you love, trust and collaboration or judgment and power struggles?ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. So, that right there was really a big part of me wanting to move in this direction. It takes time and energy to argue one's position and to try to win everything, energy that I found draining and disconnecting. And I knew I didn't want to live in that energy every day. It felt very assaulting to me.What I found was how rewarding and connecting it was to live in a house with no top-down agendas, no punishment or control, just connection and collaboration, whether it was with David or if it involved our kids. We were all invested in helping each other meet our needs and do the things that we wanted to do. That deep level of trust that you will be supported and unconditionally loved is the energy I want to cultivate and bask in every day.And so, somewhat related, over the years, David has had a lot of hobbies that people would consider dangerous. They're a part of who he is, and I've always wanted to support him in those pursuits, even when I didn't understand it. And by putting that out there, what I found in return is someone who supports all my wild hair ideas and whom I trust will always be there for me.That is worth so much more than me trying to control who he is and shape him into someone who may feel safer and easier for me. That's my work to do and, for me, it was rooted in gratitude for the time we have together and letting go of fear. Because fear is so often the root of control and letting that go allows us to find gratitude and connection to truly love those around us for who they are and how they move through the world. And that unconditional acceptance was what we both wanted to continue when we had children.And honestly, raising children in a consensual environment where we were all trusted and supported, where we learned to understand and express our needs and knew we would be heard and that solutions would be found, has been one of the greatest experiences of my life.PAM: It's been a life-changing and amazing experience, and I wanted to take a moment to talk a bit more about unconditional love and acceptance. I love that phrase. And, for me, it doesn't feel like throwing my hands up in the air and thinking, whatever! Whatever they want to do!I think when we hear unconditional at first, that can be what we think. Okay. No conditions. I have no input. Whatever they want to do, just off they go.For me, unconditional means without expectations, so without conditions, not withholding our love and affection if the person makes a choice that we don't agree with, even more so not using judgment and shame as tools to try to get them to change their mind.But not having conditions doesn't mean not trying to understand them as a person, like we have been talking about. If they make a choice that doesn't make sense to us, unconditional love doesn't mean we think, "Whatever. I still love you. Off you go," and then burying our feelings of concern.So, instead we can be more open and curious. We can learn more. Maybe it's in direct conversation with them or by paying extra attention to how the choice unfolds for them. How are they navigating it? What are they enjoying about it? I am so curious. What the heck do you enjoy? But either way, we learn more about them. We have a better understanding of who they are as a person.Because even if we often say, "I love you!" it is hard for someone to feel loved for who they are if they don't feel seen and heard. They think, "Sure, they said they love me, but they don't really understand who I am."Being in relationship with a person means understanding who they are, which also isn't a one and done thing. We all grow and change over time. To embrace consent and consensual living in our relationships with the people we love is to choose to be curious about who they are as a person, because that is a great place to start just right there. Like, who is this person?ANNA: Right. And like you said, when we say, whatever, I love you, whatever, do whatever. That doesn't feel good. So, even if I don't understand something, I can ask questions and just like we've been talking about over these last few weeks, learn more about them. And then as we leave ourselves open to that, we're seeing through their eyes. We're starting to see like, okay, it does make sense that they love this. I see how that's feeding them. I see what they love about it.And so, that moves us from this place of, okay, I'm not going to stop them, to, I'm celebrating who they are. And that switch is so big, moving to celebrating. Even when it's something we may not participate in ourselves or fully understand, we do understand through their eyes what they're getting from.PAM: Yes. And we can connect. So, maybe it's a thing that, "Yeah, I don't want to join you in your thing. I'm glad that you love it." But where we can also really deeply connect with them is thinking about something that we love that much. So, when we know that, it's like how much I love this thing, then I can get a real feel and sense for how much they're enjoying the thing we're doing, and less about having conversations later about the facts of what happened.It can be, "I bet you had so much fun." You can talk about the energy, you can talk about the experience. That's where you can connect with them and share and celebrate them. I love that point that you shared about getting to the place where you can celebrate their love of the thing. You can celebrate their choices without having to make the same choice, without having to join them, but we can celebrate that energy and knowing how it feels for ourselves, too.ANNA: Yes. I just love how you're saying that, because that's the piece. We can celebrate how much joy it brings to them. We can celebrate their excitement about something, even if we can't celebrate the individual piece of it, because we maybe don't understand it or it doesn't appeal to us. But that's irrelevant. When someone you love lights up about something, be it a child or your partner or your friend, that's energy we can get on board with. And celebrating someone for something like that, it builds this deep trust and bond, that I'm seen by this person that they really see me and it's just really beautiful. So, I love that.So, let's give a few questions to ponder as we're thinking about consent and living consensually with your loved ones for this week. What does consent mean to you? How do you see it weaving together with agency? I think this is going to be good.PAM: Yeah. That is so interesting, that connection between those two things. And just thinking about agency, is that something I want to step on? How does it feel to have agency? To have choice? How does consent weave in with that. I think that'll be really fun to play with.ANNA: Yeah, to peel a little of that back. Okay. So, think about a recent argument you had and how you expressed yourself. Could you reframe or reword some of what you said as an "I" message? That can be both less confrontational and more accurate. So, for example, instead of saying, "You're not listening to me," maybe try, "I don't feel heard." Rather than getting stuck in the endless round of, "Yes, I am listening." "No, you're not listening," and we have this meta fight that starts happening, it encourages the conversation to go deeper. "Why are you not feeling heard? I don't understand. I want to understand." It just takes it to a different place.PAM: Yeah. And that's a great example of getting to the underlying needs, because so often, we can take that need and jump to the solution and share the solution. Not feeling heard, the solution is for them to listen to me. So, I say, "You're not listening to me." But they feel that they are. So, that doesn't click for them. So, if you go to the root, to the need, the need is, I'm not feeling heard. Then maybe there is a different way. It's less confrontational and it's also more fundamentally accurate.I'm not feeling heard. That's where we are. If you can come up with new and interesting ways for me to feel heard or for me to see that you're hearing what I'm saying, that's where the rub is right now. I don't need to give them the solution that I think they need to do.ANNA: Right, Exactly. Because again, that gets us in that meta argument, which just never ends well. Okay, so, what barriers do you see to living consensually? And how would it feel to set them aside? And I think this one's important, because I think for most of us growing up, we may not have had choices and consent in all areas our life. So, it's not necessarily something that we have a lot of experience with, but I think you can feel the difference. And so, I think even just the thought experiment of setting it aside, what would it look like to have this collaborative relationship with all the people that I live with? How would I feel?Think of the areas that rub or that feel draining for you in your day. Would changing that paradigm soften some of that? I think that'll be interesting.And the last one is, this week, practice contemplating the underlying need that your friend or partner is trying to meet through their actions. I think write out some examples so that you can start to see patterns, because we can see patterns of, when they're tired, they get a little grumpier. It can be hungry. It can be things like that. And it can just be, oh, okay, this one thing kind of triggers this same type of argument each time, so there must be something else under it.And so, I think when we start to look for patterns, when we start to think about it, for me, behaviors are always a reflection of a need. So, when we see a behavior, whether we like it or don't like it, look at what's the need that's playing out here? And so, when this is not in a charged situation, as well, then we start to just be better at recognizing the behaviors as a reflection of needs. And then we get better at it. Like we said, it's just practice and learning. And so, then we don't get stuck at that rubbing point of the behavior.PAM: And I think it is so valuable for us to start with contemplating it, because if you all of a sudden start, when you're having a conversation or conflict with someone, saying, well, what is the need underneath? Why are you asking for that? That can be off putting. And they're not thinking in that way yet, so they may well not be able to answer that question for you.But when we start thinking that way, like that example that we just talked about, you're not listening, but I want to feel heard, when we start practicing that, over time we get better with identifying those. And the other piece being, I also love your patterns note, because there can also be patterns to when those things bubble up for them and we can even play with addressing those needs.When somebody starts to feel a little bit grumpy and you've seen over time that it's often when they haven't eaten or anything, even if we just like grab a glass of water or whatever, bring a drink, bring a quick snack. Don't say anything. Just hand it to them while you're starting into the conversation and just see how that goes, back to the playing with it.But yeah, being able to contemplate it ourselves and start to see it without putting expectations on other people to meet us right there. When we start doing this, they will get curious. We will have opportunities outside of the charged moments to mention these things. So, it's something we can all get to, but again, needs time to practice, needs time to just kind of soak in the ethos.ANNA: And having that self awareness piece. When when I make it have an action, what's my driving need? What need am I trying to meet with this action? From simple things like I'm calling a friend. "Hey, I'm feeling lonely, or I'm feeling like I want to be heard by someone, or I'm just wanting to connect." It can be anything. But if we start to just understand that the behaviors are always driven by a need, it just gets easier and faster to recognize them.PAM: It does. It does so much. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much for listening everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye.ANNA: Bye bye.

humans foundations consent gee consensual anna yeah anna oh

LJ004: Seeing through Someone Else's Eyes [Foundations]

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 10, 2022 19:07

In this week's episode, we're talking about seeing through someone else's eyes, rather than walking in their shoes. This is a valuable paradigm shift to consider when trying to learn more about the people in our lives. By considering people's unique personalities, interests, and sensitivities, we can better understand their choices and avoid a lot of conflict and misunderstandings.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.Take a moment to think about a close friend or loved one. How would you describe their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions?Pick an issue or challenge you recently navigated with family or friends. What did it look like through your eyes? Now try to see it through the eyes of someone else who was involved. How does it look different? How does it look the same? Why?Remember a time you judged someone else about their choice or decision. Where did that judgment stem from? If you released that judgment and got more curious about why that choice made sense for them, how might things have played out differently?Let's explore the story of you. What are your current aspirations and goals? Strengths and weaknesses? Interests and passions? How do they inform the day to day choices you make?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are thrilled you're interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.And in today's episode, we are going to talk about seeing through someone else's eyes. This was another big paradigm shift for me in how I choose to be in relationship with others, because over the years, I have often heard the advice to walk in the other person's shoes so that we can better understand them and what they're experiencing.But I discovered that, for me, that didn't go quite far enough. So, I put myself in my partner's shoes or my child's shoes, see what challenges and constraints they were facing, and come up with what I thought was a great plan for moving forward. And then they didn't agree. And I was like, "What? Why not? This is perfect!" I just didn't understand why they wouldn't follow my suggestions and I judged them negatively for their lack of cooperation. Like, "Let's move through this, people! Here's a great way to do it. You're just being stubborn." They must see how well my plan would work out.So, when that wasn't working, I dug into it more. And jumping off what we talked about last week about how different people are in so many ways, I realized that putting myself in someone else's shoes meant that I was still using my experiences and perspectives, my ways of processing, and my preferred ways of engaging with the world. I was still filtering this new view of the world through the lenses that made sense to me.I discovered that beyond walking in their shoes, I wanted to try seeing through their eyes. Oh my goodness! The picture is so much richer. It holds their experiences and preferences, how they prefer to process information, and how they prefer to engage with the world. It holds their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, their interests and passions.And their choices now made so much more sense to me, because I can see how they were the best choices for them. In the same situation, I, in their shoes, may well make a very different choice, but that is entirely because I'm me. Because people are different, when I want to connect with someone, when I want to more fully understand their experiences and support them as they move through their days, putting myself in their shoes isn't as helpful as seeing it through their eyes.ANNA: Oh my goodness. Yes! I really loved when I first heard you talking about this, because it really puts this very helpful visual on why my attempts at solving things for everybody falls a bit flat. And I love to solve things. And in my early days, my inclination was definitely to look at someone's concern and set about finding a solution for them. And it was often rooted in how I would want to handle it, how would I want to move through it? But like you said, as soon as you start digging into this, really even at all, you see why it doesn't work. And, as is so often the case, turning it around really helps me see why.So, I have this close friend and she moves through the world in a very different way. She is a go-getter. She makes the call. She finishes the thing. She tells people what she needs in this very direct way. So, when I would share something with her, she would offer advice based on how she moves through the world and it would often just leave me feeling misunderstood, really. Disconnected.It wasn't that her ideas weren't valid or even amazing, but they were not likely to work for me, because it just isn't as easy for me to make that call to someone out of the blue or to be super direct about what I need from them. But when someone understands those pieces about me, they can help me find ways to get what I want that feel comfortable. Maybe there will be some stretching and that's okay, but it'll be grounded in who I am and give me the best chance of actually being able to do it and to solve the problem that's in front of me to begin with.So, that realization really helped me stop doing it to others. And instead, I focused on listening and learning and seeing through their eyes, helping them find ways that resonated with them and who they are and how they want to move through the world.PAM: Yes. And I think it is really important to just note that seeing through someone else's eyes is a skill that we get better with over time. We need to practice with releasing our lenses. Sometimes we've got lenses in there that we really don't know that we have until we start pulling them away. And how can we not value our way of seeing it and being in the world as better? It goes back to last week's episode. We're all different, and that's okay. One way isn't better than the other, except that that's our natural tendency to do it. So, it can be hard to just release that valuing, because it really is better for us.And also, our relationships with our loved ones become more connected just because we come to better understand their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions, which means we can more accurately bring those aspects into the picture and vice versa. We are sharing ours and they learn more about us. It just takes time, doesn't it? We always like to think, okay, this makes sense. I'm going to do this right now. Let's go.ANNA: Forever more! But it does take time and I think with everything, be gentle with ourselves as we figure it out. And do little steps, like starting with, "Well, this is how I might move through that." Just that little qualification, being clear about that as opposed to saying, "I think you should do this," which is sometimes where we go, but that's a great start. That little qualification, "This is how I might move through that." It leaves room for connection and learning more, because at that point, they can say, "I don't think I could do that." And then you're able to learn more and have more of that conversation.But dropping the judgment piece that you were just talking about, I think, is really the most important and sometimes the hardest. "Well, if they would just do it the way I want them to, it would be solved." Well, if the "this" is not something that feels good to them, it won't solve it and it actually will just leave the person feeling like there's something wrong with them or that they're completely misunderstood and it definitely can impact our connection and relationship. And there isn't anything wrong with them. There isn't only one way to do something. They just may not want to move through the world in the same way that I do.So, we can let go of that judgment and commit to learning more about who they are and what feels best to them. Sharing our ideas, absolutely, but with this open, curious mindset that they might be seeing it in a very different way.PAM: Yes. Exactly. This tool of seeing through their eyes, how it works, is also really helpful when we just want to understand a choice they're making. Maybe they're not looking for our input.So, when we see a choice and it doesn't make sense to us, maybe it's not a choice we would ever make, but when we take a moment to see it through their eyes, all of a sudden it can make so much more sense.And, that said, sometimes no matter how hard we try to see through their eyes, we just don't understand why they want to do the thing they want to do. So, in those moments, what works for me is leaning on my understanding again, that people are different. And not taking things personally, like we talked about. They're not making this choice to piss me off. They're making it because it makes sense to them.So, that helps me move through any judgment of them that I might be feeling, and instead get curious. Because judgment is not only disconnecting, it's often a clue that I'm just missing something. So, I might ask more questions to try to better understand and absolutely, sometimes that helps. Sometimes I was just missing this little piece. It's like, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense.Sometimes they can't explain things in a way though that makes sense to us. That again, doesn't mean that they're wrong. I can choose to trust them to make their own decisions, and we will all learn more as things unfold over time. That is beautiful. When we see how things unfold, when we see their next step and their next step, we see a bigger picture of what's happening.And if things do go a bit sideways for them, when I'm not bringing that judgmental energy of, "I told you so. I had a better idea," when we're not bringing that to the conversation, we can support them as they tweak their path over time to get where they want to go.Or maybe I discover a new aspect of them that I didn't know about. Maybe it's a new aspiration that's been bubbling up. Maybe it's a fear, a new interest, a sensitivity, like we talked about before, that may be developing.So, when we're open and curious about the people that we're in relationship with, we all grow and learn and change alongside each other, which is so much more connecting and fun than trying to coax and control each other to do what we think is best. ANNA: So much yes. My goal is connection and part of that is understanding these differences and not only learning to understand, but the next step is really celebrating. And when we can celebrate even when we don't fully understand, that makes such a difference. The world is richer for us all playing to our strengths and supporting one another to do that. This is especially true for the people we are choosing to share our life with. But, I mean, for me, it really goes for all people.It's back to that generous assumption and cultivating an open, curious mindset, so that we can begin to understand why people are seeing the world differently. Why are they choosing differently? And knowing that those different ways of seeing and doing are not attacks on our way of seeing and doing. Both can and do exist. And to be in relationship with someone, celebrating that instead of judging helps us avoid conflicts and misunderstanding, and it really deepens that trust and bond we have with each other, because we feel deeply understood, which is so important to us as humans, often.PAM: So much. Just take a moment to sink into that and just feel, somebody knowing us to that level, which also includes us knowing ourselves. We kind of need to get there ourselves before we can even share those pieces of information with others. But, as you said, it does help us avoid so much conflict and misunderstanding and taking things personally and judging others and having expectations of others, and instead, deepens our connection, deepens our trust, deepens that whole bond that we have, within our whole family.And then, as you said, it's our choice how deep and strong a relationship we want with anybody who passes through our lives. So many of these tools are also useful, at least I have found, in my extended relationships as well.So, here are some questions that you might want to ponder as you explore this really fun difference between walking in someone's shoes and seeing through their eyes. So, the first one is, take a moment to think about a close friend or a loved one. How would you describe their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions? It's really fun to do that. And then, you know what? It might be really fun to check in with them. And say, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking. This is how I'm seeing you. What have I nailed? What have I maybe gone a little sideways on?" It could spark a really, really fun conversation.ANNA: Yeah. I think that's a great conversation.PAM: Yeah. Especially when we just come at it that way, rather than it coming out after a conflict or around a conflict or something. There is no energy and judgment in the air. It's just like, let's have this fun conversation. Okay. Next.Pick an issue or challenge that you recently navigated with family or friends. What did it look like through your eyes? Now try to see it through the eyes of someone else who was involved. How does it look different? How does it look the same? Why do you think that is? Just start playing with that, as well. Where are the the places where you see the same things and where might we see things differently? And then maybe play it through a little bit more, like the choices that people made throughout whatever issue or challenge it was, do they make more sense to you now that you're looking at it through their eyes?ANNA: I think what happens when we do this piece, where we step back and go, how are they seeing it? It takes some of the charge out of it, because when we are only seeing through our eyes, we're bulldozing down the tunnel to get to our end point. But when we step back and go, oh my gosh, I can see how they're seeing that in a really different way, suddenly, the charge comes out of it and we can get on the same team. We can go, okay, I'm seeing it this way. You're seeing it that way. Let's talk about that. It just changes that whole dynamic of the head butting that can happen, you know?PAM: Yeah. And just think how that helps everyone involved feel seen and heard, no matter what the end path is. When we recognize how other people are experiencing it, that can be so valuable. All right, next.Remember a time you judged someone else about their choice or decision, and now let's do a thought experiment with that. Where did that judgment stem from? If you released that judgment and got more curious about why that choice made sense for them, how might things have played out differently? One thing that's important for us and why that playful attitude helps is it's not valuable for us to judge our past actions and thoughts. We're learning more now. We're playing with things now. The stuff that we're figuring out, we can bring with us into future encounters, future engagements, conflicts, choices, all those pieces.So we can, in our own thought experiments, play around with anything. It's okay that, man, I felt really judgey about that person that day or this thing that I saw. Maybe I know nobody who was involved, but it's worth it to think, okay, where did that judgment come from? What does that mean for me? Why is that important to me? All those pieces can be really helpful for understanding ourselves and for making maybe different choices as we move forward.ANNA: Right. That's what I was going to say. I think when we play around with some of these ones in the past, again, this is not to judge how we handled something in the past. This is not to make ourselves feel bad. But it's giving us a chance in a lower charged environment to look at that. And I think when we recognize where the judgment came in and recognize how it maybe didn't serve us in that situation, when we feel it bubbling up when something comes up ahead of us, we can go, oh, okay, this judgment, do I want to look into this now? Do I want to dig back and peel some layers back now? And so, I think that practice can help us actually help in the moment or the things that are to come.PAM: Exactly. And lastly, let's explore the story of you. What are your current aspirations and goal, strengths and weaknesses, interests and passions? How do they inform the day-to-day choices you make? I think sometimes we can kind of disconnect. We can think of these big things like, what are my goals? What are my strengths? How do I like to do things? What are my passions? And yet, we don't bring those down into our day-to-day. Or we don't make the connection. They may be subconsciously directing our choices throughout the day, because our mind knows these are the things that we value.But when we can recognize that, we can also notice that we're making more progress than we think towards our goal, et cetera. So, understanding how all those pieces weave together can be so valuable for ourselves. So, it's absolutely helpful to do this.ANNA: Yeah, and I think, too, it kind of reminds me of the priorities episode, too, with that intentionality we're bringing it, but I think what I really want to say about this question, and we'll keep talking about this, we need to develop our own self-awareness in order to be able to communicate with our partners. So, in order to be able to say what's important to us and what we're doing so that they can understand, because none of us are mind readers. So, this work of really digging into, what am I excited about? What's making me tick? How am I looking at these things? is so valuable on so many layers for us and for those in our lives.PAM: Exactly. Yes. We hope you have so much fun with these questions and we would be happy to carry on the conversation, whether you want to comment on YouTube, whether you want to comment on Instagram. We would love to hear some of your processing through these questions if you'd like to share. And thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!

sharing foundations strengths someone else interests disconnected anna yeah anna oh anna so

LJ001: Priorities [Foundations]

Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 20, 2022 18:16

On this week's episode, we're talking about priorities.We are handed a set of priorities by society and our culture, but when we really consider ourselves and our personal values, we can see how individual our priorities can be! When we choose priorities that feel good to us, it becomes easier to make day-to-day choices that align with what is important to us.We talk about how our relationships fit into our priorities (and—spoiler alert—they're at the top of our lists!) and how prioritizing connection has become a focus for both of us as we tuned out the external noise and tuned into how we want to show up in the world.We hope you enjoy this episode and take the time to dive into the episode questions. We look forward to hearing your reflections on Instagram or YouTube!Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube.EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.How can you quiet the outside noise so you can hear your own thoughts? Your inner voice?What priorities make sense to you? Why?Where do your relationships fall in your list of priorities?Are your day to day actions lining up with your priorities? What changes, if any, would you make?Do any of your priorities depend on other people's actions and choices? If so, is there a way you could tweak them so that they focus on what you can control?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are so excited you found us and look forward to exploring our relationships, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world. So, on today's episode, we're going to talk about priorities. And I love this as a starting place for the podcast, because it's such an interesting topic to examine.Priorities are so individual, and yet, so often, we're handed a set of priorities from society. We're handed definitions of success and where and how we should be spending our time.And there are these heavy guardrails of judgment that we have to move through if we choose to deviate from these expected paths.So, it can be really interesting, I've found, to dig into those outside voices, that judgment. What's behind it? What purpose does it serve? And is it helping me get in touch with who I am and who I want to be in the world?I think about the studies that they do when people are on their deathbed and they're asked, is there anything that you would change? And consistently, they answer that they wished they had prioritized their relationships over achievements or the next promotion.For me personally, I came to that realization for myself after our first child had a life-threatening after birth experience. Almost losing her really woke me up to the path I was on and to look at how I wanted to spend my time. And the answer for me was doing things I love with the people that I love. And that's how I want to spend this time that I'm given. And understanding that has just been a huge guide for me ever since.So, I'm curious, Pam, what's it been like for you?PAM: Well, it was having children that sparked my journey, as well. I found that those first few years were just filled with questions like who I wanted to be as a person and parent. And, having internalized so many of society's goals and stories growing up, it took me a while, quite a while, to realize just how much choice I actually had.I didn't need to just dutifully take on the path and the priorities that were handed to me. I could figure out what I value and make those things a priority in my. And then, as I continued to ask more questions, I came to realize what would always be in my life, and it was my relationships. Jobs, hobbies, areas of interest, while definitely being integral parts of who I am, those would come and go over the years. They had been coming and going over the years. But my relationships with my family would always be in my life. They were and are a fundamental part of just my being in the world.And so, since that aha moment, I have chosen to prioritize my relationships. And rather surprisingly, because you think I'm focusing on something, so I'm closing things down to this one thing, but I found that my life has been so much richer for it.ANNA: Oh, my gosh. So much richer. I feel like when we have that foundation of strong, connected relationships, it's just this really wonderful place from which we can explore the world and learn about ourselves. Because I think that might have been the most surprising piece for me, that as I focused on being in relationship with others, I learned so much about myself. It's not always easy, but I'm grateful for it.And so, as I'm thinking about this, we both got to this place where we didn't want to be taking these priorities that were being handed to us. The next bit for me was realizing that others don't want me to define their priorities either.So, when we think about our partners or kids, it was really helpful to think, am I judging how they spend their time, the choices that they're making? Because that judgment comes between us. We don't learn why they're making the choices they're making. We miss the opportunity to really connect with them and who they are. It's got this cloud of expectation and you'll have some people that will buck against that expectation in really dramatic fashion. And then you'll have others that really try to meet it, even if it's not in alignment for them. But, either way, the connection is harmed and can be lost together.So, I try not to be the outside voice that someone needs to shut out, but instead be someone who celebrates and just unconditionally supports the people in my life.PAM: Absolutely. That was definitely yet another layer to peel back for me, realizing how valuable it was for me to contemplate and choose my priorities, but that didn't mean my priorities were the best priorities for anyone else. It makes so much sense to me why my priorities are these and in this order, but no, everyone is a different person. And I remember the huge shift in my relationship with my spouse when I stopped trying to convince him that my priorities should be his priorities as well, which had looked like me trying to tell him what to do and when. And I was definitely nice about it. I wasn't trying to bully him or anything, but as I thought about it, I was trying to convince him that I was right and vice versa. That's where our conversations went. They were often about convincing each other that our priorities and choices were more right than the other person's. There was definitely a winner and a loser.But once I began to share my priorities without trying to convince him to adopt them, oh, my gosh. There was space for him to start sharing his without me judging them. Each of us was more able to be ourselves. We could just share and see how things landed. And then, that in turn helped us learn more about each other as we'd chat about the things that are important to us and why. And recognizing that his priorities are as important to him as mine are to me. ANNA: It's so true. I don't know. We get stuck in our head, right? We get stuck in our head thinking everybody's seeing things the same way. And so, yeah, I just love that next layer.And I think then, I want to talk about, too, as we hone in on these priorities, it's such a helpful lens to look at the day to day moments. So, in each moment, we have this opportunity to make choices. And understanding my priorities and then keeping them front of mind as I made choices throughout the day was critical to me, actually honoring them as priorities, versus just giving lip service to, "My relationships are important," or whatever the thing might be.So, what that would look like for me, it might be stopping what I'm doing to hear my child excitedly tell me about their game. It's taking a walk after dinner with David to reconnect, because we've had some time apart that day. Because, truthfully, I could curl up with a book and get some work done at the computer, but I do want to tend to that relationship, that priority first. And what I found is that that connection serves us both as we move through the evening and through the subsequent days.And another really big one for me, this was so huge, was learning to say no to outside requests that took me away from the people that I loved. And here's the thing. Sometimes there are easy yeses and they feed me and they feel great and they feel great to those around me. But other times, what I noticed is that I was saying yes without really thinking about how it would impact me, my energy, what I would have left to give my family, the time it might take away from spending time with the important people in my life, all of those things.I'm just seeing the person in front of me with the ask and saying, "Okay, I'll help," without really checking in. And using that lens really helped me realize that the time with them was what I wanted to prioritize, and so, I really needed to align my actions with that. So, that becomes the work, aligning our actions with what matters most to us.PAM: Exactly. Yet another huge layer is, okay, I've got these priorities. It's not sticking them on a post-it note and sticking them somewhere where I'll see them. It's, how do these weave into my days, my actual days? What do they look like in action?And I wanted to mention, it is not about trying to guilt ourselves into making choices that align with our priorities. If we find ourselves doing that regularly, I think that might be a great clue just to revisit our priorities. Apparently, the things that I want to do in my day don't align with what I thought my priorities were.ANNA: That's so interesting.PAM: So, just revisit them. What you really choose to do in the moment, you want to do in the moment, those outer voices, right? Am I doing it, because I think I should? Or is this something that feels good, that I want to choose, that I choose to do, that I want to do? And you want the things that you choose to do to align with your priorities, as well. They weave together so much.That said, though, it doesn't mean that the choices are always easy. Like you were talking about, they aren't often between a good thing and a bad thing, making the choice easy like, "Oh yeah, between this and this? No, no. This is definitely it." Often, it's between two or three lovely things, but that's where knowing our priorities can be so helpful.So, using your example, which I love, maybe after dinner I could take a walk with Rocco to reconnect, or I could clean up the kitchen a bit, maybe because it feels nice to me to walk into a tidy kitchen, or I could relax and read a bit. When I think about those choices, the first thing I might realize is that, those aren't actually either/or things, right? I could do them all over the course of the evening. And taking a moment to consider my priorities helps me put them in an order that aligns with them.So, maybe I have also learned that once I sit down to relax and read or watch a show, I often feel too tired for a walk after. So, there are a couple of solid reasons to tend to the relationship first for me. So, maybe our walk turns into us tidying the kitchen together as we finish up our conversation. And then we can each go to our own thing feeling refreshed and connected.There are so many ways that things can unfold. And keeping our priorities in mind helps us choose the path that feels more fulfilling to us.ANNA: Oh, my gosh, yes. And I think that's such a great point about, if you're feeling a rub during your day about, I want to do this, but it's not aligning with these priorities I've set out, if you're seeing that as a to-do list or a checklist and it's not feeling good, woo, stop! Just stop right there. And revisit and go, "Wait a minute, are my priorities really lining up with who I want to be right now in this moment?"And the thing is, they can change. Our priorities can change and they will as we go through different seasons of our lives, as we, grow and change and learn more things about ourselves. So, just looking for those little rub spots, I think, is important.PAM: Speaking of those rubs, sometimes there are emergencies. There are urgent things in life that come up and I may absolutely choose to do those things. And I may choose to step far out of my comfort zone and do some things, but it's the act of recognizing, oh yeah, this needs my attention immediately, very, very soon. I am going to do that. Priorities, again, it's not a rule.ANNA: No. Or a checklist.PAM: Choice is right there. But priorities, there's something that can help us make choices that, again, they feel fulfilling. They feel right. They feel good to us. They help us when we come to a point where there are various possibilities for the next moment.So, I just think they are so valuable for us to recognize, because sometimes, too, our priorities may look quite mundane. Like relationships. "I see these people every day! Of course I'm in relationship with them. They live down the hall, they sleep down the hall." So, it can feel like, why is it even worth making that a priority? But that's the fun part. That's why it's so valuable to think about it, to think about the kind of person that I want to be, the kind of parent I want to be, the kind of partner I want to be. And when we're thinking about it, we've got it top of mind as we go through our day. As things come up, as things unfold in front of us, we can make the choices that feel better for us, so that at the end of the day, it often feels just more fulfilling really.ANNA: Right. And grounded, for me, because again, I think it's interesting. I think they inform each other. The choice informs the priority. The priorities inform the choice. And so, just that awareness, like you said, top of mind, bringing that awareness, that can really help us. It's a grounded feeling of like, I'm living the life that I want to live. I am being the person that I want to be and those are the things that I like to check in with myself about periodically. So, yeah, I love that.Okay, so, we are going to leave you with some questions to ponder this week.The first one is, how can you quiet the outside noise so you can hear your own thoughts, your inner voice? And so, this will be a big one, just thinking about, where are those voices coming from? What does it sound like for you? What does your voice sound like in contrast? So, just give a little time to sit with that and how you can shut those noises out.The next one is, what priorities make sense to you and why? Because, like we said, it's going to be different. There's going to be seasons. There's going to be things that shift around based on where you are in your life and what's happening.But, "Do they make sense to you?" is going give you a big clue as to, "Are they coming from outside voices versus, is it something that's really bubbling up from inside of you? Where do your relationships fall in your list of priorities? And I think it's just, again, it's the mundane in some ways, like Pam was saying. And so, maybe sometimes relationships fall off as we're thinking, "Oh, we've got this career thing we want to do," or whatever, which are all wonderful things. There's no good or bad here about what you're pursuing or doing, but it's just that check in. Where are they falling and is that where I want them? So, I think that's just important to look at.Next one is, are your day-to-day actions lining up with your priorities? What changes, if any, would you make? And that's what we're talking about, is you're looking at the different choices you're making throughout the day. Does it line up with your priorities? And again, keep in mind that it could be that the priorities need to change, or maybe you want to check in about your priorities as you're making your choices. So, those, again, work together.Do any of your priorities depend on other people's actions and choices? And, if so, is there a way you could tweak them so that they focus on what you can control? And this goes back to what we were saying about nobody else wanting us to put our priorities on them. It's that same kind of thing, because it's like, if we are expecting someone else to move along with our priorities, it's pretty much a recipe for upset or disconnection, because they're going to have their own path there. So, really tuning into, are my priorities in alignment with me and things that I can control?And, for me, what that looks like a lot of times is, am I being the person I want to be? So, my priority may be about a relationship that does involve somebody else, but what I control is how I show up for the relationship.PAM: Exactly. Yeah. We don't have control of how other people show up, but we can also be a wonderful model, as in, this is how we choose.ANNA: Absolutely. So, check out the show notes for things we've mentioned in the episode, the episode transcript, and a link to download the PDF of today's questions. We'd love to hear what you discover. You can share your thoughts on a comment on the website or our episode post on Instagram @LivingJoyfullyPodcast. You'll find that link in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for being here with us, and we'll see you next time.PAM: Bye.

