Small Business Snippets

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guests are Bianca Miller-Cole and Dr. Byron Cole, who are both entrepreneurs and authors. We'll be discussing how to find a mentor and believing in yourself as an entrepreneur. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on boosting your business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out video clips of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel!

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guest is George North, pro rugby player and co-founder of cafe, Baffle Haus, based in Monmouthshire. We'll be discussing sporting mentality and how it can have a positive effect on business success. This podcast is brought to you by Smart Energy GB. For further information on getting a smart meter installed, visit smartenergygb.org You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on boosting your business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out video clips of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel!

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guest is Greg Bateman, former Rugby Union Player and founder of craft beer brand, People's Captain. We discuss how to collaborate with other businesses and how to be successful at a trade show. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on trade shows. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out video clips of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel!

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guests are Megan Rossi (aka The Gut Health Doctor) and Jon Walsh, founders of granola brand, Bio&Me. We discuss how to win over buyers and create memorable social media content. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on marketing. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out video clips of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel!

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guest is Grace Beverley, founder of TALA and Shreddy. We discuss productivity and the challenges of raising funding. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on productivity. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out video clips of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel!

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guest is Ollie Ollerton, star of SAS: Who Dares Wins and founder of BreakPoint. We discuss goal setting as well as diversity and inclusion in business. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on vision and purpose in business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out video clips of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel!

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guest is Thomas Hal Robson-Kanu, professional footballer and founder of The Turmeric Co. We discuss the challenges of starting a raw liquid food business and taking it to international markets. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on starting a business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel!

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today we have a special episode, brought to you by Microsoft. Guests Nico Charritton, senior product marketing manager at Microsoft and Tiffany St James, founder of Curate 42 and Transmute consultancies, discuss hybrid working and the tech tools that can make it happen. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on starting a food-based business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel!

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guests are Myleene Klass and Jamie Barber, founders of My Supper Hero. We discuss finding ethical suppliers, the challenges in setting up a subscription service and My Supper Hero tasting evenings. Sustainable Restaurant Association: https://thesra.org/ Sustainable suppliers: https://www.foodmadegood.org/suppliers/  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on starting a food-based business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel!  

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guest is Candice Brown, business owner, chef and winner of The Great British Bake Off in 2016. We discuss running a business with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and how to get involved in causes you care about. This podcast was brought to you in association with Xero. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on workplace wellbeing. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel!

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guest is Sally Gunnell, entrepreneur, motivational speaker and former professional athlete. We discuss moving from sport into business and how older entrepreneurs can look after their wellbeing. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on workplace wellbeing. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Sally Gunnell podcast transcript Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Sally Gunnell – entrepreneur, motivational speaker and former professional athlete. Born in Essex, Sally actually started out as a pentathlete and long jumper at her local ladies' athletics club. Over time her talent for hurdle events became apparent, winning her gold medals and championship titles across the world. In fact, she's the only woman to hold World, Olympic, European and Commonwealth Gold medals all at once. After retiring in 1997, Sally became part of the BBC Sport team and was a regular on athletics broadcasts in the early 2000s. Since then she's appeared on breakfast television shows as well as A Question of Sport and Total Wipeout. These days she runs Sally Gunnell Corporate Wellbeing to encourage wellbeing in the workplace. She also runs Optimise Your Age, giving health and wellness tips to the over 50s, alongside her husband Jon. We'll be talking about moving from sport into business and how older entrepreneurs can take care of their wellbeing. Anna: Hi there, Sally, how you doing? Sally: I'm very well, thank you. Yes! Anna: Great! The first point I want to talk about is you moving from sport into business. So how did you come to that decision? What kind of challenges did you have going from sport into business? Sally: Yeah, I mean it's always a difficult one when you retire and I guess it's difficult when you're only 27 years old. You're young and you've had one career and it's probably the career that you've had all your life, and then you think, "What do I do next?" So I guess I sort of did it in a way that I would have done with my athletic career. I had to know what I wanted to achieve out there. I had to have aspirations for new things, I had to learn new things. So I planned it, almost. But yeah, I mean, I look back now and I think it was a bit of a gamble. You're not quite sure where you were going with it. But actually, it made me realise just how much I'd learned from my athletics days and my achievements, and how much of that it helped me to that next stage of my career, but be able to pass that on for others. And I think that that's what came out of it. And that's what helped to make it as smooth as possible. For a lot of athletes, there seems to be a progression from sport into business. What kind of things did you take from the track into business? Sally: I think so much of it is about, yes, you've got to work hard, but you've got to work smart. A lot of it is about the sort of things that seem so insignificant, almost, for businesses or whatever, but it's about being the best version of yourself. What you eat, your sleep, how you exercise, it's all about your own performance, and whether that's performance in the workplace or performance with yourself at home, and how that can give you the confidence ,give you the ability, and all those sorts of things. They were sort of like the real area, and I guess a lot of it was about self-belief as well. That was probably the turning point for me, because I probably wasn't the most confident of people when it came to athletics and performing at that high level, but I overcame that. And I think some of the lessons that I learned and who I chatted to, and how I work that into myself, which made the difference becoming a high performance and to be able to give people the confidence to be able to go out and achieve what they can all achieve. That's really where it came from. I think it really helped that I achieved at that high level. So, you went through so many ups and downs, and I learned so much about myself, and I think that really helped to be able to share and explain that story to people. It surprises me that you said that you're not confident because you strike me as somebody who is very confident. How did you develop that going into the business world? Sally: A lot of it is about mindset, it's about what you believe. I think it's very easy. I think as a nation we are, especially women, we're very quick to put ourselves down and think that everybody else looks good, or "I'm not good enough." That's very much how I was, like probably lots of other people, but I'm working with sports psychologists and understanding how the mind works. Confidence comes from within. You've got to find confidence, you've got to shut the demons up and override it. A lot of that becomes part of visualisation. It's part of mentally preparing yourself, work that you do day in, day out to be a better version of yourself. It doesn't just click overnight. I think it was that the power of accepting that we do lead stressful lives and running at that top level was stressful, but it sometimes can be a good thing and to use it as a motivation as well. Just so many key areas that correspond and I think the synergy between performing within the workplace and being the best person you can be is so similar to that that sports field of achieving when all that often seems like everything we do – so many odds against you. Oh, 100 per cent. I can imagine there would be some kind of challenge between performing individual events on the track, and then having to work as a team on business all of a sudden. How did you cope with that? Sally: Yeah. Even though I was very much an individual on the track, it seemed like it, it was very different to a football field or whatever else or my relay or being captain of the women's team. Actually, there was an amazing team of people behind me: nutritionists, sports psychologists, physiologists, coaches. That was the difference of the four years from coming fifth in the Olympics to winning was building this amazing team around us. Lots of people have different goals within their teams, and that's the same in an organisation. It's about knowing that you need their support, you need their help, you need their skills to get the best out of yourself and the business that you're doing, to achieve what you've set yourself. So, it's no different in that respect. Even though I was the one on the track, there was an amazing team of people that got me to that start line. You always forget that there are so many people behind an athlete. There's also this rush to compare yourself to direct competitors and other entrepreneurs. I understand it was in the Tokyo Olympics where you were doing the hurdles, and you're on your way to the gold, and you got distracted by one of your competitors and it threw you off, and unfortunately it cost you the gold medal. How did you feel in that moment? And what kind of lessons did you learn from that? Sally: Yeah, I mean, I think I learned enormously. I was obviously massively disappointed, because I could have won that. And I think that's when it made me realise that I didn't win because I was worrying about things that are out of my control. I didn't have that sort of real confidence in my own ability. I guess that the whole mental side of it only really came on a year before those Olympic Games the following year. So, that was a World Championships in Tokyo, and literally 12 months later, I'd spent 12 months addressing that doubt. And boy! I always say that we're all born with that inner voice and it's always a voice that sort of says. "She looks good over there in that lane" and "She's won the European Championships." That's how I did and of course, you've got to have massive respect for your competitors. That's the same in the corporate world. Yeah, you can learn certain things, but I can't change those situations. So, why spend that energy and that worry and trying to change something that you can't? You can only control the controllables, so it was about blocking out all those sorts of things. That is when it comes back to knowing what you're trying to achieve out there and having clarity in your thoughts so that when you're on your path, and you're not going to get distracted by over here, and  what you're going to stick to and what that end result is. Once you have that in your mind then those other distractions are able to be blocked out during those times. So, yeah, it was about spending time doing that. It doesn't just happen. I would spend five minutes each day just sort of going through what I wanted to execute on that day, what was that perfect race and different scenarios - if things went wrong, if it was raining on the day or it's a difficult lane. It's just familiar in the mind, really, and I think sometimes in different organisations or within sport, you think it sounds like a negative, but I think you have to have every option open, but you know what it is that it's going to actually to take to achieve that higher level. I think that's part of goal setting as well. It's knowing what you want, but with flexibility. In this case, it is a literal 'sticking in your own lane' when you're competing. I think that mental health and its importance to performance has become so well recognised. I'm sure throughout your career, and especially now looking back. It's the same case in business as well as you're very well aware through helping companies with their employee wellbeing programmes. Tell us a bit more about what makes a good employee wellbeing programme. Sally: I think a wellbeing programme has to be one which is very much put together for the employees' needs. It's not just a one-size-fits-all, it has to really recognise it in what the issues are within the company, whether that's retention or whether that's making people present in what they're doing. Maybe there's some health issues or whatever it may be. So, I think it's really about finding out what they do, that scoping work at the beginning, and really finding out what the issue is and what people actually want. Then the programmes that work are the ones that are led from the top down. It's no point in just doing a wellbeing programme for one part of the company. They have to be able to see the top managers being part of it because they need it just as much as everybody else and to be part of that programme. Then it needs to be consistent. It's not good enough if you're just going to do it once a year or a couple of times a year. The programmes that really work are the ones that are consistently being put in and information and help and support is regularly there and people know where to go. They know where to tap into it and to be able to ask for help as well. I think they're the programmes that really work. I think that with all programmes there's so many different issues that people can cover within wellbeing. I know that at the moment, it's very much around mental health and putting First Aiders in, but people have all sorts of different issues around wellbeing. I think it's about addressing lots of different areas, whether that may be financial, whether that may be physical, there are just so many areas and I think it's making it right for that organisation. In your experience of talking to organisations and employees, what areas do you feel are overlooked, generally, in these kinds of programmes? Sally: I think the ones that the programmes that for a lot of companies we come across, they haven't got a programme, they literally may just tick a few boxes, through HR or whatever else. But a lot of people within the organisations don't feel like they're being supported, they don't know where to go, if they have got mental health issues, or whatever it may be. I think with what's happened in the last two years of the pandemic, people working from home or talking about the mental health issues, the confidence, and I think, a lot of organisations people working from home, it's finding ways of being able to reach out to people. It is about building resilience, but when you build resilience, you want to make sure that you've got the pieces in place to be able to help people build that resilience, whether that's work or whether they're in their own life, as well. For a lot of organisations, it's sometimes building that resilience piece is hard - if there isn't a water station nearby, or there's not a park to be able to get out to, or they don't feel as though they can just take a lunch break, all those sorts of things are just so important for people's wellbeing. That's why it has to be led from those top and that information is there and support. Often what I find is that people are just lacking that information – they want to be better, they want to help themselves, they want to be fitter, they want to know what it is, but they've never had that sort of knowledge. It's about giving people the knowledge and the support and how they get out, get that support from those organisations. We're talking online resources – or members of staff that they could speak to – where do they seek this information? Sally: There's all sorts of different outlets, depending on the organisation. We've got online programmes that we do, which are much more around podcasts that we can roll out to different people. But as people are getting back in the organisation, they want to see face-to-face, it's helping and supporting HR to be able to deliver that information, because every organisation has different ways of delivering it. It might be that it's a site that sits on your intranet to information in the toilets. That it's just finding what works for that organisation. A lot of the programmes that we're doing, we have been doing for the last two years, have been obviously very much online, they're podcasts and they're help and support. So, organisations can run them literally worldwide to every single person within that organisation, thousands of people because they have to, they can't just support one group, it has to be able to roll out. So, that's really helped us as an organisation to be able to reach as many people as possible. I guess, by doing that online and putting those programmes in sport, they have workbooks that they work to, and each month, we have a different subject depending on what that organisation may be. That might be around nutrition, sleep, finance, the physical side of things. That is designed around what that organisation needs. Wonderful. This is a tricky one, because of course, you can measure things like turnover and your forecasting figures, but how do you measure the success of an employee wellbeing programme? Sally: Well, that's why we really want to do the scoping beforehand. We send out questionnaires to people so that we can get what people's real issues are. Then at the end of a programme or six months through, we will then send out questionnaires to actually find out whether it's reached the right people, whether it's helped and supported them. We can then send back information to those organisations, because that is the biggest thing we've come up across. But we want to be able to see that change. By doing this, whether that's every six months or at the beginning of a program, and then at the end, we can see how people have engaged in the programme, and whether it's actually helped and supported them. Very, very key. Of course, the boss' wellbeing is as important as the employees', especially as they get older. What kind of tips do you have for older entrepreneurs to take care of their own wellbeing? Sally: Yeah, I think that it's people realising that you can't just keep going at 100 per cent. It's fine if you're in your 20s and 30s, but it does catch up with you. And it's the same for all of us, isn't it? So, I think the thing I've learned is that, yes, you have to work smart, and then how to work smart, then how nutrition and your sleep and the physical side of it can affect your performance. That's about thinking clearly, not having that dip in the afternoon, not being off ill, all those sorts of things. I think the thing I learned from sport, and that I try and pass on to whoever really, in an organisation, whatever age you are, it's those little increments that you think are so insignificant, but actually, they play a major part in being able to work day in, day out. I think with so much of stress and burnout, but stress is part of people's lives, but it's learning how to manage that. I think as we get older, it's about understanding that, actually, you need to get out of the office or get out of, you're at home, and taking that lunch break. If you need to go home and go to your kid's sports day, or whatever, it's all those little things, which seems sometimes so insignificant, are actually things that really play a major part in being able to work. And that's where it has to be led from the top, it's good to go off to the gym at lunchtime or to go for an exercise or walk with somebody, to be able to chat with your colleagues or whatever it may be. It's just allowing people to be able to think that that is the norm. And that's what it's okay to do. Yeah, absolutely. At this time, especially with what's happened over the past couple of years, I mean, it's, it's a prime opportunity to really make those changes, because the way that we work has fundamentally changed. Sally: Totally. I think now an organisation has to look at wellbeing, it's so high on the agenda. I think it's more than ever and it's giving people the confidence to get back into the office. I think that sometimes the younger generation, they're in and they're fine. But as we've all got used to working from home now, it's having that confidence, and that sometimes comes from support from the organisations to be able to do that. That comes under HR and wellbeing at the same time and knowing that you've got a great programme in place with people that understand and an organisation that understands to help you to be able to support you. Anna: Fantastic. Well, that seems like a great place to wrap up. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast, Sally. Sally: Lovely, thank you very much. You can find out more about Sally at sallygunnell.com. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more about workplace wellbeing. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts, on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lowercase) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

Small Business has partnered with the Current Account Switch Service to bring you vital information on switching your business bank account. In this roundtable session, Lawrence Gosling hosts banking experts and small businesses to talk about switching business bank accounts and why entrepreneurs are hesitant about it. The speakers are: Moderator: Lawrence Gosling, Editorial Director, Bonhill Group plc Liz Barclay, Small Business Commissioner Chris Pond, Chair, Financial Inclusion Commission / CASS INED Helen Bierton, Chief Banking Officer, Starling Bank Jo Ainsley, Senior Services Lines Manager, Current Account Switching Service Edwin Rodrigues, Business Manager, Noah's Ark Media Ltd Frederic Jean-Baptiste, CEO, Customs & Freight Ltd Suelin McCullough, Director, JSGD Ltd James Shadimehr, Director, Garage Nation and Events Management  They also discuss what businesses need from their bank and why some entrepreneurs are struggling with the shift to digital.

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guest is Sian Gabbidon, entrepreneur, TV personality and winner of The Apprentice 2018. We discuss her favourite task on the show and social media's depiction of entrepreneurs. This episode was brought to you in partnership with UPS. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on starting your own business.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Sian Gabbidon podcast transcript Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Sian Gabbidon – entrepreneur, TV personality and The Apprentice winner in 2018. With a keen interest in fashion as a teenager, Sian did a fashion design with marketing and production degree at the University of Huddersfield. She went on to create her swimwear brand, Sian Marie, two years before appearing on The Apprentice. But with a global pandemic affecting sun-seeking holidays, Sian quickly had to pivot to loungewear, reporting a loss of £47,000 from the brand. She's since bounced back, partnering with George at ASDA to launch her loungewear range at the beginning of November 2021. We'll be talking about growing your brand on Instagram and handling a business while ill with Covid-19. Anna: Hi, Sian. Sian: Hello, how you doing? Anna: I'm very well, thank you. How are you? Sian: Yeah, not bad. You started out posting your designs on Instagram after you graduated from university. At the time of recording, you've grown that following from almost 120,000 on your personal account, and almost 70,000 on your Sian Marie loungewear account. I'm sure our listeners would love to know – how do you engage with your audience and build your brand on Instagram? Sian: It's a lot more difficult nowadays than it was back when I first set up. Nowadays with Instagram, you have algorithms and all kinds of things going on that can help or not help. But for me, it was quite organic, especially back before The Apprentice on my business page. We just ended up getting quite a lot of stylists, and even celebrities and people following us because we have designs that others didn't really have. So, we just really organically grew that following and got more and more support. Then obviously pivoting into lounge, it's almost like a new audience has came about now as well. When I was first using Instagram, back in the day, when I first set the brand up, it wasn't as monetised as it is now. You weren't really paying to get seen, you were seen automatically. Everyone that follows you will see your posts, whereas nowadays because you have to pay for posts, especially as a business, it's a lot harder to reach the audiences. You just have to spend a bit more money now. Whereas back then it was a free for all and everyone just saw everything that you posted. I imagine stylists were probably looking through Instagram at the time to try and find businesses like yourselves. Sian: Definitely. I think stylists use places like Instagram for new talent. It's perfect for those guys – they don't have to go to a store to find things. They could literally just look online, find some really unique different designs. That's what we were all about, especially with swimwear. It was very much one-off pieces, and pieces that you wouldn't crash at a pool party in, so it was perfect for celebrities. What kind of advice would you give to creative entrepreneurs now to get noticed on Instagram? Sian: I would say now that it still does boil down to that raw talent. If you've got a raw talent and you create amazing designs and use the right hashtags – there's a few tricks of the trade within Instagram that will help you get seen. But I think having that talent – and engaging with the people that you want to see – or sometimes that can work is the kind of tricks of the trade within that you can use to be seen. But I think yes, it's mainly just about having the talent and getting your pictures on there. And pushing it as much as you can and being a consistent person, posting every single day, making the people that follow you almost know when you're about to post so that they can be prepared for it. There are peak times for posting. With Instagram, you should always be posting regular content without posting too much with them without not posting enough. It's a really tricky balance because you want to keep people engaged, but you don't want to annoy them. But I think as a designer, especially when we're creating, if you're creating pieces that are one-offs, get throwing them all on there and have a wall full of your work so that people, when they do find you, can just flick through and see everything. Once you became a bit more established, were getting noticed by the stylists and everything, I believe it was an influencer who wore one of your pieces and you got recognised off the back of that as well. Then the pandemic hit, and of course, people are not going on the sunny holidays. They're stuck at home and you had to pivot to loungewear very, very quickly. Tell us a bit more about how you went about doing that and how long it took. Sian: Yeah, so we were like, 90 per cent swimwear in the UK pre-pandemic, and then the pandemic hit. I think we just launched a range in the March, a full swimwear range. It was an absolute nightmare. People were sending stuff back saying that their holidays were being cancelled. I remember first hearing about coronavirus and having a bit of a, ‘Well, we'll see what happens. It's probably going to be fine'. I think back to May, and then this all kicked off. And I was like, ‘Oh my gosh.' This is destroying for my type of business. We did always plan to expand into new areas, just not as quickly as we had to do with the pandemic. It kind of forced me and us to expand quicker than we wanted to. But it's actually, out of such a terrible time, it's probably been the best thing that we've ever done. Because loungewear for me now – it's just proven how hard swimwear is, because it's seasonal. It's a much smaller demographic graphic in some ways than loungewear. And the way that, as a designer, and as a brand owner, the way that we turned around the product and made everything happen was so much quicker than it normally would be for a fashion brand. But I think I look at that now and pat myself on the back for being able to adapt it and change so quickly and react to what was going on. And yeah, survive it, I guess. One of the key attributes of a business owner is to be nimble and to be able to adapt very quickly. You even had Covid-19 yourself – how did that affect you and the business? Sian: Having Covid was dreadful. Even now, I can't taste or smell. It's so bizarre – it's been months now. And yeah, I can't taste or smell anything. On a personal level, having Covid myself was weird. I was more scared for family and friends, making sure that everybody else will be alright. My mum's literally just found out she's got Covid today. She's an NHS nurse. Covid itself was just such a strange thing to live through and to be a business owner through. Every business on the planet was affected in some way by it. And it's sad that some of them didn't make it. But you know, luckily for me, I could adapt. I was on the ball and I was involved. I think sometimes people think I'm just sat on a beach enjoying life. It's really not like that as a business owner – not for me anyway. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a thing with entrepreneurs, especially on social media, where they're sort of living the highlife and having a good time, but I think there's less of the imagery of, I don't know, sitting with a planning board at three in the morning and that kind of thing. Sian: Social media is amazing. But I think it does depict entrepreneurs and business owners in a certain light that makes everything look glamorous, which is what it 100 per cent is at times. But then there's a lot of the time where it's just hard work. You work long hours, you're full-on, there are a lot of hurdles, a lot of stresses. I think that's why probably a lot of start-ups struggle or they don't make it past certain hurdles, because they're expecting everything to be rosy and it really isn't. Even in my position now, we're doing really well, we're growing and we're going in the right direction, and I'm in a really happy place. But there are still hurdles, there are still issues, there are still stresses every single day, but as a business owner and an entrepreneur, are you ready for that? You're ready to attack that and to keep going. What's the most stressful thing you face as an entrepreneur? How do you tackle it? Sian: One of the things that I struggle with as an entrepreneur, it's a very funny one and I'm sure others would agree, is letting go of things and letting other people do them or manage them. My business, I started myself in my bedroom and I know every single part of the business, even now. And I think it's hard. I am all about my brand so everything I do is about the brand. And I care. And I think sometimes just letting other people manage things and having a team of people who you need around you, but then allowing them to do it for you. I really struggle with it even now, you have to as the business grows, but I like to do everything myself. I can't – you can't do everything yourself. Is that just a case of, ‘Okay, breathe'? Let them do the thing, trust them? Or is there something specific that you do to try and ease that anxiety? Sian: I think to help with that, it's about employing the right people. It's about making sure that they're well-trained and know what they're doing, and that they know you're there if they need help. If they really need to speak to somebody or ask someone. For me, it's making sure you've got the right people in place for the job. And then allowing yourself to be open to questions and giving help if you need to. Great. And another challenge that's coming up that may affect you, is the possible regulation of the Buy Now Pay Later (BNPL) market? Because I understand that you use a BNPL facility on the site. It's still under consultation at the moment, but how do you think that's going to change that side of the business for you as a retailer? Sian: Are they saying they're not going to allow it anymore? Anna: No, it's just that it might be regulated, like other credit facilities – credit cards and so on. So, it's more stringent checks and being more lenient with people who are struggling to make repayments and that kind of thing. But it looks like the retailers might have to be authorised by the Financial Conduct Authority as well. Sian: In terms of Buy Now Pay Later, and we do have it on our site, it does come in handy. The majority of our sales are just bought directly, through PayPal or credit card. So, depending on how that works, it might affect us slightly, but I think anything that's going to make people safer and help avoid them getting themselves into debts or anything like that, then, as a business owner, you've got to make sure people are safe, that's the priority. You started the business on a very low budget. What kind of advice would you have for, say, sole traders or entrepreneurs who want to start a business on a low budget? Sian: Anyone wanting to start a business on a low budget, I would say, don't be put off by that. And it actually was, I think, I would personally say it was great for me because it taught me how to be smart with money and how to reinvest profits. I worked full-time when I first set the business up, didn't take any money out of the business for myself for quite a while I just built the pot. And luckily working allowed me to do that. And me having really early mornings and really late nights to manage your business and a full-time job. But that was my plan. I didn't want to put too much pressure on making money to begin with, it was more about getting the right things in place, having the website, having some cash saved up for any rainy days or anything that I need it for. I would just say, you definitely can do it, you just have to be very smart about planning and money management. I'd like to talk a little bit about The Apprentice and your time on it. So yeah, you got right through to the final. What was the most memorable task for you and why? Sian: The most memorable task for me in The Apprentice was definitely the QVC task, like selling on TV. I remember taking a massive punt and saying, ‘Right, I'm going to pick the most expensive product that we could choose from.' And in my head, I kind of said to myself, ‘If we win, amazing. If we don't win, I'm probably going to get kicked off for this task.' But it was one where I thought, ‘You know what? I'm going to take a risk and I'm going to hope that Lord Sugar appreciates me taking the risk. And luckily, I think we won – I'm pretty sure that we won that task. And everything paid off for me. So yeah, that was my favourite one. Right at the very end, you and Camilla, you seemed to – not as much as other years – but you seem to be in quite a head-to-head with a lot of arguing. Then all of a sudden, once Lord Sugar had made the announcement, it's as if something just fell. And you're not best friends. But you know, you kind of made up again. Tell us what it's like being in that final, that final meeting room scenario. Sian: At the time, we were actually really good friends. And we were very similar age-wise and interests, whatever else. So, it was a really strange situation because it was like we were really buzzing for each other when the fan then you were competing against each other. But we knew that when we were in front of Lord Sugar and was in the final grilling, we kind of knew the situation. And we knew that we'd have to say things about each other's businesses and about each other. And I think we just kind of took it and ran with it. But we knew that off-camera and behind the scenes, we were friends, and we genuinely would have been whoever, whatever the outcome would have been and whoever would have won, we would have been happy. Had that been coming I would have been absolutely pausing for. It was a really strange one. But what obviously for me, I'll never forget the moment that I won. But then being in the final was another thing that I'll never forget either because it was a girl power final. Were you encouraged to ham it up or was that all real? Sian: Everything on the show is real. Everything that you see is real. It's emotional. You've been in there for a long time, we're tired, you've been doing all these tasks. And especially by the final I was a bit like, I'm so competitive as well, that I was like by this stage, ‘If I don't win now, I'm going to be absolutely fuming.' So fine. I was like, ‘I'm knackered, but this is the final hurdle now and I need to win it.' You know, I would have kicked myself if I'd came second. Anna: Well, great. I mean, that seems like a great place to wrap up. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah. And it's been wonderful to have you. Sian: Thank you for having me. It's been great. You can find out more about Sian Marie at sianmarie.com. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more about growing your brand on social media. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lower case) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

Welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today's guest is Keith Abel, founder of Abel & Cole and chairman of Freddie's Flowers. We discuss the how he got the idea for Abel & Cole and what advice he has for entrepreneurs. This episode was brought to you in partnership with UPS. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on starting your own business.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Keith Abel podcast transcript Hello. My name is Tim Adler and I am the editor of SmallBusiness.co.uk. On today's Small Business Snippets podcast, we're talking to Keith Abel, chairman of Freddie's Flowers and founder of Abel & Cole, the organic door-to-door vegetable box delivery business that became a phenomenon in the late 1990s and early 2000s. He's going to be talking about how he began the business, literally as a one-man band, how it grew and the lessons he learned along the way and the advice that he would have for small business owners. Keith, I know that for you this is a long story. Where did the idea for Abel & Cole come from? Keith: So back in the days of Margaret Thatcher and the miners' strike, I was at Leeds University and I went on a trip with a couple of people who you know, to Africa. And we missed our flight back and we had to get another one. So, I had to borrow some money. And that basically was my term's grant cheque. So, I went up to Leeds with no money during the miners' strike. I got a job selling potatoes door-to-door. I had sold fire extinguishers from the age of 16 and I was taught how to be a good door-to-door salesman. So, I went to see this guy who's building up potato rounds, a bit like milk rounds. I said to him, ‘I'm the best salesman you've ever employed'. He went, ‘Right, lad. I know someone who can sell 85 bags of potatoes in a day. How many can you sell?' I said I'll sell 100. He said, ‘You're done. Get 100, I'll give you £50. You get 99, I'll give you nowt. You up for it?' I said, ‘Yep, definitely.' It was 10 o'clock at night, I was out there. I'm very glad that I could sell a hundred bags and I get £50 – £13 rent, 50p a pint and fags were just 50p a packet. For a whole term, I lived on my Saturday job selling potatoes door-to-door. I left Leeds went to law school, passed my exams. I went to bar school. I fell in love, unrequited, concentrating a little bit too much on that and not enough on the exams. Failed my exams. Furious father. Kind of kicked me out and I thought, OK, those days, no minimum wage. I got £3.50 an hour price tagging Christmas cards in the basement of Selfridges. I couldn't face it, so I thought ‘Sod it, no one's doing this in London.' So I got together with my mate, Paul Cole, who was at uni with me. I nicked £2,000 off my brother because he'd been traveling for a year and he had that much left over in traveller's cheques. He was in IT. He was quite wealthy and had traveller's cheques. I forged his signature to cash them. I gave him a share in the business. I bought a ton of potatoes, a batch of plastic bags, a little clipping machine and a van for £300. And I rented the basement at someone's house in Catford. And that day, Paul and I bagged up 150 bags of potatoes and sold them. Of course, by the end of Monday, we hadn't just sold £150 of potatoes at a mark-up of two times. We built up a potato round. So, the next Monday, Paul went to deliver the potatoes to the previous lot, I went and set up round two. By Christmas we had we had four vans on the road, each costing £300, so they were reliable. When we moved to organic, I remember thinking, ‘What should we charge for them?' If no one's asking, why don't we charge it at a price where we know we'd actually make some money? We were never making any money. We were living on £70 a week. So we whacked the prices up a bit. But customers really liked them talked about when we started writing about organic farming, they're Soil Association certified. Soil Association was gathering some momentum. Suddenly, you know, Mr. And Mrs. Middle Class of Wandsworth say, ‘Any chance to some other vegetables? So, I turned around to the organic farmer said, ‘How would you feel about throwing a few vegetables in a box?' I think, actually, he suggested it to me. And I went, ‘It's great idea. How much do we charge for it – £8?' We called it the Essential Organic Veg Box. What stage had the business got to when you thought, ‘If we're going to really grow, we need to bring in external investment'? Keith: We didn't – this was the exceptional thing about this business. I'll explain to you why. We just started with our £2000. I got loans – my sister loaned me some money, my dad loaned me some money, but it was little small loans. What we discovered in about 2003, when the business was turning over about £1.5m, if we put out a leaflet, it was a multi-coloured leaflet. And it said ‘truly fresh organic produce straight from the grower to your table' with an 0800 number underneath it. If we put 1000 of those out through letter boxes in broadly speaking better off areas, we would get three customers. And those three customers would have bought from us three times before we had to pay for the printing or the Royal Mail to distribute it. That was the equivalent of finding a fruit machine that you only had to put the money in after you'd had your winnings. When we discovered that, we decided to experiment small, and we put out 6m leaflets. We trebled in size in six months. Basically, we had negative cash flow – we didn't need cash to grow, it was the opposite. As we grew, the cash just piled up. We could buy a lot of our vans with cash, we bought our warehouse with cash, we were generating vast amounts of cash. As we got big, we were paying the Post Office later, the printers later. All the money was just pouring in. It was a brilliant business. We never took a penny of external investment. We built sales up to 35m and it had been unbelievably hard work. What kind of hours had you been working at the start? Keith: Right at the start, we would get to the market at three o'clock in the morning. We get back to the warehouse at 5:30am. We packed spuds until 8am, then we go out and have a big breakfast. We'd be door knocking and collecting money until 6pm and we get home at 7:30pm. We were doing that for months. I mean, it was really, really exhausting. You know, I was always getting into the warehouse for 6:30am to open up with Paul, it was it was very, very, very long hours and it was very stressful. A lot of the time we didn't know what we were doing. But we were just tenacious. You know, we were hustlers. We just kept going, whatever happened, and we kept going. What do you think the most important quality of an entrepreneur is? Keith: I've discussed this with loads of friends who run successful businesses. We're all in complete agreement: the number one thing is tenacity. If you've got a wall that you've got to get around, some people go to the right and they can't find a way around it to the right. Some people go to the left and they can't find a way around it. In fact, they find that it goes circular, this wall, and they try to climb over it. It's got barbed wire on the top and they can't get through it and a lot of people just go, ‘Okay, that's it. There's a wall, I'm stuck.' But the entrepreneur tries to dig underneath it, and then he realises he can't quite dig underneath it. So he blows it up. And it's that sort of, ‘Well, I don't care, I'm going to find a way to do this.' that I think it's the difference between people who survive, and it is about surviving. And those that don't. There have been lots of times where you just sort of thought, ‘Okay, that's it, we're done.' I've always said no, I've always been prepared to ring up the supplier and say, ‘Can you give me another month?' In fact, one supplier when we were bust, and the Inland Revenue put the house up for sale and we were completely against the wall. I just said, ‘I'm not going to pay you. But I'm going to keep trading and I will pay you back eventually.' Was this pre-equity? Keith: oh yeah, way before that. So, there was a cash flow problem. Keith: Absolutely. That was because we weren't being detailed enough with our accounting. So that's the second tip: know your numbers. Have a good bookkeeper or accountant, giving you month-end figures every month. Otherwise you're flying blind. So, there you are, along comes Mr. Private Equity. Yeah, I can take this all off your hands, and you can walk off into the sunset with your Jacuzzi and your Porsche. Happy days. What happened? Keith: In those days, that was called a leveraged buyout. Very simply, what they do is they come up to you, and they say, ‘Can we buy your house?' And you go, ‘Yeah', and they say, ‘Right, Mr. Bank, will you lend me the money to buy that house?' And they go, ‘Yeah, sure. But if you don't pay the interest back, then we're going to take over the business.' They did a lot of leverage, they put in £20m worth of debt. Obviously, you don't get all the money on day one, you get promise notes for the future. Then they take over running it, and they run it their way, not your way. But surely you were integral to the business. Keith: No, I brought in a team underneath me. So, they were the management buyout team. And they were inexperienced – didn't know how to deal with the investors. And it quite quickly unravelled. Lloyds Bank said, ‘Right, give me the keys, we'll take over the business.' This was in 2008, when they were doing that to a lot of businesses in the financial crisis. And they needed people to run them. I got a phone call one day when I was out skiing. You know, I was turning up once a month to board meetings, thinking they were all buffoons and carrying on with my life. The chap from Lloyds said, ‘Would you meet me for breakfast?' And I said, ‘Look, I don't think I'm going anywhere near that business. But I'll certainly have breakfast with you.' I was expecting him to say, you know, you give me half the money back and then you can have the whole business. I was thinking I'm not going to do that, they run it into the ground. But he just gave me an offer I couldn't refuse. He said, ‘I'll give you 40 per cent of the business for nothing, and I'll reduce the debt', which was at £28m to £10m. It was a no-brainer. So, you go back in. How long did it take you to turn the business around? Keith: 18 months. Best part of my life. Sales had gone back from £35m to £27m. In 18 months, with no investment, we took them from £27m to £45m. How did you do that? Keith: We were pretty brutal. We did a massive cost-cutting exercise. We had a marketing team of about 20 people in it. Or, as far as I was concerned, they were a non-marketing team because sales were going backwards. We just got rid of all of them. It was much easier just everybody went. We got rid of layers of middle management. We printed one leaflet – remember I told you that leaflet worked? – they stopped leafleting so I printed a leaflet. It had one of the corniest straplines I've ever come up with. I'm so proud of it. Awesome campaign. It said ‘Abel & Cole have turned over a new leaf' because our reputation had gone downhill. The boxes were crap. We put all the savings from all these employees into the boxes and made sure they were the best. We spoke to the growers and said, ‘Look, you don't want us to go bust. We need deals. I know you've never charged me less than 50p for cauliflower. I need it for 40p, and I promise you, I'll be buying from you next year. He charged me 55p. We went around and did deals with everyone we could. We put together, I can honestly say, the best organic vegetable box that has ever been delivered. We also did this massive boxing campaign, again paid for six weeks hence. It was due to go and be delivered on a Tuesday, it was our final throw of the dice. If it worked, happy days. If it didn't work, we were going to go bust. But at least if we were going to go bust, I said to everyone, that it would be with a bloody good product that we were proud of. We've given it our best shot and we were taking over a really knackered business. Phones rang off the hook. Customers got a fabulous product. We let that go for about three months, then we did quite a significant price rise, because the customers were happy and we needed to make some money. So, prices went up, sales carried on climbing through the ceiling, we went from losing money to making £4.5m a year in 18 months. When you were there, during your second phase, you employed a young guy called Freddie Garland. Keith: That's right. When I left the business, and was having my time out, temps still running it. He rang me up and said, ‘Keith, you know, my parents were florists and I'd quite like to do what you did with veg boxes but with flowers'. I remember I immediately thought that is a brilliant idea. He said, ‘How do I get started?' And I said, ‘Well, you're going to need a van. Why not have a bit of fun and get a milk float? You're going to need to move back in with your parents because you're going to be broke for a couple of years. You need to buy a tent where you can turn it into a warehouse. I'll lend you some money and we'll give it a go. And if it works, I might invest in it. I'll help you, you know, because that's how I started.' So, dear old Freddie is very hardworking. We worked out he needed about £10,000. I wrote to some lawyers and asked what they would charge for this agreement. They said £10,000 pounds plus VAT. We ended up doing the agreement, with Freddy sending me an email saying, ‘Dear Keith, Thanks for lending me £10,000, I'll try and pay you back.' There was no investment agreement because there wasn't an investment. I was just saying, ‘You're a nice young lad. I think this is a great idea. I bet it will work.' Two months later, he was doing about 75-80 deliveries a day. Again, up at four in the morning, packing the flowers in the sitting room, going out on the milk float, bashing on doors in the evening, getting more customers, bringing a couple of friends in. What was the timeline here? When are we talking? Keith: That was September 2014. We've just had our seventh anniversary. It was between September, October and November. Yeah, Freddie marked down every door he knocked on, what the response was, how many customers he got, how often they wanted to order and when they stopped ordering. Ted and I went and put that into a great big model that we use for our subscription business before and worked out roughly how much money we think we needed to build the business up. The arrangement we came to was that I would put the money in, largely by loan note, Ted would put the time in and Freddie would do all of the work. That was in April of that year, we put the money in – April 2015. And off we went. For the first year, we didn't even have a website. Slowly, we built a website and got going. So, the business is growing and growing and growing and everything's going well. And then Covid hits. If you've got a door to door business… Keith: Yep. We thought, well, you know, what should we do, we're going to go bust or we're going to double down. We'd just started digital marketing. At the beginning of Covid, every other company in the planet just went and stopped marketing. So marketing digitally became very cheap. We thought, ‘Okay, we're currently spending X amount of money per week on our face-to-face team. We don't have to spend money on them. We'll spend all of that money on digital marketing.' In a period of six weeks, the business went from run rate sales of around about 20m to 44m in six weeks. What are run rates? Keith: The weekly sales multiplied by 52. We basically doubled in size in six weeks. What were you trying to do through the social media marketing? Was it brand awareness, was it sales? Keith: No, it was very much customer acquisition. It was, ‘Sign up today and get your first two boxes at half price' or it was, ‘Sign up today and we'll send you a free vase'. Do you think that what social media is good for sign ups? Keith: I think that when you're small and you're hustling, you've got to really focus on methods of acquiring customers where you can measure the payback in the lifetime value, the return on investment. It's only when you're much bigger, and you've got bigger investment (which is where we're at now) that you can start really spending the significant budgets that are needed to build brand awareness. You've said elsewhere that another thing you realise that it's only when you really start paying the social media companies the big money, the algorithm starts getting behind you. Keith: Yeah, that is the case. But if you're clever, if you use the right influencers, if you hustle. If you if you've got a small budget, you've got to hustle a bit. If social media is too expensive, you've got to find other ways of getting your message out there. Okay, so, we've moved now we're moving away from the pandemic. In July, you had a $60m vote of confidence in Freddie's Flowers through this new investment. What do you want to do with that money? Keith: It's interesting, we're really blessed. We've got a fantastic new investor, they're not a PE fund. They're not a fund. They are entrepreneurs, the money's from entrepreneurial families, and they call themselves The Craftory, because they're a factory of crafters, people with specific skills. What they're doing is they're teaching us the skills that we don't have and they're explaining to me where they feel, it's entirely up to us, but where they feel that money should be invested. The strategy really is a few-fold it is to make sure that we've got the best people in the most senior positions where we have weaknesses. We had a capability study. We know we're very capable there and we need more capability there. And the particular area we need it is brand and brand building, so we are looking to recruit some senior people who've done that before, in what's called CPG (consumer packaged goods) and a significant amount of budget over the next few years will be built in the different geographies, is just building brand awareness. The other way we're investing in is geographic expansion. We're in Germany, we're about to open a big warehouse in Germany, in southern Germany, doing on distribution on electric bikes. Then in November, we're going to launch in Los Angeles. I mean, it's interesting, you're saying that one of the things that you're aware of is weaknesses in the team. I think even at a micro-level or small business level, something I've noticed, is that entrepreneurs, when they're looking to recruit, they recruit people looking in their own image. And that seems to be such a mistake – it's exactly what you don't want to do. Keith: There's a great thing called Myers-Briggs, or Belbin is another one. Let me put it simply, I think the easiest way to describe a successful business is like a rugby team. Much more than a football team, because in a rugby team, the prop forward is a totally different shape to the guy on the wing. He's got a totally different script, a different set of skills. If you're a prop forward in your business and you go and recruit another prop forward because you like him and you're both big beer drinkers and that's what you do and you've got the same sense of humour. You're the same type, you're just never going to get anywhere. My blessing at Abel & Cole was recruiting a woman called Ella Hicks. I was in my late 30s. She was in her early 20s. She was a she and I was he. She had all the skills about being detailed, about following things through, about taking notes furiously. I had all the madness of firing out 50 ideas a minute. She would know which ones to capture and which ones we would do. At the same point, she may say, ‘No, I'm not going to do that.' So those are the two big skills that any business needs to have to start off with. Looking back when – you're still in the middle of your career – do you have a personal business philosophy? Or a piece of advice that somebody told you that you think, ‘Yeah, that's true.' Keith: Very early on, when things weren't going well, and I was thoroughly depressed, and all my friends were being frightfully successful in their careers and I was absolutely broke. I got advised by a man who explained to me that my unhappiness was spreading to everyone else in the business was toxic. That I was a nice guy, and people liked working with me, but I needed to basically cheer up. I needed to look after how they were feeling. If everyone was in a good mood, then they do brilliantly. For the last 30 years that I've been doing business – and I've not always got it right, but I always take it very seriously – is how to make sure it's a great place to work. A great place to work is making sure that the team all know what's going on within the business, that they sign up to it, that they enjoy, that people are promoted internally, that people feel that it's a fair place to work, where they're treated with respect, that they're looked after, they know what's going on. They know what the next steps are. That happy environment or culture, as it's called, really makes a difference. You know this – when a new restaurant opens up, if it's got a stress-y owner, and a stressed-out checkout girl, who doesn't know quite what she's doing, you just think, ‘Oh God, this is a nightmare.' If it's got some fantastic flamboyant smiley person and the food's 20 minutes late and it's their opening night, you want to go back there, don't you? And I think that's what it's like for a small business. Thanks to Keith for joining us today. Remember, you can always follow us @smallbusinessuk on Twitter or at @SmallBusinessExperts on Facebook, and we'll see you next time.