jobs priorities foundations anna it anna oh

433: Techie Staffing with Anna Spearman

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 28, 2022 50:53

Anna Spearman is the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients. Chad talks with Anna about founding and growing the company, immediately after graduating college, during a pandemic, reputation building, and facing skepticism around her lack of track record in recruiting, and finding and providing talent for clients as a white-glove service. Techie Staffing (https://techiestaffing.com/) Follow Techie Staffing on Twitter (https://twitter.com/StaffingTechie), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/techiestaffing), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/techiestaffing/) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/techie-staffing/). Follow Anna on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/annaspearman/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Anna Spearman, the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients. Anna, thanks so much for joining me. ANNA: Thank you so much for inviting me, Chad. CHAD: In theory, at the surface level, Techie Staffing is probably fairly straightforward in terms of what you do. But I'm curious how you got started. ANNA: Yes, of course. So I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's been two years. Two years ago, I was, during that time, attending the University of Virginia, where I was majoring in computer science with a minor in entrepreneurship. And in the spring of 2020, I was planning on coming back home to...I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and I was planning to come back home for spring break. And I was finishing out my second semester of senior year. So I was planning my [chuckles] victory lap of going back home, taking a little bit of a rest time, and then coming back to UVA to finish my degree, graduate, and move on to a new job in Los Angeles. But unfortunately, as my plane was landing in Los Angeles, we kept hearing about COVID. And so the pandemic hit in the middle of my spring break. And during that time, I had to finish my second semester of senior year remote. It was very stressful, but when I finished the degree, I was so fulfilled. But unfortunately, there was a rapid dwindling of entry-level tech and product roles. I initially either wanted to be a software engineer or a product manager or be a software engineer that transitioned into a technical product manager. But unfortunately, once the pandemic hit, companies weren't willing to ramp up entry-level talent. Companies didn't really know what was going to happen in the future, and everybody was remote. So it was just a really confusing time. But while I was searching through different job boards trying to find new opportunities, especially entry-level opportunities, I found just a wealth of senior tech jobs, specifically with companies that were thriving due to the pandemic. During that time, companies like Peloton, Discord, Zoom, they were all soaring due to the pandemic. So I had heard about contingent recruiting in the past. My biggest dream for a new opportunity for myself graduating out of college was just to learn something new every day because I've always had a very much an interdisciplinary background. I've never been able to stay in one area. I've always loved to try different things. So with a little bit of a background recruiting at a past summer internship as well as wanting to utilize my entrepreneurship minor...I'm actually a fourth-generation woman entrepreneur. So definitely, growing up, creating my own business was my dream. So really, that was my main goal. I thought I was going to transition from a current role into entrepreneurship, but I had my back against the wall. So I just thought, why not start now? So I created Techie Staffing, a technology staffing agency specializing in direct hire placements nationwide. I basically had my virtual graduation; then I took a week. And then, I got started creating the website, establishing the business paperwork, as well as developing strategic partnerships with senior technical recruiters that had full candidate pipelines to fill incoming job requisitions. And I basically started off with nothing. I had no contacts, no network, just nothing at all. And I was really starting just fresh. So I really had to really spend a lot of time networking and developing relationships as well as just learning and mastering full lifecycle recruiting, especially with engineering since there's such a supply and demand issue for software engineers. So you're just consistently following up and contacting people that could potentially be interested in your companies. But it really blew up. As I was establishing everything in 2020 from summer to the end of 2020, it was 2021 when it really blew up where I contacted this founder during the time they had raised a Series B 50 million, which was amazing, and they were going through a hiring sprint. So we got connected fairly quickly. And with just great team synergy, we were actually able to place five people in one month, and it was frontend, backend, and full-stack developers. So that really jump-started Techie Staffing. And then after that, we worked with...we're now working with Fortune 500 companies as well as high-growth startups and really building a diversified portfolio, and we're also a certified woman-owned business which I'm so proud of because there aren't really a lot of women or even just women of color that are founders. So I was really happy to get that certification, really proud of that as well. I always say all the time to everybody it's super stressful, but it's so rewarding at the same time. And I do believe that it's honestly, you know, I know the pandemic has been super hard on people. And it's been such a change and such a shift. But there is still a part of me that is so grateful for making that pivot because I really found something that I feel like I really enjoy doing every day. CHAD: That's great. I really commend you on everything you've done so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to do in the future. You now have grown where you're multiple people on your team. ANNA: Yeah, so we actually hired two new people fairly recently. I did have one direct hire recruiter working with me. So now it's officially a team of four. I did develop the strategic part. I do still have some strategic partnerships as well because on that part, at first, I was partnering with recruiters that were independent, so who were a little bit more entrepreneurial so that we could split the placement fee. But it's still better to just have full-time employees. I'm so excited to have two new additional hires, and it's still new for me. So I'm really looking forward to growing together in terms of growing Techie Staffing and growing into being a full life cycle recruiter because it wasn't that long ago when I was in that same exact spot. And it's so amazing. It still blows my mind to this day how two years ago, thinking about interviewing candidates or selling to clients, and now what I've evolved in. It's been absolutely amazing. So I'm so happy to see their journey and seeing them transition into being technical recruiters and also making a pivot in their career as well, which that's still blowing my mind a little bit. I'm sure you know founding thoughtbot and really building that from the ground up. So it's just amazing seeing that infrastructure. It just really brings a brighter future as well. CHAD: So what kind of people do you look for when you're looking to add to your team? Are you bringing on people who have experience with recruiting? Or are you bringing on people who are transitioning into it? ANNA: I would say for Q1 and Q2 of 2022 and even a little bit beforehand, since there was a surge in demand for everything and tech companies were just scaling like crazy, there was very much a competitive market for recruiters, specifically technical recruiters. Because that's what companies were really looking for to scale their engineering and product teams. So it was very, very competitive to recruit for a technical recruiter. So now you see agencies now who are hiring people who can have the DNA for a technical recruiter but not necessarily have direct experience, which I think can be really, really cool. Because like I said, like two years ago, I knew absolutely nothing, and now I feel very much confident in the full life cycle. So I think that's really cool to have people be able to pivot into a really cool industry where you're really learning something new every day, and you're speaking to really interesting people. We specialize in senior up until C-suite, so yeah, learning from people who are senior all the way up to Director, VP. So it's really interesting. So when I was approaching hiring, I really wanted to find someone who had that DNA that can potentially transition to being a technical recruiter. And that DNA would be, you know, it doesn't have to be personality but just really interacting with engineers, just maybe being a self-starter. I would say great communication, and lastly, I would say just really hungry. Yes, I would say hungry. Because if you're really hungry and you're really willing to learn and be open, so openness as well, then you can really understand the rules or just the lifecycle and the process of being a recruiter, and then you can change people's lives. I actually had one...It was about a year ago, I was working with a Fortune 500 company, and I recruited this guy, and I led him through the process. And it was about maybe a month later when he told me I had basically changed his life. Him and his family were now moving to Atlanta, and it was a new role, and it was just a fresh start. And he was just telling me how appreciative he was of me, and so that really hit home. So I think for those two new hires, I'm so excited to have them get super engaged and be able to change other people's lives as well under the Techie Staffing name, of course. CHAD: You mentioned early on that you're contingent recruiting. So correct me if I'm wrong, but that means that you get paid when you place somebody, when someone gets hired from the company that hires them. ANNA: Yes. CHAD: But then you also mentioned that these people who you're bringing onto your team are full-time. So how does the compensation structure typically work for them? ANNA: Oh, compensation, we have them on salary, but they do have commission. So we wanted to really give; like I said, I want us to grow together. So I do provide commission for each placement they'll place just to really provide incentive. Like I said, it's so early. I want us to think of each other just as teammates and a team because we're all building towards the same goal. So just really wanted to provide incentives where they're really feeling like they're almost owning it full life cycle as well. Because like I said, it's early on, and these can be really strong pillars in the future. So there is salary, but there's also that commission as well to just really provide that incentive. And I know for me personally, incentive can be awesome, so definitely trying to provide that motivation and having them really feel like they're an integral part. CHAD: What's the harder part of your business? Or are they equally hard, finding new clients versus finding people who want to work with you on the candidate side? ANNA: On the business development side, I would say it was harder perhaps in the beginning because I just so was starting with nothing, really. I had just graduated from college. And a lot of agency owners they previously have maybe worked at a really cool tech startup, or maybe they've been working on their agencies for the past 5 or 10 years. They have previous years of experience, but I didn't have that. So I had to convey another method of just really networking, really meeting people, and just really knowing my stuff and having a handle on it. I know maybe a lot of people say, like, just fake it until you make it because then once you make it, and then you get that experience, then you can transfer that experience to new experiences as well. So at first, it was really just building myself up and building the Techie Staffing brand so that we could acquire those clients. In terms of the candidate side, I would say Techie Staffing, and one of the things and part of our brand that we love to portray is that we are the agency that has the companies with the best employer branding. Because like I said, with the supply and demand issue for the software engineers, it is so competitive to attract them to new opportunities. There are just so many companies that are contacting them multiple times a day. So there has to be at least a little bit of a shine or a little bit of a differentiator for companies that you're recruiting for. So we actually specialize in companies that are Series B and above that do have that established employer branding where engineers are really interested in joining that company, so that's just the thing. It's like really having companies that have strong employer branding and being able to follow up. Follow-ups are really, really important when it comes to engaging engineers because, like I said, it's just a super competitive market and just trying to provide them a great white-glove experience. There are some agencies that fall a little bit too close to the client-side where the client is always right. And there are some that fall too much to the candidate side where the candidate is right, but we really want to be a balanced middleman where we're just trying to find the compromise and find the best solution for everybody. So that's the real important part of it of just really providing them with a great experience and showing them that we care and that we're rooting for them. Because it sometimes does surprise me when candidates can be a little...maybe this is a part of me being new. But that's kind of an advantage, too, because I'm still paying attention to detail. That's where my computer science major comes in. It's like constantly trying to stay in tune with candidates and what they need, so just trying to provide a great experience in general. And I'm sure you feel that way with your clients. You're a consultancy as well where you're trying to be B2B and contact these different companies. So how do you conduct business development and really differentiate yourself? CHAD: We focused a lot on reputation building, so blogging, creating open source so that we don't need, fortunately, to cold contact people. And when we do, we're fortunate enough that they might already know about us. And so it's an easier conversation to have because they may already be reading our blog, or they may already be using some of our open source in their product. And so it becomes an easier conversation to have. But the majority of our clients actually come to us when they have a need because we're fortunate enough to have worked to be at the top of the list. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And I'm still doing that, just reputation building. With one of our Fortune 500, we're doing incredibly well with them to the point where we're filling their pipelines, and we have majority of our candidates in their pipeline. So that's what we're really working on right now is just consistently...and I know like with any business, you have to just constantly build that reputation. So I especially just try to provide a great experience for candidates because they can also be hiring managers as well, so just really providing that white-glove experience. And also, a cool differentiator we always like to showcase is like, I'm a computer science major. And actually, the two people that I just hired have a tech background. So it's not like tech is entirely foreign to us. We've engaged with programming languages. We've coded projects. So we do have some form of understanding when it comes to certain technologies or certain projects that certain engineers are working on. And that's what really gets me excited to speak with engineers because it's so cool and interesting hearing about them working on their projects and working on projects that directly affect me and the products that I'm interacting with. So it's so cool to hear about their...I can understand a bit. And so that's another thing we have with Techie Staffing is really finding people who have a bit of a tech background so at least they have a little bit of knowledge or an understanding of what projects and can be able to really share and convey that to clients that are looking for this talent. CHAD: You mentioned it's a really competitive market now. And as a company who probably has multiple clients, how do you minimize or how do you deal with the potential competition for the limited supply among your own clients? ANNA: Among my own clients, I will say that right now we don't have...for the roles that we're working on for each client, they're not very similar or too, too similar, which is a good thing. We would like it in the future where we could have the same role, but we can understand how that can be a little tricky as well. CHAD: And how do they differ then? Are they differing by the technology experience that they're looking for or the sort of level of the role? How are they different? ANNA: It could be technology, difference of the role. So, for example, for a Fortune 500 company that we're working with, we'll work more with UX, data science, data science roles, as well as...so UX, data science. And then for high-growth startups, mostly with them, they're really looking for back-end engineers, but overall just engineering so frontend, backend, DevOps. We are working potentially to do engineering or more engineering-heavy for our Fortune 500 companies. We have recently been working on a VP of engineering. So for Fortune 500 for now, we've been working more with leadership roles especially, and for high-growth, it's been more engineering IC. But we would like to transition that in the future to have it kind of...or have roles that maybe some candidates could go to this company, and some candidates can go to that startup. And then another differentiator could be or what makes our clientele different from each other is for high-growth startups, especially for engineering ICs, they're really looking for candidates that come from high-growth startups who just understand the current company where they are, and how they're scaling during that period of time around that series B and series C. That's the time to really scale. And Fortune 500 companies they can be open to startups, but for the most part, especially sometimes for leaders who need to have a certain amount of direct reports, they're more looking for people from larger companies. So that would be one way to kind of separate it and so we're not having candidates almost be where they have to compete with candidates within our own company. Because with the difference in the leveling of companies, there's just a difference in what kind of candidates that they're looking for. Mid-Roll Ad: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: url tbot.io/devops CHAD: When I was first starting thoughtbot, I really felt like I needed to take every client that we could get because we were just starting out. We needed to make money. We needed to build a reputation. And so, I felt like we needed to say yes to every client. Over the years, I learned that that was actually watering us down, and it made us less successful. And the more we were clear about who we were, and what we did, and what clients we were best for, the more successful we were. Have you gotten to the point where you needed to turn down clients? ANNA: Because I do such targeted biz dev, we will contact companies that we personally want to work with. But I will say in the beginning, there were some companies that were a lot smaller that, just like you said, you just felt the need to want to rack up a client list. And you just are ready to go and wanting to work with someone. It really motivated me to really take a look and really go deep into the type of clients that we want. So, for example, really, really early-stage companies can have a really, really hard time hiring because, like I said, employer branding is so, so important. And so usually what they'll have is maybe like mission, but they won't really have salary. Or they won't really have the employer branding of the company of candidates either knowing about the company or being able to search the company really quickly and seeing the platform that the company is building and seeing how strong it is. So it's really, really hard to recruit for those stages. I mean, it is possible, but it's just really hard. And then at the same time for these early-stage companies, they really want to, which I totally understand, you know, when you're having your probably 8th, 9th, or 10th engineer and being on the founding team, you really want a strong engineer because that's your platform, that's your baby. You don't want anybody that, you know, it could potentially maybe cause problems, or they really want somebody there they can trust. And so it's hard, you know like I said -- CHAD: But they might not be able to afford that. [laughs] ANNA: Yes, they might either not be able to afford it, or they also cannot interview fast enough in order to just get the offer in their hands. Because I understand they really want to have them speak to the entire team and have them have an in-depth process because it's very much an important role. But these candidates and startups are moving so fast right now where I will speak to a candidate one day, and he or she or they'll probably say, "Oh, you know, I'm passively looking. I'm not really actively looking." And maybe a week and a half to two weeks later, they're like, "Oh, I actually have two offers in hand." So it goes really, really fast versus earlier stage; it can just go a little bit slower because they're just really taking the time to go more in-depth and see if this prospective candidate is the right fit, which is totally understandable. But it was just really hard for us as contingent trying to find that candidate, that perfect candidate for them as well as trying to keep candidates warm and keep them interested when some companies just have like mission. So now, in the future, I've just really, like I said, Techie Staffing, we specialize from Series B and above. And I really just make sure during business development exploratory chats that I'm really going in-depth and making sure I understand the roles that they're prioritizing their time to hire. So if they have a long, long interview process and a really, really low salary in terms of the competitive market, then I may not be as interested in that startup as opposed to another startup whose interview process timeline could be about a week and a half to two weeks. And it doesn't have to be absolutely amazingly competitive base salary but just a fairly competitive salary with a great timeline for time to hire. So that's been my way of just condensing or just being a little bit more pickier in terms of clients in the future. Were there any certain clients for you where you started working with them, and you were like, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't have," that's now caused you to be a little bit more pickier for clients in the future? CHAD: Part of it was the kind of work. So we really wanted to be writing software. But just starting out, I also had a background in sort of IT support. And so, when I was reaching out, particularly to past clients, they might say, "You built our website. Now can you help us with purchasing a computer or setting up a computer network in our office?" I felt compelled to say, "Yes," because I felt like we needed all the work we could get. But by doing that work that wasn't really what we wanted to be doing, we were not only less happy in our work, but it was taking time and attention away from the work that we really wanted to be doing. The other was values and practices, which took a little bit longer to form a real understanding of what our values were and the practices that we believe in. But now there's a pretty clear list of the kinds of companies that...what we say at thoughtbot is that we want to work on things that deserve to exist in the world. And so there's a whole bunch of industries that they might not even be actively doing harm in the world, but they are the ones that we wouldn't work in. But even if it's just not a positive contribution to the world, it's probably not going to be something that we're excited to work on. ANNA: That's been an exciting trend, actually, to speak with engineers about. I've started seeing that trend where engineers are saying, "I don't want to create anything evil," or "I just want to do good." And that's been a really awesome selling point for some teams. It definitely is a cherry on top where engineers are really looking for social impact. And the cool part is they have so many opportunities that are coming towards them that they can really pick and choose which one. So to find people who are really looking for social good and just really mission-driven products is amazing to see. And I'm really happy with the work...I'm actually working with a data science team for AI ethics. And that's been really interesting hearing some people talk about their projects and hearing about how data can really not only just strengthen bias but also can just really produce results that can harm certain groups of people, which is so interesting. And it can be something so, so small that I haven't even noticed at all, but that can lead to a big difference. CHAD: Yeah, we've had several episodes about that. ANNA: And it's amazing. And it really is just a huge difference with something so small. And as a woman of color, I'm always aware of what's going on in terms of just ethical practices or just fairness and seeing bias. But in terms of data, seeing something so so small can affect just a whole group of underrepresented people is just amazing to see. But it's also amazing that people or data scientists are now aware of it, and now they're changing it so that it no longer...at least they'll be able to alleviate that bias. CHAD: I want to ask a little bit more about that, and then I want to talk about some market trends. But if you're comfortable, I'm curious; you already mentioned you were just out of college when you were getting started. So there was skepticism around your lack of track record in recruiting. And you've mentioned that you are a woman of color. And so I think as engineers, as people in the market, we probably have this image in our head of what a typical recruiter looks like in terms of attitude, and values, and demographics. And you don't fit that mold in almost any way, basically. Is this actually a positive for you now, or is it actually still hard? Are there companies that are actively seeking out to work with you because they want that different approach? Or are you still facing that skepticism? ANNA: I'm still facing that skepticism. I actually created Techie Staffing around the time of summer 2020, where Black Lives Matter, where George Floyd happened. And it was really interesting because I was entering the corporate workplace. I went to a really wealthy private school in Los Angeles. And I went to the University of Virginia. So I survived two PWIs which means predominantly White institutions. So I thought I had not seen it all, but I thought I had maybe experienced those experiences of bias and understood it a little bit more. But when I went to the corporate workplace and the diversity inclusion campaigns were happening, it was just really confusing because it's hard specifically for engineering and product specifically because it's so new that there is a really, really hard time to find diverse talent. That's why I honestly believe that it's just really trying to educate underrepresented communities to understanding all of the different diverse types of roles and opportunities that you can encounter in the tech industry so, for example, like UX, UX design, UX research, data science, machine learning, all of that. So I think I was more contacted or maybe was engaged in business development companies who were looking for me to do diversity which I think it kind of...and I am such a huge proponent for diversity. But it also kind of had my heart drop a little bit because I just felt like people were contacting me because of who I am instead of just thinking like if it was just any other agency, would I be contacted specifically for that? It was more just for exclusive searches, which can be very, very hard for products and engineering. I think in diversity and inclusion, we really need to focus on different departments and the different problems that underrepresented communities encounter with different departments. So it was just really hard, but in terms of companies contacting me because I am a woman of color owning an agency, no, that didn't really...and it's never really helped. I do wear it as a badge of honor because, like I said, I started out with nothing. So to start out with nothing and have to fight through everything to sit at the table and create something is amazing. My background didn't really help me. It was really just me, just constantly contacting people. And I was prepared for this because, in my entrepreneurship minor, they said, "You're going to encounter a lot of nos," and so I did. I encountered so many nos, but eventually, I was able to turn those nos into yeses. So now that I turned some of those nos into yeses...and I'm still encountering nos, but I still keep going and still building and building. And now I do feel a sense of pride now two years later where it is like, wow, I really did have to fight through to make it, and that's where I hold just a huge sense of pride. But no, it was not my background that really...the only thing that my background was maybe appealing was thinking like, oh, okay, I think you can do diversity and inclusion, which I don't want to be profiled in that way. I just want to be a founder who happens to be a Black woman instead of a Black woman founder. And so, I don't want to be contacted to feel like my race is a part of it. And that was interesting in the corporate workplace, especially when I was trying to navigate different, you know, how to speak, how to build rapport, or how to navigate corporate workplace conversations. And that's very hard to do with diversity and inclusion because you're fighting with, like, that's racism and misogyny. That's something really deep-rooted, and that has been here for years and years. So it's a really heavy, heavy topic. And that's not some really, really heavy topic that you really want to bring or a lot of people don't really want to bring into the workplace. So that was just hard to encounter. But overall, I so, so support diversity and inclusion. And the cool part is because I have this awareness and I know that diverse teams are better teams, whenever I'm sourcing, or one of my recruiters is sourcing, I'm just making sure that they have that in the front of their mind, and they're just trying to diversify their candidate pipeline as much as possible. CHAD: Well, taking it from the candidate side of things, I, unfortunately, I'm of the belief that the hiring process is really ripe for extreme, subtle unconscious biases or conscious ones even to have an impact on the hiring process. So, how have you navigated that on the candidate side? I'm sure you don't want to say anything negative about any of your clients. It's not about, oh, this company is racist. But I think do you agree with the premise that the hiring process at a lot of companies is ripe for some bias to creep in? ANNA: Of course. I mean, all of the time. And the part that's so, I would say, scary about it is that bias is something that you feel. It's not really tangible. You can't really grab it. I mean, it can be in writing, and [laughs] there has been stuff in writing. But it's very much kind of yeah; it's non-tangible. So it's hard to really call it out specifically of like, hmm, this candidate I don't know why all of a sudden nice to haves become must-haves. Why is there a shift? Like I said, there are different problems with different departments, but there are also different problems in terms of leveling systems, so leadership roles versus individual contributor roles. There can be a little bit more, you know, maybe there's a little bit more openness on the IC side, but with leadership, it can get a little interesting sometimes. But the hard part is it's not really tangible. So I really have to give it to diversity like DEI specialists because to have to navigate those conversations and really articulate a non-tangible thing is so, so complicated. So there are tangible things you can do, like having a diverse panel. But what happens if the company doesn't even have the numbers for diversity to have that diverse panel in the first place? So it can get really complicated in terms of trying to navigate the bias within the interview process, and we do try to do our best there, just trying to provide on our side because that's all we can do. It's really up to the companies in terms of their interview processes and how they are going to change it or maintain some stages. But for us, we're just trying to just submit diverse talent and really just try to provide that white-glove service for them and hope that that bias doesn't seep in. But like I said, it's such a heavy topic. And like I said, with corporate workplace politics, it can be so fragile and really interesting. So it's just hard to really take that and understand where it comes from or being able to even verbalize it. So that's where it gets really interesting. And so, I do hope that in the future, interview processes are changed where there is able to be a diverse panel, or there is a way to really be able to understand that bias. Because like I said, it's very complicated. And we don't want to claim that any company is specifically racist, but it's just understanding bias and maybe why there's a difference for one candidate versus another candidate, which can be really interesting. CHAD: I think the first part is recognizing that everybody has biases, and it could be anything. It could be, well, what happens when you come across a resume of someone that went to the same school that you did? What happens to that resume, then? And does that subtly influence how you review that resume? It has nothing to do with their race or the color of their skin or anything. So those biases can creep in, and you need to decide as a company is this something that actually matters to success at the company? Is this something that we want to be using when we make hiring decisions about who gets that first interview or who continues on in the interview process? For us, we've decided it's not, so we have a completely anonymous screening process where we don't even show the names of schools. We don't show the names of the companies that you worked at previously. We only show the positions that you held at those companies because we've decided that whether you have a degree or not doesn't matter, and the companies that you worked at previously don't matter. It's what you were actually able to do with that experience. ANNA: Oh yeah. I think that's actually amazing. That's a really great way of doing it. I always just try to tell hiring managers also to just open that candidate pipeline as much as possible because the number one way to really understand someone isn't really through just a piece of paper. Yes, we want to make sure that the resume is at least a bit aligned. And they have, if it's an engineering role, for example, the right tech stack or maybe the right technologies or the right kind of projects that they've worked on. But other than that, you'll be so amazed what can happen when people just hop on a call with each other. You can really find just that hidden genius in people. So usually, when it comes to just diversity, it's like just hopping on a quick call with someone, anybody. Like you said, there are so many biases, but just being able to talk to them and see them as a human being can really just surprise you and surprise everybody. So really just, I always say just find that hidden genius through engaging with someone. CHAD: Yeah. So you've mentioned time to hire is a really important thing moving quickly in today's market when candidates have a lot of opportunity. What are some other ways, either trends or things that are happening in the market or things that you see changing? ANNA: Well, honey, I'm sure, as you know, there's been a huge amount of layoffs that have happened. Like, recently, about 17,000 workers were laid off from more than 70 tech startups globally in May, and that's been about a 350% jump from April. So I will say it's just due to inflation as well as just the slowing of demand. Startups right now are just really trying to just cut corners and just really trying to just hone in on their runway and their burn rate. CHAD: Are the candidates that are being laid off finding new work quickly? ANNA: I'm not sure because it depends on the departments. We're working with engineering mostly in product. So it's really funny because as we are tracking the layoffs, we will contact candidates to see if they're interested in another opportunity. Because fortunately, for our client list, we haven't had anyone have a massive amount of layoffs which has been...we're so happy about that, fortunately. But we've actually contacted engineers. And it's amazing how strong the engineering department is. It does not seem like they really are...that's not a department where there's like significant layoffs because they just have to uphold that platform. So yeah, so it still is in terms of engineering surprising with all these layoffs. It still is just very much competitive because even the people who have or the companies that have encountered a large amount of layoffs those engineers are still wanting to stay or don't...there are some that may feel the need to depart at a certain point. But for the most part, they are staying. But in terms of how quickly, I'm not entirely sure in terms of for people that are laid off how quickly they are being hired because this is also within early-stage startups or not early-stage; they also have Fortune 500s too. But yeah, I'm not sure about that part. But in terms of engineering specifically, the jobs are still just growing. The projected growth rate for software engineers is like 22%, and data scientists is 22%, as well as web developers is 13%. So fortunately for us, as an agency who primarily specializes in engineering, there hasn't been a huge difference. But like I said, specifically with engineering, that time to hire is still super important because these candidates are still encountering offers quickly. And it's just a way to be competitive because if you're just the first offer, you're the first offer in their face instead of, let's say, they have two offers from another company and you're like at the last offer. It's such a big difference there. CHAD: Are you seeing a lot of remote positions versus in-person positions? ANNA: Yes, remote is still going strong. I have seen that now there is a little bit of a trend of some startups or companies where you know because I research companies every day...I'll go on Crunchbase, Morning Brew, VentureBeat, TechCrunch, Built-In. I'll go on all of the websites, and I'm seeing who got a fresh new round of funding or who's highly growing, or any new products that companies are offering. CHAD: You're seeing some companies say that they're hiring hybrid or in person. ANNA: I am seeing that on startups and companies' career pages, once they've acquired a new round of funding or they're scaling, that on the job boards, you'll start seeing only the headquarters, so just San Francisco or just maybe Boston instead of remote. So it's been a little bit more of a quiet transition because I remember when bigger companies were announcing it like, oh, we're going to transition in the office in February of 2022 or December of 2021, then there would all of a sudden be a mass exodus of people who were seeking remote opportunities. But I do still feel that remote is still going strong, especially for high-growth startups, you know, yeah, still going strong. There is the option of hybrid. With these engineers that do have these choices, 100% remote is really becoming a great selling point. I mean, I don't even know if it's really a selling point but just standard now. CHAD: So that's what you're hearing from candidates. Candidates want that. ANNA: Definitely, candidates want. There's been plenty of candidates that we've interviewed where they've said in terms of their...because we'll ask them what would be their motivation for considering other opportunities and potentially leaving, and then they'll say, "X company is anticipating us to transition into the office, and I just don't want to do that." Their commute may be an hour, and that can be two even maybe three hours out of your day where you're spending your morning driving and then spending your evening driving. So people just prefer to be remote. Or people are located now in the Midwest. They're going back to their hometowns where they're able to instead of like these big metropolitan cities where now it's really hard to afford a house, so they're going back home and being able to enjoy their family there. So definitely it is a standard and people are really interested in it. And for companies that are having employees transition back into the office, we've consistently heard that there's just a mass exodus of people leaving. CHAD: What have you seen compensation do over the last year-plus? ANNA: I would say for compensation, I mean, in my personal opinion, when it was super competitive, it was definitely increasing. Now I feel like we're working with a Fortune 500 company, so compensation hasn't really been too, too much of a problem. So yeah, it hasn't been as competitive. But I do remember when it was maybe around Q1 and Q2 2021 where there was almost this great rehire. And everybody was scaling, and demand was soaring where the salaries were just like, it just increased or were just consistently increasing. We were just so shocked at what some software engineers were making. But now, it seems to have potentially tamed a little bit. It's not as high as it probably used to be because we were working with that series B Company and their salaries were pretty good, pretty competitive. But all of a sudden, with the demand soaring and these engineers, it started getting even more competitive. Then that's when all of a sudden, you know, the first few placements were fine. And then, all of a sudden, each candidate, like I said, they would say they were passively looking and then the next week... And this startup their time to hire was actually really great. But even with this competitive market, it was still hard because, like I said, a week later, they would already have an offer. And their salary would probably increase like 20,000-30,000 from their initial target base that they were seeking to now what they were being hired from other companies. So it would definitely increase. But I haven't seen that recently as much. CHAD: Yeah. I think also the trend to remote changed compensation, too, because it leveled it out. There were people who if you were trying to find a job in Kansas and you were going in an office, that market is very different than the U.S.-wide hiring market. But now, candidates are on the U.S.-wide hiring market. And I think that that brought up the lower end of salaries. ANNA: Oh yes. Because at first, it was like okay, we can look for...it was 100% remote, which was great, and so they were like, we can look for people in the Midwest. But during that time, companies were paying San Francisco and New York salaries, and they were offering those salaries to people who were located in Kansas and Iowa. So you would have engineers who were deep, deep in the Midwest who were asking for in terms of target for those metropolitan city salary budgets. And they would get it, which I think is great as well, just they are doing the same work as someone who is located in San Francisco or in New York but maybe with less overhead, of course. But it definitely was a little bit more of a challenge. And you can no longer assume that somebody located in the Midwest that may have lower salary bands aren't at those metropolitan city salary budgets now. CHAD: Anna, thanks much for stopping by and sharing with us. I really I'm impressed by what you've accomplished so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to be able to do in the future. ANNA: Thank you. Thank you so much, again, for inviting me. I had a great time speaking with you, and it was so interesting hearing about your time being a consultancy. Because I know being an external vendor, it's really interesting interacting with clients when you're not internal. So that was really interesting hearing about the difference of clients that you're encountering at first versus now. CHAD: Yeah. If folks want to get in touch with Techie Staffing or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that? ANNA: So in terms of contacting me, I'll say the best way would be either our website so www.techiestaffing.com. Or you can contact me on LinkedIn; my name is Anna Spearman, A-N-N-A S-P-E-A-R-M-A-N. I'm always active on LinkedIn. So if you're seeking a new opportunity either on the candidate side or either meeting, help and engaging Techie Staffing as a scaling company to fill your engineering, design, UX, and product roles, you can contact me on LinkedIn as well as filling out the forms on the Techie Staffing website. And we also are on Twitter @StaffingTechie. So definitely contact us, and we'd be happy to hear from you. CHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Anna Spearman.

covid-19 new york director university founders black ai los angeles san francisco zoom dna black lives matter startups fortune george floyd iowa kansas companies discord midwest b2b dei candidates maintenance ux peloton staffing devops uva techcrunch ic techies series b mandy moore ics venturebeat morning brew crunchbase giant robots spearman pwis chad pytel anna it anna yeah anna oh anna so anna well anna thank

(Re)write Your Story

Mood Ring

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 23, 2022 21:29

Host Anna Borges (The More Or Less Definitive Guide to Self-Care) is joined by Dr. Renee Lemus and Dr. Christina Rose–hosts of Las Doctoras podcast–about rewriting the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and rewiring the messaging that comes from the world about who we're allowed to be. Follow Mood Ring @moodringshow Follow Anna @annabroges Follow Las Doctoras podcast online at lasdoctoras.net. Mood Ring is a production of American Public Media and Pizza Shark! Full Transcript Anna Borges: Let's kick things off by reading an old journal entry of mine from freshman year of high school. And I guess that comes with all of the disclaimers that you would expect. [sighs] All right… I wrote… I need to get my shit together. It sounds so easy, but why have I always failed so miserably? I don't know how I let myself get so far behind, or why I can't delay instant gratification, or when I got so fucking lazy. I know what I have to do. Why can't I just do it? What is wrong with me? I know I only wrote that in freshman year of high school because of the date at the top of the page. Because to be honest, like, I've probably written some variation of that a hundred times over in the decade and a half since then. And maybe you have too? Berating yourself for something - for not being good enough, or fast enough, or a million other things. And for me, it was my inability to focus, to accomplish my goals, to function, basically, the way that I thought I should be able to function because it seemed like everyone BUT ME could do it. It was a recurring subplot in my journals for years. And then, eventually—like 15 years later eventually—I got diagnosed with ADHD. THEME MUSIC [laughs] So…yeah. Which, that cleared a lot of things up in hindsight. And while I felt some relief at having an explanation, I also felt this, like, sense of grief for this person I thought I knew. Like, how could it be that all of these core beliefs about myself, as unkind as they were, were suddenly just…wrong? What do you do when you discover you've been an unreliable narrator of your own story this whole time? Hey friends, what's up? I'm Anna Borges and this is Mood Ring, a practical guide to feelings—even when your feelings about yourself feel like cold hard facts. Every episode, we're exploring one new way to cope — with our feelings, with our baggage, with our brains, with the world around us. And with the unkind stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And today, we're talking about how the stories we've told ourselves about ourselves can burrow their way into our brains and impact our self-worth and even our whole self-concept. And a lot of those narratives come from messages we get about who we're supposed to be, or how we're expected to function, or how our lived experiences fit the mold of what we're told is normal or acceptable or right. MUSIC After my diagnosis, I started to wonder, like: how many of us are carrying around stories that we believe wholeheartedly, stories that tell us we're not good enough or smart enough or talented enough or worthy enough? So this episode is about stories. Stories we tell ourselves and stories others tell us ABOUT ourselves, and how we can do the work to untangle it all. To help us with all that untangling, I reached out to Dr. Renee Lemus and Dr. Christina Rose. Together, they host the podcast Las Doctoras and run a writing course that seeks to help students decolonize their writing and use storytelling as a form of healing. Through their work, they help people reclaim their voices and rewrite their stories in a way that's authentic to them. MUSIC FADE OUT Anna: Dr. Lemus and Dr. Rose, thank you so much for joining me today! I'd love for us to just dive right in and start talking about these narratives that we have about ourselves and where they come from. Specifically, it can be this feedback loop, you know? Of … stories that we've been told about ourselves that we then go on to tell the world about who we are or tell ourselves about who we are. So kind of a big question, but how does the outside world and all of the messages that we receive from it impact our own messaging? Dr. Lemus: You know we're, we're gender studies professors, right? We're women's studies professors. We're always going to have that feminist perspective on things and add that lens. I think a big, we've always named that a big part of what we do in our classes is to give language to our experiences, right. But I think we live in a world that wants to say that if we experienced oppression, it's our fault. It's something that we did wrong or we didn't do something right. And I think, or, or wants to gaslight our experience and say, no, you didn't experience that. Like, that you're [Anna: yeah] you're just being too sensitive. And so I think we always come in to say, like, to validate that experience and say, yes, you experienced sexism. Yes, you experienced racism. And to give language to things that we already know in our bodies, right. And, and validate those experiences as some, and to know where to place, not the blame, but to place our frustrations. And so I think for us, we, when it comes to our story, we can feel empowered to tell our story, because we know that … we're not the only ones experiencing it and it's not our fault. Right. It's not, it's not a flaw in us that we can't meet every need of our household and our children, because the structures of society don't give us enough support to do those things! Anna: I, I, I work with therapists all day. So like, I'm like putting the answer out there as though I know it, but like, I imagine gaining awareness of these type of narratives and messages that you've internalized has to be this first step, because otherwise, how can you start to rewrite them? And so how, how can we start to gain that awareness? Dr. Rose: Well we're learning, I think to check in with our bodies, you know [Anna: yeah!] I think our bodies can really tell us those things, you know? I think that, you know, again, that narrative that would have us basically sacrifice ourself for any cause, anything or just, I don't know. For, for labor, for, you know, the common good, for religion, for family and all these things. Really takes a toll on our whole being. And sometimes it is our body that can, can really give us the, the truthful and not like not, or a real, like it doesn't. I say, my, my body doesn't lie. You know, it's like the, the book, that, My Body Keeps the Score or something like that. But if my back hurts, you know, or if my shoulders hurt, like, that's undeniable, it's like, it's kind, it's not like I can, from this air, you know, earthy air perspective, kind of convince myself. I can just think about my feelings, right. We were talking about that too. Like, I actually need to feel them. I need to cry. And that's, so I know when I'm crying or I know when I actually do some things for my body that could be movement. It could actually be like artwork. It could be like meditation, it could be stretching. You know, I think that's, that's where I know I'm doing, I'm taking at least the first step, you know, and when my body talks to me and I listen, maybe that's even the, the, the step before. Dr. Lemus: If we're tired, we're tired. Right. And we're going to, so I, I definitely think it starts with really just a lot of self-reflection. I wanted to say, I think another important part of this is like, where do we start is community. [Dr. Rose: Yes!] Who you [laughs] you, you've surrounded yourself with, because I mean, and, and I would say like, for me, there's different communities, right, that I'm in, and some give me this certain part that I need and this other, you know. But I think again, when you're in academia, right, or in any kind of, let's say mainstream or even corporate or whatever kind of environment that you don't feel is like your safe environment. You need somewhere to feel safe, where you can let go, where you can [laughs] you can call and rant and say, oh my God, I experienced this thing, you know? [laughs] Which is basically what our podcast is, is just about ranting about things. But I think community where you can feel safe, where they can validate your experiences. Where you have very similar values. Where you're invested in the same things and feel supported so that … you're not always having to be productive. Where you can pick up where each other left off. Because I have community, I'm able to validate my experiences more and I'm able to feel empowered in my story more because I'm not being gas- like society's gonna gaslight us all day long. So when you have a community and somebody to say, no, yes, you deserve to rest or you deserve … it's okay that you're angry. Then that just, ugh, it feels like you can, you know, rest a lot more. [Anna: oh!] Dr. Rose: I just want to name that that's intentional too, like, you know? Just, you know, society, or like the Western framework really wants us to be like an, like a disembodied head that just like, like does stuff, you know, produces things… Anna: …and questions our experience too. Dr. Rose: And also yes. And it wants us to be isolated too. Like, it's, they do wanna create this abusive relationship dynamic where you can't reach out to your community, like you should handle this alone. So I just think those messages are real. And I just wanna, I wanna know, that everyone to know that it's not, you, you know, and, and liberating yourself from that, you know, reaching out and to other people and, and, and to your body is, you know, radical, radical feminism. Anna: It's really stuck with me, the point Dr. Lemus and Dr. Rose make about how these harmful narratives we have about ourselves can fester in isolation. Because I don't know about you, but when I'm alone, I don't stop to question the voice in my head that says I'm defective. I don't think to ask, “Wait, who's voice is that and how did it get in there?” And when those thoughts go unchallenged for long enough, that's when they become part of the story I tell myself about myself. After the break, we'll talk about what it means to rewrite our stories—especially when we've believed a different narrative for so long. MIDROLL Anna: Hey, welcome back to Mood Ring. I'm Anna Borges. Before the break, we were talking to Dr. Renee Lemus and Dr. Christina Rose about rewriting the self-destructive stories we tell ourselves. Let's get back to it. Anna: I like to say in therapy and like, you know, when we talk about stuff like narrative therapy, for example, which is kind of like the brain process that I, I, I followed for this episode, but. I like to say when my therapist and I talk about doing this kind of exercise of like rewriting my story, I get super overwhelmed, trying to figure out, I'm like, which part of my story, whose story, what, what does rewriting it mean? How do I write my story? Dr. Lemus: Yeah, this is, this is where, I mean, we would say, this is where ceremony comes in. This is where, writing is the small part of it, right. It's to say, first, you have to be present in your body. Right. So whatever that means to you, whether it's meditation, whether it's dancing, whether it's… doing some art, like, whatever that looks like to you, that it means to be present in your body. Kind of letting go of [Dr. Rose: past] you know, all the other things. Yeah. And just being in the moment. So part of my meditation practice, and part of something that Christine and I do in our courses, in our meditation or our like grounding centering practices is to call in our ancestors, is to call in whatever spiritual guides, you know, you're down with. And, or even calling in our inner child. [Anna: yeah] Calling in our higher self. Right. All of those, all the parts of us that sometimes we forget. Our imagination. Like, that's a big thing that we do in our courses is we think that … [Dr. Rose: Intuition] Intuition, like we think, like kids are so imaginative they're so in their imagination. And then at some point we let that go, cuz we think we have to be realistic. And so we're like, how can we tap back into that? And so it's, it's yeah. It's getting centered, you know, calling in maybe whatever spiritual guides you have. And then just kind of, yeah. I start just asking myself, like, if I was interviewing myself, like, how's it going today? Or, you know, or maybe I am pissed about something and just like ranting. And, and what that does. And again, something else we do in our course, is we do like these warm up writing activities, just write without thinking. And many, I mean, you can, you can look up prompts, online, whatever. And in doing that, it gets those juices flowing. And then what you really want to write about kind of comes through, but it's hard to do that when you're like sitting cold, right. You're like, I'm gonna go write. And you're sitting there and you're like nothing's happening, right. Or I don't know what to do or- Anna: Or why can't I run this marathon right now? [laughs] Dr. Lemus: Yeah. And so it's to say like, give yourself grace, you know, it doesn't have to be perfect. Just kind of literally just write anything, anything. Sometimes I will even read something and I'll like rewrite just to have that … that somatic experience of writing something, even if I'm like quoting another book. And then once my body starts getting going, I, my, my voice starts to come out. Dr. Rose: And it doesn't have like an end goal either. Like I was even thinking, you could begin with recording your dreams, you know, in some way [Anna: ah that's a great place to start] You know, cuz I think, or even just listening, listening to your dreams, you know, and waking up and it could be, it could be like a journal. It could be written down or you could just voice memo it, like this is what I dreamed, you know, like that's a beautiful, that's a beautiful space of listening and hearing and listening and writing, you know, recording. Anna: Love that. So we've been talking about writing and now I would like to talk about metaphorically rewriting because for me, like I'm a big journaler and what I, what I've been thinking about a lot lately is when I journal that's often the first time I'm telling my story to myself, you know, it's like seeing my own thoughts in black and white and conversing with myself. And I also like to reread my journals a lot and going back and saying like, oh, okay, like, this is how I thought about this at the time, sometimes it's changed. And sometimes I'm like, oh, that is how I thought about it at the time. And how it's, I've been thinking about it ever since. And like, I would like to rethink about this thing that I was telling myself. And so I'm curious if you have any sort of like, if that shows up in like in your work, in like a literal way too, like how you literally rewrite or retell your stories yourself when you found out that the first one was not the story that you wanted to tell yourself. Dr. Lemus: I think it's just having grace for your own growth. Like grace is such a big theme for us is just like really giving yourself permission to just be where you're at now. I, that's what I tell my students. I say, wherever your relationship is with, you know, whatever, like the world it's, you know, it's not gonna always be like this. It's going to evolve. It's going to change and that's okay. You know, even your identity, right? Your relationship with your identity, that's gonna change. That's going to evolve. Nothing is stagnant. And so I think just giving yourself grace for what your story used to be. And, and, I was telling some of my students cuz we were rounding up the semester and they were like, oh I think I'm too confrontational. Cuz I, I'll call people out on too much. And I'm like, I'm too much. Anna: Oh, big narrative I see a lot. Dr. Lemus: And I tell them one, you're not too much. Two, I said, I was like that when I was in my twenties and I am much more discerning now of where I put my energy, but I am so grateful to my 20 year old self for being so confrontational with people because it allowed me to set boundaries. So I think it's like, yes, I have evolved. But I'm also really grateful for those times, those things that I did, or even those stories that I would tell myself because it helped me to, to evolve, right. Those, because I got those stories out of me, then I was able to like make room to process and grow. Anna: What's so funny is that's I think the process I go through when I reread by journals, you know, I think, I think of my past self in a certain way, usually like a not very nice way and like rereading how I was telling myself the story and the time, now that leads me to like that kind of thing. Like, oh, okay. Well my new story is like, no, I didn't used to be like XYZ, negative thought. There are too many to pick from right now, you know, it was actually this. So, Christina, what would you add? Dr. Rose: I was thinking of the danger of the single story, you know, this sense of that. And, and I'm, again, this world that we were raised in believes that even like we only have one narrative going on in ourselves, you know… Anna: Multiplicity who? We are one, never changing person. Dr. Lemus: Right, monolithic. Dr. Rose: And one of the exercises that we often do is, we, week six or something in our, you know, eight week course, we'll take a look at something we wrote in week one or two. And we'll look at it from a perspective of, like, a loving adult, which we are, you know [laughs] you know, coming to that, coming back to a piece of writing from a place of grace, I love that love. And as, and, and as if we were, you know, the, the parent of the person who wrote that or the caretaker or the abuela or the elder, you know, but from a place of the love that we give to other people, you know, the love we give to those that we take care of. And so I think that's a, so that … exercise is such a shift in perspective for me too, you know, because yes, when I do go through my journals, I don't do it annually. I do do it like, probably every seven years or so. And it is a big deal and I do cry and it is, you know, it is, and it's beautiful. And it's also like heartbreaking. I'm like mija, like what the heck were you giving your energy to that person? Like, like no more, you know, it's, it's a big lesson, you know, for me. And um, and I do try to make it a ceremony too, you know, because I need, in order to come from a place of love, often I need my guides, I need my ancestors. I need the spirit world to be like around me, those who love me, you know? So that's what I would add. Anna: Before we wrapped, I was going to ask if someone was listening and just was like raring to go start scribbling where they would start. But I, I love both of the things that you just outlined, whether it's expanding on something with curiosity or writing to, to your younger self, your inner child. Those both sound like great places, so unless you have something else that you would suggest to our listeners for like one last writing prompt, Dr. Lemus: One last one last writing prompts is to like, do an outline of a children's, like a children's book where you're the main character, right? Like, and what would her superpowers be or their superpowers be and what would their environment be like? And yeah. Anna: Ahhhh! That is, is so good. I, I wanna go do that like right now, but this has been such an amazing conversation. I wish it could go on for like two more hours. So thank you for, for joining me today and talking about some of my favorite things and sharing some of your beautiful insights that I wanted to go write about now. So. Dr. Lemus: Thank you. Thank you for having, for having us. Anna: There's a reason I think of my later-in-life diagnosis when I think of the importance of rewriting my story or how I tell my story. It's that, like, our understanding of ourselves is always changing. Or like Dr. Rose said, we don't only have one story. We're made up of stories, past and present, and rewriting isn't about like denying the truth of our experiences at the time or correcting ourselves in retrospect—it's about releasing the false narratives that we're still holding onto as true, you know, so we can make room for the stories we want to tell. And… I mean, I don't know about you, but I think the next story I want to try telling is that children's book Dr. Lemus was talking about. So…who else is in? THEME MUSIC CREDITS Thanks for listening to Mood Ring, a production of APM Studios and Pizza Shark. We're a new show, so it really helps if you rate, review and share this episode with your friends. You can even tag me if you're really into it — I'm @AnnaBroges on Twitter – that's Anna B-R-O-G-E-S … because Anna Borges was taken. We want to hear from you. You can get in touch at Moodringshow DOT ORG and click “Contact Us.” Or follow Mood Ring Show on Twitter and Instagram. You can also call and leave us a message at 833-666-3746. Mood Ring was developed by Kristina Lopez. Our executive producers are Maria Murriel, Isis Madrid and Beth Pearlman. Our story editor is Erika Janik. Mijoe Sahiouni is our digital producer. This episode was produced by Jordan Kauwling. And as you know, I'm Anna Borges and I write, host and produce this show too. APM Executives in charge are Chandra Kavati, Alex Schaffert and Joanne Griffith. And finally, our music is by Mat Rotenberg. Thanks again for listening, and I hope to see you next episode! MUSIC FADE OUT

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May 12, 2022 - National Limerick Day | National Odometer Day

GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Care Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 12, 2022 3:30

Welcome to May 12, 2022 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate rowdy poems and technology that has stood the test of time. Anna: There once was a man from Nantucket… Marlo: WHOA! You can't read that on the air. Anna: I'm just reading a limerick. Marlo: Okay, but we can't actually read a limerick. They're simple five-line poems with a set rhyme scheme, but they are usually…um…a little off-color. Anna: How about this one? There once was a man from Madras… Marlo: Stop! We don't want to know how that one ends. On National Limerick Day everyone can google some for themselves if they want. And maybe write some clean versions. Anna: Oh, okay. There have been so many technological advancements in the past century that sometimes it's hard to keep track. Inventions seem to come and go, especially in the digital age. But a few devices have stood the test of time. Like the odometer. This device was invented way back in 15 BCE by the Roman engineer Vitruvius. He rigged up a chariot wheel with a feature that would drop a pebble into an attached box after the wheel had turned 400 times—which was exactly a mile. At the end of a trip, the driver could determine the distance traveled by counting the number of pebbles that had dropped into the box. Keep track of how far you've come today on National Odometer Day. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

national invention bce limerick vitruvius odometer national day calendar anna oh marlo anderson celebrate every day anna how

Commanding the Council of the Lords of Thought with Anna Belak

Screaming in the Cloud

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 1, 2022 33:29

About AnnaAnna has nearly ten years of experience researching and advising organizations on cloud adoption with a focus on security best practices. As a Gartner Analyst, Anna spent six years helping more than 500 enterprises with vulnerability management, security monitoring, and DevSecOps initiatives. Anna's research and talks have been used to transform organizations' IT strategies and her research agenda helped to shape markets. Anna is the Director of Thought Leadership at Sysdig, using her deep understanding of the security industry to help IT professionals succeed in their cloud-native journey.Anna holds a PhD in Materials Engineering from the University of Michigan, where she developed computational methods to study solar cells and rechargeable batteries.How do I adapt my security practices for the cloud-native world?How do I select and deploy appropriate tools and processes to address business needs?How do I make sense of new technology trends like threat deception, machine learning, and containers?Links: Sysdig: https://sysdig.com/ “2022 Cloud-Native Security and Usage Report”: https://sysdig.com/2022-cloud-native-security-and-usage-report/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/aabelak LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aabelak/ Email: anna.belak@sysdig.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Today's episode is brought to you in part by our friends at MinIO the high-performance Kubernetes native object store that's built for the multi-cloud, creating a consistent data storage layer for your public cloud instances, your private cloud instances, and even your edge instances, depending upon what the heck you're defining those as, which depends probably on where you work. It's getting that unified is one of the greatest challenges facing developers and architects today. It requires S3 compatibility, enterprise-grade security and resiliency, the speed to run any workload, and the footprint to run anywhere, and that's exactly what MinIO offers. With superb read speeds in excess of 360 gigs and 100 megabyte binary that doesn't eat all the data you've gotten on the system, it's exactly what you've been looking for. Check it out today at min.io/download, and see for yourself. That's min.io/download, and be sure to tell them that I sent you.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance query accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service, although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLAP and OLTP—don't ask me to pronounce those acronyms again—workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time-consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Once upon a time, I went to a conference talk at, basically, a user meetup. This was in the before times, when that wasn't quite as much of a deadly risk because of a pandemic, and mostly a deadly risk due to me shooting my mouth off when it wasn't particularly appreciated.At that talk, I wound up seeing a new open-source project that was presented to me, and it was called Sysdig. I wasn't quite sure on what it did at the time and I didn't know what it would be turning into, but here we are now, what is it, five years later. Well, it's turned into something rather interesting. This is a promoted episode brought to us by our friends at Sysdig and my guest today is their Director of Thought Leadership, Anna Belak. Anna, thank you for joining me.Anna: Hi, Corey. I'm very happy to be here. I'm a big fan.Corey: Oh, dear. So, let's start at the beginning. Well, we'll start with the title: Director of Thought Leadership. That is a lofty title, it sounds like you sit on the council of the Lords of Thought somewhere. Where does your job start and stop?Anna: I command the Council of the Lords of thought, actually. [laugh].Corey: Supply chain issues mean the robe wasn't available. I get it, I get it.Anna: There is a robe. I'm just not wearing it right now. So, the shortest way to describe the role is probably something that reports into engineering, interestingly, and it deals with product and marketing in a way that is half evangelism and half product strategy. I just didn't feel like being called any of those other things, so they were like, “Director of Thought Leadership you are.” And I was like, “That sounds awesome.”Corey: You know, it's one of those titles that people generally don't see a whole lot of, so if nothing else, I always liked those job titles that cause people to sit up and take notice as opposed to something that just people fall asleep by the time you get halfway through it because, in lieu of a promotion, people give you additional adjectives in your title. And we're going to go with it. So, before you wound up at Sysdig, you were at Gartner for a number of years.Anna: That's right, I spent about six years at Gartner, and there half the time I covered containers, Kubernetes, and DevOps from an infrastructure perspective, and half the time I spent covering security operations, actually, not specifically with respect to containers, or cloud, but broadly. And so my favorite thing is security operations, as it relates to containers and cloud-native workloads, which is kind of how I ended up here.Corey: I wouldn't call that my favorite thing. It's certainly something that is near and dear to the top of mind, but that's not because I like it, let's put it [laugh] that way. It's one of those areas where getting it wrong is catastrophic. Back in 2017, when I went to that meetup in San Francisco, Sysdig seemed really interesting to me because it looked like it tied together a whole bunch of different diagnostic tools, LSOF, strace, and the rest. Honestly—and I mean no slight to the folks who built out this particular tool—it felt like DTrace, only it understood the value of being accessible to its users without basically getting a doctorate in something.I like the idea, and it felt like it was very much aimed at an in-depth performance analysis story or an observability play. But today, it seems that you folks have instead gone in much more of a direction of DevSecOps, if the people listening to this, and you, will pardon the term. How did that happen? What was that product evolution like?Anna: Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment, actually. And again, no disrespect to DTrace of which I'm also a fan. So, we certainly started out in the container observability space, essentially because this whole Docker Kubernetes thing was exploding in popularity—I mean, before it was exploding, it was just kind of like, peaking out—and very quickly, our founder Loris, who is the co-founder of Wireshark, was like, “Hey, there's a visibility issue here. We can't see inside these things with the tools that we have that are built for host instrumentation, so I'm going to make a thing.” And he made a thing, and it was an awesome thing that was open-sourced.And then ultimately, what happened is, the ecosystem of containers and communities evolved, and more and more people started to adopt it. And so more people needed kind of a more, let's say, hefty, serious tool for observability, and then what followed was another tool for security because what we actually discovered was the data that we're able to collect from the system with Sysdig is incredibly useful for noticing security problems. So, that caused us to kind of expand into that space. And today we are very much a tool that still has an observability component that is quite popular, has a security component which is it's fairly broad: We cover CSPM use cases, we cover [CIEM 00:05:04] use cases, and we are very, kind of let's say, very strong and very serious about our detection response and runtime security use cases, which come from that pedigree of the original Sysdig as well.Corey: You can get a fairly accurate picture of what the future of technology looks like by taking a look at what my opinion of something is, and then doing the exact opposite of that. I was a big believer that virtualization, “Complete flash in the pan; who's going to use that?” Public cloud, “Are you out of your tree? No one's going to trust other companies with their holy of holies.” And I also spent a lot of time crapping on containers and not actually getting into them.Instead, I leapfrogged over into the serverless land, which I was a big fan of, which of course means that it's going to be doomed sooner or later. My security position has also somewhat followed similar tracks where, back when you're running virtual machines that tend to be persistent, you really have to care about security because you are running full-on systems that are persistent, and they run all kinds of different services simultaneously. Looking at Lambda Functions, for example, in the modern serverless world, I always find a lot of the tooling and services and offerings around security for that are a little overblown. They have a defined narrow input, they have a defined output, there usually aren't omnibus functions shoved in here where they have all kinds of different code paths. And it just doesn't have the same attack surface, so it often feels like it's trying to sell me something I don't need. Security in the container world is one of those areas I never had to deal with in anger, as a direct result. So, I have to ask, how bad is it?Anna: Well, I have some data to share with you, but I'll start by saying that I maybe was the opposite of you, so we'll see which one of us wins this one. I was an instant container fangirl from the minute I discovered them. But I crapped out—Corey: The industry shows you were right on that one. I think the jury [laugh] is pretty much in on this one.Anna: Oh, I will take it. But I did crap on Lambda Functions pretty hard. I was like, “Serverless? This is dumb. Like, how are we ever going to make that work?” So, it seems to be catching on a little bit, at least it. It does seem like serverless is playing the function of, like, the glue between bits, so that does actually make a lot of sense. In retrospect, I don't know that we're going to have—Corey: Well, it feels like it started off with a whole bunch of constraints around it, and over time, they've continued to relax those constraints. It used to be, “How do I package this?” It's, “Oh, simple. You just spent four days learning about all the ins and outs of this,” and now it's, “Oh, yeah. You just give it a Docker file?” “Oh. Well, that seems easier. I could have just been stubborn and waited.” Hindsight.Anna: Yeah, exactly. So, containers as they are today, I think are definitely much more usable than they were five-plus years ago. There are—again there's a lot of commercial support around these things, right? So, if you're, you know, like, a big enterprise client, then you don't really have time to fool around in open-source, you can go in, buy yourself a thing, and they'll come with support, and somebody will hold your hand as you figure it out, and it's actually quite, quite pleasant. Whether or not that has really gone mainstream or whether or not we've built out the entire operational ecosystem around it in a, let's say, safe and functional way remains to be seen. So, I'll share some data from our report, which is actually kind of the key thing I want to talk about.Corey: Yeah, I wanted to get into that. You wound up publishing this somewhat recently, and I regret that as of the time of this recording, I have not yet had time to go into it in-depth, and of course eviscerate it in my typical style on Twitter—although that may have been rectified by the time that this show airs, to be very clear—but it's the Sysdig “2022 Cloud-Native Security and Usage Report”.Anna: Please at me when you Twitter-shred it. [laugh].Corey: Oh, when I read through and screenshot it, and I'd make what observations that I imagine are witty. But I'm looking forward to it; I've done that periodically with the Flexera, “State of the Cloud” report for last few years, and every once in a while, whatever there's a, “We've done a piece of thought leadership, and written a report,” it's, “Oh, great. Let's make fun of it.” That's basically my default position on things. I am not a popular man, as you might imagine. But not having had the chance to go through it in-depth, what did this attempt to figure out when the study was built, and what did you learn that you found surprising?Anna: Yeah, so the first thing I want to point out because it's actually quite important is that this report is not a survey. This is actual data from our actual back end. So, we're a SaaS provider, we collect data for our customers, we completely anonymize it, and then we show in aggregate what in fact we see them doing or not doing. Because we think this is a pretty good indicator of what's actually happening versus asking people for their opinion, which is, you know, their opinion.Corey: Oh, I love that. My favorite lies that people tell are the lies they don't realize that they're telling. It's, I'll do an AWS bill analysis and, “Great. So, tell me about all these instances you have running over in Frankfurt.” “Oh, we don't have anything there.”I believe you're being sincere when you say this, however, the data does show otherwise, and yay, now we're in a security incident.Anna: Exactly.Corey: I'm a big believer of going to the actual source for things like this where it's possible.Anna: Exactly. So, I'll tell you my biggest takeaway from the whole thing probably was that I was surprised by the lack of… surprise. And I work in cloud-native security, so I'm kind of hoping every single day that people will start adopting these modern patterns of, like, discarding images, and deploying new ones when they found a vulnerability, and making ephemeral systems that don't run for a long time like a virtual machine in disguise, and so on. And it appears that that's just not really happening.Corey: Yeah, it's always been fun, more than a little entertaining, when I wind up taking a look at the aspirational plans that companies have. “Great, so when are you going to do”—“Oh, we're going to get to that after the next sprint.” “Cool.” And then I just set a reminder and I go back a year later, and, “How's that coming?” “Oh, yeah. We're going to get to that next sprint.”It's the big lie that we always tell ourselves that right after we finished this current project, then we're going to suddenly start doing smart things, making the right decisions, and the rest. Security, cost, and a few other things all tend to fall on the side of, you can spend infinite money and infinite time on these things, but it doesn't advance what your business is doing, but if you do none of those things, you don't really have a business anymore. So, it's always a challenge to get it prioritized by the strategic folks.Anna: Exactly. You're exactly right because what people ultimately do is they prioritize business needs, right? They are prioritizing whatever makes them money or creates the trinkets their selling faster or whatever it is, right? The interesting thing, though, is if you think about who our customers would be, like, who the people in this dataset are, they are all companies who are probably more or less born in the cloud or at least have some arm that is born in the cloud, and they are building software, right? So, they're not really just your average enterprises you might see in a Gartner client base which is more broad; they are software companies.And for software companies, delivering software faster is the most important thing, right, and then delivering secure software faster, should be the most important thing, but it's kind of like the other thing that we talk about and don't do. And that's actually what we found. We found that people do deliver software faster because of containers and cloud, but they don't necessarily deliver secure software faster because as is one of our data points, 75% of containers that run in production have critical or high vulnerabilities that have a patch available. So, they could have been fixed but they weren't fixed. And people ask why, right? And why, well because it's hard; because it takes time; because something else took priority; because I've accepted the risk. You know, lots of reasons why.Corey: One of the big challenges, I think, is that I can walk up and down the expo hall at the RSA Conference, which until somewhat recently, you were not allowed to present that or exhibit at unless you had the word ‘firewall' in your talk title, or wound up having certain amounts of FUD splattered across your banners at the show floor. It feels like there are 12 products—give or take—for sale there, but there are hundreds of booths because those products have different names, different messaging, and the rest, but it all feels like it distills down to basically the same general categories. And I can buy all of those things. And it costs an enormous pile of money, and at the end of it, it doesn't actually move the needle on what my business is doing. At least not in a positive direction, you know? We just set a giant pile of money on fire to make sure that we're secure.Well, great. Security is never an absolute, and on top of that, there's always the question of what are we trying to achieve as a business. As a goal—from a strategic perspective—security often looks a lot like, “Please let's not have a data breach that we have to report to people.” And ideally, if we have a lapse, we find out about it through a vector that is other than the front page of The New York Times. That feels like it's a challenging thing to get prioritized in a lot of these companies. And you have found in your report that there are significant challenges, of course, but also that some companies in some workloads are in fact getting it right.Anna: Right, exactly. So, I'm very much in line with your thinking about this RSA shopping spree, and the reality of that situation is that even if we were to assume that all of the products you bought at the RSA shopping center were the best of breed, the most amazing, fantastic, perfect in every way, you would still have to somehow build a program on top of them. You have to have a process, you have to have people who are bought into that process, who are skilled enough to execute on that process, and who are more or less in agreement with the people next door to them who are stuck using one of the 12 trinkets you bought, but not the one that you're using. So, I think that struggle persists into the cloud and may actually be worse in the cloud because now, not only are we having to create a processor on all these tools so that we can actually do something useful with them, but the platform in which we're operating is fundamentally different than what a lot of us learned on, right?So, the priorities in cloud are different; the way that infrastructure is built is a little different, like, you have to program a YAML file to make yourself an instance, and that's kind of not how we are used to doing it necessarily, right? So, there are lots of challenges in terms of skills gap, and then there's just this eternal challenge of, like, how do we put the right steps into place so that everybody who's involved doesn't have to suffer, right, and that the thing that comes out at the end is not garbage. So, our approach to it is to try to give people all the pieces they need within a certain scope, so again, we're talking about people developing software in a cloud-native world, we're focused kind of on containers and cloud workloads even though it's not necessarily containers. So that's, like, our sandbox, right? But whoever you are, right, the idea is that you need to look to the left—because we say ‘shift left'—but then you kind of have to follow that thread all the way to the right.And I actually think that the thing that people most often neglect is the thing on the right, right? They maybe check for compliance, you know, they check configurations, they check for vulnerabilities, they check, blah, blah, blah, all this checking and testing. They release their beautiful baby into the world, and they're like, okay, I wash my hands of it. It's fine. [laugh]. Right but—Corey: It has successfully been hurled over the fence. It is the best kind of problem, now: Someone else's.Anna: It's gone. Yeah. But it's someone else's—the attacker community, right, who are now, like, “Oh, delicious. A new target.” And like, that's the point at which the fun starts for a lot of those folks who are on the offensive side. So, if you don't have any way to manage that thing's security as it's running, you're kind of like missing the most important piece, right? [laugh].Corey: One of the challenges that I tend to see with a lot of programmatic analysis of this is that it doesn't necessarily take into account any of the context because it can't. If I have, for example, a containerized workload that's entire job is to take an image from S3, run some analysis or transformation on it then output the results of that to some data store, and that's all it's allowed to talk to you, it can't ever talk to the internet, having a system that starts shrieking about, “Ah, there's a vulnerability in one of the libraries that was used to build that container; fix it, fix it, fix it,” doesn't feel like it's necessarily something that adds significant value to what I do. I mean, I see this all the time with very purpose-built Lambda Functions that I have doing one thing and one thing only. “Ah, but one of the dependencies in the JSON processing library could turn into something horrifying.” “Yeah, except the only JSON it's dealing with is what DynamoDB returns. The only thing in there is what I've put in there.”That is not a realistic vector of things for me to defend against. The challenge then becomes when everything is screaming that it's an emergency when you know, due to context, that it's not, people just start ignoring everything, including the, “Oh, and by the way, the building is on fire,” as one of—like, on page five, that's just a small addendum there. How do you view that?Anna: The noise insecurity problem, I think, is ancient and forever. So, it was always bad, right, but in cloud—at least some containers—you would think it should be less bad, right, because if we actually followed these sort of cloud-native philosophy, of creating very purp—actually it's called the Unix philosophy from, like, I don't know, before I was born—creating things that are fairly purposeful, like, they do one thing—like you're saying—and then they disappear, then it's much easier to know what they're able to do, right, because they're only able to do what we've told them, they're able to do. So, if this thing is enabled to make one kind of network connection, like, I'm not really concerned about all the other network connections it could be making because it can't, right? So, that should make it easier for us to understand what the attack surface actually is. Unfortunately, it's fairly difficult to codify and productize the discovery of that, and the enrichment of the vulnerability information or the configuration information with that.That is something we are definitely focusing on as a vendor. There are other folks in the industry that are also working on this kind of thing. But you're exactly right, the prioritization of not just a vulnerability, but a vulnerability is a good example. Like, it's a vulnerability, right? Maybe it's a critical or maybe it's not.First of all, is it exposed to the outside world somehow? Like, can we actually talk to this system? Is it mitigated, right? Maybe there's some other controls in place that is mitigating that vulnerability. So, if you look at all this context, at the end of the day, the question isn't really, like, how many of these things can I ignore? The question is at the very least, which are the most important things that I actually can't ignore? So, like you're saying, like, the buildings on fire, I need to know, and if it's just, like, a smoldering situation, maybe that's not so bad. But I really need to know about the fire.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: It always becomes a challenge of prioritization, and that has been one of those things that I think, on some level, might almost cut against a tool that works at the level that Sysdig does. I mean, something that you found in your report, but I feel like, on some level, is one of those broadly known, or at least unconsciously understood things is, you can look into a lot of these tools that give incredibly insightful depth and explore all kinds of neat, far-future, bleeding edge, absolute front of the world, deep-dive security posture defenses, but then you have a bunch of open S3 buckets that have all of your company's database backups living in them. It feels like there's a lot of walk before you can run. And then that, on some level, leads to the wow, we can't even secure our S3 buckets; what's the point of doing anything beyond that? It's easy to, on some level, almost despair, want to give up, for some folks that I've spoken to. Do you find that is a common thing or am I just talking to people who are just sad all the time?Anna: I think a lot of security people are sad all the time. So, the despair is real, but I do think that we all end up in the same solution, right? The solution is defense in depth, the solution is layer control, so the reality is if you don't bother with the basic security hygiene of keeping your buckets closed, and like not giving admin access to every random person and thing, right? If you don't bother with those things, then, like, you're right, you could have all the tools in the world and you could have the most advanced tools in the world, and you're just kind of wasting your time and money.But the flipside of that is, people will always make mistakes, right? So, even if you are, quote-unquote, “Doing everything right,” we're all human, and things happen, and somebody will leave a bucket open on accident, or somebody will misconfigure some server somewhere, allowing it to make a connection it shouldn't, right? And so if you actually have built out a full pipeline that covers you from end-to-end, both pre-deployment, and at runtime, and for vulnerabilities, and misconfigurations, and for all of these things, then you kind of have checks along the way so that this problem doesn't make it too far. And if it does make it too far and somebody actually does try to exploit you, you will at least see that attack before they've ruined everything completely.Corey: One thing I think Sysdig gets very right that I wish this was not worthy of commenting on, but of course, we live in the worst timeline, so of course it is, is that when I pull up the website, it does not market itself through the whole fear, uncertainty, and doubt nonsense. It doesn't have the scary pictures of, “Do you know what's happening in your environment right now?” Or the terrifying statistics that show that we're all about to die and whatnot. Instead, it talks about the value that it offers its customers. For example, I believe its opening story is, “Run with confidence.” Like, great, you actually have some reassurance that it is not as bad as it could be. That is, on the one hand, a very uplifting message and two, super rare. Why is it that so much of the security industry resorts to just some of the absolute worst storytelling tactics in order to drive sales?Anna: That is a huge compliment, Corey, and thank you. We try very hard to be kind of cool in our marketing.Corey: It shows. I'm tired of the 1990s era story of, “Do you know where the hackers are?” And of course, someone's wearing, like, a ski mask and typing with gloves on—which is always how I break into things; I don't know about you—but all right, we have the scary clip art of the hacker person, and it just doesn't go anywhere positive.Anna: Yeah. I mean, I think there certainly was a trend for a while have this FUD approach. And it's still prevalent in the industry, in some circles more than others. But at the end of the day, Cloud is hard and security is hard, and we don't really want to add to the suffering; we would like to add to the solution, right? So, I don't think people don't know that security is hard and that hackers are out there.And you know, there's, like, ransomware on the news every single day. It's not exactly difficult to tell that there's a challenge there, so for us to have to go and, like, exacerbate this fear is almost condescending, I feel, which is kind of why we don't. Like, we know people have problems, and they know that they need to solve them. I think the challenge really is just making sure that A) can folks know where to start and how to build a sane roadmap for themselves? Because there are many, many, many things to work on, right?We were talking about context before, right? Like, so we actually try to gather this context and help people. You made a comment about how having a lot of telemetry might actually be a little bit counterproductive because, like, there's too much data, what do I do well—Corey: Here's the 8000 findings we found that you fail—great. Yeah. Congratulations, you're effectively the Nessus report as a company. Great. Here you go.Anna: Everything is over.Corey: Yeah.Anna: Well, no shit, Nessus, you know. Nessus did its thing. All right. [laugh].Corey: Oh, Nessus was fantastic. Nessus was—for those who are unaware, Nessus was an open-source scanner made by the folks at Tenable, and what was great about it was that you could run it against an environment, it would spit out all the things that it found. Now, one of the challenges, of course, is that you could white-label this and slap whatever logo you wanted on the top, and there were a lot of ‘security consultancies' that use the term incredibly… lightly, that would just run a Nessus report, drop off the thick print out. “Here's the 800 things you need to fix. Pay me.” And wander on off into the sunset.And when you have 800 things you need to fix, you fix none of them. And they would just sit there and atrophy on the shelf. Not to say that all those things weren't valid findings, but you know, the whole, you're using an esoteric, slightly deprecated TLS algorithm on one of your back-end services, versus your Elasticsearch database does not have a password set. Like, there are different levels of concern here. And that is the problem.Anna: Yeah. That is in fact one of the problems we're aggressively trying to solve, right? So, because we see so much of the data, we're actually able to piece together a lot of context to gives you a sense of risk, right? So, instead of showing all the data to the customer—the customer can see it if they want; like, it's all in there, you can look at it—one of the things we're really trying to do is collect enough information about the finding or the event or the vulnerability or whatever, so we can kind of tell you what to do.For example, one you can do this is super basic, but if you're looking at a specific vulnerability, like, let's say it's like Log4j or whatever, you type it in, and you can see all your systems affected by this thing, right? Then you can, in the same tool, like, click to the other tab, and you can see events associated with this vulnerability. So, if you can see the systems that the vulnerability is on and you can see there's weird activity on those systems, right? So, if you're trying to triage some weird thing in your environment, during the Log4j disaster, it's very easy for you to be like, “Huh. Okay, these are the relevant systems. This is the vulnerability. Like, here's all that I know about this stuff.”So, we kind of try to simplify as much as possible—my design team uses the word ‘easify,' which I love; it's a great word—to easify, the experience of the end-user so that they can get to whatever it is they're trying to do today. Like, what can I do today to make my company more secure as quickly as possible? So, that is sort of our goal. And all this huge wealth of information we gather, we try to package for the users in a way that is, in fact, digestible. And not just like, “Here's a deluge of suffering,” like, “Look.” [laugh]. You know?Corey: This is definitely complicated in the environment I tend to operate in which is almost purely AWS. How much more complex is get when people start looking into the multi-cloud story, or hybrid environments where they have data center is talking to things within AWS? Because then it's not just the expanded footprint, but the entire security model works slightly differently in all of those different environments as well, and it feels like that is not a terrific strategy.Anna: Yeah, this is tough. My feelings on multi-cloud are mostly negative, actually.Corey: Oh, thank goodness. It's not just me.Anna: I was going to say that, like, multi-cloud is not a strategy; it's just something that happens to you.Corey: Same with hybrid. No one plans to do hybrid. They start doing a cloud migration, realize halfway through some things are really hard to move, give up, plant the flag, declare victory, and now it's called hybrid.Anna: Basically. But my position—and again, as an analyst, you kind of, I think, end up in this position, you just have a lot of sympathy for the poor people who are just trying to get these stupid systems to run. And so I kind of understand that, like, nothing's ideal, and we're just going to have to work with it. So multi-cloud, I think is one of those things where it's not really ideal, we just have to work with it. There's certainly advantages to it, like, there's presumably some level of mythical redundancy or whatever. I don't know.But the reality is that if you're trying to secure a pile of junk in Azure and a pile of junk in AWS, like, it'd be nice if you had, like, one tool that told you what to do with both piles of junk, and sometimes we do do that. And in fact, it's very difficult to do that if you're not a third-party tool because if you're AWS, you don't have much incentive to, like, tell people how to secure Azure, right? So, any tool in the category of, like, third-party CSPM—Gartner calls them CWPP—kind of, cloud security is attempting to span those clouds because they always have to be relevant, otherwise, like, what's the point, right?Corey: Well, I would argue cynically there's also the VC model, where, “Oh, great. If we cover multiple cloud providers, that doubles or triples our potential addressable market.” And, okay, great, I don't have those constraints, which is why I tend to focus on one cloud provider where I tend to see the problems I know how to solve as opposed to trying to conquer the world. I guess I have my bias on that one.Anna: Fair. But there's—I think the barrier to entry is lower as a security vendor, right? Especially if you're doing things like CSPMs. Take an example. So, if you're looking at compliance requirements, right, if your team understands, like, what it means to be compliant with PCI, you know, like, [line three 00:28:14] or whatever, you can apply that to Azure and Amazon fairly trivially, and be like, “Okay, well, here's how I check in Azure, and here's how I check in Amazon,” right?So, it's not very difficult to, I think, engineer that once you understand the basic premise of what you're trying to accomplish. It does become complicated as you're trying to deal with more and more different cloud services. Again, if you're kind of trying to be a cloud security company, you almost have no choice. Like, you have to either say, “I'm only doing this for AWS,” which is kind of a weird thing to do because they're kind of doing their own half-baked thing already, or I have to do this for everybody. And so most default to doing it for everybody.Whether they do it equally well, for everybody, I don't know. From our perspective, like, there's clearly a roadmap, so we have done one of them first and then one of them second and one of the third, and so I guarantee you that we're better in some than others. So, I think you're going to have pluses and minuses no matter what you do, but ultimately what you're looking for is coverage of the tool's capabilities, and whether or not you have a program that is going to leverage that tool, right? And then you can check the boxes of like, “Okay. Does it do the AWS thing? Does it do this other AWS thing? Does it do this Azure thing?”Corey: I really appreciate your taking the time out of your day to speak with me. We're going to throw a link to the report itself in the [show notes 00:29:23], but other than that, if people want to learn more about how you view these things, where's the best place to find you?Anna: I am—rarely—but on Twitter at @aabelak. I am also on LinkedIn like everybody else, and in the worst case, you could find me by email, at anna.belak@sysdig.com.Corey: And we will of course put links to that in the [show notes 00:29:44]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I appreciate it.Anna: Thanks for having me, Corey. It's been fun.Corey: Anna Belak, Director of Thought Leadership at Sysdig. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is streaming on the cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment telling me not only why this entire approach to security is awful and doomed to fail, but also what booth number I can find you at this year's RSA Conference.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

director university amazon state san francisco new york times phd michigan public security run council cloud honestly congratulations saas lords vc frankfurt screaming aws hindsight devops azure gartner thought leadership s3 rsa docker kubernetes commanding pci fud serverless unix 5x json tls mysql devsecops loris elasticsearch tenable rsa conference yaml oracle cloud launchdarkly dynamodb corey quinn wireshark materials engineering sysdig nessus minio olap flexera cspm oltp amazon redshift cloud native security duckbill group belak amazon aurora docker kubernetes anna it dtrace anna yeah anna oh chief cloud economist anna well last week in aws humblepod