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets entrepreneur and The Apprentice 2019 winner, Carina Lepore. We discuss the law of attraction and starting a business in a field that you're not familiar with. This episode was brought to you in partnership with UPS and AAT. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on starting your own business.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read the podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Carina Lepore – entrepreneur and the latest winner of The Apprentice back in 2019. She's considered the most successful candidate of all time, winning nine out of ten challenges and never appearing in the bottom two.   Before she went on the show, Carina joined her dad to start a coffee shop business after his previous bakery burned down. Now Dough Artisan Bakehouse has two branches in London and has plans to take on Greggs. We'll be talking about the law of attraction and starting a business in an unfamiliar field.  Anna: Hi Carina Carina: Hello Anna: How are you doing? Carina: Yeah, good. Anna: Hi, Carina, how you doing? Carina: Hi, I'm good. You? Anna: Yeah, I'm doing well. Enjoying this lovely heatwave after the thunderstorms yesterday. Carina: I got caught in that! Anna: Me too. Oh, I know. I know. And you think, is it just going to be sun, shower, sun, shower. Carina: I know. It was awful. Okay, so the first thing I want to ask you is a bit about before you joined your dad's bakery business. You had your first business when you were 18? Tell us a bit more about that. Carina: Yes. So, I left school, left sixth form and I had been working for our small High Street shop, I suppose, and I was really just interested in the ways he ran the business. I would start to, at a very young age, say 14-15, I'd start to ask the right questions, just try and get involved with merchandising and his little takings book and where he would get stock from. I started to want to know more about the ways the business worked, really. So, I had that keen interest and drive at such a young age. It's obviously A-Level result day [at time of recording] and we've been talking and the main thing I've just keep thinking and saying is that when you get them results, you just think, ‘Oh my God. Is this making or breaking my life?' I remember that as well – and I remember I didn't get great grades, no, but I still had that entrepreneurial drive. So, I was going do something with that. That was more my route.   I then went and opened up a shop and I did a shop, car-boot sales and a market – Wimbledon Market. What I would do is I would buy my stock. A lot what Lord Sugar says, and now I can say to him, ‘Smell what sells.' I would pick top sellers and just bung them in my shops or whatever I had. That was me really. It was bold, it was brave. It was different. It was just something I wanted to do. I was just really excited by it. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Great stuff. What was your first business then? I believe you had a fashion store. Carina: Yeah, it was a shop called Faze. And it was – well, it was a phase actually, because it didn't last too long. It was more of an ‘I wanted to do it – this is what I was going to do'. It was a sort of, what you would call now, I suppose, clothes that you see on Pretty Little Thing and Boohoo – just fashion clothes for young people. I also started to sell, this was crazy, I mean, spotting trends is key for any businessperson. I started to notice people would like, I don't know if you know, you're going to be like, ‘What a weirdo', people used to wear, like, designer gold teeth. I remember the American fashion sites come in. I was like, ‘I'm going to source grills and sell them'. At the time I was so excited. I had this famous rapper come in, I was like, ‘Oh my God'. But that's what is exciting. Now 16 years on, it's the same sort of thing. You know, you smell sales, you spot a trend, you get a few influencers to put your stuff up. That's how the world is working. So if you think you've got a great idea – and I keep touching on it, and it's my thing today – is I've really learned a lot about different routes coming out of school for A level students really I've learned loads about the qualification that AAT offer. It's an accountancy firm, and they offer this apprenticeship in accountancy. I imagine if I'd had that running alongside me working and wherever it be, whether I was at M&S or Vibe (at the time), but I would have had that in the bag as well. It would have just made me feel even more confident because I would have actually known a bit about real numbers back then. Knowing your numbers in business is just so key, so crucial. I've learned loads from Lord Sugar, he could just whip numbers up like this. Whereas, with someone like me, it takes a lot more. But if I'd had, for example, that qualification with AAT I would have been up on his level. Yeah, absolutely. And I guess you've been learning as you're going along, and your dad will have had his own experience and his own business savvy. When you decided to pair up to start the Bakehouse, how did you weave your vision with his – and potentially his business partner's? What kind of challenges did you have there? Especially as a family member, someone who was quite fragile at the time. Carina: Yeah, it's been like a roller coaster. I'm even talking pre-pandemic, that's a whole different roller coaster. And so I think he just allowed me to run with everything, every element I just would run with and I don't know whether he just found this new confidence in me as a woman, maybe as a grown-up woman when I was 18. He was telling me, ‘Oh, what silly mistake, go and get a job.' Whereas now, I was taking an even bigger risk, I was leaving a secure job at M&S with a good salary to then risk us having barely any takings, just to do something risky, but also as a passion of his and mine. And that's what I really wanted to do. I saw it as an opportunity. He was going through such a dark time, and I've never seen him go through anything like that in my life. I did take it as an opportunity for me to help him for once in our lives and give back to him. It's worked very well, because he's got this creative flair. He can't talk, he can't relay information. If he was here now – oh, bless him. He's got this creative flair and anything to do with products and recipes, his personality just comes out in all his products and he's so fun. That's what customers love. But yeah, the business side definitely needed to take a different route, more of a structured route. That's where I think have helped him. Such a huge part of that route has been appearing on The Apprentice. And I understand that you watched the previous series before you went on. What did it teach you before you went on? Carina: Oh my God that show. It was between that and MasterChef, but I'm not a chef, so I was going to be one of them. I just loved The Apprentice and everything about it. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's the challenges, the team, Lord Sugar, the scary element, the adrenaline rush – I don't know. I used to always think it was one of them shows where you think, ‘Oh, I could have done that' or ‘I would have made that' and it's making the ideas. I just love everything about the show.   I just did the application one night on my phone and then suddenly got through and then just kept getting through the application process and I thought, ‘Wow, this is for me, this is meant to be.' That's when I suddenly switched into, ‘Now I need to win the show because this is want.' I want Lord Sugar to be my business partner. ‘This is for me' – that's what I kept thinking – ‘This is meant to be.' That's all I kept thinking and then actually getting on there, getting the call that they want you in the house. It was just this surreal feeling, what an experience. I loved everything about it. Just out of interest, how many steps are there in the application process? It's as tough as the show. They set you up from day one. When you turn up [at the audition], there's obviously London, Manchester and one other place somewhere. There's three application spots, I suppose. I went to the London one. So, it was over three days – Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I went on the Sunday. I remember I turned up and there was, like, suits everywhere. It was full of ‘Wolf-of-Wall-Street-type people' as I called them. It was like everyone was boardroom ready with their briefcases and there were a couple of people like me, more down to earth. We were the minority, 100 per cent. I immediately thought, ‘Oh my God – I just rocked up.' Then what they do is – it's very tough, and you learn straight away from that first task – they give you a number, I can't remember what I was, I'm thinking it was seven. Then you stand up in groups of ten or 20, whatever. You'd stand up on the line. You have to talk for 30 seconds, just talk. ‘Number seven – talk.' Anna: About anything? Carina: Yeah, anything. Some people tried to be funny, some people would go with the whole, ‘This is what I do.' Then it was a bit X Factor style. They'd call your number – half of you would go one way, half the other. That's how the process was – you kept moving up levels. The more I started to move up, I was like, ‘Oh, I must be doing something right. I'm not going down the list, I'm going up.' So you keep going up. Then I remember sneaking off. It got to 10pm and it's exactly how the show is, the days are long. They are so vigorous and they want to literally hone out the best people for this show that they keep you there. I'm ringing my sister going, ‘It's a school night you're going to have to put Lucas [Carina's son] to bed because I'm still here.' I didn't know what was happening. They could have kept me the whole night. Then you get to the next set of practice tasks and it's just so hard. I had to write a manifesto. I didn't know what that was. I was like, ‘What is this?' Yeah, it's a very challenging application process. But they obviously just want the best candidates. That's why they make it so hard. They need to set you up for how hard the show actually is. It's so hard. It's not for the weak. It's so tough. Anna: Yeah, it's a tough 12 weeks. I've read that you're a big believer in the law of attraction, and that it did play a part in you applying for The Apprentice in the first place. First of all, could you give us a bit of an explanation as to what the law of attraction is? Carina: Yes. I'm a massive believer. I started, when I suddenly just had something clicking, I can't remember the day. But I remember doing my vision board. The vision board obviously plays a massive part. If you need any books, definitely start with The Secret. It gives you everything you need. If you want to change your mindset – I used to struggle with anxiety and massively I still do. Try to breathe and think that everything is written and everything is for a reason and that it's about manifesting what you want and believing in what you want and achieving and getting your results, really. I remember this one example. I think I told This Morning or something I was on with Ruth and Eamon. And I remember saying, I sat in my shop – August is always quiet. We're going through the same thing now. So, I remember it was an August month, and it must have been 2018, just before I applied for the show. I sat there and I saw the AMS 1 (Lord Sugar's car). It was that car. It was like an entourage of three cars, I was like, ‘It's Lord Sugar.' I knew the car from the show. And I immediately saw it as a sign. This is meant to be my business partner. So that was all good. I then applied for the show in January and got on. It all happened quite quickly. If you believe and if you really think this is [meant to be]. I remember, that was a sign. I'm now going to either meet Lord Sugar, or I had Karren Brady on my vision board. Again, pre-Apprentice, she was up there, just as I didn't know… This is a thing with the law of attraction – you can put it out there, but you just you don't know where it's going to come in. You can't force it. It might just happen. Then it just happens that everything I have on that board was ticked off. It's crazy. I talk to my friends about it who are big believers. One of them is a big artist. He's really known in the world of music. He is just so successful with it. He has this vision board, he shows people what he puts on, he then takes it off a year later. It could take years, months, I don't know. But you'll slowly start to think that I'm actually getting everything I want out of life. That's what's so important. I could talk about it all day, I get so passionate about it. And I'm finding other people that really understand it and believe in that way of life. I appreciate that a lot of it is based on positive psychology – visualisations, gratitude, that kind of thing. What would you say to people who are more sceptical and think it's a bit victim blaming in some ways? Maybe there's a sense that if somebody in a business example, say you're struggling with their business, they're maybe not manifesting in the right way. Perhaps it devalues the work that the individual does and says it's more from the universe rather than the actions that the individual has put towards achieving their goals? What kind of things would you say to them? Carina: Yeah, people think differently to me, which is fine. But ultimately, you get the results that you are willing to put in. I'm not saying you've got to go and say this is the thing. This is what the books teach you. I might want a mansion, I haven't got a mansion yet, but as long as I keep believing that I'm going to have a mansion, then maybe hopefully one day, we'll just put it out there, just give it away and then stop thinking about it. But with regards to running a successful business, if my mindset was like, ‘That's it. What a bad month' or looking at takings for that month or, ‘We hit a pandemic, we can't trade anymore.' If you just say that to yourself all day, you're going to eventually get into a lull where negativity is just eating you up and you won't be able to see a way out. Anytime I'm having a bad week, of course, you have to then really think about your thoughts because they play such a big part. But it's very easy to get wrapped up in those negative thoughts. I even still struggle with it. For example, last month was a tough month, and I remember thinking ‘Ugh', but then I put a plan in place. That's all – you just got to spin it back to, ‘We're going to go again, team. Come on, let's go again, let's strive for more.' So, I have a bad day and then I'm suddenly back with a notepad and loads of notes. We go again and we push harder. But yeah, getting into a lull is hard, you've just got to find something that can find a way that can get you out, whether it's taking yourself away for a bit, self-love or self-care which is so important. Again, something I struggle with. I really have to force myself to switch off, but you have to because otherwise you'll be eaten up with all the bad thoughts. You just have to think, ‘Right, let's go again.' You know? With anxiety and having to keep your mental health and your thoughts and your mindset in check. In the last meeting that you had with Scarlett and Lord Sugar, and she said that you weren't an established business, you're a newbie and you didn't really know a lot about the industry. How did that make you feel at the time? How did you cope in such a high-pressure situation? Carina: Yeah, you do. You do want to just react instantly when there's something said about your business or yourself or your character or anything like that. It heightens the tension in the room – it's already really as high as it can be. I can't remember my answer. You might have it but I'm sure I was just more of the guidance. And I'd show I would just talk to Lord Sugar and say, ‘Well, I do know my business and I can tell you what I know about my business' and I would then just relay everything. I didn't understand her business. I would sit there. I think Claude said to me once, like, ‘You can you can take a nap now.' So maybe she didn't understand what I was trying to relay and that I didn't know my business. But yeah, even if you're a newbie and a start-up, like I've been touching upon, if you can get a great qualification, and if you can understand the importance of spotting trends, and run with it, take risks. Actually, that is exactly what I was just about to ask you. We do sometimes come across entrepreneurs or want-to-be entrepreneurs who are wanting to go into a field that they're not so familiar with. As someone who has been there, what advice might you have for them? Carina: I didn't know. And I still get dinged up on about being the baker who doesn't bake. That was the whole tagline I ended up getting from the show, but I didn't let it deter me or let it put me off. In them interviews that we do with Claude and the scary interviewers, it was so scary. They were just picking me up on the fact that, ‘How can you know your business if you don't know your business?' My argument was that you can be a club owner, you could be a restaurant owner or hotelier, it doesn't mean that I'm going to be the chef of the restaurant or the barman and I'm going know every cocktail, every recipe. It's more about your leadership skills, I think, and your passion for that business and that drive. I love everything about the bakery – I love bread, I love seeing them make it. It doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to muck in and make it, but I love the process. I love everything about it. That's where my passion shines through in customer care, the customer service piece. I tried to relay that in the show that that is actually more important. Knowing your customers and knowing what they want rather than me actually knowing how to knead a loaf. You employ people to do certain skills, you don't have to have everything. So that was my argument for the show. Any young people out there who have a passion for something, obviously learn about it and know your business, because that is very important. But you don't actually have to be the chef or whatever. Looping right back to the start. For people who have got their A levels today and they maybe didn't get the grades that they expected and they maybe want to go down the entrepreneurial route. What would you say to them?  Carina: I've learned a lot myself from the qualification that AAT are offering. I'm just going to throw out the link. Basically, it's an accountancy firm, and it's an accountancy apprenticeship. The link to that is aat.org.uk/123. The 123 spheres on the fact that knowing your numbers is so key. If you didn't get the grades you want and you know in your heart that university isn't for you, then definitely explore other routes, explore this route from AAT. See if it's for you. If you've got ideas about business, just make sure you've got a notepad, keep everything jotted down with what you want to do. Keep learning, keep networking. Get all the knowledge you need, reach out to people – some people will get back to you and give you tips and advice in the field you want to go into. Anna: Great. Well, that seems like a very good place to end. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Carina. Carina: Thank you. Thanks for having me. You can find out more about Dough Artisan Bakehouse at doughbakehouse.co.uk. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more on starting your own business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lower case) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Dragon Tej Lalvani and entrepreneur Sam Jones. We discuss how pitching on Dragon's Den from both sides. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on perfecting your investment pitch.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read the podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Tej Lalvani and Sam Jones – one is CEO of Vitabiotics and Dragon on Dragon's Den and the other is an entrepreneur who, according to Touker Souleyman, gave one of the best pitches he's ever seen in the Den. Sam went into the Den looking for £60,000 in exchange for ten per cent equity of his internet browser company, Gener8. Wowed by the pitch, Touker Suleyman and Peter Jones teamed up to invest in the entrepreneur, leaving Tej and Deborah Meaden with cash in their pockets. Tej sought out Sam after the show, becoming one of a group of high-profile investors to back the firm. After four years on the show, Tej will be stepping back from Dragon's Den later this year to focus on growing Vitabiotics.     We'll be talking about making a pitch – from both sides of the Den.  Anna: Hi guys, how you getting on? Sam and Tej: Hi Anna, how are you? Anna: Yeah, doing really, really well. Thanks. Sam: Awesome. Good to be here this afternoon. Thanks for having us on. Right, we've got quite a bit to get through, as you've heard in the intro. I'll start with you, Sam, talk us through the process of going on Dragon's Den and anything that stood out to you particularly. Sam: Well, wow, I mean, what an experience. It'd be hard to put that into 30 seconds. But really quickly, I start with what's happened since and then I'll jump back to what happened during so. Since Dragon's Den, the reaction has been incredible. The pitch went viral. With about 20 million views on Facebook and other five million views on LinkedIn, we were averaging a new download every ten seconds for about seven or eight weeks. Off the back of that, more than 30 different press outlets wrote about us. We used this momentum to raise a modest round of funding, which we were super fortunate to be able to include. Of course, Tej Lalvani and bringing him on board alongside people like Tinie Tempah (the rapper) and Harry Redknapp (the football manager). It's been a whirlwind since Dragon's Den, which is amazing. Going back to the pitch – God, I mean, this was a hell of an experience. I think that we all know, from watching it on TV, that when you walk through those doors, and you come out of that lift, anything can happen. Of course, from the entrepreneur's perspective, you hardly sleep the night before, because you're just so nervous. So, you're standing there in this lift, light-headed and the butterflies are multiplying in your stomach and you're trying your best just to hold it together. But then your head's getting noisier – you can't even remember your opening line – and you're just trying to tell yourself to breathe. And then there's that moment where the doors open, and you walk out to the left. It's total silence. You see the Dragons sitting in front of you, just like you do on TV. You even hear the echo of your own footsteps as you're walking out to that mark on the floor to start your pitch. I think that's tough no matter who you are. That's tough. But that's how all of the entrepreneurs start on Dragon's Den. That's amazing because you looked so cool and calm when you were on the TV. It's hard to believe that all of this was rushing through your head at the time. Sam: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think you're standing in front of these five incredible characters that we've all seen on TV for so long. And of course, you know what each one of those investors can bring to your business. So, I think the real art is being able to calm your mind, take that breath, and then go in and communicate your pitch really clearly. Yeah, absolutely. And talk us through the stages before that, because I'm sure people who are listening or watching might be thinking of, maybe someday, going on Dragon's Den. Sam: Sure. In terms of preparing, well, the thing that I did really simply was I just practiced the pitch, probably 100 times – probably more than 100 times. I knew it inside out. Of course, I watched a lot of Dragon's Den as well. I imagined answering every question, but then more than that, I just knew my business. I know why I started Gener8, I know what we want to achieve. And then really the challenge was just keeping that mental clarity so I could communicate that to these guys when I was standing there. What about you, Tej – what were your first impressions when Sam walked into the Den? Tej: Well look, as an investor, as a Dragon, you look for a couple of things in terms of what they're pitching and the entrepreneur themselves. When you're investing, obviously, the pitch is important – to understand the clarity of it. And sometimes, you know, entrepreneurs don't communicate what it is. And of course, what Sam presented is not an easy thing to try and grasp in layman's terms. He did a great job of doing that. Then secondly is the opportunity you see in the business. It seemed a very strong opportunity to potentially disrupt certain things. You ask questions to the entrepreneur and you see how they respond accordingly. So the questions I asked, he responded very quickly, promptly and dealt with the issue, because sometimes entrepreneurs may deflect the question if they can't answer it. He took on board some of those points or concerns I had, and very clearly went through them and said, ‘Okay, that's a potential risk', ‘this is a problem and this is not the solution for it'. That impressed me. I think just the space as well, the tech space I was interested in. So really, there's a couple of things that you look at, and it sort of ticked all the boxes in my head as a potential investment. I thought it was a fantastic pitch, yeah. Amazing. Do you have anything to add to that as to what other entrepreneurs who may consider going on Dragon's Den can learn from Sam's pitch? Tej: Well, as Sam said earlier, one is about practicing and watching Dragon's Den. So few people actually come and really watch the episodes because everything is pretty much there. And you can see how sometimes you can go completely on a tangent because other entrepreneurs have not prepared, they've not been transparent. You could get a complete grilling versus having four or five offers sometimes. I think that that is important, preparation. Of course, nerves hit you, and some people can manage them better than others. The Dragons will be lenient if you do forget certain things, because there is that pressure on national television. However, it's how you deal with it. And this understanding – have you been actually prepared? The other important thing is understanding the full aspect – all of your business, the ins and outs of it. Sometimes, the entrepreneur says, ‘I don't really do that, that's not my role'. But it is your business. You're an entrepreneur, you need to understand everything about the finances, to the marketing, to the competitors. That is very important as someone who wants to pitch to Dragon's Den. Be clear for what you want and what you're asking for. They just sometimes come on and say, ‘I want this amount of money'. What are you going to do with that money? How's it going to work? And what do you really want from a Dragon? The clearer the entrepreneur is – the better, the more concise – and really try and explain your business in simple terms. And very quickly, people just someone's got one for now and you like, and half the time is the questions about trying to understand, ‘What does your business do'? So really, that is an important part. Get that sorted out and use the other time to try and get the investment and negotiate the deal that you want from the Dragons. Yeah, and sometimes it's not even on the show, because you've got the due diligence to go through afterwards. Off camera, of course. Tej: Yeah. I mean, that's a different process altogether. But I mean, in the Den, the idea is you have an intent to do a deal with the entrepreneur. And of course, during due diligence, certainties can probably pop up. The BBC can only do a certain amount of due diligence. As an investor and as a shareholder, there are things about shareholders agreements that you need to look at – the bank, the finances – is it correct? Is there more debt than what was given in the show? By the time you do a deal, it could take three or four months, and the situation may change for an entrepreneur as well. They're all aspects that get involved. But by and large we try and do every single deal that we agree in the Den. Great. Sam, coming back to you, when you were having your discussion with the wall, what was that like? What was going through your head? Sam: To be honest, I think that was quite a surreal moment, because I'd spent so much time, effort and energy in preparing to try to get to that stage. But when that happened, there is this kind of rush of emotion and adrenaline, where I think I was so pleased that when I asked to go to the back, I think you can see on the piece that is broadcasted on TV, I have this big grin across my face, because I'm there thinking, ‘Blimey, what a great place to be,' and reflecting kind of momentarily on the journey up until there. Before then, of course, thinking, ‘Okay, what are the offers in front of me? How should I go back and handle this?' So yeah, it was a fantastic moment, really. It must have been nerve-wracking for yourself, Tej, because you'd put forward an offer. You must just be sitting there in that moment thinking, ‘Well, what is he going to decide? Is he going to take it? Who's he going to go with?' Tej: Absolutely. I mean, it's, it's always a tense moment. And that's the fun of the show because you are competing against other Dragons genuinely for investment. And it's about communicating what value you can add as an entrepreneur to help the journey and grow the business at the same time. It's important from the entrepreneur's side and trying to communicate that at the same time. And of course, then you have the flexibility of percentage investment, whether you offer more money for the same percentage or whether you prepared to take less equity for the same amount of money. Those levers are there. And then you just see what happens. Of course, ultimately, the entrepreneur decides – they make the decision. You win deals and you lose deals all the time. Yeah, it must have felt like that on this particular occasion you missed out. Tej: Yeah, well, it felt like was I should have provided free office space! Anna: Touker finally shifted it! Tej: Of course it was disappointing. But equally, I believed in Sam's vision and what he was doing. We did reach out afterwards, got in touch and and subsequently made the investment because I thought I could add great value to the business. I thought this was a great opportunity. And so it worked out that way. Great. You say that you've never sought out an entrepreneur that's appeared on the show before – how did you go about seeking out Sam? Tej: Previously, if I've lost deals in the Den, or they haven't gone through, then usually I just didn't get it for a particular reason. I just leave it. But yeah, I thought that was an important decision. And at the time, Sam chose two people. The more I thought about it, the more I thought it was a great opportunity. So, I contacted Sam, and, obviously the other Dragons, Touker and Peter, who invested. They were very happy to have me on board as well. We had a discussion and worked out a deal that was great for everyone. Talking post-pitch, what's in the future for Gener-8, especially in terms of managing customer expectation around what kind of rewards they can get, for example? Sam: Right now, the future is really exciting. We're growing incredibly fast still. So, 1000s and 1000s of new users are downloading Gener8 all the time. We're scaling the team. When Dragon's Den aired, there was just four of us. Now we've tripled to about 11 or 12 of us. There'll be 15 of us once we finish this hiring spree. Increasing internal capability is a key thing here. Additionally, we're working on our mobile app to get this developed, out in the world. We've got over 50,000 people on the waiting list for the app already, which is fantastic. From our side, it's full steam ahead. We're chasing down these opportunities. I mean, it really feels like we've captured the Zeitgeist in empowering people to control and learn from their data. We're just running full speed ahead with that, really. How do you scale up at such a rate as you are without over-expanding or taking any of those kinds of risks? Sam: It's amazing to have people like Tej, Peter and Touker – and some of our other shareholders too – who have also been in in similar fast-growth businesses. These guys have gone through it before. There is a tried and tested playbook. Particularly if I look at one of our investors, who is the former CEO of Spotify, he's been there with the explosive tech growth. Asking our shareholders and our board is always a great area to get guidance from. The other thing as a result of explosive growth is that, as you're saying, you need to scale up to meet your consumers' expectations. There's always a little bit of a time lag in there. It's a positive problem. Of course, it is a teething pain that you need to get through. To give you some context, we can receive over 1000 emails, DMs (direct messages) or messages every day from users and new users who are getting in touch. On Friday, when I left the office, we were down to zero in our inbox. On Monday when the team came back, that's today, we're at over 1700. Of course, there is this period where we need to put in place structures and capabilities and manpower that will enable us to respond quicker and more efficiently and more effectively. We're getting there. It's exciting, as you can imagine. Yeah. Tej, I can imagine your unique insight has been invaluable here as well, in terms of scaling up in a sustainable way. Tej: Yeah. What we like to do is work with Sam and see all the all the things he needs for the business to help grow it and we provide it essentially as a wish list. And whether it's opening doors or contacts or help on strategy or advice, we're available here to be able to help with the business because we all believe in the mission equally, too. It's a movement, as Sam was talking about, and it's a lot more important than just monetary. It's actually changing the game, people are able to control their data and monetise. Great. Coming back to a more general topic. Tej, you are very active on social media and you often ask your followers for tips and what their priorities are, what their business goals are. Have you ever seen an example of a bit of business advice or a mantra that's been presented to you that's made such an impression on you that you've adopted it yourself? Tej: With social media, I enjoy interacting with all the followers and I try and give bits and tips of advice that I've learned along the way. There are many that can apply to different people. And it's great to hear feedback from how it's helped change people or given them the push they needed to set up their business. To take decisions that need to be done that may be difficult. So, in terms of advice that I think they will follow is that there are a couple of principles in my life. One is that, as a person, I always want to learn and grow all the time. Number two is that if you want to do something, set up a business, you just have to get started and do it. A lot of the time people try and wait for the perfect opportunity or the perfect idea. That's really hard to do, because it doesn't exist. What usually happens is, when you come up with an idea, what you end up with is quite different to what you started with. I think it's always an evolving thing of business. If you have something, just go for it and see what happens. People have that hesitation. I believe in today's world, when you're selling a business, it's always important to focus on a niche, because there's no point in trying to be everything to everyone. You'd rather be great at something in particular which no one else can beat you at, then trying to provide something for everyone that's slightly better than everybody else. So, there are the essential principles. As for quick tips, I'd say, when it comes to setting up a business. A lot of the time when people start businesses, they imagine how it's going to be, but it's a lot of firefighting, a lot of problem solving throughout the way – as long as you're prepared for it. My wife set up a business recently as well and I told her that, and she realises that that's exactly what it is. There are always issues, always challenges. That could be small, it could be big. But if that's what your day is, and it's about, despite all that, how do you grow? How do you exponentially build your business at the same time? Yeah, that's also why as far as again, you should be working on your business, not in your business so that you can help drive it forward. And a similar question to you, Sam – what's the best piece of business advice you've ever been given? Sam: Oh, I've been given so much amazing advice that it'd be difficult to select one piece now. But something that I can tell you, or tell the listeners, which I think might be helpful. If they're ever looking to pitch for investment, or go on Dragon's Den, I think the biggest variable that will impact the outcome is how you think about yourself when you go into that situation. What I mean by that is that you need to start by reminding yourself that you're not singing for your supper. Never stand hat-in-hand, asking for money, because that's the quickest way to turn someone off. Instead, I think that you've got to believe that you're sharing a secret with the investor. So, you're telling them about an opportunity that they're not aware of, you're pulling away the curtain and unveiling a hidden truth that's been in front of their eyes all along. And if they're lucky, you might be willing to invite them on the journey with you. Now, how much more exciting is that? So, the tip that I would give is remember that you're sharing a secret, you're not singing for your supper, anytime that you're meeting with investors or asking for investment. Tej: I think it was Henry Ford who said this quote: ‘Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.' Because really, it's in a belief in your mind. And if you think you can't do it, then you're right, you won't want to do it. But if you think you can, and you want to do it, nearly everything is possible. Anna: Well, that seems like a great point to end. I'd like to thank you both for coming on. Tej: Thank you. It's been great. Thank you for having us. Hope it was useful. Sam: Thanks so much for having us. Anna: Thanks, guys. You can find out more about Gener8 at gener8ads.com and about Tej at tejlalvani.com. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for articles on perfecting your investment pitch. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lower case) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

Shipping across borders can be quite complex and is one of the main reasons many small businesses face export and expansion challenges. In this episode of Small Business Snippets, Anna Jordan discusses some of these challenges, the expectations of online shoppers and how the right partner can assist, with UPS's Marketing Director Arthur Lam and supplement provider YourZooki's co-founder, Marcus Mollinga. Find out more about consumers' expectations of small businesses in UPS's Smart E-Commerce report here. Want to read the UPS podcast instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have something a little bit different for you. We have a sponsored episode with our partner, UPS. I'm joined by Arthur Lam, director of marketing at UPS and Marcus Mollinga, co-founder of vitamin brand, YourZooki.        Anna: Hi, guys, how you doing? Arthur and Marcus: Good. Rather than me introducing you, and getting a bit winded, I'll let you guys introduce yourselves. Arthur, tell us a bit more about yourself and your role at UPS. Arthur: Sure thing. A little bit about myself, I've been very fortunate to have helped customers both big and small in the last 20 years at UPS in different capacities starting, originally, in North America, the nature pack. I'm currently now the marketing director for our UK, Ireland and Nordics businesses. Very happy to be here and to share my thoughts and best practices that I came across. Anna: And now you, Marcus. Marcus: Yep, so I'm one of the co-founders of YourZooki. YourZooki's one of the fastest growing companies in the UK. We specialise in liquid supplements, which are more bioavailable compared to capsules, pills and powders. Most of what we're going to talk about today is around international shipping and how small businesses can deal with the logistics and the issues that they face scaling up – and shipping and logistics. I'm going to start off talking to you a bit more Marcus, because YourZooki has scaled up majorly over the course of the pandemic. How did you deal with the logistics of doing that? How did your shipping provider help? Marcus: During 2020, we're in our fifth year of business now. Each year, we sort of doubled in size. Last year, we saw huge amounts of growth, especially on the online side of the business, so there's a fire alarm going off. Last year, we scaled really fast. Covid, for our type of business, that was good. In a sense where we employed lots of new people – more people interested in taking vitamins and supplements over other products. In terms of scaling and to triple a business in terms of revenue in the space of 12 months is a really difficult thing to be. So one of the major things we had to do was ensure we had the right partner to get things from A to B, because it's easy to acquire a customer to get the product made, then get an appointment from A to B is also one of the key elements in our supply chain. With UPS, for us to scale fast involves selling in different countries, and selling into Germany, France, Holland, Ireland is a huge market for us, ensuring that we can get product there, then (within?) a couple of day. Timeframe is key. And UPS, I think at some points, we used to go from having a couple of orders a day, four or five years ago, to having full lorry loads coming in two or three times a day daily just to get orders out. To really scale fast, you need to have a good product, a full supply chain from making the product to getting the product to the customer, and capital. We had to raise investment to take us to that next level as well to keep up with the growth. Arthur, how do you, or somebody like UPS, support a business as it scales? Arthur: A lot of businesses, such as YourZooki, are on markets that have gone through a rapid growth in the last 18 months. Especially within the challenges that we see from a pandemic standpoint, we've seen a huge surge in online shopping. While the shift towards eCommerce was kind of expected from a long-term trend perspective, but the global pandemic has definitely sped up that trend in regards to planning for changes throughout the shipping and logistics space. My advice is to really make sure that your business systems and processes are as seamless as possible, tailored to the individual strengths, challenges and goals of the business needs that some of the small and medium-sized business they're seeing. That's one of the reasons why we at UPS offer a range of services for businesses of all sizes. Maybe you are start-up looking for a free eCommerce shipping plugin, which allows you to integrate a wide range of UPS delivery services into your e-storefront. Or maybe you are SMB looking to expand your business overseas such as what we just heard. We have a variety of solutions to make the shipping process as simple as possible. But one thing that I would often remind companies, as we just heard, that they know what creating your product and shipping it out, it's one thing how about, we cannot really just focus on the post-sales aspect, including the hassle-free return process, will really be part of a kind of instead of just creating or acquiring a one-time shopper versus acquiring a long term repeat customer. To help companies to scale and to really understand that eCommerce market better. Our smart eCommerce report, which you can download via the link in the description box, included findings from surveys for over 10,000 consumers across some of the key European markets. In those reports, it says that 35 per cent of UK shoppers believe that it is easier still to return unwanted products in person. So, in a way that really tells me that there's still a lot of room to grow in regards to making the return aspect of the surface easier. If companies have goals to cultivate long term, repeat business, and want to provide a soft, smooth return, I think it is important to work with experienced logistic providers to able to streamline that process and be able to provide different options. We as UPS, for example, we do have a comprehensive parcel return service option. You can either pre-printed labels to ship out your order, your mobile barcode and also we have convenient drop-off and delivery points through our UPS access point locations. So really, you can choose the best fit for you, as well as for your customers. Yeah, I'm sure services like that are amazingly helpful. And of course, there's been loads of changes to shipping logistics recently. Next, I'd like to just talk a bit more about like how you safeguard against those uncertainties. I mean, of course, we've had Covid this year, which we weren't expecting. As a small business who ships internationally, how do you safeguard yourself against those kinds of uncertainties? Marcus: What we did – initially we were just a UK-based company, and we set up third-party logistics centres in the USA, in Ireland and in the Netherlands. What that allowed us to do, and, with Brexit, we were still using UPS. But we were really focused on LTV, which is the lifetime value of a customer. So any eCommerce company has to really focus on what is the lifetime value of a customer, and forced to open up a 3PLs in a separate company in a separate country to improve that customer experience, still using UPS to get the product to the end customer made complete sense for us, because we could shave off a day of shipping. What we did to scale fast, which I'm sure lots of other companies are doing, is looking at opening third-party logistics centres in different countries. How do you go about setting up these third-party logistics centres? Marcus: I guess it's like a dating process, you've got to speak to lots of different companies. Sue, who's our account manager at UPS, recommended a few companies we spoke to in different countries. But yeah, you've just got to get to know the company, understand their fees, understand how they work and ensure it's the right fit for your product. There'll be specialist 3PL companies for clothing, for food and health and wellness products like ours, for drinks, which might have ‘fragile' stickers on, for example. There's all these different types of three PR companies. And it's a similar process to finding an agency or whoever – you've just got to ensure you're comfortable with them as a business. Arthur: I think it's unexpected from a UK business standpoint, because of what we kind of discuss the changes in the United Kingdom from a Brexit standpoint, or EU VAT reform that we're seeing in July. Crossing borders now requires – coordination compliancy is a big issue, and also the right documentation and paperwork that goes all along with it. As we see that the new regulation takes hold and reforms take hold, we really need to help customers to pivot their business to ensuring that they have all the information that they need in regards to sending packages, receiving packages, working with different partners –  as Marcus has mentioned. So for example, a customer might not right now know that what they need in regards to shipping internationally because it is different from the past. Tools that we have at UPS including UPS treatability – it helps customers to really understand what some of the documentation does it require and also provide estimated landed costs, calculation including duties, custom fees and potential taxes. One of the most important things that I see for my best practice standpoint is really informing your end customers were doing the ordering process that are they expected to be paying for duties and taxes or when the retailer the company is taking that aspect of it included in the overall price. I think that's really speaking about customer experience. Another factor, as I mentioned earlier is kind of the EU VAT reform that started in July 1, really impacting any imports into Europe that's from worldwide, it's not just for UK that value up to 150 euros, and likely that it's going to change the way that especially for my eCommerce step one how what is the procedure and process is going to be so for people that are not aware, what's changing. So as of July 1, the VAT exemption for imports into the EU will the intrinsic value of 22 euros has been abolished. So before, there's no VAT to worry about going to this customer, so everything's fine and dandy. Now, the European Commission has created this, they call import one-stop shop, or IOSS platform that they have launched to help to settle this VAT in Europe for goods up to 150 euros. The last thing is the online marketplace. If you're selling on that the online marketplace itself will be responsible for the compliancy of the euro VAT, when you're selling goods up to 150 euros. Now, that's a lot of jargon. So far, not going to be able to explain all of the ins and outs in this particular podcast, but one thing that we do at UPS is really to continue our commitment in regards to supporting our small business customer through these changes. UPS has selected the test consultant PwC (PriceWaterhouseCooper) to offer IOSS intermediary and compliance service for our customers who currently don't have an EU based establishment. Our customers can register for these PwC hours as assistance on our website, if they so choose. Great. And of course, we're talking about small businesses as a customer. But we also recognise that especially since the pandemic has hit a lot of customers of your customers' businesses are going online and it looks as if that shift could move online significantly for the long-term. I guess, Marcus, is that works quite well for you because I mean, you're predominantly an online product though, I understand that you do sell in store as well. Marcus: To be fair, the majority is switched from month to month, but a big part of our revenue is still in retail. We're sold in close to 4000 stores worldwide. In the USA and GNC, Holland and Barrett and Boots in the UK, but we're also in hundreds of independent stores around the UK and Ireland and UPS do all of our deliveries to the independent stores. So, for example, a local pharmacy, and who's ordering a couple of boxes, and UPS does all of our B2B. So, so we use UPS as a D2C and a B2B solution. The shift online, from an operations point of view, is easier. But I still think being in retail is fantastic. You know, we have some great retail partners and it's mutually beneficial. We sell a lot of products in their stores which helps build the brand awareness for our brand. I don't think the high street is going to disappear. I think it's just going to change and how products are sold. And I still think more and more people will be shopping online, but I don't think the high street is going to disappear. I think they've just got to adapt to how they sell products and put more importance on the experience for the customer in the store. Absolutely. Staying on the online side of it. Arthur, what advice would you give to SMBs who are dealing with this changing market who are more and more online and their expectations as to what they would want from a business that is retailing online. Arthur: Yeah, so I think, for customer care, end customer by habits have definitely changed. And I agree with Marcus that the high street is not going to go away. I think people still need the interaction, still wants to see touch and feel and so on. They're probably just going to be operating in a different way.  Now, in regards to the changing habit and what they expect from retailers or cars, businesses, we saw that from a recent World Economic Forum report actually predicts by 2030, the last mile delivery expected to grow by 80 per cent. As we know, you can buy a lot of groceries online now, there's food delivery and online stores. All those things add up and unfortunately do create global emissions to rise and the transport sectors, contribute to around 21 per cent of that. And then roll freight is around 29 per cent. However, we do also see that consumers are really leading the charge and demanding more from businesses in regards to sustainability. Within our report, we actually did see some insights and findings, I can back this up as well. Consumers are not just right now, of course not in the boardroom to fall for any sustainability strategy of a particular business. But we do see that they are indirectly voting with their wallets during their purchasing decision. You see that our survey that 64 per cent of respondents actually said that it is important that a retail delivery partner offers sustainable delivery options. 32 per cent of shoppers wanted to see small and independent retailers offset their carbon footprint and deliveries. And an over a third of UK respondents said that they wanted to see retailers offer out alternative delivery options at a reduced price. For example, if I were to pick up from a locker or collection point, give me that option so that I can choose and be a responsible citizen while at the same time getting that flexibility and such. So, we are UPS we do offer this possibility via our UPS Access Points Locations, as I mentioned, offering free redirect options up to 15 minutes before they deliver, providing choice and convenience to our customers and that's for our customers who are businesses that are trying to provide that options to the end consumers to help them to become good corporate citizens as well. Marcus, are you seeing the same sorts of expectations in terms of flexibility and sustainability from your customer base? Marcus: I think sustainability is a huge thing at the moment. I think it's going to continue for the rest of our lives, hopefully. And we've invested quite a lot of money recently, we've recently had our products certified carbon negative – not carbon neutral, carbon negative. I believe we're one of the first supplement brands in the world to be certified as carbon negative. We've also implemented a recycling rewards scheme where we encourage all of our customers to recycle their sachets. In return, they'll get rewarded by points on the website, which reduces the cost price of the next purchase. I think consumers are happy to pay and invest more money into brands, who are carbon neutral or carbon negative or investing and giving to charity or doing something good for the local community. That's definitely a big part for people looking to set up a new brand. I think that, maybe ten years ago, that wouldn't be part of the business plan. But I think in today's generation, it definitely needs to be part of the business plan, where part of your business is dedicated to helping the local community and ensuring you have a positive impact on the world. Anna: Yeah, absolutely. I think consumers are becoming a lot savvier as to where items come from, and then they can do so much research themselves. I think that's such a huge consideration. Arthur: If I could add to that point, to follow up figures from earlier. But then there's one last one that I'll throw out, because it relates directly to what Marcus is saying. In the research that we saw in the report, it's very clear that millennials and Gen Z, that people who are under the age of 34, they have confirmed that 53 per cent of them in UK have said that a brand sustainability record is actually their number one priority. This is definitely a major shift from for the previous generations and other target customers. So, as brands continue to look for where they sit in regards to competitiveness and growth is definitely an area that needs to be focused on. It's very happy to see that, that all the work that YourZooki has been doing on that aspect. Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's brilliant. And so we've covered a fair bit of ground here, is there anything either of you would like to add or you feel would be relevant to anything that we've discussed today. Marcus: I think from a small business point of view, we first started working with UPS literally on our first orders leaving we were working from home, from the kitchen table doing one or two orders a week with UPS. They've grown with us throughout the whole the life of the business. And now we have a couple of loads every day come into the warehouse. So I think it's interesting to see how you can create a partnership and that partnership isn't there just for six months just to get you from A to B, but there were the whole lifecycle the business. Yeah, sustaining those long-term relationships is so important. Do you have any advice as to how to maintain these relationships? Marcus: I think, from my point of view, from a brand owners point of view, any relationship including the relationship of UPS, I think it's really important to have open communication, whether you're working with an investor, manufacturer, three PL or your logistics partner. So always good just to communicate. You always want someone you can pick up the phone to and just ask them a question. and you know the answer, and if they don't answer, they'll return the call. Lots of companies won't return your call. It's very difficult to win a business in the early days, where you can't pick up the phone and ask someone a question. And with UPS, especially during the Brexit scenario, we were on the phone to our account manager a couple of times a day in help and advice on how we get products into certain countries and the correct paperwork we need. It's a very personable approach, which helps us. It saves us money, because we're not having to employ someone else to head up that department and figure out themselves. We're utilising UPS as resources to help benefit our business. Great. Anything you want to add to that, Arthur? Arthur: No, no. I think as I mentioned earlier, the consultative approach that I mentioned. Everywhere we go through, we really want to partner with our customers through MP. So even in the upcoming seasons, we'll be working with our customers to understand how they are seeing their orders being projected so that we can work through to ensure that we can provide the top-notch service that they are looking for. I think, at the end, I think I would say is really I thank, Marcus and his companies I guess patronage in regards to from the beginning, and I'm sure that we would have more years to come to continue to partner and, as their company continue to grow into different areas, different continents, different lanes, we will be continue to be there with them through the process. Anna: Well, that's seems like a good place to wrap up, so thank you for coming on the podcast Arthur and Marcus. Arthur and Marcus: Cheers. You can find out more about UPS and the Smart eCommerce Report through the link in the description box below. Find out more about YourZooki by visiting yourzooki.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on exports and international business. Remember to like us on Facebook at SmallBusinessExperts, follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lowercase and subscribe to our YouTube channel, using the link in the description below. Until next time, thank you for listening.  