How Authors Can Get Booked to Speak with Topher Morrison

Light Hustler

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 9, 2022 37:43

Topher Morrison has tips aplenty when it comes to authors getting booked to speak and it makes sense: he is, after all, the founder of Personofi, a firm that specializes in brand messaging for small business owners. He is the author of four best-selling books and was voted one of the top 10 business speakers in Tampa Bay. His extensive speaking career, spanning over the past 30 years, has earned him a global reputation as an expert in mass communication and influence. He has spoken for top execs with American Express, Microsoft and Google, just to name a few. In this episode, he shared so many gems I'd never heard before—including where authors who have never spoken before can get experience for a reel, the importance of a one-sheet, how to make a book into a speech by using the vignettes in it, why the opening of the speech should not be the same as your first chapter and how to sell your book while speaking without sounding like a douche. WANT 7 DAYS OF WRITING TIPS? GO TO WWW.YOURBOOKWRITINGTIPS.COM TRANSCRIPT: Anna: Okay Topher, thank you so much for coming to chat with me today. Topher: I am stoked. It's been first off way too long since we've chatted anyway. When did we meet each other, 10 years ago, maybe longer? Anna: Hold on. It wasn't quite 10 years ago, but this is sort of an awesome thing. I was thinking about it because there's a comedian that I used to know pretty well and I haven't seen him since then. I think it was John Heffron, right? Topher: John Heffron. We are still good buds. Yes. That's how I met you. Anna: But I think what happened is I saw him tweet about you. Or he told me directly. He said, "I know this guy, I work with this guy who's the best speaking coach." And I reach out to you and you were so sweet. And you said, "I'm going to be in LA. I'll just work with you." Or maybe you even said, "I'll come to LA." Topher: I can't remember. Anna: And I remember because I had this office at WeWork and you worked with me and you really helped me restructure a talk that I had and deliver it. And you are just such a sweet, sweet person and so good at what you do. Topher: Thanks. Anna: I'm really happy that you're here to talk about something I've never talked about on the podcast and my listeners are very much interested in, which is how do you convert a book into a talk? And how do you use the fact that you're an author to get booked as a speaker? So let's actually do it backward. Because as I always say, if there are two people that a booker is considering, and they're equal, but one has a book, they're always going to book the author. Tell me about that. Topher: Every single time they will pick the published author over the unpublished author even if the other speaker is a better speaker and has a better demo reel and is more entertaining. They will almost always, I guess I should probably preserve that, not be so hyperbolic, but they will almost always pick the author. Because there is this perceived notion in society that authors are experts. And that's probably rightly earned as well. At least if it's a good book, they probably are an expert in it and they took a long time, you know, you've written a book, it ain't easy. It's hard. So by the time somebody's gone through all that process, they are probably an expert. But it's a false assumption, but it is a societal assumption that the authors are the experts. Yeah. Anna: Yes. It's why we do what we do. Because a lot of our clients are experts, but nobody knows that because they've sort of been working towards their expertise, doing their 10,000 hours of work, and they need that book to show the world. Topher: Yeah, they're working on their craft. They're the world's best-kept secret because they're an expert in it and they are bonafide phenomenal and they don't have the book. And there's just no social proof. In fact, the scary part is that, especially in today's society, because publishing has become such a mainstream thing, nowadays the question people get is, "Have you written a book?" And you know, if somebody ever asked you, "Well, do you have any books? Have you written any book on it?" you know you're six months or a year behind if people are asking if you have a book and you don't. You definitely want to have one, no doubt about it. And the only anything better than having one is having two or three or four. Anna: Or eight like me, right. Topher: Yeah. Ooh. Anna: And, oftentimes bookers are quite excited to have a signing. So I think that that's... And/or a lot of speakers will gift their book or they'll say basically, "Hey, if you buy 200 copies, you don't have to pay me." Tell me a little bit about how that works. Topher: Yeah. So there are several different packages that you can offer as a speaker when you have a book, which is just what you just said. You have your speaking fee and then you will gift a certain number of books. Or you could have bought my book and I will speak for free. And something people might say, "Well, why is that important?" Because the monies to buy the books come out of a different account than the money to pay the speakers in large corporations. So they may have already blown their budget on their conference for their speakers, but yet they still have money in their budget for swag bags. And by the way, that's a great way to say, "We'll get the books in time for you to put them in your swag bags," and they love that as well. So it comes out of a different purse. And so, while you may have a budget that you have to stay within the speaker fees, the book fees could be added. And it's just a great way for you to have more flexibility and still get maximum dollars from that event. Anna: That's so interesting. I've never thought about that. And then, of course, if you have a business and let's say you one client is worth anywhere from a thousand dollars to a hundred thousand dollars, it is well worth the investment in the $3 a book or whatever it's going to cost for you to gift that. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Although, definitely don't gift it first, sell it first. And then if they don't buy, then go down to hard costs. And then if they don't buy, then you can gift. Start off with the price that makes you the most amount of money, obviously. Because like I said, sometimes these big corporations don't bat an eye. Remember this, the one thing I love to tell people when they're thinking about charging their speaking fees and like, "Oh, how much is the right fee and blah, blah, blah, blah," remember that the bar tab at a conference for a large corporation will outweigh your speaking fee by at least five times, at least five times. Just keep that in mind. It may seem like a big fee for us when we charge it. It is a drop in the bucket for these large corporations that are hosting and spending $300,000, a half million, $2 million, $10 million on their annual conferences. A $10,000 or a $20,000 speaking fee is nothing for these companies. Anna: Let's say I'm a first-time author. And my book, maybe I feel, because I hear people say this, not qualified to be an expert, even though I have all this hard-earned personal experience, but I don't have a master's degree or I don't have whatever, and I go, "Okay, I want to be a speaker." How do I start? Topher: Okay. And you don't have a book or you do have a book? Anna: You do have a book. You have your first book and you're like, "Okay, here we go with speaking. What do I do?" Topher: Perfect. Well, at the risk of sounding self-promotional, hire a speaking coach for one, because you could have the best information in the world and if you don't know how to present it in a palatable way, they're never going to book you back. So you absolutely want to do that. And by the way, you should probably get a media coach as well, because you're going to be asked to speak on TV or on the radio. And if you've never been in front of a camera or you've never had a microphone shoved in front of your face, it can be quite intimidating. Anna, you know this. You've done this for years. So for you, it's second nature. But if you can recall back to that first time you were on the bright lights in the camera, it's unnerving, right? And so you could have all the... The natural law of memory, it is inhibited when you are relaxed. It is enhanced when you're relaxed, it's inhibited when you're stressed. And nothing can cause more stress to a new time author than is the first time they're on a show. You could forget your damn name when you're on TV. So hire a media coach for sure or a speech coach. Topher: But beyond that, and I'm not trying to push my services either, I'm really not. What I'm saying, though, is that the delivery is as important as the knowledge. And that's the point that I want to make. Absolutely. Yeah. So you want to make sure you have that. Then once you do that, so the question is you're a new time... You want to break into the speaking gig, you need to have a one-sheet. It is the most important marketing piece for a speaker. It's more important than a sizzle reel, by the way, is the one sheet. The one-sheet is exactly what it sounds like. It's one piece of paper. It probably has your picture. It has your brief bio. It has a highlight of what you are going to learn in the keynote or one of the takeaways that the audience will get. And it probably has some quotes from people that are impressed by you that have some name notoriety that people if they were to see those quotes who go, "Well, if this person's saying they're good, they must be amazing." That's really all it is. Topher: And oftentimes, the one-sheet will make a bigger impact than the sizzle reel. Because the sizzle reel requires a computer to watch. And keep in mind, sometimes these board meetings where you've got the planner and you've got the board and they're all sitting around, they don't have time to sit there and watch 15 different speaker reels. So you're lucky if they'll watch it. They probably won't. What they're going to do is they're going to refer to the person who found you, who's [inaudible 00:09:02] and saying, "Hey, this is a great speaker. Here's their one sheet." And they look at it and they go, "Yeah, they look like they're smart. I like the photo. It was a professional headshot. It doesn't look like it's a stupid selfie." By the way, also be sure that you're investing in a good professional one sheet. And it just gives a quick highlight. That's oftentimes all they make the decision. They don't need to see the sizzle reel. Anna: I'm curious, so they'll book speakers without seeing how they speak. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. It depends. If you were referred to them, almost always they don't need to see the sizzle reel. If you're the one knocking on their door, doing the Oliver Twist, "Please sir, may I have a cup of porridge," then yeah, you might need to get them to watch the sizzle reel to know that you're good. But for the most part, you want to get your message out to as many people as possible so people who are on those committees hear about you and then they come to the committee and they go, "Oh my God, I saw this person on YouTube," or, "I saw this person on a podcast," or, "I heard this person on a podcast. They were amazing. I think they'd be great for our presentation." It can literally boil down to that. And they're like, "Yeah, good. Let's get them booked." Anna: Okay, but so then, and I remember how I solved this, here's the problem, you go, "Okay, I want to get booked. I don't have a sizzle reel because I've never spoken." So how do you get around that? Topher: Okay. Well, there are a couple of things. Nowadays, at the risk of aging myself, back in my day, it was hard to get video production. But nowadays, for crying out loud, you've got a 4k camera on your phone. You can set something up. It doesn't have to matter. Have a small event at your house if you have to, invite some people over. If you don't have a nice house, go to your friend's house who's got a nice house, I don't care. And do a quick presentation. Have it set up. The only thing that I'd recommend is that if you're going to set up an iPhone or a smartphone, don't use the microphone. As powerful as phones are in their high definition, 4k recording quality, they still suck when it comes to the recording of audio. So go get one... Nowadays, by the way, it used to be like an $800 lapel mic you'd have to get, nowadays, you can get it for 50 bucks, you can get these wireless lapel mics that plug right into your phone, you clip them, and the sound is just impeccable. It's beautiful. And just do something like that just so they know that when you get up in front of people, you're not going to stumble and fall and make a fool of yourself. It can literally be something as unofficial as that. Topher: But also, it's not that hard to get booked to speak nowadays. There are so many organizations from One Million Cups up to your chambers of commerce, all of the animal clubs, the Elks, the Moose, the Eagles, whatever. Those people are starving for speakers to come in. And just reach out to all of the local chapters, all of the local organizations that are in some level of professionalism and just say, "Hey, you know what? I've just published my first book. It's on this topic. And I think that your audience might benefit from it. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm just trying to get some exposure and some experience speaking in front of the stage. I would love to come out to your group and give them a 20 minute or a 30 minute or a 15-minute presentation," whatever it is that your keynote is, "And there's no catch. There's no sales pitch. I just want permission to record it so I can improve and do better later." And honestly, you could book yourself up a month straight with local chapters for organizations that are just looking for people to come out and speak to their audiences. Anna: That's an amazing, amazing tip. So let's say I have my book. How do I make my book into a speech? Topher: Okay. Remind me, by the way, before we get off this call, to share with your listeners some techniques on how to sell the hell out of their books when they speak without being a salesy, douche-baggy guy. So remind me to do that. Anna: Love it. Topher: So what your question was, how do you turn the book into a speech? So let's first break down what a speech comprises. A speech, the best analogy that I can give, and I'm going to roll credits to this, by the way, to a gentleman by the name of Bill Gove. Now, I did not learn directly from Bill. I learned from his mentee, which is a guy named Steve Seebold, and he's a good friend of mine. And Bill Gove by the way, is kind of like the grandfather of motivational speaking. He is the guy who started it all. All of the great speakers that we admire love today, most of them are trained by this guy named Bill Gove, 30, 40 years ago. And he had it so well. He said, "A keynote speech is nothing but..." I'm paraphrasing his statements here, "A keynote speech is nothing but a concert in spoken word." So you want to have, just like if you were to go to a concert, you want to have your songs rehearsed. You want to be able to know in what order those songs are going to be played. And you want to have practiced those songs so well that if something were to happen on stage, it wouldn't throw your game off. In fact, you could even improvise and play around with that a little bit and make it look like it's effortless. Topher: So think of your speech as a concert in spoken word. And your concert is broken down into short little songs. Yours are vignettes. And a great speech is made up of short little vignettes, no more than five minutes apiece, as short as 30 seconds apiece. And they are stacked together one after another, in whatever order makes the most sense for the flow and the feel of the concert, just like a concert. You want to start off with something dynamic, but not your best hit. You want to start off with something that just kind of warms up the crowd. And then you want to build up. And then at some point in time, you need to slow down and you need to relax and you got to put the ballad on. Because you can't have a concert that's just loud, nonstop. And then after the slow, then you got to build it back up again. And presentations have that same flow. I call it the charisma pattern, by the way, which is that there is a cadence to a presentation, which is you start off at a medium pace, you work up into a louder, faster pace, and then as you get louder and faster, then you drop it down to something slow and soft. Anna: It's interesting because a book, the best, the most effective way to do a memoir is to have your first two chapters be the bottom, the most dramatic, and then you move into childhood so that doesn't... And then you start going chronologically. And then around chapter eight, you catch up to whatever that first chapter was. And that's not what you do with speaking. Topher: No. Yeah. So interestingly enough, the same strategies and skills that make a great book a great book, do not translate into what makes a great presentation. Nor do great strategies and skills as a speaker in a live audience translate to being a great speaker on camera as well. There are differences between all of those things. But there are different environments. I'm glad that you brought that up. It makes a big difference. With the presentation, you don't want to start off with your best. You want to just kind of warm up the crowd a little bit. Because let's face it, they're still sussing you out. If they bought your book, at some level, they're kind of convinced. But remember, buying a book is this person has something I need and I want to hear it. But in a presentation and a keynote, it's completely the opposite. It's, "Who is this yahoo, and why do I have to sit here and listen to them speak?" Totally different market. So you kind of got to win them over. And if you go in too hard, too fast, you're like that guy at the bar who's just hitting on the girls a little bit too fast and too hard. Slow your roll, cowboy. Just bring it down a notch or two. Be cool. Anna: Yeah. You don't walk up and propose. Topher: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe you don't even walk up. Maybe you just sit there and just let them come to you. You got to know your game, right? Anna: Look at that. And so how do you know, do you need 10 anecdotes? How many do you need? Let's say this is a 10-minute speech. Do you need 10 anecdotes? Topher: Sure. Fantastic. Yeah. Listen, if you could do 10, I'll call them vignettes, because that's my language, but an anecdote is the same thing, yep, 10 anecdotes, 10 vignettes in 10 minutes would be an unbelievably awesome speech. Most people are not that well-rehearsed. They could maybe get two to three vignettes out in a 10-minute speech. Only a pro could do 10 in 10 minutes. And I always think back to, and I'm sure you've heard this quote, I believe it was Mark Twain, who said, "I apologize for not writing a shorter speech. I didn't have time." Or something to that effect. I'm sorry it was so long. I didn't have time to write a shorter one, or something like that. Anna: It's been attributed to so many people. Allegedly, it was a note to his wife, and who knows who he is. And it said, "I wanted to write you a short note. I wanted to..." Oh, you know. Yeah. That basically it's harder to do short than it is long is the point. Topher: Yeah, yeah. You get the idea. Same thing with the presentation. If I just wanted to tell some ideas and I didn't have them rehearsed, I would ramble on and on, I would get derailed, I would come back and I would be disheveled. And I would be like, "La, la, la, la." But on a keynote, you cannot do that. You have to have everything you're going to say rehearsed and prepared so you know how to do it. Now, the question is how many vignettes do I need for an amount of time? What I would say to that is this, it's not so much how many vignettes for a certain amount of time, it's just that do you know how much time each vignette takes? Topher: So create a vignette book with all the different stories that you have. And by the way, go into your book. This is back to your original question, how do you convert a book into a keynote? You take the best stories in your book. You bring them out of the book and you say, "Okay, what are the lessons or the big takeaways that this story in my book reveals?" And by the way, you could twist your stories just slightly to focus on something just slightly different. And one story you could have 10 or 15 different takeaways that you would use depending upon the audience that you're speaking with. So for example, oftentimes you'll hear keynote speakers, they'll say something like, "And we will customize the presentation to your audience." They don't. The good ones don't anyway. But what they do is they customize the takeaways to the audience, but the stories are always the same. And they're repeated the exact same way every single time with the right inflection because it's a song in spoken word. You got to practice it. But you do want to know what those takeaways and those lessons are. Topher: And then what I do is when somebody books me, I say, "Okay, well what are the current challenges that your company's dealing with? What are the things, what are the takeaways that your audience wants?" And then when they give those to me, then I go, "Okay, now what stories do I have that would fit into that category?" And then I'll apply that story to that takeaway. And then I just simply go, "All right, well, this is the number of takeaways," and I add up, this is a three-minute speech, this is a five-minute speech, this is a 30-second speech. And I add them all together and then I've got my presentation length. Now, sometimes though, your committees, your speaking committees, will go, "We just want them motivated. We just want them to be grateful that they're here at the conference. That's fine. We just want them having fun." "Okay, good. Then leave it up to me and I'll do my thing. How much time do you want me to speak?' And they'll say 45 minutes. And then you go, "Great." And then you go through and you put your song list together of all your different vignettes that add up to 45 minutes. Topher: Now, here's the cool thing about breaking a speech down into little bite-size vignettes. I have never in the history of speaking professionally in over 30 years, I have never, ever shown up for a keynote presentation where they have said, "Remember the agreed-upon time we asked you, that's exactly how much time we want you to speak." It has never ever, ever gone that way. This is always what happens. Once again, I'm speaking a little hyperbolic. I'm sure that I had one or two, but I just don't remember them. Topher: This is what normally will happen when somebody books you to speak. They'll come up to you backstage, usually five minutes before you're ready to go on, and they'll say something like this, they'll go, "Our next speaker is stuck at the airport. They're not going to be here. I know this is really last minute. I'm so sorry to ask this. I know we only asked you to speak for 45 minutes, but could you speak for 55 minutes?" or, "Could you speak for an hour and 15 minutes? If we have to pay you more, we will." By the way, they will say that too. But if they don't offer, by the way, that's fine. Just be cool. And they'll go, "Can you stretch it out to an hour and 15 minutes?" And then you go, "Absolutely. No problem. Because you know you've got a bank of other stories that didn't make the cut and you're just going to add a couple more of them in, not a big deal. Topher: Most commonly, though, that's not what's going to happen. Most commonly, they're going to come to you five minutes before your presentation and go, "Hey, I know we asked you to speak for 45 minutes, but the vice president just showed up and he's on a tight deadline. He's got to get on a plane. He wants to get on stage a little bit of earlier. I hate to do this to you. I know we asked you to speak for 45 minutes. Could you cut your presentation down to 30 minutes?" That happens, I'm going to say that probably happens, and I'm not exaggerating 90-plus percent of the time that's what will happen. And then you smile and you go, "Absolutely, no problem." You don't throw a fit because now you just know, "I'm going to cut a few songs out of my playlist and I'm going to get it down to 30." Whereas if you design a 45-minute presentation that has a beginning and a middle, and then I'm going to tell them what I'm going to tell them, I'm going to tell them and I'm going to tell them what I'm told them, the old Dale Carnegie speech stuff, which is just dead and done now, that doesn't work. Because now what do you? Do you tell the promoter, "No, I'm sorry. My presentation is 45 minutes. I have to do 45." Topher: No, what'll end up happening is you go, "Okay," and then you're like, "How do I speak really fast to get it done?" And then you end up going over and you piss off the promoter and they never bring you back. So yeah, take your best stories out of your book, make a list of all the different lessons or takeaways that could come from them. Create your vignette book, which is all a different story. And by the way, you might have five different stories for one point. That's okay too because you know what? They might have loved that point so much you need to drive it home again, and then you have another story as well. But that's the most time-consuming and professional way to build a speech from a book. Take your best stories, pull out the takeaways, build it based upon the takeaways and the time. Anna: And is it have a 10-minute, a 20-minute, and a 40-minute version? Do you think that's- Topher: No. I think you should just have 30-second to five-minute vignettes. And then when somebody books you, you go, "Oh, I got a 15-minute speech? I'm going to pull out my three best five-minute vignettes," or, "I'm going to pull out my four best three and a half-minute vignettes." And then you just add them up that way. Yeah. If you do it that way, you'll be golden. But that takes practice. It takes preparation. And unfortunately, most people... And by the way, this is just the mark between a professional speaker and a professional who speaks, there's a difference there. The professional who speaks is working on their slide presentation the night before. The professional speaker doesn't even deal with slides because he knows that they're a hassle and is going to entertain the audience with their stories anyway. Topher: So a couple of other things. The biggest misconception that I think people make that aren't professional speakers that have been asked to speak and it's their first keynote presentation and they're nervous about it, they think that they need to wow the audience with all of this great information and you're going to change their minds and their hearts and their lives with this dialogue. I think getting in perspective what it is that the keynote speaker does is very helpful. Your job, in my opinion, and I think if you were to talk to most professional speakers, people who run the circuit and they do this for a living, I think that most would probably agree, your job is not to change their lives in 45 minutes. Your job is to entertain the crap out of them for 45 minutes. Get them to laugh, get them to cry, get them to feel, get them to emote. Entertain them for 45 minutes. Don't try to change their lives. Topher: Which means you don't need a bunch of slides. You don't need a bunch of bullet points. You're not teaching them strategies and techniques and steps and processes. You're simply telling them stories and entertaining them. And if you do that, think about entertainment, emotion, don't worry about the content, don't worry about having them walk away with three successful strategies. Most people aren't taking notes anyway. Remember, they didn't even know who you were five minutes before you got on stage. So don't think that they're sitting there with baited breath and a pen and paper going, "Entertain me with your amazing words." They're just not going to be there. And I will say this, these smartphones have become the world's best feedback tool for speakers, because you will know exactly how good you are as a speaker based upon how many blue lights you see, glowing faces from the audience. Because they'll be on their phone. If you can see phones lighting up, you know you've lost them. Because they're, "Ah, screw this guy. I'm going to check my text messages now." And so they start- Anna: That's the worst. Topher: It is the worst. Yeah. Anna: But, speaking of the phone, I will say what I do to prep is I do it into my phone, then I listen, then I do practice again, then I listen again, then I practice again, then I listen again. I find listening when I'm practicing really, really as helpful as the practice. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. Now I will tell you this, by the way, technology has made our job so much easier as well. There's a difference between... By the way, as an author, everybody knows this, the typed word is different than the spoken word. If you just transcribe audio into a book, it's an average book. I hope I don't offend some of your readers, your listers. Anna: Yeah, they know that. Topher: Yeah. Don't transcribe your work. It just doesn't sound... It doesn't translate. Well, guess what? It doesn't translate the other way as well. You don't want to sit there and recite or memorize your book because that's not human speech as well. But I do believe that there is a need for a script when you're starting your presentation in your rehearsal. So one of the best strategies right now is to use otter.ai, I think is that software. Holy heck, that thing is incredibly good. So just hit record, start telling your stories and talking, and then it'll transcribe for you. And then you go through. And the strategy that I like is to take three highlighters, a green highlighter, a yellow highlighter, and a red highlighter. Topher: And I go through the script after it's been transcribed, and I read through and I highlight red, yellow, green, red is unnecessary dribble, yellow is, "I like it if I have time," and green is, "This is so good I have to keep it in the presentation." And go through the entire speech and just highlight it red, yellow, green, red, yellow, green. And if you're like me and you're being honest, you'll have mostly red, a lot of yellow, and just a few greens. When you're just talking a story out, it'll take 20 minutes sometimes. And you can edit that down to a two-minute story if you give it the time and the attention that it needs, for sure. Anna: So great. We have to get close to wrapping up. So how do you sell that book from the stage without sounding douchey? Topher: Yeah. Okay. I learned this technique from a guy named Tom Antion. He is one of the few people that when he sends me spam email, I read it because the man just generally makes me laugh. His sales copy is just hilarious. And this was his technique. In fact, I think he had a presentation called How to Sell from the Stage Without Being a Douchebag, I think is what it was called. I was like, "I love this guy already." Here's the technique. You have on stage your book, but you're not going to hold it up and say it's for sale or anything like that. All you do is you take one small piece from your book which is a really golden gem, and you just pick it up and you go, "Let me just read something for you real quick." And then you open it and you just read 2, 3, 4 lines, that's it. And just read it, and you set it down. You can say, "I just want to read something from my book." You can say that. But you just read it. Topher: But you're not saying it's for sale. You're not saying it's $29.95, but today you can buy a copy for $10. You don't say any of that stuff. You just read one paragraph out of your book and then you set it down, respectfully, it's a nice piece of art. Set it down. Yep. Don't just throw it off to the side. Set it down. And then you continue with your presentation. That's it. That's all you do. You just read one small... And what happens is people get obsessed. They're like, "I loved what he just read," and they make this assumption, "The rest of the book must be just as good." And they want to buy it. Yeah. And I will tell you, literally, I saw my book sales, I'm not exaggerating, they probably jumped 60%, maybe more. I remember calling Tom going, "Tom, you are a genius. I tried that." And every person I've told that to, they do this technique and they're like, "People were running into the back to buy my book." I'm like, "Yeah, I can't even really explain it other than I think they feel that was so profound, the rest of the book must be just as profound." Anna: And you're doing that thing where you're closing the loop, like how marketing people will talk about how you sort of give the first part so that people are psychologically very invested in whatever the ending is. Topher: Yeah. Well actually, let's talk about that. Because once again, going back to the biggest mistake people make because they want to give, give, give, give, give, just give so much value, so much content, so much information, if you have 10 steps to transforming your life, don't try to talk about all 10 steps. But here's what you could do. You could say something like this. You could say something to the effect of, "For the past 25 years, I've been trying to narrow down what it takes to succeed in speaking into the most succinct, small, and easy to get patterns. And I've discovered that there are five things, that if every speaker does these five things, they will hands down get standing ovations, sell books at the back of the room without having to sell it. And out of those five, here's the one that I want to talk about today." Anna: Oh, that's so good. Topher: Right. And now, you didn't say, "But we don't have time to go through all," or you say, "Here's five, but I'm only going to give you one today. But if you want to buy the others, you can." No, you just say, "There are five things. And here's the one that I think is the most relevant today." You make it like, "I picked this one just for you guys." And what a beautiful open loop. They want to know what the other ones are. And by the way, maybe that chapter one, that's that good thing, the big, whatever your 10 steps are, that's the one you... Be the good one. Anna: Well, Topher, this has been absolutely fantastic. Tell people how they can reach you. And this is reaching you for help converting their book into a speech as well as help training. Topher: Yeah, sure. They can go to tophermorrison.com. That's probably the easiest way to do it. Tophermorrison.com. Yeah. And I have a book on public speaking. It's called The Book on Public Speaking. I get to say I wrote the book on public speaking. Not being self-aggrandizing, it's just the name of the book. It's called The Book on Public Speaking. So they can go to their Amazon and get that if they want to as well. Yeah. But listen, I've got tons of YouTube videos for free. Listen, they don't have to buy anything. They can get a lot of my stuff for free. They just go to YouTube and search for my name. Anna: Except of course, by giving out these gems, you were doing exactly what you advise people to do in a speech, which is giving the gem so that they go, "Well, God, booking him and reading that book must just be even better." Topher: Listen, hey, I'm a squirrel trying to get a nut just like everybody else. So I'd be honored if somebody feels so inspired and they would like to do business with me. I would love that. But believe me, I'm just here because I think the world of you. I remember meeting you so many years ago and had such a blast with you. For you to reach back out to me so many years, I was just like, "Oh, this just made my day." I was just thrilled that you reached out. You made my day. Anna: You're the best. Thank you so much for doing this. And you know, you listeners, thank you so much for listening. I will talk to you next week. RELATED EPISODES How Do I Use My Book to Get Speaking Gigs? How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran Jess Lahey on Influencer Endorsements and Much More

god tv amazon google podcasts microsoft speak holy iphone eagles fantastic tampa bay public speaking moose remind mark twain american express wework allegedly dale carnegie entertain douchebags topher oliver twist elks get booked tom antion promote your book john heffron go to www anna it anna yeah one million cups topher morrison anna oh anna you anna so anna well

Meaningful Activities: Podcast with Anna Oh and Theresa Allison

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 28, 2021 42:31

Most studies in geriatrics have used metrics such as survival time or disability in activities of daily living as their outcome measure. Many palliative care interventions are evaluated on the basis of ability to change symptoms such as pain. But these outcomes represent a thin view of the human experience. What older adults and those with serious illness often care about most is being able to do the activities that animate their lives with meaning and purpose. Participating in meaningful activities is central to quality of life, and yet is poorly captured in most outcome scales. In this week's podcast, Ken Covinsky joins Eric Widera and I to talk with Anna Oh and Theresa Allison, two researchers who have taken very different approaches to studying meaningful activities. Anna conducted a quantitative study, getting a 30,000 foot view of older adults with dementia, disability, and depression's ability to participate in meaningful activities. Most people think that a good quality of life isn't possible for people with these conditions. Anna's study, published in JAMA IM, finds that most older adults with these conditions are still engaging in meaningful activities. Theresa's qualitative study, published in JAMDA, delves deep into the lived experience of older adults with dementia and their caregivers. She finds that while they have had to adapt to support participation in meaningful activities, the underlying sources of meaning have remained the same. Interestingly, caregiver stress was higher when the people with dementia they cared for stopped participating in meaningful activities. Helping people with dementia and caregivers adapt to continue to engage in meaningful activities is a creative activity that is at the heart of good geriatric and palliative care. -@AlexSmithMD

activities meaningful participating anna oh

Lady Chanelle McCoy: 'Banks treat us like we're illegal'

Play Episode Listen Later May 20, 2021 23:27

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Lady Chanelle McCoy – entrepreneur and former Dragon on Dragon's Den Ireland. We talk about her time on the show and the barriers to growth for the CBD industry. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more podcasts featuring Dragon's from the UK version of Dragon's Den. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Chanelle McCoy's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Lady Chanelle McCoy, entrepreneur and former Dragon on Dragon's Den Ireland. Born in Galway, she co-founded Chanelle Medical, part of Chanelle Pharma, which was founded by her father. In 2015, Lady McCoy and business partner Caroline Glynn set up Chanelle McCoy Health, an R&D led pharmaceutical company. From that came cannabidiol (CBD) range, Pureis CBD. She was recently ranked no 23 in the ‘50 incredible people shaping modern Ireland'. She was awarded the All-Ireland Business Champion Award 2018 for her outstanding achievements in business leadership. We'll be talking about her time on Dragon's Den Ireland and the barriers to growth facing the CBD industry. Anna: Hi, Chanelle, how are you doing? Chanelle: Good. Anna, how are you? Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited about our chat. Anna:Oh, of course, of course. So, listeners and viewers might not recognise you straight away. But they might have seen you before on the Irish version of Dragon's Den. Chanelle: Yeah, that's right. I'm Irish, home grown – from the west of Ireland. I've spent over 25 years in the pharmaceutical industry. I'm very lucky to get the opportunity to do Dragon's Den, the Irish version. Dragon's Den is owned by Sony Music, and they franchise that out to 27 countries around the world. When I did Dragon's Den, when I started the first year, Ireland was the first country to have three female dragons and two male dragons. It was a fantastic experience to do it. I definitely made a few investments. Yeah, so it was great. Smashing. So, based on your time in there, what would you say are the biggest differences between the Irish version and the UK version? I've only seen a few clips of the Irish version, but for want of a better word, it seems nicer – less cut-throat, I suppose. Chanelle: I mean, maybe that's more of a cultural thing as us Irish are quite warm and friendly, maybe. But no, I think that the fact that Sony Music are the owners, and it's a franchise, that the setting was very much the same, was very like this, the way we sit, and the seats and, and the whole kind of procedure of it as well. It is your own money that you're investing, that you have to bring that to the table, even though the cash sitting beside you is actually not real. We would record about seven pitches in a day. So you literally would have one after another, some of the pitches would go on for about an hour and a half, even though you only see maybe 15-20 minutes on the TV when it's edited down. The reality is you get no prior warning or visibility of the pitch that's coming into the den. So you're in between all this, like when the seven pitches are going on, in between that you leave the room, you go back backstage kind of thing. You wait until the room is set up, you come back onto your chair, the product is hidden, you've got no phone, you can't Google anything. And it's literally when that entrepreneur walks out of the lift that you get to know about the products. So, that's why the pitches would go on for more like an hour and a half, because this is your money you're investing, and you have to make a decision right there and then, whether you're going to invest or not. I mean, obviously maybe some people feel Ireland, the Irish was a bit tamer than England, but there were certainly a few of the pitches that we gave them a hard time with! The fact that it's every pitch is brand new to you. Why do you think that is? Is it more of like a production thing and gets an authentic reaction from you? Chanelle: I think it's twofold. I think that the entrepreneur coming in there pitching, knows that they've got this really short window to sell their story and their business to you. Those entrepreneurs coming in, most of them really need that investment to survive, and if they don't get it, their company will close, they're running out of cash, so there's from their side of the fence, they know that we have had no prior knowledge of their of their company. So they've got to pitch really well, from our side as well. That's the whole thrill of Dragon's Den is that it's instinctive, you have to make a decision right there and then, so that builds to the excitement I'm kind of the drama of it or the appeal of it. Absolutely. I'd like to talk a bit more about your time in the pharmaceutical industry, because it's certainly been a year for pharmaceuticals, for CBD and for the wellness industry as well. And there's so much to unpick with that. Starting off with CBD, the market has grown exponentially, it absolutely exploded, and it's becoming more popular with consumers. But there are still barriers to growth. Say for example, search engines, in my understanding, are reluctant to rank products with CBD and anything related. Tell us more about the barriers to growth in that particular market. Chanelle: If we look at where we've come in the last six years. Today, the CBD food supplement market in the UK is valued at £450m. Now to put that into context, what does that mean – is that big, is that small? If you look at vitamin C in the UK today, that's £115m. Vitamin D today is £145m so CBD today and we have eight million people that take CBD today in the UK. CBD today at £450m totally eclipses vitamin C and vitamin D together. But the exciting thing is that £450m figure will grow to £1bn in the next three years. We are delighted that our product, it's called Pureis CBD, and we're on the market over a year now in the UK and we're in over 1000 retailers. We're the first CBD food supplement company to command the UK market that's backed by clinical studies. And we invested over a number of years, we invested over £1.5m in extensive safety clinical studies, because that is the requirement by the UK Food Standards Agency, the European Food Safety Authority, because they say CBD is a new molecule in your body. We didn't take it prior to 1997, they want all these safety studies done. So, we just embarked on, while adhering to the legislation. We are the first CBD food supplement company in the world to use FDA-registered raw material. And that might not mean a lot to the consumer walking in off the street, but it means a lot to the pharmacists and the doctors. Because the FDA are the strictest food and medicine sheriffs in the world. It was great that we worked with our raw material supplier, and we were able to get that certification on our raw material. What's happened in the CBD industry this week [week commencing April 19, 2021], which has been incredibly interesting to watch it evolve. The Food Standards Agency, which are basically the governing body that look after the safety of food supplements, they set a deadline for the CBD industry this week that any CBD food supplements that wants to stay on the market has got to submit a dossier into the Food Standards Agency with a full suite of clinical safety studies. And if you do that, you are allowed to remain on the market. If you don't do that, you will be pulled off the market. And the Food Standards Agency this week published a list of the companies that are allowed remain on the market. There are only three brands on that list, and we are the first brand on that list. We are officially in full assessment with the Food Standards Agency, we're on that list, which is very exciting. Anna: How many were there to begin with? Chanelle: About 800. What will happen, as the weeks go on, there will be more companies added to that list. But if you're not on the list by June, you're off the market. But this is a very positive move. The UK Government trying to bring what is an unregulated CBD market into a regulated market, because this is all about consumer safety at the end of the day. And the issue with CBD is there are a lot of rogue traders and cowboys out there. That was validated by a paper that was published last year where a number of professors got together, they tested over 30 products that are on the market. The alarming results of that paper is that 55 per cent of products on the market today have illegal levels of THC. And THC is a psychoactive addictive part of the cannabis plant that you don't want in a food supplement. It's fine in the medicine space when it's released by a doctor. And also, of those products, 34 per cent of them have lower levels of CBD than advertised on the label. There's a huge issue with misleading the consumer and this is why the legislation has come in, because they want to clean up the market. So what you'll see over the next few months is you will see a lot of CBD brands will be pulled off the market, the market will consolidate and what will be left on the market will be very safe products that are backed by clinical studies. This will help demystify CBD and give us the really good reputation that it should have because it is not psychoactive, you do not get a high from CBD. CBD is not addictive. It's just got all the good healing properties. So that's in terms of a kind the market and where we are and how it's going to grow and with the legislation. What is really hampering the CBD industry at the moment and is really going to affect the potential growth and job opportunities in the UK, is we still have banks, financial services and payment gateways that will not trade with CBD companies. They treat us like we're in the porn industry, they treat us like we're illegal, so we can't open a bank account in the UK. We're dealing with lots of payment providers like Stripe, the two Irish boys, we tell them all about our clinical studies, we are fully ethical, we are now on the approved Government list. Computer says no, they will not support our business. You then go to the likes of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and you say well, we want to do some digital advertising and we want to run social media campaigns with our products. We have clinical studies here, we are very ethical. Again, computer says no, we don't deal with CBD companies. I think these types of institutions and these companies really need to wake up. They need to take their blinkers off and they need to think, ‘Okay, let's assess each CBD company as they approach us. Why don't we trade with those companies that are on the Food Standard Agency ‘Publish' list, because we know that they are ethical, they're safe. They've done their studies.' The London Stock Exchange has floated three companies recently, three CBD companies, one of them is the one that David Beckham's involved in. If the LSE is engaging and trading with CBD companies, well why won't other companies? What is the critical issue now is the Home Office. Okay, so the Home Office in the UK is the Government arm that is responsible for policing narcotics and drugs here – and what's been imported. Our raw material is manufactured in the United States. As I said, it's FDA registered, so it's really high quality. We are synthetically derived, so we are not taken from the plant. We have mimicked the DNA the plant, so it is not possible to have any THC in our products because we are synthetic. And the Home Office have said to us – now, this is not us, this is with every CBD company: No, you are not allowed to import your raw material into the UK. And because we bring our raw material into the UK, and then we get our products manufactured, our finished product manufactured in the UK. They say no, because your product might have THC. So we went to four labs that the Home Office use, these are independent Government approved laboratories, we got our raw material tested, we gave them the certificates, plus all our data from the FDA and said, ‘We don't have THC. We're synthetic, it's not possible.' And again, they're like, ‘Computer says no, sorry.' What's going to happen now is you're going to see a lot of people like us leaving the UK. We get our product manufactured in the UK, we had planned with the manufacturing company we work with, that they were going to create 70 more jobs between now and the end of the year, because now we are launching a lot of different markets outside Europe and Ukraine and Russia and China. And we need lots of product manufactured. Those 70 jobs now will not be created in the UK because we've got to go to Germany and Ireland to set up, to find a new manufacturing partner and set up our production there. That's happening now, right through the CBD industry, where there will be huge job losses. They are totally suffocating the growth of what will be a huge market – not just for food supplements, but for the pharmaceutical industry as well. So, you spoke a bit earlier about the difficulties and the resistance to the CBD market, especially in the UK. Of course, we all know that, especially since the transition period ended Brexit has caused some troubles as well, it'll be great to hear from somebody who is a major trading partner of the UK. So as a business based in Ireland, how has your trading relationship with the UK been affected by Brexit? Chanelle: I mean, it's very difficult now. And we are trading both ways, we are registered as an Irish company. And we are now registered as an English company. We get our manufacturing done in the UK of our finished product. But now, because of Brexit, we will look to have a second manufacturing site as well set up. Because when we hopefully get our European license receipt for our products, for Pureis, we will have a lot of challenges having the product manufactured in the UK, and then shipping it to the likes of Germany and France, because customs, tariffs, duty, is crippling. When we contact that customs and it's like, ‘Well look, you can get your customer to pay it, and then your customer in Germany can claim it back.' It is it is annoying for a customer to have to do that. And if they have an alternative to trade with somebody that's in a European country over you, they will do that, because they don't have that administration hassle when they're dealing with somebody else. It is very unfortunate that there is not a better trade deal between the UK and Europe. Also then bringing product in from Ireland into the UK, is very difficult. So what it has forced companies like myself to do is that when you're trading in Europe, you need to have a base in Europe. You need to move your manufacturing from the UK and position it in Europe, that is really the only way. When you're trading in the UK, what you need to do is set up a manufacturing facility in the UK to service your UK customers. That is a pity, because it has incurred a lot of costs for us we're trying to set up work with new partners, qualify them as a manufacturer for our product in Europe and also what it does is we now, for our European customers, we are now taking all our production out of the UK and basing it in Europe. The UK have lost out a lot. But no matter what way you look at it, upside down, inside out, that is really the only way because at the end of the day, this is about servicing your customer. It's about being easy to deal with in the eyes of your customer. And it's about not incurring costs in terms of extra customs and duty and taxes and all of that. So that's really the way we've navigated it, but I think if the UK had the chance again to vote to leave Europe, I certainly don't think they would. I've spoken to so many UK entrepreneurs, Irish entrepreneurs and our leaders, and they tell you that. Anna: So it wouldn't be the case where the UK is a significant enough market where the costs would be worth it on balance. Chanelle: I mean, what it just means now is that, if you want to trade with the UK, you want to supply product into the UK, you're better off to source it within the UK. And the UK might think, well, that's a good thing, because we're bringing more employment and more opportunity into the UK, because we're forcing people to set up to partner with manufacturers in the UK. But actually, your loss is much bigger, because Europe is much bigger geographically. And what you're missing out on, is companies like me, who want to service 28 countries in Europe, from a manufacturing facility in the UK, and we can't do it. We've spoken a little bit about your husband, AP McCoy. I noticed that in quite a lot of the bios and the introductions I read about yourself, that he's mentioned within that bio and is quite a significant part of it. And I wondered how that affects you. As you're a self-named brand, do you feel that your husband's presence and career kind of helps boost it? Or do you feel that you can't exist in your own right? Chanelle: I'm incredibly proud of AP and to go through his career, and to be the most successful winning jockey, and to be champion jockey for 20 years, and winning the BBC Sports Personality of the Year and be knighted by the Queen – it's a great legacy. It's a great achievement within what he has done. And he's been incredibly impactful to me. As I went along in my career, I was lucky – I met him when I was 19. I'm 44 now. We've done this journey together, where I've worked for my family business, while he was scaling the heights in his career. I suppose it was a great outlet for me, because, I had to work really hard, it wasn't like that I kind of floated through my job and I dipped out to go racing every week, it wasn't that case. I was very mindful of the fact that during that period, in our 20s and early 30s, that it was all about AP. Every time I went to the races, or you're out to dinner with people, everybody wants to talk about him. And that's okay, because it's incredibly dangerous what he does, it's very interesting when you get under the hood of like, the diet and the people he rides for, and all of that. I was very happy to go along, for like, 15-20 years, where people would always ask me about him. But I think, what was really where I benefited hugely, and it goes back to the environment you live in, you work in. His dedication, his will to win, his absolute resilience, definitely rubbed off on me and shaped my culture, shaped my values. He motivated me. That's why in the workplace, it's so important, as a leader, as a manager, that you are creating this environment, where you are inspiring, you're positive, you're giving people that self-belief because your behaviour as a leader totally rubs off on the people around you, and will become their behaviour – they will emulate that. He was a fantastic source of inspiration for me, because his behaviour kind of became my behaviour in the end. It was only really, when he stopped riding in 2015 and I started to do Dragon's Den, that people used to say to me, ‘You're on Dragon's Den, Chanelle? I mean, I didn't even know you had a job. I've seen you for years at the races.' And I'm like, ‘Yeah, yeah. I'm in pharmaceuticals, have been in here for 15 years.' So suddenly people started to say to me, ‘Oh, you're not just AP's wife then?' ‘No, no – I'm a human in my own right.' As AP said to me, ‘Chanelle, it's your time to shine'. I've been in his shadow, very happily in his shadow and supporting him, so he's incredibly supportive when I did Dragon's Den, and now with my own business, and trailblazing in the CBD industry, because we're the first with our clinical studies. We're the first to get on this list, the Government list that was published this week. He's very supportive and very proud. He's been a massive help to me over the years and has definitely been the driving force. Anna: Well, that seems like a good place to wrap up. Thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast, Chanelle – it's been wonderful. Chanelle: Brilliant. Thanks for having me, Anna. It was really enjoyable. You can find out more about Lady Chanelle McCoy at chanellemccoyhealth.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more podcasts featuring Dragons from the UK version of Dragon's Den. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts, follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lowercase) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

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Mark Wright: 'You say crazy stuff to be entertaining on The Apprentice'

Play Episode Listen Later May 6, 2021 22:09

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Mark Wright – entrepreneur, TV personality and winner of The Apprentice in 2014. We talk about work-life balance and maintaining a strong online presence for your business post lockdown. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on the pros and cons of business education. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Mark Wright's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Mark Wright – entrepreneur, TV personality and winner of The Apprentice in 2014. Born in Armidale, Australia, Mark’s entrepreneurial family inspired him to go into business himself. He was backpacking when, with £172 in the bank, he decided to get to an English-speaking country to start earning. After coming to the UK, he found a job selling digital advertising services. Unfortunately, he was unable to secure a bank loan to start a digital marketing agency of his own, so a friend suggested he entered The Apprentice instead. Since winning the show, he’s launched five businesses and is the only winner to turn over in excess of £1m within one year. We’ll be talking about stress management and maintaining a strong online business presence post lockdown. Anna: Hi, Mark. Mark: Hey, how are you? Anna: Yeah, I'm really good, thank you. How are you? Mark: I'm really good. Thank you so much for having me today. I really appreciate it. Anna: Of course, of course. How is it down where you are? Mark: Listen, it's pretty good. We're pretty lucky considering everything that's going on in the world. I mean, not compared to my family in Australia. They think we're like aliens over here in the UK. Anna: Oh, I know. I’ve got a lot of family in Brisbane and they were just going about like everything's normal and I'm just going, ‘I’ve forgotten how that how that functions.’ Mark: I'm so jealous. People always say to me, ‘Why are you living over here? I've always had a good answer, but I'm not so sure right now! Speaking of you coming over here, there's a little bit I wanted to know. In the intro, we've talked a bit about you backpacking and you coming to the UK to start work. I know that this backpacking adventure has been pivotal to where you are now. But I'm wondering, what was the intention of it when you set out? Was it part of your broader plan to become a business owner? Mark: Well, it's a bit of a sad story really. I was dating a girl in Australia, and I had sort of found my passion for digital marketing, had my self-discovery of what I was going to do in life. And then I got my heart broken. I decided the best revenge was to go out and get out in the world. I got my backpack, packed it up with like three pairs of jeans, a couple of shirts, and off I went around the UK and around Europe, as a backpacker. And it started off as a well-intentioned holiday, with the view of being a tour guide, having some fun, seeing the world, seeing some different cultures. I loved it. I visited London, I fell in love with London, I love the UK. As I continued my travels, and started to run out of money, I decided I loved London, so why not go back there? I felt pulled, it had some good energy. I'm a big believer in getting those feelings. The best book I've ever read in my life in my career is called The Alchemist by Pablo Coelho. And there's a big thing, three set themes throughout the book, which is follow the omens. If you feel something, if you feel a pull towards something, if you get energy towards something, just go with it. You technically might not know the answers at the time but if you go with it, go with the vibes and you never know what's going to happen. And as they say, the rest is history. I got here. I was living in a hostel, a backpacking hostel, I had no money, I started door knocking for jobs, I got a job, worked my way up in the digital marketing community, thought I could do it better and took my idea on The Apprentice – and one thing just led to the next. I sit here today, and all these amazing things have happened. It kind of just feels like the click of the fingers or a blink of the eye. I'm Lord Sugar's business partner and I own all these companies. It's hard work, having goals, and almost it was preordained to a certain respect. Anna: You've talked about being a real goal setter, knowing where you're going to be 5-10 years’ time, but that seemed like quite a spontaneous move. Mark: Yeah, I think, how they say the biggest things happen outside your comfort zone? I think the biggest killer of people's success is comfort, staying in their mediocrity, getting comfortable doing things that don't necessarily challenge them, but make sure they stay safe. It's really easy in our society today. Particularly, what, in Australia, where I come from and in the UK and America, it's really easy to stay comfortable in the middle part of society. Every time I've gained any success in life, whether that's leaving Australia with no money and backpacking, giving up my job and my flat to go on The Apprentice, taking loans to start companies, whatever it might have been. Every time I've achieved something in my life, it's been from pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Just reflecting on that, Steve Jobs, who's the photo behind me, who I am in love with, basically. He always said you can – it's easier to connect the dots looking backwards and it's so true in my life, when I look back at any success I've had, yes, it's from setting goals and knowing where I want to be in life and focusing on who I want to be and what I want out of life, but also pushing myself to do things that I’m not necessarily comfortable with. With your jumping in and doing things attitude, where do you stand on things like MBAs and business education qualifications? What role could be play in somebody becoming an entrepreneur? Mark: It's an interesting question. I would much prefer the people I employee to have MBAs and the infrastructure and theory of growing and scaling and managing a business. As an entrepreneur, what I've found is that it's more the risk-taking the big-thinking and the strategy of the company that I'm responsible for. The funny thing is, most of the great entrepreneurs haven't written courses, they haven't written MBAs, and you can't teach what it takes to be a great entrepreneur, because a lot of it is instinct. A lot of it is huge, unsustainable risk-taking that wouldn't make sense if you saw it written in a course. I've never been to university, I don't have any formal education or degrees, or any of that sort of stuff. Listen, I haven't done it, but that's not to say that it doesn't work. I think knowledge is power and information is really key to success. Now, a lot of people do have degrees and have been successful, a lot of people don't, it's more just what's inside you as an entrepreneur: are you driven? Can you work consistently? Are you prepared to take big risks? Do you understand the industry or the business that you're in? That's the key – doesn't matter about what degree you've got. You can have a degree, you cannot have a degree, that's not a dictator of success. What is, is are you an expert in what your field is. If you are an expert, and you've got good work ethic, and you will stay in your industry long enough, you will eventually be successful. Great. You've said in the past that it's your bullish attitude that helped you get through The Apprentice. I wonder how your level of bullishness was at the beginning when you applied versus at the end of the show. Mark: I've always had a healthy distribution of confidence, I would say and that confidence, some would describe as arrogance. I would say healthy confidence has given me a bullish strength and approach in business generally, throughout my whole career, whether it's been in interviews, on The Apprentice, in business deals – and that confidence in either negotiating a deal, winning The Apprentice, is so powerful. I believe the key to higher performance is high self-confidence, high self- belief. Before you start working on other things, you need to really work within yourself to be confident. If you believe in yourself, and what you're selling and what you're doing, other people will buy into that, whether that's your employees on the journey, whether that's a banker to give you a loan, whatever it might be, that self-confidence is so important. I think I carried this air of confidence in from day one of The Apprentice through to the final and Lord Sugar and the other judges could sense it and I think also the other candidates could sense that and it's a pretty powerful tool in The Apprentice, but in business as well. And in your profile, when the series was broadcast, and under ‘what are your worst business skills?’ it says, ‘I have no bad business skills’. Would you see those still true now, with hindsight? Mark: Haha, you've really done your research. I mean, you do say some things on there that you look back and you get a bit of a tingle of embarrassment because you say some crazy stuff to be entertaining on the show. But, do I have any bad business skills? Listen, there's always things I can improve on. But I would say my gift in life is business. I'm passionate about business. I love business. I've studied every facet of it from small, medium, large, great entrepreneurs of all time. Listen, some people can play a musical instrument like you've never heard, some people can run 100 metres in ten seconds and under. My gift that I got was being brilliant at business. And that's my thing. I'd like to say I have no bad attributes – I'm sure other people would challenge that, but it's the thing I love in life. And I believe as well that you took forward this absolute commitment to business, to your business and to creating it and making it a success. But it reached a point where you were extremely stressed, burnt out, even to the point where one of the Lord Sugar’s aides approached you and said, ‘When's the last time you took a break, went to the gym. Tell us about getting to that point and how you felt. Mark: Listen, I think when you create a start-up business, I think the start-up journey is the hardest area of business. I own businesses at all different levels of turnover size, staff numbers and investment levels. For me, the hardest journey was that ‘zero’, starting a company, registering at Companies House, and going from zero to whatever. It's so tough. In the first two years of my business, I pretty much didn't have a day off. I wasn't sleeping enough, I wasn't eating well, I was drinking too much. It was because the work that was required in terms of stress levels, hours and just general demand of creating systems and processes in the business, signing up customers, keeping those customers happy, employing staff, getting equipment, getting investment. It was a very hard process. I gave up my life for the first three to four years for the business. The first two I wasn’t in existence to people who knew me. And I was working every hour that God gave, and it was tough. It was really tough. It wasn't good for my health. It wasn't good for my relationships. We talk a lot about work life balance, okay? You can love business, you can love what you do. But you do need to find time. It’s no good – as Lord Sugar's advisor told me – being the richest guy in the graveyard, and just dropping dead at work one day. You need to be able to create a life that you can live healthily. That was that was hard-hitting advice from a billionaire’s advisor. They’re saying that so it must be true, I thought. So, I've made more time to have a bit of balance in my life, so that the success is sustainable. Anna: I suppose it can be a cultural thing, especially in the UK. I mean, there's this real pressure from various different places, very much social media included in that, you need to keep going, keep hustling all the time. So I'd imagine that's not exactly helpful. Mark: You're right, we live in a culture of Instagram, of social media, where you go on there and you hear that if you work 100 hours a week, that's the way to get a million pounds and all of this stuff. A lot of the people that are saying this don't have a million pounds, point 1. Point 2 is you can work 100-hour weeks, but for how long can you do that? Oh, and Sugar is very proud of telling people that he is a multi-billionaire who is only at work Monday to Friday. He's never worked a weekend in his 50-year career. And I think that is really powerful because he's got the proof of the pudding. He is successful, he is famous, he is wealthy, but he has work life balance. And he'll tell anyone who listens. ‘I don't work weekends, I work Monday to Friday, and I work harder than anyone Monday to Friday.’ In my head, I know on Friday evening, as I'm driving home, that is it, my brain switches off, I spend time with my wife and my family. Then on Monday morning, I'm back to it. I think giving yourself in your brain that time to recharge, to relax, to create ideas, but also to spend time with your loved ones and just switch off. Burnout is a is a real thing. It's the same with a light – if you leave it on all the time, it'll eventually burn out. Your mind, your brain and your body are exactly the same. Sleep debt and all of those things are real, legitimate causes for business owners not making it. One of the things that we've noticed in this lockdown, and one of the things that's been key to many small business owners – often by necessity – is that when their physical buildings have closed, they've really amped up their digital marketing and their online presence. But now, as trading restrictions are beginning to ease, they're moving back into their bricks and mortar businesses. How would you recommend that they keep up that momentum of their online presence with their existing resources as they move back to bricks and mortar? Mark: Well, there's been a lot of good lessons in the pandemic, and I'm speaking purely from a business perspective. On the health side of it, it's been terrible, there's no doubt about that. But from a business perspective, it has shown us the good industries, the good businesses. It has also shown us areas where we can improve our business. It’s because a business that is reliant on a singular location that cannot trade because of something like a health pandemic, probably isn't a great business, so we need to be online. Yes, having a shop and a store is a great customer experience, and something that we should never lose. But we need to have a blend of both. And when, if you've got good systems and processes, you can have the best of both worlds: a customer in-store experience, a high street experience, and also an online 24 hours, seven days a week business. You should actually be more profitable and more dependent with your business. But it comes back to systems and processes. The problem with online is that it never switches off. And that means as human beings where we can go in and check out an ecommerce store 24/7, we can check the Google Ads 24/7 and all of this stuff, but you've got to have people, processes and systems so that you still work normal hours. Anna: Absolutely. What kind of things do you have in mind? What kind of systems? Mark: I use tools for social media posts, scheduled tools, I use software to check all my marketing campaigns, suggest changes and do low-level stuff automatically. All my email marketing campaigns for my econ businesses are done weeks in advance, and it's all just scheduled into software. So rather than sitting there at eight o'clock, ten o'clock, nine o'clock on a Saturday or a Sunday, it's all done on the Monday ready for the Saturday. It's just using tools and technology to make sure that we're actually working. I hate this phrase, but I'm going to use it now: working smarter, not harder. Just making sure that we're doing stuff, just not working 24 hours a day because the internet allows us to. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we before we go? Absolutely not. I think it was it's great that there's podcasts like this. All I would say, to any business people out there that are listening to this is get yourself a mentor. If I've learned anything through my process of business, it is surrounding myself with great businesspeople that has enabled my success. Deals and success falls off other successful people, but to knowledge falls off them. And generally, when a business owner or an entrepreneur is failing, it's not through a lack of resource or finances – it’s lack of knowledge. And it's podcasts like yours and having a good mentor that really help people get over the goal line. So yeah, that's really it. And I think it's going to be a good time ahead. Where would you recommend finding a mentor? Mark: Well, there's this amazing tool called LinkedIn. Anna: Ah, yes – I’m familiar! Mark: And what I recommend is a good mentor is someone that's been there, done that and bought the T-shirt. And I always recommend someone that's either business or industry specific. You can go on to their LinkedIn, follow them on social media, see where they're speaking next, where's their next event, where's their next conference and go there, track them down and ask them to coach you, mentor you, even if that's through giving them equity in your business or paying for their time. Knowledge really is the key to scaling up a successful business. And if you've got the right people at board level of your company, it's very hard for that company to fail. And it's been a big lesson for me on my journey, and I hope that helps other business owners as well. How much equity would you suggest? Mark: It depends how great the mentor is. I mean, I've got Alan Sugar, and I gave him 50 per cent. I mean, the most amount of equity you'd want to give any shareholder is probably 50 per cent, 49 per cent, and you probably want to come back from there. For someone that's just going to attend board meetings, you're probably looking at five per cent-ten per cent. If you're looking at someone significant, that's going to be, taking an active role, 30 per cent. But it depends on the size of your business and the size of their input as well. Anna: That sounds like a good place to wrap up, so I will leave it there. But thank you for coming on the podcast, Mark. It's been fab. Mark: Thank you so much for having me. You can find out more about Mark at climb-online.co.uk. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more on digital marketing and the pros and cons of business education. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lower case) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

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April 16, 2021 – National Eggs Benedict Day | National Wear Your Pajamas To Work Day

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 16, 2021 2:30

What Is Your Favorite PJ Style? Welcome to April 16, 2021 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate staying comfy on the job and a breakfast fit for a Pope. Anna: Marlo, what are you wearing? Marlo: My pajamas. Anna: Uh…why? Marlo: It's National Wear Your Pajamas To Work Day. Anna: I guess I missed the memo on that one. Marlo: Your loss. I'm super comfy. Anna: I never really pictured you as a footy-jammy kinda guy. Marlo: What? You don't like my Star Trek PJs? Anna: Oh! Is that what they are? From here, I thought the pattern was a bunch of ducks. When something is top notch, people love to claim it. Take the Cadillac of breakfast foods, Eggs Benedict. Some say the name comes from Pope Benedict XIII, who liked an egg dish so much he requested it often. Then there's the story of Lemuel Benedict. The Wall Street Broker ordered buttered toast, two poached eggs, bacon and hollandaise sauce. Apparently, it was such a winning combination that it went on the menu at the Waldorf hotel. But before that there was Mrs. LeGrand Benedict who was having trouble deciding what to order while dining at Delmonico's in New York. The chef came up with a similar recipe to the other two, which begs the question. Which Benedict came first? On National Eggs Benedict Day, there's no need to quibble. Enjoy this dish that is fit for anyone with eggstraordinary taste.

new york national wear pope cadillac workday pajamas waldorf eggs benedict delmonico national day calendar anna oh

NOLU Interview with Anna Oh

No One Likes Us

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 19, 2021 48:25

Wee Ryan interviews Tromette and Turbojugend, Anna Oh.

turbojugend anna oh

Brompton MD, Will Butler-Adams: 'Manufacture’s become entrepreneurial again'

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 11, 2021 20:01

In this episode, Anna Jordan talks to Will Butler-Adams, managing director of Brompton Bikes. We discuss taking over the company from its founder and the future of manufacturing. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on business succession and international trade. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Will Butler Adams' podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Will Butler-Adams, managing director of Brompton Bikes. He started at Brompton in 2002 as a project manager, moved up to engineer director and decided to take on the role of MD when a rival company was going to buy the company out in 2008. After making some changes, production sped up and Brompton now sells 55,000 bikes per year, with key markets in the UK and China. A UK-based Brompton bike hire scheme was launched in 2011. Outside of the firm, Butler-Adams is a fellow at the Institute of Mechanical Engineers and the Royal Geographical Society as well as the City and Guilds of London Institute. He’s also a member of the British Manufacturing & Consumer Trade Advisory Group, consulting on post-Brexit trade deals outside the EU. We’ll be discussing what it’s like to take over a business from its founder and how to maintain brand loyalty. Anna: Hi Will. Will: Anna, good morning. Anna: How are you? Will: Well, very lucky. In the current climate, as we are seeing, some really, really challenging times both emotionally and also commercially, for many people globally. It's a pretty unprecedented time and we are finding ourselves as a business, one of the few sectors that has benefited from the current crisis. Anna: I understand you're in the factory right now. Will: Yep, I'm in the factory. We've traded non-stop throughout from the very first lockdown. And that has come with all sorts of challenges. But funnily enough, and we'll talk about a little bit more no doubt, that bicycle is a very, very useful tool in a situation like this. And there has been this sort of global enlightenment, to the value of something so humble as a bicycle. So, you know, we've contributed in our own peculiar way to try and to help people through this crisis. Well, I will start a little bit further back from here. When you when you bought the company, way back in 2008, you made a generous valuation estimate and you bought out the founder Andrew Ritchie's controlling stake in the company. Some might see that as a bold strategy. Why did you go for it at the time? Will: I joined the company in 2002, there were about 30 of us. Initially, I just thought I was going to muck about with a mad inventor making what looked like a fun and interesting product, not much more than that. And then [after] two or three years I'd move on. I was pretty young at 28, but the bike got under my skin and it affected my life. I wasn't naturally an urban liver. And yet, it's such fun living in London with this bike because it gave me this freedom. And I saw it had a similar, quite profound effects on our customers. That's very alluring and, in some respects, addictive. I was consumed by the company, entirely consumed by it. And Andrew, the inventor, is an absolute flipping genius. But he's not a builder of a business because he is much more of a sort of complete megalomaniac, detail, engineering right down in the nitty gritty. We're both engineers, but I'm more of a ‘vision, empowerment and grow’ engineer. And I wanted, by the time we got to 2008 – in fact, 2006 or 2007 – I wanted to commit my life to the product he'd invented, but I couldn't do it if he still had the control. The reality is that, even if you've made me the MD back then I wouldn't have had the control that I needed to do what I needed to do because I knew I needed to do things that he wouldn't approve of. He had to let go of control. It didn't mean I was then taking control because I never did. I just took out his controlling stake. But it then meant I had authority and autonomy to do what I knew needed to happen to the business for it to fulfil its potential. Were there signs that he [Ritchie] may have been getting to the point where he was more willing to give over some of the control? From what I've read, he was quite reluctant to delegate when he was in charge. Anna: Life isn't black and white. It's full of moments in time, and people, and there's a certain amount of luck. And it's whether you see the opportunity or the luck floating by and whether you jump on to it. But in this particular case, I think it was a moment in time where Andrew was getting so caught up in the detail. And when a business gets to a certain size, if you're trying to control everything, you've become the eye of the needle, and everything has to go through you. And you think that by recruiting people that you will find that then, you have less work to do. But if you are the person who is controlling everything, everything has to come through you. And by recruiting more people, you find you're even busier. That's what happened to Andrew: he got busier and busier and busier. It was making him unhappy. Because he was putting himself under so much pressure, there was a sort of nosedive where he was not enjoying himself because the business was becoming so successful. Also, I was being more confident. In the early days, the company was owned by him and his friends. His friends weren't Andrews. They were entrepreneurial, independent businesspeople in their own right. They could see and bring perspective and support Andrew to make the decision because they could see there was no way he could continue, because it wasn't his forte. So, they encouraged him to let go. It's worth saying that on many occasions, since then, he's vehemently regretted it because I've done things of course, which I knew I'd have to do that he didn't agree with. Tell me – what kind of protestations did he have? Will: It's about detail. Andrew is an inventor – in the absolute classic sense of the word. He spent 13 years, he hand-drew 1000s of drawings – technical drawings – not just for the bike, but how to make the bike and in insane detail. It’s something straight out of A Beautiful Mind. It's unreal that one human being could do what he did against a sort of backlog of everyone telling him, ‘What are you doing, wasting your time? You've tried, you fail, you're still at it, why are you still at it?’ He wouldn't give up. But he would worry about training and worry about tolerances, worrying about the grammar and would pick up on some problem, you know, six pages deep in our website, and ask me, ‘How would I let this happen?’ It's wrong, but in the grand scheme of things, when you're running a business and trying to do this and open up markets in Japan and an office in London developing this, he assumed that I would know everything and check every piece of written word and that I'd signed off every detail, but it doesn't happen like that. You have to find people better than you, you need to trust them, you need to allow them to make mistakes, just not mistakes that will take out the business. But his perception is that I was running the business – when it had 100 people, 200 people, 300 people, 400 people – in the same way that he ran the business when it had 40 people. That's just not possible. So that was the friction, and in some respects, still is a friction. In most cases, everything Andrew said was technically correct. It just wasn't the priority. And the problem is, when you're running a business and you're growing at some speed, you actually have to walk past things that are wrong. You're walking straight past something that is absolutely wrong. Unacceptable, not right. But you have to leave it because there's an even bigger wrong over there. You need to deal with the biggest [wrong]. It gives me huge pleasure that there are some things that I've been walking past for eight, nine, ten years. Finally, we've got the breadth and the capacity as a business to finally address some of these things that have been bugging me. But if you get distracted by every minutiae, as you're growing a business, you won't move the business forward because you'll never get to the most important thing that then allows you to move on to the lesser things and as you build down through the priority list. I think especially when you're starting a business, you're so used to playing all the roles, so that can be difficult to let go of. But interestingly, in Brompton’s case, when I joined, there were fewer than 30 people. I was the person running the machines. I rolled my sleeves up, spent three weeks running machines. The business was so small that that is what I did. That role has changed significantly. We now have offices around the world and we've got lots of people and I'm really doing nothing. That's a really tough call to design yourself out of a job, because there is no operational control in my role. Speaking of internationally – and you probably saw this coming – but I'd like to talk a bit about Brexit. We’re a week and a half in now. It's been ‘chaotic’, in a word, especially for exporters. I think that as somebody who has worked to advise on trade deals, and who wants to grow their market in other parts of Europe, especially for small business exporters, what do you think the forecast is for them, say the next three to five years? Will things get better? Will: What I would say – and this is not entirely directly answering your question, but indirectly does – when you're in business, you need to focus on things that you can control. You can control who you employ, you can control the culture of your organisation, how you present yourselves and what you do to inspire your team. What you can't control is FX (foreign exchange), what you can't control is Brexit. So, what you need to do is put in place strategies to mitigate the things that you can't control to allow you to get back to focusing on the things you can control. What happened with Brexit was, it started four years ago, we took a decision four years ago, to plan for the worst-case scenario. It took us about three months, the worst-case scenario hasn't then changed in three-and-three-quarter years, it's still the worst-case scenario. So, for the last three-and-three-quarter years, we've focused on growing our business innovating, distribution, communication – and we've doubled the size of our business. But what I saw over Brexit was many businesses got so caught up in worrying about something that they couldn't control, that they didn't do anything, they stagnated. They were worrying about the latest rumours – ‘I've heard it's that but maybe it's this or it could be this’. And I think in business, you need to not get distracted by things you can't control, focus on your core, focus on your added value, and manage the things you can't control by putting in place strategies to minimise the risk. Small business owners are so accustomed to planning ahead but without a lot of concrete information that's been difficult to do. Will: I'm not sure I agree. With a small business, you're more flexible than a bigger business, you're much more nimble. You have a tremendous advantage against some of the bigger players because you can adjust and you're smaller. I think it's not straightforward. It is possible to be able to try and mitigate those risks. And there aren't that many of them. Clearly Brexit is one, FX is another, trade tariffs is a third, but there aren't that many. And there's some good advice out there to support you. I know that Brompton has been open about being against planned obsolescence. This is where a company will manufacture a product so that it is unusable after a couple of years [or a certain period time], which is long enough where somebody can develop a connection with the product, but not so short that they get disengaged from the company and never buy from them again, there's regular income for that company. Phones are especially notorious for this practice. My question to you is that if a customer is only going to buy one Brompton bike for life, how do you maintain brand loyalty from customers? Will: The way you can maintain brand loyalty from customers is to give them a product that they may need to buy once in their life. Capitalism has done some amazing things – brought people out of poverty, it’s brought health, it’s brought education, but it has come at a cost to our planet. And certainly, in the last 50 years, increasingly. So, we have to rethink how we engage with consumerism and how we buy things and how we reuse things and don't just buy and chuck away and just, we're sucking value out of our planet, which our planet can't sustain. Apart from the fact that the customer must prefer the product they've had for a long time. If you've got some pots and pans that came from your granny or your parents or an old jacket or anything that's had longevity, you cherish it because it's given so much to and if you can keep it working for as long as possible, that makes total sense to me. Coming back to brand loyalty, there are things we can do to engage with our customers where they're having fun. We do races all round the world, not the last 12 months, but we do activities, we do events. And we want people to have fun, and this year with a fair wind we’ll make 70,000 bikes. I mean, they're like eight and a half billion people in the world of which nearly over 50 per cent live in cities. I mean, we haven't even started, the opportunities are immense. We want to create things, then actually what we want to do is when it's finished, which we're not out yet, we should be able to take the product back, recycle it and start all over again and have a full circular economy. Anna: Is that something that you're planning to do in future? Wil: Definitely. We need we need to do that, because there will come a point where the bikes that we were making 20 years ago, in some cases 15 years ago, have come to the end of their life, at which point for those bikes, we should be able to bring them back, take them apart for recycling, then round we go again. I've read that your marketing budget isn't huge, either. Will: I think the experience that a customer has with your product, too often, businesses are obsessed with selling you something. But that's not how you build a brand. A brand isn't what you feel when you bought it, you can buy anything. And the moment you buy and you have this sort of rush of, ‘Whoopee isn't this fantastic?’ The question is, go back to that same customer in two years’ time and say, you know that £100 you spent or that £300 you spent, was it worth it? And, sadly, in most cases against you might have never been used, or yeah, it was brilliant for about six months, and then it bust or something went wrong. There aren’t many things that that we absolutely cherish and love. I think the scope for us to be delivering a useful product, it's not just about buying, it's about looking after the customer for the life of the product. Things need looking after, which is why we have put in a lot of energy. If you like, our marketing budget goes into looking after the customers we already have – that's the most effective marketing budget. If the customers that you have really love their product, and when things go wrong, which they do, we look after them as best we can, then that's the best marketing you can get. So, spend your money on warranty or on customer service, customer support. And then when that's all perfect, you might have a little bit left over for doing some proactive marketing. But often people they forget about are the customer, they just want to go out and do this trend or get more new customers, forgetting about the ones they’ve already got. To round off, I'd like to talk a little bit about manufacturing in the UK. For a long time now it's dwindled, but then others have said, ‘Well, the UK is so innovative and it's still a very strong player in the manufacturing industry.’ In your view, where do you see it going in the next few years? Will: I think there is so much potential to manufacture in the UK, simply because the barriers to entry to doing efficient lean manufacturing are so much lower than they used to be. When I was at university, which is increasingly becoming quite a long time ago – Anna: Oh, I know the feeling! Will: Yeah! If you wanted to design something like a car, you needed a computer that filled up a room and they cost, in today's money, millions of pounds. So, the only companies that could afford the technology to allow you to design effectively were the Fords or the massive companies in the world. But you can buy a computer and start doing 3D design, you can get things printed in 3D in metal. If anything, manufacture’s become entrepreneurial again, because if you come up with an idea, if you can design it, you can print it, you can prove it, you can go on to social media, and then you can raise the money to get started. There's so much potential. The real sense of pride comes from, the reason that it's so satisfying with manufacture, is you see you’re creating something. It's that sense of creation, it's like growing plants – you're seeing something happen and come alive in front of you. You're creating something tangible – that's really, really satisfying. We've been encouraged and told that everything is on a computer and it's all noughts and ones. Actually, it’s the innate sense of pride about something tangible that's going out the door. I think actually the opportunities for it, not just in the UK but globally for manufacturing. Manufacturing doesn't need to be where there's cheap labour. Manufacturing is where there are the best ideas and robotics, semi automation, 3D printing, the cost of software and the ability to design, meaning the best ideas can sprout anywhere in the world, and you can manufacture locally, where the brains are. Anna: It would be a bit like, since the rise of social media and blogging, we've seen content creation go more into the individual’s hands, you feel like manufacturing can go from larger companies to individuals. Will: Definitely. It's a really positive thing because of disruption. I mean, if you look at things about flying taxis, people coming up, there are like 50,60,100 different companies around the world, all coming up with their different flying taxis. It was unthinkable 25 years ago, because it just wasn't possible for small businesses or small groups of individuals to try and come up with something so revolutionary, it would only be a LES four-digit or Nissan, or something – forget it. Yet, all these start-ups are doing it, because the whole engineering and manufacturing has been broken down and it makes it much more accessible. And if your idea is strong enough, if your passion burns bright enough, you can do it. Anna: Well, on that rather inspirational note, I'll leave it there. Thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast, Will. Will: Anna, it's my pleasure. Thank you for asking me. You can find out more about Brompton Bikes at brompton.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for articles on business succession and international trade. Remember to like us on Facebook at SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lowercase. Until next time, thank you for listening.

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#162 A Scientists experiments with life | Isha Hatha yoga teacher Amar anna oh his inward Journey!!!

Vaisu’s Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 28, 2020 89:36

0:00 - Introduction 1:11 - Childhood of Amar Anna and fascination for Science 4:05 – The secret mantra to reading more 6:56 – Communist brother who thinks yoga is crap 7:30 – One book that helped overcome childhood fear of the ghosts 10:45 – One precious gift from his father that changed Amar Anna's life completely 12:56 – If you have the fire to do anything wholeheartedly, nobody can stop you. 14:09 – Humility helped Amar Anna set forth on a journey from the rural villages of Purnia to JNU in Delhi 17:16 – Intense Life experience in JNU 22:04 – Amar anna and his half-girlfriends 27:03 – How Amar Anna met his wife? 29:31 - A bout of depression over a failed relationship in Spain 31:48 – Amar Anna bows down to his wife in deep gratitude 33:46 – How Amar Anna became an atheist before meeting Sadhguru? 35:30 - A real seeker is a scientist because… 37:04 – Some people say that Sadhguru is unscientific. What are a scientist's thoughts? 42:33 – Inner Engineering experience 45:05 – The true bliss of finding Sadhguru as his Guru 45:59 – Inner Engineering helped cure migraine and 80% allergies. Now it was time for advanced programs. 47:54 – How Sadhguru made Amar Anna experience the ‘other' dimension through Bhavaspandana? 49:55 – Amar Anna's wife did not allow him to attend Sadhanapada 50:43 – Starting Hatha Yoga to intensify Sadhana and the journey of becoming an Isha Hatha yoga teacher 54:19 – Lack of money for Isha Hatha Yoga Teacher's Training Program and how it was arranged 57:30 – “If you surrender everything, he (Sadhguru) will make it possible” 59:14 – The punctual lifestyle of an Isha Hatha Yoga Teacher 1:01:36 – Why classical Yoga must be handled with intensity and not like circus? 1:02:54 – Once you judge any spiritual process, you are blocking the very possibility to transform 1:04:46 – Amar Anna's spiritual experiences answered questions that science couldn't 1:07:42 – Language has limitations but experiences are beyond the limits of language. 1:09:15 – When Sadhguru sits with eyes closed, it is his most powerful state of being 1:10:30 – Mathematics is the language of nature 1:12:13 – About yoga – Yoga is a state of being. Anybody can achieve the state of yoga if… 1:14:10 – A bit about conducting the first yoga class 1:19:46 – How can we change the world? 1:23:52 – Money is not a hurdle for anyone to learn Isha yoga practices; lack of commitment is! 1:25:13 – Reach out to Amar anna on social media – Samarpanam Yoga 1:26:20 – Follow Samarpanam Yoga for a more scientific take on spirituality and yoga 1:27:31 – Last few words – one powerful tip for transformation Contact details of Hatha Yoga teacher Amar anna Instagram @samarpanamyoga : https://www.instagram.com/samarpanamyoga/ My contact details Instagram @vaisu90 Email: vaisakhsabu90@gmail.com Twitter: @vaisakhsabu90

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Jillian Michaels' Igno-Rant About Intuitive Eating