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Spencer Matthews – entrepreneur, TV personality and angel investor. We discuss how his experiences with alcohol encouraged him to launch his low and no alcohol drinks business, CleanCo. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on branding and valuing your business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Spencer Matthews' podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Spencer Matthews – entrepreneur, TV personality and angel investor. Spencer rose to fame on TV's Made in Chelsea and has since appeared in other shows including Celebrity Masterchef and The Jump. These days, he is the founder and CEO of low and no alcohol drinks company, CleanCo, and an investor in Cheesies cheese snacks, mental resilience app, Halen and healthy meal delivery service, Munchfit. We'll be talking about starting a business post-pandemic and what Spencer looks for as an angel investor. Anna: Hi, Spencer. Spencer: Hi, how are you getting on? Anna: Yeah, I'm doing really well. Thanks. Yeah, looking forward to the bank holiday weekend, How about yourself? Spencer: Very much. So everything's slightly blurry at the moment, plenty going on. Delighted to be as busy as we are in this tricky time, but all is well. Great stuff. Okay. First, I'd like to ask you a bit about your business CleanCo, which we mentioned in the intro. And I'm sure people are thinking, ‘Oh no, not another reality TV star jumping on the bandwagon over a trend and starting a business around it'. But yours comes from a more personal place and your own relationship with alcohol. Talk to us a bit more about that. Spencer: Absolutely. I mean, I have that same reaction just in passing that many others do when reality stars or actors start businesses and expect it to be successful based on their personality, which often isn't the case. But no, my business – or our business, I should say – now we have an incredible team and fantastic shareholders and partners, which I look forward to getting on to, was born from a personal need. I drank excessively for many years – alcohol, I mean – for many years. I decided to make a positive change, and move and throttle back my alcohol intake, well, to the point of teetotalism. For a couple of years, at least, I noticed that there was very little in the way of a credible alternative or replacement in the space. And I personally have always thought that change is quite a tricky thing. When you develop behavioural patterns in society, it's often quite difficult to break them. And I think that comes from a lack of good products in interesting markets. The gap between desire and compromise is often quite vast. That's why people stick in the in the desire camp – because a compromise is a compromise. Who would want to compromise when what you're really looking for is desire? So yeah, I noticed that when I fancy a gin and tonic, that the next best thing was either just tonic water or Diet Coke. And actually, in the UK, in particular, that made me stick out. Making a positive life choice made me stick out in a negative way, which I also thought was exciting. We set about creating a clean drinking space where you can enjoy all the benefits of a non-alcoholic drink that's essentially seemingly alcoholic. Following in the footsteps of a very successful non-alcoholic beer, of course. So in a nutshell, we just wanted to give people the experience and the social experience of ‘having fun' in drinking alcohol without the high levels of alcohol. Yeah, absolutely. You talk about trying to do a positive thing with a negative reaction. Could you talk a bit more about what kind of reception you've had? Spencer: I just think in general, not everywhere in the world, but here perhaps in particular, and times are changing. When I was drinking my most was when I was a city broker. I'd drink every day and then socialise with clients and evening drinking was just so normal and, essentially, if you weren't drinking, you'd be perceived to be boring. In the case of women, if you're not drinking, people just assume that you're pregnant. It can't possibly be because you're busy or focused or ambitious. It's turned into being a negative thing and, by the way, I was never berating bias or anything, but essentially there's a negative connotation that comes with not drinking and I actually think that due to the name, non-alcoholic mocktails sound like a mockery. Now, why would anybody go to a bar and order something non-anything? If anything, you want to have a good time, so I just thought that, following in the footsteps of an already popular word with positive life decisions: clean eating, clean living, having a clean mind, a clean body, a clean spirit. I think we I found it interesting to try and associate the already popular word, which of course we're not looking to claim came from us, but really move it into alcohol and create a positive head space within a negative industry, I'd love to talk a bit more about the word 'clean' and your use of it within the branding, because my understanding is that it's got quite negative connotations in some health circles and that it's demonising certain foods which are fine in moderation. So, tell me a bit more about why you decided to go for that particular word in your in your branding. Spencer: Well, I just I simply – respectfully, of course – just disagree with that. I think the word 'clean' is a great word. And it does exactly what it says on the tin. And I believe that, if anything, it's really attractive and makes our proposition incredibly clear. Whether or not it's detrimental in other markets – I can't speak for those markets. I look after myself. I believe that I have a good, well balanced diet and that I'm healthy. And I often eat things that I'm sure are terrible for you. Well, living a balanced life is what we're all about. We are not anti-alcohol in any way. In fact, we encourage people to live life to the fullest and have an amazing time. We also, particularly in these times, in a post-Covid world, are about to become very vocal about the importance of moderation. Drinking clean should play a part in your alcohol regime. I think full strength alcohol will one day be a thing of the past. I'm not saying that alcohol will be abolished, and people won't drink alcohol. There will always be room for alcohol. But inherently alcohol when, again, we're not waving some big flag that alcohol is bad for you. But full strength alcohol certainly has done a number on me over the years, and I'm sure anybody can attest to the fact that you very rarely, or in fact, I'm pretty sure nobody has ever woken up saying, ‘I wish I drank more alcohol'. It's usually the other way around. Just my general decision-making process, being drunk is usually quite unhelpful. I'm sure a lot of people would agree! I'd love to move into your going into investing. This is probably something that people don't really know about you, as an angel investor. How long have you been an angel investor? What got you interested in it? Spencer: I've always been interested in other people and other founders and businesses. I'm kind of led – obviously being a founder myself – I'm quite a founder-driven investor. If I care an awful lot about team and I'm the founder and the vision, then in my opinion, there are chances of success, but that's often just a kind of gut feel. Or when you talk to someone, you evaluate in your own mind whether or not you believe that this person can achieve the things that they say they can achieve. I am one for a forecast, obviously. But I do think that forecasts change. If the first domino doesn't go the way you want it to go, then presumably, your model – I'm talking really early stage now – obviously, now we create a final financial model for CleanCo and the Americas. And as an example, we do it in such a way that we're pretty confident that we'll be within 2 per cent of our financial model. But at really early stage, you don't know if you're going to sell 1,000 bottles on day one or 10 bottles on day one. It's really hard to gauge where you're heading with stuff. Take Halen as an example, the mental health app. It trains your mental resilience. It's trying to destigmatise an industry which is mental health. Joe Bates is a fantastic character founder. You should interview him, if you don't mind me saying. You get a real kick out of it – he has the most wonderful story. He's an incredibly down to earth and sensitive individual who's gone through an awful lot but remains incredibly strong. And I think that's the kind of whole Halen idea. Halen is old English for hero. And it's a Halen was someone who conquers adversity. Back to this adversity point that we're all facing in some way or another at the moment. And it's just a really interesting and exciting idea. But I knew that I was going to invest in Joe before he had a business plan. We were on a bus to Twickenham, I think, with Jodie Kidd and his partner who are friends of ours. Vogue [Spencer's wife] and Jodie are friends and I had not met Joe. We were sat on the bus. And he was to ask him about clean, and this is about a year and a half ago, so we were far less developed than we are now. I was giving him my plans and projections and what I think was possible, and he shared the idea that was Halen with me. And immediately I thought, ‘Well, how brilliant'. He was describing it as the Peloton of mental health. I just thought it was fascinating. So then and there, I decided that we'd get involved in that. That can be seen as shooting from the hip and unlikely to ever hit any home runs. But I was in Halen at the very start, from the ground level. Almost any success that it experiences is good news for my investment. So I quite like really early stage stuff, albeit incredibly risky. And if you are listening to this, and I'm a seasoned expert, but just do be very aware that when making any kind of investment, there's a good chance you might lose money. Absolutely. The companies that you're invested in, as again mentioned in the intro quite closely linked, there is very much health and wellness and fitness. What do you look for in a company that you may be considering investing in? Spencer: Experiencing the team. It's my personal belief that no one individual has the answers to anything. And regardless of the life that you've lived, and the experience that you have, surrounding yourself with people who have more experience in the sector that you're looking to crack is always a good idea. Spare no expense to get the best people behind you. Incentivise them well, make sure that everybody is happy within the team and that they are delighted to show up to work every day and that they're incentivised to carry out the dream and the vision. If I can feel that from another team, then that's a good starting point. I've spent many years working in jobs that I really don't like, and you hear about all the time that people do things that they don't enjoy and live from paycheck to paycheck. That's fine, though. Everybody's different and everybody has different dreams and goals. For me, hopefully succeeding and being at the forefront of something is all about it being exciting. I struggle to sleep at night sometimes, because I'm so excited for the following day to arrive so that I can get back into what I was doing the day before at work – that for me is awesome. I'm very fortunate to be surrounded by others who share that vision. For us, it's like we're constantly smashing down walls, we're constantly feeling like we're kind of flying. That's the feeling that I want to harness. I felt that with Joe, and I love this team, I felt that with Munchfit with Angus, and I use the products obviously as well if you use something and it's fantastic, then good. There has to be a reason I've done all this rubbish television, right? If I can spread the word on an incredible product at an early stage and get other people to try it then perhaps that, in a strange roundabout way, is the value I can add to an early stage business having done the rubbish TV. And the last question I want to ask you is kind of twofold. Over the course of pandemic, unfortunately, we've seen a lot of redundancies. But we've also seen the number of people starting their own businesses absolutely skyrocket. From a business owner's point of view, and an investor's point of view: What businesses do you think are in need just now, what problems need to be solved? And couple of quick tips on how business owners can get started because it can seem so overwhelming, and there's so much information out there. Spencer: Not having to leave your house and anything that delivers to your house, obviously, is a great business model at the moment. At one point, we were uncertain as to what would happen with retailers, right at the very beginning of the first pandemic. We were unaware if the Co-op was going to stay open. All of a sudden, you're thinking about how we are going to eat, like, we weren't sure if Deliveroo would be operating or whatever. Anything that delivers things straight to your door is obviously great. Sorry, you kind of put me on the spot with that one. We've got the great Justin Hicklin, the chairman of CleanCo, here as well. What problems needs sorting, Justin? What do you think? Justin: Day-to-day? Spencer: Yeah, just day-to-day in the UK. Justin: People turning up and sorting out computers within half an hour. Spencer: There you go – computers. Justin is of a different age. Justin: I think all the pain points in life ultimately will have some sort of instant response to it. So, instant plumbing you can have, because people are not technically minded. Spencer: Electricians – it would be good if an electrician could be on call at all times. Justin: Premium plumbing service, premium computer services. If you've got a deadline and your computer crashes, you want somebody in half an hour and you're going to pay £50 to do it. Is that [already] available? If the answer is no, then that's an opportunity. Spencer: Excellent. Let's get the trademark registration on the line. Justin: We're going to call it Key. Spencer: Yes, Key. Lovely. Spencer: Well, I need anything that simplifies, essentially. Anything that makes life easier is popular, right? People like shortcuts to things. Justin: Actually, that's a really good idea, we should do that. Spencer: Okay, Justin. Well, why don't we talk about it after the pod? And if you're thinking about starting a business, or I mean, it's going to be ever slightly boring, because I feel like I might have already covered it, but surround yourself with excellent people don't cut corners initially, raise more money than you think you might need. Don't be too bullish on what you own at the very beginning. If the right person comes along, and the deal feels good, you should do it. Owning 100 per cent of nothing is nothing and owning a chunk of something valuable is valuable. So, I think you got a lot of people – who pitch to me, anyway – who have these wild views of where they're going to be in a few years, and they want to own 90 per cent of it. This is the ‘they'll sell you this for this huge number', and you just go, ‘But without key individuals, you'll get it nowhere near where you think you're going to get it.' So, 'share the love' is what I'm trying to say. And just be intelligent with the raise. I remember, right at the very beginning, I had very little idea of how to structure and start a business, I'd like to think I do now. And essentially, we needed maybe 12 or 13 times more money than I thought we might need. I was sitting with a really interesting and eccentric gentleman who's built businesses before and it was very funny. He asked me how much money I thought we'd need to get CleanCo off the ground. I was talking in the tens of thousands. I thought we needed £60,000, maybe £100,000. I was thinking about things on how we get it going. And then how do we build from a small start, and I'll always remember it, he said, ‘Mate, you need about £3m.' And I was like, ‘What?' And then you kind of learn, and we raised a bit less than that on our first round, we raised £2.1m. But then quickly, at the end of the first year, raised another £7m and, in fact, next week our opening round to raise three times that on top of it. We're moving incredibly quickly. To get something going, particularly in a market that doesn't really exist, churns cash like you wouldn't believe. See business as kind of like going to war: try not to go underfunded and under flanked. You need plenty of good company and plenty of cash. Nice. Just quickly, you've talked about really liking exciting businesses, but getting wild propositions. Spencer: I was guilty of it as well. I think you get so wound up in your own head that your idea is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'm not saying that good entrepreneurs shouldn't overvalue their dreams, because it's [a case of] how do you get there. If you start tiny, it's very difficult to grow it into something really substantial. Dream big, for sure. But, if you're unable to back up a really ‘hockey stick' kind of aggressive forecast... Had I gone into fundraising meetings, without some of my partners at the very beginning, essentially on hot air, and they say ‘Oh, well, how do you think you're going to achieve this level of turnover in 2023', and you haven't got a really detailed, concise answer that fits the bill, you're never going to raise any money. You just need to be quite careful. I was looking to value CleanCo a lot higher than we ended up going to market with at the beginning, because I felt like this doesn't exist. We were going to be the best in the world, we're going to be the biggest no-and-low-drinks company on the planet. You just have to just calm down slightly and replace enthusiasm with projections that make sense to good people. I think there's a lot of noise out there in the market. Everyone thinks that they're the best and everyone thinks that their idea's going to change the world. It's just a question, I suppose, of judging one's character when you're talking to somebody and understanding what you think to be relevant and truthful. Anna: Well, that's a great place to wrap up. So, thank you for coming on the podcast, Spencer. Spencer: It was a great pleasure. Thanks very much for having me. You can find out more about CleanCo at clean.co. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more on branding and valuing your business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lowercase) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.  

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Lady Chanelle McCoy – entrepreneur and former Dragon on Dragon's Den Ireland. We talk about her time on the show and the barriers to growth for the CBD industry. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more podcasts featuring Dragon's from the UK version of Dragon's Den. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Chanelle McCoy's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Lady Chanelle McCoy, entrepreneur and former Dragon on Dragon's Den Ireland. Born in Galway, she co-founded Chanelle Medical, part of Chanelle Pharma, which was founded by her father. In 2015, Lady McCoy and business partner Caroline Glynn set up Chanelle McCoy Health, an R&D led pharmaceutical company. From that came cannabidiol (CBD) range, Pureis CBD. She was recently ranked no 23 in the ‘50 incredible people shaping modern Ireland'. She was awarded the All-Ireland Business Champion Award 2018 for her outstanding achievements in business leadership. We'll be talking about her time on Dragon's Den Ireland and the barriers to growth facing the CBD industry. Anna: Hi, Chanelle, how are you doing? Chanelle: Good. Anna, how are you? Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited about our chat. Anna:Oh, of course, of course. So, listeners and viewers might not recognise you straight away. But they might have seen you before on the Irish version of Dragon's Den. Chanelle: Yeah, that's right. I'm Irish, home grown – from the west of Ireland. I've spent over 25 years in the pharmaceutical industry. I'm very lucky to get the opportunity to do Dragon's Den, the Irish version. Dragon's Den is owned by Sony Music, and they franchise that out to 27 countries around the world. When I did Dragon's Den, when I started the first year, Ireland was the first country to have three female dragons and two male dragons. It was a fantastic experience to do it. I definitely made a few investments. Yeah, so it was great. Smashing. So, based on your time in there, what would you say are the biggest differences between the Irish version and the UK version? I've only seen a few clips of the Irish version, but for want of a better word, it seems nicer – less cut-throat, I suppose.  Chanelle: I mean, maybe that's more of a cultural thing as us Irish are quite warm and friendly, maybe. But no, I think that the fact that Sony Music are the owners, and it's a franchise, that the setting was very much the same, was very like this, the way we sit, and the seats and, and the whole kind of procedure of it as well. It is your own money that you're investing, that you have to bring that to the table, even though the cash sitting beside you is actually not real. We would record about seven pitches in a day. So you literally would have one after another, some of the pitches would go on for about an hour and a half, even though you only see maybe 15-20 minutes on the TV when it's edited down. The reality is you get no prior warning or visibility of the pitch that's coming into the den. So you're in between all this, like when the seven pitches are going on, in between that you leave the room, you go back backstage kind of thing. You wait until the room is set up, you come back onto your chair, the product is hidden, you've got no phone, you can't Google anything. And it's literally when that entrepreneur walks out of the lift that you get to know about the products. So, that's why the pitches would go on for more like an hour and a half, because this is your money you're investing, and you have to make a decision right there and then, whether you're going to invest or not. I mean, obviously maybe some people feel Ireland, the Irish was a bit tamer than England, but there were certainly a few of the pitches that we gave them a hard time with! The fact that it's every pitch is brand new to you. Why do you think that is? Is it more of like a production thing and gets an authentic reaction from you? Chanelle: I think it's twofold. I think that the entrepreneur coming in there pitching, knows that they've got this really short window to sell their story and their business to you. Those entrepreneurs coming in, most of them really need that investment to survive, and if they don't get it, their company will close, they're running out of cash, so there's from their side of the fence, they know that we have had no prior knowledge of their of their company. So they've got to pitch really well, from our side as well. That's the whole thrill of Dragon's Den is that it's instinctive, you have to make a decision right there and then, so that builds to the excitement I'm kind of the drama of it or the appeal of it. Absolutely. I'd like to talk a bit more about your time in the pharmaceutical industry, because it's certainly been a year for pharmaceuticals, for CBD and for the wellness industry as well. And there's so much to unpick with that. Starting off with CBD, the market has grown exponentially, it absolutely exploded, and it's becoming more popular with consumers. But there are still barriers to growth. Say for example, search engines, in my understanding, are reluctant to rank products with CBD and anything related. Tell us more about the barriers to growth in that particular market. Chanelle: If we look at where we've come in the last six years. Today, the CBD food supplement market in the UK is valued at £450m. Now to put that into context, what does that mean – is that big, is that small? If you look at vitamin C in the UK today, that's £115m. Vitamin D today is £145m so CBD today and we have eight million people that take CBD today in the UK. CBD today at £450m totally eclipses vitamin C and vitamin D together. But the exciting thing is that £450m figure will grow to £1bn in the next three years. We are delighted that our product, it's called Pureis CBD, and we're on the market over a year now in the UK and we're in over 1000 retailers. We're the first CBD food supplement company to command the UK market that's backed by clinical studies. And we invested over a number of years, we invested over £1.5m in extensive safety clinical studies, because that is the requirement by the UK Food Standards Agency, the European Food Safety Authority, because they say CBD is a new molecule in your body. We didn't take it prior to 1997, they want all these safety studies done. So, we just embarked on, while adhering to the legislation. We are the first CBD food supplement company in the world to use FDA-registered raw material. And that might not mean a lot to the consumer walking in off the street, but it means a lot to the pharmacists and the doctors. Because the FDA are the strictest food and medicine sheriffs in the world. It was great that we worked with our raw material supplier, and we were able to get that certification on our raw material. What's happened in the CBD industry this week [week commencing April 19, 2021], which has been incredibly interesting to watch it evolve. The Food Standards Agency, which are basically the governing body that look after the safety of food supplements, they set a deadline for the CBD industry this week that any CBD food supplements that wants to stay on the market has got to submit a dossier into the Food Standards Agency with a full suite of clinical safety studies. And if you do that, you are allowed to remain on the market. If you don't do that, you will be pulled off the market. And the Food Standards Agency this week published a list of the companies that are allowed remain on the market. There are only three brands on that list, and we are the first brand on that list. We are officially in full assessment with the Food Standards Agency, we're on that list, which is very exciting. Anna: How many were there to begin with? Chanelle: About 800. What will happen, as the weeks go on, there will be more companies added to that list. But if you're not on the list by June, you're off the market. But this is a very positive move. The UK Government trying to bring what is an unregulated CBD market into a regulated market, because this is all about consumer safety at the end of the day. And the issue with CBD is there are a lot of rogue traders and cowboys out there. That was validated by a paper that was published last year where a number of professors got together, they tested over 30 products that are on the market. The alarming results of that paper is that 55 per cent of products on the market today have illegal levels of THC. And THC is a psychoactive addictive part of the cannabis plant that you don't want in a food supplement. It's fine in the medicine space when it's released by a doctor. And also, of those products, 34 per cent of them have lower levels of CBD than advertised on the label. There's a huge issue with misleading the consumer and this is why the legislation has come in, because they want to clean up the market. So what you'll see over the next few months is you will see a lot of CBD brands will be pulled off the market, the market will consolidate and what will be left on the market will be very safe products that are backed by clinical studies. This will help demystify CBD and give us the really good reputation that it should have because it is not psychoactive, you do not get a high from CBD. CBD is not addictive. It's just got all the good healing properties. So that's in terms of a kind the market and where we are and how it's going to grow and with the legislation. What is really hampering the CBD industry at the moment and is really going to affect the potential growth and job opportunities in the UK, is we still have banks, financial services and payment gateways that will not trade with CBD companies. They treat us like we're in the porn industry, they treat us like we're illegal, so we can't open a bank account in the UK. We're dealing with lots of payment providers like Stripe, the two Irish boys, we tell them all about our clinical studies, we are fully ethical, we are now on the approved Government list. Computer says no, they will not support our business. You then go to the likes of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and you say well, we want to do some digital advertising and we want to run social media campaigns with our products. We have clinical studies here, we are very ethical. Again, computer says no, we don't deal with CBD companies. I think these types of institutions and these companies really need to wake up. They need to take their blinkers off and they need to think, ‘Okay, let's assess each CBD company as they approach us. Why don't we trade with those companies that are on the Food Standard Agency ‘Publish' list, because we know that they are ethical, they're safe. They've done their studies.' The London Stock Exchange has floated three companies recently, three CBD companies, one of them is the one that David Beckham's involved in. If the LSE is engaging and trading with CBD companies, well why won't other companies? What is the critical issue now is the Home Office. Okay, so the Home Office in the UK is the Government arm that is responsible for policing narcotics and drugs here – and what's been imported. Our raw material is manufactured in the United States. As I said, it's FDA registered, so it's really high quality. We are synthetically derived, so we are not taken from the plant. We have mimicked the DNA the plant, so it is not possible to have any THC in our products because we are synthetic. And the Home Office have said to us – now, this is not us, this is with every CBD company: No, you are not allowed to import your raw material into the UK. And because we bring our raw material into the UK, and then we get our products manufactured, our finished product manufactured in the UK. They say no, because your product might have THC. So we went to four labs that the Home Office use, these are independent Government approved laboratories, we got our raw material tested, we gave them the certificates, plus all our data from the FDA and said, ‘We don't have THC. We're synthetic, it's not possible.' And again, they're like, ‘Computer says no, sorry.'  What's going to happen now is you're going to see a lot of people like us leaving the UK. We get our product manufactured in the UK, we had planned with the manufacturing company we work with, that they were going to create 70 more jobs between now and the end of the year, because now we are launching a lot of different markets outside Europe and Ukraine and Russia and China. And we need lots of product manufactured. Those 70 jobs now will not be created in the UK because we've got to go to Germany and Ireland to set up, to find a new manufacturing partner and set up our production there. That's happening now, right through the CBD industry, where there will be huge job losses. They are totally suffocating the growth of what will be a huge market – not just for food supplements, but for the pharmaceutical industry as well. So, you spoke a bit earlier about the difficulties and the resistance to the CBD market, especially in the UK. Of course, we all know that, especially since the transition period ended Brexit has caused some troubles as well, it'll be great to hear from somebody who is a major trading partner of the UK. So as a business based in Ireland, how has your trading relationship with the UK been affected by Brexit? Chanelle: I mean, it's very difficult now. And we are trading both ways, we are registered as an Irish company. And we are now registered as an English company. We get our manufacturing done in the UK of our finished product. But now, because of Brexit, we will look to have a second manufacturing site as well set up. Because when we hopefully get our European license receipt for our products, for Pureis, we will have a lot of challenges having the product manufactured in the UK, and then shipping it to the likes of Germany and France, because customs, tariffs, duty, is crippling.  When we contact that customs and it's like, ‘Well look, you can get your customer to pay it, and then your customer in Germany can claim it back.' It is it is annoying for a customer to have to do that. And if they have an alternative to trade with somebody that's in a European country over you, they will do that, because they don't have that administration hassle when they're dealing with somebody else. It is very unfortunate that there is not a better trade deal between the UK and Europe. Also then bringing product in from Ireland into the UK, is very difficult. So what it has forced companies like myself to do is that when you're trading in Europe, you need to have a base in Europe. You need to move your manufacturing from the UK and position it in Europe, that is really the only way. When you're trading in the UK, what you need to do is set up a manufacturing facility in the UK to service your UK customers. That is a pity, because it has incurred a lot of costs for us we're trying to set up work with new partners, qualify them as a manufacturer for our product in Europe and also what it does is we now, for our European customers, we are now taking all our production out of the UK and basing it in Europe. The UK have lost out a lot. But no matter what way you look at it, upside down, inside out, that is really the only way because at the end of the day, this is about servicing your customer. It's about being easy to deal with in the eyes of your customer. And it's about not incurring costs in terms of extra customs and duty and taxes and all of that. So that's really the way we've navigated it, but I think if the UK had the chance again to vote to leave Europe, I certainly don't think they would. I've spoken to so many UK entrepreneurs, Irish entrepreneurs and our leaders, and they tell you that. Anna: So it wouldn't be the case where the UK is a significant enough market where the costs would be worth it on balance. Chanelle: I mean, what it just means now is that, if you want to trade with the UK, you want to supply product into the UK, you're better off to source it within the UK. And the UK might think, well, that's a good thing, because we're bringing more employment and more opportunity into the UK, because we're forcing people to set up to partner with manufacturers in the UK. But actually, your loss is much bigger, because Europe is much bigger geographically. And what you're missing out on, is companies like me, who want to service 28 countries in Europe, from a manufacturing facility in the UK, and we can't do it. We've spoken a little bit about your husband, AP McCoy. I noticed that in quite a lot of the bios and the introductions I read about yourself, that he's mentioned within that bio and is quite a significant part of it. And I wondered how that affects you. As you're a self-named brand, do you feel that your husband's presence and career kind of helps boost it? Or do you feel that you can't exist in your own right? Chanelle: I'm incredibly proud of AP and to go through his career, and to be the most successful winning jockey, and to be champion jockey for 20 years, and winning the BBC Sports Personality of the Year and be knighted by the Queen – it's a great legacy. It's a great achievement within what he has done. And he's been incredibly impactful to me. As I went along in my career, I was lucky – I met him when I was 19. I'm 44 now. We've done this journey together, where I've worked for my family business, while he was scaling the heights in his career. I suppose it was a great outlet for me, because, I had to work really hard, it wasn't like that I kind of floated through my job and I dipped out to go racing every week, it wasn't that case. I was very mindful of the fact that during that period, in our 20s and early 30s, that it was all about AP. Every time I went to the races, or you're out to dinner with people, everybody wants to talk about him. And that's okay, because it's incredibly dangerous what he does, it's very interesting when you get under the hood of like, the diet and the people he rides for, and all of that. I was very happy to go along, for like, 15-20 years, where people would always ask me about him. But I think, what was really where I benefited hugely, and it goes back to the environment you live in, you work in. His dedication, his will to win, his absolute resilience, definitely rubbed off on me and shaped my culture, shaped my values. He motivated me. That's why in the workplace, it's so important, as a leader, as a manager, that you are creating this environment, where you are inspiring, you're positive, you're giving people that self-belief because your behaviour as a leader totally rubs off on the people around you, and will become their behaviour – they will emulate that. He was a fantastic source of inspiration for me, because his behaviour kind of became my behaviour in the end. It was only really, when he stopped riding in 2015 and I started to do Dragon's Den, that people used to say to me, ‘You're on Dragon's Den, Chanelle? I mean, I didn't even know you had a job. I've seen you for years at the races.' And I'm like, ‘Yeah, yeah. I'm in pharmaceuticals, have been in here for 15 years.' So suddenly people started to say to me, ‘Oh, you're not just AP's wife then?' ‘No, no – I'm a human in my own right.'   As AP said to me, ‘Chanelle, it's your time to shine'. I've been in his shadow, very happily in his shadow and supporting him, so he's incredibly supportive when I did Dragon's Den, and now with my own business, and trailblazing in the CBD industry, because we're the first with our clinical studies. We're the first to get on this list, the Government list that was published this week. He's very supportive and very proud. He's been a massive help to me over the years and has definitely been the driving force. Anna: Well, that seems like a good place to wrap up. Thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast, Chanelle – it's been wonderful. Chanelle: Brilliant. Thanks for having me, Anna. It was really enjoyable. You can find out more about Lady Chanelle McCoy at chanellemccoyhealth.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more podcasts featuring Dragons from the UK version of Dragon's Den. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts, follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lowercase) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Mark Wright – entrepreneur, TV personality and winner of The Apprentice in 2014.  We talk about work-life balance and maintaining a strong online presence for your business post lockdown. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on the pros and cons of business education. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Mark Wright's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Mark Wright – entrepreneur, TV personality and winner of The Apprentice in 2014. Born in Armidale, Australia, Mark’s entrepreneurial family inspired him to go into business himself. He was backpacking when, with £172 in the bank, he decided to get to an English-speaking country to start earning. After coming to the UK, he found a job selling digital advertising services. Unfortunately, he was unable to secure a bank loan to start a digital marketing agency of his own, so a friend suggested he entered The Apprentice instead. Since winning the show, he’s launched five businesses and is the only winner to turn over in excess of £1m within one year. We’ll be talking about stress management and maintaining a strong online business presence post lockdown. Anna: Hi, Mark. Mark: Hey, how are you? Anna: Yeah, I'm really good, thank you. How are you? Mark: I'm really good. Thank you so much for having me today. I really appreciate it. Anna: Of course, of course. How is it down where you are? Mark: Listen, it's pretty good. We're pretty lucky considering everything that's going on in the world. I mean, not compared to my family in Australia. They think we're like aliens over here in the UK. Anna: Oh, I know. I’ve got a lot of family in Brisbane and they were just going about like everything's normal and I'm just going, ‘I’ve forgotten how that how that functions.’   Mark: I'm so jealous. People always say to me, ‘Why are you living over here? I've always had a good answer, but I'm not so sure right now! Speaking of you coming over here, there's a little bit I wanted to know. In the intro, we've talked a bit about you backpacking and you coming to the UK to start work. I know that this backpacking adventure has been pivotal to where you are now. But I'm wondering, what was the intention of it when you set out? Was it part of your broader plan to become a business owner? Mark: Well, it's a bit of a sad story really. I was dating a girl in Australia, and I had sort of found my passion for digital marketing, had my self-discovery of what I was going to do in life. And then I got my heart broken. I decided the best revenge was to go out and get out in the world. I got my backpack, packed it up with like three pairs of jeans, a couple of shirts, and off I went around the UK and around Europe, as a backpacker. And it started off as a well-intentioned holiday, with the view of being a tour guide, having some fun, seeing the world, seeing some different cultures. I loved it. I visited London, I fell in love with London, I love the UK. As I continued my travels, and started to run out of money, I decided I loved London, so why not go back there? I felt pulled, it had some good energy. I'm a big believer in getting those feelings. The best book I've ever read in my life in my career is called The Alchemist by Pablo Coelho. And there's a big thing, three set themes throughout the book, which is follow the omens. If you feel something, if you feel a pull towards something, if you get energy towards something, just go with it. You technically might not know the answers at the time but if you go with it, go with the vibes and you never know what's going to happen. And as they say, the rest is history. I got here. I was living in a hostel, a backpacking hostel, I had no money, I started door knocking for jobs, I got a job, worked my way up in the digital marketing community, thought I could do it better and took my idea on The Apprentice – and one thing just led to the next. I sit here today, and all these amazing things have happened. It kind of just feels like the click of the fingers or a blink of the eye. I'm Lord Sugar's business partner and I own all these companies. It's hard work, having goals, and almost it was preordained to a certain respect. Anna: You've talked about being a real goal setter, knowing where you're going to be 5-10 years’ time, but that seemed like quite a spontaneous move. Mark: Yeah, I think, how they say the biggest things happen outside your comfort zone? I think the biggest killer of people's success is comfort, staying in their mediocrity, getting comfortable doing things that don't necessarily challenge them, but make sure they stay safe. It's really easy in our society today. Particularly, what, in Australia, where I come from and in the UK and America, it's really easy to stay comfortable in the middle part of society. Every time I've gained any success in life, whether that's leaving Australia with no money and backpacking, giving up my job and my flat to go on The Apprentice, taking loans to start companies, whatever it might have been. Every time I've achieved something in my life, it's been from pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Just reflecting on that, Steve Jobs, who's the photo behind me, who I am in love with, basically. He always said you can – it's easier to connect the dots looking backwards and it's so true in my life, when I look back at any success I've had, yes, it's from setting goals and knowing where I want to be in life and focusing on who I want to be and what I want out of life, but also pushing myself to do things that I’m not necessarily comfortable with. With your jumping in and doing things attitude, where do you stand on things like MBAs and business education qualifications? What role could be play in somebody becoming an entrepreneur? Mark: It's an interesting question. I would much prefer the people I employee to have MBAs and the infrastructure and theory of growing and scaling and managing a business. As an entrepreneur, what I've found is that it's more the risk-taking the big-thinking and the strategy of the company that I'm responsible for. The funny thing is, most of the great entrepreneurs haven't written courses, they haven't written MBAs, and you can't teach what it takes to be a great entrepreneur, because a lot of it is instinct. A lot of it is huge, unsustainable risk-taking that wouldn't make sense if you saw it written in a course. I've never been to university, I don't have any formal education or degrees, or any of that sort of stuff. Listen, I haven't done it, but that's not to say that it doesn't work. I think knowledge is power and information is really key to success. Now, a lot of people do have degrees and have been successful, a lot of people don't, it's more just what's inside you as an entrepreneur: are you driven? Can you work consistently? Are you prepared to take big risks? Do you understand the industry or the business that you're in? That's the key – doesn't matter about what degree you've got. You can have a degree, you cannot have a degree, that's not a dictator of success. What is, is are you an expert in what your field is. If you are an expert, and you've got good work ethic, and you will stay in your industry long enough, you will eventually be successful. Great. You've said in the past that it's your bullish attitude that helped you get through The Apprentice. I wonder how your level of bullishness was at the beginning when you applied versus at the end of the show. Mark: I've always had a healthy distribution of confidence, I would say and that confidence, some would describe as arrogance. I would say healthy confidence has given me a bullish strength and approach in business generally, throughout my whole career, whether it's been in interviews, on The Apprentice, in business deals – and that confidence in either negotiating a deal, winning The Apprentice, is so powerful. I believe the key to higher performance is high self-confidence, high self- belief. Before you start working on other things, you need to really work within yourself to be confident. If you believe in yourself, and what you're selling and what you're doing, other people will buy into that, whether that's your employees on the journey, whether that's a banker to give you a loan, whatever it might be, that self-confidence is so important. I think I carried this air of confidence in from day one of The Apprentice through to the final and Lord Sugar and the other judges could sense it and I think also the other candidates could sense that and it's a pretty powerful tool in The Apprentice, but in business as well. And in your profile, when the series was broadcast, and under ‘what are your worst business skills?’ it says, ‘I have no bad business skills’. Would you see those still true now, with hindsight? Mark: Haha, you've really done your research. I mean, you do say some things on there that you look back and you get a bit of a tingle of embarrassment because you say some crazy stuff to be entertaining on the show. But, do I have any bad business skills? Listen, there's always things I can improve on. But I would say my gift in life is business. I'm passionate about business. I love business. I've studied every facet of it from small, medium, large, great entrepreneurs of all time. Listen, some people can play a musical instrument like you've never heard, some people can run 100 metres in ten seconds and under. My gift that I got was being brilliant at business. And that's my thing. I'd like to say I have no bad attributes – I'm sure other people would challenge that, but it's the thing I love in life. And I believe as well that you took forward this absolute commitment to business, to your business and to creating it and making it a success. But it reached a point where you were extremely stressed, burnt out, even to the point where one of the Lord Sugar’s aides approached you and said, ‘When's the last time you took a break, went to the gym. Tell us about getting to that point and how you felt. Mark: Listen, I think when you create a start-up business, I think the start-up journey is the hardest area of business. I own businesses at all different levels of turnover size, staff numbers and investment levels. For me, the hardest journey was that ‘zero’, starting a company, registering at Companies House, and going from zero to whatever. It's so tough. In the first two years of my business, I pretty much didn't have a day off. I wasn't sleeping enough, I wasn't eating well, I was drinking too much. It was because the work that was required in terms of stress levels, hours and just general demand of creating systems and processes in the business, signing up customers, keeping those customers happy, employing staff, getting equipment, getting investment. It was a very hard process. I gave up my life for the first three to four years for the business. The first two I wasn’t in existence to people who knew me. And I was working every hour that God gave, and it was tough. It was really tough. It wasn't good for my health. It wasn't good for my relationships. We talk a lot about work life balance, okay? You can love business, you can love what you do. But you do need to find time. It’s no good – as Lord Sugar's advisor told me – being the richest guy in the graveyard, and just dropping dead at work one day. You need to be able to create a life that you can live healthily. That was that was hard-hitting advice from a billionaire’s advisor. They’re saying that so it must be true, I thought. So, I've made more time to have a bit of balance in my life, so that the success is sustainable. Anna: I suppose it can be a cultural thing, especially in the UK. I mean, there's this real pressure from various different places, very much social media included in that, you need to keep going, keep hustling all the time. So I'd imagine that's not exactly helpful. Mark: You're right, we live in a culture of Instagram, of social media, where you go on there and you hear that if you work 100 hours a week, that's the way to get a million pounds and all of this stuff. A lot of the people that are saying this don't have a million pounds, point 1. Point 2 is you can work 100-hour weeks, but for how long can you do that? Oh, and Sugar is very proud of telling people that he is a multi-billionaire who is only at work Monday to Friday. He's never worked a weekend in his 50-year career. And I think that is really powerful because he's got the proof of the pudding. He is successful, he is famous, he is wealthy, but he has work life balance. And he'll tell anyone who listens. ‘I don't work weekends, I work Monday to Friday, and I work harder than anyone Monday to Friday.’ In my head, I know on Friday evening, as I'm driving home, that is it, my brain switches off, I spend time with my wife and my family. Then on Monday morning, I'm back to it. I think giving yourself in your brain that time to recharge, to relax, to create ideas, but also to spend time with your loved ones and just switch off. Burnout is a is a real thing. It's the same with a light – if you leave it on all the time, it'll eventually burn out. Your mind, your brain and your body are exactly the same. Sleep debt and all of those things are real, legitimate causes for business owners not making it. One of the things that we've noticed in this lockdown, and one of the things that's been key to many small business owners – often by necessity – is that when their physical buildings have closed, they've really amped up their digital marketing and their online presence. But now, as trading restrictions are beginning to ease, they're moving back into their bricks and mortar businesses. How would you recommend that they keep up that momentum of their online presence with their existing resources as they move back to bricks and mortar? Mark: Well, there's been a lot of good lessons in the pandemic, and I'm speaking purely from a business perspective. On the health side of it, it's been terrible, there's no doubt about that. But from a business perspective, it has shown us the good industries, the good businesses. It has also shown us areas where we can improve our business. It’s because a business that is reliant on a singular location that cannot trade because of something like a health pandemic, probably isn't a great business, so we need to be online.   Yes, having a shop and a store is a great customer experience, and something that we should never lose. But we need to have a blend of both. And when, if you've got good systems and processes, you can have the best of both worlds: a customer in-store experience, a high street experience, and also an online 24 hours, seven days a week business. You should actually be more profitable and more dependent with your business. But it comes back to systems and processes. The problem with online is that it never switches off. And that means as human beings where we can go in and check out an ecommerce store 24/7, we can check the Google Ads 24/7 and all of this stuff, but you've got to have people, processes and systems so that you still work normal hours. Anna: Absolutely. What kind of things do you have in mind? What kind of systems? Mark: I use tools for social media posts, scheduled tools, I use software to check all my marketing campaigns, suggest changes and do low-level stuff automatically. All my email marketing campaigns for my econ businesses are done weeks in advance, and it's all just scheduled into software. So rather than sitting there at eight o'clock, ten o'clock, nine o'clock on a Saturday or a Sunday, it's all done on the Monday ready for the Saturday. It's just using tools and technology to make sure that we're actually working. I hate this phrase, but I'm going to use it now: working smarter, not harder. Just making sure that we're doing stuff, just not working 24 hours a day because the internet allows us to. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we before we go? Absolutely not. I think it was it's great that there's podcasts like this. All I would say, to any business people out there that are listening to this is get yourself a mentor. If I've learned anything through my process of business, it is surrounding myself with great businesspeople that has enabled my success. Deals and success falls off other successful people, but to knowledge falls off them. And generally, when a business owner or an entrepreneur is failing, it's not through a lack of resource or finances – it’s lack of knowledge. And it's podcasts like yours and having a good mentor that really help people get over the goal line. So yeah, that's really it. And I think it's going to be a good time ahead. Where would you recommend finding a mentor? Mark: Well, there's this amazing tool called LinkedIn. Anna: Ah, yes – I’m familiar! Mark: And what I recommend is a good mentor is someone that's been there, done that and bought the T-shirt. And I always recommend someone that's either business or industry specific. You can go on to their LinkedIn, follow them on social media, see where they're speaking next, where's their next event, where's their next conference and go there, track them down and ask them to coach you, mentor you, even if that's through giving them equity in your business or paying for their time. Knowledge really is the key to scaling up a successful business. And if you've got the right people at board level of your company, it's very hard for that company to fail. And it's been a big lesson for me on my journey, and I hope that helps other business owners as well. How much equity would you suggest? Mark: It depends how great the mentor is. I mean, I've got Alan Sugar, and I gave him 50 per cent. I mean, the most amount of equity you'd want to give any shareholder is probably 50 per cent, 49 per cent, and you probably want to come back from there. For someone that's just going to attend board meetings, you're probably looking at five per cent-ten per cent. If you're looking at someone significant, that's going to be, taking an active role, 30 per cent. But it depends on the size of your business and the size of their input as well. Anna: That sounds like a good place to wrap up, so I will leave it there. But thank you for coming on the podcast, Mark. It's been fab. Mark: Thank you so much for having me. You can find out more about Mark at climb-online.co.uk. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more on digital marketing and the pros and cons of business education. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lower case) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Paul Lindley – author, campaigner and founder of Ella's Kitchen.  We talk about relearning the valuable business skills you had as a toddler and why you should consider becoming B Corporation certified.  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on exit strategies and making your business greener. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Paul Lindley's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Paul Lindley, author, campaigner and founder of Ella’s Kitchen. He launched the company in 2006 after being dissatisfied with a lack of healthy, tasty and convenient food for children. He sold Ella’s Kitchen to Hain Celestial in 2013, stepping away from the business completely in 2018 to focus on his social campaigning. In the same year, he was appointed chair of the London Child Obesity Taskforce by Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan These days, Paul is the chair of Robert F Kennedy Human Rights UK and a trustee of Sesame Workshop, the creators of Sesame Street. He also sits on the board of social enterprise, Toast Ale.   We’ll be discussing what it takes to run an ethical business and how you can relearn the unexpected business skills you had as a toddler. Anna: Hi, Paul. Paul: Hi Anna, how are you? Anna: I’m alright, thank you. How are you? Paul: Good. I'm feeling I'm feeling quite positive. Actually. I had my Covid jab this morning. My arm’s sore, but it's an excuse to think positively about the future. Anna: Yeah, yeah. Paul: It is incredible what they've done. Over the last six months as a business or like the last year, but as a business, to take all that innovation through to get 25 million people within, what, 12 weeks? Anna: I know, I l know. Paul: It’s been an awful year, in so many ways. But you know, we've got a lot to look forward, we've got to pick on the things we've learned, we've got to celebrate some of the pivoting that businesses have done the innovation that's come around the resilience, the community that we've built over this time and sort of build back better, but what suffering we've had this last year. Okay, so let's just jump straight in. In your book, Little Wins, you talk about the business skills that we have as a toddler that we unlearn. So, what kind of business skills are you referring to? What kind of practical exercises can business owners do to relearn these skills? Paul: Thank you for coming in straight away with Little Wins – it's such a passion of mine. The book came out of my experience of building Ella’s Kitchen. Inside of me – in this grey haired 50- something-year-old – there's a little boy. I think that was the key within Ella’s Kitchen, that we had this childlike mindset of that we could do stuff, we could have an imagination and a free-thinking that would make me make the business work when everyone was saying that the odds are really stacked against you. So, I took that and I took the heart of our hero, our core consumer, and thought through the skills that toddlers have, and how we use them in our company. Then I took a step back and thought, ‘Well, everyone was a toddler.’ Everyone can unlock their personal potential as an adult or a business owner – not by learning new skills, but by relearning and rediscovering those old ones of imagination and free-thinking and self-confidence. And a whole nine of them that I put in my book. This is to simplify this complicated life that we've got to allow us to make decisions in business or in our personal lives, like toddlers do with much less information, and move forward with positivity and a ‘can do’ mindset. So really, it's about that idea that you can become the best person of the person you once were, the best version of a person that you want to work by having this type of mindset. You can bring that to your personal life, you can bring that to business. The sorts of things that I talk about are the fact that toddlers have such confidence, such creativity – they dive right into things and never give up, they get noticed. They're honest with each other, they show their feelings, they have fun, they involve others, all sorts of things that, to be honest, by the time we're all around four or five years old, we must think, ‘Life's great, I'm only four or five, and I've learned all these skills, I'm going to live to 85. What more is there to come?’ The truth is that whether asked how our society works, whether it's parenting or education, or the corporate system, narrows our vision, and it sort of asks us to conform. If you're a small business owner, if you're an entrepreneur, you want you and your team not to conform, you want you and your team to imagine things that could be possible, and to go and do them to have the wherewithal to do it to go and do them. It's really all about the mindset of the corporation, the culture, the mindset of the culture of the business. You as the business owner, you as the senior person in that accountancy firm, you've got the opportunity to set that. I think it's by setting up systems and processes and recruiting the right people that have the mindset so that you can be brave and curious – both of those things unnecessarily because what is true for any business, or any of us in this world right now: if we do nothing, we keep the status quo, we'll move backwards. The world is changing at such a rapid pace, we have to innovate, we have to try things that may or may not work. We've got to build the confidence and the bravery and the curiosity to experiment and find that way through because that gives us the edge. That's really cultural, I think. You can set your corporate reward system to set bonuses wholly on financial performance, wholly on growing five per cent from last year. We all know we've yet, well, maybe we should have set a five-year bonus that doesn't expect us to grow in any given year, because we're trying things that are going to really deliver in three-or-four-years’ time. We're happy to make mistakes and get it wrong. As long as we can iterate and we can learn, we can adapt, and we can build something from those trials and errors, then we have a better business over a five-year period. So how and I would advocate that we certainly didn't tell Ella’s Kitchen businesses I'm involved with now, though, is build a bonus scheme based on one year wholly on financial performance. Obviously, you need a successful sustainable business that makes profits and that interest should be tied to bonuses. But living the values of the reason why your company exists, I think, should be embedded within the way people are remunerated and motivated and rewarded for contributing to their company. Setting your values, for example, at Ella’s Kitchen, we had five. One of them was to be childlike. So that might be okay for a consumer brand that's got a kind of fun personality for the marketing people to deliver. But if you're the payroll person or the accounts receivable person, how do you interpret being childlike into your work? One of them one year brought ring and renamed the remittance advices to be ‘from my piggy bank to yours’. That was the habit, they reworded it, that was the small thing that they did. But it brought a smile to the person who's in the business that they were dealing with the parent and had to come from, and that person may have been a parent or may not may have talked to somebody that was a parent or may not. It was the way that, just a tiny little language change, we could get people talking about our business. And that was a real ‘thinking like a child’ aspect. That person got that part of their bonus based on that. So that's one thing that’s really around the culture and the systems that you set out.  Ultimately, you want to employ people with an open mindset who do believe in the reason you set up a business and believe that you can get there. Because if you're a small business, it's probably against the odds that you will get there, and unless you stack yourself with people who believe it and will go out of their way to do it because they motivate, you inspire them. They know what the mission of the business is, you know what the business plan is, what it takes to get there – and everyone works on that together to deliver and that's where this idea of thinking like a toddler can really be impactful. Right. So, I'm going to go from starting a business, right through to exit. One of the key decisions, if you're looking to exit, is who you're going to pass your business on to, and are they going to carry on as you would see fit. I guess with Ella's Kitchen, because your vision and your values are so deeply ingrained in the brand, how did you go about making the decision of finding the right successor for the business? Paul: Well, when you sell your business, it's hugely emotional. And it's very personal. So, my experience may be very different to others. Some people want to sell a business, walk away, don't really care what happens. They want the money in the bank, and they created something from nothing and that was their job. I named my business after my daughter. I have, as you said, very personally set the vision and the values of how that the first number of years went for Ella’s – it does matter to me still, what becomes of Ella’s and that it maintains those values. There are two things:  Who do you sell to? Who succeeds you as the chief executive? So, who do you sell to? I sort of thought of this as a horse race in a way and there were three jumps to get over and each of them was associated with the word ‘value’. The first jump to get over, and if a potential acquirer couldn't get over that we wouldn't talk to them, was values. Do they see the world in the same way as we see it? Will they support and protect the way we've seen the world and the way our business has been successful, because we've seen the world that way? Will they tinker with it? If they tinker with it, we’ll tell them now it’ll fail. And don't – let's stop the conversation. But if they do see the world in the same way, if they believe the why of why we set ours up and why it's successful, and they give us the confidence that they won't tinker with that, then we're over that first hump. The second is value – we've all worked really hard to create something of value, you need to pay as the price that that value should deliver – there's obviously an overlap between the two. If there's overlap, great, we can continue the race. If there isn't an overlap, we need to walk away because that's just not recognised. Then we get over that second hurdle. The final fence is really around added value. In my view, it's sort of what added value are they going to do to this business to make it better than we could do without them? Maybe they'll open up more markets, maybe they'll have their own factory, but we can be more efficient and better supply chains, lots of reasons why. We can start to get into the deal and the labels. We were very careful to go through that when we sold. Then it was okay – I stayed on board for another year, I ran that business, and Ella’s Kitchen for $300m business for a year, delivered what we promised and then wanted to stand back. And then it was, well, who is going to deliver and keep the heartbeat of this company going? I'm a big believer in promoting and rewarding from within a company with sort of developing talent and making people feel as though they can get to the top. We have some excellent leaders within the business. Third, the guy that took over had been in the business three or four years, was the sales director, seven years later is still the CEO, a guy called Mark Cuddigan. He is just awesome. He has the, you know, sometimes I joke that perhaps Mark is the best leader that Ella’s has had. But he has taken that business, keeping its heart, keeping its soul, keeping that mission and that vision as a feeling rather than something in the head and he delivered it with his own handprint with a team that has gone on and expanded. The value, the sort of impacts that the business has, both in terms of shareholder return and stakeholder return and delivering a mission to help children live better lives. I think you've got to do your homework for who that person is, if you care what happens next. I think it's absolutely based on values and how people see the world. And we looked for five leadership skills, really. I always do this with any sort of recruitment, no matter what the level. If they aspire to be a leader, if we want them to be able to inspire their team going forward. And those are about emotional maturity, because it is going to be a roller coaster ride. You've got to take the rough with the smooth and you've got to be mature about that. It's about a drive for improvement all the time, never been satisfied that where you are is where you're going to get to, driving your processes, your systems, your products, culture, everything forward all the time constantly. It's about effective communication. So many mistakes in business happen because we don't hear each other properly –and we don't take the time to talk to each other or listen to each other. That effective constant communication is absolutely vital. The final thing is that rather ability to see in the wider context of where our business sits in the industry, where the industry sits in society and what we can control and what we can't. That kind of leads to the fact that you don't have to actually win every battle, you want to win the war in the end if you achieve your vision. You can collaborate with your competitors in certain areas, you can do things together that will improve not only both of your businesses, but also the consumer or the client's life at the end of it by working together sometimes, or working with your suppliers or your customers. So, those are the five things and Mark excels at all of those. I would say the learning that I've seen from others, and which I was determined not to do, was my time was over. If I was going to stand back, I'm standing back. I'm there at his ear if he wants advice and he's counselled to device in the past in attendance tenders. But don't be a backseat driver – let them make the mistakes or the failures that they need to make to understand how they can get to success. Be a counsel. I think that the two most proud things I have about the Ella’s Kitchen experience happened after I ceased to be CEO. The first one is that it became a B Corporation. Mark and I worked with the shareholder and with the team to make sure that we’d qualify for that. I’m incredibly proud that Ella’s Kitchen was one of the first B Corporations in this country. I think the B Corp movement is an incredible movement to nudge forward the way we do business to a much better place. The second thing is, I think for the last five years, Ella’s Kitchen has been voted one of the UK’s Best Companies to Work For. And that's Mark, inspiring his team to really enjoy working there, really feel as though they're achieving something, being rewarded however which way that is for that contribution. We've talked a lot about inside the organisation and what's effective. And of course, you're an advocate of B Corp. A lot of small businesses today are wanting to show customers their ethics and their ethical credentials. How would you suggest small businesses go about proving how ethical they are? Paul: So what B corporations are, they're businesses that meet the highest standards of verified social and environmental performance. They set themselves up for public transparency and legal accountability to deliver on more than the purpose of making money. And they hold themselves accountable for that. What the process is, you have to do this survey, where it's really hard to pass, but you only need 40 per cent to pass. But it's hard to get to that point, since we've looked at all aspects of your business – governance, the supply chains, the people, finance, loads of things. You have to do things to make sure that you'll have a structurally sustainable business, then once you pass that you've got to go into your constitution of your company and change it effectively to say we're not just about shareholder return and maximising that, we're about stakeholder return and optimising that, we care about the environment and the communities that we draw teams from and we sell to. Each of those things are as important as the profit that we make. Think about it, the business that we operate is in the ecosystem of all sorts of other things that are happening in the world. You want a healthy interdependence between communities, the planet, and business and profit that works together. So I can give you statistics to show that B corporations perform better financially over the long term than non B corporations, I can show you that cost base is more efficient, because people stay longer because they see and believe in your mission and it’s verified, and you know where you're going. What it brings it validates your reason, your why, your mission – it tells your staff and your potential staff that you are committed to it and Ella’s Kitchen and some of the new businesses I'm involved with, we've had staff applying, team people applying to the roles because it's a B Corporation. It protects you versus your shareholders, if you like in that you can create more environmentally friendly packaging, but it costs a penny more, you can't be fired for by that because the environmental impact is as important to the profitability of the company. And you create you join this network of wonderful business leaders that really tried to use business as a force for good. I'm a huge advocate of that – it puts pressure on yourselves to live, to walk the walk of what you're talking. But it's ingrained and it helps you think through the social, the environmental and governance aspects to make your business not only the best in the world, but the best for the world as well. My hope is the future of business. And by looking at the first five years of B Corporation in this country, which we've just passed our fifth birthday, it's growing, growing like nowhere else in the world. And those businesses are performing better with more and more loyal and engaged staff. Anna: That's interesting, because I would have thought it's because consumers are becoming savvier, that it would be more of a draw for them. But I never thought that would attract employees who would be looking for the B Corp certificate. Paul: I would just say that back to – it’s people, again, consumers and employees are people wanting to find things that live what ethics and values they have in their head. If that's buying something because it's got a little knitted bauble on the top of the smoothie that going to get towards grannies versus one that isn't maybe if they employee wants to work for somebody that isn't just about making money for the shareholders, but it's also helping society where we've got a problem with loneliness with older people, that person's happy. They're just people an answer that I really think business. I don't think business is really about economics, although it has to make money. It's about psychology. It's about understanding why somebody is going to change their behaviour because you exist, and that behaviour is going to improve their lives, you're going to be able to make some sustainable returns out of it. And we all want to live in a better world because we feel really good when you create a business that does that every one of your team well, and the consumer will as well, because we're all just people. Anna: Well, I can't follow that, so I'll wrap up there. But thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast, Paul. It's been great. Paul: Absolutely welcome, Anna, and I’m delighted to share some things that I hope can help others. You can find out more about Paul and his book ‘Little Wins: The Huge Power of Thinking Like a Toddler’, at paullindley.uk. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on exit strategies and making your business greener. Remember to like us on Facebook at SmallBusinessExperts, follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lowercase) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode, Anna Jordan talks to Will Butler-Adams, managing director of Brompton Bikes. We discuss taking over the company from its founder and the future of manufacturing.   You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on business succession and international trade. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Will Butler Adams' podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Will Butler-Adams, managing director of Brompton Bikes. He started at Brompton in 2002 as a project manager, moved up to engineer director and decided to take on the role of MD when a rival company was going to buy the company out in 2008. After making some changes, production sped up and Brompton now sells 55,000 bikes per year, with key markets in the UK and China. A UK-based Brompton bike hire scheme was launched in 2011. Outside of the firm, Butler-Adams is a fellow at the Institute of Mechanical Engineers and the Royal Geographical Society as well as the City and Guilds of London Institute. He’s also a member of the British Manufacturing & Consumer Trade Advisory Group, consulting on post-Brexit trade deals outside the EU. We’ll be discussing what it’s like to take over a business from its founder and how to maintain brand loyalty. Anna: Hi Will. Will: Anna, good morning. Anna: How are you? Will: Well, very lucky. In the current climate, as we are seeing, some really, really challenging times both emotionally and also commercially, for many people globally. It's a pretty unprecedented time and we are finding ourselves as a business, one of the few sectors that has benefited from the current crisis. Anna: I understand you're in the factory right now. Will: Yep, I'm in the factory. We've traded non-stop throughout from the very first lockdown. And that has come with all sorts of challenges. But funnily enough, and we'll talk about a little bit more no doubt, that bicycle is a very, very useful tool in a situation like this. And there has been this sort of global enlightenment, to the value of something so humble as a bicycle. So, you know, we've contributed in our own peculiar way to try and to help people through this crisis. Well, I will start a little bit further back from here. When you when you bought the company, way back in 2008, you made a generous valuation estimate and you bought out the founder Andrew Ritchie's controlling stake in the company. Some might see that as a bold strategy. Why did you go for it at the time? Will: I joined the company in 2002, there were about 30 of us. Initially, I just thought I was going to muck about with a mad inventor making what looked like a fun and interesting product, not much more than that. And then [after] two or three years I'd move on. I was pretty young at 28, but the bike got under my skin and it affected my life. I wasn't naturally an urban liver. And yet, it's such fun living in London with this bike because it gave me this freedom. And I saw it had a similar, quite profound effects on our customers. That's very alluring and, in some respects, addictive. I was consumed by the company, entirely consumed by it. And Andrew, the inventor, is an absolute flipping genius. But he's not a builder of a business because he is much more of a sort of complete megalomaniac, detail, engineering right down in the nitty gritty. We're both engineers, but I'm more of a ‘vision, empowerment and grow’ engineer. And I wanted, by the time we got to 2008 – in fact, 2006 or 2007 – I wanted to commit my life to the product he'd invented, but I couldn't do it if he still had the control. The reality is that, even if you've made me the MD back then I wouldn't have had the control that I needed to do what I needed to do because I knew I needed to do things that he wouldn't approve of. He had to let go of control. It didn't mean I was then taking control because I never did. I just took out his controlling stake. But it then meant I had authority and autonomy to do what I knew needed to happen to the business for it to fulfil its potential. Were there signs that he [Ritchie] may have been getting to the point where he was more willing to give over some of the control? From what I've read, he was quite reluctant to delegate when he was in charge. Anna: Life isn't black and white. It's full of moments in time, and people, and there's a certain amount of luck. And it's whether you see the opportunity or the luck floating by and whether you jump on to it. But in this particular case, I think it was a moment in time where Andrew was getting so caught up in the detail. And when a business gets to a certain size, if you're trying to control everything, you've become the eye of the needle, and everything has to go through you. And you think that by recruiting people that you will find that then, you have less work to do. But if you are the person who is controlling everything, everything has to come through you. And by recruiting more people, you find you're even busier. That's what happened to Andrew: he got busier and busier and busier. It was making him unhappy. Because he was putting himself under so much pressure, there was a sort of nosedive where he was not enjoying himself because the business was becoming so successful. Also, I was being more confident. In the early days, the company was owned by him and his friends. His friends weren't Andrews. They were entrepreneurial, independent businesspeople in their own right. They could see and bring perspective and support Andrew to make the decision because they could see there was no way he could continue, because it wasn't his forte. So, they encouraged him to let go. It's worth saying that on many occasions, since then, he's vehemently regretted it because I've done things of course, which I knew I'd have to do that he didn't agree with. Tell me – what kind of protestations did he have? Will: It's about detail. Andrew is an inventor – in the absolute classic sense of the word. He spent 13 years, he hand-drew 1000s of drawings – technical drawings – not just for the bike, but how to make the bike and in insane detail. It’s something straight out of A Beautiful Mind. It's unreal that one human being could do what he did against a sort of backlog of everyone telling him, ‘What are you doing, wasting your time? You've tried, you fail, you're still at it, why are you still at it?’ He wouldn't give up. But he would worry about training and worry about tolerances, worrying about the grammar and would pick up on some problem, you know, six pages deep in our website, and ask me, ‘How would I let this happen?’ It's wrong, but in the grand scheme of things, when you're running a business and trying to do this and open up markets in Japan and an office in London developing this, he assumed that I would know everything and check every piece of written word and that I'd signed off every detail, but it doesn't happen like that. You have to find people better than you, you need to trust them, you need to allow them to make mistakes, just not mistakes that will take out the business. But his perception is that I was running the business – when it had 100 people, 200 people, 300 people, 400 people – in the same way that he ran the business when it had 40 people. That's just not possible. So that was the friction, and in some respects, still is a friction. In most cases, everything Andrew said was technically correct. It just wasn't the priority. And the problem is, when you're running a business and you're growing at some speed, you actually have to walk past things that are wrong. You're walking straight past something that is absolutely wrong. Unacceptable, not right. But you have to leave it because there's an even bigger wrong over there. You need to deal with the biggest [wrong]. It gives me huge pleasure that there are some things that I've been walking past for eight, nine, ten years. Finally, we've got the breadth and the capacity as a business to finally address some of these things that have been bugging me. But if you get distracted by every minutiae, as you're growing a business, you won't move the business forward because you'll never get to the most important thing that then allows you to move on to the lesser things and as you build down through the priority list. I think especially when you're starting a business, you're so used to playing all the roles, so that can be difficult to let go of. But interestingly, in Brompton’s case, when I joined, there were fewer than 30 people. I was the person running the machines. I rolled my sleeves up, spent three weeks running machines. The business was so small that that is what I did. That role has changed significantly. We now have offices around the world and we've got lots of people and I'm really doing nothing. That's a really tough call to design yourself out of a job, because there is no operational control in my role. Speaking of internationally – and you probably saw this coming – but I'd like to talk a bit about Brexit. We’re a week and a half in now. It's been ‘chaotic’, in a word, especially for exporters. I think that as somebody who has worked to advise on trade deals, and who wants to grow their market in other parts of Europe, especially for small business exporters, what do you think the forecast is for them, say the next three to five years? Will things get better? Will: What I would say – and this is not entirely directly answering your question, but indirectly does – when you're in business, you need to focus on things that you can control. You can control who you employ, you can control the culture of your organisation, how you present yourselves and what you do to inspire your team. What you can't control is FX (foreign exchange), what you can't control is Brexit. So, what you need to do is put in place strategies to mitigate the things that you can't control to allow you to get back to focusing on the things you can control. What happened with Brexit was, it started four years ago, we took a decision four years ago, to plan for the worst-case scenario. It took us about three months, the worst-case scenario hasn't then changed in three-and-three-quarter years, it's still the worst-case scenario. So, for the last three-and-three-quarter years, we've focused on growing our business innovating, distribution, communication – and we've doubled the size of our business. But what I saw over Brexit was many businesses got so caught up in worrying about something that they couldn't control, that they didn't do anything, they stagnated. They were worrying about the latest rumours – ‘I've heard it's that but maybe it's this or it could be this’. And I think in business, you need to not get distracted by things you can't control, focus on your core, focus on your added value, and manage the things you can't control by putting in place strategies to minimise the risk. Small business owners are so accustomed to planning ahead but without a lot of concrete information that's been difficult to do. Will: I'm not sure I agree. With a small business, you're more flexible than a bigger business, you're much more nimble. You have a tremendous advantage against some of the bigger players because you can adjust and you're smaller. I think it's not straightforward. It is possible to be able to try and mitigate those risks. And there aren't that many of them. Clearly Brexit is one, FX is another, trade tariffs is a third, but there aren't that many. And there's some good advice out there to support you. I know that Brompton has been open about being against planned obsolescence. This is where a company will manufacture a product so that it is unusable after a couple of years [or a certain period time], which is long enough where somebody can develop a connection with the product, but not so short that they get disengaged from the company and never buy from them again, there's regular income for that company. Phones are especially notorious for this practice. My question to you is that if a customer is only going to buy one Brompton bike for life, how do you maintain brand loyalty from customers? Will: The way you can maintain brand loyalty from customers is to give them a product that they may need to buy once in their life. Capitalism has done some amazing things – brought people out of poverty, it’s brought health, it’s brought education, but it has come at a cost to our planet. And certainly, in the last 50 years, increasingly. So, we have to rethink how we engage with consumerism and how we buy things and how we reuse things and don't just buy and chuck away and just, we're sucking value out of our planet, which our planet can't sustain. Apart from the fact that the customer must prefer the product they've had for a long time. If you've got some pots and pans that came from your granny or your parents or an old jacket or anything that's had longevity, you cherish it because it's given so much to and if you can keep it working for as long as possible, that makes total sense to me. Coming back to brand loyalty, there are things we can do to engage with our customers where they're having fun. We do races all round the world, not the last 12 months, but we do activities, we do events. And we want people to have fun, and this year with a fair wind we’ll make 70,000 bikes. I mean, they're like eight and a half billion people in the world of which nearly over 50 per cent live in cities. I mean, we haven't even started, the opportunities are immense. We want to create things, then actually what we want to do is when it's finished, which we're not out yet, we should be able to take the product back, recycle it and start all over again and have a full circular economy. Anna: Is that something that you're planning to do in future? Wil: Definitely. We need we need to do that, because there will come a point where the bikes that we were making 20 years ago, in some cases 15 years ago, have come to the end of their life, at which point for those bikes, we should be able to bring them back, take them apart for recycling, then round we go again. I've read that your marketing budget isn't huge, either. Will: I think the experience that a customer has with your product, too often, businesses are obsessed with selling you something. But that's not how you build a brand. A brand isn't what you feel when you bought it, you can buy anything. And the moment you buy and you have this sort of rush of, ‘Whoopee isn't this fantastic?’ The question is, go back to that same customer in two years’ time and say, you know that £100 you spent or that £300 you spent, was it worth it? And, sadly, in most cases against you might have never been used, or yeah, it was brilliant for about six months, and then it bust or something went wrong. There aren’t many things that that we absolutely cherish and love. I think the scope for us to be delivering a useful product, it's not just about buying, it's about looking after the customer for the life of the product. Things need looking after, which is why we have put in a lot of energy. If you like, our marketing budget goes into looking after the customers we already have – that's the most effective marketing budget. If the customers that you have really love their product, and when things go wrong, which they do, we look after them as best we can, then that's the best marketing you can get. So, spend your money on warranty or on customer service, customer support. And then when that's all perfect, you might have a little bit left over for doing some proactive marketing. But often people they forget about are the customer, they just want to go out and do this trend or get more new customers, forgetting about the ones they’ve already got. To round off, I'd like to talk a little bit about manufacturing in the UK. For a long time now it's dwindled, but then others have said, ‘Well, the UK is so innovative and it's still a very strong player in the manufacturing industry.’ In your view, where do you see it going in the next few years? Will: I think there is so much potential to manufacture in the UK, simply because the barriers to entry to doing efficient lean manufacturing are so much lower than they used to be. When I was at university, which is increasingly becoming quite a long time ago – Anna: Oh, I know the feeling! Will: Yeah! If you wanted to design something like a car, you needed a computer that filled up a room and they cost, in today's money, millions of pounds. So, the only companies that could afford the technology to allow you to design effectively were the Fords or the massive companies in the world. But you can buy a computer and start doing 3D design, you can get things printed in 3D in metal. If anything, manufacture’s become entrepreneurial again, because if you come up with an idea, if you can design it, you can print it, you can prove it, you can go on to social media, and then you can raise the money to get started. There's so much potential. The real sense of pride comes from, the reason that it's so satisfying with manufacture, is you see you’re creating something. It's that sense of creation, it's like growing plants – you're seeing something happen and come alive in front of you. You're creating something tangible – that's really, really satisfying. We've been encouraged and told that everything is on a computer and it's all noughts and ones. Actually, it’s the innate sense of pride about something tangible that's going out the door. I think actually the opportunities for it, not just in the UK but globally for manufacturing. Manufacturing doesn't need to be where there's cheap labour. Manufacturing is where there are the best ideas and robotics, semi automation, 3D printing, the cost of software and the ability to design, meaning the best ideas can sprout anywhere in the world, and you can manufacture locally, where the brains are. Anna: It would be a bit like, since the rise of social media and blogging, we've seen content creation go more into the individual’s hands, you feel like manufacturing can go from larger companies to individuals. Will: Definitely. It's a really positive thing because of disruption. I mean, if you look at things about flying taxis, people coming up, there are like 50,60,100 different companies around the world, all coming up with their different flying taxis. It was unthinkable 25 years ago, because it just wasn't possible for small businesses or small groups of individuals to try and come up with something so revolutionary, it would only be a LES four-digit or Nissan, or something – forget it. Yet, all these start-ups are doing it, because the whole engineering and manufacturing has been broken down and it makes it much more accessible. And if your idea is strong enough, if your passion burns bright enough, you can do it. Anna: Well, on that rather inspirational note, I'll leave it there. Thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast, Will. Will: Anna, it's my pleasure. Thank you for asking me. You can find out more about Brompton Bikes at brompton.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for articles on business succession and international trade. Remember to like us on Facebook at SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lowercase. Until next time, thank you for listening.    