ALL FIRED UP

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 13, 2020 72:28

There's nothing more infuriating than when people throw shade at the anti-diet perspective without bothering to actually research it. When "The Biggest Loser" trainer/shameless fatphobe Jillian Michaels arrogantly released a Youtube clip trashing the 10 principles of intuitive eating, WITHOUT EVEN READING THE BOOK, she REALLY pi***ed off the community! And none more so than my guests, anti-diet fitness trainers Anna Hearn and Shreen El Masry, who have been dying to come on the podcast and set the record straight! Finally the COVID window opened just a crack so I could record the very first IN PERSON podcast! Join us as we dissect Jillian's often hilarious inability to comprehend a life beyond diet prison. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS 'PERMISSION TO EAT!!' It seems the lady doth protest too much - could it be that the Queen of Diet Prison is sensing the paradigm-shifting power of the anti-diet revolution? That's right folks, the unrivalled reign of Biggest Loser-esque terror is over!! Vive La Difference! Please note - this episode comes with a hefty side serve of calorie count discussions, so if you're in recovery from an eating disorder please consider your level of spoons to hear the diet talk. But, if you've had a gutful of igno-rants about anti-dieting, it's time to get ALL FIRED UP! Show Transcript: LOUISE: So, here I am with Anna and Shreen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ANNA: Thank you for having us. SHREEN: Yeah, thank you so much. LOUISE: It’s so exciting to be alive with actual humans in the room, and slightly weird. Why don’t you guys tell me all about what is firing you up? ANNA: We’re really fired up about Jillian Michaels and her aggressive fatphobic rant on intuitive eating. LOUISE: (sighs) First of all, I have to say I love how you say ‘rant’, it’s very proper and awesome. But yes, Jillian Michaels – Biggest Loser trainer in the United States. Horrendously fatphobic. ANNA: Yeah, I mean … she got her living, she makes her living from shaming fat bodies. I think that tells a lot about her character and where she’s going to go with her intuitive eating rant. LOUISE: So, she was on the Biggest Loser for years and years and years. Her website … well, she’s touting herself as the world’s best trainer. Like, the biggest expert in the world on all things fitness. Which, well … this is just a hunch, but I could find people on the planet who are more qualified. ANNA: Well, if you want to break down her qualifications, I think it looks like she’s done a couple of personal training qualifications, a couple of fitness qualifications and … SHREEN: One ‘woo woo’ nutrition qualification. ANNA: There is a nutrition qualification there too, but it doesn’t look like there’s any degrees or anything. So, when it comes to intuitive eating and looking at all of that, when we go into it you’ll realise, I think, that she hasn’t really done her research. She doesn’t understand it. And I think it’s interesting that somebody without that nutrition background or lived experience with that sort of thing talks about it the way that she does. SHREEN: I think as well, not only does she come across really aggressive and shaming, also I think her insecurity is really coming out in this video. Intuitive eating is a movement that’s really starting to take off, and she’s clearly threatened by it. You can see her defence mechanism is up, and she’s … you know, really, just … her demeanour is just awful. LOUISE: It's hard to tell, though, if her demeanour’s just awful because she’s defensive or because her demeanour’s just awful. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s true. ANNA: I kind of picked up on that and thought she was sensing a threat because intuitive eating is becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more aware of it. So that could threaten what she does, because she makes a living forcing people to lose weight. LOUISE: So, during the 90’s and the early 2000’s, like … it was a free-for-all with bullying people with larger bodies, as we saw. World-wide, the Biggest Loser was the number one show, and everyone thought it was okay. So, she’s had this unfettered ability to be horrible about body size and really belittling of people in larger bodies. And now, I think she’s realising it’s not okay to keep on doing that. ANNA: The backlash about it. LOUISE: So, just to set the stage. What we’re seeing … because I did see the internet blow up. It was a while ago now, but let’s face it - we’ve all been in iso and unable to talk to each other. So, she has like a YouTube channel and one of her YouTube little presentations - I don’t watch what she does, just for my own mental health - but this one was Jillian Michaels talking about intuitive eating. Which, oh my god … let’s just get Donald Trump talking about sexism. ANNA: That’s a great analogy. SHREEN: She’s basically, I think she’s just gone on the website and just pulled up the principles without doing any research into it or even understanding there’s over a hundred studies done on intuitive eating and there’s a whole book as well. She just went on there, read out these principles and gave her, I guess, her opinion. ANNA: It became really clear that she hasn’t taken the time to understand it. She hasn’t learnt about the authors; you’ll see as she comes to the end of it, she talks about assuming that it was written by somebody who had just had some bad experience with diet culture, maybe had an eating disorder LOUISE: Oh my god, that’s so disrespectful SHREEN: So disrespectful. ANNA: No understanding or bothering to explore that the authors are actually dietitians who had come up with this approach because they had done so much work with clients who had struggled a lot and this is what they’d learnt from working with them over years and years. LOUISE: These are the gurus. Like, Tribole and Resch, they wrote the initial book Intuitive Eating and it’s just been updated, which is fantastic. But even that, even their book which is written from that perspective of helping people recover from eating disorders, that book is built on another big long history of social justice and fat activism. To not recognise that intuitive eating is part of a social movement and like, the way she presented it is like, she just stumbled across a webpage and … oh my god. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And it came across very, very condescending. I felt really bothered … SHREEN: It’s so harmful, as well. That was the thing that really bothered me the most, was how much … I mean, she causes so much harm anyway, but the message was just next level harm. And if anyone was watching that and had no idea, the things that she was saying … yeah, it’s just not on. LOUISE: Oh god, yikes. So, we thought we would unpick Jillian Michael’s feelpinion to each of the ten principles of intuitive eating. And you guys have written some awesomely detailed notes. ANNA: We had a really good chat about it. LOUISE: Fantastic. But I’m so interested, because you guys both work in this industry as HAES® positive, body inclusive, weight neutral trainers hearing from almost like the personification of diet culture woman. SHREEN: She is the reason why people have so much fitness trauma and so much negative association with fitness. She’s causing that. ANNA: She is the epitome of diet culture. SHREEN: Yeah, she is the epitome of diet culture, for sure. ANNA: And I think we chatted about this as we were hanging out one day, and we just came across this as a topic that fired both of us up. And it’s frustrating when you see … when you’re so heavily involved in this space, and the HAES® space, and the body inclusive space, it can be … and luckily for me working here at Haven, this is the space I come to work every day. So, I’m not exposed to traditional diet culture unless I stumble across it or it’s brought to my attention. So, I couldn’t help but just be really quite wild about this. LOUISE: I love it. I mean, I don’t love that you’re wild, but I kind of do. But, yeah. It’s nice to know that in this industry there are people who feel really strongly about just putting an end to this. She’s what’s wrong with the fitness industry at the moment, and you guys are the future. And I think she can smell that. So, I think, like I … I managed to watch it and still shaking with rage but thank you for this glass of champagne. ANNA: I don’t think we could do this without a little bit of champagne. SHREEN: No, we need some bubbles. LOUISE: The first thing she starts with, so she’s actually going through all the principles. SHREEN: Correct. LOUISE: Why don’t you give me the lowdown on your reaction. ANNA: Let’s kick off. So, she does go through the points one by one, and the first principle is ‘reject the diet mentality’. And I just want to point out a few things that came up for me that were just so apparent throughout. Her fatphobia is so clear. She’s driven, everything she says, and her approach is all drive by this. And I think she’s very ignorant, like she doesn’t see that there’s an issue with this. She comes form that space where it’s very normalised to shame fat bodies, it’s not okay to be in a bigger body. And she very clearly associates weight and health, they’re so closely tied, which I think it really problematic, obviously. So, in this ‘reject diet mentality’, what came up for you, Shreen? SHREEN: Well, the first thing for me was that she couldn’t distinguish a difference between fad diets and what dieting is, and diet culture. She’s like, “oh you know, if it’s fad diets we’re talking about yeah, yeah sure”, but this is a woman who has sold supplements in the past. LOUISE: She’s sold fad diets. SHREEN: She’s sold fad diets. And she is diet culture, so I guess she can’t … she doesn’t understand what diet culture actually is and why it’s so important to reject it. I mean, diet culture in the US alone is worth 70 billion dollars. ANNA: She profits off it. SHREEN: She profits off everyone’s insecurities. So, she was just like, “reject diet culture? What’s this, what does this mean?”. And I really did sense there that her insecurity is coming out there because that is her, that’s how she makes her money. ANNA: Well that’s it, she’s really incentivised to support diet culture. LOUISE: But the distinction that she made between “well, if it’s fad, but if it’s proper” … it just made me laugh, because she’s had no less than four separate lawsuits … ANNA: Jillian? SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: Launched against her by her consumers who bought her caffeine-fuelled diet pills. ANNA: Which I think she might have … there might have been something on the Biggest Loser where she gave them to contestants unfairly, apparently, as well. LOUISE: Oh my god, scandal on the Biggest Loser. Like … ANNA: Well, the other thing that came up for me there was she said, “what is this, healthy at any size?”, and that’s immediately a red flag representing that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She hasn’t researched this because … I can understand it’s very easy to misconstrue Health At Every Size® for healthy at every size, but it’s quite a different meaning and that assumption that, you know, just assuming that we’re saying as a Health at Every Size® professional that all bodies are healthy, that’s not where we’re aiming. We’re talking about people being able to pursue health regardless of shape and size. LOUISE: Or, also, we’re talking about the choice not to pursue health and to be left the fuck alone. SHREEN: Yeah, there’s no moral obligation. If people want to do so, then it’s up to them. It shouldn’t be … they shouldn’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but that’s what diet culture is saying. ANNA: Your body, your rules. SHREEN: And this part of her rant really, really … we know that she’s incredibly fatphobic and she fat shames, but it just came out so much in that where she was again talking, talking about size 16. And she’s saying “well, you know, if you’re a size 16 of course I love you but you’re not healthy”. Which is just … LOUISE: Get fucked. SHREEN: Yeah, absolute garbage. ANNA: Yeah. And Health at Every Size® also is about respect for all bodies, and I think there is a real lack of respect in just making that assumption. You can’t tell. How does she know what someone’s health is, you know? What their metabolic functions are, their blood work, their social, mental health … you can’t tell that by someone’s size. SHREEN: Genetics, everything. There’s so much, it’s so multifaceted. LOUISE: Everything I think is just far too complicated for her. She has to actually, like … I mean, clearly, she hasn’t read anything or thought about anything. “Nope, that’s a number, that’s an assumption, and don’t challenge that”. SHREEN: Yeah. And if someone’s watching that, I mean, how triggering. How much harm that one comment could cause somebody that could lead them down a path of dieting and to an eating disorder. ANNA: And especially if they were already vulnerable of somebody who would identify with being in a size 16, or plus. And also, size 16 is quite variable depending on which shop you shop in, you know? Where you get your clothes from. What’s a size anyway? What does it matter? SHREEN: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. LOUISE: Size is not the same as health, and she needs to pull her head in. I wonder if her YouTube videos come with a trigger warning. I don’t think they do, but they should. Because good point, you know, that she … everything she says is potentially a trigger. SHREEN: Especially the size of her audience as well, I’m worried. ANNA: She’s got a big reach still. Some of the comments though were interesting, some really great points. People were talking about intuitive eating and picking up on that she doesn’t understand it, she’s missing the point. LOUISE: That is really reassuring. ANNA: She stopped the comments, she cut them off. LOUISE: Oh no, they were too complicated. ANNA: So, the next principle is ‘honour your hunger’, and she said something pretty radical here. Well, it’s not really radical in the fitness world. These numbers get thrown around a lot. But trigger warning, there are numbers here. She says, “if you’re trying to lose weight, you can keep your body fed on as low as 1200 calories”. And that most women, especially those over, you know, relating to being a certain age, shouldn’t be eating over 1600 calories a day. SHREEN: Which is just absolutely unbelievable. She’s saying that … I mean, that’s what a toddler needs. A toddler needs 1200-1600 calories a day. LOUISE: How very dare she tell me how much I can eat, under a principle that says, ‘honour your hunger’. ANNA: She … on one hand, I’m not surprised she threw those numbers out because those numbers are thrown out all the time in the fitness world. I don’t know where … MyFitnessPal? LOUISE: Are they really? SHREEN: We were saying, MyFitnessPal may have started the whole 1200 calories thing … LOUISE: I think Michelle Bridges is guilty of that too. ANNA: Oh actually, you’re right, she had a program that was based on that. LOUISE: It’s just a nice round number, isn’t it? Let’s just pluck this out of our arse and throw that at all women. ANNA: What I find there though is that like Shreen said, it’s something that a child needs. And I just wanted to double-check that, because I’m not a nutritionist, I’m a yogi and I run a studio, but I wanted to check with somebody who does work with that. I chatted to our non-diet nutritionist Nina and she clarified that yes - this is generalisation - but that kind of number is something that would serve a child. Like, a toddler or a four, five-year-old. And then thinking about the effects of being on a low-calorie diet for a long period, things like loss of menstrual cycle, loss of bone density, fatigue, mood swings, constipation, blood sugar imbalance, stress hormones getting out of whack … SHREEN: Sex drive … ANNA: Sex drive … what did you say before? SHREEN: Dry vagina (laughs). ANNA: She didn’t mention that, did she? SHREEN: No. LOUISE: No, but that might be suffering all of them, you know? And why she’s so grouchy. ANNA: Memory fog and brain fog … memory loss and brain fog. So, these are all things that can be affected by not being adequately fed. And the better indicator of your needs are your body and your internal hunger signals. And we’re taught to … these external sources of just following this rule plan of 1200 calories a day means that if I need more than that – maybe at the time of my period especially I might need much more - and I’m just denying my natural hunger levels. LOUISE: The whole ‘per day’ thing really gives me the shits as well. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s a really good point. LOUISE: This is just a statistical method to help researchers make assumptions about nutrition. It’s not supposed to be something religiously followed. SHREEN: No, there’s no … ANNA: An individual thing, yeah. LOUISE: It’s bizarre. But, isn’t that interesting that even as she’s like, she’s trying desperately, the poor little thing to understand that this is a principle of intuitive eating but she can’t quite get there because she immediately lurches into “well, if you want to lose weight …”. I just felt like reaching through the screen and saying, “realise that intuitive eating is not a weight loss program”. ANNA: That’s half the problem, is that she clearly thinks that the only people who explore intuitive eating are going for weight loss. She says that a few times. LOUISE: Oh, she’s a scrambled egg. ANNA: Yeah. She doesn’t understand that the whole purpose of intuitive eating is more about finding a peaceful relationship with food and your body, not about trying to pursue making your body be something, a certain size. SHREEN: It’s about food freedom, it’s about having a healthy relationship with food, stopping the obsession. It’s not … it’s definitely not following these external rules. It’s about being in tune with what your body wants and needs and getting in touch with those signals. LOUISE: Different planet, I don’t think she’s visited. SHREEN: I don’t think she understands what the ‘honouring hunger’ … it’s a basic self-care need. If you’re not honouring hunger … LOUISE: Again, you’re mentioning a foreign concept here. This is someone who will happily live with a dry vagina, it doesn’t matter. SHREEN: Yep (all laugh). LOUISE: We all went there. SHREEN: She just really doesn’t understand and that is the reason why … people don’t give themselves enough food and they’re following diet plans, and they’re going to give themselves cravings leading to overeating and bingeing, and that’s perfectly normal as well. Other than ‘rejecting the diet mentality’ one of the first steps of intuitive eating is to just honour your hunger and it’s so important. It’s self-care. ANNA: It's so liberating too, if you’re been on the diet bandwagon for many, many years, to recognise that “hey, my body’s got a lot of wisdom, and it’s telling me, it’s giving me messages and I can learn how to reconnect with that”. And I think part of the common thread that comes up with what she says all the time is that … she thinks it’s all about ‘you can’t trust your body’. I think an important thing that I’ve learned is you can really learn how to trust your body. We get into this as we move into the next principle or two. It’s not about endless eating and not being able to, you know, like you’re just not going to go out of control all the time, which is what she sort of thinks. SHREEN: Point number three is that ‘unconditional permission to eat all foods’. LOUISE: She really had a problem with principle three. Like, she was visibly … SHREEN: Yeah, and she started comparing it to smoking, and credit cards, and it’s like …what are you talking about? ANNA: So yeah, this ‘make peace with food’, you’re right. And she talks about saying, talking about the ‘last supper mentality’, and she says, “I’m not religious, I don’t know what Jesus ate”. LOUISE: She really needs to read some books. ANNA: She needs to read Intuitive Eating if she’s going to talk about it. Because if she read it, she might really understand what that means. I thought it was quite clear just from the ‘last supper mentality’, don’t you think? SHREEN: You just eat everything in sight. LOUISE: I don’t even think it has religious connotations, I thought it was like a death row thing. SHREEN: Oh, that’s true … LOUISE: Like eating your last meal. ANNA: That’s right. And it makes sense, I think, if you think about that. You know you’re not going to have something again, so you want to make the most of it in that moment. And ultimately that’s what it’s about. I think that’s kind of clear. But she didn’t understand that, she was sort of like “I don’t like this intense, this hostile approach”. And I’m like, you ARE intense and hostile. LOUISE: How is that intense and hostile? I’ve not ever read the ten principles of intuitive eating and thought “gosh, that’s angry”. I mean, gosh. Visit the internet, really (all laugh). ANNA: I think she is the, again, the epitome diet culture, and she is the hostile one. Think about the Biggest Loser, she is very aggressive and in-your-face, pushing her clients. So, here she talks about it all being about self-control and willpower, and I think that’s missing the point of intuitive eating completely as well. LOUISE: She just can’t … SHREEN: She doesn’t understand. If she’d read the book, she would understand there’s science behind it as well, if she … LOUISE: I don’t think if she read the book she would understand. SHREEN: Yeah (laughs) ANNA: I picked up on that too, she’s [inaudible]. LOUISE: She almost yelled “You do not permission to eat”. Which was quite scary. SHREEN: Because I think that reflects her inner narrative. That’s what’s going on in her head. LOUISE: Yeah. Not … not relaxed, that’s for sure. That response to the third point was quite unhinged. ANNA: And like you said, relating the food to credit cards or smoking, that’s a completely different thing. I don’t think … you know, food is something that we rely on, like biologically … SHREEN: We need food to survive, we need food … and intuitive eating is about healing your relationship to food, it’s about having a healthy relationship to food, and you can’t have that if you’re restricting foods. That’s why it’s really important to give yourself unconditional permission to eat. And yeah, it is scary. Of course. It’s scary when you’ve come from that mentality, but it’s the only way for food to lose its power. ANNA: Yeah. And I think it may be a good point to think about how it’s helpful to be handheld through that process. It can sound really scary to somebody who’s new to it, or who hasn’t delved into intuitive eating too much, or worked with a coach or therapist or something. Maybe working with a. dietitian on this would be really helpful. I understand how it can feel like that lack of control, but I think that’s a period that sometimes is part of that healing process. When you let go of the restriction, and allow yourself full unconditional permission to eat, then you might explore some of those foods that were off-limits for a period. And it might feel like you are diving into them a lot. But … LOUISE: Which is perfectly normal. SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: The last supper effect … like, that actually, now I remember. The ‘last supper’ effect, it is the paper by Herman and Polivy, “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we diet”. That’s the ‘last supper’ effect. It’s a perfectly normal psychological response to restriction is to eat more. And the difference between that and going into massive credit card debt is if you keep giving yourself permission to eat, if you keep reminding yourself that the food’s always there, it’s perfectly safe and I’m allowed to eat it, you will naturally settle down when you get food safety. Eating is totally different to compulsive spending on credit cards. I think she’s just … a lot of people freak out when they let go of dieting and get into that all-or-nothing pattern with eating, but there’s like … a real difference between being in an all-or-nothing pattern of eating and adopting intuitive eating and going through that first phase of eating all the food. It’s just different, and its’ not pathological. It’s a normal response to restriction that obviously … she is so restricted and terrified of that. ANNA: It’s all about control, isn’t it? And I think that, you know, talking about the 1200-1600 calories, and I think she refers to that 1600 calories as something you should never, ever go over. So, as a woman, we’re meant to live our lives constantly not going above that. SHREEN: And it’s such a dangerous message. It’s just not enough food, at all. And it’s … and that’s what she’s selling to people, as well … LOUISE: She’s more like ‘honour your restriction’. SHREEN: Yeah! ANNA: We could reverse all of this and create a Jillian Michaels plan. LOUISE: The non-intuitive eating principles. Accept diet culture … what’s the second one? ANNA: Honour your hunger … don’t honour your hunger. LOUISE: Ignore your hunger. SHREEN: Ignore your hunger, yeah. LOUISE: Number three, you do not have permission to eat (all laugh). Alright, principle four? ANNA: Principle four is ‘challenge the food police’. LOUISE: Okay, so hers would be ‘obey the food police’. SHREEN: I don’t think she really understands that she is the food police. When she’s going through it? Like she is … the food police are all the things she’s already talked about. 1200 calories, 1600 calories, these are things that are the food police. ANNA: These are the rules. SHREEN: She doesn’t understand that principle at all. ANNA: The one thing that she said that I did agree with her on was “don’t beat yourself up”. I think she says it in a different way, she means it in a different way, because she kind of adds on and says, “don’t beat yourself up, but don’t fuck up”. Oh sorry. LOUISE: Please, swear. ANNA: She says, not quite like that, but “maintain balance, it’s all about balance”. And don’t … SHREEN: And self-control. ANNA: So, “don’t beat yourself up, but just don’t do it”, sort of thing. SHREEN: Or, “you can do better”. She always says that, “you can do better”. ANNA: Yeah, so that message is like, it’s still that sort of shaming approach. SHREEN: Condescending. LOUISE: It makes no sense whatsoever. ANNA: But don’t beat yourself up, I mean, that’s important. LOUISE: You know what, ‘don’t beat yourself up’ means she knows people are not going to be able to do it. ANNA: That’s a good point, yeah. Yeah, which she talks about the… LOUISE: … about going straight back to jail. ANNA: She talks about the stats, which is interesting. She brings up the stats. LOUISE: Oh, the stats. Yeah, that bit made me itchy. ANNA: That’s coming. It’s coming. The next one is ‘discover the satisfaction factor’, which I think she was actually in agreement with. SHREEN: Yeah, that one … she was saying, food for pleasure … I think that one was almost okay. ANNA: Like wow, okay, we agree. And then six was ‘feel your fullness’. And what came up here was again, it was just clear she hasn’t read the book because she didn’t understand that concept at all. LOUISE: She probably doesn’t know what fulness feels like. SHREEN: And then she started talking about how it’s in your head, and kind of went off … even I got a little bit lost with what she was saying. Like, “oh, we’re on fullness principle? I thought we were …” ANNA: She was kind of saying, yeah, she was kind of saying that if you’re not listening to your body, you’re not picking up your fullness levels, there’s something messed up in your head. And I was thinking, you know what? Sometimes I eat food and I’m quite satisfied physically but I’m still eating because the food’s really good, or I don’t want to … I’m eating in company and I don’t want to finish the meal and want to show that I’ve appreciated it … SHREEN: That’s the thing with intuitive eating, that it’s not the ‘hunger/fullness’ diet. And eating past fullness is normal. It’s totally okay. And it’s not just about eating, you know, getting in touch with your fullness signals. It’s about eating foods that give you pleasure and satisfaction. ANNA: Which is the ‘discover the satisfaction factor’. SHREEN: Which is the next one, but yeah. (sighs). LOUISE: God. So, if you can’t feel fullness, there’s something psychologically wrong with you. ANNA: That’s the message that she’s giving, yeah. SHREEN: But not understanding that if you’re dieting or especially if you’re only eating those dangerous amount of calories a day, you’re going to be absolutely … LOUISE: You mean, like an adult [inaudible] SHREEN: (laughs). Absolutely starving and of course you’re not going to feel your fullness. But there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s just your body. Your body is doing exactly what it is meant to do. It needs food. ANNA: She doesn’t see that 1200-1600 calories as a restriction. She sees it as like … SHREEN: That’s her normal. ANNA: That’s food, that’s what you’re allowed during the day. LOUISE: So depressing. ANNA: Pretty sure I eat double or triple that. LOUISE: Oh, my goodness. ANNA: So, we’re at number seven. We’re still only … oh, over halfway. ‘Cope with your emotions with kindness’. SHREEN: I think the thing is … LOUISE: That doesn’t really bring her to my mind. SHREEN: Yeah. She kind of goes “oh, yeah, I agree with this, but it shouldn’t just be one paragraph …”. And I’m like YES, there’s a BOOK. A book! There’s a whole book to go with this. ANNA: She clearly seems to think it’s just this very basic, you know, overview … SHREEN: Guidelines. ANNA: Yeah, just these ten principles. She hasn’t read the book; she doesn’t know who wrote it. LOUISE: No, but this one really shat me to tears. Because this is where she’s saying that she’s had some childhood history with being maybe fractionally larger than someone else and has had to do, like … basically what she’s saying is that if you cannot lose weight and keep it off forever, that is your psychological fault. SHREEN: Yep. LOUISE: You haven’t done the work in therapy to fix your seemingly not thin body. Which is like, such a load of bullshit. And just unscientific and not sound whatsoever. And like you were saying before, people … she doesn’t understand that food is a relationship, and it’s a complex relationship. And the refusal to see anything other than like … she doesn’t even mention hunger as a reason to eat. Anything other than eating to a calorie control, anything else is incorrect. And we eat for an infinite amount of reasons and all of them make sense. And that’s what I love about intuitive eating, it doesn’t pathologise eating. It doesn’t pathologise hunger, it doesn’t pathologise fullness, and it doesn’t pathologise emotions as a reason to eat. And she clearly is. Seeing the function of how wonderful sometimes binge eating is as a way of protecting yourself from [inaudible] stuff. There’s no pathologizing in intuitive eating, but she’s full of pathologizing thinking that even to read statements like this, it doesn’t sink in. ANNA: She’s oversimplifying the whole thing; she doesn’t understand it at all. And this is where she moves into talking about the percentage of people that are successful versus not successful at diets. SHREEN: So, she acknowledges that 95-98% of diets fail. Is this where she starts talking about the Biggest Loser? ANNA: Yeah. SHREEN: She then starts talking about how the Biggest Loser, there’s a 30% extra success rate if you follow the Biggest Loser method. LOUISE: Really? SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: So, she basically says, she acknowledges that the studies are very clear that 95% of people are unable to sustain a diet or sustain that weight loss, not a diet. But she says that actually on the Biggest Loser it’s only 65% of people that fail. So actually … SHREEN: So, she’s basically saying “we’ve got this success rate, if you do this …” LOUISE: Which study is this published in? Because the only study I’ve read from season 1 which is the … ANNA: The six-year study? SHREEN: The six year, yeah, really interesting. LOUISE: There were 16 people, and 14 of them regained. I don’t think that equates to 65%. Am I …? ANNA: I don’t know but even so … no, she says 35. So, 30% more than … she says 30%, 35% are successful. SHREEN: But even the fact that she’s now saying that 95-98% of diets fail, and she acknowledges that, but all that she’s been talking about is dieting. Diet the whole way through. She’s just completely contradicting herself. ANNA: Not only is it that they don’t work, but she continues to spruik it, continues to say that it’s possible, and if you do it her way, the Biggest Loser way … they did 7 hours of exercise a day, with gruelling regimes and being pushed and yelled at … LOUISE: And they all put the weight back on. ANNA: They put the weight back on. SHREEN: yeah. LOUISE: And their resting metabolic rate was screwed, six years later. SHREEN: Yeah, 700 calories it decreased by. They lost lean body mass, their fasting glucose increased, their blood sugar levels, yeah. They were the main things. But the fact that their metabolic rate decreased by such a large amount … especially where we were saying, she’s telling people to only eat 1200 calories but then you’re going to follow the Biggest Loser method, your metabolic rate’s going to drop by 700 calories, then what are you going to do? LOUISE: So, she lied about the stats on the Biggest Loser, and she’s not even talking to people about the metabolic impact. Because that study was fascinating, and I talk to clients about it. Because they predicted, the researchers predicted how much their resting metabolic rate would be dropped by … ANNA: And what did they … LOUISE: And they found out it was even lower. So, they were worse off metabolically than they had predicted six years later. No one expected it to last that long, to have such a devastating impact. ANNA: Yeah, so it’s like a continued effect. It hasn’t regained back to before, pre … LOUISE: Exactly. And when stuff like that is suppressed, we know people are going to experience intense hunger, which of course you can’t honour. SHREEN: And the thing is, again, she’s completely misquoted this study herself but if she’d done her research she would know that there’s been over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done that show you have better body image, higher esteem, improved metabolism, decreased rates of disordered and emotional eating, diminished stress levels and increased satisfaction with life. That’s over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done. ANNA: And I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t say the same, with all of those positive effects, with dieting. LOUISE: No, especially the ones that use her supplements, which show that everyone puts the weight back on. And the Biggest Loser study, everyone puts the weight back on … but let’s not focus on whether or not the weight comes back on. It’s actually the damage to the body and the metabolic systems that’s just absent from her rant. SHREEN: And not even the psychological damage, that’s not even mentioned. LOUISE: She’s evidence of the psychological damage. SHREEN: Yeah. That is true, yeah. ANNA: So, the next one is … principle eight, respect your body. LOUISE: Oh, fuck. ANNA: So, I think going back to when she spoke about size 16 always equalling healthiness, I think that shows that she doesn’t have respect for all bodies. And that kind of bothers me a bit. SHREEN. A bit. A lot. ANNA: It’s a big part of like, you know, our approach here and being a Health at Every Size® professional, you know? It’s about honouring and understanding and respecting that all bodies are different and need something different. SHREEN: And that you can’t tell somebody’s health by their body size, and that’s such … it’s a huge misconception as it is, let alone, I mean, Jillian Michaels saying this and it’s just … ANNA: Yeah, and just recognising that bodies are diverse, and they will do different things. Your health looks different at different points in your life. What you need changes day to day, and only your body really knows. You know? No external source, no trainer, no Jillian Michaels, no Dr Oz, nobody knows your body. SHREEN: And the whole principle of respecting your body is about being kind to yourself and compassionate and self-care, which is the complete opposite of Jillian Michaels. Like, she is just not kind. She’s not compassionate. She’s just shaming, judgemental, mean. Like … yeah. She’s … I just don’t think she even understands the word ‘respect’, quite frankly. LOUISE: Unless it’s like ‘respect my authority”. SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: Something I noticed too, that came up before, was that because she’s so invested in it … have you heard of the concept of religion, like dieting? The religion of dieting? She’s so completely invested in it, she’s almost not willing to look the other way, or explore that there might be some truth in this, because she’s so invested, like financially and that’s her way of living … LOUISE: It’s her identity. ANNA: Exactly. LOUISE: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think Alan Levinovitz, ‘The Gluten Lie’ … ANNA: That’s the guy. LOUISE: He talks about this, the religion of diet mentality. She is definitely the Pope. SHREEN: Quote of the day (all laugh). ANNA: So, then we come into ‘movement, feel the difference’. Which is principle nine. SHREEN: I think this one really got us fired up, didn’t it? ANNA: Well, the first thing that she said was like, “what is this? I don’t know what this ‘militant exercise’ even means”. LOUISE: That’s so funny (all laugh). ANNA: Like, really? Are you sure? LOUISE: She’s like, world-famous on memes for [inaudible]. I think I even did a presentation once where I used her with her finger in her face at someone as a demonstration of militant exercise. ANNA: Yeah, the kind of exercise that you don’t want to do if you want to have a sustainable relationship with movement. LOUISE: Yeah, your name’s on the t-shirt, love. SHREEN: Just telling people in this thing that, you know, this myth that’s just not true – ‘no pain, no gain’, that only hard exercise counts, it’s just utter rubbish. All movement counts, it doesn’t matter what it is. From playing with your kids, to hoovering, to dancing around your living room. LOUISE: Hoovering doesn’t count, I don’t even know what hoovering is … ANNA: She’s talking about hoovering, the hoover … SHREEN: Vacuuming, is that more Aussie? LOUISE: No, I don’t understand. (all laugh). SHREEN: But like, movement can be anything and you get the exact same health benefits from any type of regular movement, doesn’t matter what it is. But what she’s just trying to … she’s just bringing movement and aesthetics, that’s what she’s talking about. She’s talking about … ANNA: That’s a really good point, because if she was really interested in somebody’s health, then any kind of movement would be accessible, you know, like … SHREEN: Beneficial. ANNA: Helpful, yeah. SHREEN: Your blood markers, and stress levels, and sleep, it doesn’t matter what it is, it has the same health benefits. But she’s not talking about health. She’s talking about the way you look. ANNA: Yeah. She’s talking about ‘results’ a lot, and “if you want to get results fast” … because you know, let’s face it, she says “if you’re coming to look at intuitive eating, you’re trying to lose weight, you’re trying to get results fast.” LOUISE: Jillian! ANNA: “You’ve got to do a certain type of exercise, and my programs do that”. So, a little bit of spruiking her own programs too. SHREEN: What she doesn’t realise that she’s doing is having that negative relationship with exercise is not going to make people want to do it. LOUISE: She doesn’t care about that. SHREEN: She’s the reason why people don’t want to go to the gym, or they hate exercise, because of people like Jillian Michaels. ANNA: Yeah, it’s that fitness trauma that you were talking about before. And what I recognise here, at the studio at Haven, community … in my experience, community has always been really powerful in building that sustainable and healthful relationship with movement. Joy and … SHREEN: And it’s that you enjoy, you [inaudible]. ANNA: And to want to come back, too. And that militant approach might work well for someone who responds to that but maybe for a short time. And then that motivation kind of wanes. And then it’s always trying to get back the motivation, you hear that a lot in fitness culture. But if you’re not coming at it from external, an external place, for external purposes, and it’s more about the … SHREEN: The way it makes you feel, using it as a tool for self-care rather than punishment … ANNA: Your mental health, having fun with your friends, it’s a completely different experience to being yelled at by Jillian Michaels. SHREEN: Her whole thing is yelling at people, making them feel guilty, punishing them. Like, and that’s just not what people need in a fitness professional. They need someone who is kind and compassionate and she’s just … that’s just not her, unfortunately. She’s just giving … ANNA: What is she? She’s the Pope of … the religion of dieting. She’s also the epitome of diet culture. She’s all of those things. And then the last principle is gentle nutrition, principle ten. LOUISE: I think this actually blew up her brain. SHREEN: Yeah, because she couldn’t understand the whole diet … principle one, principle ten … LOUISE: She couldn’t figure out how that fits with unconditional permission to eat. Because of course, if you have unconditional permission to eat, you’re going to stick your face into a burger for the rest of your life. ANNA: Yeah, so again she thinks it’s all just endless eating. LOUISE: She’s stuck in that ‘all or nothing’ mentality. ANNA: Exactly, yeah. SHREEN: It’s funny, because she talks about that ‘black and white, all or nothing’ mentality and not understanding that’s exactly what she’s saying. Yeah. ANNA: Yeah, and again it came up just very, very clear that she hasn’t read the book, she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. SHREEN: Yeah, I think that’s the main … ANNA: This is when she said, you know, “it’s probably written by someone who has just really been hurt by diet culture and probably had an eating disorder, and, you know, probably just some random” and actually … LOUISE: Such a shame that she didn’t actually look at the author. SHREEN: Yeah, just even look up to who they were. Yeah. ANNA: It’s a little bit disappointing because you’d think somebody who has such a following, I think, has such a … I think there’s a moral obligation in a way to represent something that … when you have such a big following and you’re sharing something that can affect people deeply … SHREEN: It’s what we say, that she’s really coming from that dieting mentality and all that sort of shaming that she doesn’t understand that intuitive eating at its core is a self-care model. It’s very compassionate and she doesn’t understand that. Also. with intuitive eating, we’re not saying that it’s a solution for everybody. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body. She just doesn’t understand the concept at all, what it stands for. ANNA: It’s like she’s on such a different planet, and it’s not … doesn’t come across as open to exploring that this might be something that really serves people. SHREEN: Yeah, and that it’s having such a positive impact. We talked about earlier with the … ANNA: Feeling a bit threatened by the impact on her, you know, her … LOUISE: To her bottom line. I also think that, I mean, if she really is undernourished to that point that she has restricted her entire life, one of the things that happens when you’re weight supressed is cognitive rigidity. ANNA: That’s a really good point. LOUISE: So, it’s quite hard to be flexible. We see that a lot with people who are suffering in the depths of Anorexia, that you simply cannot think. And perhaps there’s an element of that that’s happening here. ANNA: That’s really interesting. SHREEN: That’s a really good point. Because what dieting, that kind of restriction is doing to you … LOUISE: Well, it gives her massive benefits. Huge amounts of recognition, it gives her income. She can’t think out of it. So, there’s not a lot of reason for her, like … I think the reason for putting up that video wasn’t a genuine exploration of “what’s this thing called ‘intuitive eating’?”. SHREEN: It was just to … LOUISE: It was just to kind of … ANNA: Debunk it. LOUISE: To debunk it and keep hold of her customer base. Look, let’s assume that she is interested in the book. Jillian Michael’s house is in Malibu, California. I reckon we just whack a copy in an envelope, address it to her, maybe she’ll read it. ANNA: Do you think? LOUISE: Yeah? I don’t know. Maybe if all of our listeners whack a copy into an envelope … SHREEN: Yeah! LOUISE: 20 copies, please read. Maybe. SHREEN: Maybe, yeah. LOUISE: But I don’t think that was anything other than a … it’s quite interesting, I’m seeing this more and more. The famous people, the people who have really invested in diet culture, even the obesity researchers and all of that. They’re all kind of getting a little bit nervous about this pushback. SHREEN: They should be. LOUISE: It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. SHREEN: It’s time. LOUISE: It’s got nothing to do with the champagne. I think the celebs are getting nervous, like “what do you mean, people in larger bodies are okay with themselves just the way they are?”. And finding non weight-loss things to look after themselves, oh my gosh. What a huge, horrible threat. So, we’re not sorry, Jillian, that we made you nervous. ANNA: Agreed. I hope it gives her a little bit of food for thought (all laugh). LOUISE: I don’t know how many calories would be attached to that thought (all laugh). ANNA: I have to say, like, the thing that I think fires me up the most is how fatphobic she is. SHREEN: And how much harm … that’s the thing that fired me up the most, how much harm she’s causing people out there. And having had an eating disorder myself, it’s just … LOUISE: Horrible. You can see how triggering it is. SHREEN: I can see what it can do, yeah. That’s what fires me up. LOUISE: and let’s not forget when we say fatphobic, we mean people who hate fat people. And that is really reflective … even though she is professing “oh, I’m going to love you … but you’re unhealthy so change”. That’s troubling. Using health as a halo, an excuse or a reason for my core treatment of you just based on your appearance. And that’s just … those days are done. You can’t do that anymore. It’s just not cool. And I do wonder if there is like a Biggest Loser university somewhere? ANNA: Michelle Bridges went to it as well. LOUISE: Because the same kind of hatred of fat people, you know … again, like masked with a thin layer of concern trolling for your health was Michelle Bridges’ thing. Four years ago, when she was on Australian Story and she was saying “I’m yet to meet someone who is morbidly obese and happy”. So, for people who are listening from overseas, Michelle Bridges is the Australian version of Jillian Michaels. And what an awful comment. So, Jillian has been pushed back against from this video, right? Michelle was pushed back against from this video too, with really clear … I know we all live in a bubble, but with quite a lot of push back. ANNA: That’s good. Was she on … was that on like Australian primetime TV? SHREEN: She was on Australian Story. LOUISE: Yeah [inaudible] … it shows how deeply she feels [inaudible] about people she’s profiting from. Putting them through three cycles a year of 1200 calorie program and she knows it doesn’t work. But the thing is, what they do is they double down. People like this double down, when they’re called out, when there’s a pushback. Instead of kind of opening up and say, “okay, I should probably issue an apology, maybe take the video down, maybe do some work”. They’re not doing that. Jillian’s not doing that. ANNA: I think she just keeps responding. And she’s just responding with the same rhetoric, so she’s not … SHREEN: I think she kind of comments that [inaudible], to learn about it more, which is a shame. ANNA: And how did Michele Bridges respond? LOUISE: Doubled down on it. About health, “I care deeply about health”. ANNA: The whole thing with health and weight, this is what really frustrates me about it too. If she’s really interested in health, she could support all the behaviours that support someone’s health. LOUISE: Too complicated. Remember? Too complicated. Anything that actually involves having to think about something other than my own diet plan … ANNA: It makes me realise how happy I’ve become in moving away from all this, that’s why I got away from it. Because I learned about how there’s another way. Intuitive eating, Health at Every Size®, the body positivity movement … I started delving into it and it just felt so triggering being around other fitness professionals from the traditional approach. And this here, I’ve got to say, got me so fired up. I’m going to be fired up for a while from this. SHREEN: We talk about fitness trauma, and Jillian Michaels is causing that. LOUISE: May she go the way of the dinosaurs and … (all laugh). ANNA: Well, hopefully there will be less and less of her to be seen in the future and more and more of kind of this messaging coming up, challenging … LOUISE: Absolutely, I absolutely think that’s going to happen. You’ve just reminded me actually, she … because Jillian, earlier in the year before she posted the nasty intuitive eating thing, she said something nasty about Lizzo. SHREEN: Yeah, of course. ANNA: That sounds familiar … SHREEN: Yeah. That was before … LOUISE: A little while before, I don’t know. It’s Covid, none of us have a timeline. ANNA: She’s said some pretty horrendous things. SHREEN: Really horrendous things yeah. LOUISE: Again, like … “she’s clearly going to get diabetes” or something? ANNA: I think she said something along the lines of “there’s nothing sexy about diabetes”, or clogged arteries or something. SHREEN: Something like that, yeah. ANNA: How can she … that’s so inappropriate. Lizzo’s bouncing away on stage. She’s got stamina, she’s got energy. SHREEN: We don’t know anything about her or her health. ANNA: And why do we have to talk about that anyway? She’s this amazing performer and doing this really cool stuff. It’s wonderful to see some diverse bodies out there that are getting out there as much as the other, the thin ideal that you see everywhere. LOUISE: Yeah, the comments that she made were like “why are we talking about Lizzo’s body, we should be talking about her music”. ANNA: So, she said that? LOUISE: Yeah. ANNA: But then … LOUISE: And it’s really funny, because she’s saying that we shouldn’t be talking about Lizzo’s body, but her entire website is full of shots of her body. ANNA: Yeah, and that’s her thing. SHREEN: That’s her thing, yeah. ANNA: She’s always talking about people’s bodies. Size 16, yeah. SHREEN: Yeah, non-stop. LOUISE: The point I’m making is that you don’t say that about Lizzo. And the pushback she got after she made that comment? This is the future Jillian. Lizzo is setting the world on fire. ANNA: We need more Lizzo. SHREEN: We need more Lizzo. LOUISE: and you are the biggest loser. ANNA: Well put. LOUISE: Oh my god, let’s finish on a high note. Thank you, guys, that was an elegant unpacking of Jillian Michael’s ten principles of not understanding intuitive eating (all laugh). And how firmly we can steer the ship to this new awesome way of looking after our body. ANNA: Thank you. SHREEN: Thank you. Resources Mentioned: (Watch if you can stomach) Jillian Michaels' Igno-rant on Youtube Urbszat, Dax, C. Peter Herman, and Janet Polivy. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet: Effects of anticipated deprivation on food intake in restrained and unrestrained eaters." Journal of abnormal psychology 111.2 (2002): 396. News article about 4 lawsuits against Jillian Michaels for her weight loss pills Fothergill, Erin, et al. "Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition." Obesity 24.8 (2016): 1612-1619. Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven Find out more about Shreen El Masry and Be You Be Free

covid-19 united states tv jesus christ california world health donald trump news australian putting eating journal diet effects rant eat accept oz pope aussie cope intuitive lizzo correct obesity herman persistent michaels malibu intuitive eating anorexia biggest loser in person myfitnesspal every size jillian michaels health at every size haes resch australian stories michelle bridges alan levinovitz all fired up anna it anna yeah igno anna oh anna you anna so anna well anna thank anna how

Jillian Michaels' Igno-Rant About Intuitive Eating

All Fired Up

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 13, 2020 72:28 Transcription Available

Merlin Griffiths: 'We are creative, resilient, adaptable – this is hospitality!'

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 30, 2020 19:41

In this episode I talk to Merlin Griffiths, pub owner, mixologist and bartender on Channel 4's First Dates. We discuss current difficulties in the hospitality industry and how you can cut your costs. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on running a hospitality business and the latest COVID-19 measures. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. We've paired up with Smart Energy GB to bring you this episode. Would you prefer to read Merlin Griffith's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Merlin Griffiths, pub owner, mixologist and bartender on Channel 4’s First Dates. Merlin grew up in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire. He used to own the Priory Tavern in north west London, with his wife, Lucille. These days he runs Maltsters Country Inn, located in Badby. Cocktails are a staple speciality on Merlin’s menus as he’s been a bartender and mixologist for 20 years. He first appeared as the bartender on First Dates in 2013 and the show is currently on its 14th series. We’ll be finding out a bit more about him as well as the challenges facing the hospitality industry. Anna: Hi Merlin. Merlin: Hi Anna, thank you for having me. How are you doing? Anna: Of course – I'm doing very well, thank you. How about you? Merlin: Yeah, yeah, all things considered, well, I think, yeah. Now, many of our listeners would recognise you as the man behind the bar on First Dates. Tell us more about how you got into the hospitality industry and then onto the show. Merlin: Hospitality – what a trade to be in! It's one of those things, isn't it? Do you plan to go into hospitality? Some people do they really do? I don't think I did. I was quite young, when I first started working as what we call a barback, up in the West End of London. I think I lucked out by getting into the right bar at the right time. This was just as that cocktail renaissance was starting to happen in the mid-90s. Yeah, for me, I mean, it was one of my first jobs in London. I was just happy to have a job really, to work all hours all days or, yeah, do just about anything necessary. You know, it wasn't probably until about five or six years in and you start going, ‘I'm still doing this?’ This is more than just a stopgap of a job, isn't it? Yeah, I think this is now officially a career. And yeah, that's where it's led to now via corporate money. I had a good stint working for five-star hotels out in India for Taj hotels. I was living in Bangalore for a good while. From there, I was headhunted into Bacardi Global, as one of their global ambassadors for Bombay Sapphire gin and Oxley gin at the time. That was a great experience – almost four years bouncing around the world teaching people how to make martinis and from there into pub ownership. It was at that point where we suddenly thought, my partner and I, we’ve been looking at this, and especially on my travels – I've been in America loads – I have this idea that a good American neighbourhood bar, you can still get a really well-made Cosmo or Margarita as well as decent draft beer. And I had this idea that why can't you do the same in a sort of a British pub setting, you know, the cocktail side of things, the drink side of things shouldn't really be mutually exclusive. Cocktails and cask ales, quite literally. So that's sort of where we started cocktails and cask ales and no screens and no machines, because I decided there were enough TVs in pubs at the time as well. Pubs should be sociable. And so that's what it led to that. And it was while doing that, there was a job advertisement for Channel Four. They were looking for a bartender. That's it, it was literally advertised as a job and I was like, ‘Okay, I think I could pull out a small amount of time to have a go at that too’. And I was lucky enough to land it – it’s a fantastic role which I've really, really enjoyed. Just out of curiosity, how do you get headhunted as a barman? What kind of things are they looking for and who approaches you? It’s an odd one, you see, because the social media side. You go online these days and you can find loads of really good bartenders up and down the country and all around the world. There's a really developed network nowadays. But we're going back ten years and it wasn't as developed as we know it now. For me, moving into the job of First Dates, for instance, I was very lucky thanks to the Bacardi Global support. I've done a whole bunch of videos of online training and bits and bobs for them at the time. If you if you literally just search ‘find me as a cocktail bartender’, there were about three pages of me making nice and dry martinis, and Tom Collins [cocktails] and so on and so forth. So really, I think, you know, a certain amount of luck, but at the time. These days, you really have to work hard for it. Anna: I imagine it's not just the showy, throwing bottles over your shoulder and setting things on fire, either. Merlin: No, but that's also fun. Obviously, I was never much of a flair bartender. For me, it always has been about customers and customer service. That's the real key for me as a people business. And I've always said that. The clues in the name hospitality: we’re hospitable. And that's genuinely what we get up to here. It's not about how well can you can mix a martini or how well you can keep your cask ale, all of that. At the same time though, what's really important is how you deal with people, I don't like to use the word customers – ‘guests’ is better. You know, how you deal with your guests, who become friends as well, your local community, especially in the pub game. There is loads to think about when it comes to running a pub. When you took on Maltsters, it was in pretty bad shape when you took it on. How did you turn it around without blowing your budget? Merlin: Slowly but surely, evenly divide the task up piecemeal, otherwise these places can become. Anyone who's taken an old pub or an old, an old tumble-down pub. Why call nil-premium size, anyone who's done that journey knows what I'm talking about, when you have to divide up the task because otherwise it can become overwhelming. Unless you've got unlimited budgets and contracts as to throw it all in one big hit, which let's face it, most of us don’t. I know that at small business level we tend to sort of bootstrap our way up. First things first, yes, I'm going right what obviously, I need to get the kitchen, clean, comfortable, hygienic. Once you do that, we need a basic bar and trade area. So they're the first two things you look at, then we start looking at upgrading the function room, then we start looking at doing the gardens, then we can start looking at doing any of the letting rooms that are available here and things like that. Slowly but surely, now we're only just over three years into our journey here. There's still lots more to do. But you just take it one chunk at a time and make it manageable. One of the things I noticed when I was looking around was that the TripAdvisor reviews before you took [the Maltster] on were also not great, they tended to be one star. How do you recover from these kind of bad TripAdvisor reviews (or other platforms that are similar)? Merlin: I don't know in all honesty. I don't really keep an eye on that side of it. I'd rather keep my eyes on the people that are coming in and the customers that I do have. I think it is as a small business, it's a whole other job managing online and especially getting involved in managing reviews. Some people do very well at it, my hat goes off to them. I decided that my efforts are better placed elsewhere in the business, in looking after those people that I can see in front of me and those people that phone me here to make bookings. Anna: Do you think it was worth would be worth hiring a separate person altogether to deal with that side of things? Merlin: If you can afford it. I don't know if I can! I mean, that's what sort of segways neatly to the work I've been doing with Smart Energy GB as well with this guide advice. I mean budgets are tighter than ever at the moment. Crikey. You’ve been vocal on Twitter about how the government has been handling measures affecting the hospitality industry during the coronavirus pandemic. What do you think of the action being taken and what measures would you like to see? Merlin: Honestly, I don't think it's my place to say yay or nay. It's too easy to bash any point of view that people might have at the moment or any approaches that have been taken, realistically, as a small business owner from talking, honestly, so much of it's out of our control. And so much of it is out of my control, at the end of the day, whether I agree with things or not. And in all honesty, what I've really spent since March and up till now doing is looking at what I can control, because it's so easy to feel helpless in these situations. It really is, you know, when you're faced with ever higher hurdles to jump, ever more onerous bits of legislation to go through. But with the help of peers as well, I stay in touch with a large network of publicans these days. One of our groups, we've got about 250 of us chatting away. And it's lovely to be able to bounce ideas off each other and get advice about ways of doing things. This helps you feel more in control, honestly. That's really useful. Because otherwise, it's very easy to get quite down about the whole thing, angry and shouty, or just generally depressed and withdrawn. And, yeah, it's tough. I'm not going to say it's easy. But nonetheless, by approaching this with the idea of what can I control, it certainly makes you feel a little bit better. Ordinarily, I’d be asking about what small improvements hospitality businesses can make to improve and grow, but unfortunately the situation is different right now. What advice do you have for these business owners to get through this time, both professionally and personally? Merlin: I'll start with the personal one. You know, honestly, for me, do one non-work activity that brings you joy, at least once a week. Honestly, it really does feel like we're hardwired to work 24/7, but it is important to try and do that one thing that's just for you, however much you convince yourself that there isn’t time. I cycle – that's my thing. I'll take a couple of hours each week and go for a long ride. I'll get, you know, I'm really sorry. I'm one of those weirdos who dresses up in Lycra. Anna: Oh no, I’m a keen cyclist myself – no judgement here at all! Merlin: I don’t know what age you turn into, what do they call it, a MAMIL (Middle-aged Man in Lycra)? Anna: You’ve got time yet! Merlin: Good, thank you. But honestly, seriously, what I say just do this one thing that brings you joy, even really, if that's something as simple as pulling yourself down to the local park, right, sitting on a bench in some peace and quiet with a cup of tea or coffee and reading a book or doing the crossword, whatever it takes just to try and remove yourself for a moment. It's incredibly important. I think whether people realise it or not, there's this underlying bubbling stress and tension, and especially more so as a small business operator these days. In the survey work that we've done here, as well as 69 per cent of changes in their financial situation has led to negative impacts on their mental health. So, all of that needs to be dealt with, somehow, it really does, before it bubbles over. You can't hold it in. Talk to people as well, you know, utilise your peer networks, really. Friends are really wonderful if you've got a good friend and will listen. But sometimes there are sector-specific things and business owner-specific things. It does help to talk to other people in the same situation in the same boat. Try and get involved in some of the groups that are out there, you know, maybe just to vent a little bit and get it off your chest. Anna: Yeah, I think as a business owner, sometimes you're inclined to put other people, namely your employees, first. Merlin: Always employees. They're like a little family. Honestly, they're extended family. Any small business person knows that, they're the biggest asset you have in your business, your team, your staff, your people. You’ve got to look after them. I mean, in March that was that was the first thing was stressed us – what are we going to do, that stuff we need to make sure they looked after? Like many of us, we looked at our cash flow and thought, ‘Oh, crikey’. Well, it's going to be a while before we get the furlough payments into pay them. So how do we go about this without also bankrupting the business? The true way to look after my staff is to make sure that they've got jobs to come back to as well. You know, and so yeah, we had some very frank and honest discussions with our staff, and they were absolutely brilliant. They worked with us and completely understood. I think we were incredibly lucky to have the team that we do, we really are. I love them all to bits. We've seen on the website that with the increased rate of redundancies, more and more people are interested in starting their own business. What would you say to somebody who wants to start a hospitality business? Merlin: It's hard work but go for it. Honestly. Put in the hours and you get the rewards, quite frankly. It's a great trade to be in. I think it's an absolutely great trade. I've been there – 25 years now behind bars and involved in hospitality in one way shape or form. And ten of those as a landlord. It is absolutely tremendous. I'd say that's awesome. Do it. You know, ONS stats say that 99.6 per cent of British businesses are classed as small to medium businesses. Anna: Most are micro businesses too. Merlin: Yeah, most of those are micro businesses usually. So, best part of six million. It was Napoleon quote who said Britain is a nation of shopkeepers, wasn’t it? Yeah, that hasn’t changed. You know, the small business is what makes this country tick. It absolutely does. It's so incredibly important. Absolutely important. And it's not just that, and it's not just the standards we hear about, you know, jobs in the economy and so on. This is families, livelihoods, children, the socio-economic impact here at a macro level is really far-reaching is incredibly important. It's really easy to sort of get the view these days that Britain's dominated by big business, but of course, they've got marketing budgets, and that's why you hear about them. But really, as you can see from those statistics, 99 per cent it's small to medium – all hail the little guys. I'm going to head back – we started this or with advice as well for small business owners. Let's have a look. What else have we been recommending to people? Controlling controllables is what I wanted to touch on, really. Rent, this is a really big one, but you've got to open conversations with the landlord, haven't you at the moment. Trust me, it's tough to keep calm, but you have to keep calm and do that with a level head. Yeah, again, staff you need to control. This is looking after them in the best ways possible. And now if you're doing this alongside changing your business as well, hopefully, maybe you could find other ways to pick up some hours for staff if you're been exploring the possibilities to go. Normally I serve a bit of food or a bit of drink, but suddenly, well, now you start looking at your site going, ‘I got a licensed A3 space, it's a commercial site. What else can I do with it?’ This hopefully brings out new work, new workflows, new ways of operating, whether that's local groceries, setting yourself up as a sub postmaster, you might do local deliveries, hot takeaway, cold takeaway, there are so many different bits and bobs going on here. There are operators even doing full meals to cook at home from their kitchens, bathrooms being sent out, that there are so many different things. But these are good ways to assure your business so you can provide the hours for your staff. And then you start looking at utilities, get a handle on utilities, and honestly, there again, they're an important part of what you do. And this is where you get into this idea of marginal gains. I'm a big fan of marginal gains, they are a great thing as long tail effect, because if you do enough of them, they actually start adding up to be a significant gain for your business. Anna: If people want to make those marginal gains, how would they go about that? One of the clearest easy wins, contact your energy supplier and see if you can get a smart meter. I think it's a really good, sensible thing to do. up to date information on how your business is running and how much things are costing is essential now more than ever. This is more than just turning lights off. You could start controlling your stock levels, your exposure, and that sort of sense. Tighten up your menus to focus on the crowd pleasers and the profitable dishes and so on. I want to know how much stuff costs to run now, I really do. I've got a sneaking suspicion that I'm going to be able to save a fortune on extra kitchen extracts and some of the electrical hardware in the kitchen, especially, you know, I'm interested to look at when my chef turns this on, when he turns it off, is it actually necessary at certain points If I can save maybe eight to 12 hours’ worth of electric a day, and trust me, you're talking high kilowatt devices here. Ronnie, you know, he was running an electric pizza oven, for instance, out there, they know this is a 12 kilowatt device. Yeah, this isn't small beans we're talking about anymore. These are ways of controlling what you can, knowing that you've trimmed the fat, made your business lean, all those little these things, again, tend to be little things that are going on. They also tend to be at normal trade times, tends to put these things on a back burner – ‘Oh, yeah, I must have looked at that one point’ or they’ve got a whiteboard in the office or a Post-It note somewhere or a to-do list or what have you. And you sort of eventually get around to them. Now is the time to dive into all of that stuff and start getting a really good handle on what you do and the way you work and being prepared to change as well. We all have to adjust. Anna: Yes, it’s also amazing what some small business owners have done in adding in new kinds of services. Merlin: Yeah, it's fantastic for the rural side of things. I'm loving the fact that loads of rural pubs, for instance, are reinstating lost village services like post offices and shops. The fantastic thing is if you look at them as standalone things, I can see why they largely closed in a lot of small villages. It's very difficult to make a profit as a small village shop, given the cost of renting a building, and so on and so forth these days. If you're already doing that as a pub, and you've got the space to expand to a retail offering, right now it's a given win and you're engaging with your community now in new ways, by restoring the services, it’s fantastic. Let's not forget a lot of rural communities as well have people who will be shielding in certain ways or you know, just sort of largely keeping out society's way. So, a chance for them to literally just be able to walk down to the end of the street and get a bottle of milk or something without having to go into town is huge for them. Absolutely huge. Anna: Is there anything else you'd like to add? Merlin: I tell what I will add. Really plug into these hospitality networks, the industry networks, take advice where you can get it, speak to your accountant. If you don't have an accountant, take free financial advice from your bank as they will always be happy to give it, but wherever you can, take that advice. The more people you speak to, the more you suddenly realise you're not alone in all this. And there are ways still to sort of keep the glass looking half full, even though it may look half empty, if I can be so frank. But we are, as I say, creative, resilient, adaptable, this is hospitality! Challenges are something we routinely rise to, something we're very good at overcoming in this business. Anna: Well, that seems like the ideal note to wrap up. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast, Merlin. Merlin: Thank you so much for having me on, Anna, thank you. Watch Merlin in First Dates on Channel 4’s catch-up service, All4. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on COVID-19 measures and running your hospitality business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.

Theo Paphitis: 'My school showed me the door at 16 because I was a lost cause'

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 30, 2020 18:48

In this episode I chat to Theo Paphitis, businessman, retail expert, shopkeeper and former Dragon. We discuss tips retail during COVID-19 and his experiences of surviving school and becoming a business owner with dyslexia. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on running a retail business and supporting employees with dyslexia. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Theo Paphitis' podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. In this episode we have Theo Paphitis, businessman, retail expert, former Dragon and shopkeeper. Born in Cyprus, Theo came to the UK at age of seven, living in Manchester then London. He left school at the age of 16 with no qualifications after having struggles with dyslexia. He started work as a filing clerk in a Lloyds of London brokerage, moving on to Watches of Switzerland at the age of 18. He had a stint in insurance then returned to retail, taking on names such as Ryman, La Senza and Robert Dyas. In spring 2011, he launched lingerie brand, Boux Avenue. Since then he’s created the Theo Paphitis Retail Group encompassing the aforementioned retail businesses and the London Graphic Centre, which he acquired in 2016. In 2005, Theo joined Dragon’s Den and in 2012 to focus on his growing retail empire. He came back for a few episodes last year to fill in for Touker Suleyman. 10 years ago, Theo started Small Business Sunday, #SBS, where entrepreneurs describe their businesses via Twitter. Theo retweets his favourites to his audience to boost their exposure. Today we’re going to be talking about retail in the age of COVID-19 and what it’s like being a business owner with dyslexia. Anna: Hi Theo. Theo: Hello! That was quite some introduction. Anna: Oh, I know. I tried to shorten it, but it’s just come out as ‘Theo’s done quite a lot of stuff!’ Theo: It keeps me busy. Anna: How are you today? Theo: I’m good, thank you – in a very soggy Wimbledon. Anna: Yeah, it seems like that all over the UK. I’m up in Scotland and it’s much the same. But that’s very much, you know… Theo: I did refrain from butting in there but thank you for doing that for me! Let’s crack on. I’d like to go back to – I believe you were 15 years old at the time – you opened up a school tuck shop, so retail must’ve been in your blood from quite early on. What was the inspiration behind that? Theo: Well, the inspiration was actually a need. I didn’t even know what retail was. I’d been in shops, obviously, but at that age – 14, 15 – there was a need at the school. We didn’t have a tuck shop. And on the basis that I didn’t enjoy school very much and I wasn’t a model student in classes. When I suggested to the school that they fund me to do so, they jumped at it because I didn’t have to sit in class for too long, being disruptive. I’m sure that was the main reason. I thought it was a great opportunity, it was great fun. It was great to learn on the job, overcome problems – of which there were many – everything from litter to security to stock control. All the things that us shopkeepers do day-to-day now. So, your first retail job was at Watches of Switzerland and you sold a Rolex on your first day. Tell me what that was like and how did it spark your love of retail? Theo: On my first day, it was all very different for me from what I was doing as an office clerk before. There’s no paperwork involved, just loads and loads of shiny things. Watches and all bits and pieces. I spent the morning having my induction by the manager. And then I was let loose on the shop floor, a customer came in and there I was, extolling the virtues of the Rolex Oyster, that I’d only just heard of barely an hour ago. All of the information that’d been fed into me came blubbering out with some authority. And there you go – I had a sale. It was amazing. We know that one of the things from this year is that online sales have exploded – what other changes in consumer habits have you noticed this year? Theo: When we went into lockdown, I said quite publicly that the longer this goes on for, the more consumer habits will change. And in fact, within the second week, I could see that digital was accelerating at unprecedented rates and I estimated at the time that we’d had at least five years of acceleration in the adoption of digital in the time from the end of March 2020 until the end of June 2020. Eventually, it was always in our businesses plan, investment in the digital side, that a lot of our business would go online. So, we’d already invested quite heavily as a business. But the acceleration in those three months was phenomenal. We weren’t expecting to get that level of increase until about five years’ time. Actually, coming back to that, your business portfolio is made up, as we heard in the intro, of a lot of retail firms that are traditional to the high street. That must mean you have quite a lot of faith in the future of retail on the high street, despite what naysayers might say and an encouragement to move towards more predominantly digital businesses. What would you say to that? Theo: I think that like many retailers, we’ve got two legacy, very traditional brands in Ryman and Robert Dyas. Robert Dyas has been trading for over 150 years and Ryman for over 125 years, so they’ve been a big part of the fascia of United Kingdom high streets over those times. But our services within those and the things that we sell within those businesses have changed quite tremendously in that time. And we always anticipated that some of our stores just wouldn’t make it out of the other side. That was always going to be the case. It was just a matter of when. There’s no point in keeping a store open if you’re the last person standing and nobody’s visiting the high street. Or, in fact, because of short-termism. And, quite honestly, workshy politicians not reviewing the business rates, which in itself has killed so many high streets. It’s not the rent, it’s the ancillary costs. We’d already planned for that. That doesn’t mean we had plans to shut all of our stores – far from it. We just need to make sure that we focus on the stores where there’s a community. That was always the plan and remains the plan. You’ve talked about an acceleration in adopting technology, do you think there will be some sort of push to reduce or reform business rates [in the longer term]? It’s been talked about for some time. Theo: It’s been talked about forever, but I use my words very carefully. I use the word ‘lazy’. I use it a lot when it comes to various people that have held the seat at no.11 that just couldn’t be bothered to put the work in to repurpose business rates. Business rates is an archaic tax from the 1500s. Ye Olde Internet Shoppe would not exist in the 1500s. The Exchequer needs income, of course it needs income, otherwise how are we going to pay for our services? But you can just keep loading it up on what is a very easy tax to collect and then put people out of business because you reach the law of diminishing returns. They needed to repurpose taxation to reflect the new modern and digital age. It’s very difficult for people paying rent and rates when other people are trading out of warehouses and contributing very little. It needs to be balanced – it has always needed to be balanced – but even more so now. Of course, since March, the present Chancellor has absolutely done the right thing in suspending business rates, giving a business rates holiday. That expires in March ’21 and it’ll be interesting to see what he does then. I can’t believe for one minute that he would even contemplate bringing them back. If he does, that would spell the demise of many high streets and many trusted names within those high streets. What do you think should happen instead? Theo: I think we’ve got to relook at the way we pay taxes. It’s very simple – it’s not complicated. It requires work, but we’ve got to look at the different ways of collecting taxation, whether it’s a sales tax or any other form of tax you put on, that is fair and allows people to trade on a level playing field. I think that arguably, for a long time, the worry has been the wealthy individuals who benefit from having those business rates and high costs in place. Theo: The fact remains that, with landlords, we’ve been able to negotiate as footfall has gone down in various parts of the country. We’ve been able to sit down with landlords a lot. We’re taking a lot less money now. If you want us to remain in your store, then we can only afford to pay X or Y and in the main, they’ve agreed. We’ve got so many stores where the rates are higher than the rent. That can’t be right. And obviously, you can’t negotiate with the Exchequer. Absolutely. Do you think there are certain types of businesses that would move into empty high street spaces in the future, especially when things start to settle post COVID-19? Theo: What we’ve seen is the conversion of many high streets into old age people’s homes where they’ve just built loads and loads of retirement homes, sheltered accommodation because it’s in close proximity – right on top of the high street. If that’s what we’re planning – to turn high streets into retirement villages – then that’s a different story altogether because that’s what you’re going to get. But high streets have really been the backbone of the community. So, you start destroying it and everybody stays in their homes and you’ve got millions and millions and millions of vans driving around and polluting the atmosphere, delivering a £4 or a £5 or a £3 product. Does that really make sense? What do you think about a digital tax? Theo: The Exchequer needs to collect income and that’s a great way of doing it. I’ll move on a little bit here. In the intro we mentioned Small Business Sunday which, on the day of recording (October 12th), launched 10 years ago yesterday. In your view, what is the greatest success story to come out of SBS? Theo: It’s got 3000 businesses at different sizes, different levels of activity. The biggest success story is the fact that it exists, and it allows small businesses and medium-sized businesses, all of a sudden, to get a leg up, get PR, get a social media boost, support for other SBS winners in the network. It boosts sales. It offers opportunities for them to collaborate. It gets them together at our annual event to hear great speakers, talk to them and inspire them about what the future holds. Don’t forget that it’s really tough to be a small business – 50 per cent of businesses fail within the first two years. And that’s probably normal because they haven’t got the skillset, the information, the support that they need. Some fail and then go on to run really successful businesses because they’ve learned from their failures. So, the whole gambit of SBS is to try and assist to lower that failure rate and give support and all of the things that small businesses need. It’s tough – if you’ve got two or three kids and you’re running a business from your kitchen table and you’ve got to balance a household. Where do you go for help when things aren’t running your way? Who can you talk to that’s having or has had the same experience as you? I can guarantee that someone form SBS has and someone will be able to talk to you about it. And somebody when you’re having a tough time is going to be having a really good time and there’s nothing better than to talk to somebody to bring you out of those doldrums and give you that burst of enthusiasm that you desperately need to get you going. Anna: Sometimes that’s all you need – I’ve seen some of the comments back and forth on the thread and it’s quite the community. As mentioned in the intro as well, you struggled at school because you have dyslexia. From the research I’ve done, it seems like people with dyslexia felt discouraged at school (‘you have this, so you can’t do that’) but went on to be successful entrepreneurs because they worked hard at their other qualities, like social skills. How does that align with your experience of school and going into business? Theo: Oh, that describes me. When I turned 16, they showed me the door. Not because I was particularly disruptive, but because I was a lost cause. I wasn’t going to get any examinations. Anna: They dismissed you before you even took them? Theo: No, I did sit a few, but I ended up with great big ‘U’s. In fairness, I did get one certificate, and it was a Scottish certificate in colouring in maps. It was geography. And the reason I say it was a Scottish certificate is because we had the most amazing Scottish lady teacher who worked incredibly but had got all of our attention and made it very interesting. I always call it my Scottish certificate in colouring in maps. It was clear school wasn’t for me. Even to get through to 16, I had loads and loads of workarounds to try and get my work and homework done. I couldn’t do it in a traditional way. I was always problem-solving to try and achieve what other kids were achieving in minutes. It took me hours. I always found workarounds to deal with the issues so that when I actually went to work, dealing with issues and problems was a piece of cake – I’d been doing it all of my life. Some kids go to work, who had an academic upbringing at school, sit there and there’s a problem. Now they’ve got a problem. So that was one of the things that I benefited from. Anna: What do you mean when you say workarounds? Could you elaborate a bit? Theo: For instance, my first day at work, I had to go with a picture in my pocket. If I’m doing numbers – which I’m not bad at, to be honest with you – I couldn’t remember my times tables. It was a nightmare. But I could find workarounds. For instance, if I needed to do 12x12, it’d be 10x12 which is 120, and two more equals 24. That’d be 144. Or I’d break it down into fives or threes or ones to get there or find percentages. You always had to find different ways, it takes longer, but you get there. Anna: Exactly – and that’s what’s important. Theo: And then the biggest thing that changed my life was computers. I no longer had to worry about spelling or rubbish handwriting. All of these things I could get over, so I really embraced technology very early. Anna: That’s an advantage in a way, isn’t it? Theo: It is an advantage – and always has been – hence why I embraced eCommerce and digital and I embraced computers and had one of the first computers. I learned to program because there wasn’t any programs to give me what I wanted. I thought, “It can’t be that difficult, can it?” It gives you a push. It’s interesting to see that other entrepreneurs like Lord Sugar, Richard Branson and Jamie Oliver have dyslexia as well. Theo: Well, of course, a lot of dyslexic people are pushed to be entrepreneurs because they can’t get a job anywhere else. The key thing is that that it’s difficult to get a job when you can’t spell or you can’t read very fast. I can read, believe you me, I can read. Give me a contract and I will read it front to back and I will understand it and I will be as good as anybody else, but it will take me three times as long as anybody else to do. It’s just a speed thing. Exactly. Fortunately, we are in a better place now, especially in schools with picking up dyslexia earlier on, allowing longer exams and that sort of thing. But if you’ve got someone out there who’s still at school, has dyslexia and wants to be an entrepreneur, what kind of things would you say to them? Theo: Well, the good news is that it will be one of the least resistant paths open to them. You’ll find it hard to compete in the jobs sector when people have got all of these qualifications and you haven’t. But all I can say to them is make sure that when you become an entrepreneur, become an entrepreneur doing something that you love and are passionate about. You can become an entrepreneur doing lots of things but find something that you’re passionate about because on those dark, wet winter days, when things are not running according to plan and you’re down to your last few quid, you need that passion, that enthusiasm, that drive, to get you out of it. And if you’re doing something you’re not really passionate about, then you might, just might, throw in the towel. But it’s about doing something you’re passionate about. That’s the best chance of success. Anna: Well, that seems like a great place to wrap up. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Theo. Theo: Absolute pleasure. Find out more about Theo at theopaphitis.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on retail and supporting employees with dyslexia. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.

covid-19 business uk school lost pr united kingdom scotland dragon switzerland small business manchester scottish ecommerce wimbledon richard branson watches chancellor cyprus rolex showed sbs jamie oliver lloyds ryman exchequer lord sugar theo paphitis anna jordan anna yeah anna oh anna well anna how

They Say All Lives Matter. We Say Asians for Black Lives.

WATScast

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 5, 2020 30:14

Why is it that anytime someone states 'Black Lives Matter' someone responds with 'All Lives Matter'? We decided to ask our community for their thoughts. What's with some Asian American influencers not fighting for the cause? Is there value in the Asian-American vote? The tension between Blacks & Asians -- where did that come from? Shout out to Be the Bridge's Tasha Morrison & Faitth Brooks for the final takeaways. Be sure to donate to their non-profit for racial reconciliation at Be the Bridge #justiceforgeorgefloyd #justiceforbreonnataylor #justiceforahmaudarbery & justice to the all too many names of precious lives taken out of hate. Music by Joules. Artwork by Anna Oh. Follow @watscastpodcast on Instagram, Twitter, & Facebook.

black lives matter bridge asian americans artwork asians black lives lives matter joules anna oh

Tim Campbell: 'Only two of us knew what The Apprentice was!'

Achieve Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 20, 2019 19:57

In this episode I meet Tim Campbell, an entrepreneur and the first winner of The Apprentice back in 2005. We discuss his views on apprenticeships and the idea behind one of his more unusual business ventures. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on apprenticeships and grants. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the Tim Campbell's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Tim Campbell, an entrepreneur and the very first winner of The Apprentice back in 2005. Since working for Lord Sugar, Tim has launched Bright Ideas Trust, a charity for disadvantaged young entrepreneurs and Alexander Mann Solutions, a talent acquisition firm. We’ll be talking about what it was like to be in the first crop of candidates on The Apprentice and how to give interviewees useful, constructive feedback. Anna: Hello Tim. Tim: Hi, how are you, Anna? Good? Anna: Yeah, very well, thanks. A bit of a grim day but doing alright. How are you? Tim: Oh, if we didn’t have the weather to complain about, what would we have? Anna: Exactly! It’s the essence of being British. Tim: It is unfortunately, but let’s hope for better tidings to come. Anna: Awesome. Right, for a bit of context, we are recording in the Alexander Mann Solutions offices today – in a sound booth, which is very nice. Tim: It is indeed. But one of the interesting things that amazes me about London and is very exciting, is the juxtaposition between the old buildings we can see and the new cranes you can see everywhere. Anna: Exactly, yeah. It’s wonderful seeing the architecture of the new vs the old. You wouldn’t think they work together, but they do. Tim: That’s the thing about London – we make it work. That sings to the essence and the entrepreneurial nature of individuals from the UK. My mum was an entrepreneur, but she didn’t call herself an entrepreneur. She was just making ends meet, as it were. A Jamaican immigrant to the country who had three children and brought them all up to be relatively successful. But she always underpinned that with working hard, going out and earning a living. And London has always facilitated that and I suppose the inspiration for me in a lot of the things I do is my mum in that she came over with all the skills and attributes but didn’t have the knowledge, contacts or mentors to be able to do that. Do you think your mum didn’t call herself an entrepreneur because she didn’t go through the formal avenues of having a grant or a mentor? Tim: Definitely. She just didn’t have time to worry about the nomenclature, she was just focused on the outputs and I think that one of the things we talk about with the people that we either mentor or support is to strip it down to its bare necessities. Lots of people are very interested in the successful outputs of getting in business. They want the money, they want the accolades, they want the title and we have to start at the very beginning: ‘What problem is it that you’re solving? What is your business? Then we get some blank looks and they say, ‘We just want the money at the end. Can’t you just give me that?’ And I say, ‘Well, no actually – there’s a process to it.’ I think with my mum and me and the people we try and support, we try and encourage them not to focus on what the title is because titles are for corporate environments, whereas when you’re a business owner it doesn’t matter, particularly when you run a micro or small business, you do everything. But essentially, you’re focused on the output and delighting the customer. As long as you keep that at the forefront of your mind, then you can enjoy the pats on the back and the celebrations of what you’ve done. But never lose sight of why you’re in this and that’s to delight a customer and make them happy, and then get them to give you money as a result. The thing I’d like to talk about is your time on The Apprentice. You were on the very first series before anyone even knew what it was. Tim: A long time ago, neither did we! We didn’t know what it was. For the 14 contestants on the first show, there were probably only two people who did the investigation to find out exactly what The Apprentice was, which is a bit stupid to admit, but I’m going to be very honest. Anna: Was one of them you? Tim: Yeah. Anna: Oh really?! Tim: No, I didn’t. I was very naïve, I actually applied for a job with the main focus being to get the six-figure salary. That’s what I wanted. Because [the programme] wasn’t as popular as it is now and didn’t attract the millions of people watching every single episode, so it was a different beast. But when I applied, it was about securing a salary that would look after my family. And naïvely, I just applied thinking that 1) I was going to work with a great British entrepreneur in the then Sir Alan (as he is now Lord Sugar) and 2) it was a sizeable multiple on the money I was earning at the moment. I thought, ‘What could I lose?’ Little did I realise what you could actually lose, but that’s why I carried on with the application and thankfully it was a positive outcome. Yeah, that’s it – because people who apply now see it as a platform for a business idea that they might have and obviously you get the investment at the end. Tim: Correct. I suppose the thing for me is that the bigger opportunity for a show like that, apart from shouting and screaming at the contestants who don’t want to do the dreadful things they sometimes have to – or coming out with the ridiculous one-liners they seem to continually do every year without fail – is learning from Lord Sugar himself. He’s a brilliant entrepreneur in the truest sense of the word, in that he can spot problems, come up with solutions and deliver true value, not just to investors, but stakeholders, customers, in what he would be able to deliver. From what I’ve seen, there weren’t as many zingers in the first series as there were later on. What else is different between then and now? Tim: Probably because I was just boring. On the first series, I remember all of the contestants. All of us were really competitive – we just wanted to win. What we agreed on very early, was that the way we could secure victory was by not losing task and not falling out with each other. If we worked as a team, we’d actually do more. That must have been so annoying for the television producers because that’s not what they want to hear, but that’s what we had. When we went on task, we were going to be polite and civil. And when we were on task, we were going to be competitive, but not devious to the point where we would hurt other individuals. That wasn’t on our agenda. And that sung to our values – particularly me and Saira – who were project managers a number of times. Our values were that you could win without being negative to people. And I think that’s sometimes lost, particularly when people talk about business in general, where the image that people get is ruthless, belligerent character that kills everybody and steps on the heads of minor people to get to where they are. And there are some people who are like that in business, but the vast majority of people I’ve worked with – either on the show or in business in the real world – just want to survive. Anna: Those relationships are so important. Tim: It’s critical. What we took from our series was that the power of strong relationships helped you go further. As you said, the prize in the first series was a job with Sir Alan, back then. You set up his health and beauty division at Amstrad. Tim: It was a very interesting journey. You were asked on day one to come up with a health and beauty product. And I thought, ‘What is this?’ And what I saw it as was a test. What we were trying to do – and we did successfully, was replicate other multi-level marketing processes. We got other women to sell the products to other women. It was a very interesting two years I spent. The whole gambit of business was involved in that particular project. I look at it like it was a real-life MBA. It was phenomenal in terms of learning and experience. I still rub cream on the back of my hand now and say, ‘Ooo, isn’t that lovely?’ because I understand how it was all made. How was the reception of MLMs back then? Now we’re seeing a backlash, particularly with companies that don’t have a great reputation, make false promises, are quite exploitative. Tim: Yup, and I think people are right to see a backlash against those ones who don’t deliver against what they say they’re going to. The key thing that I learned from Lord Sugar was to deliver on your promises. The products that we put on were about empowering people to make a revenue from the products that we had already generated. But we had very clear outputs, a very clear rewards structure and had very clear marketing, which had no false pretence behind it. And the good thing about going on a television programme which had multi-million people viewing it is that you get held to account very quickly if you don’t do what you say you’re going to do. So thankfully, all of the work that we did was regulated, it was checked and verified by independent people and delivered against the promises. What we were really focused on was them learning about business while possibly generating some income for themselves as well as using a good, highly potent and effective product. If you were to go back on The Apprentice now and win the investment (£250,000) rather than the job, what would you do with it? Tim: Very interesting. I think if I were to do something today it’d be around artificial intelligence and some form of tech. You look at some of the industry sectors on a medium scale which are accelerating in excess of 20pc every single year and you’re immediately gravitating towards use of tech, particularly in the financial sectors. The fintech market has been amazing. I think there are some really interesting plays in the insuretech space and the edutech space. Education and people insuring against risk are never going to go away. If you look at some of the fast-growing businesses at the moment, they’re providing ancillary services behind businesses, so courier servicing, making sure that you can deliver consultancy advice and guidance into business. Or anywhere around tech in terms of promoting business propositions. Those are the areas I would’ve come up with a proposition for him to give me some money for. I know you’re supportive of apprentices. From a small business owner’s perspective, we’ve seen that some are put off hiring apprentices because they don’t have time to train them or they can’t afford them. What would you like to see that would make things easier? Tim: I think for small businesses you’ve got to make the decisions which are really important to your company. You can’t just follow on. It’s got to be right for you as a business. The difficulty with a small company is if you make a mistake the impact is much bigger than in a bigger company where you make a mistake, it might not be right, but you can move around and you’ve got the resources to absorb that. Small businesses have to make really critical decisions around can they take on an additional wage because when you take on an apprentice, it’s not a free resource. In my opinion, you have to pay them the living wage – and the London wage if you’re in the capital. Then you’ve got to work into the equation how long the value add is to you as a business owner. They’re going to have to learn the ropes and get off the ground before they become of value to you as a small business. And the training that comes with an apprenticeship – how valuable could that be to an organisation in making an assessment? It’s not for every small company, with the amount of supervisory element to an apprenticeship programme, the resources may not be there for a small business to be able to go along that journey yet. But it’s something that should definitely be on the agenda and maybe for the smaller to medium-sized businesses that are growing, as opposed to the micro businesses who are at the beginning. I’m going to take what is typically seen as a more morbid turn here. I understand that you are the director of a company called death.io. Tim: Yes, I am indeed. And rather than scaring lots of people, it should fill them with joy. What we have done, and when I say we it’s me, my co-founder Paul Wiseall and our chairman, Tom Ilube, have come together to start a company which is using artificial intelligence to help people better prepare for the inevitable. And the rather shocking title of ‘Death’, similar to the likes of Virgin or Google, makes you wonder what this is about, where is it coming from and it’s a bit of a shock factor. We want it to stick in people’s minds that this is one of the last taboo areas that you should be talking about. Because the whole industry is a conversation which happens behind closed doors, in hushed tones, and no one really wants to speak about it. There are so many different ways to talk about death. What we at death.io have done is utilise technology to help you live forever. We are able to take the essential elements of you as an individual and tell your story, tell us the significant moments of your lives and utilise technology to create a virtual person out of those recollections, which others can interact with. Is that verbally or in writing? Tim: Both! At the moment, we have a platform which allows you to talk using typed words back and forward to your avatar. But the developments are quickly incorporating voice into that. So very much like you might like you might tell a speaker to turn the lights or the music on in your house, you will have the ability to talk to yourself via one of those devices as well. Anna: Oh, that’s kind of eerie. Tim: In one way, I can understand why people think, ‘Oh my gosh, I don’t want that, where would that come from?’ But at the same time, bringing it to back business, I had the privilege of speaking to the head of the Chinese Takeaway Association. It was very interesting – I didn’t know one existed – but one does! What he said is that you’ve got a lot of people who have come over as immigrants to this country and worked really hard to build up fantastic businesses within every single major city in the world. They’ve done that to facilitate a better life for them and their children. What happens though is that these children go to fantastic schools, go off to university, and may decide that they don’t want to run Mum and Dad’s Chinese takeaway. What happens to all of that information? What happens to all of that insight around how you pick stock, how you purchase stuff, how you set up a marketing campaign to get people to do stuff? That information has to go somewhere otherwise it just passes with the individual. It’s also an opportunity for us to make sure people have their lives in order: have you got the right insurance in place? Have you got the right protection for your family going forward? We have the facility to let people do that in a nice, friendly, social way. Yeah, from what I saw I like the holistic approach of it, especially with the blog. It’s touched by so many of today’s topics like rapidly advancing technology, sustainability, gender identity. It’s fascinating. I like the tone as well – normally with traditional funeral care providers and planners there’s a formal and sombre tone where again, on the blog, it helps breaks the tension around, as you say, a taboo subject. Tim: We had a great conversation with a phenomenal agency called Ready Ten, started up by a very good friend of mine, David Fraser. He was the only agency that picked up the potential of this in terms of how you could turn this into a positive conversation. Their ideas around how you could really grasp a difficult subject like death – you have to talk about these things because they’re not going to go away. We want to take the stance of not making light of the conversation, but in lightening the conversation around subject matters that have to happen. Like, if you got sick, what would happen? What’s your blood type? I don’t know – most people don’t know! If you don’t know what your blood type is or you don’t know if you’ve got any hereditary diseases, we have a way to capture that and share the true essence of who you are rather than the curated bit that you might do through other social platforms. I think there are some interesting ethical questions around grieving, the way that people’s memories are held. Because we touch so many people, you might want me to come back alive, but I might’ve been really horrible to someone else who doesn’t want me to continue on living. What are the ethical implications of all of those? But for us as a platform, we want to give that ownership and option over to the individual. Where you can sign up to have this delivered in any way, shape or form based on what you feel those around you need. It’s not for us to act as judge and jury around that, but it’s going to be a very interesting development to see how far people want to take it. Well, I’d love to talk about this a bit more, but I must move onto our last topic. You’re an advocate of the Fight for Feedback campaign, encouraging employers to give interviewees good quality feedback. In your opinion, what makes quality, decent feedback from an employer? Tim: I think it’s incredibly important that employers to understand that they have a responsibility to leave candidates with a good candidate experience from their resource process. Why is that important? I was always told that it’s important to say goodbye in a nice way rather than just say hello in a positive way. Those people will tell another ten people exactly how you treated them. It’s very important from an employer brand perspective to make sure that employees – whether they’re successful or not in going through a process – leave with a good feeling. And the best way to leave with a good feeling is to be told ‘No, but this is how you could improve’. As employers, I think we all have a responsibility to raise the level of our candidates, and I think the only way you can do is alert them to what they can do better in the future. Let me make it clear, because there are lots of very big employers who are saying, ‘Hang on a second, Tim – we see hundreds of thousands of people every year for our placements.’ Yes, that’s true, there are a lot of people coming through. It would not be impossible to put a structure in place which says to individuals, ‘You might not get direct verbal feedback from every person you spoke to but we can at least highlight the areas that we didn’t select you on.’ There are so many candidates who talk about filling out an application, taking the time to nurture a CV and make it bespoke to that employer, write the covering letter, do everything necessary, and don’t hear anything – not even a ‘no’. That’s a very negative seed that’s been planted around that brand and the value that they place around the people who interact with them. And for me, just to be able to say, ‘No, but these are the areas you fell down’ is as powerful as a half-hour phone call with an individual to walk them through exactly what they could do to improve. Now, the scale of when you can do that may alter depending on how far they’ve gone through a process and how senior the actual role is. I don’t mind that. And the other thing to think about from an employer’s perspective is that it’s a two-way process. You could get some free marketing research from individuals who have interacted with you and they can tell you what they found and that can help you develop and get better as well. You can create a brilliant campaign, attract a fantastic funnel of talent, but you don’t know unless you’re asking them how they are receiving it. I think feedback is such a small thing to do which can have such a big impact on how people perceive that brand and how they will go and work in the future. So, if somebody has a big problem presenting information in a way, tell them, help them to be better and you never know, they might come and work for you in the future because of that feedback. Plant good seeds; give good feedback. Anna: Well, that seems like the perfect place to end it on, so I’ll wrap up there. Thanks ever so much for coming on the show, Tim. Tim: Thanks so much for having me, Anna. Let’s hope that the sun is shining now in London and elsewhere and that all of our businesses improve. Thank you very much for having me. Anna: It’s been a pleasure. You can find out more about Tim at timcampbellhq.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more information on apprenticeships and grants. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.