In this episode, Tim Adler talks to Gerald Ratner, author, motivational speaker and businessman. Discussion topics include the decline of the high street and how Gerald reinvented himself after one of the biggest setbacks of his career.    You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on retail and business strategy. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Gerald Ratner's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from smallbusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Tim Adler. Today we have as our guest author, motivational speaker and businessman, Gerald Ratner. Gerald inherited his father's jewellery business in 1984. Within six years, he turned a small retailer into a multi-million-pound empire. Every British high street seemed to have a Ratners in the ‘80s. I myself remember buying a snazzy gilt tie clip from Ratners as a teenager. Gerald made Ratners so successful that it seemed that every British high street had one of his stores, or one of the associated companies he had bought up, H Samuel or Ernest Jones. Ratner seemed the quintessential ‘80s British success story, which saw Gerald mixing with Margaret Thatcher, until one fateful day in April 1991. When he was guest speaker at the Institute of Directors, he addressed 6,000 businesspeople and journalists at the Royal Albert Hall. In a moment of what can only be described as hubris, Gerald managed to undo not only his entire life, but his empire, in less than ten seconds. Gerald was describing how his company sold a cut-glass sherry decanter for just £4.95. ‘People say to me, “How can you sell this for such a low price? I say because it's total crap.”’ Ignoring the maxim that if you're in a hole, stop digging, Gerald went on to say that his company sold a pair of gold earrings for less than £1. ‘Some people say that's even cheaper than a prawn sandwich from Marks and Spencer. I have to say that the sandwich will probably last longer.’ Now, this got an enormous laugh in the Royal Albert Hall that afternoon, but the next day, the tabloids eviscerated him. Now I have to disclose some tiny sliver of connection to this moment, as my wife worked on Gerald's PR account, and I remember the panic which went on in her office the next day, how Gerald was pushed onto TV for a mea culpa interview with Terry Wogan, but the damage had been done. Shares in Ratners lost £500m within a few days, 2,500 shops had to shut and Gerald was left both clinically depressed and ousted from his own family business. But in a lesson to us all in resilience and reinvention, Gerald bounced back as a health club owner, which has sold for nearly £4m in 2001, before launching an online jewellery business. Gerald has reinvented himself multiple times throughout his life, from jeweller to gym owner to online retailer, and now to public speaker and author. Oh, I should mention that last month, Gerald had a new book out: Reinvent Yourself: A Brand New Guide for Reinventing Your Life. How to Be Successful, Achieve Your Potential, and Create Lasting Opportunity for Business Success. Tim: Hi Gerald, welcome to the podcast. Gerald: Hi, Tim. Thanks for inviting me. So, you've obviously had a lot of time to think about this. In hindsight, what were the lessons that you learned from that moment? Gerald: Yeah, I’ve had 30 years to think about it and as they say, sit in haste and repent at your leisure. What I've thought about it is that I should have been a bit more careful when I was invited to make that speech at the Albert Hall. I tried to put in a couple of jokes, to get people to laugh, because somehow when you're doing a speech, it breaks the ice. It was before I was doing speeches, really, so I was a bit nervous to do it in front of all those people. And once you've made a joke, when people laugh, they're on your side. So you know, you feel more relaxed, the nerves go away a bit more, you’re more confident. That's how you getting feedback from the audience, approval from the audience. But then, I suppose in hindsight, why try and take that option? You don't need to do it. I was, as you said, I was very successful businessman at the time, I didn't need to feel so insecure. But there you go – I was quite young at the time, about 40. It was just a mistake. What can I say? Well, it's interesting. It may because I mean, obviously, you've very successfully reinvented yourself since. And it does make me think that we British have a strange attitude towards business failure. I was reading an interview with a Dutch boss – this American tech company, snowflake. He said recently that in the US failure is seen as a badge of honour. While in Europe, there's a huge social stigma about it. He said that you go bust in Europe, you end up in economic slavery until the end of time. Do you think that Britain's got to change the way that that we think about business failure? Gerald: Well, I do think that failure is part of success, that you're quite right. In the States, if you look at all the successful – including Amazon – all these successful businessmen. Amazon lost 90 per cent of its value, after the .com boom, but it didn't really bother Jeff Bezos, because he had faith in the business. Nobody's going to sail through life without making any mistakes or failures. And certainly, I've learned a lot from my failures. And you are a better business. I'd rather be richer and not as good, but the fact is that you do learn lessons and you're better for it. I don't think it's right that there's such a stigma attached to failure that you're written off. And, you know, the first mistake you make I think that it's a shame, and it's a bit of a British disease. No, I agree. I think you talk to Americans and they have a completely different attitude towards business failure. Now, obviously, we've been all stuck in this dreadful pandemic. One of the things that we've seen is conscious support from shoppers, for small businesses and independent retailers. Do you think that's going to be a permanent change? That there's going to be a permanent change away from the big retailers? Or is this just a flash in the pan? Gerald: Well, we're all creatures of habit. And once we get into a certain way of doing things, we like to repeat them. I don't think in any way, anything will go back to normal. Having said that, it's not going to stay the same – there will be a shift back to the way we live before. But I don't think a complete shift back. My business of doing speeches in front of audiences, I don't think that they'll be as many and a lot of them will be done online, retail is exactly the same. I think that the share that the online businesses have gained through this, they won't lose completely on day one of the recovery. Hmm, I know. I mean, before the pandemic, you said that the high street was pretty much dead. And the out of town shopping centres would survive, and out of those, John Lewis would probably be last man standing. Is that you still your view that the high street’s dead? Gerald: Well, I wrote that article – it was a page in the Mail on Sunday – this year, believe it or not, just seems a long time ago, but it was before the pandemic. Yeah. And I said that the high street is dead. Turn it into homes. And I think that that's even more relevant now since the pandemic. I think the high street is dead and it won't recover. And it's just the weakest of all the ways that we can shop. I mean, there's the shopping malls. There's the internet, there's the out of town shopping. And then finally, there's the high street and the high street offers the least. It's the least convenient in terms of parking. It's the least convenient in terms of walking around in the pouring rain. And it's the least convenient in terms of the fact that it's tired. A lot of the high street stores comprise of charity shops, which the government made a mistake allowing them in with no rates and reduced rent, because they didn't do anybody any favours, because they're not an attraction. For you to go to the high street, you need quite a lot of things to attract you – maybe the banks, but they've gone. But a charity shop is not something that you make a special journey for, as are betting shops, and they’re now closing, as are the loan shops that opened up lending you money, pawn brokers and stuff like that. There's just nothing there. I think with the strength of the internet, it just can't be sustained. I mean, I definitely feel the high street is gone. And I don't think that'll be the first member of the four ways we shop to go. You know, I think it's when you look at Next results today, they've made up for all their lost sales from the high street online. You wonder why they bother with all those expensive shops and all the staff and all the costs that go with it. But do you think do you think there are any retail sectors that that will survive as in-store experiences? And I'm thinking there are certain things that you have to physically touch or try on, like shoes, I would have thought it's difficult to do that online, or perfume? Gerald: Yeah, I mean, strangely enough, when I had my hair cut, my barber was saying that he's very lucky that his is the only business that is not affected by the internet. He's not a competitor. Now, he's one of the few people that cannot substitute his business with online. So sometimes, you know, be careful what you wish for. But yeah, I just think there will be obviously something out there for people to buy. But it'll just be it'll be just like when we started with online and online was about five or ten per cent, and bricks and mortar was 90 per cent. I think that could well reverse. We could get sort of 80-90 per cent online, five or 10 per cent bricks and mortar. I know that sounds absolutely extreme. But everything is pointing [that way] as technology is getting better and better. And then we've got this green issue about travelling in the whole time. I think people will want to travel less. I just think that's, I can't put a time on it, but I just think it's inevitable, though. That is the trend. Okay, so I'm guessing that if you were starting again, now, as a young man, as an entrepreneur, entrepreneurial young man, you probably wouldn't go into retail. Gerald: No, not in retail. Tim: If you were starting now, which business would you go into today if you are starting again? Gerald: Well, I think that you've got to do something. And the timing is very important. Because I was in the jewellery business in the ‘80s. Now, we became the world's largest jewellery business, and we were very successful. But it's not all down to what we did. We were lucky in terms of the fact that the ‘80s was a great time to be in selling jewellery in retail. There's never been a time like it. Basically, because young people, the demographics in the sections of 16-24, had a lot of disposable income, and we catered for them which the other jewellers didn't. But nevertheless, we couldn't have done that so successfully today. Then went into the health club business in the ‘90s. That was the right time because there wasn't a lot of competition and it was just building, you know, people just becoming health conscious. Not like they are today – a lot of people were not health conscious. There was a growing market there, not much competition Then I went into online business at the turn the century, long before it became fashionable. And it became very cheap to get your product online, pay per clicks (PPC). We were selling an eternity ring. Because there were only about 50 jewellers out there, it only used to cost us about £3 to buy pay per clicks for that. Today, that same eternity ring cost us £250, instead of £3, because there's so much competition, so I'm not interested in that. The business I would go in is somewhere where there isn't a lot of competition. In the growing market, where I think the market is going to grow, but there's not a lot of people that have cottoned on to it yet. And you're not going to share which business you've identified? Gerald: Well, it might not be anything to do with the internet, believe it or not, even after what I've said. A friend of mine is just sold his business who supplies hangers to Marks and Spencer. He just sold his business for £60m. There's nothing particularly high tech or disruptive about hangers. I think the key is if you do something differently, and you do it well, that's all you need to do. You need to be an expert in your field. I mean, I like to think that I know a bit about jewellery, whereas other competitors at the time didn't. We basically displayed all our diamond rings at 42 inches from the ground because the average woman was 5”4, and the trajectory of our eye would fall perfectly at 42 inches. Other jewellers wouldn't bother with niceties like that. It’s the silly little things like that that are important in business. Oh, yeah. It's the details that are important. And in a similar vein, if you could go back in time to yourself as a young man, what advice would you say? What would you say to a young Gerald Ratner about how to behave in business, or if you have a maxim in business? Gerald: Well, what I did was right up until the speech, what I did was take risks, which you need to do. I mean, we're not schoolteachers or policemen or hospital workers, however wonderful they are. We’re people who can get make a lot of money very quickly or lose a lot of money very quickly, we’re born in a risk business. So I was prepared to risk everything. I went to America, was told that America was a graveyard for British retailers. And my shareholders said, ‘If you fail, we'll turn on you with venom.’ I didn't really need to go to America, because I had 1,000 shops here that were making a lot of money at 50 per cent of the jewellery market, but I wanted to go to America. I like taking risks. I think that, as my co-author in my new book says that, if you don't risk anything, you risk everything. And your business is about risks, calculated risks. I don't smoke – I'd like to, but it's a risk. If it was only a slight risk, I would smoke. But as a businessman, because it's a quite a big risk, the odds are not in my favour. So that's something I can't do. I look at the odds. But then you can back a horse that's three to one on and it can lose, but it's unlikely to. That's the way I look at it, as a young Gerald going into business is, don't try and think about your pension. Don't try and think about safety. Go out, if you feel you're confident that you've got the right formula, go for it, and do whatever it takes. Tim: Well, that's a very good note to end on, Gerald, and thank you for your thoughts and advice. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast. And you can get in touch with Gerald at geraldratner.co.uk. You can also visit small business co.uk for more insights on the future of retail and business strategy. And thank you for listening.

In this episode I talk to Trinny Woodall, TV presenter, author and founder of makeup brand, Trinny London. We discuss influencer marketing and augmented reality within the beauty industry.   You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on SEIS and the importance of communities. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Trinny Woodall's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Trinny Woodall, fashion and beauty guru, TV presenter, author, entrepreneur and new entrant in the Telegraph’s Top 100 Tech Entrepreneurs 2020. Formerly one half of Trinny and Susannah earlier in the 2000s, she now runs Trinny London, an online make-up company providing personalised stackable products. It includes the Match2Me service which matches Trinny London make-up to a person’s skin tone, hair and eye colour. The business is worth £46m. We’ll be looking at influencer marketing and the changing habits of beauty consumers.     Anna: Hello Trinny. Trinny: Hello, Anna. How are you? Anna: Yeah, I'm doing all right. Thank you. How are you? Trinny: Very well, thank you. Anna: Great. First, I’d like to talk about your business background. Trinny London is pretty on the pulse when it comes to emerging business trends – personalisation, building social media communities, the founder being an extension of the brand. Of course, you will have a team behind you, but it looks like there is some knowhow there already. Is this your first foray into business particularly in the pre-Trinny-and-Susannah days? Trinny: Even pre-Trinny-and-Susannah days, I had gone into finance. So, I started my career in commodities, selling commodity funds, which I detested. I would go down from Earls Court to Tower Hill and I would have the FT on the outside and inside, I'd be reading the Daily Mail. But there was an obligation in my mind, because my dad was a good businessman, an entrepreneur. I was the youngest of six kids and I think I didn't feel smart enough for university. I started as a secretary in a physical trading house. I was surrounded by business conversations at the dining room table because my father, brother and brother-in-law were involved in the same business. And then, when I was doing my foray into the City, I realised how much I disliked it and I wanted to do something else. But there was a part of me that wanted to have a business. I think I always had that from a very young age. I fell into television and before I even did TV, Susannah and I had a column and the internet started emerging as a as a platform that econ was just starting in ‘98. I really thought it was so interesting that you could do some form of personalisation online. And with all the traction we had with our followers on Trinny London, I remember I spent a weekend and I was doing a fast, I had very bad skin, so I was doing this fast, very weird thing. But my brain became very clear. I thought, ‘What can one do that could bring together what the internet's beginning to offer and refine choice?’ I think the idea of refinement of choice was a really big one for me. And that came about in Ready 2, which was something that we started in 1998. By 2001, it had closed. The idea for it was a portal for women with fashion and clothing and beauty. We just couldn't get to the profitability, because there wasn't enough traction online of being able to do a transaction so you could take a commission, so it didn't happen, but I loved it. Susannah didn't love it, because for her, she loves more the creative side of things. We then did television and spent ten years doing TV shows around the world. And during that time, we had an agent. I also was more of the kind of driver of the business side of what we would do next. I’ve got lots of beeps by the way going in this podcast because as much as I love tech, I cannot for the life of me get my notifications to turn off on this laptop. I will apologise for the beeps. I'm trying to get Slack to quieten down, but it's not going to happen. So, there was that moment, after about 10-15 years working with Susannah where we both felt a fatigue with what we were doing. I think I will never stop loving the concept of making over a woman. And by that I don't mean make somebody who looks bad look good, but just moving their sense of how they see themselves. Then I had this idea for Trinny London at the back of my mind, and I didn't realise until I look back at certain things, and people remind me how early on I had that idea. And in those last few years of making over women in every different country, I would be in Poland using Inglot makeup, and then I'd be in Israel using MAC and then somewhere else, I noticed the team of makeup girls would always do the same look on everyone and I felt that I kept saying to them, ‘Look, they have all have a different skin, hair, and you must look at colour palettes and look at how you can put them differently on women.’ And I felt that was something that really didn't exist, that level of personalisation. And I also felt that it's something that really didn't happen in store. I thought, okay, it's going to be online. And by the time I made that decision, I'd started developing with an SEIS scheme, I'd gone and I thought, ‘How can I raise some money?’ I was really coming to the end of my royalties from the different shows I'd done. Probably I was the most broke I had been in 15 years. But sometimes that's when you got to do stuff. With the SEIS scheme, you can raise up to £150,000 and it's 50 per cent tax back. Two people who were kind of committed to me as a businesswoman, they knew I had a good work ethic, a friend of mine’s mother and well, one of my daughter's friends. The mother who I didn't know that well, but was in beauty. She runs beauty at Mintel research, and my daughter's Godfather, both believed in my work ethic. So I asked them, and they put in £150,000 between them. I then had the opportunity to explore. I think if you look at all different entrepreneurs, they either start tiny, and every time they get a tiny bit of revenue, they invest in something else. And I think the younger you are, the easier that is to do. But I was 50 when I started this, so I knew I needed to really accelerate to get that proposition out there. I raised that money – probably the most expensive money I raised in terms of the percentage of revenue I gave away, the percentage of the value of the business I gave away for that. But I wouldn't have got it got off the ground. And one thing I've learned in life is you must never ever regret any decision you make. I got to that point and I think then I knew from what I'd learnt in the past with Ready 2 is I had felt an inexperienced businesswoman so I had hired what I deemed to be really experienced people in their field. The CMO I paid at that time £100,000 to because I'd raised £7m for Ready 2. I hired a CEO who came from Barclays, because I thought she'd be a good – CFO, CEO background – and a lot of other women who were in quite high-powered tech. There was a huge amount going out in salaries and a really high burn rate per month.   I knew that with that £150,000 I've got to do a really good business plan, I've got to show a prototype, I've got to show where I'm going to get it made, I've got to show how I'm going to make the money. And I was building up a little social media following. I'd started on it – I realised I just wanted to do video because I come from television. And it was gaining traction. By this stage, I had a very nice guy called Mark who became my COO, and he had a CFO background. When we were doing those spreadsheets, which any small business, you spend days doing those projections, months doing those projections. People can do crazy projections. And I kind of knew, I wanted projections that, when I went into an investor meeting, I could say, ‘This is really why I believe I'll get to that revenue in 2020,2021 and 2022.’ We did it as a percentage of a conversion of my social media following. And as that social media following grew, we felt that between two and two and a half per cent of those people would buy from the brand. And now, three years later, the valuations are actually probably double what you said, because we've had huge growth in the last six months. But it's been based on that, there hasn't been a huge amount that's changed. I hired that middle management, that C-suite, a year and a half into the business. I hired a CMO. I hired a strategic CTO, I have a very nice CTO who started with us early, but he was more he's now head of development. And I hired an MPD. And I was at the stage where I got enough revenue in and I thought I can sustain those salaries. Because otherwise all you're doing is earning money to pay the salaries, and I wanted to earn the money for growth. Absolutely. As you there are a few different things in there that I'd like to pick up on. First of all, women investors, especially when they're pitching, they have a harder time because they’re often all-male panels or a majority male panels. What kind of unique challenges did you face, being a woman but also being a woman in her 50s? Trinny: I think the challenges I face were those two plus somebody who was known, but known in a different industry. That might have got me the meeting, but it was oddly prejudicing in other ways. People put you in a box. And we think in the press, they make assumptions. They don't know what you're like as a businesswoman, they've just seen you on television, which might seem to investors a light-hearted industry. There's a sort of double importance to make them appreciate and understand that you will know how to run a business and get the right people at the right time to support you in running that business. I probably went to see 22 VCs before I had somebody say. ‘Actually, I get it.’ I always thought I want to be more than a makeup brand owner. I want this to be a community for women to feel good. It was about having every age represented, every skin tone represented, every type of woman could feel that she could identify with what we were offering. So convincing investors of that, instead of our target market is 18 to 34. Because many investors said to me, ‘Love it, but can you just skew the whole thing and do it for the Millennials?’ And I was like, ‘No, to me, the gap in the market is 35 to 55.’ It's for everyone, but this is a huge gap. So I want to definitely have over 50 per cent of my customers from 30 to 60. So I just felt that there was this real untapped market in a very, very crowded area. Yeah. And you've got to stick to that vision I think if I look at the difference between what Trinny London represents and what Trinny Woodall represents, they're not all the same customer, but a lot of people from Trinny will convert to become a Trinny London customer. And there's a lot of people on Trinny London who don't even follow me, so I love that.   We have these Trinny tribes that have stopped around the world and about 70,000 women around the world who are part of our Facebook tribe, which is in their area. And that, to me, is that other part of the business when I say that Trinny London isn't just a makeup brand. I think that the word ‘community’ has been very overused in brand building, because it might have been started by some men in dark suits in a room of a very commercial business. I think community has to start organically. And then you have to feel how can you harness what is in fact, a sort of fan base, a passion? People are the most passionate about your brand, how can you harness them? It's not going to become a multi-level marketing business. That's not what we are. But how can we make them feel good about the fact that they, for free, love to chat about Trinny London?    Yeah, you were saying as well, one of the problems you had earlier on was of personalisation and reaching enough women and even on What Not to Wear, in a series you can only do maybe six people at a time. Whereas with social media that's completely revolutionised that and you can have a much broader reach now. That has brought about the Trinny Tribes on Facebook. I'd quite like to know, was that part of your plan originally? Or did that come about organically? Trinny: I think that the very original Trinny Tribe were people who follow me on my Instagram. And some of those were like, ‘Are you the person who used to be Trinny of Trinny and Susannah? Yeah, I used to be that person. Now I just do my own thing. And they follow that. There was a woman called Kelly in north west England and she just started a Facebook fan page. And she took a bit of our logo and called it Trinny Tribe and said if there’s anyone else who’d like to know what she's doing at the moment and follow her. This is, as we launched the brand, I mean, literally, maybe a tiny bit before. These people started joining. And then somebody said, ‘Well, I'm in London, I might start a London one.’ And so we saw our logo on Facebook, or a picture of me or a bit of yellow, really random little things that you put on Facebook. And so we thought, ‘Okay, well, what we can't have this very fragmented interpretation of our brand, because it sort of dilutes what we are and, and in a way there is an association there with the word ‘Trinny’. We approached the admins, and we said, ‘Look, we just love what you're doing, would you like to be more connected to us, and we can give you a nice logo for your area and think of ways that we could… you could come in for a drink occasionally and it’d be lovely to meet some of you.’ They were very excited. And so that's in a way how it began. And then we assigned a woman who did a lot of stuff on social media called Paris, to be the contact for those people. We then said, ‘Look, we think admins a horrible word, let's call you ambassadors, or ambassadresses.’ So they love that too. We have some of them in unit for a little brainstorm, what they liked about things and what they'd like more of, just so there was that feeling that they are a part of the growth of what Trinny London represents. Yeah, exactly. I know I can imagine that over COVID the habits of beauty consumers has changed because Trinny London has quite a soft, radiant glow-y type of makeup which people are actually saying is quite good for Zoom calls rather than something that's very heavy that you'd see more on a night out. How would you say that your customer base has changed over COVID? Is it more people who would be going to the makeup counter who are now looking online? Trinny: For sure. And as you were saying there is a certain advantage to having the social media videos because you bring in the people who are less seasoned when it comes to makeup, maybe want to try and explore it a bit. They have tutorials on how to layer different pots. There are a couple of things I would like to talk about before we wrap up. First off, within the beauty industry, we see a lot of influencer marketing but with your Ambassadresses is there as much a need for that? What kind of role does [influencer marketing] play? Trinny: it's interesting, in a way, because I have across Instagram and Facebook, about 2m followers, I am to an extent an influencer. And because Trinny London is my revenue stream and my brand building, I've never done any deal with anyone. I talk about Zara a lot on my own channel, because I think it's the most internationally available. And I talk about what I love. I was very reticent [about influencer marketing]. When we tried very early on, we worked with rewardStyle. And we paid – what for us then – was a fortune to get them to select the people they thought were good influencers, and I found incredibly low conversion. I think our strategy has been far more that when we look at for Facebook advertising, for example. Facebook advertising has changed their algorithms, so that instead you can still designate an audit audience. But they can also say, ‘Okay, we'll take control of that earlier stage.’ And we will find the algorithm of the people who are buying from you already and match it and do their weird magic, which… it's a computer teaching another computer to teach another computer, it's like a dark hole. Any brand that's going down that route, and deciding to do it, and I do think it's a far more successful route for the influencer route and for our brand, is the importance that these shouldn't really always look like ads. And because people are engaged by something that grabs them that they think is something they're going to learn from. So sometimes you and I would look on our feed and would see an ad, it will grab us, because it's a really clean ad, it's like this will clean your teeth better than any other toothbrush. And you're like, ‘Okay,’ but some other things need a story to be told. And sometimes you think you've got 30 seconds to tell that story, or you've got five minutes to tell that story. But some of our most successful ads on Facebook are just actually women saying, ‘I'm trying this’ and they're telling their story. We have a lot of content, we have at any one time about 200 ads running on Facebook. And that is a strategy that was implemented when our CMO joined us, Shira. Because she said, ‘Look, we really want to put in the marketplace a lot.’ And everyone is going to be attracted by a different bit of content. I think there are some good influencers. But generally, an influencer is a business. And we must respect and appreciate that as a business. But I think to be a really successful influencer, you have to have a proportion of your feed being, ‘This is what I really love, and there's no ad or whatever involved.’ And when you see an influencer, where it's basically ad or affiliation, ad or affiliation, that’s it, there's no objective, ‘This is what I really think about the product.’   The other problem we've got as consumers is magazines are drying up and magazines are going online. The concept of the war between advertising and editorial, which used to be quite strict in a magazine, is very blurred online. Because magazines need to make a revenue, and the revenue is they write an article and the user clicks through and they have an affiliation to that product. And that happens whenever I'm on any magazine. That's a revenue stream. We know that if we read an article in a magazine, and these are the top 10 there'll be a click through to all of them and the magazine is making money because that's the only way they can make money. They are an influencer on a grand scale, but they are still getting the cut like the small influencer is getting a cut, so I'm not sure. But to answer your question in a very long-winded way, for our business, the influencer model is not the right model. There are beauty businesses in Germany, there's a young beauty brand called Bananas or something I can't remember, it's quite often young brand, like a Glossier but younger. And their model is a purely influencers. They put all their revenue that I might put into Facebook into 200, 300, 400 key influencers and it's very successful with them. Is that an age thing or an attitude thing? I'm not sure. Anna: I guess knowing your business as well. I mean, it's going to be different. You're going to have different target audiences, you'll find them in different places. So I definitely think that you do what's right for you. Okay, last thing I'd like to talk about is the the future of Trinny London, and where it's going. Match2Me is a huge part of the overall brand. Do you see yourself moving it on a bit? Say, with augmented reality. We were seeing it with L'Oreal, having apps that you can put makeup on your face virtually, things like that. Do you ever see Trinny London going that way? Trinny: I think that's the fundamental difference between what a lot of brands did during COVID is they did virtual trial, because they knew all their customers wanted to try. Virtual try-on to me, to date, is still gamification. The majority of them come with filters. And it's kind of, for some women, it's like, ‘I know, I'm not going to look like that, because they've made my face perfect.’ Is it just a fun way to play? And would it make me buy the lipstick? On some brands, the conversion is great, because it's catering to an audience that already is building and doing filters on Instagram and Snapchat and TikTok and therefore, they love it. And it kind of makes sense. I think Match2Me is unique, because there is no other beauty brand that is actually saying, ‘Let's look at your skin, hair and eye. And let's look at the refinement of choice of colour that suits you.’ I think that can't be replicated. I mean, I haven't seen anyone do it. And I've been working with four or five different augmented reality and virtual trial brands and have come to the conclusion that, in fact, we are going to develop something internally. Because what I see is very set out of the box plug-ins, and I want to do something which is a step ahead of what these people are currently offering. There is a huge, very interesting opportunity for brands to really personalise and personalise to their customers. But I think there's going to be cleverer ways than just what is still a little bit of gamification. Anna: So, something that perhaps isn't on the market yet? Trinny: Not on the market yet. Anna: Well, that sounds like a good place to wrap up. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Trinny. It was great to have you on. Trinny: It was lovely to talk to you.              You can find out more about Trinny London at trinnylondon.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for articles on starting a business of your own and building social media communities. Remember to like us on Facebook at SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lowercase. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode I talk to Merlin Griffiths, pub owner, mixologist and bartender on Channel 4's First Dates. We discuss current difficulties in the hospitality industry and how you can cut your costs.  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on running a hospitality business and the latest COVID-19 measures. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. We've paired up with Smart Energy GB to bring you this episode.  Would you prefer to read Merlin Griffith's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Merlin Griffiths, pub owner, mixologist and bartender on Channel 4’s First Dates. Merlin grew up in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire. He used to own the Priory Tavern in north west London, with his wife, Lucille. These days he runs Maltsters Country Inn, located in Badby. Cocktails are a staple speciality on Merlin’s menus as he’s been a bartender and mixologist for 20 years. He first appeared as the bartender on First Dates in 2013 and the show is currently on its 14th series. We’ll be finding out a bit more about him as well as the challenges facing the hospitality industry.   Anna: Hi Merlin. Merlin: Hi Anna, thank you for having me. How are you doing? Anna: Of course – I'm doing very well, thank you. How about you? Merlin: Yeah, yeah, all things considered, well, I think, yeah. Now, many of our listeners would recognise you as the man behind the bar on First Dates. Tell us more about how you got into the hospitality industry and then onto the show. Merlin: Hospitality – what a trade to be in! It's one of those things, isn't it? Do you plan to go into hospitality? Some people do they really do? I don't think I did. I was quite young, when I first started working as what we call a barback, up in the West End of London. I think I lucked out by getting into the right bar at the right time. This was just as that cocktail renaissance was starting to happen in the mid-90s. Yeah, for me, I mean, it was one of my first jobs in London. I was just happy to have a job really, to work all hours all days or, yeah, do just about anything necessary. You know, it wasn't probably until about five or six years in and you start going, ‘I'm still doing this?’ This is more than just a stopgap of a job, isn't it? Yeah, I think this is now officially a career. And yeah, that's where it's led to now via corporate money. I had a good stint working for five-star hotels out in India for Taj hotels. I was living in Bangalore for a good while. From there, I was headhunted into Bacardi Global, as one of their global ambassadors for Bombay Sapphire gin and Oxley gin at the time. That was a great experience – almost four years bouncing around the world teaching people how to make martinis and from there into pub ownership. It was at that point where we suddenly thought, my partner and I, we’ve been looking at this, and especially on my travels – I've been in America loads – I have this idea that a good American neighbourhood bar, you can still get a really well-made Cosmo or Margarita as well as decent draft beer. And I had this idea that why can't you do the same in a sort of a British pub setting, you know, the cocktail side of things, the drink side of things shouldn't really be mutually exclusive. Cocktails and cask ales, quite literally. So that's sort of where we started cocktails and cask ales and no screens and no machines, because I decided there were enough TVs in pubs at the time as well. Pubs should be sociable. And so that's what it led to that. And it was while doing that, there was a job advertisement for Channel Four. They were looking for a bartender. That's it, it was literally advertised as a job and I was like, ‘Okay, I think I could pull out a small amount of time to have a go at that too’. And I was lucky enough to land it – it’s a fantastic role which I've really, really enjoyed. Just out of curiosity, how do you get headhunted as a barman? What kind of things are they looking for and who approaches you? It’s an odd one, you see, because the social media side. You go online these days and you can find loads of really good bartenders up and down the country and all around the world. There's a really developed network nowadays. But we're going back ten years and it wasn't as developed as we know it now. For me, moving into the job of First Dates, for instance, I was very lucky thanks to the Bacardi Global support. I've done a whole bunch of videos of online training and bits and bobs for them at the time. If you if you literally just search ‘find me as a cocktail bartender’, there were about three pages of me making nice and dry martinis, and Tom Collins [cocktails] and so on and so forth. So really, I think, you know, a certain amount of luck, but at the time. These days, you really have to work hard for it. Anna: I imagine it's not just the showy, throwing bottles over your shoulder and setting things on fire, either. Merlin: No, but that's also fun. Obviously, I was never much of a flair bartender. For me, it always has been about customers and customer service. That's the real key for me as a people business. And I've always said that. The clues in the name hospitality: we’re hospitable. And that's genuinely what we get up to here. It's not about how well can you can mix a martini or how well you can keep your cask ale, all of that. At the same time though, what's really important is how you deal with people, I don't like to use the word customers – ‘guests’ is better. You know, how you deal with your guests, who become friends as well, your local community, especially in the pub game. There is loads to think about when it comes to running a pub. When you took on Maltsters, it was in pretty bad shape when you took it on. How did you turn it around without blowing your budget? Merlin: Slowly but surely, evenly divide the task up piecemeal, otherwise these places can become. Anyone who's taken an old pub or an old, an old tumble-down pub. Why call nil-premium size, anyone who's done that journey knows what I'm talking about, when you have to divide up the task because otherwise it can become overwhelming. Unless you've got unlimited budgets and contracts as to throw it all in one big hit, which let's face it, most of us don’t. I know that at small business level we tend to sort of bootstrap our way up. First things first, yes, I'm going right what obviously, I need to get the kitchen, clean, comfortable, hygienic. Once you do that, we need a basic bar and trade area. So they're the first two things you look at, then we start looking at upgrading the function room, then we start looking at doing the gardens, then we can start looking at doing any of the letting rooms that are available here and things like that. Slowly but surely, now we're only just over three years into our journey here. There's still lots more to do. But you just take it one chunk at a time and make it manageable. One of the things I noticed when I was looking around was that the TripAdvisor reviews before you took [the Maltster] on were also not great, they tended to be one star. How do you recover from these kind of bad TripAdvisor reviews (or other platforms that are similar)? Merlin: I don't know in all honesty. I don't really keep an eye on that side of it. I'd rather keep my eyes on the people that are coming in and the customers that I do have. I think it is as a small business, it's a whole other job managing online and especially getting involved in managing reviews. Some people do very well at it, my hat goes off to them. I decided that my efforts are better placed elsewhere in the business, in looking after those people that I can see in front of me and those people that phone me here to make bookings. Anna: Do you think it was worth would be worth hiring a separate person altogether to deal with that side of things?   Merlin: If you can afford it. I don't know if I can! I mean, that's what sort of segways neatly to the work I've been doing with Smart Energy GB as well with this guide advice. I mean budgets are tighter than ever at the moment. Crikey.  You’ve been vocal on Twitter about how the government has been handling measures affecting the hospitality industry during the coronavirus pandemic. What do you think of the action being taken and what measures would you like to see? Merlin: Honestly, I don't think it's my place to say yay or nay. It's too easy to bash any point of view that people might have at the moment or any approaches that have been taken, realistically, as a small business owner from talking, honestly, so much of it's out of our control. And so much of it is out of my control, at the end of the day, whether I agree with things or not. And in all honesty, what I've really spent since March and up till now doing is looking at what I can control, because it's so easy to feel helpless in these situations. It really is, you know, when you're faced with ever higher hurdles to jump, ever more onerous bits of legislation to go through. But with the help of peers as well, I stay in touch with a large network of publicans these days. One of our groups, we've got about 250 of us chatting away. And it's lovely to be able to bounce ideas off each other and get advice about ways of doing things. This helps you feel more in control, honestly. That's really useful. Because otherwise, it's very easy to get quite down about the whole thing, angry and shouty, or just generally depressed and withdrawn. And, yeah, it's tough. I'm not going to say it's easy. But nonetheless, by approaching this with the idea of what can I control, it certainly makes you feel a little bit better. Ordinarily, I’d be asking about what small improvements hospitality businesses can make to improve and grow, but unfortunately the situation is different right now. What advice do you have for these business owners to get through this time, both professionally and personally? Merlin: I'll start with the personal one. You know, honestly, for me, do one non-work activity that brings you joy, at least once a week. Honestly, it really does feel like we're hardwired to work 24/7, but it is important to try and do that one thing that's just for you, however much you convince yourself that there isn’t time. I cycle – that's my thing. I'll take a couple of hours each week and go for a long ride. I'll get, you know, I'm really sorry. I'm one of those weirdos who dresses up in Lycra. Anna: Oh no, I’m a keen cyclist myself – no judgement here at all! Merlin: I don’t know what age you turn into, what do they call it, a MAMIL (Middle-aged Man in Lycra)? Anna: You’ve got time yet! Merlin: Good, thank you. But honestly, seriously, what I say just do this one thing that brings you joy, even really, if that's something as simple as pulling yourself down to the local park, right, sitting on a bench in some peace and quiet with a cup of tea or coffee and reading a book or doing the crossword, whatever it takes just to try and remove yourself for a moment. It's incredibly important. I think whether people realise it or not, there's this underlying bubbling stress and tension, and especially more so as a small business operator these days. In the survey work that we've done here, as well as 69 per cent of changes in their financial situation has led to negative impacts on their mental health. So, all of that needs to be dealt with, somehow, it really does, before it bubbles over. You can't hold it in. Talk to people as well, you know, utilise your peer networks, really. Friends are really wonderful if you've got a good friend and will listen. But sometimes there are sector-specific things and business owner-specific things. It does help to talk to other people in the same situation in the same boat. Try and get involved in some of the groups that are out there, you know, maybe just to vent a little bit and get it off your chest. Anna: Yeah, I think as a business owner, sometimes you're inclined to put other people, namely your employees, first. Merlin: Always employees. They're like a little family. Honestly, they're extended family. Any small business person knows that, they're the biggest asset you have in your business, your team, your staff, your people. You’ve got to look after them. I mean, in March that was that was the first thing was stressed us – what are we going to do, that stuff we need to make sure they looked after? Like many of us, we looked at our cash flow and thought, ‘Oh, crikey’. Well, it's going to be a while before we get the furlough payments into pay them. So how do we go about this without also bankrupting the business? The true way to look after my staff is to make sure that they've got jobs to come back to as well. You know, and so yeah, we had some very frank and honest discussions with our staff, and they were absolutely brilliant. They worked with us and completely understood. I think we were incredibly lucky to have the team that we do, we really are. I love them all to bits. We've seen on the website that with the increased rate of redundancies, more and more people are interested in starting their own business. What would you say to somebody who wants to start a hospitality business? Merlin: It's hard work but go for it. Honestly. Put in the hours and you get the rewards, quite frankly. It's a great trade to be in. I think it's an absolutely great trade. I've been there – 25 years now behind bars and involved in hospitality in one way shape or form. And ten of those as a landlord. It is absolutely tremendous. I'd say that's awesome. Do it. You know, ONS stats say that 99.6 per cent of British businesses are classed as small to medium businesses. Anna: Most are micro businesses too. Merlin: Yeah, most of those are micro businesses usually. So, best part of six million. It was Napoleon quote who said Britain is a nation of shopkeepers, wasn’t it? Yeah, that hasn’t changed. You know, the small business is what makes this country tick. It absolutely does. It's so incredibly important. Absolutely important. And it's not just that, and it's not just the standards we hear about, you know, jobs in the economy and so on. This is families, livelihoods, children, the socio-economic impact here at a macro level is really far-reaching is incredibly important. It's really easy to sort of get the view these days that Britain's dominated by big business, but of course, they've got marketing budgets, and that's why you hear about them. But really, as you can see from those statistics, 99 per cent it's small to medium – all hail the little guys. I'm going to head back – we started this or with advice as well for small business owners. Let's have a look. What else have we been recommending to people? Controlling controllables is what I wanted to touch on, really. Rent, this is a really big one, but you've got to open conversations with the landlord, haven't you at the moment. Trust me, it's tough to keep calm, but you have to keep calm and do that with a level head. Yeah, again, staff you need to control. This is looking after them in the best ways possible. And now if you're doing this alongside changing your business as well, hopefully, maybe you could find other ways to pick up some hours for staff if you're been exploring the possibilities to go. Normally I serve a bit of food or a bit of drink, but suddenly, well, now you start looking at your site going, ‘I got a licensed A3 space, it's a commercial site. What else can I do with it?’ This hopefully brings out new work, new workflows, new ways of operating, whether that's local groceries, setting yourself up as a sub postmaster, you might do local deliveries, hot takeaway, cold takeaway, there are so many different bits and bobs going on here. There are operators even doing full meals to cook at home from their kitchens, bathrooms being sent out, that there are so many different things. But these are good ways to assure your business so you can provide the hours for your staff. And then you start looking at utilities, get a handle on utilities, and honestly, there again, they're an important part of what you do. And this is where you get into this idea of marginal gains. I'm a big fan of marginal gains, they are a great thing as long tail effect, because if you do enough of them, they actually start adding up to be a significant gain for your business. Anna: If people want to make those marginal gains, how would they go about that? One of the clearest easy wins, contact your energy supplier and see if you can get a smart meter. I think it's a really good, sensible thing to do. up to date information on how your business is running and how much things are costing is essential now more than ever. This is more than just turning lights off. You could start controlling your stock levels, your exposure, and that sort of sense. Tighten up your menus to focus on the crowd pleasers and the profitable dishes and so on. I want to know how much stuff costs to run now, I really do. I've got a sneaking suspicion that I'm going to be able to save a fortune on extra kitchen extracts and some of the electrical hardware in the kitchen, especially, you know, I'm interested to look at when my chef turns this on, when he turns it off, is it actually necessary at certain points If I can save maybe eight to 12 hours’ worth of electric a day, and trust me, you're talking high kilowatt devices here. Ronnie, you know, he was running an electric pizza oven, for instance, out there, they know this is a 12 kilowatt device. Yeah, this isn't small beans we're talking about anymore. These are ways of controlling what you can, knowing that you've trimmed the fat, made your business lean, all those little these things, again, tend to be little things that are going on. They also tend to be at normal trade times, tends to put these things on a back burner – ‘Oh, yeah, I must have looked at that one point’ or they’ve got a whiteboard in the office or a Post-It note somewhere or a to-do list or what have you. And you sort of eventually get around to them. Now is the time to dive into all of that stuff and start getting a really good handle on what you do and the way you work and being prepared to change as well. We all have to adjust. Anna: Yes, it’s also amazing what some small business owners have done in adding in new kinds of services. Merlin: Yeah, it's fantastic for the rural side of things. I'm loving the fact that loads of rural pubs, for instance, are reinstating lost village services like post offices and shops. The fantastic thing is if you look at them as standalone things, I can see why they largely closed in a lot of small villages. It's very difficult to make a profit as a small village shop, given the cost of renting a building, and so on and so forth these days. If you're already doing that as a pub, and you've got the space to expand to a retail offering, right now it's a given win and you're engaging with your community now in new ways, by restoring the services, it’s fantastic. Let's not forget a lot of rural communities as well have people who will be shielding in certain ways or you know, just sort of largely keeping out society's way. So, a chance for them to literally just be able to walk down to the end of the street and get a bottle of milk or something without having to go into town is huge for them. Absolutely huge. Anna: Is there anything else you'd like to add? Merlin: I tell what I will add. Really plug into these hospitality networks, the industry networks, take advice where you can get it, speak to your accountant. If you don't have an accountant, take free financial advice from your bank as they will always be happy to give it, but wherever you can, take that advice. The more people you speak to, the more you suddenly realise you're not alone in all this. And there are ways still to sort of keep the glass looking half full, even though it may look half empty, if I can be so frank. But we are, as I say, creative, resilient, adaptable, this is hospitality! Challenges are something we routinely rise to, something we're very good at overcoming in this business. Anna: Well, that seems like the ideal note to wrap up. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast, Merlin. Merlin: Thank you so much for having me on, Anna, thank you. Watch Merlin in First Dates on Channel 4’s catch-up service, All4. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on COVID-19 measures and running your hospitality business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

In this episode I chat to Charlie Mullins, founder and chairman of Pimlico (formerly known as Pimlico plumbers). We talk about how to build a customer base in the early days and upcoming IR35 changes.   You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on running a family business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Charlie Mullins' podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Charlie Mullins, businessman and founder of Pimlico Plumbers, now known as Pimlico. After finishing an apprenticeship in plumbing, Charlie launched Pimlico Plumbers in 1979. He started out with a second-hand van and a bag of tools, gradually building up the business. Pimlico reached a £1m turnover in 1994 and currently has a turnover in excess of £50 million. In 2015, Charlie was awarded the UK’s first OBE in relation to plumbing. Earlier this year, his son Scott took on the role of chief executive while Charlie went into the role of chairman. Anna: Hi Charlie. Charlie: Hi Anna. Thanks very much for having us on. Been looking forward to this so I’m very excited, thank you. Anna: Great stuff. How are you doing today? Charlie: Very good. I’m in Marbella in Spain at the moment and we have a small business out here – also to do with Pimlico – and yeah, life's good. I'm going to come back right to the beginning of the business, and a lot of our small business owners are in the early stages themselves. And I'm sure they're wanting to know how you built up your customer base in the early days, especially without tools like social media. Charlie: Yeah, well, thinking back then, back in 1979, I finished my apprenticeship and had been working as self-employed, and then started working in the Pimlico area. I started getting repeat work and that undoubtably, whatever service you're offering, is quality of service. That's what's going to get you customers and keep you busy. I have to say I was a pretty good plumber and offering the service to people required. It starts with word of mouth and then other people will recommend you to other customers. I  quickly learned that the art of it is to retain your customer and back in them days, I think I was working on that basis, and you go to these customers regularly, and that would just sort of get more and more. I quickly learned that it’s retaining a customer that gets you through. First of all, it gives you a customer base, and then it gets you through any difficult times that you may like recessions or lack of work. As the business has progressed, we have a policy now at Pimlico once you’re a Pimlico customer, we work on the basis that you’re a Pimlico customer for life. I would say to anybody starting out, retaining your customer is the way to build up a great customer base. What is the secret to retaining the customer?   Charlie: Quality of service. Quality of service can mean many things: turning up on time, dressing correctly for the for the job, having identification on you, be very transparent in what you're doing, make people aware of your rates before you start, get the job done, tidy up after you. And I think in general, just your sort of behaviour in somebody’s house or for a customer, just be as professional as you can. That could be whether you're in their house, or you're running a business from the internet, or you're sort of got a shop or whatever you got. Undoubtedly, the way forward is quality of service, whether it be a product, whether it be something you're fixing, something you're selling, it's all about quality of service. Anna: I think part of the reason that you became successful was there is a bit of a reputation for cowboy plumbers back then and you wanted to set yourself apart. Charlie: Yeah, well, again, I had the idea that, I thought that when I first started Pimlico that I was doing anything clever, I just thought it was common sense things. I know common sense isn’t that common. I wrote a list down of all the things – or not all the things, but about 20 items that I've heard over the years that customers get unhappy with a plumber. You can do that in any business you're in. Find that what upsets customers and just do the opposite. So, customers used to be very unhappy about a plumber not turning up on time, not finishing the job, leaving a mess, not clearing away any rubbish not being transparent, making excuses why they're not a job, so I thought just done the opposite. In business I’ve also learned to be honest, if you're not getting there because you've got delayed or you're running late or you can't make it, be honest with the customer. Not keep making excuses about ‘I broke my arm’ or ‘my van’s broken down’. I've learned is that customers don't want excuses. They want results. I understand that financing is essential to the running of a business, especially when you're trying to grow. I know that when you're trying to expand Pimlico plumbers, back in 1990, you sought out help from the bank but unfortunately, they turned you down. Can you go a little bit into what happened there and how you overcame it? Charlie: Yeah, well, the business in 1990 was going okay. And what I wanted to do was buy a different premises to operate from, a larger premises. Basically, I went to the bank and they and they lent me the money to buy this property – it was about a quarter million pounds, this was December 1990. Everything was going great. They lend me that money and then around about April, all of a sudden, the recession’s kicked in, maybe I wasn't that aware of it. The recession kicks in, and then the bank basically comes down, I was getting in difficulties with run-ups and debts and didn’t get on top of things. They came down to reassess the property to see whether I could get some more money on it, keep things going. They actually went the other way and told me it's not worth a quarter million pounds now – that's worth £50,000. So, I’d ripped it all out to refurbish it for when we were going to move in, and all of a sudden, it was a property not finished. Basically, I was trying to get an overdraft and keep things going, or even a loan, but they weren't having none of it. If anything, well, they just went the other way. They said, ‘Look, we want our money back.’ And I know people think they can't force you into it, but I borrowed it on another property that I'd owned. And they said to put that property in an auction and I’d get £45,000 for it. Well, I didn't do that. I sold it for £90,000 in the end. With the property that I had in the I was borrowed the money for, they told me to sell that and give them the money I get on it. Well, I didn't listen to them. Well, I don't like banks anyway, they’re crooks in suits – they lend you an umbrella as long as it’s not raining. Anna: I think people do underestimate the power that banks have, especially in situations like these. Charlie: Well, what you mustn't get into is a situation where the banks running your business, telling you what you can do and what you can't do. And they were difficult with me so I said to myself, ‘I need to get rid of you people’. So, we carried on working, sold a few bits and pieces, made a lot of changes in the business and got rid of the bank. I've changed banks, I don't I'm not sure how good banks are these days with businesses. All I do know is that thing I've been with this bank since about 1991/92. I've never met my bank manager. I never will. There's just no point now – I can't work with them. They just left a bad taste with me, as far as I'm concerned. All I do now with the bank is put money in and take it out. Part-way through business, you decided to steer away from solely doing plumbing into other services like air conditioning, carpentry, commercial heating services, what kind of challenges did you face in shifting Pimlico's business model? Charlie: Yeah, it wasn't overly difficult because what I was finding that, with plumbers and engineers, we were sending them to jobs and then customers had a carpenter and needed an electrician, or they had wall damage and needed a plasterer. I just found it so difficult to recommend people because not everybody works on the policy that we work on or the way that we operate. And again, that what I have to say is that it's only common sense and being very professional. But there are so many bad tradesmen out there – I'm not suggesting that's all over because there's some great tradesmen out there. So, the fact that they kept asking for people, and I wasn't comfortable recommending anybody, we started getting our own people. We started employing a carpenter, employing a builder, employing a plasterer. When you go to a job, and if the customer’s happy with you, and all sudden, you've got to send a carpenter or another tradesman, they’re even happier with you because it just flows nice. And they know what they're going to expect. If we're running it on the same terms, which we did, and it's just developed from there, we we've got roofers, air con, electricians, carpenters, painters, tilers. Yeah, all in everything, I think. Were there any sort of changes in legislation or anything related that you had to deal with in taking on different kinds of tradespeople? Charlie: Well, we've got one set of rules and regulations for everybody, so everybody follows our guidelines. And whatever requirements are needed for electrical work, or gas work or roofing work, there's just a formality. The most important thing is that you've got your rules and regulations worked out and everybody complies with that. If it's a successful model, then why would you need to change anything? You just follow the same pattern. And to this day now, like 40 years down the line, it's the same thing. We're seeing with a lot of small businesses right now that they are indeed changing their own business model, say going and taking more of their service online or offering takeaway service at home meal kits, that kind of thing. How has Pimlico adapted to the changing conditions around COVID-19? Because it's not just a central office, you're going into people's homes as well. I can imagine there is more to do in that respect. Charlie: Well, you're right, the world has changed and it’s changed businesses. And again, you have to improve your quality of service to people. And immediately, what we've done was geared up all our tradespeople that go to people's houses with all the requirements: gloves, shoe covers, sanitisers, sinks in their vans, masks. We've got them all geared up correctly, we’ve also done the same for our office: social distancing, temperature machines we've got in there, all the bits that you need to run proper business. And I don’t think it's a big deal if you think about it. It's just like a few things that you put in place. Unfortunately, a lot of people with things in business, they make it too complicated. We didn't stop throughout the epidemic, we haven't stopped and we won't stop. We were allowed to continue working, being essential workers, but we just made sure that it's a safe working environment. From a customer's point of view, we would bring them up and say that you can just let the engineering leave the door open, you haven't got to be in the same room. He’ll come in, do the job, leave, close the door, then you obviously pay by credit card. And that went down quite well with customers. That isn't so how much the case now. People seem to be getting a little bit more used to the situation, the virus is out there, but some people are very cautious. And we're doing what we're required to do, and it's welcome. How do the rules and the guidelines that you give to employees translate to contractors? Charlie: Look, engineers work on a self-employed basis. Some of them have been with me for 30 years, 10 years, five years, 20 years. There are a couple of differences about holiday, sick pay, but as far as working under their umbrella or working on a rules and regulations, it makes no difference whether you're self-employed or employed, the guidelines are the same. You turn up, you do the job, you do what we want you to do, and that's it. Okay, we've had a couple of problems, but it's no big deal. Another potential difficulty we will be facing in the future, year is we've got changes to IR35, coming in April. I do understand that there has been some ambiguity [for Pimlico] in the past around contractors’ status and their rights. I'm wondering, with these changes coming in, how exactly will that change the way you operate? Charlie: Yeah, look, it won't change the way we operate. What it changes is the contract for that engineer. If it says he’s not self-employed, then yes, the choice is PAYE or he needs to go somewhere else, basically. But again, I'm going to say, I don't think it's a big deal. Unfortunately, if they're not going to let them be self-employed, then obviously, they're not going to earn as much, they're not going to be able to claim so much, sort of tax deductions. But there are pluses – they get holiday pay, sickness and they can claim for unfair dismissal. But our policy isn’t necessarily, we’re not trying to get rid of people, we want to retain our engineers. We went to the Supreme Court on this where one of the engineers evidently had a heart attack, but there was a little bit more in it than that, I don’t know why he had a heart attack, non-related to work, and he was self-employed for seven years. And all of a sudden, he wanted to take the advantages of being employed. And we knew that was incorrect. But we went to the High Court and various other courts and it took about eight years, and the end result the Supreme Court came up with that he should have been an employee, but no big deal – we've changed their contracts – the tax people are happy with it, our accountants are happy with it, and we're happy with it. If there's big challenges out there, you just got to try and challenge it that works for everybody. Contractors have already been hit quite hard by COVID. And I can imagine if employers are less willing to pay increased taxes and contributions, they may be get less work from their existing clients as well. How will these changes affect the balance of employees to contractors that you currently have? Charlie: Well, it’ll affect the balance. If they can’t be self-employed, then they’ll have to be PAYE.  But I don't think we'll be cutting their numbers down. I feel we can address it accordingly and work on something that everybody's happy with. I don't think that it’s a big deal but in the same token it's just changes. And if that's what we have to do, then that's what we do. There's a massive demand for skilled workers who can demand good money. I think if you're paying good money, you’re a good company and look after your staff, and keep them busy all year, then people are going to want to work for you. The last question I want to ask is, as mentioned in the intro, your son Scott has taken over as chief exec. And Pimlico is very much a family business because his children, your grandchildren, are also heavily involved in the business. For our audience out there who have family businesses of their own, how do you set that line between work and family life and keep them separate? Charlie: This is a difficult one, and I'm probably going to say, working with your family doesn't work for everybody. And if it does, work it’s great and if it doesn't work then it's terrible, of course. How do you keep it separate? I just think that, obviously, when you're at work, I don't think family issues come up, or that you get too involved with family things. And obviously, when you’re outside of work, you're going to get involved in a little bit of family work things, but I think it's nice to keep them separate as best you can. I didn't really plan anything but when we’re at work and, as much as we’re family, I don't feel that it's the big part of it anymore. In other words, they’re doing the job, they're happy doing it, we're happy with them. I know it's difficult when you've got talk to a family member about it, but on saying that, most family members understand how you operate, and they follow the guidelines. But of course, there’ll be hiccups, bits and pieces. I think we have about 12 or 13 members of family there and all I can say that it's great because I think we're all drinking from the same teapot. And it seems to work. But yeah, that's been our uphill sort of tasks. I'm on my fourth wife now! I’m joking. It can be difficult, but I think pluses outweigh the minuses. Look, you can't run any business, whether it be your family or just other people working for you, without the ups and downs. With any business there's going to be many sleepless nights, there's going to be many struggling for money, but once you get it going, I mean, there’s no business like your own business. Anna: Of course – I think that's the reason that so many people go for it. Charlie: Yeah, that’s right, and a lot of people that want to start their own business, they're toying with the idea for years and playing around with it. They say, ‘I don’t know when’s the best time and Christmas is coming and winter's coming’ and it comes every year, and then it's, ‘This is bad, and the banks are not lending and interest rates’ and they ask me when's the best time to start your own business. Well, the best time to start your own business is when it suits you. You need to get up there and just make it happen, that's what it's about. All the talking doesn't make you a busy business where actual action does, and you’ve just got to get it started. You got a 10,000-mile journey and that starts with the first step, you've got to make that first step in business. It just develops. I mean, I didn't set out to run the largest independent plumbing company or service company in the UK, I set out just to be a plumber. And once I got the bug a bit of the demand and you can employ somebody, and it goes from there. I say this to anybody starting out or even if you're just a small business, the ways to become successful, obviously, quality of service, I'll always say that's number one. And number two is to employ people take on staff, whether it be friends, family or people you don't know but are believed that you need to employ people to grow your business because this is not about one person. It's a team affair and your business is only as good as the people that work for you.      Anna: Well, I think that is an ideal place to wrap up, so I'll leave it there. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast, Charlie. Charlie: That's been good and obviously if anyone wants to check the website at pimlicoplumbers.com, there are some pieces on there. As Charlie said, you can find out more about him at pimlicoplumbers.com You can also visit small business.co.uk for articles on building your customer base and running a family business. Remember to like us on Facebook at Small Business Experts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lowercase. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode I chat to Theo Paphitis, businessman, retail expert, shopkeeper and former Dragon. We discuss tips retail during COVID-19 and his experiences of surviving school and becoming a business owner with dyslexia.  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on running a retail business and supporting employees with dyslexia. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Theo Paphitis' podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. In this episode we have Theo Paphitis, businessman, retail expert, former Dragon and shopkeeper. Born in Cyprus, Theo came to the UK at age of seven, living in Manchester then London. He left school at the age of 16 with no qualifications after having struggles with dyslexia. He started work as a filing clerk in a Lloyds of London brokerage, moving on to Watches of Switzerland at the age of 18. He had a stint in insurance then returned to retail, taking on names such as Ryman, La Senza and Robert Dyas. In spring 2011, he launched lingerie brand, Boux Avenue. Since then he’s created the Theo Paphitis Retail Group encompassing the aforementioned retail businesses and the London Graphic Centre, which he acquired in 2016. In 2005, Theo joined Dragon’s Den and in 2012 to focus on his growing retail empire. He came back for a few episodes last year to fill in for Touker Suleyman. 10 years ago, Theo started Small Business Sunday, #SBS, where entrepreneurs describe their businesses via Twitter. Theo retweets his favourites to his audience to boost their exposure. Today we’re going to be talking about retail in the age of COVID-19 and what it’s like being a business owner with dyslexia. Anna: Hi Theo. Theo: Hello! That was quite some introduction. Anna: Oh, I know. I tried to shorten it, but it’s just come out as ‘Theo’s done quite a lot of stuff!’ Theo: It keeps me busy. Anna: How are you today? Theo: I’m good, thank you – in a very soggy Wimbledon. Anna: Yeah, it seems like that all over the UK. I’m up in Scotland and it’s much the same. But that’s very much, you know… Theo: I did refrain from butting in there but thank you for doing that for me! Let’s crack on. I’d like to go back to – I believe you were 15 years old at the time – you opened up a school tuck shop, so retail must’ve been in your blood from quite early on. What was the inspiration behind that?   Theo: Well, the inspiration was actually a need. I didn’t even know what retail was. I’d been in shops, obviously, but at that age – 14, 15 – there was a need at the school. We didn’t have a tuck shop. And on the basis that I didn’t enjoy school very much and I wasn’t a model student in classes. When I suggested to the school that they fund me to do so, they jumped at it because I didn’t have to sit in class for too long, being disruptive. I’m sure that was the main reason. I thought it was a great opportunity, it was great fun. It was great to learn on the job, overcome problems – of which there were many – everything from litter to security to stock control. All the things that us shopkeepers do day-to-day now. So, your first retail job was at Watches of Switzerland and you sold a Rolex on your first day. Tell me what that was like and how did it spark your love of retail? Theo: On my first day, it was all very different for me from what I was doing as an office clerk before. There’s no paperwork involved, just loads and loads of shiny things. Watches and all bits and pieces. I spent the morning having my induction by the manager. And then I was let loose on the shop floor, a customer came in and there I was, extolling the virtues of the Rolex Oyster, that I’d only just heard of barely an hour ago. All of the information that’d been fed into me came blubbering out with some authority. And there you go – I had a sale. It was amazing.     We know that one of the things from this year is that online sales have exploded – what other changes in consumer habits have you noticed this year? Theo: When we went into lockdown, I said quite publicly that the longer this goes on for, the more consumer habits will change. And in fact, within the second week, I could see that digital was accelerating at unprecedented rates and I estimated at the time that we’d had at least five years of acceleration in the adoption of digital in the time from the end of March 2020 until the end of June 2020. Eventually, it was always in our businesses plan, investment in the digital side, that a lot of our business would go online. So, we’d already invested quite heavily as a business. But the acceleration in those three months was phenomenal. We weren’t expecting to get that level of increase until about five years’ time. Actually, coming back to that, your business portfolio is made up, as we heard in the intro, of a lot of retail firms that are traditional to the high street. That must mean you have quite a lot of faith in the future of retail on the high street, despite what naysayers might say and an encouragement to move towards more predominantly digital businesses. What would you say to that? Theo: I think that like many retailers, we’ve got two legacy, very traditional brands in Ryman and Robert Dyas. Robert Dyas has been trading for over 150 years and Ryman for over 125 years, so they’ve been a big part of the fascia of United Kingdom high streets over those times. But our services within those and the things that we sell within those businesses have changed quite tremendously in that time. And we always anticipated that some of our stores just wouldn’t make it out of the other side. That was always going to be the case. It was just a matter of when. There’s no point in keeping a store open if you’re the last person standing and nobody’s visiting the high street. Or, in fact, because of short-termism. And, quite honestly, workshy politicians not reviewing the business rates, which in itself has killed so many high streets. It’s not the rent, it’s the ancillary costs. We’d already planned for that. That doesn’t mean we had plans to shut all of our stores – far from it. We just need to make sure that we focus on the stores where there’s a community. That was always the plan and remains the plan. You’ve talked about an acceleration in adopting technology, do you think there will be some sort of push to reduce or reform business rates [in the longer term]? It’s been talked about for some time. Theo: It’s been talked about forever, but I use my words very carefully. I use the word ‘lazy’. I use it a lot when it comes to various people that have held the seat at no.11 that just couldn’t be bothered to put the work in to repurpose business rates. Business rates is an archaic tax from the 1500s. Ye Olde Internet Shoppe would not exist in the 1500s. The Exchequer needs income, of course it needs income, otherwise how are we going to pay for our services? But you can just keep loading it up on what is a very easy tax to collect and then put people out of business because you reach the law of diminishing returns. They needed to repurpose taxation to reflect the new modern and digital age. It’s very difficult for people paying rent and rates when other people are trading out of warehouses and contributing very little. It needs to be balanced – it has always needed to be balanced – but even more so now. Of course, since March, the present Chancellor has absolutely done the right thing in suspending business rates, giving a business rates holiday. That expires in March ’21 and it’ll be interesting to see what he does then. I can’t believe for one minute that he would even contemplate bringing them back. If he does, that would spell the demise of many high streets and many trusted names within those high streets. What do you think should happen instead? Theo: I think we’ve got to relook at the way we pay taxes. It’s very simple – it’s not complicated. It requires work, but we’ve got to look at the different ways of collecting taxation, whether it’s a sales tax or any other form of tax you put on, that is fair and allows people to trade on a level playing field. I think that arguably, for a long time, the worry has been the wealthy individuals who benefit from having those business rates and high costs in place. Theo: The fact remains that, with landlords, we’ve been able to negotiate as footfall has gone down in various parts of the country. We’ve been able to sit down with landlords a lot. We’re taking a lot less money now. If you want us to remain in your store, then we can only afford to pay X or Y and in the main, they’ve agreed. We’ve got so many stores where the rates are higher than the rent. That can’t be right. And obviously, you can’t negotiate with the Exchequer. Absolutely. Do you think there are certain types of businesses that would move into empty high street spaces in the future, especially when things start to settle post COVID-19? Theo: What we’ve seen is the conversion of many high streets into old age people’s homes where they’ve just built loads and loads of retirement homes, sheltered accommodation because it’s in close proximity – right on top of the high street. If that’s what we’re planning – to turn high streets into retirement villages – then that’s a different story altogether because that’s what you’re going to get. But high streets have really been the backbone of the community. So, you start destroying it and everybody stays in their homes and you’ve got millions and millions and millions of vans driving around and polluting the atmosphere, delivering a £4 or a £5 or a £3 product. Does that really make sense? What do you think about a digital tax? Theo: The Exchequer needs to collect income and that’s a great way of doing it.                     I’ll move on a little bit here. In the intro we mentioned Small Business Sunday which, on the day of recording (October 12th), launched 10 years ago yesterday. In your view, what is the greatest success story to come out of SBS? Theo: It’s got 3000 businesses at different sizes, different levels of activity. The biggest success story is the fact that it exists, and it allows small businesses and medium-sized businesses, all of a sudden, to get a leg up, get PR, get a social media boost, support for other SBS winners in the network. It boosts sales. It offers opportunities for them to collaborate. It gets them together at our annual event to hear great speakers, talk to them and inspire them about what the future holds. Don’t forget that it’s really tough to be a small business – 50 per cent of businesses fail within the first two years. And that’s probably normal because they haven’t got the skillset, the information, the support that they need. Some fail and then go on to run really successful businesses because they’ve learned from their failures. So, the whole gambit of SBS is to try and assist to lower that failure rate and give support and all of the things that small businesses need. It’s tough – if you’ve got two or three kids and you’re running a business from your kitchen table and you’ve got to balance a household. Where do you go for help when things aren’t running your way? Who can you talk to that’s having or has had the same experience as you? I can guarantee that someone form SBS has and someone will be able to talk to you about it. And somebody when you’re having a tough time is going to be having a really good time and there’s nothing better than to talk to somebody to bring you out of those doldrums and give you that burst of enthusiasm that you desperately need to get you going. Anna: Sometimes that’s all you need – I’ve seen some of the comments back and forth on the thread and it’s quite the community.   As mentioned in the intro as well, you struggled at school because you have dyslexia. From the research I’ve done, it seems like people with dyslexia felt discouraged at school (‘you have this, so you can’t do that’) but went on to be successful entrepreneurs because they worked hard at their other qualities, like social skills. How does that align with your experience of school and going into business? Theo: Oh, that describes me. When I turned 16, they showed me the door. Not because I was particularly disruptive, but because I was a lost cause. I wasn’t going to get any examinations. Anna: They dismissed you before you even took them? Theo: No, I did sit a few, but I ended up with great big ‘U’s. In fairness, I did get one certificate, and it was a Scottish certificate in colouring in maps. It was geography. And the reason I say it was a Scottish certificate is because we had the most amazing Scottish lady teacher who worked incredibly but had got all of our attention and made it very interesting. I always call it my Scottish certificate in colouring in maps. It was clear school wasn’t for me. Even to get through to 16, I had loads and loads of workarounds to try and get my work and homework done. I couldn’t do it in a traditional way. I was always problem-solving to try and achieve what other kids were achieving in minutes. It took me hours. I always found workarounds to deal with the issues so that when I actually went to work, dealing with issues and problems was a piece of cake – I’d been doing it all of my life. Some kids go to work, who had an academic upbringing at school, sit there and there’s a problem. Now they’ve got a problem. So that was one of the things that I benefited from. Anna: What do you mean when you say workarounds? Could you elaborate a bit? Theo: For instance, my first day at work, I had to go with a picture in my pocket. If I’m doing numbers – which I’m not bad at, to be honest with you – I couldn’t remember my times tables. It was a nightmare. But I could find workarounds. For instance, if I needed to do 12x12, it’d be 10x12 which is 120, and two more equals 24. That’d be 144. Or I’d break it down into fives or threes or ones to get there or find percentages. You always had to find different ways, it takes longer, but you get there. Anna: Exactly – and that’s what’s important. Theo: And then the biggest thing that changed my life was computers. I no longer had to worry about spelling or rubbish handwriting. All of these things I could get over, so I really embraced technology very early. Anna: That’s an advantage in a way, isn’t it? Theo: It is an advantage – and always has been – hence why I embraced eCommerce and digital and I embraced computers and had one of the first computers. I learned to program because there wasn’t any programs to give me what I wanted. I thought, “It can’t be that difficult, can it?” It gives you a push. It’s interesting to see that other entrepreneurs like Lord Sugar, Richard Branson and Jamie Oliver have dyslexia as well. Theo: Well, of course, a lot of dyslexic people are pushed to be entrepreneurs because they can’t get a job anywhere else. The key thing is that that it’s difficult to get a job when you can’t spell or you can’t read very fast. I can read, believe you me, I can read. Give me a contract and I will read it front to back and I will understand it and I will be as good as anybody else, but it will take me three times as long as anybody else to do. It’s just a speed thing. Exactly. Fortunately, we are in a better place now, especially in schools with picking up dyslexia earlier on, allowing longer exams and that sort of thing. But if you’ve got someone out there who’s still at school, has dyslexia and wants to be an entrepreneur, what kind of things would you say to them? Theo: Well, the good news is that it will be one of the least resistant paths open to them. You’ll find it hard to compete in the jobs sector when people have got all of these qualifications and you haven’t. But all I can say to them is make sure that when you become an entrepreneur, become an entrepreneur doing something that you love and are passionate about. You can become an entrepreneur doing lots of things but find something that you’re passionate about because on those dark, wet winter days, when things are not running according to plan and you’re down to your last few quid, you need that passion, that enthusiasm, that drive, to get you out of it. And if you’re doing something you’re not really passionate about, then you might, just might, throw in the towel. But it’s about doing something you’re passionate about. That’s the best chance of success. Anna: Well, that seems like a great place to wrap up. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Theo. Theo: Absolute pleasure. Find out more about Theo at theopaphitis.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on retail and supporting employees with dyslexia. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

In this episode of Small Business Snippets, I chat to John Tusa, author, journalist and one of the founding presenters of BBC’s Newsnight.  He shares his experiences of the boardroom and how risk analysis and cumbersome objectives can overshadow your organisation's core purpose.  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on leadership and creativity in business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Here's the transcript of John Tusa's podcast interview Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have John Tusa, author, journalist and one of the founding presenters of BBC’s Newsnight. He’s served on several boards including The British Museum, the Clore Leadership Programme and, since 2014, the European Union Youth Orchestra. On top of that, John was the managing director of the BBC World Service and London’s Barbican Centre. Today we’re going to be talking about the secrets of the boardroom, as outlined in his latest book, On Board: The Insider’s Guide to Surviving Life in the Boardroom. Anna: Hi John. John: Hi Anna. Anna: How are you doing? John: Pretty well, thank you. Looking forward to this, looking forward to talking to you. Great. So as mentioned in the intro, I’m going to start with your latest book, On Board: The Insider’s Guide to Surviving Life in the Boardroom. In the book, you talk about the importance of having a plurality of expertise, but at the same time make clear that artistic institutions and not-for-profits are very different from businesses. Are there any transferrable lessons from these types of boardroom to the business boardroom?   John: Well actually, my guru around governance, who was a major American businessman called Kenneth Dayton from Minneapolis, and he said that there is no difference between arts boards and cultural boards and corporate boards and, if anything, my British contacts said that cultural boards are much more complicated than business boards because they have so many different layers of accountability. There aren’t two worlds, there’s only one world and that is governance and the relationship between the supervisory board and the executive board. And, if anything, arts and culture boards are more complicated than the others. That’s not me saying it; that’s businesspeople saying it.   Ahh, that is interesting. I understand that, at times, the CEO of a company can also be the chairman [of the company board], but they can be very different roles. How do they differ, exactly? John: The CEO, managing director – call them what you want – are responsible for management, for actually running the place. And they are also responsible for devising the strategic direction of the organisation. The supervisory board are there to advise, help, encourage, monitor, warn and, if necessary, get rid of the chief executive. Again, my great American guru, Kenneth Dayton, said that governance is governance, that is, you look after the overall organisation, and management is management – and you mustn’t confuse them. And that is why anyone who thinks they can be a chairman and managing director, is riding readily, and speedily, for trouble. They’re separate functions. Somebody defined the role between the chairman and the chief executive as partnership, but separation. That is close partnership until the time that you have to sack them. That is an absolutely essential relationship – and a tension – but a constructive tension, at the heart of the governance management business. Right – so this is typically one of the most turbulent relationships you’d find in the boardroom? John: They can be. But on the other hand, I had at least two, maybe three, very good relationships with either the chairman when I was chief executive or the chief executive when I was chairman. And when you get it right, it is extremely productive, it’s very enjoyable and it’s very good for the organisation concerned. Let’s be quite clear – any organisation which has a bad relationship between the chair and the chief executive is in real trouble – and I saw several of those. You can’t take too much trouble over getting that relationship right and making sure the relationship is right. One of the key things about it is absolute openness and transparency. I said to my chief executive at the University of the Arts London, ‘You will always hear it from me first. You will never hear rumours and you will never hear gossip. If there’s anything to deal with, you and I will deal with it first – alone and properly.’ If you do it that way, you have trust, you have openness, you have transparency – and you can have a terrific and successful relationship. For a business owner or director who is fairly new, who isn’t used to the boardroom environment, perhaps is intimidated by it, what advice do you have for them in terms of survival? John: It shouldn’t be survival, in the sense that it is a key part of the relationship. If you are whatever size of enterprise and you have a supervisory board, the assumption is that it is a constructive partnership. But, as I mentioned before, the supervisory board mustn’t interfere in management. And also, a chief executive must make sure that the supervisory board doesn’t interfere in governance. It may be necessary sometimes to say ‘look, this is an executive decision’ or ‘this is part of management’ but it ought not to be a relationship of fear and, in any case, the chief executive should always have some idea of who the chair will be bringing on to the supervisory board. The really important thing is that the chair has to make sure that members of the trustee board are there to provide their individual skills, yes, but also to give good overall advice, but not to interfere. On that basis, it should be positive, harmonious, constructive and lead to the success of the organisation. How about managing tensions that come up between member of the board – what’s the best way to go about resolving those? John: It all depends what they are, but if there are tensions between individual members, you might have to decide that one of them is in due course invited to step down. Or it’s very important for the chair to make it clear if a member is overstepping their mark, being too intrusive, taking up too much time or being too unnecessarily dominant. The chair is responsible for the way the board works and they have to make it clear. I had one case at the University of the Arts London where I was chairman of the court of governors and one of the members of the court was the trade union representative and he refused to understand that he was there to look after the interests of the university as a whole and not just the trade union members. He would stand up and he would harangue the court as if we were a trade union meeting. I put up with this for two meetings and then I had a huge row with him and told him that this was not an acceptable way of behaving. It was a big public row, I didn’t enjoy it and in a way I regretted it but it made it clear to him and to everybody that that was not how the court was going to run and it worked very much better afterwards.    Anna: In the book you talk about managing egos. I suppose it’s just a case of reading the situation and on balance knowing how to deal with different types of personality in the boardroom. John: Yes, in general and overwhelmingly, the people I sat on boards with, who are people with real authority and substance and responsibility in the areas they came from, overwhelmingly understood that they were there to support the organisation. You are holding in trust for others. It’s not something where you play individual games with it. And overwhelmingly, the people I sat on boards with understood that very well and left their egos at the door. Absolutely. In the past I knew you’ve spoken about having ‘the wrong ambition’. Tell me a little more about what you mean by that and how it can affect your standing as a leader. John: I think that sometimes in life, and this is nothing to do directly with governance, that you may misjudge what your abilities are or what you might be doing. If you want this example, the worst one was when I decided to accept the offer to be head of a Cambridge college and I did that for all the wrong reasons. I did that because it seemed a posh thing to do, which it was. It seemed a good address, which it was. It was absolutely the wrong job for me. I shouldn’t have touched it and I lasted around six or seven months. There’s a sense of what can I do, what can I do well and when am I being prodded by a false ambition and false vanity? That’s an important part of self-preservation. There may also be some times when you shouldn’t accept a chairmanship. For a very short time, I had the post of chairman of the Victoria and Albert Museum and chairman of the University of the Arts London. That was, in retrospect, very unwise. Fortunately, the people at the University of the Arts London thought, ‘well, if he’s going to be chairman of the V&A as well, it’s obvious that that will be his first priority’ and at a very early stage said, ‘look, we’re worried about this, and we don’t think it will work. Would you like to think about it?’ And when I thought about it, I realised that they were absolutely right. It won’t work and once again, I’ve gone into that for the wrong kind of ambition. There will be a clash, and because I’d said yes to the University of the Arts London first, I stood down from the chair of the V&A. So that was the wrong kind of ambition and thank goodness, I was saved from getting into, what could have been, a very confused situation. Talking more about the board as a whole, in terms of chaos and crises, there’s possibly no bigger than what we’ve been experiencing over the past months. How do you manage difficulties in the boardroom when you’re going through something like a global pandemic?       John: With difficulty, and I think I’d try to go back to the basic principles of management and governance. Say, if I were chair of some organisation, I would expect the board of management to come up with a strategy – six months, one year, eighteen months, two years – first a strategy for survival, then a strategy for development then a longer term strategy. That would be put to the supervisory board, we would look at what the financial implications were, decide whether it was doable or not doable and then there would be a process of the supervisory board reviewing what management suggested, sometimes suggesting less, sometimes suggesting more, sometimes suggesting that they should be more ambitious in these times. You can’t, for example, because there’s a pandemic, just say ‘we’ll stop doing anything’ because actually, the implications are too great. So the times are tough but the way that people behave in them makes it even more important that they behave as a good board and executive together should behave. The behaviour shouldn’t change.    I’d like to go a little bit off-piste here. You’ve said that the BBC increasingly exercises ‘business dogma over creative values.’ What do you mean by that and how do you maintain creative values in a growing business? John: I come back without apology to ‘why are we here? Why are you here? Why is the organisation here? Why is the new organisation starting up?’ Because somebody wants to do something.   Business tools are just that: they’re a set of tools. If you are observing them and that’s all you’re doing, I don’t think that you’ll ever succeed. There are toolkits to help you succeed. What worries me about the BBC is to, too often, they go into forms of business behaviour which lose sight of the nature and the purposes of broadcasting and programmes and the needs of the audience. I’ll give you one example which I think may help. That is the whole business of risk analysis. Everyone says you need risk analysis and you’ve got to be very serious, you’ve got to know what’s coming over the hill. On one occasion we were looking at risk analysis for the university at the University of the Arts London. By the time the centre had listed its risks, every one of the six colleges had listed their risks and different faculties had listed their risks, it was about six or seven pages and, as I recall, about 130 risks. It’s ludicrous. And it was the chair of the audit committee, who’s an accountant, who said ‘I can’t deal with this, nobody can deal with this’. He said ‘let’s have eight, ten, a dozen, maybe – a dozen main strategic risks. He said let’s get rid of the rest. This becomes a separate activity in its own right, dreaming up risks. It’s ludicrous. And he also said, ‘if you’re going to have a risk register, why not have an opportunity register?’ He said that risk and opportunity are different sides of the same coin. Anna: Yeah, I understand. And I think it’s a good exercise for business owners to have this opportunity register. John: Can I also say about objectives? A good colleague of mine, actually he was the chair of the British Museum and he used to run Unilever. On one occasion, he was at the gathering of chairs of the major cultural institutions, had a meeting organised by the department of culture, media and sport. They were discussing – the chairs and the department, ministers and so on, the whole business of objectives. This man who used to chair Unilever said, ‘ you know, in my years of chairing Unilever, we would set about seven or eight objectives, and if I got most of the people, most of the time, to work to half a dozen of them, I thought we were doing very well.’ And he noticed that the secretary of state looked a little pale. Afterwards a senior civil servant came up to him and said, ‘you know when you said you could work to eight objectives and if six were observed, you were doing very well? He said that we in the department set 48 objectives this morning.’ That again is an example of a management tool becoming something completely useless. And by the by, the man who invented objectives said, ‘if an objective isn’t being met, you may have the wrong one. Ditch it, think of another one.’ That’s not a great use of your resources. I guess my final question is what advice do you have about setting objectives in the boardroom? John: I’ve always had a, what some would regard as an over-light view of objectives. I was managing director of the Barbican Centre for 12 years. In general, I say this without false modesty, it was a much better organisation at the end of 12 years than it was at the beginning. It wasn’t just me, of course, that was my team. And from time to time, people would say to me ‘did the corporation of London set you strict objectives, what you had to do? And I said no, they never said anything, but I knew that I worked to four objectives: 1) run a good arts centre 2) run it within the financial limits that you have 3) bring credit to the corporation of London so that everyone can say ‘isn’t the corporation of London wonderful? They fund the Barbican and 4) don’t insult the Lord Mayor. In 12 years, we didn’t need any other objectives. I would say strip yourself of these things and say,‘are they helping me do the things that I want to do, what the organisation needs done or are they a substitute for making sure the organisation works properly?’ And if you can shed all that and keep things clear, then the governance will work better and the management will certainly work better. What about critics that would say that you need SMART goals that are measurable and based on precise numbers? John: The answer to that is measures measure what measures measure. Measures hardly ever get to the heart of what an organisation is about. You look at the finances the whole time, of course you do. In the case of the BBC World Service, you looked at the audiences. You’re aware of numbers, you use them, but you don’t say that such and such a number is a success, and if we don’t it must be a failure. It’s much more complicated than that. They may be a guide, but they are not the most important thing which determines the success or failure of an organisation. Anna: Absolutely. I think in business today we do have a way of getting caught up in it and it causes a lot of tension and anxiety. Where, as you say, remembering what you’re doing, what people need and what keeps it going should be at the heart of it. Well, that seems like an ideal place to finish. Thanks ever so much for coming on the podcast, John. John: Thank you very much, Anna. Nice to talk to you. John’s latest book, On Board: The Insider’s Guide to Surviving Life in the Boardroom, has been published by Bloomsbury and is available now from Amazon and all other major book retailers. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on leadership and creativity in business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening. 