Ep#27 From Fourplexes to larger Multifamily and managing family while syndicating with Anna Kelley

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 5, 2019 47:31

James: Hey, audience. This is James Kandasamy. Welcome to Achieve Wealth through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, I have Anna Kelley from Central Pennsylvania, who owns around 175 units, around $16 million in worth until now. And you know, I should have invested passively in 900 units. And she's also under contract on around 200 units right now. Hey, Anna, welcome to the show. Anna: Thank you so much for having me. Good to see you, James. James: Good to see you too. And, I mean, for those who do not know, we also have a YouTube channel that shows all our interviews. And you can catch up with us on iTunes or Stitcher or YouTube or Spotify so go and do that. I'm actually in one of my property here in San Antonio so trying to do it from my office. And Anna, are you in your office or where are you right now? Anna: I'm in my home. I'm not actually in my office. James: Yes. Good. Good, we work from home, I guess, right. Anna: Yes. James: So Anna, why don't you tell our audience about yourself? Anna: Sure. So I started out in real estate about 20 years ago, just kind of dabbling in real estate. And I started out doing some property flips and some single-family rentals. And then I slowly started moving up to small multi-unit properties, like four-unit apartment buildings, 10 unit apartment buildings. And I recently last May retired from my full-time career, I worked for AIG for 20 years. And I really built my real estate portfolio up on the side, part-time for all of those years. So busy mom, have four children. And I just went full time. And now I'm focused on and have been focusing on for a while much larger apartment building assets. James: Got it. So let's go back to the beginning. I mean, you work at AIG, which is a big insurance firm. And can you just quickly tell us what was your role? Anna: Sure. So at AIG, I had various different roles. I did internal management, consulting, product development, and then I moved into a role that was very compliance heavy. We worked with private placement hedge funds wrapped in an insurance product. So we worked on SEC audits and filings, reviews of PBMs and hedge funds and things of that nature. James: Got it, so it looks like you have some PPM level syndication experience, even at your workplace, I guess, is that right? Anna: Definitely, we worked with alternative investments for about 17 of the 20 years that I worked there. James: So you work there for 20 years and when did you start to real estate venture? Anna: Why I'd say, you know, I dabbled, I bought some, you know, singles and I bought a flip. And then 12 years ago, when I moved from Texas to Central Pennsylvania to start my husband's chiropractic business, we were looking for properties to lease for his office space. And we found that it was very difficult to do that. But they had a lot of buildings that came with tenants, you know. Older buildings on Main Street that had been converted to businesses on the first floor, most of them had residential rental space on the top floors. And so we bought a building and inherited tenants. We had three tenants with his commercial space. James: Okay. Anna: And then that kind of threw me into the idea of having tenants and having a little extra cash to cover the mortgage. And then at that same time, James, we sold a house in Houston that we lived in, liquidated everything, we had to come here and start a business. And so I knew it wasn't very wise for me to buy another home right away. And AIG let me work from home on a very temporary trial basis to see how it worked out. So I bought a four-unit apartment building for us to live in. So we downsize significantly and house hacked, basically, to make sure that our business expenses, you know, for the space and our housing expenses were covered if I happen to lose my job, you know, 12 years ago when we started out. So that got me into starting to think about and invest in residential real estate. James: Got it. So you basically, you did not like had an ah-ah moment, I need to go tomorrow and buy real estate. You were actually thrown into it? Anna: Well, I'll say this before I went to work for AIG. I was in private banking, I was a Financial Relationship Manager for Bank of America. And so I handled the top 10% of the wealth in our bank, both small businesses and individuals. And what I found is that many of them owned real estate and had accumulated their wealth in real estate or were already investing in real estate. So in my young 20s, I was very interested in real estate thought that it was something lucrative that one day I'd like to own, but I really didn't start thinking too much about it until I had my first child in 2003. And all the flip houses shows, you know, we're coming on and I thought, oh, I can flip a couple of houses and be home with my child. And so I dabbled in flipping before the rental real estate. But my move here is what kind of gave me the impetus to think about rentals more quickly. James: Got it. So, I mean, I never had a woman guest until now. So you are the first one. And I'm very -- Anna: Oh, thank you. James: We have a lot of listeners that are listening everywhere and I'm sure a lot of them are women. So I'm trying to get from a woman’s perspective, on how could they start like what GF started, right? I mean, your husband is working and you are working too. Like, I would say what do you think could be the secret formula, or they're just the formula on how can any woman start while they are in your own position? Anna: Sure, you know, there are different ways to starting, a lot of it James truly does depend on the personality of the person, your family dynamic. You know, how much support you have for watching your children? What other income sources you have, you know, when you're starting out? And how much basically time and money that you have available to get started? So, you know, people that have very, very limited time might have the significant cash flow or they might, their spouse might make enough money that they could really get started more passively. And that's where maybe they want to start investing in other apartments syndications or getting invested as a passive partner maybe joint venturing with someone that has experienced you know, buying and managing either a single or a small multi or a larger and then just investing with money. And learning how to review the financials and review the operations each month and each quarter. Just to kind of get yourself familiar with what it's like to own and manage an asset might be a good way to get started. For someone like me, that doesn't have any cash and really wants to get invested by investing time, you have a lot more opportunity to really educate yourself through reading books and through podcasts. And going to meetup groups to learn what it takes to ask actively, evaluate deals, find them and hire people to update them and improve the values and put a renter in or you can start learning the skills yourself. You know, my husband and I when we started out, he did a lot of the maintenance and I painted every unit. And I called flooring contractors and you know, designed kitchens and help paint cabinets. I mean, we did everything actively because we started out, we had liquidated all of our, you know assets and started out with quite a bit of debt to start a business and we're running that. So we really didn't have a lot of money. So we invest at the time. So there are many ways to get started. But I'd say definitely align yourself with other people that already know what they're doing, attend some meetup groups, listen to podcasts. And then just decide whether you want to be active or passive for your first one or two until you kind of learn what you like, what your personality works well with and kind of what works within your family dynamic. James: Got it. So who convinced who between you and your husband? Did he convince you to, hey let's go and do, spend time and rehab this real estate or did you convince him or how did you? I'm trying to understand how did the discussion happen? Because a lot of people are struggling, I mean could be struggling, right? How do I convince my spouse especially from a woman to the husband side? Usually, the husband can convince the wife, right? But you are the one who's active right now real estate, how did that work out? Anna: Yes. So it's one of those things when we talk about the personality of the individual. When you're married, there are two people involved in your decisions. And my husband and I, from the beginning, have always looked at our finances and our lives as a partnership. But we kind of has our roles in reverse. I mean, he's a doctor, he's a chiropractor, he went to school for a long time. He's very smart. But he's very hands-on and a people person, he doesn't like the finances, he's not financially minded. He's not the kind that wants to be an entrepreneur and grow a big business, like he's content, just having a small practice, and letting me handle all of the finances. So because I had a background in finance and understanding investments, I pretty much have always handled our investments. And when we decided for him to start the business, I kind of took over the operations and learned how to, you know, run a chiropractic business and set up insurance and all that kind of stuff while he was the doctor and saw the patients. And so when it came to real estate, I said, listen, we're starting out with a lot of debt after paying off all of the school that it's just not financially wise for us to do anything other than buying something so we have tenants helping to pay the rent. So it was easy initially to get Vincent to buy his practice and our building, just to be financially wise and not going into more debt. But growing that beyond that was definitely me as the driver, he was busy with this practice. He did not like to do maintenance, but he learned to do it and liked the fact that once we did rehab units, they were worth a lot more and we had a lot more cash and could keep buying them. But I've been told multiple times, slow down, pull off the brakes, we have enough units, why do you want to keep growing? And I am like because I'm passionate about it. And I'm passionate about the wealth that it can create. So I've been kind of the driver. And he's been very supportive and very hands-on for the 70 units that we self manage in our area. But definitely likes that I'm now buying much larger assets where I'm asset managing and he's not involved day to day in the management and maintenance of the properties. James: He must be very happy now. Anna: Very happy, yes. James: Yes, we started with 45 units. And my wife used to be sitting there whenever we were missing our property manager in the beginning, I mean, she was sitting there doing things and I didn't do maintenance. But, I used to be with her and trying to buy this and buy that and make sure you know the contractors are lined up. And it's a lot of work, but it involves teamwork. And yes, we are two different people, we have to learn how to work with each other. Anna: For sure. James: That's good. And so you started with 70 units, with the chiropractic real estate, right? I mean, is it like a commercial center? Anna: It is. It's a commercial mixed-use building. So there's a commercial space that his business lease's from my business. And it had three tenants, three, you know, residential renters and four garages to that property. James: Got it. So you got some kind of tax benefit, I guess because the [inaudible11:44] is leasing from the owner itself, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. James: So get some write off there, good. And how did you, I mean, so after that and then what was the next acquisition that you did? Anna: So James, as many people were affected by the 2008-2009 economic crash. Imagine working for AIG at the time and AIG, you know, coming in and having one of the largest insurance liabilities of any other provider in the country between mortgage insurance and credit default swaps. And I worked for them. So I had already, I had been working for them for a year on a work from home basis. And we thought we were going to be laid off, my stock went from 1-o-1 a share to 43 cents a share. My retirement funds were almost just destroyed. They were destroyed. I lost about two thirds within a week. And I decided, oh man, I'm going to lose my job. My husband has a brand new business with hundreds of thousands of dollars in startup debt and I'm the sole income. So what are we going to do? And the only thing I could think to do right away was to borrow from my 401k, about $50,000 that I had left that I could borrow and buy another four-unit because I thought at least if I buy another 4 unit, I'll have another, you know, $1200 to $1500 dollars a month of cash coming in. And that's in the asset, that is solid and stable that I won't lose any more in the stock market, no matter what happens. So that was my next acquisition. Again, it wasn't really thinking about oh, this isn't a phenomenal investment. It was, what can we do to survive? And I know that cash flow is a good thing. And that residential real estate will not go down in value significantly compared to the stock market. James: Got it. So after that four-unit, what did you buy the next one? Anna: Another four units. James: Okay, and when did you start with the 70 units where you self manage? Anna: Okay, so what we did, we self-managed, again, initially just out of necessity, not having a lot of extra cash, thinking our finances were not super stable because I was the sole breadwinner at that point. My husband's income was nice, you know in six figures gross, but it was covering expenses. And so we just we're continuing to find ways that we could cash flow and make the most cash and be willing to put in the time to do it ourselves and learn at the time. And so we kept buying a couple of single-family homes that we bought as foreclosures, renovated them and instead of selling them as a flip, we did a cash-out refi, we kept them as rentals, we took the proceeds to buy another and another. And then we did the same thing with small four-unit apartment buildings. So four-unit apartment buildings were kind of my niche and the sweet spot for several years chains. Because there were in a smaller area, I'd say maybe a tertiary market right outside of Hershey. And there's not a lot of apartment complex supply, no big complexes, but there's a lot of demand for housing. And so most of the rental real estate here were four-unit apartment buildings that had been built that way or converted, you know, couple decades ago. And there weren't a lot of big buyers buying those four-unit building. So they'd sit for a while. So I kind of I saw a niche where I could buy properties without having a lot of competition. And I could basically treat them like a larger commercial asset, but on a, you know, on a four-unit scale instead of a five or six-unit scale. And so I kind of honed my skill in updating those units, managing those units, raising the values, cashing out repeating. And then decided, okay, now it's time, once I built up, you know, a strong six-figure passive, you know, net rental real estate portfolio, then I decided, now I can retire and I can scale and start going after much larger assets. And so that's what I did. James: Okay, got it. So when was the first time that you acquired a much larger than four-unit property? Which year was that? Anna: Okay, so in 2018, I had basically created a five-year plan James in 2013, that by 2018, I wanted a $5 million portfolio, you know, about $150,000, at least in passive income, and then I would retire and start going for a bigger one. So I'm my goal in four years in 2017. And then just started kind of working my way into, you know, saving six months of salary and expenses for all my buildings and starting to look for larger deals. So I found the first larger deal for me, it was a 73 unit apartment building, right outside of Hershey, Pennsylvania, that I found off the market and I [inaudible16:20] on that with two other owners. That was a six and a half million dollar purchase 73 unit. And we closed on that in 2018. James: Got it. So how did you manage your time? I mean, your husband is working, and you are doing this fourplex, fourplex, fourplex and your four kids. And you give some tips for people who are in a similar situation and how can they manage and be as successful as you are? Anna: You know, I think really the key to my success has just been resilience and grit and determination. I worked truly, most people say oh, rental real estates passive. But I like to say and I totally believe James, that passive income is built on the blood, sweat and tears of active income. And it takes years of active, sometimes to build up the financial wherewithal that you can truly become totally passive. So between my husband's business and my work, and my rental real estate, I truly worked 70 to 80 hours a week over the last 10 years, in order to be able to get to where I am. My four children are all involved in sports, pretty competitive sports. So we have sports every morning, we have sports after school every day. And most days, it's seven days a week, you know, multiple tournaments on a Saturday and on a Sunday. So every waking moment when the kids went to school before I started work, I did real estate. My lunch breaks, I did real estate. My vacation days, five out of six weeks a year, I did real estate, you know, evenings between when the kids got home and I worked, it was real estate. And after nine when the kids were in bed, I often stayed up till midnight to get things done. So it was very time-consuming. But I'm very, very grateful that I stuck with it and did it. And it was just a matter of utilizing every day, I didn't watch TV, we didn't have cable, I didn't go do a lot of recreational things, I really, you know, not nose to the grindstone just focused on building the portfolio so that I could retire and spend more time with my kids. James: Yes, it's really hard work, I can really appreciate what you've gone through. Because I was working and my wife was like running around in the beginning. I mean, I only stopped working after we had like, 340 units. Now we have like, 1300, it's a lot of work, right. So based on what you're saying, it can be done. It's just like not, please don't give excuses, right? Anna: Exactly. I'm here to tell you, you know, if I can do it, working full time, running my husband's business, four kids and doing it, you know, anybody can do it if you just have grit and determination. So you make the time for what's important to you. And I knew that it was important to me to be able to work myself out of my job. And especially with AIG, you know, a couple of years ago, they said, we really are going to sell our unit, and we need to all be prepared to figure something else out in terms of career. So that kind of drove me to have executed my plan in a certain period of time. And now you know, that I'm retired, I'm still very, very busy. But I have the freedom to control my time, you know, to do what I enjoy and go after larger deals where I'm not having to be quite so involved in the day to day. James: Yes Can you define what is grit and determination in your mind? Anna: Sure, so grit is the ability to stick with something, no matter what comes, no matter what obstacles without basically, you know, melting into a wallflower. And just keep ongoing. And, you know, there's been a lot of studies done on what makes people successful. And you know, some kids were tracked from high school, through college, through their professional lives and they were really surprised that the top students like the valedictorian, the [inaudible20:04] rarely ended up actually being the most successful people in their professional lives. It was usually the people that went through a lot of hardships, and just kept going and push through and got creative and figured a way through and around every obstacle and became stronger and more confident, and determined. And those are the people that ended up the most successful. So I just I think it's an extra drive and extra determination and a willingness to keep pushing through no matter what and to not give up on your goals. James: Yes, so look, I mean, I always tell my listeners and whoever talked to me that it's always, you know, whether you want to be successful, or whether you like to be successful, whether you required to be successful so, I mean, if you have been this successful, you must have that, I really need, I really required to be successful. I mean, is that true statement that you came to that way? Anna: I think so. I grew up with very, in very humble means. And I always knew that I wanted to create a different type of lifestyle and a different financial future for my kids and I was just determined to do it. So I've always been driven, I've always taken on challenges. You know, my first job at Bank of America, I won the number one ranked Financial Relationship Manager in Texas and Employee of the Year awards at multiple jobs, my first couple of years. Because I've always had, that I'm going to be the best, I'm going to succeed, I'm going to achieve and do whatever it takes attitude. So I think part of that was ingrained in me from a young age. James: Yes, I think it's important, I mean, just the personality itself and the drive to be successful and the requirement; I mean, because your husband and your AIG was going downhill and you must be successful otherwise, your family, it may not be in a good place, in terms of financial. So that's really good. So describe to me, what was your toughest day in a one day when you have like four kids and all going to all these classes and schools and all that? Have any time where you think that, oh, my God, this is just too much for me as a mom and as a real estate sponsor? And can you describe that feeling and experience? Anna: Yes, I just actually, you know, Facebook is kind of a mixed bag of whether you like it, or whether you don't. But I like the Facebook memories that kind of pop up and remind you of something. And I had something pop up this last week, about a three day in the life of a real estate investor that works full time and has four kids. And I looked back and thought, well, I don't know how I survived it. But back in February of 2018, I believe it was, I had a call that there was mould in the basement and that they were smelling mould. So they opened it up and there was a lot, well, you know, I'm thinking it's probably like a dripping water heater or something we walked in and there was literally like six inches of goopy mould hanging from every rafter of every space in the basement of a three-unit apartment building with the ground floor, a dirt floor. And when we opened it up, I mean, it was just really bad. And what had happened was a hot water heater, pressure relief valve had failed in the basement, nobody seemed to notice nobody called us. The person in hindsight said, you know, I thought my hot water pressure was kind of low and not as hot. And I should have called you well, within about a six week period, six to eight weeks, somewhere in there, our entire three in an apartment building was just covered in mould. And inside all the units, I had to meet the tenants, it was snowing and really bad weather. And I had to call, you know, restoration companies and re-home all my tenants and get all of this stuff out of the property. Right after that, we had another property where a roof blew off in another big storm. And we're handling the kids and multiple other small things were going wrong, we had a couple of frozen pipes because it was a winter that the ground was just frozen for so many days. So we're dealing with frozen pipes, re-homing tenants, working full time, insurance, the tenants all wanted to sue me because there was mould and their kids were sick and going to the hospital. And my kids were just young and very needy. And it was like a two or three week period where I thought I'm done, I can't do this anymore. It's not worth it. It's too hard. And I kind of had a little pity party for a few weeks and said, okay, I need to take a break. I'm not buying anything else. And I took about a three-month break where I didn't buy anything else. And I just kind of took care of those issues. And then, you know, said I need some breather time, we went to the beach. And after I got back from the beach, I'm like, okay, I'm refreshed. It's behind us now that I've handled that period can do anything and just kept going. James: It's crazy the amount of pressure and tense moment that you have during that kind of things with family and issues with the deal. So I want to ask one last question before we go into the details of some of the deals that you have done here. So why do you do what you do? I mean, you don't have to do this right now. Right? Anna: So a couple of things, James, I'm really passionate about real estate, I'm really passionate about wealth building. And there is nothing like real estate to build wealth. You know, I started out teaching clients about mutual funds and stocks and bonds and how they can make you know, eight to 10% returns on their money if you time everything right. And realize that it takes money to be invested in the stock market. It's volatile and it's risky. And really, people can go from nothing to multi-millionaire in a couple of years of investing in real estate if they do it the right way. And so I've just seen the real power in that. You know we went from literally negative $750,000 net worth when we started my husband's business to a several million dollar net worth and just a few years of really aggressively buying rental real estate. And so it changes lives. And I want people to know, especially women, that that you can change your financial family trajectory, not just for today, but for future generations. And also we're providing really good housing to people. So you know, I grew up in government housing, my mom was a single mom, she was a property manager for a government housing apartment complex. And I know what it's like to grow up in an apartment and we didn't have the best amenities. You know, all my friends were wealthy, and I lived in a little apartment complex. And I've worked with inner-city kids who live literally in shacks with dirt floors in the middle of Houston, Texas. And to be able to empower people and say, your life can be different. And I can show you the financial tools to take better steps and to know better so that you can create generational wealth for yourself. And it just empowers me, it drives me to keep doing it, not just for my own wealth accumulation, but to help other people to learn that they can do the same. James: Yes, that's very interesting. I mean, what you say this, anybody can do this, right? And I know a lot of people are listening to you, there will be some people who think, yes, I can do it too. Then there's another group of people, they're going to give reasons, oh, Anna has this, Anna has that, that's why she's successful. So if you are the one who's giving reasons, I know you want to stop that, because indefinitely, you can make money in real estate, especially millions of dollars, if you really work hard. And if you really, really want it, a lot of them just do not want to do the work. They really don't want the success, they just want to continue with their life and just go ahead and do whatever they've been doing and let the life takes wherever it takes them. Anna: Yes and I think part of that James, for so many years, you see these teams, these shows reality TV, and people convince you that it's easy money that you can do it, that you can be successful. There's coaching programs and gurus that you know, charging five, ten, twenty thousand dollars to sign up and learn how to do real estate. And they promise you that if you follow these three steps, you're going to be independently wealthy in a year or two. And I think when reality hits people, and they start investing, and they start to see how hard it actually can be on a day to day basis until you build up that experience and that wealth, they just give up and they feel like failures because they've been sold an unrealistic expectation of getting rich quick in real estate, when it's really the long game. You know, you're playing a long game, it takes sometimes longer than it should you know, some people get lucky or find the right network and connections and very quickly can build wealth. But for most people, it's slow and methodical growth. And it's just people need to realize that it's not easy, but it's not that complicated if they just stick with it. James: Yes. And they are people who did one real estate and failed badly. And they gave up on real estate. So there other people that you know, yes, one time fail doesn't mean anything we could, we would have failed many times, I guess. Right, so. Anna: Sure. I lost money on my first flip. And I was convinced I'd never do another one. And yes, I changed my mind quickly. And I've done a few but rental real estate is really where the wealth build up comes. James: Yes, yes, in my single-family days, I do like 11 rentals, but I was also doing two flips. And I regret doing flips, because I made like, 40,000 on one flip and I buy a loss and $1,000 on another flip. And that thousand dollars feel very painful. Anna: Yes James: Because you shouldn't be losing money in real estate, but it really taught me a lot of things on how I didn't do it right in terms of the flip. But just because somebody did one and they fail, doesn't mean the whole real estate is a scam. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: Definitely make millions of dollars in real estate, especially if you're living in the US. Anna: Yes, yes. James: It's a country where it allows anybody to grow, there is no limit is just you. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: So no reasons, right? So if you give reasons, that's you so that's the only thing. So let's go to some of the deals that you have been done. And you so you are buying fourplex, fourplex, fourplex. And you started [inaudible30:21] on the 70 units and you self manage and you go into the syndication, why are you going into syndication now? Anna: So, I think some of it comes back to the time and the money, that spectrum of do I have more time or do I have more money? When I got started, I didn't have money and I could have said I didn't have time, but I made time. So it was a heavy, heavy time investment. As I built wealth and as I built more cash flow, it just made more sense for me to be able to scale larger with other partners and to be able to be an asset manager, operator, rather than the property manager or the maintenance person. So I've gotten to a point in my life where even though I've retired from my job, I really want my evenings to be free with my children and just to be wife and mom in the evenings and just spend a certain number of hours a day doing real estate. And so I got to a place where I had to say, you know, how can I really scale if I'm still self-managing many, many more units, it's going to take me a lot longer of full time effort, even though I don't have a job. And I wasn't really willing to sacrifice any more years with my children working more than 40 hours a week. And so I wanted to control my time and continue to scale. So I figured I needed to start working with other people, utilizing other people's time and other people's money. And the larger multifamily allows you to do that because you can afford full-time property management, full-time maintenance staff and really become more of an asset manager and business plan executer than you are an individual who self-managing your own properties. James: Yes, business plan executer, that's the operator definition, I would say. Anna: Yes. James: How do you define operator slash active asset manager in your mind? Anna: Sure. So an operator is basically the person responsible for operating that asset soup to nuts and executing your business plan. So it's generally, you're just general partners. And there will be either all the general partners will be involved in the asset management or overseeing the business plan and making sure that your plan for that particular property is being executed the right way. So for example, if we're buying a value add property, like the 73 unit that we did and the others that I go after, it's a property that is usually poorly managed, its expenses are not being managed well, the rents are below market, and perhaps the units need to be updated in order to maximize the rents so that you can then increase the value of that property. So as an asset manager and operator, I'm working with our property management company or a property manager and with our contractors to make sure that you know, when units come available, we turn those units quickly, we update them on time and on budget, we raise the rents, we get the new tenants in there. So that we can execute our plan to raise the values before we sell or refi. And we work with the property managers to make sure that they're cutting the expenses in the way that we planned, that they're monitoring the expenses, monitoring the rents, making sure rents are being collected, and you're just basically overseeing soup to nuts, all of the things that are supposed to happen to make your asset more valuable. James: Got it, do you think there's a certain advantage of being a local asset manager? Anna: I would say yes, in that really bad, unforeseen, unexpected things happen, like mould damage, or like when blowing roofs off or a hurricane, you can be at that asset very, very quickly. And you can also stop in and visit with your property manager, your property management company on a monthly basis, bimonthly basis and just say, hey, let's walk the ground, show me what you're doing. And there's just never anything as valuable as actually being on the ground and seeing it. However, in today's world, where we have the technology, we have zoom, we have our phones, where we can take pictures, and we can walk around, it's pretty easy to do things virtually as well. So while the operator in me that's always had, you know, my boots on the ground, and always been able to see kind of likes the control of being able to be at a property within an hour. It's not necessary, if you trust your team and have a good team that's boots on the ground, and can just go to your asset maybe once or twice a year. So I haven't really done it from afar. I'm asset managing my first property that we have under contract right now, two properties in Atlanta. And so I'll be sharing asset management responsibilities there. And that'll give me a little better feel for how much easier or harder it is to do from afar. James Got it. Got it. So let's come back to value add. So all the deals that you're buying a presume are value add, right? Anna: Yes. James: I mean, you're adding some things to the operation, either the income or the expense, right? So what do you think is the most valuable value add in your mind? Anna: So I really like Class A to B areas and an older building because your area you can't change, a lot of syndicators go after class C area, workforce housing and older buildings. And so you're struggling not only to bring the asset up to today's standards but also with a tenant pool who may suffer more heavily if we head into a recession or they may be more susceptible to losing jobs and not being able to pay rent. Where when you're in a nicer area where there's really good school districts and people want to live, there's a lot of good employers and a lot of good shopping and things around, you're always going to have people that want to move into that area because it offers the best lifestyle for those people. And so if you can find an older asset, you know, you're not struggling with the area to keep your units filled. It's just a matter of now offering an asset that people want to live in while they are in that area. So I'm really a value add investor, not doing like full major repositions, taking units in a C class area, that's 40% bacon and trying to fill them up. I like stable assets in a stable area that just needs some updating and operational efficiency in order to bring them up to today's standards. James: Good, that's very interesting. I never heard that from anyone else. Because the strategy is for you to look for the good area, but look for older buildings and try to improve from those older buildings, I guess. Anna: Yes. James: Okay. Interesting. But what about the like interior rehabs and do you do any like rehabs on the inside? And do you think is there any specific rehab that you think is more valuable than others? Anna: Sure, you know, it's really market-driven James's I know that you know, but for your listeners, every market demand something different. So where some parts of the country in order to get you to $1100 a month rent might demand granite countertops, and they might want really nice luxury vinyl plank flooring, other areas like tile, and they don't like granite, they like maybe stone countertops, and other areas to get that much, you might be competing with a $3,000 a month luxury apartment that would have granite and vinyl plank and maybe 1000 would get you carpet and a nice floor-laminate. So you've really got to look at what does your particular market demand and not just assume that every rehab has to be a cookie-cutter that looks the same. So what I do is I look at what is the competing market? What is the complex is offering to get that top rent that they're getting today? And I kind of secret shop those complexes or go on their website and see what those units look like. So for the 73 unit, for example, our property was a 1985 vintage when we bought it in 2018. So it was a little bit older, had a lot of original oak cabinets, plain commercial grade carpet, old looking vinyl. And basically we went in and we just changed up the flooring to vinyl plank flooring in the main living areas with carpet in the bedrooms. And the reason we did carpet in the bedrooms is because it's really cold in the northeast. And so a lot of people don't like solid flooring in their bedrooms. So we kind of save a little bit of money on doing carpet in the bedrooms and vinyl plank elsewhere. And we replace some countertops and updated old cream-coloured appliances to stainless steel, or very nice white depending on the unit. And then we painted the apartments, a soft, grayish color kind of more on the gray side. But the flooring has kind of had some greys and browns that go well with everything. And really for just a couple thousand dollars in new flooring and paint and some countertops and appliances, we were able to raise the rents $200 a unit. So it was a significant increase in rents because when we bought the property, not only were the units kind of dated, but the owners had not raised rents on several other tenants for several years. And so the property right next door to ours was asking 175 to 225 more a unit with the exact same floor plans as we had. So it was a great property because we didn't have to do a whole lot in order to bump those rents and achieve that big increase in value. James: Got it. So I want to go a bit more detail on how did you choose your rehab plan because you said you did countertops, you did stainless steel and a few other things there. But it's for example, how did you choose? Why did you want to install stainless steel appliances? Can you give some education on how did you go to that process, say I want to do stainless than black appliances? Anna: Well, and again, this is we've kind of left appliances, we've kind of played with it a little bit because we had so much room to bump the rents. And we looked at what is next door offering? They're the biggest competitor. So next door had certain units where they offered a premium package with stainless steel appliances. But the standard package didn't, it had white appliances. So we said for the first couple that comes available, let's do the vinyl plank, let's paint them. And if there's a cream color, for example, one unit had a cream color stove and a white refrigerator and cream color, you know stove and we said let's keep the brand new white refrigerator. And let's just put in a white dishwasher, a white stove and see if we can get the rent that we want without going stainless. So we did that on a few. And we had a huge waiting list of people that wanted those apartments, they couldn't care less about the stainless steel and so we didn't do it. So you know initially we thought we were going to go all stainless but people, we've been achieving the rent bumps we want without having to do stainless. And so we haven't done it at this point. James: Got it. Yeah, that's how you and I think that's a good strategy to look at the base on where you didn't want to overspend versus how much rent bump you need, right, because -- Anna: Yes. Sorry, go ahead. James: No, I mean, somebody can use that extra money for something else. Anna: Exactly. And the other thing, you know, because I focused primarily in my general area, I know the market like the back of my hand. So the buildings that we bought the 73 unit and the subsequent 31 unit that we just brought too, they're basically my direct competition. So I know what tenants are looking for, I'm already offering it in my town. And basically within a 30-mile radius, we know this is what the market demands, this is how much room we can get for it. And so while people think, oh, I need to do all these fancy bells and whistles, you really just need to look at what your competition is doing it over, improve it to the level that you're going to get the top rent, but don't over-improve it to the point here that you're spending needless cap backs, that aren't going to get you that much of an incremental rent bump. James: Got it, sounds really awesome man. Let's go back to the slightly more personal side. Is there a proud moment in your real estate career that you are really, really proud of, one moment? Anna: One moment, I think, on my 73 unit, sitting down with my JV partner and his partner that he had partnered with stuff, and really being able to convince him that this was an amazing asset to invest in. And he agreed to fund my first large syndication deal. So I was just really proud that I was able to build up the financial knowledge and build up the confidence and the track record from what I had done on a smaller scale that investors would trust me to take their investment and really manage an asset well for them. James: That's where you broke out from the four units to more than 70 units, which is a big achievement, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. And I think that and the day that I retired, when I was able to retire from a job where I worked with accredited investors to be able to say, you know what, I'm retiring, I've replaced my income, I've more than doubled it, I'm now an accredited investor. And I don't ever have to work for someone else, again, I think is probably one of the best moments of my life. James: Yes, that's really important. Can you name like three or five advice that you want to give for newbies who want to walk along your path? Anna: Sure, I'd say educate yourself as much as you can, you know, listen to these great podcasts and just learn from people that have already done it because you learn the things not to do and you learn that the good habits to do to kind of make yourself an excellent investor. So really commit to your education, podcast, read some books and attend some local investor meetup groups so that you can align yourself with other investors. So one is education. One is networking and alignment. And you'll get some continual growth and continue education just from learning from people that are in your network that are already doing what you want to do. I would say also start really looking at yourself and what your goals really are. So like you said early in the podcast, many people think they want to be a real estate investor. But when they discover how hard it is to do so, they kind of back off and maybe flounder for a while. And all of us can do that if we really don't know why we're doing something. So look at yourself, ask yourself what you really want in life. And why do you think real estate can get you there and then back into how much time and money am I willing to commit to my real estate investing venture. And if you don't have a lot of time, you've got to commit yourself to find money or finding other people's money or working with other people. And if you have a lot of time and not money or I think vice versa, then you need to really be willing to put in that time. And so look at your why; look at your time and your money and start figuring out how best to utilize every moment of time that you have, every moment of cash you have and other people's time and money so that you can start to scale as quickly as possible. James: Awesome, awesome. So Anna, why don't you tell our listeners how to get hold of you? Anna: Sure. So I'm on Facebook as Anna ReiMom Kelley. And I have a Facebook group called Creating Real Estate Wealth that lasts with Anna ReiMom, where we talk about real estate and really creating wealth and kind of the good, bad and the ugly of all the different asset classes. And you can email me at info@reimom.com. James: Well, Anna, thanks for coming into the show and providing tons of value. Anna, you gave a lot of very good perspective from how you juggle your role between being a mom and being a wife and trying to grow the business and I think our listeners would absolutely get tons of value out of this. And as I say there's no reason not to be successful in anything that you do and real estate is just a tool. You can be successful in anything but you can be successful if you really put your heart into it. If you really, really want it you will be successful. I mean, if you give reasons, there are tons of reasons you can give not to do something. Anna: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, James. It's been my pleasure. James: Thank you, Anna, bye. Anna: Bye.

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