In this episode I chat to Jenny, businesswoman, investor and former Dragon. We discuss tips for investment in the time of COVID-19, exit planning and whether your business should still be accepting cash. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on raising capital and choosing the right payment system. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Jenny Campbell's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Jenny Campbell, businesswoman, speaker, investor and former Dragon. Rather than going down the traditional education route, Jenny left school at 16 to become a cash counter and cashpoint filler. She worked her way up in the banking world and by the age of 23 she earned her banking qualifications and a Chartered Institute of Bankers prize. Her first taste of running a business was when she bought RBS-owned cash machine firm, Hanco, which she rebranded as YourCash Europe. At the time, Hanco had expanded too quickly and was making a loss. The company underwent a major operational restructure overseen by Jenny. In 2016 she sold the business for £50m. During her time on Dragon’s Den, Jenny invested in companies including Didsbury Gin, Look After My Bills, Driven Media and Carun UK. These days, she is the vice chair of the Prince’s Trust Enterprise Fellowship Programme and supports the Young Enterprise and the New Entrepreneurs Foundation. She’s also a dog breeder and an accredited breed judge. Anna: Hi Jenny. Jenny: Hi. Anna: How are you doing? Jenny: I’m really good, thank you. Really good. Anna: Great. OK, let’s get cracking. One of your mantras is to live by corporate standards but breathe like an entrepreneur. Tell us a bit more about what you mean by that. Jenny: Yeah, that really came out of the time when I was taking over the cash machine business then owned by RBS. I found the business to have got enormous growing pains [from] when it was incorporated in 2000 and sold to RBS in 2004. It had grown enormously fast and it did have an impressive customer and asset base, but it had grown up on very simple – if any – policies, procedures, people, codes of conduct, etc. So, the business I came to in 2006 was in quite a lot of chaos, to be honest. But I found that all the skills I’d learned over my banking career, which you don’t really appreciate at the time, but I could apply them to this business, particularly around change management, turnaround scenarios, risk management, process mapping – all those corporate things. I could apply them to this business and that’s what got me through the first two years in getting it ship shape. It was losing a lot of money at the time and by the time we got two or three years down the path it was breaking even and that lead into the management buyout. On reflection, when it came to selling the business, before that even became a management team buyout, I said to RBS, ‘Look, you’ve helped put the corporate procedures into this business but it now needs to have its entrepreneurial wings in order for it to be nimble and compete against its competitors in the UK.’ It’s important for a business of that size to have corporate standards, but it also needed to be nimble in terms of decision-making and innovation and product development, which we weren’t at that stage by still being part of a bank, due to how bureaucratic that can be in a big corporate.       How do you introduce ‘entrepreneurial wings’, so to speak? Jenny: Start with the people. One of my big transformations was the people – the quality of the people, the culture of the people. I turned over a lot of people in the early days, those who didn’t have the right skills or attitude to drive the business forward. I created a real people culture in the business: work hard, play hard, lots of rewards for delivering performance, lots of fun as well. And the ability for the staff to feel they had their own initiative to drive the business forward [was important]. You could always put your hand up to suggest this or get on with doing things and mistakes were made – you wouldn’t get berated for that – it was, ‘Get up, you’ve grazed your knees, let’s move on’. It was a real ‘can do, will do, want to’ attitude in the business and we lived it and breathed it from the top, right the way down.      On your time in Dragon’s Den, perhaps it was clearer that you’d come from this corporate background and moved up in the banking world, as opposed to starting up a business from scratch like some of the other Dragons and the other businesses coming in. What do you feel your experience brought to the table over the other Dragons who had started their businesses from nothing? Jenny: I came to pure entrepreneurship myself later in life when I went to Hanco (which then became YourCash), so I was in my mid-40s by then. But as I reflected on how I turned from corporate career to entrepreneur, some of my reflections were, firstly, around my childhood where my grandparents were all entrepreneurs – builders, printers, etc. in my local town, so I came from quite an entrepreneurial background. Yes, I went into a profession, but that was seen in those generations as safer and more secure and you’ve got the pensions and all of that good stuff. But I also dealt with entrepreneurs almost every day in my banking career, just on the other side of the desk. One of my roles was as a business relationship manager and I had 200 clients out in the community. Everything from famers to builders to lorry driver to retailers. I was working alongside those entrepreneurs for all of my banking career, so I just felt like I’d stepped from one side of the desk to the other, to be honest – and it’s in my DNA. What did you find was the biggest difference of going from one world into the other?     Jenny: Freedom, scary, exciting. You realise that there’s a lot that rests on your shoulders. The first month after we’d bought the business out, instead of me receiving a salary cheque on the 18th, I had to think about paying a quarter of a million pounds’ worth of wages every month and you feel responsible for people’s homes and families and that sort of thing. But equally, all of the freedom that comes with that and the responsibility to keep that business going and grow it.     Coming back to Dragon’s Den. Look After My Bills, in your own words, ‘negotiated hard’. What advice would you have for business owners who are looking for funding but are that sort of position? What negotiation tips do you have and what would win you over? Jenny: I think what wins me and many investors over is that, besides investing in that business and that product, you are ultimately investing in that person or persons. With the people standing in front of you, I’ve got to get a rapport with them straight away – that I admire them, I believe them, I’m confident that they can deliver on their proposal. The boys, Will and Henry from Look After My Bills, did negotiate hard, but that showed me that they had the experience to do that. I admire that. One of my other entrepreneurs accepted my offer before I’d even finished making it, but he was much younger and much more inexperienced. Will and Henry did a great job of negotiating and Tej (Lalvani) and I got a very small slice of Look After My Bills, but it proved to be a great investment as they sold to GoCompare ten months later and we got a very nice return on a very small investment. Anna: I think it’s interesting that because of them not budging much on their offer, Peter said that it shows a certain level of naivety, so it must be quite different between investors.     Jenny: Yes, but there’s quite a bit of gameplay in the negotiations – you’ve all got to play your own part. There’s admiration behind that hard negotiation stance as well. As an entrepreneur you’ve got to have some emotional intelligence as to where that tipping point is with the investor. You can push them so far, but you’ve got to realise where you’ll lose that investor, where they just going to sign out and say, ‘I’m out’.     Let’s come back to raising finance. Of course, we’re going through a difficult time at the moment – this is the first of the remote recordings we’re doing because of COVID-19. What advice do you have about raising finance in particularly tough times such as these?   Jenny: Is it any different in these times to pre-COVID? If anything, there are more options because of Microbusiness Bounce Back Loans etc around, so my advice is probably the same: cover a lot of bases in looking for those options. First of all, think about the structure of what it is that you’re looking for – are your able to take any debt into the business? That’ll save you giving away equity. Equally, sometimes it’s a strategic thing to find an equity investor because you get smart investors in the business who will help to propel your business further than if you were trying to do it through the existing equity structure. It’s always a balance of what your business can take and what it needs and that strategic aspect. I’m working with one of my businesses now on doing our first fundraise. I’m just educating them on taking those steps really carefully, to find the right structure of equity and debt and, crucially, the right people to come into the business. I always say to them, ‘This is like a snooker game: it’s not just about getting the first red ball down, but it’s about getting the black ball down, which is your exit.’ Every step is fundraise is important – you must think about how that impacts the next step and your eventual exit. But I think all those usual funding routes are there and, if anything, there is pent up demand from private equity and VCs to get money invested right now. Has COVID-19 affected the way that you invest in or the companies that you’d be interested in investing in now? Jenny: I don’t think it’s affected the way that I invest. Apart from not meeting in person, we’ve all got very used to tiled Zoom screens or Teams or Google. We’ve all got used to those virtual meetings, so the way in which I invest has not changed. Maybe where I invest has changed. Some areas you might have thought of investing in pre-COVID, but in post-COVID they’re either not the right areas or there are certainly better areas which have capitalised on COVID. I always say that wherever there are challenges, there are opportunities, and it’s just watching which ones will rise out of this. My Didsbury Gin business pivoted into hand sanitiser and they’ve done a fantastic job. Did I think I’d ever be invested in hand sanitiser? No! But it was the right thing to do and they’ve done very well. Anna: It’s been very much extremes – either a company has done very well or struggled quite significantly. Jenny: But that’ll be the true test of the entrepreneur in dealing with that. My eldest son has three restaurants in London, and it has not been an easy time. However, he’s probably going to come out of this leaner, fitter, stronger and with a different strategic path, which will actually be a better one. You as an entrepreneur have personally got to have the resilience, the foresight and the vision to deal with that. And that’s what the key strength of an entrepreneur is. Anna: And going digital has helped a lot of businesses. Ones that didn’t have a website before are very quickly learning and moving online. Jenny: Yes – you’ve got to go where the consumer is going to go which is a huge shift to online as you say.    I’d like to ask a couple of questions about your views in business. I’ve read that your plan wasn’t to become a business owner, rather, you ‘take things when they arise’ and when your children were young, you’d ‘just think about the year ahead’, contrary to popular business advice of planning one, three, five years in advance. What’s your view on planning vs spontaneity in business? Jenny: I mean, I always say that when I was 16, 18, 25, I didn’t really see much further ahead than the next year. As you get older, you tend to plan your runway out a bit more. But it’s always a balance for a business owner of never losing sight of today and the detail you need to do of today while balancing that with a vision of the future. And that’s a tricky thing sometimes – you can be lost in the weeds on a day-to-day basis and never have that time to think about the future. But you can find different places to do that future thinking. I remember when I was very busy in YourCash with the turnaround work. Where my vision and strategy used to come from was when I was on the running machine at the gym in the evening or in the bath. I used to come back fuelled with what we need to do differently, so you just need to find those spaces to let your head clear and think about the future of the business. You must do that and not just be lost in the day-to-day. Now I think I plan much further ahead, hence it’s actually driven my exit of YourCash because I’d been at the business for ten years. And I had half an eye on where cash was going as well in the future which proved to be quite prophetic. And equally I wanted another ten years in business doing other things, so focusing on the end game is quite important.      My next question was going to be about your exit from YourCash. Talk us through your exit plan – when did it begin, how did it unfold, did it change? Jenny: When you reflect on these things, again, I think it happened on the day I did the management buyout in 2010. The reason for that was as soon as the business became independent from RBS, I straight away started getting courted by other independents to amalgamate with them, so I realised from day one of year one that there was an opportunity for a trade sale. But I knew it wasn’t going to be right then when I put all of my energy and passion into buying this business out and mortgaged my home and I was on a journey and I was going to sell at an optimum time. But knowing those courtiers were out there, I played that dance with them for five years and it eventually reeled one of them in there for an exit. So there, you can see I was planning, even in 2010, to exit, probably five to six years down the path, which is what I did. I think in any market, I’ve seen in the supermarkets, in industry, etc. I’d say all businesses compete on the ground. But at top level, CEOs all meet each other at conventions and industry gatherings, and all have quite a professional and grown up relationship. I always had those relationships with the bosses of the other businesses and there were always muted conversations, seeing if there were any areas of cooperation and synergies between us. There’s a lot of dancing around handbags before you come to the formal marriage. Anna: I suppose it’s like networking of any kind, isn’t it? You’ve got to build it up quite slowly. Jenny: And it’s important to do that. That’s a really good point – I had extensive networks across my industry, not just in the UK but across the globe. I would take plane trips across the globe to go to certain conventions to make sure I had face time with people, so I was out there and present and had a really good black book.     Finally, given your background with YourCash, what do you make of cash vs contactless, especially in this COVID-19 landscape? Is it still worth it for businesses to accept cash? Jenny: Before I sold the business, there was also a challenge externally around the future of cash. And I think cash is still here for another generation in this country. It’s very entrenched in this country as it is in other countries such as Ireland and Germany. Yet if you look at other countries like the Nordics, they’ve been almost cashless for a very long time so where do we sit in all of this? I still think there’s a place for cash in the UK for a while because I don’t think we have all of the systems to donate to charities, to pay for certain things for the elderly and the disadvantaged, so all of the systems aren’t there yet to digitally support moving to totally non-cash. I do think there is a place for it and, to that end, that it’s important for retailers and businesses to accept cash, because not everyone is able or ready to move to digital. The consumers have to be educated and cajoled but not forced, if you know what I mean. Yeah, of course it’s important in terms of budgeting or for people who may not be best able to manage their money. Do you think we’ll ever go completely cashless and if so, at what point? Jenny: [laughs] Crystal ball again… I think we will, it depends how you define cashless, if you mean totally cashless. Surely in the next 25 years we’d go cashless, I would’ve thought, providing all of the systems are there to cope with that. But if you look at the young people of today, they just don’t carry cash – at all. And I myself would have always had cash with me and never have I used Apple Pay so much as in the past three months, and I’m much more comfortable with it now. That has forced buying habits but equally, I doubt very much that older people have changed their buying habits and the disadvantaged need to work with cash as well. Anna: Well, I’ll wrap up there unless there’s anything you’d like to add. Jenny: No, thank you for letting me come on your podcast. I’m delighted to come on any time and have a chat and happy to do it any other time you wish. Anna: Thank you for coming on the podcast. You can find out more about Jenny at jennybcampbell.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on raising capital and choosing payment systems. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Welcome back to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. Today’s episode features professional performance coach, Phillippa Hurrell, who shares practical and insightful tips and advice on how small business owners can look after their wellbeing in these high-pressured and stressful times. Covering healthy habits, how to understand stress to combat negative thoughts and how to increase productivity, the recording is packed full of practical tips every small business owner can start implementing today. For more advice on running your small business, head over to the UK Domain.

In this episode I chat to Sherry Coutu, a serial entrepreneur, angel investor and one of the leading names in the UK digital sector. We talk about tips for investment pitches, time management and difficulties in the tech sector. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on raising capital. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read Sherry Coutu's podcast interview instead? Please note that this podcast was recorded before COVID-19 became prevalent in the UK. Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Sherry Coutu, a serial entrepreneur, investor and advisor. She’s also on the board of Founders4Schools, Workfinder, Raspberry Pi, the Department of Culture Media and Sport (DCMS), Pearson and the London Stock Exchange. We’ll be discussing the most common slip-ups that businesses make when pitching to investors and the most pressing issues in the digital sector. Anna: Hello, Sherry. Sherry: Hello. Anna: It’s lovely to meet you. How are you doing? Sherry: Yeah, I’m very well, thank you. Good to see you. Great. OK, I’d like to start off by going back to the beginning. As the intro suggests, your background is in digital and tech. You were a developer and programmer before you became an entrepreneur and an angel investor. What was it like being a female developer at the time you started out? Sherry: Well, I’ve never been a male developer. I think I came to it thinking it wasn’t that unusual being a female developer. I had studied at EF International and some other women had gone into digital when I was at the London School of Economics studying so it didn’t seem that unusual. I’d joined a large consulting company and that large consulting company had a number of women in that intake and we were all programming. It didn’t seem that abnormal to me. I was doing things that I thought were interesting and I was learning skills that I didn’t find that difficult and that I enjoyed, so it was pretty easy by and large. I didn’t know at the time how unusual what I was doing was or would be seen afterwards. When did that become apparent? Sherry: I don’t know. Again, I don’t approach things on a gender basis. I saw other people that I liked who were doing work that I enjoyed, and we had projects which were interesting. When did it become apparent? You do sort of notice that you’re often the only woman in the room, and it was probably afterwards that I thought, ‘Oh, that’s odd. It’s no longer 50/50 – it’s a lot less than that’. It didn’t bother me that much – I was pretty absorbed in what I was doing. It was really interesting work. It’s a good way to look at it and some women thrive on that kind of atmosphere as well. It’s a similar situation for investors. What were the most common pitching mistakes you saw from businesses pitching to you? Sherry: Well, I think there are a couple – I was thinking about your question earlier. And I think there's a couple of common issues. One is not researching. I'm a member of the Cambridge Angels and have been members of HBS Angels as well. And if an investor comes to you and they haven't researched who they’re in the room with, that is really common blooper, and it's not a sensible one. I think if I had advice for them, it's to research who you're pitching to and know what's in their portfolio and to know what they've what they've done before. I think, having somebody explain to me something that, clearly, if they'd looked at my background, they would understand that I knew. It's a waste of their time, whereas you can get into more detailed things right away otherwise. The other issue, something that is unforgivable to me as an investor is not understanding who your customer is. Or demonstrating your keenness to delight that customer. A lack of focus on that is really annoying to me. I think the only reason we are given opportunities as entrepreneurs is because we can delight customers and create things that will help them in their life in a multitude of ways. And I think a lack of customer focus is annoying to me. And it's usually makes for a fairly short meeting. And it definitely means that I won't follow up because, it's like, well, why are you doing this? The first question I'm often asking is why are you trying to solve this problem? Who are your customers? What does this do for them? Yeah, exactly. So, encouraging better work experience at school is a key focus for you especially just now, what kind of barriers do you think that small employers face when taking on work experience pupils? Sherry: Work experience for people in school and in university is something that I'm really keen on. I don't think of it as barriers. I think all small businesses have projects that they need to get done. You can ask a full-time permanent employee who's already working full tilt to do a project, or you can think, ‘Are there ways that I can get other people from outside my company that might have a fresh view, who I don't have to offer a permanent job to, to get this project?’ To me, the biggest issue there is as a small business person is finding people to do those extra projects that I really would like to do for my customers. Maybe it's so that I can be more obsessed with my customers and get them more focusing on a new product development or customers in a new country or in a new city. But I think that current students at university, supplemented possibly by students doing their A Levels, are a great way of getting projects done quickly and efficiently. And hey, you might even be able to hire the student who is doing the work for you afterwards. But we all have projects, we've all got dozens of projects. Maybe it's sitting down and thinking of which of the projects I have that would be suitable for five students doing a month or five students doing a couple of weeks, breaking it down into something that can be accomplished that will be meaningful to me as a business. Taking it back to the start, for an employer that has never done work experience before, has never offered a kind of programme of sorts – Sherry: They don't need a programme. They've got projects all the time. And we all have projects. I think there are big company ways of approaching work experience and there are small company ways of approaching work experience. The big company ways tend to be structured programmes that happen in June or July. And they might be quite cumbersome on the company. What I've seen work brilliantly for small companies, small and medium sized companies and start-ups and scale-ups are joining project teams, or all working on a project that the employer wants to get done that can't get done any other way. And that means that for the supervision of that project, you've got four people on it, but you put together the brief that might take you a tiny bit of time, or you could use Workfinder, we've got more than 100 briefs that are appropriate to ask students at university. You could take one of our briefs of, well, you might be thinking about this, here's how you do this type of project. You brief them on the first day, you touch base with them for half an hour just to make sure that they're going along the right path for the length of the project, and then you get them to present the project view at the end. I think it's great. And then you use it, because it's a project that will help you do something more for your customers that you haven't been able to do, because everybody's really busy. I mean, we always are pressed for time in small businesses and large businesses. Yeah, absolutely. What's the kind of state of things at the moment in terms of small businesses taking on work experiences? Is it quite common? Or could it be done more widely? Sherry: Well, I would love it to happen more widely. But it happens more often in start-ups and scale-ups than it does in large companies. We published this at the Gallup Institute earlier this year, that it was it was more likely that they had taken on students both at university and at school to do those extra projects in small and medium-sized companies. For me, I've got endless projects. I'd rather have a constant stream of people. And I think the other one of the other barriers is that large companies tend to do it in the summer, but when we spoke to small and medium sized companies, they had projects all year round, and they didn't want to be constrained to having to do it in July or something like that. With lots of other small companies that we work with, it worked fine around it Founders4Schools fitted in through throughout the year so that it works better with them. Anna: I suppose they have the advantage as well because They don't have the processes and the departments to go through that larger businesses do. Sherry: Yeah, exactly. And they may not and they'll have urgent projects that pop up, maybe it's a pitch, maybe it's a pitch for a customer and what you need is somebody to ask, ‘Well, can you do a bunch of customer research for me?’ We don't know these people, use Google, use LinkedIn. Yeah, help me put together this pitch. But there's lots of really good projects that help people who are at school and university understand what work experience is. It's deeply meaningful to the company, it also gives them a proper sense of what it would be like to work for that company. But it's risk-free because maybe it's a week, maybe it's two weeks, maybe it's a month and they can choose, they get the project done, they decide if they love it, or they hate it. If they love it, they can keep on talking if they don't love it, they can try different project and a different type of company and see if they like that industry better. Actually, as lately pertains to your expertise and for companies in the digital sector, and they're experiencing a lot of upheaval at the moment – politically, financially in so many different ways. What would you say are the most prominent issues affecting the digital sector right now? Sherry: Well, most recently GDPR was a change. I think was a change for the good because it protected consumers and customers and made sure that all companies were being mindful of whose data it was that they had the privilege of being a custodian of. So, I think I think there's that. In the UK, I'm not going to say that word [Brexit], but it's been harder. It's been harder to retain people from Europe for reasons that are outside of our control, and that's tricky. Attracting people who have the right skill set is also really difficult because there's been a sequencing issue with small companies, we create lots of jobs, but they are jobs in agile management and data science. Schools and universities aren't yet churning out people who have those skills. And I think solving that issue so that we small digital companies don't suffer from a skill shortage any longer is certainly very much on my mind. And I hope to make some contribution to that agenda. Anna: It feeds back into the work experience as well, doesn't it? You teach them as early as possible and let them know what opportunities are out there. Sherry: Yeah. And I think it’s understanding that you're not going to have the same job for 30 years, and actually, that really sounds quite boring anyway. Let’s sort of just assume that we need the framework for working here on this type of project for this type of company for a period of time and then we'll move on and we'll do something else. The needs of the customers will change. And our needs as we go through our own lifetime change as well. Often we'll work full time, we might work very flexibly when we're having children. And then once they're off at university, we might go back up to full-time or, like me, choose a portfolio of things, which is like having a bunch of part-time jobs, all of which I love. But I love the flexibility of this. If you listen to LinkedIn, the average person now has 25 jobs between graduation and retirement, seven different identifiable career streams. What's your next career stream? I mean, it's kind of neat when you think about it that way. What would you say to small business owners who maybe have trouble establishing what skills their workforce needs, and maybe the resources well, to provide them? Sherry: Well, I think there are some great online resources. For staff I use LinkedIn Learning quite a lot. For coding skills, there's Coursera, there's Udacity, there's Futurelearn, there's a lot of free online courses that allow us to upskill our staff. I think we all need to be learning all of the time. If we don't invest in ourselves as the leader of a small business and we don't invest in our staff then well, it might be harder to retain people, it might also be harder to fulfil those customer orders because they'll be asking us for stuff that we don't know how to do. I think I a commitment to continued learning and allowing and encouraging creativity in ourselves and in the people that work for us as a culture of learning is really important. Actually, now that we're touching on it. You fit a lot into your days and obviously, there's the continual upskilling as well. What kind of time management tips do you have for our listeners who may be struggling and a bit stretched? Sherry: I'm sure anybody who knows me doesn't necessarily think that I'm great at managing my time. But I try to. I think if you're a portfolio, it's quite helpful because you compartmentalise things and you're context switching. That keeps you fresh. It also keeps you managing quite closely. Something that I have used for a long time is trying to be at home 20 out of 30 nights, especially when the kids were at home and younger, being at home 20 to 30 nights a month. And if you've got that rule that you will be at home by 6pm or earlier if you can, that allows you to show the commitment that you have to your family and to yourself. I try to exercise as much as I should. I'm not sure I think probably in the last month, I have definitely broken my rule. But I've got I've got training set up in January, February and March and it's scheduled into my diary. I try to schedule things. I do try to review on a weekly and a monthly basis. Am I content with how I'm spending my time? And when I went to the rule of 20 or 30 nights at home by 6pm, I found that because there's so many interesting things going on all the time. And I wanted to do everything I literally did find myself out every night. And then you think, ‘My God, I haven't really seen my children. I haven't spent any time with my husband, and I don't feel good about that.’ And so I just sort of put a hard and fast rule and it's like, nope, this is how I'm going to do it from now and it works. Are you working when you're home at 6pm? Or is that a cut-off point when you stop working? Sherry: I'll stop working. Not necessarily for the day – I might go in and back on it between 10pm and 11pm and just sort of plan out the next day. I do tend to be crazily busy. Even if it's just planning out what you're supposed to wear, because you've got this little jingle jangle of meetings and you think, ‘Good Lord, what's going to navigate through that set of meetings of that day, what am I going to wear?’ Just sort of thinking about the how you're going to execute the next day, if it tends to be mixed up. I don't ever go to an office and sit at a desk. I think, ‘I'm going to be home with family. I'm not going to have my phone on, I'm going to focus,’ and that gives them the right message. And it also gives me the release that you need as a person from work. Do you rely more on people or tech to sort of help you organise your schedule? Sherry: Both. For the tech, I use calendar Google Calendar. I'm not making an advertisement for Google. But I think many small businesses use it rather than some of the more traditional ones. And if I'm meeting someone, I asked them to append in what the agenda is and what the papers are. My call forward file is not a physical call forward file that say, it's literally in the description of that. And I find that really helpful as I prepare for the meetings, I find the ability to invite people to meetings from within your diary. And then if you move it, they all get notified and you don't have to do all of that is really helpful. I do have an executive assistant (EA) who I adore and she's kind of a magician, because I tend to want to do too many things than might actually be possible, and she makes it a lot more possible than it might otherwise be. I do depend on her and enjoy the fact that she helps and is very au fait with and good at using technology as well, which is helpful to me. If you're a small business owner and you could have an entourage of sorts, what kind of people would you hire in terms of, say, a PA or an accountant? Sherry: Well, I would certainly use LinkedIn very aggressively. I probably am on LinkedIn two hours a day as I prepare for meetings as I research the people that I want to pitch these sorts of things are the people that I'm about to speak to. I think it's really important to use tools that are there. An accountant? Yes, you definitely need accountants. I think in small businesses, there are great part time accountants that you can that you can have. And I'm a real fan of those because you don't necessarily need a full-time one. And there's a lot of particularly women returners to work who have been full-time finance directors and they're there with kids and they want to work on a part-time basis. And I think they are a godsend to many, many, many small businesses. Anna: Seems to work for everybody, right? Sherry: Yeah, absolutely. You may be a small company of ten people, you might need someone who's doing finance a couple days a week well, you need somebody who's a returner, returning to work for that. And on PA I don't know if everybody needs me know, there's lots of people that I know that work in large tech companies that no longer have PAs there's many people who have the whole senior management team has a sort of shares in EA or a PA, I think many people and in fact, it's been shown that 65 per cent of those jobs have already disappeared because people are using technologies more aggressively. If you look at the research on what jobs are disappearing, sadly, PAs and EAS are definitely far less prevalent than they were five years ago, but I couldn't be without LinkedIn. I also use a service called Accompany which will sort of harvest your diary and then it'll give you notes about the backgrounds of the people that you're meeting the day before. And if you don't use it, you should use it because it's amazing. I find those I find those really, really helpful. Well, I realise you're busy lady, so I'll wrap up by coming back to your expertise as an investor. You were an early investor in firms like LoveFilm and Zoopla saw for new tech companies looking to pitch what would you be looking for in their pitch? Sherry: Well, for me, solving a problem that matters is the most important thing. I'm particularly interested in the future of work. It's been a real interest for 20 years that the skills crisis is getting worse. And I am interested in working with others to fix that problem, which I think is the number one problem that we have. I'm also very interested in the application of AI and ML in the sphere of health. And I think that, just around the corner, there are some great solutions to really irksome terrible problems of a health nature, that technology will help us solve. And people who are determined to solve those problems using technology will help themselves, so I'm particularly interested in those two areas. Some people shy away from them because they're complicated, and some people shy away from them because they're highly regulated. They're really important – the health of our citizens is really important, as is the ability to have the right skills so you can prosper and make a contribution to your community. I'm not that interested in hearing people pitch me on things other than those two sort of, they're fairly broad subjects. But those are those that what I'm really interested in and can be an active in what they call smart money, rather than just dumb money. I'm interested and can probably help in some ways as well. The health and wellness industry is massive. What would you say to entrepreneurs who are put off by a large amount of competition in the in the sphere? Sherry: Create a fantastic product that your customers love. That's way better than anything else, that they're either getting the way that, you know, 40 per cent of our GDP is controlled by companies that didn't exist five years ago. Think about that. What competition? There are really big issues that are absolutely unsolved. And we entrepreneurs, and the people who find entrepreneurs are the only ones who are going to solve it on the time on, on the timeframe that we've got available to us. So, I'd say, solve them. Do it. Anna: Fabulous. Well, that seems like a good place to wrap up. Thank you very much for coming on podcast. Sherry: My pleasure. Thanks very much for having me and good luck with everything. Anna: You can find out more about Sherry at uk.linkedin.com/in/coutu. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on raising capital and managing your time. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.

Today’s episode brings together a panel of experts to help SMEs understand how to remain secure online and navigate the world of GDPR. It aims to help micro and small business owners become familiar with common cyber threats and take away simple practical tips to protect important data, process it correctly and improve cyber security.  

In this episode I meet Rachel Elnaugh, businesswoman, author and one of the original Dragons. We talk about her time running Red Letter Days and what it means to be an evolutionary entrepreneur. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on wellbeing.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Rachel's interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Rachel Elnaugh, author, speaker, mentor, former Dragon and the creator of Red Letter Days. She launched the experience day voucher company in 1989 when she was 24 years old. And after a precarious start, a print brochure campaign launched it to success. This led to multiple awards and a place as one of the original Dragons on Dragon’s Den. The company went into administration in 2005 due to over-expansion and the remaining assets were bought by fellow Dragons, Peter Jones and Theo Paphitis. They eventually sold the firm to Buyagift and it’s now owned by French firm, The Smartbox Group.   Taking the lessons of Red Letter Days with her, Elnaugh now mentors business owners and speaks at events in the hope that fellow entrepreneurs can learn from her experiences. Anna: Hi Rachel. Rachel: Hi Anna. Thank you for that intro. Anna: Not at all. How are you doing? Rachel: Yeah good, thank you. Great. The first thing I’d like to ask you about is that you describe yourself as an ‘evolutionary entrepreneur’ – what do you mean by that, exactly? Rachel: Well, I’ve been on my own journey of transformation and particularly being a business mentor, have got really interested in what makes one person successful and one another not. That’s kind of my holy grail – to really understand what makes the difference which has kind of taken me on this journey of discovery through mindset, through energy work and metaphysics and so I do think there’s a new era of consciousness opening. I think I’m moving out of that old capitalist business paradigm into this new era, along with many other people, which is a very different way of doing business. It’s much more intuitive and much more about manifestation and effortless flow. If your focus isn’t capitalism, what is it? Rachel: Well, capitalism is fundamentally about scarcity and really about putting money ahead of all other considerations. As we move into this new era, we’re seeing that businesses that aren’t just about profit but are also very much about people and about the planet are really coming to the fore – those brands that embrace a much wider idea of success than just money. We’re seeing a massive change and we’re also starting to unravel some of the programmes of capitalism like scarcity. For example, with renewable energy, the sun never stops shining, the waves and the wind never stop. There’s so much natural resource to tap into that I think this deep programme of scarcity is being unravelled and uninstalled. Anna: Yeah, you can see in businesses now that a corporate social responsibility is non-negotiable. If the business doesn’t have an ethical basis then at least it’ll be embedded in their business plan. Rachel: Yeah, and I think it goes way beyond the veneer of corporate social responsibility of wrapping a company with that. I think the companies that are really powerfully coming through are ones that have actually got ethics at the heart of them. So, I think there’s a new breed of entrepreneur coming through which goes way beyond social enterprise, it’s people working from the heart, really passionate about their businesses and their brands. And wanting to do business but in a way that is very nourishing.                   Definitely, I agree. I’d like to talk a bit about Red Letter Days as well. You made a loss of £4.7m at the time that you realised something was amiss. According to previous reports, there were various issues: management consultants taking on too many projects, a dud CEO, suppliers going unpaid, your financial director keeping information from you. Rachel: I think that when a business goes wrong, a lot of waves hit the ship at the same time. Up until that point, we’d had a very successful company that was growing every year, that was profitable. In 2002, I started winning awards and getting on television. I think you can get the Midas touch and start to push too far and fast. Suddenly it’s driven by profit motives and ego rather than just wanting to create great products and experiences and services. We brought in some management consultants who recommended that it was time for the business to grow up and to parachute in a new chief executive to take it to the next level – we really thought we could groom the business to float it. It was really that process of over-expansion, as you said in the intro, that was our undoing. It was a very big lesson. I think if I had to share that lesson with other entrepreneurs I would say just grow organically and in a very steady way rather than trying to step change a business and leap to the next level. That was the mistake we made. Anna: So, there’s a surge in confidence – then a real dip in confidence – on your part. Rachel: Well, as I said, a lot of waves hit the ship at the same time, so we parachuted in a chief executive who was brilliant at spending money. He’d actually come in from Thomas Cook and he is the one who created the JMC brand which, literally the day before he joined, was closed down by Thomas Cook. That should have been a warning. I also didn’t have a strong enough finance director and I think that’s really crucial in a business, I realise now. To have a very trusted, rock-solid finance director is key. So we over-expanded, overspent and then crucially, our credit card takings were bonded by our bank. When we were forced into administration, we had £3.3m cash at bank. That was another big lesson in that whoever controls the money has all the power. We had a huge amount of cash at bank but we just couldn’t touch it. And the bank forced us into administration. When that bond was unbound over the next year, all of the vouchers had been redeemed, the actual cost of fulfilling them was only just over £1m. While the bond was appropriate, the level of it was way in excess of what was necessary. And it was that cash flow that strangled the business and forced us into administration. There were a lot of factors involved and it was a very very dark, difficult learning process for me. From your learnings, what kind of advice would you give entrepreneurs about finding the right bank, the right account, the right adviser for them?      Rachel: It was interesting because I remember having a discussion on the set of Dragon’s Den with Duncan Bannatyne, my fellow Dragon. I was telling him the problems at that time I was struggling with trying to get this bond lifted. And he just turned to me and said: ‘Rachel, the first rule of business: do not bank with Barclay’s’. And the thing is, you don’t really understand how much power a bank has over you until you run into problems. And I think some banks are more ruthless than others. It was a big learning curve. But I don’t want to sound like I’m blaming and in victim mode because in truth, we were undercapitalised. And it’s very difficult to re-finance yourself out of a cash flow issue like that. If I could’ve re-run the clock it would’ve been much better for us to have got some proper venture capital funding before embarking on the expansion plan rather than trying to fund it out of cash flow. Tell me about the months after the company went into administration – what was it like for you? Rachel: It was a bit of a double-edged thing because on one side of things, it was quite tragic for me because I’d spent 16 years building this company literally from nothing, it was literally like my baby. I’d poured my whole life into it. All of my passion and all of my money, I’d lost that. On the other side of things, it was so stressful towards the end that when I finally signed the papers and put it into administration – and I really had no choice – it was a massive relief and a release. I’d just had my fourth son the week before so that was a great gift from God, you know. It was August, the sun was shining, I had a newborn baby and also, I’d just been on Dragon’s Den. So, I had this new world opening up to me of being this TV celebrity entrepreneur. And even though I got annihilated by the press, I was given a book deal. I wrote a book called Business Nightmares about the fine line between success and failure. That came out in May 2008 and in September 2008, world economies crashed, and we had the banking crash. And this repositioning of myself as a business survivor was actually perfect timing because it opened up a whole new world of speaking at business events, becoming a mentor and creating lots of products and ways of helping other people on their entrepreneurial journey. It was synchronistic and beautiful even though at the time it felt like the worst possible thing that could ever happen to me. Anna: I read that you found a note that you had written some time before about what you wanted for the future. It said something along the lines of ‘I will sell off Red Letter Days’. Rachel: This was long before I understood the power of words and the law of attraction. A friend of mine was training to be a life coach and she needed guinea pig clients. I said, ‘I don’t need a life coach but I’ll be your guinea pig client’. She got me to write this life plan and I found it after the company had crashed. I had written this several years before, but I found the piece of paper. On it I’d written: ‘By 2006, get rid of Red Letter Days so I can spend more time at home with my children, be creative and write.’ And so the universe had delivered that little cosmic order exactly to plan. You notice I didn’t write on there: ‘Sell Red Letter Days for £20m, be creative and write’, it said ‘get rid of’. And ‘get rid of’ is a very angry energy and so the universe got rid of it for me. We have to be very careful about our spelling, spelling is very powerful. You have to be careful what you ask for because it’s delivered often exactly to the word. What about planning what would happen within your business, including the staff. What was the process there? Rachel: We didn’t want to go into administration and we were working on all sorts of ways to re-finance. I had a re-financing offer from HBOS and I was looking for match equity funding. What happened was one of our suppliers – and sometimes in these situations, suppliers can be their own worst enemy – took a winding up order against the company. Could you briefly describe what a winding up order is for our listeners who don’t know? Rachel: Basically, if a company owes you money and they don’t pay, you can enter into court a winding up order which is if they don’t pay, you’re going to wind up the company and get paid that way. It’s a bit like dropping a nuclear bomb on someone to get what you want. Usually, in normal circumstances, if you get a winding up order from a creditor then you just pay them. But in our situation – it was a long time ago – but there was a legal reason why we couldn’t just pay them because we couldn’t create preferential creditors. When a winding up order has been put in, it basically opens you up to every other creditor. What happened was the creditors started arriving at the company offices to try and take the assets. So the only way we could protect the staff was firstly to lock the doors. We were in London and we had staff in our head office in Muswell Hill on the phone saying, ‘There are people at the doors, what do we do?’ We had to say, ‘You just have to lock the doors.’ We were advised by the lawyers that the only way to protect the company and its assets from these creditors in their vans was to put the company into administration. Through that winding up order we were forced into administration and as a result, no one got paid because I couldn’t complete the re-financing and it was game over. It was a very fine line between success and failure. Had we not had that winding up order, I could potentially have maybe, and it’s always an if, completed on the HBOS deal, the bond would’ve been released because we would have re-financed. Then we could have traded through and floated the company which was the plan because it had growth and it had profitability and it had a great brand. But alas, alack, it was not to be. How long would the re-financing process take? Rachel: All of my time was spent in meetings with bank and financiers, so I had the deal agreed. It was just a case of finding match equity funding. I actually did go to Peter [Jones] and Theo [Paphitis] and said, ‘I’ve got this deal. Could you match-fund it?’ There was potential they could’ve done that, but they felt there was a bigger opportunity to push it through administration, although that proved not to be the case. It is a bit like going nuclear, pushing your company through administration. And certainly with that industry, they couldn’t wipe the deck by putting it through administration because no one would supply the business without getting paid. It was quite messy.                                          The experiences industry is huge now. If you could have started Red Letter Days at any time within the past 30 years, when would you have started it? Rachel: We were the pioneers of the industry. And really, the 1980s were about how much you owned and the 1990s were about what you could experience, so the timing of creating the company was perfect because it captured the zeitgeist of the era. We weren’t the first company that did experiences, but we were the first company to truly embrace the concept of experiential giving. Anna: I suppose – I’m not sure about our listeners – but for me it seems like a pretty recent shift towards less buying of stuff to more buying of experiences, but it’s interesting to find out that back then that it was emerging – it’s always great to get in on that emerging market. Rachel: Yeah, for sure – we were creating that as we went. And a lot of people picked up on it, so we had lots of copycat companies and competitors. Then Virgin Experiences came in on it followed by all the retailers. And now it’s commonplace to see experiences as your prize or gift as opposed to a TV or a tangible piece of technology or kit.           You’ve said that part of the struggle of Red Letter Days initially was getting experience providers on board with something that was novel at the time – what would you say to entrepreneurs running a business based on a fairly new concept? Rachel: In essence, Red Letter Days was a marketing portal. When we launched in 1989, everyone’s books were full, and business was booming. Then the first recession happened in the early 1990s and people’s revenues started dropping. Even though a recession was opening, that was a great opportunity for us because people could see that their sales were dropping, and they wanted more promotion – especially free promotion – which is what we were offering. So I think in every era there’s always opportunity in adversity and I think you just have to tune into the market and be resourceful and just go with the flow and find out where people’s point of pain is and provide a solution to it.      Anna: Well, that’s it from me – is there anything you would like to add? Rachel: No, that’s fine. Hopefully that’s been useful. Anna: Yeah, it has been. Thank you so much. You can find out more about Rachel at rachelelnaugh.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on mental wellbeing and expanding your company. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

In this episode I meet Deborah Meaden, businesswoman, author and Dragon. We talk about her definition of success and what makes a disastrous investment pitch. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on pitching to investors.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the Deborah Meaden's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Deborah Meaden, investor, businesswoman, author and one of the longest-serving Dragons on Dragons’ Den, second only to Peter Jones. She launched her first company at 19 years old, importing glass and ceramics and supplying UK retailers such as Harvey Nichols. She then took on a franchise of Stefanel, an Italian clothing company and sold it two years later. Next came her family’s amusement arcade business, where she went from shop floor worker to operations director before moving to Weststar Holidays. Within two years she became managing director and did a management buyout in 1999. Then in 2005, she sold the business for £33m. After deciding that retirement wasn’t for her, Deborah joined Dragons’ Den in 2006 and has since invested £3,746,000. Anna: Hello, Deborah. Deborah: Good morning. I’m still smarting for being called second best to Peter Jones! Anna: How are you doing today? Deborah: Good! Yeah, very good day – so far. Anna: Yeah, that’s it – you want to touch wood but unfortunately there’s not much wood in here at the moment…  Right, I’ll start off with something quite general. In the past you’ve said that you like success and successful people. How do you define success? Deborah: I can tell when someone is successful because they’re comfortable with themselves. And it’s odd because often when people think of success, they think of these driven people who are constantly reaching for bigger and more and more money and more profit and whatever. But actually, I consider success someone who’s reached that stage in life where they’ve thought, ‘This is great, this is good. It might not be great forever but I’m enjoying what I’m doing now – I’m having a great impact. And the thing that I’ve set out to achieve I’m achieving and I’m achieving well.’ That is my idea of success. You can tell when you’re around successful people – they enjoy it, they’re comfortable with themselves. Anna: So, it’s not necessarily financial. Deborah: It’s easy to say it’s not financial. Of course, in the early days when I didn’t have money, it was financial. But when you reach a level you can start thinking that money isn’t the be all and end all. The thing I always say about money is that it’s kind of the measure of business, or it has been in the past. It’s, ‘If I’m good at business, I make great profits.’ I think that’s changing and that suits me better. It’s more a case of, ‘What do I want my output to be?’ Of course, I’ve got to make money, otherwise I wouldn’t have a business. But do I want to have a social impact as well? Do I want to feel good about what I do? I’m much more comfortable in that space. Anna: Yeah, we’re seeing businesses move towards having more of an ethical basis in their business models, supporting animals, doing charity contributions on the side. Deborah: Yes, and I think it doesn’t have to be through charity, just behaving well. If you believe in something, it should be reflected through your business and treating your people well, being respectful of them. Making an impact in your community. Sometimes I feel the charity side can be absolving yourself of responsibility: ‘Let’s just give them the money and they can do the work for me!’ I feel there’s a bigger responsibility – we should all behave well in our business lives.            And no matter how successful you are as an entrepreneur, everyone has their own set of strengths and weaknesses. You said that when you were at Weststar, you lost some good people because you didn’t temper your approach to nurture them. Have you adapted to different personalities in the workplace since, and if so, how did you got about it?    Deborah: That is very very true. I’m very robust. And anybody who’s watched Dragons’ Den will know that I’m very robust. But what I mean when I’m robust is that I throw things out there and I’m hoping that people are going to challenge me. I’m not just saying it because I want everyone to go, ‘Oh yes, I agree with you.’ I put things out there and I want a lively, energetic conversation around the stuff. But I did realise early on that that doesn’t suit everybody. Sometimes I’d say things and they’d think, ‘Ohhhh, alright! Okay!’ They don’t debate it, they don’t discuss it with me. I think that’s part of experience: take yourself off transmit and receive as well as transmit. Anna: How did you put that into practice? Deborah: It’s a bit odd because, of course, life is about communication. I just realised I had a great group of friends that I communicate and debate with and I listen to and I think, ‘Why am I behaving differently at work?’ People are people – just because they happen to be in the work environment. Why don’t I just the use the skills I use when I’m outside of work? When you first meet people you sense them, you feel them out. Are they shy, are they very robust, are they gregarious? What are they? And you temper yourself to them. I just remembered to do that in the workplace and of course, the response was amazing. It just meant that people with a different style could find their style with me. We found a way of working together as opposed to [them] thinking, ‘I need to just shrivel up and leave the room because she’s said something that she obviously wants to happen!’ One of your greater strengths as an entrepreneur is your frankness. And we’re surrounded by so many options these days and plagued by indecision. How do you make good decisions as a business owner? Deborah: Well, the first thing is learning to make decisions, good or bad. It’s better to make a bad decision than it is to make no decision. In making no decision, you destabilise everything and everybody gets into this awful limbo land and thinks, ‘Ohhhhh, I really don’t know what’s going on’ and they lose the ability to make decisions. So learning to consider, know what you need to know, and the moment to say: ‘Right – I’ve heard enough, now I need to make a decision.’ I have watched people get trapped in this, ‘Oh, well I’ll just ask’ and ‘Maybe if we ask this’ and sometimes we get to a stage where we’re doing research and I’ll say ‘Okay, we need to stop the research now, because I think we know enough’. Otherwise, we shouldn’t be doing our job. The researchers aren’t going to tell us what we should do. They’re going to give us the information to help us make our decisions. We need to make those decisions. And coming back to different personality types, how would somebody who is perhaps less confident, less decisive – how do they make the most of their qualities as a business leader? Deborah: It’s interesting that you say ‘business leader’ because I was reading a really interesting book on leadership. It was saying that people need different leaders in different environments and at different times. If you think about the history of the country, we needed different people at different times and businesses are the same. Leaders are given permission to lead. It’s not like, ‘I’m a fantastic leader – I can walk into any environment and anybody will follow me.’ Because actually, if you don’t do a good job, I promise you that your permission to lead will be taken away very very quickly. People will just start finding ways around you. They’ll think, ‘You know what? They don’t know what they’re doing so I’ll carry on with my thing.’ So I actually think that knowledge and experience and proving that you’re good eventually attracts people around you. [They] work out really quickly, ‘Who is it that makes my life better because I can do my job better? I know they’re going to help me do my job better.’ Be good at what you do, be really helpful to other people. Recognise that you are all in this together because the more helpful you are, the more people look to you. We all think of leaders as these big strident people who are born leaders but actually in the wrong environment – and the wrong time – people will just say, ‘Oh, shush’. Anna: But sometimes people just need to be given the chance to come out and make those decisions. Deborah: Absolutely, and to get the feedback on those decisions. A lot of it is a lack of confidence. I’ve seen so many people sit in a room – and this has happened a lot since I’ve been on Dragons’ Den – suddenly, it’s like I’m the expert on everything. I’ve been on television, so I know everything. I’ve got confident, competent people who know way more about their subject than me, who will not stick their stake in the ground because they think, ‘Deborah’s in the room – she must know more than anybody.’ I’m like, ‘Guys, if I think I know everything, what am I doing sitting in a room talking to you lot?! I’ll just carry on, thank you. You know way more than me so could you just carry on making the decisions you made before the day I was on Dragons’ Den? It’s much more difficult now to get people to challenge me – and I love challenge. What’s the point of sitting in a room with people who are just agreeing with me? Anna: I feel like I should disagree with you right now, but I actually do agree!                   One of the companies you have invested in, ran into difficulty last year [the founder is no longer part of the company]. How do you know when it’s time to walk away from a business? Deborah: In the case of Gripit, it’s what to do. It’s come through and it’s selling to the US market. It’s when to stop or it’s when to say, in the case of Gripit, actually we’ve got a fantastic product here – no one ever questioned the product. So, what we’re going to do now is present it in a different way and have a completely different structure sitting behind it. I’ve got a feeling that if I wasn’t there, it probably would’ve gone. It was definitely in a very difficult moment in time. But I was able to see through that, underpinned by a product. What I do see sometimes is a product that is clearly failing. When you’ve got to wander around, holding up the product going, ‘Buy me, please please buy me’, that worries me much much more. If you’ve got a good product but the structure in which you’re selling it isn’t quite right, that’s a problem you can get through. If you’ve got a bad product and you’re having to work too hard to get out there, that’s the time to call it a day. You’ve got to understand why you’re at that difficult moment. Every single business I’ve ever been in has had a difficult moment and if you can’t work out what’s causing it – and see a way through it – that’s the time to stop. But if you can work out what’s caused it and think, ‘Oh, I can fix that’ then clearly, you need to carry on.      Anna: Coming back to Dragons’ Den, I’ve read that when you do a day of shooting you record six pitches. Most are about an hour long, but some are as short as 15 minutes while others are two hours long. What are the common themes run among the not-so-good pitches, the ones that tend to end after 15 minutes? Deborah: I’m not sure there’s a common theme. Sometimes it’s purely and simply: ‘That isn’t going to work’. It’s just, all five of us – and we’re all very different – but you’ve got a lot of experience sitting there, in a lot of sectors. And we’re not always right. Fantastic businesses go out there and prove us wrong, that’s brilliant, that’s fine. But sometimes you just think, ‘You have not thought that out’ and you fall at the first hurdle because what’s your market? How are you going to make it? What does it cost to make?        Anna: So, people come in with no idea… Deborah: Well, they come in with an idea sometimes and that is the problem: there’s a mile of difference between an idea and a business proposition. You’ve got to have something that I’m investing in – not just a thought. That’s one of the big issues.    Anna: Although that is to say that they’re quick because they’re weaker pitches than the ones that are longer and you want to know more. Deborah: Oh, absolutely. I think the shortest pitch I’ve ever seen is 11 minutes and it was a product where everybody was clearly just wrong on all counts. It was badly thought out, it was badly presented, there was no idea what the market was going to be, didn’t know what the cost of making it was going to be, didn’t know what the cost of selling it was going to be… that’s a quick pitch! There’s nothing to invest in here. I think the longest pitch I’ve ever been on was three hours. And to be honest, by that point you’re interested. We don’t sit there for three hours and don’t invest – we’re trying to unpick a business. Anna: Wow. What do you discuss in a three-hour pitch? Deborah: We’re trying to get to the stage where an investment is going to proceed because once we get out of the Den, not all of the businesses pass due diligence. I don’t want to waste my time or their time – life’s too short to agree something and then find afterwards, ‘Damn, if I’d known that I wouldn’t’ve made an offer’. So if you’re interested, it takes longer because we’re trying to eke out all of the things so it shortens the process. In my experience, when you come out of the Den, the longer it takes for that deal to get away, the less likely the deal is going to be. And I don’t want to walk out the Den and find out that actually, they haven’t got a patent, they’ve made a patent application. Or their numbers are wrong by a factor of 100. Or – this happens a lot – they have loans that were not disclosed in the Den. And I specifically ask now – people sometimes don’t count a Director’s Loan as a loan. Well, of course it’s a loan! It’s still a loan. So often we’ll come out and then find out that something wasn’t disclosed that should’ve been disclosed. Because in good faith, we’re both trying to find out about each other. And there’s no point me agreeing a deal in the Den and then walking out and thinking, ‘Ohhh, if only I’d known that, I’d have never…’ Anna: And you’re hoping to build a long-term business relationship so keeping stuff from each other at that point is never a good sign. Deborah: Actually, the deal just won’t proceed. We are agreeing to invest but between that and the investment is normal due diligence that you would do on any business. I might as well know in the Den what’s going on and if you haven’t told me something material, the trust is gone and I need to trust people. Anna: What’s the worst pitch you’ve seen in the Den? Deborah: Oh, it’s hard to tell. False fingernails for cats was a funny one. There was a fantastic – it was a guy who came up with an invention of a fold-out sunbed in a suitcase which you can take on holiday with you and take your suitcase down to the beach and then unfold it – because obviously people use all the beach chairs. You think, ‘You don’t seriously believe I’m going to carry a huge big suitcase on holiday with me.’ Anna: People only have so much checked-in baggage, you know? Deborah: At least he was thinking! Anna: Yeah, he can make one for himself. How about pitches that you turned down at the time but turned out to be quite successful after the show. Were there any of those that you thought, ‘Oh, I wish I got involved in that’? Deborah: I’m not an ‘I wish I had’ kind of person. I put everything into achieving the thing that I’m trying to achieve and if I don’t, I don’t. There will always be other opportunities. And I’m not just saying this: that’s the best kind of mistake to make. If you don’t invest in somebody and they go on and make a huge success, it’d be a bit churlish not to think, ‘Well good on you’. Anna: That’s a very mature approach to take. Deborah: We started off by saying I like success. I get no pleasure from seeing people fail. Even if a fleeting ‘I told you so’ crosses my mind, it’s very fleeting. Anna: I know for some people it must be quite difficult. Deborah: I’m actually quite hard to interview because people ask me, ‘What are you most proud of?’ and I honestly don’t know. I don’t really look back, I don’t worry, I don’t carry stuff around with me. Bad stuff has happened and at the time it was awful and two days later it’s gone. I’ve always looked forward. I’ve always been more interested in what’s coming up than what’s going on behind.                             Anna: And in the spirit of moving forward, we have a Budget coming up. What support would you like to see to support small business owners? Deborah: I would definitely like to see the EIS and SEIS schemes maintained, just in case there’s any consideration that they go. Because if ever there was a time for people to get their investment out of the bank and working with small businesses, that’s what we should be doing. We should be supporting them. What else would I like to see for small business? I think this is a very very difficult Budget because we still don’t know about the Brexit scenario and we have no idea on the basis on which that’s going to be very difficult to say what you want for a business when you don’t know what the landscape is. You asking me this question in a normal landscape, I’d say, ‘You can do A and B and C and help’ but I have no idea what we’re aiming at anymore. So I really don’t know which levers to pull. That feels really awkward for somebody who spends their life making decisions and working out what is the best thing to do now. Anna: Yeah – business owners are planning three, five, ten years in advance. They’ve just been at a point where they can’t. Deborah: Listen, we’re in a really funny time at the moment. We don’t know the landscape and we can only control what we can control. But I really do worry that there are some businesses that are really not looking at the potential pitfalls and preparing themselves for it. I’ve spoken to a lot of businesses who at first thought, ‘Well, of course Brexit won’t affect me’. That’s because they weren’t doing business in the EU, but they’re not really looking back through their supply chains, not understanding what could happen to the data within their business. There’s no agreement on data transfer. So, I think businesses should just look into themselves for a moment and think, ‘Actually, which bits of these could be affected in terms of a future trade deal?’ There’ll be a lot of stuff that’s left undone and you need to know your risk. With a lot of my businesses I’ve had to set up offices in Ireland, almost as an insurance to say ‘just in case we can’t directly trade with the EU without pretty hefty tariffs. I need to find a way of trading’. There are things you can do to mitigate on a best guess scenario – you’ve got to understand what’s at risk in your business.   Anna: That seems like a good place to wrap up. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Deborah. Deborah: Thank you for inviting me. I enjoyed it. Anna: You can learn more about Deborah at deborahmeaden.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more insight on preparing for Brexit planning and how to pitch to investors. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

In this episode I meet Tim Campbell, an entrepreneur and the first winner of The Apprentice back in 2005. We discuss his views on apprenticeships and the idea behind one of his more unusual business ventures. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on apprenticeships and grants.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the Tim Campbell's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Tim Campbell, an entrepreneur and the very first winner of The Apprentice back in 2005. Since working for Lord Sugar, Tim has launched Bright Ideas Trust, a charity for disadvantaged young entrepreneurs and Alexander Mann Solutions, a talent acquisition firm. We’ll be talking about what it was like to be in the first crop of candidates on The Apprentice and how to give interviewees useful, constructive feedback.   Anna: Hello Tim. Tim: Hi, how are you, Anna? Good? Anna: Yeah, very well, thanks. A bit of a grim day but doing alright. How are you?   Tim: Oh, if we didn’t have the weather to complain about, what would we have? Anna: Exactly! It’s the essence of being British. Tim: It is unfortunately, but let’s hope for better tidings to come. Anna: Awesome. Right, for a bit of context, we are recording in the Alexander Mann Solutions offices today – in a sound booth, which is very nice. Tim: It is indeed. But one of the interesting things that amazes me about London and is very exciting, is the juxtaposition between the old buildings we can see and the new cranes you can see everywhere.   Anna: Exactly, yeah. It’s wonderful seeing the architecture of the new vs the old. You wouldn’t think they work together, but they do. Tim: That’s the thing about London – we make it work. That sings to the essence and the entrepreneurial nature of individuals from the UK. My mum was an entrepreneur, but she didn’t call herself an entrepreneur. She was just making ends meet, as it were. A Jamaican immigrant to the country who had three children and brought them all up to be relatively successful. But she always underpinned that with working hard, going out and earning a living. And London has always facilitated that and I suppose the inspiration for me in a lot of the things I do is my mum in that she came over with all the skills and attributes but didn’t have the knowledge, contacts or mentors to be able to do that. Do you think your mum didn’t call herself an entrepreneur because she didn’t go through the formal avenues of having a grant or a mentor? Tim: Definitely. She just didn’t have time to worry about the nomenclature, she was just focused on the outputs and I think that one of the things we talk about with the people that we either mentor or support is to strip it down to its bare necessities. Lots of people are very interested in the successful outputs of getting in business. They want the money, they want the accolades, they want the title and we have to start at the very beginning: ‘What problem is it that you’re solving? What is your business? Then we get some blank looks and they say, ‘We just want the money at the end. Can’t you just give me that?’ And I say, ‘Well, no actually – there’s a process to it.’ I think with my mum and me and the people we try and support, we try and encourage them not to focus on what the title is because titles are for corporate environments, whereas when you’re a business owner it doesn’t matter, particularly when you run a micro or small business, you do everything. But essentially, you’re focused on the output and delighting the customer. As long as you keep that at the forefront of your mind, then you can enjoy the pats on the back and the celebrations of what you’ve done. But never lose sight of why you’re in this and that’s to delight a customer and make them happy, and then get them to give you money as a result.       The thing I’d like to talk about is your time on The Apprentice. You were on the very first series before anyone even knew what it was. Tim: A long time ago, neither did we! We didn’t know what it was. For the 14 contestants on the first show, there were probably only two people who did the investigation to find out exactly what The Apprentice was, which is a bit stupid to admit, but I’m going to be very honest. Anna: Was one of them you? Tim: Yeah. Anna: Oh really?! Tim: No, I didn’t. I was very naïve, I actually applied for a job with the main focus being to get the six-figure salary. That’s what I wanted. Because [the programme] wasn’t as popular as it is now and didn’t attract the millions of people watching every single episode, so it was a different beast. But when I applied, it was about securing a salary that would look after my family. And naïvely, I just applied thinking that 1) I was going to work with a great British entrepreneur in the then Sir Alan (as he is now Lord Sugar) and 2) it was a sizeable multiple on the money I was earning at the moment. I thought, ‘What could I lose?’ Little did I realise what you could actually lose, but that’s why I carried on with the application and thankfully it was a positive outcome. Yeah, that’s it – because people who apply now see it as a platform for a business idea that they might have and obviously you get the investment at the end. Tim: Correct. I suppose the thing for me is that the bigger opportunity for a show like that, apart from shouting and screaming at the contestants who don’t want to do the dreadful things they sometimes have to – or coming out with the ridiculous one-liners they seem to continually do every year without fail – is learning from Lord Sugar himself. He’s a brilliant entrepreneur in the truest sense of the word, in that he can spot problems, come up with solutions and deliver true value, not just to investors, but stakeholders, customers, in what he would be able to deliver. From what I’ve seen, there weren’t as many zingers in the first series as there were later on. What else is different between then and now? Tim: Probably because I was just boring. On the first series, I remember all of the contestants. All of us were really competitive – we just wanted to win. What we agreed on very early, was that the way we could secure victory was by not losing task and not falling out with each other. If we worked as a team, we’d actually do more. That must have been so annoying for the television producers because that’s not what they want to hear, but that’s what we had. When we went on task, we were going to be polite and civil. And when we were on task, we were going to be competitive, but not devious to the point where we would hurt other individuals. That wasn’t on our agenda. And that sung to our values – particularly me and Saira – who were project managers a number of times. Our values were that you could win without being negative to people. And I think that’s sometimes lost, particularly when people talk about business in general, where the image that people get is ruthless, belligerent character that kills everybody and steps on the heads of minor people to get to where they are. And there are some people who are like that in business, but the vast majority of people I’ve worked with – either on the show or in business in the real world – just want to survive. Anna: Those relationships are so important. Tim: It’s critical. What we took from our series was that the power of strong relationships helped you go further. As you said, the prize in the first series was a job with Sir Alan, back then. You set up his health and beauty division at Amstrad. Tim: It was a very interesting journey. You were asked on day one to come up with a health and beauty product. And I thought, ‘What is this?’ And what I saw it as was a test. What we were trying to do – and we did successfully, was replicate other multi-level marketing processes. We got other women to sell the products to other women. It was a very interesting two years I spent. The whole gambit of business was involved in that particular project. I look at it like it was a real-life MBA. It was phenomenal in terms of learning and experience. I still rub cream on the back of my hand now and say, ‘Ooo, isn’t that lovely?’ because I understand how it was all made. How was the reception of MLMs back then? Now we’re seeing a backlash, particularly with companies that don’t have a great reputation, make false promises, are quite exploitative. Tim: Yup, and I think people are right to see a backlash against those ones who don’t deliver against what they say they’re going to. The key thing that I learned from Lord Sugar was to deliver on your promises. The products that we put on were about empowering people to make a revenue from the products that we had already generated. But we had very clear outputs, a very clear rewards structure and had very clear marketing, which had no false pretence behind it. And the good thing about going on a television programme which had multi-million people viewing it is that you get held to account very quickly if you don’t do what you say you’re going to do. So thankfully, all of the work that we did was regulated, it was checked and verified by independent people and delivered against the promises. What we were really focused on was them learning about business while possibly generating some income for themselves as well as using a good, highly potent and effective product. If you were to go back on The Apprentice now and win the investment (£250,000) rather than the job, what would you do with it? Tim: Very interesting. I think if I were to do something today it’d be around artificial intelligence and some form of tech. You look at some of the industry sectors on a medium scale which are accelerating in excess of 20pc every single year and you’re immediately gravitating towards use of tech, particularly in the financial sectors. The fintech market has been amazing. I think there are some really interesting plays in the insuretech space and the edutech space. Education and people insuring against risk are never going to go away. If you look at some of the fast-growing businesses at the moment, they’re providing ancillary services behind businesses, so courier servicing, making sure that you can deliver consultancy advice and guidance into business. Or anywhere around tech in terms of promoting business propositions. Those are the areas I would’ve come up with a proposition for him to give me some money for.      I know you’re supportive of apprentices. From a small business owner’s perspective, we’ve seen that some are put off hiring apprentices because they don’t have time to train them or they can’t afford them. What would you like to see that would make things easier? Tim: I think for small businesses you’ve got to make the decisions which are really important to your company. You can’t just follow on. It’s got to be right for you as a business. The difficulty with a small company is if you make a mistake the impact is much bigger than in a bigger company where you make a mistake, it might not be right, but you can move around and you’ve got the resources to absorb that. Small businesses have to make really critical decisions around can they take on an additional wage because when you take on an apprentice, it’s not a free resource. In my opinion, you have to pay them the living wage – and the London wage if you’re in the capital. Then you’ve got to work into the equation how long the value add is to you as a business owner. They’re going to have to learn the ropes and get off the ground before they become of value to you as a small business. And the training that comes with an apprenticeship – how valuable could that be to an organisation in making an assessment? It’s not for every small company, with the amount of supervisory element to an apprenticeship programme, the resources may not be there for a small business to be able to go along that journey yet. But it’s something that should definitely be on the agenda and maybe for the smaller to medium-sized businesses that are growing, as opposed to the micro businesses who are at the beginning. I’m going to take what is typically seen as a more morbid turn here. I understand that you are the director of a company called death.io. Tim: Yes, I am indeed. And rather than scaring lots of people, it should fill them with joy. What we have done, and when I say we it’s me, my co-founder Paul Wiseall and our chairman, Tom Ilube, have come together to start a company which is using artificial intelligence to help people better prepare for the inevitable. And the rather shocking title of ‘Death’, similar to the likes of Virgin or Google, makes you wonder what this is about, where is it coming from and it’s a bit of a shock factor. We want it to stick in people’s minds that this is one of the last taboo areas that you should be talking about. Because the whole industry is a conversation which happens behind closed doors, in hushed tones, and no one really wants to speak about it. There are so many different ways to talk about death. What we at death.io have done is utilise technology to help you live forever. We are able to take the essential elements of you as an individual and tell your story, tell us the significant moments of your lives and utilise technology to create a virtual person out of those recollections, which others can interact with. Is that verbally or in writing? Tim: Both! At the moment, we have a platform which allows you to talk using typed words back and forward to your avatar. But the developments are quickly incorporating voice into that. So very much like you might like you might tell a speaker to turn the lights or the music on in your house, you will have the ability to talk to yourself via one of those devices as well. Anna: Oh, that’s kind of eerie. Tim: In one way, I can understand why people think, ‘Oh my gosh, I don’t want that, where would that come from?’ But at the same time, bringing it to back business, I had the privilege of speaking to the head of the Chinese Takeaway Association. It was very interesting – I didn’t know one existed – but one does! What he said is that you’ve got a lot of people who have come over as immigrants to this country and worked really hard to build up fantastic businesses within every single major city in the world. They’ve done that to facilitate a better life for them and their children. What happens though is that these children go to fantastic schools, go off to university, and may decide that they don’t want to run Mum and Dad’s Chinese takeaway. What happens to all of that information? What happens to all of that insight around how you pick stock, how you purchase stuff, how you set up a marketing campaign to get people to do stuff? That information has to go somewhere otherwise it just passes with the individual. It’s also an opportunity for us to make sure people have their lives in order: have you got the right insurance in place? Have you got the right protection for your family going forward? We have the facility to let people do that in a nice, friendly, social way. Yeah, from what I saw I like the holistic approach of it, especially with the blog. It’s touched by so many of today’s topics like rapidly advancing technology, sustainability, gender identity. It’s fascinating. I like the tone as well – normally with traditional funeral care providers and planners there’s a formal and sombre tone where again, on the blog, it helps breaks the tension around, as you say, a taboo subject. Tim: We had a great conversation with a phenomenal agency called Ready Ten, started up by a very good friend of mine, David Fraser. He was the only agency that picked up the potential of this in terms of how you could turn this into a positive conversation. Their ideas around how you could really grasp a difficult subject like death – you have to talk about these things because they’re not going to go away. We want to take the stance of not making light of the conversation, but in lightening the conversation around subject matters that have to happen. Like, if you got sick, what would happen? What’s your blood type? I don’t know – most people don’t know! If you don’t know what your blood type is or you don’t know if you’ve got any hereditary diseases, we have a way to capture that and share the true essence of who you are rather than the curated bit that you might do through other social platforms.       I think there are some interesting ethical questions around grieving, the way that people’s memories are held. Because we touch so many people, you might want me to come back alive, but I might’ve been really horrible to someone else who doesn’t want me to continue on living. What are the ethical implications of all of those? But for us as a platform, we want to give that ownership and option over to the individual. Where you can sign up to have this delivered in any way, shape or form based on what you feel those around you need. It’s not for us to act as judge and jury around that, but it’s going to be a very interesting development to see how far people want to take it.      Well, I’d love to talk about this a bit more, but I must move onto our last topic. You’re an advocate of the Fight for Feedback campaign, encouraging employers to give interviewees good quality feedback. In your opinion, what makes quality, decent feedback from an employer? Tim: I think it’s incredibly important that employers to understand that they have a responsibility to leave candidates with a good candidate experience from their resource process. Why is that important? I was always told that it’s important to say goodbye in a nice way rather than just say hello in a positive way. Those people will tell another ten people exactly how you treated them. It’s very important from an employer brand perspective to make sure that employees – whether they’re successful or not in going through a process – leave with a good feeling. And the best way to leave with a good feeling is to be told ‘No, but this is how you could improve’. As employers, I think we all have a responsibility to raise the level of our candidates, and I think the only way you can do is alert them to what they can do better in the future. Let me make it clear, because there are lots of very big employers who are saying, ‘Hang on a second, Tim – we see hundreds of thousands of people every year for our placements.’ Yes, that’s true, there are a lot of people coming through. It would not be impossible to put a structure in place which says to individuals, ‘You might not get direct verbal feedback from every person you spoke to but we can at least highlight the areas that we didn’t select you on.’ There are so many candidates who talk about filling out an application, taking the time to nurture a CV and make it bespoke to that employer, write the covering letter, do everything necessary, and don’t hear anything – not even a ‘no’. That’s a very negative seed that’s been planted around that brand and the value that they place around the people who interact with them. And for me, just to be able to say, ‘No, but these are the areas you fell down’ is as powerful as a half-hour phone call with an individual to walk them through exactly what they could do to improve. Now, the scale of when you can do that may alter depending on how far they’ve gone through a process and how senior the actual role is. I don’t mind that. And the other thing to think about from an employer’s perspective is that it’s a two-way process. You could get some free marketing research from individuals who have interacted with you and they can tell you what they found and that can help you develop and get better as well. You can create a brilliant campaign, attract a fantastic funnel of talent, but you don’t know unless you’re asking them how they are receiving it. I think feedback is such a small thing to do which can have such a big impact on how people perceive that brand and how they will go and work in the future. So, if somebody has a big problem presenting information in a way, tell them, help them to be better and you never know, they might come and work for you in the future because of that feedback. Plant good seeds; give good feedback.            Anna: Well, that seems like the perfect place to end it on, so I’ll wrap up there. Thanks ever so much for coming on the show, Tim. Tim:  Thanks so much for having me, Anna. Let’s hope that the sun is shining now in London and elsewhere and that all of our businesses improve. Thank you very much for having me. Anna: It’s been a pleasure. You can find out more about Tim at timcampbellhq.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more information on apprenticeships and grants. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.     

In this episode I meet Timo Boldt, founder and CEO of recipe box service, Gousto. We discuss ethics, personal data and the importance of managing yourself before you manage others. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on artificial intelligence and improving sustainability.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the Timo Boldt's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Timo Boldt, founder and CEO of recipe box service, Gousto. He launched the firm in 2012 and it has been growing exponentially year on year. Earlier this year they raised £18 million collectively from health influencer Joe Wicks, Unilever Ventures, Hargreave Hale, BGF Ventures, MMC Ventures and Angel CoFund. In July, they raised a further £30 million to develop their artificial intelligence technology, bringing total raised to £100 million.   Boldt is also on the digital advisory board for Unilever. Anna: Hello, Timo. Timo: Nice to meet you. Anna: Yeah, and you. How are you doing? Timo: Very good, excellent. Anna: Great. Timo: What would you like to talk about? First, I’d like to talk a little bit about the artificial intelligence side. I understand it is a substantial part of the business. There’s also a real emphasis on tech, so much so that you have a separate Twitter account for @GoustoTech. I was wondering – do you see yourself as a tech company as much as a recipe box service? Timo: We see ourselves as a data company that happens to trade in food. We have always been on this huge, huge mission to be the most loved way to eat dinner and we can only really do that by harnessing the power of technology, transforming the way that UK families eat, plan, shop. So, technology is kind of the enabler. AI for the past six, seven years has played a crucial role. And the idea is that when you open the app, you should see a completely personalised menu. I should see a different menu. We should only see what we really love to eat. I think that’s the power of AI integrated into the app and that’s providing real differentiation.      From a personal data perspective, how are the pages personalised? What data tends to be taken to personalise these pages? Timo: The section is literally called ‘Just for You’. You open the menu and it has a selection of recipes on it that only you should see, no one else should see. You can still browse the entire catalogue of the menu, but you don’t have to. What we do is pretty simple – we look through your history, we look at what you ordered before and we try to make a recommendation. We also try to look at similar customers, so pattern recognition and then trying to predict what else they might want and then offering that to you. And those algorithms are the exact two types of algorithm Netflix is using. How did you find the transition when GDPR came in? Timo: Look, I mean, I think GDPR has caused a lot of increase in process. Directionally, I think it’s quite good for the customer. We definitely had to up our game in terms of process and understanding the legislation. I don’t think that it’s has impacted, at all, our ability to surface better menus and better value for the customer. We welcome it, it’s fine. I’d like to move on to Dragon’s Den. You appeared on the programme in 2013, but unfortunately you were turned down by the Dragons. You were contacted by an investor shortly afterwards offering you a substantial sum. How did that fit into the expectations you had from the programme when you signed up to go on? Timo: Yeah – as a young entrepreneur, I think you have to try absolutely everything to get attention and raise money. I hand-delivered 100+ boxes to journalists. One of the opportunities that emerged was Dragon’s Den. I had an enormously fun time going onto the show. I actually got two offers on the show – one they didn’t show and the other one we rejected. Duncan Bannatyne became a customer after the show which is almost better than getting money. And as you said we had a great offer from a group of angel investors. They’re amazing people – they’ve all spent their lives in the food industry. They added not only capital but lots of knowledge, helping us in the early days to set up the supply chain. You know, talking to farmers, making sure we source the best quality food. I think it was a big catalyst for us. We didn’t take the Dragons’ money, but it was an amazing opportunity and we had lots of fun.    Ethics play a big part in the business. It’d be interesting to know how you maintain those ethics throughout the supply chain. Timo: We’ve always been on this mission to make the planet better off with every single meal we sell. In the early days, when I launched Gousto, I really wanted to find a way of taking the 40pc of food that’s wasted our system out of the equation, both in the supply chain and at customer level. By setting up Gousto we’ve really managed to take out food waste and that’s been a phenomenal part since day one. And it makes great business sense because you don’t waste food. We are also extremely focused on plastic, on packaging. This year alone, we’re pledging to reduce plastic by 50pc and the team is on track. We’ve always had this massive ethos, or sustainability focus. Now that we’re larger, we employ people who really go deep into the supply chain to understand farmers’ credentials, animal welfare and so on. It’s very close to my heart. I’m interested in finding out more about the food waste side. If you’ve got a certain demand for one of the meals on the menu. If you had leftovers – say you have potatoes, for example – you have a certain demand and have some left over, what happens to that? Timo: What the clever guys are doing is that they are literally helping to come up with menus that reduce food waste to zero. One, there’s a huge focus on food forecasting, making sure we only buy what we really need. But then secondly, we can really play with the menu, so that we can make sure that we only use the food all the time when it’s fresh and tasting the best. You talked a little bit about sustainability before – and it makes up a large part of the brand’s image. As we’ve mentioned before, you’ve got Unilever as an investor and you’re also a member of the digital advisory board. Unilever hasn’t always had the best reputation when it comes to sustainability. For example, it was named one of the most prominent plastic polluters in the Philippines [research from Global Alliance for Incinerator Alternatives] earlier this year. When you were presented with the opportunity to partner with them, both on an investment level and on their board, what was going through your mind? Did you worry that it might affect Gousto’s company image? Timo: Almost no FMCG (Fast-Moving Consumer Goods) company in the world has done as much as Unilever has done for sustainability. They are so driven by the topic of sustainability. Paul Polman, the former CEO, is leading the agenda and the charge globally. I really admire what they’ve done. Are they perfect? No. Do I work for them? No. Do they ask me what they should do about sustainability? No. I think they are a force for good. They’re not perfect. I think when I joined the Digital Advisory Board, I saw an opportunity to impact and influence and raise the agenda even further. But I’m not working for them in any way – I’m an advisor, I’m unpaid and I think we have to work with large business to really drive change. It’s amazing if Gousto can change the world. But ultimately, we need Tesco, Amazon, Sainsbury’s and Unilever to have impact at scale.   Tell me more about your role on the Digital Advisory Board. What kind of things do you do in that role? Timo: It’s an amazing board, they’ve got super-experienced CEOs from large companies. Unilever is spending £10bn on marketing per year and the big challenge is yesterday they got beaten up by Tesco, tomorrow they probably get beaten up by Amazon and Ali Baba. Everything is moving online. And it gets even harder for them – their brands are getting cannibalised, competition is on price all of a sudden, the Chinese market is growing rapidly. It’s all e-commerce, it’s no longer in the shop. I’m in a very humble capacity trying the educate the board around direct-to-consumer capabilities, our sustainability mission, that 100pc of Gousto’s revenues are online, how you build data science into your business model, how you hire tech people at scale. I’m playing the tech advisory role, wearing my start-up hat.    In the past you’ve talked about the importance of growing yourself as a CEO within your business. What do you mean by that? Timo: I’m a massive believer in the power of learning and being curious. I’ve done an Executive MBA, so at weekends I’d go to Cambridge to upskill myself. I’m becoming a certified coach right now, so I’m on a one-year coaching diploma course in the evenings and on the weekend. I also joined other scale-up wards, so I massively believe in this philosophy that everyone should aspire to be the best version of themselves. For me, the question is: how can I be the best CEO possible? Seven years ago, I didn’t manage anyone, today we manage 500 people. Tomorrow, we’ll manage 1,200 people. I need to constantly upskill myself, leading by example, then role-modelling to the organisation that you’ve got to invest in yourself and you’ve got to take time off to think about your own development. I think that’s super important as the work is changing so fast. Plus it’s a lot of fun.     I think it’s hard for business owners, particularly small business owners, to really take the time for themselves. How would you suggest alleviating the guilt that they feel a lot of the time and leaving some of the work to the people that they’ve employed? Timo:  Yeah, I totally think that’s true. Lots of people feel like they have no time. I mean ultimately, if you want to be brutal, busyness is some form of laziness. We’re all way too busy, but as a leader you have to get yourself out of the minutiae and the day-to-day. I think you’ve got an enormous responsibility to lead by example and help people understand how important self-development is – reflection, reflection practice – so I think it matters, but it is really hard. Once a quarter, I try going off-site to only focus on my own development. And I probably spend 50pc answering my phone and another 20pc responding to emails so I’m not perfect. I’m trying really hard, but it is challenging. If you have the right people in the business and you surround yourself with amazing people, people are the key to success. The more incredible talent you have, the more structure you have, the more you can afford to get out. If you feel guilty you might not have the right people. You can’t be controlling. In my head it’s not about accountability, it’s about ownership. It’s about giving people autonomy and then cheerleading them. Your job as leader is to set the North Star and then to galvanise people – buy them cake, celebrate, collab. Do whatever you can to make them feel good, celebrating every step towards success. If they fail, build them up again. Focus them on the richness of learning from failure. But it’s not about the day to day and controlling every step. The food industry as a whole is facing quite a few problems – not problems, more challenges – as we go into the future. Particularly with sourcing enough food, changing temperatures, all sorts of things. What kind of challenges do you see in the food industry and what advice do you have for an entrepreneur looking to start a business in the food industry? Timo: The bigger the problem, the bigger the opportunity for entrepreneurs. I think grocery is a wonderful market for entrepreneurs to enter and to do good. If you look at the grocery market, you’ve got huge supermarkets that for the last 50 years have built a supply chain of 10,000 stores which after 50 years is no longer fit for purpose. Everyone wants to order food online, people pay a premium for convenience, sustainability and health are so important. I think there’s a big opportunity around how we sell to customers, how we fit into their life. I also believe that there are lots of issues on the supplying side, for example urban farming. In perfect conditions, you can grow organic salads and organic tomatoes using a fraction of the water that traditional farming uses, with none of the nasty chemicals. None of this is mainstream today, but in the next ten, 20 years, it’ll become mainstream and all of us will eat through those new ways of growing food and to me that’s hugely exciting. Anna: The rise of hydroponics, growing food underground, things like that? Timo: Totally, yup. But it’s in an embryonic stage right now. Well, that’s it from me. Is there anything else you’d like to add? Timo: The one piece of advice I’d give to anyone starting a business is to really focus on managing yourself before you manage other people. I think that’s one of my biggest learnings in building Gousto. Having deep recognition of your own strengths and weaknesses, knowing how to handle your demons, solving your weaknesses, turning weaknesses into sources of energy and strength. You need to understand the ups and downs of the emotional rollercoaster of entrepreneurship. I think that learning this and building up the self-awareness and appreciation then allows you to have the energy to talk to other people and build them up when they’re down and to lead other people. But that to me is one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned.   To help our listeners, what would you say is your greatest strength and weakness? How did you go about realising that and managing it? Timo: My strengths are that I like people and I’m a people person. I’d say that I’m 99pc extroverted. I have huge levels of energy – I never run out of energy. From a weakness point, I’d say that I don’t pay much attention to process and how we get there. I’m more focused on the idea and empowering the right people and I think that can alienate certain people sometimes because they might be more interested than I am in the exact process of how we get there. Whereas I feel like if we’ve got the right people, I should cheerlead them and they figure it out. So over time, if you look at our team that’s surrounding me, they all pretty much play to my strengths, they offset some of my weaknesses, they are amazing at process and structure which I’m not the best at. I think that if you’ve built a system that plays to your strengths, you’re absolutely fine to apologise for your weaknesses every once in a while. Anna: That’s really good advice. Well, thank you for that Timo and thank you for coming on the podcast. Timo: Thanks so much and that was super fun. Thank you.      Anna: You can find out more about Gousto at gousto.co.uk. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more information on artificial intelligence and improving sustainability. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Anna Jordan talks to Jackie Fast, an entrepreneur, author, speaker and candidate on The Apprentice in 2018. We discuss how to build a business at home and how to get started with sponsorships.   Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on bootstrapping your business and managing your cash flow. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Read the transcript for the podcast interview Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. In this episode we have Jackie Fast, an entrepreneur, speaker, author and former candidate on The Apprentice. She came to the UK from Canada in 2007 as a first stop on her European backpacking tour but decided to stick around and work as a sponsorship director at the Data & Marketing Association instead. In 2010, Jackie began building her business, Slingshot Sponsorship. She sold the firm in 2016 and is now running REBEL Pi, a Canadian ice wine company.  We’ll be talking about building a business from home and how to make sponsorship work for you. Anna: Hello, Jackie. Jackie: Hello, Anna. Anna: How are you doing? Jackie: I’m very good, thanks. Great. Let’s start with your arrival in the UK. What made you decide to give up your backpacking adventure to work in London and build a business here instead? Jackie: Honestly when I arrived – I’m from a small town in Canada – my experience was minimal. I’ve always been very ambitious and very determined. A lot of the people around me were not so much. So when I came to London it really was to explore Europe because obviously people talk about it and I’d never been to Paris. When I landed in London I was just overwhelmed with the energy of the city – not necessarily the energy you’d get from a city like New York but the people and the views that the people had here and the types of work that they were doing. I met a lot of people in finance and I didn’t even know that was a job that you could have and I was just blown away. It wasn’t an immediate thing. I was supposed to be here for two weeks and then travel the rest of Europe and then I was like: ‘Oh, I love London, I’ll stay a couple more weeks, that went on to a couple more months and then I was like: ‘I don’t want to leave’ and then over time I thought: ‘I just really want to stay here.’    When you launched Slingshot Sponsorship you only had a laptop and £2,000. How did you support yourself financially in the early days of the business? I’m sure a lot of our listeners will want to know. Jackie: Not well! I’m pretty frugal, actually – generally. But basically, over those initial months I just cut back hardcore. I didn’t really leave the house for weeks on end. I wasn’t eating beans on toast, but I was certainly eating a lot of ready meals and stir fries and cereal. But for the first, I’d say, year and a half, I wouldn’t even go to Starbucks. I couldn’t even afford takeout coffee, quite frankly, because every single pound I saved was going towards hiring my first employee and it was really hard. Slingshot got successful early, but I didn’t really have personal money for at least two or three years, I’d say. And you know, I only literally just bought this house when I sold the business. Up until then, all my friends owned houses and I couldn’t afford to – I was renting. But I always had it in me that I’d make that sacrifice. We’re recording in Jackie’s house, by the way, just for a bit of context. What about income? Jackie: So, £2,000 could pay the rent for four months, basically, and I took a couple of commission-only things. I had a lot of small clients. It took me nine months to secure my first client. So, I’d take small jobs that’d pay £500, £600, £1,000 and I’d just live off those kinds of things and those kinds of projects. I worked hard to try to get people to give me money, like all small businesses do, but I was really conscious about how much money I spent. And our website is a great example. When we launched Slingshot I went out to loads of agencies, everybody was quoting something like £7,000, £6,000 and I didn’t even have the money. I ended up going to a digital agency who I knew through the Data Marketing Association and asked to swap, to be kind of like a case study for them. It was kind of like a guinea pig thing and I ended up paying, like, nothing for it. I just bartered for everything. Anna: It’s interesting because they say entrepreneurs, even when they start earning a lot more money, still have the frugal mindset all those years later. Jackie: Yeah, I’ve always been like that. My husband jokes a lot because before I sold Slingshot and after I sold Slingshot – there’s no difference. We have a nice house and we’ve had some great travelling experiences for sure. But I don’t spend a lot of money – we don’t spend a lot of money. Almost all of the money I made from Slingshot has been reinvested in other businesses. I bought our house which is a huge accomplishment for me, but everything else has gone into making more money.            Anna: Usually we ask about our guest’s specialisms, which in this case is sponsorships. Jackie: It’s everything, Anna. What do you mean, just sponsorship?! For a beginner, what is sponsorship and how can a small business owner make opportunities work for them? Jackie: In a nutshell, sponsorship is a collaboration between two businesses. Most people look at sponsorship as a transaction of giving somebody logos or branding or badging in return for money, but in a lot of cases the big sponsorships are done in contra. In a way, the website agency I was just talking about – I swapped to be a case study for them and they gave me a website. In a sense that was a sponsorship and I think the future of all business is sponsorship. Most people will be familiar with stuff like FireFest and Beats by Dre. All of that is sponsorship.     Any kind of collaboration between two organisations is effectively sponsorship. How do you handle that first approach, then? I imagine that those relationships and creating those first impressions are very important. Jackie: Actually, one of the things you said was the right and the other thing you didn’t. A lot of people think it’s who you know. Everybody thinks: ‘Well, I could sell sponsorship if I just knew the head of HSBC.’ I know the head of HSBC and I’ve never ever sold him anything because I everything I ever had wasn’t a good fit for what they did. Knowing people isn’t the point but what you also said is having a first impression. Where people fall flat is they don’t really understand what they’re selling, they don’t package it very well and they don’t value it. It’d be like going into a shop without a price tag, with rubbish stuff in the window, you wouldn’t go in. Same deal with sponsorship. And I think there needs to be an increase in professionalism for making those approaches and I think that Slingshot was testament to that because effectively, that’s all we did. I didn’t create events, I didn’t make something better – I took what I had and made it valuable to brands. When a small business is starting out, what kind of information and events can they seek out to help them? Jackie: I think there are two things. If you’re a rights holder, say you are an event or an online publication or a podcast or a travel blogger or whatever, it really is about how you package your assets and then understanding which brands to approach. I’ve written a book called Pinpoint which is the only book dedicated to sponsorship sales. If you are a brand looking for a sponsorship, that in a way is easier because everybody wants money but from a brand perspective, it really is Is the event you’re interested in going to speak to your target audience? Do you have a good reason for being there? Is it authentic? Are you going to approach it in an interesting way? How can you connect with people in a genuine and authentic way? And that’s best done by market research? Jackie: I think it’s dependent on the brand but yeah, market research, I think, understanding your audience. Let’s just say you’re after mums. Let’s say you’re a new gym for mums, or… I don’t know, I’m not a mother, this is the worst thing to go! You can actually look for a platform out there to reach mums. Race for Life is a huge one and it’s in local communities. But let’s say you want mums based in Leeds. You can find forums and groups within Leeds and the events they’re approaching or the physical venue space. There might be a digital community or a forum and then say: ‘This is my product and I’m interested in working with you as a sponsorship.’ Not advertising – I’d never recommend advertising. And most people will have a sponsorship package. What kind of things should you be looking for in that package, then? Jackie: I would always look for opportunities that go beyond a logo – I don’t think badging is valuable anymore. Brand recall used to be valuable in the 80s, but we’re hit with 60,000 messages a day now. Your brain just gets tuned off. So, I’d be looking for what kind of assets engage with your audience. Speaking opportunities would be something because they give you an opportunity to talk. Guest blog spots, posts, can we run a joint promotion, a campaign? Can we distribute free product? Those are the kinds of things I think really push the needle on sponsorship.     As mentioned in the intro, these days you’re running Rebel Pi, an ice wine company, which is quite a niche. It’s also quite a risky business – you were explaining that it’s very dependent on temperature, weather conditions and people being able to pick grapes quickly in the middle of the night at short notice. How do you manage this risk, particularly in terms of cash flow? Jackie: I’d probably say that I’m not managing it well. I went from selling ideas to selling a physical product which I wanted to do to test myself. It is very hard from a production standpoint because the only way to make ice wine is picking grapes at below -8C. If it doesn’t get below -8C, you don’t have a vintage, you don’t have a product. So, you have to be patient, you have to work with really smart people in the vineyard who know how to create ice wine each year and you have to be willing to ride it out. In our first year, we’ve done really well, we’ve sold about 60pc of our bottles. It’s now listed in places like City Social, 67 Pall Mall, Pied a Terre, Dinner by Heston – all those kinds of top places. Now for me it’s asking: ‘Do we have enough production for next year?’ We’re holding back stock, so that if we didn’t get a vintage next year, we could then still distribute. I wouldn’t want you to be able to go into a restaurant, be able to order it and then next month you can’t – for 12 months. I’m managing stock but from a financial perspective, I’m taking a hit, basically. I’m not talking about being profitable on this until year three, really. It will be – if all things go to plan – it’s not winter yet – if all things go to plan, it should be fine for next year. But in the event that we’re not, I’m looking long-term at this.   I created this product because I was on TV and I didn’t want to waste my 15 minutes of fame. I wanted to have something that people could buy. That was a stupid strategy because the majority of the people who watch The Apprentice are 14-year-old girls. They can’t even legally buy my wine! I launched the business with an expectation that was incorrect and I’ve had to fix it. I’ve changed the strategy and everything’s fine. It’s great – I’m super-excited to be working with a product that you can touch, you can taste – I’m excited about it.     It does seem like you have a very clear target market, especially the premium which I think people are moving away from more disposable, fast type things to buying less but better quality. It’s a better direction to go in. Jackie: For sure – people are drinking less, people are buying less, but when they do it, they want to enjoy it. That’s certainly what I’ve found personally, and amongst my group of friends. And the greatest thing about ice wine in the UK market is that almost nobody’s had it. When do you get to give somebody a first? It’s so unheard of. I’m so excited about that.          Yeah, for sure. You mentioned The Apprentice and it giving you a kind of platform. But you were already a seasoned and successful entrepreneur when you went on The Apprentice, having sold Slingshot. Alan Sugar even fired for you for being too experienced to be the business partner that he wanted. What did you get out of the programme in the end? Jackie: I’ll go back to the first part. The only reason I did The Apprentice was because I sold my business. I don’t know if I would’ve had the courage to do so before, but I’d built enough of a name for myself so if I came across looking awful, at least I had a fallback on my previous success. Well, I mean you don’t know. You have no idea what you’re going into, so I was lucky. Anna: So much of it is in the edit as well, isn’t it? You never know what’s going to happen! Jackie: It’s unrealistic to think that – first of all, it’s an entertainment programme and I am not stupid to not be aware of that. It would also be naïve to think that you are 100pc great 100pc of the time. There are very long days, you’re working with people you don’t know, you have no idea what to expect, you can’t prep at all. All of those mistakes that I made that were absolutely hilarious, I totally made. That’s not an edit, that’s 100pc what I did because that’s what happens – that’s what happens in life. You just don’t have a camera following you around 24/7 waiting for you to mess up. But in terms of what I took away from it, so when I got asked, I was like: ‘I don’t even know if I can do this’, but then I did. My husband was very kind and said if I was awful, we would fly to India and blow off steam for a year. Fortunately, we didn’t have to move. Now, in hindsight, if you asked if I would do it again I would do it in a heartbeat. It was so different than what I expected. What I got out of it was experience doing totally different things which I love. If I could spend a year doing that every single day, I would. Anna: Oh yeah, the variety’s so much fun. Jackie: I got to make doughnuts, I sold stuff at a bodybuilding thing, I created an art gallery. You couldn’t do those things in a lifetime. I was really fortunate to do that. I still talk to Claude Littner (one of Lord Sugar’s advisors) a lot and he’s been great and met some great people on it as well. What was your favourite part of the process? Jackie: I think my favourite part – at the time it was pretty stressful – I can say that I didn’t love being in the house. I loved doing the tasks. My favourite task was possibly the art task. Wait no, actually, that’s a lie – the shoe task! I lost, but my favourite task though. What made it your favourite? Jackie: I got to design a shoe! I love shoes and I got to be the boss, which I like to be because it’s easier. It was a lot of fun. It also played to my wheelhouse like selling stuff to businesses – and B2B sales is what I do. You said you got along well with Claude. There was one contestant you didn’t have a particularly good relationship with. What advice do you have for working with a personality that clashes with your own? Jackie: I think The Apprentice isn’t a real-life situation. My recommendation to myself was having more patience which I did not have. In a real-life situation, honestly, and this is not what people would say – avoid the person, quite honestly. You won’t always get on with everybody, and people won’t always get along with you. And that’s OK, there’s nothing wrong with that. Being able to work with somebody that you don’t like is an asset. I wouldn’t try to beat a dead horse. You shouldn’t really be there to make friends with people, you’re there to do your job. You should also try not to make their job harder. My honest advice would be to have minimal interaction with the person you don’t like. Anna: Just trying to stay out of each other’s space, I guess. Jackie: Which in The Apprentice was impossible because we were living together!   Anna: Smashing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Jackie. Jackie: Thanks for having me, Anna. Anna: You can find out more about Jackie at jackiefast.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on bootstrapping your business and managing your cash flow. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.    

Anna Jordan meets Piers Linney, an entrepreneur, investor and former Dragon on Dragon's Den. We discuss the most memorable pitches from the show as well as Piers' first foray into entrepreneurship.    Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on starting a business and raising external finance. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Piers Linney, an entrepreneur and investor who is best known for his time as a Dragon on Dragon’s Den. We’ll be talking about Piers’ enterprising beginnings and how you can drive your small business forward, even during difficult spells.  Anna: Hello Piers. Piers: Hi Anna. Anna: How are you? Piers: Very good. Anna: Great. OK, as the intro suggests, I’d like to go back a bit. As we know, it’s easier for entrepreneurs to get started earlier and reach a larger audience, helped by the likes of selling platforms like eBay and Depop. But you were just as entrepreneurial, even when you were a teenager – that was before the introduction of social media, apps. I understand that you used to sell the Sunday papers, but you bypassed the… Piers: Ah, you’re going way back now! [laughs] Yup, yup, I did. So, you bypassed the newsagent because you saw a gap in the market there and you want to the wholesaler and distributed the Sunday paper around your neighbourhood. Piers: Yes, so, just going back to your earlier point. The fact that you can start a business more easily these days – there are platforms that help you in terms of distribution – it doesn’t mean you should. It’s still about the idea. What I learned early on – I’ve always been fascinated about business, really – I grew up in a village in Milltown, so a lot of the neighbours had their own businesses. I didn’t really know anybody who had a job in terms of getting up in the morning and going off to work. They were builders, joiners, jobs that you work with your hands. Maybe owned a quarry. I sort of thought: ‘Right, I had a job’ which was my paper round, which paid £5 a week. If I was late it was £4.50, which shows you how long ago this was. And I thought: ‘This is just a mug’s game’. It was very cold up in the north in those days. Global warming’s made it easier. And I thought: ‘What can I do?’ So, one morning on a Sunday when they [the newsagent] didn’t deliver, my dad said to me: ‘Could you get me my paper? I don’t want to get out of bed.’ And I said: ‘OK, I’ll go and get it for you.’ And he gave me 50p. I said: ‘Hang on a minute, that’s pretty good money compared to what I’m earning on my paper round.’ The next-door neighbour said to me: ‘Oh, can you do the same?’ My dad was telling him about the new service. And I thought: ‘Hang on, there’s something in this.’ I flyered my whole neighbourhood and built a paper round. I was earning £15-£20 on a Sunday morning for doing a bit of a longer paper round, but it was first entrée and my first understanding that if you find a niche and you find a product or a service that somebody wants and it adds value to their lives, and they’re willing to pay you more than it costs to deliver that service, i.e. it’s profitable, then you can create value and – in this case, it was a small example – some wealth. I used that money to buy my first and very expensive BMX. And through that I understand that the idea’s great and the execution clearly, but what it also came down to is a lot of hard work and graft. I Imagine it must’ve taken quite a bit of confidence as well at that age. How did you approach the wholesaler and how did they respond to you? Piers: I’ve never lacked self-confidence and it’s probably something that’s helpful in being an entrepreneur. Becoming confident or becoming a leader in many ways is something that can be instilled in you or you can be born with it, or it’s something you can learn. In the military, they can train leaders. I was always confident, and I could see the opportunity to make money. And again, the wholesaler, all he got was another customer, it just wasn’t a newsagent. His bundle of papers, rather than drop it outside a newsagent, was dropped off at someone’s house, at a residential address. He didn’t really care – he was just making a bit more money.                 I understand that your mother set up her own business after retiring from nursing in the NHS, I’m sure that was some kind of inspiration to you.   Piers: People say to me: ‘Who are your role models in life?’ I’ve never had formal mentors. My initial role models were my parents. My dad was a Mancunian working-class lad who got into Cambridge on a scholarship, so he was bright. Then after that, it was people that I worked with. I’ve always worked with people who are more senior that are better than me. Then after that, I’ve always tried to hire people that are better than me. I’ve had three meetings today and they’ve all been with people that know more about something that I’m looking to get into. And that’s really important because you never have all the answers. The world’s moving so quickly now and the market is so dynamic that you can’t be expected to have the answers. And if you think you have, you’re probably wrong. What would you say in terms of small businesses being able to hire better talent? Perhaps because they’re nimbler, they can innovate at a faster rate. Would you agree with that? Piers: I’ve been through this quite a few times where you’ve got a small business and you want to attract talent. Now, a couple of things: the first one is that, really, you shouldn’t be concerned about where talent resides. If you want to have a talented forklift truck driver, they probably need to live reasonably close to your warehouse. But if you’re looking at the creative economy and tech-based businesses, talent can live anywhere now. It doesn’t matter. The idea of a city even is arguably unnecessary going forward into the future. Don’t worry about where talent is, just go for the best talent. You’ve then got to be more creative to access more talent because they’re going to have more people talking to them, they might have a nice cushy job in a big company. You’ve got to be more creative about how you bring them onboard, about renumeration. If you’ve got a company you intend to sell or float one day, you can offer people shares. You shouldn’t give shares in a company that’s intending to be a lifestyle business forever – unless you’re going to make money in dividends. Think about how you’re going to add value to their lives. A lot of the entrepreneurs I come across think that these senior people who are joining them are doing them a favour. But you’ve got to remember that you’re doing them a favour actually because if they didn’t want to leave corporate life and do something more interesting and entrepreneurial where they have a better work-life balance, they wouldn’t be talking to you. And when you bring people onboard – no matter who they are, how talented they are – think very carefully about handing out shares. Make sure that when they leave, for whatever reason, you can get them back. But the talent is out there. And the other thing about talent that I’m very passionate about is diversity. There’s a pool of talent. If you’re looking for people who look like you, have the same religious beliefs as you, same sexuality as you, they live in the same area and went to the same school as you, you’re limiting your talent pool. Don’t do that. You need to think about diversity in all of its forms, especially in terms of thought as well, to access a broader and deeper talent pool. That’s the competitive advantage. There’s a huge amount of talent out there. I’m a trustee of Nesta as well, the innovation charity, and if you look forwards, the research about robotics and AI, menial jobs and even jobs such as accountants and lawyers [are at risk]. Software’s pretty good at adding up numbers, it’s pretty good at looking at datasets and applying logic to it. It’s not just Uber drivers and forklift truck drivers that have got a problem; it’s the professions. So, creativity is what differentiates us from the machines. And the talent you access in the future is going to have that creative edge. My mantra is that you’ve got to have a plan, but your plan has to have some growth in it. Add some creativity, some innovation, some differentiation to your product or service to attract different customers. Having no plan for growth, in a world that is changing very quickly, is a very bad plan. You wake up one morning, and you find your market, your customers, your product, your supply chain – something’s changed which means that you’re no longer relevant or you no longer have a profit margin. Anna: I was actually reading an article about ice cream vans the other day and they seem to be a type of business that – there are some that have moved forward but a lot of them are in the same types of vans, still doing your normal vanilla with a Flake and they haven’t moved on and they’re wondering [why they’re falling behind]. Piers: They should be doing smoothie vans! Anna: Yeah! Piers: It doesn’t matter what you do, 20-30 years ago – I’m generalising now – you could do that. I don’t think it’s a wise plan these days – ice cream van, corner shop, tech company, it doesn’t matter – to rest on your laurels. You’ve got to keep talking to your customers about what it is they want so you understand change, ideally before it happens.                        You’ve spoken a bit about instilling the values of entrepreneurialism. How are you doing that with your two daughters? Piers: Another interesting thing I’m quite interested in is the future of work, the future of employment. Dell has some research that says in 30 years, 85pc of the jobs that exist don’t exist today. There’s other research that says ten years out, half of them don’t exist today. You’ve got an education system that’s training your children to enter a world that the teachers don’t understand, that I don’t understand. It’s very difficult. They’ve got to equip kids with these sorts of skills and keep them as a rally car, as I call it, to the unweighted so you could go left or right as you go over the brow of the hill – and that’s hard to do. My daughter – I’ve got a daughter called Tiger. I got called into school, actually, by the head teacher. She said she’s been selling things at school and they need to talk to her. I thought she’d made a couple of quid. I asked what happened and the teacher said: ‘She got some erasers and she was making them funky and selling them on at a margin.’ I asked how much money she made and she said £60. They said that I need to tell her off and I refused. I take the point about taking money off the other kids, maybe there should be some kind of bartering, but I’m not going to punish my daughter for being entrepreneurial and making some money – that’s all she’s ever seen me do! Anna: Exactly. Do you know who her dad is?! Piers: It was quite interesting to see that. I bring them up to – they’re young, so I don’t really sit them down and go over how to start a business with them. But I think they get it, that my view is that – especially when they enter the labour market – is if you can, work for yourself. It’s got its problems, you sacrifice, it’s got its risks, but at the end of the day you’re masters of your own destiny. You seem to have a knack for identifying emerging markets as well [Piers launched cloud tech firm Outsourcery before the cloud was popular]. What kind of emerging markets do you see coming up?  Piers: I was into the telecoms which was the tail-end of that, really, the particular way it was done. I was into cloud and cloud is the way things are now. Since then I’ve been looking at what I do next. I made some investments, some work and some don’t, and I’ve been looking at doing something big, something disruptive. I’ve been looking at wellness, so health, fitness and now I’m looking now more at going back almost into what I know, which is markets, SME services. I’m trying to disrupt those because a lot of them just have not changed, even since I was in them ten years ago. And even ten years before that, they haven’t changed. I think there’s an opportunity in there in services for small to medium-sized businesses to disrupt markets.      Coming on to everybody’s favourite, Dragon’s Den. I’m sure you would’ve had a lot of pitches in your time on the show, but which was the most memorable one for you and why? Piers: There’s two, I suppose. I’ll give you the negative, funny one first. That was Bathomatic, which was a chap that turned up wanting £1m or £2m for 20pc and he had a product which pretty much filled a bath and dropped some rose oil in it. I said I’ll do that myself actually. I don’t need to spend £15,000 on something that turns a tap on and off. We asked what the money was really for. He had this pretend plaque/device that didn’t really work, it was a mock-up, and he said he needed a floor in the Shard for the marketing suite. You laugh at that, but I’ve heard about entrepreneurs who have got equally bonkers ideas and raised money from people. That was one of the comedy moments. The most interesting one for me was a company that at the time was called Lost My Name and now it’s called Wonderbly. That was the leading producer of personalised children’s, it was books, now it’s increasingly content. They raised investment from the likes of Google and other venture firms, and they’ve been growing. I was one of the first to do real tech on Dragon’s Den. There were four or five Israeli entrepreneurs walked in the Den and they all had their venture capital term sheet and I thought: ‘What’s there not to like?’ They knew what they were talking about and that’s been very successful. So hopefully out of Dragon’s Den I’ll make some money because it’s like a portfolio – some work, some don’t, some you lose money, some make money. Anna: Yeah, it was as you were saying as well, personalisation is a huge market and growing, as is tech, so combine that – Piers: Personalisation is everywhere now. I’ve met lots of founders recently and whether it’s books or baby’s clothes, technology allows you to do that now. It was very hard, very expensive to do this. Companies like the Moonpigs and all those kind of people in the world and the moo.coms, personalised greetings cards and business cards, is normal now. It was very hard to do a decade ago, so personalisation is somewhere where you can really add value. People want to see personalisation, they want to see provenance, they want to know the founder’s story. The new consumer that’s beginning to amass disposable income, they want to see more, they don’t want to have some clever advert that’s sold on something they don’t really want. But increasingly, people are interested in – not all sectors – but they’re interested in where did this product come from, who’s put it together, what’s the ethos of that business – how do they treat their customers, their employees, the environment – locally, globally. That’s what you need to think about because especially on the eco side of things you’re seeing now that the Millennials, whatever you want to call them – Gen Z – Millennials now have the… Anna: Hiya! Piers: Like yourself. Millennials are mid-level managers in most companies now, they’re moving up, because they’re getting older. And they are changing the way in which products and services are consumed – because these were little things that didn’t matter too much, they were seen as ‘got to have it for the marketing’. Now you’ve got to have it because if you don’t have it, they’re not going to buy your product or service. Anna: And it’s so easy to research as well. So, if there’s something you fall down on, people can research it. Boom – there you go. Piers: That means you have to be transparent about it as well.  Because if you’re not, people are going to start asking questions. You don’t have to be, always. There are lots of people that make good money out of businesses that don’t do any of this. They just found a product. I mean, mobile phones. I used to be in mobile, and people made a lot of money out of it and the service was pretty awful. But at the end of the day, they had a product that selling it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Because it was an amazing new product that everyone wanted, nobody had one, so you couldn’t really go wrong – and those markets haven’t really changed much since. At the time of recording, it is Small Business Advice Week. This year it’s running from 2nd-8th September. First off, it’s a little bit difficult to get around this topic and it may very well change by the time the podcast goes live. What advice do you have for small businesses to prepare and operate in the event of a no-deal Brexit? Piers: Well, the problem with that is that we don’t know what a no-deal Brexit means. That’s the bad thing about it: we should not be in this position. The economy depends upon entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship and innovation. And having a period of time where – and I’ve seen this – on a large scale and also on a small scale, where investment, decisions, sales cycles, things have been delayed. That slows the economy down and it has slowed the economy down and that’s going to continue. And even if we end up with a no-deal, and it’s been said that over time, we’re all dead. So, if you’re looking at it in one year it’s probably bad but in five years, ten years, things change and water will find its level again. But there’s going to be a period of time where the innovation in the UK, the economy and entrepreneurs are being stifled. And I don’t care what the outcome is, we should never have been put in this position. So, in terms of answering your question, it’s very hard. It actually makes sense, and I hate saying this, it does make sense in many ways to delay investments. Maybe in terms of marketing or looking overseas or EU relationships or your supply chain. Just give it a week. It was worse six months ago, at least now you’re looking at maybe days and weeks. It’s a very hard question to answer. Anna: It is, isn’t it? Piers: It’s incredibly frustrating. Anna: Yeah, we’ve had so many people ask. Piers: There’s no easy answer to that, sadly. Possibly something a little more positive. What is the most common question you get and what advice do you give small business owners in return?    Piers: One thing I’m talking about this week a lot is financing. I’ve worked in the US quite a lot and you look at entrepreneurs there and even small business owners, the ones who aren’t looking to grow exponentially, it’s about if you need to grow a business sometimes, your net income, your profits, don’t provide sufficient capital to fund your growth aspirations. You need to raise money. That could be debt, it might be equity. It depends where your business is in its life cycle and its profitability, and your balance sheet. And a lot of UK entrepreneurs, it seems, are afraid of raising external finance. So, raising external finance isn’t for everybody, but given the numbers are 70pc-80pc of UK businesses would rather forego growth than raise external finance, that needs to change. I don’t know exactly how much, but by changing it you can put more into the engine of the UK economy, and how these businesses grow. And that’s really simplistically about understanding your options. There are lots more options now: peer to peer lending or challenger banks or angels or angel funds, crowdfunding. There’s lots more ways you can raise capital which you couldn’t do five, even three years ago in some cases. Go and look at the options if you need to grow, understand them and then it comes down to a contract. Be happy with the terms of that contract and the small print. Can you lose your business, can you lose your shirt? Are they draconian terms? This is where you need a good lawyer, I’m not joking about that either. When someone hands over a term sheet or a document for debt (or a shareholder agreement if you’re looking at equity), you need to understand exactly what that means for you and not just if things go well. You need to understand what happens if things don’t go well. Extreme examples – there’s no point having an investment agreement where you are restricted, you have a veto of you raising debt and equity if you need to raise more because they can hold a gun to your head, essentially. There’s no point having documentation for your start-up which says that in year four, you will hit this EBITDAR number (Earnings Before Interest, Depreciation, Amoritisation and Restructuring or Rent costs) or they have swamp rights. They can take over the board and fire you. They’re extreme examples, but I’ve seen them. Both professionally and I’ve seen them in things put before me as well. So, understand the detail and the small print and make sure that if things don’t go to plan, you know where you stand. And I’ve known one example recently where someone built a business, they had a 12 million evaluation, they raised £2-£3million and within a month, they were out. They missed some sales target. But don’t be afraid of raising finance if you want to grow because otherwise in many, many cases, you can’t really grow. Anna: Well, that’s it from me unless there’s anything else that you’d like to add. Piers: No - we’ve covered some ground there. Anna: Thanks for coming on the show, Piers. Piers: It’s a pleasure. Anna: You can find out more about Piers at pierslinney.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more information on starting and growing your own business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Anna Jordan meets Nicola Horlick, an investment fund manager and founder of business P2P lending firm, Money&Co. She talks about the slowing economy and why you should never go into the restaurant business.    Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles about peer to peer lending.   Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Nicola Horlick, an entrepreneur and investment manager with other thirty years of experience. She’s the CEO of P2P investment firm, Money&Co, and as such, we’ll be talking about business finance. Anna: Hello, Nicola. Nicola: Hi. Anna: How are you doing? Nicola: Very well, thanks. First, I’d like to ask you about moving from finance. How is it becoming an entrepreneur for the first time having worked in that industry for quite a while? Nicola: Yeah, well originally, I worked for big banks and I was very lucky. I started at a big bank that was going very strongly and after that I was sent to another bank which had a very major problem with one of its businesses and I had to turn it around. And then I went to the French bank, SocGen (Société Générale) and they asked me to set up a fund management business for them literally from scratch, so it was just me, a Frenchman and a secretary on day one. That naturally took me to the point of saying “I really need to do something on my own now.” I’d sort of done everything within the banking environment and having literally set up a business from scratch it then gave me the bug, so to speak. The next step after that was to set up a fund management business with no big bank – just me – and getting some backers. I set it up in 2004 and it was approved in 2005 by the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) that was Bramdean Asset Management. I’ve set up numerous different businesses since then, mostly around finance. In 2011, I set up a private equity business called Rockpool with two guys who are both ex-3i (an international investor group). I then also set up some film finance businesses and I got involved in the music industry and I listed a vehicle on the London Stock Exchange to invest in alternative investments. And then I’ve done less successful things like setting up a restaurant which was a very, very bad idea. I’m still trying to extricate myself from that now. But you know, it’s led me to a different world, really. And then ultimately I set up Money&Co in 2013 and Money&Co is a peer to peer lending platform. So, it’s individuals who want a better rate on their cash lending to businesses to help them grow. Our bad debt experience to date has only been 0.04pc per annum. We’ve actually only had one bad debt in five years. And so with this, it’s not that we’re unique – there are others, Funding Circle is massive – that lend to small businesses. We take a more considered approach. It’s mainly because I’m a fund manager and I’ve been an investor for so long. Whereas a lot of the people running these businesses might come from different backgrounds – they might come from tech or marketing backgrounds rather than money management backgrounds. What criteria do you look for in the businesses you want to invest in? Nicola: So, we have some very basic requirements, like you must have three years of filed accounts; the company must have been profitable in the last year of operation; and it needs to demonstrate to us that it’s affordable for them to borrow so we’ll never ever lend to a start-up, for example. I’d like to talk a bit about the peer to peer lending market. On the retail side, the FCA are introducing tighter rules for retail investors after the collapse of Lendy. How is that going to affect the business investment side and the industry as a whole? Nicola: Well as far as I’m concerned, it’s a very good thing. Because when it started it was what was known as ‘light touch regulation’. So there weren’t many rules and it did concern me that there were people running these services who often didn’t have a financial services background and I’m not sure that’s the right thing for the lenders. A lot of them are older as well and are looking for income and it’s important to protect them as much as you can. So I actually welcome the new regime which is going to come on 9th December by the FCA which is going to tighten up on all of this stuff because it’s hopefully going to mean that the right people are lending and that the people doing the lending on their behalf are better qualified to do that and that their money is better protected. So, Money&Co, as far as you can see, will always exist as a P2P lender? Will you ever introduce other products? Nicola: I mean we could, but that might confuse people. I think we should focus on that because there are huge opportunities in lending. My own background is very much an equity background, so I’m relatively new. I’ve only being doing lending for five years out of 36 years of being in financial services., so I’m a relative novice. There are huge areas of lending that you can bring into the P2P arena. So for example, leasing is an absolutely vast industry. There’s £100bn a year of leasing contracts in this country, 25 of which is business critical leasing. So that’s the printing press for the printing company or the trucks for the trucking company or the dental suite for the dentist: things that those businesses can absolutely not do without. There is absolutely no reason you can’t put those in a P2P environment, those types of loans. And housebuilding is a very good example of where banks are reluctant to lend – there’s a shortage of housing in this country. There’s no reason why we can’t devise a product and in fact we are in the middle of doing just that, for that industry to build more houses. And that’s taken us to the point of thinking that prefab has never properly taken off in this country. It’s much more of a thing in countries like Germany and Austria, but that’s a way of building them much faster and in a much more eco-friendly way, because you can insulate them in the factory and you can put the houses up in a couple of weeks. You can fast-track the build so that instead of having men standing out in the rain putting one brick on top of another, which is crazy in this day and age, you can assemble them really fast and you can make much more interesting developments architecturally. It’s a bit like LEGO; you can have all different shapes and you can make it more interesting. So, we’re looking at ways of raising money from institutions to actually fund housebuilders. Now these would still in effect be P2P loans but from an institution lending to a housebuilder rather than an individual lending to a housebuilder. Coming back to you as an entrepreneur, I understand that Money&Co has suffered a significant financial loss [£1.4m going into March 2018]. You have said there’ll be a substantial profit going into March 2020. What are your recovery plans and how will you go about setting them? Nicola: Ugh, this is such a typical Daily Mail story. If you actually look at how much money we’ve lost in the last five years and compare that to Funding Circle, it’s a fraction of the amount. Funding Circle in 2018 lost £50m in one year. Money&Co has made very small losses relative to Funding Circle. My aim is to make the business profitable as soon as possible because I don’t really believe in building businesses that make losses and losses and losses. And we could’ve lent an awful lot more money if we’d burned more money, but that’s not our approach. Our approach is to build it in a very steady way and I do expect to make a profit… well, certainly break even in the year to 2020. In fact, we may not because it depends how much we spend on marketing. And you know, if we really want to accelerate the growth of the business, we may decide we want to spend more on marketing. If we spent less, we could make a profit; if we spent more, we’re going to end up with a bigger business the year after. It’s a fine line. How do you make that decision of whether the marketing is worth it? Nicola: Well, just before I spoke to you, we were having a meeting about that and just going through our marketing strategy and trying to decide how much we should spend. It’s quite formulaic, really. We sort of know. Of course, we’ve got this problem – not really a problem – but the fact we’ve got the FCA which is tightening up all the rules which makes direct consumer marketing a little bit more complex than it was previously. But it’s a bit binary, you know – if you spend this amount of money on Google in its various forms, you’re likely to get a certain number of clients. So it’s really a matter of how much we want to put into the hopper and how much we’re going to get out at the other end. And also, how many loans we’ve got that we think need to be funded? But assuming we are able to get the institutional money that we need to get to help us fund housebuilders, we’ll certainly be at break-even and probably make profit by the year to March 2020. But I don’t make any apology – it’s a start-up fintech business. That’s what fintech businesses do, make losses. You started up in 2013, correct? Nicola: So the company was formed in 2013 and then we launched the business in 2014, April, the site went live. And we completed the first loan in July 2014.  Right, OK. Normally with a start-up company, it’s usually the first year or so that’s a bit crackly but then it starts to even out after that. Nicola: What, in terms of profitability? Anna: Yeah. Nicola: Yeah, well not in fintech. If you look at all the people with fintech businesses who have been running them over the last few years, you’ll see that they’ve all made big losses. It’s sort of accepted that when it’s a new industry, you’ve got to establish the industry and you’ve got to throw money at it in order to create it. It’s not like setting up shops – well actually, shops are a pretty bad example because they’re not very easy to do these days – but there are more traditional businesses where somebody might have been working for an engineering company and then sets up on their own. Usually the rule is that companies move into profit in year three, in its third full year of operation, that’s what I’d normally expect. But you know, with this, there’s a discretionary element to it which is the marketing spend. We could just run a business that is profitable and keep it small, or we could decide to make it to make it a lot bigger and in order to do that we need to spend a lot of money on marketing. What do you think about the state of business in the UK, especially in the light of Brexit? Nicola: Nobody seems to have noticed that the economy has slowed down very significantly. And we do see it – though a lot of our loans are property-backed loans, we do have some engineering businesses, for example, that we’ve lent to, that are beginning to see a slowdown. And that is Brexit-related in that uncertainty means that people don’t make decisions. So, businesses have not been investing because they don’t know what’s going to happen and there is evidence that car manufacturing companies, for example, are beginning to move things out of the UK. And the number of cars being manufactured in the UK is down 20pc so far this year on the same time last year. These things are beginning to impact on the economy, and they’ll have knock-on effects on all of the businesses we lend to, which is one of the reasons for being very cautious and one of the reasons why I have been so cautious about growing our book. But yeah, I have found generally, during my investing life, that I make a lot more money in bad times than in good. Because in good times any fool can make money, because everything is going up. In bad times, your skill comes into play. It sounds counter-intuitive, but I’m likely to be lending a lot more money in a recession than when things are booming because I will be taking on less risky loans. It’s just that lenders tend to withdraw; they react to recessionary conditions. The banks react during recessions. So, during a recession, there are more opportunities for people who have money to lend. I expect there to be a recession and I expect to build the loan book faster, rather strangely, than I was when things were going really well. When things were going really well, you had Funding Circle throwing money at these borrowers, you had banks, you had international banks, you had vast amounts of money sloshing around. We had quantitative easing – a lot of money being printed. If it’s being printed you’ve got to do something with it. All of that will come to an end and it’ll be much harder for borrowers to find lenders and that provides us with the opportunity and means we’re more likely to find better-quality borrowers during that period of time. And one last thing I’d like to talk about. So the restaurant, Georgina’s, that you used to run, went bust. What are the toughest lessons you learned as an entrepreneur? Nicola: Well, it’s not quite true to say that it went bust. What we did was we closed it down and we moved to a different location. Although it wasn’t called Georgina’s – we called it The Walrus Room – and it was in Battersea Rise. It’s more a bar with food rather than a restaurant. And we’ve just got a new manager to come and manage it. I’m still involved in it, but it’s a nightmare industry and I absolutely recommend that nobody should go into restaurants. I think it only works if you’re a really talented chef and it’s your restaurant. Or if you’re Pizza Express. Anything in-between doesn’t work, so just a vanity thing where you open a restaurant because you like the idea of owning a restaurant, that’s a very, very bad idea. What are the toughest parts of running [a restaurant]? Nicola: Well, the costs are just ridiculous. The rents on the high street are still ridiculously high. A unit on Georgina’s – the original unit – the annual rent was £65,000 a year. The Council Tax was £28,000 a year, I mean it’s outrageous: £28,000 a year?! Then one-sixth of your turnover goes to the VAT man, plus we had 14 employees because it was a full-service restaurant. So, we had to pay 13.8pc of the wage bill in national insurance. You’re basically in business to pay tax and rent – that’s it. And the idea that you’re going to make a profit, unless you’ve got some really big-name chef behind it, is pretty much impossible, in my view. And finally, coming slightly back to my first question, what tips do you have for entrepreneurs – or want to be entrepreneurs – starting their own business for the first time? Nicola: You need to make sure you’ve got some proper funding. A lot of people end up funding their business through credit card debt or getting loans from loan sharks, I mean that’s just absolutely not the way to do it. The Seed Enterprise Investment Scheme (SEIS) is a very, very good thing because it allows you to raise £150,000 and the people who invest can get 50pc back as long as they’re UK taxpayers. And so I think people need to put in the work at the beginning to make sure they’re raising the money before they’ve actually started the business and they shouldn’t be putting their life savings at risk and they shouldn’t be putting their money on credit cards or going to loan sharks. It’s really important to make sure that the business is financed properly from day one.  Anna: Great. Thanks ever so much for coming on the show, Nicola. Nicola: Not at all. Anna: You can find out more about Money&Co at moneyandco.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on alternative investments. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.      

Anna Jordan chats to Caprice, a supermodel turned entrepreneur. She tells us more about the struggles of the model stereotype in starting her first business and protecting your brand when you enter a licence deal.    Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles about starting a company and Government funding for small businesses.   Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Prefer to read it instead? Here's the transcript. Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Caprice Bourret, a former model turned businesswoman. You might recognise her from the front covers of Vogue and Esquire or from her appearance on Channel 4’s The Jump in 2017. She’s here to talk about moving into the business world and the experiences that came with launching her lingerie brand, By Caprice and her homeware range, By Caprice Home. Anna: Hi, Caprice. Caprice: Good morning! Anna: How are you? Caprice: I’m…OK. Anna: Nice. Right, let’s crack on. When you retired from modelling you were well-known and then you moved into the business world where you were relatively less well-known. How did you rebuild your reputation in another field? Caprice: That took quite a few years. I’m not going to paint a beautiful picture because it wasn’t. The stereotype was quite severe. I didn’t think it would be that difficult coming from being a well-known model to having credibility in the business world was difficult. But it took a lot of tenacity and I had to ascertain stockists. So, I would call up and go directly to the CEO and try it that way because with buyers I was a bit chopped liver, regardless of who I was, so I went to the CEOs. I said, “Listen, I’ve got this great idea and this great brand”, ba ba ba. And most of them – you know, when you invest in a new brand, you’re talking about a massive investment in some regards. When I started, it was a licence deal so they would invest. I know because I invested at least a half a million into a new brand, so I know it was a hard sale. And then when I started supplying myself, I didn’t have any sales so they just thought, “We’re just not going to invest – we could go with this brand and we know off the bat that we’ll make a quarter of a million in the first drop. Yeah, she gets notoriety and she gets press but we don’t get any sales traction.” So it was really really difficult initially. The stereotype worked to my advantage in a way because I did get the meetings with the CEOs or the CEOs went to the buyers and said, “Listen, you have to take this meeting.” But then it worked against me because they thought, “Oh, a model. Come on, she’s going to be here one day and out the next. Forget it – we’re not going to make this investment.” But all I needed was one stockist and I got the one stockist and then I worked at it and the sales were great. Then I went to the other stockists and said, “Listen, you can stereotype all you want but I got the sales.” So, I had to be very patient and in business it’s hard. Every time you fall down you’ve got to get back up and if you think you’re not going to fall down, then shame on you, because it happens. The ones that are successful are the ones who keep getting back up.       Anna: You must have thought about branding yourself before you retired from modelling and building it up slowly. How did you start that when you were still modelling?   Caprice: Welp, I have to tell you that when you’re in the modelling business – and not only the modelling business but when you have some notoriety behind that and you become sort of a household name – you start to believe your own bullsh*t, I have to tell you. It’s fantastic on the ego but you don’t think it’s going to end, ever. But for some reason – I think because I know what it’s like to not have enough money to eat – I know what it’s like to be really really down and out, from nothing. When I was 18, my mom said, “See ya, good luck, write me a postcard!” I had no money, it was hard. When I started building my career, it makes you a different person: it makes you a grafter, it makes you hungry, it makes you smarter. So, I knew that the modelling industry would – I was in my 30s and that’s, like, one foot in the grave regardless of how successful you are, so I knew I had to think of Plan B. So, I thought, “What will everyone buy into?” Boom: lingerie. Easy peasy. Right? So I had to think about that while I was at the top of my game because that’s when I had the power – which I did – and I initially started out with a licence deal because I didn’t know what the hell I was doing, so I let someone else take the risk. I convinced the CEO of Debenhams to do that and he did and that was a smart risk to take because I made them very very rich! Then I took the licence back and started to supply myself.         Anna: Let’s talk a bit more about the licensing. You were doing that six-year deal with Debenhams and with By Caprice Home you’ve just done a licence agreement with Sadaqat. They must’ve been totally different experiences. What kind of tips do you have for entrepreneurs who are going through that licence agreement process for the first time? Caprice: So, every deal is different. Let me explain what a licence deal is to begin with. I give them my name and they develop my brand and supply it. Boom. You get five to 12pc of sales. Now with Debenhams, they had creative control, they basically did everything and all I had to do was say, “OK, that’s pretty, yeah great”. It was pretty straightforward stuff. But with Sadaqat it’s a different kind of deal. I have creative input and control, because my name is much more established and I need to protect my name. So, it’s even more to my advantage to be more intertwined and not just to say, “Here’s my name, go get ‘em, bad boy, let’s do this.” With the Sadaqat licence deal I had to build my brand first, [they] didn’t just take me on board with this new idea. I was supplying myself for two years – and then I had the power. Then I went to Sadaqat with gold on a tray saying, “Hey, listen, after two years, we’re making money.” And they were like “Oh, oh.” They’re like the Victoria’s Secret of the home world so there were no qualms – they took it. Obviously, the contracts are iron-clad, you have to – but even with the lawyers I’m telling them what to say and what to do. I mean, you’ve got to be careful. You’re lucky if you get a good lawyer and a good standard contract but you even have to tweak the contract. You have to protect yourself, you have to protect your brand because when you enter the corporate world, they don’t have the same passion. They don’t dot their ‘i’s or cross their ‘t’s. They have more money than God. You know, even though I have a licence deal, I’m very intertwined. Every single stockist I’ve gotten myself – even with Sadaqat – but I have this monster machine. I’m still micro-managing my brand right now. And for me it was really important to go with one of the big boys because now we’re expanding to the world. I just got into Bed, Bath and Beyond, into Macy’s, I’m hoping to sign a deal with this massive conglomerate and they base themselves out of Dubai so I wouldn’t be able to expand the way I’m expanding now [without Sadaqat]. This is another thing in business: you need to know your strengths and your weaknesses. Though some people become very complacent, “Oh we’re making money, we’re making six figures, this is great”, ba ba ba, but you have to keep growing. If you stay stagnant, you will die. And I didn’t have the capability to grow my brand. I needed more people – and even though I was working 12-hour days, I’d just had two babies and they are my priority and they are my business. So, I just couldn’t do it myself and that’s why I went for a licence deal. Anna: Do you feel you were slightly taken advantage because of your lack of business experience in the early days? Caprice: If you think you’re being taken advantage of then boo-hoo on you! It’s your responsibility to go out there and to learn, so that no one ever takes advantage of you. So I’m never a victim here. I am taking full responsibility for everything that happens in my life and that’s my power and that’s what I recommend to all – especially – I’m all about the women and I’m such a supporter of women in business and women in general. Don’t ever be a victim because a lot of us play that card. Don’t do it – you lose your power. You’re not a victim – you take responsibility and you move forward. I learned every integral part of my business. I mean, I trained the people who are so-called ‘specialists’. I know how to manage my brand, I know how to market my brand, I know how to negotiate, I know about the factories. I know a lot about production – I don’t know everything about production – but it hasn’t been a detriment to me, not knowing everything about the factories. But I made it a point to educate myself and I never went to university, I’m a grafter. It’s all about Googling, researching, asking and just doing. Sort of learning from the streets, learning from your mistakes and never making them again. Anna: Has Brexit had any impact on the business? Caprice: Yes. With the exchange rate – massive. Not so much on me anymore. When I was supplying myself, it killed me. The sterling dropped so tremendously and then obviously sales were impacted. It’s tough, I’m not going to lie. Retail is tough. That’s why I need to expand to the world. Anna: I’ve read that when you started By Caprice that you made underwear and swimwear that you wanted to wear and that went wrong because sales suffered as a result. Caprice: Oh my God, everyone knows?! I know now that my personal taste, no one else likes. So I will never let my ego get involved again because I lost money. It makes me laugh with corporates, right – they spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on these marketing research groups. Just look at your sales! Look at your weekly sales and understand your customer. Anna: I understand that you were looking at the sales when you were partnered with Debenhams and that’s how you got ahead and got yourself out of the licence agreement to start supplying yourself. That’s what I do, every single week. I’m obsessed with sell-through on every single stockist and that’s how I get to know my customers. And you know what? By the way, my customer changes. It used to be so young and I catered to that. Now, maybe because I’m middle-aged, it’s getting slightly older: age 18-42. It used to be 18-30. So I have to cater to that, the designs are different – they’re a little bit more elegant, a little bit more timeless, rather than quirky and fun. Anna: Now we have more celebrity-led products, but you were among the early adopters. Caprice: I was the first one. I know Elle Macpherson was doing it but only in Australia, she hadn’t come over [to the UK], so I was one of the first ones. That’s why it was so difficult for Terry Green – he was the CEO of Debenhams – to come on-board right away because this was a new concept. It wasn’t tried and tested. He took a big leap and was hailed king of innovation as a result because we sold out in, like, two weeks. This was the initial stages in 2000, I think. That’s why I initially stopped doing a licence deal with Debenhams because I knew I wouldn’t be the flavour of the moment and they’d dump me. I had to be on top of my game and supply myself to other stockists while my name was hot, while the brand name Caprice was popular – and respected. Anna: How do you think celebrity products have evolved since the early noughties?        Caprice: You know what? It’s saturated. The market is absolutely saturated with celebrity endorsement. I think with some of the celebrities, it works for a year and they’re finished. Then they see who the hot Love Island winner is of that season and then they go with it. With my product it’s different. I actually supplied, I actually paid for the business, I’ve actually become a brand name. I’ve gone past the celebrity endorsement. This is a business.     Anna: What kind of difficulties did you face in moving away from Debenhams? Caprice: The biggest difficulty was that I was risking all my own money. In that first drop I almost lost a quarter of a million. That hurt! And then with the exchange rate – although it impacted me in 2009 – I lost over a million, just in exchange rate. I was so silly. I didn’t understand forwards, I didn’t understand how to buy currencies because remember all my factories were in China, so I was paying for everything in American dollars and then I was getting paid by my stockists in sterling. So I was constantly exchanging money and I just didn’t understand how to do it properly. I didn’t understand forwards, I didn’t understand how to hedge, I would just buy on-spot. How stupid was that? It went from 2.05 to 1.37 almost overnight. I didn’t understand it so I lost a lot of money, so I never made that mistake again. Anna: Of course, because you have to wear all the hats, as they say, when you’re a business owner but there are some things you just don’t have a natural knack for. Caprice: No, and you know what I did? I did research and there’s some great, great Government funding and you have to go and research it. And there are people out there who will help you. This country encourages small business. There’s so much help out there – it’s really, really impressive, actually.    Anna: Was it a combination of the money you made from modelling plus Government investment? Caprice: Yeah, it was my savings, which I lost a lot, so I was hurting. Yet my brand was doing really really well.  By the way, everyone, I pay all my taxes and I’ve paid a lot of taxes for the last 500 years. I have the right to access this and I was smart enough to do this, otherwise I would’ve lost my business. Anna: It can be so volatile. Caprice: Oh, you just don’t know. Not only that, I had to completely readjust my business plan. But thank goodness, one thing that was really important to me was the people who worked for me – I’m quite loyal. So, I wanted that to be the last port of call to get rid of any employees. You’re supporting families, for goodness sakes. So I was fortunate enough to keep my employees but I had to readjust my whole business plan.    Anna: What kind of adjustments did you have to make? Caprice: Well, I had to cut back, even my collections, I had to cut back. I couldn’t take any risk anymore. Before, I was buying a lot of extra stock because I knew the buying patterns of my stockists and my stockists were buying differently. They were much more cautious. And they weren’t buying enough – I knew they weren’t buying enough. So I would take that risk and I would buy deeper at my own risk. I had to stop doing that. So it did impact because I would run out of stock and that’s not good for a business as well – if you’re selling two months later then you have ‘out of stock’ all over the place, it’s a disaster, but I couldn’t take that risk anymore.   I think for people starting out, understanding cash flow, because normally when you start a business you don’t see a return for three to five years – know that. And passion – you’ve got to be obsessed with what you’re doing because you live it. Anna: Great. Well, that’s it from me unless there’s anything you’d like to add or any other wisdom. Caprice: Honey, we killed it – ten times over! Anna: Ha! Thanks for coming on the show. You can find out more about Caprice at capricebourret.com. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for entrepreneur Q&As and other advice to help you start your own business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.  

Anna Jordan chats to Penny Power OBE, an author, public speaker, mentor and business owner. She tells us how a mental breakdown led her to realise her strengths as an entrepreneur. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles about looking after mental health and wellbeing in the workplace. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case.

Anna Jordan chats to Peter Watson, managing director of social media marketing agency, Distract. He explains how he uses his personal brand to represent his business and ehy he thinks that Twitter is dead.  Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles around building a brand.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case.

Anna Jordan chats to Helena Murphy, co-founder of investment consultancy, Raising Partners. She explains how funding a previous business led to lose her hair, her tips for managing stress and common misconceptions around raising funds.  Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles around funding, stress management and social media as a business owner.   Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case.

In this episode, Anna Jordan talks to Dale Beaumont, an international speaker, author and founder of Bizversity. We discusss his first public speaking engagement as an entrepreneur and how he took what he learned to become successful today. Dale also offers up a few tips for keen speakers who want to progress. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles around public speaking.   Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk.   

In this episode, Anna Jordan chats to Lara Khalaf, a Syrian-born personal coach, executive coach and leadership trainer who works exclusively with women. She talks about her experiences of coming to the UK in her mid-twenties all the way through to launching her own business. Learn about her struggles in learning the language, dealing with stereotypes and why it’s not confidence that you really need to conquer your business goals. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles around becoming self-employed.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk.

Anna Jordan chats to Michael Rossman, co-founder of business energy switching and comparison service, EnergyBillKill. He talks about finding the right people to fund his business and what it takes to be an entrepreneur. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles around funding and pitching to potential investors.   Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case.

Anna chats to Matt Connelly, founder of I Hate Ironing, a digital laundry and dry cleaning service. He tells the story of finding the ideal head of customer care in Helen, a former colleague. He also recounts what two seasoned dry cleaners taught him about truly connecting with customers. Check out SmallBusiness.co.uk for articles on hiring your first employee and boosting staff retention. Remember to follow us on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.  

Anna Jordan chats to Simon Hill, founder of cloud-based idea management software platform, Wazoku. He covers the key pivot that helped his business and being 'adventurous with the truth' in his first corporate contract. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles around managing your cash flow, calculating ROI and reducing customer churn. 

Anna Jordan interviews Rory Mudie, CEO of Redbox Mobile PLC, an app store optimisation and search ads agency. He talks about how he grew his client base from 30 to 850 in around nine months – without sacrificing good customer service. 

Anna Jordan interviews Rafael dos Santos, founder of PR membership community, High Profile Club. He talks about the process of starting a new business all over again and his struggle with anxiety.

Here's an introduction to Small Business Snippets, the new podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. We'll be taking a look at what's coming up in the first collection of episodes which focus on the guest entrepreneurs' small business milestones.